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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES SUBJECT / SUJET: PUBLIC HEARING ON THIRD LANGUAGE AND ETHNIC PROGRAMMING / AUDIENCE PUBLIQUE SUR LA PROGRAMMATION MULTILINGUE ET À CARACTÈRE ETHNIQUE TENUE À: HELD AT: Bureau régional du CRTC à Halifax Halifax Regional Office Édifice Banque de commerce Bank of Commerce Bldg. Bureau 1007 Suite 1007 Halifax (Nouvelle-Écosse) Halifax, Nova Scotia Le 1er février 1999 February 1, 1999 tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668 Transcripts In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of Contents. However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the public hearing. Transcription Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience publique ainsi que la table des matières. Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l'audience publique. tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668 Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des télécommunications canadiennes Transcript / Transcription Public Hearing / Audience publique Third Language and Ethnic Programming / Programmation multilingue et à caractère ethnique BEFORE / DEVANT: David Colville Chairperson / Président ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS: Brien Rodger Secretary / Secrétaire Geoff Batstone / Legal Counsel / Dylan Jones Conseillers juridiques TENUE À: HELD AT: Bureau régional du CRTC à Halifax Halifax Regional Office Édifice Banque de commerce Bank of Commerce Bldg. Bureau 1007 Suite 1007 Halifax (Nouvelle-Écosse) Halifax, Nova Scotia Le 1er février 1999 February 1, 1999 tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668 ii TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES PAGE Presentation by / Présentation par: Ismail Zayid, President Arab Canadian Association of the Atlantic Provinces 5 Fiona York Director, National Campus Radio Association 10 Juan Carlos Canales-Leyton Centre for Diverse Visible Cultures 20 Arlene Van Leeuwen Metropolitan Immigrant Settlement Association 22 tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668 1 1 Halifax, Nova Scotia / (Nouvelle-Écosse) 2 --- Upon commencing on Monday, February 1, 1999 3 at 1600 / L'audience débute le lundi 1er février 4 1999 à 1600 5 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Just for the record, 6 my name is David Colville. I'm Vice-Chair, 7 Telecommunications, for the CRTC and the Regional 8 Commissioner for the Atlantic Region. 9 2 We are holding these consultations 10 for the next few days here and in Montreal, Vancouver, 11 Toronto and Winnipeg, and I guess you have just heard 12 from Dylan and Geoff that there were 60 to 70 folks 13 appearing in Vancouver and I think there are probably 14 upwards of 100 or so in Toronto. We are going to be 15 receiving written comments and accepting mail 16 submissions as well on these issues, and all the 17 submissions, both oral and written, are going to form 18 part of the record. 19 3 We started a process of reviewing all 20 of our broadcasting policies, two years ago, with 21 reviewing our policy for commercial radio and we are 22 currently nearing the end of the process of reviewing 23 our policies respecting private television in Canada. 24 We are also wanting to review the policies as they 25 relate to community and campus stations and ethnic StenoTran 2 1 broadcasting as well. 2 4 So this particular consultation is to 3 help the CRTC examine our policies and regulations that 4 originally were established in 1985, when a 5 broadcasting policy reflecting Canada's cultural and 6 linguistic diversity was issued. One of the most 7 important goals of this policy is to ensure that the 8 Canadian Broadcasting System serves the needs and 9 interests of all Canadians by reflecting their 10 ethnocultural diversity in an effective manner. 11 5 Since this policy was issued, 12 Canada's demographic profile has changed 13 considerably -- one might say dramatically, I 14 suppose -- in the last 10 years or so, and the amount 15 of third language and ethnic programming available in 16 the Canadian Broadcasting System has increased 17 substantially, although I suppose, from the perspective 18 of somebody living in Halifax, that may not be as 19 noticeable as it might be in some other parts of the 20 country. 21 6 So by looking into these issues 22 around ethnic broadcasting, we are asking: 23 7 Are the goals of the current policy 24 still valid and is the policy still effective in 25 attaining these goals? StenoTran 3 1 8 I guess following out of that is: 2 9 How better might we develop a policy 3 that reflects the multicultural nature of the country? 4 10 So we put out a Public Notice, late 5 last year, 1998-135, which set out a series of 6 questions and invited comments in response. This 7 series of consultations was set up across the country 8 to provide an opportunity for various groups and 9 individuals to come forward to the Commission and 10 present your views. So we welcome your participation 11 here today and we are interested in hearing your views. 12 11 Perhaps we could just sort of 13 informally open this up, since there is a relatively 14 small group here today, to a discussion of the issues. 15 12 As we have already indicated on the 16 phone, we have Geoff Batstone, who is our Legal Counsel 17 for the Commission for this proceeding, and here is 18 Brien Rodger. On the phone also is Dylan Jones as we 19 indicated. Dylan is also a lawyer with our Legal 20 Branch but he has been kind of heading up the staff 21 sort of policy analysis of this issue. 22 13 Brien Rodger is here from our 23 Regional Office -- a Director of our Regional Office 24 who will be the Secretary for this afternoon. Although 25 normally we get quite formal in some of these StenoTran 4 1 proceedings and have the Secretary formally call people 2 forward to the podium, I think we will treat this 3 rather informally today. 4 14 So just as I have finished my opening 5 remarks, it looks like Fiona has arrived. 6 15 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: You have to 7 repeat them now. 8 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 9 17 You must be Fiona. 10 18 MS YORK: Yes. 11 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Welcome, Fiona. 12 20 I just finished giving my opening 13 comments and Juan Carlos has just suggested that I am 14 going to have to do it all over again. But I'm not. 15 21 I just wanted to say we are going to 16 try and keep this as informal as we can. We just want 17 to provide an opportunity for parties to present their 18 views on the issue and then perhaps we can, given the 19 small nature of the group we have here today, we could 20 open it up to a discussion, if you wish. 21 22 We are transcribing this, so we do 22 have microphones around the table. So just try and 23 make sure you are speaking into a microphone whenever 24 you are speaking so that we can have a record of what 25 has gone on here today. StenoTran 5 1 23 So I think, with that, we will turn 2 it over -- I don't know whether you have sort of formal 3 presentations you wish to make. 4 24 DR. ZAYID: I have prepared a brief 5 statement. 6 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure. Okay. 7 26 DR. ZAYID: Is that acceptable? 8 27 THE CHAIRMAN: Oh yes, absolutely. 9 So perhaps then, we can turn to you, Dr. Ismail Zayid. 10 You are representing the Arab Canadian Association -- 11 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 12 28 DR. ZAYID: The Arab Canadian 13 Association of the Atlantic Provinces. This is a brief 14 on behalf of the Arab Canadian Association of the 15 Atlantic Provinces. 16 29 Ladies and gentlemen, Arab Canadians 17 like myself who immigrated to Canada came to this 18 country with pride and enthusiasm. Canada, to us, 19 represented a vision of a liberal country where we 20 could bring up our families free from oppression and 21 discrimination. 22 30 Twenty years ago, I spoke before a 23 CRTC gathering like this and documented a long factual 24 catalogue of bias and discrimination in our media that 25 was hurtful to our society and to Canada's good name StenoTran 6 1 and reputation. 2 31 Today, twenty years later, I am happy 3 to stand before you and say that the picture is 4 brighter but, alas, not without failings and blemishes. 5 32 Before delving into that area, I want 6 to say that the Arab community in our country is 7 significantly larger today and happier and we are proud 8 to continue to participate and contribute to Canada's 9 multicultural ethos. We are a proud people with a 10 unique historic civilization based on accepting from 11 and offering to others ideas and values. 12 33 We would like to preserve this 13 heritage in our children and, hence, we would like 14 access to communicate elements of our culture, history 15 and language through broadcasting media to our people. 16 34 The human being, in his relationship 17 to others, is a composite picture of varied reactions. 18 These reactions are usually integrated in the basis of 19 images and associations. Such associations are often 20 based on casually perceived impressions, which can be 21 crystallized as pleasant or unpleasant with varying 22 degrees of intensity depending on repetition and 23 susceptibility. 24 35 It is unquestionable that the young 25 are the most susceptible and impressionable. It is StenoTran 7 1 also an established fact that the visual image has the 2 greatest impact. Television, through the use of this 3 visual medium and repetition, has the most telling 4 effect on the audience, especially the children. 5 36 It is in the light of this that the 6 image of the Arab in the Canadian and U.S. media 7 becomes significant and, unfortunately, sinister. Let 8 me briefly outline only a few examples of this negative 9 image. 10 37 Today, and for decades, the Arab 11 people in the Middle East have become victims of 12 foreign occupation and, yet, these people who resist 13 this occupation are often referred to as terrorists. 14 Yet, the people who murder them, bomb their schools and 15 whatever are often called commandos or extremists but 16 never referred to as terrorists, while the Lebanese or 17 the Palestinian who is resisting an illegal occupation 18 is often referred to in the media as a terrorist. 19 38 An Israeli settler, for example, of 20 the kind of Baruch Goldstein who massacred 29 21 Palestinians during their prayer at the Ibrahimi Mosque 22 in Hebron was described as an ultranationalist. The 23 English language clearly begs for forgiveness. 24 39 On the 26th of April 1998, the CBC 25 held a "Cross Country Check-up" program on the occasion StenoTran 8 1 of Israel celebrating its 50th anniversary of its 2 creation. I called in and got through and I was asked 3 my opinion. I indicated that this celebration was at 4 the cost of the massive injustice committed against the 5 Palestinian people who were evicted from their homes 6 and 418 of their towns and villages were demolished and 7 remain to this day as refugees, while Israel continues 8 to defy international law. I was told that they would 9 call me back. The call never came. 10 40 I wrote, on the 27th of April 1998, 11 to Mr. Rex Murphy detailing this and asked why can't 12 there be a "Cross Country check-up" program on the 50th 13 anniversary of the ethnic cleansing and dispossession 14 of the Palestinian people? No reply was received. 15 41 There is currently, in circulation, a 16 Hollywood movie, "The Siege", depicting the terrorist 17 threat waged by none other but Muslims. 18 42 The Globe and Mail, a few days ago 19 only, on January 26th, I think -- you may want to see 20 that -- sums up the offensive racist stereotyping of 21 the Arabs and the Muslims in the TV media. It quotes 22 John Larroquette telling the CBS President: "The 23 moment you tell me I can't slap the small brown guy, I 24 would have to go." In the sitcom "Payne", Mo (short 25 for Mohammad) features the inept bumbling waiter, the StenoTran 9 1 butt of the hotelkeeper's abuse. Thus and in so many 2 similar situations, the Arab and the Muslim is the 3 object of ridicule and amusement. 4 43 In The Globe and Mail, it says here: 5 "But if there was a Muslim lobby monitoring U.S. TV, 6 they clearly don't have much influence." Why should a 7 vaguely Arabic character be the instinctive fallback 8 position when cheap laughs are the goal? The port of 9 the fez or whatever it is reflects the Muslim and the 10 Arab for ridicule. 11 44 On January 14, 1999 -- that's only a 12 few weeks ago -- the CTV program "Double Exposure" 13 mimicked Saddam Hussein, the Iraqi President, about 14 making chemical weapons, with a screen-size 15 intelligible page of "The Quran" -- which is the Muslim 16 Holy Book -- depicted as the manual for home-making of 17 biological weapons. 18 45 Ladies and gentlemen, this is 19 extremely offensive and repugnant and insults Islam, a 20 religion of peace and tolerance for 1.2 billion Muslims 21 throughout the world and hundreds of thousands of 22 citizens in this country. 23 46 We reject this offensive stereotyping 24 and call on all decent and self-respecting Canadians to 25 stand with us against this offensive characterization StenoTran 10 1 and stereotyping of our culture and our faith. 2 47 Thank you. 3 48 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Dr. Zayid. 4 49 I think maybe what we will do rather 5 than -- I had a few questions I wanted to pose in the 6 context of our policy but I think rather than do that, 7 I invite each of you to make your comments and then 8 maybe we can open it up for a bit of a discussion. 9 50 Juan Carlos. 10 51 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: (Off mic...) 11 52 THE CHAIRMAN: Fiona. 12 53 MS YORK: Okay. So I can just go 13 ahead and do my presentation? 14 54 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 16 55 MS YORK: It's not a formal written 17 report but I have some remarks that I have prepared. 18 56 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure. Go ahead. 19 57 MS YORK: Before I came, I don't know 20 if you had a chance to explain my position here -- if I 21 should just introduce my background. 22 58 THE CHAIRMAN: Maybe, for the record, 23 if you do that now. 24 59 MS YORK: Okay. I'm here both to 25 represent the NCRA, which is the National Campus StenoTran 11 1 Community Radio Association. I'm the Director on the 2 Board of the NCRA. So we are trying to have people 3 from the different regions who are members of the Board 4 attend the consultations to represent the Board as a 5 whole. 6 60 I am also the Station Manager of CKDU 7 here in Halifax, which is the Campus Community Station. 8 So I'm also partly -- I'm sort of thinking of CKDU in 9 my remarks. So I am representing both the NCRA and 10 CKDU in what I am talking about here. 11 61 I had about five different points 12 which may not all pertain to the comments in the 13 position paper that has been drawn up so far but I 14 think some do tie into the things that have been put 15 forward already. 16 62 One is that we feel that the 17 definitions that are currently given for what is 18 considered ethnic programming -- there are five types, 19 a) to e), that are given in the Glossary. I know that 20 the Glossary is considered sort of out of date and 21 there may be changes that are happening to that, but I 22 have gone through our programming on CKDU and 23 calculated what I consider to be ethnic programming 24 according to definitions. Our program directory is 25 also done. StenoTran 12 1 63 There was also a representative from 2 the CRTC who called me, just sort of surveying the 3 stations about a week ago. She had done the 4 calculation and all of our numbers were different. So 5 I think that, although when you read through them it 6 does look fairly clear, I think there is definitely 7 some need to clarify the definitions. 8 64 I would also say that the tie into 9 the question of the importance of the following 10 programming areas, I think that if there was going to 11 be any changes to the types of programming that are 12 considered ethnic or if any of the types were to be 13 changed or cut out, I would emphasize a) and b), which 14 means programming directed specifically to 15 ethnocultural groups, and b), programming directed 16 specifically to ethnocultural groups which pertain more 17 to their experience in Canada. 18 65 I think those would be the two areas 19 that I would emphasize and I think those are the two 20 that we tend to have more need for. We seem to have 21 more requests for that type of programming. So I would 22 say that that seems to be more important. 23 66 I should also mention -- CKCU in 24 Ottawa and CHRY in North York, Toronto, so I can kind 25 of represent a little bit of what I have seen at the StenoTran 13 1 other stations. So I think I would emphasize those 2 areas and I think there needs to be some clarity in 3 definitions. 4 67 The other point is that we feel 5 that -- the NCRA as a whole feels that, right now, the 6 maximum for a station that is not considered an ethnic 7 broadcasting station is 15 per cent out of the 8 programming week -- can fall under the five types of 9 ethnic broadcasting. There is a provision that if we 10 want to go higher, we can go up to 40 per cent if we 11 get authorization from the CRTC. 12 68 We feel strongly that it should be a 13 higher maximum than 15 per cent and that the 14 authorization process should be much easier because we 15 do have because we do have -- right now, I know that we 16 have had requests that have come into CKDU for more 17 ethnic programming. We have had to turn down requests 18 and I think that is a really big problem. 19 69 I think it's partly because of the 20 lack of the definition because when I had calculated, I 21 had some under 15 per cent. So I don't think that we 22 are at 15 per cent. I think we could have accepted 23 those shows but because of the lack of clarity, the 24 shows are being turned down, and because of the 15 per 25 cent maximum, the shows are being turned down. StenoTran 14 1 70 Those shows don't have access to any 2 other station in Halifax. There's no way that those 3 people who are making proposals would get any 4 programming anywhere else. So it's absolutely 5 essential for us to be able to have the room to accept 6 those shows. 7 71 Now, I know that there is the 8 authorization process but I think that, just given the 9 nature of the CRTC and the need for a Campus Community 10 Radio, even if it's written into the Glossary that you 11 can apply for special authorizations, 99 per cent of 12 campus community stations will not do that just because 13 there is this intimidation factor for the CRTC. 14 72 They think that -- although it's 15 written in there, they wouldn't think to ask. They 16 wouldn't think they can get it. They would think it 17 was really difficult, you know, like a five-page 18 document like our licence renewals are, where it may be 19 as simple as just writing a letter and explaining their 20 position. But stations just won't do that because they 21 are often intimidated by a process like that and 22 because it's not spelled out clearly. 23 73 So I would say, definitely, to raise 24 the maximum and to make the authorization process a lot 25 more transparent and a lot simpler for campus community StenoTran 15 1 stations. 2 74 Another area -- actually, I want to 3 go back to the clarity of the definitions. I think, as 4 a whole, we are not particularly comfortable with the 5 term "ethnic programming". "Ethnic" can apply to any 6 programs. It could be the people who are third- or 7 fourth-generation Canadian. That's an ethnicity as 8 well and it is inappropriate to call programs, when you 9 are talking about a different culture "ethnic". I just 10 am not comfortable with that term. So I would suggest 11 trying to just change the definition as a whole. 12 75 The third point is, on the shows now 13 that fall under the five categories of ethnic 14 programming, there is a lower Can Con expectation. 15 Instead of the 30 per cent that we have on all the 16 other shows, it's 7 per cent for, I think, shows 17 that -- I know that I have talked many times to the 18 programmers that we have on CKDU and I know that all of 19 them have a lot of trouble reaching that 7 per cent. 20 76 With some, it's not very difficult 21 because if the group has been here for a while, there 22 may be Arabic Canadians living in Halifax who have 23 produced something that is available on cassette that 24 they can play. But a lot of people -- like I know on 25 our Polish program, the person who hosts it plays -- StenoTran 16 1 it's not even relevant to his show. He has to just 2 pick some other music to play to fit into the Can Con. 3 77 So 7 per cent, although it is lower 4 than other areas, I think it's still difficult. So 5 there should be some extra provisions in there. 6 78 I don't know if it can be lowered to 7 0 or -- I'm not sure what to propose but I think that 8 there should be some way of providing an exception or 9 some way of lowering that just to make it easier 10 because it seems that that is a recurring problem for 11 people doing the shows. Even when they are thinking of 12 putting a proposal in, they might say, "Oh, but I have 13 to play it with Canadian Content. I don't think I can 14 do this." So it's often almost putting people off from 15 doing the shows. 16 79 I would also say -- this is sort of 17 more relevant to CKDU -- that there should be 18 provisions for regional exceptions because, in our case 19 at CKDU, there couldn't be an across-the-board increase 20 in the maximum. Instead of saying, increasing 15 per 21 cent across the country, which I think would be ideal, 22 I think there should definitely be at least regional 23 exceptions where stations in a community like in 24 Halifax -- we're almost the only station east of 25 Montreal that broadcasts any ethnic programming at all. StenoTran 17 1 80 There are a few other campus 2 community stations here. There's CHSR in Fredericton. 3 There's a couple of others in the area but they are all 4 sort of in our same circumstances. There is definitely 5 none other in the Halifax area that do any programming. 6 81 So I would think, definitely in a 7 situation like this, we should have an allowance to go 8 higher than 15 per cent just because no other stations 9 are doing it and there obviously is a need. 10 82 They would follow with other CRTC 11 policies like where -- I believe that if a community 12 station is applying for a licence in a market where 13 there is no other local programming, commercial or 14 otherwise, if the process was a little bit easier for 15 them. So I think the same thing should be considered 16 where we are providing ethnic programming in a region 17 where no one else is doing that. 18 83 I also had a couple of comments 19 pertaining to the remarks, in the document, that have 20 been put out. The question about the importance of 21 third language ethnic programming relative to the 22 importance of ethnic programming in French or English, 23 I would say, definitely, third language programming is 24 more important. So that would be the simple answer for 25 me for that question. StenoTran 18 1 84 For number 6, there's a question 2 about comparing how the policies should differ between 3 campus and community stations, for example, and 4 commercial stations. I would say here, although we do 5 feel it's very important and what I have been saying so 6 far is we want to have the right to do more ethnic 7 programming, we think it's something that we do as a 8 station, it's totally part of our mandate and it's 9 something that we would do regardless. 10 85 There is a number of areas of things 11 that the CRTC has set out as part of their mandate for 12 radio and television in Canada where we find that 13 campus community stations are taking on the bulk of the 14 responsibility, like things like local talent 15 development or local programming and multicultural 16 programming where a lot of commercial stations just 17 don't do that and we are taking on a lot of 18 responsibility. This seems, to me, to be another area 19 where we are doing more. 20 86 It's not that we don't want to do 21 more. We think that it's very important, but in answer 22 to the question about how the different programming 23 services should be changed to fulfil the needs of the 24 CRTC's multicultural policies, I think that there 25 should be provisions where commercial stations do have StenoTran 19 1 to take on a little bit more responsibility. 2 87 There are some shows that we have on 3 CKDU where they may be more appropriate on a commercial 4 station. There may be people who would be happier in a 5 more commercial format and there may be people who 6 would be happy on a community station. 7 88 So they have the choice, like any 8 other programmer, to go on whichever station they feel 9 is more appropriate to them. Right now, that doesn't 10 really happen. So I think that there should just be 11 some mechanism to increase the responsibility for other 12 stations as well. 13 89 Just one other thing that is relevant 14 to CKDU: in terms of the programming we have, we do 15 have now -- just to give an idea of the types of 16 programming we have -- we have four Arabic shows on 17 right now and they are extremely popular. Last year 18 around this time, we set aside a full day and did focus 19 programming that started at 10 a.m. and went on until 20 midnight. That was all on Arabic issues. Most of it 21 was in English. Some of it was in Arabic. We are 22 doing the same thing again this year. 23 90 Last year during the day, they had 24 about 200 phone calls coming in of people just happy 25 with the programming. I, unfortunately, don't have the StenoTran 20 1 statistics or the source for this information but at 2 the time we were putting together this show, there was 3 a press release that was written by the groups that 4 were coordinating the programming and they had said 5 that Arabic is the second most spoken language in Nova 6 Scotia. 7 91 So it's just something where we think 8 there is obviously this huge need -- there is a huge 9 response. It's very important and we are able to 10 fulfil it but we just think it should be acknowledged 11 that we are taking on this responsibility and have the 12 mechanisms to increase our ability to do this and to 13 have other stations taking on the responsibility as 14 well. 15 92 THE CHAIRMAN: Thanks, Fiona. You 16 got a lot of comments out of that little square piece 17 of paper. That's good. 18 --- Laughter / Rires 19 93 THE CHAIRMAN: Juan Carlos. 20 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 21 94 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: My name is Juan 22 Carlos Canales-Leyton and I represent the Centre for 23 Diverse Visible Cultures, a relatively new organization 24 of direct membership that concerns itself with the 25 issues of the non-native ethnic minorities in this StenoTran 21 1 area. By that, I mean non-Blacks, non-Whites and 2 non-Indian natives -- basically, immigrants of colour. 3 95 We have not had the opportunity of 4 reading the document that you are making comments from. 5 So I heard that around the 4th is the deadline. We 6 would appreciate having a copy so we can make a formal 7 extension of our small presentation here today. 8 96 Presentation to the CRTC on the 9 Licensing Process for Ethnic Media and that tells you 10 how focused we were. We just thought of the process to 11 license new outlets rather than dealing with the 12 existing ones but, of course, we make big comments on 13 the other ones as well later on. 14 97 At the Centre for Diverse Visible 15 Cultures of Nova Scotia, CDVC, we believe in full 16 participation by the members of the different 17 minorities that compose our ethnic fabric, in all the 18 activities, programs and policy-making processes that 19 will eventually affect them. 20 98 Based on the above premise, we 21 respectfully submit the following MUSTS for an 22 inclusive and responsible licensing process to any and 23 all ethnic media under the CRTC's jurisdiction: 24 99 a) Inclusiveness: Any licensing 25 process must include participation by the people who StenoTran 22 1 will end up being recipients of the products/services 2 being licensed to the successful applicant. This can 3 be achieved by direct invitation to groups such as 4 ours, who constantly look out for the betterment and 5 advancement of its constituents. We believe that a 6 managerial view and/or decision alone by the CRTC will 7 represent a concept of "for the people but without the 8 people". 9 100 b) Participation: Licensing should 10 include the obligation/commitment by the licensees to 11 allocate a percentage of their air time (one third 12 across the board, for example) to the development of 13 community-based programming. As well, there should be 14 a constant search and promotion, in partnership with 15 local community-based groups such as ours, of media 16 (would-be) personalities and/or other talents 17 (artistic, editorial, et cetera) from within the 18 minority ethnic communities. 19 101 Thank you for the opportunity to 20 present our views here today and for your attention to 21 this presentation. 22 102 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 23 103 Arlene, did you want to make any 24 comments at this time? 25 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION StenoTran 23 1 104 MS VAN LEEUWEN: Sure. 2 105 I work at MISA, Metropolitan 3 Immigrant Settlement Association. I'm speaking on 4 behalf of my co-workers. We are a staff of 25, the 5 majority of whom are refugees and immigrants. We 6 provide settlement services for newcomers. So we 7 really spend our days up to our elbows in very 8 practical survival issues. We are not media critics 9 and we also did not refer to the document that Fiona is 10 reading from. 11 106 So the comments that I am going to 12 make represent the views of newcomers to Canada and how 13 they perceive the content of Canadian broadcasting. 14 107 First of all, we are aware of what a 15 very powerful tool the media is for acculturation, 16 specifically television because of the fact that it is 17 visual. For those who still are having difficulties 18 with the language, it's the most accessible of the 19 media. 20 108 For people who find themselves, at 21 the beginning of the settlement process, quite 22 isolated, not having access to the family networks and 23 social networks that they enjoyed at home, they spend a 24 lot of time in the company of their televisions, and 25 particularly if they are unemployed or under-employed, StenoTran 24 1 the television is a very important source of 2 information -- sometimes erroneous information -- and 3 it's also a very useful instrument for learning the 4 language. People really appreciate the ability to read 5 in closed captioning narratives of the programming that 6 they see. 7 109 It's interesting -- I just would like 8 to relate a small anecdote that illustrates the kind of 9 conclusions that people may draw on the basis of what 10 they see on television. 11 110 I do a lot of home visits. We do 12 outreach as well as provide services at our street 13 address. I was visiting a young family, about three 14 years ago. They were refugees from the former 15 Yugoslavia and the young mother was spending a lot of 16 time at home. She had toddlers and she was pretty well 17 housebound. She had been in Canada for two months and 18 she was watching a lot of daytime TV, particularly talk 19 shows. 20 111 I was asking her, "What is your 21 impression of Canadian broadcasting? What is your 22 impression of Canada?" She said, "Arlene, are all 23 Canadians" -- and then she kind of searched for the 24 word and then she said -- "dysfunctional?" 25 --- Laughter / Rires StenoTran 25 1 112 MS VAN LEEUWEN: I'm sure that, in 2 Canada, we have our own unique brand of dysfunction but 3 she was basing so many of her conclusions about life in 4 her new culture on what she was seeing on television. 5 So there are all kinds of implications having to do 6 with Canadian Content there and many other things. 7 113 Anyway, at a staff meeting last week, 8 we tossed around these three statements -- or three 9 questions that the Commission is asking: 10 "To what extent does the present 11 broadcasting system adequately 12 serve Canada's ethnocultural 13 communities?" 14 114 People felt very strongly about news 15 coverage, in particular, and they had some very 16 practical suggestions. They were frustrated, as many 17 of us are, by the short attention span of the news 18 media. People who are from Central America are still 19 interested in what is happening in the reconstruction 20 work in Honduras, for example, and like so many issues, 21 it has dropped out of sight to make way for the most 22 recent disaster story. 23 115 So it's that kind of fickleness and 24 shifting focus of the media that frustrates people who 25 really want to keep in touch with what is happening in StenoTran 26 1 their countries. In general, there is a dearth of 2 international coverage unless it is of a catastrophic 3 nature: political atrocities, natural disasters, once 4 again. 5 116 They referred to what they called 6 western chauvinism in the coverage of, for example, 7 scientific breakthroughs, educational developments, 8 cultural events from other countries. It's not often 9 that we hear about things like that from other 10 countries beyond the west. 11 117 Someone from Nigeria, which is a 12 country that is truly multilingual, suggested that for 13 newcomers who are not yet literate in English, in 14 Nigeria, the public broadcasting corporation provides, 15 after the news, a verbal resume in the news in a 16 variety of perhaps eight different languages. They 17 were suggesting that this might be done in Canada as 18 well. 19 118 As a way of keeping in touch with 20 what is going on in their countries, people were saying 21 that the Internet now surpasses radio and television as 22 a tool for obtaining information. 23 119 THE CHAIRMAN: Mostly in English. 24 120 MS VAN LEEUWEN: Yes, yes. 25 121 The second question: StenoTran 27 1 "Given the demographic changes 2 that have taken place... how can 3 the needs and interests of 4 ethnocultural communities 5 continue to be served?" 6 122 I'm sorry -- the suggestion, 7 obviously, about the resume in various languages would 8 be a response to that second question. 9 123 They applaud the good work of the CBC 10 in its affirmative action hiring policies and they 11 encourage that such policies be strengthened and 12 conserved. 13 124 Also, there was the suggestion that, 14 similarly to the Canadian content quotas, perhaps there 15 could be an ethnocultural quota to programming -- a 16 very, very practical comment, once again -- on sports 17 coverage. The normal -- usually, sports coverage is 18 pretty well restricted to the three big North American 19 sports: football, baseball and hockey, and there are 20 people who would like to know about cricket and soccer 21 as well. 22 125 In response to the third question 23 about foreign product as opposed to Canadian product, 24 people stated that although they appreciate 25 ethnocultural programs that are produced in Canada, StenoTran 28 1 they would still like to be able to see programming 2 from their own countries so that they can monitor the 3 evolution of the first country culture. 4 126 They also -- I had a comment 5 specifically from a couple of African co-workers of 6 mine regarding American programming, particularly 7 sitcoms that feature African-American actors. They 8 were quick to say that one must not conclude that 9 simply because those programs feature African-American 10 actors that they at all address the concerns of African 11 immigrants or reflect the values of African immigrants. 12 127 Everyone seemed to agree that the 13 media was complicit in perpetuating stereotypes such 14 as -- and the example did come up of Middle Eastern 15 terrorists -- because of the short attention span and 16 lack of contextualization of news stories that 17 sometimes broadcasters end up perpetuating stereotypes 18 by not studying issues in more depth. 19 128 I apologize, again, for the informal 20 nature of these comments. We will consider, once we 21 have had an opportunity to peruse that document, if we 22 will accept your invitation to present something in 23 writing before March 4th. 24 129 THE CHAIRMAN: There is no need to 25 apologize for the informality. We appreciate your StenoTran 29 1 comments. 2 130 I'm just wondering whether any of the 3 others -- because a lot of those questions that you 4 mentioned and addressed, and the comments there were 5 obviously the questions that we posed in the press 6 release, but also questions that we broadly were 7 addressing in the Public Notice, although many of them 8 get a little more specific because they speak right to 9 the policies with respect to whether it's radio or 10 television and whatever. 11 131 I'm just wondering whether some of 12 the others might have comments on -- not so much on the 13 responses that Arlene made but on some of the different 14 issues that she raised. 15 132 Dr. Zayid, you mentioned a concern 16 about stereotyping in the media, particularly as it 17 addresses Arabs in the Middle East. 18 133 DR. ZAYID: Very much so. In fact, 19 this is what I was giving some examples of and I 20 appreciate my friend here reinforcing the statement. 21 There is no doubt about it that there is a tremendous 22 amount of stereotyping that goes on. 23 134 It's interesting -- you should read 24 this article in The Globe and Mail. I will leave you a 25 copy here. StenoTran 30 1 135 Literally, this says that now the 2 media dare not make mockery or fun of the Africans nor 3 the Hispanics. So then they will pick on the Arab and 4 the Muslim as a laughing stock. It gives a variety of 5 examples in this report of exactly that and this is 6 besides the point about also this question of 7 terrorism, which I stated. This is dreadful. 8 136 This goes on all the time, that Islam 9 and terrorism -- I have heard so many times, for 10 example, when Pakistan exploded the bomb, this was 11 called the Islamic bomb. Nobody ever says about the 12 Christian bomb or the Jewish bomb, no, but we have an 13 Islamic bomb. You must have heard this many times. 14 137 Islam is depicted in this fashion and 15 the Arab is -- as far as terrorism is concerned. This 16 is very offensive because the people who are involved 17 in this are people who are resisting occupation. Their 18 homes have been demolished. 19 138 I come from a village that had been 20 wiped out, completely demolished. To my shame, stands 21 today, in the ruins of my own village, what is called 22 Canada Park, paid with tax-deductible dollars -- my 23 dollars and your dollars and so on -- and nobody says 24 about this being terrorism. No, that's just Canada 25 Park. StenoTran 31 1 139 I have been speaking to the Prime 2 Minister of this country and I said, "It's a shame to 3 have Canada's name associated with an act of illegality 4 like this, to demolish whole villages. Three villages 5 are totally wiped out and people driven out, and build 6 a recreation centre called Canada Park with Canadian 7 tax-deductible dollars." But this goes unnoticed and 8 this is -- this stereotyping is offensive. 9 140 As I said, this example I gave about 10 "Double Exposure". You can laugh at Saddam Hussein and 11 do whatever -- shoot him for all I care -- but to 12 depict that Islam is the manual for making chemical 13 weapons is offensive in the extreme. I think this 14 should not be tolerated and I think this is what people 15 strongly object to. 16 141 THE CHAIRMAN: How do you think we -- 17 I mean the collective "we", not just the Commission but 18 we the Commission, the communities you represent -- you 19 all represent here -- and the broadcasters. How do you 20 think we should deal with this problem to overcome 21 these sorts of stereotypes? 22 142 DR. ZAYID: Well, I think there ought 23 to be a conscious effort of educational value through 24 the media to eliminate this stereotyping -- 25 offensive -- and also in the hierarchy of the StenoTran 32 1 broadcasting media, this should not be tolerated. 2 143 I was giving you this example of this 3 President of the CBC telling this fellow -- whatever 4 his name, John Larroquette, whatever his name is. He 5 was telling him that he must not depict -- the actual 6 original person involved in that story was a Hispanic 7 and his name was Manuel, but he said, "I can't have 8 Manuel -- a Hispanic actor." So he called him "Mo" for 9 Mohammad and he says, "That's a little brown guy which 10 you can slap around and I'm not going to be told not to 11 slap around the little brown guy." 12 144 There is obviously also a basic 13 fundamental educational process to go on and, at the 14 same time, the policy-makers should also be aware that 15 stereotyping is offensive and should not be accepted in 16 this country. As I said, literally, I, for one, came 17 to this country because I believe that this is a 18 liberal society -- small "l", mind you, society -- 19 where I can bring up my children and so on. It was 20 hurtful. 21 145 Of course, I think we are better now 22 than 20 years ago. You weren't here but 20 years ago, 23 I spoke for everybody like this. There was a lot more 24 offensive stereotyping in our media than there are 25 today. So I'm a little happier but I'm not completely StenoTran 33 1 happy about the situation today. 2 146 THE CHAIRMAN: Juan Carlos, did you 3 have any comments on that? 4 147 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Well, if I may 5 just touch on a couple of points made by the other -- 6 148 DR. ZAYID: I want to commend the 7 CKDU also for their programs. I think that is very 8 positive what the CKDU does in relation to the Arabic 9 programming. 10 149 I'm sorry about interrupted you. 11 150 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: That's quite all 12 right. 13 151 I think that of all the media in 14 Canada, the only true multicultural one is Vision TV 15 and, without any doubt, perhaps the best showcase of 16 any and all cultures that you will find in this 17 country, perhaps even in North America -- I don't know 18 about the States. 19 152 I wondered to which extent other 20 media outlets are relying on Vision doing their job for 21 them, not to do it themselves, when they should use 22 Vision as a source for production. I think that would 23 be a good work to do, to buy programming from Vision so 24 that they can show it themselves rather than from ABC 25 and NBC. StenoTran 34 1 153 A comment was made that CBC's 2 affirmative action hiring was a good thing and I'm sure 3 it is, but when I look at the photographs of my morning 4 broadcasters, I don't see any colour in the people 5 there. I don't know if that is by choice or just by 6 sheer coincidence. Just look at the photographs on the 7 promos and you will see there are no people from a race 8 other than white, and I think, in Canada, that is not 9 reflecting reality. You know that in Toronto -- 10 154 THE CHAIRMAN: To be fair, I think we 11 have a few -- like Ian Hanomansingh, for example -- 12 155 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: But he is not on 13 the morning photograph -- 14 156 THE CHAIRMAN: No, but he started 15 here in Halifax a number of years ago. Then he gets 16 promoted and moves to Vancouver. 17 157 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: I know. I have 18 noticed a lot of colouring, if you will, of the 19 broadcasters in CBC and the other people but that 20 strikes me in a very interesting manner, that here we 21 have your morning team, Brenda Starr(ph), Dave 22 Wright(ph), and all that. The first impression our 23 children will have is here are the people that bring 24 you the news. 25 158 Not long ago, CBC also brought in all StenoTran 35 1 the world -- all sorts of correspondents. There was 2 nobody for Latin America and they apologized for this 3 in the news. How many million people from Latin 4 America did not have a resident representative from the 5 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation? That was 6 outstanding, to me, particularly that I come from that 7 part of the world and I know interesting things happen 8 there. 9 159 Regarding sports, surely soccer would 10 be nice to see from places other than England and 11 Scotland and Germany which, again, it goes to the 12 anglo-saxon world. When you say western, I would 13 dispute that concept. It's not western civilization 14 that is portrayed, it's anglo-saxon and northern 15 civilization because the southern hemisphere of the 16 western world, which is where I come from, my culture 17 is not represented either. So it's not the western 18 world. It's the upper western world. So those are 19 basically the comments. 20 160 Regarding how it could change, 21 perhaps if you could look at the composition of your 22 board. Maybe the board ought to change. Maybe you 23 ought to bring more people that represent better the 24 fabric and the philosophies behind different races and 25 different peoples that are in Canada. StenoTran 36 1 161 THE CHAIRMAN: When you say "board", 2 you were looking at me but what you really mean is the 3 board of the broadcasters. 4 162 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: CRTC. 5 163 THE CHAIRMAN: All the CRTC. 6 164 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Because you 7 license. 8 165 THE CHAIRMAN: What about the boards 9 of the broadcasters? 10 166 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Surely, but they 11 are more commercial and I don't think that -- 12 167 THE CHAIRMAN: CBC is not. 13 168 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Well, CBC is the 14 exception. Everybody else is a commercial outlet. How 15 can you dictate to commercial companies to bring more 16 directors from different ethnic backgrounds? I don't 17 think you can. Now, if you can do it, surely. 18 169 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, we try and 19 encourage even the private commercial stations through 20 their licence agreements. We encourage these operators 21 to be more diverse in their management and the board. 22 170 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: I used to 23 publish the only multicultural newspaper in this city 24 up until three years ago. One of the reasons why I had 25 to stop publishing it was because the advertising StenoTran 37 1 levels by the Government of Canada dropped completely. 2 It went below the bottom. 3 171 I think that any effort in assisting 4 ethnic programming or minority ethnic programming of 5 any kind, whether hosted at a major mainstream, if you 6 will, media outlet or at a specific ethnic minority 7 outlet, has to be supported by advertising dollars from 8 the government. There is no doubt in my mind that 9 without that support they will not get the rest coming 10 along. The government dollars will bring a level of 11 backing that is absent right now. 12 172 There is a newspaper that just 13 started. I think they have put three or four issues 14 out and I am concerned that the fellow might not make 15 it. He has four ads. 16 173 THE CHAIRMAN: Here in Halifax? 17 174 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Yes, here in 18 Halifax. I'm seeing him going through exactly the same 19 steps I went through a number of years ago. 20 175 Unfortunately, although I'm 21 apolitical, the levels of funding for advertising for 22 ethnic-based media dropped with this government. As of 23 93-94, the money went out. There is no more 24 advertising and I think that's important that it be 25 restored to previous to 1993 levels because it was a StenoTran 38 1 great support of all this concern. 2 176 So those, so far, are the comments I 3 can make. 4 177 THE CHAIRMAN: We have largely talked 5 about sort of the representation or the 6 characterization or even "stereotyping" -- to use the 7 word, I guess -- of various groups on conventional 8 radio and television stations. In their normal 9 programming, largely news and sports, we have talked 10 about, your comment about Vision is interesting in that 11 Vision is essentially licensed as a religious station 12 not a network station. It's interesting that you 13 should make the comment that you find that quite 14 valuable from an ethnic point of view. 15 178 I'm wondering what your views are on 16 the notion about programs on radio and television, the 17 sort of thing that Fiona was referring to that CKDU has 18 run -- that would be programming directed to various -- 19 I'm having trouble with one term. You said we 20 shouldn't be using the term -- maybe for the sake of 21 this discussion, we can use that term until we come up 22 with something better. 23 179 I'm wondering what your views are in 24 terms of providing either on conventional, either 25 commercial or public or campus community stations, StenoTran 39 1 programming directed to various groups, whether it be 2 the Arab community or various other communities. What 3 is your view on that? Should we be trying to structure 4 the system to have more of that? 5 180 DR. ZAYID: I think so too. This is 6 the point I was making. Ny first point I was making is 7 that, in essence, I think it is an enrichment of our 8 multicultural ethos in this country to promote amongst 9 people pride in their heritage, in their language, in 10 their culture, in their history, and I think it is 11 perfectly appropriate for an opportunity through 12 broadcasting to be available for people to be directed 13 at them through other channels, through commercial 14 channels or whatever you call these channels. That 15 would be, I think, appropriate. In relation to the 16 Arab community, I think there is an attempt to do this 17 if it can be supported by the CRTC and the media. 18 181 MS VAN LEEUWEN: I think not only 19 programming that targets specific ethnic constituencies 20 but also programming like on CBC -- I'm thinking of 21 "Roots and Wings"(ph), the music program that has the 22 effect of kind of developing Canadian's general 23 cultural literacy. Newcomers really appreciate it when 24 mainstream Canadians know something about their 25 culture, obviously. StenoTran 40 1 182 So from the perspective of newcomers, 2 any kind of programming that informs and cultivates, in 3 mainstream Canadians, a taste of knowledge for 4 international culture, that's a good thing. 5 183 THE CHAIRMAN: What about programming 6 that -- and maybe this is what you were referring to -- 7 that speaks back to them about -- in their own 8 language -- both their own culture -- 9 184 DR. ZAYID: Yes, I'm not suggesting 10 to have this on a major CBC program but through special 11 channels -- a limited number of hours. I am not 12 suggesting a 24-hour program but a program directed -- 13 pretty much like the CKDU does, narrate a program for 14 an hour or whatever it is. I think more of that and 15 perhaps on a wider context than the CKDU does. 16 185 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 17 186 Fiona, you mentioned that -- in 18 particular, you mentioned the Arabic programming that 19 you have done. Is that sort of a once-a-year... 20 187 MS YORK: No, we have four shows that 21 run weekly right now. The one that I was talking about 22 was a special day. Sometimes, we will take aside a day 23 and focus on a certain issue. So we did that for the 24 first time last year. There was a whole day set aside. 25 It was all talking about different Arabic issues. StenoTran 41 1 188 But we do have four shows that run on 2 a weekly basis that are -- one is two hours and the 3 others are an hour and a half each. So we have about 4 six hours of Arabic programming in total. 5 189 In answer to the question of whether 6 commercial stations should be encouraged to do ethnic 7 programming as well, I think that just thinking about 8 how much we are able to do on our tiny budget and our 9 really limited resources, just thinking about what the 10 programmers can do, I think, there's so much already on 11 CKDU, with the very little we have. If they had those 12 resources of another station, they would just be 13 incredible. 14 190 I think we are very lucky that we 15 just happen to have people who are really committed and 16 motivated and do excellent programming, regardless of 17 the limited resources, but if they had access to better 18 news sources or sports information or just so many 19 other things they can do, it would just be unlimited 20 how much better it could be -- the potential that there 21 could be and also just because we are only 50 watts. 22 It doesn't get very far. So there would be so much 23 more potential. 24 191 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: That's the 25 problem. I can never catch them. I hear all these StenoTran 42 1 good things about them and I can never listen to them. 2 I don't know if it's by licensing or just inherent 3 capacity of your station, but if they have such good 4 programming, they should be available to the rest of 5 the community at large. I think that adding three 0's 6 to your emissions at least -- just go for it, if you 7 can. 8 192 MS YORK: We're working on it. 9 193 MR. RODGER: Fiona, you mentioned 10 that 15 per cent is not enough. Have you thought about 11 what would be a reasonable level? 12 194 MS YORK: Well, I guess maybe if you 13 remove the two tiers, like now, it's 15 per cent and 14 then with authorization, up to 40 per cent. Maybe if 15 you just remove the special authorization and just say, 16 "up to 40 per cent", I think that might be better. 17 195 I don't want to speak on behalf of 18 the NCRA because we haven't really discussed it and I 19 don't want to put forward something and then maybe that 20 is not what we would agree on as a group. But I think 21 that would be more reasonable than 15. 22 196 THE CHAIRMAN: You are somewhat 23 familiar, obviously, with the radio business here in 24 Halifax, at least from sort of a non-profit point of 25 view, not that ethnic stations are necessarily StenoTran 43 1 non-profit but we have a market here that doesn't have 2 an ethnic station. What would your view be on whether 3 or not this market could support one? 4 197 MS YORK: I guess it would depend on 5 the type, like commercial or community, because then 6 there would be different needs and different budgeting. 7 198 I think that probably the market is 8 close to being able to support that type of station on 9 a smaller scale, perhaps like a smaller station or -- 10 sometimes when community stations start, they are not 11 necessarily 24 hours, so perhaps on a more limited time 12 of day to start with and gradually increasing. But I 13 can see definitely the support for that. I think that 14 that could work. 15 199 THE CHAIRMAN: When you mentioned 16 earlier about the -- you have had to turn down some of 17 the requests for programming. How many different 18 cultural groups do you think that CKDU could do a good 19 job of serving in this community, if you had the 20 flexibility and the regulations to be able to do it? 21 200 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Are you speaking 22 of languages or cultures in the broader sense? 23 201 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes -- all of the 24 above. 25 202 MS YORK: Right now, there's 19 StenoTran 44 1 hours, which is under 15 per cent, and that's maybe 2 like 12 to 15 shows. So if it was higher, it would be 3 like 30-35 different programs. Right now, there's some 4 overlap, like there's four Arabic shows, but if it was 5 one show per one group, then that would be 30-40 6 groups, I guess. 7 203 THE CHAIRMAN: Based on the kinds of 8 requests that you get, what do you expect you would 9 have? 10 204 MS YORK: If we did have a higher 11 limit? 12 205 THE CHAIRMAN: In terms of the number 13 of different groups. 14 206 MS YORK: It would go up gradually 15 and there are, obviously, other domains that we have to 16 sort of bring necessarily. It would all be -- each one 17 is considered case-by-case but I would say if there was 18 a change this year, there are probably three that we 19 would add this year. 20 207 THE CHAIRMAN: What would those three 21 be? 22 208 MS YORK: One was Chinese and -- I'm 23 not sure what the other ones were, I'm sorry. 24 209 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you want to make a 25 comment here, Juan Carlos? StenoTran 45 1 210 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Yes. I think 2 returning to the university radio but also with 3 community television -- 4 211 But allow me to go back to your 5 previous statement that there is no commercial ethnic 6 radio stations available in town. I understand that 7 CHIN is available through cable, that whoever was to 8 buy a little adaptor can listen to CHIN radio station 9 through their cable connections -- and please don't 10 take this as a -- 11 212 MS PARSONS: I know we service FM. 12 213 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Huh? 13 214 MS PARSONS: I know we have FM radio 14 stations but I don't know which exactly. 15 215 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: CHIN, yes. It 16 does come. 17 216 THE CHAIRMAN: Is CHIN one of the 18 CANCOM? 19 217 MR. RODGER: Yes, and as a matter of 20 fact, it's on -- I know it's on Expressview. I'm not 21 sure whether it's on Star Choice -- 22 218 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: I never heard 23 it. I'm sorry. My brother works there but he tells me 24 all these things. You can go and install this thing. 25 It costs you 50 cents. I can get you the programs on StenoTran 46 1 the Internet and you can determine when you can listen 2 to Spanish -- 3 219 THE CHAIRMAN: The Internet is not on 4 the cable system? 5 220 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: No, the Internet 6 for the programming of CHIN radio. They have the 7 programming profiles on the Internet and then you can 8 find out when you can listen to your specific program. 9 221 But I go back a few years and there 10 were community programs -- and please don't take this 11 wrongly -- in Dartmouth for the Multicultural Council 12 of Halifax-Dartmouth. Eventually, there was an 13 apparent power struggle between staff at the cable 14 station and the people from the Multicultural Council 15 who were in charge of the production. 16 222 The clash came in the way of "I'm in 17 charge and I will put on whatever I decide." And that 18 is not a true community cooperation. So the end result 19 is there is no more Multicultural Council programming 20 to the level that it was 10 years ago. Yet, the 21 population is larger. The ethnic minority population 22 is larger. 23 223 So there was a -- that's why we 24 included this concept of any licensing tool of 25 programming should include participation by the groups StenoTran 47 1 that will be end users or listeners or viewers of any 2 of these programs -- hands-on. Otherwise, it cannot be 3 done for them without that -- in Toronto perhaps, maybe 4 in Vancouver, but here, no. Not here. 5 224 The local media does not have the 6 know-how to deal with the communities that it serves 7 and I would like to have the opportunity to demonstrate 8 the point, at a later date, with the media at large. 9 225 THE CHAIRMAN: So given that, how do 10 you think we should, again, collectively work to 11 overcome that problem? 12 226 Before you answer, it's true, I 13 guess, that when the Commission first established the 14 community channel policy back in the early seventies 15 that the idea of -- the spirit of it at least behind 16 the original establishment was that the cable operator 17 would provide the equipment, the community groups would 18 come into the studio, the cable operator would provide 19 training on how to use the equipment and so on, and 20 then, the community groups themselves would put the 21 programming together. 22 227 I think it's probably fair to say 23 that over the years, for a number of reasons, we have 24 gravitated away from that. It may well have been a 25 clash of personalities but I don't think it's unique StenoTran 48 1 here. I think it's true, right across the country, 2 that the cable operators have gradually become -- how 3 shall I say? -- more professional. That's not a 4 pejorative term, in this case, in terms of putting 5 together programming. 6 228 MS PARSONS: Well, yeah. 7 229 THE CHAIRMAN: But it's also true 8 that, in many cases, it's difficult to get people from 9 the community to come in and put together their 10 program. So for whatever reason, that has changed over 11 time. 12 230 Do you want to make a comment? 13 231 MS PARSONS: If I could just speak to 14 that. I don't recall that happening, that specific "We 15 decide what goes on so we're not the only show". 16 232 I know that when the regulations were 17 starting to change -- a lot of community cable stations 18 across the country are experiencing it now -- it's the 19 fact that they have to realize that in order to survive 20 as a community channel they have to become more of a 21 value-added service and in doing so, you have to instil 22 certain regulations in terms of programming, 23 programming development, et cetera. 24 233 If I recall specifically, there was 25 some problems around the actual, I guess, production StenoTran 49 1 elements or production value of programs that leave it 2 to the end of the program. As with every program, 3 there are reasons why and why not programs get 4 cancelled. 5 234 We still do multi-ethnic programming. 6 However, we don't necessarily do programming with the 7 Multicultural Halifax-Dartmouth forum. But we still do 8 it and we don't deny it based on the fact that it was 9 that association that decided not to do monthly 10 programming anymore and that was it. You can't cancel 11 programming without a justifiable reason. So I can't 12 remember -- I could look in my file but I don't think 13 it really happened that way. 14 235 On community television, just 15 listening to some of the conversations, I find that 16 community television could be a very viable tool to use 17 by numerous groups, specifically what you were speaking 18 to in terms of informing people in our community about 19 what is going on where they come from. That would 20 speak to relaxing the Foreign Content in community 21 television where only 40 per cent of our programming 22 can be of Foreign Content, in terms of actual radio 23 footage. 24 236 We wouldn't have the resources, 25 obviously, available to make it possible to produce StenoTran 50 1 programming from many varieties of ethnic 2 organizations. We just don't have the people power to 3 do it but that might be something to consider as well. 4 237 We do a Greek program right now, in 5 which they do do a newscast in Greek and they also 6 include in that some video from Greece. But it is only 7 a portion of the program. So there is the intensive 8 production requirements in terms of producing the 9 program. But that's something that -- just enlisting 10 might be a consideration that the Commission might 11 consider looking at that, the 40 per cent, the 40-60 12 split -- maybe consider relaxing it for programming -- 13 238 THE CHAIRMAN: I guess the concern 14 that we might have -- and not to say we would be 15 opposed to it -- it's just a consideration on how one 16 would structure this sort of thing is that the more 17 relaxed you get on foreign programming for a community 18 channel, the less community-oriented you may become. 19 239 MS PARSONS: Well, I could speak 20 specifically to the communities that -- each 21 representative. For example, in Halifax, if you're 22 going to do an Arabic program, for example. There is a 23 huge population who would benefit from it. Maybe you 24 can speak to it that way, in terms of what the 25 demographics are in the communities that their channels StenoTran 51 1 are servicing. 2 240 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: What is 3 "foreign" as per the definition of the Commission? Is 4 languages in "foreign"? Would that apply in Toronto, 5 for example? 6 241 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I guess it could 7 be language or where the program is produced. I was 8 going to ask you about that actually, about what your 9 views would be about programming that was produced 10 elsewhere, targeted to various ethnic communities as 11 opposed to programming produced here in Canada. Do you 12 have any thoughts on that? 13 242 DR. ZAYID: Well, it's an easier way 14 of getting programs directed at people in these 15 communities. I think there ought to be an option like 16 this that is possible and obviously within certain 17 regulations. 18 243 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: I think that 19 Canadian-produced programming should have a priority 20 over any other program. I think that the only reason 21 why we are around the table is because of Canada and 22 Canadians, not because (off mic) on Canada. We happen 23 to come from different parts of the world, many of us, 24 and what we want to do is to be a mirror that will 25 reflect our original culture, the language, where we're StenoTran 52 1 living, whichever it may be, to the rest of the common 2 people of the country. But it should not be that I 3 want to isolate myself and I would just become 4 Spanish-speaking only. That would be erroneous. 5 244 THE CHAIRMAN: That's a bit of a 6 problem, I think, that we have had in understanding 7 these issues, about to what extent do we take that 8 approach as opposed to providing programming from the 9 homeland, if you will, for various ethnic groups, just 10 for them to sort of keep in touch. But that speaks to 11 the question about providing either that programming on 12 domestic Canadian services or adding some of those 13 services. 14 245 We have what we call the eligible 15 satellite list where we allow the cable operators to 16 choose from a list of satellite signals. Largely, they 17 are American signals which end up being the specialty 18 services, you know, Arts and Entertainment and these. 19 But we also have a number of -- there's a Portuguese 20 channel and so on that are available for cable 21 operators to pick up should they choose to do so. 22 246 Now in many markets, the size of the 23 number of households in the community just may not 24 warrant them, given the relatively limited channel 25 capacity to add that service on the list. But there StenoTran 53 1 are a number of options there in terms of foreign 2 programming. 3 247 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: If I just might, 4 just before you speak -- this is an excellent program, 5 in my view, on the CBC, which is about the Pacific Rim, 6 and there is an excellent way of presenting the world 7 to Canadians who may be from that part of the world. 8 It gives them a quick update. It goes through many 9 countries in the 30 minutes that it usually lasts and 10 it informs you. 11 248 At first, I wanted to watch it 12 because of the name. To me, "In Pacific Rim" was all 13 about economics and money. I saw it once and I said, 14 well, this is not what the impression gives. But that 15 is a Canadian-produced show that gives a vision of the 16 world, that has footage from the rest of the world, 17 yet, it maintains its Canadian perspective. I'm sorry 18 for jumping ahead of you. 19 249 MS VAN LEEUWEN: It was interesting 20 when we discussed, at work, this third question about: 21 "Should there be a priority on 22 the development of Canadian... 23 rather than importing foreign 24 services?" 25 250 I guess one thing that the different StenoTran 54 1 immigrant populations bring to mainstream Canadian life 2 that is so stimulating is a fresh perspective and 3 providing mainstream Canadians with an opportunity to 4 question some of the things that we take for granted 5 about our own culture. At my workplace, we interpreted 6 "foreign" as "American". I must be talking about 7 things made in the United States. 8 251 THE CHAIRMAN: Actually, in this 9 context, we probably talk about everything but 10 American. 11 252 MS VAN LEEUWEN: But that is a point 12 I would like to make which relates back to the anecdote 13 that I related earlier. 14 253 THE CHAIRMAN: I am wondering too, in 15 the context of the other comment that you made about -- 16 I think it was you that made the comment about the 17 hurricane in Honduras and how typically the commercial 18 or even the public broadcaster will cover that story on 19 the day or depending on how big the disaster is for 20 maybe the next few days and then it's gone. I wonder 21 if it's reasonable to expect that a Canadian 22 broadcaster would continue to cover that kind of a 23 story as opposed to picking up the Latin American 24 service or whatever it is -- 25 254 MS VAN LEEUWEN: Well certainly, StenoTran 55 1 these are very general critiques that one could make. 2 I'm not sure, necessarily, looking at ethnocultural -- 3 255 THE CHAIRMAN: M'hm. But I guess my 4 comment back is "Soon". I think your critique is a 5 good one, is how best would one go about resolving 6 taking up issues like that and having more thorough 7 coverage of -- I think in the case of the Arab 8 situation, we just don't get enough coverage, it seems 9 to me, about understanding -- 10 256 DR. ZAYID: Yes, that's basically the 11 problem. I can't repeat it often enough: this 12 offensive stereotyping must stop. 13 257 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Just to give you 14 an idea, language-wise, you tell me, a news report that 15 does not have the war gone into a crusade. You tell me 16 what the crusades were about, if not killing Muslims 17 and taking land back from Muslims. I mentioned this to 18 a professor of journalism not long ago and he promised 19 never to use the word in that context ever again -- 20 pardon the redundancy. 21 258 But that goes -- in the common 22 language, we accept these things as -- or is the 23 make-up something -- why use a religious symbol as a 24 source of where everybody goes to for business, for 25 entertainment, for whatever. Language has a lot to do StenoTran 56 1 with work. 2 259 But you were focusing mostly on news 3 items when you were saying about sourcing from other 4 countries. 5 260 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I was just using 6 it as an example because Arlene mentioned the issue 7 about people here who may be from Honduras would still 8 want to know what is happening back home, in terms of 9 the rebuilding and so on. Now, I don't know whether 10 it's reasonable to expect that the Canadian 11 broadcasters are going to continue to cover that story 12 when there are lots of other stories that are happening 13 in the meantime or whether, somehow or other, one plugs 14 into the news service from... 15 261 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: I personally see 16 no problem with seeing news from other -- that 17 originate in other countries. We see BBC running now 18 through the CBC. They have a special broadcast 19 regularly -- not a special -- regular broadcasts that 20 we get to see a different perspective of the world, 21 which is not necessarily the Canadian perspective. Of 22 course, we have CNN there, at every moment. 23 262 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I was on a panel 24 recently -- I would say this is kind of an interesting 25 anecdote -- I was on a panel recently with the guy who StenoTran 57 1 runs CNN International and I said to him, "I find it 2 somewhat curious that in Canada we don't get CNN 3 International. We get the domestic CNN." 4 263 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: It's a domestic 5 market, yes. 6 264 THE CHAIRMAN: His comment was -- he 7 is actually originally from Britain and his comment was 8 that it would annoy him too because CNN is actually 9 finding that, as the CNN service goes throughout the 10 world, you cannot have a CNN International service. 11 You have to take CNN and tailor it to the market in 12 China, the market in India, the market -- probably not 13 even in South America -- the market in Brazil or... 14 265 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: They have, they 15 have. 16 266 THE CHAIRMAN: I know they do but 17 what he is finding now is if you really want to sell 18 that service in different markets, you have to tailor 19 the service to serve the needs of that market and you 20 can't just throw up a single CNN International 21 throughout the world and have it be popular in each 22 market as people simply can't relate to it unless it 23 addresses their concerns. 24 267 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: The CNN 25 experience, if it were applicable to Canada, I think StenoTran 58 1 that CBC International or whatever is left of it, it 2 could become a second -- I mean, CBC International 3 could become -- if it were to follow the steps of CNN, 4 it could perhaps go beyond what CNN has accomplished: 5 number one, accepted around the world is better of 6 Canada than of the United States; number two, the view 7 of Canadians are necessarily not as aggressive as the 8 Americans. 9 268 We are seen -- we as a Canadian 10 society -- more unbiased, as the Americans would be, 11 and we have all this multicultural ethno-minority 12 resources that we can tap from and give them the view 13 that they are expecting to see, but from here. 14 269 It was tried with the radio. Why 15 could it not be done with other resources, in all this 16 programming that I am suggesting, not necessarily the 17 news only? It could be cultural, general. What does a 18 Chilean fellow do in Halifax? Go back to Chile? I am 19 sure they will be interested. They would want to know 20 what is going on. 21 270 I saw a show on an American channel 22 of -- I think it was Peruvians around the world. It 23 was produced -- telling the story of different 24 Peruvians in Africa, in the States, et cetera, et 25 cetera. It was produced here and it had great StenoTran 59 1 acceptance, I understand, in Peru and in most 2 Spanish-speaking countries. 3 271 So I think that we could export this 4 cultural aspect of ours. Why we're not doing it I 5 don't know. Maybe we need more people pro-CBC and 6 other networks in those countries or in those regions 7 of the world so that we could have a better sense of 8 what we could be exporting. 9 272 THE CHAIRMAN: We may have covered 10 this off indirectly but the programming that's on radio 11 or television -- and television includes cable -- I 12 would take it, given from the discussion that we have 13 had, you would argue it should be mostly in English or 14 French, depending on the market, not in the language 15 that is... 16 273 DR. ZAYID: Well, I think it ought to 17 be a bit of both. For the young people, the idea of 18 maintaining a link to their ethnic language, I think, 19 would be useful and I think that would be -- but it 20 ought not to be the dominant component. I think a 21 component of a language, for example, in the Arabic 22 program would be very useful for people. 23 274 THE CHAIRMAN: But not dominant. 24 275 DR. ZAYID: No. 25 276 THE CHAIRMAN: Fiona, the work that StenoTran 60 1 you have been doing, is that largely English or is it 2 all English? 3 277 MS YORK: A lot is in English. There 4 are four shows. One is all Arabic -- two are all 5 Arabic; one is actually mostly English; and one is 6 mostly Arabic. Three of them are done by students -- 7 so the younger people -- and some do actually feel 8 strongly that it's important to have a lot of Arabic 9 content and make a point of doing that. 10 278 So even the younger people, in some 11 cases, they feel that having the Arabic content is 12 important, but they also see the validity of the 13 English not only because they are seeing that other 14 people may not understand the Arabic but other people 15 that may not speak Arabic can get something from it. 16 279 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: There is one 17 danger with multi-language programming, in my view, and 18 that is if we do not screen the broadcasters through 19 their own peers, we may end up with people who are all 20 slang-talking being broadcasters and ultimately to be 21 the ones who are teaching our youth. But I think that 22 gives validity to the point we make in that any efforts 23 of this nature should be in conjunction, in 24 cooperation, and in partnership with the recognized 25 groups. StenoTran 61 1 280 So among many, you can determine the 2 ones who speak best or write better. I would hate to 3 see some of the people I know who speak Spanish write 4 for a newspaper in Spanish. I would just kill myself 5 looking at their spelling and the construction of their 6 language. 7 281 So if we are talking about 8 preservation and availability of the actual language, 9 it should be based on the fact that the people who are 10 commonly known to be the ones who speak it properly and 11 write it properly, are the ones who actually get to do 12 it. 13 282 THE CHAIRMAN: I guess that would be 14 the case of the broadcasters working with community 15 groups such as yours in order to try and establish that 16 because -- 17 283 DR. ZAYID: Yes, and selecting, 18 obviously, appropriate programs in the proper language. 19 I think that's possible. That is not beyond achieving. 20 284 THE CHAIRMAN: Arlene. 21 285 MS VAN LEEUWEN: Fiona, may I ask 22 you, the so-called ethnic Arabic programs that you do: 23 Do you have a public education interest one? 24 286 MS YORK: It's more, I think, for the 25 groups themselves. I think usually the idea is more StenoTran 62 1 that it's people from the groups providing programming 2 for other people in their communities but there is just 3 the offshoot, I think. Even if it's not in English, I 4 think just the fact that people tune in and hear shows 5 that are in different languages makes -- you know, 6 there is sort of an acknowledgement or there is a 7 purpose in that too. 8 287 There are a few shows which are, I 9 think, like you have mentioned, shows where there is 10 just a variety of music from different cultures. So it 11 kind of helps. 12 288 I actually think that if there was 13 any change in the definition of ethnic programming -- 14 that is now considered type e) but it's not included in 15 the 15 per cent maximum -- I think, if anything, that 16 should probably -- I think it's very useful and helpful 17 but I would think it should not be included because I 18 don't feel they see that as the same type of thing. 19 289 But our main purpose, I think, is to 20 provide an outlet for the community to provide 21 programming for other people in the community as 22 opposed to for public education, although that is 23 important and helpful as well. 24 290 MS VAN LEEUWEN: (Off mic...) 25 291 DR. ZAYID: But the programs in StenoTran 63 1 English are very useful educationally and they are 2 accessible to the community at large. I mean our 3 thoughts went into some of these programs and people 4 have commented about them and they are informational 5 and educational. 6 292 THE CHAIRMAN: Fiona, you expressed a 7 concern about having trouble meeting the Canadian 8 Content. Was that Canadian Content overall or was it 9 in the ethnic programs? 10 293 MS YORK: It was in the ethnic 11 programs. 12 294 THE CHAIRMAN: And what would you 13 suggest we do about that? 14 295 MS YORK: Well, I would think lower 15 it from the 7 per cent it is now but I don't have 16 another number to suggest. I don't necessarily mean to 17 go so far as to say it shouldn't exist at all but that 18 it should be lowered. 19 296 THE CHAIRMAN: Is this more a 20 question of interpretation of what it is because we 21 talked a little bit about -- it seems to me the views 22 around the table here have largely seemed to be that 23 the programming, for the most part, should be 24 programming that is produced here. So where do you 25 fall down on not meeting the -- StenoTran 64 1 297 MS YORK: Well, the music that's 2 included for Canadian Content, it is often hard, I 3 would say, for an Arabic group to find music that fits 4 the Canadian Content that is also appropriate to the 5 show because there is not a lot of Arabic music that is 6 being produced here that they have access to, that they 7 can play to meet the 7 per cent, and if they do, they 8 are playing the same thing every week, just to make 9 their 7 per cent. So it makes it kind of hard and 10 there's no Polish music that can be found. 11 298 I guess another option would be 12 either to lower it or to provide an innate mechanism 13 where we can write to ask for an exception for a 14 certain show where it's just not possible for that 15 community. There might be somewhere -- it's like 16 fourth or fifth generation where it is impossible to 17 find things that are being produced in Canada that are 18 appropriate to that show. 19 299 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you think we even 20 should be concerned about it within ethnic programming? 21 300 MS YORK: Well, that's another 22 option. Maybe it could just not exist. 23 301 DR. ZAYID: Just out of ignorance, is 24 this foreign component related to the entire program or 25 just to the particular -- say we did an ethnic program, StenoTran 65 1 does that -- is there a requirement in that program 2 that so much be Canadian Content or is it the whole 3 program at CKDU, for example, or whatever? 4 302 MS YORK: Within a show, if it's an 5 hour and a half show, if it's an Arabic show, they 6 would have to be 7 per cent of the music played within 7 that show -- 8 303 DR. ZAYID: Of that show. 9 304 MS YORK: -- that would have to be 10 Canadian Content. 11 305 THE CHAIRMAN: If it's a music show. 12 306 MS YORK: Yes. 13 307 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: So if we watch 14 TV, then they could lip sync and they would fulfil the 15 7 per cent, would they not? 16 --- Laughter / Rires 17 308 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: It is very 18 common. No, no, no, please. It's a very common 19 practice in the music. That's what they do. They 20 don't sing themselves. They lip sync. So TV is better 21 prepared to meet the quota than radio, from that 22 perspective -- musically speaking. 23 309 MS YORK: I guess so. 24 310 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Interesting. 25 311 THE CHAIRMAN: Dylan, are you still StenoTran 66 1 there? 2 312 MR. JONES: Yes. 3 313 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you have any 4 comments on the discussion we have heard so far or do 5 you have any questions you would like to pose? 6 314 MR. JONES: Well, first of all, it's 7 not by show for Canadian -- for musical collections. 8 During the ethnic programming period for the broadcast 9 week, 7 per cent of the musical selections have to be 10 Canadian. 11 315 In any case, we are listening and it 12 has been a very interesting discussion and we are 13 taking it in and what not, but just for the record. 14 316 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you have any 15 other -- of the issues that we have been trying to 16 cover off, both in the Public Notice or just in the 17 consultations here, are there any other issues you 18 would like to pose any questions on while we're here? 19 317 MR. BATSTONE: Well, one of the ideas 20 that the CRTC have been sort of discussing around has 21 been -- this is Geoff, by the way. I forgot to 22 identify myself -- 23 318 THE CHAIRMAN: That's okay. I did. 24 319 MR. BATSTONE: -- has been some sort 25 of national register of musical selections which would StenoTran 67 1 facilitate a higher level of Canadian Content because 2 people in one area of Canada would perhaps be more 3 aware of what is being produced in other areas of 4 Canada but which might not be available on a national 5 basis. I wondered if maybe anybody had any comments 6 about that. 7 320 Is it the lack of local availability 8 of ethnic musical selection or is it not knowing about 9 Canadian ethnic musical selections, given that a lot of 10 them are locally sourced? I wonder if Fiona could 11 comment on that. 12 321 MS YORK: Do you mean are we having 13 trouble finding locally produced music that fits or 14 Canadian? 15 322 MR. BATSTONE: No, what I mean is, is 16 the difficulty that you can't -- is the issue one of 17 the availability of Canadian ethnic music or is it just 18 sort of finding it? 19 323 MS YORK: I think it's both. I would 20 say it's both because the programmers are generally 21 pretty knowledgeable about the material and we 22 encourage them as well if they know of something that 23 would fit on their show to let us know so we can try to 24 get that for them and often it's just not -- either 25 way, it can't be found and it's not known to exist. StenoTran 68 1 324 MR. BATSTONE: Well, in the context 2 of the discussion about other types of programming and 3 finding the appropriate balance between Canadian 4 Content and Foreign Content, do some of those issues 5 apply in the context of music that we -- should the 6 Commission be concerned and, indeed, others -- the 7 David Colville "we" -- should we be concerned about 8 promoting and encouraging the ethnic musical industry 9 in Canada? Is it important to promote knowledge about 10 the distribution of, indeed, the production of Canadian 11 ethnic music? 12 325 MS YORK: I think that would be 13 helpful but I think that putting a minimum percentage 14 on, whether it's across the board or on a certain show, 15 isn't necessarily the way to do it because I think then 16 it's just an issue of acceptability and people being 17 intimidated about doing a show because they can't find 18 that material. 19 326 THE CHAIRMAN: How important do you 20 think music is relative to other types of programming 21 that we might have addressing a lot of these concerns? 22 327 DR. ZAYID: I would consider it's 23 only a component and not the most important component. 24 328 THE CHAIRMAN: Relatively minor? 25 329 DR. ZAYID: Yes, I would say so. StenoTran 69 1 330 THE CHAIRMAN: Arlene. 2 331 MS VAN LEEUWEN: That's not what was 3 expressed certainly by my co-workers. They were 4 concerned with news coverage, just keeping in touch 5 with their country, what is happening in their country. 6 332 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Would that be 7 because they are concentrating -- are they going to the 8 media to obtain news rather than for entertainment 9 only? 10 333 MS VAN LEEUWEN: Yes. 11 334 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: I remember I 12 came packed with LPs, when I came to Canada in 78, to 13 listen to my music. I anticipated I would not be able 14 to find it here but I think the university reality will 15 be far different from that of -- that music will be an 16 important component. I know from two teenagers who are 17 going to university who expressed a big desire for 18 music. 19 335 MS YORK: I would say just given the 20 stations where I have worked and what I have seen, I 21 think that a lot of the cultural shows are not 22 necessarily reflecting university students. It's 23 often -- I have seen a total diversity in age groups of 24 the people sitting together and I think that the 25 reason -- all of the ones I have seen pretty much fit StenoTran 70 1 partly as they can impart spoken words. 2 336 I think it's just because if there is 3 going to be, for instance, an Asian show on a station, 4 it's most likely the only Asian show in that city. So 5 they are going to have -- they have to do everything in 6 that show. So they have to do music and they have to 7 do spoken words. So it ends up that they play music 8 and they have news and information because there is 9 just no other outlet. So they have to cover 10 everything. 11 337 Now, I don't -- this is a question. 12 I'm not sure if this is the case. If a show -- would a 13 show like that that has both music and spoken word be 14 considered -- say if it was 50 per cent music and 50 15 per cent spoken word, could it fit under a different 16 category where it wasn't a music show so there was no 17 minimum Can Con? 18 338 If they played 40 per cent music and 19 the rest was spoken word, if there is a mechanism -- if 20 it doesn't already exist, I'm not sure -- if there is a 21 mechanism where you could say, "Well, this is a 22 cultural show. We just need our music -- no spoken 23 word." 24 339 Therefore, they have no Can Con 25 quotient, whereas if it was an Arabic show, if we had StenoTran 71 1 unlimited numbers of Arabic shows, we could have one 2 that is all devoted to music. That could be the music 3 cultural show and that could have a minimum Can Con 4 percentage but the other ones, or in cases where 5 there's only one show for a certain group, it would be 6 considered exempt because they're not primarily music 7 and have no Can Con requirement, is that -- 8 340 THE CHAIRMAN: My easy answer to that 9 is that sounds like an interesting proposal. Dylan, do 10 you want to comment on that? 11 341 MR. JONES: I like your answer. 12 --- Laughter / Rires 13 342 MR. JONES: I'm thinking of one other 14 question and it's not specific to radio, although it 15 arises from the point about CHIN's distribution in 16 Halifax. We have been talking, in discussion, about 17 the balance between Canadian national programming and 18 foreign programming. 19 343 Now, one of the things that is 20 obvious about CHIN being distributed in the Halifax 21 region is it raises the question of the balance 22 between -- that's the case where you have, in Toronto, 23 (off mic) being available in a region. How important 24 is that? 25 344 Is it essential that there be local StenoTran 72 1 production in Halifax relating to the community in 2 Halifax? Where is the balance there in terms of -- is 3 there a great need for ethnic programming to be 4 regionally produced? That relates also to issues about 5 the place of specialties and that type of thing. 6 345 DR. ZAYID: I wouldn't have thought 7 so. I think the essence of it is, as long as it's a 8 program of interest to the ethnic community, it doesn't 9 matter where it is produced. I don't think the 10 emphasis is that it has to be produced locally. 11 346 Obviously, on issues about local 12 content, like the CKDU does, programs related to the 13 community, that obviously needs to be generated 14 locally, but not all the programs. 15 347 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: An ideal 16 situation, I think, would be -- and maybe it's too 17 radical -- but the same way you get the main networks 18 to have the national news or the national programs and 19 you have the regional programming. Why put in radio 20 stations, such as CHIN or whichever, right here? Have 21 a local web, say in CKDU, and CKDU will beam up 30 22 minutes a week or 2 hours a week of locally produced 23 programming to satisfy the local needs and just (off 24 mic) that national aspect but be carried through the 25 CHIN network. It doesn't have to be one with the StenoTran 73 1 exclusion of the other. The market is not that large 2 here to have competition. 3 348 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, in fact, the 4 market is not. With the exception of the programming 5 that CKDU does, the market is not even large enough for 6 us to sustain an ethnic station here, of any sort -- 7 well, except for the programming that CKDU does. 8 349 So I guess, Dylan, to answer your 9 question then, what I'm hearing here is having CHIN 10 brought in from Toronto, even if a lot of its 11 programming tends to reflect the concerns of the 12 Toronto community and probably is talking about how 13 they are not able to clear the snow off some of the 14 streets there -- and by the way, we have no snow 15 here -- that that would be better than having no ethnic 16 programming here or it could well supplement the 17 programming that there is. 18 350 DR. ZAYID: I think that's true. 19 351 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Yes, Vision TV 20 does exactly the same. They have regional producers 21 and you go to them. Then, if you want a program 22 produced here to be put on the main network, you 23 convince them and it goes. 24 352 THE CHAIRMAN: Actually, I'm not 25 aware that -- notwithstanding what Juan Carlos said, I StenoTran 74 1 would have guessed that CHIN was available off of 2 CANCOM and, therefore, would be available on the 3 smaller cable systems to pick up the CANCOM service. 4 But I'm not aware that any of the larger cable stations 5 take the radio services off of CANCOM and offer them in 6 the communities. 7 353 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Maybe you can 8 enlighten us as to what CANCOM is. 9 354 THE CHAIRMAN: CANCOM is Canadian 10 Satellite Communications, which is a satellite 11 distributor of television signals but regionally 12 licensed largely to distribute those to smaller and 13 more remote communities. But also it offers a 14 competitive alternative to LAN distribution systems for 15 some of the U.S. signals and some other distant 16 Canadian signals. They do offer a package of radio 17 program services as well. 18 355 So depending on what our current rule 19 is -- I don't know even, Dylan, whether our current 20 rule prohibits it. My understanding is it probably 21 just doesn't even address it as to whether or not -- 22 and I don't know whether David would have a comment on 23 that about whether the CAB would have concerns about 24 ethnic stations being offered on cable systems, ethnic 25 stations that would be licensed in Toronto. Certainly, StenoTran 75 1 they wouldn't be taking any commercial advertising out 2 of the market here. But I think probably you don't 3 want to make a comment right now. 4 356 MR. MacLEAN: It's certainly a touchy 5 issue (off mic) in that also present would be 6 established in that particular (off mic). 7 357 MR. JONES: I actually just don't 8 know what the situation is on the distribution of 9 Canadian ethnic audio signals in the Atlantic 10 provinces. I wouldn't add anything further to that. 11 358 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I think it's an 12 issue worth considering anyway, both the pros and the 13 cons that there may be. 14 359 Does anybody have anything else they 15 want to raise? 16 360 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Just an add-on 17 to that note that no preference should be given to 18 national networks to the detriment of local possible 19 ventures, that whatever local venture may be possible 20 that they be given preference and pampering so that 21 they can evolve rather than because the other ones are 22 established and they are here already, let's keep them 23 and forget the other ones. 24 361 MR. RODGER: Should a national one be 25 taken off if there was a local one that you liked? StenoTran 76 1 362 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: That is an 2 interesting proposition. My brother-in-law might want 3 to kill me but I think I would prefer that. 4 363 MR. JONES: Just to clarify, there 5 is, under the Broadcasting Distribution Regulations, no 6 impediment to distribution -- undertaking distributing 7 no distant audio Canadian signal. What we're not sure 8 of is exactly who is being distributed where. 9 364 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I agree. I'm not 10 aware of anything in the Regs that says you cannot do 11 this. I'm just not aware of anybody doing it in any of 12 the major centres. 13 365 Is there anything else? 14 366 Arlene. 15 367 Fiona. 16 368 MS YORK: I had a couple of things 17 just on what you were saying there. I think that I 18 would definitely echo that because I wasn't quite sure 19 what your suggestion was about CHIN moving to CKDU, but 20 if your suggestion was that if there was some way of 21 carrying a brief portion of CHIN programming on CKDU, I 22 think that even if that was a possibility, we would 23 probably hesitate to even do that just because it is 24 national and we really focus on local programming. We 25 probably would just think, "This is getting airing in a StenoTran 77 1 lot of other places. It's not appropriate for us to 2 carry that." We would rather try to produce our own 3 programming that meets the same needs. 4 369 The other thing is the last part of 5 the discussion was about a lot of sort of different, 6 potential services like having a special ethnic 7 station, a community station or having cable stations 8 and things like that. I think those are fine ideas but 9 I just think that, in a lot of ways, that is just 10 continuing the marginalization of ethnic programming 11 groups. 12 370 If you have to go searching for some 13 little 50-watt station or some ethnic broadcast you 14 never hear about, the whole point is that you are 15 trying to raise awareness and make it part of the 16 mainstream, something that is easy and accessible to 17 get. 18 371 I think if we are fighting to 19 increase the number of hours we can do on a tiny 20 station or find a cable station or sub-carriers or 21 whatever, it's just not meeting the ideas that -- you 22 were saying public education, too, is really important, 23 that people have to be able to see the faces on the CBC 24 on the morning show and see them on TV and that 25 affirmative action is really helpful in those places StenoTran 78 1 because everyone is seeing that. It's not just being 2 set aside for some special station that -- you know, 3 you might look for it and you might look for it but a 4 lot of other people aren't going to look for and aren't 5 going to see those things. 6 372 So it's totally (off mic) to the 7 public education aspect and continues the 8 marginalization and limits the accessibility and takes 9 the responsibility away from commercial stations, which 10 is what they should be having in the first place. 11 373 THE CHAIRMAN: Look, I don't disagree 12 with anything you have said. I think all we are 13 looking at, with the case of CHIN, for example, would 14 be typically, in some of the more larger centres, we 15 license ethnic radio stations. Part of the conditions 16 that we have with them because largely, they will come 17 forward and say, "There is this huge Chinese community 18 or Indian community in our area we think we can provide 19 service to." But as part of their conditions, we 20 generally make them provide service in other languages 21 as well. 22 374 So if, for example, CKDU is only able 23 to, let's say, serve four different groups, language 24 groups, ethnic groups, here in Halifax, but CHIN is 25 serving 18, you could bring CHIN in on cable. Anybody StenoTran 79 1 who has cable television could get the CHIN radio 2 service and have access to all those other languages 3 that may serve different pockets of the community here 4 in Halifax, which may never be large enough to provide 5 a service on their own because of the relative make-up. 6 Any one is so small -- in fact, altogether, it may be 7 so small, it isn't evident that you would be able to 8 have enough put together to have an ethnic station that 9 could survive in this market. So that was that but 10 that shouldn't take away from the comments about trying 11 to put a more pluralistic face on conventional 12 broadcasting. 13 375 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: If I just may 14 clarify, trying a little bit of a better English on my 15 part. The idea was completely the opposite: for CKDU 16 to be able to send programming through CHIN the same 17 way that local webs are able to send information 18 through the networks. We have a good quality program 19 show. Why not from the East Coast to all across Canada 20 through the established channel? It was ethnic and not 21 (off mic). 22 376 THE CHAIRMAN: Geoff or Dylan, is 23 anybody talking about this sort of idea, of maybe sort 24 of more networking -- and I use that in both senses of 25 the word -- in order to provide sort of more of a StenoTran 80 1 national face, if you will, in terms of dealing with 2 some of these issues? 3 377 MR. JONES: I'm just going to clarify 4 one thing. We have been using CHIN as an example. 5 CHIN is an over-the-air conventional broadcaster in 6 Toronto and its mandate is to serve the Toronto market. 7 It's not a national -- it's not licensed as sort of a 8 national force of radio ethnic programming for the 9 country. 10 378 Having said that -- 11 379 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, but Dylan, 12 everybody who lives in Toronto believes it's national. 13 380 MR. JONES: We're talking about a 14 particular licensee, but the larger idea -- sort of 15 leaving CHIN out of the picture -- the larger idea of a 16 radio network, sort of a radio network model, where you 17 have sort of national radio programming and maybe local 18 (off mic) is a really fascinating proposal. 19 381 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, maybe we can 20 keep that thought and maybe something can gel around 21 this idea. 22 382 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: (Off mic...) 23 383 THE CHAIRMAN: Juan Carlos actually 24 wants to bring the business here to compete against his 25 brother, that's what it's all about. StenoTran 81 1 --- Laughter / Rires 2 384 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Well, when I was 3 asked to put the thinking cap on, I really did. Do you 4 see any negative -- not negative -- any -- let me 5 restart here. I'm thinking in Spanish first. 6 385 Would the concept of an ethnic 7 minority-oriented programming advisory committee to the 8 CRTC in each major centre of the country be something 9 that you would be warm to the idea of? 10 386 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure. Yes. Yes, 11 absolutely. 12 387 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: I'm not talking 13 only the people from other countries and other 14 cultures. We have Fiona, for example. She is running 15 the reality of CKDU radio. She knows exactly what she 16 is talking about. It doesn't have to be 17 immigrant-based only but people who are in the crux of 18 the matter of ethnic minorities. 19 388 THE CHAIRMAN: And that could be 20 advising on ethnic issues on ethnic stations or ethnic 21 issues or lack thereof on conventional -- 22 389 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: In situations 23 such as the bad portrayals in the news world, it could 24 be brought up more directly and more easily through 25 this council right to whatever body, whether it is the StenoTran 82 1 CRTC or the media at large -- 2 390 DR. ZAYID: Some advisory committee 3 of some -- 4 391 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Yes. 5 392 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. And perhaps even 6 working together with CAB and the CBC instead of -- 7 otherwise so we can get the education process going on. 8 393 MS VAN LEEUWEN: May I ask -- 9 394 THE CHAIRMAN: Arlene. 10 395 MS VAN LEEUWEN: Is there a similar 11 type of body for, for example, native broadcasting? 12 How does that operate? Is it a separate department? 13 396 THE CHAIRMAN: You mean, is there an 14 advisory body for -- 15 397 MS VAN LEEUWEN: Yes, such as -- 16 398 THE CHAIRMAN: Not really. Not that 17 I'm aware of. Dylan or Geoff? I mean we work with the 18 native community. We have licensed Northern Native 19 Television and they have applied for a licence to have 20 their service carried in the south. In fact, our 21 decision should be out shortly on that. There is no -- 22 399 MS VAN LEEUWEN: Direct analogy. 23 400 THE CHAIRMAN: -- no formal advisory 24 committee that I'm aware of. 25 401 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: That's a healthy StenoTran 83 1 idea, I think. 2 402 THE CHAIRMAN: It's a good idea. 3 403 Taking good notes, Dylan? 4 404 MR. JONES: Yes, sir. 5 405 THE CHAIRMAN: Anything else? 6 406 Do any of you observers have any 7 comments they want to make? 8 407 MR. MacLEAN: I should say that we 9 should highlight the hearings of the Canadian Broadcast 10 Standards Council, which deal with many of the issues 11 that have been raised here today with regard to, 12 certainly, sensitizing broadcasters in English or 13 French to a lot of the concerns that may be raised with 14 group portrayals or stereotyping of various groups. 15 408 I do know -- I'm just putting 16 forward, as a suggestion, that concerns of the nature 17 that you are raising, if they are forwarded to the 18 Canadian Broadcast Standards Council, they are dealt 19 with on a review process and certainly all of the 20 broadcasters are made aware of the decisions that come 21 out of these considerations as very, very helpful as a 22 sensitizing issue for the non-ethnic broadcasters, 23 let's put it that way. That might be something that 24 you would want to consider when you do encounter these 25 matters. StenoTran 84 1 409 It's not only -- the CBC has the 2 mechanism to deal with these problems and the private 3 broadcast sector has (off mic). 4 410 THE CHAIRMAN: David, I thought that 5 largely that's individual-specific complaint-driven? 6 411 MR. MacLEAN: Yes. 7 412 THE CHAIRMAN: So if there is a 8 specific complaint about a specific story being biased, 9 then the CBSC, Broadcast Standards Council -- well, 10 largely, the individual station. Then if it doesn't 11 handle that complaint with satisfaction, then it goes 12 to the Council and is dealt with there. 13 413 I guess the proposal here -- which I 14 think is good and certainly, from our point of view, we 15 appreciate the work that the Council is doing. But I 16 guess we're talking here largely of a more general 17 sensitizing of dealing with these issues and that maybe 18 this sort of advisory kind of council that might 19 encompass more than just the Commission I'm working 20 with -- the broadcasters... 21 414 DR. ZAYID: This is just to 22 communicate this to whom? 23 415 MR. MacLEAN: To the Canadian 24 Broadcast Standards Council. They are in Ottawa. All 25 licensees subscribe, as a condition of licence, to the StenoTran 85 1 Standards Council. Generally speaking, if for 2 instance, there was a portrayal as you described in a 3 particular newscast, with the newspaper, you can file a 4 complaint with the Press Council. With the 5 broadcasters -- 6 416 DR. ZAYID: I have done that many 7 times. 8 417 MR. MacLEAN: You can file a 9 complaint with the Canadian Broadcast Standards Council 10 that you object to this because it's stereotyping in a 11 negative fashion. These complaints are dealt with by 12 the Broadcast Standards Council. 13 418 We just have a constant flow of 14 information coming out of the Broadcast Standards 15 Council to us as broadcasters, certainly making us 16 aware about number of things: a) that these are issues 17 that may not apply in our market but we are certainly 18 sensitized to it; and secondly, it's a constant 19 education process, I think, for the broadcasters in the 20 sense that they realize that these things that they 21 might have been just doing as a matter of common 22 experience may be offensive. We tend to discuss this 23 with our staff on an ongoing basis. So that vehicle is 24 there. 25 419 DR. ZAYID: Will the content of the StenoTran 86 1 submissions that we made in the discussions we made 2 today reach your group? 3 420 MR. MacLEAN: Oh, yes. 4 421 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, this is all 5 public information. 6 422 MR. MacLEAN: I understand that 7 transcripts will be prepared and will be posted -- of 8 the session today -- on the Internet. Am I correct? 9 423 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 10 424 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: I think the 11 information you provided is very valuable. However, 12 the voice of one individual, as loud as it may be, will 13 never be as effective or make as large as an impression 14 as the common voice of a group of people who are 15 concerned with the same situation. I think that would 16 give validity to sort of a grouping or association of 17 individuals with concerns about broadcasting, not 18 necessarily to be lobbying but to be analyzing the 19 reality of their own region. I think that is the 20 validity of the concept. Then, of course, the 21 technicalities could be dealt with by the CRTC people 22 at large. 23 425 DR. ZAYID: Do you have an address 24 for your study you mentioned today? 25 426 MR. MacLEAN: We have that. StenoTran 87 1 427 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I want to thank 2 you all very much. I think we have had a good 3 discussion of the issues and this will all be helpful. 4 428 I think we have had some good 5 suggestions here today and a good discussion of the 6 issues but also some specific suggestions about how we 7 might go forward with the policies on specific issues 8 but some broader more general issues that I think would 9 be effective as well. 10 429 So we will be putting this together 11 with the information that we are hearing at the other 12 regional consultations plus the written information. I 13 think Brien has copies of the Public Notice for those 14 of you who didn't have a copy. So we welcome any 15 additional comments you might have. 16 430 MR. BATSTONE: It's Geoff again. 17 Just to maybe emphasize on that point. Written 18 comments can be filed through March 4th. So anybody 19 who wants to supplement their comments in that way, we 20 would certainly welcome that. 21 431 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, with this, I 22 think I will declare this conversation ended. 23 432 Thank you all very much. 24 --- Whereupon the hearing concluded at 1800 / 25 L'audience se termine à 1800 StenoTran
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