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Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

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                       SUBJECT / SUJET:

                  SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

Delta Sydney Hotel                      Delta Sydney Hotel
Room Mariner A & B                      Salle Mariner A & B
300 Esplanade                           300, Esplanade 
Sydney, N.S.                            Sydney (N.-É.)

March 9, 1999                           Le 9 mars 1999

tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668


In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.


Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.


                 Canadian Radio-television and
                 Telecommunications Commission

              Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
                télécommunications canadiennes

                  Transcript / Transcription

              Public Hearing / Audience publique

                  SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)


David Colville                          Chairperson / Président

Stuart Langford                         Commissioner / Commissioner


Alastair Stewart                        Commission Counsel /
                                        Avocat du Conseil

Brien Rodger                            Regional Director/
                                        Halifax Regional Office / 
                                        Directeur régional, Halifax

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

Delta Sydney Hotel                      Delta Sydney Hotel
Room Mariner A & B                      Salle Mariner A & B
300 Esplanade                           300, Esplanade
Sydney, N.S.                            Sydney (N.-É.)

March 9, 1999                           Le 9 mars 1999





Presentation by / Présentation par:

Mr. Frank Corbett                                            7
Ms Elizaabeth Cusack                                        12
Mr. Parker Donham                                           19
Mr. Pat Bates                                               30
Ms Kelly Jerrott                                            39
Ms Beverly Brett                                            44
Mr. Ernie Curry                                             51
Ms Helen MacDonald                                          62
Mr. Herman Wills                                            64
Ms Ann Verrill                                              74
Mr. Douglas Brown                                           85
Mr. Frank Gaudet                                            93
Mr. Ray MacKay                                              94
Mr. Phil MacDonald                                         101
Ms Jo-Ann Citrigno                                         107
Mr. David Papazian                                         114
Mr. Bob Peters                                             123
Mr. Alan Bird                                              126
Ms Theresa MacNeil                                         130
M. Charland                                                142
Mr. James St. Clair                                        190





Presentation by / Présentation par:

Mr. Alan Leith                                             198
Ms Vanessa Morrison                                        205
Mr. Paul Jackson                                           208
Ms Marjorie MacDonald                                      217
Ms Sandra Dunn                                             222
Mr. Robert MacNeil                                         227
Mr. James MacSwain                                         236
Mr. Ronald Kaplin                                          245
Mr. Dan Yakimchuk                                          249
M. Yvon Samson                                             252
Mr. Walter MacKinnon                                       260
Mr. Andrew Cochran                                         265
Ms Johanna Padelt                                          276
Mme Gisèle Blanc-Lavoie                                    281
Mr. Neil Livingstone                                       312

Reply by: / Réplique par:

Ms Susan Mitton                                            174
Mr. Fred Mattocks                                          298



 1                               Sydney, N.S. / Sydney (N.-É.)
 2     --- Upon commencing on Tuesday, March 9, 1999
 3         at 1300 / L'audience reprend le mardi
 4         9 mars 1999, à 1300
 5  1                    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good afternoon,
 6     ladies and gentlemen.  I think we will get started.
 7  2                    Welcome to this consultation
 8     regarding the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, the
 9     CBC.  My name is David Colville, and I am the
10     Vice-Chair, Telecommunications, and the Atlantic Region
11     Commissioner for the CRTC.
12  3                    With me today is Commissioner Stuart
13     Langford.
14  4                    We are here today to gather your
15     views and comments on CBC radio and television and
16     seeking, in your opinion, how the Canadian Broadcasting
17     Corporation should fulfil its role in the coming years.
18  5                    The CBC is a national public service,
19     broadcasting in English as well as in French, and it
20     plays an important role in the Canadian broadcasting
21     system.  Today many elements are constantly being added
22     to the broadcasting system as new technologies
23     multiply, converge, open up new horizons, and
24     increasingly offer new services.
25  6                    In this context, we want to know what


 1     your needs and expectations are, as viewers and
 2     listeners of the CBC.
 3  7                    Given that, it is very important that
 4     the Commission hears what you have to say, and we must
 5     not lose sight of the fact that the CRTC itself is a
 6     public organization that serves Canadian citizens.  In
 7     this capacity, we are responsible to you.  This is why
 8     my fellow Commissioners and I find it vital to come and
 9     meet with you to discuss these issues, and why we are
10     holding this series of regional consultations from one
11     end of the country to the other, in 11 Canadian cities,
12     from March 9th to the 18th.
13  8                    I might note that we have
14     deliberately tried to come to some of the communities
15     that we have not typically gone to in the past.  For
16     example, many people have said:  "Why didn't you go to
17     Halifax?  Why are you going to Sydney?"  It is because
18     we don't often get to Sydney.
19  9                    We can't do all of the cities in the
20     country, and we have decided to try to go to some of
21     the places where we typically would not go.  We
22     appreciate that that may make it difficult for some of
23     the people in some other communities to have their
24     voices heard, but we are certainly entertaining written
25     comments and there will be a main hearing coming up on


 1     the CBC renewal, as well.
 2  10                   These consultations are designed to
 3     give you a chance to express your opinion on the CBC's
 4     role, the programming it offers, and the direction it
 5     should take at the national, regional and local levels.
 6  11                   Through these consultations we hope
 7     to enter into an open dialogue with you and to hear
 8     your concerns.  Your comments will form part of the
 9     public record, which will be added to the record of the
10     public hearing on the CBC that will begin in Hull on
11     May 25th.
12  12                   At this upcoming hearing, the one in
13     May, the Commission will examine the CBC's application
14     for the renewal of its licences, including radio,
15     television and its specialty services, Newsworld and
16     Réseau de l'information.
17  13                   You can also take part in that public
18     hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 
19     If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the
20     specific licence renewals being examined when you file
21     your comments.
22  14                   Coming back to today's consultations,
23     let me introduce the CRTC staff who will be assisting
24     us today.
25  15                   Alastair Stewart is our legal


 1     counsel.  We are not allowed to to anywhere without our
 2     lawyers being with us, for fear we might get ourselves
 3     in trouble.  So Alastair is here to protect me.
 4  16                   Also with us is Brien Rodger, who is
 5     the Regional Director for our Halifax Regional Office. 
 6     Please feel free to call on them with any questions you
 7     might have about the process today or any other matter
 8     related to this licence renewal process.
 9  17                   So that you will all have an
10     opportunity to speak, we are going to ask you to limit
11     your presentation to ten minutes.  We can be a little
12     bit flexible with respect to that, but I would ask your
13     indulgence in that respect, because we do have
14     20-some-odd people registered for this afternoon's
15     session and another group for tonight.  In order to
16     give everybody an opportunity to have their say, we
17     would ask you to respect the time limit.
18  18                   As these consultations are a forum
19     designed especially for you, and we want to listen to
20     as many participants as possible, it is not our
21     intention to grill you with questions, although we may
22     have a question or two of clarification on your
23     presentation as we go through the day.
24  19                   There are representatives from the
25     CBC here, and they will have an opportunity to respond


 1     at the end of the session to any of the comments that
 2     they have heard through the day.
 3  20                   Before we start, I will ask our
 4     counsel to go over some of the housekeeping matters
 5     regarding the conduct of our consultation.
 6  21                   Mr. Stewart.
 7  22                   MR. STEWART:  Thank you very much,
 8     Commissioner Colville.
 9  23                   Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen;
10     bonjour, mesdames et messieurs.
11  24                   Just a few housekeeping items.  I
12     will invite each person who has registered to make his
13     or her presentation in a predetermined order, that I
14     think you are familiar with.  I would ask people to
15     identify themselves for the purposes of the court
16     reporter -- or the reporter, I should say; this is not
17     a court proceeding -- for the purpose of the
18     transcript.  As Commissioner Colville pointed out, your
19     comments will form part of the public record for this
20     proceeding.
21  25                   I would like you to press the white
22     button in front of the microphone whenever you are
23     about to speak, so that the reporter can get your
24     comments down.
25  26                   Once you have finished your


 1     presentation, please again press the white button to
 2     turn the system off.
 3  27                   For those of you who need
 4     translation, there are head sets; the gentlemen to my
 5     left have them.  You can get them from those people.
 6  28                   Ceci complète mes remarques
 7     d'introduction, Monsieur le président.
 8  29                   Would you like me to introduce the
 9     first speaker?
10  30                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Before we do that,
11     I want to underscore again that while this may seem
12     somewhat intimidating with the microphone in front of
13     you, and the fact that we are transcribing this, we do
14     that because we want to have a written record of this. 
15     However, we want to try to make this as informal as we
16     can.  So I hope you will feel comfortable in presenting
17     your views.
18  31                   As I said earlier, we are not here to
19     grill you with questions.  We may have a question or
20     two of clarification, but if anybody feels
21     uncomfortable with taking any questions, please
22     indicate so and we will certainly respect that.
23  32                   With that, Mr. Stewart, will you call
24     the first presenter.
25  33                   MR. STEWART:  Yes.  I now invite Mr.


 1     Frank Corbett to make his presentation.
 2  34                   Mr. Corbett.
 4  35                   MR. CORBETT:  Thank you, Mr.
 5     Chairman.
 6  36                   By way of introduction, I would say I
 7     am a local member of the Legislative Assembly, and I
 8     have also worked in the private broadcast sector for
 9     over 20 years.  I would suspect that my comments would
10     be coming from both streams, but I would hope that they
11     are understandable.
12  37                   The Canadian Broadcasting
13     Corporation, both radio and television, exists to
14     provide Canadians with a voice -- all Canadians with a
15     voice, that is.  Since its inception, part of CBC's
16     mandate has been the bringing together and sharing of
17     the diverse cultures which thrive across our nation.
18  38                   Regrettably, CBC has only been
19     partially successful in fulfilling this mandate.  CBC
20     television is boldly attempting to provide Canadians
21     with diverse, all-Canadian programming in the face of
22     continual budget cuts and increasing competition from
23     the private sector, and in particularly specialty
24     channels.
25  39                   Meanwhile, CBC radio suffers as a


 1     result of the CRTC's role in allowing the radio
 2     industry to become a tightly formatted and restrictive
 3     broadcaster.
 4  40                   I would like to make a few comments
 5     first about television and then I will go on to radio.
 6  41                   Concerning television, funding is one
 7     of the major challenges facing CBC television and a
 8     lack of a defined plan.  Those parties accountable for
 9     the CBC have not positioned the broadcaster to be
10     competitive or to provide local programming.  For CBC
11     television to successfully fulfil its mandate -- i.e.,
12     the promotion of a diverse voice across Canada -- the
13     broadcaster needs to re-establish itself as a local
14     broadcaster.
15  42                   Currently, the CRTC does not require
16     cable distributors to comply with local content
17     requirements, we feel.  Also, the CRTC does not require
18     or strongly support an initiative that would require
19     the CBC to re-establish itself in this role.  This
20     would provide CBC with the opportunity to provide
21     Canadians nationally, regionally and locally with one
22     strong solid voice.
23  43                   Those are the few comments I would
24     like to make about television.
25  44                   In the radio area, as we expect, in


 1     regions such as Cape Breton the presence of CBC is
 2     essential.  Smaller markets, particularly rural areas,
 3     regard the CBC as their sole being of receiving and
 4     dispersing information with respect to their community. 
 5     This is especially true of CBC radio.
 6  45                   The current work stoppage aside, we
 7     feel the CRTC has indirectly frustrated the ability to
 8     carry out its mandate because of private radio station
 9     owners since the 1980s and 1990s have been allowed to
10     make their own rules apparently.
11  46                   Twenty years ago there were many
12     diverse signals out there, but private sector owners in
13     radio have become smaller and smaller, and it seems the
14     signal is controlled by fewer and fewer broadcasters,
15     providing for a diversification of the signal.
16  47                   Now with only a handful of owners,
17     diversity is nearly non-existent.  In effect, the
18     situation has gotten to the point where station owners
19     are acting as if they are self-regulated as opposed to
20     being regulated by the Commission.
21  48                   The emergence of these formats has
22     left little or no room for community reflection in
23     programming.  The CBC is the only one out there
24     striving to provide diverse voices, a goal they
25     continue to meet despite funding cuts.


 1  49                   However, CBC needs to look at local
 2     instead of just regional positioning.  A feeder system
 3     needs to be created.  Such a system would enable CBC to
 4     air programs which would display local talent and
 5     concerns in conjunction with the local, national and
 6     regional programming.  A system of this nature would
 7     ensure that Cape Bretoners receive more than a "Toronto
 8     voice".
 9  50                   The last page or so outlined the
10     current obstacles that prevent the CBC from providing
11     services to under-serviced local areas such as Cape
12     Breton.  This presentation would not be complete unless
13     the time was taken to reflect upon the solutions to
14     these problems.  A few of these solutions I have
15     mentioned throughout the previous discussion.
16  51                   The CRTC should require broadcasters
17     to pursue not only a Canadian content mandate, but also
18     a local content mandate.  Such a mandate would be
19     limited to only the CBC, Global, Baton and others in
20     the broadcasting television signal area.
21  52                   Develop a feeder system with local
22     radio stations.  This would result in CBC radio
23     providing a more diverse range of programming.
24  53                   The above-mentioned solutions do not
25     address the current fiscal problem with the CBC.  The


 1     CBC is our radio station, our television network.  It
 2     is crucial the diverse programming the CBC attempts to
 3     produce be supported by government.  Currently this
 4     support is not there.
 5  54                   The CRTC must recognize that if CBC
 6     is to remain our radio station, our television station,
 7     it is going to need a fiscal assistant.  As a
 8     consequence of these discussions, I would urge the CRTC
 9     to recommend that the government give CBC preferential
10     treatment and provide the dollars necessary for CBC to
11     feed into local matters.
12  55                   In conclusion, the people of Cape
13     Breton and other local under-serviced areas depend upon
14     CBC for a voice.  Unless the CRTC urges the Federal
15     Government to act, the small voice that these
16     communities currently have will be silent.
17  56                   Thank you.
18  57                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
19     much, Mr. Corbett.
20  58                   Mr. Stewart.
21                                                        1320
22  59                   M. STEWART:  Merci, monsieur le
23     Président.
24  60                   I would now like to call upon
25     Ms Elizabeth Cusack to make her presentation.


 1  61                   Ms. Cusack.
 3  62                   MS CUSACK:  Thank you.  In order to
 4     stay within the time constraint of ten minutes, I am
 5     going to read my notes.
 6  63                   My name is Elizabeth Cusack, Q.C.  I
 7     am a lawyer who has practised in Sydney, Nova Scotia
 8     since 1974.  I was born in 1949 here in Cape Breton.  I
 9     am a supporter of Friends of Canadian Broadcasting and
10     Media Watch.  I have freelanced on CBC radio locally,
11     nationally and regionally in earlier years but have no
12     current affiliation with the CBC.
13  64                   I wish to emphasize the importance of
14     retaining what little we have left of local CBC radio
15     programming.  We once had local CBC and private TV and
16     radio programming.  Today we have no local TV
17     programming, except for one religious show, and we have
18     little local substance on our three canned commercial
19     stations -- all of them owned by Maritime Broadcasting.
20  65                   Although we have not gotten down to
21     the appalling 2.8 per cent viewer exposure to local
22     Canadian content, which is the norm for Canadian TV, we
23     are getting close to that with lack of local content on
24     our private radio sources, because of the canned nature
25     of the programming.


 1  66                   The current CBC strike dramatically
 2     indicates the vital importance of an active, physically
 3     present local CBC station.  Currently, information and
 4     comment about the local economy is almost totally
 5     absent except for very sketchy coverage in our very
 6     small local Southam daily.  Because of the strike at
 7     this time of grave economic crisis, the only media
 8     source able to provide a public voice to those able to
 9     make a contribution to the discussion as to the
10     solution of our economic problem is silenced.
11  67                   At present, the only local news we
12     hear in regional broadcasts is that which is dramatic
13     and about such things as demonstrations and sit-ins.
14  68                   While it may seem a small point, when
15     there was a storm a week or two ago, Cape Bretoners
16     couldn't figure out whether there was school for most
17     of the island's children because Halifax broadcasters
18     didn't understand our geography.  They issued several
19     contradictory directives.
20  69                   A few weeks earlier, at night, when
21     we had no local programming, I searched the dial trying
22     to find out about Devco's fate.  All I heard were Bill
23     Clinton stories and Shania Twain.
24  70                   You only have to hear from frustrated
25     people along route 4 south of Ben Eoin -- and you can


 1     look that up -- and those in Richmond County to know
 2     that Halifax programming is not appropriate and that
 3     local non-commercial programming is weak in substance. 
 4     People along Route 4 in Richmond County and some of
 5     Inverness County cannot get CBC Cape Breton.  The CBC
 6     provides the only interactive radio voice in Cape
 7     Breton, and part of the island is not even served by
 8     our local station.
 9  71                   When I listen to our local CBC
10     programs, I learn about and have the option to
11     participate in the discussion of local issues
12     respecting the arts, literature, politics, education,
13     economic development, sports and humour, all from a
14     local perspective and all from local interest.
15  72                   When these programs are replaced by
16     provincial formats -- as particularly often happens
17     with our afternoon show, to save money -- there is
18     little opportunity for us to hear Cape Breton music,
19     Cape Breton news, Cape Breton voices and concerns.
20  73                   Before the big cutbacks, the local
21     station recorded and produced numerous talented Cape
22     Bretoners, who are now known nationally and in some
23     cases internationally, or who, if they stayed closer to
24     home -- like Max MacDonald -- are producing cultural
25     events which bring millions into our economy each year. 


 1     Moreover, senior traditional artists were recorded and
 2     their work preserved by the local CBC.
 3  74                   I emphasize "before the cutbacks".
 4  75                   I can say without fear of
 5     contradiction from any local person, present our
 6     outside, that there is no doubt that without CBI we
 7     would not have had the island-wide support which was a
 8     necessary precedent to the ability of our artists to
 9     obtain exposure off island.  This was in no small part
10     due to the "word of mouth" from those who first heard
11     our artists on CBC radio locally.
12  76                   One only has to listen to recent
13     Saturday morning regional programming on CBC Maritimes
14     to know that there is no hope or possibility that Cape
15     Breton artists will have exposure without a
16     properly-funded, local CBC station.
17  77                   It is unreasonable to suggest that
18     commercial radio can fill that void or that it will be
19     filled by regional programming, which only supports
20     local Cape Breton artists after they've made it --
21     except in unusual circumstances.
22  78                   While I urge a return of local and
23     regional TV and radio, I wish to emphasize that what is
24     left of the national English programming on CBC is of
25     extreme importance, not only as a source of


 1     high-quality, cultural programs, such as "Choral
 2     Concert" to "Ideas", but there is the information and
 3     news programming which is so vital to our nation.
 4  79                   CBC programs are responsive to
 5     grassroots issues of interest to women, cultural and
 6     ethnic or racial groups, and First Nations peoples. 
 7     Those interests will never be served in the lower
 8     populated areas of the country without CBC.
 9  80                   It is impossible to conceive that
10     commercial radio will fill that gap.  One only has to
11     cruise the thousands of radio stations available on the
12     Net to hear that the best quality programming comes
13     from public radio and particularly independent,
14     publicly-funded radio in Great Britain, Ireland and
15     Canada in particular.
16  81                   With the exception of limited
17     specialty stations and university stations, there is
18     little in North America that isn't formatted in one
19     canned mode or another.  Web radio's version of ethnic
20     programming does not even include a single French
21     language station.
22  82                   Most of canada is too small to
23     support such good quality stations as CJRT in Toronto.
24  83                   The demographics of this country are
25     such that we cannot have high quality private local


 1     programming of the calibre produced by the national
 2     CBC.  The CBC has the ability to provide us with a
 3     broad spectrum of music -- classical, folk, jazz, world
 4     music and so on.  Some of this is available on the
 5     Galaxy Channels for those who can afford satellite TV,
 6     but without any intelligent information about the
 7     content.
 8  84                   The CBC provides the only consistent
 9     national broadcast outlet for Canadian novelists,
10     poets, scientists, historians and philosophers.
11  85                   I wish to add my voice to that of a
12     number of others who would rather see hockey relegated
13     to CTV and TNN.  The disruption of regular programming
14     in the spring is extremely annoying to those of us who
15     are not hockey lovers and drives non-hockey fans to
16     American programming.
17  86                   I wish to emphasize the importance of
18     CBC's independence, an independence which is being
19     eroded by tactics to force the CBC to take on both the
20     appearance and substance of government patsyism.  This,
21     together with the use of cutbacks to weaken the CBC's
22     ability to provide quality programming, is the biggest
23     threat of to our beloved institution.
24  87                   I do not think it melodramatic or
25     alarmist to suggest that the cutbacks and tightening of


 1     political control are a threat to our nationhood. 
 2     Privatization and/or increased commercialization will
 3     destroy the soul of the CBC.  The CBC's integrity is
 4     founded on its fine tradition of journalistic
 5     objectivity -- regardless of the complaints of those
 6     who are occasionally cast in an unattractive spotlight.
 7  88                   Finally, I wish to underscore the
 8     importance of the CBC to women.
 9  89                   The CBC treats women with more
10     dignity and respect, and provides better employment
11     opportunities, than the private sector.  More
12     importantly, the CBC is interested in the advancement
13     of women.
14  90                   I would like to refer in particular
15     to International Women's Day and a wonderful program
16     last night on "As It Happens", about the genital
17     mutilation of women in Africa.  That sort of
18     information is not available on commercial radio.
19  91                   Thank you for the opportunity to be
20     heard.  I trust you will listen to the concerns which I
21     expect you will hear from others in Cape Breton, and
22     nationwide, about the importance of retaining local
23     services in smaller but discreetly insular and diverse
24     local communities.
25  92                   I commend to you the well-written


 1     brief of the Friends of Canadian Broadcasting about the
 2     importance of local CBC TV programming in Winnipeg. 
 3     That report is equally applicable to local communities
 4     in Atlantic Canada and is published on the CRTC's web
 5     site.
 6  93                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 7     much, Ms Cusack.
 8  94                   Mr. Stewart.
 9                                                        1330
10  95                   MR. STEWART:  I would now like to
11     invite Mr. Parker Donham to make his presentation.
13  96                   MR. DONHAM:  Good afternoon.  Thank
14     you for the opportunity to present here.
15  97                   I want to say at the outset that I
16     endorse pretty well everything that Liz Cusack just
17     said.  As it happens, because I think I have some
18     unusual experience in and around the CBC, I am
19     discussing quite a different set of issues, but nothing
20     that I say should be taken as in any way detracting
21     from the very important points that Liz has raised.  I
22     heartily agree with much of what she said.
23  98                   Out of curiosity, is the Province
24     registered to make any presentation at these hearings?
25  99                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  No.


 1  100                  MR. DONHAM:  I wonder if that would
 2     have been the case when you were handling those matters
 3     for the province, Mr. Commissioner.
 4  101                  I should declare at the outset that I
 5     make a slice of my income from current affairs
 6     freelance work for the CBC, and mostly regional
 7     programs at that.  So I have a personal stake in many
 8     of the issues before the Commission, and I probably
 9     won't be one of the advocates of killing off supper
10     hour news shows.
11  102                  For just over a year, in the late
12     1970s, the CBC employed me to produce its "Information
13     Morning" program in Sydney.  It was one of the most
14     unpleasant workplaces I ever experiences.
15  103                  Managers with too little to do and
16     too much time to do it in constantly squared off
17     against a small cadre of underworked staffers who used
18     their union affiliations as a shield against production
19     responsibilities.  This infused the simplest tasks with
20     potential for personal conflict.  A web of unspoken
21     rules throttled productivity.  At coffee and meal
22     breaks work ground to a halt, and the staff lunchroom
23     overflowed.
24  104                  All this happened despite a great
25     majority of energetic broadcasters, men and women of


 1     goodwill, who only wanted to produce first-rate
 2     programs.
 3  105                  Then something remarkable occurred. 
 4     A few years ago, in one of the seemingly perpetual
 5     rounds of CBC cuts, the last management position in
 6     Sydney disappeared.  Around the same time the CBC
 7     bought off Sydney's most truculent unionists with
 8     pensions.
 9  106                  Today there is not a single manager
10     in the building.  They had to fly one in to run the
11     essential equipment during the strike.  Yet the place
12     runs like a top.  You don't find malcontents skulking
13     around the lunchroom.  Staffers are at their desks or
14     out in the field doing their job -- and doing it very
15     well.  The results are remarkable.
16  107                  Sydney produces an exceptionally good
17     "Information Morning" program, far better than when I
18     produced it, with half again as many bodies.  Its
19     coverage of local issues is more detailed and
20     thoughtful than that of the daily papers available
21     locally.  Listeners have rewarded this performance.
22  108                  As private radio stations -- perhaps
23     in part because of CRTC policies -- abandoned their
24     community ties and homogenized into a bland sameness,
25     "Information Morning's" ratings have soared.


 1  109                  I believe there is a lesson for the
 2     CBC in this experience and in the experience of another
 3     Cape Breton industry that has undergone wrenching
 4     change.  I am here with the novel suggestion that the
 5     CBC should look to a railway for inspiration.
 6  110                  In the fall of 1993 Canadian National
 7     sold its Truro to Sydney section of its mainline to
 8     Railtex, the U.S. company that buys money-losing branch
 9     lines from mainline railways and turns them into profit
10     centres.
11  111                  Railtex's formula works like this: 
12     Each Railtex line operates as a separate business unit
13     under a local manager given broad authority over all
14     aspects of the business.  A Railtex line typically
15     employs half as many workers as its mainline
16     predecessor, and those workers must master a variety of
17     trades.  Instead of the traditional three-man crew,
18     consisting of engineer, brakeman and conductor, a
19     Railtex train operates with two transportation
20     specialists.  On an outbound run, one might drive the
21     train while the other performs the outdoor duties;
22     homeward bound, they switch.  If the run takes less
23     than eight hours, they might finish the shift doing an
24     oil change or even cutting brush along the track.
25  112                  The company issues business cards to


 1     each of its employees and encourages them to keep an
 2     eye cocked for shipping prospects.  "If you notice a
 3     truck down at the other end of the loading dock", they
 4     are told, "find out what it is carrying, where it is
 5     going.  Our sales people may not be able to get that
 6     information going in the front door."
 7  113                  Instead of waiting for higher-ups to
 8     make decisions in the command and control style of CN,
 9     employees are free to solve problems themselves as they
10     arise.
11  114                  I rode a Railtex train once from
12     Sydney to the switching yard at Harbour Bushy, and the
13     two transpecs, Everett Sullivan and Howie Clow, told me
14     about the first time they ran into trouble after
15     Railtex had taken over.  They were carrying a heavy
16     load of steel, newsprint and 30 cars of coal for Nova
17     Scotia Power's Trenton power plant.
18  115                  It was snowing and at Marshie Hope,
19     which is the steepest grade on the Truro to Sydney run,
20     the engine's driving wheels began slipping.  The
21     quickest solution would have been to drop the coal off
22     the end of the train, complete the run to Truro with
23     the steel and paper and then return later for the coal. 
24     But left outside overnight, the coal might freeze,
25     making it infinitely harder for Nova Scotia Power to


 1     use.  So Clow and Sullivan took the extra time to drop
 2     the coal, back the steel and paper onto a siding and
 3     then reconnect with the coal cars and take them to New
 4     Glasgow, where they arranged for a shunter engine to
 5     deliver it to Trenton that very night.
 6  116                  After they had done this, the cell
 7     phone rang in the cab of their truck:  "How are you
 8     getting along in the snow", asked assistant manager
 9     Peter McCaren.  Sullivan explained what they had done. 
10     "Whose idea was that?", McCaren demanded gruffly. 
11     Sullivan glanced at Clow.  "Well, we talked it over and
12     it seemed like the best thing to do."  "Well, you're
13     right", said the manager, "and I appreciate your taking
14     the time to do it right.  It will make it a lot easier
15     for Nova Scotia Power."
16  117                  After telling me this perhaps not
17     remarkable story, Sullivan said:  "You know, if that
18     had happened under CN, we would have had to park the
19     train, call Moncton and ask someone what to do.  The
20     guy in Moncton would have told us to hang on while he
21     went down the hall to ask his boss.  His boss would
22     have called Montreal, where the person wouldn't have
23     even known where Trenton was.  And at the end of it,
24     they either would have told us to do the wrong thing,
25     or what we would have done in the first place:  it


 1     would have been left up to us."
 2  118                  Clow and Sullivan make lower wages
 3     than they did when they were unionized CN employees,
 4     but a few days after the close of each fiscal quarter a
 5     percentage of the line's pre-tax profits is distributed
 6     to each employee, according to a locally-determined
 7     formula.  The profit-sharing makes up for some, but not
 8     all, of the wage gap.
 9  119                  The result?  The customers love it. 
10     There are a hundred stories about little extra acts of
11     courtesy and consideration for customers since Railtex
12     took over the Truro to Sydney line.  Shippers get much
13     better service, so they start sending more by rail. 
14     Companies contemplating setting up in this area can
15     count on having an excellent rail service.  Sales,
16     coupled with lower costs, produce profits, so the
17     shareholders are happy.  And instead of an abandoned
18     line, we have a line that employs fewer people than it
19     did before, but it employs people.
20  120                  Perhaps most important, the workers I
21     have spoken with report a more satisfying job work
22     life, mainly because they have more control over their
23     work.
24  121                  The remarkable thing about this
25     change is that when Railtex took over the Sydney line,


 1     all but a handful of the 47 workers it hired were
 2     former unionized employees of that very line from CN. 
 3     And as its assistant manager, it hired McCaren, who was
 4     himself a former CN exec, who has since become the
 5     overall manager of this Railtex unit.
 6  122                  "How can they do it?", a CN
 7     vice-president demanded when he heard of the soaring
 8     customer satisfaction.  "How can they do a better job
 9     than we ever did, using our own manager and our own
10     workers, and only half as many of them?"
11  123                  I am here before the CRTC today to
12     propose a restructuring of the CBC far more radical
13     than the familiar recipe one hears out of Toronto:  you
14     know, the destruction of regional programming and
15     moving everything to -- surprise -- Toronto.
16  124                  What if the CBC were reorganized into
17     a multitude of completely autonomous units, in which
18     creative local programmers enjoyed a free hand to
19     develop their markets as they saw fit, with a minimum
20     of bureaucratic oversight?  Instead of a national
21     template imposed on, say, every drive-home radio show
22     in Canada, St. John's might produce an afternoon show
23     very different from Winnipeg's.
24  125                  And why not?  Winnipeg and St. John's
25     are very different places -- although you might not


 1     know it from listening to the CBC, and you certainly
 2     would not know it from listening to private radio.
 3  126                  Autonomous programming units might be
 4     geographically based -- Sydney radio, Victoria TV -- or
 5     defined by a particular program as it happens:  Vinyl
 6     Cafe.  But they could enjoy a new level of editorial
 7     and creative independence, a mandate to innovate and
 8     connect with their audiences.
 9  127                  Give creative talented Canadian
10     broadcasters this leeway and let a thousand flowers
11     bloom.
12  128                  In such an environment multi-tasking
13     would be essential, not primarily to give managers more
14     flexibility -- which is how the CBC always tries to
15     sell it -- but to give each member of the production
16     team an understanding of what every other person does
17     and how the parts fit together.
18  129                  When people spend all their time in
19     one function, they see every issue from a single
20     perspective, like Jack Stack in the great game of
21     business, and they can't appreciate other departments'
22     needs.  Walls go up, communication is terrible.
23  130                  I would like to see every CBC
24     employee spend one or two days a month doing jobs they
25     are completely unused to.  Let two staff members with


 1     sharply different roles trade jobs.  Let them see their
 2     program from different perspectives than their own.
 3  131                  Making a radically decentralized CBC
 4     work will also require a level of openness and
 5     communication that runs contrary to deeply entrenched
 6     CBC culture.  Here the CBC could usefully borrow from a
 7     movement among progressive U.S. businesses known an
 8     open book management.
 9  132                  Let's say a supper hour news show has
10     $2 million to spend in a fiscal year.  Every person in
11     the unit should know that fact, and representatives
12     from every craft in the team should have a role in
13     deciding how to allocate that budget in a transparent,
14     zero-based process that would occur annually.  Once a
15     budget is established, copies should be distributed to
16     every member of the production team, and at least once
17     a month a clear, understandable statement of
18     expenditures in the previous month and year to date
19     should be distributed to every member of the team.
20  133                  This is not the CBC way -- nor, in
21     fairness, is it the way most companies operate.  The
22     usual approach to budgets is to let front-line workers
23     know as little as possible, a practice that breeds
24     suspicion, jealousy and inefficiency.
25  134                  When money is short -- which it is --


 1     every dollar must be directed to achieving programming
 2     goals.  Every member of the team must understand her
 3     role in that process.  A manager who keeps secrets from
 4     the staff can't achieve that.
 5  135                  Open book management will also
 6     reassure staff that more than enough work exists to
 7     fill the day of everyone in the unit.  That, in turn,
 8     may lessen resistance to, and even enlist the team's
 9     help in, finding low-cost ways to put compelling
10     reports on air.  If a team sees $1,000 in meal
11     displacements show up month after month, they may start
12     agitating for better ways to spend that money on
13     production.
14  136                  The trickiest aspect of the scheme I
15     propose would be to develop benchmarks for
16     accountability.  Where a rail line can use profit as a
17     ready yardstick of performance, CBC production units
18     would need subtler measures.  Ratings, television ad
19     sales, audience surveys, peer reviews, and
20     contributions to national programs could all be part of
21     the mix.
22  137                  That is really my presentation.  I
23     did write out some answers to your questions, but I
24     think I have probably used up my time.  So I will leave
25     it at that.


 1  138                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 2     Donham.  Your proposal is an interesting one.
 3  139                  If we get through all of the
 4     presentations at a reasonable hour, such that a few of
 5     us can eat before we go to the evening session, I would
 6     be happy for those who can stay to open this up for a
 7     bit of discussion around the table on some of these
 8     issues.  I find often if we are able to do that, we can
 9     get as many good suggestions as we do out of the
10     presentations.
11  140                  I suspect your Railtex example could
12     be the basis for a good script.  It would be a good
13     storyline for a new series on television:  "The Last
14     Profitable Railway in Canada", something like that as a
15     follow-on to "Pit Pony" maybe.
16  141                  If we have time for discussion, maybe
17     we can pursue some of these issues a little later.
18  142                  Mr. Stewart.
19                                                        1345
20  143                  MR. STEWART:  Thank you.  I now
21     invite Mr. Pat Bates to make his presentation.
23  144                  MR. BATES:  Thank you very much.
24  145                  I must say it is both intimidating
25     and helpful to follow such well-articulated


 1     presentations from people who have had some prior
 2     experience in broadcasting or who are making their
 3     living in broadcasting today.  I have to plead from the
 4     point of view of a mere listener.
 5  146                  My name is Pat Bates.  I am retired. 
 6     I continue to be involved in some community projects. 
 7     My only qualification is that I am an avid listener and
 8     supporter of CBC.
 9  147                  I might also say that I like to think
10     I am a contributing member, in a modest way, to Friends
11     of Public Broadcasting in Canada and value the work
12     that that organization is trying to do.
13  148                  Mr. Chairman, I have an outline which
14     I am going to read in part and speak to in part, if
15     that is all right.  I will be respectful of the time
16     allocated for that.
17  149                  First of all, I have stated already
18     that I am a supporter of CBC, period, in the strongest
19     sense.
20  150                  Having said that, I want to make a
21     few observations that might be construed as perhaps
22     being critical; and I would like to think they are
23     constructively critical, if that is the way they are
24     perceived.
25  151                  First of all, CBC, the corporation,


 1     in my view, should enunciate clearly and frequently its
 2     philosophy and its objective in respect to both leading
 3     the way and accommodating the aspirations of Canadians
 4     for good and valued public broadcasting.  This, in my
 5     view, is not being done adequately; or to the extent
 6     that we do it, we give the appearance of apologizing
 7     for promoting or advancing the value of public
 8     broadcasting in a country such as ours.
 9  152                  I do acknowledge that there are a
10     variety of messages that do come across the airwaves
11     from time to time, and undoubtedly they are styled and
12     designed to convey the importance of the public
13     broadcasting role the CBC is playing.  But somehow the
14     corporation has to find a way to overreach government.
15  153                  Government will listen to its
16     constituents, and I think the CBC has to make a much
17     greater impression on the constituents on its power
18     base.  As somebody said recently, CBC is ours; it's not
19     the government's.  It is probably the only corporation
20     in which I will own shares as a taxpayer.
21  154                  Secondly, I want to highlight
22     something that I call the vehicle.  To put it in that
23     context is certainly not in broadcasting language by
24     which anybody understands it.  I put it this way:  It
25     is awkward to separate the network from the


 1     programming.  It is useful to examine the vastness of
 2     the network in terms of coverage and availability to
 3     service the evolving demand on a public broadcaster. 
 4     The engineering, technical and corporate structure of
 5     the vehicle has to be maintained and at the disposal of
 6     Canadians.
 7  155                  What I mean by that is that if we
 8     commence the dismembering of the infrastructure -- or
 9     if I could parlay into computer language, the hardware
10     versus the software, the software in that context being
11     programming -- it means if the budget gets so tight
12     that there has to be a closure of stations, that
13     stations in Lethbridge -- assuming that there is one
14     there -- or in Brandon or Corner Brook have to be
15     extinguished as a result of the cutbacks, then it means
16     that the vehicle is being impaired.
17  156                  Networking:  Before examining
18     programming, it might be useful to offer one's opinion
19     on what I call the inter-correctiveness or
20     inter-connectiveness of coverage.  As a listener -- and
21     I refer primarily to radio in this context -- I tend to
22     view the breadth of broadcasting span as follows.
23  157                  For example, the tendency locally --
24     and I suspect it is the same across Canada -- is to put
25     broadcasting in the context of regional versus


 1     national.  I tend to look at it, from my listening
 2     vantage point, as sub-regional.  By that, I mean
 3     sub-regional being Fredericton, Charlottetown, Halifax,
 4     St. John's, Sydney, et cetera.  Regional I tend to view
 5     as the collectivity of the above.
 6  158                  Even in the context of regional I
 7     think there is room for some improvement.  For those of
 8     us who live in the Maritimes, we talk about the
 9     Maritime Region.  If you live and work in St. John's or
10     Corner Brook, you talk about the Atlantic Region.  Too
11     seldom does the CBC -- or do others, for that matter --
12     do a reasonable job in bringing the interest of these
13     various sub-regions and regions together.  I think
14     there are yards to be made in that context.
15  159                  National is coast to coast to coast. 
16     The recent establishment of the new government in
17     Iqaluit I think is an example of how important it is
18     that we have the coverage of this type on all coasts in
19     Canada.
20  160                  International is CBC Radio
21     International.  One only need refer to the debate not
22     more than a year and a half or so ago with respect to
23     the proposed close-down of the Radio International
24     station here at Sackville.
25  161                  Programming:  This aspect of my


 1     commentary most often reflects one's individual tastes
 2     and values.  Considerable elaboration could be
 3     provided, but I will list examples, subjective as they
 4     may be, of quality broadcasting.
 5  162                  Again, as a listener, these are the
 6     things that I measure the quality of CBC by.
 7  163                  Sub-regional:  "Information Morning",
 8     "Mainstreet" here in Sydney, I think represents the
 9     type of broadcasting across the Atlantic.  Regional out
10     of Halifax, "Maritimes Magazine", "Maritime Noon"; and
11     out of St. John's, Newfoundland, the "Fisherman's
12     Broadcast".
13  164                  National, "Cross Country Check-up",
14     "As It Happens", "Ideas", and "This Morning".
15  165                  I have to say, in passing, that
16     "Ideas", in my view, is one of the best programs that
17     CBC radio features.  It probably doesn't get as much
18     promotion as it deserves, and I think Canadians not
19     taking advantage of it are being cheated or are
20     cheating themselves.
21  166                  And of course international, it is
22     the CBC's "Overseas Programming Mix".  Occasionally, we
23     will hear from Canadians who live and work in other
24     countries, and they speak eloquently of course to the
25     value and to the homesickness, if one wants to put it


 1     that way, and the desire for good programming from the
 2     homeland.
 3  167                  Looking at the broadcasting -- and
 4     again, I am talking primarily about radio -- I suppose
 5     we look at Radio One and Radio Two.  One only has so
 6     many listening hours in the day, and perhaps my
 7     listening is more sketchy than it should be.  But I
 8     definitely span the dial, and I appreciate the value on
 9     both bands.
10  168                  Programs like "Definitely Not The
11     Opera", with Eric Freisen, Bill Richardson, Marjery
12     Doyle, Catherine Duncan, all of whom bring a mix of
13     music to those who like the classical music that is
14     presented by the CBC.
15  169                  I think it is only fair to comment on
16     where private broadcasters fit in this mix.  I will put
17     it this way:  We get criticism locally for not playing
18     enough Cape Breton style music, Celtic music.  I think
19     CBC does an admirable job.  I think the folks who do
20     the programming there bend over backwards to provide
21     support.
22  170                  But somewhere in the mix of music
23     presentations there has to be some adjudication made. 
24     One of the earlier presenters talked about private
25     broadcasting in music.  I look at it that in most local


 1     private broadcast radio stations today, the diet is
 2     wall-to-wall music interspersed with six or eight
 3     30-second spots.
 4  171                  That is not being disrespectful at
 5     all.  It simply means that the alternatives in
 6     listening are quite clear.
 7  172                  Inter-connectiveness:  CBC, in my
 8     view, is the glue to the country.  The ability of
 9     Canadians to hear and exchange views on local,
10     sub-regional issues, regional issues and policy
11     concerns, national matters of all potential prospects,
12     international issues, is facilitated through our
13     national broadcast vehicle with its evolving
14     programming agenda.
15  173                  Again, speaking perhaps in parables,
16     Mr. Chairman, over the past eight or nine months since
17     we have had this economic crisis here, CBC has just
18     been magnificent, in my view, in the type of coverage
19     it has provided to the community.
20  174                  By way of example, one of the
21     journalists has done an outstanding job in comparing
22     the experience in coal mining shutdowns, revisions, and
23     so on in Wales.  We have had some of the other
24     journalists deal with some of the international
25     consultants who have come here to examine the mining


 1     situation so those of us who are lay people can
 2     understand structural problems in the Maritimes.
 3  175                  We have had Maritime United Halifax
 4     do some excellent coverage of local issues.
 5  176                  I am repeating what others have
 6     already said, but I want to put it in the context of
 7     real programming, the context of the titles of the
 8     programs that are meaningful to us.
 9  177                  I assume somebody will ring a bell if
10     I go overtime too much.  I am drawing to a close.
11  178                  In perspective, there is no
12     substitute for good quality public broadcasting.  There
13     should be an increase in funding for CBC and more
14     independence for news and public affairs management. 
15     Music, our culture, on a sub-regional and regional
16     basis, needs more promotion.
17  179                  Financing for CBC should be continued
18     to be based on parliamentary allocation.  However, an
19     advisory council on public broadcasting in Canada
20     should be created to advise government and parliament
21     on the role of public broadcasting in Canada, with
22     particular emphasis on funding.
23  180                  I don't share the hang-ups that many
24     people have in terms of CBC selling commercials to fund
25     its activities.  I say that having heard the very novel


 1     idea that was advanced by the preceding presenter.
 2  181                  With regard to TV -- and I will not
 3     take any time with that, Mr. Chairman, because I value
 4     CBC TV in the same respect as I value CBC radio.
 5  182                  I think it remains the conscience of
 6     television broadcasting in Canada, and in its absence a
 7     wasteland of television telecasting will likely
 8     surface.
 9  183                  In closing, if I could speak
10     metaphorically -- and one has to be careful these days
11     in what you say and how you say it -- If I had the
12     authority and the influence, I would declare CBC an
13     essential service.
14  184                  On that note, I thank you very much. 
15     I appreciate your time.
16  185                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  It seems a few
17     others agree with you.
18  186                  Thank you very much, Mr. Bates.
19  187                  Mr. Stewart.
20                                                        1355
21  188                  MR. STEWART:  Thank you.
22  189                  I would now ask Ms Kelly Jerrott to
23     make her presentation.
25  190                  MS JERROTT:  Thank you.  I represent


 1     the Savoy Theatre Society which owns and operates the
 2     Savoy Theatre located in Glace Bay, Nova Scotia.  I am
 3     also representing the Performing Arts Organizations of
 4     Nova Scotia.
 5  191                  Just to give you a little bit of
 6     background on those two organizations, the Savoy
 7     Theatre Society is a not for profit society, which
 8     consists of a volunteer board of directors.  Our main
 9     purpose is to provide a regional venue for the
10     promotion of cultural, educational, literary and
11     entertainment interests dedicated to the development of
12     local talent in the Cape Breton area.
13  192                  The main focus of the Performing Arts
14     Society is to serve the presenters, which are all not
15     for profit presenters across Nova Scotia.  The main
16     purpose there is to promote touring across the province
17     and to develop audiences across the province at the
18     performing arts venues.
19  193                  The CBC serves the needs of the live
20     performing arts by providing another venue for our
21     artists on the air, as well as assisting artists by
22     introducing them to the rest of the country.  One of
23     the main objectives of PASONS, the Performing Arts
24     Society, is to promote touring throughout our region
25     and to provide an opportunity for people within our


 1     region to experience a variety of forms of live
 2     performing arts.
 3  194                  Within the limited budget that CBC
 4     does have, it does a wonderful job in promoting touring
 5     for regional and national artists who may not be as
 6     well known in certain areas of the country.  Quite
 7     often, CBC assists many of the performing arts venues,
 8     whether it is interviews or just keeping us up to date
 9     within the community as to what is going on in our
10     area.
11  195                  This of course helps with the sale of
12     music for our local artists and artists right across
13     the country, as well as the sale of tickets to help
14     those artists.
15  196                  We need a national perspective that
16     CBC provides, not just in the arts but in other current
17     events and issues facing us across the country and
18     around the world.
19  197                  The CBC provides a much more hands-on
20     approach than any of the other radio stations in our
21     area.  They are willing to come out and come to the
22     venue and cover local events, whether it is on TV or
23     radio.  We have received a great deal of support from
24     CBC to assist us in promoting our local theatre, as
25     well as theatres across the province, as well promoting


 1     the local artists that appear on our stages.
 2  198                  The regional programming is essential
 3     to maintain the diversity that Canadians have become
 4     known for.  Regional programs such as our local radio
 5     programs, "Information Morning" and "Mainstreet", as
 6     well as our local TV news programs, provide a vital
 7     link in our communities connecting them with the rest
 8     of the country.
 9  199                  "The Arts Report" on First Edition,
10     as well as various other programs, such as Laurie
11     Brown's "On the Arts" and "Life and Times", provide a
12     great medium to introduce artists to Canadians and
13     provide us with a little bit more insight into their
14     lives and their passions their careers often become.
15  200                  Many of our radio stations are going
16     to the pre-recorded programming that some of the other
17     speakers have talked about.  This has very little local
18     content.  CBC is the mainstay, and it is quite often
19     the only station that involves the community in its
20     programming.
21  201                  When you tune in to some of our other
22     radio stations, it is very difficult to tell what
23     station you are listening to.  It could be from
24     anywhere at all.  Quite often it is the same music that
25     is played again and again each time you tune in.


 1  202                  CBC Radio One and Two provide what
 2     has become a unique opportunity for Canadian artists to
 3     be heard.  The Canadian content and local content
 4     played on our airwaves must be preserved.
 5  203                  Just in the last few weeks during the
 6     current labour dispute, we in the cultural industry and
 7     the music industry have noticed a real difference
 8     without the local programming in terms of the reduced
 9     opportunity to get the information on local artists and
10     what is going on:  for example, the East Coast Music
11     Awards that recently happened; the Juno Awards that
12     have been on recently.
13  204                  It results in a direct result for us
14     in terms of the sales of the artist's music and a
15     reduction in ticket sales.  It limits the community's
16     awareness as far as what is going on.
17  205                  For the millennium, some of the
18     things that our organizations have outlined that we
19     feel are vital:  CBC should continue with its regional
20     and local programming; should continue to support
21     Canadian artists and arts presenters; should continue
22     to promote live entertainment; continue to cover
23     current events; and continue to involve and include
24     real people in their programs.
25  206                  Thank you.


 1  207                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 2     much, Ms Jerrott.
 3  208                  Mr. Stewart.
 4                                                        1400
 5  209                  MR. STEWART:  I now call upon
 6     Ms Beverly Brett to make her presentation.
 7  210                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms Brett.
 9  211                  MS BRETT:  I am a freelance theatre
10     director, writer, popular theatre facilitator, drama
11     teacher, and Artistic Director of the St. Anne's Bay
12     Players.  I will speak mostly as the Artistic Director
13     of the St. Anne's Bay Players, because this is mostly
14     my own experience, although I have worked with a lot of
15     other arts organizations on the island and other
16     theatre companies.
17  212                  Also, as a board member of PARC,
18     which is Playwrights Atlantic Resource Centre, which
19     serves Atlantic Canadian playwrights.
20  213                  I will just mention a little bit
21     about the theatre company that I am involved with.
22  214                  It is a community-based theatre
23     company.  It is not a professional theatre company,
24     although over the years we have done an awful lot of
25     the same types of work that professional theatre


 1     companies have done.
 2  215                  This is important, because a lot of
 3     our work is based on community issues, doing
 4     collectives on issues such as the environment, or the
 5     fisheries.  We have been involved in historical
 6     pageants, school tours, heritage projects, plays by
 7     Cape Breton playwrights as well as Canadian
 8     playwrights.  A lot of this reflects the culture of
 9     Cape Breton.
10  216                  We have also toured to a lot of
11     different places.  I am giving you this information
12     because the CBC has always recognized this and has
13     always supported us.  It has been a valuable supporter
14     of everything we have done and a great resource. 
15     Because we don't have the money to pay for advertising
16     on the other radio stations, this has been a wonderful
17     way of getting publicity.
18  217                  What I would like to say about the
19     publicity and the exposure is that it has been done in
20     such a way that it has respected artistic integrity of
21     the group.  The questions are always intelligent. 
22     There is an awareness that there is artistic direction
23     or vision behind the production.
24  218                  During the late eighties and
25     nineties -- in early nineties, anyway -- when they used


 1     to come out -- I am not aware that they still do, but
 2     Wendy Berkfelt would come out to a rural community,
 3     make an effort to be there at a dress rehearsal to take
 4     takes of some of the play; be aware of what the play
 5     was about and be able to interview us and ask
 6     intelligent questions.
 7  219                  That is really important, because a
 8     lot of times you can be patronized.
 9  220                  Also, whatever the play was about
10     would often be put into context.  In other words, if we
11     were doing a play on fisheries, it might be put into
12     the noon show when the fishery crisis -- although it
13     has been going on for a long time, but when it peaked. 
14     It would be put into a show on the fisheries.
15  221                  When we were taking a play by a Cape
16     Breton playwright to the Fringe Festival, it would be
17     put on a show about Cape Breton playwrights, a talk
18     show inviting people to make commentary.
19  222                  Also, more commercial ventures, they
20     would also support us.  I could always get an
21     interview.  It has been very important to our continued
22     existence and expansion.
23  223                  I know this is true for probably all
24     of the rest of the theatre companies in Cape Breton,
25     whatever they are.  I like to know what else is going


 1     on in the island, and I get to hear through the CBC.
 2  224                  I am sure other people will speak
 3     about, and have spoken about, how the CBC has helped as
 4     far as the Cape Breton music scene.  I wonder where the
 5     Celtic traditional music revival would be without the
 6     CBC, without being able to listen to the music.
 7  225                  A lot of these are my own personal
 8     comments as a listener.
 9  226                  As far as television goes, I was
10     never a big watcher of television.  However, in the
11     last few years I have become much more of a watcher of
12     CBC television, because there now is local programming
13     on CBC.
14  227                  Another reason I watch is because I
15     am now seeing for the first time a lot of artists who I
16     know getting work on television through "Black
17     Harbour", "This Hour Has 22 Minutes", and "The Pit
18     Pony".  The CBC coverage of where these people have
19     come from, the grassroots theatre and performing
20     organizations where these people have come from, has
21     helped them get to where they are now in their careers,
22     getting national exposure.
23  228                  I think there should be more local
24     television programming.  I think it will help a lot of
25     writers, who are able to write now for this


 1     programming.
 2  229                  I think there is less coverage now in
 3     a way, and we suffer from that.
 4  230                  I was moving into the national side
 5     of things too, where the rest of the country is now
 6     finding out that Maritimers have a lot of stories to
 7     tell and that our humour is some of the best, because
 8     it comes from a unique perspective.  A lot of the best
 9     humour and satire comes from places that are
10     economically depressed or oppressed.
11  231                  I am also going to talk a bit about
12     where I am from.
13  232                  I am originally an American.  I grew
14     up during the anti-Vietnam days and as a result was
15     very disenchanted with America and knew that I would be
16     living in a different country in the future.  I thought
17     perhaps it would be Scotland or Ireland, but it ended
18     up being Canada and Cape Breton.
19  233                  I came originally on the bus and a
20     train to Banff to take a painting course after I got
21     out of university.  So I first learned about this
22     country through the arts, through the Group of Seven
23     and their paintings.  I continued to learn through the
24     CBC, with support of the arts.  The CBC is how I
25     learned about Canada.


 1  234                  When I came to Cape Breton, when I
 2     was living in a tent, I listened to CBC and learned
 3     about Cape Breton on all of the local and regional
 4     programming.
 5  235                  When I first came to Canada I was
 6     amazed to find out that the government would allow its
 7     national radio to criticize it, lampoon public figures. 
 8     I couldn't believe this.  I might say that I was a
 9     rather extreme anti-American and had a lot of romantic
10     notions about Canada, but I felt that you just didn't
11     see that in the U.S.  What I was protesting or against
12     was the sameness, the melting pot, the lack of feeling
13     of community.
14  236                  I was also amazed that Canada
15     supported and protected its own industry; that before
16     American corporations had moved in and taken over all
17     the cultural industries and all the other industries. 
18     Well, we can see where that is headed today.
19  237                  I was amazed also and still am -- I
20     don't know if I would say amazed -- at the high calibre
21     of discussion on the radio.  I see it as a forum for
22     all sorts of ideas which reflected the intellectual,
23     philosophical, artistic and political life of the
24     country.
25  238                  It also reflects the regional


 1     differences and sub-regional differences.
 2  239                  As a listener, I am finding out what
 3     life is like in Saskatchewan or the Northwest
 4     Territories, or anywhere in Canada.  That is what I am
 5     interested in.  I am interested in finding out about
 6     the country.  The fact that we can hear the voices from
 7     different places in the country and allow a dialogue is
 8     very important.
 9  240                  I think it is very important, with
10     all this talk about a Canadian identity -- which, to
11     me, is a lot of cliched hype to the Maritimes, because
12     I don't think people in the regions have a real problem
13     with their Canadian identity.  They do need their
14     regional identity reinforced, and a lot of this is
15     through the CBC that we can find that.
16  241                  There was also a couple of other
17     things.
18  242                  When we lost the CBC radio drama
19     there was a director to whom that position was a loss;
20     and to a lot of writers in the Maritimes.
21  243                  With the emergence now of all the
22     cultural industries, with movies, with TV, with music
23     being recognized, it is kind of working in reverse in a
24     lot of ways.  We now more than ever need more regional
25     programming and need to support our writers and


 1     artists.  I think we need more regional programming and
 2     less syndicated material, which is the way things are
 3     going.
 4  244                  That's it.  Thank you.
 5  245                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 6     Ms Brett.
 7  246                  Mr. Stewart.
 8                                                        1415
 9  247                  MR. STEWART:  Thank you.  I now would
10     invite Mr. Ernie Curry to make his presentation.
11  248                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Curry.
13  249                  MR. CURRY:  Thank you.  My
14     presentation is in the form of a critique.  I would
15     like to mention that it does not take anything away
16     from the positive aspects that were mentioned here
17     about the CBC.
18  250                  My name is Ernie Curry.  I am
19     grateful to the CRTC for the opportunity to make this
20     presentation on behalf of the Antigonish Chapter of the
21     Catholic Civil Rights League.
22  251                  The league was set up to defend and
23     promote Catholic beliefs in the public forum.  This is
24     a formidable task, because there is little sacred in
25     the media's view of the church, leaving Catholics, at


 1     leat in Canada, with a growing sense of alienation from
 2     a hostile culture.
 3  252                  Unfortunately, the publicly funded
 4     CBC has played a major role in this alienation.  In
 5     fact, we have discerned a pattern of anti-Christian and
 6     in particular anti-Catholic bias in the CBC, much more
 7     so than in the private media.
 8  253                  Catholics in my town of Antigonish
 9     became aware of this bias in 1984, when CBC decided to
10     question some of the church's teachings and chose our
11     town to do it because they considered Antigonish a
12     microcosm of Canadian Catholic culture.
13  254                  The occasion was the Pope's visit to
14     Canada.  The story was aired on "The Journal" on
15     September 6th of that year, and the purpose of the
16     exercise was explained in this lead-in:
17                            "The leader of almost half of
18                            Canada's population arrives
19                            Sunday to nationwide pomp and
20                            celebration.  His visit comes at
21                            a time when many Catholics are
22                            troubled by the rigid moral
23                            posture of the church and the
24                            unwillingness of this Pope to
25                            relent on his deeply held


 1                            conservative views."
 2  255                  To prove that allegation, Linda
 3     McIntyre, who produced and narrated the story, came to
 4     town and recruited five disaffected Catholics to appear
 5     on the show, all of whom testified to the rigid moral
 6     posture of the church and doubted that Pope John Paul
 7     would change anything.
 8  256                  McIntyre agreed and concluded that
 9     while the church leadership is at pains to point out
10     that it can do more to help people through their
11     difficulties, it is also clear in its message that the
12     church will never abolish the principles from so which
13     many conflicts arise.
14  257                  Although members of the clergy were
15     allowed to defend their position, they had no control
16     over the editing of the film, which could be altered to
17     suit the bias of the producer.  The town's Catholics
18     were shocked that the government-controlled media would
19     interfere in the internal affairs of the church in this
20     way, but there was noting that they could do about it
21     because at that time the CBC had no ombudsman.
22  258                  If the town's Catholics were shocked
23     over that incident, all of its residents, Catholic and
24     non-Catholic alike, were shocked later on when the CBC
25     deliberately and maliciously turned a success story


 1     about the town on its head.
 2  259                  This happened in 1992 when our mayor
 3     announced that the town had accumulated $5 million in
 4     reserves, mostly from its profitable electric utility,
 5     and recommended a one-year tax break for its citizens. 
 6     Because this happened at a time when most
 7     municipalities were operating in the red, this success
 8     story caught the attention of the media.
 9  260                  For example, Macleans's Magazine ran
10     a feature story about the troubled municipalities and
11     singled out Antigonish as the exception and praised the
12     town for its achievement.  CTV played the story
13     straight, giving the facts only.  But not the CBC.
14  261                  It put its own spin on the story, and
15     in this version, which was aired nationally on "News
16     Magazine" on April 14th, it implied that the town had
17     accumulated its surplus by short-changing its welfare
18     recipients.  This portrayed of Antigonishers as a mean
19     and selfish lot.  It did this by airing the complaints
20     of several welfare recipients, and at the same time
21     withholding the information about the source of the
22     surplus.
23  262                  However, there was no substance to
24     the allegations, because the complainants were not
25     residents of the town; and even if they had lived in


 1     town, there was an appeal process to deal with such
 2     complaints.  But no such complaints were made.
 3  263                  This was another case of a
 4     corporation preparing the script beforehand and
 5     selecting the cast to act it out, even though there was
 6     no evidence to support its version of events.
 7  264                  Several people complained to the CBC
 8     about its unethical, if not slanderous, handling of the
 9     story, and one in particular filed a complaint with its
10     ombudsman, William Morgan.  In his response Morgan said
11     that it was wrong for the CBC to tie in the story about
12     the alleged mistreatment of the town's welfare
13     recipients with that of its surplus, because there was
14     no connection between the two.  He also said that it
15     was wrong for the CBC to withhold the information about
16     the source of the surplus.
17  265                  However, although he informed all
18     those responsible for the story of his judgment,
19     including the vice-presidents, nothing further was
20     heard from the corporation.  It neither apologized to
21     the townspeople, nor set the record straight.
22  266                  What the CBC did to the town of
23     Antigonish was unethical and unforgivable.  But they
24     got away with it.
25  267                  The question now is:  Why did the CBC


 1     deliberately distort this news story and expose itself
 2     to possible charges of unethical behaviour and even
 3     slander?  I suspect that it was done because of the
 4     Catholic nature of the town and because the corporation
 5     knew that its ombudsman had no authority to right any
 6     wrong done to an aggrieved party.
 7  268                  In fact, the ombudsman's office is a
 8     sham and only serves as window dressing for the
 9     corporation.  This was evident to anyone who followed
10     the controversy surrounding the Valour and Horror film
11     about the Second World War.  The ombudsman, Mr. Morgan,
12     judged the film to be flawed, but this was followed by
13     more than 1,000 CBC employees, including Linda
14     McIntyre, Peter Mansbridge and Alison Smith, signing a
15     petition calling for an independent review of the
16     ombudsman's work by senior journalists no less.
17  269                  Not only that, but the CRTC itself
18     ruled in favour of the film and against the judgment of
19     the ombudsman.  So it was that the CRTC effectively
20     destroyed the Office of the Ombudsman and with it the
21     public's only advocate.
22  270                  This means that CBC produces and
23     journalists are accountable to no one and are free to
24     act out their biases whenever and however they see fit. 
25     The following examples are proof that they have indeed


 1     been granted that immunity.
 2  271                  The first example has to do with
 3     Linda McIntyre's recent grant against the Alberta
 4     Report, a weekly news publication reflecting Christian
 5     values, the publisher of which, Lynn Bifield, is a
 6     Roman Catholic.
 7  272                  The story was aired on "The Fifth
 8     Estate" on October 27, 1998, and McIntyre, making no
 9     pretense of objectivity, heaped scorn on the magazine
10     and its owners, the Bifield family, calling them hard
11     line conservative Christians, anti-gay, anti-abortion,
12     anti other things.  He said that their magazine has an
13     unapologetic appeal to prairie anxieties and red-neck
14     pride.
15  273                  In reference to their Christian
16     faith, he said that they were obsessed with the notion
17     that somewhere under the sun there was real truth,
18     absolute and unambiguous.
19  274                  To strengthen his scathing
20     denunciation of the magazine, he added the opinion of
21     like-minded journalist, Rick Salutin, who said that the
22     magazine is nasty and utterly obsessed with sex and
23     represents a kind of crazed right wing all-embracing
24     view of the world.
25  275                  The story not only trashed the


 1     magazine, but also the publishers, as well as their
 2     religious beliefs.  No one, besides the family,
 3     appeared on the program to defend the magazine.
 4  276                  Just as there was no balance in the
 5     CBC's handling of the Alberta Report story, the
 6     following example will show that the corporation
 7     intends to deal with the abortion issue in the same
 8     biased way.
 9  277                  As we all know, abortion is one of
10     the most controversial and divisive issues in the
11     country, yet the CBC has so far only allowed the
12     pro-abortion advocates to tell their side of the story. 
13     This they did with a vengeance on January 19, 1999, on
14     News Magazine, and again on February 3rd on its
15     national news program.
16  278                  Both of these stories couched the
17     pro-life advocates as the evil ones in the controversy
18     and the pro-abortion advocates as the good and
19     victimized ones.
20  279                  The CBC of course completely ignored
21     the real victims of abortion, the millions of unborn
22     babies; about 100,000 in Canada each year.
23  280                  The following example might have been
24     a suitable issue on which to produce a story showing
25     the pro-life side, but wouldn't you know, they missed


 1     the opportunity.
 2  281                  In Arizona last October a doctor was
 3     about to perform a partial birth abortion, a procedure
 4     used for late term pregnancies when the abortion
 5     procedure won't work, changed his mind and instead
 6     delivered a healthy 6-pound girl.  Even though the baby
 7     is going to be adopted, the National Abortion Rights
 8     League is planning to have the doctor charged with
 9     malpractice.  The doctor's sin is that he saved the
10     life of the baby instead of killing it, and for that
11     sin the pro-choice advocates want him punished.
12  282                  If this happened in Canada -- and it
13     could have, for all we know -- the Canadian Abortion
14     Rights League would no doubt call for the same penalty. 
15     However, except for those actively involved in the
16     abortion movement, Canadians in general know little
17     about this complex issue; and given the CBC's
18     pro-abortion bias, the corporation is not about to
19     enlighten them.
20  283                  The Catholic church is, of course,
21     one of the leading players in the pro-life movement, a
22     fact that the CBC constantly points out as it denounces
23     the movement.
24  284                  A recent incident suggests to us in
25     the League that the CBC is not only anti-Catholic but


 1     holds the church in contempt as well.  We came to that
 2     conclusion recently when we wrote to Perrin Beatty to
 3     ask him to cancel a planned CBC film that we consider
 4     sacrilegious.  He rejected our request.
 5  285                  The film is "Our Daily Bread" and is
 6     billed as a drama-comedy.  It features a young woman
 7     giving holy communion wafers to her pet dog.  Our
 8     objection is that the film ridicules the most sacred
 9     ritual in the Catholic church.  In spite of that, the
10     president's office made it clear that he has no
11     intention of cancelling the film.  We were informed
12     that it will be shown on CBC TV this fall.
13  286                  We ask the question:  Would they dare
14     produce a drama-comedy ridiculing Jewish or Moslem
15     rituals?
16  287                  It is indefensible that Canada's 13
17     million Catholics must defend themselves against the
18     bias in its own public broadcasting system, the CBC. 
19     Not only that, but the CRTC, which licenses the
20     corporation, seems to share that bias, or so it appears
21     when the Commission turned down a request from the U.S.
22     Catholic Network, EWTN, for a licence to broadcast in
23     Canada.
24  288                  EWTN is licensed to broadcast in 32
25     countries and is the largest religious TV network in


 1     the world.  Regardless, the CRTC ruled against
 2     licensing them and on the same occasion licensed the
 3     Playboy Channel.
 4  289                  The reason for rejecting EWTN was
 5     that there must be a "balance of diverse points of view
 6     on issues of public concern".  However, the CRTC seems
 7     to exempt the CBC from that policy.  We would suggest
 8     that applying this policy to a clearly defined
 9     religious network might amount to censorship, while
10     indeed it should apply to a publicly funded diverse
11     broadcaster such as the CBC.
12  290                  In closing, I would recommend that
13     the CBC should be required to demonstrate a balance of
14     diverse points of view on issues of public concern. 
15     The Office of the Ombudsman, or an alternate office,
16     not accountable to the CBC but to the public, be given
17     sufficient authority to make the broadcaster conform to
18     established standards of balance, honesty and ethics
19     that truly serve all of Canada's citizens.
20  291                  Thank you.
21  292                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
22     Curry.
23  293                  Mr. Stewart.
24                                                        1425
25  294                  MR. STEWART:  I now invite Ms Helen


 1     MacDonald to make a presentation.
 3  295                  MS MacDONALD:  Thank you.  Good
 4     afternoon, everyone.  My name is Helen MacDonald, and I
 5     am a faithful listener of CBC radio and TV.
 6  296                  I am speaking today on behalf of
 7     myself and a number of other senior citizens who could
 8     not be here but requested that I pass on their concerns
 9     to you.
10  297                  In the Sydney area we are very
11     fortunate to have the CBC program called "Information
12     Morning" with Ian MacNeil and Yvonne Lebon Smith as
13     hosts.  The seniors that I have spoken to are very
14     disturbed and disappointed to have this program, and
15     others which are so interesting and informative, not
16     available to us for weeks.
17  298                  In addition, programs coming out of
18     Halifax, such as "Maritime Noon", with Kostas
19     Salibrasos, and "Weekends", with Stan Crew, along with
20     "As it Happens" and "Cross Country Checkup", with Rex
21     Murphy, have been pre-empted and they are greatly
22     missed by all.
23  299                  I feel the programs I have mentioned
24     are of great importance to us as seniors.  Many of the
25     programs are extremely well received and thoroughly


 1     enjoyed, and I hope my presence here today as a senior
 2     and concerned citizen will be some influence with the
 3     CRTC to help them better understand our concerns, and
 4     hopefully result in these programs and others that have
 5     been lost across this country being returned to the
 6     airwaves.
 7  300                  On a personal note, I would like to
 8     make one further comment.
 9  301                  I have a brother who is in his
10     eighties, who is currently living on his own and who
11     has been inflicted with failing eyesight, who virtually
12     spends every waking moment listening to CBC radio.  It
13     has been for him, and others like him, their only
14     source of information and commentary of local and world
15     affairs.  I only wish that I could take each and every
16     one of you present to visit him and let him tell you
17     personally how sad and lonely he has become since his
18     favourite source of entertainment has been silenced.
19  302                  Thank you.
20  303                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I take
21     it, Ms MacDonald, your comments are related to the fact
22     of the current labour difficulties that CBC is having.
23  304                  MS MacDONALD:  Possibly.  But on the
24     other hand, I would like to say that we really love CBC
25     here in Cape Breton.  As you have heard the other


 1     speakers say, they are great programmings coming from
 2     CBC.  Although they have pre-empted other programs to
 3     replace those that we are missing, we still miss these
 4     programs that we have come to listen to daily and wish
 5     they would be back on the air soon.
 6  305                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 7     much.
 8  306                  MS MacDONALD:  You are welcome.
 9  307                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Stewart.
10                                                        1430
11  308                  MR. STEWART:  Thank you.
12  309                  I now invite Mr. Herman Wills to make
13     his presentation.
15  310                  MR. WILLS:  Thank you.
16  311                  Thank you, Helen.  I have many
17     friends who share the same feelings about CBC in Cape
18     Breton.
19  312                  My name is Herman Wills.  I am
20     President of Campaign Life Coalition Nova Scotia.  I am
21     a member of several pro-family organizations, in
22     addition to Campaign Life.  As an organization, we seek
23     protection of the family, the core social unit of our
24     society, and the preservation and protection of all
25     human life.


 1  313                  We recognize that the measure of any
 2     civilized society is how well it takes care of its
 3     weakest members before and after birth until a natural
 4     death.  I would like to thank the CRTC for allowing
 5     members of the public to make presentations in regard
 6     to public broadcasting in Canada.
 7  314                  It is a privilege to present to you
 8     some views and observations on the CBC, with some
 9     general recommendations.  It is my hope that my
10     presentation will embody what has been suggested by the
11     Commission.
12  315                  We believe any public broadcaster
13     should reflect the value of its shareholders, namely
14     the public, and not marginalize any one group.  The
15     public need to know the truth about family life issues
16     which we believe are marginalized and misrepresented by
17     the CBC.  Family values are rarely reflected in the
18     public broadcasting system; at worst, they are
19     ridiculed; and at best, ignored.
20  316                  The CBC as Canada's public
21     broadcaster has to excel in accuracy, dependability and
22     trust in order to be welcomed in the majority of
23     Canadian homes.  The content should not offend
24     Canadians' core values or their religious affiliations.
25  317                  The public broadcaster does an


 1     excellent job at times, especially in the area of
 2     documentaries and specialty programs, such as "Quirks
 3     and Quarks" with Bob MacDonald, "Ideas" with Listair
 4     Sinclair, documentaries such as "Sex Under Siege" and
 5     "The Dying Room" are ones that come to mind.
 6  318                  The CBC is very good at the promotion
 7     of Canadian talent, I believe, and home entertainment
 8     programs, especially at Christmas and Easter, and that
 9     type of thing.
10  319                  Other examples that do much to
11     reflect Canada are welcomed into our homes, like "Down
12     the Road Again", and local and regional programming
13     such as "Land and Sea".
14  320                  At one time I personally averaged
15     four to six hours a day listening or watching CBC.  Now
16     that is limited to special occasions.
17  321                  Before moving ahead with my
18     observations, I would like to leave you a quote by
19     Murray Guy, news editor of The Times Transcript of
20     Moncton, who, on February 22nd, summed up my
21     observation about the media and how it can contribute
22     to the public knowledge and debate.  The observation
23     should apply even more to a public broadcaster.
24  322                  The headline read "What's Implied is
25     as Important as What's Said".  The power of the pen,


 1     suggests the oft used phrase, is mightier than the
 2     sword.  Newspapers and media in general have that power
 3     of the pen.  We can through our news coverage, photos
 4     and editorial opinions contribute to the public debate
 5     and effect change by providing our readers with facts
 6     about an issue.  It is a power that has to be treated
 7     with respect.  The media has to be very careful about
 8     crossing the line between the messenger and being the
 9     message.
10  323                  The CBC has, in our opinion,
11     functioned as an agent of social change and for the
12     most part has controlled the debate and in a sense has
13     become the message.  In the areas that are important to
14     my organization and our supporters, the CBC has
15     misrepresented facts and manipulated materials in
16     recent documentaries and newscasts, which we suspect
17     underlines personal biases of those producing the
18     documentary.  Whether it holds true for other
19     documentaries is a concern.
20  324                  In a recent showing of "Thou Shall
21     Not Kill" and the shooting of Dr. Slepian, the CBC may
22     have blurred the lines between the message and the
23     messenger.  The reason we wish to refer to these
24     documentaries is that any recommendation that we will
25     have to make will have foundation in fact.


 1  325                  In the documentary "Thou Shall Not
 2     Kill", aired January 19, 1999, the CBC used a radical
 3     fringe group from the United States to attempt to
 4     depict Canadian pro-lifers in a negative light.  The
 5     clips were used from library files, edited and taken
 6     from storage not related to the subject matter.  The
 7     video clip view showed a hostile pro-abortion crowd
 8     that was present at a pro-life demonstration and then
 9     people being carried away.  The people being carried
10     away were peaceful Christian pickets who went limp as a
11     form of protest in support of an unborn child.  In the
12     rebellious noisy crowd there was a sign that read "keep
13     abortion legal".  It was just barely visible.
14  326                  It should have been pointed out that
15     these people were not pro-life.  It made it appear that
16     those being carried away were being violent or
17     disruptive.
18  327                  Another clip of a group of people
19     dressed in black were not the Army of God as implied by
20     the accompanying voice-over.  They were pro-lifers
21     dressed as grim reapers, protesting the abortion drug
22     RU486 outside the French embassy.
23  328                  With the help of footage of a radical
24     fringe group from the U.S., the CBC managed to paint
25     the Canadian pro-life movement with the same brush. 


 1     And nothing could be further from the truth.  In fact,
 2     one statement by an American radical inferred that
 3     Canadian pro-lifers are so peaceful, they are pathetic.
 4  329                  I should quickly, but of necessity,
 5     point out that there is a world of difference between
 6     being anti-abortion and being pro-life.  The former
 7     refers to a person interested in only one of the two
 8     people who enter the abortion centre, the unborn.  The
 9     latter term refers to a person who is interested in two
10     people who enter the abortion centre:  the mother and
11     the unborn child.  The difference is just not
12     semantics.  It is an important difference between two
13     ways of looking at the same situation.
14  330                  I suspect the CBC lacks any in-depth
15     knowledge of the pro-life movement in Canada after
16     viewing these documentaries, nor do they seem
17     interested.
18  331                  It seems that there is a
19     pro-choice/pro-abortion mindset which runs through the
20     media, as has been pointed out by several polls on
21     attitudes of the media that surface from time to time. 
22     The CBC should have shown the truth instead of their
23     bias.  Ironically, the program was about a "show the
24     truth" campaign put on by Canadian pro-life activists.
25  332                  Pro-life people know that violence is


 1     not the answer and that each and every human life is to
 2     be respected.  One would have to ask:  Does the media
 3     by its presentation on this issue incite violence?
 4  333                  It is obvious that the CBC was after
 5     a story that does not exist and had to make linkages. 
 6     Although it was definitely peaceful, it was depicted as
 7     being violent, which is false.
 8  334                  In an earlier newscast in October
 9     dealing with the shooting death of Dr. Bernard Slepian,
10     we see the camera focused on a crowd protesting outside
11     the Campaign Life Coalition Headquarters, and a
12     voice-over says:  "Some members of Campaign Life
13     Coalition say while their organization does not support
14     the shootings, they can understand that abortion can
15     push people to extremes."
16  335                  Then the camera switches to Jim
17     Hughes and he says:  "They have become very angry and
18     they have no place to turn.  I can see where they would
19     decide to take it out on some abortionist."
20  336                  The inference is clear: that Campaign
21     Life Coalition and Canadian pro-lifers sympathize with
22     killings.  Lost in the shuffle, deliberately or
23     otherwise, is the statement made by Mr. Hughes that
24     Campaign Life Coalition does not support violence of
25     any kind towards abortionists that was part of the


 1     original clip aired at 4 p.m. and at 5 p.m., which
 2     contained the complete statement.
 3  337                  The 6 p.m. and the 7 p.m. clips, the
 4     same day, were edited to make it appear that the
 5     Canadian pro-lifers sympathized with the killings.
 6  338                  This is certainly not so, not of any
 7     pro-life organization that we know of in Canada.
 8  339                  In contrast to these clips, nothing
 9     has ever been reported about pro-lifers under police
10     protection, nor the attacks made on pro-lifers or
11     pro-lifers who receive threats, such as Paul Neilson
12     from British Columbia, who had his house smoke-bombed.
13  340                  It would surprise you to find out
14     about the honesty and integrity of these people after
15     viewing these misrepresenting documentaries.  In order
16     for the CBC to fulfil its mandate to serve the public,
17     I believe that they would have to rewrite their style
18     book so that their programs are as fair to the pro-life
19     and pro-life people as they are presently friendly to
20     pro-choice people.
21  341                  Recommendation no. 1, which is
22     general, is that the CBC should act responsibly and
23     show the pro-life side, or the other side, of an
24     argument.  For example, they could have a documentary
25     on why Linda Gibbons is in jail for life for six-month


 1     instalments for the past five or more years, for
 2     walking up and down in front of an abortion centre
 3     silently praying with a sandwich sign on her shoulder,
 4     asking any pregnant and distressed woman entering the
 5     abortion centre if she can help them.
 6  342                  Why do these people without financial
 7     support dedicate their lives to helping others?  Why do
 8     they give up careers?  Why do they slave long hours to
 9     come to the aid of women in distress?  Why?
10  343                  This story would have done much to
11     give balance to the newscast and to illustrate the
12     differences between anti-abortion and pro-life.
13  344                  I would suggest on a controversial
14     issue that a documentary be done that illustrates the
15     other side of the question or debate.  At least balance
16     could be achieved in a more positive manner.
17  345                  As a case in point, earlier this
18     year, on the CBS network "60 Minutes" did a program on
19     the infamous Dr. Kavorkian presented at a
20     physician-assisted suicide with much public outcry.  A
21     follow-up positive story was aired two weeks ago.  I am
22     not sure if it was to counterbalance the first impact
23     or to vindicate the journalist involved.
24  346                  By airing the follow-up story, CBS
25     acknowledged that there is another side to the issue


 1     and therefore it is important to give as much attention
 2     and fervour to this side.  It may mean questioning the
 3     source and advice of researchers who work for the CBC.
 4  347                  The second recommendation:  I cannot
 5     ever remember the public broadcaster coming to our
 6     organization, Campaign Life Coalition, to do a
 7     non-hostile interview or to look deeply into why people
 8     care so much about the family and the sanctity of life.
 9  348                  Only once can I remember an interview
10     on "Morningside" with Peter Gzowski and two pro-life
11     people that was not hostile or demeaning.  A mechanism
12     must be found to keep the public broadcaster just that: 
13     a public broadcaster with a mandate for fairness,
14     accuracy, trust and a service to most, if not all,
15     Canadians of Canada into the millennium.
16  349                  The public deserves a level playing
17     field, for television as one of the most powerful and
18     agenda-setting mediums that exist today.  It is how
19     most people receive their information to form opinions.
20  350                  Here is the quote:  "Democracy is
21     preserved and protected by a free press but is ill
22     served by a manipulative and bias media uncontrolled
23     and uncontrollable", as stated by Tom Lapelle, an
24     Ontario MP.
25  351                  The CBC should have its mandate


 1     extended if they can be more open to serving all public
 2     groups and shareholders and not just those whom they
 3     seem to support.  If they are unable to be fair, then
 4     the CRTC should mandate conditions for licensing that
 5     promotes fair treatment of controversial and social
 6     issues.  The CRTC should also consider a shorter
 7     licence period, so its reviews will be more often.
 8  352                  I thank you for allowing me to
 9     present my views to you today.
10  353                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
11     much, Mr. Wills.
12  354                  Mr. Stewart.
13                                                        1440
14  355                  MR. STEWART:  I now call upon Ms Ann
15     Verrill to make her presentation.
17  356                  MS VERRILL:  My name is Ann Verrill. 
18     I am the owner of Flashfire Productions, which is an
19     independent film and video production company in
20     Halifax.  I also am the producer of a program called
21     "Shortworks".
22  357                  I am here partially on my own behalf
23     but also to represent some of the organizations which
24     are now housed in the radio building of the CBC in
25     Halifax.  They are the Atlantic Film Makers


 1     Cooperative, the Atlantic Film Festival, the Centre for
 2     Art Tapes, Linda Joy Media Arts Society, Moving Images
 3     Group, and the Shortworks Program.
 4  358                  There is a new partnership which has
 5     developed over the last few years with CBC Maritimes
 6     and the cultural community in Halifax.  The six
 7     organizations which are now housed there are all
 8     working together within the facility and working with
 9     the CBC.
10  359                  The Film Coop has been around for 25
11     years.  It has production facilities, membership,
12     workshops and scholarships, and has about 800 people
13     that use its facilities.
14  360                  The Film Festival has been in the
15     building for four years.  The Centre for Art Tapes also
16     has membership production facilities, workshops and
17     scholarships.  The number of people that they interact
18     with is also about 800.
19  361                  The Linda Joy Media Arts Society
20     gives out awards to emerging film and video producers
21     and directors from the Atlantic Provinces, and they are
22     now in the process of setting up a resource centre.
23  362                  The Moving Images Group began about
24     two and a half years ago, and they do a professional
25     development program for film and television.  They have


 1     had about 700 people who have taken part in their
 2     workshops.
 3  363                  Shortworks is a four-month long
 4     training program for film and video production, and we
 5     have had about 300 people go through our program.
 6  364                  The significance of all this is that
 7     all of those people are coming into the CBC building on
 8     Sackville Street in Halifax, which marks a significant
 9     change in the relationship that the CBC has with the
10     community there.
11  365                  I would like to talk a little bit
12     about the Shortworks program.  It is a unique kind of
13     partnership which has evolved from the Centre for Art
14     Tapes, the Atlantic Film Makers Cooperative, Flashfire
15     Productions, which is a private company, and the CBC
16     Maritimes.
17  366                  The program is linked to the
18     production of four or five-minute films and videos
19     produced through the Film Coop and the Centre for Art
20     Tapes.  It provides workshops in various aspects of
21     production and a professional development stream for
22     the writers, directors and producers of the five-minute
23     pieces.  It also provides on-set training for the
24     workshop participants.
25  367                  The thing that is so important about


 1     this program is that it brings together a broadcaster
 2     and emerging talent in a low risk, low pressure
 3     situation.  The results have been quite impressive.
 4  368                  The CBC is directly involved in the
 5     training of the people that go through the program, and
 6     they have also purchased for broadcast some of the
 7     pieces that have been made through the program.
 8  369                  The objective of the program is to
 9     allow both parties to learn from each other.
10  370                  In this region there has been a
11     long-standing issue of how to develop our own talent
12     and to keep it here, and how to train our own community
13     and workforce for the growing film and video and
14     television industry.
15  371                  In the absence of a film school,
16     grassroots organizations have taken on the
17     responsibility of developing their particular part of
18     the community.
19  372                  There has also been a movement within
20     the community to join forces to address the lack of
21     training available here.  This community, which
22     consists of the unions and guilds, IATSE and ACTRA, the
23     DGC, the Independent Film Caucus, the Writers Guild,
24     the Writers Federation, the Centre for Art Tapes and
25     the Atlantic Film Makers Cooperative, have all been


 1     meeting for several years now to try to address what
 2     can be done to facilitate training.
 3  373                  They formed the Moving Images Group
 4     which now puts on a professional development program.
 5  374                  Two years ago the group was formed
 6     and the program was about to be launched, but there was
 7     nowhere to hold it.  It was at that time that the link
 8     was made with the CBC.
 9  375                  I was the director of the program at
10     the time and actually initially approached the CBC to
11     get some manuals for a sound workshop.  When they heard
12     about the program, they actually approached us about
13     wanting to be more involved and offered us space in the
14     building, as well as other kinds of support.
15  376                  At this point in time began the
16     process of bringing in the independent film and video
17     community into the building.  A year later Flashfire
18     Productions and the Coop and the Centre and the CBC
19     began the Shortworks program.
20  377                  In the fall, the Atlantic Film Makers
21     Coop moved into the building, and in January the Centre
22     for Art Tapes moved in.
23  378                  The Linda Joy Media Arts Society was
24     also given office space and a location to hold a
25     resource centre.


 1  379                  In the month that we all spent
 2     together in the building, we realized that we were
 3     standing on the threshold of great possibilities.  We
 4     had been working separately and could feel the
 5     isolation, defensiveness and competitiveness that comes
 6     from working that way.  We were unaware of the issues
 7     and struggles that the others were experiencing.  Now,
 8     together, we are breaking down the barriers and are
 9     finding new ways to collaborate.
10  380                  We are focusing our energy on
11     building a stronger support system for our entire
12     community.  The thing that has pulled us all together
13     has been the CBC, and they are partners with us in
14     building a cultural fabric.
15  381                  In order for this to happen, it took
16     people with the resources having a vision and a way to
17     connect with us.
18  382                  This experience of our community can
19     be seen as an analogy to the CBC as a whole.  Each
20     organization is like the regions; each allowed to
21     develop and connect with its members in the ways which
22     make sense for that community.  Organizations and
23     regions are brought together in a framework which
24     enables them to reach their potential and therefore
25     strengthen the centre, the CBC.


 1  383                  If you think of the image of a tree
 2     and that we are all the nutrients in a sense, and the
 3     regions are the roots which feed the centre, and the
 4     tree becomes stronger and grows taller and the branches
 5     spread out further across the country, I think this is
 6     the thing that works in nature and it is the thing that
 7     will strengthen the CBC as well.
 8  384                  The one sure way to kill the tree is
 9     to sever it from its roots.
10  385                  The other thing I would like to
11     address is the issue of private versus public.
12  386                  On CBC radio a little while ago
13     someone had called in on the "Talkback Line" in
14     response to the strike, and they basically were saying
15     that they should leave it to the private sector because
16     they are doing such a good job.
17  387                  I have a belief that creativity is
18     the foundation on which the television and film
19     industry is built, and that in this ever changing world
20     where market forces are driving the industry, it is
21     even more important for strong, creative and
22     imaginative people to be involved to ensure that the
23     substance and content are not diminished.
24  388                  As an example, I worked for a long
25     time with the Centre for Art Tapes, which is a


 1     non-profit media organization.  We often had complaints
 2     from the commercial industry about unfair competition.
 3  389                  The mandate of the Centre for Art
 4     Tapes is to enable individuals to develop their
 5     creative potential without restrictions and to
 6     strengthen the artistic vision of the individual.  Many
 7     of the people who worked out of the Centre for Art
 8     Tapes, as well as the Film Makers Coop, have gone on to
 9     work in and for the private industry.  They have
10     created new programs to address the needs of the
11     industry, and they provide the talent which feeds both
12     private and public broadcasters.
13  390                  The grassroots artistic community
14     also helps to inspire the creative people working in
15     the private broadcasting.
16  391                  If places like the Centre for Art
17     Tapes and the Atlantic Film Makers Coop did not exist,
18     which means that they would not be getting federal
19     funding, the work that gets made there would not just
20     move to the commercial facilities; it would not be
21     made.
22  392                  The expense and the structure of
23     working in commercial facilities is detrimental to the
24     creative process, since it is driven by immediate
25     economic needs.  The CBC should, and does in part, play


 1     a similar role.  It definitely plays this kind of role
 2     here.  It enables work to be done which may not be made
 3     otherwise.  It provides opportunities for the
 4     development of a pool of talent which feeds not only
 5     the CBC, but the film industry and private
 6     broadcasters.
 7  393                  Private broadcasters need the CBC,
 8     because CBC can provide what is needed for the entire
 9     community and industry to grow.
10  394                  The CBC also sets a standard, which
11     is based on higher ideals than economics.
12  395                  Just as a personal experience, I am
13     presently working on a short film, which is my own
14     project and has Canada Council funding.  Therefore,
15     creative control is of prime importance, not just
16     because of the funding requirements but also for
17     myself.
18  396                  One of the things that is happening
19     now is that in order for a director to become approved
20     to go on, they have to direct what is called a TV half
21     hour.  There are several projects that have been done
22     this way with other broadcasters, where there is an
23     awful lot of money.  Again, it is not just the
24     broadcaster's money, but it is also other government
25     sources of funding that make these things possible.


 1  397                  A lot of pressure is put on to
 2     emerging directors to work in the TV model with the
 3     broadcaster having enormous control over the process. 
 4     As a result, often the pieces that are created are not
 5     very strong, and the experience of the individuals
 6     involved is not very positive.
 7  398                  For myself, I knew that I was not
 8     going to make a piece that way.  I had no interest in
 9     interacting with the broadcaster in that way, and I
10     also did not want to give up any creative control on my
11     project.  It never occurred to me that there would ever
12     be a broadcaster that would even consider my project
13     until my experience with CBC Maritimes.
14  399                  It is through their support that I am
15     now able to make that piece.  That is an example of a
16     piece that definitely would not be produced if it was
17     not for the CBC; and it is also not a piece that would
18     have been taken up by one of the other broadcasters.
19  400                  The other thing that the CBC does is
20     it gives out an award through the Linda Joy Media Arts
21     Society for script development.  The importance of that
22     kind of support allows the emerging writer to develop
23     an association with the broadcaster but not be
24     dominated by it.  The objective is to develop the
25     writer and develop the script to its potential first


 1     before inflicting the broadcast system on it.
 2  401                  MR. STEWART:  Excuse me, Ms Verrill,
 3     you have used 13 minutes of the ten minutes allotted.
 4  402                  MS VERRILL:  Do you want me to stop?
 5  403                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Could you summarize
 6     the rest of your position in about 30 seconds or so?
 7  404                  MS VERRILL:  Yes, I can.
 8  405                  The last thing that I wanted to say
 9     is that the directions of CBC Maritimes show long-term
10     vision.  It recognizes the importance of developing
11     regional talent in the region as a way to strengthen a
12     strong national CBC.  Its roots have spread into our
13     cultural community, providing a stronger foundation,
14     and it has done what the Broadcast Act asks of all
15     broadcasters, which is to safeguard, strengthen and
16     enrich the cultural, political, social and economic
17     fabric of Canada.
18  406                  CBC Maritimes has done this in a way
19     that only they can.
20  407                  That's all.
21  408                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
22     much.
23  409                  It occurs to me that with continued
24     budget cuts, you could end up with lots of office space
25     but no place to air your productions.


 1  410                  Mr. Stewart.
 2                                                        1455
 3  411                  MR. STEWART:  Thank you.  I now call
 4     upon Mr. Douglas Arthur Brown to make his presentation.
 6  412                  MR. BROWN:  Thank you.  I am going to
 7     be reading two short presentations.  The first is on
 8     behalf of Arts Cape Breton in my capacity as its
 9     Executive Director; and the second will be on behalf of
10     the Nova Scotia Arts Council in my capacity as its Vice
11     Chair.
12  413                  First, Arts Cape Breton.
13  414                  In a span of little more than three
14     weeks, mid February to the beginning of March, Cape
15     Breton arts, entertainment and culture commanded the
16     CBC airwaves.  From the exciting debut of Cochrane
17     Entertainment's "The Pit Pony" to the "East Coast Music
18     Awards" -- Cape Breton artists winning the lion's share
19     of them -- to the comic antics of "The Bette Macdonald
20     Show", it was an exciting sweep.
21  415                  All three of these quality
22     productions displayed the artistic capabilities of Cape
23     Breton Island in enriching and enlightening hues and
24     rythyms.  How refreshing to see blue skies and sunlit
25     sets light up "The Pit Pony" across Canada rather than


 1     the all too often acid rain in which too much of the
 2     Canadian media prefers to drench its coverage of Cape
 3     Breton.
 4  416                  Thank you, CBC, for that.
 5  417                  In the brief accompanying suggestions
 6     on these public consultations, there were several
 7     suggested questions to spark discussion.  One of these
 8     questions was worded as follows:
 9                            "Should the programming provided
10                            by CBC radio and television be
11                            different from that provided by
12                            other broadcasters?"
13  418                  If there was ever a leading question,
14     this was it.
15  419                  When one looks or listens to the
16     majority of private television programming broadcast in
17     this country, it is painfully difficult to find
18     anything different.  Although it is not the role of CBC
19     television to compete with private broadcasters, it
20     should be different.  For starters, more Canadian
21     content.
22  420                  While living in Scandinavia for ten
23     years, I had the pleasure of regularly viewing fine CBC
24     television programs and films bought and broadcast by
25     Scandinavian networks.  Clearly the export of Canadian


 1     television programming is a viable market.
 2  421                  Providing more quality Canadian
 3     programming on CBC television not only opens up more
 4     opportunities for Canadian writers, actors, producers
 5     and others in the industry, but allows for increased
 6     export possibilities.
 7  422                  So the short answer would be yes, CBC
 8     should be different because that in itself is a
 9     departure from the largely mundane programming
10     available to viewers and listeners in the 500 channel
11     universe.
12  423                  Do we really need another station
13     broadcasting "I Dream of Jeannie" or a radio station
14     playing more oldies?  No.
15  424                  Much of what I have said refers to
16     national CBC television coverage of Cape Breton arts
17     and culture.  On a regional level, specifically on CBC
18     radio, Cape Bretoners are fortunate, in these times of
19     diminishing Canadian content, to not only hear what is
20     happening in the arts on Cape Breton but to experience
21     it as well.
22  425                  CBC "Mainstreet" in Cape Breton has a
23     fine tradition of broadcasting Cape Breton book and CD
24     launches, which make you want to jump everything and
25     jump in the car and head to the event.  The impact of


 1     these live coverages is substantial.  For weeks and
 2     months after they are aired you will run into people
 3     who will stop you on the street and say:  "I heard you
 4     on CBC."  They don't say "on the radio"; it is always
 5     "on the CBC".
 6  426                  Programming like "Information
 7     Morning", "Island Echoes" and "Mainstreet" are vital to
 8     a region like Cape Breton, an island comprised of many
 9     rural communities and cultures -- a community of
10     communities that has traditionally turned to its local
11     radio for linkage.  This is a role and responsibility
12     for CBC radio.
13  427                  CBC does not play favourites.  They
14     are most accommodating and broad in their coverage of
15     arts, entertainment and culture.  From the emerging to
16     the established, there is a place for all Cape Breton
17     artists on the CBC.
18  428                  As important, there is also room for
19     a response from the consumers of Cape Breton arts,
20     entertainment and culture.  Most CBC radio programming
21     asks a vital question of its listeners:  "What do you
22     think?"
23  429                  That is not to say that there is not
24     room for improvement.  Cutbacks to CBC staffing locally
25     has increased the workloads of local broadcasters and


 1     producers to the breaking point.  Why this abuse of a
 2     dedicated staff who gives 100 per cent and then some,
 3     burdening them with additional responsibilities that
 4     are unfair and unreasonable?  To slaughter the prize
 5     egg-laying hen for her meat is short sighted.
 6  430                  Why is this irony lost to the brass
 7     of CBC?
 8  431                  On programming that originates
 9     locally, we want to hear about and respond to our local
10     arts and culture.  Is there room for more coverage of
11     arts and culture in Cape Breton?  Without a doubt.
12  432                  Lately, the cultural sector in Nova
13     Scotia has out-paced all other segments of the
14     provincial economy.  The key to this discussion is
15     listening.  CBC should always strive to provide
16     programming that entices the viewer or listener to do
17     just that:  listen.
18  433                  And yes, more Canadian programming. 
19     I have already stated that CBC partners well with its
20     local communities here on Cape Breton.  There is still
21     room for more opportunity for joint ventures between
22     local artists, arts organizations and the CBC -- joint
23     venturing that should happen here on the island.
24  434                  Corporate CBC must not dictate a
25     formula programming to its constituents.  It must


 1     receive its inspiration for quality and intriguing
 2     programming from where it happens:  locally.
 3  435                  It, too, must listen.
 4  436                  In closing, regarding television:
 5     more Canadian content; and regional programming with an
 6     original voice, like "This Hour Has 22
 7     Minutes" --regionally distinctive while appealing to a
 8     national Canadian audience.
 9  437                  As to radio, a commitment to maintain
10     excellent local programs like "Mainstreet" and
11     "Information Morning" produced and broadcast in Cape
12     Breton.
13  438                  That is from Arts Cape Breton.
14  439                  The other presentation -- and I will
15     keep it brief -- is from the Nova Scotia Arts Council.
16  440                  The Nova Scotia Arts Council is
17     making this presentation because of the vital role that
18     the CBC plays in the presentation of Nova Scotia
19     artists to other Nova Scotians and other Canadians.
20     Writers, musicians, actors and now visual craft and
21     performance artists are all benefiting from their
22     relationship with the regional CBC.
23  441                  This is not just about jobs and fees. 
24     This is about the CBC Maritimes' ability and desire to
25     find and promote emerging and developing Nova Scotian


 1     and Maritime Region artists.
 2  442                  We are fortunate to have two
 3     exceptional regional directors of radio and television
 4     in Susan Mitton and Fred Mattocks, respectively.  They
 5     understand that artists' work frequently reflect the
 6     community they live in and that by presenting these
 7     artists in the best possible light, the CBC is fuelling
 8     and strengthening everyone's sense of community.
 9  443                  CBC radio has frequently been the
10     first recorder of many Nova Scotian musicians, giving
11     them their first professional rate studio experience,
12     and in some cases resulting in their first CDs.
13  444                  Studio H in Halifax has fostered the
14     careers of such artists as Rita MacNeil, Laura Smith
15     and the Rankins.
16  445                  CBC TV has found a way to bring the
17     work and the faces of Atlantic Region visual, craft and
18     performance artists into thousands of homes with its
19     innovative art spots; 30-second spots that are
20     broadcast in unsold commercial time.
21  446                  When downsizing created open office
22     space in the CBC radio building on Sackville Street in
23     Halifax, Susan Mitton offered virtually free space to a
24     number of not for profit arts organizations, such as
25     the Centre for Art Tapes, the Atlantic Film Coop, St.


 1     Cecil Concert Series and the Atlantic Film Festival,
 2     making something good out of something bad.
 3  447                  These are just some examples of the
 4     creative impact that the CBC makes here.
 5  448                  It is easy to forget when you live in
 6     urban centres such as Toronto, or Vancouver, or even
 7     Ottawa, what the CBC can mean to parts of Canada such
 8     as the Atlantic Region, where CBC radio can lead in the
 9     ratings.  It leads because it is strongly connected to
10     the community.  It helps foster community identity with
11     its information programming and its presentation of
12     indigenous music and drama.
13  449                  It is probably apparent to the CRTC
14     that there is much support for CBC radio across the
15     country and particularly outside of urban centres. 
16     What is of note in the Atlantic Region is the
17     considerable effort made by CBC television to establish
18     a similar rapport with the community.
19  450                  Under Fred Mattocks' leadership CBHT
20     Halifax was selected by the prestigious Gabriel Awards
21     as the station of the year for a body of programming
22     reflective of its community.  The arts community's
23     experience with art spots is the latest example of TV
24     and the arts partnering to everyone's advantage.
25  451                  This is a strong message of support


 1     for the CBC, but in particular for our regional CBC,
 2     which we believe truly meets the CBC mandate and stands
 3     as a model for the network.
 4  452                  Thank you.
 5  453                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 6     Brown.
 7                                                        1500
 8  454                  MR. STEWART:  I will now call on Mr.
 9     Rene Halden to make his presentation.
10  455                  Is Mr. Halden in the room?  There was
11     some suggestion that he might not be able to make it.
12  456                  Then, Mr. Frank Gaudet.
14  457                  MR. GAUDET:  I am going to basically
15     pass rather than expound on what the other presenters
16     here have so eloquently presented, and which I am
17     mostly in agreement with.
18  458                  I have a few questions anyway.  I
19     don't know whether it is the time to bring them up or
20     not.  Or I will bring them up later.
21  459                  I will pass on my presentation.  It
22     has basically been covered, especially by Mr. Bates and
23     Ms Cusack and Frank Corbett before me.
24  460                  Thank you very much.
25                                                        1505


 1  461                  MR. STEWART:  Thank you.
 2  462                  I will now call upon Mr. Van der
 3     Putten to make his presentation.
 4  463                  Is it Ms Van der Putten?  Is that
 5     person in the room?  I apologize if I have
 6     mispronounced the name.
 7  464                  Then, Mr. Ray MacKay, if he would
 8     like to make his presentation now.
10  465                  MR. MacKAY:  Mr. Bates mentioned
11     being intimidated when he followed Parker Donham. 
12     Imagine how intimidated I am, with all these learned
13     people around the table.  This is beyond my nap period,
14     too.  I usually have a nap about this time of the day.
15  466                  I had my notes together in the
16     computer this morning around 11:30, and I proceeded to
17     get them on to the printer.  The first page printed out
18     well; the second page printed out garbage.  I couldn't
19     make out a thing on it.  So I closed the whole system
20     down, brought it back to life again, and sure enough it
21     worked.  So I wasn't in a panic for too long.
22  467                  There has been a lot said and written
23     in the last few days and weeks about the CBC, so I
24     don't wish to belabour points already brought up. 
25     Local programming is a must if we are to satisfy the


 1     needs of the Cape Breton population and also have an
 2     input to the region and nation.
 3  468                  I wold like to dwell on the radio
 4     aspects of broadcasting, if I may.
 5  469                  During World War Two, when I served
 6     with the Royal Canadian Navy, it was comforting to hear
 7     the voice of the Maritimes and know that all was well
 8     on the home front when we experienced some pretty rough
 9     times at sea.  We had two networks to service in those
10     days, the Dominion Network, which was operated by CJCB,
11     and the Trans-Canada Network.  Then Halifax CBH came on
12     stream, followed by CBI here in Cape Breton in 1949. 
13     That was the icing on the cake.
14  470                  For 50 years, the CBC has made its
15     presence felt here in Cape Breton.
16  471                  I would like to relate to you a
17     little incident after the war.  I had signed on a deep
18     sea vessel operating out of Battery Place, New York, as
19     a radio operator/purser.  We were taking general cargo
20     from Baltimore to Ireland.  While sitting off the coast
21     of Nova Scotia, the second engineer, who was a
22     Scotsman, was passing the time of day with me in the
23     radio room.  I had turned on CBA Maritimes, which had a
24     strong signal, and we heard the skirling of the pipes. 
25     "I didna think I was so close to Scotland", he says.  I


 1     said:  "You're not.  We are off the coast of Nova
 2     Scotia."
 3  472                  This was the opening of the Gallic
 4     Mod at St. Anne's, Cape Breton.
 5  473                  Why I relate this tale is just to
 6     point out one instance of the presence of CBC in an
 7     area that normally would not be heard from; one of the
 8     very good reasons the CBC should remain an influence in
 9     promoting our culture.
10  474                  Speaking of ships, there are some 30
11     world-class passenger liners coming into Sydney area
12     each year.  By and large, the passengers listen to the
13     CBC.  What a tremendous audience.  What an opportunity
14     to promote our distinctive culture.
15  475                  Those driving in their cars to and
16     from work, cab drivers are listeners to CBC.  The
17     alternative listening is so crowded with commercial
18     content back to back that their jangled nerves can't
19     take it any more.
20  476                  And another thing:  Where are the
21     Cape Breton artists getting air time?  Not on the
22     commercial outlets, especially if they are not on the
23     charts.
24  477                  I joined the CBC as a radio
25     technician in June 1950 and had remained with the


 1     corporation in various capacities until my retirement
 2     in 1983.  So I can speak from first-hand experience of
 3     some of the things that I feel should be maintained or
 4     have been lost and should be brought back.
 5  478                  I realize that my time is limited to
 6     ten minutes.
 7  479                  I feel that if the CBC does not do
 8     it, in many instances it will not be done.
 9  480                  I feel very strongly that CBC locally
10     should get back into producing quality programs.  We
11     have in the past and we could do so again.  Many
12     musical artists got their start here and have gone to
13     bigger and better things.
14  481                  CBC should be promoting local talent,
15     and they do actually promote local talent.  If this is
16     left to the private sector, I am very much afraid that
17     it will not be done.  It costs a lot of money to
18     produce a tape or a CD these days, and many would-be
19     artists just do not have the means.
20  482                  Some of the talented people who went
21     through CBI Sydney:  Anna Lee Silver, Martha McVicker,
22     Marjorie Coombs McGibbon Ball, Winnie Chathe, John Alan
23     Cameron, Lydia Adams, Stuart Calvert, James Macdonald,
24     just to name a few.
25  483                  I am going back to the old days.  A


 1     lot newer talent has come through since I worked there. 
 2     I have been retired for 16 years.
 3  484                  A large number of these musical
 4     groups were produced and promoted by Brian Sutcliffe. 
 5     Dave Ross in earlier times was instrumental in
 6     producing Mendelsohns oratorio Elija for the CBC,
 7     originating from Sydney.  We had a weekly program
 8     entitled "CBI Presents", highlighting talent from the
 9     local area.
10  485                  Way back in early fifties, before the
11     days of tape recording, everything had to be live to
12     air.  Barry MacDonald, our local station manager,
13     produced a program entitled "The Breton Singers", which
14     went directly to the network.  That was produced by
15     Ewen Clark.  This was done on a weekly basis, no mean
16     feat to pull off for a small station of 11 personnel
17     total.  And that wasn't just technical people; that was
18     all, the office as well as announcers and technical.
19  486                  We also covered the Royal visit in
20     1951.  This was broadcast live coast to coast, and more
21     recently we did a New Year's Eve celebration from one
22     of the hotels coast to coast.
23  487                  You are probably thinking that is
24     ancient history.  That is true, but I believe we have
25     to know where we are coming from so that we may plan


 1     ahead in a constructive way.
 2  488                  I strongly believe that programs
 3     which were produced at CBC locally, such as "Hospital
 4     Party", "High News", "Choral Groups", "Island Echoes",
 5     weekly church broadcasts, and the like, would not have
 6     been touched by the private broadcaster, because it was
 7     not profitable for them to do so.
 8  489                  The hour-long program "Island
 9     Echoes", which has a very strong Cape Breton Scottish
10     flavour, has been broadcast weekly for some 30 years,
11     and continues to be broadcast to this time.
12  490                  We are all aware that the CBC is in
13     dire financial straits.  Why?  Well, one of the more
14     obvious reasons is the severe cut in government
15     funding, to the tune of $425 million.
16  491                  I understand from an item by Chris
17     Cobb, correspondent with Southam News, that the
18     President of the CBC, Perrin Beatty, is going after the
19     government for an estimated amount of $100 million to
20     pay for digital TV and radio equipment updating in
21     order to improve the transmission of programs.
22  492                  You know, there could be no end to
23     this updating business.  Technology, especially digital
24     technology, is a constantly changing thing.  Should CBC
25     get their hands on this kind of money, I personally


 1     think it could be put to better use by spreading it
 2     around to the regions and allowing for greater program
 3     input.
 4  493                  I would like to make one more point,
 5     if I may.
 6  494                  So many of us are addicted to the
 7     tube that we sometimes forget all the good programs
 8     that are available on CBC radio.  Could it be possible
 9     that a TV channel be made available nationally and
10     audio transmission?  If this was practical, could a
11     program guide be coming on upcoming programs, together
12     with description of same be made available?
13  495                  That is like CJCB has on our local
14     Channel 10, with the program audio content there and
15     maybe a read-out and all these programs that are on the
16     CBC FM and radio -- if they could be included there
17     from time to time so that people who are -- as some of
18     us are -- addicted to the boob tube --
19  496                  It is much easier to switch over to
20     an existing channel or going to the radio or forgetting
21     all about the radio.
22  497                  I am rambling on, but before I finish
23     I want to make a heartfelt plea for our existing two
24     daily local programs, "Information Morning" and the
25     afternoon show "Mainstreet".  These are two programs


 1     that we just cannot get along without.  They are
 2     tremendously popular and informative.
 3  498                  "Information Morning", hosted by Ian
 4     MacNeil, keeping us up to date on what is going on in
 5     the community.  Ian also has contributors from all over
 6     Cape Breton Island on a regular basis.  The program
 7     also provides us with an outlet to phone in our
 8     complaints or comments and observations.
 9  499                  Finally, I would like to thank the
10     Commissioners for their time and consideration.  It is
11     hoped that these hearings will result in something very
12     positive and that the CBC will continue to be the
13     cohesive force binding us together as Canadians from
14     sea to shining sea.
15  500                  Thank you.
16  501                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
17     MacKay.  You don't have to take a back seat to anybody
18     in terms of your eloquent support of the CBC.
19  502                  Mr. Stewart.
20                                                        1515
21  503                  MR. STEWART:  Thank you.
22  504                  I now invite Mr. Phil MacDonald to
23     make his presentation.
25  505                  MR. MacDONALD:  Thank you, you Mr.


 1     Chair.  I would like to say hello to you and your
 2     colleague and welcome yourself and your staff here, and
 3     to thank you for coming to Cape Breton Island and to
 4     Sydney.
 5  506                  My name is Phil MacDonald.  I am the
 6     Director of the Strait-Highlands Regional Development
 7     Agency.  We are a community economic development group
 8     that services the municipalities of the counties of
 9     Inverness, Richmond, Victoria and the town of Port
10     Hawkesbury.  I think this area could commonly be
11     referred to as "rural Cape Breton" -- not exclusively
12     all of rural Cape Breton; but I will get into that in a
13     little bit.
14  507                  I am basically here with one message: 
15     that CBC radio is a critical component to community
16     development in rural Cape Breton.  I can't put it any
17     more eloquently than a number of people did around this
18     table in terms of the importance to them as individuals
19     and to their organizations, and I believe to their
20     communities as well.  This would be in a social,
21     cultural and economic sense.
22  508                  My request to the CRTC today is that
23     the CBC Sydney radio station signal be broadcast around
24     the island completely.
25  509                  For instance, this morning I left my


 1     office -- it is located almost 100 miles from here.  In
 2     the particular situation we are in now, we are all
 3     listening to Halifax stations.  Normally, I would not
 4     pick up the Sydney signal until about 30 or 40 miles
 5     from Sydney.
 6  510                  I would like to go into a bit of
 7     description.  Rural Cape Breton is about three-quarters
 8     or more of the island.  It probably has a population of
 9     about 60,000, which is approximately a little less than
10     one-third of the island's population of 162,000.  There
11     are many communities in that area.
12  511                  Inverness County is going through a
13     strategic planning process right now, and they have
14     identified 16 communities alone; separate, distinct
15     areas of interest, if you want to call it.  It is
16     largely dependent, as many rural communities are, on
17     natural resource-based economy, on farming, fishing,
18     forestry and mining.  We have significant tourism
19     attractions and infrastructure, as I am sure you are
20     aware, although the industry is still seasonal.  We
21     have extensive and historical and cultural ties with
22     our Mi'Kmaw, our Acadian and our Scottish heritage.
23  512                  The Strait area has an industrial
24     base and an excellent port.
25  513                  We have a lot of opportunities.  Many


 1     of the residents in many of our communities are working
 2     through CED, Community Economic Development initiatives
 3     to improve their communities; but there are still a lot
 4     of challenges.
 5  514                  The area has a lot of potential, as
 6     we maintain, but it is still a largely seasonal economy
 7     with high levels of unemployment.
 8  515                  My remarks are going to be brief, and
 9     they apply mostly to CBC radio.  But I think in some
10     respects CBC nationally has a similar mandate of going
11     into the homes of Canadians to tell them the story of
12     other Canadians.  And I think that is important.
13  516                  As you can tell, I am a fan of CBC
14     radio.  I often listen to its programs, especially the
15     morning and afternoon programs.  I am on road a lot, so
16     I do get the opportunity to listen to CBC Sydney.  The
17     focus on local content and issues is important.  I
18     think CBC radio offers programs which are significantly
19     different from privately operated mainstream programs.
20  517                  I don't know if that caters to a
21     different listening audience, but an audience that has
22     different needs.  I think it does a pretty good job of
23     doing that and helps us to be better informed about the
24     issues and events that are shaping and forming our
25     communities.  It also encourages their active


 1     participation.  I support this role.
 2  518                  The island right now is facing
 3     perhaps one of its most serious economic crisis
 4     situations in recent history.  We have a reputation for
 5     dealing with this.  However, I think we live in an
 6     increasingly complex society with complex solutions. 
 7     Our decisions want to be and demand to be a part of
 8     that decision-making process.  We need vehicles like
 9     CBC radio to help us with communication so that we can
10     help reach some type of consensus and cooperation to
11     fix these problems that we have.
12  519                  In order to marshall those resources,
13     I think CBC radio performs a particularly important
14     function in maintaining and expanding the dialogue.
15  520                  Dialogue is important.  As I have
16     often heard, as many of us probably have around the
17     table, the comments that we hear on radio and read in
18     the papers and listen to in television from ordinary
19     average on-the-street Cape Bretoners and Nova Scotians
20     and Canadians.  I think that brings us a little bit
21     more in touch with the problems and helps us find some
22     of those solutions.
23  521                  I must make one comment.  CBC radio
24     is based in Sydney.  It is one of the few institutions
25     that does an excellent, very credible job of reaching


 1     out into the rural communities and making the rural
 2     communities seem a part of being Cape Bretoners.
 3  522                  We tend to feel a bit left out, away
 4     from major population areas.
 5  523                  There is a broad area of Cape Breton
 6     Island which does not have access to Sydney stations. 
 7     Portions of western and southern parts of the island,
 8     including the Strait of Canso area, receive their CBC
 9     radio feed from the Mulgrave transmitter at the Strait
10     of Canso, which broadcasts the Halifax signal.
11  524                  With all respect to this provincial
12     operation based in Halifax, it does not provide the
13     focus or impact on Cape Breton issues which the Sydney
14     station provides.  I would estimate that there are at
15     least 20,000 Cape Bretoners that do not receive the
16     same message or have the same opportunity to
17     participate as the rest of us.
18  525                  I would ask the CRTC to begin
19     transmitting the Sydney station signal from the
20     Mulgrave transmitter so that all Cape Bretoners can
21     have an equal opportunity to participate in dialogue
22     and discussions of our future, which I think are being
23     very well provided by the public broadcaster on our
24     tiny rock in the stream.
25  526                  I think this decision would go a long


 1     way towards promoting community economic development
 2     activities on the island.
 3  527                  Thank you very much for the
 4     opportunity to be here.
 5  528                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 6     MacDonald.
 7  529                  Mr. Stewart.
 8                                                        1520
 9  530                  MR. STEWART:  I now invite Ms Jo-Ann
10     Citrigno to make her presentation.
12  531                  MS CITRIGNO:  Thank you.  My name is
13     Jo-Ann Citrigno.  I live in Glace Bay.  My background
14     is working with community organizations.  I spent eight
15     years working in community radio, but most recently I
16     have been involved in supervising youth exchanges.
17  532                  I would like to thank the CRTC for
18     this opportunity to speak about the CBC.
19  533                  Many of my comments have also been
20     made by previous speakers, so I will try not to go into
21     too much detail.  I think it is important for all of us
22     who do have similar points to strongly make those
23     points so that the CRTC knows that there are many of us
24     that agree with some of the things that have been said
25     already about local programming and Canadian content. 


 1     I will try and be brief about it.
 2  534                  As has been touched upon by several
 3     people in this room, I also think that it is extremely
 4     important to have local broadcasting.  Cape Breton,
 5     Sydney, industrial Sydney area and all of Cape Breton
 6     is quite far from Halifax.  I used to live in Halifax,
 7     and when I moved here I noticed quite a distinct
 8     difference in terms of community issues.  I think there
 9     is a great need to have a local broadcaster.
10  535                  I think that "Information Morning",
11     as has been previously stated, does a very good job in
12     involving people in the community on the airwaves, both
13     in terms of who they choose to interview and
14     facilitating ways for people to comment on their
15     programs.  I think that is very important.  I wish
16     there was more local programming.
17  536                  I would like to talk a little bit
18     more about radio, which is my more intense love than
19     television, and also where I have a little bit more
20     experience.
21  537                  I am currently unemployed, so I have
22     lots of time to listen to CBC during the day.  While
23     overall I really love CBC in general, I would have to
24     say that I think that they do need more diversity in
25     terms of their music programming, especially the Monday


 1     to Friday daytime.  I really like classical music
 2     personally, but I think the Monday to Friday
 3     programming is very repetitive and some work could be
 4     done to put a little bit more diversity into that music
 5     programming.
 6  538                  I am one of the youngest people in
 7     the room today, I think.  That is not surprising, but I
 8     think it is a shame.  I think that CBC does not cater
 9     enough to youth.  I guess that is partly where I am
10     coming from when I talk about the lack of diversity
11     within its music programming.
12  539                  Having come from a community radio
13     background, I am aware that there is an awful lot more
14     musical styles out there that are represented on CBC,
15     and there are a lot of communities that don't hear
16     their voices.
17  540                  One example that I am pretty aware of
18     from my experience at the community station CKDU in
19     Halifax is that you rarely hear any hip-hop or dance
20     music on CBC, as well as other smaller genres, like
21     blues and bluegrass.  While there is an attempt to do
22     some world music, it is still limited to a very small
23     portion of the airwave time slots.
24  541                  I say this very sincerely.  I think a
25     lot of people, when they hear me say that there should


 1     be more hip-hop or any hip-hop on CBC, probably think
 2     well, there are so few people that want to listen to
 3     that.  But that is not true.  There are so many people,
 4     particularly youth, that that is the music that is most
 5     meaningful to them.  It is just one example of my
 6     perception that the CBC is not appealing to a younger
 7     audience.
 8  542                  Certainly that could be extended to
 9     current affairs programming, of course, having younger
10     produces and more interviews with youth.  But I really
11     notice it with music primarily.
12  543                  One idea I had in terms of my
13     criticism of the monotony of CBC FM "Classics and
14     Beyond" -- while I really do think the programming is
15     of high quality, it just needs more diversity.
16  544                  Perhaps one possibility would be to
17     have a weekly time slot in that block of mainly
18     classical music where there would be a competition for
19     young producers across the country to do a show, to
20     have an opportunity to not only showcase different
21     kinds of music but perhaps to have different styles of
22     hosting, of show production.
23  545                  I think it would be nice to hear
24     people from across the country.  I think there is a
25     wealth of talented people in the community radio sector


 1     that, for the most part, are going to stay in the
 2     community radio sector; they are not going to move to
 3     CBC.  But we could benefit from hearing more from them
 4     on those airwaves.
 5  546                  Sydney, for example, only has a
 6     university radio station that broadcasts on campus.  It
 7     doesn't go off campus.  And there are so many smaller
 8     communities than Sydney across the country that don't
 9     have access to community radio.
10  547                  In terms of television, which I don't
11     watch as much as listen to the radio, the main thing I
12     want to say is that I appreciate the support for
13     Canadian programming.  I think it is very important to
14     see ourselves on the air, and I think it is very
15     important to allow people who have great creative
16     contributions to have an opportunity to air their
17     creative output, whether it is audio or visual.
18  548                  I have been happy that attempts are
19     made with shows from times to time, shows like "North
20     of 60" and "Black Harbour".  Even if they don't last,
21     it is nice to see them for a short time; and shows like
22     "This Hour has 22 Minutes" and "The Royal Canadian Air
23     Farce" and "Comics".
24  549                  "Comics" especially, I am not as fond
25     of it as the previously two mentioned shows, but I am


 1     just glad that those people have a chance to go on the
 2     air and people have a chance to hear them.  I am glad
 3     that CBC supports talent like that.
 4  550                  In terms of both television and radio
 5     in terms of the news and current affairs broadcasts, I
 6     want to say that the CBC is very important for me. 
 7     There are many different sources of news available, and
 8     I make those available to myself; but I find that I do
 9     rely heavily on CBC for news and current affairs
10     programming, and I hope that that continues to be a
11     very strong area for them.
12  551                  As I said earlier, the local
13     broadcasting is really important for keeping in touch
14     with local issues.
15  552                  I do want to specifically say that I
16     appreciate the quality of reporting on "The National"
17     and I appreciate the representation in terms of the
18     reporters.  As Ms Cusack said earlier, I think that CBC
19     has gone a long way to representing women on the
20     airwaves, and I am happy to see increased
21     representation of people from various ethnic
22     backgrounds in terms of reporting on "The National".
23  553                  I am very happy about that --
24     although of course there are still ways to go there
25     too.


 1  554                  To finish, I want to emphasize the
 2     importance of CBC in terms of promoting and helping to
 3     create Canadian culture.  I think CBC plays a vital
 4     role in doing that, especially in promoting lesser
 5     known Canadian artists; musical and those participating
 6     in drama, actors, writers and producers, and all
 7     aspects of creative broadcast time.
 8  555                  I think many Canadians do have a hard
 9     time articulating what Canadian culture is.  I know
10     that many youth do, because I have been working with
11     youth for a long time.  I want to say, even though I am
12     not necessarily better at articulating what Canadian
13     culture is or is not, I am very aware of it as an
14     entity or as a thing, because I have spent four years
15     overseas.
16  556                  CBC is an important part of whatever
17     it is.  Even though it might be hard to sort of pin
18     down, there is Canadian culture and it is represented
19     on the CBC; and I hope that in the future more effort
20     will be put into promoting it as opposed to less.  I
21     think there is a lot of room to do more of it.
22  557                  As also has been said previously, it
23     is very important for myself to have an alternative to
24     commercial radio and TV.  I don't like the homogeneity
25     of those broadcasters, as has been said earlier.


 1  558                  I think that is all I want to say,
 2     except perhaps one comment.  I appreciate the
 3     difficulties that broadcasters have in attaining
 4     balance, especially on controversial issues, as has
 5     been referred to by two of the speakers.  While I
 6     personally don't agree with everything that the CBC
 7     says at all, I think they work pretty hard in trying to
 8     achieve that balance.
 9  559                  Thank you.
10  560                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
11     Ms Citrigno, and thanks for reminding those of us who
12     are older than you are that we are older.  I am trying
13     to imagine playing hip-hop on the bagpipes that Mr.
14     MacKay was referring to earlier.
15  561                  Mr. Stewart.
16                                                        1535
17  562                  MR. STEWART:  I now invite Mr. David
18     Papazian.  I hope that is the way one pronounces your
19     name, sir; and if I have mispronounced it, I apologize.
21  563                  MR. PAPAZIAN:  Pretty close.
22  564                  Good afternoon.  Thank you for the
23     opportunity to address you.  My comments are mainly fro
24     my experience as a regular listener to CBC Radio One,
25     the former AM network.


 1  565                  I come before you today as an
 2     individual Canadian citizen, representing no political
 3     party or advocacy group.  My special interest is a
 4     vibrant, thoughtful, responsible Canadian civic culture
 5     for my own behalf and thus, by extension, for all of my
 6     fellow citizens.
 7  566                  In a many cultured nation, divided as
 8     we are by many miles and mountains, the task of
 9     creating and facilitating a dynamic and positive civic
10     discourse could be formidable.  Civic discourse is, by
11     nature, controversial, complicated and often downright
12     messy.
13  567                  It involves an ongoing self-renewal,
14     an informed dialogue, understanding, listening,
15     learning of and from one another.
16  568                  On the eve of the new millennium, the
17     founding spirit and intentions of the Broadcasting Act
18     should be revisited and replanted in our minds, I
19     believe.
20  569                  The CBC's mandate, as enunciated in
21     the 1968 Act, required that the national broadcasting
22     service be predominantly Canadian in character and
23     content, be a balanced service of information,
24     enlightenment and entertainment for the people of
25     different ages, different interests and tastes,


 1     covering the whole range of programming in fair
 2     proportion, to be extended to all parts of Canada, to
 3     be in English and French, serving the special needs of
 4     geographic regions, and actively contributing to the
 5     flow and exchange of cultural and regional information
 6     and entertainment, and to provide for a continuing
 7     expression of the Canadian identity.
 8  570                  That is a tall order, and inevitably
 9     there are going to be some people who are going to feel
10     left out or misrepresented or under-represented.
11  571                  The CBC fulfils its role as the
12     national public broadcaster as well as it possibly can
13     in this day and age, given the constant budgetary
14     pressures that successive federal governments have
15     placed on it over the last 15 years.
16  572                  The notion that the airwaves are in
17     some significant measure a public space, free from
18     commercial self-interest, dedicated to the pursuit of
19     the common good, this is the bedrock of the founding
20     philosophy of the CBC.  This role should never change,
21     despite constantly evolving technologies -- expensive
22     technologies in a lot of cases, I agree.
23  573                  The CBC radio serves the public a
24     healthy balance of local, as we have heard a lot about,
25     regional, as we have heard a fair amount about, and


 1     national programming.
 2  574                  Local stations have been closed and
 3     repeat broadcasts have become commonplace on the CBC of
 4     late.  Various locations, as was stated, remain unable
 5     to access a reliable radio signal in 1999.
 6  575                  Huntsville, Ontario, in the heart of
 7     the Muskokas, and various parts of this island, Cape
 8     Breton, as was previously mentioned, are known to me
 9     personally.  There are numerous other spots across this
10     huge country, and this problem should be rectified
11     immediately.
12  576                  Nonetheless, the remaining employees
13     soldier on as best they can with dwindling resources. 
14     Now, not surprisingly, we have labour disputes.
15  577                  Canada enjoys a unique and a proud
16     place in the history of radio, as Mr. MacKay mentioned,
17     and of public broadcasting, as I believe you are well
18     aware.  We were one of the first in the world -- maybe
19     not the first, but one of the first, and public
20     broadcasting has a special place in this country.  It
21     has to.  It is too big a country.  Otherwise, we
22     wouldn't have a hope.
23  578                  This important heritage should be
24     celebrated and not nickel and dimed out of existence. 
25     My alarm bells rang loud and clear around 1988 when it


 1     became known that the new broadcasting centre in
 2     Toronto -- the place everyone outside of Toronto loves
 3     to hate; I am from Toronto, by the way -- was financed
 4     by 80 per cent private capital, a hitherto
 5     unprecedented, and dare I say an unwelcome,
 6     arrangement.
 7  579                  Stable, long term financing was
 8     advocated repeatedly:  in 1949 by the Massey
 9     Commission; in 1957 by the Fowler Commission; in 1961
10     by the Glasgow Commission; in 1965 by the Fowler
11     Committee; and in a White Paper in 1966.  All this
12     leading up to the Broadcasting Act after the centenary
13     in 1968.
14  580                  In an ideal Canada, in my view, a
15     proclamation of the responsibility of the Federal
16     Government to guarantee adequate, even generous,
17     funding to the public broadcaster could be included in
18     the Bill of Rights, as in it is the right of all
19     Canadians to enjoy, et cetera, clause.  Or it could be
20     written into the Constitution as a basic obligation of
21     the Federal Government.
22  581                  The present cost of about $5 a year
23     per Canadian citizen for the present level of the radio
24     service in Canada is most modest, in my opinion, and a
25     very prudent investment in our collective well-being.


 1  582                  It is public organizations like a
 2     national broadcaster which help knit together the
 3     social fabric, that help us to be civil to one another
 4     in daily life, to be kind, to cooperate, as we surely
 5     must in this vast country of north.
 6  583                  Your third question, the mandate of
 7     1968, I stated previously.  What other station presents
 8     programs on science and sports, world beat, pop
 9     culture, religion, comedy, theatre and the arts? 
10     "Ideas", the "University of the Air", the flagship "As
11     It Happens", covering the globe; jazz and "The Music of
12     Quebec", "C'est la vie"; a much needed dialogue from
13     French to English Canada -- and I emphasize dialogue;
14     politics, local, morning, noon -- well, not noon shows
15     locally here any more, but local morning and afternoon
16     shows in many parts of the country.
17  584                  I never even mentioned Peter Gzowski,
18     who has recently retired but whose spirit still is
19     around and whose example on "Morningside" was I think
20     an example for all of us of the guy who could speak to
21     just about anybody and listen to them and talk to them
22     in their language and learn from them.
23  585                  Under your auspices, private
24     broadcasters are free to invent their format of
25     programming and services.  They are free to target


 1     their audience, tailor their advertising strategies and
 2     enhance their bottom line as they choose.  This is not
 3     to say that the private broadcasters are inferior to
 4     the CBC, but rather to point out that they occupy
 5     mutually exclusive territory.
 6  586                  There should be no conflict of
 7     interest between private and public broadcasters in
 8     that case, in my opinion.
 9  587                  Television, I think all Canadian
10     programming is a good idea.
11  588                  Economically, the money that is
12     invested is our money, as taxpayers and citizens.  The
13     spinoffs are remarkable.  They are incalculable really. 
14     It is impossible to measure them in dollars and cents. 
15     All these people that have jobs from the CBC are paying
16     taxes and investing that money back into the economy
17     right away.  It is not like it is being thrown down the
18     drain, like some people would think.
19  589                  The kind of activity that is
20     generated by the CBC -- and various of the presenters
21     today have spent a good deal of their time talking
22     about that activity -- and the mentality that that
23     creates and the imagination that that stimulates
24     individually, collectively, we can't put a price on. 
25     We can't even think about putting a price on it.


 1  590                  At the risk of repeating myself, I
 2     will approach your last point:  What special role
 3     should the CBC play in the presentation of Canadian
 4     programming?  By way of speaking of the notion of civic
 5     or public education, a society which neglects the
 6     responsibility of educating its citizens is at the
 7     least short-sighted and at the very worst
 8     self-destructive.
 9  591                  Socrates, the champion of democracy,
10     well understood the necessity for an informed and
11     engaged citizenry.  The shared costs of a public
12     broadcasting service should be seen as an investment in
13     ourselves and our collective civility.  This very
14     modest investment reaps untold benefits, as I have
15     mentioned.
16  592                  It would be hard to name a prominent
17     Canadian artist, writer, musician or actor who would
18     not credit the CBC for part of their success and their
19     livelihood.  It is an essential conduit of grassroots
20     and indigenous stories, as was said, and news, as was
21     said, without which we would know significantly less
22     about ourselves.
23  593                  Do we want to be strangers in this
24     vast land, or do we want to feel as neighbours?  Do we
25     care about each other or not?  Can we listen to one


 1     another or not?
 2  594                  Despite the marvellous advances in
 3     communication technology, we risk becoming further
 4     alienated in our private cyber worlds, if not for a
 5     dedicated voice of national and public interest.
 6  595                  Canadians are free to turn it on or
 7     turn it off, but the choice must remain for us to make. 
 8     I fear certain recent trends endanger the CBC.  The
 9     arm's length relationship of its operations from its
10     funding source must be maintained.
11  596                  MR. STEWART:  Excuse me, sir, your
12     ten minutes are up.
13  597                  MR. PAPAZIAN:  I am just winding up. 
14     Shall I conclude?
15  598                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you can
16     summarize your conclusion.
17  599                  MR. PAPAZIAN:  Is it not the CRTC's
18     responsibility to oversee this relationship -- that is,
19     the arm's length relationship -- and to counsel the
20     government of the day if necessary?
21  600                  Industrial managers and corporate
22     bean counters are not suitable appointments to
23     executive positions at the CBC, in my judgment.
24  601                  Please remind Canadians and their
25     governments of the value and character of the public


 1     airwaves, free from commerce.  The founding fathers
 2     well understood the need for meaningful links to unite
 3     us.  Without them, we risk sure and certain dissolution
 4     and fragmentation.
 5  602                  Thanks for listening.
 6  603                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 7     much.
 8  604                  Mr. Stewart.
 9                                                        1550
10  605                  MR. STEWART:  Thank you.
11  606                  I now invite Mr. Bob Peters to make
12     his presentation.
13  607                  Mr. Peters, if you could adhere to
14     the ten-minute format, it would most appreciated. 
15     Thank you.
17  608                  MR. PETERS:  This should only take
18     two minutes.
19  609                  I didn't adhere to any sort of
20     outline or program, because I didn't get it in time to
21     look at it.
22  610                  My name is Bob Peters.  I am from
23     Margaree, Cape Breton, and I am a CBC radio fan.
24  611                  I listen to CBC radio in my car while
25     I do my deliveries for five hours a day.  I listen to


 1     CBC radio in my workshop.  I listen to CBC in my home
 2     while making supper and doing the dishes.  Suffice it
 3     to say, I am a proud fan of CBC radio.
 4  612                  Therefore, it concerns me that I
 5     perceive interference on the content of your news
 6     items.
 7  613                  For example, one morning at 5:00
 8     a.m., I heard an item about a possible link between the
 9     Hep B vaccination and multiple sclerosis.  This item
10     was not repeated any more that day.  Because our
11     children were due to have a school-sponsored
12     vaccination that week, I was disappointed that I heard
13     no more details.
14  614                  Was this a deliberate attempt at
15     quashing a potential embarrassment to our public health
16     system?
17  615                  Another example was a story that I
18     heard again at 5:00 a.m.  It was concerning U.S.
19     bombing and shelling of Iraq, where it was disclosed
20     that spent uranium was placed inside the shells, so
21     that upon contact with the targets the radioactive
22     uranium would disperse, causing much more misery in
23     that country.
24  616                  Again, this story was not
25     rebroadcast, and the question arises:  Why and who is


 1     responsible for blocking this story?
 2  617                  Do these two examples point to
 3     government censorship?  If so, there is an obvious
 4     problem.
 5  618                  Turning to something that is probably
 6     more trivial than that, some years ago a Sydney radio
 7     host was disciplined severely for playing one of her
 8     own songs during her morning program.  She played the
 9     song as a result of a request from one of her
10     listeners.
11  619                  Recently on his morning program from
12     Halifax, the host on several occasions played a song
13     that he wrote.  No disciplinary measures were taken
14     against him.  This points to unfair practices, I
15     believe.
16  620                  Finally, I feel the strike should be
17     settled by offering the workers a fair package.  I wish
18     the CBC would stop this leading advertising directed
19     against the unions and bargain in good faith.
20  621                  Thank you very much.
21  622                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
22     Peters.  I don't think we will resolve that last issue
23     around this table today.
24                                                        1555
25  623                  M. STEWART:  J'inviterais maintenant


 1     M. Clermont Charland de la Fédération acadienne de la
 2     Nouvelle-Écosse de Sydney à faire sa présentation, si
 3     cette personne est ici.
 4  624                  Is Mr. Clermont Charland of the
 5     Federation Acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse in the room? 
 6     No.
 7  625                  Very well, I will now invite Mr. Alan
 8     Bird to make his presentation.
10  626                  MR. BIRD:  By way of introduction,
11     this is a joint presentation by Valerie, my wife, and
12     myself, Alan Bird.
13  627                  We don't watch television very much
14     so we are not placed to talk about it, not very
15     effectively anyway.  CBC radio is our constant
16     companion and its many voices, local, regional,
17     national, and overseas are welcome visitors to our
18     home.
19  628                  They brighten our lives, bring
20     together the Canadian community for us and exemplify,
21     in our opinion, the finest traditions of journalism. 
22     Their professionalism is second to none.
23  629                  CBC radio does much more than
24     entertain and inform us.  Thanks to the skills and
25     insights of its professional staff and personalities,


 1     it presents Canadians with a public forum.  No matter
 2     who we are or where we live, we can be heard nationally
 3     in discourse of public interest and concern -- which is
 4     rather pompous, now that I listen to it.
 5  630                  It means that we really mean we can
 6     argue the toss with officialdom, municipal, provincial
 7     or federal.
 8  631                  The evidence is that officialdom
 9     usually pays attention, maybe not the first time
10     around, but it gets the message sooner or later.  We
11     submit that there is no other medium in Canada, or
12     anywhere else that I know, that has the same clout. 
13     Perhaps that is the CBC's nemesis today.
14  632                  From that standpoint, there is
15     nothing of consequence that we would change in the way
16     that CBC radio is, or rather I should say was run.  We
17     say was, because we have seen a steady erosion of CBC's
18     presence and resources local, regional, national and
19     now overseas, an erosion driven in part by Ottawa's
20     necessary budgetary constraints.
21  633                  It goes on, however, and we wonder if
22     another agenda is at work now, another motive in play. 
23     There may be no sinister intent in the current proposal
24     to set up in Ottawa a new secretariat of corporate
25     vice-presidents for determining what news Canadians


 1     shall be told and the spin to be put on its telling. 
 2     Whatever the intent, this proposal has sinister
 3     implications, and we are not encouraged to believe
 4     otherwise when CBC's board of directors is stacked with
 5     the PMO's palace guard while the corporation is being
 6     systematically purged of its own professional
 7     management.
 8  634                  In our view, the CBC is not
 9     government property, nor should it be placed in
10     jeopardy of becoming a propaganda mouthpiece for the
11     party in power from time to time.
12  635                  In effect, we believe the CBC's
13     licences to broadcast are a public trust to be held in
14     the benefit of all Canadians, and it is now time to
15     reinforce the corporation's arm's length relationship
16     to Ottawa; that is independence of government must be
17     reasserted and rendered invulnerable.
18  636                  Moreover, it is or should be the
19     first duty of the board of directors to uphold the
20     corporation's independence and public integrity, a duty
21     which should extinguish whatever loyalties and
22     obligations the board members may owe to the authority
23     which appoints them, a solemn understanding between the
24     parties concerned.
25  637                  Perhaps it is time to revisit CBC's


 1     Act of Incorporation such that future appointees to the
 2     board and the appointing authority know the rules. 
 3     This would of course challenge political appointments
 4     to CBC's board, but that would be all to the good as
 5     things stand today, fraught with hostility and
 6     mistrust.  And then again, it would make room at the
 7     table for people who know something about the business
 8     of public broadcasting.
 9  638                  To sum up, we believe CBC stands in
10     danger today from its own mentors; that its rich public
11     value is at risk of being reduced to a poverty of
12     political lip service.  It is critical that the
13     corporation's mandate be reaffirmed for the new
14     millennium, buttressed against political meddling.
15  639                  It tells us something, surely, when
16     listeners in the United States, American listeners,
17     call in to say how fortunate we Canadians are to have
18     such a fine broadcast service as CBC radio.
19  640                  I am afraid if that is contentious,
20     it is not meant to be so.  It is very heartfelt.
21  641                  Thank you.
22                                                        1600
23  642                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
24     Bird.
25  643                  MR. STEWART:  I now invite Ms Theresa


 1     MacNeil to make her presentation.
 3  644                  MS MacNEIL:  Thank you.  When one is
 4     around the 20th in the lot, you wonder whether you
 5     should just cut through and not repeat anything that
 6     has already been said.  I wondered and I opted to do
 7     the repeating, because I think it does make a point
 8     that this is what we feel strongly about.
 9  645                  I am here as a member of the Steering
10     Committee of Friends of Canadian Broadcasting, as a
11     representative of Cape Breton and to represent some
12     views I gathered from various parts of the province
13     from people who wished they could be here from
14     Wolfville, from Halifax, from Truro, from Antigonish
15     and of course from rural Cape Breton.
16  646                  I can't possibly relay all the
17     messages of course, you will be glad to know.  Instead,
18     I will stay with the four questions you circulated and
19     I will try to subsume some of the messages under those
20     questions.
21  647                  The first one is about the way the
22     CBC fulfils its role.
23  648                  The Broadcasting Act of 1991 clearly
24     specifies the role of the CBC as the national public
25     broadcaster responsible for providing "a wide range of


 1     programming that informs, enlightens and entertains". 
 2     Certainly it has done an admirable job of being as the
 3     Act says, predominantly and distinctively Canadian.
 4  649                  But we are witnessing a decline in
 5     the extent to which CBC is able to inform and
 6     enlighten.  We think this is due more to scarce dollars
 7     than to policy, regardless the result is an erosion of
 8     effectiveness.  Locally, regionally, nationally and
 9     internationally we have the benefit of fewer and fewer
10     reporters, providing less and less critical analysis. 
11     As it steadily loses long established, highly competent
12     personnel, we notice that the CBC is either insensitive
13     to the importance of replacing them with competent
14     talent, or is financially unable to do so.  Regardless,
15     the result is lack of lustre, loss of lustre and of
16     value.
17  650                  You ask if the CBC should fulfil its
18     role in a different manner in the future.  Of course,
19     the answer must be yes; yes, because of so many factors
20     in addition to funding and personnel, factors such as
21     the enormous shift in broadcasting technologies,
22     including the Internet.  The way in which the role of
23     CBC is fulfilled must necessarily change, but the role
24     itself must remain.
25  651                  It is difficult to say whose


 1     definition of entertainment should prevail, but it is
 2     clear that if a policy to attract more and more
 3     listeners is realized by shifting over to mass
 4     entertainment, news headlines and minimum attention to
 5     enlightenment, that is abandoning the role.
 6  652                  Attract more listeners, certainly;
 7     but do it with the integrity afforded by the
 8     Broadcasting Act.
 9  653                  The second question is about service
10     on a regional and national level.
11  654                  I would be remiss in not mentioning
12     that the messages I gathered contained much that is
13     positive about local and regional broadcasting.  You
14     have heard them so often this afternoon.  Despite the
15     negative effect of losing the TV station in Sydney
16     virtually, despite the fights we periodically have to
17     wage to keep regional programming, despite the steady
18     shrinking of services, we think our CBC people are
19     doing a great job.
20  655                  We wish they had more to work with. 
21     We wish they were not always waiting for yet another
22     axe to fall.  We applaud their professionalism and
23     their genuine service to the community.
24  656                  The Broadcasting Act requires the CBC
25     to reflect Canada and its regions to national and


 1     regional audiences while serving the special needs of
 2     those regions.  Despite that requirement, we are very
 3     worried that regional broadcasting is going to become a
 4     casualty of three inter-related factors.
 5  657                  One, the labour disputes.  How easy
 6     it will be to stay with the modified centralized mode
 7     we are now experiencing.
 8  658                  Second, the accumulated effects of
 9     budget cuts; and third, plans concocted by the CBC
10     board of directors and senior management to split the
11     CBC into a number of small specialty services.  We fear
12     this.
13  659                  There are two categories of regional
14     programming.  One is produced from the region for a
15     national audience.  At the moment, our region does
16     really well in that category, and you have heard some
17     of it already.  The CBC is an especially good citizen,
18     as a person earlier described about the co-production
19     efforts.  I will skip over that point, but it is a very
20     important point.
21  660                  It is also greatly nourished culture
22     groups, and in particular our black culture -- I am
23     talking about this region.  In its own right, the CBC
24     in Nova Scotia is a development agent.
25  661                  The second category of regional is


 1     the one that serves the special needs of the region. 
 2     We are experiencing losses in that category. 
 3     Relatively little is left of television.  Even the
 4     supper hour news is seriously eroded by budget cuts,
 5     attrition and layoffs.  Radio continues to provide
 6     strong local and regional services, despite losses of
 7     about one-third of their budgets.
 8  662                  I would like to comment about the
 9     national level on two points.
10  663                  First, we are not having sufficient
11     exposure to the other regions of Canada.  This is
12     particularly true for television.  In some other
13     regions there is enormous change in cultural
14     composition.  Not so true here.  That message seldom
15     reaches us, and consequently the joys and challenges
16     presented by the new faces of Canada are not well
17     understood here.
18  664                  Even where the two official languages
19     are concerned, there is not much evidence that CBC and
20     Radio-Canada are showing each other's productions, even
21     through translation.  From the standpoint of social
22     cohesion and good entertainment, much might be gained
23     by sharing the best productions of each network.
24  665                  The second point is similar but
25     refers to classical productions.


 1  666                  On television the CBC is not meeting
 2     its requirement to, as the Act says, "actively
 3     contribute to the flow of exchange of cultural
 4     expression".  This is likely because CBC has become
 5     heavily commercialized and has been forced to aim much
 6     of its programming at mass audiences.
 7  667                  The third question:  Should CBC
 8     programming differ from that provided by other
 9     broadcasters?  The simple answer is of course yes.
10  668                  The CBC has an extraordinary mandate. 
11     Just as we publicly fund education systems to ensure
12     development of certain critical human capacities, that
13     people will develop those capacities, we fund a public
14     broadcasting institution to -- again from the Act:  "to
15     safeguard, enrich and strengthen the cultural,
16     political and social and economic fabric of Canada".
17  669                  This function of the CBC is more
18     critical than ever now that the CRTC has deregulated
19     private broadcasting.  In the new broadcasting
20     environment, the private broadcasters are being
21     required to promote the Canadian music industry by
22     playing 35 per cent Canadian recordings all day.  The
23     rest of the job is left primarily to CBC radio.  Yet,
24     following budget cuts, CBC radio has severely
25     diminished its news and current affairs coverage.


 1  670                  In short, private broadcasters do not
 2     have similar responsibility as is borne by the CBC with
 3     respect to cultural expression.  If that is the way the
 4     CRTC chooses to have the job done, then it ought to
 5     take steps to ensure that the CBC is allocated the
 6     resources to do the job effectively.
 7  671                  I believe it should be clear from the
 8     above responses about my answer about the special role
 9     for the CBC, which is your question four.  There is of
10     course a special role, and it is rooted in the mandate
11     given by the Parliament of Canada.
12  672                  In concluding comments, I want to
13     mention a few other points, very briefly.  They didn't
14     fit quite in the category of the questions.
15  673                  One applies to the rural areas and
16     has to do with coverage and reception.  It has been
17     mentioned by a number of people, and I think it has to
18     be mentioned again.
19  674                  Many households in rural Nova Scotia
20     simply are unable to receive CBC broadcasting.  The
21     reasons are more technical than I am able to describe,
22     but I will just cite my own experience.
23  675                  After years of seeing Peter
24     Mansbridge with three faces on a snowy screen, we
25     finally bought a satellite dish in December.  It is an


 1     expensive alternative for citizens who feel they have a
 2     right to this public service.  But now at least we
 3     receive CBC as broadcast from Toronto and Vancouver, if
 4     not Halifax.  And Peter Mansbridge looks great.
 5  676                  The radio problem has no comparable
 6     solution.  For too many, Radio Two in particular is
 7     simply not available.
 8  677                  My final comment has to do with the
 9     related points of morale and funding.
10  678                  Any sensible person will agree that
11     like any other organization, the CBC has to be fiscally
12     responsible.  In these days of organization
13     restructuring, it is expected that CBC will have to
14     suffer its share.  But too much pressure can be lethal.
15  679                  One realizes we have reached a sorry
16     pass when the American press takes on the subject. 
17     Saturday's Washington Post had an article on the way
18     CBC morale is shrinking with its budget.
19  680                  While we already know about the
20     political tensions, it is noteworthy that the article
21     connects the Prime Minister's "long standing animosity
22     toward the network" with Ottawa's relentless budget
23     cuts to the corporation.  And it quotes various senior
24     associates within the CBC who comment on the current
25     state of depression in the corporation.


 1  681                  I am going to quote from one who is
 2     not now in the CBC.
 3  682                  This loss of enthusiasm, of course,
 4     is evident to all of us.  The article quotes Jeffrey
 5     Davorkin.  He is the former Managing Editor of CBC
 6     English language radio and now is in the U.S. with
 7     national public radio.  He said that the CBC for many,
 8     many years was "simply an astonishing place to work,
 9     probably the best public broadcasting service in the
10     world.  But it has lost that now and there doesn't seem
11     much will to restore it."
12  683                  I hope that matters have not sunk too
13     far.  The CBC needs to have its worth publicly
14     affirmed.  One of the ways to do it is through your
15     efforts, where you demonstrate to the Government of
16     Canada that we want very much to continue the CBC with
17     its present mandate.
18  684                  To fulfil that mandate, it needs
19     adequate levels of multi-year funding, knowing in
20     advance what it is going to be.  If that happens, the
21     organization might well --
22  685                  I forgot the point that the
23     alternative to this might be to turn it into a popular
24     commercial broadcaster, but I don't think that is an
25     alternative.  To do that might enable the organization


 1     to live, but it will have lost the whole point of its
 2     special role.
 3  686                  Through Parliament we have charged
 4     the CBC to be predominantly and distinctively Canadian,
 5     to serve the special needs of the regions, and to
 6     actively contribute to the flow and exchange of
 7     cultural expression.  These are extraordinary demands
 8     requiring the most creative, thorough and committed
 9     resources which will serve all of Canada.  The death of
10     Canada's largest cultural institution simply must not
11     be allowed.  The CRTC is in a position to reinvigorate
12     it.  You have our support as you proceed to do that.
13  687                  Thank you.
14  688                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
15     Ms MacNeil.
16  689                  I think Commissioner Langford has a
17     question for you.
18  690                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I have tried
19     to keep the urge to question participants down, but I
20     think we are getting near the end so maybe I can let
21     the urge go.
22  691                  I wish that the CRTC were the body
23     you just described, but I think perhaps standing
24     between the CRTC you described and the real CRTC is
25     Paul Martin.  And we are not Paul Martin.


 1  692                  Assuming we wished to do everything
 2     you have said but cannot because of what we are -- a
 3     regulator rather than a finance minister -- what other
 4     alternative are there in your mind?
 5  693                  We all remember when the CBC was
 6     described as fat and sassy.  It was kind of a favourite
 7     target.  All of a sudden it is lean and haggard and
 8     walking with a tin cup.  Are there other alternatives?
 9  694                  Should we in fact suggest more
10     advertising?  Should we bring in advertising -- horror
11     of horrors?  If we are not Paul Martin and we want to
12     do the sorts of things that people have spoken about
13     here, what flexibility is open to the CBC and what
14     particular suggestions could we, as a regulating body,
15     make?
16  695                  That is a big question, but maybe
17     just one or two ideas.
18  696                  MS MacNEIL:  And it is going to have
19     a much bigger answer than I have, of course.
20  697                  I am not naive enough to think for a
21     moment that if we just keep saying all the things we
22     are saying this afternoon that we would convince all of
23     the Canadian public.  I don't believe that.  The easy
24     answer is to say more political clout and Paul Martin
25     will hear.


 1  698                  I do think there is a role to be
 2     played, and I guess all of us can help with it, and I
 3     certainly think the CRTC can make a big mark in it. 
 4     That is to remind us about what it is we said we
 5     wanted.
 6  699                  This is an Act of Parliament that we
 7     are working under here.  It is not some whim of a
 8     government of 30 years ago.  This Act is 1991, the one
 9     that we now live under that was passed, and I don't
10     think we really fully appreciate what it is saying.  It
11     is saying it is awfully hard to deny the need for what
12     it is claiming we ought to have.
13  700                  I think there are others around the
14     table who might want to join in on your question.
15  701                  The one thing I would say is that we
16     have to remind Canadians -- and of course the
17     politicians accordingly, as a result of reminding the
18     population -- that this is what the Act says and this
19     is what we want.
20  702                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Before we go on to
21     this, there is one other party who was on the list who
22     arrived after they were called.
23  703                  I am quite interested in pursuing
24     this discussion, but I would rather have him make his
25     presentation before we get too far into this


 1     interesting discussion.
 2  704                  Mr. Stewart.
 3  705                  M. STEWART:  Merci, Monsieur le
 4     président.  Je crois comprendre que M. Clermont
 5     Charland est maintenant dans la salle.
 6  706                  J'invite M. Charland à venir au
 7     microphone afin de faire sa présentation.
 8  707                  M. CHARLAND:  À quel endroit?
 9                                                        1615
10  708                  M. STEWART:  Devant n'importe quel
11     microphone qui est libre.
12  709                  J'aimerais vous souligner que si vous
13     pouvez limiter vos commentaires à environ 10 minutes,
14     ça serait très apprécié.  Merci.
16  710                  M. CHARLAND:  Mon nom est Clermont
17     Charland.  Je suis ici au nom de la Fédération
18     acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse.
19  711                  Est-ce que c'est correct si je
20     m'adresse en français?  Je peux le faire en anglais
21     tout aussi bien, mais ça dérange pas?
22  712                  En français?  O.k.
23  713                  Alors, nous, la Fédération acadienne
24     de la Nouvelle-Écosse, la section Sydney ici plus
25     spécifiquement, je veux parler de deux choses:  d'un


 1     volet, c'est la radio, puis l'autre, c'est la
 2     télévision.
 3  714                  Alors, au niveau de la radio, on n'a
 4     pas vraiment le choix parce qu'ici lorsqu'on est dans
 5     un milieu minoritaire, les stations de radio
 6     francophones à Sydney, il y en a une.  C'est
 7     Radio-Canada.  Alors, on n'a vraiment pas le choix.  On
 8     n'est pas vraiment content du contenu dans le sens
 9     qu'il n'y a absolument rien au niveau local.
10  715                  Tout arrive de Halifax.  Il y a
11     quelques heures de programmation le matin qui viennent
12     de Halifax.  Le restant de la journée... je pense que
13     l'avant-midi il vient de Moncton, et puis le restant,
14     bien la plupart du temps, ça vient de Montréal.  Alors,
15     il n'y a absolument aucun contenu local.
16  716                  Bien souvent dans la journée, si on
17     entend les nouvelles, les nouvelles de Radio-Canada
18     International, ça c'est correct.  Ça nous concerne,
19     tout ce qui se passe dans le monde.  Mais un moment
20     donné, on a le volet les Maritimes, on parle du
21     Nouveau-Brunswick, on parle de Terre-Neuve, on parle de
22     la Nouvelle-Écosse et différentes provinces,
23     l'Ile-du-Prince-Édouard, mais le contenu régional
24     manque un peu à cet effet-là.
25  717                  Si je peux parler au niveau de la


 1     télévision, mais encore là, ici à Sydney-même, si on
 2     regarde la câblodistribution, on a Radio-Canada,
 3     Quatre-Saisons et TVA.  Alors, on a un certain choix. 
 4     Si on n'est pas content de Radio-Canada, bien on peut
 5     toujours aller aux deux autres postes.  Mais on est
 6     quand même très limité à comparer des autres canaux. 
 7     Disons, sur 50-60 canaux, il y a peut-être 57 canaux
 8     anglophones, trois francophones.
 9  718                  Pour ceux d'entre nous, moi
10     d'ailleurs, qui demeurent un peu à l'extérieur de la
11     ville, dans le secteur de New Waterford, Glace Bay,
12     aussitôt qu'on s'éloigne de la ville, on n'est plus sur
13     le câble du Cap Breton.  On est sur ce qu'on appelle le
14     Seaside cable.  Lorsque je suis déménagé à Sydney il y
15     a trois ans, j'ai été vraiment frustré de ça lorsque je
16     me suis aperçu qu'on avait un seul poste français. 
17     C'était Radio-Canada.  Alors encore-là, on n'avait
18     absolument aucun choix.  C'était Radio-Canada ou bien
19     rien.
20  719                  Alors, j'ai fait une plainte.  J'ai
21     eu une petite pétition, et puis, le câblodistributeur a
22     bien voulu rajouter Quatre-Saisons.  Alors, on était
23     content.  Puis là, on est en négociations avec le CRTC. 
24     J'ai fait une plainte moi-même au CRTC pour essayer
25     d'avoir TVA.  Je sais qu'éventuellement on va l'avoir.


 1  720                  Puis aussi, on n'a pas le RDI.  Le
 2     Réseau de l'information qui est disponible du côté
 3     anglophone n'est bien sûr pas disponible du côté
 4     francophone.  Que ce soit du côté du câble local, le
 5     câble Breton ou bien le Seaside cable, ni l'un ni
 6     l'autre ne diffuse présentement le Réseau
 7     d'information.
 8  721                  Alors, on est un peu limité.  Comme
 9     madame a mentionné tout à l'heure, on est vraiment
10     enseveli depuis quelques années avec les réseaux
11     américains.  C'est certain si on n'est pas content de
12     la diffusion de Radio-Canada ou les autres canaux
13     anglophones canadiens, bien on peut toujours aller du
14     côté américain.  C'est pas le choix qui manque.
15  722                  Mais lorsqu'on est francophone et
16     puis qu'on essaie, des fois, c'est difficile en milieu
17     minoritaire.  On essaie... on se bat pour essayer de
18     maintenir notre langue.  Nous, les adultes, on est
19     correct dans le sens que surtout si notre première
20     langue maternelle est le français, soit acadien ou
21     canadien-français, alors, c'est acquis.  Mais pour nos
22     jeunes qui grandissent, eux, il faut faire attention. 
23     Je vois déjà mes enfants ou plusieurs enfants qui vont
24     toujours le côté le plus facile.
25  723                  Alors, pourquoi écouter la télévision


 1     en français quand on a un choix limité?  On peut aller
 2     du côté anglophone, puis avoir un choix illimité. 
 3     Alors, quand on vit en milieu minoritaire, il faut
 4     vraiment faire attention.  Il faut vraiment se battre
 5     pour nos droits.
 6  724                  Alors, c'est à peu près ça là.  Je ne
 7     sais pas si vous avez des questions.
 8  725                  M. STEWART:  Merci, Monsieur
 9     Charland.
10     --- Applause / Applaudissements
11  726                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is there anybody
12     else that was on the list or had registered to make a
13     presentation here today who has not done so yet?
14  727                  Is there anybody else who had not
15     registered who wants to say a word or two?
16  728                  Then, maybe we can return to the
17     question Commissioner Langford asked.
18  729                  I don't know whether anybody else
19     wants to respond to the issue.  Ms MacNeil had made a
20     comment
21  730                  MR. MacKAY:  Mr. Chairman, in
22     response to Ms MacNeil's comment that parts of Cape
23     Breton are not covered by the CBC, there is what they
24     call an LPRT, a low power radio transmitter, that can
25     be placed on a pole.  It is 20 watts only, but it is


 1     good for any community.
 2  731                  I think if people who are in a place
 3     like that -- I would go after the CBC vigorously and
 4     try to get that facility into your area.
 5  732                  They have it in St. Peters; they have
 6     it in Arishat; they have it in Margaree; and Pumpket, I
 7     think.  It is microwaved to those areas into an LPRT,
 8     which is very low maintenance.  I think the CBC
 9     technician probably once a year maintains it.  So it is
10     very low cost, and it is very effective.
11  733                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
12     MacKay.
13  734                  I think you Mr. Papazian wanted to
14     make a comment?
15  735                  MR. PAPAZIAN:  I would like to
16     clarify our point.  What is your mandate?  What is your
17     enunciated mandate when it comes to -- when faced with
18     a Broadcasting Act that I suppose mandates the
19     government somehow.
20  736                  It is the Government of Canada that
21     has to follow the Broadcasting Act.  Right?
22  737                  The Broadcasting Act was renewed the
23     last time in 1991?  We could go back to 1968, and we
24     could go back, and so on and so forth.
25  738                  In each case it seems to me the


 1     intentions are virtually identical.  It is very clear. 
 2     It has not changed.  That is Ms MacNeil's point about
 3     the role.  Your question was a little bit misleading: 
 4     should the role change in the new millennium, or
 5     whatever.
 6  739                  Yes, it is going to change, because
 7     we have new technologies; they evolve constantly. 
 8     Television was barely an idea when radio came in, et
 9     cetera.
10  740                  The point is the role remains
11     identically the same.  It always will.  That is the
12     sense of continuity.
13  741                  My question is or my clarification
14     is:  Haven't you people got some sense of -- part of
15     your mandate is to counsel or remind, as I said in my
16     presentation.  Is that part of your mandate or is it
17     not?
18  742                  Regulate, oversee, implement the
19     Broadcast Act?
20  743                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is.  But as Mr.
21     Langford was pointing out, we don't control the purse
22     strings.  We don't allocate the funding to the CBC.
23  744                  To answer your question, we can make
24     comments to the government about the adequacy of the
25     funding, or whatever, but we don't have the power to


 1     make the determination of the size of the budget.  That
 2     is really --
 3  745                  MR. PAPAZIAN:  No one is asking you
 4     to make a number, sir.  I think the point you just
 5     said -- you just said that you have the obligation to
 6     represent to the government, especially when you hear
 7     from round tables like this that Canadians are
 8     concerned that their broadcaster, the public airwaves,
 9     is being nickelled and dimed out of existence contrary
10     to an Act of Parliament, you just reaffirmed to me, I
11     believe, if I understand your reply, that you have an
12     obligation to remind the government that it is not
13     doing its job.
14  746                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I don't think those
15     were the words I used.  Let me try by asking a little
16     different question on the same thing, and we can
17     perhaps open it up for discussion.
18  747                  Ms. MacNeil, I was intrigued by a
19     comment you made -- and I was not able to write all of
20     this down.  Earlier in your comments you made some
21     reference to you hoped the CBC would not become smaller
22     by focusing on smaller specialty services.  I think
23     those were the words you used.
24  748                  MS MacNEIL:  Yes.
25  749                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Before you answer,


 1     there has been some talk from the CBC -- I think it was
 2     raised first during the TV Policy Hearings -- about
 3     this notion of constellations.  I think that was the
 4     phrase they have been using.  About perhaps expanding
 5     into a number of other areas of specialty program
 6     services, either on television or radio, and about
 7     spending moneys on new media and program services
 8     related to the Internet, and so on.
 9  750                  I wonder what your comment was
10     meaning when you talked about smaller specialty
11     services and particularly in the context of getting
12     back to Commissioner Langford's question about funding
13     and how from a regulatory point of view one might
14     address this issue of dealing with that whole question
15     of adequate funding.
16  751                  MS MacNEIL:  I am sort of on the line
17     that Mr. MacKay was.  He used a really straightforward
18     example about technology.  I was thinking in the same
19     vein, but about the suggestion recently of all of the
20     news being handled in one place; that we would have a
21     CBC news network perhaps.  That is what I am seeing out
22     of this suggestion of movement of CBC news to Ottawa.
23  752                  I don't pretend to know much more
24     than I read in the newspapers about this.
25  753                  As we would focus -- and you see it


 1     in a way with Radio One and Radio Two.  As we multiply
 2     all of this, I understand the point.  It is a good
 3     point of picking up and holding listeners and viewers,
 4     but it is also a danger of these becoming independent
 5     networks and losing the integrity of the Canadian
 6     Broadcasting Corporation.  There is a danger of
 7     boutiques that are not particularly related one to the
 8     other.  That is all I saw.
 9  754                  What has that got to do with funding,
10     I wonder?
11  755                  It was easy to see when Mr. MacKay
12     was speaking that there might be some priorities that
13     come before, just heading down the road pell-mell to
14     improve technology or to move to the latest technology.
15  756                  I think it is not a very easy thing
16     we are asking the CBC to do.  We are asking them to be
17     very fiscally controlled and to do all of these
18     wonderful things in terms of fulfilling the mandate
19     they have been given through the Act.
20  757                  I think if we keep reminding them and
21     ourselves and the Government of Canada most of all
22     about what that mandate is and how important it is,
23     there will be ways to do it.  There will be ways to do
24     it even through tax dollars.
25  758                  But right now, I see the fight is


 1     between -- it seems to be much more political than it
 2     ought to be.  I don't think the dollar problem -- I
 3     grant that it is very serious, but I don't think it is
 4     the whole story it is being made out to be.
 5  759                  If we look at the integrity of the
 6     act and then think of the specialty pieces that need to
 7     be put in, it will somehow all fit together like the
 8     roots that you were speaking about earlier -- I'm
 9     sorry, I don't remember your name -- and the unifying
10     feature.
11  760                  I would love is somebody else would
12     pick up from me.
13  761                  I can only say that it is important
14     to maintain the integrity, to do the best we can on
15     finances.  And as we do that, I think there will be
16     more public money forthcoming.
17  762                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Perhaps I can
18     clarify what I was leading to.
19  763                  I am not trying to push anybody into
20     a position here, and please understand that I heard and
21     took careful notes and will read the transcripts on
22     every word that was said here.
23  764                  I am not suggesting that anybody's
24     position is the wrong position or is a position that I
25     am not going to listen to.  I was merely trying to


 1     squeeze a little more out of you.
 2  765                  We have come here to listen to you
 3     and that's what we do; and the more we can get, the
 4     better.  If you don't have a position on this, that's
 5     fine.
 6  766                  I listened with interest to Ms
 7     Verrill, who is speaking in terms of groups who are
 8     using office space on Sackville Street.  We have kind
 9     of an interesting situation.  Here is the CBC being
10     kind and giving people some office space.  Probably
11     they could rent that office space and make a little
12     money for their regional programming.
13  767                  So there are some strange things
14     going on here.  They are wonderful things.  In one
15     sense, this is a wonderful story.  In another sense,
16     where do they get the money; and if they can't get the
17     money --
18  768                  If people here have ideas, that is
19     simply all I am looking for; if there are more ideas,
20     or if there are priorities.  Should they be out of this
21     type of programming and more into this?
22  769                  We heard from Ms Citrigno that she
23     would like to see a little more programming for younger
24     audiences.  If they move in that direction and they
25     don't get more financing, where do they move away from?


 1  770                  If people don't have any ideas on
 2     that, that is fine; but if you do, and I can squeeze
 3     them out of you, I will leave here even happier than I
 4     am now.
 5  771                  MS CUSACK:  First of all, on the
 6     issue of the CRTC's ability to perhaps push Paul
 7     Martin, should it be inclined to do so at the end of
 8     this series of hearings, I would think that you are in
 9     a perfect position to -- this was said earlier, but I
10     want to re-emphasize it -- reflect the diverse voices
11     you are going to hear from around the country to
12     government.
13  772                  In the past, I think you have
14     strongly stated things in the regulation of the
15     communications industry in this country.  You have made
16     certain assertions with very strong moralsuasion, I
17     think.  You are in a position to do that, and I think
18     you should take on that challenge in defence of the
19     principles in the legislation.
20  773                  On the other point you raised with
21     Dr. MacNeil, let me say that I think when you dilute
22     the resources, particularly when they are limited, you
23     really do risk taking away the vitality of that same
24     tree about which we have been talking.
25  774                  Interestingly, there was a physician


 1     on "Information Morning" regionally this morning who
 2     talked about the high death rate for women in child
 3     birth.  He said that the Yamini women were dying
 4     because they were having too many children and just
 5     burning out the resources of their bodies and that
 6     there is a direct correlation.
 7  775                  I think the same would happen if we
 8     had five or six CBC networks running in tandem.  We now
 9     have several -- I mean five or six English networks. 
10     We now have several networks.  I think it is about all
11     the body can bear at this point.
12  776                  I want to make a third point.
13  777                  There were two speakers who addressed
14     the issue of objectivity and so-called family values.
15  778                  I am a member of a group called
16     EGALE, Equality for Gays and Lesbians Everywhere, as a
17     lawyer.  I am also a member of the Canadian Bar
18     Association's SOGIC group, which is the Sexual
19     Orientation and Gender Identity Conference.  I wish to
20     point out that I doubt very much that the views of
21     those speakers reflect totally the views of all of the
22     people in this room, and certainly do not reflect the
23     views of all of the population of Nova Scotia.
24  779                  Family values in Canada now, I think,
25     have a far greater meaning; and that is, they reflect


 1     the diversity of the population, not just cultural
 2     diversity but also the diversity of sexual orientations
 3     and the diversities of families, single families, same
 4     sex families, families comprised of friends.
 5  780                  I think it is important to note that.
 6  781                  Finally, in defence of the CBC, I
 7     have listened to the same programs about which they
 8     were commenting and am rather horrified to think that
 9     the they thought the reporting was not objective or
10     that the commentary was not objective, particularly on
11     that Alberta Report program where the persons who
12     perhaps were reflected in a bad light at the end of the
13     day were given plenty of opportunity to express their
14     views, and did so articulately.  I don't think they
15     were badly edited.
16  782                  Thank you.
17  783                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I have heard a
18     number of comments about this discussion we have had
19     regarding funding, and I am curious to know what
20     message you would want us to leave here with in terms
21     of our regulatory role relative to the CBC.
22  784                  Would it only be that we should
23     impress upon the government the importance of funding?
24  785                  I must say I was quite struck today
25     by the comments that we have heard in that most of


 1     them -- if I had to pick a number on a percentage,
 2     probably 80 per cent of the comments related to radio
 3     and radio's importance as a local medium for local
 4     expression and local understanding.
 5  786                  There were not a lot of comments
 6     about television; a few, somewhat related to alleged
 7     bias in programming.
 8  787                  There were a number of comments about
 9     the importance of programming reflecting Canada and
10     Canadians.  But the programs that were largely referred
11     to were programs like "22 Minutes" and "Pit Pony", and
12     other programs which are largely seen on the national
13     network.
14  788                  I am curious to know what you think
15     we should be doing from a regulatory point of view with
16     respect to radio in terms of local expression and local
17     reflection on CBC radio.
18  789                  I will get to the CBC folks to
19     comment, but I want to get the views around the table
20     first.
21  790                  Mr. Papazian?
22  791                  MR. PAPAZIAN:  You are soliciting
23     comments as it pertains to radio in terms of regulatory
24     responsibilities.
25  792                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.


 1  793                  MR. PAPAZIAN:  I think most of the
 2     comments that we have made today with regard to
 3     radio -- and I think radio is predominant here because
 4     it is an important thing for a quasi-rural type area --
 5     with no offence to the Sydney people.  Radio becomes
 6     very necessary.
 7  794                  I am at a loss.  Are you asking me
 8     should the radio start running commercials?
 9  795                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, no.  What I am
10     struck with is (a) the emphasis on radio, and within
11     radio the emphasis on local.
12  796                  We often hear debate in this whole
13     issue about television and local expression.
14  797                  MR. PAPAZIAN:  Right.
15  798                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  It seems to me that
16     today we have heard very little reference to
17     television, and what reference we have heard has been
18     to programs that are largely on the national network. 
19     Most of the concern seems to be about radio.
20  799                  Would I take it that people are
21     satisfied with CBC radio and how it operates, setting
22     aside the current problems; that we know there are
23     problems with some of the programming come from Halifax
24     to serve the region as a result of the strike right
25     now.


 1  800                  Would it be fair to say that people
 2     are pretty satisfied with radio and the way it serves
 3     local needs?
 4  801                  MR. PAPAZIAN:  Could I say probably? 
 5     And could I also offer perhaps if people didn't speak
 6     so much about television, or at least not in the same
 7     way as they speak about radio, it is because radio is
 8     still a wholly public broadcast service.
 9  802                  Television is one foot in the private
10     sector and one foot out in some ways, isn't it?  It
11     solicits -- and fair play to it, and so on.
12  803                  The point is they are very distinctly
13     different mediums, not to mention that one is a
14     listening and the other is a viewing.
15  804                  I will just say yes, I am pleased. 
16     As I said in my brief, they are doing what they can
17     with the money they have.  It is the death by a
18     thousand cuts.  It is going to happen.  There is going
19     to be a slow bleed to death.
20  805                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Bird.
21  806                  MR. BIRD:  Could I put it this way. 
22     we had of course, I don't remember how many years ago
23     but not that long ago, a local television service right
24     here in Sydney.  It has gone.  Frankly, I don't think
25     it has been much missed.


 1  807                  But I do --
 2  808                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is really what
 3     was at the root of my question.
 4  809                  MR. BIRD:  I beg your pardon?
 5  810                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is really what
 6     was at the root of my question.  It doesn't seem like
 7     people are missing it.
 8  811                  MR. BIRD:  Right.  But I think on the
 9     other hand if we lost our radio local broadcast, that
10     would be severely missed because this means a great
11     deal to this community.
12  812                  My concern is, among other things,
13     the way things are going we might just lose that as
14     well.  To me, that would be a tragedy.
15  813                  I guess what I am asking the CRTC to
16     do, if it is possible, if it is within your scope, to
17     plug the fact that we don't want any further erosion of
18     the CBC radio service.
19  814                  It is not a question of money.  It is
20     a question of losing it.
21  815                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Within the budget
22     that it has, do you think the CBC should be focusing on
23     its existing radio and television services?
24  816                  MR. BIRD:  It would be very selfish
25     of me to say so; but, yes.


 1  817                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Dr. MacNeil.
 2  818                  MS MacNEIL:  I wanted to make a
 3     comment that in my presentation I did not do very much
 4     distinguishing between radio and television.  I was
 5     trying to hold to the CBC mandate.
 6  819                  It is true -- and I made a point
 7     about the cultural interpretation and the fact that it
 8     would be desirable to have more --
 9  820                  We are doing a great job regionally,
10     I think, but it would be desirable as well to have
11     access to what others are doing in their regions. 
12     Sometimes for those who are able to hear radio in the
13     morning, you do get that -- by radio in the morning, I
14     mean between 9:00 and noon.  You do get a bit of that
15     switching across the country.
16  821                  But unless you can catch that and a
17     little bit in the afternoon, in the ordinary work day
18     unfortunately is when there is a lot of that; not so
19     much at all in the evenings, and certainly not much at
20     all in terms of television.
21  822                  If I were looking at television as it
22     now is, from the little I know of it -- and you must
23     remember that I am the one who said we couldn't see it
24     for years -- I don't think there is much to save there
25     any more, from my interest standpoint, mainly because


 1     of the commercialization.
 2  823                  I don't want it to stay that way.  I
 3     want it to improve.  I want it to be a channel for
 4     cultural presentations and for getting to know Canada
 5     better.  I don't want it to stay the way it is, nor do
 6     I want it to increase commercially.
 7  824                  I guess if we can't do it by paying
 8     for it directly or at least by not increasing
 9     commercialization any further, then perhaps we should
10     consider not doing it at all.  I am speaking of
11     television now.
12  825                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  You would not do
13     television at all?
14  826                  MS MacNEIL:  I am saying under those
15     conditions.  It is very irritating watching a lot of
16     television with commercials when you have just a few
17     hours in your day when you finally sit down to do that. 
18     It becomes an irritant.
19  827                  If it is not telling me about Canada
20     and the kinds of things that I really value in the
21     mandate, then I am not really very interested.  I can
22     turn just as easily to something else.
23  828                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is it your view
24     that you find the commercials themselves irritating or
25     you feel that the strive for commercial revenue is


 1     influencing the nature of the programming?
 2  829                  MS MacNEIL:  I would say yes to both
 3     of those.
 4  830                  MS CITRIGNO:  I just want to comment
 5     on your question about radio versus television.
 6  831                  For me personally, I prefer radio, so
 7     that is why I talked about it.  I think for people in
 8     communities, they might really appreciate having
 9     television closer to them, but it is not really an
10     option.
11  832                  I have lived in four different
12     Canadian communities and only one of them, Halifax, was
13     large enough to support local television.  I don't
14     think it would be fair to say that because people
15     didn't talk about local television here that means that
16     they don't miss it.  I believe to produce television
17     takes so much more money, to produce good television
18     versus good radio in terms of the equipment and the
19     qualified people in terms of technical positions
20     involved, that it is really difficult to support
21     community television.
22  833                  I think there probably could be a lot
23     of interest in it if the resources were available.
24  834                  All the questions we have had since
25     the presentations stopped have revolved around the


 1     question of funding, and I find it very difficult to
 2     address that.
 3  835                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  So do we.
 4  836                  MS CITRIGNO:  You mentioned my
 5     comments that I would like to see different
 6     programming.  Of course, to a certain extent it depends
 7     on funding.
 8  837                  It is really difficult to give
 9     positive suggestions about that.  I think more could be
10     done, but I think with the funding that is available --
11     you know, you don't even like to go down that road,
12     because you are not supporting the people who are
13     professionals and deserve to be reimbursed for their
14     professional capacity by implying that more could be
15     done with less.
16  838                  So I really don't know how to make
17     positive suggestions.  Just the thing about television,
18     I am sure more people would be interested in it if it
19     was available.  But with no money, it is even harder to
20     do than radio.
21  839                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I didn't mean to
22     imply by my question that I thought people didn't think
23     television was important.  It is just that I was struck
24     by more that radio was seen as being the means of being
25     the real local reflection rather than television.


 1  840                  Mr. MacKay and then Ms Cusack.
 2  841                  MR. MacKAY:  I might just mention
 3     when radio first came to CBC Sydney it was over a
 4     market area on Charlotte Street.  I think we did a
 5     reasonably good job there.
 6  842                  But then when television came, just
 7     prior to Canada's Centennial -- about 1964 or 1965, I
 8     think -- they built a beautiful building up on
 9     Alexander Street.  Television was the big thing then
10     and radio sort of took the background, in that when
11     they needed more space, they said:  "What can we get
12     rid of?"  The grand piano was the first thing that
13     went.
14  843                  When we did a lot of productions, we
15     had a 32-board mixer there, and we did a lot of things
16     of that nature.
17  844                  Now with television in the demise,
18     radio is coming back.  But I am afraid it will be a
19     long time coming back to the way it was.  Hopefully, it
20     will some day come back to its former glory.
21  845                  Thank you.
22  846                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms Cusack.
23  847                  MS CUSACK:  I think the reason why
24     you hear so much less about television around this
25     table is simply the fact I was just discussing with


 1     Theresa that we did lose our local CBC station in terms
 2     of any programming in 1990.  It had been considerably
 3     diluted throughout the 1980s, so that there is perhaps
 4     less hope that we would be able to ever regain that
 5     than there is that we can at least preserve and perhaps
 6     improve upon what we have in terms of local radio
 7     programming.  I think that is why you heard so much.
 8  848                  In terms of the importance of CBC
 9     television, in my presentation I referred to the
10     Friends of Canadian Broadcasting report that is on the
11     Internet in respect of Canadian local television
12     service.
13  849                  Although that report reflects on
14     service in the west, specifically Winnipeg, it contains
15     a wealth of statistical information and important
16     commentary on this issue.  Again, I would emphasize
17     that if you were to take a poll of the people who have
18     spoken this afternoon specifically about television,
19     there would be a great deal of interest in restoring
20     good quality local and regional programming and
21     enhancing it.
22  850                  I agree absolutely with Theresa
23     MacNeil about the folly of continuing to commercialize
24     CBC TV.  It distracts a person from the programming,
25     and it is much easier to flip off when you have to


 1     listen, or watch, endure, two or three or four or five
 2     or six commercials in a row in the midst of a program.
 3  851                  Of course, as you know, "This Hour
 4     Has 22 Minutes" plays upon that whole issue of the
 5     disruption of programming time by advertisements.
 6  852                  I think it is very important that we
 7     promote, that you promote to Paul Martin and whoever
 8     else might in future be the Minister, that it is
 9     extremely important that funding be restored.
10  853                  Whether the statistics I heard
11     earlier of $5 per capita, or another one I heard
12     whispered to me of $28 and something per capita
13     funding, that funding is obviously not adequate at this
14     time.  If the institution of the CBC, both television
15     and radio, is so important, then I think it is worth
16     considering an increase in that per capita funding.
17  854                  Thank you.
18  855                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Mr.
19     Peters.
20  856                  MR. PETERS:  You are asking about
21     radio and TV.  I would like to mention that in this
22     area we are incredibly lucky to have Ian MacNeil -- he
23     was here; he just left -- as our "Morning Show" host
24     and Kostas Salibrasos at the noon hour and the "Phone
25     In" from 1:00 to 2:00.  It is incredible how current


 1     the subjects are on those programs and how enlightening
 2     they are.
 3  857                  To address the funding problem, I
 4     would not mind seeing less money spent on TV and more
 5     on radio.  At least you can listen to radio while you
 6     work; but if you have to watch TV, you have to sit
 7     there and do nothing.
 8  858                  Thank you.
 9  859                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, sir.
10  860                  MR. GAUDET:  It is in reference to
11     Mr. Langford's question regarding funding and how the
12     CRTC is going to handle situations.  Of course, the
13     name Paul Martin was brought up, and so on.
14  861                  Without getting too political about
15     it, Theresa MacNeill also mentioned that in 1991 in the
16     Parliamentary Act, in order for them to lay down a
17     certain mandate -- I should not say a mandate, but
18     certain criteria that went down.  Does that not in turn
19     also mean that the CBC has to mandate certain funds to
20     keep up certain Canadian content rulings?
21  862                  I know this is a question.
22  863                  I really do think the funds are
23     there, and I am sure it is purely political.  I want to
24     throw this back to you.
25  864                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I will do my


 1     best, and I am certainly glad we have a lawyer with us.
 2  865                  The problem --
 3  866                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  He is a lawyer too,
 4     by the way.
 5  867                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I am a
 6     recovering lawyer.
 7  868                  One of the problems when you are
 8     dealing with documents like the Broadcasting Act is
 9     that the words in them are open to a myriad of
10     interpretations.  Ms MacNeil's definition of distinctly
11     Canadian and serving the mandate laid out there may
12     differ very much from the Finance Department's, and yet
13     both may be valid interpretations.  We are getting into
14     some areas that are open to a good deal of differing
15     views and even some subjective viewing.
16  869                  So it does become very, very
17     difficult for the CRTC, for the 12 of us, to sit and
18     say:  "Those words in that statute mean this and only
19     this, and therefore they require this many dollars."
20  870                  That is a road down which even J.J.
21     Robinette in the height of his powers could not have
22     taken us.  That is a tough interpretation to make of a
23     statute like that.
24  871                  I can understand the frustration
25     behind your question, but I think it probably will


 1     remain a frustration.  I don't think that anyone in
 2     this room, and perhaps even anyone in the country could
 3     make that fine an interpretation of that piece of
 4     legislation and costing that would then go along with
 5     it.
 6  872                  MR. GAUDET:  Just a quick follow-up. 
 7     Can we rely on you people, your particular commission,
 8     the CRTC, to push on our behalf?
 9  873                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  We can't come
10     here as your advocates, but we have gone to the trouble
11     of coming here.  That must tell you something.  We are
12     here to listen to you, and we are here to bring back
13     your message, to save you the expense of going to
14     Ottawa.
15  874                  I think it is more fiscally
16     responsible for two of us to come to you than all of
17     you to come to us.
18  875                  So yes, we are here.  We are here to
19     listen to you, and we intend to bring your messages
20     back.  That is why we came.
21  876                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms Verrill and then
22     Mr. MacDonald.
23  877                  MS VERRILL:  I want to talk about
24     television and the role that the regional TV broadcast
25     centre plays in Halifax.


 1  878                  I think if those hearings had been
 2     there, you would have heard a lot more bout the role
 3     that CBC television plays and its importance to that
 4     community.
 5  879                  Maybe one of the reasons why it is
 6     also not talked about so much here is that sometimes I
 7     think it is hard to really know exactly all the things
 8     that CBC TV does that don't really show up as programs
 9     on air.
10  880                  Because of the growing film industry
11     which is based there, the regional office of CBC is a
12     fairly important part of that ongoing community of work
13     that is being developed.  I just wanted to put in a
14     little plug in defence of that office.
15  881                  The fear is that the way things are
16     going, if cuts come, it will be the regions that will
17     get it and primarily in television.  So I don't think
18     that is a good idea.
19  882                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. MacDonald.
20  883                  MR. MacDONALD:  Thank you.  My
21     remarks will dovetail quite nicely into your past
22     remarks.
23  884                  When we talk about CBC television in
24     Nova Scotia, I think there is somewhat of a conflict
25     because the only place that does the programming is in


 1     Halifax, and it is getting to the point where about 50
 2     per cent of the Nova Scotia population is in metro
 3     Halifax.  What I see as the conflict is the mission to
 4     serve that great majority of your audience as opposed
 5     to the mission to go out into the hinterlands, if you
 6     want to call it.  I guess that brings us to a real
 7     appreciation of having CBC radio here and the abilities
 8     to work.
 9  885                  I don't know how you resolve that
10     short of more resources.  On the television point of
11     view, I think the CBC supper news hour is very well
12     watched, even here in Cape Breton.  It is hour-long as
13     opposed to half an hour for the other competitors, and
14     it seems to be much more -- I don't know if it is
15     public broadcasting oriented.
16  886                  I think there is a bias towards
17     Halifax.  I will cite an example.  There is a major
18     employer in rural Cape Breton that in December of 1994
19     announced a world-class construction project; the
20     largest investment ever in Nova Scotia, $750 million,
21     and at the time probably the biggest construction
22     project in Canada.  I just happened to be in my
23     apartment looking at the CBC news, and it was the third
24     item on the news out of Halifax.
25  887                  The impact of that, I have kind of


 1     never quite forgotten: whoever decides what gets on the
 2     news and what number it is.  That was a huge, huge
 3     story for us in rural Nova Scotia, in rural Cape Breton
 4     at least.  There is a conflict there, and I don't know
 5     how you resolve it short of more resources.
 6  888                  I think the message that the CRTC
 7     brings back is that when you have world-class
 8     organizations, especially on the radio side, work on
 9     it, build on it and make it better.
10  889                  Thank you.
11  890                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
12     MacDonald.
13  891                  I am going to turn to the CBC to
14     respond to all the comments they have heard here
15     through the day, but I want to make a final comment on
16     this funding issue.
17  892                  Mr. Mattocks and the CBC people here
18     have certainly heard the concerns about funding and can
19     echo those pleas back to Ottawa, and so can we.  But I
20     guess the struggle for us from a regulatory point of
21     view, and for the CBC folks from an operational point
22     of view, is:  Given that that is the budget we have,
23     how do we best manage that allocation to serve the
24     needs of the people of Canada, to serve the needs that
25     are expressed here today for local programming in radio


 1     and for more French programming that reflects this
 2     region, this community, better?
 3  893                  That is what we are wrestling with,
 4     it seems to me.
 6  894                  MS MITTON:  Thank you.  I am Susan
 7     Mitton.  I am the Regional Director of radio, and I
 8     have a couple of general comments before I wade back
 9     into the constellation of services, because really it
10     is the future you folks are trying to struggle with. 
11     We are too, and I think we can all learn from each
12     other in this.
13  895                  I would like to thank the CRTC for
14     making the wise decision to come to Sydney.  We were
15     part of the group that first thought "too bad they
16     aren't going to come to Halifax".  I now see the wisdom
17     of that.  this is an area of the country that we don't
18     hear enough from in the national scope, in my view.  We
19     do regionally, we do locally; but I think it is
20     wonderful that you have made the effort to visit
21     communities that often are not heard from.  I
22     appreciate that very much.
23  896                  We have seen this exercise this
24     afternoon, as we will for the next three days in the
25     Maritimes, as a real privilege.  For us, this is a


 1     massive focus group on what our listeners and viewers
 2     really think of us, and it is on somebody else's hook. 
 3     So we just love it.
 4  897                  This gives us feedback that is
 5     golden.  It is wonderful to hear that we are doing some
 6     things right.  We are struggling and doing our best;
 7     we've all got that right.  But also the criticisms that
 8     we have heard today, we are not going to answer every
 9     single one of them, but we will be taking these
10     concerns back and actually in some format trying at a
11     later date to feed back on some of the points to the
12     CRTC.
13  898                  We have taken note of people's names,
14     so if we can get back to you on specific questions you
15     have asked or raised, or complaints you have had, we
16     are going to try to do that.
17  899                  I do want to tell you, Mr. Langford,
18     that we do in fact charge rent.  It is not a freebie
19     entirely.  It is with what they can bear.  So we are
20     putting that into regional programming.
21  900                  That is one point I wanted to
22     mention.
23  901                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You might
24     want to think of lowering it.  These people are doing
25     good work.


 1  902                  MS MITTON:  We will consider it.
 2  903                  The transmission issue I am not going
 3     to duck, because it is a huge one here in Cape Breton. 
 4     But Fred Mattocks, who is the Director of Television,
 5     ironically was ten years ago one of the managers left
 6     in the Sydney operation when it was both radio and TV. 
 7     He has actually got a tech background and better to
 8     answer that question.
 9  904                  I think it is worth a few comments,
10     because it was an issue that was certainly raised
11     around here.
12  905                  Dr. MacNeil mentioned the morale
13     issue.  I have to say that these hearings for the
14     people at the CBC -- and there are many colleagues
15     here, both from CEP, CMG.  Ian MacNeil just left and
16     John Chessil is in fact the non-manager leader as such
17     of the Sydney station and does an incredible job.
18  906                  We are all here for keen interest in
19     hearing what you have to say.
20  907                  There were issues raised around why
21     do we have the "Mainstreets" across the country all
22     sounding the same; why don't you have more open book
23     management in an accounting system.
24  908                  In fact, a lot of those things are
25     being looked at and evolving, and the open accounting


 1     system under an acronym called SAP is coming.  It is
 2     partly driven by the year 2000 and our arcane finance
 3     systems are being updated.
 4  909                  There are a lot of operational issues
 5     that were raised today, and I don't dismiss them.  We
 6     will answer them.  But they are a bit of housekeeping.
 7  910                  What I see as the challenge forward
 8     is an issue that was raised towards the end of the
 9     discussion.  It has to do with constellation of
10     services.
11  911                  I don't pretend to have all the
12     answers here, but I wanted to just lay something on the
13     table because it is important to the future.
14  912                  What I understand the CBC is
15     struggling with is a situation where the youth -- and I
16     think the CKDU lady, and I apologize for not having my
17     list here -- mentioned that a lot of us are grey-haired
18     around here.
19  913                  It used to be in radio that when you
20     turned 30 you got smart and found the signal.  But I
21     have kids, and those of you who do will appreciate that
22     that is not necessarily going to happen, for a bunch of
23     reasons.  New technology in the year 2000 is coming on
24     faster than we can possibly imagine.
25  914                  So aside from the web and the use of


 1     Internet which is growing, a challenge to us is saying: 
 2     We have the mandate and spoken word as to what the CBC
 3     as a public broadcaster should be doing.  How best do
 4     we do that?
 5  915                  What we have envisaged is in fact a
 6     constellation of services.  In radio terms, it means
 7     Radio One, which is basically an information service;
 8     Radio Two, which is basically a classical service.
 9  916                  Right now, there is a bit of a
10     hodge-podge, because under our mandate we are to serve
11     all canadians.  So at night you get something like
12     Brave New Waves, which drives some people round the
13     bend.  So we are thinking of ways of extracting that
14     and building a service for perhaps youth, which are now
15     not being served.  And it is our mandate to serve all
16     Canadians.
17  917                  Youth is not being served.  So you
18     will start hearing something about a Radio Three.
19  918                  With the web, what we are doing --
20     and we are doing this in Halifax now.  It is automated,
21     so that we take a newscast and post it directly to the
22     web.  We have through radio, television, French and
23     English, an incredible mass of information that is
24     being put and worked on every day across this country. 
25     We are trying to see if we can value add to that by


 1     making it available on other services that other parts
 2     of the population either want to use, do use or will
 3     use.
 4  919                  We have Radio One, radio two routed
 5     in the regions, and this is right in our internal
 6     vision and mandate, and part of a constellation of
 7     services.  We currently have Galaxy.  We are building
 8     the web on a daily basis.  We are thinking of other
 9     services.
10  920                  In television -- and Fred can talk a
11     bit to this -- the same kind of thing is happening.
12  921                  It is going to be a learning curve,
13     and there are concerns about it.  What are you
14     stripping to do this?  How are you going to grow this?
15  922                  Our problem and our challenge is:  If
16     we don't, we're dead.  That is what we feel; that we
17     will stop and not grow and not bring new Canadians on
18     or young Canadians, or enough different points of view
19     in a user-friendly environment with all different
20     mediums.
21  923                  I am speaking too quickly, I know,
22     but I am passionate about it, and struggling with it at
23     the same time, as I think we all are.
24  924                  I will stop my comments there. 
25     Perhaps, Fred, you can do the transmission dance and


 1     also pick up on the constellation a bit.
 2  925                  MR. MATTOCKS:  The transmission
 3     problem in Cape Breton is similar to the transmission
 4     problem in a number of parts of the country.  It is
 5     particularly bad here, because people value the service
 6     so highly.
 7  926                  It is rooted in basic physics. 
 8     That's the problem.  CBC has been struggling with it
 9     for years.  CBC is restricted by policy from spending
10     money on areas which are deemed served, which means
11     that they have a signal.  And that results in some
12     silly, actually, situations.
13  927                  We have a classic in Cumberland
14     County in Nova Scotia where people don't receive an off
15     the air signal from CBC Halifax or CBC Nova Scotia. 
16     They receive one from PEI and New Brunswick.  As a
17     result, they don't get their own political news, and so
18     on.
19  928                  We seem to be powerless as a company
20     to do anything about it directly.  I am happy to report
21     in Cumberland County we have found an indirect solution
22     with the participation of the local cable company.
23  929                  Here in Cape Breton, in the time I
24     was here, we were putting drop-in transmitters that Ray
25     referred to in a number of areas.  But the terrain is


 1     such that you can put a transmitter in, as we did in
 2     Middle River, and you can drive two miles outside of
 3     town and you can find a person in a house who does not
 4     get the signal.
 5  930                  I don't know what the solution is.  I
 6     really would like to espouse your view of the world,
 7     Mr. Papazian, that everybody should have the signal,
 8     because I agree with you.  The question is:  At what
 9     price can we do that?  Right now the technology is not
10     in a place where we can do it cost-effectively.
11  931                  Maybe I could talk about television
12     for a minute.
13  932                  I dreaded this hearing, for just the
14     reason that I figured we would have a whole bunch of
15     people who loved radio and could not care less if there
16     was CBC television or saw television as some sort of a
17     parasite threatening radio's existence.  That seems to
18     be the shape of the discussion whenever we get people
19     to talk about the CBC.  I think that is unfortunate,
20     because they are two very different beasts.  They have
21     the same mandate; they have the same service goals. 
22     But they operate in different ways; they have different
23     economies.
24  933                  In fact, the people who watch and use
25     them watch them and use them in different ways.


 1  934                  If you look, as we have done, at
 2     television and radio users and look at how many people
 3     who listen to "Information Morning" watch the supper
 4     hour news.  What you find is that the duplication
 5     between those two audiences is very low.  It is less
 6     than 25 per cent.
 7  935                  There is a fundamental message there: 
 8     People who like radio like radio; people who like
 9     television like television.
10  936                  Our television service in this region
11     is actually, I think, one of the most successful in the
12     country.  We have roughly 100,000 Nova Scotians
13     watching our provincial "Supper Hour", and that
14     includes a significant number of Cape Bretoners.
15  937                  When the Cape Breton "Supper Hour"
16     was cancelled in 1990 due to the cuts, that was a
17     tragedy.  It was a tragedy for this community, and I
18     agree with that.  The fact is that the audiences did
19     not dip appreciably.
20  938                  I think when people say it was not
21     missed, I disagree with that; I think it was missed. 
22     but the fact is that the service was still there.
23  939                  We just did a survey of our content
24     on our news program, and over 25 per cent of the news
25     material in the last year comes from Cape Breton, from


 1     our Cape Breton bureau here.
 2  940                  We are doing what we can do in terms
 3     of programming to reflect this island and its events
 4     and its stories.
 5  941                  When "Land and Sea" was on the air,
 6     we had over 100,000 Maritimers watching it every week. 
 7     It is not on the air, predictably, at this point; but
 8     it still lives on, and when it does, we get lots of
 9     audience response to it as well.
10  942                  In terms of the cultural story,
11     everybody has talked about our success story in
12     bringing our performers to the national stage, which we
13     are very proud of.  That actually all started
14     regionally.  The ECMA started out as a regional
15     project, for instance, not a national one.  We used to
16     have a saying that we didn't know that we had a program
17     concept just right until the network had turned it down
18     twice, because the third time they picked it up.  That
19     seemed to be the history.
20  943                  All I can say about television is
21     that it is a different beast than radio.  We are
22     working very hard at it.  We are trying to find ways to
23     minimize the impacts of our budget realities by things
24     like partnerships with Anne's group and her colleagues,
25     with Visual Artists, with other unconventional


 1     partnerships.
 2  944                  The Art Spots project that the arts
 3     person talked about is a partnership of the Canada
 4     Council for the Arts, for instance, which is a new
 5     thing for us.
 6  945                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Dr. MacNeil, I am
 7     mindful in acknowledging your hand that some of us have
 8     until 6 o'clock to come back here.
 9  946                  MS MacNEIL:  I just want to ask one
10     question about how you would answer David Colville's
11     question about television.  I am not very happy about
12     the way I handled it, but I am concerned about the
13     commercialization being an anathema.
14  947                  If you would touch on that for a
15     moment, I would appreciate it.
16  948                  Thank you, Mr. Chair.
17  949                  MR. MATTOCKS:  I understand the
18     concern absolutely.  It is one that we live with as
19     well, both as an organization which, in terms of its
20     journalistic programming, prides our independence and
21     prides both journalistic policy, which is one of the
22     strongest and best defined in the world in terms of
23     broadcasters, in terms of our mandate and the
24     Broadcasting Act which sets it up; but also in terms of
25     the kinds of programs that we provide.


 1  950                  It is a fact that an astonishing
 2     amount of our discretionary money in television comes
 3     from commercial revenue.  It is over 50 per cent.
 4  951                  Having said that, I think that our
 5     real struggle in terms of finding a place in Canadians'
 6     homes with our television services is a struggle for
 7     relevance.  The jargon for this discussion is the PBS
 8     north argument.
 9  952                  We believe that if we don't appear on
10     a regular basis in the lives of a significant number of
11     Canadians, then Canadians won't be willing to pay for
12     us any more.  So how do you do that becomes the
13     conundrum.
14  953                  Commercials are a fact of life in
15     that what they do for us at this point in time is they
16     enable us to maintain a level of production in
17     programming.
18  954                  I don't think -- as a matter of fact,
19     I am pretty sure that fundamental decisions that are
20     driven at the network about audience and program
21     selection for audience are not driven as much by
22     commercial revenue, although that is a factor, as by
23     the issue of:  How many Canadians are watching us this
24     week?
25  955                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very


 1     much.
 2  956                  I want to thank all of you who are
 3     here and, I guess through the transcript, those who
 4     have left.  I think we have had an excellent afternoon
 5     and a lot of very thoughtful presentations.  All of the
 6     presentations were very thoughtful and helpful to us in
 7     our deliberations and I am sure the CBC in
 8     understanding better what Canadians are expecting from
 9     the service.
10  957                  We will adjourn now.  Some of us will
11     try to grab a quick bite to eat and come back at 6
12     o'clock to hear some more views.
13     --- Recess at 1715 / Suspension à 1715
14     --- Upon resuming at 1815 / Reprise à 1815
15  958                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good evening,
16     ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to this public
17     consultation on the CBC.
18  959                  My name is David Colville and I am
19     the Vice-Chair of the CRTC Telecommunications Division. 
20     With me today is my fellow Commissioner, Stuart
21     Langford.
22  960                  We are here to gather your views and
23     comments on CBC radio and television.  We want to know,
24     in your opinion, how the Canadian Broadcasting
25     Corporation should fulfil its role in the coming years.


 1  961                  The CBC is a national public service
 2     broadcasting in English as well as in French.  It plays
 3     an important role in the Canadian broadcasting system. 
 4     Today, many elements are constantly being added to the
 5     broadcasting system as new technologies multiply,
 6     converge, open up new horizons, and increasingly offer
 7     new services.
 8  962                  In this context, we want to know your
 9     needs and expectations as viewers and listeners of the
10     CBC.
11  963                  Given that, it is very important that
12     the Commission hears what you have to say.  We must not
13     lose sight of the fact that the CRTC itself is a public
14     institution that serves Canadian citizens, and in this
15     capacity we are responsible to you.
16  964                  This is why my fellow Commissioners
17     and myself find it vital to come and meet with you to
18     discuss these issues and why we are holding this series
19     of regional consultations from one end of the country
20     to the other, in 11 Canadian cities, from March 9th to
21     the 18th.
22  965                  These consultations are designed to
23     give you a chance to express your opinion on the CBC's
24     role, the programming it offers, and the direction it
25     should take at the national, regional and local levels. 


 1     Through these consultations, we hope to enter into an
 2     open dialogue with you and to hear your concerns.
 3  966                  Your comments will form part of the
 4     public record, which will be added to the record of the
 5     public hearing on the CBC's licence renewal that will
 6     begin in Hull next May 25th.  At that hearing the
 7     Commission will examine the CBC's application for the
 8     renewal of its licences, including radio, television
 9     and its specialty services Newsworld and Réseau de
10     l'information.
11  967                  You can also take part in that public
12     hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 
13     If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the
14     specific licence renewals being examined when you file
15     your comments.
16  968                  Now I would like to come back to
17     today's consultations.
18  969                  Allow me to introduce the staff who
19     will be assisting us today:  Mr. Alastair Stewart, our
20     legal counsel; and Mr. Brien Rodger, the Director of
21     our Halifax Regional Office.
22  970                  Please feel free to call on them with
23     any questions you might have about the process today.
24  971                  So that you will all have an
25     opportunity to speak, we ask that you please limit your


 1     presentation to ten minutes.  As these consultations
 2     are a forum designed especially for you, and we want to
 3     listen to as many participants as possible --
 4  972                  My notes say we will not ask you any
 5     questions, but I just want to say that we are not here
 6     to embarrass anybody but we may have a few questions of
 7     clarification and may want to enter into a discussion
 8     later on, as we did this afternoon.  We gave an
 9     opportunity for everybody to make their presentation,
10     and after everyone was heard from we opened it up to a
11     bit of a discussion around some of the issues at the
12     end.
13  973                  If you want to do that, you are
14     certainly welcome to stay.  If not, we will thank you
15     for your presentation in any event.
16  974                  At the end of the session,
17     representatives from the local CBC stations will have a
18     chance to offer their views and comments on what they
19     have heard through the day.
20  975                  Before I start, I will turn it over
21     to Mr. Stewart to go over some of the housekeeping
22     matters, and then we will turn to our first presenter.
23                                                        1820
24  976                  MR. STEWART:  Thank you very much,
25     Commissioner Colville.


 1  977                  I will invite each person who is
 2     registered to make his or her presentation in the order
 3     of the list that has been established.  I would ask you
 4     to press the white button in front of the microphone so
 5     that your comments may be transcribed and form part of
 6     the public record.
 7  978                  Once you are finished your
 8     presentation, would you be good enough to press the
 9     white again to turn the system off.
10  979                  For those who need translation, there
11     are headsets available from the gentleman to my left.
12  980                  Those are all of the housekeeping
13     items I wish to bring to your attention.
14  981                  With your permission, Commissioner
15     Colville, I will ask the first presenter to come
16     forward to give his presentation.
17  982                  That is Mr. James St. Clair.
19  983                  MR. ST. CLAIR:  Ladies and gentlemen: 
20     Tha mir gle thollite gu faicainn thu (I am pleased to
21     see you all).  Tha mi a breann Gaidlig beagan (I am
22     speaking a little gaelic).  Ceud mile failte (100,000
23     welcomes).  Ciamur tha thu a nochd? (How are you
24     tonight?)
25  984                  CRTC -- Celtic Tracking Radio


 1     Corporation, are you here anywhere?
 2  985                  Well, gentlemen --
 3  986                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I got the part
 4     about 100,000 welcomes.
 5  987                  MR. ST. CLAIR:  If you were to be
 6     here tomorrow morning and things were normal, I would
 7     have an opportunity, as a freelance broadcaster and
 8     writer, to share with you a bit more of the culture and
 9     heritage of Cape Breton Island.
10  988                  Cape Breton is a very beautiful
11     island.
12  989                  Gallia est omnis divisa in partes
13     tres.  As you may recall from your grade 10 or 11
14     Latin, all of Gaul is divided into three parts.
15  990                  Insula Cape Bretonea omnis in partes
16     octo; not four, not five, not six, not seven, but at
17     least eight listening areas.  And yet this island is
18     only a little over 100 miles long and, at the most, if
19     we include Port Hood Island and Scaterie, 53 and a half
20     miles wide.
21  991                  I come particularly with a brief from
22     the Inverness County Council of the Arts.
23  992                  Inverness County is that portion of
24     this island known as "on the other side of the
25     mountain".  We are the people who travel to hearings. 


 1     Some of us, Mr. MacNeil and I, travel to work on the
 2     CBC over mountains and through valleys.  We have
 3     learned to be extremely dexterous.  When I leave home
 4     in Mull River in the morning to come to Sydney, after
 5     having gotten the weather report from Mr. MacNeil and
 6     the road report, I am able to hear CBC Moncton.  And
 7     then after I have gone five miles, I hear CBC Halifax
 8     through a transmitter in Mulgrave across the causeway. 
 9     Once I reach Sky Glen, I am able to hear no CBC at all,
10     except what resounds in my head.
11  993                  But then once I reach Whycocomagh, I
12     am happy to say that well at least I am able to hear
13     CBC Radio One upon occasion.
14  994                  In Mull River where I live, on the
15     west side of the island, you will note that I say I
16     cannot get CBC AM.  I get CBC Radio One very well, and
17     on a Saturday afternoon, if I stand on my head in the
18     attic and tip my brand new radio upside down and point
19     the aerial in the direction of Edinburgh, Scotland, I
20     may get almost all of Il Trovatore, although last
21     Saturday afternoon I lost it at the crucial time of the
22     Anvil Chorus, so I have no idea how the drama
23     concluded.
24  995                  I am hoping that maybe next
25     Saturday -- oh, no, it isn't a continuing series, is


 1     it.
 2  996                  Gentlemen, we are submitting on
 3     behalf of the Inverness County Council of the Arts a
 4     report with the hope that it will encourage you to
 5     examine the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation's
 6     transmittal service on this island.
 7  997                  As the national radio broadcaster,
 8     CBC has a mandate to ensure that radio and television
 9     reception is of good quality in rural areas.  In your
10     packet, we have also included a document relating to
11     rural culture and technology, which may be of some
12     interest to you.
13  998                  In Inverness County, we consider CBC
14     broadcasting to be our lifeline.  We have been hungry
15     for the last two and a half weeks, emaciated almost, as
16     we have had to listen to such indignities as -- well, I
17     won't name those on the mainland.
18  999                  This is our lifeline to cultural
19     activity within our county and beyond, but we find that
20     this lifeline is not available in many of our homes:
21     Gaelic speaking, French speaking, English speaking,
22     Dutch speaking, Inverness County speaking -- whatever
23     the language.
24  1000                 I have to point out that in rural
25     areas such as ours special conditions do exist which


 1     limit our exposure to cultural activities.  We are
 2     isolated due to distance from major centres of
 3     activity, poor weather conditions, and the inevitable
 4     travel costs that must be incurred to take us to
 5     cultural events.  And yet somehow or other we have been
 6     able to spawn things such as an Inverness County
 7     Council of the Arts, the Rankins, Buddy McMaster,
 8     Natalie, an extraordinarily fine singing group from
 9     Cheticamp, of young singers that are going around the
10     world.
11  1001                 We feel that we have something very
12     special in our soil.
13  1002                 My Livingston ancestors, when they
14     came from Scotland, settled in Inverness County because
15     they felt the ground there had the magic that they
16     hadn't known since they left Scotland.  And they stayed
17     there.
18  1003                 Some people think that is why they
19     were such good step dancers; there was electricity in
20     the ground.
21  1004                 We find that CBC broadcasting
22     alleviates our isolation.  We have a rich cultural
23     community.  A lot of CBC programming includes
24     interviews and performances by our own local artists. 
25     Oftentimes, we can't hear them.


 1  1005                 My own relatives and friends whose
 2     family and ancestors and communities are oftentimes the
 3     subjects of my own CBC broadcasts over the last two
 4     decades can hear only what is said about their people
 5     through tape.
 6  1006                 The audiovisual window to the world
 7     which we perceive CBC programming to be is crucial in
 8     the continuing cultural development of our county, and
 9     I have to say that it is a primary need in these very
10     difficult and demanding economic times on this island. 
11     We have no other major link connecting us than CBC.
12  1007                 We feel we need to hear it.
13  1008                 Given the findings in our report, CBC
14     is failing to fulfil its role on a regional level.  It
15     is fine for the people who live in Sydney and even fine
16     for those who live near Blackett's Lake. but reception
17     is poor and unreliable in most of our communities on
18     the other side of the island.
19  1009                 So we say the CBC is not currently
20     providing the service that we so desperately depend
21     upon.  We hope that in the new millennium transmission
22     can be improved.
23  1010                 We have done a very exhaustive study
24     of communities in our county, from Cape North to the
25     Canso Causeway.  I will not go over these.  They are


 1     printed out for you.  You can see them, take them where
 2     you want.
 3  1011                 It is interesting to note that at
 4     Mabou Coal Mines, the home of much Cape Breton music,
 5     they cannot get, cannot get, cannot get, cannot get,
 6     cannot get:  AM, FM, Cheticamp, English, French
 7     television.
 8  1012                 In Cheticamp, where one would expect
 9     that French radio would be available, it is very poor. 
10     In Cheticamp, French television can be achieved very
11     well with cable.  AM is almost non-existent.  And when
12     you go to the northern part of our county, to Meat
13     Cove, three-quarters of the way down can't get good,
14     can't get good, can't get, can't get.
15  1013                 I take these findings very seriously. 
16     As a Council of the Arts, we take them very seriously. 
17     We have consulted with our constituency, gathered the
18     information and we wish to share it with you.
19  1014                 Some specific comments which may be
20     of interest.
21  1015                 FM radio, said one person, is the
22     only CBC station received.  It can be received only
23     upstairs.  FM radio is the only CBC station received,
24     and it can only be received in certain rooms -- a
25     little bit like the Metropolitan for me.


 1  1016                 The last comment:  many people want
 2     to listen to CBC but don't, because they do not get the
 3     reception.
 4  1017                 I think it is time that reception
 5     ceases to be a matter of political clout. We view the
 6     CBC as a right, as an asset, and indeed we see CBC as a
 7     treasure trove that we should not be deprived of.
 8  1018                 Thank you very much.  I would be
 9     pleased to respond if there are any questions after we
10     are through this evening.
11  1019                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Just a quick
12     question right now, Mr. St. Clair.
13  1020                 Can I ask how you conducted this
14     survey?
15  1021                 MR. ST. CLAIR:  We used the
16     telephone, and we consulted with at least three people
17     in each of these communities.  We tried to sample the
18     various communities.
19  1022                 Some people we called were people we
20     really didn't know.  In other cases, we called people
21     whom we knew were CBC proponents.
22  1023                 It is fairly reliable.
23  1024                 I just came from Mulgrave, on the
24     other side of the causeway, and at a break in the
25     meeting I was at this morning I asked the people from


 1     the Strait area:  Would they like to have CBC Sydney?
 2  1025                 I talked to six people out of a group
 3     of 15.  Five of them said yes, and one them said she
 4     wasn't sure because she had never heard CBC Sydney.
 5  1026                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  It was a telephone
 6     survey.
 7  1027                 MR. ST. CLAIR:  A telephone survey.
 8  1028                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Of at least three
 9     people in each community.
10  1029                 MR. ST. CLAIR:  At least three people
11     in each community.
12  1030                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
13                                                        1830
14  1031                 MR. STEWART:  I would now like to
15     invite Mr. Alan Leith.
17  1032                 MR. LEITH:  Jim, just one comment on
18     something you said.  Even here in Sydney, CBC FM is
19     subject to multi path distortion of a horrendous nature
20     when you are below the line of Hardwood Hill.
21  1033                 That is something that bothers me,
22     especially when I am driving along Kings Road.
23  1034                 Many of the people who speak to this
24     Commission over the next few weeks will begin their
25     comments with "I grew up listening to the CBC", and I


 1     won't disappoint, obviously.  However, unlike many of
 2     them, my association with broadcasting has been
 3     somewhat closer to the bone.
 4  1035                 Although I have never worked for the
 5     CBC, I had a career in private broadcasting and in
 6     broadcast education that began in earnest when I was 16
 7     years old and lasted until I was in my early forties. 
 8     I have always liked the CBC, and I was an avid listener
 9     at a very early age.  I was fascinated by the radio
10     drama and the incredible amount of information that the
11     CBC offered its listeners.
12  1036                 The news programs were always
13     in-depth, the announcers crisp and articulate; and best
14     of all, they seemed to know what they were talking
15     about.  What the CBC was for me, however, is not what
16     it is today.
17  1037                 The current labour situation aside,
18     the standards on CBC radio have gone downhill over the
19     last several years.  There is no longer any real
20     standardization, and the quality of the announcers'
21     voices, for instance, has diminished to the point where
22     there are several who make me cringe when I hear them.
23  1038                 I guess one of the things that I have
24     always thought was important was that CBC announcers
25     were well trained, and they used a style and


 1     pronunciation guide that was followed by everyone.  Not
 2     any more.
 3  1039                 A late uncle, who was a senior CBC
 4     announcer in Montreal for many years, instilled in me a
 5     certain desire to get it right, and I have always tried
 6     to find the accepted and best pronunciation.
 7  1040                 On a recent national broadcast I
 8     heard a local CBC reporter refer to "Judique", and
 9     there are local announcers who insist that "Bas d'Or"
10     is another name for "Bras d'Or", or that all numbers
11     from 13 to 19 are "thirdeen" to "ninedeen".
12  1041                 It is particularly annoying for me,
13     for instance, to hear while I am shaving at 7 o'clock
14     in the morning that it is "sevendeen" minutes after
15     seven.
16  1042                 There are examples of reporters in
17     various parts of the world who, judging from the way
18     they pronounce the name of the city they are in, really
19     have no idea where they are.  There are also hundreds
20     of examples of poor grammar usage, but I won't get into
21     that.
22  1043                 Suffice to say that CBC has changed
23     direction in hiring announcers, reporters and
24     commentators.  The newest staffer's knowledge of the
25     language is not at all up to par; and worse, there is


 1     no one checking what is going on the air before it gets
 2     there.
 3  1044                 What really concerns me, however, is
 4     the direction CBC radio will take in the 21st century. 
 5     Nothing is what it was, and the future of public
 6     broadcasting in this country is at stake in view of the
 7     government's attitude toward a medium that dares to
 8     take it to task, constantly trying to muzzle those who
 9     would criticize it.
10  1045                 I for one feel the public broadcaster
11     must allow the nation's citizens and its own staff the
12     right to speak freely.
13  1046                 Over the past decade private radio in
14     Canada has been drummed down to the point that the only
15     good radio left is in the major centres, where there is
16     serious competition.  We here in Cape Breton have been
17     stripped of local radio programming of any real value,
18     with the takeover of the three private radio stations
19     by the same management company.  Maritime Broadcasting
20     owns and operates CJCB-AM, CKPE-FM and has a role in
21     programming and management of CHER-AM.
22  1047                 Since July 1998, industrial Cape
23     Breton's radio listeners of the three private stations
24     have been subject to programming by a person or persons
25     who choose to ignore the unique talents and music of


 1     most of the local artists, preferring to block their
 2     music into two single Sunday shows.  One is heard on
 3     CHER on Sunday mornings, the other on Sunday evenings
 4     on CJCB-AM.  Both are at inconvenient times for many
 5     listeners.
 6  1048                 To the best of my knowledge, CHER
 7     plays absolutely no other Cape Breton music during the
 8     week.  CKPE-FM programs only the hits.
 9  1049                 Because it is unlikely the CRTC will
10     ever do anything to change this situation, I believe it
11     must become the CBC's responsibility to provide to Cape
12     Bretoners, as well as other local listening audiences
13     across the country, the type of programming that they
14     have lost.
15  1050                 The CBC can help to preserve and
16     promote, for instance, Cape Breton's unique music.  It
17     won't come from local private stations with the sale of
18     those stations to companies whose only goal is to make
19     money providing the absolute minimum of decent
20     programming.
21  1051                 I don't for one minute know how the
22     CBC can overcome the problems it has with the unions
23     which, in my humble opinion, actually run the
24     corporation.  I also believe the CBC is way too top
25     heavy, with administrators who do not understand what


 1     broadcasting is all about.
 2  1052                 I would suggest that the future of
 3     the CBC depends on being able to provide responsible
 4     and informative programming at a cost effective price. 
 5     We didn't need a bunch of radio reporters at the East
 6     Coast Music Awards.  We don't need a provincial CBC and
 7     a local CBC reporter covering the same local stories,
 8     and we don't need a national, a regional and a local
 9     reporter covering major stories like DEVCO or SYSCO.
10  1053                 One local reporter filing to the
11     national news desk, a second by the same reporter for
12     the regional desk, and a third report for the local
13     station is really all that is needed.  Manpower can be
14     cut dramatically with a little extra effort on one
15     person's part.
16  1054                 With changing technology and the
17     probable demise of AM and FM broadcasting in favour of
18     digital radio transmission and reception in the near
19     future, the CBC will have to keep up.
20  1055                 As for funding, perhaps CBC radio
21     should take a very serious look at how national public
22     radio is funded in the United States.  Perhaps CBC
23     television should be modelled on the American public
24     broadcasting system.  The Canadian government must make
25     a commitment to match at least dollar for dollar, or


 1     more, all moneys raised from the public to operate the
 2     CBC in the 21st century, as well as provide an annual
 3     CBC budget.
 4  1056                 One of the most important things is
 5     for the CBC to promote real broadcasters to management
 6     positions.  The corporation needs management people who
 7     know the business of broadcasting.  The President of
 8     the CBC should be a broadcaster, not a career public
 9     servant.
10  1057                 Public broadcasting by the CBC is the
11     only way Canadians in St. John's can be kept in touch
12     with Saskatoon, Rimouski, Thunder Bay and every other
13     little nook and cranny in Canada.  Private radio won't
14     do it.
15  1058                 CBC radio is Canada's lifeline.  It
16     cannot be allowed to further deteriorate.
17  1059                 Thank you.
18  1060                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
19     Leith.
20  1061                 Mr. Stewart.
21                                                        1840
22  1062                 MR. STEWART:  We have been advised
23     that Ms Jasmine Jones will not be able to attend,
24     because she is ill.
25  1063                 I will now ask Ms Vanessa Morrison to


 1     make her presentation.
 3  1064                 MS MORRISON:  I am here representing
 4     the Nova Scotia Film Development Corporation this
 5     evening.  We have answered the questions directly that
 6     were on the sheet.
 7  1065                 The first question was:
 8                            "In your view, how well does the
 9                            CBC fulfill its role as the
10                            national public broadcaster?"
11  1066                 What is the mandate of the CBC?  If
12     it is to provide a cultural voice for the residents of
13     Canada, then perhaps the programming should be solely
14     Canadian content and should provide more opportunity
15     for different cultural sectors to be heard.  Providing
16     broadcast licences to more regional producers, with a
17     focus on cultural stories, could be one way that this
18     could be achieved.  More Canadian or Mi'Kmaw stories,
19     cultural sectors.
20  1067                 As for funding, if the CBC is
21     supposed to be a national public broadcaster, then they
22     should be treated as such.  At present, the CBC is
23     dependent on advertising dollars and yet still funded
24     by the public.  If they are in fact a public
25     broadcaster, they should be funded as such.  If not,


 1     then they should be allowed to operate as a private
 2     broadcaster, playing by the same rules.
 3  1068                 CBC cuts over the last number of
 4     years have brought serious difficulties and increased
 5     pressure and stress to the region, which we are seeing
 6     now with the ongoing strike.  They are not able to
 7     adequately meet the needs of the public that they are
 8     ultimately trying to serve.
 9  1069                 The next question you had was:
10                            "In the new millennium, should
11                            the CBC fulfill its role in a
12                            different manner than it has in
13                            the past?"
14  1070                 This goes back to the mandate
15     question.  Once defined as a cultural voice for
16     Canadians, then the CBC should begin to make changes
17     that will allow more Canadians to have their own
18     stories told.
19                            "How well does the CBC serve the
20                            public on a regional as well as
21                            at a national level?"
22  1071                 Regionally, the CBC Maritimes
23     provides excellent service, not only as a broadcaster
24     but as an integral member of the production and general
25     community.  Through the work of people like Fred


 1     Mattocks -- who is here this evening -- at CBC Halifax,
 2     a stronger film and television production community is
 3     being built right here in the Maritimes.  However, the
 4     picture is not perfect.
 5  1072                 More representation on a national
 6     scale by up-and-coming Atlantic Canadian producers
 7     would help secure the future of the television
 8     production sector in this region.
 9  1073                 Another thing referring to that is
10     that decisions are made in Toronto.  It may be a day or
11     two later before Halifax even finds out about those
12     decisions, but the production community does find out
13     ahead of them.
14  1074                 The next question:
15                            "Should the programming provided
16                            by CBC radio and television be
17                            different from that provided by
18                            other broadcasters?  If so, what
19                            should these differences be?"
20  1075                 The CBC should be providing more
21     truly Canadian stories by more Canadians than other
22     broadcasters.  Canadian content regulations should not
23     enter into the conversation.  This should be part of
24     the mandate of the corporation.
25                            "Is there a special role that


 1                            the CBC should play in the
 2                            presentation of Canadian
 3                            programming?  If so, what should
 4                            this role be?"
 5  1076                 Yes, the CBC should be actively
 6     pursuing Canadian stories, taking a proactive role in
 7     the development of Canadian culture, and promoting
 8     regional diversity through an increase in regional
 9     licences to independent producers and an increase in
10     funding to regional offices.
11  1077                 That ends my presentation.
12  1078                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
13     Morrison.
14                                                        1845
15  1079                 MR. STEWART:  I will now invite Mr.
16     Paul Jackson to make his presentation.
18  1080                 MR. JACKSON:  I would like to thank
19     the Commission for shortening the presentations to ten
20     minutes.  When I first booked an appointment with you,
21     I was told that I would be given 30 minutes to speak,
22     and I was horrified at the prospect.  Ten minutes
23     sounds a little more humane.
24  1081                 I have a definition which I would
25     like to offer to you to think about.


 1  1082                 I think this word is going to come up
 2     a lot in this evening's discussion.  It is a rather
 3     vague-sounding definition, but I think everyone would
 4     agree that it is a vague concept and one which
 5     Canadians struggle constantly with.
 6  1083                 If we look south of the border, the
 7     United States denies the importance of culture.  They
 8     have allowed big business to drive their social
 9     machines, with the end result that American culture is
10     defined by the voice of its commercial media.
11  1084                 To the rest of the world they are
12     increasingly perceived as simply an amalgamation of
13     corporate logos, with profit as their agenda.
14  1085                 There is evidence, though, that
15     Canadians defend this concept of a national culture. 
16     We are continually protecting ourselves from outside
17     influences, struggling to defend our interests despite
18     the undermining effects of treaties like GATT and
19     NAFTA.
20  1086                 Why do we bother?  Why do Canadians
21     insist that we are something other than the 51st state?
22  1087                 I promise I will not spend this
23     entire discussion ranting about Americans, but I would
24     like to make one comparison.  Everyone is familiar with
25     this image, I think.  Pierre Trudeau first said that we


 1     were similar to a mouse next to a sleeping elephant.
 2  1088                 I would like to suggest that it is
 3     this self-image of a mouse that gives us the cultural
 4     edge over Americans.  Canada is still a small country,
 5     not geographically but psychologically.  Each citizen
 6     can still feel a significant part of a tangible whole. 
 7     We are not yet a huge unwashed mass of consumers, but a
 8     social grouping of individuals who understand that
 9     community is more than the sum of its business revenue. 
10     This understanding is a subtle intangible thing, but it
11     is the basis of our culture, and its most visible
12     outlet is the CBC.
13  1089                 Commercial media do nothing to
14     support this understanding of ourselves.  Of necessity,
15     they serve their business clients, passing on only
16     those messages which are most useful for twisting the
17     consumer's opinion in favour of corporate goals.
18  1090                 The CBC has a different mandate.
19  1091                 It has been, and should remain, a
20     vehicle for the ideas of the common Canadian.  If we
21     examine CBC television, though, it is certainly
22     becoming alarmingly similar to the commercial
23     broadcasters, much more so than the radio service. 
24     This is a serious mistake.
25  1092                 The CBC should not attempt to emulate


 1     the commercial broadcasters.  There is no need to
 2     duplicate a product already available on a staggering
 3     profusion of channels.  To do so would be to invite
 4     annexation by any of the giant media corporations and
 5     ultimately a complete loss of autonomy.
 6  1093                 To my mind, privatization is not an
 7     option.
 8  1094                 Television is perhaps the most
 9     powerful propaganda tool available to man, and failing
10     to take every opportunity to broadcast Canadian-made
11     programming will inevitably lead to the loss of that
12     distinctiveness which makes us Canadian.
13  1095                 There is a lot of evidence that the
14     CBC still understands its responsibilities.  The use of
15     60-second spots to present historical vignettes is a
16     brilliant way of making our heritage exciting for those
17     who are not even aware of it.  And the broadcasting of
18     three hours of commercial-free children's television
19     every weekday morning is a wonderful sign of moral
20     strength by producers.
21  1096                 The CBC has always been renowned for
22     its documentaries and increasingly makes use of
23     Canadian talent to produce excellent dramas and feature
24     films.
25  1097                 Such endeavours should not be


 1     abandoned.
 2  1098                 Perhaps the area where CBC television
 3     is weakest is in representing Canada to other
 4     Canadians.  Programs like "On The Road Again",
 5     "Venture" and occasionally "Canada AM" build a social
 6     fabric, debunking the myth that Canadians are boring.
 7  1099                 I also feel that the CBC spends
 8     rather too much time broadcasting professional sporting
 9     events.  Canadians would be better served by programs
10     showing the great variety of amateur sporting events
11     that take place throughout the country.  Surely more
12     Canadians would be induced off the couch and into some
13     physical activity by the chance of seeing themselves on
14     the screen rather than watching some overpaid stranger.
15  1100                 But such a possibility seems
16     unlikely, even to an optimist like me.  CBC television
17     has gone too far down the road of commercialism.  I
18     only hope we can stop its downward spiral by this sort
19     of consultation.
20  1101                 CBC radio is another animal
21     altogether.  Until recent years, this branch of the
22     service maintained its integrity as a public
23     broadcaster and has always had a pleasing blend of
24     regional and national programming.  Personally, I
25     cannot understand why anyone would want to listen to


 1     commercial radio.  If you try to pay attention to it,
 2     you must enjoy an endless series of monotonously
 3     similar songs, interspersed with being harangued by
 4     sonorous voices telling you get downtown right away or
 5     you will miss the sale of the century.
 6  1102                 Those same voices make it impossible
 7     to use the radio as background music.  You are better
 8     off with a CD player or cassette deck.
 9  1103                 CBC radio, on the other hand, has the
10     best of both worlds.  With two networks available, you
11     can almost always tune in to a choice of music --
12     except, of course, in certain parts of Cape Breton --
13     or a wide range of programs with interviews and
14     performances which will educate or entertain you.
15  1104                 We get good local coverage in Sydney,
16     with programs such as "Information Morning", "Maritime
17     Noon", "Mainstreet", and "Weekend Morning". 
18     Nationally, we are tied together by such programs as
19     "The House", "This Morning", "Cross Country Check-up",
20     "As it Happens", to name just a few.
21  1105                 The CBC continues to provide exposure
22     for Canadians to new ideas and cultures through such
23     programs as "Quirks and Quarks", "Ideas", "Roots and
24     Wings", "Global Village", and so on.
25  1106                 Although there are hardly enough


 1     hours in the day, the CBC does make an attempt to
 2     provide for musical interests other than classical. 
 3     Programs like "Brave New Waves", "Finkelman's
 4     Forty-Fives" and "Vinyl Cafe" come to mind.
 5  1107                 I could not possibly mention here
 6     every single radio program that I admire on the CBC. 
 7     Suffice it to say that there is a hugely diverse
 8     selection, all designed to engage the mind and provide
 9     true entertainment.
10  1108                 It sounds too good to be true,
11     doesn't it.
12  1109                 CBC radio is unfortunately not
13     perfect.  Many people I know, including myself, spend a
14     large part of the day listening to CBC radio.  Radio
15     has the advantage over TV that it does not require a
16     static audience; idle hands, and all that.  So those of
17     us who can listen while we work.
18  1110                 If you tune in for more than an hour
19     or two a day, it becomes glaringly obvious that things
20     are not as they were.  In the last few years a number
21     of high profile radio personalities have disappeared
22     from the CBC radio dial.  CBC management has failed to
23     replace the lost programs with new ones, preferring to
24     shuffle existing announcers around so that less people
25     are doing more work.


 1  1111                 While I realize that favourite
 2     programs must come and go, the present policy seems to
 3     show a rather sad lack of imagination.  Programs are
 4     rebroadcast sometimes three or four times in a week,
 5     and the listener's choice is rapidly dwindling.
 6  1112                 I do not believe Canada's culture can
 7     be adequately represented by an endless series of
 8     reruns.  In the same vein, CBC radio has taken to
 9     broadcasting the news every half hour on Radio One. 
10     The network's motto may be news and more, but does it
11     have to be the same news every half hour?  Surely
12     reporting every hour is more than sufficient.
13  1113                 They do a pretty good job of
14     reporting on local, regional, national and
15     international issues in a non-partisan fashion, but
16     there is no need to break up the flow of other
17     programming with constant interruptions.
18  1114                 If the CBC is so desperate to fill up
19     air time, they should look to Canadian authors and
20     playwrights to provide stories and plays for broadcast.
21  1115                 My 5-year-old son enjoys the stories
22     he hears on "Vinyl Cafe".  My wife loves the "Mystery
23     Project", and I enjoy the excerpts read on "Writers and
24     Company".
25  1116                 Radio drama used to be very


 1     successful and inexpensive, and I think it is about
 2     time it made a comeback.
 3  1117                 Basically, CBC radio seems to be
 4     stagnating.  The bean counters seem to have forgotten
 5     that public radio thrives on variety.  I would suggest
 6     that the listening audience is a loyal one that
 7     understands that things change, but they expect the CBC
 8     to continue providing programs which express the
 9     diversity of Canadians and their experiences.
10  1118                 The CBC must not become just another
11     "golden oldies" station on the dial.  Canadian culture
12     is more than just recording companies, rock bands and
13     ads for furniture warehouse outlets.
14  1119                 If I had to explain our country and
15     people to someone who knew nothing about them, I would
16     show them one of those 60-second historical clips.  I
17     think you know the one I mean, where Canada is mistaken
18     for the name of a country when really it means village.
19  1120                 We should be proud to think of
20     ourselves as villagers.  Any sociologist will tell you
21     that human beings behave more humanely in small groups. 
22     But if we are to think of ourselves as a grouping of
23     villages, then we must have something to link us
24     together.
25  1121                 The Fathers of Confederation


 1     understood the need for this link.  Their contribution
 2     was a transcontinental railroad which served for a time
 3     but eventually failed.  The CBC is now the only link
 4     across this vast country.
 5  1122                 All the Canadians who believe that
 6     they are part of something worthwhile see it daily
 7     reinforced on the CBC.
 8  1123                 Certainly there are differences
 9     between people listening in Digby or Sept Isles or
10     Moose Jaw or Nanaimo, but we have the CBC to bridge
11     those gaps, in our experience.  Our diversity makes us
12     stronger.  If we were all the same, then Canadians
13     really would be boring, but we have proof in the CBC
14     that we are not all the same.  We should defend with
15     our hearts and souls that continuing evidence of our
16     existence and our culture.
17  1124                 Don't let the CBC go commercial.  It
18     is, after all, the Canadian Broadcasting Company.
19  1125                 Thank you very much.
20  1126                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
21     Jackson.
22                                                        1855
23  1127                 MR. STEWART:  I would now like to
24     invite Ms Margie MacDonald to make her presentation.


 1  1128                 MS MacDONALD:  It is Marjorie
 2     MacDonald.
 3  1129                 The reason I am here tonight, apart
 4     from welcoming the CRTC to Sydney, is to speak as a
 5     consumer in regard to my opinion on the CBC, both radio
 6     and television.
 7  1130                 Tonight most people have spoken about
 8     radio, and I think I will speak a little bit about the
 9     TV side of the CBC.
10  1131                 To begin with, I am a proud supporter
11     of the CBC and a proud taxpayer willing to support it. 
12     I was, and continue to be, upset about the loss of our
13     own local TV news, but over the last number of years I
14     have adjusted to that fact.  I appreciate the news
15     broadcast out of Halifax, "First Edition", as it does
16     carry a good deal of information regarding Cape Breton
17     and the staff, as most of us know, know the island well
18     as many of them are Cape Bretoners.
19  1132                 They have also endeared themselves to
20     us here by travelling to areas outside of the Halifax
21     area.
22  1133                 My concerns continue, and I am
23     worried that we here locally in Cape Breton, but also
24     in the entire Maritimes, may once again feel the cuts. 
25     I am worried that we will not have a voice that will be


 1     heard; that our stories will not be able to be heard in
 2     the other regions of Canada; and that we will not be
 3     able to share our uniqueness with others.
 4  1134                 A tax-supported public system is good
 5     for Cape Breton and is good for the Maritimes,
 6     particularly for all of us to be able to speak our own
 7     stories, about our own selves, about our own people.  I
 8     support the mandate of the CBC which allows us to do
 9     that; different parts of the country speaking to other
10     parts of the country in their own voices by their own
11     people.
12  1135                 One of the shows that I am
13     particularly know that allows for that is a show that
14     is called "Land and Sea".
15  1136                 I already wrote to the CBC regarding
16     this show about a year ago, as I was upset that I could
17     not find it anywhere as it seemed to be moving around
18     quite a bit.  Now I feel that it may continue to fall
19     victim to moves and may be out the door altogether.
20  1137                 I do continue to have difficulty
21     finding it on any TV schedule, and I have not seen it
22     in a while.
23  1138                 I am here to voice my support for
24     that show, and I would like to tell you why.
25  1139                 The show is a great example of


 1     regional programming, which gives all Canadians a
 2     chance to see the Maritimes and Cape Breton; gives the
 3     rest of Canada a chance to see the east coast.  "Land
 4     and Sea" talks to us about us, the people who live and
 5     work here, who care about the resources of our country,
 6     who care about our rural communities, who care about
 7     our way of life, and who want to see and hear about the
 8     issues in depth.
 9  1140                 The resource centre, the environment,
10     the people who work in forestry, farming, mining and
11     fishing are the issues that this show deals with.  It
12     is unique in that it reflects our lives, our roots,
13     helping us to understand and celebrate ourselves and
14     the uniqueness of the place in which we live.
15  1141                 These stories need to be covered. 
16     These are stories which reflect our values and our
17     culture, that define the east coast.  These stories
18     need to be told through the mouths and the eyes of the
19     people who live and work here, the people of the
20     Maritimes.
21  1142                 I would suggest that both on air and
22     behind the scenes remain as close as possible to where
23     the stories are, so that we can trust that they truly
24     reflect who we are.  I worry that some decisions about
25     our region are made in far-away places like Toronto, or


 1     other large cities outside the region.  Often the
 2     result is not truly representative of who we are as a
 3     people.  Those places should tell their own stories and
 4     share them with us.
 5  1143                 Centralization is not the way to go. 
 6     More and more people are seeking more and more
 7     decentralization.  I work in the area of addiction
 8     services in the area of health.  What we are hearing
 9     often from people in the field that I work in is that
10     decentralization is the way to go.
11  1144                 I am unhappy to see the CBC becoming
12     more and more centralized.
13  1145                 CBC can help in our identification as
14     Canadians by letting all of us, region to region, talk
15     to one another.  Our nation-building is helped by the
16     sharing of our stories, of our music, and of our
17     experiences.
18  1146                 I hope you will try to help that
19     continue.
20  1147                 Thank you.
21  1148                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
22     MacDonald.
23                                                        1900
24  1149                 MR. STEWART:  I would now invite Ms
25     Sandra Dunn to make her presentation.


 2  1150                 MS DUNN:  Good evening and thank you
 3     for the opportunity to be able to speak to the CRTC.
 4  1151                 I am addressing the CBC and the
 5     volunteer sector of the community, the relationship
 6     that is between CBC Sydney and the volunteers, the
 7     people who work in a volunteer capacity within the
 8     community.
 9  1152                 I am currently the President of the
10     Whitney Pier Historical Society and the past President
11     of the Whitney Pier Festival of Visual Arts.  I am
12     still on the board.  I am very active in the community,
13     and that is basically where a lot of my relationship
14     with the CBC began.
15  1153                 If anything good can be said about
16     the strike situation at CBC, it is that it brings home
17     to people the important role that CBC plays in our
18     community life.  From pre-dawn when "Information
19     Morning" starts the day to late afternoon when
20     "Mainstreet" steps out to visit its friends all over
21     the island, it fills our day with information and
22     music, linking us together as we go about our daily
23     lives.
24  1154                 No one covers local issues and events
25     as does CBC Sydney.  Live broadcasts from Pleasant Bay


 1     to Port Hawkesbury to Port Hood allows us to visit our
 2     neighbours and get to know them.
 3  1155                 I am here this evening speaking both
 4     as a listener and a contributor, via the "Party Line",
 5     regarding the invaluable service the CBC performs for
 6     those of us who work in the volunteer sector.
 7  1156                 They provide a depth of coverage of
 8     events that non-profits could ever hope to purchase or
 9     even expect to get in the commercial bracket.  I speak
10     from my own experience in relationship to my community
11     of Whitney Pier, but the principle may be applied to
12     any location and organization on the island.
13  1157                 Our community of Whitney Pier is
14     unique, having risen and declined with the fortunes of
15     the steel industry.  We are a multinational blend of
16     European and West Indian cultures and boast more
17     organizations and halls per capita than anywhere else I
18     know of, and they all celebrate their cultural history.
19  1158                 CBC is there to help us share these
20     events, thus promoting greater understanding of our
21     people.
22  1159                 Our museum has benefited greatly from
23     their commitment to the promotion of community
24     initiatives.  A couple of years ago weekly visits by
25     "Mainstreet" to inform folks about our art exhibits at


 1     the museum increased our profile immeasurably.
 2  1160                 "I heard about this on CBC" is a
 3     phrase often heard during community events, as a person
 4     drives from miles away just to drop in.
 5  1161                 Another example is a live broadcast
 6     from the Gallery of Purescape 98.  "Mainstreet" once
 7     again succeeded in bringing people to share in the
 8     event who might not have made the trip across the
 9     overpass.
10  1162                 From the in depth coverage of hard
11     news to the folksy fun of "Party Line", CBC seeks out
12     the newsmakers.  Stories are covered extensively, and
13     plenty of times a lot of opposing views on issues that
14     affect us.
15  1163                 I would like to go back in time to
16     1996, to a letter to the editor that I wrote that
17     appeared "In My View".  It was "CBC Mandate
18     Threatened".  At the time, we were threatened perhaps
19     with the demise of "Mainstreet".
20  1164                 I would like to read a couple of
21     things that I wrote at that time.  A copy of this was
22     sent to Perrin Beatty, and this subsequently appeared
23     in the Cape Breton Post.
24                            "Again we are faced with the
25                            loss of yet another important


 1                            part of our island, one that has
 2                            contributed so much over the
 3                            years to our knowledge of who we
 4                            are, the people of Cape Breton. 
 5                            I refer to the CBC cuts that
 6                            will end an era of broadcast
 7                            journalism that has delved into
 8                            the very heart and soul of every
 9                            community on this island.  That
10                            program is "Mainstreet".
11  1165                 I am using that as an example, but
12     for any other of our local programming these words
13     could apply.
14                            "Over the years we have shared
15                            the laughter, tears, hopes and
16                            dreams of people and places that
17                            we learned about from reporters
18                            who wrote the stories of our
19                            daily lives and celebrated the
20                            rich culture that creates a Cape
21                            Bretoner.  Theatre, the arts,
22                            community issues and events from
23                            one end of the island to the
24                            other provide the fodder for
25                            those talented folks to feed the


 1                            imagination and foster
 2                            understanding and communication
 3                            throughout the area.  One of the
 4                            best things that CBC always did
 5                            was promote regional programming
 6                            and "Mainstreet" is an example
 7                            of that success at its highest
 8                            level."
 9  1166                 At that time I stated that:
10                            "I get the feeling that CBC's
11                            emphasis has shifted
12                            dramatically and John Q. Public
13                            is no longer an important factor
14                            in the new mandate."
15  1167                 I just went on about the contacts
16     that I had with them and how I felt that they benefit
17     our community.
18  1168                 We cannot lose any portion of this. 
19     At a time when we are fighting for our fiscal as well
20     as our economic health, CBC Sydney is a place we can
21     rely on to tackle all sides of an issue.
22  1169                 In their coverage of health,
23     economic, political and educational issues and the
24     music, arts and literature of the island, CBC is
25     unparalleled.  CBC Sydney reflects who we are:  the


 1     good, the bad and the ugly.  It helps us achieve goals,
 2     face reality and dare to dream.  Anything less is
 3     unacceptable.
 4  1170                 Thank you.
 5  1171                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms Dunn.
 6                                                        1905
 7  1172                 MR. STEWART:  I now invite Mr. Robert
 8     McNeil to make his presentation.
10  1173                 MR. McNEIL:  I will be able to reduce
11     mine substantially after some of the speakers that have
12     gone before me.
13  1174                 I bring a perspective to CBC as a
14     person who had not lived in Cape Breton for quite a
15     while.  I was born here but went away and lived in many
16     places in Atlantic Canada.
17  1175                 I think it was during these
18     travelling years that I really appreciated broadcasting
19     such as we found on CBC.  No matter where you were, you
20     were always well informed on things nationally; but you
21     were also well informed on the situation locally,
22     wherever you happened to live.
23  1176                 I think this is very important, not
24     only to people who have lived in an area all their
25     lives; but I think it is a way that people moving into


 1     an area can become better informed about what is
 2     happening in their community.
 3  1177                 I think that CBC is very important
 4     nationally, but for Heaven's sake don't forget the
 5     regions and the local broadcasting.  I think this is
 6     the part that I probably have more fear about than
 7     anything else.
 8  1178                 The corporation's board of directors,
 9     I believe most of them have no broadcasting experience. 
10     They are hand-picked by the Prime Minister and are not
11     regarded as very friendly to the future of the CBC. 
12     Folks like our Chairperson are on record as preferring
13     a national sounding radio service based in the
14     country's largest centres.  The board seems unable to
15     appreciate the diversity of the regions and the areas
16     of the country and seems willing to shut down valuable
17     local shows like "Mainstreet" and "Information
18     Morning".  This can't be allowed to happen.
19  1179                 I think that the importance of local
20     programming was shown since the labour dispute of the
21     last few weeks.  I don't even think that Halifax can
22     properly service this area.  They don't know the
23     geography.  That is demonstrated in the way some of
24     their public service announcements are handled.  As is
25     indicated earlier, they can't even pronounce our names


 1     or the names of our community.
 2  1180                 Why this couldn't be done locally,
 3     even with the strike on -- there is no reason why some
 4     of the journalists on duty in the Sydney area could not
 5     phone in and do the public service announcements and at
 6     least get them right, and probably a bit more timely as
 7     well.
 8  1181                 While we are considering radio and
 9     with the move in this country to make everything pay
10     for itself, there is a lot of pressure to consider
11     commercial sponsorship of CBC radio programs.  I feel
12     it will undermine the integrity of this world-class
13     broadcasting system.
14  1182                 I should also note that CBC radio's
15     positive impact on the nation overshadows that of CBC
16     television, while consuming less than a quarter of the
17     corporation's budget.  Like someone said, you can
18     listen to CBC radio as you work, or as you drive, or as
19     you sit on the beach.  This is not so with CBC
20     television.  I think the impact of CBC radio on this
21     nation far, far outweighs the impact of CBC television.
22  1183                 I think there is also a move to fix a
23     government logo on the CBC logo.  This may be fact; it
24     may be fiction.  But it should never ever be allowed to
25     happen.  We have to maintain the integrity of the


 1     corporation.  It can't be seen as a publicity arm of
 2     the government.  It must be kept separate and entire.
 3  1184                 With access to cable and satellite,
 4     the selection of television channels is incredible. 
 5     Where does the CBC television service fit in?
 6  1185                 Some would argue that Newsworld
 7     represents the very best of what CBC does, while the
 8     regular channel is lost in the channel clicking
 9     shuffle.  But then who else would produce the high
10     quality drama, sports, local and evening news?
11  1186                 I think that the evening news is most
12     important again in the regions.  There has to be, I
13     think, more input from the Cape Breton area on the
14     evening television programs.  I don't think we are
15     doing a good enough job here.
16  1187                 I think that some of the forces at
17     work on the board are simply because some of the people
18     who are sitting on the board don't know or understand
19     the broadcasting industry.
20  1188                 I think it is worthy to note that
21     Cape Breton's agenda has suffered and has been given
22     lower priority provincially and nationally since our
23     local supper hour news "Cape Breton Report" was axed in
24     a round of cutbacks; that fact, as well as the lack of
25     media outlet in the Port Hawkesbury area.  This is one


 1     of the fastest growing areas of Cape Breton.
 2  1189                 We have a problem in Cape Breton now
 3     among the municipal governments, that one thinks one is
 4     getting too much attention.  They are having problems
 5     getting together.  I think this is a role for CBC, to
 6     get us all together.
 7  1190                 If I were to leave home early
 8     Wednesday morning and drive to Halifax, when I get to
 9     St. Peter's, I lose the Cape Breton signal.  I think it
10     is almost impossible to get a good signal of Cape
11     Breton CBC radio between St. Peter's and going on.
12  1191                 We know that there is a tower
13     broadcasting CBC Halifax across the Strait.  Why it is
14     there -- it was probably a political decision.  I think
15     it is time that we took a hard look at that and get
16     this signal back into covering all of Cape Breton.
17  1192                 Jim St. Clair spoke earlier.  He did
18     a lot more research on the topic than I did.  I think
19     there is a very, very substantial case to be made to
20     improve the signal coverage of Cape Breton.  There is
21     no reason in the world --
22  1193                 Jim talks about the other side of the
23     island.  Well, I think there is another side that is
24     being neglected -- even if some people refer to it as
25     the bottom.


 1  1194                 Anyway, it is desperately being
 2     neglected.  That is most of Richmond County.  They
 3     can't get anything out of CBC Sydney, or at least very
 4     little; and when they do, it is a very poor quality.
 5  1195                 I think there could even be a case
 6     made for perhaps a bureau in the Port Hawkesbury area;
 7     whether it would cover radio and television both, but
 8     certainly radio.
 9  1196                 I recall during one of my terms
10     living in Prince Edward Island that CBC had a bureau in
11     Summerside.  Well, for heaven's sake, Summerside to
12     Charlottetown was about a 30-minute ride.  I don't know
13     if it is still there, but the individual who was
14     running it, I hear his voice now out of CBC Halifax.
15  1197                 A half-hour ride as compared to two
16     hours in some parts of Cape Breton.  I think there is a
17     case to be made for increasing or broadening the
18     reporter coverage in Cape Breton in both radio and
19     television.
20  1198                 The island right now is going through
21     a tremendous upheaval.  There is not a TV, a newspaper
22     or a radio station to reflect and interpret the change
23     that the taxpayers of this island are going through. 
24     Only CBC radio outlets, in my opinion anyway, are to
25     make headway in this regard.  The newspapers are owned


 1     by large chains, with a priority for profit.
 2  1199                 ATV has had a generation to provide
 3     this coherent view of island life, and has chosen the
 4     profit motive also.  CBC's small TV bureau cannot
 5     effectively provide a voice in Cape Breton.  They are
 6     just not getting the job done.
 7  1200                 I see two primary goals that need to
 8     be met as soon as possible.  As I said earlier, total
 9     coverage of Prince Edward Island, not only
10     electronically, not only with the signal to get the
11     signal out for both radio and television, but also to
12     get adequate coverage of reporters, TV cameras, and so
13     on.
14  1201                 The CBC radio service is a vital link
15     to the country, for rural people in particular.  It is
16     often the only service available, and the CRTC should
17     remind the corporation to make sure these people's
18     needs are met, for they pay as much taxes as urban
19     dwellers.
20  1202                 Over the long term the CBC ought to
21     improve its transmitters.  Jim has told the story
22     adequately, and I won't go on with that.
23  1203                 My final note is just a favourite of
24     mine.  Last year on the "Morning Program" we enjoyed a
25     segment which was called "Mr. Nova Scotia Know-it-all". 


 1     We laughed.  It was wonderful.  It is still available
 2     in Halifax, but we don't get it here.  It is one
 3     section of the "Morning Program" that we would love to
 4     have down here.  I don't see why not.  It is only a few
 5     minutes a week.  I for one would love to hear it again.
 6  1204                 I thank you for your time.  I think
 7     that the Government of Canada should be prepared to
 8     fund a public broadcaster in this country.  They should
 9     be prepared to adequately fund it, and they should be
10     prepared to take a hard look at it being more than a
11     national service.  It is a very, very important
12     regional service.
13  1205                 We have to maintain and even improve
14     on what we have.
15  1206                 Thank you very much.
16  1207                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you Mr.
17     McNeil.  We appreciate your comments.
18  1208                 I think you made a little slip in
19     your first proposal, though, when you said -- and I
20     think I wrote this down correctly -- "total coverage of
21     Prince Edward Island".
22  1209                 MR. McNEIL:  Pardon me?
23  1210                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  You said "total
24     coverage of Prince Edward Island", and I think you
25     meant Cape Breton.


 1  1211                 MR. McNEIL:  No.  I was talking about
 2     when I lived in Prince Edward Island; that there was
 3     total coverage there and that there was even a bureau
 4     operating there.
 5  1212                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I know you said
 6     that, but I thought you were asking for total --
 7  1213                 MR. McNEIL:  Okay.  I get mixed up
 8     with my islands on occasion.  I always did.  It's
 9     either Prince Edward Island, Cape Breton Island or
10     Newfoundland.  Forgive me.
11  1214                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I guess we should
12     do all the islands.
13  1215                 And I would suggest that maybe you
14     and Mr. St. Clair might want to get together to make a
15     proposal to the CBC that you could do the "Mr.
16     Know-it-all" show for Cape Breton.  I think the two of
17     you together could do an excellent job.
18  1216                 MR. McNEIL:  Another Cape Bretoner,
19     one with good Cape Breton roots, has that covered.
20  1217                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I was asked
21     earlier, when they saw the name on the list, whether
22     you were "the" Robert McNeil.
23  1218                 I guess you would say you are.
24  1219                 MR. McNEIL:  Well, I am the Robert
25     McNeil.  I should have said at first that I have a bit


 1     of a conflict of interest here, in that I do have
 2     family in the corporation.  So please don't hold that
 3     against me.
 4  1220                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 5     much.
 6  1221                 MR. STEWART:  I will now call upon
 7     Dr. Elizabeth Beaton to make her presentation.
 8  1222                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is Dr. Beaton here?
 9     --- Pause / Pause
10  1223                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  It would appear
11     not.
12  1224                 MR. STEWART:  Then we will move to
13     Mr. Stephen Downes, if you would be good enough to make
14     your presentation.
15  1225                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Downes?
16                                                        1915
17  1226                 MR. STEWART:  Not here.
18  1227                 Third time lucky, Mr. James MacSwain.
20  1228                 MR. MacSWAIN:  I am here.
21  1229                 I want to thank the Canadian
22     Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, the
23     CRTC, for holding these consultations on the future of
24     the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, the CBC, and
25     opening them to the Canadian public from across the


 1     nation.
 2  1230                 This is a rare chance to speak before
 3     the CRTC, particularly during this time when the CBC is
 4     so threatened, internally and externally, due to the
 5     budget cuts from the federal government, a hostile
 6     prime minister, and a board composed of Liberal
 7     patronage appointments.
 8  1231                 Because of these pressures on the
 9     corporation, both CBC unions have initiated a strike
10     and soon the CBC may shut down so that none of their
11     programs will be reaching the Canadian people.
12  1232                 My name is James MacSwain and I hold
13     a number of positions in the arts community in Halifax,
14     Nova Scotia.  I am a representative for the Canadian
15     Conference of the Arts, the CCA, for Nova Scotia.  The
16     CCA is a broad-based board of artists and arts
17     administrators that represent the Canadian cultural
18     community and who lobby for increased awareness of the
19     work of artists and those who work in the cultural
20     industries.
21  1233                 I am a member of the Nova Scotia Arts
22     Council, which is an arm's length provincial agency
23     that gives grants to artists.  I am an ex-officio board
24     member of the Cultural Network, a provincial
25     organization that represents a broad-based cultural


 1     sector constituency.
 2  1234                 I am also on the board of the Centre
 3     for Art Tapes and an ex-officio board member of the
 4     Atlantic Film Makers Cooperative.  These last two
 5     organizations are artist-run media centres, one video,
 6     the other film, who have just entered into a
 7     partnership with the CBC and moved into the CBC radio
 8     building in Halifax.
 9  1235                 The strike has had an enormous impact
10     on these organizations, as workshops, meetings, access
11     to equipment has had to be juggled and in some
12     instances postponed.  For a few months these
13     organizations were expanding and enjoying an
14     environment which represented a more open future, and
15     now these same organizations are under siege and the
16     future seems uncertain and crowded with questions.
17  1236                 We are here to discuss the future of
18     the CBC, whose future seems even more obscure and
19     crowded with disaster.  Yes, the unions are striking
20     for higher wages and job security, and I think they are
21     also striking for what they see as an end to one vision
22     of the CBC.
23  1237                 This vision is embodied in the
24     Canadian Broadcasting Act of 1991, particularly in the
25     section entitled "Broadcasting Policy for Canada". 


 1     Like all Parliamentary Acts, it encompasses what we all
 2     think of as the Canadian ideal; that is, protection of
 3     our sovereignty over our own cultural production,
 4     protection of the two official languages, a balance of
 5     entertainment and enlightenment, a capacity to educate,
 6     a style that generates tolerance and rational
 7     discourse.
 8  1238                 And in number (m)(ii), it states:
 9                            "The programming provided by the
10                            corporation should reflect
11                            Canada and its regions to
12                            national and regional audiences
13                            while serving the special needs
14                            of those regions."
15  1239                 In these days of a conservative
16     mindset, the elite of our country would like to
17     consolidate resources and profits in centralized
18     locations; i.e., Toronto.  Thus we come to the great
19     tension that has been with the Canadian people since
20     Confederation:  the push and pull of regional versus
21     centralized authority; or the location of wealth in
22     Ontario, in Ottawa, versus the "have not" provinces,
23     particularly the "have not" provinces represented by
24     the Atlantic Region.
25  1240                 The original mandate of the CBC was


 1     to unify the country, and to do that it had to reach
 2     out to the regions and to explain each region to other
 3     regions.
 4  1241                 In this scenario, the Atlantic Region
 5     has always been as prominent as any other region,
 6     particularly our music and our drama.  The CBC has also
 7     unified each region, concentrating on shows that
 8     brought regional concerns before a regional public.
 9  1242                 As a representative for many of the
10     artists in cultural industries that have benefited from
11     this regional mandate of the CBC, I want the CRTC to
12     hear that we want a strong regional voice in the CBC
13     that utilizes the cultural energy and vision of all our
14     Atlantic cultural workers.
15  1243                 We do not want a concentration of CBC
16     specialty channels out of Toronto, which we do not have
17     access to and which would not be interested in our
18     unique voice or stories.  We do not want to be
19     relegated to a "have not" communications policy because
20     the CBC has, whether we agree or not, been a thorn in
21     the side of the Liberal Government.
22  1244                 This I think, as I stated above, is
23     the real reason for the strike.  Whether it be
24     unconscious or not, the workers at the CBC sense a
25     change in the idealogy of the country, and this


 1     idealogy, which seems to be subtly controlled by the
 2     United States of America, is not an idealogy that
 3     represents the interests of the Canadian people.
 4  1245                 Marshall McLuhan, a Canadian
 5     communications cultural critic, raised this question in
 6     one of his early works.  He writes:
 7                            "Ours is the first age in which
 8                            thousands of the best trained
 9                            individual minds have made it a
10                            fulltime business to get inside
11                            the collective public mind.  To
12                            get inside in order to
13                            manipulate, exploit, control is
14                            the object now, and to generate
15                            heat, not light, is the
16                            intention.  To keep everybody in
17                            the helpless state engendered by
18                            prolonged mental rutting is the
19                            effect of many ads and much
20                            entertainment alike."
21  1246                 The idealogy represented by the
22     U.S.A. is one that supposedly envisions a world that is
23     free of idealogy, where the individual wins against
24     giant corporations and corrupt governments, and
25     democracy triumphs over both communism and capitalism. 


 1     We all know that this is not true.
 2  1247                 Like Marshall McLuhan, we are well
 3     aware that the American entertainment business is a
 4     propaganda device that shores up the global American
 5     empire and capitalism while making sure we are rolled
 6     into a helpless state, so that by the time we are
 7     gobbled up we are not even aware of the pain.
 8  1248                 Most people believe that this has
 9     already happened in Canada, so there is no need to
10     fight back.  However, I do not believe that this has
11     already happened in Canada.  I believe -- and I am
12     backed by the beliefs of the artists and cultural
13     industries of Canada -- that we still resist this
14     spectacular violent world so aggressively promoted by
15     American interests.
16  1249                 I believe that the CBC resists such a
17     world.  But as I mentioned above, I also believe that
18     this resistance is faltering as CBC management panics
19     over loss of power in a multi-channel universe.
20  1250                 I see this panic as engendered by two
21     factors: a fear of democracy, and a fear of new
22     diginote technologies.
23  1251                 In ways still unfamiliar and strange
24     to relate, the new digital technologies of the World
25     Wide Web and the Internet are unregulated.  In other


 1     words, they are there to be freely utilized by both
 2     entrepreneurs and political groups on the right and the
 3     left.  Pornographers snuggle up to animal rights
 4     groups, which in turn snuggle up to groups that want
 5     government to get out of gun control.
 6  1252                 The voices, beliefs and ideologies of
 7     the western world are all there waiting to be heard by
 8     anyone who wants to listen.  What eventually will this
 9     do to our compressed and regulated broadcast channels?
10  1253                 The public, having tasted the freedom
11     to have the world at its fingertips, will want that
12     freedom in its broadcast system.  Therefore, if the CBC
13     is to survive in this multi-channel and new
14     technological universe, it will have to become more
15     democratic and regional to track those viewers
16     interested in authentic culture.
17  1254                 I still trust that the Canadian
18     public, a public built on an ancestral memory of the
19     class-risen societies of the old countries, of pioneers
20     who were forced to settle in Canada and who eventually
21     established a more democratic system, is still able to
22     distinguish between sham culture and authentic culture.
23  1255                 If the CBC cannot deliver this
24     authentic culture in both its regional and national
25     manifestations, then the people will turn from it and


 1     seek authenticity elsewhere.  Or, like the American
 2     public, they will be driven to the extremes of
 3     cynicism, where culture becomes a function of escape
 4     into an unreal world of hollow spectacles.
 5  1256                 Yet at present those people
 6     interested in an authentic culture are fewer than those
 7     who do not want to involve themselves in the difficult
 8     project of thinking.  But that is what the CBC is all
 9     about: to try and raise the level of thinking in this
10     country.
11  1257                 It is unthinkable that this
12     experiment in democratic communications practice should
13     end.
14  1258                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
15     MacSwain, for your presentation.
16  1259                 Since we are halfway through the list
17     for this evening, I think we will take a five-minute
18     break at this time, and then we will reconvene and hear
19     the rest of the presentations.
20     --- Recess at 1930 / Suspension à 1930
21     --- Upon resuming at 1940 / Reprise à 1940
22  1260                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ladies and
23     gentlemen, we will return to our proceeding now.
24  1261                 Mr. Stewart.
25                                                        1945


 1  1262                 MR. STEWART:  Thank you.
 2  1263                 I would like to invite Mr. Ronald
 3     Kaplin to make his presentation.
 5  1264                 MR. KAPLIN:  I edit Cape Breton's
 6     Magazine and Breton Books.  Three things made me decide
 7     to stay in Canada:  the people of Cape Breton, the
 8     beer, and the CBC.
 9  1265                 The beer is still fine.  The people
10     of Cape Breton have taken an awful beating in the past
11     30 years, but they manage to come up as a unique and
12     interesting people.  But the CBC is the worry of the
13     day.
14  1266                 I have been here for 30 years.  I
15     have created and published a magazine for 27 years, and
16     published another 35 books, all with CBC at my
17     shoulder.  More than my background partner, it
18     stimulates, challenges, makes me proud of this country,
19     proud of an experiment in democracy that funds critical
20     analysis of Canadian life.  I felt a little like we
21     were in partnership; the both of us devoted to good
22     music and to the human voice.
23  1267                 More than that, the CBC radio in Cape
24     Breton has gone a long way toward making my work
25     possible.  Local programs like "Mainstreet",


 1     "Information Morning" and "Island Echoes" have
 2     demonstrated a long-time interest in my work and in the
 3     work of the island's writers, supporting Breton Books
 4     authors on-air, occasionally even purchasing their
 5     work.
 6  1268                 No one has worked harder than Wendy
 7     Birkfeldt toward promoting Cape Breton writing,
 8     including book launches and the regular programming,
 9     creating shows out of readings and interviews.
10  1269                 CBC has turned several Cape Breton
11     Magazine stories into radio drama.  Wendy and Ian
12     MacNeil and several others, including Joella Folds --
13     who we all woke up with for a number of years -- are
14     vigorous caring people who believe that what is
15     happening here in Cape Breton is important and should
16     be aired locally, and then should be aired as often as
17     it can be in the national context.
18  1270                 How else can Breton Books afford such
19     publicity?  And more important, how else are young
20     people to know that Cape Breton has a vital place in
21     Canada?  CBC has again and again given a voice to
22     fragile and vital cultural items.
23  1271                 Not that everything is perfect.  Many
24     of us worry that CBC radio will continue to be cut,
25     that it will end up as a fortress in Toronto, and no


 1     one will be looking for the voice of Canada's outport
 2     communities, the local communities that I consider at
 3     least as important as, if not more than, Toronto.
 4  1272                 As the human voice disappears from
 5     private radio, I have watched Cape Breton's CBC, with a
 6     declining staff, try to open its lines more and more to
 7     the local voice.  This is on top of already doing a
 8     good job with a cut-down staff.
 9  1273                 There should be much more local
10     programming.  Gaelic, Mi'Kmaw and French should have an
11     appropriate place on air.  There should be a structure
12     by which the best of local programming finds it way to
13     the rest of Canada.
14  1274                 The CBC can give us a centre while
15     respecting the local all across Canada.  That should be
16     the goal.  Programming should work two ways.
17  1275                 My work has been the human voice,
18     local stories.  Cape Breton's Magazine is the longest
19     running oral history magazine in Canada.  I know that
20     programming in Sydney is committed to the human voice. 
21     I want that to be a strong part of the continuing CBC
22     mandate.
23  1276                 I want the CRTC to make local
24     programming part of the licence requirement and to
25     encourage government to better fund it, to restore CBC


 1     jobs in Sydney, and to certainly not allow one more
 2     cut -- not one.
 3  1277                 CBC is a marvellous experiment in
 4     broadcasting and looks finally to the CRTC for
 5     protection.  It is not enough to protect Toronto. 
 6     Without a vigorous station in Sydney, CBC cannot be
 7     said to be in touch with Nova Scotia.
 8  1278                 The CBC should be encouraged to
 9     include more of the local voice nationally, and that
10     requires staff and equipment at the local level. 
11     Halifax won't make it happen, and Toronto won't make it
12     happen.  The glory of the CBC is to draw the country
13     together while also representing the marvellous range
14     of local voices that is Canada.
15  1279                 The CRTC should mandate that local
16     programming should be maintained and expanded.  In
17     doing so, it is sending the message to government that
18     government should expand funding.
19  1280                 To sum up:  The beer is still good. 
20     Cape Breton, despite 30 years of tough times, is still
21     a marvellous place and a marvellous people.  But the
22     CBC -- I am more than a little worried about the CBC.
23  1281                 Thank you.
24  1282                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
25     Kaplin.


 1  1283                 I'm tempted to say:  "Let's go have a
 2     beer and talk about this."  But I think we had better
 3     hear the other presentations first.
 4  1284                 Mr. Stewart.
 5                                                        1945
 6  1285                 MR. STEWART:  Now I am back to Chief
 7     Lindsay Marshall to make his presentation.
 8  1286                 He is not here.
 9  1287                 Then, I invite Ms Joan Weeks to make
10     her presentation.
11  1288                 She is not here either.
12  1289                 Mr. Dan Yakimchuk, representing the
13     Cape Breton Council of Seniors & Pensioners.
15  1290                 MR. YAKIMCHUK:  Thank you very much,
16     Mr. Chairman.
17  1291                 I am here on behalf of the Cape
18     Breton Council of Seniors and Pensioners.  I want to
19     apologize on behalf of the President, who was going to
20     present tonight, but he has the flu.  I was with him at
21     a meeting this afternoon.  So what you see is what you
22     get.
23  1292                 I am not as fortunate enough to wake
24     up with Joella Folds, but I did wake up with Ian
25     MacNeil -- no pun intended.


 1  1293                 I would like to come at this from a
 2     different perspective, from the seniors' perspective of
 3     the CBC.  I think it is of paramount importance.  I am
 4     in my 78th year, so I have been around a long time and
 5     have been listening for a long time.
 6  1294                 I have been an activist all my life. 
 7     The people in our organization, ironically enough,
 8     Nelson and all the people on the executive of the
 9     Council, were former members of the executives of the
10     Unemployed Workers Union and the Steelworkers Union, so
11     we have been through the piece.
12  1295                 We have always been strong supporters
13     of CBC, particularly local programming.
14  1296                 As I said, on occasion I got on with
15     Ian, and his predecessors, and sometime I even got on
16     with Rex Murphy.  And that is not always easy.
17  1297                 I want to point out that it is
18     important, not only to the academics and the actors --
19     and we all realize how important it is to local culture
20     and the actors and actresses and the performers on Cape
21     Breton Island, but also to senior citizens.
22  1298                 We are sometimes left out, and I
23     certainly resent that as a senior.
24  1299                 I do partake sometimes in "Maritime
25     Noon".  In fact, two weeks ago, just prior to the


 1     strike, the guest was talking about Seniors Year, and I
 2     was fortunate enough to get on that program also with
 3     Kostas Salibrasos.  This is what we would miss the
 4     most.  That is what we miss the most now.
 5  1300                 We do, as seniors, listen to the
 6     radio a lot, and we certainly listen to CBC.  There is
 7     nobody in the world that can convince our organization
 8     that any other news broadcaster in Cape Breton, or in
 9     Canada, can surpass the CBC in education, news,
10     culture, the whole gamut.
11  1301                 As I said before, we certainly
12     support the CBC programming.
13  1302                 Quite recently, we had a local talk
14     show and somebody in their wisdom decided that we were
15     getting people like myself to come in person, or an
16     ex-steel worker would use these radios too much to
17     create a negative image.
18  1303                 I am in my 78th year, so I don't know
19     what has been so positive about Cape Breton when I
20     talked to that aspect.
21  1304                 At least CBC in "Information
22     Morning", they have seen fit to facilitate people like
23     myself and my colleagues on the Council, and anybody
24     who wishes to call every Thursday from 8:00 to 9:00
25     a.m., before the strike, to have a call-in show.  I


 1     think that is what educates people like myself and my
 2     colleagues.
 3  1305                 Thanks very much.  If there are any
 4     questions you would like to ask me, I am prepared to
 5     answer them.
 6  1306                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am tempted to ask
 7     who you woke up with this morning, but...
 8  1307                 I was going to say maybe we will just
 9     keep the transcript away from your wives.
10  1308                 Mr. Stewart.
11                                                        1950
12  1309                 M. STEWART:  Merci.
13  1310                 Je voudrais inviter maintenant M.
14     Yvon Samson à faire sa présentation.
16  1311                 M. SAMSON:  Merci, Messieurs les
17     commissaires.
18  1312                 Tout d'abord, j'aimerais vous
19     remercier de tenir ces audiences à l'extérieur de la
20     région d'Ottawa.  Puisque j'y ai travaillé depuis 17
21     ans dans le passé, je vois très bien que le CRTC et
22     l'ensemble de la routine d'Ottawa peut envahir beaucoup
23     de temps.
24  1313                 Tout d'abord, je suis Yvon Samson. 
25     Je suis maintenant résident de l'Isle Madame située au


 1     sud-est du Cap Breton.  Cette île de 17 kilomètres
 2     carrés a une population d'origine acadienne de 80 pour
 3     cent, dont 2 800 des 4 100 habitants parlent
 4     quotidiennement le français à la maison.
 5  1314                 Présentement, je suis un consultant
 6     auprès d'entreprises et des associations, un des rares
 7     consultants qui offrent des services en français et en
 8     anglais.  Je suis également Président du Conseil
 9     scolaire acadien provincial, le seul conseil scolaire
10     qui administre et contrôle les écoles acadiennes en
11     Nouvelle-Écosse.
12  1315                 Comme vous êtes en mesure de
13     constater, les services de Radio-Canada radio et
14     télévision sont indispensables pour les communautés
15     acadiennes en Nouvelle-Écosse et plus particulièrement
16     pour la communauté acadienne du comté de Richmond. 
17     Nous ne recevons ces services que depuis 1971, soit 28
18     ans passés.  Pour les 3 200 francophones du comté de
19     Richmond, Radio-Canada est le seul outil de
20     radiodiffusion en français qui contribue à son
21     épanouissement comme communauté en milieu minoritaire.
22  1316                 J'aimerais profiter de cette occasion
23     pour remercier les membres du CRTC pour votre décision
24     récente de permettre à TVA d'étendre son signal sur les
25     services de câble à travers du pays.  Cette décision


 1     augmente le choix télévisuel des Canadiennes et
 2     Canadiens d'expression française.
 3  1317                 Comme vous le savez sans doute, le
 4     câblodistributeur de la région de l'Isle Madame refuse
 5     de diffuser le service RDI dans sa programmation. 
 6     J'estime que cette situation perdurera dans la région
 7     en ce qui concerne les chaînes spécialisées que
 8     Radio-Canada désire mettre en place, à moins que le
 9     CRTC décide de rendre ces services obligatoires, ce qui
10     n'a pas été fait dans le cas de RDI et ce que vous avez
11     fait dans le cas de TVA.
12  1318                 Personnellement, j'ai décidé
13     d'installer les services de Bell ExpressVu qui m'offre
14     la plupart des services disponibles en français au
15     Canada.  Je dois exprimer toutefois ma déception que ce
16     fournisseur de services ne diffuse pas des émissions
17     d'information provenant de Moncton et de Halifax,
18     plutôt de Toronto et Montréal.  C'est une anomalie à
19     corriger, bien que pour la première fois, j'ai deux
20     bulletins d'information qui proviennent de Moncton. 
21     Avant, dans les années 80, on pouvait recevoir ces deux
22     bulletins d'information qui provenaient de cette
23     station.
24  1319                 Comme vous le savez certainement, les
25     services sont très dispendieux puisque les équipements


 1     doivent être achetés.  Cette option n'est pas
 2     disponible pour la plupart des citoyens et des
 3     citoyennes de ma région puisque leur revenu moyen est
 4     au dernier rang des comtés en Nouvelle-Écosse,
 5     c'est-à-dire 17 000 $ par famille.
 6  1320                 En ce qui a trait aux services de
 7     Radio-Canada, je dois avouer qu'il y a une amélioration
 8     dans la qualité et l'étendue des émissions provenant
 9     des divers centres de production.  De plus, bien qu'il
10     y ait une couverture accrue dans les bulletins de
11     nouvelles au niveau national, il semble que les
12     nouvelles proviennent en majorité du Québec ou du
13     Canada central.
14  1321                 Concernant le centre de production
15     local de Halifax, il continue à servir les communautés
16     acadiennes de la Nouvelle-Écosse et de Terre-Neuve,
17     donc deux provinces, bien que la grève des techniciens
18     touche actuellement le service de "CBIF Bonjour" du
19     matin.
20  1322                 Il est important de couvrir les
21     nouvelles de la capitale provinciale.  Cependant, les
22     compressions budgétaires du gouvernement fédéral
23     affectent la quantité et la qualité des services dans
24     les communautés acadiennes au niveau local.  Par
25     exemple, au cours des années 1980, les Affaires


 1     publique du Centre de production télévisuelle de
 2     Moncton couvraient les dossiers en Nouvelle-Écosse
 3     d'une façon plus approfondie.  En d'autres mots, il n'y
 4     avait pas seulement des entrevues qui se faisaient mais
 5     il y avait un réel échange entre la personne de
 6     l'émission et les gens qui faisaient partie de cette
 7     émission-là.  Aujourd'hui, ce service n'est plus
 8     disponible.
 9  1323                 À chaque année, la communauté
10     acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse doit demander la
11     couverture des Jeux de l'Acadie, qui est un événement
12     sportif provincial, de la part de Radio-Canada.  Après
13     les négociations avec les responsables à Moncton, ils
14     offrent de couvrir l'événement mais en réduisant le
15     temps de diffusion.
16  1324                 Nous devons également demander pour
17     que certaines émissions soient diffusées localement
18     comme, par exemple, l'émission "CBIF Bonjour". 
19     Pourtant, Radio-Canada a l'avantage de se rapprocher
20     des communautés qu'elle dessert et sensibiliser la
21     population aux services qu'elle offre aux auditrices et
22     aux auditeurs.
23  1325                 Je crois que la Société Radio-Canada
24     doit continuer son rôle de diffuseur public national et
25     aura, je l'espère, les moyens financiers pour rejoindre


 1     et diffuser les émissions d'intérêt pour les régions
 2     desservies.
 3  1326                 Radio-Canada section française a une
 4     longue histoire de productions canadiennes puisqu'elle
 5     produit des émissions et des bulletins de nouvelles
 6     exclusivement en français, et ce, malgré les
 7     compressions, et couvre l'actualité dans les quatre
 8     provinces de l'Atlantique.  C'est quand même un
 9     territoire très étendu, similaire à l'Ontario, si on le
10     regarde en termes de superficie.
11  1327                 D'après moi, Radio-Canada secteur
12     francophone doit faire connaître à Québec et ailleurs
13     l'existence des communautés francophones et acadiennes. 
14     Les émissions et les bulletins de nouvelles de
15     Radio-Canada français sont différents des autres
16     radiodiffuseurs puisque les services sont en français. 
17     En effet, c'est le seul outil de radiodiffusion capable
18     de produire des émissions et des bulletins de nouvelles
19     en français dans notre région.  Il n'y a pas d'autre
20     radio dans la région du comté de Richmond.
21  1328                 Sans cet outil de communication, les
22     communautés acadiennes de la Nouvelle-Écosse, et en
23     particulier le comté de Richmond, seraient dépourvues
24     d'une véhicule de diffusion de langue française et de
25     la culture acadienne moderne.


 1  1329                 Je recommande que les émissions de
 2     Radio-Canada, Centre de production Halifax, couvrent
 3     davantage les régions acadiennes de la Nouvelle-Écosse
 4     par l'accroissement de ses heures locales de
 5     production.  Cette recommandation implique
 6     l'accroissement de journalistes en région.
 7  1330                 À l'heure actuelle, les journalistes
 8     sont basés à Halifax et doivent couvrir les régions de
 9     cette localité.  La majorité des Acadiens vivent en
10     milieu rural loin de Halifax et les journalistes se
11     déplacent principalement lorsque certains dossiers de
12     la communauté acadienne deviennent volatiles ou
13     déchirants.  Parfois, il y a des choses qui sont un
14     succès dans nos régions et malheureusement ils ne sont
15     pas couverts parce que les journalistes doivent
16     concentrer sur des choses qui sont expressives et
17     parfois ça ne nous donne pas la vraie image de ce que
18     la communauté vit et les succès de la communauté.
19  1331                 Je recommande également que
20     Radio-Canada se rapproche davantage des communautés
21     acadiennes en produisant une partie des émissions à
22     partir des communautés locales.  Pour ce faire, la
23     Société Radio-Canada doit se doter d'un plan d'action,
24     de production d'émissions telles que "Déclic" et "CBIF
25     Bonjour" dans chacune des régions acadiennes.  Cette


 1     initiative pourrait augmenter les cotes d'écoute et
 2     permettre une sensibilisation communautaire accrue de
 3     résistance de la Société Radio-Canada.  De plus, les
 4     journalistes seraient plus sensibles aux particularités
 5     locales et régionales de la communauté acadienne.
 6  1332                 Le Canada est la somme des régions
 7     desservies par la Société Radio-Canada.  La Société
 8     doit refléter les régions dans ses émissions nationales
 9     et couvrir les régions francophones et acadiennes où
10     elles se trouvent.  Les émissions de Radio-Canada
11     secteur français sont déjà différentes, sont déjà
12     uniques, et sont déjà essentielles, par rapport à
13     celles de la section anglaise et des autres
14     radiodiffuseurs dans la région.
15  1333                 Il reste que Radio-Canada doit
16     continuer à accroître sa présence en région car son
17     rôle est crucial pour le développement et
18     l'épanouissement des communautés francophones et
19     acadiennes.
20  1334                 Merci.
21  1335                 LE PRÉSIDENT:  Merci,
22     Monsieur Samson.
23  1336                 Mr. Stewart.
24                                                        2000
25  1337                 MR. STEWART:  Now I invite Mr. Walter


 1     MacKinnon to make his presentation.
 3  1338                 MR. MacKINNON:  Mr. Chairman, my
 4     first comment is that I feel somewhat out of place here
 5     tonight, because when I suggest to somebody "do they
 6     remember this or remember that about radio", they said
 7     to me:  "We weren't even born then."
 8  1339                 Apparently, according to Danny, who
 9     is only 78, he was a little boy, and I remember him as
10     a little boy.
11  1340                 The things I remember -- I must say
12     that somebody did agree with me that we used to make
13     crystal sets.  We made radio crystal sets.
14  1341                 I appreciate the fact that the
15     discussions this evening are intended to focus on the
16     future role of the CBC rather than its role in the
17     past.  Nevertheless, I hope you will allow me a moment
18     to describe the influence of the CBC on those of us who
19     were very young, or relatively young, when in 1936 CBC
20     radio was born.
21  1342                 I know it may seem strange now, but
22     as a young boy here in Cape Breton I knew more about
23     Britain and Portugal and New England -- we used to call
24     it the Boston states -- the West Indies and Eastern
25     Europe than we did about Canada.  We still referred to


 1     Britain as the mother country.
 2  1343                 We were very familiar with Portugal
 3     because of the fact that Portuguese fishermen visited
 4     our shores on a regular basis and were a familiar sight
 5     in our communities.
 6  1344                 My parents spoke Gaelic to each other
 7     and to us, and so Scotland seemed much closer to them
 8     and to us than did British Columbia or Manitoba.
 9  1345                 Many of our neighbours were
10     immigrants from the West Indies and Eastern Europe,
11     working in the steel mills and in the coal mines, and
12     we knew a great deal about their homelands.  In fact,
13     our wives learned from them how to make cabbage rolls.
14  1346                 Then came the CBC.  For the first
15     time we began to hear about this country called Canada. 
16     We began to realize that we were capable of creating,
17     or indeed were well on the way to creating a unique
18     society of our own.  And slowly but surely we began to
19     feel it was time to cut the apron strings.
20  1347                 And this in spite of the fact that
21     the most culturally invasive society in the world was
22     next door.
23  1348                 I must say here, Mr. Chairman, that
24     Canada means a great deal to me.
25  1349                 Suffice it to say, Mr. Chairman, that


 1     the CBC was an integral element in the Canadian way of
 2     life, as interesting and as important as any of our
 3     cherished social programs.  CBC has shaped this country
 4     to an extent unequalled by any other institution.
 5  1350                 It is not too far a reach, I suggest,
 6     that our excellent reputation throughout the world has
 7     been the result in large measure to our having the CBC.
 8  1351                 I might just add here, Mr. Chairman,
 9     that if you have travelled in foreign countries --
10  1352                 You know, seniors now, like seniors
11     in the past, are much better off than any other group
12     of seniors in our history.  So once in a while my wife
13     and I will go to Europe, to England.  The way we are
14     treated, once we say we are Canadians, is amazing.  I
15     think a lot of credit must go to the CBC and the
16     country that they have helped to create.
17  1353                 As to the future, I suggest, Mr.
18     Chairman, that we recognize that the number of Canadian
19     people per square mile, the number of Canadians per
20     square mile in a particular region, must not be the
21     criteria for the presence of the CBC.
22  1354                 The CBC should not be in business of
23     manufacturing, like manufacturing plastic buckets or
24     cars.  Its task is to contribute to a national
25     identity, to shape a more civilized society, to strive


 1     for excellence in all its endeavours.  Every Canadian,
 2     wherever they may live in this country, must be made to
 3     feel as important as any other.
 4  1355                 It can be, and it will be, a rough
 5     road to travel at times.  But the destination, I
 6     suggest, is one which might some day be viewed by the
 7     rest of the world as an example to follow.
 8  1356                 We have created, in my humble
 9     opinion, a country which is peaceful and civilized.  We
10     have been very fortunate, you know.  We have never
11     suffered war on our land, like a great many other
12     countries.  So I guess we have a greater responsibility
13     to develop a society and a country that the rest of the
14     world can emulate.
15  1357                 The CBC can be the instrument by
16     which the best in drama, or music, or documentaries,
17     news and public affairs, and most importantly the
18     uniqueness of every part of Canada, big or small, can
19     be made available to all Canadians.  Not because it is
20     good business, but because it is a venue through which
21     the best among us may have a voice.
22  1358                 I realize that the CBC has been
23     subjected to criticism all through its history, right
24     from the beginning.  I would remind the people here
25     tonight that I remember distinctly the first suggestion


 1     that we should have a universal, publicly-financed
 2     health care plan.  If it had been put to a vote, it
 3     would have been turned down.
 4  1359                 So I suggest that if the criticism is
 5     directed at a program because it is not well-done or it
 6     is improperly researched, that is one thing.  If on the
 7     other hand the CBC continues to do what it has done so
 8     well in the past, to be honest and forthright in its
 9     presentation of political, economic, cultural and
10     historical issues that are peculiarly Canadian, then it
11     is fulfilling its responsibility.
12  1360                 No doubt at times it will find itself
13     in disfavour by the majority.  I realize that we think
14     that in a democracy the majority should rule, but I
15     think we should step back from that.  The majority is
16     not always right or indeed right most of the time.
17  1361                 Mr. Chairman, in conclusion, I want
18     to emphasize again the influence that the CBC had on my
19     generation.  My generation was the generation that came
20     through a depression and a war.  Without the CBC, I
21     don't think we would have the kind of country we have
22     today, that is admired around the world.  It is not
23     perfect, but as one who served for four and a half
24     years overseas, it was worth the effort.
25  1362                 Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.


 1  1363                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 2     MacKinnon.
 3  1364                 MR. STEWART:  I now would invite Mr.
 4     Schneider to make his presentation.
 5  1365                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Schneider is
 6     not here.
 7                                                        2010
 8  1366                 MR. STEWART:  Is Mrs. Ruth Schneider
 9     in the room?
10  1367                 It would appear not.
11  1368                 Mr. Andrew Cochran, I would invite
12     you to make your presentation, sir.
14  1369                 MR. COCHRAN:  Thank you very much,
15     and good evening.
16  1370                 Commissioners, I recognize that yours
17     is an unenviable task.  Such is the nature of
18     Canadians' relationship with their CBC that everyone
19     has an opinion of what it should be, is not, or can be. 
20     And that is healthy, I think.
21  1371                 I also respect how much work you have
22     ahead of you, along with your colleagues, of absorbing
23     and weighing all the advice Canadians will be giving
24     you.  I wish you good fortune and lots of wisdom in
25     your task in the days ahead.


 1  1372                 I must say I am delighted that you
 2     are starting here in Cape Breton, because, as my
 3     recently adopted second home, I think that there is
 4     something going on here that speaks volumes about the
 5     CBC and stands out here in Sydney, in Cape Breton, in a
 6     way that you will not see or feel in Halifax or
 7     Montreal or Toronto or Vancouver, those other centres
 8     of Canadian production.  And I stress now "those other
 9     ones".
10  1373                 Right about now, if you went out
11     these doors, the outside doors, had a pair of
12     binoculars and looked straight across the harbour, you
13     would see around 100 people wrapping up another day of
14     work in the early 20th century -- leaving another day
15     in 1904, to be exact, to rejoin us here in 1999.
16  1374                 The place there is called Filmscape
17     Studios, Cape Breton's new sound stage.  As of this
18     evening, our crew is just finishing Day 98 of shooting
19     for our new prime time family drama series "Pit Pony". 
20     Our customer is the CBC.
21  1375                 It used to be years ago, when I first
22     started in this business, I was a reporter -- and I
23     know Commissioner Langford has a background as a
24     reporter as well.
25  1376                 There are several ways to look at


 1     this story.  One way is the cultural perspective.  Cape
 2     Breton now has its own piece of prime time with a story
 3     about Cape Breton.  I think it is an important story
 4     for Canada and ultimately the world.  I know it is a
 5     story about community, ingenuity, innovation,
 6     perseverance, rising above adversity, and, while never
 7     taking yourself too seriously, about hope.
 8  1377                 Or you can look at it from the
 9     business perspective.  This is an independent
10     production, like others, where the CBC is the
11     foundation customer and the ultimate financial risk is
12     ours to assume, but where the broadcast shelves of this
13     customer had an opening for a series that is
14     passionately about Cape Breton and made in Cape Breton.
15  1378                 These cultural and business
16     considerations have become hallmarks of the CBC, and I
17     am sure you will hear from other of my colleagues in
18     the production industry that that experience is
19     duplicated in production around the country.
20  1379                 Then there is a third factor which I
21     think is uniquely important here, and that is the
22     economic impact to this community.  This is not only a
23     series about Cape Breton, made in Cape Breton, but a
24     series that is being made by Cape Bretoners; 75 per
25     cent of our crew is from Cape Breton.


 1  1380                 I do hope, as the eternal optimist,
 2     that we will have a long run for our series here.  But
 3     when we inevitably finish production, those skills will
 4     stay in Cape Breton for the next producer looking for
 5     his own or her own version of magic.
 6  1381                 That will be the long-term legacy of
 7     this series being here, the skills transfer.
 8  1382                 The short-term benefits are equally
 9     compelling.  Over the past eight months, our local
10     payroll has been $2.4 million.  Another $2.7 million
11     has been spent on local goods and services.  By the
12     time those $5.1 million in direct spending finish
13     travelling through the local economy, the real economic
14     impact to Cape Breton Island -- and this is according
15     to the government folks that build economic models --
16     will mean $23 million in activity.
17  1383                 My point is that all this flows from
18     the CBC.  Uniquely amongst Canadian broadcasters, it
19     was the CBC saying yes to a series about a boy and his
20     horse at the turn of the century in Cape Breton.
21  1384                 This is not an isolated incident. 
22     This is not a single time that this has happened in
23     this region.  The story has been repeated over the past
24     ten years of my direct experience in Atlantic Canada in
25     the production industry, where it has been the CBC,


 1     amongst any others, that has been the engine of
 2     independent production here, to all intents and
 3     purposes alone amongst other Canadian broadcasters in
 4     this region, in helping form and create an independent
 5     production industry.
 6  1385                 Together, this is the part of Canada
 7     where, after all, the CBC and independent producers
 8     learned that regionalism is a state of mind.  Why not
 9     produce network children shows, drama, comedy, variety,
10     news, all from beyond the banks of the Don River.  And
11     that is what the CBC has done.  We now have an industry
12     and, as a region, we are better for it.
13  1386                 I could go on this evening with
14     several comments I have as a life-long viewer of CBC,
15     who appreciates the programming that it has, or indeed
16     as a former employee of the CBC.  But I will leave that
17     for others more learned than me and for the long
18     horizon of submissions that you have before you as you
19     contemplate the future of the corporation.
20  1387                 As I say, as unenviable as your task
21     may be, it is vitally important.  Canada, and Atlantic
22     Canada, needs the CBC.
23  1388                 Doing your task, I suspect, will
24     require lots of ingenuity, innovation, perseverance,
25     rising above adversity and -- while never taking


 1     yourself too seriously -- about hope.  But then again,
 2     that's why you started here in Cape Breton, isn't it.
 3  1389                 Thank you.
 4  1390                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 5     Cochran.
 6  1391                 Just one question:  You are right
 7     that the CBC has been particularly successful as -- I
 8     don't know what the best phrase is, an incubator,
 9     whatever, in terms of getting the production business
10     going in this part of the country.  And outside of
11     Toronto it has probably been particularly successful in
12     the country in terms of developing activity in this
13     region.
14  1392                 What in particular can one attribute
15     to that success with respect to the CBC?
16  1393                 I know there have been other
17     activities, like the Film Corporation, and so on.
18  1394                 MR. COCHRAN:  There are a number of
19     ways to come at that.  In fairness, I think some of it
20     goes back however many years.  Your memory would be
21     probably better than mine, Commissioner Colville, but I
22     am guessing 15, 20 years ago when the CRTC directed the
23     CBC to start looking beyond the traditional production
24     centres of Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver.  As close
25     an affinity as I have with several of my friends and


 1     colleagues at the CBC, I think sometimes a little shove
 2     in the past has been necessary.
 3  1395                 I think probably the larger point is
 4     that it was embraced and taken seriously and I think
 5     moved on to become, as I said, a state of mind, where
 6     people got past the perceptual difficulty of how a
 7     production could take place outside of Toronto.
 8  1396                 Fifteen, 20 years ago there was an
 9     issue of -- whether it was a perception or credibility,
10     I don't know, but it was not as accepted an idea as it
11     has become.
12  1397                 I think the CBC, probably for a
13     couple of reasons, spent more time, did its homework. 
14     I think a large part of that was having a strong
15     presence in this region through the regional
16     headquarters, particularly the regional headquarters
17     populated by some people who really wanted to make
18     something happen from Atlantic Canada and actively
19     sought out those of us in the independent production
20     community, and sat us down and said:  "What can we do? 
21     How can we make this work?  Here is what we need.  What
22     do you need?  How do we make this happen?"
23  1398                 That sort of on-the-ground
24     partnership and mutual self-interest was an important
25     fact, fuelled or supported by the mentality back in


 1     Toronto that it would be a good thing to have
 2     production coming from outside of Toronto; that it was
 3     part of the new sub-text of the corporation.
 4  1399                 All those things came together.
 5  1400                 Then there is the fact of the
 6     risk-taking that the culture of the CBC was designed to
 7     accept and to encourage.  That was another factor.
 8  1401                 A lot of times we would be mounting
 9     productions here with certainly people in the art
10     department, people in the camera department, music
11     composers, all the key positions in productions that
12     were not necessarily heard of, were not on an approved
13     list -- not an approved list, but the accepted crowd,
14     if you will, of doing that stuff in Toronto.  And to
15     their credit, people at CBC took the leap of faith and
16     said:  "Sure, let's try it.  Show us what you can do."
17  1402                 Fortunately, as you know, Maritimers
18     love a challenge.  They rose to it and I think in every
19     case I am glad to say they delivered programs that
20     Canadians enjoyed and helped the CBC towards its goal
21     of Canadianizing its schedule.
22  1403                 As you can tell, I am thinking about
23     this out loud as I say it.  To organize the answer, it
24     would be, first, a bit of a prod.  I think the system
25     works.  I think the deliberation that the CRTC takes


 1     and the advice that you give a corporation like the CBC
 2     is listened to and adhered to.  So first a general
 3     prod.
 4  1404                 But then a receptiveness to that, an
 5     openness to that, an ability to take risks and
 6     encourage innovation that then met with a group of
 7     people who were anxious to do it.
 8  1405                 That is, I think in a nutshell, what
 9     happened.
10  1406                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  This region has
11     been particularly successful in respect to television
12     with respect to your program "Theatre Tugboat" and now
13     "Pit Pony", and "Codco" and "22 Minutes" and "Street
14     Sense" and "Black Harbour".
15  1407                 Do you think it has reached the stage
16     now where it would be self-sustaining?
17  1408                 MR. COCHRAN:  Where the independent
18     production would be self-sustaining?
19  1409                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, relative to
20     the CBC.
21  1410                 MR. COCHRAN:  I still don't follow
22     the question, sir.
23  1411                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you think there
24     is some particular action that would have to be taken
25     now?  Now that it has developed to the stage that it


 1     has, do you think it has gained a momentum that would
 2     keep on going?
 3  1412                 MR. COCHRAN:  There certainly is a
 4     momentum.  There is no doubt about that.  And several
 5     of my associates in the production industry here, like
 6     ourselves, are finding sales outside of Canada help
 7     support future production.  There is no doubt about it.
 8  1413                 But it does come back to that phrase
 9     I used briefly here of shelf space.  None of these
10     programs happen without the customer being the initial
11     believer.
12  1414                 The idea of a show like "Pit Pony",
13     after we have been fortunate to have some success with
14     some of the other programs that we have done and have
15     some contacts in the international market, and the
16     ability to mount productions and a bit of our own
17     momentum, if I can be immodest --
18  1415                 In order to start "Pit Pony", in
19     order to create this whole new endeavour, it needs the
20     customer that sees the potential of that, that has the
21     risk-taking ability and -- oddly enough maybe for a
22     public corporation -- the entrepreneurial sense, if you
23     will, to see that there may be a new franchise that can
24     be started here, a new area of the schedule that can be
25     developed.


 1  1416                 It needs somebody to take the leap of
 2     faith.  And that is not something, at least in my
 3     experience and those of the people that I talk to in
 4     this industry in this region, has no t been the case
 5     with other broadcasters.  It has been the case with the
 6     CBC.
 7  1417                 That shelf space, that ability for
 8     somebody to say "yes, there is a program I want to talk
 9     to you about; yes, there is something that we are
10     willing to advance and get going", the need for that is
11     only growing, as the competitive environment increases.
12  1418                 Too often, what the competitive
13     environment is doing is looking for the fast buck
14     program, the one that can be made quickly, can be made
15     for a low price, can be churned through the system
16     quickly.  More than ever before, now is the time for a
17     public broadcaster who will take the considered time to
18     look at a program on its merits and have the patience
19     to work with it and develop it so that it can really
20     take root and develop for the long term.
21  1419                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for that.
22  1420                 Mr. Stewart.
23                                                        2025
24  1421                 MR. STEWART:  Thank you.  I will now
25     ask Mr. Neil Livingstone to make his presentation.


 1  1422                 I am told he is not in the room.
 2  1423                 The program lists Mr. Frank Gaudet as
 3     a presenter, but of course he made a presentation this
 4     afternoon.  So he will not be here this evening.
 5  1424                 I would now call upon Ms Johanna
 6     Padelt to make her presentation.
 8  1425                 MS PADELT:  I came here this evening,
 9     and drove for over an hour over very bumpy extremely
10     wet road, in fog.  I came here because I never wrote my
11     farewell letter to Peter Gzowski.  I felt very guilty,
12     and I felt I had to do something to express my
13     appreciation for what the CBC has meant to my life, to
14     let people know how much the CBC means to me.
15  1426                 I know I am following a lot of very
16     eloquent people here, and I am going to make my
17     statements short because other people have said it
18     probably better than I can say it.
19  1427                 I appreciate the opportunity to be
20     here, and thank you very much for holding this meeting
21     here.
22  1428                 I am a crafts person.  I emigrated to
23     Canada in 1971 from the United States.  When I was
24     talking about coming to this meeting with my good
25     friend Ron, we talked about whether we would go and


 1     what we might say, and Ron said:  "Isn't this what we
 2     moved here for?" -- meaning the CBC.
 3  1429                 Yes, in a lot of ways.  As people
 4     have said before, the CBC is Canada.  When you come
 5     from another country and hear programming of the sort
 6     that we heard in 1971, and particularly for a while I
 7     must say Peter Gzowski was the CBC for me.  He was
 8     there for a few years and then he left, and it was a
 9     tremendous loss.
10  1430                 I live in a very rural isolated part
11     of Cape Breton.  Being a crafts person, I am isolated. 
12     Living rurally, I am isolated.  The CBC connects me to
13     my community.  It connects me to the larger Cape Breton
14     community; it connects me to my province; it connects
15     me to my country.
16  1431                 We need the CBC to hold this country
17     together.  Many of you have spoken about the need for
18     local programming, and I wholeheartedly agree that our
19     local programming should be strong, should reach out
20     across the country.
21  1432                 I also believe programs, however,
22     like "This Country n the Morning" had a vision when
23     Peter was there that reached out across the country
24     into the local communities.  I appreciate being
25     connected to the rest of Canada through the CBC,


 1     sitting in my little workshop pounding at my silver,
 2     hearing other people, other crafts people in B.C.
 3     saying they are doing the same thing and how glad they
 4     are to have the CBC.  And we are connected to each
 5     other.
 6  1433                 I remember Peter's great program when
 7     the Winnipeg flood was happening.  It reached people's
 8     hearts across the country and raised hundreds of
 9     thousands of dollars.  I appreciated being able to be
10     part of that community, not suffering like they were,
11     but really being able to be part of their suffering;
12     being able to call up afterwards and give my donation.
13  1434                 There are so many creative people in
14     this country.  We need a broadcaster that uses and
15     presents this talent.
16  1435                 When making my remarks, many of them
17     are in reference to CBC radio because, as someone else
18     mentioned before, radio has a power.  It can be part of
19     your life all day long, whereas television cannot.  I
20     do appreciate a lot of the cultural programming that
21     CBC television offers, but it is CBC radio that
22     influences my life more.
23  1436                 We need this publicly funded national
24     broadcaster.  There have been so many cutbacks.  We
25     need to increase the funding to get the CBC programming


 1     back to what it used to be.
 2  1437                 This is something that I have heard
 3     all evening:  If it could only be what it was, maybe it
 4     would be in pretty good shape.
 5  1438                 Right now, a third of CBC radio
 6     programming is repeat programming.  As a person who
 7     sits in my isolated little workshop pounding on my
 8     silver and making my jewellery, I realize now how often
 9     I say "oh" and I actually turn it off because I have
10     heard it before.
11  1439                 On local and regional programming,
12     our focus should be an independent broadcaster, as was
13     mentioned before as well.  We don't want it to be
14     interfered with by government.
15  1440                 Phil Richardson calls himself a sad
16     goat, and there is a reason for that.  I think in some
17     ways all of us who love the CBC can all call ourselves
18     sad -- maybe not a goat, but sad anyway.
19  1441                 I am sad that this government does
20     not have the vision or the will to preserve, enhance
21     and expand this unique Canadian institution, the CBC,
22     which has the power to knit together the fabric of this
23     large, diverse and wonderful country and at the same
24     time allow people to be in touch with their local
25     communities.


 1  1442                 Thank you very much.
 2  1443                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 3  1444                 If Ms Mitton gave you the money to
 4     make CBC radio programming put back to what it used to
 5     be, what would it sound like -- setting aside the fact
 6     that Mr. Gzowski may not want to come back; that he may
 7     want to really retire this time.
 8  1445                 MS PADELT:  As I said before, Peter
 9     had a vision.  But to me all the things that people
10     have been saying, he had that in his own vision.  And
11     somehow, even though he was sitting there in Toronto a
12     lot of the time, he was able to make us feel like a big
13     family.  I think that is important.
14  1446                 I think the program that has replaced
15     it does not have that feeling.
16  1447                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is not a
17     question of money, then, not necessarily.
18  1448                 MS PADELT:  That one is not. 
19     However, money would be not to have all this repeat
20     programming.  It would be what happened to -- Bill
21     Richardson is a very creative person.  Why does he have
22     to host this program where he is having to play all
23     these things that are repeats?
24  1449                 I think just more diversity of
25     programming; as some of the people have said, more


 1     local programming, French programming, Mi'Kmaw
 2     programming.  It would just sound like you have a full
 3     day of new things coming at you rather than a day where
 4     you know this is going to be repeated now, so I think I
 5     will turn it off.
 6  1450                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 7     much.
 8  1451                 Mr. Stewart.
 9                                                        2033
10  1452                 M. STEWART:  Merci, Monsieur le
11     président.
12  1453                 Maintenant, j'inviterais Mme Gisèle
13     Blanc-Lavoie à faire sa présentation.
15  1454                 MME BLANC-LAVOIE:  Bonjour, messieurs
16     et mesdames.
17  1455                 Je voudrais représenter la Fédération
18     acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse, les 1 500 personnes
19     francophones, d'après les statistiques, qui habitent à
20     Sydney.  Comme la personne qui a parlé en français l'a
21     dit avant moi, à Sydney, nous sommes entre deux régions
22     acadiennes.  Donc, nous sommes très très bien placés
23     entre Cheticamp et l'Isle Madame, mais malheureusement,
24     nous n'avons pas accès à beaucoup de choses.  Pourtant,
25     notre situation géographique se présente très bien.


 1  1456                 Premièrement, je parlerai des accès
 2     que nous avons; deuxièmement, je parlerai de la
 3     programmation; et troisièmement, j'essaierai de
 4     présenter ce que nous pourrions améliorer à la Société
 5     Radio-Canada pour une meilleure communication entre les
 6     sept régions acadiennes de la Nouvelle-Écosse.
 7  1457                 J'aimerais faire une petite
 8     comparaison, c'est que dans les années 70, nous étions
 9     à Moncton.  C'était au moment où Radio-Canada
10     commençait aussi et je trouve que c'est merveilleux
11     parce que en Nouvelle-Écosse, en ce moment,
12     Radio-Canada commence aussi et je pense que c'est très
13     important de pouvoir être optimiste pour pallier à
14     l'assimilation qui est très importante.  Donc, je
15     soulignerais -- et je remercie le CRTC de nous
16     écouter -- le rôle de Radio-Canada contre cette
17     assimilation galopante.
18  1458                 Pour l'accès, donc, nous avons la
19     radio depuis 25 ans.  Elle est très bonne.  La Première
20     chaîne, je ne comprends toujours pas ce que ça veut
21     dire.  Tous les matins, je fais comme Mme Johanna. 
22     J'écoute la radio et on me dit que c'est la Première
23     chaîne mais je ne sais pas pourquoi la Première chaîne. 
24     Personne ne nous l'a expliqué.
25  1459                 Il y a une autre chose aussi.  Nous


 1     sommes très bien placés, comme je l'ai déjà dit, mais
 2     nous ne pouvons pas écouter la chaîne de musique
 3     classique.  C'est une chose que je ne comprends pas
 4     depuis 25 ans.  Je le demande à beaucoup de gens et ce
 5     n'est pas possible.
 6  1460                 Par exemple, le samedi après-midi
 7     j'écoute l'opéra en anglais.  La publicité dit que
 8     l'opéra est présentée en français par Radio-Canada mais
 9     je n'arrive pas à la voir à Sydney.  Je suis sûre que
10     c'est un problème de technologie et peut-être que ce
11     n'est pas très difficile à pallier.
12  1461                 Pour la programmation, ce que nous
13     avons ici en Nouvelle-Écosse, c'est de 6 h à 9 h, une
14     seule émission la matin et en semaine seulement.  Le
15     samedi et le dimanche, les francophones et les
16     Acadiennes de la Nouvelle-Écosse n'existent
17     pratiquement pas -- j'exagère un peu -- et je trouve ça
18     très perturbant parce que pendant la semaine c'est
19     fantastique.
20  1462                 De 6 h à 9 h, nous savons ce qui se
21     passe partout ailleurs dans les sept communautés
22     acadiennes, ce qui est très important parce que nous
23     pouvons, comment dirais-je, découvrir ce qu'ils font. 
24     Nous pouvons les copier et lorsqu'on fait de
25     l'animation, c'est très important de savoir ce qui se


 1     fait ailleurs pour le développer dans notre nouvelle
 2     communauté puisque nous venons juste d'acquérir un
 3     centre communautaire.  Donc, je trouve que le samedi et
 4     le dimanche, les jours où les gens peuvent écouter la
 5     radio, là les Néo-Écossais existent très, très peu
 6     parce que tout part de Moncton.
 7  1463                 L'émission du matin est très, très
 8     bonne, mais il y a sept régions acadiennes et nous
 9     avons seulement... par exemple, la région de Sydney ne
10     passe avec ses nouvelles qu'une fois tous les 15 jours. 
11     Je trouve que c'est très, très, très peu parce que si
12     une certaine région acadienne ne passe qu'une fois
13     chaque semaine, d'autres ne passent qu'une fois à tous
14     les 15 jours, ce qui crée des différences.
15  1464                 D'autant plus qu'ici, et vous devez
16     connaître la situation, les Acadiens sont situés dans
17     la région de Clara(ph) mais la centralisation se fait à
18     Halifax.  Donc, tout part d'Halifax et c'est très
19     difficile de relier les régions comme la personne
20     précédente a dit.
21  1465                 Le matin donc nous avons beaucoup de
22     nouvelles mais l'après-midi, les nouvelles s'estompent
23     et à 6 h, lorsque les nouvelles arrivent de Moncton,
24     les Acadiens de la Nouvelle-Écosse ont presque disparu
25     parce que ceux de l'Île-du-Prince-Édouard ou ceux de


 1     Terre-Neuve passent avant.  Ça doit être très difficile
 2     pour les personnes de choisir quelles nouvelles doivent
 3     être, surtout que les nouvelles sont de plus en plus
 4     courtes.
 5  1466                 Pour la programmation, ce que
 6     j'aimerais proposer en Nouvelle-Écosse -- et je pense
 7     que peut-être je ne rêve pas -- j'aimerais proposer une
 8     émission toute la matinée pour la Nouvelle-Écosse avec
 9     les différentes régions de la Nouvelle-Écosse présente. 
10     D'ailleurs, cette émission aurait un rôle éducatif
11     auprès du Conseil scolaire acadien et je pense que
12     c'est le but de Radio-Canada d'avoir un rôle éducatif. 
13     Il pourrait être utilisé dans les écoles.
14  1467                 Ce que j'aimerais aussi c'est plus
15     d'Acadiens sur les ondes.  C'est là que je fais encore
16     la comparaison avec Moncton.  Dans les années 1970,
17     lorsque nous étions à Moncton, nous entendions
18     seulement des Québécois parlés.  Maintenant lorsqu'on
19     est à Moncton, ce sont les Acadiens qui parlent et
20     j'aimerais que la même chose se fasse au niveau de la
21     Nouvelle-Écosse, que les Acadiens de Cheticamp, de
22     l'Isle Madame, de toutes les provinces aient envie de
23     parler, veuillent parler.
24  1468                 Je crois que dans une émission d'une
25     matinée, si cela est possible, ça serait très, très


 1     agréable et ça serait très, très bon contre
 2     l'assimilation aussi parce que les enfants pourraient
 3     entendre leurs parents ou leurs grands-parents parler
 4     et je crois que c'est très important.
 5  1469                 Donc, j'ai dit aussi que toutes les
 6     régions acadiennes devraient être représentées en
 7     ondes.  Ça je l'ai déjà dit.
 8  1470                 À propos du réseau national, de la
 9     radio toujours parce que je suis une fanatique de la
10     radio, je regarde très, très peu la télévision.  Je
11     rejoins un peu ce que disait Mme Johanna.  Je suis
12     dépité par toutes les nouvelles parce qu'on a des
13     nouvelles le matin et ce sont celles que nous avons
14     entendu la veille.  Alors, je trouve que si j'ai écouté
15     les nouvelles à 11 h du soir, le matin à 7 h du matin,
16     je ne veux pas entendre les mêmes nouvelles. 
17     J'aimerais qu'elles soient différentes.
18  1471                 La même chose pour la fin de semaine: 
19     les mêmes nouvelles se répètent...  Le dimanche,
20     j'adore les émissions de Radio-Canada du dimanche matin
21     mais toutes les nouvelles sont les mêmes à chaque
22     heure.  Mais c'est fatigant finalement.  Est-ce que
23     nous sommes des imbéciles?  Est-ce que nous devons
24     avaler les mêmes nouvelles pendant quatre heures de
25     suite alors que les émissions entre sont excellentes.


 1  1472                 Une autre chose aussi:  c'est trop de
 2     rediffusion d'émissions, comme le disait madame tout à
 3     l'heure.  Je trouve, si on écoute la radio une fois,
 4     c'est que l'on aime la radio.  Donc, on ne va pas
 5     l'écouter une deuxième fois.  Je trouve que la
 6     nouveauté est excellente, mais ça c'est naturellement
 7     dû aux coupures et je le déplore beaucoup.
 8  1473                 Une autre chose aussi:  trop
 9     d'émissions faites avec des lignes ouvertes.  Les
10     auditeurs créent l'émission et les journalistes sont au
11     chômage.  Je trouve ça ridicule.  Ce sont les auditeurs
12     qui parlent et les journalistes passent leur temps à
13     leur dire, vous n'avez plus que deux minutes, vous
14     n'avez plus que trois minutes.  Si j'écoute la radio et
15     qu'on est en train de demander à un expert ce qu'il
16     pense, je veux écouter l'expert.  Je ne veux pas
17     écouter le journaliste qui dit, vous n'avez plus que
18     trois minutes, dépêchez-vous ou quelque chose comme ça.
19  1474                 Donc, ça ce sont des critiques
20     générales sur la radio.
21  1475                 Pour la télé, juste quelques petites
22     idées.  Je trouve que les feuilletons historiques faits
23     au Québec sont excellents.  Je trouve qu'au point de
24     vue passé, ce n'est pas passéiste mais ça apprend aux
25     enfants sur leur passé.


 1  1476                 J'aime aussi beaucoup les feuilletons
 2     régionalistes -- ça rejoint ce que disait le
 3     monsieur-là justement -- c'est très, très bien, mais
 4     régionalistes du Québec.  Donc, ça développe les
 5     connaissances des régions au lieu de centrer le tout
 6     sur Montréal, Montréal, toujours Montréal, alors qu'il
 7     y a beaucoup de Québec à l'extérieur.
 8  1477                 Comme le disait Mme Louise Imbeault,
 9     j'aimerais bien qu'il y ait des feuilletons acadiens. 
10     Est-ce que je rêve?  Peut-être que non.  Ça serait
11     fantastique pour la culture acadienne.  Ça serait
12     magnifique d'avoir des feuilletons faits comme les
13     feuilletons faits au Cap Breton, mais faits dans les
14     régions acadiennes.
15  1478                 Je crois, bon, je vais tout
16     simplement conclure.  Il ne faut pas couper notre
17     Société Radio-Canada mais au contraire développer à
18     outrance pour aider à l'animation culturelle car nous
19     en avons beaucoup besoin.
20  1479                 Merci.
21     --- Applause / Applaudissements
22  1480                 LE PRÉSIDENT:  Merci beaucoup,
23     Madame.
24  1481                 Mr. Stewart.
25  1482                 MR. STEWART:  That is the end of the


 1     list, but I will read the names of the people who were
 2     not in the room just in case they are here and wish to
 3     speak.
 4  1483                 Dr. Elizabeth Beaton; Mr. Steven
 5     Downes; Chief Lindsay Marshall; Ms Joan Weeks; Mr.
 6     Schneider; Mrs. Schneider; Mr. Neil Livingstone.
 7  1484                 None of those people are here.
 8  1485                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is there anybody
 9     else here who wanted to make a presentation tonight?
10  1486                 No.
11  1487                 Does anybody who already made a
12     presentation have any further comments they want to
13     make?
14  1488                 Ms Cusack.
15  1489                 MS CUSACK:  For those of you who were
16     not here earlier, I was the second speaker of the day. 
17     It was very interesting, since I heard almost all of
18     the presentations, to think about the consistencies
19     between the presentations.
20  1490                 For the most part, I think you were
21     told today that local programming is vital to our
22     region in Cape Breton and vital to our island cultural
23     interests, vital to our economy, vital for education
24     reasons, and vital to keep people in touch with one
25     another.


 1  1491                 I think almost everyone who spoke
 2     also spoke as Johanna just did, about the importance of
 3     connecting Canadians.  Somebody said earlier from sea
 4     to sea to sea.  It is extremely vital to our national
 5     persona, our national interests as well.
 6  1492                 You raised the question this
 7     afternoon -- and I have not heard it discussed this
 8     evening -- about whether you have the ability, if you
 9     decide to do it, to enforce the hand of government to
10     increase the funding of CBC so that it can continue to
11     foster local programming and so that it can continue to
12     foster regional programming, and the kind of production
13     values that Andrew Cochran spoke about.
14  1493                 I think you do have the power or
15     moral suasion or persuasion.
16  1494                 You said earlier, Mr. Chairperson,
17     that the Act is a matter of interpretation.  As a
18     lawyer, I would say to you that I think you have heard
19     consistently from all of the people from this province
20     who have spoken today their interpretation of the
21     mandate of the CBC.
22  1495                 I doubt very much that you will,
23     other than from private interests, hear anything
24     different as you travel across the country.
25  1496                 As a lawyer, I think that the


 1     interpretation is a little bit narrower than perhaps
 2     you are suggesting; that you do have the ability, and
 3     in fact the duty to attempt to convince government to
 4     do its duty by its own legislation.
 5  1497                 Thank you.
 6  1498                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 7     Ms Cusack.
 8  1499                 I didn't want to give the impression
 9     that we would necessarily take a narrow interpretation
10     of the Act.  We can certainly encourage the government
11     to give CBC the adequate funding to do the job.
12  1500                 One of the issues that we have to
13     wrestle with in addition to that, between ourselves and
14     the corporation, is:  How does the CBC best utilize the
15     money it has, whatever amount that is, in order to
16     serve the needs of Canadians as they feel it is going
17     to serve their needs?
18  1501                 That is really why we are undertaking
19     this exercise to go across the country.
20  1502                 One of the things that struck me
21     again tonight about some of the issues that have been
22     raised here, again as in this afternoon, as you noted,
23     there is a considerable amount of consistency with the
24     session we had this afternoon and the one this evening;
25     and that being a huge focus on radio and how the people


 1     here presented their views, see themselves or hear
 2     themselves, and the importance of their community and
 3     the reflection of their community on CBC radio --
 4     whether we call it One or Two, or AM or FM, or stereo
 5     or mono.
 6  1503                 That is important.  As Mr. Mattocks
 7     mentioned this afternoon, he was worried that there
 8     would be a lot of focus on radio and perhaps not much
 9     on television.
10  1504                 I would invite them to come to the
11     table to respond to what they have heard this evening.
12  1505                 Mr. MacSwain said, for example -- he
13     is not here and I did not pick him because he is not
14     here, but he made this comment -- that he didn't want
15     the CBC concentrating on specialty channels.  Somebody
16     else said -- and I forget who said it now -- that CBC
17     does a particularly good job of news on Newsworld,
18     perhaps not as good a job on the main service.
19  1506                 And then within all of that we heard
20     all of the comments about the importance of radio, and
21     so on.
22  1507                 Mr. Cochran was suggesting one of the
23     challenges we face at the Commission, and of course the
24     CBC does, is:  How does one balance all of these
25     competing challenges in terms of where do you beset


 1     focus your attention in order to satisfy the concerns
 2     and needs that have been raised by folks like
 3     yourselves here tonight?
 4  1508                 I wonder whether anybody has any
 5     further comments on that or comments on some of the
 6     other issues you have heard from each other here
 7     tonight.
 8  1509                 Mr. Kaplin.
 9  1510                 MR. KAPLIN:  Please clarify for me
10     what the CRTC is actually able to do.  My thought is
11     that the CRTC is able to establish the rules by which
12     any particular station can operate.
13  1511                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's right.
14  1512                 MR. KAPLIN:  It doesn't have to be
15     the same rules for every station.
16  1513                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's correct.
17  1514                 MR. KAPLIN:  If you established a set
18     of rules for the CBC, it would be the CBC's job then to
19     meet those standards and to find that funding.  If you
20     established a recommendation -- more than a
21     recommendation, a requirement -- that expanded local
22     programming had to be achieved, I think you would be
23     sending a message that certainly many of the people I
24     have heard tonight would want you to send.
25  1515                 I would be surprised if regions that


 1     felt themselves as local across Canada would not
 2     encourage you to make exactly that recommendation.
 3  1516                 Just so I understand:  You are able
 4     to do that.
 5  1517                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  You have defined
 6     precisely what our role is.  It is defining within the
 7     specific issues the conditions of licence upon which a
 8     broadcaster, whether a private broadcaster or the CBC,
 9     must operate under.  So in terms of defining amounts of
10     local programming or regional programming.
11  1518                 Or, as someone mentioned earlier
12     today, on private radio the amount of Canadian content;
13     on private and public television, the amount of
14     Canadian programming that has to be aired.  Those are
15     established by condition of licence.
16  1519                 The stations must adhere to those
17     conditions.
18  1520                 MR. KAPLIN:  Not to repeat myself, I
19     guess I look forward to seeing a very strong
20     recommendation that the CBC, to renew its licence,
21     should provide expanded local programming of continued
22     high quality as a requirement for its future.
23  1521                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  What we can't
24     do -- and we discussed this this morning, and if our
25     friends from the CBC will bear with me for a minute, I


 1     think we might as well put it on the table again.
 2  1522                 What we can't do, though, is force
 3     the government to spend more money.  We can't set
 4     priorities for the government, and we can't say take it
 5     out of the health budget, take it out of the military.
 6  1523                 MR. KAPLIN:  I appreciate that.
 7  1524                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  We are not
 8     Paul Martin.
 9  1525                 MR. KAPLIN:  That's right.
10  1526                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I think one
11     of the things you may want to think about -- and we can
12     certainly leave the mics open for a little more
13     discussion later after we hear from our friends from
14     the CBC.
15  1527                 You may want to think of where you
16     would be prepared to give, if you have ideas like that
17     as well.  We will take that information back with us
18     too.
19  1528                 You have told us what you want, but
20     if there is only a limited amount of dollars, something
21     has to go.  It's Economics 101 here.  This is not
22     rocket science.
23  1529                 MR. KAPLIN:  Precisely.  And if a
24     private broadcaster came to you and wanted to, just for
25     an idea, control the stations in Sydney, and if you


 1     made one of the regulations of having control over the
 2     station in Sydney that the public voice had to be
 3     there, the public voice would be heard a lot more in
 4     private broadcasting.  And if private broadcasting felt
 5     that that was an expensive thing to do, they would more
 6     vigorously find a way.
 7  1530                 It is not our job to find the money
 8     right now.  I don't think we can answer that question. 
 9     It is our job to say what we know the community needs,
10     and it is the government's job --
11  1531                 You know, one day it's broke and one
12     day we are going to have more money put into health
13     care.  I can't deal with that, and I can't answer that. 
14     And it should not be pot to a community as small as
15     this to find that answer.
16  1532                 What we have to tell you is what we
17     need to survive and to grow and to be a better
18     community for Canada.  It is the job of the group that
19     wants that licence from you to make it possible, to
20     find the money and to find the talent.
21  1533                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I think I may
22     have not made myself clear -- and I apologize for that. 
23     Communications is not perfect.
24  1534                 What I was trying to say is that in
25     the limited sphere of the CBC itself, just the CBC at


 1     this point -- because that is what we are here to talk
 2     about -- we have heard loud and clear about the
 3     priority being a regional voice, and links between
 4     communities and among communities.
 5  1535                 If the CBC had absolutely no more
 6     money, no more financing -- this is just a
 7     hypothetical -- and despite all of our most eloquent
 8     pleas to the government things remain stationery,
 9     something might have to go in order to achieve that.
10  1536                 I suppose what I was wondering was
11     whether people had ideas that:  Yes, here is the type
12     of programming that we really like, but here is the
13     type of programming we could live without.
14  1537                 I am going to give an example, and I
15     don't in any way want to say that I am biased in this
16     way or anything.  Please don't report that Stuart
17     Langford is against the Olympics.  But would you be
18     prepared to live without coverage of the Olympics? 
19     Would you be prepared to live without --
20  1538                 MS PADELT:  Coverage of hockey.
21  1539                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  There you
22     are.  These are the sorts of things that we can also
23     put into our mix, because we have heard what you want. 
24     And that is the limited sense I was speaking about.
25  1540                 We have heard loud and clear what you


 1     like.  I am not trying to end this evening on a
 2     negative tone, but we haven't heard too much --
 3  1541                 We know you would like Bill
 4     Richardson to have more money so that he could have an
 5     original voice rather than a rebroadcast voice.
 6  1542                 Where do you get the money?  Do you
 7     take it out of hockey?  Do you take it out of --
 8  1543                 MR. KAPLIN:  Toronto.
 9                                                        2055
10  1544                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Mattocks is
11     going to tell you that hockey makes money.
12  1545                 Maybe it is a good time to turn it
13     over to Mr. Mattocks to comment on what they have
14     heard.
16  1546                 MR. MATTOCKS:  It is the conundrum of
17     CBC television.  People who think they are being
18     helpful try to tell us that our problem is we try to be
19     all things to all people.  So we try to make hockey for
20     people who like hockey; we try to make arts programming
21     for people who like the arts.  There is a body of
22     thought that says that can't be done.
23  1547                 I exist in my job on the premise that
24     it can be done and it is done.  I think that
25     programming that we manage to do out of this region is


 1     a good example.
 2  1548                 At one point one of the speakers said
 3     that CBC television is becoming more and more like the
 4     commercial channels, and my heart dropped to my feet
 5     because we have been spending our last several years
 6     trying very hard to do the opposite.
 7  1549                 Prime time television is now very
 8     close to 100 per cent Canadian, if not 100 per cent. 
 9     Daytime is significantly more Canadian than it was.  So
10     I was wondering what Mr. Jackson might have meant by
11     his comment.  It was a very creative presentation.  He
12     is obviously a very thoughtful person.
13  1550                 When I sit there and look at what we
14     have produced on television, not just out of the
15     Maritimes -- but a lot of it comes out of the
16     Maritimes -- in terms of comedy, for instance, we are
17     the home of Canadian comedy.  The Comedy Channel and
18     Baton's comedy efforts, and other people's comedy
19     efforts, came after ours when they saw what kind of a
20     constituency you can do, what kind of an audience you
21     can do, and so on.  The same is true in drama, the same
22     is true in news.
23  1551                 It seems to me that we are in almost
24     a unique dilemma; that every time we are successful at
25     something, somebody else picks up on it.  And then


 1     somebody says:  "What is the CBC doing that for?"
 2  1552                 The Kaplan-Sauvageau Commission
 3     talked about this at great length.
 4  1553                 One thing I thought might be useful
 5     that occurred to me as I was listening, that I am not
 6     sure if the Commissioners are aware of -- I am sure
 7     Commissioner Colville is -- is the peculiar make-up of
 8     this region and this province as compared to other
 9     places in Canada.  We are in the most rural place in
10     Canada.
11  1554                 The latest StatsCan figures show Nova
12     Scotia, for instance, as being 45 per cent rural -- and
13     that's by StatsCan definitions, which I understand
14     calls small towns urban.
15  1555                 There are 350,000 people in Halifax,
16     but there are 540,000 people who are not in Halifax.
17  1556                 One of the things that we wrestle
18     with all the time, and something Mr. MacNeil spoke
19     about, is the representation of issues and stories from
20     other parts of this province.  It is a dilemma for us. 
21     We work very hard at it.  Our little bureau here does
22     more than its share.
23                                                        2100
24  1557                 I was telling people this morning it
25     generates 25 per cent of our news programming, it has


 1     generated in the last year; and that is by actual
 2     count.  It is obviously not far enough, but we do what
 3     we can with the resources we have.
 4  1558                 One of the things that we have been
 5     able to do through all of the cuts is maintain the
 6     bureaus that we have in this province.  The Sydney
 7     bureau continues, although diminished slightly from
 8     what it was, and we have been able to maintain our
 9     bureau in Yarmouth as well.
10  1559                 So for what it is worth, its' a step
11     in the right direction.
12  1560                 Susan...?
13  1561                 MS MITTON:  I just wanted to say that
14     we view this whole exercise as a wonderful one for us,
15     because we got to listen this afternoon to four hours
16     of viewer and listener comments and the same this
17     evening.  We are not here to rebut anything that is
18     said.  In fact, we are here to absorb criticisms.
19  1562                 I am delighted, I have to say, with
20     the response and the support for local radio.  It
21     doesn't surprise me.  I am aware of that.  I think we
22     are hanging tough, and we should.
23  1563                 I was interested in some of the
24     comments on repeats, and I have a few thoughts on that
25     that I wanted to share with you; and also on the


 1     transmission front.  It came up this afternoon as well. 
 2     I thoroughly enjoyed the presentation and the chart,
 3     and we are going to be able to use that to our
 4     advantage, I hope, on the transmission problem.
 5  1564                 Let me just go back for a moment to
 6     the repeat situation.  The sense that a third of radio
 7     programming is repeat, I am not quite sure where that
 8     comes from.  If you take a week day, you have
 9     "Daybreak" from 5:30 to 6:00, which is regional; you
10     have "Info Morning" from 6:00 to 9:00; you have "This
11     Morning" from 9:00 to 12:00; "Maritime Noon" from 12:00
12     to 2:00.
13  1565                 "Richardson's Roundup" is an
14     interesting exercise for us.  My own instinct and
15     background as a programmer -- somebody said "all
16     management are bean counters".  I was "Land and Sea"
17     for 15 years on the road; executive producer of "News
18     and Current Affairs".  I have been a national show
19     host.  I am a programmer at heart.
20  1566                 My instinct is to never repeat
21     anything.  I have been there, done it, got the T-shirt,
22     let's move on.
23  1567                 But the reality is that when you take
24     out about 25 to 30 per cent of your operating budget
25     and you lose that amount of staff, you have to figure


 1     out another way.  What we did is look --
 2  1568                 We had to take our hit in the
 3     regions; we had to take our hit locally, as part of
 4     that budget cut.  But we also sliced some out the
 5     network; we had to.
 6  1569                 We looked at the lowest listening
 7     time, which is actually 2:00 to 4:00 for radio, and we
 8     looked at the budget of Gabero.  We were going to lose
 9     Gabero anyway, because she wanted to go and try B.C. TV
10     for a while.  So we basically took half of that budget
11     and said:  "If we have no budget for this show
12     basically, we have a very talented host in Bill
13     Richardson.  Can he make matzo balls out of whatever?"
14  1570                 There was a lot of CBC programming,
15     part of that programming from the regions, excellent
16     regions.  I have heard a lot today about we need to
17     hear more from other regions and share our voices and
18     stories with other regions.  This was a concerted
19     effort, in fact, to take the best of CBC radio
20     programming and have it a second play.
21  1571                 That was a programming decision. 
22     Whether it is working or not -- believe me, we are
23     hearing the repeat sting, but it is not just about
24     "Richardson's Roundup"; it's about news; its' about a
25     story that is really good on "Info Morning" in Sydney


 1     hitting "Maritime Noon" and then it may even go
 2     national at some point.
 3  1572                 Some people appreciate hearing that. 
 4     The people that listen day in and day out, many, many
 5     hours a day to radio -- and thank God we have that
 6     core, and we value it -- they are the ones that are
 7     most aggrieved, obviously, by this repeat pattern.
 8  1573                 If you move on from "Richardson's
 9     Roundup", we are into "Mainstreets".  I have the happy
10     job of being the Regional Director of Radio.  We have
11     six "Information Morning" type programs.  We have one
12     "Maritime Noon" and we have four "Mainstreets" in the
13     Maritime Region, which my colleagues look at with great
14     envy.
15  1574                 We do serve local communities very
16     well in this region, and "Mainstreet" here in Cape
17     Breton attests to that.  We didn't roll it in with
18     Halifax, and we will continue to try to resist any move
19     that way.
20  1575                 The reality is that there are only so
21     many dollars around.
22  1576                 If you move into the evening, you
23     have "As It Happens".  Then there is a repeat hour.  It
24     is called "Best of This Morning"; it was "Best of
25     Morningside".  That, again, is strategic to pluck some


 1     of the best bits out.  And then you are on into "Ideas"
 2     and so forth.
 3  1577                 The idea that we have a third of
 4     repeat programming --
 5  1578                 And then the weekends are entirely
 6     different.  I don't believe that is the case.  I don't
 7     have it broken down in front of me.  But part of our
 8     coming here today --
 9  1579                 MS CUSACK:  It is full of repeats as
10     you go between Radio One and Radio Two.  It is horrid.
11  1580                 MS MITTON:  Radio One and Radio Two. 
12     Radio Two primarily deals with classical music.  Radio
13     One is talk.
14  1581                 MS CUSACK:  There is a fair bit of
15     repeat between those two services on the weekend, I
16     think.
17  1582                 MS MITTON:  I would have to go back,
18     because I am not aware of that and I listen to both.  I
19     am responsible for both.
20  1583                 As I was going to say, part of our
21     exercise here is to take complaints and criticisms
22     back, and if we don't have documented answers for
23     you -- and I am not being defensive, because I agree
24     with the repeat issue.  But a third, to me, is
25     overstating it by quite a bit.


 1  1584                 I will get back to you and do our
 2     research on that for you.  That is a very important
 3     issue to us.
 4  1585                 I think the transmission -- I don't
 5     know if you have anything more to add than you said
 6     already.  It is pretty hard to go up against Jim, isn't
 7     it.
 8  1586                 We won't even go there, other than to
 9     say we believe that the signal should reach everybody
10     for Radio One and Radio Two.  It is again a matter of
11     money.  In the mid-1980s they just decided we are going
12     to have to -- again, Sophie's choice:  we are going to
13     stop adding transmitters at this point and focus on the
14     areas that we are currently serving.
15  1587                 Digital may help us out, but that may
16     be a few years beyond yet.
17  1588                 The more opinions that are voiced,
18     however, through MLAs and to presidents of CBC, and so
19     forth, and through the CRTC on this issue -- it is the
20     squeaky wheel potentially.  The network people are
21     probably going to be really angry at me for saying
22     that.
23  1589                 We believe that everyone should get
24     the signal.  We would love to have that the case.
25  1590                 MS PADELT:  Certainly I am not


 1     criticizing people who are trying to work with this
 2     limited budget.  I think I made it clear that funding
 3     is a major issue here.
 4  1591                 I really appreciate what you are
 5     doing with a limited budget.
 6  1592                 MS MITTON:  Thank you.
 7  1593                 Jules, do you have any comment on
 8     that?
 9  1594                 M. JULES CHIASSON:  Si vous
10     permettez, j'aimerais juste ajouter quelques mots pour,
11     enfin, terminer la session d'aujourd'hui ici à Sydney.
12  1595                 D'abord, je suis Jules Chiasson,
13     Directeur de la radio dans les provinces de
14     l'Atlantique.  J'ai eu l'occasion de travailler pendant
15     10 ans à Halifax avec Susan et Fred et j'ai été
16     agréablement influencé par la bonne gestion qui se
17     déroule à Halifax au niveau des productions
18     artistiques, musicales, et même du côté de
19     l'information.i
20  1596                 Je suis Directeur de la radio à
21     Moncton depuis trois ans.  J'aimerais peut-être dire
22     pour répondre un peu aux trois interventions qui se
23     sont faites en français aujourd'hui, au niveau de la
24     programmation régionale, que la radio en Atlantique à
25     Moncton c'est un réseau en soi.  On dessert les quatre


 1     provinces.
 2  1597                 Alors, quand il y a des assemblées
 3     législatives qui se déroulent à Halifax, Frédéricton, à
 4     Charlottetown et Terre-Neuve, il faut suivre le débat
 5     qui se fait dans les quatre assemblées législatives. 
 6     Dès qu'il y a des élections dans les provinces de
 7     l'Atlantique, c'est l'équipe de Moncton qui va couvrir
 8     les élections.  On vient de couvrir les élections à
 9     Terre-Neuve.  On prévoit deux autres élections
10     prochainement.  C'est encore la même équipe qui va les
11     couvrir les élections, que ce soit au Nouveau-Brunswick
12     ou en Nouvelle-Écosse.
13  1598                 Ceci dit, malgré les compressions
14     qu'on a connues au cours des dernières années, on est
15     très sensible à couvrir l'ensemble des régions des
16     provinces de l'Atlantique.  Déjà, malgré les
17     compressions, on a ouvert un centre de production à
18     Charlottetown.  C'est tout récent.  C'est en 1996.
19  1599                 On venait d'ouvrir un centre de
20     production à Halifax.  Ça ça date seulement depuis
21     1986.  Enfin, c'est à ce moment-là que j'ai été
22     travaillé à Halifax comme producteur délégué avant de
23     venir à Moncton comme directeur.  Et on a ouvert
24     également un bureau journalistique à Caraquet en 1996
25     également.


 1  1600                 Alors, malgré les compressions, on
 2     est quand même sensible à la couverture des régions. 
 3     On fait des efforts pour desservir l'ensemble des
 4     régions.  On travaille aussi en étroite collaboration
 5     avec la télévision, et Louise Imbeault, ma collègue,
 6     Directrice de la télévision, pourra en parler.
 7  1601                 La seule manière qu'on réussit nous à
 8     couvrir l'ensemble des quatre provinces de l'Atlantique
 9     c'est en partageant nos ressources radio et télévision. 
10     Les journalistes télé desservent également la radio. 
11     On a des bureaux journalistiques télévision un peu
12     partout dans l'ensemble des provinces de l'Atlantique.
13  1602                 Alors, avec ces ressources, on essaie
14     tant bien que mal de desservir l'ensemble des
15     communautés acadiennes et francophones en Atlantique,
16     et tranquillement, pas vite, on essaie de déployer et
17     les ressources qu'on a ajouté à Charlottetown et à
18     Caraquet.  C'est simplement des ressources qu'on avait
19     à Moncton qu'on a réparti sur le territoire et on
20     espère dans les prochaines années pouvoir le faire
21     encore davantage.
22  1603                 Alors, ceci dit, je vous remercie
23     aussi et je dois dire que les interventions, même du
24     côté qui s'adressaient à la radio et à la télévision de
25     la CBC, j'ai trouvé les interventions aujourd'hui très


 1     intéressantes.  Il y a certainement des remarques et
 2     des recommandations et des suggestions qui pourront
 3     également s'appliquer à la manière que nous on gère la
 4     radiodiffusion en Atlantique.
 5  1604                 LA PRÉSIDENTE:  Merci.
 6  1605                 Oui.
 7  1606                 MME IMBEAULT:  J'écoute les
 8     délibérations depuis 1 h cet après-midi et je veux
 9     simplement vous dire un mot, la synthèse, peut-être que
10     je ferais de ça, mais je pense qu'elle est
11     d'importance.
12  1607                 Mon nom est Louise Imbeault.  Je suis
13     la Directrice de la télévision de Radio-Canada pour les
14     provinces Atlantique.  Autrement dit, je suis la
15     vis-à-vis de M. Mattocks excepté que nous on a une
16     seule station pour quatre provinces.  Alors, on doit
17     multiplier les efforts.
18  1608                 Il n'y a pas de commentaires qui se
19     sont faits aujourd'hui que je ne connaissais pas déjà. 
20     Je pense que les gens à Radio-Canada connaissent bien
21     les attentes du public.  Ce que j'ai trouvé
22     extraordinatire, par exemple, puis que je voudrais dire
23     c'est que depuis 12 ans, moi, que je suis Directrice de
24     la télévision, à chaque fois que je suis allé à des
25     délibérations ou des audiences, j'ai souvent entendu


 1     des gens, par exemple, venir dire que Radio-Canada
 2     faisait une compétition déloyale à certains producteurs
 3     privés ou à certaines entreprises privées, que par
 4     exemple on utilisait des fonds publics pour faire des
 5     reportages que peut-être on devrait pas faire et des
 6     choses comme ça, des gens qui avaient des intérêts à
 7     démolir Radio-Canada.
 8  1609                 Or, aujourd'hui, ce qu'on a entendu
 9     toute la journée, et je pense que c'est capital, ce
10     sont des citoyens et des citoyennes, des gens, des
11     Canadiens, des Canadiennes qui sont venus dire, cette
12     radio et cette télévision, on la veut publique,
13     c'est-à-dire on la veut au service des Canadiens et des
14     Canadiennes.  On la veut au service des citoyens et on
15     veut plus.  On n'en veut pas moins.
16  1610                 Et ça c'est le message tout à fait
17     contraire que celui qu'on lit généralement dans les
18     journaux où on dit, il ne faudrait pas faire ci, il ne
19     faudrait pas faire ça.  Ça coûte trop cher.  C'est pas
20     ça qu'on a entendu aujourd'hui.
21  1611                 On a entendu, ça coûte quelque chose
22     mais il faut le faire, il faut le faire bien, et il
23     faut le faire pour les citoyens et les citoyennes dans
24     un pays démocratique.  Il faut le faire pour une radio
25     et une télévision publique indépendantes.  Et ça je


 1     trouve que c'est capital et ça n'aurait fait que ça, et
 2     le CRTC ne pourrait véhiculer que ce message-là que ça
 3     serait déjà presqu'une révolution.
 4  1612                 Merci.
 5     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 6  1613                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Livingstone has
 7     just arrived.
 8                                                        2115
 9  1614                 Everybody has made a presentation,
10     and the CBC has now just finished commenting on the
11     presentation.  You were last on the list, so you are
12     welcome to make your presentation now.
14  1615                 MR. LIVINGSTONE:  My name is Neil
15     Livingstone, and I just came from premiering my new
16     film at the university, and we were the night before in
17     Halifax.  It is a pleasure to be in Sydney, because I
18     am rarely here, even though I live on the other side of
19     the island.
20  1616                 I have a documentary film and video
21     production company called Black River Productions
22     Limited.  Basically, I want to address some of the
23     issues at hand tonight and also talk a little bit about
24     independent documentary producers relative to CBC
25     television nationally.


 1  1617                 I think from my perspective, as
 2     someone who has both listened to CBC most of my life
 3     and lived in an area where CBC really wasn't available
 4     for some years, and then we got local tower near us it
 5     is something I listened to -- and because we don't have
 6     satellite and we don't have cable where I live, it is
 7     actually the only television station we get.  So we
 8     don't have a lot of choice on that level.
 9  1618                 I am of the opinion that radio is
10     suffering because of lack of funding and that it needs
11     more funding; and television to some degree as well.  I
12     am fairly current on different reports that have been
13     written over the last 10 or 15 years about the CBC. 
14     Most of the things relative to those conclusions I
15     don't see being implemented very fast.
16  1619                 Interestingly enough, relative to the
17     funding issue, I was one of a group of 25 documentary
18     film makers a year that are chosen to go over to the
19     United Kingdom and meet programmers from television
20     there.  I was over in the middle of November and we had
21     David Doherty, one of the controllers for the BBC, and
22     he stood up and said:  "Listen, we are going into the
23     next millennium.  We have huge amounts of funds.  We
24     are a very, very aggressive public corporation.  We
25     have just opened up a station in the States called BBC


 1     America, and we are going full tilt."
 2  1620                 Certainly, I don't see this happening
 3     with CBC.  I feel that there is no reason, given the
 4     right funding structure, why CBC could not be equally
 5     as aggressive, both nationally and internationally, as
 6     the BBC is doing.  I think far too often we are looking
 7     at American models.
 8  1621                 That is the general kind of comments
 9     I have on that.
10  1622                 I was very impressed by him,
11     actually, because we rarely hear --
12  1623                 I don't know if everyone is aware,
13     but in Britain you have to pay 100 pounds a year for
14     your television set, which I guess in our terms would
15     be equal to paying about $100 a year.  It's what makes
16     it happen.  We will never have that in Canada, but
17     certainly we have ways of generating revenue for the
18     public broadcaster.
19  1624                 What I want to focus on is television
20     in terms of documentaries and some of the problems that
21     producers still have in this region relative to working
22     with the national broadcaster from out of Toronto and
23     also doing work with them.
24  1625                 For the most part, most of what I
25     would call the mature professional documentary


 1     independent producers in this region still have never,
 2     or maybe only once -- most of us I would say never in
 3     Nova Scotia -- made a program for the network, for
 4     Channel 1 on the network; not Newsworld but CBC
 5     primarily.
 6  1626                 I have been making films for 30
 7     years, since I was 12 years old, and I still have never
 8     had a program broadcast on the network.  This, I think,
 9     is really a problem, and it is a problem that I think
10     the CRTC should address.  Some of these issues have
11     been addressed by the Canadian Independent Film Caucus
12     before you.
13  1627                 I was one of the founding members of
14     the chapter in this region, and also was the national
15     liaison before there was a chapter in this region.  I
16     know that regularly the Film Caucus is presenting
17     before you on issues, and obviously I am in agreement
18     with most of what they are saying.
19  1628                 I think it is unfortunate that we
20     don't have programming of documentary that is more
21     open.  I think the public wants more open programming
22     of documentary.  Too often, I think when we look at the
23     strands that are available for documentary, what we
24     find is copycat programming from the States.  We find
25     "Witness" like "Witness" in the States; we find "Life


 1     and Times" like "Life and Times" in the States; we find
 2     "History" like "History" in the States.
 3  1629                 Personally, I find it kind of
 4     offensive and embarrassing, both as a member of the
 5     public and as a producer.  What I see in the production
 6     community across Canada is an incredible pool of
 7     talent.  What television continues to do through its
 8     programmers as gatekeepers in documentary is that we
 9     tend to see a narrowing of what the public is allowed
10     to see.  We see programs that all look the same, more
11     or less; the programmers want them to look the same.
12  1630                 In fact, we live in a society that is
13     very diverse, and in fact the creative producers of
14     productions have the ability to produce programs that
15     don't all look the same.  Increasingly, that is what is
16     being demanded.
17  1631                 Part of that is also corporate
18     concentration.  There is no doubt that when you look at
19     the "Witness" lineup for this year, some companies have
20     two and three programs on that show, and there are only
21     26 programs in a year.  So there are very few
22     opportunities for those of us who don't live in
23     Toronto, or rub shoulders with them regularly, to get
24     in.
25  1632                 I think it is very interesting.  I


 1     think the CRTC at these hearings could really push on
 2     this issue.  Again, I relegate it back to the public. 
 3     I think one of the things the public -- there is so
 4     much more that television could be and television could
 5     do.  My expertise really is in documentary.  I think it
 6     is important to push the public broadcaster on that.
 7  1633                 I had a conversation with Sheila
 8     Copps this summer about how the whole public funding
 9     system works with the Cable Production Fund and
10     Telefilm.  Personally, as an individual and not as a
11     film-maker, what I see are large amounts of public
12     funds going to things like producer fees on series and
13     things like that.  In effect, what we are doing is,
14     through public funding, we are paying large salaries on
15     those things without any other marketing success of the
16     product.
17  1634                 If I am successful enough in selling
18     a series to CBC nationally as a drama series or as a
19     producer, I am going to make a hefty salary, mostly
20     based on public funding.  I don't have problems with
21     people making high salaries, but I think they should
22     come from sales and other markets.
23  1635                 I think that much more of the public
24     funding could be spread broader to the community of
25     production people if there were caps.  The Minister's


 1     response was:  "I couldn't care less as long as there
 2     is high-quality Canadian programming.  I don't care if
 3     it is coming from big stations or little stations."
 4  1636                 I know, for instance, the National
 5     Film Board has done some research into where money is
 6     going and things like that.
 7  1637                 There is a high level of
 8     concentration.  I don't think it is healthy, because
 9     when you want regional diversification you need to
10     force that in different ways.  One of the ways is to
11     make funding be spread.
12  1638                 I know that CBC regionally, Fred has
13     done quite a reasonable job in trying to get more on
14     the screens produced locally.  But it is almost as if
15     most of us will never ever in our careers achieve
16     getting on the national network.
17  1639                 In fact, what is really incredible is
18     that most of the producers in this region now would not
19     have had careers if it wasn't for Vision TV in this
20     decade, because it is only vision that is willing to
21     give us broadcast licences and then let us get Telefilm
22     funding and Nova Scotia Film Development funding.
23  1640                 As senior producers, this is not a
24     good deal for the public, and things should be more
25     open on that level.


 1  1641                 If I am correct, we have about ten
 2     minutes for me, and I think I have probably talked for
 3     about five.  So I would be happy to entertain questions
 4     if you have some.  I figure that that is a good way to
 5     divide up the time.
 6  1642                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  You did prompt a
 7     couple of questions.
 8  1643                 First of all, when you first started
 9     talking, you said radio is suffering from a lack of
10     funding and television somewhat as well.
11  1644                 Is it your view that radio is
12     suffering more than television from lack of funding?
13  1645                 MR. LIVINGSTONE:  I listen to radio
14     more than I watch television.  This is how I am; but I
15     do watch some television.  In terms of the ability of
16     radio to produce well, I think it has suffered more in
17     the cutbacks than television in what I see.  Part of
18     that, of course, is because what the federal government
19     has done with the Cable Fund is they have pumped huge
20     amounts of money outside of CBC, but basically that
21     directly feeds into CBC television.
22  1646                 I remember "Ideas" 10 or 15 years
23     ago, the amounts of money someone would get to produce
24     a four-part "Ideas" show was more than they would even
25     pay now, or equal to it.  And this is almost 20 years


 1     ago I am talking about.
 2  1647                 I remember someone I knew in
 3     Vancouver, Jurgen Hessop, produced a number of shows,
 4     and they were impeccably researched.  I don't think
 5     that that is really possible to do any more.
 6  1648                 As someone who researches projects
 7     and works on them for a year at least to make a film, I
 8     see radio as being very thin these days on that level. 
 9     To me, it is a tremendous disappointment because it has
10     been part of my life to listen to CBC radio.
11  1649                 In terms of the Internet and some of
12     the new technologies that are going on, I think that
13     the level of penetration that the CBC is doing now on
14     those areas is reasonable.  If I was asked a question
15     of "where should the money go", I would certainly say
16     it should go into the traditional forms, be it
17     broadcast television and radio.
18  1650                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  My understanding --
19     and Mr. Mattocks can correct me if I am wrong -- is
20     that the CBC is proposing to spend about $40 million on
21     developing the Internet.
22  1651                 MR. MATTOCKS:  God, it has doubled
23     since I last heard; $20 million is the figure that I am
24     familiar with.
25  1652                 THE CHAIRMAN:  Is it $20 million?  So


 1     you would argue that that sort of money should be going
 2     into --
 3  1653                 MR. LIVINGSTONE:  No.  What I said
 4     was that I think that the level of penetration that
 5     they are working on in terms of the Internet is quite
 6     appropriate.  I would not like to see the balance
 7     shifting hugely and heavily in terms of funding toward
 8     Internet, which would drain further funds out of
 9     television and radio.  I think that the level they are
10     doing it now is a pretty good bang for the buck.
11  1654                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Most of your
12     comments were related to the issues of documentaries
13     and the problems with respect to this region and
14     getting on the air.  Andrew Cochran is here and was
15     commenting earlier on some of the programming.
16  1655                 I guess with some of the comedy
17     programs and drama programs, either one-ofs or series,
18     this region has done relatively well, I would think, in
19     terms of getting on the network.
20  1656                 Is your comment and your concern
21     particularly with respect to documentaries?
22  1657                 MR. LIVINGSTONE:  Totally, yes. 
23     Documentary has not followed suit with that to any
24     great degree.  There has been a little bit of work done
25     by some producers with some of those main programs, but


 1     I don't think proportionately.
 2  1658                 I also don't think the degree to
 3     which the talent pool exists here -- I know the
 4     documentary community across Canada, and because of
 5     circumstances that existed about 20 years ago here,
 6     where there wasn't craft work, many people developed as
 7     film makers and are very talented professionals now.
 8  1659                 It has been a very good few years for
 9     most of us really, but we are still not getting through
10     to the network.  All of us, I think, have the ability
11     and professionalism to be there, and should have been
12     there years ago.
13  1660                 I remember having a conversation with
14     Bob Culver, who was the director of "current affairs"
15     at that point.  I said to him:  "You know, Bob, I could
16     program the documentary strands out of my home in
17     Mabou."  It is not that difficult to look at what is
18     being made across the country.  It doesn't have to come
19     out of downtown Toronto.  It could come out of Halifax;
20     it could come out of Vancouver.
21  1661                 The concentration of programmers --
22     and there is a culture to CBC in a central office, and
23     most of the documentary programmers in fact had their
24     early careers at "The Journal".
25  1662                 It is very markedly and tonally and


 1     content-driven coming out of that kind of a background. 
 2     I just think that much more could be done on that
 3     level.  I think that those kinds of programs could be
 4     programmed out of regions, and things like that.
 5  1663                 I am very big on decentralization on
 6     that level, because I think it gives a national flavour
 7     to Canadians, the same as "This Hour Has 22 Minutes"
 8     being produced from this region.  You have different
 9     flavours in different parts of the country.  I don't
10     see that, nationally, the network is doing that with
11     documentary, and they should.
12  1664                 From the position of the CRTC, it is
13     certainly a very hard thing to direct the CBC what to
14     do, but I think it would be very useful to push them in
15     the hearings on some of those issues.
16  1665                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Why do you think we
17     have been relatively successful with comedy and drama
18     and not with documentaries?  Certainly folks at the
19     network in Toronto and people like Fred and others here
20     and people like Bill Donovan have pushed very hard and
21     have been somewhat successful.
22  1666                 Why haven't we been able to achieve
23     that with documentaries?
24  1667                 MR. LIVINGSTONE:  Again, I think it
25     is relatively just an historical situation, in that


 1     programmers for documentary exclusively, I believe,
 2     outside of "Canadian Reflections", all are people who
 3     came out of hard news, national television news
 4     programming, being "The Journal"; and at being
 5     journalists/programmers, most of the programs end up
 6     looking and feeling like that, more or less.  That is
 7     the historical background of that.
 8  1668                 When you look at what is on
 9     television in the U.K., for instance, there is a much
10     broader sense of what documentary is.  Canadian
11     producers are tremendous producers of documentary on a
12     broad level, and that is not being very well
13     represented on the network.
14  1669                 One other point I forgot to make
15     relative to that is that almost bizarrely I have had an
16     easier time selling my documentaries to the U.K.  I
17     have sold to Channel 4 in BBC and in another network
18     there.  In some ways it has been easier, living in this
19     region, to sell to the U.K. than it has been to sell to
20     Toronto.
21  1670                 I am not talking individually.  We
22     have had very good communications as a documentary
23     community.  And the kind of reality that I live in is
24     not my own special reality.  I have friends all over
25     the country who are documentary film-makers, and it is


 1     not just specific to this region, the kinds of things I
 2     am talking about.
 3  1671                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 4     much.
 5  1672                 Did you wish to make any further
 7  1673                 Then that concludes our session in
 8     Sydney.  I want to thank all of those who participated
 9     and gave their comments.  Every one of them, in my
10     view, was excellent and well thought out.  Obviously,
11     everybody here spoke with a lot of passion and concern
12     about the CBC and what it means to the lives of people
13     who live here in Cape Breton and indeed this region.
14  1674                 It has been very helpful for us to
15     get a better understanding about what the concerns are. 
16     I appreciate the welcomes that many people gave for us
17     to come to Sydney; and I must say, for our part, I am
18     glad we came to Sydney.
19  1675                 As some of you would know, I live in
20     Halifax, which I have learned over time is to Nova
21     Scotia and the Maritime Region what Toronto is to
22     Canada -- if you are from outside of Halifax.  But we
23     can tolerate criticism, nonetheless.
24  1676                 Again, I want to thank all of you for
25     your presentations.  They were very thoughtful and very


 1     helpful to us in our deliberations.
 2  1677                 With that, we will adjourn today's
 3     session.  There is one starting in Moncton tomorrow.
 4  1678                 This is the first one.  I think the
 5     whole issue of these public consultations has got off
 6     to an excellent start.  I thank you all very much.
 7     --- Whereupon the consultation adjourned at 2130/
 8         Le consultation est ajournée à 2130
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