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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES SUBJECT / SUJET: PUBLIC HEARING ON THIRD LANGUAGE AND ETHNIC PROGRAMMING / AUDIENCE PUBLIQUE SUR LA PROGRAMMATION MULTILINGUE ET À CARACTÈRE ETHNIQUE HELD AT: TENUE À: CRTC Regional Office Bureau régional du CRTC 275 Portage Avenue 275, avenue Portage Winnipeg, Manitoba Winnipeg (Manitoba) February 3, 1999 Le 3 février 1999 tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668 Transcripts In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of Contents. However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the public hearing. Transcription Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience publique ainsi que la table des matières. Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l'audience publique. tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668 Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des télécommunications canadiennes Transcript / Transcription Public Hearing / Audience publique Third Language and Ethnic Programming / Programmation multilingue et à caractère ethnique BEFORE/DEVANT: Barbara Cram Chairperson / Présidente Jean-Marc Demers Commissioner / Conseiller ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS: Gary Krushen Secretary / Secrétaire Geoff Batstone Legal Counsel/Conseiller juridique HELD AT: TENUE À: CRTC Regional Office Bureau régional du CRTC 275 Portage Avenue 275, avenue Portage Winnipeg, Manitoba Winnipeg (Manitoba) February 3, 1999 Le 3 février 1999 tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668 ii TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES PAGE Presentation by / Présentation par: CKJS Radio 4 German Society of Manitoba 12 Winnipeg Chinese Cultural Centre 20 Italian Cultural Centre 25 Ukrainian Canadian Congress 31 tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668 1 1 Winnipeg, Manitoba / Winnipeg (Manitoba) 2 --- Upon commencing on Wednesday, February 3, 1999 3 at 1606 / L'audience débute le mercredi 4 3 février 1999, à 1606 5 1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Hello, everyone and 6 welcome to the public consultations that we are holding 7 on ethnic broadcasting. 8 2 I am Barbara Cram. To my right is 9 Mr. Jean-Marc Demers. We are both Commissioners on the 10 CRTC. I am the Regional Commissioner for 11 Manitoba-Saskatchewan, and Mr. Demers is a National 12 Commissioner. 13 3 As of Monday, yesterday and today, 14 all of us on the CRTC have been listening to comments 15 and views presented by people in consultations, here 16 in Winnipeg, Halifax, Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver. 17 4 We will also be receiving written 18 comments and documents by e-mail. All submissions will 19 form part of the public record on ethnic broadcasting. 20 If you wish to file any written submissions, they must 21 be filed with us by the 4th of March of this year. 22 5 Let me tell you where we are trying 23 to go with these consultations. A couple of years ago, 24 the CRTC started broad framework hearings to decide the 25 framework of broadcasting for the future -- for the StenoTran 2 1 forceable future anyway -- and a part of that includes, 2 of course, television and radio and, in that, are the 3 policies reflecting Canada's cultural and linguistic 4 diversity. 5 6 In 1985, the first policy was issued 6 and now we are looking at that again, to see if it is 7 relevant for today and for the future. 8 7 One of the most important goals of 9 the policy is to ensure that the broadcasting system 10 serves the needs and interests of all Canadians by 11 reflecting their diversity in an effective manner. 12 8 So, we are here to ask you for your 13 comments on the policy itself, and your comments as to 14 how it should be changed to best meet the needs of the 15 future. 16 9 As you know, we are few here, and 17 there is good in that, in that what I would like to do 18 structurally today, is to hear each of your 19 presentations, but after that I would like to prevail 20 upon you to all sit around the table, and see if we can 21 start talking about other issues surrounding the policy 22 and if we can hear your comments on them, and have a 23 discussion -- a true discussion going -- rather than a 24 presentation to us without any sort of dialogue between 25 all of us on the issues involved. StenoTran 3 1 10 So, if you can stay until 6, or even 2 after, I would love to her your comments -- even if you 3 are not, in fact, a participant, I would like hear your 4 comments and everybody else's. 5 11 On housekeeping, we have by way of 6 staff assisting us, Mr. Geoff Batstone, he is the legal 7 advisor, and Gary Krushen, who is the Director of our 8 Winnipeg General Office. He will be our Secretary. If 9 you have any questions after today, please call upon 10 Mr. Krushen should you wish any advice or if you have 11 any questions that you would like to ask. 12 12 So, we will start with the 13 presentations and then we will, hopefully, move into a 14 roundtable discussion after that. 15 13 Sadly, we have to inject a little 16 legality in here. Everything will be transcribed, 17 everything that is said here will be used against you, 18 and it is simply that we have to have a public record 19 that will form the basis for our decisions and so we 20 have the staff here available to transcribe everything 21 that is being said. 22 14 I apologize in advance if I start 23 coughing because I have a cold. 24 15 Mr. Secretary? 25 16 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam StenoTran 4 1 Chairman. One minor change to our agenda this 2 afternoon -- our first presenter is going to be a 3 little bit late arriving, so we will move to the second 4 scheduled presenter. 5 17 I would like now to call Mr. Tony 6 Carta of CKJS Radio. 7 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 8 18 MR. TONY CARTA: Members of the 9 Commission, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Tony 10 Carta. I am President of CKJS Radio in Winnipeg. 11 19 CKJS has been operating in this city 12 since 1975. It is, by the size of its market, one of 13 the smallest ethnic radio stations in Canada. Unlike 14 other major centres, Winnipeg ethnic programs have 15 never been economically viable enough to sustain 100 16 per cent ethnic programming on CKJS. Winnipeg's ethnic 17 population, although diverse and very vibrant, is made 18 up of small fragmented language groups. 19 20 The ethnic population growth in this 20 city is moderate when compared to other Canadian 21 cities. All ethnic programs, including our largest, 22 are more or less subsidized by specialty 23 programming --in this case religious programming. CKJS 24 programming is a mix of 60 per cent ethnic, and the 25 remaining 40 per cent, religious. StenoTran 5 1 21 Why, as an ethnic radio station, do 2 we broadcast such large a segment of religious 3 programming? We feel a void left from mainstream 4 stations many years ago. Conventional radio stations 5 were not any more interested in religious broadcasts 6 because they had a fear it would negatively affect 7 their station's format and, most of all, alienate their 8 audiences. 9 22 For the last 24 years, CKJS is able 10 to exist within this duality -- ethnic and Christian. 11 For economic reasons, the two formats would not be 12 strong enough to go on individually, as one ethnic 13 radio station and as one separate religious station. 14 Together, they compliment each other. 15 23 In addition to daily religious 16 broadcasts, we provide a supplementary service with 17 three hours daily of contemporary Christian music. To 18 put it in simple words, the loss of our religious 19 programming -- let's say to an eventual licensing of 20 religious stations -- would jeopardize or put an end to 21 the existence of all ethnic programs as they are now. 22 24 I have always believed that markets 23 dictate a radio station's programming, be it ethnic or 24 conventional. Winnipeg's market is not different, 25 nonetheless, we will still carry, on a public service StenoTran 6 1 basis, quite a few programs that, otherwise, would not 2 be able to exist. 3 25 While Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver 4 can boast single ethnic groups each comprising between 5 100 and 400,000 people, the 40,000 Filipinos living in 6 our city represent the largest ethnic group to which we 7 can provide a service -- a small market indeed. 8 26 Presently, we provide to the Filipino 9 community four hours of daily programming. Ukrainians 10 and Germans -- although very active in the cultural and 11 economic lives of our city -- have integrated rather 12 well into the mainstream society. To those who have 13 kept an interest in their language and country of 14 origin, CKJS still provides an excellent service with 15 one hour daily in German and in Ukrainian. These two 16 programs are not any more economically viable, and they 17 are heavily cross-subsidised. 18 27 Having said that, what can we do to 19 improve ethnic broadcasting in Canada? The rules and 20 regulations in place are not to be discarded -- they 21 have worked rather well. A few adjustments, however, 22 might be needed to make ethnic broadcasting much more 23 market-oriented. 24 28 I believe most of Canada's ethnic 25 broadcasters will be forwarding a detailed written StenoTran 7 1 submission to the Commission. 2 29 Ethnic-Canadian music's Canadian 3 content: It is a very well-known fact that the present 4 seven per cent of ethnic-Canadian content is rather 5 difficult to achieve. We would be fooling ourselves by 6 believing in the existence of an ethnic music recording 7 industry in Canada. With the exception of some 8 Ukrainian recordings being produced in Western Canada, 9 and in particular, here in Winnipeg and Edmonton, very 10 few have produced material good enough to be noticed. 11 30 In Winnipeg, we are able to achieve 12 our Canadian content mostly with Ukrainian-Canadian 13 albums, with some old Italian albums -- very few -- 14 and some local Filipino artists. 15 31 CKJS runs an annual talent search 16 promotion within the Filipino community, and the 17 brightest outcome from one of these promotions was Ms 18 Ma-Nane Dionisio who, after winning the radio station 19 contest, went to play the leading role in the Toronto 20 mega production of Miss Saigon. By now ethnic 21 broadcasters have learned to accept the fact that 22 ethnic artists -- once they reach some notoriety within 23 their own community -- try their fortunes in the 24 mainstream music world, bringing to an halt their 25 ethnic music careers. StenoTran 8 1 32 The suggestion by the Commission to 2 raise the Canadian content from seven to twelve per 3 cent is unrealistic. Ethnic-Canadian content on music 4 should be eliminated altogether, and replaced, perhaps, 5 with Canadian ethnic programming content. 6 33 Good Canadian programming is much 7 more needed and valuable to ethnic audiences than any 8 other bad recording we are compelled to play over and 9 over just because it is ethnic. 10 34 Ethnic programming of types A, B, C, 11 D: We need to reevaluate the present ethnic programming 12 definitions. Generally, ethnic stations across the 13 country are broadcasting programs of type A. Programs 14 of type B are almost non-existent with the exception of 15 the Caribbean market; same for the programming of types 16 C and D. We must redefine ethnic programming with a 17 much broader terminology. All ethnic programs, no 18 matter the language used to reach that specific group, 19 should be grouped under type A. 20 35 I would go as far as to allow ethnic 21 stations in small markets such as Winnipeg, the 22 flexibility to include ethnic programming of type E as 23 part of a 60 per cent ethnic programming requirement. 24 36 The broadcast of programming of type 25 E would be directed to ethnic groups as well as to StenoTran 9 1 mainstream audiences -- that is facilitating 2 cross-cultural education. Impose a requirement on the 3 40 per cent that currently does not need to contain 4 ethnic programming. 5 37 Regarding the Commission imposing 6 programming requirements on the remaining 40 per cent, 7 we are absolutely contrary to the idea, and your 8 restrictions on the programming choice for the 9 remaining 40 per cent would place the broadcaster in a 10 straightjacket. It will only punish those few small 11 market stations, like us, that cannot afford to program 12 100 per cent in ethnic because of the size of the local 13 language groups. 14 38 Single language stations: The 15 Commission should not license the single language 16 stations. Single language stations would put an end to 17 programs directed to small ethnic programs groups. 18 39 Licensing one station will start a 19 proliferation of applications from every group across 20 the country. Once an exception is made for one group, 21 denying the license to others may stir up political 22 interference and cause discrimination. 23 40 The Commission, however, must take a 24 serious look into the fact that, in one hand, it is 25 denying the single-language radio station and, on the StenoTran 10 1 other, is allowing one-language SEMOs, plus Canadian 2 Satellite Service and cable companies to carry one 3 language, foreign language, foreign television signals. 4 41 The Commission is asking, how can 5 small groups attract sufficient advertising or 6 financial support? There is no easy answer. Without a 7 market, it is simply a fruitless exercise. As a mean 8 to encourage ethnic broadcasters to produce and air 9 programs directed to small-language groups, the 10 Commission could redirect the current CTD annual 11 contributions -- in our case $8,000 -- to subsidize the 12 production and broadcast of more of these programs. In 13 including this commitment as a condition of license, 14 ethnic broadcasters would strengthen their role as 15 supporters and promoters of Canadian diversity. 16 42 What is the importance of 17 third-language programming relative to the importance 18 of ethnic programming in French or English? People of 19 different ethnic backgrounds come, and still come, to 20 this country to seek new opportunities -- being 21 economical or social. They all carry a strong 22 attachment to their homeland. For many, it will be a 23 life-long one, for others a short transitional one on 24 the way to full integration into mainstream society. 25 43 In retaining an interest of their StenoTran 11 1 country of origin, they also retain the need and the 2 desire to stay in touch with the language, the music, 3 and culture of the country they have left. 4 44 Ethnic programming provides a much 5 needed service to those that have difficulty in 6 acclimatizing to their new country, to those that felt 7 uprooted and out of place in a new environment. 8 45 More choice-oriented programming is 9 provided to those who might have already integrated, 10 but still have the desire to continue to cultivate 11 their cultural and linguistic interests. 12 46 Third-language programming provides 13 them with a unique service that cannot be rendered in 14 English or French. The use of a third-language 15 component is the essence and the soul of the ethnic 16 programming. 17 47 We will be presenting the Commission 18 with a more detailed written submission prior to the 19 March 4th deadline. In the meantime, I would be very 20 pleased to answer any question you may have. 21 48 Thanks a lot. 22 49 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think what we 23 might do is have all of the questions at the end so we 24 can have a roundtable on it. 25 50 Mr. Secretary? StenoTran 12 1 51 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. 2 Now I would like to call Mr. Karl Preiss of the German 3 Society of Manitoba. 4 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 5 52 MR. PREISS: Sorry I am late, but I 6 am a high school teacher and I just couldn't be here on 7 time. 8 53 Our brief is going to be not too 9 lengthy. We do want to inform the CRTC of the problems 10 which the German Society is having, here in Manitoba, 11 getting a little bit of German programming relative 12 through the radio and also, of course, the T.V. 13 54 The first point I would like to make, 14 is that the German-Canadian community is the second 15 largest ethnic group in Manitoba, comprising of 16 approximately 18 per cent of the population of the 17 province. 18 55 The German Society of Winnipeg, 19 which was founded in 1892 -- in other words we are over 20 100 years old -- has taken a number of initiatives in 21 the last few years to obtain the German television 22 station, the Deutsch Welle, which has been approved, by 23 the way, by the CRTC, and is provided to the cable 24 companies free of charge, as we understand. 25 56 The Society is also attempting to StenoTran 13 1 address a number of concerns of our members. Petitions 2 with thousands of signatures have been presented to the 3 two cable companies in Manitoba -- the two major ones, 4 of course, being VIDEON and Shaw -- requesting the 5 German television station. Letters requesting this 6 service have repeatedly been sent to VIDEON Cable and 7 Shaw Cable. The results, so far, have been 8 unsuccessful. 9 57 The cable companies have given 10 various excuses why the service is not being offered -- 11 from not having enough channels because they are going 12 over to fiber optics, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 13 Indeed, one postponement after another. 14 58 The Society is, therefore, taking an 15 other approach -- and we are sort of forced into this. 16 We have written almost every politician on the 17 provincial and the federal levels, explaining our 18 problem and, in fact, asking for their support in our 19 struggle with the cable companies. 20 59 We have received a positive response 21 from most these politicians, and in some instances -- 22 many instances -- they went even so far as to write 23 letters to the cable companies on our behalf. So, we 24 are quite pleased about that. 25 60 We are pleased there is another StenoTran 14 1 aspect to this -- supposing we do get the Deutsch 2 Welle -- but just how much are we going to be able to 3 pay for it? We have noticed that for other ethnic 4 groups, these channels are incorporated in packages 5 which, in fact, are very palatable, and they are very 6 cost-effective. 7 61 We have noted that on digital T.V., 8 Bell Express Value is finally offering a so-called 9 German special which includes the Deutsch Welle, 10 however why the high cost? Since, in fact, it is 11 offered to them for no money at all, why does a 12 subscriber have to pay $14.95 per month -- which is 13 obviously a distinct disadvantage for subscribing to 14 one channel of that particular type and I have noticed 15 that the Chinese channel -- and I understand there will 16 be a presentation a little bit later on from that 17 community -- is in the same position, where, in fact, 18 they are asked to pay $15.95, which is totally 19 outrageous. 20 62 We note, with interest, that the 21 service is being offered to the cable companies free of 22 charge. I think I have said. 23 63 Finally, there is a darker matter, 24 which in fact has been sort of brewing in the German 25 community all over Canada. I know that there have been StenoTran 15 1 two World Wars, there has been a lot of ill-feeling. 2 However, sooner or later, the anti-German content on 3 many of the cable channels has to be addressed. This 4 is how we strongly feel about that, and hardly a day 5 goes by in which Germans are consistently portrayed in 6 the most unflattering terms on one of these channels. 7 64 Some of our members, especially those 8 who have been born in Canada -- I came over as a little 9 boy, I have two children that have been brought up over 10 here. I consider them good Canadians -- one is 11 finishing an engineering degree, and the other one is 12 going also to university. I am talking about second 13 and third generations. Why do these kids have to come 14 to me and ask why are these Germans so bloody terrible? 15 I find it difficult to understand this persistent type 16 of stereotyping you find on these channels. 17 65 If there is question on this, I would 18 like one of the panel over here to remind of one 19 program that they have seen in the last 20 or 30 years 20 where in fact a German is depicted in a favourable 21 manner on any one of these so-called Hollywood movies 22 or documentaries. Okay? I would like to see that 23 evidence provided. 24 66 No other ethnic group in Canada would 25 stand for this type of blatant portrayal and we are StenoTran 16 1 investigating the new anti-hate laws which came in and 2 we are not going to drop it right there. 3 67 Basically, that is my presentation, 4 except that the documentation is here, the letters to 5 the cable companies -- I can read you one to Mr. Kerr, 6 the General Manager of VIDEON and some of the 7 responses, all documented here, our letters to the 8 politicians, and I have supplied also in this package 9 samples of replies of four provincial politicians 10 supporting us, and also four federal politicians 11 supporting us. So this package over here is presented 12 to you for your perusal. 13 68 Let me just read you the letter that 14 we have sent to Mr. Kerr. VIDEON, I must admit, did 15 respond in a very favourable manner, but Shaw took six 16 months to even answer us which, again, is not very nice 17 public P.R. Basically when, in fact, I had a chat 18 with the Minister of Culture when she visited the 19 Jewish Congress in Winnipeg -- and she was also making 20 a presentation at the Italian Centre -- and she was in 21 her speech mentioning how important the cultural 22 groups, other than the francophones and the 23 anglophones, were becoming and that, in fact, the 24 government is going to, in the future, pay a little bit 25 more attention to their needs and their aspirations. StenoTran 17 1 69 Let me just read you this: 2 "The German Society of Winnipeg, 3 founded in 1892, is one of the 4 oldest cultural societies in 5 Manitoba and, indeed, Canada, 6 marrying the cultural 7 aspirations of tens of thousands 8 of Manitobans of germanic 9 origin. The German-Canadian 10 community is the third largest 11 ethnic group in Canada, behind 12 the anglophones and the 13 francophones, comprising 14 approximately 12 per cent of the 15 Canadian population and 16 approximately 18 per cent of the 17 population of Manitoba -- 18 indeed, the second largest 19 ethnic group in this province. 20 As you no doubt are aware, the 21 CRTC has already approved the 22 German television station the 23 Deutsch Welle, and although this 24 program is free of charge to all 25 cable companies, the German StenoTran 18 1 community is still waiting for 2 the service to be offered in 3 this province. It is hard to 4 convince many of our members 5 that there is not some blatant 6 discrimination involved against 7 the German community. This 8 matter is of grave importance to 9 the German-Canadian community, 10 and we would appreciate an 11 explanation as to why the 12 service is not being offered in 13 this province. Furthermore, an 14 ever growing number of our 15 members, and other individuals 16 of germanic origin, have brought 17 to our attention a potentially 18 serious problem. They are 19 concerned how the German nation 20 and its culture are being 21 portrayed in the media 53 years 22 after the war. The cable 23 companies' selections of 24 channels are a particular 25 concern. Hardly a day goes by, StenoTran 19 1 when some film or so-called 2 documentary shown on all of your 3 channels in which the Germans 4 are portrayed in most 5 unfaltering terms. Some of our 6 members, especially those who 7 have been born in Canada -- 8 second and third generations -- 9 find it difficult to understand 10 this kind of persistent 11 stereotyping. The German 12 television channel will be the 13 first step to bring into balance 14 the selection of channels you 15 are offering. The viewer of 16 germanic background would have a 17 choice to see his culture 18 portrayed from a different point 19 of view. (As read) 20 70 I hope it is appreciated what we are 21 saying over here, and the responses -- I won't bore the 22 assembly with them -- however, they were unsatisfactory 23 to us so, therefore, we took the political route and we 24 intend to pursue this matter until it is resolved in an 25 amiable manner on both sides. StenoTran 20 1 71 Thank you very much, ladies and 2 gentlemen. 3 72 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 4 Preiss. 5 73 In your being late, you missed my 6 initial apology of coughing, and I meant no rudeness by 7 leaving the room. 8 74 Anyway, thank you very much. We will 9 now go on to the next presenter. 10 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 11 75 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. 12 I would now like to call Mr. Philip Lee of the Winnipeg 13 Chinese Cultural Centre. 14 76 MR. LEE: Good afternoon and thank 15 you for inviting us over here. Madam Chairperson and 16 Mr. Commissioners and ladies and gentlemen. 17 77 My name is Phil Lee. I am the Vice 18 President of the Winnipeg Chinese Cultural and 19 Community Centre. I am here to make this presentation 20 to your Commission respecting the policies that might 21 impact the future directions of the CRTC. 22 78 First, a description of our 23 organization, the Winnipeg Chinese Cultural and 24 Community Centre. It is an umbrella organization of 25 the Chinese community in Winnipeg and its function is StenoTran 21 1 to provide services to members of our community such as 2 cultural activities, translation services, assistance 3 to the elderly and to liaise with the different levels 4 of government to help any member in the community who 5 may not be fluent in English. 6 79 The position of our cultural centre 7 is that we seek to present our viewpoint to make the 8 deposition to your Commission about the future 9 directions of the CRTC. 10 80 As you know, Canada has attracted the 11 economic immigrants we need to strengthen our economy. 12 We bring in skilled workers to meet our labour market 13 needs -- at the same time, we remain committed to 14 family reunification and the realization of 15 multiculturalism in Canada. 16 81 The well-being of new immigrants has 17 a profound impact on all aspects of life in Canada. 18 This is true at present, and it has been true since the 19 time of Confederation in 1867. 20 82 In the early 60s, the ChinaVision of 21 Toronto attempted to provide a network across Canada so 22 that the Toronto Chinese Television provided ethnic 23 programs to the Chinese-Canadian families in Winnipeg 24 through rental of cables from local cable companies 25 such as VIDEON and Shaw Cable Television Systems. StenoTran 22 1 83 The hours of service in those days 2 were only limited to four hours per day from, I 3 believe, 6:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. and, even with that 4 limited number of hours of service, the community was 5 very, very satisfied at least to be able to enjoy some 6 ethnic programs and, at the same time, to be able to 7 learn something across Canada where other Chinese 8 communities exist. 9 84 Unfortunately, this only lasted for a 10 few months because there were insufficient numbers of 11 subscribers in Winnipeg to maintain the cost of the 12 cable rental. I believe that ChinaVision, at that 13 time, was not able to pay the rent and, accordingly, 14 the VIDEON and Shaw Cable Service cut them off and 15 disconnected the network. 16 85 So, the ethnic programs were 17 interrupted by an on and off service for a while and 18 then, eventually, taken off the air entirely. This has 19 caused a great deal of frustrations on the part of the 20 Chinese-Canadian families in Winnipeg because then, 21 suddenly, we seemed to be victimized because of the 22 fact that we were too small a number in our 23 representation across Canada. 24 86 Then, since the takeover of 25 ChinaVision by Fairchild Television in Toronto and StenoTran 23 1 Vancouver, ethnic programs are available again through 2 satellite service and this is -- as our friend Mr. 3 Preiss indicated earlier -- through ExpressVu we were 4 able to use a satellite dish to receive signals to all 5 the subscribers in Winnipeg. 6 87 But, as you know, we do pay a price 7 for it. I think the average subscriber actually pays 8 about $30 per month and, basically, the only channel 9 they used primarily was the Fairchild Television 10 Network. The other ones, the peak fare on it would be 11 something like satellite programs from Vancouver and 12 Calgary channels, but those are really piggyback and 13 the use of those channels was very infrequent. 14 88 But, anyway, I think that is the 15 price we are willing to pay and since we have this 16 television series now, the people in the community are 17 able to get the soap operas from Hong Kong, news from 18 Hong Kong, news across Canada -- which is very 19 important because many of the Chinese-Canadians who are 20 not fluent in English have not been able to get the 21 Canadian news or the news from the U.S. or the news 22 from the world at all, so, basically, they are linked 23 to the rest of the world through newspapers and then 24 through the library but which is always a few days old. 25 89 Now, with the television, they are StenoTran 24 1 able to have access within the half-day period to what 2 happened on the other side of the world or what 3 happened in Europe and even, lately, a lot of Chinese 4 in the community talk about the impeachment process and 5 all that -- which was never presented to them years 6 ago. 7 90 But, nevertheless, the mixture of 8 Canadian content and the content around the world 9 enhanced the knowledge and the scope of the people who 10 don't have English as a first language but arrived with 11 English as a second language. 12 91 So, now new immigrants and the 13 Chinese-Canadians are much more aware of the Canadian 14 news as well as the news around the world, and I think 15 this, certainly, is an enhancement to the multicultural 16 aspect of Canada. 17 92 This is also a great incentive to 18 encourage Canadians to become part of the mainstream of 19 the Canadian society as well, because this is what 20 multiculturalism is all about. 21 93 So, in conclusion, I would like to 22 say that the Chinese community in Winnipeg will 23 strongly support the presence of Chinese television, 24 such as the one provided by Fairchild through satellite 25 service. We understand that the CRTC supervises all StenoTran 25 1 local cable companies on a regular basis. We recommend 2 that the CRTC, in developing its broadcasting policy, 3 place priority on protecting the interests of visible 4 minorities as well as other minority groups so that 5 they are able to enjoy the multilinguistic policies and 6 cultural policies of the CRTC. 7 94 Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. 8 95 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Lee. 9 Mr. Secretary? 10 96 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. 11 I would now like to call Mr. Mario Audino of the 12 Italian Cultural Centre. 13 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 14 97 MR. AUDINO: My name is Mario Audino. 15 I am currently Executive Director of the Centro Caboto 16 Centre, which is the newly built and opened 17 Italian-Canadian Centre in the Southwest end of the 18 City of Winnipeg. 19 98 We relocated there just last year 20 from an old and small place on Notre Dame Avenue, and I 21 believe we are now in full-swing in the implementation 22 of our programs and activities over there. 23 99 I don't have a formal presentation as 24 such, but I do have three or four points that I would 25 like to make and they relate largely to the local StenoTran 26 1 reality as it pertains to the topic that we are 2 addressing. 3 100 I am not personally very familiar 4 with the CRTC policy, but I do understand that the 5 spirit of it would allow -- or would contain enough 6 motivational ingredients -- to allow the production and 7 distribution of ethnic community-based T.V. programs. 8 101 I am obviously talking about the 9 Italian community and that is the situation that I know 10 better. We are quite well-covered with respect to 11 radio programs -- the Italian community has been lucky, 12 I think -- largely, perhaps, because the President and 13 General Manager of CKJS radio station who just spoke -- 14 he was the first speaker -- happens to be of Italian 15 background. I suppose this has something to do with 16 the fact that we do have quite consistent and 17 successful Italian programming in the community, or 18 maybe the programming is viable enough that Tony Carta 19 has decided to continue to support it. 20 --- Laughter / Rires 21 102 Maybe both, maybe a combination of 22 both. So, we are covered there. Where we are lacking 23 terribly right now is on the T.V. side. We do, of 24 course, receive the Tele Latino program via Toronto. 25 It comes, I guess, directly from Italy but it is StenoTran 27 1 massaged and controlled in Toronto and then, I guess, 2 sent towards the West in whatever shape or form we get 3 it, and in Winnipeg we experience a terrible problem in 4 the sense that the people who are living on the 5 so-called East side of the Red River, they started 6 received Tele Latino a long time ago while those of us 7 who were unfortunate to happen to live on the West side 8 of the Red River -- and Craig MacLaren can attest to 9 that -- we only started receiving Tele Latino until a 10 few months ago. 11 103 Anyways, we did make some progress 12 there and we do now receive Tele Latino which is a good 13 program and it is enjoyed by many people of Italian 14 background, and those of Spanish background because it 15 combines Italian and Spanish. 16 104 Where we are lacking, as I said 17 before, and where, in my opinion, there is a huge void, 18 is at the community-based level. And, here, at least 19 within the Italian community, we went from one extreme 20 to the other. By this I mean that up to seven or eight 21 ago we had three community-based and produced T.V. 22 programs. Currently, we don't have any community-based 23 T.V. programs and why don't we have any? Well, I 24 guess, there have been several changes at all levels. 25 While there has been tremendous progress on the part of StenoTran 28 1 our community in the sense that we do now have better 2 resources -- the fact that we now have the new Italian 3 Cultural Centre is an example of that. We definitely 4 have better human and financial resources to use our 5 own community-based programming, however, we have not 6 been able to access the studios of either VIDEON nor 7 Shaw. 8 105 A group of us met a few months ago 9 with Craig MacLaren -- who is here -- and he explained 10 to us the policy, the context, the parameters, the new 11 directives and directions, and so on. At the same 12 time, he also encouraged us to come up with some kind 13 of a plan and proposal. So we went as far as preparing 14 and developing a plan for a 13-episode series program, 15 including names of hosts, who would do what, the 16 format, the content, the length, the themes, the 17 objectives, the audience, and everything else. 18 106 However, a few months went by and 19 there was no response, and then upon enquiry we were 20 directed to another person who had, at that time, been 21 hired in a new capacity of community programming 22 manager. An active member of our community and myself 23 met with this new manager, but to no avail. The answer 24 was, no, we cannot accommodate you. 25 107 So, I would like to bring this to the StenoTran 29 1 floor because I think that, just like us, many other 2 communities probably would like to have the opportunity 3 to develop and promote and produce their own half-hour 4 or one hour, whatever it is, programs. 5 108 As I said, we did go from one extreme 6 to the other, and I think that this reality applies now 7 to other communities, not just a single instance of the 8 Italian community, and we are prepared to invest both 9 human and financial resources to make sure that we have 10 a liable and effective T.V. programming. We would look 11 at something like this as an important and effective 12 vehicle to communicate our ideas, not only to the 13 citizens or the audience of Italian background, but to 14 everybody. 15 109 After all, we think that we are an 16 important and active slice of the multicultural society 17 here, in Manitoba, and we are ready to play that role 18 and we would like to pursue this so that, in fact, we 19 have the access that I think should be available. 20 110 Beyond being a vehicle of 21 communications, as I said before, I guess the 22 production of our community-based programming would 23 also become, I suppose, a training ground for future 24 producers and broadcasters. After all, we now look at 25 the media and we do see that the reporters, the StenoTran 30 1 broadcasters, the journalists are not necessarily of 2 one category and I we now do see them with cultural and 3 racial diversity in action in the media and I don't see 4 why we can't have that at the local level. 5 111 I think that I will stop here. If 6 the consideration of the local level for not allowing 7 access to the production of these programs stems from 8 the fact that their interpretation of the policy -- 9 including the multiculturalism policy -- might be that 10 we don't want to ghettorized and that we want to 11 mainstream more and more. I really don't see where the 12 fear is because assimilation is here already. All we 13 have to do is look around at the so-called 14 well-established communities and that is exactly what 15 we are trying to do -- fight assimilation. 16 112 And, as we know, multiculturalism 17 originally intended to do a couple of things. Number 18 one, facilitate the integration of newcomers to Canada 19 and, number two, slow down the rate of assimilation. 20 So, if, on the other hand, the policy continues to 21 maintain that cultural diversity and linguistic 22 diversity are valuable to Canadian society, then let's 23 practice that in our own backyards before we go around 24 preaching to the rest of the world for which we are 25 proud. StenoTran 31 1 113 Thank you. 2 114 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 3 Audino. Mr. Secretary? 4 115 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. 5 I would now like to call Ms Myroslava Pidhirnyj of the 6 Ukrainian-Canadian Congress. 7 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 8 116 MS PIDHIRNYJ: Madam Chair, 9 honourable members of the task force. My name is 10 Myroslava Pidhirnyj and I am the Second Vice President 11 of the Ukrainian-Canadian Congress, the national body. 12 Along with me is my colleague Lesia Szwaluk. 13 117 We do have a written presentation 14 that we will be pleased to share with you at the end of 15 the session. 16 118 The Ukrainian-Canadian Congress was 17 founded in 1940 with the explicit goal of unifying and 18 coordinating efforts of various Ukrainian organizations 19 operating across Canada. 20 119 The UCC is an umbrella organization 21 with 27 national member-organizations, 6 provincial 22 councils, and 27 branches across the country. The UCC 23 represents the Ukrainian-Canadian community before the 24 people and the provides 25 leadership and coordination, promotes linkages with StenoTran 32 1 Ukraine and identifies and addresses the needs of the 2 Ukrainian community in Canada to ensure its continued 3 existence and development for the enhancement of 4 Canada's socio-cultural fabric. 5 120 The Ukrainian-Canadian Congress 6 welcomes the CRTC's decision to review its policy on 7 third-language and ethnic broadcasting in Canada, and 8 appreciates this opportunity to present the views of 9 the Ukrainian-Canadian community. 10 121 In the fourteen years since the last 11 review, Canada has become a more culturally and 12 linguistically diverse country. Almost 80 per cent of 13 the one million immigrants who arrived between 1991 and 14 1996 reported a mother tongue other than English or 15 French. 16 122 A Canadian heritage and identity that 17 is common to all must be respected and promoted, 18 however, for the full and equitable participation of 19 Canada's ethno-cultural communities in Canada's 20 mainstream, their cultural and social rights must be 21 preserved and enhanced. 22 123 The timing of the review, from the 23 Ukrainian perspective, is very fortunate. The Prime 24 Minister of Canada, The Right Honourable Jean Chrétien, 25 recently ended his official visit to Ukraine where he, StenoTran 33 1 once again, underscored the importance of the Ukrainian 2 community to Canada's cultural and economic policies. 3 124 Additionally, the 19th Triennial 4 National Congress of the UCC, held in Winnipeg in 5 October 1998, included the development of a holistic 6 approach to the retention and flourishing of the 7 Ukrainian-Canadian culture. 8 125 Section 3.1(d)iii of the Broadcasting 9 Act, states that the Canadian Broadcasting System 10 should, and I quote: 11 "Through its programming and the 12 employment opportunities arising 13 out of its operations, serve the 14 needs and interests and reflect 15 the circumstances and 16 aspirations of Canadian men, 17 women and children, including 18 equal rights, the linguistic 19 duality and multicultural and 20 multiracial nature of Canadian 21 society, and the special place 22 of Aboriginal peoples within 23 that society. The media, 24 therefore, should be mirroring 25 the full range of today's StenoTran 34 1 Canadian multicultural reality 2 in its programming. The media 3 must foster a society that 4 recognizes, respects and 5 reflects a diversity of cultures 6 so that peoples of all 7 backgrounds feel a sense of 8 belonging to a truly inclusive 9 nation that is Canada". 10 (As read) 11 126 This is of greater fundamental 12 concern today than ever before in our history since 42 13 per cent of Canada's population has neither a French or 14 English background. 15 1650 16 127 While mainstream media should be 17 reflecting the variety and richness of Canadian 18 community life, ethnic media serves a dual purpose 19 within various ethnic communities, and to a lesser 20 extent, providing a window into the country of origin 21 and making the transition to Canadian life smoother. 22 Third-language radio and television programs must be 23 protected. Broadcasting of this nature contributes to 24 maintaining a quality of life for Canadian senior 25 citizens who constitute an ever growing segment of our StenoTran 35 1 society. These programs also assist newcomers in 2 learning and adapting to Canadian life. 3 128 Ethnic business, although it is never 4 contained within strictly ethnic borders, constitutes a 5 significant portion of general small business in 6 Canada. Community programs, therefore, become an 7 important element of marketing infrastructure for small 8 or middle-sized entrepreneurs. 9 129 Mainstream broadcast outlets should 10 allocate airtime to ethnic communities based on 11 regional presence. This way, more community monies 12 could be redirected toward better regional programming 13 and overall higher quality productions. 14 130 The creation of such a platform would 15 do much towards raising the self-esteem of ethnic 16 communities and promoting better Canadian citizenship. 17 131 The CRTC should ensure that grants 18 are available to help offset the costs associated with 19 ethnic programming, particularly where these 20 communities have a considerable audience. 21 132 Radio-Canada International: We 22 recognize that the CRTC has limited regulational 23 authority over the RCI, however, Radio-Canada 24 International's Ukrainian programming has a three-fold 25 function. One, it informs Ukrainians in Eastern Europe StenoTran 36 1 about Canada and its democratic way of life; two, it 2 informs Ukrainians in Canada about issues, events and 3 achievements in the Ukrainian-Canadian community; and, 4 three, it informs Canadians about the major 5 developments in Ukraine and Eastern Europe. RCI 6 programs should be rebroadcast in Canada through local 7 AM-FM stations. 8 133 Access to public broadcasting: 9 Canadian public broadcasters should focus on reflecting 10 the full range of Canada's multicultural experience in 11 dramatic productions, entertainment, news coverage, and 12 documentary programming. News coverage should 13 regularly focus on community life and issues of 14 importance to Canada's diverse population and fairly 15 report on important community events and achievements. 16 Feature documentaries must examine both the early and 17 current attempts by various ethnic communities to 18 establish themselves in Canada. 19 134 Here, I think it is important to note 20 that, on various occasions, the Ukrainian-Canadian 21 Congress, our member-organizations, other congresses 22 and other ethnic organizations, in celebrating their 23 achievements in marking events, often, usually invite 24 the media -- we are talking about the written media as 25 well as radio and television -- to cover these events. StenoTran 37 1 It is very rare that they actually do. 2 135 Public and private broadcasters in 3 Canada should be required to air at least ten hours per 4 week of ethnic broadcasting which would be allocated to 5 communities based on population, demand and ability of 6 the community to produce or supply programming which 7 contains 50 per cent Canadian content. 8 136 This will result in heightened 9 community awareness of activities from coast-to-coast 10 and the promotion of a greater understanding among 11 Canada's diverse population from which Canada will 12 surely benefit. 13 137 Programming directed specifically to 14 ethno-cultural groups should reflect national, regional 15 and local experiences and provide information about 16 Canada. It should serve as a link to the community -- 17 one that strengthens and unites by informing listeners 18 and viewers about the larger Canadian community of 19 which they are a part. 20 138 Ethnic media also needs a dedicated 21 broadcasting platform to facilitate inexpensive access 22 to the mainstream media. Ideally, this would entail 23 the creation of a national multilingual network. 24 139 In conclusion, the Ukrainian-Canadian 25 Congress strongly urges the CRTC to undertake the StenoTran 38 1 following: 2 140 One, to renew the commitment it made 3 in 1985 to basic principles entrenched in the 4 broadcasting policy reflecting Canada's cultural and 5 linguistic diversity. It must ensure that mechanisms 6 are put into place which afford these principles 7 appropriate resources for implementation. 8 141 Two, create a national multilingual 9 network to ensure that ethnic programs are broadcast 10 across Canada. 11 142 Three, regulate public and private 12 broadcasters to allot at least ten hours per week to 13 ethnic broadcasting. 14 143 Four, create an ombudsman position to 15 ensure that Canadian broadcasting reflects the 16 multicultural reality of Canada. 17 144 Five, monitor and ensure that 18 producers of ethno-cultural and third-language 19 programming, both domestically and internationally, 20 adhere to the spirit of values entrenched in the 21 Broadcasting Act, Canadian Multiculturalism Act, 22 Canadian Human Rights Act and the Canadian Charter of 23 Rights and Freedoms in the creation of any programming. 24 145 Thank you very much. 25 146 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you StenoTran 39 1 Ms Pidhirnyj. Mr. Secretary? 2 147 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. 3 That now completes the list of presenters who had 4 pre-registered for this consultation, but at this point 5 I would like to ask if there is anyone else in the room 6 who has not yet made a presentation who would like to 7 do so? No? Madam Chair? 8 148 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. What I 9 would now like is everybody to roll their chairs up to 10 the table, even industry -- Tim, sitting back there. 11 Roll up your chairs and I am going to ask my colleague, 12 Mr. Demers, to put an issue on the table and we would 13 like to hear from everybody what they think of what we 14 have on the table and I hope to get a free discussion 15 moving this way. 16 149 Mr. Demers? 17 150 MR. DEMERS: Thank you, Madam Chair. 18 Thank you for your presentations -- very interesting 19 and to the point. The last presentation referred to a 20 national network. Could we have comments from other 21 persons around the table on this point? That was a 22 question that was asked by the Commission in its public 23 notice because this point was also raised by, I 24 believe, the first person. Mr. Carta, you referred to 25 that maybe? StenoTran 40 1 151 MR. CARTA: I don't believe it is a 2 priority. First of all, the largest markets in 3 Canada -- namely Toronto and Montreal -- are very well 4 served by multilingual television. There are two 5 multilingual television licenses -- CFMT and CJNT -- in 6 Montreal. They are not broadcasting 100 per cent in 7 ethnic programming, but they are coming back to the 8 Commission -- especially CJNT -- to ask to reduce its 9 commitment of ethnic-Canadian programming. 10 152 So, first of all, if the Commission 11 should licence a national television network, the 12 programming would be dictated from Toronto and we go 13 back to the same situation that Ukrainians and 14 Germans -- which are the two largest groups in 15 Manitoba -- they will get half an hour a week, 16 basically, because markets Chinese, Italian and East 17 Indian groups in Toronto will dictate the market across 18 the country. 19 153 So, I don't think -- unless there is 20 a viable solution -- that the Commission should licence 21 a national television network. I don't see any other 22 solution. I doubt the government will be in the mood 23 to subsidise everybody in order that every single 24 ethnic group in Canada receive enough programming to be 25 satisfied. StenoTran 41 1 154 No one -- I don't think the Germans, 2 I don't think the Ukrainians -- will be satisfied with 3 half an hour programming per week. So, it is very 4 difficult. I sympathize with all the groups because we 5 have been in business for the last 24 years in Winnipeg 6 and when we started 24 years ago we started with five 7 hours a day of Ukrainian programming, but Ukrainians 8 and Germans are, perhaps, the oldest immigration groups 9 in Canada and they integrated very fast and so they are 10 quite well assimilated. But, there is always a core of 11 people in the community that still care and they would 12 like to see this. 13 155 But, again, I doubt the government 14 come out and pay for the costs of television 15 programming for everybody. So, if there is a solution 16 in the future that cable companies can accommodate 17 seniors, like Mr. Preiss was asking, that would be more 18 beneficial, but a national television network will 19 duplicate the programming that is, perhaps, already 20 done by CFMT, taking into consideration that Fairchild 21 Television is already on satellite and Tele Latino -- 22 mostly cables all across Canada. 23 156 So, the three or four largest 24 language groups in Canada, they are seeing across the 25 country at this moment, either on cable or satellite, StenoTran 42 1 Canadian satellite. 2 157 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is the issue -- I 3 mean, we are talking smaller markets because we are in 4 Manitoba -- is the issue here that we don't want to 5 hear Toronto Greek, or Toronto Ukrainian, and are we 6 really back to Mr. Audino's issue that the priority in 7 the smaller markets has to be local programming? 8 158 MR. CARTA: It is quite an expensive 9 proposition, that is the problem that if you produce 10 decent television programming, you have to come up with 11 a lot, lot of money. That is the only problem. 12 159 THE CHAIRPERSON: If there is anybody 13 else, please jump in. 14 160 MR. PREISS: We are quite realistic 15 about this. We don't expect vast amounts of money to 16 be spent on a studio of German production facilities 17 here in Manitoba. All we are asking is what we feel -- 18 or have felt, for many years now -- something which in 19 fact is quite reasonable. That station is, in fact, 20 multilingual in itself because it is, I believe -- if 21 my memory doesn't fail me -- only 60 per cent German. 22 There is 30 per cent English and there is, in fact, 23 some hispanic on there too. So, you know, all we are 24 asking is to see our culture as represented by a German 25 television channel so our youngsters will have a window StenoTran 43 1 to another point of view of their culture than is being 2 presented in the media right across Canada at the 3 present time, and we are going to try to change that if 4 at all possible. 5 161 There are a number of questions later 6 on I would like to ask the CRTC because I always 7 thought that the CRTC had full control over content and 8 could, in fact, licence or revoke licences of stations 9 which in fact, basically, do not practice tolerance 10 between racial groups and the various ethnic groups in 11 Canada, and I thought we were all going to live 12 together in tranquillity. Why this indecisiveness? 13 162 So, I would like you to consider 14 what, in fact, VIDEON responded, and I am not exactly 15 sure what it means. I will bring that up a little bit 16 later. But, I just wanted to make clear that we are 17 not asking anything special here on the local level. 18 The Chairman, of course, is right, it would be too 19 costly. All we are asking is for a window on our 20 culture. 21 163 Thank you. 22 164 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Audino? 23 165 MR. AUDINO: First of all, I would 24 like to congratulate the last presenter. It is obvious 25 that they did a lot of good research -- the statistics, StenoTran 44 1 and so on. It is, perhaps, what I should have done. I 2 did not get into that, but I certainly would endorse 3 the idea of establishing some kind of national network. 4 166 Now, I am not too sure and I can't 5 envision myself how it would work or the mechanism of 6 it, but there are certainly aspects there that even if 7 there was not to be a licence for a national network 8 per se, definitely the need to ensure there is 9 consistency of standards across the country -- or 10 training opportunities -- to ensure that if, in fact, 11 we get to the point to where we are all going to be 12 able to do our little local programming, at least we 13 will know that there are certain levels of standards to 14 maintain and we all would have to respect the rules and 15 regulations in the spirit of the CRTC policy. 16 167 From that aspect alone, I strongly 17 would advocate the implementation of some kind of a 18 national network. 19 168 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Are you 20 referring to a national network or the standards of so 21 many hours on public private broadcasting or --? 22 169 MR. AUDINO: My concern at this stage 23 would be more on the standards in terms of time, in 24 terms of program delivery, in terms of guidelines for 25 content, ensuring that the Canadian content mandate is StenoTran 45 1 respected, and ensuring that whatever is done at the 2 local level is within an accepted -- nationally 3 accepted -- framework. 4 170 Again, I can't relate to what Tony 5 Carta is talking about there and maybe I should become 6 a little more familiar with the implications of the 7 concept. 8 171 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Pidhirnyj? 9 172 MS PIDHIRNYJ: We haven't come 10 forward with a full proposal for a network and so on -- 11 this is a seed of an idea -- nevertheless we feel that, 12 given the fact that the Ukrainian-Canadian Community is 13 dispersed throughout various regions of Canada -- not 14 all of which have access to cable networks -- we feel 15 that all of them should be served through a national 16 network of some sort. 17 173 I think that other communities, as 18 well, which are lesser or greater organized than the 19 Canadian Ukrainian community, would also welcome an 20 opportunity to have a venue for show casing their 21 achievements, for show casing their talents, for 22 bringing the world -- as somebody else so eloquently 23 put it -- to the community, and bringing the community 24 then to the world. 25 174 I think that this is a seed of an StenoTran 46 1 idea that warrants greater exploration, and I would 2 welcome the CRTC to review this a little more in depth, 3 and I think the Ukrainian-Canadian community would be 4 willing to research this further and, together with 5 other communities, perhaps put forward a proposal such 6 as the Aboriginal community has recently done before 7 the CRTC -- and I understand that the CRTC is quite 8 favourably looking at an Aboriginal -- 9 175 THE CHAIRPERSON: Absolutely no 10 comment. Absolutely no comment. 11 --- Laughter / Rires 12 176 Can I throw something else into -- 13 when we are talking here about a network and some sort 14 of safeguard of having some exposure -- what you are 15 talking about is really having some ethnic programming 16 on a required basis. 17 177 What about the Internet? How does 18 that impact on anything which is right now unregulated 19 and how does it impact on any broadcasting -- radio or 20 television -- any standards we would make and how would 21 it impact on getting your voice out? Getting the 22 ethnic voice out to other members of Ukrainian descent 23 across Canada? 24 178 MS PIDHIRNYJ: Well, if you are 25 specifically asking about the Ukrainian community, I StenoTran 47 1 would say that the Ukrainian professional community, 2 and so on, is well-served by the technological age and 3 has access to computers and to the Internet, and 4 certainly we utilize it for our purposes and for 5 communication purposes, but with that segment of the 6 population. There are older senior citizens in our 7 community, newcomers, and so on, who are not as 8 well-served through the Internet. 9 179 In terms of how CRTC guidelines would 10 impact, I really, Madam Chairman, don't have an idea as 11 to how those guidelines could be applied to the 12 Internet given that it is so free and flowing -- the 13 information on the Internet -- that it is actually very 14 frightening. 15 180 THE CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't that be 16 another platform, though -- as they say in the 17 broadcasting business -- another platform to get your 18 message out, in addition to radio and television? 19 181 MS PIDHIRNYJ: And it is being 20 utilized, yes. Most -- many, I shouldn't say most -- 21 but many Ukrainian organizations do have web sites and 22 so on, and regularly update them but, again, depending 23 on the organization, depending on the age bracket as 24 well, in terms of whether they use the technology or 25 not. StenoTran 48 1 182 THE CHAIRPERSON: It is Ms Szwaluk? 2 183 MS SZWALUK: I think that Myroslava 3 basically mentioned what I was going to say about our 4 senior citizens who do have that access. And I just 5 look at my own parents or the aging population in the 6 Ukrainian community who look forward to the radio 7 program on CKJS for that one hour a day, who look 8 forward to the contact on CKY that is on for an hour. 9 184 When you look at the statistics of 10 how many people watch that T.V. program one hour on 11 Saturday, it blows your mind because the fact is that 12 it is that only window of opportunity that they have to 13 watch Ukraine, what is happening across Canada in other 14 ethnic and Ukrainian communities. So, that is why I 15 think that a multilingual station is very, very 16 important. 17 185 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Audino? 18 186 MR. AUDINO: I don't know why we hear 19 words such as the Internet, the technological advances. 20 Now we take for granted that everybody knows how to use 21 them or how to access them. That is not the case -- 22 certainly not with me, I am not that technologically 23 inclined. 24 187 As was said before, there is a large 25 segment of the people -- the young professionals who StenoTran 49 1 have a certain aptitude towards technology and they 2 know how to use the various networks that are at their 3 disposal -- but there is a large segment of people who 4 are not there, who are not technologically ready. 5 Maybe ten years from now we will get to that point. In 6 the meantime, what do we do? We here to provide this 7 outlet where these people, they themselves, become the 8 players, the active players. 9 188 What do we do? We wait for another 10 ten years until they are technologically ready? I 11 don't think that makes sense. From the Italian 12 community perspective -- and, again, I go back to the 13 local reality -- the need is there, it is now, and it 14 is real. 15 1715 16 189 THE CHAIRPERSON: One of the first 17 questions in the Public Notice was: is there a need for 18 an ethnic policy in broadcasting -- and I don't want to 19 put words in your mouth -- but what I am hearing from 20 this room is that there is a need not only to have a 21 policy, but a fairly specific policy. 22 190 Am I wrong or right? Mr. Preiss? 23 191 MR. PREISS: Yes, I guess what you 24 are saying or the point of view that you are expressing 25 is that the Internet is there and all the ethnic groups StenoTran 50 1 can gather all the information from it rather than have 2 their own service here in Canada? Is that what -- 3 192 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, no, I am not 4 saying that, I would never say that because then I 5 would be out of a job. 6 --- Laughter / Rires 7 193 No, I mean as an alternate, as an 8 additional way of communicating with each other and 9 serving all -- 10 194 MR. PREISS: I think that is already 11 happening, and I think our Ukrainians friends have 12 expressed that idea and I am sure that every ethnic 13 group -- younger people and professionals are already 14 using the Internet and are quite familiar with the 15 computer -- but it is also true that we do have an 16 aging population, which, in fact, you know the computer 17 and the Internet is something alien to them, and they 18 still rely on that radio broadcast and still would like 19 to see that television program which they so much 20 cherish, see a little bit of their old country and 21 refresh their memories. 22 195 And, that is a value in itself and I 23 don't think that will ever be replaced by the Internet 24 or the computer or any of that sort of technology. 25 196 These images are there -- which, in StenoTran 51 1 fact, you know, cannot be duplicated by computer 2 technology. 3 197 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, what should 4 change in the present policy that we have? More 5 specificity, standards of a requirement of broadcasting 6 ethnic programming by the public/private broadcasters? 7 What should be in that policy? 8 198 MR. PREISS: Well, I would like to 9 see that an ethnic group like our own shouldn't have a 10 five-year battle with two cable companies to get the 11 obvious and that the need is there if 2,000-3,000 12 people sign a petition and that petition is being 13 presented and they are ready to sign up, no one can 14 tell me that that need isn't there, and we haven't 15 actually advertised that fully. 16 199 I pointed out that 18 per cent of the 17 population of this province is of germanic origin and 18 understands the language. So, taking that into 19 consideration, it would be nice if, in fact, before 20 some of these cable companies are licensed, that there 21 would be an understanding that they would carry a 22 variety of channels -- including some ethnic 23 channels -- at a reasonable price. 24 200 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, you would be 25 talking about some sort of mandatory coverage by StenoTran 52 1 mandatory access? 2 201 MR. PREISS: Well, isn't almost 3 everything mandatory that the CRTC actually regulates? 4 Yes, of course -- 5 202 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, sometimes we 6 are nice. 7 203 MR. PREISS: If, in fact, people 8 become unreasonable, then there is no other way, is 9 there? 10 204 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think there is, 11 in fact, aren't there, Mr. Batstone, some access 12 regulations in force? 13 205 MR. BATSTONE: There are access 14 provisions that the CRTC administers. The service that 15 you are speaking of in particular is a foreign service 16 so there is a slightly different regime for that and 17 the Commission has tried to balance the needs of 18 communities to get programming that they are 19 interesting in with, also I think, the interests of the 20 distributors as well in not being too heavy-handed in 21 terms of how they operate their businesses. 22 206 So, there is a bit of a balance going 23 on there. 24 207 MR. PREISS: Can I make an 25 observation? Although you pointed out this foreign StenoTran 53 1 programming, and you might have a problem with that, 2 but it is the most cost-effective way of getting 3 cultural programming into this country, otherwise you 4 would have to produce many of these programs right here 5 and, although perhaps, the German community is large 6 enough to do so, however many other smaller 7 communities, perhaps, are not. And these programs 8 would have to be imported from overseas and we are 9 talking about the age of the computer, we are talking 10 about the age of the satellite, is that a problem? 11 208 MR. BATSTONE: All I am 12 suggesting --or all I was sort of explaining -- is that 13 the way the Act and the Regulations are set up right 14 now, preference, if you will, is given to Canadian 15 services and so whereas there is a regime that requires 16 that the cable distributors to carry the Canadian 17 services before foreign-authorized services. That is 18 the way the system is developed. 19 209 MR. PREISS: Well, perhaps that 20 should be reviewed. 21 210 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Pidhirnyj? 22 211 MS PIDHIRNYJ: I would like to make 23 two points, if I may. First of all, Madam Chairman, 24 you asked whether or not the policy should be amended 25 in some way. I don't think the policy -- a policy is, StenoTran 54 1 I think, by definition, broad in its scope. It sets 2 out the vision or the goal, and then the regulations 3 are the ones that actually indicate how that policy is 4 to be implemented. 5 212 So, I don't think there is anything 6 wrong to the policy as it stands at present. Perhaps 7 we need more teeth in the regulations. 8 213 The second point that I would like to 9 make is with respect to the foreign versus Canadian 10 content. I think we need both, and, yes, there needs 11 to be a balance. Perhaps that balance needs to be 12 reviewed, but there needs to be a balance. One is the 13 contact with the mother country, the nostalgia, and so 14 on, that it invokes among older people, but also the 15 information that it provides for younger people who, 16 perhaps, have never seen that country but have heard 17 about it and this gives them an opportunity. 18 214 But, secondly, the linkages within 19 Canada -- and this is what we try to stress in our 20 presentation -- the linkages in the community, the 21 various parts of the community within Canada, the 22 celebration of our successes, the celebration of our 23 various events, and so on, to instill pride, to instill 24 that self-esteem in young people, to say, it is okay to 25 be Chinese, it is okay to be Italian, it is okay to be StenoTran 55 1 hyphenated Canadian, that doesn't make you worth less. 2 And, I think that both of these need to be balanced in 3 the implementation of the policy. 4 215 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am going to ask 5 if anybody else has any comments on the issue of -- and 6 you see we call it policy, but I think policy and 7 regulations is where you are going but then the 8 precision we also have it into one. 9 216 Does anybody have any comments? We 10 were talking about the present policy, the necessity 11 for a policy, and if there should be any changes, what 12 should the changes be? Anybody else? 13 217 All right, let me throw another one 14 at you. I listened with interest to Mr. Preiss' issue 15 of portrayal and I think that portrayal is an issue 16 that cuts across a lot of lines when we are talking 17 about visible minorities, in addition to your children 18 feeling a sense of self and pride in themselves. 19 218 What do you feel about portrayal of 20 various ethnic individuals on the public airwaves right 21 now, as they are? Is it acceptable to you the way 22 things are presently, or what should be changed? 23 219 MR. PREISS: Well, you know, look, 24 the German community has been very, very patient, I 25 might add, and very understanding and we are not StenoTran 56 1 objecting to Hollywood productions or artistic 2 interpretations of human characteristics or character, 3 far from it. But, on the other hand, when you see, 4 movie after movie, presentation after presentation, 5 where one ethnic group is totally scandalized and 6 portrayed as brutes -- and I could use other 7 adjectives, but I won't, everybody in this room knows 8 what I am talking about -- then it becomes another 9 matter altogether and, basically -- I am not only 10 talking about the German community, I saw some 11 unfaltering things about the Italians on many of these 12 programs -- and basically, the cable companies and the 13 people in Canada, in a multicultural nation, this is 14 becoming every day more so, should be far more 15 sensitive in the future to that sort of a thing. 16 220 Because these things are totally 17 unacceptable and people are beginning to ask questions 18 and put pressure on us to do something about it, and if 19 it becomes necessary, then there is legal action or 20 whatever, or put pressure on the politicians to change 21 the laws. Basically, we don't want to do this, we 22 don't want to get in any of these arguments but, 23 unfortunately, on many of these issues, we are forced 24 into it. 25 221 In fact, the German community was StenoTran 57 1 about the most non-militant community in Canada and, as 2 the Chairman pointed out, very, very assimilated, 3 however, some of these things are driving many of our 4 members to a little bit more militant position on them. 5 222 THE CHAIRPERSON: What about the 6 other side of the coin? Of Mr. Lee's children being 7 able to see that somebody can read the news or give the 8 weather who will also look like him -- physically look 9 like him. I am talking about positive portrayal in the 10 media. 11 223 MR. PREISS: You are talking about 12 the visible minorities, now, are you not? 13 224 THE CHAIRPERSON: I was, but we were 14 talking about the negative portrayals and then positive 15 portrayals. Is there enough of them, or is it around, 16 or what is needed? 17 225 MR. PREISS: Well, I am very glad to 18 see that over the last few decades more and more media 19 persons have been of the other gender and have been 20 other than white. So, that is a positive step in the 21 right direction, and that gives us a sense of being 22 Canadians, because we all know that we are 23 multicultural. 24 226 I see nothing wrong with that sort of 25 idea being, in fact, engrained by the CRTC, and laid StenoTran 58 1 down as one of the guidelines to many of our media 2 providers. 3 227 THE CHAIRPERSON: In terms of 4 something along the line saying there should be a 5 positive portrayal? 6 228 MR. PREISS: Positive portrayal of 7 ethnic groups which, in fact, make up the Canadian 8 mosaic. 9 229 THE CHAIRPERSON: Anybody else? Am I 10 raising boring topics? Are there any other topics that 11 anybody else would like to raise? Mr. Demers? 12 230 MR. DEMERS: Well, I don't know if it 13 is in a lesser degree, but Mr. Carta referred to a 14 situation and to the music during ethnic programs, and 15 I would like to make sure it was understood what you 16 were saying, Mr. Carta. 17 231 Maybe you can come back to that and 18 to the third language, and maybe have reactions 19 from --in what way that would change, for example, the 20 ethnic programs that you broadcast on your station? 21 232 MR. CARTA: Are you referring to the 22 ethnic music? 23 233 MR. DEMERS: Yes, let's start with 24 that? 25 234 MR. CARTA: Everybody knows, StenoTran 59 1 basically, that there is no production of ethnic 2 records in Canada, and we would fool ourselves if we 3 were to believe it. 4 235 I would say, because first of all the 5 market is very limited, it is very costly, and as an 6 ethnic producer I would play anyway because ethnic 7 programs are based locally all the time -- at least in 8 radio it is a local matter, it is not a national 9 matter. We want to hear what is happening in the 10 community and if an artist within that community comes 11 out and produces a record or a CD we would be the first 12 ones really to ask because the community wants to hear 13 it -- if it is decent enough. Most of the time we do 14 play a lot of bad recordings. But, again, I want to go 15 back to the fact that it would be more valuable to the 16 ethnic communities if we entrench, eliminate the 17 Canadian content requirements because we can't compare 18 the commercial recording industry to the ethnic. 19 236 Canada has a very vibrant English and 20 French recording industry -- Québec even more than the 21 rest of Canada -- but in regards to it, there is 22 nothing outside -- a few western Canadian Ukrainians 23 records produced that would categorize within the two 24 points needed to be accredited as a Canadian content. 25 You would play very few old Italians, and maybe a StenoTran 60 1 couple of Filipino records or so within the Winnipeg 2 market, but I would replace it with obliging ethnic 3 broadcasters to have a Canadian programming content, 4 meaning that instead of playing a bad recording, or 5 playing over and over the same record all the time 6 because it is Canadian, I would oblige ethnic 7 broadcasters to have a minimum of Canadian programming 8 content. 9 237 What I mean by that, it could be an 10 open line about health care, or politics, things 11 related to what is happening in Canada, basically, that 12 some ethnic programs they might run for an hour without 13 really -- 14 238 It happens across the country, some 15 programs generate very few content within that hour. 16 So, I would prefer, as an ethnic broadcaster, that the 17 CRTC look to the fact there is no way that we can raise 18 the Canadian content on music, but I would look to the 19 program content more than to the music. 20 1730 21 239 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think you wanted 22 to say something, Ms Pidhirnyj? 23 240 MS PIDHIRNYJ: I would be a very poor 24 poker player. 25 --- Laughter / Rires StenoTran 61 1 241 I can't speak on behalf of other 2 ethnic communities -- I think maybe others would be in 3 a better position to do so -- but, certainly with 4 respect to the Ukrainian-Canadian community, we have a 5 very flourishing musical industry within the community. 6 Most of the CDs and so on that are produced, are 7 actually produced out East, from very good Ukrainian 8 ensembles and choirs and bands, and so on, in Toronto, 9 in Montreal and in Western Canada. 10 242 I think this is an opportunity and an 11 encouragement to Ukrainian ensembles and to Ukrainian 12 bands and orchestras, and so on, to produce, to have 13 the opportunity of having their music on the airwaves, 14 perhaps not in prime time always, but on the airways, 15 and to have it heard across Canada. I think it is a 16 promotional instrument for them. 17 243 MR. CARTA: If I may say something? 18 That is basically what I say in my presentation, that 19 the only community, only language group that produces 20 enough recordings are the Ukrainians, and that is what 21 we make up the Canadian content really with the 22 Ukrainian-Canadian music. That is the only language 23 that produces enough recordings. 24 244 MR. DEMERS: Could I just ask you -- 25 So what you are saying, in practice, is not that you StenoTran 62 1 would replace recordings, for example, that you would 2 do today -- in a Ukrainian, or German, or Italian, or 3 another program -- you would not replace that recording 4 by an English or French recording of Canadian origin, 5 you would replace it by spoken words or other -- 6 245 MR. CARTA: Always in third language. 7 246 MR. DEMERS: Okay, thank you. 8 247 THE CHAIRPERSON: Any other comments 9 about the availability of Canadian ethnic recordings 10 and what we should do about it? 11 248 MS SZWALUK: I agree that we do have 12 a lot of Ukrainian recordings, but I guess with Ukraine 13 that was non-independent until 1991, I know that our 14 seniors really enjoy getting the music from the Old 15 Country, because they haven't had that opportunity with 16 the domination of the Soviet Union, so for us it is a 17 new thing in the Ukrainian community in Canada to be 18 able to hear music that is being produced right now in 19 our homeland. 20 249 So, for us, it is basically half the 21 Canadian content of people doing the recordings here 22 too, but I think we would like to also hear it on your 23 programs with the content coming from Ukraine too, 24 because of the fact that we didn't have the opportunity 25 before. StenoTran 63 1 250 THE CHAIRPERSON: What can we, as a 2 Commission, do to encourage more recordings? Nothing? 3 251 MR. CARTA: What it is, basically, 4 you can't really legislate, okay, we must record more 5 ethnic records. If there is no market, it is as simple 6 as that, it is a futile exercise. 7 252 MR. PREISS: We have also addressed 8 that sort of issue, however, we feel that every ethnic 9 group has its own responsibility for that aspect of it. 10 The Ukrainians should be complimented on how they 11 managed to handled this. We do have dance groups, we 12 do have recording artists in the German community, but 13 nothing that is that organized. 14 253 Coming back to these militancy acts, 15 I think that the CRTC should realize it is not coming 16 from the older people, it is now coming from the 17 younger generations which, in fact, are beginning to 18 wake up and question these things. This is where we 19 are coming from. 20 254 MR. DEMERS: Maybe, just on another 21 point, since we have Mr. Carta with us. Your 22 programming being quite large in numbers as to the 23 language that you use, do you work that the content of 24 these programs -- with, in cooperation, or totally from 25 the cultural centres that represent these -- StenoTran 64 1 255 MR. CARTA: As an ethnic broadcaster, 2 you always try to be impartial because, like everywhere 3 else, ethnic communities might have different 4 associations which don't necessarily get along. We 5 employ for the major languages full-time producers and 6 announcers, and they are quite well experienced, so we 7 produce our own programming, in cooperation let's say 8 with the Deutsch Welle in Germany, or RIE in Italy, or 9 Hong Kong Television, so we produce our programming. 10 256 Now, smaller language groups, they 11 are outside producers, but we are able, I mean with our 12 own experience to control and to demand that certain 13 guidelines in terms of content are followed, but we 14 provide basically almost every ethnic programming. It 15 resembles the conversion of radio with news, weather, 16 traffic, whatever, it is like the morning show, it is 17 exactly as you would expect on conventional radio. You 18 have the news, headlines, major newscasts, interviews, 19 open lines, and everything. 20 257 So, it serves really especially 21 newcomers, and I mentioned before Germans and 22 Ukrainians they are very well-integrated, but 23 throughout the years we have provided a great, great 24 service. But now, the latest waive of immigrants are 25 the Filipinos -- about 40,000 people -- so our morning StenoTran 65 1 show is in Tagalog, which is the Filipino language, 2 and we provide basically news on the hour, or half 3 hour, via satellite, or local open lines. The base of 4 an ethnic program must remain really information. If 5 it is good music and dance, fine, but you have to 6 provide more than that, otherwise listeners will switch 7 stations. 8 258 Thank you. 9 259 MR. DEMERS: I don't know if it is a 10 question, Madam Chair. Mr. Preiss raised a problem -- 11 a situation, let's say -- with the cable operators in 12 the area. Since it is a public meeting, have you, in 13 your view, is your approach with the cable operators -- 14 not your negotiations, but your exchanges -- do you 15 consider them to be over, that there is no more 16 discussion possible? 17 260 MR. PREISS: No, not at all. I think 18 that because of the political pressure -- you make up 19 your own mind. I think they -- and I say in my package 20 over here that I will leave with you where you can read 21 the responses. They have left a door open to giving us 22 that channel. The only question which we have is not 23 for what price -- if it is going to be $14.95, what old 24 aged pensioner can add another $15 onto their cable 25 bill? Not many people would want to take advantage of StenoTran 66 1 a service like that. 2 261 That is our greatest hesitation, 3 because if you have one of those digital dishes, you 4 can already get the service. Also, if you have a large 5 dish, you could get the service also -- free of charge, 6 by the way. So, we would like to have that service 7 included in one of the other packages that they have, 8 and I think that will be the only fair way of treating 9 that. 10 262 But, since we are on the topic, when 11 in fact -- this is Mr. Kerr, Vice President and General 12 Manager of VIDEON, addressed our questionnaire as to 13 content, this is his answer here: 14 "In your letter, you also 15 expressed concerns about 16 stereotyping in television 17 programming. As previously 18 indicated, many of the specialty 19 channels we offer must carry 20 signals. In addition, VIDEON 21 does not determine the content 22 of individuals programs offered 23 by the specialty channels of 24 broadcasters. Television 25 programmers appreciate feedback StenoTran 67 1 from their viewers. I encourage 2 you to contact the specialty 3 channels and broadcasters 4 directly if you have concerns 5 about their programming. I will 6 be pleased to provide contact 7 names and phone numbers if you 8 require". (As read) 9 263 Well, we requested that but I can 10 just imagine another 10-year battle with some provider 11 to say perhaps and then to reconsider, basically 12 changing their policy and not become racists -- because 13 that is what it actually amounts to. 14 264 What we would like to see is perhaps 15 the CRTC to be a little bit more explicit as to a code 16 of conduct by the cable providers or by the media 17 providers that, in fact, tolerance should be encouraged 18 and basically that should be the policy of the 19 government of this country concerning the multicultural 20 nature of our nation. 21 265 But, is it true that the CRTC has no 22 authority over these so-called signals that they -- I 23 guess they buy these things in packages? From what 24 source? 25 266 THE CHAIRPERSON: In terms of StenoTran 68 1 content, yes, there are certain conditions that any 2 network has to live up to in terms of gender 3 portrayals, and issues such as that, and that is why I 4 was asking you on the portrayal issue if you felt there 5 should be a positive onus in terms of multicultural 6 portrayal, because there are not standards on that, 7 there are only negative standards saying, you can't 8 show discrimination against somebody. So, that was 9 where my question was coming from. 10 267 So, there are certain standards that 11 they normally have to adhere to. 12 268 MR. PREISS: Are they actually 13 adhering? 14 269 THE CHAIRPERSON: I don't know about 15 the other cases you are describing, but there is -- in 16 terms of broadcasters -- there is a panel that will 17 review any complaints that you have. 18 270 MR. PREISS: But, you see, he admits 19 that there is a problem, but he says, well, it is not 20 my fault because I have to buy these packages from 21 somewhere else, for someone else, you better talk to 22 them, or have a fight with them, or a legal encounter 23 with them before I can change anything that I do, at my 24 cable company. Now there is a problem. 25 271 THE CHAIRPERSON: There is also a StenoTran 69 1 Cable Standards Council. However, in terms of anything 2 that they would buy, or that they wouldn't produce 3 directly, I would think they would have a problem being 4 responsible for it. So it would be the community 5 channel that would be responsible for. 6 272 MR. PREISS: Well, I would rather 7 think so, but the impression that I have from that 8 letter -- and you can read it for yourself -- is the 9 contrary, but we have requested these contacts, we will 10 write letters, and will see what the answers are, we 11 will forward the information to you. 12 273 MS SZWALUK: I have a fast question. 13 When you are saying if there is a complaint, we can 14 send in our complaint to who? 15 274 MR. BATSTONE: You can always 16 complain to the CRTC, if you see programming which you 17 think is in violation of the Act or the Regulations. 18 As Commissioner Cram has mentioned, there are a number 19 sort of standards set out in the Act and Regulations. 20 In many cases, broadcasters belong to an organization 21 which is being referred to here -- the Canadian 22 Broadcast Standards Council. In that case, your 23 complain would be referred to them, they would look at 24 it. But, yes, you can complain to the CRTC. 25 275 MS SZWALUK: Well, that is StenoTran 70 1 interesting, because a few years ago when the 2 Ukrainian-Canadian Congress did complain in regards to 3 a 60 Minutes program that portrayed Ukrainians very 4 similar to the same situation as the Germans, and the 5 response that came back was very disappointing because 6 the answer we received back was, well just go back to 7 the 60 Minutes program and complain to them. 8 276 So, as far as we were concerned, 9 there was nothing that looked like the panel had even 10 reviewed our letter or our concerns. 11 277 THE CHAIRPERSON: To whom did you 12 complain? 13 278 MS SZWALUK: To the CRTC. That is 14 going back a few years ago. So that is why I was just 15 questioning when you were mentioning about this panel, 16 that they review all these things. Well, we were 17 disappointed in the response. 18 279 MS PIDHIRNYJ: And that is why we are 19 suggesting that an ombudsman position be created that 20 would not only look at individual complaints, but also 21 complaints with -- if there are any local problems like 22 that, that an organization is having with a company in 23 terms of introducing programming, there are 24 difficulties -- perhaps that ombudsman could negotiate 25 or be a mediator in that kind of a case as well. StenoTran 71 1 1750 2 280 MR. PRIESS: Our Ukrainian friends 3 have just taken the words right out of my mouth because 4 that is exactly the sort of position that we are 5 beginning to formulate and to suggest because then you 6 wouldn't have to go through all this stuff, you could 7 go directly to the ombudsman and let him look at the 8 facts, and let him make a decision -- or her. 9 281 THE CHAIRPERSON: There is on cable 10 complaints, the Cable Standards Council also, and that 11 includes access to cable, and it also includes some of 12 Mr. Audino's problem with the terms of access to the 13 community channel. But, of course, all the Standards 14 Councils and our offices, follow the law and what 15 standards that have been put in place. 16 282 MS PIDHIRNYJ: If I may? 17 283 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 18 284 MS PIDHIRNYJ: I think most 19 governments are now gravitating towards one window 20 shopping to make it easier, to facilitate contact with 21 government bodies and agencies, and so on, and not have 22 to go through these various hoops. I think for ethnic 23 communities, it would be a great service to have one 24 point of contact rather than trying to determine which 25 body to go to and whom to contact. StenoTran 72 1 285 MR. PREISS: All these ethnic groups, 2 you have to realize -- the German Society which has 3 been here over a hundred years -- we are all 4 volunteers, we don't get paid for this, it is all 5 volunteer work. It is after I get finished there, when 6 I should be home enjoying my kids, and I am here 7 presenting on behalf of our members, and that goes on 8 from week to week, and I am sure that everybody else 9 involved in any other ethnic group, in any other 10 organization, has the same problem. 11 286 Certainly, to ease our way of 12 expressing our points of view, an ombudsman would 13 certainly be of great benefit. 14 287 MR. DEMERS: I was just going to add, 15 since we are here, that there are license renewals of 16 all broadcasting undertakings, there are public notices 17 of such in the newspapers in your area. I am not 18 inviting, by no means, but I think it is important that 19 I say -- I was counsel of the CRTC 30 years ago, so I 20 have a kind of a moral obligation to say that -- that 21 you could react to such public notices by commenting on 22 programming that may be of concern, or may be that you 23 consider very good to your community. That is also 24 possible. 25 288 MR. CARTA: Can I make a comment? I StenoTran 73 1 have already spoken too much, I know. 2 289 This is absolutely true, but the 3 limited resources of a cultural group -- every penny 4 that we do get to upgrade our building or to build the 5 new Italian Centre -- I know they are still 6 fund-raising, because I stuck my nose in there, and 7 Frank Fermentino is a good friend of mine, who was a 8 driving force behind there too. 9 290 What I am trying to say here is, yes, 10 we can make these presentations, okay, but we can't 11 hire high-priced lawyers like they would -- and they 12 certainly have the resources, countless millions of 13 dollars behind them. Just how much headway will we 14 make? That is what I am wondering. Unless, of course, 15 the government, the CRTC, is willing to help us fund 16 legal action against some of these cable companies. 17 291 Then, by all means, believe me, I 18 would get involved 100 per cent. 19 292 THE CHAIRPERSON: Let me say a few 20 things. Number one, we renew Canadian networks and 21 Canadian cable companies. We do not have anything to 22 do with licensing of ABC, NBC, AB whatever, Disney, FOX 23 and so they are carried on cable companies, and we 24 allow that, but we have no power over stopping their 25 licence. StenoTran 74 1 293 As to costs, unfortunately, I have 2 spent my last 20 years being a consumer advocate, and 3 there are no costs under the Broadcasting Act that are 4 allowed. There have certainly been a lot of requests 5 that the Act be changed to allow consumers to be given 6 costs in broadcasting proceedings. They are in 7 telecommunications proceedings, but not in 8 broadcasting. 9 294 And if you wish to add your voice to 10 consumers' movements to change that, please do so. 11 295 MR. PREISS: Consider it done. 12 296 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have nothing else 13 to say, Mr. Demers has nothing else to say. Does 14 anybody else have anything else they wish to say? 15 297 Well, I want to thank all of you for 16 coming, and I really appreciate -- and we really 17 appreciate -- all of your input. I have to say that we 18 consider the lack of resources when we do talk to 19 volunteer organizations, and we certainly value your 20 input far more because you are not hired guns. This is 21 what you really care about. 22 298 Thank you. 23 --- Whereupon the hearing concluded at 1755 / 24 L'audience se termine à 1755 25
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