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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES SUBJECT / SUJET: PUBLIC HEARING ON THIRD LANGUAGE AND ETHNIC PROGRAMMING / AUDIENCE PUBLIQUE SUR LA PROGRAMMATION MULTILINGUE ET À CARACTÈRE ETHNIQUE HELD AT: TENUE À: Dunsmuir Seniors Centre Dunsmuir Seniors Centre 411 Dunsmuir Street 411 Dunsmuir Street Vancouver, B.C. Vancouver (C.-B.) February 2, 1999 Le 2 février 1999 Volume 2 tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668 Transcripts In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of Contents. However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the public hearing. Transcription Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience publique ainsi que la table des matières. Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l'audience publique. tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668 Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des télécommunications canadiennes Transcript / Transcription Public Hearing / Audience publique Third Language and Ethnic Programming / Programmation multilingue et à caractère ethnique BEFORE/DEVANT: C. Grauer Chairperson / Présidente A. Cardozo Commissioner / Conseiller ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS: M. Vogel Secretary / Secrétaire D. Jones Legal Counsel/Conseillers G. Batstone juridiques HELD AT: TENUE À: Dunsmuir Seniors Centre Dunsmuir Seniors Centre 411 Dunsmuir Street 411 Dunsmuir Street Vancouver, B.C. Vancouver (C.-B.) February 2, 1999 Le 2 février 1999 Volume 2 tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668 ii TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES PAGE Presentation by / Présentation par: Civic Youth Strategy 156 Mr. Prasad 161 Nosotros Television 168 The Latin American Community Council 174 Ms Ekramoddoulla 183 RimJhim Radio 187 Progressive Intercultural Community 200 Services Society Sikh Community Lodge 211 Paul Gill 214 Mr. Aujla 221 MOSAIC 228 Christian Task Force on Central America 240 Mr. Azam 244 Mr. Nurany 249 Mr. Yiu 255 National Campus & Community Radio 263 Association Mr. Koya 271 Mr. MacRae 278 Mr. Chung 284 Korean Canadian TV 293 Mr. Janief 298 Ms Pham 306 Rogers Multicultural Service 308 tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668 151 1 Vancouver, B.C. / Vancouver (C.-B.) 2 --- Upon commencing on Tuesday, February 2, 1999 3 at 1603 / L'audience débute le mardi 2 février 4 1999 à 1603 5 622 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, 6 ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to Day 2 of our public 7 consultation here in Vancouver that we are holding to 8 review our Ethnic Broadcasting Policy. 9 623 My name is Cindy Grauer, I'm the 10 Regional Commissioner for British Columbia and the 11 Yukon. And allow me to introduce my colleague, Andrew 12 Cardozo, a CRTC Commissioner from Ottawa. 13 624 My Commission and colleagues will be 14 listening to the comments and the views presented by 15 participants in these consultations which are being 16 held here in Vancouver, as well as in Montreal, 17 Halifax, Toronto and Winnipeg. They will be concluding 18 tomorrow. We will also be receiving written comments 19 and documents by e-mail. All submissions, both oral 20 and written, will form part of the public record. 21 Objective of the consultations 22 625 These consultations are part of a 23 process the CRTC began two years ago to review its 24 major policies for the Canadian broadcasting system, 25 including television and radio. StenoTran 152 1 626 The goal of these consultations is to 2 help the CRTC examine the policies and regulations that 3 were established in 1985 when a Broadcasting Policy 4 Reflecting Canada's Cultural and Linguistic Diversity 5 was issued. One of the most important goals of this 6 policy is to ensure that the Canadian broadcasting 7 system serves the needs and interests of all Canadians 8 by reflecting their ethnocultural diversity in an 9 effective manner. 10 627 However, since this policy was 11 issued, Canada's demographic profile has changed 12 considerably, and the amount of third language and 13 ethnic programming available in the Canadian 14 broadcasting system has increased substantially. 15 628 By looking into these issues around 16 ethnic broadcasting, we are asking: are the goals of 17 the current policy still valid? And, is the policy 18 still effective in attaining these goals? 19 629 Public Notice 1998-135 set out a 20 series of questions and invited your views in response. 21 We are ready to hear your comments. But, before we do, 22 allow me to go on to some housekeeping matters 23 regarding the conduct of this consultation. 24 Housekeeping matters 25 630 CRTC staff assisting us during this StenoTran 153 1 consultation are Geoff Batstone, Dylan Jones and 2 Marguerite Vogel, who is the Director of our Western 3 and Territories Regional Office, and will be our 4 Hearing Secretary. I invite you to call on them with 5 any questions you may have, including any questions 6 about the process today, and for the rest of the 7 proceeding. 8 631 Our intention is to have the session 9 run until all participants have been heard. The 10 secretary will call each presenter in order. If you 11 want to make a presentation, but have not registered in 12 advance, please let the secretary know. Time 13 permitting, we will try to fit you into the schedule. 14 632 To ensure that all parties have an 15 opportunity to make a presentation, we ask that you 16 limit your comments to ten minutes. 17 633 The proceedings will be transcribed 18 and the transcript will form part of the record upon 19 which the Commission makes its decision. So that the 20 people responsible for this task can provide an 21 accurate record, I would ask that, when you speak, you 22 press the small red button on the microphone in front 23 of you. This activates the microphone, and is 24 indicated by a red light. 25 634 For those of you who prefer to submit StenoTran 154 1 your comments in writing, comment cards are available 2 at the back of the room, and from the secretary. If 3 you have any comments you would like to pass on, just 4 write them on a card, sign it and give it to the 5 secretary before the end of the session. 6 635 I would also like to add that anyone 7 can file any written submissions or comments up until 8 the 4th of March. 9 636 Now, what we will probably do is -- 10 we found it worked effectively last night, is take a 11 break after each panel, which is probably in about an 12 hour and a half. 13 637 We also, while we have quite a few 14 people registered tonight, we haven't -- we don't quite 15 if everybody's going to show up. Last night was a 16 little shorter than usual. What we have been doing is 17 restricting ourselves from asking questions in the 18 interest of ensuring that we hear from you, because 19 that's really what we're here to be, is listening. So 20 while we may have the odd question of clarification, 21 don't interpret a lack of questioning on our part as a 22 lack of interest, but rather a desire to ensure that we 23 hear fully from all the participants. 24 638 So I think that's... 25 639 Now, let's call our first presenter, StenoTran 155 1 Madame Secretary. 2 640 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, 3 Commissioner Grauer. 4 641 I would just like to check to make 5 sure that the first ten people are around the table. 6 We find that we can cut down on commute time if ten 7 people sit at the table and do their presentations and 8 then we can have everyone move away from the table and 9 ten more presenters come up. So if you could just wave 10 if I call your name, I'd appreciate it. 11 642 Marie Didas, is that how you 12 pronounce your name? Thanks. 13 643 Muneshar Prasad, thank you. Eduardo 14 Aragon, thank you. Lubna Ekramoddoulla, thanks. 15 Shushma Datt, Charan Gill, Wai Young? 16 644 WAI YOUNG: I'm sorry. I'm actually 17 here to interpret for the seniors later. 18 645 THE SECRETARY: Okay. 19 646 Thank you. 20 647 Paul Gill, and Darshan Aujla. Thank 21 you very much. 22 648 I'm sorry, I missed Balwant Gill. 23 Thank you, Mr. Gill. 24 649 Okay. I would invite Marie Didas to 25 make her presentation first. StenoTran 156 1 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 2 650 MS DIDAS: Hi. My name's Marie 3 Didas. I'm from the Civic Youth Strategy. We're a 4 youth organization that liaises with other city youth 5 councils and we make presentations to City Council 6 based on issues that relate to youth. We have about 10 7 members. 8 651 Okay. I guess I'm just answering 9 these questions, right? So the first question would 10 be: 11 "To what extent does the present 12 broadcasting system adequately 13 serve Canada's ethnocultural 14 communities?" 15 652 I'm not sure that it serves it that 16 well because it's pretty low key. I don't think the 17 ethnic programming is promoted in such a way that 18 people know it even exists. I've heard of maybe one or 19 two programs myself and they're on the radio. I've 20 seen some on TV but usually it's, like, movies from 21 other countries and that type of stuff; I've never seen 22 anything that's local media about local culture groups 23 or whatnot. 24 653 The one radio station that I've seen 25 that's ethnic based is pretty good, but compared to StenoTran 157 1 other radio programming, I don't think it's got the 2 level of quality and it seems less organized and that 3 kind of stuff. For being the only radio programming 4 that I've seen that's ethnic, it's pretty good; but 5 that's because there's not much to gauge it with, I 6 can't compare it to anything else, but if you do 7 compare it to mainstream radio it's, like, visibly 8 less. It's visibly lower quality and it could totally 9 be improved. 10 654 The same thing with ethnic 11 programming on TV. There isn't just -- there just 12 isn't, like, promotion or presentation. When you watch 13 it, it just doesn't measure up to everything else and 14 that's why the level of interest is probably going to 15 be lower because you look at it and you're just, like 16 -- it's just not as good as everything -- it's just not 17 as good as everything else, but it could be if the 18 level -- I don't know, the quality is improved. 19 655 I'm sure that it serves some people 20 well, but for me as a youth, an ethnic minority, I see 21 very little broadcasting that appeals to me or serves 22 my interests or my needs or what I like or whatnot. 23 656 Okay. I'm going to move on to the 24 second question. 25 "Given the demographic changes StenoTran 158 1 that have taken place in Canada, 2 how can the needs and interests 3 of ethnocultural communities 4 continue to be served?" 5 657 Okay. I think in order for the needs 6 to be served, it's important to find out what they are 7 continually and I guess this is what you're doing right 8 now and that's great. That's definitely good. 9 658 As a youth, I'd love to see more 10 ethnic programming that's just geared to youths, that, 11 like local youth ethnic activities that's going on and 12 cultural events. And even, like, if you're coming from 13 another culture programming that's geared to help you 14 adjust to this culture, kind of thing. That would be 15 great to see. I'd also like to see any -- I don't 16 know, any kind of thing that's going on, just local 17 stuff, it would be really interesting. But it's not 18 going to attract me unless it's presented well or 19 promoted enough for me to even know about its 20 existence. 21 659 I think there's plenty of youth 22 interest in local ethnic community stuff, but it's 23 just -- it's still the awareness factor. It's just you 24 really don't know about it. I think youth from here 25 would probably be interested in learning about local -- StenoTran 159 1 like local ethnic community stuff, as well, but again, 2 it's just the presentation when they're looking at 3 other stuff on TV or hearing other stuff on the radio, 4 it just doesn't reach out. It just doesn't make it any 5 more appealing. 6 660 And one thing that bothers me is the 7 way other cultures are presented by media here 8 sometimes. Like, I'll go to school and people will be 9 asking me about Ethiopia, where I come from, and 10 they'll say stuff like, "Did you live in a hut there?" 11 and "Were you starving?", and that's what I see in 12 media here. It's often very unbalanced and they'll 13 show negative things and I'd really, like, personally 14 be happy if they'd focus on local positive things and 15 like, kind of things that would make people interested 16 in watching and learning about other cultures. That'd 17 just be a good thing, I think. 18 661 Finally: 19 "Should there be a priority on 20 the development of Canadian 21 ethnocultural services rather 22 than important foreign 23 services?" 24 662 I guess that would be logical, 25 because since we're here, we have to talk about the StenoTran 160 1 surrounding issues and local ethnic stuff rather than 2 stuff from another country. It doesn't -- it doesn't 3 -- I don't know, it just doesn't make much sense to me. 4 If it's here it should reflect what's going on around 5 us and there's plenty -- I think that there's plenty of 6 cultural organizations and events that are happening 7 here, that could totally be covered. And that kind of 8 stuff is also the kind of stuff that would interest all 9 the other, you know, the kids who live here and the 10 other people who live here, because they don't want to 11 see, like, out-of-date movies from who knows where, 12 like, I don't know, out-of-date stuff that has nothing 13 to do with what's going on here. That's what is going 14 to interest people, that's what's going to interest 15 youth, in my opinion and that's what's going to 16 interest me, as well. 17 663 I also know a lot of people that take 18 part in local ethnic cultural events and they'd love to 19 have their things publicized, but there's just nobody 20 knows how to access it or that it even exists, and so 21 it's really, really hard. I just think if more 22 promotion and that kind of stuff went on, then it could 23 be way better and just more appealing. 24 664 That's about it. Any questions? 25 665 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. No, StenoTran 161 1 thank you very much. 2 666 MS DIDAS: Okay. Thank you. 3 667 THE SECRETARY: I'd like to invite 4 Muneshar Prasad to make his presentation now. 5 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 6 668 MR. PRASAD: Thank you. 7 669 I would like to thank the CRTC for 8 according this opportunity for me to speak as an 9 interested member of the public on this very, very 10 important issue. 11 670 Before I proceed, Madame Chair, I 12 wish to divert from the format to which I did not have 13 until now, the question and answers, so I may be 14 rumbling a little bit, or rambling a little bit, so 15 please bear with me. 16 671 I'm of the opinion at first, that we 17 must forthwith restore our national basis programming 18 for First Nations. When CBC had this program and then 19 the cuts came about, this program was lost. I rather 20 -- I'm not interested in -- on radio program as it 21 happens that which dog bit who where in England. That's 22 got nothing to do with me. I want the programming to 23 be brought at the local level and at the national level 24 and I think it will meet section 3(d)(i) of the Act 25 under which you are bound. It'll meet the requirements StenoTran 162 1 of multicultural society and ethnocultural needs if 2 that is implied. 3 672 At this time, I wish to now address 4 my mind to few other things. That we have got a large 5 community here of recent immigrants or immigrants who 6 have arrived a few years ago who do not have the 7 knowledge of English or French, and as a result of 8 that, that there is no national policy that whereby the 9 national policies are in -- are told through media to 10 this elderly citizens of ours. So they are basically 11 bound by innuendos or people taking advantage of these 12 people. What we really need, if the government has a 13 policy like everything is gazetted, that's the 14 government arm of decimating information. CBC Radio 15 and CBC Television should be doing that. 16 673 It is very important that the eldest 17 are made to feel at home in this country. Then we have 18 got private broadcasters and TV people, they are going 19 through difficult times, but they may have their own 20 agendas, which may not be my national agenda or our 21 national agenda, because we have to still build a 22 country. A 60 year person once asked me "Why is Quebec 23 giving us so much trouble?" Now, if this program was 24 in Hindi, if the issues were explained in Hindi, now 25 this elderly person would have understood that -- what StenoTran 163 1 was happening to our country, what is happening to our 2 country today. So the information had to be told to 3 this particular person through me, rightly or wrongly. 4 674 So these are some of the issues that 5 we are looking at. Also, if we are going in to 6 preventive health plan, you know, as I know, that the 7 -- that the people of the First Nations suffer from 8 diabetes, so do the East Indians. The First Nations 9 suffer from very high rate of heart failure and 10 arterial diseases, so do the East Indians. If an 11 education through radio or through TV is done, what are 12 we doing in here? What we are doing is basically we 13 are saving taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars 14 in the long run. We are producing not philosopher 15 citizens -- kings, but philosopher citizens, which is 16 also very important that the knowledge becomes common. 17 And that's it, it is utilized. 18 675 My hope and my aspersion is this, 19 that that -- that there be some ethnocultural 20 programming through CBC. I'm an insomniac and when I 21 switch on CBC at four o'clock in the morning, what I 22 hear is news from Europe. It's marvellous, but then I 23 hear the same stuff at seven o'clock then I hear the 24 same stuff at eight o'clock when I'm reading my paper, 25 I read it in the newspaper. There is no coverage from StenoTran 164 1 Asia. There's no coverage from the Pacific. This may 2 surprise you that CBC did not carry recently a 3 devastating flood in Fiji. They did not carry it. 4 Why? I do not know, maybe because of the geographical 5 division, it is not in the interest of Canadian's 6 government to be doing that, but whatever it may be. 7 Now then, there are close to 50,000 Fijians living in 8 here. We are all worried about our relatives back 9 home, so what do we do? We phone. I should not be 10 phoning, I should not be allowed to incur costs because 11 I'm paying -- I'm paying taxes from which CBC is funded 12 and CBC is not doing their job. 13 676 Talking about the other -- the other 14 issue is this, that -- that CBC FM, and I'm a great 15 listener of that particular program with Joergen 16 Goeth (ph) and the other lady that skips -- her name, I 17 escape at this time. It's a great program, you know, 18 wonderful western music. But never there is ever a 19 mention of the great Japanese flute music, Shakuhatchi. 20 There is never, ever explanation of the raagas, how 21 raagas are set up during the day and how raagas 22 original. There is no information, so what is really 23 happening in here? The barriers which could be broken 24 down is not breaking down, but if it was something 25 negative, if there was a fight in an "X" place, that StenoTran 165 1 will -- that will be run every hour until the following 2 day, it will not be dropped. 3 677 The culture where I come from happens 4 to be an Indian culture and my culture is not a 5 Bollywood culture. My culture -- the programming that 6 are being done, you know, it is better programming on 7 -- I hate to say this, but on channel, on the American 8 channels on cultural issues, channel -- the one across 9 here in Seattle. Wonderful programming, you can get a 10 lot of cultural stuff in there. We are failing. What 11 are we doing? I really do not understand. 12 678 The other issue that I would like to 13 raise is also that recently I had to spend $90 buying a 14 sub-carrier receiver, which I think is not good. It is 15 horrible state of affairs if I have to go if I want to 16 listen to a program that I have to go and spend $90 to 17 buy this particular sub-receiver. Why doesn't CRTC 18 make the FM channels available to the multicultural 19 groups. 20 679 You must understand this, that all 21 multicultural groups cannot throw money on that -- and 22 go and buy existing licenses, because a Fijian 23 community is not wealthy as other communities, late 24 arrival or early arrival, it does not matter. We 25 cannot go and buy a radio station. So therefore, I am StenoTran 166 1 asking that you do consider very seriously the -- the 2 FM licenses. 3 680 The other thing that really upsets me 4 also is this, that recently in -- on the sub -- on 5 sub-carriers lines, that the information is being fed 6 from Surrey, it goes to the United States and then it 7 comes back to Canada. And what is happening in there 8 that there is a lot of animosity because of the 9 politics involved which I do not want to get into at 10 this time, and there is no control. You know, no 11 reports can be made to CRTC or I don't even know the 12 American's have a similar organization whereby that 13 they can look at and call people for explanation. 14 681 It's a ridiculous situation. You 15 know, and that the Sikh community that tells me that it 16 is not acceptable to them. 17 682 If you just bear a second, I just 18 want to go through my notes in here. 19 683 At this time, I think I wish to thank 20 you for listening to me, and I would like to conclude 21 my remarks at this stage. Thank you. 22 684 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 23 Prasad, very much. I don't have any questions. 24 685 Commissioner Cardozo has a question. 25 686 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I just have a StenoTran 167 1 couple of comments to make, no questions. 2 687 Just first, to Ms Didas. I see 3 you're about to leave. I just wanted to say to you, 4 thank you very much for being here. It's not often 5 that we have young people come to our hearings and we 6 had some youth groups here yesterday, and I really want 7 to thank you for taking the time to be here. 8 688 MS DIDAS: Okay. No problem. Good 9 night. 10 689 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And Mr. 11 Prasad, I just wanted to point out that we have a -- 12 the renewal of the CBC licence will be coming up later 13 on this year and there are hearings, consultations, 14 similar to this taking place in March. I believe it's 15 March the 16th here in Vancouver, but if you talk to 16 the person at the desk, she can give you the details. 17 690 And I mention that, because we look 18 at each issue separately, so the comments you have on 19 CBC, whatever comments anybody might have, are best 20 made during that hearing, then they get considered 21 within that context. 22 691 Thanks. Thanks, Commissioner. 23 692 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 24 693 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter is 25 Rossana Ascencio. Go ahead. StenoTran 168 1 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 2 694 MS ASCENCIO: Can you hear me there? 3 695 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 4 696 MS ASCENCIO: Yeah. 5 697 Good afternoon everyone. First of 6 all, I want to say that it's a great honour for me to 7 be here tonight, well today, taking part in something 8 that I know will be decisive in the future of ethnic 9 broadcasting policies. 10 698 My name is Rossana Ascencio and I am 11 the co-producer and host of Nosotros Television. 12 Nosotros Television, it's a local community magazine 13 produced in Spanish, 100 percent locally here in 14 Vancouver. And it broadcasts weekly on the Rogers 15 Multicultural Channel. 16 699 Unfortunately Miguel Figueroa, our 17 senior producer and director was unable to be here 18 tonight, but I speak for both of us, when I say that we 19 believe that this is a great opportunity for us to 20 express our needs as local producers. 21 700 As I said before Nosotros Television, 22 it's a local magazine and was created a year and a half 23 ago, precisely because of the need existing of having a 24 space that will represent the local community that will 25 bring us information of what's happening around our StenoTran 169 1 city, around our community, information on the issues 2 that affect our daily life here in Vancouver. And also 3 because of the fact that we believe it is important for 4 us to keep our language alive, not only culturally but 5 also for future generations of immigrants and also to 6 have a space for the new immigrants to come -- that 7 come to our city to feel related to something when they 8 arrive in Vancouver. 9 701 Nosotros Television is, as I said, 10 broadcasted on the Rogers Multicultural Channel and we 11 are thankful for this space, because we believe that if 12 it wasn't for spaces like this one, we wouldn't be able 13 to reach into our community and this is why we think 14 that this is the moment to give a change and to review 15 what's been done until now. 16 1630 17 702 As I said, we are thankful for this 18 space, but we believe that we have many limitations as 19 local producers. As local producers, we have an 20 interest in promoting our local arts, local sports, 21 local events, local issues, but we have a huge 22 limitation, and that is the monetary one. As you know, 23 there are many limitations for sponsorship in a 24 community channel, as the multicultural channel is. 25 And this not only limits our budget, but also the way StenoTran 170 1 that we can reach into our community. 2 703 So basically, as an answer to the 3 first question that you presented, I believe that right 4 now, or we believe right now as producers, that the 5 system just reaches the community to a certain extent 6 and serving the multicultural community to a certain 7 extent. There are things that have to be modified. 8 704 And, as a second point, I think it 9 links to the same thing, there are things that have to 10 be addressed and changes that have to be done in order 11 for local producers who feel the need to reach into 12 their communities to have access, not only to funds, 13 but to bigger sponsorship and to larger budgets to 14 produce our programs and have a way to reaching into 15 our community. 16 705 And as an answer to the third 17 question, I believe that the services, the changes and 18 the cultural services, are definitely a priority, 19 rather than foreign services. When we have the 20 opportunity to present this program for the Rogers 21 Multicultural Channel, it was precisely because until 22 that time, a year and a half ago, well, actually two 23 years ago, there were only programs that were imported, 24 foreign programs from Latin America, that were serving 25 only to a certain extent our community. Programs that, StenoTran 171 1 in fact, related our people to what was happening in 2 the homelands, which, as you know, Latin America's 3 composed of -- by more than 20 countries. So we are 4 serving itself a very large and diverse community. 5 706 So until that time, the programs, the 6 foreign programming were only serving our community to 7 a certain extent. This is why we started producing 8 this local program, this local magazine. And until 9 now, we are happy to say that we have reached into our 10 community and we are very aware of the needs that the 11 Latin American community and the Spanish-speaking 12 community at large has. But once again, we are limited 13 by this -- we are limited by the current policies and 14 by the current ways that our programs can be sponsored. 15 707 The Rogers Multicultural Channel is 16 making huge efforts for us to be a more viewer-friendly 17 channel. We face this reality day by day. When we 18 have to apply for media accreditation, something that 19 we faced a couple of days ago, for the Grizzlies, we 20 are currently supporting and we are very, very proud to 21 know that there are two Latin American players in the 22 Grizzlies. So we went there and we applied for media 23 accreditation and we were not treated as mainstream 24 media. We were considered, "Oh, you're local community 25 programming. Oh, you're local producers. You're only StenoTran 172 1 community programmers". They don't take us seriously. 2 Only because of the fact that they say local community 3 programming and this is limiting us. This is not 4 allowing our community to have a more serious 5 presentation, a more serious representation in the 6 media. 7 708 And for this, I only want to conclude 8 my presentation saying that the changes that need to be 9 addressed from our view are the facts of the policies 10 and the way our programs can be sponsored and the fact 11 that, yes, in fact, for private broadcasters, there's a 12 challenge for them to open their spaces, also, for 13 ethnocultural programming. 14 709 This is it. 15 710 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 16 Ascencio. I would also -- thank you very much for your 17 presentation. 18 711 I'd like to remind you that you have 19 until the 4th of March to make any further submissions. 20 So if you have any specific recommendations with regard 21 to these areas you're concerned about, we would welcome 22 hearing from you on that. 23 712 MS ASCENCIO: Thank you. And I would 24 just like to add, and in fact, my presentation has to 25 be this short, because I have to run back to our studio StenoTran 173 1 to keep doing our program for Thursday. 2 713 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, thank you 3 very much for making the time to come and talk to us 4 today. 5 714 MS ASCENCIO: Thank you for the 6 opportunity, once again. 7 715 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter is 8 Eduardo Aragon. 9 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 10 716 MR. ARAGON: Good evening. I'm here 11 representing the Latin American Community Council. 12 717 It is a great honour and pleasure for 13 me to be here representing a -- we represent a network 14 of services for the Latin American community. As such, 15 we deal with all the current issues that are affecting 16 Latin Americans in the Lower Mainland, and also have 17 some contacts with workers in other areas of the 18 province and other areas of the country. 19 718 This gives us a very intimate insight 20 into what is happening to Latin Americans in Vancouver, 21 in the province and abroad in Canada and further out 22 into other countries. 23 719 We have noticed that ethnic 24 programming is extremely limited. If you are a working 25 person, you have to miss the daily programming that StenoTran 174 1 occurs in working hours. Several other people do not 2 have regular nine-to-five jobs, so unfortunately 3 Nosotros cannot be seen by many people because they 4 have to work. And the spaces are very limited and the 5 channels that actually broadcast in Spanish are 6 absolutely limited. 7 720 If we take a look at the current 8 demographics in Canada, we realize that people of Latin 9 American descent or Spanish-speaking, account for the 10 fourth place in all immigrants to Canada. In B.C., 11 this number is a lot smaller, we only account for 12 18,000 individuals. 13 721 But this is not true representation 14 of who we are. We believe that many people do not 15 express in Statistics Canada that they come from a 16 different background or that they speak a different 17 language at home. And statistics are a little 18 truncated because of the fact that if I marry a 19 Japanese woman, the language spoken at home is not 20 going to be Japanese or Spanish, it's going to be 21 English or French. Therefore, the data that is 22 collected by Statistics Canada is not reflective of the 23 community that the CRTC is intended to serve. 24 722 I believe that by negating the very 25 nature of who we are by prohibiting any reference to StenoTran 175 1 ethnic origin in some of the surveys, we are not being 2 true to who we are. 3 723 Having said this, I would agree with 4 Ms Ascencio when she says that sponsorship has a lot 5 to do with the variety of programming. If the sponsors 6 are not supporting the ethnic language programming, 7 it's probably because they do not feel that they will 8 be presented in the most advantageous way in the ethnic 9 programming. Therefore, if Latin Americans amount to 10 fourth in terms of all ethnic backgrounds in Canada, 11 that market is being lost to your English or French 12 counterparts. 13 724 There are many people that do not 14 watch the regular news or the regular programming 15 because they do not understand the language in which it 16 is provided. Elderly people, newcomers to Canada, 17 young children who do not speak the language because 18 they recently immigrated or because the language at 19 home is not English or French, are being prevented or 20 deprived of programming in their own language. 21 725 Other than that, I would like to say 22 that the four or six or eight hours slot in a week of 23 ethnic programming by any language, in particular, 24 would not address the diverse needs of the whole 25 community. You would probably have a soap opera in StenoTran 176 1 Spanish and that would certainly address the needs of a 2 limited number of viewers, but certainly it would not 3 address the needs of young, the needs of older people, 4 the needs of working people. Therefore, the 5 programming is very limited and in fact, people have to 6 go to the mainstream media for anything else because, 7 as I said before, the sponsors are not there to support 8 a wide variety of programming and there are many 9 restrictions for the ethnic language programs to 10 approach the sponsors and I believe that should be 11 changed. And the way that they -- promote the sponsors 12 should be consistent with the way sponsors are promoted 13 in Spanish-speaking countries, for instance, or 14 Chinese-speaking countries. 15 726 You see, the limitations imposed on 16 the ethnic programmers are such that they have to 17 promote the sponsor the English way, and that doesn't 18 work for the ethnic communities. Sponsors have to be 19 promoted according to the language and culture where 20 the programming is offered. 21 727 It's been cited that there is very 22 few frequencies available for, you know, ethnic 23 programming to be expanded. However, you know, if you 24 think of digitalization, then you're thinking many more 25 opportunities for many more things to happen, even StenoTran 177 1 single language channels that would be -- if we're 2 talking Vancouver, there could be a production in 3 Vancouver to contribute to a single-language network. 4 728 If Latin Americans are the fourth in 5 terms of all ethnic backgrounds in all of Canada and 6 yet not so big in Vancouver, if local programming could 7 be added to a Spanish-speaking network, for instance, 8 that would be very advantageous because it would 9 promote local interest in Vancouver, but also in the 10 Maritimes, it would promote local interest in Toronto, 11 but also in Québec and the Yukon, because it would be a 12 network that would broadcast and that would give the 13 diversity of programming to all the viewers' needs. 14 729 And the same is true for any other 15 language that you can think of. The sponsors would 16 feel more encouraged to contribute or to be announced 17 in a network, rather than just Vancouver or just 18 Richmond. The CRTC encompasses all of Canada and if 19 the sponsors know that they are advertising in a 20 network, at 4:39 p.m. in Vancouver, but at the same 21 time at 7:39 in Toronto, they would be a lot more 22 willing to support any endeavour that would create 23 local programming. Not imported programming from other 24 countries or some things that had been made in Spain or 25 Chile or Mexico, but local, Canadian-born, Spanish StenoTran 178 1 programming. 2 730 And we are all Canadian-born or first 3 generation Canadians who have no access to our ancestry 4 or our language or any of that because of regulations 5 that were enacted in 1985. The population demographics 6 have changed quite dramatically, and I think that the 7 CRTC should make a bigger effort to reflect the reality 8 of, not just today, but 10 or 20 years from now. We 9 have to think about the future -- in terms of the 10 future and not in terms of 20 years ago, which doesn't 11 help our viewers, it doesn't help our communities. 12 731 The classification of the programming 13 in Type A, Type B, Type C, Type D, Type E, it's a 14 little complex and it should have to be re-evaluated. 15 And I know for a fact that programming of Type C, for 16 instance, is not very big on the existing ethnocultural 17 channels or any of the networks, is because it's 18 probably not promoted properly. If you talk about 19 Canadian history in terms of black immigrants, that 20 would certainly attract them. Even if it's in English, 21 because it's about who they are and it would view them 22 as truly participants in this society. 23 732 If you speak of -- just look around 24 you, Alma Street, Blanca bus, Juan de Fuca Street, in 25 so many of the names, that speaks of our Spanish StenoTran 179 1 heritage, but is not being scratched in current 2 programming of the day. I challenge the CRTC to make 3 it known that Canada was not built by two guys, one 4 from England and another one from France; Canada was 5 built by immigrants, by me and by all of you and it's 6 in the process of being built. We haven't gotten to 7 the finish yet, we're just building the second story 8 here of a larger building. 9 733 So I challenge the CRTC to reflect 10 who we are in terms of programming, in terms of 11 languages spoken and in terms of our history. 12 734 And I think that's all I have to say. 13 Thank you very much. 14 735 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much 15 Mr. Aragon. I don't have any questions, but I believe 16 Commissioner Cardozo does. 17 736 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, 18 Commissioner Grauer. 19 737 I just wanted to ask you, you were 20 talking about your dream, perhaps, of a network of 21 Spanish speaking or Latin American radio stations 22 across the country at some point in the future when 23 there can be digital capacity across the country. 24 738 I just wanted to get a sense from you 25 whether you think then, that there could be -- if such StenoTran 180 1 a thing could be licensed, that there would be adequate 2 programming made in Canada or do you think there would 3 have to be some imported and do you think that there is 4 an adequate economic base on which to make it 5 economically viable? 6 739 And I'm not anticipating a 7 carved-in-stone answer, because I understand where your 8 thinking is on this, but I just wanted to get a sense 9 of that from you. 10 740 MR. ARAGON: First of all, the 11 answer's a little bit of a dream, but then reality, 12 sir, is made of dreams. If we don't have dreams, we 13 don't have realities, we don't do anything. 14 741 I believe that it is possible, at 15 this particular moment, it is possible to do some of 16 the things I said. If we take CBC to task, or any of 17 the existing channels to task and speak of the history 18 of the people that make the -- the make up of Canadian 19 society, you will find that there is a market for them, 20 there's all of us. Twenty percent of the immigrants 21 that come to Canada, actually make B.C. their new home. 22 So there is a market for those people to know that they 23 are not newcomers, that their ancestors are founding 24 mothers and fathers of Canada, as well. 25 742 Networking, well Rogers is vigorously StenoTran 181 1 promoting digitalization and they are saying that by 2 the next Millennium, early in the next Millennium, we 3 will have access to hundreds of channels. And are we 4 then thinking the CRTC will then start to look at it? 5 Or now is time to look at these things, because the 6 policy here says 1985. That's a long time ago. I've 7 been here in this country for two years then. And now 8 is time to think of the future in terms of how can we 9 expand the programming, the markets and truly there are 10 main contributors to the existing networks, Molson 11 Canadian, BC Tel, et cetera, et cetera, who would be 12 very willing at advertise in other programs. 13 743 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks very 14 much. Thanks Madame Chair. 15 744 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 16 745 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter is 17 Lubna Ekramoddoulla. 18 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 19 746 MS EKRAMODDOULLA: My name is Lubna 20 Ekramoddoulla. I'm here to express my personal views 21 which addresses the CRTC's Ethnic Broadcasting Policy. 22 747 I have what is called an ethnic 23 background and so the CRTC's policy has a direct impact 24 on me now and in the future. I also have a degree in 25 communications and ethnic programming or lack thereof StenoTran 182 1 and it's effects on ethnic communities as a social 2 issue in which I have an interest. 3 748 My ethnic background is 4 Bangladeshi/Bengali, which would be categorized broadly 5 as South Asian. My parents are from Bangladesh, but I 6 was born and raised in Canada, specifically Winnipeg, 7 Victoria and Vancouver. 8 749 My childhood was spent mostly with 9 Bengali and non-Bengali children, but when I became an 10 adolescent, I was faced with many problems relevant to 11 my culture. I was constantly challenged with balancing 12 my traditional Bengali culture, quote/unquote "my 13 parent's culture" and mainstream western culture or 14 Canadian culture. 15 750 Did I adhere to the Bengali social 16 roles or customs of my parents or did I act and appear 17 like my Canadian friends? This question reoccurred 18 throughout my adolescence. I was in constant conflict 19 between Bengali traditions and lifestyle choices of 20 people who were born and raised in Canada. I was 21 always in conflict trying to resolve this issue which 22 subsequently led me to almost reject my ethnic 23 background. 24 751 But in the last couple of years, I 25 have come to realize that I don't have to make a choice StenoTran 183 1 between the two cultures. I can integrate my Bengali 2 traditions into my mainstream Canadian lifestyle. But 3 it was not easy for me to come to this conclusion. I 4 made this decision when I realized that my new Bengali 5 friends in Eastern Canada had done so. I saw that it 6 was possible to maintain ethnic traditions while living 7 in Canada and being a Canadian. 8 752 In retrospect, I also realized that 9 media, specifically television, had and still does have 10 an extremely strong influence on how I perceived and 11 dealt with this cultural conflict I experienced. 12 753 I fully admit that I watched a lot of 13 television, perhaps even too much. Anything I watched 14 had an effect on me. Unfortunately, I cannot remember 15 a single program that dealt with cultural conflict 16 between an adolescence generation and his or her 17 parents' generation or with ethnic youth in general or 18 had ethnically diverse characters. There is not much 19 that reflected me or my situation. 20 754 I'm in my early twenties now and I 21 still find the need to watch programs that relate to me 22 and my culture. My realization that I can integrate 23 Bengali traditions with Canadian choices does not 24 exempt me from being part of a South Asian ethnic 25 multicultural audience with a need. StenoTran 184 1 755 Currently, there is some South Asian 2 programming available, however, it is only on a 3 Specialty channel and airs at unreasonable times of the 4 day. For example, in the morning or early afternoon 5 when I'm at work or school or at midnight when I'm 6 sleeping. The programming I have seen is more of the 7 type of local current events, rather than dramas, for 8 example, which deal with real issues played out in 9 realistic situations. As well, there is no third 10 language programming in Bengali within that South Asian 11 content. 12 756 And while you may infer what my 13 anecdotes are attempting to portray, I will be explicit 14 in my recommendations regarding ethnic programming. 15 757 The Bengali and general South Asian 16 communities, certainly like other ethnic communities in 17 Vancouver and the Lower Mainland, is in need of a 18 broadcasting outlet with programming that will reflect 19 and address its issues and concerns, especially for its 20 youth and other marginalized groups within that ethnic 21 community. 22 758 The programming needs to be local, 23 about us in Vancouver or the Lower Mainland. It needs 24 to be diverse, representing all groups within the South 25 Asian community, including Bengali, not just Punjabi or StenoTran 185 1 Hindi. It needs to be aired during prime time and 2 other reasonable air times and not be restricted to 3 Specialty channels. 4 759 And in general, national television 5 stations need to increase its Canadian programming, 6 especially that which include positive representations 7 of multi-ethnic and multicultural issues. I want to be 8 able to turn on the TV at any time of the day and see 9 position South Asian stories on any of the national 10 mainstream television stations. 11 760 There has been at least one program 12 that was a good example of what the CRTC's Ethnic 13 Broadcasting Policy was intended to encourage. It 14 aired during prime time on a mainstream television 15 channel, it was developed and produced in Canada and 16 attempted to reflect and address issues and concerns 17 facing many of Canada's aboriginal communities. So why 18 doesn't Canada, specifically Vancouver or the Lower 19 Mainland, have more programs like that that deal with 20 South Asian and other ethnic communities? 21 761 I think the intentions of the CRTC 22 policy on ethnic broadcasting are supportive of 23 multicultural Canadians. However, it's application is 24 ineffective at adequately serving ethnic communities 25 such as South Asian. StenoTran 186 1 762 I hope that my story has helped to 2 make that clear and I hope to see many positive 3 improvements in Canadian ethnic programming in the near 4 future. Thank you. 5 763 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 6 much. I don't have any questions. 7 764 THE SECRETARY: Next, I'd invite 8 Shushma Datt to make her presentation. 9 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 10 765 MS DATT: Members of Commission, 11 ladies and gentlemen. Thank you very much for giving 12 me an opportunity to present my views on the 13 broadcasting policy reflecting Canada's linguistic and 14 cultural diversity. 15 766 My name is Shushma Datt and I am the 16 owner/operator of an SCMO service licensed in 1987 17 called RimJhim. "RimJhim" means "drizzle". Keeping in 18 mind that it drizzles in Vancouver 12 months of the 19 year. 20 --- Laughter / Rires 21 767 MS DATT: The 1985 ethnic policy, I 22 feel, is outdated and needs to be looked into and 23 that's what is being done today and we are very happy 24 about that. 25 768 When I came to Canada 27 years ago StenoTran 187 1 from England, CJVB was licensed as the first ethnic 2 radio station. My stint to CJVB lasted for seven 3 years, during that time, a one hour a day program for 4 the South Asian community seemed just right. It was in 5 1978 that then, CJJC, which was a conventional radio 6 station used the 15 percent ethnic broadcasting clause 7 and brokered time to aspiring South Asian business 8 people. It's announcers charged only $5 per ad, 9 compared to the $25 that CJVB charged. 10 769 CJJC ran 12 hours of South Asian 11 programming every Saturday and CJVB's one hour a day 12 suffered immensely. Unhealthy competition was the 13 death of CJVB's one hour a day South Asian programming. 14 770 It was very evident at that time that 15 the community was growing and it's demands were 16 growing, too. When I left CJVB, it was evident that 17 there has to be a stand-alone service for the South 18 Asian community, but the regulations were and still are 19 very strict for unilingual services and are not 20 encouraged by the Commission. 21 771 I waited for nine years before I 22 could embark on a stand-alone SCMO service for the 23 South Asian community. In those nine years I entered 24 the world of television. My association with Vancouver 25 Cablevision, now Rogers Cable, goes back to 1976. I StenoTran 188 1 will address the ethnic television issue, as well. 2 772 The SCMO service, RimJhim, that was 3 licensed in 1987 is in it's twelfth year. With an 4 impressive staff of 25 broadcasters who have their 5 broadcasting background in England, India, Pakistan and 6 Fiji, RimJhim operates like any other broadcasting 7 undertaking. Although we are not regulated, our 8 station follows all the FM regulations. 9 773 We keep a logger tape, we abide by 10 the Broadcast Act. Our programs enhance the South 11 Asian mosaic. We broadcast in Hindi, Punjabi, Urdu, 12 Gujarati and English. We work as a link between new 13 immigrants and old-timers. We keep our listeners 14 up-to-date with what is happening in their world and in 15 the world outside of their circle. We tie up with 16 India twice a day to provide a 20 minute news coverage 17 and have 15 news bulletins in a day on the hour, every 18 hour in Hindustani and Punjabi, telling the listeners 19 what's happening in their world. 20 774 We respect all religions and present 21 morning programming for Sikhs, Hindus, Christians and 22 Muslim listeners. RimJhim is a non-partisan radio 23 station with its beliefs strictly embedded in the 24 spirit of multiculturalism. We, South Asians, are 25 perhaps the most multi-lingual and multicultural StenoTran 189 1 community of Canada. 2 1700 3 775 Running an SCMO service has its 4 downside, too. We are not recognized as broadcasters. 5 The card book which lists all radio and television 6 stations have repeatedly turned us down for listing. 7 Consequently, no major advertising agencies with their 8 head offices in east know of us. Although SCMO can 9 boast of a very dedicated audience. But because of 10 it's limited service and quality, SCMO in British 11 Columbia faces a problem of a clean signal. But SCMO 12 is a viable proposition for a community that is 13 growing. 14 776 Having said that, we feel it also 15 needs to be regulated. We feel the Commission has to 16 pay a little more attention to what is being said on 17 air through these broadcasts. There is a Surrey-based 18 radio station and many of the presenters have talked 19 about it. Carried by a Canadian broadcaster, the 20 Knowledge Network, beamed to Bellingham and bounced 21 back to Lower Mainland. I wonder if open threats were 22 issued on a regular radio station, or for that matter, 23 on a SCMO service with slogans like "death to all Jews" 24 or "death to all Christians" would it have been 25 tolerated. It cannot be a mere coincidence that a man StenoTran 190 1 who was continuously threatened in that Surrey-based 2 SCMO service was assassinated last year. 3 777 In the world of DTH, it would 4 probably be a viable proposition to give major 5 communities unilingual service. Our radio station is 6 poised to embark on such a platform, as we have 7 outgrown our SCMO waveband. 8 778 Coming to my second love in life, 9 television, broadcasting, I would like to say that 10 Rogers, with its multicultural channel has been serving 11 the Lower Mainland communities adequately. The Rogers 12 multicultural channel is in it's 19th year of broadcast 13 and will be completing its 20th year in October this 14 year. The efforts they have put into serving the needs 15 of the Lower Mainland is commendable. I am of the 16 opinion that it is high time this channel became 17 commercial, period, dot. 18 779 Its strict guidelines make it 19 difficult for the producers to make ends meet. 20 Producers on this channel subsidize their programs with 21 the hope that one fine day it would be deregulated. 22 With Rogers latest change of program policy, it is 23 making it even more difficult to produce local 24 programming. 25 780 For the past 19 years, I have StenoTran 191 1 produced programming on the Rogers multicultural 2 channel and the current format of the station, which is 3 trying to attract non-ethnics to the channel, is 180 4 degree turn, different from the format that the 5 audiences were used to for years. I am of the belief 6 that it's current format is losing its dedicated 7 old-time viewers. I am forced to think if this channel 8 was a commercial ventures, would Rogers still divide 9 the programming block and eliminate programs that 10 command a higher viewership? 11 781 An estimated 10,000 signatures went 12 to Rogers at the cancellation of block programming for 13 the South Asian community. That speaks volumes for 14 that program. 15 782 Currently, there are nine producers 16 vying for the South Asian market share. The rate war 17 has brought not only the quality, but also the 18 viewership down. It is unheard of in any broadcasting 19 undertaking that a service provider would encourage 20 in-house rivalry by having more than one producer per 21 language. I understand even CFMT has one producer per 22 language. 23 783 Your question regarding a national 24 ethnic television network, its need and viability needs 25 to be looked into carefully. We feel that there should StenoTran 192 1 be a stand-alone unilingual ethnic services for those 2 languages that can sustain themselves. For example, 3 the Chinese service has two specialty channels, one for 4 the Chinese language alone and one with 50 percent 5 programming in Chinese. Similarly, a South Asian 6 service would be able to sustain itself, but a 7 multilingual ethnic service for many languages with the 8 broken half an hour, hour slots, is not viable any 9 more. 10 784 Added to that, a national service 11 would not serve the needs of a local community. The 12 owners of such a service would be in it for money and 13 that will probably come from the English language 14 American programs. 15 785 Ethnic concentration in major cities 16 differ from one another. In Vancouver, Chinese and 17 South Asians are the biggest ethnic groups, whereas the 18 currently licensed ethnic station in Toronto has only 19 five hours of programming for the South Asian 20 community. A national ethnic service would be 21 economical for the provider because of the discounted 22 program rates it would be able to acquire with services 23 in Toronto and the rest of Canada. But we feel it 24 might short-change the ethnic communities in the Lower 25 Mainland and other parts of Canada. StenoTran 193 1 786 National ethnic licence must 2 implement and advisory board as noted by presenters 3 yesterday evening, as well. 4 787 With that, I end my presentation. If 5 you have any questions, I would like to answer them. 6 788 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Datt. 7 I don't have any questions, but I have a point of 8 clarification, and I'll also check with staff. 9 789 When we asked about the possibility 10 of a national ethnic network, I believe we were 11 thinking along the lines of something like a CTV which 12 would link -- or multilingual or ethnic stations in 13 various communities with some common programming and 14 some shared programming. Is that... 15 790 MR. JONES: The question that's in 16 the Public Notice is open-ended. So there are 17 obviously a variety of models and I would take 18 Commissioner Grauer's question to be: If one were to 19 imagine a model with independent affiliates providing 20 locally relevant programming, would your concerns be 21 the ones that you've raised? Is that... 22 791 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And more to 23 -- I guess in my own way, I think of it as a specialty 24 service if it's one national service beaming the same 25 thing to everybody, as opposed to a network being a StenoTran 194 1 group of independents that might share some 2 programming. 3 792 MS DATT: Well, in that case, a 4 service which would have networks throughout the 5 country -- 6 793 THE CHAIRPERSON: Or stations. 7 794 MS DATT: Or stations would be much 8 better. I think then the local component can be 9 preserved and it would also enhance the national 10 network. I'm not opposed to that. That is 11 progression. 12 795 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 13 much. Commissioner Cardozo has a question. 14 796 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Maybe first I 15 can just add to the timing of this. What we said about 16 a year ago, we had a hearing on whether there should be 17 additional national networks and it came out of Global 18 wanting to be a national network. And one of the 19 presentations we had was from Rogers Broadcasting, who 20 raised the issue of a multicultural national network. 21 We also had a request for a national aboriginal network 22 and we heard that application a couple of months ago, 23 we haven't had a decision on that yet. 24 797 But with regards to the multicultural 25 network, what we said was after this process which StenoTran 195 1 we're going through right now, we would at that point 2 be ready to entertain applications and I think we'll 3 then, out of what people have to say, such as what 4 you're saying right now, those are the kinds of things 5 that will go into giving us some kind of framework as 6 to which direction we think we should go or maybe we 7 won't be specific. 8 798 But in terms of chronology, once we 9 finish with this process, we'll then be looking at, you 10 know, Rogers or anybody else might come in with such an 11 application. 12 799 I just had a question on the SCMO 13 issue and I just want to understand it a bit better. 14 800 Your service, you're providing an 15 SCMO service through another licensee and in order for 16 people to get your service, they have to have an 17 additional gizmo to get it. Right? 18 801 MS DATT: That's right. 19 802 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And is that 20 one for each radio? 21 803 MS DATT: It is. 22 804 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And is it only 23 radios in houses as opposed to cars? 24 805 MS DATT: Well, because of our -- the 25 way Vancouver is, ups and downs and hills and all that, StenoTran 196 1 it's very difficult to listen to a SCMO in a car. You 2 can in certain areas, but it's usually for the house. 3 806 Some people have it, like the taxi 4 drivers I know, all of them have RimJhim in their 5 taxies and they listen to it, because nighttime is the 6 time that they need to listen to music. 7 807 It is each radio, is a separate unit. 8 As you know -- 9 808 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: It's a 10 separate radio from your regular radio? 11 809 MS DATT: Yes, it is. 12 810 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right. 13 811 MS DATT: Because the SCMO is on 14 kiloHertz frequency, which is very low. So to be able 15 to hear the kiloHertz frequency, it needs to be 16 boosted, so a regular radio does not have kiloHertz 17 frequencies, it has megaHertz. And so SCMO radios 18 separate the kiloHertz frequency from an existing FM 19 station. Like, for example, we are on CJJR, so it 20 separates that frequency, 92 kiloHertz and it enhances 21 it, so that you can hear it on the radio. 22 812 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. And in 23 terms of cost, what is the average cost of such a 24 radio? 25 813 MS DATT: When I first started in StenoTran 197 1 1987, it used to cost us $120 U.S., because there was 2 no organization that was or other company that used to 3 build them here. We went to Western Diversification 4 and proposed to them that we could build them here, but 5 I don't think our presentation was that great. So they 6 threw it out of the window. 7 814 So we had to, for the first four to 8 five years, buy the radios from America, but now, every 9 technologically alert man or woman can sort of make a 10 SCMO radio. It's not that difficult. 11 815 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. And you 12 can attach it to, if you've got a $10,000 sound system 13 in your house, can you attach this system to it? 14 816 MS DATT: Yes. Yes, you can. But 15 with the fear of the warranty on that unit being void, 16 because once you open the unit and you mess around with 17 it, you would be voiding the warranty. 18 817 We have come up with a little unit 19 that rebroadcasts within the house and cannot go beyond 20 40 feet because of the Department of Communication 21 regulations. That has given older people a better 22 chance to sort of listen to the radio in their bedrooms 23 and also in the kitchen or wherever. 24 818 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: All right. 25 Thanks very much. StenoTran 198 1 819 MS DATT: Thank you. 2 820 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, 3 Madame Chair. 4 821 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Datt. 5 822 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter is 6 Charan Gill. 7 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 8 823 MR. GILL: Thank you, Madame Chair. 9 824 I am representing Progressive 10 Intercultural Community Services Society, which is a 11 non-profit society, helps people for job counselling, 12 ESO, resume writing, information referral and helping 13 them to adjust in this community and how to integrate 14 properly in the community. 15 825 So our efforts have been more or less 16 community based on the local issues, which are quite 17 common, like any other citizen, under-employment, 18 unemployment, racism, barriers to employment, all those 19 issues we deal with in a small way. We have about 32 20 staff which is engaged in helping people to cope and 21 adjust in the new environment. 22 826 And in this ethnic media, I frankly 23 see recently the change of tune, more song and dance, 24 more recreational activities than any social affairs or 25 any education, like previously mentioned by various StenoTran 199 1 speakers in terms of parent/child conflict because of 2 the changing values, emerging issues, emerging needs of 3 the young people, seniors who need some place to rest 4 in their later lives. It's nice to have a great 5 families of -- extended families who look after seniors 6 and other people, but there are some who fall into the 7 cracks, need some support. 8 827 So we are engaged in social housing 9 and other activities to prepare ourselves to serve our 10 community better, that they can enjoy a quality of life 11 which all citizens deserve. 12 828 But unfortunately, as is mentioned by 13 Shushma Datt and a few others, there are issues with 14 the ethnic media which are very serious. 15 829 First, anybody can buy a radio 16 station and put any garbage on the airwaves, like 17 sometime they escape because it's coming from the 18 United States, this creates loss of disharmony and 19 disunity in the community, a very poisonous 20 environment, which results in assassinations, beatings 21 and many other things which are not acceptable to us as 22 a community who serve people to cope and adjust in the 23 whole society. It's not helping them. It's taking 24 them back to the old issues back home. 25 830 I don't say that we should not be StenoTran 200 1 listening to home issues, I think it's a great. We 2 must listen to our background because we are related to 3 that, we enjoy that. But not all the time. Not all 4 our energy should go back home in listening to those 5 issues, which nothing we can do over here. 6 831 So my interest would be with the 7 ethnic media that they must designate 20 percent time 8 for social affairs, for people's education, giving them 9 direction, giving them counselling through airwaves, 10 advertising a variety of community programs which exist 11 in the society to help them out should they need help. 12 832 There's issues of substance abuse, 13 drug abuse, wife abuse which should be dealt with on 14 the media issues and discussion, debates, bring 15 educated people to talk about those issues. 16 833 Demographic is increasing, it's time 17 is overdue for the CRTC to come and get input from the 18 communities. The South Asian community, which I mean 19 people originated from the Indian subcontinent, are 20 almost over 300,000, 400,000 around that, in B.C. And 21 visible minority communities are over, almost 19 22 percent in B.C. right now. We rarely see our faces on 23 the mainstream media. We rarely see the positive 24 stories on the mainstream media, very -- we have to 25 work hard to get our word out. But negative stories, StenoTran 201 1 always first news, headlines on the front line on the 2 local Vancouver Sun and Province papers. You can 3 easily see that. 4 834 We don't seem to have any control on 5 that. We seem to be very powerless that the 6 negativities spread out by this mainstream media is 7 allowing people to stereotype us, that we're all like 8 this. They don't see us as individuals, but see as a 9 group of people who are violent, who are criminals, who 10 fight with each other, who may be willing to kill each 11 other. That kind of image is being portrayed, which is 12 horrible. 13 835 If we have ethnic media, whereby we 14 have some control, not the control by some rich folks 15 who can buy the station and put somebody who have no 16 generalistic knowledge, he doesn't even know about ABC 17 of announcements, and I have been an announcer, who 18 cannot speak the language properly, own Punjabi 19 language, forget about English, and spill hatred on the 20 media. And we need to have some control. The CRTC 21 must be very heavily coming down on those stations to 22 really cancel their licenses out because they are 23 really harming the communities. 24 836 And some folks, who would make money 25 out of this hatred, they sell hatred and make money StenoTran 202 1 through ads, and there's too many ads, rather than any 2 good substance for debates and discussions which 3 community can benefit. 4 837 My focus will be how ethnic media -- 5 how you are going to portray or control the media which 6 will be benefitting, making harmonious relationships 7 within the communities and even providing intracultural 8 relationship, knowing because we have 90 to 100 9 different communities here now, we got to know our 10 values and belief systems and respecting each other and 11 getting to understand, which is not done. Very, 12 very -- we had a time that Shushma Datt's TV one time, 13 maybe do community things. And she lost that, I think 14 to song and dance, because they sell, they give some 15 kind of drugs, some kind of recreational activity at 16 home, sitting at home. But it's only short-term, it 17 doesn't go anywhere. 18 838 What happens after that, the life is 19 the same, the reality is there. So they don't touch 20 the life or the reality by providing them with 21 education, about their rights. It takes ten years for 22 people, many, many people, before they get to know they 23 have certain rights in this country. They think -- 24 they compare with the old country, that they have the 25 same rights. Even the wages, when people ask for StenoTran 203 1 wages, agriculture workers, I worked with, and they're 2 told, "Don't speak about the wages, you can be 3 deported", and they believe it. Those issues really, 4 we have to get to them early, not allowing them to wait 5 ten years. 6 839 All immigrants, when we come here in 7 this country, we lose five, seven years. Be fumbling 8 around, we go up and down, we start from bottom ladder 9 and going up again after four or five years. We 10 always, most of us have lost five, seven years of 11 lifetime, education and stuff, because we have to 12 reeducate, restamped by the Canadian educational 13 standards, to compete in the job market, otherwise we 14 won't get jobs. Our doctors, the many people with the 15 foreign credentials are working as janitors, taxi 16 drivers and they're quality people, but they are not 17 allowed to practice, who already have practised 15 to 18 20 years in the old countries. 19 840 We want to raise those issues in the 20 media. In the ethnic media and get people together to 21 say that this is our issue, this issue of 22 under-employment, why be as first immigrant when you 23 come they were well qualified, how come we make so much 24 less money than others? How come you never see any 25 visible minority up in the boards, up level higher up StenoTran 204 1 in the governments, the ADM, Deputy Minister -- you 2 don't see those. 3 841 So those are the -- those are the 4 issues I would like to see media representing us, 5 allowing us by guaranteeing 20 to 25 percent social 6 affairs material, which relates to people's life, right 7 here, there are issues, local issues and some -- so 8 forth. 9 842 And definitely the program quality is 10 deteriorating, because it's not to deliver service to 11 ethnic community is to make a buck. Most of the radio 12 stations, the TVs, their priority is who will -- 13 anybody who will put in the ad, they will have a time 14 for radio station, too. It doesn't matter what they 15 have to say, they can spill garbage there, but they can 16 have a time because they're selling ads to that station 17 and they force them to come on the airwaves and say a 18 few things, which are not -- never, very rarely 19 profitable to the community or helpful to the community 20 at all. 21 843 Accountability. There must be some 22 accountability what they say on the airwaves and 23 there's none. I would say the communities totally 24 falling apart, helpless, getting angry, getting mad. 25 Some lunatic fringe over there listening to these StenoTran 205 1 garbage could kill somebody, has killed somebody, could 2 hurt somebody, could attack some good people who are 3 trying to tell them, give them some direction. But the 4 fanatics may say, "No, no. They're wrong kind of 5 people, so get them". Some lunatic may act on those 6 emotions later on someday, so I'm really afraid of 7 that. Is it happening in the community and it may -- 8 it may continue until you come with a heavy stick. 9 844 And bring Canadian that don't allow 10 ethnic media to be a separate in the corner, allow them 11 to meet the Canadian standards and ethics and respect 12 Charter of Rights of freedoms, freedom of speech, all 13 those kind of things. Bring them up to the poor, not 14 allowing them to slip away and do harm to our 15 communities, to our children of our people in here. 16 845 So my hunch will be that the 17 demographics, especially South Asian, we're the second 18 largest, and other visible minority, does warrant that 19 we have some control on our destiny, some control what 20 we say to the people and we can reach out to people in 21 terms of giving a positive spin to intercultural 22 relationship, giving the multicultural value systems, 23 which we adhere to, which we respect to and all those 24 things. We can convey those messages. We are not 25 given a time, we are not allowed to have a time, StenoTran 206 1 because it costs quite a bit to get a license, all 2 normal people can't get it. They can't run the 3 station. 4 846 Community-based issues should be 5 given one hour or two hours to do the community work. 6 And of course, the CRTC has to be closely regulating 7 and monitoring these issues. There are tapes which are 8 in Punjabi, Chinese or other languages. People say 9 things, they must deposit to CRTC that they can be, 10 because we folks out there cannot monitor them, we 11 don't have the time. We cannot tape each and 12 everything what they say, but we -- if we have that, 13 people tell us that the garbage was said, wrong thing 14 was said, insulting remarks were made to somebody, 15 somebody would -- did very hurtful things to someone. 16 Then, if the tapes are deposited with the CRTC, then 17 they get to the point and say, "Look, you have it. Such 18 and such date, let's get it" and translated and punish 19 those culprits. Otherwise they won't stop it. 20 847 So the overall -- my presentation, I 21 would like to say in terms of demographic, in terms of 22 priority, if you want the human welfare, if you want 23 the immigrant to settle in this country properly and 24 enjoy a quality life, enjoy the life which they deserve 25 and the full citizenship rights, then I would ask you StenoTran 207 1 support ethnic media, which is positive, which is 2 trying to create unity, harmony and trying to direct 3 people to become a part and parcel of this largest 4 community and be a part of -- quality part and be a 5 contributing citizens. Those are the issues at stake 6 now, because people are so angry, they don't feel like 7 working, they are upset, they think they don't have any 8 power. 9 848 So I would suggest to CRTC, give some 10 directions what kind of program and one should have. 11 Not to go their ways and do whatever they want and take 12 their radio station, their personal property and do 13 spill garbage, whatever they want to do. It's really 14 hurtful, it's hurting. 15 849 And the other issues which I want to 16 say in terms of priority, bring to people in their 17 adjustment, settlement issues, the issues of day to 18 day, they face in terms of unemployment, like any other 19 community, how to resolve those issues, how to resolve 20 issues of parents and children's conflict, how we 21 support those families who are in dire need. Those are 22 the issues I would like to see happening and I will 23 like to see CRTC given some kind of directions, a 24 positive direction towards that end. 25 850 But I think the media at this time, StenoTran 208 1 is not serving the ethnic community very well. It's 2 not serving it at all because of lack of control. 3 851 That's all I need to say, Madame 4 Chairperson and all my notes are all over here and 5 there. But -- 6 852 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, you've made 7 your case very eloquently. 8 853 MR. GILL: Thank you. 9 854 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 10 855 MR. GILL: I have the extra letter -- 11 which I didn't want to go into too much, what we do. I 12 have some -- go on more to you. That you can have a 13 look at it, what we stand for, what we do. 14 856 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 15 much. I think we have a copy, do we? 16 857 Madame Secretary...? 17 858 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter 18 this afternoon is Balwant Gill. 19 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 20 859 MR. GILL: Good evening, ladies and 21 gentlemen. 22 860 My name is Balwant Singh Gill, I'm 23 President of Gruman Sikh Temple and I am spokesperson 24 of 35 societies throughout B.C. 25 861 Previous speakers have covered lots StenoTran 209 1 of my points, like Shushma Datt and Charan Paul Gill. 2 I will say little about what they already have covered, 3 but I had some other points to raise. 4 862 Like, ethnic programming. We do not 5 get proper and enough time for the ethnic broadcasting. 6 Our time is given when the audience is away, they're 7 working or they're in schools or colleges, universities 8 or they're sleeping. 9 863 And I have a concern about side band 10 broadcasters. A side band broadcasters have no 11 principles and they do not follow any regulations. 12 Side band broadcasters have created more problems for 13 the community. They openly contravene guidelines and 14 rules. People are insighted and poisonous propaganda, 15 tries to promote violence in the community. 16 864 People are sick and tired of the 17 violence -- talks, the community has complained many 18 times in writing to the CRTC, et cetera, have no -- 19 paid any attention to our address. Some of them, the 20 side band broadcasters, they're operating in their 21 basements without any license, without paying any dues, 22 they're breaking all the rules and regulations. 23 They're promoting hatred against certain people, 24 individuals, certain groups, certain organizations, 25 even life threats to their families, openly, publicly, StenoTran 210 1 every single night, five hours a day. And we have 2 written to the CRTC so many times in the last couple of 3 years. Until now, no action has been taken. 4 865 I think they are waiting until 5 somebody gets killed and some of their family member 6 get killed, then they will take action against those 7 people who are abusing the system. 8 866 So you are not doing proper job and 9 you not seem to be working for the peace-loving ethnic 10 community. 11 867 TV and radio control is in the hands 12 of the non-ethnic, BCTV, your TV, Global TV, et cetera, 13 they have no ethnic people in their management and 14 administrative decision-making positions. 15 Multicultural programs are just a name. Indo-Canadian 16 community had been fragmented by the subtle tactics of 17 Roger and CRTC. We pay the taxes and contribute in the 18 society and we do not get what non-ethnics get. It 19 seems you have made a -- created ethnic and non-ethnic 20 division. 21 868 So we need more ethnic programming, 22 more air time and more people should be employed in the 23 management of the radio and television stations. 24 869 I will say -- I will go a little 25 further more to Roger multicultural TV programs. StenoTran 211 1 There's very little programs to the religious knowledge 2 to be through our -- religious temples, churches, to 3 our kids. They are going away from our temples, our 4 churches. So there's no time at all for these 5 religious thing to be broadcast for our children. 6 870 So one more thing I will say again 7 about the side band broadcasters, they should be 8 controlled by the CRTC and they should be policing by 9 the CRTC thoroughly. We have hundreds of hundreds tape 10 and we'll provide it to the authorities, those tapes, 11 translated into English and written, but no action has 12 been taken since the last two years. 13 871 So I'm strongly asking from the CRTC 14 to look into those issues, especially from the side 15 band broadcasters. 16 872 Thank you. 17 873 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 18 much, Mr. Gill. You, too, have made your case very 19 eloquently. We've heard your concerns and are taking 20 them into consideration. 21 874 Thank you. 22 875 MR. GILL: Thank you. 23 876 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter 24 this afternoon is Paul Gill. 25 1730 StenoTran 212 1 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 2 877 MR. GILL: Thank you. 3 878 First of all I want to thank the 4 Commission for giving me the time to present something. 5 I had not applied for it, and it was just a spur of the 6 moment, I had just accompanied Mr. Gill to these 7 hearings and it's given me an opportunity to convey to 8 you what had been simmering inside me over the last 9 year from a personal experience. And that is the 10 question of the side band radios, whereby they are not 11 regulated by anybody and it is a personal experience. 12 I'll take a minute to relate it. 13 879 It happened to be unfortunately make 14 a call to this talk-show host in Surrey running on 15 upnots and Geet (ph) radio station which is -- through 16 the Knowledge Network as broadcast out of Bellingham 17 and happened to disagree with his point of view. Upon 18 which he started criticizing me personally, after I had 19 made the call and then started looking at, saying this 20 person should come to the radio station and I said, 21 "Okay. Well, I --" I went, he was not there he 22 broadcast out of his basement. I called from the 23 station and said, "Well, you were asking, saying I 24 should show up. Here I am, you're not here". He said 25 "Well, call me later" I said, "Well, that's enough." StenoTran 213 1 880 I left it there. This individual 2 started asking on the air, saying wherever I am, I 3 should be calling him and I -- not only he did not only 4 stop there, he called my home and announced on the air, 5 saying, "Well, I've called Mr. Gill's home, he's not 6 home yet and we will try him again". 7 881 And sure enough he called twice again 8 and got me the third time at my home. And this is a 9 talk show host phoning here and saying, "Okay. What do 10 you want to say now?" And after I'd given and said, 11 "You know, I disagree with you. I differ with you, but 12 you shouldn't have called me at home", he stopped, 13 after I had hung up, he stopped any commercials from 14 that program, any advertisements, the time it was 15 taking, and he announced on the air that today we are 16 just going to call and talk and started, you know, from 17 his own group of friends, taking those calls, and 18 criticizing what I had said and making things like, you 19 know, people like me are zeros and not to worry about 20 this, that these are people that wear red underwear and 21 you know, those tapes are there. Maybe we can 22 translate them and give it to you. 23 882 So one of the recommendations I want 24 is that these talk show hosts that are there, that 25 their tapes be deposited and they should also to the StenoTran 214 1 CRTC submit an English translation of their programming 2 so that, you know, you can monitor them, what kind of 3 garbage these people are doing and their -- can be 4 regulated. And certainly, there should be ethical 5 standards set up that should, the CRTC should have an 6 ethical commission whereby it should set up, for the 7 programmers, that, you know, that they should have 8 ethical screens set up by the CRTC so that these radio 9 stations or others that meet those ethical screens. 10 883 Having aired my beef now, to answer 11 the questions that you have put before -- the question 12 that you have put forward and the answers that you're 13 looking for, yes, I personally feel there should be a 14 national network which should carry on ethnic 15 programming. There is a need for it, there is not 16 adequate ethnic programming at the moment. Whatever 17 there is, the competition is so much among it that 18 the -- people are trying to buy it on BCTV or, you know 19 any -- has gone up so high that they can hardly produce 20 the quality of programming that need to be there. 21 884 Those ethnic programs need to look 22 at, you know, the medical knowledge or the issues of 23 youth, the issues of seniors. 24 --- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques 25 885 MR. GILL: I can't see now. StenoTran 215 1 886 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just wait until 2 they flip the switch. 3 887 MR. GILL: It's just like - this is 4 an indication -- 5 888 THE CHAIRPERSON: We won't count this 6 as part of your time. 7 889 MR. GILL: This is how, you know, the 8 ethnic media has been operating in the dark, had been 9 kept in the dark. This instance can -- 10 --- Laughter / Rires 11 890 MR. GILL: And you know, certainly 12 the current affairs, part of it, what is going on in 13 Canada, what is happening? And I think strongly that 14 CBC or others or the channel that carries the coverage 15 of the House of Commons, it should be broadcast in more 16 than, you know, just the French and the English 17 language, so that, you know, seniors and others can 18 understand what is happening on a daily basis, what are 19 the Parliamentarians doing and they can understand the 20 issues that, you know, are being listened to in Canada. 21 891 The issues of, you know, what is the 22 big deal about Quebec. I mean, you know, you try to 23 explain it to a 70-year old man from India who doesn't 24 know and he doesn't understand what is, you know, what 25 is the issue of, you know, why they are asking for a StenoTran 216 1 vote, you know. What is Lucien Bouchard saying? What 2 is, you know, Jean Chretien's position on that? And 3 certainly that would help it and you know, those 4 current affairs, it will educate to us from coast to 5 coast and all ethnic groups about, what is Canada about 6 and you know, where we are going with it. 7 892 And Mr. Gill raised the issue of, you 8 know, more ethnic people in today's -- and I'd 9 certainly think that, you know, there should be. One 10 of the issues, when you review their licenses and 11 reissue them, the job equity on these networks should 12 be one of the screens or one of the criteria you should 13 be looking at how much job equity these radio stations 14 or television stations have been promoting into their 15 upper echelons, because if you have people in senior 16 management positions or broadcasting ethnic people from 17 various -- they will have some impact on the policies 18 and the guidelines of those stations. 19 893 And it should not only there, as for 20 it going into, you know, but should there be a priority 21 on the government of Canadian ethnoculture programs, 22 yes, definitely. We shouldn't be importing all of it. 23 It has to be developed because the issues that are 24 raised by the ethnic youth that was referred here 25 earlier, in the hearings, the have to be aired, they StenoTran 217 1 have to be conveyed. The programs have to be that the 2 youth here and the -- and their parents and 3 grandparents are entrusted at the same time and they 4 can -- all willing to watch those programs, not that 5 the youth are willing to watch a different program and 6 the seniors want a different one. That you have to be. 7 894 And what do you know, the world 8 becoming a global village and the global trade it 9 tides, are you -- to have to understand the programs 10 and the needs in those countries where we -- Canada is 11 trading, so it helps when these people, the youth go 12 out and to do trade in those countries, to promote 13 Canada and Canadian products, they have a better 14 understanding of the cultures of those and we do not 15 make mistakes. Like one of the trade missions into 16 China where the report that such and such placed and 17 has his children studying in Canada, which is not 18 viewed as very good in China. 19 895 So, you know, those issues that, you 20 know, when people are going out here, they're not being 21 briefed what they have a genuine understanding of those 22 cultures, so trade is done there. And certainly that 23 network would help it and thereby also create to a 24 vibrant economy of Canada whereby you're promoting 25 these and certainly as far as, you know, the StenoTran 218 1 commercialization or the question was asked earlier 2 that will they for it? Right now, in that ethnic 3 newspapers and others, there are BCTV or others, 4 they're advertising in there. They'll advertise it. 5 They see their base, where there is that, you know, 6 what -- who are their consumers? Ethnic people are the 7 consumers. 8 896 If you take the Lower Mainland, I 9 think it's a good 30 to 40 percent. You could qualify 10 people into one ethnic group other than, you know, the 11 two main major groups, you could qualify into those 12 areas. So certainly that has to be looked at and not 13 taking any more time. I think you should look at that. 14 897 But once again, I want to convey very 15 strongly that these side band radios should be 16 regulated, they should have some ethics. There should 17 be ethical screens put on those so that people are not 18 frustrated and they do not, you know, agonize over it. 19 I mean, you know, and boil inside and take some drastic 20 actions. 21 898 Thank you very much. 22 899 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 23 much. 24 900 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter 25 this evening is Darshan Aujla. StenoTran 219 1 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 2 901 MR. AUJLA: Good evening, ladies and 3 gentlemen. I'm grateful to CRTC and all of you for 4 listening to me. 5 902 First of all, I'll introduce myself. 6 My name, she has already stated. I'm Aujla Darshan 7 Singh. 8 903 I have served over 37 years with 9 distinction in India, Indian army, retired as a senior 10 officer, that is in the rank of Brigadier General. I 11 was director of my own Corps, which was Army Physical 12 Corps. 13 904 I come into this country in nineties, 14 early nineties -- 1990 and since then I've been doing a 15 lot of research works. 16 905 One of the earlier speakers, has 17 stated that it's difficult to get a job over here. And 18 I will state, in 1960s when this country was short of 19 education teachers, the teachers from India were 20 imported and they were getting the job in the next day. 21 And their education and everything was accepted in this 22 country. And today, a person may come highly educated, 23 a doctor, anybody, that education is not accepted 24 there -- here, sorry. So, that is one point. 25 906 Which can go through people through StenoTran 220 1 radio, TV, which is a good medium of communication. 2 And TV is doing good service. But at the same time, 3 let us say today you are asking views of people, but if 4 this team thinks that whatever we are saying is going 5 to be a personal thing, and you are going to answer as 6 to why this is not done, why that is not done, then it 7 will get bogged down here only. 8 907 What my request is, whatever are 9 suggestions should be taken in the right spirit and 10 implemented as far as possible, because today, one of 11 my earlier colleagues has said, we are coming very 12 close to each other. And the media is serving us, TV 13 and radio is serving us. And if the right type of 14 information is not given to people, that is education 15 or current affairs regarding our own country, that is 16 Canada, or the country from where we have come is not 17 given to people at the right time, quickly, then we 18 could well be deficient of that. 19 908 I'm only going to confirm the facts 20 given to all of us today by earlier speakers. I'm just 21 going to put them in a brief form and state: 22 909 Ethnic groups need a lot of 23 entertainment, education and knowledge about current 24 affairs. And it should be conveyed to them as much as 25 possible. A lot of time should be given to them and it StenoTran 221 1 should be given in such a way that the majority of 2 people can listen to that. They are not at work and 3 they have not gone to sleep. 4 910 For that matter, you have -- no, you 5 have heard Shushma Datt, she's got 20 years experience 6 of radio, TV is going to complete about 12 years as 7 completed, she's got a lot of experience and it is well 8 tried, the unit, which is giving good service to our 9 community. 10 911 But there are other units like 11 sub-carriers who are promoting violence in our 12 community, hatred, wrong propaganda, to meet their own 13 ends. They should be checked. As Paul Gill has just 14 said, there should be proper monitoring of those 15 people. And for that matter, every person who comes on 16 the air or goes onto the TV should give -- should keep 17 a record of what they have announced, and it should be 18 maintained in English or French or English/French, 19 both. Then only we can be saved, otherwise we are in a 20 big problem. 21 912 Then problems like education about 22 other cultures, we're talking about our own culture, 23 that's okay. Within our society, but outside, nobody 24 knows what this turban is. Here comes a small little 25 thing which may explain to all of my people present, StenoTran 222 1 once roaming around in Reno City in U.S.A., somebody 2 was after a colleague of mine and he was saying to ask, 3 "Are you badly hurt?" He said, "Why you said this?" 4 He said, "You've tied a big bandage on your head". 5 Because he didn't know what this turban is. That 6 fellow thought this was a bandage. 7 913 And that is what happened in 1993 in 8 Surrey. People just wanted to get into some area, the 9 other group was saying, "You take off your turbans." 10 These people are saying, "No, we will not take off 11 turbans." This was a lack of education about the other 12 culture. After that, multicultural association was 13 contacted and we had four to five workshops just to 14 explain them, what is our culture, what is your 15 culture. 16 914 Some of the earlier speakers have 17 said about racism. Even until to date, although it is 18 less, people shout at us. Unless we speak, we can 19 convey ourselves in English or something, people say, 20 "This person has no -- with turban and beard, no, he 21 doesn't speak English". They ask you ten times. 22 915 But if, through our media, TV and 23 radio, we continue educating people who are living in 24 this country about the other cultures, then people will 25 be living at peace. And that is our aim. StenoTran 223 1 916 Actually, we're as -- through TV and 2 radio, we entertain people, we also educate them. 3 Educate them about the substance abuse, educate them 4 about the religions, to teach them about other 5 religions, all such things should be done. So for our 6 own culture, Indian sub-countrymen, culture is 7 concerned, I during the last few years, I'm not trying 8 to praise Shushma Datt just because she's sitting here, 9 but I am saying it sincerely that she has done a good 10 service to our community. And it is a pleasure to 11 listen to her program, the radio program which is 24 12 hours working and also the TV. 13 917 But then, we find Rogers digital 14 network is reducing her time. And as stated earlier 15 again, some people who can buy the programs from him, 16 it's time to give more to them. That type of imbalance 17 should be checked. And I would say, we are 18 peace-loving people, and we should be allowed to live 19 like that and the propaganda, giving -- to certain 20 individuals for the sake of certain people to meet 21 their own demands, should be checked. 22 918 With this I'll not take any more 23 time. I will, once again, thank the people sitting 24 around me. I'm very grateful that I have been given 25 time to talk to you in their midst. StenoTran 224 1 919 Thank you so much. 2 920 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 3 much. 4 921 And I think this concludes this 5 panel. What I'd just like to say is, I'd like to thank 6 all of you very much for taking the time to come here 7 today. I know a lot of you have gone to a lot of 8 trouble to share your views with us. 9 922 It's very important to us in terms of 10 our deliberations and considerations and 11 decision-making that we have the views from Canadians 12 across this country and as we're saying more often, 13 most often is that our decisions and our work is as 14 well informed as we are, and you've been very helpful 15 today in increasing our level of understanding of the 16 issues your community is facing. 17 923 Thank you. We'll take a 15 minute 18 break. 19 1750 20 --- Recess / Pause 21 924 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madame 22 Secretary...? 23 925 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, 24 Commissioner Grauer. 25 926 I'd like to just read off some names StenoTran 225 1 and if you can wave or smile or nod or something to let 2 me know that you're around the table. 3 927 We have Ngoc Tran Pham, Marta Gloria 4 Delavega, Sikandar Azam, John Nurany, Gabriel Yiu, 5 Magnus Thyvold, Mohammed Koya, Scott MacRae, James 6 Chung, Nathan Cho and Mohammed Janief. 7 928 Thank you very much. 8 929 Then our first presenter on this 9 panel will be Ngoc Tran Pham. Go ahead whenever you're 10 ready. 11 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 12 --- Background noise / bruit de fond 13 930 MS PHAM: So if you can't hear me, 14 please wave and don't sit there and just get angry. 15 Anyhow, I'd like to apologize because I'm fighting a 16 cold and I've been coughing for the last two, three 17 weeks and I hope that I don't cough too much and ruin 18 your tapes tonight. 19 931 THE CHAIRPERSON: It'll be the bells 20 welcoming you. 21 --- Laughter / Rires 22 932 MS PHAM: Oh, that's good. 23 933 Okay. Yes, my name is Ngoc Tran 24 Pham, and I'm a Vietnamese Canadian. I came to Canada 25 about 15 years ago and I've -- I lived in Canada, I StenoTran 226 1 lived in Ottawa since 1983, not 1993 like it says on 2 your sheets. And I moved to Vancouver about two and a 3 half years ago. 4 934 I'll just tell you a little bit about 5 my personal background, besides that. I've -- 6 currently I'm working as a coordinator of Vietnamese 7 Community Services and in particular, I am looking at, 8 with my project, I am looking at the effectiveness of 9 community services that are provided to the Vietnamese 10 Canadian clients in the Greater Vancouver area. And 11 the areas that we're looking at are health, employment, 12 ESL, youth and family issues. So it's an ambitious 13 project. 14 935 I work in an organization -- 15 organization called MOSAIC and it's an organization 16 that provides immigrants and refugees to Canada with a 17 settlement and integration needs or services, rather. 18 I've been an active member of the Vietnamese Canadian 19 community in Ottawa and in Vancouver, probably almost 20 15 years, both professionally and as a volunteer. 21 936 My contacts with the media, I guess 22 would include eight years volunteering as a host for a 23 Vietnamese radio program in Ottawa, and also I work in 24 collaboration with the local Vietnamese media here in 25 Vancouver. StenoTran 227 1 937 Let's see, you know, it's interesting 2 because as I was writing up this, making jot notes for 3 this presentation tonight, I realized that in a lot of 4 ways, it seems that there are -- it appears that there 5 are a lot of similarities between my work and the goals 6 of the CRTC Public Consultation tonight. And that is 7 that, you know, in my project, I and the people that 8 are working with me, really -- we really examine 9 services and we look at gaps in services and ways that 10 gaps can be bridged, so that we can better serve our 11 clients and we can work towards further -- furthering 12 the empowerment process for Vietnamese Canadians in the 13 Greater Vancouver area. 14 938 And it would seem that that is very 15 similar to the goals of the CRTC in that you're looking 16 at ways to -- you're really examining the broadcasting 17 system and looking at whether or not it effectively 18 serves multicultural communities in Canada. And I 19 think that you're also concerned about the extent to 20 which ethnic voices are being heard and being 21 represented in the media. 22 939 So I thought that was kind of 23 interesting, that we should have, you know, similar 24 goals, although my goals are more restricted in that I 25 work with only the Vietnamese Canadian community. StenoTran 228 1 940 Well, now I'll just jump into the 2 questions that were posed, the three questions 3 concerning the extent to which, you know, the 4 broadcasting system adequately services ethnic 5 communities. Questions about access and also 6 developing Canadian ethnocultural services rather than 7 importing foreign material. 8 941 Well, I would have to say that I feel 9 that the extent to which the current broadcasting 10 system serves ethnic communities is not quite adequate. 11 And I find that, particularly I think when it comes to 12 the news, I'll just -- well, it seems to me that the 13 media portrays only, as far as, you know, the 14 Vietnamese community is concerned, most often what we 15 see are only negative aspects of the community that get 16 broadcasted. And as a result, it seems that, you know, 17 that's the way that stereotypes become formed and 18 become perpetuated. 19 942 For example, you know if you turn on 20 the news and the only time that you hear the Vietnamese 21 Canadian community talked about are, you know, 22 reportings of crime and of gangs and problems, then you 23 know, over a period of time, if this is the only 24 images -- these are the only images that you get, then 25 it's understandable to see how stereotypes can develop StenoTran 229 1 about a certain community. And you can see how fear 2 within the mainstream community can get instilled in 3 people, and also a sense of embarrassment and shame may 4 become engrained in the community that has been 5 selected for this type of reporting. 6 943 So anyway, that's -- you know, I 7 think in terms of news reporting, that is something 8 that could be -- that could be changed and certainly 9 can be improved upon. 10 944 Let me just tell you a recent 11 experience that I've had with the news here in 12 Vancouver. You know, at MOSAIC, we recently received a 13 $20,000 grant to do a -- carry out a youth project and 14 you know, before we received this grant, the proposal 15 was brought up in City Council at one of the meetings 16 and because the agenda and also the minutes of City 17 Council meetings are public knowledge, I guess, the 18 media was able to access this. So MOSAIC got a whole 19 bunch of phone calls regarding this youth project and 20 it's interesting, the reaction of the local media 21 concerning this project. And I think it's very telling 22 in a lot of ways, too, because they automatically 23 zeroed in on the fact that -- you know, they said, 24 "Well, you know, we hear that you received this huge 25 grant and to do this project and we understand that you StenoTran 230 1 have a lot of problems, there are a lot of -- you know, 2 there are youth gangs happening everywhere and a lot of 3 crime and drop out" and all this stuff, and it seemed 4 like that was the only thing that they were focusing 5 on. 6 945 And, you know, when they were told 7 that, "Well, actually, you know, this project is -- 8 yes, we're looking at child interest and barriers that 9 Vietnamese Canadian youths are facing, but we're also 10 looking at strengths, as well, and we're bringing out 11 really positive aspects of the community and trying to 12 bring that forth so that people become more aware of 13 them." And you know, these reporters were invited to 14 come to the forum which will be happening, you know, 15 later on. And they said -- and at that point, you 16 know, it's, I guess, it no longer is a sensational 17 subject, so anyway, nobody wanted to do a story on us 18 any more. 19 946 So it just goes to show how sometimes 20 we -- sometimes we have our own personal agenda and we 21 would like to portray a community in a certain way and 22 you know, that is harmful, not only to the community 23 concerned, but I think it really is harmful to Canadian 24 society in general because it really -- it distorts the 25 truth about communities. It lets us -- it doesn't let StenoTran 231 1 us see the multifaceted aspect of all communities. And 2 I think that we all stand to lose if that kind of 3 reporting continues. 4 947 So you know, that is simply with the 5 news -- the news media. 6 948 But I also find that with programming 7 that is not news-related, I also find that there is a 8 lack, as well in that I don't see -- I don't see the -- 9 my own culture, my own ethnic background being 10 displayed in the media to any satisfactory degree. And 11 I certainly don't see other communities that I would 12 like to find out more about being adequately 13 represented. You know, that's something that I would 14 like to see changed in the future and, you know, I 15 think that it's very much achievable, although it will 16 take some time. 17 949 Next, I'll talk about -- I would like 18 to talk about access. And I find that no concerning -- 19 you know, the Vietnamese Canadian community here in 20 Vancouver that there is not adequate access to 21 programming, there's not enough access to -- for people 22 who would like to -- for people who are working in the 23 Vietnamese media, we're being very much -- I think 24 we're being very much limited in terms of how much we 25 can achieve because of lack of funding and the fact StenoTran 232 1 that we have to rely on volunteers to run our programs. 2 950 Let me just tell you about the TV and 3 programs that we do have here in Vancouver. 4 951 It's very interesting how that keeps 5 on ringing. 6 --- Laughter / Rires 7 952 MS PHAM: We have one radio program 8 which is approximately an hour a week. We have three 9 radio programs -- sorry, one TV program that's an hour 10 an week and then we have three radio programs and 11 altogether that's a total of only three hours a week. 12 953 Now, I have to tell you that the TV 13 program, it's actually non-existent at the moment 14 because there's not enough funding -- well, there's no 15 funding. No government funding whatsoever. And the TV 16 program is privately operated and owned. 17 954 I was speaking to the person in 18 charge the other day and he says, "Well, you know, 19 we've had to shut down for a few months because we 20 don't have the money. So we're not sure when we're 21 going to be back on again." But it just goes to show 22 you that there is needs that exist. 23 955 And so altogether four hours of 24 broadcasting for a population, you know, that is 25 approximately 33,000. That's 33,000 Vietnamese StenoTran 233 1 Canadians, approximately, living in the Greater 2 Vancouver area, and only about four hours of 3 programming a week, at best. 4 956 Yeah, it -- needless to say, there's 5 still a long ways to go. 6 957 Next, I'd like to talk about imported 7 services versus Canadian ethnocultural programs 8 developed here in Canada. 9 958 And I would say that ideally 10 priorities should be given to programs that are 11 developed here in Canada, because only such programs 12 can reflect the very current needs of the community and 13 there are a lot of needs that should be addressed, and 14 I find that the local Vietnamese media, as well as the 15 mainstream media could be a real vehicle in public 16 education regarding a whole bunch of community issues. 17 959 But the only thing is that it -- 18 needless to say, it costs so much money to produce a 19 radio program and it costs so much more money to 20 produce a quality television program that often I've 21 been told that, you know, for example, the TV program 22 is forced to fall back on imported material to fill up 23 the time. And it's kind of ironic because in some ways 24 we're -- my community's asking for more time and more 25 access to the media and yet, because we don't have the StenoTran 234 1 funding then, now we don't know what to do with the 2 time. 3 960 So it's, I guess it's we're asking 4 for support financially, but also enough of it so that 5 we can carry out -- so that it becomes adequate and so 6 that we can carry out our goals. 7 961 So in terms of recommendations, how 8 to improve the current system, I have to admit that I'm 9 very much -- I'm very much of a novice, I don't know 10 what recommendations I can make having absolutely no 11 experience, really, with any terms of policy, you know, 12 any part of the policy-making process. 13 962 So, I don't know. What can I say, 14 except that -- money, please. More funding and yeah, 15 I -- for community programming and ethnic programming 16 and -- well, I -- that just about wraps it up and I 17 guess to -- just to end my presentation, I guess I 18 would like to say that I really would like to share my 19 dream with you. 20 963 And that is that I would like to one 21 day see down the road in a few years, and I think it's 22 very achievable, I would like to see my community, the 23 Vietnamese Canadian community, as well as other ethnic 24 communities in Canada be represented in a more 25 realistic, more positive manner in the media. And I StenoTran 235 1 would like to have my community, as well as other 2 communities be real partners in the media and not just 3 presented as exotic, quaint or just -- yeah, I'm very 4 wary of being portrayed as an exotic foreigner in 5 Canada, because I think that's really -- what it does 6 is it sets boundaries between people and what it does 7 is it creates an atmosphere of us versus them. 8 964 And I would like to see one day, I 9 would like to have it so that mainstream media is -- or 10 rather -- I'm not sure how to say this adequately, and 11 I don't know how to use the correct term for it, 12 politically. But I would prefer that, you know, 13 caucasians or white people not -- and programming of a 14 mainstream sort not be considered -- not be considered 15 the norm, but rather as, you know, I would like us to 16 work as partners and I would like us to create an 17 environment in which cultures can be shared in a way 18 that promotes interest in other communities, to explore 19 our differences and our diversity. 20 965 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 21 much. You've been very eloquent and it isn't necessary 22 to give specific recommendations, and we certainly 23 appreciate hearing your views. Thank you. 24 966 MS PHAM: Thank you. 25 967 THE SECRETARY: Do we have any StenoTran 236 1 experience in this room as to how long we might expect 2 those bells to continue? 3 968 MR. JONES: The question is "For whom 4 the bell tolls". 5 --- Laughter / Rires 6 969 THE SECRETARY: Okay. Then we will 7 proceed with our next presenter, who is Marta Gloria 8 Delavega. 9 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 10 970 MS DELAVEGA: Thank you to the 11 members of the Commission for the time and effort, 12 dedicated and to all the people who have presented. 13 971 My name is Marta Gloria Delavega. I 14 work -- I am from Guatemala and work with the Christian 15 Task Force on Central America. And for 15 years, we 16 have been working as an educational ecumenical group, 17 trying to raise awareness about the situation in 18 Central America. 19 972 While doing this kind of work, we 20 have noticed that it will be very helpful if the media, 21 radio, television, and different ways of communication 22 could provide, besides the information that they 23 usually do, education to the different communities and 24 to the -- all the Canadian people. And at the same 25 time, in the ethnic communities, we need to use this StenoTran 237 1 opportunity to educate ourselves about Canada, about 2 indigenous people of North America and to start knowing 3 each other. 4 973 This is particularly important in a 5 Canadian context in which diversity is common in all -- 6 in most of the cities, because when different members 7 or different communities or ethnic groups are portrayed 8 only in the negative aspect, usually that instills or 9 brings fear to other people, to other communities. And 10 fear is something very risky in our context. It's 11 risky because we all know that what we fear, we try to 12 destroy. 13 974 There are -- in these times of 14 globalization, there are aspects in which could be very 15 important to educate the public through radio and 16 television. 17 975 For instance, we may take two issues. 18 One is about immigration. Canada is a society made 19 throughout centuries by -- formed by immigrants. And 20 now we are seeing that the immigrants that are coming 21 are being portrayed as -- in different ways as people 22 who take jobs, as persons who benefit from the health 23 system, but we are looking just as to one side of the 24 -- or to one aspect of the whole situation. In very 25 few opportunities, we have seen about the positive StenoTran 238 1 contributions that immigrants make to Canadian society, 2 or about the amount of taxes that are paid by these 3 immigrants or the different types of contributions that 4 could be made. 5 976 It is very important, also, that 6 through the radio and TV there is information and 7 education about the causes and the economic roots of 8 the immigration problem, because it is true that now 9 with the globalization, we need to understand and to 10 try to develop a different relationship north and 11 south. These, we can use as an opportunity. 12 977 When we also talk about the -- I have 13 read about section 3 of the Broadcasting Act and that 14 the Canadian broadcasting system should serve the needs 15 and interests of Canadian men, women and children, 16 including equal rights. And concerning this aspect, it 17 will be also important to talk about what we could call 18 "prevention and education". 19 978 For instance, in the last year or so, 20 we have seen increasingly the issue of child 21 apprehension in ethnic communities. And very little 22 has been said in the radio, either ethnic radio or TV 23 to educate the public about this situation. And these 24 can really affect the harmony that is being looked or 25 tried to achieve in the Canadian society. We are StenoTran 239 1 seeing increasingly affected communities such as 2 Chinese community, Latin American and other ethnic 3 communities with child apprehension. And these, the 4 radio and TV could really help to educate and to make 5 public what are the expectations, what is needed and 6 even though we have seen that may be very few cases in 7 which apprehension may be required, it should be the 8 exception and not the rule. 9 979 I mean, that aspect, we are asking 10 that ways of communication help to prevent deeper 11 conflict and also to prevent the long term effects that 12 apprehension are having on children and to learn from 13 what has happened to indigenous communities here in 14 Canada and how they affect in that community may be 15 repeated several times over with devastating 16 consequences. 17 980 And these are only two issues that we 18 would like to mention. 19 981 Concerning the recommendations, we 20 would like to see youths, the radio and TV and the 21 policy framework asking that ethnic communication also 22 dedicate time to educate about human rights and 23 fundamental freedoms. In issues such as the universal 24 declaration of human rights, the international 25 agreements on economic, social and civil and cultural StenoTran 240 1 rights, as part of fulfilling its social mandate. 2 982 We also would like to see that a 3 special programs, as the second recommendation, that a 4 special programs are directed at children and youth 5 with their participation about issues that are relevant 6 for them. For instance, in education, health, 7 prevention and respect for diversity. We think that 8 it's very important, the inclusion of youth and 9 children in the planning of these programming. And the 10 results could be very encouraging. 11 983 The third recommendation is that a 12 percentage of the programming also should be directed 13 to women's interests and needs. And in their own 14 language. 15 984 The last recommendation is concerning 16 the funding to alternative radio and TV. That it would 17 be important to increase it and in Vancouver, there are 18 few radio stations, for instance, who carry these types 19 of programming and they are always struggling with 20 funding. And in that aspect, cross-cultural 21 information, education and referrals and activities, 22 could help us to avoid future conflict and also to have 23 a more rich and peaceful society. 24 985 Thank you. 25 986 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. StenoTran 241 1 987 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter 2 this evening is Sikandar Azam. 3 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 4 988 MR. AZAM: Madame Chair and members 5 of the CRTC, ladies and gentlemen, good evening. 6 989 My name is Sikandar Azam, and I came 7 to Canada about 23 years ago, now I'm a Canadian 8 citizen and I'm from Fiji Islands. 9 990 Frankly speaking, I did not prepare 10 anything, I came as an audience, but I'm just trying to 11 fill in the slot for somebody and what I'm trying to 12 give my views here, is actually coming from my heart 13 and I have had concerns for a long time, and this is 14 the best opportunity I've heard to air my views right 15 now. 16 991 I have my own business, and I come in 17 contact with lots of Canadians in the Lower Mainland, 18 so I have a fair knowledge of what they think of us. 19 992 I belong to Fiji Muslim Association 20 which comprises of something like 80,000 here in the 21 Lower Mainland. And frankly speaking, there is nothing 22 whatsoever in the media, especially on multicultural 23 channel that says anything about the Fiji Muslim 24 Association. 25 993 As you all know, there are 1.2 StenoTran 242 1 billion Muslims all over the world and there's not a 2 day that goes by that in the world media, of CNN and 3 other, there's something about Muslims that is either 4 negative or positive, but there is always about Muslims 5 all over the world. So understanding about Muslims is 6 a very important aspect of our life here, whether we be 7 Canadians or whether we be ethnic group or whatever. 8 994 To understand us is to get some 9 education and that's the best way to know what it's all 10 about. If you want to know something positive, you got 11 to understand what they're talking about, not what the 12 media presents. 13 995 Media is a very, very strong weapon, 14 whether it can make it or break it. So most of the 15 time, I hear news over the air, news in the TV and I'm 16 appalled at what they're trying to say. 17 996 What I'm trying to say here is 18 specifically channel 20 provided by Rogers Cable, now 19 this channel has at least, I would say, Fijian -- three 20 different Fijian programming by three different 21 associations. This is all lopsided, one sided and 22 there is nothing whatsoever about anything about 23 Muslims from Fiji. It says it's a channel -- it's a 24 Fijian program. But frankly speaking, I'm appalled at 25 what I see, because that is the channel or that is -- I StenoTran 243 1 have some friends, my neighbours who are Croatians 2 Canadians, Chinese, they watch all those programs and 3 they say, "What's going on? Is that what where you 4 come from?" That doesn't give a right picture of what 5 we are. Fiji is supposed to be the paradise of the 6 Pacific and that's what the image should be. Not what 7 is portrayed by these channels that we see. 8 997 So I'm really appalled. Actually, I 9 was talking to Shushma who represents RimJhim Radio 10 Station and I was very pleased to see that there was a 11 big flood and she did a marvellous job collecting -- 12 raising money for the Fiji Disaster Fund, and those are 13 the kinds of things we need in TV, which is 14 non-existent at this time. 15 998 So what I'm trying to say is we need 16 a cross-section, we need a balanced programming in our 17 multicultural society, multicultural channels so that 18 we have a fair knowledge of what goes on and where we 19 are, where we come from, we can feel proud of; not by 20 watching those appalling programs which is lopsided and 21 many times meaningless. 22 999 I have -- I go and see my customers 23 in the Lower Mainland who happen to be basically 24 Canadians and many a time, they offer me, say, coffee 25 and I say, "No, it's my fasting month. No." They say, StenoTran 244 1 "Fasting? You go hungry?", I say, "Yes, from dawn to 2 dusk." So fasting is not, fasting or Ramadan is not 3 just going hungry, there's so many aspects of it. 4 There's a how, respect, moral, there's a charity, 5 there's so many. After I explain to them for 15 6 minutes, they're so pleased, they say, "Can we do 7 something like this?" I say, "Most certainly, because 8 there is so many merits behind it". 9 1000 So what I found there is a need of 10 education. You have to educate, you have -- you have 11 to -- and the best way of education is by media, by 12 television, by radio. And here we are lacking all 13 those things in a very, very bad way. And there's a 14 great need to do something about it. 15 1001 I will not go any further because I 16 think -- I'm just sharing these thoughts with somebody 17 here and I'll just conclude here. All I'll say is we 18 should -- I mean, I'd request the members of the CRTC 19 to look what I have to say here, frankly speaking, the 20 population of the Muslims in Canada right now, across 21 the board, is about half a million. In ten years' time 22 it will be a million. So we should be about one-third 23 of the population of Canada and there is a need to 24 know, especially when you have 1.2 billion Muslims 25 across the world, to know what it's all about and you StenoTran 245 1 hear of them. 2 1002 So my request is there's a time, we 3 need more slot -- not really need more slot, actually 4 there's no slot at all right now. And I'm very pleased 5 with the programming back in east and that's all -- any 6 program that's done in Toronto is done so well and I'm 7 afraid why the same situation cannot exist here in 8 Lower Mainland, which does not exist at all. And they 9 have excellent programming up there. Some Islamic or 10 Muslim programs and it's well done. Over here is 11 basically nil. And I would certainly like to see, 12 personally, that we have more programming, something of 13 the same situation as what is done in Toronto so that 14 will serve our community. 15 1003 Thank you. 16 1004 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 17 much. 18 1005 THE SECRETARY: I'd now like to 19 invite John Nurany to make his presentation. 20 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 21 1006 MR. NURANY: Madame Chair and members 22 of the Commission. My name is John Nurany and I'm a 23 businessman by profession and I'm of South Asian 24 origin, being born and brought up in Kenya and 25 immigrated to Canada 25 years ago. StenoTran 246 1 1007 I also have the privilege of serving 2 in some of the Community Service Boards. I sit on the 3 Board of Family Services of Greater Vancouver and the 4 Michael J. Fox Theatre, and I also am the President of 5 the Rotary Club in Burnaby. 6 1008 What we are hearing tonight across 7 the room here, I think there is a cry for sharing 8 culture, for getting more voice, getting more time on 9 television, with the sole purpose of not just enjoying 10 the entertainment, but also educating the different 11 ethnic groups. 12 1009 The issues you are discussing today 13 are to what extent does the present broadcasting system 14 adequately serve Canada's ethnoculture communities. 15 Second, given the demographic changes that have taken 16 place in Canada, how can the needs and the interests of 17 the ethnocultural communities continue to be served. 18 And finally, should there be a priority on the 19 development of Canadian ethnocultural services, rather 20 than importing foreign services. 21 1010 To deal with the first issue, whether 22 the present system adequately serves Canada's 23 ethnocultural communities, I would like to suggest that 24 whilst they do meet a need, there is certainly room for 25 more access and broader based programming. StenoTran 247 1 1011 The third language programs have 2 become a great source of communicating with the 3 minority groups and this medium should contain elements 4 of understanding Canada and its virtues. 5 1012 The entertainment aspect and 6 identification with ethnicity is well served with these 7 programs. It is my opinion that whilst these programs 8 should continue, they should strive to broaden the base 9 and attempt to have an inclusive approach. 10 1013 The second point, given the 11 demographic changes that have taken place in Canada, 12 how can the needs and interests of the ethnocultural 13 communities continue to be served. 14 1014 I would like to propose that a new 15 dimension should be added whereby the third language 16 programs should have a good portion of local events and 17 to discuss and educate about Canadian values and 18 lifestyle. 19 1015 I'll give you a brief example of what 20 I have seen and witnessed in course of my community 21 services in the last few weeks. There is a family that 22 I visited that lived in an apartment that was dark. 23 And upon questioning, we found out that they felt that 24 in order to change the bulb, they had to ask the 25 landlord. And they did not know who the landlord was, StenoTran 248 1 so they were just living in dark. 2 1016 The second example of a family that 3 we took out grocery shopping and when we went back, we 4 asked him to put away the groceries and we left. 5 --- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques 6 1017 MR. NURANY: This is the darkness 7 that I'm talking about. 8 --- Laughter / Rires 9 1018 MR. NURANY: If I may continue. 10 1019 We left them there and came back the 11 next day to find out if everything was okay. We 12 noticed that the meat was sitting out on the counter, 13 while the cans of vegetables and fruits were sitting in 14 the freezer. They thought that the freezer was a 15 cupboard. 16 1020 Now, these are different ethnic 17 background people, the immigrants who come to this 18 country and have no way of finding out the Canadian 19 lifestyle. 20 1021 Television is a great medium, not 21 only for dispensing and disseminating ethnic cultural 22 values, it is also to address and educate the 23 immigrants that are coming to this country. And with 24 that in view, the communities should be accorded the 25 facilities to produce and be given the opportunity to StenoTran 249 1 learn about media presentation. 2 1022 New channels should be dedicated with 3 longer time to be able to do proper justice to 4 programming. The new reality of changing demography 5 must be considered, perhaps we should look at the 6 methods of bringing a better understanding of each 7 other's cultures and languages. 8 1023 The programs should be developed 9 whereby it is not attracting only the specialty group, 10 but which can also be enjoyed by all with the 11 opportunity to learn perhaps a new language. 12 1024 As diversity continues to grow, less 13 and less time will be accorded to community 14 programming. I suggest that more channels should be 15 assigned for ethnic broadcasting and one of the 16 astonishing factors that I see in ethnic programs that 17 are presently available in broadcast, it is amazing to 18 see that there is nothing that exists for aboriginal 19 communities in Canada. I think this should be an issue 20 and a note that the CRTC should closely examine. 21 1025 With regard to the third point of 22 whether there should be priority on the development of 23 Canadian ethnocultural services rather than importing 24 foreign services, I would like to say that a good 25 balance should be achieved between the two. Whilst it StenoTran 250 1 is important for entertainment perspective to use 2 foreign service, it is also important to develop 3 Canadian service. The latter will offer enormous 4 opportunity for creativity and development of 5 resources. 6 1026 As we move into a more enduring and 7 tolerant society, it is important that we show 8 responsibility in the quality of programming. The 9 development of Canadian ethnocultural service should be 10 considered the requirement of high quality. 11 1027 We've only talked about specifically 12 the ethnic dedicated programming. I would like also to 13 suggest that in the mainstream Canadian reporting and 14 programming, we should encourage more ethnic content. 15 The news channels should cover more of the 16 international news with relevance to changing 17 demography. 18 1028 The ethnic content must not be 19 allowed to be appropriated. The culture and art should 20 be exposed from the eyes and voices of the ethnic 21 members. The danger of appropriation should be 22 avoided. The mainstream culture and art should reach 23 out and afford the facility for ethnic involvement. 24 The example of late singer musician and composer, 25 Nostratali (ph) who achieved enrichment by bringing StenoTran 251 1 South Asian flavour to western music is a classic point 2 in question. The sharing of culture and art should be 3 a pleasant experience and not a reluctant effort. 4 1029 Finally, let me reiterate what must 5 have been said several times before, that the power of 6 television is unmitigated and it is for us to ensure 7 that this very substantial and influential tool is 8 appropriately used to serve us well. 9 1030 Thank you for listening. 10 1031 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 11 Nurany. 12 1032 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter is 13 Gabriel Yiu. 14 1900 15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 16 1033 MR. YIU: Madame Chair, members of 17 the Commission, ladies and gentlemen. 18 1034 Good evening. My name is Gabriel 19 Yiu, I'm an immigrant from Hong Kong and right now I'm 20 a businessman and an independent commentator. 21 1035 I was talk show host on current 22 affairs in Chinese radio for three years, and I was 23 also a current affairs columnist for a Chinese 24 newspaper. Right now, I'm a columnist for business in 25 Vancouver, a regular contributor to the Vancouver Sun StenoTran 252 1 and director of the B.C. Newspaper Foundation. 2 1036 My contribution in the media is 3 recognized by the City of Vancouver with an award 4 called Cultural Harmony Award. 5 1037 Section 3(d)(iii) of the Broadcasting 6 Act states that: 7 "... the Canadian broadcasting 8 system should serve the needs 9 and interests and reflect the 10 circumstances and aspirations of 11 Canadian men, women and 12 children, including equal 13 rights, the linguistic duality 14 and multicultural and 15 multiracial nature of Canadian 16 society." 17 1038 Although the CRTC ethnic programming 18 requires the broadcasting system, that is mainstream 19 and also ethnic media alike, to serve and reflect the 20 multicultural and multiracial nature of Canadian 21 society, the fact is that only the ethnic media which 22 target particular ethnic groups truly serve the ethnic 23 minorities. 24 1039 We have, indeed, in recent years, 25 seen some ethnic faces in mainstream media. But as it StenoTran 253 1 regards to themes, reporting angle, advertising and 2 policies, the needs and interests of ethnocultural 3 communities are neither reflected nor catered to. When 4 one looks at the print media, the Vancouver Sun has 5 done a much better job in covering news of ethnic 6 groups and that of the Pacific Rim. 7 1040 Ethnic media depends on the 8 commercial markets and services of ethnic groups and so 9 aim to serve the groups on which the markets and 10 services in turn depend. 11 1041 Consider the Chinese language media. 12 With the rapid increase in population of Chinese 13 immigrants over the past ten years, the Chinese media 14 as a whole, both visual and print, have expanded in 15 production volume to a point that rivals that of the 16 English media. In truth, the Chinese media form a 17 system in itself, no longer the several-hours-a-week 18 fair it was before, and outrank the media of other 19 ethnic groups. 20 1042 When one looks at the functions 21 performed by the Chinese media, it is fair to say that 22 they have played a significant role in sustaining 23 Chinese traditions and the Chinese language, supplying 24 daily information on community events and 25 entertainment, supporting Chinese charity associations StenoTran 254 1 and cultivating a sense of community. Moreover, it has 2 assisted in the formation of a commercial market around 3 the Chinese community. All these are palatable 4 achievements, and credit must go to the Chinese media. 5 1043 Because the Chinese media have a 6 direct and definite influence on the development of 7 Chinese community, any new broadcasting policy which 8 has an effect on them should also meet the interests of 9 the society and the nation at large. 10 1044 In controlling the mainstream media, 11 CRTC's concern is to maintain Canadian content as a way 12 of bolstering Canadian culture. The primary goal is to 13 resist the dominance of U.S. culture. In regard to 14 ethnic media, CRTC's policy is: 15 "... intended to encourage the 16 growth and development of ethnic 17 programming in Canada, to assist 18 in ensuring that culturally and 19 racially distinct groups receive 20 broadcasting services and to 21 enhance the variety and broaden 22 the scope of the Canadian 23 broadcasting system." 24 1045 The goal is to maintain ethnic 25 traditional culture and its link, cultural and StenoTran 255 1 linguistic, with the place of origin. While there is a 2 fear of acculturation by the U.S., there is little sign 3 of fear of the ghettoization of ethnic peoples and 4 cultures. 5 1046 Although the Chinese media is also 6 subject to the criterion of Canadian content, the 7 effect of this criterion on this operation is quite 8 different. Take radio as an example. The Cancon can 9 be satisfied by including so many Canadian songs, but 10 talk radio does not have to be by or about Canadians. 11 So Chinese radios can have massive programs on current 12 affairs, history, culture and entertainment on China, 13 Hong Kong or Taiwan. 14 1047 Even television programs produced 15 locally, say those about Chinese traditions, may not be 16 linked to Canada or help audience in understanding 17 Canada. Just as Canadian TV viewers often want U.S. 18 sitcoms in prime time spots, so Chinese Canadian quite 19 often like to view Hong Kong programs (even Hong Kong 20 produced current affairs programs) at prime time 21 instead of late at night. Chinese TV stations 22 regularly get requests for moving late-night imported 23 programs to replace local production in the prime time. 24 1048 The Chinese broadcasts are, for the 25 majority of immigrants, the only cultural product StenoTran 256 1 consumed regularly. Chinese programs, therefore, should 2 take up the role of assisting viewers to understand 3 society and to bridge the cultural divides. 4 1049 If we look at Chinese media news 5 production, we see a product of a reasonable standard, 6 and one that centres round happenings in Canada. But 7 there is not enough analysis of events that could have 8 profound effect on Chinese Canadians. Such events are 9 of weekly, if not daily, occurrence; whether to set up 10 traditional schools, the book ban in Surrey, reform of 11 the immigration and refugee policies, et cetera. Yet 12 these are merely reported on, and we get little 13 in-depth analysis from a fresh viewpoint. 14 1050 If we look at resource-rich 15 mainstream media, there are likewise few discerning 16 reports of the impingement of the values of 17 multiculturalism on social issues. And few are 18 programs that depict multicultural communities. 19 1051 In view of the rapid demographic 20 changes in the last ten years as well as the challenges 21 of new technology, the renewed evaluation of CRTC of 22 its direction is a timely manner. 23 1052 The fact is, the Internet has brought 24 with it tremendous change to the Chinese media. Hong 25 Kong newspapers and editorials are now freely available StenoTran 257 1 to net browsers. Hong Kong radios can be tuned into 2 hourly. Satellite TV broadcast, and in the future, 3 digitalized high-capacity channels will be easily 4 accessible. The Chinese media see themselves as under 5 threat. 6 1053 One form the threat takes is in the 7 area of cost, specifically salaries. Take the TV 8 station run by the same company with two channels -- 9 one Cantonese serving immigrants from Hong Kong and 10 South China, one Mandarin channel serving those from 11 China and Taiwan. The salaries of its employees are 12 about half those of their English counterparts. In 13 other words, they can survive because of lower cost. 14 Once more channels are open, competition will reduce 15 income and the station might not be viable. And the 16 downturn in the Asian economy has left local Chinese 17 economy gasping for air. 18 1054 There is a parallel between the 19 Canadian media and the local Chinese media: both are 20 under threat from imported products, one from the U.S., 21 the other from Hong Kong. The Chinese media here is of 22 course on a much smaller scale. Still, if there is 23 going to be more programs from outside Canada, then 24 even though the audience may have a wider range of 25 choice, local Chinese productions and its quality will StenoTran 258 1 decline, and that will not be conducive to a clearer 2 sense of Canadian identity. 3 1055 Multiculturalism can be a tool to 4 help immigrants adapt to the large community, but it 5 can also promote multi-ethnocentrism. What is certain 6 is that for multiculturalism to succeed in Canada and 7 to achieve a harmonious inclusive society, ethnic 8 media, as well as mainstream media, has a crucial role 9 to play. 10 1056 Thank you. 11 1057 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Yiu. 12 1058 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter 13 this evening is Magnus Thyvold. 14 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 15 1059 MR. THYVOLD: Welcome, Madame 16 Chairman, and thank you for having me here today. 17 1060 My name is Magnus Thyvold, I 18 represent the National Campus & Community Radio 19 Association. The NCRA is an association representing 20 campus and community stations across Canada, largely in 21 English Canada. 22 1061 In Public Notice 1998-135, the CRTC 23 asked the question: 24 "Do campus and community radio 25 stations have a significant role StenoTran 259 1 to play in providing programming 2 to targeted ethnic groups?" 3 1062 The answer to this question is "yes". 4 Campus and community stations across the country, in 5 almost every case, have multicultural programming of 6 some kind. This takes the form of a variety of third 7 language and mixed language programs. In almost every 8 case, these are generated from and serving local 9 communities. These programs provide an important 10 service to their communities. 11 1063 Also, in the Public Notice, the CRTC 12 asked: 13 "Should campus and community 14 stations be authorized to 15 provide more ethnic programming 16 without authorization?" 17 1064 Namely, should -- I interpret that to 18 mean that should the limit on ethnic programming for 19 non-ethnic stations, at least in the case of campus and 20 community radio stations be raised? And the answer, I 21 feel is that this limit should be raised to at least 20 22 percent. Many speakers who have spoken here this 23 evening have made the point that there is not enough 24 ethnic programming available and I think steps to make 25 more opportunities available for ethnic programming are StenoTran 260 1 desirable. 2 1065 The 15 percent limit on ethnic 3 programming on non-ethnic radio stations, as defined by 4 the CRTC, is intended to keep those stations from 5 impinging on the market segment of ethnic stations and 6 perhaps threatening the viability of those stations. 7 The programming offered by campus and community 8 stations differs in many ways from that presented by 9 ethnic radio stations. 10 1066 Campus and community stations are 11 located in many communities across Canada. Most of 12 these are not served by an existing ethnic station. In 13 many communities, campus and community -- ethnic 14 programming provided by campus and community stations 15 represents the only availability of such programming in 16 that community. 17 1067 Furthermore, ethnic programming on 18 campus and community radio stations is created by 19 members of the local community and is targeted 20 specifically at the local community. Virtually no 21 station across the country, that I'm aware of, imports 22 either from outside of their community or from an 23 international community, except in very limited cases, 24 its ethnic programming. It is provided by volunteers 25 from the community who are often very involved in their StenoTran 261 1 communities, not only at the radio station, but in a 2 number of different community organizations that are 3 often well-known within their communities. 4 1068 News and information about local 5 events and activities are a major part of the 6 programming provided. In addition, students and even 7 international students are involved in ethnic 8 programming on campus and community stations. Because 9 of the importance of community information on these 10 programs, they often feature a higher level of spoken 11 word content than is typical of many commercial ethnic 12 stations. 13 1069 Furthermore, because ethnic 14 programming on a campus and community station is 15 justified on the basis of an identified community need 16 rather than the potential for ad revenue, many ethnic 17 groups are able to be served -- are able to be served 18 or would be -- sorry. Many ethnic groups are able to 19 be served that would be ignored by the regular 20 commercial media, which is to say, the regular 21 commercial medium, besides ethnic media, also has a 22 role to play in providing ethnic programming, but for 23 many of those -- many of those media outlets, they only 24 provide ethnic programming where there is a potential 25 for advertising to offset the cost, because it's not StenoTran 262 1 their central mandate. 2 1070 This, for the most part, isn't an 3 issue for campus and community radio and its largely 4 volunteer-based programming. So that it is able to 5 serve many communities that are smaller or perhaps too 6 small to be served by the commercial media. 7 1071 Generally speaking, ad revenue 8 generated through campus and community ethnic 9 programming is not large by community radio standards 10 and should not be considered a threat to commercial 11 ethnic radio ventures. Ethnic radio programming is a 12 very important part and a very important means by which 13 campus and community radio stations reflect the 14 communities they serve, including their ethnocultural 15 diversity. 16 1072 Additionally, because campus and 17 community serve so many, sometimes smaller 18 communities -- sometimes smaller ethnic communities 19 within their communities, and in almost -- certainly in 20 my personal experience, they almost always would like 21 more time than they have, one hour a week isn't very 22 much to try and cover the many issues and events going 23 on in a community and they're always asking for more. 24 1073 The answer, I think would be, a good 25 idea to raise that 15 percent limit to at least 20 StenoTran 263 1 percent, perhaps even more, depending on how that 2 impacts on other issues. So that it is easier for 3 campus and community stations and they're provided more 4 flexibility to serve these communities without having 5 to resort to requesting an exemption order from the 6 CRTC. 7 1074 We would also like to see the 8 recognition that ethnic programming on campus and 9 community radio is complementary to that provided by 10 other ethnic services, including ethnic radio stations, 11 the ability to -- of campus and community stations to 12 provide programming for ethnic communities should be 13 protected and guaranteed. And by that, I'm referring 14 just to the potential for commercial ethnic stations to 15 make the case that ethnic programming on a community 16 station and the advertising that it generates, which is 17 never terribly large, threatens their ability to 18 generate revenue. 19 1075 I don't believe that's true and I 20 think the services provided to campus and community 21 stations is very much complementary to that provided by 22 commercial ethnic stations. And particularly the very 23 strong, local community focus that these programs have, 24 is an important service. 25 1076 The one other issue I'd like to StenoTran 264 1 address is Canadian content. Ethnic programmers on our 2 stations across the country have found it very 3 difficult to get access to sufficient amounts of 4 Canadian content ethnic programming. It's very easy to 5 get -- or not programming, sorry, music. It's very 6 easy to get ethnic music of all sorts, but it is quite 7 difficult to get ethnic music on recording produced 8 here in Canada, and I think in the new ethnic policy, I 9 think some action needs to be taken to address that 10 issue, whether -- probably I would think mainly through 11 some means of providing greater support to ethnic music 12 artists through such venues as Factor or Music Action, 13 with particular attention to product distribution and 14 providing resources to artists to help them get their 15 music out and across Canada. 16 1077 Thank you very much. 17 1078 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I think 18 Commissioner Cardozo has a question. 19 1079 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, 20 Madame Chair. 21 1080 Mr. Thyvold, I just had a question 22 about the last point you were making and that is access 23 to Canadian-made music from ethnic minority artists. 24 1081 You're aware of Factor or Music 25 Action, which is, for people who may not be aware of StenoTran 265 1 it, it's a program that is jointly funded by the 2 Federal Government and radio stations who by a small 3 amount of money -- I shouldn't say "small", but a 4 certain amount of money, back into production of new 5 Canadian music in general, just to try and encourage 6 Canadian artists, especially new artists and -- as 7 opposed to the more famous ones, who are usually 8 commercially successful in their own right. 9 1082 We have raised some questions with 10 them and they certainly have started, over the last 11 couple of years, to diversify the kind of artists who 12 are getting funded. And what they do is fund artists 13 who have either not had a record or I think, had one or 14 two records, I'm not sure of the exact criteria. So 15 they have begun to fund and support artists from 16 minority communities. 17 1083 I'm just wondering to what extent you 18 are aware that campus radios do have access to the 19 music that they produce, because essentially what they 20 do is they produce this music and I understand they 21 send it free to radio stations to -- as promotions to 22 pick up from them. And I'm wondering to what extent 23 campus radio stations have access to that music? 24 1084 MR. THYVOLD: It still is very much a 25 problem reported by our programmers that it is StenoTran 266 1 difficult to get a hold of it. I think part of it is, 2 while in some cases it's out there, it's hard to find 3 or track down. 4 1085 You know, it's great if there's a 5 small label in Toronto that's putting out some stuff, 6 but if a programmer or my music director at my station 7 isn't aware of it, I think that's as much a problem and 8 that's why, you know, I made reference to distribution 9 and various resources that could help the various 10 producers of this music, a) make people aware of it, 11 make stations aware of it. And I don't know whether 12 that requires perhaps some sort of centralized resource 13 or web site or whatever, that sort of is like a 14 clearing house for that sort of information, because -- 15 but that's, I think, often, you know, as much the 16 problem as whether the music actually exists even. 17 1086 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you. 18 1087 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 19 1088 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter is 20 Mohammed Koya. 21 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 22 1089 MR. KOYA: Madame Chair, members of 23 the CRTC, ladies and gentlemen. Good evening. 24 1090 I'm from the Fiji Islands and I've 25 been in this country for the last 23 years. And in the StenoTran 267 1 present I'm a self-employed businessman, as a food 2 broker. 3 1091 And 99.9 percent of my customers are 4 all Canadians. And sometimes we do sit down, have 5 coffee and it has been brought to my attention about 6 our ethnic backgrounds and in discussions it comes out 7 that by my name, my first name is Mohammed, it's 8 obvious that anybody who hears this name will say that 9 I'm a Muslim. 10 1092 There are sometimes when people are 11 misguided, especially in the western world, in North 12 America. To the best of my knowledge, these misguiding 13 informations are being given by most of the news media, 14 papers, which gives the wrong impression to the public. 15 1093 Madame Chairperson, in order to get 16 this kind of problems solved, it is my request, a 17 humble request, that if the Commission will consider 18 putting some kind of problem in the multicultural 19 situation so that the entire community can understand 20 what our Islam is. 21 1094 Basically, when we say "Islam", it 22 means that peace, harmony. We are in this country 23 about 80,000 Muslims live in B.C. and I'm proud to be a 24 member of the B.C. Muslim Association in B.C. and we 25 have branches all over B.C. and I represent as the StenoTran 268 1 Director of the Burnaby branch of the Muslim 2 Association. 3 1095 We have a plan right now in Burnaby 4 to accommodate people of all the -- all the races so 5 that we can propagate what is the actual meaning of 6 "Islam". Like, we see in the news media most of the 7 time, anytime anything happens in this world, a bomb 8 takes place or a plane is hijacked or some kind of 9 unnatural disaster happens without any questions asked, 10 it is the first blame to the Muslims. 11 1096 As a matter of fact, I have my best 12 customer in Langley and they are Christians. As a 13 matter of fact, they have even asked me, "Why you guys 14 are sitting down? Why are you sitting down? How come 15 you people can't oppose this?" We have political 16 qualified people in our community who can sit down with 17 the CRTC, give the full explanation of our religion. 18 If this takes place, there will be no, what do you 19 call, differences between the Muslims and non-Muslims 20 all over the world. 21 1097 And besides that, Madame Chairperson, 22 we, as immigrants, we've came here, work hard and this 23 will be our permanent residence here in B.C. or in 24 Canada, and we love to follow the culture, the 25 traditions and abide by the rules of the country. And StenoTran 269 1 the only way we are succeeding is that at home, we're 2 the parents, we have discipline in our house. When we 3 send our children to school, we tell them what is 4 right, what is wrong, go to school straight, no 5 smoking, don't talk to strangers, don't take anything, 6 don't steal. And quite a lot when they came home we 7 asked them questions, "What happened?" Sometimes the 8 answer is negative, sometimes positive. 9 1098 And in order to what you call, get 10 the ethnic information to the public, if this kind of 11 problems are in the, what do you call, cablevision, it 12 will be advantage to most of the ethnic community. 13 1099 Apart from this, Madame Chairperson, 14 there are some other kinds of laws the ethnic community 15 don't understand. For example, I say, like if I was in 16 Fiji and if I had been stopped by a cop there, 17 immediately I can get out of my car and start talking 18 to the cop. But whereas in this country, you cannot. 19 As soon as I get out of the car, the gun is at my head. 20 I don't blame the cop. 21 1100 As a matter of fact, I had a friend 22 who came from -- all the way from Vietnam, a 23 businessman, and we were driving around and I was 24 stopped. And this gentleman, poor guy, he didn't know 25 the rules and thus he got out and he was handcuffed. I StenoTran 270 1 had to, what do you call, beg the cop, "He's a 2 newcomer, he'll be going away within the next couple of 3 days and he's my guest and I request to release him." 4 "Oh, no. He got out of the car." The reason why he 5 got out of the car so he could ask, what happened. 6 That's what they do there. 7 1101 And in my opinion, like, if once a 8 month or once every two months if some kind of program 9 has been kept in the, what do you call, ethnic channel 10 with the police department, people would understand how 11 to recall, talk with the cops or what is the procedure 12 to be followed when you are stopped by a cop. 13 1102 Similarly in what do you call, 14 travelling all over the places, if you go somewhere in 15 the country, travelling is very hard. But here, it's 16 very simple. It is very simple. We've got all kinds 17 of transportation here. All kinds of transportation. 18 Nothing at home. We cannot complain about that. 19 1103 And basically, when we are in this 20 province, when we do some parking, we have problems. 21 People want to fight. Mostly, like with ethnic people. 22 And this kind of information should be got to, what do 23 you call, public, how to behave or show some kind of 24 encouragement so that they can go and take, what do you 25 call, videotape and play it in what you call, ethnic StenoTran 271 1 program. People, they are not aware how to drive or 2 how to, what do you call, go to the spot, from Point A 3 to Point B. It is quite clear to them. This will 4 avoid some problems. 5 1930 6 1104 In conclusion, ladies and gentlemen, 7 and Madame Chair, I'm sorry, When I was talking about 8 that we, as Muslims, in all of the world, are peaceful 9 people, if this CRTC later on need any kind of help 10 from our Association, which is B.C. Muslim Association, 11 we will never hesitate to come and talk, sit down and 12 give our 100 percent view about Islam. 13 1105 Apart from this, there are lots of 14 things which we are doing, like normally there are two 15 kinds of things when we do, sometimes when we do some 16 kind of favour or help, when we give from this hand, we 17 don't pay out of this hand. But then again, in order 18 to let the public know, especially a place like this, 19 it's no harm. Like, we, as Muslims, we've just 20 finished what is called our "month of holy Momra" (ph) 21 and this was the time, like, once a year, when each and 22 every Muslim, after all the expenses paid and if there 23 is any surplus money left over, including the gold, we 24 have to, it's a must, give donation or charity, two and 25 a half percent. StenoTran 272 1 1106 (Indiscernible, not English) when 2 pleased to let the CRTC know that, and the ladies and 3 gentlemen here, that we have done a very wonderful job 4 for the last ten years. We are doing that and we are 5 not just giving to our Muslim, we also have to 6 (indiscernible, not English), as long as we get our 7 proper record and we go and visit the homes and we look 8 after them. 9 1107 Hopefully I got my message, Madame 10 Chairperson, and once again, I would like to thank you 11 and if there's any question, I'd be glad to answer 12 them. 13 1108 Thank you. 14 1109 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 15 Koya. Yes, you did get your message across. Thank 16 you. 17 1110 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter 18 this evening is Scott MacRae. 19 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 20 1111 MR. MacRAE: Madame Chair, members of 21 the Commission, ladies and gentlemen. 22 1112 My name is Scott MacRae, I'm a 23 communications consultant and was recently Director of 24 Communications at the City of Vancouver. Prior to 25 that, I worked in as a print media journalist in StenoTran 273 1 Vancouver for 20 years. 2 1113 My perspective on third language and 3 ethnic programming is a mainstream one, English is my 4 only language and so my remarks are from a very 5 personal viewpoint. 6 1114 While I was at the City of Vancouver, 7 I had the opportunity to work with a variety of ethnic 8 news media in our region. My knowledge was very low 9 when I began to survey local media, ethnic media, five 10 years ago. I think my ignorance was probably typical 11 of both mainstream people in general and mainstream 12 media people in particular. I think things have 13 changed. 14 1115 What I've seen over the last half 15 dozen years is a thriving and vital ethnic news media 16 that, to address why we're here this evening, the 17 region's television menu simply doesn't reflect. 18 Perhaps Commissioners already know a little about the 19 fortunes of the dominant ethnic media in the region, 20 the Chinese language press. 21 1116 Here we have three large overseas 22 chains printing daily newspapers with local content in 23 the Lower Mainland. Two of these chains have made 24 major capital investments in state-of-the-art printing 25 plants with full colour capability. The mainstream StenoTran 274 1 daily press here hasn't seen this diversity of 2 viewpoints for decades. 3 1117 The effects of Chinese print media 4 are equally remarkable. I'd like to mention two of 5 them that I saw. One of them affects is involving 6 newcomers to Canada and also the effects that this 7 increasingly visible media have on the mainstream 8 community. 9 1118 I have to say that I've been 10 impressed with the task that Chinese language reporters 11 and editors have set themselves and how seriously they 12 perform that task. 13 1119 Again, from my own personal 14 experience, if you go to a City Council meeting in the 15 City of Vancouver on a Tuesday afternoon, take a look 16 over at the press table, often there are more 17 representatives from the Chinese media than from the 18 mainstream media. Why? Well, if you ask Chinese 19 language reporters, they'll tell you it's because their 20 readers, many of whom are newcomers, have a real 21 interest in what's going on in the community they chose 22 to live in. This can hardly be a surprise. 23 1120 I recall being a guest on a Chinese 24 language radio call-in program, the topic was property 25 taxes. Hardly a sexy subject. Yet the lines were StenoTran 275 1 jammed with hard incisive questions from highly 2 knowledgeable members of the audience. Even a 3 non-Chinese speaker could relate the level of interest 4 to the Chinese language media coverage. It's all those 5 reporters showing up on Tuesday afternoons. 6 1121 How could I know what's being written 7 in the Chinese language media if I don't speak Chinese? 8 Well, the City of Vancouver translates all Chinese 9 newspaper stories about its activities, and from my 10 reading of those translations, it's clear that the 11 major City government issues are covered in a very 12 professional way. 13 1122 In some cases, the Chinese press 14 coverage is more comprehensive than that of the 15 mainstream media. Chinese print media has reached 16 something of a critical mass in the Lower Mainland in 17 some ways. If you go into a suburban shopping mall, 18 you'll see stacks of "Ming Pow" and "Sing Tso" next to 19 the Sun and the Province and other mainstream 20 newspapers. If you go to a major news event in town, 21 you'll see Chinese reporters standing next to their 22 mainstream counterparts. 23 1123 And I think because of this kind of 24 critical mass, we're starting to get an interplay 25 between the Chinese language and the mainstream media. StenoTran 276 1 And this interplay is sort of inevitably leads to 2 dialogue. 3 1124 For example, a few years ago, it may 4 have been two or three years ago, I'm not sure when, 5 Ming Pow ran a story about mainstream perceptions of 6 the Chinese community. Thorny issues were raised about 7 how one culture's good manners could be questionable to 8 another culture. The issue was hotly debated in the 9 Chinese community and the debate spilled over into the 10 pages of the Vancouver Sun. 11 1125 Not long afterward and in no way 12 related to the above, racist graffiti incidents that 13 had alluded mainstream media scrutiny were extensively 14 reported in the Chinese press. To the extent that they 15 were eventually brought to the mainstream media's 16 attention. 17 1126 Nowadays, and Gabriel has more than 18 hinted at this, that the Vancouver Sun runs regular 19 ethnic press digests and translated letters to the 20 editor of Ming Pow. These activities promote cultural 21 harmony by opening a media window into communities, 22 their concerns, their issues, their leaders and so on. 23 And really validate the need for media diversity. 24 1127 For several years now, Chinese 25 reporters have offered their best work for judging in StenoTran 277 1 the Jack Webster Work Journalism Awards. These awards 2 are, of course, named after another newcomer to Canada 3 from an earlier wave of immigration. 4 1128 The Chinese community, although the 5 largest, isn't by the only means the -- isn't by any 6 means, the only ethnic community well-served by its 7 media. The East Asian community boasts a number of 8 publications in English and other languages, including 9 a high quality monthly magazine, "Mephil" (ph), that is 10 as well produced, topical and relevant as any 11 periodical on today's newsstands. 12 1129 As well, Spanish, Vietnamese, and 13 many other ethnic publications testify to their 14 richness of our cultural diversity and the immensely 15 valuable role that media play in the lives of newcomers 16 to Canadian society. 17 1130 Print is not the only media outlet, 18 of course. On the broadcast side, two stations on the 19 AM band broadcast in Chinese and other non-English 20 languages. There's also, of course, Rogers 21 multicultural channel, Chinese language Pay TV, ethnic 22 broadcasting on co-op radio and Indo-Canadian Pay 23 radio. 24 1131 But these media, while holding 25 obvious value, are all but invisible to the mainstream StenoTran 278 1 because they're absent from the main section of the TV 2 broadcast menu. 3 1132 Given television's dominant cultural 4 role, a channel surfer from another planet or for that 5 matter, from another country, would easily conclude 6 that there isn't very much cultural richness in the 7 Lower Mainland. How wrong that would be. 8 1133 Thank you. 9 1134 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 10 MacRae. 11 1135 THE SECRETARY: I'd like to invite 12 James Chung to present now, please. 13 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 14 1136 MR. CHUNG: Madame Chair, members of 15 the Commission, ladies and gentlemen. 16 1137 Good evening. My name is James 17 Chung, and I'm a first generation Canadian-born 18 Chinese. I've been a practising artist and musician 19 for over ten years and as a part of that, I'm very 20 media conscious. I've also lived in many different 21 places in Canada, not just in the Lower Mainland and 22 not just in B.C., but in different provinces. 23 1138 I'm sure you can imagine what it's 24 like to be a kid going to a new school for the first 25 time, even if you haven't experienced it yourself. StenoTran 279 1 There's that sense of alienation from not knowing 2 anyone and not being part of a social group like all 3 the other kids. Not only are you alone, but you're 4 also acutely aware that everyone else is checking you 5 out as if you just landed from Mars. 6 1139 However, once you become integrated 7 that sense of alienation disappears. By then you've 8 become an accepted part of the social fabric and you no 9 longer stand out as being new. 10 1140 But what if you can't integrate? For 11 the scarce few who are visible minorities living 12 outside of the major cities in Canada, this is a 13 reality. In rural or small town Canada, there is very 14 little, if any sense, that Canada is a multicultural 15 society. In rural and small town Canada, traditional 16 white culture is so completely dominant that any ethnic 17 culture is considered as "foreign" culture and not part 18 of Canada. In rural and small town Canada, traditional 19 white culture is defined as normal and anything outside 20 of that is weird, bizarre, strange or perhaps worse. 21 1141 I wasn't born in a small town. My 22 family moved to the Okanagan Valley when I was 12. In 23 a town with a population of over 10,000, you could 24 count the number of Chinese families with your fingers. 25 In my school which had over 700 students, there were StenoTran 280 1 only two other Chinese students, aside from my brother 2 and myself and maybe three or four other students who 3 were of colour. Everyone else was white. 4 1142 I will concede that in general, 5 people were racially tolerant there. However, 6 tolerance is not the same as acceptance. In my 7 experience, people from visible minorities have three 8 options to deal with the realities of living in small 9 town or rural Canada. 10 1143 My brother, like many others have, 11 did his best to gain acceptance into the white 12 mainstream society through assimilation, which is not 13 the same as integration. In order to fit the 14 mainstream's demand to be normal, he abandoned his 15 cultural heritage in favour of the dominant white 16 culture. As a result, he no longer has any connection 17 with his ethnic roots. He's Chinese only in terms of 18 his bloodlines. 19 1144 The second option for visible 20 minorities in rural or small communities is to fit the 21 stereotype that people expect. The other Chinese 22 students in my school did exactly that, they were the 23 quiet, meek, overly-studious nerds that white people 24 expected them to be. 25 1145 Neither of those options were StenoTran 281 1 acceptable to me. What I wanted was the ability or 2 right to embrace my culture without being stereotyped 3 or be trapped in its own traditions. I wanted to be 4 Chinese within the modern Canadian context, but without 5 any kind of blueprint or role model of what that might 6 entail, it took me years of conflict and struggle to 7 arrive at a healthy conclusion. 8 1146 You might be wondering what all this 9 has to do with Ethnic Broadcasting Policy. While there 10 is some ethnocultural access to broadcast media in our 11 major cities, there is none outside of them. This has 12 two effects. First, it deprives ethnocultural 13 minorities in the rural or small communities of any 14 contact with their own culture. And secondly, the 15 white majorities who live in these communities only see 16 how the mainstream media presents visible minorities, 17 which, quite frankly, does not often show us in a 18 favourable or realistic light, if they show us at all. 19 1147 Mainstream media, in fact, 20 perpetuates the myth that to be a normal Canadian means 21 being white, even if your skin isn't. In small towns, 22 particularly in the case of young people, not being 23 normal can mean social alienation. But if being normal 24 comes with the cost of abandoning one's cultural 25 heritage the way my brother did, it's too high a price StenoTran 282 1 to pay in my opinion. 2 1148 Neither should visible minorities 3 feel that the only alternative is to assume the 4 stereotypical role that my schoolmates did. In doing 5 so, they marginalized themselves. If the mainstream 6 media continues its portrayal of ethnocultural 7 minorities with convenient stereotypes, those 8 stereotypes not only reinforce themselves among whites, 9 but also among members of their own cultures, as well. 10 1149 The stereotypical Chinese youth 11 portrayed in the mainstream media is either the geek or 12 the gangster. Neither could be consider positive or 13 realistic images of the kinds of choices that should be 14 open to Chinese youth. 15 1150 If my experience is at all similar to 16 others in the same circumstance, ethnic youth living in 17 smaller towns are presented a choice by the dominant 18 society: be like them or be like they expect you to be. 19 I don't think it should be necessary to have to make 20 such a choice. 21 1151 It is in my opinion that there needs 22 to be an improvement in the way ethnocultural 23 minorities living within smaller rural communities in 24 Canada are served. The population of these groups are 25 often too small to generate the necessary demand for StenoTran 283 1 their own programming, even within their own community 2 cable channel. 3 1152 Without some form of cultural 4 representation within the broadcast media, not only are 5 the ethnocultural minorities themselves deprived of 6 their own culture, but it cuts off an avenue of 7 communication between the minorities and the white 8 majority. 9 1153 I'd also like to comment that 10 although there are some ethnocultural programming 11 available in our cities, all of that ethnocultural 12 programming exists in a media ghetto of volunteer 13 powered radio and television programs on channels or 14 stations only a very small number pay attention to. 15 1154 What I'd like to see are some changes 16 that would affect the mainstream media's representation 17 of ethnocultural minorities since that is where the 18 social mainstream gets most of their information. 19 1155 This is especially important outside 20 of the major population centres where the mainstream 21 media is the only easily accessible source of 22 information. If Canada's truly supposed to be 23 multicultural, I think that the mainstream media should 24 reflect that, otherwise rural and small town Canada 25 will continue to consider ethnocultural minorities as StenoTran 284 1 un-Canadian. 2 1156 Thank you. 3 1157 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 4 Chung. I think Commissioner Cardozo has a question. 5 1158 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks, 6 Commissioner Grauer. 7 1159 I just want to ask about -- I've been 8 doing a bit of an unscientific survey on the issue 9 you're raising. And I appreciate your bringing the 10 concerns of rural communities, because we've been 11 focusing our hearings in the larger urban centres and 12 certainly it's open to people to write in, but 13 invariably, I think we might hear from more people in 14 larger cities. 15 1160 When we had a hearing about two or 16 three months ago on Canadian programming, we were 17 looking at a number of issues about Canadian 18 programming on television, more at the so-called 19 mainstream media and one of the questions we were 20 asking and one of the issues you're raising was to what 21 degree people were satisfied with how the mainstream 22 media programming reflected the diversity. And one of 23 the Intervenors was the Chinese Canadian National 24 Council and when we asked them about the representation 25 of Asians, Chinese Canadians, in programming, this one StenoTran 285 1 person thought that the last time they had been a 2 character in a program of Chinese or Asian descent was 3 back in Degrassi Junior High, which is program that 4 hasn't run in -- it's still running now, but it hasn't 5 been produced in ten years. 6 1161 And I'm wondering if you're aware of 7 any other programs that have, as regular characters, 8 Chinese Canadians or other South East Asians. I -- 9 you, go ahead. 10 1162 MR. CHUNG: I haven't actually -- I 11 hate to say it, but I watch a lot of TV, and -- 12 1163 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, then you 13 can probably answer my question -- 14 1164 MR. CHUNG: Yeah. And the thing is, 15 I -- to my knowledge, there isn't a recurring character 16 of Asian descent that I've seen in recent memory. 17 1165 MS CHUN: There was a Vietnamese 18 character on 21 Jump Street. 19 1166 MR. CHUNG: Yeah, but Chun, my 20 neighbour next to me, mentioned there was a Vietnamese 21 character on 21 Jump Street, but again, that's also 22 from many years ago. But since then, no, not to my 23 knowledge. 24 1167 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, it was 25 interesting, I was looking at some programs recently StenoTran 286 1 and just counting stuff like that. And when DaVinci's 2 Inquest started, they had a reference on the first 3 night, the only non-white person or reference to a 4 person of non-white was referred to as an Aboriginal 5 woman who turned out to be dead because she was a 6 prostitute on drugs. 7 1168 You know, it's not sort of something 8 that we just talk about, it happens. And a few 9 episodes later, there was a portrayal of an Asian 10 person who was serving soup in a Chinese restaurant and 11 she was on for about two to three seconds, I would 12 think. So there's not -- even though DaVinci's Inquest 13 is filmed here in Vancouver, whereas people repeatedly 14 told us, there's a very large Asian population, it 15 doesn't seem to - 16 1169 MR. CHUNG: Yeah. The last time I 17 actually saw Chinese people on TV in recent memory was 18 an episode of Millennium. But again, it was back -- we 19 were stereotyped again as gangsters, you know, 20 basically we were heroine dealers and people associated 21 with that trade. And since then, that's the last time 22 I've seen any real major role for Asian people on TV. 23 1170 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Thanks 24 very much. 25 1171 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. StenoTran 287 1 1172 MR. YIU: Sorry, if I can join, too, 2 a little bit. 3 1173 Actually, in nowadays American 4 television, there are more Asian or Chinese American 5 roles, say Ally McBeal, is very popular in Vancouver, 6 it has, well, a controversial, obvious Chinese American 7 woman. And also, on Saturday night, ABC channel, they 8 have -- I forgot the name, it's a director from Hong 9 Kong and also it's a -- the actor is called Samuel 10 Hong, it's about Kung Fu. 11 1174 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Marshal Law. 12 1175 MR. YIU: Yeah, Marshal Law, it's 13 also another recent episode -- sitcom from -- made in 14 Hollywood, has quite prominent Chinese American figures 15 there. 16 1176 But I don't see similar thing happens 17 in Canada. 18 1177 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 19 1178 THE SECRETARY: I'd like to invite 20 Nathan Cho to make his presentation now, please. 21 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 22 1179 MR. CHO: I don't speak English very 23 well, so I just read what I wrote and I go ahead. 24 1180 My name is Nathan Cho and I'm 25 providing Korean programming on Rogers multicultural StenoTran 288 1 channel and on a Specialty Pay TV Talentvision. Over 2 the past four years, I have been using these two 3 channels to serve the needs of the Korean community in 4 the Lower Mainland. 5 1181 Among many issues that your 6 Commissioners put forward for public consultation 7 today, I would like to talk about three issues which 8 have a high degree of relevance to my current business 9 experience. 10 1182 First of all, I would like to talk 11 about how to nurture Canadian content in ethnic 12 programming. I agree that it is better to have 13 Canadian produced ethnic programs than programs 14 imported from foreign sources. About two months ago, I 15 wanted to launch a Korean language local news in 16 Vancouver in order to let my viewers know what is 17 developing in Canada. I planned to divide the news 18 into two segments: news developing in the Korean 19 community in Vancouver and news happening in the 20 mainstream society. 21 1183 For the mainstream portion of the 22 news, I found it very hard and costly to cover it 23 without assistance from other conventional 24 broadcasters. So I approached BCTV for a sharing of 25 their news footage. I wanted to use their news footage StenoTran 289 1 with Korean voice-overs on the Rogers multicultural 2 channel. (I have done the same on Talentvision for the 3 last three months and have watched the overwhelming 4 responses from the viewers). But BCTV management 5 replied back with negative answers. Maybe they thought 6 that Rogers multicultural channel is one of their 7 competitors, I really don't know. In order to see that 8 new immigrants integrate into Canadian society, we need 9 to inform them about what's happening in Canada. 10 1184 In other words, local news is good 11 for them and moreover, it is a Canadian content 12 program. But it seems that other conventional TV 13 broadcasters are reluctant to give us a help. 14 1185 I am going to knock at the CBC in the 15 coming weeks to see if I can use their news footage. 16 To nurture Canadian content programming, small ethnic 17 producers like me find it difficult to get financial 18 resources. If other conventional TV broadcasters are 19 at least willing to share their news footage with us 20 free of charge, we will be more equipped to carry out 21 Canadian content programming. 22 1186 Secondly, I would like to talk about 23 cross-subsidization that is being practised by a 24 Toronto multilingual television station. Some might 25 believe that some ethnic communities simply do not have StenoTran 290 1 the market forces to make their ethnic programming 2 feasible. 3 1187 In several paragraphs of CRTC's 4 Public Notice 1998-135, the CRTC implied that this 5 Toronto station had to resort to revenues from the 40 6 percent mainstream programming in their schedules in 7 order to allow small ethnic communities to have their 8 share of programming. Well, that is a myth. I have 9 provided reasonably high quality Korean programming to 10 the Korean community whose population in Lower Mainland 11 is only about 30,000, and I did not need a subsidy of 12 any kind. 13 1188 Why not allow competent independent 14 producers to carry out their ethnic programming at 15 their own cost. Any future multilingual station should 16 allot time blocks to each competent ethnic producer, 17 and revenues generated from the commercial spots in 18 these time blocks should be taken by the producer for 19 the expenses that he incurred. 20 1189 Finally, I would like to talk about a 21 measure of protection for existing ethnic station. If 22 your Commissioners are thinking about launching a new 23 multilingual station in Vancouver, it is a good idea 24 but may have to make a provision for protection for 25 existing ethnic programming like mine. StenoTran 291 1 1190 A lot of viewers watch my programs on 2 Pay TV channel Talentvision do not want to pay the 3 subscription fees, (they say, "Can we get rid of the 4 scrambling device that is in place?"). The Korean 5 viewers watching my programming on Rogers multicultural 6 channel, which is a special programming, complain about 7 the small number of hours of Korean programming on that 8 channel. Therefore, a new multilingual TV station 9 delivering a sufficient amount of Korean programming 10 free over the air is highly in demand. However, I 11 would like the Commissioners to take cautions in view 12 of my case, and take steps to maintain a balance 13 between current Specialty channels and any multilingual 14 stations that may be launched in the future. 15 1191 One of the ways to clear up my 16 business dilemma might be that this new multilingual 17 programming station absorbed my current programming on 18 the Rogers multicultural channel and Talentvision. 19 1192 Thank you very much for listening to 20 my presentation. And thanks a lot for coming to 21 Vancouver. 22 1193 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 23 much. 24 1194 THE SECRETARY: Our next presenter 25 this evening is Mohammed Janief. StenoTran 292 1 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 2 1195 MR. JANIEF: Madame Chair, members of 3 the Panel, ladies and gentlemen. 4 1196 Good evening. My name is Janief 5 Mohammed. I've been here for about 15 years. I'm an 6 accountant, I practice accounting and income taxes. 7 1197 First of all, I'd like to thank the 8 Commission and the Panel members for taking their time 9 out in listening to the public. 10 1198 As you have heard from all the other 11 members who have presented this evening, there is a cry 12 for more access. And I'm also here saying, yes, we do 13 need more access. 14 1199 There's a variety of reasons why we 15 need access. I'll go into detail a little bit as we go 16 along. 17 1200 If you look at me right now, I'm a 18 Muslim who was born in Fiji, I came here about 15 years 19 ago. When I look at the TV, whatever -- I hardly see 20 any coverage of Muslims. It's not that I want it, we 21 need it. We need it because we need to preserve our 22 heritage and culture. My kids are growing up, unless I 23 expose them to what my heritage and culture is it would 24 be lost. 25 2000 StenoTran 293 1 1201 Let me give you an example, I'm a 2 fifth generation. My forefathers came from India to 3 work on the sugar cane of Fiji -- sugar cane farms in 4 Fiji Islands. When their time as, I mentioned, 5 labourers was over, they decided to stay back and make 6 Fiji their home. In doing so, what they did is they 7 preserved their culture. This is why -- the only 8 reason why I am a Muslim today. I'd have been lost -- 9 I would have never been able to speak the language my 10 parents, my forefathers spoke. 11 1202 This is the reason why we need to 12 preserve our culture and heritage, otherwise our time 13 will come, we don't know who we are and where we came 14 from. 15 1203 The other issue is the kids are 16 growing up and they have to be brought in an 17 environment so that they know how and what is 18 appropriate for them. By sharing culture and tradition 19 with other communities and other ethnic groups, you 20 will learn tolerance and acceptance. 21 1204 Sometimes I watch Chinese television. 22 They're playing movies. I don't understand their 23 language, yet I see it's -- and I find it interesting. 24 But unless we interact with one another, we won't be 25 able to tolerate and accept other groups of people who StenoTran 294 1 live in Canada. 2 1205 Canada is a multiracial country, a 3 truly multiracial. But the only way we can live in 4 peace and harmony is by learning to live the other 5 sides culture and tradition. 6 1206 Recently we went through Ramadan. 7 Ramadan is one of the founding pillars of Islam, which 8 is so important for us. And one of the complaints I 9 have is that the 30 days went by, there was hardly any 10 coverage on TV about Ramadan. There was some talk 11 about it on CKNW and on the "Id" (ph) Day, the day of 12 the fasting and the prayer, there was some coverage in 13 Vancouver Sun, which I appreciate. But I think the 14 coverage wasn't enough. 15 1207 It's not that I want the coverage, it 16 makes me feel proud. Yes, I'm in a country where I'm 17 accepted, my religion and culture has been accepted. 18 So others can know about it, what Muslim is. Why did 19 these guys fast? What's the reason behind it? 20 1208 In conclusion, I would like to say 21 there is a need or there is room that maybe the CRTC 22 should think about in ways and means of opening other 23 channels so there is more room where other groups can 24 have access to this type of channels to present 25 their -- to present their culture and probably share StenoTran 295 1 the heritage with other groups of people. How it can 2 be done, I don't know, which is why, I guess, you 3 occupy these big posts. 4 1209 But the access has to be in prime 5 time. There is no use in giving a community a time at 6 twelve o'clock midnight or five o'clock in the morning, 7 that's no good. I know all of us, we want access. How 8 it can be done, I don't know, but the suggestion is 9 that somehow everybody should have access to prime 10 time, by rotation or whatever means, so that we all 11 feel, yes, we are being treated fairly. Fairness is 12 important and just to everybody. 13 1210 The programming content has to be at 14 professional levels. Sometimes I watch this 15 multicultural channel and it's -- the quality is poor, 16 especially if you look at, like, major TV stations, 17 CBC, NBC, ABC, they're done professional -- 18 professionally, there reason being is they compete with 19 the other stations to maintain their status as number 20 one. 21 1211 So at the same token, we should 22 not -- we should maintain an element of 23 professionalism, too. You cannot say, "Oh, here's your 24 channel, do some programming", present this side or 25 that side of the story and most of the time, I think StenoTran 296 1 and I see is we import a drama from another country and 2 play it in here, which is not appropriate. We need 3 coverage of what is going on in Canada and how we can 4 relate and live here and get locally produced stuff. 5 1212 As a last remark, I think new 6 channels should be added on and there's a need for why 7 we, as Muslims, we need. I mean, if someone looks at 8 me and they say -- naturally, the first thing comes to 9 this guy is "He's East Indian", which is probably 10 right, I am East Indian. But on the other side of the 11 coin, I'm not only East Indian, I am a Muslim, too. My 12 religion, my heritage is very important to me and so it 13 be for my children. 14 1213 As a last resort, the only way you 15 can preserve your religion and your heritage is by 16 maintaining it and practising it. To keep on doing 17 that and to expose it to other people, you need access 18 and the only way access is is by television and other 19 news media. Television is one of the most -- is the 20 best means to pass on or convey a message. Nobody 21 wants to read. 22 1214 The new -- which is true. I used to 23 read books like one book every day -- a week when I was 24 in high school, today I hardly do so. I'd rather watch 25 TV. StenoTran 297 1 1215 Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very 2 much for your time. 3 1216 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 4 much. I believe that Commissioner Cardozo has a 5 question. 6 1217 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yeah, I have a 7 tough question for you, especially because you said you 8 don't know how to fix the issue. 9 1218 What you and a number of people have 10 talked about today is the issue of portrayal -- fair 11 portrayal of Muslims or of other communities or of our 12 diversity. And you've raised the issue of better 13 access on the multicultural channel and this proceeding 14 that we're having today is really about the ethnic 15 media. 16 1219 But part of it is, if it all happens 17 in the multicultural channel and as you've mentioned, 18 you've talked about quality, yesterday Mobina Jaffer 19 talked about concerns around quality. If people don't 20 watch the multicultural channel because the quality is 21 not good or because it's in various languages and they 22 may be unilingual and they don't feel they're going to 23 get a kick out of that channel, so they tend not to 24 tune in there, then what have you accomplished by 25 getting your access on there? StenoTran 298 1 1220 Do you need to have both the 2 portrayal on other channels -- which is more important, 3 the portrayal in all the other 50 channels or better 4 access on this one or is it both? 5 1221 MR. JANIEF: I think both. It's -- 6 the more the better. 7 1222 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Right. 8 1223 MR. JANIEF: Once you get access to 9 it, they say practice makes perfect. Unless you have 10 access to it, you cannot practice to improve it. Right 11 now we don't have access to it. When you look at other 12 people and criticize and all of a sudden you're doing 13 something wrong, you want to go back and correct it, 14 improve it. 15 1224 I think access is the main thing at 16 the moment. Unless we have access, you cannot bring in 17 professionalism and improve it, improve the content. 18 1225 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So are you 19 saying that the multicultural channel becomes a 20 training ground to get that professional -- 21 1226 MR. JANIEF: I don't know. I'm sure 22 there are professional people in this area who know how 23 to do programming and how to present programs. I'm 24 just a layman accountant -- 25 1227 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: No, that's why StenoTran 299 1 I'm asking you the questions. 2 1228 MR. JANIEF: I think it would not be 3 right to say we use the multicultural channel as a 4 training ground and get an access, which is kind of, 5 probably selfish and greedy, right. I mean, if you 6 want to do something right, let's do it right from the 7 beginning, rather than take advantage of something here 8 and then go on to something else. That's my 9 philosophy. 10 1229 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Thanks 11 very much. Thanks Commissioner Grauer. 12 1230 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 13 1231 MS PHAM: Could I just make a 14 comment? I'm not sure if -- 15 1232 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 16 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 17 1233 MS PHAM: -- might dig something out 18 of, you know, that -- I was just -- I had a point, 19 actually regarding what you've brought up during my 20 presentation and I completely forgot about it because I 21 wrote it in the margin. 22 1234 And that has to do with the 23 multicultural channel. It's interesting that every 24 time -- 25 1235 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I think you're StenoTran 300 1 blessed. 2 --- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques 3 --- Laughter / Rires 4 1236 MS PHAM: Yeah. So anyhow, I wanted 5 to make a comment regarding the existence of a 6 multicultural channel and how that serves multicultural 7 communities in Canada. 8 1237 And I think that it's very 9 understandable that as the first step, when we, as a 10 political movement, that when we first mobilized then 11 it's understandable that we have our own kind of medium 12 or our own space to carry out our work. But I think 13 that eventually as we become more sophisticated in 14 terms of how we want to reach our audience, that 15 eventually we want not to have something that is 16 multicultural only, designated as multicultural, but I 17 think probably eventually we will want to move into 18 more mainstream outlets. 19 1238 And that's when things get really 20 exciting, I think, because then we achieve some sort 21 of -- because only then can we achieve equal status. 22 1239 I've often been concerned that having 23 a multicultural channel or station, while that's really 24 important, it somehow -- it seems to me that it may 25 just be a kind of a token -- a token action. And so I StenoTran 301 1 think that it's not enough just to have that, I think 2 eventually we should be ambitious and think big and go 3 wherever we can. 4 1240 Thank you. 5 1241 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 6 1242 THE SECRETARY: We have one more 7 presenter for this panel before we break. I'd ask Rena 8 Heer to make her presentation. 9 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 10 1243 MS HEER: Hi. Actually, we're sort 11 of a partnership here, so... Atish is supposed to 12 speak before me. So would you do that? Thanks. 13 1244 We're going to keep it really short, 14 though. 15 1245 MR. RAM: My name is Atish Ram, I'm a 16 producer on a television show called "Zindagi" (ph) on 17 the Rogers multicultural channel. 18 1246 I, as well as my friends, have -- 19 came from the Fiji Islands, Islands of Fiji, 30 years 20 ago as a child. Growing up here in Vancouver, I was 21 caught between two cultures, one holding on to my 22 heritage of what I've learned as an individual or a 23 small child in Fiji, as well as adapting to the new -- 24 my new home in Canada. 25 1247 Growing up I realized that there was StenoTran 302 1 a communication gap and there was a generation gap with 2 the elders as well as the new Canadians that were born 3 here. And I found that there was a very -- a need to 4 put a programming on television that not only 5 recognized our culture, but also taught us and our 6 elders the way of life in Vancouver or in Canada. 7 1248 It was a very -- it was a big 8 struggle, because when I started developing this 9 program, there was other programs that were already in 10 place, and I think the CRTC regulations or the 11 multicultural channel regulations at that time was that 12 they would only allow a certain amount of hours or -- 13 to a specific ethnic group based on the population. 14 For example, when I went to apply for a Fijian program, 15 they said that there was already a couple of Fijian 16 programs that were already in place, so therefore 17 there's only 10,000, 15,000 Fijian people, so therefore 18 they would not allow another half hour programming. 19 1249 Two and a half year battle with 20 Rogers multicultural channel, I developed another show, 21 called "Zindagi". "Zindagi" means life. And I wanted 22 to do this show based on -- this program based on the 23 entire community at large, South Asian community in 24 particular, but since the program has hit the airways, 25 we've had many ethnic groups, such as Chinese, Italian, StenoTran 303 1 Iranian, even the Caucasian people watching this 2 program, mainly because the entire program is done in 3 English. 4 1250 And because I chose to do this in 5 English, because I wanted to not only highlight and 6 profile prominent members of the community and show the 7 community in Vancouver that we're not the stereotyped, 8 you know, taxi drivers or cab drivers that we get 9 perceived to be, but we are also doctors, lawyers, 10 journalists and what have you. 11 1251 This entire program is funded by 12 myself. I have invested approximately $80,000 of my 13 own money into purchasing equipment. Equipment that is 14 20 years old. I've also volunteer, as well as have 15 volunteers who are aspiring and perspiring journalists 16 who plan to be a journalist in the instrument of 17 television, and they're a wonderful group of people. 18 1252 This is a totally non-funded -- I 19 mean, non-profit organization. We cover things such as 20 breast cancer, alcoholism, spousal abuse, AIDS, 21 homosexuality, things that have never, ever been 22 touched in our ethnic community, which is a taboo in 23 our ethnic community. We are showing that and voicing 24 it through our youth and saying our elders that this 25 exists, let's wake up and smell the coffee. StenoTran 304 1 1253 On the other hand, we're also 2 reviewing Indian movies, as well as Indian CDs to bring 3 in music forth in this program to also educate our 4 youngsters that this is also our culture and our 5 heritage, as well. 6 1254 I guess they want us out of here, 7 right? 8 --- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques 9 1255 MR. RAM: Since it's inception in 10 1997, the show has grown dramatically. We still 11 maintain to keep it half hour time slot. We would like 12 to go mainstream, we'd like to go further, we'd like to 13 expand our show more. However, lack of funding is one 14 of the things, and of course, time is the other thing. 15 1256 It takes approximately 40 to 60 hours 16 a week to produce this one half hour show every week of 17 volunteer time. I have a crew of 15 people, as well as 18 myself. And what I also do is also with my experience 19 in television and film for the last 20 years, I give an 20 opportunity to the youth to come in and learn with me 21 and to -- also what we do is the entire profits of this 22 program is donated to Children's Hospital. We work 23 together with the Children's Hospital Foundation, as 24 well as the Willingdon Youth Detention Centre. 25 1257 The girls, the people, the youth that StenoTran 305 1 are on my program periodically go to Children's 2 Hospital and work with the little children to learn 3 about their lives, because I -- and also to the 4 Willingdon Youth Detention Centre to talk to or to 5 present their views and just to sit and chat with the 6 delinquent kids that are spending time there. 7 1258 In return, they gain vast knowledge, 8 and through this program, they -- not only do we show 9 the community, the public -- I mean, the television 10 viewing audience what we're all about, but we also 11 train the individuals that are in this program. 12 1259 And Rena here is one of the hosts 13 that's on the show and she would like to talk about 14 mainly what is "Zindagi" has done for her life. 15 1260 MS HEER: Hi everyone. I'm a 22-year 16 old SFU almost-grad. And the reason I am working with 17 "Zindagi" is because I have an interest in 18 broadcasting, but moreover, my interest initially was 19 in South Asian culture. 20 1261 I grew up, for the first 18 years of 21 my life, I grew up in Clearwater, B.C., which I know 22 nobody really has heard of, and -- 23 1262 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have. 24 1263 MS HEER: Oh, excellent. That's 25 awesome. Wow! I'm so impressed. StenoTran 306 1 1264 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, good. 2 --- Laughter / Rires 3 1265 MS HEER: And we had two television 4 stations. We had BCTV and we had the CBC. And BCTV 5 was very fuzzy, so all we had was the CBC. 6 1266 And we got about half an hour of 7 television every single night. So most of my time that 8 I spent with entertainment was sort of, like, the 9 reading type of entertainment and thank God for that. 10 1267 But, when I moved to Vancouver and I 11 watched the multicultural channel, I was so overwhelmed 12 and so surprised and so happy because people like me 13 were on TV. And some of the time they were presenting 14 things that I really needed to see, the things that I 15 could really connect with. And that really encouraged 16 me as a young 18-year old who, even though I came from 17 a community where 15 percent of the population was 18 South Asian, we were a relatively unacknowledged type 19 of -- unacknowledged community. 20 1268 So first of all, I'd like to say 21 that, that even anything is progressive and what we 22 have here is really, truly, when we look at other parts 23 of the world or when we look at the rest of North 24 America, is wonderful. 25 1269 We can still go forward, there's a StenoTran 307 1 lot to do, but what we have here is wonderful and it 2 can be built upon and I am optimistic about what the 3 future of ethnic broadcasting holds for us here in B.C. 4 or in the Lower Mainland, for sure. 5 1270 Specifically, I want to talk about 6 "Zindagi", really quickly. And what I want to say 7 about "Zindagi" is it's not just a forum for me 8 personally to express how I feel about my culture or 9 what my culture is about, but it's also an opportunity. 10 It's an opportunity to gain some confidence in my 11 abilities as a reporter/journalist. It's an 12 opportunity to get into the South Asian community and 13 learn about what really impacts everybody else. And 14 it's also an opportunity, as self-serving as this might 15 sound, is to tell people exactly what I think about 16 anything. 17 1271 But also, "Zindagi" is not just us 18 getting up on camera and saying, "Look, you know, 19 here's another brown face on TV. Rah!", it's about 20 learning and imparting values and sharing with each 21 other. We learn -- we've got -- we learn about 22 friendship and teamwork. We're a team of 15 people, we 23 work together, and we try to make things happen. We've 24 gotten involved in the community so that we're not 25 thinking that everybody must be like me and I'm Punjabi StenoTran 308 1 speaking, I'm Sikh and everything else, but that's 2 Gujarati people out there and there's people who are 3 Hindu and people who are Muslim and within Muslims you 4 have people who come from Fiji, you have people who 5 come from India, you have people who come from 6 Pakistan. 7 1272 So it's really a lesson for all of 8 us, even though, you know, we are South Asian, but we 9 don't profess to know it all and we're learning about 10 each other. And what we're trying to do is provide a 11 representative face for all South Asians and not try to 12 be too Punjabi-centric, because Punjabis are -- Punjabi 13 speaking people do make up the bulk of the South Asian 14 community in Vancouver. 15 1273 So it's -- when we first came to 16 "Zindagi" most of us got a two-hour speech from Atish 17 and what he told us is, "Listen, Zindagi is your 18 opportunity. You have certain commitments to the 19 community, you've got to put in your time, you've got 20 to help people out where you can. You've got to get 21 involved with me in Children's Hospital and the 22 Willingdon Youth Detention Centre", he goes, "But it's 23 your opportunity. You can do so much with this. 24 You're going to get exposure in the community. You'll 25 be able to -- if you think you're right somewhere, StenoTran 309 1 you'll be able to tell people that and say, yeah, I'm 2 on TV so I'm right". Just kidding, it doesn't really 3 happen. 4 1274 But it's really -- it's excellent for 5 someone like me who was 21 when she joined the show and 6 thought, "Hey, you know, I'd love to be on VTV, but how 7 am I going to get there? And do I have what it takes? 8 Or do I know what I'm doing or where I'm going?" So 9 even though I pursue my career in information 10 technology in the daytime, I go over to Atish's studio 11 later on and try to pursue this other dream that I 12 have. 13 1275 And most of the girls on our show, 14 and we're predominantly girls, and I don't know why, 15 but most of us, we're just avid learners and we're 16 hopeful about what the Lower Mainland holds for us, 17 because, you know, most of us have come from smaller 18 communities. We have a couple of girls from Nanaimo 19 and two of us are from Clearwater -- go figure that 20 out -- and to most of are just very hopeful and very 21 wanting to make a contribution. 22 1276 And wanting, ultimately, to be in the 23 mainstream to see the mainstream community and the 24 ethnic community sort of integrated and working 25 together so there's not so much of that sort of -- that StenoTran 310 1 divide that's holding us onto this multicultural 2 channel and reaching out to only South Asian youth, but 3 instead, sort of becoming integrated and being able to 4 tell people what we're about. 5 1277 I had the opportunity to appear on 6 Global Television for a few seconds, and it was great, 7 because even though the issue was the tables and chairs 8 issue, which we're all sick of, in the Sikh community 9 it still gave me the opportunity to be recognized as 10 someone who had a valid opinion and able to maybe make 11 some remarks that had some validity and have all of -- 12 have everybody in the Lower Mainland hear about what I 13 thought. 14 1278 And to be able to understand that 15 people are recognizing us and saying, "Oh, these are 16 people that have something to say" and their input into 17 something we're presenting is valid, was reassuring. 18 Of course, we cut out all the important stuff that I 19 said. 20 1279 So basically what we want to do is we 21 want to make people think, like Atish said, we want to 22 make them think about things that they don't want to 23 hear about, homosexuality and spousal abuse and 24 anything else we can get into. Right now, our image is 25 tables and chairs, Bindie JoHall, and terrorist StenoTran 311 1 organizations, which we also looked at and Atish is 2 afraid of some repercussions that might hold, but 3 that's okay. 4 1280 And that's just -- that's not just 5 who we are. 6 1281 So basically, like I said, our goal 7 is to generally become more mainstream and to have a 8 more positive outlook for the South Asian community and 9 say that we are needed, we are necessary, our 10 viewpoints are important and like I said, in little 11 strides and like, in the way that we sort of made our 12 way into Global and said, "You know what? This is not 13 necessarily the whole picture. It's about this, as 14 well". The fact that we were able to do that and we 15 are getting some sort of opportunity is sort of a 16 testament to the extent that we've sort of come in the 17 Lower Mainland. 18 1282 So basically that's about it and 19 thank you very much. 20 1283 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 21 much. Your passion and enthusiasm are quite infectious 22 and I'm sure you've a very bright future ahead of you. 23 Thank you. 24 1284 Madame Secretary, is that it for 25 this...? StenoTran 312 1 1285 THE SECRETARY: That's all for this 2 panel. 3 1286 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. We will now 4 take, I think, a five or ten minute -- ten minute 5 break, maybe. But I'd just like to thank all of you 6 who were here for coming tonight and sharing your views 7 with us. It's very important to us in terms of our 8 work that we have the benefit of the views and the 9 experience of people in communities across the country. 10 So I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank you. 11 1287 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I just want to 12 add a word to what Commissioner Grauer said. 13 1288 You asked her if she knew where 14 Clearwater is and somebody else thanked us for coming 15 to Vancouver. Commissioner Grauer is from Vancouver 16 and is a British Columbia Commissioner. On the 17 Commission, there's 12 of us. I'm one of the folks who 18 lives in Ottawa. There are people who do that and 19 enjoy it, actually. 20 --- Laughter / Rires 21 1289 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But -- and 22 Marguerite Vogel is the -- 23 1290 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, don't get 24 carried away -- 25 1291 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: No, I can't. StenoTran 313 1 Marguerite Vogel is the Director of the CRTC office 2 here in -- for the Region of British Columbia. It is 3 usually Commissioner Grauer around the table who's 4 asking us whether we know where Clearwater is and 5 usually her who's thanking us for coming to Vancouver. 6 So she is very often the advocate for all sorts of 7 issues that are relevant to you. But it's certainly 8 more than education for me. 9 1292 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 10 2030 11 --- Recess / Pause 12 1293 THE CHAIRPERSON: What I will do is I 13 believe that concludes our proceedings. And I'd like 14 to thank everybody for coming here to share their views 15 with us and assisting us in ensuring that we've heard 16 from a broad, diverse group of Canadians in the 17 development of our ethnic policies. So thank you all 18 very much. 19 1294 I'd also like to thank our reporter 20 and ISTS. 21 --- Whereupon the hearing concluded at 2037/ 22 L'audience se termine à 2037 23 24 25
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