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Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.



                       SUBJECT / SUJET:

                       PUBLIC HEARING ON
                     AUDIENCE PUBLIQUE SUR

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

Holiday Inn                             Holiday Inn
370 King Street                         370, rue King
Toronto, Ontario                        Toronto (Ontario)

February 3, 1999                        Le 3 février 1999

                          Volume  3
tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668


In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.


Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.

tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668

                 Canadian Radio-television and
                 Telecommunications Commission

              Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
                télécommunications canadiennes

                  Transcript / Transcription

              Public Hearing / Audience publique

            Third Language and Ethnic Programming /
       Programmation multilingue et à caractère ethnique


M. Wilson                               Chairperson / Présidente
S. Langford                             Commissioner / Conseiller


D. Rhéaume                              Secretary / Secrétaire
D. Rhéaume                              Legal Counsel/Conseillers
M. York                                 Analyst/Analyste

                          Volume  3
tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668



Presentation by / Présentation par:

CFMT                                                      379

Canadian Macedonian Federation                            389

CFMT Television                                           398

Canadian Scene                                            407

Toronto City Council                                      413

Moldova Community of Ontario                              418

Mr. Harry Chan                                            423

Mr. Mann Nacario                                          425

Manila Media Monitor                                      431

Councillor, City of Toronto                               434

Hellenic National Congress                                440

Lehan Malti Television Program                            443

Macedonian Radio Program                                  446

Columbus Centre                                           458

Mr. Thomas S. Saras                                       463

Asian Television Network                                  471

National Campus and Community Radio Association           483

Ukrainian Radio Program Association                       489

Share newspaper                                           493

Indo-Canada Chamber of Commerce                           502

Mr. Srini Suppiramaniam and Mr. Richard Kanaragaura       507

CanPak Chamber of Commerce                                517

Tokmakov City Productions                                 519

Kontakt Ukrainian TV Network                              523



YWCA of/du Canada                                         531

Ms Clara Dos Santos                                       539

Outreach Organization                                     543

CHUM-TV                                                   548

Dr. Syed Daud and Mr. Zaki Agha                           561

Sindhi Association                                        567

Hindu Memdir and Lohana                                   573

Indian Broadcasting Corporation                           578

Armenian National Federation                              586

Ms Rebecca Liu and Ms Bao Sum Chen                        592

Polish Credit Union                                       594

Mr. Clyde McNeil                                          598

Mr. Spyros Bourdorkis and Ms Vicky Karpeta                605

tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668


 1                        Toronto, Ontario / Toronto (Ontario)
 2     --- Upon resuming on Wednesday, February 3, 1999,
 3         at 1600 / L'audience reprend le mercredi,
 4         3 février 1999, à 1600
 5  1578                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good afternoon,
 6     ladies and gentlemen.  Welcome to day three of the
 7     CRTC's public consultations on our ethnic broadcasting
 8     policy.
 9  1579                 I know that a number of you have been
10     sitting here for the last two days.  Some of us were
11     here until about 11:30 last night in order to get
12     through all of the parties.  So, at the risk of
13     sounding repetitive for those of you who have been here
14     since the beginning, I am going to repeat some of our
15     sort of housekeeping matters for you, just to help you
16     understand how the consultation is going to unfold.
17  1580                 The CRTC assisting us during this
18     consultation are Donald Rhéaume, legal counsel on my
19     far left.  Diane Rhéaume, no relation, Secretary of the
20     public consultation and Morag York on my right.  My
21     name is Martha Wilson.  I am on the Ontario Regional
22     Commissioner for the CRTC and with me today is
23     Commissioner Stuart Langford on my left.
24  1581                 I would invite you to call on any of
25     the staff members with questions you may have,


 1     including any questions about the process today and for
 2     I guess the rest of the proceeding.  It's just today,
 3     so for the rest of today.
 4  1582                 Our intention is to have the session
 5     run until all participants have been heard.  As our
 6     session last night indicates, that means that we will
 7     stay here until everybody has had a chance to make
 8     their presentation.  The Secretary will call each
 9     presenter in order.
10  1583                 To ensure that all parties have an
11     opportunity to make a presentation we ask you to limit
12     your comments to 10 minutes.  I cannot reinforce to you
13     today how important that is because this is our last
14     day.  We have around 45 parties registered to appear,
15     which if you do your math is in excess of seven hours
16     of presentations at 10 minutes each, not including
17     breaks in between each presenter or a short break that
18     we are going to take for dinner and probably just to
19     stretch our legs, since we will be sitting here the
20     entire time.  So, I would really ask your co-operation
21     in trying to meet that 10-minute deadline.
22  1584                 Please remember that any comments
23     that you have that you feel you have not had an
24     opportunity to make today can be filed with the
25     Commission in writing by March 4.


 1  1585                 We will not be asking questions of
 2     any of the participants today.  The first couple of
 3     days we did ask some of the participants questions, but
 4     because we have such a full agenda today we will not be
 5     asking questions and we would ask you not to interpret
 6     this as a lack of interest on our part.  From our
 7     perspective, the most important aspect of these public
 8     consultations is the opportunity for us to listen to
 9     you, so that we have a clear idea of what your issues
10     are, what your predispositions are and we can take that
11     back and share it with the other Commissioners as we
12     explore this issue further.
13  1586                 As I have said earlier, the
14     proceedings will be transcribed and the transcript will
15     form part of the record upon which the Commission makes
16     its decision.  So that the people responsible for this
17     task can provide an accurate record, I would ask that
18     when you speak you press the small white button on your
19     microphone.  This will activate the microphone and you
20     will be able to tell that it is on by the red light
21     being lit up.
22  1587                 For those of you who prefer to submit
23     your comments in writing, comment cards are available
24     at the back of the room and from the Secretary.  If you
25     have any comments you would like to pass on, just write


 1     them on a card, sign it and give it to the Secretary
 2     before the end of the session.
 3  1588                 Finally, I would just like to give
 4     you a sense of what our timetable will be today.  It
 5     will follow pretty much what our timetable was
 6     yesterday.  We will sit from 4:00 to 6:00.  We will
 7     take probably a 15-minute break for dinner at that
 8     point.  I know it is kind of short.  We will reconvene
 9     at 6;15 and sit until 8:15 and then we will reconvene
10     at 8:30 and probably go until the end.
11  1589                 So, having said all of that, I would
12     like to ask our Secretary to call the first participant
13     and thank you for being with us.
14  1590                 MS RHÉAUME:  Thank you.
15  1591                 Our first speaker today is Ms Irene
16     Chu of CFMT.
18  1592                 MS CHU:  Members of the Commission,
19     ladies and gentlemen.  My name is Irene Chu.  I have
20     been in Canada for 36 years and my mother tongue is
21     Chinese.
22  1593                 For the past 10 years I have been an
23     advisor to CFMT-TV and today I would like to address
24     the third-language programming as defined in the policy
25     as Type A, a program in a language or languages other


 1     than French, English or native Canadian.
 2  1594                 Specifically, I would like to comment
 3     on the effectiveness of the policy and how well it
 4     serves the community.  I might touch upon the policy's
 5     relevance in the future and also the need for its
 6     continuance.
 7  1595                 In 1979 the federal government,
 8     recognizing that the electronic media was
 9     disproportionately lacking in representation from
10     communities other than English and French, initiated a
11     Media Development Course at Ryerson Polytech in
12     Toronto.  Through the Secretary of State's
13     Multiculturalism Directorate, 33 individuals from a
14     spectrum of more than 17 different minority communities
15     were selected to participate in that program.  Many of
16     the participants have gone on to establish their
17     careers in either radio or television, both in
18     mainstream and ethnic services.  This initiative was
19     probably one of the earliest concerted efforts from the
20     government and communities to point to the future
21     directions of the broadcasting industry.
22  1596                 It happened at a time when 54 per
23     cent of immigrants use a language other than English or
24     French.
25  1597                 The CRTC's ethnic-broadcasting policy


 1     in 1985 provided a thrust to define the shape of things
 2     to come.  Major players like CFMT, Telelatino and
 3     Fairchild Television, they assumed definitive roles in
 4     contributing towards achieving the CRTC's goal, which
 5     was to have a broadcasting policy reflecting Canada's
 6     Cultural and Linguistic Diversity.
 7  1598                 Today, at the turn of the century,
 8     about 80 per cent of our immigrants use a home language
 9     other than English or French.  Across Canada, 10 per
10     cent of our population, which is about 2.8 million, use
11     a third language as the most common language spoken at
12     home and in Metro Toronto that number rises to 33.07
13     per cent.  Today we have available more than 57 ethnic
14     broadcasting services covering TV, radio, off-air
15     television and on-air cable and what not.  It's an
16     impressive number.
17  1599                 Radio services are available in more
18     than 15, 16 different languages and in television, as
19     in the case of CFMT, there are 160 hours of programming
20     every week is broadcast in at least 15 different
21     languages and directed at 18 distinct ethnic groups.
22  1600                 Generally speaking then, the
23     Commission's policy has been effective in reflecting
24     Canada's cultural and linguistic diversity.  The
25     breadth and the depth of its implementation, however,


 1     could be strengthened and expanded.
 2  1601                 The Commission asks how the policy
 3     has worked in the communities.  I will give a few
 4     examples to say how it impacted the Chinese community.
 5  1602                 In 1985, I was appointed a Canadian
 6     Citizenship Court Judge and from the thousands of
 7     interviews I conducted with applicants I learned a very
 8     valuable lesson and that is language is not of the
 9     first and foremost importance in the process of an
10     immigrant's integration into the host society.
11  1603                 I also spent eight years on the
12     Immigration Appeals Division of the immigration and
13     Refugee Board.  Again, of the countless cases I
14     presided over, it shows me that the immigrants who have
15     been successful in integrating into the mainstream are
16     those who are aware of what is going on regardless of
17     their skill in English or French.  Basically, it is
18     knowing the law and the regulations of the country,
19     appreciating the privileges and responsibilities of
20     citizenship, understanding what is happening around
21     them and tasting the essence of Canadian living that
22     makes the immigrant feel that he or she belongs.  in
23     this respect, the ethnic broadcasting services have
24     done an indispensable job.
25  1604                 CFMT-TV and Fairchild Television have


 1     produced excellent programs that provide
 2     "third-language viewers" with information on current
 3     affairs, controversial issues and the happenings around
 4     us.  This access to information is the first step that
 5     leads the newcomers to become part of the Canadian
 6     society and make them feel less "foreign" in their new
 7     environment.
 8  1605                 Radio programs from stations like
 9     CHIN-FM and CIAO, they offer talk shows which encourage
10     the listeners to express their point of view, their
11     opinions, their suggestions on a variety of topics. 
12     This again is a means to bridge the cultural gap and
13     make the newcomers feel that they are truly a part of
14     this country.
15  1606                 If there were no third-language
16     programming, the thinking, the outlook and the
17     mentality of these newcomers would be a great deal more
18     segregated from the mainstream and their chance of
19     integration would be much hampered.
20  1607                 The benefits of third-language
21     programs are not limited to cultural integration.  They
22     also play an invaluable part in fostering communication
23     between the non-English/non-French speaking senior
24     members of the family and their totally English/French
25     fluent children or grandchildren.


 1  1608                 I can speak from experience.  Thirty
 2     years ago when my children were growing up there was no
 3     Chinese language programming available.  Much as I
 4     tried, I even founded a Chinese School for their
 5     benefit, but I was not able to teach them successfully
 6     the language of Chinese.  As a result, my children and
 7     my mother-in-law they cannot communicate and they miss
 8     a lot of the closeness between what naturally comes
 9     between grandparents and grandchildren.
10  1609                 On the other hand, my friend Linda
11     who came 15 years ago, she has a different story to
12     tell.  Her mother, Mrs. Lee, lives with them.  Mrs. lee
13     doesn't speak English, but she insists that the whole
14     family watch Chinese programs in the evening.  As a
15     result, Linda's family reaps a two-fold benefit.
16  1610                 While Mrs. Lee learns about Canada
17     and the Canadian way of living, and is also kept
18     current on everything that is going on in the country
19     or in the neighbourhood, her two grandchildren are
20     provided the opportunity to acquire the mother tongue
21     of their parents.  not only can they communicate
22     freely, but every member of the family is able to
23     participate in discussions of all the current affairs,
24     hot topics of the day and whatnot, and Linda credits
25     the Chinese language programming for their much


 1     enriched family life.
 2  1611                 And now today, with businesses,
 3     trades and investments becoming increasingly global, it
 4     is a precious asset for a person to have a third
 5     language capability.  Forward-looking parents are
 6     making conscientious efforts to encourage their
 7     children to be multilingual, not just bilingual. 
 8     Third-language programming provides excellent training
 9     grounds for them to achieve this goal.
10  1612                 To those of us who are relatively
11     comfortable in English or French and who have also
12     retained our mother tongue, it is always an added
13     enjoyment to learn the precise equivalents in two
14     different languages.  it upgrades our skill in
15     expressing ourselves in either one of the languages. 
16     In recent years I have translated two books from
17     Chinese to English and I must say that I owe much to
18     the third-language programming.
19  1613                 With the repatriation of Hong Kong to
20     China in 1997, it became necessary for Hong Kong
21     residents to learn to speak Mandarin, or Putonghua,
22     which is the unifying common dialect spoken in China
23     and Taiwan.  Both CFMT-TV and Fairchild Television
24     offer programs in Cantonese, as well as in Mandarin,
25     thus allowing access to people from China, Taiwan and


 1     Hong Kong alike.  The Hong Kong immigrants are
 2     particularly pleased now that they have a built-in
 3     opportunity to learn a new dialect which is used by the
 4     majority of Chinese.
 5  1614                 So, in all, the Chinese community has
 6     been well served by the third language programming
 7     policy.
 8  1615                 Looking ahead to the 21st century, it
 9     is reasonable to expect that third language and ethnic
10     programming will continue to flourish.
11  1616                 Canada's Employment Equity Act
12     projects that the visible minority population is
13     expected to comprise an increasingly greater proportion
14     of Canadian population over the next 10 years.  The
15     projection reads that in 1991 it was 9.6 per cent; in
16     1996 it was 11.7 per cent; in the year 2001 it will be
17     14.1 per cent and in the year 2006 it will be 16.3 per
18     cent.  It equates to an average increase of about 2.2
19     per cent every five years.
20  1617                 And with about 120,000 immigrants
21     coming to Canada every year, 80 per cent of them use a
22     mother language other than French or English, the
23     so-called "third-language community" will be a
24     significant force in our society.  Therefore, the
25     third-language programming would definitely be more in


 1     demand than ever before.
 2  1618                 The Commission has expressed concern
 3     over how advanced technology, Internet or digitization
 4     will affect the production and distribution of ethnic
 5     programming.  While foreign services will be made more
 6     available over the Internet and through increased
 7     capacity of digitization, the fact remains that people,
 8     in general, have an intrinsic need for a strong sense
 9     of belonging locally -- their own neighbourhood, their
10     own community, their city, their province and so on. 
11     So, it may be that the homeland program may suffer a
12     set back with the new technology, but the Canadian
13     content program will no doubt be just as well received
14     as before.  The market will dictate and it may just be
15     the impetus needed to drive the ethnic program
16     producers to take up the challenge and to produce more
17     and higher quality Canadian content programming with
18     distinct local flavour.
19  1619                 It is imperative that the CRTC's
20     third language and ethnic programming policy be
21     maintained and continued with provisions for
22     improvement, adjustment and advancement.  The policy
23     has been a good thing to the communities and to Canada
24     as a nation.  It will continue to do good to the
25     country and the people.


 1  1620                 Keeping the future in mind, the
 2     Commission should look to allow the existing services
 3     to grow and expand and provide more services to be made
 4     available to more people.
 5  1621                 Taking a specific situation with the
 6     Chinese community, since 1991, about 25 per cent of all
 7     immigrants have been of Chinese descent.  The
 8     percentage of population whose mother tongue is Chinese
 9     has increased by 42 per cent to 760,000 in 1996, which
10     was 2.6 per cent of the total population.  Chinese has
11     now become the third most common language spoken at
12     home in Canada, overtaking Italian, German and Spanish.
13  1622                 According to the 1996 census, people
14     of Chinese descent in Vancouver totalled 198,705 and in
15     Toronto that number was 243,845.  Today, the unofficial
16     number is a quarter of a million in Vancouver and about
17     a half a million in the Greater Toronto Region.
18  1623                 The Chinese language television
19     programs are provided by CFMT and Fairchild.  While
20     Fairchild offers more of a homeland style in its
21     programming whether produced here or brought in from
22     abroad, CFMT produces programs with a strong Canadian
23     character.  CFMT, unfortunately, is only available in
24     Ontario; Fairchild, on the other hand, is both national
25     and regional and available is almost all the major


 1     cities across Canada.
 2  1624                 I feel it is very wasteful to have
 3     good programs not used to their full capacity, as in
 4     the case of CFMT.  More than a quarter of a million
 5     people of Chinese background in the western provinces
 6     do not have access to many of those high-quality
 7     programs produced by CFMT.  It is a deprivation that
 8     needs to be corrected.
 9  1625                 In conclusion, I would like the
10     Commission to liberalize its third language ethnic
11     programming policy to allow more third language and
12     ethnic programming presence in the different
13     communities; to ensure that the existing services be
14     given more room for growth and expansion; and to
15     examine and modify the conditions for license to suit
16     the present and future needs.
17  1626                 Thank you.
18  1627                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
19     much, Ms Chu.
20  1628                 Would you call the next party please.
21  1629                 MS RHÉAUME:  Our next speaker is Mr.
22     Spero Bassil, President of the Canadian Macedonian
23     Federation.
25  1630                 MR. BASSIL:  Thank you.


 1  1631                 Honoured guests, members of the
 2     Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications
 3     Commission, friends and colleagues, I wish you a very
 4     good afternoon and hopefully it will be a quick one.
 5  1632                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's doubtful.
 6  1633                 MR. BASSIL:  Yes.
 7  1634                 My name is Spero Bassil.  I am
 8     President of the Canadian Macedonian Federation.  We
 9     are a national charity which represents over 66
10     organizations and over 100,000 Macedonians across
11     Canada.  Our mission is to bring together Canadian
12     macedonians throughout this great land to explore, to
13     understand and to celebrate our rich heritage.  And we
14     hope in the process to create upstanding members of our
15     society.
16  1635                 I was asked to speak this afternoon
17     on a few issues, but I felt the focus of my
18     presentation was to tell you why Macedonian media, such
19     as one of our radio programs, Voice of Macedonia, on
20     CHIN and our television program, Macedonian Heritage,
21     on CFMT, is critically important to our community.
22  1636                 I could begin by telling you that
23     Macedonian media touches most Canadian Macedonians at
24     least once on a weekly basis.  Further, I could tell
25     you that our community, first hand, depends on those


 1     shows to know what is happening to our people here in
 2     Canada and particularly the GTA.  Macedonian media lays
 3     out the groundwork for those Canadian Macedonians who
 4     want to learn about immigration policies of our
 5     government, how to obtain information from the
 6     government for driver's licences, for example, where to
 7     go to get a passport, who to call for commercial
 8     services and to find people who understand their needs
 9     and their difficulties as new Canadians.  They need to
10     know where to find a job, how to ride the bus lines. 
11     The benefits to our community, especially now as our
12     people age, is becoming crystal clear.
13  1637                 Macedonian ethnocultural
14     communications joins the Canadians of Macedonian
15     heritage to each other.
16  1638                 No other means can or yet has
17     achieved that goal.  It's a very valuable asset,
18     especially to someone like me, who needs to send
19     messages to our people about the new $25 million
20     community and cultural centre where young Canadians can
21     come and learn about their Macedonian history and, more
22     importantly, learn about the macedonian experience here
23     in their new home Canada, to learn about the drug and
24     alcohol abuse programs that we have, and our
25     scholarships that young people can apply to, to ease


 1     the burden of education so that we can raise good,
 2     well-educated Canadians who will lift our entire
 3     community and this great country.
 4  1639                 I can tell you about the disabled
 5     folks and the shut-ins who watch and listen to these
 6     shows and that helps them be part the community, but I
 7     think the best way to illustrate the importance is to
 8     tell you about my family and how media, the ethnic
 9     media, the radio and TV has affected our lives first
10     hand.
11  1640                 I was raised middle class, a son of
12     merchants.  I am first generation Canadian and I am of
13     this soil.  I never felt that I was anything other than
14     what I was taught at school and learned from my peer
15     groups.  But when I looked at my grandparents,
16     especially my grandmother, Lena, who was my Baba Lena
17     as we called her, I always felt a bit of sadness.  here
18     was a woman who had survived the war, raised a child,
19     my father, without a husband and eventually, when
20     financial times got better and the war ended, followed
21     her mate to this new country.
22  1641                 My granddad had already been here for
23     almost two decades and was entrenched in our society. 
24     He learned the language and he was a successful
25     businessman.  This poor woman did not speak the


 1     language, and to the day she died she could hardly
 2     converse in English.  Her function was to stay at home
 3     and to keep the house, that was all.  The men in the
 4     extended family tended to business.  She was basically
 5     alone, in a strange wondrous land without an ability to
 6     know what's going on.
 7  1642                 Macedonian media provided her the
 8     information that she could understand in her language. 
 9     Sure she was interested in what was happening back
10     home, but like the good Canadian that she was, she
11     needed to know what was happening here.  Now. Today. 
12     Things that we take for granted, like how many
13     provinces there are, who the Prime Minister is, where
14     we grow the food that comes in the grocery store, all
15     the way to when the church bazaar was came from the
16     media.  Without that lifeline to the outside world, as
17     a Canadian, she was removed from the very basic
18     knowledge that all Canadians enjoy.  There was nowhere
19     else to get that information.  And for her to function,
20     she needed that connection.
21  1643                 Macedonian media showed her our city
22     Hall and then she wanted to see the city hall.  It
23     showed her how the courts worked.  She wanted to go
24     down and see how the courts worked.  She wanted to
25     visit the church by herself and she learned about the


 1     TTC from a number provided by the ethnic media.  The
 2     impact was so immeasurable that without the media she
 3     would have watched television and the pretty pictures
 4     and never would have been exposed to the wonders that
 5     were outside her door, the wonders that our Canada had
 6     to offer.
 7  1644                 She even wanted her own bank account,
 8     so we went down and opened it up for her the next day
 9     when she found out that there was compound interest.
10  1645                 Imagine, if you will, a quiet strange
11     world to an older ethnic woman and imagine the smile on
12     her face when she turned on the TV or the radio.  I
13     remember it will.
14  1646                 On a broader scale, if the goal of
15     ethnic media is to provide information domestic and
16     international, if it is to expose the arts, ethnic and
17     otherwise and if it is to make the viewer or listener
18     who is new to Canada or has been here for a while feel
19     connected or safer and appreciative of what Canada
20     means and how great it is to be Canadian, then our TV,
21     the Macedonian shows have accomplished their mission.
22  1647                 This country and indeed all of North
23     America was built and conceived by immigrants, from the
24     nordic people to the British Isles, to Europe, to Asia,
25     to Africa and all points in between.  This country was


 1     built by the sweat of their brows.  The role of
 2     government has been and will continue to be, I hope in
 3     this matter, to try to ease that transition, to make
 4     living here a little easier and that is something I
 5     can't comment on because my grandparents and parents
 6     lived through the transition so that I could finish
 7     school and become a positive, strong and a very proud
 8     Canadian.
 9  1648                 On the issue of demographic changes
10     that have taken place, because I have not been exposed
11     to specific data about Canadians of Macedonian
12     heritage, I don't feel that I could responsibly answer
13     the concern.  However, if I was to make an attempt at
14     the answer, I would say that as far as the Macedonians
15     were concerned, the 35 and over group who make up the
16     majority of listeners and viewers are enjoying and
17     benefiting from the programming.
18  1649                 There is no doubt in my mind that
19     within 10 years this study will have to be revisited to
20     determine whether or not the viewership still exists
21     and whether or not the benefits are there for that
22     ethnic group and the population as a whole.
23  1650                 Further, on the issue of importing
24     foreign services rather than developing Canadian
25     ethnocultural services, I think given what I have


 1     talked about, the results would be catastrophic and
 2     defeat the very essence of ethnocultural broadcasting. 
 3     I can't stress enough the absolute blessing that our
 4     radio and TV shows have brought to Canadian
 5     Macedonians.  Without them our people would have
 6     scattered away from the fold, churches probably would
 7     not have been built, seniors' homes never conceived nor
 8     funded, children's dance groups not having the
 9     opportunity to reach out to the community.  Foreign
10     services would be just that, foreign, and not Canadian
11     shows run by Canadians to serve macedonians in their
12     new homeland.
13  1651                 There are Macedonians from coast to
14     coast in this great big country, and my position is
15     that the ethnocultural broadcasting system must now
16     grow to meet the demand for the next 10 years.
17  1652                 As a person who is marketing, I know
18     that when a banquet is held annually for our media
19     people as a celebration, and the venue sells out very
20     quickly, somebody is listening, somebody is watching
21     and somebody appreciates what they are receiving.
22  1653                 In my heart of hearts I know that
23     what we have in our community is getting the message
24     out to the people.  Ethnomedia, without a doubt is
25     moulding the future generations of Canada.  It is


 1     promoting model citizenry and it is creating a harmony
 2     and peace for which Canada is known worldwide.  I ask
 3     you to try to understand what CFMT and CHIN, for
 4     example, mean to the ethnic people of this land and I
 5     ask you to help me grow this wonderful thing called
 6     ethnocultural broadcasting, so that we can touch and
 7     better the lives of all Canadians.
 8  1654                 Thank you.
 9  1655                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
10     much, Mr. Bassil.
11  1656                 If I could just make a suggestion to
12     all of you and at the risk of sounding like a real task
13     master on this time issue.  You might remove your watch
14     and put it in front of you when you are making your
15     presentation and just keep your eye on it.  The
16     Secretary will be indicating 10 minutes when you have
17     hit 10 minutes, just because we have to keep moving
18     through.
19  1657                 I just want to reinforce to all of
20     you again that I would like nothing better than to have
21     many hours to listen and to talk and to question and it
22     is unfortunate that we just don't have that time
23     because of the overwhelming response that we have had.
24  1658                 So, please forgive me if I sound kind
25     of focused on this time issue.  I would rather not be


 1     focused on it, but if you could just use the trick of
 2     taking your watch off and keep your eye on the clock
 3     and Madam Rhéaume will let you know when 10 minutes has
 4     arrived.
 5  1659                 Thank you.
 6  1660                 MS RHÉAUME:  Our next presentation is
 7     by Madeline Ziniak and Leslie Sole of CFMT Television.
 8  1661                 MR. SOLE:  I certainly hope I am not
 9     the first one gonged in this presentation.
11  1662                 MR. SOLE:  Members of the Commission,
12     I am Leslie Sole, Executive Vice-President and General
13     Manager of CFMT Television.  With me is Madeline
14     Ziniak, Executive Producer and Vice-President.
15  1663                 We are pleased to participate in the
16     first phase of this important policy proceeding.  As
17     the turnout for the public consultations clearly
18     demonstrates, both here in Toronto and across the
19     country, there is substantial public interest in the
20     policy issues identified by Commission Public Notice
21     1998-135 and in ethnic broadcasting in general.
22  1664                 We bring to this Hearing 20 years of
23     experience as Canada's and the world's first
24     over-the-air multilingual, multicultural television
25     station.  CFMT was launched in 1979.  It struggled


 1     financially until 1985, when it was acquired by Rogers
 2     Broadcasting.  Rogers' pioneering experience with
 3     multicultural channels on cable in Toronto and
 4     Vancouver provided a firm foundation for our entry into
 5     multilingual television broadcasting.
 6  1665                 Our commitment to delivering the
 7     highest quality broadcasting services has led us to
 8     make substantial investments in CFMT's facilities and
 9     constant staff training.  We have expanded the coverage
10     of the station throughout southern and eastern Ontario. 
11     Our program schedule is constantly evolving in response
12     to the changing needs and interests of the many
13     different ethnocultural groups that we serve.
14  1666                 Like other over-the-air television
15     stations, multilingual television stations are expected
16     to provide diverse programming that addresses many
17     different needs and interests of the local community. 
18     In practice, this means that CFMT provides programming
19     each month for members of at least 18 different
20     ethnocultural groups in at least 15 different
21     languages.  This ensures that the members of the
22     ethnocultural community have access to high quality,
23     Canadian television programming in the language of
24     their comfort.
25  1667                 The 1985 broadcasting policy provided


 1     a solid foundation for CFMT to become the successful
 2     multilingual television station that it is today.  We
 3     believe that the basic principles of that policy remain
 4     sound.
 5  1668                 MS ZINIAK:  The ethnic broadcasting
 6     policy is a proven success on which we continue to
 7     build.  The ethnic broadcasting policy of 1985 is based
 8     on three key policy principles.
 9  1669                 First, the ethnic broadcasting policy
10     recognizes that the programming provided by the
11     Canadian broadcasting system should reflect the
12     multicultural character of Canada.  The obligation to
13     provide such reflection programming is shared by all
14     elements of the Canadian broadcasting system.
15  1670                 Second, the ethnic broadcasting
16     policy recognizes that the Canadian broadcasting system
17     must go beyond merely reflecting multicultural
18     diversity.  In addition, it must provide high quality
19     Canadian programming in languages other than English
20     and French.  Third-language programming is essential to
21     support cultural retention, consistent with Canada's
22     multicultural policy, while at the same time
23     facilitating integration.  It is a means for members of
24     ethnocultural communities to become a part of, not to
25     stand apart from life in Canada.


 1  1671                 Third, the ethnic policy recognizes
 2     that the structure of the ethnic broadcasting system
 3     will evolve and over time will come to resemble the
 4     structure of other components of the broadcasting
 5     system.  There will be a basic foundation of free,
 6     over-the-air ethnic broadcasting services.  These
 7     services are to provide predominantly Canadian
 8     programming and serve a broad cross-section of the
 9     ethnocultural audience.  To these services will be
10     added more specialized Canadian and foreign services
11     that provide additional third-language programming.
12  1672                 Clearly, it is challenging to provide
13     a wide variety of high quality Canadian programming in
14     many different languages in a commercial broadcasting
15     environment.  But we believe that is an essential
16     function of a local multilingual television station. 
17     There simply is not enough spectrum to provide free,
18     over-the-air television services for all ethnocultural
19     groups.  nor is there the necessary economic
20     infrastructure.
21  1673                 We work closely with the members of
22     our community advisory board, with independent
23     producers from the various ethnocultural groups that we
24     serve and with other members of the community.  We have
25     comprehensive policies to assess programming proposals


 1     and to ensure that our program schedule adequately
 2     serves members of larger and smaller ethnocultural
 3     groups.  We also work closely with local and national
 4     advertisers to help them understand the value of
 5     advertising in third languages.
 6  1674                 We are proud of how we manage this
 7     diverse program production process.  I would be pleased
 8     to answer any questions that the Commission may have in
 9     this area.
10  1675                 In the Public Notice, the Commission
11     noted that the introduction of digital cable will make
12     it possible for members of ethnocultural groups to have
13     increased access to third language television
14     programming.  We agree that increased third-language
15     programming choice is important and valuable for
16     members of ethnocultural groups.
17  1676                 However, foreign programming is not a
18     substitute for Canadian programming in third languages. 
19     The proliferation of foreign programming choices will
20     make it even more important that we provide high
21     quality, Canadian third language programming that
22     offers information on Canadian society and the world
23     from a Canadian point of view.
24  1677                 MR. SOLE:  The Commission has also
25     indicated that it wishes to examine the economics of


 1     ethnic broadcasting.  We have learned by experience
 2     that the economics of ethnic broadcasting closely
 3     resemble those of English and French language
 4     broadcasting.
 5  1678                 Some services, such as specialty
 6     services, achieve financial viability by combining two
 7     revenue streams:  advertising and subscription
 8     payments.  Over-the-air services have access to only
 9     advertising revenues.  They must generate revenues from
10     popular foreign programming if they are to achieve
11     financial viability and cover the cost of providing
12     high quality Canadian programming.
13  1679                 A station like CFMT must serve a wide
14     variety of larger and smaller ethnocultural groups. 
15     Smaller ethnocultural groups often do not have the
16     social and economic infrastructure necessary to fully
17     support Canadian third language television programming. 
18     Yet they are often the most urgently in need of such
19     programming.  Without the ability to recover the cost
20     of producing Canadian ethnic programming from the
21     revenues generated from foreign English-language
22     programming, CFMT could not fulfil its important public
23     policy mandate on a financially viable basis.
24  1680                 As such, we believe that the current
25     60 per cent/40 per cent rule should be maintained. 


 1     Like conventional television stations, multilingual
 2     television stations must be able to provide up to 40
 3     per cent non-Canadian English language programming if
 4     they are to have the financial resources to carry out
 5     their mandate.  We base this conclusion not only on our
 6     own experience, but on the experience of CJNT
 7     Television in Montreal.  The recent application seeking
 8     authority to change CJNT's conditions of licence
 9     highlights the ongoing validity and the importance of
10     the 60/40 rule.
11  1681                 At the same time, multilingual
12     television stations are required to provide 75 per cent
13     ethnic programming between 8:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m.
14     each evening.  Unlike conventional stations, we provide
15     Canadian programming in the heart of evening prime
16     time, with non-Canadian English programs confined to
17     fringe prime and non-prime time periods.
18  1682                 While the current ethnic broadcasting
19     policy has been effective, we agree with the Commission
20     that there may be some ways that it could be improved.
21  1683                 For example, we agree that the
22     current policy framework appears to discourage ethnic
23     broadcasters from providing multicultural
24     programming -- that is programming in English or French
25     and designed to address multicultural issues or to


 1     promote cross-cultural exchange.  That kind of problem
 2     could be addressed if multicultural programming were to
 3     qualify as ethnic programming.  We believe this should
 4     be subject to some limitations.
 5  1684                 As well, we believe that the ethnic
 6     policy should be simplified by decreasing the number of
 7     ethnic programming categories.  The number of
 8     categories could be decreased from five to three, or
 9     possibly even two, with no significant impact on the
10     achievement of policy objectives.
11  1685                 In our written submission we will
12     propose other ways in which the administration and
13     reporting requirements of the ethnic policy could be
14     streamlined.
15  1686                 Finally, let me turn to the issue of
16     a national multilingual television network.
17  1687                 We believe that the licensing of such
18     a network should become a priority, after CJNT in
19     Montreal has been stabilized and after a new
20     multilingual television station has been licensed in
21     Vancouver.  A national multilingual television network
22     is the best and most effective way to extend the
23     benefits of the Commission's successful ethnic policy
24     beyond the largest markets in Canada.
25  1688                 A national multilingual television


 1     network could help support the development of
 2     distinctive local multilingual television stations in
 3     various markets across this country that are too small
 4     to support stations on a stand alone basis, like
 5     Winnipeg, Edmonton and Calgary.  These local
 6     multilingual television stations would provide viewers
 7     with a distinctive, high quality Canadian alternative
 8     to the ever-wider choice of foreign programming
 9     services that will soon be available.  In doing so, a
10     national multilingual network would address the need
11     that has been identified in this public consultation
12     for "free" access to a basic level of service for
13     ethnocultural groups in smaller Canadian markets.
14  1689                 Once the multilingual television
15     stations --
16  1690                 MS RHÉAUME:  Mr. Sole, could you
17     wrap-up please.
18  1691                 MR. SOLE:  Once the multilingual
19     television stations are securely established in the
20     three largest markets, we believe the Commission should
21     call for applications for a national multilingual
22     television network licence.  The Commission should
23     invite applicants, together with their potential
24     affiliates, to describe how the licensing of such a
25     network would meet the objectives of the policy and


 1     address the needs and interests of the members of the
 2     ethnocultural groups in each of the communities to be
 3     served.
 4  1692                 Thank you for allowing me to be 30
 5     seconds over and, of course, we will have detailed
 6     comments in Phase 2.
 7  1693                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will look
 8     forward to that, Mr. Sole.  Thank you very much to both
 9     of you.
10  1694                 MS RHÉAUME:  Our next speaker is Dr.
11     Judith Pilowsky.  Dr. Judith Pilowsky.
12  1695                 We will go to the next one.  Mr. John
13     Oostrom, President of Canadian Scene.
15  1696                 MR. OOSTROM:  Good evening.  My name
16     is John Oostrom and I am President of Canadian Scene,
17     which is a free, national, non-profit, multilingual
18     news and information service for Canada's ethnic media. 
19     On behalf of our volunteer board of directors I would
20     like to thank you for this opportunity to be part of
21     these consultations.
22  1697                 In April of this year, Canadian Scene
23     will have been in existence for 48 years.  It's a
24     registered Canadian charitable corporation and we began
25     publishing in 1951, distributing news and information 


 1     about Canada in seven languages to some 30 publications
 2     and a handful of radio programs.  Today we distribute
 3     bulletins twice monthly in 13 languages and to nearly
 4     400 print media and 200 radio and television programs
 5     across Canada.
 6  1698                 We would, of course, publish many
 7     more translations, but we are confined only by the
 8     budget that our funding permits.  Our 100 per cent
 9     Canadian content deals with Canadian customs, history,
10     institutions, laws, arts and sciences and the rights
11     and responsibilities of Canadian citizenship.  We
12     believe that good Canadian citizens are informed
13     citizens.
14  1699                 Our board of directors reflects our
15     faith in multiculturalism.  Our honourary chair was
16     born in Hungary.  I myself came from the Netherlands,
17     just out of my teens, shortly after the close of World
18     War Two.  Our vice-president was born in Hong Kong, our
19     treasurer in India and our secretary in Hungary.  Other
20     board members and staff reflect Byelorussian, English,
21     German, italian, Jamaican, Japanese, Russian and
22     Scottish heritages.
23  1700                 We believe that over 48 years,
24     Canadian Scene has established a position of trust with
25     the ethnic media.  Almost weekly, as new broadcast


 1     programs and print media are established, we receive
 2     requests to receive our twice monthly bulletins. 
 3     Ethnic media are growing in number as immigration
 4     brings more and more diversity to Canada.
 5  1701                 I am sure you have all heard the
 6     complaint "Why can't they learn English or speak
 7     English or French?"  And even "Why accept immigrants
 8     who can't speak either official language?"  But I am
 9     sure that you know as well as I do, that the world
10     isn't made up of linguistic scholars and that the great
11     desire to immigrate here is shown by people from all
12     walks of life.
13  1702                 Our official policy of
14     multi-culturalism recognized this fact when it was
15     introduced in 1971 and further enshrined in the
16     Multiculturalism Act of 1998 (sic).  I am proud to say
17     that I was a member of the Parliament that passed the
18     Act without a dissenting vote.
19  1703                 Last December, Citizenship and
20     Immigration minister Lucienne Robillard announced
21     proposals for a new Citizenship Act and a new
22     immigration Act which will be tabled following further
23     public consultations.  In the immigration Act she chose
24     not to accept the recommendations of a committee that
25     had in 1997 recommended that new immigrants be required


 1     to speak one of our official languages.  Because, after
 2     public consultations she had learned that such a
 3     restriction would be neither popular nor productive.
 4  1704                 Looking at the future of Canadian
 5     Scene we can, therefore, see a need for it as long as
 6     immigration is needed which, as demographers tell us,
 7     will be a very long time if we are to maintain the
 8     population growth necessary to keep Canada a strong and
 9     healthy nation.  Some people ask me why we need to
10     publish multilingually.
11  1705                 I do not think that any of us are
12     naive enough to believe that however well a person
13     becomes fluent in another tongue, he or she casts off
14     the mother tongue like an old piece of clothing.  to
15     millions, the mother tongue remains what our managing
16     editor, Ben Viccari, has termed the "language of
17     comfort".
18  1706                 Doesn't it follow then, that it's
19     much easier for a huge number of new Canadians to
20     absorb vital information about the way Canada works in
21     his or her language of comfort?  From our experience at
22     Canadian Scene through feedback from print editors and
23     broadcasters, this kind of information is considered
24     important and our translations are helpful.
25  1707                 That is why, on behalf of our board


 1     and the many media to which we distribute our news and
 2     information bulletins, we endorse a policy of third-
 3     language broadcasting, especially that which contains a
 4     large percentage of Canadian content.  While in the
 5     knowledge that ethnic broadcasting is governed by
 6     market conditions we trust that the Commission's policy
 7     towards it will continue to reflect its encouragement
 8     and sensible growth.
 9  1708                 We would like further to comment on
10     what the Commission terms Type E programming.  Programs
11     of an ethnocultural nature in French or English
12     directed to an ethnic group or groups, or to a
13     mainstream audience that further an understanding of
14     multiculturalism are of a highly desirable nature and
15     should be considered as part of ethnic programming.
16  1709                 May I offer one example of this kind
17     of programming?  Last year, CFMT-TV produced a
18     30-minute documentary in English entitled "The Courage
19     to Stand".  It was made in British Columbia and tells
20     how two communities in that province, Kelowna and
21     Oliver, are working to combat the activities of
22     organized racism.  Since members of ethnocultural
23     communities are shown as the targets and multicultural
24     organizations as part of the activities against racism,
25     it has a potent message for all Canadians.


 1  1710                 In closing, I would like to quote
 2     Frank Belle, for many years an ethnic media specialist
 3     with the federal government, who wrote in a report on
 4     citizenship and I quote:
 5                            "In 1938 Brazil banned the
 6                            foreign language press. 
 7                            According to two Brazilian
 8                            social scientists, the ban,
 9                            which lasted for eight years was
10                            extremely harmful to
11                            integration.  What was not
12                            appreciated by the Brazilian
13                            government was that the ban
14                            contributed to the immigrant's
15                            isolation from the Brazilian
16                            scene.  The government did not
17                            appear to realize that mass
18                            media communications in the
19                            language of the newcomers could
20                            be excellent for acquainting the
21                            newly arrived with the various
22                            aspects of Brazilian life.  The
23                            social scientists emphasized
24                            that immigrant adjustment could
25                            have been eased through the use


 1                            of media in their respective
 2                            tongues.  on arrival in the new
 3                            land, the immigrant is most
 4                            anxious to learn about his or
 5                            her new country.  The policy of
 6                            the government drove the various
 7                            ethnic groups into immediate
 8                            isolation.  They were denied
 9                            access to the very information
10                            which would have speeded their
11                            integration."
12  1711                 Ladies and gentlemen, in conclusion i
13     would like to thank you for having organized these
14     consultations and for permitting Canadian Scene to take
15     part in it.
16  1712                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
17     much, Mr. Oostrom.
18  1713                 MS RHÉAUME:  Just so you can follow,
19     Presenter 6 and 22 have been switched, so the next
20     presenter will be Mr. Raymond Cho of the Toronto City
21     Council.
22  1714                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Welcome, Mr. Cho.
24  1715                 MR. CHO:  Thank you very much.
25  1716                 I would also like to thank mr. Srini


 1     Suppiraniam, Executive Director of TV Ceylon for
 2     letting me take his place.  Actually, I should be at
 3     City Council.  We have City Council and I just snuck
 4     out because I feel this public hearing is more
 5     important that any of the agendas at Toronto City.
 6  1717                 So, to make my representation very
 7     brief I am going to read it if you don't mind.
 8  1718                 I would like to begin my deputation
 9     by extending my sincere thanks to all the members of
10     this committee and the Canadian Radio and Television
11     Corporation for allowing me and other members of the
12     public to share our views on ethnic TV in the Canadian
13     multicultural society.
14  1719                 I have taken the liberty of
15     submitting this deputation to the committee since the
16     role and contribution of ethnic television and radio is
17     so vitally important in terms of forming the social
18     fabric of the Canadian multicultural mosaic society.
19  1720                 If I may, I would like to introduce
20     myself very briefly.  Actually, I said I am here, but i
21     am not able to attend this hearing in person.  At this
22     time i should be attending the Toronto City Council.
23  1721                 I have been in Canada for the last 32
24     years and i happen to be the first and the only elected
25     representative from a Korean background in Canada.  I


 1     am proud to be Canadian and i am so proud of my Korean
 2     cultural background.
 3  1722                 Prior to becoming a politician, I was
 4     a social worker with the Board of Education.  I hold a
 5     doctorate degree in counselling psychology and also
 6     studied multiculturalism.
 7  1723                 I am in full support of multicultural
 8     TV and radio for the following reasons:
 9  1724                 I feel extremely proud and fortunate
10     to be living in Toronto, which is considered to be the
11     best city in the world in which to live and in which to
12     work.  one of the city's major strengths is that it has
13     close to 100 ethnic groups, speaking 170 languages.  It
14     is the only place in the world where so many diverse
15     groups live in peace and harmony.  I see this every day
16     in my role as a city councillor and as Chairman of the
17     Toronto Zoo Board, one of the finest institutions of
18     its kind in the world, which serves the whole
19     community, not just the ethnic community.
20  1725                 When every diverse cultural group
21     remains healthy culturally, socially and economically,
22     the whole society becomes healthier and everyone
23     benefits.  It is very important to feel proud of one's
24     cultural background and to be able to communicate in
25     one's first language.  It is important for one to have


 1     freedom of speech.  If we cut down on their ethnic
 2     communication channel, every ethnic group will become
 3     less active and more frustrated and thus affect all of
 4     mainstream Canada negatively.
 5  1726                 In the States, they emphasize the
 6     melting pot.  In Canada, especially in the Greater
 7     Toronto Area, we respect one's cultural diversity.  The
 8     credit goes to all the media people, in television,
 9     radio and the press.
10  1727                 Therefore, thank you to all at the
11     Canadian Radio and Television Corporation.
12  1728                 Since my background is korean, I
13     would like to give you some background about TV Korea,
14     Channel 47, CFMT.
15  1729                 TV Korea has been in operation for
16     nine years and I have personally been an avid viewer
17     and participant of its programs.  Koreans with an
18     English barrier, in general, and Korean seniors in
19     particular, love the Korean TV program.  It is very
20     much in need and in many cases it is their only channel
21     of communication and maybe their only audio-visual
22     source of information and entertainment on a regular
23     basis.  The channel broadcasts the news, transmits
24     debates, shares information on community events, shows
25     cultural programs and much more.


 1  1730                 The many cultural programs provided
 2     by the channel are broadcast all across Ontario.  By
 3     all means, please help our multicultural programs and
 4     if at all possible expand them.  As I said earlier, it
 5     will make for a stronger community.
 6  1731                 The City of Toronto is the economic
 7     and cultural engine of Canada.  Multiculturalism should
 8     remain a Canadian value.  It should be enriched and the
 9     ethnic TV and radio certainly have a major role to play
10     for the enhancement of Canadian society.  I urge
11     members and appeal to you now to please keep our
12     programs and possibly expand them.
13  1732                 My objective is to make sure that all
14     Canadians get top-quality programming.  In order to
15     achieve this, it is important for all sectors of the
16     community to receive the same high standards.  I
17     believe that the CRTC has done an excellent job in the
18     past in meeting this mandate.  Please don't let the
19     standards deteriorate.
20  1733                 Thank you very much.
21  1734                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you so much,
22     Mr. Cho, and your secret is safe with us, although I am
23     not sure that they are not going to notice that you are
24     missing.  Thank you for being with us.
25  1735                 MS RHÉAUME:  The next speakers are Ms


 1     Irina Litchou and Corneliu Chisu of the Moldova
 2     Community of Ontario.  I am sorry, they are both Ms'
 3     obviously.
 4  1736                 MS CHISU:  No, there has been a
 5     change.
 6  1737                 MS RHÉAUME:  Could you identify your
 7     parties, please.
 9  1738                 MS CHISU:  Instead of Corneliu Chisu
10     it will be my colleague Cecilia Kutas and together 10
11     minutes or less.
12  1739                 Distinguished representatives of the
13     Commission, ladies and gentlemen.  I will be brief.  My
14     name is irina litchou and I have come to talk to you
15     about my experience of ethnocultural broadcasting.
16  1740                 I am here as a representative of the
17     Moldovan community and as a produce of Moldova TV.  The
18     Moldovan community in Canada is relatively new.  The
19     country of Moldova separated from the USSR less than 10
20     years ago, but there are more than 100,000 of us in
21     ontario.  Together with Romanians it is 250,000 all
22     over Canada.
23  1741                 Moldova is a multicultural country. 
24     The main languages spoken are Romanian and Russian.
25  1742                 The show I produce has an even mix of


 1     both languages, Russian and Moldova -- Romanian and
 2     Russian, so the audience we reach is much larger than
 3     our immediate ethnic community.
 4  1743                 We get 27.5 minutes of broadcasting
 5     time on Channel 10, Rogers, twice a month.  This means
 6     that we only reach about two-thirds of our community in
 7     the Toronto area because this particular cable company
 8     does not serve Thornhill, Scarborough and Richmond
 9     Hill.
10  1744                 We are attempting to get air time on
11     the local ethnic broadcasting station, but even when we
12     succeed we will not be able to reach our communities
13     all over Canada.
14  1745                 When we started to produce the show
15     two and a half years ago, we got some support from the
16     cable company.  We had access to editing equipment and
17     some studio time.  That support has been completely
18     withdrawn.  Our show is now self-produced.  The cable
19     company expected to get the finished tape of the
20     program and runs it at the agreed time.
21  1746                 When the cable company decided to
22     close all facilities to the ethnic program production,
23     our sister program, the Romanian program, had to close
24     down.  We only hang on because we are so absolutely
25     committed to keeping this cultural link going.  We are


 1     keeping the enthusiasm.
 2  1747                 We need more air time.  We need
 3     studio time.  We need editing facilities, if it is
 4     possible, but if not we have sponsors.  We need
 5     broadcasting access to the rest of our community.  I
 6     think I speak for other producers as well as myself
 7     when I ask for support.
 8  1748                 The content of our show is largely
 9     inside footage, so Canadian.  After all, we produce --
10     so, I feel very strongly -- I ask my colleague, Cecilia
11     Kutas to specifically answer some of the questions
12     posed in the CRTC's call for comments.
13  1749                 MS KUTAS:  Thank you, Irina.
14  1750                 The show Irina produces is largely
15     Canadian content.  It is produced here.  They want to
16     do the work, but they feel very strongly that it is
17     necessary to have a lot of foreign footage.  Foreign
18     footage makes the show more interesting and, by
19     definition, a third language broadcasting is going out
20     to people who are interested in things that are going
21     on outside of Canada, as well as getting acclimatized
22     to the system here.
23  1751                 As Irina's example of her own
24     experience has shown, the CRTC's present ethnocultural
25     policies have done a great job.  They have built up a


 1     system where a lot of communities have had the
 2     opportunity to get in touch with their own people in
 3     their language of comfort.  However, what she finds and
 4     we find as new broadcasters is that it is very hard to
 5     get your foot in the door.
 6  1752                 So, what we would like to see is the
 7     CRTC perhaps having a policy where they make it easier
 8     somehow for the new people to get established because
 9     as people are here longer, cultural communities are
10     here long they become stronger, they have more
11     contacts, they can do better for themselves.
12  1753                 Also, the mandate that they have for
13     their productions changes because when the community is
14     new everybody who is coming, they are just trying to
15     become Canadian to get acclimatized to know how to do
16     things as we have heard very eloquently expressed by
17     several of the speakers before us.
18  1754                 As the community becomes older it
19     becomes more important to keep the younger generation
20     in touch with their culture, and so the importance of
21     bringing in foreign footage increases.  So, what we
22     would like to recommend is that there be some leniency
23     in definition of Canadian content.  So, for instance,
24     if you had an ethnic host introducing foreign footage
25     that would go some way towards being considered


 1     Canadian content, or if you had foreign footage to
 2     which you applied subtitles, Canadian subtitles here,
 3     that would also go towards Canadian content because
 4     doing that not only increases -- it builds bridges
 5     towards other cultures because people might now decide
 6     this is an interesting show since they can understand
 7     what is going on because there are English subtitles.
 8  1755                 Finally, I cannot overemphasize the
 9     importance of maintaining other venues of broadcasting. 
10     For instance, the cable shows because these are where
11     the new broadcasters get their foot in the door and
12     they get experience and hopefully go on to other
13     production venues.
14  1756                 As I said before, as the ethnic
15     community becomes more established and gets more links
16     and more connections, then probably they can reduce
17     their reliance on help from the CRTC rules, and so as a
18     last proposal we would like to suggest that the CRTC
19     should implement a policy whereby it helps the
20     fledgling ethnic broadcasters when they are starting to
21     take root and perhaps weans its support over time as
22     the community becomes larger and as the demographics
23     change other communities need the help to come out.
24  1757                 Ladies and gentlemen, I thank you for
25     your attention and I hope that your deliberations will


 1     give us the support we seek.
 2  1758                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much
 3     to both of you for being here.
 4  1759                 MS RHÉAUME:  The next presentation is
 5     by Mr. Harry Chan.
 7  1760                 MR. CHAN:  Commissioners, ladies and
 8     gentlemen, I am the President of TYBA Properties
 9     Ontario Inc., a company that is dealing with land
10     development, especially in residential subdivisions. 
11     Obviously, I am not in the broadcast industry.
12  1761                 Like a lot of Chinese Canadians who
13     live in Metro, Markham and Mississauga, I am fortunate
14     to have access to the television programming that is
15     all Chinese and they are presented almost around the
16     clock, offered by Fairchild Television and complemented
17     by CFMT.  This has created a very comfortable
18     environment to live in and i must thank the CRTC for
19     its vision in creating this environment and I surely
20     applaud Canada for its multiculturalism which makes
21     this country so unique and comfortable.
22  1762                 While there are a lot of Chinese
23     Canadians like me which can switch from the mainstream
24     environment to the Chinese culture at ease, there are a
25     lot of them who can only rely on sources of daily news


 1     and information, especially those who are elderly, from
 2     television stations that are provided in the Chinese
 3     language.  However, there are a lot of them who are
 4     less fortunate due to geographic locality who don't
 5     have these services, say for example the subdivision
 6     that I am involved in in Whitby does not have this
 7     service.
 8  1763                 As a layman, when we were doing the
 9     promotion I do not know that the Chinese television
10     service is not broadcast in areas such as Whitby and in
11     Oakville.  It is only when we were asked by buyers
12     about this type of facilities or services that I know
13     that it is not available.  This prompted me to come
14     here to make this deposition.
15  1764                 As a conclusion, among all the issues
16     the Commission will take into account during this
17     policy review, I request that the Commission will
18     consider whether or not the purpose of a licensed
19     service has been fully served.  That is, the Commission
20     seriously look into the situation where a licensed
21     ethnic language service is not adequately delivered to
22     the community as the CRTC had intended, due to a lack
23     of cable capacity or a choice made by a cable company
24     to exclude that service.
25  1765                 Lastly, I thank the Commission for


 1     allowing me the opportunity to provide my comments in
 2     this hearing.
 3  1766                 Thank you.
 4  1767                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 5     much, Mr. Chan, for being with us.
 6  1768                 MS RHÉAUME:  The next presentation is
 7     by Mr. Mann Nacario.
 9  1769                 MR. NACARIO:  Commissioners, ladies
10     and gentlemen, good evening.  My name is Mann Nacario.
11  1770                 One objective that the Commission
12     aims to find in calling for these comments is the
13     importance of third language ethnic broadcast
14     programming.  I would like to comment on this by
15     sharing with you my experiences as producer of
16     "Philippine Sundae," a weekly half-hour show, and the
17     only TV show for the Filipino community, produced in
18     and aired from Toronto over CFMT Channel 47, Cable 4.
19  1771                 Let me start by recalling the
20     experiences of a friend from Southern Philippines, who
21     came to Toronto in 1972.  This friend had to talk to
22     people from his own country in the English language. 
23     Reason?  Because he could not speak in "Pilipino," the
24     Tagalog-based national language of the Philippines.  It
25     was not until after several years, and not until his


 1     marriage to his present wife and, by reason thereof had
 2     the opportunity to intermingle with her family that
 3     this friend learned to speak the national tongue.
 4  1772                 Another experience was that of a
 5     Filipino woman who, before coming to Canada in 1988,
 6     worked in Singapore.  This woman, from Central
 7     Philippines, confessed that it was in Singapore where
 8     she learned to speak the national language.  Had she
 9     not, otherwise, she would continue to be at a loss
10     whenever she would join other Filipino expatriates
11     during their socializations in that country.
12  1773                 These two experiences reflect
13     countless experiences by members of my community in the
14     past and the present times.  This is because the
15     Philippines, as an archipelago, although with three
16     major island groups, is composed of so many islands
17     that even I have forgotten the exact number.  Nearly
18     100 languages and dialects are spoken in the
19     Philippines.  These languages and dialects are derived
20     from many sources.  most of them are basically of
21     Austronesian or Malayo-Polynesian origin.  Many have
22     also taken words from Sanskrit, Arabic, Chinese,
23     Spanish and English.  The principal native languages
24     include Tagalog, Cebuano, Ilocano, Hiligaynon,
25     Waray-Waray, Bicol Pampango, Pangasinan, Maguindanao,


 1     Maranaw and Tausog.
 2  1774                 One good rationale for television is
 3     to educate.  And using "philippine Sundae' program as a
 4     model, being the only TV program for the Filipino
 5     community in Toronto, we, in the production staff,
 6     strive to attain this, among other purposes that we
 7     have set for the program.  I must say that in this
 8     objective we are succeeding, but only to a certain
 9     extent.
10  1775                 Under the program classification of
11     the CRTC, "philippine Sundae" is classified as falling
12     under Type D, defined as a program using a bilingual
13     mix of either French or English, plus a third language,
14     which in the case of my community is Tagalog.
15  1776                 At the onset of the production of
16     "Philippine Sundae' in 1996, we were solely using
17     English.  our reasoning then was that, with the dialect
18     barrier among Filipinos, it was better for us to use
19     English, a language that everybody understood. 
20     however, we received numerous comments from the
21     community, saying that "Since 'Philippine Sundae' is
22     our only TV program for the community, we could help
23     educate others in speaking and understanding our
24     national dialect.  Hence, in so doing, we could help
25     bridge the language gap among us Filipinos."


 1  1777                 So, in accord with the sentiments of
 2     our viewers, we reformatted "Philippine Sundae" to a
 3     Type D program.
 4  1778                 It was not easy though, since we have
 5     to change some people in the program for those who
 6     could not speak and write the national dialect to those
 7     who could write and speak it.  This was to keep up with
 8     the pulse of our target audience.  To this end, I must
 9     say that we are succeeding in the philosophy that we
10     have reset for the program.
11  1779                 However, I said earlier too that this
12     success was only partial.  Immediately, after we have
13     reformatted the TV show to conform to the composition
14     of our community, we figured in a slight problem with
15     our previous airing station, thus was forced to move to
16     our present station.  This brings us to Item No. 7 in
17     the call for comments issued by the CRTC, stating and I
18     quote, "How should the policy framework for ethnic
19     broadcasting be adapted to account for, and respond to
20     future demographic changes?"
21  1780                 Presently, there are only two TV
22     stations in Toronto that cater to ethnic broadcasting. 
23     However, these stations have a mix of mainstream and
24     ethnic programs in their programming.  With such mix,
25     however, and I am stressing that this is not meant as


 1     an attack to multicultural stations, both radio and TV,
 2     but ethnic shows are relegated to unpopular slots.  On
 3     this, it is sad to say, that sometimes even I, as an
 4     ethnic program producer, could only hope that someone
 5     out there is watching the show.
 6  1781                 The assignment of ethnic programs to
 7     unpopular slots also results to losses for us
 8     producers; our advertisers are running away.  And the
 9     consequences of this need no longer be outlined here
10     for, as you know, advertisers are the bread and butter
11     of production endeavours.
12  1782                 Taking my community as a model, the
13     1996 Statistics Canada figures show that Tagalog is the
14     seventh language largely spoken in Toronto.  But as I
15     mentioned earlier, the Tagalog dialect is one of the
16     nearly 100 dialects spoken in the Philippines.  This
17     means that the statistics did not reflect the dialects
18     spoken by Filipinos who came and reside in Toronto,
19     whose major tongues are other than English and Tagalog.
20  1783                 Based on the same 1996 census,
21     figures show that in Metropolitan Toronto, Filipinos
22     are the fourth largest visible minority.  An article in
23     the Saturday Star last January 23 projected that the
24     next year, visible minorities will represent 54 per
25     cent of the total makeup of Metro Toronto's population. 


 1     With this in mind, it is very timely than ever that
 2     this call for comments by the CRTC is heard at this
 3     time, in its attempt to serve the needs and interests
 4     of our diverse groups.
 5  1784                 As the CRTC itself stated in its call
 6     for comments and I quote, "For some ethnocultural
 7     communities, market forces may be sufficient to ensure
 8     that their interests are adequately served.  At the
 9     same time, some policy framework may still be necessary
10     to provide for other ethnocultural communities."
11  1785                 In view of the foregoing, and again
12     taking my community and our only TV program as models,
13     I humbly submit that, in recap, the following be taken
14     into consideration by the CRTC in its Policy Review on
15     Third language and Ethnic Programming:
16  1786                 Number one, radio and television
17     stations which offer mix programming be required to
18     allot a portion of all times that are considered as TV
19     prime time to ethnic programming.
20  1787                 Number two, to require radio and TV
21     stations to occasionally plug their ethnic programs
22     aimed at helping the marketing efforts of independent
23     ethnic TV producers.
24  1788                 Thank you so much for the opportunity
25     of being heard, with an end in view of assisting you in


 1     your policy review.
 2  1789                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 3     much, Mr. Nacario.
 4  1790                 MS RHÉAUME:  The next presentation is
 5     by Mr. Ace Alvarez of the Manila Media Monitor.
 7  1791                 MR. ALVAREZ:  Thank you so much,
 8     Commissioners.
 9  1792                 My name is Ace Alvarez and i am the
10     editor of Manila Media Monitor, a monthly paper aimed
11     at the Filipino community and I am also the news writer
12     for "Philippine Sundae," the only television show for
13     my community, I mean that's in Toronto.
14  1793                 This means that I am engaged both in
15     print and broadcast journalism and my boss in the
16     broadcast media was the speaker ahead of me, Mr. Mann
17     Nacario, so I must be careful with what I say here,
18     otherwise I am fired.
19  1794                 I am here today to share with you my
20     thoughts for consideration in your policy review.  In
21     the several years that I have lived in Toronto, I have
22     continually monitored ethnic broadcast programs aimed
23     at my community.  it's sad to note, however, that in
24     some programs, past and present, and that's the key
25     word, man, the contents were, and are, lacking of depth


 1     relative to the generally accepted philosophy of
 2     broadcasting.
 3  1795                 Using some of the past and present
 4     programs aimed at my community as models, in most cases
 5     the excuse for being tagged as a Filipino program is
 6     the music that were and are played in the program.  i
 7     say this without undermining the value of Filipino
 8     music.  But what I am saying is that since it is
 9     difficult to get time slots for ethnic programs from
10     stations that accommodate them, i am suggesting that
11     content be spent more on developmental and more
12     informative issues that affect the particular community
13     that the program is aimed at.
14  1796                 Likewise, taking again broadcast
15     programs aimed at my community as models, I have
16     noticed that most programs really stopped to the level
17     of an exclusive public relations vehicle for their
18     advertisers, unmindful of fairness and equity surround
19     an issue.  I find no blame though for our broadcasters,
20     since, with limited advertisers, and considering the
21     difficulty of finding them, their advertisers are the
22     ones sustaining the programs.  I must admit, though,
23     that in my own paper this also happens and i must admit
24     that I am guilty of the same journalistic violation.
25  1797                 Of course, the CRTC does not notice


 1     this because, in most cases, programs use the language
 2     of their particular target audience or a mix with
 3     English.  Our ethnic broadcasters are able to get away
 4     from this because of the absence of a group who
 5     understands the language used to police ethnic
 6     programs.
 7  1798                 In view of the above, I am
 8     recommending that the CRTC spearhead the formulation of
 9     a group composed of respected members from each
10     particular community to serve as something like an
11     ombudsman.  This group will occasionally monitor and
12     police particular programs with pertinence to CRTC
13     rules and regulations applicable on specific instances,
14     and/or that may be drafted and implemented by the CRTC
15     in the future.  The group may also serve as a
16     resolution body on complaints that may be addressed
17     relative to particular programs.
18  1799                 If this is done it will help upgrade
19     to the highest standards or meet the highest standards
20     and quality programming of ethnic broadcasting.
21  1800                 Thank you so much for the opportunity
22     to share with you my thoughts.
23  1801                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
24     much, Mr. Alvarez.
25  1802                 MS RHÉAUME:  The next presentation


 1     will be by Ms Anna Bailao on behalf of Mr. Mario Silva
 2     who is a Councillor and for the Portuguese Association
 3     of the University of Toronto.
 5  1803                 MR. SILVA:  Can I get that title
 6     right.  Actually, I am Councillor Mario Silva from the
 7     City of Toronto.  Although sometimes I feel I am
 8     counselling people, I am a City Councillor and I
 9     represent Trinity Niagara, which is Ward 20.  It's a
10     downtown west end ward.  It's one of the few wards in
11     the City of Toronto where English speaking does not
12     make up the majority of the constituents that I
13     represent.
14  1804                 I have represented this ward for the
15     past four years and had the pleasure of working with
16     various multicultural groups.  It is predominantly --
17     the community is made up of -- about 40 per cent of the
18     people are Portuguese speaking, which is what my
19     background is as well.  We have as well a large
20     Chinese, Vietnamese, and at one time a very large
21     Jewish and Italian community, but that is no longer the
22     case any more, but certainly large communities at one
23     time, but it still has some of its history and flavour.
24  1805                 Some of the areas you probably might
25     be familiar with would be areas like Little Italy, for


 1     example, where Sophia Loren just had lunch yesterday. 
 2     So it's a very popular place to go out and dine in the
 3     City of Toronto.  It's rich in its history, its culture
 4     and multiculturalism plays an important role.
 5  1806                 It is also the ward that has two very
 6     important multicultural radio stations and a very
 7     important multicultural television station.  It has the
 8     CHIN Radio which, of course, everybody is quite
 9     familiar with and the amount of work it has done over
10     the years in promotion of the various cultural groups
11     in our city, and also CIRV-FM which is another
12     multi-cultural radio station that is also within the
13     ward.
14  1807                 In addition to that, in the Lakeshore
15     side, which is also part of my ward, there is
16     multilculture television, MTV, Channel 47, which you
17     know broadcasts in different languages.
18  1808                 I am here, and I don't have any
19     prepared text, but I am here basically to lend my
20     support to the fact of the importance that
21     multicultural television, radio, the information that
22     is provided to the various communities.  It is so
23     essential at times to get those messages out to those
24     communities in the languages they understand.
25  1809                 We, at the City of Toronto, know that


 1     Toronto is one of the most multicultural cities in
 2     North America and have been able to provide information
 3     over the years in many different languages.  I think it
 4     is because we realize that the multicultural
 5     communities play a very important role in the dynamics
 6     of our city and what makes Toronto, according to
 7     Fortune magazine as one of the greatest cities in the
 8     world to live in.  It is because of the richness of our
 9     cultures, our diversity and how well it works together.
10  1810                 The reason it works together in part
11     has to do with the role also the media plays in
12     informing people.  One of the ways we get our messages
13     across is in those various languages.  The one way that
14     people understand and are able to get informed and feel
15     part of the system of what is happening in municipal
16     government and, in fact, all levels of government.  So,
17     I cannot emphasize enough the important role that the
18     multicultural radio stations, which are so much a part
19     of our heritage, that is as a Canadian because at the
20     end of the day we are talking about what Canada is. 
21     Canada is by its Constitution a multicultural society. 
22     We have to always understand that when we are talking
23     about the multicultural communities we really are
24     talking about our Canadian heritage and I think that is
25     so important.


 1  1811                 The important role that these
 2     particular stations have played and, of course, I don't
 3     want to neglect as well the print media and I realize
 4     we are not here to discuss that.  That's also another
 5     important component of how they get that information
 6     out to the various communities and making sure that
 7     they are aware of what is happening at city hall.
 8  1812                 It is incredible, it has a profound
 9     effect on our decision-making because we know that the
10     communities are listening there in the various
11     languages and they do pick up the message and they do
12     call their councillors and want to know what is going
13     on and everything else and get clarification.
14  1813                 So, especially in the City of
15     Toronto, the information that has been broadcast in
16     different languages have been immeasurable and I think
17     it really makes a difference when we talk about
18     Toronto, the great liveable city.  I would attribute a
19     large part of that having to do with the fact that they
20     are informed, they are aware, they are participating,
21     they realize that this is their city.
22  1814                 So, I would certainly like to
23     congratulate the CRTC for having that vision, that
24     understanding of the importance of providing
25     programming in those languages and want to encourage


 1     the CRTC to keep up with that mandate because I think
 2     it is so important to making things work for our city
 3     and for our country.
 4  1815                 I am here as well if anybody has any
 5     questions as well to answer, but in the short time
 6     because I have to go back to Council, but just to let
 7     you know of my support for the different communities.
 8  1816                 I have as well somebody who works --
 9     Anna Bailao, by the way, is my special assistant in my
10     office.  She was the former President of the University
11     of Toronto portuguese Association, which I was also at
12     one time the President.  I was also the director at one
13     time of University College, University of Toronto, so I
14     have always kept busy with both my cultural community,
15     but was also very active in my university life with all
16     the different -- whether it was a newspaper, student
17     council, and I think those are important.
18  1817                 Also, Monica as well is here from the
19     Association as well, just to lend I think our support
20     to the policy of the CRTC which I think was the right
21     policy at this time and how we should be preserving
22     that particular policy.
23  1818                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
24     Councillor Silva.  We appreciate the presence of all of
25     you and the significance.  Councillor Silva, you


 1     weren't here when I said that we wouldn't be asking any
 2     questions today because we have such a full agenda.
 3  1819                 But one of the things we have been
 4     talking a lot about is the issue of language.  I just
 5     wanted to point out that the use of the word
 6     "councillor" for you in particular, even though it is
 7     spelled incorrectly, is not so much a spelling mistake
 8     as it is an issue of language.  You might be interested
 9     to know that in French Commissioners are also know as
10     "le conseiller".
11  1820                 So, it's probably more an issue of
12     language.  It's an example of multiculturalism at work.
13  1821                 MR. SILVA:  Voila.
14  1822                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for being
15     with us.
16  1823                 MR. SILVA:  I also note that I am the
17     only Councillor on the French Committee of the City of
18     Toronto and also the only one who speaks French in our
19     city.
20  1824                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good.  So you
21     understood that word.
22  1825                 MR. SILVA:  Toujours.  Merci.
23  1826                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
24     much.
25  1827                 MS RHÉAUME:  Our next presenter is


 1     Chris Martzokas of the Hellenic National Congress.
 3  1828                 MR. MARTZOKAS:  Madam Chairman, my
 4     name is Chris martzokas and I am a member of the
 5     National Council of the Hellenic Canadian Congress.
 6  1829                 Our organization oversees the affairs
 7     of 350,000 Greeks in this great land.  I am here today,
 8     and I will be very brief, to address the three issues
 9     you have given us to examine.  The first issue is to
10     what extent the present broadcasting system serves the
11     ethnocultural class of Canada.
12  1830                 It is really iron, but in the early
13     seventies when everybody was dreaming of
14     ethno-culturalism, the federal government sent some of
15     us on a voluntary basis, Mrs. Irene Chu, the lady
16     there, and some other people to the Polytechnic
17     Institute to learn broadcasting and go back and serve
18     our communities.  That was the years when everybody was
19     dreaming.
20  1831                 What happened 20 years later?  What
21     happened to all these policies?  Let me tell you.  Our
22     first access in broadcasting was community channels. 
23     It was the cable station offered to the communities. 
24     This channel eventually dried out.  It went to the grey
25     area, the same as commercialism there.  So a lot of


 1     communities lost the access in this avenue.
 2  1832                 Then, we have the multicultural
 3     channel which was a wonderful thing, but eventually
 4     what we find out was money, the profit, if you weren't
 5     marketable you didn't have a voice, you couldn't
 6     address your people.
 7  1833                 So, I would say in the short form
 8     whatever you have was serving our communities in the
 9     past but not any more.  We have to look for new
10     avenues.
11  1834                 The second question is about the
12     demographics.  I would like to assure you that not all
13     the Greeks live in the Danforth or Park Street in
14     Montreal.  We moved.  We have people in Alberta.  We
15     have farmers, in all industries.  We have miners in
16     Quebec.  We have loggers in British Columbia and these
17     people would like to have some access to ethnic
18     broadcasting.
19  1835                 The last and the most important
20     issue, I would like to start from the bottom, I would
21     say that language accounts for -- it's not a static
22     thing.  It evolves.  So there is a need for us to touch
23     base with the point of origin, to follow up the
24     evolution of the culture and from where it came from.
25  1836                 So, some important services won't be


 1     harmed if it is regulated by the CRTC.  One thing we
 2     don't want to see is direct broadcasting from foreign
 3     lands to ethnocultural groups.  We want to see whatever
 4     comes from overseas comes down, is given to a Canadian
 5     provider and have Canadian content and all the money
 6     comes and the proceeds from the advertising stay in
 7     Canada, be taxed in Canada and help then produce
 8     Canadian programs and integrate one package which is
 9     going to be good for us -- to all of us.
10  1837                 The other thing which is a little bit
11     difficult to explain, let's not forget broadcasting for
12     a lot of us is language, culture and entertainment, but
13     to some people it's power and money.  We, the
14     communities, we don't like this power to be
15     concentrated in the hands of a few and we want the
16     community to be close to those things, not to be far
17     away because we feel we are losing it.  The small
18     communities have no way to communicate.
19  1838                 This is the message we bring to you
20     today.  We are not afraid -- nobody can stop technology
21     from coming to us.  We must be able to regulate it.
22  1839                 We go to the foreign lands and you
23     must be aware that we hear foreign broadcasts through
24     the Internet, on the radio, and God knows in three or
25     four years' time maybe we see foreign television, but


 1     doing that your role is going to be obsolete.  You
 2     cannot control it.  So, this issue today here is you
 3     have to deliver something new.  Like the Greek
 4     community is 350,000 people and many communities are
 5     large.  They cannot be accommodated with two hours of
 6     programming a week.
 7  1840                 Our organization, the National
 8     Congress, needs to have a voice, a co-ordinated voice. 
 9     So, I think these special channels, we care if you
10     monitor them, but I think it is partially the answer to
11     our problem or to our future in broadcasting.
12  1841                 Thank you very much.
13  1842                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
14     much, Mr. Martzokas.
15  1843                 MS RHÉAUME:  The next presentation is
16     by Mr. Freddy Fenech of the Lehan Malti Television
17     Program.
18  1844                 MR. ATTARD:  Sorry, it is not Freddy
19     Fenech.  It is Frank Attard.  Freddy Fenech is my
20     co-producer.
21  1845                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
22  1846                 MR. ATTARD:  Unfortunately, he is not
23     here.
25  1847                 MR. ATTARD:  Jien u I-kollega shabi


 1     tal-program etniku 'Lehen Malti' qed naghmlu din
 2     il-prezentazzjoni quddiemkhom dwar il-programmi
 3     televissivi u tar-radio entici li huma mportanti ghall
 4     komunatijiet etnici mdawrin madwar il-provincja ta'
 5     Ontario.
 6  1848                 My name is Frank Attard, co-producer
 7     of the Maltese TV program "Lehen Malti" which is shown
 8     weekly on CFMT Multilingual TV station, Channel 47,
 9     every Saturday morning at 9:30 a.m. and repeated on
10     Sundays at 6;30 a.m..  With me I have my colleague,
11     Mrs. Marlene Muscat, newscaster.
12  1849                 In my opening statement in my native
13     tongue Maltese, today my colleagues and I are making
14     this presentation before you about ethnic TV and radio
15     programs that are very important for the ethnic
16     communities in Ontario.
17  1850                 Thirty thousand Maltese people live
18     around Ontario with the majority living in Toronto and
19     surrounding areas.  Another 10,000 live in the rest of
20     Canada.
21  1851                 We have been doing this program for
22     the past 26 years, first at Channel 10 Community TV
23     station, which only served part of the west end area of
24     Toronto, and for the past 10 years at CFMT Multilingual
25     TV Station, Channel 47.  We are very grateful that CFMT


 1     gave us the air time, although the Maltese community is
 2     very small compared to other ethnic communities in
 3     Ontario.  We do this program voluntarily, no income,
 4     but service to the Maltese community.  You know what it
 5     takes to produce a half hour TV program, and although
 6     we have no resources except from a Maltese MID-MED Bank
 7     which we are grateful to, who pays for the production
 8     time.
 9  1852                 You might ask why do we do this
10     program voluntarily, because we know that the Maltese
11     community needs and deserves a TV program which keeps
12     them informed of what is happening in Malta and around
13     the Maltese community in Ontario.
14  1853                 Although most maltese people
15     understand and speak the English language, they feel
16     more comfortable listening and speaking their own
17     language and we are sure that other ethnic communities
18     feel the same way.
19  1854                 To our knowledge, there are only two
20     TV stations in ontario that service the ethnic
21     communities, namely CFMT and Fairchild Television. 
22     There are radio stations like CHIN-FM who serve the
23     ethnic communities.  The CRTC has attained a
24     satisfactory degree of effectiveness in servicing the
25     cultural and linguistic diversity in Canada.


 1  1855                 We think it is essential for the
 2     Commission to look towards improvements in having more
 3     ethnic TV and radio air time.  Canada is a
 4     multicultural country and it is very essential that our
 5     children watch and learn more about their parents' home
 6     country.
 7  1856                 Thank you.
 8  1857                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 9     much, Mr. Attard.
10  1858                 MS RHÉAUME:  The next presentation
11     will be by Dr. Dragi Denkovski, Dragica Belchevski and
12     Nikola Belchevski of the Macedonian radio program.
14  1859                 MR. N. BELCHEVSKI:  Dr. Dragi
15     Denkovski is not here, but I think he will be coming
16     later on, a little bit.  He probably had a bad tooth
17     that somebody had.
18  1860                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is he a dentist?
19  1861                 MR. N. BELCHEVSKI:  Yes.
20  1862                 MS D. BELCHEVSKI:  Ladies and
21     gentlemen, good evening.  I will start, but my English
22     is not so good, but what I am going to say I am going
23     to say with all my heart.
24  1863                 This year the Macedonian radio
25     program Voice of Macedonia, which is on the CHIN


 1     station, is celebrating its 30th birthday.  To be at
 2     CHIN station really I am so proud to be with Mr. Johnny
 3     Lombardi who is going to be I am sure in the history
 4     for all ethnic programs at the CHIN station.
 5  1864                 I would like to thank him, the CHIN
 6     family and even as a father to the CHIN family and even
 7     to Canada who helps us -- who gives us the opportunity
 8     to expose our heritage, our tradition, our history of
 9     all ethnic programs.  Maybe that's why we call Canada
10     the champion of democracy.
11  1865                 In my program I have more than
12     100,000 Macedonian listeners and even other people who
13     understand the Macedonian language, Slavic people.  The
14     Macedonian program, Voice of Macedonia, is not just for
15     Macedonians.  It is for other ethnic groups, even who
16     understand how I say the Macedonian language, but I
17     have a youth program for the youth people, for a new
18     generation who are born here.  That is an informatic
19     program, a program for kids giving like health,
20     alternative medicine, history and the other things, but
21     especially I am proud to say the most popular is when I
22     am raising money, especially for sick people, churches
23     or even for the Sick Children's Hospital.
24  1866                 I am going to say that four years ago
25     I raised for four Macedonian churches I raised $110,000


 1     and I said for four churches, in five programs of about
 2     15 to 20 minutes.  I am really proud of my people, not
 3     just Macedonians I said, but other people who are
 4     helping.
 5  1867                 I am proud of Suzana Kazakouvka who
 6     had cancer.  In that five programs for 15 or 20 minutes
 7     and each program I raised $35,000 and for Sick
 8     Children's Hospital I raised for three days almost
 9     $5,000.  That's why I am going to say this program is a
10     help to the people, not just to expose our Macedonian
11     heritage.
12  1868                 The Macedonian people are proud to
13     listen to his program because they know Macedonia is
14     far away, but to listen and to hear up-to-date all the
15     activities and everything.  When I start I start always
16     with the meaning of a Macedonia hero who said, "I
17     understand the word as a field of cultural competition
18     around the whole people in the world," and even I think
19     the same way.  I mean he is dead.  He was killed in
20     1903, but my goal is to continue helping everybody,
21     even my community, because in front of God we say we
22     have just good and bad persons.
23  1869                 Again, I will say because Macedonia
24     is far away, this is our new motherland.  Canada is
25     everything that we have.  That's why we have to be


 1     loyal, to build a better Canada for her future, even
 2     for her citizens.  Thanks to Canada.  Even thanks to
 3     Mr. Lombardi and the CHIN family.
 4  1870                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
 5     Belchevski.  In spite of the fact that you think you
 6     may not speak English very well, I heard your message
 7     loud and clear.
 8  1871                 MS D. BELCHEVSKI:  Thank you.
 9  1872                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  It was very
10     passionately put.  Thank you.
11  1873                 MS D. BELCHEVSKI:  I said that is
12     from my heart.
13  1874                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.
14  1875                 MR. N. BELCHEVSKI:  Dr. Denkovski is
15     here.  Would you like to hear him first?
16  1876                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is really up to
17     you.
18  1877                 He said he thought you were late
19     maybe because you had a toothache.  So, how's your
20     tooth?
21  1878                 DR. DENKOVSKI:  (Inaudible)
22  1879                 MR. N. BELCHEVSKI:  Maybe I should
23     say a few words until he is ready.
24  1880                 My name is Nikola Belchevski.  I am
25     the husband of Dragica and I will try to speak a little


 1     better in the way of pronouncing the words a little
 2     better, not that I could speak better than her.  I am
 3     sure she has better thoughts most of the time because
 4     she is on the air most of the time.  I am a co-producer
 5     and I help my wife.
 6  1881                 I am an artist by profession.  I am a
 7     sculptor and I would like to mention that when I came
 8     here I was 18 years old.  I couldn't say one word in
 9     English.  I arrived in Montreal and I remember I asked
10     somebody what time it is and that was the only thing I
11     knew how to say.  This man answered me and I didn't
12     know what he said, but at least I was happy that he
13     answered something, so he understood those few words.
14  1882                 Anyway, I would like to say that we
15     have a program that is on CHIN Radio from 7:30 to 8:00
16     p.m. Monday to Friday on 1540 AM and on 100.7 FM, with
17     a big family that I believe, as she mentioned, that Mr.
18     Lombardi is the true father and I was very happy to
19     meet this man and find out how much he cares, not for
20     the Italians, but also for the rest of the community
21     and all the languages.
22  1883                 I didn't know there were other
23     stations and everybody is doing a good job.  I don't
24     know if anybody can beat Mr. Lombardi.
25  1884                 Anyway, our program -- I wrote a few


 1     words and so maybe I should read them.  Ethnic-language
 2     programs offer invaluable information services or
 3     political exchanges and cultural and artistic
 4     presentations to communities that broadcast in one of
 5     the official languages simply cannot access.
 6  1885                 The reason is straightforward.  If
 7     one does not understand English or French, then one is
 8     left out.  A very important aspect of ethnic-language
 9     programming is that it assists members of a specific
10     community gain an understanding of the larger Canadian
11     society.
12  1886                 Young children who arrive in Canada
13     quickly learn, as we all know, to communicate in
14     English or French.  However, many people who come to
15     this country as adults simply do not have the same
16     opportunity or aptitude for learning new languages. 
17     That process is often slow and frustrating.  This is
18     especially where ethnic language programming is
19     significant.
20  1887                 It is through programs such as Voice
21     of Macedonia on CHIN that many thousands have become
22     familiar with Canadian customs and values.  Ethnic
23     programs are the window through which new Canadians are
24     exposed to the Canadian way of life in a language they
25     can understand.


 1  1888                 Political figures are well aware of
 2     this.  In fact, they often participate in this program
 3     and sometimes they are our guests.
 4  1889                 Ethnic-language programs fill a niche
 5     or a gap.  They reach out to the groups of people that
 6     would otherwise be omitted from the social discourse. 
 7     They serve as a traditional buffer for many on the road
 8     to becoming well-established Canadians.
 9  1890                 I could cite an abundance of specific
10     examples, but I believe the point is self-evident. 
11     Ethnic-language programs are the key stepping stones on
12     the Canadian journey.  They soften the transition and
13     accelerate the Canadianization, and I don't know how
14     you say this word, as new or chosen Canadians -- of the
15     newest members.  In other words, I should say that the
16     process is much softer when they hear their language on
17     the radio.
18  1891                 I myself came to Canada as an
19     immigrant when I was 18 years old, as I mentioned.  I
20     couldn't say any words, but I learned.  I went to the
21     Art College here and I went back and I studied a little
22     bit and I came back and I raised my family and I am
23     very proud and I believe without all this programming I
24     believe that Canada is doing a wonderful thing.  I
25     really don't know the reason why we are all here. 


 1     There is some kind of hidden agenda, I don't know why
 2     we are all here.  I never find out really.
 3  1892                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you mean here at
 4     this consultation or here on this earth?
 5  1893                 MR. N. BELCHEVSKI:  No, here at this
 6     consultation.  On this earth I don't know.  There must
 7     be a reason.
 8  1894                 But I believe whatever is the reason
 9     that I am happy to speak on behalf of my people and I
10     don't often speak on the radio, as my wife does most of
11     the time, she talks.  I want to say -- and that's why
12     she -- Dr. Denkovski mentioned that she does most of
13     the time in Macedonian and she does in English too, but
14     as you have all heard is not --
15  1895                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'd stop there if I
16     was you.
17  1896                 MR. N. BELCHEVSKI:  Yes, that's it.
18  1897                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I think I am
19     beginning to understand how that nose got broken.
20  1898                 MR. N. BELCHEVSKI:  That's it, yes.
21  1899                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I'd be very
22     careful.
23  1900                 MR. N. BELCHEVSKI:  Am I one of the
24     best or I should say the funniest speaker here?
25  1901                 I would like to continue a little bit


 1     and be more serious.  Our reflection of history and
 2     religion of the Macedonian people and the language, the
 3     folklore, the customs, the traditions of our people is
 4     supported by the freedom of expression that Macedonians
 5     enjoy in Canada.  We have become good citizens of this
 6     wonderful country of ours.
 7  1902                 Many of us were born here as
 8     Canadians.  Also many came to Canada as chosen
 9     immigrants who have contributed tremendously to the
10     prosperity and the wealth of this great country.
11  1903                 I would like to end it right there
12     and thank everybody.  I have a few more words.  To
13     withdraw ethnic-language programming it might well
14     result in the Balkanization, as we all know, of the
15     communities.
16  1904                 I strongly believe that such
17     programming helps to build bridges among the various
18     ethnic groups or ethnic communities and is perhaps the
19     most important bridge between those communities and the
20     larger Canadian family.  Ethnic-language programming is
21     the right way and I really and truly believe in this
22     and I should say I wouldn't be here if Mr. Lombardi,
23     this guy who is also very funny and a smart man, who
24     has done and given me this opportunity and also to
25     thank Canada for having -- and that's why Canada is


 1     rich.  Because we all come from many different parts
 2     and join together.  As Macedonians say, we join the
 3     Macedonian oro and oro is a circle and everybody dance. 
 4     So, it's nice to keep this circle together and let life
 5     continue.
 6  1905                 Thank you.
 7  1906                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 8     Belchevski.
 9  1907                 Just in quick response to your
10     comment about the hidden agenda.  If there is one, it's
11     so well hidden that I am not aware of it.  I think we
12     are just here to hear what you have to say and take
13     this all back and try and make some sense out of it.
14  1908                 MR. N. BELCHEVSKI:  I didn't mean it
15     in a bad way.
16  1909                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's good.  I
17     just wanted to make sure.
18  1910                 MR. N. BELCHEVSKI:  Thank you.
19  1911                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Dr. Denkovski, I
20     don't know if each of you thought you were going to
21     have 10 minutes, but we do have a very full agenda, so
22     I would encourage you to be as succinct as possible.
23  1912                 DR. DENKOVSKI:  I heard that you get
24     really upset if somebody speaks too much and Nikola did
25     a little bit more.


 1  1913                 MR. N. BELCHEVSKI:  I'm leaving.
 2  1914                 DR. DENKOVSKI:  But I am going to be
 3     short.
 4  1915                 Honourable members of the Canadian
 5     Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, I
 6     am very pleased to be able to talk on this occasion of
 7     the reviewing of the ethnic broadcasting policy which
 8     was established in 1985, and CHIN Radio and CFMT-TV
 9     have done really a lot to our community and to all the
10     ethnic communities in this country.
11  1916                 These programs, which are in our own
12     languages, particular Dragica's program in Macedonian,
13     has done a lot and a great contribution to our
14     community.  I am the President for the second time in
15     our biggest church, St. Clement, and also the President
16     of the Academic Society, and I was for about 10 years
17     President of the Athletic Club of Macedonia which was
18     really quite successful, and I know how much this
19     program meant to our community, to our children, to our
20     parents especially.
21  1917                 I know my mother at 7:30 she is
22     always by the radio.  I have been a few times to a few
23     doughnut shops, drinking coffee and talking politics
24     and 7:30 everybody goes out in the car to hear what
25     Dragica is going to say.  Really, that amazed me a lot


 1     when I saw all the Macedonians at 7:30 going out to
 2     their car to hear Dragica, to hear the news from the
 3     old country, to hear the news from our community, from
 4     our church, from our various organizations.  This
 5     program is very essential to our community, but not
 6     only to our community but to every community that I
 7     know, whether it is Greek or Serbian or Ukrainian or
 8     Croatian or any that I know this program is watched and
 9     listened to a lot, especially for the elderly people
10     and people that don't speak much Macedonian and it
11     helps the new immigrants also to cope better with the
12     Canadian way of life, to become better and more loyal
13     citizens of this country, of this great country.
14  1918                 It helps a lot to maintain our
15     language, our culture and in contributing a lot to the
16     multiethnic cultural mosaic of this great country of
17     Canada which is unique in the world.  I think this
18     program must continue really.  These are very essential
19     and very important programs that the CRTC is doing and
20     should continue for a long time.
21  1919                 Thank you very much.
22  1920                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
23     much.
24  1921                 MR. N. BELCHEVSKI:  May I say just
25     one more thing?  I just remembered because I forgot and


 1     Dr. Denkovski reminded me.
 2  1922                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  You have one
 3     minute.
 4  1923                 MR. N. BELCHEVSKI:  I forgot to
 5     mention because I was flipping papers here, is this the
 6     place where you ask for more time or should I say it to
 7     Mr. Lombardi?
 8  1924                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  You should probably
 9     to Mr. Lombardi.  This is not the place where you ask
10     for more time.
11  1925                 MR. N. BELCHEVSKI:  We do have half
12     an hour, but we are very happy that we are every day
13     except Sunday -- I mean except Saturday.  I forgot to
14     mention it is Monday to Friday and also on Sunday, but
15     only a half an hour.  So, I know if I win the lottery I
16     might get more time.
17  1926                 Thank you.
18  1927                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Thanks
19     for being with us.
20  1928                 Madam Secretary.
21  1929                 MS RHÉAUME:  The next presenter is
22     Mr. Pab Di-lulio of the Columbus Centre.
24  1930                 MR. DI-LULIO:  Hello, Madam Chair,
25     Commissioners.  Good evening.  Thank you very much for


 1     this opportunity.
 2  1931                 In the past 10 or 15 years I have
 3     written many letters to your Commission, generally
 4     supporting third-language broadcasting and some of the
 5     individual applicants.  I thought I had 10 extra
 6     minutes today to come down and see what actually
 7     happens at a CRTC meeting and so here's where I am.
 8  1932                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is it exciting?
 9  1933                 MR. DI-LULIO:  It is terribly
10     exciting and this man should also ask for more money,
11     not just more air time.
12  1934                 I am here as the Executive Director
13     of something called the Villa Charities.  It's a
14     charitable non-profit organization in Toronto,
15     generally located at Dufferin and Lawrence.  It's an
16     umbrella group that over the past 25 years has
17     developed and oversees and operates Villa Colombo Home
18     for the Aged.  Approximately 400 people live there in a
19     home for the aged.  Many thousands of people are there
20     for all kinds of senior services.
21  1935                 We have two highrise apartment
22     buildings, Casa del Zoto and Caboto Terrace. 
23     Approximately 600 people live in these apartment
24     buildings.  The average age in both the home and the
25     apartment buildings is somewhere between 75 and 90,


 1     that's the average age and, of course, the median
 2     language is some form of Italian.
 3  1936                 As well, there is Columbus Centre
 4     which is a social, cultural and recreational centre
 5     with an art gallery.  We try to showcase, be a bridge,
 6     be a piazza and share whatever we have that is good to
 7     offer to multicultural Metropolitan Toronto.  As well,
 8     we have something called Vita Community Living
 9     Services, whereby we look after on a 24-hour basis over
10     200 people in our group homes and our day programs for
11     developmentally handicapped adults.
12  1937                 Now, I mention this, as well as
13     saying that we have large budgets and we have about 500
14     employees, not to try to impress you, but because the
15     particular group of which I am part of, that is the
16     Italian-Canadian community, is somewhere between the
17     last pioneer group and the first immigrant group in
18     Toronto in terms of size, in terms of some of the
19     established organizations that it has and the
20     infrastructures.
21  1938                 But I am also here because I think in
22     our particular case our group is as much as, in a
23     sense, what third language ethnic broadcasting has been
24     and here's what I mean.  When we started off int he
25     early seventies we had some wonderful people, good


 1     intentions, great ideas, but we soon realized that all
 2     of that was for naught unless we were able to
 3     communicate and share these ideas, these dreams, these
 4     visions with literally a half a million people of
 5     Italian origin who were out there and who then spoke a
 6     lot less English than they may do now.
 7  1939                 We were able to probably on one
 8     occasion when all the stars aligned, we were able to
 9     get four or five of the major media players and have a
10     telethon.  Now, a telethon in Italian, whereby you had
11     the likes of the original CFMT, you had the likes of
12     CityTV, you had the likes of Masha and Channel 11
13     ethnic language broadcasting and CHIN and you align all
14     of these people together.  I think in almost one fell
15     swoop we were able to get the confidence of the
16     community that led us to the successes of which I have
17     spoken to you about.
18  1940                 Since then it is almost a daily,
19     continual discussion that we have through this media
20     with our community that allows us to be and to frankly
21     grow over the past 25 years.  So, I am here to say that
22     it is important, it works and I guess to some degree we
23     are living proof that the partners in this great
24     adventure that we call community and the word
25     "community" will be used many, many times in this room


 1     and we all mean different things by that, but whatever
 2     we mean, I can tell you that in our case whatever you
 3     know to be the Italian-Canadian community has been
 4     affected and has been moulded by the media and the
 5     media has allowed the particular organization that I am
 6     the Executive Director of to be successful.
 7  1941                 So, I believe that on a very personal
 8     note I can tell you that my mother and father rely on
 9     CFMT, CHIN Radio on a daily basis.  It's their heart
10     and soul.  It's their lifeline to the greater world
11     that is Canada and somehow these stations interpret,
12     give them this window of opportunity that otherwise
13     they would be shut out of.
14  1942                 I am sorry, my mother isn't quite
15     ready for prime time CBC in the morning.  It's nice.  I
16     listen to it.  There is a gradual growth and a
17     progression and a changing of times, but for my mother,
18     my father and many others, brothers and sisters and
19     uncles out there, ethnic broadcasting is what keeps
20     them in touch, what keeps them knowledgeable, and by
21     that I don't necessarily I mean ethnic broadcasting
22     that is broadcast via an international satellite from
23     all over the world.  That's nice, that's wonderful.  I
24     am talking about third language local ethnic
25     broadcasting.  That is what is inclusive.  That is what


 1     is reflective of who we are and what we are becoming
 2     and that's why I am here today, to speak in favour of
 3     all of those things.
 4  1943                 I will stop here.  Thank you for your
 5     attention.
 6  1944                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 7     much, Mr. De-lulio.  I hope you enjoyed your experience
 8     with the CRTC.
 9  1945                 MR. DI-LULIO:  It was a lot less
10     threatening than I expected, but it's easier to write a
11     letter.
12  1946                 MS RHÉAUME:  Our next presenter is
13     Mr. Thomas S. Saras.
15  1947                 MR. SARAS:  Thank you very much for
16     the opportunity to be with you here tonight.  My name
17     is Thomas S. Saras and I am the editor-in-chief of a
18     national publication, in fact an international
19     publication with a circulation in the United States and
20     Canada from coast to coast, with experience in
21     broadcasting from the past.
22  1948                 The reason I am here today is just to
23     express some concerns about not the policy of
24     multiculturalism or multicultural broadcasting, but the
25     way that it has been achieved from the various careers


 1     of those who are dedicating or making a fortune from
 2     the policy.
 3  1949                 First of all, we are talking about
 4     multicultural broadcasting.  My community, it's the
 5     Greek and the Greek/Macedonian community, about 120,000
 6     people in the area of Metropolitan Toronto and we do
 7     have through the CFMT, if I am not making a mistake,
 8     two hours of broadcasting a week every Sunday, and from
 9     those two hours only one hour is dedicated to the life
10     in the community in Canada.
11  1950                 There is another half an hour program
12     through the so-called community channel, Channel 10,
13     Rogers, and that is supposed to be the communication
14     through the TV of the community, 125,000 members.
15  1951                 There is also -- there are two cable
16     stations and they are broadcasting 24 hours to the best
17     of my knowledge.  Now, the funny thing is I am
18     subscribing with Rogers for the last 35 years I am in
19     Canada.  Every time I am trying to reach one of the
20     radio stations I am unable.  I complained to them and
21     they told me the last time, a year ago, they told me
22     that I need to split something.  I don't know from
23     those technical terminologies, so I told them please
24     come and do it.
25  1952                 So, they sent someone.  They put it


 1     there.  They start charging me $5 for that thing.  I
 2     don't know exactly what it was, but I can assure you I
 3     never was able to take or to cut any TV, any radio
 4     broadcasting.  So, after a year, waiting and waiting
 5     that they are going to fix the problem, the problem
 6     never has been fixed, I asked them to take away this
 7     thing and save at least my $5.  I understand Mr. Rogers
 8     needs the dollars, but I need them as well.
 9  1953                 The other thing is, Mr. Rogers when
10     he bought CFMT, suppose that this channel is to serve
11     the ethnic communities.  This was the original reason
12     for the creation of CFMT.  Mr. Rogers took the channel
13     and eventually he made it 40 English, 60 ethnic and
14     probably he wants to make it 50/50.  I know that in the
15     past he tried to do that.
16  1954                 Then, because of the timing of those
17     programs he is cutting down everything and as a result
18     the Greek program, for example, was a one hour actual
19     broadcasting and it comes out to have one to three
20     young kids.  They try through their own enthusiasm to
21     produce some programs.  They don't pay anything to them
22     and they have one or two part-timers that are working
23     there.  Just I am wondering, is this the meaning of the
24     multicultural ethnic broadcasting?  Are we going to
25     have any broadcasters in the next generation or we are


 1     going to stop tomorrow because even if you adopt
 2     today's policy, I don't think there should be any
 3     enthusiasm to the next generations because no one is
 4     going to be interested to do those things.  This is one
 5     aspect, one of the reasons I came to see you here.
 6  1955                 The other thing is Mr. Rogers usually
 7     comes with the various buildings, the owners of the
 8     building.  I am not one of the rich Canadians.  I am
 9     poor.  I am living -- renting.  I am living in a
10     highrise apartment, so when I found out that he is not
11     giving me whatever I am expecting I asked them to stop,
12     to cut whatever, the service, and I will get something
13     through a satellite system.
14  1956                 I have been told no way.  This
15     building even if you don't want to get Rogers Cable
16     still you are going to pay.  This is something that I
17     don't understand.  Mr. Rogers has the monopoly through
18     the blessing of the CRTC.  Now, the CRTC gave to Mr.
19     Rogers the ability to tax me $32 every month and he
20     doesn't even bother to ask me what exactly I am looking
21     for, what type of broadcast I want.
22  1957                 He gives me two channels that are
23     talking about theology and I am not a theologian.  He
24     gives me one channel, the Shopping Channel, and this is
25     bad for my daughter and my wife.  He gives me --


 1  1958                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I don't know about
 2     that.  It's not bad for you?
 3  1959                 MR. SARAS:  Yes, it is bad for me
 4     because eventually over the $60 every second month to
 5     Mr. Rogers I pay those bills too, and Mr. Rogers makes
 6     more money through that.
 7  1960                 So the main philosophy is
 8     multi-culturalism is multiculturalism and we try to
 9     promote culture.  Through the way the CRTC is giving
10     out those blessings some people are making millions of
11     dollars because they are using the sentiment of
12     culture.
13  1961                 There are other problems also.  For
14     example, my readers say that they are forced to pay the
15     cables too much money.  They do not mind to pay for the
16     Greek channel, but they presently are paying for the
17     digital box and the basic English channels.  Mr. Rogers
18     comes and says, if you want to get, yes, you are going
19     to pay $20 per month and then if you want to have
20     another additional you pay another $12 and if you are
21     going to have the Greek channel you are going to pay
22     another $22.
23  1962                 In fact, in order to maintain my
24     culture I have to pay $100 to the carrier.  I have
25     nothing against Mr. Rogers and please don't take me


 1     wrong.  He is a fine man, believe me.  I like him.  He
 2     is a smart man, but I do pay to maintain the culture or
 3     to keep my mother happy, as my friend, the Slav
 4     Macedonian said before, or somehow to communicate this
 5     culture to my kids.
 6  1963                 What good is the basic English
 7     purchase for the low-income Greek that can be done?  He
 8     did not understand English, but he has to pay this
 9     thing.
10  1964                 At the same time, for example, in my
11     channels I have the Italian channel.  This is a
12     blessing from Mr. Rogers.  I never asked for that, but
13     he said no, because we are a multicultural society you
14     have to learn Italian, so I will give you the Italian
15     channel and I have the Italian channel.
16  1965                 Now, I am asking Mr. Rogers if I can
17     have the Greek specialty channel and Mr. Rogers says
18     no.  Why?  Because we don't have the lines.
19  1966                 Now, my question is:  How come they
20     can have two channels, Channel 8 to the best of my
21     knowledge and Channel 45, and this is all for -- one is
22     for Vision and the other one is CTS or whatever.
23  1967                 There are some other channels.  Why
24     do I have to pay to Mr. Rogers to watch the Toronto
25     Star channel?  I am receiving the Toronto Star every


 1     morning.  So I do have to go back and see also the
 2     Toronto Star on Mr. Rogers.
 3  1968                 I have the CityTV and then we have
 4     another channel for the CityTV.  We have CFTO and then
 5     we have another channel, Channel 17, and those are
 6     all -- Mr. Rogers decided that those are good channels
 7     for me, the subscriber.  So, he gives me those channels
 8     and there is not any way that I can get anything for my
 9     own culture because he thinks that this is the way the
10     job should be done.  This is the way multiculturalism
11     should be maintained in this country.
12  1969                 There is another thing with those
13     grey channels, the ones coming into this country
14     illegally.  They are coming into the country, they are
15     taking the ability from the local production to produce
16     something and because we don't have in fact something
17     locally serious, they can easily come down and sell
18     their own products with all those dishes and they are
19     bringing from the United States channels and so on.  We
20     have people, Canadians, that because of this policy
21     they are going and they buy those dishes from the
22     United States and they are getting directly the
23     programs from there.
24  1970                 The reason that I came today here was
25     just his one.  For over a period of 30 years with Ms


 1     Ziniak, with her father, we gave great fights to
 2     promote multiculturalism and its true meaning.  As
 3     everybody else said before, John is here.  We believe
 4     that the richness of this country is its
 5     multi-culturalism, but please don't take this beautiful
 6     flower of this society, don't give that as a gift to
 7     the hands of the few that they are going to make their
 8     own living easily and have the people suffering because
 9     this is going to be eventually bad, proved bad, for the
10     CRTC, for Canada and for the ethnic communities.
11  1971                 They feel that they are depressed and
12     oppression is everything that we try to avoid.  Please,
13     in closing I want to make an appeal to you and I want
14     to know that your agency is going to make sure that the
15     specialty channels are going to have the opportunity to
16     reach the masses and not by paying $100 every month. 
17     We cannot afford it.  Not every Canadian can afford to
18     pay $20, $22 basic, $12 whatever plus and plus another
19     $50 to get the specialty channels because Mr. Rogers
20     wants more money.
21  1972                 Mr. Rogers, or anyone else, is
22     getting the blessing from the Canadian government to
23     give this service.  If he thinks that this one is too
24     much, then he can sell the company and someone else is
25     going to do it, or please stop the monopoly.  This is a


 1     free market.  It's a free society.  Give that right to
 2     someone else, so we can also as a multicultural society
 3     we can come together and introduce another system and
 4     have our products.
 5  1973                 Thank you very much.
 6  1974                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 7     much, Mr. Saras.
 8  1975                 I think we will hear from one more
 9     participant before we break for dinner.
10  1976                 MS RHÉAUME:  The next presentation is
11     by Mr. Sham Chandrasekar of the Asian Television
12     Network.
14  1977                 MS J. CHANDRASEKAR:  Madam
15     Chairperson and Commissioners, we are indeed pleased to
16     have this opportunity of appearing before you today. 
17     My name is Jaya Chandrasekar and I am Vice-President of
18     Programming for Asian Television Network or ATN.
19  1978                 I am accompanied by Sham
20     Chandrasekar, CEO and President of ATN and Prakash
21     Naidoo, Vice-President and General Manager of ATN, and
22     also by mr. Shanti Shah, legal counsel to ATN.
23  1979                 In the short time we have, we would
24     like to direct our comments to address the very
25     pertinent and important questions and issues the


 1     Commission has raised under paragraph 29 of public
 2     Notice 1998-135.
 3  1980                 The numbering of each one of our
 4     comments corresponds with and is identical to the
 5     numbering of the question it addresses.
 6  1981                 I shall not read the questions per
 7     se, as the number prefacing the comment shall refer to
 8     and identify the question in each case.
 9  1982                 The comments are as follows:
10  1983                 29(1) The present broadcasting system
11     is not adequate, to the extent that it does not extend
12     unfettered access to specialty channels such as ATN to
13     access ethnocultural communities it serves.
14  1984                 Regulatory framework may be needed to
15     ensure equity and equal treatment, meaning that there
16     be no jumping of the queues and no self-dealing. 
17     Regulations may be required to ensure free access for
18     apartment dwellers.
19  1985                 29(2) Market forces alone cannot be
20     left to serve the needs of the ethnocultural audiences. 
21     In the context of the two official languages,
22     institutions such as the CBC maintain certain quality
23     and standards.  The regulatory environment, as well as
24     the public funding, both ensure that the mainstream
25     Canadian culture and broadcasting is not left to the


 1     raw power of market forces.  it is a question of
 2     leadership and responsible management of our airwaves. 
 3     Ethnocultural segment of the broadcasting industry also
 4     needs protection from market forces.
 5  1986                 Licensing controls Canadian
 6     ownership.  As well, Canadian content requirements are
 7     needed to remain in place.
 8  1987                 29(3) A.  Such links are quite
 9     useful.  In this context, one can cite the example of
10     the BBC in the context of the English audiences.  The
11     presence of the BBC in the English-speaking world is a
12     matter worth noting.  In the same manner, there are
13     high quality ethnic language programs available from
14     institutions, such as Doordarsha in India, an
15     equivalent of CBC or BBC.  ATN does carry selected
16     programs of high quality which are available through
17     it.
18  1988                 29(3) B.  ATN carries Canadian
19     programming directed specifically to South Asian groups
20     in several languages, namely Hindi, Urdu, Punjabi,
21     Tamil, Gujarati, Telugu, Marathi, Malayalam, Bengali,
22     Sindhi and English.  These are highly important as they
23     have relevance on a day-to-day basis.  These make our
24     channel part and parcel of the community we serve.
25  1989                 39(3) C.  Cross-cultural


 1     understanding is very important at all levels.  These
 2     enrich and unite communities as well as families.  This
 3     cross-cultural understanding is as necessary between
 4     generations as it is amongst the separate cultural
 5     groups, including the mainstream.
 6  1990                 ATN does this by producing and
 7     broadcasting bilingual programming, such as Hindi and
 8     English, Punjabi and English, Tamil and English and so
 9     on.
10  1991                 29(3) D.  Informational programming
11     is very important and ATN does this in many ways,
12     through magazine format shows, EFP and ENG, public
13     service announcements, mobile, publicity and promotion
14     and media sponsorships.
15  1992                 29(3) E.  These are also very
16     essential.  ATN keeps viewers informed through
17     interviews, discussions and talk shows, in which
18     politicians, scholars, students, seniors, business
19     people and professionals participate.
20  1993                 29(3) F.  Programming which provides
21     a platform to develop local talent is very important. 
22     ATN is very proud to have provided opportunities for
23     television debuts, to some of the current top singers
24     and performers in india, pakistan, Europe and the West
25     Indies, also internationally acclaimed platinum disc


 1     holders, such as Anup Jalota, Talat Aziz, Jagjit and
 2     Chitra Singh, and Arif Raoof had their first
 3     international television debut through ATN's Canadian
 4     productions.
 5  1994                 29(4)  There is no need for changes,
 6     save and except in the area of funding.  Funding which
 7     is available for new programming needs to be allocated
 8     more generously to the ethnocultural groups.
 9  1995                 29(50  The importance of ethnic
10     programming in third languages cannot be
11     over-emphasized.  Language and culture go hand in hand. 
12     English and French are fine in a limited, utilitarian
13     sense for the ethnic public.
14  1996                 There is no substitute for the mother
15     tongue.  Poetry is lost.  Art suffers.  Society is that
16     much poorer.  There are also seniors and large segments
17     of public who are not really conversant in English.
18  1997                 29(6)  Conventional radio and TV
19     stations have a limited role.  CBC may see a role to
20     give a few minutes to classical performances of Indian
21     music, or to a rare movie or Satya-Jit-Ray.  There are
22     also brokered programs on many stations.  These are
23     half or one hour weekly programs.  They have their
24     place.
25  1998                 The need for the large segments of


 1     the public is to have a choice on a daily basis.  Shift
 2     workers and homemakers and seniors find real choice
 3     when programming is offered on a round-the-clock basis.
 4  1999                 29(7)  Policy framework needs to be
 5     vigilant in maintaining controls over foreign influx
 6     and grey market.
 7  2000                 Grey market does not merely hurt
 8     ethnic stations.  It also hurts the mainstream and over
 9     the air broadcasting.  Grey market does not bring in a
10     single cent for the basic programming, as it bypasses
11     it.  This also results in cultural deprivation within a
12     given cultural group, as well as cross-cultural
13     exchanges.
14  2001                 The pressures are bound to build up
15     and it is easy and cheap to dump foreign programming. 
16     These are markets which did not ever exist and can
17     provide revenues with no programming expenses to the
18     foreign broadcasters and producers.  They can inundate
19     and suffocate the local Canadian productions.  Internet
20     is an area which has to be reviewed from time-to-time.
21  2002                 29(8)  There has been no dearth of
22     foreign ethnic services from foreign sources. 
23     Technology has made it easier to bring these to Canada. 
24     The special role for ethnic broadcasters is to ensure
25     that they develop a vibrant and first rate Canadian


 1     made programming industry, by supporting local talent
 2     in every way.
 3  2003                 The airwaves in Canada belong to
 4     Canadians and must reflect national, regional and local
 5     experience in Canada.  That is only possible if
 6     policies relating to Canadian cultural sovereignty
 7     remain in place and are enforced.  Canadian culture is
 8     made of multiple cultures and a unique Canadian blend
 9     of all of them.
10  2004                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms Chandrasekar,
11     you only have about three minutes left in your 10
12     minutes.  I just wanted to suggest to you that all of
13     these responses can be filed in writing with the
14     Commission, but if there are particular points that you
15     would like to share with us with respect to sort of the
16     broad framework, then now would be a good time to start
17     sharing them.  I am sorry to interrupt you.  It maybe
18     require sort of on-the-spot editing, but we would be
19     happy to accept all of those answers in writing.
20  2005                 MR. S. CHANDRASEKAR:  I think
21     basically there is really not much more that we would
22     like to add at this stage because we will be submitting
23     a written proposal.  All we would simply like to say is
24     that we are extremely grateful to the Commission for
25     recognizing the value of our South Asian community in


 1     terms of granting of the licence and we are very
 2     indebted not only to the Commission, but also we are
 3     very grateful to the other broadcasters with whom we
 4     have co-existed for many years.
 5  2006                 We have tremendous strength that we
 6     see in over-the-air television broadcasters, cable
 7     television companies, conventional broadcasters,
 8     brokers who have radio, television, newspaper, the
 9     entire industry.  We feel that there are a lot of
10     synergies with which we can co-exist very well
11     together, but we are very, very strongly of the opinion
12     that Canadian content is an absolute must and there
13     should be absolutely no compromise with respect to any
14     foreign programming or relaxation of rules.
15  2007                 We also strongly believe that
16     broadcast distribution undertakings have a tremendous
17     amount of responsibility.  When you are given a
18     monopoly, I think it is very important to -- delegation
19     of responsibility and accountability goes side by side.
20  2008                 We strongly believe that broadcast
21     distribution undertakings should really give
22     substantial priority or proper equal carriage to
23     services in which they have no ownership interest for
24     that matter.  I think that is of great significance to
25     us.  In the future I think it has got to be very, very


 1     important.  Whether it is cable or satellite, it
 2     doesn't matter.  We are talking about a concept itself,
 3     so it is not directed to any specific company for that
 4     matter.
 5  2009                 I think other than that we are
 6     absolutely glad to be here.  By the way, because four
 7     of us came we are not expecting 40 minutes, so don't
 8     worry about that.
 9  2010                 I have got to tell you a very quick
10     joke before I finish.
11  2011                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  That will be a good
12     way to end off this portion of our proceedings.
13  2012                 MR S. CHANDRASEKAR:  Twenty-five
14     years ago, away before CFMT was born, I started my
15     career with Ted Rogers on channel -- it was a local
16     community channel in 1971.  We launched Canada's first
17     South Asian television program on Rogers Cable.  In
18     those days it was Channel 33.  The cable dial in those
19     days on television sets it went only from channel 1 to
20     channel 13 and Ted Rogers didn't have colour cameras in
21     the Toronto Adelaide studios at that time.
22  2013                 So in order to market the local first
23     general converters, people didn't know how to access
24     the channel because we were on a multicultural channel
25     called Channel 33.  This was away before.  So we had to


 1     go and sell the concept that on your TV set you can now
 2     go beyond Channel 13 and we had to market that.
 3  2014                 History is repeating itself, so we
 4     are now doing the same thing on the digital roll-out. 
 5     So we went through this experience and so we have had
 6     that before and so we are now doing the same and it is
 7     really funny.  We launched our service on Shaw Cable
 8     with whom we are very grateful by the way and we are on
 9     digital, roll-out on Shaw, and people call us and we
10     are on Channel 102 on Shaw Cable.
11  2015                 When people call, if that's a little
12     difficult we are on Look TV on Channel 500.  Now, if
13     that's a high number to be on a channel, when people
14     complain that they want to be on Channel 10 or 12, we
15     are on ExpressVu on Channel 854.
16  2016                 There was a time our channel number
17     was higher than our subscriber number.  So I guess this
18     is the new digital world.  So one of the important
19     things that we really want to emphasize is the fact
20     that we really would like to be launched where it is
21     appropriate on the analogue world and our community
22     will easily convert to the digital world when the
23     digital capacity is available, if at all it is possible
24     in some areas.
25  2017                 If people feel that ethnic


 1     communities will not understand migrating from analogue
 2     to digital, I would just like to reinforce ethnic
 3     communities such as ours, we immigrated 14,000 miles
 4     away to a country like Canada.  We won't find it
 5     difficult to immigrate from analogue to digital in the
 6     same house.
 7  2018                 Thank you very much.
 8  2019                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 9     Chandrasekar.  I am just wondering, are you telling us
10     that channel placement really in the digital world is
11     not an issue?
12  2020                 MR S. CHANDRASEKAR:  The number
13     doesn't really matter in the digital world.  I think it
14     will take quite a bit of time to educate the community.
15  2021                 We, frankly, have had a tremendous
16     amount of difficulty educating the community because we
17     are proud to say we are Canada's first channel that had
18     the guts to launch on digital cable as well as digital
19     satellite.  A lot of people thought we were crazy, but
20     we still went ahead and launched on ExpressVu when we
21     first launched and it is really interesting, you know. 
22     We felt that people couldn't understand what
23     direct-to-home satellite is, whereas in the United
24     States this term is more popular.
25  2022                 We had to create our own call centre


 1     and people called us with different languages.  I heard
 2     one of my call centre people talking to one of the
 3     customers and they were not even properly oriented and
 4     the customer said -- the call centre person said to the
 5     customer, "Oh, I'm sorry, if your house is not facing
 6     southwest you won't get the signal."  It's just the
 7     dish had to face southwest and you can imagine how much
 8     education we had to do from scratch.
 9  2023                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you so much
10     for being with us.
11  2024                 We are going to take a break now.  We
12     will reconvene at a quarter to seven.
13     --- Short recess at 1830 / Courte suspension à 1830
14     --- Upon resuming at 1850 / Reprise à 1850
15  2025                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Welcome back,
16     ladies and gentlemen.  I apologize for the delay.  It
17     just goes to show 15 minutes is not really long enough
18     for dinner.
19  2026                 I think we will proceed to the next
20     party.  I would just like to take this opportunity to
21     reinforce to you once again that you have 10 minutes
22     and Madam Secretary is cracking her whip.  So, please
23     try to respect your time limit, but tell us what's on
24     your mind as well as you can within that limit.
25  2027                 Thanks.


 1  2028                 MS RHÉAUME:  Our next speakers are
 2     Mr. Alok Sharma and Mr. Mopas Dean of the National
 3     Campus and Community Radio Association.
 5  2029                 MR. DEAN:  Thank you, Madam Chairman,
 6     Commissioners, guests and people observing here today.
 7  2030                 Today myself and my colleague here,
 8     we are here representing the National Campus and
 9     Community Radio Association, also known as the NCRA. 
10     Mr. Sharma is a program director and a fellow board
11     member representing the Ontario Region for the NCRA. 
12     As well he's a program director at CHRY-Radio York.  I
13     myself am the program director at CIUT-FM, University
14     of Toronto Radio and I sit on the board of the NCRA as
15     the Vice-President for Communications.
16  2031                 As being here today on behalf of the
17     National Campus Community Radio Association, right now
18     we represent approximately over 50 stations across
19     Canada, as well as other radio societies and
20     organizations, people who are looking to get community
21     access, trying to start grassroots radio and
22     broadcasting.
23  2032                 Of the 42 campus stations there are
24     also eight community stations within our third sector
25     of broadcasting, making up the Canadian broadcasting


 1     system or, as some people refer to it, the third silent
 2     system.
 3  2033                 There are a couple of changes and/or
 4     exemptions that we are looking for within the existing
 5     policy as it pertains to ethnic broadcasting to campus
 6     and community radio and I will be going through this
 7     shortly.  First, starting with protection for ethnic
 8     programming.  This is of great concern with us,
 9     particularly protection from other stations and other
10     parties or new people coming into the broadcasting
11     system, from other stations or from people who are
12     looking to duplicate the services that we are already
13     providing in regards to the licensing that we get
14     and/or the radio policies put forth from the CRTC.
15  2034                 Second of all, we want to raise the
16     issue of increasing the 15 per cent ceiling to 20 per
17     cent in regards to the amount of ethnic broadcasting
18     that we are allowed right now.  We want to encourage
19     stations to have a variety of ethnic programming.  The
20     current ceiling we feel prevents stations from giving a
21     voice to certain communities and even though stations
22     can ask for exemption, many are discouraged or are --
23     discouraged I guess for lack of a better word, from the
24     processing system that they have to go through in terms
25     of working with the CRTC or liaising with other


 1     agencies.
 2  2035                 At our conference last summer in
 3     Victoria we were discussing the idea of even perhaps
 4     applying to raise it as much as 40 per cent.  However,
 5     we would be very happy to get the increase of 20 per
 6     cent that we are asking for at this time.
 7  2036                 We are also looking for protection in
 8     regards to our SCMO or sideband stations that we are
 9     allowed to broadcast and utilize, particularly in
10     regards to our ethnic stations.  In a lot of cases
11     these sidebands provide valuable funding and/or access
12     to funds that we don't normally have.  As we all know,
13     the campus and community radio sector in Canada is very
14     fragile at best, often looking with problems in regard
15     to staffing, funding, granting as it dries up.  This is
16     a valuable resource that we have and as we are even
17     seeing right now that I can speak from personal
18     experience with our sidebands over at CIUT.  These are
19     constantly being challenged and these sidebands are
20     constantly challenged against the growth in terms of
21     multicultural programming or other programming that is
22     adjacent reflects what they are doing as sidebands.
23  2037                 Finding that these sidebands not
24     being protected it could lead in some cases to stations
25     being quite catastrophic in terms of the financing that


 1     we get in.  I know, particularly in the case of CIUT,
 2     the finances that we get from our sidebands is really
 3     greatly needed.
 4  2038                 I want to also touch on our
 5     programming in relationship to ethnic broadcasting is
 6     different within our sector.  Our ethnic programming is
 7     quite different from the commercial ethnic stations. 
 8     First of all, and foremost identifiable is students are
 9     involved with it.  As the international student
10     enrolment is on the rise at Canadian universities, so
11     is the enrolment of these students at our station.  For
12     example, right now speaking from a poll that was taken
13     about two or three years ago at the University of
14     Toronto, 55 per cent of the undergraduate population is
15     neither white nor male.  So, we are seeing a changing
16     face, not only in Canada, but also in student
17     populations as well.
18  2039                 Most of our campus and community
19     radio stations have a much higher spoken word content
20     than most commercial ethnic stations.  As well, the
21     spoken word content deals with in-depth issues,
22     culturally and politically issues and reports on news
23     that commercial stations and other medias usually don't
24     speak of.
25  2040                 Our show hosts are usually tied into


 1     community and from the community.  These are the same
 2     people that choose their spoken-word programming and
 3     their music programming.  These show's producers are
 4     tied directly into the community and in a majority of
 5     cases are well known in their community.  The majority
 6     of ethnic programming at campus and community radio
 7     stations will not include programming produced in other
 8     areas of Canada, let alone other parts of the world. 
 9     As well, it is an important source to the community and
10     to let them know what is or isn't going on, locally or
11     regionally.
12  2041                 As well, though it isn't exactly the
13     case in every situation, many campus and community
14     radio stations never charge anything to provide access
15     to our airwaves, as in some cases with our
16     counterparts.  At most in a lot of cases is usually a
17     nominal membership fee, usually to match fees gained
18     through the university.
19  2042                 We also have other concerns in
20     regards to the Canadian content factor participation
21     within ethnic broadcasting.  Although 7 per cent seems
22     small and particularly in regards to the stations in
23     big urban or ethnic centres it is not a problem, but we
24     have seen on a whole that as we get away from the
25     ethnic centres in Canada and go into more remote


 1     regions this can tend to be a very large challenge and
 2     problem.  We are hoping that there can be a situation
 3     or something said where we can look at either changing
 4     or involving something like Factor or an agency where
 5     we can look at getting campus and community radio more
 6     involved in regards through granting or being involved
 7     to set up a panel or something to promote Canadian
 8     talent development through these regions to allow a
 9     greater percentage to meet these quotas or something to
10     look at it to that extent.
11  2043                 If this can be done through other
12     areas of funding or actually using or utilizing the
13     resources that we have within the campus and community
14     radio sector in Canada to be involved in such agencies,
15     turning a percentage of funds over to the Campus and
16     Community Radio Associations to use to distribute to be
17     a part of the granting situation.
18  2044                 Basically, in closing this is what we
19     are looking at.  In conclusion, we see the contribution
20     from ethnic communities and programming as a welcome
21     and needed component within our licensing.  Our sector
22     revels in the contributions from persons and
23     communities who add to the mosaic in our programming
24     and who contribute to our privilege in giving a voice
25     to communities, ethnic groups and individuals who don't


 1     have access to the mainstream or media outlets in the
 2     whole.
 3  2045                 Thank you for listening and we
 4     appreciate the time that was granted to us today. 
 5     Thank you very much.
 6  2046                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much
 7     for being with us.
 8  2047                 MR. DEAN:  Our pleasure.
 9  2048                 MS RHÉAUME:  Our next presenter is
10     Mr. Halia Volhovski of the Ukrainian Radio Program
11     Association.
13  2049                 MS V. VOLHOVSKI:  Good evening.  We
14     are Halia and Valeri Volhovski.  We are ethnic
15     Ukrainian and today at this forum we represent
16     Ukrainian radio program "Prometheus" which airs monday
17     to Friday from 3:00 to 3:30 p.m. on CHIN-Radio AM 1540.
18  2050                 "Prometheus" was first heard on the
19     airwaves on the 27th of April, 1962, already 37 years. 
20     We are working for the Ukrainian radio program
21     "Prometheus" from 1995.
22  2051                 The broadcasting of ethnic programs,
23     especially in a country like Canada, is of great
24     importance.  Every person, no matter where they live,
25     has their own ethnic roots which go back a few


 1     generations or many.  Sometimes people are forced to
 2     leave their homeland for one reason or another. 
 3     Historically, this has been the case for most of the
 4     USA and Canada.  These two countries were established
 5     by immigrants from all over the world.
 6  2052                 This is evident now as Toronto was
 7     named the world's most culturally diverse city.  Almost
 8     every cultural group can be found in Canada, if not
 9     all.  Every person has their own religion, if any,
10     their own faith, traditions, belief.
11  2053                 In this new land people still hold on
12     to these things even after they have left their
13     homeland, and end up forming communities.  Every such
14     community has their own mass media sources.  The first
15     factor in uniting a community is language.  Almost for
16     all new immigrants in Canada, English or French is the
17     second language.  Some people are keen to learn one or
18     both of these, others are not.
19  2054                 It is also very important that
20     children be taught their roots and where they came
21     from, also the language of their ancestors.  This is
22     where the ethnic mass media sources come into play,
23     including radio programs.  My Ukrainian radio program
24     serves to do just that.
25  2055                 Besides this though, the radio


 1     program also features news from Canada, the world and
 2     especially Ukraine.  Radio program "Prometheus" lets
 3     all those who understand Ukrainian in southern Ontario
 4     hear news, community announcements, political
 5     commentaries, medical news, traditional eastern
 6     European medicines, ukrainian holidays and festivities,
 7     and sons from Ukraine.  There are also interviews on
 8     the program with influential people or interesting
 9     people in the Ukrainian community.
10  2056                 Ukrainian radio program gives
11     Ukrainian-speaking people who can't get out of their
12     house for one reason or another an opportunity to
13     connect with the outside world and to hear about it.
14  2057                 Our Ukrainian radio programs has a
15     wide range of audience, around 50,000 people, including
16     those who can barely speak any English or none at all. 
17     Mostly, these are newcomers in Canada.  These newcomers
18     are in need of understanding this new world, and ethnic
19     mass media sources provides this too.
20  2058                 People adjust to this country knowing
21     they have others just like them in this diversified
22     community.
23  2059                 These programs can sometimes help a
24     critically ill patient who is in need of money for
25     medicines or other extreme cases.  On one occasion the


 1     Ukrainian program "Prometheus" helped to collect costs
 2     for the transport of the body of a young 24 year old
 3     woman who unexpectedly died in Canada back to ukraine.
 4  2060                 Ethnic radio programs also help
 5     ethnic businesses of Toronto get established and
 6     flourish, as ethnic businesses usually advertise on
 7     programs of their own culture which, in turn, benefits
 8     them and not only.  It also benefits the greater
 9     community of Toronto and that of Canada.
10  2061                 The taxes paid bring in revenue which
11     in turn could be used for the bettering of health
12     services, of education, science research, protection
13     services, transportation and creation of employment. 
14     Also it enables Canada to take a leading role in
15     assisting nations of the world which are in need of
16     help due to wars, natural disasters and other factors.
17  2062                 When the ethnic mass media sources
18     are examined more closely and more carefully, including
19     the radio programs, they can be looked at as the window
20     to people's homelands, to people's roots, so that they
21     may feel as if they were there, but know they are in
22     Canada and with time accepting Canada as their
23     homeland.
24  2063                 We all know from history the Babylon
25     Tower which the peoples of the earth tried to build so


 1     as to the skies and have representatives from every
 2     land in it.  Canada represents that tower in a way.  We
 3     have representatives from almost every culture group of
 4     the world here.
 5  2064                 Thank you to the Constitution of
 6     Canada many cultures of the world can flourish right
 7     here in Canada.  From the ukrainian community of
 8     Toronto and southern Ontario, whatever radio programs
 9     are heard we give great thanks to Mr. Johnny Lombardi,
10     his family and to all the workers at CHIN, who work to
11     promote cultural diversity through the radio.
12  2065                 Thank you very much from all the
13     Ukrainian community.
14  2066                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
15     Volhovski.
16  2067                 MS V. VOLHOVSKI:  Thank you.
17  2068                 MS RHÉAUME:  The next presenter is
18     Mr. Arnold Auguste of the Share newspaper.  I hope I
19     pronounced that right, but I probably didn't.
20  2069                 MR. AUGUSTE:  Well, "August" is fine.
21  2070                 MS RHÉAUME:  Thank you.
23  2071                 MR. AUGUSTE:  Good evening, Madam
24     Chairperson, Commissioner Langford, members of the
25     Commission.


 1  2072                 First, I would like to take a moment
 2     and express my thanks for the opportunity.  The fact
 3     that you have taken this time to listen to the concerns
 4     of the ethnic communities across the country, I think
 5     that says a lot to us, that you do care about what we
 6     think.
 7  2073                 Thank you very much.
 8  2074                 My name is Arnold Auguste.  I am the
 9     founder and publisher of SHARE newspaper.  SHARE is a
10     weekly newspaper that has served as the primary voice
11     of the Black and Caribbean community for close to 21
12     years.  SHARE is the largest ethnic newspaper in Canada
13     with a circulation of about 130,000 readers every week.
14  2075                 I have had a long and rewarding
15     career over the past 21 years as the publisher of
16     SHARE, having gained a measure of respect from various
17     levels of government and the key institutions within
18     our society for what I believe is objective and
19     balanced reporting on the Black experience in Canada.
20  2076                 Canada's Black and Caribbean
21     community go back many generations.  It includes the
22     long established African-Canadian community whose roots
23     date back to the founding of Canada and even before
24     that, the early West-Indians who worked on the
25     railroads in the early part of the century, a second


 1     wave who arrived in the sixties comprised mainly of
 2     students and domestic workers who have since emerged to
 3     become a major part of the professional and
 4     entrepreneurial elite of our community and of the wider
 5     society.  Their offspring, along with those of earlier
 6     generations, are quintessentially Canadian and they
 7     want to be seen and to be accepted as nothing less than
 8     that.
 9  2077                 A third wave of selected immigrants,
10     wanted because of their professional, technical and
11     other skills, arrived in the seventies and eighties. 
12     And finally in the late eighties and nineties, there
13     were those who came here for economic and other
14     reasons, such as escaping persecution of one kind or
15     another.
16  2078                 one thing we all share in common is
17     skin colour.  Another is the seemingly perpetual
18     perception on the part of a significant segment of this
19     society, including many of its decision makers, that we
20     are still either newcomers or criminals -- the latter,
21     the result of the highly publicized activities of a
22     minuscule criminal element within our community.  They
23     conveniently forget of course that there is crime in
24     every community.
25  2079                 My comments today will be directed


 1     mainly at the impact which the CRTC's policy on third
 2     language and ethnic programming has on the Black and
 3     Caribbean community, particularly as it affects
 4     Toronto.
 5  2080                 As you know, Toronto is the most
 6     multicultural city in Canada, and arguably in the
 7     world.  According to recent StatsCan figures, visible
 8     minorities will account for more than 50 per cent of
 9     the population of this city in the next couple of
10     years.  A large percentage of that will be members of
11     the Black and Caribbean community.
12  2081                 With a population of close to half a
13     million people in the GTA, maybe even more than that,
14     our community is the largest community in Canada
15     without its own voice in broadcasting.
16  2082                 We do have some programs on ethnic
17     radio and television stations.  They are mostly late at
18     night or very early in the morning, times which are not
19     convenient for many of us.  The fact that they continue
20     to be produced at all, however, speaks to the need for
21     such programming and to the dedication of the people
22     who are involved in providing this programming.  For
23     example, disc jockeys, the DJs, the radio hosts and
24     these programs have a loyal following.  In fact, some
25     of those radio hosts or DJs, as we call them, are very


 1     popular in our community.  As a matter of fact, many of
 2     them have achieved sort of celebrity status and it is
 3     not uncommon to find some of them being invited to MC
 4     shows as celebrity guests.
 5  2083                 In addition to the important role
 6     play by our community and our local radio hosts, for
 7     years WBLK, the Black radio station which booms into
 8     Toronto from Buffalo, New York, has been a staple in
 9     our community.  It is not uncommon to go to the home of
10     a Black person and hear the radio tuned to BLK.  During
11     the summer, when many young people are driving around
12     in their cars with their windows down, it is not
13     uncommon to hear that their radios are also tuned to
14     BLK.  Actually, their disc jockeys are also very
15     welcome up here.  They are very popular up here and
16     they are invited regularly to host fashion shows and
17     events of that kind.
18  2084                 While mainstream television stations
19     have made an effort to feature Black and other visible
20     minorities on their news programs, and shows such as
21     CityTV's MuchMusic play an important role in helping
22     our community see a reflection of itself in the media,
23     there isn't one Black voice, as far as I am aware of,
24     on a mainstream radio station in this city.
25  2085                 In examining the policy framework you


 1     ask to what extent the Canadian broadcasting system
 2     adequately reflects Canada's ethnocultural community. 
 3     As the question relates to my community, the short
 4     answer is it does not adequately do so.  It does not
 5     adequately reflect our voices.
 6  2086                 As I understand Canadian policy, over
 7     the years on matters of multiculturalism or ethnicity,
 8     it strives for and encourages the full participation of
 9     ethnic groups in Canadian life.
10  2087                 Our community essentially uses
11     English as our principal language of communication. 
12     Unfortunately, ethnic broadcasting tends to be
13     multilingual in nature.  And there's the rub.  On the
14     one hand, we are largely ignored by ethnic broadcasters
15     because we speak English.  On the other hand, we are
16     frequently overlooked by mainstream broadcasters
17     because we are not perceived to be part of the Canadian
18     mainstream.
19  2088                 yes, we want to have programming in
20     English which helps us to share our Black experience
21     within our communities as stipulated in the
22     Commission's existing ethnic broadcasting policy.
23  2089                 But much more importantly, we need to
24     have programming which reaches out to the wider society
25     and reflects and celebrates our experiences on


 1     mainstream radio and television so as to build a better
 2     understanding, acceptance and integration for us within
 3     our society.  Without this, we would never be fully
 4     accepted as equal partners within this society.
 5  2090                 Therefore, I implore you to take a
 6     special look at the need for a strong Black presence or
 7     a stronger Black presence in mainstream radio and
 8     television broadcasting.
 9  2091                 While Type B programming is a high
10     priority for many of us in the Black and Caribbean
11     community, and some qualitative criteria as in Type C
12     must be kept to reach culturally isolated subsections
13     of our community, our primary requirement is to see
14     ourselves and to be seen by the Canadian audiences as
15     positive, contributing and successful and equal
16     partners in Canadian society.  We need conventional
17     mainstream stations to reflect this reality.
18  2092                 Black music, our music, which we have
19     given to the world is our main conduit for attracting
20     the attention of the wider society and getting them to
21     participate in our experiences and to see us as equals.
22  2093                 We can use our music to gain the
23     foothold and that foothold that we need in this
24     conventional broadcasting system.
25  2094                 There are a number of things that you


 1     as the CRTC can do to address the need for a greater
 2     Black presence in mainstream broadcasting.
 3  2095                 First, mainstream broadcasters should
 4     be encouraged to make room in their schedules for Type
 5     E programming.  And all these types I am talking about
 6     I have just got from reading the information you sent
 7     me, so I am getting familiar with what all of these
 8     things mean.
 9  2096                 Second, where circumstances permit,
10     the Commission should use its best efforts to ensure
11     that Black music radio stations are licensed in
12     communities across Canada which feature a large enough
13     Black population to warrant such, such as here in
14     Toronto.
15  2097                 Third, with the growing trend towards
16     specialty television in broadcasting, the Commission
17     should use its good offices to encourage the licensing
18     of a Canadian specialty television station patterned
19     along the lines of the American service, Black
20     Entertainment Television.
21  2098                 Fourth, the Commission should
22     encourage broadcasters and record companies to provide
23     increased exposure and financial support for newly
24     recorded music by Black Canadian singers and musicians. 
25     There is a real problem here.


 1  2099                 Fifth, internships and other training
 2     incentives for visible minority graduates from
 3     broadcast and journalism schools should be encouraged
 4     and included as part of the obligation of new
 5     licensees, or as part of the benefits package required
 6     in transactions involving transfers of ownership and
 7     control.
 8  2100                 I have a personal interest here
 9     because I am on the advisory board of the Journalism
10     Department at Ryerson.  We have a real problem getting
11     internships at some of these stations especially for
12     young people, for our students.
13  2101                 In conclusion, Madam Chairperson, as
14     a member of the Black and Caribbean community, a
15     revision of the ethnic broadcasting policy will only be
16     useful and relevant if visible minorities like me, who
17     use English or French as our primary means of
18     communication, see ourselves reflected not just in
19     ethnic programming, but much more importantly that our
20     contributions, our cultural expressions and our history
21     are included as valid, and as equally enriching as all
22     the other facets which make up this country's
23     magnificent cultural identity.  This can be best
24     achieved by securing a place for us in Canada's
25     mainstream radio and television broadcasting system.


 1  2102                 That's all I have to say today.  I
 2     thank you very much for your time.
 3  2103                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 4     much, Mr. Auguste.
 5  2104                 MS RHÉAUME:  Our next speaker is Mr.
 6     Pradip Sood of the Indo-Canada Chamber of Commerce.
 8  2105                 MR. SOOD:  Commissioners, ladies and
 9     gentlemen, good evening.  My name is Pradip Sood.  I am
10     the Corporate Secretary, Vice-President of the
11     Indo-Canada Chamber of Commerce.
12  2106                 The ICCC is a non-profit,
13     non-partisan organization founded in 1977.  Our
14     programs and policies foster individual and team
15     initiatives and the ability of our members to make a
16     significant contribution to the economic, cultural and
17     social fabric of Canada.
18  2107                 As Canada's premier privately funded
19     Indo-Canadian business organization, our mission is to
20     promote business, professional -- and the general
21     well-being of Indo-Canadian business, to create
22     positive awareness of contributions of the
23     Indo-Canadian business communities and to facilitate
24     business and create opportunities.
25  2108                 Our current membership of


 1     approximately 660 encompasses a wide range of
 2     industries and professions.  The membership consists of
 3     largely SME business, together with professionals
 4     servicing corporate Canada.  Many of our members
 5     currently trade with the U.S., the U.K., Germany, Viet
 6     Nam, Malaysia, China and India to name a few.
 7  2109                 We essentially view multiculturalism
 8     as a great business potential, to the extent that we
 9     now hold multicultural trade symposia with other
10     similar organizations in Toronto.  Two years ago the
11     ICCC held symposia in collaboration with the Italian
12     and the Chinese business associations.  Last year the
13     event was expanded to include the Dutch, Japanese,
14     Black and Ukrainian business associations as well.
15  2110                 The ICCC believes that there is
16     tremendous potential for doing business with these
17     communities and the countries they represent.  Such
18     opportunity exists right here for us at home, thanks to
19     the multicultural mosaic of Canada.
20  2111                 The immigrant population in urban
21     cities across Canada is the fastest growing segment. 
22     This has naturally enhanced the need for the
23     third-language programming that the adults and seniors
24     constantly need to keep in touch with the country of
25     their origin.  Our children learn to understand their


 1     roots, a compelling factor in their formative years.
 2  2112                 The essence and content of the
 3     culturally based program is often lost when a language
 4     such as English or French is used in imparting
 5     knowledge about heritage, religion, poetry and so on.
 6  2113                 At present, the broadcasting system
 7     serving Canada's ethnocultural communities is limited
 8     and selective.  The commercial opportunities arising of
 9     the third-language programming have yet to be explored
10     to their fullest potential.  The third-language
11     programming offer very creative market potentials for
12     producers.  This has remained untapped mainly due to
13     the current guidelines and framework being imposed
14     rather than being determined by the free market systems
15     in the Canadian context.  This is equally applicable to
16     radio and television broadcasting.
17  2114                 Those courageous networks who are
18     trying to bring forth third-language programming to
19     people are only able to do so at extremely high cost to
20     the customers.  Viewers have to first rent or install
21     all kinds of equipment in addition to the monthly cable
22     charge to view these programs which makes this very
23     expensive for families.
24  2115                 Given the fact that access today is
25     limited and, therefore, regulated, the ability of


 1     programming service companies to effectively compete in
 2     an open market is very confined.  Most broadcast
 3     distributors also own programming services.  This
 4     causes further aggravation in instances where the
 5     marketing styles of independent producers fail to match
 6     that of the cable company.
 7  2116                 We believe as long as broadcast
 8     distribution undertakings such as cable companies or a
 9     DTH distributor or wireless companies are allowed to
10     own programming services, third language programming
11     will have a difficulty to reach their potential.
12  2117                 Like gas, hydro and the telephone
13     industries, why cannot the distribution be kept at an
14     arm's length with content or programming.  After all,
15     we are talking about access.
16  2118                 As to the question as to should there
17     be priority on the development of Canadian ethnic
18     services rather than foreign services, we feel that
19     while one would like to see a substantial Canadian
20     content -- however, such content should not dilute the
21     authenticity and relevance of the program.
22  2119                 Simultaneously, through protection
23     and regulation, the local talent should be developed on
24     a larger scale to replace the foreign at the earliest.
25  2120                 Today there is a need for


 1     facilitating third-language programming at reasonable
 2     rates in order to ensure that one of the most powerful
 3     industries which potentially can go to every home and
 4     make the difference in the lives of the ethnocultural
 5     population of Canada gets the necessary boost.  Perhaps
 6     it's about time for chopping American channels and
 7     fostering the growth of Canadian ethnic channels to the
 8     fullest potential with no compromise.
 9  2121                 We would also like to express the
10     need for adequate radio service for the ethnocultural
11     population of GTA.  Some of the programming, especially
12     the South Asian one is currently fragmented.  A number
13     of short-length programs are serving the community,
14     making it very difficult for listeners.  Perhaps the
15     location of one multicultural radio station would help
16     aggregate such splintered services.
17  2122                 In closing, I would like to reiterate
18     that there should be no foreign service allowed in
19     Canada and further, the existing ethnic services should
20     be the lead players in any expansion of television or
21     radio in the particular dish market.  Let's not forget
22     that a big country like even the U.S. last month had to
23     introduce or at least attempted to introduce
24     protectionist policies towards their steel regarding
25     the Japanese steel coming into the country.


 1  2123                 So, protecting the people who already
 2     have or ensuring the people who already have licences
 3     within the radio or in television and giving them the
 4     fullest possible opportunity to expand and to grow and
 5     also to share the time would certainly help our ethnic
 6     multicultural situation.
 7  2124                 Thank you.
 8  2125                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 9     much, Mr. Sood.
10  2126                 MS RHÉAUME:  The next presentation
11     will be Mr. Srini Suppiramaniam and Mr. Richard
12     Kanaragaura.
14  2127                 MR. SUPPIRAMANIAM:  Commissioners,
15     nearly three decades ago, ladies and gentlemen, Canada
16     laid the foundation to the concept of a global family
17     of diverse communities of peoples and nations with the
18     declaration that this country will function as a
19     multicultural state within a bilingual framework.
20  2128                 The architects had great visions to
21     conceive a policy that will give abundant opportunities
22     for all newcomers to the land to learn English and
23     French and be encouraged at the same time to retain
24     their cultural traditions and values through the
25     propagation of the heritage languages and be provided


 1     with opportunities for intercultural activities.  In
 2     other words, Canada was to strive towards a microcosm
 3     of a global family within its borders itself.
 4  2129                 As the founder of Ceylon
 5     Broadcasting, TV Ceylon, a commercial enterprise,
 6     following my responsibilities as the producer and the
 7     technical director of Kalappam Tamil Cultural
 8     Television Network of the community channel of Shaw and
 9     Rogers Cables since September 1993, I am very
10     privileged to present to the Canadian Radio-television
11     Commission today my views and observations on the
12     questions that have been raised to review its policy on
13     third language and ethnic programming.
14  2130                 It is 15 years since a broadcasting
15     policy reflecting Canada's cultural and linguistic
16     diversity was issued.  This is a good period of time to
17     examine the impact it has made, particularly in
18     relation to Canada's commitment to multiculturalism and
19     to determine as to where we should go from here into
20     the 21st century, or call it the new millennium.
21  2131                 In all honesty, I have to admit to
22     this Commission that although I can draw inferences
23     from a broader perspective, my focus naturally will be
24     on the Tamil community in Canada to which I belong, and
25     for whose needs both Kalappam and TV Ceylon were


 1     founded.  I am proud to be the pioneer TV broadcaster
 2     to my community in this country, and for taking this
 3     challenge initiative.  I have been greatly helped by my
 4     experience as a communication engineer with Sri Lanka's
 5     TV and Radio Broadcasting Services, Rupavahini for 10
 6     years, and later as TV production engineer with Rogers
 7     Cable Community Television here in Toronto.
 8  2132                 The services that are the direct
 9     results of the CRTC policy has enabled the Tamil
10     community to be informed of day-to-day local and
11     international events in their own language and
12     entertained with cultural programs that are traditional
13     to them.  they have also created avenues for
14     educational opportunities and to appreciate and
15     understand the cultures and values of fellow Canadians. 
16     The availability of the broadcasting services and the
17     technology that has developed along with it in
18     particular have been a major encouraging feature in the
19     development of music and dance sacred to the Tamils.
20  2133                 Even more important is the
21     heart-warming fact that every Tamil can feel proud that
22     he or she can share her culture with fellow Canadians,
23     be enriched land through this lay the foundations for
24     intercultural understanding within the marvellous
25     mosaic of Canadian multiculturalism.  If a Tamil who


 1     was a refugee a decade and a half ago fleeing the
 2     country, leaving all that he or she had built on the
 3     foundations laid by generations of ancestors can
 4     retrieve the lost dignity in an alien land and be proud
 5     of it, among many institutions in Canada that
 6     contributed towards it the CRTC can take a major
 7     credit.  It is my view that the broadcasting policy
 8     that was conceived and implemented 15 years ago was one
 9     of great foresight.
10  2134                 Let me at this juncture make an
11     observation or two.  Canada is a free country and the
12     country's economic development to a very large extent
13     is determined by market forces.  An institution like TV
14     Ceylon is very much dependent on advertising support. 
15     This, at present comes from commercial enterprises that
16     are largely Tamil-owned and the support they can
17     provide us is limited and dwindling.  It would be a
18     far-fetched dream to hope that large corporations will
19     come to the aid of ethnocultural enterprises,
20     especially when our children become more and more
21     familiar with the kind of consumerism that is sadly
22     beyond the enterprise of the Tamil community.
23  2135                 The CRTC, therefore, should consider
24     this as a matter of great importance, or shall I say
25     grave importance, and ensure that the development of


 1     ethnocultural programs do not suffer because of the
 2     dwindling nature of commercial enterprises within a
 3     said community.  There are, I am sure, various ways of
 4     counteracting this threat and small communities like
 5     ours need the continuing strength and support of the
 6     CRTC.  It is possible, there may come a time mainstream
 7     broadcasting entrepreneurs may begin to see great
 8     possibilities by becoming partners with us in our
 9     enterprises.
10  2136                 It may, however, be argued that
11     programs should be developed that will attract
12     advertising from large corporations.  While this is
13     true, apart from the need to develop technology to a
14     very high degree, advertisers are likely to demand
15     programs that may ignore cultural aspects that are rich
16     to a particular community.  The philosophical,
17     religious and cultural enrichment Bharatha Natyam and
18     Carnatic music give to the Tamils, for example, may at
19     best be compromised or at worst, although ignored.  It
20     is necessary that we have to be conscious of this
21     danger at all times.
22  2137                 On the other hand, emphasis on
23     ethnocultural programs should not mean the
24     strengthening the forces of the ghetto.  This would
25     defeat not only Canada's ideal of multiculturalism, but


 1     will also encourage clots in the body politic of the
 2     country that could lead to sociopolitical ulcers and
 3     cancers with dire consequences to the country.
 4  2138                 The CRTC must ensure that
 5     ethnocultural programs, while placing the emphasis on
 6     the unique endowment of a particular community, must
 7     also cause ripples, waves and vibrations of impact
 8     around it encompassing the cultures of fellow
 9     Canadians.  In this respect, the campuses from the
10     schools to the university must become areas of interest
11     for the CRTC.  It is here young people relate
12     themselves easily with their fellow students without
13     being constricted by prejudices of all kinds from race
14     and religion to colour and gender.
15  2139                 Finally, on the question of importing
16     foreign services and material to meet the ethnocultural
17     needs, I must issue a strong warning.  Again, speaking
18     for my community, there is naturally an attraction to
19     meet this need without much effort by importing
20     programs from South India which is today among the
21     foremost producers of films and other entertainment
22     material.
23  2140                 My community here in Canada is part
24     of the Canadian nation.  It has to develop on the lines
25     Canada has determined for herself under the Charter of


 1     Rights and Freedoms.  We have to develop our own
 2     programs, our own technology and our own experts based
 3     on the values that we cherish as Tamils and enriched by
 4     our Canadian citizenship.
 5  2141                 Therefore, in this field too, the
 6     CRTC must take note the role it can play to develop our
 7     own materials and programs.  These could very well
 8     become a crucial factor in the social revolution long
 9     overdue in South India, Sri Lanka Mauritius, South
10     Africa, Fiji, Guyana and other places Tamils went to
11     work in plantations during the colonial era.  in other
12     words, blessed as we are, it is we who should be
13     exporting programs to these countries.
14  2142                 In making this presentation on behalf
15     of TV Ceylon, I am fortunate to have the support and
16     expertise of mr. K.S. Balachandran who enjoys a unique
17     name as one of Sri Lanka's foremost actors and a
18     dramatist who has been associated with Sri Lanka's
19     Rupavahini and Richard Karunairajan, a journalist of
20     repute who has worked in several countries and as an
21     information officer with Radio Television Seychelles
22     for six years.
23  2143                 On behalf of TV Ceylon I thank the
24     CRTC and CFMT for giving me the opportunity to make
25     this presentation.  It is my hope that this


 1     broadcasting policy reflecting Canada's linguistic and
 2     cultural diversity will be considered for future
 3     development.
 4  2144                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 5     much, Mr. Suppiramaniam.
 6  2145                 MR. K.S. BALACHANDRAN:  Ladies and
 7     gentlemen, first of all I would like to introduce
 8     myself.  I am K.S. Balachandran, an actor, script
 9     writer, director and broadcaster involved in the Tamil
10     cultural field for more than 30 years and since my
11     arrival in Canada founded Canadian Tamil Artistes
12     Guild, a non-profit corporation, which promotes Tamil
13     theatre and other related activities in Canada by
14     producing Tamil dramas, television films and cultural
15     shows.
16  2146                 As we, the Canadian Tamil Artistes
17     Guild, interacts with TV Ceylon, the weekly Tamil TV
18     program, in Channel 47 of CFMT in the above-mentioned
19     activities to serve our community, we are very much
20     pleased about the contribution made by TV Ceylon in
21     promoting our organization and other similar
22     organizations who serves our community in
23     cultural-related fields.
24  2147                 TV Ceylon is doing an immense service
25     by giving our programs necessary publicity by


 1     broadcasting informative bulletins, interviews and
 2     visual contents of our programs at regular intervals,
 3     enabling our community to get an awareness about our
 4     services.
 5  2148                 As we cannot expect similar
 6     assistance from the mainstream media in Canada, we feel
 7     it is very essential that an ethnic television program
 8     like TV Ceylon should be allowed to serve without any
 9     interruption.
10  2149                 In addition, I would like to mention
11     about the contents of the program provided by TV Ceylon
12     weekly.  As we, the members of our community feel that
13     there is a widening gap between the older and younger
14     generations in our community in several ways, we search
15     for bridging factors which will avoid this situation of
16     a division in the community due to the lack of
17     communication.  We feel that through the promotion of
18     cultural base or foundation in the minds of our younger
19     generation, we can help them to maintain their identity
20     in this multicultural society and also to find unity in
21     diversity.  TV Ceylon is doing a great service by
22     broadcasting culture-based programs, enabling our
23     younger generation to have a first-hand knowledge about
24     our culture and traditional values.
25  2150                 TV Ceylon, as a part of CFMT, also


 1     encourages the participation of young people by giving
 2     top priority to them in their programs, thereby helps
 3     to maintain and carry on our traditional values and
 4     cultural aspects pertaining to our community into the
 5     future as well.  As a visual media catering for an
 6     ethnic community, TV Ceylon has been doing a great
 7     service to both young and old in our community since
 8     its introduction.
 9  2151                 I hope at this juncture the CRTC will
10     curtail the import and usage of foreign produced
11     programs lacking in Canadian content which will by no
12     means promote our cultural identity in this
13     multicultural society.
14  2152                 The CRTC which is doing an
15     appreciable service in helping different linguistic
16     communities to maintain their identity in this
17     multicultural society, which enables them to know about
18     the cultural background of fellow Canadians, also
19     should continue its policy of promoting cultural
20     identity of each community into the next millennium in
21     this wonderful country, which promotes multiculturalism
22     as a motto of its own.  We wish the CRTC every success
23     in this endeavour and related activities.
24  2153                 Thank you.
25  2154                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very


 1     much, Mr. Balachandran.
 2  2155                 MS RHÉAUME:  The next presentation is
 3     by Mr. Shahid Hashmi, Chairman of CanPak Chamber of
 4     Commerce.
 6  2156                 MR. HASHMI:  Good evening, ladies and
 7     gentlemen.
 8  2157                 Canada is like a Butchart Gardens in
 9     Victoria, B.C., where we have all kinds of flowers from
10     all over the world.  I must say that multiculturalism
11     and multilingualism is very important because it is
12     growing and growing every day and the CRTC I believe is
13     doing an excellent job, including CFMT, CHIN and ATN. 
14     I would give a couple of examples of CFMT and ATN, that
15     they had a special which was very important, especially
16     to us, because I am here for 25 years and I haven't had
17     an opportunity to go back to the homeland for 16, 17
18     years.
19  2158                 My kids were born here.  They have
20     never been there, but they know the tradition and
21     culture of Pakistan, of our country.  I am proud to be
22     a Canadian citizen obviously, but that's where I was
23     born and I would like to carry that heritage.
24  2159                 Today my children know everything
25     because of this multiculturalism broadcasting.  Again,


 1     I would say a very special thanks to ATN and CFMT who
 2     are providing these kinds of programs and, obviously,
 3     they need your help to continue doing that super job.
 4  2160                 My other example is I provide tax
 5     tips in Urdu.  I found that that is very help -- on a
 6     TV program obviously, which is very helpful to the
 7     people who are unfortunate to understand income tax in
 8     English.  I find it is very helpful that they are being
 9     educated in their language to file a correct return,
10     reduce Revenue Canada's work and take all the
11     advantages of credit.
12  2161                 Being the Chairman of the Chamber of
13     Commerce I would like to say a few things about what we
14     are trying to do or what we would like to do and why
15     multiculturalism and the media is very important to us. 
16     The CanPak Chamber of Commerce promotes improved trade
17     and commerce, economics, civics and social welfare by
18     exploring business opportunities, an increasing
19     business relationship between Canada, Pakistan and also
20     other countries and by providing Canadian, Pakistani
21     and also other business sectors with more information
22     about businesses; promoting education, and encouraging
23     youngsters to keep their mind and options open, create
24     an educated and unbiased workforce that changes and
25     grows with the world market.


 1  2162                 In conclusion, I would say that
 2     effective communication leads to peace of mind and a
 3     happier and healthier life.
 4  2163                 Thank you very much.
 5  2164                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 6     much.
 7  2165                 MS RHÉAUME:  The next presentation is
 8     by Mr. Valery Tokmakov of Tokmakov City Productions.
10  2166                 MR. TOKMAKOV:  Hello.  My name is
11     Valery Tokmakov.  I am from Russia.  I am born in
12     Moscow.  I am not a KGB agent.  I am not from the
13     Russian Mafia.  I am not a rich, new Russian.  I am a
14     producer of Russian TV programs in Canada.
15  2167                 This year is it exactly 30 years when
16     I start my career in the TV business.  I am sorry that
17     my English is not very well.  Can I ask my friend here
18     to help me for translation?
19  2168                 Thank you.
20  2169                 BY TRANSLATION:  Yes, everything that
21     is written in the presentation you have in your file
22     and it is no sense to read.  Therefore, Mr. Tokmakov
23     would like just to note a few special things that are
24     related to Russian immigration rather than anything
25     else.


 1  2170                 When he came to Canada he never
 2     dreamt that he would be able to work on TV again. 
 3     Seven years ago I think I was lucky.  I met Madeline
 4     Ziniak and from this moment he works in his profession
 5     on TV.  He is happy that his life and the love of his
 6     wife didn't change and they have the pleasure of
 7     continuing the profession that they love so much
 8     because he is a journalist.
 9  2171                 They obtained in Canada incredible
10     experience in TV journalism and TV production that they
11     hadn't gotten before.
12  2172                 It is very unusual for a person who
13     came from the country that was enforcing people to be
14     the same faceless mutants to encourage -- here in
15     Canada to encourage language and TV production in their
16     own language, their own culture and he is incredibly
17     grateful to Canada for that.  It proves the good
18     feelings and relationships within Canada in different
19     cultures that immigrated here during so many years.
20  2173                 Very intense immigration during the
21     last years in Canada has proven the necessity of TV is
22     paramount, from Russia especially, immigration from
23     Russia.
24  2174                 It is a big difference between the
25     Soviet Union that was planning to put together a


 1     nationality of different cultures and languages and
 2     didn't succeed and Canada succeeded in that in his
 3     opinion.
 4  2175                 In Russia journalism on television
 5     was an instrument of oppression, through political
 6     pressure from the central and dictatorship government. 
 7     Instead of information, disinformation, and he is very
 8     happy that this is such a free speech community, that
 9     he can express his opinion and the opinion of all
10     Russian-speaking immigrants.
11  2176                 Since he was working on TV it was all
12     in his eyes what was happening and it was the main
13     reason for his departure, as well as other journalists
14     from the Soviet Union to Canada.  He suffered through
15     the methods of television and the press, religion,
16     culture was suppressed and humiliated.
17  2177                 As he said in the beginning and he
18     repeats again, they were trying to create a nation of
19     mutants who think the same and doing the same thing in
20     the same language.  We all know what it resulted in.
21  2178                 Over a month ago we had a great
22     celebration because Mr. Tokmakov had received Canadian
23     citizenship.  He is very happy to represent the
24     interests of Russian-speaking society on the territory
25     of Canada.


 1  2179                 This is what he wanted to say and I
 2     will say a few words for me.  About six years ago I
 3     started to support this program and I am very proud of
 4     it right now.  There is another interesting factor that
 5     is happening during immigration.  It is not only the
 6     fact that people displaced from their homeland to
 7     another country, but intellectuals displaced.  Any
 8     changes in any country affecting intellectuals the most
 9     in general.  In fact, I immigrated here in 1975 and
10     until 1993 when this TV was organized I haven't found
11     other soul mates in my own community.  I actually met
12     people here that I have never met in my life before and
13     I was disappointed.
14  2180                 I moved into the Bloor and Yonge, a
15     Canadian area and I didn't speak Russian for 10 years. 
16     Then when the TV started I helped it to be organized
17     and then to my surprise I found other Russian-speaking
18     people with whom I was able to communicate and share my
19     poetry, music, culture and so on.
20  2181                 So, I am here just to express my
21     gratitude to the owner and producer, Tokmakov.  Again,
22     I am saying I am very proud of helping this TV to be
23     organized and to survive until this day.
24  2182                 Thank you.
25  2183                 MR. TOKMAKOV:  Thank you very much.


 1  2184                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Congratulations on
 2     your Canadian citizenship, Mr. Tokmakov.
 3  2185                 Thank you for telling us your story
 4     and thank you for playing the role that you did in
 5     helping him communicate with us.  Thank you very much.
 6  2186                 MS RHÉAUME:  The next presenter is Ms
 7     Agnieszka Marszalek, President of the Polish McMaster
 8     Society.  Ms Agnieszka Marszalek.
 9  2187                 We will then move to Mr. Aris
10     Babikian, President of the Armenian National
11     Federation.  He was here earlier, so we will go back
12     later.  Mr. Babikian.
13  2188                 Mr. Michael Luchka, producer of the
14     Kontakt Ukrainian TV Network.
16  2189                 MR. LUCHKA:  Good evening, Madam
17     Chairperson, members of the CRTC consultation board,
18     fellow ethnic broadcasters, dear guests.
19  2190                 My name is Michael Luchka.  I am a
20     graduate of the School and Radio Arts at Ryerson
21     Polytechnic University and I am the host and producer
22     of the Ukrainian television program Kontakt.
23  2191                 The very nature of our program is
24     reflected in its name, Kontakt, and our name and our
25     message has been heard from coast to coast and now


 1     overseas.  Our weekly, one-hour program has tackled
 2     many issues pertinent to not only to the ukrainian
 3     community of Canada, but to all of Canadian society.
 4  2192                 As a representative of the ukrainian
 5     television program Kontakt, I welcome the CRTC decision
 6     to review its policy on third language and ethnic
 7     broadcasting in Canada and appreciate this opportunity
 8     to present the views of the ukrainian Canadian
 9     community.  In the 14 years since the last review,
10     Canada has become a more culturally and linguistically
11     diverse country.  During his recent visit to Ukraine,
12     Prime Minister Jean Chretien told an assembled group of
13     university students that, and I quote, "In Canada, we
14     believe it is possible to be all equal and have
15     different languages, different religions and different
16     colours of the skin.  We call it multiculturalism -- it
17     is equality in diversity."
18  2193                 This diversity has made Canada what
19     it is today.  Ukrainians, in their own unique way, have
20     contributed to the multicultural mosaic of this
21     country, while helping build and reinforce the strong
22     national identity we Canadians maintain.  in fact,
23     almost 80 per cent of the 1 million immigrants that
24     arrived between 1991 and 1996 reported a mother tongue
25     of English or French.  A Canadian heritage and identity


 1     that is common to all must be respected and promoted. 
 2     however, for the full and equitable participation of
 3     Canada's ethnocultural communities in Canada's
 4     mainstream, their cultural and social rights need to be
 5     preserved and enhanced.
 6  2194                 Section 3(1)(d)(iii) of the
 7     Broadcasting Act states that:
 8                            "The Canadian broadcasting
 9                            system should...through its
10                            programming and the employment
11                            opportunities arising out of its
12                            operations, serve the needs and
13                            interests, and reflect the
14                            circumstances and aspirations,
15                            of Canadian men, women and
16                            children, including equal
17                            rights, the linguistic duality
18                            and multicultural nature of
19                            Canadian society and the special
20                            place of aboriginal people
21                            within that society."
22  2195                 We feel that Canada's national
23     television should be mirroring the full range of
24     today's Canadian multicultural reality in drama, news,
25     entertainment and documentaries.  The media must foster


 1     a society that recognizes, respects and reflects a
 2     diversity of cultures such that peoples of all
 3     backgrounds feel a sense of belonging to a truly
 4     inclusive nation that is Canada.  This is of greater
 5     fundamental concern today than ever before in our
 6     history, since 42 per cent of Canada's population is
 7     neither of French or English background.
 8  2196                 While mainstream media should be
 9     reflecting the variety and richness of Canadian
10     community life, ethnic media serves a dual
11     communication purpose:  Internal communication
12     experience sharing with various ethnic communities; and
13     to a lesser extent, providing a window into the old
14     country, making the transition to Canadian life
15     smoother and less alienating.
16  2197                 Third language radio and television
17     programs need to be protected.  Broadcasting of this
18     kind contributes to the maintenance of the quality of
19     life of Canadian senior citizens who constitute an
20     ever-growing segment of our society.  These programs
21     also assist newcomers to learn and adapt to Canadian
22     life, even assist them in training and employment,
23     while the benefits to the younger viewers of our
24     society are endless as well.
25  2198                 Ethnic business, although it is never


 1     contained within strictly ethnic borders, constitutes a
 2     significant portio of general small business in Canada;
 3     community programs become, therefore, an important
 4     element of marketing infrastructure for small or
 5     middle-sized entrepreneurs.
 6  2199                 The Ukrainian community is unique in
 7     Canada from the perspective that Ukrainians are
 8     scattered geographically all across Canada.  Therefore,
 9     a Ukrainian TV program based only in southern Ontario
10     or Toronto, for example, excludes approximately 70 to
11     75 per cent of the Canadian community.  In response to
12     this situation, the ukrainian TV program Kontakt
13     syndicated its weekly one-hour show across Canada using
14     mainstream broadcast stations.  As a result, Kontakt
15     has become the largest, if not the only, ukrainian
16     television network in Canada.  Kontakt presents to the
17     ukrainian communities across the nation a commonality
18     of interest, promotes our unique diversity, influences
19     language retention and, most importantly, strengthens
20     Canadian citizenship.
21  2200                 If there were a policy that
22     mainstream broadcast outlets allocate air time to
23     ethnic communities based on regional presence, more
24     community monies could be redirected towards better
25     regional programming and higher quality production


 1     values overall.  The creation of such a platform would
 2     do much towards the raising of the self-esteem of
 3     ethnic communities and promoting better Canadian
 4     citizenship.
 5  2201                 The CRTC should ensure that grants
 6     are available to help offset the costs connected with
 7     ethnic programming, particularly where these
 8     communities have a considerable audience.
 9  2202                 Canadian public broadcasters should
10     focus on reflecting the full range of Canada's
11     multicultural experience in drama production,
12     entertainment, news coverage and documentary
13     programming.  Ethnic media needs a dedicated
14     broadcasting forum to facilitate inexpensive access to
15     the media.  Ideally, this would entail the creation of
16     a national multilingual network.
17  2203                 Until that time, public and private
18     broadcasters in Canada should be required to allot at
19     least 10 hours per week of ethnic broadcasting which
20     would be allocated to communities based on population,
21     demand and ability of the community to produce or
22     supply programming which contains 50 per cent Canadian
23     content.  This will result on the heightened community
24     awareness of activities across the nation coast to
25     coast, and the promotion of greater tolerance and


 1     understanding among Canada's diverse population, from
 2     which Canada will surely benefit.
 3  2204                 Programming directed specifically to
 4     ethnocultural groups should reflect national, regional
 5     and local experiences and provide information about
 6     Canada.  It should serve as a link to the community,
 7     one that strengthens and unites by informing the
 8     listeners and viewers about the larger Canadian
 9     community of which they are a part.
10  2205                 in conclusion, Kontakt strongly urges
11     the CRTC to undertake the following:
12  2206                 One, renew the commitment it made in
13     1985 to basic principles entrenched in the
14     "Broadcasting Policy Reflecting Canada's Cultural and
15     Linguistic Diversity".  It must ensure that mechanisms
16     are put into place which accords these principles
17     appropriate resources for implementation;
18  2207                 Two, create a national multilingual
19     network to ensure that ethnic programs are broadcast
20     across Canada;
21  2208                 Three, create the position of
22     ombudsman to ensure the Canadian content reflects the
23     multicultural reality of Canada; and
24  2209                 Four, monitor and ensure that
25     producers of ethnocultural and third-language


 1     programming, domestically and internationally, adhere
 2     to the spirit of values entrenched in the Broadcasting
 3     Act, Multiculturalism Act, the Human Rights Act and the
 4     Charter of Rights and Freedoms in the creation of any
 5     programming.
 6  2210                 The medium is the message and the
 7     message comes in many languages.  The Ukrainian TV
 8     network Kontakt send this message and in the process
 9     united Canadians of Ukrainian descent across the
10     country.
11  2211                 We have highlighted and promoted
12     various business ventures and cultural events.  We have
13     served as a forum for many organizations and charities. 
14     We celebrate the accomplishments of other
15     Ukrainian-born Canadians, many of whom have gone on to
16     be successful politicians, entrepreneurs and
17     entertainers and athletes.
18  2212                 Ukrainians pride themselves in their
19     rich culture, their songs and dances and traditional
20     foods and costumes as all ethnic groups do.  We
21     remember our past, as harsh as it is sometimes, and
22     recognize that the future depends on what we do now.
23  2213                 All in all, we as others, honour the
24     heritage that has made us a piece of the multicultural
25     puzzle that we fit into today.  The question standing


 1     before us is whether we can complete this puzzle in
 2     order to see the whole picture, the Canada we all know
 3     it really can be.
 4  2214                 That depends on our willingness to
 5     continue to unite our individual communities as we have
 6     been trying to do, and it also depends on the
 7     willingness of the Canadian government, and namely the
 8     CRTC, to share in our readiness to help make Canada a
 9     better place for all of its citizens and for those who
10     are yet to become its citizens.
11  2215                 I thank the CRTC on behalf of Kontakt
12     for giving me the opportunity to express the concerns
13     and needs regarding third language and ethnic
14     broadcasting.  Thank you.
15  2216                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
16     Luchka.  Did anybody ever tell you that you speak very
17     quickly?  That's an advantage when you only have 10
18     minutes to present.
19  2217                 MR. LUCHKA:  Right.
20  2218                 MS RHÉAUME:  Next is Mr. Joseph La
21     Marca.  Mr. Joseph La Marca.
22  2219                 We will then go to Ms Elaine
23     Teofilovici.
25  2220                 MS TEOFILOVICI:  Members of the


 1     Commission, I am Elaine Teofilovici, Chief Executive
 2     Officer of the YWCA of/du Canada.
 3  2221                 The YWCA of/du Canada is the national
 4     office for 42 YWCAs that work in over 200 communities. 
 5     For more than a century, the YWCA has served women and
 6     their families.  Each year, more than 1 million clients
 7     who reflect the diversity of all Canadians benefit from
 8     our programs and services that including housing,
 9     employment and literacy, childcare, health and wellness
10     and so on.
11  2222                 A number of our associations also
12     provide specific programs to address the needs of
13     immigrant and refugee women, such as second-language
14     learning, settlement services, programming for refugee
15     children, shelters and residences, employment, training
16     and refugee sponsorship programs.
17  2223                 The YWCA also organizes an annual
18     anti-violence public awareness campaign, the YWCA Week
19     Without Violence.  Last year CFMT voluntarily supported
20     the campaign by producing and airing public service
21     announcements.  No mainstream broadcaster would have
22     looked at us twice, yet a campaign like ours addresses
23     important messages that touch all Canadians and seeks
24     to raise awareness in all communities, including
25     ethnocultural ones.


 1  2224                 CFMT's support underlines the value
 2     that ethnic broadcasters place in supporting community
 3     events and important Canadian issues.
 4  2225                 Given its long history of working
 5     with women, the YWCA would like to present its views on
 6     a few issues identified by the Commission.
 7  2226                 One key element of the current ethnic
 8     broadcasting policy is the expectation that all
 9     broadcasters, including English, French and ethnic,
10     will provide programming that reflects the
11     multicultural character of Canada.  English and French
12     broadcasting services have made some efforts to reflect
13     Canada's multicultural nature in faces and names that
14     appear on television and radio.  However, ethnocultural
15     context on mainstream broadcasting services remains
16     very small and, consequently, members of the
17     ethnocultural community rarely find programming and
18     information that specifically addresses their needs.
19  2227                 The Commission is also asking the
20     importance of programming areas A through E in view of
21     Canada's increasing ethnocultural diversity. 
22     Programming Types B, C and E should be given more
23     effort by mainstream radio and television programming
24     since they serve French and English communities, and
25     immigrants whose first or common bond language in the


 1     country of their national origin is French or English. 
 2     The content of Type B and C programming should not only
 3     reflect our Canadian reality, but also inform new
 4     immigrants and refugees of community services, as well
 5     as promote messages of public interest.
 6  2228                 We identify Type E programming as the
 7     best vehicle to promote intercultural exchange between
 8     mainstream and ethnocultural communities.  In our
 9     opinion, it is the type of programming that would best
10     reflect our Canadian mosaic.  The reality is that
11     ethnocultural groups in Canada live with relatively
12     peaceful boundaries, but do not necessarily integrate
13     with each other.  But, more importantly, the larger
14     mainstream public still knows very little about new
15     Canadians.
16  2229                 More original format of Type E
17     programming are needed as it is probably the least
18     produced by mainstream broadcasters, and yet has the
19     most potential to share cultural diversity from the
20     mainstream community to the ethnic communities and vice
21     versa.
22  2230                 On the other hand, Type A programming
23     should be the main focus of ethnic radio and television
24     broadcasters as their goal is to serve existing and
25     emerging ethnocultural communities.  Third-language


 1     programming is not financially advantageous to
 2     broadcasters.  It is a reality of ethnic broadcasters
 3     that cross-subsidization must exist if they are to
 4     fulfil their mandates.  In this context, should public
 5     money be given to support ethnic broadcasting?  How can
 6     ethnic broadcasters produce a variety of quality
 7     standards without financial support?  Should we not
 8     consider pro-rata support for ethnic broadcasters?
 9  2231                 Another key element of the ethnic
10     broadcasting policy is the expectation that members of
11     the ethnocultural community will have access to a wide
12     choice and diversity of third-language programming from
13     a variety of sources, including cable, community
14     channels, multilingual radio and television stations,
15     and specialty and pay television areas.
16  2232                 The availability of specialty and pay
17     television services complements but is not a substitute
18     for third-language programming that is freely available
19     to all on television and radio.  Many new members of
20     ethnocultural communities do not have available funds
21     to pay for additional third-language programming. 
22     Immigrant women who are also single mother shave a
23     greater need for free third languages programming, as
24     they traditionally earn lower wages than their male
25     counterparts and often lack a network to assist them.


 1  2233                 The Commission is also asking whether
 2     priority should be placed on Canadian ethnic
 3     broadcasting services rather than importing foreign
 4     services.
 5  2234                 Foreign programming in third
 6     languages is an important source of entertainment and
 7     information for members of ethnocultural groups.  It
 8     also provides a valuable link to current events in
 9     homeland countries and cultural traditions.
10  2235                 However, foreign programming is not a
11     substitute for Canadian programming in third languages. 
12     Moreover, Canadian programming in third languages
13     continues to become more important as the proportion of
14     immigrants who speak neither official language rises.
15  2236                 Foreign programming does not
16     necessarily reflect the reality of life in Canada.  it
17     often presents information, conveys values or addresses
18     social issues in ways that are fundamentally at odds
19     with how things are done in Canada.  In particular, the
20     manner in which women are depicted in Canada and in
21     other countries can vary greatly.  Canadian programming
22     can inform viewers of Canadian customs and ensures that
23     women are represented as citizens with full rights and
24     equal opportunities.
25  2237                 Third language Canadian programming


 1     also plays an important role of strengthening and
 2     uniting ethnocultural groups by providing information
 3     about community events and association or club
 4     activities.  This programming helps women and their
 5     families to connect with other members of their
 6     community and decrease any sense of isolation that they
 7     may feel in the larger Canadian context.
 8  2238                 In recent years, many programs that
 9     were offered to immigrants have been cut or have become
10     less accessible, creating a void of assistance and of
11     second-language training.  These new policies affect
12     immigrants, especially women, who are not eligible for
13     second-language training after a certain period of
14     time.
15  2239                 Refugee women who do not speak French
16     or English need a great deal of assistance.  Typically,
17     the women we serve come to Canada sponsored by their
18     husband, stay at home with their children and become
19     isolated from mainstream society, not having the
20     opportunity to learn a new language and being forbidden
21     to change traditions of their original culture.  Many
22     are in a stage of unacceptable illiteracy and
23     isolation.
24  2240                 We cannot realistically think that
25     the mainstream broadcasters would consider programming


 1     that targets issues of importance to immigrant and
 2     refugee women.  Ethnic broadcasters, however, can
 3     create programming that addresses the needs expressed
 4     by these women.  For example, programming that directly
 5     impacts women's ability to participate fully in the
 6     democratic process and to be fully informed of their
 7     rights as women.
 8  2241                 Unfortunately, most broadcasters
 9     consider women as a target for advertisers and do not
10     really respond to the needs of women, especially those
11     who immigrate to Canada.  How many broadcasters are
12     women friendly?  I would argue that really not many at
13     all.  The representation I have seen in this room
14     tonight certainly stresses my point.  Yet women compose
15     a large segment of the daytime listeners and they are
16     still the ones who oversee their children's viewing and
17     listening habits.  Although the Commission has not
18     addressed this particular issue, I feel it is my role
19     to raise it.
20  2242                 In conclusion, the YWCA recognizes
21     the value of ethnic programming as the primary vehicle
22     for bridging intercultural barriers, informing and
23     educating new Canadians, promoting culture sharing and
24     helping women in accessing critical information and
25     services which they and their families need.


 1  2243                 Finally, ethnic broadcasters
 2     represent one of the only sources that NGOs can access
 3     to promote critical social messages to ethnocultural
 4     communities.
 5  2244                 Thank you for listening.
 6  2245                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
 7     Teofilovici.
 8  2246                 MS RHÉAUME:  Next, Mr. Syed Daud and
 9     Mr. Zaki Agha.  Mr. Syed Daud.
10  2247                 The following presentation then would
11     be Thiru Thiruchelvan.
12  2248                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Maybe I scared
13     everyone away with my strictness.
14  2249                 MS RHÉAUME:  Some people left for
15     dinner and may be back, rolling in slowly, so we will
16     go back over them later on.
17  2250                 Mr. Mark Mykytiuk.
18  2251                 Ms Clara Dos Santos.
19  2252                 MS DOS SANTOS:  I am here.
20  2253                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will wait for
21     you.  Go ahead.
23  2254                 MS DOS SANTOS:  My name is Clara Dos
24     Santos and I am representing Casa do Alentejo Community
25     Centre of Toronto, one of the largest and most


 1     important organizations in the Portuguese community of
 2     Canada, referred to by many as one of the mainstakes of
 3     Portuguese culture in North America.
 4  2255                 We have an art gallery, an excellent
 5     library, a theatre group and a very dynamic youth
 6     group, the majority of whose members are born in
 7     Canada.
 8  2256                 With a membership of about 600 active
 9     members, we are the recipient of the cultural award of
10     the University of Oporto, the diploma of honour of the
11     Secretary of State for the Communities Abroad at the
12     Foreign Office in Lisbon, have won a variety of awards
13     for our participation in the Toronto International
14     Caravan, including the top prize.  We publish our own
15     magazine and receive regular support from the
16     municipalities of the Province of Alentejo, an area
17     covering virtually half of the Portuguese territory.
18  2257                 Nous prenons les affairs de la
19     Culture bien au sérieux et nous vous remercions par
20     l'opportunitée de nous écouter ce soir.  Notre but est
21     de vous expliquer comme le présent systéme de
22     programmation ethnoculturelle aide les
23     nouveaux-arrivées dan le procés d'intégration au
24     Canasda.  Nous croyons même qu'ils fonctionnent bien.
25  2258                 Ethnic programs, especially on


 1     television, help those whose English is limited,
 2     teaching them about their new country, its laws, health
 3     and legal systems and also what is happening in their
 4     own communities and in Canada as a whole.
 5  2259                 We support our ethnocultural media
 6     because it is the only way we can be aware of how the
 7     community pulsates.  Also, the mainstream media, which
 8     we can also depend upon, will never have the mandate or
 9     the capacity to cover what goes on in the different
10     communities, excepting when something very special
11     occurs -- very often negative reports.  We have no
12     illusions about any foreseeable change.
13  2260                 Nous appuyons inconditionellement la
14     politiquemulticulturelle du gouvernement du Canada,
15     surtout à ce qui concerne nos langues et culture
16     matternelles, qu'elle a mantenu plus au moins intacte. 
17     Au contraire de ce qui pensent des esprits moins
18     ouverts pour la réalités de nos jours, mantenir vivante
19     la langue et la culture nous aide a mieux nos intégrer
20     au sein de la societé canadienne.
21  2261                 It is not possible to be a good
22     Canadian without understanding and being proud about
23     the culture of our ancestors, no matter where they are
24     coming from.
25  2262                 Having access to television programs


 1     from the country of origin is like a window to the
 2     world.  As a matter of fact, it seems a bit strange
 3     that at a time when everyone is aware of the
 4     globalization through the new technologies, there are
 5     those who want to slow an irreversible process.
 6  2263                 We, at Casa do Alentejo, are not
 7     worried about losing our Canadian identity because we
 8     have access to a program from portuguese TV regularly
 9     in our cable system.  At least, they are more
10     educational and more adequate for the children than the
11     violent ones imported from the United States that have
12     nothing to do with our roots, past or present.
13  2264                 Les programmes importés de nos pays
14     d'origine sont trés importants pour nos informer et
15     renseigner au sujet de ce qui se passe au monde.  Ceux,
16     produits au Canada, sont trés souvent la seule source
17     d'information pour des milliers de Canadiens d'autres
18     souches.  Ce qui est trés important pour tous.
19  2265                 We are Canadians first and we do not
20     have identity problems with that.  We feel very
21     strongly that a balanced approach in supporting
22     programs from abroad and programs produced here in
23     third languages, reflecting our differences, are of the
24     utmost importance for Canada.
25  2266                 Parce que nous parlons plusieurs


 1     langues et avons la capacitée de vivre bien entre deux
 2     cultures, ça ne veut pas du tout dire que nous sommes
 3     moins canadiens.
 4  2267                 We reiterate our support for programs
 5     in third languages, the support for the maintenance of
 6     our culture, the ability to understand the values and
 7     the cultural heritage of our parents and would hate to
 8     see our original culture dealt with in the same way
 9     that indifference, lack of understanding and sheer
10     ignorance treated our brothers and sisters of the
11     aboriginal communities of Canada.
12  2268                 The mistakes we make today will be
13     very costly for our children and grandchildren in the
14     future.
15  2269                 Merci beaucoup pour votre attention.
16  2270                 Thank you very much.
17  2271                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
18     much, Ms Dos Santos.  It was good timing.  You arrived
19     just at the right moment.
20  2272                 MS RHÉAUME:  Next is Briget Savari,
21     Director of Outreach Organization.
23  2273                 MS SAVARI:  Commissioners, ladies and
24     gentlemen.  My name is Bridget Savari.  I am a social
25     worker.  I work with families who speak third


 1     languages.
 2  2274                 I came to Canada in 1973 and have
 3     made this beautiful country as my homeland, even though
 4     I pay high taxes.  I am fortunate that I have good
 5     command of the English language.  However, some of the
 6     families I work with have either little or no command
 7     of English or French languages.
 8  2275                 Although today I am representing
 9     Outreach Association, I am also involved in social and
10     community organizations where i meet people from all
11     walks of life.
12  2276                 Outreach Association is a community
13     organization involved in assisting new immigrants to
14     integrate in Canadian society.  Our activities range
15     from guiding them in job search, to adapt to the
16     Canadian way of life, as well as teaching them English. 
17     We hold community events and introduce them to their
18     own community organization for fellowship.
19  2277                 I am deeply involved with community
20     activities that include volunteering for day centre for
21     seniors, Gems of Hope and Heart and Stroke Foundation,
22     to name a few.
23  2278                 My community activities often takes
24     me to apartment complexes in George Town, Don Mills and
25     Crescent Town, just to mention a few.


 1  2279                 Canada's openness in accepting people
 2     from different cultures and backgrounds has created a
 3     cultural mosaic.  Canada's multicultural policies are
 4     helping to preserve art and culture and flourish in
 5     various ethnic groups.
 6  2280                 Although I come in contact with
 7     various ethnic communities, my prime contact is with
 8     South Asians.  Therefore, I will focus this
 9     presentation on the South Asian community.  However, i
10     am sure that most of my remarks and concerns will also
11     apply to other ethnic communities and other third
12     languages.
13  2281                 Before I start my presentation, let
14     me congratulate the CRTC for the approval of Asian
15     Television Network, ATN, which is licensed to provide
16     24 hours, seven days a week service, to South Asian
17     community from coast to coast.  ATN is the only channel
18     which provides programming in various South Asian
19     languages.
20  2282                 ATN channel has been a blessing to
21     those of us who can afford and who can get this
22     channel.  It has not only entertained us, but also has
23     kept us in touch with South Asian culture and arts.
24  2283                 ATN's coverage of local news and
25     cultural events has encouraged the art and culture to


 1     flourish in the community.
 2  2284                 The community events are more
 3     successful because of the free publicity given by Asian
 4     Television network.
 5  2285                 Let us examine the needs of the
 6     people whose mother tongue is not English or French. 
 7     Most of these people are new immigrants who have come
 8     to Canada in the past 20 years.  Some of them have
 9     fully integrated to Canadian society.  However, some
10     still feel isolated, particularly women, senior
11     citizens.  They miss their music, dance and cultural
12     activities.
13  2286                 The South Asian channel was licensed
14     by the CRTC for 24 hours of programming.  However, the
15     cable companies are not providing ATN channel.  The
16     South Asian community is being deprived of the
17     opportunities to tune in the ATN channel.
18  2287                 The only choice left to them is to
19     buy the satellite dish.  They are willing to pay the
20     extra monthly fees to get ATN, but they cannot afford
21     to pay $700 for the satellite dish.  This extra cost is
22     beyond their means.
23  2288                 Furthermore, as we all know, many of
24     the new immigrants when they arrive they live in
25     apartment buildings.  there are restrictions about


 1     having satellite dishes on the balconies.  Some
 2     apartment buildings already include cable facilities in
 3     the rent.  South Asians have no access to ATN service
 4     because cable companies do not carry it.
 5  2289                 The fact is cable companies are not
 6     carrying ATN channel.  They claim they do not have dial
 7     capacity.  Yet, they have space for non-Canadian
 8     channels.
 9  2290                 Cable companies have also delayed the
10     launch of digital system.  Rogers has not yet launched
11     its service.  Shaw's digital service is available only
12     to 50,000 customers.  That too is with an additional
13     cost.
14  2291                 I receive many complaints from South
15     Asian families and in particular from seniors.  They
16     feel their Canadian friends don't have to pay an
17     additional cost for various channels.  This additional
18     monthly fee is a puzzle to them.
19  2292                 Further, I fully support Canada has
20     to safeguard Canadian culture.  I do not agree that
21     Canada should forego from this policy.  Canadian
22     programs promote local talents, gives opportunity to
23     Canadian artists and creates additional employment for
24     Canadians.  I strongly feel that the present policy on
25     Canadian programming content should be maintained.


 1  2293                 Therefore, I would like to conclude
 2     my presentation.  The present broadcasting policy does
 3     not adequately serve the ethnoculture.
 4  2294                 The cable companies must be forced to
 5     speed up the network.  More access should be provided
 6     to channels like Asian Television network on all cable
 7     systems.
 8  2295                 Thank you.
 9  2296                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
10     much, Ms Savari.
11  2297                 MS RHÉAUME:  The next group will be
12     CHUM-TV, Peter Miller, Vice-President and Sarah
13     Crawford.
15  2298                 MS CRAWFORD:  Good evening,
16     Commissioners, fellow presenters, ladies and gentlemen. 
17     We are very pleased to appear on behalf of CHUM
18     Television on this the last day of the public
19     consultations here in Toronto on the Commission's Third
20     Language and Ethnic Programming Consultation.
21  2299                 First, allow me to introduce our
22     panel: with me are Traci Melchor to my left,
23     Entertainment Specialist on CityPulse News and CP24,
24     CHUM's regional 24-hours a day news channel; Peter
25     Miller on my right, Vice-President, Business and


 1     Regulatory Affairs for CHUM Television and Jay Switzer,
 2     Vice-President Programming, CHUM Television; and I am
 3     Sarah Crawford, Director of Media Education for CHUM
 4     Television and Director of Communications for MuchMusic
 5     and MuchMoreMusic, and I am also the Chair of the
 6     Canadian Association of Broadcasters' Joint Societal
 7     Trends and Issues Committee.
 8  2300                 Now, to begin.  As you are probably
 9     aware, we don't bring the perspective of an ethnic
10     broadcaster, but of a broadcaster who has made
11     multi-ethnic and multicultural reflection part of our
12     defining philosophy.
13  2301                 Tonight we would like to outline the
14     unique role that our company, CHUM Television, has
15     played in broadcasting in reflecting the multicultural
16     and multiethnic makeup of this country, to share some
17     of the lessons that we have learned and to offer some
18     thoughts on what they might mean for your ethnic
19     policy.
20  2302                 We will file more detailed written
21     comments on aspects of the Commission's policy on March
22     4.
23  2303                 Before we begin our remarks, we would
24     also like to say how impressed we have been with the
25     breadth of representation at this public consultation


 1     and with the eloquent and heartfelt views that you have
 2     heard, many of which we share.
 3  2304                 As you heard yesterday from Lenny
 4     Lombardi of CHIN, CHUM's first involvement in ethnic
 5     broadcasting in Canada actually predates the creation
 6     of Citytv; it was in 1950 that Allan Waters, founder
 7     and CEO of CHUM Radio, sold airtime to CHIN-Radio
 8     founder Johnny Lombardi to air Italian programming. 
 9     But we are here to talk about the television side of
10     the business.
11  2305                 Citytv was founded in 1971 by four
12     people: among them a Russian immigrant, moses Znaimer;
13     and one of the first and most influential female
14     programmers and executives in Canadian television
15     broadcasting, Phyllis Switzer, who, I might add, is jay
16     Switzer's mother.
17  2306                 Here at CHUM Television, our
18     programming philosophy stems from what we originally
19     proposed, and you accepted, back when Citytv was
20     licensed in 1971.  Our mission was to focus on local,
21     movies and music, and to be uniquely different.  To
22     produce, and I am quoting now, "live, vital programming
23     directed to and reflective of the Toronto community,
24     feature Toronto people, provide public access
25     programming and serve as an outlet for local Toronto


 1     retail advertisers."
 2  2307                 That's what we tried to do on day one
 3     of our business, and it's what we have continued to do. 
 4     And when our broadcasting activities took us onto the
 5     national stage when we ventured into the specialty
 6     television arena, we extended that philosophy to
 7     reflect the diversity of communities and people we
 8     serve, to truly reflect our audience on the air.
 9  2308                 In fact, we would like to underline
10     the fact that we don't see ourselves as broadcasters
11     who provide special coverage of ethnic communities. 
12     Rather, we see ourselves as broadcasters whose defining
13     editorial and business philosophy and mandate is to
14     reflect and provide on-air coverage of Canada and
15     Canadians; plain and simple.
16  2309                 In other words, we have always seen
17     the ethnically and culturally diverse audience as
18     first, when we started Citytv, a Toronto reality, and
19     second when we got into specialty television, a
20     Canadian reality.
21  2310                 Over our 26-year history, Citytv has
22     been committed to reflecting those diverse communities
23     that it serves.  It is fair to say that City broke new
24     ground in broadcasting by doing that very simple thing:
25     we put people on the air who didn't look like


 1     conventional "TV people" but who did look like Toronto.
 2  2311                 Here's a quote from Citytv founder,
 3     President and Executive producer, Moses Znaimer, that
 4     is taken from Citytv's 15th Anniversary Special
 5     television program:
 6                            "Central to the idea of Citytv
 7                            from the very beginning was this
 8                            winning realization: That since
 9                            the Second World War, the
10                            population of Toronto had
11                            undergone a radical change. 
12                            Actually, it wasn't very
13                            difficult for a guy called
14                            Znaimer to figure out that 'the
15                            ethnics' had arrived.  We
16                            decided therefore to reflect
17                            that fact, not only as a matter
18                            of fair play, but also as a
19                            matter of good business."
20  2312                 In other words, we have always known
21     what some people are just starting to figure out: that
22     being truly reflective of the communities we serve
23     simply makes sense.
24  2313                 We have always made our on-air people
25     representative of our diverse community, and they have


 1     become role models who implicitly advertise our hiring
 2     practices to the public.  The message is:  Everybody's
 3     welcome, everyone belongs.
 4  2314                 MS MELCHOR:  Everyone at Citytv and
 5     our other CHUM stations are deeply involved in the
 6     communities we serve.  We support thousands of
 7     community organizations at both the local, regional and
 8     national levels through promotion of their events and
 9     initiatives, donation of goods and services, and -- in
10     the case of our on-air staff, such as myself -- by
11     making appearances and speeches.
12  2315                 We are available regularly to speak
13     to schools about training and careers in broadcasting. 
14     We have participated in thousands of local and national
15     career fairs and seminars, some of which are
16     specifically targeted to the many communities we serve. 
17     I have volunteered with Each One Teach One.  It's a
18     mentoring program that pairs teens of African descent
19     with adults working in the fields they wish to pursue
20     and I had the unique opportunity of working with a
21     group of various people from media outlets in the
22     spring of 1995 at Carleton University, School of
23     Journalism, putting together a diversity report.
24  2316                 We also work with schools and
25     colleagues and industry organizations to develop


 1     mentoring relationships and career opportunities.  In
 2     addition, our company sponsors scholarships in various
 3     aspects of television career education and training.
 4  2317                 This week, the Toronto Star profiled
 5     the challenges which people of colour face in seeking
 6     careers in journalism.  The piece describes the
 7     experience of one of our CityPulse specialists, Jojo
 8     Chintoh, and how tough it was for him to get started in
 9     broadcast journalism.  Citytv gave him the break he
10     needed and he is now a veteran award-winning
11     broadcaster with more than 25 years' experience.
12  2318                 I would just like to add a personal
13     note that I grew up watching Jojo and the reason that i
14     did want to work at Citytv is because I did see people
15     that looked like me on television.
16  2319                 MR. SWITZER:  The other key element
17     of ethnocultural reflection at Citytv is our weekend
18     schedule with CHIN.  Citytv is a conventional
19     broadcaster that carries third-language broadcasting,
20     10 hours a week of some of the most popular Canadian
21     third language programming available throughout
22     Ontario, and on satellite to viewers across the
23     country.  CHIN-TV has been a successful part and I must
24     add an excellent partner doing extraordinary work of
25     our schedule for close to 15 years.


 1  2320                 Each of our CHUM stations recognizes
 2     and serves diverse audiences by reflecting them on the
 3     air and by covering local and regional events, news and
 4     views that they care about.  This approach has been
 5     applied to all of our services, and reflects the
 6     stations' respective markets.  For example, Cable Pulse
 7     24 airs a show called Daily planet that harvests and
 8     rebroadcasts local news shows from around the globe,
 9     mostly in the original language.
10  2321                 As the Commission and many
11     participants here have recognized, an examination of
12     the CRTC's ethnic policy has to address two somewhat
13     conflicting trends.  First, technology.  More channels
14     and increasing channels leads to niche and microniche
15     ethnic services.
16  2322                 Secondly, changes in demographics. 
17     An increasing ethnic population leads to greater
18     mainstream reflection.
19  2323                 In Toronto, having almost hit the 50
20     per cent market, ethnic broadcasting is now mainstream. 
21     The niches are now the languages.  Technology, and
22     particularly digital cable, promise ever-expanding
23     ability to serve individual language groups.  But
24     greater mainstream reflection of ethnic Canadians, in
25     general, is a responsibility and business opportunity


 1     for all.
 2  2324                 So what have we learned over the last
 3     three decades?
 4  2325                 First, a flexible, market by market
 5     approach is essential.  Each of our services are
 6     different, and their respective markets are different. 
 7     What works well for Citytv in Toronto may not be ideal
 8     for CFPL in London.  Our local management have the
 9     autonomy and responsibility to determine what's right
10     for them.
11  2326                 Second, for ethnic
12     reflection/programming to work with audiences, an
13     ethnic sensibility has to be part of the corporate
14     culture.  Our producers and outside partners can't be
15     trained to do it.  They either get it or they don't. 
16     We hire and work with people that get it.
17  2327                 Third, good ethnic programming, like
18     Canadian programming, can stand on its own.  Our local
19     and third-language programming makes a modest return
20     for us and our partners.  Most important, we don't need
21     foreign ethnic services, such as BET, that merely make
22     it harder for Canadian services to compete and provide
23     Canadian programming and reflection.
24  2328                 Fourth, and finally, the advertising
25     community continues to undervalue and undermeasure


 1     niche ethnic audiences.  The good news however is that
 2     the industry is recognizing we have to address this
 3     better and that means more revenue potential.
 4  2329                 MR. MILLER:  What does this all mean
 5     for the Commission's policy?
 6  2330                 The more we look at it, and the more
 7     we hear, suggests to us, at least, that four guiding
 8     principles will be key.  We would be happy to submit
 9     those in writing if you want us to stop now.
10  2331                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Go ahead.
11  2332                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You can't
12     leave us without the four principles.
13  2333                 MR. MILLER:  Fair is fair.
14  2334                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are you going to
15     leave us hanging like that?
16  2335                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  We've been
17     waiting for three days for the four principles.
18  2336                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Frankly, there are
19     other participants who have been here today who have
20     gone over the 10 minutes, so I guess we could let you
21     have one extra minute.
22  2337                 MR. MILLER:  I will see what I can do
23     in a minute.
24  2338                 First, a one size fits all approach
25     cannot work.  The diverse needs of Canadians can only


 1     be met through a diversity of approaches.  The
 2     Commission should not favour one technology or approach
 3     over another.  Increasingly, for our part, we see the
 4     interests of ethnic Canadians well served by a
 5     combination of regional and national ethnic specialty
 6     services, and local stations that provide ethnic
 7     programming/reflection attuned to the markets they
 8     serve.
 9  2339                 Second, flexibility is key.  Market
10     by market, case by case.  Just as no one should be
11     required to air ethnic programming, nor should there
12     necessarily be any limits on the ethnic programming
13     done by non-ethnic broadcasters.
14  2340                 Third, learn from Toronto, because
15     other major markets will follow.  When Citytv went on
16     air, Toronto's ethnic community represented about 10
17     per cent of the total.  Now we are at 50 per cent.
18  2341                 Similar trends with similar
19     implications for broadcasters will occur in other
20     markets across Canada over the next few decades.  The
21     blend of conventional, independent, ethnic and
22     specialty that we have achieved here in Toronto is a
23     pretty good blend.
24  2342                 Fourth and final, let's make ethnic
25     programming a business, not merely an obligation.  As


 1     suggested by the CAB and others at the Canadian
 2     Television Hearing last fall, the cross-subsidy model
 3     is breaking down, and will be less and less viable in
 4     the future.
 5  2343                 For Canadian broadcasting to survive
 6     and prosper, we must make Canadian programming -- and
 7     Canadian ethnic programming -- more of a business.  As
 8     a consequence, for example, we would see that in major
 9     markets with high ethnic populace, be it Toronto,
10     Calgary or Vancouver, ethnic broadcasters should
11     increasingly be able to meet the same Cancon
12     requirements as conventional stations.
13  2344                 We greatly appreciate this
14     opportunity to appear before you today and share our
15     thoughts and look forward to filing more detailed
16     comments a little later.
17  2345                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thanks very much to
18     all of you and that was a very quick wrap-up, Mr.
19     Miller -- much quicker than usual.
20  2346                 Madam Secretary, I wonder if you
21     would mind doing a roll call and we will see how many
22     people are here and then we can sort of determine
23     whether or not we will take a break now and come back
24     and finish everyone off or charge ahead.
25  2347                 MS RHÉAUME:  All right.


 1  2348                 Mr. Syed Daud and Zaki Agha.  Mr.
 2     Thiru Thiruchelvan.  Mr. Mark Myktytiuk.  Jag
 3     Awatramani.  Ramesh Chotai.  Mr. Neeti Ray.  Mr.
 4     Babikian.  Rebecca Lin and Bao Sum Chen.  Mr. Stan
 5     Krol.  Mr. Clyde McNeil.  Mr. Larry Merkopoulos.  Mr.
 6     John Ha.  Mr. Spyros Bourdorkis.  Dr. Judith Pilowsky.
 7     Ms Agnieszka Marszalek.  That's it.
 8  2349                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. La Marca?
 9  2350                 MS RHÉAUME:  Mr. La Marca had advised
10     that he would probably not make it.
11  2351                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  So how many do we
12     have?
13  2352                 MS RHÉAUME:  Six.
14  2353                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are going to
15     take a break for 15 minutes right now until nine
16     o'clock.  We will come back and finish.  I think we
17     have six parties left to go.  It looks like we are not
18     going to be here until 11:30 tonight.
19     --- Short recess at 2045 / Courte suspension à 2045
20     --- Upon resuming at 2100 / Reprise à 2100
21  2354                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Welcome back,
22     ladies and gentlemen.  We are on the home stretch or in
23     the eleventh inning or the ninth inning -- which inning
24     is it?  Obviously I don't play baseball.
25  2355                 Madam Secretary, would you please


 1     call the next party.
 2  2356                 MS RHÉAUME:  Yes.  Mr. Syed Daud and
 3     Mr. Zaki Agha.
 5  2357                 DR. DAUD:  Good evening, ladies and
 6     gentlemen.  My name is Dr. Syed Aslam Daud.  I am the
 7     President of Ahmadiyya Muslim Youth Association, which
 8     is an auxiliary organization of Ahmadiyya Muslim
 9     Community.  We are a non-profit organization with
10     membership worldwide, including all across Canada.
11  2358                 For many years we have been involved
12     in broadcasting programs in Canada in many languages. 
13     These languages include English, Urdu, Hindi, Punjabi
14     and Arabic.  However, the main language that is widely
15     understood among our viewers and listeners is Urdu. 
16     Urdu is in fact a refined product of many languages
17     that includes hindi, Arabic and Persian languages.  So,
18     it is widely understood among Indians, Bangladesh, some
19     Persian and Afghanistan and especially Pakistan.
20  2359                 We have a 24 hour satellite broadcast
21     network popularly known as Muslim Television Ahmadiyya
22     and we also produce a radio program in the Greater
23     Toronto Area.  This broadcast is called Radio
24     Ahmadiyya.
25  2360                 The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community


 1     believes in unity of humanity, but it realizes the
 2     importance of and acknowledges distinct identity of
 3     various societies.  We believe that each society or
 4     culture lot of good values that it can contribute to
 5     the world.  We believe that language plays an important
 6     role in development of societies and also it is a vital
 7     ingredient in survival of a culture.
 8  2361                 Canada offers a multicultural society
 9     and promotes ethnic values.  This makes Canada the
10     number one country in the world.  If we are going to
11     continue promoting multiculturalism and tolerance in
12     our society, then we must accommodate other languages
13     and promote these cultures by acknowledging there
14     language needs.
15  2362                 There have been many organizations in
16     the world who have tried their best to come up with one
17     international language or they have tried to recognize
18     at least one language as an international language. 
19     All these efforts have failed.  The reason being that
20     we cannot force a language over a society.  Language
21     takes a natural course of evolution.  It changes, it
22     develops, it mixes, it marries other languages and
23     sometimes it dies also.  This is always a natural
24     process.
25  2363                 One cannot claim that one language is


 1     superior over another.  A person is always comfortable
 2     and he can express better in his or her mother tongue. 
 3     In fact, the intelligence and performance of a person
 4     can be enhanced by providing him communication
 5     environment in which he or she is more comfortable.  We
 6     should not be naive enough to think that one will
 7     forget his mother tongue or will quickly adapt to a new
 8     language to adapt to a new society.  This is a life
 9     long process.
10  2364                 This is why we are seeing a growing
11     number of TV and radio programs in other languages,
12     that is not including English and French.  We are also
13     seeing new publications in ethnic languages regularly. 
14     A visit to a local grocery store in any community will
15     prove that a large number of new multicultural
16     newspapers and magazines are coming out on a regular
17     basis.
18  2365                 As long as Canada is going to
19     encourage immigration and as long as people choose
20     Canada as their home, we will see an evolution of many
21     languages and we will have to support this evolution if
22     we wish to maintain a healthy multicultural society.
23  2366                 Our broadcasts are used as a tool of
24     information.  Since the late eighties, the Asian
25     community has accelerated its numbers in the thousands,


 1     in the hundreds of thousands.  These immigrants rely on
 2     broadcasts and publications such as ours to guide them
 3     in almost every single matter in their daily lives. 
 4     For example, we tell them where to go and get
 5     groceries, how they can get some information about
 6     lawyers, doctors and other services.
 7  2367                 Canada is being recognized for its
 8     role in multiculturalism.  That is why when CBC aired
 9     the question on who is a Canada a while back, it
10     concluded that Canada is a unique country committed to
11     adapting cultural values in a distinct society.  When
12     you inherit a culture you are not only inheriting a way
13     of life, but also inheriting the language of that
14     culture.
15  2368                 We have a large number of aging
16     population who will never learn English or French, as
17     it is impossible for them to learn a new language at
18     this age.  And there is a huge number who will always
19     speak their mother tongue whenever they get a chance or
20     whenever it is possible.
21  2369                 So, it is important that we realize
22     the need for a third language in Canada.
23  2370                 I thank you very much for giving me
24     this time to present the needs of this language.  Thank
25     you.


 1  2371                 I will now request my counterpart to
 2     have a few minutes.
 3  2372                 MR. AGHA:  I guess I can speak in
 4     stereo, use two microphones.
 5  2373                 I will be very brief.  I just have a
 6     couple of points that I feel are really worthwhile for
 7     this Commission to hear.
 8  2374                 The first one, and they are both
 9     related to economical benefits of having another
10     language.  So far we have been hearing everything about
11     the cultural aspect, but I think this aspect may have
12     been overlooked.
13  2375                 The two benefits that I perceive can
14     benefit the Canadian economy very much relate to having
15     the languages available to the various ethnic
16     background.  Most of the immigrants currently are
17     coming in the form of young professionals who are
18     already qualified to enter the workforce straight away.
19  2376                 Their formative years have been spent
20     in the country of their native origin.  They are able
21     to converse in English, but not as nicely as they could
22     if they had been brought up here.  As such, as they
23     grow older, they are able to communicate, but their
24     mother tongue and their proficiency stays in their
25     mother tongue.


 1  2377                 If we don't have services or if we
 2     don't have provisions for them that they can look
 3     forward to when they retire, they may lose the interest
 4     to stick around.  We already have some of the harshest
 5     weather and not having a language or some other thing
 6     to relate to does not help the situation.  And, in all
 7     likelihood, we can see a drainage of these people when
 8     they are at the maximum age and that is at retirement. 
 9     That is when they have all these pensions, money that
10     is coming to them and if they are not around then all
11     of this money may result in a huge cash outflow from
12     this country.
13  2378                 We see a similar experience every
14     year in the form of snowbirds when they go south to get
15     the warmer sun.
16  2379                 The last aspect that I would like to
17     touch on is the issue of the Canadian mosaic.  As
18     Canadians we pride ourselves at being the Canadian
19     mosaic, unlike the melting pot like our neighbour. 
20     This Canadian mosaic can only be kept alive if we have
21     languages to support them.  Otherwise we will be a
22     Canadian mosaic just like a picture on a wall which is
23     very colourful, but lacks life.
24  2380                 So, I believe for these two reasons
25     we should continue to consider having alternative


 1     languages and not limit ourselves, and because I
 2     believe this will continue to promote the uniqueness of
 3     being a Canadian.
 4  2381                 Thank you very much.
 5  2382                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 6     much, gentlemen.
 7  2383                 MS RHÉAUME:  I will try again the
 8     next two presenters to see if they have arrived.  Mr.
 9     Thiru Thiruchelvan.  Mr. Mark Mykytiuk.
10  2384                 We will then move to Mr. Jag
11     Awatramani of the Sindhi Association.
13  2385                 MR. AWATRAMANI:  Commissioners,
14     ladies and gentlemen, my name is Jag Awatramani.  I am
15     a management consultant.
16  2386                 I came to Canada in 1968 and have
17     adopted this wonderful and beautiful country as my
18     home.  During my business career, many times I had the
19     opportunity to move to the U.S., but I chose to remain
20     in Canada.  I like Canadian multicultural philosophy
21     over melting pot concept in the U.S.
22  2387                 Although I represent today Sindhi
23     Cultural Association, I am also actively involved in
24     various business, social and cultural organizations. 
25     During these activities I come in contact with


 1     Canadians from all walks of life.
 2  2388                 Sindhi Cultural Association is a
 3     vibrant organization promoting fellowship among Sindhi
 4     community from India.  Sindhis are originally from
 5     province of Sindh, which is now part of pakistan. 
 6     Sindhis migrated to India after partition of India and
 7     Pakistan in 1947.  As a cultural association we hold
 8     social events and we participate in various other
 9     Indo-Canadian activities.  Sindhis have their own
10     language and have distinctive alphabets similar to
11     Arabic and Persian.
12  2389                 My other activities include community
13     work as a Rotarian with the Willowdale club,
14     volunteering for Gems of Hope and Heart and Stroke
15     Foundation, member of Executive Committee for
16     Indo-Canada Advisory Group and Board Member for
17     Outreach International.
18  2390                 Prior to venturing as consultant, I
19     was Vice-President for ADT Security Services, a large
20     multinational company and have more than 30 years'
21     experience in business.
22  2391                 I am on the advisory committee for
23     Asian Television Network which received licence from
24     the Commission to broadcast 24 hours a day, seven day s
25     a week to South Asian community.  In fact, I had the


 1     privilege of appearing in person before the Commission
 2     as a member of the ATN team during its successful bid.
 3  2392                 Having stated my background, I wish
 4     to bring to your attention my observations as follows:
 5  2393                 Before I give my comments, let me
 6     describe some of the problems third language speaking
 7     immigrants face in this country.  They find themselves
 8     isolated from their culture.  They feel lost.  They
 9     spend most of their time confines of their home.  This
10     especially true of women and senior citizens.  Some of
11     them do not speak English.  They feel depressed.  Their
12     outside activities are often limited to a few community
13     events.  They long to see a face they can identify to. 
14     When they turn on TV, they see faces they cannot
15     identify with and culture they have not adopted to. 
16     They long for their culture and want to hear voices in
17     their own languages.  They want to hear music of their
18     land.
19  2394                 It takes many years of adjustments
20     before one feels part of Canadian culture.  Even after
21     being in this country for a long time, one does not
22     loose roots.  Everyone enjoys and appreciates his
23     culture, art, dance and music.
24  2395                 I am in Canada for 30 years and I
25     have adopted this country -- Canadian culture, but


 1     still I enjoy hearing the Indian music, see Indian
 2     dances and see faces and culture of India.  Still I can
 3     recall how thrilled I was when Indian program was first
 4     shown on TV in 1971.
 5  2396                 At the same time, while changing
 6     channels often I pause to enjoy dances from Thailand
 7     and Ukraine, acrobats from China or Irish music and
 8     dances.  This is true multiculture when you can see and
 9     enjoy programs from other ethnic communities.
10  2397                 We at Sindhi Cultural Association are
11     thrilled that among multitude of South Asian languages
12     ATN intends to broadcast programs also in Sindhi
13     language.  ATN has in past covered many of our events
14     and broadcast free of cost Sindhi community events.  We
15     really appreciate the support ATN has given to Sindhi
16     community.
17  2398                 We are concerned and disappointed
18     that even though ATN was awarded its own channel in
19     1996, it is not available to vast majority of South
20     Asians.  One some of us who live in houses and can
21     afford the cost of satellite dish are able to get this
22     channel.
23  2399                 Since number of apartment buildings
24     do not allow satellite dishes and since large number of
25     South Asians live in apartment buildings, they are


 1     unable to watch ATN channel.  Most of them are recent
 2     immigrants with limited means and are still prepared to
 3     pay extra to watch ATN channel.
 4  2400                 Many other families and seniors
 5     realize that they will have to pay extra to receive ATN
 6     channel, but they cannot afford to pay for satellite
 7     dishes.  Often this extra cost is beyond their means.
 8  2401                 Cable companies have given excuses
 9     that they do not have a free channel capacity on their
10     dials.  We do not buy their excuses.  Cable companies
11     are willing and are allowed to carry non-Canadian
12     channels.  We do not understand why Canadian channels
13     have not been given priority over non-Canadian
14     channels.
15  2402                 Also, we do not understand why cable
16     companies are not moving fast on digital technology. 
17     Only Shaw Cable has introduced digital service and even
18     that has been introduced to 50,000 households out of
19     1.5 million houses it serves.  Also, we are concerned
20     that cable companies are charging extra for this
21     digital service by way of monthly charge.  We hope the
22     CRTC will insist on a fixed term for this charge.
23  2403                 Even though ATN has been awarded
24     24-hour channel in 1996, cable companies have not
25     allowed ATN to fulfil its own mandate and meet the


 1     needs of South Asian community.  South Asian community,
 2     like other third-language communities, has been treated
 3     second class by cable companies.
 4  2404                 The South Asian community is the
 5     second largest ethnic community in Ontario.  The South
 6     Asian community encompasses not only people from India,
 7     Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh, but also includes
 8     people from the Caribbean Islands, East Africa, Fiji,
 9     South Africa and Guyana to name a few.  Still this
10     community has very limited service on TV.  There are
11     some other South Asian programs on TV, but except for
12     ATN none of them is at prime time.
13  2405                 Yet, nearly two years have passed
14     since ATN was granted a licence to broadcast 24 hours. 
15     The South Asian community has not benefitted and cannot
16     watch and enjoy the South Asian programs every day.
17  2406                 At this time, I would like to move to
18     the question of Canadian versus imported programs.  We
19     strongly feel that we must have Canadian-produced
20     programming on TV.  Canadian-produced programs benefit
21     local talent, creates employment, covers local and
22     community events and above all produces world class
23     artists.  In every community there is a talent that
24     needs to be groomed, encouraged and given exposure. 
25     There is no better media than television.  We in Canada


 1     have depth of local talent, which needs blossoming. 
 2     Even NAFTA agreement protects Canadian culture.
 3  2407                 Therefore, we strongly feel that
 4     Canadian produced programming should be part of any
 5     future CRTC policy.
 6  2408                 Thank you.
 7  2409                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 8     much, Mr. Awatramani.
 9  2410                 MS RHÉAUME:  Our next speaker is Mr.
10     Ramesh Chotai of the Hindu Memdir and Lohana.
12  2411                 MR. CHOTAI:  Commissioners, ladies
13     and gentlemen.  My name is Ramesh Chotai.  I am a
14     pharmacist by profession and am President of General
15     Pharmaceuticals Ltd. and operate a chain of drug
16     stores, and I am also the manufacturer of
17     pharmaceuticals.
18  2412                 I was born in Uganda and came to this
19     country after being expelled from Uganda by General Idi
20     Amin.  Having arrived in Canada as a refugee, ladies
21     and gentlemen, I became an instant Canadian taxpayer.
22  2413                 Canada has been good to me.  Canada
23     has been good to my family.  Although the Unite Nations
24     has for the past successive years classified Canada as
25     the best country in the world to live in, I must add


 1     that for me and for my family Canada has been the best
 2     country to live in since the day we arrived some 27
 3     years ago.  We are proud to be Canadians.
 4  2414                 I am a member of the kinsmen Club of
 5     Oshawa and I am an active Rotarian.  I am President of
 6     the hindu Temple and Cultural Centre of Mississauga and
 7     a permanent trustee of Sanatan Hindu Temple.  I am also
 8     the past-President of Lohana Community.  I am also a
 9     past-President of the Federation of Gujarati
10     Associations.
11  2415                 Having given the background, I intend
12     to bring some observations on the following aspects. 
13     The ethnic broadcasting policy which was established
14     some 14 years ago needs some modifications.
15  2416                 Number two, the introduction of new
16     policy structures which will address the needs of the
17     fast growing ethno-cultural communities.
18  2417                 Number three, the accessability of
19     radio and television on channels to these ethnic
20     communities.
21  2418                 Ladies and gentlemen, Canada is
22     endowed with a human resources of a kind and magnitude
23     that no other country in the world possesses.  We have
24     people in large numbers who speak every language on the
25     globe.  Canada is indeed a global village to use


 1     Marshall McLuhan's enduring Canadian coinage.
 2  2419                 Statistics Canada in its report
 3     indicates that 33 per cent of Toronto's population
 4     speak languages other than English and French.  The
 5     percentage of visible minority will be approximately
 6     16.3 per cent within the first decade of the new
 7     millennium.
 8  2420                 Let me briefly state one of the
 9     biggest challenges faced by non-English or non-French
10     speaking immigrants to our country.  In my opinion,
11     they face cultural isolation.  This is particularly
12     true for senior citizens in the immigrant community and
13     women with young toddlers.  Their world is restricted
14     to sporadic community events and to hear their own
15     language on radio or watch their own programs on
16     television is indeed a treat.
17  2421                 I would like to pose a question:  How
18     well is our current system of radio and television
19     network serving diverse needs of a culturally diverse
20     country?  It brings me to the situation in which Asian
21     Television -- ATN is placed.  I am neither a consultant
22     nor an employee nor of the board of directors of Asian
23     Television Network.  I understand that this South Asian
24     channel was licensed by the Commission some two years
25     ago and we are indeed grateful for that.  Many of us


 1     want access to this service and are prepared to pay for
 2     it, but to the dismay of many the ATN service is not
 3     available through the cable companies.
 4  2422                 Ladies and gentlemen, demographics in
 5     Toronto clearly indicate that the South Asians form the
 6     second largest minority group, yet two years have
 7     elapsed and we cannot see the benefit of this 24 hour
 8     Asian channel.
 9  2423                 Today because of the many
10     cross-cultural influences Canadians are interested in
11     different cultures and television and radio could fill
12     this vacuum.  A dynamic third language programming
13     policy will, in my opinion, have an enormous impact on
14     the population at large.  Social integration is taking
15     place at an alarming pace and it is important that we
16     provide Canadians with knowledge of rich art, culture
17     and talent that exists in different ethnic groups.
18  2424                 We are a trading nation committed to
19     peace and understanding.  Canada is involved globally
20     in peacekeeping missions and our cause will be further
21     enhanced when we have our young people in tune to the
22     cultural needs of other nations.
23  2425                 Finally, we believe that the third
24     language programming policy should be formulated to
25     meet the current and future needs of the fast-changing


 1     society.  We trust that the new millennium will see the
 2     preservation of third-language channels that are now in
 3     operation.  these channels must be allowed to expand to
 4     their full potential, so that our future generation can
 5     reap the benefits and enrich our culture.
 6  2426                 Talking of radio, I must mention that
 7     the leading South Asian radio program, called Radio
 8     India, has been serving the South Asian community for
 9     the last eight and a half years.  Radio Indian provided
10     an adequate amount of radio service to the community
11     with hourly news, public service information and
12     entertainment, eight and a half hours a day, starting
13     at 7:00 p.m. each night, seven days a week.
14  2427                 We have depended on Radio india for
15     community news, announcements and musical presentations
16     that made us all feel at home here in Canada.  The
17     services provided by Radio India have contributed
18     significantly to the non-profit, charitable and
19     religious organizations of the South Asian community in
20     the Greater Toronto Area.  Radio India today is a
21     household name for the South Asians.
22  2428                 Unfortunately, in March 1998 Radio
23     india lost all its brokered time on CKTB Radio, which
24     is in St. Catharines.  It should be noted that Radio
25     india had to seek air time on a station outside


 1     Toronto, after discovering that it was not possible to
 2     obtain that amount of time on a Toronto station in
 3     1998.
 4  2429                 CKTB was subsequently taken over by
 5     new owners and being a mainstream station the new
 6     owners decided not to have ethnic programs on their
 7     radio any more.  Today, Radio India is heard only two
 8     hours daily.
 9  2430                 The South Asian community is
10     currently underserved.  There is need for more ethnic
11     service for the Toronto area that could serve the
12     numerous underserved groups, South Asians being the
13     largest among them.  This will bring the available
14     opportunities for the South Asians at par with other
15     major ethnic groups.
16  2431                 Thank you very much.
17  2432                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
18     much, Mr. Chotai.
19  2433                 MS RHÉAUME:  The next presenter is
20     Mr. Neeti Ray of the Indian Broadcasting Corporation.
22  2434                 MR. RAY:  Thank you very much.
23  2435                 My name is Neeti Prakash Ray.  I am a
24     broadcaster and member of numerous community
25     organizations, including the Ethnic Journalists' and


 1     Writers' Club, the Indo-Canada Chamber of Commerce,
 2     East Indian Professional Residents of Canada, and I am
 3     also the President of a company called Indian Overseas
 4     Broadcasting Corporation, which is an Ontario
 5     corporation, and produces South Asian radio and
 6     television programs.
 7  2436                 I have lived in Canada since 1973,
 8     and have been broadcasting since 1980, when I moved to
 9     Edmonton from Toronto and started broadcasting a South
10     Asian language program on CKER Radio, which continued
11     for nine years.  In 1989 I moved back to Toronto to
12     start a new South Asian radio program.  I contacted
13     every ethnic radio station here in order to obtain
14     brokered air time for my radio program, but all I was
15     offered was an hour or maybe two hours per week during
16     weekdays only.
17  2437                 However, we were able to start a
18     radio program in July 1990, not on a Toronto station,
19     not on a Canadian station.  In fact, I had to go to
20     Grand Island, new York, just across the border from
21     Niagara Falls, to find one hour on a daily basis for a
22     program targeting the Toronto audience.  That radio
23     station had poor coverage of Greater Toronto, and still
24     the outstanding quality and content of that programming
25     called Radio India, provided -- was so well received by


 1     our audience in Toronto, as well as by South Asian
 2     businesses in Greater Toronto, that in a matter of
 3     months we were in a position to expand the program to
 4     two hours or more every day.
 5  2438                 In January 1991 CKTB Radio, 610 on
 6     the AM dial in St. Catharines, agreed to give us two
 7     hours daily on weekdays from 10:00 p.m. to 12:00
 8     midnight.  CKTB Radio's coverage of toronto is better
 9     than that of the U.S. radio station, provided about 5
10     millivolt signal strength to GTA, which is far below
11     the adequate coverage signal strength, but we still
12     took that time from CKTB Radio.
13  2439                 By 1994 because of the popularity of
14     our program, we were able to expand our program from
15     two hours a day to eight and a half hours a day, seven
16     days a week, from 7:00 p.m onward, every day except on
17     Fridays it was for 11 hours from 7:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m.
18     in the morning, providing eight news bulletins daily in
19     English, Hindi and Urdu, community news, public service
20     announcement and, of course, musical entertainment to
21     Canadians of origin in India, Pakistan, Afghanistan,
22     Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Fiji, East Africa and the
23     Caribbean.
24  2440                 In 1995 when the spring BBM, the
25     Bureau of Broadcast Measurement was released, I was


 1     happily surprised to see that during our program
 2     timing, that is 7:00 p.m. to the time late in the night
 3     that BBM measures the radio audience, Radio indian had
 4     10 per cent more listening than CFTR 680 News.  The
 5     average quarter hour listening for CFTR being 8,400 and
 6     that of CKTB Radio 7:00 p.m. onward being 8,900 in the
 7     full coverage area, but over 90 per cent of that in the
 8     Greater Toronto Area.
 9  2441                 This comparison between our program
10     and CFTR was also published in the Toronto Star right
11     after the ratings came out.
12  2442                 By 1997 we were averaging 9,800
13     listeners per quarter hour according to the BBM, with
14     the highest quarter hour listening at 18,200.  The
15     weekly cume being about 79,000.  There are some other
16     South Asian programming also in Toronto and with due
17     respect to them, the BBM released the ratings of the
18     ethnic radio stations only until spring 1996 because
19     after that they stopped publishing the ratings of the
20     stations that did not subscribe to them, did not pay
21     for the ratings and the ethnic stations were not
22     subscribing to them.
23  2443                 That rating in 1996, their last one,
24     showed that the South Asian programs with the next best
25     rating had about one-fifth of our listening.


 1  2444                 It is also notable that 40 per cent
 2     of all our programming has been ethnic Type E.  I must
 3     mention that the Type E programming has received a
 4     special kind of response that we have been very pleased
 5     with, especially the fact that not only the South
 6     Asians, but also the non-South Asians, including
 7     mainstream English-speaking audience have contacted us
 8     in a respectable number to say that they enjoy
 9     listening to our programs that are announced in
10     English, including news in English.
11  2445                 However, in March last year, 1998, we
12     lost all 61 hours of programming time on CKTB Radio
13     after it was bought and taken over by new owners,
14     Affinity Group, who decided not to have any ethnic
15     programming on CKTB Radio.  We scrambled to find time
16     elsewhere, but as expected only a small number of hours
17     were available during weekdays only, nothing on the
18     weekend, which Mr. Angelo Cremisio was very kind enough
19     to offer us on 530 AM, CIAO Radio, Brampton, when he
20     was part-owner of this station at that time.
21  2446                 We took the 10 hours per week air
22     time that was available and are continuing to serve the
23     South Asian community in whatever way we can, given the
24     limited time available.  That is only two hours a day,
25     five days a week.


 1  2447                 The hundreds of calls, faxes, letters
 2     and comments and also meetings, there were people
 3     meeting us at different congregations, it indicated
 4     that the void, the absence of an adequate number of our
 5     programming has created needs to be filled.  The unique
 6     balance and objectivity of presentation that we
 7     maintained during our long hours of programming on CkTB
 8     Radio puts us in an equally unique position to be able
 9     to provide such a balanced programming in the future. 
10     A balance that reflects the changing times.  Just as
11     the ethnic radio and TV stations must provide a
12     broadly-based service, catering to a number of language
13     groups and ethnic groups, we believe that we no longer
14     can have ethnic Type A programs only because we now
15     have three types of ethnic population here.
16  2448                 Number one, those who are newcomers.
17  2449                 Number two, those who came here in
18     the past couple of decades, like ourselves.
19  2450                 And who are part of the second
20     generation ethnic population, born and brought up here
21     in Canada.
22  2451                 Our position is that besides Type A
23     programming which is in our heritage language only, two
24     other types are becoming more and more desirable; Type
25     D programs that include both the heritage language and


 1     English, as well as Type E programs which are in
 2     English, targeting both ethnic and mainstream
 3     audiences.  our organization has kept pace with this
 4     changing needs of our communities.
 5  2452                 I would like to add that for the fact
 6     that our organization does not any more have the large
 7     number of hours that we used to have for our broadcasts
 8     until March 1998, we do not blame the local ethnic
 9     radio stations for not being able to provide such time. 
10     There are so many language groups that have to be
11     served and, obviously, they will wonder who they should
12     sacrifice in order to accommodate us.  But the number
13     of South Asians in Greater Toronto, which is similar to
14     the Chinese population in Greater Toronto, demands the
15     review of the broadcasting policy reflecting ethnic
16     diversity, so that broadcasting services fairly
17     proportionate to the population becomes available.
18  2453                 Our organization, in conclusion,
19     therefore, has three suggestions for the CRTC to be
20     able to eliminate the deficiency.
21  2454                 Number one, the ethnic broadcasting
22     services for the Greater Toronto Area should be
23     expanded.  There is enough revenue in the numerous
24     unserved and underserved ethnic groups, that may be as
25     many as over a dozen in number, including the South


 1     Asians.
 2  2455                 Number two, the mainstream stations
 3     could be encouraged to inculcate ethnic programming in
 4     their schedule, even if it during non-prime time, after
 5     6;00 p.m. or so, and during weekends.  The number of
 6     mainstream radio stations in Greater Toronto is out of
 7     proportion.  Forty-seven per cent of Greater Toronto
 8     population is ethnic, while over 75 per cent, close to
 9     80 per cent of radio stations are mainstream, English
10     or French, and as little as only six radio stations and
11     that's a little over 20 per cent are ethnic radio
12     stations.  So they should consider pitching in.  It
13     will be good for some such stations that we know are
14     losing money, while some available ethnic revenue
15     remains unspent.
16  2456                 Third, lastly, both ethnic and
17     mainstream radio stations, as well as TV stations,
18     should be encouraged to include Type E programming. 
19     Also, it is, therefore, in our opinion very important
20     that the ethnic Type E programs be counted as ethnic
21     content as part of the minimum 60 per cent that ethnic
22     stations have to broadcast.  As for the mainstream
23     stations, the Type E programs will in a healthy and
24     significant way bridge the gap between what we call
25     ethnic and the mainstream.


 1  2457                 Much obliged.  Thank you.
 2  2458                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 3     much, Mr. Ray.
 4  2459                 If you hadn't told me you were a
 5     broadcaster I could have guessed from your voice. 
 6     That's a radio voice if I ever heard one.
 7  2460                 MS RHÉAUME:  The next presenter is
 8     Mr. Aris Babikian, President of the Armenian National
 9     Federation.
11  2461                 MR. BABIKIAN:  Good evening, ladies
12     and gentlemen.  Thank you, first of all, for the
13     opportunity to come and address issues concerning the
14     multicultural community and Canadian society in
15     general.
16  2462                 My name is Aris Babikian.  I am the
17     executive director of the Hai Horizon, Armenian Horizon
18     TV program on CFMT.  I am also the President of the
19     Armenian National Federation, which is an umbrella
20     organization for the Canadian Armenian community.
21  2463                 Hai Horizon is broadcast every
22     Saturday at 9:00 a.m. to our communities in Toronto,
23     Ottawa, Hamilton, Cambridge, St. Catharines and other
24     cities in southern Ontario.  Our program is produced in
25     Canada and is 100 per cent Canadian.  We also


 1     co-operate and exchange material with our sister
 2     program in Montreal.  The Armenian Horizon has been on
 3     the air for the last 15 years.
 4  2464                 Hai horizon reaches 40,000 members of
 5     the Armenian community of southern Ontario.  The
 6     program is bilingual, English and Armenian.  The
 7     content includes entertainment, news, interviews and
 8     community events coverage related to the Armenian
 9     language, heritage, customs, religion, history and
10     culture.  We also try to help newcomers to integrate
11     into the mainstream of Canadian society and become
12     model citizens of Canada.
13  2465                 The program is being produced with
14     great sacrifice by the members of our community.  The
15     anchors, announcers, writers and researchers are all
16     volunteers.  We thank them all.  We also acknowledge
17     the generous involvement of CFMT-TV station for
18     providing us with free airtime.  It's crystal clear to
19     us that without their support our program cannot
20     survive.
21  2466                 Since the introduction of the
22     multiculturalism policy in 1971, Canada has become the
23     envy of the world as model country to live in.  A
24     country where citizens are treated equally, regardless
25     of their race, religion or colour.  Furthermore, the


 1     Canadian people and government not only tolerates
 2     diversity, but also provides diverse groups the
 3     opportunity preserve their culture in contrast with
 4     other countries' melting pot policy.  Canada's
 5     pioneering role in developing multiculturalism has been
 6     studied in many countries and some of them have
 7     followed our footsteps to implement similar policies.
 8  2467                 An integral part and the cornerstone
 9     of the multiculturalism policy is the retention of the
10     mother tongue or the comfort language of its citizen,
11     especially within the ethnic communities.
12  2468                 After the federal and the provincial
13     governments gutted the heritage languages program, the
14     current third language and ethnic broadcasting act was
15     essential in providing a vehicle to the multicultural
16     community to reach its members who are spread all over
17     Canada.
18  2469                 Furthermore, in today's world of
19     deadlines, pressures, long hours of work and financial
20     obligations, the ethnic and third language programs are
21     providing relief and quality time for several
22     generations of the multicultural family to gather
23     together to watch and hear programs which they
24     understand, enjoy and cherish.
25  2470                 To give you an example, in my family


 1     it is the only time when my mother, who does not speak
 2     English, and my niece who is four years old, they sit
 3     down together and watch a TV program.
 4  2471                 As well, these programs are a very
 5     effective way to promote Canada and Canadian values and
 6     principles to the newcomers and to integrate them into
 7     their adopted homeland.  The positive promotion of
 8     Canada and the Canadian way of life internationally is
 9     another benefit that these programs provide.
10  2472                 The Armenian TV program is of
11     critical importance to our smaller communities outside
12     Toronto.  It is their only link to their language,
13     culture and religion.  For the Armenian people the
14     retention of the language, religion and culture is a
15     must.  In 1915 a million and a half Armenians were
16     killed in the first genocide of the twentieth century. 
17     My people paid the ultimate price to safeguard the
18     language, religion and cultural heritage of our nation. 
19     We are privileged and grateful to live in a tolerant
20     country like Canada, where we can preserve our heritage
21     and, simultaneously, contributing to the Canadian
22     mosaic.
23  2473                 Here I would take the privilege of
24     mentioning some of the members of our community who
25     have become very famous Canadians, not only in Canada,


 1     but also internationally, like the famous film director
 2     Atom Egoyan, actor and director Harant Alianak, (ph)
 3     photographers Karsh and Kavouk, (ph) violinist
 4     Catherine Manoukian, (ph) conductor Rafi Armenian, (ph)
 5     comedienne Andrea Martin, opera singer Isabel
 6     Biraktarjan (ph) and so many others in various fields
 7     of culture.
 8  2474                 Also, the Armenian community's
 9     history in Canada dates back over 100 years.
10  2475                 Therefore, it is fundamentally
11     important to retain and support the third language and
12     ethnic programming policy.  Furthermore, it is
13     incumbent on us to provide the opportunity and the
14     resources to further develop and improve such
15     programming.
16  2476                 Our recommendations are:
17  2477                 First, third language and ethnic
18     programming policy should continue.
19  2478                 A third language national network
20     should be created.
21  2479                 Third, funds should be provided to
22     produce higher-quality programming.
23  2480                 Fourth, the market forces should not
24     dictate our policy on third-language programming.
25  2481                 Fifth, free programming in third


 1     language should be available to all ethnic groups
 2     regardless of their size and strength.
 3  2482                 Sixth, an ombudsman should be
 4     appointed for the third language and ethnic
 5     programming.
 6  2483                 In conclusion, we see homogenous
 7     European states which have fought each other for
 8     centuries coming together in a new and optimistic super
 9     multicultural Europe.  We have seen numerous examples
10     of depredation caused by nationalism, intolerance and
11     the instance of a uniculture.
12  2484                 Canada is renowned around the world
13     for its visionary multicultural policies.  It is this
14     human and enlightened policy which has enabled Canada
15     to absorb people from some 160 countries, and also help
16     them to live with each other amicably.
17  2485                 We cannot afford to renounce policy
18     which has made Canada the best place to live.
19  2486                 Thank you.
20  2487                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
21     much, Mr. Babikian.  Thank you for the list of Canadian
22     Armenians who have become famous.  I knew some of them,
23     but not all of them.
24  2488                 MS RHÉAUME:  The next presenters are
25     Rebecca Liu and Bao Sum Chen.


 2  2489                 MS LIU:  Good evening, Madam Chair,
 3     Commissioners, Commission staff and members of the
 4     public.
 5  2490                 My name is Rebecca Liu and I came
 6     from China and immigrated to Canada a few years ago.  I
 7     speak not only English, but also my first language,
 8     Mandarin.
 9  2491                 I love watching TV programs and
10     listening to radio programs in my own language,
11     especially the local productions provided by Fairchild
12     Television and Fairchild Radio.  I applaud the good
13     work that Fairchild has done so far for the community,
14     and I believe that these shows will actually help me
15     adapt to the Canadian society faster and easier.
16  2492                 As you may realize, there is an
17     increasing number of Mandarin-speaking people from
18     Mainland China and Taiwan who have migrated to Canada
19     in the last couple of years.  They contribute to the
20     multicultural identity that is so unique to our
21     country.
22  2493                 As a resident in Toronto, many of my
23     friends and relatives noticed the limited mandarin
24     programs offered by TV and radio do not sufficiently
25     serve this group of Canadians.  I am sure it will be


 1     very good news for the Mandarin community at large
 2     should the CRTC recognize our need and seriously look
 3     into the situation where a licensed ethnic language
 4     service on both TV and radio has not been adequately
 5     delivered to that community.
 6  2494                 I thank the Commission for allowing
 7     me the opportunity to provide my comments in this
 8     hearing.  Thank you.
 9  2495                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
10     much, Ms Liu.
11  2496                 MS CHEN:  Madam Chair, Commissioners,
12     Commission staff and members of the public.  My name is
13     Bao Sum Chem and I am from Taiwan and came to Canada
14     with my family seven years ago.
15  2497                 According to Statistics Canada's
16     official data, the Mandarin-speaking population in
17     Canada has been increasing significantly and we are
18     craving for our own language TV and radio program.
19  2498                 Unlike other Canadians who are
20     offered many choice of television and radio
21     programming, a lot of the Chinese Canadians rely on
22     Fairchild's Mandarin program on both TV and radio as
23     their only source of daily news, entertainment and
24     information.
25  2499                 And, more importantly, we rely on


 1     Fairchild's services to help us to adapt to Canadian
 2     society.  However, the total air time for a Mandarin
 3     program is so inadequate, and many of my friends and
 4     relatives from the Taiwanese community strongly believe
 5     that the limited Mandarin programs now cannot cope with
 6     the increasing demand by the Mandarin-speaking
 7     population.
 8  2500                 My friends and relatives in Vancouver
 9     mentioned to me that they love watching the Mandarin TV
10     programs on Talentvision, particularly the news and the
11     variety shows.  Also, the total air time of Mandarin
12     radio programs are so much longer than what we have in
13     Toronto.
14  2501                 I hope that the CRTC could understand
15     the needs of the growing Mandarin community in Toronto.
16  2502                 I sincerely hope that the CRTC will
17     really listen to our voices.  Thank you for giving me
18     this opportunity to speak out my opinion at this
19     hearing.
20  2503                 Thank you.
21  2504                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms Chen.
22  2505                 MS RHÉAUME:  Next we will hear from
23     Mr. Stan Krol of the Polish Credit Union.
25  2506                 MR. KROL:  Thank you.


 1  2507                 Madam Chairman, Mr. Commissioner,
 2     ladies and gentlemen.  My name is Stan Krol and I am
 3     the President and CEO of St. Stanislaus  - St.
 4     Casimir's Polish Parishes Credit Union Limited, the
 5     producer of Polish Studio, a one-hour Polish language
 6     program aired by CHIN on Citytv every Saturday from
 7     11:00 a.m. to 12:00 noon.
 8  2508                 St. Stanislaus - St. Casimir's Polish
 9     Credit Union is the largest parish credit union in the
10     world, with about 40,000 members and 14 branches
11     located in southern Ontario, from Oshawa to Windsor. 
12     Our credit union is represented by Polish-Canadians
13     from all walks of life and age groups.
14  2509                 Polish Studio is on the air since
15     1988, produced by our credit union since 1992. 
16     According to the Bureau of Broadcast Measurement,
17     Polish Studio is one of the most watched ethnic
18     programs aired by CHIN.  It has a potential audience of
19     300,000, of which about 200,000 are of Polish descent
20     and the other 100,000 are Canadians of Ukrainian,
21     Byelorussian, Lithuanian and Jewish descent who speak
22     Polish.
23  2510                 The program is transmitted in
24     southern Ontario and it is retransmitted in
25     Newfoundland, Quebec and the Northwest Territories. 


 1     The program is produced by Mr. Tadeusz Lis, a graduate
 2     of the Film and TV Directing Department of the Film
 3     Academy of Lodz in Poland.  He is the producer of many
 4     well-known television dramas and documentaries
 5     broadcast in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Germany.
 6  2511                 The program is also hosted by
 7     distinguished Polish journalists, writers and radio
 8     personalities, such as Edward Zyman, Henryk Bartul,
 9     Marek Kusiba, Adam Polanski and Piotr Hoffman.
10  2512                 As producers of Polish Studio we can
11     see how the program satisfies the many needs of the
12     Polish-Canadian community.  First, it is for many
13     people a major source of information about Poland and
14     life in the Polish community in Canada.
15  2513                 Every week we report news from Poland
16     and present events that occurred in the Polish-Canadian
17     community.  The work of charitable organizations are
18     reported, in addition to work of Polish artists and
19     writers.  Guests featured on our program include
20     representatives of every walk of life, including
21     religious, political, cultural and professional.
22  2514                 We have featured the most popular
23     athletes and world champions.  Hockey greats such as
24     Bobby Orr, and young Daniel Tkaczuk were our guests
25     last year, and Dominik Hasek this year.


 1  2515                 From the artistic world we have
 2     hosted the most recognized artists from poland and
 3     displayed their talents.
 4  2516                 From the political world, we
 5     interviewed Prime Minister Chretien two weeks ago just
 6     before his official visit to Poland, and in the past
 7     many Ministers, Senators and MPs.  Along with numerous
 8     Polish politicians, we hosted Lech Walesa, former
 9     President of Poland and founder of Solidarity.
10  2517                 From the phone calls and letters of
11     support that we receive, it is obvious that the program
12     is watched and well received by young and old.  it
13     satisfies a need inherent in immigrants living in
14     Canada.  It also gives businesses an opportunity to
15     market their services and contribute to the economy.
16  2518                 All important community events,
17     whether religious, cultural or artistic are covered by
18     Polish Studio.  In this sense, our program is
19     fulfilling the important function of integrating
20     immigrants into the Canadian cultural mosaic.
21  2519                 By presenting Polish culture, history
22     and news from Poland, we are also addressing the needs
23     of Canadian students of Polish descent who want to know
24     their cultural and religious roots.
25  2520                 In summary, I wish to confirm that


 1     Polish Studio is satisfying the religious, cultural and
 2     political needs of the Polish community across all
 3     demographic lines.  The program has become a community
 4     institution.  We consider it as part of the benefit of
 5     living in a free and democratic country such as Canada.
 6  2521                 We urge the Commission to continue
 7     their support of ethnic programming such as Polish
 8     Studio and all the other programs aired by CHIN.
 9  2522                 Thank you for your time and
10     attention.
11  2523                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for your
12     time, Mr. Krol.
13  2524                 MS RHÉAUME:  We will now hear Mr.
14     Clyde McNeil.
16  2525                 MR. McNEIL:  Good evening.  You all,
17     Madam Chairman and members of the panel, have exhibited
18     extraordinary tenacity in sitting through these last
19     three days.
20  2526                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  So have you.  We
21     are all in this together.
22  2527                 MR. McNEIL:  Yes, and it's almost
23     there.
24  2528                 We have made an extensive written
25     submission which you will receive within the next


 1     couple of days.  I wish to highlight and talk about
 2     just a couple of points that I have been hearing over
 3     the last two days and which are mentioned in our
 4     submission and I would like to highlight them.
 5  2529                 First and foremost, we like to talk
 6     about the fact of the role of the CRTC.  You must
 7     recognize by now that the ethnic broadcasting policy
 8     does not only need modification; it needs wholesale
 9     changes based on what you have been hearing, what I
10     have been hearing and what we have submitted.
11  2530                 What we are saying is that wholesale
12     changes are needed to reflect the population that the
13     CRTC is putting out, regulations and policies to
14     govern.
15  2531                 About 12 years ago I went down to
16     Ontario Place to see a concern by a black entertainer
17     by the name of Al Jarreau.  When he started one of his
18     very popular songs at the time, which was a monster hit
19     in the United States, called "L.O.V.E." the audience at
20     Ontario Place just went wild.  He said, "Thank you very
21     much," and I noticed that a lot of people in the
22     audience here listen to late night radio.  And do you
23     know what that implication was?  That that music was
24     only placed on late night radio.
25  2532                 I went -- after the show I got


 1     backstage and I was asking him, "This is Toronto, you
 2     know.  You didn't have the right to make such a
 3     comment."  He said, "Yes, I have the right.  I am by
 4     any standards a major performing artist and I came to
 5     Toronto and no mainstream media agreed to interview
 6     me."
 7  2533                 Between 12 years ago and now there
 8     has been progress, but ever so slow.  We look at the
 9     role of the CRTC in levelling the playing field.  It's
10     important that when you come up with any new policy,
11     any changes, that it levels the playing field because
12     what is happening is the population, the ethnic
13     population that we have here in Toronto they not only
14     want to get on the playing field; they want to take
15     everything to the next level.  People want to exhibit
16     ownership.  People want to have control over
17     programming and all those things that go into the whole
18     milieu that has to be reflected in your policy.
19  2534                 So I urge you that when you change,
20     you modify, you update, whatever the words you use, the
21     policy, it must reflect the community, the population
22     which you serve.
23  2535                 The 1991 census indicated that Canada
24     had a population of 26.9 million.  Of that, the visible
25     minority made up 2.5 million.  That was 9.4 per cent of


 1     the population.
 2  2536                 Now, it grew from 1986 from 6.3;
 3     1991, 9.4; and in 1996 it's 14.2.  The projection is
 4     that by the time the next census comes around it will
 5     be 17.7 per cent.
 6  2537                 Now, we have heard a lot about the
 7     population, the ethnic population of Toronto and what
 8     happens to it in the year 2000.  But I want to tell you
 9     this, in 1986 the spending power of the ethnic
10     population was $76 billion and it is projected by the
11     year 2001 it will rise to $311 billion.
12  2538                 Now, these figures they come from
13     StatsCan with some extrapolation.  Now, it means that
14     the ethnic community have an economic base.  Never mind
15     what mainstream media is saying, the ethnic community
16     has an economic base and it is with this in mind we ask
17     that when you do that modification, that change, that
18     retooling of the ethnic broadcasting policy it reflects
19     the fact that we are not only here in numbers, but we
20     have economic input into society.
21  2539                 It is important that the CRTC
22     understand that at this point the ethnic population has
23     matured.  While we are ready for changes, it is
24     important that the changes go in the right direction. 
25     Just to give a little anecdote, at this point we cannot


 1     make an omelette without breaking the egg, and in this
 2     case the egg is the policy and the regulations that are
 3     put out by the CRTC.  So, it's important that by the
 4     end of the day we are not interested in who is
 5     listening.  We are interested in who is paying
 6     attention so that attention is converted into a proper
 7     policy that is reflected in the population and is
 8     reflected in our economic contribution to society.
 9  2540                 The black community, we are in a very
10     tenuous position at this particular point because at
11     the risk of incurring the wrath of some of my
12     colleagues, we have a problem in that English is our
13     main language.  I don't have to talk about what that
14     does for us because we are, as we say in Trinidad, we
15     are neither fish nor fowl.  We don't have a language
16     that qualifies us on the ethnic section, and then
17     mainstream media say we service you because you speak
18     English.  So that in any attempts we have in trying to
19     get ourselves positioned, we are faced with that
20     problem of language and on the other side the problem
21     of ethnicity.
22  2541                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think Joseph
23     Heller called that Catch-22.
24  2542                 MR. McNEIL:  Yes, Catch-22.
25  2543                 So, it's important that when again


 1     you are coming up with your new policy that all these
 2     things that we talk about in our submission go into the
 3     mix.
 4  2544                 I thank you very much for listening
 5     so attentively over the last three days.  I thank you
 6     very much for the opportunity to come and address you. 
 7     I just wish before I close to let you know that I am
 8     wearing three hats here this evening.  I am the
 9     President of the Caribbean Cultural Workshop, which is
10     a non-profit community organization responsible for
11     sensitizing, culturally, spiritually and socially both
12     our community and the larger society.
13  2545                 I am here as the producer of
14     programming both for radio and television.  What is
15     interesting about some of the programming that we
16     produce is that we get to send it down to the Caribbean
17     because the Caribbean people are very much interested
18     in what we are doing here in North America, whereas in
19     most cases it is going the other way around.
20  2546                 And, of course, I am here in the
21     capacity where I have a company that we have been
22     trying to break into mainstream media and for all the
23     reasons I give here are the reasons that we are kept
24     out.  It is unfortunate because we have an economic
25     stake in all of this and Canada is our home.  We are


 1     not going anywhere.  We are here to stay and we want
 2     you to help us make the best of it.
 3  2547                 Thank you very much and we appreciate
 4     the time you gave us.
 5  2548                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 6     much, Mr. McNeil.  Thank you for the figures that you
 7     pointed out to us from StatsCan.  I wasn't aware of the
 8     magnitude of those figures.
 9  2549                 I just want to reassure you that we
10     are not just listening, but paying attention.  I am
11     also relieved to hear that you feel we have an ongoing
12     role because someone actually suggested yesterday that
13     we were obsolete, so maybe it is somewhere in between.
14  2550                 MR. McNEIL:  No, not at all.  I never
15     see the CRTC as obsolete.
16  2551                 If you will allow me just to make one
17     point, most regulatory functions, groups that function
18     in preserving the status quo, but the CRTC over the
19     last 12 years has helped in changing the broadcast face
20     so that we can feel part of it.  The analogy I want to
21     give for that is that I was a Sergeant in the army and
22     every time I see a soldier, I see anybody from the army
23     going down the road I identify with that.  That is part
24     of my history, that is part of me.  I was in the
25     Canadian army.


 1  2552                 So that if we could get that same
 2     piece of identification to transpose over to the media,
 3     we will have less problems with the kids.  We will have
 4     a society that can work together and live more
 5     harmoniously.  Thank you.
 6  2553                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you so much.
 7  2554                 MS RHÉAUME:  Mr. Larry Mirkopoulos. 
 8     Mr. John Ha.
 9  2555                 Mr. Spyros Bourdorkis and Ms Vicky
10     Karpeta.
12  2556                 MR. BOURDORKIS:  Yes, Madam Chairman,
13     I am here tonight to address my concerns and the
14     concerns of many ethnocultural groups which are not
15     represented by the Hellenic Canadian Federation, as
16     well as for the Cypriotic community at large.
17  2557                 Because it is very late, I will be
18     very terse and just making a few points and certainly I
19     will submit written submissions to the Commission
20     within the next two weeks or so.
21  2558                 The very first thing that I would
22     like to say is that in 1994 I visited CHIN, 100.7, and
23     requested to view the promise of performance of that
24     station.  What I have found was that the program
25     designated to the Cypriotic community was sold to a


 1     film group.
 2  2559                 I discussed this matter with Mr.
 3     Redhead, their programming director at CHIN, as well as
 4     with Mr. Leonardo Lombardi and, for the record, Madam
 5     Chairman, I must say that Mr. Lombardi was very
 6     receptive, very polite and very understanding.  He had
 7     promised me to reinstate the program within two weeks'
 8     time and I agreed with him that two weeks' time was
 9     very reasonable to reschedule the other programs.
10  2560                 However, two weeks later when I
11     contacted the station, Mr. Lombardi was not able to
12     give me the answer.  I had informed at that time the
13     then President of the Canadian Hellenic Federation
14     which has the mandate to oversee the community media
15     and Mr. George Manios at that time had promised to me
16     that he was going to speak to Mr. Lombardi to reinstate
17     the program.  However, no progress has been made with
18     respect to that program until today.
19  2561                 The second things is at CIRV I had
20     the opportunity to view the promise of performance made
21     to the Commission in 1986.  CIRV is comprised of five
22     communities, the Portuguese, the Spanish, Greek, Indian
23     and Chinese.  Sometime after 1998 the program which was
24     allocated to the Greek community, according to the
25     promise of performance which I have obtained from the


 1     CRTC, it states that it is 26 hours and 50 minutes
 2     weekly.
 3  2562                 Mr. William Vrumst (ph), who was the
 4     producer of the Greek program was also the
 5     Vice-President of that station.  In 1988 -- I believe
 6     that that year Mr. Vrumst (ph) had been removed from
 7     that position and was replaced by Mr. Marinos
 8     Giorgatos (ph).  Since then the program reduced from
 9     26.5 -- 26 point 50 minutes to 22 hours, which two
10     hours were allocated to the -- designated on the
11     promise of performance as a community program under the
12     title Voice of Cyprus.  That program was produced until
13     1991.
14  2563                 In September 1991 the station
15     appointed the first female producer in the Greek
16     community, Mrs. Vicky Karpeta, who was then at that
17     time was charged the amount of $300 for 90 minutes
18     program.  It was an agreement with the station that the
19     station would make available to Mrs. Karpeta the
20     Commission's decision authorizing the station to sell
21     the program.  It was understood that the rate which the
22     station was charged Mrs. Karpeta was the rate which the
23     Commission has approved to the station and it was
24     understood that if funds were allocated for this
25     program the station would have made it available to


 1     Mrs. Karpeta.
 2  2564                 However, this had never been
 3     materialized and sometimes later the program -- Mrs.
 4     Karpeta was dismissed.  The program ceased to exist
 5     since 1992.
 6  2565                 The Greek Cypriotic community, Madam
 7     Chairman, does not have any other means to convey the
 8     message.  It is very well known that the Canadian
 9     government has supported the cause of the Greek
10     Cypriots in every international community, and it is
11     very well known that there are many Canadians who have
12     served in Cyprus in the green line from 1961 or 1963 I
13     believe.
14  2566                 I request from the Commission to
15     intervene and reinstate these two programs as soon as
16     possible.
17  2567                 Furthermore, since 1993 the Greek
18     program from 22 hours now is reduced to 15 and
19     gradually was eliminated from the air 10 months ago.
20  2568                 So, I request from the Commission
21     again to reinstate these hours to the Greek community
22     because the Greek community really is underserved. 
23     There are two cables, and I believe one SCMO which is
24     not very clear today, that this SCMO belongs to the
25     CHCR.  The information that I have, again from the


 1     CRTC, it is not clear either.  However, this is the
 2     situation that there are only two cables and I take it
 3     that an SCMO as well.
 4  2569                 For the Greek community we have to
 5     pay the cable, the Rogers or the Shaw, in order to
 6     receive the signal from the SCMO by purchasing a device
 7     which costs $200.  This is the price they sell it at.
 8  2570                 At CHIN there were 20 hours of FM. 
 9     This has been reduced to 17.5, of which five is FM and
10     12.5 AM.  Unfortunately, the AM does not have the
11     range, the capacity to reach beyond the central of
12     Scarborough City.  So that I think must be rectified as
13     well.
14  2571                 Now, furthermore, I had the
15     opportunity to view certain documents of the CFMT.  At
16     CFMT, Channel 47, in the promise of performance when
17     first this station was licensed, the hours allocated to
18     the Greek community and according to the documents in
19     my possession, as well as to the information provided
20     to me from the licensing department of the CRTC, the
21     CRTC had approved to the Greek community 312 hours at
22     CFMT, which is six hours weekly.
23  2572                 I will not refer to the situation
24     prior to 1992 because I did not monitor the station at
25     that time.  However, I have got information that from


 1     1986 from the time CFMT was licensed to 1992 these
 2     hours were produced by Mr. Maniatokis who is the
 3     President of Odyssey Television Network Inc.
 4  2573                 At that time, Mr. Maniatokis was an
 5     employee, not a producer, of CFMT.  The employer to Mr.
 6     Maniatokis was Mr. Stan Papulkis.  He is the producer
 7     and according to the application of Mr. Maniatokis,
 8     submitted to the Commission when he requested a
 9     licence, I have found that Mr. Maniatokis was paying
10     the CFMT $1,000 per hour, and mr. Maniatokis claimed
11     that the CRTC that the cost was excessive and he could
12     not continue the production.
13  2574                 However, I contacted the CFMT and at
14     the time when CFMT was producing only 30 minutes of
15     local programming, I was told that Mr. Stan Papulkis
16     was the executive producer.  No more information with
17     regard to this program.
18  2575                 When I said to them that I have in my
19     possession a promise of performance which I obtained
20     from the examination room from the CRTC, and the hours
21     which the Commission allocated to this program is not
22     30 minutes, but six hours, Mrs. Jeniak -- I believe
23     that is her name -- hang up the phone at this point.
24  2576                 A further search into this, I
25     discovered and this document is in my possession today


 1     and I can submit it to the Commission, that Mr. Stan
 2     Papulkis is a producer of the Greek program.  The
 3     executive producer -- I would like to correct that.  It
 4     is headed, it is listed as the executive producer of
 5     the Greek program.  The executive producer of the
 6     Macedonian Heritage which is the film group, the
 7     executive producer of a Chinese program, the executive
 8     producer of an Indian program and if we add up all
 9     these hours we are equal to six hours, which the
10     Commission has approved for the Greek community.
11  2577                 Therefore, I went to the projected
12     financial statement for that station, as well as I did
13     that with CIRV and I found that nowhere posting
14     revenues from air time selling to producers.
15  2578                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Bourdorkis,
16     have you put this information in writing to the
17     Commission?
18  2579                 MR. BOURDORKIS:  I did not put it in
19     writing, but I will file a submission with the
20     Commission within the next two weeks.
21  2580                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I would
22     respectfully suggest that if you have a complaint that
23     you submit that as a complaint to the Commission with
24     the information that you have gathered, so that it can
25     be looked at.  And that if you have comments on the


 1     policy which is the purpose of our public consultation
 2     here tonight, that you submit those by March 4, but,
 3     unfortunately, you have been going for 15 minutes.  The
 4     situation is really far too complex for us to deal with
 5     and as much as I appreciate that you would like to put
 6     this on the table, this is not really the venue for
 7     doing that.
 8  2581                 So, if you have a very brief comment,
 9     maybe one minute with respect to the ethnic
10     broadcasting policy itself, not to this particular
11     situation, but to the ethnic policy perhaps you could
12     share that with us and then we will wrap up for the
13     day.
14  2582                 MR. BOURDORKIS:  Yes, madam, it will
15     take me less than a minute.
16  2583                 Number one, I request from the
17     Commission to fully enforce the promise of performance
18     of the licensees.
19  2584                 Number two, I would like to change
20     the regulation and request from the producers who
21     receive public funding to acknowledge that at the
22     beginning of the program and when the program ends. 
23     This is it.
24  2585                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  That was less than
25     a minute.


 1  2586                 MR. BOURDORKIS:  Thank you very much.
 2  2587                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you so much.
 3  2588                 Madam Secretary, do we have any
 4     further participants?
 5  2589                 MS RHÉAUME:  Maybe we could go over
 6     one final time just in case some of the missing people
 7     showed up.
 8  2590                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is there anybody in
 9     the room who is registered?
10  2591                 There are so few people left, but I
11     would like to say that this has been a fascinating and
12     for us an extremely useful process.  We learned a lot. 
13     We heard a lot.  We were paying attention.
14  2592                 I understand from talking to some of
15     the other Commissioners that they have had very
16     interesting sessions in other parts of the country.  We
17     are looking forward to coming together and talking
18     through the views that have been expressed and looking
19     at how that will fit into the development of this new
20     policy.
21  2593                 I want to thank you so much for your
22     contributions and with that we will adjourn this public
23     consultation.  Thank you so much.
24     --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2230 /
25         L'audience est ajournée à 2230

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