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Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.



                       SUBJECT / SUJET:

                       PUBLIC HEARING ON
                     AUDIENCE PUBLIQUE SUR

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

Dunsmuir Seniors Centre                 Dunsmuir Seniors Centre
411 Dunsmuir Street                     411 Dunsmuir Street
Vancouver, B.C.                         Vancouver (C.-B.)

February 2, 1999                        Le 2 février 1999

                          Volume  2
tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668


In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.


Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.

tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668

                 Canadian Radio-television and
                 Telecommunications Commission

              Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
                télécommunications canadiennes

                  Transcript / Transcription

              Public Hearing / Audience publique

            Third Language and Ethnic Programming /
       Programmation multilingue et à caractère ethnique


C. Grauer                               Chairperson / Présidente
A. Cardozo                              Commissioner / Conseiller


M. Vogel                                Secretary / Secrétaire
D. Jones                                Legal Counsel/Conseillers
G. Batstone                             juridiques

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

Dunsmuir Seniors Centre                 Dunsmuir Seniors Centre
411 Dunsmuir Street                     411 Dunsmuir Street
Vancouver, B.C.                         Vancouver (C.-B.)

February 2, 1999                        Le 2 février 1999

                          Volume  2
tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668


Presentation by / Présentation par:

Civic Youth Strategy                                      156

Mr. Prasad                                                161

Nosotros Television                                       168

The Latin American Community Council                      174

Ms Ekramoddoulla                                          183

RimJhim Radio                                             187

Progressive Intercultural Community                       200
  Services Society

Sikh Community Lodge                                      211

Paul Gill                                                 214

Mr. Aujla                                                 221

MOSAIC                                                    228

Christian Task Force on Central America                   240

Mr. Azam                                                  244

Mr. Nurany                                                249

Mr. Yiu                                                   255

National Campus & Community Radio                         263

Mr. Koya                                                  271

Mr. MacRae                                                278

Mr. Chung                                                 284

Korean Canadian TV                                        293

Mr. Janief                                                298

Ms Pham                                                   306

Rogers Multicultural Service                              308

tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668


 1                        Vancouver, B.C. / Vancouver (C.-B.)
 2     --- Upon commencing on Tuesday, February 2, 1999
 3         at 1603 / L'audience débute le mardi 2 février
 4         1999 à 1603
 5  622                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good afternoon,
 6     ladies and gentlemen.  Welcome to Day 2 of our public
 7     consultation here in Vancouver that we are holding to
 8     review our Ethnic Broadcasting Policy.
 9  623                  My name is Cindy Grauer, I'm the
10     Regional Commissioner for British Columbia and the
11     Yukon.  And allow me to introduce my colleague, Andrew
12     Cardozo, a CRTC Commissioner from Ottawa.
13  624                  My Commission and colleagues will be
14     listening to the comments and the views presented by
15     participants in these consultations which are being
16     held here in Vancouver, as well as in Montreal,
17     Halifax, Toronto and Winnipeg.  They will be concluding
18     tomorrow.  We will also be receiving written comments
19     and documents by e-mail.  All submissions, both oral
20     and written, will form part of the public record.
21     Objective of the consultations
22  625                  These consultations are part of a
23     process the CRTC began two years ago to review its
24     major policies for the Canadian broadcasting system,
25     including television and radio.


 1  626                  The goal of these consultations is to
 2     help the CRTC examine the policies and regulations that
 3     were established in 1985 when a Broadcasting Policy
 4     Reflecting Canada's Cultural and Linguistic Diversity
 5     was issued.  One of the most important goals of this
 6     policy is to ensure that the Canadian broadcasting
 7     system serves the needs and interests of all Canadians
 8     by reflecting their ethnocultural diversity in an
 9     effective manner.
10  627                  However, since this policy was
11     issued, Canada's demographic profile has changed
12     considerably, and the amount of third language and
13     ethnic programming available in the Canadian
14     broadcasting system has increased substantially.
15  628                  By looking into these issues around
16     ethnic broadcasting, we are asking:  are the goals of
17     the current policy still valid?  And, is the policy
18     still effective in attaining these goals?
19  629                  Public Notice 1998-135 set out a
20     series of questions and invited your views in response. 
21     We are ready to hear your comments.  But, before we do,
22     allow me to go on to some housekeeping matters
23     regarding the conduct of this consultation.
24     Housekeeping matters
25  630                  CRTC staff assisting us during this


 1     consultation are Geoff Batstone, Dylan Jones and
 2     Marguerite Vogel, who is the Director of our Western
 3     and Territories Regional Office, and will be our
 4     Hearing Secretary.  I invite you to call on them with
 5     any questions you may have, including any questions
 6     about the process today, and for the rest of the
 7     proceeding.
 8  631                  Our intention is to have the session
 9     run until all participants have been heard.  The
10     secretary will call each presenter in order.  If you
11     want to make a presentation, but have not registered in
12     advance, please let the secretary know.  Time
13     permitting, we will try to fit you into the schedule.
14  632                  To ensure that all parties have an
15     opportunity to make a presentation, we ask that you
16     limit your comments to ten minutes.
17  633                  The proceedings will be transcribed
18     and the transcript will form part of the record upon
19     which the Commission makes its decision.  So that the
20     people responsible for this task can provide an
21     accurate record, I would ask that, when you speak, you
22     press the small red button on the microphone in front
23     of you.  This activates the microphone, and is
24     indicated by a red light.
25  634                  For those of you who prefer to submit


 1     your comments in writing, comment cards are available
 2     at the back of the room, and from the secretary.  If
 3     you have any comments you would like to pass on, just
 4     write them on a card, sign it and give it to the
 5     secretary before the end of the session.
 6  635                  I would also like to add that anyone
 7     can file any written submissions or comments up until
 8     the 4th of March.
 9  636                  Now, what we will probably do is --
10     we found it worked effectively last night, is take a
11     break after each panel, which is probably in about an
12     hour and a half.
13  637                  We also, while we have quite a few
14     people registered tonight, we haven't -- we don't quite
15     if everybody's going to show up.  Last night was a
16     little shorter than usual.  What we have been doing is
17     restricting ourselves from asking questions in the
18     interest of ensuring that we hear from you, because
19     that's really what we're here to be, is listening.  So
20     while we may have the odd question of clarification,
21     don't interpret a lack of questioning on our part as a
22     lack of interest, but rather a desire to ensure that we
23     hear fully from all the participants.
24  638                  So I think that's...
25  639                  Now, let's call our first presenter,


 1     Madame Secretary.
 2  640                  THE SECRETARY:  Thank you,
 3     Commissioner Grauer.
 4  641                  I would just like to check to make
 5     sure that the first ten people are around the table. 
 6     We find that we can cut down on commute time if ten
 7     people sit at the table and do their presentations and
 8     then we can have everyone move away from the table and
 9     ten more presenters come up.  So if you could just wave
10     if I call your name, I'd appreciate it.
11  642                  Marie Didas, is that how you
12     pronounce your name?  Thanks.
13  643                  Muneshar Prasad, thank you.  Eduardo
14     Aragon, thank you.  Lubna Ekramoddoulla, thanks. 
15     Shushma Datt, Charan Gill, Wai Young?
16  644                  WAI YOUNG:  I'm sorry.  I'm actually
17     here to interpret for the seniors later.
18  645                  THE SECRETARY:  Okay.
19  646                  Thank you.
20  647                  Paul Gill, and Darshan Aujla.  Thank
21     you very much.
22  648                  I'm sorry, I missed Balwant Gill. 
23     Thank you, Mr. Gill.
24  649                  Okay.  I would invite Marie Didas to
25     make her presentation first.


 2  650                  MS DIDAS:  Hi.  My name's Marie
 3     Didas.  I'm from the Civic Youth Strategy.  We're a
 4     youth organization that liaises with other city youth
 5     councils and we make presentations to City Council
 6     based on issues that relate to youth.  We have about 10
 7     members.
 8  651                  Okay.  I guess I'm just answering
 9     these questions, right?  So the first question would
10     be:
11                            "To what extent does the present
12                            broadcasting system adequately
13                            serve Canada's ethnocultural
14                            communities?"
15  652                  I'm not sure that it serves it that
16     well because it's pretty low key.  I don't think the
17     ethnic programming is promoted in such a way that
18     people know it even exists.  I've heard of maybe one or
19     two programs myself and they're on the radio.  I've
20     seen some on TV but usually it's, like, movies from
21     other countries and that type of stuff; I've never seen
22     anything that's local media about local culture groups
23     or whatnot.
24  653                  The one radio station that I've seen
25     that's ethnic based is pretty good, but compared to


 1     other radio programming, I don't think it's got the
 2     level of quality and it seems less organized and that
 3     kind of stuff.  For being the only radio programming
 4     that I've seen that's ethnic, it's pretty good; but
 5     that's because there's not much to gauge it with, I
 6     can't compare it to anything else, but if you do
 7     compare it to mainstream radio it's, like, visibly
 8     less.  It's visibly lower quality and it could totally
 9     be improved.
10  654                  The same thing with ethnic
11     programming on TV.  There isn't just -- there just
12     isn't, like, promotion or presentation.  When you watch
13     it, it just doesn't measure up to everything else and
14     that's why the level of interest is probably going to
15     be lower because you look at it and you're just, like
16     -- it's just not as good as everything -- it's just not
17     as good as everything else, but it could be if the
18     level -- I don't know, the quality is improved.
19  655                  I'm sure that it serves some people
20     well, but for me as a youth, an ethnic minority, I see
21     very little broadcasting that appeals to me or serves
22     my interests or my needs or what I like or whatnot.
23  656                  Okay.  I'm going to move on to the
24     second question.
25                            "Given the demographic changes


 1                            that have taken place in Canada,
 2                            how can the needs and interests
 3                            of ethnocultural communities
 4                            continue to be served?"
 5  657                  Okay.  I think in order for the needs
 6     to be served, it's important to find out what they are
 7     continually and I guess this is what you're doing right
 8     now and that's great.  That's definitely good.
 9  658                  As a youth, I'd love to see more
10     ethnic programming that's just geared to youths, that,
11     like local youth ethnic activities that's going on and
12     cultural events.  And even, like, if you're coming from
13     another culture programming that's geared to help you
14     adjust to this culture, kind of thing.  That would be
15     great to see.  I'd also like to see any -- I don't
16     know, any kind of thing that's going on, just local
17     stuff, it would be really interesting.  But it's not
18     going to attract me unless it's presented well or
19     promoted enough for me to even know about its
20     existence.
21  659                  I think there's plenty of youth
22     interest in local ethnic community stuff, but it's
23     just -- it's still the awareness factor.  It's just you
24     really don't know about it.  I think youth from here
25     would probably be interested in learning about local --


 1     like local ethnic community stuff, as well, but again,
 2     it's just the presentation when they're looking at
 3     other stuff on TV or hearing other stuff on the radio,
 4     it just doesn't reach out.  It just doesn't make it any
 5     more appealing.
 6  660                  And one thing that bothers me is the
 7     way other cultures are presented by media here
 8     sometimes.  Like, I'll go to school and people will be
 9     asking me about Ethiopia, where I come from, and
10     they'll say stuff like, "Did you live in a hut there?"
11     and "Were you starving?", and that's what I see in
12     media here.  It's often very unbalanced and they'll
13     show negative things and I'd really, like, personally
14     be happy if they'd focus on local positive things and
15     like, kind of things that would make people interested
16     in watching and learning about other cultures.  That'd
17     just be a good thing, I think.
18  661                  Finally:
19                            "Should there be a priority on
20                            the development of Canadian
21                            ethnocultural services rather
22                            than important foreign
23                            services?"
24  662                  I guess that would be logical,
25     because since we're here, we have to talk about the


 1     surrounding issues and local ethnic stuff rather than
 2     stuff from another country.  It doesn't -- it doesn't
 3     -- I don't know, it just doesn't make much sense to me. 
 4     If it's here it should reflect what's going on around
 5     us and there's plenty -- I think that there's plenty of
 6     cultural organizations and events that are happening
 7     here, that could totally be covered.  And that kind of
 8     stuff is also the kind of stuff that would interest all
 9     the other, you know, the kids who live here and the
10     other people who live here, because they don't want to
11     see, like, out-of-date movies from who knows where,
12     like, I don't know, out-of-date stuff that has nothing
13     to do with what's going on here.  That's what is going
14     to interest people, that's what's going to interest
15     youth, in my opinion and that's what's going to
16     interest me, as well.
17  663                  I also know a lot of people that take
18     part in local ethnic cultural events and they'd love to
19     have their things publicized, but there's just nobody
20     knows how to access it or that it even exists, and so
21     it's really, really hard.  I just think if more
22     promotion and that kind of stuff went on, then it could
23     be way better and just more appealing.
24  664                  That's about it.  Any questions?
25  665                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  No,


 1     thank you very much.
 2  666                  MS DIDAS:  Okay.  Thank you.
 3  667                  THE SECRETARY:  I'd like to invite
 4     Muneshar Prasad to make his presentation now.
 6  668                  MR. PRASAD:  Thank you.
 7  669                  I would like to thank the CRTC for
 8     according this opportunity for me to speak as an
 9     interested member of the public on this very, very
10     important issue.
11  670                  Before I proceed, Madame Chair, I
12     wish to divert from the format to which I did not have
13     until now, the question and answers, so I may be
14     rumbling a little bit, or rambling a little bit, so
15     please bear with me.
16  671                  I'm of the opinion at first, that we
17     must forthwith restore our national basis programming
18     for First Nations.  When CBC had this program and then
19     the cuts came about, this program was lost.  I rather
20     -- I'm not interested in -- on radio program as it
21     happens that which dog bit who where in England. That's
22     got nothing to do with me.  I want the programming to
23     be brought at the local level and at the national level
24     and I think it will meet section 3(d)(i) of the Act
25     under which you are bound.  It'll meet the requirements


 1     of multicultural society and ethnocultural needs if
 2     that is implied.
 3  672                  At this time, I wish to now address
 4     my mind to few other things.  That we have got a large
 5     community here of recent immigrants or immigrants who
 6     have arrived a few years ago who do not have the
 7     knowledge of English or French, and as a result of
 8     that, that there is no national policy that whereby the
 9     national policies are in -- are told through media to
10     this elderly citizens of ours.  So they are basically
11     bound by innuendos or people taking advantage of these
12     people.  What we really need, if the government has a
13     policy like everything is gazetted, that's the
14     government arm of decimating information.  CBC Radio
15     and CBC Television should be doing that.
16  673                  It is very important that the eldest
17     are made to feel at home in this country.  Then we have
18     got private broadcasters and TV people, they are going
19     through difficult times, but they may have their own
20     agendas, which may not be my national agenda or our
21     national agenda, because we have to still build a
22     country.  A 60 year person once asked me "Why is Quebec
23     giving us so much trouble?"  Now, if this program was
24     in Hindi, if the issues were explained in Hindi, now
25     this elderly person would have understood that -- what


 1     was happening to our country, what is happening to our
 2     country today.  So the information had to be told to
 3     this particular person through me, rightly or wrongly.
 4  674                  So these are some of the issues that
 5     we are looking at.  Also, if we are going in to
 6     preventive health plan, you know, as I know, that the
 7     -- that the people of the First Nations suffer from
 8     diabetes, so do the East Indians.  The First Nations
 9     suffer from very high rate of heart failure and
10     arterial diseases, so do the East Indians.  If an
11     education through radio or through TV is done, what are
12     we doing in here?  What we are doing is basically we
13     are saving taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars
14     in the long run.  We are producing not philosopher
15     citizens -- kings, but philosopher citizens, which is
16     also very important that the knowledge becomes common. 
17     And that's it, it is utilized.
18  675                  My hope and my aspersion is this,
19     that that -- that there be some ethnocultural
20     programming through CBC.  I'm an insomniac and when I
21     switch on CBC at four o'clock in the morning, what I
22     hear is news from Europe.  It's marvellous, but then I
23     hear the same stuff at seven o'clock then I hear the
24     same stuff at eight o'clock when I'm reading my paper,
25     I read it in the newspaper.  There is no coverage from


 1     Asia.  There's no coverage from the Pacific.  This may
 2     surprise you that CBC did not carry recently a
 3     devastating flood in Fiji.  They did not carry it. 
 4     Why?  I do not know, maybe because of the geographical
 5     division, it is not in the interest of Canadian's
 6     government to be doing that, but whatever it may be. 
 7     Now then, there are close to 50,000 Fijians living in
 8     here.  We are all worried about our relatives back
 9     home, so what do we do?  We phone.  I should not be
10     phoning, I should not be allowed to incur costs because
11     I'm paying -- I'm paying taxes from which CBC is funded
12     and CBC is not doing their job.
13  676                  Talking about the other -- the other
14     issue is this, that -- that CBC FM, and I'm a great
15     listener of that particular program with Joergen
16     Goeth (ph) and the other lady that skips -- her name, I
17     escape at this time.  It's a great program, you know,
18     wonderful western music.  But never there is ever a
19     mention of the great Japanese flute music, Shakuhatchi. 
20     There is never, ever explanation of the raagas, how
21     raagas are set up during the day and how raagas
22     original.  There is no information, so what is really
23     happening in here?  The barriers which could be broken
24     down is not breaking down, but if it was something
25     negative, if there was a fight in an "X" place, that


 1     will -- that will be run every hour until the following
 2     day, it will not be dropped.
 3  677                  The culture where I come from happens
 4     to be an Indian culture and my culture is not a
 5     Bollywood culture.  My culture -- the programming that
 6     are being done, you know, it is better programming on
 7     -- I hate to say this, but on channel, on the American
 8     channels on cultural issues, channel -- the one across
 9     here in Seattle.  Wonderful programming, you can get a
10     lot of cultural stuff in there.  We are failing.  What
11     are we doing?  I really do not understand.
12  678                  The other issue that I would like to
13     raise is also that recently I had to spend $90 buying a
14     sub-carrier receiver, which I think is not good.  It is
15     horrible state of affairs if I have to go if I want to
16     listen to a program that I have to go and spend $90 to
17     buy this particular sub-receiver.  Why doesn't CRTC
18     make the FM channels available to the multicultural
19     groups.
20  679                  You must understand this, that all
21     multicultural groups cannot throw money on that -- and
22     go and buy existing licenses, because a Fijian
23     community is not wealthy as other communities, late
24     arrival or early arrival, it does not matter.  We
25     cannot go and buy a radio station.  So therefore, I am


 1     asking that you do consider very seriously the -- the
 2     FM licenses.
 3  680                  The other thing that really upsets me
 4     also is this, that recently in -- on the sub -- on
 5     sub-carriers lines, that the information is being fed
 6     from Surrey, it goes to the United States and then it
 7     comes back to Canada.  And what is happening in there
 8     that there is a lot of animosity because of the
 9     politics involved which I do not want to get into at
10     this time, and there is no control.  You know, no
11     reports can be made to CRTC or I don't even know the
12     American's have a similar organization whereby that
13     they can look at and call people for explanation.
14  681                  It's a ridiculous situation.  You
15     know, and that the Sikh community that tells me that it
16     is not acceptable to them.
17  682                  If you just bear a second, I just
18     want to go through my notes in here.
19  683                  At this time, I think I wish to thank
20     you for listening to me, and I would like to conclude
21     my remarks at this stage.  Thank you.
22  684                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
23     Prasad, very much.  I don't have any questions.
24  685                  Commissioner Cardozo has a question.
25  686                  COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I just have a


 1     couple of comments to make, no questions.
 2  687                  Just first, to Ms Didas.  I see
 3     you're about to leave.  I just wanted to say to you,
 4     thank you very much for being here.  It's not often
 5     that we have young people come to our hearings and we
 6     had some youth groups here yesterday, and I really want
 7     to thank you for taking the time to be here.
 8  688                  MS DIDAS:  Okay.  No problem.  Good
 9     night.
10  689                  COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And Mr.
11     Prasad, I just wanted to point out that we have a --
12     the renewal of the CBC licence will be coming up later
13     on this year and there are hearings, consultations,
14     similar to this taking place in March.  I believe it's
15     March the 16th here in Vancouver, but if you talk to
16     the person at the desk, she can give you the details.
17  690                  And I mention that, because we look
18     at each issue separately, so the comments you have on
19     CBC, whatever comments anybody might have, are best
20     made during that hearing, then they get considered
21     within that context.
22  691                  Thanks.  Thanks, Commissioner.
23  692                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
24  693                  THE SECRETARY:  Our next presenter is
25     Rossana Ascencio.  Go ahead.


 2  694                  MS ASCENCIO:  Can you hear me there?
 3  695                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.
 4  696                  MS ASCENCIO:  Yeah.
 5  697                  Good afternoon everyone.  First of
 6     all, I want to say that it's a great honour for me to
 7     be here tonight, well today, taking part in something
 8     that I know will be decisive in the future of ethnic
 9     broadcasting policies.
10  698                  My name is Rossana Ascencio and I am
11     the co-producer and host of Nosotros Television. 
12     Nosotros Television, it's a local community magazine
13     produced in Spanish, 100 percent locally here in
14     Vancouver.  And it broadcasts weekly on the Rogers
15     Multicultural Channel.
16  699                  Unfortunately Miguel Figueroa, our
17     senior producer and director was unable to be here
18     tonight, but I speak for both of us, when I say that we
19     believe that this is a great opportunity for us to
20     express our needs as local producers.
21  700                  As I said before Nosotros Television,
22     it's a local magazine and was created a year and a half
23     ago, precisely because of the need existing of having a
24     space that will represent the local community that will
25     bring us information of what's happening around our


 1     city, around our community, information on the issues
 2     that affect our daily life here in Vancouver.  And also
 3     because of the fact that we believe it is important for
 4     us to keep our language alive, not only culturally but
 5     also for future generations of immigrants and also to
 6     have a space for the new immigrants to come -- that
 7     come to our city to feel related to something when they
 8     arrive in Vancouver.
 9  701                  Nosotros Television is, as I said,
10     broadcasted on the Rogers Multicultural Channel and we
11     are thankful for this space, because we believe that if
12     it wasn't for spaces like this one, we wouldn't be able
13     to reach into our community and this is why we think
14     that this is the moment to give a change and to review
15     what's been done until now.
16                                                        1630
17  702                  As I said, we are thankful for this
18     space, but we believe that we have many limitations as
19     local producers.  As local producers, we have an
20     interest in promoting our local arts, local sports,
21     local events, local issues, but we have a huge
22     limitation, and that is the monetary one.  As you know,
23     there are many limitations for sponsorship in a
24     community channel, as the multicultural channel is. 
25     And this not only limits our budget, but also the way


 1     that we can reach into our community.
 2  703                  So basically, as an answer to the
 3     first question that you presented, I believe that right
 4     now, or we believe right now as producers, that the
 5     system just reaches the community to a certain extent
 6     and serving the multicultural community to a certain
 7     extent.  There are things that have to be modified.
 8  704                  And, as a second point, I think it
 9     links to the same thing, there are things that have to
10     be addressed and changes that have to be done in order
11     for local producers who feel the need to reach into
12     their communities to have access, not only to funds,
13     but to bigger sponsorship and to larger budgets to
14     produce our programs and have a way to reaching into
15     our community.
16  705                  And as an answer to the third
17     question, I believe that the services, the changes and
18     the cultural services, are definitely a priority,
19     rather than foreign services.  When we have the
20     opportunity to present this program for the Rogers
21     Multicultural Channel, it was precisely because until
22     that time, a year and a half ago, well, actually two
23     years ago, there were only programs that were imported,
24     foreign programs from Latin America, that were serving
25     only to a certain extent our community.  Programs that,


 1     in fact, related our people to what was happening in
 2     the homelands, which, as you know, Latin America's
 3     composed of -- by more than 20 countries.  So we are
 4     serving itself a very large and diverse community.
 5  706                  So until that time, the programs, the
 6     foreign programming were only serving our community to
 7     a certain extent.  This is why we started producing
 8     this local program, this local magazine.  And until
 9     now, we are happy to say that we have reached into our
10     community and we are very aware of the needs that the
11     Latin American community and the Spanish-speaking
12     community at large has.  But once again, we are limited
13     by this -- we are limited by the current policies and
14     by the current ways that our programs can be sponsored.
15  707                  The Rogers Multicultural Channel is
16     making huge efforts for us to be a more viewer-friendly
17     channel.  We face this reality day by day.  When we
18     have to apply for media accreditation, something that
19     we faced a couple of days ago, for the Grizzlies, we
20     are currently supporting and we are very, very proud to
21     know that there are two Latin American players in the
22     Grizzlies.  So we went there and we applied for media
23     accreditation and we were not treated as mainstream
24     media.  We were considered, "Oh, you're local community
25     programming.  Oh, you're local producers.  You're only


 1     community programmers".  They don't take us seriously. 
 2     Only because of the fact that they say local community
 3     programming and this is limiting us.  This is not
 4     allowing our community to have a more serious
 5     presentation, a more serious representation in the
 6     media.
 7  708                  And for this, I only want to conclude
 8     my presentation saying that the changes that need to be
 9     addressed from our view are the facts of the policies
10     and the way our programs can be sponsored and the fact
11     that, yes, in fact, for private broadcasters, there's a
12     challenge for them to open their spaces, also, for
13     ethnocultural programming.
14  709                  This is it.
15  710                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
16     Ascencio.  I would also -- thank you very much for your
17     presentation.
18  711                  I'd like to remind you that you have
19     until the 4th of March to make any further submissions. 
20     So if you have any specific recommendations with regard
21     to these areas you're concerned about, we would welcome
22     hearing from you on that.
23  712                  MS ASCENCIO:  Thank you.  And I would
24     just like to add, and in fact, my presentation has to
25     be this short, because I have to run back to our studio


 1     to keep doing our program for Thursday.
 2  713                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, thank you
 3     very much for making the time to come and talk to us
 4     today.
 5  714                  MS ASCENCIO:  Thank you for the
 6     opportunity, once again.
 7  715                  THE SECRETARY:  Our next presenter is
 8     Eduardo Aragon.
10  716                  MR. ARAGON:  Good evening.  I'm here
11     representing the Latin American Community Council.
12  717                  It is a great honour and pleasure for
13     me to be here representing a -- we represent a network
14     of services for the Latin American community.  As such,
15     we deal with all the current issues that are affecting
16     Latin Americans in the Lower Mainland, and also have
17     some contacts with workers in other areas of the
18     province and other areas of the country.
19  718                  This gives us a very intimate insight
20     into what is happening to Latin Americans in Vancouver,
21     in the province and abroad in Canada and further out
22     into other countries.
23  719                  We have noticed that ethnic
24     programming is extremely limited.  If you are a working
25     person, you have to miss the daily programming that


 1     occurs in working hours.  Several other people do not
 2     have regular nine-to-five jobs, so unfortunately
 3     Nosotros cannot be seen by many people because they
 4     have to work.  And the spaces are very limited and the
 5     channels that actually broadcast in Spanish are
 6     absolutely limited.
 7  720                  If we take a look at the current
 8     demographics in Canada, we realize that people of Latin
 9     American descent or Spanish-speaking, account for the
10     fourth place in all immigrants to Canada.  In B.C.,
11     this number is a lot smaller, we only account for
12     18,000 individuals.
13  721                  But this is not true representation
14     of who we are.  We believe that many people do not
15     express in Statistics Canada that they come from a
16     different background or that they speak a different
17     language at home.  And statistics are a little
18     truncated because of the fact that if I marry a
19     Japanese woman, the language spoken at home is not
20     going to be Japanese or Spanish, it's going to be
21     English or French.  Therefore, the data that is
22     collected by Statistics Canada is not reflective of the
23     community that the CRTC is intended to serve.
24  722                  I believe that by negating the very
25     nature of who we are by prohibiting any reference to


 1     ethnic origin in some of the surveys, we are not being
 2     true to who we are.
 3  723                  Having said this, I would agree with
 4     Ms Ascencio when she says that sponsorship has a  lot
 5     to do with the variety of programming.  If the sponsors
 6     are not supporting the ethnic language programming, 
 7     it's probably because they do not feel that they will
 8     be presented in the most advantageous way in the ethnic
 9     programming.  Therefore, if Latin Americans amount to
10     fourth in terms of all ethnic backgrounds in Canada,
11     that market is being lost to your English or French
12     counterparts.
13  724                  There are many people that do not
14     watch the regular news or the regular programming
15     because they do not understand the language in which it
16     is provided.  Elderly people, newcomers to Canada,
17     young children who do not speak the language because
18     they recently immigrated or because the language at
19     home is not English or French, are being prevented or
20     deprived of programming in their own language.
21  725                  Other than that, I would like to say
22     that the four or six or eight hours slot in a week of
23     ethnic programming by any language, in particular,
24     would not address the diverse needs of the whole
25     community.  You would probably have a soap opera in


 1     Spanish and that would certainly address the needs of a
 2     limited number of viewers, but certainly it would not
 3     address the needs of young, the needs of older people,
 4     the needs of working people.  Therefore, the
 5     programming is very limited and in fact, people have to
 6     go to the mainstream media for anything else because,
 7     as I said before, the sponsors are not there to support
 8     a wide variety of programming and there are many
 9     restrictions for the ethnic language programs to
10     approach the sponsors and I believe that should be
11     changed.  And the way that they -- promote the sponsors
12     should be consistent with the way sponsors are promoted
13     in Spanish-speaking countries, for instance, or
14     Chinese-speaking countries.
15  726                  You see, the limitations imposed on
16     the ethnic programmers are such that they have to
17     promote the sponsor the English way, and that doesn't
18     work for the ethnic communities.  Sponsors have to be
19     promoted according to the language and culture where
20     the programming is offered.
21  727                  It's been cited that there is very
22     few frequencies available for, you know, ethnic
23     programming to be expanded.  However, you know, if you
24     think of digitalization, then you're thinking many more
25     opportunities for many more things to happen, even


 1     single language channels that would be -- if we're
 2     talking Vancouver, there could be a production in
 3     Vancouver to contribute to a single-language network.
 4  728                  If Latin Americans are the fourth in
 5     terms of all ethnic backgrounds in all of Canada and
 6     yet not so big in Vancouver, if local programming could
 7     be added to a Spanish-speaking network, for instance,
 8     that would be very advantageous because it would
 9     promote local interest in Vancouver, but also in the
10     Maritimes, it would promote local interest in Toronto,
11     but also in Québec and the Yukon, because it would be a
12     network that would broadcast and that would give the
13     diversity of programming to all the viewers' needs.
14  729                  And the same is true for any other
15     language that you can think of.  The sponsors would
16     feel more encouraged to contribute or to be announced
17     in a network, rather than just Vancouver or just
18     Richmond.  The CRTC encompasses all of Canada and if
19     the sponsors know that they are advertising in a
20     network, at 4:39 p.m. in Vancouver, but at the same
21     time at 7:39 in Toronto, they would be a lot more
22     willing to support any endeavour that would create
23     local programming.  Not imported programming from other
24     countries or some things that had been made in Spain or
25     Chile or Mexico, but local, Canadian-born, Spanish


 1     programming.
 2  730                  And we are all Canadian-born or first
 3     generation Canadians who have no access to our ancestry
 4     or our language or any of that because of regulations
 5     that were enacted in 1985.  The population demographics
 6     have changed quite dramatically, and I think that the
 7     CRTC should make a bigger effort to reflect the reality
 8     of, not just today, but 10 or 20 years from now.  We
 9     have to think about the future -- in terms of the
10     future and not in terms of 20 years ago, which doesn't
11     help our viewers, it doesn't help our communities.
12  731                  The classification of the programming
13     in Type A, Type B, Type C, Type D, Type E, it's a
14     little complex and it should have to be re-evaluated. 
15     And I know for a fact that programming of Type C, for
16     instance, is not very big on the existing ethnocultural
17     channels or any of the networks, is because it's
18     probably not promoted properly.  If you talk about
19     Canadian history in terms of black immigrants, that
20     would certainly attract them.  Even if it's in English,
21     because it's about who they are and it would view them
22     as truly participants in this society.
23  732                  If you speak of -- just look around
24     you, Alma Street, Blanca bus, Juan de Fuca Street, in
25     so many of the names, that speaks of our Spanish


 1     heritage, but is not being scratched in current
 2     programming of the day.  I challenge the CRTC to make
 3     it known that Canada was not built by two guys, one
 4     from England and another one from France; Canada was
 5     built by immigrants, by me and by all of you and it's
 6     in the process of being built.  We haven't gotten to
 7     the finish yet, we're just building the second story
 8     here of a larger building.
 9  733                  So I challenge the CRTC to reflect
10     who we are in terms of programming, in terms of
11     languages spoken and in terms of our history.
12  734                  And I think that's all I have to say. 
13     Thank you very much.
14  735                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much
15     Mr. Aragon.  I don't have any questions, but I believe
16     Commissioner Cardozo does.
17  736                  COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you,
18     Commissioner Grauer.
19  737                  I just wanted to ask you, you were
20     talking about your dream, perhaps, of a network of
21     Spanish speaking or Latin American radio stations
22     across the country at some point in the future when
23     there can be digital capacity across the country.
24  738                  I just wanted to get a sense from you
25     whether you think then, that there could be -- if such


 1     a thing could be licensed, that there would be adequate
 2     programming made in Canada or do you think there would
 3     have to be some imported and do you think that there is
 4     an adequate economic base on which to make it
 5     economically viable?
 6  739                  And I'm not anticipating a
 7     carved-in-stone answer, because I understand where your
 8     thinking is on this, but I just wanted to get a sense
 9     of that from you.
10  740                  MR. ARAGON:  First of all, the
11     answer's a little bit of a dream, but then reality,
12     sir, is made of dreams.  If we don't have dreams, we
13     don't have realities, we don't do anything.
14  741                  I believe that it is possible, at
15     this particular moment, it is possible to do some of
16     the things I said.  If we take CBC to task, or any of
17     the existing channels to task and speak of the history
18     of the people that make the -- the make up of Canadian
19     society, you will find that there is a market for them,
20     there's all of us.  Twenty percent of the immigrants
21     that come to Canada, actually make B.C. their new home. 
22     So there is a market for those people to know that they
23     are not newcomers, that their ancestors are founding
24     mothers and fathers of Canada, as well.
25  742                  Networking, well Rogers is vigorously


 1     promoting digitalization and they are saying that by
 2     the next Millennium, early in the next Millennium, we
 3     will have access to hundreds of channels.  And are we
 4     then thinking the CRTC will then start to look at it? 
 5     Or now is time to look at these things, because the
 6     policy here says 1985.  That's a long time ago.  I've
 7     been here in this country for two years then.  And now
 8     is time to think of the future in terms of how can we
 9     expand the programming, the markets and truly there are
10     main contributors to the existing networks, Molson
11     Canadian, BC Tel, et cetera, et cetera, who would be
12     very willing at advertise in other programs.
13  743                  COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thanks very
14     much.  Thanks Madame Chair.
15  744                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
16  745                  THE SECRETARY:  Our next presenter is
17     Lubna Ekramoddoulla.
19  746                  MS EKRAMODDOULLA:  My name is Lubna
20     Ekramoddoulla.  I'm here to express my personal views
21     which addresses the CRTC's Ethnic Broadcasting Policy.
22  747                  I have what is called an ethnic
23     background and so the CRTC's policy has a direct impact
24     on me now and in the future.  I also have a degree in
25     communications and ethnic programming or lack thereof


 1     and it's effects on ethnic communities as a social
 2     issue in which I have an interest.
 3  748                  My ethnic background is
 4     Bangladeshi/Bengali, which would be categorized broadly
 5     as South Asian.  My parents are from Bangladesh, but I
 6     was born and raised in Canada, specifically Winnipeg,
 7     Victoria and Vancouver.
 8  749                  My childhood was spent mostly with
 9     Bengali and non-Bengali children, but when I became an
10     adolescent, I was faced with many problems relevant to
11     my culture.  I was constantly challenged with balancing
12     my traditional Bengali culture, quote/unquote "my
13     parent's culture" and mainstream western culture or
14     Canadian culture.
15  750                  Did I adhere to the Bengali social
16     roles or customs of my parents or did I act and appear
17     like my Canadian friends?  This question reoccurred
18     throughout my adolescence.  I was in constant conflict
19     between Bengali traditions and lifestyle choices of
20     people who were born and raised in Canada.  I was
21     always in conflict trying to resolve this issue which
22     subsequently led me to almost reject my ethnic
23     background.
24  751                  But in the last couple of years, I
25     have come to realize that I don't have to make a choice


 1     between the two cultures.  I can integrate my Bengali
 2     traditions into my mainstream Canadian lifestyle.  But
 3     it was not easy for me to come to this conclusion.  I
 4     made this decision when I realized that my new Bengali
 5     friends in Eastern Canada had done so.  I saw that it
 6     was possible to maintain ethnic traditions while living
 7     in Canada and being a Canadian.
 8  752                  In retrospect, I also realized that
 9     media, specifically television, had and still does have
10     an extremely strong influence on how I perceived and
11     dealt with this cultural conflict I experienced.
12  753                  I fully admit that I watched a lot of
13     television, perhaps even too much.  Anything I watched
14     had an effect on me.  Unfortunately, I cannot remember
15     a single program that dealt with cultural conflict
16     between an adolescence generation and his or her
17     parents' generation or with ethnic youth in general or
18     had ethnically diverse characters.  There is not much
19     that reflected me or my situation.
20  754                  I'm in my early twenties now and I
21     still find the need to watch programs that relate to me
22     and my culture.  My realization that I can integrate
23     Bengali traditions with Canadian choices does not
24     exempt me from being part of a South Asian ethnic
25     multicultural audience with a need.


 1  755                  Currently, there is some South Asian
 2     programming available, however, it is only on a
 3     Specialty channel and airs at unreasonable times of the
 4     day.  For example, in the morning or early afternoon
 5     when I'm at work or school or at midnight when I'm
 6     sleeping.  The programming I have seen is more of the
 7     type of local current events, rather than dramas, for
 8     example, which deal with real issues played out in
 9     realistic situations.  As well, there is no third
10     language programming in Bengali within that South Asian
11     content.
12  756                  And while you may infer what my
13     anecdotes are attempting to portray, I will be explicit
14     in my recommendations regarding ethnic programming.
15  757                  The Bengali and general South Asian
16     communities, certainly like other ethnic communities in
17     Vancouver and the Lower Mainland, is in need of a
18     broadcasting outlet with programming that will reflect
19     and address its issues and concerns, especially for its
20     youth and other marginalized groups within that ethnic
21     community.
22  758                  The programming needs to be local,
23     about us in Vancouver or the Lower Mainland.  It needs
24     to be diverse, representing all groups within the South
25     Asian community, including Bengali, not just Punjabi or


 1     Hindi.  It needs to be aired during prime time and
 2     other reasonable air times and not be restricted to
 3     Specialty channels.
 4  759                  And in general, national television
 5     stations need to increase its Canadian programming,
 6     especially that which include positive representations
 7     of multi-ethnic and multicultural issues.  I want to be
 8     able to turn on the TV at any time of the day and see
 9     position South Asian stories on any of the national
10     mainstream television stations.
11  760                  There has been at least one program
12     that was a good example of what the CRTC's Ethnic
13     Broadcasting Policy was intended to encourage.  It
14     aired during prime time on a mainstream television
15     channel, it was developed and produced in Canada and
16     attempted to reflect and address issues and concerns
17     facing many of Canada's aboriginal communities.  So why
18     doesn't Canada, specifically Vancouver or the Lower
19     Mainland, have more programs like that that deal with
20     South Asian and other ethnic communities?
21  761                  I think the intentions of the CRTC
22     policy on ethnic broadcasting are supportive of
23     multicultural Canadians.  However, it's application is
24     ineffective at adequately serving ethnic communities
25     such as South Asian.


 1  762                  I hope that my story has helped to
 2     make that clear and I hope to see many positive
 3     improvements in Canadian ethnic programming in the near
 4     future.  Thank you.
 5  763                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 6     much.  I don't have any questions.
 7  764                  THE SECRETARY:  Next, I'd invite
 8     Shushma Datt to make her presentation.
10  765                  MS DATT:  Members of Commission,
11     ladies and gentlemen.  Thank you very much for giving
12     me an opportunity to present my views on the
13     broadcasting policy reflecting Canada's linguistic and
14     cultural diversity.
15  766                  My name is Shushma Datt and I am the
16     owner/operator of an SCMO service licensed in 1987
17     called RimJhim.  "RimJhim" means "drizzle".  Keeping in
18     mind that it drizzles in Vancouver 12 months of the
19     year.
20     --- Laughter / Rires
21  767                  MS DATT:  The 1985 ethnic policy, I
22     feel, is outdated and needs to be looked into and
23     that's what is being done today and we are very happy
24     about that.
25  768                  When I came to Canada 27 years ago


 1     from England, CJVB was licensed as the first ethnic
 2     radio station.  My stint to CJVB lasted for seven
 3     years, during that time, a one hour a day program for
 4     the South Asian community seemed just right.  It was in
 5     1978 that then, CJJC, which was a conventional radio
 6     station used the 15 percent ethnic broadcasting clause
 7     and brokered time to aspiring South Asian business
 8     people.  It's announcers charged only $5 per ad,
 9     compared to the $25 that CJVB charged.
10  769                  CJJC ran 12 hours of South Asian
11     programming every Saturday and CJVB's one hour a day
12     suffered immensely.  Unhealthy competition was the
13     death of CJVB's one hour a day South Asian programming.
14  770                  It was very evident at that time that
15     the community was growing and it's demands were
16     growing, too.  When I left CJVB, it was evident that
17     there has to be a stand-alone service for the South
18     Asian community, but the regulations were and still are
19     very strict for unilingual services and are not
20     encouraged by the Commission.
21  771                  I waited for nine years before I
22     could embark on a stand-alone SCMO service for the
23     South Asian community.  In those nine years I entered
24     the world of television.  My association with Vancouver
25     Cablevision, now Rogers Cable, goes back to 1976.  I


 1     will address the ethnic television issue, as well.
 2  772                  The SCMO service, RimJhim, that was
 3     licensed in 1987 is in it's twelfth year.  With an
 4     impressive staff of 25 broadcasters who have their
 5     broadcasting background in England, India, Pakistan and
 6     Fiji, RimJhim operates like any other broadcasting
 7     undertaking.  Although we are not regulated, our
 8     station follows all the FM regulations.
 9  773                  We keep a logger tape, we abide by
10     the Broadcast Act.  Our programs enhance the South
11     Asian mosaic.  We broadcast in Hindi, Punjabi, Urdu,
12     Gujarati and English.  We work as a link between new
13     immigrants and old-timers.  We keep our listeners
14     up-to-date with what is happening in their world and in
15     the world outside of their circle.  We tie up with
16     India twice a day to provide a 20 minute news coverage
17     and have 15 news bulletins in a day on the hour, every
18     hour in Hindustani and Punjabi, telling the listeners
19     what's happening in their world.
20  774                  We respect all religions and present
21     morning programming for Sikhs, Hindus, Christians and
22     Muslim listeners.  RimJhim is a non-partisan radio
23     station with its beliefs strictly embedded in the
24     spirit of multiculturalism.  We, South Asians, are
25     perhaps the most multi-lingual and multicultural


 1     community of Canada.
 2                                                        1700
 3  775                  Running an SCMO service has its
 4     downside, too.  We are not recognized as broadcasters. 
 5     The card book which lists all radio and television
 6     stations have repeatedly turned us down for listing. 
 7     Consequently, no major advertising agencies with their
 8     head offices in east know of us.  Although SCMO can
 9     boast of a very dedicated audience.  But because of
10     it's limited service and quality, SCMO in British
11     Columbia faces a problem of a clean signal.  But SCMO
12     is a viable proposition for a community that is
13     growing.
14  776                  Having said that, we feel it also
15     needs to be regulated.  We feel the Commission has to
16     pay a little more attention to what is being said on
17     air through these broadcasts.  There is a Surrey-based
18     radio station and many of the presenters have talked
19     about it.  Carried by a Canadian broadcaster, the
20     Knowledge Network, beamed to Bellingham and bounced
21     back to Lower Mainland.  I wonder if open threats were
22     issued on a regular radio station, or for that matter,
23     on a SCMO service with slogans like "death to all Jews"
24     or "death to all Christians" would it have been
25     tolerated.  It cannot be a mere coincidence that a man


 1     who was continuously threatened in that Surrey-based
 2     SCMO service was assassinated last year.
 3  777                  In the world of DTH, it would
 4     probably be a viable proposition to give major
 5     communities unilingual service.  Our radio station is
 6     poised to embark on such a platform, as we have
 7     outgrown our SCMO waveband.
 8  778                  Coming to my second love in life,
 9     television, broadcasting, I would like to say that
10     Rogers, with its multicultural channel has been serving
11     the Lower Mainland communities adequately.  The Rogers
12     multicultural channel is in it's 19th year of broadcast
13     and will be completing its 20th year in October this
14     year.  The efforts they have put into serving the needs
15     of the Lower Mainland is commendable.  I am of the
16     opinion that it is high time this channel became
17     commercial, period, dot.
18  779                  Its strict guidelines make it
19     difficult for the producers to make ends meet. 
20     Producers on this channel subsidize their programs with
21     the hope that one fine day it would be deregulated. 
22     With Rogers latest change of program policy, it is
23     making it even more difficult to produce local
24     programming.
25  780                  For the past 19 years, I have


 1     produced programming on the Rogers multicultural
 2     channel and the current format of the station, which is
 3     trying to attract non-ethnics to the channel, is 180
 4     degree turn, different from the format that the
 5     audiences were used to for years.  I am of the belief
 6     that it's current format is losing its dedicated
 7     old-time viewers.  I am forced to think if this channel
 8     was a commercial ventures, would Rogers still divide
 9     the programming block and eliminate programs that
10     command a higher viewership?
11  781                  An estimated 10,000 signatures went
12     to Rogers at the cancellation of block programming for
13     the South Asian community.  That speaks volumes for
14     that program.
15  782                  Currently, there are nine producers
16     vying for the South Asian market share.  The rate war
17     has brought not only the quality, but also the
18     viewership down.  It is unheard of in any broadcasting
19     undertaking that a service provider would encourage
20     in-house rivalry by having more than one producer per
21     language.  I understand even CFMT has one producer per
22     language.
23  783                  Your question regarding a national
24     ethnic television network, its need and viability needs
25     to be looked into carefully.  We feel that there should


 1     be a stand-alone unilingual ethnic services for those
 2     languages that can sustain themselves.  For example,
 3     the Chinese service has two specialty channels, one for
 4     the Chinese language alone and one with 50 percent
 5     programming in Chinese.  Similarly, a South Asian
 6     service would be able to sustain itself, but a
 7     multilingual ethnic service for many languages with the
 8     broken half an hour, hour slots, is not viable any
 9     more.
10  784                  Added to that, a national service
11     would not serve the needs of a local community.  The
12     owners of such a service would be in it for money and
13     that will probably come from the English language
14     American programs.
15  785                  Ethnic concentration in major cities
16     differ from one another.  In Vancouver, Chinese and
17     South Asians are the biggest ethnic groups, whereas the
18     currently licensed ethnic station in Toronto has only
19     five hours of programming for the South Asian
20     community.  A national ethnic service would be
21     economical for the provider because of the discounted
22     program rates it would be able to acquire with services
23     in Toronto and the rest of Canada.  But we feel it
24     might short-change the ethnic communities in the Lower
25     Mainland and other parts of Canada.


 1  786                  National ethnic licence must
 2     implement and advisory board as noted by presenters
 3     yesterday evening, as well. 
 4  787                  With that, I end my presentation.  If
 5     you have any questions, I would like to answer them.
 6  788                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms Datt. 
 7     I don't have any questions, but I have a point of
 8     clarification, and I'll also check with staff.
 9  789                  When we asked about the possibility
10     of a national ethnic network, I believe we were
11     thinking along the lines of something like a CTV which
12     would link -- or multilingual or ethnic stations in
13     various communities with some common programming and
14     some shared programming.  Is that...
15  790                  MR. JONES:  The question that's in
16     the Public Notice is open-ended.  So there are
17     obviously a variety of models and I would take
18     Commissioner Grauer's question to be:  If one were to
19     imagine a model with independent affiliates providing
20     locally relevant programming, would your concerns be
21     the ones that you've raised?  Is that...
22  791                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  And more to
23     -- I guess in my own way, I think of it as a specialty
24     service if it's one national service beaming the same
25     thing to everybody, as opposed to a network being a


 1     group of independents that might share some
 2     programming.
 3  792                  MS DATT:  Well, in that case, a
 4     service which would have networks throughout the
 5     country --
 6  793                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Or stations.
 7  794                  MS DATT:  Or stations would be much
 8     better.  I think then the local component can be
 9     preserved and it would also enhance the national
10     network.  I'm not opposed to that.  That is
11     progression.
12  795                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
13     much.  Commissioner Cardozo has a question.
14  796                  COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Maybe first I
15     can just add to the timing of this.  What we said about
16     a year ago, we had a hearing on whether there should be
17     additional national networks and it came out of Global
18     wanting to be a national network.  And one of the
19     presentations we had was from Rogers Broadcasting, who
20     raised the issue of a multicultural national network. 
21     We also had a request for a national aboriginal network
22     and we heard that application a couple of months ago,
23     we haven't had a decision on that yet.
24  797                  But with regards to the multicultural
25     network, what we said was after this process which


 1     we're going through right now, we would at that point
 2     be ready to entertain applications and I think we'll
 3     then, out of what people have to say, such as what
 4     you're saying right now, those are the kinds of things
 5     that will go into giving us some kind of framework as
 6     to which direction we think we should go or maybe we
 7     won't be specific.
 8  798                  But in terms of chronology, once we
 9     finish with this process, we'll then be looking at, you
10     know, Rogers or anybody else might come in with such an
11     application.
12  799                  I just had a question on the SCMO
13     issue and I just want to understand it a bit better.
14  800                  Your service, you're providing an
15     SCMO service through another licensee and in order for
16     people to get your service, they have to have an
17     additional gizmo to get it.  Right?
18  801                  MS DATT:  That's right.
19  802                  COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And is that
20     one for each radio?
21  803                  MS DATT:  It is.
22  804                  COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And is it only
23     radios in houses as opposed to cars?
24  805                  MS DATT:  Well, because of our -- the
25     way Vancouver is, ups and downs and hills and all that,


 1     it's very difficult to listen to a SCMO in a car.  You
 2     can in certain areas, but it's usually for the house.
 3  806                  Some people have it, like the taxi
 4     drivers I know, all of them have RimJhim in their
 5     taxies and they listen to it, because nighttime is the
 6     time that they need to listen to music.
 7  807                  It is each radio, is a separate unit. 
 8     As you know --
 9  808                  COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  It's a
10     separate radio from your regular radio?
11  809                  MS DATT:  Yes, it is.
12  810                  COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Right.
13  811                  MS DATT:  Because the SCMO is on
14     kiloHertz frequency, which is very low.  So to be able
15     to hear the kiloHertz frequency, it needs to be
16     boosted, so a regular radio does not have kiloHertz
17     frequencies, it has megaHertz.  And so SCMO radios
18     separate the kiloHertz frequency from an existing FM
19     station.  Like, for example, we are on CJJR, so it
20     separates that frequency, 92 kiloHertz and it enhances
21     it, so that you can hear it on the radio.
22  812                  COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  And in
23     terms of cost, what is the average cost of such a
24     radio?
25  813                  MS DATT:  When I first started in


 1     1987, it used to cost us $120 U.S., because there was
 2     no organization that was or other company that used to
 3     build them here.  We went to Western Diversification
 4     and proposed to them that we could build them here, but
 5     I don't think our presentation was that great.  So they
 6     threw it out of the window.
 7  814                  So we had to, for the first four to
 8     five years, buy the radios from America, but now, every
 9     technologically alert man or woman can sort of make a
10     SCMO radio.  It's not that difficult.
11  815                  COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  And you
12     can attach it to, if you've got a $10,000 sound system
13     in your house, can you attach this system to it?
14  816                  MS DATT:  Yes.  Yes, you can.  But
15     with the fear of the warranty on that unit being void,
16     because once you open the unit and you mess around with
17     it, you would be voiding the warranty.
18  817                  We have come up with a little unit
19     that rebroadcasts within the house and cannot go beyond
20     40 feet because of the Department of Communication
21     regulations.  That has given older people a better
22     chance to sort of listen to the radio in their bedrooms
23     and also in the kitchen or wherever.
24  818                  COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  All right. 
25     Thanks very much.


 1  819                  MS DATT:  Thank you.
 2  820                  COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you,
 3     Madame Chair.
 4  821                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms Datt.
 5  822                  THE SECRETARY:  Our next presenter is
 6     Charan Gill.
 8  823                  MR. GILL:  Thank you, Madame Chair.
 9  824                  I am representing Progressive
10     Intercultural Community Services Society, which is a
11     non-profit society, helps people for job counselling,
12     ESO, resume writing, information referral and helping
13     them to adjust in this community and how to integrate
14     properly in the community.
15  825                  So our efforts have been more or less
16     community based on the local issues, which are quite
17     common, like any other citizen, under-employment,
18     unemployment, racism, barriers to employment, all those
19     issues we deal with in a small way.  We have about 32
20     staff which is engaged in helping people to cope and
21     adjust in the new environment.
22  826                  And in this ethnic media, I frankly
23     see recently the change of tune, more song and dance,
24     more recreational activities than any social affairs or
25     any education, like previously mentioned by various


 1     speakers in terms of parent/child conflict because of
 2     the changing values, emerging issues, emerging needs of
 3     the young people, seniors who need some place to rest
 4     in their later lives.  It's nice to have a great
 5     families of -- extended families who look after seniors
 6     and other people, but there are some who fall into the
 7     cracks, need some support.
 8  827                  So we are engaged in social housing
 9     and other activities to prepare ourselves to serve our
10     community better, that they can enjoy a quality of life
11     which all citizens deserve.
12  828                  But unfortunately, as is mentioned by
13     Shushma Datt and a few others, there are issues with
14     the ethnic media which are very serious.
15  829                  First, anybody can buy a radio
16     station and put any garbage on the airwaves, like
17     sometime they escape because it's coming from the
18     United States, this creates loss of disharmony and
19     disunity in the community, a very poisonous
20     environment, which results in assassinations, beatings
21     and many other things which are not acceptable to us as
22     a community who serve people to cope and adjust in the
23     whole society.  It's not helping them.  It's taking
24     them back to the old issues back home.
25  830                  I don't say that we should not be


 1     listening to home issues, I think it's a great.  We
 2     must listen to our background because we are related to
 3     that, we enjoy that.  But not all the time.  Not all
 4     our energy should go back home in listening to those
 5     issues, which nothing we can do over here.
 6  831                  So my interest would be with the
 7     ethnic media that they must designate 20 percent time
 8     for social affairs, for people's education, giving them
 9     direction, giving them counselling through airwaves,
10     advertising a variety of community programs which exist
11     in the society to help them out should they need help.
12  832                  There's issues of substance abuse,
13     drug abuse, wife abuse which should be dealt with on
14     the media issues and discussion, debates, bring
15     educated people to talk about those issues.
16  833                  Demographic is increasing, it's time
17     is overdue for the CRTC to come and get input from the
18     communities.  The South Asian community, which I mean
19     people originated from the Indian subcontinent, are
20     almost over 300,000, 400,000 around that, in B.C.  And
21     visible minority communities are over, almost 19
22     percent in B.C. right now.  We rarely see our faces on
23     the mainstream media.  We rarely see the positive
24     stories on the mainstream media, very -- we have to
25     work hard to get our word out.  But negative stories,


 1     always first news, headlines on the front line on the
 2     local Vancouver Sun and Province papers.  You can
 3     easily see that.
 4  834                  We don't seem to have any control on
 5     that.  We seem to be very powerless that the
 6     negativities spread out by this mainstream media is
 7     allowing people to stereotype us, that we're all like
 8     this.  They don't see us as individuals, but see as a
 9     group of people who are violent, who are criminals, who
10     fight with each other, who may be willing to kill each
11     other.  That kind of image is being portrayed, which is
12     horrible.
13  835                  If we have ethnic media, whereby we
14     have some control, not the control by some rich folks
15     who can buy the station and put somebody who have no
16     generalistic knowledge, he doesn't even know about ABC
17     of announcements, and I have been an announcer, who
18     cannot speak the language properly, own Punjabi
19     language, forget about English, and spill hatred on the
20     media.  And we need to have some control.  The CRTC
21     must be very heavily coming down on those stations to
22     really cancel their licenses out because they are
23     really harming the communities.
24  836                  And some folks, who would make money
25     out of this hatred, they sell hatred and make money


 1     through ads, and there's too many ads, rather than any
 2     good substance for debates and discussions which
 3     community can benefit.
 4  837                  My focus will be how ethnic media --
 5     how you are going to portray or control the media which
 6     will be benefitting, making harmonious relationships
 7     within the communities and even providing intracultural
 8     relationship, knowing because we have 90 to 100
 9     different communities here now, we got to know our
10     values and belief systems and respecting each other and
11     getting to understand, which is not done.  Very,
12     very -- we had a time that Shushma Datt's TV one time,
13     maybe do community things.  And she lost that, I think
14     to song and dance, because they sell, they give some
15     kind of drugs, some kind of recreational activity at
16     home, sitting at home.  But it's only short-term, it
17     doesn't go anywhere.
18  838                  What happens after that, the life is
19     the same, the reality is there.  So they don't touch
20     the life or the reality by providing them with
21     education, about their rights.  It takes ten years for
22     people, many, many people, before they get to know they
23     have certain rights in this country.  They think --
24     they compare with the old country, that they have the
25     same rights.  Even the wages, when people ask for


 1     wages, agriculture workers, I worked with, and they're
 2     told, "Don't speak about the wages, you can be
 3     deported", and they believe it.  Those issues really,
 4     we have to get to them early, not allowing them to wait
 5     ten years.
 6  839                  All immigrants, when we come here in
 7     this country, we lose five, seven years.  Be fumbling
 8     around, we go up and down, we start from bottom ladder
 9     and going up again after four or five years.  We
10     always, most of us have lost five, seven years of
11     lifetime, education and stuff, because we have to
12     reeducate, restamped by the Canadian educational
13     standards, to compete in the job market, otherwise we
14     won't get jobs.  Our doctors, the many people with the
15     foreign credentials are working as janitors, taxi
16     drivers and they're quality people, but they are not
17     allowed to practice, who already have practised 15 to
18     20 years in the old countries.
19  840                  We want to raise those issues in the
20     media.  In the ethnic media and get people together to
21     say that this is our issue, this issue of
22     under-employment, why be as first immigrant when you
23     come they were well qualified, how come we make so much
24     less money than others?  How come you never see any
25     visible minority up in the boards, up level higher up


 1     in the governments, the ADM, Deputy Minister -- you
 2     don't see those.
 3  841                  So those are the -- those are the
 4     issues I would like to see media representing us,
 5     allowing us by guaranteeing 20 to 25 percent social
 6     affairs material, which relates to people's life, right
 7     here, there are issues, local issues and some -- so
 8     forth.
 9  842                  And definitely the program quality is
10     deteriorating, because it's not to deliver service to
11     ethnic community is to make a buck.  Most of the radio
12     stations, the TVs, their priority is who will --
13     anybody who will put in the ad, they will have a time
14     for radio station, too.  It doesn't matter what they
15     have to say, they can spill garbage there, but they can
16     have a time because they're selling ads to that station
17     and they force them to come on the airwaves and say a
18     few things, which are not -- never, very rarely
19     profitable to the community or helpful to the community
20     at all.
21  843                  Accountability.  There must be some
22     accountability what they say on the airwaves and
23     there's none.  I would say the communities totally
24     falling apart, helpless, getting angry, getting mad. 
25     Some lunatic fringe over there listening to these


 1     garbage could kill somebody, has killed somebody, could
 2     hurt somebody, could attack some good people who are
 3     trying to tell them, give them some direction.  But the
 4     fanatics may say, "No, no.  They're wrong kind of
 5     people, so get them".  Some lunatic may act on those
 6     emotions later on someday, so I'm really afraid of
 7     that.  Is it happening in the community and it may --
 8     it may continue until you come with a heavy stick.
 9  844                  And bring Canadian that don't allow
10     ethnic media to be a separate in the corner, allow them
11     to meet the Canadian standards and ethics and respect
12     Charter of Rights of freedoms, freedom of speech, all
13     those kind of things.  Bring them up to the poor, not
14     allowing them to slip away and do harm to our
15     communities, to our children of our people in here.
16  845                  So my hunch will be that the
17     demographics, especially South Asian, we're the second
18     largest, and other visible minority, does warrant that
19     we have some control on our destiny, some control what
20     we say to the people and we can reach out to people in
21     terms of giving a positive spin to intercultural
22     relationship, giving the multicultural value systems,
23     which we adhere to, which we respect to and all those
24     things.  We can convey those messages.  We are not
25     given a time, we are not allowed to have a time,


 1     because it costs quite a bit to get a license, all
 2     normal people can't get it.  They can't run the
 3     station.
 4  846                  Community-based issues should be
 5     given one hour or two hours to do the community work. 
 6     And of course, the CRTC has to be closely regulating
 7     and monitoring these issues.  There are tapes which are
 8     in Punjabi, Chinese or other languages.  People say
 9     things, they must deposit to CRTC that they can be,
10     because we folks out there cannot monitor them, we
11     don't have the time.  We cannot tape each and
12     everything what they say, but we -- if we have that,
13     people tell us that the garbage was said, wrong thing
14     was said, insulting remarks were made to somebody,
15     somebody would -- did very hurtful things to someone. 
16     Then, if the tapes are deposited with the CRTC, then
17     they get to the point and say, "Look, you have it. Such
18     and such date, let's get it" and translated and punish
19     those culprits.  Otherwise they won't stop it.
20  847                  So the overall -- my presentation, I
21     would like to say in terms of demographic, in terms of
22     priority, if you want the human welfare, if you want
23     the immigrant to settle in this country properly and
24     enjoy a quality life, enjoy the life which they deserve
25     and the full citizenship rights, then I would ask you


 1     support ethnic media, which is positive, which is
 2     trying to create unity, harmony and trying to direct
 3     people to become a part and parcel of this largest
 4     community and be a part of -- quality part and be a
 5     contributing citizens.  Those are the issues at stake
 6     now, because people are so angry, they don't feel like
 7     working, they are upset, they think they don't have any
 8     power.
 9  848                  So I would suggest to CRTC, give some
10     directions what kind of program and one should have. 
11     Not to go their ways and do whatever they want and take
12     their radio station, their personal property and do
13     spill garbage, whatever they want to do.  It's really
14     hurtful, it's hurting.
15  849                  And the other issues which I want to
16     say in terms of priority, bring to people in their
17     adjustment, settlement issues, the issues of day to
18     day, they face in terms of unemployment, like any other
19     community, how to resolve those issues, how to resolve
20     issues of parents and children's conflict, how we
21     support those families who are in dire need.  Those are
22     the issues I would like to see happening and I will
23     like to see CRTC given some kind of directions, a
24     positive direction towards that end.
25  850                  But I think the media at this time,


 1     is not serving the ethnic community very well.  It's
 2     not serving it at all because of lack of control.
 3  851                  That's all I need to say, Madame
 4     Chairperson and all my notes are all over here and
 5     there.  But --
 6  852                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, you've made
 7     your case very eloquently.
 8  853                  MR. GILL:  Thank you.
 9  854                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
10  855                  MR. GILL:  I have the extra letter --
11     which I didn't want to go into too much, what we do.  I
12     have some -- go on more to you.  That you can have a
13     look at it, what we stand for, what we do.
14  856                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
15     much.  I think we have a copy, do we? 
16  857                  Madame Secretary...?
17  858                  THE SECRETARY:  Our next presenter
18     this afternoon is Balwant Gill.
20  859                  MR. GILL:  Good evening, ladies and
21     gentlemen.
22  860                  My name is Balwant Singh Gill, I'm
23     President of Gruman Sikh Temple and I am spokesperson
24     of 35 societies throughout B.C.
25  861                  Previous speakers have covered lots


 1     of my points, like Shushma Datt and Charan Paul Gill. 
 2     I will say little about what they already have covered,
 3     but I had some other points to raise.
 4  862                  Like, ethnic programming.  We do not
 5     get proper and enough time for the ethnic broadcasting. 
 6     Our time is given when the audience is away, they're
 7     working or they're in schools or colleges, universities
 8     or they're sleeping.
 9  863                  And I have a concern about side band
10     broadcasters.  A side band broadcasters have no
11     principles and they do not follow any regulations. 
12     Side band broadcasters have created more problems for
13     the community.  They openly contravene guidelines and
14     rules.  People are insighted and poisonous propaganda,
15     tries to promote violence in the community.
16  864                  People are sick and tired of the
17     violence -- talks, the community has complained many
18     times in writing to the CRTC, et cetera, have no --
19     paid any attention to our address.  Some of them, the
20     side band broadcasters, they're operating in their
21     basements without any license, without paying any dues,
22     they're breaking all the rules and regulations. 
23     They're promoting hatred against certain people,
24     individuals, certain groups, certain organizations,
25     even life threats to their families, openly, publicly,


 1     every single night, five hours a day.  And we have
 2     written to the CRTC so many times in the last couple of
 3     years.  Until now, no action has been taken.
 4  865                  I think they are waiting until
 5     somebody gets killed and some of their family member
 6     get killed, then they will take action against those
 7     people who are abusing the system.
 8  866                  So you are not doing proper job and
 9     you not seem to be working for the peace-loving ethnic
10     community.
11  867                  TV and radio control is in the hands
12     of the non-ethnic, BCTV, your TV, Global TV, et cetera,
13     they have no ethnic people in their management and
14     administrative decision-making positions. 
15     Multicultural programs are just a name.  Indo-Canadian
16     community had been fragmented by the subtle tactics of
17     Roger and CRTC.  We pay the taxes and contribute in the
18     society and we do not get what non-ethnics get.  It
19     seems you have made a -- created ethnic and non-ethnic
20     division.
21  868                  So we need more ethnic programming,
22     more air time and more people should be employed in the
23     management of the radio and television stations.
24  869                  I will say -- I will go a little
25     further more to Roger multicultural TV programs. 


 1     There's very little programs to the religious knowledge
 2     to be through our -- religious temples, churches, to
 3     our kids.  They are going away from our temples, our
 4     churches.  So there's no time at all for these
 5     religious thing to be broadcast for our children.
 6  870                  So one more thing I will say again
 7     about the side band broadcasters, they should be
 8     controlled by the CRTC and they should be policing by
 9     the CRTC thoroughly.  We have hundreds of hundreds tape
10     and we'll provide it to the authorities, those tapes,
11     translated into English and written, but no action has
12     been taken since the last two years.
13  871                  So I'm strongly asking from the CRTC
14     to look into those issues, especially from the side
15     band broadcasters.
16  872                  Thank you.
17  873                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
18     much, Mr. Gill.  You, too, have made your case very
19     eloquently.  We've heard your concerns and are taking
20     them into consideration.
21  874                  Thank you.
22  875                  MR. GILL:  Thank you.
23  876                  THE SECRETARY:  Our next presenter
24     this afternoon is Paul Gill.
25                                                        1730


 2  877                  MR. GILL:  Thank you.
 3  878                  First of all I want to thank the
 4     Commission for giving me the time to present something. 
 5     I had not applied for it, and it was just a spur of the
 6     moment, I had just accompanied Mr. Gill to these
 7     hearings and it's given me an opportunity to convey to
 8     you what had been simmering inside me over the last
 9     year from a personal experience.  And that is the
10     question of the side band radios, whereby they are not
11     regulated by anybody and it is a personal experience. 
12     I'll take a minute to relate it.
13  879                  It happened to be unfortunately make
14     a call to this talk-show host in Surrey running on
15     upnots and Geet (ph) radio station which is -- through
16     the Knowledge Network as broadcast out of Bellingham
17     and happened to disagree with his point of view.  Upon
18     which he started criticizing me personally, after I had
19     made the call and then started looking at, saying this
20     person should come to the radio station and I said,
21     "Okay.  Well, I --" I went, he was not there he
22     broadcast out of his basement.  I called from the
23     station and said, "Well, you were asking, saying I
24     should show up.  Here I am, you're not here".  He said
25     "Well, call me later"  I said, "Well, that's enough."


 1  880                  I left it there.  This individual
 2     started asking on the air, saying wherever I am, I
 3     should be calling him and I -- not only he did not only
 4     stop there, he called my home and announced on the air,
 5     saying, "Well, I've called Mr. Gill's home, he's not
 6     home yet and we will try him again".
 7  881                  And sure enough he called twice again
 8     and got me the third time at my home.  And this is a
 9     talk show host phoning here and saying, "Okay.  What do
10     you want to say now?"  And after I'd given and said,
11     "You know, I disagree with you.  I differ with you, but
12     you shouldn't have called me at home", he stopped,
13     after I had hung up, he stopped any commercials from
14     that program, any advertisements, the time it was
15     taking, and he announced on the air that today we are
16     just going to call and talk and started, you know, from
17     his own group of friends, taking those calls, and
18     criticizing what I had said and making things like, you
19     know, people like me are zeros and not to worry about
20     this, that these are people that wear red underwear and
21     you know, those tapes are there.  Maybe we can
22     translate them and give it to you.
23  882                  So one of the recommendations I want
24     is that these talk show hosts that are there, that
25     their tapes be deposited and they should also to the


 1     CRTC submit an English translation of their programming
 2     so that, you know, you can monitor them, what kind of
 3     garbage these people are doing and their -- can be
 4     regulated.  And certainly, there should be ethical
 5     standards set up that should, the CRTC should have an
 6     ethical commission whereby it should set up, for the
 7     programmers, that, you know, that they should have
 8     ethical screens set up by the CRTC so that these radio
 9     stations or others that meet those ethical screens.
10  883                  Having aired my beef now, to answer
11     the questions that you have put before -- the question
12     that you have put forward and the answers that you're
13     looking for, yes, I personally feel there should be a
14     national network which should carry on ethnic
15     programming.  There is a need for it, there is not
16     adequate ethnic programming at the moment.  Whatever
17     there is, the competition is so much among it that
18     the -- people are trying to buy it on BCTV or, you know
19     any -- has gone up so high that they can hardly produce
20     the quality of programming that need to be there.
21  884                  Those ethnic programs need to look
22     at, you know, the medical knowledge or the issues of
23     youth, the issues of seniors.
24     --- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques
25  885                  MR. GILL:  I can't see now.


 1  886                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Just wait until
 2     they flip the switch.
 3  887                  MR. GILL:  It's just like - this is
 4     an indication --
 5  888                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  We won't count this
 6     as part of your time.
 7  889                  MR. GILL:  This is how, you know, the
 8     ethnic media has been operating in the dark, had been
 9     kept in the dark.  This instance can --
10     --- Laughter / Rires
11  890                  MR. GILL:  And you know, certainly
12     the current affairs, part of it, what is going on in
13     Canada, what is happening?  And I think strongly that
14     CBC or others or the channel that carries the coverage
15     of the House of Commons, it should be broadcast in more
16     than, you know, just the French and the English
17     language, so that, you know, seniors and others can
18     understand what is happening on a daily basis, what are
19     the Parliamentarians doing and they can understand the
20     issues that, you know, are being listened to in Canada.
21  891                  The issues of, you know, what is the
22     big deal about Quebec.  I mean, you know, you try to
23     explain it to a 70-year old man from India who doesn't
24     know and he doesn't understand what is, you know, what
25     is the issue of, you know, why they are asking for a


 1     vote, you know.  What is Lucien Bouchard saying?  What
 2     is, you know, Jean Chretien's position on that?  And
 3     certainly that would help it and you know, those
 4     current affairs, it will educate to us from coast to
 5     coast and all ethnic groups about, what is Canada about
 6     and you know, where we are going with it.
 7  892                  And Mr. Gill raised the issue of, you
 8     know, more ethnic people in today's -- and I'd
 9     certainly think that, you know, there should be.  One
10     of the issues, when you review their licenses and
11     reissue them, the job equity on these networks should
12     be one of the screens or one of the criteria you should
13     be looking at how much job equity these radio stations
14     or television stations have been promoting into their
15     upper echelons, because if you have people in senior
16     management positions or broadcasting ethnic people from
17     various -- they will have some impact on the policies
18     and the guidelines of those stations.
19  893                  And it should not only there, as for
20     it going into, you know, but should there be a priority
21     on the government of Canadian ethnoculture programs,
22     yes, definitely.  We shouldn't be importing all of it. 
23     It has to be developed because the issues that are
24     raised by the ethnic youth that was referred here
25     earlier, in the hearings, the have to be aired, they


 1     have to be conveyed.  The programs have to be that the
 2     youth here and the -- and their parents and
 3     grandparents are entrusted at the same time and they
 4     can -- all willing to watch those programs, not that
 5     the youth are willing to watch a different program and
 6     the seniors want a different one.  That you have to be.
 7  894                  And what do you know, the world
 8     becoming a global village and the global trade it
 9     tides, are you -- to have to understand the programs
10     and the needs in those countries where we -- Canada is
11     trading, so it helps when these people, the youth go
12     out and to do trade in those countries, to promote
13     Canada and Canadian products, they have a better
14     understanding of the cultures of those and we do not
15     make mistakes.  Like one of the trade missions into
16     China where the report that such and such placed and
17     has his children studying in Canada, which is not
18     viewed as very good in China.
19  895                  So, you know, those issues that, you
20     know, when people are going out here, they're not being
21     briefed what they have a genuine understanding of those
22     cultures, so trade is done there.  And certainly that
23     network would help it and thereby also create to a
24     vibrant economy of Canada whereby you're promoting
25     these and certainly as far as, you know, the


 1     commercialization or the question was asked earlier
 2     that will they for it?  Right now, in that ethnic
 3     newspapers and others, there are BCTV or others,
 4     they're advertising in there. They'll advertise it. 
 5     They see their base, where there is that, you know,
 6     what -- who are their consumers?  Ethnic people are the
 7     consumers.
 8  896                  If you take the Lower Mainland, I
 9     think it's a good 30 to 40 percent.  You could qualify
10     people into one ethnic group other than, you know, the
11     two main major groups, you could qualify into those
12     areas.  So certainly that has to be looked at and not
13     taking any more time.  I think you should look at that.
14  897                  But once again, I want to convey very
15     strongly that these side band radios should be
16     regulated, they should have some ethics.  There should
17     be ethical screens put on those so that people are not
18     frustrated and they do not, you know, agonize over it. 
19     I mean, you know, and boil inside and take some drastic
20     actions.
21  898                  Thank you very much.
22  899                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
23     much.
24  900                  THE SECRETARY:  Our next presenter
25     this evening is Darshan Aujla.


 2  901                  MR. AUJLA:  Good evening, ladies and
 3     gentlemen.  I'm grateful to CRTC and all of you for
 4     listening to me.
 5  902                  First of all, I'll introduce myself. 
 6     My name, she has already stated.  I'm Aujla Darshan
 7     Singh.
 8  903                  I have served over 37 years with
 9     distinction in India, Indian army, retired as a senior
10     officer, that is in the rank of Brigadier General.  I
11     was director of my own Corps, which was Army Physical
12     Corps.
13  904                  I come into this country in nineties,
14     early nineties -- 1990 and since then I've been doing a
15     lot of research works.
16  905                  One of the earlier speakers, has
17     stated that it's difficult to get a job over here.  And
18     I will state, in 1960s when this country was short of
19     education teachers, the teachers from India were
20     imported and they were getting the job in the next day. 
21     And their education and everything was accepted in this
22     country.  And today, a person may come highly educated,
23     a doctor, anybody, that education is not accepted
24     there -- here, sorry.  So, that is one point.
25  906                  Which can go through people through


 1     radio, TV, which is a good medium of communication. 
 2     And TV is doing good service.  But at the same time,
 3     let us say today you are asking views of people, but if
 4     this team thinks that whatever we are saying is going
 5     to be a personal thing, and you are going to answer as
 6     to why this is not done, why that is not done, then it
 7     will get bogged down here only.
 8  907                  What my request is, whatever are
 9     suggestions should be taken in the right spirit and
10     implemented as far as possible, because today, one of
11     my earlier colleagues has said, we are coming very
12     close to each other.  And the media is serving us, TV
13     and radio is serving us.  And if the right type of
14     information is not given to people, that is education
15     or current affairs regarding our own country, that is
16     Canada, or the country from where we have come is not
17     given to people at the right time, quickly, then we
18     could well be deficient of that.
19  908                  I'm only going to confirm the facts
20     given to all of us today by earlier speakers.  I'm just
21     going to put them in a brief form and state:
22  909                  Ethnic groups need a lot of
23     entertainment, education and knowledge about current
24     affairs.  And it should be conveyed to them as much as
25     possible.  A lot of time should be given to them and it


 1     should be given in such a way that the majority of
 2     people can listen to that.  They are not at work and
 3     they have not gone to sleep.
 4  910                  For that matter, you have -- no, you
 5     have heard Shushma Datt, she's got 20 years experience
 6     of radio, TV is going to complete about 12 years as
 7     completed, she's got a lot of experience and it is well
 8     tried, the unit, which is giving good service to our
 9     community.
10  911                  But there are other units like
11     sub-carriers who are promoting violence in our
12     community, hatred, wrong propaganda, to meet their own
13     ends.  They should be checked.  As Paul Gill has just
14     said, there should be proper monitoring of those
15     people.  And for that matter, every person who comes on
16     the air or goes onto the TV should give -- should keep
17     a record of what they have announced, and it should be
18     maintained in English or French or English/French,
19     both.  Then only we can be saved, otherwise we are in a
20     big problem.
21  912                  Then problems like education about
22     other cultures, we're talking about our own culture,
23     that's okay.  Within our society, but outside, nobody
24     knows what this turban is.  Here comes a small little
25     thing which may explain to all of my people present,


 1     once roaming around in Reno City in U.S.A., somebody
 2     was after a colleague of mine and he was saying to ask,
 3     "Are you badly hurt?"  He said, "Why you said this?" 
 4     He said, "You've tied a big bandage on your head". 
 5     Because he didn't know what this turban is.  That
 6     fellow thought this was a bandage.
 7  913                  And that is what happened in 1993 in
 8     Surrey.  People just wanted to get into some area, the
 9     other group was saying, "You take off your turbans." 
10     These people are saying, "No, we will not take off
11     turbans."  This was a lack of education about the other
12     culture.  After that, multicultural association was
13     contacted and we had four to five workshops just to
14     explain them, what is our culture, what is your
15     culture.
16  914                  Some of the earlier speakers have
17     said about racism.  Even until to date, although it is
18     less, people shout at us.  Unless we speak, we can
19     convey ourselves in English or something, people say,
20     "This person has no -- with turban and beard, no, he
21     doesn't speak English".  They ask you ten times.
22  915                  But if, through our media, TV and
23     radio, we continue educating people who are living in
24     this country about the other cultures, then people will
25     be living at peace.  And that is our aim.


 1  916                  Actually, we're as -- through TV and
 2     radio, we entertain people, we also educate them. 
 3     Educate them about the substance abuse, educate them
 4     about the religions, to teach them about other
 5     religions, all such things should be done.  So for our
 6     own culture, Indian sub-countrymen, culture is
 7     concerned, I during the last few years, I'm not trying
 8     to praise Shushma Datt just because she's sitting here,
 9     but I am saying it sincerely that she has done a good
10     service to our community.  And it is a pleasure to
11     listen to her program, the radio program which is 24
12     hours working and also the TV.
13  917                  But then, we find Rogers digital
14     network is reducing her time.  And as stated earlier
15     again, some people who can buy the programs from him,
16     it's time to give more to them.  That type of imbalance
17     should be checked.  And I would say, we are
18     peace-loving people, and we should be allowed to live
19     like that and the propaganda, giving -- to certain
20     individuals for the sake of certain people to meet
21     their own demands, should be checked.
22  918                  With this I'll not take any more
23     time.  I will, once again, thank the people sitting
24     around me.  I'm very grateful that I have been given
25     time to talk to you in their midst.


 1  919                  Thank you so much.
 2  920                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 3     much.
 4  921                  And I think this concludes this
 5     panel.  What I'd just like to say is, I'd like to thank
 6     all of you very much for taking the time to come here
 7     today.  I know a lot of you have gone to a lot of
 8     trouble to share your views with us.
 9  922                  It's very important to us in terms of
10     our deliberations and considerations and
11     decision-making that we have the views from Canadians
12     across this country and as we're saying more often,
13     most often is that our decisions and our work is as
14     well informed as we are, and you've been very helpful
15     today in increasing our level of understanding of the
16     issues your community is facing.
17  923                  Thank you.  We'll take a 15 minute
18     break.
19                                                        1750
20     --- Recess / Pause
21  924                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madame
22     Secretary...?
23  925                  THE SECRETARY:  Thank you,
24     Commissioner Grauer.
25  926                  I'd like to just read off some names


 1     and if you can wave or smile or nod or something to let
 2     me know that you're around the table.
 3  927                  We have Ngoc Tran Pham, Marta Gloria
 4     Delavega, Sikandar Azam, John Nurany, Gabriel Yiu,
 5     Magnus Thyvold, Mohammed Koya, Scott MacRae, James
 6     Chung, Nathan Cho and Mohammed Janief.
 7  928                  Thank you very much.
 8  929                  Then our first presenter on this
 9     panel will be Ngoc Tran Pham.  Go ahead whenever you're
10     ready.
12     --- Background noise / bruit de fond
13  930                  MS PHAM:  So if you can't hear me,
14     please wave and don't sit there and just get angry. 
15     Anyhow, I'd like to apologize because I'm fighting a
16     cold and I've been coughing for the last two, three
17     weeks and I hope that I don't cough too much and ruin
18     your tapes tonight.
19  931                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  It'll be the bells
20     welcoming you.
21     --- Laughter / Rires
22  932                  MS PHAM:  Oh, that's good.
23  933                  Okay.  Yes, my name is Ngoc Tran
24     Pham, and I'm a Vietnamese Canadian.  I came to Canada
25     about 15 years ago and I've -- I lived in Canada, I


 1     lived in Ottawa since 1983, not 1993 like it says on
 2     your sheets.  And I moved to Vancouver about two and a
 3     half years ago.
 4  934                  I'll just tell you a little bit about
 5     my personal background, besides that.  I've --
 6     currently I'm working as a coordinator of Vietnamese
 7     Community Services and in particular, I am looking at,
 8     with my project, I am looking at the effectiveness of
 9     community services that are provided to the Vietnamese
10     Canadian clients in the Greater Vancouver area.  And
11     the areas that we're looking at are health, employment,
12     ESL, youth and family issues.  So it's an ambitious
13     project.
14  935                  I work in an organization --
15     organization called MOSAIC and it's an organization
16     that provides immigrants and refugees to Canada with a
17     settlement and integration needs or services, rather. 
18     I've been an active member of the Vietnamese Canadian
19     community in Ottawa and in Vancouver, probably almost
20     15 years, both professionally and as a volunteer.
21  936                  My contacts with the media, I guess
22     would include eight years volunteering as a host for a
23     Vietnamese radio program in Ottawa, and also I work in
24     collaboration with the local Vietnamese media here in
25     Vancouver.


 1  937                  Let's see, you know, it's interesting
 2     because as I was writing up this, making jot notes for
 3     this presentation tonight, I realized that in a lot of
 4     ways, it seems that there are -- it appears that there
 5     are a lot of similarities between my work and the goals
 6     of the CRTC Public Consultation tonight.  And that is
 7     that, you know, in my project, I and the people that
 8     are working with me, really -- we really examine
 9     services and we look at gaps in services and ways that
10     gaps can be bridged, so that we can better serve our
11     clients and we can work towards further -- furthering
12     the empowerment process for Vietnamese Canadians in the
13     Greater Vancouver area.
14  938                  And it would seem that that is very
15     similar to the goals of the CRTC in that you're looking
16     at ways to -- you're really examining the broadcasting
17     system and looking at whether or not it effectively
18     serves multicultural communities in Canada.  And I
19     think that you're also concerned about the extent to
20     which ethnic voices are being heard and being
21     represented in the media.
22  939                  So I thought that was kind of
23     interesting, that we should have, you know, similar
24     goals, although my goals are more restricted in that I
25     work with only the Vietnamese Canadian community.


 1  940                  Well, now I'll just jump into the
 2     questions that were posed, the three questions
 3     concerning the extent to which, you know, the
 4     broadcasting system adequately services ethnic
 5     communities.  Questions about access and also
 6     developing Canadian ethnocultural services rather than
 7     importing foreign material.
 8  941                  Well, I would have to say that I feel
 9     that the extent to which the current broadcasting
10     system serves ethnic communities is not quite adequate. 
11     And I find that, particularly I think when it comes to
12     the news, I'll just -- well, it seems to me that the
13     media portrays only, as far as, you know, the
14     Vietnamese community is concerned, most often what we
15     see are only negative aspects of the community that get
16     broadcasted.  And as a result, it seems that, you know,
17     that's the way that stereotypes become formed and
18     become perpetuated.
19  942                  For example, you know if you turn on
20     the news and the only time that you hear the Vietnamese
21     Canadian community talked about are, you know,
22     reportings of crime and of gangs and problems, then you
23     know, over a period of time, if this is the only
24     images -- these are the only images that you get, then
25     it's understandable to see how stereotypes can develop


 1     about a certain community.  And you can see how fear
 2     within the mainstream community can get instilled in
 3     people, and also a sense of embarrassment and shame may
 4     become engrained in the community that has been
 5     selected for this type of reporting.
 6  943                  So anyway, that's -- you know, I
 7     think in terms of news reporting, that is something
 8     that could be -- that could be changed and certainly
 9     can be improved upon.
10  944                  Let me just tell you a recent
11     experience that I've had with the news here in
12     Vancouver.  You know, at MOSAIC, we recently received a
13     $20,000 grant to do a -- carry out a youth project and
14     you know, before we received this grant, the proposal
15     was brought up in City Council at one of the meetings
16     and because the agenda and also the minutes of City
17     Council meetings are public knowledge, I guess, the
18     media was able to access this.  So MOSAIC got a whole
19     bunch of phone calls regarding this youth project and
20     it's interesting, the reaction of the local media
21     concerning this project.  And I think it's very telling
22     in a lot of ways, too, because they automatically
23     zeroed in on the fact that -- you know, they said,
24     "Well, you know, we hear that you received this huge
25     grant and to do this project and we understand that you


 1     have a lot of problems, there are a lot of -- you know,
 2     there are youth gangs happening everywhere and a lot of
 3     crime and drop out" and all this stuff, and it seemed
 4     like that was the only thing that they were focusing
 5     on.
 6  945                  And, you know, when they were told
 7     that, "Well, actually, you know, this project is --
 8     yes, we're looking at child interest and barriers that
 9     Vietnamese Canadian youths are facing, but we're also
10     looking at strengths, as well, and we're bringing out
11     really positive aspects of the community and trying to
12     bring that forth so that people become more aware of
13     them."  And you know, these reporters were invited to
14     come to the forum which will be happening, you know,
15     later on.  And they said -- and at that point, you
16     know, it's, I guess, it no longer is a sensational
17     subject, so anyway, nobody wanted to do a story on us
18     any more.
19  946                  So it just goes to show how sometimes
20     we -- sometimes we have our own personal agenda and we
21     would like to portray a community in a certain way and
22     you know, that is harmful, not only to the community
23     concerned, but I think it really is harmful to Canadian
24     society in general because it really -- it distorts the
25     truth about communities.  It lets us -- it doesn't let


 1     us see the multifaceted aspect of all communities.  And
 2     I think that we all stand to lose if that kind of
 3     reporting continues.
 4  947                  So you know, that is simply with the
 5     news -- the news media.
 6  948                  But I also find that with programming
 7     that is not news-related, I also find that there is a
 8     lack, as well in that I don't see -- I don't see the --
 9     my own culture, my own ethnic background being
10     displayed in the media to any satisfactory degree.  And
11     I certainly don't see other communities that I would
12     like to find out more about being adequately
13     represented.  You know, that's something that I would
14     like to see changed in the future and, you know, I
15     think that it's very much achievable, although it will
16     take some time.
17  949                  Next, I'll talk about -- I would like
18     to talk about access.  And I find that no concerning --
19     you know, the Vietnamese Canadian community here in
20     Vancouver that there is not adequate access to
21     programming, there's not enough access to -- for people
22     who would like to -- for people who are working in the
23     Vietnamese media, we're being very much -- I think
24     we're being very much limited in terms of how much we
25     can achieve because of lack of funding and the fact


 1     that we have to rely on volunteers to run our programs.
 2  950                  Let me just tell you about the TV and
 3     programs that we do have here in Vancouver.
 4  951                  It's very interesting how that keeps
 5     on ringing.
 6     --- Laughter / Rires
 7  952                  MS PHAM:  We have one radio program
 8     which is approximately an hour a week.  We have three
 9     radio programs -- sorry, one TV program that's an hour
10     an week and then we have three radio programs and
11     altogether that's a total of only three hours a week.
12  953                  Now, I have to tell you that the TV
13     program, it's actually non-existent at the moment
14     because there's not enough funding -- well, there's no
15     funding.  No government funding whatsoever.  And the TV
16     program is privately operated and owned.
17  954                  I was speaking to the person in
18     charge the other day and he says, "Well, you know,
19     we've had to shut down for a few months because we
20     don't have the money.  So we're not sure when we're
21     going to be back on again."  But it just goes to show
22     you that there is needs that exist.
23  955                  And so altogether four hours of
24     broadcasting for a population, you know, that is
25     approximately 33,000.  That's 33,000 Vietnamese


 1     Canadians, approximately, living in the Greater
 2     Vancouver area, and only about four hours of
 3     programming a week, at best.
 4  956                  Yeah, it -- needless to say, there's
 5     still a long ways to go.
 6  957                  Next, I'd like to talk about imported
 7     services versus Canadian ethnocultural programs
 8     developed here in Canada.
 9  958                  And I would say that ideally
10     priorities should be given to programs that are
11     developed here in Canada, because only such programs
12     can reflect the very current needs of the community and
13     there are a lot of needs that should be addressed, and
14     I find that the local Vietnamese media, as well as the
15     mainstream media could be a real vehicle in public
16     education regarding a whole bunch of community issues.
17  959                  But the only thing is that it --
18     needless to say, it costs so much money to produce a
19     radio program and it costs so much more money to
20     produce a quality television program that often I've
21     been told that, you know, for example, the TV program
22     is forced to fall back on imported material to fill up
23     the time.  And it's kind of ironic because in some ways
24     we're -- my community's asking for more time and more
25     access to the media and yet, because we don't have the


 1     funding then, now we don't know what to do with the
 2     time.
 3  960                  So it's, I guess it's we're asking
 4     for support financially, but also enough of it so that
 5     we can carry out -- so that it becomes adequate and so
 6     that we can carry out our goals.
 7  961                  So in terms of recommendations, how
 8     to improve the current system, I have to admit that I'm
 9     very much -- I'm very much of a novice, I don't know
10     what recommendations I can make having absolutely no
11     experience, really, with any terms of policy, you know,
12     any part of the policy-making process.
13  962                  So, I don't know.  What can I say,
14     except that -- money, please.  More funding and yeah,
15     I -- for community programming and ethnic programming
16     and -- well, I -- that just about wraps it up and I
17     guess to -- just to end my presentation, I guess I
18     would like to say that I really would like to share my
19     dream with you.
20  963                  And that is that I would like to one
21     day see down the road in a few years, and I think it's
22     very achievable, I would like to see my community, the
23     Vietnamese Canadian community, as well as other ethnic
24     communities in Canada be represented in a more
25     realistic, more positive manner in the media.  And I


 1     would like to have my community, as well as other
 2     communities be real partners in the media and not just
 3     presented as exotic, quaint or just -- yeah, I'm very
 4     wary of being portrayed as an exotic foreigner in
 5     Canada, because I think that's really -- what it does
 6     is it sets boundaries between people and what it does
 7     is it creates an atmosphere of us versus them.
 8  964                  And I would like to see one day, I
 9     would like to have it so that mainstream media is -- or
10     rather -- I'm not sure how to say this adequately, and
11     I don't know how to use the correct term for it,
12     politically.  But I would prefer that, you know,
13     caucasians or white people not -- and programming of a
14     mainstream sort not be considered -- not be considered
15     the norm, but rather as, you know, I would like us to
16     work as partners and I would like us to create an
17     environment in which cultures can be shared in a way
18     that promotes interest in other communities, to explore
19     our differences and our diversity.
20  965                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
21     much.  You've been very eloquent and it isn't necessary
22     to give specific recommendations, and we certainly
23     appreciate hearing your views.  Thank you.
24  966                  MS PHAM:  Thank you.
25  967                  THE SECRETARY:  Do we have any


 1     experience in this room as to how long we might expect
 2     those bells to continue?
 3  968                  MR. JONES:  The question is "For whom
 4     the bell tolls".
 5     --- Laughter / Rires
 6  969                  THE SECRETARY:  Okay. Then we will
 7     proceed with our next presenter, who is Marta Gloria
 8     Delavega.
10  970                  MS DELAVEGA:  Thank you to the
11     members of the Commission for the time and effort,
12     dedicated and to all the people who have presented.
13  971                  My name is Marta Gloria Delavega.  I
14     work -- I am from Guatemala and work with the Christian
15     Task Force on Central America.  And for 15 years, we
16     have been working as an educational ecumenical group,
17     trying to raise awareness about the situation in
18     Central America.
19  972                  While doing this kind of work, we
20     have noticed that it will be very helpful if the media,
21     radio, television, and different ways of communication
22     could provide, besides the information that they
23     usually do, education to the different communities and
24     to the -- all the Canadian people.  And at the same
25     time, in the ethnic communities, we need to use this


 1     opportunity to educate ourselves about Canada, about
 2     indigenous people of North America and to start knowing
 3     each other.
 4  973                  This is particularly important in a
 5     Canadian context in which diversity is common in all --
 6     in most of the cities, because when different members
 7     or different communities or ethnic groups are portrayed
 8     only in the negative aspect, usually that instills or
 9     brings fear to other people, to other communities.  And
10     fear is something very risky in our context.  It's
11     risky because we all know that what we fear, we try to
12     destroy.
13  974                  There are -- in these times of
14     globalization, there are aspects in which could be very
15     important to educate the public through radio and
16     television.
17  975                  For instance, we may take two issues. 
18     One is about immigration.  Canada is a society made
19     throughout centuries by -- formed by immigrants.  And
20     now we are seeing that the immigrants that are coming
21     are being portrayed as -- in different ways as people
22     who take jobs, as persons who benefit from the health
23     system, but we are looking just as to one side of the
24     -- or to one aspect of the whole situation.  In very
25     few opportunities, we have seen about the positive


 1     contributions that immigrants make to Canadian society,
 2     or about the amount of taxes that are paid by these
 3     immigrants or the different types of contributions that
 4     could be made.
 5  976                  It is very important, also, that
 6     through the radio and TV there is information and
 7     education about the causes and the economic roots of
 8     the immigration problem, because it is true that now
 9     with the globalization, we need to understand and to
10     try to develop a different relationship north and
11     south.  These, we can use as an opportunity.
12  977                  When we also talk about the -- I have
13     read about section 3 of the Broadcasting Act and that
14     the Canadian broadcasting system should serve the needs
15     and interests of Canadian men, women and children,
16     including equal rights.  And concerning this aspect, it
17     will be also important to talk about what we could call
18     "prevention and education".
19  978                  For instance, in the last year or so,
20     we have seen increasingly the issue of child
21     apprehension in ethnic communities.  And very little
22     has been said in the radio, either ethnic radio or TV
23     to educate the public about this situation.  And these
24     can really affect the harmony that is being looked or
25     tried to achieve in the Canadian society.  We are


 1     seeing increasingly affected communities such as
 2     Chinese community, Latin American and other ethnic
 3     communities with child apprehension.  And these, the
 4     radio and TV could really help to educate and to make
 5     public what are the expectations, what is needed and
 6     even though we have seen that may be very few cases in
 7     which apprehension may be required, it should be the
 8     exception and not the rule.
 9  979                  I mean, that aspect, we are asking
10     that ways of communication help to prevent deeper
11     conflict and also to prevent the long term effects that
12     apprehension are having on children and to learn from
13     what has happened to indigenous communities here in
14     Canada and how they affect in that community may be
15     repeated several times over with devastating
16     consequences.
17  980                  And these are only two issues that we
18     would like to mention.
19  981                  Concerning the recommendations, we
20     would like to see youths, the radio and TV and the
21     policy framework asking that ethnic communication also
22     dedicate time to educate about human rights and
23     fundamental freedoms.  In issues such as the universal
24     declaration of human rights, the international
25     agreements on economic, social and civil and cultural


 1     rights, as part of fulfilling its social mandate.
 2  982                  We also would like to see that a
 3     special programs, as the second recommendation, that a
 4     special programs are directed at children and youth
 5     with their participation about issues that are relevant
 6     for them.  For instance, in education, health,
 7     prevention and respect for diversity.  We think that
 8     it's very important, the inclusion of youth and
 9     children in the planning of these programming.  And the
10     results could be very encouraging.
11  983                  The third recommendation is that a
12     percentage of the programming also should be directed
13     to women's interests and needs.  And in their own
14     language.
15  984                  The last recommendation is concerning
16     the funding to alternative radio and TV.  That it would
17     be important to increase it and in Vancouver, there are
18     few radio stations, for instance, who carry these types
19     of programming and they are always struggling with
20     funding.  And in that aspect, cross-cultural
21     information, education and referrals and activities,
22     could help us to avoid future conflict and also to have
23     a more rich and peaceful society.
24  985                  Thank you.
25  986                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.


 1  987                  THE SECRETARY:  Our next presenter
 2     this evening is Sikandar Azam.
 4  988                  MR. AZAM:  Madame Chair and members
 5     of the CRTC, ladies and gentlemen, good evening.
 6  989                  My name is Sikandar Azam, and I came
 7     to Canada about 23 years ago, now I'm a Canadian
 8     citizen and I'm from Fiji Islands.
 9  990                  Frankly speaking, I did not prepare
10     anything, I came as an audience, but I'm just trying to
11     fill in the slot for somebody and what I'm trying to
12     give my views here, is actually coming from my heart
13     and I have had concerns for a long time, and this is
14     the best opportunity I've heard to air my views right
15     now.
16  991                  I have my own business, and I come in
17     contact with lots of Canadians in the Lower Mainland,
18     so I have a fair knowledge of what they think of us.
19  992                  I belong to Fiji Muslim Association
20     which comprises of something like 80,000 here in the
21     Lower Mainland.  And frankly speaking, there is nothing
22     whatsoever in the media, especially on multicultural
23     channel that says anything about the Fiji Muslim
24     Association.
25  993                  As you all know, there are 1.2


 1     billion Muslims all over the world and there's not a
 2     day that goes by that in the world media, of CNN and
 3     other, there's something about Muslims that is either
 4     negative or positive, but there is always about Muslims
 5     all over the world.  So understanding about Muslims is
 6     a very important aspect of our life here, whether we be
 7     Canadians or whether we be ethnic group or whatever.
 8  994                  To understand us is to get some
 9     education and that's the best way to know what it's all
10     about.  If you want to know something positive, you got
11     to understand what they're talking about, not what the
12     media presents.
13  995                  Media is a very, very strong weapon,
14     whether it can make it or break it.  So most of the
15     time, I hear news over the air, news in the TV and I'm
16     appalled at what they're trying to say.
17  996                  What I'm trying to say here is
18     specifically channel 20 provided by Rogers Cable, now
19     this channel has at least, I would say, Fijian -- three
20     different Fijian programming by three different
21     associations.  This is all lopsided, one sided and
22     there is nothing whatsoever about anything about
23     Muslims from Fiji.  It says it's a channel -- it's a
24     Fijian program.  But frankly speaking, I'm appalled at
25     what I see, because that is the channel or that is -- I


 1     have some friends, my neighbours who are Croatians
 2     Canadians, Chinese, they watch all those programs and
 3     they say, "What's going on?  Is that what where you
 4     come from?"  That doesn't give a right picture of what
 5     we are.  Fiji is supposed to be the paradise of the
 6     Pacific and that's what the image should be.  Not what
 7     is portrayed by these channels that we see.
 8  997                  So I'm really appalled.  Actually, I
 9     was talking to Shushma who represents RimJhim Radio
10     Station and I was very pleased to see that there was a
11     big flood and she did a marvellous job collecting --
12     raising money for the Fiji Disaster Fund, and those are
13     the kinds of things we need in TV, which is
14     non-existent at this time.
15  998                  So what I'm trying to say is we need
16     a cross-section, we need a balanced programming in our
17     multicultural society, multicultural channels so that
18     we have a fair knowledge of what goes on and where we
19     are, where we come from, we can feel proud of; not by
20     watching those appalling programs which is lopsided and
21     many times meaningless.
22  999                  I have -- I go and see my customers
23     in the Lower Mainland who happen to be basically
24     Canadians and many a time, they offer me, say, coffee
25     and I say, "No, it's my fasting month.  No."  They say,


 1     "Fasting?  You go hungry?", I say, "Yes, from dawn to
 2     dusk."  So fasting is not, fasting or Ramadan is not
 3     just going hungry, there's so many aspects of it. 
 4     There's a how, respect, moral, there's a charity,
 5     there's so many.  After I explain to them for 15
 6     minutes, they're so pleased, they say, "Can we do
 7     something like this?"  I say, "Most certainly, because
 8     there is so many merits behind it".
 9  1000                 So what I found there is a need of
10     education.  You have to educate, you have -- you have
11     to -- and the best way of education is by media, by
12     television, by radio.  And here we are lacking all
13     those things in a very, very bad way.  And there's a
14     great need to do something about it.
15  1001                 I will not go any further because I
16     think -- I'm just sharing these thoughts with somebody
17     here and I'll just conclude here.  All I'll say is we
18     should -- I mean, I'd request the members of the CRTC
19     to look what I have to say here, frankly speaking, the
20     population of the Muslims in Canada right now, across
21     the board, is about half a million.  In ten years' time
22     it will be a million.  So we should be about one-third
23     of the population of Canada and there is a need to
24     know, especially when you have 1.2 billion Muslims
25     across the world, to know what it's all about and you


 1     hear of them.
 2  1002                 So my request is there's a time, we
 3     need more slot -- not really need more slot, actually
 4     there's no slot at all right now.  And I'm very pleased
 5     with the programming back in east and that's all -- any
 6     program that's done in Toronto is done so well and I'm
 7     afraid why the same situation cannot exist here in
 8     Lower Mainland, which does not exist at all.  And they
 9     have excellent programming up there.  Some Islamic or
10     Muslim programs and it's well done.  Over here is
11     basically nil.  And I would certainly like to see,
12     personally, that we have more programming, something of
13     the same situation as what is done in Toronto so that
14     will serve our community.
15  1003                 Thank you.
16  1004                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
17     much.
18  1005                 THE SECRETARY:  I'd now like to
19     invite John Nurany to make his presentation.
21  1006                 MR. NURANY:  Madame Chair and members
22     of the Commission.  My name is John Nurany and I'm a
23     businessman by profession and I'm of South Asian
24     origin, being born and brought up in Kenya and
25     immigrated to Canada 25 years ago.


 1  1007                 I also have the privilege of serving
 2     in some of the Community Service Boards.  I sit on the
 3     Board of Family Services of Greater Vancouver and the
 4     Michael J. Fox Theatre, and I also am the President of
 5     the Rotary Club in Burnaby.
 6  1008                 What we are hearing tonight across
 7     the room here, I think there is a cry for sharing
 8     culture, for getting more voice, getting more time on
 9     television, with the sole purpose of not just enjoying
10     the entertainment, but also educating the different
11     ethnic groups.
12  1009                 The issues you are discussing today
13     are to what extent does the present broadcasting system
14     adequately serve Canada's ethnoculture communities. 
15     Second, given the demographic changes that have taken
16     place in Canada, how can the needs and the interests of
17     the ethnocultural communities continue to be served. 
18     And finally, should there be a priority on the
19     development of Canadian ethnocultural services, rather
20     than importing foreign services.
21  1010                 To deal with the first issue, whether
22     the present system adequately serves Canada's
23     ethnocultural communities, I would like to suggest that
24     whilst they do meet a need, there is certainly room for
25     more access and broader based programming.


 1  1011                 The third language programs have
 2     become a great source of communicating with the
 3     minority groups and this medium should contain elements
 4     of understanding Canada and its virtues.
 5  1012                 The entertainment aspect and
 6     identification with ethnicity is well served with these
 7     programs.  It is my opinion that whilst these programs
 8     should continue, they should strive to broaden the base
 9     and attempt to have an inclusive approach.
10  1013                 The second point, given the
11     demographic changes that have taken place in Canada,
12     how can the needs and interests of the ethnocultural
13     communities continue to be served.
14  1014                 I would like to propose that a new
15     dimension should be added whereby the third language
16     programs should have a good portion of local events and
17     to discuss and educate about Canadian values and
18     lifestyle.
19  1015                 I'll give you a brief example of what
20     I have seen and witnessed in course of my community
21     services in the last few weeks.  There is a family that
22     I visited that lived in an apartment that was dark. 
23     And upon questioning, we found out that they felt that
24     in order to change the bulb, they had to ask the
25     landlord.  And they did not know who the landlord was,


 1     so they were just living in dark.
 2  1016                 The second example of a family that
 3     we took out grocery shopping and when we went back, we
 4     asked him to put away the groceries and we left.
 5     --- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques
 6  1017                 MR. NURANY:  This is the darkness
 7     that I'm talking about.
 8     --- Laughter / Rires
 9  1018                 MR. NURANY:  If I may continue.
10  1019                 We left them there and came back the
11     next day to find out if everything was okay.  We
12     noticed that the meat was sitting out on the counter,
13     while the cans of vegetables and fruits were sitting in
14     the freezer.  They thought that the freezer was a
15     cupboard.
16  1020                 Now, these are different ethnic
17     background people, the immigrants who come to this
18     country and have no way of finding out the Canadian
19     lifestyle.
20  1021                 Television is a great medium, not
21     only for dispensing and disseminating ethnic cultural
22     values, it is also to address and educate the
23     immigrants that are coming to this country.  And with
24     that in view, the communities should be accorded the
25     facilities to produce and be given the opportunity to


 1     learn about media presentation.
 2  1022                 New channels should be dedicated with
 3     longer time to be able to do proper justice to
 4     programming.  The new reality of changing demography
 5     must be considered, perhaps we should look at the
 6     methods of bringing a better understanding of each
 7     other's cultures and languages.
 8  1023                 The programs should be developed
 9     whereby it is not attracting only the specialty group,
10     but which can also be enjoyed by all with the
11     opportunity to learn perhaps a new language.
12  1024                 As diversity continues to grow, less
13     and less time will be accorded to community
14     programming.  I suggest that more channels should be
15     assigned for ethnic broadcasting and one of the
16     astonishing factors that I see in ethnic programs that
17     are presently available in broadcast, it is amazing to
18     see that there is nothing that exists for aboriginal
19     communities in Canada.  I think this should be an issue
20     and a note that the CRTC should closely examine.
21  1025                 With regard to the third point of
22     whether there should be priority on the development of
23     Canadian ethnocultural services rather than importing
24     foreign services, I would like to say that a good
25     balance should be achieved between the two.  Whilst it


 1     is important for entertainment perspective to use
 2     foreign service, it is also important to develop
 3     Canadian service.  The latter will offer enormous
 4     opportunity for creativity and development of
 5     resources.
 6  1026                 As we move into a more enduring and
 7     tolerant society, it is important that we show
 8     responsibility in the quality of programming.  The
 9     development of Canadian ethnocultural service should be
10     considered the requirement of high quality.
11  1027                 We've only talked about specifically
12     the ethnic dedicated programming.  I would like also to
13     suggest that in the mainstream Canadian reporting and
14     programming, we should encourage more ethnic content. 
15     The news channels should cover more of the
16     international news with relevance to changing
17     demography.
18  1028                 The ethnic content must not be
19     allowed to be appropriated.  The culture and art should
20     be exposed from the eyes and voices of the ethnic
21     members.  The danger of appropriation should be
22     avoided.  The mainstream culture and art should reach
23     out and afford the facility for ethnic involvement. 
24     The example of late singer musician and composer,
25     Nostratali (ph) who achieved enrichment by bringing


 1     South Asian flavour to western music is a classic point
 2     in question.  The sharing of culture and art should be
 3     a pleasant experience and not a reluctant effort.
 4  1029                 Finally, let me reiterate what must
 5     have been said several times before, that the power of
 6     television is unmitigated and it is for us to ensure
 7     that this very substantial and influential tool is
 8     appropriately used to serve us well.
 9  1030                 Thank you for listening.
10  1031                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
11     Nurany.
12  1032                 THE SECRETARY:  Our next presenter is
13     Gabriel Yiu.
14                                                        1900
16  1033                 MR. YIU:  Madame Chair, members of
17     the Commission, ladies and gentlemen.
18  1034                 Good evening.  My name is Gabriel
19     Yiu, I'm an immigrant from Hong Kong and right now I'm
20     a businessman and an independent commentator.
21  1035                 I was talk show host on current
22     affairs in Chinese radio for three years, and I was
23     also a current affairs columnist for a Chinese
24     newspaper.  Right now, I'm a columnist for business in
25     Vancouver, a regular contributor to the Vancouver Sun


 1     and director of the B.C. Newspaper Foundation.
 2  1036                 My contribution in the media is
 3     recognized by the City of Vancouver with an award
 4     called Cultural Harmony Award.
 5  1037                 Section 3(d)(iii) of the Broadcasting
 6     Act states that:
 7                            "... the Canadian broadcasting
 8                            system should serve the needs
 9                            and interests and reflect the
10                            circumstances and aspirations of
11                            Canadian men, women and
12                            children, including equal
13                            rights, the linguistic  duality
14                            and multicultural and
15                            multiracial nature of Canadian
16                            society."
17  1038                 Although the CRTC ethnic programming
18     requires the broadcasting system, that is mainstream
19     and also ethnic media alike, to serve and reflect the
20     multicultural and multiracial nature of Canadian
21     society, the fact is that only the ethnic media which
22     target particular ethnic groups truly serve the ethnic
23     minorities.
24  1039                 We have, indeed, in recent years,
25     seen some ethnic faces in mainstream media.  But as it


 1     regards to themes, reporting angle, advertising and
 2     policies, the needs and interests of ethnocultural
 3     communities are neither reflected nor catered to.  When
 4     one looks at the print media, the Vancouver Sun has
 5     done a much better job in covering news of ethnic
 6     groups and that of the Pacific Rim.
 7  1040                 Ethnic media depends on the
 8     commercial markets and services of ethnic groups and so
 9     aim to serve the groups on which the markets and
10     services in turn depend.
11  1041                 Consider the Chinese language media. 
12     With the rapid increase in population of Chinese
13     immigrants over the past ten years, the Chinese media
14     as a whole, both visual and print, have expanded in
15     production volume to a point that rivals that of the
16     English media.  In truth, the Chinese media form a
17     system in itself, no longer the several-hours-a-week
18     fair it was before, and outrank the media of other
19     ethnic groups.
20  1042                 When one looks at the functions
21     performed by the Chinese media, it is fair to say that
22     they have played a significant role in sustaining
23     Chinese traditions and the Chinese language, supplying
24     daily information on community events and
25     entertainment, supporting Chinese charity associations


 1     and cultivating a sense of community.  Moreover, it has
 2     assisted in the formation of a commercial market around
 3     the Chinese community.  All these are palatable
 4     achievements, and credit must go to the Chinese media.
 5  1043                 Because the Chinese media have a
 6     direct and definite influence on the development of
 7     Chinese community, any new broadcasting policy which
 8     has an effect on them should also meet the interests of
 9     the society and the nation at large.
10  1044                 In controlling the mainstream media,
11     CRTC's concern is to maintain Canadian content as a way
12     of bolstering Canadian culture.  The primary goal is to
13     resist the dominance of U.S. culture.  In regard to
14     ethnic media, CRTC's policy is:
15                            "... intended to encourage the
16                            growth and development of ethnic
17                            programming in Canada, to assist
18                            in ensuring that culturally and
19                            racially distinct groups receive
20                            broadcasting services and to
21                            enhance the variety and broaden
22                            the scope of the Canadian
23                            broadcasting system."
24  1045                 The goal is to maintain ethnic
25     traditional culture and its link, cultural and


 1     linguistic, with the place of origin.  While there is a
 2     fear of acculturation by the U.S., there is little sign
 3     of fear of the ghettoization of ethnic peoples and
 4     cultures.
 5  1046                 Although the Chinese media is also
 6     subject to the criterion of Canadian content, the
 7     effect of this criterion on this operation is quite
 8     different.  Take radio as an example.  The Cancon can
 9     be satisfied by including so many Canadian songs, but
10     talk radio does not have to be by or about Canadians. 
11     So Chinese radios can have massive programs on current
12     affairs, history, culture and entertainment on China,
13     Hong Kong or Taiwan.
14  1047                 Even television programs produced
15     locally, say those about Chinese traditions, may not be
16     linked to Canada or help audience in understanding
17     Canada.  Just as Canadian TV viewers often want U.S.
18     sitcoms in prime time spots, so Chinese Canadian quite
19     often like to view Hong Kong programs (even Hong Kong
20     produced current affairs programs) at prime time
21     instead of late at night.  Chinese TV stations
22     regularly get requests for moving late-night imported
23     programs to replace local production in the prime time.
24  1048                 The Chinese broadcasts are, for the
25     majority of immigrants, the only cultural product


 1     consumed regularly. Chinese programs, therefore, should
 2     take up the role of assisting viewers to understand
 3     society and to bridge the cultural divides.
 4  1049                 If we look at Chinese media news
 5     production, we see a product of a reasonable standard,
 6     and one that centres round happenings in Canada.  But
 7     there is not enough analysis of events that could have
 8     profound effect on Chinese Canadians.  Such events are
 9     of weekly, if not daily, occurrence; whether to set up
10     traditional schools, the book ban in Surrey, reform of
11     the immigration and refugee policies, et cetera.  Yet
12     these are merely reported on, and we get little
13     in-depth analysis from a fresh viewpoint.
14  1050                 If we look at resource-rich
15     mainstream media, there are likewise few discerning
16     reports of the impingement of the values of
17     multiculturalism on social issues.  And few are
18     programs that depict multicultural communities.
19  1051                 In view of the rapid demographic
20     changes in the last ten years as well as the challenges
21     of new technology, the renewed evaluation of CRTC of
22     its direction is a timely manner.
23  1052                 The fact is, the Internet has brought
24     with it tremendous change to the Chinese media.  Hong
25     Kong newspapers and editorials are now freely available


 1     to net browsers.  Hong Kong radios can be tuned into
 2     hourly.  Satellite TV broadcast, and in the future,
 3     digitalized high-capacity channels will be easily
 4     accessible.  The Chinese media see themselves as under
 5     threat.
 6  1053                 One form the threat takes is in the
 7     area of cost, specifically salaries.  Take the TV
 8     station run by the same company with two channels --
 9     one Cantonese serving immigrants from Hong Kong and
10     South China, one Mandarin channel serving those from
11     China and Taiwan.  The salaries of its employees are
12     about half those of their English counterparts.  In
13     other words, they can survive because of lower cost. 
14     Once more channels are open, competition will reduce
15     income and the station might not be viable.  And the
16     downturn in the Asian economy has left local Chinese
17     economy gasping for air.
18  1054                 There is a parallel between the
19     Canadian media and the local Chinese media:  both are
20     under threat from imported products, one from the U.S.,
21     the other from Hong Kong.  The Chinese media here is of
22     course on a much smaller scale.  Still, if there is
23     going to be more programs from outside Canada, then
24     even though the audience may have a wider range of
25     choice, local Chinese productions and its quality will


 1     decline, and that will not be conducive to a clearer
 2     sense of Canadian identity.
 3  1055                 Multiculturalism can be a tool to
 4     help immigrants adapt to the large community, but it
 5     can also promote multi-ethnocentrism.  What is certain
 6     is that for multiculturalism to succeed in Canada and
 7     to achieve a harmonious inclusive society, ethnic
 8     media, as well as mainstream media, has a crucial role
 9     to play.
10  1056                 Thank you.
11  1057                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Yiu.
12  1058                 THE SECRETARY:  Our next presenter
13     this evening is Magnus Thyvold.
15  1059                 MR. THYVOLD:  Welcome, Madame
16     Chairman, and thank you for having me here today.
17  1060                 My name is Magnus Thyvold, I
18     represent the National Campus & Community Radio
19     Association.  The NCRA is an association representing
20     campus and community stations across Canada, largely in
21     English Canada.
22  1061                 In Public Notice 1998-135, the CRTC
23     asked the question:
24                            "Do campus and community radio
25                            stations have a significant role


 1                            to play in providing programming
 2                            to targeted ethnic groups?"
 3  1062                 The answer to this question is "yes".
 4     Campus and community stations across the country, in
 5     almost every case, have multicultural programming of
 6     some kind.  This takes the form of a variety of third
 7     language and mixed language programs.  In almost every
 8     case, these are generated from and serving local
 9     communities.  These programs provide an important
10     service to their communities.
11  1063                 Also, in the Public Notice, the CRTC
12     asked:
13                            "Should campus and community
14                            stations be authorized to
15                            provide more ethnic programming
16                            without authorization?"
17  1064                 Namely, should -- I interpret that to
18     mean that should the limit on ethnic programming for
19     non-ethnic stations, at least in the case of campus and
20     community radio stations be raised?  And the answer, I
21     feel is that this limit should be raised to at least 20
22     percent.  Many speakers who have spoken here this
23     evening have made the point that there is not enough
24     ethnic programming available and I think steps to make
25     more opportunities available for ethnic programming are


 1     desirable.
 2  1065                 The 15 percent limit on ethnic
 3     programming on non-ethnic radio stations, as defined by
 4     the CRTC, is intended to keep those stations from
 5     impinging on the market segment of ethnic stations and
 6     perhaps threatening the viability of those stations. 
 7     The programming offered by campus and community
 8     stations differs in many ways from that presented by
 9     ethnic radio stations.
10  1066                 Campus and community stations are
11     located in many communities across Canada.  Most of
12     these are not served by an existing ethnic station.  In
13     many communities, campus and community -- ethnic
14     programming provided by campus and community stations
15     represents the only availability of such programming in
16     that community.
17  1067                 Furthermore, ethnic programming on
18     campus and community radio stations is created by
19     members of the local community and is targeted
20     specifically at the local community.  Virtually no
21     station across the country, that I'm aware of, imports
22     either from outside of their community or from an
23     international community, except in very limited cases,
24     its ethnic programming.  It is provided by volunteers
25     from the community who are often very involved in their


 1     communities, not only at the radio station, but in a
 2     number of different community organizations that are
 3     often well-known within their communities.
 4  1068                 News and information about local
 5     events and activities are a major part of the
 6     programming provided.  In addition, students and even
 7     international students are involved in ethnic
 8     programming on campus and community stations.  Because
 9     of the importance of community information on these
10     programs, they often feature a higher level of spoken
11     word content than is typical of many commercial ethnic
12     stations.
13  1069                 Furthermore, because ethnic
14     programming on a campus and community station is
15     justified on the basis of an identified community need
16     rather than the potential for ad revenue, many ethnic
17     groups are able to be served -- are able to be served
18     or would be -- sorry.  Many ethnic groups are able to
19     be served that would be ignored by the regular
20     commercial media, which is to say, the regular
21     commercial medium, besides ethnic media, also has a
22     role to play in providing ethnic programming, but for
23     many of those -- many of those media outlets, they only
24     provide ethnic programming where there is a potential
25     for advertising to offset the cost, because it's not


 1     their central mandate.
 2  1070                 This, for the most part, isn't an
 3     issue for campus and community radio and its largely
 4     volunteer-based programming.  So that it is able to
 5     serve many communities that are smaller or perhaps too
 6     small to be served by the commercial media.
 7  1071                 Generally speaking, ad revenue
 8     generated through campus and community ethnic
 9     programming is not large by community radio standards
10     and should not be considered a threat to commercial
11     ethnic radio ventures.  Ethnic radio programming is a
12     very important part and a very important means by which
13     campus and community radio stations reflect the
14     communities they serve, including their ethnocultural
15     diversity.
16  1072                 Additionally, because campus and
17     community serve so many, sometimes smaller
18     communities -- sometimes smaller ethnic communities
19     within their communities, and in almost -- certainly in
20     my personal experience, they almost always would like
21     more time than they have, one hour a week isn't very
22     much to try and cover the many issues and events going
23     on in a community and they're always asking for more.
24  1073                 The answer, I think would be, a good
25     idea to raise that 15 percent limit to at least 20


 1     percent, perhaps even more, depending on how that
 2     impacts on other issues.  So that it is easier for
 3     campus and community stations and they're provided more
 4     flexibility to serve these communities without having
 5     to resort to requesting an exemption order from the
 6     CRTC.
 7  1074                 We would also like to see the
 8     recognition that ethnic programming on campus and
 9     community radio is complementary to that provided by
10     other ethnic services, including ethnic radio stations,
11     the ability to -- of campus and community stations to
12     provide programming for ethnic communities should be
13     protected and guaranteed.  And by that, I'm referring
14     just to the potential for commercial ethnic stations to
15     make the case that ethnic programming on a community
16     station and the advertising that it generates, which is
17     never terribly large, threatens their ability to
18     generate revenue.
19  1075                 I don't believe that's true and I
20     think the services provided to campus and community
21     stations is very much complementary to that provided by
22     commercial ethnic stations.  And particularly the very
23     strong, local community focus that these programs have,
24     is an important service.
25  1076                 The one other issue I'd like to


 1     address is Canadian content.  Ethnic programmers on our
 2     stations across the country have found it very
 3     difficult to get access to sufficient amounts of
 4     Canadian content ethnic programming.  It's very easy to
 5     get -- or not programming, sorry, music.  It's very
 6     easy to get ethnic music of all sorts, but it is quite
 7     difficult to get ethnic music on recording produced
 8     here in Canada, and I think in the new ethnic policy, I
 9     think some action needs to be taken to address that
10     issue, whether -- probably I would think mainly through
11     some means of providing greater support to ethnic music
12     artists through such venues as Factor or Music Action,
13     with particular attention to product distribution and
14     providing resources to artists to help them get their
15     music out and across Canada.
16  1077                 Thank you very much.
17  1078                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I think
18     Commissioner Cardozo has a question.
19  1079                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you,
20     Madame Chair.
21  1080                 Mr. Thyvold, I just had a question
22     about the last point you were making and that is access
23     to Canadian-made music from ethnic minority artists.
24  1081                 You're aware of Factor or Music
25     Action, which is, for people who may not be aware of


 1     it, it's a program that is jointly funded by the
 2     Federal Government and radio stations who by a small
 3     amount of money -- I shouldn't say "small", but a
 4     certain amount of money, back into production of new
 5     Canadian music in general, just to try and encourage
 6     Canadian artists, especially new artists and -- as
 7     opposed to the more famous ones, who are usually
 8     commercially successful in their own right.
 9  1082                 We have raised some questions with
10     them and they certainly have started, over the last
11     couple of years, to diversify the kind of artists who
12     are getting funded.  And what they do is fund artists
13     who have either not had a record or I think, had one or
14     two records, I'm not sure of the exact criteria.  So
15     they have begun to fund and support artists from
16     minority communities.
17  1083                 I'm just wondering to what extent you
18     are aware that campus radios do have access to the
19     music that they produce, because essentially what they
20     do is they produce this music and I understand they
21     send it free to radio stations to -- as promotions to
22     pick up from them.  And I'm wondering to what extent
23     campus radio stations have access to that music?
24  1084                 MR. THYVOLD:  It still is very much a
25     problem reported by our programmers that it is


 1     difficult to get a hold of it.  I think part of it is,
 2     while in some cases it's out there, it's hard to find
 3     or track down.
 4  1085                 You know, it's great if there's a
 5     small label in Toronto that's putting out some stuff,
 6     but if a programmer or my music director at my station
 7     isn't aware of it, I think that's as much a problem and
 8     that's why, you know, I made reference to distribution
 9     and various resources that could help the various
10     producers of this music, a) make people aware of it,
11     make stations aware of it.  And I don't know whether
12     that requires perhaps some sort of centralized resource
13     or web site or whatever, that sort of is like a
14     clearing house for that sort of information, because --
15     but that's, I think, often, you know, as much the
16     problem as whether the music actually exists even.
17  1086                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you.
18  1087                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
19  1088                 THE SECRETARY:  Our next presenter is
20     Mohammed Koya.
22  1089                 MR. KOYA:  Madame Chair, members of
23     the CRTC, ladies and gentlemen.  Good evening.
24  1090                 I'm from the Fiji Islands and I've
25     been in this country for the last 23 years.  And in the


 1     present I'm a self-employed businessman, as a food
 2     broker.
 3  1091                 And 99.9 percent of my customers are
 4     all Canadians.  And sometimes we do sit down, have
 5     coffee and it has been brought to my attention about
 6     our ethnic backgrounds and in discussions it comes out
 7     that by my name, my first name is Mohammed, it's
 8     obvious that anybody who hears this name will say that
 9     I'm a Muslim.
10  1092                 There are sometimes when people are
11     misguided, especially in the western world, in North
12     America.  To the best of my knowledge, these misguiding
13     informations are being given by most of the news media,
14     papers, which gives the wrong impression to the public.
15  1093                 Madame Chairperson, in order to get
16     this kind of problems solved, it is my request, a
17     humble request, that if the Commission will consider
18     putting some kind of problem in the multicultural
19     situation so that the entire community can understand
20     what our Islam is.
21  1094                 Basically, when we say "Islam", it
22     means that peace, harmony.  We are in this country
23     about 80,000 Muslims live in B.C. and I'm proud to be a
24     member of the B.C. Muslim Association in B.C. and we
25     have branches all over B.C. and I represent as the


 1     Director of the Burnaby branch of the Muslim
 2     Association.
 3  1095                 We have a plan right now in Burnaby
 4     to accommodate people of all the -- all the races so
 5     that we can propagate what is the actual meaning of
 6     "Islam".  Like, we see in the news media most of the
 7     time, anytime anything happens in this world, a bomb
 8     takes place or a plane is hijacked or some kind of
 9     unnatural disaster happens without any questions asked,
10     it is the first blame to the Muslims.
11  1096                 As a matter of fact, I have my best
12     customer in Langley and they are Christians.  As a
13     matter of fact, they have even asked me, "Why you guys
14     are sitting down?  Why are you sitting down?  How come
15     you people can't oppose this?"  We have political
16     qualified people in our community who can sit down with
17     the CRTC, give the full explanation of our religion. 
18     If this takes place, there will be no, what do you
19     call, differences between the Muslims and non-Muslims
20     all over the world.
21  1097                 And besides that, Madame Chairperson,
22     we, as immigrants, we've came here, work hard and this
23     will be our permanent residence here in B.C. or in
24     Canada, and we love to follow the culture, the
25     traditions and abide by the rules of the country.  And


 1     the only way we are succeeding is that at home, we're
 2     the parents, we have discipline in our house.  When we
 3     send our children to school, we tell them what is
 4     right, what is wrong, go to school straight, no
 5     smoking, don't talk to strangers, don't take anything,
 6     don't steal.  And quite a lot when they came home we
 7     asked them questions, "What happened?"  Sometimes the
 8     answer is negative, sometimes positive.
 9  1098                 And in order to what you call, get
10     the ethnic information to the public, if this kind of
11     problems are in the, what do you call, cablevision, it
12     will be advantage to most of the ethnic community.
13  1099                 Apart from this, Madame Chairperson,
14     there are some other kinds of laws the ethnic community
15     don't understand.  For example, I say, like if I was in
16     Fiji and if I had been stopped by a cop there,
17     immediately I can get out of my car and start talking
18     to the cop.  But whereas in this country, you cannot. 
19     As soon as I get out of the car, the gun is at my head. 
20     I don't blame the cop.
21  1100                 As a matter of fact, I had a friend
22     who came from -- all the way from Vietnam, a
23     businessman, and we were driving around and I was
24     stopped.  And this gentleman, poor guy, he didn't know
25     the rules and thus he got out and he was handcuffed.  I


 1     had to, what do you call, beg the cop, "He's a
 2     newcomer, he'll be going away within the next couple of
 3     days and he's my guest and I request to release him." 
 4     "Oh, no.  He got out of the car."  The reason why he
 5     got out of the car so he could ask, what happened.
 6     That's what they do there.
 7  1101                 And in my opinion, like, if once a
 8     month or once every two months if some kind of program
 9     has been kept in the, what do you call, ethnic channel
10     with the police department, people would understand how
11     to recall, talk with the cops or what is the procedure
12     to be followed when you are stopped by a cop.
13  1102                 Similarly in what do you call,
14     travelling all over the places, if you go somewhere in
15     the country, travelling is very hard.  But here, it's
16     very simple.  It is very simple.  We've got all kinds
17     of transportation here.  All kinds of transportation. 
18     Nothing at home.  We cannot complain about that.
19  1103                 And basically, when we are in this
20     province, when we do some parking, we have problems. 
21     People want to fight.  Mostly, like with ethnic people. 
22     And this kind of information should be got to, what do
23     you call, public, how to behave or show some kind of
24     encouragement so that they can go and take, what do you
25     call, videotape and play it in what you call, ethnic


 1     program.  People, they are not aware how to drive or
 2     how to, what do you call, go to the spot, from Point A
 3     to Point B.  It is quite clear to them.  This will
 4     avoid some problems.
 5                                                        1930
 6  1104                 In conclusion, ladies and gentlemen,
 7     and Madame Chair, I'm sorry, When I was talking about
 8     that we, as Muslims, in all of the world, are peaceful
 9     people, if this CRTC later on need any kind of help
10     from our Association, which is B.C. Muslim Association,
11     we will never hesitate to come and talk, sit down and
12     give our 100 percent view about Islam.
13  1105                 Apart from this, there are lots of
14     things which we are doing, like normally there are two
15     kinds of things when we do, sometimes when we do some
16     kind of favour or help, when we give from this hand, we
17     don't pay out of this hand.  But then again, in order
18     to let the public know, especially a place like this,
19     it's no harm.  Like, we, as Muslims, we've just
20     finished what is called our "month of holy Momra" (ph)
21     and this was the time, like, once a year, when each and
22     every Muslim, after all the expenses paid and if there
23     is any surplus money left over, including the gold, we
24     have to, it's a must, give donation or charity, two and
25     a half percent.


 1  1106                 (Indiscernible, not English) when
 2     pleased to let the CRTC know that, and the ladies and
 3     gentlemen here, that we have done a very wonderful job
 4     for the last ten years.  We are doing that and we are
 5     not just giving to our Muslim, we also have to
 6     (indiscernible, not English), as long as we get our
 7     proper record and we go and visit the homes and we look
 8     after them.
 9  1107                 Hopefully I got my message, Madame
10     Chairperson, and once again, I would like to thank you
11     and if there's any question, I'd be glad to answer
12     them.
13  1108                 Thank you.
14  1109                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
15     Koya.  Yes, you did get your message across.  Thank
16     you.
17  1110                 THE SECRETARY:  Our next presenter
18     this evening is Scott MacRae.
20  1111                 MR. MacRAE:  Madame Chair, members of
21     the Commission, ladies and gentlemen.
22  1112                 My name is Scott MacRae, I'm a
23     communications consultant and was recently Director of
24     Communications at the City of Vancouver.  Prior to
25     that, I worked in as a print media journalist in


 1     Vancouver for 20 years.
 2  1113                 My perspective on third language and
 3     ethnic programming is a mainstream one, English is my
 4     only language and so my remarks are from a very
 5     personal viewpoint.
 6  1114                 While I was at the City of Vancouver,
 7     I had the opportunity to work with a variety of ethnic
 8     news media in our region.  My knowledge was very low
 9     when I began to survey local media, ethnic media, five
10     years ago.  I think my ignorance was probably typical
11     of both mainstream people in general and mainstream
12     media people in particular.  I think things have
13     changed.
14  1115                 What I've seen over the last half
15     dozen years is a thriving and vital ethnic news media
16     that, to address why we're here this evening, the
17     region's television menu simply doesn't reflect. 
18     Perhaps Commissioners already know a little about the
19     fortunes of the dominant ethnic media in the region,
20     the Chinese language press.
21  1116                 Here we have three large overseas
22     chains printing daily newspapers with local content in
23     the Lower Mainland.  Two of these chains have made
24     major capital investments in state-of-the-art printing
25     plants with full colour capability.  The mainstream


 1     daily press here hasn't seen this diversity of
 2     viewpoints for decades.
 3  1117                 The effects of Chinese print media
 4     are equally remarkable.  I'd like to mention two of
 5     them that I saw.  One of them affects is involving
 6     newcomers to Canada and also the effects that this
 7     increasingly visible media have on the mainstream
 8     community.
 9  1118                 I have to say that I've been
10     impressed with the task that Chinese language reporters
11     and editors have set themselves and how seriously they
12     perform that task.
13  1119                 Again, from my own personal
14     experience, if you go to a City Council meeting in the
15     City of Vancouver on a Tuesday afternoon, take a look
16     over at the press table, often there are more
17     representatives from the Chinese media than from the
18     mainstream media.  Why?  Well, if you ask Chinese
19     language reporters, they'll tell you it's because their
20     readers, many of whom are newcomers, have a real
21     interest in what's going on in the community they chose
22     to live in.  This can hardly be a surprise.
23  1120                 I recall being a guest on a Chinese
24     language radio call-in program, the topic was property
25     taxes.  Hardly a sexy subject.  Yet the lines were


 1     jammed with hard incisive questions from highly
 2     knowledgeable members of the audience.  Even a
 3     non-Chinese speaker could relate the level of interest
 4     to the Chinese language media coverage.  It's all those
 5     reporters showing up on Tuesday afternoons.
 6  1121                 How could I know what's being written
 7     in the Chinese language media if I don't speak Chinese? 
 8     Well, the City of Vancouver translates all Chinese
 9     newspaper stories about its activities, and from my
10     reading of those translations, it's clear that the
11     major City government issues are covered in a very
12     professional way.
13  1122                 In some cases, the Chinese press
14     coverage is more comprehensive than that of the
15     mainstream media.  Chinese print media has reached
16     something of a critical mass in the Lower Mainland in
17     some ways.  If you go into a suburban shopping mall,
18     you'll see stacks of "Ming Pow" and "Sing Tso" next to
19     the Sun and the Province and other mainstream
20     newspapers.  If you go to a major news event in town,
21     you'll see Chinese reporters standing next to their
22     mainstream counterparts.
23  1123                 And I think because of this kind of
24     critical mass, we're starting to get an interplay
25     between the Chinese language and the mainstream media. 


 1     And this interplay is sort of inevitably leads to
 2     dialogue.
 3  1124                 For example, a few years ago, it may
 4     have been two or three years ago, I'm not sure when,
 5     Ming Pow ran a story about mainstream perceptions of
 6     the Chinese community.  Thorny issues were raised about
 7     how one culture's good manners could be questionable to
 8     another culture.  The issue was hotly debated in the
 9     Chinese community and the debate spilled over into the
10     pages of the Vancouver Sun.
11  1125                 Not long afterward and in no way
12     related to the above, racist graffiti incidents that
13     had alluded mainstream media scrutiny were extensively
14     reported in the Chinese press.  To the extent that they
15     were eventually brought to the mainstream media's
16     attention.
17  1126                 Nowadays, and Gabriel has more than
18     hinted at this, that the Vancouver Sun runs regular
19     ethnic press digests and translated letters to the
20     editor of Ming Pow.  These activities promote cultural
21     harmony by opening a media window into communities,
22     their concerns, their issues, their leaders and so on. 
23     And really validate the need for media diversity.
24  1127                 For several years now, Chinese
25     reporters have offered their best work for judging in


 1     the Jack Webster Work Journalism Awards.  These awards
 2     are, of course, named after another newcomer to Canada
 3     from an earlier wave of immigration.
 4  1128                 The Chinese community, although the
 5     largest, isn't by the only means the -- isn't by any
 6     means, the only ethnic community well-served by its
 7     media.  The East Asian community boasts a number of
 8     publications in English and other languages, including
 9     a high quality monthly magazine, "Mephil" (ph), that is
10     as well produced, topical and relevant as any
11     periodical on today's newsstands.
12  1129                 As well, Spanish, Vietnamese, and
13     many other ethnic publications testify to their
14     richness of our cultural diversity and the immensely
15     valuable role that media play in the lives of newcomers
16     to Canadian society.
17  1130                 Print is not the only media outlet,
18     of course.  On the broadcast side, two stations on the
19     AM band broadcast in Chinese and other non-English
20     languages.  There's also, of course, Rogers
21     multicultural channel, Chinese language Pay TV, ethnic
22     broadcasting on co-op radio and Indo-Canadian Pay
23     radio.
24  1131                 But these media, while holding
25     obvious value, are all but invisible to the mainstream


 1     because they're absent from the main section of the TV
 2     broadcast menu.
 3  1132                 Given television's dominant cultural
 4     role, a channel surfer from another planet or for that
 5     matter, from another country, would easily conclude
 6     that there isn't very much cultural richness in the
 7     Lower Mainland.  How wrong that would be.
 8  1133                 Thank you.
 9  1134                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
10     MacRae.
11  1135                 THE SECRETARY:  I'd like to invite
12     James Chung to present now, please.
14  1136                 MR. CHUNG:  Madame Chair, members of
15     the Commission, ladies and gentlemen.
16  1137                 Good evening.  My name is James
17     Chung, and I'm a first generation Canadian-born
18     Chinese.  I've been a practising artist and musician
19     for over ten years and as a part of that, I'm very
20     media conscious.  I've also lived in many different
21     places in Canada, not just in the Lower Mainland and
22     not just in B.C., but in different provinces.
23  1138                 I'm sure you can imagine what it's
24     like to be a kid going to a new school for the first
25     time, even if you haven't experienced it yourself. 


 1     There's that sense of alienation from not knowing
 2     anyone and not being part of a social group like all
 3     the other kids.  Not only are you alone, but you're
 4     also acutely aware that everyone else is checking you
 5     out as if you just landed from Mars.
 6  1139                 However, once you become integrated
 7     that sense of alienation disappears.  By then you've
 8     become an accepted part of the social fabric and you no
 9     longer stand out as being new.
10  1140                 But what if you can't integrate?  For
11     the scarce few who are visible minorities living
12     outside of the major cities in Canada, this is a
13     reality.  In rural or small town Canada, there is very
14     little, if any sense, that Canada is a multicultural
15     society.  In rural and small town Canada, traditional
16     white culture is so completely dominant that any ethnic
17     culture is considered as "foreign" culture and not part
18     of Canada.  In rural and small town Canada, traditional
19     white culture is defined as normal and anything outside
20     of that is weird, bizarre, strange or perhaps worse.
21  1141                 I wasn't born in a small town.  My
22     family moved to the Okanagan Valley when I was 12.  In
23     a town with a population of over 10,000, you could
24     count the number of Chinese families with your fingers. 
25     In my school which had over 700 students, there were


 1     only two other Chinese students, aside from my brother
 2     and myself and maybe three or four other students who
 3     were of colour.  Everyone else was white.
 4  1142                 I will concede that in general,
 5     people were racially tolerant there.  However,
 6     tolerance is not the same as acceptance.  In my
 7     experience, people from visible minorities have three
 8     options to deal with the realities of living in small
 9     town or rural Canada.
10  1143                 My brother, like many others have,
11     did his best to gain acceptance into the white
12     mainstream society through assimilation, which is not
13     the same as integration.  In order to fit the
14     mainstream's demand to be normal, he abandoned his
15     cultural heritage in favour of the dominant white
16     culture.  As a result, he no longer has any connection
17     with his ethnic roots.  He's Chinese only in terms of
18     his bloodlines.
19  1144                 The second option for visible
20     minorities in rural or small communities is to fit the
21     stereotype that people expect.  The other Chinese
22     students in my school did exactly that, they were the
23     quiet, meek, overly-studious nerds that white people
24     expected them to be.
25  1145                 Neither of those options were


 1     acceptable to me.  What I wanted was the ability or
 2     right to embrace my culture without being stereotyped
 3     or be trapped in its own traditions.  I wanted to be
 4     Chinese within the modern Canadian context, but without
 5     any kind of blueprint or role model of what that might
 6     entail, it took me years of conflict and struggle to
 7     arrive at a healthy conclusion.
 8  1146                 You might be wondering what all this
 9     has to do with Ethnic Broadcasting Policy.  While there
10     is some ethnocultural access to broadcast media in our
11     major cities, there is none outside of them.  This has
12     two effects.  First, it deprives ethnocultural
13     minorities in the rural or small communities of any
14     contact with their own culture.  And secondly, the
15     white majorities who live in these communities only see
16     how the mainstream media presents visible minorities,
17     which, quite frankly, does not often show us in a
18     favourable or realistic light, if they show us at all.
19  1147                 Mainstream media, in fact,
20     perpetuates the myth that to be a normal Canadian means
21     being white, even if your skin isn't.  In small towns,
22     particularly in the case of young people, not being
23     normal can mean social alienation.  But if being normal
24     comes with the cost of abandoning one's cultural
25     heritage the way my brother did, it's too high a price


 1     to pay in my opinion.
 2  1148                 Neither should visible minorities
 3     feel that the only alternative is to assume the
 4     stereotypical role that my schoolmates did.  In doing
 5     so, they marginalized themselves.  If the mainstream
 6     media continues its portrayal of ethnocultural
 7     minorities with convenient stereotypes, those
 8     stereotypes not only reinforce themselves among whites,
 9     but also among members of their own cultures, as well.
10  1149                 The stereotypical Chinese youth
11     portrayed in the mainstream media is either the geek or
12     the gangster.  Neither could be consider positive or
13     realistic images of the kinds of choices that should be
14     open to Chinese youth.
15  1150                 If my experience is at all similar to
16     others in the same circumstance, ethnic youth living in
17     smaller towns are presented a choice by the dominant
18     society: be like them or be like they expect you to be. 
19     I don't think it should be necessary to have to make
20     such a choice.
21  1151                 It is in my opinion that there needs
22     to be an improvement in the way ethnocultural
23     minorities living within smaller rural communities in
24     Canada are served.  The population of these groups are
25     often too small to generate the necessary demand for


 1     their own programming, even within their own community
 2     cable channel.
 3  1152                 Without some form of cultural
 4     representation within the broadcast media, not only are
 5     the ethnocultural minorities themselves deprived of
 6     their own culture, but it cuts off an avenue of
 7     communication between the minorities and the white
 8     majority.
 9  1153                 I'd also like to comment that
10     although there are some ethnocultural programming
11     available in our cities, all of that ethnocultural
12     programming exists in a media ghetto of volunteer
13     powered radio and television programs on channels or
14     stations only a very small number pay attention to.
15  1154                 What I'd like to see are some changes
16     that would affect the mainstream media's representation
17     of ethnocultural minorities since that is where the
18     social mainstream gets most of their information.
19  1155                 This is especially important outside
20     of the major population centres where the mainstream
21     media is the only easily accessible source of
22     information.  If Canada's truly supposed to be
23     multicultural, I think that the mainstream media should
24     reflect that, otherwise rural and small town Canada
25     will continue to consider ethnocultural minorities as


 1     un-Canadian.
 2  1156                 Thank you.
 3  1157                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 4     Chung.  I think Commissioner Cardozo has a question.
 5  1158                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thanks,
 6     Commissioner Grauer.
 7  1159                 I just want to ask about -- I've been
 8     doing a bit of an unscientific survey on the issue
 9     you're raising.  And I appreciate your bringing the
10     concerns of rural communities, because we've been
11     focusing our hearings in the larger urban centres and
12     certainly it's open to people to write in, but
13     invariably, I think we might hear from more people in
14     larger cities.
15  1160                 When we had a hearing about two or
16     three months ago on Canadian programming, we were
17     looking at a number of issues about Canadian
18     programming on television, more at the so-called
19     mainstream media and one of the questions we were
20     asking and one of the issues you're raising was to what
21     degree people were satisfied with how the mainstream
22     media programming reflected the diversity.  And one of
23     the Intervenors was the Chinese Canadian National
24     Council and when we asked them about the representation
25     of Asians, Chinese Canadians, in programming, this one


 1     person thought that the last time they had been a
 2     character in a program of Chinese or Asian descent was
 3     back in Degrassi Junior High, which is program that
 4     hasn't run in -- it's still running now, but it hasn't
 5     been produced in ten years.
 6  1161                 And I'm wondering if you're aware of
 7     any other programs that have, as regular characters,
 8     Chinese Canadians or other South East Asians.  I --
 9     you, go ahead.
10  1162                 MR. CHUNG:  I haven't actually -- I
11     hate to say it, but I watch a lot of TV, and --
12  1163                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Well, then you
13     can probably answer my question --
14  1164                 MR. CHUNG:  Yeah.  And the thing is,
15     I -- to my knowledge, there isn't a recurring character
16     of Asian descent that I've seen in recent memory.
17  1165                 MS CHUN:  There was a Vietnamese
18     character on 21 Jump Street.
19  1166                 MR. CHUNG:  Yeah, but Chun, my
20     neighbour next to me, mentioned there was a Vietnamese
21     character on 21 Jump Street, but again, that's also
22     from many years ago.  But since then, no, not to my
23     knowledge.
24  1167                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Well, it was
25     interesting, I was looking at some programs recently


 1     and just counting stuff like that.  And when DaVinci's
 2     Inquest started, they had a reference on the first
 3     night, the only non-white person or reference to a
 4     person of non-white was referred to as an Aboriginal
 5     woman who turned out to be dead because she was a
 6     prostitute on drugs.
 7  1168                 You know, it's not sort of something
 8     that we just talk about, it happens.  And a few
 9     episodes later, there was a portrayal of an Asian
10     person who was serving soup in a Chinese restaurant and
11     she was on for about two to three seconds, I would
12     think.  So there's not -- even though DaVinci's Inquest
13     is filmed here in Vancouver, whereas people repeatedly
14     told us, there's a very large Asian population, it
15     doesn't seem to -
16  1169                 MR. CHUNG:  Yeah.  The last time I
17     actually saw Chinese people on TV in recent memory was
18     an episode of Millennium.  But again, it was back -- we
19     were stereotyped again as gangsters, you know,
20     basically we were heroine dealers and people associated
21     with that trade.  And since then, that's the last time
22     I've seen any real major role for Asian people on TV.
23  1170                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  Thanks
24     very much.
25  1171                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.


 1  1172                 MR. YIU:  Sorry, if I can join, too,
 2     a little bit.
 3  1173                 Actually, in nowadays American
 4     television, there are more Asian or Chinese American
 5     roles, say Ally McBeal, is very popular in Vancouver,
 6     it has, well, a controversial, obvious Chinese American
 7     woman.  And also, on Saturday night, ABC channel, they
 8     have -- I forgot the name, it's a director from Hong
 9     Kong and also it's a -- the actor is called Samuel
10     Hong, it's about Kung Fu.
11  1174                 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  Marshal Law.
12  1175                 MR. YIU:  Yeah, Marshal Law, it's
13     also another recent episode -- sitcom from -- made in
14     Hollywood, has quite prominent Chinese American figures
15     there.
16  1176                 But I don't see similar thing happens
17     in Canada.
18  1177                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
19  1178                 THE SECRETARY:  I'd like to invite
20     Nathan Cho to make his presentation now, please.
22  1179                 MR. CHO:  I don't speak English very
23     well, so I just read what I wrote and I go ahead.
24  1180                 My name is Nathan Cho and I'm
25     providing Korean programming on Rogers multicultural


 1     channel and on a Specialty Pay TV Talentvision.  Over
 2     the past four years, I have been using these two
 3     channels to serve the needs of the Korean community in
 4     the Lower Mainland.
 5  1181                 Among many issues that your
 6     Commissioners put forward for public consultation
 7     today, I would like to talk about three issues which
 8     have a high degree of relevance to my current business
 9     experience.
10  1182                 First of all, I would like to talk
11     about how to nurture Canadian content in ethnic
12     programming.  I agree that it is better to have
13     Canadian produced ethnic programs than programs
14     imported from foreign sources.  About two months ago, I
15     wanted to launch a Korean language local news in
16     Vancouver in order to let my viewers know what is
17     developing in Canada.  I planned to divide the news
18     into two segments:  news developing in the Korean
19     community in Vancouver and news happening in the
20     mainstream society.
21  1183                 For the mainstream portion of the
22     news, I found it very hard and costly to cover it
23     without assistance from other conventional
24     broadcasters.  So I approached BCTV for a sharing of
25     their news footage.  I wanted to use their news footage


 1     with Korean voice-overs on the Rogers multicultural
 2     channel.  (I have done the same on Talentvision for the
 3     last three months and have watched the overwhelming
 4     responses from the viewers).  But BCTV management
 5     replied back with negative answers.  Maybe they thought
 6     that Rogers multicultural channel is one of their
 7     competitors, I really don't know.  In order to see that
 8     new immigrants integrate into Canadian society, we need
 9     to inform them about what's happening in Canada.
10  1184                 In other words, local news is good
11     for them and moreover, it is a Canadian content
12     program.  But it seems that other conventional TV
13     broadcasters are reluctant to give us a help.
14  1185                 I am going to knock at the CBC in the
15     coming weeks to see if I can use their news footage. 
16     To nurture Canadian content programming, small ethnic
17     producers like me find it difficult to get financial
18     resources.  If other conventional TV broadcasters are
19     at least willing to share their news footage with us
20     free of charge, we will be more equipped to carry out
21     Canadian content programming.
22  1186                 Secondly, I would like to talk about
23     cross-subsidization that is being practised by a
24     Toronto multilingual television station.  Some might
25     believe that some ethnic communities simply do not have


 1     the market forces to make their ethnic programming
 2     feasible.
 3  1187                 In several paragraphs of CRTC's
 4     Public Notice 1998-135, the CRTC implied that this
 5     Toronto station had to resort to revenues from the 40
 6     percent mainstream programming in their schedules in
 7     order to allow small ethnic communities to have their
 8     share of programming.  Well, that is a myth.  I have
 9     provided reasonably high quality Korean programming to
10     the Korean community whose population in Lower Mainland
11     is only about 30,000, and I did not need a subsidy of
12     any kind.
13  1188                 Why not allow competent independent
14     producers to carry out their ethnic programming at
15     their own cost.  Any future multilingual station should
16     allot time blocks to each competent ethnic producer,
17     and revenues generated from the commercial spots in
18     these time blocks should be taken by the producer for
19     the expenses that he incurred.
20  1189                 Finally, I would like to talk about a
21     measure of protection for existing ethnic station.  If
22     your Commissioners are thinking about launching a new
23     multilingual station in Vancouver, it is a good idea
24     but may have to make a provision for protection for
25     existing ethnic programming like mine.


 1  1190                 A lot of viewers watch my programs on
 2     Pay TV channel Talentvision do not want to pay the
 3     subscription fees, (they say, "Can we get rid of the
 4     scrambling device that is in place?").  The Korean
 5     viewers watching my programming on Rogers multicultural
 6     channel, which is a special programming, complain about
 7     the small number of hours of Korean programming on that
 8     channel.  Therefore, a new multilingual TV station
 9     delivering a sufficient amount of Korean programming
10     free over the air is highly in demand.  However, I
11     would like the Commissioners to take cautions in view
12     of my case, and take steps to maintain a balance
13     between current Specialty channels and any multilingual
14     stations that may be launched in the future.
15  1191                 One of the ways to clear up my
16     business dilemma might be that this new multilingual
17     programming station absorbed my current programming on
18     the Rogers multicultural channel and Talentvision.
19  1192                 Thank you very much for listening to
20     my presentation.  And thanks a lot for coming to
21     Vancouver.
22  1193                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
23     much.
24  1194                 THE SECRETARY:  Our next presenter
25     this evening is Mohammed Janief.


 2  1195                 MR. JANIEF:  Madame Chair, members of
 3     the Panel, ladies and gentlemen.
 4  1196                 Good evening.  My name is Janief
 5     Mohammed.  I've been here for about 15 years.  I'm an
 6     accountant, I practice accounting and income taxes.
 7  1197                 First of all, I'd like to thank the
 8     Commission and the Panel members for taking their time
 9     out in listening to the public.
10  1198                 As you have heard from all the other
11     members who have presented this evening, there is a cry
12     for more access.  And I'm also here saying, yes, we do
13     need more access.
14  1199                 There's a variety of reasons why we
15     need access.  I'll go into detail a little bit as we go
16     along.
17  1200                 If you look at me right now, I'm a
18     Muslim who was born in Fiji, I came here about 15 years
19     ago.  When I look at the TV, whatever -- I hardly see
20     any coverage of Muslims.  It's not that I want it, we
21     need it.  We need it because we need to preserve our
22     heritage and culture.  My kids are growing up, unless I
23     expose them to what my heritage and culture is it would
24     be lost.
25                                                        2000


 1  1201                 Let me give you an example, I'm a
 2     fifth generation.  My forefathers came from India to
 3     work on the sugar cane of Fiji -- sugar cane farms in
 4     Fiji Islands.  When their time as, I mentioned,
 5     labourers was over, they decided to stay back and make
 6     Fiji their home.  In doing so, what they did is they
 7     preserved their culture.  This is why -- the only
 8     reason why I am a Muslim today.  I'd have been lost --
 9     I would have never been able to speak the language my
10     parents, my forefathers spoke.
11  1202                 This is the reason why we need to
12     preserve our culture and heritage, otherwise our time
13     will come, we don't know who we are and where we came
14     from.
15  1203                 The other issue is the kids are
16     growing up and they have to be brought in an
17     environment so that they know how and what is
18     appropriate for them.  By sharing culture and tradition
19     with other communities and other ethnic groups, you
20     will learn tolerance and acceptance.
21  1204                 Sometimes I watch Chinese television. 
22     They're playing movies.  I don't understand their
23     language, yet I see it's -- and I find it interesting. 
24     But unless we interact with one another, we won't be
25     able to tolerate and accept other groups of people who


 1     live in Canada.
 2  1205                 Canada is a multiracial country, a
 3     truly multiracial.  But the only way we can live in
 4     peace and harmony is by learning to live the other
 5     sides culture and tradition.
 6  1206                 Recently we went through Ramadan. 
 7     Ramadan is one of the founding pillars of Islam, which
 8     is so important for us.  And one of the complaints I
 9     have is that the 30 days went by, there was hardly any
10     coverage on TV about Ramadan.  There was some talk
11     about it on CKNW and on the "Id" (ph) Day, the day of
12     the fasting and the prayer, there was some coverage in 
13     Vancouver Sun, which I appreciate.  But I think the
14     coverage wasn't enough.
15  1207                 It's not that I want the coverage, it
16     makes me feel proud.  Yes, I'm in a country where I'm
17     accepted, my religion and culture has been accepted. 
18     So others can know about it, what Muslim is.  Why did
19     these guys fast?  What's the reason behind it?
20  1208                 In conclusion, I would like to say
21     there is a need or there is room that maybe the CRTC
22     should think about in ways and means of opening other
23     channels so there is more room where other groups can
24     have access to this type of channels to present
25     their -- to present their culture and probably share


 1     the heritage with other groups of people.  How it can
 2     be done, I don't know, which is why, I guess, you
 3     occupy these big posts.
 4  1209                 But the access has to be in prime
 5     time.  There is no use in giving a community a time at
 6     twelve o'clock midnight or five o'clock in the morning,
 7     that's no good.  I know all of us, we want access.  How
 8     it can be done, I don't know, but the suggestion is
 9     that somehow everybody should have access to prime
10     time, by rotation or whatever means, so that we all
11     feel, yes, we are being treated fairly.  Fairness is
12     important and just to everybody.
13  1210                 The programming content has to be at
14     professional levels.  Sometimes I watch this
15     multicultural channel and it's -- the quality is poor,
16     especially if you look at, like, major TV stations,
17     CBC, NBC, ABC, they're done professional --
18     professionally, there reason being is they compete with
19     the other stations to maintain their status as number
20     one.
21  1211                 So at the same token, we should
22     not -- we should maintain an element of
23     professionalism, too.  You cannot say, "Oh, here's your
24     channel, do some programming", present this side or
25     that side of the story and most of the time, I think


 1     and I see is we import a drama from another country and
 2     play it in here, which is not appropriate.  We need
 3     coverage of what is going on in Canada and how we can
 4     relate and live here and get locally produced stuff.
 5  1212                 As a last remark, I think new
 6     channels should be added on and there's a need for why
 7     we, as Muslims, we need.  I mean, if someone looks at
 8     me and they say -- naturally, the first thing comes to
 9     this guy is "He's East Indian", which is probably
10     right, I am East Indian.  But on the other side of the
11     coin, I'm not only East Indian, I am a Muslim, too.  My
12     religion, my heritage is very important to me and so it
13     be for my children.
14  1213                 As a last resort, the only way you
15     can preserve your religion and your heritage is by
16     maintaining it and practising it.  To keep on doing
17     that and to expose it to other people, you need access
18     and the only way access is is by television and other
19     news media.  Television is one of the most -- is the
20     best means to pass on or convey a message.  Nobody
21     wants to read.
22  1214                 The new -- which is true.  I used to
23     read books like one book every day -- a week when I was
24     in high school, today I hardly do so.  I'd rather watch
25     TV.


 1  1215                 Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very
 2     much for your time.
 3  1216                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 4     much.  I believe that Commissioner Cardozo has a
 5     question.
 6  1217                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Yeah, I have a
 7     tough question for you, especially because you said you
 8     don't know how to fix the issue.
 9  1218                 What you and a number of people have
10     talked about today is the issue of portrayal -- fair
11     portrayal of Muslims or of other communities or of our
12     diversity.  And you've raised the issue of better
13     access on the multicultural channel and this proceeding
14     that we're having today is really about the ethnic
15     media.
16  1219                 But part of it is, if it all happens
17     in the multicultural channel and as you've mentioned,
18     you've talked about quality, yesterday Mobina Jaffer
19     talked about concerns around quality.  If people don't
20     watch the multicultural channel because the quality is
21     not good or because it's in various languages and they
22     may be unilingual and they don't feel they're going to
23     get a kick out of that channel, so they tend not to
24     tune in there, then what have you accomplished by
25     getting your access on there?


 1  1220                 Do you need to have both the
 2     portrayal on other channels -- which is more important,
 3     the portrayal in all the other 50 channels or better
 4     access on this one or is it both?
 5  1221                 MR. JANIEF:  I think both.  It's --
 6     the more the better.
 7  1222                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Right.
 8  1223                 MR. JANIEF:  Once you get access to
 9     it, they say practice makes perfect.  Unless you have
10     access to it, you cannot practice to improve it.  Right
11     now we don't have access to it.  When you look at other
12     people and criticize and all of a sudden you're doing
13     something wrong, you want to go back and correct it,
14     improve it.
15  1224                 I think access is the main thing at
16     the moment.  Unless we have access, you cannot bring in
17     professionalism and improve it, improve the content.
18  1225                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So are you
19     saying that the multicultural channel becomes a
20     training ground to get that professional --
21  1226                 MR. JANIEF:  I don't know.  I'm sure
22     there are professional people in this area who know how
23     to do programming and how to present programs.  I'm
24     just a layman accountant --
25  1227                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  No, that's why


 1     I'm asking you the questions.
 2  1228                 MR. JANIEF:  I think it would not be
 3     right to say we use the multicultural channel as a
 4     training ground and get an access, which is kind of,
 5     probably selfish and greedy, right.  I mean, if you
 6     want to do something right, let's do it right from the
 7     beginning, rather than take advantage of something here
 8     and then go on to something else.  That's my
 9     philosophy.
10  1229                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  Thanks
11     very much.  Thanks Commissioner Grauer.
12  1230                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
13  1231                 MS PHAM:  Could I just make a
14     comment?  I'm not sure if --
15  1232                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.
17  1233                 MS PHAM:  -- might dig something out
18     of, you know, that -- I was just -- I had a point,
19     actually regarding what you've brought up during my
20     presentation and I completely forgot about it because I
21     wrote it in the margin.
22  1234                 And that has to do with the
23     multicultural channel.  It's interesting that every
24     time --
25  1235                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I think you're


 1     blessed.
 2     --- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques
 3     --- Laughter / Rires
 4  1236                 MS PHAM:  Yeah.  So anyhow, I wanted
 5     to make a comment regarding the existence of a
 6     multicultural channel and how that serves multicultural
 7     communities in Canada.
 8  1237                 And I think that it's very
 9     understandable that as the first step, when we, as a
10     political movement, that when we first mobilized then
11     it's understandable that we have our own kind of medium
12     or our own space to carry out our work.  But I think
13     that eventually as we become more sophisticated in
14     terms of how we want to reach our audience, that
15     eventually we want not to have something that is
16     multicultural only, designated as multicultural, but I
17     think probably eventually we will want to move into
18     more mainstream outlets.
19  1238                 And that's when things get really
20     exciting, I think, because then we achieve some sort
21     of -- because only then can we achieve equal status.
22  1239                 I've often been concerned that having
23     a multicultural channel or station, while that's really
24     important, it somehow -- it seems to me that it may
25     just be a kind of a token -- a token action.  And so I


 1     think that it's not enough just to have that, I think
 2     eventually we should be ambitious and think big and go
 3     wherever we can.
 4  1240                 Thank you.
 5  1241                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 6  1242                 THE SECRETARY:  We have one more
 7     presenter for this panel before we break.  I'd ask Rena
 8     Heer to make her presentation.
10  1243                 MS HEER:  Hi.  Actually, we're sort
11     of a partnership here, so...  Atish is supposed to
12     speak before me.  So would you do that?  Thanks.
13  1244                 We're going to keep it really short,
14     though.
15  1245                 MR. RAM:  My name is Atish Ram, I'm a
16     producer on a television show called "Zindagi" (ph) on
17     the Rogers multicultural channel.
18  1246                 I, as well as my friends, have --
19     came from the Fiji Islands, Islands of Fiji, 30 years
20     ago as a child.  Growing up here in Vancouver, I was
21     caught between two cultures, one holding on to my
22     heritage of what I've learned as an individual or a
23     small child in Fiji, as well as adapting to the new --
24     my new home in Canada.
25  1247                 Growing up I realized that there was


 1     a communication gap and there was a generation gap with
 2     the elders as well as the new Canadians that were born
 3     here.  And I found that there was a very -- a need to
 4     put a programming on television that not only
 5     recognized our culture, but also taught us and our
 6     elders the way of life in Vancouver or in Canada.
 7  1248                 It was a very -- it was a big
 8     struggle, because when I started developing this
 9     program, there was other programs that were already in
10     place, and I think the CRTC regulations or the
11     multicultural channel regulations at that time was that
12     they would only allow a certain amount of hours or --
13     to a specific ethnic group based on the population. 
14     For example, when I went to apply for a Fijian program,
15     they said that there was already a couple of Fijian
16     programs that were already in place, so therefore
17     there's only 10,000, 15,000 Fijian people, so therefore
18     they would not allow another half hour programming.
19  1249                 Two and a half year battle with
20     Rogers multicultural channel, I developed another show,
21     called "Zindagi".  "Zindagi" means life.  And I wanted
22     to do this show based on -- this program based on the
23     entire community at large, South Asian community in
24     particular, but since the program has hit the airways,
25     we've had many ethnic groups, such as Chinese, Italian,


 1     Iranian, even the Caucasian people watching this
 2     program, mainly because the entire program is done in
 3     English.
 4  1250                 And because I chose to do this in
 5     English, because I wanted to not only highlight and
 6     profile prominent members of the community and show the
 7     community in Vancouver that we're not the stereotyped,
 8     you know, taxi drivers or cab drivers that we get
 9     perceived to be, but we are also doctors, lawyers,
10     journalists and what have you.
11  1251                 This entire program is funded by
12     myself.  I have invested approximately $80,000 of my
13     own money into purchasing equipment.  Equipment that is
14     20 years old.  I've also volunteer, as well as have
15     volunteers who are aspiring and perspiring journalists
16     who plan to be a journalist in the instrument of
17     television, and they're a wonderful group of people.
18  1252                 This is a totally non-funded -- I
19     mean, non-profit organization.  We cover things such as
20     breast cancer, alcoholism, spousal abuse, AIDS,
21     homosexuality, things that have never, ever been
22     touched in our ethnic community, which is a taboo in
23     our ethnic community.  We are showing that and voicing
24     it through our youth and saying our elders that this
25     exists, let's wake up and smell the coffee.


 1  1253                 On the other hand, we're also
 2     reviewing Indian movies, as well as Indian CDs to bring
 3     in music forth in this program to also educate our
 4     youngsters that this is also our culture and our
 5     heritage, as well.
 6  1254                 I guess they want us out of here,
 7     right?
 8     --- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques
 9  1255                 MR. RAM:  Since it's inception in
10     1997, the show has grown dramatically.  We still
11     maintain to keep it half hour time slot.  We would like
12     to go mainstream, we'd like to go further, we'd like to
13     expand our show more.  However, lack of funding is one
14     of the things, and of course, time is the other thing.
15  1256                 It takes approximately 40 to 60 hours
16     a week to produce this one half hour show every week of
17     volunteer time.  I have a crew of 15 people, as well as
18     myself.  And what I also do is also with my experience
19     in television and film for the last 20 years, I give an
20     opportunity to the youth to come in and learn with me
21     and to -- also what we do is the entire profits of this
22     program is donated to Children's Hospital.  We work
23     together with the Children's Hospital Foundation, as
24     well as the Willingdon Youth Detention Centre.
25  1257                 The girls, the people, the youth that


 1     are on my program periodically go to Children's
 2     Hospital and work with the little children to learn
 3     about their lives, because I -- and also to the
 4     Willingdon Youth Detention Centre to talk to or to
 5     present their views and just to sit and chat with the
 6     delinquent kids that are spending time there.
 7  1258                 In return, they gain vast knowledge,
 8     and through this program, they -- not only do we show
 9     the community, the public -- I mean, the television
10     viewing audience what we're all about, but we also
11     train the individuals that are in this program.
12  1259                 And Rena here is one of the hosts
13     that's on the show and she would like to talk about
14     mainly what is "Zindagi" has done for her life.
15  1260                 MS HEER:  Hi everyone.  I'm a 22-year
16     old SFU almost-grad.  And the reason I am working with
17     "Zindagi" is because I have an interest in
18     broadcasting, but moreover, my interest initially was
19     in South Asian culture.
20  1261                 I grew up, for the first 18 years of
21     my life, I grew up in Clearwater, B.C., which I know
22     nobody really has heard of, and --
23  1262                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I have.
24  1263                 MS HEER:  Oh, excellent.  That's
25     awesome. Wow!  I'm so impressed.


 1  1264                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, good.
 2     --- Laughter / Rires
 3  1265                 MS HEER:  And we had two television
 4     stations.  We had BCTV and we had the CBC.  And BCTV
 5     was very fuzzy, so all we had was the CBC.
 6  1266                 And we got about half an hour of
 7     television every single night.  So most of my time that
 8     I spent with entertainment was sort of, like, the
 9     reading type of entertainment and thank God for that.
10  1267                 But, when I moved to Vancouver and I
11     watched the multicultural channel, I was so overwhelmed
12     and so surprised and so happy because people like me
13     were on TV.  And some of the time they were presenting
14     things that I really needed to see, the things that I
15     could really connect with.  And that really encouraged
16     me as a young 18-year old who, even though I came from
17     a community where 15 percent of the population was
18     South Asian, we were a relatively unacknowledged type
19     of -- unacknowledged community.
20  1268                 So first of all, I'd like to say
21     that, that even anything is progressive and what we
22     have here is really, truly, when we look at other parts
23     of the world or when we look at the rest of North
24     America, is wonderful.
25  1269                 We can still go forward, there's a


 1     lot to do, but what we have here is wonderful and it
 2     can be built upon and I am optimistic about what the
 3     future of ethnic broadcasting holds for us here in B.C.
 4     or in the Lower Mainland, for sure.
 5  1270                 Specifically, I want to talk about
 6     "Zindagi", really quickly.  And what I want to say
 7     about "Zindagi" is it's not just a forum for me
 8     personally to express how I feel about my culture or
 9     what my culture is about, but it's also an opportunity. 
10     It's an opportunity to gain some confidence in my
11     abilities as a reporter/journalist.  It's an
12     opportunity to get into the South Asian community and
13     learn about what really impacts everybody else.  And
14     it's also an opportunity, as self-serving as this might
15     sound, is to tell people exactly what I think about
16     anything.
17  1271                 But also, "Zindagi" is not just us
18     getting up on camera and saying, "Look, you know,
19     here's another brown face on TV.  Rah!", it's about
20     learning and imparting values and sharing with each
21     other.  We learn -- we've got -- we learn about
22     friendship and teamwork.  We're a team of 15 people, we
23     work together, and we try to make things happen.  We've
24     gotten involved in the community so that we're not
25     thinking that everybody must be like me and I'm Punjabi


 1     speaking, I'm Sikh and everything else, but that's
 2     Gujarati people out there and there's people who are
 3     Hindu and people who are Muslim and within Muslims you
 4     have people who come from Fiji, you have people who
 5     come from India, you have people who come from
 6     Pakistan.
 7  1272                 So it's really a lesson for all of
 8     us, even though, you know, we are South Asian, but we
 9     don't profess to know it all and we're learning about
10     each other.  And what we're trying to do is provide a
11     representative face for all South Asians and not try to
12     be too Punjabi-centric, because Punjabis are -- Punjabi
13     speaking people do make up the bulk of the South Asian
14     community in Vancouver.
15  1273                 So it's -- when we first came to
16     "Zindagi" most of us got a two-hour speech from Atish
17     and what he told us is, "Listen, Zindagi is your
18     opportunity.  You have certain commitments to the
19     community, you've got to put in your time, you've got
20     to help people out where you can.  You've got to get
21     involved with me in Children's Hospital and the
22     Willingdon Youth Detention Centre", he goes, "But it's 
23     your opportunity.  You can do so much with this. 
24     You're going to get exposure in the community.  You'll
25     be able to -- if you think you're right somewhere,


 1     you'll be able to tell people that and say, yeah, I'm
 2     on TV so I'm right".  Just kidding, it doesn't really
 3     happen.
 4  1274                 But it's really -- it's excellent for
 5     someone like me who was 21 when she joined the show and
 6     thought, "Hey, you know, I'd love to be on VTV, but how
 7     am I going to get there?  And do I have what it takes? 
 8     Or do I know what I'm doing or where I'm going?"  So
 9     even though I pursue my career in information
10     technology in the daytime, I go over to Atish's studio
11     later on and try to pursue this other dream that I
12     have.
13  1275                 And most of the girls on our show,
14     and we're predominantly girls, and I don't know why,
15     but most of us, we're just avid learners and we're
16     hopeful about what the Lower Mainland holds for us,
17     because, you know, most of us have come from smaller
18     communities.  We have a couple of girls from Nanaimo
19     and two of us are from Clearwater -- go figure that
20     out -- and to most of are just very hopeful and very
21     wanting to make a contribution.
22  1276                 And wanting, ultimately, to be in the
23     mainstream to see the mainstream community and the
24     ethnic community sort of integrated and working
25     together so there's not so much of that sort of -- that


 1     divide that's holding us onto this multicultural
 2     channel and reaching out to only South Asian youth, but
 3     instead, sort of becoming integrated and being able to
 4     tell people what we're about.
 5  1277                 I had the opportunity to appear on
 6     Global Television for a few seconds, and it was great,
 7     because even though the issue was the tables and chairs
 8     issue, which we're all sick of, in the Sikh community
 9     it still gave me the opportunity to be recognized as
10     someone who had a valid opinion and able to maybe make
11     some remarks that had some validity and have all of --
12     have everybody in the Lower Mainland hear about what I
13     thought.
14  1278                 And to be able to understand that
15     people are recognizing us and saying, "Oh, these are
16     people that have something to say" and their input into
17     something we're presenting is valid, was reassuring. 
18     Of course, we cut out all the important stuff that I
19     said.
20  1279                 So basically what we want to do is we
21     want to make people think, like Atish said, we want to
22     make them think about things that they don't want to
23     hear about, homosexuality and spousal abuse and
24     anything else we can get into.  Right now, our image is
25     tables and chairs, Bindie JoHall, and terrorist


 1     organizations, which we also looked at and Atish is
 2     afraid of some repercussions that might hold, but
 3     that's okay.
 4  1280                 And that's just -- that's not just
 5     who we are.
 6  1281                 So basically, like I said, our goal
 7     is to generally become more mainstream and to have a
 8     more positive outlook for the South Asian community and
 9     say that we are needed, we are necessary, our
10     viewpoints are important and like I said, in little
11     strides and like, in the way that we sort of made our
12     way into Global and said, "You know what?  This is not
13     necessarily the whole picture.  It's about this, as
14     well".  The fact that we were able to do that and we
15     are getting some sort of opportunity is sort of a
16     testament to the extent that we've sort of come in the
17     Lower Mainland.
18  1282                 So basically that's about it and
19     thank you very much.
20  1283                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
21     much.  Your passion and enthusiasm are quite infectious
22     and I'm sure you've a very bright future ahead of you. 
23     Thank you.
24  1284                 Madame Secretary, is that it for
25     this...?


 1  1285                 THE SECRETARY:  That's all for this
 2     panel.
 3  1286                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  We will now
 4     take, I think, a five or ten minute -- ten minute
 5     break, maybe.  But I'd just like to thank all of you
 6     who were here for coming tonight and sharing your views
 7     with us.  It's very important to us in terms of our
 8     work that we have the benefit of the views and the
 9     experience of people in communities across the country. 
10     So I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank you.
11  1287                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I just want to
12     add a word to what Commissioner Grauer said.
13  1288                 You asked her if she knew where
14     Clearwater is and somebody else thanked us for coming
15     to Vancouver.  Commissioner Grauer is from Vancouver
16     and is a British Columbia Commissioner.  On the
17     Commission, there's 12 of us.  I'm one of the folks who
18     lives in Ottawa.  There are people who do that and
19     enjoy it, actually.
20     --- Laughter / Rires
21  1289                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  But -- and
22     Marguerite Vogel is the --
23  1290                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, don't get
24     carried away --
25  1291                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  No, I can't. 


 1     Marguerite Vogel is the Director of the CRTC office
 2     here in -- for the Region of British Columbia.  It is
 3     usually Commissioner Grauer around the table who's
 4     asking us whether we know where Clearwater is and
 5     usually her who's thanking us for coming to Vancouver. 
 6     So she is very often the advocate for all sorts of
 7     issues that are relevant to you.  But it's certainly
 8     more than education for me.
 9  1292                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
10                                                        2030
11     --- Recess / Pause
12  1293                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  What I will do is I
13     believe that concludes our proceedings.  And I'd like
14     to thank everybody for coming here to share their views
15     with us and assisting us in ensuring that we've heard
16     from a broad, diverse group of Canadians in the
17     development of our ethnic policies.  So thank you all
18     very much.
19  1294                 I'd also like to thank our reporter
20     and ISTS.
21     --- Whereupon the hearing concluded at 2037/
22         L'audience se termine à 2037

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