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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES SUBJECT / SUJET: PUBLIC CONSULTATION ON THE CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION (CBC)/ CONSULTATIONS PUBLIQUES SUR LA SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC) HELD AT: TENUE À: Delta Sydney Hotel Delta Sydney Hotel Room Mariner A & B Salle Mariner A & B 300 Esplanade 300, Esplanade Sydney, N.S. Sydney (N.-É.) March 9, 1999 Le 9 mars 1999 tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668 Transcripts In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of Contents. However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the public hearing. Transcription Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience publique ainsi que la table des matières. Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l'audience publique. StenoTran Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des télécommunications canadiennes Transcript / Transcription Public Hearing / Audience publique PUBLIC CONSULTATION ON THE CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION (CBC)/ CONSULTATIONS PUBLIQUES SUR LA SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC) BEFORE / DEVANT: David Colville Chairperson / Président Stuart Langford Commissioner / Commissioner ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS: Alastair Stewart Commission Counsel / Avocat du Conseil Brien Rodger Regional Director/ Halifax Regional Office / Directeur régional, Halifax HELD AT: TENUE À: Delta Sydney Hotel Delta Sydney Hotel Room Mariner A & B Salle Mariner A & B 300 Esplanade 300, Esplanade Sydney, N.S. Sydney (N.-É.) March 9, 1999 Le 9 mars 1999 StenoTran ii TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES PAGE Presentation by / Présentation par: Mr. Frank Corbett 7 Ms Elizaabeth Cusack 12 Mr. Parker Donham 19 Mr. Pat Bates 30 Ms Kelly Jerrott 39 Ms Beverly Brett 44 Mr. Ernie Curry 51 Ms Helen MacDonald 62 Mr. Herman Wills 64 Ms Ann Verrill 74 Mr. Douglas Brown 85 Mr. Frank Gaudet 93 Mr. Ray MacKay 94 Mr. Phil MacDonald 101 Ms Jo-Ann Citrigno 107 Mr. David Papazian 114 Mr. Bob Peters 123 Mr. Alan Bird 126 Ms Theresa MacNeil 130 M. Charland 142 Mr. James St. Clair 190 StenoTran iii TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES PAGE Presentation by / Présentation par: Mr. Alan Leith 198 Ms Vanessa Morrison 205 Mr. Paul Jackson 208 Ms Marjorie MacDonald 217 Ms Sandra Dunn 222 Mr. Robert MacNeil 227 Mr. James MacSwain 236 Mr. Ronald Kaplin 245 Mr. Dan Yakimchuk 249 M. Yvon Samson 252 Mr. Walter MacKinnon 260 Mr. Andrew Cochran 265 Ms Johanna Padelt 276 Mme Gisèle Blanc-Lavoie 281 Mr. Neil Livingstone 312 Reply by: / Réplique par: Ms Susan Mitton 174 Mr. Fred Mattocks 298 StenoTran 1 1 Sydney, N.S. / Sydney (N.-É.) 2 --- Upon commencing on Tuesday, March 9, 1999 3 at 1300 / L'audience reprend le mardi 4 9 mars 1999, à 1300 5 1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, 6 ladies and gentlemen. I think we will get started. 7 2 Welcome to this consultation 8 regarding the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, the 9 CBC. My name is David Colville, and I am the 10 Vice-Chair, Telecommunications, and the Atlantic Region 11 Commissioner for the CRTC. 12 3 With me today is Commissioner Stuart 13 Langford. 14 4 We are here today to gather your 15 views and comments on CBC radio and television and 16 seeking, in your opinion, how the Canadian Broadcasting 17 Corporation should fulfil its role in the coming years. 18 5 The CBC is a national public service, 19 broadcasting in English as well as in French, and it 20 plays an important role in the Canadian broadcasting 21 system. Today many elements are constantly being added 22 to the broadcasting system as new technologies 23 multiply, converge, open up new horizons, and 24 increasingly offer new services. 25 6 In this context, we want to know what StenoTran 2 1 your needs and expectations are, as viewers and 2 listeners of the CBC. 3 7 Given that, it is very important that 4 the Commission hears what you have to say, and we must 5 not lose sight of the fact that the CRTC itself is a 6 public organization that serves Canadian citizens. In 7 this capacity, we are responsible to you. This is why 8 my fellow Commissioners and I find it vital to come and 9 meet with you to discuss these issues, and why we are 10 holding this series of regional consultations from one 11 end of the country to the other, in 11 Canadian cities, 12 from March 9th to the 18th. 13 8 I might note that we have 14 deliberately tried to come to some of the communities 15 that we have not typically gone to in the past. For 16 example, many people have said: "Why didn't you go to 17 Halifax? Why are you going to Sydney?" It is because 18 we don't often get to Sydney. 19 9 We can't do all of the cities in the 20 country, and we have decided to try to go to some of 21 the places where we typically would not go. We 22 appreciate that that may make it difficult for some of 23 the people in some other communities to have their 24 voices heard, but we are certainly entertaining written 25 comments and there will be a main hearing coming up on StenoTran 3 1 the CBC renewal, as well. 2 10 These consultations are designed to 3 give you a chance to express your opinion on the CBC's 4 role, the programming it offers, and the direction it 5 should take at the national, regional and local levels. 6 11 Through these consultations we hope 7 to enter into an open dialogue with you and to hear 8 your concerns. Your comments will form part of the 9 public record, which will be added to the record of the 10 public hearing on the CBC that will begin in Hull on 11 May 25th. 12 12 At this upcoming hearing, the one in 13 May, the Commission will examine the CBC's application 14 for the renewal of its licences, including radio, 15 television and its specialty services, Newsworld and 16 Réseau de l'information. 17 13 You can also take part in that public 18 hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 19 If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the 20 specific licence renewals being examined when you file 21 your comments. 22 14 Coming back to today's consultations, 23 let me introduce the CRTC staff who will be assisting 24 us today. 25 15 Alastair Stewart is our legal StenoTran 4 1 counsel. We are not allowed to to anywhere without our 2 lawyers being with us, for fear we might get ourselves 3 in trouble. So Alastair is here to protect me. 4 16 Also with us is Brien Rodger, who is 5 the Regional Director for our Halifax Regional Office. 6 Please feel free to call on them with any questions you 7 might have about the process today or any other matter 8 related to this licence renewal process. 9 17 So that you will all have an 10 opportunity to speak, we are going to ask you to limit 11 your presentation to ten minutes. We can be a little 12 bit flexible with respect to that, but I would ask your 13 indulgence in that respect, because we do have 14 20-some-odd people registered for this afternoon's 15 session and another group for tonight. In order to 16 give everybody an opportunity to have their say, we 17 would ask you to respect the time limit. 18 18 As these consultations are a forum 19 designed especially for you, and we want to listen to 20 as many participants as possible, it is not our 21 intention to grill you with questions, although we may 22 have a question or two of clarification on your 23 presentation as we go through the day. 24 19 There are representatives from the 25 CBC here, and they will have an opportunity to respond StenoTran 5 1 at the end of the session to any of the comments that 2 they have heard through the day. 3 20 Before we start, I will ask our 4 counsel to go over some of the housekeeping matters 5 regarding the conduct of our consultation. 6 21 Mr. Stewart. 7 22 MR. STEWART: Thank you very much, 8 Commissioner Colville. 9 23 Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen; 10 bonjour, mesdames et messieurs. 11 24 Just a few housekeeping items. I 12 will invite each person who has registered to make his 13 or her presentation in a predetermined order, that I 14 think you are familiar with. I would ask people to 15 identify themselves for the purposes of the court 16 reporter -- or the reporter, I should say; this is not 17 a court proceeding -- for the purpose of the 18 transcript. As Commissioner Colville pointed out, your 19 comments will form part of the public record for this 20 proceeding. 21 25 I would like you to press the white 22 button in front of the microphone whenever you are 23 about to speak, so that the reporter can get your 24 comments down. 25 26 Once you have finished your StenoTran 6 1 presentation, please again press the white button to 2 turn the system off. 3 27 For those of you who need 4 translation, there are head sets; the gentlemen to my 5 left have them. You can get them from those people. 6 28 Ceci complète mes remarques 7 d'introduction, Monsieur le président. 8 29 Would you like me to introduce the 9 first speaker? 10 30 THE CHAIRPERSON: Before we do that, 11 I want to underscore again that while this may seem 12 somewhat intimidating with the microphone in front of 13 you, and the fact that we are transcribing this, we do 14 that because we want to have a written record of this. 15 However, we want to try to make this as informal as we 16 can. So I hope you will feel comfortable in presenting 17 your views. 18 31 As I said earlier, we are not here to 19 grill you with questions. We may have a question or 20 two of clarification, but if anybody feels 21 uncomfortable with taking any questions, please 22 indicate so and we will certainly respect that. 23 32 With that, Mr. Stewart, will you call 24 the first presenter. 25 33 MR. STEWART: Yes. I now invite Mr. StenoTran 7 1 Frank Corbett to make his presentation. 2 34 Mr. Corbett. 3 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 4 35 MR. CORBETT: Thank you, Mr. 5 Chairman. 6 36 By way of introduction, I would say I 7 am a local member of the Legislative Assembly, and I 8 have also worked in the private broadcast sector for 9 over 20 years. I would suspect that my comments would 10 be coming from both streams, but I would hope that they 11 are understandable. 12 37 The Canadian Broadcasting 13 Corporation, both radio and television, exists to 14 provide Canadians with a voice -- all Canadians with a 15 voice, that is. Since its inception, part of CBC's 16 mandate has been the bringing together and sharing of 17 the diverse cultures which thrive across our nation. 18 38 Regrettably, CBC has only been 19 partially successful in fulfilling this mandate. CBC 20 television is boldly attempting to provide Canadians 21 with diverse, all-Canadian programming in the face of 22 continual budget cuts and increasing competition from 23 the private sector, and in particularly specialty 24 channels. 25 39 Meanwhile, CBC radio suffers as a StenoTran 8 1 result of the CRTC's role in allowing the radio 2 industry to become a tightly formatted and restrictive 3 broadcaster. 4 40 I would like to make a few comments 5 first about television and then I will go on to radio. 6 41 Concerning television, funding is one 7 of the major challenges facing CBC television and a 8 lack of a defined plan. Those parties accountable for 9 the CBC have not positioned the broadcaster to be 10 competitive or to provide local programming. For CBC 11 television to successfully fulfil its mandate -- i.e., 12 the promotion of a diverse voice across Canada -- the 13 broadcaster needs to re-establish itself as a local 14 broadcaster. 15 42 Currently, the CRTC does not require 16 cable distributors to comply with local content 17 requirements, we feel. Also, the CRTC does not require 18 or strongly support an initiative that would require 19 the CBC to re-establish itself in this role. This 20 would provide CBC with the opportunity to provide 21 Canadians nationally, regionally and locally with one 22 strong solid voice. 23 43 Those are the few comments I would 24 like to make about television. 25 44 In the radio area, as we expect, in StenoTran 9 1 regions such as Cape Breton the presence of CBC is 2 essential. Smaller markets, particularly rural areas, 3 regard the CBC as their sole being of receiving and 4 dispersing information with respect to their community. 5 This is especially true of CBC radio. 6 45 The current work stoppage aside, we 7 feel the CRTC has indirectly frustrated the ability to 8 carry out its mandate because of private radio station 9 owners since the 1980s and 1990s have been allowed to 10 make their own rules apparently. 11 46 Twenty years ago there were many 12 diverse signals out there, but private sector owners in 13 radio have become smaller and smaller, and it seems the 14 signal is controlled by fewer and fewer broadcasters, 15 providing for a diversification of the signal. 16 47 Now with only a handful of owners, 17 diversity is nearly non-existent. In effect, the 18 situation has gotten to the point where station owners 19 are acting as if they are self-regulated as opposed to 20 being regulated by the Commission. 21 48 The emergence of these formats has 22 left little or no room for community reflection in 23 programming. The CBC is the only one out there 24 striving to provide diverse voices, a goal they 25 continue to meet despite funding cuts. StenoTran 10 1 49 However, CBC needs to look at local 2 instead of just regional positioning. A feeder system 3 needs to be created. Such a system would enable CBC to 4 air programs which would display local talent and 5 concerns in conjunction with the local, national and 6 regional programming. A system of this nature would 7 ensure that Cape Bretoners receive more than a "Toronto 8 voice". 9 50 The last page or so outlined the 10 current obstacles that prevent the CBC from providing 11 services to under-serviced local areas such as Cape 12 Breton. This presentation would not be complete unless 13 the time was taken to reflect upon the solutions to 14 these problems. A few of these solutions I have 15 mentioned throughout the previous discussion. 16 51 The CRTC should require broadcasters 17 to pursue not only a Canadian content mandate, but also 18 a local content mandate. Such a mandate would be 19 limited to only the CBC, Global, Baton and others in 20 the broadcasting television signal area. 21 52 Develop a feeder system with local 22 radio stations. This would result in CBC radio 23 providing a more diverse range of programming. 24 53 The above-mentioned solutions do not 25 address the current fiscal problem with the CBC. The StenoTran 11 1 CBC is our radio station, our television network. It 2 is crucial the diverse programming the CBC attempts to 3 produce be supported by government. Currently this 4 support is not there. 5 54 The CRTC must recognize that if CBC 6 is to remain our radio station, our television station, 7 it is going to need a fiscal assistant. As a 8 consequence of these discussions, I would urge the CRTC 9 to recommend that the government give CBC preferential 10 treatment and provide the dollars necessary for CBC to 11 feed into local matters. 12 55 In conclusion, the people of Cape 13 Breton and other local under-serviced areas depend upon 14 CBC for a voice. Unless the CRTC urges the Federal 15 Government to act, the small voice that these 16 communities currently have will be silent. 17 56 Thank you. 18 57 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 19 much, Mr. Corbett. 20 58 Mr. Stewart. 21 1320 22 59 M. STEWART: Merci, monsieur le 23 Président. 24 60 I would now like to call upon 25 Ms Elizabeth Cusack to make her presentation. StenoTran 12 1 61 Ms. Cusack. 2 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 3 62 MS CUSACK: Thank you. In order to 4 stay within the time constraint of ten minutes, I am 5 going to read my notes. 6 63 My name is Elizabeth Cusack, Q.C. I 7 am a lawyer who has practised in Sydney, Nova Scotia 8 since 1974. I was born in 1949 here in Cape Breton. I 9 am a supporter of Friends of Canadian Broadcasting and 10 Media Watch. I have freelanced on CBC radio locally, 11 nationally and regionally in earlier years but have no 12 current affiliation with the CBC. 13 64 I wish to emphasize the importance of 14 retaining what little we have left of local CBC radio 15 programming. We once had local CBC and private TV and 16 radio programming. Today we have no local TV 17 programming, except for one religious show, and we have 18 little local substance on our three canned commercial 19 stations -- all of them owned by Maritime Broadcasting. 20 65 Although we have not gotten down to 21 the appalling 2.8 per cent viewer exposure to local 22 Canadian content, which is the norm for Canadian TV, we 23 are getting close to that with lack of local content on 24 our private radio sources, because of the canned nature 25 of the programming. StenoTran 13 1 66 The current CBC strike dramatically 2 indicates the vital importance of an active, physically 3 present local CBC station. Currently, information and 4 comment about the local economy is almost totally 5 absent except for very sketchy coverage in our very 6 small local Southam daily. Because of the strike at 7 this time of grave economic crisis, the only media 8 source able to provide a public voice to those able to 9 make a contribution to the discussion as to the 10 solution of our economic problem is silenced. 11 67 At present, the only local news we 12 hear in regional broadcasts is that which is dramatic 13 and about such things as demonstrations and sit-ins. 14 68 While it may seem a small point, when 15 there was a storm a week or two ago, Cape Bretoners 16 couldn't figure out whether there was school for most 17 of the island's children because Halifax broadcasters 18 didn't understand our geography. They issued several 19 contradictory directives. 20 69 A few weeks earlier, at night, when 21 we had no local programming, I searched the dial trying 22 to find out about Devco's fate. All I heard were Bill 23 Clinton stories and Shania Twain. 24 70 You only have to hear from frustrated 25 people along route 4 south of Ben Eoin -- and you can StenoTran 14 1 look that up -- and those in Richmond County to know 2 that Halifax programming is not appropriate and that 3 local non-commercial programming is weak in substance. 4 People along Route 4 in Richmond County and some of 5 Inverness County cannot get CBC Cape Breton. The CBC 6 provides the only interactive radio voice in Cape 7 Breton, and part of the island is not even served by 8 our local station. 9 71 When I listen to our local CBC 10 programs, I learn about and have the option to 11 participate in the discussion of local issues 12 respecting the arts, literature, politics, education, 13 economic development, sports and humour, all from a 14 local perspective and all from local interest. 15 72 When these programs are replaced by 16 provincial formats -- as particularly often happens 17 with our afternoon show, to save money -- there is 18 little opportunity for us to hear Cape Breton music, 19 Cape Breton news, Cape Breton voices and concerns. 20 73 Before the big cutbacks, the local 21 station recorded and produced numerous talented Cape 22 Bretoners, who are now known nationally and in some 23 cases internationally, or who, if they stayed closer to 24 home -- like Max MacDonald -- are producing cultural 25 events which bring millions into our economy each year. StenoTran 15 1 Moreover, senior traditional artists were recorded and 2 their work preserved by the local CBC. 3 74 I emphasize "before the cutbacks". 4 75 I can say without fear of 5 contradiction from any local person, present our 6 outside, that there is no doubt that without CBI we 7 would not have had the island-wide support which was a 8 necessary precedent to the ability of our artists to 9 obtain exposure off island. This was in no small part 10 due to the "word of mouth" from those who first heard 11 our artists on CBC radio locally. 12 76 One only has to listen to recent 13 Saturday morning regional programming on CBC Maritimes 14 to know that there is no hope or possibility that Cape 15 Breton artists will have exposure without a 16 properly-funded, local CBC station. 17 77 It is unreasonable to suggest that 18 commercial radio can fill that void or that it will be 19 filled by regional programming, which only supports 20 local Cape Breton artists after they've made it -- 21 except in unusual circumstances. 22 78 While I urge a return of local and 23 regional TV and radio, I wish to emphasize that what is 24 left of the national English programming on CBC is of 25 extreme importance, not only as a source of StenoTran 16 1 high-quality, cultural programs, such as "Choral 2 Concert" to "Ideas", but there is the information and 3 news programming which is so vital to our nation. 4 79 CBC programs are responsive to 5 grassroots issues of interest to women, cultural and 6 ethnic or racial groups, and First Nations peoples. 7 Those interests will never be served in the lower 8 populated areas of the country without CBC. 9 80 It is impossible to conceive that 10 commercial radio will fill that gap. One only has to 11 cruise the thousands of radio stations available on the 12 Net to hear that the best quality programming comes 13 from public radio and particularly independent, 14 publicly-funded radio in Great Britain, Ireland and 15 Canada in particular. 16 81 With the exception of limited 17 specialty stations and university stations, there is 18 little in North America that isn't formatted in one 19 canned mode or another. Web radio's version of ethnic 20 programming does not even include a single French 21 language station. 22 82 Most of canada is too small to 23 support such good quality stations as CJRT in Toronto. 24 83 The demographics of this country are 25 such that we cannot have high quality private local StenoTran 17 1 programming of the calibre produced by the national 2 CBC. The CBC has the ability to provide us with a 3 broad spectrum of music -- classical, folk, jazz, world 4 music and so on. Some of this is available on the 5 Galaxy Channels for those who can afford satellite TV, 6 but without any intelligent information about the 7 content. 8 84 The CBC provides the only consistent 9 national broadcast outlet for Canadian novelists, 10 poets, scientists, historians and philosophers. 11 85 I wish to add my voice to that of a 12 number of others who would rather see hockey relegated 13 to CTV and TNN. The disruption of regular programming 14 in the spring is extremely annoying to those of us who 15 are not hockey lovers and drives non-hockey fans to 16 American programming. 17 86 I wish to emphasize the importance of 18 CBC's independence, an independence which is being 19 eroded by tactics to force the CBC to take on both the 20 appearance and substance of government patsyism. This, 21 together with the use of cutbacks to weaken the CBC's 22 ability to provide quality programming, is the biggest 23 threat of to our beloved institution. 24 87 I do not think it melodramatic or 25 alarmist to suggest that the cutbacks and tightening of StenoTran 18 1 political control are a threat to our nationhood. 2 Privatization and/or increased commercialization will 3 destroy the soul of the CBC. The CBC's integrity is 4 founded on its fine tradition of journalistic 5 objectivity -- regardless of the complaints of those 6 who are occasionally cast in an unattractive spotlight. 7 88 Finally, I wish to underscore the 8 importance of the CBC to women. 9 89 The CBC treats women with more 10 dignity and respect, and provides better employment 11 opportunities, than the private sector. More 12 importantly, the CBC is interested in the advancement 13 of women. 14 90 I would like to refer in particular 15 to International Women's Day and a wonderful program 16 last night on "As It Happens", about the genital 17 mutilation of women in Africa. That sort of 18 information is not available on commercial radio. 19 91 Thank you for the opportunity to be 20 heard. I trust you will listen to the concerns which I 21 expect you will hear from others in Cape Breton, and 22 nationwide, about the importance of retaining local 23 services in smaller but discreetly insular and diverse 24 local communities. 25 92 I commend to you the well-written StenoTran 19 1 brief of the Friends of Canadian Broadcasting about the 2 importance of local CBC TV programming in Winnipeg. 3 That report is equally applicable to local communities 4 in Atlantic Canada and is published on the CRTC's web 5 site. 6 93 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 7 much, Ms Cusack. 8 94 Mr. Stewart. 9 1330 10 95 MR. STEWART: I would now like to 11 invite Mr. Parker Donham to make his presentation. 12 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 13 96 MR. DONHAM: Good afternoon. Thank 14 you for the opportunity to present here. 15 97 I want to say at the outset that I 16 endorse pretty well everything that Liz Cusack just 17 said. As it happens, because I think I have some 18 unusual experience in and around the CBC, I am 19 discussing quite a different set of issues, but nothing 20 that I say should be taken as in any way detracting 21 from the very important points that Liz has raised. I 22 heartily agree with much of what she said. 23 98 Out of curiosity, is the Province 24 registered to make any presentation at these hearings? 25 99 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. StenoTran 20 1 100 MR. DONHAM: I wonder if that would 2 have been the case when you were handling those matters 3 for the province, Mr. Commissioner. 4 101 I should declare at the outset that I 5 make a slice of my income from current affairs 6 freelance work for the CBC, and mostly regional 7 programs at that. So I have a personal stake in many 8 of the issues before the Commission, and I probably 9 won't be one of the advocates of killing off supper 10 hour news shows. 11 102 For just over a year, in the late 12 1970s, the CBC employed me to produce its "Information 13 Morning" program in Sydney. It was one of the most 14 unpleasant workplaces I ever experiences. 15 103 Managers with too little to do and 16 too much time to do it in constantly squared off 17 against a small cadre of underworked staffers who used 18 their union affiliations as a shield against production 19 responsibilities. This infused the simplest tasks with 20 potential for personal conflict. A web of unspoken 21 rules throttled productivity. At coffee and meal 22 breaks work ground to a halt, and the staff lunchroom 23 overflowed. 24 104 All this happened despite a great 25 majority of energetic broadcasters, men and women of StenoTran 21 1 goodwill, who only wanted to produce first-rate 2 programs. 3 105 Then something remarkable occurred. 4 A few years ago, in one of the seemingly perpetual 5 rounds of CBC cuts, the last management position in 6 Sydney disappeared. Around the same time the CBC 7 bought off Sydney's most truculent unionists with 8 pensions. 9 106 Today there is not a single manager 10 in the building. They had to fly one in to run the 11 essential equipment during the strike. Yet the place 12 runs like a top. You don't find malcontents skulking 13 around the lunchroom. Staffers are at their desks or 14 out in the field doing their job -- and doing it very 15 well. The results are remarkable. 16 107 Sydney produces an exceptionally good 17 "Information Morning" program, far better than when I 18 produced it, with half again as many bodies. Its 19 coverage of local issues is more detailed and 20 thoughtful than that of the daily papers available 21 locally. Listeners have rewarded this performance. 22 108 As private radio stations -- perhaps 23 in part because of CRTC policies -- abandoned their 24 community ties and homogenized into a bland sameness, 25 "Information Morning's" ratings have soared. StenoTran 22 1 109 I believe there is a lesson for the 2 CBC in this experience and in the experience of another 3 Cape Breton industry that has undergone wrenching 4 change. I am here with the novel suggestion that the 5 CBC should look to a railway for inspiration. 6 110 In the fall of 1993 Canadian National 7 sold its Truro to Sydney section of its mainline to 8 Railtex, the U.S. company that buys money-losing branch 9 lines from mainline railways and turns them into profit 10 centres. 11 111 Railtex's formula works like this: 12 Each Railtex line operates as a separate business unit 13 under a local manager given broad authority over all 14 aspects of the business. A Railtex line typically 15 employs half as many workers as its mainline 16 predecessor, and those workers must master a variety of 17 trades. Instead of the traditional three-man crew, 18 consisting of engineer, brakeman and conductor, a 19 Railtex train operates with two transportation 20 specialists. On an outbound run, one might drive the 21 train while the other performs the outdoor duties; 22 homeward bound, they switch. If the run takes less 23 than eight hours, they might finish the shift doing an 24 oil change or even cutting brush along the track. 25 112 The company issues business cards to StenoTran 23 1 each of its employees and encourages them to keep an 2 eye cocked for shipping prospects. "If you notice a 3 truck down at the other end of the loading dock", they 4 are told, "find out what it is carrying, where it is 5 going. Our sales people may not be able to get that 6 information going in the front door." 7 113 Instead of waiting for higher-ups to 8 make decisions in the command and control style of CN, 9 employees are free to solve problems themselves as they 10 arise. 11 114 I rode a Railtex train once from 12 Sydney to the switching yard at Harbour Bushy, and the 13 two transpecs, Everett Sullivan and Howie Clow, told me 14 about the first time they ran into trouble after 15 Railtex had taken over. They were carrying a heavy 16 load of steel, newsprint and 30 cars of coal for Nova 17 Scotia Power's Trenton power plant. 18 115 It was snowing and at Marshie Hope, 19 which is the steepest grade on the Truro to Sydney run, 20 the engine's driving wheels began slipping. The 21 quickest solution would have been to drop the coal off 22 the end of the train, complete the run to Truro with 23 the steel and paper and then return later for the coal. 24 But left outside overnight, the coal might freeze, 25 making it infinitely harder for Nova Scotia Power to StenoTran 24 1 use. So Clow and Sullivan took the extra time to drop 2 the coal, back the steel and paper onto a siding and 3 then reconnect with the coal cars and take them to New 4 Glasgow, where they arranged for a shunter engine to 5 deliver it to Trenton that very night. 6 116 After they had done this, the cell 7 phone rang in the cab of their truck: "How are you 8 getting along in the snow", asked assistant manager 9 Peter McCaren. Sullivan explained what they had done. 10 "Whose idea was that?", McCaren demanded gruffly. 11 Sullivan glanced at Clow. "Well, we talked it over and 12 it seemed like the best thing to do." "Well, you're 13 right", said the manager, "and I appreciate your taking 14 the time to do it right. It will make it a lot easier 15 for Nova Scotia Power." 16 117 After telling me this perhaps not 17 remarkable story, Sullivan said: "You know, if that 18 had happened under CN, we would have had to park the 19 train, call Moncton and ask someone what to do. The 20 guy in Moncton would have told us to hang on while he 21 went down the hall to ask his boss. His boss would 22 have called Montreal, where the person wouldn't have 23 even known where Trenton was. And at the end of it, 24 they either would have told us to do the wrong thing, 25 or what we would have done in the first place: it StenoTran 25 1 would have been left up to us." 2 118 Clow and Sullivan make lower wages 3 than they did when they were unionized CN employees, 4 but a few days after the close of each fiscal quarter a 5 percentage of the line's pre-tax profits is distributed 6 to each employee, according to a locally-determined 7 formula. The profit-sharing makes up for some, but not 8 all, of the wage gap. 9 119 The result? The customers love it. 10 There are a hundred stories about little extra acts of 11 courtesy and consideration for customers since Railtex 12 took over the Truro to Sydney line. Shippers get much 13 better service, so they start sending more by rail. 14 Companies contemplating setting up in this area can 15 count on having an excellent rail service. Sales, 16 coupled with lower costs, produce profits, so the 17 shareholders are happy. And instead of an abandoned 18 line, we have a line that employs fewer people than it 19 did before, but it employs people. 20 120 Perhaps most important, the workers I 21 have spoken with report a more satisfying job work 22 life, mainly because they have more control over their 23 work. 24 121 The remarkable thing about this 25 change is that when Railtex took over the Sydney line, StenoTran 26 1 all but a handful of the 47 workers it hired were 2 former unionized employees of that very line from CN. 3 And as its assistant manager, it hired McCaren, who was 4 himself a former CN exec, who has since become the 5 overall manager of this Railtex unit. 6 122 "How can they do it?", a CN 7 vice-president demanded when he heard of the soaring 8 customer satisfaction. "How can they do a better job 9 than we ever did, using our own manager and our own 10 workers, and only half as many of them?" 11 123 I am here before the CRTC today to 12 propose a restructuring of the CBC far more radical 13 than the familiar recipe one hears out of Toronto: you 14 know, the destruction of regional programming and 15 moving everything to -- surprise -- Toronto. 16 124 What if the CBC were reorganized into 17 a multitude of completely autonomous units, in which 18 creative local programmers enjoyed a free hand to 19 develop their markets as they saw fit, with a minimum 20 of bureaucratic oversight? Instead of a national 21 template imposed on, say, every drive-home radio show 22 in Canada, St. John's might produce an afternoon show 23 very different from Winnipeg's. 24 125 And why not? Winnipeg and St. John's 25 are very different places -- although you might not StenoTran 27 1 know it from listening to the CBC, and you certainly 2 would not know it from listening to private radio. 3 126 Autonomous programming units might be 4 geographically based -- Sydney radio, Victoria TV -- or 5 defined by a particular program as it happens: Vinyl 6 Cafe. But they could enjoy a new level of editorial 7 and creative independence, a mandate to innovate and 8 connect with their audiences. 9 127 Give creative talented Canadian 10 broadcasters this leeway and let a thousand flowers 11 bloom. 12 128 In such an environment multi-tasking 13 would be essential, not primarily to give managers more 14 flexibility -- which is how the CBC always tries to 15 sell it -- but to give each member of the production 16 team an understanding of what every other person does 17 and how the parts fit together. 18 129 When people spend all their time in 19 one function, they see every issue from a single 20 perspective, like Jack Stack in the great game of 21 business, and they can't appreciate other departments' 22 needs. Walls go up, communication is terrible. 23 130 I would like to see every CBC 24 employee spend one or two days a month doing jobs they 25 are completely unused to. Let two staff members with StenoTran 28 1 sharply different roles trade jobs. Let them see their 2 program from different perspectives than their own. 3 131 Making a radically decentralized CBC 4 work will also require a level of openness and 5 communication that runs contrary to deeply entrenched 6 CBC culture. Here the CBC could usefully borrow from a 7 movement among progressive U.S. businesses known an 8 open book management. 9 132 Let's say a supper hour news show has 10 $2 million to spend in a fiscal year. Every person in 11 the unit should know that fact, and representatives 12 from every craft in the team should have a role in 13 deciding how to allocate that budget in a transparent, 14 zero-based process that would occur annually. Once a 15 budget is established, copies should be distributed to 16 every member of the production team, and at least once 17 a month a clear, understandable statement of 18 expenditures in the previous month and year to date 19 should be distributed to every member of the team. 20 133 This is not the CBC way -- nor, in 21 fairness, is it the way most companies operate. The 22 usual approach to budgets is to let front-line workers 23 know as little as possible, a practice that breeds 24 suspicion, jealousy and inefficiency. 25 134 When money is short -- which it is -- StenoTran 29 1 every dollar must be directed to achieving programming 2 goals. Every member of the team must understand her 3 role in that process. A manager who keeps secrets from 4 the staff can't achieve that. 5 135 Open book management will also 6 reassure staff that more than enough work exists to 7 fill the day of everyone in the unit. That, in turn, 8 may lessen resistance to, and even enlist the team's 9 help in, finding low-cost ways to put compelling 10 reports on air. If a team sees $1,000 in meal 11 displacements show up month after month, they may start 12 agitating for better ways to spend that money on 13 production. 14 136 The trickiest aspect of the scheme I 15 propose would be to develop benchmarks for 16 accountability. Where a rail line can use profit as a 17 ready yardstick of performance, CBC production units 18 would need subtler measures. Ratings, television ad 19 sales, audience surveys, peer reviews, and 20 contributions to national programs could all be part of 21 the mix. 22 137 That is really my presentation. I 23 did write out some answers to your questions, but I 24 think I have probably used up my time. So I will leave 25 it at that. StenoTran 30 1 138 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 2 Donham. Your proposal is an interesting one. 3 139 If we get through all of the 4 presentations at a reasonable hour, such that a few of 5 us can eat before we go to the evening session, I would 6 be happy for those who can stay to open this up for a 7 bit of discussion around the table on some of these 8 issues. I find often if we are able to do that, we can 9 get as many good suggestions as we do out of the 10 presentations. 11 140 I suspect your Railtex example could 12 be the basis for a good script. It would be a good 13 storyline for a new series on television: "The Last 14 Profitable Railway in Canada", something like that as a 15 follow-on to "Pit Pony" maybe. 16 141 If we have time for discussion, maybe 17 we can pursue some of these issues a little later. 18 142 Mr. Stewart. 19 1345 20 143 MR. STEWART: Thank you. I now 21 invite Mr. Pat Bates to make his presentation. 22 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 23 144 MR. BATES: Thank you very much. 24 145 I must say it is both intimidating 25 and helpful to follow such well-articulated StenoTran 31 1 presentations from people who have had some prior 2 experience in broadcasting or who are making their 3 living in broadcasting today. I have to plead from the 4 point of view of a mere listener. 5 146 My name is Pat Bates. I am retired. 6 I continue to be involved in some community projects. 7 My only qualification is that I am an avid listener and 8 supporter of CBC. 9 147 I might also say that I like to think 10 I am a contributing member, in a modest way, to Friends 11 of Public Broadcasting in Canada and value the work 12 that that organization is trying to do. 13 148 Mr. Chairman, I have an outline which 14 I am going to read in part and speak to in part, if 15 that is all right. I will be respectful of the time 16 allocated for that. 17 149 First of all, I have stated already 18 that I am a supporter of CBC, period, in the strongest 19 sense. 20 150 Having said that, I want to make a 21 few observations that might be construed as perhaps 22 being critical; and I would like to think they are 23 constructively critical, if that is the way they are 24 perceived. 25 151 First of all, CBC, the corporation, StenoTran 32 1 in my view, should enunciate clearly and frequently its 2 philosophy and its objective in respect to both leading 3 the way and accommodating the aspirations of Canadians 4 for good and valued public broadcasting. This, in my 5 view, is not being done adequately; or to the extent 6 that we do it, we give the appearance of apologizing 7 for promoting or advancing the value of public 8 broadcasting in a country such as ours. 9 152 I do acknowledge that there are a 10 variety of messages that do come across the airwaves 11 from time to time, and undoubtedly they are styled and 12 designed to convey the importance of the public 13 broadcasting role the CBC is playing. But somehow the 14 corporation has to find a way to overreach government. 15 153 Government will listen to its 16 constituents, and I think the CBC has to make a much 17 greater impression on the constituents on its power 18 base. As somebody said recently, CBC is ours; it's not 19 the government's. It is probably the only corporation 20 in which I will own shares as a taxpayer. 21 154 Secondly, I want to highlight 22 something that I call the vehicle. To put it in that 23 context is certainly not in broadcasting language by 24 which anybody understands it. I put it this way: It 25 is awkward to separate the network from the StenoTran 33 1 programming. It is useful to examine the vastness of 2 the network in terms of coverage and availability to 3 service the evolving demand on a public broadcaster. 4 The engineering, technical and corporate structure of 5 the vehicle has to be maintained and at the disposal of 6 Canadians. 7 155 What I mean by that is that if we 8 commence the dismembering of the infrastructure -- or 9 if I could parlay into computer language, the hardware 10 versus the software, the software in that context being 11 programming -- it means if the budget gets so tight 12 that there has to be a closure of stations, that 13 stations in Lethbridge -- assuming that there is one 14 there -- or in Brandon or Corner Brook have to be 15 extinguished as a result of the cutbacks, then it means 16 that the vehicle is being impaired. 17 156 Networking: Before examining 18 programming, it might be useful to offer one's opinion 19 on what I call the inter-correctiveness or 20 inter-connectiveness of coverage. As a listener -- and 21 I refer primarily to radio in this context -- I tend to 22 view the breadth of broadcasting span as follows. 23 157 For example, the tendency locally -- 24 and I suspect it is the same across Canada -- is to put 25 broadcasting in the context of regional versus StenoTran 34 1 national. I tend to look at it, from my listening 2 vantage point, as sub-regional. By that, I mean 3 sub-regional being Fredericton, Charlottetown, Halifax, 4 St. John's, Sydney, et cetera. Regional I tend to view 5 as the collectivity of the above. 6 158 Even in the context of regional I 7 think there is room for some improvement. For those of 8 us who live in the Maritimes, we talk about the 9 Maritime Region. If you live and work in St. John's or 10 Corner Brook, you talk about the Atlantic Region. Too 11 seldom does the CBC -- or do others, for that matter -- 12 do a reasonable job in bringing the interest of these 13 various sub-regions and regions together. I think 14 there are yards to be made in that context. 15 159 National is coast to coast to coast. 16 The recent establishment of the new government in 17 Iqaluit I think is an example of how important it is 18 that we have the coverage of this type on all coasts in 19 Canada. 20 160 International is CBC Radio 21 International. One only need refer to the debate not 22 more than a year and a half or so ago with respect to 23 the proposed close-down of the Radio International 24 station here at Sackville. 25 161 Programming: This aspect of my StenoTran 35 1 commentary most often reflects one's individual tastes 2 and values. Considerable elaboration could be 3 provided, but I will list examples, subjective as they 4 may be, of quality broadcasting. 5 162 Again, as a listener, these are the 6 things that I measure the quality of CBC by. 7 163 Sub-regional: "Information Morning", 8 "Mainstreet" here in Sydney, I think represents the 9 type of broadcasting across the Atlantic. Regional out 10 of Halifax, "Maritimes Magazine", "Maritime Noon"; and 11 out of St. John's, Newfoundland, the "Fisherman's 12 Broadcast". 13 164 National, "Cross Country Check-up", 14 "As It Happens", "Ideas", and "This Morning". 15 165 I have to say, in passing, that 16 "Ideas", in my view, is one of the best programs that 17 CBC radio features. It probably doesn't get as much 18 promotion as it deserves, and I think Canadians not 19 taking advantage of it are being cheated or are 20 cheating themselves. 21 166 And of course international, it is 22 the CBC's "Overseas Programming Mix". Occasionally, we 23 will hear from Canadians who live and work in other 24 countries, and they speak eloquently of course to the 25 value and to the homesickness, if one wants to put it StenoTran 36 1 that way, and the desire for good programming from the 2 homeland. 3 167 Looking at the broadcasting -- and 4 again, I am talking primarily about radio -- I suppose 5 we look at Radio One and Radio Two. One only has so 6 many listening hours in the day, and perhaps my 7 listening is more sketchy than it should be. But I 8 definitely span the dial, and I appreciate the value on 9 both bands. 10 168 Programs like "Definitely Not The 11 Opera", with Eric Freisen, Bill Richardson, Marjery 12 Doyle, Catherine Duncan, all of whom bring a mix of 13 music to those who like the classical music that is 14 presented by the CBC. 15 169 I think it is only fair to comment on 16 where private broadcasters fit in this mix. I will put 17 it this way: We get criticism locally for not playing 18 enough Cape Breton style music, Celtic music. I think 19 CBC does an admirable job. I think the folks who do 20 the programming there bend over backwards to provide 21 support. 22 170 But somewhere in the mix of music 23 presentations there has to be some adjudication made. 24 One of the earlier presenters talked about private 25 broadcasting in music. I look at it that in most local StenoTran 37 1 private broadcast radio stations today, the diet is 2 wall-to-wall music interspersed with six or eight 3 30-second spots. 4 171 That is not being disrespectful at 5 all. It simply means that the alternatives in 6 listening are quite clear. 7 172 Inter-connectiveness: CBC, in my 8 view, is the glue to the country. The ability of 9 Canadians to hear and exchange views on local, 10 sub-regional issues, regional issues and policy 11 concerns, national matters of all potential prospects, 12 international issues, is facilitated through our 13 national broadcast vehicle with its evolving 14 programming agenda. 15 173 Again, speaking perhaps in parables, 16 Mr. Chairman, over the past eight or nine months since 17 we have had this economic crisis here, CBC has just 18 been magnificent, in my view, in the type of coverage 19 it has provided to the community. 20 174 By way of example, one of the 21 journalists has done an outstanding job in comparing 22 the experience in coal mining shutdowns, revisions, and 23 so on in Wales. We have had some of the other 24 journalists deal with some of the international 25 consultants who have come here to examine the mining StenoTran 38 1 situation so those of us who are lay people can 2 understand structural problems in the Maritimes. 3 175 We have had Maritime United Halifax 4 do some excellent coverage of local issues. 5 176 I am repeating what others have 6 already said, but I want to put it in the context of 7 real programming, the context of the titles of the 8 programs that are meaningful to us. 9 177 I assume somebody will ring a bell if 10 I go overtime too much. I am drawing to a close. 11 178 In perspective, there is no 12 substitute for good quality public broadcasting. There 13 should be an increase in funding for CBC and more 14 independence for news and public affairs management. 15 Music, our culture, on a sub-regional and regional 16 basis, needs more promotion. 17 179 Financing for CBC should be continued 18 to be based on parliamentary allocation. However, an 19 advisory council on public broadcasting in Canada 20 should be created to advise government and parliament 21 on the role of public broadcasting in Canada, with 22 particular emphasis on funding. 23 180 I don't share the hang-ups that many 24 people have in terms of CBC selling commercials to fund 25 its activities. I say that having heard the very novel StenoTran 39 1 idea that was advanced by the preceding presenter. 2 181 With regard to TV -- and I will not 3 take any time with that, Mr. Chairman, because I value 4 CBC TV in the same respect as I value CBC radio. 5 182 I think it remains the conscience of 6 television broadcasting in Canada, and in its absence a 7 wasteland of television telecasting will likely 8 surface. 9 183 In closing, if I could speak 10 metaphorically -- and one has to be careful these days 11 in what you say and how you say it -- If I had the 12 authority and the influence, I would declare CBC an 13 essential service. 14 184 On that note, I thank you very much. 15 I appreciate your time. 16 185 THE CHAIRPERSON: It seems a few 17 others agree with you. 18 186 Thank you very much, Mr. Bates. 19 187 Mr. Stewart. 20 1355 21 188 MR. STEWART: Thank you. 22 189 I would now ask Ms Kelly Jerrott to 23 make her presentation. 24 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 25 190 MS JERROTT: Thank you. I represent StenoTran 40 1 the Savoy Theatre Society which owns and operates the 2 Savoy Theatre located in Glace Bay, Nova Scotia. I am 3 also representing the Performing Arts Organizations of 4 Nova Scotia. 5 191 Just to give you a little bit of 6 background on those two organizations, the Savoy 7 Theatre Society is a not for profit society, which 8 consists of a volunteer board of directors. Our main 9 purpose is to provide a regional venue for the 10 promotion of cultural, educational, literary and 11 entertainment interests dedicated to the development of 12 local talent in the Cape Breton area. 13 192 The main focus of the Performing Arts 14 Society is to serve the presenters, which are all not 15 for profit presenters across Nova Scotia. The main 16 purpose there is to promote touring across the province 17 and to develop audiences across the province at the 18 performing arts venues. 19 193 The CBC serves the needs of the live 20 performing arts by providing another venue for our 21 artists on the air, as well as assisting artists by 22 introducing them to the rest of the country. One of 23 the main objectives of PASONS, the Performing Arts 24 Society, is to promote touring throughout our region 25 and to provide an opportunity for people within our StenoTran 41 1 region to experience a variety of forms of live 2 performing arts. 3 194 Within the limited budget that CBC 4 does have, it does a wonderful job in promoting touring 5 for regional and national artists who may not be as 6 well known in certain areas of the country. Quite 7 often, CBC assists many of the performing arts venues, 8 whether it is interviews or just keeping us up to date 9 within the community as to what is going on in our 10 area. 11 195 This of course helps with the sale of 12 music for our local artists and artists right across 13 the country, as well as the sale of tickets to help 14 those artists. 15 196 We need a national perspective that 16 CBC provides, not just in the arts but in other current 17 events and issues facing us across the country and 18 around the world. 19 197 The CBC provides a much more hands-on 20 approach than any of the other radio stations in our 21 area. They are willing to come out and come to the 22 venue and cover local events, whether it is on TV or 23 radio. We have received a great deal of support from 24 CBC to assist us in promoting our local theatre, as 25 well as theatres across the province, as well promoting StenoTran 42 1 the local artists that appear on our stages. 2 198 The regional programming is essential 3 to maintain the diversity that Canadians have become 4 known for. Regional programs such as our local radio 5 programs, "Information Morning" and "Mainstreet", as 6 well as our local TV news programs, provide a vital 7 link in our communities connecting them with the rest 8 of the country. 9 199 "The Arts Report" on First Edition, 10 as well as various other programs, such as Laurie 11 Brown's "On the Arts" and "Life and Times", provide a 12 great medium to introduce artists to Canadians and 13 provide us with a little bit more insight into their 14 lives and their passions their careers often become. 15 200 Many of our radio stations are going 16 to the pre-recorded programming that some of the other 17 speakers have talked about. This has very little local 18 content. CBC is the mainstay, and it is quite often 19 the only station that involves the community in its 20 programming. 21 201 When you tune in to some of our other 22 radio stations, it is very difficult to tell what 23 station you are listening to. It could be from 24 anywhere at all. Quite often it is the same music that 25 is played again and again each time you tune in. StenoTran 43 1 202 CBC Radio One and Two provide what 2 has become a unique opportunity for Canadian artists to 3 be heard. The Canadian content and local content 4 played on our airwaves must be preserved. 5 203 Just in the last few weeks during the 6 current labour dispute, we in the cultural industry and 7 the music industry have noticed a real difference 8 without the local programming in terms of the reduced 9 opportunity to get the information on local artists and 10 what is going on: for example, the East Coast Music 11 Awards that recently happened; the Juno Awards that 12 have been on recently. 13 204 It results in a direct result for us 14 in terms of the sales of the artist's music and a 15 reduction in ticket sales. It limits the community's 16 awareness as far as what is going on. 17 205 For the millennium, some of the 18 things that our organizations have outlined that we 19 feel are vital: CBC should continue with its regional 20 and local programming; should continue to support 21 Canadian artists and arts presenters; should continue 22 to promote live entertainment; continue to cover 23 current events; and continue to involve and include 24 real people in their programs. 25 206 Thank you. StenoTran 44 1 207 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 2 much, Ms Jerrott. 3 208 Mr. Stewart. 4 1400 5 209 MR. STEWART: I now call upon 6 Ms Beverly Brett to make her presentation. 7 210 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Brett. 8 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 9 211 MS BRETT: I am a freelance theatre 10 director, writer, popular theatre facilitator, drama 11 teacher, and Artistic Director of the St. Anne's Bay 12 Players. I will speak mostly as the Artistic Director 13 of the St. Anne's Bay Players, because this is mostly 14 my own experience, although I have worked with a lot of 15 other arts organizations on the island and other 16 theatre companies. 17 212 Also, as a board member of PARC, 18 which is Playwrights Atlantic Resource Centre, which 19 serves Atlantic Canadian playwrights. 20 213 I will just mention a little bit 21 about the theatre company that I am involved with. 22 214 It is a community-based theatre 23 company. It is not a professional theatre company, 24 although over the years we have done an awful lot of 25 the same types of work that professional theatre StenoTran 45 1 companies have done. 2 215 This is important, because a lot of 3 our work is based on community issues, doing 4 collectives on issues such as the environment, or the 5 fisheries. We have been involved in historical 6 pageants, school tours, heritage projects, plays by 7 Cape Breton playwrights as well as Canadian 8 playwrights. A lot of this reflects the culture of 9 Cape Breton. 10 216 We have also toured to a lot of 11 different places. I am giving you this information 12 because the CBC has always recognized this and has 13 always supported us. It has been a valuable supporter 14 of everything we have done and a great resource. 15 Because we don't have the money to pay for advertising 16 on the other radio stations, this has been a wonderful 17 way of getting publicity. 18 217 What I would like to say about the 19 publicity and the exposure is that it has been done in 20 such a way that it has respected artistic integrity of 21 the group. The questions are always intelligent. 22 There is an awareness that there is artistic direction 23 or vision behind the production. 24 218 During the late eighties and 25 nineties -- in early nineties, anyway -- when they used StenoTran 46 1 to come out -- I am not aware that they still do, but 2 Wendy Berkfelt would come out to a rural community, 3 make an effort to be there at a dress rehearsal to take 4 takes of some of the play; be aware of what the play 5 was about and be able to interview us and ask 6 intelligent questions. 7 219 That is really important, because a 8 lot of times you can be patronized. 9 220 Also, whatever the play was about 10 would often be put into context. In other words, if we 11 were doing a play on fisheries, it might be put into 12 the noon show when the fishery crisis -- although it 13 has been going on for a long time, but when it peaked. 14 It would be put into a show on the fisheries. 15 221 When we were taking a play by a Cape 16 Breton playwright to the Fringe Festival, it would be 17 put on a show about Cape Breton playwrights, a talk 18 show inviting people to make commentary. 19 222 Also, more commercial ventures, they 20 would also support us. I could always get an 21 interview. It has been very important to our continued 22 existence and expansion. 23 223 I know this is true for probably all 24 of the rest of the theatre companies in Cape Breton, 25 whatever they are. I like to know what else is going StenoTran 47 1 on in the island, and I get to hear through the CBC. 2 224 I am sure other people will speak 3 about, and have spoken about, how the CBC has helped as 4 far as the Cape Breton music scene. I wonder where the 5 Celtic traditional music revival would be without the 6 CBC, without being able to listen to the music. 7 225 A lot of these are my own personal 8 comments as a listener. 9 226 As far as television goes, I was 10 never a big watcher of television. However, in the 11 last few years I have become much more of a watcher of 12 CBC television, because there now is local programming 13 on CBC. 14 227 Another reason I watch is because I 15 am now seeing for the first time a lot of artists who I 16 know getting work on television through "Black 17 Harbour", "This Hour Has 22 Minutes", and "The Pit 18 Pony". The CBC coverage of where these people have 19 come from, the grassroots theatre and performing 20 organizations where these people have come from, has 21 helped them get to where they are now in their careers, 22 getting national exposure. 23 228 I think there should be more local 24 television programming. I think it will help a lot of 25 writers, who are able to write now for this StenoTran 48 1 programming. 2 229 I think there is less coverage now in 3 a way, and we suffer from that. 4 230 I was moving into the national side 5 of things too, where the rest of the country is now 6 finding out that Maritimers have a lot of stories to 7 tell and that our humour is some of the best, because 8 it comes from a unique perspective. A lot of the best 9 humour and satire comes from places that are 10 economically depressed or oppressed. 11 231 I am also going to talk a bit about 12 where I am from. 13 232 I am originally an American. I grew 14 up during the anti-Vietnam days and as a result was 15 very disenchanted with America and knew that I would be 16 living in a different country in the future. I thought 17 perhaps it would be Scotland or Ireland, but it ended 18 up being Canada and Cape Breton. 19 233 I came originally on the bus and a 20 train to Banff to take a painting course after I got 21 out of university. So I first learned about this 22 country through the arts, through the Group of Seven 23 and their paintings. I continued to learn through the 24 CBC, with support of the arts. The CBC is how I 25 learned about Canada. StenoTran 49 1 234 When I came to Cape Breton, when I 2 was living in a tent, I listened to CBC and learned 3 about Cape Breton on all of the local and regional 4 programming. 5 235 When I first came to Canada I was 6 amazed to find out that the government would allow its 7 national radio to criticize it, lampoon public figures. 8 I couldn't believe this. I might say that I was a 9 rather extreme anti-American and had a lot of romantic 10 notions about Canada, but I felt that you just didn't 11 see that in the U.S. What I was protesting or against 12 was the sameness, the melting pot, the lack of feeling 13 of community. 14 236 I was also amazed that Canada 15 supported and protected its own industry; that before 16 American corporations had moved in and taken over all 17 the cultural industries and all the other industries. 18 Well, we can see where that is headed today. 19 237 I was amazed also and still am -- I 20 don't know if I would say amazed -- at the high calibre 21 of discussion on the radio. I see it as a forum for 22 all sorts of ideas which reflected the intellectual, 23 philosophical, artistic and political life of the 24 country. 25 238 It also reflects the regional StenoTran 50 1 differences and sub-regional differences. 2 239 As a listener, I am finding out what 3 life is like in Saskatchewan or the Northwest 4 Territories, or anywhere in Canada. That is what I am 5 interested in. I am interested in finding out about 6 the country. The fact that we can hear the voices from 7 different places in the country and allow a dialogue is 8 very important. 9 240 I think it is very important, with 10 all this talk about a Canadian identity -- which, to 11 me, is a lot of cliched hype to the Maritimes, because 12 I don't think people in the regions have a real problem 13 with their Canadian identity. They do need their 14 regional identity reinforced, and a lot of this is 15 through the CBC that we can find that. 16 241 There was also a couple of other 17 things. 18 242 When we lost the CBC radio drama 19 there was a director to whom that position was a loss; 20 and to a lot of writers in the Maritimes. 21 243 With the emergence now of all the 22 cultural industries, with movies, with TV, with music 23 being recognized, it is kind of working in reverse in a 24 lot of ways. We now more than ever need more regional 25 programming and need to support our writers and StenoTran 51 1 artists. I think we need more regional programming and 2 less syndicated material, which is the way things are 3 going. 4 244 That's it. Thank you. 5 245 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 6 Ms Brett. 7 246 Mr. Stewart. 8 1415 9 247 MR. STEWART: Thank you. I now would 10 invite Mr. Ernie Curry to make his presentation. 11 248 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Curry. 12 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 13 249 MR. CURRY: Thank you. My 14 presentation is in the form of a critique. I would 15 like to mention that it does not take anything away 16 from the positive aspects that were mentioned here 17 about the CBC. 18 250 My name is Ernie Curry. I am 19 grateful to the CRTC for the opportunity to make this 20 presentation on behalf of the Antigonish Chapter of the 21 Catholic Civil Rights League. 22 251 The league was set up to defend and 23 promote Catholic beliefs in the public forum. This is 24 a formidable task, because there is little sacred in 25 the media's view of the church, leaving Catholics, at StenoTran 52 1 leat in Canada, with a growing sense of alienation from 2 a hostile culture. 3 252 Unfortunately, the publicly funded 4 CBC has played a major role in this alienation. In 5 fact, we have discerned a pattern of anti-Christian and 6 in particular anti-Catholic bias in the CBC, much more 7 so than in the private media. 8 253 Catholics in my town of Antigonish 9 became aware of this bias in 1984, when CBC decided to 10 question some of the church's teachings and chose our 11 town to do it because they considered Antigonish a 12 microcosm of Canadian Catholic culture. 13 254 The occasion was the Pope's visit to 14 Canada. The story was aired on "The Journal" on 15 September 6th of that year, and the purpose of the 16 exercise was explained in this lead-in: 17 "The leader of almost half of 18 Canada's population arrives 19 Sunday to nationwide pomp and 20 celebration. His visit comes at 21 a time when many Catholics are 22 troubled by the rigid moral 23 posture of the church and the 24 unwillingness of this Pope to 25 relent on his deeply held StenoTran 53 1 conservative views." 2 255 To prove that allegation, Linda 3 McIntyre, who produced and narrated the story, came to 4 town and recruited five disaffected Catholics to appear 5 on the show, all of whom testified to the rigid moral 6 posture of the church and doubted that Pope John Paul 7 would change anything. 8 256 McIntyre agreed and concluded that 9 while the church leadership is at pains to point out 10 that it can do more to help people through their 11 difficulties, it is also clear in its message that the 12 church will never abolish the principles from so which 13 many conflicts arise. 14 257 Although members of the clergy were 15 allowed to defend their position, they had no control 16 over the editing of the film, which could be altered to 17 suit the bias of the producer. The town's Catholics 18 were shocked that the government-controlled media would 19 interfere in the internal affairs of the church in this 20 way, but there was noting that they could do about it 21 because at that time the CBC had no ombudsman. 22 258 If the town's Catholics were shocked 23 over that incident, all of its residents, Catholic and 24 non-Catholic alike, were shocked later on when the CBC 25 deliberately and maliciously turned a success story StenoTran 54 1 about the town on its head. 2 259 This happened in 1992 when our mayor 3 announced that the town had accumulated $5 million in 4 reserves, mostly from its profitable electric utility, 5 and recommended a one-year tax break for its citizens. 6 Because this happened at a time when most 7 municipalities were operating in the red, this success 8 story caught the attention of the media. 9 260 For example, Macleans's Magazine ran 10 a feature story about the troubled municipalities and 11 singled out Antigonish as the exception and praised the 12 town for its achievement. CTV played the story 13 straight, giving the facts only. But not the CBC. 14 261 It put its own spin on the story, and 15 in this version, which was aired nationally on "News 16 Magazine" on April 14th, it implied that the town had 17 accumulated its surplus by short-changing its welfare 18 recipients. This portrayed of Antigonishers as a mean 19 and selfish lot. It did this by airing the complaints 20 of several welfare recipients, and at the same time 21 withholding the information about the source of the 22 surplus. 23 262 However, there was no substance to 24 the allegations, because the complainants were not 25 residents of the town; and even if they had lived in StenoTran 55 1 town, there was an appeal process to deal with such 2 complaints. But no such complaints were made. 3 263 This was another case of a 4 corporation preparing the script beforehand and 5 selecting the cast to act it out, even though there was 6 no evidence to support its version of events. 7 264 Several people complained to the CBC 8 about its unethical, if not slanderous, handling of the 9 story, and one in particular filed a complaint with its 10 ombudsman, William Morgan. In his response Morgan said 11 that it was wrong for the CBC to tie in the story about 12 the alleged mistreatment of the town's welfare 13 recipients with that of its surplus, because there was 14 no connection between the two. He also said that it 15 was wrong for the CBC to withhold the information about 16 the source of the surplus. 17 265 However, although he informed all 18 those responsible for the story of his judgment, 19 including the vice-presidents, nothing further was 20 heard from the corporation. It neither apologized to 21 the townspeople, nor set the record straight. 22 266 What the CBC did to the town of 23 Antigonish was unethical and unforgivable. But they 24 got away with it. 25 267 The question now is: Why did the CBC StenoTran 56 1 deliberately distort this news story and expose itself 2 to possible charges of unethical behaviour and even 3 slander? I suspect that it was done because of the 4 Catholic nature of the town and because the corporation 5 knew that its ombudsman had no authority to right any 6 wrong done to an aggrieved party. 7 268 In fact, the ombudsman's office is a 8 sham and only serves as window dressing for the 9 corporation. This was evident to anyone who followed 10 the controversy surrounding the Valour and Horror film 11 about the Second World War. The ombudsman, Mr. Morgan, 12 judged the film to be flawed, but this was followed by 13 more than 1,000 CBC employees, including Linda 14 McIntyre, Peter Mansbridge and Alison Smith, signing a 15 petition calling for an independent review of the 16 ombudsman's work by senior journalists no less. 17 269 Not only that, but the CRTC itself 18 ruled in favour of the film and against the judgment of 19 the ombudsman. So it was that the CRTC effectively 20 destroyed the Office of the Ombudsman and with it the 21 public's only advocate. 22 270 This means that CBC produces and 23 journalists are accountable to no one and are free to 24 act out their biases whenever and however they see fit. 25 The following examples are proof that they have indeed StenoTran 57 1 been granted that immunity. 2 271 The first example has to do with 3 Linda McIntyre's recent grant against the Alberta 4 Report, a weekly news publication reflecting Christian 5 values, the publisher of which, Lynn Bifield, is a 6 Roman Catholic. 7 272 The story was aired on "The Fifth 8 Estate" on October 27, 1998, and McIntyre, making no 9 pretense of objectivity, heaped scorn on the magazine 10 and its owners, the Bifield family, calling them hard 11 line conservative Christians, anti-gay, anti-abortion, 12 anti other things. He said that their magazine has an 13 unapologetic appeal to prairie anxieties and red-neck 14 pride. 15 273 In reference to their Christian 16 faith, he said that they were obsessed with the notion 17 that somewhere under the sun there was real truth, 18 absolute and unambiguous. 19 274 To strengthen his scathing 20 denunciation of the magazine, he added the opinion of 21 like-minded journalist, Rick Salutin, who said that the 22 magazine is nasty and utterly obsessed with sex and 23 represents a kind of crazed right wing all-embracing 24 view of the world. 25 275 The story not only trashed the StenoTran 58 1 magazine, but also the publishers, as well as their 2 religious beliefs. No one, besides the family, 3 appeared on the program to defend the magazine. 4 276 Just as there was no balance in the 5 CBC's handling of the Alberta Report story, the 6 following example will show that the corporation 7 intends to deal with the abortion issue in the same 8 biased way. 9 277 As we all know, abortion is one of 10 the most controversial and divisive issues in the 11 country, yet the CBC has so far only allowed the 12 pro-abortion advocates to tell their side of the story. 13 This they did with a vengeance on January 19, 1999, on 14 News Magazine, and again on February 3rd on its 15 national news program. 16 278 Both of these stories couched the 17 pro-life advocates as the evil ones in the controversy 18 and the pro-abortion advocates as the good and 19 victimized ones. 20 279 The CBC of course completely ignored 21 the real victims of abortion, the millions of unborn 22 babies; about 100,000 in Canada each year. 23 280 The following example might have been 24 a suitable issue on which to produce a story showing 25 the pro-life side, but wouldn't you know, they missed StenoTran 59 1 the opportunity. 2 281 In Arizona last October a doctor was 3 about to perform a partial birth abortion, a procedure 4 used for late term pregnancies when the abortion 5 procedure won't work, changed his mind and instead 6 delivered a healthy 6-pound girl. Even though the baby 7 is going to be adopted, the National Abortion Rights 8 League is planning to have the doctor charged with 9 malpractice. The doctor's sin is that he saved the 10 life of the baby instead of killing it, and for that 11 sin the pro-choice advocates want him punished. 12 282 If this happened in Canada -- and it 13 could have, for all we know -- the Canadian Abortion 14 Rights League would no doubt call for the same penalty. 15 However, except for those actively involved in the 16 abortion movement, Canadians in general know little 17 about this complex issue; and given the CBC's 18 pro-abortion bias, the corporation is not about to 19 enlighten them. 20 283 The Catholic church is, of course, 21 one of the leading players in the pro-life movement, a 22 fact that the CBC constantly points out as it denounces 23 the movement. 24 284 A recent incident suggests to us in 25 the League that the CBC is not only anti-Catholic but StenoTran 60 1 holds the church in contempt as well. We came to that 2 conclusion recently when we wrote to Perrin Beatty to 3 ask him to cancel a planned CBC film that we consider 4 sacrilegious. He rejected our request. 5 285 The film is "Our Daily Bread" and is 6 billed as a drama-comedy. It features a young woman 7 giving holy communion wafers to her pet dog. Our 8 objection is that the film ridicules the most sacred 9 ritual in the Catholic church. In spite of that, the 10 president's office made it clear that he has no 11 intention of cancelling the film. We were informed 12 that it will be shown on CBC TV this fall. 13 286 We ask the question: Would they dare 14 produce a drama-comedy ridiculing Jewish or Moslem 15 rituals? 16 287 It is indefensible that Canada's 13 17 million Catholics must defend themselves against the 18 bias in its own public broadcasting system, the CBC. 19 Not only that, but the CRTC, which licenses the 20 corporation, seems to share that bias, or so it appears 21 when the Commission turned down a request from the U.S. 22 Catholic Network, EWTN, for a licence to broadcast in 23 Canada. 24 288 EWTN is licensed to broadcast in 32 25 countries and is the largest religious TV network in StenoTran 61 1 the world. Regardless, the CRTC ruled against 2 licensing them and on the same occasion licensed the 3 Playboy Channel. 4 289 The reason for rejecting EWTN was 5 that there must be a "balance of diverse points of view 6 on issues of public concern". However, the CRTC seems 7 to exempt the CBC from that policy. We would suggest 8 that applying this policy to a clearly defined 9 religious network might amount to censorship, while 10 indeed it should apply to a publicly funded diverse 11 broadcaster such as the CBC. 12 290 In closing, I would recommend that 13 the CBC should be required to demonstrate a balance of 14 diverse points of view on issues of public concern. 15 The Office of the Ombudsman, or an alternate office, 16 not accountable to the CBC but to the public, be given 17 sufficient authority to make the broadcaster conform to 18 established standards of balance, honesty and ethics 19 that truly serve all of Canada's citizens. 20 291 Thank you. 21 292 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 22 Curry. 23 293 Mr. Stewart. 24 1425 25 294 MR. STEWART: I now invite Ms Helen StenoTran 62 1 MacDonald to make a presentation. 2 PRESENTATION /PRÉSENTATION 3 295 MS MacDONALD: Thank you. Good 4 afternoon, everyone. My name is Helen MacDonald, and I 5 am a faithful listener of CBC radio and TV. 6 296 I am speaking today on behalf of 7 myself and a number of other senior citizens who could 8 not be here but requested that I pass on their concerns 9 to you. 10 297 In the Sydney area we are very 11 fortunate to have the CBC program called "Information 12 Morning" with Ian MacNeil and Yvonne Lebon Smith as 13 hosts. The seniors that I have spoken to are very 14 disturbed and disappointed to have this program, and 15 others which are so interesting and informative, not 16 available to us for weeks. 17 298 In addition, programs coming out of 18 Halifax, such as "Maritime Noon", with Kostas 19 Salibrasos, and "Weekends", with Stan Crew, along with 20 "As it Happens" and "Cross Country Checkup", with Rex 21 Murphy, have been pre-empted and they are greatly 22 missed by all. 23 299 I feel the programs I have mentioned 24 are of great importance to us as seniors. Many of the 25 programs are extremely well received and thoroughly StenoTran 63 1 enjoyed, and I hope my presence here today as a senior 2 and concerned citizen will be some influence with the 3 CRTC to help them better understand our concerns, and 4 hopefully result in these programs and others that have 5 been lost across this country being returned to the 6 airwaves. 7 300 On a personal note, I would like to 8 make one further comment. 9 301 I have a brother who is in his 10 eighties, who is currently living on his own and who 11 has been inflicted with failing eyesight, who virtually 12 spends every waking moment listening to CBC radio. It 13 has been for him, and others like him, their only 14 source of information and commentary of local and world 15 affairs. I only wish that I could take each and every 16 one of you present to visit him and let him tell you 17 personally how sad and lonely he has become since his 18 favourite source of entertainment has been silenced. 19 302 Thank you. 20 303 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I take 21 it, Ms MacDonald, your comments are related to the fact 22 of the current labour difficulties that CBC is having. 23 304 MS MacDONALD: Possibly. But on the 24 other hand, I would like to say that we really love CBC 25 here in Cape Breton. As you have heard the other StenoTran 64 1 speakers say, they are great programmings coming from 2 CBC. Although they have pre-empted other programs to 3 replace those that we are missing, we still miss these 4 programs that we have come to listen to daily and wish 5 they would be back on the air soon. 6 305 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 7 much. 8 306 MS MacDONALD: You are welcome. 9 307 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Stewart. 10 1430 11 308 MR. STEWART: Thank you. 12 309 I now invite Mr. Herman Wills to make 13 his presentation. 14 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 15 310 MR. WILLS: Thank you. 16 311 Thank you, Helen. I have many 17 friends who share the same feelings about CBC in Cape 18 Breton. 19 312 My name is Herman Wills. I am 20 President of Campaign Life Coalition Nova Scotia. I am 21 a member of several pro-family organizations, in 22 addition to Campaign Life. As an organization, we seek 23 protection of the family, the core social unit of our 24 society, and the preservation and protection of all 25 human life. StenoTran 65 1 313 We recognize that the measure of any 2 civilized society is how well it takes care of its 3 weakest members before and after birth until a natural 4 death. I would like to thank the CRTC for allowing 5 members of the public to make presentations in regard 6 to public broadcasting in Canada. 7 314 It is a privilege to present to you 8 some views and observations on the CBC, with some 9 general recommendations. It is my hope that my 10 presentation will embody what has been suggested by the 11 Commission. 12 315 We believe any public broadcaster 13 should reflect the value of its shareholders, namely 14 the public, and not marginalize any one group. The 15 public need to know the truth about family life issues 16 which we believe are marginalized and misrepresented by 17 the CBC. Family values are rarely reflected in the 18 public broadcasting system; at worst, they are 19 ridiculed; and at best, ignored. 20 316 The CBC as Canada's public 21 broadcaster has to excel in accuracy, dependability and 22 trust in order to be welcomed in the majority of 23 Canadian homes. The content should not offend 24 Canadians' core values or their religious affiliations. 25 317 The public broadcaster does an StenoTran 66 1 excellent job at times, especially in the area of 2 documentaries and specialty programs, such as "Quirks 3 and Quarks" with Bob MacDonald, "Ideas" with Listair 4 Sinclair, documentaries such as "Sex Under Siege" and 5 "The Dying Room" are ones that come to mind. 6 318 The CBC is very good at the promotion 7 of Canadian talent, I believe, and home entertainment 8 programs, especially at Christmas and Easter, and that 9 type of thing. 10 319 Other examples that do much to 11 reflect Canada are welcomed into our homes, like "Down 12 the Road Again", and local and regional programming 13 such as "Land and Sea". 14 320 At one time I personally averaged 15 four to six hours a day listening or watching CBC. Now 16 that is limited to special occasions. 17 321 Before moving ahead with my 18 observations, I would like to leave you a quote by 19 Murray Guy, news editor of The Times Transcript of 20 Moncton, who, on February 22nd, summed up my 21 observation about the media and how it can contribute 22 to the public knowledge and debate. The observation 23 should apply even more to a public broadcaster. 24 322 The headline read "What's Implied is 25 as Important as What's Said". The power of the pen, StenoTran 67 1 suggests the oft used phrase, is mightier than the 2 sword. Newspapers and media in general have that power 3 of the pen. We can through our news coverage, photos 4 and editorial opinions contribute to the public debate 5 and effect change by providing our readers with facts 6 about an issue. It is a power that has to be treated 7 with respect. The media has to be very careful about 8 crossing the line between the messenger and being the 9 message. 10 323 The CBC has, in our opinion, 11 functioned as an agent of social change and for the 12 most part has controlled the debate and in a sense has 13 become the message. In the areas that are important to 14 my organization and our supporters, the CBC has 15 misrepresented facts and manipulated materials in 16 recent documentaries and newscasts, which we suspect 17 underlines personal biases of those producing the 18 documentary. Whether it holds true for other 19 documentaries is a concern. 20 324 In a recent showing of "Thou Shall 21 Not Kill" and the shooting of Dr. Slepian, the CBC may 22 have blurred the lines between the message and the 23 messenger. The reason we wish to refer to these 24 documentaries is that any recommendation that we will 25 have to make will have foundation in fact. StenoTran 68 1 325 In the documentary "Thou Shall Not 2 Kill", aired January 19, 1999, the CBC used a radical 3 fringe group from the United States to attempt to 4 depict Canadian pro-lifers in a negative light. The 5 clips were used from library files, edited and taken 6 from storage not related to the subject matter. The 7 video clip view showed a hostile pro-abortion crowd 8 that was present at a pro-life demonstration and then 9 people being carried away. The people being carried 10 away were peaceful Christian pickets who went limp as a 11 form of protest in support of an unborn child. In the 12 rebellious noisy crowd there was a sign that read "keep 13 abortion legal". It was just barely visible. 14 326 It should have been pointed out that 15 these people were not pro-life. It made it appear that 16 those being carried away were being violent or 17 disruptive. 18 327 Another clip of a group of people 19 dressed in black were not the Army of God as implied by 20 the accompanying voice-over. They were pro-lifers 21 dressed as grim reapers, protesting the abortion drug 22 RU486 outside the French embassy. 23 328 With the help of footage of a radical 24 fringe group from the U.S., the CBC managed to paint 25 the Canadian pro-life movement with the same brush. StenoTran 69 1 And nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, 2 one statement by an American radical inferred that 3 Canadian pro-lifers are so peaceful, they are pathetic. 4 329 I should quickly, but of necessity, 5 point out that there is a world of difference between 6 being anti-abortion and being pro-life. The former 7 refers to a person interested in only one of the two 8 people who enter the abortion centre, the unborn. The 9 latter term refers to a person who is interested in two 10 people who enter the abortion centre: the mother and 11 the unborn child. The difference is just not 12 semantics. It is an important difference between two 13 ways of looking at the same situation. 14 330 I suspect the CBC lacks any in-depth 15 knowledge of the pro-life movement in Canada after 16 viewing these documentaries, nor do they seem 17 interested. 18 331 It seems that there is a 19 pro-choice/pro-abortion mindset which runs through the 20 media, as has been pointed out by several polls on 21 attitudes of the media that surface from time to time. 22 The CBC should have shown the truth instead of their 23 bias. Ironically, the program was about a "show the 24 truth" campaign put on by Canadian pro-life activists. 25 332 Pro-life people know that violence is StenoTran 70 1 not the answer and that each and every human life is to 2 be respected. One would have to ask: Does the media 3 by its presentation on this issue incite violence? 4 333 It is obvious that the CBC was after 5 a story that does not exist and had to make linkages. 6 Although it was definitely peaceful, it was depicted as 7 being violent, which is false. 8 334 In an earlier newscast in October 9 dealing with the shooting death of Dr. Bernard Slepian, 10 we see the camera focused on a crowd protesting outside 11 the Campaign Life Coalition Headquarters, and a 12 voice-over says: "Some members of Campaign Life 13 Coalition say while their organization does not support 14 the shootings, they can understand that abortion can 15 push people to extremes." 16 335 Then the camera switches to Jim 17 Hughes and he says: "They have become very angry and 18 they have no place to turn. I can see where they would 19 decide to take it out on some abortionist." 20 336 The inference is clear: that Campaign 21 Life Coalition and Canadian pro-lifers sympathize with 22 killings. Lost in the shuffle, deliberately or 23 otherwise, is the statement made by Mr. Hughes that 24 Campaign Life Coalition does not support violence of 25 any kind towards abortionists that was part of the StenoTran 71 1 original clip aired at 4 p.m. and at 5 p.m., which 2 contained the complete statement. 3 337 The 6 p.m. and the 7 p.m. clips, the 4 same day, were edited to make it appear that the 5 Canadian pro-lifers sympathized with the killings. 6 338 This is certainly not so, not of any 7 pro-life organization that we know of in Canada. 8 339 In contrast to these clips, nothing 9 has ever been reported about pro-lifers under police 10 protection, nor the attacks made on pro-lifers or 11 pro-lifers who receive threats, such as Paul Neilson 12 from British Columbia, who had his house smoke-bombed. 13 340 It would surprise you to find out 14 about the honesty and integrity of these people after 15 viewing these misrepresenting documentaries. In order 16 for the CBC to fulfil its mandate to serve the public, 17 I believe that they would have to rewrite their style 18 book so that their programs are as fair to the pro-life 19 and pro-life people as they are presently friendly to 20 pro-choice people. 21 341 Recommendation no. 1, which is 22 general, is that the CBC should act responsibly and 23 show the pro-life side, or the other side, of an 24 argument. For example, they could have a documentary 25 on why Linda Gibbons is in jail for life for six-month StenoTran 72 1 instalments for the past five or more years, for 2 walking up and down in front of an abortion centre 3 silently praying with a sandwich sign on her shoulder, 4 asking any pregnant and distressed woman entering the 5 abortion centre if she can help them. 6 342 Why do these people without financial 7 support dedicate their lives to helping others? Why do 8 they give up careers? Why do they slave long hours to 9 come to the aid of women in distress? Why? 10 343 This story would have done much to 11 give balance to the newscast and to illustrate the 12 differences between anti-abortion and pro-life. 13 344 I would suggest on a controversial 14 issue that a documentary be done that illustrates the 15 other side of the question or debate. At least balance 16 could be achieved in a more positive manner. 17 345 As a case in point, earlier this 18 year, on the CBS network "60 Minutes" did a program on 19 the infamous Dr. Kavorkian presented at a 20 physician-assisted suicide with much public outcry. A 21 follow-up positive story was aired two weeks ago. I am 22 not sure if it was to counterbalance the first impact 23 or to vindicate the journalist involved. 24 346 By airing the follow-up story, CBS 25 acknowledged that there is another side to the issue StenoTran 73 1 and therefore it is important to give as much attention 2 and fervour to this side. It may mean questioning the 3 source and advice of researchers who work for the CBC. 4 347 The second recommendation: I cannot 5 ever remember the public broadcaster coming to our 6 organization, Campaign Life Coalition, to do a 7 non-hostile interview or to look deeply into why people 8 care so much about the family and the sanctity of life. 9 348 Only once can I remember an interview 10 on "Morningside" with Peter Gzowski and two pro-life 11 people that was not hostile or demeaning. A mechanism 12 must be found to keep the public broadcaster just that: 13 a public broadcaster with a mandate for fairness, 14 accuracy, trust and a service to most, if not all, 15 Canadians of Canada into the millennium. 16 349 The public deserves a level playing 17 field, for television as one of the most powerful and 18 agenda-setting mediums that exist today. It is how 19 most people receive their information to form opinions. 20 350 Here is the quote: "Democracy is 21 preserved and protected by a free press but is ill 22 served by a manipulative and bias media uncontrolled 23 and uncontrollable", as stated by Tom Lapelle, an 24 Ontario MP. 25 351 The CBC should have its mandate StenoTran 74 1 extended if they can be more open to serving all public 2 groups and shareholders and not just those whom they 3 seem to support. If they are unable to be fair, then 4 the CRTC should mandate conditions for licensing that 5 promotes fair treatment of controversial and social 6 issues. The CRTC should also consider a shorter 7 licence period, so its reviews will be more often. 8 352 I thank you for allowing me to 9 present my views to you today. 10 353 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 11 much, Mr. Wills. 12 354 Mr. Stewart. 13 1440 14 355 MR. STEWART: I now call upon Ms Ann 15 Verrill to make her presentation. 16 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 17 356 MS VERRILL: My name is Ann Verrill. 18 I am the owner of Flashfire Productions, which is an 19 independent film and video production company in 20 Halifax. I also am the producer of a program called 21 "Shortworks". 22 357 I am here partially on my own behalf 23 but also to represent some of the organizations which 24 are now housed in the radio building of the CBC in 25 Halifax. They are the Atlantic Film Makers StenoTran 75 1 Cooperative, the Atlantic Film Festival, the Centre for 2 Art Tapes, Linda Joy Media Arts Society, Moving Images 3 Group, and the Shortworks Program. 4 358 There is a new partnership which has 5 developed over the last few years with CBC Maritimes 6 and the cultural community in Halifax. The six 7 organizations which are now housed there are all 8 working together within the facility and working with 9 the CBC. 10 359 The Film Coop has been around for 25 11 years. It has production facilities, membership, 12 workshops and scholarships, and has about 800 people 13 that use its facilities. 14 360 The Film Festival has been in the 15 building for four years. The Centre for Art Tapes also 16 has membership production facilities, workshops and 17 scholarships. The number of people that they interact 18 with is also about 800. 19 361 The Linda Joy Media Arts Society 20 gives out awards to emerging film and video producers 21 and directors from the Atlantic Provinces, and they are 22 now in the process of setting up a resource centre. 23 362 The Moving Images Group began about 24 two and a half years ago, and they do a professional 25 development program for film and television. They have StenoTran 76 1 had about 700 people who have taken part in their 2 workshops. 3 363 Shortworks is a four-month long 4 training program for film and video production, and we 5 have had about 300 people go through our program. 6 364 The significance of all this is that 7 all of those people are coming into the CBC building on 8 Sackville Street in Halifax, which marks a significant 9 change in the relationship that the CBC has with the 10 community there. 11 365 I would like to talk a little bit 12 about the Shortworks program. It is a unique kind of 13 partnership which has evolved from the Centre for Art 14 Tapes, the Atlantic Film Makers Cooperative, Flashfire 15 Productions, which is a private company, and the CBC 16 Maritimes. 17 366 The program is linked to the 18 production of four or five-minute films and videos 19 produced through the Film Coop and the Centre for Art 20 Tapes. It provides workshops in various aspects of 21 production and a professional development stream for 22 the writers, directors and producers of the five-minute 23 pieces. It also provides on-set training for the 24 workshop participants. 25 367 The thing that is so important about StenoTran 77 1 this program is that it brings together a broadcaster 2 and emerging talent in a low risk, low pressure 3 situation. The results have been quite impressive. 4 368 The CBC is directly involved in the 5 training of the people that go through the program, and 6 they have also purchased for broadcast some of the 7 pieces that have been made through the program. 8 369 The objective of the program is to 9 allow both parties to learn from each other. 10 370 In this region there has been a 11 long-standing issue of how to develop our own talent 12 and to keep it here, and how to train our own community 13 and workforce for the growing film and video and 14 television industry. 15 371 In the absence of a film school, 16 grassroots organizations have taken on the 17 responsibility of developing their particular part of 18 the community. 19 372 There has also been a movement within 20 the community to join forces to address the lack of 21 training available here. This community, which 22 consists of the unions and guilds, IATSE and ACTRA, the 23 DGC, the Independent Film Caucus, the Writers Guild, 24 the Writers Federation, the Centre for Art Tapes and 25 the Atlantic Film Makers Cooperative, have all been StenoTran 78 1 meeting for several years now to try to address what 2 can be done to facilitate training. 3 373 They formed the Moving Images Group 4 which now puts on a professional development program. 5 374 Two years ago the group was formed 6 and the program was about to be launched, but there was 7 nowhere to hold it. It was at that time that the link 8 was made with the CBC. 9 375 I was the director of the program at 10 the time and actually initially approached the CBC to 11 get some manuals for a sound workshop. When they heard 12 about the program, they actually approached us about 13 wanting to be more involved and offered us space in the 14 building, as well as other kinds of support. 15 376 At this point in time began the 16 process of bringing in the independent film and video 17 community into the building. A year later Flashfire 18 Productions and the Coop and the Centre and the CBC 19 began the Shortworks program. 20 377 In the fall, the Atlantic Film Makers 21 Coop moved into the building, and in January the Centre 22 for Art Tapes moved in. 23 378 The Linda Joy Media Arts Society was 24 also given office space and a location to hold a 25 resource centre. StenoTran 79 1 379 In the month that we all spent 2 together in the building, we realized that we were 3 standing on the threshold of great possibilities. We 4 had been working separately and could feel the 5 isolation, defensiveness and competitiveness that comes 6 from working that way. We were unaware of the issues 7 and struggles that the others were experiencing. Now, 8 together, we are breaking down the barriers and are 9 finding new ways to collaborate. 10 380 We are focusing our energy on 11 building a stronger support system for our entire 12 community. The thing that has pulled us all together 13 has been the CBC, and they are partners with us in 14 building a cultural fabric. 15 381 In order for this to happen, it took 16 people with the resources having a vision and a way to 17 connect with us. 18 382 This experience of our community can 19 be seen as an analogy to the CBC as a whole. Each 20 organization is like the regions; each allowed to 21 develop and connect with its members in the ways which 22 make sense for that community. Organizations and 23 regions are brought together in a framework which 24 enables them to reach their potential and therefore 25 strengthen the centre, the CBC. StenoTran 80 1 383 If you think of the image of a tree 2 and that we are all the nutrients in a sense, and the 3 regions are the roots which feed the centre, and the 4 tree becomes stronger and grows taller and the branches 5 spread out further across the country, I think this is 6 the thing that works in nature and it is the thing that 7 will strengthen the CBC as well. 8 384 The one sure way to kill the tree is 9 to sever it from its roots. 10 385 The other thing I would like to 11 address is the issue of private versus public. 12 386 On CBC radio a little while ago 13 someone had called in on the "Talkback Line" in 14 response to the strike, and they basically were saying 15 that they should leave it to the private sector because 16 they are doing such a good job. 17 387 I have a belief that creativity is 18 the foundation on which the television and film 19 industry is built, and that in this ever changing world 20 where market forces are driving the industry, it is 21 even more important for strong, creative and 22 imaginative people to be involved to ensure that the 23 substance and content are not diminished. 24 388 As an example, I worked for a long 25 time with the Centre for Art Tapes, which is a StenoTran 81 1 non-profit media organization. We often had complaints 2 from the commercial industry about unfair competition. 3 389 The mandate of the Centre for Art 4 Tapes is to enable individuals to develop their 5 creative potential without restrictions and to 6 strengthen the artistic vision of the individual. Many 7 of the people who worked out of the Centre for Art 8 Tapes, as well as the Film Makers Coop, have gone on to 9 work in and for the private industry. They have 10 created new programs to address the needs of the 11 industry, and they provide the talent which feeds both 12 private and public broadcasters. 13 390 The grassroots artistic community 14 also helps to inspire the creative people working in 15 the private broadcasting. 16 391 If places like the Centre for Art 17 Tapes and the Atlantic Film Makers Coop did not exist, 18 which means that they would not be getting federal 19 funding, the work that gets made there would not just 20 move to the commercial facilities; it would not be 21 made. 22 392 The expense and the structure of 23 working in commercial facilities is detrimental to the 24 creative process, since it is driven by immediate 25 economic needs. The CBC should, and does in part, play StenoTran 82 1 a similar role. It definitely plays this kind of role 2 here. It enables work to be done which may not be made 3 otherwise. It provides opportunities for the 4 development of a pool of talent which feeds not only 5 the CBC, but the film industry and private 6 broadcasters. 7 393 Private broadcasters need the CBC, 8 because CBC can provide what is needed for the entire 9 community and industry to grow. 10 394 The CBC also sets a standard, which 11 is based on higher ideals than economics. 12 395 Just as a personal experience, I am 13 presently working on a short film, which is my own 14 project and has Canada Council funding. Therefore, 15 creative control is of prime importance, not just 16 because of the funding requirements but also for 17 myself. 18 396 One of the things that is happening 19 now is that in order for a director to become approved 20 to go on, they have to direct what is called a TV half 21 hour. There are several projects that have been done 22 this way with other broadcasters, where there is an 23 awful lot of money. Again, it is not just the 24 broadcaster's money, but it is also other government 25 sources of funding that make these things possible. StenoTran 83 1 397 A lot of pressure is put on to 2 emerging directors to work in the TV model with the 3 broadcaster having enormous control over the process. 4 As a result, often the pieces that are created are not 5 very strong, and the experience of the individuals 6 involved is not very positive. 7 398 For myself, I knew that I was not 8 going to make a piece that way. I had no interest in 9 interacting with the broadcaster in that way, and I 10 also did not want to give up any creative control on my 11 project. It never occurred to me that there would ever 12 be a broadcaster that would even consider my project 13 until my experience with CBC Maritimes. 14 399 It is through their support that I am 15 now able to make that piece. That is an example of a 16 piece that definitely would not be produced if it was 17 not for the CBC; and it is also not a piece that would 18 have been taken up by one of the other broadcasters. 19 400 The other thing that the CBC does is 20 it gives out an award through the Linda Joy Media Arts 21 Society for script development. The importance of that 22 kind of support allows the emerging writer to develop 23 an association with the broadcaster but not be 24 dominated by it. The objective is to develop the 25 writer and develop the script to its potential first StenoTran 84 1 before inflicting the broadcast system on it. 2 401 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, Ms Verrill, 3 you have used 13 minutes of the ten minutes allotted. 4 402 MS VERRILL: Do you want me to stop? 5 403 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could you summarize 6 the rest of your position in about 30 seconds or so? 7 404 MS VERRILL: Yes, I can. 8 405 The last thing that I wanted to say 9 is that the directions of CBC Maritimes show long-term 10 vision. It recognizes the importance of developing 11 regional talent in the region as a way to strengthen a 12 strong national CBC. Its roots have spread into our 13 cultural community, providing a stronger foundation, 14 and it has done what the Broadcast Act asks of all 15 broadcasters, which is to safeguard, strengthen and 16 enrich the cultural, political, social and economic 17 fabric of Canada. 18 406 CBC Maritimes has done this in a way 19 that only they can. 20 407 That's all. 21 408 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 22 much. 23 409 It occurs to me that with continued 24 budget cuts, you could end up with lots of office space 25 but no place to air your productions. StenoTran 85 1 410 Mr. Stewart. 2 1455 3 411 MR. STEWART: Thank you. I now call 4 upon Mr. Douglas Arthur Brown to make his presentation. 5 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 6 412 MR. BROWN: Thank you. I am going to 7 be reading two short presentations. The first is on 8 behalf of Arts Cape Breton in my capacity as its 9 Executive Director; and the second will be on behalf of 10 the Nova Scotia Arts Council in my capacity as its Vice 11 Chair. 12 413 First, Arts Cape Breton. 13 414 In a span of little more than three 14 weeks, mid February to the beginning of March, Cape 15 Breton arts, entertainment and culture commanded the 16 CBC airwaves. From the exciting debut of Cochrane 17 Entertainment's "The Pit Pony" to the "East Coast Music 18 Awards" -- Cape Breton artists winning the lion's share 19 of them -- to the comic antics of "The Bette Macdonald 20 Show", it was an exciting sweep. 21 415 All three of these quality 22 productions displayed the artistic capabilities of Cape 23 Breton Island in enriching and enlightening hues and 24 rythyms. How refreshing to see blue skies and sunlit 25 sets light up "The Pit Pony" across Canada rather than StenoTran 86 1 the all too often acid rain in which too much of the 2 Canadian media prefers to drench its coverage of Cape 3 Breton. 4 416 Thank you, CBC, for that. 5 417 In the brief accompanying suggestions 6 on these public consultations, there were several 7 suggested questions to spark discussion. One of these 8 questions was worded as follows: 9 "Should the programming provided 10 by CBC radio and television be 11 different from that provided by 12 other broadcasters?" 13 418 If there was ever a leading question, 14 this was it. 15 419 When one looks or listens to the 16 majority of private television programming broadcast in 17 this country, it is painfully difficult to find 18 anything different. Although it is not the role of CBC 19 television to compete with private broadcasters, it 20 should be different. For starters, more Canadian 21 content. 22 420 While living in Scandinavia for ten 23 years, I had the pleasure of regularly viewing fine CBC 24 television programs and films bought and broadcast by 25 Scandinavian networks. Clearly the export of Canadian StenoTran 87 1 television programming is a viable market. 2 421 Providing more quality Canadian 3 programming on CBC television not only opens up more 4 opportunities for Canadian writers, actors, producers 5 and others in the industry, but allows for increased 6 export possibilities. 7 422 So the short answer would be yes, CBC 8 should be different because that in itself is a 9 departure from the largely mundane programming 10 available to viewers and listeners in the 500 channel 11 universe. 12 423 Do we really need another station 13 broadcasting "I Dream of Jeannie" or a radio station 14 playing more oldies? No. 15 424 Much of what I have said refers to 16 national CBC television coverage of Cape Breton arts 17 and culture. On a regional level, specifically on CBC 18 radio, Cape Bretoners are fortunate, in these times of 19 diminishing Canadian content, to not only hear what is 20 happening in the arts on Cape Breton but to experience 21 it as well. 22 425 CBC "Mainstreet" in Cape Breton has a 23 fine tradition of broadcasting Cape Breton book and CD 24 launches, which make you want to jump everything and 25 jump in the car and head to the event. The impact of StenoTran 88 1 these live coverages is substantial. For weeks and 2 months after they are aired you will run into people 3 who will stop you on the street and say: "I heard you 4 on CBC." They don't say "on the radio"; it is always 5 "on the CBC". 6 426 Programming like "Information 7 Morning", "Island Echoes" and "Mainstreet" are vital to 8 a region like Cape Breton, an island comprised of many 9 rural communities and cultures -- a community of 10 communities that has traditionally turned to its local 11 radio for linkage. This is a role and responsibility 12 for CBC radio. 13 427 CBC does not play favourites. They 14 are most accommodating and broad in their coverage of 15 arts, entertainment and culture. From the emerging to 16 the established, there is a place for all Cape Breton 17 artists on the CBC. 18 428 As important, there is also room for 19 a response from the consumers of Cape Breton arts, 20 entertainment and culture. Most CBC radio programming 21 asks a vital question of its listeners: "What do you 22 think?" 23 429 That is not to say that there is not 24 room for improvement. Cutbacks to CBC staffing locally 25 has increased the workloads of local broadcasters and StenoTran 89 1 producers to the breaking point. Why this abuse of a 2 dedicated staff who gives 100 per cent and then some, 3 burdening them with additional responsibilities that 4 are unfair and unreasonable? To slaughter the prize 5 egg-laying hen for her meat is short sighted. 6 430 Why is this irony lost to the brass 7 of CBC? 8 431 On programming that originates 9 locally, we want to hear about and respond to our local 10 arts and culture. Is there room for more coverage of 11 arts and culture in Cape Breton? Without a doubt. 12 432 Lately, the cultural sector in Nova 13 Scotia has out-paced all other segments of the 14 provincial economy. The key to this discussion is 15 listening. CBC should always strive to provide 16 programming that entices the viewer or listener to do 17 just that: listen. 18 433 And yes, more Canadian programming. 19 I have already stated that CBC partners well with its 20 local communities here on Cape Breton. There is still 21 room for more opportunity for joint ventures between 22 local artists, arts organizations and the CBC -- joint 23 venturing that should happen here on the island. 24 434 Corporate CBC must not dictate a 25 formula programming to its constituents. It must StenoTran 90 1 receive its inspiration for quality and intriguing 2 programming from where it happens: locally. 3 435 It, too, must listen. 4 436 In closing, regarding television: 5 more Canadian content; and regional programming with an 6 original voice, like "This Hour Has 22 7 Minutes" --regionally distinctive while appealing to a 8 national Canadian audience. 9 437 As to radio, a commitment to maintain 10 excellent local programs like "Mainstreet" and 11 "Information Morning" produced and broadcast in Cape 12 Breton. 13 438 That is from Arts Cape Breton. 14 439 The other presentation -- and I will 15 keep it brief -- is from the Nova Scotia Arts Council. 16 440 The Nova Scotia Arts Council is 17 making this presentation because of the vital role that 18 the CBC plays in the presentation of Nova Scotia 19 artists to other Nova Scotians and other Canadians. 20 Writers, musicians, actors and now visual craft and 21 performance artists are all benefiting from their 22 relationship with the regional CBC. 23 441 This is not just about jobs and fees. 24 This is about the CBC Maritimes' ability and desire to 25 find and promote emerging and developing Nova Scotian StenoTran 91 1 and Maritime Region artists. 2 442 We are fortunate to have two 3 exceptional regional directors of radio and television 4 in Susan Mitton and Fred Mattocks, respectively. They 5 understand that artists' work frequently reflect the 6 community they live in and that by presenting these 7 artists in the best possible light, the CBC is fuelling 8 and strengthening everyone's sense of community. 9 443 CBC radio has frequently been the 10 first recorder of many Nova Scotian musicians, giving 11 them their first professional rate studio experience, 12 and in some cases resulting in their first CDs. 13 444 Studio H in Halifax has fostered the 14 careers of such artists as Rita MacNeil, Laura Smith 15 and the Rankins. 16 445 CBC TV has found a way to bring the 17 work and the faces of Atlantic Region visual, craft and 18 performance artists into thousands of homes with its 19 innovative art spots; 30-second spots that are 20 broadcast in unsold commercial time. 21 446 When downsizing created open office 22 space in the CBC radio building on Sackville Street in 23 Halifax, Susan Mitton offered virtually free space to a 24 number of not for profit arts organizations, such as 25 the Centre for Art Tapes, the Atlantic Film Coop, St. StenoTran 92 1 Cecil Concert Series and the Atlantic Film Festival, 2 making something good out of something bad. 3 447 These are just some examples of the 4 creative impact that the CBC makes here. 5 448 It is easy to forget when you live in 6 urban centres such as Toronto, or Vancouver, or even 7 Ottawa, what the CBC can mean to parts of Canada such 8 as the Atlantic Region, where CBC radio can lead in the 9 ratings. It leads because it is strongly connected to 10 the community. It helps foster community identity with 11 its information programming and its presentation of 12 indigenous music and drama. 13 449 It is probably apparent to the CRTC 14 that there is much support for CBC radio across the 15 country and particularly outside of urban centres. 16 What is of note in the Atlantic Region is the 17 considerable effort made by CBC television to establish 18 a similar rapport with the community. 19 450 Under Fred Mattocks' leadership CBHT 20 Halifax was selected by the prestigious Gabriel Awards 21 as the station of the year for a body of programming 22 reflective of its community. The arts community's 23 experience with art spots is the latest example of TV 24 and the arts partnering to everyone's advantage. 25 451 This is a strong message of support StenoTran 93 1 for the CBC, but in particular for our regional CBC, 2 which we believe truly meets the CBC mandate and stands 3 as a model for the network. 4 452 Thank you. 5 453 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 6 Brown. 7 1500 8 454 MR. STEWART: I will now call on Mr. 9 Rene Halden to make his presentation. 10 455 Is Mr. Halden in the room? There was 11 some suggestion that he might not be able to make it. 12 456 Then, Mr. Frank Gaudet. 13 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 14 457 MR. GAUDET: I am going to basically 15 pass rather than expound on what the other presenters 16 here have so eloquently presented, and which I am 17 mostly in agreement with. 18 458 I have a few questions anyway. I 19 don't know whether it is the time to bring them up or 20 not. Or I will bring them up later. 21 459 I will pass on my presentation. It 22 has basically been covered, especially by Mr. Bates and 23 Ms Cusack and Frank Corbett before me. 24 460 Thank you very much. 25 1505 StenoTran 94 1 461 MR. STEWART: Thank you. 2 462 I will now call upon Mr. Van der 3 Putten to make his presentation. 4 463 Is it Ms Van der Putten? Is that 5 person in the room? I apologize if I have 6 mispronounced the name. 7 464 Then, Mr. Ray MacKay, if he would 8 like to make his presentation now. 9 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 10 465 MR. MacKAY: Mr. Bates mentioned 11 being intimidated when he followed Parker Donham. 12 Imagine how intimidated I am, with all these learned 13 people around the table. This is beyond my nap period, 14 too. I usually have a nap about this time of the day. 15 466 I had my notes together in the 16 computer this morning around 11:30, and I proceeded to 17 get them on to the printer. The first page printed out 18 well; the second page printed out garbage. I couldn't 19 make out a thing on it. So I closed the whole system 20 down, brought it back to life again, and sure enough it 21 worked. So I wasn't in a panic for too long. 22 467 There has been a lot said and written 23 in the last few days and weeks about the CBC, so I 24 don't wish to belabour points already brought up. 25 Local programming is a must if we are to satisfy the StenoTran 95 1 needs of the Cape Breton population and also have an 2 input to the region and nation. 3 468 I wold like to dwell on the radio 4 aspects of broadcasting, if I may. 5 469 During World War Two, when I served 6 with the Royal Canadian Navy, it was comforting to hear 7 the voice of the Maritimes and know that all was well 8 on the home front when we experienced some pretty rough 9 times at sea. We had two networks to service in those 10 days, the Dominion Network, which was operated by CJCB, 11 and the Trans-Canada Network. Then Halifax CBH came on 12 stream, followed by CBI here in Cape Breton in 1949. 13 That was the icing on the cake. 14 470 For 50 years, the CBC has made its 15 presence felt here in Cape Breton. 16 471 I would like to relate to you a 17 little incident after the war. I had signed on a deep 18 sea vessel operating out of Battery Place, New York, as 19 a radio operator/purser. We were taking general cargo 20 from Baltimore to Ireland. While sitting off the coast 21 of Nova Scotia, the second engineer, who was a 22 Scotsman, was passing the time of day with me in the 23 radio room. I had turned on CBA Maritimes, which had a 24 strong signal, and we heard the skirling of the pipes. 25 "I didna think I was so close to Scotland", he says. I StenoTran 96 1 said: "You're not. We are off the coast of Nova 2 Scotia." 3 472 This was the opening of the Gallic 4 Mod at St. Anne's, Cape Breton. 5 473 Why I relate this tale is just to 6 point out one instance of the presence of CBC in an 7 area that normally would not be heard from; one of the 8 very good reasons the CBC should remain an influence in 9 promoting our culture. 10 474 Speaking of ships, there are some 30 11 world-class passenger liners coming into Sydney area 12 each year. By and large, the passengers listen to the 13 CBC. What a tremendous audience. What an opportunity 14 to promote our distinctive culture. 15 475 Those driving in their cars to and 16 from work, cab drivers are listeners to CBC. The 17 alternative listening is so crowded with commercial 18 content back to back that their jangled nerves can't 19 take it any more. 20 476 And another thing: Where are the 21 Cape Breton artists getting air time? Not on the 22 commercial outlets, especially if they are not on the 23 charts. 24 477 I joined the CBC as a radio 25 technician in June 1950 and had remained with the StenoTran 97 1 corporation in various capacities until my retirement 2 in 1983. So I can speak from first-hand experience of 3 some of the things that I feel should be maintained or 4 have been lost and should be brought back. 5 478 I realize that my time is limited to 6 ten minutes. 7 479 I feel that if the CBC does not do 8 it, in many instances it will not be done. 9 480 I feel very strongly that CBC locally 10 should get back into producing quality programs. We 11 have in the past and we could do so again. Many 12 musical artists got their start here and have gone to 13 bigger and better things. 14 481 CBC should be promoting local talent, 15 and they do actually promote local talent. If this is 16 left to the private sector, I am very much afraid that 17 it will not be done. It costs a lot of money to 18 produce a tape or a CD these days, and many would-be 19 artists just do not have the means. 20 482 Some of the talented people who went 21 through CBI Sydney: Anna Lee Silver, Martha McVicker, 22 Marjorie Coombs McGibbon Ball, Winnie Chathe, John Alan 23 Cameron, Lydia Adams, Stuart Calvert, James Macdonald, 24 just to name a few. 25 483 I am going back to the old days. A StenoTran 98 1 lot newer talent has come through since I worked there. 2 I have been retired for 16 years. 3 484 A large number of these musical 4 groups were produced and promoted by Brian Sutcliffe. 5 Dave Ross in earlier times was instrumental in 6 producing Mendelsohns oratorio Elija for the CBC, 7 originating from Sydney. We had a weekly program 8 entitled "CBI Presents", highlighting talent from the 9 local area. 10 485 Way back in early fifties, before the 11 days of tape recording, everything had to be live to 12 air. Barry MacDonald, our local station manager, 13 produced a program entitled "The Breton Singers", which 14 went directly to the network. That was produced by 15 Ewen Clark. This was done on a weekly basis, no mean 16 feat to pull off for a small station of 11 personnel 17 total. And that wasn't just technical people; that was 18 all, the office as well as announcers and technical. 19 486 We also covered the Royal visit in 20 1951. This was broadcast live coast to coast, and more 21 recently we did a New Year's Eve celebration from one 22 of the hotels coast to coast. 23 487 You are probably thinking that is 24 ancient history. That is true, but I believe we have 25 to know where we are coming from so that we may plan StenoTran 99 1 ahead in a constructive way. 2 488 I strongly believe that programs 3 which were produced at CBC locally, such as "Hospital 4 Party", "High News", "Choral Groups", "Island Echoes", 5 weekly church broadcasts, and the like, would not have 6 been touched by the private broadcaster, because it was 7 not profitable for them to do so. 8 489 The hour-long program "Island 9 Echoes", which has a very strong Cape Breton Scottish 10 flavour, has been broadcast weekly for some 30 years, 11 and continues to be broadcast to this time. 12 490 We are all aware that the CBC is in 13 dire financial straits. Why? Well, one of the more 14 obvious reasons is the severe cut in government 15 funding, to the tune of $425 million. 16 491 I understand from an item by Chris 17 Cobb, correspondent with Southam News, that the 18 President of the CBC, Perrin Beatty, is going after the 19 government for an estimated amount of $100 million to 20 pay for digital TV and radio equipment updating in 21 order to improve the transmission of programs. 22 492 You know, there could be no end to 23 this updating business. Technology, especially digital 24 technology, is a constantly changing thing. Should CBC 25 get their hands on this kind of money, I personally StenoTran 100 1 think it could be put to better use by spreading it 2 around to the regions and allowing for greater program 3 input. 4 493 I would like to make one more point, 5 if I may. 6 494 So many of us are addicted to the 7 tube that we sometimes forget all the good programs 8 that are available on CBC radio. Could it be possible 9 that a TV channel be made available nationally and 10 audio transmission? If this was practical, could a 11 program guide be coming on upcoming programs, together 12 with description of same be made available? 13 495 That is like CJCB has on our local 14 Channel 10, with the program audio content there and 15 maybe a read-out and all these programs that are on the 16 CBC FM and radio -- if they could be included there 17 from time to time so that people who are -- as some of 18 us are -- addicted to the boob tube -- 19 496 It is much easier to switch over to 20 an existing channel or going to the radio or forgetting 21 all about the radio. 22 497 I am rambling on, but before I finish 23 I want to make a heartfelt plea for our existing two 24 daily local programs, "Information Morning" and the 25 afternoon show "Mainstreet". These are two programs StenoTran 101 1 that we just cannot get along without. They are 2 tremendously popular and informative. 3 498 "Information Morning", hosted by Ian 4 MacNeil, keeping us up to date on what is going on in 5 the community. Ian also has contributors from all over 6 Cape Breton Island on a regular basis. The program 7 also provides us with an outlet to phone in our 8 complaints or comments and observations. 9 499 Finally, I would like to thank the 10 Commissioners for their time and consideration. It is 11 hoped that these hearings will result in something very 12 positive and that the CBC will continue to be the 13 cohesive force binding us together as Canadians from 14 sea to shining sea. 15 500 Thank you. 16 501 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 17 MacKay. You don't have to take a back seat to anybody 18 in terms of your eloquent support of the CBC. 19 502 Mr. Stewart. 20 1515 21 503 MR. STEWART: Thank you. 22 504 I now invite Mr. Phil MacDonald to 23 make his presentation. 24 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 25 505 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, you Mr. StenoTran 102 1 Chair. I would like to say hello to you and your 2 colleague and welcome yourself and your staff here, and 3 to thank you for coming to Cape Breton Island and to 4 Sydney. 5 506 My name is Phil MacDonald. I am the 6 Director of the Strait-Highlands Regional Development 7 Agency. We are a community economic development group 8 that services the municipalities of the counties of 9 Inverness, Richmond, Victoria and the town of Port 10 Hawkesbury. I think this area could commonly be 11 referred to as "rural Cape Breton" -- not exclusively 12 all of rural Cape Breton; but I will get into that in a 13 little bit. 14 507 I am basically here with one message: 15 that CBC radio is a critical component to community 16 development in rural Cape Breton. I can't put it any 17 more eloquently than a number of people did around this 18 table in terms of the importance to them as individuals 19 and to their organizations, and I believe to their 20 communities as well. This would be in a social, 21 cultural and economic sense. 22 508 My request to the CRTC today is that 23 the CBC Sydney radio station signal be broadcast around 24 the island completely. 25 509 For instance, this morning I left my StenoTran 103 1 office -- it is located almost 100 miles from here. In 2 the particular situation we are in now, we are all 3 listening to Halifax stations. Normally, I would not 4 pick up the Sydney signal until about 30 or 40 miles 5 from Sydney. 6 510 I would like to go into a bit of 7 description. Rural Cape Breton is about three-quarters 8 or more of the island. It probably has a population of 9 about 60,000, which is approximately a little less than 10 one-third of the island's population of 162,000. There 11 are many communities in that area. 12 511 Inverness County is going through a 13 strategic planning process right now, and they have 14 identified 16 communities alone; separate, distinct 15 areas of interest, if you want to call it. It is 16 largely dependent, as many rural communities are, on 17 natural resource-based economy, on farming, fishing, 18 forestry and mining. We have significant tourism 19 attractions and infrastructure, as I am sure you are 20 aware, although the industry is still seasonal. We 21 have extensive and historical and cultural ties with 22 our Mi'Kmaw, our Acadian and our Scottish heritage. 23 512 The Strait area has an industrial 24 base and an excellent port. 25 513 We have a lot of opportunities. Many StenoTran 104 1 of the residents in many of our communities are working 2 through CED, Community Economic Development initiatives 3 to improve their communities; but there are still a lot 4 of challenges. 5 514 The area has a lot of potential, as 6 we maintain, but it is still a largely seasonal economy 7 with high levels of unemployment. 8 515 My remarks are going to be brief, and 9 they apply mostly to CBC radio. But I think in some 10 respects CBC nationally has a similar mandate of going 11 into the homes of Canadians to tell them the story of 12 other Canadians. And I think that is important. 13 516 As you can tell, I am a fan of CBC 14 radio. I often listen to its programs, especially the 15 morning and afternoon programs. I am on road a lot, so 16 I do get the opportunity to listen to CBC Sydney. The 17 focus on local content and issues is important. I 18 think CBC radio offers programs which are significantly 19 different from privately operated mainstream programs. 20 517 I don't know if that caters to a 21 different listening audience, but an audience that has 22 different needs. I think it does a pretty good job of 23 doing that and helps us to be better informed about the 24 issues and events that are shaping and forming our 25 communities. It also encourages their active StenoTran 105 1 participation. I support this role. 2 518 The island right now is facing 3 perhaps one of its most serious economic crisis 4 situations in recent history. We have a reputation for 5 dealing with this. However, I think we live in an 6 increasingly complex society with complex solutions. 7 Our decisions want to be and demand to be a part of 8 that decision-making process. We need vehicles like 9 CBC radio to help us with communication so that we can 10 help reach some type of consensus and cooperation to 11 fix these problems that we have. 12 519 In order to marshall those resources, 13 I think CBC radio performs a particularly important 14 function in maintaining and expanding the dialogue. 15 520 Dialogue is important. As I have 16 often heard, as many of us probably have around the 17 table, the comments that we hear on radio and read in 18 the papers and listen to in television from ordinary 19 average on-the-street Cape Bretoners and Nova Scotians 20 and Canadians. I think that brings us a little bit 21 more in touch with the problems and helps us find some 22 of those solutions. 23 521 I must make one comment. CBC radio 24 is based in Sydney. It is one of the few institutions 25 that does an excellent, very credible job of reaching StenoTran 106 1 out into the rural communities and making the rural 2 communities seem a part of being Cape Bretoners. 3 522 We tend to feel a bit left out, away 4 from major population areas. 5 523 There is a broad area of Cape Breton 6 Island which does not have access to Sydney stations. 7 Portions of western and southern parts of the island, 8 including the Strait of Canso area, receive their CBC 9 radio feed from the Mulgrave transmitter at the Strait 10 of Canso, which broadcasts the Halifax signal. 11 524 With all respect to this provincial 12 operation based in Halifax, it does not provide the 13 focus or impact on Cape Breton issues which the Sydney 14 station provides. I would estimate that there are at 15 least 20,000 Cape Bretoners that do not receive the 16 same message or have the same opportunity to 17 participate as the rest of us. 18 525 I would ask the CRTC to begin 19 transmitting the Sydney station signal from the 20 Mulgrave transmitter so that all Cape Bretoners can 21 have an equal opportunity to participate in dialogue 22 and discussions of our future, which I think are being 23 very well provided by the public broadcaster on our 24 tiny rock in the stream. 25 526 I think this decision would go a long StenoTran 107 1 way towards promoting community economic development 2 activities on the island. 3 527 Thank you very much for the 4 opportunity to be here. 5 528 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 6 MacDonald. 7 529 Mr. Stewart. 8 1520 9 530 MR. STEWART: I now invite Ms Jo-Ann 10 Citrigno to make her presentation. 11 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 12 531 MS CITRIGNO: Thank you. My name is 13 Jo-Ann Citrigno. I live in Glace Bay. My background 14 is working with community organizations. I spent eight 15 years working in community radio, but most recently I 16 have been involved in supervising youth exchanges. 17 532 I would like to thank the CRTC for 18 this opportunity to speak about the CBC. 19 533 Many of my comments have also been 20 made by previous speakers, so I will try not to go into 21 too much detail. I think it is important for all of us 22 who do have similar points to strongly make those 23 points so that the CRTC knows that there are many of us 24 that agree with some of the things that have been said 25 already about local programming and Canadian content. StenoTran 108 1 I will try and be brief about it. 2 534 As has been touched upon by several 3 people in this room, I also think that it is extremely 4 important to have local broadcasting. Cape Breton, 5 Sydney, industrial Sydney area and all of Cape Breton 6 is quite far from Halifax. I used to live in Halifax, 7 and when I moved here I noticed quite a distinct 8 difference in terms of community issues. I think there 9 is a great need to have a local broadcaster. 10 535 I think that "Information Morning", 11 as has been previously stated, does a very good job in 12 involving people in the community on the airwaves, both 13 in terms of who they choose to interview and 14 facilitating ways for people to comment on their 15 programs. I think that is very important. I wish 16 there was more local programming. 17 536 I would like to talk a little bit 18 more about radio, which is my more intense love than 19 television, and also where I have a little bit more 20 experience. 21 537 I am currently unemployed, so I have 22 lots of time to listen to CBC during the day. While 23 overall I really love CBC in general, I would have to 24 say that I think that they do need more diversity in 25 terms of their music programming, especially the Monday StenoTran 109 1 to Friday daytime. I really like classical music 2 personally, but I think the Monday to Friday 3 programming is very repetitive and some work could be 4 done to put a little bit more diversity into that music 5 programming. 6 538 I am one of the youngest people in 7 the room today, I think. That is not surprising, but I 8 think it is a shame. I think that CBC does not cater 9 enough to youth. I guess that is partly where I am 10 coming from when I talk about the lack of diversity 11 within its music programming. 12 539 Having come from a community radio 13 background, I am aware that there is an awful lot more 14 musical styles out there that are represented on CBC, 15 and there are a lot of communities that don't hear 16 their voices. 17 540 One example that I am pretty aware of 18 from my experience at the community station CKDU in 19 Halifax is that you rarely hear any hip-hop or dance 20 music on CBC, as well as other smaller genres, like 21 blues and bluegrass. While there is an attempt to do 22 some world music, it is still limited to a very small 23 portion of the airwave time slots. 24 541 I say this very sincerely. I think a 25 lot of people, when they hear me say that there should StenoTran 110 1 be more hip-hop or any hip-hop on CBC, probably think 2 well, there are so few people that want to listen to 3 that. But that is not true. There are so many people, 4 particularly youth, that that is the music that is most 5 meaningful to them. It is just one example of my 6 perception that the CBC is not appealing to a younger 7 audience. 8 542 Certainly that could be extended to 9 current affairs programming, of course, having younger 10 produces and more interviews with youth. But I really 11 notice it with music primarily. 12 543 One idea I had in terms of my 13 criticism of the monotony of CBC FM "Classics and 14 Beyond" -- while I really do think the programming is 15 of high quality, it just needs more diversity. 16 544 Perhaps one possibility would be to 17 have a weekly time slot in that block of mainly 18 classical music where there would be a competition for 19 young producers across the country to do a show, to 20 have an opportunity to not only showcase different 21 kinds of music but perhaps to have different styles of 22 hosting, of show production. 23 545 I think it would be nice to hear 24 people from across the country. I think there is a 25 wealth of talented people in the community radio sector StenoTran 111 1 that, for the most part, are going to stay in the 2 community radio sector; they are not going to move to 3 CBC. But we could benefit from hearing more from them 4 on those airwaves. 5 546 Sydney, for example, only has a 6 university radio station that broadcasts on campus. It 7 doesn't go off campus. And there are so many smaller 8 communities than Sydney across the country that don't 9 have access to community radio. 10 547 In terms of television, which I don't 11 watch as much as listen to the radio, the main thing I 12 want to say is that I appreciate the support for 13 Canadian programming. I think it is very important to 14 see ourselves on the air, and I think it is very 15 important to allow people who have great creative 16 contributions to have an opportunity to air their 17 creative output, whether it is audio or visual. 18 548 I have been happy that attempts are 19 made with shows from times to time, shows like "North 20 of 60" and "Black Harbour". Even if they don't last, 21 it is nice to see them for a short time; and shows like 22 "This Hour has 22 Minutes" and "The Royal Canadian Air 23 Farce" and "Comics". 24 549 "Comics" especially, I am not as fond 25 of it as the previously two mentioned shows, but I am StenoTran 112 1 just glad that those people have a chance to go on the 2 air and people have a chance to hear them. I am glad 3 that CBC supports talent like that. 4 550 In terms of both television and radio 5 in terms of the news and current affairs broadcasts, I 6 want to say that the CBC is very important for me. 7 There are many different sources of news available, and 8 I make those available to myself; but I find that I do 9 rely heavily on CBC for news and current affairs 10 programming, and I hope that that continues to be a 11 very strong area for them. 12 551 As I said earlier, the local 13 broadcasting is really important for keeping in touch 14 with local issues. 15 552 I do want to specifically say that I 16 appreciate the quality of reporting on "The National" 17 and I appreciate the representation in terms of the 18 reporters. As Ms Cusack said earlier, I think that CBC 19 has gone a long way to representing women on the 20 airwaves, and I am happy to see increased 21 representation of people from various ethnic 22 backgrounds in terms of reporting on "The National". 23 553 I am very happy about that -- 24 although of course there are still ways to go there 25 too. StenoTran 113 1 554 To finish, I want to emphasize the 2 importance of CBC in terms of promoting and helping to 3 create Canadian culture. I think CBC plays a vital 4 role in doing that, especially in promoting lesser 5 known Canadian artists; musical and those participating 6 in drama, actors, writers and producers, and all 7 aspects of creative broadcast time. 8 555 I think many Canadians do have a hard 9 time articulating what Canadian culture is. I know 10 that many youth do, because I have been working with 11 youth for a long time. I want to say, even though I am 12 not necessarily better at articulating what Canadian 13 culture is or is not, I am very aware of it as an 14 entity or as a thing, because I have spent four years 15 overseas. 16 556 CBC is an important part of whatever 17 it is. Even though it might be hard to sort of pin 18 down, there is Canadian culture and it is represented 19 on the CBC; and I hope that in the future more effort 20 will be put into promoting it as opposed to less. I 21 think there is a lot of room to do more of it. 22 557 As also has been said previously, it 23 is very important for myself to have an alternative to 24 commercial radio and TV. I don't like the homogeneity 25 of those broadcasters, as has been said earlier. StenoTran 114 1 558 I think that is all I want to say, 2 except perhaps one comment. I appreciate the 3 difficulties that broadcasters have in attaining 4 balance, especially on controversial issues, as has 5 been referred to by two of the speakers. While I 6 personally don't agree with everything that the CBC 7 says at all, I think they work pretty hard in trying to 8 achieve that balance. 9 559 Thank you. 10 560 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 11 Ms Citrigno, and thanks for reminding those of us who 12 are older than you are that we are older. I am trying 13 to imagine playing hip-hop on the bagpipes that Mr. 14 MacKay was referring to earlier. 15 561 Mr. Stewart. 16 1535 17 562 MR. STEWART: I now invite Mr. David 18 Papazian. I hope that is the way one pronounces your 19 name, sir; and if I have mispronounced it, I apologize. 20 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 21 563 MR. PAPAZIAN: Pretty close. 22 564 Good afternoon. Thank you for the 23 opportunity to address you. My comments are mainly fro 24 my experience as a regular listener to CBC Radio One, 25 the former AM network. StenoTran 115 1 565 I come before you today as an 2 individual Canadian citizen, representing no political 3 party or advocacy group. My special interest is a 4 vibrant, thoughtful, responsible Canadian civic culture 5 for my own behalf and thus, by extension, for all of my 6 fellow citizens. 7 566 In a many cultured nation, divided as 8 we are by many miles and mountains, the task of 9 creating and facilitating a dynamic and positive civic 10 discourse could be formidable. Civic discourse is, by 11 nature, controversial, complicated and often downright 12 messy. 13 567 It involves an ongoing self-renewal, 14 an informed dialogue, understanding, listening, 15 learning of and from one another. 16 568 On the eve of the new millennium, the 17 founding spirit and intentions of the Broadcasting Act 18 should be revisited and replanted in our minds, I 19 believe. 20 569 The CBC's mandate, as enunciated in 21 the 1968 Act, required that the national broadcasting 22 service be predominantly Canadian in character and 23 content, be a balanced service of information, 24 enlightenment and entertainment for the people of 25 different ages, different interests and tastes, StenoTran 116 1 covering the whole range of programming in fair 2 proportion, to be extended to all parts of Canada, to 3 be in English and French, serving the special needs of 4 geographic regions, and actively contributing to the 5 flow and exchange of cultural and regional information 6 and entertainment, and to provide for a continuing 7 expression of the Canadian identity. 8 570 That is a tall order, and inevitably 9 there are going to be some people who are going to feel 10 left out or misrepresented or under-represented. 11 571 The CBC fulfils its role as the 12 national public broadcaster as well as it possibly can 13 in this day and age, given the constant budgetary 14 pressures that successive federal governments have 15 placed on it over the last 15 years. 16 572 The notion that the airwaves are in 17 some significant measure a public space, free from 18 commercial self-interest, dedicated to the pursuit of 19 the common good, this is the bedrock of the founding 20 philosophy of the CBC. This role should never change, 21 despite constantly evolving technologies -- expensive 22 technologies in a lot of cases, I agree. 23 573 The CBC radio serves the public a 24 healthy balance of local, as we have heard a lot about, 25 regional, as we have heard a fair amount about, and StenoTran 117 1 national programming. 2 574 Local stations have been closed and 3 repeat broadcasts have become commonplace on the CBC of 4 late. Various locations, as was stated, remain unable 5 to access a reliable radio signal in 1999. 6 575 Huntsville, Ontario, in the heart of 7 the Muskokas, and various parts of this island, Cape 8 Breton, as was previously mentioned, are known to me 9 personally. There are numerous other spots across this 10 huge country, and this problem should be rectified 11 immediately. 12 576 Nonetheless, the remaining employees 13 soldier on as best they can with dwindling resources. 14 Now, not surprisingly, we have labour disputes. 15 577 Canada enjoys a unique and a proud 16 place in the history of radio, as Mr. MacKay mentioned, 17 and of public broadcasting, as I believe you are well 18 aware. We were one of the first in the world -- maybe 19 not the first, but one of the first, and public 20 broadcasting has a special place in this country. It 21 has to. It is too big a country. Otherwise, we 22 wouldn't have a hope. 23 578 This important heritage should be 24 celebrated and not nickel and dimed out of existence. 25 My alarm bells rang loud and clear around 1988 when it StenoTran 118 1 became known that the new broadcasting centre in 2 Toronto -- the place everyone outside of Toronto loves 3 to hate; I am from Toronto, by the way -- was financed 4 by 80 per cent private capital, a hitherto 5 unprecedented, and dare I say an unwelcome, 6 arrangement. 7 579 Stable, long term financing was 8 advocated repeatedly: in 1949 by the Massey 9 Commission; in 1957 by the Fowler Commission; in 1961 10 by the Glasgow Commission; in 1965 by the Fowler 11 Committee; and in a White Paper in 1966. All this 12 leading up to the Broadcasting Act after the centenary 13 in 1968. 14 580 In an ideal Canada, in my view, a 15 proclamation of the responsibility of the Federal 16 Government to guarantee adequate, even generous, 17 funding to the public broadcaster could be included in 18 the Bill of Rights, as in it is the right of all 19 Canadians to enjoy, et cetera, clause. Or it could be 20 written into the Constitution as a basic obligation of 21 the Federal Government. 22 581 The present cost of about $5 a year 23 per Canadian citizen for the present level of the radio 24 service in Canada is most modest, in my opinion, and a 25 very prudent investment in our collective well-being. StenoTran 119 1 582 It is public organizations like a 2 national broadcaster which help knit together the 3 social fabric, that help us to be civil to one another 4 in daily life, to be kind, to cooperate, as we surely 5 must in this vast country of north. 6 583 Your third question, the mandate of 7 1968, I stated previously. What other station presents 8 programs on science and sports, world beat, pop 9 culture, religion, comedy, theatre and the arts? 10 "Ideas", the "University of the Air", the flagship "As 11 It Happens", covering the globe; jazz and "The Music of 12 Quebec", "C'est la vie"; a much needed dialogue from 13 French to English Canada -- and I emphasize dialogue; 14 politics, local, morning, noon -- well, not noon shows 15 locally here any more, but local morning and afternoon 16 shows in many parts of the country. 17 584 I never even mentioned Peter Gzowski, 18 who has recently retired but whose spirit still is 19 around and whose example on "Morningside" was I think 20 an example for all of us of the guy who could speak to 21 just about anybody and listen to them and talk to them 22 in their language and learn from them. 23 585 Under your auspices, private 24 broadcasters are free to invent their format of 25 programming and services. They are free to target StenoTran 120 1 their audience, tailor their advertising strategies and 2 enhance their bottom line as they choose. This is not 3 to say that the private broadcasters are inferior to 4 the CBC, but rather to point out that they occupy 5 mutually exclusive territory. 6 586 There should be no conflict of 7 interest between private and public broadcasters in 8 that case, in my opinion. 9 587 Television, I think all Canadian 10 programming is a good idea. 11 588 Economically, the money that is 12 invested is our money, as taxpayers and citizens. The 13 spinoffs are remarkable. They are incalculable really. 14 It is impossible to measure them in dollars and cents. 15 All these people that have jobs from the CBC are paying 16 taxes and investing that money back into the economy 17 right away. It is not like it is being thrown down the 18 drain, like some people would think. 19 589 The kind of activity that is 20 generated by the CBC -- and various of the presenters 21 today have spent a good deal of their time talking 22 about that activity -- and the mentality that that 23 creates and the imagination that that stimulates 24 individually, collectively, we can't put a price on. 25 We can't even think about putting a price on it. StenoTran 121 1 590 At the risk of repeating myself, I 2 will approach your last point: What special role 3 should the CBC play in the presentation of Canadian 4 programming? By way of speaking of the notion of civic 5 or public education, a society which neglects the 6 responsibility of educating its citizens is at the 7 least short-sighted and at the very worst 8 self-destructive. 9 591 Socrates, the champion of democracy, 10 well understood the necessity for an informed and 11 engaged citizenry. The shared costs of a public 12 broadcasting service should be seen as an investment in 13 ourselves and our collective civility. This very 14 modest investment reaps untold benefits, as I have 15 mentioned. 16 592 It would be hard to name a prominent 17 Canadian artist, writer, musician or actor who would 18 not credit the CBC for part of their success and their 19 livelihood. It is an essential conduit of grassroots 20 and indigenous stories, as was said, and news, as was 21 said, without which we would know significantly less 22 about ourselves. 23 593 Do we want to be strangers in this 24 vast land, or do we want to feel as neighbours? Do we 25 care about each other or not? Can we listen to one StenoTran 122 1 another or not? 2 594 Despite the marvellous advances in 3 communication technology, we risk becoming further 4 alienated in our private cyber worlds, if not for a 5 dedicated voice of national and public interest. 6 595 Canadians are free to turn it on or 7 turn it off, but the choice must remain for us to make. 8 I fear certain recent trends endanger the CBC. The 9 arm's length relationship of its operations from its 10 funding source must be maintained. 11 596 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, sir, your 12 ten minutes are up. 13 597 MR. PAPAZIAN: I am just winding up. 14 Shall I conclude? 15 598 THE CHAIRPERSON: If you can 16 summarize your conclusion. 17 599 MR. PAPAZIAN: Is it not the CRTC's 18 responsibility to oversee this relationship -- that is, 19 the arm's length relationship -- and to counsel the 20 government of the day if necessary? 21 600 Industrial managers and corporate 22 bean counters are not suitable appointments to 23 executive positions at the CBC, in my judgment. 24 601 Please remind Canadians and their 25 governments of the value and character of the public StenoTran 123 1 airwaves, free from commerce. The founding fathers 2 well understood the need for meaningful links to unite 3 us. Without them, we risk sure and certain dissolution 4 and fragmentation. 5 602 Thanks for listening. 6 603 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 7 much. 8 604 Mr. Stewart. 9 1550 10 605 MR. STEWART: Thank you. 11 606 I now invite Mr. Bob Peters to make 12 his presentation. 13 607 Mr. Peters, if you could adhere to 14 the ten-minute format, it would most appreciated. 15 Thank you. 16 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 17 608 MR. PETERS: This should only take 18 two minutes. 19 609 I didn't adhere to any sort of 20 outline or program, because I didn't get it in time to 21 look at it. 22 610 My name is Bob Peters. I am from 23 Margaree, Cape Breton, and I am a CBC radio fan. 24 611 I listen to CBC radio in my car while 25 I do my deliveries for five hours a day. I listen to StenoTran 124 1 CBC radio in my workshop. I listen to CBC in my home 2 while making supper and doing the dishes. Suffice it 3 to say, I am a proud fan of CBC radio. 4 612 Therefore, it concerns me that I 5 perceive interference on the content of your news 6 items. 7 613 For example, one morning at 5:00 8 a.m., I heard an item about a possible link between the 9 Hep B vaccination and multiple sclerosis. This item 10 was not repeated any more that day. Because our 11 children were due to have a school-sponsored 12 vaccination that week, I was disappointed that I heard 13 no more details. 14 614 Was this a deliberate attempt at 15 quashing a potential embarrassment to our public health 16 system? 17 615 Another example was a story that I 18 heard again at 5:00 a.m. It was concerning U.S. 19 bombing and shelling of Iraq, where it was disclosed 20 that spent uranium was placed inside the shells, so 21 that upon contact with the targets the radioactive 22 uranium would disperse, causing much more misery in 23 that country. 24 616 Again, this story was not 25 rebroadcast, and the question arises: Why and who is StenoTran 125 1 responsible for blocking this story? 2 617 Do these two examples point to 3 government censorship? If so, there is an obvious 4 problem. 5 618 Turning to something that is probably 6 more trivial than that, some years ago a Sydney radio 7 host was disciplined severely for playing one of her 8 own songs during her morning program. She played the 9 song as a result of a request from one of her 10 listeners. 11 619 Recently on his morning program from 12 Halifax, the host on several occasions played a song 13 that he wrote. No disciplinary measures were taken 14 against him. This points to unfair practices, I 15 believe. 16 620 Finally, I feel the strike should be 17 settled by offering the workers a fair package. I wish 18 the CBC would stop this leading advertising directed 19 against the unions and bargain in good faith. 20 621 Thank you very much. 21 622 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 22 Peters. I don't think we will resolve that last issue 23 around this table today. 24 1555 25 623 M. STEWART: J'inviterais maintenant StenoTran 126 1 M. Clermont Charland de la Fédération acadienne de la 2 Nouvelle-Écosse de Sydney à faire sa présentation, si 3 cette personne est ici. 4 624 Is Mr. Clermont Charland of the 5 Federation Acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse in the room? 6 No. 7 625 Very well, I will now invite Mr. Alan 8 Bird to make his presentation. 9 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 10 626 MR. BIRD: By way of introduction, 11 this is a joint presentation by Valerie, my wife, and 12 myself, Alan Bird. 13 627 We don't watch television very much 14 so we are not placed to talk about it, not very 15 effectively anyway. CBC radio is our constant 16 companion and its many voices, local, regional, 17 national, and overseas are welcome visitors to our 18 home. 19 628 They brighten our lives, bring 20 together the Canadian community for us and exemplify, 21 in our opinion, the finest traditions of journalism. 22 Their professionalism is second to none. 23 629 CBC radio does much more than 24 entertain and inform us. Thanks to the skills and 25 insights of its professional staff and personalities, StenoTran 127 1 it presents Canadians with a public forum. No matter 2 who we are or where we live, we can be heard nationally 3 in discourse of public interest and concern -- which is 4 rather pompous, now that I listen to it. 5 630 It means that we really mean we can 6 argue the toss with officialdom, municipal, provincial 7 or federal. 8 631 The evidence is that officialdom 9 usually pays attention, maybe not the first time 10 around, but it gets the message sooner or later. We 11 submit that there is no other medium in Canada, or 12 anywhere else that I know, that has the same clout. 13 Perhaps that is the CBC's nemesis today. 14 632 From that standpoint, there is 15 nothing of consequence that we would change in the way 16 that CBC radio is, or rather I should say was run. We 17 say was, because we have seen a steady erosion of CBC's 18 presence and resources local, regional, national and 19 now overseas, an erosion driven in part by Ottawa's 20 necessary budgetary constraints. 21 633 It goes on, however, and we wonder if 22 another agenda is at work now, another motive in play. 23 There may be no sinister intent in the current proposal 24 to set up in Ottawa a new secretariat of corporate 25 vice-presidents for determining what news Canadians StenoTran 128 1 shall be told and the spin to be put on its telling. 2 Whatever the intent, this proposal has sinister 3 implications, and we are not encouraged to believe 4 otherwise when CBC's board of directors is stacked with 5 the PMO's palace guard while the corporation is being 6 systematically purged of its own professional 7 management. 8 634 In our view, the CBC is not 9 government property, nor should it be placed in 10 jeopardy of becoming a propaganda mouthpiece for the 11 party in power from time to time. 12 635 In effect, we believe the CBC's 13 licences to broadcast are a public trust to be held in 14 the benefit of all Canadians, and it is now time to 15 reinforce the corporation's arm's length relationship 16 to Ottawa; that is independence of government must be 17 reasserted and rendered invulnerable. 18 636 Moreover, it is or should be the 19 first duty of the board of directors to uphold the 20 corporation's independence and public integrity, a duty 21 which should extinguish whatever loyalties and 22 obligations the board members may owe to the authority 23 which appoints them, a solemn understanding between the 24 parties concerned. 25 637 Perhaps it is time to revisit CBC's StenoTran 129 1 Act of Incorporation such that future appointees to the 2 board and the appointing authority know the rules. 3 This would of course challenge political appointments 4 to CBC's board, but that would be all to the good as 5 things stand today, fraught with hostility and 6 mistrust. And then again, it would make room at the 7 table for people who know something about the business 8 of public broadcasting. 9 638 To sum up, we believe CBC stands in 10 danger today from its own mentors; that its rich public 11 value is at risk of being reduced to a poverty of 12 political lip service. It is critical that the 13 corporation's mandate be reaffirmed for the new 14 millennium, buttressed against political meddling. 15 639 It tells us something, surely, when 16 listeners in the United States, American listeners, 17 call in to say how fortunate we Canadians are to have 18 such a fine broadcast service as CBC radio. 19 640 I am afraid if that is contentious, 20 it is not meant to be so. It is very heartfelt. 21 641 Thank you. 22 1600 23 642 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 24 Bird. 25 643 MR. STEWART: I now invite Ms Theresa StenoTran 130 1 MacNeil to make her presentation. 2 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 3 644 MS MacNEIL: Thank you. When one is 4 around the 20th in the lot, you wonder whether you 5 should just cut through and not repeat anything that 6 has already been said. I wondered and I opted to do 7 the repeating, because I think it does make a point 8 that this is what we feel strongly about. 9 645 I am here as a member of the Steering 10 Committee of Friends of Canadian Broadcasting, as a 11 representative of Cape Breton and to represent some 12 views I gathered from various parts of the province 13 from people who wished they could be here from 14 Wolfville, from Halifax, from Truro, from Antigonish 15 and of course from rural Cape Breton. 16 646 I can't possibly relay all the 17 messages of course, you will be glad to know. Instead, 18 I will stay with the four questions you circulated and 19 I will try to subsume some of the messages under those 20 questions. 21 647 The first one is about the way the 22 CBC fulfils its role. 23 648 The Broadcasting Act of 1991 clearly 24 specifies the role of the CBC as the national public 25 broadcaster responsible for providing "a wide range of StenoTran 131 1 programming that informs, enlightens and entertains". 2 Certainly it has done an admirable job of being as the 3 Act says, predominantly and distinctively Canadian. 4 649 But we are witnessing a decline in 5 the extent to which CBC is able to inform and 6 enlighten. We think this is due more to scarce dollars 7 than to policy, regardless the result is an erosion of 8 effectiveness. Locally, regionally, nationally and 9 internationally we have the benefit of fewer and fewer 10 reporters, providing less and less critical analysis. 11 As it steadily loses long established, highly competent 12 personnel, we notice that the CBC is either insensitive 13 to the importance of replacing them with competent 14 talent, or is financially unable to do so. Regardless, 15 the result is lack of lustre, loss of lustre and of 16 value. 17 650 You ask if the CBC should fulfil its 18 role in a different manner in the future. Of course, 19 the answer must be yes; yes, because of so many factors 20 in addition to funding and personnel, factors such as 21 the enormous shift in broadcasting technologies, 22 including the Internet. The way in which the role of 23 CBC is fulfilled must necessarily change, but the role 24 itself must remain. 25 651 It is difficult to say whose StenoTran 132 1 definition of entertainment should prevail, but it is 2 clear that if a policy to attract more and more 3 listeners is realized by shifting over to mass 4 entertainment, news headlines and minimum attention to 5 enlightenment, that is abandoning the role. 6 652 Attract more listeners, certainly; 7 but do it with the integrity afforded by the 8 Broadcasting Act. 9 653 The second question is about service 10 on a regional and national level. 11 654 I would be remiss in not mentioning 12 that the messages I gathered contained much that is 13 positive about local and regional broadcasting. You 14 have heard them so often this afternoon. Despite the 15 negative effect of losing the TV station in Sydney 16 virtually, despite the fights we periodically have to 17 wage to keep regional programming, despite the steady 18 shrinking of services, we think our CBC people are 19 doing a great job. 20 655 We wish they had more to work with. 21 We wish they were not always waiting for yet another 22 axe to fall. We applaud their professionalism and 23 their genuine service to the community. 24 656 The Broadcasting Act requires the CBC 25 to reflect Canada and its regions to national and StenoTran 133 1 regional audiences while serving the special needs of 2 those regions. Despite that requirement, we are very 3 worried that regional broadcasting is going to become a 4 casualty of three inter-related factors. 5 657 One, the labour disputes. How easy 6 it will be to stay with the modified centralized mode 7 we are now experiencing. 8 658 Second, the accumulated effects of 9 budget cuts; and third, plans concocted by the CBC 10 board of directors and senior management to split the 11 CBC into a number of small specialty services. We fear 12 this. 13 659 There are two categories of regional 14 programming. One is produced from the region for a 15 national audience. At the moment, our region does 16 really well in that category, and you have heard some 17 of it already. The CBC is an especially good citizen, 18 as a person earlier described about the co-production 19 efforts. I will skip over that point, but it is a very 20 important point. 21 660 It is also greatly nourished culture 22 groups, and in particular our black culture -- I am 23 talking about this region. In its own right, the CBC 24 in Nova Scotia is a development agent. 25 661 The second category of regional is StenoTran 134 1 the one that serves the special needs of the region. 2 We are experiencing losses in that category. 3 Relatively little is left of television. Even the 4 supper hour news is seriously eroded by budget cuts, 5 attrition and layoffs. Radio continues to provide 6 strong local and regional services, despite losses of 7 about one-third of their budgets. 8 662 I would like to comment about the 9 national level on two points. 10 663 First, we are not having sufficient 11 exposure to the other regions of Canada. This is 12 particularly true for television. In some other 13 regions there is enormous change in cultural 14 composition. Not so true here. That message seldom 15 reaches us, and consequently the joys and challenges 16 presented by the new faces of Canada are not well 17 understood here. 18 664 Even where the two official languages 19 are concerned, there is not much evidence that CBC and 20 Radio-Canada are showing each other's productions, even 21 through translation. From the standpoint of social 22 cohesion and good entertainment, much might be gained 23 by sharing the best productions of each network. 24 665 The second point is similar but 25 refers to classical productions. StenoTran 135 1 666 On television the CBC is not meeting 2 its requirement to, as the Act says, "actively 3 contribute to the flow of exchange of cultural 4 expression". This is likely because CBC has become 5 heavily commercialized and has been forced to aim much 6 of its programming at mass audiences. 7 667 The third question: Should CBC 8 programming differ from that provided by other 9 broadcasters? The simple answer is of course yes. 10 668 The CBC has an extraordinary mandate. 11 Just as we publicly fund education systems to ensure 12 development of certain critical human capacities, that 13 people will develop those capacities, we fund a public 14 broadcasting institution to -- again from the Act: "to 15 safeguard, enrich and strengthen the cultural, 16 political and social and economic fabric of Canada". 17 669 This function of the CBC is more 18 critical than ever now that the CRTC has deregulated 19 private broadcasting. In the new broadcasting 20 environment, the private broadcasters are being 21 required to promote the Canadian music industry by 22 playing 35 per cent Canadian recordings all day. The 23 rest of the job is left primarily to CBC radio. Yet, 24 following budget cuts, CBC radio has severely 25 diminished its news and current affairs coverage. StenoTran 136 1 670 In short, private broadcasters do not 2 have similar responsibility as is borne by the CBC with 3 respect to cultural expression. If that is the way the 4 CRTC chooses to have the job done, then it ought to 5 take steps to ensure that the CBC is allocated the 6 resources to do the job effectively. 7 671 I believe it should be clear from the 8 above responses about my answer about the special role 9 for the CBC, which is your question four. There is of 10 course a special role, and it is rooted in the mandate 11 given by the Parliament of Canada. 12 672 In concluding comments, I want to 13 mention a few other points, very briefly. They didn't 14 fit quite in the category of the questions. 15 673 One applies to the rural areas and 16 has to do with coverage and reception. It has been 17 mentioned by a number of people, and I think it has to 18 be mentioned again. 19 674 Many households in rural Nova Scotia 20 simply are unable to receive CBC broadcasting. The 21 reasons are more technical than I am able to describe, 22 but I will just cite my own experience. 23 675 After years of seeing Peter 24 Mansbridge with three faces on a snowy screen, we 25 finally bought a satellite dish in December. It is an StenoTran 137 1 expensive alternative for citizens who feel they have a 2 right to this public service. But now at least we 3 receive CBC as broadcast from Toronto and Vancouver, if 4 not Halifax. And Peter Mansbridge looks great. 5 676 The radio problem has no comparable 6 solution. For too many, Radio Two in particular is 7 simply not available. 8 677 My final comment has to do with the 9 related points of morale and funding. 10 678 Any sensible person will agree that 11 like any other organization, the CBC has to be fiscally 12 responsible. In these days of organization 13 restructuring, it is expected that CBC will have to 14 suffer its share. But too much pressure can be lethal. 15 679 One realizes we have reached a sorry 16 pass when the American press takes on the subject. 17 Saturday's Washington Post had an article on the way 18 CBC morale is shrinking with its budget. 19 680 While we already know about the 20 political tensions, it is noteworthy that the article 21 connects the Prime Minister's "long standing animosity 22 toward the network" with Ottawa's relentless budget 23 cuts to the corporation. And it quotes various senior 24 associates within the CBC who comment on the current 25 state of depression in the corporation. StenoTran 138 1 681 I am going to quote from one who is 2 not now in the CBC. 3 682 This loss of enthusiasm, of course, 4 is evident to all of us. The article quotes Jeffrey 5 Davorkin. He is the former Managing Editor of CBC 6 English language radio and now is in the U.S. with 7 national public radio. He said that the CBC for many, 8 many years was "simply an astonishing place to work, 9 probably the best public broadcasting service in the 10 world. But it has lost that now and there doesn't seem 11 much will to restore it." 12 683 I hope that matters have not sunk too 13 far. The CBC needs to have its worth publicly 14 affirmed. One of the ways to do it is through your 15 efforts, where you demonstrate to the Government of 16 Canada that we want very much to continue the CBC with 17 its present mandate. 18 684 To fulfil that mandate, it needs 19 adequate levels of multi-year funding, knowing in 20 advance what it is going to be. If that happens, the 21 organization might well -- 22 685 I forgot the point that the 23 alternative to this might be to turn it into a popular 24 commercial broadcaster, but I don't think that is an 25 alternative. To do that might enable the organization StenoTran 139 1 to live, but it will have lost the whole point of its 2 special role. 3 686 Through Parliament we have charged 4 the CBC to be predominantly and distinctively Canadian, 5 to serve the special needs of the regions, and to 6 actively contribute to the flow and exchange of 7 cultural expression. These are extraordinary demands 8 requiring the most creative, thorough and committed 9 resources which will serve all of Canada. The death of 10 Canada's largest cultural institution simply must not 11 be allowed. The CRTC is in a position to reinvigorate 12 it. You have our support as you proceed to do that. 13 687 Thank you. 14 688 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 15 Ms MacNeil. 16 689 I think Commissioner Langford has a 17 question for you. 18 690 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I have tried 19 to keep the urge to question participants down, but I 20 think we are getting near the end so maybe I can let 21 the urge go. 22 691 I wish that the CRTC were the body 23 you just described, but I think perhaps standing 24 between the CRTC you described and the real CRTC is 25 Paul Martin. And we are not Paul Martin. StenoTran 140 1 692 Assuming we wished to do everything 2 you have said but cannot because of what we are -- a 3 regulator rather than a finance minister -- what other 4 alternative are there in your mind? 5 693 We all remember when the CBC was 6 described as fat and sassy. It was kind of a favourite 7 target. All of a sudden it is lean and haggard and 8 walking with a tin cup. Are there other alternatives? 9 694 Should we in fact suggest more 10 advertising? Should we bring in advertising -- horror 11 of horrors? If we are not Paul Martin and we want to 12 do the sorts of things that people have spoken about 13 here, what flexibility is open to the CBC and what 14 particular suggestions could we, as a regulating body, 15 make? 16 695 That is a big question, but maybe 17 just one or two ideas. 18 696 MS MacNEIL: And it is going to have 19 a much bigger answer than I have, of course. 20 697 I am not naive enough to think for a 21 moment that if we just keep saying all the things we 22 are saying this afternoon that we would convince all of 23 the Canadian public. I don't believe that. The easy 24 answer is to say more political clout and Paul Martin 25 will hear. StenoTran 141 1 698 I do think there is a role to be 2 played, and I guess all of us can help with it, and I 3 certainly think the CRTC can make a big mark in it. 4 That is to remind us about what it is we said we 5 wanted. 6 699 This is an Act of Parliament that we 7 are working under here. It is not some whim of a 8 government of 30 years ago. This Act is 1991, the one 9 that we now live under that was passed, and I don't 10 think we really fully appreciate what it is saying. It 11 is saying it is awfully hard to deny the need for what 12 it is claiming we ought to have. 13 700 I think there are others around the 14 table who might want to join in on your question. 15 701 The one thing I would say is that we 16 have to remind Canadians -- and of course the 17 politicians accordingly, as a result of reminding the 18 population -- that this is what the Act says and this 19 is what we want. 20 702 THE CHAIRPERSON: Before we go on to 21 this, there is one other party who was on the list who 22 arrived after they were called. 23 703 I am quite interested in pursuing 24 this discussion, but I would rather have him make his 25 presentation before we get too far into this StenoTran 142 1 interesting discussion. 2 704 Mr. Stewart. 3 705 M. STEWART: Merci, Monsieur le 4 président. Je crois comprendre que M. Clermont 5 Charland est maintenant dans la salle. 6 706 J'invite M. Charland à venir au 7 microphone afin de faire sa présentation. 8 707 M. CHARLAND: À quel endroit? 9 1615 10 708 M. STEWART: Devant n'importe quel 11 microphone qui est libre. 12 709 J'aimerais vous souligner que si vous 13 pouvez limiter vos commentaires à environ 10 minutes, 14 ça serait très apprécié. Merci. 15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 16 710 M. CHARLAND: Mon nom est Clermont 17 Charland. Je suis ici au nom de la Fédération 18 acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse. 19 711 Est-ce que c'est correct si je 20 m'adresse en français? Je peux le faire en anglais 21 tout aussi bien, mais ça dérange pas? 22 712 En français? O.k. 23 713 Alors, nous, la Fédération acadienne 24 de la Nouvelle-Écosse, la section Sydney ici plus 25 spécifiquement, je veux parler de deux choses: d'un StenoTran 143 1 volet, c'est la radio, puis l'autre, c'est la 2 télévision. 3 714 Alors, au niveau de la radio, on n'a 4 pas vraiment le choix parce qu'ici lorsqu'on est dans 5 un milieu minoritaire, les stations de radio 6 francophones à Sydney, il y en a une. C'est 7 Radio-Canada. Alors, on n'a vraiment pas le choix. On 8 n'est pas vraiment content du contenu dans le sens 9 qu'il n'y a absolument rien au niveau local. 10 715 Tout arrive de Halifax. Il y a 11 quelques heures de programmation le matin qui viennent 12 de Halifax. Le restant de la journée... je pense que 13 l'avant-midi il vient de Moncton, et puis le restant, 14 bien la plupart du temps, ça vient de Montréal. Alors, 15 il n'y a absolument aucun contenu local. 16 716 Bien souvent dans la journée, si on 17 entend les nouvelles, les nouvelles de Radio-Canada 18 International, ça c'est correct. Ça nous concerne, 19 tout ce qui se passe dans le monde. Mais un moment 20 donné, on a le volet les Maritimes, on parle du 21 Nouveau-Brunswick, on parle de Terre-Neuve, on parle de 22 la Nouvelle-Écosse et différentes provinces, 23 l'Ile-du-Prince-Édouard, mais le contenu régional 24 manque un peu à cet effet-là. 25 717 Si je peux parler au niveau de la StenoTran 144 1 télévision, mais encore là, ici à Sydney-même, si on 2 regarde la câblodistribution, on a Radio-Canada, 3 Quatre-Saisons et TVA. Alors, on a un certain choix. 4 Si on n'est pas content de Radio-Canada, bien on peut 5 toujours aller aux deux autres postes. Mais on est 6 quand même très limité à comparer des autres canaux. 7 Disons, sur 50-60 canaux, il y a peut-être 57 canaux 8 anglophones, trois francophones. 9 718 Pour ceux d'entre nous, moi 10 d'ailleurs, qui demeurent un peu à l'extérieur de la 11 ville, dans le secteur de New Waterford, Glace Bay, 12 aussitôt qu'on s'éloigne de la ville, on n'est plus sur 13 le câble du Cap Breton. On est sur ce qu'on appelle le 14 Seaside cable. Lorsque je suis déménagé à Sydney il y 15 a trois ans, j'ai été vraiment frustré de ça lorsque je 16 me suis aperçu qu'on avait un seul poste français. 17 C'était Radio-Canada. Alors encore-là, on n'avait 18 absolument aucun choix. C'était Radio-Canada ou bien 19 rien. 20 719 Alors, j'ai fait une plainte. J'ai 21 eu une petite pétition, et puis, le câblodistributeur a 22 bien voulu rajouter Quatre-Saisons. Alors, on était 23 content. Puis là, on est en négociations avec le CRTC. 24 J'ai fait une plainte moi-même au CRTC pour essayer 25 d'avoir TVA. Je sais qu'éventuellement on va l'avoir. StenoTran 145 1 720 Puis aussi, on n'a pas le RDI. Le 2 Réseau de l'information qui est disponible du côté 3 anglophone n'est bien sûr pas disponible du côté 4 francophone. Que ce soit du côté du câble local, le 5 câble Breton ou bien le Seaside cable, ni l'un ni 6 l'autre ne diffuse présentement le Réseau 7 d'information. 8 721 Alors, on est un peu limité. Comme 9 madame a mentionné tout à l'heure, on est vraiment 10 enseveli depuis quelques années avec les réseaux 11 américains. C'est certain si on n'est pas content de 12 la diffusion de Radio-Canada ou les autres canaux 13 anglophones canadiens, bien on peut toujours aller du 14 côté américain. C'est pas le choix qui manque. 15 722 Mais lorsqu'on est francophone et 16 puis qu'on essaie, des fois, c'est difficile en milieu 17 minoritaire. On essaie... on se bat pour essayer de 18 maintenir notre langue. Nous, les adultes, on est 19 correct dans le sens que surtout si notre première 20 langue maternelle est le français, soit acadien ou 21 canadien-français, alors, c'est acquis. Mais pour nos 22 jeunes qui grandissent, eux, il faut faire attention. 23 Je vois déjà mes enfants ou plusieurs enfants qui vont 24 toujours le côté le plus facile. 25 723 Alors, pourquoi écouter la télévision StenoTran 146 1 en français quand on a un choix limité? On peut aller 2 du côté anglophone, puis avoir un choix illimité. 3 Alors, quand on vit en milieu minoritaire, il faut 4 vraiment faire attention. Il faut vraiment se battre 5 pour nos droits. 6 724 Alors, c'est à peu près ça là. Je ne 7 sais pas si vous avez des questions. 8 725 M. STEWART: Merci, Monsieur 9 Charland. 10 --- Applause / Applaudissements 11 726 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is there anybody 12 else that was on the list or had registered to make a 13 presentation here today who has not done so yet? 14 727 Is there anybody else who had not 15 registered who wants to say a word or two? 16 728 Then, maybe we can return to the 17 question Commissioner Langford asked. 18 729 I don't know whether anybody else 19 wants to respond to the issue. Ms MacNeil had made a 20 comment 21 730 MR. MacKAY: Mr. Chairman, in 22 response to Ms MacNeil's comment that parts of Cape 23 Breton are not covered by the CBC, there is what they 24 call an LPRT, a low power radio transmitter, that can 25 be placed on a pole. It is 20 watts only, but it is StenoTran 147 1 good for any community. 2 731 I think if people who are in a place 3 like that -- I would go after the CBC vigorously and 4 try to get that facility into your area. 5 732 They have it in St. Peters; they have 6 it in Arishat; they have it in Margaree; and Pumpket, I 7 think. It is microwaved to those areas into an LPRT, 8 which is very low maintenance. I think the CBC 9 technician probably once a year maintains it. So it is 10 very low cost, and it is very effective. 11 733 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 12 MacKay. 13 734 I think you Mr. Papazian wanted to 14 make a comment? 15 735 MR. PAPAZIAN: I would like to 16 clarify our point. What is your mandate? What is your 17 enunciated mandate when it comes to -- when faced with 18 a Broadcasting Act that I suppose mandates the 19 government somehow. 20 736 It is the Government of Canada that 21 has to follow the Broadcasting Act. Right? 22 737 The Broadcasting Act was renewed the 23 last time in 1991? We could go back to 1968, and we 24 could go back, and so on and so forth. 25 738 In each case it seems to me the StenoTran 148 1 intentions are virtually identical. It is very clear. 2 It has not changed. That is Ms MacNeil's point about 3 the role. Your question was a little bit misleading: 4 should the role change in the new millennium, or 5 whatever. 6 739 Yes, it is going to change, because 7 we have new technologies; they evolve constantly. 8 Television was barely an idea when radio came in, et 9 cetera. 10 740 The point is the role remains 11 identically the same. It always will. That is the 12 sense of continuity. 13 741 My question is or my clarification 14 is: Haven't you people got some sense of -- part of 15 your mandate is to counsel or remind, as I said in my 16 presentation. Is that part of your mandate or is it 17 not? 18 742 Regulate, oversee, implement the 19 Broadcast Act? 20 743 THE CHAIRPERSON: It is. But as Mr. 21 Langford was pointing out, we don't control the purse 22 strings. We don't allocate the funding to the CBC. 23 744 To answer your question, we can make 24 comments to the government about the adequacy of the 25 funding, or whatever, but we don't have the power to StenoTran 149 1 make the determination of the size of the budget. That 2 is really -- 3 745 MR. PAPAZIAN: No one is asking you 4 to make a number, sir. I think the point you just 5 said -- you just said that you have the obligation to 6 represent to the government, especially when you hear 7 from round tables like this that Canadians are 8 concerned that their broadcaster, the public airwaves, 9 is being nickelled and dimed out of existence contrary 10 to an Act of Parliament, you just reaffirmed to me, I 11 believe, if I understand your reply, that you have an 12 obligation to remind the government that it is not 13 doing its job. 14 746 THE CHAIRPERSON: I don't think those 15 were the words I used. Let me try by asking a little 16 different question on the same thing, and we can 17 perhaps open it up for discussion. 18 747 Ms. MacNeil, I was intrigued by a 19 comment you made -- and I was not able to write all of 20 this down. Earlier in your comments you made some 21 reference to you hoped the CBC would not become smaller 22 by focusing on smaller specialty services. I think 23 those were the words you used. 24 748 MS MacNEIL: Yes. 25 749 THE CHAIRPERSON: Before you answer, StenoTran 150 1 there has been some talk from the CBC -- I think it was 2 raised first during the TV Policy Hearings -- about 3 this notion of constellations. I think that was the 4 phrase they have been using. About perhaps expanding 5 into a number of other areas of specialty program 6 services, either on television or radio, and about 7 spending moneys on new media and program services 8 related to the Internet, and so on. 9 750 I wonder what your comment was 10 meaning when you talked about smaller specialty 11 services and particularly in the context of getting 12 back to Commissioner Langford's question about funding 13 and how from a regulatory point of view one might 14 address this issue of dealing with that whole question 15 of adequate funding. 16 751 MS MacNEIL: I am sort of on the line 17 that Mr. MacKay was. He used a really straightforward 18 example about technology. I was thinking in the same 19 vein, but about the suggestion recently of all of the 20 news being handled in one place; that we would have a 21 CBC news network perhaps. That is what I am seeing out 22 of this suggestion of movement of CBC news to Ottawa. 23 752 I don't pretend to know much more 24 than I read in the newspapers about this. 25 753 As we would focus -- and you see it StenoTran 151 1 in a way with Radio One and Radio Two. As we multiply 2 all of this, I understand the point. It is a good 3 point of picking up and holding listeners and viewers, 4 but it is also a danger of these becoming independent 5 networks and losing the integrity of the Canadian 6 Broadcasting Corporation. There is a danger of 7 boutiques that are not particularly related one to the 8 other. That is all I saw. 9 754 What has that got to do with funding, 10 I wonder? 11 755 It was easy to see when Mr. MacKay 12 was speaking that there might be some priorities that 13 come before, just heading down the road pell-mell to 14 improve technology or to move to the latest technology. 15 756 I think it is not a very easy thing 16 we are asking the CBC to do. We are asking them to be 17 very fiscally controlled and to do all of these 18 wonderful things in terms of fulfilling the mandate 19 they have been given through the Act. 20 757 I think if we keep reminding them and 21 ourselves and the Government of Canada most of all 22 about what that mandate is and how important it is, 23 there will be ways to do it. There will be ways to do 24 it even through tax dollars. 25 758 But right now, I see the fight is StenoTran 152 1 between -- it seems to be much more political than it 2 ought to be. I don't think the dollar problem -- I 3 grant that it is very serious, but I don't think it is 4 the whole story it is being made out to be. 5 759 If we look at the integrity of the 6 act and then think of the specialty pieces that need to 7 be put in, it will somehow all fit together like the 8 roots that you were speaking about earlier -- I'm 9 sorry, I don't remember your name -- and the unifying 10 feature. 11 760 I would love is somebody else would 12 pick up from me. 13 761 I can only say that it is important 14 to maintain the integrity, to do the best we can on 15 finances. And as we do that, I think there will be 16 more public money forthcoming. 17 762 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Perhaps I can 18 clarify what I was leading to. 19 763 I am not trying to push anybody into 20 a position here, and please understand that I heard and 21 took careful notes and will read the transcripts on 22 every word that was said here. 23 764 I am not suggesting that anybody's 24 position is the wrong position or is a position that I 25 am not going to listen to. I was merely trying to StenoTran 153 1 squeeze a little more out of you. 2 765 We have come here to listen to you 3 and that's what we do; and the more we can get, the 4 better. If you don't have a position on this, that's 5 fine. 6 766 I listened with interest to Ms 7 Verrill, who is speaking in terms of groups who are 8 using office space on Sackville Street. We have kind 9 of an interesting situation. Here is the CBC being 10 kind and giving people some office space. Probably 11 they could rent that office space and make a little 12 money for their regional programming. 13 767 So there are some strange things 14 going on here. They are wonderful things. In one 15 sense, this is a wonderful story. In another sense, 16 where do they get the money; and if they can't get the 17 money -- 18 768 If people here have ideas, that is 19 simply all I am looking for; if there are more ideas, 20 or if there are priorities. Should they be out of this 21 type of programming and more into this? 22 769 We heard from Ms Citrigno that she 23 would like to see a little more programming for younger 24 audiences. If they move in that direction and they 25 don't get more financing, where do they move away from? StenoTran 154 1 770 If people don't have any ideas on 2 that, that is fine; but if you do, and I can squeeze 3 them out of you, I will leave here even happier than I 4 am now. 5 771 MS CUSACK: First of all, on the 6 issue of the CRTC's ability to perhaps push Paul 7 Martin, should it be inclined to do so at the end of 8 this series of hearings, I would think that you are in 9 a perfect position to -- this was said earlier, but I 10 want to re-emphasize it -- reflect the diverse voices 11 you are going to hear from around the country to 12 government. 13 772 In the past, I think you have 14 strongly stated things in the regulation of the 15 communications industry in this country. You have made 16 certain assertions with very strong moralsuasion, I 17 think. You are in a position to do that, and I think 18 you should take on that challenge in defence of the 19 principles in the legislation. 20 773 On the other point you raised with 21 Dr. MacNeil, let me say that I think when you dilute 22 the resources, particularly when they are limited, you 23 really do risk taking away the vitality of that same 24 tree about which we have been talking. 25 774 Interestingly, there was a physician StenoTran 155 1 on "Information Morning" regionally this morning who 2 talked about the high death rate for women in child 3 birth. He said that the Yamini women were dying 4 because they were having too many children and just 5 burning out the resources of their bodies and that 6 there is a direct correlation. 7 775 I think the same would happen if we 8 had five or six CBC networks running in tandem. We now 9 have several -- I mean five or six English networks. 10 We now have several networks. I think it is about all 11 the body can bear at this point. 12 776 I want to make a third point. 13 777 There were two speakers who addressed 14 the issue of objectivity and so-called family values. 15 778 I am a member of a group called 16 EGALE, Equality for Gays and Lesbians Everywhere, as a 17 lawyer. I am also a member of the Canadian Bar 18 Association's SOGIC group, which is the Sexual 19 Orientation and Gender Identity Conference. I wish to 20 point out that I doubt very much that the views of 21 those speakers reflect totally the views of all of the 22 people in this room, and certainly do not reflect the 23 views of all of the population of Nova Scotia. 24 779 Family values in Canada now, I think, 25 have a far greater meaning; and that is, they reflect StenoTran 156 1 the diversity of the population, not just cultural 2 diversity but also the diversity of sexual orientations 3 and the diversities of families, single families, same 4 sex families, families comprised of friends. 5 780 I think it is important to note that. 6 781 Finally, in defence of the CBC, I 7 have listened to the same programs about which they 8 were commenting and am rather horrified to think that 9 the they thought the reporting was not objective or 10 that the commentary was not objective, particularly on 11 that Alberta Report program where the persons who 12 perhaps were reflected in a bad light at the end of the 13 day were given plenty of opportunity to express their 14 views, and did so articulately. I don't think they 15 were badly edited. 16 782 Thank you. 17 783 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have heard a 18 number of comments about this discussion we have had 19 regarding funding, and I am curious to know what 20 message you would want us to leave here with in terms 21 of our regulatory role relative to the CBC. 22 784 Would it only be that we should 23 impress upon the government the importance of funding? 24 785 I must say I was quite struck today 25 by the comments that we have heard in that most of StenoTran 157 1 them -- if I had to pick a number on a percentage, 2 probably 80 per cent of the comments related to radio 3 and radio's importance as a local medium for local 4 expression and local understanding. 5 786 There were not a lot of comments 6 about television; a few, somewhat related to alleged 7 bias in programming. 8 787 There were a number of comments about 9 the importance of programming reflecting Canada and 10 Canadians. But the programs that were largely referred 11 to were programs like "22 Minutes" and "Pit Pony", and 12 other programs which are largely seen on the national 13 network. 14 788 I am curious to know what you think 15 we should be doing from a regulatory point of view with 16 respect to radio in terms of local expression and local 17 reflection on CBC radio. 18 789 I will get to the CBC folks to 19 comment, but I want to get the views around the table 20 first. 21 790 Mr. Papazian? 22 791 MR. PAPAZIAN: You are soliciting 23 comments as it pertains to radio in terms of regulatory 24 responsibilities. 25 792 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. StenoTran 158 1 793 MR. PAPAZIAN: I think most of the 2 comments that we have made today with regard to 3 radio -- and I think radio is predominant here because 4 it is an important thing for a quasi-rural type area -- 5 with no offence to the Sydney people. Radio becomes 6 very necessary. 7 794 I am at a loss. Are you asking me 8 should the radio start running commercials? 9 795 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, no. What I am 10 struck with is (a) the emphasis on radio, and within 11 radio the emphasis on local. 12 796 We often hear debate in this whole 13 issue about television and local expression. 14 797 MR. PAPAZIAN: Right. 15 798 THE CHAIRPERSON: It seems to me that 16 today we have heard very little reference to 17 television, and what reference we have heard has been 18 to programs that are largely on the national network. 19 Most of the concern seems to be about radio. 20 799 Would I take it that people are 21 satisfied with CBC radio and how it operates, setting 22 aside the current problems; that we know there are 23 problems with some of the programming come from Halifax 24 to serve the region as a result of the strike right 25 now. StenoTran 159 1 800 Would it be fair to say that people 2 are pretty satisfied with radio and the way it serves 3 local needs? 4 801 MR. PAPAZIAN: Could I say probably? 5 And could I also offer perhaps if people didn't speak 6 so much about television, or at least not in the same 7 way as they speak about radio, it is because radio is 8 still a wholly public broadcast service. 9 802 Television is one foot in the private 10 sector and one foot out in some ways, isn't it? It 11 solicits -- and fair play to it, and so on. 12 803 The point is they are very distinctly 13 different mediums, not to mention that one is a 14 listening and the other is a viewing. 15 804 I will just say yes, I am pleased. 16 As I said in my brief, they are doing what they can 17 with the money they have. It is the death by a 18 thousand cuts. It is going to happen. There is going 19 to be a slow bleed to death. 20 805 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Bird. 21 806 MR. BIRD: Could I put it this way. 22 we had of course, I don't remember how many years ago 23 but not that long ago, a local television service right 24 here in Sydney. It has gone. Frankly, I don't think 25 it has been much missed. StenoTran 160 1 807 But I do -- 2 808 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is really what 3 was at the root of my question. 4 809 MR. BIRD: I beg your pardon? 5 810 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is really what 6 was at the root of my question. It doesn't seem like 7 people are missing it. 8 811 MR. BIRD: Right. But I think on the 9 other hand if we lost our radio local broadcast, that 10 would be severely missed because this means a great 11 deal to this community. 12 812 My concern is, among other things, 13 the way things are going we might just lose that as 14 well. To me, that would be a tragedy. 15 813 I guess what I am asking the CRTC to 16 do, if it is possible, if it is within your scope, to 17 plug the fact that we don't want any further erosion of 18 the CBC radio service. 19 814 It is not a question of money. It is 20 a question of losing it. 21 815 THE CHAIRPERSON: Within the budget 22 that it has, do you think the CBC should be focusing on 23 its existing radio and television services? 24 816 MR. BIRD: It would be very selfish 25 of me to say so; but, yes. StenoTran 161 1 817 THE CHAIRPERSON: Dr. MacNeil. 2 818 MS MacNEIL: I wanted to make a 3 comment that in my presentation I did not do very much 4 distinguishing between radio and television. I was 5 trying to hold to the CBC mandate. 6 819 It is true -- and I made a point 7 about the cultural interpretation and the fact that it 8 would be desirable to have more -- 9 820 We are doing a great job regionally, 10 I think, but it would be desirable as well to have 11 access to what others are doing in their regions. 12 Sometimes for those who are able to hear radio in the 13 morning, you do get that -- by radio in the morning, I 14 mean between 9:00 and noon. You do get a bit of that 15 switching across the country. 16 821 But unless you can catch that and a 17 little bit in the afternoon, in the ordinary work day 18 unfortunately is when there is a lot of that; not so 19 much at all in the evenings, and certainly not much at 20 all in terms of television. 21 822 If I were looking at television as it 22 now is, from the little I know of it -- and you must 23 remember that I am the one who said we couldn't see it 24 for years -- I don't think there is much to save there 25 any more, from my interest standpoint, mainly because StenoTran 162 1 of the commercialization. 2 823 I don't want it to stay that way. I 3 want it to improve. I want it to be a channel for 4 cultural presentations and for getting to know Canada 5 better. I don't want it to stay the way it is, nor do 6 I want it to increase commercially. 7 824 I guess if we can't do it by paying 8 for it directly or at least by not increasing 9 commercialization any further, then perhaps we should 10 consider not doing it at all. I am speaking of 11 television now. 12 825 THE CHAIRPERSON: You would not do 13 television at all? 14 826 MS MacNEIL: I am saying under those 15 conditions. It is very irritating watching a lot of 16 television with commercials when you have just a few 17 hours in your day when you finally sit down to do that. 18 It becomes an irritant. 19 827 If it is not telling me about Canada 20 and the kinds of things that I really value in the 21 mandate, then I am not really very interested. I can 22 turn just as easily to something else. 23 828 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is it your view 24 that you find the commercials themselves irritating or 25 you feel that the strive for commercial revenue is StenoTran 163 1 influencing the nature of the programming? 2 829 MS MacNEIL: I would say yes to both 3 of those. 4 830 MS CITRIGNO: I just want to comment 5 on your question about radio versus television. 6 831 For me personally, I prefer radio, so 7 that is why I talked about it. I think for people in 8 communities, they might really appreciate having 9 television closer to them, but it is not really an 10 option. 11 832 I have lived in four different 12 Canadian communities and only one of them, Halifax, was 13 large enough to support local television. I don't 14 think it would be fair to say that because people 15 didn't talk about local television here that means that 16 they don't miss it. I believe to produce television 17 takes so much more money, to produce good television 18 versus good radio in terms of the equipment and the 19 qualified people in terms of technical positions 20 involved, that it is really difficult to support 21 community television. 22 833 I think there probably could be a lot 23 of interest in it if the resources were available. 24 834 All the questions we have had since 25 the presentations stopped have revolved around the StenoTran 164 1 question of funding, and I find it very difficult to 2 address that. 3 835 THE CHAIRPERSON: So do we. 4 836 MS CITRIGNO: You mentioned my 5 comments that I would like to see different 6 programming. Of course, to a certain extent it depends 7 on funding. 8 837 It is really difficult to give 9 positive suggestions about that. I think more could be 10 done, but I think with the funding that is available -- 11 you know, you don't even like to go down that road, 12 because you are not supporting the people who are 13 professionals and deserve to be reimbursed for their 14 professional capacity by implying that more could be 15 done with less. 16 838 So I really don't know how to make 17 positive suggestions. Just the thing about television, 18 I am sure more people would be interested in it if it 19 was available. But with no money, it is even harder to 20 do than radio. 21 839 THE CHAIRPERSON: I didn't mean to 22 imply by my question that I thought people didn't think 23 television was important. It is just that I was struck 24 by more that radio was seen as being the means of being 25 the real local reflection rather than television. StenoTran 165 1 840 Mr. MacKay and then Ms Cusack. 2 841 MR. MacKAY: I might just mention 3 when radio first came to CBC Sydney it was over a 4 market area on Charlotte Street. I think we did a 5 reasonably good job there. 6 842 But then when television came, just 7 prior to Canada's Centennial -- about 1964 or 1965, I 8 think -- they built a beautiful building up on 9 Alexander Street. Television was the big thing then 10 and radio sort of took the background, in that when 11 they needed more space, they said: "What can we get 12 rid of?" The grand piano was the first thing that 13 went. 14 843 When we did a lot of productions, we 15 had a 32-board mixer there, and we did a lot of things 16 of that nature. 17 844 Now with television in the demise, 18 radio is coming back. But I am afraid it will be a 19 long time coming back to the way it was. Hopefully, it 20 will some day come back to its former glory. 21 845 Thank you. 22 846 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cusack. 23 847 MS CUSACK: I think the reason why 24 you hear so much less about television around this 25 table is simply the fact I was just discussing with StenoTran 166 1 Theresa that we did lose our local CBC station in terms 2 of any programming in 1990. It had been considerably 3 diluted throughout the 1980s, so that there is perhaps 4 less hope that we would be able to ever regain that 5 than there is that we can at least preserve and perhaps 6 improve upon what we have in terms of local radio 7 programming. I think that is why you heard so much. 8 848 In terms of the importance of CBC 9 television, in my presentation I referred to the 10 Friends of Canadian Broadcasting report that is on the 11 Internet in respect of Canadian local television 12 service. 13 849 Although that report reflects on 14 service in the west, specifically Winnipeg, it contains 15 a wealth of statistical information and important 16 commentary on this issue. Again, I would emphasize 17 that if you were to take a poll of the people who have 18 spoken this afternoon specifically about television, 19 there would be a great deal of interest in restoring 20 good quality local and regional programming and 21 enhancing it. 22 850 I agree absolutely with Theresa 23 MacNeil about the folly of continuing to commercialize 24 CBC TV. It distracts a person from the programming, 25 and it is much easier to flip off when you have to StenoTran 167 1 listen, or watch, endure, two or three or four or five 2 or six commercials in a row in the midst of a program. 3 851 Of course, as you know, "This Hour 4 Has 22 Minutes" plays upon that whole issue of the 5 disruption of programming time by advertisements. 6 852 I think it is very important that we 7 promote, that you promote to Paul Martin and whoever 8 else might in future be the Minister, that it is 9 extremely important that funding be restored. 10 853 Whether the statistics I heard 11 earlier of $5 per capita, or another one I heard 12 whispered to me of $28 and something per capita 13 funding, that funding is obviously not adequate at this 14 time. If the institution of the CBC, both television 15 and radio, is so important, then I think it is worth 16 considering an increase in that per capita funding. 17 854 Thank you. 18 855 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr. 19 Peters. 20 856 MR. PETERS: You are asking about 21 radio and TV. I would like to mention that in this 22 area we are incredibly lucky to have Ian MacNeil -- he 23 was here; he just left -- as our "Morning Show" host 24 and Kostas Salibrasos at the noon hour and the "Phone 25 In" from 1:00 to 2:00. It is incredible how current StenoTran 168 1 the subjects are on those programs and how enlightening 2 they are. 3 857 To address the funding problem, I 4 would not mind seeing less money spent on TV and more 5 on radio. At least you can listen to radio while you 6 work; but if you have to watch TV, you have to sit 7 there and do nothing. 8 858 Thank you. 9 859 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sir. 10 860 MR. GAUDET: It is in reference to 11 Mr. Langford's question regarding funding and how the 12 CRTC is going to handle situations. Of course, the 13 name Paul Martin was brought up, and so on. 14 861 Without getting too political about 15 it, Theresa MacNeill also mentioned that in 1991 in the 16 Parliamentary Act, in order for them to lay down a 17 certain mandate -- I should not say a mandate, but 18 certain criteria that went down. Does that not in turn 19 also mean that the CBC has to mandate certain funds to 20 keep up certain Canadian content rulings? 21 862 I know this is a question. 22 863 I really do think the funds are 23 there, and I am sure it is purely political. I want to 24 throw this back to you. 25 864 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I will do my StenoTran 169 1 best, and I am certainly glad we have a lawyer with us. 2 865 The problem -- 3 866 THE CHAIRPERSON: He is a lawyer too, 4 by the way. 5 867 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am a 6 recovering lawyer. 7 868 One of the problems when you are 8 dealing with documents like the Broadcasting Act is 9 that the words in them are open to a myriad of 10 interpretations. Ms MacNeil's definition of distinctly 11 Canadian and serving the mandate laid out there may 12 differ very much from the Finance Department's, and yet 13 both may be valid interpretations. We are getting into 14 some areas that are open to a good deal of differing 15 views and even some subjective viewing. 16 869 So it does become very, very 17 difficult for the CRTC, for the 12 of us, to sit and 18 say: "Those words in that statute mean this and only 19 this, and therefore they require this many dollars." 20 870 That is a road down which even J.J. 21 Robinette in the height of his powers could not have 22 taken us. That is a tough interpretation to make of a 23 statute like that. 24 871 I can understand the frustration 25 behind your question, but I think it probably will StenoTran 170 1 remain a frustration. I don't think that anyone in 2 this room, and perhaps even anyone in the country could 3 make that fine an interpretation of that piece of 4 legislation and costing that would then go along with 5 it. 6 872 MR. GAUDET: Just a quick follow-up. 7 Can we rely on you people, your particular commission, 8 the CRTC, to push on our behalf? 9 873 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: We can't come 10 here as your advocates, but we have gone to the trouble 11 of coming here. That must tell you something. We are 12 here to listen to you, and we are here to bring back 13 your message, to save you the expense of going to 14 Ottawa. 15 874 I think it is more fiscally 16 responsible for two of us to come to you than all of 17 you to come to us. 18 875 So yes, we are here. We are here to 19 listen to you, and we intend to bring your messages 20 back. That is why we came. 21 876 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Verrill and then 22 Mr. MacDonald. 23 877 MS VERRILL: I want to talk about 24 television and the role that the regional TV broadcast 25 centre plays in Halifax. StenoTran 171 1 878 I think if those hearings had been 2 there, you would have heard a lot more bout the role 3 that CBC television plays and its importance to that 4 community. 5 879 Maybe one of the reasons why it is 6 also not talked about so much here is that sometimes I 7 think it is hard to really know exactly all the things 8 that CBC TV does that don't really show up as programs 9 on air. 10 880 Because of the growing film industry 11 which is based there, the regional office of CBC is a 12 fairly important part of that ongoing community of work 13 that is being developed. I just wanted to put in a 14 little plug in defence of that office. 15 881 The fear is that the way things are 16 going, if cuts come, it will be the regions that will 17 get it and primarily in television. So I don't think 18 that is a good idea. 19 882 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. MacDonald. 20 883 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you. My 21 remarks will dovetail quite nicely into your past 22 remarks. 23 884 When we talk about CBC television in 24 Nova Scotia, I think there is somewhat of a conflict 25 because the only place that does the programming is in StenoTran 172 1 Halifax, and it is getting to the point where about 50 2 per cent of the Nova Scotia population is in metro 3 Halifax. What I see as the conflict is the mission to 4 serve that great majority of your audience as opposed 5 to the mission to go out into the hinterlands, if you 6 want to call it. I guess that brings us to a real 7 appreciation of having CBC radio here and the abilities 8 to work. 9 885 I don't know how you resolve that 10 short of more resources. On the television point of 11 view, I think the CBC supper news hour is very well 12 watched, even here in Cape Breton. It is hour-long as 13 opposed to half an hour for the other competitors, and 14 it seems to be much more -- I don't know if it is 15 public broadcasting oriented. 16 886 I think there is a bias towards 17 Halifax. I will cite an example. There is a major 18 employer in rural Cape Breton that in December of 1994 19 announced a world-class construction project; the 20 largest investment ever in Nova Scotia, $750 million, 21 and at the time probably the biggest construction 22 project in Canada. I just happened to be in my 23 apartment looking at the CBC news, and it was the third 24 item on the news out of Halifax. 25 887 The impact of that, I have kind of StenoTran 173 1 never quite forgotten: whoever decides what gets on the 2 news and what number it is. That was a huge, huge 3 story for us in rural Nova Scotia, in rural Cape Breton 4 at least. There is a conflict there, and I don't know 5 how you resolve it short of more resources. 6 888 I think the message that the CRTC 7 brings back is that when you have world-class 8 organizations, especially on the radio side, work on 9 it, build on it and make it better. 10 889 Thank you. 11 890 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 12 MacDonald. 13 891 I am going to turn to the CBC to 14 respond to all the comments they have heard here 15 through the day, but I want to make a final comment on 16 this funding issue. 17 892 Mr. Mattocks and the CBC people here 18 have certainly heard the concerns about funding and can 19 echo those pleas back to Ottawa, and so can we. But I 20 guess the struggle for us from a regulatory point of 21 view, and for the CBC folks from an operational point 22 of view, is: Given that that is the budget we have, 23 how do we best manage that allocation to serve the 24 needs of the people of Canada, to serve the needs that 25 are expressed here today for local programming in radio StenoTran 174 1 and for more French programming that reflects this 2 region, this community, better? 3 893 That is what we are wrestling with, 4 it seems to me. 5 REPLY / RÉPLIQUE 6 894 MS MITTON: Thank you. I am Susan 7 Mitton. I am the Regional Director of radio, and I 8 have a couple of general comments before I wade back 9 into the constellation of services, because really it 10 is the future you folks are trying to struggle with. 11 We are too, and I think we can all learn from each 12 other in this. 13 895 I would like to thank the CRTC for 14 making the wise decision to come to Sydney. We were 15 part of the group that first thought "too bad they 16 aren't going to come to Halifax". I now see the wisdom 17 of that. this is an area of the country that we don't 18 hear enough from in the national scope, in my view. We 19 do regionally, we do locally; but I think it is 20 wonderful that you have made the effort to visit 21 communities that often are not heard from. I 22 appreciate that very much. 23 896 We have seen this exercise this 24 afternoon, as we will for the next three days in the 25 Maritimes, as a real privilege. For us, this is a StenoTran 175 1 massive focus group on what our listeners and viewers 2 really think of us, and it is on somebody else's hook. 3 So we just love it. 4 897 This gives us feedback that is 5 golden. It is wonderful to hear that we are doing some 6 things right. We are struggling and doing our best; 7 we've all got that right. But also the criticisms that 8 we have heard today, we are not going to answer every 9 single one of them, but we will be taking these 10 concerns back and actually in some format trying at a 11 later date to feed back on some of the points to the 12 CRTC. 13 898 We have taken note of people's names, 14 so if we can get back to you on specific questions you 15 have asked or raised, or complaints you have had, we 16 are going to try to do that. 17 899 I do want to tell you, Mr. Langford, 18 that we do in fact charge rent. It is not a freebie 19 entirely. It is with what they can bear. So we are 20 putting that into regional programming. 21 900 That is one point I wanted to 22 mention. 23 901 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You might 24 want to think of lowering it. These people are doing 25 good work. StenoTran 176 1 902 MS MITTON: We will consider it. 2 903 The transmission issue I am not going 3 to duck, because it is a huge one here in Cape Breton. 4 But Fred Mattocks, who is the Director of Television, 5 ironically was ten years ago one of the managers left 6 in the Sydney operation when it was both radio and TV. 7 He has actually got a tech background and better to 8 answer that question. 9 904 I think it is worth a few comments, 10 because it was an issue that was certainly raised 11 around here. 12 905 Dr. MacNeil mentioned the morale 13 issue. I have to say that these hearings for the 14 people at the CBC -- and there are many colleagues 15 here, both from CEP, CMG. Ian MacNeil just left and 16 John Chessil is in fact the non-manager leader as such 17 of the Sydney station and does an incredible job. 18 906 We are all here for keen interest in 19 hearing what you have to say. 20 907 There were issues raised around why 21 do we have the "Mainstreets" across the country all 22 sounding the same; why don't you have more open book 23 management in an accounting system. 24 908 In fact, a lot of those things are 25 being looked at and evolving, and the open accounting StenoTran 177 1 system under an acronym called SAP is coming. It is 2 partly driven by the year 2000 and our arcane finance 3 systems are being updated. 4 909 There are a lot of operational issues 5 that were raised today, and I don't dismiss them. We 6 will answer them. But they are a bit of housekeeping. 7 910 What I see as the challenge forward 8 is an issue that was raised towards the end of the 9 discussion. It has to do with constellation of 10 services. 11 911 I don't pretend to have all the 12 answers here, but I wanted to just lay something on the 13 table because it is important to the future. 14 912 What I understand the CBC is 15 struggling with is a situation where the youth -- and I 16 think the CKDU lady, and I apologize for not having my 17 list here -- mentioned that a lot of us are grey-haired 18 around here. 19 913 It used to be in radio that when you 20 turned 30 you got smart and found the signal. But I 21 have kids, and those of you who do will appreciate that 22 that is not necessarily going to happen, for a bunch of 23 reasons. New technology in the year 2000 is coming on 24 faster than we can possibly imagine. 25 914 So aside from the web and the use of StenoTran 178 1 Internet which is growing, a challenge to us is saying: 2 We have the mandate and spoken word as to what the CBC 3 as a public broadcaster should be doing. How best do 4 we do that? 5 915 What we have envisaged is in fact a 6 constellation of services. In radio terms, it means 7 Radio One, which is basically an information service; 8 Radio Two, which is basically a classical service. 9 916 Right now, there is a bit of a 10 hodge-podge, because under our mandate we are to serve 11 all canadians. So at night you get something like 12 Brave New Waves, which drives some people round the 13 bend. So we are thinking of ways of extracting that 14 and building a service for perhaps youth, which are now 15 not being served. And it is our mandate to serve all 16 Canadians. 17 917 Youth is not being served. So you 18 will start hearing something about a Radio Three. 19 918 With the web, what we are doing -- 20 and we are doing this in Halifax now. It is automated, 21 so that we take a newscast and post it directly to the 22 web. We have through radio, television, French and 23 English, an incredible mass of information that is 24 being put and worked on every day across this country. 25 We are trying to see if we can value add to that by StenoTran 179 1 making it available on other services that other parts 2 of the population either want to use, do use or will 3 use. 4 919 We have Radio One, radio two routed 5 in the regions, and this is right in our internal 6 vision and mandate, and part of a constellation of 7 services. We currently have Galaxy. We are building 8 the web on a daily basis. We are thinking of other 9 services. 10 920 In television -- and Fred can talk a 11 bit to this -- the same kind of thing is happening. 12 921 It is going to be a learning curve, 13 and there are concerns about it. What are you 14 stripping to do this? How are you going to grow this? 15 922 Our problem and our challenge is: If 16 we don't, we're dead. That is what we feel; that we 17 will stop and not grow and not bring new Canadians on 18 or young Canadians, or enough different points of view 19 in a user-friendly environment with all different 20 mediums. 21 923 I am speaking too quickly, I know, 22 but I am passionate about it, and struggling with it at 23 the same time, as I think we all are. 24 924 I will stop my comments there. 25 Perhaps, Fred, you can do the transmission dance and StenoTran 180 1 also pick up on the constellation a bit. 2 925 MR. MATTOCKS: The transmission 3 problem in Cape Breton is similar to the transmission 4 problem in a number of parts of the country. It is 5 particularly bad here, because people value the service 6 so highly. 7 926 It is rooted in basic physics. 8 That's the problem. CBC has been struggling with it 9 for years. CBC is restricted by policy from spending 10 money on areas which are deemed served, which means 11 that they have a signal. And that results in some 12 silly, actually, situations. 13 927 We have a classic in Cumberland 14 County in Nova Scotia where people don't receive an off 15 the air signal from CBC Halifax or CBC Nova Scotia. 16 They receive one from PEI and New Brunswick. As a 17 result, they don't get their own political news, and so 18 on. 19 928 We seem to be powerless as a company 20 to do anything about it directly. I am happy to report 21 in Cumberland County we have found an indirect solution 22 with the participation of the local cable company. 23 929 Here in Cape Breton, in the time I 24 was here, we were putting drop-in transmitters that Ray 25 referred to in a number of areas. But the terrain is StenoTran 181 1 such that you can put a transmitter in, as we did in 2 Middle River, and you can drive two miles outside of 3 town and you can find a person in a house who does not 4 get the signal. 5 930 I don't know what the solution is. I 6 really would like to espouse your view of the world, 7 Mr. Papazian, that everybody should have the signal, 8 because I agree with you. The question is: At what 9 price can we do that? Right now the technology is not 10 in a place where we can do it cost-effectively. 11 931 Maybe I could talk about television 12 for a minute. 13 932 I dreaded this hearing, for just the 14 reason that I figured we would have a whole bunch of 15 people who loved radio and could not care less if there 16 was CBC television or saw television as some sort of a 17 parasite threatening radio's existence. That seems to 18 be the shape of the discussion whenever we get people 19 to talk about the CBC. I think that is unfortunate, 20 because they are two very different beasts. They have 21 the same mandate; they have the same service goals. 22 But they operate in different ways; they have different 23 economies. 24 933 In fact, the people who watch and use 25 them watch them and use them in different ways. StenoTran 182 1 934 If you look, as we have done, at 2 television and radio users and look at how many people 3 who listen to "Information Morning" watch the supper 4 hour news. What you find is that the duplication 5 between those two audiences is very low. It is less 6 than 25 per cent. 7 935 There is a fundamental message there: 8 People who like radio like radio; people who like 9 television like television. 10 936 Our television service in this region 11 is actually, I think, one of the most successful in the 12 country. We have roughly 100,000 Nova Scotians 13 watching our provincial "Supper Hour", and that 14 includes a significant number of Cape Bretoners. 15 937 When the Cape Breton "Supper Hour" 16 was cancelled in 1990 due to the cuts, that was a 17 tragedy. It was a tragedy for this community, and I 18 agree with that. The fact is that the audiences did 19 not dip appreciably. 20 938 I think when people say it was not 21 missed, I disagree with that; I think it was missed. 22 but the fact is that the service was still there. 23 939 We just did a survey of our content 24 on our news program, and over 25 per cent of the news 25 material in the last year comes from Cape Breton, from StenoTran 183 1 our Cape Breton bureau here. 2 940 We are doing what we can do in terms 3 of programming to reflect this island and its events 4 and its stories. 5 941 When "Land and Sea" was on the air, 6 we had over 100,000 Maritimers watching it every week. 7 It is not on the air, predictably, at this point; but 8 it still lives on, and when it does, we get lots of 9 audience response to it as well. 10 942 In terms of the cultural story, 11 everybody has talked about our success story in 12 bringing our performers to the national stage, which we 13 are very proud of. That actually all started 14 regionally. The ECMA started out as a regional 15 project, for instance, not a national one. We used to 16 have a saying that we didn't know that we had a program 17 concept just right until the network had turned it down 18 twice, because the third time they picked it up. That 19 seemed to be the history. 20 943 All I can say about television is 21 that it is a different beast than radio. We are 22 working very hard at it. We are trying to find ways to 23 minimize the impacts of our budget realities by things 24 like partnerships with Anne's group and her colleagues, 25 with Visual Artists, with other unconventional StenoTran 184 1 partnerships. 2 944 The Art Spots project that the arts 3 person talked about is a partnership of the Canada 4 Council for the Arts, for instance, which is a new 5 thing for us. 6 945 THE CHAIRPERSON: Dr. MacNeil, I am 7 mindful in acknowledging your hand that some of us have 8 until 6 o'clock to come back here. 9 946 MS MacNEIL: I just want to ask one 10 question about how you would answer David Colville's 11 question about television. I am not very happy about 12 the way I handled it, but I am concerned about the 13 commercialization being an anathema. 14 947 If you would touch on that for a 15 moment, I would appreciate it. 16 948 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 17 949 MR. MATTOCKS: I understand the 18 concern absolutely. It is one that we live with as 19 well, both as an organization which, in terms of its 20 journalistic programming, prides our independence and 21 prides both journalistic policy, which is one of the 22 strongest and best defined in the world in terms of 23 broadcasters, in terms of our mandate and the 24 Broadcasting Act which sets it up; but also in terms of 25 the kinds of programs that we provide. StenoTran 185 1 950 It is a fact that an astonishing 2 amount of our discretionary money in television comes 3 from commercial revenue. It is over 50 per cent. 4 951 Having said that, I think that our 5 real struggle in terms of finding a place in Canadians' 6 homes with our television services is a struggle for 7 relevance. The jargon for this discussion is the PBS 8 north argument. 9 952 We believe that if we don't appear on 10 a regular basis in the lives of a significant number of 11 Canadians, then Canadians won't be willing to pay for 12 us any more. So how do you do that becomes the 13 conundrum. 14 953 Commercials are a fact of life in 15 that what they do for us at this point in time is they 16 enable us to maintain a level of production in 17 programming. 18 954 I don't think -- as a matter of fact, 19 I am pretty sure that fundamental decisions that are 20 driven at the network about audience and program 21 selection for audience are not driven as much by 22 commercial revenue, although that is a factor, as by 23 the issue of: How many Canadians are watching us this 24 week? 25 955 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very StenoTran 186 1 much. 2 956 I want to thank all of you who are 3 here and, I guess through the transcript, those who 4 have left. I think we have had an excellent afternoon 5 and a lot of very thoughtful presentations. All of the 6 presentations were very thoughtful and helpful to us in 7 our deliberations and I am sure the CBC in 8 understanding better what Canadians are expecting from 9 the service. 10 957 We will adjourn now. Some of us will 11 try to grab a quick bite to eat and come back at 6 12 o'clock to hear some more views. 13 --- Recess at 1715 / Suspension à 1715 14 --- Upon resuming at 1815 / Reprise à 1815 15 958 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good evening, 16 ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to this public 17 consultation on the CBC. 18 959 My name is David Colville and I am 19 the Vice-Chair of the CRTC Telecommunications Division. 20 With me today is my fellow Commissioner, Stuart 21 Langford. 22 960 We are here to gather your views and 23 comments on CBC radio and television. We want to know, 24 in your opinion, how the Canadian Broadcasting 25 Corporation should fulfil its role in the coming years. StenoTran 187 1 961 The CBC is a national public service 2 broadcasting in English as well as in French. It plays 3 an important role in the Canadian broadcasting system. 4 Today, many elements are constantly being added to the 5 broadcasting system as new technologies multiply, 6 converge, open up new horizons, and increasingly offer 7 new services. 8 962 In this context, we want to know your 9 needs and expectations as viewers and listeners of the 10 CBC. 11 963 Given that, it is very important that 12 the Commission hears what you have to say. We must not 13 lose sight of the fact that the CRTC itself is a public 14 institution that serves Canadian citizens, and in this 15 capacity we are responsible to you. 16 964 This is why my fellow Commissioners 17 and myself find it vital to come and meet with you to 18 discuss these issues and why we are holding this series 19 of regional consultations from one end of the country 20 to the other, in 11 Canadian cities, from March 9th to 21 the 18th. 22 965 These consultations are designed to 23 give you a chance to express your opinion on the CBC's 24 role, the programming it offers, and the direction it 25 should take at the national, regional and local levels. StenoTran 188 1 Through these consultations, we hope to enter into an 2 open dialogue with you and to hear your concerns. 3 966 Your comments will form part of the 4 public record, which will be added to the record of the 5 public hearing on the CBC's licence renewal that will 6 begin in Hull next May 25th. At that hearing the 7 Commission will examine the CBC's application for the 8 renewal of its licences, including radio, television 9 and its specialty services Newsworld and Réseau de 10 l'information. 11 967 You can also take part in that public 12 hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 13 If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the 14 specific licence renewals being examined when you file 15 your comments. 16 968 Now I would like to come back to 17 today's consultations. 18 969 Allow me to introduce the staff who 19 will be assisting us today: Mr. Alastair Stewart, our 20 legal counsel; and Mr. Brien Rodger, the Director of 21 our Halifax Regional Office. 22 970 Please feel free to call on them with 23 any questions you might have about the process today. 24 971 So that you will all have an 25 opportunity to speak, we ask that you please limit your StenoTran 189 1 presentation to ten minutes. As these consultations 2 are a forum designed especially for you, and we want to 3 listen to as many participants as possible -- 4 972 My notes say we will not ask you any 5 questions, but I just want to say that we are not here 6 to embarrass anybody but we may have a few questions of 7 clarification and may want to enter into a discussion 8 later on, as we did this afternoon. We gave an 9 opportunity for everybody to make their presentation, 10 and after everyone was heard from we opened it up to a 11 bit of a discussion around some of the issues at the 12 end. 13 973 If you want to do that, you are 14 certainly welcome to stay. If not, we will thank you 15 for your presentation in any event. 16 974 At the end of the session, 17 representatives from the local CBC stations will have a 18 chance to offer their views and comments on what they 19 have heard through the day. 20 975 Before I start, I will turn it over 21 to Mr. Stewart to go over some of the housekeeping 22 matters, and then we will turn to our first presenter. 23 1820 24 976 MR. STEWART: Thank you very much, 25 Commissioner Colville. StenoTran 190 1 977 I will invite each person who is 2 registered to make his or her presentation in the order 3 of the list that has been established. I would ask you 4 to press the white button in front of the microphone so 5 that your comments may be transcribed and form part of 6 the public record. 7 978 Once you are finished your 8 presentation, would you be good enough to press the 9 white again to turn the system off. 10 979 For those who need translation, there 11 are headsets available from the gentleman to my left. 12 980 Those are all of the housekeeping 13 items I wish to bring to your attention. 14 981 With your permission, Commissioner 15 Colville, I will ask the first presenter to come 16 forward to give his presentation. 17 982 That is Mr. James St. Clair. 18 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 19 983 MR. ST. CLAIR: Ladies and gentlemen: 20 Tha mir gle thollite gu faicainn thu (I am pleased to 21 see you all). Tha mi a breann Gaidlig beagan (I am 22 speaking a little gaelic). Ceud mile failte (100,000 23 welcomes). Ciamur tha thu a nochd? (How are you 24 tonight?) 25 984 CRTC -- Celtic Tracking Radio StenoTran 191 1 Corporation, are you here anywhere? 2 985 Well, gentlemen -- 3 986 THE CHAIRPERSON: I got the part 4 about 100,000 welcomes. 5 987 MR. ST. CLAIR: If you were to be 6 here tomorrow morning and things were normal, I would 7 have an opportunity, as a freelance broadcaster and 8 writer, to share with you a bit more of the culture and 9 heritage of Cape Breton Island. 10 988 Cape Breton is a very beautiful 11 island. 12 989 Gallia est omnis divisa in partes 13 tres. As you may recall from your grade 10 or 11 14 Latin, all of Gaul is divided into three parts. 15 990 Insula Cape Bretonea omnis in partes 16 octo; not four, not five, not six, not seven, but at 17 least eight listening areas. And yet this island is 18 only a little over 100 miles long and, at the most, if 19 we include Port Hood Island and Scaterie, 53 and a half 20 miles wide. 21 991 I come particularly with a brief from 22 the Inverness County Council of the Arts. 23 992 Inverness County is that portion of 24 this island known as "on the other side of the 25 mountain". We are the people who travel to hearings. StenoTran 192 1 Some of us, Mr. MacNeil and I, travel to work on the 2 CBC over mountains and through valleys. We have 3 learned to be extremely dexterous. When I leave home 4 in Mull River in the morning to come to Sydney, after 5 having gotten the weather report from Mr. MacNeil and 6 the road report, I am able to hear CBC Moncton. And 7 then after I have gone five miles, I hear CBC Halifax 8 through a transmitter in Mulgrave across the causeway. 9 Once I reach Sky Glen, I am able to hear no CBC at all, 10 except what resounds in my head. 11 993 But then once I reach Whycocomagh, I 12 am happy to say that well at least I am able to hear 13 CBC Radio One upon occasion. 14 994 In Mull River where I live, on the 15 west side of the island, you will note that I say I 16 cannot get CBC AM. I get CBC Radio One very well, and 17 on a Saturday afternoon, if I stand on my head in the 18 attic and tip my brand new radio upside down and point 19 the aerial in the direction of Edinburgh, Scotland, I 20 may get almost all of Il Trovatore, although last 21 Saturday afternoon I lost it at the crucial time of the 22 Anvil Chorus, so I have no idea how the drama 23 concluded. 24 995 I am hoping that maybe next 25 Saturday -- oh, no, it isn't a continuing series, is StenoTran 193 1 it. 2 996 Gentlemen, we are submitting on 3 behalf of the Inverness County Council of the Arts a 4 report with the hope that it will encourage you to 5 examine the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation's 6 transmittal service on this island. 7 997 As the national radio broadcaster, 8 CBC has a mandate to ensure that radio and television 9 reception is of good quality in rural areas. In your 10 packet, we have also included a document relating to 11 rural culture and technology, which may be of some 12 interest to you. 13 998 In Inverness County, we consider CBC 14 broadcasting to be our lifeline. We have been hungry 15 for the last two and a half weeks, emaciated almost, as 16 we have had to listen to such indignities as -- well, I 17 won't name those on the mainland. 18 999 This is our lifeline to cultural 19 activity within our county and beyond, but we find that 20 this lifeline is not available in many of our homes: 21 Gaelic speaking, French speaking, English speaking, 22 Dutch speaking, Inverness County speaking -- whatever 23 the language. 24 1000 I have to point out that in rural 25 areas such as ours special conditions do exist which StenoTran 194 1 limit our exposure to cultural activities. We are 2 isolated due to distance from major centres of 3 activity, poor weather conditions, and the inevitable 4 travel costs that must be incurred to take us to 5 cultural events. And yet somehow or other we have been 6 able to spawn things such as an Inverness County 7 Council of the Arts, the Rankins, Buddy McMaster, 8 Natalie, an extraordinarily fine singing group from 9 Cheticamp, of young singers that are going around the 10 world. 11 1001 We feel that we have something very 12 special in our soil. 13 1002 My Livingston ancestors, when they 14 came from Scotland, settled in Inverness County because 15 they felt the ground there had the magic that they 16 hadn't known since they left Scotland. And they stayed 17 there. 18 1003 Some people think that is why they 19 were such good step dancers; there was electricity in 20 the ground. 21 1004 We find that CBC broadcasting 22 alleviates our isolation. We have a rich cultural 23 community. A lot of CBC programming includes 24 interviews and performances by our own local artists. 25 Oftentimes, we can't hear them. StenoTran 195 1 1005 My own relatives and friends whose 2 family and ancestors and communities are oftentimes the 3 subjects of my own CBC broadcasts over the last two 4 decades can hear only what is said about their people 5 through tape. 6 1006 The audiovisual window to the world 7 which we perceive CBC programming to be is crucial in 8 the continuing cultural development of our county, and 9 I have to say that it is a primary need in these very 10 difficult and demanding economic times on this island. 11 We have no other major link connecting us than CBC. 12 1007 We feel we need to hear it. 13 1008 Given the findings in our report, CBC 14 is failing to fulfil its role on a regional level. It 15 is fine for the people who live in Sydney and even fine 16 for those who live near Blackett's Lake. but reception 17 is poor and unreliable in most of our communities on 18 the other side of the island. 19 1009 So we say the CBC is not currently 20 providing the service that we so desperately depend 21 upon. We hope that in the new millennium transmission 22 can be improved. 23 1010 We have done a very exhaustive study 24 of communities in our county, from Cape North to the 25 Canso Causeway. I will not go over these. They are StenoTran 196 1 printed out for you. You can see them, take them where 2 you want. 3 1011 It is interesting to note that at 4 Mabou Coal Mines, the home of much Cape Breton music, 5 they cannot get, cannot get, cannot get, cannot get, 6 cannot get: AM, FM, Cheticamp, English, French 7 television. 8 1012 In Cheticamp, where one would expect 9 that French radio would be available, it is very poor. 10 In Cheticamp, French television can be achieved very 11 well with cable. AM is almost non-existent. And when 12 you go to the northern part of our county, to Meat 13 Cove, three-quarters of the way down can't get good, 14 can't get good, can't get, can't get. 15 1013 I take these findings very seriously. 16 As a Council of the Arts, we take them very seriously. 17 We have consulted with our constituency, gathered the 18 information and we wish to share it with you. 19 1014 Some specific comments which may be 20 of interest. 21 1015 FM radio, said one person, is the 22 only CBC station received. It can be received only 23 upstairs. FM radio is the only CBC station received, 24 and it can only be received in certain rooms -- a 25 little bit like the Metropolitan for me. StenoTran 197 1 1016 The last comment: many people want 2 to listen to CBC but don't, because they do not get the 3 reception. 4 1017 I think it is time that reception 5 ceases to be a matter of political clout. We view the 6 CBC as a right, as an asset, and indeed we see CBC as a 7 treasure trove that we should not be deprived of. 8 1018 Thank you very much. I would be 9 pleased to respond if there are any questions after we 10 are through this evening. 11 1019 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just a quick 12 question right now, Mr. St. Clair. 13 1020 Can I ask how you conducted this 14 survey? 15 1021 MR. ST. CLAIR: We used the 16 telephone, and we consulted with at least three people 17 in each of these communities. We tried to sample the 18 various communities. 19 1022 Some people we called were people we 20 really didn't know. In other cases, we called people 21 whom we knew were CBC proponents. 22 1023 It is fairly reliable. 23 1024 I just came from Mulgrave, on the 24 other side of the causeway, and at a break in the 25 meeting I was at this morning I asked the people from StenoTran 198 1 the Strait area: Would they like to have CBC Sydney? 2 1025 I talked to six people out of a group 3 of 15. Five of them said yes, and one them said she 4 wasn't sure because she had never heard CBC Sydney. 5 1026 THE CHAIRPERSON: It was a telephone 6 survey. 7 1027 MR. ST. CLAIR: A telephone survey. 8 1028 THE CHAIRPERSON: Of at least three 9 people in each community. 10 1029 MR. ST. CLAIR: At least three people 11 in each community. 12 1030 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 13 1830 14 1031 MR. STEWART: I would now like to 15 invite Mr. Alan Leith. 16 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 17 1032 MR. LEITH: Jim, just one comment on 18 something you said. Even here in Sydney, CBC FM is 19 subject to multi path distortion of a horrendous nature 20 when you are below the line of Hardwood Hill. 21 1033 That is something that bothers me, 22 especially when I am driving along Kings Road. 23 1034 Many of the people who speak to this 24 Commission over the next few weeks will begin their 25 comments with "I grew up listening to the CBC", and I StenoTran 199 1 won't disappoint, obviously. However, unlike many of 2 them, my association with broadcasting has been 3 somewhat closer to the bone. 4 1035 Although I have never worked for the 5 CBC, I had a career in private broadcasting and in 6 broadcast education that began in earnest when I was 16 7 years old and lasted until I was in my early forties. 8 I have always liked the CBC, and I was an avid listener 9 at a very early age. I was fascinated by the radio 10 drama and the incredible amount of information that the 11 CBC offered its listeners. 12 1036 The news programs were always 13 in-depth, the announcers crisp and articulate; and best 14 of all, they seemed to know what they were talking 15 about. What the CBC was for me, however, is not what 16 it is today. 17 1037 The current labour situation aside, 18 the standards on CBC radio have gone downhill over the 19 last several years. There is no longer any real 20 standardization, and the quality of the announcers' 21 voices, for instance, has diminished to the point where 22 there are several who make me cringe when I hear them. 23 1038 I guess one of the things that I have 24 always thought was important was that CBC announcers 25 were well trained, and they used a style and StenoTran 200 1 pronunciation guide that was followed by everyone. Not 2 any more. 3 1039 A late uncle, who was a senior CBC 4 announcer in Montreal for many years, instilled in me a 5 certain desire to get it right, and I have always tried 6 to find the accepted and best pronunciation. 7 1040 On a recent national broadcast I 8 heard a local CBC reporter refer to "Judique", and 9 there are local announcers who insist that "Bas d'Or" 10 is another name for "Bras d'Or", or that all numbers 11 from 13 to 19 are "thirdeen" to "ninedeen". 12 1041 It is particularly annoying for me, 13 for instance, to hear while I am shaving at 7 o'clock 14 in the morning that it is "sevendeen" minutes after 15 seven. 16 1042 There are examples of reporters in 17 various parts of the world who, judging from the way 18 they pronounce the name of the city they are in, really 19 have no idea where they are. There are also hundreds 20 of examples of poor grammar usage, but I won't get into 21 that. 22 1043 Suffice to say that CBC has changed 23 direction in hiring announcers, reporters and 24 commentators. The newest staffer's knowledge of the 25 language is not at all up to par; and worse, there is StenoTran 201 1 no one checking what is going on the air before it gets 2 there. 3 1044 What really concerns me, however, is 4 the direction CBC radio will take in the 21st century. 5 Nothing is what it was, and the future of public 6 broadcasting in this country is at stake in view of the 7 government's attitude toward a medium that dares to 8 take it to task, constantly trying to muzzle those who 9 would criticize it. 10 1045 I for one feel the public broadcaster 11 must allow the nation's citizens and its own staff the 12 right to speak freely. 13 1046 Over the past decade private radio in 14 Canada has been drummed down to the point that the only 15 good radio left is in the major centres, where there is 16 serious competition. We here in Cape Breton have been 17 stripped of local radio programming of any real value, 18 with the takeover of the three private radio stations 19 by the same management company. Maritime Broadcasting 20 owns and operates CJCB-AM, CKPE-FM and has a role in 21 programming and management of CHER-AM. 22 1047 Since July 1998, industrial Cape 23 Breton's radio listeners of the three private stations 24 have been subject to programming by a person or persons 25 who choose to ignore the unique talents and music of StenoTran 202 1 most of the local artists, preferring to block their 2 music into two single Sunday shows. One is heard on 3 CHER on Sunday mornings, the other on Sunday evenings 4 on CJCB-AM. Both are at inconvenient times for many 5 listeners. 6 1048 To the best of my knowledge, CHER 7 plays absolutely no other Cape Breton music during the 8 week. CKPE-FM programs only the hits. 9 1049 Because it is unlikely the CRTC will 10 ever do anything to change this situation, I believe it 11 must become the CBC's responsibility to provide to Cape 12 Bretoners, as well as other local listening audiences 13 across the country, the type of programming that they 14 have lost. 15 1050 The CBC can help to preserve and 16 promote, for instance, Cape Breton's unique music. It 17 won't come from local private stations with the sale of 18 those stations to companies whose only goal is to make 19 money providing the absolute minimum of decent 20 programming. 21 1051 I don't for one minute know how the 22 CBC can overcome the problems it has with the unions 23 which, in my humble opinion, actually run the 24 corporation. I also believe the CBC is way too top 25 heavy, with administrators who do not understand what StenoTran 203 1 broadcasting is all about. 2 1052 I would suggest that the future of 3 the CBC depends on being able to provide responsible 4 and informative programming at a cost effective price. 5 We didn't need a bunch of radio reporters at the East 6 Coast Music Awards. We don't need a provincial CBC and 7 a local CBC reporter covering the same local stories, 8 and we don't need a national, a regional and a local 9 reporter covering major stories like DEVCO or SYSCO. 10 1053 One local reporter filing to the 11 national news desk, a second by the same reporter for 12 the regional desk, and a third report for the local 13 station is really all that is needed. Manpower can be 14 cut dramatically with a little extra effort on one 15 person's part. 16 1054 With changing technology and the 17 probable demise of AM and FM broadcasting in favour of 18 digital radio transmission and reception in the near 19 future, the CBC will have to keep up. 20 1055 As for funding, perhaps CBC radio 21 should take a very serious look at how national public 22 radio is funded in the United States. Perhaps CBC 23 television should be modelled on the American public 24 broadcasting system. The Canadian government must make 25 a commitment to match at least dollar for dollar, or StenoTran 204 1 more, all moneys raised from the public to operate the 2 CBC in the 21st century, as well as provide an annual 3 CBC budget. 4 1056 One of the most important things is 5 for the CBC to promote real broadcasters to management 6 positions. The corporation needs management people who 7 know the business of broadcasting. The President of 8 the CBC should be a broadcaster, not a career public 9 servant. 10 1057 Public broadcasting by the CBC is the 11 only way Canadians in St. John's can be kept in touch 12 with Saskatoon, Rimouski, Thunder Bay and every other 13 little nook and cranny in Canada. Private radio won't 14 do it. 15 1058 CBC radio is Canada's lifeline. It 16 cannot be allowed to further deteriorate. 17 1059 Thank you. 18 1060 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 19 Leith. 20 1061 Mr. Stewart. 21 1840 22 1062 MR. STEWART: We have been advised 23 that Ms Jasmine Jones will not be able to attend, 24 because she is ill. 25 1063 I will now ask Ms Vanessa Morrison to StenoTran 205 1 make her presentation. 2 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 3 1064 MS MORRISON: I am here representing 4 the Nova Scotia Film Development Corporation this 5 evening. We have answered the questions directly that 6 were on the sheet. 7 1065 The first question was: 8 "In your view, how well does the 9 CBC fulfill its role as the 10 national public broadcaster?" 11 1066 What is the mandate of the CBC? If 12 it is to provide a cultural voice for the residents of 13 Canada, then perhaps the programming should be solely 14 Canadian content and should provide more opportunity 15 for different cultural sectors to be heard. Providing 16 broadcast licences to more regional producers, with a 17 focus on cultural stories, could be one way that this 18 could be achieved. More Canadian or Mi'Kmaw stories, 19 cultural sectors. 20 1067 As for funding, if the CBC is 21 supposed to be a national public broadcaster, then they 22 should be treated as such. At present, the CBC is 23 dependent on advertising dollars and yet still funded 24 by the public. If they are in fact a public 25 broadcaster, they should be funded as such. If not, StenoTran 206 1 then they should be allowed to operate as a private 2 broadcaster, playing by the same rules. 3 1068 CBC cuts over the last number of 4 years have brought serious difficulties and increased 5 pressure and stress to the region, which we are seeing 6 now with the ongoing strike. They are not able to 7 adequately meet the needs of the public that they are 8 ultimately trying to serve. 9 1069 The next question you had was: 10 "In the new millennium, should 11 the CBC fulfill its role in a 12 different manner than it has in 13 the past?" 14 1070 This goes back to the mandate 15 question. Once defined as a cultural voice for 16 Canadians, then the CBC should begin to make changes 17 that will allow more Canadians to have their own 18 stories told. 19 "How well does the CBC serve the 20 public on a regional as well as 21 at a national level?" 22 1071 Regionally, the CBC Maritimes 23 provides excellent service, not only as a broadcaster 24 but as an integral member of the production and general 25 community. Through the work of people like Fred StenoTran 207 1 Mattocks -- who is here this evening -- at CBC Halifax, 2 a stronger film and television production community is 3 being built right here in the Maritimes. However, the 4 picture is not perfect. 5 1072 More representation on a national 6 scale by up-and-coming Atlantic Canadian producers 7 would help secure the future of the television 8 production sector in this region. 9 1073 Another thing referring to that is 10 that decisions are made in Toronto. It may be a day or 11 two later before Halifax even finds out about those 12 decisions, but the production community does find out 13 ahead of them. 14 1074 The next question: 15 "Should the programming provided 16 by CBC radio and television be 17 different from that provided by 18 other broadcasters? If so, what 19 should these differences be?" 20 1075 The CBC should be providing more 21 truly Canadian stories by more Canadians than other 22 broadcasters. Canadian content regulations should not 23 enter into the conversation. This should be part of 24 the mandate of the corporation. 25 "Is there a special role that StenoTran 208 1 the CBC should play in the 2 presentation of Canadian 3 programming? If so, what should 4 this role be?" 5 1076 Yes, the CBC should be actively 6 pursuing Canadian stories, taking a proactive role in 7 the development of Canadian culture, and promoting 8 regional diversity through an increase in regional 9 licences to independent producers and an increase in 10 funding to regional offices. 11 1077 That ends my presentation. 12 1078 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 13 Morrison. 14 1845 15 1079 MR. STEWART: I will now invite Mr. 16 Paul Jackson to make his presentation. 17 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 18 1080 MR. JACKSON: I would like to thank 19 the Commission for shortening the presentations to ten 20 minutes. When I first booked an appointment with you, 21 I was told that I would be given 30 minutes to speak, 22 and I was horrified at the prospect. Ten minutes 23 sounds a little more humane. 24 1081 I have a definition which I would 25 like to offer to you to think about. StenoTran 209 1 1082 I think this word is going to come up 2 a lot in this evening's discussion. It is a rather 3 vague-sounding definition, but I think everyone would 4 agree that it is a vague concept and one which 5 Canadians struggle constantly with. 6 1083 If we look south of the border, the 7 United States denies the importance of culture. They 8 have allowed big business to drive their social 9 machines, with the end result that American culture is 10 defined by the voice of its commercial media. 11 1084 To the rest of the world they are 12 increasingly perceived as simply an amalgamation of 13 corporate logos, with profit as their agenda. 14 1085 There is evidence, though, that 15 Canadians defend this concept of a national culture. 16 We are continually protecting ourselves from outside 17 influences, struggling to defend our interests despite 18 the undermining effects of treaties like GATT and 19 NAFTA. 20 1086 Why do we bother? Why do Canadians 21 insist that we are something other than the 51st state? 22 1087 I promise I will not spend this 23 entire discussion ranting about Americans, but I would 24 like to make one comparison. Everyone is familiar with 25 this image, I think. Pierre Trudeau first said that we StenoTran 210 1 were similar to a mouse next to a sleeping elephant. 2 1088 I would like to suggest that it is 3 this self-image of a mouse that gives us the cultural 4 edge over Americans. Canada is still a small country, 5 not geographically but psychologically. Each citizen 6 can still feel a significant part of a tangible whole. 7 We are not yet a huge unwashed mass of consumers, but a 8 social grouping of individuals who understand that 9 community is more than the sum of its business revenue. 10 This understanding is a subtle intangible thing, but it 11 is the basis of our culture, and its most visible 12 outlet is the CBC. 13 1089 Commercial media do nothing to 14 support this understanding of ourselves. Of necessity, 15 they serve their business clients, passing on only 16 those messages which are most useful for twisting the 17 consumer's opinion in favour of corporate goals. 18 1090 The CBC has a different mandate. 19 1091 It has been, and should remain, a 20 vehicle for the ideas of the common Canadian. If we 21 examine CBC television, though, it is certainly 22 becoming alarmingly similar to the commercial 23 broadcasters, much more so than the radio service. 24 This is a serious mistake. 25 1092 The CBC should not attempt to emulate StenoTran 211 1 the commercial broadcasters. There is no need to 2 duplicate a product already available on a staggering 3 profusion of channels. To do so would be to invite 4 annexation by any of the giant media corporations and 5 ultimately a complete loss of autonomy. 6 1093 To my mind, privatization is not an 7 option. 8 1094 Television is perhaps the most 9 powerful propaganda tool available to man, and failing 10 to take every opportunity to broadcast Canadian-made 11 programming will inevitably lead to the loss of that 12 distinctiveness which makes us Canadian. 13 1095 There is a lot of evidence that the 14 CBC still understands its responsibilities. The use of 15 60-second spots to present historical vignettes is a 16 brilliant way of making our heritage exciting for those 17 who are not even aware of it. And the broadcasting of 18 three hours of commercial-free children's television 19 every weekday morning is a wonderful sign of moral 20 strength by producers. 21 1096 The CBC has always been renowned for 22 its documentaries and increasingly makes use of 23 Canadian talent to produce excellent dramas and feature 24 films. 25 1097 Such endeavours should not be StenoTran 212 1 abandoned. 2 1098 Perhaps the area where CBC television 3 is weakest is in representing Canada to other 4 Canadians. Programs like "On The Road Again", 5 "Venture" and occasionally "Canada AM" build a social 6 fabric, debunking the myth that Canadians are boring. 7 1099 I also feel that the CBC spends 8 rather too much time broadcasting professional sporting 9 events. Canadians would be better served by programs 10 showing the great variety of amateur sporting events 11 that take place throughout the country. Surely more 12 Canadians would be induced off the couch and into some 13 physical activity by the chance of seeing themselves on 14 the screen rather than watching some overpaid stranger. 15 1100 But such a possibility seems 16 unlikely, even to an optimist like me. CBC television 17 has gone too far down the road of commercialism. I 18 only hope we can stop its downward spiral by this sort 19 of consultation. 20 1101 CBC radio is another animal 21 altogether. Until recent years, this branch of the 22 service maintained its integrity as a public 23 broadcaster and has always had a pleasing blend of 24 regional and national programming. Personally, I 25 cannot understand why anyone would want to listen to StenoTran 213 1 commercial radio. If you try to pay attention to it, 2 you must enjoy an endless series of monotonously 3 similar songs, interspersed with being harangued by 4 sonorous voices telling you get downtown right away or 5 you will miss the sale of the century. 6 1102 Those same voices make it impossible 7 to use the radio as background music. You are better 8 off with a CD player or cassette deck. 9 1103 CBC radio, on the other hand, has the 10 best of both worlds. With two networks available, you 11 can almost always tune in to a choice of music -- 12 except, of course, in certain parts of Cape Breton -- 13 or a wide range of programs with interviews and 14 performances which will educate or entertain you. 15 1104 We get good local coverage in Sydney, 16 with programs such as "Information Morning", "Maritime 17 Noon", "Mainstreet", and "Weekend Morning". 18 Nationally, we are tied together by such programs as 19 "The House", "This Morning", "Cross Country Check-up", 20 "As it Happens", to name just a few. 21 1105 The CBC continues to provide exposure 22 for Canadians to new ideas and cultures through such 23 programs as "Quirks and Quarks", "Ideas", "Roots and 24 Wings", "Global Village", and so on. 25 1106 Although there are hardly enough StenoTran 214 1 hours in the day, the CBC does make an attempt to 2 provide for musical interests other than classical. 3 Programs like "Brave New Waves", "Finkelman's 4 Forty-Fives" and "Vinyl Cafe" come to mind. 5 1107 I could not possibly mention here 6 every single radio program that I admire on the CBC. 7 Suffice it to say that there is a hugely diverse 8 selection, all designed to engage the mind and provide 9 true entertainment. 10 1108 It sounds too good to be true, 11 doesn't it. 12 1109 CBC radio is unfortunately not 13 perfect. Many people I know, including myself, spend a 14 large part of the day listening to CBC radio. Radio 15 has the advantage over TV that it does not require a 16 static audience; idle hands, and all that. So those of 17 us who can listen while we work. 18 1110 If you tune in for more than an hour 19 or two a day, it becomes glaringly obvious that things 20 are not as they were. In the last few years a number 21 of high profile radio personalities have disappeared 22 from the CBC radio dial. CBC management has failed to 23 replace the lost programs with new ones, preferring to 24 shuffle existing announcers around so that less people 25 are doing more work. StenoTran 215 1 1111 While I realize that favourite 2 programs must come and go, the present policy seems to 3 show a rather sad lack of imagination. Programs are 4 rebroadcast sometimes three or four times in a week, 5 and the listener's choice is rapidly dwindling. 6 1112 I do not believe Canada's culture can 7 be adequately represented by an endless series of 8 reruns. In the same vein, CBC radio has taken to 9 broadcasting the news every half hour on Radio One. 10 The network's motto may be news and more, but does it 11 have to be the same news every half hour? Surely 12 reporting every hour is more than sufficient. 13 1113 They do a pretty good job of 14 reporting on local, regional, national and 15 international issues in a non-partisan fashion, but 16 there is no need to break up the flow of other 17 programming with constant interruptions. 18 1114 If the CBC is so desperate to fill up 19 air time, they should look to Canadian authors and 20 playwrights to provide stories and plays for broadcast. 21 1115 My 5-year-old son enjoys the stories 22 he hears on "Vinyl Cafe". My wife loves the "Mystery 23 Project", and I enjoy the excerpts read on "Writers and 24 Company". 25 1116 Radio drama used to be very StenoTran 216 1 successful and inexpensive, and I think it is about 2 time it made a comeback. 3 1117 Basically, CBC radio seems to be 4 stagnating. The bean counters seem to have forgotten 5 that public radio thrives on variety. I would suggest 6 that the listening audience is a loyal one that 7 understands that things change, but they expect the CBC 8 to continue providing programs which express the 9 diversity of Canadians and their experiences. 10 1118 The CBC must not become just another 11 "golden oldies" station on the dial. Canadian culture 12 is more than just recording companies, rock bands and 13 ads for furniture warehouse outlets. 14 1119 If I had to explain our country and 15 people to someone who knew nothing about them, I would 16 show them one of those 60-second historical clips. I 17 think you know the one I mean, where Canada is mistaken 18 for the name of a country when really it means village. 19 1120 We should be proud to think of 20 ourselves as villagers. Any sociologist will tell you 21 that human beings behave more humanely in small groups. 22 But if we are to think of ourselves as a grouping of 23 villages, then we must have something to link us 24 together. 25 1121 The Fathers of Confederation StenoTran 217 1 understood the need for this link. Their contribution 2 was a transcontinental railroad which served for a time 3 but eventually failed. The CBC is now the only link 4 across this vast country. 5 1122 All the Canadians who believe that 6 they are part of something worthwhile see it daily 7 reinforced on the CBC. 8 1123 Certainly there are differences 9 between people listening in Digby or Sept Isles or 10 Moose Jaw or Nanaimo, but we have the CBC to bridge 11 those gaps, in our experience. Our diversity makes us 12 stronger. If we were all the same, then Canadians 13 really would be boring, but we have proof in the CBC 14 that we are not all the same. We should defend with 15 our hearts and souls that continuing evidence of our 16 existence and our culture. 17 1124 Don't let the CBC go commercial. It 18 is, after all, the Canadian Broadcasting Company. 19 1125 Thank you very much. 20 1126 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 21 Jackson. 22 1855 23 1127 MR. STEWART: I would now like to 24 invite Ms Margie MacDonald to make her presentation. 25 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION StenoTran 218 1 1128 MS MacDONALD: It is Marjorie 2 MacDonald. 3 1129 The reason I am here tonight, apart 4 from welcoming the CRTC to Sydney, is to speak as a 5 consumer in regard to my opinion on the CBC, both radio 6 and television. 7 1130 Tonight most people have spoken about 8 radio, and I think I will speak a little bit about the 9 TV side of the CBC. 10 1131 To begin with, I am a proud supporter 11 of the CBC and a proud taxpayer willing to support it. 12 I was, and continue to be, upset about the loss of our 13 own local TV news, but over the last number of years I 14 have adjusted to that fact. I appreciate the news 15 broadcast out of Halifax, "First Edition", as it does 16 carry a good deal of information regarding Cape Breton 17 and the staff, as most of us know, know the island well 18 as many of them are Cape Bretoners. 19 1132 They have also endeared themselves to 20 us here by travelling to areas outside of the Halifax 21 area. 22 1133 My concerns continue, and I am 23 worried that we here locally in Cape Breton, but also 24 in the entire Maritimes, may once again feel the cuts. 25 I am worried that we will not have a voice that will be StenoTran 219 1 heard; that our stories will not be able to be heard in 2 the other regions of Canada; and that we will not be 3 able to share our uniqueness with others. 4 1134 A tax-supported public system is good 5 for Cape Breton and is good for the Maritimes, 6 particularly for all of us to be able to speak our own 7 stories, about our own selves, about our own people. I 8 support the mandate of the CBC which allows us to do 9 that; different parts of the country speaking to other 10 parts of the country in their own voices by their own 11 people. 12 1135 One of the shows that I am 13 particularly know that allows for that is a show that 14 is called "Land and Sea". 15 1136 I already wrote to the CBC regarding 16 this show about a year ago, as I was upset that I could 17 not find it anywhere as it seemed to be moving around 18 quite a bit. Now I feel that it may continue to fall 19 victim to moves and may be out the door altogether. 20 1137 I do continue to have difficulty 21 finding it on any TV schedule, and I have not seen it 22 in a while. 23 1138 I am here to voice my support for 24 that show, and I would like to tell you why. 25 1139 The show is a great example of StenoTran 220 1 regional programming, which gives all Canadians a 2 chance to see the Maritimes and Cape Breton; gives the 3 rest of Canada a chance to see the east coast. "Land 4 and Sea" talks to us about us, the people who live and 5 work here, who care about the resources of our country, 6 who care about our rural communities, who care about 7 our way of life, and who want to see and hear about the 8 issues in depth. 9 1140 The resource centre, the environment, 10 the people who work in forestry, farming, mining and 11 fishing are the issues that this show deals with. It 12 is unique in that it reflects our lives, our roots, 13 helping us to understand and celebrate ourselves and 14 the uniqueness of the place in which we live. 15 1141 These stories need to be covered. 16 These are stories which reflect our values and our 17 culture, that define the east coast. These stories 18 need to be told through the mouths and the eyes of the 19 people who live and work here, the people of the 20 Maritimes. 21 1142 I would suggest that both on air and 22 behind the scenes remain as close as possible to where 23 the stories are, so that we can trust that they truly 24 reflect who we are. I worry that some decisions about 25 our region are made in far-away places like Toronto, or StenoTran 221 1 other large cities outside the region. Often the 2 result is not truly representative of who we are as a 3 people. Those places should tell their own stories and 4 share them with us. 5 1143 Centralization is not the way to go. 6 More and more people are seeking more and more 7 decentralization. I work in the area of addiction 8 services in the area of health. What we are hearing 9 often from people in the field that I work in is that 10 decentralization is the way to go. 11 1144 I am unhappy to see the CBC becoming 12 more and more centralized. 13 1145 CBC can help in our identification as 14 Canadians by letting all of us, region to region, talk 15 to one another. Our nation-building is helped by the 16 sharing of our stories, of our music, and of our 17 experiences. 18 1146 I hope you will try to help that 19 continue. 20 1147 Thank you. 21 1148 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 22 MacDonald. 23 1900 24 1149 MR. STEWART: I would now invite Ms 25 Sandra Dunn to make her presentation. StenoTran 222 1 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 2 1150 MS DUNN: Good evening and thank you 3 for the opportunity to be able to speak to the CRTC. 4 1151 I am addressing the CBC and the 5 volunteer sector of the community, the relationship 6 that is between CBC Sydney and the volunteers, the 7 people who work in a volunteer capacity within the 8 community. 9 1152 I am currently the President of the 10 Whitney Pier Historical Society and the past President 11 of the Whitney Pier Festival of Visual Arts. I am 12 still on the board. I am very active in the community, 13 and that is basically where a lot of my relationship 14 with the CBC began. 15 1153 If anything good can be said about 16 the strike situation at CBC, it is that it brings home 17 to people the important role that CBC plays in our 18 community life. From pre-dawn when "Information 19 Morning" starts the day to late afternoon when 20 "Mainstreet" steps out to visit its friends all over 21 the island, it fills our day with information and 22 music, linking us together as we go about our daily 23 lives. 24 1154 No one covers local issues and events 25 as does CBC Sydney. Live broadcasts from Pleasant Bay StenoTran 223 1 to Port Hawkesbury to Port Hood allows us to visit our 2 neighbours and get to know them. 3 1155 I am here this evening speaking both 4 as a listener and a contributor, via the "Party Line", 5 regarding the invaluable service the CBC performs for 6 those of us who work in the volunteer sector. 7 1156 They provide a depth of coverage of 8 events that non-profits could ever hope to purchase or 9 even expect to get in the commercial bracket. I speak 10 from my own experience in relationship to my community 11 of Whitney Pier, but the principle may be applied to 12 any location and organization on the island. 13 1157 Our community of Whitney Pier is 14 unique, having risen and declined with the fortunes of 15 the steel industry. We are a multinational blend of 16 European and West Indian cultures and boast more 17 organizations and halls per capita than anywhere else I 18 know of, and they all celebrate their cultural history. 19 1158 CBC is there to help us share these 20 events, thus promoting greater understanding of our 21 people. 22 1159 Our museum has benefited greatly from 23 their commitment to the promotion of community 24 initiatives. A couple of years ago weekly visits by 25 "Mainstreet" to inform folks about our art exhibits at StenoTran 224 1 the museum increased our profile immeasurably. 2 1160 "I heard about this on CBC" is a 3 phrase often heard during community events, as a person 4 drives from miles away just to drop in. 5 1161 Another example is a live broadcast 6 from the Gallery of Purescape 98. "Mainstreet" once 7 again succeeded in bringing people to share in the 8 event who might not have made the trip across the 9 overpass. 10 1162 From the in depth coverage of hard 11 news to the folksy fun of "Party Line", CBC seeks out 12 the newsmakers. Stories are covered extensively, and 13 plenty of times a lot of opposing views on issues that 14 affect us. 15 1163 I would like to go back in time to 16 1996, to a letter to the editor that I wrote that 17 appeared "In My View". It was "CBC Mandate 18 Threatened". At the time, we were threatened perhaps 19 with the demise of "Mainstreet". 20 1164 I would like to read a couple of 21 things that I wrote at that time. A copy of this was 22 sent to Perrin Beatty, and this subsequently appeared 23 in the Cape Breton Post. 24 "Again we are faced with the 25 loss of yet another important StenoTran 225 1 part of our island, one that has 2 contributed so much over the 3 years to our knowledge of who we 4 are, the people of Cape Breton. 5 I refer to the CBC cuts that 6 will end an era of broadcast 7 journalism that has delved into 8 the very heart and soul of every 9 community on this island. That 10 program is "Mainstreet". 11 1165 I am using that as an example, but 12 for any other of our local programming these words 13 could apply. 14 "Over the years we have shared 15 the laughter, tears, hopes and 16 dreams of people and places that 17 we learned about from reporters 18 who wrote the stories of our 19 daily lives and celebrated the 20 rich culture that creates a Cape 21 Bretoner. Theatre, the arts, 22 community issues and events from 23 one end of the island to the 24 other provide the fodder for 25 those talented folks to feed the StenoTran 226 1 imagination and foster 2 understanding and communication 3 throughout the area. One of the 4 best things that CBC always did 5 was promote regional programming 6 and "Mainstreet" is an example 7 of that success at its highest 8 level." 9 1166 At that time I stated that: 10 "I get the feeling that CBC's 11 emphasis has shifted 12 dramatically and John Q. Public 13 is no longer an important factor 14 in the new mandate." 15 1167 I just went on about the contacts 16 that I had with them and how I felt that they benefit 17 our community. 18 1168 We cannot lose any portion of this. 19 At a time when we are fighting for our fiscal as well 20 as our economic health, CBC Sydney is a place we can 21 rely on to tackle all sides of an issue. 22 1169 In their coverage of health, 23 economic, political and educational issues and the 24 music, arts and literature of the island, CBC is 25 unparalleled. CBC Sydney reflects who we are: the StenoTran 227 1 good, the bad and the ugly. It helps us achieve goals, 2 face reality and dare to dream. Anything less is 3 unacceptable. 4 1170 Thank you. 5 1171 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Dunn. 6 1905 7 1172 MR. STEWART: I now invite Mr. Robert 8 McNeil to make his presentation. 9 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 10 1173 MR. McNEIL: I will be able to reduce 11 mine substantially after some of the speakers that have 12 gone before me. 13 1174 I bring a perspective to CBC as a 14 person who had not lived in Cape Breton for quite a 15 while. I was born here but went away and lived in many 16 places in Atlantic Canada. 17 1175 I think it was during these 18 travelling years that I really appreciated broadcasting 19 such as we found on CBC. No matter where you were, you 20 were always well informed on things nationally; but you 21 were also well informed on the situation locally, 22 wherever you happened to live. 23 1176 I think this is very important, not 24 only to people who have lived in an area all their 25 lives; but I think it is a way that people moving into StenoTran 228 1 an area can become better informed about what is 2 happening in their community. 3 1177 I think that CBC is very important 4 nationally, but for Heaven's sake don't forget the 5 regions and the local broadcasting. I think this is 6 the part that I probably have more fear about than 7 anything else. 8 1178 The corporation's board of directors, 9 I believe most of them have no broadcasting experience. 10 They are hand-picked by the Prime Minister and are not 11 regarded as very friendly to the future of the CBC. 12 Folks like our Chairperson are on record as preferring 13 a national sounding radio service based in the 14 country's largest centres. The board seems unable to 15 appreciate the diversity of the regions and the areas 16 of the country and seems willing to shut down valuable 17 local shows like "Mainstreet" and "Information 18 Morning". This can't be allowed to happen. 19 1179 I think that the importance of local 20 programming was shown since the labour dispute of the 21 last few weeks. I don't even think that Halifax can 22 properly service this area. They don't know the 23 geography. That is demonstrated in the way some of 24 their public service announcements are handled. As is 25 indicated earlier, they can't even pronounce our names StenoTran 229 1 or the names of our community. 2 1180 Why this couldn't be done locally, 3 even with the strike on -- there is no reason why some 4 of the journalists on duty in the Sydney area could not 5 phone in and do the public service announcements and at 6 least get them right, and probably a bit more timely as 7 well. 8 1181 While we are considering radio and 9 with the move in this country to make everything pay 10 for itself, there is a lot of pressure to consider 11 commercial sponsorship of CBC radio programs. I feel 12 it will undermine the integrity of this world-class 13 broadcasting system. 14 1182 I should also note that CBC radio's 15 positive impact on the nation overshadows that of CBC 16 television, while consuming less than a quarter of the 17 corporation's budget. Like someone said, you can 18 listen to CBC radio as you work, or as you drive, or as 19 you sit on the beach. This is not so with CBC 20 television. I think the impact of CBC radio on this 21 nation far, far outweighs the impact of CBC television. 22 1183 I think there is also a move to fix a 23 government logo on the CBC logo. This may be fact; it 24 may be fiction. But it should never ever be allowed to 25 happen. We have to maintain the integrity of the StenoTran 230 1 corporation. It can't be seen as a publicity arm of 2 the government. It must be kept separate and entire. 3 1184 With access to cable and satellite, 4 the selection of television channels is incredible. 5 Where does the CBC television service fit in? 6 1185 Some would argue that Newsworld 7 represents the very best of what CBC does, while the 8 regular channel is lost in the channel clicking 9 shuffle. But then who else would produce the high 10 quality drama, sports, local and evening news? 11 1186 I think that the evening news is most 12 important again in the regions. There has to be, I 13 think, more input from the Cape Breton area on the 14 evening television programs. I don't think we are 15 doing a good enough job here. 16 1187 I think that some of the forces at 17 work on the board are simply because some of the people 18 who are sitting on the board don't know or understand 19 the broadcasting industry. 20 1188 I think it is worthy to note that 21 Cape Breton's agenda has suffered and has been given 22 lower priority provincially and nationally since our 23 local supper hour news "Cape Breton Report" was axed in 24 a round of cutbacks; that fact, as well as the lack of 25 media outlet in the Port Hawkesbury area. This is one StenoTran 231 1 of the fastest growing areas of Cape Breton. 2 1189 We have a problem in Cape Breton now 3 among the municipal governments, that one thinks one is 4 getting too much attention. They are having problems 5 getting together. I think this is a role for CBC, to 6 get us all together. 7 1190 If I were to leave home early 8 Wednesday morning and drive to Halifax, when I get to 9 St. Peter's, I lose the Cape Breton signal. I think it 10 is almost impossible to get a good signal of Cape 11 Breton CBC radio between St. Peter's and going on. 12 1191 We know that there is a tower 13 broadcasting CBC Halifax across the Strait. Why it is 14 there -- it was probably a political decision. I think 15 it is time that we took a hard look at that and get 16 this signal back into covering all of Cape Breton. 17 1192 Jim St. Clair spoke earlier. He did 18 a lot more research on the topic than I did. I think 19 there is a very, very substantial case to be made to 20 improve the signal coverage of Cape Breton. There is 21 no reason in the world -- 22 1193 Jim talks about the other side of the 23 island. Well, I think there is another side that is 24 being neglected -- even if some people refer to it as 25 the bottom. StenoTran 232 1 1194 Anyway, it is desperately being 2 neglected. That is most of Richmond County. They 3 can't get anything out of CBC Sydney, or at least very 4 little; and when they do, it is a very poor quality. 5 1195 I think there could even be a case 6 made for perhaps a bureau in the Port Hawkesbury area; 7 whether it would cover radio and television both, but 8 certainly radio. 9 1196 I recall during one of my terms 10 living in Prince Edward Island that CBC had a bureau in 11 Summerside. Well, for heaven's sake, Summerside to 12 Charlottetown was about a 30-minute ride. I don't know 13 if it is still there, but the individual who was 14 running it, I hear his voice now out of CBC Halifax. 15 1197 A half-hour ride as compared to two 16 hours in some parts of Cape Breton. I think there is a 17 case to be made for increasing or broadening the 18 reporter coverage in Cape Breton in both radio and 19 television. 20 1198 The island right now is going through 21 a tremendous upheaval. There is not a TV, a newspaper 22 or a radio station to reflect and interpret the change 23 that the taxpayers of this island are going through. 24 Only CBC radio outlets, in my opinion anyway, are to 25 make headway in this regard. The newspapers are owned StenoTran 233 1 by large chains, with a priority for profit. 2 1199 ATV has had a generation to provide 3 this coherent view of island life, and has chosen the 4 profit motive also. CBC's small TV bureau cannot 5 effectively provide a voice in Cape Breton. They are 6 just not getting the job done. 7 1200 I see two primary goals that need to 8 be met as soon as possible. As I said earlier, total 9 coverage of Prince Edward Island, not only 10 electronically, not only with the signal to get the 11 signal out for both radio and television, but also to 12 get adequate coverage of reporters, TV cameras, and so 13 on. 14 1201 The CBC radio service is a vital link 15 to the country, for rural people in particular. It is 16 often the only service available, and the CRTC should 17 remind the corporation to make sure these people's 18 needs are met, for they pay as much taxes as urban 19 dwellers. 20 1202 Over the long term the CBC ought to 21 improve its transmitters. Jim has told the story 22 adequately, and I won't go on with that. 23 1203 My final note is just a favourite of 24 mine. Last year on the "Morning Program" we enjoyed a 25 segment which was called "Mr. Nova Scotia Know-it-all". StenoTran 234 1 We laughed. It was wonderful. It is still available 2 in Halifax, but we don't get it here. It is one 3 section of the "Morning Program" that we would love to 4 have down here. I don't see why not. It is only a few 5 minutes a week. I for one would love to hear it again. 6 1204 I thank you for your time. I think 7 that the Government of Canada should be prepared to 8 fund a public broadcaster in this country. They should 9 be prepared to adequately fund it, and they should be 10 prepared to take a hard look at it being more than a 11 national service. It is a very, very important 12 regional service. 13 1205 We have to maintain and even improve 14 on what we have. 15 1206 Thank you very much. 16 1207 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr. 17 McNeil. We appreciate your comments. 18 1208 I think you made a little slip in 19 your first proposal, though, when you said -- and I 20 think I wrote this down correctly -- "total coverage of 21 Prince Edward Island". 22 1209 MR. McNEIL: Pardon me? 23 1210 THE CHAIRPERSON: You said "total 24 coverage of Prince Edward Island", and I think you 25 meant Cape Breton. StenoTran 235 1 1211 MR. McNEIL: No. I was talking about 2 when I lived in Prince Edward Island; that there was 3 total coverage there and that there was even a bureau 4 operating there. 5 1212 THE CHAIRPERSON: I know you said 6 that, but I thought you were asking for total -- 7 1213 MR. McNEIL: Okay. I get mixed up 8 with my islands on occasion. I always did. It's 9 either Prince Edward Island, Cape Breton Island or 10 Newfoundland. Forgive me. 11 1214 THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess we should 12 do all the islands. 13 1215 And I would suggest that maybe you 14 and Mr. St. Clair might want to get together to make a 15 proposal to the CBC that you could do the "Mr. 16 Know-it-all" show for Cape Breton. I think the two of 17 you together could do an excellent job. 18 1216 MR. McNEIL: Another Cape Bretoner, 19 one with good Cape Breton roots, has that covered. 20 1217 THE CHAIRPERSON: I was asked 21 earlier, when they saw the name on the list, whether 22 you were "the" Robert McNeil. 23 1218 I guess you would say you are. 24 1219 MR. McNEIL: Well, I am the Robert 25 McNeil. I should have said at first that I have a bit StenoTran 236 1 of a conflict of interest here, in that I do have 2 family in the corporation. So please don't hold that 3 against me. 4 1220 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 5 much. 6 1221 MR. STEWART: I will now call upon 7 Dr. Elizabeth Beaton to make her presentation. 8 1222 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is Dr. Beaton here? 9 --- Pause / Pause 10 1223 THE CHAIRPERSON: It would appear 11 not. 12 1224 MR. STEWART: Then we will move to 13 Mr. Stephen Downes, if you would be good enough to make 14 your presentation. 15 1225 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Downes? 16 1915 17 1226 MR. STEWART: Not here. 18 1227 Third time lucky, Mr. James MacSwain. 19 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 20 1228 MR. MacSWAIN: I am here. 21 1229 I want to thank the Canadian 22 Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, the 23 CRTC, for holding these consultations on the future of 24 the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, the CBC, and 25 opening them to the Canadian public from across the StenoTran 237 1 nation. 2 1230 This is a rare chance to speak before 3 the CRTC, particularly during this time when the CBC is 4 so threatened, internally and externally, due to the 5 budget cuts from the federal government, a hostile 6 prime minister, and a board composed of Liberal 7 patronage appointments. 8 1231 Because of these pressures on the 9 corporation, both CBC unions have initiated a strike 10 and soon the CBC may shut down so that none of their 11 programs will be reaching the Canadian people. 12 1232 My name is James MacSwain and I hold 13 a number of positions in the arts community in Halifax, 14 Nova Scotia. I am a representative for the Canadian 15 Conference of the Arts, the CCA, for Nova Scotia. The 16 CCA is a broad-based board of artists and arts 17 administrators that represent the Canadian cultural 18 community and who lobby for increased awareness of the 19 work of artists and those who work in the cultural 20 industries. 21 1233 I am a member of the Nova Scotia Arts 22 Council, which is an arm's length provincial agency 23 that gives grants to artists. I am an ex-officio board 24 member of the Cultural Network, a provincial 25 organization that represents a broad-based cultural StenoTran 238 1 sector constituency. 2 1234 I am also on the board of the Centre 3 for Art Tapes and an ex-officio board member of the 4 Atlantic Film Makers Cooperative. These last two 5 organizations are artist-run media centres, one video, 6 the other film, who have just entered into a 7 partnership with the CBC and moved into the CBC radio 8 building in Halifax. 9 1235 The strike has had an enormous impact 10 on these organizations, as workshops, meetings, access 11 to equipment has had to be juggled and in some 12 instances postponed. For a few months these 13 organizations were expanding and enjoying an 14 environment which represented a more open future, and 15 now these same organizations are under siege and the 16 future seems uncertain and crowded with questions. 17 1236 We are here to discuss the future of 18 the CBC, whose future seems even more obscure and 19 crowded with disaster. Yes, the unions are striking 20 for higher wages and job security, and I think they are 21 also striking for what they see as an end to one vision 22 of the CBC. 23 1237 This vision is embodied in the 24 Canadian Broadcasting Act of 1991, particularly in the 25 section entitled "Broadcasting Policy for Canada". StenoTran 239 1 Like all Parliamentary Acts, it encompasses what we all 2 think of as the Canadian ideal; that is, protection of 3 our sovereignty over our own cultural production, 4 protection of the two official languages, a balance of 5 entertainment and enlightenment, a capacity to educate, 6 a style that generates tolerance and rational 7 discourse. 8 1238 And in number (m)(ii), it states: 9 "The programming provided by the 10 corporation should reflect 11 Canada and its regions to 12 national and regional audiences 13 while serving the special needs 14 of those regions." 15 1239 In these days of a conservative 16 mindset, the elite of our country would like to 17 consolidate resources and profits in centralized 18 locations; i.e., Toronto. Thus we come to the great 19 tension that has been with the Canadian people since 20 Confederation: the push and pull of regional versus 21 centralized authority; or the location of wealth in 22 Ontario, in Ottawa, versus the "have not" provinces, 23 particularly the "have not" provinces represented by 24 the Atlantic Region. 25 1240 The original mandate of the CBC was StenoTran 240 1 to unify the country, and to do that it had to reach 2 out to the regions and to explain each region to other 3 regions. 4 1241 In this scenario, the Atlantic Region 5 has always been as prominent as any other region, 6 particularly our music and our drama. The CBC has also 7 unified each region, concentrating on shows that 8 brought regional concerns before a regional public. 9 1242 As a representative for many of the 10 artists in cultural industries that have benefited from 11 this regional mandate of the CBC, I want the CRTC to 12 hear that we want a strong regional voice in the CBC 13 that utilizes the cultural energy and vision of all our 14 Atlantic cultural workers. 15 1243 We do not want a concentration of CBC 16 specialty channels out of Toronto, which we do not have 17 access to and which would not be interested in our 18 unique voice or stories. We do not want to be 19 relegated to a "have not" communications policy because 20 the CBC has, whether we agree or not, been a thorn in 21 the side of the Liberal Government. 22 1244 This I think, as I stated above, is 23 the real reason for the strike. Whether it be 24 unconscious or not, the workers at the CBC sense a 25 change in the idealogy of the country, and this StenoTran 241 1 idealogy, which seems to be subtly controlled by the 2 United States of America, is not an idealogy that 3 represents the interests of the Canadian people. 4 1245 Marshall McLuhan, a Canadian 5 communications cultural critic, raised this question in 6 one of his early works. He writes: 7 "Ours is the first age in which 8 thousands of the best trained 9 individual minds have made it a 10 fulltime business to get inside 11 the collective public mind. To 12 get inside in order to 13 manipulate, exploit, control is 14 the object now, and to generate 15 heat, not light, is the 16 intention. To keep everybody in 17 the helpless state engendered by 18 prolonged mental rutting is the 19 effect of many ads and much 20 entertainment alike." 21 1246 The idealogy represented by the 22 U.S.A. is one that supposedly envisions a world that is 23 free of idealogy, where the individual wins against 24 giant corporations and corrupt governments, and 25 democracy triumphs over both communism and capitalism. StenoTran 242 1 We all know that this is not true. 2 1247 Like Marshall McLuhan, we are well 3 aware that the American entertainment business is a 4 propaganda device that shores up the global American 5 empire and capitalism while making sure we are rolled 6 into a helpless state, so that by the time we are 7 gobbled up we are not even aware of the pain. 8 1248 Most people believe that this has 9 already happened in Canada, so there is no need to 10 fight back. However, I do not believe that this has 11 already happened in Canada. I believe -- and I am 12 backed by the beliefs of the artists and cultural 13 industries of Canada -- that we still resist this 14 spectacular violent world so aggressively promoted by 15 American interests. 16 1249 I believe that the CBC resists such a 17 world. But as I mentioned above, I also believe that 18 this resistance is faltering as CBC management panics 19 over loss of power in a multi-channel universe. 20 1250 I see this panic as engendered by two 21 factors: a fear of democracy, and a fear of new 22 diginote technologies. 23 1251 In ways still unfamiliar and strange 24 to relate, the new digital technologies of the World 25 Wide Web and the Internet are unregulated. In other StenoTran 243 1 words, they are there to be freely utilized by both 2 entrepreneurs and political groups on the right and the 3 left. Pornographers snuggle up to animal rights 4 groups, which in turn snuggle up to groups that want 5 government to get out of gun control. 6 1252 The voices, beliefs and ideologies of 7 the western world are all there waiting to be heard by 8 anyone who wants to listen. What eventually will this 9 do to our compressed and regulated broadcast channels? 10 1253 The public, having tasted the freedom 11 to have the world at its fingertips, will want that 12 freedom in its broadcast system. Therefore, if the CBC 13 is to survive in this multi-channel and new 14 technological universe, it will have to become more 15 democratic and regional to track those viewers 16 interested in authentic culture. 17 1254 I still trust that the Canadian 18 public, a public built on an ancestral memory of the 19 class-risen societies of the old countries, of pioneers 20 who were forced to settle in Canada and who eventually 21 established a more democratic system, is still able to 22 distinguish between sham culture and authentic culture. 23 1255 If the CBC cannot deliver this 24 authentic culture in both its regional and national 25 manifestations, then the people will turn from it and StenoTran 244 1 seek authenticity elsewhere. Or, like the American 2 public, they will be driven to the extremes of 3 cynicism, where culture becomes a function of escape 4 into an unreal world of hollow spectacles. 5 1256 Yet at present those people 6 interested in an authentic culture are fewer than those 7 who do not want to involve themselves in the difficult 8 project of thinking. But that is what the CBC is all 9 about: to try and raise the level of thinking in this 10 country. 11 1257 It is unthinkable that this 12 experiment in democratic communications practice should 13 end. 14 1258 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 15 MacSwain, for your presentation. 16 1259 Since we are halfway through the list 17 for this evening, I think we will take a five-minute 18 break at this time, and then we will reconvene and hear 19 the rest of the presentations. 20 --- Recess at 1930 / Suspension à 1930 21 --- Upon resuming at 1940 / Reprise à 1940 22 1260 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ladies and 23 gentlemen, we will return to our proceeding now. 24 1261 Mr. Stewart. 25 1945 StenoTran 245 1 1262 MR. STEWART: Thank you. 2 1263 I would like to invite Mr. Ronald 3 Kaplin to make his presentation. 4 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 5 1264 MR. KAPLIN: I edit Cape Breton's 6 Magazine and Breton Books. Three things made me decide 7 to stay in Canada: the people of Cape Breton, the 8 beer, and the CBC. 9 1265 The beer is still fine. The people 10 of Cape Breton have taken an awful beating in the past 11 30 years, but they manage to come up as a unique and 12 interesting people. But the CBC is the worry of the 13 day. 14 1266 I have been here for 30 years. I 15 have created and published a magazine for 27 years, and 16 published another 35 books, all with CBC at my 17 shoulder. More than my background partner, it 18 stimulates, challenges, makes me proud of this country, 19 proud of an experiment in democracy that funds critical 20 analysis of Canadian life. I felt a little like we 21 were in partnership; the both of us devoted to good 22 music and to the human voice. 23 1267 More than that, the CBC radio in Cape 24 Breton has gone a long way toward making my work 25 possible. Local programs like "Mainstreet", StenoTran 246 1 "Information Morning" and "Island Echoes" have 2 demonstrated a long-time interest in my work and in the 3 work of the island's writers, supporting Breton Books 4 authors on-air, occasionally even purchasing their 5 work. 6 1268 No one has worked harder than Wendy 7 Birkfeldt toward promoting Cape Breton writing, 8 including book launches and the regular programming, 9 creating shows out of readings and interviews. 10 1269 CBC has turned several Cape Breton 11 Magazine stories into radio drama. Wendy and Ian 12 MacNeil and several others, including Joella Folds -- 13 who we all woke up with for a number of years -- are 14 vigorous caring people who believe that what is 15 happening here in Cape Breton is important and should 16 be aired locally, and then should be aired as often as 17 it can be in the national context. 18 1270 How else can Breton Books afford such 19 publicity? And more important, how else are young 20 people to know that Cape Breton has a vital place in 21 Canada? CBC has again and again given a voice to 22 fragile and vital cultural items. 23 1271 Not that everything is perfect. Many 24 of us worry that CBC radio will continue to be cut, 25 that it will end up as a fortress in Toronto, and no StenoTran 247 1 one will be looking for the voice of Canada's outport 2 communities, the local communities that I consider at 3 least as important as, if not more than, Toronto. 4 1272 As the human voice disappears from 5 private radio, I have watched Cape Breton's CBC, with a 6 declining staff, try to open its lines more and more to 7 the local voice. This is on top of already doing a 8 good job with a cut-down staff. 9 1273 There should be much more local 10 programming. Gaelic, Mi'Kmaw and French should have an 11 appropriate place on air. There should be a structure 12 by which the best of local programming finds it way to 13 the rest of Canada. 14 1274 The CBC can give us a centre while 15 respecting the local all across Canada. That should be 16 the goal. Programming should work two ways. 17 1275 My work has been the human voice, 18 local stories. Cape Breton's Magazine is the longest 19 running oral history magazine in Canada. I know that 20 programming in Sydney is committed to the human voice. 21 I want that to be a strong part of the continuing CBC 22 mandate. 23 1276 I want the CRTC to make local 24 programming part of the licence requirement and to 25 encourage government to better fund it, to restore CBC StenoTran 248 1 jobs in Sydney, and to certainly not allow one more 2 cut -- not one. 3 1277 CBC is a marvellous experiment in 4 broadcasting and looks finally to the CRTC for 5 protection. It is not enough to protect Toronto. 6 Without a vigorous station in Sydney, CBC cannot be 7 said to be in touch with Nova Scotia. 8 1278 The CBC should be encouraged to 9 include more of the local voice nationally, and that 10 requires staff and equipment at the local level. 11 Halifax won't make it happen, and Toronto won't make it 12 happen. The glory of the CBC is to draw the country 13 together while also representing the marvellous range 14 of local voices that is Canada. 15 1279 The CRTC should mandate that local 16 programming should be maintained and expanded. In 17 doing so, it is sending the message to government that 18 government should expand funding. 19 1280 To sum up: The beer is still good. 20 Cape Breton, despite 30 years of tough times, is still 21 a marvellous place and a marvellous people. But the 22 CBC -- I am more than a little worried about the CBC. 23 1281 Thank you. 24 1282 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 25 Kaplin. StenoTran 249 1 1283 I'm tempted to say: "Let's go have a 2 beer and talk about this." But I think we had better 3 hear the other presentations first. 4 1284 Mr. Stewart. 5 1945 6 1285 MR. STEWART: Now I am back to Chief 7 Lindsay Marshall to make his presentation. 8 1286 He is not here. 9 1287 Then, I invite Ms Joan Weeks to make 10 her presentation. 11 1288 She is not here either. 12 1289 Mr. Dan Yakimchuk, representing the 13 Cape Breton Council of Seniors & Pensioners. 14 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 15 1290 MR. YAKIMCHUK: Thank you very much, 16 Mr. Chairman. 17 1291 I am here on behalf of the Cape 18 Breton Council of Seniors and Pensioners. I want to 19 apologize on behalf of the President, who was going to 20 present tonight, but he has the flu. I was with him at 21 a meeting this afternoon. So what you see is what you 22 get. 23 1292 I am not as fortunate enough to wake 24 up with Joella Folds, but I did wake up with Ian 25 MacNeil -- no pun intended. StenoTran 250 1 1293 I would like to come at this from a 2 different perspective, from the seniors' perspective of 3 the CBC. I think it is of paramount importance. I am 4 in my 78th year, so I have been around a long time and 5 have been listening for a long time. 6 1294 I have been an activist all my life. 7 The people in our organization, ironically enough, 8 Nelson and all the people on the executive of the 9 Council, were former members of the executives of the 10 Unemployed Workers Union and the Steelworkers Union, so 11 we have been through the piece. 12 1295 We have always been strong supporters 13 of CBC, particularly local programming. 14 1296 As I said, on occasion I got on with 15 Ian, and his predecessors, and sometime I even got on 16 with Rex Murphy. And that is not always easy. 17 1297 I want to point out that it is 18 important, not only to the academics and the actors -- 19 and we all realize how important it is to local culture 20 and the actors and actresses and the performers on Cape 21 Breton Island, but also to senior citizens. 22 1298 We are sometimes left out, and I 23 certainly resent that as a senior. 24 1299 I do partake sometimes in "Maritime 25 Noon". In fact, two weeks ago, just prior to the StenoTran 251 1 strike, the guest was talking about Seniors Year, and I 2 was fortunate enough to get on that program also with 3 Kostas Salibrasos. This is what we would miss the 4 most. That is what we miss the most now. 5 1300 We do, as seniors, listen to the 6 radio a lot, and we certainly listen to CBC. There is 7 nobody in the world that can convince our organization 8 that any other news broadcaster in Cape Breton, or in 9 Canada, can surpass the CBC in education, news, 10 culture, the whole gamut. 11 1301 As I said before, we certainly 12 support the CBC programming. 13 1302 Quite recently, we had a local talk 14 show and somebody in their wisdom decided that we were 15 getting people like myself to come in person, or an 16 ex-steel worker would use these radios too much to 17 create a negative image. 18 1303 I am in my 78th year, so I don't know 19 what has been so positive about Cape Breton when I 20 talked to that aspect. 21 1304 At least CBC in "Information 22 Morning", they have seen fit to facilitate people like 23 myself and my colleagues on the Council, and anybody 24 who wishes to call every Thursday from 8:00 to 9:00 25 a.m., before the strike, to have a call-in show. I StenoTran 252 1 think that is what educates people like myself and my 2 colleagues. 3 1305 Thanks very much. If there are any 4 questions you would like to ask me, I am prepared to 5 answer them. 6 1306 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am tempted to ask 7 who you woke up with this morning, but... 8 1307 I was going to say maybe we will just 9 keep the transcript away from your wives. 10 1308 Mr. Stewart. 11 1950 12 1309 M. STEWART: Merci. 13 1310 Je voudrais inviter maintenant M. 14 Yvon Samson à faire sa présentation. 15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 16 1311 M. SAMSON: Merci, Messieurs les 17 commissaires. 18 1312 Tout d'abord, j'aimerais vous 19 remercier de tenir ces audiences à l'extérieur de la 20 région d'Ottawa. Puisque j'y ai travaillé depuis 17 21 ans dans le passé, je vois très bien que le CRTC et 22 l'ensemble de la routine d'Ottawa peut envahir beaucoup 23 de temps. 24 1313 Tout d'abord, je suis Yvon Samson. 25 Je suis maintenant résident de l'Isle Madame située au StenoTran 253 1 sud-est du Cap Breton. Cette île de 17 kilomètres 2 carrés a une population d'origine acadienne de 80 pour 3 cent, dont 2 800 des 4 100 habitants parlent 4 quotidiennement le français à la maison. 5 1314 Présentement, je suis un consultant 6 auprès d'entreprises et des associations, un des rares 7 consultants qui offrent des services en français et en 8 anglais. Je suis également Président du Conseil 9 scolaire acadien provincial, le seul conseil scolaire 10 qui administre et contrôle les écoles acadiennes en 11 Nouvelle-Écosse. 12 1315 Comme vous êtes en mesure de 13 constater, les services de Radio-Canada radio et 14 télévision sont indispensables pour les communautés 15 acadiennes en Nouvelle-Écosse et plus particulièrement 16 pour la communauté acadienne du comté de Richmond. 17 Nous ne recevons ces services que depuis 1971, soit 28 18 ans passés. Pour les 3 200 francophones du comté de 19 Richmond, Radio-Canada est le seul outil de 20 radiodiffusion en français qui contribue à son 21 épanouissement comme communauté en milieu minoritaire. 22 1316 J'aimerais profiter de cette occasion 23 pour remercier les membres du CRTC pour votre décision 24 récente de permettre à TVA d'étendre son signal sur les 25 services de câble à travers du pays. Cette décision StenoTran 254 1 augmente le choix télévisuel des Canadiennes et 2 Canadiens d'expression française. 3 1317 Comme vous le savez sans doute, le 4 câblodistributeur de la région de l'Isle Madame refuse 5 de diffuser le service RDI dans sa programmation. 6 J'estime que cette situation perdurera dans la région 7 en ce qui concerne les chaînes spécialisées que 8 Radio-Canada désire mettre en place, à moins que le 9 CRTC décide de rendre ces services obligatoires, ce qui 10 n'a pas été fait dans le cas de RDI et ce que vous avez 11 fait dans le cas de TVA. 12 1318 Personnellement, j'ai décidé 13 d'installer les services de Bell ExpressVu qui m'offre 14 la plupart des services disponibles en français au 15 Canada. Je dois exprimer toutefois ma déception que ce 16 fournisseur de services ne diffuse pas des émissions 17 d'information provenant de Moncton et de Halifax, 18 plutôt de Toronto et Montréal. C'est une anomalie à 19 corriger, bien que pour la première fois, j'ai deux 20 bulletins d'information qui proviennent de Moncton. 21 Avant, dans les années 80, on pouvait recevoir ces deux 22 bulletins d'information qui provenaient de cette 23 station. 24 1319 Comme vous le savez certainement, les 25 services sont très dispendieux puisque les équipements StenoTran 255 1 doivent être achetés. Cette option n'est pas 2 disponible pour la plupart des citoyens et des 3 citoyennes de ma région puisque leur revenu moyen est 4 au dernier rang des comtés en Nouvelle-Écosse, 5 c'est-à-dire 17 000 $ par famille. 6 1320 En ce qui a trait aux services de 7 Radio-Canada, je dois avouer qu'il y a une amélioration 8 dans la qualité et l'étendue des émissions provenant 9 des divers centres de production. De plus, bien qu'il 10 y ait une couverture accrue dans les bulletins de 11 nouvelles au niveau national, il semble que les 12 nouvelles proviennent en majorité du Québec ou du 13 Canada central. 14 1321 Concernant le centre de production 15 local de Halifax, il continue à servir les communautés 16 acadiennes de la Nouvelle-Écosse et de Terre-Neuve, 17 donc deux provinces, bien que la grève des techniciens 18 touche actuellement le service de "CBIF Bonjour" du 19 matin. 20 1322 Il est important de couvrir les 21 nouvelles de la capitale provinciale. Cependant, les 22 compressions budgétaires du gouvernement fédéral 23 affectent la quantité et la qualité des services dans 24 les communautés acadiennes au niveau local. Par 25 exemple, au cours des années 1980, les Affaires StenoTran 256 1 publique du Centre de production télévisuelle de 2 Moncton couvraient les dossiers en Nouvelle-Écosse 3 d'une façon plus approfondie. En d'autres mots, il n'y 4 avait pas seulement des entrevues qui se faisaient mais 5 il y avait un réel échange entre la personne de 6 l'émission et les gens qui faisaient partie de cette 7 émission-là. Aujourd'hui, ce service n'est plus 8 disponible. 9 1323 À chaque année, la communauté 10 acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse doit demander la 11 couverture des Jeux de l'Acadie, qui est un événement 12 sportif provincial, de la part de Radio-Canada. Après 13 les négociations avec les responsables à Moncton, ils 14 offrent de couvrir l'événement mais en réduisant le 15 temps de diffusion. 16 1324 Nous devons également demander pour 17 que certaines émissions soient diffusées localement 18 comme, par exemple, l'émission "CBIF Bonjour". 19 Pourtant, Radio-Canada a l'avantage de se rapprocher 20 des communautés qu'elle dessert et sensibiliser la 21 population aux services qu'elle offre aux auditrices et 22 aux auditeurs. 23 1325 Je crois que la Société Radio-Canada 24 doit continuer son rôle de diffuseur public national et 25 aura, je l'espère, les moyens financiers pour rejoindre StenoTran 257 1 et diffuser les émissions d'intérêt pour les régions 2 desservies. 3 1326 Radio-Canada section française a une 4 longue histoire de productions canadiennes puisqu'elle 5 produit des émissions et des bulletins de nouvelles 6 exclusivement en français, et ce, malgré les 7 compressions, et couvre l'actualité dans les quatre 8 provinces de l'Atlantique. C'est quand même un 9 territoire très étendu, similaire à l'Ontario, si on le 10 regarde en termes de superficie. 11 1327 D'après moi, Radio-Canada secteur 12 francophone doit faire connaître à Québec et ailleurs 13 l'existence des communautés francophones et acadiennes. 14 Les émissions et les bulletins de nouvelles de 15 Radio-Canada français sont différents des autres 16 radiodiffuseurs puisque les services sont en français. 17 En effet, c'est le seul outil de radiodiffusion capable 18 de produire des émissions et des bulletins de nouvelles 19 en français dans notre région. Il n'y a pas d'autre 20 radio dans la région du comté de Richmond. 21 1328 Sans cet outil de communication, les 22 communautés acadiennes de la Nouvelle-Écosse, et en 23 particulier le comté de Richmond, seraient dépourvues 24 d'une véhicule de diffusion de langue française et de 25 la culture acadienne moderne. StenoTran 258 1 1329 Je recommande que les émissions de 2 Radio-Canada, Centre de production Halifax, couvrent 3 davantage les régions acadiennes de la Nouvelle-Écosse 4 par l'accroissement de ses heures locales de 5 production. Cette recommandation implique 6 l'accroissement de journalistes en région. 7 1330 À l'heure actuelle, les journalistes 8 sont basés à Halifax et doivent couvrir les régions de 9 cette localité. La majorité des Acadiens vivent en 10 milieu rural loin de Halifax et les journalistes se 11 déplacent principalement lorsque certains dossiers de 12 la communauté acadienne deviennent volatiles ou 13 déchirants. Parfois, il y a des choses qui sont un 14 succès dans nos régions et malheureusement ils ne sont 15 pas couverts parce que les journalistes doivent 16 concentrer sur des choses qui sont expressives et 17 parfois ça ne nous donne pas la vraie image de ce que 18 la communauté vit et les succès de la communauté. 19 1331 Je recommande également que 20 Radio-Canada se rapproche davantage des communautés 21 acadiennes en produisant une partie des émissions à 22 partir des communautés locales. Pour ce faire, la 23 Société Radio-Canada doit se doter d'un plan d'action, 24 de production d'émissions telles que "Déclic" et "CBIF 25 Bonjour" dans chacune des régions acadiennes. Cette StenoTran 259 1 initiative pourrait augmenter les cotes d'écoute et 2 permettre une sensibilisation communautaire accrue de 3 résistance de la Société Radio-Canada. De plus, les 4 journalistes seraient plus sensibles aux particularités 5 locales et régionales de la communauté acadienne. 6 1332 Le Canada est la somme des régions 7 desservies par la Société Radio-Canada. La Société 8 doit refléter les régions dans ses émissions nationales 9 et couvrir les régions francophones et acadiennes où 10 elles se trouvent. Les émissions de Radio-Canada 11 secteur français sont déjà différentes, sont déjà 12 uniques, et sont déjà essentielles, par rapport à 13 celles de la section anglaise et des autres 14 radiodiffuseurs dans la région. 15 1333 Il reste que Radio-Canada doit 16 continuer à accroître sa présence en région car son 17 rôle est crucial pour le développement et 18 l'épanouissement des communautés francophones et 19 acadiennes. 20 1334 Merci. 21 1335 LE PRÉSIDENT: Merci, 22 Monsieur Samson. 23 1336 Mr. Stewart. 24 2000 25 1337 MR. STEWART: Now I invite Mr. Walter StenoTran 260 1 MacKinnon to make his presentation. 2 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 3 1338 MR. MacKINNON: Mr. Chairman, my 4 first comment is that I feel somewhat out of place here 5 tonight, because when I suggest to somebody "do they 6 remember this or remember that about radio", they said 7 to me: "We weren't even born then." 8 1339 Apparently, according to Danny, who 9 is only 78, he was a little boy, and I remember him as 10 a little boy. 11 1340 The things I remember -- I must say 12 that somebody did agree with me that we used to make 13 crystal sets. We made radio crystal sets. 14 1341 I appreciate the fact that the 15 discussions this evening are intended to focus on the 16 future role of the CBC rather than its role in the 17 past. Nevertheless, I hope you will allow me a moment 18 to describe the influence of the CBC on those of us who 19 were very young, or relatively young, when in 1936 CBC 20 radio was born. 21 1342 I know it may seem strange now, but 22 as a young boy here in Cape Breton I knew more about 23 Britain and Portugal and New England -- we used to call 24 it the Boston states -- the West Indies and Eastern 25 Europe than we did about Canada. We still referred to StenoTran 261 1 Britain as the mother country. 2 1343 We were very familiar with Portugal 3 because of the fact that Portuguese fishermen visited 4 our shores on a regular basis and were a familiar sight 5 in our communities. 6 1344 My parents spoke Gaelic to each other 7 and to us, and so Scotland seemed much closer to them 8 and to us than did British Columbia or Manitoba. 9 1345 Many of our neighbours were 10 immigrants from the West Indies and Eastern Europe, 11 working in the steel mills and in the coal mines, and 12 we knew a great deal about their homelands. In fact, 13 our wives learned from them how to make cabbage rolls. 14 1346 Then came the CBC. For the first 15 time we began to hear about this country called Canada. 16 We began to realize that we were capable of creating, 17 or indeed were well on the way to creating a unique 18 society of our own. And slowly but surely we began to 19 feel it was time to cut the apron strings. 20 1347 And this in spite of the fact that 21 the most culturally invasive society in the world was 22 next door. 23 1348 I must say here, Mr. Chairman, that 24 Canada means a great deal to me. 25 1349 Suffice it to say, Mr. Chairman, that StenoTran 262 1 the CBC was an integral element in the Canadian way of 2 life, as interesting and as important as any of our 3 cherished social programs. CBC has shaped this country 4 to an extent unequalled by any other institution. 5 1350 It is not too far a reach, I suggest, 6 that our excellent reputation throughout the world has 7 been the result in large measure to our having the CBC. 8 1351 I might just add here, Mr. Chairman, 9 that if you have travelled in foreign countries -- 10 1352 You know, seniors now, like seniors 11 in the past, are much better off than any other group 12 of seniors in our history. So once in a while my wife 13 and I will go to Europe, to England. The way we are 14 treated, once we say we are Canadians, is amazing. I 15 think a lot of credit must go to the CBC and the 16 country that they have helped to create. 17 1353 As to the future, I suggest, Mr. 18 Chairman, that we recognize that the number of Canadian 19 people per square mile, the number of Canadians per 20 square mile in a particular region, must not be the 21 criteria for the presence of the CBC. 22 1354 The CBC should not be in business of 23 manufacturing, like manufacturing plastic buckets or 24 cars. Its task is to contribute to a national 25 identity, to shape a more civilized society, to strive StenoTran 263 1 for excellence in all its endeavours. Every Canadian, 2 wherever they may live in this country, must be made to 3 feel as important as any other. 4 1355 It can be, and it will be, a rough 5 road to travel at times. But the destination, I 6 suggest, is one which might some day be viewed by the 7 rest of the world as an example to follow. 8 1356 We have created, in my humble 9 opinion, a country which is peaceful and civilized. We 10 have been very fortunate, you know. We have never 11 suffered war on our land, like a great many other 12 countries. So I guess we have a greater responsibility 13 to develop a society and a country that the rest of the 14 world can emulate. 15 1357 The CBC can be the instrument by 16 which the best in drama, or music, or documentaries, 17 news and public affairs, and most importantly the 18 uniqueness of every part of Canada, big or small, can 19 be made available to all Canadians. Not because it is 20 good business, but because it is a venue through which 21 the best among us may have a voice. 22 1358 I realize that the CBC has been 23 subjected to criticism all through its history, right 24 from the beginning. I would remind the people here 25 tonight that I remember distinctly the first suggestion StenoTran 264 1 that we should have a universal, publicly-financed 2 health care plan. If it had been put to a vote, it 3 would have been turned down. 4 1359 So I suggest that if the criticism is 5 directed at a program because it is not well-done or it 6 is improperly researched, that is one thing. If on the 7 other hand the CBC continues to do what it has done so 8 well in the past, to be honest and forthright in its 9 presentation of political, economic, cultural and 10 historical issues that are peculiarly Canadian, then it 11 is fulfilling its responsibility. 12 1360 No doubt at times it will find itself 13 in disfavour by the majority. I realize that we think 14 that in a democracy the majority should rule, but I 15 think we should step back from that. The majority is 16 not always right or indeed right most of the time. 17 1361 Mr. Chairman, in conclusion, I want 18 to emphasize again the influence that the CBC had on my 19 generation. My generation was the generation that came 20 through a depression and a war. Without the CBC, I 21 don't think we would have the kind of country we have 22 today, that is admired around the world. It is not 23 perfect, but as one who served for four and a half 24 years overseas, it was worth the effort. 25 1362 Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. StenoTran 265 1 1363 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 2 MacKinnon. 3 1364 MR. STEWART: I now would invite Mr. 4 Schneider to make his presentation. 5 1365 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Schneider is 6 not here. 7 2010 8 1366 MR. STEWART: Is Mrs. Ruth Schneider 9 in the room? 10 1367 It would appear not. 11 1368 Mr. Andrew Cochran, I would invite 12 you to make your presentation, sir. 13 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 14 1369 MR. COCHRAN: Thank you very much, 15 and good evening. 16 1370 Commissioners, I recognize that yours 17 is an unenviable task. Such is the nature of 18 Canadians' relationship with their CBC that everyone 19 has an opinion of what it should be, is not, or can be. 20 And that is healthy, I think. 21 1371 I also respect how much work you have 22 ahead of you, along with your colleagues, of absorbing 23 and weighing all the advice Canadians will be giving 24 you. I wish you good fortune and lots of wisdom in 25 your task in the days ahead. StenoTran 266 1 1372 I must say I am delighted that you 2 are starting here in Cape Breton, because, as my 3 recently adopted second home, I think that there is 4 something going on here that speaks volumes about the 5 CBC and stands out here in Sydney, in Cape Breton, in a 6 way that you will not see or feel in Halifax or 7 Montreal or Toronto or Vancouver, those other centres 8 of Canadian production. And I stress now "those other 9 ones". 10 1373 Right about now, if you went out 11 these doors, the outside doors, had a pair of 12 binoculars and looked straight across the harbour, you 13 would see around 100 people wrapping up another day of 14 work in the early 20th century -- leaving another day 15 in 1904, to be exact, to rejoin us here in 1999. 16 1374 The place there is called Filmscape 17 Studios, Cape Breton's new sound stage. As of this 18 evening, our crew is just finishing Day 98 of shooting 19 for our new prime time family drama series "Pit Pony". 20 Our customer is the CBC. 21 1375 It used to be years ago, when I first 22 started in this business, I was a reporter -- and I 23 know Commissioner Langford has a background as a 24 reporter as well. 25 1376 There are several ways to look at StenoTran 267 1 this story. One way is the cultural perspective. Cape 2 Breton now has its own piece of prime time with a story 3 about Cape Breton. I think it is an important story 4 for Canada and ultimately the world. I know it is a 5 story about community, ingenuity, innovation, 6 perseverance, rising above adversity, and, while never 7 taking yourself too seriously, about hope. 8 1377 Or you can look at it from the 9 business perspective. This is an independent 10 production, like others, where the CBC is the 11 foundation customer and the ultimate financial risk is 12 ours to assume, but where the broadcast shelves of this 13 customer had an opening for a series that is 14 passionately about Cape Breton and made in Cape Breton. 15 1378 These cultural and business 16 considerations have become hallmarks of the CBC, and I 17 am sure you will hear from other of my colleagues in 18 the production industry that that experience is 19 duplicated in production around the country. 20 1379 Then there is a third factor which I 21 think is uniquely important here, and that is the 22 economic impact to this community. This is not only a 23 series about Cape Breton, made in Cape Breton, but a 24 series that is being made by Cape Bretoners; 75 per 25 cent of our crew is from Cape Breton. StenoTran 268 1 1380 I do hope, as the eternal optimist, 2 that we will have a long run for our series here. But 3 when we inevitably finish production, those skills will 4 stay in Cape Breton for the next producer looking for 5 his own or her own version of magic. 6 1381 That will be the long-term legacy of 7 this series being here, the skills transfer. 8 1382 The short-term benefits are equally 9 compelling. Over the past eight months, our local 10 payroll has been $2.4 million. Another $2.7 million 11 has been spent on local goods and services. By the 12 time those $5.1 million in direct spending finish 13 travelling through the local economy, the real economic 14 impact to Cape Breton Island -- and this is according 15 to the government folks that build economic models -- 16 will mean $23 million in activity. 17 1383 My point is that all this flows from 18 the CBC. Uniquely amongst Canadian broadcasters, it 19 was the CBC saying yes to a series about a boy and his 20 horse at the turn of the century in Cape Breton. 21 1384 This is not an isolated incident. 22 This is not a single time that this has happened in 23 this region. The story has been repeated over the past 24 ten years of my direct experience in Atlantic Canada in 25 the production industry, where it has been the CBC, StenoTran 269 1 amongst any others, that has been the engine of 2 independent production here, to all intents and 3 purposes alone amongst other Canadian broadcasters in 4 this region, in helping form and create an independent 5 production industry. 6 1385 Together, this is the part of Canada 7 where, after all, the CBC and independent producers 8 learned that regionalism is a state of mind. Why not 9 produce network children shows, drama, comedy, variety, 10 news, all from beyond the banks of the Don River. And 11 that is what the CBC has done. We now have an industry 12 and, as a region, we are better for it. 13 1386 I could go on this evening with 14 several comments I have as a life-long viewer of CBC, 15 who appreciates the programming that it has, or indeed 16 as a former employee of the CBC. But I will leave that 17 for others more learned than me and for the long 18 horizon of submissions that you have before you as you 19 contemplate the future of the corporation. 20 1387 As I say, as unenviable as your task 21 may be, it is vitally important. Canada, and Atlantic 22 Canada, needs the CBC. 23 1388 Doing your task, I suspect, will 24 require lots of ingenuity, innovation, perseverance, 25 rising above adversity and -- while never taking StenoTran 270 1 yourself too seriously -- about hope. But then again, 2 that's why you started here in Cape Breton, isn't it. 3 1389 Thank you. 4 1390 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 5 Cochran. 6 1391 Just one question: You are right 7 that the CBC has been particularly successful as -- I 8 don't know what the best phrase is, an incubator, 9 whatever, in terms of getting the production business 10 going in this part of the country. And outside of 11 Toronto it has probably been particularly successful in 12 the country in terms of developing activity in this 13 region. 14 1392 What in particular can one attribute 15 to that success with respect to the CBC? 16 1393 I know there have been other 17 activities, like the Film Corporation, and so on. 18 1394 MR. COCHRAN: There are a number of 19 ways to come at that. In fairness, I think some of it 20 goes back however many years. Your memory would be 21 probably better than mine, Commissioner Colville, but I 22 am guessing 15, 20 years ago when the CRTC directed the 23 CBC to start looking beyond the traditional production 24 centres of Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. As close 25 an affinity as I have with several of my friends and StenoTran 271 1 colleagues at the CBC, I think sometimes a little shove 2 in the past has been necessary. 3 1395 I think probably the larger point is 4 that it was embraced and taken seriously and I think 5 moved on to become, as I said, a state of mind, where 6 people got past the perceptual difficulty of how a 7 production could take place outside of Toronto. 8 1396 Fifteen, 20 years ago there was an 9 issue of -- whether it was a perception or credibility, 10 I don't know, but it was not as accepted an idea as it 11 has become. 12 1397 I think the CBC, probably for a 13 couple of reasons, spent more time, did its homework. 14 I think a large part of that was having a strong 15 presence in this region through the regional 16 headquarters, particularly the regional headquarters 17 populated by some people who really wanted to make 18 something happen from Atlantic Canada and actively 19 sought out those of us in the independent production 20 community, and sat us down and said: "What can we do? 21 How can we make this work? Here is what we need. What 22 do you need? How do we make this happen?" 23 1398 That sort of on-the-ground 24 partnership and mutual self-interest was an important 25 fact, fuelled or supported by the mentality back in StenoTran 272 1 Toronto that it would be a good thing to have 2 production coming from outside of Toronto; that it was 3 part of the new sub-text of the corporation. 4 1399 All those things came together. 5 1400 Then there is the fact of the 6 risk-taking that the culture of the CBC was designed to 7 accept and to encourage. That was another factor. 8 1401 A lot of times we would be mounting 9 productions here with certainly people in the art 10 department, people in the camera department, music 11 composers, all the key positions in productions that 12 were not necessarily heard of, were not on an approved 13 list -- not an approved list, but the accepted crowd, 14 if you will, of doing that stuff in Toronto. And to 15 their credit, people at CBC took the leap of faith and 16 said: "Sure, let's try it. Show us what you can do." 17 1402 Fortunately, as you know, Maritimers 18 love a challenge. They rose to it and I think in every 19 case I am glad to say they delivered programs that 20 Canadians enjoyed and helped the CBC towards its goal 21 of Canadianizing its schedule. 22 1403 As you can tell, I am thinking about 23 this out loud as I say it. To organize the answer, it 24 would be, first, a bit of a prod. I think the system 25 works. I think the deliberation that the CRTC takes StenoTran 273 1 and the advice that you give a corporation like the CBC 2 is listened to and adhered to. So first a general 3 prod. 4 1404 But then a receptiveness to that, an 5 openness to that, an ability to take risks and 6 encourage innovation that then met with a group of 7 people who were anxious to do it. 8 1405 That is, I think in a nutshell, what 9 happened. 10 1406 THE CHAIRPERSON: This region has 11 been particularly successful in respect to television 12 with respect to your program "Theatre Tugboat" and now 13 "Pit Pony", and "Codco" and "22 Minutes" and "Street 14 Sense" and "Black Harbour". 15 1407 Do you think it has reached the stage 16 now where it would be self-sustaining? 17 1408 MR. COCHRAN: Where the independent 18 production would be self-sustaining? 19 1409 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, relative to 20 the CBC. 21 1410 MR. COCHRAN: I still don't follow 22 the question, sir. 23 1411 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you think there 24 is some particular action that would have to be taken 25 now? Now that it has developed to the stage that it StenoTran 274 1 has, do you think it has gained a momentum that would 2 keep on going? 3 1412 MR. COCHRAN: There certainly is a 4 momentum. There is no doubt about that. And several 5 of my associates in the production industry here, like 6 ourselves, are finding sales outside of Canada help 7 support future production. There is no doubt about it. 8 1413 But it does come back to that phrase 9 I used briefly here of shelf space. None of these 10 programs happen without the customer being the initial 11 believer. 12 1414 The idea of a show like "Pit Pony", 13 after we have been fortunate to have some success with 14 some of the other programs that we have done and have 15 some contacts in the international market, and the 16 ability to mount productions and a bit of our own 17 momentum, if I can be immodest -- 18 1415 In order to start "Pit Pony", in 19 order to create this whole new endeavour, it needs the 20 customer that sees the potential of that, that has the 21 risk-taking ability and -- oddly enough maybe for a 22 public corporation -- the entrepreneurial sense, if you 23 will, to see that there may be a new franchise that can 24 be started here, a new area of the schedule that can be 25 developed. StenoTran 275 1 1416 It needs somebody to take the leap of 2 faith. And that is not something, at least in my 3 experience and those of the people that I talk to in 4 this industry in this region, has no t been the case 5 with other broadcasters. It has been the case with the 6 CBC. 7 1417 That shelf space, that ability for 8 somebody to say "yes, there is a program I want to talk 9 to you about; yes, there is something that we are 10 willing to advance and get going", the need for that is 11 only growing, as the competitive environment increases. 12 1418 Too often, what the competitive 13 environment is doing is looking for the fast buck 14 program, the one that can be made quickly, can be made 15 for a low price, can be churned through the system 16 quickly. More than ever before, now is the time for a 17 public broadcaster who will take the considered time to 18 look at a program on its merits and have the patience 19 to work with it and develop it so that it can really 20 take root and develop for the long term. 21 1419 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for that. 22 1420 Mr. Stewart. 23 2025 24 1421 MR. STEWART: Thank you. I will now 25 ask Mr. Neil Livingstone to make his presentation. StenoTran 276 1 1422 I am told he is not in the room. 2 1423 The program lists Mr. Frank Gaudet as 3 a presenter, but of course he made a presentation this 4 afternoon. So he will not be here this evening. 5 1424 I would now call upon Ms Johanna 6 Padelt to make her presentation. 7 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 8 1425 MS PADELT: I came here this evening, 9 and drove for over an hour over very bumpy extremely 10 wet road, in fog. I came here because I never wrote my 11 farewell letter to Peter Gzowski. I felt very guilty, 12 and I felt I had to do something to express my 13 appreciation for what the CBC has meant to my life, to 14 let people know how much the CBC means to me. 15 1426 I know I am following a lot of very 16 eloquent people here, and I am going to make my 17 statements short because other people have said it 18 probably better than I can say it. 19 1427 I appreciate the opportunity to be 20 here, and thank you very much for holding this meeting 21 here. 22 1428 I am a crafts person. I emigrated to 23 Canada in 1971 from the United States. When I was 24 talking about coming to this meeting with my good 25 friend Ron, we talked about whether we would go and StenoTran 277 1 what we might say, and Ron said: "Isn't this what we 2 moved here for?" -- meaning the CBC. 3 1429 Yes, in a lot of ways. As people 4 have said before, the CBC is Canada. When you come 5 from another country and hear programming of the sort 6 that we heard in 1971, and particularly for a while I 7 must say Peter Gzowski was the CBC for me. He was 8 there for a few years and then he left, and it was a 9 tremendous loss. 10 1430 I live in a very rural isolated part 11 of Cape Breton. Being a crafts person, I am isolated. 12 Living rurally, I am isolated. The CBC connects me to 13 my community. It connects me to the larger Cape Breton 14 community; it connects me to my province; it connects 15 me to my country. 16 1431 We need the CBC to hold this country 17 together. Many of you have spoken about the need for 18 local programming, and I wholeheartedly agree that our 19 local programming should be strong, should reach out 20 across the country. 21 1432 I also believe programs, however, 22 like "This Country n the Morning" had a vision when 23 Peter was there that reached out across the country 24 into the local communities. I appreciate being 25 connected to the rest of Canada through the CBC, StenoTran 278 1 sitting in my little workshop pounding at my silver, 2 hearing other people, other crafts people in B.C. 3 saying they are doing the same thing and how glad they 4 are to have the CBC. And we are connected to each 5 other. 6 1433 I remember Peter's great program when 7 the Winnipeg flood was happening. It reached people's 8 hearts across the country and raised hundreds of 9 thousands of dollars. I appreciated being able to be 10 part of that community, not suffering like they were, 11 but really being able to be part of their suffering; 12 being able to call up afterwards and give my donation. 13 1434 There are so many creative people in 14 this country. We need a broadcaster that uses and 15 presents this talent. 16 1435 When making my remarks, many of them 17 are in reference to CBC radio because, as someone else 18 mentioned before, radio has a power. It can be part of 19 your life all day long, whereas television cannot. I 20 do appreciate a lot of the cultural programming that 21 CBC television offers, but it is CBC radio that 22 influences my life more. 23 1436 We need this publicly funded national 24 broadcaster. There have been so many cutbacks. We 25 need to increase the funding to get the CBC programming StenoTran 279 1 back to what it used to be. 2 1437 This is something that I have heard 3 all evening: If it could only be what it was, maybe it 4 would be in pretty good shape. 5 1438 Right now, a third of CBC radio 6 programming is repeat programming. As a person who 7 sits in my isolated little workshop pounding on my 8 silver and making my jewellery, I realize now how often 9 I say "oh" and I actually turn it off because I have 10 heard it before. 11 1439 On local and regional programming, 12 our focus should be an independent broadcaster, as was 13 mentioned before as well. We don't want it to be 14 interfered with by government. 15 1440 Phil Richardson calls himself a sad 16 goat, and there is a reason for that. I think in some 17 ways all of us who love the CBC can all call ourselves 18 sad -- maybe not a goat, but sad anyway. 19 1441 I am sad that this government does 20 not have the vision or the will to preserve, enhance 21 and expand this unique Canadian institution, the CBC, 22 which has the power to knit together the fabric of this 23 large, diverse and wonderful country and at the same 24 time allow people to be in touch with their local 25 communities. StenoTran 280 1 1442 Thank you very much. 2 1443 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 3 1444 If Ms Mitton gave you the money to 4 make CBC radio programming put back to what it used to 5 be, what would it sound like -- setting aside the fact 6 that Mr. Gzowski may not want to come back; that he may 7 want to really retire this time. 8 1445 MS PADELT: As I said before, Peter 9 had a vision. But to me all the things that people 10 have been saying, he had that in his own vision. And 11 somehow, even though he was sitting there in Toronto a 12 lot of the time, he was able to make us feel like a big 13 family. I think that is important. 14 1446 I think the program that has replaced 15 it does not have that feeling. 16 1447 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is not a 17 question of money, then, not necessarily. 18 1448 MS PADELT: That one is not. 19 However, money would be not to have all this repeat 20 programming. It would be what happened to -- Bill 21 Richardson is a very creative person. Why does he have 22 to host this program where he is having to play all 23 these things that are repeats? 24 1449 I think just more diversity of 25 programming; as some of the people have said, more StenoTran 281 1 local programming, French programming, Mi'Kmaw 2 programming. It would just sound like you have a full 3 day of new things coming at you rather than a day where 4 you know this is going to be repeated now, so I think I 5 will turn it off. 6 1450 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 7 much. 8 1451 Mr. Stewart. 9 2033 10 1452 M. STEWART: Merci, Monsieur le 11 président. 12 1453 Maintenant, j'inviterais Mme Gisèle 13 Blanc-Lavoie à faire sa présentation. 14 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 15 1454 MME BLANC-LAVOIE: Bonjour, messieurs 16 et mesdames. 17 1455 Je voudrais représenter la Fédération 18 acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse, les 1 500 personnes 19 francophones, d'après les statistiques, qui habitent à 20 Sydney. Comme la personne qui a parlé en français l'a 21 dit avant moi, à Sydney, nous sommes entre deux régions 22 acadiennes. Donc, nous sommes très très bien placés 23 entre Cheticamp et l'Isle Madame, mais malheureusement, 24 nous n'avons pas accès à beaucoup de choses. Pourtant, 25 notre situation géographique se présente très bien. StenoTran 282 1 1456 Premièrement, je parlerai des accès 2 que nous avons; deuxièmement, je parlerai de la 3 programmation; et troisièmement, j'essaierai de 4 présenter ce que nous pourrions améliorer à la Société 5 Radio-Canada pour une meilleure communication entre les 6 sept régions acadiennes de la Nouvelle-Écosse. 7 1457 J'aimerais faire une petite 8 comparaison, c'est que dans les années 70, nous étions 9 à Moncton. C'était au moment où Radio-Canada 10 commençait aussi et je trouve que c'est merveilleux 11 parce que en Nouvelle-Écosse, en ce moment, 12 Radio-Canada commence aussi et je pense que c'est très 13 important de pouvoir être optimiste pour pallier à 14 l'assimilation qui est très importante. Donc, je 15 soulignerais -- et je remercie le CRTC de nous 16 écouter -- le rôle de Radio-Canada contre cette 17 assimilation galopante. 18 1458 Pour l'accès, donc, nous avons la 19 radio depuis 25 ans. Elle est très bonne. La Première 20 chaîne, je ne comprends toujours pas ce que ça veut 21 dire. Tous les matins, je fais comme Mme Johanna. 22 J'écoute la radio et on me dit que c'est la Première 23 chaîne mais je ne sais pas pourquoi la Première chaîne. 24 Personne ne nous l'a expliqué. 25 1459 Il y a une autre chose aussi. Nous StenoTran 283 1 sommes très bien placés, comme je l'ai déjà dit, mais 2 nous ne pouvons pas écouter la chaîne de musique 3 classique. C'est une chose que je ne comprends pas 4 depuis 25 ans. Je le demande à beaucoup de gens et ce 5 n'est pas possible. 6 1460 Par exemple, le samedi après-midi 7 j'écoute l'opéra en anglais. La publicité dit que 8 l'opéra est présentée en français par Radio-Canada mais 9 je n'arrive pas à la voir à Sydney. Je suis sûre que 10 c'est un problème de technologie et peut-être que ce 11 n'est pas très difficile à pallier. 12 1461 Pour la programmation, ce que nous 13 avons ici en Nouvelle-Écosse, c'est de 6 h à 9 h, une 14 seule émission la matin et en semaine seulement. Le 15 samedi et le dimanche, les francophones et les 16 Acadiennes de la Nouvelle-Écosse n'existent 17 pratiquement pas -- j'exagère un peu -- et je trouve ça 18 très perturbant parce que pendant la semaine c'est 19 fantastique. 20 1462 De 6 h à 9 h, nous savons ce qui se 21 passe partout ailleurs dans les sept communautés 22 acadiennes, ce qui est très important parce que nous 23 pouvons, comment dirais-je, découvrir ce qu'ils font. 24 Nous pouvons les copier et lorsqu'on fait de 25 l'animation, c'est très important de savoir ce qui se StenoTran 284 1 fait ailleurs pour le développer dans notre nouvelle 2 communauté puisque nous venons juste d'acquérir un 3 centre communautaire. Donc, je trouve que le samedi et 4 le dimanche, les jours où les gens peuvent écouter la 5 radio, là les Néo-Écossais existent très, très peu 6 parce que tout part de Moncton. 7 1463 L'émission du matin est très, très 8 bonne, mais il y a sept régions acadiennes et nous 9 avons seulement... par exemple, la région de Sydney ne 10 passe avec ses nouvelles qu'une fois tous les 15 jours. 11 Je trouve que c'est très, très, très peu parce que si 12 une certaine région acadienne ne passe qu'une fois 13 chaque semaine, d'autres ne passent qu'une fois à tous 14 les 15 jours, ce qui crée des différences. 15 1464 D'autant plus qu'ici, et vous devez 16 connaître la situation, les Acadiens sont situés dans 17 la région de Clara(ph) mais la centralisation se fait à 18 Halifax. Donc, tout part d'Halifax et c'est très 19 difficile de relier les régions comme la personne 20 précédente a dit. 21 1465 Le matin donc nous avons beaucoup de 22 nouvelles mais l'après-midi, les nouvelles s'estompent 23 et à 6 h, lorsque les nouvelles arrivent de Moncton, 24 les Acadiens de la Nouvelle-Écosse ont presque disparu 25 parce que ceux de l'Île-du-Prince-Édouard ou ceux de StenoTran 285 1 Terre-Neuve passent avant. Ça doit être très difficile 2 pour les personnes de choisir quelles nouvelles doivent 3 être, surtout que les nouvelles sont de plus en plus 4 courtes. 5 1466 Pour la programmation, ce que 6 j'aimerais proposer en Nouvelle-Écosse -- et je pense 7 que peut-être je ne rêve pas -- j'aimerais proposer une 8 émission toute la matinée pour la Nouvelle-Écosse avec 9 les différentes régions de la Nouvelle-Écosse présente. 10 D'ailleurs, cette émission aurait un rôle éducatif 11 auprès du Conseil scolaire acadien et je pense que 12 c'est le but de Radio-Canada d'avoir un rôle éducatif. 13 Il pourrait être utilisé dans les écoles. 14 1467 Ce que j'aimerais aussi c'est plus 15 d'Acadiens sur les ondes. C'est là que je fais encore 16 la comparaison avec Moncton. Dans les années 1970, 17 lorsque nous étions à Moncton, nous entendions 18 seulement des Québécois parlés. Maintenant lorsqu'on 19 est à Moncton, ce sont les Acadiens qui parlent et 20 j'aimerais que la même chose se fasse au niveau de la 21 Nouvelle-Écosse, que les Acadiens de Cheticamp, de 22 l'Isle Madame, de toutes les provinces aient envie de 23 parler, veuillent parler. 24 1468 Je crois que dans une émission d'une 25 matinée, si cela est possible, ça serait très, très StenoTran 286 1 agréable et ça serait très, très bon contre 2 l'assimilation aussi parce que les enfants pourraient 3 entendre leurs parents ou leurs grands-parents parler 4 et je crois que c'est très important. 5 1469 Donc, j'ai dit aussi que toutes les 6 régions acadiennes devraient être représentées en 7 ondes. Ça je l'ai déjà dit. 8 1470 À propos du réseau national, de la 9 radio toujours parce que je suis une fanatique de la 10 radio, je regarde très, très peu la télévision. Je 11 rejoins un peu ce que disait Mme Johanna. Je suis 12 dépité par toutes les nouvelles parce qu'on a des 13 nouvelles le matin et ce sont celles que nous avons 14 entendu la veille. Alors, je trouve que si j'ai écouté 15 les nouvelles à 11 h du soir, le matin à 7 h du matin, 16 je ne veux pas entendre les mêmes nouvelles. 17 J'aimerais qu'elles soient différentes. 18 1471 La même chose pour la fin de semaine: 19 les mêmes nouvelles se répètent... Le dimanche, 20 j'adore les émissions de Radio-Canada du dimanche matin 21 mais toutes les nouvelles sont les mêmes à chaque 22 heure. Mais c'est fatigant finalement. Est-ce que 23 nous sommes des imbéciles? Est-ce que nous devons 24 avaler les mêmes nouvelles pendant quatre heures de 25 suite alors que les émissions entre sont excellentes. StenoTran 287 1 1472 Une autre chose aussi: c'est trop de 2 rediffusion d'émissions, comme le disait madame tout à 3 l'heure. Je trouve, si on écoute la radio une fois, 4 c'est que l'on aime la radio. Donc, on ne va pas 5 l'écouter une deuxième fois. Je trouve que la 6 nouveauté est excellente, mais ça c'est naturellement 7 dû aux coupures et je le déplore beaucoup. 8 1473 Une autre chose aussi: trop 9 d'émissions faites avec des lignes ouvertes. Les 10 auditeurs créent l'émission et les journalistes sont au 11 chômage. Je trouve ça ridicule. Ce sont les auditeurs 12 qui parlent et les journalistes passent leur temps à 13 leur dire, vous n'avez plus que deux minutes, vous 14 n'avez plus que trois minutes. Si j'écoute la radio et 15 qu'on est en train de demander à un expert ce qu'il 16 pense, je veux écouter l'expert. Je ne veux pas 17 écouter le journaliste qui dit, vous n'avez plus que 18 trois minutes, dépêchez-vous ou quelque chose comme ça. 19 1474 Donc, ça ce sont des critiques 20 générales sur la radio. 21 1475 Pour la télé, juste quelques petites 22 idées. Je trouve que les feuilletons historiques faits 23 au Québec sont excellents. Je trouve qu'au point de 24 vue passé, ce n'est pas passéiste mais ça apprend aux 25 enfants sur leur passé. StenoTran 288 1 1476 J'aime aussi beaucoup les feuilletons 2 régionalistes -- ça rejoint ce que disait le 3 monsieur-là justement -- c'est très, très bien, mais 4 régionalistes du Québec. Donc, ça développe les 5 connaissances des régions au lieu de centrer le tout 6 sur Montréal, Montréal, toujours Montréal, alors qu'il 7 y a beaucoup de Québec à l'extérieur. 8 1477 Comme le disait Mme Louise Imbeault, 9 j'aimerais bien qu'il y ait des feuilletons acadiens. 10 Est-ce que je rêve? Peut-être que non. Ça serait 11 fantastique pour la culture acadienne. Ça serait 12 magnifique d'avoir des feuilletons faits comme les 13 feuilletons faits au Cap Breton, mais faits dans les 14 régions acadiennes. 15 1478 Je crois, bon, je vais tout 16 simplement conclure. Il ne faut pas couper notre 17 Société Radio-Canada mais au contraire développer à 18 outrance pour aider à l'animation culturelle car nous 19 en avons beaucoup besoin. 20 1479 Merci. 21 --- Applause / Applaudissements 22 1480 LE PRÉSIDENT: Merci beaucoup, 23 Madame. 24 1481 Mr. Stewart. 25 1482 MR. STEWART: That is the end of the StenoTran 289 1 list, but I will read the names of the people who were 2 not in the room just in case they are here and wish to 3 speak. 4 1483 Dr. Elizabeth Beaton; Mr. Steven 5 Downes; Chief Lindsay Marshall; Ms Joan Weeks; Mr. 6 Schneider; Mrs. Schneider; Mr. Neil Livingstone. 7 1484 None of those people are here. 8 1485 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is there anybody 9 else here who wanted to make a presentation tonight? 10 1486 No. 11 1487 Does anybody who already made a 12 presentation have any further comments they want to 13 make? 14 1488 Ms Cusack. 15 1489 MS CUSACK: For those of you who were 16 not here earlier, I was the second speaker of the day. 17 It was very interesting, since I heard almost all of 18 the presentations, to think about the consistencies 19 between the presentations. 20 1490 For the most part, I think you were 21 told today that local programming is vital to our 22 region in Cape Breton and vital to our island cultural 23 interests, vital to our economy, vital for education 24 reasons, and vital to keep people in touch with one 25 another. StenoTran 290 1 1491 I think almost everyone who spoke 2 also spoke as Johanna just did, about the importance of 3 connecting Canadians. Somebody said earlier from sea 4 to sea to sea. It is extremely vital to our national 5 persona, our national interests as well. 6 1492 You raised the question this 7 afternoon -- and I have not heard it discussed this 8 evening -- about whether you have the ability, if you 9 decide to do it, to enforce the hand of government to 10 increase the funding of CBC so that it can continue to 11 foster local programming and so that it can continue to 12 foster regional programming, and the kind of production 13 values that Andrew Cochran spoke about. 14 1493 I think you do have the power or 15 moral suasion or persuasion. 16 1494 You said earlier, Mr. Chairperson, 17 that the Act is a matter of interpretation. As a 18 lawyer, I would say to you that I think you have heard 19 consistently from all of the people from this province 20 who have spoken today their interpretation of the 21 mandate of the CBC. 22 1495 I doubt very much that you will, 23 other than from private interests, hear anything 24 different as you travel across the country. 25 1496 As a lawyer, I think that the StenoTran 291 1 interpretation is a little bit narrower than perhaps 2 you are suggesting; that you do have the ability, and 3 in fact the duty to attempt to convince government to 4 do its duty by its own legislation. 5 1497 Thank you. 6 1498 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 7 Ms Cusack. 8 1499 I didn't want to give the impression 9 that we would necessarily take a narrow interpretation 10 of the Act. We can certainly encourage the government 11 to give CBC the adequate funding to do the job. 12 1500 One of the issues that we have to 13 wrestle with in addition to that, between ourselves and 14 the corporation, is: How does the CBC best utilize the 15 money it has, whatever amount that is, in order to 16 serve the needs of Canadians as they feel it is going 17 to serve their needs? 18 1501 That is really why we are undertaking 19 this exercise to go across the country. 20 1502 One of the things that struck me 21 again tonight about some of the issues that have been 22 raised here, again as in this afternoon, as you noted, 23 there is a considerable amount of consistency with the 24 session we had this afternoon and the one this evening; 25 and that being a huge focus on radio and how the people StenoTran 292 1 here presented their views, see themselves or hear 2 themselves, and the importance of their community and 3 the reflection of their community on CBC radio -- 4 whether we call it One or Two, or AM or FM, or stereo 5 or mono. 6 1503 That is important. As Mr. Mattocks 7 mentioned this afternoon, he was worried that there 8 would be a lot of focus on radio and perhaps not much 9 on television. 10 1504 I would invite them to come to the 11 table to respond to what they have heard this evening. 12 1505 Mr. MacSwain said, for example -- he 13 is not here and I did not pick him because he is not 14 here, but he made this comment -- that he didn't want 15 the CBC concentrating on specialty channels. Somebody 16 else said -- and I forget who said it now -- that CBC 17 does a particularly good job of news on Newsworld, 18 perhaps not as good a job on the main service. 19 1506 And then within all of that we heard 20 all of the comments about the importance of radio, and 21 so on. 22 1507 Mr. Cochran was suggesting one of the 23 challenges we face at the Commission, and of course the 24 CBC does, is: How does one balance all of these 25 competing challenges in terms of where do you beset StenoTran 293 1 focus your attention in order to satisfy the concerns 2 and needs that have been raised by folks like 3 yourselves here tonight? 4 1508 I wonder whether anybody has any 5 further comments on that or comments on some of the 6 other issues you have heard from each other here 7 tonight. 8 1509 Mr. Kaplin. 9 1510 MR. KAPLIN: Please clarify for me 10 what the CRTC is actually able to do. My thought is 11 that the CRTC is able to establish the rules by which 12 any particular station can operate. 13 1511 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's right. 14 1512 MR. KAPLIN: It doesn't have to be 15 the same rules for every station. 16 1513 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's correct. 17 1514 MR. KAPLIN: If you established a set 18 of rules for the CBC, it would be the CBC's job then to 19 meet those standards and to find that funding. If you 20 established a recommendation -- more than a 21 recommendation, a requirement -- that expanded local 22 programming had to be achieved, I think you would be 23 sending a message that certainly many of the people I 24 have heard tonight would want you to send. 25 1515 I would be surprised if regions that StenoTran 294 1 felt themselves as local across Canada would not 2 encourage you to make exactly that recommendation. 3 1516 Just so I understand: You are able 4 to do that. 5 1517 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have defined 6 precisely what our role is. It is defining within the 7 specific issues the conditions of licence upon which a 8 broadcaster, whether a private broadcaster or the CBC, 9 must operate under. So in terms of defining amounts of 10 local programming or regional programming. 11 1518 Or, as someone mentioned earlier 12 today, on private radio the amount of Canadian content; 13 on private and public television, the amount of 14 Canadian programming that has to be aired. Those are 15 established by condition of licence. 16 1519 The stations must adhere to those 17 conditions. 18 1520 MR. KAPLIN: Not to repeat myself, I 19 guess I look forward to seeing a very strong 20 recommendation that the CBC, to renew its licence, 21 should provide expanded local programming of continued 22 high quality as a requirement for its future. 23 1521 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What we can't 24 do -- and we discussed this this morning, and if our 25 friends from the CBC will bear with me for a minute, I StenoTran 295 1 think we might as well put it on the table again. 2 1522 What we can't do, though, is force 3 the government to spend more money. We can't set 4 priorities for the government, and we can't say take it 5 out of the health budget, take it out of the military. 6 1523 MR. KAPLIN: I appreciate that. 7 1524 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: We are not 8 Paul Martin. 9 1525 MR. KAPLIN: That's right. 10 1526 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I think one 11 of the things you may want to think about -- and we can 12 certainly leave the mics open for a little more 13 discussion later after we hear from our friends from 14 the CBC. 15 1527 You may want to think of where you 16 would be prepared to give, if you have ideas like that 17 as well. We will take that information back with us 18 too. 19 1528 You have told us what you want, but 20 if there is only a limited amount of dollars, something 21 has to go. It's Economics 101 here. This is not 22 rocket science. 23 1529 MR. KAPLIN: Precisely. And if a 24 private broadcaster came to you and wanted to, just for 25 an idea, control the stations in Sydney, and if you StenoTran 296 1 made one of the regulations of having control over the 2 station in Sydney that the public voice had to be 3 there, the public voice would be heard a lot more in 4 private broadcasting. And if private broadcasting felt 5 that that was an expensive thing to do, they would more 6 vigorously find a way. 7 1530 It is not our job to find the money 8 right now. I don't think we can answer that question. 9 It is our job to say what we know the community needs, 10 and it is the government's job -- 11 1531 You know, one day it's broke and one 12 day we are going to have more money put into health 13 care. I can't deal with that, and I can't answer that. 14 And it should not be pot to a community as small as 15 this to find that answer. 16 1532 What we have to tell you is what we 17 need to survive and to grow and to be a better 18 community for Canada. It is the job of the group that 19 wants that licence from you to make it possible, to 20 find the money and to find the talent. 21 1533 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I think I may 22 have not made myself clear -- and I apologize for that. 23 Communications is not perfect. 24 1534 What I was trying to say is that in 25 the limited sphere of the CBC itself, just the CBC at StenoTran 297 1 this point -- because that is what we are here to talk 2 about -- we have heard loud and clear about the 3 priority being a regional voice, and links between 4 communities and among communities. 5 1535 If the CBC had absolutely no more 6 money, no more financing -- this is just a 7 hypothetical -- and despite all of our most eloquent 8 pleas to the government things remain stationery, 9 something might have to go in order to achieve that. 10 1536 I suppose what I was wondering was 11 whether people had ideas that: Yes, here is the type 12 of programming that we really like, but here is the 13 type of programming we could live without. 14 1537 I am going to give an example, and I 15 don't in any way want to say that I am biased in this 16 way or anything. Please don't report that Stuart 17 Langford is against the Olympics. But would you be 18 prepared to live without coverage of the Olympics? 19 Would you be prepared to live without -- 20 1538 MS PADELT: Coverage of hockey. 21 1539 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: There you 22 are. These are the sorts of things that we can also 23 put into our mix, because we have heard what you want. 24 And that is the limited sense I was speaking about. 25 1540 We have heard loud and clear what you StenoTran 298 1 like. I am not trying to end this evening on a 2 negative tone, but we haven't heard too much -- 3 1541 We know you would like Bill 4 Richardson to have more money so that he could have an 5 original voice rather than a rebroadcast voice. 6 1542 Where do you get the money? Do you 7 take it out of hockey? Do you take it out of -- 8 1543 MR. KAPLIN: Toronto. 9 2055 10 1544 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Mattocks is 11 going to tell you that hockey makes money. 12 1545 Maybe it is a good time to turn it 13 over to Mr. Mattocks to comment on what they have 14 heard. 15 REPLY / RÉPLIQUE 16 1546 MR. MATTOCKS: It is the conundrum of 17 CBC television. People who think they are being 18 helpful try to tell us that our problem is we try to be 19 all things to all people. So we try to make hockey for 20 people who like hockey; we try to make arts programming 21 for people who like the arts. There is a body of 22 thought that says that can't be done. 23 1547 I exist in my job on the premise that 24 it can be done and it is done. I think that 25 programming that we manage to do out of this region is StenoTran 299 1 a good example. 2 1548 At one point one of the speakers said 3 that CBC television is becoming more and more like the 4 commercial channels, and my heart dropped to my feet 5 because we have been spending our last several years 6 trying very hard to do the opposite. 7 1549 Prime time television is now very 8 close to 100 per cent Canadian, if not 100 per cent. 9 Daytime is significantly more Canadian than it was. So 10 I was wondering what Mr. Jackson might have meant by 11 his comment. It was a very creative presentation. He 12 is obviously a very thoughtful person. 13 1550 When I sit there and look at what we 14 have produced on television, not just out of the 15 Maritimes -- but a lot of it comes out of the 16 Maritimes -- in terms of comedy, for instance, we are 17 the home of Canadian comedy. The Comedy Channel and 18 Baton's comedy efforts, and other people's comedy 19 efforts, came after ours when they saw what kind of a 20 constituency you can do, what kind of an audience you 21 can do, and so on. The same is true in drama, the same 22 is true in news. 23 1551 It seems to me that we are in almost 24 a unique dilemma; that every time we are successful at 25 something, somebody else picks up on it. And then StenoTran 300 1 somebody says: "What is the CBC doing that for?" 2 1552 The Kaplan-Sauvageau Commission 3 talked about this at great length. 4 1553 One thing I thought might be useful 5 that occurred to me as I was listening, that I am not 6 sure if the Commissioners are aware of -- I am sure 7 Commissioner Colville is -- is the peculiar make-up of 8 this region and this province as compared to other 9 places in Canada. We are in the most rural place in 10 Canada. 11 1554 The latest StatsCan figures show Nova 12 Scotia, for instance, as being 45 per cent rural -- and 13 that's by StatsCan definitions, which I understand 14 calls small towns urban. 15 1555 There are 350,000 people in Halifax, 16 but there are 540,000 people who are not in Halifax. 17 1556 One of the things that we wrestle 18 with all the time, and something Mr. MacNeil spoke 19 about, is the representation of issues and stories from 20 other parts of this province. It is a dilemma for us. 21 We work very hard at it. Our little bureau here does 22 more than its share. 23 2100 24 1557 I was telling people this morning it 25 generates 25 per cent of our news programming, it has StenoTran 301 1 generated in the last year; and that is by actual 2 count. It is obviously not far enough, but we do what 3 we can with the resources we have. 4 1558 One of the things that we have been 5 able to do through all of the cuts is maintain the 6 bureaus that we have in this province. The Sydney 7 bureau continues, although diminished slightly from 8 what it was, and we have been able to maintain our 9 bureau in Yarmouth as well. 10 1559 So for what it is worth, its' a step 11 in the right direction. 12 1560 Susan...? 13 1561 MS MITTON: I just wanted to say that 14 we view this whole exercise as a wonderful one for us, 15 because we got to listen this afternoon to four hours 16 of viewer and listener comments and the same this 17 evening. We are not here to rebut anything that is 18 said. In fact, we are here to absorb criticisms. 19 1562 I am delighted, I have to say, with 20 the response and the support for local radio. It 21 doesn't surprise me. I am aware of that. I think we 22 are hanging tough, and we should. 23 1563 I was interested in some of the 24 comments on repeats, and I have a few thoughts on that 25 that I wanted to share with you; and also on the StenoTran 302 1 transmission front. It came up this afternoon as well. 2 I thoroughly enjoyed the presentation and the chart, 3 and we are going to be able to use that to our 4 advantage, I hope, on the transmission problem. 5 1564 Let me just go back for a moment to 6 the repeat situation. The sense that a third of radio 7 programming is repeat, I am not quite sure where that 8 comes from. If you take a week day, you have 9 "Daybreak" from 5:30 to 6:00, which is regional; you 10 have "Info Morning" from 6:00 to 9:00; you have "This 11 Morning" from 9:00 to 12:00; "Maritime Noon" from 12:00 12 to 2:00. 13 1565 "Richardson's Roundup" is an 14 interesting exercise for us. My own instinct and 15 background as a programmer -- somebody said "all 16 management are bean counters". I was "Land and Sea" 17 for 15 years on the road; executive producer of "News 18 and Current Affairs". I have been a national show 19 host. I am a programmer at heart. 20 1566 My instinct is to never repeat 21 anything. I have been there, done it, got the T-shirt, 22 let's move on. 23 1567 But the reality is that when you take 24 out about 25 to 30 per cent of your operating budget 25 and you lose that amount of staff, you have to figure StenoTran 303 1 out another way. What we did is look -- 2 1568 We had to take our hit in the 3 regions; we had to take our hit locally, as part of 4 that budget cut. But we also sliced some out the 5 network; we had to. 6 1569 We looked at the lowest listening 7 time, which is actually 2:00 to 4:00 for radio, and we 8 looked at the budget of Gabero. We were going to lose 9 Gabero anyway, because she wanted to go and try B.C. TV 10 for a while. So we basically took half of that budget 11 and said: "If we have no budget for this show 12 basically, we have a very talented host in Bill 13 Richardson. Can he make matzo balls out of whatever?" 14 1570 There was a lot of CBC programming, 15 part of that programming from the regions, excellent 16 regions. I have heard a lot today about we need to 17 hear more from other regions and share our voices and 18 stories with other regions. This was a concerted 19 effort, in fact, to take the best of CBC radio 20 programming and have it a second play. 21 1571 That was a programming decision. 22 Whether it is working or not -- believe me, we are 23 hearing the repeat sting, but it is not just about 24 "Richardson's Roundup"; it's about news; its' about a 25 story that is really good on "Info Morning" in Sydney StenoTran 304 1 hitting "Maritime Noon" and then it may even go 2 national at some point. 3 1572 Some people appreciate hearing that. 4 The people that listen day in and day out, many, many 5 hours a day to radio -- and thank God we have that 6 core, and we value it -- they are the ones that are 7 most aggrieved, obviously, by this repeat pattern. 8 1573 If you move on from "Richardson's 9 Roundup", we are into "Mainstreets". I have the happy 10 job of being the Regional Director of Radio. We have 11 six "Information Morning" type programs. We have one 12 "Maritime Noon" and we have four "Mainstreets" in the 13 Maritime Region, which my colleagues look at with great 14 envy. 15 1574 We do serve local communities very 16 well in this region, and "Mainstreet" here in Cape 17 Breton attests to that. We didn't roll it in with 18 Halifax, and we will continue to try to resist any move 19 that way. 20 1575 The reality is that there are only so 21 many dollars around. 22 1576 If you move into the evening, you 23 have "As It Happens". Then there is a repeat hour. It 24 is called "Best of This Morning"; it was "Best of 25 Morningside". That, again, is strategic to pluck some StenoTran 305 1 of the best bits out. And then you are on into "Ideas" 2 and so forth. 3 1577 The idea that we have a third of 4 repeat programming -- 5 1578 And then the weekends are entirely 6 different. I don't believe that is the case. I don't 7 have it broken down in front of me. But part of our 8 coming here today -- 9 1579 MS CUSACK: It is full of repeats as 10 you go between Radio One and Radio Two. It is horrid. 11 1580 MS MITTON: Radio One and Radio Two. 12 Radio Two primarily deals with classical music. Radio 13 One is talk. 14 1581 MS CUSACK: There is a fair bit of 15 repeat between those two services on the weekend, I 16 think. 17 1582 MS MITTON: I would have to go back, 18 because I am not aware of that and I listen to both. I 19 am responsible for both. 20 1583 As I was going to say, part of our 21 exercise here is to take complaints and criticisms 22 back, and if we don't have documented answers for 23 you -- and I am not being defensive, because I agree 24 with the repeat issue. But a third, to me, is 25 overstating it by quite a bit. StenoTran 306 1 1584 I will get back to you and do our 2 research on that for you. That is a very important 3 issue to us. 4 1585 I think the transmission -- I don't 5 know if you have anything more to add than you said 6 already. It is pretty hard to go up against Jim, isn't 7 it. 8 1586 We won't even go there, other than to 9 say we believe that the signal should reach everybody 10 for Radio One and Radio Two. It is again a matter of 11 money. In the mid-1980s they just decided we are going 12 to have to -- again, Sophie's choice: we are going to 13 stop adding transmitters at this point and focus on the 14 areas that we are currently serving. 15 1587 Digital may help us out, but that may 16 be a few years beyond yet. 17 1588 The more opinions that are voiced, 18 however, through MLAs and to presidents of CBC, and so 19 forth, and through the CRTC on this issue -- it is the 20 squeaky wheel potentially. The network people are 21 probably going to be really angry at me for saying 22 that. 23 1589 We believe that everyone should get 24 the signal. We would love to have that the case. 25 1590 MS PADELT: Certainly I am not StenoTran 307 1 criticizing people who are trying to work with this 2 limited budget. I think I made it clear that funding 3 is a major issue here. 4 1591 I really appreciate what you are 5 doing with a limited budget. 6 1592 MS MITTON: Thank you. 7 1593 Jules, do you have any comment on 8 that? 9 1594 M. JULES CHIASSON: Si vous 10 permettez, j'aimerais juste ajouter quelques mots pour, 11 enfin, terminer la session d'aujourd'hui ici à Sydney. 12 1595 D'abord, je suis Jules Chiasson, 13 Directeur de la radio dans les provinces de 14 l'Atlantique. J'ai eu l'occasion de travailler pendant 15 10 ans à Halifax avec Susan et Fred et j'ai été 16 agréablement influencé par la bonne gestion qui se 17 déroule à Halifax au niveau des productions 18 artistiques, musicales, et même du côté de 19 l'information.i 20 1596 Je suis Directeur de la radio à 21 Moncton depuis trois ans. J'aimerais peut-être dire 22 pour répondre un peu aux trois interventions qui se 23 sont faites en français aujourd'hui, au niveau de la 24 programmation régionale, que la radio en Atlantique à 25 Moncton c'est un réseau en soi. On dessert les quatre StenoTran 308 1 provinces. 2 1597 Alors, quand il y a des assemblées 3 législatives qui se déroulent à Halifax, Frédéricton, à 4 Charlottetown et Terre-Neuve, il faut suivre le débat 5 qui se fait dans les quatre assemblées législatives. 6 Dès qu'il y a des élections dans les provinces de 7 l'Atlantique, c'est l'équipe de Moncton qui va couvrir 8 les élections. On vient de couvrir les élections à 9 Terre-Neuve. On prévoit deux autres élections 10 prochainement. C'est encore la même équipe qui va les 11 couvrir les élections, que ce soit au Nouveau-Brunswick 12 ou en Nouvelle-Écosse. 13 1598 Ceci dit, malgré les compressions 14 qu'on a connues au cours des dernières années, on est 15 très sensible à couvrir l'ensemble des régions des 16 provinces de l'Atlantique. Déjà, malgré les 17 compressions, on a ouvert un centre de production à 18 Charlottetown. C'est tout récent. C'est en 1996. 19 1599 On venait d'ouvrir un centre de 20 production à Halifax. Ça ça date seulement depuis 21 1986. Enfin, c'est à ce moment-là que j'ai été 22 travaillé à Halifax comme producteur délégué avant de 23 venir à Moncton comme directeur. Et on a ouvert 24 également un bureau journalistique à Caraquet en 1996 25 également. StenoTran 309 1 1600 Alors, malgré les compressions, on 2 est quand même sensible à la couverture des régions. 3 On fait des efforts pour desservir l'ensemble des 4 régions. On travaille aussi en étroite collaboration 5 avec la télévision, et Louise Imbeault, ma collègue, 6 Directrice de la télévision, pourra en parler. 7 1601 La seule manière qu'on réussit nous à 8 couvrir l'ensemble des quatre provinces de l'Atlantique 9 c'est en partageant nos ressources radio et télévision. 10 Les journalistes télé desservent également la radio. 11 On a des bureaux journalistiques télévision un peu 12 partout dans l'ensemble des provinces de l'Atlantique. 13 1602 Alors, avec ces ressources, on essaie 14 tant bien que mal de desservir l'ensemble des 15 communautés acadiennes et francophones en Atlantique, 16 et tranquillement, pas vite, on essaie de déployer et 17 les ressources qu'on a ajouté à Charlottetown et à 18 Caraquet. C'est simplement des ressources qu'on avait 19 à Moncton qu'on a réparti sur le territoire et on 20 espère dans les prochaines années pouvoir le faire 21 encore davantage. 22 1603 Alors, ceci dit, je vous remercie 23 aussi et je dois dire que les interventions, même du 24 côté qui s'adressaient à la radio et à la télévision de 25 la CBC, j'ai trouvé les interventions aujourd'hui très StenoTran 310 1 intéressantes. Il y a certainement des remarques et 2 des recommandations et des suggestions qui pourront 3 également s'appliquer à la manière que nous on gère la 4 radiodiffusion en Atlantique. 5 1604 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci. 6 1605 Oui. 7 1606 MME IMBEAULT: J'écoute les 8 délibérations depuis 1 h cet après-midi et je veux 9 simplement vous dire un mot, la synthèse, peut-être que 10 je ferais de ça, mais je pense qu'elle est 11 d'importance. 12 1607 Mon nom est Louise Imbeault. Je suis 13 la Directrice de la télévision de Radio-Canada pour les 14 provinces Atlantique. Autrement dit, je suis la 15 vis-à-vis de M. Mattocks excepté que nous on a une 16 seule station pour quatre provinces. Alors, on doit 17 multiplier les efforts. 18 1608 Il n'y a pas de commentaires qui se 19 sont faits aujourd'hui que je ne connaissais pas déjà. 20 Je pense que les gens à Radio-Canada connaissent bien 21 les attentes du public. Ce que j'ai trouvé 22 extraordinatire, par exemple, puis que je voudrais dire 23 c'est que depuis 12 ans, moi, que je suis Directrice de 24 la télévision, à chaque fois que je suis allé à des 25 délibérations ou des audiences, j'ai souvent entendu StenoTran 311 1 des gens, par exemple, venir dire que Radio-Canada 2 faisait une compétition déloyale à certains producteurs 3 privés ou à certaines entreprises privées, que par 4 exemple on utilisait des fonds publics pour faire des 5 reportages que peut-être on devrait pas faire et des 6 choses comme ça, des gens qui avaient des intérêts à 7 démolir Radio-Canada. 8 1609 Or, aujourd'hui, ce qu'on a entendu 9 toute la journée, et je pense que c'est capital, ce 10 sont des citoyens et des citoyennes, des gens, des 11 Canadiens, des Canadiennes qui sont venus dire, cette 12 radio et cette télévision, on la veut publique, 13 c'est-à-dire on la veut au service des Canadiens et des 14 Canadiennes. On la veut au service des citoyens et on 15 veut plus. On n'en veut pas moins. 16 1610 Et ça c'est le message tout à fait 17 contraire que celui qu'on lit généralement dans les 18 journaux où on dit, il ne faudrait pas faire ci, il ne 19 faudrait pas faire ça. Ça coûte trop cher. C'est pas 20 ça qu'on a entendu aujourd'hui. 21 1611 On a entendu, ça coûte quelque chose 22 mais il faut le faire, il faut le faire bien, et il 23 faut le faire pour les citoyens et les citoyennes dans 24 un pays démocratique. Il faut le faire pour une radio 25 et une télévision publique indépendantes. Et ça je StenoTran 312 1 trouve que c'est capital et ça n'aurait fait que ça, et 2 le CRTC ne pourrait véhiculer que ce message-là que ça 3 serait déjà presqu'une révolution. 4 1612 Merci. 5 --- Applause / Applaudissements 6 1613 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Livingstone has 7 just arrived. 8 2115 9 1614 Everybody has made a presentation, 10 and the CBC has now just finished commenting on the 11 presentation. You were last on the list, so you are 12 welcome to make your presentation now. 13 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 14 1615 MR. LIVINGSTONE: My name is Neil 15 Livingstone, and I just came from premiering my new 16 film at the university, and we were the night before in 17 Halifax. It is a pleasure to be in Sydney, because I 18 am rarely here, even though I live on the other side of 19 the island. 20 1616 I have a documentary film and video 21 production company called Black River Productions 22 Limited. Basically, I want to address some of the 23 issues at hand tonight and also talk a little bit about 24 independent documentary producers relative to CBC 25 television nationally. StenoTran 313 1 1617 I think from my perspective, as 2 someone who has both listened to CBC most of my life 3 and lived in an area where CBC really wasn't available 4 for some years, and then we got local tower near us it 5 is something I listened to -- and because we don't have 6 satellite and we don't have cable where I live, it is 7 actually the only television station we get. So we 8 don't have a lot of choice on that level. 9 1618 I am of the opinion that radio is 10 suffering because of lack of funding and that it needs 11 more funding; and television to some degree as well. I 12 am fairly current on different reports that have been 13 written over the last 10 or 15 years about the CBC. 14 Most of the things relative to those conclusions I 15 don't see being implemented very fast. 16 1619 Interestingly enough, relative to the 17 funding issue, I was one of a group of 25 documentary 18 film makers a year that are chosen to go over to the 19 United Kingdom and meet programmers from television 20 there. I was over in the middle of November and we had 21 David Doherty, one of the controllers for the BBC, and 22 he stood up and said: "Listen, we are going into the 23 next millennium. We have huge amounts of funds. We 24 are a very, very aggressive public corporation. We 25 have just opened up a station in the States called BBC StenoTran 314 1 America, and we are going full tilt." 2 1620 Certainly, I don't see this happening 3 with CBC. I feel that there is no reason, given the 4 right funding structure, why CBC could not be equally 5 as aggressive, both nationally and internationally, as 6 the BBC is doing. I think far too often we are looking 7 at American models. 8 1621 That is the general kind of comments 9 I have on that. 10 1622 I was very impressed by him, 11 actually, because we rarely hear -- 12 1623 I don't know if everyone is aware, 13 but in Britain you have to pay 100 pounds a year for 14 your television set, which I guess in our terms would 15 be equal to paying about $100 a year. It's what makes 16 it happen. We will never have that in Canada, but 17 certainly we have ways of generating revenue for the 18 public broadcaster. 19 1624 What I want to focus on is television 20 in terms of documentaries and some of the problems that 21 producers still have in this region relative to working 22 with the national broadcaster from out of Toronto and 23 also doing work with them. 24 1625 For the most part, most of what I 25 would call the mature professional documentary StenoTran 315 1 independent producers in this region still have never, 2 or maybe only once -- most of us I would say never in 3 Nova Scotia -- made a program for the network, for 4 Channel 1 on the network; not Newsworld but CBC 5 primarily. 6 1626 I have been making films for 30 7 years, since I was 12 years old, and I still have never 8 had a program broadcast on the network. This, I think, 9 is really a problem, and it is a problem that I think 10 the CRTC should address. Some of these issues have 11 been addressed by the Canadian Independent Film Caucus 12 before you. 13 1627 I was one of the founding members of 14 the chapter in this region, and also was the national 15 liaison before there was a chapter in this region. I 16 know that regularly the Film Caucus is presenting 17 before you on issues, and obviously I am in agreement 18 with most of what they are saying. 19 1628 I think it is unfortunate that we 20 don't have programming of documentary that is more 21 open. I think the public wants more open programming 22 of documentary. Too often, I think when we look at the 23 strands that are available for documentary, what we 24 find is copycat programming from the States. We find 25 "Witness" like "Witness" in the States; we find "Life StenoTran 316 1 and Times" like "Life and Times" in the States; we find 2 "History" like "History" in the States. 3 1629 Personally, I find it kind of 4 offensive and embarrassing, both as a member of the 5 public and as a producer. What I see in the production 6 community across Canada is an incredible pool of 7 talent. What television continues to do through its 8 programmers as gatekeepers in documentary is that we 9 tend to see a narrowing of what the public is allowed 10 to see. We see programs that all look the same, more 11 or less; the programmers want them to look the same. 12 1630 In fact, we live in a society that is 13 very diverse, and in fact the creative producers of 14 productions have the ability to produce programs that 15 don't all look the same. Increasingly, that is what is 16 being demanded. 17 1631 Part of that is also corporate 18 concentration. There is no doubt that when you look at 19 the "Witness" lineup for this year, some companies have 20 two and three programs on that show, and there are only 21 26 programs in a year. So there are very few 22 opportunities for those of us who don't live in 23 Toronto, or rub shoulders with them regularly, to get 24 in. 25 1632 I think it is very interesting. I StenoTran 317 1 think the CRTC at these hearings could really push on 2 this issue. Again, I relegate it back to the public. 3 I think one of the things the public -- there is so 4 much more that television could be and television could 5 do. My expertise really is in documentary. I think it 6 is important to push the public broadcaster on that. 7 1633 I had a conversation with Sheila 8 Copps this summer about how the whole public funding 9 system works with the Cable Production Fund and 10 Telefilm. Personally, as an individual and not as a 11 film-maker, what I see are large amounts of public 12 funds going to things like producer fees on series and 13 things like that. In effect, what we are doing is, 14 through public funding, we are paying large salaries on 15 those things without any other marketing success of the 16 product. 17 1634 If I am successful enough in selling 18 a series to CBC nationally as a drama series or as a 19 producer, I am going to make a hefty salary, mostly 20 based on public funding. I don't have problems with 21 people making high salaries, but I think they should 22 come from sales and other markets. 23 1635 I think that much more of the public 24 funding could be spread broader to the community of 25 production people if there were caps. The Minister's StenoTran 318 1 response was: "I couldn't care less as long as there 2 is high-quality Canadian programming. I don't care if 3 it is coming from big stations or little stations." 4 1636 I know, for instance, the National 5 Film Board has done some research into where money is 6 going and things like that. 7 1637 There is a high level of 8 concentration. I don't think it is healthy, because 9 when you want regional diversification you need to 10 force that in different ways. One of the ways is to 11 make funding be spread. 12 1638 I know that CBC regionally, Fred has 13 done quite a reasonable job in trying to get more on 14 the screens produced locally. But it is almost as if 15 most of us will never ever in our careers achieve 16 getting on the national network. 17 1639 In fact, what is really incredible is 18 that most of the producers in this region now would not 19 have had careers if it wasn't for Vision TV in this 20 decade, because it is only vision that is willing to 21 give us broadcast licences and then let us get Telefilm 22 funding and Nova Scotia Film Development funding. 23 1640 As senior producers, this is not a 24 good deal for the public, and things should be more 25 open on that level. StenoTran 319 1 1641 If I am correct, we have about ten 2 minutes for me, and I think I have probably talked for 3 about five. So I would be happy to entertain questions 4 if you have some. I figure that that is a good way to 5 divide up the time. 6 1642 THE CHAIRPERSON: You did prompt a 7 couple of questions. 8 1643 First of all, when you first started 9 talking, you said radio is suffering from a lack of 10 funding and television somewhat as well. 11 1644 Is it your view that radio is 12 suffering more than television from lack of funding? 13 1645 MR. LIVINGSTONE: I listen to radio 14 more than I watch television. This is how I am; but I 15 do watch some television. In terms of the ability of 16 radio to produce well, I think it has suffered more in 17 the cutbacks than television in what I see. Part of 18 that, of course, is because what the federal government 19 has done with the Cable Fund is they have pumped huge 20 amounts of money outside of CBC, but basically that 21 directly feeds into CBC television. 22 1646 I remember "Ideas" 10 or 15 years 23 ago, the amounts of money someone would get to produce 24 a four-part "Ideas" show was more than they would even 25 pay now, or equal to it. And this is almost 20 years StenoTran 320 1 ago I am talking about. 2 1647 I remember someone I knew in 3 Vancouver, Jurgen Hessop, produced a number of shows, 4 and they were impeccably researched. I don't think 5 that that is really possible to do any more. 6 1648 As someone who researches projects 7 and works on them for a year at least to make a film, I 8 see radio as being very thin these days on that level. 9 To me, it is a tremendous disappointment because it has 10 been part of my life to listen to CBC radio. 11 1649 In terms of the Internet and some of 12 the new technologies that are going on, I think that 13 the level of penetration that the CBC is doing now on 14 those areas is reasonable. If I was asked a question 15 of "where should the money go", I would certainly say 16 it should go into the traditional forms, be it 17 broadcast television and radio. 18 1650 THE CHAIRPERSON: My understanding -- 19 and Mr. Mattocks can correct me if I am wrong -- is 20 that the CBC is proposing to spend about $40 million on 21 developing the Internet. 22 1651 MR. MATTOCKS: God, it has doubled 23 since I last heard; $20 million is the figure that I am 24 familiar with. 25 1652 THE CHAIRMAN: Is it $20 million? So StenoTran 321 1 you would argue that that sort of money should be going 2 into -- 3 1653 MR. LIVINGSTONE: No. What I said 4 was that I think that the level of penetration that 5 they are working on in terms of the Internet is quite 6 appropriate. I would not like to see the balance 7 shifting hugely and heavily in terms of funding toward 8 Internet, which would drain further funds out of 9 television and radio. I think that the level they are 10 doing it now is a pretty good bang for the buck. 11 1654 THE CHAIRPERSON: Most of your 12 comments were related to the issues of documentaries 13 and the problems with respect to this region and 14 getting on the air. Andrew Cochran is here and was 15 commenting earlier on some of the programming. 16 1655 I guess with some of the comedy 17 programs and drama programs, either one-ofs or series, 18 this region has done relatively well, I would think, in 19 terms of getting on the network. 20 1656 Is your comment and your concern 21 particularly with respect to documentaries? 22 1657 MR. LIVINGSTONE: Totally, yes. 23 Documentary has not followed suit with that to any 24 great degree. There has been a little bit of work done 25 by some producers with some of those main programs, but StenoTran 322 1 I don't think proportionately. 2 1658 I also don't think the degree to 3 which the talent pool exists here -- I know the 4 documentary community across Canada, and because of 5 circumstances that existed about 20 years ago here, 6 where there wasn't craft work, many people developed as 7 film makers and are very talented professionals now. 8 1659 It has been a very good few years for 9 most of us really, but we are still not getting through 10 to the network. All of us, I think, have the ability 11 and professionalism to be there, and should have been 12 there years ago. 13 1660 I remember having a conversation with 14 Bob Culver, who was the director of "current affairs" 15 at that point. I said to him: "You know, Bob, I could 16 program the documentary strands out of my home in 17 Mabou." It is not that difficult to look at what is 18 being made across the country. It doesn't have to come 19 out of downtown Toronto. It could come out of Halifax; 20 it could come out of Vancouver. 21 1661 The concentration of programmers -- 22 and there is a culture to CBC in a central office, and 23 most of the documentary programmers in fact had their 24 early careers at "The Journal". 25 1662 It is very markedly and tonally and StenoTran 323 1 content-driven coming out of that kind of a background. 2 I just think that much more could be done on that 3 level. I think that those kinds of programs could be 4 programmed out of regions, and things like that. 5 1663 I am very big on decentralization on 6 that level, because I think it gives a national flavour 7 to Canadians, the same as "This Hour Has 22 Minutes" 8 being produced from this region. You have different 9 flavours in different parts of the country. I don't 10 see that, nationally, the network is doing that with 11 documentary, and they should. 12 1664 From the position of the CRTC, it is 13 certainly a very hard thing to direct the CBC what to 14 do, but I think it would be very useful to push them in 15 the hearings on some of those issues. 16 1665 THE CHAIRPERSON: Why do you think we 17 have been relatively successful with comedy and drama 18 and not with documentaries? Certainly folks at the 19 network in Toronto and people like Fred and others here 20 and people like Bill Donovan have pushed very hard and 21 have been somewhat successful. 22 1666 Why haven't we been able to achieve 23 that with documentaries? 24 1667 MR. LIVINGSTONE: Again, I think it 25 is relatively just an historical situation, in that StenoTran 324 1 programmers for documentary exclusively, I believe, 2 outside of "Canadian Reflections", all are people who 3 came out of hard news, national television news 4 programming, being "The Journal"; and at being 5 journalists/programmers, most of the programs end up 6 looking and feeling like that, more or less. That is 7 the historical background of that. 8 1668 When you look at what is on 9 television in the U.K., for instance, there is a much 10 broader sense of what documentary is. Canadian 11 producers are tremendous producers of documentary on a 12 broad level, and that is not being very well 13 represented on the network. 14 1669 One other point I forgot to make 15 relative to that is that almost bizarrely I have had an 16 easier time selling my documentaries to the U.K. I 17 have sold to Channel 4 in BBC and in another network 18 there. In some ways it has been easier, living in this 19 region, to sell to the U.K. than it has been to sell to 20 Toronto. 21 1670 I am not talking individually. We 22 have had very good communications as a documentary 23 community. And the kind of reality that I live in is 24 not my own special reality. I have friends all over 25 the country who are documentary film-makers, and it is StenoTran 325 1 not just specific to this region, the kinds of things I 2 am talking about. 3 1671 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 4 much. 5 1672 Did you wish to make any further 6 comments? 7 1673 Then that concludes our session in 8 Sydney. I want to thank all of those who participated 9 and gave their comments. Every one of them, in my 10 view, was excellent and well thought out. Obviously, 11 everybody here spoke with a lot of passion and concern 12 about the CBC and what it means to the lives of people 13 who live here in Cape Breton and indeed this region. 14 1674 It has been very helpful for us to 15 get a better understanding about what the concerns are. 16 I appreciate the welcomes that many people gave for us 17 to come to Sydney; and I must say, for our part, I am 18 glad we came to Sydney. 19 1675 As some of you would know, I live in 20 Halifax, which I have learned over time is to Nova 21 Scotia and the Maritime Region what Toronto is to 22 Canada -- if you are from outside of Halifax. But we 23 can tolerate criticism, nonetheless. 24 1676 Again, I want to thank all of you for 25 your presentations. They were very thoughtful and very StenoTran 326 1 helpful to us in our deliberations. 2 1677 With that, we will adjourn today's 3 session. There is one starting in Moncton tomorrow. 4 1678 This is the first one. I think the 5 whole issue of these public consultations has got off 6 to an excellent start. I thank you all very much. 7 --- Whereupon the consultation adjourned at 2130/ 8 Le consultation est ajournée à 2130 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 StenoTran
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