ARCHIVED -  Transcript

This page has been archived on the Web

Information identified as archived is provided for reference, research or recordkeeping purposes. It is not subject to the Government of Canada Web Standards and has not been altered or updated since it was archived. Please contact us to request a format other than those available.

Providing Content in Canada's Official Languages

Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.



                       SUBJECT / SUJET:

                  SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

Confederation Centre                    Condederation Centre
of the Arts                             of the Arts
Memorial Hall                           Memorial Hall
145 Richard Street                      145, rue Richard
Charlottetown, P.E.I.                   Charlottetown (Î.-P.-É)

March 11, 1999                          Le 11 mars 1999

tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668


In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.


Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.


                 Canadian Radio-television and
                 Telecommunications Commission

              Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
                télécommunications canadiennes

                  Transcript / Transcription

              Public Hearing / Audience publique

                  SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)


Françoise Bertrand                      Chairperson / Présidente
                                        Chairperson of the
                                        Commission / Présidente
                                        du Conseil

Stuart Langford                         Commissioner / Conseiller


Alastair Stewart                        Commission Counsel /
                                        Avocat du Conseil
                                        Secretary / Secrétaire

Brien Rodger                            Director, Halifax 
                                        Regional Office /
                                        Directeur, Bureau régional
                                        de Halifax

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

Confederation Centre                    Condederation Centre
of the Arts                             of the Arts
Memorial Hall                           Memorial Hall
145 Richard Street                      145, rue Richard
Charlottetown, P.E.I.                   Charlottetown (Î.-P.-É)

March 11, 1999                          Le 11 mars 1999





Presentation by / Présentation par:

Ms Barbara Bloom                                             5

Mr. Loran Fevens                                            10

Mr. Terry Pratt                                             21

Mr. Bill Hoof                                               28

Mrs. Sally Blake Hoof                                       31

Ms Theresa Doyle                                            39

Mr. James MacNutt, Q.C.                                     48

Ms Laura Mair                                               56

Mr. Vince MacIntyre                                         64

Ms Hélène Smith                                             74

Ms Madrien Ferris                                           90

Ms Catherine Hennessey                                      92

Mr. Kip Smith                                               94

Mr. William Minnis                                         105

Mr. Eric Silva and Ms Betty Andric                         111

Mr. Robert Boyer                                           119

M. Benoît Henri                                            129

Mr. Terry MacCabe                                          134

Mr. Tony Reddin                                            140

Mr. Angus Orford                                           143

Mr. Nils Ling                                              148

Ms Betty Howatt                                            157





Presentation by / Présentation par:

Ms Andrea Simpson                                          164

Ms Laurie Brinklow                                         170

Mr. David Doughton                                         179

Mr. Ian Dennison                                           183

Hon. Patrick Binns                                         195

Mr. Leo Broderick                                          208

Mr. Leo Cheverie                                           213

Dr. Phillip Smith                                          221

Ms Jennifer Shields                                        226

Ms Mary Boyd                                               230

Ms Sandi MacKinnon                                         237

Ms Ann Sherman                                             244

Ms Colleen Pidgeon                                         253

Mr. Peter Baker                                            258

Mr. Richard Carson                                         263

Mr. Bernard Callaghan                                      268

Mr. Reg Pendergast                                         275

Dr. Ian MacQuarrie                                         283

Mr. Ron Irving                                             286

Mr. Ken Williams                                           291

Mr. Robert Donnelly                                        298

Mr. Frank Driscoll                                         306





Presentation by / Présentation par:

Ms Jane Ledwell                                            316

Ms Vlan Emery                                              321

M. Antoine Richard                                         324

Ms Edith Perry                                             334

Mme Marie-Claire Paulin-Karé                               340

M. Alex Robert                                             343

Ms Mary MacNeil                                            347

Reply by / Réplique par:

Ms Susan Mitton                                        188/353

M. Jules Chiasson                                          354



 1                Charlottetown, P.E.I. / Charlottetown (I.-P.-É)
 2     ---  Upon commencing on Thursday, March 11, 1999
 3          at 1300 / L'audience reprend le jeudi
 4          11 mars 1999, à 1300
 5  1                    LA PRÉSIDENTE DU CONSEIL:  Alors, bon
 6     après-midi.  Bonjour.
 7  2                    Good day, ladies and gentlemen and
 8     welcome to this public consultation on the CBC.
 9  3                    My name is Françoise Bertrand and I
10     am the CRTC's Chairperson and please allow me to
11     introduce my fellow Commissioner, Stuart Langford.
12  4                    We are here to gather your views and
13     comments on CBC Radio and Television.  In your opinion,
14     how should the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation fulfil
15     its role in the coming years.  The CBC is a national
16     public service broadcasting in English as well as in
17     French.  It plays an important role in the Canadian
18     broadcasting system.
19  5                    Today many elements are constantly
20     being added to the broadcasting system as new
21     technologies multiply, converge, open up new horizons
22     and increasingly offer new services.  In this context,
23     we want to know what are your needs and expectations as
24     viewers and listeners of the CBC.
25  6                    Given that, it is very important that


 1     the Commission hears what you have to say.  We must not
 2     lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public
 3     organization that serves Canadian citizens, in this
 4     capacity we are responsible to you.  This is why my
 5     fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to come
 6     and meet with you to discuss these issues and why we
 7     are holding this series of regional consultations from
 8     one end of the country to the other in relevant
 9     Canadian cities from March 9th to 18th.
10  7                    These consultations are designed to
11     give you a chance on the eve of a new millennium to
12     express your opinion on the CBC's role, the programming
13     it offers and the direction it should take at the
14     national, regional and local levels.  Through these
15     consultations, we hope to enter into an open dialogue
16     with you and to hear your concerns.  Your comments will
17     form part of the public record which will be added to
18     the record of the public hearing on the CBC that will
19     begin in Hull next May 25th.
20  8                    At this upcoming hearing, the
21     Commission will examine the CBC's application for the
22     renewal of its licences, including radio, television
23     and its specialty services, Newsworld and Réseau de
24     l'information.  You can also take part in that public
25     hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC.


 1  9                    If you wish to do so, please remember
 2     to refer to the specific licence renewals being
 3     examined when you file your comments.
 4  10                   Now, I would like to come back to
 5     today's consultations.  Please allow me to introduce
 6     the CRTC staff who will be assisting us today.
 7  11                   Alastair Stewart, our legal
 8     counsel -- I was looking for him on the right side
 9     because that's where he was yesterday.  I apologize,
10     Alastair.  And Brien Rodger, the Director of our
11     Halifax Regional office.
12  12                   Please feel free to call on them with
13     any questions you might have about the process today or
14     any other matter.
15  13                   So that you all will have the
16     opportunity to speak, we ask that you please limit your
17     presentation to ten minutes.  As these consultations
18     are a forum designed especially for you and we want to
19     listen to as many participants as possible we will not
20     ask any questions unless we need clarification.
21  14                   At the end of this session
22     representatives from the local CBC stations will have a
23     chance to offer their views as they are naturally very
24     interested by the issues we are discussing here today.
25  15                   Before we start, I would ask our


 1     legal counsel, Mr. Stewart, to go over some of the
 2     housekeeping matters regarding the conduct of this
 3     consultation.
 4  16                   Bon après-midi.
 5  17                   MR. STEWART:  Merci, Madame la
 6     Présidente.  Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
 7  18                   Presenters are invited to speak into
 8     the microphone when making their presentations and
 9     before speaking if you would press on the white button
10     to activate the system so that your comments will be
11     transcribed for the public record.
12  19                   And at the end of your presentation,
13     if you'd be good enough to again press on the white
14     button to turn the system off to avoid any echo.
15  20                   We have a simultaneous translation
16     available and the headsets are available from the
17     people where the technical gear is located at the front
18     of the room, so please feel free to obtain that for
19     simultaneous translation.
20  21                   I believe that's all that needs to be
21     said on housekeeping details, Madame la Présidente, and
22     with your permission, I will invite the first speaker.
23                                                        1313
24  22                   I now invite Ms Barbara Bloom to make
25     her presentation.


 2  23                   MS BLOOM:  Good afternoon.  My name
 3     is Barbara Bloom, B-l-o-o-m, and I have given a copy of
 4     my statement to Brian.
 5  24                   Can you hear me?
 6  25                   THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
 7     Very well, thank you.
 8  26                   MS BLOOM:  Okay.
 9  27                   I lived the first 38 years of my life
10     in the United States; I have now been living in Canada,
11     first in Saskatoon for 26 years and now near
12     Charlottetown since last July.
13  28                   Perhaps you can appreciate my joy at
14     discovering the CBC shortly after my arrival in 1972. 
15     It is a joy that continues to this date with increasing
16     reservation since all of the cutbacks began.
17  29                   I am much more of a radio person than
18     a television person, though I will watch important and
19     well executed television programming.  Even when I
20     lived where I had more TV programming choices -- I
21     don't believe in cable -- I mostly watch the CBC.  Now,
22     that is all I can receive, but no one should say,
23     "Well, I'm a captive audience" because I can turn it
24     off.  But I still find the CBC TV adequate for my TV
25     needs.


 1  30                   I enjoy many of the TV evening
 2     programs as my time permits, but faithfully watch the
 3     news, that is if the news is on at 10:00, it often gets
 4     bumped for some silly reason.
 5  31                   The CBC provides the kinds of
 6     programs that I enjoy.  Almost always while I'm
 7     watching TV I am, however, also taping programs like
 8     "Ideas" and "The Arts Today" on my radio.  I will be
 9     taping during the day and on weekends I listen to Radio
10     Two almost all of the time, selecting a few programs
11     from Radio One.  And if two of my programs are on at
12     the same time, I tape one for later use.
13  32                   You will hardly find a more serious
14     CBC fan than I.
15  33                   When do I listen to these tapes?  I
16     listen to them on airplanes, in the car, in the middle
17     of the night when I can't sleep, which sometimes
18     happens, while I'm working out, except I haven't
19     figured out how to get the tape into the swimming pool
20     with me.  Whenever.  And I don't seem to have any
21     trouble finding the time to listen to these tapes.
22  34                   One thing about radio, it is possible
23     to carry on most other solo activities while also
24     listening.  I do have long periods of time by myself,
25     but I am far from a recluse.  My oldest grandchild,


 1     incidentally, is beginning to listen to CBC Radio,
 2     having discovered it through my listening and he likes
 3     "Perks and Quirks", which we call "Q & Q" and also
 4     classical music.
 5  35                   Despite all my enthusiasm, I had a
 6     lot of worries about the CBC.  In the 27 years of my
 7     listening, I have seen the dreadful effects of the
 8     cutbacks.
 9  36                   I suspect that, like the cutbacks at
10     universities and in hospitals, there has been little
11     shrinking of the administrative personnel and budgets,
12     but front-line workers have had to do more and more
13     with less and less, and less and less of remuneration
14     and visible appreciation.  We can see it on TV or hear
15     it on the radio this cutting back.  It's very obvious. 
16     And seeing it and hearing it irritates us.  I have not
17     yet forgiven CBC for having eliminated "Sunday
18     Morning", for example.
19  37                   I can tolerate radio reruns to a
20     certain extent, but TV reruns are revolting.  I find
21     something else to do.  It's easy for me to find
22     something else to do, I have no problem.  If nothing
23     else, I'm studying German, that should keep me busy for
24     the rest of my life.
25  38                   In addition to the irritation, some


 1     new ideas for programming make me, and many other
 2     people, angry.  There are at least two innovations that
 3     make me very angry, the eleven o'clock time warp
 4     instant replay of the news on TV and the starvation and
 5     strangulation of radio -- programming for both TV and
 6     radio.
 7  39                   With reference to the first one. 
 8     Having an instant replay of the news is boring.  But
 9     more importantly, it bumps the regional news to 11:30
10     p.m. and many of us cannot stay up to midnight to see
11     the regional news.  And the people who can't stay up to
12     see the regional news are people like me, natural
13     early-morning risers.  I have awakened at 6:00 in the
14     morning every day of my life, I think.  To sleep in for
15     me is to sleep till 7:30.  I can't wait and go to bed
16     at midnight, because I will still wake up at 6:00, you
17     can't do that, and there are lots of people like me.
18  40                   But of course, there are also people
19     who must get up and go to work.  All of my children --
20     all of my adult children are out by 6:00 or 6:30 in the
21     morning to get to work.  They have got to go to bed at
22     night.  And anyone who has ever had a young child knows
23     you don't sleep in, so you have got to go to bed at
24     night.
25  41                   So if we're going to handle -- and


 1     then those three categories take care of a lot of
 2     people.  If we're going to meet those needs for seeing
 3     regional news, we can't put it on at 11:30 at night and
 4     expect people to stay up till midnight.
 5  42                   With regard to the second irritation,
 6     there's practically nothing left of regional
 7     programming.  This is a dreadful situation because we
 8     are a vibrant, alive community.  All of Saskatoon,
 9     Saskatchewan, all of -- they, as well as here -- we're
10     now beginning to become acquainted -- we need a way to
11     communicate with each other and to inform and display
12     to one another our special stamp on life.
13  43                   There's more to Canada than Toronto. 
14     It frightens me that if things continue as they are
15     going in a few more years all that we will have to show
16     for this beautiful vast, diverse and vibrant country,
17     whether by radio, TV or newsprint is Toronto's notions
18     of life as it is or as it should be.
19  44                   And then lastly, I do not see the
20     purported bias of the CBC.  I think evidence of
21     balanced programming is the observation that not only
22     this government and some of its followers but also the
23     government before that and some of their followers and
24     before that and before that and before that -- for as
25     long as I have been in Canada anyway, they all have had


 1     the same complaint.  What is big government afraid of? 
 2     What would worry me more would be if the CBC became
 3     simply a propaganda machine for political winners.
 4  45                   Pertinent to this, incidentally, is
 5     the question, "Where is Terry Milewsky anyway?"
 6  46                   I hope you and the CBC will seriously
 7     consider my comments and accept them with the sincerity
 8     in which they are submitted.  Barbara Bloom.
 9  47                   THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
10     Thank you very much, Mrs. Bloom.
11  48                   It's true, I'm an early riser, too,
12     so I can understand that we don't like very much to
13     finish late.
14  49                   Thank you very much for your
15     participation, it's very helpful.
16  50                   Mr. Stewart?
17                                                        1319
18  51                   MR. STEWART:  I now invite Mr. Loran
19     Fevens to speak, and I apologize, sir, if I have
20     mispronounced your name.
22  52                   MR. FEVENS:  No, you're right on as a
23     matter of fact.  Thank you.  Good afternoon.
24  53                   First I would say thank you to the
25     CRTC for offering us this opportunity to do so and


 1     recommend that in this day of modern technology, you
 2     would get a considerable wider cross-section of opinion
 3     if you use your Web site for opinions to be received by
 4     a much larger audience than what's here or than what
 5     will be in the 14 sites across the country.  That's
 6     just a suggestion.
 7  54                   You have a good Web site, I don't
 8     quite understand why you don't use it for that reason,
 9     really.
10  55                   I don't usually work with a script,
11     but it's important for me this afternoon to say exactly
12     what I have in mind.  I have worked with a microphone
13     for 35 years and normally they don't make me nervous,
14     but for some reason or other this whole situation is a
15     bit intimidating this afternoon, so bear with me.
16  56                   There has never been a time in my
17     life, that now spans more than half a century, when the
18     Canadian Broadcasting Corporation has not had a
19     profound impact on what I understand Canada to be and
20     who I am as a Canadian.
21  57                   My generation, born in the closing
22     years of the Second World War and in the fairy tale
23     years of the late forties, was the first to experience
24     that impact in my hometown of Yarmouth, Nova Scotia. 
25     As we got to know the rest of the country through the


 1     local CBC affiliate radio station, CJLS, and then
 2     eventually sat fascinated in our darkened living rooms
 3     to watch a snowy, barely visible image from CBHT in
 4     Halifax.
 5  58                   For the quarter of a century before
 6     then, the strong, clear signals of radio stations in
 7     Boston and New York and Philadelphia and Portland,
 8     Maine left the residents of this small Nova Scotia
 9     fishing community feeling more like Americans than
10     Canadians.  And I'm quite certain that this condition
11     existed in this country's communities, large and small,
12     all along the national border that we share with the
13     United States.
14  59                   There is no doubt in my mind, none,
15     that the creation and the growth of the CBC changed how
16     we saw ourselves as Canadians, indeed, assured us that
17     we were uniquely Canadians and not just a cultural and
18     emotional extension of New England.
19  60                   It's interesting to see this problem,
20     if you will, resurface half a century later through the
21     cable television systems which bring a Massachusetts
22     television signal from most major American networks
23     into the majority of homes here on Prince Edward
24     Island.
25  61                   So if we ever needed a strong


 1     Canadian public broadcaster presence on the Island, and
 2     indeed in the rest of the country, I think it is
 3     certainly right now.
 4  62                   I would like to address the last two
 5     questions of the four suggested by the Commission for
 6     this session.  I would prefer not to reply to the first
 7     two, because I actually feel that any responses would
 8     be really entirely a matter of opinion built on
 9     individual expectations.  And I think it's more
10     important to reflect on what the CBC should be as
11     Canada's national public broadcaster, rather than what
12     it is or what it has been.
13  63                   What it was in the 1950s, with
14     hindsight, seems to have been right for the 1950s. 
15     What it should be as we move into the third millennium
16     needs to be viewed in light of the new realities of the
17     dramatically changing communication tools we have at
18     our disposal, like the Internet, as I mentioned.  The
19     dramatically different programming philosophies
20     practised by the private broadcast sector, and the
21     dramatically fickle viewing and listening habits of
22     Canadians, especially those under the age of 25.
23  64                   Sorry, I don't mean to sound as
24     though I'm being unkind, but that's statistically true.
25  65                   Should the programming provided by


 1     CBC Radio and Television be different from that
 2     provided by other broadcasters?  If so, what should
 3     these differences be?  That's question 3 essentially.
 4  66                   Over the last 25 years, private radio
 5     stations in Canada, generally speaking, have become not
 6     much more than jukeboxes.  And in most cases, each
 7     playing its own narrow, age-targeted music.
 8  67                   Newscasts have either been reduced to
 9     sound bites at best, or completely eliminated during
10     much of the day.  Any role as a mirror of the community
11     it serves has been swallowed up in the competition to
12     play the most music in any 15-minute block.
13  68                   Private network television isn't
14     doing much better.  We're fed a steady diet of
15     so-called sitcoms, which degrade women and men alike,
16     and leave our kids emulating characters who, in real
17     life we wouldn't allow near us.  With a few notable
18     exceptions, private television in Canada seems to have
19     settled for the lowest common denominator in its
20     program scheduling.
21  69                   So, should CBC Radio and Television
22     be different?  I think the obvious answer is
23     absolutely.
24  70                   What should those differences be? 
25     Well, a balanced program that provides a fair,


 1     interesting, informative and entertaining mosaic -- and
 2     I hate that word, but it's the only one I could think
 3     about -- entertaining mosaic of Canada's music, news,
 4     public affairs, concerns and opinions.
 5  71                   The public broadcaster also needs to
 6     strive to be that mirror that I spoke about, reflecting
 7     not only our national personality, but the personality
 8     of the local communities its individual stations
 9     serve -- and more of that then we get.
10  72                   I sometimes wonder if the baby was
11     thrown out with the bath water when the corporation
12     moved to eliminate its affiliation with scores of small
13     private stations across the country in favour of more
14     centralized owned and operated outlets.  As I recall my
15     years as an announcer with several of these stations in
16     Nova Scotia during the sixties, the arrangement was a
17     good one, with the private broadcaster providing the
18     essential local service to the community and the
19     expertise and the resources of the CBC providing a
20     level of news coverage and diversity of program that
21     the small private broadcaster could not hope to match.
22  73                   I'm troubled by what seems to be a
23     high level opinion within the CBC management recently
24     that the corporation must do all it can to attract a
25     youth audience.


 1  74                   In a recent Canadian press feature
 2     written by John Mackay, he quoted CBC spokesperson,
 3     Ruth Ellen Soles(ph), as saying that the CBC has, for
 4     many years, been looking at ways to attract a younger
 5     audience.  And she went on to say, and I quote her
 6     here:
 7                            "If we don't continue to look at
 8                            the current marketplace and find
 9                            a place for us in the future,
10                            we're sunk."
11  75                   Now, that sounds very much to me like
12     an effort to win a ratings race.  No public
13     broadcaster, I don't think, should think in those
14     terms.  Those are private broadcaster priorities.
15  76                   The priority of the public
16     broadcaster in this country should be to provide
17     Canadians and all Canadians, if that's possible, with
18     the very best in alternative programming.  It's not a
19     question of competition with the private sector; it's a
20     question of complementing what the private sector is
21     already providing.
22  77                   Otherwise, the most significant
23     factor controlling program content will be that the
24     lowest common denominator I spoke about will result in
25     the ratings game that goes along with it.


 1  78                   The fact of the matter is, in most
 2     cases, as young people mature and move out into the
 3     world they're affected by many influences.  Time and
 4     again I have watched, over the years, the music tastes
 5     of teenagers that I know change significantly as they
 6     reach their late twenties and thirties.  And as they
 7     settle into the workforce and begin to build families,
 8     a wide range of concerns become important to them,
 9     politics, health care, the environment.
10  79                   And although I certainly believe that
11     programming for the young audience must be an essential
12     part of CBC planning, especially in television, I
13     firmly believe the majority of those young peoples who
14     will become the leaders of tomorrow's world of
15     information, leaders of their communities and leaders
16     of this country, will seek out the kind of programming
17     that the CBC has always excelled in.
18  80                   You don't have to go to them.  If you
19     examine the history and the legacy of the CBC you will
20     understand why they will come to you if you continue to
21     insist on the quality of workmanship and the content
22     that has long been recognized by broadcasters and the
23     public all over the world is second to none.
24  81                   For the last 14 years I have hosted a
25     weekly program of baroque and renaissance music on a


 1     number of national public radio stations in the United
 2     States and over and over again, program people that I
 3     deal with in those cities speak about the Canadian
 4     Broadcasting Corporation with a sense of awe and a
 5     sense of reverence.  And it is the programming
 6     differences of the CBC that has established this
 7     international reputation of excellence.
 8  82                   And now your last question -- and I
 9     will close with this briefly.
10  83                   Is there a special role that the CBC
11     should play in the presentation of Canadian
12     programming?
13  84                   My response to your question is
14     simply another simple question:  Isn't that special
15     role the primary raison d'être of a country's
16     publicly-funded broadcaster?
17  85                   When I turn on a CBC radio station or
18     a CBC television station it is Canada that I want to
19     see and what I want to hear in the programming.
20  86                   In closing, I would commend and thank
21     the brilliant men and women of the CBC who have, under
22     great, great difficulty, particularly in recent years,
23     provided this country and the world with programming of
24     the highest quality.  I would urge the leaders of the
25     CBC not to throw a 1999 baby out with the bath water as


 1     a result of trying to produce higher audience numbers.
 2  87                   Thank you for allowing me to speak to
 3     you this afternoon.
 4  88                   THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
 5     Thank you very much.  Would you accept to answer a few
 6     questions for my colleague, Mr. Langford?
 7  89                   COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  We have so
 8     many presenters I shouldn't be doing this, but I was
 9     interested in the fact that you're contributing
10     programming to PBS and you have a basis in
11     broadcasting.
12  90                   And I don't know whether you have
13     thought of this, if you haven't fine, no answer is an
14     answer.
15  91                   But, on the understanding whereas the
16     CRTC can regulate the broadcasting system, it doesn't
17     control funding.  I mean, that's one thing we can't do,
18     that's up to Mr. Paul Martin.
19  92                   So acting on an assumption that there
20     isn't more funding and that times are tight and money
21     is tight, are there things that you would suggest that
22     the CBC should focus on?  Are there things that it
23     shouldn't be doing?
24  93                   Should it be using its limited
25     resources in different ways?  Have you given that any


 1     thought at all?
 2  94                   MR. FEVENS:  I don't have a great
 3     deal of difficulty with what's being done by the CBC. 
 4     What I have a great deal of difficulty with is what
 5     seems to be talked about wanting to be done.
 6  95                   Changing the focus from the
 7     excellence in both documentary, news, music and so on
 8     to something which -- I guess I'm really concerned with
 9     what seems to be a desire to reach a younger audience. 
10     And the essence of my comments here is you don't have
11     to go after them, they're going to come to you
12     eventually and don't worry about the future.
13  96                   I guess, you know, you're assuming
14     that we have to stick with the amount of money that we
15     have to work with in the CBC.
16  97                   COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I have no
17     power over it --
18  98                   MR. FEVENS:  No, I know that.
19  99                   COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  -- so I'm
20     just assuming it for the --
21  100                  MR. FEVENS:  No, I understand that. 
22     But maybe we should also, as citizens, be lobbying for
23     more money for the CBC, too, or at least better
24     management of that money if nothing else.
25  101                  And having been a government employee


 1     for the last 15 years I can understand that management
 2     of the money is as important as the amount of money you
 3     have.  So it's a question of there needs to be some
 4     things done obviously.
 5  102                  But no, I like what's happening with
 6     the CBC, except, as I say, in this area of planning for
 7     the future sounds like they really want to change
 8     programming style to reach a younger audience.  I'm not
 9     sure that's -- I think it's throwing the baby out with
10     the bath water, as I say.
11  103                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thanks very
12     much.
13                                                        1333
14  104                  MR. STEWART:  All right.  I would
15     invite Mr. Terry Pratt to make his presentation.
17  105                  MR. PRATT:  Thank you very much.  And
18     thank you for letting us do this.  I want to speak only
19     about radio and chiefly about Radio One.
20  106                  What I think is unique about CBC
21     Radio in a place like Prince Edward Island is two
22     things.  The cultural level that it pitches its stuff
23     at and the combination of local, regional and national
24     coverage.
25  107                  Now, of course, we do have local


 1     radio here.  We have three stations, they're all under
 2     one management.  Look them up in the phone book you get
 3     all the same numbers in each one.  They do what they
 4     do, which from my point of view is chiefly loud music
 5     with loud advertising.
 6  108                  They, of course, have a popular
 7     following and that's fine.  But there's a very
 8     significant segment of this or any population that they
 9     do not consider their audience and that will never be
10     their audience, and I'm speaking of that level of
11     culture which deals with music of the kind that our
12     symphony plays.  We do have a local symphony, we do
13     have chamber music, we do have choral music,
14     considerably these things are on the CBC or they are
15     covered on the CBC.
16  109                  I'm speaking of what goes on in this
17     building, all the multifarious things that go on in
18     this building.  I'm speaking of theatre in general,
19     amateur and professional.  We have more theatre on this
20     Island, winter and summer, per capita than any place in
21     Canada.  Of course a lot of it is amateur, but it's
22     people getting out there and doing things, it's covered
23     on the CBC.  It's only covered on the other station if
24     you pay for the advertising.
25  110                  I'm talking about books.  Local books


 1     that are produced here and are talked about here.  I'm
 2     talking about the fact that this is a university town
 3     and so university events, all their kinds are covered
 4     or mentioned on the CBC.  Rare coverage, inadequate
 5     coverage on the other stations.
 6  111                  I'm talking about heritage.  Local
 7     stories of history and so on.
 8  112                  And I should also mention that we are
 9     a capital city, of course, so there's a lot of politics
10     goes on here and that's another kind of cultural level
11     that the other stations will not cover.  I think
12     essentially they are apolitical.  It's really not of
13     great interest to them.
14  113                  And of course we get analysis of the
15     news here.  We get people actually talking about it, we
16     get interviews, we get panel discussions and so on,
17     more than just sound bites.
18  114                  And by the way, CBC, sound bites are
19     one of the worst things ever invented, I wish you'd
20     stop doing those silly things.  But never mind.
21  115                  The strike, the recent strike, has
22     been quite instructive for me and I think a lot of
23     other people, because we have to listen to these other
24     stations to get the weather because the weather has
25     been so uncertain.  So we have to go through all this


 1     noise, all this cacophony to get the information.
 2  116                  I actually brought along a little
 3     radio with me here and I debated with myself whether I
 4     had the nerve to do this or not, but -- I have missed
 5     the station.
 6     ---  Audio clip / Clip audio
 7  117                  MR. PRATT:  That's what I mean.  See
 8     how nice it is when it goes off?  When it stops it's
 9     really nice.
10  118                  Now, I know if you live in Toronto or
11     other big cities that you can get the kind of cultural
12     programming that I'm talking about on other stations,
13     but you can't get it here.
14  119                  And incidentally, the CBC's desperate
15     solution for the moment to cover this strike is also --
16     they're doing what they can, but it is somewhat
17     alienating to hear somebody in Fredericton or Saint
18     John trying desperately to cover us here, but really
19     only still doing what they do in that place.
20  120                  I well remember when the CBC Radio
21     came to P.E.I. and how terrific it was to get the
22     local, along with the regional and national and not
23     have to deduce what the weather was going to be from
24     what you're hearing in Halifax.  Because if you don't
25     have that, what you have to do is keep switching of


 1     course.  If you just keep your national CBC, then
 2     that's -- sure, we could listen to that, but then we'd
 3     have to keep switching back to get the local stuff.
 4  121                  So all of that, I'm just talking
 5     local and I'm putting that together with my other point
 6     which is that of course we get very good national
 7     coverage and some regional.  The radio noon regional
 8     show is -- really pulls the Maritimes together.  It's
 9     an excellent show and how they keep coming up with such
10     excellent talking questions day after day astonishes me
11     and it was really worrisome when it seemed like it
12     could be cut as a show.  And what I would do without
13     Marjorie on Friday afternoons to tell me about
14     gardening.  I don't know what I would do.
15  122                  And then such things, when you are
16     moving to the national level you get the six o'clock
17     news is a half an hour of news.  And there's nothing to
18     touch that on commercial radio.  And then, of course,
19     into "As It Happens" and you get background stories of
20     the news and so on.
21  123                  When we wake up in the morning, my
22     wife and I we program our waking time so we get the
23     seven o'clock news, it's fairly substantial.  Then we
24     get news headlines of the local stories and we choose
25     whether we're going to listen to the news at 7:30 to


 1     get the local stuff, and we also get notices of what
 2     the interviews are for the next hour so that we can
 3     choose whether to do that and then we get the weather. 
 4     It's a perfect package, instead of, of course, what's
 5     on this.
 6  124                  So it's the combo of national and
 7     local that I'm talking about and then to add to that,
 8     quietly and without fanfare, all of a sudden we had
 9     Radio Two, as well as Radio One.
10  125                  So there was classical music all day
11     long, which is heaven all day long for some of us.  And
12     that doesn't need to be local and it's surely a very
13     inexpensive thing to put on and there's nothing like it
14     here, other than that.
15  126                  I have lived in the United States, I
16     have lived in New Zealand.  I have seen both ends of
17     this kind of spectrum that we're talking about and let
18     me tell you the direction to go is New Zealand and not
19     America.
20  127                  So that's my message.  Please renew
21     this licence.  Let the rest of us to do what we can to
22     get some more money for the CBC.
23  128                  And as my last point, I have been
24     listening, of course, to the CBC news and hearing news
25     of hearings elsewhere, and hearing news of emotion


 1     elsewhere.  Don't kid yourself that there's no emotion
 2     in this room just because it's a slightly cold room and
 3     we're all somewhat intimidated.
 4  129                  I personally am a very busy person. 
 5     I'm Chair of the unit where I work.  I'm currently
 6     directing "Pirates of Penzance" -- to get a little plug
 7     in there.  I just hurt my back about an hour ago
 8     shovelling wet snow.
 9  130                  I'm here because I feel strongly
10     about the CBC.  I'm sure if you were living here you'd
11     be here too.  I cannot believe that Stuart Langford and
12     Françoise Bertrand would not be supporting the CBC if
13     you lived in Charlottetown.
14  131                  Thank you.
15  132                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
16     Thank you very much, Mr. Pratt.
17  133                  Mr. Langford?
18  134                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  We will
19     polish up the handles so carefully --
20  135                  MR. PRATT:  That's the "Pinafore".
21  136                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes, I know,
22     but it's the only thing I can remember.  Give me a
23     break!  At least it's Gilbert & Sullivan.
24     --- Laughter / Rires
25  137                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 


 1     Thank you.
 2  138                  Mr. Stewart?
 3                                                        1340
 4  139                  MR. STEWART:  On the program,
 5     Mr. Hoof and Mrs. Hoof are listed as presenting a joint
 6     presentation, but I understand they wish to make a
 7     separate presentation because they have different
 8     matters to bring out.
 9  140                  So if that is the case I invite
10     Mr. Hoof to make his presentation.
12  141                  MR. HOOF:  Thank you.
13  142                  I think everything I wanted to say
14     has pretty well been said.  But I will go ahead and
15     maybe I can add a few things to it.
16  143                  Question:  How does the CBC fulfil
17     it's role and should it be different in the new
18     millennium?
19  144                  I will direct my comments first to
20     radio programming.  First of all, let's not worry about
21     the new millennium.  It's just a number and we can't
22     even agree on when it's going to start.
23  145                  And let's not fix something that
24     ain't broke.  I think CBC Radio is doing a good job and
25     I do with -- but I do wish you could settle the strike


 1     immediately.
 2  146                  I wouldn't -- as has been said by
 3     others, I wouldn't worry too much about attracting
 4     young people to radio.  They enjoy the pop music on
 5     private stations and will eventually look for something
 6     more meaningful.
 7  147                  I started listening to the CBC Radio
 8     in 1938 with a radio that had four batteries, all of
 9     different sizes.  Over the years I think you have kept
10     your mandate and established a niche for yourselves and
11     the market is growing, as is the population bulge ages.
12  148                  There seems to me to be an
13     underground effort to get rid of the CBC or any
14     government service.  It seems to be based on a
15     political philosophy which links freedom with private
16     enterprise.
17  149                  Question:  How does the CBC serve the
18     public on regional and national levels?
19  150                  I would say very well.  When I go to
20     Regina or Moose Jaw I hear about their local issues,
21     which is as it should be.  At the same time, you cover
22     issues extremely well and you're the only one doing it
23     in depth.
24  151                  Question:  Should program be
25     different from other broadcasters?


 1  152                  The answer is a resounding yes.  And
 2     other people have covered it well.
 3  153                  No one has mentioned commercials. 
 4     But having radio without commercials is fundamental to
 5     your success and if necessary, I, for one, would be
 6     willing to pay a special donation for radio each year
 7     with my income tax form.
 8  154                  As Hilda Nikme(ph) expressed it,
 9     "There is so little for the mind on the average private
10     station".
11  155                  A special role in programming.  Yes,
12     you do an excellent and necessary job and I like the
13     way you involve the new immigrant nationalities.
14  156                  I could mention a few programs I like
15     and they have all been pretty well mentioned.  "This
16     Morning", "Maritime Noon", "Ideas", "Writers and
17     Company", "Cross-Country Check Up", "Overnight Radio",
18     et cetera.
19  157                  Now, I will go to TV, which, as other
20     people have said, sometimes is not as attractive.  One
21     thing, you're overdoing the commercials on TV.  And my
22     suggestion would be, it's something which I understand
23     they do in Germany, make a program of your commercials. 
24     Sometimes they put half an hour of commercials and
25     either that or put them all at the beginning of the


 1     program or the end.
 2  158                  I object to the programs which are
 3     supposedly aimed at children with too much animation
 4     and of course, too much Disney.  That's so little for
 5     the mind again.
 6  159                  In closing I will just say, on TV, I
 7     like "The Fifth Estate", "Marketplace", nature things,
 8     land and sea, "Life and Times", "Cross-Country",
 9     "Country Canada" and "Witness".
10  160                  So I thank you again for letting me
11     make a presentation.
12  161                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
13     Thank you, Mr. Hoof.
14                                                        1350
15  162                  MR. STEWART:  I now invite ask
16     Mrs. Sally Blake Hoof to make her presentation.
18  163                  MRS. BLAKE HOOF:  Here we are.  I
19     thank you, too, for the opportunity to be here, it's
20     great.
21  164                  Of course, we have left with the
22     whole board of the CBC, as well as you but we're all
23     addressing both parties, I think and I certainly am one
24     who is praying devoutly for the continuation of the
25     licence of the local CBC station, as well as a general


 1     impetus towards further funds for the CBC right across
 2     the country.
 3  165                  I bought a small plastic red radio
 4     with my first Canadian pay cheque in September 1957,
 5     from which moment CBC could count on me as a regular
 6     listener -- on Saturdays mostly because I did work five
 7     days a week.
 8  166                  And of course at the weekend there
 9     was this zany man called Max Ferguson who, at that
10     period, created a regular series of short programs
11     loosely based on his unique view of current events.
12  167                  Granny was offering herself as
13     Canada's first spacewoman and the spacecraft was being
14     launched from the front lawn of Cyrus Eaton
15     Sinclair's(ph) home in Pugwash, Nova Scotia.  Marvin
16     Melabill(ph) was the commentator.
17  168                  Some of you remember this?  Yes.
18  169                  The Russians had just gone into space
19     and of course, soon thereafter came the American space
20     flight which caused a jubilant 7th grader in Digby
21     Regional High School to roar triumphantly to his
22     teacher, "We did it!".
23  170                  The teacher, being of good loyalist
24     descent questioned the youngster's choice of "we",
25     pointing out that he was a Canadian, after all, whose


 1     American neighbours had made the space flight.
 2  171                  But I would like to say more about
 3     nationalism in a moment or two.
 4  172                  I rejoice in CBC Radio because it
 5     functions in standard Canadian speech, generally free
 6     of sports jock-type delivery which is such a painful
 7     part of so much commercial radio, with some exceptions.
 8  173                  The quality of the people is the
 9     other thing I like.  I like the variety of material and
10     I like the variety of format.  I get stimulation, I
11     hear debate, I hear questioning, I hear humour, I hear
12     world news and I can generally rely, I think, on the
13     accuracy of local reporting.  And if I want to put it
14     up against our local newspapers, when I want to know
15     where the truth lies, well, I suppose I rely more on
16     CBC.
17  174                  I want, actually, to name a few names
18     and be more specific.  The recent strike has proved to
19     this listener for one, that we have a crew of
20     broadcasters in Charlottetown who are quite
21     exceptional.
22  175                  Wayne Collins and Karen Mair on the
23     "Morning Show", fine voices, clear heads, courteous
24     hosts, humour.  They're inventive and they're thorough. 
25     And among the contributing reporters, Pat Martell and


 1     Anne Thurlow are exceptional.
 2  176                  And I mention these because it is
 3     quite possible that you members of the panel may not be
 4     equally fortunate in your own home CBC stations, so
 5     please, don't steal them.  Okay?
 6  177                  Then in the "Noon Show", once more
 7     the quality of reporting by such people as Mac Campbell
 8     is tops and the hosting of the Maritime phone-in show
 9     by Kostas Salibrasos(ph) is a model of clarity,
10     courteously, ingenuity, fairness.
11  178                  And if CBC wants to have someone to
12     train young broadcasters, to teach them how to speak
13     well, this man would be a top candidate, but don't
14     steal him either, please.  We want him to stay right
15     where he is.  This is "grey power" speaking.
16  179                  I have several favourite shows, I
17     won't enumerate them, but I can write a letter to CBC
18     and say which ones I like best.  And most people have
19     mentioned my favourites.  And like Professor Pratt, I
20     think "Radio at Noon" is quite exceptional.
21  180                  When I think of the national programs
22     there is so many there that are superlative.  I want to
23     see them all continue and I want to see them evolve, so
24     I'm going to mention "This Morning", which was "Morning
25     Side".  And obviously, if I remember 1957, I remember


 1     Gerussi, Don Harron, Judy LaMarsh before Gzowski.
 2  181                  But there are a lot of young people
 3     nowadays that think that Peter Gzowski started the
 4     whole thing and that, you know, Enright and Benoit are
 5     johnny-come-latelies and that it was always M. Gzowski. 
 6     It wasn't indeed.
 7  182                  I like the new format a lot.  It's
 8     one of the few programs on radio or TV where co-hosting
 9     works,I think.  Enright and Benoit avoid coziness and
10     private giggles.  They still speak outwards to the
11     interviewees and to the listeners in every part of the
12     country.
13  183                  Every day there's some section where
14     big themes of morality and justice are debated, along
15     with politics, local and national, comedy, music and
16     gossip.
17  184                  If you take Dick Gordon's features on
18     Monday now it's very interesting that he is doing what
19     Stuart McLean did very effectively with Gzowski, but
20     he's doing it in his own way and he's dealing with
21     natural phenomenon and nature, society.
22  185                  And I think it's -- there's a case of
23     evolution.  For us to say what should they be doing in
24     the new millennium is daft in a way, because there are
25     so many inventive people in production at CBC -- I know


 1     a lot of them and have known them over 40 years because
 2     of my personal interest in drama and music, besides the
 3     visual arts.  There's so many people bubbling with
 4     ideas you never really have to worry, CBC will
 5     percolate along and it will evolve.
 6  186                  So that's all I want to say about
 7     radio, except to come back for a moment.  I'm not a
 8     great television person, partly because I am a visual
 9     artist.  I feel that there's a lot of opportunity lost
10     on television.
11  187                  I'm very tired of seeing talking
12     heads, and they all have these wonderful books -- these
13     rolls of legal books behind them that nobody's ever
14     read.  The potted plants change sometimes, but I don't
15     need people sitting static with makeup on their faces
16     talking very slowly about something that radio can do
17     faster and more effectively.
18  188                  And the emphasis on news on
19     television is regrettable, but I am told by people who
20     travel to Ontario a lot -- I travel there rarely --
21     that -- I see my daughter watching "Oprah" and I say,
22     "My God!  That's a different generation".
23  189                  But I still think that the good
24     people are there, things will evolve, things will
25     change naturally.


 1  190                  On TV I like Adrienne Clarkson.  Why? 
 2     Because I'm a snob.  I hate commercials and because I
 3     have a whole hour and I say, "The CBC is still giving
 4     me this marvellous series".  Oh, I'm like a kid with
 5     candies.
 6  191                  Hang on to it!  Hang on to it! 
 7     Please, hang on to it!  Just that one hour, no
 8     commercials.  Why?  Whose paying for those?  I would
 9     love to knows who pays for that.
10  192                  Anyway, I say God bless them and
11     thank them.
12  193                  Now, back to nationalists.  I just
13     want to say that as an immigrant, of course, I'm
14     naturally a devout nationalist.  How many of you swore
15     to be faithful to Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth the 2nd
16     and if you're a Scot like me, you said, "Queen
17     Elizabeth the 2nd, not historically accurate, but
18     anyway".
19  194                  There is a political tendency to
20     centralize and that goes for all large businesses like
21     broadcasting.  I remember the construction of the Radio
22     Canada building in Montreal and of course, we all know
23     about the huge "E" in Toronto for English services.
24  195                  But what happens is, it can lead to
25     smugness and stagnation when you have centralization. 


 1     If you have centralized management, you tend to be
 2     introverted and you tend, perhaps to think that ideas
 3     from smaller broadcast centres are simply cute or
 4     folksy or even irrelevant.  Not so.
 5  196                  What happens in Charlottetown affects
 6     the citizens of this province directly.  It helps us to
 7     be informed voters, active citizens and it also informs
 8     us about our industries, our arts to a small extent,
 9     our education, our history and so forth, with a minimum
10     of editorializing.
11  197                  So democracy requires constant
12     vigilance and I regard the region, so-called, the
13     provinces, the territories as the democratic parts that
14     constitute the whole of CBC.  You maybe need the big
15     tower in Toronto, you need some of your top management
16     in Toronto, fine, top management in Montreal.  But
17     you're going to get just as much energy coming from the
18     local stations and that is what I want for the future.
19  198                  And I know it will change naturally
20     and that good brains and inventive and amusing and
21     intelligent, exciting people will keep percolating up
22     if top management allows them to percolate up.
23  199                  Thank you very much.
24  200                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
25     Thank you very much.


 1                                                        1355
 2  201                  MR. STEWART:  I now invite Ms Theresa
 3     Doyle to make her presentation.
 5  202                  MS DOYLE:  Thank you very much and I
 6     appreciate having the opportunity to speak here today. 
 7     I speak as a musician and also as Chair of the Prince
 8     Edward Island Council of the Arts.
 9  203                  And I agree with most everything that
10     I have heard here today, so I will try to direct my
11     comments to areas that haven't been touched.
12  204                  I'm going to speak about what I do
13     because I want to put forth an argument that will allow
14     others to do the same in the future.
15  205                  I'm a Celtic musician.  I run my own
16     record company, I have six records on my own label.  I
17     tour internationally.  I was just nominated for a Juno
18     and East Coast Music Award.
19  206                  And I tell you this because I would
20     not have a career without Canadian Content rules,
21     Cancon, without the Canada Council and most
22     importantly, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.
23  207                  Let me repeat, I would not have a
24     career because I would not be interested in having a
25     career in the kind of music that you heard on Terry's


 1     little handset there a few minutes ago.
 2  208                  It's a privilege to be able to have a
 3     career in Celtic music.  I'm a six-generation Prince
 4     Edward Islander and my entire career has been built on
 5     collecting the folk music and folk stories of this
 6     province and bringing those stories to the rest of the
 7     country, to the U.S., to Europe and Japan.  And I tell
 8     you there are very important stories in tiny places
 9     like Prince Edward Island that need to be heard around
10     the world.
11  209                  Those stories are just as interesting
12     as anything you're going on Queen Street, in fact Queen
13     Street doesn't need -- I have a lot of musician friends
14     in Toronto, they don't need CBC in the way we need CBC. 
15     In fact, they don't even listen to it, because they
16     have access to so much else that's going on and so many
17     venues and opportunities to present their work.  We
18     don't; we have CBC.
19  210                  Without CBC we don't even have -- it
20     would be very difficult to imagine performing on the
21     East Coast without CBC.  I'm doing a children's
22     festival this summer.  Local TV, last year they were
23     down and did a spot on that.  CBC Radio, practically
24     every couple of days will play something off my record
25     and tell people about the show that's going on.


 1  211                  Now, two or three records back,
 2     national radio actually did play a fairly important
 3     role in my career.  And I think my situation is very
 4     indicative of other, you know, people in the music
 5     industry across the country.  I'm not talking about
 6     Bryan and Céline, I'm talking about James Keelaghan,
 7     Connie Coldor(ph), people who really speak -- and the
 8     Stompin' Toms, people who really speak -- that hold
 9     this country together on the cultural scene.
10  212                  Where was I?  I can't remember.
11  213                  But I do know that from the time my
12     first record, 'Prince Edward Island Do' came out a
13     dozen years ago to today, the greatest friend I have is
14     local CBC.  I go in there, they interview me, they play
15     my music, they tie me to my community.  They help me
16     export my music to other countries.  They help me get
17     my music out across the country.  They are my lifeblood
18     and they have worked so hard to help me every step of
19     the way.
20  214                  People on the local scene like Sheryl
21     MacKay and Barbara Nymark, all -- Karen Mair, so many
22     of these people have helped me along the way.
23  215                  On the regional scene, people like
24     Glen Mizener(ph) have built the Atlantic folk music
25     scene.  People like Glen Mizener make or break people's


 1     lives in the music business.
 2  216                  Dedicated people in regional Canada
 3     who are finding bucks to still continue making albums
 4     for people like Eagle Feather and Rose Vaughan(ph)
 5     and -- we would be -- it would take all my ten minutes
 6     to name the people that Glen Mizener has put on the map
 7     in Atlantic Canada and people whose careers are
 8     international now.
 9  217                  And I guess a question that I would
10     ask is what kind of community are we building here in
11     Canada?  And I would ask this about health care and a
12     lot of other issues.
13  218                  But it seems to me that we have a
14     very strong cultural voice in CBC.  I lived seven years
15     in Montreal and I was singing jazz then.  My
16     communication was much more with Belgium and with
17     France; I felt cut off from Canada.  The only thing
18     that kept me plugged into Canada was Peter Gzowski.
19  219                  I have lived in the Yukon.  I enjoy
20     turning on CBC and hearing what my musician friends are
21     doing in the Yukon or, you know, who won the Yukon
22     Quest this year.  And I would be one of those people
23     that are going to fight for a very long time to keep
24     the important things about this country alive.
25  220                  And maybe you're not getting the kind


 1     of numbers that CHUM is getting, but that doesn't
 2     matter because it will always be a smaller part of the
 3     population that will hold this together politically,
 4     culturally and we need that strong national voice.
 5  221                  When I travel abroad and turn on the
 6     TV -- I mean, especially when you go to the U.S., car
 7     accidents, that's not news as far as I'm concerned.  I
 8     have been brought up on CBC and the standard is so
 9     incredibly high -- you know, we can criticize it.  It's
10     very easy to criticize it until you travel and see what
11     else is being offered around the world.
12  222                  When it comes to TV, again, I think
13     we're growing up culturally and we are ready to hear
14     our own stories.  And I love "This Hour Has 22
15     Minutes", the only hard news I really get.
16  223                  I love Canadian programming and I
17     think we're doing an excellent job north of -- shows
18     like "North of 60", fabulous, fabulous productions.  If
19     we have to go out and buy -- if Canada cannot afford to
20     fill the entire space with our own productions, then
21     let's buy from the Brits and let's buy from Australia. 
22     Nobody needs one more second of American TV.  Let's
23     keep absolutely fabulous.
24  224                  I wouldn't want to be Hanna Gartner 
25     coming back after the strike, after all those episodes,


 1     absolutely fabulous.
 2  225                  What else?  I must be out of time by
 3     now.
 4  226                  But yes, Toronto cannot speak for us
 5     and the rest of the country.
 6  227                  And the other thing that's happening
 7     in Toronto -- I remember what I wanted to say when back
 8     when -- that it used to be when I came out with an
 9     album, I could get several hits on national radio. 
10     It's supposed to be music and more.  We're getting too
11     much more and not enough music.  Let's cut some of the
12     talk and play good Canadian music.
13  228                  Also, let's open up CBC Two to other
14     kinds of music that you don't hear on commercial radio. 
15     Yes, I love classical music, but I also love jazz and I
16     do like folk music and world beat.
17  229                  So let's open up Radio Two for a few
18     hours of the day to those other kinds of music that a
19     tremendous number of people enjoy, you know.  There are
20     lots of supporters of classical music, but hey, some
21     good jazz.  We hear practically no jazz on P.E.I.,
22     so --
23  230                  I think that's all I have to say,
24     except, you know, we're going to keep -- democracy does
25     require constant vigilance and we won't take cuts to


 1     local CBC sitting down.
 2  231                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you
 3     very much.
 4  232                  I have a question -- a couple of
 5     questions, actually.  I will try to brief again.
 6  233                  You're, I think, the second speaker
 7     whose kind of made a general reference, I'm not trying
 8     to nail you down here, I'm just looking for a little
 9     more.
10  234                  MS DOYLE:  Okay.
11  235                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  We came here
12     to hear from you.  If I can come away with a little
13     more I'm a happy person.
14  236                  Sort of a reference to numbers, the
15     numbers aren't as important, you know, let's get the
16     quality.  But is there a cut-off?  I mean is there a
17     point, I mean if nobody's listening, obviously that's a
18     cut-off.  But --
19  237                  MS DOYLE:  Well, I don't where you
20     come from, but here on Prince Edward Island lots of
21     people are listening and the CBC supper hour TV show,
22     this figure's a couple of years old, but 70 per cent of
23     the province watches "Compass".  If you can find a
24     rating other than, you know, the death of Princess
25     Diana to compete with that, I will be surprised.


 1  238                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I think
 2     Monica might have done it, but Monica was more than we
 3     ever want to experience twice.
 4  239                  MS DOYLE:  She's a good example of
 5     why we don't need one more minute of American
 6     broadcasts.
 7  240                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Amen to that.
 8  241                  The second question I have is because
 9     you have been in the music business for a while, you
10     have been in it through the cuts, I suppose.  You have
11     seen the good times and the bad times.
12  242                  MS DOYLE:  That's right.
13  243                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Is it getting
14     worse or with a less budget are they still doing the
15     good work?
16  244                  MS DOYLE:  It's absolutely getting
17     worse.  And I'm very fortunate because I started my
18     career -- my radio career in '87 and there were a lot
19     of opportunities open to me then that -- doors that are
20     closed now.  But because I got in at a time where there
21     was still more programming I'm somewhat established and
22     will be able to carry on.
23  245                  For new people coming up the ranks,
24     you know -- like take the switch from Peter Gzowski's
25     show to Averil Benoit, Peter was a great -- or Peter's


 1     producer was a great friend to Canadian independent
 2     music.  A person like Laura Smith -- Laura Smith's
 3     career was made on Peter Gzowski's show, her career was
 4     launched.
 5  246                  Careers do not get launched on Averil
 6     Benoit's show because there's so much talk that
 7     there's, you know, maybe there's an opportunity for two
 8     or three pieces of music to be heard in the course of a
 9     day and musicians don't get interviewed hardly at all. 
10     Whereas in the good old days when my first and second
11     albums came out I could get a nice long interview on
12     national radio.  And that's really important.
13  247                  Plus the local programming.  When I
14     first got in the business you could actually record
15     music at CBC Charlottetown and do some programming
16     right here locally and then it moved to Halifax. 
17     Halifax does a fabulous job but you know, the
18     cut-backs.
19  248                  The cut-backs are going to mean the
20     most to the people that you may well want to attract,
21     which is younger audiences.  How are they going to get
22     heard if they can't get in the door?
23  249                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you.
24  250                  MS DOYLE:  You're welcome.
25                                                        1408


 1  251                  MR. STEWART:  I now invite Mr. James
 2     MacNutt, Q.C., to make his presentation.
 4  252                  MR. MacNUTT:  Thank you.
 5  253                  First of all, welcome.  Thank you
 6     very much for coming to Charlottetown.  I think it's
 7     very appropriate that this topic is being considered in
 8     this particular room.  This room is Memorial Hall
 9     dedicated to commemorate the founding of our country.
10  254                  And one of the primary mandates of
11     CBC is to enhance our understanding, our knowledge of
12     our role as citizens of this country, of indeed our
13     awareness of what is happening in this country.
14  255                  I think it's important that we
15     remember the essential, the very important nature and
16     role of CBC because with the cut-backs, with the
17     understandable difficulty that the corporation is
18     having and adjusting as it downsizes, I can't help but
19     observe that there is a difficulty in maintaining a
20     focus on that very special, that essential role that no
21     other form of media is able to perform.
22  256                  Well, let me start by saying I am an
23     ardent supporter of CBC, an unqualified supporter of
24     CBC, particularly Radio One and Radio Two.
25  257                  Radio Two is an extraordinary gift to


 1     the people of this country.  It's extraordinary in
 2     terms, not only the quality of music, but also the
 3     opportunity to experience music that is not available
 4     in virtually all of this country.  I say "virtually",
 5     yes it is in Montreal, yes it is in Toronto and
 6     Vancouver.  But this is a very large country and there
 7     is much that is not available in parts of this country
 8     that lie outside Toronto, particularly.
 9  258                  Well, what is there about CBC to
10     support it?  Well, as a national broadcaster it has a
11     unique perspective on the national body politic.  It's
12     investigative reporting is reliable, professional and
13     comprehensive.  Nationally.
14  259                  But that same competence, that same
15     professionalism and reliability extends into the
16     coverage that is provided by your local stations for
17     local issues and matters.  I think of the "Compass"
18     program to which reference has already been made, there
19     isn't a politician in this province who doesn't watch
20     it with some fear and trepidation, it has to be said. 
21     But they watch it.
22  260                  It's essential watching for everyone
23     in the province who is remotely interested in what's
24     happening on a day-to-day basis in this province.  And
25     only CBC is able to provide that kind of service.


 1  261                  I appear here this afternoon
 2     primarily because of a few hats that I happen to wear
 3     temporarily.  I'm Chair of the Provincial Easter Seals
 4     Society and of the March of Dimes Society and I'm also
 5     Chair of the Board of Governors of the Museum and
 6     Heritage Foundation.
 7  262                  I mention these only because it is
 8     essential to the effective success of each of those
 9     organizations that we have a community-spirited
10     organization like CBC who is able to provide lines of
11     communication to our community that are otherwise not
12     available.
13  263                  I have listened with great interest
14     to what has been said before I started speaking.  I
15     think the one unique message I have for you is that the
16     cultural organizations, the charitable organizations of
17     this province rely -- and I can't emphasize and
18     underline enough "rely" -- on CBC to communicate our
19     message.  And we are seeing the results of CBC not
20     being available at this time.
21  264                  We have our Easter Seals Telethon
22     scheduled for the 12th of April.  Will it be held? 
23     It's a major, major impact on a large number of
24     organizations in this province.  Only CBC from a
25     television point of view is able to provide the lines


 1     of communication that many cultural and community
 2     organizations can have to the people of this province. 
 3     It cannot be over-emphasized.
 4  265                  Now, is that relevant in Toronto?  I
 5     can tell you that my confreres with Easter Seals and
 6     March of Dimes in Ontario, for example and indeed with
 7     the various heritage related organizations in Ontario,
 8     do not rely on the CBC to the same extent in the
 9     province of Ontario, certainly in the Toronto area.
10  266                  I think there is perhaps a slight
11     problem with envisaging the role of CBC in a monolithic
12     sense.  In other words, the standard that applies to
13     Toronto applies to the country.
14  267                  Please hear me.  Toronto is not
15     Canada.  And I say that out of no disrespect to
16     Toronto.  I do say it out of a very great concern that
17     as you downsize, the standards, the rules, the
18     interests that prevail in the City of Toronto are going
19     to be extended across this country.  And that would be
20     a serious mistake, not only to CBC, but it would be a
21     very great disservice to the people of this province as
22     well as other provinces.  And I would suggest to you
23     that it would be a very great disservice to the very
24     people that we honour in this room.
25  268                  Well, in conclusion, you have my


 1     unqualified support for CBC.
 2  269                  And in further emphasizing that, I
 3     want to say that -- and this is to support some
 4     observations made about the attitude of the people at
 5     the local CBC station, they're extraordinary.  They do
 6     take an interest in what is happening in this
 7     community.  They do make an effort to determine what is
 8     current, what should be supported and I think they're
 9     making very sound judgment calls in determining what
10     should be supported and ensuring that there is adequate
11     coverage and analysis for these.  I think that's very
12     important to say.
13  270                  Again, a very significant measure of
14     the role of CBC is the absence of CBC at this time. 
15     And we have an absence of CBC.  Yes, we have regional
16     programming that is completely irrelevant to what's
17     happening here.
18  271                  Another measure of justification to
19     this kind of recognizing that there perhaps has to be a
20     tiered approach to a CBC structure, you have it now for 
21     various very sound political and linguistic reasons. 
22     But there is an entirely separate structure in the
23     province of Quebec for very good reasons.
24  272                  However, just as part of the
25     justification for the separate system in Quebec, apart


 1     from the linguistic reasons is because of the cultural
 2     distinctiveness of Quebec.  It will not surprise you to
 3     know that there is just as much distinctiveness outside
 4     Toronto, outside Quebec, as there is within.
 5  273                  One thinks of the province of
 6     Newfoundland, for example, which is an extraordinarily
 7     distinct culture.  And while the subtleties may be here
 8     in Prince Edward Island, let me assure you that there
 9     is an incredible distinctiveness to the culture, to the
10     life, to the milieu that we are supporting here in
11     Prince Edward Island.
12  274                  So there is a model, it seems to me,
13     for not treating the CBC as a monolithic organization
14     with one set, clear policy which applies throughout
15     without distinction as to urban/rural, without
16     distinction as to region, north, south, east, west.
17  275                  I thank you for your time and I do
18     hope you will continue to support CBC, but recognizing
19     its extraordinarily distinctive role with the cultural
20     and community organizations that it so effectively
21     supports.
22  276                  Thank you.
23  277                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  I
24     have a question.
25  278                  It's not clear to me, and many of the


 1     intervenors this afternoon do talk about being
 2     unqualified to the CBC and it's quite true --
 3  279                  MR. MACNUTT:  Yes.
 4  280                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:
 5      -- all the interventions.  But most of you talk a lot
 6     about radio, very little about TV.
 7  281                  Can you describe that distinctiveness
 8     you were talking about and I was kind of taking it that
 9     you were not sure what would happen with Easter Seals,
10     you know --
11  282                  MR. MACNUTT:  Yes, the Telethon.
12  283                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:
13      -- because of the strike and everything.  But in
14     general, do you feel that distinctiveness you're
15     talking about and making that distinction between the
16     regional coverage and the local coverage as being
17     important.  Do you see it as much in television as you
18     see it in radio?
19  284                  MR. MACNUTT:  Very much.  Very much.
20  285                  And it has to be said that it's not
21     just Easter Seals, there are many other community
22     initiatives which are covered, either in whole or in
23     part, certainly supported by CBC.
24  286                  Let me just say in answer to your
25     question, for example last year, the PM Museum and


 1     Heritage Foundation gave a special award, a
 2     commemorative award to CBC in recognition of its unique
 3     role in supporting heritage and heritage related issues
 4     in this province.  It was unique in that sense.
 5  287                  Coming back to the television
 6     coverage, it extends straight across any informational
 7     programming that CBC does.  Now, it could be asked
 8     should there be more informational programming at the
 9     local station?  It would be my personal preference to
10     see far more informational programming both nationally
11     and provincially and less head-on competition with the
12     American stations and other commercial stations.
13  288                  You know, CBC has a unique,
14     absolutely unique role to fill and I realize that
15     you're inching more and more into commercial television
16     just out of economic necessity, that's to get the
17     dollars running through the system.  However, the fact
18     is that the pressing need is both for radio and
19     television with a focus at the local level as much as
20     possible, on cultivating, development and enhancement
21     of what is happening in this province.
22  289                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
23     Thank you very much.
24  290                  MR. MACNUTT:  I hope that's helpful.
25  291                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 


 1     Yes, that's helpful.  Thank you.
 2                                                        1425
 3  292                  MR. STEWART:  Now, I would invite
 4     Ms Laura Mair to make a presentation.
 5  293                  Is Ms Mair --
 7  294                  MS MAIR:  Yes.  Thank you, Madam
 8     Chair and CRTC Commissioners.
 9  295                  I don't usually hold on to pins with
10     mottos.  I must have had a premonition that I would be
11     wearing this again.  And I hope "CBC - Ours to Keep" is
12     a good omen of things to come.
13  296                  I appreciate the opportunity to make
14     this presentation in the sincere hope that the goal of
15     these consultations is to truly response to the
16     concerns of many Canadians who care about the future of
17     the CBC and that they are not merely window dressing
18     with budget, program and staff cuts already determined.
19  297                  I also hope that my comments and
20     those of others here today and at other locations
21     across Canada will reflect the important role of Canada
22     as a golden thread -- of CBC as a golden thread which
23     links this vast country of ours.
24  298                  My husband and I lived and worked in
25     several other provinces across Canada.  And on frequent


 1     trips from one coast to the other, CBC Radio was a
 2     travelling encyclopedia for us and our children,
 3     providing a magnificent cornucopia of information about
 4     our geography, our history, our politics and our arts.
 5  299                  National program hosts and reporters
 6     were our travelling companions and although we would
 7     often lose contact when we entered south of the border,
 8     it was like welcoming old friends when we were back
 9     within CBC Radio range and could hear those familiar
10     voices again.  We have come to expect, and in large
11     part, do receive well researched information presented
12     in a very professional manner.
13  300                  The recent strike has left a definite
14     void which we hope will be soon filled.
15  301                  In a world where the number of
16     television and radio stations continues to grow at a
17     phenomenal rate and where the Internet offers a
18     constantly growing and enticing array of information,
19     the CBC has an increasingly important role to play as
20     our national broadcaster.
21  302                  Without CBC, the proliferation of
22     American news programs, entertainment and ads could
23     easily swallow up what we rather casually refer to as
24     our "Canadian identity".  Like a Canadian Jonah in an
25     American whale, CBC must be our champion in the battle


 1     to help us preserve pride in our past, our
 2     accomplishments and our dreams for the future.
 3  303                  I realize that there are many
 4     Canadians who neither listen to nor watch CBC.  And
 5     while one must respect their choices, all too often it
 6     seems as if the programming they choose appeals to the
 7     lowest common denominator.  Cheap sitcoms which often
 8     gloss over the real pain and anger of American society,
 9     extreme violence, gratuitous sex and histrionic news
10     reports.
11  304                  The challenge for CBC will be to
12     produce programs which are not clones of those on other
13     networks and to develop a whole new family of
14     supporters who feel a sense of ownership.
15  305                  Many Canadians of my age grew up at a
16     time where there may have been one local radio station
17     and no television.  So when CBC came along, we were
18     easy captives and many of us have remained faithful
19     supporters.  But that is not the case for many adults
20     in the 20- to 50-year age group who have been choosing
21     from a huge entertainment and information menu and who
22     may not have developed an allegiance to any particular
23     network.
24  306                  I understand that CBC is considering
25     setting up a youth network.  And it may be the way to


 1     develop this new family who will become CBC's adult
 2     audience in the next millennium.  And I realize that
 3     I'm disagreeing with some people who have spoken here
 4     today, but I think the reality is that you do have to
 5     develop a whole new group.
 6  307                  Our youth of today, however, are not
 7     the unsophisticated kids of my youth.  For many of
 8     them, television has been their most faithful companion
 9     from the time they were babies.  They have already seen
10     and heard a multitude of stories about sorrow,
11     violence, political corruption, sexual exploitation and
12     occasionally, about joy and hope.
13  308                  The remote control and dial are just
14     extensions of their fingers.  They will be a very
15     difficult audience to capture and even harder to hold.
16  309                  If such a network is set up, I hope
17     that CBC will regularly consult with youth
18     representatives from across Canada so that the thrust
19     of the programming truly reflects their concerns and
20     interests, rather than what a group of CBC or CRTC
21     bureaucrats may consider appropriate.  However, what is
22     developed must reflect our Canadian identity or it will
23     soon be absorbed in the American melting pot.
24  310                  I would also like to see CBC produce
25     more programs with Canadian writers, singers, actors


 1     and playwrights.  Works that may be picked up by other
 2     networks, even American.  But whose success is not so
 3     dependent on this that the Canadian content must be
 4     hidden.
 5  311                  I would also hope that CBC will at
 6     least retain, if not increase, the percentage of
 7     Canadian music which must be played on all CBC
 8     stations.
 9  312                  Advertising has gradually crept into
10     CBC television programming and it is hard to present
11     arguments against it, since it does generate so much
12     revenue.  And if this is the price we must pay to keep
13     CBC Radio commercial free, then so be it.  But please,
14     please reduce the weeks and weeks of sports playoffs
15     which often result in CBC turn-offs.
16  313                  On the international scene it is sad
17     news that some of CBC's foreign bureaus will be closed. 
18     I admire the concise reports given by our CBC
19     correspondents, often under very difficult situations. 
20     And with Canada's increased involvement as a
21     peacekeeper in so many conflicts throughout the globe,
22     their presence will be missed.
23  314                  We may now have to accept reports
24     from correspondents representing countries and
25     governments whose social and political agendas may


 1     differ greatly from ours.
 2  315                  I want to focus now on local
 3     programming, specifically that on P.E.I.  Local
 4     programming, both radio and television provide us with
 5     windows through which we can see and hear our fellow
 6     Islanders.  We share their stories, their joys, their
 7     concerns, their arts and culture.
 8  316                  Although the programs are produced by
 9     CBC staff they belong to us.  They are our party-line
10     of the past and our Internet of today.
11  317                  Many Island musicians, such as
12     Theresa Doyle who spoke earlier, authors and artists
13     have benefitted greatly by having their talents
14     recognized by CBC, which has provided a vehicle through
15     which they can be promoted.  Their success has enriched
16     both our Island culture and our economy.
17  318                  "Island Morning", "Maritime Noon",
18     "Mainstreet" and "Compass" cover just seven hours out
19     of a broadcast day during which we can expect to see
20     and hear Island residents communicate with each other
21     to hear incisive and probing interviews which help keep
22     our government accountable, to be educated in a broad
23     array of public issues and to share our Island point of
24     view with other Canadians across this great land of
25     ours.


 1  319                  The size of Prince Edward Island is
 2     both a plus and a minus.  Because of our small
 3     geographic area, CBC is able to give us a sense of
 4     being readily connected with people throughout the
 5     province.  However our small population base may be
 6     seen as a negative factor when decisions are made to
 7     cut back on services.
 8  320                  People from more heavily populated
 9     areas flock here to enjoy our unique Island way of
10     life, but when it comes to competing for dollars and
11     services, it is an ongoing battle to protect that
12     uniqueness.
13  321                  Some years ago a hosiery manufacturer
14     came up with the idea of making a perfect pair of
15     nylons.  One size fits all.  He was going to make a
16     fortune, and I apologize if it wasn't a "he".
17  322                  What he forgot is that we are not all
18     the same size.  Although the one size fits all nylon is
19     still on the market and at a very cheap price, it is
20     surrounded by a myriad of other sizes from which to
21     choose.  And I venture that there are quite a number of
22     us here today that wouldn't fit into this.
23  323                  I do not want to see P.E.I. squeezed
24     into a one size fits all plan for CBC in the Maritimes. 
25     An example of what could happen under that scenario has


 1     been vividly demonstrated during this strike.  When CBC
 2     Radio reports an evening news on television, Atlantic
 3     television, we're so minimal you might wonder if Prince
 4     Edward Island had dropped to the bottom of the Atlantic
 5     Ocean.
 6  324                  I firmly believe that the best way to
 7     grow and retain a national audience is to nurture the
 8     grassroots with strong local programming.
 9  325                  I realize that you must make some
10     difficult decisions, but I ask you to go gently with
11     any changes to our locally produced radio and
12     television programs.  What we have now cannot be
13     duplicated by programming from Halifax or Moncton and
14     its loss would further erode our sense of identity as
15     an Island province.
16  326                  I strongly urge the Government of
17     Canada to restore secure funding to the Canadian
18     Broadcasting Corporation so it can continue to deliver
19     a distinct Canadian broadcasting service to each
20     province and territory and across the nation.
21  327                  During a recent visit to P.E.I.,
22     Intergovernmental Affairs Minister Stéphane Dion was
23     quoted as saying that "the newly signed social union
24     includes a commitment for governments to promote
25     greater fairness, equality and respect for a diversity


 1     throughout Canada and to keep Canadians better
 2     informed".
 3  328                  And so, to paraphrase PBS, if CBC
 4     doesn't do it, who will?
 5  329                  Thank you.
 6  330                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
 7     Thank you very much.
 8                                                        1433
 9  331                  MR. STEWART:  And now I would like to
10     invite Mr. Vince MacIntyre to make his presentation.
12  332                  MR. MacINTYRE:  Madam Chairperson,
13     guests here in P.E.I. and fellow presenters and
14     viewers, I guess -- listeners, perhaps.
15  333                  I, like James Macnutt, would like to
16     welcome you here.  This is a plus that we don't have to
17     travel afar to have our views heard.  And it's quite
18     evident from what's transpired here today that there
19     are views here, very substantial views and heartfelt
21  334                  I would like to apologize for not
22     having a written document, some of -- as some might
23     have noted in production during this session,
24     however --
25  335                  I represent the Prince Edward Island


 1     Right to Life Association.  We are a quarter of a
 2     century old as of the 20th of February and have a very
 3     credible history here in Prince Edward Island and we
 4     are very keen observers of the media in a general sense
 5     and particularly with respect to the CBC, both
 6     television and radio, because I believe most of us have
 7     somewhat of a higher expectation of our national
 8     corporation, more so than one might have of a
 9     commercial operation or a more localized operation.
10  336                  I also belong to the Knights of
11     Columbus, I belong to a faith community and I consider
12     myself, after 31 years-plus of public service, the last
13     26-plus in Federal service, as more than just a casual
14     observer of what is going on.
15  337                  And I have had the opportunity of
16     travelling the nation from coast to coast and being
17     involved with all manner of people from coast to coast,
18     national associations, national organizations and of
19     course, my association with a number of people through
20     my employment.
21  338                  The CBC has aired and continues to
22     air on radio and on television some great material and
23     I commend the CBC for it.  Not to go into chapter and
24     verse, there's been various mentions made of instances
25     of programs and so forth that I would give full credit


 1     too, as well.
 2  339                  But -- and there's always a but -- it
 3     does have a difficult time escaping from what leaks out
 4     as a bias or undercurrent or an agenda, call it what
 5     you will, that seems to pervade the CBC quite
 6     particularly.  It pervades all manner of media, as
 7     well, but once again, I think our expectations, they
 8     might even be a little too high with respect to our
 9     national corporation which all of us contribute to with
10     our tax dollars.
11  340                  Mention's been made of commercials. 
12     I see commercials as a pause as they say, "to be zapped
13     with a mute button", ignored or the point at which you
14     dash to do whatever it is you need to do other than
15     watch the ongoing program.
16  341                  There are selling channels -- and I
17     use "selling channels" in quotes.  And maybe these are
18     the places to which the selling should be allocated. 
19     And those that may wonder about, "Well, what product
20     might I use in this or that instance?", they can go
21     there and seek it out.
22  342                  In this day and age, I think, it's
23     somewhat disrespectful of people to be subjected to
24     what is quite clearly pretty manipulative and expertly
25     crafted pauses in programmings that we otherwise are


 1     watching.
 2  343                  I have lost all support for sport
 3     broadcasting, not all sport broadcasting, but
 4     particularly the sport broadcasting that has been
 5     subject to the player strikes, hockey and baseball in
 6     particular, and how that exemplifies the worst in greed
 7     and the quest for greater and greater acquisition of
 8     wealth.
 9  344                  I look to Channel 10 here, our local
10     cable channel, or at least the one that's where it
11     appears on my digits that show up as you go from
12     channel to channel, because it is showing increasingly
13     more and more our culture and the gifts of Island
14     residents and opportunities to speak on various
15     subjects that are verboten or are not allowed on public
16     airwaves otherwise.
17  345                  The news, I wonder about are there
18     blackouts or embargoes on news from places like
19     Eritrea.  Is there no one to speak out when the Hutus
20     and the Tutsis massacre one another while the UN seeks
21     out someone to blame the whole fiasco on and uses a
22     scapegoat.  And most unfortunately it was a Canadian
23     peacekeeper, a lieutenant colonel, I believe, who had
24     the fan pointing his way when the switch was turned on
25     in some sort of ersatz inquiry.  A travesty to be sure


 1     when you look at the peacekeeping history of this
 2     nation.
 3  346                  I think there has to be a very clear
 4     policy decision with respect to giving the news, rather
 5     than attempting to make the news and/or editorialize on
 6     the news because that's quite outside of the news
 7     world.
 8  347                  Far too often as I view the news, and
 9     I view it less and less on CBC, because more and more
10     it's a class production rather than class content or
11     approach as newsmaking should be -- news reporting,
12     excuse me, should be.  So I watch it less and less and
13     rely on other sources to get the real story.
14  348                  E-mail is my primary source and I
15     receive anything from 10 to 15 e-mails a day from
16     various sources, that I can then sift through and look
17     at and decide for myself as to where this fits in the
18     total scheme of things.  Most of it fits very well.
19  349                  Excuse me if this is rather random or
20     hopping about, but that's the way it is.
21  350                  I would like to think that we could
22     bring more decision-making closer to the delivery point
23     of programming.  Local programs, local people and
24     events interspersed with national feed of -- well,
25     certainly in radio sense of music or programming which


 1     we wouldn't normally have available within the
 2     province.  And certainly the advent of CBC Two, to me,
 3     has been a delight with the wide range of music and so
 4     on.
 5  351                  I will speak to an exception to that
 6     in a moment.
 7  352                  There certainly needs to be policy
 8     that is open to all schools of thought and seeks
 9     spokespersons who can add to the public's ability to
10     discern right and wrong, recognize truth and falsehood,
11     is far more challenging to the listening audience and
12     treats them as an intelligent, thinking group of
13     people, rather than as sponges to be filled with
14     someone else's perception as to what they should be
15     filled with.
16  353                  Any bias or agenda manipulates and
17     assumes that the slant involved is the only correct and
18     proper course, and it's unfortunate if that's followed.
19  354                  With respect to whether it should be
20     publicly owned, I disagree with the Reform Party
21     nationally who says there shouldn't be a public
22     broadcast organization.  There should be a public
23     broadcast organization, but more so there should be a
24     public broadcast organization that is at arm's length
25     from government.


 1  355                  There should be representation of the
 2     population and varying philosophies or whatever within
 3     the population in the managerial levels, thinking of
 4     the CBC Board of Governors and such like.  That is not
 5     an elitist club.  It should, if it's a national
 6     organization, represent the country not some kind of an
 7     elitist viewpoint.
 8  356                  We certainly have to remove the
 9     National Capital Region from its wish to steer and
10     effect what the CBC does and what it is.  We have to
11     remove the Cabinet, we have to remove the Prime
12     Minister from that sort of direct influence.  It's not
13     a personal ownership thing; we all own it.
14  357                  MR. STEWART:  Excuse me, sir.  You
15     have now been speaking for about more than 11 minutes.
16  358                  MR. MacINTYRE:  I'm sorry.  I will
17     hasten my closing comments.
18  359                  MR. STEWART:  Much appreciated, thank
19     you.
20  360                  MR. MacINTYRE:  You say is the CBC
21     needed, well perhaps.  But from my point of view, I say
22     yes.  You see a mixed bag of responses within the
23     environment of the strike.  You get a sense that
24     there's a lack of fervour in people with regard to the
25     CBC's temporary closure, but still when you get close


 1     to the situation, you realize that it very much is an
 2     essential part of this country.
 3  361                  We see programs like "Emily of New
 4     Moon", for instance, that is good programming.  We see
 5     instances, on the other hand, of terrible programming
 6     that, as has been mentioned, is related to sex and
 7     somehow stuck back in a decade that we have left
 8     behind.
 9  362                  So what do we want out of the -- to
10     redress what we feel is a bias and certainly the two
11     programs that related to the loss of the person who was
12     involved in providing abortion services in Buffalo and
13     the programs that followed that were very biased.  They
14     were very slanted.  The interview with the President of
15     the Champion Life Coalition was cut down to a sound
16     bite that didn't at all represent what he was saying.
17  363                  So the bias is there, the weight of
18     evidence is there.
19  364                  The redress, is it de-funding CBC?  I
20     don't think so.  Is it just to get an apology?  I don't
21     think so.  But it's that there should be a quid pro
22     quo, there should be an opportunity for both sides, if
23     in fact one side gets a full play, for the other side
24     to get a full play and that's very difficult to get.
25  365                  So I guess the question in my mind is


 1     what will you do about the evidence that's gathered? 
 2     What will happen with the comments, the information,
 3     the input that comes from peoples' hearts and minds and
 4     how will it effect the future in order to improve the
 5     situation, to remove the bias, to bring about, you
 6     know, the kind of programming, the kind of national
 7     broadcasting organization that all of us want?
 8  366                  I will close with that.  Thank you
 9     very much.
10  367                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
11     Thank you and as for the matter on the bias for the CBC
12     to answer -- we're the CRTC, we're here to listen to
13     the views of Canadians conducting to the renewal of the
14     licence.  As my colleague has said, we're not here to
15     shut down the CBC, au contraire, it's to renew its
16     licences.
17  368                  Secondly, we're not here to fund or
18     not fund the CBC, it's not our role, it's a role of
19     government and Parliament.
20  369                  And as for managing and choosing the
21     way the programs are done, it's a matter of the CBC and
22     as I have explained earlier when I introduced the
23     consultation, the CBC will have a reply at the end of
24     the session this afternoon and as well as the evening
25     session.


 1  370                  And what we will be doing with all
 2     the comments we will hear here and in all the cities,
 3     there will be a written report that will be part of the
 4     public hearing that will conduct to the renewal of all
 5     of the licences of the CRTC -- not the CRTC.  Mind you,
 6     some would like that.
 7     --- Laughter / Rires
 8  371                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
 9     But of the CBC.  So it's useful information that will
10     help us kind of establish a dialogue into the public
11     hearing for the renewal.
12  372                  MR. MacINTYRE:  May I respond, Madam
13     Chairperson?
14  373                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
15     Well, I don't want to engage in a debate --
16  374                  MR. MacINTYRE:  No, no, no, it's not
17     engaging in debate.
18  375                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:
19      -- it's not the purpose at all of the -- I was just
20     bringing clarification --
21  376                  MR. MacINTYRE:  Right.  But the word
22     "bias" was used in the document to call for these.  And
23     so that's why I addressed the matter of bias.
24  377                  And in actual fact, the CBC should
25     hold similar things so that they hear firsthand --


 1  378                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
 2     They will have a chance, as I say, to make all the
 3     replies they want at the end of this --
 4  379                  MR. MacINTYRE:  But be the host and
 5     host this -- this kind of environment.
 6  380                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
 7     For them to answer.
 8  381                  MR. MacINTYRE:  Yes.
 9                                                        1450
10  382                  MR. STEWART:  Merci, Madame la
11     Présidente.
12  383                  I now invite Ms Hélène Smith to make
13     her presentation.
15  384                  MS SMITH:  That's where my age shows
16     is in my back.
17  385                  Well, panel, you have been welcomed,
18     so I won't repeat that, but I would like to thank you
19     for coming and I would like to thank you for this
20     opportunity to speak, although I'm only responding to
21     your initial invitation and I commend you for your
22     consistency.  I received at least three phone calls
23     from Head Office or whatever, including this gentleman. 
24     So I appreciated them all.
25  386                  And I'm afraid my presentation will


 1     not be as polished as a Q.C., for example, who made an
 2     excellent presentation, a professional singer and Ms
 3     Laura Mair, who is a member of the ZONTA sisterhood or
 4     club.
 5  387                  I'm a country girl, so my talk may be
 6     a little bit folksy, but to borrow someone's
 7     expression, it comes straight from the heart.  But my
 8     heart, no one else's.
 9  388                  I have no claim to fame except that I
10     did work two seasons for the Honourable Jean Chrétien
11     when he was Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs at
12     Louisbourg and I cherish those two seasons.  They were
13     wonderful and it was before he had his personality
14     change.
15     --- Laughter / Rires
16  389                  MS SMITH:  My only other claim to
17     fame is that I worked for Veterans' Affairs where I
18     felt that in a manner I was doing my little bit for my
19     two half-brothers who were French Canadians from La
20     Belle Province, Leonard and Victor Tétreault.  I felt
21     that I was carrying on where they had finished off.
22  390                  So the only other thing I can say is
23     I have a record of being married for 53, almost 54
24     years to the same man.  That's a record today.
25     --- Applause / Applaudissements


 1  391                  MS SMITH:  Okay.  So I want to make
 2     it clear that I'm speaking for myself and possibly for
 3     other seniors who may be too intimidated to speak
 4     publicly or they may not have the mobility required to
 5     get here.  We have no Island public transportation
 6     outside of Charlottetown, you may not be aware of that. 
 7     Others may fear ridicule or repercussions even.  It
 8     happens here.
 9  392                  Being my father's daughter, a true
10     Robert, I don't even, after receiving my first hate
11     letter, anonymous, two weeks ago, it doesn't deter me
12     one bit.  It had nothing to do with this, but my father
13     was brave and I'm my father's daughter.
14  393                  What is the role of the CBC Radio and
15     TV?  What do you think of radio and TV?  Were the
16     questions we were asked in our directions here.
17  394                  I wanted to respond to this
18     thoughtful invitation issued by the CRTC before the
19     strike and applaud them for their courage in pursuing
20     this initiative under difficult, strained and charged
21     conditions.
22  395                  I have listened to CBC Radio for over
23     57 years.  Prior to that I couldn't, I didn't have a
24     radio.  I have tuned into CBC Radio in three different
25     provinces.  First, in La Belle Province where I was


 1     born, then in Neil's Harbour and Louisbourg, Cape
 2     Breton, as I mentioned, where we lived and worked for
 3     two and a half years.  Briefly in Kemptville, Nova
 4     Scotia and for the past 28 years in six different
 5     communities of the province of my choice, Prince Edward
 6     Island.
 7  396                  Fifty-seven years of listening do not
 8     make me an authority on CBC, but I believe it proves
 9     that I am a devoted, faithful, unshakeable listener and
10     just look at me here, and this bag that's so well worn
11     that I won years ago.
12  397                  As such, plus the fact that my tax
13     dollars in my working years and those of my 90-year old
14     husband, give me the right to express what I like and
15     what I don't like about CBC Radio and Television.
16  398                  I like CBC Radio because it is both
17     informative and entertaining.  It has the advantage
18     over TV that one can enjoy it while going about their
19     mundane chores from which a woman never seems to
20     retire.
21  399                  Within recent years, Sunday
22     afternoons, "Tapestry" has become a must for me.  It is
23     a mosaic of opinions on faith and spirituality from
24     people of different ethnic and religious backgrounds. 
25     It was uplifting to hear one of our religious studies


 1     professors from UPEI share his innermost thoughts not
 2     long ago on this program.
 3  400                  "Cross Canada Checkup" is another
 4     must.  Rex Murphy ably monitors, as did his
 5     predecessors in dialogue from coast to coast.
 6  401                  But please, Rex or whoever chooses
 7     the topic, no more Monica Lewinsky and Bill Clinton
 8     rehashing.  Leave that to Americans.  CBC drama short
 9     stories are good for the most part, but interviews,
10     interminable of authors are boring, at least to me,
11     especially when they explore the psyche of the
12     fictitious characters.
13  402                  Clive Gilmour's albums of classical
14     music were part of my Sunday.  Also greatly missed will
15     be "Front Porch Al".  "As It Happens" with Barbara Budd
16     and Mary Lou Finlay is always interesting, timely,
17     informative.
18  403                  "Ideas", Monday to Friday after the
19     9:00 p.m. news is an education in itself.  And it is
20     part of mine.
21  404                  This year's Massey Lectures with
22     speaker Jean Vanier, a living saint in my opinion, was
23     no exception.  For content, quality, inspiration and
24     spirituality.
25  405                  In fact, I give some of the credit to


 1     my selection of CBC programs over these past six, seven
 2     years for the success with which I'm pursuing a
 3     Bachelor of Arts, if I live long enough, at UPEI.  I
 4     just need two more credits to finish my third year, and
 5     I pray God will let me live long enough to do the
 6     fourth year and graduate.
 7  406                  I don't want to be the dummy of the
 8     family, my husband has a Doctorate and my
 9     grandchildren, one has a college degree from Ottawa and
10     is working towards her Master.  And my grandson wants
11     to be an engineer.  So only my son and I were the ones
12     without degrees, but that doesn't mean that we don't
13     deserve them.
14  407                  Peter Gzowski, was it Theresa who
15     referred to him, how I loved that man -- oh, I mean his
16     program.  It was a thrill to meet him at the Prince
17     Edward Hotel when he came to act as moderator on the
18     Link Hearings.  I must say he looked better on radio
19     than in person though.
20     --- Laughter / Rires
21  408                  MS SMITH:  The late Barbara Frum was
22     a class one, one-A broadcaster.  Max Ferguson, how many
23     of you remember him?  Sitting in old rawhide.  He was
24     able to lift me out of my most sombre mood.  His
25     imitations were superior to that of any American person


 1     I have had the misfortune to hear.
 2  409                  I have heard his sketches full of
 3     satire and truth, but they were never mean-spirited. 
 4     And I had the privilege of meeting him at Ingonish and
 5     he even did an impersonation for us in the Ingonish
 6     Hall for an organ benefit my husband and I did.
 7  410                  And I could mention Don Messer's "Hoe
 8     Down" and "Tommy Hunter" demised before their time.
 9  411                  Now, what I dislike about radio --
10     the things I dislike are:  Oh, why do they keep saying
11     "20 minutes at the bottom of the hour" or "ten minutes
12     to the top of the hour".  If you don't have your
13     glasses on or worst still, if you're blind like my
14     husband or if the power's off, how the heck do you know
15     what the hour is and never mind if it's ten minutes to
16     or 20 at the bottom or whatever?
17  412                  I also have little sympathy for
18     announcers, radio and television, who can't learn to
19     pronounce important French surnames, such as Chrétien,
20     Marchand, Belliveau, not "Bell-i-veau" or la "provence"
21     de Quebec which has no "provences" -- it's a province,
22     not a state.  I hope it never will be.
23  413                  I find vulgarity disgusting and
24     unnecessary when it is on radio and TV and a bad
25     influence on children.  Many films, sexually explicit


 1     or depicting violence are shown too early in the
 2     evening and seen by children whose parents do not
 3     monitor their viewing.
 4  414                  I could talk about the French CBC TV
 5     in Quebec, but maybe that isn't relevant for here. 
 6     There are wonderful programs, including one in which
 7     Gilles Duceppe's father played in.  Now, there was a
 8     man.
 9  415                  "Air Farce" is still my favourite fun
10     program and long may it live.
11  416                  My very favourite CBC Radio programs
12     are the local ones.  "Island Morning", "Radio Noon",
13     the multi-faceted guest phone-in show hosted by Kostas
14     Salibrasos, Stan Currew(ph) brings his touch to early
15     Saturday and Sunday morning two-hour programs, but I
16     really preferred his predecessor, maybe because he was
17     an old fellow like me, closer to my age.
18  417                  "Compass" is the perfect end to a
19     perfect P.E.I. day.  There's something for everyone as
20     has been mentioned by other speakers.  From Tignish to
21     North Lake and from the South Shore to the North Shore. 
22     There's something so reassuring and permanent about
23     Roger Younker, and I shouldn't single him out because
24     we love all our CBC staff here.
25  418                  But Roger is our anchorman.  He's our


 1     own local Peter Mansbridge who belongs to the National,
 2     which is great to watch now that it's back at ten
 3     o'clock.
 4  419                  P.E.I. is small in size, but big in
 5     ideas, you better believe it.  Diversity in its people,
 6     occupations and communities.  Despite the bridge it is
 7     still somewhat insular and I hope it will remain that
 8     way.  It is part of that indefinable Island way of life
 9     which we who are Islanders either by birth or by
10     adoption, as I am, we cherish it without questioning or
11     questioning too much why.  We just cherish it, the
12     Island way of life.  Don't ask us what it is, but it's
13     there and we love it.  It's a feeling more than a
14     being.
15  420                  The local programs for radio and TV
16     nourish and bind us together as a province, just as the
17     other program nourish and bind us as a country, Canada.
18  421                  It puts the local programs, puts
19     everyone, politicians, MLAs, mayors, Federal Members of
20     Parliament, counsellors, working people, young and old
21     on an equal footing, because we can exercise our right
22     to talk back and discuss the pros and cons of the
23     issues that affect us, such as health cuts, cuts to
24     welfare, UI changes, even the name changed, land use
25     and we even discussed our dumps, where they should be


 1     and where they shouldn't be.  It's all important to us.
 2  422                  M. STEWART:  Madame Smith, je
 3     m'excuse, vous avez dépassé 14 minutes.
 4  423                  MME SMITH:  Excusez-moi, c'est mon
 5     défaut.  Je parle trop longtemps.  Excusez-moi,
 6     monsieur.  Est-ce que je pourrais juste résumer?
 7  424                  M. STEWART:  Oui, bien sûr.
 8  425                  MME SMITH:  Merci.  My apologies.  I
 9     always prepare too much to say and I just want to say
10     that we have provided many brains and talents for the
11     CBC over the years.
12  426                  Lenny Gallant, to name one, Theresa
13     Doyle, who you just saw, and I don't know how many of
14     you have seen, but you will see "Crumbfest" again, by
15     Professor David Weale of UPEI, it's going to become a
16     children's classic.  And the man who refers to himself
17     as "that old curmudgeon", the beloved Jack MacAndrew. 
18     He's Grandfather Mouse's voice, no less in that.
19  427                  So we have furnished many people,
20     Martha MacIsaac.  But we have even furnished a
21     Solicitor General for Canada, what do you think of
22     that?
23  428                  So have I made my case for CBC Radio
24     and TV?  I hope so.  And I hope that the national dream
25     of a railway, which is now a nightmare with our


 1     highways too crowded with trucks and the other cuts, I
 2     hope at least the CBC will remain to keep us bound
 3     together because we need it, because the present
 4     government doesn't need the province of Quebec to tear
 5     us apart, they're doing too good of a job as it is
 6     already.
 7  429                  So I will just stand by my holster
 8     which I made with -- it took me a lot of time and I'm
 9     not used to this type of work.
10  430                  I want to say that CBC Radio and TV
11     belongs to you and me.  We like CBC.  We want CBC.  We
12     deserve CBC.  We pay for CBC with our taxes, of course. 
13     Give us back our CBC and the sooner the better.
14  431                  Merci beaucoup mesdames and
15     messieurs.
16     --- Applause / Applaudissements
17  432                  LA PRÉSIDENTE DU CONSEIL:  Alors, sur
18     ces paroles, I would propose that we take a coffee
19     break for ten minutes and we will be back to pursue.
20  433                  Thank you.
21     --- Recess at 1507 / Suspension à 1507
22     --- Upon resuming at 1523 / Reprise à 1523
23  434                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
24     Please, to order.  We will start again.
25  435                  And we will try to stick to the ten


 1     minutes, if you want, because I don't want anyone to be
 2     late for dinner and we'd like to be starting the
 3     evening session as planned at six o'clock.
 4  436                  So with this in mind we will really
 5     keep our questions to ourselves, as well.
 6  437                  Mr. Stewart?
 7  438                  MR. STEWART:  Merci, Madame la
 8     Présidente.
 9  439                  And for the information of the people
10     here, once the ten minute mark has been reached I will
11     advise the presenter and it would be appreciated if one
12     could then conclude the remarks just as soon as
13     possible.
14  440                  I now call upon Ms Elaine Harrison to
15     make her presentation.  This is a slight change to the
16     order.
17  441                  MS HARRISON:  Am I heard by
18     everybody?  Good, because boy, I want to be heard.
19  442                  And if you want to come in on any
20     part of it, with a little refrain --
21  443                  MR. STEWART:  Excuse me.  Something
22     appears wrong with the microphone, I wonder if the
23     technical people --
24  444                  MS HARRISON:  I will try again.
25  445                  MR. STEWART:  I wonder, Madam, if you


 1     could, perhaps use another microphone.
 2  446                  MS HARRISON:  Do you want me to move?
 3     --- Pause / Pause
 5  447                  MS HARRISON:  How does that sound? 
 6     Still no good?
 7  448                  Thank you very much for asking me, I
 8     will try to get through this as fast as I can.
 9  449                  I'm delighted to be here this
10     afternoon.  And instead of my talking about the CBC, I
11     will have the CBC do the talking.
12  450                  I have been a great follower of the
13     CBC all my life, and it's a long time.  So here is the
14     refrain that I start with:  "I am the CBC.  I am the
15     voice of Canada and the Maritimes", of course.
16  451                  And if you want to come in on that
17     refrain so you can let your voices have a little bit of
18     play there, all you people who are observing, come in
19     with it whenever I start that, you say, "I am the CBC. 
20     I am the voice of Canada and the Maritimes", of course.
21  452                  From the Atlantic to the Pacific
22     Ocean.  From the Arctic to the Great Lakes, I sing the
23     songs and poems of the Maritimes.  The wide plains of
24     Saskatchewan and Manitoba and the peaks of the Rocky
25     Mountains.  I sing with Louis Marshall, Maureen


 1     Forrester, the Aylmer Aisler(ph) Singers, Rita MacNeil,
 2     with Anne Murray and Lenny Gallant, our Island Lenny
 3     Gallant, and other singers, of course.
 4  453                  How's that going now?
 5  454                  I tell the stories of W.O. Mitchell,
 6     Margaret Laurence, Farley Mowat, Margaret Atwood,
 7     Antony Meilleur, Michel Tremblay, Gabrielle Roy.  I am
 8     the CBC.  I am the voice of Canada.
 9  455                  Nobody's saying anything, you're all
10     shy.  Well, I'm not.
11  456                  I go on stage with Viola Léger(ph) as
12     "La Sagouine", with the cast of "Anne of Green Gables"
13     and "Emily of New Moon", and "Les Belles"(ph).  I dance
14     in the National Ballet and I clap my hands to accompany
15     the folk dancers and fiddlers from across the land.
16  457                  I listen to the Montreal Symphony and
17     to Glenn Gould, Harry Somers and all the others.
18  458                  I can't mention everybody or you'd be
19     here until midnight, but I am mentioning some of the
20     very outstanding ones that I like.
21  459                  I ponder ideas with the great
22     thinkers, Northrop Frye and Ursula Franklin, Norm
23     Chomsky(ph), John Soul(ph) in the Massey Lectures,
24     which the CBC is noted for.
25  460                  I am the CBC.  I am the voice of


 1     Canada.
 2  461                  Come on all you shy people.  I'm a
 3     bit of a clown, don't mind me, I'm rather serious here,
 4     but I would rather clown it up.  Like, I thought
 5     that -- what's her name who just stood before me -- she
 6     was wonderful.  We'd have a hard job to beat her.
 7  462                  I laugh with the "Air Farce", "This
 8     Hour Has 22 Minutes", Don Harron and Catherine
 9     McKinnon.  I talk with all those wonderful ones from
10     the Island show, Roger Younker, Karen Meair, Wayne
11     Collins and I like my Michael Enright and Averil Benoit
12     and Eleanor Walktel(ph), Edgar Arsenault, Betty
13     Howitt(ph), Jack MacAndrew or Vicki Gabereau, the whole
14     works.  I like the CBC.
15  463                  And I am the CBC.  And I certainly
16     have listened to it all my life.
17  464                  I will never forget Maggie
18     Muggins(ph), Rawhide.  I once sent Rawhide some
19     lobsters, which he -- and I wrote in his language, you
20     know, the way he was talking there, I could do that
21     quite easily too.
22  465                  Don Messer's Islanders, they were
23     great.  "The Friendly Giant" and the farm programs, I
24     forget the name of the farm program.
25  466                  And from Fernwood(ph) to Parliament


 1     Hill I cover the news.  I am the CBC.  I am the voice
 2     of Canada and the Maritimes.
 3  467                  I am the past of Canada and I am the
 4     future.  And in the present I'm being threatened, you
 5     know why, by -- I shouldn't say it, they might hear
 6     me -- by the politicians and people who want to silence
 7     me and cut me back with not enough money and then turn
 8     me into the voice -- Lord forbid -- of the American
 9     programs.
10  468                  And this same silencing threatens our
11     schools and universities, our health care and
12     hospitals, our unemployment insurance, our workers, all
13     these things that have made Canada great.
14  469                  But I don't think we will be
15     silenced, for I am the CBC.  I am the voice of Canada
16     and the Maritimes and Prince Edward Island most of all. 
17     So there I am.
18  470                  I hope I got through it fast enough. 
19     Thank you very much.
20  471                  I hope I didn't miss a page.
21     --- Applause / Applaudissements
22  472                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
23     Thank you.
24                                                        1532
25  473                  MR. STEWART:  I now invite Ms Madrien


 1     Ferris to make her presentation.
 3  474                  MS FERRIS:  Hello everybody.
 4  475                  I have been given two very difficult
 5     acts to follow.  I'm not sure I'm up to it.
 6  476                  What keeping CBC means to me as a
 7     Canadian, a Maritimer, an Islander and as a personal
 8     thing.  I see CBC as the communities bridging Canada.
 9  477                  As a Canadian it's connecting Canada
10     from one end to the other.  When you travel from
11     Newfoundland, a small village there to the Gulf Coast
12     Islands or to the far north, you still feel at home
13     because you hear familiar voices, you still feel
14     connected to the rest of the country.
15  478                  CBC provides an honest coverage of
16     topics of interest to all of us.  It is a venue for our
17     playwrights, our actors and our musicians.  And what a
18     talented group we have.
19  479                  As a Maritimer, it keeps us informed
20     of our sister provinces in an in-depth way.  It allows
21     us to become familiar with their problems and concerns.
22  480                  And as an Islander, well, we hear
23     about our local events, our regional and our national
24     events.  But on local CBC we hear and see more than
25     just a 30-second blurb on another station.


 1  481                  Just as an example, there was quite a
 2     snow storm up west, just since this trouble with the
 3     CBC has happened, and did we see any of it on local TV,
 4     no.  Did we hear very much about it on local radio, no. 
 5     And yet it was of deep concern with a lot of us with
 6     relatives and people in the western part of the Island.
 7  482                  We need this type of coverage here. 
 8     Somebody said we don't have bus or anything else.  We
 9     don't have a train.  So, the radio and television is
10     the connecting link on Prince Edward Island as well.
11  483                  We want and we should have and it is
12     our right to have the best communication possible and
13     that is CBC radio and television.  We have lost enough
14     here.
15  484                  Now, on a more personal note, I
16     recently suffered a heart attack.  Now, that's very
17     scary.  You are in a strange environment.  You are
18     hooked up to tubes.  You are hooked up to all kinds of
19     machines and you are petrified and that was the big
20     thing with me.  I was scared to death.  I was scared to
21     move.  A nurse asked me what I would like, if there was
22     anything I needed and I said, "I wish they would put a
23     TV in the ICU or a radio," because you just want to try
24     to get out of the way of all of these other things that
25     are happening to you.


 1  485                  So, she went out and she found a
 2     little radio for me.  This was around maybe 5:30 in the
 3     morning or something.  She took it in and put it on the
 4     CBC station.  My God, there was Karen and Wayne and for
 5     the first time since I had the heart attack I started
 6     to relax.  I closed my eyes and I imagined I was home
 7     in my own bed listening to this wonderful program that
 8     I wake up with every morning.  As I do with CBC, I wake
 9     up with it and it is probably the last thing that I
10     hear at night is an announced from CBC.
11  486                  So, it is not just a connecting link
12     for Canadians, but in my heart, for my heart, CBC was
13     the best thing that ever could have happened to me. 
14     Thank you.
15     --- Applause / Applaudissements
16  487                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
17     Thank you.
18  488                                                   1539
19  489                  MR. STEWART:  I now would invite
20     Ms Catherine Hennessey to make a presentation.
22  490                  MS HENNESSEY:  Thank you very much.
23  491                  Many of us here on this Island were
24     brought up with CFCY operated by the Rogers family.  I
25     think that their approach to broadcasting and their


 1     catholic tastes prepared us to be loyal CBC fans.  I
 2     certainly am proud to call myself one of those.
 3  492                  By listening and watching CBC
 4     broadcasting it has strengthened our connections
 5     trans-Canada wise and I have personally valued those
 6     connections with my family who are off in the west and
 7     my colleagues that work for similar causes as my own. 
 8     It has given me an understanding of problems in other
 9     parts of this country.
10  493                  Since the sixties I have been a
11     cultural activist.  It is awfully hard to be an
12     activist if you are being ignored.  So many of our
13     successes and public successes are due to the support
14     we have received on many of our causes from the CBC. 
15     Our quivering beginnings on both television and radio
16     were helped along -- not that we have stopped
17     quivering -- by the warmth and friendship of CBC staff.
18  494                  We have a staff in Charlottetown that
19     moves among us, whose friendships enrich our lives and
20     who have caused us to stretch and I think that one
21     could say that by doing this that their broadcasting
22     and their view of us and our heritage and culture has
23     been enriched.
24  495                  So, I just want to say that I, for
25     one, in my work have truly appreciated the support I


 1     have gotten over the years from CBC radio and
 2     television.
 3  496                  You say we have no power over money
 4     and maybe that's true.  I don't think we ask Canadians
 5     to contribute to the CBC cause financially enough.  I
 6     don't think we do it at all.  I don't think any of us
 7     have missed the overload of asking that goes on in
 8     public broadcasting in the United States and I feel
 9     that maybe we, who care so much, have to put our money
10     where our mouth is.
11  497                  Thank you very much.
12     --- Applause / Applaudissements
13  498                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
14     Thank you.
15                                                        1540
16  499                  MR. STEWART:  I now would invite
17     Ms Carla Morgan to make a presentation.  Is Ms Morgan
18     in the room?  No.
19  500                  Mr. Naylor who is next on the list
20     has advised that he will not be attending.  So I would
21     now invite Mr. Kip Smith to make his presentation.
23  501                  MR. SMITH:  Good afternoon.  I would
24     like to thank the Chair of the CRTC and the
25     Commissioner for visiting the province, as well as the


 1     nine others.  I hope you have a chance to hear from the
 2     territories as well because they too are distant from
 3     Toronto and Ottawa and city sensibility.  So, I will
 4     attempt to answer your four proposed question in kind
 5     of a general, narrative form.
 6  502                  I will admit at the top that I am an
 7     unabashed fan of public broadcasting, in particular
 8     CBC.  To me our Canadian Broadcasting Corporation has
 9     produced the best radio and television shows I have
10     ever heard or seen.
11  503                  Growing up in Virginia in the fifties
12     and sixties we had no public broadcasting available. 
13     Private radio stations had small news bureaus, short
14     newscasts made up of mostly ripped from the newswire
15     stories, with very little resources in our communities. 
16     The newscasts were jammed between commercials and pop
17     music.  National public radio in the U.S. was not
18     prominent at that time on the radio dial.  There was no
19     cable TV or independent news available, other than the
20     three major networks.
21  504                  News events around the world were
22     covered by corporations that have since been accused of
23     pushing a national and corporate agenda into their news
24     reports at that time, an agenda not necessarily present
25     in a national broadcaster.  This became obvious to me


 1     when I moved to P.E.I. in 1973.
 2  505                  Specifically, stories about the
 3     Vietnam war and politics in the U.S. were dramatically
 4     different here than in the States, and not because CBC
 5     reporters were ignorant of the facts or nuances of the
 6     stories.  They were not cheerleaders for the U.S.
 7     simply.  They were reporting for a neutral country with
 8     what seemed to be little bias.
 9  506                  In my opinion, CBC's news and current
10     affairs departments have been unparalleled by the
11     private broadcasters in the past, but I see and hear
12     that this has been changing.
13  507                  Over the years we have lost news
14     bureaus around the world and have had to rely on
15     reports from the private, general U.S. bureaus, such as
16     CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS.  I sense that these networks still
17     bring a U.S. bias and point of view to any story they
18     cover.  I sense that the Canadian perspective and
19     neutrality, peacemaking and evenness recognized around
20     the world is lost as the CBC cuts back their commitment
21     to news-gathering because of budget constraints.
22  508                  I hope that the CRTC could perhaps
23     specify that the news content of the CBC be Canadian,
24     that if they are going to get a budget for news that
25     they should have a foreign bureau in places that are


 1     important to Canadians.
 2  509                  Here on P.E.I., our local CBC station
 3     is a gem, but it seems that this station is threatened
 4     by a national policy governed by CBC in Toronto.  We
 5     keep hearing how regional supper-hour shows are a waste
 6     of money and resources and that they might be cut back. 
 7     Perhaps some or many of these shows around the country
 8     are losing viewers and ad revenue, but here on P.E.I.
 9     things are different.  This is a distinct community and
10     most of us gather around the TV at 6:00 p.m. to watch
11     our local news hour.  We watch our community reflected
12     back to us and by local people, familiar with all the
13     background necessary to inform us about the happenings
14     on our Island.
15  510                  This is a successful show with nearly
16     85 per cent viewership ratings in the first half
17     hour -- I am told that, and not a small amount of local
18     ad revenues.
19  511                  Your Commission has ruled that local
20     ad revenues must stay in the locality.  I urge you to
21     continue that policy and I urge you to find a way to
22     separate our successful local station from any new
23     national CBC policy that would cut broadcasting into
24     regions, and in particular on Prince Edward Island, in
25     favour of a national approach.


 1  512                  It's crucial to our Canadian
 2     community that the regions be allowed to reflect their
 3     communities to residents and to the rest of the nation. 
 4     We have already lost a lot here in Charlottetown.  We
 5     have had cuts to radio and television shows that did an
 6     excellent job of reflecting our community to ourselves
 7     and the nation.  Those cuts were general ones across
 8     the CBC system, regardless of the success of the
 9     ratings of the programming.
10  513                  "Sounds of the Island," a very
11     popular local variety TV show that showcased P.E.I.
12     musical talent was axed because of a national policy in
13     budget cuts.
14  514                  Unfortunately, a few years later,
15     Celtic and traditional music became famous world-wide,
16     but we had lost our show and Island talent had to find
17     other entrées into the burgeoning world of maritime
18     music.  That was an opportunity squandered.
19  515                  Another program, "Window on Resources
20     Television" was axed, even though it was popular on
21     P.E.I. and had a good viewership because it focused on
22     the main businesses here, farming, fishing, forestry
23     and even tourism.  For years we were without this
24     information asset until our own provincial government
25     began to produce their own program, "Focus on


 1     Resources," but that's on cable.  I live in a rural
 2     community.  I don't have cable, so I miss this program.
 3  516                  I think Islanders are much better off
 4     when they are informed about their main industries. 
 5     Either they are directly involved in them or affected
 6     by what happens in them.  A special case for the
 7     importance of community information can be made here on
 8     P.E.I.
 9  517                  I worked as a broadcast journalist,
10     production assistant, freelancer in radio here at CBC
11     from 1980 to 1986.  We produced the "Radio Noon Show"
12     and "Soundings," the maritime fisheries broadcast, a
13     solid hour of information for the important industries
14     on the Island and in the maritimes.
15  518                  We sent many stories on to the region
16     and the national radio shows.  We developed expertise
17     and background in the industry.
18  519                  Since our main beats were the primary
19     resource industries so important to P.E.I.'s economy,
20     our contacts with the players in the industry, our
21     background file cabinets grew.  We attained credibility
22     in the eyes of those in the industry, those working in
23     government departments and with the listeners, many of
24     whom were not in the industries, but interested in our
25     stories nonetheless.


 1  520                  We got a lot of feedback from
 2     Islanders and when we took the time to go on location
 3     at fairs, rallies, public meetings, then a decision was
 4     made at CBC headquarters in Toronto, cut the local
 5     radio noon shows, cut narrow casting shows, like the
 6     fishermen's broadcasting.  Regionalize the shows to the
 7     maritimes by broadcasting from Halifax and, oh yes,
 8     change the focus from industry-style information to
 9     information for the consumer.
10  521                  Those cutbacks cut our staff
11     drastically.  Now one reporter broadcasts for "Radio
12     Noon Maritimes" from P.E.I. and each of his stories
13     must pass the test, will it play in Halifax, an urban
14     environment removed from what we call here the Island
15     way of life.
16  522                  Concurrent with those cutbacks and
17     loss of information shows was a crisis in the Atlantic
18     fishery unlike any ever seen before.  Fishermen were
19     left with no fisheries broadcast to deal with their
20     important issues and provide information to a
21     separated, widely divergent industry.  I know this
22     because when I was laid off at CBC I bought into a
23     fishing enterprise.
24  523                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  This is not a
25     good-lucky story, is it?  Does it have a happy ending?


 1  524                  MR. SMITH:  Oh, yes.
 2  525                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Oh, good.
 3  526                  MR. SMITH:  And from that I got
 4     involved in fishermen's groups and then represented
 5     fishermen in the maritimes.  And I know how important
 6     it would have been to have a central focal point for
 7     information.
 8  527                  Divergent groups, all over the
 9     maritimes, different groups, different priorities --
10     information, you know, good, straight, clean
11     information for the fishermen was not to be had and you
12     still see, you know, problems within that industry
13     because of a lack of cohesiveness information between
14     the groups, and governments suffered too because of
15     this.
16  528                  Also, since the loss of our local
17     radio noon, unique problems and challenges have arisen
18     in P.E.I.'s agriculture.  Ask any farmer.  There has
19     been an information vacuum for years -- years in crisis
20     for Island farmers, not Halifax farmers, but for Island
21     farmers.
22  529                  Recently, Island wood lot owners have
23     faced a crisis in receiving information about a
24     proposed forestry practices code and have not been
25     informed very well by the local media.


 1  530                  Government and industry people
 2     mistrust each other, and that is what is being
 3     portrayed in the media, more heat than illumination. 
 4     With apologies to the local CBC radio, like a news
 5     gatherer for the news shows, and especially when they
 6     feed into the maritimes, they might not have the
 7     background that a specialist in the resource industries
 8     used to have.
 9  531                  The stories are generally shorter
10     stories and it has come out of Toronto too.  The
11     stories they look for are protagonists/antagonists;
12     conflict, a little bit of heat, a little bit of
13     illumination, something that you will find on the
14     private broadcasters because this is what Toronto
15     thinks people want to see and hear.
16  532                  I fear that mergers within the media
17     are concentrating the control of the private media;
18     radio, TV and newspapers in the hands of a few, who
19     will likely continue to foist their own editorial slant
20     on the news.  This centralization of control
21     underscores the requirement that an unfettered, free
22     and neutral public broadcaster should remain well
23     funded and effective.
24  533                  I think CBC keeps the private media
25     sources honest.  There is an increased concentration of


 1     corporate ownership of Canada's media.  The CBC
 2     provides the needed counter-balance to make sure that
 3     important stories are told and sometimes in depth.
 4  534                  "Live at Five", and that's on a
 5     private broadcaster, is a good indication of what a
 6     private broadcaster would do -- a formula show that was
 7     dreamed up in the States and they had all kinds of
 8     specialists come up here and tell them how to make the
 9     set and stand in front of it and do that kind of quick
10     sound-bite news that CBC, I hope, never gets to.
11  535                  MR. STEWART:  Excuse me, Mr. Smith. 
12     You have hit the 10-minute mark.
13  536                  MR. SMITH:  All right.  I will just
14     finish up.
15  537                  I am concerned about the political
16     pressure that can be brought to bear on the Corporation
17     by a Board appointed by the government in power.  The
18     President of the CRTC is appointed by the Prime
19     Minister.  It could be seen to be less than
20     independent.
21  538                  Also, the Board of the CBC is
22     appointed by Cabinet.  I see a problem with that.  I
23     hope the CRTC would consider making that from a
24     committee in Parliament or with somebody who is
25     answerable to all parties, all Canadians.


 1  539                  I would like to see the CRTC
 2     reinstate a surcharge that you used to talk about on
 3     cable networks that broadcast non-Canadian shows. 
 4     There is a bit of revenue there for CBC.  Make it even
 5     a show-by-show tax.
 6  540                  I would like to see the CRTC make it
 7     a condition of CBC's licence that Radio-Canada
 8     International remain in business.  That presents a
 9     Canadian perspective to the world.
10  541                  From what we found here on the
11     Island, no matter what stories we told here, they might
12     seem small Island stories, but there is no such thing
13     as a small story.  They are all universal.  I would
14     like for the chance of Island stories to continue to be
15     told.
16  542                  Lastly, the Internet, you might hear,
17     well, you could pick up Radio Australia or what you
18     want.  I just remind the CRTC that the Internet is not
19     free and it is not necessarily accessible to each and
20     every computer.  You have to have an up-to-date
21     computer and even here on the Island with community
22     access sites, they don't have the speakers and sound
23     cards, et cetera.  So, that's not an answer and it
24     won't take the place of the CBC.
25  543                  Lastly, TV productions, private TV


 1     productions must be supported by and aired on CBC. 
 2     Thank you.
 3     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 4  544                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
 5     Thank you, sir.
 6                                                        1550
 7  545                  MR. STEWART:  I now invite
 8     Mr. William Minnis to make his presentation.
10  546                  MR. MINNIS:  Thank you.
11  547                  Madam Chairperson, as others have
12     said, I very much appreciate the opportunity to make a
13     presentation to you.  I am also a very strong
14     supporters of the CBC, both radio and television.
15  548                  I would like to begin with kudos as
16     well, since several have been delivered earlier.  I
17     find that the Atlantic coverage is quite good out of
18     Halifax.  I am a great fan of Kostas Salibrasos and one
19     particularly good reporter I find, Mr. Mac Campbell. 
20     The "Radio Noon Show" is really outstanding.  The
21     Island "Morning Encompass" programs from the Island are
22     also excellent.
23  549                  I will never get over the CBC cutting
24     out my "Sunday Morning".  I will never forgive them
25     and, frankly, I miss Nancy White and her satirical


 1     approach to life.  We need more satire in the process.
 2  550                  I must, as others have said also,
 3     state that the CBC has been quite important to me over
 4     my lifetime.  First, in my only link with Canada and
 5     the world while growing up in a very remote northern
 6     community, where the time one could spend listening to
 7     the CBC was limited only by the number of batteries
 8     that father could fly into a remote community.  CBC
 9     Watrous, Saskatchewan was an early part of one's life.
10  551                  I have lived in all regions of Canada
11     and it has been essential as a youngster growing up to
12     learn of the country through the CBC.  It was an
13     essential learning tool.
14  552                  Lastly, it has been a link to Canada
15     for me during nearly 20 years of foreign military
16     service, all through Radio Canada International.
17  553                  Some of my views, if I may.  I  see
18     politicization as a very discomforting thing.  I have
19     just completed 37 years of military service as a senior
20     officer and I have observed the politicization of an
21     institution, a Canadian institution and a professional
22     officer corps in that time.  It is a complex and
23     controversial matter, but the process is insidious.  It
24     is continuous and in the case of the Canadian Forces it
25     has been extremely damaging.


 1  554                  I like the Oxford Concise definition
 2     of "politicization", quote, "give political character
 3     to," unquote.  Undue control by government is not
 4     necessarily in the public's best interest.  I leave
 5     that at that.
 6  555                  Please strive to continue the balance
 7     between national and regional service -- regional
 8     meaning local as well as regional.  Canada is just too
 9     large to do without regional coverage.
10  556                  Next, I believe the CBC must strive
11     to continue to increase reporting from beyond our
12     shores.  The closure of foreign bureaus is a terrible
13     thing.  Our future as a nation depends upon public
14     understandings of important issues facing this country
15     externally.  They are external to the domestic debate
16     and issues, but they must be understood and dealt with.
17  557                  I believe Canadians to be rather
18     provincial folk, if I may be so bold, and we must know
19     and understand this rather cruel and unstable world
20     beyond our daily lives.  We tend to focus inward to a
21     great extent.  It is wonderful, but it is also
22     dangerous and we will be at risk to forces we do not
23     understand and the CBC, I am afraid, plays a very large
24     part in ensuring that understanding of that world to
25     Canadians, not that an attempt is not made to do so,


 1     but I stress that it must not be reduced.  If anything,
 2     increased.
 3  558                  All of this from one who has seen
 4     ample evidence of our fellow man's willingness to use
 5     whatever means necessary to achieve their own ends.  I
 6     would like to remind you that in much of the world
 7     Canada is very small potatoes indeed.
 8  559                  We may think we are big, but in many
 9     parts of the world not quite seen the same way, and
10     vulnerable, by the way.
11  560                  Now, to the next issue of commercials
12     on television.  I have had the good fortune of living
13     in a number of other countries, in particularly Norway
14     and The Netherlands, where the national television
15     organizations organize commercials in a segmented form. 
16     Several other speaks have mentioned that.  It's quite
17     effective.
18  561                  Unquestionably, the commercials are
19     necessary, but can we apply some ingenious thinking to
20     some way to partial them a little more acceptably?
21  562                  I mentioned Radio Canada
22     International.  Many Canadians have never heard of it,
23     let alone hear it, but it is very important to
24     Canadians overseas.  It has kept me sane in various
25     parts of the world from team sites in the jungles of


 1     Vietnam to the Sinai Desert to the African bush, and
 2     quite critical to those who live outside of our
 3     country.
 4  563                  Next, I would add a personal view
 5     that the CBC must strive to strengthen other important
 6     national institutions.  And, in my particular case, I
 7     quote the Canadian Forces.  I am a strong fan of the
 8     RCMP as well, amongst other organizations and
 9     institutions of course.
10  564                  I understand the CRTC's role in
11     ensuring the accountability of public institutions, but
12     the CBC must be very careful to achieve balanced
13     reporting.  A gentleman here earlier mentioned Rwanda
14     and, in fact, the gentleman he referred to is a general
15     named Roméo Dallaire -- you have heard of him -- who
16     sees himself very much as a scapegoat and did for some
17     considerable time.  Only now I think is his name being
18     adequately cleared and the entire Rwanda/United Nations
19     affair being put into perspective.
20  565                  I know him extremely well.  You could
21     not find a more dedicated, honest, professional
22     officer.  He is now suffering very badly from
23     post-traumatic stress disorder.  He may never be the
24     same man, and part of his trauma, I believe, and I
25     don't wish to personalize this excessively and perhaps


 1     I should not be quoted in saying so, but I know that
 2     for some time he felt that Canadians probably saw him
 3     as guilty of something.  Adequate context and coverage
 4     could have perhaps prevented that impression being
 5     gotten by Canadians.
 6  566                  Now, it is a complex issue and there
 7     are many opinions on the matter, I realize.  That just
 8     happens to be mine.
 9  567                  For every brick removed or dealt with
10     one must be replaced and the wall should be
11     strengthened at the end of the process.
12  568                  I absolutely hate sensationalist
13     journalism, as so many speakers have said today, and I
14     find it creeping in continually to CBC television.  We
15     must try and avoid that kind of journalism, that style
16     of journalism.
17  569                  I don't wish to overstate the case,
18     but I think it is fair to posit that Canada still faces
19     very considerable obstacles to its survival as a
20     sovereign nation in the decades to come.  We may be
21     overly complacent.
22  570                  Certainly, survival as a sovereign
23     nation, able to pursue the betterment of its people, as
24     opposed to becoming a resource base and a holiday
25     destination for an America about to steamroller an


 1     unsuspecting world, and an unformed public is obviously
 2     critical to this process.  And the CBC is a great
 3     nation builder and this must continue.
 4  571                  The only question I have is -- it's
 5     not a question so much as a sense of frustration in
 6     looking for the leadership necessary in this country to
 7     somehow strengthen this Corporation.  I see and sense a
 8     great void of leadership.  I don't know from whence it
 9     will come, but it must be forthcoming.  I just wonder
10     how Canadians can take the actions necessary to have
11     their voices heard to deal with this considerable
12     obstacle to the survival of the CBC.
13  572                  Thank you very much.
14     --- Applause / Applaudissements
15  573                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
16     Thank you.
17                                                        1600
18  574                  MR. STEWART:  I now invite Mr. Eric
19     Silva and Ms Betty Andric to make their presentation.
21  575                  MS ANDRIC:  Thank you very much.
22  576                  My name is Elizabeth or Betty Andric,
23     as you said.  I am here to speak on behalf of the
24     P.E.I. Association for Newcomers to Canada.
25  577                  Speaking of names, I must tell you


 1     that the CBC is very good in pronouncing the names. 
 2     There were some complaints before about the French
 3     pronunciation of some things, but Americans tend to
 4     make all the international names sound English.  When I
 5     hear "Michelangelo" my hair goes like this.  It is
 6     "Michelangelo".  He was Italian.  Anyway, CBC is doing
 7     pretty well in that.
 8  578                  This is especially important for us. 
 9     We are newcomers to Canada and coming from Europe where
10     this diversity is even greater, this is of great
11     importance, I can tell you that.
12  579                  CBC local programming is extremely
13     important to our organization, the Association for
14     Newcomers to Canada, to all the individuals who are
15     working there and to newcomers as well.
16  580                  The P.E.I. Association for Newcomers
17     helps newcomers to integrate by providing services in
18     partnership with the community.  The only way we can
19     get to the public, except for the personal contact with
20     our clients, is through the local media.
21  581                  CBC radio and television were always
22     very helpful for that matter.  Whether we wanted to get
23     profiled and tell the audience about our activities or
24     they were looking for an interesting story about a
25     newcomer or about what was happening in the countries


 1     where new Islanders came from.
 2  582                  Shows like "Island Morning" are very
 3     useful for us.  We want to hear our local news, weather
 4     and about local events and schedules.  We like to hear
 5     stories about interesting Islanders, employment
 6     opportunities, cultural events.
 7  583                  We pass this information to our
 8     clients and that way help them to integrate into the
 9     community sooner.
10  584                  There is another aspect, besides
11     being the local source of information, CBC Prince
12     Edward Island is a part of the national television.  I
13     think this is very important and that way it's an
14     important link for our province with the rest of
15     Canada.
16  585                  Any local story can end up being
17     broadcast nationally, which would happen very rarely or
18     never if we didn't have that link.
19  586                  Also, we are very connected as a very
20     small and isolated province to the rest of Canada and
21     what is happening there.  The CBC provides the
22     connection to multiculturalism and the diversity of
23     Canadian experience.
24  587                  The CBC also brings us international
25     news.  There was some criticism before from some of the


 1     speakers, but I still think that the CBC is better than
 2     most of the American TV stations and radio stations on
 3     that matter.
 4  588                  Somebody mentioned news about car
 5     accidents.  Like, this doesn't mean too much to me, if
 6     there was a car accident in Boston or something like
 7     that.
 8  589                  Why else is the CBC important to
 9     newcomers?  As you might have noticed, I am a newcomer
10     myself.  I have been on P.E.I. only for two and a half
11     years now.  I don't have this deeply rooted personal
12     connection with CBC, but I can very well understand why
13     it is important to support this matter.
14  590                  I come from Croatia, a country that
15     was recently torn by the war, unfortunately.  There we
16     have learned about the importance of information in a
17     very, very drastic way.  I will tell you a little
18     story.  My family and I had some very difficult moments
19     in the war and very scary moments.  I will tell you
20     which one was the scariest.
21  591                  It happened that they bombed the
22     Croatian National Radio and TV tower and our local
23     radio in the same day and we didn't have any
24     information for the following few days.  We just didn't
25     have any idea of what was going on.  The only news we


 1     could hear at that time was from an improvised radio
 2     station established the extremists that were shooting
 3     at us at the time.  You cannot imagine how scary it is
 4     to be isolated, hearing all these grenades falling
 5     around and not knowing what was going on.
 6  592                  We didn't know what to do, whether we
 7     were supposed to sit and wait or run away and how long
 8     this would last, how far were our attackers from us and
 9     will they soon knock at our doors.
10  593                  Luckily, all our good Slovenian
11     neighbours lent one of their TV towers to Croatian TV
12     to use and in a couple of days we were able to hear the
13     news.  It was very poor quality sound and picture, but
14     I can't tell you how happy we were when we finally
15     heard our news again.  This example shows us how
16     important the media and the information is to people.
17  594                  The government cutbacks that are
18     causing this situation with the CBC are very much like
19     a bombing.  They are just not that drastic and which
20     makes it even more difficult to fight back because it
21     is not so obvious in some ways because if you have a
22     bombed TV tower you know what you have to do, but with
23     this it is much more detailed and sophisticated matter.
24  595                  There is another thing I should
25     mention here, the monopoly media is the worst thing


 1     that can happen to a community.  And it is very
 2     important that we don't let a small number of corporate
 3     owners to filter the information we are getting. 
 4     People have to have a choice.
 5  596                  I can give you another drastic
 6     example which is very fresh.  For the second time now,
 7     the government in Serbia shut down all the independent
 8     media and the only information people are getting is
 9     coming from the government controlled radio, TV and
10     newspaper.  I can tell you that people in Belgrade know
11     less about the situation in Kosovo than we do here.
12  597                  And I would also like to say how
13     important it is to have a public source of information,
14     as opposed to private stations.  We believe the CBC has
15     a different mandate from other private TV and radio
16     stations by bringing us stories that are not in the
17     program for the pure reason of making money with
18     commercials and everything, but to provide us with
19     information of educational, moral and other similar
20     values and to make us aware of important issues on
21     Prince Edward Island, in Canada and the rest of the
22     world.
23  598                  I would like to thank you for giving
24     me and the P.E.I. Association for Newcomers to Canada
25     this opportunity to express our thoughts and feelings


 1     about the CBC.  I sincerely hope that our effort will
 2     help the CBC to stay a part of our community and
 3     continue providing us with all the valuable
 4     programming.
 5  599                  Now, I would like to pass the
 6     microphone to my fellow newcomer.  He is actually not a
 7     newcomer any more.  He has been here for 12 years and
 8     he can tell you his thoughts.
 9  600                  MR. SILVA:  My name is Eric Silva.  I
10     am originally from Nicaragua.  I have been living in
11     P.E.I. for the past 12 years.  I am a direct supporter
12     of the CBC because I find when I have an idea that is
13     important to us because communication and information,
14     this is the question and at the same time, it is
15     important because it is part of our culture and our
16     heritage.
17  601                  It is important to support the CBC
18     because of the programming that they have.  In my
19     background, as I say, in my background I am Latin
20     American and we have the idea that it is important for
21     us to maintain and to grow and to enrich our culture. 
22     As I mentioned, what we are doing here is catching the
23     good part of the Canadian culture, but at the same time
24     too I would like to preserve my background, my culture
25     too, and mix both together.


 1  602                  How can we do that if we would like
 2     to preserve our culture?  We would like to educate our
 3     children with the mix of both cultures -- the mix of
 4     the cultures that has the goodness in there.
 5  603                  The media is educational and for that
 6     we feel as immigrants that it is important to preserve
 7     and to grow and to enrich its programming.  As an
 8     educated person I love to listen to classical music,
 9     but I am coming from Latin America and I would also to
10     preserve my cultural heritage and to pass on those
11     feelings to the future generations of my children.  I
12     feel it is important and that is why as an immigrant we
13     support and we stand with the CBC.
14  604                  MR. STEWART:  Excuse me, sir, but you
15     have reached the 10-minute mark.  So, if you wish to
16     conclude your remarks by -- I don't want to stop you
17     right there, but if you could very, very shortly
18     conclude your remarks it would be most appreciated. 
19     Thank you.
20  605                  MR. SILVA:  As I say, everybody has
21     remarked on so many different issues and subject to
22     that I would like to support them too.  Thank you very
23     much.
24     --- Applause / Applaudissements
25  606                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 


 1     Thank you.
 2                                                        1610
 3  607                  MR. STEWART:  I now invite Mr. Robert
 4     Boyer to make his presentation.
 6  608                  MR. BOYER:  Thank you very much.
 7  609                  The significance of this building was
 8     brought up earlier, but I think I wanted to say again,
 9     as well as -- I mean, it is a communication edifice in
10     itself.  This building communicates the national dream. 
11     It communicates Canadians to Canadians.
12  610                  A few metres away the nation was
13     born, in a way.  Obviously, we all know about
14     Confederation and that took place a few metres from
15     this building.
16  611                  One of the gentlemen there went on to
17     build the national railroad, which was another form of
18     communication.  It was a way of getting messages back
19     and forth in a quicker manner.  It connected people
20     from one end of this continent to another in so many
21     ways.
22  612                  When CBC came along it did the same
23     via the radio.  I think that's a remarkable achievement
24     and I think it is one that we all share as being vital. 
25     Television the same way, but not quite the same way.


 1  613                  The CBC will prevail and it will rise
 2     above the current crisis, as it has in the past.  It
 3     must -- the CBC is a national treasure.  My great aunt
 4     was participating in one of these forums in the 1940s
 5     and I think she took another whack at it during the
 6     Diefenbaker period, in 1957 or thereabouts.
 7  614                  So, it is going to prevail. 
 8     Canadians will insist that it prevails and governments
 9     come and governments go, but with the assistance of the
10     CRTC and its mandate, public radio and public
11     information, public broadcasting I know will prevail.
12  615                  Public radio and television is vital
13     to our national unity, as well as a primary cultural
14     vehicle for Canadians.  My comments today are primarily
15     views on CBC Radio One, Two and really the
16     international service, as this other gentleman
17     mentioned.
18  616                  As radio has been really the daily
19     component of my source of entertainment, news, local
20     and international for over 25 years, wherever I am in
21     this country the CBC connects me to my neighbours and
22     to my strangers.  I don't know anybody across the
23     country by name often, but you begin to know them after
24     a while, due to our ability to hear their stories and
25     to hear their news.


 1  617                  Issues are brought to us from across
 2     the country, music, art, science, et cetera.  In total,
 3     everything that counts comes across through the radio
 4     wave really and I think that is so vital to us.  Public
 5     broadcasting keeps the public entertained and informed. 
 6     CBC is really vital to all of us and is really not a
 7     drain on the national purse, as some would have us
 8     believe.
 9  618                  I know your mandate is not to talk
10     about money, but it truly isn't a huge sum.
11  619                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  We can talk
12     about it.  We just don't have any to give away, that's
13     the difference, but we are quite happy to hear your
15  620                  MR. BOYER:  Well, actually, if you
16     hear the amount that we pay per day, or what I did hear
17     once before, it is very minimal.  I heard once the CBC
18     cost each Canadian seven cents a day.  That's somewhat
19     out of date, I imagine, but not by too much.
20  621                  Whatever the figure is, it's a
21     bargain.  And the cutting of about a third of the CBC
22     budget recently is nothing more than really a national
23     disgrace, not to mention the critical jobs that create
24     this wonderful public broadcasting system, that's also
25     disheartening at every level, the local, the regional


 1     and the national.  All three of those components are
 2     very critical.  None can be of any value without the
 3     other.  If you don't have the local, you don't have the
 4     regional, you don't have the national and it works in
 5     reverse, frankly, very simply.
 6  622                  There have been serious flaws in
 7     judgment, firstly, I think by the federal government,
 8     and, subsequently, by the board of directors and
 9     probably senior management in this whole issue. 
10     Directives from these sources I think has seriously
11     eroded the ability of the CBC to function in the
12     national interest and to deliver its mandate to
13     Canadians.
14  623                  I think this is certainly an area
15     where the CRTC needs to re-evaluate how, who and
16     where -- how the directors are brought forward, how the
17     management teams are put together at senior level.
18  624                  It is really critical I think in
19     public broadcasting and in public television, but more
20     so broadcasting, that people who know how the
21     creativity works and how it comes together really sit
22     closer to the top in terms of how to make decisions
23     that come down the line.
24  625                  I can't tell you the number of cases
25     I have known of people working in the CBC at various


 1     levels off and on, who know that the people above have
 2     virtually no understanding of what it is they are
 3     producing and how valuable it is to the nation.  So, I
 4     think that's important.
 5  626                  They really have to know what creates
 6     the magic, I think, and then somewhere that has not
 7     been happening.  We have lost that a little bit prior
 8     to the things that have happened.
 9  627                  I also think that we were enjoying
10     this before a kind of forced, I guess I would say
11     private business view that has become the order of the
12     day at CBC.  Senior management and directors have
13     failed Canadians by not demanding restoration of
14     funding cuts.  Instead there seems to be an attitude of
15     take the best offer, make do with it, to change the
16     mandate of public service to that of a servant of the
17     bottom line viewpoint, and I don't really think that's
18     going to work in public broadcasting or in the public
19     sphere.
20  628                  I think the federal government
21     recently promised something called sustainable funding. 
22     Well, after removing $400 million or more from the
23     budget, as well as staff positions that were very
24     valuable, how can something be sustained if it is
25     mortally wounded?  I mean it just doesn't make sense. 


 1     I think that's a bit of bafflegab actually and not very
 2     valuable.
 3  629                  The CRTC, I think, has a role to
 4     assist Canadians to restoring the values of public
 5     broadcasting.  I think that is a role you should have
 6     and I am sure you do.  I think with what has been said
 7     today you need to get at it.
 8  630                  Funding for public radio must be
 9     restored and in the amounts necessary for public radio
10     and TV to survive and to serve public interest across
11     Canada and the territories.  We now have a new
12     territory.  I don't even know how to spell it yet.  I
13     hope in time we begin to learn more about it.
14  631                  It is interesting the way they formed
15     their government recently and it wasn't along party
16     lines.  I kind of like that.
17  632                  And without such restrictive strings
18     attached, that creative and quality programming is
19     compromised as is seemingly the case I think at the
20     moment.
21  633                  I guess a few comments on CBC-TV
22     might be in order.  I think the directions in new
23     programming are moving, generally, in a fairly good
24     direction and favourably.  However, it is becoming
25     impossible to watch it or enjoy it because of


 1     commercials and the extent of them and the frequency,
 2     and the banality of them, frankly.
 3  634                  So, I have stopped watching almost
 4     completely the television portion of CBC, which I
 5     regret often, but I really can't seem to do it any more
 6     unless I have my hand on the mute button and that
 7     becomes about the only way I will get through it with
 8     the commercial interruptions.
 9  635                  I heard senior management comment
10     during the "Cross Country Check-up" program recently
11     that commercials have been increased to raise revenues
12     from $150 million to $300 million.  It would seem to
13     me, and this may be an issue in the whole situation
14     with commercials and public funding -- it would seem to
15     me that there is a significant overhead in production
16     and management costs to creating the commercial, that
17     direct public funding would really in a sense eliminate
18     I think in some way.
19  636                  There is a whole series of issues
20     that need to be addressed there at that level in terms
21     of what really does cost the most money and where can
22     that money be used better in order to create the
23     programming that we I think are beginning to get in
24     television.
25  637                  The issues of branding consumerism


 1     and all the rest of it, I don't think that's a role for
 2     public television or broadcasting.  I think it is
 3     necessary to reduce that considerably, and so I think
 4     that might be a way of doing it.
 5  638                  CBC radio.  Well, I think it is
 6     obvious I am a believer in this public broadcasting
 7     system and format, and the Commission has asked us to
 8     address some suggested questions for the forum.  While
 9     these questions may seem legitimate, and they certainly
10     are to some degree, but I think they are already being
11     answered just by the discussions and by our comments,
12     so I won't answer to them directly one by one.  I guess
13     I would say I think they are being answered, generally,
14     and I think very well on the whole.
15  639                  Maybe by naming some radio programs
16     that are part of my life and I think that answers maybe
17     more directly these questions, and I will just take a
18     moment and read a list of them.  I think it is
19     important to put on the record the programs that make
20     up radio that are critical.
21  640                  "Ideas", "Saturday Afternoon at the
22     Opera", "Sound Advice", "On Stage", "Sunday Showcase",
23     "This Morning", "Radio Noon", "Island Morning", "Take
24     Five", "Radio Two and Performance", "Choral Concert",
25     "Symphony Hall", "Two New Hours", "CBC Radio


 1     Overnight" -- that is very, very critical and I think
 2     that has been one of the best things that has ever
 3     happened.
 4  641                  We now know as Canadians that public
 5     broadcasting isn't just a Canadian venture.  It is
 6     worldwide and some very significant stations in the
 7     world are portraying that service beautifully.  We
 8     should really understand the value of it.  Maybe those
 9     systems have answered some of the questions that you
10     need to answer for your recommendations.  They may have
11     those already down pat.
12  642                  I certainly think Radio Finland might
13     and a couple of others, The Netherlands, the BBC, et
14     cetera.
15  643                  MR. STEWART:  Excuse me, sir.  You
16     have reached the 10-minute mark.
17  644                  MR. BOYER:  Thank you.
18  645                  I will close very quickly by saying
19     that the CBC Symphony Orchestra in Vancouver is a very
20     vital link musically across the country.  Do you know,
21     that's the only one left in North America.  That's it. 
22     The only public radio symphony orchestra left, so
23     that's very important.
24  646                  One suggestion I would like to make
25     is that the CBC reinstate the radio guide again in its


 1     old format.  It doesn't work coming through Saturday
 2     night.  It's rather taken apart.  It doesn't give you
 3     the chance to see it, view it, review it, so if you are
 4     travelling or if you want to plan your listening
 5     habits, this was an extraordinary document.  I think
 6     one man did it.  He retired.  They said they couldn't
 7     afford to put it together any more.
 8  647                  Well, I think they are spending a
 9     great deal more money on 1-800 numbers where you get
10     nowhere and all the rest of it.  So, I think this
11     document had better come back into fore and I think it
12     will really make a difference.
13  648                  In conclusion, I guess I would like
14     to thank the employees who make up the CBC and public
15     broadcasting, the writers, announcers, research people,
16     host, technical people, musicians and everyone.  You
17     are really appreciated.
18  649                  I think here on the Island, "Island
19     Morning" is one of the best host shows for
20     communication of issues.  Karen Mair and Wayne Collins
21     do a phenomenal job.  I thank you.
22  650                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
23     Thank you.
24     --- Applause / Applaudissements
25                                                        1625


 1  651                  M. STEWART:  Je voudrais inviter
 2     maintenant M. Benoît Henri à faire sa présentation.
 4  652                  M. HENRI:  Bonjour.
 5  653                  Mon voisin de table et quelqu'un
 6     d'autre avant lui a commencé par parler de ce que
 7     pouvait symboliser le Centre des Arts de la
 8     Confédération.  Moi, je commencerais par dire que sa
 9     première et sa plus grande qualité c'est d'être là,
10     d'exister, qu'on puisse y entrer, y pénétrer.
11  654                  Cette image va d'abord me permettre
12     de souligner une initiative qui est heureuse à
13     Radio-Canada, celle d'avoir installé un centre de
14     production radiophonique ici à Charlottetown pour
15     desservir la communauté acadienne francophone de
16     l'Île-du-Prince-Édouard.  Ce centre de production est
17     là depuis maintenant deux ans et cette décision a été
18     une décision qui a été très certainement bénéfique pour
19     la communauté acadienne et francophone.
20  655                  J'ai l'impression et je parle... en
21     fait, j'aimerais revenir un peu en arrière et me
22     présenter:  Benoît Henri.  Je suis Directeur-général de
23     la Fédération culturelle de l'Île-du-Prince-Édouard,
24     qui est un organisme qui regroupe treize organisations
25     membres, dont des comités culturels régionaux, un


 1     musée, le seul journal francophone à
 2     l'Île-du-Prince-Édouard, "La Voix acadienne".  Le
 3     Centre des Arts de la Confédération est également un
 4     membre de la Fédération culturelle.
 5  656                  Donc, je crois que ce centre de
 6     production est très important pour la communauté ici à
 7     l'Île-du-Prince-Édouard.  C'était la première chose que
 8     je voulais souligner dans ce qui m'apparaît être
 9     important et positif dans le rôle que peut jouer
10     Radio-Canada ici à l'Île-du-Prince-Édouard.
11  657                  La deuxième chose que je veux
12     soulever qui est, à mon sens, aussi une réussite et
13     vers laquelle Radio-Canada doit continuer à mettre des
14     efforts c'est précisément sa venue sur l'internet, son
15     site Web, qui est un site intéressant.  Par contre, ce
16     qu'il faut dire c'est que j'attendais avec impatience
17     la venue de la version Atlantique du site Web parce
18     que, bon, je vous parlais du centre de production... ce
19     sont les trois seules et uniques heures de production
20     qui sont faites ici à l'Île-du-Prince-Édouard.
21  658                  Pour le reste, bien, il y a une
22     programmation Atlantique.  Dans cette programmation
23     Atlantique, il y a notamment le "Ce soir", par exemple,
24     les nouvelles.  Moi je ne peux pas les prendre les
25     nouvelles à 6 h parce que j'ai deux jeunes enfants et


 1     puis avec deux jeunes enfants de cinq ans et d'un an et
 2     demi, bien à 6 h, il y a d'autre chose à faire.  Donc,
 3     de pouvoir visionner le "Ce soir" sur l'internet, pour
 4     moi, c'est une chose intéressante et les efforts
 5     doivent être poursuivis.
 6  659                  Par contre, en ce qui concerne la
 7     présentation des nouvelles elles-mêmes, on peut
 8     constater que le site de Radio-Canada est très en
 9     retard.  Des fois, on a des nouvelles qui sont vieilles
10     de 48 heures et puis parfois même davantage.  Donc, la
11     mise à jour semble faire défaut.
12  660                  Ceci étant dit, ça c'est des choses
13     qui m'apparaissent positifs.  Radio-Canada, ceci étant
14     dit également, vous devez renouveler, bien sûr, et vous
15     allez le faire, c'est entendu, la licence de
16     Radio-Canada.  Ceci étant dit, il y a une difficulté et
17     puis la difficulté vous l'avez certainement déjà
18     entendu quand vous étiez à Moncton.
19  661                  La difficulté ici elle est double: 
20     être en périphérie d'une centre qui lui-même est en
21     périphérie d'un autre centre, c'est-à-dire nous sommes
22     en périphérie à l'Île-du-Prince-Édouard de Moncton qui,
23     lui-même est en périphérie de Montréal, bon, implique
24     une dynamique qui parfois fait en sorte que... bien en
25     fait qui fait en sorte qu'on se voit peu, on s'entend


 1     peu dans toute le reste de la programmation.
 2  662                  Bien sûr, Radio-Canada vient quand on
 3     les invite.  On les invite à venir enregistrer le Gala
 4     de la Chanson.  Ils le font et on est très heureux de
 5     ça.  On les a invité dernièrement à faire une
 6     présentation de l'émission "Retour à la Maison",
 7     "Déclic!".  Ils sont venus au cours de l'hiver.  C'est
 8     tant mieux mais c'est des petites périodes.  Le temps
 9     qui est consacré ne reflète plus... j'entendais des
10     artistes qui disaient combien ils étaient heureux...
11     combien Radio-Canada leur avait permis d'avoir une
12     carrière.  J'aimerais que des artistes acadiens de
13     l'Île-du-Prince-Édouard puissent dire la même chose. 
14     On ne les entend pas suffisamment sur les ondes de
15     Radio-Canada.
16  663                  Ensuite, en ce qui concerne le rôle
17     de télédiffuseur national, on veut être davantage vu et
18     entendu, c'est clair, mais pas seulement au niveau des
19     informations, même au niveau de la variété.  Je pense,
20     au cours des dernières années, une des émissions qui a
21     sans doute remporté beaucoup de succès c'est "À l'ombre
22     de l'épervier".
23  664                  Qu'est-ce que c'était "À l'ombre de
24     l'épervier"?  C'est des pêcheurs gaspésiens qui, par
25     ailleurs, partageaient à peu près la même réalité que


 1     les pêcheurs de la péninsule acadienne.  Après avoir vu
 2     le succès qu'a remporté une série comme celle-là, on ne
 3     peut quand même pas nous dire que, par exemple, le
 4     public québécois ne peut pas être intéressé par quelque
 5     chose qui ne le concerne... ou le public montréalais ne
 6     peut pas être intéressé par quelque chose qui vient de
 7     l'extérieur.  Ces gens-là, ces Gaspésiens, parlaient
 8     avec un accent qui se compare à la limite avec celui
 9     des Acadiens.
10  665                  Bref, Radio-Canada doit rester mais
11     il y a encore un effort certainement à fournir, non
12     seulement au niveau de l'information mais aussi au
13     niveau de l'ensemble de la programmation pour que les
14     communautés à travers le Canada puissent davantage s'y
15     voir, s'y entendre et se sentir représentées.
16  666                  Voilà.  Merci.
17  667                  LA PRÉSIDENTE DU CONSEIL:  Merci,
18     Monsieur Henri.
19  668                  Ça ressemble en effet à des
20     commentaires qu'on a entendu à Moncton hier.  Merci
21     beaucoup.
22                                                        1630
23  669                  MR. STEWART:  I would now like to
24     invite Mr. Terry MacCabe to make his presentation.


 1  670                  MR. MacCABE:  Let me begin today just
 2     by saying that I am not the most intelligent person in
 3     the world, and I think I continue to speak most of you
 4     will probably begin to see what I am saying and maybe
 5     agree with me.
 6  671                  I want to thank you for the
 7     opportunity to be here today.  My name is Terry
 8     MacCabe.  I am the senior minister at Central Street
 9     Christian Church in Summerside.  I am here as a
10     minister today.  I am here as a husband today.  I am
11     here as a father today.  I am here as a Christian
12     today.  To bring to life some concerns that I have as
13     those different persons as I come here today to address
14     the CRTC hearing and I thank you again for that
15     opportunity.
16  672                  Let me start by saying I don't like
17     this country: I love it.  I don't like the maritimes. 
18     I don't like P.E.I.  I love P.E.I.  It's part of who I
19     am, and because of that I don't just like the CBC.  I
20     love it.  It is one of the greatest things that this
21     country has going for it.  It's hard to preach when you
22     are sitting down, isn't it.
23     --- Laughter / Rires
24  673                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You are
25     managing it though.  You are going the distance.


 1  674                  MR. MacCABE:  Yeah.  I know you
 2     didn't come to hear a sermon and I won't give one, but
 3     it may sound like that and for that I apologize.
 4  675                  At the church I minister at we often
 5     find ourselves discussing CBC programming.  Often it is
 6     in relation to CBC television.  It causes some church
 7     members a great deal of concern to think that their
 8     money is contributing to the CBC programming budget,
 9     particularly those who have children are concerned with
10     what is being presented on CBC.  And let me say that
11     for me that is a big concern because I hear the CBC
12     announcer so often saying, "We are concerned about the
13     fact that our young people don't seem to be listening
14     to CBC."
15  676                  Well, I am here today, as all those
16     things I already mentioned, but I think also as a young
17     person.  I am all of 25-years old and as I look around
18     the room I realize that I am one of the youngest people
19     here.
20  677                  My friends don't just dislike the
21     CBC.  They disdain the CBC.  They don't have any
22     understanding of why I like it and I tease them for
23     listening to the local commercial radio shows and they
24     often tease me for listening to the CBC.  It concerns
25     me also that there is talk of starting a Radio Three


 1     for young people.  Please, don't do that.  Make them
 2     come to us.  They will come eventually because CBC is
 3     so great they will come eventually.
 4  678                  Last night at a church function,
 5     getting back to my notes, I mentioned that I would be
 6     here today to do this presentation and here are just a
 7     few of the comments that were raised by other people at
 8     the church.  One person said, "CBC is the foulest
 9     channel on the television."  Out of all the channels he
10     has in his gamut of cable -- in my house we get one
11     channel, it's the CBC, so it's a good thing I love it,
12     he said it's the foulest.  That comment was made by a
13     man in his early forties, the father of two small
14     children.
15  679                  Another man said, "CBC has so much
16     great programming, it's unfortunate that they degrade
17     it with all the other stuff."  That was made by a man
18     in his early sixties.
19  680                  Another man said this, "If they are
20     going to produce that kind of crap, we need to find a
21     way to stop contributing our tax dollars to it."
22  681                  Why are these people so upset?  What
23     are they so concerned about?  One example that I would
24     bring to mind is an animated character on CBC
25     television from 4:00 to 6:00 named Coquette Fréchette. 


 1     Coquette regularly uses profanity and has often made
 2     sexual comments that many adults would not repeat in
 3     public.
 4  682                  One occasion I remember, Coquette
 5     encouraging children who were being confronted by their
 6     teacher at school for not having done their homework to
 7     ask the teacher if he's doing it with the janitorial
 8     staff.
 9  683                  Kids aren't stupid.  They know that
10     "doing it" means having sexual intercourse.  I feel and
11     we feel that there is a serious lack of respect in
12     Canada in the Canadian classroom in students for the
13     teachers.  And our question is:  Why on earth is the
14     CBC contributing to that and encouraging our children,
15     our young people who that time slot is directed to, why
16     is the CBC encouraging these young people to consider
17     their teachers, those who they should have respect for
18     in such a degrading manner.
19  684                  As a result of this type of afternoon
20     programming, most people with small children that I
21     know say they can't allow their children to watch CBC
22     from 4:00 to 6:00.
23  685                  Another concern is the content of the
24     adult programming aired in some prime-time slots.  One
25     episode of "On the Arts" that I watched, which is


 1     hosted by Lori Brown, one of the subjects of her
 2     interviews was the subject of female erotica.  During
 3     an interview with a guest in which the topic of
 4     discussion was erotic literature written by women,
 5     several pornographic pictures were displayed.  This
 6     show airs from 7:00 to 7:30 on Tuesday, a time in which
 7     many children are still up watching TV.
 8  686                  In my opinion, this is a completely
 9     inappropriate show for the CBC to run and in an
10     unquestionably inappropriate time slot.
11  687                  Another concern that many Christians
12     have is what is perceived at least as a promotion of
13     the homosexual lifestyle that CBC seems to have
14     adopted.  For years the CBC aired "Kids in the Hall"
15     from 9:00 to 9:30 on Thursday.  Again, a time of which
16     many young teenagers are still up and watching TV. 
17     These young teens are just developing sexually and
18     beginning to understand sexuality and "Kids in the
19     Hall" never, or at least very seldom had an episode
20     that did not include a skit that involved
21     homosexuality.
22  688                  Then there was the CBC comedy special
23     called "In Through the Out Door" which focused solely
24     on homosexuality.  There is still a large portion of
25     people in this country who believe that homosexual


 1     behaviour is wrong.  And don't get me wrong, I am not a
 2     homophobe.  I don't hate homosexuals, okay.  I have
 3     several friends who are homosexual, more than I could
 4     count on both hands, but at the same time we don't want
 5     that lifestyle promoted to our young children.  There
 6     are still a lot of us out there who would agree with
 7     that.
 8  689                  A final concern that is often raised
 9     in my church circle is one that you probably never
10     considered and that is the blatant misuse of the name
11     of our God in both CBC-TV and radio.  My wife and I
12     love the show "Black Harbour", but we had to decide to
13     stop watching it because of the incessant use of the
14     words "Jesus Christ".  You need to understand that the
15     name Jesus Christ is the most precious name in the
16     world to a Christian and to hear it defiled over and
17     over again is incredibly disheartening.
18  690                  We would all think it very strange if
19     someone used the term "Allah", the Muslim name for God,
20     over and over again as a curse.  It would seem
21     ridiculous to us.  We simply wouldn't do that to our
22     Muslim friends.  Allah is a holy name to them, not to
23     be misused.  Well, that is exactly what the words
24     "Jesus Christ" and "God" are to the Christians.
25  691                  Quite often CBC radio plays a song


 1     called "My God, Why Didn't Grandma Teach Me Gaelic" by
 2     Nancy White.  Well, I must tell you I don't know of
 3     another song in the world that offends me as much as
 4     that one.  It's utterly profane.  When it comes on, the
 5     radio goes off and I don't turn it on again for a long
 6     time.
 7  692                  The CBC is turning millions of
 8     Christians off the CBC with such programming.  Quite
 9     often, when I bring up these matters with people, the
10     response is "If you don't like it, just turn it off"
11     and quite often we do.
12  693                  My question today:  Is that the type
13     of programming that we want to put on our public
14     broadcaster?  Do we want to promote and develop shows
15     that people who have strong moral values can't watch? 
16     Thank you.
17     --- Applause / Applaudissements
18  694                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
19     Thank you, sir.
20                                                        1638
21  695                  MR. STEWART:  I would now like to
22     invite Mr. Tony Reddin to make his presentation.
24  696                  MR. REDDIN:  Thanks.  I don't have
25     anything written.  I just want to take the chance to


 1     speak in support of the CBC and I appreciate the chance
 2     to do so.
 3  697                  I would start by saying, though, that
 4     I think it would be easy to be cynical of this process,
 5     as with so many processes that we have seen lately it
 6     might appear to be just a chance for people to blow off
 7     steam and I sure hope that's not the situation.
 8  698                  I, as a long-time volunteer in Oxfam,
 9     an international developmental organization, and in the
10     Environmental Coalition and other environmental groups,
11     have seen the real strong need for good media, both to
12     support community organizations in their publicity and
13     information, and to promote critical thinking in
14     general and very much in terms of giving us good
15     investigative journalism to cover issues that might not
16     otherwise get covered.  I guess I bring that up because
17     I have seen it seems to me the quality of journalism
18     increase in the last few years.  Naturally, we forecast
19     that when we look at the corporate media becoming more
20     concentrated.
21  699                  But I would hope that the CBC would
22     take the direction of increasing that type of
23     journalism and that to me is really the biggest role
24     for the CBC.  As Kip Smith said so well, the other
25     media follow CBC and when the CBC does a good job they


 1     are under pressure to meet that.
 2  700                  I think the service cannot do
 3     anything better than expand.  I think to have a radio
 4     station geared to youth is a terrific idea.  Indeed, it
 5     seems to me there is no reason not to have other
 6     expansion of radio.  It's a relatively cheap media and
 7     it would be nice to have more choice of good radio,
 8     both in terms of culture and music and again journalism
 9     and information.
10  701                  On the local level, the importance is
11     critical for local organizations and just for the
12     culture of the local area of P.E.I. in particular, the
13     maritimes.
14  702                  On a national level, I think it again
15     comes back to good journalism.  Investigative
16     journalism that gives people real information on the
17     issues that are so important to having good government
18     and a good critical look at both government and other
19     institutions.
20  703                  Then, someone else mentioned the
21     international perspective that we see so little of and
22     that CBC could do so much more of telling us what is
23     done in other countries with all these various issues. 
24     It is something that hardly ever comes up, it seems to
25     me.  The late-night programs, of course, do give us a


 1     taste of that, but it is nothing compared to what good
 2     journalism could do.
 3  704                  And I guess the other thing I did
 4     want to mention is that there are, of course,
 5     alternative media, magazines especially, that do a
 6     great job given their limited resources of covering
 7     issues and giving us a good, critical viewpoint of many
 8     issues.  So there is no question that the issues are
 9     there and CBC has a big role to fill there.  So, I hope
10     you can expand and grow and prosper.
11  705                  Thank you.
12     --- Applause / Applaudissements
13  706                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
14     Thank you.
15                                                        1645
16  707                  MR. STEWART:  I now would like to
17     invite Mr. Angus Orford to speak.
19  708                  MR. ORFORD:  Thank you very much for
20     the opportunity to address the CRTC today.
21  709                  Most of my comments, and I only have
22     a half a dozen points to make, are directed at the
23     local station because that's what I am most familiar
24     with.
25  710                  The CBC programming represents the


 1     only option for areas such as the Island.  News and
 2     cultural programming is what the CBC primarily
 3     represents for Prince Edward Island and what I believe
 4     the CBC is apparently very good at.
 5  711                  The effectiveness of this station is
 6     in delivering local, regional and national news I
 7     believe could be used as a model for what the CBC
 8     should become.
 9  712                  As the bulk of the funding for the
10     CBC comes from the tax dollar, I believe, therefore, it
11     does not have to be a slave to ratings.  I believe this
12     is a real opportunity in delivering the alternative
13     programming with a focus on Canadian culture.
14  713                  An emphasis, I believe, should be
15     placed on programming that helps unify the country and
16     there have been a number of people that have made a
17     comment to that effect, and promote the best and the
18     highest possible ideals.  I have in brackets here "The
19     Simpsons" don't count.
20  714                  As mentioned by a number of the
21     presenters, Canada does run a risk of being absorbed
22     into the American culture.  I don't think there are too
23     many people that don't believe that there is definitely
24     a need for public broadcasting to maintain that
25     distinction.


 1  715                  I believe nationally the CBC should
 2     avoid or try to minimize duplication of programming
 3     that is best delivered by the private sector.  And to
 4     waste a  lot of energy and tax dollars in head-to-head
 5     competition with the private sector just seems somewhat
 6     asinine.
 7  716                  A number of the comments from people
 8     around the table was it certainly fulfils a role and a
 9     market that definitely has to be fulfilled, but why
10     duplicate what somebody else is already doing, a
11     private-sector company that is providing tax revenues.
12  717                  With respect to an article in which I
13     saw the CBC being referred to as the TBC, the Toronto
14     Broadcasting Corporation, I just think that -- the
15     thought crossed my mind that there is really no
16     physical or geographical parameters that dictate where
17     the corporate headquarters of the organization should
18     be.
19  718                  With respect to the Coast Guard or
20     the Navy, we would hope that they would be out in the
21     water, but with the CBC in a medium that travels at the
22     speed of light, really corporate headquarters could be
23     anywhere in Canada.
24  719                  My familiarity with the local station
25     here is that it is very good.  It is an exceptional


 1     model of an organization that promotes community
 2     involvement.
 3  720                  I will put on my hat as the incoming
 4     Chairman of the Provincial Easter Seals Campaign.  I
 5     will be taking over after speaker No. 6, he either
 6     steps down or gets impeached.  I can say that the
 7     success of that fundraiser would be quite different if
 8     it didn't have the CBC's support, but the organization
 9     out here also undertakes a number of things that
10     demonstrates that they are part of the community.  They
11     have turkey drives at Christmas and yard sales,
12     cultural events that they take part in, includes story
13     festivals and live poet societies.  These are just a
14     few examples as to the local CBC and how it is an
15     integral part of this Island community.
16  721                  I find the CBC organization here very
17     approachable and willing to lend a hand.  Part of my
18     professional responsibilities at -- I work for the
19     power company here as an engineer, but my
20     responsibilities are also corporate communications. 
21     Well, we have a good relationship in being able to
22     communicate with our customers.  In particular, our
23     utility has an approval rating that is 85 per cent. 
24     Well, not too many people feel warm and fuzzy about
25     their  electric utility, but part of it is being able


 1     to get messages out and communicate with customers.
 2  722                  Locally, the station, radio and TV
 3     personalities are often called upon to MC special
 4     events.  They do so not only because it is the right
 5     thing to do, but also because I believe it is community
 6     pride.
 7  723                  CBC on the Island, and P.E.I. covers
 8     North Cape to East Point, and I believe contributes to
 9     the unity of the small collection of communities that
10     make up Prince Edward Island.  Again, I think this
11     local operation could be used as a model to define what
12     possibly the future role of this national organization
13     should be.
14  724                  Thank you.
15     --- Applause / Applaudissements
16  725                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Just a
17     really, really quick question because we have no time. 
18     Will the local private radio stations not help with the
19     Easter Seals campaign?
20  726                  MR. ORFORD:  Oh, yes.  In fact, with
21     the present circumstances one of the local radio
22     stations may come to help out, but it's something that
23     the CBC-TV, and I am talking TV and radio certainly
24     want to help out with.  This may just be a hiatus if it
25     doesn't work out this year.


 1  727                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I am glad to
 2     hear that.
 3  728                  MR. ORFORD:  Yes.
 4                                                        1650
 5  729                  MR. STEWART:  I now invite Mr. Ling
 6     to make his presentation.
 8  730                  MR. LING:  Thank you.
 9  731                  Good afternoon.  My name is Nils
10     Ling.  I am a playwright, a theatrical producer, a
11     performer, a Festival organization and a writer and a
12     broadcaster who chooses, for all of the right reasons,
13     to make his home here in Prince Edward Island.
14  732                  For the past 13 years I have
15     contributed a weekly nationally syndicated column to
16     the CBC radio.  I have also been a regular columnist
17     for CBC television, both locally and nationally, and I
18     have worked also within the CBC as well.  I am no
19     longer employed by the CBC, but I worked for six years
20     as one of the hosts of the local afternoon program on
21     CBC radio, "Main Street".
22  733                  I have always taken my work at CBC
23     seriously, even when it meant poking fun of people and
24     institutions.  I grew up in a military family and even
25     though it was peacetime, we never once doubted that my


 1     dad was defending the country.
 2  734                  I joined an organization that I felt
 3     and still feel also has a critical role to play in
 4     defending the country because while the Soviets never
 5     did launch any missiles and all those drills where we
 6     hid under our school desks, as if that was going to do
 7     any good, turned out to be a big waste of time.  In
 8     fact, now this country is under attack and its only
 9     line of national defence is a series of transmission
10     towers.  Well, okay, we do have a fleet of submarines
11     in the West Edmonton Mall, but still --
12  735                  This spring your organization, the
13     conservator of our national airwaves, is considering
14     the CBC's application for a renewal of its licence. 
15     You asked for public input on this question and I am
16     sure over the next little while you are going to get
17     many representations.  Among them will be presentations
18     from the CBC itself, reassuring you and the people of
19     Canada that its best and brightest are still doing a
20     wonderful job.
21  736                  When I was getting ready for this
22     afternoon I breezed through the Corporation's annual
23     report.  I ran across a line in there that made me spit
24     my Coke all over the keyboard, page 18 under "English
25     Radio".  In the section about regional reflections,


 1     after noting that English radio came across an extra $6
 2     million, the report says:
 3                            "On Radio One that additional
 4                            money meant all local and
 5                            regional time periods were
 6                            retained and weekday noon and
 7                            afternoon shows were
 8                            revitalized."
 9  737                  Man oh man, revitalized.  I guess I
10     use a different thesaurus than these people.  I would
11     have said "gutted" because I was there and that's what
12     happened.
13  738                  Three years ago "Main Street" here on
14     Prince Edward Island had a staff of four who worked
15     every day to bring Prince Edward Island audiences a
16     show that hit them where they lived.  It was a cultural
17     beacon in this community.  The show, and its producer,
18     Sheryl MacKay, was given an award of merit from the
19     P.E.I. Museum and Heritage Foundation for its work in
20     promoting the heritage and culture of this place.
21  739                  The show earned the undying gratitude
22     of artists and musicians across Atlantic Canada, some
23     of whom will be making presentations to you here on the
24     Island and others who you might hear from.  In short,
25     it reflected Prince Edward Islanders to themselves.


 1  740                  And you know what?  We had an
 2     audience too.  Our audience was by share larger by far
 3     than most other CBC radio afternoon shows across the
 4     country, and that audience told us in focus groups and
 5     on the street, day after day after day, that they loved
 6     and appreciated what we were doing.
 7  741                  So, of course, the deep thinkers at
 8     CBC came to us to find out what we were doing that was
 9     so good.  Right?  Well, not so much.
10  742                  In order to save money, and I am
11     going to get back to this money thing in a few minutes,
12     they decided to reduce the show here to a staff of two
13     and have all afternoon shows across the country adopt a
14     news and current affairs profile.  Much different than
15     the arts, entertainment and culture profile that they
16     had had originally.
17  743                  The shows would feature syndicated
18     items fed out of Toronto, interviews lined up by
19     Toronto according to an agenda that was devised in --
20     gee, does anybody see a pattern forming here.  There
21     would as well, and there is still local stuff, a lot of
22     local items and you have heard from some of the people
23     who do those items, but that's what we have now.
24  744                  The people on the show here are
25     extraordinarily talented and it is often painful to


 1     listen to that talent being squandered reading intros
 2     about home schooling programs in Windsor, Ontario or
 3     apple picking in Kelowna, when you know, as I know from
 4     talking to audiences and knowing what our audiences
 5     wanted for years, when you know that that stuff has
 6     very little relevance to the people of Prince Edward
 7     Island and to the faithful and loyal listeners of that
 8     show.
 9  745                  The people on the show would like to
10     do more, but essentially they aren't allowed and even
11     if they were, they can't.  There's not enough of them.
12  746                  Well, the CBC calls that a response
13     to the fiscal cutbacks.  That's why they had the
14     cutback.  They reduced the number of people on the
15     show.  That's a load of crap.  That's like coming home
16     to my wife and telling her, "I don't have enough money
17     for food, but check out the new VCR I bought" because
18     in CBC, as in life, it's all about choices.
19  747                  And one of your jobs when you are
20     reviewing their licence application is to insist that
21     this publicly-owned corporation makes choices that are
22     consistent with its mandate and with the needs of its
23     owners who are not, by the way, Perrin Beatty, Alec
24     Frane or even Guylaine Saucier.
25  748                  One of the choices CBC has made is to


 1     invest a great deal of money with much more to come in
 2     the Internet.  It's the way of the future they say. 
 3     That's where our audience will eventually be.
 4  749                  In the message from the Chair,
 5     Guylaine Saucier says she is heartened by the
 6     connection the Internet has made to rural, remote and
 7     northern communities and promises that this is only the
 8     beginning.
 9  750                  Well, aside from the sheer goofiness
10     of anyone believing that there are a lot of laptops
11     connected to snowmobiles in the north, I am distressed
12     by this fascination with the Internet by a bloated,
13     slow thinking public corporation that is no more likely
14     to compete well on the Internet than I am to outrun
15     Donovan Bailey.  They can't do it and they never will
16     be able to.  You have to understand how these people
17     work and think, compared to the rate at which Internet
18     technology and Internet tastes change.  They haven't
19     got a prayer.  But it's the way of the future.
20  751                  Do you know what it's like?  It's
21     like this old guy who takes himself a trophy mistress. 
22     Oh, she's cute and sexy and his friends at the country
23     club really admire him squiring her around.  Of course
24     the younger people laugh behind his back, and meanwhile
25     a loving wife who has suffered long and hard is being


 1     ignored and her friends, who used to count on her to
 2     take them places, stop calling after awhile, and the
 3     killer is, he is spending her trust fund money.
 4  752                  I think this body should insist that
 5     the CBC takes the millions that it is pouring into the
 6     toilet preparing for an audience it does not currently
 7     have and may never have in a technology for which it is
 8     fundamentally by its nature unsuited and give that
 9     money to the local stations and say, "Here.  Now
10     revitalize your afternoon shows, except use the
11     dictionary definition of the word."
12  753                  Since the time I joined the CBC there
13     has always been this fixation on luring a younger
14     audience to CBC radio.  "We need to draw a younger
15     demographic," they say.  Again, that's crap.  Don't let
16     them say that to you, and they are going to try.
17  754                  I am sorry, but I have got teenage
18     kids, and how about that, they are much like I was when
19     I was a teenager.  It's God's little way of getting
20     even with us.  When I was a teenager I didn't listen to
21     CBC radio and neither will my kids.  I don't want them
22     to.  I don't want -- I want them to have a normal
23     youth.  It's not normal to spend your teenage years
24     worrying about the Charlottetown Accord or the APEC
25     Inquiry or the local fish plant strike.  I want them to


 1     listen to music and dance and be brainless.  Thank God
 2     we have got private radio for that.
 3     --- Laughter / Rires
 4  755                  MR. LING:  And private radio exists
 5     because of my kids.  My kids are what private radio
 6     sells to its advertisers.  My kids are the product that
 7     Majic 93 produces and sells.  Well, CBC radio has a
 8     very different product.  Its product is the programs,
 9     thoughtful, provocative, occasionally annoying,
10     sometimes precious or pompous, or pretentious, but
11     these are programs designed for people who have a taste
12     for them and who have already paid for them.
13  756                  My kids have never paid one nickel
14     towards the CBC and, if you asked them, they wouldn't. 
15     It's only when you get older and you realize the value
16     of something like this.  It's an acquired taste and, do
17     you know what, it should be.  It's single malt scotch. 
18     The kids like lemon gin and, God love them, somebody
19     has to.
20  757                  The CBC insists on trying to find
21     ways to mix Smarties in with the Brussels sprouts,
22     making a dish that nobody wants to eat.  Because
23     private radio needs to produce audiences, it needs to
24     rely on music that it knows will generate those 
25     audiences and American music which is promoted on TV


 1     and in the movies and which is a product of a culture
 2     that knows how to sell is going to be the staple of
 3     private radio.  My kids know more about the Back Street
 4     Boys and Brittany Spears and Hit Me Baby One More Time
 5     than they know about most Canadian groups.  Well, I'm
 6     okay with that.
 7  758                  I grew up with the Beatles and the
 8     Stones and the Beach Boys.  I am still Canadian.  But
 9     my national broadcaster doesn't have a single thing to
10     gain by playing artists from the U.S. or anywhere else
11     in the world.  There is no convincing reason that
12     anyone can give me why the CBC should not be required
13     to play 100 per cent Canadian music on our national
14     radio service.  None.  Maybe there was --
15  759                  MR. STEWART:  Excuse me, sir, you
16     have reached the time limit.  It would be appreciated
17     if you would conclude.
18  760                  MR. LING:  If the producers of CBC
19     radio programs can't find a way to play 100 per cent
20     Canadian content, they should be fired and make way for
21     someone who can.
22  761                  I just want to say that nobody in the
23     room loves CBC more than me and nobody realizes how
24     important it is to the communities.  Locally, here it
25     is vital to this community, but they need to be told


 1     that the job that they were required to do, that they
 2     are mandated to do and that was designed for them to do
 3     is not the job that they currently invented for
 4     themselves, the job, it's loyal listening audience
 5     deserves.
 6  762                  Thank you for your time.
 7     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 8  763                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You have got
 9     to learn to speak your mind, Mr. Ling.
10                                                        1700
11  764                  MR. STEWART:  I now invite Ms Betty
12     Howatt to make a presentation.
14  765                  MS HOWATT:  It's not fair that I
15     should have to follow Nils Ling.  In fact, about the
16     only way I could make an impact I think would be either
17     to present in rap form or to get up on the table and
18     tap dance.  Now, I don't particularly care for rap
19     music and I never could tap dance, even when I was
20     younger and much more physically able.
21  766                  Well, whom do I represent today?  The
22     words "ordinary" and "grass roots" were so misused,
23     overused.  They were callous to the point that we can
24     hardly accept then any more.  So, I thought, well, I
25     will look in the dictionary and see if there isn't


 1     something other than grass roots.  What does grass
 2     roots mean?
 3  767                  And the first word that was given as
 4     a definition, not as a synonym, but as a definition,
 5     was "essential".  Isn't that wonderful.  I am an
 6     essential, an essential person and each one of you who
 7     has come from the background that I have come from is
 8     an essential person when it comes to presentations to
 9     anything in this country.  We are essential.
10  768                  But being here at the tail-end of the
11     afternoon is something akin to sitting through music
12     festival presentations.  You know, children of age 7 or
13     8 and they were all playing "In an English Country
14     Garden" or something like that and the adjudicators
15     would be wondering and we would think, well, about
16     their ten thousand, million, brain cells, how many are
17     still awake.  And that's almost the same situation
18     here.
19  769                  But we must continue because it is
20     only by speaking these essential people that those in
21     power will understand just how important the CBC is to
22     us here.
23  770                  Now, I may be speaking in a
24     light-hearted manner, but I am very serious.  I am very
25     serious about what I have to say.


 1  771                  Gordon Lightfoot's song, "There was a
 2     time in this fair land when the railroads did not run." 
 3     Well, you know, that might have been true for a large
 4     part of the country at one time, but it still applies
 5     in this province and that wonderful steel rail that
 6     tied the country together no longer exists here.
 7  772                  So, what do we have?  We have the
 8     radio system.  It scares me to think that I have
 9     somewhat the same thoughts as Nils has presented to
10     you, but the idea of these people being connected by a
11     radio system from one coast to another coast to a third
12     one is very important.  I can listen to radio and hear
13     the opinions of people on the west coast and the voices
14     of the radio announcers are voices of old friends.
15  773                  It is very important in this country
16     that we should have that linkage.  In some ways -- I
17     don't know whether any of you people remember the old
18     party telephone lines.  They had their drawbacks, but
19     it was a good thing in many ways.  And the programming
20     that we have here on Prince Edward Island, the local
21     programming reminds me somewhat of that.
22  774                  We can rely on local programming to
23     keep us in touch from one end of the province to the
24     other.  Now, that may not seem very important in a
25     large city.  In fact, I think that's one of the things


 1     that is lacking in a large city is people do not know
 2     who their neighbours are.  And I don't mean just the
 3     person who lives next door.
 4  775                  CBC has provided and should continue
 5     to provide a service of better quality than the private
 6     sector does and a greater variety.
 7  776                  Canada's Food Guide recommends a
 8     large variety of foods in order to maintain a healthy
 9     physical state.  Our mental faculties need a good
10     mixture as well, news, information, education,
11     entertainment.  Sometimes it is rather difficult to
12     decide into which category a program should go because
13     it covers so many of these things.
14  777                  With a wide-ranging choice in both
15     radio and television we can pick and choose to suit our
16     tastes because we can't expect that we shall have the
17     things that we like all the time.
18  778                  For me, one hour of Ben Hepner is
19     much more to be enjoyed than six hours of "Hockey Night
20     in Canada", but yet I know there are people who will
21     enjoy six hours of "Hockey Night in Canada", but I can
22     go and do something else and read.  I am in the same
23     position as one of these other persons, that we do not
24     have cable in a rural area and we have not invested in
25     a satellite dish.  We have, what my husband calls, two


 1     and a half channels on our television set.  So, we pick
 2     and choose.
 3  779                  It's something like a meal I suppose. 
 4     "The Nature of Things" is a whole meal in itself, as
 5     far as I am concerned.  It's a bad time to be talking
 6     about food, isn't it?
 7  780                  Last evening I turned on the radio to
 8     try to get a news broadcast.  Because of the present
 9     upset in the situation I am not listening to radio, but
10     I wanted to try to get a little bit of news and I
11     turned it on a few minutes early and got a program, I
12     think it was from somewhere in Ontario, one of these
13     substitutes, fill-ins at the present time and someone
14     was singing.  "The sun ain't going to rise any more,
15     the moon ain't going to shine any more, baby."  Well,
16     that is not the kind of programming that I want on CBC,
17     but, of course, it must suit someone, so I shall have
18     to continue to pick and choose.
19  781                  Regional programming on Saturday and
20     Sunday can be tolerated.  I use the word "tolerated". 
21     I know there are some who insist that we have got to go
22     back to having local programming on Saturday and
23     Sunday.  But to one who understands that on a statutory
24     holiday we just about disappear entirely, I can accept
25     that Saturday and Sunday aren't going to be the things


 1     that I totally want.
 2  782                  In our business we don't really have
 3     statutory holidays.  Good Friday and Christmas Day,
 4     yes.  The rest of the year we are pretty much on call
 5     and we have had people coming to our door at three
 6     o'clock in the morning and at ten o'clock at night and
 7     the holiday means nothing.  There are so many times --
 8     we turn on the radio before we get out of bed in the
 9     morning and by the programming I can tell that it's a
10     statutory holiday because it is so different.  It has
11     very little relationship to what we do here in this
12     province.
13  783                  We at present receive six hours of
14     local programming, three of radio in the morning, two
15     in the afternoon and one of television and we will not
16     be content with less.
17  784                  Regardless of our small land mass and
18     our population base, we are still a province, God bless
19     us, with a proud heritage, and we wish to be recognized
20     as such and not just as a part of a foggy lump known to
21     Toronto as "down east".
22  785                  Much is being made of the potential
23     linkages and here's where I am hearing Nils -- of the
24     potential linkages between television and computers
25     with real audio and video on computer screens.  What


 1     should be remembered is that there are many who are not
 2     now nor will they ever be able to use such technology
 3     because they cannot afford it, and to allocate a large
 4     portion, particularly of scarce funds, to such an
 5     operation, is like deciding to provide steak or lobster
 6     for a limited number as against a good hearty stew for
 7     us essentials.
 8  786                  While asking Parliament to release
 9     more funding for CBC, at the same time I would ask the
10     money handlers at the central offices in the
11     Corporation to use some common sense in the way they
12     spend it and several cases in point.  I hate to be
13     critical of CBC because I think it is so important to
14     us, but I think we should make the point.
15  787                  MR. STEWART:  Excuse me, madam, but
16     you have reached your time limit.  If you could
17     conclude soon.
18  788                  MS HOWATT:  Thank you.  A paragraph.
19  789                  MR. STEWART:  Thank you.
20  790                  MS HOWATT:  Two examples, the
21     Swissair disaster last fall.  Toronto sent down
22     reporters to cover that for national radio and for
23     television.  It wasn't necessary.  There were people in
24     Halifax fully qualified and I am sure as credible
25     across the country as the ones from the west coast are


 1     here.
 2  791                  The second one I disliked very much
 3     was the staged town hall programs, very much
 4     choreographed, very stilted.  There was no spontaneity
 5     from the people who were there and I am sure it must
 6     have cost a great deal to provide transportation and
 7     accommodation.
 8  792                  With the criticisms out of the way, I
 9     shall conclude by saying I consider the programs of CBC
10     as essential services and hope that they will receive
11     the respect and support they deserve.
12  793                  Thank you.
13     --- Applause / Applaudissements
14                                                        1710
15  794                  MR. STEWART:  I now invite Ms Andrea
16     Simpson who is replacing Dr. Herb Dickleson to make a
17     presentation.
19  795                  MS SIMPSON:  Good afternoon.
20  796                  As mentioned in the introduction, I
21     am here on behalf of a member of the legislature from
22     Prince Edward Island.  I would like to open by saying
23     that the CBC must adjust and rededicate itself to the
24     mandate of serving Canadians.  It must continue to be
25     an appealing viewing and listening option in this great


 1     country from coast to coast to coast.  The CBC must
 2     continue to exercise an important role in local and
 3     regional programming.
 4  797                  Unlike in other parts of the country,
 5     CBC television produces the most widely supported
 6     suppertime news show "Compass" with a viewing audience
 7     of close to 80 per cent.  This is a true testimony to
 8     the importance of this programming here on Prince
 9     Edward Island.  There is tremendous potential here to
10     expand local programming for television which is Island
11     based.
12  798                  Features that distinguish CBC Radio
13     One from the private stations is the attention spoken
14     word programming and the innovative approach to this
15     method.
16  799                  Another defining feature is the
17     absence of commercial advertising that we have heard
18     much about today.  These two elements render CBC Radio
19     One refreshing to tune into.
20  800                  The revolution in communications
21     technology translates to one thing for certain, the
22     number and sources of means by which advertising can be
23     packaged arising exponentially.  Cable network channels
24     that strictly advertise are more commonplace.
25  801                  The nature of advertising is also


 1     being revolutionized to mimic trends in the American
 2     cultural industry for the most part.  There is a
 3     considerable segment of the Canadian public which is
 4     looking for ways to escape the barrage of advertising
 5     and consumer-oriented programming that has made its way
 6     into communications media, especially television.
 7  802                  The CBC can continue to distinguish
 8     itself from many other media networks by minimizing its
 9     reliance on advertising revenues.
10  803                  It is clear that given the loss of
11     funding from the federal government in recent years CBC
12     television has had to rely more heavily on its
13     advertising revenues in order to continue to provide
14     the unique blend of made in Canada programming for
15     television.
16  804                  While this trend does not compromise
17     the quality and diversity of programming, it must be
18     carefully monitored and balanced with the overarching
19     vision of the CBC, which is to celebrate and encourage
20     the development of Canadian culture in all its
21     diversity.
22  805                  A funding threshold must be
23     determined in conjunction with front line and technical
24     workers at the CBC to ensure that more than the core
25     mandate is upheld.  What must emerge is an endorsement


 1     of the CBC as a promoter of Canadian culture in the
 2     form of federal funding guarantees, as well as more
 3     versatile funding and regulatory instruments to uphold
 4     the essence of Canadian-made programming in every
 5     province and territory in the country.
 6  806                  If the CBC is expected to draw a
 7     larger and larger portion of its revenues from
 8     commercial advertising, it is difficult to imagine how
 9     it would be able to continue to produce close to 100
10     per cent all-Canadian prime time programming which is
11     more and more diverse.
12  807                  The move to partnering with
13     independent production companies can be positive for
14     both the CBC and the film industry in Canada, as is the
15     example in the case of "Emily of New Moon".  The CBC
16     can and should assume a role in promoting the growth of
17     this industry and its distinctly Canadian focus.
18  808                  One genre of radio and television
19     programming which the CBC fulfils an important function
20     in is public affairs programming.  The depth and
21     sensitivity of CBC public affairs programming is tied
22     to the democratic process in Canada.  The 90-second
23     clip carried by most private networks is a quick fix
24     which does little to advance awareness and sensitivity
25     about the values and experiences of Canadians in


 1     different parts of the country.
 2  809                  The longer, more thoughtful analysis
 3     offered by the CBC sets it apart from other news and
 4     public affairs providers.  It is a quality that takes
 5     on heightened importance in an increasingly complex
 6     world.  And with the trend to media corporatization in
 7     the private sector, the CBC can and should play a
 8     crucial role in ensuring that Canadians continue to
 9     have access to alternative opinions and points of view.
10  810                  Due to reductions in technical staff
11     and funding at the Charlottetown station, this
12     programming has been virtually discontinued.  I speak
13     of provincial affairs programming.
14  811                  Each political caucus is now expected
15     to hire its own technical expertise to produce a
16     30-minute tape whose quality is worthy of being aired
17     on the CBC.  This new requirement is highly prohibitive
18     to the democratic process on Prince Edward Island. 
19     Coming from the smallest caucus office, we only have
20     one member in the legislature, it makes it extremely
21     prohibitive.
22  812                  The CBC should continue to play a
23     role and facilitate in communication between elected
24     members of political office and the public they serve
25     by restoring base funding to this important function.


 1  813                  A stable and higher level of funding
 2     must be restored.  Current levels are well below the
 3     original federal budget threshold of 1.5 per cent.  The
 4     restoration of funding to the CBC to its '95 and '96
 5     level is  necessary to guarantee that the breadth and
 6     quality of programming that Canadians have come to
 7     cherish is here for the long haul.
 8  814                  The $88 million allocated in the 1999
 9     federal budget to employee departure packages is a
10     practice that must be reversed.  If the CBC is to
11     survive as a national producer of cultural programming,
12     it is inconceivable that the continuity and quality of
13     programming not be thwarted by the immense blow to
14     morale dealt by this type of policy.
15  815                  Funding levels must also be restored
16     to ensure that the international shortwave service of
17     CBC radio continues to be an important cultural link to
18     the world.  This programming enjoys worldwide acclaim
19     and is a tremendous exporter of Canadian culture.  We
20     cannot afford to lose it.
21  816                  The need for locally produced
22     television programming is more crucial than ever.  The
23     need for radio with a cultural sensitivity and public
24     focus is equally pressing in light of the global
25     communications trends.  Canadian culture and identity


 1     cannot be overstated.  The means to reinvent and uphold
 2     the place of the CBC as purveyor of made in Canada
 3     radio and television must be secured and rendered more
 4     flexible.
 5  817                  Thank you very much.
 6     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 7                                                        1720
 8  818                  MR. STEWART:  I now invite Ms Laurie
 9     Brinklow to make a presentation.
11  819                  MS BRINKLOW:  I grew up on the west
12     coast in several small cities and towns of British
13     Columbia; Prince Rupert, Fort St. John, Prince George,
14     Skookumchuck in the Kootenays and in Port Alberni,
15     Nanaimo and Victoria on Vancouver Island.
16  820                  As the daughter of a construction
17     worker we moved a lot.  We lived a couple of summers
18     building the TransCanada Pipeline through Saskatchewan
19     and Manitoba and spent a year and a half in northern
20     Ontario, from Huntsville and North Bay through to
21     Kapuskasing, Hearst and Geraldton.
22  821                  Being the daughter of a country and
23     western music fan, we didn't listen to CBC.  I probably
24     didn't even hear of it until I was in high school in
25     Prince George, where I had a vague knowledge of it


 1     being one of those boring stations where people talked
 2     all the time.
 3  822                  In the late 1970s, in one of my
 4     summer jobs, between terms at the University of
 5     Victoria, I heard how "Morningside" was the salvation
 6     of my boss who had just come off maternity leave. 
 7     However, I and my friends still listened to CKDU.
 8  823                  Television was different.  CBC meant
 9     Tommy Hunter and "Hockey Night in Canada", "The Don
10     Messer Show", "Front Page Challenge" and Walt Disney. 
11     It didn't have any good Saturday morning cartoons.
12  824                  It wasn't until I moved to Whitehorse
13     that I was formally introduced to CBC radio,
14     "Morningside" with Don Harron, "As It Happens" with
15     Barbara Frum, news coverage from around the world
16     brought to me in what I thought to be one of the last
17     outposts of Canada until I heard about Old Crow.
18  825                  At the same time, local programming
19     was vital to my fitting in.  I could learn about the
20     place I was living in become connected to the culture I
21     had chosen.  It was a lifeline that went both ways.
22  826                  When the bottom fell out of the
23     economy in 1982 I left the north, and in June of 1983,
24     quite by accident, ended up in Prince Edward Island
25     looking for work.  Indeed, it is because of the CBC 


 1     that I am still here.  My partner at the time was a
 2     journalist and was told by Martin Durell, then
 3     Executive Producer of CBC Radio, that he was eminently
 4     qualified to work at CBC if something came up and, in
 5     the meantime, he could always freelance.  He bought
 6     himself a tape recorder and did just that.
 7  827                  I introduced myself to the publisher
 8     of Ragweed Press and began my career as a book
 9     publisher.  Sixteen years later I'm publishing
10     co-ordinator at the Institute of Island Studies at the
11     University of Prince Edward Island.  The Acorn Press,
12     which publishes book about Prince Edward Island, is
13     what I do after hours and on weekends.
14  828                  The reason I tell you about myself is
15     because I am one of those very fortunate people who
16     have actually seen and experienced life in many
17     different parts of this vast country.  Each region
18     knows what it is like to feel isolated and peripheral
19     to the centre, but each region has a culture that is
20     unique and I know how fiercely a people will strive to
21     protect it, and that sense of identity that comes with
22     being on the periphery, if it is threatened.
23  829                  Certainly, other countries have a
24     similar dichotomy between rural and urban societies,
25     but in Canada it's part of our DNA, a result of


 1     geography and history, and we have learned to live with
 2     it, for the most part harmoniously.
 3  830                  In the past, just like the CPR, the
 4     CBC has played a significant role in holding it all
 5     together, by allowing Canadians to communicate with one
 6     another from one end of the country to the other on a
 7     somewhat equal footing.
 8  831                  I fear, however, that there are plans
 9     afoot by the powers that be in what we somewhat
10     disparagingly call Upper Canada, or as Charlie
11     Farquharson calls it, "Uppity Canada" to systematically
12     dismantle it.
13  832                  One of the things I found important
14     in the book publishing industry is the very great need
15     to publish books about and from the culture in which
16     you find yourself, reflecting one's culture back to
17     one's self in tangible forms, such as books, music,
18     art, newspapers and magazines, a crucial part of making
19     a people believe that what they are doing is
20     worthwhile, that what they have to say is worth
21     listening to.
22  833                  In 1985 Ragweed published a grade six
23     social studies textbook about Prince Edward Island that
24     is still used in schools today.  The children's
25     reactions to having their Island in a hardcover book


 1     was incredible.  They could see the guy in the Post
 2     Office whose picture was in the book and think that
 3     maybe where they live isn't such a hick town after all. 
 4     If it's in a book, maybe Prince Edward Island is
 5     important after all.
 6  834                  How different from my experience
 7     where my textbooks were imported from the U.S. or the
 8     U.K. and where I worried that my own little part of the
 9     world might not even get mentioned.
10  835                  It's the same with radio and TV. 
11     Hearing about something you are doing on the radio or
12     seeing your neighbour on TV reflects your culture back
13     to you and that is empowering.
14  836                  Given the devastating cutbacks to
15     local and regional programming in recent years, I fear
16     that our local CBC radio and TV are under seige. 
17     Rumours abound that the station will become downgraded
18     to a bureau, losing its ability to program and maintain
19     a staff.  If that were to happen, we on Prince Edward
20     Island would lose one of the most important mediums we
21     have for reflecting our culture back to us.
22  837                  Ratings consistently show that our
23     local programming has a significant share of the market
24     audience.  I have heard the figure of 80 per cent for
25     our supper hour TV show "Compass".  As a book publisher


 1     I know that if a story about a book I am publishing or
 2     an event I am organizing is mentioned, book sales and
 3     audiences increase substantially.
 4  838                  If one of our politicians is
 5     interviewed on a controversial issue everyone is
 6     talking about it at work the next day.  Everyone
 7     watches it.
 8  839                  And, similarly, most people listen to
 9     "Island Morning".  Since the strike began a few weeks
10     ago I have heard so many people echo the same thing,
11     "We're lost without our morning show.  The fill-in show
12     from Halifax just doesn't cut it."
13  840                  Our "Main Street" program used to
14     have as its focus local news and culture.  It was a
15     wonderful show with Sheryl MacKay and before Nils was
16     co-host with her before she was on her own.  A couple
17     of years ago directors in Toronto began to change
18     things, centralizing power by dictating what was to be
19     on the air in that particular time slot.  They stated
20     how many stories from away and even which ones had to
21     be played on the local show.  There were to be more of
22     those stories than there were local ones.  There was no
23     rationale for it.  It didn't change staffing.  It
24     didn't change the budget.
25  841                  Sheryl left the show and I suppose


 1     "Main Street's" loss is "Compass'" gain, but with all
 2     due respect and love to Matt Rainnie and Andy Morrow
 3     who did the best with what they have been given to work
 4     with, I think "Main Street" has lost its soul.
 5  842                  Relevance to Prince Edward Island has
 6     dwindled to almost nothing.  Those stories from away
 7     are repeated on other national and regional programs
 8     until we can't stand it any more.  "Main Street" has
 9     been gutted and I fear that that's what is planned for
10     the rest of the local programming.
11  843                  Why should Canada's public
12     broadcaster not serve the wishes of all Canadians?  We
13     in Prince Edward Island pay taxes just like they do in
14     Upper Canada.  I have even heard the sentiment
15     expressed that it should be a constitutional right that
16     each province have a local CBC station and thus control
17     over their own local programming.
18  844                  Why should we not have control over
19     something upon which we have come to depend for our
20     cultural survival?  Why cannot the CBC continue to
21     offer national broadcasts in some time slots, bringing
22     us news and glimpses of the cultures of other regions
23     of Canada and let the local stations fill their time in
24     ways that best serve their markets?
25  845                  My own vision for CBC radio would be


 1     to have a local station in each part of the country
 2     that is culturally distinct from one another, again to
 3     reflect the culture in which it is situated.  Each of
 4     those cultures is part of the mosaic that is Canada and
 5     each is significant enough to be seen and heard.  The
 6     morning, noon and afternoon shows would be free to
 7     program in a way that best suited their audiences.  If
 8     they could do local programming on weekends, so much
 9     the better.
10  846                  There would continue to be various
11     time slots of national programming that would draw
12     their inspiration and material from those local
13     stations, not the other way around, and in that way the
14     rest of Canada would learn about and appreciate the
15     parts that make up the whole.
16  847                  My CBC would be thought provoking and
17     dynamic.  It would celebrate our local and regional
18     differences and not mire itself in the mediocrity of
19     sameness.  News coverage would be leading edge,
20     thorough and fair.  It would be arm's length, free of
21     political interference and free to challenge government
22     and big business.  It would not back down to the Prime
23     Minister's Office and put one of its most highly
24     respected reporters on leave because he dared to dig
25     too deep.  It would make sure that the environment,


 1     human rights, social issues, our Canadian culture were
 2     protected.  It would not be sensationalistic.  It would
 3     have a human face.  My CBC would have integrity and it
 4     would serve as Canada's conscience.
 5  848                  I believe that the stronger the
 6     individual parts the stronger the whole.  This works
 7     for personal relationships and it works for Canada.  I
 8     believe that the more we can focus on strengthening the
 9     parts, the better off we will be and that means giving
10     us back our cultures.  Let's not let them be lost to
11     those centralist attitudes which dictate that
12     everything be the same.
13  849                  CBC has a role to play in keeping
14     this country a dynamic tapestry of different cultural
15     experiences, part of what makes it such a wonderful
16     place to life.
17  850                  MR. STEWART:  Excuse me, you have
18     reached your time limit.
19  851                  MS BRINKLOW:  My daughters still flip
20     the dial to Majic 93 when they get in the car.  They
21     complain about radio where all they do is talk or play
22     classical music, but at least they know what CBC is.  I
23     just hope it's still there when they get old enough to
24     appreciate it.
25     --- Applause / Applaudissements


 1                                                        1730
 2  852                  MR. STEWART:  The next person on the
 3     list has indicated that she will not be making a
 4     presentation and that's Ms Ruth Brewer.
 5  853                  So, I now call upon Mr. David
 6     Doughton to make his presentation.
 8  854                  M. DAVID DOUGHTON:  Merci pour
 9     l'opportunité de faire une présentation.
10  855                  As it happens, we are running late,
11     so my phone will probably ring with the babysitter
12     wondering where I am, so I apologize for that if it
13     happens.  I will keep it under three minutes though,
14     which should be welcomed.
15  856                  I work with something called the
16     Regional Co-operative Development Centre, which is an
17     economic development arm of the co-op and credit union
18     system.  I also Chair the Health Information Resource
19     Centre on Prince Edward Island and I am a former
20     President of the P.E.I. Writer's Guild.
21  857                  Like Mr. MacCabe who spoke earlier, I
22     am also a husband, father and a Christian, but you
23     probably don't need to know that.
24  858                  I would like to read briefly a
25     passage from a letter I wrote to Minister Copps and


 1     just add a few comments.  So:
 2                            "CBC radio is a national
 3                            resource of inestimable value. 
 4                            It's a key component of
 5                            community capacity building in
 6                            Atlantic Canada, as well as
 7                            serving to promote cohesion and
 8                            mutual understanding among
 9                            communities of interest across
10                            the country, from the arts and
11                            cultural sectors to ethnic and
12                            linguistic minorities.  The
13                            current disarray in programming
14                            is having a deleterious effect
15                            on community life and is already
16                            eroding the awareness of local
17                            arts and culture.  Please do
18                            everything in your power to
19                            bring about a positive
20                            resolution to the labour dispute
21                            and to strengthen the CBC
22                            network."  (As read)
23  859                  Personally, I am more of a listener
24     than a viewer, mostly because of the intrusive and
25     unwelcome presence of commercial advertising on CBC


 1     television.  I encourage you to advocate for
 2     commercial-free television service and to exhort your
 3     Cabinet colleagues to endorse support for a Canadian
 4     Broadcasting Corporation that produces programming
 5     which we can be proud of and which provides a refuge
 6     from sales pitches.
 7  860                  My comment is that I realize it may
 8     be unrealistic to look to reduce ad revenue in a
 9     financial crisis, but I would echo the commercial
10     grouping concerns of earlier speakers.  There has to be
11     a better way of getting the ad revenue than peppering
12     everything with ads.
13  861                  I am one of a group of fortunate
14     people who have experienced commercial-free TV and it's
15     better and there is no comparison.
16  862                  I spoke of CBC radio.  Radio-Canada
17     is also an exceptional resource.  They do arguably the
18     best hockey coverage anywhere, as well as showcasing
19     francophone culture.
20  863                  The alternatives to CBC in this new
21     multi-channel universe are generally either
22     sensationalistic or shallow.  I find that what rushes
23     in to fill the vacuum when you eliminate things that
24     are profound an insightful is not other profound and
25     insightful things.  It tends to be sensationalistic and


 1     shallow things.
 2  864                  Marketplace economics don't work in
 3     quality broadcasting, any more than they work with
 4     schools.  I think you would find that if you asked
 5     children to choose between going to school and going to
 6     the mall or video arcade, the movie theatre and let the
 7     marketplace take its course, that there would be very
 8     few people in school and a lot of people in the video
 9     arcades, the malls and the movie theatres.  The quality
10     of education would nosedive and there would be many
11     adverse implications for Canada.
12  865                  So, from my perspective I think that
13     the CBC is a major component of community capacity
14     building across Canada and it's something that
15     everybody seems to focus on in other areas, like Human
16     Resources Development Canada, but they don't realize
17     the value of it in broadcasting and I think will regret
18     it deeply when it is gone, if it goes, which of course
19     it won't because we will support it.
20  866                  Last but not least, a number of
21     people have spoken about the need for all-Canadian
22     programming.  Personally, I don't want all-Canadian
23     programming.  I find the CBC needs to select things
24     from around the world.  I find when I am up late enough
25     to listen to the all-night stuff from other countries I


 1     find it fascinating.  So, yes, by all means primarily
 2     Canadian, but there is more to the CBC than just
 3     Canadian content.  It's the way that they interpret
 4     things from the rest of the world to Canadians.
 5  867                  Thank you.  Merci.
 6     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 7  868                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
 8     Merci.
 9                                                        1735
10  869                  MR. STEWART:  The final presenter for
11     this session is Mr. Ian Dennison.
13  870                  MR. DENNISON:  Thank you.
14  871                  Madam Bertrand, Mr. Langford, fellow
15     citizens, thank you for coming here to listen to us. 
16     It's important to have this opportunity, as others have
17     stated.
18  872                  I wonder if I might just ask what
19     other members of the media are present today.  Is The
20     Guardian here?  Is CFCY here?  Is Eastern Graphic here? 
21     I rest my case.  We need the CBC.
22  873                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  They may not
23     be here as much to cover the story as for other
24     motives.  Anyway --
25  874                  MR. DENNISON:  But without the CBC,


 1     you know, there are a lot of things that simply don't
 2     get covered, and sometimes even when they are covered
 3     by the other media they seem to be covered most fairly
 4     by the CBC.
 5  875                  I had the opportunity, and I was
 6     grateful for it, to participate in a morning phone-in
 7     show a couple of weeks ago.  I found that the CBC's
 8     coverage of it and the balance that they gave to that
 9     was quite significant.  I happened to be sort of a
10     guest expert, if you will, on that program.
11  876                  I found it instructive too to watch
12     how that programming happens and to watch the
13     technician in his booth, and I know that the
14     technicians are on strike, but these people deserve a
15     lot of credit for the kind of job that they do because
16     this man he needed two heads and six hands.  It was a
17     masterful job.  I think it is important to support them
18     in that.
19  877                  I am a self-confessed radio addict. 
20     I speak mainly on behalf of the radio services, what we
21     used to call the stereo network, which is now called
22     Radio Two and Radio One, the English network.  You will
23     find that sometimes I roll into my driveway in my truck
24     in my little village and people in my village must
25     wonder, it's a real curiosity, but that man just sits


 1     there in his truck.  Why isn't he getting out?
 2  878                  Well, there is some important
 3     programming and he just doesn't want to leave his
 4     truck.  It's CBC radio and he can't get away from it. 
 5     And maybe that's a common experience.
 6  879                  I hear they do this in Ottawa too,
 7     the politicians and the number crunchers sit out in
 8     their vehicles and they don't enter their place of work
 9     because they are busy listening.
10  880                  There are also other important things
11     that CBC gives to us as citizens.  For me, my
12     continuing education is largely from CBC.  I get
13     information from CBC that is tremendous and in depth
14     and of tremendous value from programs like "Ideas",
15     "Quirks and Quarks", even "Basic Black" for crying out
16     loud.
17  881                  I would pay for CBC in other ways
18     even than my tax dollar if I had to.  I feel that I am
19     paying for it in my tax dollar, but if the government
20     thinks differently I would even subscribe to it and
21     that's one notion that hasn't been mentioned, heaven
22     forbid.  Maybe people don't want to think about that. 
23     Maybe they think that we are paying enough in our taxes
24     for services like the CBC, but I would be willing to
25     pay for it even outside of my taxes, the service is


 1     that important to me.  Maybe that has to be considered
 2     if the tax base will not support it.
 3  882                  Basically, in response to the four
 4     questions that were offered to us, I like the CBC as it
 5     is or, maybe more to the point, as it was three or four
 6     years ago.  I don't think I could add a lot to what the
 7     service was and I believe that funding should be
 8     restored to it.
 9  883                  I like the imagination of radio and
10     that is something that television cannot give to us.  I
11     think only CBC radio can appeal to the imagination in
12     the way that it does.  Commercial radio doesn't seem to
13     have the capability to do it and television won't do it
14     for us.
15  884                  I already confessed to you that I am
16     a radio addict and that's one of the reason that I
17     don't watch television because of the addictive nature
18     of my personality and I believe a lot of citizens share
19     this.  When I sit down in front of the TV it's not me. 
20     Whereas with radio I can do other things.  Thank heaven
21     I can still drive while I'm listening to the radio. 
22     You couldn't do that in front of the TV.
23  885                  I find the TV is mind numbing, but
24     radio is exciting.  It's fascinating.  It's
25     interesting.  It speaks to me and I get a chance to


 1     speak back to it.
 2  886                  Yes, CBC should be different from
 3     other media.  It is important to maintain that
 4     difference.
 5  887                  And that is about all I have to say,
 6     except for maybe one other small reference.  The
 7     gentleman who sat beside me, Kip Smith, made a
 8     reference to an obscure happening in this province.  He
 9     talked about resources coverage and he made specific
10     reference to a current conflict that is happening in
11     our forest industries.  It's the Forest Contractor Code
12     of Practice and I happen to be front and centre in that
13     debate, being the Chair of the Forest Partnership
14     Council.  So, I have been able to experience firsthand
15     what happens when media coverage is unfavourable,
16     slanted, biased or just twisted.
17  888                  I find the CBC radio in particular,
18     and maybe television as well, has given the most
19     balanced coverage to this debate or dialogue of any of
20     the media.  We desperately, desperately need that in
21     this province, in this country and I doubt that we
22     could get it anywhere else than from the CBC, which is,
23     after all, ours.
24  889                  Thank you.
25     --- Applause / Applaudissements


 1  890                  MR. STEWART:  Madame la Présidente,
 2     that concludes the list of presenters.  At this stage I
 3     am not sure if it is your intention to invite the CBC
 4     to --
 5                                                        1740
 6  891                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
 7     Yes.
 9  892                  MS MITTON:  We will make this brief.
10  893                  Thank you.  My name is Susan Mitton
11     and I am the Regional Director of Radio and I will
12     speak on behalf of all my colleagues, if that's more
13     efficient.
14  894                  We would like to thank the Commission
15     for this incredible opportunity.  This is the final
16     stop of three centres in the maritimes, Sydney, Moncton
17     and Charlottetown.  I think it has given everyone an
18     incredible sense of the heartfelt appreciation for the
19     CBC that most maritimers have.  I will get to a little
20     bit of that in a moment.
21  895                  I wanted to say that over the past
22     three days we have had the privilege of hearing from
23     100 people here in the maritimes at least, people who
24     clearly listen to hours and hours of radio and watch
25     television with great intensity as well.  In fact, it


 1     is you people who are the experts, so you can
 2     appreciate for us that this has been a rare opportunity
 3     to sit back and listen to 20 hours of your views and
 4     thoughts and criticisms and reflections on CBC as a
 5     national service.
 6  896                  It is up to you, obviously, to
 7     interpret what you have heard, but from what I have
 8     heard and my colleagues have heard we sense a
 9     resounding support for local programming everywhere we
10     have been to, and a sense that it is a critical service
11     in holding together communities and reflecting
12     communities and a dialogue place for communities.
13  897                  There is also great respect for some
14     regional programming and certainly for a national
15     system that connects the whole country.  I think that
16     that's been heard loud and clear.
17  898                  We have heard specific concerns.  It
18     is not our role really here to go through every one. 
19     What we intend to do is we have made notes and we will
20     try and get back to some of you who have raised
21     concerns that we would be better to answer off line and
22     we will be also submitting information to the
23     Commission on certain questions that were raised.
24  899                  I can tell you, sir, it is still
25     seven cents a day.  It is actually down from ten. 


 1     That's a quickie and the radio guide I think we can
 2     work with, but things like that we will try and get
 3     back to you on.
 4  900                  I would just like to conclude by
 5     saying that to me, as a maritimer, it is not normal for
 6     us to crow.  And you have been in a region where, in
 7     fact, few people have mentioned ratings.  They won't be
 8     what you remember.  You will probably, as I do,
 9     remember the personal stories, the earthworm CD, the
10     lady who had the bed and breakfast with all her guests
11     sitting around talking about something they had all
12     heard on CBC radio.  Those personal stories will stay
13     as what the CBC means to individuals and how it has
14     touched their lives.
15  901                  But I do want to take this
16     opportunity to put on the record that the maritime
17     region enjoys ratings in both television and radio
18     that, compared to none in the country, our radio shares
19     are double the national average in this region and our
20     television -- Charlottetown's share of 85.  Halifax has
21     a very strong share and the New Brunswick station is
22     growing all the time.
23  902                  But it goes to say that it's not an
24     elite group of maritimers that care about the CBC.  It
25     is very widespread.  We have enjoyed incredible support


 1     over the years for both services and for the French
 2     service which is seen as critical to the Acadians in
 3     this region and to francophones outside of Quebec.
 4  903                  So, I would sense that you have
 5     picked that up as well, and you can appreciate how --
 6     sometimes our jobs seem difficult, but when you have
 7     appreciation and a sense of ownership by the public,
 8     like we have for the work we do, it's just a very
 9     satisfying role that we play.
10  904                  Thank you very much.
11     --- Applause / Applaudissements
12  905                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
13     Thank you very much, all.  I want to really thank all
14     of you intervenors who have taken the afternoon in a
15     very cold room, although a very beautiful room and a
16     very meaningful room, to have really brought your
17     warmth and passion about the CBC.  It is true, you
18     really give sense to the meaning of public broadcaster.
19  906                  Thank you very much for your
20     participation.
21  907                  We will be back at six o'clock for
22     the evening session.  Thank you.
23     --- Recess at 1745 / Suspension à 1745
24     --- Upon resuming at 1814 Reprise à 1814
25  908                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 


 1     Good evening everyone.  Welcome to this regional and
 2     public consultation of the CRTC.  My name is Françoise
 3     Bertrand and I am the CRTC Chairperson.  I would like
 4     to introduce my fellow Commissioner, Stuart Langford,
 5     on my left here.
 6  909                  We are here to gather your views and
 7     comments on CBC radio and television.  In your opinion
 8     how should the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation fulfil
 9     its role in the coming years.
10  910                  The CBC is a national public service,
11     broadcasting in English, as well as in French.  It
12     plays an important role in the Canadian broadcasting
13     system.
14  911                  Today many elements are constantly
15     being added to the broadcasting system, as new
16     technologies multiply, converge, open up new horizons
17     and increasingly offer new services.  In this context,
18     we want to know what are your needs and expectations as
19     viewers and listeners of the CBC.
20  912                  Given that, it is very important that
21     the Commission hears what you have to say.  We must not
22     lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public
23     organization that serves Canadians.  It is in this
24     capacity we are responsible to you.
25  913                  This is why my fellow Commissioners


 1     and myself find it vital to come and meet with you to
 2     discuss these issues and why we are holding this series
 3     of regional consultations from one end of the country
 4     to the other in 11 Canadian cities from March 9 to 18.
 5  914                  These consultations are designed to
 6     give you a chance on the eve of a new millennium to
 7     express your opinion on the CBC's role, the programming
 8     it offer and the direction it should take at the
 9     national, regional and local levels.
10  915                  Through these consultations we hope
11     to enter into an open dialogue with you and to hear
12     your concerns.  Your comments will form part of the
13     public record, which will be added to the record of the
14     public hearing of the CBC that will begin in Hull on
15     May 25.
16  916                  At this upcoming hearing the
17     Commission will examine the CBC's application for the
18     renewal of its licences, including radio, television
19     and its specialty services, Newsworld and Réseau de
20     l'information.  You can also take part in that public
21     hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 
22     If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the
23     specific licence renewals being examined when you file
24     your comments.
25  917                  Now, I would like to come back to


 1     today's consultations.  Please allow me to introduce
 2     the CRTC staff who will be assisting us today. 
 3     Alastair Stewart, our legal counsel, and Brien Rodger,
 4     the Director of our Halifax Regional Office.  Please
 5     feel free to call on them with any questions you might
 6     have about the process today or any other matter.
 7  918                  So that you will have the opportunity
 8     to speak, we ask that you please limit your
 9     presentation to 10 minutes.  As these consultations are
10     a forum designed especially for you and we want to
11     listen to as many participants as possible, we will not
12     ask any questions unless we need clarification.
13  919                  At the end of this session,
14     representatives from the local CBC stations will have a
15     chance to offer their views, as they are naturally very
16     interested by the issues we are discussing here today.
17  920                  Before we start, I would ask our
18     legal counsel to go over some of the housekeeping
19     matters regarding the conduct of this consultation
20     before he introduces the first intervenor.
21  921                  M. STEWART:  Merci, Madame la
22     Présidente.
23  922                  I will invite each presenter to make
24     his or her presentation in accordance with the order
25     established for this proceeding.  I understand that


 1     order is on a piece of paper that is available at the
 2     entrance to this hall.
 3  923                  I would ask you when making your
 4     presentation to speak into the microphone and before
 5     speaking if you could press the white button so that
 6     you can activate the system.  That way your comments
 7     will be transcribed for the public record.
 8  924                  At the conclusion of your
 9     presentation if you would be good enough to again press
10     that little button to turn the system off to avoid the
11     echo phenomenon that otherwise occurs.
12  925                  For those who wish to avail
13     themselves of the simultaneous translation,
14     simultaneous translation is available and the necessary
15     equipment, the headset, is available from the people
16     who are located near where all that technical gear is
17     situated.
18  926                  I would also strongly appeal to you
19     to limit your presentations to 10 minutes.  We have got
20     many speakers here and for the interests of everyone if
21     you could do that it would be most appreciated.
22                                                        1820
23  927                  With your permission, Madame la
24     Présidente, I would like to call upon the first speaker
25     and invite the Hon. Patrick Binns, Premier of Prince


 1     Edward Island, to make his presentation.
 3  928                  PREMIER BINNS:  Madame Bertrand,
 4     Mr. Langford, ladies and gentlemen, may I first welcome
 5     you to Prince Edward Island, Canada's smallest province
 6     and the birthplace of Canada's greatest achievement,
 7     Confederation.
 8  929                  We are grateful indeed that the CRTC
 9     has taken the time to not only seek public input on
10     this matter, but also to send you as Commissioners
11     across Canada to receive that input directly.
12  930                  I know that you will leave this
13     province with a far greater appreciation of the role of
14     the CBC in the daily lives of Islanders and theirs as
15     Canadians than you came with.
16  931                  The people of P.E.I. value the CBC
17     highly.  For many years the CBC has performed a great
18     service to the Island and to Canada and, despite
19     greatly diminished resources, the Corporation continues
20     to play an important role in national unity.
21  932                  On the Island, the CBC provides our
22     only locally produced TV news program and our only
23     local daily current affairs radio shows.  That is why
24     it is so important to us to maintain the level of local
25     programming that we have.


 1  933                  I am sure that you are hearing from
 2     many Canadians who are concerned about the erosion of
 3     local and regional programming over the past several
 4     years.  We are also concerned, probably even more so
 5     than people in larger urban centres.
 6  934                  A labour dispute causes many
 7     hardships, but the current technicians' strike has
 8     given us an even greater appreciation of the services
 9     provided by the CBC.  Since the strike began we have
10     lost most of our local CBC news and current affairs
11     coverage and this temporary loss paints a vivid and
12     disturbing picture of what the future might look like
13     if local programming continued to decline.
14  935                  The questions you pose in the news
15     release announcing these hearings speak to the very
16     heart of the existence and operation of the CBC.  I
17     would respond first by stating simply that there is a
18     special role for the CBC -- that the CBC should play. 
19     That role should be different from that of other
20     private broadcasters.  I don't think the CBC is
21     fulfilling its mandate as well as it used to, and I
22     worry that services it provides, especially at the
23     local and regional level, will deteriorate even
24     further.  In the course of this presentation I will
25     attempt to expand on those statements.


 1  936                  I believe that the role of the CBC
 2     should be to reflect Canadians to themselves, to
 3     introduce Canadians to one another and to help
 4     strengthen the bonds of community.  To do so, the CBC
 5     must recognize that this is a diverse country.  That
 6     sounds like an obvious statement, but it is a statement
 7     worth reiterating.  We are different from the rest of
 8     Canada, especially the part that lies outside the
 9     Atlantic region.
10  937                  In spite of the signs of urbanization
11     that you see here, we are still basically a rural
12     society.  We are close knit, somewhat laid back,
13     intensely interested in our families, our neighbours,
14     our land and sea and our shared history.  We are quick
15     to help each other in times of trouble.  We have a rich
16     culture which has been preserved and nourished for
17     generations, partly perhaps as a result of being an
18     island.
19  938                  We have inherited an especially
20     vibrant tradition of music and storytelling.  We have
21     preoccupations that may seem somewhat odd to people in
22     other places.  For instance, you might be surprised to
23     learn what happened when one of the private radio
24     stations decided to drop a longstanding feature, the
25     death announcements.  There was such an outcry from


 1     Islanders that the station backed down.  Well, we care
 2     about our neighbours here and when they pass on we like
 3     to know about it.
 4  939                  Of course we care about other
 5     Canadians too and we share many of their values and
 6     interests, but I maintain that it is impossible to
 7     reflect the lives of maritimers from a broadcast studio
 8     in Toronto.  The CBC must ensure that local stations,
 9     such as the one in Charlottetown, are given the freedom
10     and the resources to provide programs that respond to
11     the needs and interests of local communities.  I
12     believe that this is the responsibility of a public
13     broadcaster.  In fact, it is one of the main
14     characteristics that sets the CBC apart from other
15     broadcasters.
16  940                  We are interested in the outside
17     world.  However, obtaining information about the
18     outside world is the least of our problems.  There are
19     literally dozens of sources we can turn to for instant
20     information about significant national and world
21     events; the multi-channel television universe, the
22     Internet, the national and international publications
23     that flood our magazine racks and, of course, the CBC
24     itself.
25  941                  What we need are sources to which we


 1     can turn for in-depth coverage of what is happening in
 2     our own communities.  The CBC must have a mandate that
 3     goes beyond paying its own way.  Its role should be to
 4     produce a high-quality product, not to produce mass
 5     audiences that can be sold to advertisers.  The CBC,
 6     therefore, must have enough financial support from the
 7     federal government to ensure that it can meet its
 8     mandate.
 9  942                  Although the CBC has served the
10     Island well in the past, budget cuts in the past few
11     years have placed severe constraints on local radio and
12     television programming, but it is my impression that
13     this issue goes deeper than fiscal restraints.  The CBC
14     also must have the will to encourage strong, local
15     programming, and not actively discourage it as appears
16     to be the case in some instances.
17  943                  One of the great success stories of
18     the CBC in this province is that of "Compass", the
19     supper hour TV show.  It has a tremendously loyal
20     following, as I am sure you have heard today, partly
21     because it is the only game in town, but also because
22     it does an excellent job and I know the ratings are in
23     the vicinity of 70 to 80 per cent.
24  944                  Periodically, columnists in the
25     national print media argue against spending money on


 1     CBC supper hour shows, since they draw such sparse
 2     audiences in many larger urban centres.  That may make
 3     sense in some places, but not here.  If CBC television
 4     were shut down in Charlottetown or demoted to the
 5     status of a bureau, we would be left with very little
 6     television coverage.  It is hard to imagine a private
 7     broadcaster moving in to adequately fill this gap.
 8  945                  We have already suffered considerable
 9     losses in our local television programming.  A few
10     years ago Islanders had a local CBC supper hour news
11     program, a local late night report, a mid-day news and
12     interview show, a weekly resources show and a weekly
13     program showcasing Island music.
14  946                  The late night report is now a
15     regional show from Halifax.  The other shows have
16     disappeared, not because they were unpopular, but
17     because of budget cuts and decisions made somewhere
18     else.  Today the supper hour show is the only local TV
19     program left.  Even "Compass" is not strictly a local
20     show, as it carries national and international items as
21     well.  However, with a staff of 18 it maintains a high
22     degree of credibility among the viewing public and it
23     sets a high standard of news reporting among the local
24     media.
25  947                  Our other source of local and


 1     regional TV news is the late night newscast from
 2     Halifax.  The scheduling of this show is a personal
 3     irritant to me.  While there isn't a great deal of
 4     Island news on the show, it still provides some insight
 5     into what is happening in the province and in the
 6     region.  It's especially useful to watch it if you have
 7     missed the supper hour news.  At one time the regional
 8     show ran at 11:00 p.m., right after the CBC national
 9     news.  Then the CBC decided to treat us to another half
10     hour rebroadcast of the national news.  That means that
11     you have to sit through an exact repeat of the national
12     news before you can get to the regional news at 11:30. 
13     This makes absolutely no sense to me and, as I have
14     said to others in the CBC, how stupid do you think we
15     are?
16  948                  The correspondence I have had with
17     the CBC has not improved my understanding of the
18     situation.  If the CBC needs to rebroadcast the
19     national news, why not do it after the regional news,
20     then we maritimers can perhaps get to bed at a decent
21     hour and, as I mentioned earlier, as a rural society we
22     have lots of farmers and fishermen and small business
23     people that like to get up early in the day and they
24     like to see the news at night.  This would give us an
25     opportunity to do both.


 1  949                  In any case, I am not sure that the
 2     national news deserves to be broadcast twice in one
 3     evening.  When I turn to the CBC national news, I would
 4     like to hear and see what is happening in communities
 5     across Canada.  I am more likely to hear a CBC reporter
 6     in Washington telling more than I want to know about
 7     the personal life of the U.S. President.  If that is
 8     the sort of information some viewers want, I would
 9     argue that there are many other sources to which they
10     can turn.
11  950                  The CBC has many reporters and
12     editors across Canada who are busy every day producing
13     stories and events and issues in the communities they
14     serve directly.  It should be possible to glean from
15     the local reports enough interesting material to give
16     us a snapshot of life in Canada on any given day.  If
17     our national public broadcaster does not provide such a
18     service, who will?  How do we learn about and
19     appreciate the many significant events taking place in
20     this country?  How do we build and strengthen our
21     national identity?
22  951                  I applaud the CBC's announced
23     intention to increase Canadian content in prime time
24     television with this qualification.  Variety programs
25     broadcast on CBC television should be subject to the


 1     same high standards as current affairs shows are.
 2  952                  I am grateful to the CBC for
 3     supporting shows such as "The Road to Avonlea" and
 4     "Emily of New Moon" which, of course, was shot on the
 5     Island.  The CBC should not be broadcasting dramas or
 6     so-called comedies just because they are Canadian made. 
 7     If they are cheap, vulgar, mindless or just plain
 8     offensive to many adult viewers, they should be
 9     replaced by variety shows of which we can be proud. 
10     Surely there are enough talented artists across this
11     country to produce such shows.
12  953                  My criticism about the national news
13     and current affairs coverage do not apply to radio.  In
14     fact, our national coverage of news and current affairs
15     on radio has played an enormous role in strengthening
16     our ties from coast to coast.  No doubt this is one
17     reason that CBC radio has for many years enjoyed such a
18     loyal following.  Despite the millions of dollars in
19     budget cuts, the national radio service manages to
20     continue to entertain and enlighten us.
21  954                  Unfortunately, local programming is
22     suffering, despite the best efforts of a greatly
23     reduced local staff.  A number of years ago we lost our
24     local noon show and fisherman's broadcast.  That left
25     us with five hours of locally produced current affairs


 1     shows, three in the morning and two in the afternoon. 
 2     Now we appear to be losing local content on those time
 3     slots.  For example, the show known as "Main Street",
 4     broadcast from 4:00 to 6:00 in the afternoon, used to
 5     serve as an excellent mirror of life of Island
 6     communities.  Staff on the show did remote broadcasts
 7     from one end of the Island to the other and seemed to
 8     be on the road every day interviewing interesting folks
 9     who otherwise might never be heard from.
10  955                  The show also served as a showcase
11     for many talented Island and maritime musicians.  Some
12     of these young artists had their first exposure on
13     "Main Street" and have since gone on to develop highly
14     successful careers.  Even when the staff of the show
15     was cut in half because of reduced budgets, "Main
16     Street" continued to add a distinctively Island flavour
17     to CBC radio.
18  956                  Unfortunately, that has changed. 
19     Syndicated items from elsewhere in Canada have taken
20     over a much larger portion of the show.  Very little
21     local music is being played.  Interviews conducted from
22     the Charlottetown studio are often with people who have
23     little or no connection to this region.  Clearly, the
24     show is suffering from lack of funds.
25  957                  But I am told the shift in direction


 1     on "Main Street" occurred partly because of a policy
 2     decision at CBC headquarters.  I understand they
 3     changed the format of the show and began issuing
 4     directives that not only called for a certain number of
 5     syndicated items per day, but actually specified which
 6     items had to be broadcast.  It is a mystery to me why a
 7     person in an office in Toronto would presume to know
 8     better than people who live and work on the Island what
 9     Islanders want to hear.
10  958                  I also wonder why they would impose
11     syndicated items on a local show when so much of the
12     broadcast day already consists of material from across
13     the country.
14  959                  In any case, the result is clear,
15     local artists have lost a much needed venue and our
16     community has essentially lost another forum.
17  960                  Yes, we do want to hear about other
18     Canadians elsewhere, but first we need to tell and hear
19     our own stories.  To feel good about ourselves and to
20     strengthen the bonds of our community we need to
21     celebrate what is unique about public affairs, unique
22     in our corner of Canada.  In order to make intelligent
23     decisions about public affairs we need to be informed
24     about what is going on in our daily lives.
25  961                  The CBC seems to be operating these


 1     days on a department store type of philosophy.  We
 2     recently saw Eaton's close in P.E.I., not because they
 3     weren't making money, but because it didn't fit their
 4     national identity.  It's a philosophy that all the
 5     policy should apply across the country, regardless of
 6     what works or is needed in any particular region.
 7  962                  As Canadians we do share many values
 8     and characteristics, but, as I said at the outset, we
 9     are all so regionally distinctive and our acceptance
10     and tolerance of that fact makes us a truly great
11     nation.  A national broadcaster should reflect that
12     reality and not attempt to ignore it.
13  963                  At a time in which ownership of the
14     media has become increasingly concentrated, in fewer
15     and fewer corporate hands and with syndication of our
16     broadcast media homogenizing the sound of our airwaves,
17     the CBC should provide us with a choice.
18  964                  Members of the Commission, if I could 
19     deliver only one message to you that you in  could pass
20     on to the CBC, it would be this:  Please do not destroy
21     what works well in seeking to improve what does not
22     work well.  Every market across Canada is different and
23     a truly national public broadcaster should respect our
24     regional variances.
25  965                  In fact, I maintain that those


 1     differences should be celebrated.  The result would be
 2     a stronger country and an infinitely better CBC.
 3  966                  Thank you.
 4     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 5  967                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
 6     Thank you very much, Monsieur le premier ministre.  It
 7     is a great honour for the Commission and I am sure for
 8     the CBC as well that it was important enough for you,
 9     as it is for the Islanders, to come and meet with us
10     this evening.  Thank you very much for your
11     participation.
12  968                  I can tell you that your intervention
13     echoes what we have been hearing all afternoon.  It is
14     the great attachment and the necessity of hearing a
15     voice that is local and not strictly about national,
16     which is important as well as regional, but local about
17     P.E.I.
18  969                  Thank you very much.  I don't know if
19     Mr. Langford has any remarks.
20  970                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You can save
21     any money you plan to spend on polling.  You are
22     completely in tune with your constituents.
23  971                  PREMIER BINNS:  Thank you.
24  972                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
25     Thank you very much.


 1                                                        1835
 2  973                  MR. STEWART:  I now invite Mr. Leo
 3     Broderick to make his presentation.
 5  974                  MR. BRODERICK:  Thank you very much.
 6  975                  I have parent/teacher interviews and
 7     I am late, so I won't be able to remain for 10 minutes. 
 8     I will only take a couple of minutes.
 9  976                  I am a teacher.  I am a very
10     concerned citizen in this province and I am very
11     concerned in particular with what is happening to many
12     of our national institutions, particularly the Canadian
13     Broadcasting Corporation.
14  977                  There is no question that we need a
15     strong CBC, both radio and television, and I am
16     extremely concerned that with television we have moved
17     to commercialization and I do recommend strongly that
18     with Canadian television that there be no commercials
19     and that we move quickly to get rid of commercials with
20     television and that certainly with radio we keep it
21     non-commercial.
22  978                  I am extremely concerned as well that
23     I believe there is a tremendous amount of political
24     influence at the CBC.  Most people or all people
25     appointed, I understand, to the board of the CBC, are


 1     appointed as political patronage.  I am even told that
 2     even members of the CRTC are all appointed that way, so
 3     what we are finding is that the politics of the day
 4     determine pretty much where our public broadcasting
 5     corporation is going.
 6  979                  And the move in this country over the
 7     last 10, 12 years is to privatize almost everything.  I
 8     believe that the agenda for the CBC is one of
 9     privatization and I object strongly to this move.  It
10     must remain in the public sphere.  The airwaves are
11     still public and the mandate given to the CBC in 1932,
12     to ensure that we reach all parts of this country and
13     that we continue to protect ourselves from
14     Americanization are still valid.  I do strongly urge
15     that we counter any further moves to reduce the budget
16     of the CBC and that we move to privatization through
17     commercialization or any other means.
18  980                  I also want to say that I do think
19     that there is within government, as well as the CBC, a
20     profound disrespect for workers and that very often
21     there is a move to eliminate collective bargaining
22     rights of workers.  I think in this present climate in
23     this country it is very difficult for people to belong
24     to unions and I want to object to the way the Canadian
25     Broadcasting Corporation is treating its workers today.


 1  981                  Now, I do want to make just a couple
 2     of suggestions.  One, we need to continue and improve
 3     with a strong regional CBC and we need a stronger CBC
 4     in this province.  That means that we need to put more
 5     money into the local CBC, so that we can have more
 6     programming.  We have been dramatically cut over the
 7     last number of years.
 8  982                  As well, I do believe that in terms
 9     of television we really have to take a serious look at
10     the kind of programming that is coming into our country
11     by way of the American programming.
12  983                  So, I do have a number of comments,
13     but I must leave.  To conclude, I want to say that we
14     need a stop put to the privatization talk that is going
15     on across this country.  It is critical, particularly
16     in the regions, that we maintain a strong public
17     broadcasting corporation for the various reasons I am
18     sure that you have heard all day.  So, it's critical. 
19     Thank you.
20  984                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
21     Thank you very much, sir.
22  985                  MR. STEWART:  I now invite Mr. Leo
23     Cheverie --
24  986                  COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Excuse me, I
25     just wanted to say one thing.  We have no secret agenda


 1     and we came here to hear the people of Prince Edward
 2     Island.  We have no plans to dismantle or destroy or to
 3     do anything under the table.  We are here to do
 4     everything above the table.  So, I can only say it and
 5     I hope you will believe it.
 6  987                  MR. BRODERICK:  I am saying that in
 7     response to the fact that the Chair of the CRTC says
 8     that in terms of protecting Canadian culture we must
 9     face the reality that there is deregulation, which
10     means simply that in terms of many of the things that
11     we have in this country to protect Canadian culture
12     from foreign domination will be submitted to a
13     deregulated system.
14  988                  And he has made the comment and I
15     think with that kind of thinking we can expect that in
16     terms of the CBC, as well as the CRTC, we cannot and
17     will not be able to put in place the kinds of things to
18     protect us from the cultural invasion and intrusion
19     from the United States and elsewhere.
20  989                  I think particularly with the WTO
21     hearings coming up very quickly, very soon on this
22     whole question of cultural industries, it is critical
23     that we get our position and we know where we stand in
24     this country and that we ask --
25  990                  THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 


 1     Sir, I am the Chair of the CRTC.  I am not militant for
 2     deregulation in broadcasting and I have been a public
 3     broadcaster myself.  So, thank you.
 4  991                  MR. BRODERICK:  Well, it's good to
 5     hear it.
 6                                                        1845
 7  992                  MR. STEWART:  I now invite Mr. Leo
 8     Cheverie to make his presentation.
10  993                  MR. CHEVERIE:  Hello.  I thank you
11     for the opportunity to appear here and I am probably in
12     the unique position to actually speak on behalf of two
13     separate groups, one of which is the Prince Edward
14     Island Federation of Labour, which has 8,000 members on
15     P.E.I., and the other one is the Canadian Union of
16     Public Employees, which represents 3,000 people on
17     P.E.I.  I want to give regrets from the Presidents of
18     both organizations.  One President, Brenda Walker of
19     the P.E.I. Federation of Labour is actually conducting
20     a meeting presently, which I am actually going to be
21     late for and she wanted to give regrets for not being
22     here herself because of this other meeting that is
23     taking place, she couldn't.  She asked me to convey her
24     greetings to you.  And also to Bill MacKinnon, who is
25     the Provincial President of the P.E.I. Division of


 1     CUPE, of which I am the Executive Member and he is out
 2     of province.
 3  994                  Basically, what I want to talk to you
 4     about, many of the issues probably have come up earlier
 5     this evening and earlier this afternoon and probably
 6     will continue to be so, but we wanted to really
 7     emphasize the fact that public broadcasting is very
 8     important and vital to all Canadians, and in particular
 9     Canadians who live in regions such as Prince Edward
10     Island.
11  995                  It is something that is critical for
12     us to have our own voice, to have our own programs and
13     to have a means to talk to each other and to have our
14     cultural identity and our local voices heard.  And,
15     unfortunately, that is not the trend that has been
16     happening most recently.
17  996                  We are aware, for example, of those
18     people within the labour movement itself and have
19     observed in many other sectors where deregulation has
20     taken place, or where in fact, for example, in Atlantic
21     Canada we have seen the dismemberment of something like
22     Via Rail as a transportation agency.  That was done
23     very gradually, gradual cuts to our transportation
24     system which linked us to other parts of Canada, and in
25     a much different way the CBC does link us from coast to


 1     coast and in much the same way we do see some of these
 2     incremental cuts or cuts that are continually being
 3     made that are actually cutting off our voices that are
 4     meant to be heard.  We find that the same sort of route
 5     is taking place.
 6  997                  Obviously, since 1993, since the last
 7     federal election and at that point in time the Liberals
 8     in the election campaign promised stable funding.  We
 9     know since that point in time that the CBC has been cut
10     by $400 million or 33 per cent, which is an astounding
11     number, considering in fact that that promise had been
12     made and the promise has been broken.  That has made a
13     very large difference in CBC staff cuts.  In
14     Charlottetown we have some local programs which have
15     been cut by more than 50 per cent in terms of the staff
16     that are carrying out those programs.
17  998                  The Premier has recently indicated a
18     number of programs that used to take place, that were
19     made locally and that aren't made any longer.  We know
20     that the cuts not only in staffing, but even the number
21     of staff that are remaining have a much larger burden
22     in trying to preserve the quality of programming.  I
23     want to commend them for their real commitment to
24     trying to do that under very difficult circumstances.
25  999                  We do know that in the previous


 1     negotiations of the CEP workers they did make some
 2     efforts to try to work with the Corporation, even in
 3     the era of budget cuts, in trying to preserve
 4     programming.
 5  1000                 However, at this point in time it
 6     looks like their efforts in trying to do that, in
 7     trying to look out for Canadians and trying to preserve
 8     programming is not being recognized whatsoever by the
 9     Corporation.
10  1001                 We do know that in fact other cuts
11     are taking place.  For example, the cuts to the
12     Canadian Television Fund, which Ottawa's rules have
13     changed and which the CBC formerly got $100 million or
14     50 per cent of that fund.  Now there are some new
15     hidden cuts for the CBC totalling an additional $34
16     million.
17  1002                 We do know that there are many
18     privatization forces out there.  We have heard recently
19     in the news of one private corporation that does want
20     to get -- who are actually very actively lobbying for a
21     greater reduction in the public services and public
22     programs provided by both CBC radio and television
23     because they want to enter that.
24  1003                 In Charlottetown, and in P.E.I. as a
25     whole, we have not been well served by private


 1     broadcasters.  I will give you two indications of that,
 2     both daily newspapers on Prince Edward Island are owned
 3     by one group, Conrad Black.  We do know as well,
 4     though, that, for example, the three private stations
 5     in Charlottetown are all now owned by the same
 6     communications group and within that agency the on-air
 7     voices have been severely diminished.
 8  1004                 We know that there have been cutbacks
 9     within their news departments as well.  The only
10     departments in those private radio stations that have
11     actually held on or maybe even increased have been
12     their ad departments.  Yet much of that local
13     programming that takes place within those private radio
14     stations hasn't reflected regional voices because many
15     of the programming that is taken place is taking place
16     outside of Prince Edward Island.
17  1005                 So now, more than ever, we need a
18     public voice that is strong and that reflects our
19     voices.
20  1006                 I want to give you an example of I
21     think the passion or the need and people's response to
22     it.  Myself, along with two other people, less than two
23     years ago were very concerned about what was happening
24     with cutbacks at the CBC.  We were involved with a
25     campaign which was part of a national campaign called


 1     "CBC, Ours to Keep" campaign.
 2  1007                 In starting out with three people,
 3     with no resources, within a two-week period with the
 4     assistance of many other people who came on board, we
 5     were able to produce a three and a half hour show of
 6     entertainers and musicians from one end of this Island
 7     to the other, and who were all there very much to
 8     support the CBC because they knew how much it meant to
 9     them.
10  1008                 I could mention to you many
11     performers on P.E.I., such as Paul Bernard, a classical
12     musician who also belongs to the group Este Mundo,
13     Lenny Gallant, who feel very strongly and passionately
14     that without the CBC their voices would not have been
15     heard on a national basis.
16  1009                 As well, we do know as well that it
17     is very important that if their voices aren't heard
18     then we are actually undermining our own culture and
19     our own ability to tell our own stories.
20  1010                 I think it is very important that the
21     CBC -- the feeling of the people who came to this
22     event, we had well over 200 people attend.  We had
23     about 15 acts.  We had a number of speakers who spoke
24     for many different organizations who all came together
25     to say CBC is ours.  It was extraordinary because this


 1     all happened within less than a two-week period with
 2     absolutely no dollars whatsoever to support it.
 3  1011                 The clear message there was that the
 4     CBC had been there for these people, these artists,
 5     these musicians, voices in terms of getting stories out
 6     and in terms of getting news out about our Island, and
 7     it was very important to preserve that voice.  Right
 8     now it seems that with the strike that is taking place,
 9     with the apparent lack of commitment on behalf of the
10     board of directors of the CBC to really push for
11     stronger or increased funding, that in fact local and
12     regional programming is being threatened, and there is
13     actually a move afoot to have more centralized radio
14     and TV news and radio and TV coverage.  We see as an
15     example the local afternoon show "Main Street", where
16     in fact the local content within it has been severely
17     diminished.
18  1012                 There are also many other cuts that
19     are also taking place.  So, I think right now there is
20     a very strong -- the only way we can preserve our voice
21     is sort of a strong public voice, both radio and
22     television, both in entertainment or culture and as
23     well within news in order to make sure that our stories
24     are told and our voices are heard, both locally and
25     nationally.  Unfortunately, what has been happening is


 1     the fact that we have seen a very slow decline, in the
 2     same way that other things have been cut back of the
 3     CBC's ability to do that.
 4  1013                 I would ask the CRTC, respectfully,
 5     to encourage the federal government and encourage the
 6     present government to make sure that the CBC is given
 7     the resources that it needs to fulfil that mandate and,
 8     as well, that in fact the atmosphere that we are trying
 9     to maintain of our public voice is the fact that other
10     private broadcasters seem to be the ones that are
11     eroding our ability to put out voices.  They are doing
12     it for a profit motive, but at the same time as well we
13     noticed within our own market here that more money has
14     been put in trying to recruit advertising for other
15     types of programs on P.E.I., yet news departments and
16     other on-air programs have been severely diminished.
17  1014                 So, that's a very clear example of
18     where we see the private sector isn't really fulfilling
19     our needs on P.E.I.  We also know as well that other
20     television networks other than the CBC haven't played
21     any strong role in trying to preserve our stories at
22     this point in time.
23  1015                 So, the CBC is very vital for that
24     purpose.  I would like to urge as well that the CBC
25     itself as an institution, that the board members, who


 1     are appointed by the Prime Minister, that in fact
 2     perhaps other means can be had so that those people who
 3     are there appointed to the CBC, and there are a number
 4     of people there, for example, that people have had
 5     critiques about, whether it be John Campion who last
 6     year co-Chaired a Liberal Party of Canada golfing
 7     fundraiser, or the Montreal lawyer Roy Heenan who long
 8     acted as the CBC's labour advisor and whose firm has
 9     been representing the broadcaster during the current
10     labour fight, that those people on the CBC board don't
11     really represent the people that we need to represent
12     the CBC in terms of what Canadians want it to be.
13  1016                 So, I think it is very important to
14     send that message, that in fact the CBC needs to
15     maintain its leadership role in hearing Canadians'
16     voices from coast to coast to coast --
17  1017                 MR. STEWART:  Excuse me, sir, you
18     have reached your 10 minutes.
19                                                        1855
20  1018                 MR. CHEVERIE:  Thank you very much.
21     --- Pause / Pause
22  1019                 MR. STEWART:  With your permission,
23     Madame la Présidente, I will ask the next speaker to
24     make his presentation and that Dr. Phillip Smith.


 1  1020                 DR. SMITH:  Good evening.  My name is
 2     Phillip Smith and I am the Dean of Arts at the
 3     University of Prince Edward Island.  I appreciate the
 4     opportunity to join with many others in speaking of the
 5     vital importance of a strong and effective public
 6     broadcaster to Canada and particularly to Prince Edward
 7     Island.
 8  1021                 The mission of a university and the
 9     mission of public broadcasting are, of course,
10     importantly different, but they do share features in
11     common.  Like the university, the Canadian Broadcasting
12     Corporation assists people in acquiring the knowledge
13     and understanding necessary for critical and creative
14     thinking and thus preparing them to contribute to their
15     own betterment and that of the society in which we
16     live.
17  1022                 Like the university, the CBC enhances
18     the prospects for a civil society, through enhancing
19     Canadian's understandings of each other, of the broader
20     world in which we exist and of the particular
21     communities of which we are a part.
22  1023                 For these and other reasons there
23     exists a natural affinity for CBC by many people at the
24     University of Prince Edward Island.  With that affinity
25     comes perhaps a sense of some ownership and a


 1     recognition of our right and responsibility to hold the
 2     CBC to a high standard of performance for its extremely
 3     important role in our country and our province.
 4  1024                 There is much that could be said, as
 5     you are hearing from many individuals and groups making
 6     submissions to you, and rather than try to be
 7     comprehensive I will focus on three specific points. 
 8     First, the role of the local CBC in the public life of
 9     Prince Edward Island is perhaps unique in the country.
10  1025                 We have a need here for detailed
11     information, inquiry, dialogue and investigation about
12     our provincial institutions, including, but not limited
13     to government because of our provincial status.  That
14     need will never be adequately addressed by regional
15     news and public affairs programming based in Halifax,
16     let alone nationally.
17  1026                 The current labour dispute and its
18     consequent elimination of almost all Prince Edward
19     Island presence on the CBC has made this abundantly
20     clear.
21  1027                 The public broadcaster is necessary
22     to enable an informed citizenry so that government and
23     other public institutions are accountable.  It may be
24     that citizens of larger jurisdictions have access to
25     adequate coverage of local news and current affairs for


 1     the private sector.  I am not convinced of that, but
 2     perhaps it is the case.  It is certainly the case that
 3     here on Prince Edward Island the public broadcaster
 4     makes an important difference to the quality of our
 5     democracy.
 6  1028                 Second, many in the CBC recognize
 7     that reflecting Canadians to ourselves must engage not
 8     only political but also our cultural selves.  The
 9     opportunity to enrich the cultural life of Prince
10     Edward Island is an important one for the CBC.  This
11     opportunity is diminished when, for example, the format
12     of the supper hour radio program changes from one
13     essentially entirely locally produced, with substantial
14     attention to the creative and performing arts, to one
15     with substantial air time given over to pieces produced
16     elsewhere, presumably so that local costs across the
17     country can be reduced.
18  1029                 I recognize the importance of
19     Canadians having an opportunity to learn of local
20     experiences of Canadians elsewhere.  The balance must
21     be an appropriate one.  And surely the previous balance
22     of a morning show and two locally produced hours in the
23     afternoon, five out of seven days a week, was not
24     excessively weighted to local programming.
25  1030                 Third, the CBC's responsibility to


 1     bring information and perspectives about the global
 2     community to Canadians is both essential and under
 3     siege.  How embarrassing it must have been for the CBC
 4     to announce a few weeks ago the closure of three
 5     international bureaus.
 6  1031                 The closure of the Paris bureau, when
 7     Canadians must learn as much as we can about a country
 8     of such social, cultural and economic significance to
 9     Quebec and Canada, how bizarre to close up shop.
10  1032                 How embarrassing it must have been to
11     announce the same day the closure of the Mexico City
12     bureau at a time of NAFTA, globalization and cultural
13     linkages.
14  1033                 Yes, in the age of multiple channels
15     there are multiple opportunities to access U.S.
16     information about world affairs, but are we to be left
17     to an Americanized version of all that happens outside
18     of our borders?  Surely not.
19  1034                 So, even in these three brief points
20     I emphasize the vital significance of what the CBC
21     contributes and I say that we require more.  Without
22     having details of internal budgeting I cannot be sure
23     that there is no waste or fat in the CBC, but I find it
24     hard to imagine that funding cuts of the magnitude
25     suffered in recent years can allow programming


 1     excellence to be maintained and grow.
 2  1035                 While recognizing that the CRTC does
 3     not control CBC budgeting allocations, I do urge you to
 4     communicate to the federal government the vital
 5     significance of an adequately funded CBC.
 6  1036                 Thank you.
 7  1037                 THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
 8     Thank you.
 9                                                        1900
10  1038                 MR. STEWART:  The next speaker or
11     presenter is a representative of the P.E.I. Federation
12     of Labour.  I would ask that that person identify
13     himself or herself.
14  1039                 Thank you.
15  1040                 It would appear that Mr. Cheverie
16     spoke on behalf of that organization.
17  1041                 I now call upon Ms Jennifer Shields
18     to make her presentation.
20  1042                 MS SHIELDS:  Good evening.  My name
21     is Jennifer Shields and I live near Emerydale.  I would
22     like to thank you for this opportunity to speak.  Am I
23     close enough to the microphone?  Is that good?  Too
24     close?
25  1043                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  (Off


 1     microphone/sans microphone)
 2  1044                 MS SHIELDS:  Now, if we had a
 3     fireplace.
 4  1045                 I am an avid CBC radio listener.  I
 5     can't speak to CBC-TV.  I actually by choice don't own
 6     a television, but I am an avid CBC radio listener and
 7     my presentation will focus on CBC One and CBC Two.
 8  1046                 I think that, yes --
 9  1047                 A SPEAKER:  We cannot hear you.
10  1048                 MS SHIELDS:  You cannot hear.
11  1049                 MR. STEWART:  Perhaps if you could
12     get closer to the microphone and, if possible, speak
13     more into the microphone.
14  1050                 MS SHIELDS:  Is that better?  Yes. 
15     Okay.  That's my soft Irish voice.  That's better.
16  1051                 I was saying that I am an avid CBC
17     radio listener and I can't speak to CBC television.  By
18     choice I don't own a television, but I listen to CBC
19     radio, both Radio One and Radio Two, and that's what my
20     presentation will focus on.
21  1052                 I think that CBC radio has a vital
22     role to play at both the national and the local level,
23     and I think governments are incredibly shortsighted in
24     not realizing that.
25  1053                 To the Canadian government, if they


 1     were here, I would say restore the funding to the CBC. 
 2     To the CRTC, I know the focus tonight is on the CBC
 3     mandate and where it fits in Canadian life and there is
 4     a number of points I would like to make.
 5  1054                 The first one is that I think it is
 6     the only radio station that broadcasts from coast to
 7     coast, and for that reason it is in a very unique
 8     position.  It has the ability to reach all Canadians in
 9     English and French and I want to hear about other parts
10     of Canada.  I think it is critical indeed that we are
11     informed of issues all across this country.
12  1055                 I want to hear about the farm crisis
13     in Saskatchewan.  I want to hear about the creation of
14     Nunavut, the logging and development controversies in
15     British Columbia and any other controversy in British
16     Columbia that happens to be going on.  No other better
17     vehicle for that than the national public broadcaster.
18  1056                 I think CBC is a force for good for
19     the health of this nation.
20  1057                 The second point I would like to make
21     is that I truly appreciate quality programming
22     available on CBC radio.  I don't think it exists on
23     commercial radio, and I am speaking about Radio Two and
24     Radio One.  When I think about programs like "Ideas"
25     and "As It Happens" there is nothing comparable


 1     available anywhere else.
 2  1058                 As an aside, I would like to urge
 3     that there be a stop in the repeats and reruns on CBC
 4     radio.  It think it is demeaning and unnecessary.
 5  1059                 The third point that I would like to
 6     make, I think the CBC has a very vital role to play
 7     regionally and at the local level.  I think programs
 8     like "Maritime Noon" at the regional level and our
 9     morning and evening local shows are very, very
10     important to the local community.  They bring us
11     current local events, issues, all kinds of details
12     about our cultural life here and without it, without
13     CBC radio I think there is a yawning gap in what
14     information we receive.
15  1060                 I think we are experiencing some of
16     that right now with this strike.  I know that is not
17     the issue here, but I wish them well in resolving it. 
18     I would like to say I am just appalled that they have
19     been crippled by these funding problems which has
20     brought about this strike no doubt.
21  1061                 You could argue that I could get my
22     local news from a commercial radio station and I would
23     argue back that what I would get would be two minutes
24     of truncated news amid a barrage of advertising and
25     loud music that I don't like to listen to.  And as a


 1     further aside, please no, no, no to advertising on CBC
 2     radio.
 3  1062                 In summary, I would like to say that
 4     I and many Canadians go through my day with CBC radio,
 5     One and Two.  I always start the day with "The Morning
 6     Show".  I listen to the national news.  I am a person
 7     who drives in my work, so I am in and out of my car all
 8     day long.  I listen in my car.  I listen to the driving
 9     home show.  I often make dinner to "As It Happens". 
10     It's part of my life.  It makes me connected to this
11     community and to the maritimes and to this country.
12  1063                 I think we need the CBC.  I think it
13     should be kept vibrant.  I think it needs to be present
14     at the local, regional and national level.
15  1064                 As a preacher's kid I would quote a
16     hymn and say I think it is the tie that binds this
17     community, this region and, most important of all, all
18     of us as Canadians.
19  1065                 Thank you for this opportunity.
20     --- Applause / Applaudissements
21  1066                 THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
22     Thank you.
23                                                        1905
24  1067                 MR. STEWART:  I would now like to
25     invite Ms Mary Boyd to make a presentation.


 2  1068                 MS BOYD:  Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.
 3  1069                 I am going to start by apologizing
 4     because I am going to be jumping from one set of notes
 5     to another.  I didn't manage to have enough time in the
 6     day to get everything into one organized situation, and
 7     whatever I say in my presentation in my remarks I want
 8     to say that I fully understand the role of the CRTC. 
 9     If I sound critical in any way it is not at the CRTC at
10     all.  I very much appreciate what you are trying to do
11     and your role.
12  1070                 In trying to respond to some of the
13     questions that you have asked us about how well does
14     the CBC fulfil its role as a national broadcaster,
15     under the circumstances I say very well, except that I
16     do regret some of the difficulties the CBC faces
17     because of the number of cuts.  I will say, quite
18     frankly, that it fulfils its role much better than any
19     broadcaster in the private sectors.  One of its great
20     marks is quality.
21  1071                 I am also among the people who would
22     say that the CBC is unique.  I think that one of the
23     reasons that we appreciate the CBC is that through its
24     public character we feel that we can often rely on its
25     information in a way that we cannot when there are


 1     vested interests that are often less than objective.
 2  1072                 As far as looking at the new
 3     millennium, I would hope that the CBC will be
 4     strengthened, not weakened, that it will be even more
 5     accessible to Canadians.  Also, that the high quality
 6     that has become its characteristic will improve and
 7     that its nature will be broadened, that its programs,
 8     its work will be broadened throughout the Canadian
 9     community, not limited.  That it will truly become a
10     people's broadcaster.  It is that now and it is
11     recognized, but I don't think the people of Canada
12     understand well, and even I think some people in the
13     CBC, the nature of a truly public institution.  That it
14     really does belong to the people.  That by being public
15     it is accessible and in some ways one could almost say
16     accessible, we expect the CBC and its services in much
17     the way that we expect the accessibility in our health
18     care system.
19  1073                 But not just broadcasting for
20     Canadians or from a Canadian perspective.  We also want
21     the CBC to reach out to the globe and to be able to
22     encounter the people of the globe and help us to better
23     understand the reality of people's lives, but in the
24     new millennium to really put people first in every
25     sense of the word, which is something we cannot rely on


 1     the private sector to do and to keep working for
 2     equality, and for the kind of social justice that is so
 3     important in our society.
 4  1074                 As a public broadcaster, the CBC has
 5     given Canadians a measure of equal access which in turn
 6     helps us to know each other better.  This is so
 7     important, but we still have a long way to go in
 8     achieving this kind of understanding in this vast
 9     country.
10  1075                 It has helped to improve our
11     knowledge of important economic, cultural and political
12     issues and I think of its strong, strong presence in
13     current affairs.  There was a time, thanks to the CBC,
14     when Canadians were considered to be the most literate
15     people in the world.  Cutbacks, you know -- I regret
16     the fact that we have lost some of those programs that
17     have contributed to that and I really, really urge that
18     we get the funding to restore those because it is quite
19     a wonderful thing to live in a country where you can
20     have that kind of public access.
21  1076                 It makes us more sophisticated as a
22     people, but not only that, it makes us more
23     self-assured in many ways and empowers us to do more.
24  1077                 As far as looking at the CBC and how
25     it serves the region and the national level, I think


 1     that the local service is extremely important.  I
 2     really make a plea, as many people have, not to cut
 3     back on our local services.  We need the CBC,
 4     television and radio services, in Prince Edward Island. 
 5     We need them for many, many reasons and we don't have
 6     enough services.
 7  1078                 You have heard already the regrets of
 8     people about cutbacks and we ask that we strengthen
 9     those local services because with fewer programs and
10     less coverage it is a lot more difficult.
11  1079                 The local programming that exists is
12     very good.  It is a high quality and the fact that -- I
13     don't think it could be replaced.  It would be a
14     terrific loss -- a terrific blow to this community if
15     it was withdrawn.
16  1080                 Again, if I look at the regional
17     programs, I also appreciate them very much because it
18     is very good to know our neighbours in the neighbouring
19     provinces and we share a lot in common.  I think the
20     role of the CBC in encouraging the arts in this region
21     has been extremely important.  My father was the first
22     Scottish fiddler in Canada to make records and I have
23     to say that it is with great pride that I watch our
24     artists, whether it's P.E.I. or Cape Breton fiddlers,
25     now not only becoming renowned nationally, but also


 1     internationally.
 2  1081                 And all of this is part of our fight,
 3     as others have mentioned, to protect our culture and to
 4     protect us against the rapid push of Americanization. 
 5     The CBC is so important in that whole area of us
 6     knowing who we are as Canadians and keeping our
 7     identity.  But sad to say a lot of the arts programs
 8     are gone.  They are basically gone and there was a time
 9     when I served on the Religious Advisory Committee of
10     the CBC and I very much regret that we really do not
11     have religious programming any more because of
12     cutbacks.
13  1082                 Is the CBC different from other
14     broadcasters?  Yes, it is.  As I mentioned,
15     accessibility, and I think that offering opportunities
16     is so important.  I think that the CBC does need to
17     protect Canadian culture and celebrate more who we are,
18     enrich one another's -- enrich us in many ways.
19  1083                 I think that the CBC does have a
20     special role to play in the presentation of Canadian
21     programming.  I agree with that very much, to encourage
22     and to incubate Canadian content, whether it's films,
23     whether it's cultural events, whether it is the various
24     ways we express our values as Canadians and our
25     culture, the things that bind us together, and I too


 1     feel that advertising is a vexation for us on the CBC
 2     when we are watching it.
 3  1084                 Another thing -- as people living in
 4     this region we have been cut off.  We feel isolated in
 5     many ways and the CBC is extremely important.  We
 6     suffer a lot from the centralization of this country
 7     and that, in fact, Canada is usually defined as
 8     somewhere in that triangle from Ottawa to Toronto and
 9     to Montreal.
10  1085                 So, anything that encourages that
11     kind of centralization won't do.  If we want to build
12     something strong and build a strong country, we need to
13     start from the base and build up, not have a top-down
14     situation.  But cuts to the CBC are forcing the reverse
15     and the danger of everything coming from the top and no
16     voice at the base at all.
17  1086                 The cuts have been drastic and, in
18     many cases, one staff person is doing the job of two or
19     three people.  This is deplorable in a country with our
20     resources and surpluses now in our budget, wherever
21     they are supposed to be going.
22  1087                 There hasn't been an increase in
23     about eight years in CBC funding.  You know, even the
24     inflation rate seems to be too much for our government
25     at this point.  It is no way to treat an important and


 1     vital institution in our country.
 2  1088                 People in the CBC and in the public
 3     have every right to be unhappy about the situation now
 4     and the way they are being treated.
 5  1089                 MR. STEWART:  Excuse me, madam, you
 6     have reached the 10-minute market.  If you would be
 7     good enough to conclude.
 8  1090                 MS BOYD:  One sentence, please.  What
 9     I want to say is it's frightening to think that we
10     might have some new czar in Ottawa who is really under
11     the control of the federal government, that it looks as
12     if the CBC's future has become very political.  We have
13     to keep it at arm's length to have the independence it
14     needs to be objective.
15  1091                 So, please don't close down the local
16     or regional CBC outlets.  Please don't allow any more
17     cutbacks.  Let's restore the funding.  The CBC is a
18     model for broadcasting for others.  We need that
19     standard.  We will be very impoverished without it. 
20     So, please, we ask you to protect the CBC and protect
21     it from further decline and political vengeance.
22  1092                 Thank you.
23                                                        1915
24  1093                 MR. STEWART:  I would now like to
25     invite Ms Sandi MacKinnon to make her presentation.


 2  1094                 MS MacKINNON:  We have the
 3     opportunity  to be here tonight.  I have some remarks
 4     that I have prepared.
 5  1095                 This is both an opportune time and an
 6     ambivalent time for the CRTC to be holding hearings on
 7     the mandate of the CBC.  The hearings certainly provide
 8     a forum for people to voice their concern about the
 9     future of the CBC.  The current strike may be just
10     giving us a forecast of what is going to happen to
11     local and regional broadcasting in the not too distant
12     future.
13  1096                 No doubt the Commission will hear
14     things and have heard things from intervenors that are
15     outside the jurisdiction of the CRTC.  And no doubt
16     anything that will be said here today has been said by
17     other people throughout the country.  Hopefully, by the
18     end of these hearings, the CRTC will have received a
19     clear message that the CBC is a national treasure to be
20     valued and protected.
21  1097                 I believe that it is one of the
22     foundation blocks of our country.  It allows us to
23     learn more about ourselves and about each other.  A CBC
24     with a strong mandate to provide local, regional,
25     national and international information and to promote


 1     Canadian culture is vital if we are going to have any
 2     hope of maintaining a Canadian identity and our
 3     sovereignty as a nation.
 4  1098                 I cannot speak about CBC television,
 5     as I gave it up about 15 years ago.  I am a CBC radio
 6     listener and so it is to this area that I will direct
 7     the majority of my comments.
 8  1099                 Anyone who is a listener of CBC radio
 9     has a personal relationship with the CBC.  I would like
10     to take just a few moments to describe mine.  I began
11     listening to CBC radio when I lived in the middle of
12     the Gulf of St. Lawrence on the Magdalen Islands back
13     in 1981.
14  1100                 CBC was my lifeline to the rest of
15     the world.  I was a stay-at-home mom and listened to
16     the radio in the daytime when my kids were up and in
17     the evening when they had gone to bed.  Given that
18     everyone and everything in my immediate world was
19     French, and being an anglophone myself, listening to
20     CBC was often like having a friend drop by for a chat. 
21     I can honestly say that I have felt a friendship with
22     Fireside Al, Barbara Frum, Peter Gzowski, even thought
23     I have never met any of them.
24  1101                 My children have grown up listening
25     to CBC.  The sports scores are important to them, the


 1     music, using their words, "sucks" but many a discussion
 2     in our home has come about as a result of something we
 3     heard on CBC radio.  CBC is the only television station
 4     in our home and so even though my children are watching
 5     TV, I have some assurance that they are probably
 6     watching some of the best television that is available.
 7  1102                 My relationship with CBC eventually
 8     grew from that of listener to that of broadcaster. 
 9     From those years of being at home with my children and
10     listening to CBC radio I decided that one day I would
11     like to be a radio broadcaster myself and work at CBC.
12  1103                 In 1990, I went to CBC Charlottetown
13     for an on-the-job training as part of a journalism
14     course I was taking through the local community
15     college.  I spent the next four years working there as
16     a casual worker and a freelancer.  No chance of getting
17     a job because 1990 marked the beginning of the first
18     rounds of severe cuts to the CBC and perhaps the
19     beginning of the end.
20  1104                 The CBC, like many other employers,
21     including other provincial and federal government
22     agencies, have found ways to get around collective
23     agreements negotiated by the unions, through the use of
24     casual employees.  There are people who have worked
25     steadily at the CBC for years as casual employees with


 1     no benefits, no security.  It was one of the reasons I
 2     opted out after four years.
 3  1105                 What I loved most about working at
 4     CBC was the getting out and meeting people, finding out
 5     what was going on in the community and bringing those
 6     stories and voices to the air.  There is a lot less of
 7     that happening now.  Cutbacks have compromised the
 8     quality of programming.  There are fewer
 9     writer/broadcasters to go out into the communities. 
10     Many interviews and stories are gathered over the phone
11     lines.  There are fewer documentaries, fewer foreign
12     bureaus and programming in general has suffered.
13  1106                 In 1990 there was a team of five
14     people who worked together to produce "Main Street",
15     the two hour afternoon show here in Charlottetown. 
16     This show had a cultural focus reporting on cultural
17     events and the nature of the Island way of life.  Each
18     round of cuts saw another person disappear from the
19     team, so that today all that is left is two people to
20     produce two hours of local programming.  The afternoon
21     show has lost its distinctive Island flavour and that's
22     because half of the items that are now aired are coming
23     from Edmonton, Toronto or Vancouver.  So much for local
24     programming.
25  1107                 It's not that we don't want to hear


 1     from other regions, but that's why we have national
 2     programming such as "This Morning", or regional shows
 3     such as "maritime Noon".
 4  1108                 The cynics say the writing is on the
 5     wall and that the demise of local CBC television and
 6     radio broadcasting is only a matter of time.  For a
 7     decade we have wondered when will they cut "Compass",
 8     the suppertime news show?  When will the afternoon
 9     radio show become a regionally based program?
10  1109                 Many of the decisions that have been
11     made are painful ones -- 2,000 employees laid off,
12     3,000 employees laid off.  I don't know what the
13     official tally is in the number of jobs lost since
14     1990, but it has had its toll not only on those who
15     have had to find new jobs, but for those who have
16     remained.  The broadcast standards that the CBC has set
17     are high, but it's difficult to maintain those
18     standards if the resources are not there to do so.
19  1110                 I fear that there is not much
20     sympathy for the striking technicians.  The scarcity of
21     jobs has created an anti-union sentiment, meaning that
22     if you have a job you should just put up and shut up. 
23     But how long will these jobs be out there?  This
24     current strike is about protecting what remains of the
25     CBC.  Certainly the technicians have a vested interest


 1     in protecting the remaining jobs, but it's not jobs
 2     just for the sake of jobs.  Further cuts will most
 3     likely mean the end of local public radio and
 4     television broadcasts.
 5  1111                 The CBC needs to maintain a strong
 6     mandate to continue its role of public broadcaster. 
 7     More and more, information is the key to the continued
 8     growth and vitality of our communities.  We need to
 9     know about events in Croatia and in Moscow and in
10     Guatemala, but we also need to know what is happening
11     with our neighbours, and we need to know so that we too
12     can become involved.
13  1112                 I don't know if this is within the
14     mandate of the CRTC, but I strongly urge you to
15     consider placing conditions on the CBC licence that
16     will ensure that local and regional programming is
17     maintained and protected.  It is just as important for
18     us here in Prince Edward Island to know what is going
19     on in our communities as it is for people who live in
20     the Slocan Valley in British Columbia to have access to
21     their communities through public radio.  If the CRTC
22     were to place such conditions on the licence then
23     perhaps it would prevent the government from further
24     funding cuts.
25  1113                 In the past three weeks I have missed


 1     listening the local radio programs in both the morning
 2     and the afternoon.  I feel out of touch with what is
 3     going on.  I guess the greatest benefactor in all of
 4     this is probably the local newspaper.  I'm sure that
 5     their sales have increased since we temporarily lost
 6     our local programs.  The only positive things that I
 7     can really say about this strike is that my
 8     appreciation for the local programs has grown and that
 9     Islanders are getting a taste of what could be the
10     writing on the wall.
11  1114                 Thank you.
12                                                        1920
13     --- Applause / Applaudissements
14  1115                 MR. STEWART:  Now I would like to
15     invite Ms Ann Sherman to make her presentation.
17  1116                 MS SHERMAN:  Madame Bertrand and Mr.
18     Langford, thank you for the opportunity to speak to you
19     this evening.  My name, as you just heard, is Ann
20     Sherman.
21  1117                 MR. SHERMAN:  And mine is Joseph
22     Sherman.
23  1118                 MS SHERMAN:  We live here together in
24     Charlottetown, where Joe works as the editor of Arts
25     Atlantic magazine and I work as Executive Director of


 1     Community Legal Information Association.  We would like
 2     to make a joint presentation in support of the mandate
 3     and of the renewal of the CBC's licence.
 4  1119                 MR. SHERMAN:  This will speak to what
 5     has been and what barely is and with a view to what
 6     must be maintained, revitalized and reinvented.  The
 7     following comments apply exclusively to CBC radio.  We
 8     too haven't owned a television set, in our case for
 9     eight years.
10  1120                 I can declare that for approximately
11     22 years there was no time in my life for the CBC,
12     particularly for radio and whether it existed or not
13     did not concern me.  Those were, however, the first 22
14     years of my life, first in Cape Breton and then in
15     Fredericton.
16  1121                 Everything shifted with my joining a
17     university radio station.  Radio UNB was an unofficial
18     farm team for the CBC.  A number of my pals wound up as
19     long-term CBC employees and I myself thought seriously
20     of joining the corps.
21  1122                 MS SHERMAN:  When I came to Canada
22     from the U.K. in 1969, CBC informed and educated me
23     about my new home.  To some extent it also swaged
24     loneliness and homesickness and I too found myself in a
25     French part of the country where CBC became my intimate


 1     circle, my family while I made friends locally.
 2  1123                 MR. SHERMAN:  It's no exaggeration to
 3     say that CBC radio has been a constant for both of us
 4     since we moved to Edmundston, New Brunswick in 1970.  I
 5     began the first of my nine teaching years in
 6     northwestern New Brunswick.
 7  1124                 MS SHERMAN:  And I settled in to be
 8     sometimes employed outside the home, mostly a working
 9     inside the home mom, linked to the rest of Canada and
10     to the rest of the world by the CBC.
11  1125                 MR. SHERMAN:  Up there we hoped to
12     pull in the signal bounced from Fredericton via the
13     LPRT with the news and weather affecting us.  In that
14     time we both did some freelance work for CBC radio.  My
15     wife doing the more regular reporting, not so much for
16     the pay, but because we wanted to be a part of what we
17     intuited to be an exciting, intelligent activity that
18     happened to be public radio.
19  1126                 MS SHERMAN:  We have lived on P.E.I.
20     for nearly two decades now and I suppose our biggest
21     single complaint about the CBC, even with the cutbacks,
22     is that we rarely get to listen to our collection of
23     music.  We're too busy listening to the radio and we
24     can't bear to switch it off.
25  1127                 MR. SHERMAN:  In fact, I measure the


 1     success of CBC radio by the realization a few years ago
 2     that when Jeff Pevere's "Prime Time" was on in the
 3     evening I found myself unable to leave my car to attend
 4     a meeting because what I was hearing was that gripping. 
 5     That's the best of it, intelligent, entertaining,
 6     gripping programming that isn't soporific, but a
 7     stimulant.
 8  1128                 Nor are the people who have delivered
 9     the best CBC broadcasting ordinary broadcasters.  The
10     finest have been distinctive, even idiosyncratic.  How
11     can we not feel affection for a network that programs
12     the musical meanderings of sprightly octogenarians and
13     septuagenarians like the late Clive Gilmour and the
14     still vital Max Ferguson, announcers like the two Al's,
15     MacFee and Maitland, superbly textured the many
16     programs for which they polled oar.
17  1129                 We bought into the institutions of
18     Gzowski and Frum, the candy emporiums of Jack Farr and
19     Danny Finkleman, of the aforementioned Jeff Pevere. 
20     Voices and minds that engage us yet are those of Lister
21     Sinclair, Sheila Rogers, Marjorie Doyle, Ian Brown and
22     Kostas Salibrasos.
23  1130                 But none of this serves us
24     comprehensively without the CBC's regional component. 
25     Once we became householders with jobs it became


 1     mandatory.  Besides "Information Morning", which is our
 2     lodestone for P.E.I. life and activity, "Radio Noon"
 3     out of Halifax connects us with the well-phrased
 4     realities of the region.  Even the market reports have
 5     become reassuring.  Four to 6:00 p.m. programming has
 6     been at its best when the flavour of its music and
 7     stories is that of our community.
 8  1131                 MS SHERMAN:  The morning, noon and
 9     afternoon programs offer not only news and information,
10     but also those interesting and idiosyncratic takes on
11     matters of local import and local institutions.
12  1132                 I hesitate to mention this in public,
13     but one measure of how I value CBC radio is that I talk
14     back to it.  Sometimes in hostile in hostile
15     disagreement, sometimes in enthusiastic support. 
16     Irrespective, I'm engaged and I'm involved.  So are the
17     others, to judge by the response to talk back lines. 
18     The calls I heard go a long way towards expanding that
19     dialogue that I have with my radio.
20  1133                 The people who work at CBC have
21     become respected friends through our daily contact over
22     the airwaves.  Wayne Collins, Karen Mair and Matthew
23     Rainnie are voices that accompany us to work in the
24     morning and drive us home at night.
25  1134                 Our other friends are the producers,


 1     writers and researchers who bring our local programs to
 2     life.  They all do the best they can with limited
 3     resources and more and more constraints.
 4  1135                 MR. SHERMAN:  There is a small bias. 
 5     Both of us have appeared on P.E.I.'s "Main Street" over
 6     the years, again not for the money, but for the
 7     informed, passionate involvement, but also, frankly,
 8     because CBC allows us to reach an audience.  When it's
 9     on the air, P.E.I.'s "Main Street" has an impressive
10     share of the listening audience.
11  1136                 MS SHERMAN:  Our radio goes on in the
12     morning.  It stays on.  Ditto for our car.  Despite the
13     lacerating cutbacks which have produced far too much
14     program repetition, it stays on.  Despite the lamented
15     loss of much literary and artistic programming, it
16     stays on.  Through the current strike it stays on most
17     of the time, but we get to listen to some music now,
18     even as we complain and even as we are saddened by the
19     situation.
20  1137                 We have watched an organization with
21     high morale and oodles of creativity slide into
22     despond.  We have observed compromise after compromise
23     at management levels that have sucked marrow from CBC
24     radio.
25  1138                 MR. SHERMAN:  I cannot help but


 1     suspect a blisteringly flawed political agenda on the
 2     part of government and those who determine what the
 3     CBC's future holds.  It is a cynical, unimaginative
 4     non-vision, completely at odds with the original
 5     mandate and supported as we are, I can see the end of
 6     public broadcasting if only because the constant
 7     cutbacks mean that there is nothing to attract new
 8     listeners or command the loyalties of all but the most
 9     committed.  Attrition alone will do its rotten work
10     despite the best efforts of those left behind.
11  1139                 How emblematic that an early excision
12     was a program called "The Media File", a thorough and
13     thoroughly fascinating show that examined the modus
14     operandi and ethnical stance of all media, including
15     the CBC itself.
16  1140                 MS SHERMAN:  We have no patience for
17     those who recommend dismantling CBC radio.  They
18     presumably love commercials and shallow broadcasting
19     and they will never be friends of ours.  They are
20     welcome to the exercise of their free choice, but we
21     insist on having ours too and, as taxpayers, we speak
22     for the public's need of CBC radio.
23  1141                 MR. SHERMAN:  When people speak of
24     the CBC as toothless or redundant they ignore the fact
25     that the CBC doesn't just provide of myriad of voices


 1     representing Canadian culture.  The programming is
 2     simply better, a qualitative leap of light years from
 3     the competition, so-called competition, at least where
 4     we live.  I cringe at the thought of our several
 5     options.
 6  1142                 MS SHERMAN:  Over the past couple of
 7     years I have become used to listening to the overnight
 8     programming.  It's almost worth staying awake to catch
 9     the latest news from overseas, Papua, New Guinea,
10     Australia, Germany, various African countries and for
11     me the BBC, of course.  This service provides the means
12     to expand our minds and knowledge beyond our dear, safe
13     and isolated little island, but CBC cannot replace the
14     dynamic creativity it has demonstrated in past years by
15     relying on overseas imports and repeat broadcasts to
16     fill empty air.
17  1143                 A dynamic and effective democracy is
18     dependent on an informed and involved citizenry.  CBC
19     is one important means of achieving this end.  Civics
20     is no longer taught in our schools.  Relatively few of
21     our school children learn much of geography, history or
22     world politics.  The CBC has the potential to increase
23     their world view.
24  1144                 I fully support efforts to develop
25     programming for Canada's youth and I believe the


 1     Corporation is crucial.  Its licence deserves to be
 2     renewed and the government must be held accountable for
 3     giving the CBC what it needs to continue to provide
 4     excellent national, local, regional broadcasting.
 5  1145                 MR. SHERMAN:  This is an old story. 
 6     A miserly carter decides one day that he is spending
 7     far too much on fodder for his ancient cart horse, so
 8     he cuts the animal's hay ration back by one quarter. 
 9     At the end of a week the horse is still pulling his
10     weight, a little more slowly, and the carter decides to
11     cut the fodder by an additional quarter.
12  1146                 A week later the horse is visibly
13     emaciated and even slower, but the older carter reckons
14     that it's worth it to save the money.  "I ought to have
15     done this years ago," he gloats.
16  1147                 Another portion is cut from the
17     horse's rations.  Mid-way through the following way the
18     horse collapses and dies in its traces on the road. 
19     The enraged carter leaps from his wagon to kick at the
20     prostate form now still.  "Damned horse," froths the
21     carter, "just when I had it almost ready to work on
22     nothing at all it dies on me."
23  1148                 MS SHERMAN:  I'm beginning to think
24     that the federal government is prepared to kill off the
25     CBC before it dies naturally from the cutbacks being


 1     imposed by those who care nothing for our people and
 2     our culture.
 3  1149                 MR. STEWART:  Excuse me, you have
 4     reached the 10-minute mark.
 5  1150                 MS SHERMAN:  One paragraph more.
 6  1151                 MR. SHERMAN:  We don't really want to
 7     have to rely on our CD collection for entertainment and
 8     The Guardian, Globe and Mail and National Post for
 9     edification.  We would rather have to weigh the options
10     and find that we can turn the dial or switch the radio
11     off without depriving ourselves of something singular
12     and, yes, distinctly Canadian.  That's our choice.
13  1152                 MS SHERMAN:  Thank you.
14     --- Applause / Applaudissements
15  1153                 THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
16     Thank you very much.
17                                                        1935
18  1154                 MR. STEWART:  I now invite Ms Colleen
19     Pidgeon to make her presentation.
21  1155                 MS PIDGEON:  Good evening.  Thanks
22     for having the foresight to come and see us.
23  1156                 My remarks are brief.  I would just
24     say that in my opinion the CBC in fulfilling its role
25     has done it better than it is doing it at present and


 1     that I feel it needs to make improvement.
 2  1157                 The background that I have is that as
 3     a CBC listener, I was born and raised on it, inasmuch
 4     as it was the only thing available as the dependent of
 5     an RCAF father and I have listened to the CBC in
 6     virtually every part of Canada, all across the country. 
 7     The only place I can make an exception to is where I
 8     was born.  I was only there eight days.  I don't
 9     recall.
10  1158                 I am not going to speak as eloquently
11     as the people who have spoken before -- who you have
12     heard today.  Furthermore, I did hear a little on the
13     CBC about what you heard in Cape Breton and in Moncton. 
14     I just say "hear, hear".
15  1159                 My only other thing that I wish to
16     point out is that over the CBC in 1977 I heard about
17     and made a presentation to the Applebaum/Hébert Report. 
18     The recommendation I made at that time was to have a 
19     new national gallery constructed and I expect nothing
20     less from you.
21  1160                 Thank you very much.
22     --- Applause / Applaudissements
23  1161                 THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
24     You set the bar quite high.  Thank you.
25  1162                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  They spent


 1     all the money on the gallery.  There's nothing left for
 2     anyone else.
 3  1163                 MR. STEWART:  I now invite Ms Elaine
 4     Smith to make her presentation.
 6  1164                 MS SMITH:  Madame Bertrand and Mr.
 7     Langford, ladies and gentlemen.  I am not representing
 8     a group or business.  I come as a private citizen, so I
 9     am not here to give directives or even strong
10     suggestions, but I hope that my voice will add to
11     themes and perspectives that you have been hearing
12     during this day and earlier days.
13  1165                 I wish to speak first about CBC
14     television and then national radio and, thirdly,
15     regional radio.  I was going to say "rational" radio
16     and that's not bad too.
17  1166                 I come as a friend of the CBC, but
18     also the CBC is my friend.  It speaks a language and
19     uses idioms and expresses values that I understand. 
20     For example, American television and radio, but
21     particularly television, reminds me of what I am not. 
22     When Washington's birthday is presented as a point of
23     reference, I remember that I don't always remember when
24     that is, or when somebody says that I am as American as
25     apple pie, I'm not.


 1  1167                 CBC-TV reinforces the person I am and
 2     at risk on this Island I would say that I'm a Canadian
 3     first and an Islander second.
 4  1168                 "This Hour Has 22 Minutes", "Royal
 5     Canadian Air Farce" tell jokes that I understand. 
 6     "North of 60" and "Black Harbour" tell stories with
 7     which I can identify.
 8  1169                 CBC-TV gives an opportunity for
 9     Canadian talent.  I remember so well Kate Reid and what
10     she contributed to our idea of the theatre in this
11     country and now we have Martha MacIsaac and Martha
12     Irving of whom we are proud.
13  1170                 I lived in the United States for 20
14     years.  Canadian interests and values and idioms don't
15     matter much there.  If you and I don't state our
16     Canadianness, let me assure you that nobody else will.
17  1171                 Canadian TV, CBC-TV, makes a media
18     statement of who we are.  It's not enough to say that
19     we are not American.  That doesn't really say much.  We
20     need to say that we are Canadian and I believe that
21     that statement will be even more important as we go
22     into the next century.
23  1172                 CBC radio though, as so many people
24     have said, is where the bang for the buck is, I
25     believe, in this country.  It gives us a national voice


 1     at a time when the trend is towards fractionalization. 
 2     It emphasizes both our common differences and our
 3     common concerns.  CBC radio is our friend.
 4  1173                 When we lose Clive Gilmour, Alan
 5     Maitland, Barbara Frum through death we mourn because
 6     these people have become part of the fabric of our
 7     lives.  When Peter Gzowski,  Vicki Gabereau, Max
 8     Ferguson, Sheila Rogers move from one time slot to the
 9     other, we feel disoriented.  We lose a friend.
10  1174                 I would add to thee comment of one
11     person at least, that many parents stay home during the
12     early months of their child's lives or longer to raise
13     them.  And if you move from a professional life to a
14     life within four walls, with children who speak in
15     monosyllables, then CBC becomes a lifeline to news and
16     ideas and arts and no other network provides this.
17  1175                 I would say that this had happened to
18     me.  "Ideas" and "As It Happens" I spent a summer in
19     the woods in northern New Brunswick and Lister Sinclair
20     became the evening visitor to whom I looked forward
21     most.
22  1176                 I would say that if there were no CBC
23     radio I would not listen to radio and I would listen to
24     my private collection of music a lot more.
25  1177                 Regional CBC is very important,


 1     particularly on this dear Island.  Moncton can't run
 2     our cancer clinics.  Saint John can't run our
 3     educational system and Halifax does not understand our
 4     local news.  We are a unique community, maybe small,
 5     but we are a unique, rich community, where local
 6     programming brings us local interest and challenges and
 7     informs us.
 8  1178                 About my telephone I have numbers
 9     which are important to me, of the fire department and
10     police and important friends.  I also have the number
11     for "Information Morning", "CBC Talk Back" and
12     "Maritime Noon" because when I use those numbers I can
13     become part of the conversation that is generally
14     denied to me -- not being in circles of influence and
15     power and politics -- I can join in the conversation on
16     public policy.
17  1179                 Some say our station here in
18     Charlottetown is small.  I would say it is, but bigger
19     is not better.  P.E.I. is a political entity and CBC
20     Charlottetown is essential.  As a friend reminded me
21     over lunch when we were discussing these hearings this
22     evening, if you think small doesn't make a difference,
23     try trying to sleep with a mosquito.
24                                                        1945
25  1180                 CBC is my friend.  Thank you.


 1     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 2  1181                 MR. STEWART:  I now invite Mr. Peter
 3     Baker to make his presentation.
 5  1182                 MR. BAKER:  Good evening.  I am
 6     absolutely delighted to be able to come here and say my
 7     piece about the CBC.  No one can underestimate the
 8     importance and power of the media in our world today,
 9     newspaper, radio, TV, film.  At times it appears the
10     media is what our lives are about.  Instead, the media
11     should be about our lives, culturally, emotionally,
12     informationally.
13  1183                 TV and film have the overwhelming
14     power of all media.  Used as a vehicle to sell
15     audiences to advertisers, but on a more subtle level
16     used as a tool to show us collectively how to act, what
17     is important and what is not.
18  1184                 TV and film are a powerful force in
19     creating a prevalent world culture.  Unfortunately, I
20     think we underestimate the usefulness and power of
21     radio.  I happen to be a big CBC radio fan.
22  1185                 For those who can't afford or perhaps
23     refuse to have TV and a VCR in their homes, radio is
24     the connection to the world beyond our village or
25     neighbourhood, a source of entertainment news and, most


 1     importantly, a way to stay in contact with our own
 2     culture.  Think of people worldwide who perhaps lack
 3     most of what we take for granted in the west, people
 4     who can barely feed themselves probably have access to
 5     a radio.
 6  1186                 I remember Radio Free Europe.  Tax
 7     funded public radio is an intelligent way to encourage
 8     free speech.  Without CBC free speech is compromised,
 9     not only in North America, but I think in the world.
10  1187                 There has been quite an erosion of
11     democracy in worthwhile dialogue.  I don't think there
12     is really any incentive for political leaders, either
13     in the U.S. or Canada, to promote free speech to
14     support public radio.  Political leaders tend to listen
15     to corporate lobbies.  There is really no incentive to
16     support free speech.
17  1188                 In the U.S. what do listeners get for
18     news coverage?  In a wealthy land where poverty,
19     inequality and an eroding standard of living are so
20     prevalent, what we got all last year is nothing more
21     than a sex scandal.  This sort of thing is what
22     powerful media corporations see as a way of capturing
23     audiences.  The important issues are completely
24     ignored.
25  1189                 To paraphrase a contributor to "Cross


 1     Country Checkup", I don't think North America is the
 2     world's largest trailer park.  I think it just looks
 3     that way because of private corporate media
 4     predominantly in the U.S., what they see as important.
 5  1190                 I actually came here from the U.S. in
 6     1971 to work on a farm.  I was impressed that a North
 7     American country actually had an intelligent leader. 
 8     At the time in the U.S. we had Gerald Ford.  I don't
 9     think this actually demonstrates my political
10     affiliation, but the Prime Minister at that time was an
11     intelligent man.
12  1191                 In the U.S. we do have public radio. 
13     We have national public radio, but if you listen
14     carefully to it it's so heavily supported by the
15     corporations I think that it's quite suspect. 
16     Actually, some corporations that support NPR in the
17     U.S. I never heard of until I listened to NPR.  So we
18     certainly have advertising there.
19  1192                 On CBC we have a lot of classical
20     music, on CBC Two.  I listen to CBC One also.  We have
21     very good jazz programming.  A jazz buff I know claims
22     that it's the best in North America, although it
23     doesn't cover a great amount of time.  I think at this
24     point in time classical music is almost radical because
25     so many of the commercial stations have gone strictly


 1     to rock.
 2  1193                 I am very happy about the news
 3     coverage on CBC.  You can't underestimate the
 4     importance of foreign correspondents who get to say
 5     their entire piece, rather than just contributing --
 6     just having their piece edited and getting sound bites.
 7  1194                 I am impressed with the quality of
 8     96.1 and 104.7, even with the labour problems, even
 9     with the cuts.  CBC should be praised for continuing to
10     provide good programming.
11  1195                 Those who would cut public
12     broadcasting funding, such as the CBC, I think cut free
13     speech.  I think that's pretty well it for my comments.
14  1196                 I just wanted to bring up a couple of
15     pieces I heard on the CBC news recently.  I wonder how
16     many U.S. citizens realize that their government is
17     being used by a large fruit exporter in their quest to
18     capture the entire world market in bringing a trade
19     action against European banana buyers who support
20     small, independent banana farmers?  I doubt very many
21     Americans know about this.  On the CBC we got a very
22     good report on this on "The World This Weekend".
23  1197                 Also, the situation that is going on
24     with the Olympic Association.  For instance, the
25     lottery problem they had here.  Media giants depend on


 1     the Olympics to promote their goods.  I don't think
 2     that making the reporting on problems with the Olympics
 3     is of big importance for the U.S. media companies which
 4     are giants and can pretty well do as they please.
 5  1198                 I want to thank the CRTC for holding
 6     these hearings, but I wouldn't know about them if I
 7     hadn't heard about it on the CBC.
 8  1199                 Thank you.
 9     --- Applause / Applaudissements
10                                                        1950
11  1200                 MR. STEWART:  I now invite
12     Mr. Richard Carson to make his presentation.
14  1201                 MR. CARSON:  Thank you.
15  1202                 I am an old, worn-out schoolteacher. 
16     I have been retired for five years and I don't speak
17     for anyone, except perhaps my wife.  She censored my
18     remarks, so, therefore, I guess she's probably in on
19     this too.
20  1203                 Some years ago my wife and I took a
21     leave of absence for our jobs and moved to The
22     Netherlands for a year.  The Netherlands are located
23     such that we had ready access to the broadcasting
24     systems of France and Germany, Belgium, Great Britain
25     and, of course, Holland.  After one year of comparing


 1     the radio and TV offerings of these countries, in terms
 2     of information broadcasting to the CBC, we longed for a
 3     return to Canada to get a balanced view of the
 4     happenings of the world.
 5  1204                 To cite one example, we saw a
 6     reference to Canada on only two occasions in an entire
 7     year from these five countries and a reference to the
 8     United States on not too many more occasions.
 9  1205                 Canadians need to live in another
10     country for a while to appreciate what we have here. 
11     You don't know how good you have got it.  You should
12     appreciate it.
13  1206                 We felt, and we still feel, that the
14     CBC is far superior in its offerings on radio and TV to
15     any other countries we were exposed to.
16  1207                 The mandate of the CBC is, and I
17     think properly so, to bring Canada to Canadians.  We
18     are inundated with the print and broadcast media of
19     other countries, especially the United States.  If we
20     are to protect and enhance that culture which is
21     Canadians and it is, I feel, superior to other
22     cultures, please excuse my arrogance, but I am a
23     Canadian and I'm proud of it, then we must work hard at
24     it and be prepared to put our money where our mouths
25     are.


 1  1208                 Needless to say, I am a strong
 2     defender of people like Sheila Copps and her attempts
 3     to defend our print media against present attacks from
 4     our neighbour to the south.
 5  1209                 We are such a large country and so
 6     diverse in our cultures that we cannot hope to
 7     appreciate this land of ours without some help and that
 8     has to be the role of a national broadcaster, the role
 9     of the CBC.
10  1210                 Almost every country has its own
11     national broadcasting system controlled by its own
12     government, either directly or indirectly, as we have
13     in this country, and that's the way it should be.
14  1211                 The push from some quarters to
15     privatize, if successful, would eventually allow the
16     CBC to fall into the hands of commercial interests --
17     commercial interests that may be controlled from
18     outside the country.  With all the risks for
19     interference from politicians and Parliament, it is far
20     preferable to the commercial alternative, since with
21     political control at least once every four years we
22     have got a chance to choose our dictators.  No such
23     chance exists if the CBC is forced to exist through
24     advertising dollars from General Motors or Nestlé or
25     Cavendish Farms.


 1  1212                 And then, with privatization wouldn't
 2     it be nice, the cultural wasteland that is the offering
 3     of the private broadcaster would be all-encompassing
 4     and then my wife and I will immigrate to the EEC, go
 5     back to Holland maybe.
 6  1213                 Every day the radio in our house goes
 7     on tuned to the CBC at seven o'clock, a.m.  It goes off
 8     around midnight.  Throughout the day we alternate
 9     between Radio One and Radio Two.  We take a break from
10     time to time to watch our favourite TV shows, like
11     "Marketplace", "On The Road Again", "Venture", "The
12     Fifth Estate", "This House Has 22 Minutes", "The Nature
13     of Things" and, of course, the news broadcasts at six
14     o'clock and at 10:00.  We watch almost no TV that does
15     not originate in this country.
16  1214                 We have nothing against "The Fresh
17     Prince of Bel Air" or "Jeopardy", but we just find them
18     dreadful entertainment and never watch them for that
19     reason.  Thank God for the "National" and the "National
20     Update" and the local news shows.  And thank God for
21     the three hours of local radio programming that goes on
22     from 6:00 to 9:00 every morning and for "Radio Noon"
23     and for "As It Happens" and "The Met on Saturday
24     Afternoon" "The Hum Line" and "Basic Black".  What else
25     can I say?


 1  1215                 This kind of programming must be
 2     encouraged.  The budget for the CBC must be greatly
 3     increased.  We now have a federal budgetary surplus in
 4     this country and if we are really serious about keeping
 5     this country together, I can't think of a better way to
 6     spend it than on an enhanced CBC.
 7  1216                 The budget cuts the CBC has had to
 8     endure in the past few years must stop and these monies
 9     reinstated.  A truly unique, truly Canadian and truly
10     valuable institution has been slowly dribbling away and
11     it's a disgrace.  I think it is terrible that the
12     morning shows have to be repeated in the evening, I
13     presume because of the lack of money to create new
14     shows.  So, it's time to start putting pressure on our
15     Members of Parliament to properly support the CBC.
16  1217                 The CBC does far more to make this
17     country available to its citizens than any other agency
18     and it must be supported.  Additional programs should
19     be created locally and broadcast nationally and the
20     monies must be made available to do this.
21  1218                 The CBC is our window to the nation,
22     to the world.  Let's get it back on track.
23  1219                 You probably imagine by now that I am
24     a fan of the CBC.  You had better believe it.  If it
25     disappears -- well, I suppose there is still Radio


 1     Natavan(ph), there's Deutchevela(ph), there is the BBC
 2     and there are some other places I suppose I could go. 
 3     There's nowhere else.
 4  1220                 Anyhow, thank you very much for 
 5     listening to my ravings.  The chance to talk to you
 6     folk from away is very much appreciated.
 7     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 8  1221                 THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
 9     Thank you, Mr. Carson.
10  1222                 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I'm glad you
11     told us in the end where you stood.  I had you down as
12     undecided.
13                                                        2000
14  1223                 MR. STEWART:  I now invite
15     Mr. Bernard Callaghan to make his presentation.
17  1224                 MR. CALLAGHAN:  Good evening,
18     friends.  As you have heard, my name is Bernard
19     Callaghan and I am here to represent a 12-person Island
20     writers group called The Writers Inn Group or TWIG for
21     short.
22  1225                 We have been meeting for the last
23     three years or so, reading manuscripts of fiction,
24     poetry and drama.  We are very proud to say that back
25     in November 1998 we published our first book, "The Twig


 1     Anthology" which has been well received by Islanders.
 2  1226                 I wish to start my 10-minute
 3     presentation by reading a letter of mine which appeared
 4     in CBC's Radio Guide, January 1987, shortly after a
 5     November 1986 radio special that celebrated the 50th
 6     anniversary of CBC radio.
 7                            "Dear Sirs:  I commend you for
 8                            your November collectors edition
 9                            which I quickly bought.  My wife
10                            and I had radios on in the
11                            bedroom, the bathroom, in the
12                            living room.  I even took a
13                            radio outside so I could hear it
14                            as my chainsaw idled.  I echo
15                            Peter Gzowski's affirmation that
16                            CBC radio is the best in the
17                            world.  I am truly proud of both
18                            CBC radio and TV.  Keep up the
19                            good work.  I'm still dipping
20                            into your nostalgic treasury of
21                            CBC stars and programming."  (As
22                            read)
23  1227                 That was 1987.  Today is 1999, after
24     severe cutbacks and downsizing at the CBC.  TWIG gladly
25     joins the fight to keep the CBC operating at full


 1     capacity.
 2  1228                 Using your guide questions from a
 3     CRTC news release of December 1998, I wish to present
 4     TWIG's input to help keep the CBC alive now and into
 5     the new millennium.
 6  1229                 I shall first look at how the CBC is
 7     fulfilling its role as a national public broadcaster. 
 8     Until CBC opened a TV outlet in 1971 and a radio outlet
 9     in 1977 on Prince Edward Island, I did feel that the
10     CBC's mandate was unfulfilled.  I believe P.E.I. was
11     the only province without a CBC station at that time.
12  1230                 It is these local CBC stations, like
13     CBC Charlottetown, that fully actualize the CBC mandate
14     which, Ross Ianman(ph) in the Canadian Encyclopedia
15     says is:
16                            "To provide Canadians with a
17                            broad range of high quality
18                            indigenous information and
19                            entertainment programs, rather
20                            than simply cater to the
21                            interest of particular groups."
22                            (As read)
23  1231                 Each CBC provincial outlet through
24     its programming cements together more the Canadian
25     mosaic made up of different nationalities, races,


 1     religions and political beliefs.
 2  1232                 Keeping CBC stations in all provinces
 3     helps the CBC to fulfil its national mandate.  The
 4     national and regional roles of the CBC should interact
 5     and strengthen one another.  The CBC must be ready for
 6     the millennium in which our world will become even more
 7     Marshall McLuhan's "Global Village".
 8  1233                 I realize the CBC is already using
 9     technology like the Internet to keep abreast of
10     information technology, a must these days.  I am not a
11     technology basher, but I also think that technology is
12     meant to serve people, not people technology, as
13     happens when management claims it can save more money
14     by automating at the cost of jobs.
15  1234                 I have a hunch this substitution is
16     already present in large corporations, banks and maybe
17     the CBC.
18  1235                 I shall now consider how well the CBC
19     serves us regionally.  As far as the impact of CBC
20     regionally, I can speak only as a maritimer and as an
21     Islander.  We do have some excellent programming coming
22     out of cities like Halifax.  I refer to programs like
23     "Maritime Noon" with Kostas Salibrasos.
24  1236                 When I come down from my den after a
25     morning's writing, I usually turn on "Maritime Noon"


 1     because it is both informative and entertaining.  I am
 2     sure that TWIG because of the strike misses the
 3     pleasant tones of Wayne Collins and Karen Mair on
 4     "Island Morning".  Also, where would the Easter Seal
 5     Telethon be without CBC's Roger Younker, Sheryl MacKay
 6     and Kevin "Boomer" Gallant.
 7  1237                 CBC's Matt Rainnie and Mitch Cormier
 8     have interviewed TWIG members on "Main Street" at
 9     various occasions.
10  1238                 I can now ask where would the arts on
11     the Island be without programs like "Island Morning"
12     and "Main Street" to promote them?  Heaven forbid that
13     all CBC programs should come out of one centre like
14     Halifax.  We would be culturally impoverished.
15  1239                 I come to my next consideration,
16     should CBC radio and TV programming be any different
17     from other Canadian networks?  I believe because CBC is
18     closer to the heartbeat of Canada that its programming
19     has to be different.  Over the decades what other radio
20     network could have contributed to the flowering of
21     radio dramatists like Andrew Allen?
22  1240                 Canadian radio drama needed geniuses
23     like Allen who have left a distinctive mark in the
24     history of radio drama which no other network has put
25     its heart and soul into like the CBC.


 1  1241                 I must stay with CBC radio drama for
 2     a moment.  In the summer of 1994 I read in the Globe an
 3     excellent piece on the history of CBC radio drama, but
 4     what struck me was the picture of "Street Legal" stars
 5     E. David Johnson and Julie Connor reading before a CBC
 6     microphone their parts in a dramatization of Michael
 7     Ondaatje's novel "In The Skin of the Lion".  What a
 8     powerful affirmation of CBC radio, two blockbuster TV
 9     stars appearing in a radio drama.
10  1242                 Finally, I come to the special role
11     CBC should play in the presentation of Canadian
12     programming.  First, I wish to quote from one of
13     Canada's most distinguished writers, Robertson Davies,
14     who in his essay titled "Literature in a Country With
15     an Anthology" writes about Canadian distinctive
16     culture -- Canada's distinctive culture.
17  1243                 Culture is an ambience, a part of the
18     air we breathe.  That special ozone is now to be
19     breathed in Canada because it arises from the land
20     itself, not a few acres of snow, but a country of
21     immensely -- the very beauty of landscape and of
22     season, including our lovely and dangerous winters.
23  1244                 I truly hold that the special role
24     the CBC is playing, and hopefully will continue to
25     play, is to give voice to Canadian culture which, as


 1     Robertson Davies said, arises from the land.  What does
 2     he mean by this?  To answer, I refer to Canadian
 3     writers like Margaret Atwood in "Surfacing", Margaret
 4     Lawrence in "The Stone Angel" and Philippe Panneton in
 5     "Trente Arpents", "Thirty Acres".  In all of these
 6     novels the land plays an integral role, even to
 7     becoming personified into an omnipotent character or
 8     forest as in "Thirty Acres".
 9  1245                 Our culture arises through the
10     landscape imagery of these novels.  For example,
11     Panneton, through landscape imagery conveys the
12     narrowness of a farmer Eucharist Moissant on his 30
13     acres.  The novel at least is partly about the conflict
14     between urban and rural culture.
15  1246                 Because of its indigenous mandate, I
16     submit that CBC best gives a voice to our culture
17     arising from our land.
18  1247                 In my letter, which I just read, I
19     mentioned Peter Gzowski, best known of course for
20     "Morningside".  I can think of no other CBC broadcaster
21     who has so superbly given voice to the land than Peter
22     Gzowski.  In fact, "Morningside" in its early years, I
23     believe was called "This Country in the Morning".  I
24     like the latter name because it suggests what the
25     broadcaster is about in voicing our national culture.


 1  1248                 To conclude, representing TWIG, I
 2     feel honoured to have spoken in support for the CBC. 
 3     Let us do all we can to strengthen CBC now and into the
 4     new millennium.
 5  1249                 Thank you.
 6     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 7  1250                 THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
 8     Thank you.
 9                                                        2010
10  1251                 MR. STEWART:  The next speaker is
11     described on the list as a representative of TWIG, but
12     if there is such a person -- okay.
13  1252                 I now call upon Mr. Reg Pendergast to
14     make his presentation.
16  1253                 MR. PENDERGAST:  Good evening
17     everyone, representatives of the CRTC.
18  1254                 I guess I could call myself a
19     citizen, a retired teacher.  I was going to say does
20     this room remind you of an igloo?
21     --- Laughter / Rires
22  1255                 MR. PENDERGAST:  That's part of our
23     culture too.
24  1256                 Also, the references to the
25     repetition or programs reminds me of the story about


 1     the fellow who visited the prison.  For recreation they
 2     had a joke book and they had them all numbered, so
 3     maybe after another few days or so the CBC people will
 4     just say a number and we will think of the program. 
 5     They won't have to put it on at all.
 6  1257                 Anyway, I don't have any particular
 7     axes to  grind.  I guess I could say maybe I have a
 8     whole lot of axes to grind.  Anyway, if I was asked to
 9     rate the CBC and I say SRC also, Radio-Canada, and they
10     use that interchangeably, on a scale of very
11     satisfactory, satisfactory or not satisfactory, I would
12     probably all of the above.  I would like to compare my
13     attitude to the Corporation or the Corporation's as
14     that of a proud parent.
15  1258                 I wasn't around in 1932, but R.B.
16     Bennett did one right thing at least.  He may still be
17     beaten by that stopped clock -- he's right twice a day. 
18     Like a parent who recognizes a child's shortcomings, I
19     am still proud of my CBC/SRC and like many parents, at
20     times I feel inadequate when faced with the technical
21     facility, the audio and visual capabilities of my
22     protege.  But I may also be disappointed or even
23     chagrined when achievements do not measure up to
24     expectations.
25  1259                 These disappointments occur in topics


 1     like Canadian unity, bilingualism, western development
 2     and fawning over the redundant and anachronistic
 3     monarchy.  That's the only time I ever turn off the
 4     radio or TV, or change channels.
 5  1260                 For example, what has our CBC/SRC
 6     done lately about the refusal to recognize the civil
 7     rights of French-language parents in Summerside and
 8     West Prince, P.E.I.?  Why hasn't the provincial
 9     government been out in lavender for its manipulation of
10     the justice system to try to wear down proponents of
11     French-language education?
12  1261                 This leads to the question of the
13     role of the CBC/SRC as a national broadcaster.  The
14     answer begins with another question.  Should CBC/SRC
15     lead or merely react, report and reflect?  I believe
16     that CBC/SRC should lead the way as a propaganda
17     instrument to promote generally accepted national
18     causes.
19  1262                 The most obvious one is Canadian
20     unity, not the syrupy U.S. type, although we have maple
21     syrup too, but a realistic approach to the concept that
22     if Canada is going to survive as a unified whole, it
23     must establish and promote a number of priorities.
24  1263                 Number one, that Canada is
25     historically and contemporaneously a bicultural,


 1     bilingual nation state of two main nations, whose
 2     dependents are spread throughout Canada and their main
 3     concentrations in Quebec and Ontario, that is the
 4     French and British.
 5  1264                 That these nations must respect both
 6     the rights and cultural traits of Canada's aboriginal
 7     peoples.
 8  1265                 Three, that other cultures, so-called
 9     multiculturals, exist and contribute to the diversity
10     of our cultural mosaic, and should maintain cultural
11     and language traditions, while operating within one or
12     both of the official languages.
13  1266                 Number four, that if Canada is to
14     develop a complete set of sovereign traditions, it must
15     cut the straggling strings of the old British umbilical
16     cord, the monarchy, which is not only frayed, but
17     starting to stink.
18  1267                 We must then develop our own
19     executive branch, a more balanced legislative branch
20     with an elected, effective and equalibrial Senate --
21     not equal, but equalibrial and balanced throughout the
22     regions.
23  1268                 I conclude this role question with
24     another question.  If the CBC/SRC doesn't play the boy
25     in the Emperor's New Clothes, who is?  Can the national


 1     broadcaster rise above the ad hockery and petty
 2     politics that has characterized our politicians, both
 3     federal and provincial?  Are we capable of a tennis
 4     court oath?
 5  1269                 The second question of regional
 6     coverage is less clear, again a balancing act.  I
 7     believe that much has been done and some things
 8     attempted.  For example, the CBC/SRC sponsored P.E.I.
 9     Folk Story Festival in 1998, a good attempt but
10     hampered by the emphasis on the international ahead of
11     the local.
12  1270                 The exposition of local folklore had
13     not even reached the tip of the iceberg stage yet.  It
14     was just a growler.  The result was that -- you might
15     have to be from Newfoundland to understand a growler. 
16     The result was that at least two published collectors
17     and storytellers were not even invited to participate
18     at first.  Were the people sponsoring, the CBC I guess
19     you could say, trying to fly before they could walk?
20  1271                 Another problem of regionality is
21     that the SRC, Radio-Canada, tends to be completely 
22     regional because the national French language coverage
23     tends to be exclusively Québécois.  By the way, I wrote
24     this before I heard about what was said in Moncton last
25     night.  Has this contributed to the ghetto  mentality


 1     of the Quebec separatists who are prepared to write off
 2     millions of francophones outside of Quebec, while they
 3     continue their narcissistic navel gazing?
 4  1272                 How can the media report with a
 5     straight face, for example, the farcical statement of
 6     the Premier of Quebec that he would protect francos
 7     outside of Quebec from the backlash after separation? 
 8     Why doesn't he help them now.
 9  1273                 The third question was:  How should
10     CBC be different, CBC/SRC?  That has been partially
11     answered I suppose in what I have said already, but to
12     take a tactful tact, a difference I would like to see
13     in the Corporations would be doing more to search out
14     and display new or newly discovered music, literature
15     and visual arts, for example, on TV, visual.
16  1274                 It seems sometimes as if CBC/SRC is
17     reacting rather than leading.  For example, after
18     Céline Dion makes it big in the U.S. we get quadruple
19     doses of her on the Juno Awards.  Are there no other
20     French Canadian artists inside or outside Quebec?  How
21     about a song from Lynn Lemay, is it?
22  1275                 What about youth?  We all know the
23     cliche about the future.  I don't know if this is
24     regional or not, but it applies everywhere I guess.  Is
25     our national broadcaster doing enough to encourage


 1     youth participation?  What happened to "Reach For The
 2     Top" for example?  Should CBC/SRC lead the youth
 3     business to the specialized interest groups like
 4     political parties, churches, service clubs, artistic
 5     groups and sports organizations?
 6  1276                 In sports, for example, why not
 7     promote a Canadian division of the NHL or a truly
 8     amateur Olympics and let them have a professional one
 9     too.  However, there is one idea that CBC/SRC could 
10     borrow from American public broadcasting or whatever it
11     is called, PBS, and that is some kind of fundraising
12     scheme for listeners and lookers which would be the
13     icing on the cake for program development.  How about a
14     lotto, a CBC/SRC.
15  1277                 Finally, the question of a special
16     role for CBC/SRC in Canadian broadcasting.
17  1278                 One of the problems I have observed
18     as a follower of my radio and TV network is that of
19     Canadian content.  But it's not the kind of Canadian
20     content that you, as the people, usually think of.  The
21     problem is a symptom of our partial lack of Canadian
22     identity.  The people who conduct and produce programs
23     of an otherwise informative and entertaining nature
24     should be more aware of and use Canadian examples in
25     their references in comparison that was referred to


 1     earlier.
 2  1279                 For example, recently a commentator
 3     referred to the "James Gang" without identifying them
 4     as where they were located.  Were they American, the
 5     "James Gang"?  You know, like, we're just automatically
 6     supposed to understand that.
 7  1280                 Why aren't they familiar with our
 8     Canadian wild west gangs, like the MacLean Brothers(ph)
 9     in B.C.?  One of the three brothers -- the three
10     brothers were hung and one of them was only 15 when he
11     was hung.  So that's pretty sensational, isn't it?
12  1281                 This inability to resist or avoid the
13     inroads of American pop culture is partly a result of
14     the non-existence of graduate programs in Canadian
15     history at Canadian universities before 1967.  And I
16     know that from direct experience, because I was in one
17     of the first programs that was put on at Carleton
18     University, "Canadian Studies" it was called, but it
19     was mainly Canadian history.
20  1282                 MR. STEWART:  Excuse me, sir, you
21     have reached --
22  1283                 MR. PENDERGAST:  Just a short minute?
23  1284                 The trickle down into undergraduate
24     programs was therefore more like Chinese, or should I
25     say Newfoundland, water torture.


 1  1285                 The question is then begged:  How
 2     much Canadian history is required for media trainees? 
 3     Are journalism courses mostly offered now at Community
 4     Colleges have just a veneer of liberal arts.  Do media
 5     people need a crash course in Canadian history and
 6     sociology?
 7  1286                 I would like to see the CBC then do a
 8     survey of that -- of that type of thing.  I do not see
 9     this as a thought control à la Orwell -- excuse me,
10     another non-Canadian reference.  It's a simple
11     prerequisite.
12  1287                 Do journalists ask the hard questions
13     and do the obscure research.
14  1288                 Okay.  There's a little bit left
15     there, but I will be passing it in anyway, because I
16     would like you to have a copy, so I could leave a copy
17     with you.
18  1289                 So there are many, you know,
19     examples, but generally the -- my attitude is still
20     quite positive.  Like, I'm not undecided; I'm quite --
21     in spite of some of the weaknesses, I'm very much in
22     favour of the CBC and it's improvement.
23  1290                 Thank you.
24  1291                 THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
25     Thank you very much.


 1  1292                 Yes, if you could leave a copy with
 2     us, certainly with Mr. Rodger.
 3                                                        2030
 4  1293                 I would propose ten minutes, maybe we
 5     can get some hot coffee and we will pursue.
 6     --- Recess at 2020 / Suspension à 2020
 7     --- Technical difficulties / Problèmes techniques
 9  1294                 DR. MacQUARRIE:  -- CBC Two is a
10     constant companion at home and in my car.  And I marvel
11     at what a few talented and perhaps mildly eccentric
12     people can do.  Bill Richardson, Danny Frankelman(ph),
13     Joergen Goethe, Sheila Rogers, many others who have
14     been mentioned here.
15  1295                 A good record library, people like
16     that and you have excellent programming.  To me, these
17     are worthy successors to the Max Fergusons and Clive
18     Gilmours and please, CBC, nourish these people.  Keep
19     this going.  National programming on radio is working
20     well from my perspective, providing real alternatives
21     within the two units.
22  1296                 Local programming, I think has now
23     been cut to the point where it's practically bled to
24     death.  It used to be good; it may be good again in the
25     future.  In the meantime, I don't listen to it much.


 1  1297                 On the other hand, I don't have too
 2     much interest in national programming on CBC
 3     Television.  And I would include "The National" in
 4     that.
 5  1298                 Many of the programs are boring.  I
 6     have no particular advocacy here for advertising, but
 7     in many cases the advertisements are better than the
 8     programs.  And at the worst of times, these programs
 9     would make a saint swear.
10  1299                 It's in television, I think that the
11     role of local and regional broadcasting becomes
12     important and I single out our own Charlottetown
13     program "Compass", which has been mentioned here
14     several times.  This works because the people involved
15     are not only good and accurate journalists, their lives
16     are here.  They know the Island and they know where the
17     skeletons are buried.
18  1300                 In regional programming, "Land and
19     Sea" is just excellent, providing, when CBC deigns to
20     allow it airtime, a fine insight into resource and
21     environmental affairs.  Again, I marvel at what a few
22     dedicated people can do on a very limited budget and
23     with, I gather, the threat of total extinction hanging
24     over them all the time.  This excellent program is
25     literally alone in dealing in-depth with these


 1     important rural issues in our region.
 2  1301                 And such regional programming allows
 3     our Atlantic area to talk to other regions on matters
 4     of mutual concern, enough to build a small bridge
 5     across the massive Canadian communication gap.
 6  1302                 I thus believe that the kind of
 7     television programming that I want depends upon people
 8     who know the region well, who make their lives here and
 9     who have the courage and sensitivity to explore our
10     strengths and weaknesses, joys and concerns.
11  1303                 I will leave the centralization,
12     globalization to others and I think I can only add one
13     more comment.
14  1304                 If you want to hear a good debate on
15     the Monarchy, as my friend read, guess where it's going
16     to be -- on CBC, coming up.
17  1305                 Thank you.
18  1306                 THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
19     Thank you very much.
20                                                        2034
21  1307                 MR. STEWART:  Now I invite Ms Jean
22     Doherty to make her presentation.
23  1308                 Is Ms Doherty in the room?  No?
24  1309                 Therefore I invite Mr. Ron Irving to
25     make his presentation.


 2  1310                 MR. IRVING:  Thank you.  And I want
 3     to thank the Commissioners for coming to Charlottetown.
 4  1311                 I sit here with a burning question: 
 5     Can you do anything to save the CBC?  If you can, I
 6     implore you to do it.
 7  1312                 You made the point earlier today,
 8     Madam Chair that you, the CRTC, do not allocate CBC's
 9     budget or appoint its Board of Directors.  But you
10     monitor its performance and you grant its licence. 
11     Does that mean that you could tell the government that
12     the severity of its cuts has resulted in an inability
13     on the part of CBC to fulfil its national and regional
14     mandate?  And if you did, would the government respond?
15  1313                 We have watched the dissemination of
16     this vital public service over the last few years and
17     our letters to MPs don't seem to have helped much.
18  1314                 Many of the speakers today have
19     recounted what the CBC has meant to them personally,
20     and I could certainly do that, but I won't.  It's
21     enough to tell you that I care about the CBC and I care
22     passionately.
23  1315                 My appreciation of just how exemplary
24     a public broadcasting system is was emphatically
25     brought home to me during the five years of my working


 1     career in the United States.  Permit me to share some
 2     of my concerns.
 3  1316                 First and foremost, protection for
 4     regional service.  A lot of echoes here, aren't there?
 5  1317                 We have had an example of how
 6     diminished this aspect of our lives has become with the
 7     current strike.  The programming that is so much a part
 8     of the daily lives of many of us here is gone.  The
 9     realization that this could become permanent is
10     frightening.
11  1318                 We came close to that at the time of
12     the massive cuts and layoffs.  If this city had not
13     been a provincial capital, we would probably have
14     suffered with the loss that a number of other Canadian
15     cities did.
16  1319                 Those of you who live in big cities
17     probably can't appreciate the vital role that CBC plays
18     in disseminating local news and information and how
19     important it is to the local cultural scene.  Well, not
20     after today you can't not know that.
21  1320                 We have lost personnel, but the ones
22     who are left and who are carrying increased workloads
23     are doing a remarkable job.  I regret that you haven't
24     been able to sample their efforts even briefly during
25     your time here.  Our morning and late afternoon radio


 1     programs, as well as our supper hour TV show "Compass",
 2     are more than just reporters of events, they're
 3     institutions.  A part of the fabric of our lives.
 4  1321                 It has been painful to watch the
 5     demoralizing atmosphere of uncertainty in which the
 6     teams of people who make these programs have to work. 
 7     I have watched the erosion of our service over the
 8     years from the loss of our noontime radio program, late
 9     night TV news, the Premier mentioned them specifically
10     earlier, and the total loss of local service on
11     weekends.  The latter deprivation is truly unfortunate.
12  1322                 We realize that the situation exists
13     because the resources are not there to make weekend
14     programming possible.  The same can be said of coverage
15     of events that happen after regular business hours,
16     although this is more true of television.  We want to
17     see a recommitment to local programming, which means
18     realistic budgets and staff.
19  1323                 In my opinion, CBC National Radio is
20     outstanding.  I listen to both CBC One and CBC Two with
21     the occasional regret that I can't listen to both at
22     the same time.
23  1324                 I have cable television, although not
24     the myriad channels that are now available.  On
25     television one watches shows rather than networks, but


 1     I find more shows of interest on CBC than anywhere
 2     else.  Primarily, I suppose, because of their Canadian
 3     focus, but also because of their quality.
 4  1325                 If we're at home, we never miss
 5     "Compass", our supper hour show.  If we did, we would
 6     feel out of touch with our community and our province.
 7  1326                 I have read of proposals for a new
 8     youth-oriented network for CBC.  I believe they have
 9     the ability to produce quality programs for such a
10     network, programs such as "Street Sense", but it begs
11     the question:  Where will the funds come from?
12  1327                 It's regrettable, also, that the
13     requirements of independent journalism so often results
14     in unhappy and sometimes vengeful politicians.  This
15     tension has existed between the CBC and politicians for
16     as long as I can remember.  But it's only in recent
17     times that we see the corporation's very existence
18     threatened by those who control its Parliamentary
19     allocations.  There are cries for a more business-like
20     approach, i.e. for privatization.  No wonder CBC TV
21     can't come near to attaining its long-held goal of
22     commercial free prime time Canadian content
23     programming.
24  1328                 I would agree with those who say
25     there's too much sports programming on CBC TV,


 1     particularly in the spring when the constantly
 2     expanding NHL holds playoffs that take over a month to
 3     complete and they play havoc with normal schedules. 
 4     But all of those games earn the money that the
 5     corporation needs to keep afloat.
 6  1329                 Public broadcasting is not a
 7     business, it's a public service and this vast country
 8     of ours needs public broadcasting.
 9  1330                 Thank you.
10     --- Applause / Applaudissements
11  1331                 THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
12     Thank you very much.
13                                                        2041
14  1332                 MR. STEWART:  I now invite Mr. Ken
15     Williams to make his presentation.
17  1333                 MR. WILLIAMS:  Madam Bertrand, Mr.
18     Langford, Members of the Commission, fellow presenters,
19     ladies and gentlemen.
20  1334                 Je m'appelle Ken Williams.  For the
21     translators, that's the only French I know.
22  1335                 First of all, Mr. Langford, I want to
23     thank you for your comment to Mr. Broderick when you
24     rebutted his fact that maybe there was a hidden agenda. 
25     I do not believe that the CRTC has a hidden agenda; I


 1     do, however, believe the government has one.
 2  1336                 But may I first thank you for
 3     allowing me to make this presentation tonight.  I find
 4     it an honour and a privilege to have this opportunity
 5     to express my views in support of what I believe is one
 6     of Canada's most influential institutions.
 7  1337                 It has been nearly 30 years since I
 8     appeared before the Commission.  And if that time line
 9     stays the same, this will more than likely be my last
10     opportunity so I want to make it a good one.
11  1338                 The CRTC has an awesome
12     responsibility as the regulator of Canada's broadcast
13     industry.  In your hands you have the power to license
14     a broadcaster or remove that licence.  For the private
15     sector, the effects of that decision are different than
16     that for the public sector.  We are, however, here
17     tonight to discuss the latter and more important to
18     decide its future.
19  1339                 To put it bluntly, Canada needs the
20     CBC.  We need to turn the CBC on.  The CBC is to
21     broadcasting as our maple leaf is to our flag. It's one
22     of the symbols that helps hold this great country of
23     ours together.
24  1340                 As an example of that, I could
25     mention the many programs which allow us to see what


 1     the other part of the country is doing and what trouble
 2     it is getting into.  But for me the essence of the CBC
 3     was felt on this one occasion.
 4  1341                 One evening I was watching "Venture". 
 5     At that time, Robert Sculley was the host.  During a
 6     commercial break, I did the male thing and started
 7     channel surfing.  And to my surprise, I saw Robert
 8     Sculley again, but on the French-language CBC.  I
 9     wasn't aware he was bilingual, but I remember
10     commenting, "That, to me, represents what the CBC is
11     all about".
12  1342                 Why is this example important?  I'm
13     proud that I have been in every province and the two
14     territories and I have listened and watched the CBC
15     everywhere I have been.  It was a little confusing in
16     Newfoundland, however, because of the half-hour
17     difference.  But when you're on your honeymoon, who
18     cares?
19  1343                 I have lived in five provinces,
20     Prince Edward Island being the fifth.  I was born and
21     raised in Quebec and I'm ashamed to say I'm not
22     bilingual.  I have lived in Toronto, not that that's a
23     big deal.  I have also had the privilege of living on
24     an Indian reserve in Saskatchewan and know what it's
25     like to experience 24 hours of daylight in the


 1     Northwest Territories.
 2  1344                 Everywhere I have been, the CBC
 3     reflected the local culture, something private
 4     broadcasters do not do.  Canada is a mosaic of
 5     different cultures, and it's important that they are
 6     maintained and reflected in our public broadcaster.
 7  1345                 You are asking Canadians for their
 8     opinions of the CBC's role, the programming it offers
 9     and the direction it should take in the coming years,
10     both at the national and regional levels.  And should
11     the public broadcaster fulfil its role in a different
12     manner than it has in the past?
13  1346                 First of all, it is my belief that
14     the CBC is different.  And it is that difference that
15     makes it unique among broadcasters.  No other
16     broadcaster brings you the "Arts Report", "C'est La
17     Vie", "Quirks and Quarks", "The House", "As It
18     Happens", and we have heard also of "Basic Black".  I
19     bring that up because I think I'm the only person in
20     Prince Edward Island that has a "Basic Black" t-shirt.
21  1347                 These programs are now available on
22     the Internet to all schools in Canada, and what a
23     disaster it would be if that service was taken away
24     from our students.  Despite my white hair I have a
25     seven-year old son and he wakes up to the CBC every


 1     morning, and what I like about it is that it engages
 2     him right away and he starts discussing the things that
 3     are happening in the world.
 4  1348                 The CBC is also unmatched in its
 5     regional programming across our country.  I say that
 6     with much enthusiasm because I have experienced it
 7     first hand in all of our major cities and in much of
 8     rural Canada.
 9  1349                 The quality of its journalism exceeds
10     that of most, if not all, of the private broadcasters. 
11     We see that in both radio and television.  The CBC
12     dares to wear new Canadian programs and challenges
13     Canadians to take stock of what we can do, who we are
14     and be proud of it, and at the same time, laugh at
15     ourselves.
16  1350                 Americanization of our culture is a
17     real threat and one of our greatest defences against it
18     is the CBC.  Would we have heard of the late Alan
19     Maitland if it wasn't for the CBC?  And what about Max
20     Ferguson, Stuart MacLean, Peter Gzowski and of course,
21     who can forget Barbara Frum, and dare I mention Rex
22     Murphy?
23  1351                 The CBC is the unifying voice of all
24     Canadians.  Unfortunately, the CBC is not fulfilling
25     its role as the national or regional broadcaster,


 1     through no fault of its own.  Budget cutbacks have
 2     forced the CBC to minimize services and cut others.
 3  1352                 Here we have an award-winning
 4     institution and yet the government treats it as a
 5     second class citizen which is trying to live up to its
 6     responsibility and yet is frustrated in the attempt. 
 7     Although its been said that Federal Heritage Minister
 8     Sheila Copps is sympathetic to the CBC, her lack of
 9     support for it during the strike would make one think
10     that the government has a hidden agenda for the CBC.  I
11     hope I am wrong.
12  1353                 The Heritage Minister said last
13     weekend that she thinks the challenge is for management
14     and the union to get together and come up with a
15     compromise before we end up with a television
16     black-out.  What I would like to know is, how can the
17     two sides come up with a compromise when one side is
18     being strangled by its master.
19  1354                 Maybe the question to the public
20     should have been:  How do you think the Federal
21     Government can help the CBC fulfil its role so it can
22     maintain its position as the national broadcaster?
23  1355                 Lawrence Martin, a Southam news
24     writer concluded an article on the CBC recently with
25     the following:


 1                            "Since the network has been
 2                            under seige since the Mulroney
 3                            stewardship, since it has been
 4                            everybody's favourite whipping
 5                            boy, since it has paid penance
 6                            for its proliferate ways, is it
 7                            not time now to bury the
 8                            hatchet?"
 9  1356                 I believe the CBC should fulfil its
10     role in the same manner as it has in the past.  Many of
11     us here probably remember when CBC Television first
12     came on the air and how it was the pioneer of
13     television broadcasting in Canada.  We remember
14     individuals like Dick McDougall and Percy Saltzman and
15     programs such as the "Plouffe Family" and "The Don
16     Messer Show".  But we can't live in the past; but we
17     can go a long way in bringing back the enthusiasm and
18     the spirit that made the CBC the great institution it
19     is today.
20  1357                 Using modern technology and a new
21     sense of purpose, the CBC will not only fulfil its
22     mandate, but exceed it to the benefit of all Canadians. 
23     The CBC has a very important role that is not driven by
24     pure commercial interests.  It's Canada's link.  It's a
25     basic link to the community, an important link to the


 1     province and a central link to national unity.
 2  1358                 Some years ago the railway left
 3     Prince Edward Island and shortly after that the tracks
 4     were removed.  There's very little, if any, trace of
 5     the railways present on the Island now.  It didn't have
 6     much impact on the economy because there were other
 7     methods of transportation that filled the gap left by
 8     the trains.  Unfortunately, the CBC on the Island may
 9     be like the trains, but with one important exception,
10     there is no other facility that can or would be willing
11     to take its place.
12  1359                 In your press release, you say the
13     CRTC hopes to hear from Canadians on the CBC's role. 
14     As a person who wears his emotions of his country on
15     his sleeve, it is my hope that the CRTC applies
16     pressure on the Federal Government to improve its
17     commitment to the CBC.
18  1360                 I'm proud to be Canadian and I'm
19     equally proud to be a CBC viewer and listener.  Many
20     times I find myself going around the house with nothing
21     on but the CBC.
22     --- Laughter / Rires
23  1361                 MR. WILLIAMS:  Now, more than ever,
24     we need to turn the CBC on, not off.
25  1362                 Thank you.


 1     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 2  1363                 THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
 3     Thank you very much, sir.
 4                                                        2050
 5  1364                 MR. STEWART:  I now invite Mr. Robert
 6     Donnelly to make his presentation.
 8  1365                 MR. DONNELLY:  Speakers who are so
 9     eloquent in their remarks.
10  1366                 Of course, our thanks to the CRTC for
11     the hearings.  You have had many thanks and they're
12     well deserved.
13  1367                 The hearing has been a bit of a
14     revelation to me.  At home I listen to my radio -- or
15     many radios, because I believe every room has one.  And
16     if I take the dog for a walk, the Walkman comes along.
17  1368                 And in my own way, of course, I never
18     realized that so many people feel exactly as I do.  I
19     thought I was maybe a little unique, but it's
20     absolutely not so.
21  1369                 This is the first time I have made a
22     presentation.  I have never attended a public hearing
23     of any kind.
24  1370                 I'm going to repeat everything that
25     everybody has said and my wife said -- I told my wife,


 1     "I think I better skim through it and just pick out a
 2     few things", and she says, "No.  It's got to be said
 3     over and over again so they can get it".
 4  1371                 Well, I'm expressing mostly my
 5     personal opinion, although the CBC Radio in our case
 6     has been a family affair and we strongly support this
 7     institution.
 8  1372                 If I may be permitted, I do want to
 9     go back, because I don't think there's anybody any
10     older than I am in here.  Anyway, at my age, I can look
11     back to radio broadcasting almost to its origins.
12  1373                 I can recall as a child of six or
13     seven living in rural Saskatchewan, hearing my first
14     radio with a shared set of headphones on a home-made
15     radio.  And of course, no neighbours for at least a
16     mile around and the only thing was the telephone and it
17     didn't work very well.
18  1374                 And at least two American mid-west
19     stations were in operation then.  It's interesting. 
20     And if I can remember it correctly it was KOA Denver
21     and KSA -- I don't think my wife has it right -- KLA
22     Salt Lake City, I think it is.
23     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
24  1375                 MR. DONNELLY:  And national?
25     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone


 1  1376                 MR. DONNELLY:  That's right.  You're
 2     right, yes.
 3  1377                 This was at the start of the Great
 4     Depression and with no newspapers or magazines, this
 5     was our first connection beyond our few neighbours and
 6     relations.  Of course, we soon moved to a town and then
 7     a city and the radio became a central source of news
 8     and entertainment.
 9  1378                 Just one more memory and that is
10     while in Saskatchewan attending the university after
11     the war and living in Saskatoon, I would turn on the
12     radio at about eight o'clock for a 15-minute break and
13     listen to Don Messer and his Islanders.  And little did
14     I know then I would take up residence on this wonderful
15     Island where the program originated.
16  1379                 Probably what I'm trying to say is
17     that radio has been part of my life for almost 70 years
18     and it has been a very important part.  CBC Radio has
19     always been my choice for news, information and
20     entertainment.  It's difficult to express the interplay
21     in one's daily life that this radio provides, and this
22     is a shared experience by the sound of it.
23  1380                 It is there from the time one wakens
24     until lights out at the end of the day.  And of course,
25     as some people remarked, if you wake up in the middle


 1     of the night, you can get some real interesting
 2     broadcasting from around the world which might be a
 3     very good thing to be putting in on some of the --
 4     instead of some of the material we're getting now
 5     during the strike.
 6  1381                 It is there from the time one wakens
 7     until lights go out at the end of the evening.  There
 8     is a kind of rhythm for us.  You waken to local
 9     programming, weather for the day, it's a companion in
10     my works off with the regional program, from Halifax
11     there's a call-in, at supper there's a six o'clock news
12     followed by "As It Happens".  And at my desk in the
13     evening, that wonderful program "Ideas" and then late
14     evening music.
15  1382                 And I'm glad someone mentioned Stuart
16     MacLean, I haven't heard that mentioned very much.  But
17     the "Vinyl Cafe" is unique.  A storyteller.  What a
18     storyteller.  We never miss the "Radio Noon" as we have
19     our lunch or the Saturday "Science" program.
20  1383                 And now for some of the questions. 
21     Yes, CBC Radio does fulfil its role.  I'm beginning to
22     wonder, from what I have heard here though, I probably
23     should say in the past as a public broadcaster, I am
24     not sure how that can be improved because of the
25     funding problems.  Special programming comes from


 1     various regions, has a unifying effect on the country. 
 2     If all programming came from Toronto, for instance,
 3     that would not be good.  And I can't recall any special
 4     programming out of Quebec other than news.
 5  1384                 The lack of funding has, in my
 6     opinion, decreased the effectiveness of its role as a
 7     national public broadcaster.  I am sure that with
 8     increased funding the CBC can better fulfil its role in
 9     the future as this would allow more creativity in
10     carrying out its mandate.  Others have expressed this
11     much more forcibly and I think more creatively and more
12     accurately.
13  1385                 In the Maritimes, the CBC serves the
14     public with excellent regional programming.  There's
15     five hours local and two hours out of Halifax, and this
16     is a good mix.
17  1386                 The two hours from 4:00 to 6:00 has
18     suffered because of some loss of local coverage. 
19     That's being supplemented by national coverage.  The
20     proportion of national programming is about right on
21     weekdays.  The greatest loss has occurred on Sunday
22     morning programs.  It used to concentrate on mostly
23     world news and documentaries and I miss it.  And
24     Michael Enright is an excellent host, but on Sundays, I
25     want to hear someone different.


 1  1387                 CBC Radio must be different from
 2     other broadcasters and CBC Radio is definitely
 3     different.  The lack of funding has made it more
 4     difficult to be different and many of the programs have
 5     suffered.
 6  1388                 "Ideas" is nearly always a learning
 7     experience.  But it used to be better.  It is one of my
 8     favourite programs.  Bob MacDonald's science program is
 9     excellent.  The rest of Saturday p.m. is a write-off
10     for me, except for Danny Finkleman(ph), of course, then
11     we thank goodness we have the alternative of CBC Two.
12  1389                 TV for me is one hour, six days a
13     week, "The National".  It would be a real treat to see
14     it without advertising.  My wife gets up and leaves the
15     room when the advertising starts and I mute the TV and
16     read something else.
17  1390                 I kind of hesitated to put in my bias
18     against advertising, because it's so terrible that I
19     have difficulty expressing it.  Someone did say that
20     the advertising was better than some of the programs,
21     but I don't think that's true.
22  1391                 But I see no real reason why we can't
23     have a national TV network completely without
24     advertising.  It seems like the cost of producing
25     advertising is a burden, as well, on the CBC.  I'm


 1     naive enough to think that that could be possible.
 2  1392                 Anyway, do not repeat the 11:00 p.m. 
 3     You know, someone said that it's an insult to ourselves
 4     and I agree with her.
 5  1393                 But do go direct to the regional
 6     news.  One lady did say how, she says, "You have to get
 7     to bed a little early.  You can't wait up until 11:30
 8     and 11:45 to hear the regional news".  And that's
 9     right.  We never hear it anymore, at all.
10  1394                 The regional news from Halifax is on
11     too late to stay up and watch it.  I cannot comment
12     extensively on TV because I hardly ever look at it.  As
13     most people here have seemed to have indicated, there's
14     been almost no commentary on the TV except in the few
15     programs.
16  1395                 I agree with the same opinion that --
17     some opinions now that CBC TV must change if it is to
18     survive.  There is too much hockey, or sports in
19     general.  Playoff time, particularly in the Maritimes
20     is very frustrating because the news either never comes
21     on or it comes on after midnight.  At that time of the
22     year I threatened to never watch a TV screen again and
23     do not and never -- we do not and never will have cable
24     unless it can be structured so that we can get only
25     what we want.


 1  1396                 I am so biased against advertising,
 2     as I said before, that it is difficult for me to
 3     comment constructively on CBC Television.
 4  1397                 There have been some outstanding
 5     documentaries, interrupted by advertising.
 6  1398                 Thanks.
 7     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 8                                                        2100
 9  1399                 MR. STEWART:  I now invite Mr. Frank
10     Driscoll to make his presentation and he will be
11     replacing Mr. Harry Baglole.
13  1400                 MR. DRISCOLL:  Welcome to Prince
14     Edward Island to you and your staff.  And I'm very
15     pleased to be here to present among so many others that
16     are so professional and so passionate about the CBC. 
17     I'm personally passionate about the CBC, as well, but
18     I'm going to refrain from discussing my own personal
19     passions about the CBC and represent the views of the
20     organization that I represent.
21  1401                 I have the pleasure to represent the
22     Advisory Board of the Institute of Island Studies. 
23     We're an institute -- a public policy institute based
24     at the University of Prince Edward Island.  And I
25     wanted to acknowledge of the involvement of our public


 1     policy committee and specifically, Jeannie Lee's the
 2     Chairperson of that committee, and Harry Baglole, the
 3     Executive Director of the Institute of Island Studies
 4     is unable to be here tonight and the other members of
 5     our Board.  We have a 12-person Board and I'm honoured
 6     to be the Chairperson.
 7  1402                 I also acknowledge the presence and
 8     the contribution of Jane Ledwell, our researcher and
 9     our conference co-ordinator in helping us with the
10     brief.
11  1403                 The questions posed by the Canadian
12     Radio, Television Communications Commission, the CRTC,
13     offer a wide scope for discussion of the Canadian
14     Broadcasting Corporation and its mandate.
15  1404                 The Institute of Island Studies reply
16     to these questions is premised on the following
17     assumptions about the CBC.
18  1405                 First of all, role and
19     responsibilities.  As Canada's sole national public
20     broadcaster, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation has
21     an important role to play in creating a forum for
22     public debate and cultural representation and has an
23     important responsibility to the people of Canada to
24     provide balanced information and insightful analysis
25     and to tell stories of Canadians.


 1  1406                 Next:  Reflecting a nation.  CBC has
 2     an important obligation to reflect Canada as a nation
 3     to ten provinces, three territories and three founding
 4     peoples, aboriginal, francophone and anglophone.  And
 5     that these obligations set it apart from privately
 6     owned broadcasters and other media.
 7  1407                 Next:  Representing diversity.  We
 8     think that the best way to ensure that the CBC
 9     represents diverse groups, individuals, interests and
10     points of view is to ensure that it creates
11     opportunities for public discussion, debate and input
12     across the country.  And that the best way to gain
13     input from across the country is to maintain local
14     radio and television stations.
15  1408                 Representing the provinces.  CBC
16     Television and Radio have a special responsibility to
17     maintain and enrich broadcasting on a provincial level.
18  1409                 The comments that follow are
19     reflections on current practice in the CBC and helps
20     for its role in fostering and understanding of Canadian
21     nationalism and Canadian culture in the new millennium.
22  1410                 Our national public broadcaster.  The
23     CBC faces serious challenges as a national public
24     broadcaster in a nation that is geographical large with
25     a public that is widely and unevenly dispersed. 


 1     There's no identifiable, quantifiable, objective set of
 2     assumptions we can label as "Canadian".  No defined set
 3     of characteristics or radio listening or television
 4     viewing habits we can associate with Canadians.
 5  1411                 Canada as a nation, and Canadians as
 6     a public are what we understand, and understand
 7     importantly, understanding of a collectivity of
 8     provinces and people.  However, because we live
 9     together as a nation with an elective government and
10     because we interact with the wider political world as a
11     nation, there are most certainly issues that are issues
12     of national importance and as a national institution,
13     CBC plays an important role in providing the nation
14     with information about those issues as a public
15     institution.
16  1412                 The CBC must remember that its
17     audience is a diverse group of Canadians approaching
18     issues from a variety of perspectives and from across
19     the country.  As a result, it is critically important
20     that the CBC maintain a steadfastly public institution. 
21     It should not be forced to rely on funding from
22     advertising or have its impartiality breached by big
23     business or big government.  Likewise its programming
24     decisions should not be entirely driven by markets or
25     entirely rely on national ratings.


 1  1413                 The value of representing a nation
 2     and a public to itself sometimes goes beyond the value
 3     assigned to the market.  In order to accurately reflect
 4     the nation and the public, the CBC should represent
 5     groups whose views are invisible as a profit-driven
 6     private media.
 7  1414                 CBC should reflect the interests of
 8     the public, including minority and provincial concerns
 9     whose rights to be represented in the media and to have
10     their voices heard should be held as intrinsic and not
11     contingent.  The CBC should reach communities where
12     there is limited choice of media or where media are
13     monopolized by a few companies.
14  1415                 Whereas a private broadcaster has a
15     responsibility and a goal to return profit to its
16     shareholders, the profits CBC returns to its
17     shareholders, in other words Canadian citizens, are
18     less tangible.  They are the profits that derive from
19     having citizens who have access to information about
20     the events and the topics that shape our country.  They
21     are the profits that derive from having citizens who
22     have an opportunity to be part of an ongoing national
23     public debate.
24  1416                 The key consideration in the valuing
25     of CBC should not be how many individuals tune in, but


 1     rather that citizens have the option to tune in and
 2     that when they tune in, they have an opportunity to
 3     hear Canadian stories in information and entertainment
 4     programming.
 5  1417                 The next part is a nation in many
 6     parts and the public of many visions.
 7  1418                 The CBC must continue to play a
 8     special role in presenting Canadian programming.  Some
 9     would argue that the CBC should be -- that the role of
10     the CBC should be to sell -- to tell Canadian stories. 
11     Stories of a young nation, a narrative of social and
12     political development.  But there is no homogeneous
13     "Canadian" story to tell.  The tale to be told, rather
14     is in Canadians stories -- I don't mean the hockey
15     team.
16  1419                 Those stories have specificity,
17     content and depth that fully describe the people and
18     parts that come together to create Canada.  Canadian
19     stories should make up the news -- the new stories that
20     allow us to understand each other and know what is
21     happening in the country.  Stories of our arts and our
22     cultures, the stories of ordinary and extraordinary
23     Canadian's lives.  The stories that are the products of
24     our experience, our neighbour's opinions and strongly
25     held beliefs.


 1  1420                 The best, most direct way to tell
 2     Canadian stories is to build strong local programming. 
 3     Unfortunately we believe that CBC as a corporation has
 4     not always put its highest priority in providing
 5     funding for local programming, particularly the
 6     corporation has responded to pressure on budgets by
 7     consolidating resources for national programming
 8     broadcast from Canadian urban centres.
 9  1421                 In Prince Edward Island local
10     programming includes "Island Morning" for news and
11     information and "Main Street" for community cultural
12     events and items of interest on radio.  And on
13     television "Compass" for local, regional and national
14     news, sports and weather.  "Island Morning" continues
15     to be produced out of Charlottetown and continues to
16     offer news and analysis that spark consistent public
17     interest and debate.
18  1422                 Weekday afternoon programming has
19     faced more challenged.  Programming challenges dictated
20     from Toronto and is said to be dictated by the budget
21     cuts have deeply affected the content of the "Main
22     Street" program on Prince Edward Island.
23  1423                 Recycle, generalized human interest
24     stories from across the country and programs from
25     Toronto have reduced the broadcasting time available to


 1     present more in-depth and specific coverage of music,
 2     readings or performances by local people and to
 3     interview local people about cultural events and
 4     community happenings here.
 5  1424                 While the small staff remaining on
 6     the "Main Street" program continue to present quality
 7     local content, it does so under the duress of tight
 8     budgets and rigid control from programmers in Toronto.
 9  1425                 The main threat to our only locally
10     produced television newscast comes from statistics. 
11     When looked at from a national perspective, CBC supper
12     hour news program are losing their audiences.  However,
13     not all individual local news programs are losing.  In
14     the ratings that foretell the demise of CBC supper hour
15     shows, we find another reason that a national
16     perspective always needs to be balanced by a local
17     perspective.
18  1426                 In Prince Edward Island, "Compass"
19     maintains astounding ratings for viewership, estimated
20     to be up to 80 per cent viewership.  And the
21     presentations here today certainly reflect that.
22  1427                 If "Compass" were replaced by
23     national programming, the logic -- or illogic in this
24     case -- or ratings would dictate that the program
25     should be designed specifically to cater most to the


 1     interest of the larger market.  However, in the case of
 2     the supper hour news, it is the largest markets where
 3     the most competition from other media exist --
 4  1428                 MR. STEWART:  Excuse me, sir, you
 5     have reached --
 6  1429                 MR. DRISCOLL:  -- whose ratings
 7     are --
 8  1430                 MR. STEWART:  Excuse me, sir.  Sorry
 9     to interrupt you, you have reached the ten-minute mark. 
10     So if you could conclude --
11  1431                 MR. DRISCOLL:  I just have my
12     final --
13  1432                 MR. STEWART:  I totally appreciate
14     it, thank you.
15  1433                 MR. DRISCOLL:  However, in the case
16     of the supper hour shows, it is the largest markets
17     where most competition from other media exists.  The
18     importance of local stations is paramount.
19  1434                 P.E.I. is small in size and
20     population, means that we are not well represented in
21     so-called "national" broadcasting.  If we were better
22     represented at the regional level, it is because the
23     strength of our local station in Prince Edward Island
24     helps ensure that our province is well served in
25     regional programming.


 1  1435                 However, to have local programming
 2     subsumed under or replaced by regional programming
 3     would not be an acceptable alternative to a well
 4     maintained local CBC for Prince Edward Island.  The
 5     need to maintain a strong and vital and adequately
 6     funded local CBC station with locally controlled radio
 7     and television broadcasts is particularly important in
 8     Prince Edward Island for one additional and important
 9     reason.  Prince Edward Island is a province.  The most
10     recent historical commentators maintain that the true
11     building blocks of modern Canada are not the regions
12     but the provinces.
13  1436                 Contemporary government functioning
14     and initiatives like the social union and other
15     increases in devolution and responsibilities from the
16     Federal Government to the provinces underscore the
17     importance of this premise.
18  1437                 And finally, national programming
19     must be balanced by strong provincial programming that
20     addresses the issues, needs and concerns of the
21     provincial audience.  Only by giving equal weight to
22     both can CBC fulfil its public mandate.
23  1438                 Canada is much too large and much too
24     diverse to be culturally centred.  The apparent trend
25     towards homogenization and centralization in


 1     programming goes against what is in fact has made CBC
 2     relevant and attractive to Canadians.
 3  1439                 And in conclusion I'm going to
 4     suggest a metaphor, an Island metaphor, one that goes
 5     like this:  One big grain of sand is a boulder not a
 6     beach.  Canada is a beach made up of multiple discreet
 7     parts that come together to create a broader sense, an
 8     ecosystem where the parts work together to create a
 9     whole and sustain a population.  One large centralized
10     broadcasting system would not serve Canada well.
11  1440                 The nation and the public need
12     pebbles and sand, not boulders.
13  1441                 Thank you very much.
14     --- Applause / Applaudissements
15                                                        2114
16  1442                 MR. STEWART:  I now invite Ms Jane
17     Ledwell representing the P.E.I. Youth Council.
19  1443                 MS LEDWELL:  Good evening.  The
20     Prince Edward Island Youth Council is a relatively new
21     organization formed essentially within the last year to
22     represent Prince Edward Island youth between the ages
23     of 16 and 29 on issues of social, cultural, economic
24     and educational development.
25  1444                 And I thank the other members of the


 1     Council who are here this evening for giving me the
 2     privilege of being able to present the brief that they
 3     have prepared.
 4  1445                 Whether or not young Canadians watch
 5     CBC Television or listen to CBC Radio, the CBC is
 6     hugely important to the nation's youth.  Commercial
 7     radio and television treat young people primarily as a
 8     market for consumer products.  Slickly packaged music,
 9     fashionable clothing, snack foods, fast foods, acne
10     cures, perfumes, educational institutions and even
11     trendy vocabulary.  Privately owned and operated
12     broadcasters all too often trivialize, patronize or
13     objectify youth as a niche market that increasingly has
14     money to burn.
15  1446                 The benefit of having a national
16     public broadcaster whose programming is not totally
17     profit oriented or profit driven is that youth have an
18     opportunity to be seen not just as a vital market, but
19     also as a vital part of the community and the nation in
20     which we live.
21  1447                 The CBC has undertaken several
22     initiatives to better represent young people in its
23     radio and television programming.  One notable
24     initiative to appeal to younger radio listeners and to
25     include younger commentators in radio programming was a


 1     recent initiative of Radio One's program "Out Front"
 2     for young people.  It was an invitation to young people
 3     to create documentaries about their experiences and
 4     their concerns.
 5  1448                 Programs in the regular radio
 6     schedule, such as Saturday afternoon's "Definitely Not
 7     the Opera" presents a youth-centred quirky and critical
 8     take on popular culture.  And on television,
 9     information programs such as "Street Sense" appeal to
10     younger youth and entertainment programs such as
11     popular comedy shows and series like last year's
12     "Twitch City" also play to youth sensibilities.
13  1449                 Youth are not only an audience,
14     however.  We are also a group that needs an audience. 
15     The CBC not only has an important role in providing
16     information to young people, it also has a role in
17     providing opportunities for youth voices to be heard.
18  1450                 At all levels, the CBC needs to
19     solicit the views of young people to set up
20     opportunities for youth to provide their insights on
21     issues that effect them and issues that effect the
22     wider community in which young people live.
23  1451                 We, at the Prince Edward Island Youth
24     Council, would argue that where young people have the
25     greatest opportunity to have the greatest impact on


 1     their environment is in their local community.  The
 2     local CBC also provides the best opportunity to develop
 3     local youth culture, to promote youth events, to
 4     showcase talented young people and to provide
 5     opportunities for young people to break into careers in
 6     broadcasting related jobs.
 7  1452                 The local CBC helps youth in other
 8     ways, as well.  For instance, in the past year or two,
 9     it was the local CBC in Prince Edward Island that
10     hosted and promoted a huge well-attended yard sale that
11     raised funds for two community youth centres.
12  1453                 It's local broadcasting that's the
13     cornerstone of a national broadcasting system and it
14     should be the primary source of content for radio and
15     television whenever possible.  National youth
16     programming that's invariably based in the urban
17     centres of the country cannot hope to provide a voice
18     for groups from rural areas and small communities, from
19     areas where the political issues and popular culture
20     are entirely different from those in the larger
21     markets.
22  1454                 The Prince Edward Island Youth
23     Council was formed to work to give youth in Prince
24     Edward Island a voice on issues of social, cultural,
25     educational and economic development here in Prince


 1     Edward Island.  We focus our attention on the community
 2     in which we live to think globally and act locally, to
 3     use the current catch phrase.  But without local
 4     broadcast media few people might hear about what
 5     actions we strive to undertake.
 6  1455                 If budgets within the CBC were
 7     re-allocated to local stations, the local stations that
 8     form the key parts of the network, then more money for
 9     local programming could also mean more money for youth
10     programming.
11  1456                 The press forewarns us recently that
12     the CBC will probably soon seek a licence for a third
13     English-language radio service, Radio Three.  A service
14     aimed at youth.  Reports suggest that such a service
15     would cater to youth interest, primarily by playing
16     alternative music and broadcasting so-called "youth
17     oriented" news.
18  1457                 While the idea certainly has merit,
19     the Youth Council has serious concerns that given the
20     current financial straits of the CBC, youth programming
21     would come at the expense of local broadcasting, which
22     would be, according to us, a regressive step.
23  1458                 Likewise, if Radio Three were to
24     replace the thoughtful and analytical content on Radio
25     One and Radio Two with so much music filler on Radio


 1     Three, it would be an insult to Canada's thoughtful and
 2     analytical young people who are concerned with serious
 3     news.  We have concerns that so-called "youth oriented"
 4     news might be an euphemism for a kind of news light,
 5     with watered-down content focused on trends and pop
 6     culture at the expense of political and social,
 7     economic and cultural analysis.
 8  1459                 When a licensed application for Radio
 9     Three comes up for hearings before the CRTC, the P.E.I.
10     Youth Council hopes it will have another opportunity to
11     make a detailed submission to the CRTC to comment on
12     the licence application and the important relationship
13     between the national public broadcasting and Canada's
14     youth.
15  1460                 In the meantime, the Council would
16     like to offer its support for the local CBC station and
17     locally controlled and produced radio and television
18     broadcasting where youth have an opportunity to make
19     their voices heard.
20  1461                 Thank you.
21     --- Applause / Applaudissements
22                                                        2155
23  1462                 MR. STEWART:  I now invite Ms Emery
24     to make her presentation.


 1  1463                 MS EMERY:  First of all, I want to
 2     thank you for allowing me the time to express some of
 3     my thoughts on the role of the CBC as a public
 4     broadcaster.
 5  1464                 Although I do not have a television
 6     in my home, by choice, CBC Radio has been an integral
 7     part of my life for as long as I can remember.
 8  1465                 I was probably three or four when I
 9     first heard Don Messer playing music on the radio from
10     a place called Halifax that was so far away from Red
11     Lake, Ontario, northwestern Ontario.  The radio was
12     magic.
13  1466                 Radio, to me, specifically CBC Radio,
14     has served ever since to educate me, inspire me and
15     loose my imagination to other planes of awareness that
16     ultimately become part of my every days.
17  1467                 To me, art envelopes everything. 
18     It's always waiting to happen.  It often comes on
19     tip-toe, catching us by surprise.  Turn on the radio,
20     turn on CBC Radio, and you can be changed by a word, a
21     thought an utterly inspired use of the spoken word.  It
22     can come as a passage of music played by a full
23     orchestra or merely plucked by a single guitar.
24  1468                 CBC Radio, I feel, should always be
25     able to accommodate these splendid moments, to produce


 1     them and broadcast to eager listeners all over the
 2     country and abroad to enrich their lives, to enrich
 3     their everyday lives.
 4  1469                 Non-commercially driven, the CBC
 5     should serve to encourage its listeners to see more of
 6     their lives than dollar signs, bottom lines and top ten
 7     formula programming.  We already have plenty of that
 8     with the other radio stations.  CBC Radio should be
 9     different from the other radio stations.
10  1470                 As an artist, I have appreciated the
11     venues that CBC Radio has provided for Canadian writers
12     to air their works on such programs as the "Mystery
13     Project", "Between the Covers", "Sunday Night
14     Showcase", the "Vinyl Cafe", the "Dead Dog Cafe".  Be
15     strong, be brave, wait for the signs.
16  1471                 It would be a litany to name them
17     all.  I have also appreciated hearing the beautiful
18     readings of "The English Patient", "Larry's Party",
19     "Away", "The Stone Diaries".  Such powerful stories so
20     well read to the point where the pictures struck in my
21     mind by such excellent work are as effective as if I
22     was seeing the piece projected onto a big screen.
23  1472                 Work such as this should not fall to
24     the wayside; it should be encouraged.  It should become
25     a part of the fabric of Canada, woven right through


 1     from one end of the country to the other.
 2  1473                 The support the CBC has afforded
 3     Canadian artists, writers, actors, directors,
 4     producers, musicians, technicians and thinkers is to be
 5     commended.  The CBC should, in my opinion, continue
 6     doing this, if indeed it is considered to be important
 7     that the imagination, the soul, as well as the body, be
 8     nurtured and fed.
 9  1474                 Thank you.
10     --- Applause / Applaudissements
11  1475                 THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
12     Thank you.
13                                                        2126
14  1476                 M. STEWART:  J'inviterais maintenant
15     M. Edgar Arsenault à faire sa présentation.
17  1477                 M. RICHARD:  Mesdames et messieurs,
18     bonsoir.  Je m'appelle Antoine Richard et je suis le
19     Président de la Société Saint-Thomas D'Aquin.
20  1478                 Je tiens à remercier le CRTC de
21     l'opportunité qui nous est offerte de participer aux
22     consultations publiques sur la Société Radio-Canada.
23  1479                 La Société Saint-Thomas D'Aquin est
24     la société acadienne de l'Île-du-Prince-Édouard
25     représentant une population d'Acadiens, d'Acadiennes et


 1     de francophones dynamique au nombre approximatif de
 2     6 000.  Quand on parle de la population susceptible
 3     d'utiliser les services de la Société Radio-Canada et
 4     ses chaînes spécialisées, il ne faut surtout pas
 5     négliger la population insulaire bilingue représentant,
 6     selon Statistiques Canada, 11 pour cent de la
 7     population totale de la province.
 8  1480                 En premier lieu, rappelons que la
 9     Société Radio-Canada est tenue de favoriser
10     l'épanouissement des communautés de langues officielles
11     en vertu de la Partie VII de la Loi sur les langues
12     officielles.  Les coupures de budget qu'a subies la
13     Société ont provoqué une restructuration d'envergure
14     dans certaines régions et ceci a certainement eu un
15     effet néfaste sur nos communautés vivant en minorité.
16  1481                 Dès 1997, la réorganisation
17     administrative et la réaffectation de certains ponts,
18     surtout dans les stations radiophoniques les plus
19     touchées par les coupures, a permis d'apaiser quelque
20     peu nos inquiétudes au point de vue des services et de
21     la qualité de la programmation pour la Société
22     Radio-Canada.  Jusqu'à un certain point, la nouvelle
23     stratégie de programmation en fonction des besoins des
24     minorités semble avoir eu des effets positifs mais elle
25     laisse tout de même matière à amélioration.


 1  1482                 Afin de bien refléter les opinions de
 2     la communauté dans son entièreté, nous avons recueilli
 3     divers commentaires que nous avons regroupés en trois
 4     parties:  commentaires positifs, des choses à améliorer
 5     et des suggestions.
 6  1483                 Sur une note positive, les
 7     commentaires positifs portent surtout sur la présence
 8     accrue de la Société Radio-Canada à l'Île.
 9  1484                 Le centre de production à
10     Charlottetown et "CBAF Bonjour":  Nous profitons de
11     cette occasion pour renouveler nos sentiments de
12     satisfaction par rapport à l'ouverture du centre de
13     production qui nous permet, entre autres, d'avoir sur
14     les ondes "CBAF Bonjour", une émission produite à l'Île
15     par des gens vivant au sein de notre communauté. 
16     L'équipe nous renseigne sur les diverses activités qui
17     nous touchent et nous offre également une fenêtre par
18     laquelle les Acadiens, Acadiennes et francophones
19     peuvent se faire entendre et se faire valoir.  Il est
20     primordial que le studio demeure à Charlottetown.
21  1485                 Présence de la communauté insulaire
22     sur les ondes:  La population remarque le fait que
23     certaines émissions aient été filmées à l'Île, mettant
24     en évidence la vitalité de notre communauté, bien que
25     beaucoup concentrées sur la région Évangéline. 


 1     L'émission "Trajectoire" a présenté les profils
 2     d'artistes telles que Jacinthe Laforêt et Anne Gallant
 3     durant l'été 1998.  "Le Jour du Seigneur" a couvert une
 4     messe à Mont Carmel et une à Baie Egmont.  Les "Gens en
 5     affaires"(ph) ont également eus des vedettes à la
 6     télévision au cours de l'année.
 7  1486                 L'émission radiophonique "Déclic!",
 8     produite à l'automne en provenance du Carrefour de
 9     l'Île Saint-Jean, est une expérience qu'il faut répéter
10     afin de permettre à notre communauté de s'exprimer et
11     de se faire mieux connaître auprès des autres
12     francophones de l'Atlantique.  Il est indispensable de
13     sauvegarder l'équipe de journalistes et cameramen qui
14     produit également des reportages pour le réseau RDI,
15     reportages qui sont très écoutés dans le cadre de "Ce
16     Soir Moncton" mais pas souvent dans la version
17     intégrale sur les ondes du RDI.
18  1487                 La Société Radio-Canada à l'écoute
19     des préoccupations de la communauté:  Il faut
20     mentionner aussi une participation accrue de la part
21     des dirigeants de la Société Radio-Canada qui fut
22     présente lors de diverses consultations
23     interministérielles ainsi que lors du forum 97.  Nous
24     pensons que ceci permet aux responsables de la
25     programmation de mieux comprendre la dynamique de notre


 1     communauté.
 2  1488                 À améliorer:  La remarque la plus
 3     fréquente porte sur le contenu très québécois de la
 4     Société Radio-Canada, voire même montréalais.  Que ce
 5     soit sur les ondes télédiffusées ou radiophoniques, les
 6     émissions ne rencontrent pas toujours les besoins des
 7     Acadiens, Acadiennes et francophones des Maritimes.  La
 8     majeure partie des émissions s'adresse aux habitants du
 9     Québec et ne tient pas compte des communautés
10     d'expression française du reste du Canada.
11  1489                 Sur ce point, la Société Radio-Canada
12     a la responsabilité de desservir uniformément toutes
13     les communautés.  Elle doit mieux remplir son rôle en
14     augmentant la participation de ces communautés, que ce
15     soit au niveau de la production ou du contenu lui-même.
16  1490                 Par la voie de son rapport d'étude
17     spécial au Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
18     télécommunications canadiennes et la câblodistribution,
19     publié en décembre 1996, le Commissaires aux Langues
20     officielles indique:
21                            "Nous reconnaissons l'importance
22                            de la radiodiffusion comme outil
23                            de soutien et de développement
24                            pour les communautés de langue
25                            minoritaire."  (Tel que lu)


 1  1491                 La Société Radio-Canada doit se
 2     servir de son pouvoir de diffuser en démontrant
 3     davantage la vitalité et les accomplissements des
 4     francophones.  Il faut mettre en évidence les petits
 5     succès individuels et communautaires non seulement de
 6     l'Île mais des autres communautés.  On veut connaître
 7     les efforts et les succès des francophones vivant au
 8     Canada et on veut faire connaître les nôtres, et ce,
 9     dans tous les domaines.
10  1492                 La Société Radio-Canada se doit de
11     bien informer nos communautés, que ce soit au plan des
12     nouvelles nationales et régionales qui les touchent: 
13     des informations météorologiques, de la vie culturelle,
14     économique et politique, et le reste.
15  1493                 Grand nombre de personnes regardent
16     les informations sur les ondes de la CBC à
17     Charlottetown "Compass" afin d'être véritablement
18     informées sur les événements de la journée.  Il est
19     évident que les deux ou trois minutes accordées lors
20     d'émissions d'information en français à la télévision
21     ou à la radio ne sont guère suffisantes pour refléter
22     notre communauté.
23  1494                 Au niveau national, la programmation
24     est très québécoise et au niveau régional, elle est
25     axée sur le Nouveau-Brunswick.  On parle souvent de


 1     l'Acadie comme étant existante principalement au
 2     Nouveau-Brunswick.  On se voit trop peu.  On s'entend
 3     trop peu.  Bien qu'il y ait eu certaines améliorations,
 4     le mandat régional de la Société Radio-Canada doit être
 5     révisé afin de mieux rejoindre nos besoins.
 6  1495                 Nous voulons ouvrir une parenthèse
 7     ici et souligner la mauvaise qualité de réception des
 8     ondes radiophoniques dans la région de Prince ouest. 
 9     De plus, mentionnons que les personnes possèdent une
10     antenne parabolique et ne captent pas la programmation
11     en provenance de Moncton mais celle de Montréal, par
12     exemple, l'émission "Ce Soir".
13  1496                 Suggestion:  Que les émissions
14     produit au Québec prennent en considération l'existence
15     d'un auditoire francophone hors Québec.  Par exemple,
16     l'émission "La Facture" pourrait adresser des cas hors
17     du Québec et renseigner les consommatrices et les
18     consommateurs sur les droits en indiquant les
19     divergences qui existent selon les lois des provinces.
20  1497                 "La Semaine verte", qui touche
21     l'agriculture, l'élevage, les pêches, l'environnement
22     et le reste, pourrait représenter davantage les régions
23     de l'Atlantique.  Les émissions culturelles doivent
24     mieux refléter la créativité de nos insulaires acadiens
25     et francophones en utilisant leur capacité et leurs


 1     produits.
 2  1498                 Les émissions produites au Québec
 3     doivent favoriser la participation des individus qui
 4     habitent dans les régions éloignées.  Par exemple, les
 5     bulletins de participation aux divers concours sont
 6     souvent publiés uniquement dans des revues ou des
 7     journaux québécois que nous ne recevons pas à l'Île.
 8  1499                 Que la production d'émissions
 9     régionales soit augmentée afin d'en diversifier les
10     sujets et qu'elle soit plus représentative de la
11     réalité de nos communautés.  Ceci offrirait à notre
12     population l'occasion de s'exprimer et de participer
13     activement aux productions qui les feront mieux
14     connaître au niveau de l'Atlantique et au niveau
15     national.
16  1500                 La Société Radio-Canada doit utiliser
17     davantage des bulletins communautaires et notre journal
18     "La Voix acadienne" pour informer les Acadiennes,
19     Acadiens et francophones des émissions qui les touchent
20     et qui les mettent particulièrement en évidence.
21  1501                 Services spécialisées:  Il serait
22     intéressant d'étudier la possibilité qu'une chaîne de
23     services spécialisées soit exclusivement consacrée aux
24     communautés d'expression française du pays et que cette
25     chaîne soit offerte dans la programmation de base des


 1     câblodistributeurs.
 2  1502                 Au sujet de RDI, nous sommes heureux
 3     de constater que le Réseau de l'information est
 4     distribué par le câblodistributeur insulaire bien qu'il
 5     ne couvre pas tout l'Île et que RDI est inclut dans la
 6     programmation de base offerte pour les régions de
 7     Charlottetown et d'Ingonish.  Il est en effet ironique
 8     de constater que le bureau régional dessert la région
 9     francophone la plus dense, la région Évangéline, 90
10     pour cent de francophones, et offre le RDI sur son
11     service facultatif et donc à un coût additionnel.
12  1503                 En conclusion, bien qu'il y ait eu un
13     certain nombre d'améliorations apportées à la
14     programmation, la population acadienne et francophone
15     de l'Île-du-Prince-Édouard ne se reconnaît pas
16     suffisamment dans la programmation ouverte sur les
17     ondes de Radio-Canada et de la télévision de
18     Radio-Canada.
19  1504                 La programmation offerte présentement
20     par la Société Radio-Canada est axée principalement sur
21     les événements québécois et s'adresse
22     presqu'exclusivement à la population québécoise.
23  1505                 Bien que nous comprenons les
24     contraintes budgétaires, nous suggérons que la Société
25     Radio-Canada augmente la réalisation d'émissions sur


 1     place, par exemple, l'émission "Déclic", ainsi que la
 2     couverture d'événements communautaires tels les
 3     festivals et les spectacles.  Bien souvent, les
 4     activités qui se déroulent en soirée ou durant les fins
 5     de semaine ne sont pas couvertes.  Nous apprécierions
 6     vivement les efforts faits dans ce sens et sommes
 7     convaincus des retombées positives sur notre
 8     communauté.
 9  1506                 Enfin, nous ne voulons pas être
10     seulement les récepteurs, nous voulons être des
11     participants.  La Société Radio-Canada se doit
12     d'identifier son rôle face à la langue et à la
13     diversité de la culture des diverses régions.  Elle a
14     un rôle de conscience sociale à jouer.
15  1507                 Si la Société Radio-Canada ne fait
16     pas plus d'efforts de se rapprocher des communautés
17     d'expression française de l'extérieur du Québec, elle
18     risque de perdre davantage de terrain.  À  ce niveau,
19     les radios communautaires ont relativement plus de
20     succès et semblent combler jusqu'à un certain point ce
21     manque.
22  1508                 La Société Radio-Canada ne doit pas
23     limiter sa représentativité des régions au secteur
24     culturel mais doit assumer pleinement son rôle au
25     niveau de sa contribution dans l'épanouissement et le


 1     développement social et politique des communautés.
 2  1509                 À cet effet, nous sommes d'avis que
 3     le CRTC joue un rôle de première instance et doit se
 4     montrer vigilant afin de favoriser l'épanouissement des
 5     minorités francophones et anglophones du pays et
 6     d'appuyer leur développement.  Nous vous encourageons à
 7     poursuivre vos efforts en la matière.
 8  1510                 Je vous remercie de votre attention.
 9     --- Applause / Applaudissements
10  1511                 LA PRÉSIDENTE DU CONSEIL:  Merci.
11                                                        2137
12  1512                 MR. STEWART:  I now invite Ms Perry
13     to make her presentation.
14  1513                 MS PERRY:  Welcome to Prince Edward
15     Island.
16  1514                 Does anyone know what "Recoil" is? 
17     Actually, I was listening to CBC Radio as I was coming
18     into Charlottetown and one of the people had a phone
19     interview with someone from Stockholm and they're in
20     the process of marketing a substance they call
21     "Recoil".  What it is, it's a skunk smell in a capsule
22     and it was invented by a Canadian professor,
23     apparently, who wanted his daughters to use it as a
24     protection and you can wear it on your bra or
25     underclothes and you give it a good hard press when


 1     you're attacked and it gives off this awful skunk
 2     smell.
 3  1515                 I learned this on CBC Radio.
 4     --- Laughter / Rires
 5  1516                 MS PERRY:  My daughter was quite
 6     interested in it, as well.  I hope that's making her
 7     into a CBC listener.
 8  1517                 Actually, perhaps my hair isn't that
 9     grey yet, but it's getting there.  And I identified
10     with some of these mentions of programs way back when,
11     like "The Happy Gang" and "The Don Messer Show" and the
12     "Sing-along Jubilee" and the radio farm broadcast with
13     the Farm family, I think they had a different one down
14     here in the Maritimes from what we had in the Prairies. 
15     I'm a transplanted westerner.  "Rawhide", the "Gordy
16     Tapp Show", or pet "Juliette" a home-grown Manitoba
17     entertainer.
18  1518                 As you can see, I have been a
19     long-time TV and radio, CBC, watcher.  The "Plouffe
20     Family", "This Hour Has Seven Days", "Tommy Hunter
21     Show" and now I'm looking -- I'm a fan of the Saturday
22     and Sunday radio broadcasts, "The Vinyl Cafe", so forth
23     on -- let's get back to Prince Edward Island.
24  1519                 When we moved here in 1985, it was
25     CBC Radio and Television that put me in touch with what


 1     was happening here in the community in Prince Edward
 2     Island.  The regional -- some of your regional local
 3     coverage, "Island Morning", Ian Petrie's news
 4     coverage -- I'm a fan of his type of coverage.  David
 5     Weale's "Long Way from the Road", "Main Street" which
 6     covers everything that's culture and important from the
 7     rural part of Prince Edward Island, as well as in the
 8     town.
 9  1520                 I could go on and on with how our
10     local regional coverage has made me feel that I was in
11     touch and in tune with what was happening in this
12     province, our new home.  But I also needed to be in
13     touch with the rest of Canada and we had some very
14     eloquent speakers.  Danny Finkleman, I know -- hey, I'm
15     from that era, I identify with the kind of music he
16     plays and his commentary.  They also have a very a good
17     blues show after that on CBC Radio.
18  1521                 I like the TV documentaries, "Big
19     Bear", the Mount Cashel documentary, the story of Louis
20     Riel, the Japanese Canadian story, this all made --
21     things that we should have known and been taught in
22     school when I was going to school and I would venture
23     to say my children certainly didn't get this kind of
24     information -- became something that we were made aware
25     of as Canadians.


 1  1522                 I'm a second generation Canadian from
 2     the prairie provinces.  My grandparents immigrated over
 3     here from eastern Europe.  Needless to say, even my
 4     parents didn't identify as Canadians; but it was CBC
 5     Radio and Television that made Canadians out of myself
 6     and my family.
 7  1523                 The "Don Messer Show", even my
 8     father, you know, he had -- my family are musical,
 9     fiddle music, country, you know, that kind of thing was
10     important to my family.  They played in Regina, a radio
11     program, so forth and so on.  But when they heard Don
12     Messer, hey, they came alive.  There was another part
13     of Canada and it was us and they could identify with
14     that music.
15  1524                 "Sing-Along Jubilee", Anne Murray,
16     you know, all these people suddenly were ours.  They
17     weren't Nashville.  You know, they were our
18     entertainers.
19  1525                 As a matter of fact, at one time my
20     father and his brothers, you know, raised in the dust
21     bowl of southern Saskatchewan actually entertained
22     going across the border to the United States to follow
23     some of their entertainment dreams.  Thank the good
24     Lord they didn't go.
25  1526                 Gordy Tapp, you know, all these


 1     people suddenly became -- they were our people, they
 2     were our culture, we were hearing stories about
 3     ourselves.
 4  1527                 I have to admit that I grew up in the
 5     fifties and sixties when, you know, the high bouffant,
 6     the hairstyles, the short mini skirts and going out and
 7     having a ball as a young woman out, you know, on the
 8     town.  I certainly wasn't listening to CBC Radio and
 9     TV.  But somehow it crept in.  And suddenly there was
10     the issue of the Canadian flag and there was the issue
11     of being Canada and it was the only place we were
12     hearing about it was on CBC.
13  1528                 And I have to say now, my kids, my
14     oldest is 24, she listens to "Definitely Not the
15     Opera", she listens to the commentary, she listens to
16     the other crap that's on the other stations and it
17     doesn't do anything for her.  She turns to CBC and, you
18     know, it's critical.  She can think.
19  1529                 My younger daughter, who is still in
20     university here, is starting to pay attention a little
21     more, too, especially now I told her about "Recoil". 
22     My son, 19-year old son, who is in university here in
23     Prince Edward Island, sits down and watches and listens
24     to the documentary.  He doesn't just watch "Jonovision"
25     and "Street Sense", he looks at "Venture" and


 1     "Marketplace" and "the fifth estate" and analyses and
 2     critiques them.  And yet he and some of his friends
 3     have a rock band, you know.  So there are young people
 4     out there who want to have serious television.
 5  1530                 And I would say, don't separate them
 6     off in another channel somewhere.  Have them
 7     listening -- we listen to them, we hear their stories,
 8     their music, we may not like it, but I will tell you, I
 9     have learned a lot just listening to some of the stuff
10     that, you know, like "Twitch" is it?  But my son got a
11     real kick out of it and I had to pay attention because,
12     you know, what's it in, what's he getting out of this,
13     you know.
14  1531                 My husband is also a big fan.  He's
15     working in western Saskatchewan right now, and I know
16     he wants to hear what's happening in the Maritimes, you
17     know.  So when we hear about the ice storm, we hear
18     about the Red River flood, we hear in Quebec what's
19     happening, you know, the flood in Quebec.  We hear
20     what's happening with the fisheries crisis, the closing
21     of the mine.  We need to know this, this is our
22     country, our story.
23  1532                 So, in closing I want to say that
24     let's make sure that our CBC employees are treated
25     fairly and justly.  And I agree that I feel there is a


 1     political agenda, there is a bottom line that is being
 2     looked at and our employees, locally and nationally in
 3     CBC need to be given a fair deal, get going at the
 4     negotiations table, get a settlement that makes our CBC
 5     people happy, because if they're happy, they're going
 6     to be concentrating on giving us good programming.  And
 7     I don't know what power you carry, but I certainly want
 8     to add my message on that front.
 9  1533                 I want to add my support to a public
10     broadcast that is truly a public broadcast.  I don't
11     want to sell lotto tickets, I would much rather have my
12     tax dollars going towards paying for a public
13     broadcast.  I think they need to have their funding,
14     not only replaced, but increased and make it -- it's
15     Canada, they're essential to us as being a country and
16     we have a lot of new Canadians here and I think it's
17     important to them to feel that they're part of the
18     Canadian society.
19  1534                 Thank you very much.
20     --- Applause / Applaudissements
21                                                        2147
22  1535                 M. STEWART:  Maintenant, j'inviterais
23     Mme Marie-Claire Paulin-Karé à faire sa présentation.
25  1536                 MME PAULIN-KARÉ:  Bonsoir.  


 1     J'aimerais d'abord remercier les commissaires de se
 2     rendre dans ce coin-ci du pays pour entendre un peu
 3     qu'est-ce qu'on pense et nos constats par rapport au
 4     travail que Radio-Canada fait depuis des années ici
 5     dans la région.
 6  1537                 Je dois dire que c'est la deuxième
 7     fois que j'ai l'opportunité de passer devant le CRTC. 
 8     La première fois c'était au Nouveau-Brunswick à
 9     Bathurst en 1987 et c'était lors de l'octroi de la
10     licence de la première radio communautaire francophone
11     à diffuser à l'extérieur du Québec, CKRO à
12     Porte-Mouche(ph).  Donc, je viens du Nouveau-Brunswick
13     et je ne peux pas m'empêcher de faire une petite
14     parenthèse.
15  1538                 Je n'ai rien de préparer.  On m'a mal
16     compris.  Je ne devais pas faire de présentation mais
17     si ce n'est que de réaffirmer un peu ce que mes
18     confrères ont pu dire ici par rapport à la réalité
19     qu'on vit ici en tant que minoritaires, en tant
20     qu'Acadiens et francophones à l'Île.  Il est sûr que
21     Radio-Canada, surtout à la télé, ce qu'on voit c'est un
22     contenu très montréalais, très québécois.  On
23     s'identifie très peu, très peu à ça.
24  1539                 Je dois dire que j'ai vécu à
25     l'étranger pendant quelques années.  Ça fait un peu


 1     moins d'un an que je suis de retour au pays.  Je peux
 2     voir quand même une nette amélioration, que ce soit au
 3     niveau de la radio ou au niveau de la télé.  Mais je
 4     pense qu'il faut toujours s'améliorer, toujours essayer
 5     de voir ce qui se passe.  Je vois à Moncton quand même
 6     de nettes améliorations par rapport à leur
 7     programmation qu'ils essayent de rendre un peu plus
 8     locale.
 9  1540                 Le centre de production à
10     Charlottetown:  je pense que la dernière fois que le
11     CRTC a étudié une demande de licence de Radio-Canada,
12     il n'y avait pas de centre de production locale ici à
13     Charlottetown.  Maintenant, on en a un.  Je félicite
14     Radio-Canada d'avoir pris cette initiative-là, mais on
15     n'a quand même que trois heures de production locale.
16  1541                 Ça serait peut-être intéressant de
17     pouvoir penser, un moment donné, de s'entendre un peu
18     plus.  Je pense que les francophones... c'est que la
19     radio surtout c'est un moyen primordial de
20     développement, surtout pour les minorités qui vivent
21     ici à l'Île ou dans d'autres provinces du Canada.
22  1542                 Alors, je ne m'éterniserai pas.  Je
23     voudrais juste, en fait, appuyer ce que mes confrères
24     ont dit auparavant et je voudrais juste terminer sur
25     quelque chose que j'ai vu avant hier à la télévision. 


 1     C'est l'émission "Musicotrip"(ph).  C'est une émission
 2     de jeunes qui va d'ailleurs venir à Charlottetown au
 3     mois d'avril, au Carrefour de l'Île Saint-Jean.
 4  1543                 Ça m'a vraiment, vraiment étonné.  On
 5     voyait "Musicotrip" à 1700; 1600 au Québec.  Alors, je
 6     pense qu'il y a des efforts qui sont faits dans ce sens
 7     et c'est vraiment intéressant de voir quand même qu'il
 8     y a certaines productions qui sont faites à Moncton que
 9     les gens du Québec vont pouvoir voir, et j'espère bien,
10     le reste du Canada.  Alors, j'aimerais féliciter un peu
11     cette initiative-là.
12  1544                 Alors, c'est un peu tout ce que
13     j'avais à dire.  Je vous remercie.
14     --- Applaudissements / Applause
15  1545                 LA PRÉSIDENTE DU CONSEIL:  Merci,
16     Madame.  Merci.
17  1546                 MR. STEWART:  The next presenter is
18     listed as the representative of the Indian River
19     Festival Association.  Is there such a person in the
20     room?
21  1547                 Can that person identify himself or
22     herself?  No.
23  1548                 Therefore, I will now invite
24     Ms Evelyn Feldstein to make her presentation.
25  1549                 Is Ms Feldstein in the room?  No.


 1                                                        2151
 2  1550                 Alors, j'invite M. Alex Robert à
 3     faire sa présentation.
 5  1551                 M. ROBERT:  Merci.  Bonsoir à tous. 
 6     Bonsoir Madame la Présidente.  Bonsoir aux Membres et
 7     au personnel du CRTC qui sont ici ce soir et mesdames
 8     et messieurs qui sont dans l'audience.
 9  1552                 Je voudrais commencer par vous
10     féliciter de vous être déplacés puis d'aller rencontrer
11     les gens, d'aller écouter ce que les gens ont à dire au
12     sujet de CBC et de Radio-Canada.  Je pense que c'est
13     comme ça que vous allez vraiment prendre le pouls de la
14     population, voir ce que les régions, ce que les
15     différentes provinces et les différentes communautés
16     ont besoin.
17  1553                 Puis quand j'ai constaté que vous
18     aviez l'intention de tenir des audiences publiques,
19     j'étais à la fois curieux et intrigué, puis aussi
20     j'avais un peu le désir de venir m'exprimer face à
21     l'avenir puis au rôle de Radio-Canada.  Vraiment,
22     personnellement, c'est plutôt en tant que membre du
23     public ordinaire.
24  1554                 J'ai été très, très heureux
25     d'entendre les commentaires qui ont été faits ici ce


 1     soir.  J'ai trouvé que c'était très pertinent.  J'ai
 2     trouvé que les gens avaient des approches intéressantes
 3     face à Radio-Canada et puis on a certainement exprimé
 4     ici aujourd'hui un appui inconditionnel à la
 5     programmation de Radio-Canada au niveau du réseau
 6     anglais, CBC, au niveau de la radio et de la
 7     télévision.
 8  1555                 Puis, je désire m'inscrire peut-être
 9     au procès-verbal des rencontres en tant qu'une voix de
10     plus pour appuyer la programmation de Radio-Canada,
11     appuyer les gens qui font cette programmation, et puis
12     aussi un voeu de plus qui va s'exprimer pour que la
13     qualité qu'on retrouve à Radio-Canada va continuer dans
14     les années à venir et puis pour longtemps.
15  1556                 Au sujet du rôle de Radio-Canada,
16     j'ai peut-être quelques observations assez générales. 
17     Je n'ai pas préparé de présentation détaillée, mais
18     tout simplement en tant qu'avis personnel, j'ai le
19     sentiment qu'on en a pour notre argent avec
20     Radio-Canada.  C'est de l'argent qui est bien dépensé
21     et bien investi.
22  1557                 C'est un investissement dans notre
23     culture.  C'est un investissement dans notre avenir et
24     puis dans la culture, les arts, la programmation
25     artistique et culturelle, les chansons, tout ce qu'on


 1     retrouve à Radio-Canada.  C'est ça qui fait la culture
 2     d'une société, puis c'est ça qui est le sang qui
 3     circule dans les veines d'une société.  Puis, c'est
 4     très, très important.
 5  1558                 Je ne travaille pas dans ce
 6     domaine-là.  Je n'ai vraiment pas de connaissances
 7     particulières dans le domaine des arts et de la
 8     culture, mais j'aime toujours constater la
 9     programmation de qualité qu'on retrouve à Radio-Canada.
10  1559                 Au sujet des priorités stratégiques
11     ou peut-être les directions que l'organisation devrait
12     prendre, j'ai l'impression que Radio-Canada ne peut pas
13     être partout à la fois.  Radio-Canada ne peut pas tout
14     faire, ne peut pas être un intervenant qui va aller
15     viser la niche commerciale et en même temps le haut de
16     gamme.  Je pense que Radio-Canada doit se concentrer et
17     trouver son créneau où elle va pouvoir être efficace et
18     aller vraiment chercher un public.
19  1560                 Au niveau du haut de gamme, c'est là
20     que Radio-Canada devrait se concentrer, à mon avis:  la
21     programmation un peu plus sophistiquée, des émissions
22     qu'on ne retrouverait pas traditionnellement dans les
23     réseaux commerciaux.  Puis il y a un vide, surtout
24     peut-être en français.  Je parle surtout du réseau
25     français étant donné que c'est celui-là que j'écoute le


 1     plus au niveau de la radio et de la télévision et puis
 2     il y a un rôle très, très important qui est joué par
 3     Radio-Canada face à ça.
 4  1561                 Puis c'est important que la
 5     corporation continue d'être libre d'intervention
 6     politique pour pouvoir être indépendante et objective
 7     et puis continue à faire le même travail de qualité
 8     qu'elle a fait.
 9  1562                 Donc, c'est à peu près ça.  Je
10     souhaite que Radio-Canada puisse continuer à faire le
11     travail de qualité qu'ils ont commencé à faire et puis
12     ça ça vient tout simplement d'un citoyen ordinaire,
13     quelqu'un qui écoute la télévision dans son automobile
14     quand il s'en va travailler ou qui s'assoit le soir
15     avec un sac de chips et puis avec une bière de temps en
16     temps pour écouter la télévision et puis qui apprécie
17     beaucoup les choses qu'on retrouve là-dedans.
18  1563                 Merci beaucoup et puis si vous avez
19     des questions particulières ou si vous avez des
20     questionnements sur le rôle ou l'avenir de
21     Radio-Canada, je pense que tout le monde qui est ici
22     peut vous aider face à ça.
23  1564                 LA PRÉSIDENTE DU CONSEIL:  Merci,
24     Monsieur Robert, mais j'espère vraiment que vous ne
25     regardez pas la télévision dans votre voiture parce que


 1     ça serait un grand problème pour la circulation à
 2     Charlottetown.  Merci beaucoup.
 3                                                        2155
 4  1565                 MR. STEWART:  The next listed
 5     presenter has indicated that he will not be attending. 
 6     That is Mr. Patrick Kinnear.
 7  1566                 So I invite Ms Mary MacNeil to --
 8     MacNeil or MacNell, unfortunately this is a faxed copy,
 9     so -- to make her presentation.
10  1567                 MS MacNEIL:  Okay.  As a Canadian and
11     a past federal employee of Veterans' Affairs for 22
12     years, I could give many practical, if not patriotic
13     reasons for maintaining the Canadian Broadcasting
14     Corporation.
15  1568                 As a representative for the past four
16     years for the Public Service Alliance of Canada I have
17     seen first hand the demoralizing effect on workers and
18     communities by federal cut-backs, devolution,
19     privatization and the selling out of essential Canadian
20     services.
21  1569                 However, I would like to focus my
22     comments from the perspective as a parent of three very
23     creative children.  Instilling values and creativity
24     and pride in who you are and where you come from is a
25     challenge.  Acceptance of your roots and


 1     acknowledgement of your culture and opportunities at
 2     your local home base to share your talents are a few of
 3     the ingredients required to achieve this.
 4  1570                 I will focus on my two oldest, my two
 5     sons, that are now 19 and 22.  They only turn the radio
 6     dial to CBC.  That's very consistent in our house.  CBC
 7     TV with the odd deviation to MuchMusic is also a
 8     regular viewed channel in our home.  The CBC has
 9     definitely been a strong influence in my two sons'
10     lives.
11  1571                 My 19-year old son wrote a short
12     script at age 16 and was lucky enough to sell it to an
13     acting camp for teenagers in Kensington, P.E.I.  A CBC
14     reporter, Matthew Rainnie on "Main Street" interviewed
15     him concerning this script.  The recognition and the
16     support was very encouraging for my son.  Today he has
17     completed three scripts and he's 19.  He now does
18     occasional movie reviews on CBC also, he has that
19     opportunity on "Main Street".  His university studies
20     now centre around English and his career plans are in
21     the world of arts and entertainment.  There's no
22     question about that.
23  1572                 My oldest son is presently -- he's
24     just finished three years university and is applying to
25     continue his education in journalism at King's College. 


 1     He has worked with the medium and while for the last
 2     few years on the radio stations of the universities and
 3     he started writing articles at age 17 and since the age
 4     of 17 he's written for a music magazine in Cape Breton. 
 5     He just recently, in the last year, was the media
 6     coordinator for the Cape Breton Celtic Colours and I
 7     think he did a good job on that.
 8  1573                 His inspirations were love for
 9     traditional music and the local support and recognition
10     of such music which CBC always provided.
11  1574                 In closing, I would like to read a
12     short article my oldest son wrote when he was only 18
13     years old, it appeared in the "Guardian" in December
14     1995, it was after somebody wrote a criticism of the
15     CBC and I woke up one morning to read this in the
16     paper.
17                            "Visions of friendly giants and
18                            tickle trunk stands to my head.
19                            As I read the article ..."
20  1575                 I won't give the name of the other
21     person that was condemning the CBC.
22                            "... attempted to discredit the
23                            Canadian Broadcasting
24                            Corporation's contribution to
25                            society by way of the good old


 1                            tube, I would say that this is a
 2                            rather daunting task for an
 3                            individual who admits to not
 4                            being familiar with the station
 5                            and is willing to use every
 6                            unscientific method available. 
 7                            It is debateable whether or not
 8                            the CBC actually defines the
 9                            Canadian identity, but I would
10                            bet my baby finger that it is a
11                            medium that reflects our culture
12                            from sea to sea to sea.  For
13                            starters, has anybody ever heard
14                            of 'Hockey Night in Canada'? 
15                            Besides covering sports, the CBC
16                            provides an outlet for Canadian
17                            cinema like 'The Boys of St.
18                            Vincent, 'Gross Misconduct' and
19                            lest we forget 'Anne of Green
20                            Gables'.  Shows in the past like
21                            'Kids in the Hall', 'Codco' were
22                            not afraid to poke fun at
23                            ourselves.  And comics and 'This
24                            Hour Has 22 Minutes' continue to
25                            give us -- give comics a forum


 1                            to showcase their talents.  The
 2                            CBC can reflect our interesting
 3                            side and it is a shame that too
 4                            many are too Americanized to
 5                            realize this.  CBC's Peter
 6                            Mansbridge knows he could scoot
 7                            off to any of the big US
 8                            networks, but I'm sure he sees
 9                            'The National' as a high-class
10                            news program and not some trashy
11                            sensationalist ratings machine. 
12                            'The fifth estate' gives us an
13                            investigative depth in reporting
14                            that is second to none.  Heck,
15                            it was worthy of an Oscar,
16                            wasn't it?  'Venture' is there
17                            to give us the ins and outs on
18                            the business world.  Americans
19                            make better TV.  Where should we
20                            start?  A spin-off series of
21                            Joey Lawrence's 'Full House',
22                            'Saved By the Bell', don't
23                            forget those college years, 'Bay
24                            Watch', various soaps and most
25                            talk shows.  The large American


 1                            networks, NBC, ABC, Fox and CBS
 2                            shouldn't be compared with our
 3                            little CBC.  PBS would be the
 4                            closest thing and it is just a
 5                            matter of time before the CBC
 6                            will have to resort to its own
 7                            fund-raising drives to survive,
 8                            that is if people really don't
 9                            want the CBC to be there.  Do I
10                            smell another referendum?  Ian
11                            MacLeod(ph)"
12  1576                 Thank you.
13     --- Applause / Applaudissements
14                                                        2200
15  1577                 MR. STEWART:  Madame la Présidente,
16     that concludes the speakers for today -- or this
17     evening, rather.  And with your permission, I would
18     invite the CBC to make any comments that they choose to
19     do.
21  1578                 MS MITTON:  Thank you, I will be very
22     brief.  It's late, it's been a wonderful evening
23     however.
24  1579                 I would like to thank the Commission
25     again for making the effort to come to Charlottetown. 


 1     And I'm sorry, I'm tired.  I should introduce myself,
 2     it's Susan Mitton, Regional Director of Radio for CBC.
 3  1580                 I'm sure that Barbara Lowther(ph),
 4     our local station manager here and all the folks who
 5     work at the station have been heartened and humbled,
 6     frankly, by what they have heard tonight.  It's a huge
 7     responsibility, there are challenges ahead, but we
 8     believe we have the creative people with the heart and
 9     mind to continue to offer the best service we can to
10     Prince Edward Islanders, both at the local, regional
11     and national level.
12  1581                 The one other thing I would like to
13     say about an exercise like this is the CBC can go to
14     Ottawa and present and speak to the CRTC ourselves and
15     say, "Gee, people listen to us, the people that pay for
16     us, the people that own us, the people that listen and
17     watch us really do care about us and value the
18     service", but it always comes across sounding a little
19     self-serving.
20  1582                 So I think an exercise like this, I
21     commend you for going yourselves across the country to
22     11 locations and we certainly appreciate your presence
23     and we could never say it, frankly, as eloquently as
24     these people have spoken tonight.  So thank you all.
25     --- Applause / Applaudissements


 1  1583                 MS MITTON:  My colleague Jules
 2     Chiasson would just like to say a word.
 3                                                        2204
 4  1584                 M. CHIASSON:  Madame Bertrand,
 5     Monsieur Langford, je veux vous remercier de nous avoir
 6     donner l'occasion d'entendre des auditeurs et des
 7     auditrices, et des téléspectateurs et des
 8     téléspectatrices, de l'Acadie et des Maritimes
 9     s'exprimées sur les services de la radio et de la
10     télévision de Radio-Canada au cours de ces trois
11     derniers jours.
12  1585                 Nous avons bien écouté les
13     présentations qui vous ont été soumises et nous avons
14     noté tous les points qui vous ont été adressés.  Nous
15     apprécions les critiques positives, bien sûr, mais nous
16     avons également noté les problèmes qui devront être
17     rectifiés, qu'on devra travailler à rectifier.
18  1586                 Je voudrais aussi souligner que même
19     le Vice-président de la radio, M. Sylvain Lafrance,
20     était présent à Moncton.  M. Daniel Gourd(ph),
21     Directeur-général de la télévision était également à
22     Moncton.  Eux aussi ont entendu et écouté les problèmes
23     qui ont été soulignés quant à la programmation du
24     réseau et qui touchent spécifiquement le reflet des
25     régions et spécifiquement de l'Acadie.


 1  1587                 Je peux vous dire que la direction
 2     régionale est très sensible à ce point et également la
 3     direction nationale et nous allons continuer un
 4     dialogue pour améliorer ce reflet de la région à
 5     l'ensemble du pays.  Nous avons déjà commencé à
 6     travailler dessus depuis les derniers cinq ans.  Il y a
 7     du progrès qui se fait.  Ça prend du temps.  Mais avec
 8     les moyens et les ressources que nous avons, nous
 9     prenons ce problème-là très sérieusement.
10  1588                 Je veux vous remercier encore une
11     fois pour nous avoir quand même permis d'entendre
12     directement les gens du public s'adressés à vous et
13     également à nous.  Merci.
14     --- Applaudissements / Applause
15  1589                 THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  I
16     know it is late, but I would like to add my thanks to
17     every one of you for not only coming and meeting with
18     us and making your intervention, but you have spent the
19     evening with us and that was very important.
20  1590                 And yes, it is true that the same
21     message was repeated, but it was good to hear it in
22     your own words and you can be sure that not only will
23     it be on the transcript, but it will be something we
24     will carry with us going into the other cities and also
25     to the public hearing that will start on the 25th of


 1     May.
 2  1591                 It is true that we have heard
 3     ourselves, so it is much more than content and
 4     opinions, it is also about feelings in, I think,
 5     broadcasting in general, but much more so, I suppose,
 6     public broadcasting is about feelings.
 7  1592                 We will certainly, if you allow us,
 8     use your interventions and your opinions in terms of
 9     the dialogue that we will have with the CBC in Hull
10     when we discuss the renewal of their licences.
11  1593                 I would like, before I leave, to also
12     remind you of a few dates, because that was not your
13     last opportunity to participate in the process.  Your
14     interventions are part of the public process, but you
15     can also, on specific licences, send written
16     interventions.
17  1594                 The applications from the CBC will be
18     gazetted on the 27th of March.  So if you want to
19     consult it, it will be gazetted.  It will also be on
20     our Web site and it will be certainly available at the
21     regional office of the Commission in Halifax.  We have
22     an 800 number that I don't know by heart, but
23     certainly, Mr. Rogers could give it to you.
24  1595                 We will be starting the hearing on
25     the 25th of May and, as I said, you can be sure that we


 1     will share that with our colleagues when we go back
 2     home, but also that there will be echo to your opinions
 3     and voices into that hearing.
 4  1596                 I would like to thank the translators
 5     and the court reporter who have spent the day with us. 
 6     Without them there wouldn't be any written trace and it
 7     is very important in order to really do the proper echo
 8     into the public hearing.
 9  1597                 So to all of you, thank you very
10     much.  Have a good night and I hope we will be seeing
11     you soon.
12  1598                 Thank you.
13     --- Whereupon the hearing concluded at 2215 /
14         L'audience se termine à 2215

Date modified: