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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES SUBJECT / SUJET: PUBLIC CONSULTATION ON THE CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION (CBC)/ CONSULTATIONS PUBLIQUES SUR LA SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC) HELD AT: TENUE À: Delta Regina Hotel Hôtel Delta Regina Trentino Room Salle Trentino 1919 Saskatchewan Drive 1919, promenade Saskatchewan Regina, Saskatchewan Regina (Saskatchewan) March 11, 1999 Le 11 mars 1999 tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668 Transcripts In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of Contents. However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the public hearing. Transcription Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience publique ainsi que la table des matières. Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l'audience publique. StenoTran Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des télécommunications canadiennes Transcript / Transcription Public Hearing / Audience publique PUBLIC CONSULTATION ON THE CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION (CBC)/ CONSULTATIONS PUBLIQUES SUR LA SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC) BEFORE / DEVANT: Barbara Cram Chairperson / Présidente Commissioner / Conseillère Andrée Wylie Commissioner / Conseillère Vice-Chairperson, Broadcasting / Vice-présidente, Radiodiffusion ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS: Gary Krushen Director, Winnipeg Regional Office / Directeur régional, Winnipeg Peter McCallum Commission Counsel / Avocat du Conseil Rod Lahay Secretary / Secrétaire HELD AT: TENUE À: Delta Regina Hotel Hôtel Delta Regina Trentino Room Salle Trentino 1919 Saskatchewan Drive 1919, promenade Saskatchewan Regina, Saskatchewan Regina (Saskatchewan) March 11, 1999 Le 11 mars 1999 StenoTran ii TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES PAGE Presentation by / Présentation par: Mr. James Benning 6 Mr. Bruce Steele 16 Mr. Lorne Cherneski 26 Hon. Bernard Wiens 33 Mr. Steven Onda 48 Mr. Chris Axworthy 52 Mr. Gary Hyland 57 Mr. Tony Richmond 66 Mr. Brian Docjack 73 Mr. Victor Lau 78 Mrs. Barbara Stange 89 Ms Jennifer Stowell 94 Ms Elaine Driver 97 Mr. Al Taylor 104 Mr. Lee Boyko 108 Mr. Jonathan Bingham 114 Ms Ida Grosse 120 Mr. Brian Cousins 126 Mr. Norman Bray 135 M. Marcel Michaud 143 Mr. Andy Anderson and Mrs. Cathy Anderson 152 StenoTran iii TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES PAGE Presentation by / Présentation par: Ms Olive Lukey 161 Mr. John O'Donaghue 162 Ms Tasha Hubbard 167 Mr. Don Archbold 174 Ms Marge Robinson 180 Reply by / Réplique par: Mr. Bill Gerald 185 Presentation by / Présentation par: Ms Brenda Baker 194 Mr. Ron Clark 208 Mr. Dan Cameron 212 Ms Lucy Eley 217 Mr. Kevin DeWalt 221 Mr. Robert Waldegger 233 M. Raymond Morin 237 Mme Claudia Poirier 250 Mme Claire Bélanger-Parker 257 Mr. Armand Roy 263 StenoTran iv TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES PAGE Presentation by / Présentation par: M. Stephen Kenny 270 Mr. Jim Elliott 275 Dr. Bromley 286 Mr. Elmer Hildebrand 288 Dr. Edward Lewis 292 Mr. Darcy McKenzie 297 Ms Alex Zypchyn for Ms Karyn Zypchyn 302 Ms Cathy Currey 315 Reply by / Réplique par: M. Lionel Bonneville 320 StenoTran 1 1 Regina, Saskatchewan / Regina (Saskatchewan) 2 --- Upon commencing on Wednesday, March 11, 1999 3 at 1300 / L'audience reprend le mercredi 4 11 mars 1999, à 1300 5 1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good day, ladies 6 and gentlemen; bonjour, mesdames et messieurs. 7 2 Bienvenue à cette consultation 8 publique. Welcome to this public consultation on the 9 CBC. 10 3 My name is Barbara Cram, and I am a 11 CRTC Commissioner. To my left is Andrée Wylie, also a 12 CRTC Commissioner and Vice-Chairman of Broadcasting in 13 the CRTC. 14 4 We are here to gather your views and 15 comments on CBC radio and television: In your opinion, 16 how should the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation fulfil 17 its role in the coming years? 18 5 The CBC is a national public service, 19 broadcasting in English as well as in French. It plays 20 an important role in the Canadian broadcasting system. 21 Today many elements are constantly being added to the 22 broadcasting system, as new technologies multiply, 23 converge, open up new horizons and increasingly offer 24 new services. In this context, we want to know what 25 are your needs and expectations as listeners and StenoTran 2 1 viewers of CBC. 2 6 Given that, it is very important that 3 the Commission hears what you have to say. We must not 4 lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public 5 organization that serves Canadian citizens. In this 6 capacity, we are responsible to you. This is why my 7 fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to come 8 and meet with you to discuss these issues and why we 9 are holding this series of regional consultations from 10 one end of the country to the other, in 11 Canadian 11 cities, from March 9th to 18th. 12 7 These consultations are designed to 13 give you a chance on the eve of the new millennium to 14 express your opinion of the CBC's role, the programming 15 it offers and the direction it should take at the 16 national, regional and local levels. 17 8 Through these consultations we hope 18 to enter into an open dialogue with you and hear your 19 concerns. Your comments will form part of the public 20 record, which will be added to the record of the public 21 hearing on the CBC that will begin in Hull next May 22 25th. 23 9 At this upcoming hearing the 24 Commission will examine the CBC's application for the 25 renewal of its licences, including radio, television StenoTran 3 1 and its specialty services Newsworld and Réseau des 2 Informations. 3 10 You can also take part in that public 4 hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 5 If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the 6 specific licence renewals being examined when you file 7 your comments. 8 11 I would like to come back to today's 9 consultations. 10 12 Please allow me to introduce the CRTC 11 staff who will be assisting us today: Peter McCallum 12 is our legal counsel; Mr. Rod Lahay is with our 13 Broadcasting Department; and Gary Krushen, who is at 14 the entrance, is the Director of our Winnipeg Regional 15 Office. 16 13 Please feel free to call on them with 17 any questions you might have about the process today or 18 any other matter. 19 14 So that you will all have the 20 opportunity to speak, we ask that you please limit your 21 representations to ten minutes. As these consultations 22 are a forum designed specifically for you, and we will 23 want to listen to as many participants as possible, we 24 will not ask any questions unless we need 25 clarification. StenoTran 4 1 15 At the end of the session, 2 representatives from the local CBC stations will have a 3 chance to offer their views, as they are naturally very 4 interested in the issues we are discussing here today. 5 16 Before I start, I would like to ask 6 Mr. Lahay to go over some of the housekeeping matters 7 regarding the conduct of this consultation. 8 17 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Commissioner 9 Cram. 10 18 Before we get started, just a few 11 things I would like to bring to your attention. 12 19 First, we do have translation 13 services over here; in English on Channel 1, on French 14 on Channel 2. 15 20 We have been asked that you provide a 16 driver's licence or a major credit card, please, which 17 will be returned to you when you return the devices. 18 21 We will be conducting breaks 19 throughout the sessions today. We will try to bring to 20 your attention when the breaks take place, so that you 21 can step out for a few moments. 22 22 We have a comment sheet outside with 23 Mr. Krushen. We would like to hear your comments about 24 the process. Anything you have to say about it, we 25 would appreciate that. StenoTran 5 1 23 In order to talk, when you come 2 forward please push the white button on the microphone 3 so that you will be heard and so that your comments 4 will be placed on the official record with the 5 transcorders. 6 24 I will be calling the first group of 7 ten people to come forward, to come up here and sit 8 down. We would appreciate it, when you do your 9 presentation, if you would give your name so that it 10 will be placed on the record. The proceedings are 11 being transcribed, and we will have an idea of who said 12 what. 13 25 To reiterate what Commissioner Cram 14 said, there is a ten-minute limit. We actually do 15 respect that. It makes it a lot easier when 10 o'clock 16 comes around tonight. 17 26 I would like to call the first ten 18 presenters to come up and make yourselves at home. 19 27 We will take you in this particular 20 order: Richard Gustin or Jim Benning; Bruce Steele; 21 Lorne Cherneski; Hon. Bernard Wiens; Steven Onda; Chris 22 Axworthy; Gary Hyland; Tony Richmond; Brian Dojack; 23 Victor Lau. 24 28 Mr. Benning or Mr. Gustin, feel free 25 to start at your convenience. StenoTran 6 1 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 2 29 MR. BENNING: Good afternoon. SCN 3 would like to thank the Commission for coming to 4 Saskatchewan and providing an opportunity to discuss 5 issues concerning the Canadian Broadcasting 6 Corporation. 7 30 My name is James Benning, and I am 8 the President and CEO of SCN, Saskatchewan 9 Communications Network. 10 31 With me, on my left, is Richard 11 Gustin, SCN's Executive Director of Programming. 12 32 Madam Chair, to begin, I would like 13 to welcome you back to Saskatchewan. I believe this is 14 your first official hearing in Saskatchewan. We 15 welcome you back, and we look forward to great work 16 from you on the CRTC. 17 33 I want to also welcome Madam Wylie, 18 whom I have met before in previous hearings. I know 19 her judgment and discernment is very fair, and I know 20 her wisdom will be well used today. 21 34 The Canadian broadcasting system is 22 driven by commercial interests and exists primarily to 23 serve the money making requirements of those interests. 24 Programming and programming services which Section 3 of 25 the Act states should be available to all Canadians do StenoTran 7 1 not exist or have been replaced by something more 2 bottom line driven. 3 35 The mainstays of commercial 4 television programming consist of dramas, sports, 5 reality and tabloid programming designed to attract all 6 the important 18-34 demographic. Less desirable 7 portions of the audience are ignored. 8 36 CNN and the Playboy Channel are 9 available to pretty well every Canadian household 10 willing to pay for them, while broadcasting services 11 which speak to local, regional and educational issues 12 do not exist in many parts of the country. The 13 Broadcasting Act speaks to a system of public, private 14 and community educational broadcasters meeting a 15 variety of needs, but the actual Canadian broadcasting 16 landscape looks quite different. 17 37 Commercial radio's quest to attract 18 listeners has led to franchised format specific program 19 packages, talk radio Howard Stern "wannabes", and a 20 steady stream of contests to buy listeners. 21 38 In Regina there is a commercial radio 22 station running a contest where listeners call in with 23 stories of their most embarrassing moments. These 24 stories seem to feature urination and other bodily 25 functions. Community tastes and standards have been StenoTran 8 1 discarded. 2 39 In the land of commercial radio there 3 are no listeners under 12 or over 40. 4 40 SCN appreciates the chance to speak 5 to issues concerning public broadcasting and the CBC. 6 We could suggest that the Commission could conduct a 7 similar inquiry as part of licence renewal processes 8 for commercial broadcasters and specialty services, to 9 see how they have done in meeting the programming 10 requirements as set out in the Broadcasting Act. 11 41 SCN awaits the results of CRTC's 12 Canadian Television Policy Review -- that done under 13 Public Notice 1998-44 -- as the Canadian broadcasting 14 system available to most Canadians is considerably 15 different from that described in the Broadcasting Act. 16 42 SCN has spoken to some of these 17 issues in the past, and I refer you to our submission 18 to the Commission back in June of 1988. 19 43 Incidentally, it was called "Voices 20 in the Wilderness". 21 44 As a publicly funded regional 22 educational broadcaster, SCN has first-hand experience 23 in dealing with cutbacks and operating on a limited 24 budget. We sympathize with the management and staff of 25 the CBC as they try to forge a new path in Canadian StenoTran 9 1 broadcasting. 2 45 SCN does not want to say that CBC is 3 doing a bad job. In spite of a great deal of adversity 4 and uncertainty, many parts of, and people in, the CBC 5 are doing a superb job. 6 46 The cutbacks imposed on the CBC have 7 been substantial, and there have been times when the 8 Corporation appeared to be having a very difficult 9 time. 10 47 CBC radio seems to have done a fairly 11 good job of managing the changes and still maintains a 12 strong regional presence, featuring several hours per 13 day of live regional news and information programming. 14 This, combined with national news, information and 15 cultural programming, makes CBC radio a unique source 16 of regional and Canadian information, particularly when 17 compared to commercial alternatives. 18 48 CBC television does not seem to have 19 coped as well with the changing financial and 20 broadcasting realities. It has retreated into its 21 Toronto production centre and become just another 22 broadcaster. In spite of locating the television 23 studios on the top floor, CBC's Toronto building just 24 isn't tall enough to show us much of the rest of 25 Canada. Worse yet, the cutbacks to the CBC have been StenoTran 10 1 mirrored by CTV and CanWest Global as they consolidate 2 and centralize their operations. 3 49 All of this is happening at a time 4 when the Canadian film and television industry is 5 booming. Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver have become 6 major production centres and are pumping out 7 programming for Canadian, American and world markets. 8 Technological advantages and a growing population of 9 skilled information workers have made it possible to 10 produce high-quality programming almost anywhere in the 11 country. 12 50 CBC television has been slow to adapt 13 to this changing broadcasting environment. Over the 14 past few years the regions have been gutted, and 15 resources hoarded in Toronto. Sticking with 16 traditional methods of production, the Corporation has 17 been slow in coming to the realization that it can't be 18 everything for everyone. It continues to chase major 19 entertainment and sports projects trying to maintain a 20 mass audience while ignoring the informational needs of 21 many Canadians. 22 51 From SCN's perspective, it appears 23 that the regions and commitments to regional 24 programming must be listed as the casualties of the 25 cutbacks. StenoTran 11 1 52 CBC has become a major player in the 2 booming Toronto and Montreal production communities, 3 but it is only interested in regionally produced 4 projects when they are tailored to a national audience. 5 CBC Newsworld has done better, being an active 6 participant in the Canadian documentary scene. 7 53 Up until the cutbacks began, CBC had 8 a large well staffed plant in Regina capable of 9 producing in-house network quality programming. Since 10 then, the regional television production staff and 11 budget have been reduced to the point where it is 12 impossible to mount any kind of serious in-house 13 production in Regina. 14 54 CBC radio, being used to smaller 15 production staff and limited resources, still manages 16 to provide a mix of local and regionally specific 17 programming. 18 55 In the early 1990s, regional CBC 19 television was licensing regionally produced 20 independent productions for broadcast within the 21 region. However, about 30 months ago, as regional 22 programming windows ended, the CBC ceased to be 23 involved in projects for regional use. 24 56 What Saskatchewan is left with is a 25 CBC TV news unit, a handful of hard working radio StenoTran 12 1 people, and just enough skeleton staff to keep the 2 lights on in the building. 3 57 SCN has been able to rent surplus 4 office space and some production capacity for distance 5 education classes. Independent producers have been 6 able to rent television studio and production space for 7 non-CBC productions. 8 58 Following the CBC's lead, Global and 9 CTV affiliates in the region have cut back to the point 10 where one of Canada's three national television 11 networks have any ability or willingness to participate 12 in regional projects in Saskatchewan. 13 59 Over the past several years, Canada's 14 regional film and video industries have started to come 15 of age, propelled at least in part by the new Specialty 16 channels licensed by CRTC and their requirements for 17 Canadian content. Saskatchewan has been part of this 18 process with the film and video sector becoming one of 19 the fastest growing sectors in Saskatchewan's economy. 20 60 SCN, working with limited resources, 21 takes credit for some of the growth of the independent 22 film and video industry in the province. At a time 23 when other broadcasters have been eliminating regional 24 programming deals, SCN has been steadily increasing its 25 commitment to regional programming in terms of total StenoTran 13 1 dollar amounts, percentage of SCN's programming budget, 2 and total numbers of projects, in spite of having a 3 smaller budget now than five years ago. 4 61 Unfortunately, SCN cannot afford to 5 license or commission programming of interest to 6 Saskatchewan alone. Most of the programming produced 7 in Saskatchewan ends up being tailored for export as 8 well, and reflects less of ourselves. Saskatchewan 9 producers have to go to Toronto to make deals because, 10 except for SCN, they can't make them here. 11 62 Although the Saskatchewan film and 12 video industry is growing, it is still very hard for 13 our producers to tell Saskatchewan stories and speak to 14 Saskatchewan needs. 15 63 Even so, if it wasn't for SCN, there 16 would be considerably less regional television 17 production made or shown in Saskatchewan. Not every 18 province has an SCN. SCN deals with independent 19 producers from all over the country, and we know how 20 hard it is for many of them to put together deals on 21 programming in their own regions. 22 64 SCN also has a strong commitment to 23 quality programming for children aged 2 to 12. The 24 Knowledge Network in British Columbia, TeleQuébec and 25 TVOntario have similar commitments. SCN and the other StenoTran 14 1 educational broadcasters offer programming to address 2 the informational needs of seniors and aboriginal 3 people, as well, but not every province has a Knowledge 4 Network, an SCN, a TeleQuébec or a TVO. 5 65 Now when there are so many channel 6 alternatives, it is important for CBC television, as 7 Canada's public broadcaster, to focus on addressing the 8 specific areas as defined in Section 3 of the 9 Broadcasting Act, which are not currently being 10 provided by the commercial sectors. 11 66 Let the commercial broadcasters look 12 after sports, drama and much entertainment programming. 13 The CBC should be looking to address unfulfilled needs 14 in the areas of regional, informational, documentary, 15 and programming for portions of the audience not 16 currently being served. 17 67 CBC television needs to develop a 18 model of programming that is a mix of common 19 information programming relevant to all Canadians, and 20 regional and/or community-specific informational 21 programming for specific audiences and needs. 22 Resources need to be reallocated to address these 23 needs. 24 68 Not all of Canada is located in 25 Toronto. Other voices and perspectives need to be seen StenoTran 15 1 and heard. CBC television should be actively pursuing 2 regional partnerships in order to develop an ongoing 3 supply of varied programming produced in all parts of 4 the country. 5 69 MR. LAHAY: Excuse me. Could I ask 6 you to finalize, please. Your time has expired. 7 70 Thank you. 8 71 MR. BENNING: SCN would suggest that 9 the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation recast itself as 10 a source of information about itself rather than being 11 a traditional broadcaster or producer. Building on the 12 "Constellation of Services" concept, CBC should develop 13 the infrastructure to operate a variety of distribution 14 outlet and vehicles, working with the independent 15 production sector and other players in the industry. 16 72 In conclusion, SCN strongly affirms 17 the need for a healthy national broadcaster. CBC radio 18 should be commended for doing the good job it is doing 19 and be given adequate resources to continue. The 20 notion of merging CBC radio and television should be 21 avoided. 22 73 CBC television needs to reinvent 23 itself, re-supply and re-populate the regions, and act 24 like Canada's public broadcaster. Without a healthy 25 national public broadcaster and without regional and StenoTran 16 1 educational broadcasters, there is little hope of 2 achieving the vision and goals for the Canadian 3 broadcasting system. 4 74 Thank you. 5 75 MR. LAHAY: Thank you very much. 6 76 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 7 Benning and Mr. Gustin. It is nice to be home. 8 77 Mr. Lahay. 9 1323 10 78 MR. LAHAY: Thank you very much. 11 79 Our next presenter is Mr. Bruce 12 Steele. 13 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 14 80 MR. STEELE: Thank you. 15 Commissioners, staff of the Commission, audience 16 members, associates, my name is Bruce Steele. I am a 17 broadcast consultant. 18 81 I have worked in private, public and 19 educational radio and television, both local and 20 national, for 35 years. I am a staunch supporter of 21 public broadcasting, but I am truly saddened by what I 22 see as the inability of the CBC to perform its real 23 public function. 24 82 I had the great good fortune to work 25 with Graham Spry in the late 1960s and through the StenoTran 17 1 1970s. Spry ran the Canadian Broadcasting League, the 2 last incarnation of the Canadian Radio League, the 3 organization which he and Alan Plant founded in 1928 4 with the sole purpose of mustering support for public 5 broadcasting in Canada. 6 83 Neither man opposed private 7 broadcasting; rather, they proposed a blend, as Spry 8 would say, of the best of the American private model 9 and the British public model. 10 84 Let me pause briefly to assure you 11 that I am not about to re-tell tales of bygone days 12 when broadcasters were pioneers and drank their lunches 13 from vacuum tubes. I am going to use some of Mr. 14 Spry's ideas to examine what I think is wrong with the 15 CBC. 16 85 I will suggest steps that I think can 17 bring public broadcasting back to life. 18 86 I evoked Spry's name because Canada's 19 public broadcasting began with him and because little 20 of substance has changed in this debate or in this 21 nation since 1928. And I offer this as evidence. 22 87 In Spry's time Canada was the 23 second-largest geopolitical entity on the planet. Her 24 widely dispersed population totalled little more than 25 that of New York City and Los Angeles combined. Her StenoTran 18 1 resources were found deep in a formidable hinterland, a 2 great central plain, vast forest, shields and 3 mountainous regions. She is surrounded on three and 4 one-third sides by water and has northern reaches so 5 remote and cold as to be barely habitable. 6 88 Her two official and many unofficial 7 languages are in daily use. Her energy needs, industry 8 costs, food, clothing and housing requirements, in fact 9 her ways of working and living, are completely 10 different from our neighbour just to the south. And 11 none of that has changed in 70 years. 12 89 In Spry's heyday, as now, Canada's 13 private broadcasters were smitten with American 14 programs, which they rebroadcast willy-nilly and work 15 hard to emulate. It was for fear that Canada would 16 become awash in a U.S. radio tsunami that federal 17 coffers opened in the midst of the depression to 18 underwrite a series of radio plays and presentations on 19 Canadian themes, using Canadian actors, Canadian 20 writers, Canadian technicians -- and a foreign 21 director. But so it goes. 22 90 Spry and Plant saw such programming 23 as being a vital part of building a natural culture, an 24 identity, but there were two more reasons, principles 25 which drove them to promote a public broadcast centre. StenoTran 19 1 And the nurturing of Canadian culture leads from those 2 principles. 3 91 First on the list of principles is 4 the fact that the airwaves belong to the public of 5 Canada, pure and simple. They are a resource, like the 6 water, the forests, the minerals. They are part of the 7 central nervous system of the country. They pick 8 messages from everywhere and distribute them to the 9 nation. 10 92 But fundamentally, they are owned by 11 the citizens. 12 93 The second principle in public 13 broadcasting -- and I would like to thank whoever 14 printed this document (and it probably was me) for 15 losing the page I am trying to work from. But if I'm 16 such a damned good broadcaster, I should be able to 17 remember this, shouldn't I. 18 94 The second principle of this is that 19 the public broadcaster is there to provide a public 20 voice for the public, a voice in issues of concern to 21 all Canadians, a voice for people no matter where they 22 live in this country. 23 95 Most of us are easily smitten by 24 technology rather than philosophy, and today's 25 technology leaves no one outside the footprint of media StenoTran 20 1 at any time of day or night. I can personally tune in 2 to a Regina radio station after midnight and hear the 3 most listened to radio broadcaster in history. Art 4 Bell speaks live to over 10 million listeners from a 5 bedroom of his home on the high desert in Nevada. It 6 is amazing. 7 96 Just turn the dial and the CBC offers 8 programs from public broadcasters around the world. 9 Radio Two offers a world of music. CBC television and 10 Newsworld offer the world itself. It is fantastic. 11 97 But I know as a fact that day or 12 night, no matter which CBC service I tune to, I will 13 not find one radio or television series which is 14 produced in Saskatchewan and offered by the English 15 language public broadcast service to me and other 16 Canadians. 17 98 This lack of voice is the case in far 18 too many of this nation's regions. 19 99 Public broadcasting is not just about 20 seeing and hearing; it is about being seen and being 21 heard, whether you live in Toronto or Tuktoyaktuk, in 22 Montreal or Medicine Hat. It is about Canadians 23 talking to each other. 24 100 The promise of public broadcasting is 25 the promise of public voice. That is the issue which StenoTran 21 1 is at the heart of any discussion of the future of the 2 CBC. Today's CBC is in danger of becoming the 3 antithesis of that vision. 4 101 Before I left Toronto in the mid 5 1980s, I was a consultant to the Broadcast Centre 6 Development Project. Part of my contract was to help 7 to find the facilities required by radio in the new 8 broadcast centre, the building which replaced 26 other 9 CBC buildings in Toronto. 10 102 One day a directive came from above 11 to plan as if the entire system, 24 hours a day, seven 12 days a week had to come from Toronto. I believe that 13 everyone involved at the time considered this idea to 14 represent the worst case scenario. 15 103 Fifteen years later the imagined 16 scenario is coming true. More and more of the format 17 and content of the few remaining local shows on Radio 18 One is defined in, and provided by, Toronto. 19 104 Rumour has it that noon and afternoon 20 shows will soon become national feeds. Savings will go 21 to launch a new youth oriented Radio Three network. 22 105 Radio Two affords most regions almost 23 no local presence or input. Radio Two's goal is to 24 increase audience in the largest urban centres. Aside 25 from news, CBC regional television in most of Canada's StenoTran 22 1 regions has few, or no, local programming 2 opportunities. 3 106 As its funding is cut, the CBC's top 4 corporate managers focus resources on best bang for the 5 buck. Network production and co-production is done in 6 two or three centres. This again further diminishes 7 the chance that Saskatchewan, or other regional voices, 8 will be heard around the nation. But further, it means 9 that we can hardly find a way to speak to ourselves on 10 the regional service of the public broadcaster. 11 107 CBC television is proud of being a 12 prime purveyor of Canadian-made programs, mostly 13 produced in Toronto, Vancouver and Halifax, and this is 14 a laudable achievement for a broadcaster. But for 15 Canada's public broadcaster, it is only the base line. 16 In a satellite era, with services available from around 17 the planet, what else would we expect the national 18 public broadcaster to broadcast besides Canadian 19 programs? 20 108 CBC says it provides alternative 21 content. But as more channels come into our homes 22 every year, alternatives to mainstream broadcasts are 23 all over the dial. 24 109 As seen on the screen, CBC mirrors 25 the function, commercial content, promotional form and StenoTran 23 1 programming style of the mainstream private networks 2 and sometimes beats them at their own game. 3 110 Is that the purpose of a public 4 broadcast system? I don't believe so. 5 111 The need for a regionally-driven 6 non-commercial public broadcaster has not diminished 7 since 1928. It only increases as signals increase. I 8 believe CBC management has become confused and has 9 misplaced its mission and vision. It has forgotten who 10 owns it and who it serves. Its job is not to create of 11 our public broadcaster a Canadian voice; its job is to 12 give Canadians a voice on their public broadcaster. 13 112 No matter what its present 14 circumstances, CBC is too valuable a tool to lose. If 15 Chrysler can be salvaged, so can the corporation. The 16 CBC just needs some retooling. 17 113 What can be done so the corporation 18 and other institutions can fulfil the promise of public 19 broadcasting in Canada? Federal legislators and 20 regulators must clearly delineate between the roles and 21 structures of the public and private sectors. The 22 public broadcaster must be expected to facilitate and 23 encourage a diversity of expression by, and between, 24 regions as its prime directive, recognizing that in 25 this diversity is the strength and majesty of Canada. StenoTran 24 1 It must have the resources to do this. 2 114 Regional CBC stations must be 3 expected to provide broadcast time for regional 4 producers, and such programs should be geared to 5 achieve eventual national exposure provided by the 6 network. 7 115 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Hear! Hear! 8 116 MR. STEELE: Regulators must 9 recognize the diversity of Canada's regions and make 10 sure that regulations are sufficiently dynamic to suit 11 regional circumstance, as well as encourage provincial 12 and regional public broadcasters and partnerships for 13 public broadcasting. 14 117 Funding agencies must be expected to 15 participate in production of regional programming and 16 encouraged by knowing that there will be national 17 exposure for theses programs. 18 118 Finally, the CBC will have to remain 19 available to its viewers, no matter how its viewers get 20 their television signals. 21 119 Let me conclude. 22 120 Lately there has been much goodwill 23 in evidence regarding regional culture and values. In 24 an era consumed with issues of the global marketplace, 25 it is comforting to see that Canadians have had time to StenoTran 25 1 care for what is theirs alone. 2 121 Heritage Canada came here two weeks 3 ago looking for the pulse of Saskatchewan's cultural 4 institutions. I gave two messages to the politicians 5 on that panel: No. 1, that Section 3 of the Broadcast 6 Act stands sentinel for a promise which is not being 7 fulfilled; and no. 2, that to fulfil the dream of 8 hearing voices of Canadians from all regions on public 9 broadcasting will be to experience a new form of 10 culture in a modern democracy, a form a culture which 11 widely promotes the many and diverse values and 12 beliefs, achievements and visions of a nation and its 13 citizens. 14 122 How much is that kind of promotion of 15 self worth to the Canadian Federation at the turn of 16 the millennium? Messrs. Spry and Plant knew the answer 17 to that question in 1928. 18 123 I think it is time to revisit their 19 vision. 20 124 I thank you. 21 125 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Mr. Steele. 22 126 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 23 Steele. 24 1340 25 127 MR. LAHAY: Our next presenter is StenoTran 26 1 Lorne Cherneski. 2 128 I would reiterate to everybody to 3 please try to watch your ten-minute time limit. 4 129 Thank you. 5 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 6 130 MR. CHERNESKI: Madam Chairman, 7 Commissioners, my background is in education. I taught 8 school, firstly in this province, and subsequently 9 moved to Manitoba where I taught for part of the time 10 with the Department of Indian Affairs, the federal 11 department, and then finished off my career teaching at 12 a provincial school division in Swan River, Manitoba. 13 131 My views might be considered quite 14 parochial, maybe even radical, but I think I see some 15 of these ideas about public broadcasting from the point 16 of view of a retired teacher. 17 132 I have broken up my address into four 18 sections. 19 133 The first one: Reasons for 20 Sustaining the CBC. 21 134 My understanding is that the creation 22 of the CBC was a reaction to the widespread 23 availability of American broadcasts and a need to 24 expand Canadian broadcasting. A major goal in that 25 effort was to promote a Canadian identity. StenoTran 27 1 135 If that need was great over six 2 decades ago, I believe that need is even greater today. 3 There is a deluge of American culture and values 4 surging across the border into Canada through 5 television and other media. Because we have a smaller 6 population, and for other reasons, we as Canadians are 7 in danger of being overwhelmed by this cultural 8 onslaught. In order to maintain our identity we must 9 continue to produce, and even expand, production of 10 programs that reflect our Canadian reality. 11 136 If we flag in our determination to 12 maintain our Canadian identity, it will be only a 13 matter of time before the majority of our Canadian 14 population will identify with the cultural aspirations 15 of the United States. If this happens, there will be 16 little resistance to massive economic union, and 17 eventual political union, with the United States. 18 137 In the past, Canadians have been 19 warned of the possible loss of our sovereignty by 20 various academics and leaders. Former Prime Minister 21 Trudeau, in his book "With a Bang Not a Whimper", 22 acknowledged that Canada might not survive as a nation 23 if it could not solve the problems facing it. 24 138 Quite a few years ago, an American 25 government official -- I think it was John Foster StenoTran 28 1 Dollis(ph) -- said: There are two ways one country 2 could gain control of another country. The first way 3 was to use military force; the second way was to simply 4 gain control of the other country's economy. 5 139 I contend that the relationship 6 between Canada and the United States may very well be a 7 perfect example of the latter case. I believe that 8 losing our Canadian identity and adopting the cultural 9 values of the United States would be the first step in 10 the eventual dissolution of our nation. 11 140 When our nation was created in 1867, 12 it blocked the American aspirations for manifest 13 destiny in North America. It took tremendous resolve 14 and great expenditure of effort on the part of our 15 Fathers of Confederation to create the new political 16 entity called Canada. We, as Canadians, should remain 17 vigilant and guard against losing what our forefathers 18 achieved. 19 141 The second part is: Funding of the 20 CBC. 21 142 While I realize that these CRTC 22 hearings were not meant to be a forum for discussions 23 of CBC funding, it must be recognized that CBC cannot 24 properly carry out its mandate of promoting a Canadian 25 identity if sufficient funding is not available. StenoTran 29 1 143 My understanding is that at its 2 inception, the CBC was funded through a tax base. 3 However, as time progressed funding, for various 4 reasons, was diminished. This led to a reliance on 5 advertising to support some broadcasting. This 6 dependence on advertising has led to some problems, 7 such as promotion of undesirable programs. 8 144 Why should not the CBC obtain 9 adequate funding in order to promote its programs? I 10 do not buy the argument that Canada does not have the 11 resources to fund its broadcasting. When a necessity 12 is truly recognized and understood, the money for that 13 need can somehow be found. It is more a question of 14 perception and attitude rather than of means. 15 145 A couple of examples where Canada did 16 not hesitate to provide funding when the need arose 17 are: 18 146 (1) the completion of the 19 transcontinental Canadian Pacific Railway in 1885; 20 147 (2) the war efforts in both World 21 Wars. 22 148 Furthermore, Canada is not a poor 23 nation. It is an uncrowded nation, blessed with 24 immense amounts of natural resources that are the envy 25 of the world. If we, as a nation, are unable to profit StenoTran 30 1 from this abundance, perhaps it is due to the inability 2 of our leaders to manage our economy properly for the 3 benefit of all Canadians. 4 149 One possible reason for the drastic 5 cuts in CBC funding may be because of the criticism the 6 CBC has sometimes directed at the leaders of our 7 government. 8 150 In the March 8, 1999 Regina 9 Leader-Post article entitled "Time to Restore CBC's 10 Funding", Southam News columnist Lawrence Martin points 11 out -- 12 151 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Cherneski, 13 could I ask you to summarize, please. We are running 14 consistently over time. 15 152 MR. CHERNESKI: I have two more 16 sections. I will try to finish this section quickly. 17 153 Lawrence Martin points out that Prime 18 Minister Chrétien has been hostile to the CBC for 19 several years. The reason appears to be that the CBC 20 reported, sometimes negatively, on the Prime Minister's 21 less than stellar performances. If this assessment is 22 correct, our Prime Minister should exhibit some 23 statesmanship and overlook any slights he has suffered, 24 real or imagined. Hopefully, then, the role of the CBC 25 would be maintained and with proper funding, perhaps StenoTran 31 1 even augmented. 2 154 I will skip one part and go on to the 3 last one. 4 155 Some Ideas on the Future Role of the 5 CBC in Broadcasting: There is a marked decline in the 6 moral standards that broadcasting used to adhere to. 7 Some programs produced by private broadcasters are 8 saturated with sexual references. Some might call it 9 smut. 10 156 Various talk shows seem to depend 11 upon such material in order to command viewership. The 12 CBC should maintain an adherence to the higher ethic, 13 both in radio and in television. I am also confident 14 that if a referendum were held on the matter, most 15 Canadians would be in favour. 16 157 The standard that the CBC should 17 observe in the production of their programs is 18 suitability for family viewing. 19 158 With the torrent of Americana coming 20 across the border through various media, Canadians are 21 being subjected to a portrayal of American history, 22 heroes and exploits. In time, in absence of strong 23 Canadian images, Canadians, especially the younger 24 generation, may come to accept American images as the 25 ones to identify with. StenoTran 32 1 159 Therefore, I believe it is vital that 2 the CBC produce programs for radio and television that 3 highlight events in Canadian history, the lives or our 4 heroes and the exploits of Canadians. 5 160 One excellent TV program, "The Life 6 and Times", has produced admirable biographies on 7 notable Canadians, such as Anne Murray, Farley Mowat, 8 Glenn Gould, W.O. Mitchell and others. 9 161 For future programs, I would like to 10 suggest that personalities and events could be drawn 11 from the distant past as well as the present. In the 12 former category, the fur trade, the French-English 13 conflict and Canada's role in both World Wars offer 14 many opportunities to inform and remind Canadians of 15 their background and identity. 16 162 Canada has an exciting history and 17 there is a gold mine of material waiting to be used. 18 163 My purpose in this presentation today 19 is to state my belief that the CBC should continue to 20 be an instrument to inform Canadians of their heritage 21 and to promote Canadian identity. 22 164 Thank you. 23 --- Applause / Applaudissements 24 165 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 25 Cherneski. StenoTran 33 1 166 Mr. Secretary. 2 1345 3 167 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 4 168 Hon. Bernard Wiens, please. 5 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 6 169 HON. BERNARD WIENS: Good afternoon, 7 Madam Chairperson and Commissioner Wylie. Welcome to 8 Saskatchewan. 9 170 I am Bernie Wiens, Minister of 10 Intergovernmental and Aboriginal Affairs with 11 responsibility for telecommunications and broadcasting 12 policy in Saskatchewan. 13 171 With me today are my Deputy Minister 14 Brent Cotter and Senior Advisor on Telecommunications 15 and Broadcast Policy, Bob Hershe. 16 172 Before I begin, I want to thank the 17 Commission for holding this hearing in Regina. In 18 fact, I think it is especially apt that you are holding 19 this hearing here in Saskatchewan, a place that has 20 been called by people like Peter Gzowski the most 21 "Canadian" of provinces. So a good place to come. 22 173 And for people who don't want it to 23 come that far, I think there is recognition that 24 Saskatchewan is the home of much of the compassion for 25 which Canada is known and which makes Canada the best StenoTran 34 1 place in the world in which to live. 2 174 In the past the CBC has ensured that 3 the people, the events, and the traditions in every 4 part of Canada -- whether it is Saskatchewan or 5 Labrador or Montreal -- were known to every other part 6 of Canada. That is what has made the CBC a truly 7 national broadcaster. 8 175 To restore what has been lost and to 9 maintain what remains of this national relevance, the 10 CBC must listen to, must represent, and must broadcast 11 voices from every part of Canada, including those from 12 Saskatchewan. 13 176 Today, I will explore three general 14 themes that speak to the need for a strong regional 15 presence in the CBC: 16 177 First, how well is the CBC fulfilling 17 its role as the national public broadcaster serving the 18 public on a community, provincial and national level? 19 178 Second, what type of programming 20 should be provided by CBC radio and television, given 21 the growing number of alternative broadcasters? 22 179 And third, and most importantly, in 23 the new millennium how should the CBC begin to fulfil 24 its role? 25 180 I approach these themes not only as a StenoTran 35 1 Minister of the Crown, but as a farmer who has spent 2 many hours and years on the tractor listening to the 3 CBC as a welcome companion. 4 181 Before we begin to talk about the 5 future of the CBC, I would like to compliment the men 6 and women who work for the various divisions of this 7 broadcaster in Saskatchewan. Whether they work in 8 English or French, or in radio or television, I firmly 9 believe that they have demonstrated over and over their 10 commitment to this province, their creativity in 11 meeting new challenges, and their ability to maximize 12 the resources available to them when they have been 13 diminished. 14 182 While we may be advocating changes to 15 the CBC, we in no way wish to detract from the 16 professional contribution that these people continue to 17 make to our province. 18 183 Is the CBC performing its role as a 19 public broadcaster? 20 184 Any analysis of how we believe the 21 CBC is performing today as a public broadcaster 22 inevitably focuses on the recent strategies adopted by 23 the corporation to accommodate it $400 million in 24 budget reductions. 25 185 It is our belief that the directions StenoTran 36 1 taken by the CBC to cancel or sharply reduce almost all 2 provincial and local information and entertainment 3 programming for both radio and television service 4 negates, by definition, the CBC's role as a national 5 public broadcaster. 6 186 These strategies have failed to 7 consider the CBC's fundamental mandate to, and I quote: 8 "...reflect Canada and its 9 regions to national and regional 10 audiences, while serving the 11 special needs of those regions." 12 187 The challenge confronting the 13 broadcast sector, and the agencies that allocate public 14 funds to support this sector, is in ensuring that 15 Canadian content is reflective of all of Canada, 16 including the Prairies and Atlantic provinces, and that 17 it is created, distributed, and accessible by Canadians 18 in a variety of ways. 19 188 In order to accomplish this, a 20 healthy and thriving production community outside the 21 purview of the CBC's corporate environment is also 22 required. It is this larger community that will, in 23 turn, enable Canada to reap the benefits of cultural 24 and economic diversity and the jobs created by this 25 sector. StenoTran 37 1 189 The greatly reduced provincial and 2 community representation by CBC television impedes the 3 development of activities that contribute to the 4 creation of Canadian content, reduces the viability of 5 local production industries, and reduces the reliance 6 of this institution to regional audiences. 7 190 An "all Canadian" television schedule 8 has little meaning for our Canadian identity, or for 9 jobs in the regional film and video industry, if 10 various parts of Canada are systematically excluded 11 from contributing to that schedule. 12 191 While becoming "all Canadian", CBC 13 television has also become less relevant to the average 14 Canadian. Less than 10 per cent of Canadians now watch 15 CBC television and, as new television channels come on 16 stream, we have no doubt that this percentage will 17 continue to decline. 18 192 Canadian programming must represent 19 the views of all Canadians and must make a contribution 20 to their daily lives. If the information and 21 entertainment provided is not relevant to their daily 22 lives, viewers will turn to other broadcast sources, 23 inevitably turning away from the CBC. 24 193 We contend that by systematically 25 starving the local stations to feed the centre, CBC and StenoTran 38 1 SRC television have reduced their ability to fulfil 2 their obligations under the Broadcasting Act: namely, 3 to produce programs in the regions that reflect their 4 unique characters, while providing both a vehicle for 5 content delivery and a stimulus to local cultural 6 industries. 7 194 The shift to a centralized 8 infrastructure by CBC television has reduced contact 9 with the broader cultural base of Canada and its 10 remarkable diversity of people and perspectives. 11 195 In contrast, the CBC and SRC radio 12 networks have demonstrated that it is possible to 13 incorporate local participation within a national 14 context, and they have provided a vital communications 15 and cultural link between all Canadians. Radio, 16 despite its budget cuts -- which were taken contrary to 17 the recommendations made in the Juneau Report -- has 18 continued with a mix of national and local programming 19 on its daily schedule. 20 196 As examples, in English radio they 21 have raised awareness of our farming issues by holding 22 national programs like "Cross-Country Checkup" here in 23 Humboldt; they have maintained a strong First Nation's 24 presence with "Keewatin Country", and they have 25 supported Saskatchewan Arts through "Gallery". StenoTran 39 1 197 These programs have benefited 2 listeners in Saskatchewan, as well as those across 3 Canada. 4 198 Likewise, SRC radio has continued to 5 bring national francophone programming to Saskatchewan, 6 while covering local community events across Canada. 7 SRC's coverage of the changes in community governance 8 is only one example of how this division of the CBC 9 assists in maintaining the cultural identity of the 10 Fransaskois at a time when this support is critically 11 needed. 12 199 This mix has ensured that both 13 English and French language radio have maintained their 14 relevancy to the people of Saskatchewan, and to Canada 15 as a whole. 16 200 What type of programming should be 17 provided by CBC radio and television? 18 201 The relatively low production cost of 19 radio programming has allowed both CBC's and SRC's 20 radio networks to create a mix of relevant programming 21 to each region of Canada. In addition to the core 22 community, national and international news, these radio 23 networks have retained a unique blend of national and 24 local programs. 25 202 In Saskatchewan, for example, we can StenoTran 40 1 have noon hour radio programming which deals in large 2 part with relevant agricultural news, such as grain 3 prices, road conditions and changes that affect our 4 lives and the lives of farmers. Our sister province of 5 Alberta, while having the same base of national 6 programming, has local information which focuses more 7 on the needs of their individual residents, be they 8 sugar beet farmers or workers in the oil and gas 9 industry. 10 203 CBC and SRC's radio networks are good 11 examples of effective local participation within a 12 national context, and they have provided a vital 13 communications and cultural link between all Canadians. 14 We believe the public has clearly and strongly 15 expressed a desire to retain and strengthen the radio 16 networks. 17 204 We would ask the CRTC to do 18 everything in its power to ensure that this type of 19 radio programming, in English and French, is 20 strengthened. It cannot be allowed to be consumed by 21 the more glamorous and very much more expensive 22 television division. 23 205 In spite of the concerns I have 24 raised, we believe that CBC television continues to 25 have an important role to play in fostering Canada's StenoTran 41 1 national identity. Canadian content must permeate as 2 many broadcast venues as possible in order to reach as 3 many diverse audiences as possible. 4 206 This will require strong linkages in 5 collaboration with private broadcasters, educational 6 broadcasters and independent producers, as well as the 7 aggressive pursuit of air time on the growing number of 8 Canadian and foreign specialty channels. 9 207 Over the past five years, and most 10 recently with the approval of the Aboriginal Peoples 11 Television Network, the CRTC has granted licences to 12 numerous specialty channels with a Canadian focus. It 13 is our understanding that the CRTC has almost 50 more 14 television licence applications still before it. 15 208 Television, like new media such as 16 the Internet, has continued to fragment audiences as 17 programs cater to ever more specialized needs. One 18 might argue that rather than being a force for Canadian 19 unity, the growing multi-channel universe is in fact 20 reinforcing our differences. 21 209 Within this changing milieu, the CBC 22 television has adopted a very traditional commercial 23 model in attempting to compete with private networks 24 for ratings with sports and blockbuster-type dramatic 25 programming. While touting this "all Canadian" StenoTran 42 1 schedule, a large portion of its programming continues 2 to be very generic. Those programs, while produced 3 primarily by Canadians, continue to have a look and a 4 feel that is modelled on programming that is for sale 5 from the United States. 6 210 Given the ever growing number of 7 private broadcasters, all with Canadian content 8 requirements, the Province of Saskatchewan is beginning 9 to question the value of this approach by the CBC. The 10 consequence of CBC's current strategy is that it will 11 become lost in the myriad of channels on our dials. 12 211 Instead, we would agree with the 13 former Chair of the CBC, Patrick Watson, that the focus 14 of the CBC should be on creating television that 15 private networks cannot or will not support. The focus 16 of a public broadcaster should be on the public rather 17 than on private interests. 18 212 Private broadcasters have 19 demonstrated their desire to show Canadian sporting 20 events and to develop dramas. At the same time, they 21 have failed to produce the range of documentaries 22 needed to learn about the diversity and history of 23 Canada, to support the life-long learning needs of our 24 population, or to explore real health needs. 25 213 It is this type of programming, StenoTran 43 1 coupled with a continued strong emphasis on news and 2 current events from a Canadian perspective, to which 3 the CBC television should focus its resources. This 4 may not generate ratings, but it will certainly serve 5 the public, which pays for this service. 6 214 How should the CBC fulfil its role in 7 the new millennium? 8 215 Ensuring a Canadian presence, 9 particularly one that reflects all regions, is the 10 cornerstone of the Broadcasting Act and of Canadian 11 cultural policy. 12 216 To accomplish this, it is essential 13 to provide fair and equitable public funding to the 14 CBC's local production centres and to pursue the 15 development of a decentralized infrastructure. The 16 availability of Canadian content that reflects all of 17 Canada's cultures is inextricably linked to a healthy, 18 robust cultural and production industry across Canada 19 that encompasses film and video producers; artists, 20 writers and talent; new media software developers; and 21 the telecommunications and information technology 22 sectors developing new information services and 23 products for the information highway. 24 217 Public funds should stimulate 25 innovation in the broadcasting, new media, and StenoTran 44 1 telecommunications sectors. This activity must be 2 grounded in the regions with targeted funding 3 envelopes. This approach allows for the development of 4 local content that reflects regional culture and 5 supports local economic development. 6 218 It is with this context that 7 Saskatchewan makes the following recommendations: 8 219 First, as we noted previously, the 9 CBC and SRC's unique blend of radio programming should 10 be fostered and strengthened as much as possible. It 11 is these divisions of the CBC which epitomize Canadian 12 public broadcasting. 13 220 These networks have established a 14 service niche which no other private radio network has 15 duplicated. These networks truly have an all-Canadian 16 schedule which represents all areas of Canada. 17 Regardless of the new delivery technologies arising in 18 the new millennium, radio will continue to be a strong 19 force in the everyday lives of Canadians. 20 221 Again, we ask the CRTC to assist, 21 where possible, in ensuring that radio programming 22 resource allocations within the CBC remain sufficient 23 to ensure growth, sustainability, and continued local 24 representation. 25 222 Secondly, CBC television should focus StenoTran 45 1 its programming on the unique contribution that CBC 2 alone can offer to Canadian culture and identity: that 3 is, to inform and to enlighten. This can be 4 accomplished by providing Canadians with documentaries 5 and analysis of complex news and current affairs from a 6 Canadian perspective, recognizing that this perspective 7 cannot be generated wholly within one region or 8 province. 9 223 In addition, we would propose that 10 the CRTC establish terms of operation for the CBC which 11 would ensure a balanced and equitable approach to the 12 distribution of licences for individual productions. 13 The residents of provinces such as Saskatchewan should 14 not be excluded from providing their individual 15 perspectives because national funds are targeted on 16 blockbuster dramas. 17 224 In exploring alternative delivery 18 approaches, it is worthwhile to examine the success of 19 CBC's cable-distributed channels Newsworld and RDI, the 20 French language cable network equivalent. Despite 21 cable subscriber fees, both networks have continued to 22 retain a respectable audience share. The blend of 23 cost-effective programming that focuses on news 24 coverage, current affairs, and documentaries showcases 25 what CBC does best: producing programs that provide StenoTran 46 1 in-depth analysis of Canadian and global news and 2 issues from a distinctly Canadian perspective. 3 225 National and international news 4 coverage, current affairs and documentaries, in 5 combination with strong local and regional input and 6 co-production of other genres of programming, have the 7 potential to make the CBC and SRC networks more 8 relevant to Canadians than they are using their current 9 general programming approach. 10 226 In addition, we believe that the CBC 11 also has a role to play as a partner in the promotion 12 and distribution of Canadian films in a multi-channel 13 environment. 14 227 Eliminating some of the duplication 15 between the various divisions of CBC's television news 16 and current affairs operations would further enable 17 Newsworld and RDI to provide timely, effective and 18 efficient coverage of issues unparalleled by any other 19 broadcaster. 20 228 A new and highly focused mandate for 21 CBC and SRC television, attuned to current fiscal 22 realities and based on a Newsworld and RDI programming 23 direction, would provide all Canadians with a 24 value-added unique service that meets, in full measure, 25 the goals and aspirations of the Broadcasting Act. StenoTran 47 1 229 Thirdly, we would ask the CRTC to 2 encourage the CBC to expand its presence on the 3 Internet. Traditional forms of regulation, such as 4 content quotas, are ineffective in creating a Canadian 5 presence in areas of electronically delivered new media 6 such as the Internet. 7 230 As the Federal Government stated in 8 its recent strategy paper on electronic commerce: 9 "New media can be a new vehicle 10 to strengthen, not threaten, 11 Canada's culture, economy and 12 social institutions." 13 231 A Canadian presence on the Internet 14 can only be achieved through the existence of quality 15 information and "channels". We believe that the CBC's 16 current forays into Internet delivery have been very 17 successful. The ability to download video and audio 18 clips of the latest national and regional news, 19 whenever it is convenient for the consumer, is an 20 important service which can only grow and prosper. 21 232 In conclusion, I would like to 22 reiterate Saskatchewan's belief in the importance of 23 maintaining a strong Canadian public broadcaster. 24 While the role of the CBC will change over time as it 25 adapts to new consumer demands and to alternate StenoTran 48 1 delivery technologies, the CBC's fundamental mandate 2 to -- and I quote -- "reflect Canada and its regions to 3 national and regional audiences, while serving the 4 special needs of those regions", remains as important 5 today as when it was first drafted in the Broadcasting 6 Act. 7 233 Thank you. We look forward to 8 continuation of the discussions. 9 --- Applause / Applaudissements 10 234 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 11 Wiens. 12 235 Mr. Secretary. 13 1400 14 236 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 15 237 Steven Onda, please. 16 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 17 238 MR. ONDA: Thank you. Good 18 afternoon, Commissioners, staff, audience, Minister -- 19 the whole gang. 20 239 I am not as formally prepared. I 21 thought that I may earn my place at this table because 22 I am an independent producer, and have been so for 15 23 years here in Saskatchewan. I am proud to say that our 24 company has produced material for not only 25 Saskatchewan, but for Canada and literally the world in StenoTran 49 1 that period of time. 2 240 All those stories, be it in 3 documentaries or dramas or light informational, 4 originated here in the far off and lost hinterland of 5 Saskatchewan. Yet, by our partnerships with our 6 broadcasters, notably the CBC, we are able to find 7 audiences beyond Saskatchewan for that material, and of 8 recent beyond Canada's borders. 9 241 I think you will hear over and over 10 again support for the CBC and for a national 11 broadcaster. More and more, our nation is defined by 12 how it perceives itself; and without CBC providing us 13 that opportunity of Canadian input, it is hard to 14 maintain the perception of a country. It is critical, 15 the CBC. 16 242 I also realize that the 17 recommendations that come forward often are loud to say 18 that we need more funding for the CBC, we need more 19 Canadian programming on CBC, we need to be more a 20 public broadcaster. 21 243 I support more of a hybrid approach, 22 because you cannot be asking for something and taking 23 away that very entity's capability at the same time. I 24 understand that half of the funding of the budget for 25 television at the CBC does still come from its revenues StenoTran 50 1 in selling ad inventory. This is a fact. 2 244 So if you want more Canadian 3 programming and you want it to be less a carrier of 4 commercial inventory advertising, the two just don't 5 add up. 6 245 I see more a model where a hybrid 7 example, if you may, is where we have blocks in the 8 schedule where there is no advertising. 9 246 For instance, one place that is very 10 under-served, I feel, is in the youth programming where 11 we are looking at the after school slot. Right now, 12 CBC limits itself because it wishes to sell advertising 13 in that area. It limits itself to its audience; it 14 does not program for under 12-year-old viewers. 15 247 Whereas in the evening slots, where 16 advertising around the supper hour and in the early 17 prime time can provide a real stream of revenue -- and 18 that's where we see the stream of revenue coming from 19 -- let's not take that away. 20 248 The regional presence has gone away, 21 most definitely, and the Commissioners themselves must 22 be more than aware of the changes at CBC. 23 249 What used to happen was that there 24 was little mix of programming slots. Again, air time I 25 see very much as inventory. Right now, we are back to StenoTran 51 1 24 hours of air time for CBC television English 2 services. 3 250 At one time, CBC was quite innovative 4 in finding more than 24 hours in the day. How they did 5 that was something called metronet or regional slots, 6 which allowed for regional programming to play to its 7 regional audience. Should that program be of strength 8 and interest to the nation, it would find its way into 9 the national schedule. 10 251 Those regional slots or metronet seem 11 to have almost totally disappeared, leaving us 12 half-hour slots after hockey games nowadays -- if there 13 is no overtime. 14 252 As a practical simple suggestion, we 15 would like to see CBC find its innovative way of 16 creating more than 24 hours of programming in a day. 17 253 The growth that has happened across 18 our nation -- I look at Saskatchewan as a microcosm. 19 Ten years ago we were not really providing a lot of 20 material on the independent sector. We were seeing 21 more material, relying more on the plant itself here, 22 notably in Regina. 23 254 What has happened now is that it is 24 much more sophisticated. As a public broadcaster, CBC 25 works closely with private entities and has become very StenoTran 52 1 innovative in that area. I salute them in their 2 willingness to co-exist, co-work and co-produce. 3 255 I think a lot of what I would like to 4 say has been said better by Mr. Steele, the Minister, 5 Mr. Benning, and other presenters, so I won't go into 6 general statements but wanted to pinpoint two or three 7 small ideas that I hope will begin to boil into that 8 soup of suggestions and responses that you are 9 receiving. 10 256 Unless the Commissioners have any 11 questions for me, I think I have completed. 12 257 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 13 Onda. 14 258 Mr. Secretary. 15 1408 16 259 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 17 260 Chris Axworthy, please. 18 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 19 261 MR. AXWORTHY: Madam Chair and 20 Commissioners, it is a pleasure for me to add the voice 21 of welcome from Saskatchewan to you, and to thank you 22 for coming to our community to hear our views. 23 262 I assure you I will stick within my 24 ten minutes, primarily for two reasons: One is that I 25 have one relatively simple and straightforward point to StenoTran 53 1 make; and the second is that I have a plane to catch at 2 3 o'clock. 3 263 My message, as I say, is relatively 4 straightforward but comes both as a Member of 5 Parliament for Saskatoon and a citizen in Saskatoon, 6 and primarily deals with the closure, now eight or nine 7 years ago, of both CBC TV local programming, but 8 primarily newscasting from Saskatoon. 9 264 At the time that I made a 10 presentation in Ottawa to your colleagues, the same 11 closure was taking place in a number of other 12 communities. I can remember at least Windsor, Calgary 13 and I think Victoria. Each person who spoke on that 14 question pointed out -- in fact, predicted -- what 15 happened: that not only would the citizens of, in my 16 case, Saskatoon be ill-served by such a move -- an 17 effort to provide newscasting for the whole province 18 solely from Regina -- but also audiences would decline 19 significantly. 20 265 Both of those things happened. 21 266 That decision was, as you will 22 recall, made ostensibly as a result of significant 23 budget cuts -- and CBC has undoubtedly suffered 24 severely from that -- but also more importantly made as 25 a result of decisions in Toronto by the CBC to StenoTran 54 1 implement its budget cuts at the expense of the 2 regions. 3 267 I don't think I need to go into very 4 much detail about what took place; but not only were 5 there important implications for employees who were 6 fired just before Christmas, there were other major 7 negative spinoffs in our community too. Business 8 suffered in various ways, but in particular there was a 9 significant negative impact on the cultural and social 10 life of our community. 11 268 And when I say "our community", I 12 mean not only Saskatoon, but northern and central 13 Saskatchewan also. 14 269 We, as many have said, live in a very 15 large country and all agree that CBC and SRC helps us 16 to find what it means to be a Canadian and helps us to 17 explain ourselves to other Canadians and explain other 18 Canadians to ourselves. We in the regions and in the 19 smaller communities must have the opportunity to 20 contribute our distinctive voice in that mix. 21 270 Minister Wiens mentioned the 22 significant contribution to much of what defines Canada 23 coming from Saskatchewan, and it is therefore somewhat 24 ironic that one of the regional cuts should be so 25 significant to our province and thereby, by StenoTran 55 1 implication, to the country. 2 271 The identity of our communities, 3 Saskatoon or Saskatchewan, or indeed any other 4 community for that matter, cannot, as we know, be 5 manufactured in Toronto and broadcast to the rest of 6 the nation. It must be woven from many threads, from 7 many centres reflecting the important and valuable 8 diversity in our country. 9 272 It is of course my view, not only as 10 a Member of Parliament from Saskatoon but as a resident 11 of Saskatoon, that there is more Saskatoon can do, 12 should CBC permit it to do so, in this regard. 13 273 Our artists, our community 14 organizations, our people have therefore had a greater 15 difficulty in having their voices heard, not only in 16 Saskatoon and northern and central Saskatchewan, but 17 also by the rest of the country, and also receiving 18 from the rest of the country news and views through the 19 sieve of Saskatoon presenters and reporters. 20 274 We have extremely well-qualified, 21 capable and creative personnel in Saskatoon who feed in 22 to the provincial and national network; but what we 23 don't have since those major cuts is a newscaster in 24 Saskatoon, an anchor in Saskatoon presenting those 25 views to Saskatoon people. StenoTran 56 1 275 It might come as a surprise to many, 2 but people in Saskatoon still talk of Kathy Little, who 3 was the anchor for many, many years in Saskatoon, and 4 talk of her in terms of a significant loss to our 5 community. It was more than just a newscast; it was a 6 reflection of our community to all of us and from all 7 of us. 8 276 I would also reiterate the points 9 made by all those who came before -- and I suspect by 10 all those who will come after -- as to the importance 11 of regional programming, not only newscasting. I just 12 wanted to focus on that particular case. 13 277 It is important to not only those of 14 us who live in Saskatchewan but to those of us who have 15 the opportunity to live in other parts of the country 16 that we reflect ourselves in the programming from 17 across the country. 18 278 I would finally point out, as I am 19 sure you are more than well aware, that the 20 Broadcasting Act really does place a responsibility on 21 the CRTC to reflect the importance of local television 22 to ensure that the CBC does in fact fulfil its 23 legislative requirements to draw programs from local, 24 regional, national and international sources, each with 25 an equal weight, and that there are distribution StenoTran 57 1 priorities for Canadian, and in particular local 2 Canadian, stations. 3 279 CBC, as you are well aware, is 4 charged with "reflecting Canada and its regions to 5 national and regional audiences, while serving the 6 special needs of those regions". And I quote there. 7 280 I will close there by asking you to 8 fulfil that responsibility with energy and vigour, as I 9 am sure you will, to ensure that Saskatoon is reflected 10 in the mix of CBC's activities in the way in which it 11 should and to recognize that the cuts made some eight 12 or nine years ago have had a significant negative 13 impact that should be rectified. 14 281 Thank you. 15 --- Applause / Applaudissements 16 282 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 17 Axworthy. 18 283 Mr. Secretary. 19 1418 20 284 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 21 285 Gary Hyland, please. 22 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 23 286 MR. HYLAND: Good afternoon, Madam 24 Chair, Commissioner. 25 287 As we strain your listening StenoTran 58 1 capacities this afternoon, you will be pleased to know 2 that I have been editing my speech and a page and a 3 half have gone so far. It might get more creative as 4 we go along. 5 288 It wasn't the best part; it was just 6 all the jokes. I will tell them to you after. 7 289 The Festival of Words was founded in 8 1997. It is a provincially-registered non-profit 9 volunteer organization that operated year-round to 10 celebrate the many imaginative uses of language and to 11 promote creative writing and life-long reading. 12 290 Our chief program is the three-day 13 summer festival in Moose Jaw that last year attracted 14 over 2,000 people from all around the province and 15 beyond. With 142 volunteers and a part-time staff of 16 three, we also operate ten other programs throughout 17 the year. 18 291 There are two unique things about our 19 program, and then I will get to how we connect with the 20 CBC. 21 292 We design programming for children 22 and teens, as well as adults, and we include not just 23 books but all aspects of creative word use in all forms 24 of cultural expression, such as story-telling, drama, 25 film, song writing and even media commentary. StenoTran 59 1 293 In our work, we are much indebted to 2 the CBC. At the same time, we are concerned about 3 developments at the corporation that we believe 4 adversely affect its delivery of these services. 5 294 There are four areas from which we 6 benefit from the CBC. 7 295 Our raison d'être: that use of 8 imaginative language is a major component of CBC 9 programming, programs such as the following -- and I 10 will mention just a few -- directly contribute to the 11 creation of an intelligent, well-informed audience 12 which we look to to draw the bulk of our audience. 13 296 On national radio shows such as "This 14 Morning", "The Arts Report", "Between the Covers"; on 15 national TV, "Rough Cuts" and "On the Arts"; on 16 regional radio, "Gallery" and "The Arts Update"; on 17 regional TV, "Arts Reel". 18 297 Without the support for Canadian, and 19 in particular Saskatchewan, writers and the 20 appreciative audiences that these programs and others 21 like them create, our task of drawing crowds of people 22 who relish the imaginative uses of language would be 23 far more difficult. 24 298 Most of these people are devoted 25 readers, writers and supporters of Canadian culture StenoTran 60 1 whose interest is sustained in good part by the CBC. 2 299 The CBC provides a means of reaching 3 the most crucial segment of our audience through its 4 coverage of events and stories related to us. For 5 instance, items on or about the Festival have appeared 6 on "Midday", "Rough Cuts", "Gallery", "The Arts Reel" 7 and "The Arts Report". 8 300 Private electronic media, for the 9 most part, do not consider cultural developments 10 inherently newsworthy. 11 301 In the span of time that we receive 12 the above coverage, only two local cable stations and 13 one local TV show on a private station have given the 14 Festival any attention. And that is not through lack 15 of trying on our part. 16 302 CBC news and arts staff have also 17 been supportive by soliciting stories from us and 18 reporting our media releases. Recently, we exchanged 19 established linkages between our web site and that of 20 the CBC Saskatchewan site. 21 303 Last year the CBC was an official 22 media sponsor of the Festival in return for access to 23 Festival programs and for taping and promotional 24 displays, the CBC provided us with coverage valued at 25 over $30,000; namely, the airing of 442 video promos. StenoTran 61 1 304 In addition, we received on-air 2 interviews and giveaways in both TV and radio. We are 3 very appreciative of this valuable assistance. 4 305 It should be noted that one private 5 broadcaster, CKCK-TV, has also been an active supporter 6 of the Festival, giving us thousands of dollars worth 7 of TV spots, an on-air interview and give-away segment. 8 306 As a non-profit agency struggling to 9 keep our books balanced, we are dependent upon donated 10 support of this kind. 11 307 Because the CBC provides numerous 12 forums for the constructive critical and creative uses 13 of language, and because many of its programs actually 14 highlight books and authors and Canadian films and 15 music that are mostly ignored by private broadcasters, 16 the CBC has contributed greatly to the careers of many 17 of feature presenters; the likes of Guy Vanderhaeghe, 18 Rudy Wiebe, Lorna Crozier, Brenda Baker, Gail Bowen, 19 Maggie Siggins, Louise Halfe, Sandra Birdsell, Rosemary 20 Sullivan and Ian Tyson. 21 308 The reputations of these artists have 22 been enhanced by CBC exposure, thus making them more 23 appealing to our patrons. 24 309 Most of the members, the team that 25 develops our program, are avid CBC listeners. Thus, it StenoTran 62 1 is not surprising that many of our ideas for guests 2 come from CBC broadcasts. In fact, some of our 3 presenters have been, at one time or another, CBC 4 staffers. Examples are Dennis Gruending, Rex Murphy 5 and Peter Gzowski. 6 310 We were particularly pleased to host 7 a one-hour segment of the last edition of "Morningside" 8 in Moose Jaw. This program set up a fundraiser for the 9 Festival and was instrumental in us getting launched on 10 a strong financial footing. 11 311 A major event at our 1999 Festival in 12 July will be the CBC radio program "Madly Off in All 13 Directions". Two segments of the show will be taped at 14 the Festival, providing us with yet another opportunity 15 to raise funds while offering a night of comedy by 16 nationally renowned comedians. 17 312 This event will be an important 18 fund-raiser for us, so we are profoundly grateful to 19 the show's producer Brian Hill and his staff for making 20 these arrangements. 21 313 We trust a relationship of 22 appreciation for, and dependence upon, the CBC is 23 clear. It is the vital nature of that relationship 24 that prompts us to express a few concerns. 25 314 Our chief concern that the Federal StenoTran 63 1 Government has not delivered on its clearly stated 2 promise to deliver stable long-term funding to the CBC. 3 Instead, as you will be hearing time and time again, I 4 am sure, there have been drastic reductions in the 5 allocations to the corporation that have led to 6 inevitable dilutions of program content and quality. 7 Bluntly stated, cuts to the CBC jeopardize one of the 8 few meaningful providers of Canadian culture and 9 creators of national awareness that this country has. 10 That misguided and occasionally peevish politicians 11 would risk this pivotal institution to save what amount 12 to pennies in a now plump public purse is aggravating. 13 315 The indefensible cuts of the last few 14 years should be restored in full. 15 316 In recent years regional programming 16 vital to the survival of artists in this part of Canada 17 has been severely cut back. Generally, we hear fewer 18 and skimpier newscasts, more repeated programs, more 19 filler wire service stories of questionable relevance. 20 Local program producers are struggling admirably with 21 crippling resources and staff cuts, but the results are 22 evident in fewer programs of diminished quality. 23 317 Centralizing program production in 24 Toronto saves money at the expense of creating 25 alienation in the regions. Yes, we need content that StenoTran 64 1 enhances Canadians' sense of national awareness and 2 identity, but we also need the living pulse of locally 3 produced programs to catch the eyes and ears of people 4 who are often immersed in their own regional concerns. 5 318 CBC once filled this balanced mandate 6 admirably. Why should we be talking nostalgically 7 about the golden age of public broadcasting in this 8 prosperous country. 9 319 Regional programming is the idea way 10 to nurture local writing, film-making and musical 11 talent that is shut out of the private sector. 12 Toronto-centred programming and repetitious logging 13 produce the same unfortunate effect. Program and staff 14 cuts have been applied more severely in the regions in 15 order, one presumes, to shore up central interests, 16 including the administrative staff. 17 320 We have a plethora of commercial and 18 special interest stations swamping us with formats 19 developed south of the border. We don't need more 20 lowest common denominator or mediocre broadcasting. We 21 need stimulating alternative programming, intelligent 22 talk, dramas, thought-provoking information, music that 23 is not mainstream, and a variety of viewpoints 24 incisively presented. 25 321 Few other large scale broadcasters StenoTran 65 1 exhibit anything approaching a commitment to Canadian 2 programming. If the CBC with its national networks 3 does not do so, the job will not be done adequately, if 4 at all. 5 322 The CBC should be commissioning works 6 by Canadians for Canadians, as well as setting up 7 partnerships and soliciting freelance input to create 8 an eclectic mix of broadcasting that speaks to and 9 nurtures the mind and soul of this nation 24 hours a 10 day, with the fewest possible repeat hours, and with 11 strong use of material that originates in the regions. 12 323 In conclusion, our interest is 13 self-serving to the extent that the Festival of Words 14 relies on the CBC in ways that we have outlined just 15 now. But we submit that in this respect, and in our 16 expression of concern, our interests are coincident 17 with those of the majority of Canadians, whether they 18 articulate their concerns or not: We want the CBC out 19 of the intensive care ward, restored to health, and 20 returned to the Canadian people. 21 324 Thank you for this opportunity. 22 --- Applause / Applaudissements 23 325 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 24 Hyland. And for your alliteration: plump public 25 purse. StenoTran 66 1 326 MR. HYLAND: I'm glad you got that 2 down. 3 327 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary. 4 1430 5 328 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 6 329 Tony Richmond, please. 7 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 8 330 MR. RICHMOND: Madam Commissioner, I 9 am a humble listener from Prince Albert, professional 10 forester by occupation; 54 per cent of this province is 11 covered in tress. I just say that to the farmers 12 amongst you. 13 331 I am here for only one reason. I was 14 scared stiff when I heard about this session today, 15 that you would come here and there would be perhaps one 16 or two people. But I am totally delighted to see the 17 representation that we have ahead of us. 18 332 I can tell you that I can cut my 19 presentation short, because I am totally delighted at 20 the input from the Hon. Bernie Wiens, from Bruce Steele 21 beside me, and from Mr. Axworthy and others. 22 333 The stuff from the heart and the soul 23 I will leave behind. 24 334 I travel a great deal. The CBC feeds 25 my intellect. It is my soul, and it contributes to my StenoTran 67 1 self-awareness. Without the CBC this country would be 2 diminished significantly. 3 335 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Hear! Hear! 4 336 MR. RICHMOND: Having said that, I am 5 trying to put myself now in your shoes. What the heck 6 do we do with diminishing dollars, signals coming in 7 from outer space? How do we maintain this integrity 8 without being totally washed away by a thousand 9 channels? 10 337 This is just me. I ride around in my 11 truck. I do 50,000 clicks a year. Once I got trapped 12 in to coming here today, I thought: "What are we going 13 to do about the future?" 14 338 So we have to embrace the future, 15 Madam Commissioner; we can't be scared. The future is 16 not necessarily bringing the past forward. It is maybe 17 just losing the past and bringing technology into 18 place. The wonderful, wonderful people at CBC that 19 keep me going sometimes when I am up to my eyeballs in 20 snow or mud or ice, digging out the truck, and the 21 unions that go along with these wonderful people; the 22 Sheila Coles(ph), everybody at CBC Regina. Tremendous 23 people. 24 339 But sometimes CBC Regina doesn't 25 understand that the north perhaps starts at La Ronge StenoTran 68 1 and not at the Legislature here. 2 340 Regionally, we have to stay with 3 quality production. That's as I see it, riding around 4 in my pick-up up north. We have to stay with quality 5 production. There might be less of it, but what we do 6 have is quality. 7 341 We have to emphasize the regional 8 highlights. We have had lots of really first-class 9 commentary on that today. 10 342 Let's try to do something more for 11 our young people. Count the number of white and grey 12 heads in this audience today. 13 343 We have to continue to promote 14 interaction through the Internet and phone-in shows, 15 with the CBC brass, so that we keep them honest. 16 344 I was coming out of Cumberland House, 17 and Perrin Beatty and Alex Frame(ph), and a whole bunch 18 was on the CBC radio "Cross Country Checkup". It 19 wasn't "Cross Country Checkup" that day. 20 345 I was coming out of Cumberland House, 21 soaked to the skin. It was great. There was one thing 22 they never brought up. There was all sorts of bitching 23 and complaining about the amount of money going into 24 the CBC, but no one brought up that frightful vision of 25 someone fooling around with the Broadcasting Act and StenoTran 69 1 fooling around with the President of the CBC's right to 2 govern, and that sort of thing. No one brought that 3 up. 4 346 Madam Commissioner, I think those of 5 us at the bottom end of the food chain require that the 6 CRTC prevent let's say hostile takeovers. 7 347 I think the Internet is a growing 8 entity. It is a tremendous feedback tool. Don't worry 9 about competition from across the borders. Don't put 10 up artificial barriers to external signals. CBC 11 programming and other Canadian programming will hold 12 its own if we maintain excellence. 13 348 Go after the intellect. Challenge 14 the listener and the looker. Your audience will become 15 global. Let's not look inwards; let's look outwards, 16 folks. We export everything else. We can export our 17 culture. Our culture can become missiles, and we will 18 meet the other incoming missiles and knock them out of 19 the sky. In the CBC and in other radio and television 20 entities across this nation we have the talent, and we 21 have the capacity. 22 349 I have been in this country. This is 23 my 50th year, so I have some right to say that. 24 350 Don't shut down the foreign bureaus. 25 Tell that to the CBC brass. The excellence from StenoTran 70 1 foreign journalists has to be maintained. We can't cut 2 those people down. 3 351 We export guns; we export butter. 4 What else are we going to export here? Oh yes, 5 peacekeepers. 6 352 If we do that, we have to have a 7 journalistic mechanism overseas that can feed back to 8 us the results of those kind of policies. 9 353 Don't touch CBC Regina. Wonderful 10 people. Sheila Coles(ph) keeps me going in the most 11 incredible of times; and the rest of the crew, the rest 12 of the buddies in CBC Regina. Try and get the money 13 back to open up Saskatoon again. 14 354 Tom Roberts was missing today. That 15 guy goes fishing or canoeing or skiing, or something. 16 But he was missing today. So find him, CBC Regina. 17 355 I have to skip to my version of the 18 options. And I will talk TV, because I think Sheila 19 Copps understands that CBC radio is so precious she 20 wouldn't touch it. 21 356 Option one is a fully serviced entity 22 competing head-on with private broadcasters. It is 23 sort of what is going on today but with diminished 24 money. We raise some income from selling the series 25 internationally, and with more regional programming, to StenoTran 71 1 pay for this you have to jack up the advertising. 2 357 That is option one. 3 358 The option two is the PBS model, and 4 I just couldn't go through one of those fund-raising 5 efforts. Could you? I could do it once, but that 6 would be it. 7 359 Option Three: Keep the CBC Newsworld 8 as the engine of the public system. That's what you 9 do: keep CBC Newsworld as the engine of the public 10 system and then create, promote, steer and fund on a 11 cost-recovery basis a contract system; contract out the 12 making and distribution of drama, documentary, 13 historical series and make sure we get enough coming 14 into Saskatchewan, for Saskatchewan by Saskatchewan 15 people. 16 360 All matters pertinent to Canadian 17 cultural environment. Then have broadcast rights sold 18 to those existing or expanding private channels. 19 Somebody mentioned partnerships. Partnerships is the 20 way of the future, anyway, in so much of this stuff. 21 We can't afford the old icons, even though we love 22 them. 23 361 And add a regional entity to 24 Newsworld. Let's have our own Regina CBC Newsworld 25 once in a while. StenoTran 72 1 362 Option 3B: I call this Option 3B, 2 down the road -- because I don't understand how to do 3 it, but people like yourselves, at the province, do. 4 363 Provide for option to deliver the 5 output generated in option 3 through high-speed 6 Internet, or something like that. I can sit home. I 7 have a password. And this contracted system that 8 creates documentaries and historical series, CBC stuff, 9 beautiful CBC stuff -- "Black Harbour"; what was that 10 sixty thing, the Indian program -- 11 364 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: "North of 60". 12 365 MR. RICHMOND: "North of 60". Very, 13 very precious. We should have a heck of a lot more of 14 those than we have today. 15 366 The Sunday night programming -- you 16 know, the ones, Madam Commissioner. You watch CBC, I 17 hope. 18 367 There are contract shops coming into 19 the picture now, doing these outstanding stuff. Who is 20 going to tune into something else when you have this to 21 tune into? But do it through partnerships with local 22 entities, regional entities and national entities. 23 368 We sit at home, browse the 24 distributor's web site, download our choices, store 25 this in the TV computer, then watch it at our leisure. StenoTran 73 1 We would pay a subscription fee to purchase a password 2 to obtain the material for viewing. So there is an 3 opportunity for some more cash coming into the system. 4 369 But we do it through satellite. We 5 don't have to go the old route. 6 370 And I am finished, because you are in 7 a hurry. 8 --- Applause / Applaudissements 9 371 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 10 Richmond. 11 372 Mr. Secretary. 12 1437 13 373 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 14 374 Brian Docjack, please. 15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 16 375 MR. DOCJACK: Madam Chairman, 17 Commissioners, my name is Brian Docjack. I represent 18 the Regional Musicians Association, Local 446 of the 19 American Federation of Musicians of the United States 20 and Canada. 21 376 I stop at this point and stress "and 22 Canada", because without our organization, our Canadian 23 operation runs on its own. We didn't have to separate 24 like the Canadian auto workers did. 25 377 Saskatchewan, unfortunately, is StenoTran 74 1 considered to be a part of a larger region as far as 2 CBC is concerned, at least for budgeting purposes. So 3 consequently the allocations coming our way seem to be 4 getting smaller and smaller. 5 378 I think I can speak for my colleagues 6 in Saskatoon as well -- I think they would allow it 7 this time, anyway -- in saying that over the years we 8 have managed to develop an excellent rapport with the 9 staff at the Regina Broadcast Centre. It goes without 10 saying that they have done an absolutely excellent job 11 of getting the most out of what is a rather small 12 musical budget -- not just once, but time after time. 13 379 Our member musicians have been 14 involved with the corporation on numerous projects, 15 both those developed by the CBC itself, and also those 16 in which CBC has been a co-producer with an independent 17 producer as well. 18 380 For our members, this has been more 19 than just another chance to pick up a few dollars -- 20 although that has been welcome. It is also very safe 21 for me to say that had it not been for CBC's new talent 22 development programs, our Saskatchewan members may 23 never have had the opportunity to become involved in 24 this area of the electronics field. 25 381 It has been CBC that has given some StenoTran 75 1 of our members a chance to hone their musical writing 2 and arranging skills, in addition to their performance 3 skills. Some of those skills are now being utilized by 4 private producers in both the TV and film fields. 5 382 The Regina Broadcast Centre has done 6 a commendable job in promoting Saskatchewan artists and 7 airing their recordings. However, we have very grave 8 concerns about the future of the corporation. Recent 9 years have seen, to say the very least, a tremendous 10 erosion of budgets and staffing, a trend that we feel 11 must be stopped and reversed. I can't say that enough. 12 383 Although all sorts of arguments may 13 be made for the CBC becoming self-sustaining, we feel 14 that because of the very unique role that the 15 corporation plays as Canada's public broadcaster, and 16 should continue to fulfil within our cultural mosaic, 17 this is something that cannot be judged strictly by 18 bottom line. 19 384 Yes, there have been spurts of 20 activity by commercial broadcasters from time to time 21 in the area of musical production, but history shows us 22 that these efforts are never sustained; they are gone 23 quickly. And all too often the other networks revert 24 to packaged product, often from the States; or, as my 25 teenage son often loves to say, "from the Toronto StenoTran 76 1 sports network". 2 385 Where can listeners go to hear the 3 Canadian symphony orchestra? Where can they go to 4 listen to the broad range of talents that are displayed 5 at the jazz festivals, the folk festivals in this 6 country? Where can a viewer see a Canadian entertainer 7 who has perhaps not quite reached what is considered to 8 be international stardom, or to see drama that is 9 uniquely Canadian? 10 386 For that matter, how often might one 11 watch a Canadian artist who has reached the top of the 12 ladder in an American special? Very few times. 13 387 However, it is becoming more and more 14 apparent in the field that I am involved in that 15 Canadians don't have to lower their heads to anybody. 16 Watch the awards shows on the other channels and watch 17 the Canadian artists walk off with top prizes. We have 18 the talent. 19 388 Unfortunately, the answer to my 20 earlier questions is: Only on CBC. 21 389 If the erosion of staffing and 22 funding continues, even that is going to be gone. 23 390 CBC contributes very significantly to 24 the cultural fabric of our country, and culture is 25 something that you cannot easily place a value on. StenoTran 77 1 Yet, it defines us as a nation. 2 391 We must ensure that CBC remains 3 available to Canadians and is assured sufficient 4 funding to carry out its original mandate of being 5 Canada's national broadcaster. There is a fantastic 6 talent pool available in all regions of this country. 7 I have had the opportunity to listen to many of them 8 and we are seeing more and more of them reach 9 international heights. 10 392 But a comment I have heard all too 11 often and one that never fails to raise my temperature 12 is: "Canadian? Can't be. It's too good." 13 393 I am tired of that. We have 14 wonderful artists in the musical field, in the dramatic 15 fields and in writing. We don't have to lower our 16 heads in front of anybody. We should be proud of what 17 we can produce. 18 394 Locally, we had a show that was done 19 nationally for a while called "Country West". In 20 talking to my colleagues across the country when it was 21 cancelled, they were amazed that they would cancel a 22 show of that quality. Everyone expressed the same 23 thing. The talent in Saskatchewan is fantastic. But 24 it is not just Saskatchewan; it is all of Canada. 25 395 I will close by saying that there are StenoTran 78 1 some things that are far, far too important to be 2 judged solely on the basis of a balance sheet. We 3 support the mandate of the CBC. I thank the Commission 4 for affording me this opportunity. 5 --- Applause / Applaudissements 6 396 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 7 Dojack -- and I know that you are not Mr. Cotter. 8 1445 9 397 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 10 398 Finally, Mr. Victor Lau, of the first 11 ten people we have had today. 12 399 Mr. Lau. 13 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 14 400 MR. LAU: Thank you. Good afternoon 15 to everyone. My name is Victor Lau. I am 16 Vice-President of the Regina District Labour Council. 17 I am pleased to be here on behalf of the 18,000 18 unionized of the Regina District Labour Council, and we 19 are pleased to present our brief -- which is entitled 20 "Rejuvenating the CBC" -- which speaks in favour of 21 public broadcasting and in support of a strong CBC. 22 401 As well, we hope to bring some of our 23 suggestions here that will rejuvenate the CBC, one 24 which will be fully ready for the challenges in the new 25 millennium. StenoTran 79 1 402 In terms of privatization, first and 2 foremost, we would like to make it clear that the CBC 3 should never be privatized. We believe that, having 4 read some material from a group called Friends of 5 Canadian Broadcasting, certain CBC board members are 6 "hatching plans to sell the Crown Jewels -- CBC's 7 transmitters -- in some of Canada's biggest cities to 8 private interests in the coming months". 9 403 How is this consistent with providing 10 public broadcasting or supporting the CBC? It just 11 plain is not. We see this opportunistic privatization 12 plan as a way of further dismantling the CBC and 13 weakening it to a point of irrelevance. 14 404 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Hear! hear! 15 405 MR. LAU: As George Richards from 16 Castlegar, B.C., states: 17 "Regional alienations can be 18 strong in Canada. The CBC was 19 earlier mandated to counter 20 these forces, to instill a love 21 for a Canadian commonwealth. 22 This mandate should be 23 re-stated, emphasized and 24 funded." 25 406 We ask that the CRTC investigate any StenoTran 80 1 possible plans of privatization at the CBC and put an 2 immediate halt to any such plans. 3 407 Advertising: We at the Regional 4 District Labour Council find consumerism to be a poison 5 in our mental environment. It is hard to escape the 6 constant bombardment of advertising whenever one tries 7 to do so. It is so prevalent in all of our major 8 communication mediums: print, TV, radio. The whole 9 idea of allowing CBC radio's listening audience to be 10 subjected to the advertising industry's commercials 11 makes my stomach turn. It is bad enough that even the 12 CBC television news is constantly being interrupted to 13 sell various drugs, dog foods, cars, et cetera. 14 408 We ask that the CRTC investigate that 15 alternative means to keeping the CBC productions as 16 ad-free as possible, even if it means further public 17 subsidy. We do not support the commercialization of 18 the CBC. 19 --- Applause / Applaudissements 20 409 MR. LAU: Investing in and Renewing 21 the CBC: Similar to the massive federal cuts in 22 transfer payments to provincial health care over the 23 past years, the CBC has also enjoyed such undeserved 24 cuts. In addition to slashed funding, the CBC also 25 seems to be receiving less and less public money. StenoTran 81 1 410 An example is the $200 million that 2 was collected from taxpayers and cable subscribers into 3 the Canadian Television Fund. After intensive lobbying 4 from private interests, Mr. Chrétien's government 5 reversed the decision made to put 50 per cent of this 6 amount into Canadian productions from the CBC and 7 instead decided to have 67 per cent of this public 8 money reallocated into the private broadcasters' hands. 9 411 We think it is time the Federal 10 Government renewed the CBC, much like health care, and 11 put back what funding they took out. 12 412 We ask that the CRTC demand the 13 Federal Government re-institute appropriate public 14 funding for the CBC. This could be done with a small 15 tax on all private broadcasts. 16 413 Without a strong CBC, will there be a 17 strong national identity? 18 "As someone who grew up in 19 Vancouver with CBC radio and 20 television in the 40s and 50s, 21 it was very clear to me that I 22 was Canadian and not American. 23 I wonder if it will be so easy 24 for my grandchildren?" 25 414 That is from Anne Ironside, Bowen StenoTran 82 1 Island, B.C. 2 415 As for the arguments against further 3 or increased public funding for the CBC due to the fear 4 of "wasting the money", we would like to quote the CRTC 5 itself in its 1993 renewal of the CBC's four radio 6 networks: 7 "The Commission considers that 8 the Corporation, in a time of 9 financial restraint and 10 uncertainty, should be commended 11 for the general excellent of its 12 radio programming, which stands 13 as a model for broadcasters in 14 Canada, and around the world." 15 416 Ownership: The CBC is a public 16 broadcaster. Its mandate is to serve the public 17 interest, not the corporate. The current labour strife 18 between the Communication, Energy and paperworkers 19 (CEP) union and the Media Guild versus the CBC Board of 20 Directors does not need to be occurring. The whole 21 idea of public broadcasting is to serve a need, not to 22 expand corporate greed. 23 417 To again quote the CRTC on its 24 renewal of the English Television Network's licence in 25 1994: StenoTran 83 1 "The need may be greater than 2 ever for an outlet to express 3 truly Canadian stories, ideas 4 and values amid these foreign 5 voices. A strong Canadian 6 national public broadcaster is 7 indispensable in this context." 8 418 If the CBC is to be "our" public 9 broadcaster, then it must do two things: One, it must 10 stop alienating its own workers through continued 11 harassment, layoffs, and threats to job security. 12 Workers must have a sense of ownership in their jobs in 13 order to skilfully and willingly dedicate the needed 14 time to create excellence and in general "do a good 15 job". 16 419 Secondly, the CBC must appeal to 17 audiences through entertaining, lively and dynamic 18 programming: 19 "What Canadians require and 20 expect of their CBC, more than 21 of any other Canadian 22 broadcaster, is that it provides 23 the means for them to talk to 24 one another about things 25 Canadian, both formally and StenoTran 84 1 informally, that it be a place 2 where they can meet, a place 3 they can feel at home." 4 420 That again is the CRTC on renewing 5 the English Television Network's licence in 1994. 6 421 We ask that the CRTC require both 7 these conditions from the CBC: the sense of worker 8 ownership and citizen ownership. 9 422 The following suggestions are fully 10 endorsed by the Regina District Labour Council, but we 11 cannot take credit for their creation. 12 423 We agree with the importance of 13 maintaining local and regional programming on CBC radio 14 and television. Not only does this maintain stable, 15 well-paid jobs in each province, but in addition it 16 allows some local community coverage that can be shared 17 with other communities elsewhere in Canada. 18 424 An example of how the cuts have 19 affected provincial CBC television is the supper hour 20 news broadcast here in this province. Because of less 21 staff or the staff shortages, there is, according to my 22 friend, now more digitalized cartoon coverups to make 23 up for the time. 24 425 We agree that the CBC should be 25 properly funded and not lose out funding to private StenoTran 85 1 broadcasters. The CRTC should explain to the 2 government that CBC needs more funds in order to fulfil 3 its mandate. 4 426 We also agree that the CBC board 5 should not be able to centralize radio and television 6 news under the control of an Ottawa-based 7 vice-president. This centralization would reduce the 8 number of independent news sources in Canada and place 9 both radio and TV news under the nose of government. 10 We do not want government propaganda or censorship. 11 427 The CRTC should ensure the 12 independence of CBC's radio and television news 13 services from each other, as well as from any 14 governmental interference. 15 428 An example of undue government 16 interference is the tampering of CBC's APEC 17 Summit/Trial coverage. Prime Minister Chrétien's 18 threats from his office against Mr. Terry Milewsky's 19 "supposed" bias due to comments of labelling the 20 Federal Government as "the forces of darkness" led to 21 his immediate suspension. 22 429 We condemn this act as journalistic 23 terrorism. How can a reporter's private opinions and 24 thoughts, especially via e-mail, be considered bias, 25 but other reporters' open public statements on air stir StenoTran 86 1 not a whisper? 2 430 An example that I recently saw in the 3 past year was the election in South Korea of a Social 4 Democratic government, and the reporting by the 5 reporter was talking about how the people did not agree 6 with the past government because they were willing to 7 implement the International Monetary Fund's reforms and 8 that now this new government was elected on a mandate 9 to change that. 10 431 However, the reporter ended up saying 11 that the new government has no choice but to implement 12 IMF reforms. 13 432 We don't see that as being impartial. 14 I think that is a little leading. 15 433 Another example would be the constant 16 barrage by a political commentator -- I believe his 17 name is Jason Moskovitz -- that the people were 18 concerned about constitutional changes; not 19 unemployment, not the environment during the last 20 federal election. We were bombarded constantly that it 21 was constitutional amendments, constitutional wrangling 22 that people were concerned about and that that is what 23 the government should be concerned about. 24 434 Is this a conspiracy or is this a 25 reality perpetuated by the powers that be -- in other StenoTran 87 1 words, big business? 2 435 CBC must always be seen to be fair, 3 accountable and serving the public interest above all. 4 We see the CBC as a public trust for all Canadians. 5 436 To conclude, we at the RDLC -- the 6 Regina District Labour Council -- thank you again for 7 this opportunity to present and hope that public 8 participation can be done on a more frequent basis, 9 perhaps even annually, and allow more average citizens 10 their say, not just the paid lobbyists who lobby for 11 the private corporate interests. 12 437 Thank you. 13 --- Applause / Applaudissements 14 438 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Lau. 15 439 I propose that we take a short break 16 and come back in ten minutes, which by my watch will be 17 five after three. 18 --- Recess at 1455 / Suspension à 1455 19 --- Upon resuming at 1510 / Reprise à 1510 20 440 THE CHAIRPERSON: When we reconvene, 21 the Secretary will be calling up the next ten people. 22 However, Mr. Steele would like to have the mic for two 23 and a half seconds to clarify a matter. 24 441 MR. STEELE: I would like to take a 25 moment to emphasize, first of all, that I stated a StenoTran 88 1 rumour that I just recently heard that Radio Three of 2 the CBC will be developed on the backs of cuts to noon 3 and afternoon regional services. 4 442 I have been assured that this is a 5 complete rumour, not true; that it is new money. I 6 have offered to remove that statement, if I can, from 7 the record. 8 443 I would wonder why new money wouldn't 9 go to prop up the old service. But excuse me, my 10 seconds are up. 11 444 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 12 Steele. 13 445 Mr. Secretary. 14 446 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 15 447 I would like to call the next ten 16 participants, please, and I would remind you to try to 17 stick to the ten-minute limit. It will help us later 18 on. 19 448 I would like to insert the name of 20 Barb Stange, please; Jennifer Stowell; Elaine Driver; 21 Al Taylor; Lee Boyko; Jonathan Bingham; Ida Grosse; 22 Brian Cousins; Norm Bray; and Marcel Michaud. 23 449 Please come forward to the table. 24 450 Barb Stange, when you are ready, 25 please proceed. StenoTran 89 1 PRESENTATION /PRÉSENTATION 2 451 MS STANGE: Thank you very much for 3 enabling me to speak earlier. 4 452 My name is Barbara Stange, and I am 5 here representing myself. I perhaps should say that I 6 am a retired professor at the University of Regina, but 7 that is not relevant to my presentation. 8 453 I almost did not come. Why should 9 you want to hear from me? I am a 75-year old woman of 10 negligible value in marketing terms. 11 454 Marketing, the bottom line, seems to 12 have become the determining force in Canada's public 13 policy decision. Marketing analysis indicates that you 14 already have my support. Marketing analysis says what 15 CBC needs are audiences for radio and television the 16 ages of my children and grandchildren. 17 455 Broadcasters have to be cool, sharp, 18 up-to-date in the way they talk, what they say and how 19 they look. Marketing says that above all else, numbers 20 count. Marketing says the way to go is to chuck out 21 what has worked to the benefit of all Canadians. Let 22 the market call the shots -- and, incidentally, silence 23 thoughtful, reflective programming and provide what 24 pleases the young of the moment. 25 456 I will just mention that I have 14 StenoTran 90 1 grandchildren, and I want to exclude them from that 2 category. I know they appreciate good programming, and 3 I think lots of young people do. If we used our smarts 4 better, we could get programming on radio and 5 television that would attract youth who are very 6 thoughtful and interested in ideas. 7 457 The next step is to starve the CBC. 8 Make promises with on intention of fulfilling them. 9 Make it impossible for them to operate without 10 advertising and then criticize the CBC for unfairly 11 dipping into the advertising pool in competition with 12 the private radio and TV. Cut funds so low that they 13 can't produce sufficiently high quality programs and 14 then gloat: "Boy! CBC's voice is not nearly so 15 effective as it used to be in helping people know what 16 is happening and in thinking critically (that is, with 17 knowledge and reflection) about government and big 18 business." 19 458 The powers that be chortle: "We've 20 pulled their teeth. They are running scared and are 21 beginning to follow our lead. Let's cut some more, 22 centralize operations in Montreal and Toronto where 23 people understand where we are coming from and where we 24 can influence who they hire and stifle the voices from 25 the underdeveloped, remote areas of Canada." StenoTran 91 1 459 All this is being done so there will 2 be few effective voices left to object to the complete 3 dismantling of CBC radio and television. 4 460 Why would anyone, especially you, 5 listen to my voice? I can't answer that except to say 6 that I care very deeply about CBC radio and television. 7 As a retired person, widowed less than two years ago, I 8 depend upon the radio. I wake up with "The Morning 9 Show", list to classical music during the day, try not 10 to miss "Ideas", and go to sleep with "Between the 11 Covers". 12 461 If I wake during the night -- and I 13 often do now -- I am fascinated by the broadcasts from 14 countries around the world. 15 462 I am going to pause here. 16 463 I asked to be able to present a 17 little early, because a friend of mine needs some help. 18 She is wheelchair-bound and fairly frail. She is the 19 one who mentioned to me that the program "Through the 20 Night" was a wonderful thing. 21 464 She grew up in Vienna, and she just 22 loves that she hears broadcasts from Europe and from 23 other places. She said, when I told her what I was 24 doing this afternoon: "Please stress how that is very, 25 very important." StenoTran 92 1 465 That is Dr. Elizabeth Brandt, if you 2 want to use her name. 3 466 I am fascinated by those broadcasts. 4 I am a busy person and read a lot too, but the radio is 5 part of the rhythm and substance of my life. I watch 6 Newsworld with interest, but now prefer A&E and PBS 7 from Detroit to the sorts of entertainment that are 8 generally available on the basic CBC channel. I miss 9 the fun of many of the shows that we used to enjoy so 10 much. 11 467 I came to Canada with my husband and 12 three of my five children in 1972. By 1980 we were all 13 Canadian citizens. People often ask me why I stay now 14 that I am a widow and my children are grown. I stay 15 because I love this country and feel it is home. 16 468 Peter Gzowski and others helped me 17 understand what it means to be a Canadian and helped me 18 learn about Canadian politics, literature and music. 19 When I am in the United States with family and friends, 20 I enjoy the visit but I know now that I belong here. 21 469 I weep inside as I see the dear 22 things I have come to love in Canada being devalued and 23 made ineffective. I know there are others who feel the 24 way I do. 25 470 On March 9th, in the Leader Post, StenoTran 93 1 Lawrence Martin quoted Sheila Copps as saying: 2 "One of the benefits of having a 3 public broadcaster like CBC is 4 that it can cater to a higher 5 ethic. It need not be driven by 6 the lowest common denominator, 7 which is what private television 8 ratings are all about." 9 471 In the same paper the next day, 10 Martin writes about: 11 "...a dearth of inspirational 12 leaders in Canada as well as 13 elsewhere." 14 472 And that: 15 "There is no one to reach for 16 something higher than the 17 dominant consensus of the day 18 which, as George Soros calls it, 19 is market fundamentalism." 20 473 l feel the voices of humane, liberal, 21 literate thinkers must be heard. Their voices provide 22 the thoughtfulness and inspiration which holds us 23 together as a functioning society. What do we have 24 left if we silence them? 25 474 My voice is a small one. All I can StenoTran 94 1 do is let it be heard and hope against hope others will 2 agree that this proposed deconstruction is an 3 abomination. 4 475 I learned yesterday that I have a 5 whopping tax bill. I would pay even more if I thought 6 it would have any effect on your decisions. 7 476 Please work toward strengthening CBC 8 radio and television. Let us hear many Canadian 9 voices. So many of the other presenters have said 10 that. Let us celebrate all we have done together and 11 realize the wonderful possibilities that exist for this 12 very special country of ours. 13 477 Thank you. 14 --- Applause / Applaudissements 15 478 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mrs. 16 Stange. 17 479 Mr. Secretary. 18 1523 19 480 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 20 481 Jennifer Stowell, please. 21 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 22 482 MS STOWELL: Hi, I am Jennifer 23 Stowell. I drove up from Saskatoon because I love the 24 CBC, not because I am with any organization. There 25 have been so many great things said today and a lot of StenoTran 95 1 really helpful criticism. I had written out quite a 2 few things I wanted to cover, and they have mostly been 3 covered really eloquently. So I think I am mostly 4 going to talk about what I like about the CBC and what 5 I would like to see continue. 6 483 I love the CBC because it speaks to 7 my heart and to my soul and mostly to my mind. It is 8 an overused cliche, but to me it really does tie the 9 country together. 10 484 Without it, the only east coast 11 culture I would get from private commercial stations 12 would be Great Big C from Quebec, Celine Dion; and from 13 the rest of the country almost nothing. 14 485 The CBC means a lot because it brings 15 the country to me and therefore gives me a greater 16 understanding of my part in it. 17 486 For the next millennium, I would just 18 like to see the CBC continue to work on quality 19 programming that it has always given me. And, of 20 course, I wish they had more money. 21 487 Regionally and nationally: I guess 22 regionally I wish there was more regional programming 23 on television. Obviously, I think there is enough on 24 the radio with "Morning Edition", "Afternoon Edition", 25 "The Noon Call-in". I love hearing all the voices from StenoTran 96 1 Saskatchewan. 2 488 Television seems like it has got a 3 lot of bashing today. I actually really love the 4 programming on CBC TV. To me, it is what I can't get 5 on commercial stations: shows like "Twitch City", "The 6 News Room", "Dewy Gardens"(ph) and especially the new 7 one, "Foolish Heart". It is innovative, creative and 8 it is new; and the commercial stations would never air 9 it for those reasons and because it is very Canadian to 10 me. 11 489 Canadian content, to me, isn't just 12 having Canadian actors and writers who are performing 13 basically a pale imitation of an American standard, but 14 having a truly Canadian story and a Canadian voice. 15 490 Particularly with movies, with CTV or 16 Global I get simulcasts of American movies like "The 17 Doris Duke Story". On CBC I get "The Boys of St. 18 Vincent" and "For Those Who Hunt the Wounded Down". 19 Having those means so much to me, and I love them. 20 491 As Barb mentioned, I am the all 21 important supposed demographic. I would like to think 22 that I have some taste, hopefully. 23 492 CBC matters to me. It does. And I 24 think it matters to a lot of other people my age as 25 well, especially with the different bands and artists StenoTran 97 1 and thinkers you can't find anywhere else, with shows 2 like "Definitely Not the Opera" or even on a 3 "Round-up". It doesn't get brought to me on any other 4 channel. 5 493 I guess that is pretty much all I 6 had. CBC matters to me and I think it matters to most 7 Canadians. I think we need it to hear each other and 8 to reach each other and to understand each other. 9 494 That is all I have. Thank you. 10 --- Applause / Applaudissements 11 495 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 12 Stowell. 13 496 Mr. Secretary. 14 1526 15 497 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 16 498 Elaine Driver, please. 17 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 18 499 MS DRIVER: Commissioners, ladies and 19 gentlemen: Although I am an avid CBC television 20 watcher, I intend to confine my remarks this afternoon 21 to the role of CBC radio in rural Saskatchewan. Most 22 of my comments will concern Radio One, AM radio, as we 23 are very much on the fringe of reception for the FM 24 broadcast. 25 500 I met a farmer in the bank this StenoTran 98 1 morning as I was getting ready to come up here, and I 2 told him where I was going because he said: "Where are 3 you going, all dressed up today?" He said: "Please, 4 please tell everybody how important CBC is to me. I 5 have to go seeding this spring, and it's the only way I 6 stay sane is to listen to CBC radio on my tractor." 7 501 I am appearing before this Commission 8 to tell you how vital CBC radio is to me. I speak from 9 the perspective of a rural woman who has spent many 10 years in the isolated setting of a farm, 20 kilometres 11 from the nearest town, and with fewer and fewer 12 neighbours. 13 502 No daily paper appears on the 14 doorstep. There is no computer in our home. Even 15 though the town library is limited as to what is on 16 site, books can be ordered; but that usually means you 17 would have to make two trips to town to access the 18 information you need. 19 503 It is understandable how important 20 access to CBC radio becomes in that kind of an isolated 21 setting. Feeding the intellect is as important as 22 feeding the body, as Tony Richmond said -- although I 23 said it first. 24 504 The CBC is a vital component that 25 fulfils the function of feeding the mind. We StenoTran 99 1 especially appreciate "The Morning Show" as we rise to 2 begin another day. We can find out if the weather will 3 be fair or fowl. We can determine what highway and 4 road conditions are and if our favourite team has won. 5 505 But it is more than the fact about 6 our environment. It is about our neighbours. The 7 human interest angle is featured as a very important 8 part of every story. We begin to understand the 9 character of our province and its people, creating an 10 even stronger sense of community. 11 506 Many of our interests are covered by 12 CBC. If it's music, there is music analysis; for jazz, 13 classical, folk and a wee bit of rock and roll. If it 14 is international or world beat music, there is a 15 program with that focus. If our interest is in 16 politics, there is political analysis at the national, 17 provincial and municipal level; and if it is the arts, 18 you can find out what is going on across the country, 19 and locally. 20 507 If farm market information is 21 important to you, you can find that -- although I would 22 like to say that coverage has been seriously eroded. I 23 guess as we lose farmers, we lose the need to provide 24 the market information. 25 508 CBC radio provides, to the very best StenoTran 100 1 of my knowledge, the only regular source of widely 2 varied radio drama. It is also one of the few places 3 where new and aspiring artistic performers are given 4 both regional and nation-wide coverage and 5 encouragement. 6 509 Through CBC radio, we can keep in 7 touch with the latest happenings in the visual arts, 8 gallery openings and what is going on at the Mendel(ph) 9 or the Norman Mackenzie. 10 510 I want to pay special tribute to the 11 high quality of the interviewing that takes place on 12 CBC radio. I will never forget Peter Gzowski's 13 interview with the young woman who was working with an 14 aid agency in Nicaragua who described the locale and 15 the mountains where women had banded together to form a 16 day care cooperative. As she was telling the story, I 17 soon recognized that this was the same place I had 18 visited a few years previously; and as it became clear 19 that the women were still, years later, experiencing 20 great difficulty in caring for those children, with no 21 resources at all, I found myself in tears. 22 511 This was only one example of Peter 23 Gzowski's ability to bring the world into our kitchen: 24 the mud huts from Africa, the slum shacks of South 25 American cities. And Peter was only one of many StenoTran 101 1 excellent interviewers whose work brought, and 2 continues to bring, a unique perspective to our lives. 3 512 The continuing fine tradition of "As 4 It Happens", from the days of Barbara Frum and Alan 5 Maitland to the present, has kept countless Canadians 6 well informed and challenged. 7 513 I also remember an outstanding 8 interview with Moshe Safdie that I just recently heard, 9 a wide-ranging discussion on architectural philosophy: 10 truly inspiring and enlightening, and where else would 11 you hear something like that. 12 514 CBC is also excellent in helping us 13 to appreciate other cultures around us. I am thinking 14 here of Tom Roberts, whose early morning contributions 15 from La Ronge give us a vivid picture of a First 16 Nations people living and working in northern 17 Saskatchewan. We find out about the trappers' 18 festivals, how the fur markets are doing, and how the 19 wild rice harvest has gone. 20 515 And then there is the comedy, the 21 laughter that keeps us going in the bleakest of times; 22 the droll outrageous humour of "The Dead Dog Cafe", the 23 general craziness of the gang from "Royal Canadian Air 24 Farce". They have since gone to television, 25 unfortunately. StenoTran 102 1 516 And of course my personal favourite 2 at the present time, Lorne Elliott's(ph) unique brand 3 of craziness on "Madly Off in All Directions". 4 517 Through CBC radio we also get an 5 inside view of that other distinctly Canadian comedic 6 relief, the goings-on in Ottawa and other political 7 arenas. Where else would we be able to get that kind 8 of quality in-depth coverage of public affairs that is 9 available, again without commercial interruption, every 10 Saturday morning, "On The House", with Jason Moskovitz, 11 and an amazing crew of dedicated researchers and 12 writers. 13 518 I am certain people who are making 14 decisions about the future of the CBC could conclude 15 that the world wide web would fulfil the needs of 16 people for that kind of information that CBC radio 17 presently offers. 18 519 However, statistics tell us that 19 under 10 per cent of the people have ready access to 20 the Internet, and that this figure will increase only 21 marginally over the next decade. 22 520 On the other side, I would guess that 23 99.9 per cent of people have a radio. 24 521 Even looking at those households who 25 have satellite dishes, these provide high-quality StenoTran 103 1 sound; but I would argue that fewer people have access 2 to these than you would think and that there is little 3 programming of the sort CBC provides and which I have 4 discussed above. 5 522 To sum up, I want to cast my vote in 6 favour of imaginative, informative, and uplifting 7 programming that CBC radio has over the past years 8 offered to the people of rural Saskatchewan. I realize 9 that in recent years this sterling effort has had to 10 contend with short-sighted and stingy governance from 11 politicians who seem unable to appreciate the crucial 12 role of this institution in the shaping of our national 13 character and identity. 14 523 Here is one solid cheer for the good 15 work that the CBC has done and must be allowed to 16 continue to do. 17 524 In closing, may I add our grave 18 concern as to the effect of the continuing labour 19 difficulties and urge the people at the bargaining 20 table to hurry up and settle the strike. 21 525 Thank you very much. 22 --- Applause / Applaudissements 23 526 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 24 Driver. 25 527 Mr. Secretary. StenoTran 104 1 1530 2 528 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 3 529 Al Taylor, please. 4 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 5 530 MR. TAYLOR: I am not nearly as well 6 prepared as my previous presenters. I will try and 7 keep it short. 8 531 The thing that struck me while I was 9 listening to the person travelling through 10 Saskatchewan -- which I did most of my working life 11 through rural Saskatchewan and northern Saskatchewan, 12 and believe me, without CBC radio you would not be 13 informed at all about what is going on in Canada and in 14 Saskatchewan. 15 532 When you are driving two and three 16 hours at a time between meetings, you have to have 17 something to keep you awake over our broad flat plains 18 that grow so much beautiful grain, and it was CBC 19 radio. I never, as I recall, tuned into any other 20 station, because I cannot stand being blasted with 21 advertising, telling me to consume, and consume and 22 consume. 23 533 So I am another small voice, like 24 Barbara who just presented, bringing my point of view, 25 which has already been so well stated by so many other StenoTran 105 1 people. 2 534 I have just a few points or comments. 3 535 CBC radio, in my opinion, must 4 continue. Improved funding is absolutely essential. I 5 want it to remain advertising free. In fact, I have 6 written down here "it must remain advertising free". 7 536 CBC television, which I enjoy -- I 8 guess in our house we listen to the CBC morning, noon 9 and night. And when I get upset at something that is 10 being done, the radio happens to get turned on. 11 537 CBC television doesn't strike me as 12 doing a job that I think it should be doing for Canada. 13 I would argue that it should be advertising free. I 14 think that is a great leap forward, rather than going 15 back to the past. We used to actually have television 16 that was advertising free. 17 538 CBC television is, and can be, very 18 unique in many ways. Surely our rich diverse country 19 can afford one national commercial-free channel that 20 isn't urging us hour after hour after hour to consume 21 and consume. If necessary, increase my taxes. 22 539 A couple of other points. I am not 23 well prepared, but I have been discussing this with 24 friends and neighbours. The person I am quoting now is 25 legally blind and has a hip problem so doesn't get out StenoTran 106 1 of the house very much, and listens to CBC morning, 2 noon, night -- and well after night, into the middle of 3 the morning. 4 540 The strike, as far as she is 5 concerned, has really cut her off from all kinds of 6 programs she wants to hear. Since it is practically 7 the only information that comes into the house, she is 8 just tired of the repeating programs. She has heard 9 them all, and heard them all again, and she thinks it 10 is time for some new ones. 11 541 She also asked me to mention that 12 more programs that force us to deal with the racism 13 that is all around us is really important. CBC does 14 some of this; but arguably, there is much more that can 15 be done. We are becoming a very diverse country 16 ethnically, and it just seems to me that it should be 17 dealt with openly and honestly and with lots of 18 dignity. 19 542 Many more programs showing the 20 positive accomplishments of native and other minority 21 and immigrant groups would be well advised. Much 22 broader TV representation of all sports played in 23 Canada. Some of us would be actually happy to see CBC 24 give up the unlimited coverage of the National Hockey 25 League, especially during play-off season. StenoTran 107 1 543 What we would like to see is much 2 more coverage of all sports in Canada. We do have good 3 standards in badminton, table tennis. Right now, I 4 can't think of any more; but squash, and that sort of 5 thing, never gets any coverage at all -- at least it is 6 so little that I never see it. Maybe it is because I 7 don't' watch sports all the time. 8 544 We would like to see much more 9 coverage of all the small volunteer NGO groups that are 10 really trying to save the world. 11 545 This last one is brought in mostly 12 because I am a concerned environmentalist, and I see 13 commercial television advertising for us to consume 14 great masses of resources that are very fast running 15 out. We need discussion, and we need some station that 16 is trying to inform us about what is going on in the 17 real world rather than trying to get us to consume more 18 and more of it faster and faster. 19 546 I would like to congratulate all the 20 other people who have made presentations on behalf of 21 the CBC. I get angry at them periodically, but I 22 wouldn't want to give them up for the world. 23 547 Thank you. 24 --- Applause / Applaudissements 25 548 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. StenoTran 108 1 Taylor. 2 549 For everybody's information Mr. 3 Taylor used to live in my home town of Indian Head. 4 550 Mr. Secretary. 5 1538 6 551 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 7 552 Lee Boyko, please. 8 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 9 553 MR. BOYKO: Thank you for the 10 opportunity to speak today. My name is Lee Boyko. I 11 am the Executive Director of the Museum Association of 12 British Columbia, where our umbrella organization 13 represents about 225 museums, art galleries and related 14 organizations around the province. 15 554 First, I want to say that many of the 16 comments I wanted to say have already been made, so I 17 will cut those out and keep them fairly short. 18 555 I also want to talk a little bit 19 about process at the beginning. 20 556 About ten years ago I lived in a town 21 called Prince Rupert, in British Columbia. The CRTC 22 came to do a hearing there when the CBC decided to 23 eliminate the radio station that existed there. The 24 CRTC made a bit of a solemn like decision by saying 25 "Well, you still have to keep one person there from the StenoTran 109 1 15-person station that used to exist", and we would 2 have sort of a morning program, bureau type thing that 3 you have in British Columbia. 4 557 Subsequent to that, my understanding 5 is that that person is shared between Prince George, 6 which is about 400 miles away, and unfortunately the 7 quality of service has deteriorated greatly. Where my 8 concern is, especially hearing today many people 9 talking about the importance of CBC radio -- and I know 10 that previously at previous CRTC hearings the same 11 thing has been expressed -- and yet CBC management has 12 managed to avoid dealing with that in an effective 13 manner. 14 558 In many cases they have continued to 15 cut CBC radio and put resources into things like CBC 16 television, despite what people have been saying at 17 these types of meetings. 18 559 I don't know if the CRTC has the real 19 power to make sure that CBC management listens to what 20 people are saying at these meetings. That I have a 21 real concern about. I don't know how the CRTC can most 22 effectively approach that. 23 560 It seems to me that often the CBC 24 just goes ahead does what they want to do despite what 25 the rulings are around them. So I will start off with StenoTran 110 1 that. 2 561 I guess amongst everything else I am 3 just going to focus on one thing that I think the CBC 4 could be looking at doing, and that is in the area of 5 partnerships. Certainly today we have heard some 6 examples of partnerships and some things where CBC has 7 been very effective, but I think the CBC can be doing a 8 lot more in this area. 9 562 That is one area that you can look 10 at, one of its sister organizations, the National Film 11 Board, which, like so many national cultural 12 organizations, has taken its beating over the years. 13 One thing that the National Film Board has been very 14 effective at is working in partnership with community 15 organizations. 16 563 I worked with three different museums 17 where we ended up having documentaries that were able 18 to be used by the museum in its programming and so 19 forth that were helped and supported by the NFB, not 20 just through money, but through expertise and so forth. 21 564 I think that too often the CBC only 22 looks at partnerships in cases where they are going to 23 get direct broadcast hours out of it. I think the CBC 24 can spend some more time looking at partnerships that 25 both sides are getting other benefits. StenoTran 111 1 565 Another example is that around this 2 province and throughout many community museums there 3 are literally thousands of hours of oral histories that 4 have been done over the years. Frankly, most of those 5 oral histories rotting away. Their tape has not been 6 looked at properly and have not been transcribed 7 properly. I think there is a great opportunity there 8 to use some of the expertise of the CBC and their new 9 digital technologies, and so forth, to help preserve 10 that history and perhaps get some programming out of 11 it. 12 566 I guess what I am saying is that they 13 don't always have to work in partnership with groups 14 just to get direct programming; they can help to 15 preserve the culture and heritage of this country in 16 other ways. 17 567 I think the CBC should look at that 18 type of partnership that goes beyond their broadcast 19 mandate. I think they can do that. 20 568 Second, I want to comment a little 21 bit about the arts recording that has been occurring on 22 the CBC over the past number of years. I think many of 23 us have been encouraged by especially CBC radio's 24 inclusion of more arts reporters and the development 25 their cultural web site I think has been very good and StenoTran 112 1 has a lot of potential. 2 569 At the same time a number of 3 organizations are finding that the emphasis of the 4 "Arts Report" is towards news; i.e., controversy. I 5 suppose that the news side especially of CBC has to be 6 careful about being seen to be biased or being seen to 7 promote as opposed to find a news story. Yet, I think 8 one of the roles of the CBC is just that; to promote 9 the cultural awareness around the country of various 10 things. 11 570 Is it really arts reporters that we 12 need or arts interpreters that we need at the CBC? I 13 think that needs to be considered a bit. Not all new 14 stories need to have controversy. Unfortunately, I 15 have seen that sort of shift; and it is not just the 16 CBC, but all media to some degree. 17 571 Lastly, as I said, many of the things 18 have been said. I grew up listening to CBC radio. 19 Where I lived outside of Vancouver, I was about 150 20 yards from the main CBC transmitters. I couldn't help 21 but listen to CBC radio frankly, in many cases. But I 22 enjoyed it. 23 572 Just one other thing about the CBC -- 24 and this is talking about the negative stuff. 25 573 It seems to me that often the CBC StenoTran 113 1 sees itself as being the only source of culture in 2 Canada. About three or four years ago when one report 3 came down that looked at the CBC, the NFB and Telefilm, 4 for about a week and a half on CBC news all you heard 5 was about how the report talked about the CBC. Very 6 seldom did you ever hear them talk about Telefilm or 7 the NFB. You had "The Journal" at the time that would 8 spend a whole half hour on the troubles and trials of 9 the CBC. At the beginning of the news, there would be 10 ten minutes' worth of the CBC. Yet, there were two 11 other organizations that were talked about in the same 12 report. 13 574 I wish sometimes the CBC would step 14 back. I guess what I am saying is that I don't think 15 they do themselves good service when they seem to be 16 self-serving in some of those news reports and news 17 coverages that they do about issues surrounding the 18 CBC. 19 575 I know there were comments at the 20 time about that particular issues. I think the CBC 21 needs to step back and realize that yes, they are an 22 important part of the cultural mosaic of this country. 23 But we had culture before the CBC existed, and we will 24 have culture forever and ever. It may change and be 25 different. They have a role to play, but they have to StenoTran 114 1 realize that they are part of a larger community. 2 Sometimes I think they only see themselves as being 3 "the" community. 4 576 Those are some comments. Thank you. 5 --- Applause / Applaudissements 6 577 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just for the 7 record, Mr. Boyko, you are with the Museum Association 8 of Saskatchewan? 9 578 MR. BOYKO: Did I say B.C.? 10 579 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 11 580 MR. BOYKO: I knew I was going to do 12 that. I just moved here. 13 581 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 14 582 Mr. Secretary. 15 1546 16 583 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 17 584 Jonathan Bingham, please. 18 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 19 585 MR. BINGHAM: Madam Chair, 20 Commissioner, my name is Jonathan Bingham. I am here 21 because I owe a great debt to the many wise and 22 wonderful people in the broadcasting industry, namely 23 the BBC and CBC. These people have sparked my interest 24 in many particular topics, increased by knowledge bank 25 and showed me where to find more information. StenoTran 115 1 586 I listen to the CBC radio every day 2 of my life, starting around 5:00 a.m. and finishing 3 when "As it Happens" signs off at 8:00 p.m. My 4 preferred listening is Radio Two. the reason I prefer 5 radio is that I can work and do other things while 6 listening. On the other hand, when I watch TV I become 7 chair-bound and inactive, which is a very, very 8 dangerous comfort zone. 9 587 I will present the germ of an idea 10 for the future of the CBC. However, I have no idea of 11 the extent of the Commission's powers on the CBC's 12 mandate, et cetera. 13 588 CBC Present Situation: There are 14 people in power who are extremely vocal in their wish 15 to see the CBC eliminated. On the other side, there is 16 a silent majority who wants the CBC to be successful. 17 I am pleased to see that this silent majority has a 18 voice at these important Commission hearings. 19 589 The main programs on Radio Two are 20 excellent. I hear a wide variety of music, literature 21 and opinions that are both instructive and 22 entertaining. It is evident that some autonomy is 23 given to local stations because a few Radio Two 24 broadcasts originate in Halifax, Vancouver and Calgary, 25 et cetera. There is a good representation of StenoTran 116 1 provincial music makers -- orchestras, choirs, et 2 cetera. 3 590 Unfortunately, the content of news 4 broadcasts follows the contemporary pattern of "if it's 5 a scandal or if it bleeds it leads", followed by all 6 the gloom and doom of the day. However, all the 7 overseas news reporters do an excellent job of 8 providing all of the facts on international news items 9 in a short space of time. 10 591 On the other hand, Radio One's "As it 11 Happens", which unfortunately has been severely 12 restricted by budget restraints, is an excellent news 13 program. It presents a wide variety of national and 14 international news items. The presentation and 15 production are specific, crisp, lively, instructing and 16 entertaining. This program is popular across America 17 and it should be a CBC "banner" program. 18 592 The CBC "National" is a mirror image 19 of commercial TV news broadcasts with all the negative 20 traits -- commonly known as Infotainment. 21 593 The Future: In my opinion, CBC and 22 Radio-Canada must develop programs which present every 23 positive aspect of the Canadian lifestyle, culture, 24 commerce, industry and our country, province by 25 province, to the Nation. StenoTran 117 1 594 To achieve this goal, there must be a 2 working partnership between the CBC, Radio-Canada and 3 the National Film Board. In addition, the provincial 4 CBC stations must be given total autonomy to produce 5 these programs. 6 595 The resulting programs will allow 7 Canadians to experience the sights, sounds and culture 8 of the people in every province. Most Canadians have 9 neither the money nor the time to travel to gain these 10 experiences first hand. 11 596 In addition, this understanding of 12 our fellow Canadians will create a unifying emotion, 13 which will be politically persuasive. This should 14 silence the CBC critics and the divisive forces in 15 Canada. 16 597 The following excellent Canadian 17 programs should be retained: 18 598 "Canadian Royal Air Farce" and "This 19 Hour Has 22 Minutes". These are watch dogs on the 20 actions and words of our politicians and power brokers. 21 599 "On the Road Again" and "Country 22 Canada" are programs which present Canadians to other 23 Canadians. 24 600 These programs must replace the 25 existing foreign shows. This no doubt will create a StenoTran 118 1 backlash from the American TV industry, which 2 incidentally is adequately represented on Canadian 3 commercial stations. They have to understand that this 4 is our broadcasting network, and they must be taught to 5 keep their noses out of it. 6 601 This suggestion will require 7 additional funding and in some instances additional 8 space for regional stations. In my opinion, this 9 funding should come from provincial contributions taken 10 from government gambling profits. The premiers and 11 other politicians have a lot to say about Canadian 12 unity. This is an opportunity for them to back up 13 their statements with money or alternatively keep their 14 mouths shut. 15 602 My gut feeling is that the CBC is an 16 autocratic pyramid shaped organization with the usual 17 barriers around each internal division. This 18 suggestion will require a complete revision of the 19 corporate organization. The guidelines for this 20 revision can be found in the book titled "Firing on all 21 Cylinders...the Service/Quality System for High Powered 22 Corporate Performance", authored by Jim Clemmens. 23 603 Personally speaking, when I hear that 24 a program has an executive producer, an associate 25 producer and a producer, I am inclined to think that StenoTran 119 1 the CBC has too many management levels. 2 604 I would suggest that "The National" 3 should be revised and present the news from the 4 provincial stations and allocate one 20-minute segment 5 to a detailed report on one major international event 6 that will affect Canada and Canadians. I am sure that 7 this can be achieved using current technology and the 8 excellent CBC foreign correspondents. 9 605 Finally, this suggestion will require 10 detailed and careful preparation; careful planning, 11 persistence and the involvement and dedication of all 12 Radio-Canada, CBC and National Film Board staff. 13 Adequate time for preparation is also essential. 14 606 I thank you for the opportunity to 15 express my opinion on the future of the CBC and to wish 16 you success in the daunting task of finalizing this 17 issue. 18 607 Thank you. 19 --- Applause / Applaudissements 20 608 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 21 Bingham. 22 609 Mr. Secretary. 23 1555 24 610 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 25 611 Ida Grosse, please. StenoTran 120 1 612 MS GROSSE: Do I have to turn my 2 microphone on? 3 613 MR. LAHAY: Yes, please turn on your 4 micropohone. 5 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 6 614 MS GROSSE: Good afternoon, everyone. 7 I don't have to tell you that this is the first time I 8 have done this kind of a presentation, if I forget to 9 turn on my mic. 10 615 I appreciate this opportunity to be 11 here on behalf of myself to speak to the CBC. As far 12 as I know, I am the only person who is still running 13 around with two "Vote For CBC" bumper stickers on her 14 car. I have been watching for others, but I haven't 15 seen them. 16 616 I am a senior who lives alone in 17 rural Saskatchewan, and I relate very much to what I 18 have heard from other rural people here. 19 617 I want to say that the CBC is like 20 family to me. I breakfast with Sheila and her team. I 21 lunch with Lindy and the cast, and I sup with Colin. 22 618 I do not have cable television. My 23 TV time is limited, but I do have my favourite 24 programs, and you have heard some of them mentioned 25 here. StenoTran 121 1 619 Many of my thoughts and feelings have 2 already been expressed here today, so I won't repeat 3 them. But I must say that CBC radio is very, very 4 vital to me in my life. 5 620 Local regions are not adequately 6 covered in national media. National coverage is too 7 much USA coverage, I find. It really irks me when the 8 national news comes on and the first item is something 9 that happened across the border, and something vital 10 that happened here gets second or third place. 11 621 Foreign news coverage is excellent. 12 I get to go all over the world. I can see Israel and 13 Istanbul and even India, which really broadens my 14 horizons. 15 622 Saskatchewan has an abundance of 16 distance. I don't have to tell you, but some of the 17 others might not know that. You can't drive many 18 kilometres to pick up a daily newspaper to get the 19 news. We depend on the CBC. 20 623 Rural areas would be very limited if 21 it were not for the CBC, particularly the radio, in 22 learning and hearing about world events. 23 624 I appreciate CBC's accent on the 24 people of the world as it is done on "As it Happens". 25 The morning programs that we have had with Peter StenoTran 122 1 Gzowski and Alan Maitland really open the world up for 2 those of us who keep our time in the kitchen. They are 3 great company. 4 625 I feel the interviews done with 5 people involved in the news are more real and almost 6 like speaking with a neighbour as opposed to what comes 7 through the written word. 8 626 Recently I have been out of the 9 country for a time, and this gave me a vivid reality 10 check on how well we are served by the CBC, even with 11 all of its problems and its faults. 12 627 It's something like Gilles(ph) Brown 13 said: that the farther away you get from the mountain, 14 the more vivid it is to you. That is what I saw with 15 the coverage I witnessed when I was away. It really 16 made me value what we have here. 17 628 The human touch is non existent on 18 CNN coverage. To me, there one sees a very marked view 19 of world affairs. As a senior living alone, I need the 20 company of the CBC, and I know I speak for many others 21 who also have grey hair. 22 629 I just read that 12 per cent of 23 Canadians are aged over 65 years of age, so we are a 24 formidable group. 25 630 I was also told by someone who could StenoTran 123 1 not come, or was not brave enough to brave the roads to 2 come in this morning from outlying areas, and was 3 disappointed about the geographic location; that there 4 was just one spot in Saskatchewan to come to. Much as 5 I appreciate this opportunity, there are those who 6 would have liked to have come too. 7 631 I feel keeping company with the CBC 8 helps our general health, especially as we are older, 9 and wards off depression. Where else are programs like 10 "Tapestry", "Quirks and Quarks", "As it Happens" and 11 "Ideas" -- for which I have a very special spot in my 12 heart -- "Richardson's Round-up", or, as I said, our 13 local morning programs. 14 632 "Cross Country Checkup" gives you a 15 feeling of the pulse throughout the country. You can 16 hear the people from the east coast to the west coast 17 on that Sunday afternoon program. It is so important 18 to me that I try to schedule my travelling during that 19 time, which means I don't get on the line, but I do get 20 to hear. 21 633 These are some of the mainstays in my 22 listening calendar. 23 634 When I called to make this 24 appointment, I wasn't given much guidance on what would 25 happen, so I didn't have a very prepared transcript. I StenoTran 124 1 am glad I was here to listen and to voice my thoughts. 2 But I did want to answer your questions on the question 3 that came out to me. 4 635 The first question was: 5 "In your view, how well does the 6 CBC fulfil its role as the 7 national public broadcaster?" 8 636 I think it needs broader horizons and 9 more Canadian artistic promotions; larger Canadian 10 content and news happening to people; and history truly 11 related to Quebec and truly related to the USA. 12 637 Local coverage is regional in 13 content; national coverage should have primary emphasis 14 on Canadian news. I feel the CBC remains a strong 15 bonding force for Canada. I believe it is essential to 16 our country remaining a country. 17 638 I would like to say here another 18 obvious thing that hit me very forcibly when I was out 19 of the country. We are in a war for our minds and for 20 our air space. This hit me so hard I became very 21 frightened about what is happening to our country as a 22 country. I think it really emphasizes the importance 23 of the CBC. We need it. 24 639 Programs like "Morning Edition" on 25 radio give good rapport with local events, and "People StenoTran 125 1 Noon Edition" provides links with agriculture, industry 2 in our province. And as Saskatchewan is such an 3 agricultural province, we certainly need to all 4 understand the conditions there. 5 640 "As it Happens" opens the window to 6 rural events and people. 7 641 The second question on your form is: 8 "How well does the CBC serve the 9 public on a regional as well as 10 at a national level?" 11 642 I believe I have already answered 12 that with all the points I have made. 13 "Should the programming provided 14 by CBC radio and television be 15 different from that provided by 16 other broadcasters? If so, what 17 should these differences be?" 18 643 I think it should have more definite 19 Canadian focus. I would like to see true 20 documentaries, dramas dealing with things like our 21 Aboriginal people, our true history. 22 644 I was surprised to learn a fact of 23 history that really blew me off the chair. Long ago, 24 in the seventeen hundreds when there was a civil war 25 down across the line, and Britain was involved with the StenoTran 126 1 southern forces. For that reason, they were sent a 2 bill in many, many millions of dollars to pay for war 3 damages, and the deal was that if the seceded Canada, 4 they would cancel the debt. 5 645 That is the kind of history we have 6 to hear. I think we should know our background. 7 646 Not only are we rich in resources in 8 Canada, but we are also rich in ethnic cultures. We 9 could do a lot of studies on the Dukhobors, the 10 Mennonites, many other groups that are here. We, as 11 Canadians, should know about these people, should know 12 fully about them. The CBC could serve this purpose. 13 "Is there a special role that 14 the CBC should play? 15 647 Broaden our horizons in art, 16 literature, music, history. We need to learn and 17 experience full Canadian culture. 18 648 I thank you for this opportunity. 19 649 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 20 Grosse. Drive carefully. 21 650 Mr. Secretary. 22 1605 23 651 MR. LAHAY: thank you, Madam chair. 24 652 Brian Cousins, please. 25 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION StenoTran 127 1 653 MR. COUSINS: Thank you. I am here 2 today because I highly value the CBC for its 3 contribution to the cultural and political wellbeing of 4 Canada, but I believe the CBC's future potential is in 5 jeopardy. At the outset, I should confess to a past 6 association with the corporation that no doubt 7 influences my thoughts and my concerns. 8 654 I was employed by the CBC for 22 9 years in Inuvik, Iqaluit, Thunder Bay, Ottawa and 10 Regina. My last assignment was to serve as Regional 11 Director and Director of Television for CBC English 12 operations in Saskatchewan from 1992 to 1996. I chose 13 to resign two years ago. I was simply unwilling to 14 continue what I view as the dismantling of CBC in this 15 province. I was also concerned about certain 16 programming decisions being imposed upon and being 17 chosen by CBC television management. 18 655 I maintain my concerns of two years 19 ago, but I present them to you today as a listener and 20 a viewer. I would like to limit my observations and 21 suggestions to three general areas relating to the CBC. 22 656 First, its mix of regional and 23 national television programming; second, the need for a 24 more distinctive television service; and third, the 25 issue of public participation in the corporation. StenoTran 128 1 657 Personally, I believe CBC is much 2 like the company that it was created to reflect. 3 Canada is a massive nation with the confederation that, 4 not surprisingly, includes tensions between its centre 5 and its regions. There is a constant challenge to 6 balance regional and national interests. 7 658 It is my sense, having lived in 8 several regions, that the confederation works best when 9 key regional aspirations are adequately addressed. I 10 would describe these key aspirations as an adequate 11 level of regional autonomy, a fair share of regional 12 opportunity and a nationally recognized sense of 13 regional identity and value. 14 659 Similarly, I believe our national 15 public broadcaster could better meet its mandate if 16 these legitimate regional aspirations were more fully 17 addressed within the operations of the CBC. 18 660 However, largely because of the 19 government's attack on CBC budget, the 20 regional/national mix of CBC television programming is 21 seriously imbalanced. This weakens the relevance of 22 CBC service in the regions such as Saskatchewan, which 23 in turn could undermine CBC television's national role. 24 The result may be to further erode the public's 25 relation to and confidence in the CBC. StenoTran 129 1 661 Between 1991 and 1996 CBC 2 Saskatchewan's budgets were reduced by about 25 per 3 cent, but with new technology, new approaches to 4 co-production with independent producers, new 5 flexibility in CBC union agreements and a lot of hard 6 work by some very talented staff, the quantity and 7 quality of CBC Saskatchewan television production was 8 growing. 9 662 In addition to the first priority of 10 maintaining strong regional journalism, four regional 11 television production priorities had been established. 12 They included providing a television stage for 13 Saskatchewan performers, producing television programs 14 reflecting the interests and ideas of Saskatchewan's 15 young people, developing programs that could help 16 bridge the serious communication gap between aboriginal 17 and non-aboriginal peoples in this province, and 18 continuing the expansion and variety of co-production 19 activity with independent Saskatchewan producers for 20 both regional and national broadcast. 21 663 But with the Federal government's 22 last swing of the axe, and with the apparent 23 acquiescence of the CBC's board of directors, two years 24 ago these regional initiatives came crashing to an end; 25 and with their demise came denied opportunities for StenoTran 130 1 Saskatchewan writers, performers, artists and 2 technicians, to say nothing of denied opportunities for 3 Saskatchewan viewers. 4 664 Resources for regional journalism 5 were significantly reduced. Resources for all other 6 programming, budgets and people were wiped out. 7 665 As with Canada itself, the CBC cannot 8 meet its mandate, cannot properly contribute to the 9 health of the federation if its regional aspirations 10 are thwarted. Canadians need a CBC board of directors 11 that will stand up for the CBC's role as defined in the 12 Broadcasting Act. The ineffectiveness of the CBC in 13 this regard is disheartening. 14 666 Incidentally, I note that 15 Saskatchewan has not had a representative on the CBC 16 board since 1971. 17 667 The corporation's unions seem more 18 willing to speak up for public broadcasting than the 19 corporation's board. If neither the Federal Cabinet 20 nor the CBC board will defend the Broadcasting Act and 21 the CBC's regional mandate, we must look to the CRTC to 22 address this issue through the licence renewal process. 23 668 The lack of commitment to CBC 24 regional programming provides a convenient segue to the 25 need for CBC television to become a more distinctive StenoTran 131 1 and more valued Canadian television service. CBC can 2 be justifiably proud in demonstrating that its program 3 content has been and continues to be distinctive when 4 compared to private sector broadcasters, particularly 5 with respect to the variety and magnitude of Canadian 6 programming. But CBC television continues to behave 7 and portray itself as just another network, obsessed 8 with competition and with the private network image. 9 669 Let me mention just two examples with 10 regional implications. 11 670 Regional CBC news as repeatedly been 12 kicked around as "The National", moved from 11 o'clock, 13 to 10 o'clock, to 9 o'clock, back to 10 o'clock. Then 14 "The National" was scheduled twice on the main network 15 and twice on CBC Newsworld so that it could 16 cumulatively claim a larger audience than CTV's 17 national news. 18 671 "The National" is a terrific program, 19 but a fourth nightly broadcast of "The National" in 20 this region, and every other region, at the expense of 21 providing a regional news alternative at 11 o'clock, is 22 really just a Toronto-centric decision that offends the 23 sensibilities of the regions. 24 672 A second example. Instead of taking 25 a fresh alternative approach to regional news and StenoTran 132 1 current affairs, CBC insists of having supper-hour 2 shows competing head to head with private stations in 3 every region, sometimes with dismal ratings. The 4 opportunity to be truly distinctive, to carve out a 5 niche to provide an alternative is lost because CBC 6 continues to roll out formula-driven smiling news teams 7 behind the anchor desk, just like every other station. 8 673 For the public, if CBC television 9 looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a 10 duck, chances are it will be considered a duck, no 11 matter how special its feathers. It is time for CBC 12 television, in my view, to move to the other side of 13 the pond to become a swan. 14 674 Time does not permit me to discuss 15 the many ways in which this might be done and how such 16 a transformation might actually increase its ratings. 17 But let me mention one essential element that would 18 make it more distinctive, and that is regional hosting 19 and regional programming. 20 675 By definition, greater regional 21 content will contribute to the distinctiveness of CBC 22 in the 200-channel universe. All of the new channels 23 are national or international in content and target 24 audience, and private stations do little regional 25 programming of any depth beyond local news. Even a StenoTran 133 1 modest commitment to regional programming would also 2 help the corporation to better reflect the regions of 3 the country, one to another. 4 676 Let me add that I do not personally 5 believe that CBC should become more distinctive by only 6 providing alternative minority audience programming. 7 This is a cherished model for CBC radio, but if applied 8 to CBC television, the corporation's programming might 9 reach less than a quarter of the population. That is 10 not good enough. 11 677 I believe CBC television must 12 continue to include significant blocks of mass appeal 13 Canadian programming in its schedule. It must continue 14 to help counter the staggering social influence of 15 American programming with Canadian television 16 experiences, presented through a mix of popular and 17 alternative programming. 18 678 Just a short aside here. To ensure a 19 symbiotic relationship between CBC radio and 20 television, and to use resources sufficiently, I have 21 to tell you my personal view is and has been that radio 22 and television's operations at the regional level 23 should be fully integrated. The current split, 24 radio/television, may have reason in Toronto, but I 25 believe is wasteful and counter-productive when applied StenoTran 134 1 in the regions. 2 679 Let me conclude with my final point. 3 680 Through these public consultations 4 being conducted by the CRTC, the Commission is helping 5 to compensate for the inability of the CBC to regularly 6 engage the public in the business of public 7 broadcasting. Similar to CBC television often being 8 considered just another network, I fear the CBC itself 9 is increasingly seen as just another corporation. 10 681 Although Canadians may understand 11 that the CBC is intended to serve public interests and 12 use its public funds to do so, the CBC has not been 13 very successful in achieving public accountability and 14 public participation in its operations. 15 682 To some extent, this has enabled the 16 government to ruthlessly attack the CBC because for 17 many Canadians the CBC is seen as aloof and distant. 18 Canadians lack a sense of ownership and influence when 19 it comes to the CBC. I believe this will only change 20 if there is a sincere and philosophical commitment 21 within the CBC to lower the drawbridge and let the 22 public cross the moat. Again, this can I believe best 23 be done on a regional basis. 24 683 In fact, here is a suggestion -- and 25 I will just wrap this up right away: It may be time to StenoTran 135 1 consider creating, at almost no cost, a citizens 2 council for each region, consisting of members 3 appointed by existing organizations representing the 4 broad audience sectors. We would then want to ensure 5 that regional and national management in an open public 6 forum would meet and respond to such a council at least 7 once or twice a year. 8 684 There has to be those connections to 9 the community, the ownership that would come from it. 10 Among other things, I think a citizens council might 11 also heighten public awareness and discussion about the 12 role of journalism in a democracy, why it is important, 13 and why there are serious consequences if journalism is 14 left solely to the private corporate sector. 15 685 Madam Commissioner, the CBC is a 16 national treasure. It is an essential element of 17 Canada's identity. I think it is time to put the 18 public back in public broadcasting. 19 686 Thank you very much. 20 --- Applause / Applaudissements 21 687 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 22 Cousins. 23 688 Mr. Secretary. 24 1616 25 689 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. StenoTran 136 1 690 Norman Bray, please. 2 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 3 691 MR. BRAY: Commissioners, ladies and 4 gentlemen, the Regina Chapter of the Council of 5 Canadians is pleased to speak in support of public 6 broadcasting and in support of the Canadian 7 Broadcasting Corporation. 8 692 I should say that the Council of 9 Canadians are advocates but they are not lawyers, so in 10 your list of participants the spelling of "counsel" 11 should be changed to the alternative. 12 693 I would like to speak my agreement 13 with all the excellent presentations that we have heard 14 this afternoon. 15 694 Canada shares a border and shares 16 communications with the dominant United States of 17 America. Canada is thus submerged in the messages of a 18 foreign nation. The CBC is one of the few means by 19 which we provide a Canadian voice and a Canadian 20 perspective to inform us of what is happening in Canada 21 and in the world. So CBC is essential to the 22 preservation of a Canadian identity. 23 695 There is no adequate alternative in 24 sight. It is likely it will always be more expedient 25 for a commercial broadcaster in Canada to import United StenoTran 137 1 States programming than to develop Canadian 2 programming. The mere presence of U.S. programming, 3 along with other U.S. communications, infers to 4 Canadians that things Canadian are inferior, or why 5 else wouldn't we see Canadian material being presented 6 and talked about? 7 696 I want to give you a personal 8 example. 9 697 When I was attending university, I 10 worked one summer with the pipeline. The skilled 11 workers on the pipeline were from Texas, Oklahoma and 12 Louisiana, and I would be enthralled by their stories 13 of working across the lines in North America and into 14 Africa. I believed that these were the people that 15 knew how to pipeline. 16 698 There was on the crew a Canadian 17 operator, a backhoe operator from Manitoba. I said to 18 him one day: "These Americans really know how to build 19 pipelines." And he said: "Oh, I don't know. I think 20 a Canadian can do just as well. Me and other 21 Canadians, we certainly can pipeline." 22 699 And of course they can. We have 23 proven that. But why would I, as a 20-year-old 24 Saskatchewan youth about to graduate from our 25 provincial university have such a deplorable attitude StenoTran 138 1 towards Canada and Canadians? While I didn't argue 2 with this operator of the backhoe, I walked away from 3 the conversation and said to myself: "No, he is 4 totally wrong and he is lucky to have a semi-skilled 5 job in this operation." 6 700 Why would you have such a deplorable 7 attitude? I think it has to be because you have had 20 8 years of absorbing American movies, American 9 publications, American TV and American broadcasting. 10 It is insidious the way this inferior complex affects 11 Canadians. We need to do something about it, because 12 it is still happening. 13 701 Canadians will need to pay for an 14 adequate CBC service. This expense should be seen as 15 an investment in Canada and in the continuation of our 16 nation, not as a cost. There seems to be a sure 17 connection between a Canada that appears to have lost 18 its way, has become increasingly colonized by the 19 United States in recent years and a CBC that seems to 20 have become confined and neutered. 21 702 We might measure the worth of the CBC 22 by its listeners and its viewers. There is also a 23 wider gauge. CBC seems to set a standard for private 24 as well as public broadcasters. A strong CBC forces 25 private competitors to improve services; a weakened CBC StenoTran 139 1 allows private broadcasting to decline as well. 2 703 A healthy nation needs to know about 3 itself, to have reports and opinions from all segments 4 of the country. Citizens need to know what is going on 5 in the world, how Canadians fit into the world, and 6 what effect Canada is having on the world. We need to 7 know how people around the world are responding to 8 Canada and to Canadians. 9 704 The alternative to the CBC can be 10 frightening in the poverty of its offerings. For 11 radio, there is basically two choices: CBC or the 12 other station. Although there may be several other 13 stations, most non-CBC stations tend to have the same 14 fare: canned programs of western music or hits of the 15 past, advertisements and little else, although there 16 may be a syndicated U.S. columnist or some U.S. or 17 local talk radio. 18 705 For information or for challenging or 19 interesting opinion, or to be somewhat aware of current 20 events in Canadian industry or finance, or to be aware 21 of the arts in Canada, the listener must return to CBC 22 radio. 23 706 In the case of television, we select 24 from perhaps 60 channels but perhaps half a dozen of 25 these will be Canadian; and on these, most viewing time StenoTran 140 1 will be on U.S. programming. Only CBC has been able to 2 bring significant Canadian programming. 3 707 CBC is not as good as it was. 4 Perhaps we recall a golden period in the past. The CBC 5 is at increasing peril. We fear that the CBC is being 6 sabotaged by the which should be 7 its defender and preserver. 8 708 The fact that we have a strike now, 9 which will certainly be seen as diminishing the worth 10 of CBC -- and no doubt will -- may be a strike that has 11 been forced by management and by government to increase 12 that sabotaging of that service. 13 709 The CBC has suffered over the years 14 from cuts to funding. This shows most obviously in the 15 amount of repeat broadcasting. A program originally 16 broadcast a year ago may be rebroadcast on a CBC 17 program in the morning and then that program will be 18 repeated in the evening. 19 710 The international services suffered, 20 the national services suffered and at the regional 21 level the CBC has almost ceased to exist. 22 711 Just as CBC is not as good as it was, 23 private radio and television is not as good as it used 24 to be and we have noted that these are related. 25 712 Private broadcasting also suffers StenoTran 141 1 from consolidation of ownership and from large 2 cutbacks. 3 713 Broadcasting throughout has become 4 less involved with hard news and investigation and with 5 public service. It has become more geared to 6 entertainment, more frivolous, much less informing or 7 educating. Sadly, it appears that broadcasting is 8 primarily intended to promote commercial films and 9 musical releases. 10 714 We suspect that the CBC is being made 11 less attractive on purpose. Government strategy seems 12 to be to make the CBC disappointing so that even its 13 strongest supporters who are represented here today 14 lose heart and say, "Well, if that's all there is, kill 15 it." Those with progressive views find that they are 16 losing the opportunity to express their opinions on a 17 neutered CBC that operates in fear of government's ire. 18 They will also say, "If that's all there is, let it 19 die." 20 715 We believe that the CBC did fulfil 21 its role as a national public broadcaster effectively 22 in the past. Now it's not as good as it might be. It 23 must restore effectiveness, especially with regard to 24 regional services. 25 716 Should CBC fulfil its role in a StenoTran 142 1 different manner with the coming of the millennium? 2 The CBC will find that it must be aware of changing 3 technology such as the Internet and that it must adapt 4 to these changes, but its basic mandate should be 5 unchanged. It appears that the famed Year 2000 will be 6 plagued with a heavy load of problems, economic, 7 political, technical as well as riots and wars. It is 8 not going to be a millennium, as you might expect. 9 717 A major consideration for the CBC in 10 Year 2000 will be to re-examine what is left of an 11 autonomous Canada and to determine what the CBC can do 12 to help to restore nationalhood. We have stressed the 13 failing of the CBC at the regional level. However, in 14 a rural province that is consolidating in every way, 15 regional broadcasting is essential. 16 718 CBC broadcasting should be different 17 from other broadcasters. It must serve to unite 18 Canadians, must help to maintain a Canadian perspective 19 and the Canadian identity. It must develop Canadian 20 broadcasting and performing talent. It must try to 21 unite French and English Canada. It must document and 22 demonstrate the place of aboriginal Canadians. Profit 23 cannot be the controlling guideline for such 24 broadcasting. 25 719 There is a continuing role just to do StenoTran 143 1 a good job of journalism and of broadcasting. There 2 are specific audiences that must be served, rural 3 Canada, minorities, interest groups, that require a 4 publicly financed broadcaster to meet their needs. 5 Those needs increase in a changing and consolidating 6 Canada. Canada can afford a reliable, authoritative 7 public broadcaster, a public broadcaster that is free 8 from government control but assured public funding. A 9 public broadcaster, not a state broadcaster or a 10 propagandist for government. 11 720 We must beware of those who argue for 12 the extinction of the CBC, that would expand the way 13 for those opposing the CBC to have their assumptions 14 and their opinions dominate our airwaves. 15 721 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 16 Mr. Bray. 17 --- Applause / Applaudissements 18 722 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary. 19 1628 20 723 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 21 724 M. Marcel Michaud, s'il vous plaît. 22 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 23 725 M. MICHAUD: Madame la Présidente, 24 chers Membres du Conseil, mesdames et messieurs, un 25 grand merci de m'avoir permis aujourd'hui de venir ici StenoTran 144 1 et d'exprimer mes idées en ce qui a trait à la radio et 2 à la télévision française, mais aussi les quelques 3 références que je vais faire au CBC s'appliquent 4 également. 5 726 Je viens de Valbourg(ph), deux heures 6 de route d'ici et je travaille au Collège Mathieu, une 7 école privée résidentielle française, la seule et 8 unique dans l'ouest du Canada. Je suis venu aussi 9 aujourd'hui parce que moi aussi j'ai peur qu'on coupe 10 davantage ces services du côté anglais et 11 particulièrement du côté français. 12 727 Deux commentaires avant. 13 Aujourd'hui, la technologie ne nous permet pas de ne 14 pas avoir accès à la radio ou à la télévision. Il est 15 important que les gens soient branchés et qu'ils aient 16 les signaux auxquels ils ont droit. Je dis ça parce 17 que je viens de passer six ans dans le nord de 18 l'Alberta dans la région de Slave Lake et High Prairie 19 et ça été très frustrant pour moi de ne pas pouvoir 20 recevoir les signaux de la radio et de la télévision, 21 en particulier, parce que le patron de cablevision, et 22 j'ai vu ça aussi il y a à peu près un mois, en 23 Saskatchewan, où le patron avait coupé le câble. Donc, 24 on ne pouvait pas recevoir les signaux. 25 728 Ce n'est pas acceptable, de nos StenoTran 145 1 jours. On ne peut pas laisser passer ces choses car 2 les gens ont droit au moins à un service ou un minimum 3 de service, même si ce n'est qu'un service, un canal 4 sur 37. Ce n'est pas trop demandé. 5 729 Mais j'ai remarqué aussi au cours des 6 années une baisse remarquable en ce qui a trait aux 7 services, surtout locaux et régionaux. Je suis certain 8 qu'en majorité cette baisse a été le résultat de 9 coupures budgétaires mais aussi peut-être 10 philosophiques et d'orientation. 11 730 Mais personnellement, j'ai fait 12 l'expérience que ce n'est pas seulement ces coupures-là 13 qui affectent notre clientèle mais c'est la qualité de 14 la personnalité qui est à la radio, à la télévision, et 15 qui donne les services. Je peux parler par exemple 16 d'Allan Maitland ou Peter Gzowski ou Vicki Gabereau et 17 même "Les Impudences(ph)" de Michael Enright. Mais il 18 y a quand même une qualité qui est là et la qualité du 19 service de la personnalité qui est là est très 20 importante parce que cette qualité-là, surtout au 21 niveau local, au niveau régional, c'est ce qui fait 22 coller les gens. Quand le monsieur a parlé 23 justement... M. Cousins a parlé de la connection à la 24 communauté, c'est très important. Et donc, la 25 personnalité... être présent dans la communauté, c'est StenoTran 146 1 ce qui nous garde à l'écoute. Je peux parler de "Clan 2 destin". Je peux parler des "Gens" d'Anne Brochu 3 sur... Alors, ces gens-là doivent être à la 4 communauté. Ce sont des personnages qui doivent être 5 présents dans le local et être au sein de la communauté 6 qui donnent cette connection. 7 731 Je vois et je remarque, même à cause 8 des coupures, un dévouement extraordinaire chez le 9 personnel à l'intérieur de notre communauté 10 francophone. Je sais que souvent ces gens-là sont 11 emmerdants ou sont fatigants parce qu'ils osent nous 12 demander des questions qu'on n'ose même pas se poser 13 nous-mêmes. Mais néanmoins, on voit que malgré les 14 coupures énormes de la dernière décennie, ils ont su 15 bien choisir pour continuer à desservir une petite 16 population si fragile ici dans l'ouest et plus 17 particulièrement en Saskatchewan. 18 732 Parmi la programmation de la SRC, la 19 Société ici en Saskatchewan, et à cause du dévouement 20 de travail continu de ces gens-là et la raison de la 21 qualité, il y a une attention très claire qui ressort 22 parmi tout cela et c'est l'intérêt particulier et 23 sincère non seulement à la survie mais à 24 l'épanouissement de notre communauté francophone, et 25 malgré le peu de population, on essaie dans la mesure StenoTran 147 1 du possible de représenter et de faire valoir les 2 Fransaskois et les Fransaskoises. 3 733 Dans une situation minoritaire telle 4 que nous vivons où l'assimilation et la facilité 5 d'accès à l'information anglaise est à tous les coins 6 de rue, ce n'est pas facile de maintenir cette 7 présence, cet esprit, ce dévouement, sans partir au 8 désespoir. Est-ce que ça vaut la peine avec si peu de 9 gens? Croyez-moi, la radio et la télévision sont à la 10 croisière de notre survie. 11 734 Je vais vous dire pourquoi il est 12 tellement facile de ne plus être à l'écoute, parce 13 qu'essentiellement, il est trop facile de se tourner du 14 côté anglais, non seulement parce qu'on y retrouve 15 tellement de choses locales et en général on a besoin 16 de se renseigner, et lorsque la programmation nous 17 vient d'un coin du pays dont on connaît moins bien son 18 vécu, on a tendance de décrocher. C'est ce qui peut 19 facilement se faire lorsqu'il y a trop de programmation 20 qui nous provient de l'extérieur du Québec et de 21 l'Ontario. 22 735 Pour moi, au Collège Mathieu, pour 23 promouvoir le français dans un pays bilingue, il nous 24 faut de très bons services et dans notre local, la 25 programmation en français est essentielle. Alors, pour StenoTran 148 1 ne pas décrocher, il faut la qualité. Il faut 2 connaître les issues. Il faut connaître les gens avec 3 qui on travaille, les gens qui travaillent dans les 4 services. 5 736 Alors, pour ces raisons, j'aimerais 6 qu'on considère très sérieusement les points suivants 7 déterminant l'orientation de la Société Radio-Canada. 8 737 J'ai vécu de 1974 à 1978 en Allemagne 9 et là j'avais un ami qui venait du Québec. Je ne me 10 souviens pas de la date, mais lorsque Gordon Sinclair 11 est décédé, il ne savait même pas qui était Gordon 12 Sinclair. Pourtant, c'était un homme qui avait une 13 renommée; détesté ou aimé, ça ne fait rien. J'ai 14 réalisé à ce moment-là qu'on avait une issue d'unité 15 nationale qui nous manquait. On avait les différents 16 renseignements. Comment est-ce qu'on peut s'empêcher 17 d'avoir un pays uni quand on ne reconnaît même pas les 18 supposément héros ou les gens qui ont une certaine 19 réputation quand même? 20 738 Alors, c'est triste de voir ces 21 choses-là et je vois que la Société Radio-Canada c'est 22 l'instrument qu'il nous faut pour continuer à oeuvrer, 23 à unir notre pays, du côté francophone et du côté 24 anglophone, tout en respectant les services. 25 739 Donc, la Société Radio-Canada, le StenoTran 149 1 CRTC, les gouvernements et les pouvoirs visionnels 2 doivent reconnaître le rôle extrêmement difficile que 3 doit jouer Radio-Canada. Elle doit tout à la fois 4 maintenir une vision très claire de l'unité nationale. 5 Elle doit le faire en tenant les gens à travers le pays 6 à l'écoute de l'un et de l'autre, aux issues d'intérêt 7 à la fois national, régional et local. Sans cette 8 vision, elle est réduite à une société privée sujette à 9 l'influence de ceux qui paient la note, et si cela 10 arrive, on perdra beaucoup de notre identité canadienne 11 qui, elle aussi, est très fragile face à l'influence et 12 l'interférence du dollar américain. 13 740 La Société se doit aussi de maintenir 14 et d'épanouir la culture canadienne et plus 15 particulièrement de la francophonie. C'est cela qui 16 lui donne sa survie et maintient l'intérêt de son 17 public. Ce n'est pas la concurrence d'autres 18 entreprises mais plutôt sa vision. C'est la qualité 19 qui nous est propre, que les Canadiens peuvent donner, 20 et c'est l'âme de qui nous sommes. Dans le passé, on a 21 osé offrir des services très uniques. Ceci doit 22 continuer à se faire. 23 741 En anglais, il y a un dicton que 24 j'avais appris ça fait longtemps, puis je m'en suis 25 servi souvent: StenoTran 150 1 "If we think education is 2 expensive, we ought to try 3 ignorance." 4 742 Il est vrai que l'éducation d'un 5 peuple coûte cher, mais il faut savoir qu'un peuple 6 ignorant, peu renseigné, sans éducation, coûte encore 7 plus cher, que ce ne soit pas des coupures ou des 8 manques de finances qui changent son orientation. 9 743 La Société Radio-Canada devrait 10 s'occuper de répondre à sa clientèle canadienne avec du 11 contenu canadien. Ceci n'empêche aucunement d'avoir de 12 la programmation d'intérêt et d'éducation 13 internationale telle que des documentaires comme "Les 14 grands reportages", mais elle doit rester fidèle à sa 15 communauté. 16 744 Ce que nous recevons en ce moment en 17 programmation est le minimum qui puisse être fait à 18 notre communauté sans mettre encore plus en danger 19 cette petite communauté francophone déjà si fragile. 20 On ne peut plus souffrir d'autres coupures, soit 21 financières ou ressources humaines. 22 745 L'an 2000 devra voir à donner un 23 mandat spécifique à la Société Radio-Canada en ce qui a 24 trait aux services locaux et régionaux, tout en gardant 25 cette vision unique d'unité canadienne. On va en avoir StenoTran 151 1 besoin. 2 746 En beaucoup de sens, la Société de 3 CBC est au coeur de notre communauté. Il ne faut pas 4 perdre ça. La CBC est le coeur de la culture 5 anglophone ici au Canada. Il faut le garder ce coeur 6 et non pas tomber dans le mainstream tel que d'autres 7 essaient de faire. À travers la CBC, la Société 8 Radio-Canada devrait être à ma porte et la porte de 9 chacun de vous. 10 747 Je vous remercie de m'avoir permis de 11 vous adresser la parole aujourd'hui. J'en suis très 12 reconnaissant et j'espère que la Société Radio-Canada 13 aura toujours des gens de chez nous autant que des gens 14 d'ailleurs pour bâtir un meilleur Canada. Merci 15 beaucoup. 16 --- Applause / Applaudissements 17 748 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, 18 Monsieur Michaud. 19 749 Mr. Secretary. 20 750 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 21 751 I would like to call the remaining 22 presenters we have this afternoon of a total of eight 23 more: Cathy and Andy Anderson, Olive Lukey, 24 Mary Yanko, John O'Donaghue, Tasha Hubbard, 25 Don Archbold, Marge Robinson, and Susan StenoTran 152 1 Hopkins-McQuarrie please. 2 752 If you wouldn't mind coming forward 3 to the front table. 4 753 Thank you. 5 754 THE CHAIRPERSON: Hello. We will 6 just take five minutes for everybody to get settled and 7 then we will start. 8 --- Recess / Pause 9 755 MR. LAHAY: (Off microphone/sans 10 microphone) presenters this afternoon. If we can ask 11 you to remember the 10-minute time limit, if you can, 12 please. 13 1648 14 756 Cathy and Andy Anderson, please. 15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 16 757 MR. ANDERSON: Madam Chairman, thank 17 you for the opportunity. 18 758 I think one of the first comments I 19 would make is that the mind can only absorb what the 20 seat can endure, and I think the Commissioners have 21 done very well this afternoon. 22 759 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: You realize we 23 will be here until 10:00. 24 760 MR. ANDERSON: I realize that. 25 761 I'm going to keep it very short for StenoTran 153 1 myself and then Cathy will talk, and then we have to 2 leave immediately because she has a sick parent that we 3 have to move towards. 4 762 But on reflecting on the remarks of 5 the people that have made -- 6 763 MR. LAHAY: Sir, could you speak up 7 please? They are signalling you. 8 764 MR. ANDERSON: Just some reflection 9 on the remarks of the presenters earlier this 10 afternoon. 11 765 Most of them I think have said what 12 we all tend to believe, that there is a need, an 13 essential need, for a strong public broadcasting system 14 in the country. 15 766 I think one of the things that struck 16 me about it was that there is a common theme that shows 17 while they are diverse in their interests there is that 18 need for public broadcasting committed to the promotion 19 of an intelligent, well-informed citizenry, and that 20 the CBC mandate clearly should not be considered to be 21 elitist, which is I think a very cheap shot by a lot of 22 critics who tend to think that simply because it 23 attempts to create a well-informed public that it is 24 somehow appealing to less than a majority of the 25 people. I think one of the things that also they do StenoTran 154 1 when they contribute to a well-informed public is that 2 they convey the values nationally and regionally 3 throughout the country. 4 767 Just an anecdote for the Commission. 5 I spent two years travelling this province for the 6 Canadian Taxpayers Federation as kind of a 7 semi-retirement activity of mine, and I was 8 particularly interested in finding out who were the 9 people who were in fact promoting, shall we say, 10 responsible or prudent financial management of the 11 resources of the country. I didn't know whether I 12 would be meeting people in rural and urban Saskatchewan 13 who were red necks or right wing or left wing or 14 whatever. 15 768 One of the things I found, from 16 sitting in about 2,000 farm kitchens over those two 17 years, is that CBC radio was the absolute standard of 18 listening in rural Saskatchewan. In many of the 19 businesses that I stopped to talk to about their 20 particular requirements, I found again comments where 21 there was -- and, again, it was a point -- there was 22 such an appeal to the radio that several of the 23 business people that I talked to mentioned that they 24 would have been very pleased to have been able to 25 advertise on CBC radio. It's a point that where the StenoTran 155 1 people listen, that's where business wants to be. Now, 2 that may go contrary to the grain of some of the 3 people, but it was an expression of interest. 4 769 So the questions that you asked, the 5 first question: How well does it serve the public? I 6 think obviously not as well as it could and should be 7 expected to. 8 770 The next question, the difference 9 between national and regional? I think it has been 10 conveyed to you very well, that regional has been 11 suffering. 12 771 The question that should be asked is: 13 How can you really serve the national interest if you 14 are not serving regional interests? Because, after 15 all, all national is is the synthesis of regional 16 activity and regional points of view. 17 772 When you think about what it should 18 be doing, sure it should be obviously different from 19 any other private broadcaster because, first of all, 20 they shouldn't be driven by the bottom line, a point 21 that was pointed out earlier. 22 773 One of the constant criticisms that's 23 coming from the United States these days is the dumbing 24 down of a nation through the constant lowering of 25 standards in television broadcasting. I think one of StenoTran 156 1 the things that we have to worry about in this country, 2 where we are so well spread out, is that we stay so 3 well informed so that we don't remain ignorant of the 4 aspirations and the needs of the diverse peoples that 5 make up this country of ours. 6 774 Finally, what should be a specific 7 role? I think one of the things that you want to 8 really avoid is what bureaucrats try to define. 9 775 If you talk about defining the 10 specific role of the CBC as a national public 11 broadcaster, then in fact you may be in danger of 12 limiting its ability to be flexible and reflect the 13 interests of the citizens of this country. I would say 14 that if you go forward to the government, you have to 15 put a strong case in front of them that there has to be 16 a great deal of flexibility for those creative people 17 who make up that kind of media to be able to respond to 18 those things and they need the resources to do that. 19 You simply cannot have creativity and flexibility on a 20 bare budget. I think all of us have to recognize that 21 if you are going to have a good national public system, 22 an average cost of $50 a year per citizen is not a high 23 price to pay. 24 776 I will pass the rest of this on to my 25 wife, Cathy. StenoTran 157 1 777 MRS. ANDERSON: Thank you for this 2 opportunity. I have never done this before and I'm 3 kind of scared. 4 778 Anyway. I'm a CBC baby, and I have 5 grown up, but in between those awful teenage years I 6 wasn't a CBC person. I hated it. I thought it was 7 yucky, but I came back. My kids thought it was yucky. 8 They are now older and they have come back. 9 779 So I think what you are doing is okay 10 because we do come back. It's like people going to 11 church. You know, you weave and you come back. It's 12 okay. You kind of get through that funny, muddly part. 13 780 Regarding local and regional 14 programming, in the Broadcasting Act the objects and 15 the powers in 46.3, it says: 16 "...to originate programs, 17 secure programs from within or 18 outside Canada by purchase, 19 exchange..." (As read) 20 781 Et cetera, et cetera: 21 "...and make arrangements 22 necessary for their 23 transmission." (As read) 24 782 That is not happening. We have had 25 two premiers and another one to come up in April and StenoTran 158 1 CBC, I think with the lack of funds, is not able to be 2 there. That is really sad because they were always 3 there when something new was going to happen, and I'm 4 talking mostly about music for that point, so it's 5 really sad. 6 783 The other thing is that I'm not much 7 of a TV watcher and I don't watch at supper time 8 because I'm busy making supper, but the 11:30 regional 9 news is so short and I'm getting older and 11:30 is 10 really getting late. So why don't we have Peter on at 11 10:00, and he gets it all just nice and then put our 12 regional on? Then if I want to go to bed or if I want 13 to listen to Peter again, it's okay. That's my little 14 thing. 15 784 We do have a wonderful broadcasting 16 centre. We have facilities. We did have staff. Let's 17 use it. It's not being used any more. It's criminal. 18 785 As far as the foreign bureaus, again 19 referring back to the Broadcasting Act, it says: 20 "...collect news relating to 21 current events in any part of 22 the world and establish and 23 subscribe to new agencies." 24 (As read) 25 786 Do not cut the foreign bureaus. StenoTran 159 1 Those are Canadian people, for the most part, talking 2 to Canadians. I don't want an American telling me, 3 otherwise I would have cable. I do not have cable. 4 787 CBC is like a community. It's kind 5 of funny when you talk to someone and you say, "Did you 6 hear Sheila this morning? Did you hear Colin? Did you 7 here whoever." Yes. But you don't hear them talking 8 about other radio stations, whatever else is on those 9 other ones. We have friends in Calgary and we are 10 talking back and forth, "Hey, did you hear such and 11 such on the radio" or "Did you see something on TV?" 12 788 It kind of blows your mind. We think 13 of it as our guys here, but it is all of Canada. And 14 we do talk to each other, but I think we have to talk 15 more. 16 789 A point. I don't know what the 17 weather is in Yellowknife. They never tell us. Our 18 national weather and it says Victoria, Vancouver, da, 19 da, da, da, da, never Yellowknife, Whitehorse. They 20 are part of Canada, too. I would like that on. 21 790 I think having it being on the 22 Internet is great. I can communicate to the media 23 people. I like doing that. It's quick and instead of 24 writing a letter and doing this scary stuff I can just 25 sit there and do it. StenoTran 160 1 791 As far as CBC, it creates so many 2 spin-offs that I don't think people really realize. 3 You are hearing about books, you are hearing about 4 music, you are hearing about art, you are hearing about 5 things that are going on in your community. People go 6 out and buy those books and buy those magazines and buy 7 that music and buy that CD. I just ordered it, too, 8 this week. 9 792 I have taken flute lessons because of 10 CBC. I have listened to the music and I go, "I just 11 love this. I have to learn this." So we are employing 12 people outside the periphery of CBC, so that those of 13 us who hear are employing other people. I don't know 14 if that's ever considered, but our voice does go out. 15 793 I have one comment to make and I 16 would urge you, the Commission, when you report to 17 Parliament, to reaffirm the mandate of the CBC and ask 18 them to please provide the necessary resources to 19 sustain the CBC on a stable, multi-year basis. They 20 can't go from day to day, month to month, year to year. 21 It's just ridiculous. There is no continuity and it's 22 very sad. 23 794 Thank you. 24 795 MR. ANDERSON: One last comment. 25 Mr. Lau had made the point that the CBC is a public StenoTran 161 1 trust and as a consequence another comment had been 2 made that it was a corporation like any other 3 corporation. The labels that the politicians or people 4 give the CBC I think tend to get in the way of 5 recognizing that the CBC is in obligatory response. 6 Politically, people have an obligatory response to a 7 national public radio system or media system, and I 8 think that has to be reinforced. 9 796 Thank you very much. 10 797 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 11 Mr. and Mrs. Anderson. 12 798 Mr. Secretary. 13 799 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 14 1653 15 800 Olive Lukey, please. 16 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 17 801 MS LUKEY: Madam Chair, 18 Commissioners, ladies and gentlemen. 19 802 Olive Lukey speaking for herself, and 20 many people before me have spoken much more delicately 21 about what I feel. I have one thing to say and that's 22 all. 23 803 We talk about telling Canadians who 24 we are. Remember the people who travel through our 25 country on the roads listening to CBC. They also know StenoTran 162 1 who we are, and I'm proud of what we are saying. 2 804 Thank you. 3 805 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 4 Ms Lukey. 5 806 Mr. Secretary. 6 807 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 7 1655 8 808 John O'Donaghue, please. 9 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 10 809 MR. O'DONAGHUE: Pardon? 11 810 MR. LAHAY: Can you turn your 12 microphone on, please. Speak into your microphone. 13 811 Thank you. 14 812 MR. O'DONAGHUE: Should I shut it 15 off? 16 813 MR. LAHAY: No, because we have no 17 way of transcribing it if you do that. 18 814 MR. O'DONAGHUE: Okay. 19 815 MR. LAHAY: Thank you. 20 816 MR. O'DONAGHUE: (Foreign 21 language/Langue étrangère). That's welcome to 22 Saskatchewan. 23 817 Next Wednesday half the world will be 24 celebrating St. Patrick's Day. It is my fervent wish 25 that the CBC takes no part in those celebrations. I StenoTran 163 1 ask that because of the unhappy experience we had last 2 year when the leading male star of the Morning Show 3 came out with three hours of infantile nonsense, 4 offensive nonsense. It's a unique occasion. 5 818 It is also a unique location. I'm 6 not referring to Saskatchewan itself but to the 7 electronic ether overhead. It's really hilarious when 8 you think of the following. 9 819 The CBC can pour forth all sorts of 10 vulgarities and four-letter words, and as recently as 11 last Sunday, but an unfortunate, maybe foul-mouthed but 12 good natured, truck driver was charged recently and 13 faced imprisonment and a fine of up to $500 for using 14 the "f" word in the hope of warning his colleagues 15 about certain very dangerous stretches of the highway 16 down near Broadview. Anyway, that's just vulgarity. 17 820 But what I would like to talk about 18 is blasphemy. I have heard the words "community" and 19 "service" and "satisfaction", satisfying people. But 20 here is an extract from a broadcast on December 21 the 23rd, 1995, two days before the Christian feast of 22 Christmas. This allegedly comic blasphemous skit on 23 the nativity referred to our revered mother of God 24 as -- I won't repeat it. It starts with a "v" -- 25 "v" challenged. Kindness might prompt me to suggest StenoTran 164 1 that the people in CBC responsible for that were all 2 intellectually challenged. 3 821 Anyway, I immediately lodged a 4 protest with CBC and asked for the name of the 5 offending comic. At the same time, I wrote to CRTC, 6 informing them and asking for their help. Three years 7 of voluminous contribution of correspondence produced 8 nothing, nothing as to the identity of this hilarious 9 comic. 10 822 Fortunately -- well, sadly, it was a 11 little sad -- recently I got an anonymous call from an 12 employee of CRTC and this employee expressed great 13 sympathy with me and sympathized with the way my 14 request had been handled. After three years of 15 refusal, the CRTC telling me "We haven't got the 16 information", and the CBC saying "It's not your 17 business. We have lost the file", et cetera, et 18 cetera, this employee said, "Well, if you are still 19 interested in knowing the name of the guy, his name is 20 Broadbose(ph), David Broadbose." 21 823 Now, it is ridiculous that a member 22 of the public who wishes to object to a particular 23 program should be denied that information for as long 24 as three years -- well, two. 25 824 On January the 8th, 1997, CBC radio's StenoTran 165 1 Morning Edition in Regina broadcast another comic skit 2 on the sacraments of reconciliation and holy communion, 3 sacraments dear to the heart of many, many, many 4 Christians, many Christians. Even crude schoolboys, 5 which you come across occasionally, wouldn't, in days 6 gone by, have dreamt of any such thing. 7 825 Here is the quote: 8 "Get in line in that 9 processional. Step into that 10 small confessional. Dare the 11 guy who's got religion to tell 12 you if your sin's original. If 13 it's not, try playing it safer. 14 Drink the wine and chew the 15 wafer. Two, four, six, eight, 16 time to trans-substantiate." 17 (As read) 18 826 What ignoramus came along with that 19 broadcast? What ignoramus or ignorama allowed this to 20 come out over the air when trans-substantiation is the 21 very essence of some religions? 22 827 I don't know how many -- what 23 population of Canada can be regarded as Christians. We 24 cannot get the information from Statistics Canada. 25 Apparently, they are too busy counting up the number of StenoTran 166 1 micrograms of microtrash the Regina householders and 2 other householders in 27 other cities throw out every 3 year or every week or every day. But it is a big 4 majority. CBC has offended a lot of people. A 5 majority of Canadians have been offended by some of 6 these broadcasts. 7 828 In conclusion -- beautiful words -- 8 in conclusion, a particularly annoying -- I'm speaking 9 personally -- a particularly annoying factor in all 10 this is that Christians and Christians alone appear to 11 be the subject of all this ridicule. You won't hear 12 about the deities or the divinities of any other 13 religion, at least I have not heard it. What is the 14 explanation? Is it that the people in CBC who are 15 responsible for these broadcasts are nervous of some 16 sort of personal, physical retribution? 17 829 If I may put it this way: I think 18 so. I believe that they would be scared shitless to 19 come out with such criticism about any other religion. 20 I apologize for the crude expression I used there, but 21 obviously I have been listening to the CBC too much. 22 830 Thank you very much. 23 831 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 24 Mr. O'Donaghue. 25 832 Mr. Secretary. StenoTran 167 1 833 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 2 1705 3 834 Tasha Hubbard, please. 4 --- Off microphone / Sans microphone 5 835 MR. LAHAY: I'm sorry, would you turn 6 on your microphone please, Ms Hubbard. 7 836 MS HUBBARD: I'm sorry. 8 837 MR. LAHAY: Thank you. 9 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 10 838 MS HUBBARD: I'm speaking on behalf 11 of Doug Cuthand(ph) and myself from Blue Hill 12 Productions. Basically a lot of this is something that 13 Doug and I have come up with, and then I have a little 14 bit of my own to add. 15 839 We at Blue Hill Productions would 16 like to express our support for public broadcasting and 17 the important role the CBC has played in Canada over 18 the years. 19 840 As Canadians, we have become more 20 informed and better educated because we have had the 21 benefit of a national broadcaster with a public 22 mandate. 23 841 This month we are witnessing the 24 birth of another public broadcaster, the Aboriginal 25 Peoples Television Network or APTN. This new network StenoTran 168 1 will be carried on basic cable and will be a new voice 2 for aboriginal people. 3 842 While we look forward to our own 4 channel, we know that CBC will remain the choice of 5 many viewers and continue to hold its audience share. 6 We therefore caution the CBC that they have an 7 important mandate to reflect the regions and people of 8 this country. Just because we now have the APTN, this 9 fact does not diminish the importance of CBC. In fact, 10 CBC must increase its programming to aboriginal people. 11 843 In Saskatchewan we are 15 per cent of 12 the current population and growing quickly. We are a 13 young population with over half of our people under the 14 age of 18. This fact indicates that Saskatchewan is 15 moving into a period of rapid change, and with the 16 possibility of increased racial tension now, more than 17 any time in our history, we need a strong public 18 broadcaster to fairly present the issues and educate 19 the public. 20 844 Currently, there is only one regional 21 television news magazine on aboriginal issues that is 22 produced in Saskatchewan. This is Indigenous Circle 23 produced by the CTV network. This program has been 24 around for five years and is currently seen by about 25 50,000 viewers weekly. This may not seem like much to StenoTran 169 1 regions such as Ontario, but in a small market like 2 Saskatchewan it is significant. We recommend that the 3 CBC proceed to establish a regional program that meets 4 the needs of Saskatchewan people. 5 845 This past year the CBC has sat on a 6 proposal to produce a national aboriginal news magazine 7 called All My Relations. A group of aboriginal 8 producers in Vancouver came up with the idea and some 9 pilot episodes were produced a year ago. Today -- now, 10 this is as of a few days ago -- today the producers are 11 still waiting for approval to proceed with the 12 excellent series and to date no answer has been 13 received, although I'm hearing rumours that that might 14 have changed. 15 846 The aboriginal staff at CBC here in 16 Saskatchewan have suffered the worst at the hands of 17 the budget cuts. Currently, there are three aboriginal 18 staff members at the CBC in Saskatchewan. With a 19 regional staff of about 200, we should have at least 20 30 aboriginal staff members if we are to achieve 21 parity. We realize that budget cutbacks have made this 22 difficult, but we do have many young people graduating 23 from journalism school, audiovisual programs and other 24 related courses and at a time when we need to play a 25 greater role we have been left on the sidelines. StenoTran 170 1 847 Blue Hill Productions was very 2 fortunate this summer to be one of the producers of the 3 CBC miniseries Big Bear, and this ground-breaking 4 series was crewed by members of Canada's three founding 5 entities: First Nation, Francophone, Anglophone. The 6 result, in the words of one CBC employee, was magic on 7 the prairie, and Big Bear stands as an example of what 8 can be achieved when people work together and respect 9 each other and their craft. 10 848 We are witnessing the rapid growth of 11 aboriginal cultural industries. Big Bear was directed, 12 produced, crewed and cast with a high percentage of 13 aboriginal people. This goes to show we do have talent 14 and we do have the stories to tell. 15 849 This is where I'm breaking off a 16 little bit. As an expiring young documentary 17 filmmaker, I do have the CBC to thank. I did begin my 18 career with Big Bear and it was quite rewarding to see 19 the results of many, many, many hours of hard work on 20 the screen. But it was also very gratifying to see it 21 on CBC, which is basically the network I grew up with 22 as a young farm kid growing up in southern 23 Saskatchewan. But Big Bear also afforded me the 24 opportunity to hear about my history. I was adopted 25 out at the age of three months and grew up in a StenoTran 171 1 non-native community. Big Bear marked my journey back 2 and my exploration into my ancestries and my history 3 and my family. 4 850 My birth father is from Thunderchild 5 First Nation, and actually at my age was working for 6 the CBC in radio as co-host of Our Native Land with 7 Bernaldo Weiler(ph). He was I think at the time the 8 only broadcaster actually speaking Cree and that was 9 back in the seventies, which was a decade that a lot of 10 efforts were put into the rejuvenation of the Cree 11 language. I'm happy to say, although I don't speak it, 12 there is a new generation that's coming along that do. 13 851 I live in Saskatoon and I'm actually 14 in Regina this week to work for the National Aboriginal 15 Achievement Awards, which is happening tomorrow night, 16 and actually they are going to be wondering where I am. 17 I said I would only be gone an hour and I have been 18 gone for two and a half, but that's okay. 19 852 This is the sixth annual awards 20 happening and the past five shows have been broadcast 21 on CBC. I want to I guess emphasize the impact that 22 these awards have on our community. There was actually 23 an article in the Globe and Mail today, the headline 24 was "Where Have All the Native Pop Stars Gone?" and the 25 reporter criticized the awards because the recipients StenoTran 172 1 did not have recognition nationally, which in my 2 opinion completely misses the point of the awards in 3 that this is an opportunity to bring attention to some 4 very special people out there, to both the aboriginal 5 community and non-aboriginal community. This I guess 6 only happens when things like the awards are actually 7 broadcast on CBC. 8 853 Often it seems as though positive 9 images in the media are few and far between of 10 aboriginal people, and broadcasts that showcase this, 11 such as the awards, have an amazing impact. I know 12 this firsthand by watching the kids that are involved 13 with the awards and what it means to them to be 14 involved with something like that. I have 13 brothers 15 and sisters and I know they are going to be at home 16 watching those awards when they are hopefully broadcast 17 in April. 18 854 That's my part. I will go back to 19 our joint statement. 20 855 We do find it disturbing that there 21 is no new aboriginal drama being produced for CBC 22 television. North of 60 and The Reds provided a look 23 at First Nations' people and their communities. Now 24 they are off the air and basically it seems as though a 25 part of our national character is missing. StenoTran 173 1 856 As First Nations, we need to 2 communicate with all the people that are living in 3 Saskatchewan and Canada. Racism and intolerance thrive 4 in a climate of misunderstanding and fear of the 5 unknown. The CBC has an important role as a national 6 public broadcaster to work to help create a climate of 7 understanding between people. 8 857 Saskatchewan is unique in Canada and 9 we have a long history of public endeavour. We have a 10 history of overcoming adversity as well. We also have 11 the largest percentage of aboriginal people in the 12 country. As a province, it's necessary that we work 13 together to meet the needs of a changing society, and 14 we do want the CBC with us while we do that. 15 858 Thank you very much. 16 --- Applause / Applaudissements 17 859 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 18 Ms Hubbard. 19 860 Could you just turn off the 20 microphone. 21 861 MS HUBBARD: Yes. 22 862 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary. 23 863 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 24 1715 25 864 Don Archbold, please. StenoTran 174 1 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 2 865 MR. ARCHBOLD: Good afternoon. A 3 late afternoon. Not much of a crowd here now. 4 866 I'll just introduce myself. I'm the 5 General Manager of Sask Film, which is the provincial 6 funding agency that's charged with the responsibility 7 of investing in projects and developing projects, and 8 CBC is one of the entities that we deal with. 9 867 I have already dropped off a prepared 10 statement and I'm just going to speak to that and try 11 and keep my comments as brief as I can. 12 868 I have outlined in the statement a 13 few concerns that we do have about the CBC. 14 869 I'm in somewhat a unique situation. 15 Not only am I currently running a funding agency but I 16 started off in this business as a composer. I wrote 17 music for CBC radio dramas and TV and jazz Radio-Canada 18 programs, and then I evolved into a writer/producer/ 19 director and had a national TV series that ran on CBC, 20 so I have had a number of experiences with them on many 21 different levels, some fantastic and some agonizing. 22 870 I would like to say that currently in 23 Saskatchewan the amount of indigenous production that's 24 taking place, there are only two other provinces in the 25 country that are doing more than we are and that is StenoTran 175 1 Quebec and Ontario. If the Americans were to pull up 2 ranks and head south, our industry is well positioned 3 to continue on. We did over $50 million worth of 4 business last year in this province in the film and 5 television industry and the majority of that is and was 6 with indigenous projects. 7 871 We only had what would be considered 8 two service projects out of that which was a small 9 amount of that total, which says a great deal about the 10 producers in this particular province who are extremely 11 active. You will be hearing from them later and I'm 12 sure they will make their own comments in regards to 13 their particular feelings about the CBC. 14 872 We have a very active community. We 15 have a vital community. We have incredibly talented 16 writers. The Governor General's Award has been won 17 twice in the last four years by Saskatchewan writers. 18 Yet, the CBC and Saskatchewan is managed by a part-time 19 regional director who, as talented and as gifted as she 20 is, has been charged with I think an impossible task of 21 trying to run an organization, not just a facility but 22 meeting with the demands and needs of the production 23 communities of two very vital provinces, Manitoba and 24 Saskatchewan, who have both seen enormous increases in 25 their production levels in the last few years, which StenoTran 176 1 leads to we have an individual who shows up for two 2 days a week. It's very difficult for our producers to 3 attach themselves to meetings with that individual 4 because of all the other demands. 5 873 Now, that being said, that individual 6 has the right to look at and okay certain types of 7 documentary projects, but when it comes to larger 8 budget dramatic series or movies of the week, there is 9 nobody, no broadcaster, CTV, CanWest Global or CBC, who 10 has any representative in the province that can 11 actually sit down, work with me through the development 12 stages on a project and get it to the point of 13 production and make a decision to proceed with it. 14 874 After we work through the development 15 of a project, it gets shipped off to somebody in 16 Toronto, we don't even know who it is or have been 17 given any indication of who that individual might be, 18 and our producers have an incredibly difficult time in 19 getting the licensing fees that our counterparts in 20 Toronto and Montreal, who are right at the door have 21 much easier access. 22 875 That being said, the case used to be 23 the -- you know, there isn't the quality of production, 24 the quality of producers, the quality of people out 25 there to do things on a national broadcast standard. StenoTran 177 1 That may have been true five, six years ago. 2 876 Two weeks ago a Saskatchewan-produced 3 movie, which is a wonderful family movie called Summer 4 of the Monkeys was the number one video rental in the 5 United States. This week it's number four. The CBC 6 was not involved, could have been involved, but they 7 weren't. 8 877 There are other projects. We 9 currently have a series that we developed that is 10 running on YTV that the CBC could have been involved 11 in, but chose not to. It's one of their top shows. 12 It's just been sold to Discovery in the United States. 13 It has been picked up by Disney in Europe. These are 14 things that we have produced and created and developed 15 indigenously and without any CBC involvement. They are 16 being accepted on a world scale and yet our producers 17 have an impossible time trying to get the ear of 18 anybody at CBC in Toronto. It's a very frustrating 19 situation and we would certainly like to see and 20 encourage that if they are to revisit part of their 21 mandate. 22 878 Certainly everyone has talked about 23 the necessity of strengthening a regional presence. 24 The fact is that we would love to see that. We would 25 love to have somebody assigned to the province who can StenoTran 178 1 actually make decisions, who we can go to and say, "We 2 have this great project here. Can you give us a 3 licensing fee", and they will understand us and know 4 where we are coming from and have some history of the 5 producer with the deadlines that are set for them to 6 deal with the CTF. 7 879 We have been having great luck with 8 some of the other broadcasters, but very little luck 9 with the CBC, even though two of the CBC's premier 10 series that will run this year, Big Bear which has 11 already run and Revenge of the Land, were shot here. 12 The principal production companies were both from 13 Montreal. Our producers could not attach themselves to 14 the projects to get them made without a co-producing 15 partner from Montreal. We have the people that are 16 quite capable of doing it, but I guess there are still 17 factions that believe we can't. 18 880 In doing this, and in making these 19 decisions, obviously we have a vital community that's 20 doing lots, there is going to be even more production 21 this year. We want to have the CBC involved. They are 22 involved in documentary production and are a welcome 23 partner and we want to work with them and have a great 24 relationship with them. We just hope that they can 25 reorganize themselves in such a fashion as to address StenoTran 179 1 the needs of each region, not just Saskatchewan, but I 2 know Manitoba has the same problem, Alberta has the 3 same problem, B.C. has the same problem. 4 881 Basically, the only people that don't 5 have the problems that we do are the Toronto-based 6 producers and the Montreal-based producers. So I'm 7 sure as you travel across Canada you will hear a lot of 8 the same thing. 9 882 Just in closing, I would like to 10 thank you for the opportunity -- to sit here after a 11 long day so far and a much longer one yet to come -- to 12 express ourselves and make our views known. 13 883 We are certainly in support of the 14 CBC. We want to see it continue. They have been 15 handed, as you have heard from the varying points of 16 view from many people here, an incredible task of 17 trying to please everyone. It's something that is 18 impossible, as we all know, but they have been trying 19 many different things and hopefully they can focus in 20 on something that will be much more effective than what 21 we currently have. We certainly welcome them back in a 22 much stronger way to Saskatchewan. 23 884 Thank you very much. 24 885 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 25 Mr. Archbold. StenoTran 180 1 886 Mr. Secretary. 2 887 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 3 1721 4 888 Marge Robinson, please. 5 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 6 889 MS ROBINSON: Hello. I realized I 7 could come here when I heard Madam Chairperson being 8 interviewed this morning, so I quickly dressed and I 9 came this afternoon. 10 890 I had memories -- everybody's sort of 11 nostalgia, and of course growing up everybody remembers 12 Hockey Night in Canada, Lux Radio Theatre, and as a 13 child in World War II, I remember the grave faces of my 14 parents and grandparents as they listened to the nine 15 o'clock news. Though we didn't understand all the 16 aspects of the war, the wins and the losses, we 17 certainly understood that this was a matter of life and 18 death. 19 891 I'm here representing myself and my 20 family. I'm employed in the field of social work, but 21 I'm not coming in that aspect. I am coming here to 22 express my concerns on the dark side of the CBC and I'm 23 going to speak just from my personal experience. 24 892 I'm concerned about the lack of 25 respect and the erosion of ethical and broadcasting StenoTran 181 1 standards. I feel that many times the CBC tramples on 2 my civil rights and tramples on my values and beliefs 3 as a Canadian citizen. 4 893 I have only chosen in this short time 5 two examples. One is a thing that was previously 6 mentioned by another presenter. 7 894 In January of 1997 on the Sheila 8 Cole's Show by request by some caller a song was 9 presented called the Vatican Rag. Now, everybody 10 talked about Canadian content and Canadian music, but 11 this is an American who sings this, full of bias and 12 bigotry against Catholics. I have included a copy of 13 that song. But the gist of the song was that -- it was 14 mockery of everything Catholics believe: rosaries, 15 prayer, our eucharist, our reconciliation, the sign of 16 the cross. I couldn't believe it was the CBC. This 17 was apparently enjoyed by the host of the show. 18 895 I phoned in a concern to the producer 19 and it just was dismissed as being irrelevant. I did 20 write a letter, several letters, and I have in front of 21 me a copy of one of the letters that I received from 22 one of the executives of the CBC in Regina complaining 23 about it. One of the sentences is: 24 "Personally, I have several 25 friends and acquaintances who StenoTran 182 1 find this piece very amusing. 2 Obviously, there are differences 3 in opinion." (As read) 4 896 It was further explained that 5 Mark Russell in the United States frequently satires 6 his robide(ph) satire on these and other communities. 7 Now, I'm not an American citizen. I'm a Canadian 8 citizen. If I was an American I could protest to the 9 sponsor and I could say "I'm not buying your product 10 any more" and it would give me some idea of power. 11 897 I had heard many people say that the 12 CBC represents the best in Canadian society and it 13 unites the country. When I had brought forth this idea 14 that I always had about the CBC, the answer I have in 15 this letter, it says: 16 "The CBC does not purport to 17 represent the best in Canadian 18 society, nor is it our mandate 19 to unite all Canadians. It is 20 our mandate, in part, to reflect 21 the various aspects of Canadian 22 society and in doing so 23 contribute to a more and 24 complete and better 25 understanding of Canada by StenoTran 183 1 Canadians." (As read) 2 898 I think CBC has to not only talk the 3 talk but to walk the walk. 4 899 The other example is from the 5 television and the program that I find that myself, my 6 friends and a lot of the community that I belong to 7 find offensive is the showing of Father Ted. Now, this 8 was not a Canadian -- I mean, we are talking about 9 Canadian content. This is a program that was imported 10 from the British Isles and it depicts Catholic clergy, 11 Catholic church services in a very degrading and vulgar 12 way. 13 900 What is the purpose of it? Like, 14 what is the problem or what is the purpose of putting 15 these programs on? I don't understand it. 16 901 Now, the CBC ombudsman quickly ducked 17 behind that the song was from Vatican II, it was an 18 expression of somebody's response from Vatican II, and 19 also that if I found that offensive I could have turned 20 the radio off or I can turn the TV off. You know, I 21 find that is, for somebody who is to represent the 22 listener, a very shallow answer. 23 902 Now, there are many nice things about 24 CBC. There are many good things. 25 903 What recommendations do I have? I StenoTran 184 1 would say that perhaps the broadcasting, the 2 broadcasters, the CBC, could train, could educate, 3 could be accountable for what they put on which offends 4 Canadians, which offends a large portion of the 5 community I represent in spirit. Are we not entitled 6 to receive respect or to not have our civil liberties 7 trampled on? All I ask is that CBC be more accountable 8 to the way they portray my religion to the rest of 9 Canada, and to be more accountable and to be more 10 sensitive and to have more respect for their own 11 citizens. 12 904 I'm a taxpayer and in some ways I 13 resent supporting somebody who insults me and somebody 14 who promotes bigotry. I'm forced to support that and I 15 have no recourse. If I do make a complaint to CRTC, I 16 get a polite letter to say, "Yes, we have considered 17 it. Your letter will be put on file." 18 905 So these are my concerns. I know 19 that any time you spread ignorance it does not benefit 20 any of us. These are my concerns and I'm glad I had 21 the opportunity to express them. 22 906 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 23 Ms Robinson. 24 --- Applause / Applaudissements 25 907 THE CHAIRPERSON: I believe that StenoTran 185 1 concludes the presenters for this afternoon. 2 908 I'm told that CBC of course is 3 entitled to their rebuttal and I'm told that they don't 4 require any time to prepare. Is that correct? 5 --- Off microphone / Sans microphone 6 909 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm afraid I don't 7 know you, so if you could just give your name, please. 8 1730 9 910 Thank you. 10 REPLY / RÉPLIQUE 11 911 MR. GERALD: Thank you, 12 Commissioner Cram and Commissioner Wylie. 13 912 My name is Bill Gerald. I'm the 14 Regional Director of Radio for CBC Saskatchewan. 15 913 Also here with me is René Fontaine 16 who is the Director of French radio for Saskatchewan, 17 and Lionel Bonneville who is the Director of French 18 television in the province. He is also representing 19 Jane Chalmers who is the Director of English television 20 who unfortunately cannot be here because of some 21 pressing family matters. 22 914 In addition, our two Vice-Presidents 23 on the English side, Alex Frame for radio and Harold 24 Redekopp for television, were here today. They have 25 now returned to Toronto for other business. StenoTran 186 1 915 Our role here has been to listen 2 because the views, the opinions of the citizens of 3 Saskatchewan, are indeed very important to us. 4 916 Several presenters this afternoon 5 have referred to Saskatchewan as being a province that 6 defines and reflects what Canada is all about, and we 7 certainly don't disagree with that. We hope indeed 8 that they will find that CBC radio and television 9 services will continue to support that sense of unique 10 Canadian culture in the future. 11 917 We have been taking notes through the 12 course of the afternoon and we will be following up on 13 them. In fact, where possible, we intend to respond 14 directly to each individual who has taken the time and 15 effort to make a presentation and indeed I guess they 16 have all left the room now, but indeed -- 17 --- Off microphone / Sans microphone 18 918 MR. GERALD: Oh, yes. Thank you. 19 919 And our heartfelt thanks goes out to 20 all those individuals for their suggestions throughout 21 the afternoon, their constructive criticism and indeed 22 their support of public broadcasting. 23 920 Most of all, we thank them for their 24 interest and concern for the CBC and what it means to 25 them as Canadians. We heard a lot of people speaking StenoTran 187 1 from the heart. They spoke with conviction and 2 passion. There was thoughtful reflection. We 3 certainly appreciate that. 4 921 Many of the issues raised here today 5 are being addressed to the CBC's licence renewal 6 process. There are issues. I will just enumerate a 7 few including: local and international news coverage; 8 the level of production in the regions; clearly, the 9 reflection of Saskatchewan, and for that matter, other 10 regions of the country; the reflection of aboriginal 11 stories particularly, an issue that is of obvious 12 importance in context here in this province; 13 programming for different age groups; and, interactive 14 programming. We have heard quite a bit today and quite 15 a bit of enthusiasm for embracing new media, the 16 Internet. Another theme that has been struck is the 17 whole notion of reaching out and engaging various 18 organizations and individuals in partnerships. 19 922 Those are obviously matters of 20 importance to those people, as they are to us. We will 21 be using the licence renewal process to confirm our 22 continuing commitment to local and foreign issues, to 23 the maintenance of regional radio programming 24 throughout the day for fair, independent and 25 investigated journalism and our commitment to Canadian StenoTran 188 1 talent and indeed the wealth of Saskatchewan talent on 2 the music and dramatic side and spoken word through 3 independent producers in Saskatchewan, artists here. 4 923 CBC has made significant efforts to 5 make itself more accessible and accountable to the 6 people of Canada in recent years through regular public 7 accountability forums, one which was held in Regina 8 last November. There was a recent phone-in on the 9 Saskatchewan Noon Edition with the President of the 10 CBC, and of course there have been the annual on-air 11 reviews. 12 924 In January, you may recall that so 13 many Canadians called in to participate in the 14 television open-line program with CBC leaders that we 15 extended that program by a full hour in order to 16 accommodate all the callers. 17 925 So we intend to continue and increase 18 in fact the efforts in public accountability in the 19 future because several presenters have made clear today 20 our listeners and viewers want a say in the future of 21 their CBC, including this person that is calling my 22 cell phone at the moment. 23 926 So, just in closing, Commissioners, I 24 would just like to say again, thanks for the 25 opportunity to hear directly from Canadians and what StenoTran 189 1 they think about CBC English and French radio and 2 television services. We are determined to do 3 everything we can to earn and deserve the support of 4 the citizens of Saskatchewan in the future. We are 5 also committed to best address the concerns which have 6 been raised here today. 7 927 So on behalf of my colleagues here, 8 thank you very much for this opportunity. 9 928 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 10 Mr. Gerald. 11 929 MR. GERALD: Thank you. 12 930 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will be 13 reconvening on or about 6:00 p.m. tonight. 14 --- Recess at 1736 / Suspension à 1736 15 --- Upon resuming at 1814 / Reprise à 1814 16 931 THE CHAIRPERSON: Hello. We will be 17 reconvening. 18 932 Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, 19 and welcome to this public consultation on the CBC. 20 933 Bonsoir, mesdames et messieurs. 21 Bienvenue à cette consultation publique. 22 934 My name is Barbara Cram and I am a 23 Commissioner on the CRTC. I am a Regional Commissioner 24 responsible for Manitoba and Saskatchewan. 25 935 To my left is Andrée Wylie. She is StenoTran 190 1 the CRTC's Vice-Chair of Broadcasting. 2 936 We are here to gather your views and 3 comments on CBC radio and television. 4 937 In your opinion, how should the 5 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation fulfil its role in 6 the coming years? 7 938 The CBC is a national public service, 8 broadcasting in English as well as in French. It plays 9 an important role in the Canadian broadcasting system. 10 Today, many elements are constantly being added to the 11 broadcasting system as well as technologies 12 multiplying, converging, opening up new horizons and 13 increasingly offering new services. In this context, 14 we want to know what your needs and expectations as 15 viewers and listeners of the CBC are. 16 939 Given that, it is important that the 17 Commission hears what you have to say. We must not 18 lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public 19 organization that serves Canadian citizens. In this 20 capacity, we are responsible to you. This is why my 21 fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to come 22 and meet with you and to discuss these issues and why 23 we are holding this series of regional consultations, 24 from one end of the country to the other, in 25 11 Canadian cities from March 9th to 18th. StenoTran 191 1 940 Ces consultations vous donnent 2 l'occasion de nous faire part de votre opinion sur le 3 rôle de Radio-Canada, le genre d'émissions qu'elle vous 4 propose et l'orientation qu'elle devrait se donner à la 5 veille du nouveau millénaire aussi bien à l'échelle 6 nationale qu'aux échelles régionale et locale. Ces 7 consultations se font dans l'esprit d'établir avec vous 8 un dialogue ouvert et d'être à l'écoute de vos 9 préoccupations. Tous vos commentaires feront partie du 10 dossier public. Il sera lui-même ajouté à celui de 11 l'audience public qui s'ouvrira à Hull le 25 mai 12 prochain. 13 941 At the upcoming hearing in Hull on 14 May 25, the Commission will examine the CBC's 15 application for the renewal of its licences including 16 radio, television and its specialty services, Newsworld 17 and Réseau de l'information. You can also take part in 18 that public hearing by sending your written comments to 19 the CRTC. If you wish to do so, please remember to 20 refer to the specific licence renewals being examined 21 when you file your comments. 22 942 Now I would like to come back to 23 today. Please allow me to introduce the CRTC staff who 24 will be assisting us today: Peter McCallum, to my left 25 is our legal counsel; Rod Lahay, to my right, is from StenoTran 192 1 our Broadcasting Planning Services; at the door you met 2 Gary Krushen, the Director of our Winnipeg Regional 3 Office. Please feel free to call on them with any 4 questions you may have about the process today or any 5 other matter. 6 943 So that you will all have the 7 opportunity to speak, we ask that you please limit your 8 presentation to 10 minutes. As these consultations are 9 a forum designed especially for you and we want to 10 listen to as many participants as possible, we will not 11 ask any questions unless we need clarification. 12 944 At the end of the session, 13 representatives from the local CBC stations will have a 14 chance to offer their views as they are naturally very 15 interested by the issues we are discussing here today. 16 945 Before we start, I would ask 17 Mr. Lahay, who will be the Secretary of our session, to 18 go over some of the housekeeping matters regarding the 19 conduct of this consultation. Avant de vous céder le 20 micro, je demanderais au secrétaire de vous indiquer la 21 marche à suivre. 22 946 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, 23 Commissioner Cram. 24 947 Just a few items to bring to your 25 attention. We do have translation services over here. StenoTran 193 1 English on Channel 1, French on Channel 2, and they ask 2 that you do provide a driver's licence or a major 3 credit card which would be returned to you at the end 4 of the evening for the listening device. 5 948 We will be conducting breaks 6 throughout this evening's presentations and we will 7 announce them at that time. 8 949 There is a comment sheet on the 9 outside desk when you came into the room. We would 10 appreciate any comments you might have on the process 11 or any questions that you might have or suggestions or 12 improvements. 13 950 Also, for those people who have not 14 spoken before, the microphone does have a white button 15 that has to be pushed before you can talk. We ask that 16 you do make sure you are on mike because that's the 17 only way the translation services will have to keep an 18 official record of our proceedings tonight. 19 951 Once again I reiterate the time frame 20 for 10 minutes please. If you could stay with that, we 21 have 25 presenters tonight, so we can carry on and have 22 a chance to listen to everybody. 23 952 Thank you very much. 24 953 I would like to call, in groups, the 25 first 10 presenters tonight, if you wouldn't mind StenoTran 194 1 coming forward here as I call your name, and we will 2 take you in that order for 10 minutes per person. 3 Thank you. 4 954 Brenda Baker or Bruce Rice; 5 John W. Haskey; Ron Clark; Dan Cameron; Lucy Eley; 6 Susie Matthews; Kevin DeWalt; Robert Waldegger; and, 7 Raymond Morin. If you wouldn't mind coming forward, 8 having a place, sitting down at particularly a 9 microphone. 10 1820 11 955 We will start with either 12 Brenda Baker and/or Bruce Rice. When you are ready. 13 956 Thank you. 14 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 15 957 MS BAKER: Good evening. As you 16 heard, my name is Brenda Baker and I'm a writer and 17 performer from Saskatoon. 18 958 I have been a fan of CBC radio and TV 19 for about 20 years now and from 1985 to 1990 I worked 20 in Regina for CBC Radio Saskatchewan as a fill-in host 21 and a part-time arts journalist. 22 959 I chose to leave the corp to pursue 23 my artistic interests, but I remain passionate about 24 the CBC and its critical, unique role within our 25 democracy. StenoTran 195 1 960 I would like to thank the CRTC for 2 this opportunity to share just a few of the many 3 thoughts I have had about the CBC in the last couple of 4 years. I hope that if you tour Canada again you will 5 stop in Saskatoon next time where you will find that we 6 have, at this time anyway, totally inadequate service 7 in both radio and television. 8 961 I understand that you are hoping that 9 we will focus on the future, and I'll try to do that, 10 however, I won't go along with any kind of pretence 11 that all is well with the CBC. I believe the 12 government made a huge mistake when they hacked away a 13 third of its allotment and with the current technicians 14 strike and an impending strike by journalists, I'm very 15 worried for the health of public broadcasting in the 16 future. 17 962 I will be making two short 18 presentations. The first will be as the President of 19 the Saskatchewan Writers Guild, a 30-year old 20 organization of about 700 members. The second will be 21 as a citizen who was involved in the CBC Ours to Keep 22 petition campaign in 1997. 23 963 Over the years, many people in the 24 membership of the Saskatchewan Writers Guild have 25 contributed to CBC programming, mostly in radio, but StenoTran 196 1 before the cuts began some of our members were 2 beginning to write for television as well. 3 964 It must be noted that many writers do 4 seem to have more of an affinity with the medium of 5 radio. We have been well served by CBC radio which has 6 aired our poetry, short stories, plays, songs mostly to 7 our neighbours in Saskatchewan, but sometimes, though 8 probably not enough, across the country too. 9 965 Other members have been heard giving 10 thoughtful commentaries or carefully considered script 11 and clip pieces, and many more people who were not 12 members of our guild still employed their writing 13 skills to provide commentary on a wide variety of 14 issues and events. For all this important work, the 15 CBC paid people who knew how to write a respectable 16 fee. 17 966 But things have changed. Today we 18 still have some opportunities to air our creative work 19 on local programs, but probably fewer overall and 20 certainly not with a lot of added production values. 21 Commentaries about various issues of the day are almost 22 never done out of Saskatchewan and I can't tell you the 23 last time I heard a script and clip piece done locally. 24 967 So what's replacing the thoughtful, 25 considered, professional content that writers used to StenoTran 197 1 be paid for? In a word "voice mail". If you think 2 about it, it fulfils the CBC's need to appear diverse 3 and accessible and the beautiful thing is that it is 4 free. 5 968 Whatever did CBC radio do to help 6 fill in the day before voice mail? Well, for one 7 thing, they hired more people with writing skills and 8 interesting ideas. The content of a show was always 9 reviewed by a number of people, scripts were usually 10 carefully vetted, and I believe the job of the writer 11 and the opinion of the writer was highly regarded by 12 the culture that used to thrive at the CBC. Canadian 13 writers played a huge part in building an amazing 14 public radio system that was second to none. 15 969 Now, on CBC Radio One, too much of 16 the day is given over to whatever comes in on the voice 17 mail. Occasionally, the talk back idea is 18 appropriately used and there are some interesting 19 comments. 20 970 As an aside, I would like to mention 21 that Richardson's Roundup, which is hosted by one of 22 the most literate men in Canada, is built on voice mail 23 and repeats from other shows. Bill is one of the 24 greatest minds and best writers on CBC today and I 25 think we are wasting his talent. StenoTran 198 1 971 Despite the efforts of the voice mail 2 editors on a number of CBC programs, often the messages 3 are amusing chitchat or desperate, ill-informed 4 opinions that don't really stay with the listener, not 5 the way a good piece of writing does. 6 972 Picking on voice mail may seem 7 simplistic, but I believe the disproportionate use of 8 it, relative to the contributions of professional 9 writers, indicates a significant and negative change at 10 the CBC. So my message from the Saskatchewan Writers 11 Guild to the CBC regarding its future is simple: bring 12 back more writers and bring back the staff necessary to 13 oversee the production of this increase in quality 14 content. 15 973 In closing this part of my 16 presentation, I would like to share with you a few 17 comments from some of our guild members, and these were 18 collected via e-mail. 19 974 This is from writer Anita Darr(ph) of 20 La Ronge in Northern Saskatchewan: 21 "How can a corporation that 22 professes to be the voice of 23 Canada continue to maintain 24 coverage by cutting back on 25 staff? I'm dissatisfied with StenoTran 199 1 the way CBC radio has reduced 2 its northern programming out of 3 La Range. At one time there was 4 a morning and a noon show 5 produced and broadcast here by a 6 staff of three. As of a year 7 ago, staffing has been reduced 8 to one person who handles 9 production, research, 10 administrative duties, 11 reporting, broadcasting, etc., 12 and there is one show instead of 13 two. This one person has his 14 hands full. There is not nearly 15 enough time to get out in the 16 community and connect with the 17 many other people around the 18 north." (As read) 19 975 The Writers Guild has had a long 20 relationship with Saskatchewan schools and so here is a 21 note from a Saskatoon teacher and children's writer, 22 Judith Benson: 23 "As a teacher and writer, I'm 24 daily emersed in the lives and 25 needs of children from many StenoTran 200 1 walks of life. I value any 2 opportunity for students to be 3 able to visualize the words they 4 hear. CBC radio does this via 5 stories, poetry and commentary, 6 more so for adults than 7 children, but more radio 8 offerings for children is a 9 matter to discuss at another 10 time. My point is that children 11 are growing up with fewer and 12 fewer opportunities to visualize 13 the words they hear and to 14 verbalize this experience. CBC 15 radio, like no other medium, 16 gives me the opportunity to 17 visualize what I'm hearing, to 18 internalize the information, and 19 to receive inspiration as a 20 writer by hearing the work of 21 and interviews with other 22 writers." (As read) 23 976 And from one of Saskatchewan's senior 24 writers who wished to remain anonymous, she says: 25 "I was ticked off when CBC radio StenoTran 201 1 got so cut that it was using 2 people like me for free. I did 3 a special item for a national 4 program expecting to be given a 5 contract and never was, so I 6 complained to the CBC because it 7 had taken about a day of my 8 time. They then paid me $100. 9 I didn't fight for more. My 10 argument was that they shouldn't 11 be getting my talent for free 12 while they were paying everybody 13 else." (As read) 14 977 Finally, Eileen Comstock(ph) is from 15 Moose Jaw, and she says: 16 "As one of Saskatchewan CBC 17 radio's many rural faithful, we 18 used to be able to lock on to 19 CBK all day. The menu was 20 varied, interesting and did not 21 insult our intelligence nor 22 insult our ears as private 23 stations often do. Lately, due 24 to financial constraints, there 25 is so much repetition of StenoTran 202 1 regional items here in 2 Saskatchewan that dedicated 3 listeners are turned off. This 4 deterioration not only irritates 5 the listener, it means a loss of 6 local work depriving 7 Saskatchewan writers and artists 8 of a market outlet." (As read) 9 978 Eileen closes with this: 10 "There once was a farmer who, in 11 the interests of economy, 12 reduced his horse's rations a 13 little bit every day. He 14 boasted to his neighbour that he 15 had just about succeeded in 16 getting a horse who could work 17 with no input at all but the 18 darn thing died." (As read) 19 979 So with that I will close my comments 20 from the Saskatchewan Writers Guild portion of my 21 presentation. 22 980 In 1997, from January to March, I 23 worked full time as an unpaid volunteer for a petition 24 campaign called CBC Ours to Keep. It was a response to 25 the huge cutbacks foisted on the CBC at that time. Our StenoTran 203 1 organization was grassroots, national and not organized 2 by the Friends of Canadian Broadcasting as some people 3 believe it was. There was a captain in each province 4 and I served in that capacity for Saskatchewan. It was 5 an all-consuming task, but an experience I would not 6 have passed up for the world. 7 981 During our campaign I was accosted in 8 restaurants, approached on the street, queried while 9 grocery shopping by people, often strangers, who wanted 10 to tell me about their personal relationship with the 11 CBC. Whether it was a young stay-at-home mom who saw 12 Morningside as her link to the adult world, or a 13 university student who just loved This Hour Has 14 22 Minutes, or a guy at the bus depot who wanted to be 15 able to hear the Hab's hockey games in French, day 16 after day I was connected to people in Saskatoon 17 because we all cared about the CBC. 18 982 I received letters and phone calls 19 from all over Saskatchewan, people who couldn't believe 20 that we were having to petition the government on this 21 kind of an issue. From farmers who appreciated the 22 dedicated staff on the Radio Noon Edition to citizens 23 in Prince Albert who were working toward getting their 24 own FM stereo service so they could hear the New York 25 Opera or to our First Nations' communities who were StenoTran 204 1 affirmed by North of 60, the people of Saskatchewan 2 told me again and again that through the CBC they heard 3 and saw themselves reflected and could travel beyond 4 our provincial boundaries without leaving home. 5 983 In Saskatchewan, in a few short 6 weeks, we collected almost 21,000 names to add to the 7 quarter million collected nationally, and these are the 8 21 million -- 21 million, I wish -- 21,000 names. I 9 have brought them from the Saskatchewan archives. We 10 photocopied each and every petition page painstakingly 11 so we would have a record of what we had done. There 12 are of course lots of comments there to read as well. 13 984 We had the highest per capita count 14 coming out of Saskatchewan for this campaign, and our 15 names came from 325 Saskatchewan communities. 16 Saskatoon was very active in this effort and I think I 17 can speak for many people of my city when I say it is 18 high time Saskatoon got its six o'clock television news 19 program back again. I cite Calgary and Windsor as two 20 other cities which lost their stations at the same time 21 Saskatoon did, but their programs were reinstated quite 22 some time ago. 23 985 Having said that I would like to see 24 more news on television, I would certainly like to hear 25 less on Radio One. I really don't get it. Why the CBC StenoTran 205 1 powers that be think that we need to be updated every 2 half hour of the day is beyond me. It interrupts all 3 sorts of other kinds of programming that they are 4 doing. 5 986 In the future I would like to see the 6 balance of programming on Radio One improved. Our 7 regional morning, noon, afternoon and weekend programs 8 have been bled to death, as you have heard from many 9 other people I think today. Many of us consider these 10 programs to be a unifying force in the province in the 11 same way that CBC unites people across Canada. It's 12 insulting to have our regional shows so cut back now 13 that they consist mostly of a host talking over the 14 telephone to someone. 15 987 We have lost just about everything 16 that used to make our radio a rich audio experience, a 17 true art form. Our weekend shows which used to have 18 serious, interesting content about Saskatchewan are 19 just music programs now with a few repeats thrown in. 20 988 To speak about the bigger picture for 21 a moment, for the record, I would like to say that it 22 seems to me that CBC is always going to be in jeopardy 23 so long as the Board of Directors and the President are 24 government appointees. The future health of the CBC is 25 dependent upon finding some other way of selecting the StenoTran 206 1 leadership for our institution or at least for a new 2 way of selecting some of the leaders that are at the 3 top of the CBC. It is such an important Canadian 4 institution that I believe this is one of the first 5 things that the CRTC should be trying to do, to look at 6 for us, on behalf of us. I don't know if that really 7 fits in with the role of the CRTC, but it seems to me 8 it is something you could at least explore. 9 989 There are a lot of other things I 10 could say, but I'm going to stop there. 11 990 I would like to close by saying that 12 it would be nice if the CRTC came out like this more 13 often. I understand it is the first time that this 14 kind of a tour across Canada has happened for you. I'm 15 amazed at the kind of coverage you were able to get 16 from the CBC. You have been on just about every news 17 show that I have watched in the last week, not you 18 personally but the fact that this is all going on. I 19 can't help but compare it to the experience that we had 20 as just Canadian citizens trying to help the CBC. 21 991 When we ran our campaign, it was like 22 pulling teeth to get any kind of coverage of our 23 numerous events from the CBC, and this is both 24 regionally and nationally. They said it was in the 25 interests of objectivity. So I'm very curious about StenoTran 207 1 how it is that when another government organization 2 comes to town and is driving the agenda, rather than 3 just Canadian citizens, the CBC seems to have no qualms 4 about promoting itself and talking about itself in the 5 various programs, both on TV and radio. 6 992 In April 1997, when the Ours to Keep 7 captains -- there were 13 of us of course from every 8 province and territory in Canada -- when we took the 9 time to fly to Ontario to present our quarter million 10 petitions to the government, with the help of the Air 11 Farce and Pierre Burton I might add, the CBC National 12 TV News deemed the event absolutely unworthy of even so 13 much as a mention. They just didn't bother. 14 993 I was appalled and offended. I don't 15 care what else was making the news that day. To answer 16 the question made so famous by the late Barbara Frum, 17 yes, I'm bitter. I think there is something really 18 screwy with a public broadcaster that won't pay a 19 little attention to those who care so deeply about it. 20 994 Thank you very much. 21 995 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 22 Ms Baker, Mr. Rice. 23 996 Mr. Secretary. 24 997 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Commissioner. 25 998 Mr. John W. Haskey, please. StenoTran 208 1 999 Mr. Haskey is not with us? Okay. 2 1835 3 1000 Mr. Ron Clark. 4 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 5 1001 MR. CLARK: I'm grateful for this 6 opportunity to share my reflections in support of the 7 renewal of the licence of the Canadian Broadcasting 8 Corporation. 9 1002 While my family has easy access to a 10 wide range of channels and stations, we keep finding 11 yourselves tuning back to the CBC for information and 12 entertainment. The reasons for this lie deep within 13 our need for familiar language and subject material 14 that affirms our identity as Canadians and which 15 emphasizes community rather than individualism. 16 1003 In the last few years I have been 17 very disturbed about the financial cutbacks and 18 restraints experienced by production workers and 19 artists. The result, in my perception, is greater 20 centralization of programming and production, and I 21 continue to admire the creative way that the CBC 22 Radio One in Saskatchewan has managed to continue. 23 Sheila Cole's daily Morning Edition, the Noon Edition, 24 Colin Grewer's Afternoon Edition are daily experiences 25 and companions in my life. StenoTran 209 1 1004 From the time I awaken until 6:00 at 2 night, I feel I'm exposed to events that are happening 3 in politics, the arts, farming and people's personal 4 lives in our region. Whether in the car or at home, I 5 have the dial turned to AM 540. I would not want to 6 have any more cutbacks to local and regional 7 broadcasting. I think I share this view with the 8 majority of Canadian CBC listeners wherever they reside 9 in Canada. 10 1005 As far as the CBC TV is concerned, 11 it's a shame to see cutbacks in the evening news 12 produced locally or regionally. I would like to see 13 this reinstated and expanded -- yes, Saskatoon news 14 coverage reinstated. 15 1006 I believe that the difference which 16 is reflected by public radio broadcasting contrasted 17 with privately owned stations, this difference needs to 18 continue. People need an alternative to canned music, 19 hotshot DJs, steady country and western music, rock 20 music and the golden oldies, five minutes of non-stop 21 commercials, and silly, uninformative talk shows and 22 game shows. Canadian produced television dramas, 23 musicals, variety and comedy shows have more than 24 proven their worth. Series such as Sunday Family Hours 25 have proven that quality can be produced in this StenoTran 210 1 country given adequate budgets. 2 1007 The special role of the CBC is to 3 resist the cultural encroachment of American values. 4 The depiction of crime and those who work in that 5 field, for example, as portrayed in shows like 6 DaVinci's Inquest, reflects Canadian reality and indeed 7 human reality. The prevalence of guns, privatized 8 medicine, hero worship, hollywood domination of culture 9 and a certain jingoism are fortunately absent in most 10 Canadian features. 11 1008 I believe there is a role for 12 partnerships between the CBC and private production 13 companies in creating arts, drama, children's shows and 14 comedy for day time and prime time viewing. I believe, 15 however, that the budgetary restraints have been too 16 great. It has become too obvious that reruns are used 17 to fill too many time allocations. 18 1009 As I have said, at our house, we keep 19 turning back to the CBC for quality programs after 20 maybe we have watched, oh, our favourite football or 21 curling game on TSN or the occasional sitcom on CTV or 22 Global. If we are still awake, The National is our 23 preferred news coverage in addition to CBC national 24 radio telecasts such as The World at Six. 25 1010 The role of the CBC in fostering StenoTran 211 1 Canadian talent, discovering Canadian talent and 2 promoting the fine artists of this country cannot be 3 emphasized enough. It has been highly influential in 4 my life. My love for drama and music and history grew 5 out of radio from the forties and fifties. Saturday 6 Afternoons at the Met, Lux and Radio theatres, CBC 7 school broadcasts have made huge impacts in my life 8 vocation and interests. 9 1011 The CBC has brought me in touch with 10 the distinctive Canadian cultures, national debates, 11 international sporting events, international affairs. 12 They have held a mirror to me about who I am and where 13 I fit with Canadian and global society. 14 1012 I am aware of what media coverage we 15 would be forced to be exposed to should the CBC radio 16 and TV not exist and it's truly frightening. That this 17 great public service might be furthered curtailed by 18 uncaring or misguided federal regimes leaves me angry 19 and afraid. 20 1013 Thanks for hearing my views. 21 1014 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 22 Mr. Clark. 23 1015 Mr. Secretary. 24 1016 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 25 1840 StenoTran 212 1 1017 Dan Cameron, please. 2 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 3 1018 MR. CAMERON: My remarks sort of 4 present a vision for CBC TV, I'm not speaking as to 5 radio, and to prevent you from taking copious notes I 6 can give you my presentation in writing. I will hand 7 it in. 8 1019 I have six points and I will try and 9 make them briefly. 10 1020 The first thing I would see for the 11 CBC is I would like to see an arm's-length relationship 12 between the government and the CBC. As you are well 13 aware, there is talk currently of establishing a 14 vice presidency in the CBC that would in fact oversee 15 news and public affairs. 16 1021 Now, there is no question in my mind 17 the intention of that is to control the CBC because for 18 many of us out here on the ground, the CBC, in this 19 country, is today the official opposition. We don't 20 seem to get it in our Parliament. You can speak to 21 things like the APEC inquiry and so on and so forth 22 that simply illustrate that for me as well as the 23 current inquiry into the Canadian olympic organization 24 and so on the CBC is taking on, things like 25 Market Place. I don't see those things on private TV. StenoTran 213 1 I don't see W5 on other -- Global or things like that. 2 1022 So I think it is very important that 3 we have an arm's-length relationship between government 4 and the CBC and that it be emphasized, that the 5 president of the CBC be appointed by the Board, 6 recruited and appointed by the Board of the CBC. That 7 is normal practice. If in fact you are going to have a 8 president of a corporation, that should be done. 9 1023 In terms of the board members 10 themselves, there have been some rather questionable 11 selections to the CBC Board, particularly during the 12 Mulroney years. I had the misfortune of meeting one of 13 those individuals, who I won't name, and I said to 14 myself, "This is the character of the people who are 15 running national broadcasting?" It left me with really 16 serious concerns. 17 1024 I think the board members should be 18 appointed by government from a list prepared by an 19 agency, for example, like the Canada Council, the 20 government should select from that list its appointees, 21 and those selected should be party to approval by an 22 all party parliamentary committee. So it is going to 23 your point that we need that. Okay. 24 1025 The second point I should make is 25 that we should have a greater emphasis on quality StenoTran 214 1 programming. Here I cast my eyes heaven word and give 2 thanks that Ken Finkleman has chosen to return to 3 Canada and is doing such a wonderful job. I would also 4 suggest that in fact we have greater investigative 5 reports, particularly on social and political issues. 6 I put to you that there is not a handful of Canadians 7 who really understand why 49 plus per cent of Quebecers 8 voted for sovereignty, the real reasons Canadians don't 9 know, and you will find the public broadcaster in fact, 10 in my opinion, is simply serving as a mouthpiece for 11 the spin doctors in government. 12 1026 So I'm suggesting here that in fact 13 these types of realities of introducing one part of the 14 country to another and its concerns to other parts of 15 the country should be a key mandate of CBC. I'm very 16 pleased that in fact they are producing a history of 17 Canada which I think is long overdue. 18 1027 On a third point, we have a separate 19 cable channel for CBC that would feature cultural and 20 educational broadcasting. Currently Bravo has this 21 responsibility. Right now it is in contravention of 22 its licensing requirements that not more than 25 per 23 cent of its broadcasting between 7:00 and 11:00 p.m. be 24 produced in the U.S. That is a requirement in writing, 25 in law, as far as its contract. It does not meet that. StenoTran 215 1 Any place west of Winnipeg it's less than 50 per cent. 2 I find it just incongruous that the CRTC would insist 3 on Canadian programming levels only where it resided. 4 If you are looking elsewhere, it's less than the 25 per 5 cent. 6 1028 Also, with Bravo, you will find that 7 most of its cultural broadcasting, in fact, in the 8 evening is very commercial. Any of its cultural stuff 9 is buried in the off hours after midnight or during the 10 day. I think that licence was one of the CRTC's real 11 disasters and that in fact when that licence opens for 12 renewal in the Year 2000 it should be open for public 13 bidding, and the CBC be given a fair shot this time at 14 filling that licence requirement. 15 1029 In terms of local news, my fourth 16 point, I believe that in fact the local news should 17 combine the best features, one of the strengths of the 18 CBC, which is its national news coverage. So the local 19 news should be in fact a combination of local and 20 national news that is more complete. You find that in 21 fact local news in the commercial stations is really 22 local, really local, of the man-bites-dog variety. 23 1030 I met my friends outside -- I came 24 out of the labour relations field myself -- I had some 25 chat with them outside. I would suggest to them and to StenoTran 216 1 you that the CBC and its unions -- this is my fifth 2 point -- get their act together and agree on a more 3 collaborative union-management relationship, 4 union-management employee relationship. What these 5 people are doing are squabbling over the golden eggs 6 and they don't seem to give a damn about the goose that 7 lays them. Instead of fighting over the crumbs, they 8 should be collaborating together to see if they can 9 make better use of the crumbs that exist and get more 10 crumbs, and that is not happening. 11 1031 There is enough examples of those 12 collaborative existences. This is not pie in the sky. 13 It happens. There are local examples where union and 14 management and employees work collaboratively together. 15 In fact, I have an example here I'm prepared to give 16 with my presentation. 17 1032 I would also suggest, as my sixth 18 point, that all TV broadcasters be treated in the same 19 fashion as the CBC. Currently, the local Global TV 20 station outlet here has no Canadian content from 6:30 21 to 10:30, five days a week, 365 days a year. Zero. 22 None. The local CTV is not much better. 23 1033 My daughter tonight, I asked her if 24 she could name the two American presidents on 25 Mount Rushmore and she could. I asked her if she could StenoTran 217 1 name two previous Canadian Prime Ministers and she 2 couldn't. I asked her, "Well, how did you learn about 3 this?" She said, "Well, I think I saw it on TV." So I 4 would suggest: When is the CRTC going to do a 5 cross-country hearing, similar to this one, on the 6 effects of this type of TV broadcasting on our sense of 7 national consciousness? 8 1034 Thank you. 9 1035 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 10 Mr. Cameron. 11 1036 Mr. Secretary. 12 1037 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 13 1848 14 1038 Lucy Eley, please. 15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 16 1039 MS ELEY: Good evening. 17 1040 I guess this isn't a very 18 well-thought out thing. 19 1041 Anyway, I just wanted to say -- and, 20 actually, from a sense of fear that the CBC might be 21 cut still further than it has been and that the people 22 are just sort of closing in on it to knock it off, I 23 just wanted to say that I think that the CBC radio is a 24 very valuable resource. It has made a wide world of 25 culture available to the people of Canada, originally StenoTran 218 1 through local radio stations and then through CBK at 2 Watrous when it had its own station. 3 1042 I can remember listening to Woodhouse 4 and Hawkins. There was A Baker's Dozen, a series of 5 plays involving Lister Sinclair, and a Moose Jaw author 6 whose name I have forgotten. But I remember being 7 shocked to think that we could actually have an author 8 in Moose Jaw who could write a play that would be put 9 on the radio. 10 1043 It has provided a source of income 11 for writers, actors, technical people, all sorts of 12 people who make valuable contributions to our society. 13 Right now I'm thinking of Harry Sommers(ph), who I'm 14 sure got a lot of support from the CBC in his musical 15 career and also of the support that it gives to 16 Regina's musicians in broadcasting -- or taping and 17 broadcasting our symphony concerts and other things 18 like that. 19 1044 It has also made us aware of other 20 parts of Canada. I think back to listening to the 21 broadcasts about the Springfield Mine disaster, now I 22 think it went on too long but it was very impressive; 23 about the Alora(ph) community in Ontario, which I'm 24 sure I would never have heard of if it hadn't been for 25 their work, their song, you know, singing being StenoTran 219 1 broadcast on the CBC; and those interviews on the radio 2 with Rozy Robothen(ph) and the insights that he has 3 given into our prison system. All those kinds of 4 things are very valuable for us to have contact with. 5 1045 The CBC radio keeps reminding me how 6 very nice and how interesting Canadians, and especially 7 Saskatchewanians are, I mean, even when you don't 8 necessarily agree with their views. 9 1046 I haven't watched much TV since the 10 intrusion of advertising. I just can't stand to reach 11 a vital point in something and then be watching 12 somebody chasing a role of toilet paper or something 13 like that. I mean, it just -- so I just don't really 14 bother. 15 1047 But I do remember -- I suppose when 16 the CBC had more public funding and so on -- I can 17 remember watching with pleasure Front Page Challenge, 18 This Hour Has Seven Days, and Man Alive. There were 19 all sorts of good things on CBC TV at one time. As I 20 say, I hardly ever see it any more because I can't 21 stand the advertising. 22 1048 Also, there have been wonderful 23 programs on the French TV. In the late seventies maybe 24 or early eighties -- I forget who was premier then, but 25 they had some wonderful plays on and then suddenly they StenoTran 220 1 were gone. I think, like "Beau Dimanche", if you will 2 pardon my French, also has some very good things which 3 I watch quite often if I can, even though I find they 4 speak far too quickly. 5 1049 I guess what I'm saying is that the 6 CBC opens our eyes to the wide possibilities of human 7 life and human achievement in Canada and throughout the 8 world. John Ruskin talked about people who knew the 9 price of everything and the value of nothing. The CBC 10 admittedly comes at a price but its value is 11 immeasurable and I certainly hope that it will continue 12 to receive support. I have one major complaint about 13 the CBC or perhaps two. 14 1050 The first one is the current attempt 15 to get with it, as I guess, by putting everything in 16 the present tense in news reports. It's most annoying 17 to say, "I'm back on whatever", you know, instead of, 18 "I will be back." This will eventually destroy some of 19 the subtleties of the English language. I won't go 20 into that, but I think maybe people don't realize it, 21 you know, the difference in meaning between those kinds 22 of sentences. It doesn't make the news any more 23 relevant or, as far as I can see, exciting and, 24 actually, I can't see why the news should have to be 25 exciting. StenoTran 221 1 1051 The other thing, my other complaint 2 is that unless I have a definite appointment I find it 3 difficult to get out of the house if I have the radio 4 on or prepare presentations such as this one, because 5 there is always something interesting on the radio and 6 I want to keep on listening and hear the end of it. 7 1052 Thank you very much. 8 1053 And how should it fulfil its role in 9 the future? Well, continue as it is but with more 10 funding and lots of resources. I think it's worth 11 every cent that we pay for it. 12 1054 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Eley. 13 1055 Mr. Secretary. 14 1056 MR. LAHAY: Thank you. 15 1057 Susie Matthews, please. 16 1058 Susie Matthews. Okay. 17 1855 18 1059 Kevin DeWalt. 19 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 20 1060 MR. DeWALT: Thank you. 21 1061 My name is Kevin DeWalt and I'm the 22 President of the Saskatchewan Film Producers 23 Association. On behalf of myself and my members of my 24 association, I want to thank the CRTC for the 25 opportunity to speak to you today. StenoTran 222 1 1062 My presentation, which I as well have 2 copies I will leave with you, primarily focuses on the 3 interests of the independent film and television 4 production community in Saskatchewan. It goes without 5 saying that our members feel very strongly that the CBC 6 is an organization and a broadcast system that needs 7 support, continued support, and we very much support, 8 around this table, the need for renewal and continued 9 support on an ongoing basis. 10 1063 The Saskatchewan Film Producers 11 Association is a non-profit incorporated entity with a 12 mission to represent the interests of independent film 13 and television production companies in Saskatchewan. 14 The organization's membership criterion is voting 15 membership in the Canadian Film and Television 16 Production Association. The 10 production companies in 17 Saskatchewan who are members of our association are 18 responsible for 90 per cent of the independent 19 production volume in the province and over 90 per cent 20 of all employment in the independent film and video 21 sector. 22 1064 The SFPA supports the renewal of the 23 CBC licence and acknowledges that the CBC is and should 24 remain the key broadcast partner in the production of 25 Canadian indigenous stories in both the dramatic and StenoTran 223 1 non-fiction genres. At the same time, we have some 2 thoughts and suggestions as to how the CBC might better 3 meet the terms of its mandate in the future, some of 4 which we believe merit consideration as possible 5 conditions to be included in any licence renewal. 6 1065 Among its many important public 7 policy roles, the CBC has provided Canadian writers, 8 directors, performers and producers a stage on which to 9 perform for Canadians and audiences around the world. 10 Canadian television programming is critically acclaimed 11 and acknowledged around the world for its quality and 12 we are second only to the U.S. in export sales. The 13 reality of today's film and television industry is that 14 many successful productions are done in Toronto, 15 Montreal and Vancouver and they are also made in the 16 Maritimes and of course the Prairies. 17 1066 Recently, Saskatchewan has begun to 18 play a larger role. Production activity here doubled 19 in the past year from $26 million in 1997 to over 20 $50 million in 1998. Key contributors to that growth 21 have been the Canadian Television Fund, TeleFilm 22 Canada, the Federal Tax Credit Program, and more 23 recently our own provincial tax program. 24 1067 It is the job of independent 25 producers, such as SFPA members, to create partnerships StenoTran 224 1 between private and public sources of funds, between 2 producers, broadcasters, distributors and government 3 agencies. Against formidable odds, these partnerships 4 make our industry viable in spite of the small size of 5 our domestic market and the fact that we live next door 6 to the dominant force in the global entertainment and 7 communications industry. 8 1068 CBC has been an essential part of 9 these partnerships in Saskatchewan for many, many 10 years, although, to be candid, its role here has faded 11 considerably in the past few years. Unfortunately, 12 just as Saskatchewan's independent production sector 13 has really come into its own -- I'm sorry -- has faded 14 considerably and it is unfortunate that this has 15 happened as our sector has really come in its own. 16 1069 In the early 1990s, information 17 series such as What On Earth and Utopia Cafe were 18 developed locally and went on to be exhibited 19 nationally on the network. This helped to create a 20 base for non-fiction production which led to several 21 documentaries for the main network and Newsworld: 22 Frankie and Walter, Lost Legacy, the Last Word From 23 Moose Jaw, the Live to Polka, The Boys Who Loved 24 Hockey, The Plays, The Thing. I could name many more. 25 From a standing start seven or eight years ago these StenoTran 225 1 are impressive achievements. 2 1070 What has been more elusive has been a 3 commitment to dramatic production in this region. 4 Although, Saskatchewan has served as a location for a 5 number of major CBC miniseries originated and 6 majority-owned by Toronto and Montreal companies, 7 examples are Love and Hate, Big Bear, and the upcoming 8 Revenge of the Land, there has not been a concerted 9 effort to work with Saskatchewan companies to develop 10 and produce dramatic programs from and about 11 Saskatchewan. 12 1071 While we in no way want to diminish 13 the importance of these miniseries and movies which 14 provide important employment opportunities for 15 Saskatchewan talent and crew, and told compelling 16 Saskatchewan stories, it has to be acknowledged that 17 until Saskatchewan companies are welcomed as full 18 partners by the CBC in the creation of drama 19 programming, it will be difficult for us to build and 20 maintain any sustainable infrastructure needed to tell 21 our own Saskatchewan stories. 22 1072 As the CEO of a production company 23 which has, in the past few years, supplied dramatic 24 movies and miniseries to Canadian regional and 25 specialty channels, such as WIC, YTV, Baton's VTV, the StenoTran 226 1 A-Channel, and to international broadcasters including 2 the BBC, TV 1 of France, Show Time in the USA and SAT 1 3 in Germany, to name a few, I admit to being somewhat 4 frustrated at the continuing difficulty enlisting the 5 support of national mainstream broadcasters, especially 6 the CBC. 7 1073 While it would be easy to attribute 8 this problem to budget cuts which have 9 disproportionately affected regional decision making 10 and thus production, and indeed this is a large part of 11 the problem, it has to be noted that the CBC has made 12 efforts on occasion to nurture drama in the regions. 13 For example, Alberta recently had a series called North 14 of 60 and British Columbia presently has a series 15 called DaVinci's Inquest. Of course the maritimes has 16 had a healthy share of CBC production in recent years. 17 1074 What is missing however is a 18 sustained and comprehensive vision that places the 19 regions front and centre in CBC's program development 20 and schedule planning activities. Rather than 21 occasionally reacting to the pressures exerted by 22 regional producers by placing a Toronto-developed 23 series in a regional location, there needs to be an 24 understanding that many of the country's most 25 compelling stories occur in the regions and that it is StenoTran 227 1 in the CBC's best interests, from both a mandate and 2 audience perspective, to nurture the storytellers here, 3 the writers, the directors, the actors, the crew and 4 the production companies. 5 1075 Every province in Canada now has 6 qualified production companies with demonstrated track 7 records in drama production. It is time for the CBC to 8 ensure that it is partnering with these companies from 9 coast to coast on a consistent basis. 10 1076 As a first step, our membership 11 proposes that serious considerations be given to 12 mechanisms which would open up the CBC drama to ideas 13 from the regional provinces. 14 1077 The BBC in the U.K. serves as an 15 instructive example here. I happen to be doing two 16 international co-productions with U.K. partners and the 17 BBC is a partner in one of them. The BBC, several 18 years ago, made a number of changes in the way it does 19 business and introduced -- under the rubric of producer 20 choice whereby independent producers were put on a 21 relatively equal footing with in-house BBC producers in 22 competing for broadcast slots and resources, regional 23 expenditure targets were formulated and regional 24 offices were given the authority and autonomy to 25 develop and produce drama programming. Now, seven, StenoTran 228 1 eight years later, much of the best and most successful 2 drama indigenous programming in the U.K. on the network 3 originates from its regional offices. 4 1078 Unlike the CBC, BBC did not respond 5 to budget cuts by reducing their regional presence. 6 Instead they were a trigger to increase regional 7 production. In other words, they saw it as an 8 investment, not a cost, and the investment is paying 9 off. 10 1079 Judging by the success of such 11 Saskatchewan produced drama projects as Conquest, 12 Summer of the Monkeys, the Lost Daughter, Incredible 13 Stories, Studios and Guitar Man. I can go on and on. 14 There is no reason to believe that making a similar 15 investment in the regions of this country would not 16 produce similar results. We believe it is time for the 17 CBC to set regional expenditure envelopes for 18 independent production and for the CBC management to be 19 accountable that targets are met. 20 1080 We further believe that this would be 21 an appropriate condition of a renewed CBC television 22 licence. On the other end of the scale, smaller and 23 emerging producers share many of the challenges faced 24 by drama producers for somewhat different reasons. 25 1081 In years past, CBC offices across the StenoTran 229 1 country had more ability to create and program 2 regionally orientated information and documentary 3 programming. Many creative talents got their start in 4 this way. As independent production sectors began to 5 emerge in the smaller provinces in the late 1980s and 6 early 1990s, much of their initial growth came from 7 projects undertaken for regional CBC transmission. 8 1082 With the funding cuts of the past few 9 years and the decision to centralize all of the program 10 decision making for the English network in Toronto, 11 these opportunities for small regional relevant 12 projects have diminished significantly as regional 13 airtime has nearly disappeared and resources have 14 primarily dried up. Our members feel that this is 15 regrettable as regional programming is relatively 16 inexpensive, is a great incubator for emerging talent 17 in this country and has much to offer the network in 18 helping to attain its mandate, quote: 19 "...to reflect Canada and its 20 regions to national and regional 21 audiences while serving the 22 special needs of the region." 23 (As read) 24 1083 As set out by the Broadcasting Act. 25 1084 As a second recommendation, we feel StenoTran 230 1 that provision of regional windows for regional 2 productions should be a condition of the renewed 3 licence. 4 1085 Finally, we feel that there is a need 5 for the CBC to become smarter about how it uses its 6 financial resources and more open to partnerships with 7 the private sector. There may be important reasons 8 why, even after the budget reductions of recent years, 9 the CBC would presently be undertaking new initiatives 10 in the areas of niche channels and new media, for 11 example, or why the corporation continues to do some 12 in-house drama and variety production. In the absence 13 of more information, it is difficult for us to comment 14 on these. However, I know of a few Canadian 15 independent producers who do not share a strong belief 16 in the mandate and purpose of the corporation and I 17 submit that we would be appropriate business partners 18 if the CBC has a strategic need to move in such 19 directions. 20 1086 We have locally, in Regina, an 21 example of how an apparent disinterest in partnering 22 with the private sector has been, in our opinion, a 23 deterrent of the corporation. The CBC Broadcast Centre 24 in Regina, one of the more impressive and modern 25 facilities owned by the corporation, is presently StenoTran 231 1 highly under utilized in the wake of successful staff 2 reductions. A number of independently produced 3 television series, What On Earth, Utopia Cafe, 4 Maxamatics, as examples, have made use of these 5 facilities over the last couple of years through 6 facility deals. That's where corporations contribute 7 facilities instead of cash, which I must say have been 8 with excellent results. Representatives from the 9 independent sector have approached the CBC on more than 10 one occasion in the past few years with a proposal to 11 put these facilities to use as the basis of a 12 production incubator facilitating support to 10 to 15 13 up and coming Saskatchewan film, television and new 14 media companies. 15 1087 Another suggestion that was taken 16 forward was the idea that the provincial government and 17 the private sector buy the CBC Regina plant and at 18 least back the portion that the CBC needed with the 19 balance of space used to create a centre of excellence 20 for the provincial film, television and new media 21 industries. We believe that this concept was at least 22 worthy of exploration and could have been to the 23 financial benefit of the corporation. 24 1088 To date, there has been little in the 25 way of any constructive response, and those of us who StenoTran 232 1 have championed these ideas have reluctantly concluded 2 that our efforts were in vain. Today it is estimated 3 that over 50 per cent of the Regina CBC plant is not 4 utilized. 5 1089 In summary, I would like to reiterate 6 three specific recommendations: that the CBC establish 7 and be measured against regional expenditure envelopes 8 for independent production; two, that the CBC 9 reinstitute access to airtime on a regional basis 10 beyond the evening news; and, three, that the CBC 11 receive encouragement to become more open to regional 12 independent production companies who can be, if given a 13 chance, critical partners in the corporation's future 14 growth and success. 15 1090 The Broadcasting Act refers to the 16 CBC's obligation to: 17 "...contribute to a shared 18 national consciousness and 19 identity." (As read) 20 1091 Independent producers understand and 21 relate to that objective. That's why many of us got 22 into the business in the first place. 23 1092 In partnership with a renewed and 24 revitalized CBC, I am confident that we will achieve 25 our common goal of a strong Canadian CBC and StenoTran 233 1 broadcasting system. 2 1093 On behalf of the SFPA and my members, 3 I would like to thank you for the opportunity to speak 4 to the Committee this evening. 5 1094 Thanks. 6 1095 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 7 Mr. DeWalt. 8 1096 Mr. Secretary. 9 1097 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 10 1912 11 1098 Robert Waldegger, please. 12 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 13 1099 MR. WALDEGGER: My name is 14 Robert Waldegger. I'm here on behalf of the 15 Saskatchewan Pro-Life Association. We have a database 16 of 30,000 families in the province. 17 1100 I'm here to speak about a bias we 18 believe is in the CBC. My comments are going to be 19 based on a critique of a particular program. 20 1101 As an example of CBC's bias towards 21 pro-lifers, I make the following comments based on the 22 January 20th CBC program National Magazine's "Thou 23 Shalt Not Kill". 24 1102 Thou Shalt Not Kill was a deliberate 25 but unsuccessful attempt to establish solid links StenoTran 234 1 between the peaceful Canadian pro-life movement and a 2 tiny fringe of outspoken U.S. anti-abortion activists. 3 1103 As a taxpayer-funded organization, 4 the CBC is obliged to represent the views of all 5 mainstream Canadians. In this case, it gave excessive 6 coverage to American radicals and Canadian abortion 7 providers who hold that the Canadian movement is 8 responsible for violence suffered by abortion providers 9 in this country. 10 1104 Pro-lifers are responding that the 11 abuse of standards of fairness and honesty in the CBC 12 report is inexcusable and are demanding an apology and 13 an opportunity for equal response. 14 1105 The following observations made by 15 pro-life leaders across the country demonstrates the 16 bias of the documentary and its misleading tactics, 17 such as attempting to use guilt-by-association to 18 vilify the Canadian pro-life movement. 19 1106 CBC was unable to find a single 20 example of proven violence or support of violence by 21 the Canadian pro-life movement. It therefore resorted 22 to showing clips of U.S. anti-abortion groups who 23 refuse to condemn the killing of abortionists. 24 1107 The CBC then attempted, through 25 carefully crafted and selected clips, to create StenoTran 235 1 apparent links between the mainstream movement and the 2 few violent fringe U.S. individuals. 3 1108 The CBC allowed only two minutes of 4 commentary from Canadian pro-lifers on their entire 5 24-minute program. Campaign Life Coalition leader 6 Jim Hughes was the only Canadian pro-life activist 7 interviewed, and only two minutes of a two-hour 8 interview were used for the program. Mr. Hughes was 9 the only mainstream pro-lifer interviewed for the 10 entire program and mainstream, non-violent, U.S. 11 pro-lifers were completely left out or not mentioned. 12 1109 The CBC chose not to air Mr. Hughes' 13 outright condemnation of all abortion violence, 14 including his strong condemnation of the violence 15 directed toward abortionists or others in the abortion 16 industry. 17 1110 The rest of the mainstream pro-life 18 movement also condemns abortion violence against 19 preborn children, the violence against children's 20 mothers and the violence directed against pro-lifers by 21 abortion advocates. 22 1111 If CBC were really concerned about 23 stopping so-called pro-life violence in Canada, then 24 they would have aired compelling arguments by 25 Jim Hughes and others about the necessity for StenoTran 236 1 non-violent pro-life activism, saying that those who 2 advocate violence, including the killing of 3 abortionists are not pro-lifers. 4 1112 One clip on the program saw angry 5 pro-abortion advocates yelling and screaming at 6 pro-lifers. However, this clip followed the standard 7 formula of making it seem that it was the pro-lifers 8 exhibiting the obnoxious behaviour. 9 1113 Finally, if CBC wanted to do a story 10 on the pro-life radicals in Canada, they could have 11 interviewed the Canadian pro-lifer who has served the 12 most time in jail for peacefully praying in front of 13 abortion mills. The obvious reason CBC did not feature 14 grandmother Linda Gibbons is because here is a story of 15 faith, peace and non-violence. We use this example as 16 one example of the many that have happened on the CBC. 17 1114 In respect to the future of the CBC, 18 we respectfully submit that the CBC should be sold to 19 private interests. 20 1115 Thank you very much. 21 1116 I have a copy of the text for you, 22 sir. 23 1117 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 24 Mr. Waldegger. 25 1118 I just wanted to clarify. I thought StenoTran 237 1 I heard you say at the first that CBC had a bias 2 towards pro-lifers. 3 1119 MR. WALDEGGER: No. It's against 4 pro-lifers. 5 1120 THE CHAIRPERSON: Against pro-lifers? 6 1121 MR. WALDEGGER: Yes. 7 1122 THE CHAIRPERSON: What I had heard 8 was towards. I just wanted to verify that. 9 1123 Has your association sued CBC for 10 this, for defamation at all? 11 1124 MR. WALDEGGER: No. 12 1125 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 13 1915 14 1126 MR. LAHAY: Our final presenter for 15 the first group of presenters, Raymond Morin et Denis 16 DesGagné, s'il vous plaît. 17 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 18 1127 M. MORIN: Bonsoir. La présentation 19 va être en français. Alors, peut-être s'il y a des 20 gens dans la salle qui veulent avoir la traduction, 21 est-ce qu'ils veulent se servir des récepteurs 22 d'interprétation, Monsieur le Secrétaire? 23 1128 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Nous avons la 24 traduction. Mr. Morin will be speaking in French. If 25 anybody wishes to obtain a traducteur you simply have StenoTran 238 1 to provide them with your driver's licence. 2 --- Pause / Pause 3 1129 M. MORIN: Oui, bonsoir. Nous 4 désirons remercier les membres du CRTC pour 5 l'opportunité que vous nous avez donné ce soir pour 6 exprimer notre point de vue. 7 1130 Pour élaborer ce mémoire, nous avons 8 demandé l'avis des douze communautés fransaskoises sur 9 la Société Radio-Canada afin de préparer un mémoire ce 10 soir. À noter cependant que cela n'empêche pas 11 nullement les communautés de vous faire des 12 présentations elles-mêmes. Il va y avoir d'autres 13 présentations de la communauté ce soir aussi. 14 1131 Alors, Radio-Canada: Un service 15 essentiel! Depuis sa création en 1936, la Société 16 Radio-Canada a permis aux Canadiens et aux Canadiennes 17 d'un océan à l'autre de mieux se comprendre. Par sa 18 programmation, tant à la télévision qu'à la radio 19 d'ailleurs, la Société Radio-Canada a joué un rôle dans 20 le développement du Canada, notamment en rapprochant 21 par le bais des ondes les différentes régions du pays. 22 Nul besoin en effet d'insister plus longuement sur les 23 bienfaits d'un réseau de diffusion national dans un 24 pays aussi vaste que le Canada. 25 1132 Pour les communautés francophones de StenoTran 239 1 la Saskatchewan, la Société Radio-Canada a joué un rôle 2 de développement. Elle a contribué à unir les 3 francophones du nord et du sud. Nous avons une grande 4 province ici en Saskatchewan et nos communautés sont 5 éparpillées à travers la province. Elle a contribué à 6 développer un sentiment d'appartenance et de fierté 7 collective parmi les Fransaskois. Nul doute que sa 8 disparition causerait un tort immense aux Fransaskois. 9 Les Fransaskois ce sont des francophones d'expression 10 française en Saskatchewan. 11 1133 À l'aube d'un nouveau millénaire, il 12 importe en effet d'assurer durablement une présence 13 fransaskoise sur les ondes de la radio et de la 14 télévision de Radio-Canada. On ne sait que trop bien 15 l'importance que revêt la radio et la télévision dans 16 la vie quotidienne des gens, en particulier chez les 17 jeunes, d'où l'importance d'avoir une chaîne 18 francophone solide et qui reflète les besoins de la 19 communauté. 20 1134 En ce sens, on ne peut qu'appuyer 21 également l'arrivée du Réseau TVA à l'échelle nationale 22 puisque cela représente pour nous une chaîne française 23 supplémentaire dans un environnement médiatique déjà 24 fortement anglophone. Malgré que la venue de TVA sera 25 essentiellement une fenêtre sur Montréal, les StenoTran 240 1 Fransaskois ne pourront tout de même qu'en profiter car 2 le Réseau TVA s'est engagé devant le CRTC à diffuser 3 des émissions traitant de la réalité des francophones 4 hors Québec. 5 1135 Il serait par ailleurs souhaitable 6 que la radio et la télévision de la Société 7 Radio-Canada parlent davantage des francophones aux 8 autres francophones du pays et encore plus des 9 francophones aux anglophones. Beaucoup de Québécois, 10 par exemple, ignorent jusqu'à l'existence-même des 11 francophones hors Québec. Une telle situation n'a rien 12 pour améliorer les rapports entre les francophones d'un 13 même pays. Il en va de même en ce qui concerne les 14 anglophones hors Québec, généralement peu au courant de 15 la situation des francophones. 16 1136 Axer la programmation sur la 17 Saskatchewan! La programmation radio et télévision de 18 la Société Radio-Canada doit être principalement 19 canadienne, refléter la globalité canadienne et rendre 20 compte de la diversité régionale du pays, tout en 21 contribuant activement à l'expression de la culture 22 canadienne. Dans les faits cependant, la réalité des 23 francophones en Saskatchewan est bien peu reflétée dans 24 les émissions diffusées sur les ondes de Radio-Canada. 25 1137 Comme nous le verrons d'ailleurs dans StenoTran 241 1 les lignes qui suivent, des progrès importants doivent 2 être faits, surtout en ce qui concerne la dimension 3 culturelle, et ce, tant à la radio qu'à la télévision 4 française car à l'heure actuelle, les Fransaskois 5 obtiennent une couverture à Radio-Canada comparable à 6 celle que reçoivent les Québécois sur les ondes de TV5, 7 c'est-à-dire très limitée. 8 1138 À la télévision française. La 9 programmation diffusée sur les ondes de la télévision 10 française en Saskatchewan est presqu'entièrement 11 québécoise. Or, bien que les émissions provenant du 12 Québec soient intéressantes à plus d'un titre, force 13 est de constater qu'elles retiennent peu l'intérêt des 14 Fransaskois, davantage concernés par ce qui se passe en 15 Saskatchewan. 16 1139 Certes, il y a déjà quelques 17 émissions consacrées aux Fransaskois et aux 18 francophones de l'ouest, comme, pour exemple, "Clan 19 destin" et "Sur la même longueur d'ondes". Mais cela 20 demeure insuffisant. À titre d'exemple, les 21 Fransaskois n'ont accès qu'à une demi-heure de 22 nouvelles par jour via "Saskatchewan Ce Soir". 23 1140 Il serait intéressant que la durée de 24 "Saskatchewan Ce Soir" soit augmentée à une heure 25 complète, de façon à inclure une section magazine. StenoTran 242 1 Nous aimerions aussi que davantage de nouvelles de la 2 Saskatchewan soient diffusées à l'échelle national sur 3 la première chaîne et non seulement sur le Réseau de 4 l'information (RDI), comme c'est le cas présentement. 5 1141 De façon générale, il est impératif 6 d'accroître la production d'émissions réalisées ici en 7 Saskatchewan. À cet égard, nous proposons la 8 réalisation d'une série diffusée sur le réseau national 9 et qui relaterait la réalité quotidienne des 10 francophones vivant en situation minoritaire. Une 11 telle série permettrait de renforcer le sentiment 12 d'appartenance des Fransaskois en plus de montrer aux 13 francophones des autres provinces, surtout du Québec, 14 comment vivent les francophones de l'ouest canadien. 15 1142 Conscient toutefois que la production 16 d'émissions ou de séries peut représenter des coûts 17 importants pour la Société Radio-Canada, des 18 partenariats avec le secteur privé ou avec des 19 producteurs locaux pourraient être envisagés pour 20 réduire les coûts. Des fonds sont en outre disponibles 21 à Téléfilm Canada via le Fonds canadien de télévision 22 pour permettre à des producteurs francophones de la 23 Saskatchewan de mettre sur pied des projets de séries. 24 De tels projets auraient également pour effet 25 d'encourager les artistes locaux, souvent contraints de StenoTran 243 1 s'expatrier au Québec pour être en mesure de pratiquer 2 leurs métiers en français. 3 1143 Une autre solution envisageable 4 consisterait à accroître la présence des francophones 5 de la Saskatchewan à l'intérieur des émissions 6 existantes, comme c'est le cas actuellement dans 7 l'émission "La Semaine verte". En plus d'être moins 8 onéreuse, cette façon de procéder a le grand avantage 9 de profiter de la visibilité et de la notoriété des 10 émissions existantes. Il faut en somme augmenter le 11 nombre d'heures de production locale, en particulier 12 dans le domaine culturel, de même que la présence des 13 Fransaskois sur les émissions du réseau national déjà 14 existantes. 15 1144 Maintenant, la radio française. La 16 programmation diffusée sur les ondes de la radio CBKF 17 Saskatchewan est fort appréciée par les Fransaskois. 18 Les émissions comme "CBKF Bonjour", animé par François 19 Beauregard, et "Jour de plaine", animé par Francis 20 Marchildon sont parmi celles qui sont les plus 21 écoutées. Nous apprécions en outre grandement le fait 22 d'être maintenant en mesure d'entendre la radio en 23 Saskatchewan sept jours sur sept. Mais ces efforts 24 pour accroître le nombre d'heures de production locale 25 ne doivent pas s'arrêter là. Nous aimerions qu'il y StenoTran 244 1 ait encore plus d'émissions produites en Saskatchewan 2 dans les années à venir, à l'exemple de celle produite 3 en direct de Zenon Park en décembre dernier pour 4 souligner la fête de Noël. 5 1145 Les efforts de la radio française de 6 Radio-Canada visant à appuyer le développement des 7 radios communautaires sont aussi très estimés, en 8 particulier ici en Saskatchewan où les radios 9 communautaires en sont à leurs premiers pas. Cela est 10 d'autant plus important d'appuyer les radios 11 communautaires que ces dernières ont un impact majeur 12 sur l'écoute des médias francophones en milieu 13 minoritaire. Le soutien de Radio-Canada en ce domaine 14 est en quelque sorte une avenue importante qui compense 15 un peu l'insuffisance des ressources financières des 16 radios communautaires. 17 1146 Maintenant, pour passer aux chaînes 18 spécialisées. Le développement phénoménal des chaînes 19 spécialisées n'est pas sans affecter les chaînes 20 traditionnelles en raison notamment de la fragmentation 21 de l'auditoire. Nul besoin en effet d'insister 22 longuement sur l'impact négatif que cela engendre au 23 niveau des revenus publicitaires des chaînes 24 traditionnelles, de sorte que pour protéger ses 25 revenus, la Société Radio-Canada n'a d'autre choix que StenoTran 245 1 de créer elle-même ses propres chaînes spécialisées. 2 1147 Mais l'arrivée des chaînes 3 spécialisées n'a pas que des effets négatifs. Elles 4 offrent en effet beaucoup plus de flexibilité dans la 5 programmation que les chaînes traditionnelles en plus 6 d'élargir considérablement l'éventail d'émissions. 7 1148 Pour les Fransaskois, le RDI est 8 particulièrement apprécié puisqu'il agit un peu comme 9 une fenêtre francophone sur l'ensemble du Canada. Le 10 RDI offre en effet aux Canadiens de l'est du pays 11 beaucoup plus de nouvelles sur ce qui se passe dans 12 l'ouest que la chaîne traditionnelle de Radio-Canada et 13 vice-versa. En ce sens, il s'agit-là d'un service tout 14 aussi essentiel que la radio et la télévision française 15 de Radio-Canada. Mais voilà, le RDI n'est pas 16 accessible partout en Saskatchewan. 17 1149 Nous aimerions donc que le signal du 18 RDI soit étendu à toutes les communautés francophones 19 de la Saskatchewan dans un avenir rapproché et qu'il 20 soit même à diffusion obligatoire car, comme nous 21 l'avons souligné précédemment, une chaîne francophone 22 diffusée de façon obligatoire représente plus de choix 23 pour les francophones. 24 1150 Maintenant pour passer à la nécessité 25 d'un financement stable pour la Société Radio-Canada. StenoTran 246 1 Les compressions budgétaires des dernières années ont 2 fait mal à Radio-Canada. En effet, les crédits 3 parlementaires d'exploitation de la Société 4 Radio-Canada ont diminué de 918,2 millions de dollars 5 en 1995-1996 à 759,7 millions de dollars en 1997-1998, 6 passant ainsi sous la barre de 800 millions de dollars. 7 Nous avons des tables à l'appui et la source de ces 8 chiffres-là c'est le Rapport annuel de Radio-Canada. 9 1151 Certes, l'introduction de la 10 publicité dans un certain nombre d'émissions, tels que 11 "Le Téléjournal" par exemple, a permis de réduire 12 quelque peu l'effet des compressions. Mais les revenus 13 de publicité ne peuvent seuls réussir à combler les 14 besoins financiers de la Société Radio-Canada 15 puisqu'ils sont beaucoup moins stables que les crédits 16 parlementaires à cause de la forte concurrence. 17 1152 Il ne faut pas oublier en outre que 18 la Société Radio-Canada est un service public 19 appartenant à tous les Canadiens et non une société 20 commerciale comme le sont la très grande majorité des 21 diffuseurs. Le seul diffuseur public pan-canadien doit 22 être en mesure de remplir la mission pour laquelle il a 23 été mis sur pied, soit celle d'aider les Canadiens et 24 les Canadiennes à mieux comprendre et à apprécier le 25 Canada. StenoTran 247 1 1153 Voilà pourquoi nous appuyons les 2 revendications de la Société Radio-Canada visant à 3 obtenir un financement stable et pluriannuel car, pour 4 répondre adéquatement aux besoins des collectivités 5 canadiennes, il importe en effet que le réseau radio et 6 télévision de la Société Radio-Canada soit doté d'un 7 financement solide et stable pour plusieurs années. 8 1154 Mais au-delà des ressources 9 financières, il y a les ressources humaines. Or, comme 10 le démontre le tableau suivant, les effectifs de la 11 Société Radio-Canada ont diminué au total de 7,6 pour 12 cent depuis 1997. Une telle situation n'est pas sans 13 inquiéter car, pour offrir une programmation 14 diversifiée et de qualité, il importe d'avoir un 15 personnel qualifié et surtout en nombre suffisant. 16 D'autres compressions de personnel risqueraient de 17 mettre en péril la réalisation du mandat de la Société 18 Radio-Canada. Nous avons aussi un tableau qui démontre 19 ces chiffres-là et notre mémoire est disponible après 20 la présentation aussi. 21 1155 Nous désirons tout de même saluer les 22 efforts de la Société Radio-Canada visant à recruter et 23 à former de jeunes stagiaires provenant des régions 24 minoritaires. Il va sans dire également que nous 25 aimerions voir et entendre beaucoup plus d'animateurs StenoTran 248 1 du milieu, à l'exemple de Francis Marchildon sur les 2 ondes de CBKF Saskatchewan. De telles initiatives ne 3 peuvent en effet que renforcer la fierté et le 4 sentiment d'appartenance des Fransaskois. À ce sujet, 5 nous désirons pareillement applaudir l'implication de 6 Radio-Canada dans les activités communautaires de la 7 communauté fransaskoise. Il s'agit-là d'un apport 8 primordial qui n'est pas à dédaigner. 9 1156 En conclusion, la télévision et la 10 radio de la Société Radio-Canada en Saskatchewan ont un 11 rôle primordial dans la sauvegarde, l'épanouissement et 12 le développement de la communauté fransaskoise. Il va 13 sans dire que la disparition ou même la réduction des 14 services à la télévision ou à la radio aurait des 15 effets néfastes pour la communauté fransaskoise aux 16 prises, faut-il le rappeler, avec un taux 17 d'assimilation élevé. En ce sens donc, les services de 18 la Société Radio-Canada en Saskatchewan doivent être 19 maintenus et même étendus davantage. 20 1157 Toutefois, comme nous l'avons 21 souligné dans les pages qui précèdent, la programmation 22 de la Société Radio-Canada, tant à la télévision qu'à 23 la radio, devrait refléter davantage la réalité des 24 Fransaskois. Il serait en outre opportun d'accroître 25 le nombre d'heures de production réalisées en StenoTran 249 1 Saskatchewan car, si la Société Radio-Canada espère 2 faire connaître aux Québécois la réalité des 3 Fransaskois comme l'exige son mandat, il n'y a pas 4 d'autre façon que celle de produire ici des émissions 5 qui seront diffusées sur le réseau national. 6 1158 Nous avons aussi à l'annexe de notre 7 présentation des exemples d'activités communautaires 8 dans lesquelles les membres de la Société Radio-Canada 9 s'impliquent dans leur communauté. Alors, la Société 10 Radio-Canada en Saskatchewan fait partie de la 11 communauté. C'est une composante très, très importante 12 et appréciée. 13 1159 Cela met fin à notre présentation. 14 Merci beaucoup pour votre attention. 15 1160 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci. 16 1161 Mr. Secretary. 17 1162 Perhaps we will take a 10-minute 18 break and then we will have the next people come up. 19 1163 Thank you. 20 --- Recess / Pause 21 1164 LA PRÉSIDENTE: On recommence. We 22 will start again if everybody is here. 23 1165 Mr. Secretary. 24 1166 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, 25 Commissioner Cram. StenoTran 250 1 1167 I will go down the list here for the 2 next presenters. 3 1168 Could I have you please raise your 4 hand or indicate yourself, your presence to the 5 Commission so I will know who is and who isn't here, 6 please. 7 1169 Claudia Poirier, Claire 8 Bélanger-Parker; Armand Roy; Stephen Kenny; 9 Jim Elliott, please come forward; Dr. Bromley, 10 Mrs. Bromley; Doug McKay; Ken Chikle; Elmer Hildebrand, 11 if you could please come forward; Dr. Edward Lewis, 12 again, please; Darcy McKenzie; Alex Zypchyn, please 13 come forward, thank you; and Cathy Currey. 14 1952 15 1170 Okay. We will start, please, with 16 Claudia Poirier. 17 1171 I would like to remind everybody, 18 please, to respect the 10-minute limit. 19 1172 Thank you. 20 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 21 1173 MME POIRIER: Bonsoir. Notre 22 présentation va être en français ce soir si ça va. 23 1174 Alors, notre objectif ce soir c'est 24 de faire comprendre l'importance pour la communauté 25 canadienne-française vivant en milieu minoritaire en StenoTran 251 1 Saskatchewan, les Fransaskois et les Fransaskoises, que 2 Radio-Canada voit son mandat reconfirmé pour lui 3 permettre de poursuivre sa mission, d'être une 4 ressource publique qui appartient à tous les Canadiens 5 et Canadiennes. 6 1175 Ce service français et anglais vise à 7 informer, à enrichir et à divertir. Radio-Canada 8 alimente la croissance nationale collective en 9 célébrant la diversité culturelle et régionale du 10 Canada, en tissant des liens entre les diverses 11 collectivités de langues officielles et en incitant les 12 citoyens et citoyennes à participer activement à la vie 13 du pays. Radio-Canada crée, livre et présente des 14 émissions de haut calibre et se distingue des autres et 15 diffuse les meilleures productions étrangères issues 16 des quatre coins du monde. 17 1176 La Division scolaire francophone est 18 responsable de la gestion de douze écoles francophones 19 dispersées à la grandeur de la province. Dans sa 20 situation minoritaire en Saskatchewan, parmi les défis 21 qu'elle doit relever pour bien répondre aux besoins des 22 élèves, il y a l'offre d'occasions d'entendre et de 23 parler en français sur une base quotidienne, l'offre 24 d'un carrefour qui permet aux élèves, sur une base 25 régulière, d'échanger en français et de se connaître StenoTran 252 1 sans se déplacer d'une communauté à l'autre, un accès 2 en français à l'actualité provinciale, nationale et 3 internationale. 4 1177 De par son mandat public, 5 Radio-Canada est l'organisme de choix pour répondre à 6 ces besoins. En nous référant aux champs d'action 7 principaux de la mission de la Société Radio-Canada, la 8 Division scolaire francophone souhaite vous faire 9 connaître les raisons pourquoi Radio-Canada est 10 nécessaire à l'éducation de notre jeunesse ainsi qu'au 11 développement et à l'épanouissement de la communauté 12 fransaskoise vivant en milieu minoritaire. 13 1178 Premier point: Informer, enrichir et 14 divertir. Avec la technologie qui prend une place 15 prépondérante dans la vie de tous les jours, son 16 intégration dans nos systèmes scolaires n'est plus un 17 luxe mais bel et bien une nécessité. Que ce soit un 18 accès à l'actualité, à l'information ou un forum 19 d'échanges publiques pan-canadien en Saskatchewan, le 20 service public de la radio et de la télévision de la 21 Société Radio-Canada est notre seule planche de salut. 22 Aucune radio ou télévision privée, y inclut la radio 23 communautaire, sont en mesure de répondre à nos droits 24 et à nos besoins, encore moins à nos attentes. 25 1179 Deuxième point: Alimenter la StenoTran 253 1 conscience nationale collective en célébrant la 2 diversité culturelle et régionale du Canada. Les 3 Nations-Unies proclament le Canada comme étant un des 4 meilleurs pays dans lequel il fait bon vivre. Si nous 5 voulons garder cette cote d'honneur, deux réalités 6 démographiques doivent nous inciter à maintenir notre 7 ressource publique qu'est Radio-Canada/CBC. 8 1180 Premièrement, tout comme la 9 communauté fransaskoise doit se donner des 10 infrastructures uniques et spécifiques pour surmonter 11 la perte de sa langue et de sa culture à cause de sa 12 situation minoritaire en Saskatchewan, la même réalité 13 s'applique aux Canadiens et Canadiennes par rapport à 14 leur situation minoritaire en Amérique. 15 1181 Deuxièmement, la géographie du pays 16 crée chez nos populations provinciales une tendance à 17 se balkaniser, ce qui nous apporte à oublier que la 18 force et la richesse du Canada est le résultat de sa 19 diversité et du respect de cette diversité. Dans notre 20 monde de technologie et de communication mondiale, les 21 citoyens canadiens seraient perdants si les 22 gouvernements et le CRTC permettaient la disparition de 23 Radio-Canada et de la CBC. 24 1182 Selon la Division scolaire 25 francophone, à l'arrivée du 21e siècle, ce n'est pas StenoTran 254 1 une réduction des services de notre ressource publique 2 de diffusion radiophonique et de télévision qu'il nous 3 faut, mais bien au contraire, c'est une augmentation de 4 services tels la radio et la télévision, RDI, RDH, RDE, 5 et RDC. De choisir le contraire ce n'est pas seulement 6 à la survie de la culture francophone à laquelle il 7 faut dire adieu c'est à la culture canadienne... un 8 point, c'est tout. 9 1183 Troisième point: Tisser les liens 10 entre les diverses collectivités de langues 11 officielles. Cet élément de la mission de la Société 12 démontre encore une fois l'aspect indispensable de la 13 ressource publique qu'est Radio-Canada. 14 1184 Il demeure crucial qu'en tant que 15 Société spécifique canadienne nous sommes les seuls en 16 mesure de comprendre l'importance de ce mandat qui 17 représente deux volets: premièrement, celui d'assurer 18 au regroupement de langues officielles vivant en 19 situation minoritaire de bénéficier d'un service de 20 communication pan-canadien dans leur langue; 21 deuxièmement, notre Société d'état doit promouvoir 22 l'unité nationale en fournissant des forums 23 d'information sociale, communautaire et publique pour 24 permettre aux citoyens et citoyennes d'être informés, 25 de dialoguer et de se questionner. C'est le moyen par StenoTran 255 1 excellence d'assurer que nos diversités et nos 2 priorités régionales soient connues et comprises a mare 3 usque ad mare. 4 1185 Quatrième point: Inciter les 5 citoyens et citoyennes à participer activement à la vie 6 du pays. Pour nous en Saskatchewan cet élément du 7 mandat est bien exécuté dans le cadre de la 8 collaboration de partenariats et de parrainage de 9 projets de développement communautaire tels le 10 Francothon, le Gala fransaskois, d'émissions 11 communautaires, des ateliers techniques pour nos 12 élèves, d'expositions d'arts et de photographie, de La 13 grande dictée fransaskoise, et j'en passe. 14 1186 Cinquième et dernier point: Créer, 15 livrer et présenter des émissions de haut calibre. Cet 16 élément de la mission de la SRC présente des moyens qui 17 lui permettent de continuer à offrir à la communauté 18 fransaskoise, qui inclut les écoles de la Division 19 scolaire fransaskoise, des émissions qui répondent à 20 nos attentes et à nos besoins. Nous pensons à des 21 émissions nationales telles "Le Téléjournal", "Le 22 Point", des documentaires scientifiques, historiques et 23 culturels, RDI, "La Semaine verte", "Second regard", 24 "Découverte", et caetera. 25 1187 En deuxième lieu, il a toute la StenoTran 256 1 programmation provinciale et régionale qui est taillée 2 sur mesure pour nous et souvent avec nous. 3 Quelques-unes de ces productions sont à la télévision: 4 le "Ce Soir", le "Clan destin", "Les petites annonces", 5 "Le reflet des régions", et le projet "Incognito". À 6 la radio, les bulletins de nouvelles, l'émission 7 "L'Ouest Aujourd'hui", "Les contes du monde", "Les 8 petits plaisirs", "Les contes de Noël", "Le grand 9 défi", le "Sept Douze"(ph), et j'en passe. 10 1188 Comme conclusion et en très peu de 11 mots, la Division scolaire francophone a besoin de 12 Radio-Canada pour atteindre ses buts éducatifs dans le 13 21e siècle. Nous comptons sur Radio-Canada non 14 seulement pour maintenir sa programmation régionale 15 actuelle mais de l'intensifier, autant par rapport à la 16 télévision qu'à la radio. Il va donc sans dire que 17 nous exhortons le CRTC de lui reconnaître le mandat de 18 le faire ainsi que lui en donner la responsabilité. 19 1189 Merci. 20 1190 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, 21 Madame Poirier. 22 1191 Mr. Secretary. 23 2006 24 1192 MR. LAHAY: Thank you. 25 1193 Claire Bélanger-Parker, please. StenoTran 257 1 1194 M. BILODEAU: Point d'ordre, Madame 2 la Présidente. Nous avons d'autres engagements ce 3 soir. Est-ce permis de quitter la table? 4 1195 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Oui. 5 1196 M. BILODEAU: Merci beaucoup. 6 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 7 --- Off microphone / Sans microphone 8 1197 MME BÉLANGER-PARKER: ... of the 9 Association canadienne française de Regina. I welcome 10 anyone who wishes to listen to this presentation to use 11 the interpretation receiver. Thank you. 12 1198 Nous désirons remercier les membres 13 du CRTC de nous offrir l'opportunité d'exprimer notre 14 opinion au sujet des services de Radio-Canada en 15 Saskatchewan. 16 1199 L'Association canadienne française de 17 Regina, qui a pour mission de développer et de 18 promouvoir la langue française de Regina, désire 19 aujourd'hui exprimer son sentiment d'appartenance à 20 Radio-Canada. 21 1200 La radio de Radio-Canada c'est une 22 voix, une écoute pour notre communauté! Depuis 23 l'arrivée de la radio française de Radio-Canada en 24 Saskatchewan, L'Association canadienne française de 25 Regina a grandement bénéficié de ses services. La StenoTran 258 1 radio française contribue énormément au développement 2 de la communauté à travers ses reportages et ses 3 émissions spéciales. 4 1201 Certaines émissions sont à caractère 5 très communautaire, faites par des gens d'ici pour des 6 gens d'ici. Ces dernières années, nous avons vu une 7 augmentation des heures de diffusion et c'est au grand 8 plaisir du public. Notre communauté a soif d'une plus 9 grande représentation sur les ondes de Radio-Canada, 10 que ce soit à la radio ou à la télévision. 11 1202 Cette radio a grandement contribué et 12 continue de contribuer à l'ensemble des communautés 13 puisqu'elle nous permet de s'entendre, de se promouvoir 14 et de s'épanouir. Cette radio est à la fois un outil 15 pour nos jeunes et nos aînés et rejoint les Fransaskois 16 et les Fransaskoises dans leur foyer. La radio de 17 Radio-Canada remplit son mandat chez nous. Il y a des 18 moments où elle fait tellement partie de notre 19 quotidien que nous prenons très à coeur leur couverture 20 médiatique, surtout si elle ne nous donne pas l'image 21 que nous espérions refléter. 22 1203 Étant le seul service radiophonique 23 francophone en Saskatchewan, elle est un service 24 essentiel à notre survie, à notre épanouissement et à 25 notre développement. Elle est un outil de francisation StenoTran 259 1 qui touche tous les membres de notre communauté. La 2 nouvelle technologie nous permet maintenant d'accéder à 3 certaines émissions sur Internet. Pour les Fransaskois 4 et les Fransaskoises bien branchés, c'est une autre 5 ressource essentielle à notre survie à Regina en 6 Saskatchewan. 7 1204 Les concours et les émissions 8 permettent à plusieurs auteurs, compositeurs, écrivains 9 et musiciens de faire connaître leurs oeuvres. Les 10 artistes visuels de Regina travaillent étroitement avec 11 la Société Radio-Canada sur des projets comme 12 l'Opération Coeur au ventre, au bénéfice des banques 13 alimentaires de Regina et Saskatoon. Les auteurs 14 compositeurs s'unissent à Radio-Canada pour la réussite 15 du Gala de la chanson fransaskoise. Et ce ne sont que 16 quelques exemples des contributions de Radio-Canada. 17 1205 La télévision de Radio-Canada c'est 18 un regard sur la francophonie canadienne. D'une part, 19 la première chaîne de Radio-Canada a encore beaucoup de 20 chemin à faire pour bien refléter la présence des 21 Fransaskois et des Fransaskoises de Regina. Bien sûr, 22 les équipes de Regina contribuent aux émissions 23 nationales et internationales mais il reste du travail 24 à faire. Les dirigeants de la maison mère de 25 Radio-Canada ont encore des devoirs à faire et le StenoTran 260 1 gouvernement canadien se doit de maintenir et même 2 d'augmenter le financement de notre télévision 3 publique. À Regina, nous jouissons d'une couverture 4 quotidienne des événements qui se passent chez nous, 5 mais c'est bien peu pour une télévision qui se dit le 6 reflet de notre communauté. 7 1206 Afin de bien représenter la 8 communauté fransaskoise, le financement doit être 9 adéquat. Les distances énormes entre les communautés 10 et les compressions budgétaires ne font que réduire la 11 qualité à laquelle nous avons été habitué. La première 12 chaîne de Radio-Canada a perdu son image glorifiante du 13 passé, mais il ne faut pas pour autant l'abandonner. 14 Il faut au contraire l'enrichir d'une couverture 15 nationale où toutes les communautés, québécoises et 16 canadiennes s'y retrouvent. 17 1207 Avec toutes les connaissances de 18 Radio-Canada en Saskatchewan, il serait déplorable de 19 voir notre télévision nationale disparaître. Nous 20 sommes à un point tournant dans l'histoire puisque les 21 communications n'ont plus de barrières. Le monde 22 entier se regarde. 23 1208 D'autre part, l'avènement de RDI a 24 presque révolutionné la vision du Québec envers notre 25 communauté. À maintes et maintes reprises, nous avons StenoTran 261 1 accueilli des Québécois et des Québécoises de passe qui 2 regardaient assidûment les émissions qui touchent les 3 communautés hors Québec, soit "L'Accent francophone", 4 "L'Ouest en direct" et bien d'autres. Grâce à ces 5 émissions, Regina bénéficie aujourd'hui d'une 6 visibilité qui offre des opportunités de développement 7 économique jamais exploitées auparavant. 8 1209 La communauté artistique de Regina 9 bénéficie énormément de la présence de la télévision 10 française. Le Gala de la chanson fransaskoise, la Fête 11 fransaskoise, le Coup de coeur francophone, le Pavillon 12 francophone de Mosaic, sont des manifestations 13 culturelles qui se voient propulseés sur les ondes de 14 RDI, une visibilité extraordinaire pour les artistes 15 francophones de Regina. 16 1210 C'est aussi avec beaucoup 17 d'enthousiasme que nous attendons la venue des chaînes 18 spécialisées comme RDA, le Réseau des Arts, RDE, le 19 Réseau de l'Économie, et RDH, le Réseau de l'Histoire. 20 Nous doutons un peu de la bonne volonté de notre 21 câblodistributeur de mettre ces réseaux à notre 22 disposition puisque même RDI, le Réseau de 23 l'Information, n'est pas accessible à tous. 24 1211 Plusieurs pressions ont été faites 25 auprès de notre câblodistributeur afin d'avoir accès StenoTran 262 1 aux services de RDI sur le service de base. Nos 2 plaintes sont tombées dans l'oreille d'un sourd. RDI 3 se retrouve dans un forfait avec les chaînes Treehouse, 4 CNBC et PBS Seattle, soit trois chaînes américaines qui 5 n'ont rien à voir avec les besoins des communautés 6 francophones. 7 1212 Nous implorons le CRTC de changer ses 8 règlements en ce qui a trait à RDI. L'Association 9 canadienne française de Regina vous demande d'exiger 10 que RDI soit disponible sur le service de base. C'est 11 une nécessité chez nous. 12 1213 En terminant, il faut toujours se 13 rappeler que la radio et la télévision française jouent 14 un rôle essentiel dans le développement et 15 l'épanouissement de notre communauté. Soyez à l'écoute 16 des besoins des communautés francophones hors Québec. 17 1214 Nous sommes heureux que vous ayez 18 accordé à TVA un accès au service de base. Toutefois, 19 nous avons certaines réserves à ce que TVA pourra 20 offrir comme couverture médiatique des événements 21 francophones hors Québec. RDI fait déjà un excellent 22 travail. Pourquoi ne pas lui accorder aussi cette 23 licence? 24 1215 Il faut continuer d'augmenter les 25 productions locales afin de mieux refléter notre StenoTran 263 1 milieu. Radio-Canada fait partie du quotidien des 2 francophones de Regina depuis le début du siècle. Sans 3 sa présence, nous oublierons tout doucement ce qui est 4 l'essence de notre identité et nous serons tout 5 doucement oubliés par les six millions sept cents mille 6 francophones qui font la richesse de notre pays. 7 1216 Merci. 8 1217 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, 9 Madame Bélanger-Parker. 10 1218 Mr. Secretary. 11 2013 12 1219 MR. LAHAY: Thank you. 13 1220 Armand Roy, please. 14 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 15 1221 MR. ROY: Thank you. 16 1222 First of all, I just wanted to make a 17 comment that the acting President of our local was 18 supposed to join me tonight and wasn't able to because 19 of the incidences in the labour dispute, so I will be 20 making this presentation on my own. 21 1223 Who we are is the communications, 22 energy and paperworkers who are on strike at the CBC at 23 the moment in Regina. We represent the technicians and 24 the designers at the CBC. 25 1224 We adamantly say that we are in StenoTran 264 1 favour of renewing the CBC's licence. It is our intent 2 in this presentation to alert the CRTC to our concerns 3 for the future of public broadcasting in Canada. We 4 feel very strongly that the CBC has lost the intent of 5 its mandate and that its licence renewal should be 6 based upon delivery of programming to all Canadians 7 about all Canadians. 8 1225 Throughout the last 15 years the CBC 9 has suffered from continuous, unrelenting cuts. The 10 staff and budget have been reduced by more than half 11 since 1985. Despite this, the corporation has 12 continued to attempt to provide award-winning, 13 internationally acclaimed, creative programming to 14 Canadians. Attempting to run French and English radio, 15 French and English television, RDI, CBC Newsworld, as 16 well as CBC North is no small task when faced with 17 budget restrictions that have been imposed. 18 1226 The unions have fought hard to make 19 Canadians aware of the plight of CBC. We have 20 co-operated with CBC management to reach agreements 21 which would assist the corporation during its financial 22 difficulties because of our belief in the value of 23 public broadcasting. 24 1227 I can cite, for example, that I was 25 in the last round of negotiations and we made many StenoTran 265 1 concessions in order to help CBC get through its 2 turmoil. 3 1228 In our view, public broadcasting is 4 an essential element of the fabric of Canada. We have 5 seen the private media concentrated into larger and 6 larger media empires. These monopolies tend to build 7 their empires on American-based programming schedules 8 with only a minimum of legislated and monitored 9 Canadian content. The CBC offers a truly Canadian 10 alternative to the profit-making motives of private 11 broadcasters, all the while presenting programs which 12 have achieved numerous awards and still maintain a 13 credible audience share despite the multi-channel 14 universe. 15 1229 But now we find the CBC is at a very 16 delicate crossroad. According to the CBC and the 17 federal government, stable funding has now been 18 established. The CBC is claiming that further cuts are 19 no longer an issue. Our strike is based on that 20 belief. Our members have taken the brunt of the 21 downsizing efforts and have accepted wage settlements 22 that have virtually amounted to reductions in income. 23 Today we are asking for a reasonable settlement 24 reflecting the industry standards of the talent and 25 high skills we possess. StenoTran 266 1 1230 Our concern is the CBC and the 2 federal government may use recent events to justify 3 reductions in service to Canadians. We have felt 4 immense pressure upon regional broadcasting. In 5 Regina, we once produced numerous local and regional 6 programs which were broadcast across Saskatchewan and 7 in many cases across Canada. CBC English television in 8 Saskatchewan now produces approximately eight hours of 9 programming a week, all of which is news and current 10 affairs. 11 1231 French regional television 12 broadcasting does even less. 13 1232 Even in radio, the amount of locally 14 produced programs have been reduced dramatically. 15 1233 In addition, CBC Saskatchewan is no 16 longer a separate region. It is now part of the 17 prairie region and administered in Winnipeg. 18 1234 The CBC has been a great contributor 19 to the community of Canada by providing a voice of 20 Canadians, by Canadians, to Canadians. The 21 contributions made by the regions have been invaluable 22 in allowing CBC to meet its mandate. Today this has 23 been severely injured. Our strike is not only about 24 money and job security, but it is about saving the CBC 25 from itself. If the CBC sees fit to eliminate regional StenoTran 267 1 broadcasting, we feel it won't be long before the 2 public broadcaster will lose its relevance and its very 3 existence. The pressure to privatize the CBC has never 4 been greater. 5 1235 If CBC is to continue to meet its 6 objectives and its mandate, the CRTC must issue its 7 licence ensuring the continuation and expansion of 8 regional broadcasting. How else are Canadians going to 9 learn about each other? Communication is the catalyst 10 to nation building. CBC is the recognized communicator 11 for the voice of all Canadians. 12 1236 We are afraid the CBC may become a 13 centralist broadcaster with all programming being 14 generated at the Toronto or Montreal broadcast centres. 15 Already all the decision making is relegated to the 16 Toronto, Montreal, Windsor corridor. This certainly 17 does not reflect the rest of Canada. We have seen too 18 many initiatives at the CBC which have led us to 19 believe our views are not without substance. 20 1237 In 1985 Midday was a regional program 21 produced locally with local content. Today it is a 22 nationally produced program with no regional content. 23 In 1990, besides the local news, Switchback and Country 24 West were among many of the locally produced programs. 25 Today we produce only regional news. StenoTran 268 1 1238 Even that is at risk. The launch of 2 the new regionally broadcast supper hour news program 3 was filled with work that was once done locally. The 4 logo for the program was designed in Vancouver. The 5 set was designed and built in Toronto. On top of that, 6 many of the functions which made local CBC productions 7 unique to Saskatchewan have been reduced or eliminated. 8 1239 Often the argument is made that the 9 money once slated to the CBC to produce arts and drama 10 could have been put to better use by directing it to 11 independent producers for co-productions. In fact, 12 although some of the effects of this have been very 13 positive, the affect on CBC regional facilities has 14 been very detrimental. 15 1240 The Broadcast Centre in Regina has 16 now less activity than CBC did when it worked out of 17 facilities in Moose Jaw in 1975. In the design 18 department alone, the employees have been reduced from 19 a complement of eight in 1983 to one today. Much of 20 the state-of-the-art equipment lies idle. 21 1241 Several private and public interests 22 in Saskatchewan have shown to us their concern that the 23 studios in Regina may end up slated for some other 24 federal government departments. This would be a 25 travesty. Built in 1983, the Regina Broadcast Centre StenoTran 269 1 is CBC's most modern regional facility. 2 1242 As participants in the community, we 3 are often faced with questions of our presence at news 4 and community events. Local politicians, labour 5 groups, and community and sports organizations 6 regularly complain or comment on the lack of CBC 7 presence at important events. This is a far cry from 8 the days when the public complained about too many CBC 9 staff. 10 1243 There is little the CRTC can do to 11 increase funding to the CBC, as that is the role of 12 government. But in your capacity as the regulator and 13 administrator of broadcasting licences, you can direct 14 the CBC to protect those interests that best serve 15 Canadians. We firmly believe that the protection and 16 re-establishment of a strong regional CBC will achieve 17 the mandate of both the CBC and the expectations of 18 Canadians. 19 1244 In summary, we believe in public 20 broadcasting and, in particular, in the CBC. We 21 believe the CBC should be a reflection of Canada's 22 diverse regions. Thirdly, any licence renewal should 23 be conditional upon the re-establishment of CBC's 24 regional and local contribution. 25 1245 Thank you for entertaining our StenoTran 270 1 presentation. We trust you will consider our points in 2 renewing the CBC's licence. 3 1246 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Roy. 4 1247 Mr. Secretary. 5 1248 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 6 2020 7 1249 Stephen Kenny. 8 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 9 1250 M. KENNY: Bonsoir, mesdames et 10 messieurs. Je m'appelle Steve Kenny et je suis 11 professeur d'histoire au Collège Campion de 12 l'Université de Regina. Dans la petite communauté 13 d'historiens ici à Regina, j'enseigne des cours sur la 14 période entre la conquête et la Confédération ainsi que 15 des cours sur les rapports canado-américains et les 16 rapports entre Canadiens d'expression anglaise et 17 française. 18 1251 Je vais suivre une approche un peu 19 différente, plutôt personnelle. Je suis ici pour 20 soutenir le renouvellement de la licence de 21 Radio-Canada et CBC et naturellement pour louanger la 22 Société. 23 1252 En guise de préface et à titre 24 personnel, j'aimerais vous dire qu'avant de venir en 25 Saskatchewan il y a à peu près quinze ans, j'ai StenoTran 271 1 enseigné l'histoire du Canada à l'Université du Vermont 2 à Burlington, dans le département d'histoire là-bas. 3 C'était une expérience et un moment tournant dans ma 4 vie personnelle, et le contraste de ma situation alors 5 m'a frappé et me frappe toujours. 6 1253 Bien entendu, je pesais moins, 7 j'étais plus jeune, mes enfants étaient de l'âge de 8 l'école maternelle et la petite école, et là-bas, 60-70 9 kilomètres de la frontière du Québec et Vermont, une 10 heure et demie de la métropole montréalaise, il 11 n'existait pas la moindre possibilité de faire éduquer 12 mes enfants en français. Je ne pouvais même pas 13 acheter un journal d'expression française. 14 1254 Dans mes cours à Burlington, j'avais 15 des étudiants franco-américains de troisième et 16 quatrième génération qui avaient complètement perdu 17 leur francité, langue et culture. Plus qu'une fois, 18 les vieux, en nous entendant parler français, même dans 19 la rue des fois, s'arrêtaient pour parler à mes enfants 20 en nous expliquant que leurs propres petits-enfants ne 21 parlaient plus un mot de français, des fois avec des 22 larmes aux yeux. 23 1255 Ma femme et moi, vivant ce que les 24 sociologues caractérisent un mariage exogame, moi 25 anglophone, elle francophone, avons décidé d'insister StenoTran 272 1 sur le français à la maison. Pas de danger que nos 2 enfants allaient accaparer l'anglais aux États-Unis. 3 Par miracle, un de nos seuls soutiens, Radio-Canada, 4 était avec nous par le truchement du câble. Mes 5 enfants ont grandi avec "Bobino et Bobinette", "Belle 6 et Sébastien", "Passe-partout" et compagnie et j'en 7 suis fort reconnaissant. Il ne faut pas me demander si 8 je considère Radio-Canada comme primordial et essentiel 9 à la bonne santé de la communauté francophone à 10 l'extérieur du Québec. 11 1256 J'aimerais bien vous souligner que la 12 Société Radio-Canada est le seul et unique radio et 13 télédiffuseur voué à une programmation principalement 14 canadienne en anglais et en français à travers le pays. 15 Bien évidemment, là-dessus, je ne vous apprends rien si 16 ce n'est pas pour vous rappeler que d'autres 17 compagnies, d'autres chaînes ne sont pas engagées dans 18 cette même voie. Pire, elles ont résisté une 19 programmation canadienne, et sans entrer dans les 20 détails, toute personne qui parle français en 21 Saskatchewan et dans l'ouest canadien sait 22 l'obstination et le refus des chaînes privées et les 23 compagnies de câble d'augmenter ou d'améliorer leurs 24 services en français au-delà de leur obligation légale 25 et minimale. StenoTran 273 1 1257 J'ai été touché par la présentation 2 de l'intervenant avant moi, M. Roy, et je regrette 3 énormément que ces consultations que vous menez cette 4 semaine tombent dans un contexte particulièrement 5 difficile et critique pour la Société: grève de 6 techniciens, menace de grève de journalistes, 7 discussions hautement politiques de la présidence, 8 baisse des cotes d'écoute, démoralisation et des cadres 9 et du personnel suite à plusieurs années de 10 compressions budgétaires, de restructuration et de 11 diminution tout court. 12 1258 Beaucoup de gens, particulièrement 13 ceux qui sont hostiles à Radio-Canada et CBC, voient 14 peut-être le moment propice pour livrer le coup de 15 grâce. Bien évidemment, je ne suis pas parmi ces 16 gens-là. 17 1259 À mon avis, le défi de Radio-Canada 18 en tant que radio et télédiffuseur national est de 19 suivre un chemin équilibré entre la tradition et 20 l'innovation. Bien entendu, ceci est beaucoup plus 21 facile à dire que d'accomplir. Pourtant, je suis 22 hanté, et je dois le dire, outré, par ceux des deux 23 côtés de la frontière linguistique qui prétendent que 24 nous devons abandonner notre engagement et notre 25 soutien du français et de l'anglais dans le cadre de StenoTran 274 1 Radio-Canada. 2 1260 Je pense particulièrement à une 3 phrase il y a quelques années du romancier, Beauchemin 4 qui réfléchissait sur les communautés francophones à 5 l'extérieur du Québec comme étant... il les 6 caractérisait comme étant des cadavres toujours chauds. 7 1261 Aucun être n'est parfait. Aucune 8 institution. Radio-Canada non plus. Tandis que je 9 reconnais la tension naturelle entre les grands centres 10 de production et les marges, je regrette un peu le 11 manque d'attention pour les régions. Du côté des 12 régions, je regrette un peu la haute priorité donnée 13 dans les régions à couvrir que des régions. 14 J'aimerais, par exemple, personnellement, avoir accès 15 ici en Saskatchewan à la chaîne culturelle à la radio, 16 et ensuite. 17 1262 Le fait que nous parlons le français 18 à Regina en Saskatchewan, à Pointe-de-l'Église(ph) en 19 Nouvelle-Écosse, à Caraquet au Nouveau-Brunswick, à 20 Rivière Canard(ph) en Ontario et ainsi de suite, est dû 21 en grande partie au simple fait que nous avons accès à 22 toute cette communauté par l'intermédiaire de la 23 Société Radio-Canada et que la lutte et l'engagement 24 continuent. 25 1263 Je vous remercie. StenoTran 275 1 1264 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, 2 Monsieur Kenny. 3 1265 Mr. Secretary. 4 1266 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 5 2030 6 1267 Jim Elliott. 7 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 8 1268 MR. ELLIOTT: Madam Chairman, ladies 9 and gentlemen, Commissioner, before I make my 10 presentation, I will let you know that I do have a 11 written copy of at least the basics of it. I have done 12 some editing over the day, so bear with me. 13 1269 Before I make some suggestions around 14 different points or parts of the CBC radio and 15 television system, I would like to make a broad 16 statement. 17 1270 I think that CBC radio and television 18 is essentially the infrastructure that is keeping this 19 country together. To me and to a lot of people that I 20 have been talking to over the past few weeks, the CBC 21 is in fact the only place where we can get information 22 about ourselves, information about different parts of 23 the country and, in fact, information about the rest of 24 the world. 25 1271 This goes all the way through the StenoTran 276 1 after hours rebroadcasting of other national public 2 broadcasters such as Australia and South Africa, and 3 even into Britain and France and Germany, it goes from 4 that to our local news hours as well as into what I 5 would consider a mechanism for getting a regional voice 6 into the system, because it is very few places that you 7 run into shows like Cross Country Checkup where you can 8 in fact phone from anywhere in the country and put 9 forward your comments on a specific issue. 10 1272 CBC radio, in that sense, I look at 11 it as being the community centre of this country or 12 this community that we call Canada. Within that you 13 have a support structure. You have a system of rooms 14 or places where people can gather and talk. You also 15 have a chance for people to get to know each other, to 16 introduce themselves to other people and you are not 17 necessarily seen as being an outsider when you are in 18 that room or in that community centre. 19 1273 Now, since I'm still quite behind in 20 the sense of systems, I still have a radio that you 21 actually have to turn the dial to change the channels. 22 With that, in fact, I think, in a nutshell, it 23 encourages me just to leave it where it is, which is 24 CBC. I don't change it that often. 25 1274 I also, in some cases, fall asleep to StenoTran 277 1 the radio at night and in fact I have woken up at three 2 o'clock in the morning and listened to what is 3 happening in Germany for 15 to 20 minutes and then go 4 back to sleep. It's quite an interesting chance when 5 you get a chance to listen to some of the other 6 national broadcasters around the world. What we 7 typically think of is what's happening in various 8 countries on various problems, whether it is a war or 9 uprisings or economic things. Getting it from their 10 perspective I think has a value, and in that respect 11 the CBC is providing that same value, both to our own 12 residents but also probably to the world in the sense 13 of what we do as -- and when we broadcast our signals 14 around the world. 15 1275 I think the CBC is also critical when 16 we are trying to understand what is happening in 17 Saskatchewan because, again, there are very few radio 18 stations in this province that will broadcast things 19 that are happening all over the province. They will 20 take a certain amount of regional bias to it, but they 21 generally won't take much more than maybe what is 22 happening in Regina because it's a government city, 23 that type of thing, or maybe a university issue, or 24 something like that, or they may pick up Saskatoon and 25 Prince Albert forestry issues, but very few kind of StenoTran 278 1 take in the whole gamut of issues and programs around 2 the province. 3 1276 As I'm also I guess part of a growing 4 community in this country that doesn't have a lot of 5 access to a lot of resources, whether that's monetary 6 or other, I'm stuck with basically the four channels of 7 television in Regina, the two privates and two publics. 8 1277 Now, again, part of my interest in 9 the CBC is Canadian content, whether that is Canadian 10 broadcasting about what is going on in different areas 11 in the sense of a news broadcast, whether that's 12 Canadian stories such as what is happening in Big Bear 13 and some of the maritime ones and even some of the 14 northern ones like North of 60, also, the Canadian news 15 because, again, I like to know what is going on in this 16 country perhaps more than I do about what is going on 17 in the rest of the world. If I have that choice, I 18 clearly stay within the CBC. 19 1278 Now, I have put together about nine 20 points that I am going to run through as some 21 suggestions and some ideas around making some 22 modifications or looking at things a little bit 23 differently. 24 1279 In respect to the rebroadcasting of 25 The National, I think it would be a better approach StenoTran 279 1 to -- I think someone else had mentioned before 2 sandwiching the local stuff within the context of the 3 rebroadcast of The National. It's just as everybody is 4 generally getting older these days, the idea of trying 5 to stay up until 11:30, you know, or a quarter to 12:00 6 just to hear -- watch the news hour isn't going to 7 happen, so you are likely then to go to other local 8 broadcasters such as Global. They broadcast at 10:30, 9 so you can get your local news well beyond that and 10 people will be going to bed much earlier than that. 11 1280 So even to that extent I would almost 12 say put the News Magazine after the local news as well. 13 That again may encourage more interest in our local 14 broadcasting. 15 1281 I think in some aspects there is too 16 much priority put on professional sports. I hazard a 17 guess that if anybody doesn't want to watch television 18 on Saturday night, you know, most people are either 19 turning the TV off or they are unfortunately maybe 20 having to wander through the hockey to find out when 21 the news is because sometimes they put it in 22 intermission, sometimes they will put it at the end of 23 a game, you know. So you have basically hockey going 24 from 5:30 in the afternoon until well past 11:00 and 25 you are clearly not going to gain much in the market StenoTran 280 1 share if that's the package that is going to be 2 presented. 3 1282 Again, I'm not necessarily counting 4 all of the sports broadcasting. I think clearly we 5 have to be in a position of presenting ourselves to 6 ourselves in the sense of I would be very happy, 7 probably quite happy to sit there for three hours and 8 watch a Regina Pat's game. Like, I've never 9 necessarily made the effort to go out there, but it 10 would be worthwhile, I think, in my sense, to look at 11 something like that or even in other television 12 stations. They do broadcasts of things like curling 13 and a variety of other local initiatives. 14 1283 The third one is the regional news I 15 think should be given a higher priority than some of 16 the international stuff. I think I have run into 17 enough people these days, almost to the point where if 18 I hear of one person, you know, or hear one more news 19 broadcast about people like Monica Lewinsky or 20 O.J. Simpson, Newt Gingrich type of thing, I think 21 there is probably going to be a few shoes thrown 22 through the TV channels -- or the TV, I should say. 23 1284 One of the things which I guess -- 24 because I do flip through the CBC French TV, one thing 25 I have found is that even just watching the visual part StenoTran 281 1 of the news, because unfortunately I can't take in all 2 of what people are saying and the commentary that goes 3 with it, I'm getting a sense of in fact things that are 4 happening in Quebec that even we aren't hearing about. 5 Again, I'm not sure whether that's just a matter of it 6 is not being seen as a priority within our national 7 listing of what comes on the news. But again I hear 8 things about Quebec Hydro and various other fights, you 9 know, discussions and all that, and we don't hear 10 anything about that out here. 11 1285 Maybe I may have to take a little 12 more effort and perhaps learn a little bit more French 13 so that I will in fact be able to understand what they 14 are talking about. 15 1286 Number five was looking at 16 performance arts and, again, more of that on the 17 television. Even radio, I think it is quite strong in 18 that area, so I don't think we necessarily have to do 19 more of that, but just maintain a certain amount of 20 regional support for that. 21 1287 But I think on the television, I 22 look, and again I look at some of the stuff that I have 23 seen through -- I don't know whether it is 24 retrospective or in fact sometimes when they can't seem 25 to find a good thing to put in that slot, so they just StenoTran 282 1 throw something in that was broadcast 20 years ago. I 2 look at some of the performance art going on, like the 3 music performances. I'm just wondering why we are not 4 doing more of that in the sense of things like 5 symphonies and even local stuff, you know, in the sense 6 of: Why is it not appropriate for us to be recording 7 and broadcasting the Regina Symphony concert 8 nationally? Like, I don't see a reason why we 9 shouldn't be doing that. 10 1288 The next one is around some of the 11 shows that are currently going national. Now, as it 12 turns out, I grew up on Peter Gzowski and Vicki 13 Gabereau and a few other people, so to the idea of 14 listening to someone different and doing a different 15 process, it seems to have lost some of the sparkle in 16 it. Again, I'm not sure whether that necessarily is 17 attached with the personalities that are on the radio 18 or whether it is the formatting. But in my mind, you 19 know, it doesn't sound like it was the same or it is 20 the same as it was before. 21 1289 Obviously, you have heard a lot over 22 the past hours here, and I suspect even before you got 23 here and probably after you leave, about the adequate 24 resource support for such a broadcaster. I think just 25 to even consider returning things to a level of where StenoTran 283 1 they were before, I think that it is clear there is 2 going to have to be money put there. I guess I would 3 encourage you to be as strong as you can to the powers 4 that be about what the people have told you and how 5 much they value from what you have seen and heard over 6 this time. 7 1290 The last one I'm going to put is 8 around what I'm calling journalistic integrity of the 9 news system. Again, it's principally the TV news that 10 I have been picking up on. I think in some aspects we 11 are starting to begin to get -- I guess politely 12 calling it -- political and administrative interference 13 in what in fact a reporter can or cannot report on. I 14 think we clearly need to be -- looking at the news is 15 not a just a show that we try to create ratings around, 16 but in fact it's an accurate report of what is in fact 17 happening. 18 1291 I think, as we have seen in some 19 cases with the amateur video slipping into the process 20 and various other television systems, unfortunately, 21 unless we want to see that happening in Canada more, we 22 will be probably seeing that happening in this 23 broadcasting system as well. 24 1292 Now, I guess the last thing I will 25 point to -- and this is I guess my attempt to try to StenoTran 284 1 figure out a jargonistic type of description of what in 2 fact I have been trying to describe to you, and I 3 apologize in the sense that it is not entirely my ideas 4 or my issue but it is more of a mixture of a couple of 5 individuals' comments -- I guess when I look at the 6 CBC, I see basically a mind virus checker in the sense 7 that the mind is continually getting a lot of 8 information, both digital and audio, coming into its 9 system, whether that's through its ears and eyes or 10 whether it is just around it in the sense of the heat 11 and light and that type of thing. We have all been 12 hearing a little bit of noise around us and we have an 13 ability to block some of that stuff from getting into 14 the system and in fact creating problems. 15 1293 What I see is in fact the CBC is that 16 system of keeping things relevant, keeping things -- I 17 guess, you know, questioning what is going on, like, 18 "Why are you thinking that way", you know, "What's the 19 problem? Can we work it out? Let's hear what you have 20 to say", type of thing, because, unfortunately, I think 21 I see, if we don't have that process of stopping those 22 viruses or those ideas from infiltrating our community 23 and our country, we will begin to have parts of it not 24 knowing what the other parts are doing. 25 1294 Again I think we are finding that out StenoTran 285 1 now. In fact, what will happen is your right foot will 2 be trying to go forward and your left foot will be 3 actually trying to figure out if it should be going 4 backwards. You know, I think very quickly you can see 5 that you are going to be in a position where it is 6 going to be very unstable. You are going to begin to 7 start seeing I guess further divisions, further cracks 8 developing. 9 1295 I think other than the fact of the 10 CBC being here, there is a lot of things that will get 11 worse if we don't take the effort to both encourage the 12 strength and promises of the CBC, but also discourage 13 some of the negative stuff. 14 1296 Thank you. 15 1297 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 16 Mr. Elliott. 17 1298 Mr. Secretary. 18 1299 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 19 1300 I would just like to quickly run down 20 a few names here to make sure that nobody got missed. 21 I wasn't sure if everybody came to the table on the 22 last call. 23 1301 Dr. Bromley, would you come to the 24 table please, and Mrs. Bromley. 25 1302 And Doug McKay, Ken Chikle. StenoTran 286 1 2047 2 1303 Mr. Bromley, would you like to 3 proceed next on the list? 4 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 5 1304 DR. BROMLEY: Thank you, 6 Madam Chairman. I'm sorry I'm late. 7 1305 I think I should, first of all, give 8 you a short summary of who I am. 9 1306 I came to Canada in 1964. I am from 10 Myanmar, Burma. I was born there. I was educated in 11 India. My family were from England. So I have seen a 12 variety of broadcasting in India, the BBC; the 13 Netherlands, Patavia and Java; and now Canada. 14 1307 It's very important that I say 15 something about it. My presentation is very, very 16 short. I corroborate what has been said and have 17 something to add to that. 18 1308 The function of the CRTC. 19 1309 The CRTC has been given a mandate by 20 the citizens of Canada to act as stewards to take care 21 of the CBC, a national institution, and to ensure that 22 the CBC is able to function efficiently and adequately 23 according to the wishes and interests of the citizens 24 of Canada. 25 1310 I have put the burden, the onus on StenoTran 287 1 the CRTC. 2 1311 The function of the CBC: The 3 unifying bond. The CBC is the glue which keeps this 4 large country together by informing its people of what 5 is happening in the rest of the country and also 6 locally. 7 1312 A sense of history. We would propose 8 introduction of First Nation broadcasting. It will 9 give the Canadian people their sense of history with 10 progressive occupation by foreigners, with its present 11 multicultural and multiracial mix, and the acceptance 12 of reality to move forward. We know who we came from, 13 who occupied the country. 14 1313 Information. To supply accurate and 15 trustworthy news by journalists of the highest calibre 16 uninfluenced by politicians or business. The public 17 trusts the journalists more than they do the 18 politicians and they will be remembered longer than the 19 politicians, examples, Barbara Frum and Peter Gzowski. 20 1314 Recreation. Whether this be sports, 21 music, drama, plays or stand-up comics, the CBC has 22 been superb. I know there is a move to try to cut down 23 the sports, but if some like sports, excessive sport 24 programming, let them have it if that keeps the 25 Canadian bonds together. StenoTran 288 1 1315 A forum of discussion. Open-line 2 shows allow the public to present their views and 3 opinions. 4 1316 Advertising. This should not be 5 allowed on CBC radio. This service is unique the way 6 it is and should not be allowed to deteriorate into the 7 cacophony we hear on our radio systems. 8 1317 On the public deal, CBC. We bracket 9 the CBC in the same way in which we bracket Canadian 10 unity, medicare and education. We all but try the 11 politicians who will to try to emasculate any of these 12 national ideals. 13 1318 Thank you. That's all I have to say. 14 1319 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 15 Dr. Bromley. 16 1320 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 17 2050 18 1321 Elmer Hildebrand. 19 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 20 1322 MR. HILDEBRAND: Thank you. 21 1323 Madam Chair, Commissioners and 22 guests, I'm here today to share my views as a private 23 broadcaster about the CBC as it relates mainly to CBC 24 radio. 25 1324 Personally, I have been in the StenoTran 289 1 broadcast business since 1957 and have watched the 2 radio process since we first got a broadcast licence 3 from the CBC at that time, which preceded the BBG and 4 the CRTC in licensing private radio operators in 5 Canada. 6 1325 In 1957, we started small. We 7 operated a 1,000 watt radio station in Altona, 8 Manitoba -- the population at that time was 1,800 in 9 that community -- with staff of nine people. Today we 10 operate 12 radio stations, employing 200 people in the 11 three prairie provinces. 12 1326 As the years unfolded, it became 13 obvious to me that in Canada we probably have the best 14 system of radio service anywhere in the world. Our 15 blend of private and national radio is unique and could 16 be even better with the proper focus. 17 1327 As I became involved in the industry 18 during the seventies and eighties and nineties, I was 19 involved with a variety of trade organizations in the 20 industry. I often made the comment that if the CBC 21 wasn't as predatory and concentrated on broad general 22 service, as opposed to trying to be local, the country 23 would be even better served. 24 1328 Even today, the CBC tries to compete 25 in offering a full local service in metro markets, even StenoTran 290 1 though there is already very adequate local service 2 provided by many local broadcasters. 3 1329 During my tenure as Chair of the 4 Canadian Association of Broadcasters, Pierre Juneau was 5 the Chair at CBC. We met and I suggested we should be 6 working together more and not trying to trip each other 7 up. He agreed. But shortly thereafter, he left his 8 post at the CBC and I could not move the process 9 forward with his successor. 10 1330 Later on, I had many discussions with 11 your current President, and also with Harold Redekopp, 12 who runs CBC Radio, about how we might co-operate. 13 1331 Since CBC has the largest news 14 operation in Canada, and maybe in North America for 15 that matter, I suggested that they be the national news 16 supplier to the private radio broadcasters. As a 17 result, an historic trial process was ultimately 18 launched with our Manitoba network of radio stations 19 where we carried hourly news reports live from the CBC 20 National Newsroom. This process worked very well and 21 we were certainly prepared to make a long-term 22 commitment with the CBC. But probably because the CBC 23 can't make decisions easily or quickly, they could 24 never determine what to charge for this service. What 25 started as a 13-week trial period was extended to StenoTran 291 1 26 weeks and still no long-term arrangement. While the 2 bureaucrats at the CBC tried to determine a fee, the 3 idea withered and died on the vine. 4 1332 In my opinion, the CBC, with its huge 5 annual allotment from the Canadian taxpayer, should 6 concentrate on broad national issues and stay away from 7 trying to provide local service. At the very best, 8 today they scratch the surface in the top eight or nine 9 metropolitan markets with their local attempts, and in 10 the process still leave out most Canadians. 11 1333 Private broadcasters can readily do 12 the local service much better. They are flexible, 13 mobile, while the CBC is rigid, inflexible and moves 14 with the speed of molasses. 15 1334 I think in a few years much of the 16 overstaffing at the CBC may have been rectified through 17 lay offs, retirement and attrition, as a new leaner CBC 18 could provide a truly national Canadian service without 19 further assistance from the taxpayer. 20 1335 I agree with many of the people that 21 have been speaking here tonight. The CBC is unique and 22 they can provide a national service that local 23 broadcasters cannot provide. They can provide time for 24 drama, for arts, and for a lot of other similar 25 programs that the private broadcasters don't have the StenoTran 292 1 budgets to even start to do. But the CBC can do that 2 and I maintain they should do more of that and not try 3 to be local because they can't be both. 4 1336 The mood of the country seems to be 5 "No more money for the CBC from the public purse." I 6 think if we, the private broadcasters and the CBC, work 7 together Canada will be even better served than it is 8 at the present time. 9 1337 Thank you. 10 1338 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 11 Mr. Hildebrand. 12 1339 Mr. Secretary. 13 1340 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 14 2056 15 1341 Dr. Edward Lewis. 16 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 17 1342 DR. LEWIS: Thank you. 18 1343 Madam Chairperson, Members of the 19 CRTC, and members of the community, thank you very much 20 for allowing me to have the opportunity to have some 21 input in this process. 22 1344 I am a professor of music at the 23 University of Regina. The doctor part is a Ph.D. in 24 performance and composition. 25 1345 I have been listening to many views. StenoTran 293 1 I would first like to say, as the circular asks, what 2 the CBC means to me. 3 1346 I am an immigrant to Canada. I have 4 been here 26 years. I am a Canadian citizen. I came 5 from the United States. I want to say that I served in 6 the United States Army during Vietnam and then chose to 7 come to Canada. Part of the reason that I chose to 8 come to Canada was the CBC. 9 1347 When I heard of a country that 10 supports arts, supports artists, has the internal 11 integrity to broadcast what is not commercially viable 12 but is artistically sound, that's a place that I 13 thought I might want to live and I would want to bring 14 my family here and bring up my two daughters and my 15 wife. That's one of the reasons that I'm here. 16 1348 When I got to Canada in 1974, it was 17 very important for me to find, to identify a Canadian 18 cultural identity. I have to tell you I did a lot of 19 searching. 20 1349 I went to the movies. I saw a 21 Canadian movie. It certainly wasn't something that I 22 would say would be a Canadian identity. It was a cops 23 and robbers movie copied after a typical cops and 24 robbers movie. I went to some plays. They were all 25 stuff from the U.S. StenoTran 294 1 1350 Where I found a distinct and unique 2 Canadian identity was CBC Radio. I found Canadian 3 humour. I found a Canadian view of looking at things. 4 It's very different than the United States and anywhere 5 else I have been. I found that the CBC itself, with no 6 advertising, was so great because I was listening to 7 Canada. I could hear viewpoints from all over the 8 country. I could hear local viewpoints. I could begin 9 to understand how Canadians think and what Canada is 10 because of CBC Radio. 11 1351 So I have to say that CBC Radio is 12 and was very important to me. 13 1352 In my field, in music, when I first 14 got here, I had no idea what the rest of the country 15 was doing. I have a Masters from Julliard, a Bachelors 16 from Eastman, and a Ph.D. from NYU. I was primarily 17 classically trained but I do a lot of jazz as well, and 18 one of the things that I do is the jazz program at the 19 university. 20 1353 In 1975 I saw a CBC program that 21 covered the Canadian National Jazz Competition. No 22 other station would have covered that because it isn't 23 commercially viable. By seeing the winners, who 24 happened to be hombre, it inspired me to think we can 25 produce in Saskatchewan a jazz program that's StenoTran 295 1 competitive with the east and with the west. We did 2 and we won the national championships two years later 3 because of CBC television and that CBC was able to 4 broadcast something that other channels couldn't 5 because other channels had to make money. 6 1354 The birth of jazz education in 7 Saskatchewan I can directly relate to my seeing this 8 program on CBC. Now we have jazz in every high school, 9 we have jazz at both universities, we have jazz all 10 over the province. Again, I could relate that to CBC. 11 1355 My concern about what is going on is 12 great. I believe that the culture of a nation is the 13 window to its essence, to its soul. The culture, which 14 is real art, is neither readily accessible nor popular 15 with the majority of people, yet it is real art that 16 defines a society and a civilization. It is through 17 that art that we know ancient Egypt, that we know 18 Sixteenth Century England and other countries, and I 19 would like to suggest that Sixteenth Century England 20 knew itself better because of Shakespeare's plays and 21 other art. 22 1356 It is through art and the arts that 23 we stay in touch with our national identity and 24 national consciousness. We know ourselves better 25 through hearing and seeing the arts. Today only the StenoTran 296 1 CBC is dedicated to providing that national forum. It 2 is not profitable. It cannot be done by a station that 3 is looking to make money. It has to be supported and 4 its very important. 5 1357 I believe, therefore, it is a 6 responsibility of the Government of Canada and the CRTC 7 to suggest this, that there be continued and elevated 8 support to maintain CBC so that CBC can continue to 9 present to our nation the real art, which again is 10 neither profitable nor popular, on a mass scale in 11 which any few, if any, commercial stations would air 12 but which is necessary and important for our national 13 well being. 14 1358 I would also like to suggest that CBC 15 TV be instructed or guided, or however you can do it, 16 to, first of all, do away with all advertising so that 17 it will have a unique identity like CBC radio, and 18 present -- and the radio as well -- all Canadian 19 programming. Nothing from the U.S., nothing from 20 England, nothing from anywhere else. All Canadian 21 programming. It should not be in competition with CBS 22 and NBC. It should provide a unique set of 23 programming, Canadian programming only, and that it not 24 compete commercially. 25 1359 I would also like to suggest that StenoTran 297 1 privatizing CBC would destroy CBC. We don't need 2 another country or rock radio station and we don't need 3 another commercial TV station. 4 1360 Thank you very much. 5 1361 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 6 Dr. Lewis. 7 1362 I'm happy you clarified. I thought 8 that we would have medical assistance in here if 9 anybody had a heart attack, but we don't, so at least I 10 know that. 11 1363 Thank you. 12 1364 Mr. Secretary. 13 1365 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 14 2105 15 1366 Darcy McKenzie, please. 16 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 17 1367 MR. McKENZIE: Thank you, 18 Madam Chairperson, Members of the CRTC, for allowing us 19 this opportunity to make a presentation today. 20 1368 Thank you to the good Dr. Lewis for 21 saving me some time and some of the comments that we 22 wanted to make. An excellent intro for us. 23 1369 Our presentation may differ slightly 24 from the others where we will be asking some critical 25 questions and providing some suggestions or answers to StenoTran 298 1 those questions which we hope will have a profound 2 influence on these consultations and the resulting 3 actions undertaken by the CRTC. 4 1370 Saskatchewan Arts Alliance is an 5 inclusive, member-driven coalition of arts 6 organizations that provides a collective voice for the 7 arts community of Saskatchewan. 8 1371 Established in 1984, the Arts 9 Alliance seeks to strengthen, support and advance the 10 arts through advocacy and policy development. The SAA 11 represents the position of the arts community to 12 government, funding agencies and the public as needed. 13 The needs of individual artists are central to the 14 considerations of the Sask Arts Alliance. 15 "In your view, how well does the 16 CBC fulfil its role as the 17 national public broadcaster? In 18 the new millennium, should the 19 CBC fulfil its role in a 20 different manner than it has in 21 the past?" 22 1372 I think the answer to the question is 23 both. Our suggestion is that the CBC should improve on 24 its past success, and I don't mean cheaper, I mean more 25 resources with a definitive plan developed with real StenoTran 299 1 and meaningful input from the communities in which it 2 serves. 3 "How well does the CBC serve the 4 public on a regional as well as 5 at a national level?" 6 1373 On a regional level, the CBC in the 7 past has had a significant impact on the development of 8 Saskatchewan's artists, especially in the literary and 9 performing arts and the cultural industries. The CBC 10 provided opportunities for freelancers, writers, visual 11 artists and performers to work, and it nurtured our 12 artists by providing workshops so that they can gain 13 work. The CBC produced original Saskatchewan 14 productions that tell our stories and cover our 15 artists. 16 1374 Beyond our artists, the CBC responded 17 to local needs through its regional programs. For 18 example, on one of the CBC Radio morning programs 19 visual artists raised money for the food bank by 20 donating their artworks that were auctioned on the 21 show. This would not have occurred if there were no 22 windows for regional programming. The visual artists 23 auctioned for the food bank. I understand that the 24 program is now being taken up by CBC in other provinces 25 such as New Brunswick and possibly British Columbia. StenoTran 300 1 1375 In the past few years there has been 2 a withdrawal of regional resources in the CBC, such as 3 staff positions, producers, story editors, just to 4 mention a few. As a former CBC journalist, I can 5 attest to that. The result is programming originating 6 from Saskatchewan has been reduced and opportunities 7 have diminished for our artists to work and develop 8 their art form. 9 1376 In CBC television, the withdrawal of 10 resources has correlated with a pull-back to national 11 programming and a reduction in regional airtime for 12 local productions. When CBC television was actively 13 involved in partnering with local production companies, 14 high-quality programs were produced. It was mentioned 15 in a previous presentation. What's On Earth, Utopia 16 Cafe, just to mention a few, those were the programs 17 that were developed locally and presented locally with 18 a local view. 19 1377 With the pull-back to national 20 programming, regional CBC has withdrawn as a partner in 21 our productions because CBC Saskatchewan, although it 22 continues to provide facilities, has lost the resources 23 needed to support our regional producers. The 24 withdrawal of regional resources in radio and 25 television, the pull-back to the national TV StenoTran 301 1 programming and reduced airtime for regional TV 2 programming has resulted in fewer of our stories being 3 seen or heard. 4 1378 The move to national programming has 5 left a void that is not being filled by other 6 broadcasters nor, in our opinion, will they ever be 7 filled. 8 "Should the programming provided 9 by CBC radio and television be 10 different from that provided by 11 other broadcasters? If so, what 12 should these differences be?" 13 1379 Well, yes, on both counts. 14 1380 CBC should be taking creative chances 15 at both the regional and national level. CBC 16 programming should be discovering and nurturing new 17 talent, writers, artists and performers. CBC has the 18 ability to take chances because it does not answer to 19 shareholders as private broadcasters do. 20 "Is there a special role that 21 the CBC should play in the 22 presentation of Canadian 23 programming? If so, what should 24 that role be?" 25 1381 The CBC should be commended for its StenoTran 302 1 move to Canadianize its prime time weekday television 2 schedule. The CBC should be encouraged to continue in 3 this direction. The CBC should reinvest strongly in 4 regional programming. The CBC television should 5 empower its regional directors to licence regional 6 productions. The CBC should also schedule airtime for 7 regional television programming on a consistent basis. 8 1382 In closing, we recommend that the 9 CRTC ask the CBC to address issues related to regional 10 programming and encourage the CBC, with all its 11 resources, to reinvest in regional programming 12 throughout Canada. 13 1383 Thank you. 14 1384 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 15 Mr. McKenzie. 16 1385 Mr. Secretary. 17 2113 18 1386 MR. LAHAY: Alex Zypchyn, please. 19 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 20 1387 MS ZYPCHYN: Thank you. 21 1388 My name is Alex Zypchyn and I'm here 22 on behalf -- not on behalf -- I'm here for my daughter 23 to speak for her, okay? She was unable to make it. 24 She is up in Saskatoon working. 25 1389 She has written this up completely on StenoTran 303 1 here own, okay? 2 1390 She starts off by: 3 "My name is Karyn Zypchyn. I am 4 30 years old and a former CBC 5 radio reporter who spent over 6 four years working at the public 7 broadcaster. My background 8 includes a Master's degree in 9 Journalism from the University 10 of Western Ontario, and a 11 Master's degree in History. I 12 am also bilingual and have done 13 reports in French for 14 Radio-Canada. When I learned 15 the CRTC wanted to hear from 16 people on how they think the CBC 17 is serving Canadians, I knew 18 this would be the appropriate 19 forum to tell my story. I come 20 forward tonight to tell you that 21 there is one group of Canadians 22 the CBC is not always serving. 23 That group is the people who 24 work for the CBC. I come to you 25 of my own accord, without StenoTran 304 1 influence from the current 2 labour dispute at the CBC. In 3 fact, I quit the CBC almost a 4 year ago because of the story I 5 am about to tell you. It's a 6 story of disappointment in the 7 lack of leadership and vision at 8 the CBC, and disappointment in 9 the negative politics that 10 survive in that organization. 11 In my opinion, the lack of 12 leadership in combination with 13 negative politics creates a 14 situation that risks 15 compromising the journalistic 16 service provided to Canadians 17 through news and current 18 affairs. Ultimately, the use of 19 taxpayers dollars to support 20 such a system is called into 21 question. First let me paint a 22 picture of my hopes and 23 aspirations in joining the CBC. 24 When I graduated from journalism 25 school in 1994, I eagerly went StenoTran 305 1 to CBC Sudbury to start my 2 career in journalism as a casual 3 fill-in reporter. I came to the 4 CBC with the utmost respect for 5 the work of the CBC, and 6 religiously learned the policy 7 and mandate of the Corporation 8 so that I could do my best to 9 serve Canadians in a 10 professional manner. I believed 11 in the mandate of the CBC and 12 felt privileged to be one of the 13 reporters filing stories to 14 regional, provincial and 15 national networks. In short, I 16 was proud to be a CBC reporter 17 and felt my work deeply 18 connected me to my identity 19 being a Canadian. I had all the 20 enthusiasm, optimism and 21 aspiration expected of a new 22 graduate to create a career for 23 myself in the CBC. I knew I had 24 the talent and the skills to go 25 far, and set myself upon my StenoTran 306 1 journey. Upon starting my work, 2 I immediately found a good 3 national story equivalent to the 4 seriousness of the breast 5 implant controversy. Ten months 6 later, and at a time when the 7 CBC was cutting back staff, I 8 got promoted to ... a staff 9 reporter in Yellowknife. I 10 spent almost three years there, 11 covering many stories on such 12 topics as aboriginal issues, 13 environmental concerns and 14 northern politics. I filed 15 regularly to the national 16 network and was heard many times 17 across Canada. People seemed to 18 appreciate my work at the 19 national level and they 20 supported my efforts, my 21 considerable overtime pay 22 attesting to their financial 23 support. However, getting 24 support locally to file my 25 national stories was another StenoTran 307 1 story. That's when I began to 2 question what was going on at 3 the CBC. I was baffled: I had 4 been hired to file both regional 5 and national stories from the 6 North. Yet, I was told locally 7 that `national' could get their 8 own reporter to do stories on 9 the North. My priority, I was 10 told, was filing at least 2 11 stories a day for the regional 12 newscast. Even when I arranged 13 for back fill pay for me to do a 14 national documentary project, I 15 faced grumblings locally about 16 my efforts. In this way, I 17 witnessed first-hand tension 18 between the national network and 19 its regions. Had I not filed my 20 national stories on my own time 21 and on overtime, after putting 22 in a 9 to 10 hour day to gather 23 regional news, many stories on 24 the North would not have reached 25 Canadians in southern Canada. I StenoTran 308 1 spent many a night working late 2 because of a lack of cooperation 3 between the region and national 4 headquarters. Had support for 5 my national stories been given 6 more regularly at a local level, 7 I could have provided the same 8 service for less taxpayer's 9 money, and more [efficiency] for 10 my time and the Corporation's 11 time [as well]. After spending 12 almost 3 years in the North, I 13 decided it was time to advance 14 my career by moving south. 15 Because of slow movement within 16 the CBC, not many jobs were 17 becoming available. I therefore 18 quit my staff status to advance 19 my career by coming to CBC 20 Saskatchewan in Regina and 21 taking on a short-term contract 22 for 4 months. That move did 23 anything but advance my career. 24 In fact, it brought it to an 25 end, as I will explain. I StenoTran 309 1 started at CBC Saskatchewan on 2 January 1998. I immediately 3 noticed two things in the 4 workplace that raised concerns 5 on my part. First, a poster on 6 a post in the newsroom depicting 7 several scantily clad women in 8 bathing suits encircling a man 9 standing in the middle of 10 them ... The man's face had been 11 superimposed with an image of 12 the face of one of the male 13 on-air personalities. I found 14 the poster to be sexist and 15 distasteful. I thought to 16 myself that I would be 17 embarrassed if a member of the 18 public came through the newsroom 19 and saw that poster. 20 Furthermore, I suspected many 21 taxpayers and CBC listeners 22 would not approve of their money 23 being spent on a workplace that 24 allows such a poster to be 25 pinned up. Second, I StenoTran 310 1 immediately noticed a situation 2 on the news and current affairs 3 floor that raised concerns about 4 conflict of interest. A husband 5 and wife team were working on 6 the same floor. I had to report 7 to her husband, and so did she, 8 hence my concern about conflict 9 of interest. An issue came up 10 one day, with the wife attacking 11 me and my professionalism, which 12 I found to be completely 13 unfounded and unnecessary. 14 Following our encounter, her 15 husband told me my story I was 16 producing under his wife would 17 not go to air. That despite the 18 fact that I had spent two days 19 on overtime to cover my current 20 affairs story, and despite the 21 fact that my story was good. I 22 wondered about how 23 unprofessional the CBC would 24 appear to the hundred people who 25 were at the conference I covered StenoTran 311 1 for my story, when the story was 2 absent from the airwaves. I 3 later approached the wife to 4 clarify something, and she said 5 my story was good, so they would 6 run it after all. The husband 7 didn't know she had made that 8 decision so when I told him I 9 was preparing my story to go to 10 air, he told me again it wasn't 11 going to air. The confusion was 12 finally settled, and my nerves 13 put to ease when the final 14 decision came that my story 15 would go to air. In this way, 16 and in my opinion, negative 17 politics almost prevented a good 18 story about the public from 19 going to air. I questioned how 20 refusing to air my story would 21 have served the Canadian public. 22 Things only got progressively 23 worse at CBC Saskatchewan, and 24 it became evident to me that 25 people were working against me. StenoTran 312 1 They attacked my ability to do 2 stories, something I had never 3 encountered in my career up to 4 that point. As a result I quit. 5 Shortly after that, I was asked 6 to do some work for the French 7 people at Radio-Canada 8 Saskatchewan, across the way 9 from the English newsroom I had 10 just left. They had no concerns 11 about my journalistic ability to 12 do stories. In this way, I quit 13 the public broadcaster, 14 disappointed in the end that my 15 career had come to after all the 16 time and education I had put 17 into getting myself to the CBC. 18 By this point, I had lost much 19 of my respect for the 20 Corporation, and the enthusiasm, 21 optimism and aspirations I had 22 for continuing a career in one 23 of Canada's major cultural 24 organizations fell by the 25 wayside. As a taxpayer, I am StenoTran 313 1 concerned that my money is going 2 to a system that works in ways I 3 have described, ways which I 4 believe can jeopardize efforts 5 to inform the public about 6 events and situations in their 7 communities and around the 8 world. That system lacks 9 leadership. Without this needed 10 leadership, politics survive and 11 thrive, and they drive many of 12 the decisions being made at CBC. 13 Accountability and good and just 14 management is needed to lead the 15 CBC into the 21st century. 16 Before I end, let this be clear: 17 I still am committed to the 18 mandate of the CBC, and I 19 believe passionately in public 20 broadcasting. Many journalists 21 at the CBC are professional and 22 they work hard to serve the 23 Canadian public, journalists 24 like David McLauchlin and Joan 25 Leischman. I can only wonder StenoTran 314 1 what they have had to endure 2 throughout their careers to 3 produce stories, stories 4 Canadians rely on to be 5 informed." 6 1391 At this point, I would also like to 7 make a comment that my daughter had made to me and I do 8 not know if she would like me to say this or not, but 9 she had sent these out to several people, several 10 people that are high in the CBC organization and have 11 been with them for a long time. 12 1392 The one remark, not naming any names 13 was said: 14 "You have guts little lady, but 15 don't ever expect to work for 16 CBC again." (As read) 17 1393 I feel sorry if that's the attitude 18 of the people at CBC. They are supposed to be 19 well-educated individuals. I am not. This to me shows 20 a dishonour to people who go out, get an education and 21 get slapped in the face. 22 1394 Thank you. 23 1395 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 24 Ms Zypchyn. 25 1396 Mr. Secretary. StenoTran 315 1 1397 MR. LAHAY: Madam Chair, thank you. 2 2120 3 1398 Cathy Currey. 4 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 5 1399 MS CURREY: Good evening, 6 Madam Chairperson, visitors, former -- pardon me, not 7 former -- round table participants here, and ladies and 8 gentlemen. 9 1400 Being number 25 on the program here, 10 I expect I'm the last speaker, although I understand 11 that you were taking a few other people when I spoke to 12 the national people. That may or may not be the case. 13 1401 Presuming I'm the end, I'm very happy 14 to bring up the end in many different ways. Hearing 15 your story just now, it's a very painful reminder about 16 the difficulties, the concerns that we as ordinary 17 Canadians have with CBC that we love. 18 1402 I have grown up with CBC and I'm sure 19 a number of people who are in this room today have 20 grown up with the CBC or have been introduced to CBC 21 from afar. In some of my vindictive moments, I am glad 22 that we have the power of CBC to trap people from the 23 American south, to be able to look forward, and here is 24 living proof of when to capture them. I think that's 25 one of our successes that probably CBC doesn't chalk up StenoTran 316 1 in their scorecard, but you know it would be a very 2 interesting record to keep. 3 1403 We have a lot of people that do 4 listen to Canadian programming that are not Canadian, 5 and that's from around the world. I speak from having 6 lived around the world, in other locations as well. 7 But, we, particularly in Regina, if you are not 8 familiar with Regina, have a broad hearing range all 9 the way to portions of British Columbia, far north, 10 down into the mid states and eastern Canada. 11 1404 I'm speaking for a group of people 12 who cannot hear CBC radio, and those are people sitting 13 here in Regina. It is a crime. So while I want to 14 speak about what CBC means to all of us, at the end of 15 tonight's program what I will do is I will present to 16 you a petition that is just done very, very quickly 17 without a lot of planning. It is a statement by Regina 18 people about how important it is for Regina people, the 19 entire city of Regina, to have access to CBC 20 programming. 21 1405 You have heard about the vitality and 22 the nature and the skill, the craft with which we show 23 our art, and yet it is not reaching a significant 24 portion of our second largest city and the capital of 25 our province. We should all be able to tap into that StenoTran 317 1 resource. Right now, just with the nature of the 2 telecommunications media, a number of people in the 3 City of Regina are not eligible to receive that. So 4 the upshot of this is that, although this is not the 5 hearing to present it, CBC will be applying for an FM 6 licence to retransmit its AM programming on the FM dial 7 solely for the Regina area so that people in the centre 8 of the city that cannot currently receive CBC AM 9 programming are able to get it on an FM channel. 10 1406 So this is a double whammy 11 application for you. It's a buttress of support for 12 that application that I would hope that you would carry 13 forward to the other applications when they come 14 forward. I believe that is happening in May with the 15 FM licence approvals that come up or are repeated very 16 often. So if you will just apply this to the long-term 17 nature. 18 1407 I would like to just speak for a 19 number of people. Certainly, we have -- well, my 20 counterpart to my left, who was an associate of private 21 business, certainly industry, education programming. I 22 speak in terms of the general public. The competition 23 comes from a number of retired people. It also comes 24 from self-employed people. 25 1408 I am in that category and I have a StenoTran 318 1 home-based business. Particularly, when we are doing 2 home-based businesses, we are working day, we are 3 working night. We work out in public, with the public, 4 but our touchstone with what is going on in the broader 5 community, it is very often through CBC radio. It is 6 important. It's a vital source for communication and 7 information for us, and it keeps our minds active when 8 we are doing mundane day-to-day activities. 9 1409 Regardless of our ages, CBC radio 10 engages us, keeps ours minds active and participating 11 as active members in our community. I like to think 12 that those are the kinds of things that lead to strong 13 community leadership at times in the future for us. 14 1410 While I introduce to you tonight this 15 petition, what I'm really wanting to say to you, too, 16 is it is so important for us to maintain the essence 17 and the vitality of CBC radio. Commercial radio has 18 its place, but it is such a shame that it is allowed to 19 saturate our minds with tripe and pap. There is 20 nothing to it. I get very, very nervous if we do not 21 challenge our young minds, to make them inquiring 22 minds, questioning minds, and strong minds for 23 leadership in the future. 24 1411 If all we allow is commercial radio, 25 commercial television in our communities, then we have StenoTran 319 1 a very, very difficult future ahead of us. We need to 2 be broader, to have bigger visions, and to allow 3 ourselves to dream and have philosophies to guide our 4 lives by. That's what CBC radio can allow us to do and 5 to join us as communities of communities to do that. 6 1412 So what I will do, I will make one 7 public appeal to anyone else who is here tonight who 8 has not had a chance to sign the petition, if you would 9 like to add your name to that, please. It will be 10 filed with the CRTC, as you see that tonight. 11 1413 Just in closing, then, I would like 12 to say thank you for having the courage to come out to 13 rural Canada and see us. It is so easy for us to 14 presume that sitting out east, either in Ottawa or 15 Toronto or Montreal, you are dealing with the suits and 16 the politics and you forget about rural Canada. You 17 can see we are a vital force and we are a strong force. 18 I think you need to see that. 19 1414 It's a pleasure to have you here and 20 welcome you, and please represent us well when you have 21 to make strong statements. We are a vital community. 22 Locally, our broadcasters here like to talk about 23 Toronto as the centre of the universe and of course we 24 know that's in satire. We are not so sure they do. We 25 will let you in on a little secret: it's a trick. StenoTran 320 1 1415 So please speak for us on our behalf, 2 represent us strongly and you are a vital, vital 3 connection to what makes Canada a true place for us all 4 to live. 5 1416 Thank you. 6 1417 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 7 Ms Currey. 8 1418 For your information, I'm from rural 9 Canada. I live here and my colleagues, I hope, will 10 find me to be a vital and strong force, and some of 11 them may be afraid of that. 12 1419 In any event, that is the end of the 13 presenters. 14 1420 As I have stated before, CBC has a 15 right of rebuttal. I understand that you are prepared 16 now. Is that correct? 17 1421 I'm sorry, I don't know your name, so 18 if you could say your name. 19 2131 20 1422 Thank you. 21 REPLY / RÉPLIQUE 22 1423 M. BONNEVILLE: Madame la Présidente 23 Cram, Madame la Commissaire Wylie, je m'appelle Lionel 24 Bonneville et je suis le directeur de la télévision 25 française de Radio-Canada dans l'ouest. StenoTran 321 1 1424 I am also representing English 2 television in Saskatchewan. My colleague Jane Chalmers 3 unfortunately had to attend to an urgent family matter 4 and she regrets very much that she couldn't be here 5 this evening. However, our other colleagues were here 6 today: Bill White, who is the Director of English 7 Radio for Saskatchewan; and René Fontaine who is my 8 colleague in French radio for the prairies. 9 1425 As my colleagues said earlier today, 10 our purpose here today was really to listen. We heard 11 much that was positive and that was very heartening; 12 and we heard some thoughtful, constructive criticism, 13 and we will have to give that some careful thought on 14 our part; and there were many solutions and 15 recommendations advanced. 16 1426 It would be impossible and I would 17 say even irresponsible of me to start responding to 18 those issues tonight. There were some very important 19 issues that were raised. I just want to assure every 20 presenter today that the issues will not be ignored. 21 We will deal with them in two ways. They will be dealt 22 with at the licence renewals later this spring before 23 the CRTC, and as well we will be responding 24 individually to every person that made a presentation. 25 1427 In the meantime, I would like to StenoTran 322 1 express our gratitude on behalf of my colleagues to say 2 how grateful we are that people took all that time and 3 effort to respond to the CRTC's call to come and speak 4 out about the CBC. I think it is important for us to 5 hear those voices. Some people put a lot of time and 6 effort in that and indeed drove many kilometres on 7 winter roads to do it, so we are very happy about that. 8 1428 Quelque mots en français pour 9 remercier tout spécialement les gens qui ont fait des 10 interventions traitant spécifiquement des médias 11 français en Saskatchewan. Je pense que c'est aussi 12 important pour nous de la télévision et la radio 13 française d'entendre ces voix-là que ce l'est du côté 14 anglais et peut-être plus parce que nous avons une 15 responsabilité spéciale en milieu minoritaire de rendre 16 un bon service à la communauté. Alors, je remercie 17 aussi tous ces gens-là qui ont fait cet effort-là. 18 1429 Thank you very much. It has been a 19 long day. I think we will leave it at that for 20 tonight. 21 1430 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 22 1431 I want to thank each and every one of 23 you. Thank you. 24 --- Whereupon the hearing concluded at 2131/ 25 L'audience se termine à 2131
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