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Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

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                       SUBJECT / SUJET:

                  SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

Delta Regina Hotel                      Hôtel Delta Regina
Trentino Room                           Salle Trentino
1919 Saskatchewan Drive                 1919, promenade Saskatchewan    
Regina, Saskatchewan                    Regina (Saskatchewan)

March 11, 1999                          Le 11 mars 1999

tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668


In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.


Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.


                 Canadian Radio-television and
                 Telecommunications Commission

              Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
                télécommunications canadiennes

                  Transcript / Transcription

              Public Hearing / Audience publique

                  SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)


Barbara Cram                            Chairperson / Présidente
                                        Commissioner / Conseillère

Andrée Wylie                            Commissioner / Conseillère
                                        Broadcasting /


Gary Krushen                            Director, Winnipeg Regional
                                        Office / Directeur
                                        régional, Winnipeg

Peter McCallum                          Commission Counsel /
                                        Avocat du Conseil

Rod Lahay                               Secretary / Secrétaire

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

Delta Regina Hotel                      Hôtel Delta Regina
Trentino Room                           Salle Trentino
1919 Saskatchewan Drive                 1919, promenade Saskatchewan    
Regina, Saskatchewan                    Regina (Saskatchewan)

March 11, 1999                          Le 11 mars 1999





Presentation by / Présentation par:

Mr. James Benning                                            6

Mr. Bruce Steele                                            16

Mr. Lorne Cherneski                                         26

Hon. Bernard Wiens                                          33

Mr. Steven Onda                                             48

Mr. Chris Axworthy                                          52

Mr. Gary Hyland                                             57

Mr. Tony Richmond                                           66

Mr. Brian Docjack                                           73

Mr. Victor Lau                                              78

Mrs. Barbara Stange                                         89

Ms Jennifer Stowell                                         94

Ms Elaine Driver                                            97

Mr. Al Taylor                                              104

Mr. Lee Boyko                                              108

Mr. Jonathan Bingham                                       114

Ms Ida Grosse                                              120

Mr. Brian Cousins                                          126

Mr. Norman Bray                                            135

M. Marcel Michaud                                          143

Mr. Andy Anderson and Mrs. Cathy Anderson                  152





Presentation by / Présentation par:

Ms Olive Lukey                                             161

Mr. John O'Donaghue                                        162

Ms Tasha Hubbard                                           167

Mr. Don Archbold                                           174

Ms Marge Robinson                                          180

Reply by / Réplique par:

Mr. Bill Gerald                                            185

Presentation by / Présentation par:

Ms Brenda Baker                                            194

Mr. Ron Clark                                              208

Mr. Dan Cameron                                            212

Ms Lucy Eley                                               217

Mr. Kevin DeWalt                                           221

Mr. Robert Waldegger                                       233

M. Raymond Morin                                           237

Mme Claudia Poirier                                        250

Mme Claire Bélanger-Parker                                 257

Mr. Armand Roy                                             263





Presentation by / Présentation par:

M. Stephen Kenny                                           270

Mr. Jim Elliott                                            275

Dr. Bromley                                                286

Mr. Elmer Hildebrand                                       288

Dr. Edward Lewis                                           292

Mr. Darcy McKenzie                                         297

Ms Alex Zypchyn for Ms Karyn Zypchyn                       302

Ms Cathy Currey                                            315

Reply by / Réplique par:

M. Lionel Bonneville                                       320



 1                Regina, Saskatchewan / Regina (Saskatchewan)
 2     --- Upon commencing on Wednesday, March 11, 1999
 3         at 1300 / L'audience reprend le mercredi
 4         11 mars 1999, à 1300
 5  1                    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good day, ladies
 6     and gentlemen; bonjour, mesdames et messieurs.
 7  2                    Bienvenue à cette consultation
 8     publique.  Welcome to this public consultation on the
 9     CBC.
10  3                    My name is Barbara Cram, and I am a
11     CRTC Commissioner.  To my left is Andrée Wylie, also a
12     CRTC Commissioner and Vice-Chairman of Broadcasting in
13     the CRTC.
14  4                    We are here to gather your views and
15     comments on CBC radio and television:  In your opinion,
16     how should the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation fulfil
17     its role in the coming years?
18  5                    The CBC is a national public service,
19     broadcasting in English as well as in French.  It plays
20     an important role in the Canadian broadcasting system. 
21     Today many elements are constantly being added to the
22     broadcasting system, as new technologies multiply,
23     converge, open up new horizons and increasingly offer
24     new services.  In this context, we want to know what
25     are your needs and expectations as listeners and


 1     viewers of CBC.
 2  6                    Given that, it is very important that
 3     the Commission hears what you have to say.  We must not
 4     lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public
 5     organization that serves Canadian citizens.  In this
 6     capacity, we are responsible to you.  This is why my
 7     fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to come
 8     and meet with you to discuss these issues and why we
 9     are holding this series of regional consultations from
10     one end of the country to the other, in 11 Canadian
11     cities, from March 9th to 18th.
12  7                    These consultations are designed to
13     give you a chance on the eve of the new millennium to
14     express your opinion of the CBC's role, the programming
15     it offers and the direction it should take at the
16     national, regional and local levels.
17  8                    Through these consultations we hope
18     to enter into an open dialogue with you and hear your
19     concerns.  Your comments will form part of the public
20     record, which will be added to the record of the public
21     hearing on the CBC that will begin in Hull next May
22     25th.
23  9                    At this upcoming hearing the
24     Commission will examine the CBC's application for the
25     renewal of its licences, including radio, television


 1     and its specialty services Newsworld and Réseau des
 2     Informations.
 3  10                   You can also take part in that public
 4     hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 
 5     If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the
 6     specific licence renewals being examined when you file
 7     your comments.
 8  11                   I would like to come back to today's
 9     consultations.
10  12                   Please allow me to introduce the CRTC
11     staff who will be assisting us today:  Peter McCallum
12     is our legal counsel; Mr. Rod Lahay is with our
13     Broadcasting Department; and Gary Krushen, who is at
14     the entrance, is the Director of our Winnipeg Regional
15     Office.
16  13                   Please feel free to call on them with
17     any questions you might have about the process today or
18     any other matter.
19  14                   So that you will all have the
20     opportunity to speak, we ask that you please limit your
21     representations to ten minutes.  As these consultations
22     are a forum designed specifically for you, and we will
23     want to listen to as many participants as possible, we
24     will not ask any questions unless we need
25     clarification.


 1  15                   At the end of the session,
 2     representatives from the local CBC stations will have a
 3     chance to offer their views, as they are naturally very
 4     interested in the issues we are discussing here today.
 5  16                   Before I start, I would like to ask
 6     Mr. Lahay to go over some of the housekeeping matters
 7     regarding the conduct of this consultation.
 8  17                   MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Commissioner
 9     Cram.
10  18                   Before we get started, just a few
11     things I would like to bring to your attention.
12  19                   First, we do have translation
13     services over here; in English on Channel 1, on French
14     on Channel 2.
15  20                   We have been asked that you provide a
16     driver's licence or a major credit card, please, which
17     will be returned to you when you return the devices.
18  21                   We will be conducting breaks
19     throughout the sessions today.  We will try to bring to
20     your attention when the breaks take place, so that you
21     can step out for a few moments.
22  22                   We have a comment sheet outside with
23     Mr. Krushen.  We would like to hear your comments about
24     the process.  Anything you have to say about it, we
25     would appreciate that.


 1  23                   In order to talk, when you come
 2     forward please push the white button on the microphone
 3     so that you will be heard and so that your comments
 4     will be placed on the official record with the
 5     transcorders.
 6  24                   I will be calling the first group of
 7     ten people to come forward, to come up here and sit
 8     down.  We would appreciate it, when you do your
 9     presentation, if you would give your name so that it
10     will be placed on the record.  The proceedings are
11     being transcribed, and we will have an idea of who said
12     what.
13  25                   To reiterate what Commissioner Cram
14     said, there is a ten-minute limit.  We actually do
15     respect that.  It makes it a lot easier when 10 o'clock
16     comes around tonight.
17  26                   I would like to call the first ten
18     presenters to come up and make yourselves at home.
19  27                   We will take you in this particular
20     order:  Richard Gustin or Jim Benning; Bruce Steele;
21     Lorne Cherneski; Hon. Bernard Wiens; Steven Onda; Chris
22     Axworthy; Gary Hyland; Tony Richmond; Brian Dojack;
23     Victor Lau.
24  28                   Mr. Benning or Mr. Gustin, feel free
25     to start at your convenience.


 2  29                   MR. BENNING:  Good afternoon.  SCN
 3     would like to thank the Commission for coming to
 4     Saskatchewan and providing an opportunity to discuss
 5     issues concerning the Canadian Broadcasting
 6     Corporation.
 7  30                   My name is James Benning, and I am
 8     the President and CEO of SCN, Saskatchewan
 9     Communications Network.
10  31                   With me, on my left, is Richard
11     Gustin, SCN's Executive Director of Programming.
12  32                   Madam Chair, to begin, I would like
13     to welcome you back to Saskatchewan.  I believe this is
14     your first official hearing in Saskatchewan.  We
15     welcome you back, and we look forward to great work
16     from you on the CRTC.
17  33                   I want to also welcome Madam Wylie,
18     whom I have met before in previous hearings.  I know
19     her judgment and discernment is very fair, and I know
20     her wisdom will be well used today.
21  34                   The Canadian broadcasting system is
22     driven by commercial interests and exists primarily to
23     serve the money making requirements of those interests.
24     Programming and programming services which Section 3 of
25     the Act states should be available to all Canadians do


 1     not exist or have been replaced by something more
 2     bottom line driven.
 3  35                   The mainstays of commercial
 4     television programming consist of dramas, sports,
 5     reality and tabloid programming designed to attract all
 6     the important 18-34 demographic.  Less desirable
 7     portions of the audience are ignored.
 8  36                   CNN and the Playboy Channel are
 9     available to pretty well every Canadian household
10     willing to pay for them, while broadcasting services
11     which speak to local, regional and educational issues
12     do not exist in many parts of the country.  The
13     Broadcasting Act speaks to a system of public, private
14     and community educational broadcasters meeting a
15     variety of needs, but the actual Canadian broadcasting
16     landscape looks quite different.
17  37                   Commercial radio's quest to attract
18     listeners has led to franchised format specific program
19     packages, talk radio Howard Stern "wannabes", and a
20     steady stream of contests to buy listeners.
21  38                   In Regina there is a commercial radio
22     station running a contest where listeners call in with
23     stories of their most embarrassing moments.  These
24     stories seem to feature urination and other bodily
25     functions.  Community tastes and standards have been


 1     discarded.
 2  39                   In the land of commercial radio there
 3     are no listeners under 12 or over 40.
 4  40                   SCN appreciates the chance to speak
 5     to issues concerning public broadcasting and the CBC. 
 6     We could suggest that the Commission could conduct a
 7     similar inquiry as part of licence renewal processes
 8     for commercial broadcasters and specialty services, to
 9     see how they have done in meeting the programming
10     requirements as set out in the Broadcasting Act.
11  41                   SCN awaits the results of CRTC's
12     Canadian Television Policy Review -- that done under
13     Public Notice 1998-44 -- as the Canadian broadcasting
14     system available to most Canadians is considerably
15     different from that described in the Broadcasting Act.
16  42                   SCN has spoken to some of these
17     issues in the past, and I refer you to our submission
18     to the Commission back in June of 1988.
19  43                   Incidentally, it was called "Voices
20     in the Wilderness".
21  44                   As a publicly funded regional
22     educational broadcaster, SCN has first-hand experience
23     in dealing with cutbacks and operating on a limited
24     budget.  We sympathize with the management and staff of
25     the CBC as they try to forge a new path in Canadian


 1     broadcasting.
 2  45                   SCN does not want to say that CBC is
 3     doing a bad job.  In spite of a great deal of adversity
 4     and uncertainty, many parts of, and people in, the CBC
 5     are doing a superb job.
 6  46                   The cutbacks imposed on the CBC have
 7     been substantial, and there have been times when the
 8     Corporation appeared to be having a very difficult
 9     time.
10  47                   CBC radio seems to have done a fairly
11     good job of managing the changes and still maintains a
12     strong regional presence, featuring several hours per
13     day of live regional news and information programming. 
14     This, combined with national news, information and
15     cultural programming, makes CBC radio a unique source
16     of regional and Canadian information, particularly when
17     compared to commercial alternatives.
18  48                   CBC television does not seem to have
19     coped as well with the changing financial and
20     broadcasting realities.  It has retreated into its
21     Toronto production centre and become just another
22     broadcaster.  In spite of locating the television
23     studios on the top floor, CBC's Toronto building just
24     isn't tall enough to show us much of the rest of
25     Canada.  Worse yet, the cutbacks to the CBC have been


 1     mirrored by CTV and CanWest Global as they consolidate
 2     and centralize their operations.
 3  49                   All of this is happening at a time
 4     when the Canadian film and television industry is
 5     booming.  Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver have become
 6     major production centres and are pumping out
 7     programming for Canadian, American and world markets. 
 8     Technological advantages and a growing population of
 9     skilled information workers have made it possible to
10     produce high-quality programming almost anywhere in the
11     country.
12  50                   CBC television has been slow to adapt
13     to this changing broadcasting environment.  Over the
14     past few years the regions have been gutted, and
15     resources hoarded in Toronto.  Sticking with
16     traditional methods of production, the Corporation has
17     been slow in coming to the realization that it can't be
18     everything for everyone.  It continues to chase major
19     entertainment and sports projects trying to maintain a
20     mass audience while ignoring the informational needs of
21     many Canadians.
22  51                   From SCN's perspective, it appears
23     that the regions and commitments to regional
24     programming must be listed as the casualties of the
25     cutbacks.


 1  52                   CBC has become a major player in the
 2     booming Toronto and Montreal production communities,
 3     but it is only interested in regionally produced
 4     projects when they are tailored to a national audience. 
 5     CBC Newsworld has done better, being an active
 6     participant in the Canadian documentary scene.
 7  53                   Up until the cutbacks began, CBC had
 8     a large well staffed plant in Regina capable of
 9     producing in-house network quality programming.  Since
10     then, the regional television production staff and
11     budget have been reduced to the point where it is
12     impossible to mount any kind of serious in-house
13     production in Regina.
14  54                   CBC radio, being used to smaller
15     production staff and limited resources, still manages
16     to provide a mix of local and regionally specific
17     programming.
18  55                   In the early 1990s, regional CBC
19     television was licensing regionally produced
20     independent productions for broadcast within the
21     region.  However, about 30 months ago, as regional
22     programming windows ended, the CBC ceased to be
23     involved in projects for regional use.
24  56                   What Saskatchewan is left with is a
25     CBC TV news unit, a handful of hard working radio


 1     people, and just enough skeleton staff to keep the
 2     lights on in the building.
 3  57                   SCN has been able to rent surplus
 4     office space and some production capacity for distance
 5     education classes.  Independent producers have been
 6     able to rent television studio and production space for
 7     non-CBC productions.
 8  58                   Following the CBC's lead, Global and
 9     CTV affiliates in the region have cut back to the point
10     where one of Canada's three national television
11     networks have any ability or willingness to participate
12     in regional projects in Saskatchewan.
13  59                   Over the past several years, Canada's
14     regional film and video industries have started to come
15     of age, propelled at least in part by the new Specialty
16     channels licensed by CRTC and their requirements for
17     Canadian content.  Saskatchewan has been part of this
18     process with the film and video sector becoming one of
19     the fastest growing sectors in Saskatchewan's economy.
20  60                   SCN, working with limited resources,
21     takes credit for some of the growth of the independent
22     film and video industry in the province.  At a time
23     when other broadcasters have been eliminating regional
24     programming deals, SCN has been steadily increasing its
25     commitment to regional programming in terms of total


 1     dollar amounts, percentage of SCN's programming budget,
 2     and total numbers of projects, in spite of having a
 3     smaller budget now than five years ago.
 4  61                   Unfortunately, SCN cannot afford to
 5     license or commission programming of interest to
 6     Saskatchewan alone.  Most of the programming produced
 7     in Saskatchewan ends up being tailored for export as
 8     well, and reflects less of ourselves.  Saskatchewan
 9     producers have to go to Toronto to make deals because,
10     except for SCN, they can't make them here.
11  62                   Although the Saskatchewan film and
12     video industry is growing, it is still very hard for
13     our producers to tell Saskatchewan stories and speak to
14     Saskatchewan needs.
15  63                   Even so, if it wasn't for SCN, there
16     would be considerably less regional television
17     production made or shown in Saskatchewan.  Not every
18     province has an SCN.  SCN deals with independent
19     producers from all over the country, and we know how
20     hard it is for many of them to put together deals on
21     programming in their own regions.
22  64                   SCN also has a strong commitment to
23     quality programming for children aged 2 to 12.  The
24     Knowledge Network in British Columbia, TeleQuébec and
25     TVOntario have similar commitments.  SCN and the other


 1     educational broadcasters offer programming to address
 2     the informational needs of seniors and aboriginal
 3     people, as well, but not every province has a Knowledge
 4     Network, an SCN, a TeleQuébec or a TVO.
 5  65                   Now when there are so many channel
 6     alternatives, it is important for CBC television, as
 7     Canada's public broadcaster, to focus on addressing the
 8     specific areas as defined in Section 3 of the
 9     Broadcasting Act, which are not currently being
10     provided by the commercial sectors.
11  66                   Let the commercial broadcasters look
12     after sports, drama and much entertainment programming. 
13     The CBC should be looking to address unfulfilled needs
14     in the areas of regional, informational, documentary,
15     and programming for portions of the audience not
16     currently being served.
17  67                   CBC television needs to develop a
18     model of programming that is a mix of common
19     information programming relevant to all Canadians, and
20     regional and/or community-specific informational
21     programming for specific audiences and needs. 
22     Resources need to be reallocated to address these
23     needs.
24  68                   Not all of Canada is located in
25     Toronto.  Other voices and perspectives need to be seen


 1     and heard.  CBC television should be actively pursuing
 2     regional partnerships in order to develop an ongoing
 3     supply of varied programming produced in all parts of
 4     the country.
 5  69                   MR. LAHAY:  Excuse me.  Could I ask
 6     you to finalize, please.  Your time has expired.
 7  70                   Thank you.
 8  71                   MR. BENNING:  SCN would suggest that
 9     the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation recast itself as
10     a source of information about itself rather than being
11     a traditional broadcaster or producer.  Building on the
12     "Constellation of Services" concept, CBC should develop
13     the infrastructure to operate a variety of distribution
14     outlet and vehicles, working with the independent
15     production sector and other players in the industry.
16  72                   In conclusion, SCN strongly affirms
17     the need for a healthy national broadcaster.  CBC radio
18     should be commended for doing the good job it is doing
19     and be given adequate resources to continue.  The
20     notion of merging CBC radio and television should be
21     avoided.
22  73                   CBC television needs to reinvent
23     itself, re-supply and re-populate the regions, and act
24     like Canada's public broadcaster.  Without a healthy
25     national public broadcaster and without regional and


 1     educational broadcasters, there is little hope of
 2     achieving the vision and goals for the Canadian
 3     broadcasting system.
 4  74                   Thank you.
 5  75                   MR. LAHAY:  Thank you very much.
 6  76                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 7     Benning and Mr. Gustin.  It is nice to be home.
 8  77                   Mr. Lahay.
 9                                                        1323
10  78                   MR. LAHAY:  Thank you very much.
11  79                   Our next presenter is Mr. Bruce
12     Steele.
14  80                   MR. STEELE:  Thank you. 
15     Commissioners, staff of the Commission, audience
16     members, associates, my name is Bruce Steele.  I am a
17     broadcast consultant.
18  81                   I have worked in private, public and
19     educational radio and television, both local and
20     national, for 35 years.  I am a staunch supporter of
21     public broadcasting, but I am truly saddened by what I
22     see as the inability of the CBC to perform its real
23     public function.
24  82                   I had the great good fortune to work
25     with Graham Spry in the late 1960s and through the


 1     1970s.  Spry ran the Canadian Broadcasting League, the
 2     last incarnation of the Canadian Radio League, the
 3     organization which he and Alan Plant founded in 1928
 4     with the sole purpose of mustering support for public
 5     broadcasting in Canada.
 6  83                   Neither man opposed private
 7     broadcasting; rather, they proposed a blend, as Spry
 8     would say, of the best of the American private model
 9     and the British public model.
10  84                   Let me pause briefly to assure you
11     that I am not about to re-tell tales of bygone days
12     when broadcasters were pioneers and drank their lunches
13     from vacuum tubes.  I am going to use some of Mr.
14     Spry's ideas to examine what I think is wrong with the
15     CBC.
16  85                   I will suggest steps that I think can
17     bring public broadcasting back to life.
18  86                   I evoked Spry's name because Canada's
19     public broadcasting began with him and because little
20     of substance has changed in this debate or in this
21     nation since 1928.  And I offer this as evidence.
22  87                   In Spry's time Canada was the
23     second-largest geopolitical entity on the planet.  Her
24     widely dispersed population totalled little more than
25     that of New York City and Los Angeles combined.  Her


 1     resources were found deep in a formidable hinterland, a
 2     great central plain, vast forest, shields and
 3     mountainous regions.  She is surrounded on three and
 4     one-third sides by water and has northern reaches so
 5     remote and cold as to be barely habitable.
 6  88                   Her two official and many unofficial
 7     languages are in daily use.  Her energy needs, industry
 8     costs, food, clothing and housing requirements, in fact
 9     her ways of working and living, are completely
10     different from our neighbour just to the south.  And
11     none of that has changed in 70 years.
12  89                   In Spry's heyday, as now, Canada's
13     private broadcasters were smitten with American
14     programs, which they rebroadcast willy-nilly and work
15     hard to emulate.  It was for fear that Canada would
16     become awash in a U.S. radio tsunami that federal
17     coffers opened in the midst of the depression to
18     underwrite a series of radio plays and presentations on
19     Canadian themes, using Canadian actors, Canadian
20     writers, Canadian technicians -- and a foreign
21     director.  But so it goes.
22  90                   Spry and Plant saw such programming
23     as being a vital part of building a natural culture, an
24     identity, but there were two more reasons, principles
25     which drove them to promote a public broadcast centre. 


 1     And the nurturing of Canadian culture leads from those
 2     principles.
 3  91                   First on the list of principles is
 4     the fact that the airwaves belong to the public of
 5     Canada, pure and simple.  They are a resource, like the
 6     water, the forests, the minerals.  They are part of the
 7     central nervous system of the country.  They pick
 8     messages from everywhere and distribute them to the
 9     nation.
10  92                   But fundamentally, they are owned by
11     the citizens.
12  93                   The second principle in public
13     broadcasting -- and I would like to thank whoever
14     printed this document (and it probably was me) for
15     losing the page I am trying to work from.  But if I'm
16     such a damned good broadcaster, I should be able to
17     remember this, shouldn't I.
18  94                   The second principle of this is that
19     the public broadcaster is there to provide a public
20     voice for the public, a voice in issues of concern to
21     all Canadians, a voice for people no matter where they
22     live in this country.
23  95                   Most of us are easily smitten by
24     technology rather than philosophy, and today's
25     technology leaves no one outside the footprint of media


 1     at any time of day or night.  I can personally tune in
 2     to a Regina radio station after midnight and hear the
 3     most listened to radio broadcaster in history.  Art
 4     Bell speaks live to over 10 million listeners from a
 5     bedroom of his home on the high desert in Nevada.  It
 6     is amazing.
 7  96                   Just turn the dial and the CBC offers
 8     programs from public broadcasters around the world. 
 9     Radio Two offers a world of music.  CBC television and
10     Newsworld offer the world itself.  It is fantastic.
11  97                   But I know as a fact that day or
12     night, no matter which CBC service I tune to, I will
13     not find one radio or television series which is
14     produced in Saskatchewan and offered by the English
15     language public broadcast service to me and other
16     Canadians.
17  98                   This lack of voice is the case in far
18     too many of this nation's regions.
19  99                   Public broadcasting is not just about
20     seeing and hearing; it is about being seen and being
21     heard, whether you live in Toronto or Tuktoyaktuk, in
22     Montreal or Medicine Hat.  It is about Canadians
23     talking to each other.
24  100                  The promise of public broadcasting is
25     the promise of public voice.  That is the issue which


 1     is at the heart of any discussion of the future of the
 2     CBC.  Today's CBC is in danger of becoming the
 3     antithesis of that vision.
 4  101                  Before I left Toronto in the mid
 5     1980s, I was a consultant to the Broadcast Centre
 6     Development Project.  Part of my contract was to help
 7     to find the facilities required by radio in the new
 8     broadcast centre, the building which replaced 26 other
 9     CBC buildings in Toronto.
10  102                  One day a directive came from above
11     to plan as if the entire system, 24 hours a day, seven
12     days a week had to come from Toronto.  I believe that
13     everyone involved at the time considered this idea to
14     represent the worst case scenario.
15  103                  Fifteen years later the imagined
16     scenario is coming true.  More and more of the format
17     and content of the few remaining local shows on Radio
18     One is defined in, and provided by, Toronto.
19  104                  Rumour has it that noon and afternoon
20     shows will soon become national feeds.  Savings will go
21     to launch a new youth oriented Radio Three network.
22  105                  Radio Two affords most regions almost
23     no local presence or input.  Radio Two's goal is to
24     increase audience in the largest urban centres.  Aside
25     from news, CBC regional television in most of Canada's


 1     regions has few, or no, local programming
 2     opportunities.
 3  106                  As its funding is cut, the CBC's top
 4     corporate managers focus resources on best bang for the
 5     buck.  Network production and co-production is done in
 6     two or three centres.  This again further diminishes
 7     the chance that Saskatchewan, or other regional voices,
 8     will be heard around the nation.  But further, it means
 9     that we can hardly find a way to speak to ourselves on
10     the regional service of the public broadcaster.
11  107                  CBC television is proud of being a
12     prime purveyor of Canadian-made programs, mostly
13     produced in Toronto, Vancouver and Halifax, and this is
14     a laudable achievement for a broadcaster.  But for
15     Canada's public broadcaster, it is only the base line. 
16     In a satellite era, with services available from around
17     the planet, what else would we expect the national
18     public broadcaster to broadcast besides Canadian
19     programs?
20  108                  CBC says it provides alternative
21     content.  But as more channels come into our homes
22     every year, alternatives to mainstream broadcasts are
23     all over the dial.
24  109                  As seen on the screen, CBC mirrors
25     the function, commercial content, promotional form and


 1     programming style of the mainstream private networks
 2     and sometimes beats them at their own game.
 3  110                  Is that the purpose of a public
 4     broadcast system?  I don't believe so.
 5  111                  The need for a regionally-driven
 6     non-commercial public broadcaster has not diminished
 7     since 1928.  It only increases as signals increase.  I
 8     believe CBC management has become confused and has
 9     misplaced its mission and vision.  It has forgotten who
10     owns it and who it serves.  Its job is not to create of
11     our public broadcaster a Canadian voice; its job is to
12     give Canadians a voice on their public broadcaster.
13  112                  No matter what its present
14     circumstances, CBC is too valuable a tool to lose.  If
15     Chrysler can be salvaged, so can the corporation.  The
16     CBC just needs some retooling.
17  113                  What can be done so the corporation
18     and other institutions can fulfil the promise of public
19     broadcasting in Canada?  Federal legislators and
20     regulators must clearly delineate between the roles and
21     structures of the public and private sectors.  The
22     public broadcaster must be expected to facilitate and
23     encourage a diversity of expression by, and between,
24     regions as its prime directive, recognizing that in
25     this diversity is the strength and majesty of Canada. 


 1     It must have the resources to do this.
 2  114                  Regional CBC stations must be
 3     expected to provide broadcast time for regional
 4     producers, and such programs should be geared to
 5     achieve eventual national exposure provided by the
 6     network.
 7  115                  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  Hear! Hear!
 8  116                  MR. STEELE:  Regulators must
 9     recognize the diversity of Canada's regions and make
10     sure that regulations are sufficiently dynamic to suit
11     regional circumstance, as well as encourage provincial
12     and regional public broadcasters and partnerships for
13     public broadcasting.
14  117                  Funding agencies must be expected to
15     participate in production of regional programming and
16     encouraged by knowing that there will be national
17     exposure for theses programs.
18  118                  Finally, the CBC will have to remain
19     available to its viewers, no matter how its viewers get
20     their television signals.
21  119                  Let me conclude.
22  120                  Lately there has been much goodwill
23     in evidence regarding regional culture and values.  In
24     an era consumed with issues of the global marketplace,
25     it is comforting to see that Canadians have had time to


 1     care for what is theirs alone.
 2  121                  Heritage Canada came here two weeks
 3     ago looking for the pulse of Saskatchewan's cultural
 4     institutions.  I gave two messages to the politicians
 5     on that panel:  No. 1, that Section 3 of the Broadcast
 6     Act stands sentinel for a promise which is not being
 7     fulfilled; and no. 2, that to fulfil the dream of
 8     hearing voices of Canadians from all regions on public
 9     broadcasting will be to experience a new form of
10     culture in a modern democracy, a form a culture which
11     widely promotes the many and diverse values and
12     beliefs, achievements and visions of a nation and its
13     citizens.
14  122                  How much is that kind of promotion of
15     self worth to the Canadian Federation at the turn of
16     the millennium?  Messrs. Spry and Plant knew the answer
17     to that question in 1928.
18  123                  I think it is time to revisit their
19     vision.
20  124                  I thank you.
21  125                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Mr. Steele.
22  126                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
23     Steele.
24                                                        1340
25  127                  MR. LAHAY:  Our next presenter is


 1     Lorne Cherneski.
 2  128                  I would reiterate to everybody to
 3     please try to watch your ten-minute time limit.
 4  129                  Thank you.
 6  130                  MR. CHERNESKI:  Madam Chairman,
 7     Commissioners, my background is in education.  I taught
 8     school, firstly in this province, and subsequently
 9     moved to Manitoba where I taught for part of the time
10     with the Department of Indian Affairs, the federal
11     department, and then finished off my career teaching at
12     a provincial school division in Swan River, Manitoba.
13  131                  My views might be considered quite
14     parochial, maybe even radical, but I think I see some
15     of these ideas about public broadcasting from the point
16     of view of a retired teacher.
17  132                  I have broken up my address into four
18     sections.
19  133                  The first one:  Reasons for
20     Sustaining the CBC.
21  134                  My understanding is that the creation
22     of the CBC was a reaction to the widespread
23     availability of American broadcasts and a need to
24     expand Canadian broadcasting.  A major goal in that
25     effort was to promote a Canadian identity.


 1  135                  If that need was great over six
 2     decades ago, I believe that need is even greater today. 
 3     There is a deluge of American culture and values
 4     surging across the border into Canada through
 5     television and other media.  Because we have a smaller
 6     population, and for other reasons, we as Canadians are
 7     in danger of being overwhelmed by this cultural
 8     onslaught.  In order to maintain our identity we must
 9     continue to produce, and even expand, production of
10     programs that reflect our Canadian reality.
11  136                  If we flag in our determination to
12     maintain our Canadian identity, it will be only a
13     matter of time before the majority of our Canadian
14     population will identify with the cultural aspirations
15     of the United States.  If this happens, there will be
16     little resistance to massive economic union, and
17     eventual political union, with the United States.
18  137                  In the past, Canadians have been
19     warned of the possible loss of our sovereignty by
20     various academics and leaders.  Former Prime Minister
21     Trudeau, in his book "With a Bang Not a Whimper",
22     acknowledged that Canada might not survive as a nation
23     if it could not solve the problems facing it.
24  138                  Quite a few years ago, an American
25     government official -- I think it was John Foster


 1     Dollis(ph) -- said:  There are two ways one country
 2     could gain control of another country.  The first way
 3     was to use military force; the second way was to simply
 4     gain control of the other country's economy.
 5  139                  I contend that the relationship
 6     between Canada and the United States may very well be a
 7     perfect example of the latter case.  I believe that
 8     losing our Canadian identity and adopting the cultural
 9     values of the United States would be the first step in
10     the eventual dissolution of our nation.
11  140                  When our nation was created in 1867,
12     it blocked the American aspirations for manifest
13     destiny in North America.  It took tremendous resolve
14     and great expenditure of effort on the part of our
15     Fathers of Confederation to create the new political
16     entity called Canada.  We, as Canadians, should remain
17     vigilant and guard against losing what our forefathers
18     achieved.
19  141                  The second part is:  Funding of the
20     CBC.
21  142                  While I realize that these CRTC
22     hearings were not meant to be a forum for discussions
23     of CBC funding, it must be recognized that CBC cannot
24     properly carry out its mandate of promoting a Canadian
25     identity if sufficient funding is not available.


 1  143                  My understanding is that at its
 2     inception, the CBC was funded through a tax base. 
 3     However, as time progressed funding, for various
 4     reasons, was diminished.  This led to a reliance on
 5     advertising to support some broadcasting.  This
 6     dependence on advertising has led to some problems,
 7     such as promotion of undesirable programs.
 8  144                  Why should not the CBC obtain
 9     adequate funding in order to promote its programs?  I
10     do not buy the argument that Canada does not have the
11     resources to fund its broadcasting.  When a necessity
12     is truly recognized and understood, the money for that
13     need can somehow be found.  It is more a question of
14     perception and attitude rather than of means.
15  145                  A couple of examples where Canada did
16     not hesitate to provide funding when the need arose
17     are:
18  146                  (1) the completion of the
19     transcontinental Canadian Pacific Railway in 1885;
20  147                  (2) the war efforts in both World
21     Wars.
22  148                  Furthermore, Canada is not a poor
23     nation.  It is an uncrowded nation, blessed with
24     immense amounts of natural resources that are the envy
25     of the world.  If we, as a nation, are unable to profit


 1     from this abundance, perhaps it is due to the inability
 2     of our leaders to manage our economy properly for the
 3     benefit of all Canadians.
 4  149                  One possible reason for the drastic
 5     cuts in CBC funding may be because of the criticism the
 6     CBC has sometimes directed at the leaders of our
 7     government.
 8  150                  In the March 8, 1999 Regina
 9     Leader-Post article entitled "Time to Restore CBC's
10     Funding", Southam News columnist Lawrence Martin points
11     out --
12  151                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Cherneski,
13     could I ask you to summarize, please.  We are running
14     consistently over time.
15  152                  MR. CHERNESKI:  I have two more
16     sections.  I will try to finish this section quickly.
17  153                  Lawrence Martin points out that Prime
18     Minister Chrétien has been hostile to the CBC for
19     several years.  The reason appears to be that the CBC
20     reported, sometimes negatively, on the Prime Minister's
21     less than stellar performances.  If this assessment is
22     correct, our Prime Minister should exhibit some
23     statesmanship and overlook any slights he has suffered,
24     real or imagined.  Hopefully, then, the role of the CBC
25     would be maintained and with proper funding, perhaps


 1     even augmented.
 2  154                  I will skip one part and go on to the
 3     last one.
 4  155                  Some Ideas on the Future Role of the
 5     CBC in Broadcasting:  There is a marked decline in the
 6     moral standards that broadcasting used to adhere to. 
 7     Some programs produced by private broadcasters are
 8     saturated with sexual references.  Some might call it
 9     smut.
10  156                  Various talk shows seem to depend
11     upon such material in order to command viewership.  The
12     CBC should maintain an adherence to the higher ethic,
13     both in radio and in television.  I am also confident
14     that if a referendum were held on the matter, most
15     Canadians would be in favour.
16  157                  The standard that the CBC should
17     observe in the production of their programs is
18     suitability for family viewing.
19  158                  With the torrent of Americana coming
20     across the border through various media, Canadians are
21     being subjected to a portrayal of American history,
22     heroes and exploits.  In time, in absence of strong
23     Canadian images, Canadians, especially the younger
24     generation, may come to accept American images as the
25     ones to identify with.


 1  159                  Therefore, I believe it is vital that
 2     the CBC produce programs for radio and television that
 3     highlight events in Canadian history, the lives or our
 4     heroes and the exploits of Canadians.
 5  160                  One excellent TV program, "The Life
 6     and Times", has produced admirable biographies on
 7     notable Canadians, such as Anne Murray, Farley Mowat,
 8     Glenn Gould, W.O. Mitchell and others.
 9  161                  For future programs, I would like to
10     suggest that personalities and events could be drawn
11     from the distant past as well as the present.  In the
12     former category, the fur trade, the French-English
13     conflict and Canada's role in both World Wars offer
14     many opportunities to inform and remind Canadians of
15     their background and identity.
16  162                  Canada has an exciting history and
17     there is a gold mine of material waiting to be used.
18  163                  My purpose in this presentation today
19     is to state my belief that the CBC should continue to
20     be an instrument to inform Canadians of their heritage
21     and to promote Canadian identity.
22  164                  Thank you.
23     --- Applause / Applaudissements
24  165                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
25     Cherneski.


 1  166                  Mr. Secretary.
 2                                                        1345
 3  167                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 4  168                  Hon. Bernard Wiens, please.
 6  169                  HON. BERNARD WIENS:  Good afternoon,
 7     Madam Chairperson and Commissioner Wylie.  Welcome to
 8     Saskatchewan.
 9  170                  I am Bernie Wiens, Minister of
10     Intergovernmental and Aboriginal Affairs with
11     responsibility for telecommunications and broadcasting
12     policy in Saskatchewan.
13  171                  With me today are my Deputy Minister
14     Brent Cotter and Senior Advisor on Telecommunications
15     and Broadcast Policy, Bob Hershe.
16  172                  Before I begin, I want to thank the
17     Commission for holding this hearing in Regina.  In
18     fact, I think it is especially apt that you are holding
19     this hearing here in Saskatchewan, a place that has
20     been called by people like Peter Gzowski the most
21     "Canadian" of provinces.  So a good place to come.
22  173                  And for people who don't want it to
23     come that far, I think there is recognition that
24     Saskatchewan is the home of much of the compassion for
25     which Canada is known and which makes Canada the best


 1     place in the world in which to live.
 2  174                  In the past the CBC has ensured that
 3     the people, the events, and the traditions in every
 4     part of Canada -- whether it is Saskatchewan or
 5     Labrador or Montreal -- were known to every other part
 6     of Canada.  That is what has made the CBC a truly
 7     national broadcaster.
 8  175                  To restore what has been lost and to
 9     maintain what remains of this national relevance, the
10     CBC must listen to, must represent, and must broadcast
11     voices from every part of Canada, including those from
12     Saskatchewan.
13  176                  Today, I will explore three general
14     themes that speak to the need for a strong regional
15     presence in the CBC:
16  177                  First, how well is the CBC fulfilling
17     its role as the national public broadcaster serving the
18     public on a community, provincial and national level?
19  178                  Second, what type of programming
20     should be provided by CBC radio and television, given
21     the growing number of alternative broadcasters?
22  179                  And third, and most importantly, in
23     the new millennium how should the CBC begin to fulfil
24     its role?
25  180                  I approach these themes not only as a


 1     Minister of the Crown, but as a farmer who has spent
 2     many hours and years on the tractor listening to the
 3     CBC as a welcome companion.
 4  181                  Before we begin to talk about the
 5     future of the CBC, I would like to compliment the men
 6     and women who work for the various divisions of this
 7     broadcaster in Saskatchewan.  Whether they work in
 8     English or French, or in radio or television, I firmly
 9     believe that they have demonstrated over and over their
10     commitment to this province, their creativity in
11     meeting new challenges, and their ability to maximize
12     the resources available to them when they have been
13     diminished.
14  182                  While we may be advocating changes to
15     the CBC, we in no way wish to detract from the
16     professional contribution that these people continue to
17     make to our province.
18  183                  Is the CBC performing its role as a
19     public broadcaster?
20  184                  Any analysis of how we believe the
21     CBC is performing today as a public broadcaster
22     inevitably focuses on the recent strategies adopted by
23     the corporation to accommodate it $400 million in
24     budget reductions.
25  185                  It is our belief that the directions


 1     taken by the CBC to cancel or sharply reduce almost all
 2     provincial and local information and entertainment
 3     programming for both radio and television service
 4     negates, by definition, the CBC's role as a national
 5     public broadcaster.
 6  186                  These strategies have failed to
 7     consider the CBC's fundamental mandate to, and I quote:
 8                            "...reflect Canada and its
 9                            regions to national and regional
10                            audiences, while serving the
11                            special needs of those regions."
12  187                  The challenge confronting the
13     broadcast sector, and the agencies that allocate public
14     funds to support this sector, is in ensuring that
15     Canadian content is reflective of all of Canada,
16     including the Prairies and Atlantic provinces, and that
17     it is created, distributed, and accessible by Canadians
18     in a variety of ways.
19  188                  In order to accomplish this, a
20     healthy and thriving production community outside the
21     purview of the CBC's corporate environment is also
22     required.  It is this larger community that will, in
23     turn, enable Canada to reap the benefits of cultural
24     and economic diversity and the jobs created by this
25     sector.


 1  189                  The greatly reduced provincial and
 2     community representation by CBC television impedes the
 3     development of activities that contribute to the
 4     creation of Canadian content, reduces the viability of
 5     local production industries, and reduces the reliance
 6     of this institution to regional audiences.
 7  190                  An "all Canadian" television schedule
 8     has little meaning for our Canadian identity, or for
 9     jobs in the regional film and video industry, if
10     various parts of Canada are systematically excluded
11     from contributing to that schedule.
12  191                  While becoming "all Canadian", CBC
13     television has also become less relevant to the average
14     Canadian.  Less than 10 per cent of Canadians now watch
15     CBC television and, as new television channels come on
16     stream, we have no doubt that this percentage will
17     continue to decline.
18  192                  Canadian programming must represent
19     the views of all Canadians and must make a contribution
20     to their daily lives.  If the information and
21     entertainment provided is not relevant to their daily
22     lives, viewers will turn to other broadcast sources,
23     inevitably turning away from the CBC.
24  193                  We contend that by systematically
25     starving the local stations to feed the centre, CBC and


 1     SRC television have reduced their ability to fulfil
 2     their obligations under the Broadcasting Act:  namely,
 3     to produce programs in the regions that reflect their
 4     unique characters, while providing both a vehicle for
 5     content delivery and a stimulus to local cultural
 6     industries.
 7  194                  The shift to a centralized
 8     infrastructure by CBC television has reduced contact
 9     with the broader cultural base of Canada and its
10     remarkable diversity of people and perspectives.
11  195                  In contrast, the CBC and SRC radio
12     networks have demonstrated that it is possible to
13     incorporate local participation within a national
14     context, and they have provided a vital communications
15     and cultural link between all Canadians.  Radio,
16     despite its budget cuts -- which were taken contrary to
17     the recommendations made in the Juneau Report -- has
18     continued with a mix of national and local programming
19     on its daily schedule.
20  196                  As examples, in English radio they
21     have raised awareness of our farming issues by holding
22     national programs like "Cross-Country Checkup" here in
23     Humboldt; they have maintained a strong First Nation's
24     presence with "Keewatin Country", and they have
25     supported Saskatchewan Arts through "Gallery".


 1  197                  These programs have benefited
 2     listeners in Saskatchewan, as well as those across
 3     Canada.
 4  198                  Likewise, SRC radio has continued to
 5     bring national francophone programming to Saskatchewan,
 6     while covering local community events across Canada. 
 7     SRC's coverage of the changes in community governance
 8     is only one example of how this division of the CBC
 9     assists in maintaining the cultural identity of the
10     Fransaskois at a time when this support is critically
11     needed.
12  199                  This mix has ensured that both
13     English and French language radio have maintained their
14     relevancy to the people of Saskatchewan, and to Canada
15     as a whole.
16  200                  What type of programming should be
17     provided by CBC radio and television?
18  201                  The relatively low production cost of
19     radio programming has allowed both CBC's and SRC's
20     radio networks to create a mix of relevant programming
21     to each region of Canada.  In addition to the core
22     community, national and international news, these radio
23     networks have retained a unique blend of national and
24     local programs.
25  202                  In Saskatchewan, for example, we can


 1     have noon hour radio programming which deals in large
 2     part with relevant agricultural news, such as grain
 3     prices, road conditions and changes that affect our
 4     lives and the lives of farmers.  Our sister province of
 5     Alberta, while having the same base of national
 6     programming, has local information which focuses more
 7     on the needs of their individual residents, be they
 8     sugar beet farmers or workers in the oil and gas
 9     industry.
10  203                  CBC and SRC's radio networks are good
11     examples of effective local participation within a
12     national context, and they have provided a vital
13     communications and cultural link between all Canadians. 
14     We believe the public has clearly and strongly
15     expressed a desire to retain and strengthen the radio
16     networks.
17  204                  We would ask the CRTC to do
18     everything in its power to ensure that this type of
19     radio programming, in English and French, is
20     strengthened.  It cannot be allowed to be consumed by
21     the more glamorous and very much more expensive
22     television division.
23  205                  In spite of the concerns I have
24     raised, we believe that CBC television continues to
25     have an important role to play in fostering Canada's


 1     national identity.  Canadian content must permeate as
 2     many broadcast venues as possible in order to reach as
 3     many diverse audiences as possible.
 4  206                  This will require strong linkages in
 5     collaboration with private broadcasters, educational
 6     broadcasters and independent producers, as well as the
 7     aggressive pursuit of air time on the growing number of
 8     Canadian and foreign specialty channels.
 9  207                  Over the past five years, and most
10     recently with the approval of the Aboriginal Peoples
11     Television Network, the CRTC has granted licences to
12     numerous specialty channels with a Canadian focus.  It
13     is our understanding that the CRTC has almost 50 more
14     television licence applications still before it.
15  208                  Television, like new media such as
16     the Internet, has continued to fragment audiences as
17     programs cater to ever more specialized needs.  One
18     might argue that rather than being a force for Canadian
19     unity, the growing multi-channel universe is in fact
20     reinforcing our differences.
21  209                  Within this changing milieu, the CBC
22     television has adopted a very traditional commercial
23     model in attempting to compete with private networks
24     for ratings with sports and blockbuster-type dramatic
25     programming.  While touting this "all Canadian"


 1     schedule, a large portion of its programming continues
 2     to be very generic.  Those programs, while produced
 3     primarily by Canadians, continue to have a look and a
 4     feel that is modelled on programming that is for sale
 5     from the United States.
 6  210                  Given the ever growing number of
 7     private broadcasters, all with Canadian content
 8     requirements, the Province of Saskatchewan is beginning
 9     to question the value of this approach by the CBC.  The
10     consequence of CBC's current strategy is that it will
11     become lost in the myriad of channels on our dials.
12  211                  Instead, we would agree with the
13     former Chair of the CBC, Patrick Watson, that the focus
14     of the CBC should be on creating television that
15     private networks cannot or will not support.  The focus
16     of a public broadcaster should be on the public rather
17     than on private interests.
18  212                  Private broadcasters have
19     demonstrated their desire to show Canadian sporting
20     events and to develop dramas.  At the same time, they
21     have failed to produce the range of documentaries
22     needed to learn about the diversity and history of
23     Canada, to support the life-long learning needs of our
24     population, or to explore real health needs.
25  213                  It is this type of programming,


 1     coupled with a continued strong emphasis on news and
 2     current events from a Canadian perspective, to which
 3     the CBC television should focus its resources.  This
 4     may not generate ratings, but it will certainly serve
 5     the public, which pays for this service.
 6  214                  How should the CBC fulfil its role in
 7     the new millennium?
 8  215                  Ensuring a Canadian presence,
 9     particularly one that reflects all regions, is the
10     cornerstone of the Broadcasting Act and of Canadian
11     cultural policy.
12  216                  To accomplish this, it is essential
13     to provide fair and equitable public funding to the
14     CBC's local production centres and to pursue the
15     development of a decentralized infrastructure.  The
16     availability of Canadian content that reflects all of
17     Canada's cultures is inextricably linked to a healthy,
18     robust cultural and production industry across Canada
19     that encompasses film and video producers; artists,
20     writers and talent; new media software developers; and
21     the telecommunications and information technology
22     sectors developing new information services and
23     products for the information highway.
24  217                  Public funds should stimulate
25     innovation in the broadcasting, new media, and


 1     telecommunications sectors.  This activity must be
 2     grounded in the regions with targeted funding
 3     envelopes.  This approach allows for the development of
 4     local content that reflects regional culture and
 5     supports local economic development.
 6  218                  It is with this context that
 7     Saskatchewan makes the following recommendations:
 8  219                  First, as we noted previously, the
 9     CBC and SRC's unique blend of radio programming should
10     be fostered and strengthened as much as possible.  It
11     is these divisions of the CBC which epitomize Canadian
12     public broadcasting.
13  220                  These networks have established a
14     service niche which no other private radio network has
15     duplicated.  These networks truly have an all-Canadian
16     schedule which represents all areas of Canada. 
17     Regardless of the new delivery technologies arising in
18     the new millennium, radio will continue to be a strong
19     force in the everyday lives of Canadians.
20  221                  Again, we ask the CRTC to assist,
21     where possible, in ensuring that radio programming
22     resource allocations within the CBC remain sufficient
23     to ensure growth, sustainability, and continued local
24     representation.
25  222                  Secondly, CBC television should focus


 1     its programming on the unique contribution that CBC
 2     alone can offer to Canadian culture and identity: that
 3     is, to inform and to enlighten.  This can be
 4     accomplished by providing Canadians with documentaries
 5     and analysis of complex news and current affairs from a
 6     Canadian perspective, recognizing that this perspective
 7     cannot be generated wholly within one region or
 8     province.
 9  223                  In addition, we would propose that
10     the CRTC establish terms of operation for the CBC which
11     would ensure a balanced and equitable approach to the
12     distribution of licences for individual productions. 
13     The residents of provinces such as Saskatchewan should
14     not be excluded from providing their individual
15     perspectives because national funds are targeted on
16     blockbuster dramas.
17  224                  In exploring alternative delivery
18     approaches, it is worthwhile to examine the success of
19     CBC's cable-distributed channels Newsworld and RDI, the
20     French language cable network equivalent.  Despite
21     cable subscriber fees, both networks have continued to
22     retain a respectable audience share.  The blend of
23     cost-effective programming that focuses on news
24     coverage, current affairs, and documentaries showcases
25     what CBC does best: producing programs that provide


 1     in-depth analysis of Canadian and global news and
 2     issues from a distinctly Canadian perspective.
 3  225                  National and international news
 4     coverage, current affairs and documentaries, in
 5     combination with strong local and regional input and
 6     co-production of other genres of programming, have the
 7     potential to make the CBC and SRC networks more
 8     relevant to Canadians than they are using their current
 9     general programming approach.
10  226                  In addition, we believe that the CBC
11     also has a role to play as a partner in the promotion
12     and distribution of Canadian films in a multi-channel
13     environment.
14  227                  Eliminating some of the duplication
15     between the various divisions of CBC's television news
16     and current affairs operations would further enable
17     Newsworld and RDI to provide timely, effective and
18     efficient coverage of issues unparalleled by any other
19     broadcaster.
20  228                  A new and highly focused mandate for
21     CBC and SRC television, attuned to current fiscal
22     realities and based on a Newsworld and RDI programming
23     direction, would provide all Canadians with a
24     value-added unique service that meets, in full measure,
25     the goals and aspirations of the Broadcasting Act.


 1  229                  Thirdly, we would ask the CRTC to
 2     encourage the CBC to expand its presence on the
 3     Internet.  Traditional forms of regulation, such as 
 4     content quotas, are ineffective in creating a Canadian
 5     presence in areas of electronically delivered new media
 6     such as the Internet.
 7  230                  As the Federal Government stated in
 8     its recent strategy paper on electronic commerce:
 9                            "New media can be a new vehicle
10                            to strengthen, not threaten,
11                            Canada's culture, economy and
12                            social institutions."
13  231                  A Canadian presence on the Internet
14     can only be achieved through the existence of quality
15     information and "channels".  We believe that the CBC's
16     current forays into Internet delivery have been very
17     successful.  The ability to download video and audio
18     clips of the latest national and regional news,
19     whenever it is convenient for the consumer, is an
20     important service which can only grow and prosper.
21  232                  In conclusion, I would like to
22     reiterate Saskatchewan's belief in the importance of
23     maintaining a strong Canadian public broadcaster. 
24     While the role of the CBC will change over time as it
25     adapts to new consumer demands and to alternate


 1     delivery technologies, the CBC's fundamental mandate
 2     to -- and I quote -- "reflect Canada and its regions to
 3     national and regional audiences, while serving the
 4     special needs of those regions", remains as important
 5     today as when it was first drafted in the Broadcasting
 6     Act.
 7  233                  Thank you. We look forward to
 8     continuation of the discussions.
 9     --- Applause / Applaudissements
10  234                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
11     Wiens.
12  235                  Mr. Secretary.
13                                                        1400
14  236                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
15  237                  Steven Onda, please.
17  238                  MR. ONDA:  Thank you.  Good
18     afternoon, Commissioners, staff, audience, Minister --
19     the whole gang.
20  239                  I am not as formally prepared.  I
21     thought that I may earn my place at this table because
22     I am an independent producer, and have been so for 15
23     years here in Saskatchewan.  I am proud to say that our
24     company has produced material for not only
25     Saskatchewan, but for Canada and literally the world in


 1     that period of time.
 2  240                  All those stories, be it in
 3     documentaries or dramas or light informational,
 4     originated here in the far off and lost hinterland of
 5     Saskatchewan.  Yet, by our partnerships with our
 6     broadcasters, notably the CBC, we are able to find
 7     audiences beyond Saskatchewan for that material, and of
 8     recent beyond Canada's borders.
 9  241                  I think you will hear over and over
10     again support for the CBC and for a national
11     broadcaster.  More and more, our nation is defined by
12     how it perceives itself; and without CBC providing us
13     that opportunity of Canadian input, it is hard to
14     maintain the perception of a country.  It is critical,
15     the CBC.
16  242                  I also realize that the
17     recommendations that come forward often are loud to say
18     that we need more funding for the CBC, we need more
19     Canadian programming on CBC, we need to be more a
20     public broadcaster.
21  243                  I support more of a hybrid approach,
22     because you cannot be asking for something and taking
23     away that very entity's capability at the same time.  I
24     understand that half of the funding of the budget for
25     television at the CBC does still come from its revenues


 1     in selling ad inventory.  This is a fact.
 2  244                  So if you want more Canadian
 3     programming and you want it to be less a carrier of
 4     commercial inventory advertising, the two just don't
 5     add up.
 6  245                  I see more a model where a hybrid
 7     example, if you may, is where we have blocks in the
 8     schedule where there is no advertising.
 9  246                  For instance, one place that is very
10     under-served, I feel, is in the youth programming where
11     we are looking at the after school slot.  Right now,
12     CBC limits itself because it wishes to sell advertising
13     in that area.  It limits itself to its audience; it
14     does not program for under 12-year-old viewers.
15  247                  Whereas in the evening slots, where
16     advertising around the supper hour and in the early
17     prime time can provide a real stream of revenue -- and
18     that's where we see the stream of revenue coming from
19      -- let's not take that away.
20  248                  The regional presence has gone away,
21     most definitely, and the Commissioners themselves must
22     be more than aware of the changes at CBC.
23  249                  What used to happen was that there
24     was little mix of programming slots.  Again, air time I
25     see very much as inventory.  Right now, we are back to


 1     24 hours of air time for CBC television English
 2     services.
 3  250                  At one time, CBC was quite innovative
 4     in finding more than 24 hours in the day.  How they did
 5     that was something called metronet or regional slots,
 6     which allowed for regional programming to play to its
 7     regional audience.  Should that program be of strength
 8     and interest to the nation, it would find its way into
 9     the national schedule.
10  251                  Those regional slots or metronet seem
11     to have almost totally disappeared, leaving us
12     half-hour slots after hockey games nowadays -- if there
13     is no overtime.
14  252                  As a practical simple suggestion, we
15     would like to see CBC find its innovative way of
16     creating more than 24 hours of programming in a day.
17  253                  The growth that has happened across
18     our nation -- I look at Saskatchewan as a microcosm. 
19     Ten years ago we were not really providing a lot of
20     material on the independent sector.  We were seeing
21     more material, relying more on the plant itself here,
22     notably in Regina.
23  254                  What has happened now is that it is
24     much more sophisticated.  As a public broadcaster, CBC
25     works closely with private entities and has become very


 1     innovative in that area.  I salute them in their
 2     willingness to co-exist, co-work and co-produce.
 3  255                  I think a lot of what I would like to
 4     say has been said better by Mr. Steele, the Minister,
 5     Mr. Benning, and other presenters, so I won't go into
 6     general statements but wanted to pinpoint two or three
 7     small ideas that I hope will begin to boil into that
 8     soup of suggestions and responses that you are
 9     receiving.
10  256                  Unless the Commissioners have any
11     questions for me, I think I have completed.
12  257                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
13     Onda.
14  258                  Mr. Secretary.
15                                                        1408
16  259                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
17  260                  Chris Axworthy, please.
19  261                  MR. AXWORTHY:  Madam Chair and
20     Commissioners, it is a pleasure for me to add the voice
21     of welcome from Saskatchewan to you, and to thank you
22     for coming to our community to hear our views.
23  262                  I assure you I will stick within my
24     ten minutes, primarily for two reasons:  One is that I
25     have one relatively simple and straightforward point to


 1     make; and the second is that I have a plane to catch at
 2     3 o'clock.
 3  263                  My message, as I say, is relatively
 4     straightforward but comes both as a Member of
 5     Parliament for Saskatoon and a citizen in Saskatoon,
 6     and primarily deals with the closure, now eight or nine
 7     years ago, of both CBC TV local programming, but
 8     primarily newscasting from Saskatoon.
 9  264                  At the time that I made a
10     presentation in Ottawa to your colleagues, the same
11     closure was taking place in a number of other
12     communities.  I can remember at least Windsor, Calgary
13     and I think Victoria.  Each person who spoke on that
14     question pointed out -- in fact, predicted -- what
15     happened:  that not only would the citizens of, in my
16     case, Saskatoon be ill-served by such a move -- an
17     effort to provide newscasting for the whole province
18     solely from Regina -- but also audiences would decline
19     significantly.
20  265                  Both of those things happened.
21  266                  That decision was, as you will
22     recall, made ostensibly as a result of significant
23     budget cuts -- and CBC has undoubtedly suffered
24     severely from that -- but also more importantly made as
25     a result of decisions in Toronto by the CBC to


 1     implement its budget cuts at the expense of the
 2     regions.
 3  267                  I don't think I need to go into very
 4     much detail about what took place; but not only were
 5     there important implications for employees who were
 6     fired just before Christmas, there were other major
 7     negative spinoffs in our community too.  Business
 8     suffered in various ways, but in particular there was a
 9     significant negative impact on the cultural and social
10     life of our community.
11  268                  And when I say "our community", I
12     mean not only Saskatoon, but northern and central
13     Saskatchewan also.
14  269                  We, as many have said, live in a very
15     large country and all agree that CBC and SRC helps us
16     to find what it means to be a Canadian and helps us to
17     explain ourselves to other Canadians and explain other
18     Canadians to ourselves.  We in the regions and in the
19     smaller communities must have the opportunity to
20     contribute our distinctive voice in that mix.
21  270                  Minister Wiens mentioned the
22     significant contribution to much of what defines Canada
23     coming from Saskatchewan, and it is therefore somewhat
24     ironic that one of the regional cuts should be so
25     significant to our province and thereby, by


 1     implication, to the country.
 2  271                  The identity of our communities,
 3     Saskatoon or Saskatchewan, or indeed any other
 4     community for that matter, cannot, as we know, be
 5     manufactured in Toronto and broadcast to the rest of
 6     the nation.  It must be woven from many threads, from
 7     many centres reflecting the important and valuable
 8     diversity in our country.
 9  272                  It is of course my view, not only as
10     a Member of Parliament from Saskatoon but as a resident
11     of Saskatoon, that there is more Saskatoon can do,
12     should CBC permit it to do so, in this regard.
13  273                  Our artists, our community
14     organizations, our people have therefore had a greater
15     difficulty in having their voices heard, not only in
16     Saskatoon and northern and central Saskatchewan, but
17     also by the rest of the country, and also receiving
18     from the rest of the country news and views through the
19     sieve of Saskatoon presenters and reporters.
20  274                  We have extremely well-qualified,
21     capable and creative personnel in Saskatoon who feed in
22     to the provincial and national network; but what we
23     don't have since those major cuts is a newscaster in
24     Saskatoon, an anchor in Saskatoon presenting those
25     views to Saskatoon people.


 1  275                  It might come as a surprise to many,
 2     but people in Saskatoon still talk of Kathy Little, who
 3     was the anchor for many, many years in Saskatoon, and
 4     talk of her in terms of a significant loss to our
 5     community.  It was more than just a newscast; it was a
 6     reflection of our community to all of us and from all
 7     of us.
 8  276                  I would also reiterate the points
 9     made by all those who came before -- and I suspect by
10     all those who will come after -- as to the importance
11     of regional programming, not only newscasting.  I just
12     wanted to focus on that particular case.
13  277                  It is important to not only those of
14     us who live in Saskatchewan but to those of us who have
15     the opportunity to live in other parts of the country
16     that we reflect ourselves in the programming from
17     across the country.
18  278                  I would finally point out, as I am
19     sure you are more than well aware, that the
20     Broadcasting Act really does place a responsibility on
21     the CRTC to reflect the importance of local television
22     to ensure that the CBC does in fact fulfil its
23     legislative requirements to draw programs from local,
24     regional, national and international sources, each with
25     an equal weight, and that there are distribution


 1     priorities for Canadian, and in particular local
 2     Canadian, stations.
 3  279                  CBC, as you are well aware, is
 4     charged with "reflecting Canada and its regions to
 5     national and regional audiences, while serving the
 6     special needs of those regions".  And I quote there.
 7  280                  I will close there by asking you to
 8     fulfil that responsibility with energy and vigour, as I
 9     am sure you will, to ensure that Saskatoon is reflected
10     in the mix of CBC's activities in the way in which it
11     should and to recognize that the cuts made some eight
12     or nine years ago have had a significant negative
13     impact that should be rectified.
14  281                  Thank you.
15     --- Applause / Applaudissements
16  282                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
17     Axworthy.
18  283                  Mr. Secretary.
19                                                        1418
20  284                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
21  285                  Gary Hyland, please.
23  286                  MR. HYLAND:  Good afternoon, Madam
24     Chair, Commissioner.
25  287                  As we strain your listening


 1     capacities this afternoon, you will be pleased to know
 2     that I have been editing my speech and a page and a
 3     half have gone so far.  It might get more creative as
 4     we go along.
 5  288                  It wasn't the best part; it was just
 6     all the jokes.  I will tell them to you after.
 7  289                  The Festival of Words was founded in
 8     1997.  It is a provincially-registered non-profit
 9     volunteer organization that operated year-round to
10     celebrate the many imaginative uses of language and to
11     promote creative writing and life-long reading.
12  290                  Our chief program is the three-day
13     summer festival in Moose Jaw that last year attracted
14     over 2,000 people from all around the province and
15     beyond.  With 142 volunteers and a part-time staff of
16     three, we also operate ten other programs throughout
17     the year.
18  291                  There are two unique things about our
19     program, and then I will get to how we connect with the
20     CBC.
21  292                  We design programming for children
22     and teens, as well as adults, and we include not just
23     books but all aspects of creative word use in all forms
24     of cultural expression, such as story-telling, drama,
25     film, song writing and even media commentary.


 1  293                  In our work, we are much indebted to
 2     the CBC.  At the same time, we are concerned about
 3     developments at the corporation that we believe
 4     adversely affect its delivery of these services.
 5  294                  There are four areas from which we
 6     benefit from the CBC.
 7  295                  Our raison d'être:  that use of
 8     imaginative language is a major component of CBC
 9     programming, programs such as the following -- and I
10     will mention just a few -- directly contribute to the
11     creation of an intelligent, well-informed audience
12     which we look to to draw the bulk of our audience.
13  296                  On national radio shows such as "This
14     Morning", "The Arts Report", "Between the Covers"; on
15     national TV, "Rough Cuts" and "On the Arts"; on
16     regional radio, "Gallery" and "The Arts Update"; on
17     regional TV, "Arts Reel".
18  297                  Without the support for Canadian, and
19     in particular Saskatchewan, writers and the
20     appreciative audiences that these programs and others
21     like them create, our task of drawing crowds of people
22     who relish the imaginative uses of language would be
23     far more difficult.
24  298                  Most of these people are devoted
25     readers, writers and supporters of Canadian culture


 1     whose interest is sustained in good part by the CBC.
 2  299                  The CBC provides a means of reaching
 3     the most crucial segment of our audience through its
 4     coverage of events and stories related to us.  For
 5     instance, items on or about the Festival have appeared
 6     on "Midday", "Rough Cuts", "Gallery", "The Arts Reel"
 7     and "The Arts Report".
 8  300                  Private electronic media, for the
 9     most part, do not consider cultural developments
10     inherently newsworthy.
11  301                  In the span of time that we receive
12     the above coverage, only two local cable stations and
13     one local TV show on a private station have given the
14     Festival any attention.  And that is not through lack
15     of trying on our part.
16  302                  CBC news and arts staff have also
17     been supportive by soliciting stories from us and
18     reporting our media releases.  Recently, we exchanged
19     established linkages between our web site and that of
20     the CBC Saskatchewan site.
21  303                  Last year the CBC was an official
22     media sponsor of the Festival in return for access to
23     Festival programs and for taping and promotional
24     displays, the CBC provided us with coverage valued at
25     over $30,000; namely, the airing of 442 video promos.


 1  304                  In addition, we received on-air
 2     interviews and giveaways in both TV and radio.  We are
 3     very appreciative of this valuable assistance.
 4  305                  It should be noted that one private
 5     broadcaster, CKCK-TV, has also been an active supporter
 6     of the Festival, giving us thousands of dollars worth
 7     of TV spots, an on-air interview and give-away segment.
 8  306                  As a non-profit agency struggling to
 9     keep our books balanced, we are dependent upon donated
10     support of this kind.
11  307                  Because the CBC provides numerous
12     forums for the constructive critical and creative uses
13     of language, and because many of its programs actually
14     highlight books and authors and Canadian films and
15     music that are mostly ignored by private broadcasters,
16     the CBC has contributed greatly to the careers of many
17     of feature presenters; the likes of Guy Vanderhaeghe,
18     Rudy Wiebe, Lorna Crozier, Brenda Baker, Gail Bowen,
19     Maggie Siggins, Louise Halfe, Sandra Birdsell, Rosemary
20     Sullivan and Ian Tyson.
21  308                  The reputations of these artists have
22     been enhanced by CBC exposure, thus making them more
23     appealing to our patrons.
24  309                  Most of the members, the team that
25     develops our program, are avid CBC listeners.  Thus, it


 1     is not surprising that many of our ideas for guests
 2     come from CBC broadcasts.  In fact, some of our
 3     presenters have been, at one time or another, CBC
 4     staffers.  Examples are Dennis Gruending, Rex Murphy
 5     and Peter Gzowski.
 6  310                  We were particularly pleased to host
 7     a one-hour segment of the last edition of "Morningside"
 8     in Moose Jaw.  This program set up a fundraiser for the
 9     Festival and was instrumental in us getting launched on
10     a strong financial footing.
11  311                  A major event at our 1999 Festival in
12     July will be the CBC radio program "Madly Off in All
13     Directions".  Two segments of the show will be taped at
14     the Festival, providing us with yet another opportunity
15     to raise funds while offering a night of comedy by
16     nationally renowned comedians.
17  312                  This event will be an important
18     fund-raiser for us, so we are profoundly grateful to
19     the show's producer Brian Hill and his staff for making
20     these arrangements.
21  313                  We trust a relationship of
22     appreciation for, and dependence upon, the CBC is
23     clear.  It is the vital nature of that relationship
24     that prompts us to express a few concerns.
25  314                  Our chief concern that the Federal


 1     Government has not delivered on its clearly stated
 2     promise to deliver stable long-term funding to the CBC. 
 3     Instead, as you will be hearing time and time again, I
 4     am sure, there have been drastic reductions in the
 5     allocations to the corporation that have led to
 6     inevitable dilutions of program content and quality. 
 7     Bluntly stated, cuts to the CBC jeopardize one of the
 8     few meaningful providers of Canadian culture and
 9     creators of national awareness that this country has. 
10     That misguided and occasionally peevish politicians
11     would risk this pivotal institution to save what amount
12     to pennies in a now plump public purse is aggravating.
13  315                  The indefensible cuts of the last few
14     years should be restored in full.
15  316                  In recent years regional programming
16     vital to the survival of artists in this part of Canada
17     has been severely cut back.  Generally, we hear fewer
18     and skimpier newscasts, more repeated programs, more
19     filler wire service stories of questionable relevance. 
20     Local program producers are struggling admirably with
21     crippling resources and staff cuts, but the results are
22     evident in fewer programs of diminished quality.
23  317                  Centralizing program production in
24     Toronto saves money at the expense of creating
25     alienation in the regions.  Yes, we need content that


 1     enhances Canadians' sense of national awareness and
 2     identity, but we also need the living pulse of locally
 3     produced programs to catch the eyes and ears of people
 4     who are often immersed in their own regional concerns.
 5  318                  CBC once filled this balanced mandate
 6     admirably.  Why should we be talking nostalgically
 7     about the golden age of public broadcasting in this
 8     prosperous country.
 9  319                  Regional programming is the idea way
10     to nurture local writing, film-making and musical
11     talent that is shut out of the private sector. 
12     Toronto-centred programming and repetitious logging
13     produce the same unfortunate effect.  Program and staff
14     cuts have been applied more severely in the regions in
15     order, one presumes, to shore up central interests,
16     including the administrative staff.
17  320                  We have a plethora of commercial and
18     special interest stations swamping us with formats
19     developed south of the border.  We don't need more
20     lowest common denominator or mediocre broadcasting.  We
21     need stimulating alternative programming, intelligent
22     talk, dramas, thought-provoking information, music that
23     is not mainstream, and a variety of viewpoints
24     incisively presented.
25  321                  Few other large scale broadcasters


 1     exhibit anything approaching a commitment to Canadian
 2     programming.  If the CBC with its national networks
 3     does not do so, the job will not be done adequately, if
 4     at all.
 5  322                  The CBC should be commissioning works
 6     by Canadians for Canadians, as well as setting up
 7     partnerships and soliciting freelance input to create
 8     an eclectic mix of broadcasting that speaks to and
 9     nurtures the mind and soul of this nation 24 hours a
10     day, with the fewest possible repeat hours, and with
11     strong use of material that originates in the regions.
12  323                  In conclusion, our interest is
13     self-serving to the extent that the Festival of Words
14     relies on the CBC in ways that we have outlined just
15     now.  But we submit that in this respect, and in our
16     expression of concern, our interests are coincident
17     with those of the majority of Canadians, whether they
18     articulate their concerns or not:  We want the CBC out
19     of the intensive care ward, restored to health, and
20     returned to the Canadian people.
21  324                  Thank you for this opportunity.
22     --- Applause / Applaudissements
23  325                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
24     Hyland.  And for your alliteration:  plump public
25     purse.


 1  326                  MR. HYLAND:  I'm glad you got that
 2     down.
 3  327                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Secretary.
 4                                                        1430
 5  328                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 6  329                  Tony Richmond, please.
 8  330                  MR. RICHMOND:  Madam Commissioner, I
 9     am a humble listener from Prince Albert, professional
10     forester by occupation; 54 per cent of this province is
11     covered in tress.  I just say that to the farmers
12     amongst you.
13  331                  I am here for only one reason.  I was
14     scared stiff when I heard about this session today,
15     that you would come here and there would be perhaps one
16     or two people.  But I am totally delighted to see the
17     representation that we have ahead of us.
18  332                  I can tell you that I can cut my
19     presentation short, because I am totally delighted at
20     the input from the Hon. Bernie Wiens, from Bruce Steele
21     beside me, and from Mr. Axworthy and others.
22  333                  The stuff from the heart and the soul
23     I will leave behind.
24  334                  I travel a great deal.  The CBC feeds
25     my intellect.  It is my soul, and it contributes to my


 1     self-awareness.  Without the CBC this country would be
 2     diminished significantly.
 3  335                  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  Hear! Hear!
 4  336                  MR. RICHMOND:  Having said that, I am
 5     trying to put myself now in your shoes.  What the heck
 6     do we do with diminishing dollars, signals coming in
 7     from outer space?  How do we maintain this integrity
 8     without being totally washed away by a thousand
 9     channels?
10  337                  This is just me.  I ride around in my
11     truck.  I do 50,000 clicks a year.  Once I got trapped
12     in to coming here today, I thought:  "What are we going
13     to do about the future?"
14  338                  So we have to embrace the future,
15     Madam Commissioner; we can't be scared.  The future is
16     not necessarily bringing the past forward.  It is maybe
17     just losing the past and bringing technology into
18     place.  The wonderful, wonderful people at CBC that
19     keep me going sometimes when I am up to my eyeballs in
20     snow or mud or ice, digging out the truck, and the
21     unions that go along with these wonderful people; the
22     Sheila Coles(ph), everybody at CBC Regina.  Tremendous
23     people.
24  339                  But sometimes CBC Regina doesn't
25     understand that the north perhaps starts at La Ronge


 1     and not at the Legislature here.
 2  340                  Regionally, we have to stay with
 3     quality production.  That's as I see it, riding around
 4     in my pick-up up north.  We have to stay with quality
 5     production.  There might be less of it, but what we do
 6     have is quality.
 7  341                  We have to emphasize the regional
 8     highlights.  We have had lots of really first-class
 9     commentary on that today.
10  342                  Let's try to do something more for
11     our young people.  Count the number of white and grey
12     heads in this audience today.
13  343                  We have to continue to promote
14     interaction through the Internet and phone-in shows,
15     with the CBC brass, so that we keep them honest.
16  344                  I was coming out of Cumberland House,
17     and Perrin Beatty and Alex Frame(ph), and a whole bunch
18     was on the CBC radio "Cross Country Checkup".  It
19     wasn't "Cross Country Checkup" that day.
20  345                  I was coming out of Cumberland House,
21     soaked to the skin.  It was great.  There was one thing
22     they never brought up.  There was all sorts of bitching
23     and complaining about the amount of money going into
24     the CBC, but no one brought up that frightful vision of
25     someone fooling around with the Broadcasting Act and


 1     fooling around with the President of the CBC's right to
 2     govern, and that sort of thing.  No one brought that
 3     up.
 4  346                  Madam Commissioner, I think those of
 5     us at the bottom end of the food chain require that the
 6     CRTC prevent let's say hostile takeovers.
 7  347                  I think the Internet is a growing
 8     entity.  It is a tremendous feedback tool.  Don't worry
 9     about competition from across the borders.  Don't put
10     up artificial barriers to external signals.  CBC
11     programming and other Canadian programming will hold
12     its own if we maintain excellence.
13  348                  Go after the intellect.  Challenge
14     the listener and the looker.  Your audience will become
15     global.  Let's not look inwards; let's look outwards,
16     folks.  We export everything else.  We can export our
17     culture.  Our culture can become missiles, and we will
18     meet the other incoming missiles and knock them out of
19     the sky.  In the CBC and in other radio and television
20     entities across this nation we have the talent, and we
21     have the capacity.
22  349                  I have been in this country.  This is
23     my 50th year, so I have some right to say that.
24  350                  Don't shut down the foreign bureaus. 
25     Tell that to the CBC brass.  The excellence from


 1     foreign journalists has to be maintained.  We can't cut
 2     those people down.
 3  351                  We export guns; we export butter. 
 4     What else are we going to export here?  Oh yes,
 5     peacekeepers.
 6  352                  If we do that, we have to have a
 7     journalistic mechanism overseas that can feed back to
 8     us the results of those kind of policies.
 9  353                  Don't touch CBC Regina.  Wonderful
10     people.  Sheila Coles(ph) keeps me going in the most
11     incredible of times; and the rest of the crew, the rest
12     of the buddies in CBC Regina.  Try and get the money
13     back to open up Saskatoon again.
14  354                  Tom Roberts was missing today.  That
15     guy goes fishing or canoeing or skiing, or something. 
16     But he was missing today.  So find him, CBC Regina.
17  355                  I have to skip to my version of the
18     options.  And I will talk TV, because I think Sheila
19     Copps understands that CBC radio is so precious she
20     wouldn't touch it.
21  356                  Option one is a fully serviced entity
22     competing head-on with private broadcasters.  It is
23     sort of what is going on today but with diminished
24     money.  We raise some income from selling the series
25     internationally, and with more regional programming, to


 1     pay for this you have to jack up the advertising.
 2  357                  That is option one.
 3  358                  The option two is the PBS model, and
 4     I just couldn't go through one of those fund-raising
 5     efforts.  Could you?  I could do it once, but that
 6     would be it.
 7  359                  Option Three:  Keep the CBC Newsworld
 8     as the engine of the public system.  That's what you
 9     do:  keep CBC Newsworld as the engine of the public
10     system and then create, promote, steer and fund on a
11     cost-recovery basis a contract system; contract out the
12     making and distribution of drama, documentary,
13     historical series and make sure we get enough coming
14     into Saskatchewan, for Saskatchewan by Saskatchewan
15     people.
16  360                  All matters pertinent to Canadian
17     cultural environment.  Then have broadcast rights sold
18     to those existing or expanding private channels. 
19     Somebody mentioned partnerships.  Partnerships is the
20     way of the future, anyway, in so much of this stuff. 
21     We can't afford the old icons, even though we love
22     them.
23  361                  And add a regional entity to
24     Newsworld.  Let's have our own Regina CBC Newsworld
25     once in a while.


 1  362                  Option 3B:  I call this Option 3B,
 2     down the road -- because I don't understand how to do
 3     it, but people like yourselves, at the province, do.
 4  363                  Provide for option to deliver the
 5     output generated in option 3 through high-speed
 6     Internet, or something like that.  I can sit home.  I
 7     have a password.  And this contracted system that
 8     creates documentaries and historical series, CBC stuff,
 9     beautiful CBC stuff -- "Black Harbour"; what was that
10     sixty thing, the Indian program --
11  364                  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  "North of 60".
12  365                  MR. RICHMOND:  "North of 60". Very,
13     very precious.  We should have a heck of a lot more of
14     those than we have today.
15  366                  The Sunday night programming -- you
16     know, the ones, Madam Commissioner.  You watch CBC, I
17     hope.
18  367                  There are contract shops coming into
19     the picture now, doing these outstanding stuff.  Who is
20     going to tune into something else when you have this to
21     tune into?  But do it through partnerships with local
22     entities, regional entities and national entities.
23  368                  We sit at home, browse the
24     distributor's web site, download our choices, store
25     this in the TV computer, then watch it at our leisure. 


 1     We would pay a subscription fee to purchase a password
 2     to obtain the material for viewing.  So there is an
 3     opportunity for some more cash coming into the system.
 4  369                  But we do it through satellite.  We
 5     don't have to go the old route.
 6  370                  And I am finished, because you are in
 7     a hurry.
 8     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 9  371                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
10     Richmond.
11  372                  Mr. Secretary.
12                                                        1437
13  373                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
14  374                  Brian Docjack, please.
16  375                  MR. DOCJACK:  Madam Chairman,
17     Commissioners, my name is Brian Docjack.  I represent
18     the Regional Musicians Association, Local 446 of the
19     American Federation of Musicians of the United States
20     and Canada.
21  376                  I stop at this point and stress "and
22     Canada", because without our organization, our Canadian
23     operation runs on its own.  We didn't have to separate
24     like the Canadian auto workers did.
25  377                  Saskatchewan, unfortunately, is


 1     considered to be a part of a larger region as far as
 2     CBC is concerned, at least for budgeting purposes.  So
 3     consequently the allocations coming our way seem to be
 4     getting smaller and smaller.
 5  378                  I think I can speak for my colleagues
 6     in Saskatoon as well --  I think they would allow it
 7     this time, anyway -- in saying that over the years we
 8     have managed to develop an excellent rapport with the
 9     staff at the Regina Broadcast Centre.  It goes without
10     saying that they have done an absolutely excellent job
11     of getting the most out of what is a rather small
12     musical budget -- not just once, but time after time.
13  379                  Our member musicians have been
14     involved with the corporation on numerous projects,
15     both those developed by the CBC itself, and also those
16     in which CBC has been a co-producer with an independent
17     producer as well.
18  380                  For our members, this has been more
19     than just another chance to pick up a few dollars --
20     although that has been welcome.  It is also very safe
21     for me to say that had it not been for CBC's new talent
22     development programs, our Saskatchewan members may
23     never have had the opportunity to become involved in
24     this area of the electronics field.
25  381                  It has been CBC that has given some


 1     of our members a chance to hone their musical writing
 2     and arranging skills, in addition to their performance
 3     skills.  Some of those skills are now being utilized by
 4     private producers in both the TV and film fields.
 5  382                  The Regina Broadcast Centre has done
 6     a commendable job in promoting Saskatchewan artists and
 7     airing their recordings.  However, we have very grave
 8     concerns about the future of the corporation.  Recent
 9     years have seen, to say the very least, a tremendous
10     erosion of budgets and staffing, a trend that we feel
11     must be stopped and reversed.  I can't say that enough.
12  383                  Although all sorts of arguments may
13     be made for the CBC becoming self-sustaining, we feel
14     that because of the very unique role that the
15     corporation plays as Canada's public broadcaster, and
16     should continue to fulfil within our cultural mosaic,
17     this is something that cannot be judged strictly by
18     bottom line.
19  384                  Yes, there have been spurts of
20     activity by commercial broadcasters from time to time
21     in the area of musical production, but history shows us
22     that these efforts are never sustained; they are gone
23     quickly.  And all too often the other networks revert
24     to packaged product, often from the States; or, as my
25     teenage son often loves to say, "from the Toronto


 1     sports network".
 2  385                  Where can listeners go to hear the
 3     Canadian symphony orchestra?  Where can they go to
 4     listen to the broad range of talents that are displayed
 5     at the jazz festivals, the folk festivals in this
 6     country?  Where can a viewer see a Canadian entertainer
 7     who has perhaps not quite reached what is considered to
 8     be international stardom, or to see drama that is
 9     uniquely Canadian?
10  386                  For that matter, how often might one
11     watch a Canadian artist who has reached the top of the
12     ladder in an American special?  Very few times.
13  387                  However, it is becoming more and more
14     apparent in the field that I am involved in that
15     Canadians don't have to lower their heads to anybody. 
16     Watch the awards shows on the other channels and watch
17     the Canadian artists walk off with top prizes.  We have
18     the talent.
19  388                  Unfortunately, the answer to my
20     earlier questions is:  Only on CBC.
21  389                  If the erosion of staffing and
22     funding continues, even that is going to be gone.
23  390                  CBC contributes very significantly to
24     the cultural fabric of our country, and culture is
25     something that you cannot easily place a value on. 


 1     Yet, it defines us as a nation.
 2  391                  We must ensure that CBC remains
 3     available to Canadians and is assured sufficient
 4     funding to carry out its original mandate of being
 5     Canada's national broadcaster.  There is a fantastic
 6     talent pool available in all regions of this country. 
 7     I have had the opportunity to listen to many of them
 8     and we are seeing more and more of them reach
 9     international heights.
10  392                  But a comment I have heard all too
11     often and one that never fails to raise my temperature
12     is:  "Canadian?  Can't be.  It's too good."
13  393                  I am tired of that.  We have
14     wonderful artists in the musical field, in the dramatic
15     fields and in writing.  We don't have to lower our
16     heads in front of anybody.  We should be proud of what
17     we can produce.
18  394                  Locally, we had a show that was done
19     nationally for a while called "Country West".  In
20     talking to my colleagues across the country when it was
21     cancelled, they were amazed that they would cancel a
22     show of that quality.  Everyone expressed the same
23     thing.  The talent in Saskatchewan is fantastic.  But
24     it is not just Saskatchewan; it is all of Canada.
25  395                  I will close by saying that there are


 1     some things that are far, far too important to be
 2     judged solely on the basis of a balance sheet.  We
 3     support the mandate of the CBC.  I thank the Commission
 4     for affording me this opportunity.
 5     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 6  396                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 7     Dojack -- and I know that you are not Mr. Cotter.
 8                                                        1445
 9  397                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
10  398                  Finally, Mr. Victor Lau, of the first
11     ten people we have had today.
12  399                  Mr. Lau.
14  400                  MR. LAU:  Thank you.  Good afternoon
15     to everyone. My name is Victor Lau.  I am
16     Vice-President of the Regina District Labour Council. 
17     I am pleased to be here on behalf of the 18,000
18     unionized of the Regina District Labour Council, and we
19     are pleased to present our brief -- which is entitled
20     "Rejuvenating the CBC" -- which speaks in favour of
21     public broadcasting and in support of a strong CBC.
22  401                  As well, we hope to bring some of our
23     suggestions here that will rejuvenate the CBC, one
24     which will be fully ready for the challenges in the new
25     millennium.


 1  402                  In terms of privatization, first and
 2     foremost, we would like to make it clear that the CBC
 3     should never be privatized.  We believe that, having
 4     read some material from a group called Friends of
 5     Canadian Broadcasting, certain CBC board members are
 6     "hatching plans to sell the Crown Jewels -- CBC's
 7     transmitters -- in some of Canada's biggest cities to
 8     private interests in the coming months".
 9  403                  How is this consistent with providing
10     public broadcasting or supporting the CBC?  It just
11     plain is not.  We see this opportunistic privatization
12     plan as a way of further dismantling the CBC and
13     weakening it to a point of irrelevance.
14  404                  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  Hear! hear!
15  405                  MR. LAU:  As George Richards from
16     Castlegar, B.C., states:
17                            "Regional alienations can be
18                            strong in Canada.  The CBC was
19                            earlier mandated to counter
20                            these forces, to instill a love
21                            for a Canadian commonwealth. 
22                            This mandate should be
23                            re-stated, emphasized and
24                            funded."
25  406                  We ask that the CRTC investigate any


 1     possible plans of privatization at the CBC and put an
 2     immediate halt to any such plans.
 3  407                  Advertising:  We at the Regional
 4     District Labour Council find consumerism to be a poison
 5     in our mental environment.  It is hard to escape the
 6     constant bombardment of advertising whenever one tries
 7     to do so.  It is so prevalent in all of our major
 8     communication mediums: print, TV, radio.  The whole
 9     idea of allowing CBC radio's listening audience to be
10     subjected to the advertising industry's commercials
11     makes my stomach turn.  It is bad enough that even the
12     CBC television news is constantly being interrupted to
13     sell various drugs, dog foods, cars, et cetera.
14  408                  We ask that the CRTC investigate that
15     alternative means to keeping the CBC productions as
16     ad-free as possible, even if it means further public
17     subsidy.  We do not support the commercialization of
18     the CBC.
19     --- Applause / Applaudissements
20  409                  MR. LAU:  Investing in and Renewing
21     the CBC:  Similar to the massive federal cuts in
22     transfer payments to provincial health care over the
23     past years, the CBC has also enjoyed such undeserved
24     cuts.  In addition to slashed funding, the CBC also
25     seems to be receiving less and less public money.


 1  410                  An example is the $200 million that
 2     was collected from taxpayers and cable subscribers into
 3     the Canadian Television Fund.  After intensive lobbying
 4     from private interests, Mr. Chrétien's government
 5     reversed the decision made to put 50 per cent of this
 6     amount into Canadian productions from the CBC and
 7     instead decided to have 67 per cent of this public
 8     money reallocated into the private broadcasters' hands.
 9  411                  We think it is time the Federal
10     Government renewed the CBC, much like health care, and
11     put back what funding they took out.
12  412                  We ask that the CRTC demand the
13     Federal Government re-institute appropriate public
14     funding for the CBC.  This could be done with a small
15     tax on all private broadcasts.
16  413                  Without a strong CBC, will there be a
17     strong national identity?
18                            "As someone who grew up in
19                            Vancouver with CBC radio and
20                            television in the 40s and 50s,
21                            it was very clear to me that I
22                            was Canadian and not American. 
23                            I wonder if it will be so easy
24                            for my grandchildren?"
25  414                  That is from Anne Ironside, Bowen


 1     Island, B.C.
 2  415                  As for the arguments against further
 3     or increased public funding for the CBC due to the fear
 4     of "wasting the money", we would like to quote the CRTC
 5     itself in its 1993 renewal of the CBC's four radio
 6     networks:
 7                            "The Commission considers that
 8                            the Corporation, in a time of
 9                            financial restraint and
10                            uncertainty, should be commended
11                            for the general excellent of its
12                            radio programming, which stands
13                            as a model for broadcasters in
14                            Canada, and around the world."
15  416                  Ownership:  The CBC is a public
16     broadcaster.  Its mandate is to serve the public
17     interest, not the corporate.  The current labour strife
18     between the Communication, Energy and paperworkers
19     (CEP) union and the Media Guild versus the CBC Board of
20     Directors does not need to be occurring.  The whole
21     idea of public broadcasting is to serve a need, not to
22     expand corporate greed.
23  417                  To again quote the CRTC on its
24     renewal of the English Television Network's licence in
25     1994:


 1                            "The need may be greater than
 2                            ever for an outlet to express
 3                            truly Canadian stories, ideas
 4                            and values amid these foreign
 5                            voices.  A strong Canadian
 6                            national public broadcaster is
 7                            indispensable in this context."
 8  418                  If the CBC is to be "our" public
 9     broadcaster, then it must do two things:  One, it must
10     stop alienating its own workers through continued
11     harassment, layoffs, and threats to job security. 
12     Workers must have a sense of ownership in their jobs in
13     order to skilfully and willingly dedicate the needed
14     time to create excellence and in general "do a good
15     job".
16  419                  Secondly, the CBC must appeal to
17     audiences through entertaining, lively and dynamic
18     programming:
19                            "What Canadians require and
20                            expect of their CBC, more than
21                            of any other Canadian
22                            broadcaster, is that it provides
23                            the means for them to talk to
24                            one another about things
25                            Canadian, both formally and


 1                            informally, that it be a place
 2                            where they can meet, a place
 3                            they can feel at home."
 4  420                  That again is the CRTC on renewing
 5     the English Television Network's licence in 1994.
 6  421                  We ask that the CRTC require both
 7     these conditions from the CBC: the sense of worker
 8     ownership and citizen ownership.
 9  422                  The following suggestions are fully
10     endorsed by the Regina District Labour Council, but we
11     cannot take credit for their creation.
12  423                  We agree with the importance of
13     maintaining local and regional programming on CBC radio
14     and television.  Not only does this maintain stable,
15     well-paid jobs in each province, but in addition it
16     allows some local community coverage that can be shared
17     with other communities elsewhere in Canada.
18  424                  An example of how the cuts have
19     affected provincial CBC television is the supper hour
20     news broadcast here in this province.  Because of less
21     staff or the staff shortages, there is, according to my
22     friend, now more digitalized cartoon coverups to make
23     up for the time.
24  425                  We agree that the CBC should be
25     properly funded and not lose out funding to private


 1     broadcasters.  The CRTC should explain to the
 2     government that CBC needs more funds in order to fulfil
 3     its mandate.
 4  426                  We also agree that the CBC board
 5     should not be able to centralize radio and television
 6     news under the control of an Ottawa-based
 7     vice-president.  This centralization would reduce the
 8     number of independent news sources in Canada and place
 9     both radio and TV news under the nose of government. 
10     We do not want government propaganda or censorship.
11  427                  The CRTC should ensure the
12     independence of CBC's radio and television news
13     services from each other, as well as from any
14     governmental interference.
15  428                  An example of undue government
16     interference is the tampering of CBC's APEC
17     Summit/Trial coverage.  Prime Minister Chrétien's
18     threats from his office against Mr. Terry Milewsky's
19     "supposed" bias due to comments of labelling the
20     Federal Government as "the forces of darkness" led to
21     his immediate suspension.
22  429                  We condemn this act as journalistic
23     terrorism.  How can a reporter's private opinions and
24     thoughts, especially via e-mail, be considered bias,
25     but other reporters' open public statements on air stir


 1     not a whisper?
 2  430                  An example that I recently saw in the
 3     past year was the election in South Korea of a Social
 4     Democratic government, and the reporting by the
 5     reporter was talking about how the people did not agree
 6     with the past government because they were willing to
 7     implement the International Monetary Fund's reforms and
 8     that now this new government was elected on a mandate
 9     to change that.
10  431                  However, the reporter ended up saying
11     that the new government has no choice but to implement
12     IMF reforms.
13  432                  We don't see that as being impartial. 
14     I think that is a little leading.
15  433                  Another example would be the constant
16     barrage by a political commentator -- I believe his
17     name is Jason Moskovitz -- that the people were
18     concerned about constitutional changes; not
19     unemployment, not the environment during the last
20     federal election.  We were bombarded constantly that it
21     was constitutional amendments, constitutional wrangling
22     that people were concerned about and that that is what
23     the government should be concerned about.
24  434                  Is this a conspiracy or is this a
25     reality perpetuated by the powers that be -- in other


 1     words, big business?
 2  435                  CBC must always be seen to be fair,
 3     accountable and serving the public interest above all.
 4     We see the CBC as a public trust for all Canadians.
 5  436                  To conclude, we at the RDLC -- the
 6     Regina District Labour Council -- thank you again for
 7     this opportunity to present and hope that public
 8     participation can be done on a more frequent basis,
 9     perhaps even annually, and allow more average citizens
10     their say, not just the paid lobbyists who lobby for
11     the private corporate interests.
12  437                  Thank you.
13     --- Applause / Applaudissements
14  438                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Lau.
15  439                  I propose that we take a short break
16     and come back in ten minutes, which by my watch will be
17     five after three.
18     --- Recess at 1455 / Suspension à 1455
19     --- Upon resuming at 1510 / Reprise à 1510
20  440                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  When we reconvene,
21     the Secretary will be calling up the next ten people. 
22     However, Mr. Steele would like to have the mic for two
23     and a half seconds to clarify a matter.
24  441                  MR. STEELE:  I would like to take a
25     moment to emphasize, first of all, that I stated a


 1     rumour that I just recently heard that Radio Three of
 2     the CBC will be developed on the backs of cuts to noon
 3     and afternoon regional services.
 4  442                  I have been assured that this is a
 5     complete rumour, not true; that it is new money.  I
 6     have offered to remove that statement, if I can, from
 7     the record.
 8  443                  I would wonder why new money wouldn't
 9     go to prop up the old service.  But excuse me, my
10     seconds are up.
11  444                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
12     Steele.
13  445                  Mr. Secretary.
14  446                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
15  447                  I would like to call the next ten
16     participants, please, and I would remind you to try to
17     stick to the ten-minute limit.  It will help us later
18     on.
19  448                  I would like to insert the name of
20     Barb Stange, please; Jennifer Stowell; Elaine Driver;
21     Al Taylor; Lee Boyko; Jonathan Bingham; Ida Grosse;
22     Brian Cousins; Norm Bray; and Marcel Michaud.
23  449                  Please come forward to the table.
24  450                  Barb Stange, when you are ready,
25     please proceed.


 2  451                  MS STANGE:  Thank you very much for
 3     enabling me to speak earlier.
 4  452                  My name is Barbara Stange, and I am
 5     here representing myself.  I perhaps should say that I
 6     am a retired professor at the University of Regina, but
 7     that is not relevant to my presentation.
 8  453                  I almost did not come.  Why should
 9     you want to hear from me?  I am a 75-year old woman of
10     negligible value in marketing terms.
11  454                  Marketing, the bottom line, seems to
12     have become the determining force in Canada's public
13     policy decision.  Marketing analysis indicates that you
14     already have my support.  Marketing analysis says what
15     CBC needs are audiences for radio and television the
16     ages of my children and grandchildren.
17  455                  Broadcasters have to be cool, sharp,
18     up-to-date in the way they talk, what they say and how
19     they look.  Marketing says that above all else, numbers
20     count.  Marketing says the way to go is to chuck out
21     what has worked to the benefit of all Canadians.  Let
22     the market call the shots -- and, incidentally, silence
23     thoughtful, reflective programming and provide what
24     pleases the young of the moment.
25  456                  I will just mention that I have 14


 1     grandchildren, and I want to exclude them from that
 2     category.  I know they appreciate good programming, and
 3     I think lots of young people do.  If we used our smarts
 4     better, we could get programming on radio and
 5     television that would attract youth who are very
 6     thoughtful and interested in ideas.
 7  457                  The next step is to starve the CBC. 
 8     Make promises with on intention of fulfilling them. 
 9     Make it impossible for them to operate without
10     advertising and then criticize the CBC for unfairly
11     dipping into the advertising pool in competition with
12     the private radio and TV.  Cut funds so low that they
13     can't produce sufficiently high quality programs and
14     then gloat:  "Boy!  CBC's voice is not nearly so
15     effective as it used to be in helping people know what
16     is happening and in thinking critically (that is, with
17     knowledge and reflection) about government and big
18     business."
19  458                  The powers that be chortle:  "We've
20     pulled their teeth.  They are running scared and are
21     beginning to follow our lead.  Let's cut some more,
22     centralize operations in Montreal and Toronto where
23     people understand where we are coming from and where we
24     can influence who they hire and stifle the voices from
25     the underdeveloped, remote areas of Canada."


 1  459                  All this is being done so there will
 2     be few effective voices left to object to the complete
 3     dismantling of CBC radio and television.
 4  460                  Why would anyone, especially you,
 5     listen to my voice?  I can't answer that except to say
 6     that I care very deeply about CBC radio and television. 
 7     As a retired person, widowed less than two years ago, I
 8     depend upon the radio.  I wake up with "The Morning
 9     Show", list to classical music during the day, try not
10     to miss "Ideas", and go to sleep with "Between the
11     Covers".
12  461                  If I wake during the night -- and I
13     often do now -- I am fascinated by the broadcasts from
14     countries around the world.
15  462                  I am going to pause here.
16  463                  I asked to be able to present a
17     little early, because a friend of mine needs some help.
18     She is wheelchair-bound and fairly frail.  She is the
19     one who mentioned to me that the program "Through the
20     Night" was a wonderful thing.
21  464                  She grew up in Vienna, and she just
22     loves that she hears broadcasts from Europe and from
23     other places.  She said, when I told her what I was
24     doing this afternoon:  "Please stress how that is very,
25     very important."


 1  465                  That is Dr. Elizabeth Brandt, if you
 2     want to use her name.
 3  466                  I am fascinated by those broadcasts. 
 4     I am a busy person and read a lot too, but the radio is
 5     part of the rhythm and substance of my life.  I watch
 6     Newsworld with interest, but now prefer A&E and PBS
 7     from Detroit to the sorts of entertainment that are
 8     generally available on the basic CBC channel.  I miss
 9     the fun of many of the shows that we used to enjoy so
10     much.
11  467                  I came to Canada with my husband and
12     three of my five children in 1972.  By 1980 we were all
13     Canadian citizens.  People often ask me why I stay now
14     that I am a widow and my children are grown.  I stay
15     because I love this country and feel it is home.
16  468                  Peter Gzowski and others helped me
17     understand what it means to be a Canadian and helped me
18     learn about Canadian politics, literature and music. 
19     When I am in the United States with family and friends,
20     I enjoy the visit but I know now that I belong here.
21  469                  I weep inside as I see the dear
22     things I have come to love in Canada being devalued and
23     made ineffective.  I know there are others who feel the
24     way I do.
25  470                  On March 9th, in the Leader Post,


 1     Lawrence Martin quoted Sheila Copps as saying:
 2                            "One of the benefits of having a
 3                            public broadcaster like CBC is
 4                            that it can cater to a higher
 5                            ethic.  It need not be driven by
 6                            the lowest common denominator,
 7                            which is what private television
 8                            ratings are all about."
 9  471                  In the same paper the next day,
10     Martin writes about:
11                            "...a dearth of inspirational
12                            leaders in Canada as well as
13                            elsewhere."
14  472                  And that:
15                            "There is no one to reach for
16                            something higher than the
17                            dominant consensus of the day
18                            which, as George Soros calls it,
19                            is market fundamentalism."
20  473                  l feel the voices of humane, liberal,
21     literate thinkers must be heard.  Their voices provide
22     the thoughtfulness and inspiration which holds us
23     together as a functioning society.  What do we have
24     left if we silence them?
25  474                  My voice is a small one.  All I can


 1     do is let it be heard and hope against hope others will
 2     agree that this proposed deconstruction is an
 3     abomination.
 4  475                  I learned yesterday that I have a
 5     whopping tax bill.  I would pay even more if I thought
 6     it would have any effect on your decisions.
 7  476                  Please work toward strengthening CBC
 8     radio and television.  Let us hear many Canadian
 9     voices.  So many of the other presenters have said
10     that.  Let us celebrate all we have done together and
11     realize the wonderful possibilities that exist for this
12     very special country of ours.
13  477                  Thank you.
14     --- Applause / Applaudissements
15  478                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mrs.
16     Stange.
17  479                  Mr. Secretary.
18                                                        1523
19  480                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
20  481                  Jennifer Stowell, please.
22  482                  MS STOWELL:  Hi, I am Jennifer
23     Stowell.  I drove up from Saskatoon because I love the
24     CBC, not because I am with any organization.  There
25     have been so many great things said today and a lot of


 1     really helpful criticism.  I had written out quite a
 2     few things I wanted to cover, and they have mostly been
 3     covered really eloquently.  So I think I am mostly
 4     going to talk about what I like about the CBC and what
 5     I would like to see continue.
 6  483                  I love the CBC because it speaks to
 7     my heart and to my soul and mostly to my mind.  It is
 8     an overused cliche, but to me it really does tie the
 9     country together.
10  484                  Without it, the only east coast
11     culture I would get from private commercial stations
12     would be Great Big C from Quebec, Celine Dion; and from
13     the rest of the country almost nothing.
14  485                  The CBC means a lot because it brings
15     the country to me and therefore gives me a greater
16     understanding of my part in it.
17  486                  For the next millennium, I would just
18     like to see the CBC continue to work on quality
19     programming that it has always given me.  And, of
20     course, I wish they had more money.
21  487                  Regionally and nationally:  I guess
22     regionally I wish there was more regional programming
23     on television.  Obviously, I think there is enough on
24     the radio with "Morning Edition", "Afternoon Edition",
25     "The Noon Call-in".  I love hearing all the voices from


 1     Saskatchewan.
 2  488                  Television seems like it has got a
 3     lot of bashing today.  I actually really love the
 4     programming on CBC TV.  To me, it is what I can't get
 5     on commercial stations:  shows like "Twitch City", "The
 6     News Room", "Dewy Gardens"(ph) and especially the new
 7     one, "Foolish Heart".  It is innovative, creative and
 8     it is new; and the commercial stations would never air
 9     it for those reasons and because it is very Canadian to
10     me.
11  489                  Canadian content, to me, isn't just
12     having Canadian actors and writers who are performing
13     basically a pale imitation of an American standard, but
14     having a truly Canadian story and a Canadian voice.
15  490                  Particularly with movies, with CTV or
16     Global I get simulcasts of American movies like "The
17     Doris Duke Story".  On CBC I get "The Boys of St.
18     Vincent" and "For Those Who Hunt the Wounded Down". 
19     Having those means so much to me, and I love them.
20  491                  As Barb mentioned, I am the all
21     important supposed demographic.  I would like to think
22     that I have some taste, hopefully.
23  492                  CBC matters to me.  It does.  And I
24     think it matters to a lot of other people my age as
25     well, especially with the different bands and artists


 1     and thinkers you can't find anywhere else, with shows
 2     like "Definitely Not the Opera" or even on a
 3     "Round-up".  It doesn't get brought to me on any other
 4     channel.
 5  493                  I guess that is pretty much all I
 6     had.  CBC matters to me and I think it matters to most
 7     Canadians.  I think we need it to hear each other and
 8     to reach each other and to understand each other.
 9  494                  That is all I have.  Thank you.
10     --- Applause / Applaudissements
11  495                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
12     Stowell.
13  496                  Mr. Secretary.
14                                                        1526
15  497                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
16  498                  Elaine Driver, please.
18  499                  MS DRIVER:  Commissioners, ladies and
19     gentlemen:  Although I am an avid CBC television
20     watcher, I intend to confine my remarks this afternoon
21     to the role of CBC radio in rural Saskatchewan.  Most
22     of my comments will concern Radio One, AM radio, as we
23     are very much on the fringe of reception for the FM
24     broadcast.
25  500                  I met a farmer in the bank this


 1     morning as I was getting ready to come up here, and I
 2     told him where I was going because he said:  "Where are
 3     you going, all dressed up today?"  He said:  "Please,
 4     please tell everybody how important CBC is to me.  I
 5     have to go seeding this spring, and it's the only way I
 6     stay sane is to listen to CBC radio on my tractor."
 7  501                  I am appearing before this Commission
 8     to tell you how vital CBC radio is to me.  I speak from
 9     the perspective of a rural woman who has spent many
10     years in the isolated setting of a farm, 20 kilometres
11     from the nearest town, and with fewer and fewer
12     neighbours.
13  502                  No daily paper appears on the
14     doorstep.  There is no computer in our home.  Even
15     though the town library is limited as to what is on
16     site, books can be ordered; but that usually means you
17     would have to make two trips to town to access the
18     information you need.
19  503                  It is understandable how important
20     access to CBC radio becomes in that kind of an isolated
21     setting.  Feeding the intellect is as important as
22     feeding the body, as Tony Richmond said -- although I
23     said it first.
24  504                  The CBC is a vital component that
25     fulfils the function of feeding the mind.  We


 1     especially appreciate "The Morning Show" as we rise to
 2     begin another day.  We can find out if the weather will
 3     be fair or fowl.  We can determine what highway and
 4     road conditions are and if our favourite team has won.
 5  505                  But it is more than the fact about
 6     our environment.  It is about our neighbours.  The
 7     human interest angle is featured as a very important
 8     part of every story.  We begin to understand the
 9     character of our province and its people, creating an
10     even stronger sense of community.
11  506                  Many of our interests are covered by
12     CBC.  If it's music, there is music analysis; for jazz,
13     classical, folk and a wee bit of rock and roll.  If it
14     is international or world beat music, there is a
15     program with that focus.  If our interest is in
16     politics, there is political analysis at the national,
17     provincial and municipal level; and if it is the arts,
18     you can find out what is going on across the country,
19     and locally.
20  507                  If farm market information is
21     important to you, you can find that -- although I would
22     like to say that coverage has been seriously eroded. I
23     guess as we lose farmers, we lose the need to provide
24     the market information.
25  508                  CBC radio provides, to the very best


 1     of my knowledge, the only regular source of widely
 2     varied radio drama.  It is also one of the few places
 3     where new and aspiring artistic performers are given
 4     both regional and nation-wide coverage and
 5     encouragement.
 6  509                  Through CBC radio, we can keep in
 7     touch with the latest happenings in the visual arts,
 8     gallery openings and what is going on at the Mendel(ph)
 9     or the Norman Mackenzie.
10  510                  I want to pay special tribute to the
11     high quality of the interviewing that takes place on
12     CBC radio.  I will never forget Peter Gzowski's
13     interview with the young woman who was working with an
14     aid agency in Nicaragua who described the locale and
15     the mountains where women had banded together to form a
16     day care cooperative.  As she was telling the story, I
17     soon recognized that this was the same place I had
18     visited a few years previously; and as it became clear
19     that the women were still, years later, experiencing
20     great difficulty in caring for those children, with no
21     resources at all, I found myself in tears.
22  511                  This was only one example of Peter
23     Gzowski's ability to bring the world into our kitchen: 
24     the mud huts from Africa, the slum shacks of South
25     American cities.  And Peter was only one of many


 1     excellent interviewers whose work brought, and
 2     continues to bring, a unique perspective to our lives.
 3  512                  The continuing fine tradition of "As
 4     It Happens", from the days of Barbara Frum and Alan
 5     Maitland to the present, has kept countless Canadians
 6     well informed and challenged.
 7  513                  I also remember an outstanding
 8     interview with Moshe Safdie that I just recently heard,
 9     a wide-ranging discussion on architectural philosophy: 
10     truly inspiring and enlightening, and where else would
11     you hear something like that.
12  514                  CBC is also excellent in helping us
13     to appreciate other cultures around us.  I am thinking
14     here of Tom Roberts, whose early morning contributions
15     from La Ronge give us a vivid picture of a First
16     Nations people living and working in northern
17     Saskatchewan.  We find out about the trappers'
18     festivals, how the fur markets are doing, and how the
19     wild rice harvest has gone.
20  515                  And then there is the comedy, the
21     laughter that keeps us going in the bleakest of times;
22     the droll outrageous humour of "The Dead Dog Cafe", the
23     general craziness of the gang from "Royal Canadian Air
24     Farce".  They have since gone to television,
25     unfortunately.


 1  516                  And of course my personal favourite
 2     at the present time, Lorne Elliott's(ph) unique brand
 3     of craziness on "Madly Off in All Directions".
 4  517                  Through CBC radio we also get an
 5     inside view of that other distinctly Canadian comedic
 6     relief, the goings-on in Ottawa and other political
 7     arenas.  Where else would we be able to get that kind
 8     of quality in-depth coverage of public affairs that is
 9     available, again without commercial interruption, every
10     Saturday morning, "On The House", with Jason Moskovitz,
11     and an amazing crew of dedicated researchers and
12     writers.
13  518                  I am certain people who are making
14     decisions about the future of the CBC could conclude
15     that the world wide web would fulfil the needs of
16     people for that kind of information that CBC radio
17     presently offers.
18  519                  However, statistics tell us that
19     under 10 per cent of the people have ready access to
20     the Internet, and that this figure will increase only
21     marginally over the next decade.
22  520                  On the other side, I would guess that
23     99.9 per cent of people have a radio.
24  521                  Even looking at those households who
25     have satellite dishes, these provide high-quality


 1     sound; but I would argue that fewer people have access
 2     to these than you would think and that there is little
 3     programming of the sort CBC provides and which I have
 4     discussed above.
 5  522                  To sum up, I want to cast my vote in
 6     favour of imaginative, informative, and uplifting
 7     programming that CBC radio has over the past years
 8     offered to the people of rural Saskatchewan.  I realize
 9     that in recent years this sterling effort has had to
10     contend with short-sighted and stingy governance from
11     politicians who seem unable to appreciate the crucial
12     role of this institution in the shaping of our national
13     character and identity.
14  523                  Here is one solid cheer for the good
15     work that the CBC has done and must be allowed to
16     continue to do.
17  524                  In closing, may I add our grave
18     concern as to the effect of the continuing labour
19     difficulties and urge the people at the bargaining
20     table to hurry up and settle the strike.
21  525                  Thank you very much.
22     --- Applause / Applaudissements
23  526                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
24     Driver.
25  527                  Mr. Secretary.


 1                                                        1530
 2  528                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 3  529                  Al Taylor, please.
 5  530                  MR. TAYLOR:  I am not nearly as well
 6     prepared as my previous presenters.  I will try and
 7     keep it short.
 8  531                  The thing that struck me while I was
 9     listening to the person travelling through
10     Saskatchewan -- which I did most of my working life
11     through rural Saskatchewan and northern Saskatchewan,
12     and believe me, without CBC radio you would not be
13     informed at all about what is going on in Canada and in
14     Saskatchewan.
15  532                  When you are driving two and three
16     hours at a time between meetings, you have to have
17     something to keep you awake over our broad flat plains
18     that grow so much beautiful grain, and it was CBC
19     radio.  I never, as I recall, tuned into any other
20     station, because I cannot stand being blasted with
21     advertising, telling me to consume, and consume and
22     consume.
23  533                  So I am another small voice, like
24     Barbara who just presented, bringing my point of view,
25     which has already been so well stated by so many other


 1     people.
 2  534                  I have just a few points or comments.
 3  535                  CBC radio, in my opinion, must
 4     continue.  Improved funding is absolutely essential.  I
 5     want it to remain advertising free.  In fact, I have
 6     written down here "it must remain advertising free".
 7  536                  CBC television, which I enjoy -- I
 8     guess in our house we listen to the CBC morning, noon
 9     and night.  And when I get upset at something that is
10     being done, the radio happens to get turned on.
11  537                  CBC television doesn't strike me as
12     doing a job that I think it should be doing for Canada.
13     I would argue that it should be advertising free. I
14     think that is a great leap forward, rather than going
15     back to the past. We used to actually have television
16     that was advertising free.
17  538                  CBC television is, and can be, very
18     unique in many ways.  Surely our rich diverse country
19     can afford one national commercial-free channel that
20     isn't urging us hour after hour after hour to consume
21     and consume.  If necessary, increase my taxes.
22  539                  A couple of other points.  I am not
23     well prepared, but I have been discussing this with
24     friends and neighbours.  The person I am quoting now is
25     legally blind and has a hip problem so doesn't get out


 1     of the house very much, and listens to CBC morning,
 2     noon, night -- and well after night, into the middle of
 3     the morning.
 4  540                  The strike, as far as she is
 5     concerned, has really cut her off from all kinds of
 6     programs she wants to hear.  Since it is practically
 7     the only information that comes into the house, she is
 8     just tired of the repeating programs.  She has heard
 9     them all, and heard them all again, and she thinks it
10     is time for some new ones.
11  541                  She also asked me to mention that
12     more programs that force us to deal with the racism
13     that is all around us is really important.  CBC does
14     some of this; but arguably, there is much more that can
15     be done.  We are becoming a very diverse country
16     ethnically, and it just seems to me that it should be
17     dealt with openly and honestly and with lots of
18     dignity.
19  542                  Many more programs showing the
20     positive accomplishments of native and other minority
21     and immigrant groups would be well advised.  Much
22     broader TV representation of all sports played in
23     Canada.  Some of us would be actually happy to see CBC
24     give up the unlimited coverage of the National Hockey
25     League, especially during play-off season.


 1  543                  What we would like to see is much
 2     more coverage of all sports in Canada.  We do have good
 3     standards in badminton, table tennis.  Right now, I
 4     can't think of any more; but squash, and that sort of
 5     thing, never gets any coverage at all -- at least it is
 6     so little that I never see it.  Maybe it is because I
 7     don't' watch sports all the time.
 8  544                  We would like to see much more
 9     coverage of all the small volunteer NGO groups that are
10     really trying to save the world.
11  545                  This last one is brought in mostly
12     because I am a concerned environmentalist, and I see
13     commercial television advertising for us to consume
14     great masses of resources that are very fast running
15     out.  We need discussion, and we need some station that
16     is trying to inform us about what is going on in the
17     real world rather than trying to get us to consume more
18     and more of it faster and faster.
19  546                  I would like to congratulate all the
20     other people who have made presentations on behalf of
21     the CBC.  I get angry at them periodically, but I
22     wouldn't want to give them up for the world.
23  547                  Thank you.
24     --- Applause / Applaudissements
25  548                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.


 1     Taylor.
 2  549                  For everybody's information Mr.
 3     Taylor used to live in my home town of Indian Head.
 4  550                  Mr. Secretary.
 5                                                        1538
 6  551                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 7  552                  Lee Boyko, please.
 9  553                  MR. BOYKO:  Thank you for the
10     opportunity to speak today.  My name is Lee Boyko.  I
11     am the Executive Director of the Museum Association of
12     British Columbia, where our umbrella organization
13     represents about 225 museums, art galleries and related
14     organizations around the province.
15  554                  First, I want to say that many of the
16     comments I wanted to say have already been made, so I
17     will cut those out and keep them fairly short.
18  555                  I also want to talk a little bit
19     about process at the beginning.
20  556                  About ten years ago I lived in a town
21     called Prince Rupert, in British Columbia.  The CRTC
22     came to do a hearing there when the CBC decided to
23     eliminate the radio station that existed there.  The
24     CRTC made a bit of a solemn like decision by saying
25     "Well, you still have to keep one person there from the


 1     15-person station that used to exist", and we would
 2     have sort of a morning program, bureau type thing that
 3     you have in British Columbia.
 4  557                  Subsequent to that, my understanding
 5     is that that person is shared between Prince George,
 6     which is about 400 miles away, and unfortunately the
 7     quality of service has deteriorated greatly.  Where my
 8     concern is, especially hearing today many people
 9     talking about the importance of CBC radio -- and I know
10     that previously at previous CRTC hearings the same
11     thing has been expressed -- and yet CBC management has
12     managed to avoid dealing with that in an effective
13     manner.
14  558                  In many cases they have continued to
15     cut CBC radio and put resources into things like CBC
16     television, despite what people have been saying at
17     these types of meetings.
18  559                  I don't know if the CRTC has the real
19     power to make sure that CBC management listens to what
20     people are saying at these meetings.  That I have a
21     real concern about.  I don't know how the CRTC can most
22     effectively approach that.
23  560                  It seems to me that often the CBC
24     just goes ahead does what they want to do despite what
25     the rulings are around them.  So I will start off with


 1     that.
 2  561                  I guess amongst everything else I am
 3     just going to focus on one thing that I think the CBC
 4     could be looking at doing, and that is in the area of
 5     partnerships.  Certainly today we have heard some
 6     examples of partnerships and some things where CBC has
 7     been very effective, but I think the CBC can be doing a
 8     lot more in this area.
 9  562                  That is one area that you can look
10     at, one of its sister organizations, the National Film
11     Board, which, like so many national cultural
12     organizations, has taken its beating over the years. 
13     One thing that the National Film Board has been very
14     effective at is working in partnership with community
15     organizations.
16  563                  I worked with three different museums
17     where we ended up having documentaries that were able
18     to be used by the museum in its programming and so
19     forth that were helped and supported by the NFB, not
20     just through money, but through expertise and so forth.
21  564                  I think that too often the CBC only
22     looks at partnerships in cases where they are going to
23     get direct broadcast hours out of it.  I think the CBC
24     can spend some more time looking at partnerships that
25     both sides are getting other benefits.


 1  565                  Another example is that around this
 2     province and throughout many community museums there
 3     are literally thousands of hours of oral histories that
 4     have been done over the years.  Frankly, most of those
 5     oral histories rotting away.  Their tape has not been
 6     looked at properly and have not been transcribed
 7     properly.  I think there is a great opportunity there
 8     to use some of the expertise of the CBC and their new
 9     digital technologies, and so forth, to help preserve
10     that history and perhaps get some programming out of
11     it.
12  566                  I guess what I am saying is that they
13     don't always have to work in partnership with groups
14     just to get direct programming; they can help to
15     preserve the culture and heritage of this country in
16     other ways.
17  567                  I think the CBC should look at that
18     type of partnership that goes beyond their broadcast
19     mandate.  I think they can do that.
20  568                  Second, I want to comment a little
21     bit about the arts recording that has been occurring on
22     the CBC over the past number of years.  I think many of
23     us have been encouraged by especially CBC radio's
24     inclusion of more arts reporters and the development
25     their cultural web site I think has been very good and


 1     has a lot of potential.
 2  569                  At the same time a number of
 3     organizations are finding that the emphasis of the
 4     "Arts Report" is towards news; i.e., controversy.  I
 5     suppose that the news side especially of CBC has to be
 6     careful about being seen to be biased or being seen to
 7     promote as opposed to find a news story.  Yet, I think
 8     one of the roles of the CBC is just that; to promote
 9     the cultural awareness around the country of various
10     things.
11  570                  Is it really arts reporters that we
12     need or arts interpreters that we need at the CBC?  I
13     think that needs to be considered a bit.  Not all new
14     stories need to have controversy.  Unfortunately, I
15     have seen that sort of shift; and it is not just the
16     CBC, but all media to some degree.
17  571                  Lastly, as I said, many of the things
18     have been said.  I grew up listening to CBC radio. 
19     Where I lived outside of Vancouver, I was about 150
20     yards from the main CBC transmitters.  I couldn't help
21     but listen to CBC radio frankly, in many cases.  But I
22     enjoyed it.
23  572                  Just one other thing about the CBC --
24     and this is talking about the negative stuff.
25  573                  It seems to me that often the CBC


 1     sees itself as being the only source of culture in
 2     Canada.  About three or four years ago when one report
 3     came down that looked at the CBC, the NFB and Telefilm,
 4     for about a week and a half on CBC news all you heard
 5     was about how the report talked about the CBC.  Very
 6     seldom did you ever hear them talk about Telefilm or
 7     the NFB.  You had "The Journal" at the time that would
 8     spend a whole half hour on the troubles and trials of
 9     the CBC.  At the beginning of the news, there would be
10     ten minutes' worth of the CBC.  Yet, there were two
11     other organizations that were talked about in the same
12     report.
13  574                  I wish sometimes the CBC would step
14     back.  I guess what I am saying is that I don't think
15     they do themselves good service when they seem to be
16     self-serving in some of those news reports and news
17     coverages that they do about issues surrounding the
18     CBC.
19  575                  I know there were comments at the
20     time about that particular issues.  I think the CBC
21     needs to step back and realize that yes, they are an
22     important part of the cultural mosaic of this country. 
23     But we had culture before the CBC existed, and we will
24     have culture forever and ever.  It may change and be
25     different.  They have a role to play, but they have to


 1     realize that they are part of a larger community. 
 2     Sometimes I think they only see themselves as being
 3     "the" community.
 4  576                  Those are some comments.  Thank you.
 5     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 6  577                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Just for the
 7     record, Mr. Boyko, you are with the Museum Association
 8     of Saskatchewan?
 9  578                  MR. BOYKO:  Did I say B.C.?
10  579                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.
11  580                  MR. BOYKO:  I knew I was going to do
12     that.  I just moved here.
13  581                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
14  582                  Mr. Secretary.
15                                                        1546
16  583                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
17  584                  Jonathan Bingham, please.
19  585                  MR. BINGHAM:  Madam Chair,
20     Commissioner, my name is Jonathan Bingham.  I am here
21     because I owe a great debt to the many wise and
22     wonderful people in the broadcasting industry, namely
23     the BBC and CBC.  These people have sparked my interest
24     in many particular topics, increased by knowledge bank
25     and showed me where to find more information.


 1  586                  I listen to the CBC radio every day
 2     of my life, starting around 5:00 a.m. and finishing
 3     when "As it Happens" signs off at 8:00 p.m.  My
 4     preferred listening is Radio Two.  the reason I prefer
 5     radio is that I can work and do other things while
 6     listening.  On the other hand, when I watch TV I become
 7     chair-bound and inactive, which is a very, very
 8     dangerous comfort zone.
 9  587                  I will present the germ of an idea
10     for the future of the CBC.  However, I have no idea of
11     the extent of the Commission's powers on the CBC's
12     mandate, et cetera.
13  588                  CBC Present Situation:  There are
14     people in power who are extremely vocal in their wish
15     to see the CBC eliminated.  On the other side, there is
16     a silent majority who wants the CBC to be successful. 
17     I am pleased to see that this silent majority has a
18     voice at these important Commission hearings.
19  589                  The main programs on Radio Two are
20     excellent.  I hear a wide variety of music, literature
21     and opinions that are both instructive and
22     entertaining.  It is evident that some autonomy is
23     given to local stations because a few Radio Two
24     broadcasts originate in Halifax, Vancouver and Calgary,
25     et cetera.  There is a good representation of


 1     provincial music makers -- orchestras, choirs, et
 2     cetera.
 3  590                  Unfortunately, the content of news
 4     broadcasts follows the contemporary pattern of "if it's
 5     a scandal or if it bleeds it leads", followed by all
 6     the gloom and doom of the day.  However, all the
 7     overseas news reporters do an excellent job of
 8     providing all of the facts on international news items
 9     in a short space of time.
10  591                  On the other hand, Radio One's "As it
11     Happens", which unfortunately has been severely
12     restricted by budget restraints, is an excellent news
13     program.  It presents a wide variety of national and
14     international news items.  The presentation and
15     production are specific, crisp, lively, instructing and
16     entertaining.  This program is popular across America
17     and it should be a CBC "banner" program.
18  592                  The CBC "National" is a mirror image
19     of commercial TV news broadcasts with all the negative
20     traits -- commonly known as Infotainment.
21  593                  The Future:  In my opinion, CBC and
22     Radio-Canada must develop programs which present every
23     positive aspect of the Canadian lifestyle, culture,
24     commerce, industry and our country, province by
25     province, to the Nation.


 1  594                  To achieve this goal, there must be a
 2     working partnership between the CBC, Radio-Canada and
 3     the National Film Board.  In addition, the provincial
 4     CBC stations must be given total autonomy to produce
 5     these programs.
 6  595                  The resulting programs will allow
 7     Canadians to experience the sights, sounds and culture
 8     of the people in every province.  Most Canadians have
 9     neither the money nor the time to travel to gain these
10     experiences first hand.
11  596                  In addition, this understanding of
12     our fellow Canadians will create a unifying emotion,
13     which will be politically persuasive.  This should
14     silence the CBC critics and the divisive forces in
15     Canada.
16  597                  The following excellent Canadian
17     programs should be retained:
18  598                  "Canadian Royal Air Farce" and "This
19     Hour Has 22 Minutes".  These are watch dogs on the
20     actions and words of our politicians and power brokers.
21  599                  "On the Road Again" and "Country
22     Canada" are programs which present Canadians to other
23     Canadians.
24  600                  These programs must replace the
25     existing foreign shows.  This no doubt will create a


 1     backlash from the American TV industry, which
 2     incidentally is adequately represented on Canadian
 3     commercial stations.  They have to understand that this
 4     is our broadcasting network, and they must be taught to
 5     keep their noses out of it.
 6  601                  This suggestion will require
 7     additional funding and in some instances additional
 8     space for regional stations.  In my opinion, this
 9     funding should come from provincial contributions taken
10     from government gambling profits.  The premiers and
11     other politicians have a lot to say about Canadian
12     unity.  This is an opportunity for them to back up
13     their statements with money or alternatively keep their
14     mouths shut.
15  602                  My gut feeling is that the CBC is an
16     autocratic pyramid shaped organization with the usual
17     barriers around each internal division.  This
18     suggestion will require a complete revision of the
19     corporate organization.  The guidelines for this
20     revision can be found in the book titled "Firing on all
21     Cylinders...the Service/Quality System for High Powered
22     Corporate Performance", authored by Jim Clemmens.
23  603                  Personally speaking, when I hear that
24     a program has an executive producer, an associate
25     producer and a producer, I am inclined to think that


 1     the CBC has too many management levels.
 2  604                  I would suggest that "The National"
 3     should be revised and present the news from the
 4     provincial stations and allocate one 20-minute segment
 5     to a detailed report on one major international event
 6     that will affect Canada and Canadians.  I am sure that
 7     this can be achieved using current technology and the
 8     excellent CBC foreign correspondents.
 9  605                  Finally, this suggestion will require
10     detailed and careful preparation; careful planning,
11     persistence and the involvement and dedication of all
12     Radio-Canada, CBC and National Film Board staff. 
13     Adequate time for preparation is also essential.
14  606                  I thank you for the opportunity to
15     express my opinion on the future of the CBC and to wish
16     you success in the daunting task of finalizing this
17     issue.
18  607                  Thank you.
19     --- Applause / Applaudissements
20  608                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
21     Bingham.
22  609                  Mr. Secretary.
23                                                        1555
24  610                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
25  611                  Ida Grosse, please.


 1  612                  MS GROSSE:  Do I have to turn my
 2     microphone on?
 3  613                  MR. LAHAY:  Yes, please turn on your
 4     micropohone.
 6  614                  MS GROSSE:  Good afternoon, everyone. 
 7     I don't have to tell you that this is the first time I
 8     have done this kind of a presentation, if I forget to
 9     turn on my mic.
10  615                  I appreciate this opportunity to be
11     here on behalf of myself to speak to the CBC.  As far
12     as I know, I am the only person who is still running
13     around with two "Vote For CBC" bumper stickers on her
14     car.  I have been watching for others, but I haven't
15     seen them.
16  616                  I am a senior who lives alone in
17     rural Saskatchewan, and I relate very much to what I
18     have heard from other rural people here.
19  617                  I want to say that the CBC is like
20     family to me.  I breakfast with Sheila and her team.  I
21     lunch with Lindy and the cast, and I sup with Colin.
22  618                  I do not have cable television.  My
23     TV time is limited, but I do have my favourite
24     programs, and you have heard some of them mentioned
25     here.


 1  619                  Many of my thoughts and feelings have
 2     already been expressed here today, so I won't repeat
 3     them.  But I must say that CBC radio is very, very
 4     vital to me in my life.
 5  620                  Local regions are not adequately
 6     covered in national media.  National coverage is too
 7     much USA coverage, I find.  It really irks me when the
 8     national news comes on and the first item is something
 9     that happened across the border, and something vital
10     that happened here gets second or third place.
11  621                  Foreign news coverage is excellent. 
12     I get to go all over the world.  I can see Israel and
13     Istanbul and even India, which really broadens my
14     horizons.
15  622                  Saskatchewan has an abundance of
16     distance.  I don't have to tell you, but some of the
17     others might not know that.  You can't drive many
18     kilometres to pick up a daily newspaper to get the
19     news.  We depend on the CBC.
20  623                  Rural areas would be very limited if
21     it were not for the CBC, particularly the radio, in
22     learning and hearing about world events.
23  624                  I appreciate CBC's accent on the
24     people of the world as it is done on "As it Happens". 
25     The morning programs that we have had with Peter


 1     Gzowski and Alan Maitland really open the world up for
 2     those of us who keep our time in the kitchen.  They are
 3     great company.
 4  625                  I feel the interviews done with
 5     people involved in the news are more real and almost
 6     like speaking with a neighbour as opposed to what comes
 7     through the written word.
 8  626                  Recently I have been out of the
 9     country for a time, and this gave me a vivid reality
10     check on how well we are served by the CBC, even with
11     all of its problems and its faults.
12  627                  It's something like Gilles(ph) Brown
13     said: that the farther away you get from the mountain,
14     the more vivid it is to you.  That is what I saw with
15     the coverage I witnessed when I was away.  It really
16     made me value what we have here.
17  628                  The human touch is non existent on
18     CNN coverage.  To me, there one sees a very marked view
19     of world affairs.  As a senior living alone, I need the
20     company of the CBC, and I know I speak for many others
21     who also have grey hair.
22  629                  I just read that 12 per cent of
23     Canadians are aged over 65 years of age, so we are a
24     formidable group.
25  630                  I was also told by someone who could


 1     not come, or was not brave enough to brave the roads to
 2     come in this morning from outlying areas, and was
 3     disappointed about the geographic location; that there
 4     was just one spot in Saskatchewan to come to.  Much as
 5     I appreciate this opportunity, there are those who
 6     would have liked to have come too.
 7  631                  I feel keeping company with the CBC 
 8     helps our general health, especially as we are older,
 9     and wards off depression.  Where else are programs like
10     "Tapestry", "Quirks and Quarks", "As it Happens" and
11     "Ideas" -- for which I have a very special spot in my
12     heart -- "Richardson's Round-up", or, as I said, our
13     local morning programs.
14  632                  "Cross Country Checkup" gives you a
15     feeling of the pulse throughout the country.  You can
16     hear the people from the east coast to the west coast
17     on that Sunday afternoon program.  It is so important
18     to me that I try to schedule my travelling during that
19     time, which means I don't get on the line, but I do get
20     to hear.
21  633                  These are some of the mainstays in my
22     listening calendar.
23  634                  When I called to make this
24     appointment, I wasn't given much guidance on what would
25     happen, so I didn't have a very prepared transcript.  I


 1     am glad I was here to listen and to voice my thoughts. 
 2     But I did want to answer your questions on the question
 3     that came out to me.
 4  635                  The first question was:
 5                            "In your view, how well does the
 6                            CBC fulfil its role as the
 7                            national public broadcaster?"
 8  636                  I think it needs broader horizons and
 9     more Canadian artistic promotions; larger Canadian
10     content and news happening to people; and history truly
11     related to Quebec and truly related to the USA.
12  637                  Local coverage is regional in
13     content; national coverage should have primary emphasis
14     on Canadian news.  I feel the CBC remains a strong
15     bonding force for Canada.  I believe it is essential to
16     our country remaining a country.
17  638                  I would like to say here another
18     obvious thing that hit me very forcibly when I was out
19     of the country.  We are in a war for our minds and for
20     our air space.  This hit me so hard I became very
21     frightened about what is happening to our country as a
22     country.  I think it really emphasizes the importance
23     of the CBC.  We need it.
24  639                  Programs like "Morning Edition" on
25     radio give good rapport with local events, and "People


 1     Noon Edition" provides links with agriculture, industry
 2     in our province.  And as Saskatchewan is such an
 3     agricultural province, we certainly need to all
 4     understand the conditions there.
 5  640                  "As it Happens" opens the window to
 6     rural events and people.
 7  641                  The second question on your form is:
 8                            "How well does the CBC serve the
 9                            public on a regional as well as
10                            at a national level?"
11  642                  I believe I have already answered
12     that with all the points I have made.
13                            "Should the programming provided
14                            by CBC radio and television be
15                            different from that provided by
16                            other broadcasters?  If so, what
17                            should these differences be?"
18  643                  I think it should have more definite
19     Canadian focus.  I would like to see true
20     documentaries, dramas dealing with things like our
21     Aboriginal people, our true history.
22  644                  I was surprised to learn a fact of
23     history that really blew me off the chair.  Long ago,
24     in the seventeen hundreds when there was a civil war
25     down across the line, and Britain was involved with the


 1     southern forces.  For that reason, they were sent a
 2     bill in many, many millions of dollars to pay for war
 3     damages, and the deal was that if the seceded Canada,
 4     they would cancel the debt.
 5  645                  That is the kind of history we have
 6     to hear.  I think we should know our background.
 7  646                  Not only are we rich in resources in
 8     Canada, but we are also rich in ethnic cultures.  We
 9     could do a lot of studies on the Dukhobors, the
10     Mennonites, many other groups that are here.  We, as
11     Canadians, should know about these people, should know
12     fully about them.  The CBC could serve this purpose.
13                            "Is there a special role that
14                            the CBC should play?
15  647                  Broaden our horizons in art,
16     literature, music, history.  We need to learn and
17     experience full Canadian culture.
18  648                  I thank you for this opportunity.
19  649                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
20     Grosse.  Drive carefully.
21  650                  Mr. Secretary.
22                                                        1605
23  651                  MR. LAHAY:  thank you, Madam chair.
24  652                  Brian Cousins, please.


 1  653                  MR. COUSINS:  Thank you.  I am here
 2     today because I highly value the CBC for its
 3     contribution to the cultural and political wellbeing of
 4     Canada, but I believe the CBC's future potential is in
 5     jeopardy.  At the outset, I should confess to a past
 6     association with the corporation that no doubt
 7     influences my thoughts and my concerns.
 8  654                  I was employed by the CBC for 22
 9     years in Inuvik, Iqaluit, Thunder Bay, Ottawa and
10     Regina.  My last assignment was to serve as Regional
11     Director and Director of Television for CBC English
12     operations in Saskatchewan from 1992 to 1996.  I chose
13     to resign two years ago.  I was simply unwilling to
14     continue what I view as the dismantling of CBC in this
15     province.  I was also concerned about certain
16     programming decisions being imposed upon and being
17     chosen by CBC television management.
18  655                  I maintain my concerns of two years
19     ago, but I present them to you today as a listener and
20     a viewer.  I would like to limit my observations and
21     suggestions to three general areas relating to the CBC.
22  656                  First, its mix of regional and
23     national television programming; second, the need for a
24     more distinctive television service; and third, the
25     issue of public participation in the corporation.


 1  657                  Personally, I believe CBC is much
 2     like the company that it was created to reflect. 
 3     Canada is a massive nation with the confederation that,
 4     not surprisingly, includes tensions between its centre
 5     and its regions.  There is a constant challenge to
 6     balance regional and national interests.
 7  658                  It is my sense, having lived in
 8     several regions, that the confederation works best when
 9     key regional aspirations are adequately addressed.  I
10     would describe these key aspirations as an adequate
11     level of regional autonomy, a fair share of regional
12     opportunity and a nationally recognized sense of
13     regional identity and value.
14  659                  Similarly, I believe our national
15     public broadcaster could better meet its mandate if
16     these legitimate regional aspirations were more fully
17     addressed within the operations of the CBC.
18  660                  However, largely because of the
19     government's attack on CBC budget, the
20     regional/national mix of CBC television programming is
21     seriously imbalanced.  This weakens the relevance of
22     CBC service in the regions such as Saskatchewan, which
23     in turn could undermine CBC television's national role. 
24     The result may be to further erode the public's
25     relation to and confidence in the CBC.


 1  661                  Between 1991 and 1996 CBC
 2     Saskatchewan's budgets were reduced by about 25 per
 3     cent, but with new technology, new approaches to
 4     co-production with independent producers, new
 5     flexibility in CBC union agreements and a lot of hard
 6     work by some very talented staff, the quantity and
 7     quality of CBC Saskatchewan television production was
 8     growing.
 9  662                  In addition to the first priority of
10     maintaining strong regional journalism, four regional
11     television production priorities had been established. 
12     They included providing a television stage for
13     Saskatchewan performers, producing television programs
14     reflecting the interests and ideas of Saskatchewan's
15     young people, developing programs that could help
16     bridge the serious communication gap between aboriginal
17     and non-aboriginal peoples in this province, and
18     continuing the expansion and variety of co-production
19     activity with independent Saskatchewan producers for
20     both regional and national broadcast.
21  663                  But with the Federal government's
22     last swing of the axe, and with the apparent
23     acquiescence of the CBC's board of directors, two years
24     ago these regional initiatives came crashing to an end;
25     and with their demise came denied opportunities for


 1     Saskatchewan writers, performers, artists and
 2     technicians, to say nothing of denied opportunities for
 3     Saskatchewan viewers.
 4  664                  Resources for regional journalism
 5     were significantly reduced.  Resources for all other
 6     programming, budgets and people were wiped out.
 7  665                  As with Canada itself, the CBC cannot
 8     meet its mandate, cannot properly contribute to the
 9     health of the federation if its regional aspirations
10     are thwarted.  Canadians need a CBC board of directors
11     that will stand up for the CBC's role as defined in the
12     Broadcasting Act.  The ineffectiveness of the CBC in
13     this regard is disheartening.
14  666                  Incidentally, I note that
15     Saskatchewan has not had a representative on the CBC
16     board since 1971.
17  667                  The corporation's unions seem more
18     willing to speak up for public broadcasting than the
19     corporation's board.  If neither the Federal Cabinet
20     nor the CBC board will defend the Broadcasting Act and
21     the CBC's regional mandate, we must look to the CRTC to
22     address this issue through the licence renewal process.
23  668                  The lack of commitment to CBC
24     regional programming provides a convenient segue to the
25     need for CBC television to become a more distinctive


 1     and more valued Canadian television service.  CBC can
 2     be justifiably proud in demonstrating that its program
 3     content has been and continues to be distinctive when
 4     compared to private sector broadcasters, particularly
 5     with respect to the variety and magnitude of Canadian
 6     programming.  But CBC television continues to behave
 7     and portray itself as just another network, obsessed
 8     with competition and with the private network image.
 9  669                  Let me mention just two examples with
10     regional implications.
11  670                  Regional CBC news as repeatedly been
12     kicked around as "The National", moved from 11 o'clock,
13     to 10 o'clock, to 9 o'clock, back to 10 o'clock.  Then
14     "The National" was scheduled twice on the main network
15     and twice on CBC Newsworld so that it could
16     cumulatively claim a larger audience than CTV's
17     national news.
18  671                  "The National" is a terrific program,
19     but a fourth nightly broadcast of "The National" in
20     this region, and every other region, at the expense of
21     providing a regional news alternative at 11 o'clock, is
22     really just a Toronto-centric decision that offends the
23     sensibilities of the regions.
24  672                  A second example.  Instead of taking
25     a fresh alternative approach to regional news and


 1     current affairs, CBC insists of having supper-hour
 2     shows competing head to head with private stations in
 3     every region, sometimes with dismal ratings.  The
 4     opportunity to be truly distinctive, to carve out a
 5     niche to provide an alternative is lost because CBC
 6     continues to roll out formula-driven smiling news teams
 7     behind the anchor desk, just like every other station.
 8  673                  For the public, if CBC television
 9     looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a
10     duck, chances are it will be considered a duck, no
11     matter how special its feathers.  It is time for CBC
12     television, in my view, to move to the other side of
13     the pond to become a swan.
14  674                  Time does not permit me to discuss
15     the many ways in which this might be done and how such
16     a transformation might actually increase its ratings. 
17     But let me mention one essential element that would
18     make it more distinctive, and that is regional hosting
19     and regional programming.
20  675                  By definition, greater regional
21     content will contribute to the distinctiveness of CBC
22     in the 200-channel universe.  All of the new channels
23     are national or international in content and target
24     audience, and private stations do little regional
25     programming of any depth beyond local news.  Even a


 1     modest commitment to regional programming would also
 2     help the corporation to better reflect the regions of
 3     the country, one to another.
 4  676                  Let me add that I do not personally
 5     believe that CBC should become more distinctive by only
 6     providing alternative minority audience programming. 
 7     This is a cherished model for CBC radio, but if applied
 8     to CBC television, the corporation's programming might
 9     reach less than a quarter of the population.  That is
10     not good enough.
11  677                  I believe CBC television must
12     continue to include significant blocks of mass appeal
13     Canadian programming in its schedule.  It must continue
14     to help counter the staggering social influence of
15     American programming with Canadian television
16     experiences, presented through a mix of popular and
17     alternative programming.
18  678                  Just a short aside here.  To ensure a
19     symbiotic relationship between CBC radio and
20     television, and to use resources sufficiently, I have
21     to tell you my personal view is and has been that radio
22     and television's operations at the regional level
23     should be fully integrated.  The current split,
24     radio/television, may have reason in Toronto, but I
25     believe is wasteful and counter-productive when applied


 1     in the regions.
 2  679                  Let me conclude with my final point.
 3  680                  Through these public consultations
 4     being conducted by the CRTC, the Commission is helping
 5     to compensate for the inability of the CBC to regularly
 6     engage the public in the business of public
 7     broadcasting.  Similar to CBC television often being
 8     considered just another network, I fear the CBC itself
 9     is increasingly seen as just another corporation.
10  681                  Although Canadians may understand
11     that the CBC is intended to serve public interests and
12     use its public funds to do so, the CBC has not been
13     very successful in achieving public accountability and
14     public participation in its operations.
15  682                  To some extent, this has enabled the
16     government to ruthlessly attack the CBC because for
17     many Canadians the CBC is seen as aloof and distant. 
18     Canadians lack a sense of ownership and influence when
19     it comes to the CBC.  I believe this will only change
20     if there is a sincere and philosophical commitment
21     within the CBC to lower the drawbridge and let the
22     public cross the moat.  Again, this can I believe best
23     be done on a regional basis.
24  683                  In fact, here is a suggestion -- and
25     I will just wrap this up right away:  It may be time to


 1     consider creating, at almost no cost, a citizens
 2     council for each region, consisting of members
 3     appointed by existing organizations representing the
 4     broad audience sectors.  We would then want to ensure
 5     that regional and national management in an open public
 6     forum would meet and respond to such a council at least
 7     once or twice a year.
 8  684                  There has to be those connections to
 9     the community, the ownership that would come from it. 
10     Among other things, I think a citizens council might
11     also heighten public awareness and discussion about the
12     role of journalism in a democracy, why it is important,
13     and why there are serious consequences if journalism is
14     left solely to the private corporate sector.
15  685                  Madam Commissioner, the CBC is a
16     national treasure.  It is an essential element of
17     Canada's identity.  I think it is time to put the
18     public back in public broadcasting.
19  686                  Thank you very much.
20     --- Applause / Applaudissements
21  687                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
22     Cousins.
23  688                  Mr. Secretary.
24                                                        1616
25  689                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.


 1  690                  Norman Bray, please.
 3  691                  MR. BRAY:  Commissioners, ladies and
 4     gentlemen, the Regina Chapter of the Council of
 5     Canadians is pleased to speak in support of public
 6     broadcasting and in support of the Canadian
 7     Broadcasting Corporation.
 8  692                  I should say that the Council of
 9     Canadians are advocates but they are not lawyers, so in
10     your list of participants the spelling of "counsel"
11     should be changed to the alternative.
12  693                  I would like to speak my agreement
13     with all the excellent presentations that we have heard
14     this afternoon.
15  694                  Canada shares a border and shares
16     communications with the dominant United States of
17     America.  Canada is thus submerged in the messages of a
18     foreign nation.  The CBC is one of the few means by
19     which we provide a Canadian voice and a Canadian
20     perspective to inform us of what is happening in Canada
21     and in the world.  So CBC is essential to the
22     preservation of a Canadian identity.
23  695                  There is no adequate alternative in
24     sight.  It is likely it will always be more expedient
25     for a commercial broadcaster in Canada to import United


 1     States programming than to develop Canadian
 2     programming.  The mere presence of U.S. programming,
 3     along with other U.S. communications, infers to
 4     Canadians that things Canadian are inferior, or why
 5     else wouldn't we see Canadian material being presented
 6     and talked about?
 7  696                  I want to give you a personal
 8     example.
 9  697                  When I was attending university, I
10     worked one summer with the pipeline.  The skilled
11     workers on the pipeline were from Texas, Oklahoma and
12     Louisiana, and I would be enthralled by their stories
13     of working across the lines in North America and into
14     Africa.  I believed that these were the people that
15     knew how to pipeline.
16  698                  There was on the crew a Canadian
17     operator, a backhoe operator from Manitoba.  I said to
18     him one day:  "These Americans really know how to build
19     pipelines."  And he said:  "Oh, I don't know.  I think
20     a Canadian can do just as well.  Me and other
21     Canadians, we certainly can pipeline."
22  699                  And of course they can.  We have
23     proven that.  But why would I, as a 20-year-old
24     Saskatchewan youth about to graduate from our
25     provincial university have such a deplorable attitude


 1     towards Canada and Canadians?  While I didn't argue
 2     with this operator of the backhoe, I walked away from
 3     the conversation and said to myself:  "No, he is
 4     totally wrong and he is lucky to have a semi-skilled
 5     job in this operation."
 6  700                  Why would you have such a deplorable
 7     attitude?  I think it has to be because you have had 20
 8     years of absorbing American movies, American
 9     publications, American TV and American broadcasting. 
10     It is insidious the way this inferior complex affects
11     Canadians.  We need to do something about it, because
12     it is still happening.
13  701                  Canadians will need to pay for an
14     adequate CBC service.  This expense should be seen as
15     an investment in Canada and in the continuation of our
16     nation, not as a cost.  There seems to be a sure
17     connection between a Canada that appears to have lost
18     its way, has become increasingly colonized by the
19     United States in recent years and a CBC that seems to
20     have become confined and neutered.
21  702                  We might measure the worth of the CBC
22     by its listeners and its viewers.  There is also a
23     wider gauge.  CBC seems to set a standard for private
24     as well as public broadcasters.  A strong CBC forces
25     private competitors to improve services; a weakened CBC


 1     allows private broadcasting to decline as well.
 2  703                  A healthy nation needs to know about
 3     itself, to have reports and opinions from all segments
 4     of the country.  Citizens need to know what is going on
 5     in the world, how Canadians fit into the world, and
 6     what effect Canada is having on the world.  We need to
 7     know how people around the world are responding to
 8     Canada and to Canadians.
 9  704                  The alternative to the CBC can be
10     frightening in the poverty of its offerings.  For
11     radio, there is basically two choices:  CBC or the
12     other station.  Although there may be several other
13     stations, most non-CBC stations tend to have the same
14     fare:  canned programs of western music or hits of the
15     past, advertisements and little else, although there
16     may be a syndicated U.S. columnist or some U.S. or
17     local talk radio.
18  705                  For information or for challenging or
19     interesting opinion, or to be somewhat aware of current
20     events in Canadian industry or finance, or to be aware
21     of the arts in Canada, the listener must return to CBC
22     radio.
23  706                  In the case of television, we select
24     from perhaps 60 channels but perhaps half a dozen of
25     these will be Canadian; and on these, most viewing time


 1     will be on U.S. programming.  Only CBC has been able to
 2     bring significant Canadian programming.
 3  707                  CBC is not as good as it was. 
 4     Perhaps we recall a golden period in the past.  The CBC
 5     is at increasing peril.  We fear that the CBC is being
 6     sabotaged by the which should be
 7     its defender and preserver.
 8  708                  The fact that we have a strike now,
 9     which will certainly be seen as diminishing the worth
10     of CBC -- and no doubt will -- may be a strike that has
11     been forced by management and by government to increase
12     that sabotaging of that service.
13  709                  The CBC has suffered over the years
14     from cuts to funding.  This shows most obviously in the
15     amount of repeat broadcasting.  A program originally
16     broadcast a year ago may be rebroadcast on a CBC
17     program in the morning and then that program will be
18     repeated in the evening.
19  710                  The international services suffered,
20     the national services suffered and at the regional
21     level the CBC has almost ceased to exist.
22  711                  Just as CBC is not as good as it was,
23     private radio and television is not as good as it used
24     to be and we have noted that these are related.
25  712                  Private broadcasting also suffers


 1     from consolidation of ownership and from large
 2     cutbacks.
 3  713                  Broadcasting throughout has become
 4     less involved with hard news and investigation and with
 5     public service.  It has become more geared to
 6     entertainment, more frivolous, much less informing or
 7     educating.  Sadly, it appears that broadcasting is
 8     primarily intended to promote commercial films and
 9     musical releases.
10  714                  We suspect that the CBC is being made
11     less attractive on purpose.  Government strategy seems
12     to be to make the CBC disappointing so that even its
13     strongest supporters who are represented here today
14     lose heart and say, "Well, if that's all there is, kill
15     it."  Those with progressive views find that they are
16     losing the opportunity to express their opinions on a
17     neutered CBC that operates in fear of government's ire. 
18     They will also say, "If that's all there is, let it
19     die."
20  715                  We believe that the CBC did fulfil
21     its role as a national public broadcaster effectively
22     in the past.  Now it's not as good as it might be.  It
23     must restore effectiveness, especially with regard to
24     regional services.
25  716                  Should CBC fulfil its role in a


 1     different manner with the coming of the millennium? 
 2     The CBC will find that it must be aware of changing
 3     technology such as the Internet and that it must adapt
 4     to these changes, but its basic mandate should be
 5     unchanged.  It appears that the famed Year 2000 will be
 6     plagued with a heavy load of problems, economic,
 7     political, technical as well as riots and wars.  It is
 8     not going to be a millennium, as you might expect.
 9  717                  A major consideration for the CBC in
10     Year 2000 will be to re-examine what is left of an
11     autonomous Canada and to determine what the CBC can do
12     to help to restore nationalhood.  We have stressed the
13     failing of the CBC at the regional level.  However, in
14     a rural province that is consolidating in every way,
15     regional broadcasting is essential.
16  718                  CBC broadcasting should be different
17     from other broadcasters.  It must serve to unite
18     Canadians, must help to maintain a Canadian perspective
19     and the Canadian identity.  It must develop Canadian
20     broadcasting and performing talent.  It must try to
21     unite French and English Canada.  It must document and
22     demonstrate the place of aboriginal Canadians.  Profit
23     cannot be the controlling guideline for such
24     broadcasting.
25  719                  There is a continuing role just to do


 1     a good job of journalism and of broadcasting.  There
 2     are specific audiences that must be served, rural
 3     Canada, minorities, interest groups, that require a
 4     publicly financed broadcaster to meet their needs. 
 5     Those needs increase in a changing and consolidating
 6     Canada.  Canada can afford a reliable, authoritative
 7     public broadcaster, a public broadcaster that is free
 8     from government control but assured public funding.  A
 9     public broadcaster, not a state broadcaster or a
10     propagandist for government.
11  720                  We must beware of those who argue for
12     the extinction of the CBC, that would expand the way
13     for those opposing the CBC to have their assumptions
14     and their opinions dominate our airwaves.
15  721                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
16     Mr. Bray.
17     --- Applause / Applaudissements
18  722                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Secretary.
19                                                        1628
20  723                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
21  724                  M. Marcel Michaud, s'il vous plaît.
23  725                  M. MICHAUD:  Madame la Présidente,
24     chers Membres du Conseil, mesdames et messieurs, un
25     grand merci de m'avoir permis aujourd'hui de venir ici


 1     et d'exprimer mes idées en ce qui a trait à la radio et
 2     à la télévision française, mais aussi les quelques
 3     références que je vais faire au CBC s'appliquent
 4     également.
 5  726                  Je viens de Valbourg(ph), deux heures
 6     de route d'ici et je travaille au Collège Mathieu, une
 7     école privée résidentielle française, la seule et
 8     unique dans l'ouest du Canada.  Je suis venu aussi
 9     aujourd'hui parce que moi aussi j'ai peur qu'on coupe
10     davantage ces services du côté anglais et
11     particulièrement du côté français.
12  727                  Deux commentaires avant. 
13     Aujourd'hui, la technologie ne nous permet pas de ne
14     pas avoir accès à la radio ou à la télévision.  Il est
15     important que les gens soient branchés et qu'ils aient
16     les signaux auxquels ils ont droit.  Je dis ça parce
17     que je viens de passer six ans dans le nord de
18     l'Alberta dans la région de Slave Lake et High Prairie
19     et ça été très frustrant pour moi de ne pas pouvoir
20     recevoir les signaux de la radio et de la télévision,
21     en particulier, parce que le patron de cablevision, et
22     j'ai vu ça aussi il y a à peu près un mois, en
23     Saskatchewan, où le patron avait coupé le câble.  Donc,
24     on ne pouvait pas recevoir les signaux.
25  728                  Ce n'est pas acceptable, de nos


 1     jours.  On ne peut pas laisser passer ces choses car
 2     les gens ont droit au moins à un service ou un minimum
 3     de service, même si ce n'est qu'un service, un canal
 4     sur 37.  Ce n'est pas trop demandé.
 5  729                  Mais j'ai remarqué aussi au cours des
 6     années une baisse remarquable en ce qui a trait aux
 7     services, surtout locaux et régionaux.  Je suis certain
 8     qu'en majorité cette baisse a été le résultat de
 9     coupures budgétaires mais aussi peut-être
10     philosophiques et d'orientation.
11  730                  Mais personnellement, j'ai fait
12     l'expérience que ce n'est pas seulement ces coupures-là
13     qui affectent notre clientèle mais c'est la qualité de
14     la personnalité qui est à la radio, à la télévision, et
15     qui donne les services.  Je peux parler par exemple
16     d'Allan Maitland ou Peter Gzowski ou Vicki Gabereau et
17     même "Les Impudences(ph)" de Michael Enright.  Mais il
18     y a quand même une qualité qui est là et la qualité du
19     service de la personnalité qui est là est très
20     importante parce que cette qualité-là, surtout au
21     niveau local, au niveau régional, c'est ce qui fait
22     coller les gens.  Quand le monsieur a parlé
23     justement... M. Cousins a parlé de la connection à la
24     communauté, c'est très important.  Et donc, la
25     personnalité... être présent dans la communauté, c'est


 1     ce qui nous garde à l'écoute.  Je peux parler de "Clan
 2     destin".  Je peux parler des "Gens" d'Anne Brochu
 3     sur...  Alors, ces gens-là doivent être à la
 4     communauté.  Ce sont des personnages qui doivent être
 5     présents dans le local et être au sein de la communauté
 6     qui donnent cette connection.
 7  731                  Je vois et je remarque, même à cause
 8     des coupures, un dévouement extraordinaire chez le
 9     personnel à l'intérieur de notre communauté
10     francophone.  Je sais que souvent ces gens-là sont
11     emmerdants ou sont fatigants parce qu'ils osent nous
12     demander des questions qu'on n'ose même pas se poser
13     nous-mêmes.  Mais néanmoins, on voit que malgré les
14     coupures énormes de la dernière décennie, ils ont su
15     bien choisir pour continuer à desservir une petite
16     population si fragile ici dans l'ouest et plus
17     particulièrement en Saskatchewan.
18  732                  Parmi la programmation de la SRC, la
19     Société ici en Saskatchewan, et à cause du dévouement
20     de travail continu de ces gens-là et la raison de la
21     qualité, il y a une attention très claire qui ressort
22     parmi tout cela et c'est l'intérêt particulier et
23     sincère non seulement à la survie mais à
24     l'épanouissement de notre communauté francophone, et
25     malgré le peu de population, on essaie dans la mesure


 1     du possible de représenter et de faire valoir les
 2     Fransaskois et les Fransaskoises.
 3  733                  Dans une situation minoritaire telle
 4     que nous vivons où l'assimilation et la facilité
 5     d'accès à l'information anglaise est à tous les coins
 6     de rue, ce n'est pas facile de maintenir cette
 7     présence, cet esprit, ce dévouement, sans partir au
 8     désespoir.  Est-ce que ça vaut la peine avec si peu de
 9     gens?  Croyez-moi, la radio et la télévision sont à la
10     croisière de notre survie.
11  734                  Je vais vous dire pourquoi il est
12     tellement facile de ne plus être à l'écoute, parce
13     qu'essentiellement, il est trop facile de se tourner du
14     côté anglais, non seulement parce qu'on y retrouve
15     tellement de choses locales et en général on a besoin
16     de se renseigner, et lorsque la programmation nous
17     vient d'un coin du pays dont on connaît moins bien son
18     vécu, on a tendance de décrocher.  C'est ce qui peut
19     facilement se faire lorsqu'il y a trop de programmation
20     qui nous provient de l'extérieur du Québec et de
21     l'Ontario.
22  735                  Pour moi, au Collège Mathieu, pour
23     promouvoir le français dans un pays bilingue, il nous
24     faut de très bons services et dans notre local, la
25     programmation en français est essentielle.  Alors, pour


 1     ne pas décrocher, il faut la qualité.  Il faut
 2     connaître les issues.  Il faut connaître les gens avec
 3     qui on travaille, les gens qui travaillent dans les
 4     services.
 5  736                  Alors, pour ces raisons, j'aimerais
 6     qu'on considère très sérieusement les points suivants
 7     déterminant l'orientation de la Société Radio-Canada.
 8  737                  J'ai vécu de 1974 à 1978 en Allemagne
 9     et là j'avais un ami qui venait du Québec.  Je ne me
10     souviens pas de la date, mais lorsque Gordon Sinclair
11     est décédé, il ne savait même pas qui était Gordon
12     Sinclair.  Pourtant, c'était un homme qui avait une
13     renommée; détesté ou aimé, ça ne fait rien.  J'ai
14     réalisé à ce moment-là qu'on avait une issue d'unité
15     nationale qui nous manquait.  On avait les différents
16     renseignements.  Comment est-ce qu'on peut s'empêcher
17     d'avoir un pays uni quand on ne reconnaît même pas les
18     supposément héros ou les gens qui ont une certaine
19     réputation quand même?
20  738                  Alors, c'est triste de voir ces
21     choses-là et je vois que la Société Radio-Canada c'est
22     l'instrument qu'il nous faut pour continuer à oeuvrer,
23     à unir notre pays, du côté francophone et du côté
24     anglophone, tout en respectant les services.
25  739                  Donc, la Société Radio-Canada, le


 1     CRTC, les gouvernements et les pouvoirs visionnels
 2     doivent reconnaître le rôle extrêmement difficile que
 3     doit jouer Radio-Canada.  Elle doit tout à la fois
 4     maintenir une vision très claire de l'unité nationale. 
 5     Elle doit le faire en tenant les gens à travers le pays
 6     à l'écoute de l'un et de l'autre, aux issues d'intérêt
 7     à la fois national, régional et local.  Sans cette
 8     vision, elle est réduite à une société privée sujette à
 9     l'influence de ceux qui paient la note, et si cela
10     arrive, on perdra beaucoup de notre identité canadienne
11     qui, elle aussi, est très fragile face à l'influence et
12     l'interférence du dollar américain.
13  740                  La Société se doit aussi de maintenir
14     et d'épanouir la culture canadienne et plus
15     particulièrement de la francophonie.  C'est cela qui
16     lui donne sa survie et maintient l'intérêt de son
17     public.  Ce n'est pas la concurrence d'autres
18     entreprises mais plutôt sa vision.  C'est la qualité
19     qui nous est propre, que les Canadiens peuvent donner,
20     et c'est l'âme de qui nous sommes.  Dans le passé, on a
21     osé offrir des services très uniques.  Ceci doit
22     continuer à se faire.
23  741                  En anglais, il y a un dicton que
24     j'avais appris ça fait longtemps, puis je m'en suis
25     servi souvent:


 1                            "If we think education is
 2                            expensive, we ought to try
 3                            ignorance."
 4  742                  Il est vrai que l'éducation d'un
 5     peuple coûte cher, mais il faut savoir qu'un peuple
 6     ignorant, peu renseigné, sans éducation, coûte encore
 7     plus cher, que ce ne soit pas des coupures ou des
 8     manques de finances qui changent son orientation.
 9  743                  La Société Radio-Canada devrait
10     s'occuper de répondre à sa clientèle canadienne avec du
11     contenu canadien.  Ceci n'empêche aucunement d'avoir de
12     la programmation d'intérêt et d'éducation
13     internationale telle que des documentaires comme "Les
14     grands reportages", mais elle doit rester fidèle à sa
15     communauté.
16  744                  Ce que nous recevons en ce moment en
17     programmation est le minimum qui puisse être fait à
18     notre communauté sans mettre encore plus en danger
19     cette petite communauté francophone déjà si fragile. 
20     On ne peut plus souffrir d'autres coupures, soit
21     financières ou ressources humaines.
22  745                  L'an 2000 devra voir à donner un
23     mandat spécifique à la Société Radio-Canada en ce qui a
24     trait aux services locaux et régionaux, tout en gardant
25     cette vision unique d'unité canadienne.  On va en avoir


 1     besoin.
 2  746                  En beaucoup de sens, la Société de
 3     CBC est au coeur de notre communauté.  Il ne faut pas
 4     perdre ça.  La CBC est le coeur de la culture
 5     anglophone ici au Canada.  Il faut le garder ce coeur
 6     et non pas tomber dans le mainstream tel que d'autres
 7     essaient de faire.  À travers la CBC, la Société
 8     Radio-Canada devrait être à ma porte et la porte de
 9     chacun de vous.
10  747                  Je vous remercie de m'avoir permis de
11     vous adresser la parole aujourd'hui.  J'en suis très
12     reconnaissant et j'espère que la Société Radio-Canada
13     aura toujours des gens de chez nous autant que des gens
14     d'ailleurs pour bâtir un meilleur Canada.  Merci
15     beaucoup.
16     --- Applause / Applaudissements
17  748                  LA PRÉSIDENTE:  Merci,
18     Monsieur Michaud.
19  749                  Mr. Secretary.
20  750                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
21  751                  I would like to call the remaining
22     presenters we have this afternoon of a total of eight
23     more:  Cathy and Andy Anderson, Olive Lukey,
24     Mary Yanko, John O'Donaghue, Tasha Hubbard,
25     Don Archbold, Marge Robinson, and Susan


 1     Hopkins-McQuarrie please.
 2  752                  If you wouldn't mind coming forward
 3     to the front table.
 4  753                  Thank you.
 5  754                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Hello.  We will
 6     just take five minutes for everybody to get settled and
 7     then we will start.
 8     --- Recess / Pause
 9  755                  MR. LAHAY:  (Off microphone/sans
10     microphone) presenters this afternoon.  If we can ask
11     you to remember the 10-minute time limit, if you can,
12     please.
13                                                        1648
14  756                  Cathy and Andy Anderson, please.
16  757                  MR. ANDERSON:  Madam Chairman, thank
17     you for the opportunity.
18  758                  I think one of the first comments I
19     would make is that the mind can only absorb what the
20     seat can endure, and I think the Commissioners have
21     done very well this afternoon.
22  759                  COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  You realize we
23     will be here until 10:00.
24  760                  MR. ANDERSON:  I realize that.
25  761                  I'm going to keep it very short for


 1     myself and then Cathy will talk, and then we have to
 2     leave immediately because she has a sick parent that we
 3     have to move towards.
 4  762                  But on reflecting on the remarks of
 5     the people that have made --
 6  763                  MR. LAHAY:  Sir, could you speak up
 7     please?  They are signalling you.
 8  764                  MR. ANDERSON:  Just some reflection
 9     on the remarks of the presenters earlier this
10     afternoon.
11  765                  Most of them I think have said what
12     we all tend to believe, that there is a need, an
13     essential need, for a strong public broadcasting system
14     in the country.
15  766                  I think one of the things that struck
16     me about it was that there is a common theme that shows
17     while they are diverse in their interests there is that
18     need for public broadcasting committed to the promotion
19     of an intelligent, well-informed citizenry, and that
20     the CBC mandate clearly should not be considered to be
21     elitist, which is I think a very cheap shot by a lot of
22     critics who tend to think that simply because it
23     attempts to create a well-informed public that it is
24     somehow appealing to less than a majority of the
25     people.  I think one of the things that also they do


 1     when they contribute to a well-informed public is that
 2     they convey the values nationally and regionally
 3     throughout the country.
 4  767                  Just an anecdote for the Commission. 
 5     I spent two years travelling this province for the
 6     Canadian Taxpayers Federation as kind of a
 7     semi-retirement activity of mine, and I was
 8     particularly interested in finding out who were the
 9     people who were in fact promoting, shall we say,
10     responsible or prudent financial management of the
11     resources of the country.  I didn't know whether I
12     would be meeting people in rural and urban Saskatchewan
13     who were red necks or right wing or left wing or
14     whatever.
15  768                  One of the things I found, from
16     sitting in about 2,000 farm kitchens over those two
17     years, is that CBC radio was the absolute standard of
18     listening in rural Saskatchewan.  In many of the
19     businesses that I stopped to talk to about their
20     particular requirements, I found again comments where
21     there was -- and, again, it was a point -- there was
22     such an appeal to the radio that several of the
23     business people that I talked to mentioned that they
24     would have been very pleased to have been able to
25     advertise on CBC radio.  It's a point that where the


 1     people listen, that's where business wants to be.  Now,
 2     that may go contrary to the grain of some of the
 3     people, but it was an expression of interest.
 4  769                  So the questions that you asked, the
 5     first question:  How well does it serve the public?  I
 6     think obviously not as well as it could and should be
 7     expected to.
 8  770                  The next question, the difference
 9     between national and regional?  I think it has been
10     conveyed to you very well, that regional has been
11     suffering.
12  771                  The question that should be asked is: 
13     How can you really serve the national interest if you
14     are not serving regional interests?  Because, after
15     all, all national is is the synthesis of regional
16     activity and regional points of view.
17  772                  When you think about what it should
18     be doing, sure it should be obviously different from
19     any other private broadcaster because, first of all,
20     they shouldn't be driven by the bottom line, a point
21     that was pointed out earlier.
22  773                  One of the constant criticisms that's
23     coming from the United States these days is the dumbing
24     down of a nation through the constant lowering of
25     standards in television broadcasting.  I think one of


 1     the things that we have to worry about in this country,
 2     where we are so well spread out, is that we stay so
 3     well informed so that we don't remain ignorant of the
 4     aspirations and the needs of the diverse peoples that
 5     make up this country of ours.
 6  774                  Finally, what should be a specific
 7     role?  I think one of the things that you want to
 8     really avoid is what bureaucrats try to define.
 9  775                  If you talk about defining the
10     specific role of the CBC as a national public
11     broadcaster, then in fact you may be in danger of
12     limiting its ability to be flexible and reflect the
13     interests of the citizens of this country.  I would say
14     that if you go forward to the government, you have to
15     put a strong case in front of them that there has to be
16     a great deal of flexibility for those creative people
17     who make up that kind of media to be able to respond to
18     those things and they need the resources to do that. 
19     You simply cannot have creativity and flexibility on a
20     bare budget.  I think all of us have to recognize that
21     if you are going to have a good national public system,
22     an average cost of $50 a year per citizen is not a high
23     price to pay.
24  776                  I will pass the rest of this on to my
25     wife, Cathy.


 1  777                  MRS. ANDERSON:  Thank you for this
 2     opportunity.  I have never done this before and I'm
 3     kind of scared.
 4  778                  Anyway.  I'm a CBC baby, and I have
 5     grown up, but in between those awful teenage years I
 6     wasn't a CBC person.  I hated it.  I thought it was
 7     yucky, but I came back.  My kids thought it was yucky. 
 8     They are now older and they have come back.
 9  779                  So I think what you are doing is okay
10     because we do come back.  It's like people going to
11     church.  You know, you weave and you come back.  It's
12     okay.  You kind of get through that funny, muddly part.
13  780                  Regarding local and regional
14     programming, in the Broadcasting Act the objects and
15     the powers in 46.3, it says:
16                            " originate programs,
17                            secure programs from within or
18                            outside Canada by purchase,
19                            exchange..."  (As read)
20  781                  Et cetera, et cetera:
21                            "...and make arrangements
22                            necessary for their
23                            transmission."  (As read)
24  782                  That is not happening.  We have had
25     two premiers and another one to come up in April and


 1     CBC, I think with the lack of funds, is not able to be
 2     there.  That is really sad because they were always
 3     there when something new was going to happen, and I'm
 4     talking mostly about music for that point, so it's
 5     really sad.
 6  783                  The other thing is that I'm not much
 7     of a TV watcher and I don't watch at supper time
 8     because I'm busy making supper, but the 11:30 regional
 9     news is so short and I'm getting older and 11:30 is
10     really getting late.  So why don't we have Peter on at
11     10:00, and he gets it all just nice and then put our
12     regional on?  Then if I want to go to bed or if I want
13     to listen to Peter again, it's okay.  That's my little
14     thing.
15  784                  We do have a wonderful broadcasting
16     centre.  We have facilities.  We did have staff.  Let's
17     use it.  It's not being used any more.  It's criminal.
18  785                  As far as the foreign bureaus, again
19     referring back to the Broadcasting Act, it says:
20                            "...collect news relating to
21                            current events in any part of
22                            the world and establish and
23                            subscribe to new agencies." 
24                            (As read)
25  786                  Do not cut the foreign bureaus. 


 1     Those are Canadian people, for the most part, talking
 2     to Canadians.  I don't want an American telling me,
 3     otherwise I would have cable.  I do not have cable.
 4  787                  CBC is like a community.  It's kind
 5     of funny when you talk to someone and you say, "Did you
 6     hear Sheila this morning?  Did you hear Colin?  Did you
 7     here whoever."  Yes.  But you don't hear them talking
 8     about other radio stations, whatever else is on those
 9     other ones.  We have friends in Calgary and we are
10     talking back and forth, "Hey, did you hear such and
11     such on the radio" or "Did you see something on TV?"
12  788                  It kind of blows your mind.  We think
13     of it as our guys here, but it is all of Canada.  And
14     we do talk to each other, but I think we have to talk
15     more.
16  789                  A point.  I don't know what the
17     weather is in Yellowknife.  They never tell us.  Our
18     national weather and it says Victoria, Vancouver, da,
19     da, da, da, da, never Yellowknife, Whitehorse.  They
20     are part of Canada, too.  I would like that on.
21  790                  I think having it being on the
22     Internet is great.  I can communicate to the media
23     people.  I like doing that.  It's quick and instead of
24     writing a letter and doing this scary stuff I can just
25     sit there and do it.


 1  791                  As far as CBC, it creates so many
 2     spin-offs that I don't think people really realize. 
 3     You are hearing about books, you are hearing about
 4     music, you are hearing about art, you are hearing about
 5     things that are going on in your community.  People go
 6     out and buy those books and buy those magazines and buy
 7     that music and buy that CD.  I just ordered it, too,
 8     this week.
 9  792                  I have taken flute lessons because of
10     CBC.  I have listened to the music and I go, "I just
11     love this.  I have to learn this."  So we are employing
12     people outside the periphery of CBC, so that those of
13     us who hear are employing other people.  I don't know
14     if that's ever considered, but our voice does go out.
15  793                  I have one comment to make and I
16     would urge you, the Commission, when you report to
17     Parliament, to reaffirm the mandate of the CBC and ask
18     them to please provide the necessary resources to
19     sustain the CBC on a stable, multi-year basis.  They
20     can't go from day to day, month to month, year to year. 
21     It's just ridiculous.  There is no continuity and it's
22     very sad.
23  794                  Thank you.
24  795                  MR. ANDERSON:  One last comment. 
25     Mr. Lau had made the point that the CBC is a public


 1     trust and as a consequence another comment had been
 2     made that it was a corporation like any other
 3     corporation.  The labels that the politicians or people
 4     give the CBC I think tend to get in the way of
 5     recognizing that the CBC is in obligatory response. 
 6     Politically, people have an obligatory response to a
 7     national public radio system or media system, and I
 8     think that has to be reinforced.
 9  796                  Thank you very much.
10  797                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
11     Mr. and Mrs. Anderson.
12  798                  Mr. Secretary.
13  799                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
14                                                        1653
15  800                  Olive Lukey, please.
17  801                  MS LUKEY:  Madam Chair,
18     Commissioners, ladies and gentlemen.
19  802                  Olive Lukey speaking for herself, and
20     many people before me have spoken much more delicately
21     about what I feel.  I have one thing to say and that's
22     all.
23  803                  We talk about telling Canadians who
24     we are.  Remember the people who travel through our
25     country on the roads listening to CBC.  They also know


 1     who we are, and I'm proud of what we are saying.
 2  804                  Thank you.
 3  805                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 4     Ms Lukey.
 5  806                  Mr. Secretary.
 6  807                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 7                                                        1655
 8  808                  John O'Donaghue, please.
10  809                  MR. O'DONAGHUE:  Pardon?
11  810                  MR. LAHAY:  Can you turn your
12     microphone on, please.  Speak into your microphone.
13  811                  Thank you.
14  812                  MR. O'DONAGHUE:  Should I shut it
15     off?
16  813                  MR. LAHAY:  No, because we have no
17     way of transcribing it if you do that.
18  814                  MR. O'DONAGHUE:  Okay.
19  815                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you.
20  816                  MR. O'DONAGHUE:  (Foreign
21     language/Langue étrangère).  That's welcome to
22     Saskatchewan.
23  817                  Next Wednesday half the world will be
24     celebrating St. Patrick's Day.  It is my fervent wish
25     that the CBC takes no part in those celebrations.  I


 1     ask that because of the unhappy experience we had last
 2     year when the leading male star of the Morning Show
 3     came out with three hours of infantile nonsense,
 4     offensive nonsense.  It's a unique occasion.
 5  818                  It is also a unique location.  I'm
 6     not referring to Saskatchewan itself but to the
 7     electronic ether overhead.  It's really hilarious when
 8     you think of the following.
 9  819                  The CBC can pour forth all sorts of
10     vulgarities and four-letter words, and as recently as
11     last Sunday, but an unfortunate, maybe foul-mouthed but
12     good natured, truck driver was charged recently and
13     faced imprisonment and a fine of up to $500 for using
14     the "f" word in the hope of warning his colleagues
15     about certain very dangerous stretches of the highway
16     down near Broadview.  Anyway, that's just vulgarity.
17  820                  But what I would like to talk about
18     is blasphemy.  I have heard the words "community" and
19     "service" and "satisfaction", satisfying people.  But
20     here is an extract from a broadcast on December
21     the 23rd, 1995, two days before the Christian feast of
22     Christmas.  This allegedly comic blasphemous skit on
23     the nativity referred to our revered mother of God
24     as -- I won't repeat it.  It starts with a "v" --
25     "v" challenged.  Kindness might prompt me to suggest


 1     that the people in CBC responsible for that were all
 2     intellectually challenged.
 3  821                  Anyway, I immediately lodged a
 4     protest with CBC and asked for the name of the
 5     offending comic.  At the same time, I wrote to CRTC,
 6     informing them and asking for their help.  Three years
 7     of voluminous contribution of correspondence produced
 8     nothing, nothing as to the identity of this hilarious
 9     comic.
10  822                  Fortunately -- well, sadly, it was a
11     little sad -- recently I got an anonymous call from an
12     employee of CRTC and this employee expressed great
13     sympathy with me and sympathized with the way my
14     request had been handled.  After three years of
15     refusal, the CRTC telling me "We haven't got the
16     information", and the CBC saying "It's not your
17     business.  We have lost the file", et cetera, et
18     cetera, this employee said, "Well, if you are still
19     interested in knowing the name of the guy, his name is
20     Broadbose(ph), David Broadbose."
21  823                  Now, it is ridiculous that a member
22     of the public who wishes to object to a particular
23     program should be denied that information for as long
24     as three years -- well, two.
25  824                  On January the 8th, 1997, CBC radio's


 1     Morning Edition in Regina broadcast another comic skit
 2     on the sacraments of reconciliation and holy communion,
 3     sacraments dear to the heart of many, many, many
 4     Christians, many Christians.  Even crude schoolboys,
 5     which you come across occasionally, wouldn't, in days
 6     gone by, have dreamt of any such thing.
 7  825                  Here is the quote:
 8                            "Get in line in that
 9                            processional.  Step into that
10                            small confessional.  Dare the
11                            guy who's got religion to tell
12                            you if your sin's original.  If
13                            it's not, try playing it safer. 
14                            Drink the wine and chew the
15                            wafer.  Two, four, six, eight,
16                            time to trans-substantiate." 
17                            (As read)
18  826                  What ignoramus came along with that
19     broadcast?  What ignoramus or ignorama allowed this to
20     come out over the air when trans-substantiation is the
21     very essence of some religions?
22  827                  I don't know how many -- what
23     population of Canada can be regarded as Christians.  We
24     cannot get the information from Statistics Canada. 
25     Apparently, they are too busy counting up the number of


 1     micrograms of microtrash the Regina householders and
 2     other householders in 27 other cities throw out every
 3     year or every week or every day.  But it is a big
 4     majority.  CBC has offended a lot of people.  A
 5     majority of Canadians have been offended by some of
 6     these broadcasts.
 7  828                  In conclusion -- beautiful words --
 8     in conclusion, a particularly annoying -- I'm speaking
 9     personally -- a particularly annoying factor in all
10     this is that Christians and Christians alone appear to
11     be the subject of all this ridicule.  You won't hear
12     about the deities or the divinities of any other
13     religion, at least I have not heard it.  What is the
14     explanation?  Is it that the people in CBC who are
15     responsible for these broadcasts are nervous of some
16     sort of personal, physical retribution?
17  829                  If I may put it this way:  I think
18     so.  I believe that they would be scared shitless to
19     come out with such criticism about any other religion. 
20     I apologize for the crude expression I used there, but
21     obviously I have been listening to the CBC too much.
22  830                  Thank you very much.
23  831                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
24     Mr. O'Donaghue.
25  832                  Mr. Secretary.


 1  833                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 2                                                        1705
 3  834                  Tasha Hubbard, please.
 4     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
 5  835                  MR. LAHAY:  I'm sorry, would you turn
 6     on your microphone please, Ms Hubbard.
 7  836                  MS HUBBARD:  I'm sorry.
 8  837                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you.
10  838                  MS HUBBARD:  I'm speaking on behalf
11     of Doug Cuthand(ph) and myself from Blue Hill
12     Productions.  Basically a lot of this is something that
13     Doug and I have come up with, and then I have a little
14     bit of my own to add.
15  839                  We at Blue Hill Productions would
16     like to express our support for public broadcasting and
17     the important role the CBC has played in Canada over
18     the years.
19  840                  As Canadians, we have become more
20     informed and better educated because we have had the
21     benefit of a national broadcaster with a public
22     mandate.
23  841                  This month we are witnessing the
24     birth of another public broadcaster, the Aboriginal
25     Peoples Television Network or APTN.  This new network


 1     will be carried on basic cable and will be a new voice
 2     for aboriginal people.
 3  842                  While we look forward to our own
 4     channel, we know that CBC will remain the choice of
 5     many viewers and continue to hold its audience share. 
 6     We therefore caution the CBC that they have an
 7     important mandate to reflect the regions and people of
 8     this country.  Just because we now have the APTN, this
 9     fact does not diminish the importance of CBC.  In fact,
10     CBC must increase its programming to aboriginal people.
11  843                  In Saskatchewan we are 15 per cent of
12     the current population and growing quickly.  We are a
13     young population with over half of our people under the
14     age of 18.  This fact indicates that Saskatchewan is
15     moving into a period of rapid change, and with the
16     possibility of increased racial tension now, more than
17     any time in our history, we need a strong public
18     broadcaster to fairly present the issues and educate
19     the public.
20  844                  Currently, there is only one regional
21     television news magazine on aboriginal issues that is
22     produced in Saskatchewan.  This is Indigenous Circle
23     produced by the CTV network.  This program has been
24     around for five years and is currently seen by about
25     50,000 viewers weekly.  This may not seem like much to


 1     regions such as Ontario, but in a small market like
 2     Saskatchewan it is significant.  We recommend that the
 3     CBC proceed to establish a regional program that meets
 4     the needs of Saskatchewan people.
 5  845                  This past year the CBC has sat on a
 6     proposal to produce a national aboriginal news magazine
 7     called All My Relations.  A group of aboriginal
 8     producers in Vancouver came up with the idea and some
 9     pilot episodes were produced a year ago.  Today -- now,
10     this is as of a few days ago -- today the producers are
11     still waiting for approval to proceed with the
12     excellent series and to date no answer has been
13     received, although I'm hearing rumours that that might
14     have changed.
15  846                  The aboriginal staff at CBC here in
16     Saskatchewan have suffered the worst at the hands of
17     the budget cuts.  Currently, there are three aboriginal
18     staff members at the CBC in Saskatchewan.  With a
19     regional staff of about 200, we should have at least
20     30 aboriginal staff members if we are to achieve
21     parity.  We realize that budget cutbacks have made this
22     difficult, but we do have many young people graduating
23     from journalism school, audiovisual programs and other
24     related courses and at a time when we need to play a
25     greater role we have been left on the sidelines.


 1  847                  Blue Hill Productions was very
 2     fortunate this summer to be one of the producers of the
 3     CBC miniseries Big Bear, and this ground-breaking
 4     series was crewed by members of Canada's three founding
 5     entities:  First Nation, Francophone, Anglophone.  The
 6     result, in the words of one CBC employee, was magic on
 7     the prairie, and Big Bear stands as an example of what
 8     can be achieved when people work together and respect
 9     each other and their craft.
10  848                  We are witnessing the rapid growth of
11     aboriginal cultural industries.  Big Bear was directed,
12     produced, crewed and cast with a high percentage of
13     aboriginal people.  This goes to show we do have talent
14     and we do have the stories to tell.
15  849                  This is where I'm breaking off a
16     little bit.  As an expiring young documentary
17     filmmaker, I do have the CBC to thank.  I did begin my
18     career with Big Bear and it was quite rewarding to see
19     the results of many, many, many hours of hard work on
20     the screen.  But it was also very gratifying to see it
21     on CBC, which is basically the network I grew up with
22     as a young farm kid growing up in southern
23     Saskatchewan.  But Big Bear also afforded me the
24     opportunity to hear about my history.  I was adopted
25     out at the age of three months and grew up in a


 1     non-native community.  Big Bear marked my journey back
 2     and my exploration into my ancestries and my history
 3     and my family.
 4  850                  My birth father is from Thunderchild
 5     First Nation, and actually at my age was working for
 6     the CBC in radio as co-host of Our Native Land with
 7     Bernaldo Weiler(ph).  He was I think at the time the
 8     only broadcaster actually speaking Cree and that was
 9     back in the seventies, which was a decade that a lot of
10     efforts were put into the rejuvenation of the Cree
11     language.  I'm happy to say, although I don't speak it,
12     there is a new generation that's coming along that do.
13  851                  I live in Saskatoon and I'm actually
14     in Regina this week to work for the National Aboriginal
15     Achievement Awards, which is happening tomorrow night,
16     and actually they are going to be wondering where I am. 
17     I said I would only be gone an hour and I have been
18     gone for two and a half, but that's okay.
19  852                  This is the sixth annual awards
20     happening and the past five shows have been broadcast
21     on CBC.  I want to I guess emphasize the impact that
22     these awards have on our community.  There was actually
23     an article in the Globe and Mail today, the headline
24     was "Where Have All the Native Pop Stars Gone?" and the
25     reporter criticized the awards because the recipients


 1     did not have recognition nationally, which in my
 2     opinion completely misses the point of the awards in
 3     that this is an opportunity to bring attention to some
 4     very special people out there, to both the aboriginal
 5     community and non-aboriginal community.  This I guess
 6     only happens when things like the awards are actually
 7     broadcast on CBC.
 8  853                  Often it seems as though positive
 9     images in the media are few and far between of
10     aboriginal people, and broadcasts that showcase this,
11     such as the awards, have an amazing impact.  I know
12     this firsthand by watching the kids that are involved
13     with the awards and what it means to them to be
14     involved with something like that.  I have 13 brothers
15     and sisters and I know they are going to be at home
16     watching those awards when they are hopefully broadcast
17     in April.
18  854                  That's my part.  I will go back to
19     our joint statement.
20  855                  We do find it disturbing that there
21     is no new aboriginal drama being produced for CBC
22     television.  North of 60 and The Reds provided a look
23     at First Nations' people and their communities.  Now
24     they are off the air and basically it seems as though a
25     part of our national character is missing.


 1  856                  As First Nations, we need to
 2     communicate with all the people that are living in
 3     Saskatchewan and Canada.  Racism and intolerance thrive
 4     in a climate of misunderstanding and fear of the
 5     unknown.  The CBC has an important role as a national
 6     public broadcaster to work to help create a climate of
 7     understanding between people.
 8  857                  Saskatchewan is unique in Canada and
 9     we have a long history of public endeavour.  We have a
10     history of overcoming adversity as well.  We also have
11     the largest percentage of aboriginal people in the
12     country.  As a province, it's necessary that we work
13     together to meet the needs of a changing society, and
14     we do want the CBC with us while we do that.
15  858                  Thank you very much.
16     --- Applause / Applaudissements
17  859                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
18     Ms Hubbard.
19  860                  Could you just turn off the
20     microphone.
21  861                  MS HUBBARD:  Yes.
22  862                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Secretary.
23  863                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
24                                                        1715
25  864                  Don Archbold, please.


 2  865                  MR. ARCHBOLD:  Good afternoon.  A
 3     late afternoon.  Not much of a crowd here now.
 4  866                  I'll just introduce myself.  I'm the
 5     General Manager of Sask Film, which is the provincial
 6     funding agency that's charged with the responsibility
 7     of investing in projects and developing projects, and
 8     CBC is one of the entities that we deal with.
 9  867                  I have already dropped off a prepared
10     statement and I'm just going to speak to that and try
11     and keep my comments as brief as I can.
12  868                  I have outlined in the statement a
13     few concerns that we do have about the CBC.
14  869                  I'm in somewhat a unique situation. 
15     Not only am I currently running a funding agency but I
16     started off in this business as a composer.  I wrote
17     music for CBC radio dramas and TV and jazz Radio-Canada
18     programs, and then I evolved into a writer/producer/
19     director and had a national TV series that ran on CBC,
20     so I have had a number of experiences with them on many
21     different levels, some fantastic and some agonizing.
22  870                  I would like to say that currently in
23     Saskatchewan the amount of indigenous production that's
24     taking place, there are only two other provinces in the
25     country that are doing more than we are and that is


 1     Quebec and Ontario.  If the Americans were to pull up
 2     ranks and head south, our industry is well positioned
 3     to continue on.  We did over $50 million worth of
 4     business last year in this province in the film and
 5     television industry and the majority of that is and was
 6     with indigenous projects.
 7  871                  We only had what would be considered
 8     two service projects out of that which was a small
 9     amount of that total, which says a great deal about the
10     producers in this particular province who are extremely
11     active.  You will be hearing from them later and I'm
12     sure they will make their own comments in regards to
13     their particular feelings about the CBC.
14  872                  We have a very active community.  We
15     have a vital community.  We have incredibly talented
16     writers.  The Governor General's Award has been won
17     twice in the last four years by Saskatchewan writers. 
18     Yet, the CBC and Saskatchewan is managed by a part-time
19     regional director who, as talented and as gifted as she
20     is, has been charged with I think an impossible task of
21     trying to run an organization, not just a facility but
22     meeting with the demands and needs of the production
23     communities of two very vital provinces, Manitoba and
24     Saskatchewan, who have both seen enormous increases in
25     their production levels in the last few years, which


 1     leads to we have an individual who shows up for two
 2     days a week.  It's very difficult for our producers to
 3     attach themselves to meetings with that individual
 4     because of all the other demands.
 5  873                  Now, that being said, that individual
 6     has the right to look at and okay certain types of
 7     documentary projects, but when it comes to larger
 8     budget dramatic series or movies of the week, there is
 9     nobody, no broadcaster, CTV, CanWest Global or CBC, who
10     has any representative in the province that can
11     actually sit down, work with me through the development
12     stages on a project and get it to the point of
13     production and make a decision to proceed with it.
14  874                  After we work through the development
15     of a project, it gets shipped off to somebody in
16     Toronto, we don't even know who it is or have been
17     given any indication of who that individual might be,
18     and our producers have an incredibly difficult time in
19     getting the licensing fees that our counterparts in
20     Toronto and Montreal, who are right at the door have
21     much easier access.
22  875                  That being said, the case used to be
23     the -- you know, there isn't the quality of production,
24     the quality of producers, the quality of people out
25     there to do things on a national broadcast standard. 


 1     That may have been true five, six years ago.
 2  876                  Two weeks ago a Saskatchewan-produced
 3     movie, which is a wonderful family movie called Summer
 4     of the Monkeys was the number one video rental in the
 5     United States.  This week it's number four.  The CBC
 6     was not involved, could have been involved, but they
 7     weren't.
 8  877                  There are other projects.  We
 9     currently have a series that we developed that is
10     running on YTV that the CBC could have been involved
11     in, but chose not to.  It's one of their top shows. 
12     It's just been sold to Discovery in the United States. 
13     It has been picked up by Disney in Europe.  These are
14     things that we have produced and created and developed
15     indigenously and without any CBC involvement.  They are
16     being accepted on a world scale and yet our producers
17     have an impossible time trying to get the ear of
18     anybody at CBC in Toronto.  It's a very frustrating
19     situation and we would certainly like to see and
20     encourage that if they are to revisit part of their
21     mandate.
22  878                  Certainly everyone has talked about
23     the necessity of strengthening a regional presence. 
24     The fact is that we would love to see that.  We would
25     love to have somebody assigned to the province who can


 1     actually make decisions, who we can go to and say, "We
 2     have this great project here.  Can you give us a
 3     licensing fee", and they will understand us and know
 4     where we are coming from and have some history of the
 5     producer with the deadlines that are set for them to
 6     deal with the CTF.
 7  879                  We have been having great luck with
 8     some of the other broadcasters, but very little luck
 9     with the CBC, even though two of the CBC's premier
10     series that will run this year, Big Bear which has
11     already run and Revenge of the Land, were shot here. 
12     The principal production companies were both from
13     Montreal.  Our producers could not attach themselves to
14     the projects to get them made without a co-producing
15     partner from Montreal.  We have the people that are
16     quite capable of doing it, but I guess there are still
17     factions that believe we can't.
18  880                  In doing this, and in making these
19     decisions, obviously we have a vital community that's
20     doing lots, there is going to be even more production
21     this year.  We want to have the CBC involved.  They are
22     involved in documentary production and are a welcome
23     partner and we want to work with them and have a great
24     relationship with them.  We just hope that they can
25     reorganize themselves in such a fashion as to address


 1     the needs of each region, not just Saskatchewan, but I
 2     know Manitoba has the same problem, Alberta has the
 3     same problem, B.C. has the same problem.
 4  881                  Basically, the only people that don't
 5     have the problems that we do are the Toronto-based
 6     producers and the Montreal-based producers.  So I'm
 7     sure as you travel across Canada you will hear a lot of
 8     the same thing.
 9  882                  Just in closing, I would like to
10     thank you for the opportunity -- to sit here after a
11     long day so far and a much longer one yet to come -- to
12     express ourselves and make our views known.
13  883                  We are certainly in support of the
14     CBC.  We want to see it continue.  They have been
15     handed, as you have heard from the varying points of
16     view from many people here, an incredible task of
17     trying to please everyone.  It's something that is
18     impossible, as we all know, but they have been trying
19     many different things and hopefully they can focus in
20     on something that will be much more effective than what
21     we currently have.  We certainly welcome them back in a
22     much stronger way to Saskatchewan.
23  884                  Thank you very much.
24  885                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
25     Mr. Archbold.


 1  886                  Mr. Secretary.
 2  887                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 3                                                        1721
 4  888                  Marge Robinson, please.
 6  889                  MS ROBINSON:  Hello.  I realized I
 7     could come here when I heard Madam Chairperson being
 8     interviewed this morning, so I quickly dressed and I
 9     came this afternoon.
10  890                  I had memories -- everybody's sort of
11     nostalgia, and of course growing up everybody remembers
12     Hockey Night in Canada, Lux Radio Theatre, and as a
13     child in World War II, I remember the grave faces of my
14     parents and grandparents as they listened to the nine
15     o'clock news.  Though we didn't understand all the
16     aspects of the war, the wins and the losses, we
17     certainly understood that this was a matter of life and
18     death.
19  891                  I'm here representing myself and my
20     family.  I'm employed in the field of social work, but
21     I'm not coming in that aspect.  I am coming here to
22     express my concerns on the dark side of the CBC and I'm
23     going to speak just from my personal experience.
24  892                  I'm concerned about the lack of
25     respect and the erosion of ethical and broadcasting


 1     standards.  I feel that many times the CBC tramples on
 2     my civil rights and tramples on my values and beliefs
 3     as a Canadian citizen.
 4  893                  I have only chosen in this short time
 5     two examples.  One is a thing that was previously
 6     mentioned by another presenter.
 7  894                  In January of 1997 on the Sheila
 8     Cole's Show by request by some caller a song was
 9     presented called the Vatican Rag.  Now, everybody
10     talked about Canadian content and Canadian music, but
11     this is an American who sings this, full of bias and
12     bigotry against Catholics.  I have included a copy of
13     that song.  But the gist of the song was that -- it was
14     mockery of everything Catholics believe:  rosaries,
15     prayer, our eucharist, our reconciliation, the sign of
16     the cross.  I couldn't believe it was the CBC.  This
17     was apparently enjoyed by the host of the show.
18  895                  I phoned in a concern to the producer
19     and it just was dismissed as being irrelevant.  I did
20     write a letter, several letters, and I have in front of
21     me a copy of one of the letters that I received from
22     one of the executives of the CBC in Regina complaining
23     about it.  One of the sentences is:
24                            "Personally, I have several
25                            friends and acquaintances who


 1                            find this piece very amusing. 
 2                            Obviously, there are differences
 3                            in opinion."  (As read)
 4  896                  It was further explained that
 5     Mark Russell in the United States frequently satires
 6     his robide(ph) satire on these and other communities. 
 7     Now, I'm not an American citizen.  I'm a Canadian
 8     citizen.  If I was an American I could protest to the
 9     sponsor and I could say "I'm not buying your product
10     any more" and it would give me some idea of power.
11  897                  I had heard many people say that the
12     CBC represents the best in Canadian society and it
13     unites the country.  When I had brought forth this idea
14     that I always had about the CBC, the answer I have in
15     this letter, it says:
16                            "The CBC does not purport to
17                            represent the best in Canadian
18                            society, nor is it our mandate
19                            to unite all Canadians.  It is
20                            our mandate, in part, to reflect
21                            the various aspects of Canadian
22                            society and in doing so
23                            contribute to a more and
24                            complete and better
25                            understanding of Canada by


 1                            Canadians."  (As read)
 2  898                  I think CBC has to not only talk the
 3     talk but to walk the walk.
 4  899                  The other example is from the
 5     television and the program that I find that myself, my
 6     friends and a lot of the community that I belong to
 7     find offensive is the showing of Father Ted.  Now, this
 8     was not a Canadian -- I mean, we are talking about
 9     Canadian content.  This is a program that was imported
10     from the British Isles and it depicts Catholic clergy,
11     Catholic church services in a very degrading and vulgar
12     way.
13  900                  What is the purpose of it?  Like,
14     what is the problem or what is the purpose of putting
15     these programs on?  I don't understand it.
16  901                  Now, the CBC ombudsman quickly ducked
17     behind that the song was from Vatican II, it was an
18     expression of somebody's response from Vatican II, and
19     also that if I found that offensive I could have turned
20     the radio off or I can turn the TV off.  You know, I
21     find that is, for somebody who is to represent the
22     listener, a very shallow answer.
23  902                  Now, there are many nice things about
24     CBC.  There are many good things.
25  903                  What recommendations do I have?  I


 1     would say that perhaps the broadcasting, the
 2     broadcasters, the CBC, could train, could educate,
 3     could be accountable for what they put on which offends
 4     Canadians, which offends a large portion of the
 5     community I represent in spirit.  Are we not entitled
 6     to receive respect or to not have our civil liberties
 7     trampled on?  All I ask is that CBC be more accountable
 8     to the way they portray my religion to the rest of
 9     Canada, and to be more accountable and to be more
10     sensitive and to have more respect for their own
11     citizens.
12  904                  I'm a taxpayer and in some ways I
13     resent supporting somebody who insults me and somebody
14     who promotes bigotry.  I'm forced to support that and I
15     have no recourse.  If I do make a complaint to CRTC, I
16     get a polite letter to say, "Yes, we have considered
17     it.  Your letter will be put on file."
18  905                  So these are my concerns.  I know
19     that any time you spread ignorance it does not benefit
20     any of us.  These are my concerns and I'm glad I had
21     the opportunity to express them.
22  906                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
23     Ms Robinson.
24     --- Applause / Applaudissements
25  907                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I believe that


 1     concludes the presenters for this afternoon.
 2  908                  I'm told that CBC of course is
 3     entitled to their rebuttal and I'm told that they don't
 4     require any time to prepare.  Is that correct?
 5     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
 6  909                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm afraid I don't
 7     know you, so if you could just give your name, please.
 8                                                        1730
 9  910                  Thank you.
11  911                  MR. GERALD:  Thank you,
12     Commissioner Cram and Commissioner Wylie.
13  912                  My name is Bill Gerald.  I'm the
14     Regional Director of Radio for CBC Saskatchewan.
15  913                  Also here with me is René Fontaine
16     who is the Director of French radio for Saskatchewan,
17     and Lionel Bonneville who is the Director of French
18     television in the province.  He is also representing
19     Jane Chalmers who is the Director of English television
20     who unfortunately cannot be here because of some
21     pressing family matters.
22  914                  In addition, our two Vice-Presidents
23     on the English side, Alex Frame for radio and Harold
24     Redekopp for television, were here today.  They have
25     now returned to Toronto for other business.


 1  915                  Our role here has been to listen
 2     because the views, the opinions of the citizens of
 3     Saskatchewan, are indeed very important to us.
 4  916                  Several presenters this afternoon
 5     have referred to Saskatchewan as being a province that
 6     defines and reflects what Canada is all about, and we
 7     certainly don't disagree with that.  We hope indeed
 8     that they will find that CBC radio and television
 9     services will continue to support that sense of unique
10     Canadian culture in the future.
11  917                  We have been taking notes through the
12     course of the afternoon and we will be following up on
13     them.  In fact, where possible, we intend to respond
14     directly to each individual who has taken the time and
15     effort to make a presentation and indeed I guess they
16     have all left the room now, but indeed --
17     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
18  918                  MR. GERALD:  Oh, yes.  Thank you.
19  919                  And our heartfelt thanks goes out to
20     all those individuals for their suggestions throughout
21     the afternoon, their constructive criticism and indeed
22     their support of public broadcasting.
23  920                  Most of all, we thank them for their
24     interest and concern for the CBC and what it means to
25     them as Canadians.  We heard a lot of people speaking


 1     from the heart.  They spoke with conviction and
 2     passion.  There was thoughtful reflection.  We
 3     certainly appreciate that.
 4  921                  Many of the issues raised here today
 5     are being addressed to the CBC's licence renewal
 6     process.  There are issues.  I will just enumerate a
 7     few including:  local and international news coverage;
 8     the level of production in the regions; clearly, the
 9     reflection of Saskatchewan, and for that matter, other
10     regions of the country; the reflection of aboriginal
11     stories particularly, an issue that is of obvious
12     importance in context here in this province;
13     programming for different age groups; and, interactive
14     programming.  We have heard quite a bit today and quite
15     a bit of enthusiasm for embracing new media, the
16     Internet.  Another theme that has been struck is the
17     whole notion of reaching out and engaging various
18     organizations and individuals in partnerships.
19  922                  Those are obviously matters of
20     importance to those people, as they are to us.  We will
21     be using the licence renewal process to confirm our
22     continuing commitment to local and foreign issues, to
23     the maintenance of regional radio programming
24     throughout the day for fair, independent and
25     investigated journalism and our commitment to Canadian


 1     talent and indeed the wealth of Saskatchewan talent on
 2     the music and dramatic side and spoken word through
 3     independent producers in Saskatchewan, artists here.
 4  923                  CBC has made significant efforts to
 5     make itself more accessible and accountable to the
 6     people of Canada in recent years through regular public
 7     accountability forums, one which was held in Regina
 8     last November.  There was a recent phone-in on the
 9     Saskatchewan Noon Edition with the President of the
10     CBC, and of course there have been the annual on-air
11     reviews.
12  924                  In January, you may recall that so
13     many Canadians called in to participate in the
14     television open-line program with CBC leaders that we
15     extended that program by a full hour in order to
16     accommodate all the callers.
17  925                  So we intend to continue and increase
18     in fact the efforts in public accountability in the
19     future because several presenters have made clear today
20     our listeners and viewers want a say in the future of
21     their CBC, including this person that is calling my
22     cell phone at the moment.
23  926                  So, just in closing, Commissioners, I
24     would just like to say again, thanks for the
25     opportunity to hear directly from Canadians and what


 1     they think about CBC English and French radio and
 2     television services.  We are determined to do
 3     everything we can to earn and deserve the support of
 4     the citizens of Saskatchewan in the future.  We are
 5     also committed to best address the concerns which have
 6     been raised here today.
 7  927                  So on behalf of my colleagues here,
 8     thank you very much for this opportunity.
 9  928                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
10     Mr. Gerald.
11  929                  MR. GERALD:  Thank you.
12  930                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will be
13     reconvening on or about 6:00 p.m. tonight.
14     --- Recess at 1736 / Suspension à 1736
15     --- Upon resuming at 1814 / Reprise à 1814
16  931                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Hello.  We will be
17     reconvening.
18  932                  Good evening, ladies and gentlemen,
19     and welcome to this public consultation on the CBC.
20  933                  Bonsoir, mesdames et messieurs. 
21     Bienvenue à cette consultation publique.
22  934                  My name is Barbara Cram and I am a
23     Commissioner on the CRTC.  I am a Regional Commissioner
24     responsible for Manitoba and Saskatchewan.
25  935                  To my left is Andrée Wylie.  She is


 1     the CRTC's Vice-Chair of Broadcasting.
 2  936                  We are here to gather your views and
 3     comments on CBC radio and television.
 4  937                  In your opinion, how should the
 5     Canadian Broadcasting Corporation fulfil its role in
 6     the coming years?
 7  938                  The CBC is a national public service,
 8     broadcasting in English as well as in French.  It plays
 9     an important role in the Canadian broadcasting system. 
10     Today, many elements are constantly being added to the
11     broadcasting system as well as technologies
12     multiplying, converging, opening up new horizons and
13     increasingly offering new services.  In this context,
14     we want to know what your needs and expectations as
15     viewers and listeners of the CBC are.
16  939                  Given that, it is important that the
17     Commission hears what you have to say.  We must not
18     lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public
19     organization that serves Canadian citizens.  In this
20     capacity, we are responsible to you.  This is why my
21     fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to come
22     and meet with you and to discuss these issues and why
23     we are holding this series of regional consultations,
24     from one end of the country to the other, in
25     11 Canadian cities from March 9th to 18th.


 1  940                  Ces consultations vous donnent
 2     l'occasion de nous faire part de votre opinion sur le
 3     rôle de Radio-Canada, le genre d'émissions qu'elle vous
 4     propose et l'orientation qu'elle devrait se donner à la
 5     veille du nouveau millénaire aussi bien à l'échelle
 6     nationale qu'aux échelles régionale et locale.  Ces
 7     consultations se font dans l'esprit d'établir avec vous
 8     un dialogue ouvert et d'être à l'écoute de vos
 9     préoccupations.  Tous vos commentaires feront partie du
10     dossier public.  Il sera lui-même ajouté à celui de
11     l'audience public qui s'ouvrira à Hull le 25 mai
12     prochain.
13  941                  At the upcoming hearing in Hull on
14     May 25, the Commission will examine the CBC's
15     application for the renewal of its licences including
16     radio, television and its specialty services, Newsworld
17     and Réseau de l'information.  You can also take part in
18     that public hearing by sending your written comments to
19     the CRTC.  If you wish to do so, please remember to
20     refer to the specific licence renewals being examined
21     when you file your comments.
22  942                  Now I would like to come back to
23     today.  Please allow me to introduce the CRTC staff who
24     will be assisting us today:  Peter McCallum, to my left
25     is our legal counsel; Rod Lahay, to my right, is from


 1     our Broadcasting Planning Services; at the door you met
 2     Gary Krushen, the Director of our Winnipeg Regional
 3     Office.  Please feel free to call on them with any
 4     questions you may have about the process today or any
 5     other matter.
 6  943                  So that you will all have the
 7     opportunity to speak, we ask that you please limit your
 8     presentation to 10 minutes.  As these consultations are
 9     a forum designed especially for you and we want to
10     listen to as many participants as possible, we will not
11     ask any questions unless we need clarification.
12  944                  At the end of the session,
13     representatives from the local CBC stations will have a
14     chance to offer their views as they are naturally very
15     interested by the issues we are discussing here today.
16  945                  Before we start, I would ask
17     Mr. Lahay, who will be the Secretary of our session, to
18     go over some of the housekeeping matters regarding the
19     conduct of this consultation.  Avant de vous céder le
20     micro, je demanderais au secrétaire de vous indiquer la
21     marche à suivre.
22  946                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you,
23     Commissioner Cram.
24  947                  Just a few items to bring to your
25     attention.  We do have translation services over here. 


 1     English on Channel 1, French on Channel 2, and they ask
 2     that you do provide a driver's licence or a major
 3     credit card which would be returned to you at the end
 4     of the evening for the listening device.
 5  948                  We will be conducting breaks
 6     throughout this evening's presentations and we will
 7     announce them at that time.
 8  949                  There is a comment sheet on the
 9     outside desk when you came into the room.  We would
10     appreciate any comments you might have on the process
11     or any questions that you might have or suggestions or
12     improvements.
13  950                  Also, for those people who have not
14     spoken before, the microphone does have a white button
15     that has to be pushed before you can talk.  We ask that
16     you do make sure you are on mike because that's the
17     only way the translation services will have to keep an
18     official record of our proceedings tonight.
19  951                  Once again I reiterate the time frame
20     for 10 minutes please.  If you could stay with that, we
21     have 25 presenters tonight, so we can carry on and have
22     a chance to listen to everybody.
23  952                  Thank you very much.
24  953                  I would like to call, in groups, the
25     first 10 presenters tonight, if you wouldn't mind


 1     coming forward here as I call your name, and we will
 2     take you in that order for 10 minutes per person. 
 3     Thank you.
 4  954                  Brenda Baker or Bruce Rice;
 5     John W. Haskey; Ron Clark; Dan Cameron; Lucy Eley;
 6     Susie Matthews; Kevin DeWalt; Robert Waldegger; and,
 7     Raymond Morin.  If you wouldn't mind coming forward,
 8     having a place, sitting down at particularly a
 9     microphone.
10                                                        1820
11  955                  We will start with either
12     Brenda Baker and/or Bruce Rice.  When you are ready.
13  956                  Thank you.
15  957                  MS BAKER:  Good evening.  As you
16     heard, my name is Brenda Baker and I'm a writer and
17     performer from Saskatoon.
18  958                  I have been a fan of CBC radio and TV
19     for about 20 years now and from 1985 to 1990 I worked
20     in Regina for CBC Radio Saskatchewan as a fill-in host
21     and a part-time arts journalist.
22  959                  I chose to leave the corp to pursue
23     my artistic interests, but I remain passionate about
24     the CBC and its critical, unique role within our
25     democracy.


 1  960                  I would like to thank the CRTC for
 2     this opportunity to share just a few of the many
 3     thoughts I have had about the CBC in the last couple of
 4     years.  I hope that if you tour Canada again you will
 5     stop in Saskatoon next time where you will find that we
 6     have, at this time anyway, totally inadequate service
 7     in both radio and television.
 8  961                  I understand that you are hoping that
 9     we will focus on the future, and I'll try to do that,
10     however, I won't go along with any kind of pretence
11     that all is well with the CBC.  I believe the
12     government made a huge mistake when they hacked away a
13     third of its allotment and with the current technicians
14     strike and an impending strike by journalists, I'm very
15     worried for the health of public broadcasting in the
16     future.
17  962                  I will be making two short
18     presentations.  The first will be as the President of
19     the Saskatchewan Writers Guild, a 30-year old
20     organization of about 700 members.  The second will be
21     as a citizen who was involved in the CBC Ours to Keep
22     petition campaign in 1997.
23  963                  Over the years, many people in the
24     membership of the Saskatchewan Writers Guild have
25     contributed to CBC programming, mostly in radio, but


 1     before the cuts began some of our members were
 2     beginning to write for television as well.
 3  964                  It must be noted that many writers do
 4     seem to have more of an affinity with the medium of
 5     radio.  We have been well served by CBC radio which has
 6     aired our poetry, short stories, plays, songs mostly to
 7     our neighbours in Saskatchewan, but sometimes, though
 8     probably not enough, across the country too.
 9  965                  Other members have been heard giving
10     thoughtful commentaries or carefully considered script
11     and clip pieces, and many more people who were not
12     members of our guild still employed their writing
13     skills to provide commentary on a wide variety of
14     issues and events.  For all this important work, the
15     CBC paid people who knew how to write a respectable
16     fee.
17  966                  But things have changed.  Today we
18     still have some opportunities to air our creative work
19     on local programs, but probably fewer overall and
20     certainly not with a lot of added production values. 
21     Commentaries about various issues of the day are almost
22     never done out of Saskatchewan and I can't tell you the
23     last time I heard a script and clip piece done locally.
24  967                  So what's replacing the thoughtful,
25     considered, professional content that writers used to


 1     be paid for?  In a word "voice mail".  If you think
 2     about it, it fulfils the CBC's need to appear diverse
 3     and accessible and the beautiful thing is that it is
 4     free.
 5  968                  Whatever did CBC radio do to help
 6     fill in the day before voice mail?  Well, for one
 7     thing, they hired more people with writing skills and
 8     interesting ideas.  The content of a show was always
 9     reviewed by a number of people, scripts were usually
10     carefully vetted, and I believe the job of the writer
11     and the opinion of the writer was highly regarded by
12     the culture that used to thrive at the CBC.  Canadian
13     writers played a huge part in building an amazing
14     public radio system that was second to none.
15  969                  Now, on CBC Radio One, too much of
16     the day is given over to whatever comes in on the voice
17     mail.  Occasionally, the talk back idea is
18     appropriately used and there are some interesting
20  970                  As an aside, I would like to mention
21     that Richardson's Roundup, which is hosted by one of
22     the most literate men in Canada, is built on voice mail
23     and repeats from other shows.  Bill is one of the
24     greatest minds and best writers on CBC today and I
25     think we are wasting his talent.


 1  971                  Despite the efforts of the voice mail
 2     editors on a number of CBC programs, often the messages
 3     are amusing chitchat or desperate, ill-informed
 4     opinions that don't really stay with the listener, not
 5     the way a good piece of writing does.
 6  972                  Picking on voice mail may seem
 7     simplistic, but I believe the disproportionate use of
 8     it, relative to the contributions of professional
 9     writers, indicates a significant and negative change at
10     the CBC.  So my message from the Saskatchewan Writers
11     Guild to the CBC regarding its future is simple:  bring
12     back more writers and bring back the staff necessary to
13     oversee the production of this increase in quality
14     content.
15  973                  In closing this part of my
16     presentation, I would like to share with you a few
17     comments from some of our guild members, and these were
18     collected via e-mail.
19  974                  This is from writer Anita Darr(ph) of
20     La Ronge in Northern Saskatchewan:
21                            "How can a corporation that
22                            professes to be the voice of
23                            Canada continue to maintain
24                            coverage by cutting back on
25                            staff?  I'm dissatisfied with


 1                            the way CBC radio has reduced
 2                            its northern programming out of
 3                            La Range.  At one time there was
 4                            a morning and a noon show
 5                            produced and broadcast here by a
 6                            staff of three.  As of a year
 7                            ago, staffing has been reduced
 8                            to one person who handles
 9                            production, research,
10                            administrative duties,
11                            reporting, broadcasting, etc.,
12                            and there is one show instead of
13                            two.  This one person has his
14                            hands full.  There is not nearly
15                            enough time to get out in the
16                            community and connect with the
17                            many other people around the
18                            north."  (As read)
19  975                  The Writers Guild has had a long
20     relationship with Saskatchewan schools and so here is a
21     note from a Saskatoon teacher and children's writer,
22     Judith Benson:
23                            "As a teacher and writer, I'm
24                            daily emersed in the lives and
25                            needs of children from many


 1                            walks of life.  I value any
 2                            opportunity for students to be
 3                            able to visualize the words they
 4                            hear.  CBC radio does this via
 5                            stories, poetry and commentary,
 6                            more so for adults than
 7                            children, but more radio
 8                            offerings for children is a
 9                            matter to discuss at another
10                            time.  My point is that children
11                            are growing up with fewer and
12                            fewer opportunities to visualize
13                            the words they hear and to
14                            verbalize this experience.  CBC
15                            radio, like no other medium,
16                            gives me the opportunity to
17                            visualize what I'm hearing, to
18                            internalize the information, and
19                            to receive inspiration as a
20                            writer by hearing the work of
21                            and interviews with other
22                            writers."  (As read)
23  976                  And from one of Saskatchewan's senior
24     writers who wished to remain anonymous, she says:
25                            "I was ticked off when CBC radio


 1                            got so cut that it was using
 2                            people like me for free.  I did
 3                            a special item for a national
 4                            program expecting to be given a
 5                            contract and never was, so I
 6                            complained to the CBC because it
 7                            had taken about a day of my
 8                            time.  They then paid me $100. 
 9                            I didn't fight for more.  My
10                            argument was that they shouldn't
11                            be getting my talent for free
12                            while they were paying everybody
13                            else."  (As read)
14  977                  Finally, Eileen Comstock(ph) is from
15     Moose Jaw, and she says:
16                            "As one of Saskatchewan CBC
17                            radio's many rural faithful, we
18                            used to be able to lock on to
19                            CBK all day.  The menu was
20                            varied, interesting and did not
21                            insult our intelligence nor
22                            insult our ears as private
23                            stations often do.  Lately, due
24                            to financial constraints, there
25                            is so much repetition of


 1                            regional items here in
 2                            Saskatchewan that dedicated
 3                            listeners are turned off.  This
 4                            deterioration not only irritates
 5                            the listener, it means a loss of
 6                            local work depriving
 7                            Saskatchewan writers and artists
 8                            of a market outlet."  (As read)
 9  978                  Eileen closes with this:
10                            "There once was a farmer who, in
11                            the interests of economy,
12                            reduced his horse's rations a
13                            little bit every day.  He
14                            boasted to his neighbour that he
15                            had just about succeeded in
16                            getting a horse who could work
17                            with no input at all but the
18                            darn thing died."  (As read)
19  979                  So with that I will close my comments
20     from the Saskatchewan Writers Guild portion of my
21     presentation.
22  980                  In 1997, from January to March, I
23     worked full time as an unpaid volunteer for a petition
24     campaign called CBC Ours to Keep.  It was a response to
25     the huge cutbacks foisted on the CBC at that time.  Our


 1     organization was grassroots, national and not organized
 2     by the Friends of Canadian Broadcasting as some people
 3     believe it was.  There was a captain in each province
 4     and I served in that capacity for Saskatchewan.  It was
 5     an all-consuming task, but an experience I would not
 6     have passed up for the world.
 7  981                  During our campaign I was accosted in
 8     restaurants, approached on the street, queried while
 9     grocery shopping by people, often strangers, who wanted
10     to tell me about their personal relationship with the
11     CBC.  Whether it was a young stay-at-home mom who saw
12     Morningside as her link to the adult world, or a
13     university student who just loved This Hour Has
14     22 Minutes, or a guy at the bus depot who wanted to be
15     able to hear the Hab's hockey games in French, day
16     after day I was connected to people in Saskatoon
17     because we all cared about the CBC.
18  982                  I received letters and phone calls
19     from all over Saskatchewan, people who couldn't believe
20     that we were having to petition the government on this
21     kind of an issue.  From farmers who appreciated the
22     dedicated staff on the Radio Noon Edition to citizens
23     in Prince Albert who were working toward getting their
24     own FM stereo service so they could hear the New York
25     Opera or to our First Nations' communities who were


 1     affirmed by North of 60, the people of Saskatchewan
 2     told me again and again that through the CBC they heard
 3     and saw themselves reflected and could travel beyond
 4     our provincial boundaries without leaving home.
 5  983                  In Saskatchewan, in a few short
 6     weeks, we collected almost 21,000 names to add to the
 7     quarter million collected nationally, and these are the
 8     21 million -- 21 million, I wish -- 21,000 names.  I
 9     have brought them from the Saskatchewan archives.  We
10     photocopied each and every petition page painstakingly
11     so we would have a record of what we had done.  There
12     are of course lots of comments there to read as well.
13  984                  We had the highest per capita count
14     coming out of Saskatchewan for this campaign, and our
15     names came from 325 Saskatchewan communities. 
16     Saskatoon was very active in this effort and I think I
17     can speak for many people of my city when I say it is
18     high time Saskatoon got its six o'clock television news
19     program back again.  I cite Calgary and Windsor as two
20     other cities which lost their stations at the same time
21     Saskatoon did, but their programs were reinstated quite
22     some time ago.
23  985                  Having said that I would like to see
24     more news on television, I would certainly like to hear
25     less on Radio One.  I really don't get it.  Why the CBC


 1     powers that be think that we need to be updated every
 2     half hour of the day is beyond me.  It interrupts all
 3     sorts of other kinds of programming that they are
 4     doing.
 5  986                  In the future I would like to see the
 6     balance of programming on Radio One improved.  Our
 7     regional morning, noon, afternoon and weekend programs
 8     have been bled to death, as you have heard from many
 9     other people I think today.  Many of us consider these
10     programs to be a unifying force in the province in the
11     same way that CBC unites people across Canada.  It's
12     insulting to have our regional shows so cut back now
13     that they consist mostly of a host talking over the
14     telephone to someone.
15  987                  We have lost just about everything
16     that used to make our radio a rich audio experience, a
17     true art form.  Our weekend shows which used to have
18     serious, interesting content about Saskatchewan are
19     just music programs now with a few repeats thrown in.
20  988                  To speak about the bigger picture for
21     a moment, for the record, I would like to say that it
22     seems to me that CBC is always going to be in jeopardy
23     so long as the Board of Directors and the President are
24     government appointees.  The future health of the CBC is
25     dependent upon finding some other way of selecting the


 1     leadership for our institution or at least for a new
 2     way of selecting some of the leaders that are at the
 3     top of the CBC.  It is such an important Canadian
 4     institution that I believe this is one of the first
 5     things that the CRTC should be trying to do, to look at
 6     for us, on behalf of us.  I don't know if that really
 7     fits in with the role of the CRTC, but it seems to me
 8     it is something you could at least explore.
 9  989                  There are a lot of other things I
10     could say, but I'm going to stop there.
11  990                  I would like to close by saying that
12     it would be nice if the CRTC came out like this more
13     often.  I understand it is the first time that this
14     kind of a tour across Canada has happened for you.  I'm
15     amazed at the kind of coverage you were able to get
16     from the CBC.  You have been on just about every news
17     show that I have watched in the last week, not you
18     personally but the fact that this is all going on.  I
19     can't help but compare it to the experience that we had
20     as just Canadian citizens trying to help the CBC.
21  991                  When we ran our campaign, it was like
22     pulling teeth to get any kind of coverage of our
23     numerous events from the CBC, and this is both
24     regionally and nationally.  They said it was in the
25     interests of objectivity.  So I'm very curious about


 1     how it is that when another government organization
 2     comes to town and is driving the agenda, rather than
 3     just Canadian citizens, the CBC seems to have no qualms
 4     about promoting itself and talking about itself in the
 5     various programs, both on TV and radio.
 6  992                  In April 1997, when the Ours to Keep
 7     captains -- there were 13 of us of course from every
 8     province and territory in Canada -- when we took the
 9     time to fly to Ontario to present our quarter million
10     petitions to the government, with the help of the Air
11     Farce and Pierre Burton I might add, the CBC National
12     TV News deemed the event absolutely unworthy of even so
13     much as a mention.  They just didn't bother.
14  993                  I was appalled and offended.  I don't
15     care what else was making the news that day.  To answer
16     the question made so famous by the late Barbara Frum,
17     yes, I'm bitter.  I think there is something really
18     screwy with a public broadcaster that won't pay a
19     little attention to those who care so deeply about it.
20  994                  Thank you very much.
21  995                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
22     Ms Baker, Mr. Rice.
23  996                  Mr. Secretary.
24  997                  MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Commissioner.
25  998                  Mr. John W. Haskey, please.


 1  999                  Mr. Haskey is not with us?  Okay.
 2                                                        1835
 3  1000                 Mr. Ron Clark.
 5  1001                 MR. CLARK:  I'm grateful for this
 6     opportunity to share my reflections in support of the
 7     renewal of the licence of the Canadian Broadcasting
 8     Corporation.
 9  1002                 While my family has easy access to a
10     wide range of channels and stations, we keep finding
11     yourselves tuning back to the CBC for information and
12     entertainment.  The reasons for this lie deep within
13     our need for familiar language and subject material
14     that affirms our identity as Canadians and which
15     emphasizes community rather than individualism.
16  1003                 In the last few years I have been
17     very disturbed about the financial cutbacks and
18     restraints experienced by production workers and
19     artists.  The result, in my perception, is greater
20     centralization of programming and production, and I
21     continue to admire the creative way that the CBC
22     Radio One in Saskatchewan has managed to continue. 
23     Sheila Cole's daily Morning Edition, the Noon Edition,
24     Colin Grewer's Afternoon Edition are daily experiences
25     and companions in my life.


 1  1004                 From the time I awaken until 6:00 at
 2     night, I feel I'm exposed to events that are happening
 3     in politics, the arts, farming and people's personal
 4     lives in our region.  Whether in the car or at home, I
 5     have the dial turned to AM 540.  I would not want to
 6     have any more cutbacks to local and regional
 7     broadcasting.  I think I share this view with the
 8     majority of Canadian CBC listeners wherever they reside
 9     in Canada.
10  1005                 As far as the CBC TV is concerned,
11     it's a shame to see cutbacks in the evening news
12     produced locally or regionally.  I would like to see
13     this reinstated and expanded -- yes, Saskatoon news
14     coverage reinstated.
15  1006                 I believe that the difference which
16     is reflected by public radio broadcasting contrasted
17     with privately owned stations, this difference needs to
18     continue.  People need an alternative to canned music,
19     hotshot DJs, steady country and western music, rock
20     music and the golden oldies, five minutes of non-stop
21     commercials, and silly, uninformative talk shows and
22     game shows.  Canadian produced television dramas,
23     musicals, variety and comedy shows have more than
24     proven their worth.  Series such as Sunday Family Hours
25     have proven that quality can be produced in this


 1     country given adequate budgets.
 2  1007                 The special role of the CBC is to
 3     resist the cultural encroachment of American values. 
 4     The depiction of crime and those who work in that
 5     field, for example, as portrayed in shows like
 6     DaVinci's Inquest, reflects Canadian reality and indeed
 7     human reality.  The prevalence of guns, privatized
 8     medicine, hero worship, hollywood domination of culture
 9     and a certain jingoism are fortunately absent in most
10     Canadian features.
11  1008                 I believe there is a role for
12     partnerships between the CBC and private production
13     companies in creating arts, drama, children's shows and
14     comedy for day time and prime time viewing.  I believe,
15     however, that the budgetary restraints have been too
16     great.  It has become too obvious that reruns are used
17     to fill too many time allocations.
18  1009                 As I have said, at our house, we keep
19     turning back to the CBC for quality programs after
20     maybe we have watched, oh, our favourite football or
21     curling game on TSN or the occasional sitcom on CTV or
22     Global.  If we are still awake, The National is our
23     preferred news coverage in addition to CBC national
24     radio telecasts such as The World at Six.
25  1010                 The role of the CBC in fostering


 1     Canadian talent, discovering Canadian talent and
 2     promoting the fine artists of this country cannot be
 3     emphasized enough.  It has been highly influential in
 4     my life.  My love for drama and music and history grew
 5     out of radio from the forties and fifties.  Saturday
 6     Afternoons at the Met, Lux and Radio theatres, CBC
 7     school broadcasts have made huge impacts in my life
 8     vocation and interests.
 9  1011                 The CBC has brought me in touch with
10     the distinctive Canadian cultures, national debates,
11     international sporting events, international affairs. 
12     They have held a mirror to me about who I am and where
13     I fit with Canadian and global society.
14  1012                 I am aware of what media coverage we
15     would be forced to be exposed to should the CBC radio
16     and TV not exist and it's truly frightening.  That this
17     great public service might be furthered curtailed by
18     uncaring or misguided federal regimes leaves me angry
19     and afraid.
20  1013                 Thanks for hearing my views.
21  1014                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
22     Mr. Clark.
23  1015                 Mr. Secretary.
24  1016                 MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
25                                                        1840


 1  1017                 Dan Cameron, please.
 3  1018                 MR. CAMERON:  My remarks sort of
 4     present a vision for CBC TV, I'm not speaking as to
 5     radio, and to prevent you from taking copious notes I
 6     can give you my presentation in writing.  I will hand
 7     it in.
 8  1019                 I have six points and I will try and
 9     make them briefly.
10  1020                 The first thing I would see for the
11     CBC is I would like to see an arm's-length relationship
12     between the government and the CBC.  As you are well
13     aware, there is talk currently of establishing a
14     vice presidency in the CBC that would in fact oversee
15     news and public affairs.
16  1021                 Now, there is no question in my mind
17     the intention of that is to control the CBC because for
18     many of us out here on the ground, the CBC, in this
19     country, is today the official opposition.  We don't
20     seem to get it in our Parliament.  You can speak to
21     things like the APEC inquiry and so on and so forth
22     that simply illustrate that for me as well as the
23     current inquiry into the Canadian olympic organization
24     and so on the CBC is taking on, things like
25     Market Place.  I don't see those things on private TV. 


 1     I don't see W5 on other -- Global or things like that.
 2  1022                 So I think it is very important that
 3     we have an arm's-length relationship between government
 4     and the CBC and that it be emphasized, that the
 5     president of the CBC be appointed by the Board,
 6     recruited and appointed by the Board of the CBC.  That
 7     is normal practice.  If in fact you are going to have a
 8     president of a corporation, that should be done.
 9  1023                 In terms of the board members
10     themselves, there have been some rather questionable
11     selections to the CBC Board, particularly during the
12     Mulroney years.  I had the misfortune of meeting one of
13     those individuals, who I won't name, and I said to
14     myself, "This is the character of the people who are
15     running national broadcasting?"  It left me with really
16     serious concerns.
17  1024                 I think the board members should be
18     appointed by government from a list prepared by an
19     agency, for example, like the Canada Council, the
20     government should select from that list its appointees,
21     and those selected should be party to approval by an
22     all party parliamentary committee.  So it is going to
23     your point that we need that.  Okay.
24  1025                 The second point I should make is
25     that we should have a greater emphasis on quality


 1     programming.  Here I cast my eyes heaven word and give
 2     thanks that Ken Finkleman has chosen to return to
 3     Canada and is doing such a wonderful job.  I would also
 4     suggest that in fact we have greater investigative
 5     reports, particularly on social and political issues. 
 6     I put to you that there is not a handful of Canadians
 7     who really understand why 49 plus per cent of Quebecers
 8     voted for sovereignty, the real reasons Canadians don't
 9     know, and you will find the public broadcaster in fact,
10     in my opinion, is simply serving as a mouthpiece for
11     the spin doctors in government.
12  1026                 So I'm suggesting here that in fact
13     these types of realities of introducing one part of the
14     country to another and its concerns to other parts of
15     the country should be a key mandate of CBC.  I'm very
16     pleased that in fact they are producing a history of
17     Canada which I think is long overdue.
18  1027                 On a third point, we have a separate
19     cable channel for CBC that would feature cultural and
20     educational broadcasting.  Currently Bravo has this
21     responsibility.  Right now it is in contravention of
22     its licensing requirements that not more than 25 per
23     cent of its broadcasting between 7:00 and 11:00 p.m. be
24     produced in the U.S.  That is a requirement in writing,
25     in law, as far as its contract.  It does not meet that. 


 1     Any place west of Winnipeg it's less than 50 per cent. 
 2     I find it just incongruous that the CRTC would insist
 3     on Canadian programming levels only where it resided. 
 4     If you are looking elsewhere, it's less than the 25 per
 5     cent.
 6  1028                 Also, with Bravo, you will find that
 7     most of its cultural broadcasting, in fact, in the
 8     evening is very commercial.  Any of its cultural stuff
 9     is buried in the off hours after midnight or during the
10     day.  I think that licence was one of the CRTC's real
11     disasters and that in fact when that licence opens for
12     renewal in the Year 2000 it should be open for public
13     bidding, and the CBC be given a fair shot this time at
14     filling that licence requirement.
15  1029                 In terms of local news, my fourth
16     point, I believe that in fact the local news should
17     combine the best features, one of the strengths of the
18     CBC, which is its national news coverage.  So the local
19     news should be in fact a combination of local and
20     national news that is more complete.  You find that in
21     fact local news in the commercial stations is really
22     local, really local, of the man-bites-dog variety.
23  1030                 I met my friends outside -- I came
24     out of the labour relations field myself -- I had some
25     chat with them outside.  I would suggest to them and to


 1     you that the CBC and its unions -- this is my fifth
 2     point -- get their act together and agree on a more
 3     collaborative union-management relationship,
 4     union-management employee relationship.  What these
 5     people are doing are squabbling over the golden eggs
 6     and they don't seem to give a damn about the goose that
 7     lays them.  Instead of fighting over the crumbs, they
 8     should be collaborating together to see if they can
 9     make better use of the crumbs that exist and get more
10     crumbs, and that is not happening.
11  1031                 There is enough examples of those
12     collaborative existences.  This is not pie in the sky. 
13     It happens.  There are local examples where union and
14     management and employees work collaboratively together. 
15     In fact, I have an example here I'm prepared to give
16     with my presentation.
17  1032                 I would also suggest, as my sixth
18     point, that all TV broadcasters be treated in the same
19     fashion as the CBC.  Currently, the local Global TV
20     station outlet here has no Canadian content from 6:30
21     to 10:30, five days a week, 365 days a year.  Zero. 
22     None.  The local CTV is not much better.
23  1033                 My daughter tonight, I asked her if
24     she could name the two American presidents on
25     Mount Rushmore and she could.  I asked her if she could


 1     name two previous Canadian Prime Ministers and she
 2     couldn't.  I asked her, "Well, how did you learn about
 3     this?"  She said, "Well, I think I saw it on TV."  So I
 4     would suggest:  When is the CRTC going to do a
 5     cross-country hearing, similar to this one, on the
 6     effects of this type of TV broadcasting on our sense of
 7     national consciousness?
 8  1034                 Thank you.
 9  1035                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
10     Mr. Cameron.
11  1036                 Mr. Secretary.
12  1037                 MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
13                                                        1848
14  1038                 Lucy Eley, please.
16  1039                 MS ELEY:  Good evening.
17  1040                 I guess this isn't a very
18     well-thought out thing.
19  1041                 Anyway, I just wanted to say -- and,
20     actually, from a sense of fear that the CBC might be
21     cut still further than it has been and that the people
22     are just sort of closing in on it to knock it off, I
23     just wanted to say that I think that the CBC radio is a
24     very valuable resource.  It has made a wide world of
25     culture available to the people of Canada, originally


 1     through local radio stations and then through CBK at
 2     Watrous when it had its own station.
 3  1042                 I can remember listening to Woodhouse
 4     and Hawkins.  There was A Baker's Dozen, a series of
 5     plays involving Lister Sinclair, and a Moose Jaw author
 6     whose name I have forgotten.  But I remember being
 7     shocked to think that we could actually have an author
 8     in Moose Jaw who could write a play that would be put
 9     on the radio.
10  1043                 It has provided a source of income
11     for writers, actors, technical people, all sorts of
12     people who make valuable contributions to our society. 
13     Right now I'm thinking of Harry Sommers(ph), who I'm
14     sure got a lot of support from the CBC in his musical
15     career and also of the support that it gives to
16     Regina's musicians in broadcasting -- or taping and
17     broadcasting our symphony concerts and other things
18     like that.
19  1044                 It has also made us aware of other
20     parts of Canada.  I think back to listening to the
21     broadcasts about the Springfield Mine disaster, now I
22     think it went on too long but it was very impressive;
23     about the Alora(ph) community in Ontario, which I'm
24     sure I would never have heard of if it hadn't been for
25     their work, their song, you know, singing being


 1     broadcast on the CBC; and those interviews on the radio
 2     with Rozy Robothen(ph) and the insights that he has
 3     given into our prison system.  All those kinds of
 4     things are very valuable for us to have contact with.
 5  1045                 The CBC radio keeps reminding me how
 6     very nice and how interesting Canadians, and especially
 7     Saskatchewanians are, I mean, even when you don't
 8     necessarily agree with their views.
 9  1046                 I haven't watched much TV since the
10     intrusion of advertising.  I just can't stand to reach
11     a vital point in something and then be watching
12     somebody chasing a role of toilet paper or something
13     like that.  I mean, it just -- so I just don't really
14     bother.
15  1047                 But I do remember -- I suppose when
16     the CBC had more public funding and so on -- I can
17     remember watching with pleasure Front Page Challenge,
18     This Hour Has Seven Days, and Man Alive.  There were
19     all sorts of good things on CBC TV at one time.  As I
20     say, I hardly ever see it any more because I can't
21     stand the advertising.
22  1048                 Also, there have been wonderful
23     programs on the French TV.  In the late seventies maybe
24     or early eighties -- I forget who was premier then, but
25     they had some wonderful plays on and then suddenly they


 1     were gone.  I think, like "Beau Dimanche", if you will
 2     pardon my French, also has some very good things which
 3     I watch quite often if I can, even though I find they
 4     speak far too quickly.
 5  1049                 I guess what I'm saying is that the
 6     CBC opens our eyes to the wide possibilities of human
 7     life and human achievement in Canada and throughout the
 8     world.  John Ruskin talked about people who knew the
 9     price of everything and the value of nothing.  The CBC
10     admittedly comes at a price but its value is
11     immeasurable and I certainly hope that it will continue
12     to receive support.  I have one major complaint about
13     the CBC or perhaps two.
14  1050                 The first one is the current attempt
15     to get with it, as I guess, by putting everything in
16     the present tense in news reports.  It's most annoying
17     to say, "I'm back on whatever", you know, instead of,
18     "I will be back."  This will eventually destroy some of
19     the subtleties of the English language.  I won't go
20     into that, but I think maybe people don't realize it,
21     you know, the difference in meaning between those kinds
22     of sentences.  It doesn't make the news any more
23     relevant or, as far as I can see, exciting and,
24     actually, I can't see why the news should have to be
25     exciting.


 1  1051                 The other thing, my other complaint
 2     is that unless I have a definite appointment I find it
 3     difficult to get out of the house if I have the radio
 4     on or prepare presentations such as this one, because
 5     there is always something interesting on the radio and
 6     I want to keep on listening and hear the end of it.
 7  1052                 Thank you very much.
 8  1053                 And how should it fulfil its role in
 9     the future?  Well, continue as it is but with more
10     funding and lots of resources.  I think it's worth
11     every cent that we pay for it.
12  1054                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms Eley.
13  1055                 Mr. Secretary.
14  1056                 MR. LAHAY:  Thank you.
15  1057                 Susie Matthews, please.
16  1058                 Susie Matthews.  Okay.
17                                                        1855
18  1059                 Kevin DeWalt.
20  1060                 MR. DeWALT:  Thank you.
21  1061                 My name is Kevin DeWalt and I'm the
22     President of the Saskatchewan Film Producers
23     Association.  On behalf of myself and my members of my
24     association, I want to thank the CRTC for the
25     opportunity to speak to you today.


 1  1062                 My presentation, which I as well have
 2     copies I will leave with you, primarily focuses on the
 3     interests of the independent film and television
 4     production community in Saskatchewan.  It goes without
 5     saying that our members feel very strongly that the CBC
 6     is an organization and a broadcast system that needs
 7     support, continued support, and we very much support,
 8     around this table, the need for renewal and continued
 9     support on an ongoing basis.
10  1063                 The Saskatchewan Film Producers
11     Association is a non-profit incorporated entity with a
12     mission to represent the interests of independent film
13     and television production companies in Saskatchewan. 
14     The organization's membership criterion is voting
15     membership in the Canadian Film and Television
16     Production Association.  The 10 production companies in
17     Saskatchewan who are members of our association are
18     responsible for 90 per cent of the independent
19     production volume in the province and over 90 per cent
20     of all employment in the independent film and video
21     sector.
22  1064                 The SFPA supports the renewal of the
23     CBC licence and acknowledges that the CBC is and should
24     remain the key broadcast partner in the production of
25     Canadian indigenous stories in both the dramatic and


 1     non-fiction genres.  At the same time, we have some
 2     thoughts and suggestions as to how the CBC might better
 3     meet the terms of its mandate in the future, some of
 4     which we believe merit consideration as possible
 5     conditions to be included in any licence renewal.
 6  1065                 Among its many important public
 7     policy roles, the CBC has provided Canadian writers,
 8     directors, performers and producers a stage on which to
 9     perform for Canadians and audiences around the world. 
10     Canadian television programming is critically acclaimed
11     and acknowledged around the world for its quality and
12     we are second only to the U.S. in export sales.  The
13     reality of today's film and television industry is that
14     many successful productions are done in Toronto,
15     Montreal and Vancouver and they are also made in the
16     Maritimes and of course the Prairies.
17  1066                 Recently, Saskatchewan has begun to
18     play a larger role.  Production activity here doubled
19     in the past year from $26 million in 1997 to over
20     $50 million in 1998.  Key contributors to that growth
21     have been the Canadian Television Fund, TeleFilm
22     Canada, the Federal Tax Credit Program, and more
23     recently our own provincial tax program.
24  1067                 It is the job of independent
25     producers, such as SFPA members, to create partnerships


 1     between private and public sources of funds, between
 2     producers, broadcasters, distributors and government
 3     agencies.  Against formidable odds, these partnerships
 4     make our industry viable in spite of the small size of
 5     our domestic market and the fact that we live next door
 6     to the dominant force in the global entertainment and
 7     communications industry.
 8  1068                 CBC has been an essential part of
 9     these partnerships in Saskatchewan for many, many
10     years, although, to be candid, its role here has faded
11     considerably in the past few years.  Unfortunately,
12     just as Saskatchewan's independent production sector
13     has really come into its own -- I'm sorry -- has faded
14     considerably and it is unfortunate that this has
15     happened as our sector has really come in its own.
16  1069                 In the early 1990s, information
17     series such as What On Earth and Utopia Cafe were
18     developed locally and went on to be exhibited
19     nationally on the network.  This helped to create a
20     base for non-fiction production which led to several
21     documentaries for the main network and Newsworld: 
22     Frankie and Walter, Lost Legacy, the Last Word From
23     Moose Jaw, the Live to Polka, The Boys Who Loved
24     Hockey, The Plays, The Thing.  I could name many more. 
25     From a standing start seven or eight years ago these


 1     are impressive achievements.
 2  1070                 What has been more elusive has been a
 3     commitment to dramatic production in this region. 
 4     Although, Saskatchewan has served as a location for a
 5     number of major CBC miniseries originated and
 6     majority-owned by Toronto and Montreal companies,
 7     examples are Love and Hate, Big Bear, and the upcoming
 8     Revenge of the Land, there has not been a concerted
 9     effort to work with Saskatchewan companies to develop
10     and produce dramatic programs from and about
11     Saskatchewan.
12  1071                 While we in no way want to diminish
13     the importance of these miniseries and movies which
14     provide important employment opportunities for
15     Saskatchewan talent and crew, and told compelling
16     Saskatchewan stories, it has to be acknowledged that
17     until Saskatchewan companies are welcomed as full
18     partners by the CBC in the creation of drama
19     programming, it will be difficult for us to build and
20     maintain any sustainable infrastructure needed to tell
21     our own Saskatchewan stories.
22  1072                 As the CEO of a production company
23     which has, in the past few years, supplied dramatic
24     movies and miniseries to Canadian regional and
25     specialty channels, such as WIC, YTV, Baton's VTV, the


 1     A-Channel, and to international broadcasters including
 2     the BBC, TV 1 of France, Show Time in the USA and SAT 1
 3     in Germany, to name a few, I admit to being somewhat
 4     frustrated at the continuing difficulty enlisting the
 5     support of national mainstream broadcasters, especially
 6     the CBC.
 7  1073                 While it would be easy to attribute
 8     this problem to budget cuts which have
 9     disproportionately affected regional decision making
10     and thus production, and indeed this is a large part of
11     the problem, it has to be noted that the CBC has made
12     efforts on occasion to nurture drama in the regions. 
13     For example, Alberta recently had a series called North
14     of 60 and British Columbia presently has a series
15     called DaVinci's Inquest.  Of course the maritimes has
16     had a healthy share of CBC production in recent years.
17  1074                 What is missing however is a
18     sustained and comprehensive vision that places the
19     regions front and centre in CBC's program development
20     and schedule planning activities.  Rather than
21     occasionally reacting to the pressures exerted by
22     regional producers by placing a Toronto-developed
23     series in a regional location, there needs to be an
24     understanding that many of the country's most
25     compelling stories occur in the regions and that it is


 1     in the CBC's best interests, from both a mandate and
 2     audience perspective, to nurture the storytellers here,
 3     the writers, the directors, the actors, the crew and
 4     the production companies.
 5  1075                 Every province in Canada now has
 6     qualified production companies with demonstrated track
 7     records in drama production.  It is time for the CBC to
 8     ensure that it is partnering with these companies from
 9     coast to coast on a consistent basis.
10  1076                 As a first step, our membership
11     proposes that serious considerations be given to
12     mechanisms which would open up the CBC drama to ideas
13     from the regional provinces.
14  1077                 The BBC in the U.K. serves as an
15     instructive example here.  I happen to be doing two
16     international co-productions with U.K. partners and the
17     BBC is a partner in one of them.  The BBC, several
18     years ago, made a number of changes in the way it does
19     business and introduced -- under the rubric of producer
20     choice whereby independent producers were put on a
21     relatively equal footing with in-house BBC producers in
22     competing for broadcast slots and resources, regional
23     expenditure targets were formulated and regional
24     offices were given the authority and autonomy to
25     develop and produce drama programming.  Now, seven,


 1     eight years later, much of the best and most successful
 2     drama indigenous programming in the U.K. on the network
 3     originates from its regional offices.
 4  1078                 Unlike the CBC, BBC did not respond
 5     to budget cuts by reducing their regional presence. 
 6     Instead they were a trigger to increase regional
 7     production.  In other words, they saw it as an
 8     investment, not a cost, and the investment is paying
 9     off.
10  1079                 Judging by the success of such
11     Saskatchewan produced drama projects as Conquest,
12     Summer of the Monkeys, the Lost Daughter, Incredible
13     Stories, Studios and Guitar Man.  I can go on and on. 
14     There is no reason to believe that making a similar
15     investment in the regions of this country would not
16     produce similar results.  We believe it is time for the
17     CBC to set regional expenditure envelopes for
18     independent production and for the CBC management to be
19     accountable that targets are met.
20  1080                 We further believe that this would be
21     an appropriate condition of a renewed CBC television
22     licence.  On the other end of the scale, smaller and
23     emerging producers share many of the challenges faced
24     by drama producers for somewhat different reasons.
25  1081                 In years past, CBC offices across the


 1     country had more ability to create and program
 2     regionally orientated information and documentary
 3     programming.  Many creative talents got their start in
 4     this way.  As independent production sectors began to
 5     emerge in the smaller provinces in the late 1980s and
 6     early 1990s, much of their initial growth came from
 7     projects undertaken for regional CBC transmission.
 8  1082                 With the funding cuts of the past few
 9     years and the decision to centralize all of the program
10     decision making for the English network in Toronto,
11     these opportunities for small regional relevant
12     projects have diminished significantly as regional
13     airtime has nearly disappeared and resources have
14     primarily dried up.  Our members feel that this is
15     regrettable as regional programming is relatively
16     inexpensive, is a great incubator for emerging talent
17     in this country and has much to offer the network in
18     helping to attain its mandate, quote:
19                            " reflect Canada and its
20                            regions to national and regional
21                            audiences while serving the
22                            special needs of the region." 
23                            (As read)
24  1083                 As set out by the Broadcasting Act.
25  1084                 As a second recommendation, we feel


 1     that provision of regional windows for regional
 2     productions should be a condition of the renewed
 3     licence.
 4  1085                 Finally, we feel that there is a need
 5     for the CBC to become smarter about how it uses its
 6     financial resources and more open to partnerships with
 7     the private sector.  There may be important reasons
 8     why, even after the budget reductions of recent years,
 9     the CBC would presently be undertaking new initiatives
10     in the areas of niche channels and new media, for
11     example, or why the corporation continues to do some
12     in-house drama and variety production.  In the absence
13     of more information, it is difficult for us to comment
14     on these.  However, I know of a few Canadian
15     independent producers who do not share a strong belief
16     in the mandate and purpose of the corporation and I
17     submit that we would be appropriate business partners
18     if the CBC has a strategic need to move in such
19     directions.
20  1086                 We have locally, in Regina, an
21     example of how an apparent disinterest in partnering
22     with the private sector has been, in our opinion, a
23     deterrent of the corporation.  The CBC Broadcast Centre
24     in Regina, one of the more impressive and modern
25     facilities owned by the corporation, is presently


 1     highly under utilized in the wake of successful staff
 2     reductions.  A number of independently produced
 3     television series, What On Earth, Utopia Cafe,
 4     Maxamatics, as examples, have made use of these
 5     facilities over the last couple of years through
 6     facility deals.  That's where corporations contribute
 7     facilities instead of cash, which I must say have been
 8     with excellent results.  Representatives from the
 9     independent sector have approached the CBC on more than
10     one occasion in the past few years with a proposal to
11     put these facilities to use as the basis of a
12     production incubator facilitating support to 10 to 15
13     up and coming Saskatchewan film, television and new
14     media companies.
15  1087                 Another suggestion that was taken
16     forward was the idea that the provincial government and
17     the private sector buy the CBC Regina plant and at
18     least back the portion that the CBC needed with the
19     balance of space used to create a centre of excellence
20     for the provincial film, television and new media
21     industries.  We believe that this concept was at least
22     worthy of exploration and could have been to the
23     financial benefit of the corporation.
24  1088                 To date, there has been little in the
25     way of any constructive response, and those of us who


 1     have championed these ideas have reluctantly concluded
 2     that our efforts were in vain.  Today it is estimated
 3     that over 50 per cent of the Regina CBC plant is not
 4     utilized.
 5  1089                 In summary, I would like to reiterate
 6     three specific recommendations:  that the CBC establish
 7     and be measured against regional expenditure envelopes
 8     for independent production; two, that the CBC
 9     reinstitute access to airtime on a regional basis
10     beyond the evening news; and, three, that the CBC
11     receive encouragement to become more open to regional
12     independent production companies who can be, if given a
13     chance, critical partners in the corporation's future
14     growth and success.
15  1090                 The Broadcasting Act refers to the
16     CBC's obligation to:
17                            "...contribute to a shared
18                            national consciousness and
19                            identity."  (As read)
20  1091                 Independent producers understand and
21     relate to that objective.  That's why many of us got
22     into the business in the first place.
23  1092                 In partnership with a renewed and
24     revitalized CBC, I am confident that we will achieve
25     our common goal of a strong Canadian CBC and


 1     broadcasting system.
 2  1093                 On behalf of the SFPA and my members,
 3     I would like to thank you for the opportunity to speak
 4     to the Committee this evening.
 5  1094                 Thanks.
 6  1095                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 7     Mr. DeWalt.
 8  1096                 Mr. Secretary.
 9  1097                 MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
10                                                        1912
11  1098                 Robert Waldegger, please.
13  1099                 MR. WALDEGGER:  My name is
14     Robert Waldegger.  I'm here on behalf of the
15     Saskatchewan Pro-Life Association.  We have a database
16     of 30,000 families in the province.
17  1100                 I'm here to speak about a bias we
18     believe is in the CBC.  My comments are going to be
19     based on a critique of a particular program.
20  1101                 As an example of CBC's bias towards
21     pro-lifers, I make the following comments based on the
22     January 20th CBC program National Magazine's "Thou
23     Shalt Not Kill".
24  1102                 Thou Shalt Not Kill was a deliberate
25     but unsuccessful attempt to establish solid links


 1     between the peaceful Canadian pro-life movement and a
 2     tiny fringe of outspoken U.S. anti-abortion activists.
 3  1103                 As a taxpayer-funded organization,
 4     the CBC is obliged to represent the views of all
 5     mainstream Canadians.  In this case, it gave excessive
 6     coverage to American radicals and Canadian abortion
 7     providers who hold that the Canadian movement is
 8     responsible for violence suffered by abortion providers
 9     in this country.
10  1104                 Pro-lifers are responding that the
11     abuse of standards of fairness and honesty in the CBC
12     report is inexcusable and are demanding an apology and
13     an opportunity for equal response.
14  1105                 The following observations made by
15     pro-life leaders across the country demonstrates the
16     bias of the documentary and its misleading tactics,
17     such as attempting to use guilt-by-association to
18     vilify the Canadian pro-life movement.
19  1106                 CBC was unable to find a single
20     example of proven violence or support of violence by
21     the Canadian pro-life movement.  It therefore resorted
22     to showing clips of U.S. anti-abortion groups who
23     refuse to condemn the killing of abortionists.
24  1107                 The CBC then attempted, through
25     carefully crafted and selected clips, to create


 1     apparent links between the mainstream movement and the
 2     few violent fringe U.S. individuals.
 3  1108                 The CBC allowed only two minutes of
 4     commentary from Canadian pro-lifers on their entire
 5     24-minute program.  Campaign Life Coalition leader
 6     Jim Hughes was the only Canadian pro-life activist
 7     interviewed, and only two minutes of a two-hour
 8     interview were used for the program.  Mr. Hughes was
 9     the only mainstream pro-lifer interviewed for the
10     entire program and mainstream, non-violent, U.S.
11     pro-lifers were completely left out or not mentioned.
12  1109                 The CBC chose not to air Mr. Hughes'
13     outright condemnation of all abortion violence,
14     including his strong condemnation of the violence
15     directed toward abortionists or others in the abortion
16     industry.
17  1110                 The rest of the mainstream pro-life
18     movement also condemns abortion violence against
19     preborn children, the violence against children's
20     mothers and the violence directed against pro-lifers by
21     abortion advocates.
22  1111                 If CBC were really concerned about
23     stopping so-called pro-life violence in Canada, then
24     they would have aired compelling arguments by
25     Jim Hughes and others about the necessity for


 1     non-violent pro-life activism, saying that those who
 2     advocate violence, including the killing of
 3     abortionists are not pro-lifers.
 4  1112                 One clip on the program saw angry
 5     pro-abortion advocates yelling and screaming at
 6     pro-lifers.  However, this clip followed the standard
 7     formula of making it seem that it was the pro-lifers
 8     exhibiting the obnoxious behaviour.
 9  1113                 Finally, if CBC wanted to do a story
10     on the pro-life radicals in Canada, they could have
11     interviewed the Canadian pro-lifer who has served the
12     most time in jail for peacefully praying in front of
13     abortion mills.  The obvious reason CBC did not feature
14     grandmother Linda Gibbons is because here is a story of
15     faith, peace and non-violence.  We use this example as
16     one example of the many that have happened on the CBC.
17  1114                 In respect to the future of the CBC,
18     we respectfully submit that the CBC should be sold to
19     private interests.
20  1115                 Thank you very much.
21  1116                 I have a copy of the text for you,
22     sir.
23  1117                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
24     Mr. Waldegger.
25  1118                 I just wanted to clarify.  I thought


 1     I heard you say at the first that CBC had a bias
 2     towards pro-lifers.
 3  1119                 MR. WALDEGGER:  No.  It's against
 4     pro-lifers.
 5  1120                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Against pro-lifers?
 6  1121                 MR. WALDEGGER:  Yes.
 7  1122                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  What I had heard
 8     was towards.  I just wanted to verify that.
 9  1123                 Has your association sued CBC for
10     this, for defamation at all?
11  1124                 MR. WALDEGGER:  No.
12  1125                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
13                                                        1915
14  1126                 MR. LAHAY:  Our final presenter for
15     the first group of presenters, Raymond Morin et Denis
16     DesGagné, s'il vous plaît.
18  1127                 M. MORIN:  Bonsoir.  La présentation
19     va être en français.  Alors, peut-être s'il y a des
20     gens dans la salle qui veulent avoir la traduction,
21     est-ce qu'ils veulent se servir des récepteurs
22     d'interprétation, Monsieur le Secrétaire?
23  1128                 LA PRÉSIDENTE:  Nous avons la
24     traduction.  Mr. Morin will be speaking in French.  If
25     anybody wishes to obtain a traducteur you simply have


 1     to provide them with your driver's licence.
 2     --- Pause / Pause
 3  1129                 M. MORIN:  Oui, bonsoir.  Nous
 4     désirons remercier les membres du CRTC pour
 5     l'opportunité que vous nous avez donné ce soir pour
 6     exprimer notre point de vue.
 7  1130                 Pour élaborer ce mémoire, nous avons
 8     demandé l'avis des douze communautés fransaskoises sur
 9     la Société Radio-Canada afin de préparer un mémoire ce
10     soir.  À noter cependant que cela n'empêche pas
11     nullement les communautés de vous faire des
12     présentations elles-mêmes.  Il va y avoir d'autres
13     présentations de la communauté ce soir aussi.
14  1131                 Alors, Radio-Canada:  Un service
15     essentiel!  Depuis sa création en 1936, la Société
16     Radio-Canada a permis aux Canadiens et aux Canadiennes
17     d'un océan à l'autre de mieux se comprendre.  Par sa
18     programmation, tant à la télévision qu'à la radio
19     d'ailleurs, la Société Radio-Canada a joué un rôle dans
20     le développement du Canada, notamment en rapprochant
21     par le bais des ondes les différentes régions du pays. 
22     Nul besoin en effet d'insister plus longuement sur les
23     bienfaits d'un réseau de diffusion national dans un
24     pays aussi vaste que le Canada.
25  1132                 Pour les communautés francophones de


 1     la Saskatchewan, la Société Radio-Canada a joué un rôle
 2     de développement.  Elle a contribué à unir les
 3     francophones du nord et du sud.  Nous avons une grande
 4     province ici en Saskatchewan et nos communautés sont
 5     éparpillées à travers la province.  Elle a contribué à
 6     développer un sentiment d'appartenance et de fierté
 7     collective parmi les Fransaskois.  Nul doute que sa
 8     disparition causerait un tort immense aux Fransaskois. 
 9     Les Fransaskois ce sont des francophones d'expression
10     française en Saskatchewan.
11  1133                 À l'aube d'un nouveau millénaire, il
12     importe en effet d'assurer durablement une présence
13     fransaskoise sur les ondes de la radio et de la
14     télévision de Radio-Canada.  On ne sait que trop bien
15     l'importance que revêt la radio et la télévision dans
16     la vie quotidienne des gens, en particulier chez les
17     jeunes, d'où l'importance d'avoir une chaîne
18     francophone solide et qui reflète les besoins de la
19     communauté.
20  1134                 En ce sens, on ne peut qu'appuyer
21     également l'arrivée du Réseau TVA à l'échelle nationale
22     puisque cela représente pour nous une chaîne française
23     supplémentaire dans un environnement médiatique déjà
24     fortement anglophone.  Malgré que la venue de TVA sera
25     essentiellement une fenêtre sur Montréal, les


 1     Fransaskois ne pourront tout de même qu'en profiter car
 2     le Réseau TVA s'est engagé devant le CRTC à diffuser
 3     des émissions traitant de la réalité des francophones
 4     hors Québec.
 5  1135                 Il serait par ailleurs souhaitable
 6     que la radio et la télévision de la Société
 7     Radio-Canada parlent davantage des francophones aux
 8     autres francophones du pays et encore plus des
 9     francophones aux anglophones.  Beaucoup de Québécois,
10     par exemple, ignorent jusqu'à l'existence-même des
11     francophones hors Québec.  Une telle situation n'a rien
12     pour améliorer les rapports entre les francophones d'un
13     même pays.  Il en va de même en ce qui concerne les
14     anglophones hors Québec, généralement peu au courant de
15     la situation des francophones.
16  1136                 Axer la programmation sur la
17     Saskatchewan!  La programmation radio et télévision de
18     la Société Radio-Canada doit être principalement
19     canadienne, refléter la globalité canadienne et rendre
20     compte de la diversité régionale du pays, tout en
21     contribuant activement à l'expression de la culture
22     canadienne.  Dans les faits cependant, la réalité des
23     francophones en Saskatchewan est bien peu reflétée dans
24     les émissions diffusées sur les ondes de Radio-Canada.
25  1137                 Comme nous le verrons d'ailleurs dans


 1     les lignes qui suivent, des progrès importants doivent
 2     être faits, surtout en ce qui concerne la dimension
 3     culturelle, et ce, tant à la radio qu'à la télévision
 4     française car à l'heure actuelle, les Fransaskois
 5     obtiennent une couverture à Radio-Canada comparable à
 6     celle que reçoivent les Québécois sur les ondes de TV5,
 7     c'est-à-dire très limitée.
 8  1138                 À la télévision française.  La
 9     programmation diffusée sur les ondes de la télévision
10     française en Saskatchewan est presqu'entièrement
11     québécoise.  Or, bien que les émissions provenant du
12     Québec soient intéressantes à plus d'un titre, force
13     est de constater qu'elles retiennent peu l'intérêt des
14     Fransaskois, davantage concernés par ce qui se passe en
15     Saskatchewan.
16  1139                 Certes, il y a déjà quelques
17     émissions consacrées aux Fransaskois et aux
18     francophones de l'ouest, comme, pour exemple, "Clan
19     destin" et "Sur la même longueur d'ondes".  Mais cela
20     demeure insuffisant.  À titre d'exemple, les
21     Fransaskois n'ont accès qu'à une demi-heure de
22     nouvelles par jour via "Saskatchewan Ce Soir".
23  1140                 Il serait intéressant que la durée de
24     "Saskatchewan Ce Soir" soit augmentée à une heure
25     complète, de façon à inclure une section magazine. 


 1     Nous aimerions aussi que davantage de nouvelles de la
 2     Saskatchewan soient diffusées à l'échelle national sur
 3     la première chaîne et non seulement sur le Réseau de
 4     l'information (RDI), comme c'est le cas présentement.
 5  1141                 De façon générale, il est impératif
 6     d'accroître la production d'émissions réalisées ici en
 7     Saskatchewan.  À cet égard, nous proposons la
 8     réalisation d'une série diffusée sur le réseau national
 9     et qui relaterait la réalité quotidienne des
10     francophones vivant en situation minoritaire.  Une
11     telle série permettrait de renforcer le sentiment
12     d'appartenance des Fransaskois en plus de montrer aux
13     francophones des autres provinces, surtout du Québec,
14     comment vivent les francophones de l'ouest canadien.
15  1142                 Conscient toutefois que la production
16     d'émissions ou de séries peut représenter des coûts
17     importants pour la Société Radio-Canada, des
18     partenariats avec le secteur privé ou avec des
19     producteurs locaux pourraient être envisagés pour
20     réduire les coûts.  Des fonds sont en outre disponibles
21     à Téléfilm Canada via le Fonds canadien de télévision
22     pour permettre à des producteurs francophones de la
23     Saskatchewan de mettre sur pied des projets de séries. 
24     De tels projets auraient également pour effet
25     d'encourager les artistes locaux, souvent contraints de


 1     s'expatrier au Québec pour être en mesure de pratiquer
 2     leurs métiers en français.
 3  1143                 Une autre solution envisageable
 4     consisterait à accroître la présence des francophones
 5     de la Saskatchewan à l'intérieur des émissions
 6     existantes, comme c'est le cas actuellement dans
 7     l'émission "La Semaine verte".  En plus d'être moins
 8     onéreuse, cette façon de procéder a le grand avantage
 9     de profiter de la visibilité et de la notoriété des
10     émissions existantes.  Il faut en somme augmenter le
11     nombre d'heures de production locale, en particulier
12     dans le domaine culturel, de même que la présence des
13     Fransaskois sur les émissions du réseau national déjà
14     existantes.
15  1144                 Maintenant, la radio française.  La
16     programmation diffusée sur les ondes de la radio CBKF
17     Saskatchewan est fort appréciée par les Fransaskois. 
18     Les émissions comme "CBKF Bonjour", animé par François
19     Beauregard, et "Jour de plaine", animé par Francis
20     Marchildon sont parmi celles qui sont les plus
21     écoutées.  Nous apprécions en outre grandement le fait
22     d'être maintenant en mesure d'entendre la radio en
23     Saskatchewan sept jours sur sept.  Mais ces efforts
24     pour accroître le nombre d'heures de production locale
25     ne doivent pas s'arrêter là.  Nous aimerions qu'il y


 1     ait encore plus d'émissions produites en Saskatchewan
 2     dans les années à venir, à l'exemple de celle produite
 3     en direct de Zenon Park en décembre dernier pour
 4     souligner la fête de Noël.
 5  1145                 Les efforts de la radio française de
 6     Radio-Canada visant à appuyer le développement des
 7     radios communautaires sont aussi très estimés, en
 8     particulier ici en Saskatchewan où les radios
 9     communautaires en sont à leurs premiers pas.  Cela est
10     d'autant plus important d'appuyer les radios
11     communautaires que ces dernières ont un impact majeur
12     sur l'écoute des médias francophones en milieu
13     minoritaire.  Le soutien de Radio-Canada en ce domaine
14     est en quelque sorte une avenue importante qui compense
15     un peu l'insuffisance des ressources financières des
16     radios communautaires.
17  1146                 Maintenant, pour passer aux chaînes
18     spécialisées.  Le développement phénoménal des chaînes
19     spécialisées n'est pas sans affecter les chaînes
20     traditionnelles en raison notamment de la fragmentation
21     de l'auditoire.  Nul besoin en effet d'insister
22     longuement sur l'impact négatif que cela engendre au
23     niveau des revenus publicitaires des chaînes
24     traditionnelles, de sorte que pour protéger ses
25     revenus, la Société Radio-Canada n'a d'autre choix que


 1     de créer elle-même ses propres chaînes spécialisées.
 2  1147                 Mais l'arrivée des chaînes
 3     spécialisées n'a pas que des effets négatifs.  Elles
 4     offrent en effet beaucoup plus de flexibilité dans la
 5     programmation que les chaînes traditionnelles en plus
 6     d'élargir considérablement l'éventail d'émissions.
 7  1148                 Pour les Fransaskois, le RDI est
 8     particulièrement apprécié puisqu'il agit un peu comme
 9     une fenêtre francophone sur l'ensemble du Canada.  Le
10     RDI offre en effet aux Canadiens de l'est du pays
11     beaucoup plus de nouvelles sur ce qui se passe dans
12     l'ouest que la chaîne traditionnelle de Radio-Canada et
13     vice-versa.  En ce sens, il s'agit-là d'un service tout
14     aussi essentiel que la radio et la télévision française
15     de Radio-Canada.  Mais voilà, le RDI n'est pas
16     accessible partout en Saskatchewan.
17  1149                 Nous aimerions donc que le signal du
18     RDI soit étendu à toutes les communautés francophones
19     de la Saskatchewan dans un avenir rapproché et qu'il
20     soit même à diffusion obligatoire car, comme nous
21     l'avons souligné précédemment, une chaîne francophone
22     diffusée de façon obligatoire représente plus de choix
23     pour les francophones.
24  1150                 Maintenant pour passer à la nécessité
25     d'un financement stable pour la Société Radio-Canada. 


 1     Les compressions budgétaires des dernières années ont
 2     fait mal à Radio-Canada.  En effet, les crédits
 3     parlementaires d'exploitation de la Société
 4     Radio-Canada ont diminué de 918,2 millions de dollars
 5     en 1995-1996 à 759,7 millions de dollars en 1997-1998,
 6     passant ainsi sous la barre de 800 millions de dollars. 
 7     Nous avons des tables à l'appui et la source de ces
 8     chiffres-là c'est le Rapport annuel de Radio-Canada.
 9  1151                 Certes, l'introduction de la
10     publicité dans un certain nombre d'émissions, tels que
11     "Le Téléjournal" par exemple, a permis de réduire
12     quelque peu l'effet des compressions.  Mais les revenus
13     de publicité ne peuvent seuls réussir à combler les
14     besoins financiers de la Société Radio-Canada
15     puisqu'ils sont beaucoup moins stables que les crédits
16     parlementaires à cause de la forte concurrence.
17  1152                 Il ne faut pas oublier en outre que
18     la Société Radio-Canada est un service public
19     appartenant à tous les Canadiens et non une société
20     commerciale comme le sont la très grande majorité des
21     diffuseurs.  Le seul diffuseur public pan-canadien doit
22     être en mesure de remplir la mission pour laquelle il a
23     été mis sur pied, soit celle d'aider les Canadiens et
24     les Canadiennes à mieux comprendre et à apprécier le
25     Canada.


 1  1153                 Voilà pourquoi nous appuyons les
 2     revendications de la Société Radio-Canada visant à
 3     obtenir un financement stable et pluriannuel car, pour
 4     répondre adéquatement aux besoins des collectivités
 5     canadiennes, il importe en effet que le réseau radio et
 6     télévision de la Société Radio-Canada soit doté d'un
 7     financement solide et stable pour plusieurs années.
 8  1154                 Mais au-delà des ressources
 9     financières, il y a les ressources humaines.  Or, comme
10     le démontre le tableau suivant, les effectifs de la
11     Société Radio-Canada ont diminué au total de 7,6 pour
12     cent depuis 1997.  Une telle situation n'est pas sans
13     inquiéter car, pour offrir une programmation
14     diversifiée et de qualité, il importe d'avoir un
15     personnel qualifié et surtout en nombre suffisant. 
16     D'autres compressions de personnel risqueraient de
17     mettre en péril la réalisation du mandat de la Société
18     Radio-Canada.  Nous avons aussi un tableau qui démontre
19     ces chiffres-là et notre mémoire est disponible après
20     la présentation aussi.
21  1155                 Nous désirons tout de même saluer les
22     efforts de la Société Radio-Canada visant à recruter et
23     à former de jeunes stagiaires provenant des régions
24     minoritaires.  Il va sans dire également que nous
25     aimerions voir et entendre beaucoup plus d'animateurs


 1     du milieu, à l'exemple de Francis Marchildon sur les
 2     ondes de CBKF Saskatchewan.  De telles initiatives ne
 3     peuvent en effet que renforcer la fierté et le
 4     sentiment d'appartenance des Fransaskois.  À ce sujet,
 5     nous désirons pareillement applaudir l'implication de
 6     Radio-Canada dans les activités communautaires de la
 7     communauté fransaskoise.  Il s'agit-là d'un apport
 8     primordial qui n'est pas à dédaigner.
 9  1156                 En conclusion, la télévision et la
10     radio de la Société Radio-Canada en Saskatchewan ont un
11     rôle primordial dans la sauvegarde, l'épanouissement et
12     le développement de la communauté fransaskoise.  Il va
13     sans dire que la disparition ou même la réduction des
14     services à la télévision ou à la radio aurait des
15     effets néfastes pour la communauté fransaskoise aux
16     prises, faut-il le rappeler, avec un taux
17     d'assimilation élevé.  En ce sens donc, les services de
18     la Société Radio-Canada en Saskatchewan doivent être
19     maintenus et même étendus davantage.
20  1157                 Toutefois, comme nous l'avons
21     souligné dans les pages qui précèdent, la programmation
22     de la Société Radio-Canada, tant à la télévision qu'à
23     la radio, devrait refléter davantage la réalité des
24     Fransaskois.  Il serait en outre opportun d'accroître
25     le nombre d'heures de production réalisées en


 1     Saskatchewan car, si la Société Radio-Canada espère
 2     faire connaître aux Québécois la réalité des
 3     Fransaskois comme l'exige son mandat, il n'y a pas
 4     d'autre façon que celle de produire ici des émissions
 5     qui seront diffusées sur le réseau national.
 6  1158                 Nous avons aussi à l'annexe de notre
 7     présentation des exemples d'activités communautaires
 8     dans lesquelles les membres de la Société Radio-Canada
 9     s'impliquent dans leur communauté.  Alors, la Société
10     Radio-Canada en Saskatchewan fait partie de la
11     communauté.  C'est une composante très, très importante
12     et appréciée.
13  1159                 Cela met fin à notre présentation. 
14     Merci beaucoup pour votre attention.
15  1160                 LA PRÉSIDENTE:  Merci.
16  1161                 Mr. Secretary.
17  1162                 Perhaps we will take a 10-minute
18     break and then we will have the next people come up.
19  1163                 Thank you.
20     --- Recess / Pause
21  1164                 LA PRÉSIDENTE:  On recommence.  We
22     will start again if everybody is here.
23  1165                 Mr. Secretary.
24  1166                 MR. LAHAY:  Thank you,
25     Commissioner Cram.


 1  1167                 I will go down the list here for the
 2     next presenters.
 3  1168                 Could I have you please raise your
 4     hand or indicate yourself, your presence to the
 5     Commission so I will know who is and who isn't here,
 6     please.
 7  1169                 Claudia Poirier, Claire
 8     Bélanger-Parker; Armand Roy; Stephen Kenny;
 9     Jim Elliott, please come forward; Dr. Bromley,
10     Mrs. Bromley; Doug McKay; Ken Chikle; Elmer Hildebrand,
11     if you could please come forward; Dr. Edward Lewis,
12     again, please; Darcy McKenzie; Alex Zypchyn, please
13     come forward, thank you; and Cathy Currey.
14                                                        1952
15  1170                 Okay.  We will start, please, with
16     Claudia Poirier.
17  1171                 I would like to remind everybody,
18     please, to respect the 10-minute limit.
19  1172                 Thank you.
21  1173                 MME POIRIER:  Bonsoir.  Notre
22     présentation va être en français ce soir si ça va.
23  1174                 Alors, notre objectif ce soir c'est
24     de faire comprendre l'importance pour la communauté
25     canadienne-française vivant en milieu minoritaire en


 1     Saskatchewan, les Fransaskois et les Fransaskoises, que
 2     Radio-Canada voit son mandat reconfirmé pour lui
 3     permettre de poursuivre sa mission, d'être une
 4     ressource publique qui appartient à tous les Canadiens
 5     et Canadiennes.
 6  1175                 Ce service français et anglais vise à
 7     informer, à enrichir et à divertir.  Radio-Canada
 8     alimente la croissance nationale collective en
 9     célébrant la diversité culturelle et régionale du
10     Canada, en tissant des liens entre les diverses
11     collectivités de langues officielles et en incitant les
12     citoyens et citoyennes à participer activement à la vie
13     du pays.  Radio-Canada crée, livre et présente des
14     émissions de haut calibre et se distingue des autres et
15     diffuse les meilleures productions étrangères issues
16     des quatre coins du monde.
17  1176                 La Division scolaire francophone est
18     responsable de la gestion de douze écoles francophones
19     dispersées à la grandeur de la province.  Dans sa
20     situation minoritaire en Saskatchewan, parmi les défis
21     qu'elle doit relever pour bien répondre aux besoins des
22     élèves, il y a l'offre d'occasions d'entendre et de
23     parler en français sur une base quotidienne, l'offre
24     d'un carrefour qui permet aux élèves, sur une base
25     régulière, d'échanger en français et de se connaître


 1     sans se déplacer d'une communauté à l'autre, un accès
 2     en français à l'actualité provinciale, nationale et
 3     internationale.
 4  1177                 De par son mandat public,
 5     Radio-Canada est l'organisme de choix pour répondre à
 6     ces besoins.  En nous référant aux champs d'action
 7     principaux de la mission de la Société Radio-Canada, la
 8     Division scolaire francophone souhaite vous faire
 9     connaître les raisons pourquoi Radio-Canada est
10     nécessaire à l'éducation de notre jeunesse ainsi qu'au
11     développement et à l'épanouissement de la communauté
12     fransaskoise vivant en milieu minoritaire.
13  1178                 Premier point:  Informer, enrichir et
14     divertir.  Avec la technologie qui prend une place
15     prépondérante dans la vie de tous les jours, son
16     intégration dans nos systèmes scolaires n'est plus un
17     luxe mais bel et bien une nécessité.  Que ce soit un
18     accès à l'actualité, à l'information ou un forum
19     d'échanges publiques pan-canadien en Saskatchewan, le
20     service public de la radio et de la télévision de la
21     Société Radio-Canada est notre seule planche de salut. 
22     Aucune radio ou télévision privée, y inclut la radio
23     communautaire, sont en mesure de répondre à nos droits
24     et à nos besoins, encore moins à nos attentes.
25  1179                 Deuxième point:  Alimenter la


 1     conscience nationale collective en célébrant la
 2     diversité culturelle et régionale du Canada.  Les
 3     Nations-Unies proclament le Canada comme étant un des
 4     meilleurs pays dans lequel il fait bon vivre.  Si nous
 5     voulons garder cette cote d'honneur, deux réalités
 6     démographiques doivent nous inciter à maintenir notre
 7     ressource publique qu'est Radio-Canada/CBC.
 8  1180                 Premièrement, tout comme la
 9     communauté fransaskoise doit se donner des
10     infrastructures uniques et spécifiques pour surmonter
11     la perte de sa langue et de sa culture à cause de sa
12     situation minoritaire en Saskatchewan, la même réalité
13     s'applique aux Canadiens et Canadiennes par rapport à
14     leur situation minoritaire en Amérique.
15  1181                 Deuxièmement, la géographie du pays
16     crée chez nos populations provinciales une tendance à
17     se balkaniser, ce qui nous apporte à oublier que la
18     force et la richesse du Canada est le résultat de sa
19     diversité et du respect de cette diversité.  Dans notre
20     monde de technologie et de communication mondiale, les
21     citoyens canadiens seraient perdants si les
22     gouvernements et le CRTC permettaient la disparition de
23     Radio-Canada et de la CBC.
24  1182                 Selon la Division scolaire
25     francophone, à l'arrivée du 21e siècle, ce n'est pas


 1     une réduction des services de notre ressource publique
 2     de diffusion radiophonique et de télévision qu'il nous
 3     faut, mais bien au contraire, c'est une augmentation de
 4     services tels la radio et la télévision, RDI, RDH, RDE,
 5     et RDC.  De choisir le contraire ce n'est pas seulement
 6     à la survie de la culture francophone à laquelle il
 7     faut dire adieu c'est à la culture canadienne... un
 8     point, c'est tout.
 9  1183                 Troisième point:  Tisser les liens
10     entre les diverses collectivités de langues
11     officielles.  Cet élément de la mission de la Société
12     démontre encore une fois l'aspect indispensable de la
13     ressource publique qu'est Radio-Canada.
14  1184                 Il demeure crucial qu'en tant que
15     Société spécifique canadienne nous sommes les seuls en
16     mesure de comprendre l'importance de ce mandat qui
17     représente deux volets:  premièrement, celui d'assurer
18     au regroupement de langues officielles vivant en
19     situation minoritaire de bénéficier d'un service de
20     communication pan-canadien dans leur langue;
21     deuxièmement, notre Société d'état doit promouvoir
22     l'unité nationale en fournissant des forums
23     d'information sociale, communautaire et publique pour
24     permettre aux citoyens et citoyennes d'être informés,
25     de dialoguer et de se questionner.  C'est le moyen par


 1     excellence d'assurer que nos diversités et nos
 2     priorités régionales soient connues et comprises a mare
 3     usque ad mare.
 4  1185                 Quatrième point:  Inciter les
 5     citoyens et citoyennes à participer activement à la vie
 6     du pays.  Pour nous en Saskatchewan cet élément du
 7     mandat est bien exécuté dans le cadre de la
 8     collaboration de partenariats et de parrainage de
 9     projets de développement communautaire tels le
10     Francothon, le Gala fransaskois, d'émissions
11     communautaires, des ateliers techniques pour nos
12     élèves, d'expositions d'arts et de photographie, de La
13     grande dictée fransaskoise, et j'en passe.
14  1186                 Cinquième et dernier point:  Créer,
15     livrer et présenter des émissions de haut calibre.  Cet
16     élément de la mission de la SRC présente des moyens qui
17     lui permettent de continuer à offrir à la communauté
18     fransaskoise, qui inclut les écoles de la Division
19     scolaire fransaskoise, des émissions qui répondent à
20     nos attentes et à nos besoins.  Nous pensons à des
21     émissions nationales telles "Le Téléjournal", "Le
22     Point", des documentaires scientifiques, historiques et
23     culturels, RDI, "La Semaine verte", "Second regard",
24     "Découverte", et caetera.
25  1187                 En deuxième lieu, il a toute la


 1     programmation provinciale et régionale qui est taillée
 2     sur mesure pour nous et souvent avec nous. 
 3     Quelques-unes de ces productions sont à la télévision: 
 4     le "Ce Soir", le "Clan destin", "Les petites annonces",
 5     "Le reflet des régions", et le projet "Incognito".  À
 6     la radio, les bulletins de nouvelles, l'émission
 7     "L'Ouest Aujourd'hui", "Les contes du monde", "Les
 8     petits plaisirs", "Les contes de Noël", "Le grand
 9     défi", le "Sept Douze"(ph), et j'en passe.
10  1188                 Comme conclusion et en très peu de
11     mots, la Division scolaire francophone a besoin de
12     Radio-Canada pour atteindre ses buts éducatifs dans le
13     21e siècle.  Nous comptons sur Radio-Canada non
14     seulement pour maintenir sa programmation régionale
15     actuelle mais de l'intensifier, autant par rapport à la
16     télévision qu'à la radio.  Il va donc sans dire que
17     nous exhortons le CRTC de lui reconnaître le mandat de
18     le faire ainsi que lui en donner la responsabilité.
19  1189                 Merci.
20  1190                 LA PRÉSIDENTE:  Merci,
21     Madame Poirier.
22  1191                 Mr. Secretary.
23                                                        2006
24  1192                 MR. LAHAY:  Thank you.
25  1193                 Claire Bélanger-Parker, please.


 1  1194                 M. BILODEAU:  Point d'ordre, Madame
 2     la Présidente.  Nous avons d'autres engagements ce
 3     soir.  Est-ce permis de quitter la table?
 4  1195                 LA PRÉSIDENTE:  Oui.
 5  1196                 M. BILODEAU:  Merci beaucoup.
 7     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
 8  1197                 MME BÉLANGER-PARKER:  ... of the
 9     Association canadienne française de Regina.  I welcome
10     anyone who wishes to listen to this presentation to use
11     the interpretation receiver.  Thank you.
12  1198                 Nous désirons remercier les membres
13     du CRTC de nous offrir l'opportunité d'exprimer notre
14     opinion au sujet des services de Radio-Canada en
15     Saskatchewan.
16  1199                 L'Association canadienne française de
17     Regina, qui a pour mission de développer et de
18     promouvoir la langue française de Regina, désire
19     aujourd'hui exprimer son sentiment d'appartenance à
20     Radio-Canada.
21  1200                 La radio de Radio-Canada c'est une
22     voix, une écoute pour notre communauté!  Depuis
23     l'arrivée de la radio française de Radio-Canada en
24     Saskatchewan, L'Association canadienne française de
25     Regina a grandement bénéficié de ses services.  La


 1     radio française contribue énormément au développement
 2     de la communauté à travers ses reportages et ses
 3     émissions spéciales.
 4  1201                 Certaines émissions sont à caractère
 5     très communautaire, faites par des gens d'ici pour des
 6     gens d'ici.  Ces dernières années, nous avons vu une
 7     augmentation des heures de diffusion et c'est au grand
 8     plaisir du public.  Notre communauté a soif d'une plus
 9     grande représentation sur les ondes de Radio-Canada,
10     que ce soit à la radio ou à la télévision.
11  1202                 Cette radio a grandement contribué et
12     continue de contribuer à l'ensemble des communautés
13     puisqu'elle nous permet de s'entendre, de se promouvoir
14     et de s'épanouir.  Cette radio est à la fois un outil
15     pour nos jeunes et nos aînés et rejoint les Fransaskois
16     et les Fransaskoises dans leur foyer.  La radio de
17     Radio-Canada remplit son mandat chez nous.  Il y a des
18     moments où elle fait tellement partie de notre
19     quotidien que nous prenons très à coeur leur couverture
20     médiatique, surtout si elle ne nous donne pas l'image
21     que nous espérions refléter.
22  1203                 Étant le seul service radiophonique
23     francophone en Saskatchewan, elle est un service
24     essentiel à notre survie, à notre épanouissement et à
25     notre développement.  Elle est un outil de francisation


 1     qui touche tous les membres de notre communauté.  La
 2     nouvelle technologie nous permet maintenant d'accéder à
 3     certaines émissions sur Internet.  Pour les Fransaskois
 4     et les Fransaskoises bien branchés, c'est une autre
 5     ressource essentielle à notre survie à Regina en
 6     Saskatchewan.
 7  1204                 Les concours et les émissions
 8     permettent à plusieurs auteurs, compositeurs, écrivains
 9     et musiciens de faire connaître leurs oeuvres.  Les
10     artistes visuels de Regina travaillent étroitement avec
11     la Société Radio-Canada sur des projets comme
12     l'Opération Coeur au ventre, au bénéfice des banques
13     alimentaires de Regina et Saskatoon.  Les auteurs
14     compositeurs s'unissent à Radio-Canada pour la réussite
15     du Gala de la chanson fransaskoise.  Et ce ne sont que
16     quelques exemples des contributions de Radio-Canada.
17  1205                 La télévision de Radio-Canada c'est
18     un regard sur la francophonie canadienne.  D'une part,
19     la première chaîne de Radio-Canada a encore beaucoup de
20     chemin à faire pour bien refléter la présence des
21     Fransaskois et des Fransaskoises de Regina.  Bien sûr,
22     les équipes de Regina contribuent aux émissions
23     nationales et internationales mais il reste du travail
24     à faire.  Les dirigeants de la maison mère de
25     Radio-Canada ont encore des devoirs à faire et le


 1     gouvernement canadien se doit de maintenir et même
 2     d'augmenter le financement de notre télévision
 3     publique.  À  Regina, nous jouissons d'une couverture
 4     quotidienne des événements qui se passent chez nous,
 5     mais c'est bien peu pour une télévision qui se dit le
 6     reflet de notre communauté.
 7  1206                 Afin de bien représenter la
 8     communauté fransaskoise, le financement doit être
 9     adéquat.  Les distances énormes entre les communautés
10     et les compressions budgétaires ne font que réduire la
11     qualité à laquelle nous avons été habitué.  La première
12     chaîne de Radio-Canada a perdu son image glorifiante du
13     passé, mais il ne faut pas pour autant l'abandonner. 
14     Il faut au contraire l'enrichir d'une couverture
15     nationale où toutes les communautés, québécoises et
16     canadiennes s'y retrouvent.
17  1207                 Avec toutes les connaissances de
18     Radio-Canada en Saskatchewan, il serait déplorable de
19     voir notre télévision nationale disparaître.  Nous
20     sommes à un point tournant dans l'histoire puisque les
21     communications n'ont plus de barrières.  Le monde
22     entier se regarde.
23  1208                 D'autre part, l'avènement de RDI a
24     presque révolutionné la vision du Québec envers notre
25     communauté.  À maintes et maintes reprises, nous avons


 1     accueilli des Québécois et des Québécoises de passe qui
 2     regardaient assidûment les émissions qui touchent les
 3     communautés hors Québec, soit "L'Accent francophone",
 4     "L'Ouest en direct" et bien d'autres.  Grâce à ces
 5     émissions, Regina bénéficie aujourd'hui d'une
 6     visibilité qui offre des opportunités de développement
 7     économique jamais exploitées auparavant.
 8  1209                 La communauté artistique de Regina
 9     bénéficie énormément de la présence de la télévision
10     française.  Le Gala de la chanson fransaskoise, la Fête
11     fransaskoise, le Coup de coeur francophone, le Pavillon
12     francophone de Mosaic, sont des manifestations
13     culturelles qui se voient propulseés sur les ondes de
14     RDI, une visibilité extraordinaire pour les artistes
15     francophones de Regina.
16  1210                 C'est aussi avec beaucoup
17     d'enthousiasme que nous attendons la venue des chaînes
18     spécialisées comme RDA, le Réseau des Arts, RDE, le
19     Réseau de l'Économie, et RDH, le Réseau de l'Histoire. 
20     Nous doutons un peu de la bonne volonté de notre
21     câblodistributeur de mettre ces réseaux à notre
22     disposition puisque même RDI, le Réseau de
23     l'Information, n'est pas accessible à tous.
24  1211                 Plusieurs pressions ont été faites
25     auprès de notre câblodistributeur afin d'avoir accès


 1     aux services de RDI sur le service de base.  Nos
 2     plaintes sont tombées dans l'oreille d'un sourd.  RDI
 3     se retrouve dans un forfait avec les chaînes Treehouse,
 4     CNBC et PBS Seattle, soit trois chaînes américaines qui
 5     n'ont rien à voir avec les besoins des communautés
 6     francophones.
 7  1212                 Nous implorons le CRTC de changer ses
 8     règlements en ce qui a trait à RDI.  L'Association
 9     canadienne française de Regina vous demande d'exiger
10     que RDI soit disponible sur le service de base.  C'est
11     une nécessité chez nous.
12  1213                 En terminant, il faut toujours se
13     rappeler que la radio et la télévision française jouent
14     un rôle essentiel dans le développement et
15     l'épanouissement de notre communauté.  Soyez à l'écoute
16     des besoins des communautés francophones hors Québec.
17  1214                 Nous sommes heureux que vous ayez
18     accordé à TVA un accès au service de base.  Toutefois,
19     nous avons certaines réserves à ce que TVA pourra
20     offrir comme couverture médiatique des événements
21     francophones hors Québec.  RDI fait déjà un excellent
22     travail.  Pourquoi ne pas lui accorder aussi cette
23     licence?
24  1215                 Il faut continuer d'augmenter les
25     productions locales afin de mieux refléter notre


 1     milieu.  Radio-Canada fait partie du quotidien des
 2     francophones de Regina depuis le début du siècle.  Sans
 3     sa présence, nous oublierons tout doucement ce qui est
 4     l'essence de notre identité et nous serons tout
 5     doucement oubliés par les six millions sept cents mille
 6     francophones qui font la richesse de notre pays.
 7  1216                 Merci.
 8  1217                 LA PRÉSIDENTE:  Merci,
 9     Madame Bélanger-Parker.
10  1218                 Mr. Secretary.
11                                                        2013
12  1219                 MR. LAHAY:  Thank you.
13  1220                 Armand Roy, please.
15  1221                 MR. ROY:  Thank you.
16  1222                 First of all, I just wanted to make a
17     comment that the acting President of our local was
18     supposed to join me tonight and wasn't able to because
19     of the incidences in the labour dispute, so I will be
20     making this presentation on my own.
21  1223                 Who we are is the communications,
22     energy and paperworkers who are on strike at the CBC at
23     the moment in Regina.  We represent the technicians and
24     the designers at the CBC.
25  1224                 We adamantly say that we are in


 1     favour of renewing the CBC's licence.  It is our intent 
 2     in this presentation to alert the CRTC to our concerns
 3     for the future of public broadcasting in Canada.  We
 4     feel very strongly that the CBC has lost the intent of
 5     its mandate and that its licence renewal should be
 6     based upon delivery of programming to all Canadians
 7     about all Canadians.
 8  1225                 Throughout the last 15 years the CBC
 9     has suffered from continuous, unrelenting cuts.  The
10     staff and budget have been reduced by more than half
11     since 1985.  Despite this, the corporation has
12     continued to attempt to provide award-winning,
13     internationally acclaimed, creative programming to
14     Canadians.  Attempting to run French and English radio,
15     French and English television, RDI, CBC Newsworld, as
16     well as CBC North is no small task when faced with
17     budget restrictions that have been imposed.
18  1226                 The unions have fought hard to make
19     Canadians aware of the plight of CBC.  We have
20     co-operated with CBC management to reach agreements
21     which would assist the corporation during its financial
22     difficulties because of our belief in the value of
23     public broadcasting.
24  1227                 I can cite, for example, that I was
25     in the last round of negotiations and we made many


 1     concessions in order to help CBC get through its
 2     turmoil.
 3  1228                 In our view, public broadcasting is
 4     an essential element of the fabric of Canada.  We have
 5     seen the private media concentrated into larger and
 6     larger media empires.  These monopolies tend to build
 7     their empires on American-based programming schedules
 8     with only a minimum of legislated and monitored
 9     Canadian content.  The CBC offers a truly Canadian
10     alternative to the profit-making motives of private
11     broadcasters, all the while presenting programs which
12     have achieved numerous awards and still maintain a
13     credible audience share despite the multi-channel
14     universe.
15  1229                 But now we find the CBC is at a very
16     delicate crossroad.  According to the CBC and the
17     federal government, stable funding has now been
18     established.  The CBC is claiming that further cuts are
19     no longer an issue.  Our strike is based on that
20     belief.  Our members have taken the brunt of the
21     downsizing efforts and have accepted wage settlements
22     that have virtually amounted to reductions in income. 
23     Today we are asking for a reasonable settlement
24     reflecting the industry standards of the talent and
25     high skills we possess.


 1  1230                 Our concern is the CBC and the
 2     federal government may use recent events to justify
 3     reductions in service to Canadians.  We have felt
 4     immense pressure upon regional broadcasting.  In
 5     Regina, we once produced numerous local and regional
 6     programs which were broadcast across Saskatchewan and
 7     in many cases across Canada.  CBC English television in
 8     Saskatchewan now produces approximately eight hours of
 9     programming a week, all of which is news and current
10     affairs.
11  1231                 French regional television
12     broadcasting does even less.
13  1232                 Even in radio, the amount of locally
14     produced programs have been reduced dramatically.
15  1233                 In addition, CBC Saskatchewan is no
16     longer a separate region.  It is now part of the
17     prairie region and administered in Winnipeg.
18  1234                 The CBC has been a great contributor
19     to the community of Canada by providing a voice of
20     Canadians, by Canadians, to Canadians.  The
21     contributions made by the regions have been invaluable
22     in allowing CBC to meet its mandate.  Today this has
23     been severely injured.  Our strike is not only about
24     money and job security, but it is about saving the CBC
25     from itself.  If the CBC sees fit to eliminate regional


 1     broadcasting, we feel it won't be long before the
 2     public broadcaster will lose its relevance and its very
 3     existence.  The pressure to privatize the CBC has never
 4     been greater.
 5  1235                 If CBC is to continue to meet its
 6     objectives and its mandate, the CRTC must issue its
 7     licence ensuring the continuation and expansion of
 8     regional broadcasting.  How else are Canadians going to
 9     learn about each other?  Communication is the catalyst
10     to nation building.  CBC is the recognized communicator
11     for the voice of all Canadians.
12  1236                 We are afraid the CBC may become a
13     centralist broadcaster with all programming being
14     generated at the Toronto or Montreal broadcast centres. 
15     Already all the decision making is relegated to the
16     Toronto, Montreal, Windsor corridor.  This certainly
17     does not reflect the rest of Canada.  We have seen too
18     many initiatives at the CBC which have led us to
19     believe our views are not without substance.
20  1237                 In 1985 Midday was a regional program
21     produced locally with local content.  Today it is a
22     nationally produced program with no regional content. 
23     In 1990, besides the local news, Switchback and Country
24     West were among many of the locally produced programs. 
25     Today we produce only regional news.


 1  1238                 Even that is at risk.  The launch of
 2     the new regionally broadcast supper hour news program
 3     was filled with work that was once done locally.  The
 4     logo for the program was designed in Vancouver.  The
 5     set was designed and built in Toronto.  On top of that,
 6     many of the functions which made local CBC productions
 7     unique to Saskatchewan have been reduced or eliminated.
 8  1239                 Often the argument is made that the
 9     money once slated to the CBC to produce arts and drama
10     could have been put to better use by directing it to
11     independent producers for co-productions.  In fact,
12     although some of the effects of this have been very
13     positive, the affect on CBC regional facilities has
14     been very detrimental.
15  1240                 The Broadcast Centre in Regina has
16     now less activity than CBC did when it worked out of
17     facilities in Moose Jaw in 1975.  In the design
18     department alone, the employees have been reduced from
19     a complement of eight in 1983 to one today.  Much of
20     the state-of-the-art equipment lies idle.
21  1241                 Several private and public interests
22     in Saskatchewan have shown to us their concern that the
23     studios in Regina may end up slated for some other
24     federal government departments.  This would be a
25     travesty.  Built in 1983, the Regina Broadcast Centre


 1     is CBC's most modern regional facility.
 2  1242                 As participants in the community, we
 3     are often faced with questions of our presence at news
 4     and community events.  Local politicians, labour
 5     groups, and community and sports organizations
 6     regularly complain or comment on the lack of CBC
 7     presence at important events.  This is a far cry from
 8     the days when the public complained about too many CBC
 9     staff.
10  1243                 There is little the CRTC can do to
11     increase funding to the CBC, as that is the role of
12     government.  But in your capacity as the regulator and
13     administrator of broadcasting licences, you can direct
14     the CBC to protect those interests that best serve
15     Canadians.  We firmly believe that the protection and
16     re-establishment of a strong regional CBC will achieve
17     the mandate of both the CBC and the expectations of
18     Canadians.
19  1244                 In summary, we believe in public
20     broadcasting and, in particular, in the CBC.  We
21     believe the CBC should be a reflection of Canada's
22     diverse regions.  Thirdly, any licence renewal should
23     be conditional upon the re-establishment of CBC's
24     regional and local contribution.
25  1245                 Thank you for entertaining our


 1     presentation.  We trust you will consider our points in
 2     renewing the CBC's licence.
 3  1246                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Roy.
 4  1247                 Mr. Secretary.
 5  1248                 MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 6                                                        2020
 7  1249                 Stephen Kenny.
 9  1250                 M. KENNY:  Bonsoir, mesdames et
10     messieurs.  Je m'appelle Steve Kenny et je suis
11     professeur d'histoire au Collège Campion de
12     l'Université de Regina.  Dans la petite communauté
13     d'historiens ici à Regina, j'enseigne des cours sur la
14     période entre la conquête et la Confédération ainsi que
15     des cours sur les rapports canado-américains et les
16     rapports entre Canadiens d'expression anglaise et
17     française.
18  1251                 Je vais suivre une approche un peu
19     différente, plutôt personnelle.  Je suis ici pour
20     soutenir le renouvellement de la licence de
21     Radio-Canada et CBC et naturellement pour louanger la
22     Société.
23  1252                 En guise de préface et à titre
24     personnel, j'aimerais vous dire qu'avant de venir en
25     Saskatchewan il y a à peu près quinze ans, j'ai


 1     enseigné l'histoire du Canada à l'Université du Vermont
 2     à Burlington, dans le département d'histoire là-bas. 
 3     C'était une expérience et un moment tournant dans ma
 4     vie personnelle, et le contraste de ma situation alors
 5     m'a frappé et me frappe toujours.
 6  1253                 Bien entendu, je pesais moins,
 7     j'étais plus jeune, mes enfants étaient de l'âge de
 8     l'école maternelle et la petite école, et là-bas, 60-70
 9     kilomètres de la frontière du Québec et Vermont, une
10     heure et demie de la métropole montréalaise, il
11     n'existait pas la moindre possibilité de faire éduquer
12     mes enfants en français.  Je ne pouvais même pas
13     acheter un journal d'expression française.
14  1254                 Dans mes cours à Burlington, j'avais
15     des étudiants franco-américains de troisième et
16     quatrième génération qui avaient complètement perdu
17     leur francité, langue et culture.  Plus qu'une fois,
18     les vieux, en nous entendant parler français, même dans
19     la rue des fois, s'arrêtaient pour parler à mes enfants
20     en nous expliquant que leurs propres petits-enfants ne
21     parlaient plus un mot de français, des fois avec des
22     larmes aux yeux.
23  1255                 Ma femme et moi, vivant ce que les
24     sociologues caractérisent un mariage exogame, moi
25     anglophone, elle francophone, avons décidé d'insister


 1     sur le français à la maison.  Pas de danger que nos
 2     enfants allaient accaparer l'anglais aux États-Unis. 
 3     Par miracle, un de nos seuls soutiens, Radio-Canada,
 4     était avec nous par le truchement du câble.  Mes
 5     enfants ont grandi avec "Bobino et Bobinette", "Belle
 6     et Sébastien", "Passe-partout" et compagnie et j'en
 7     suis fort reconnaissant.  Il ne faut pas me demander si
 8     je considère Radio-Canada comme primordial et essentiel
 9     à la bonne santé de la communauté francophone à
10     l'extérieur du Québec.
11  1256                 J'aimerais bien vous souligner que la
12     Société Radio-Canada est le seul et unique radio et
13     télédiffuseur voué à une programmation principalement
14     canadienne en anglais et en français à travers le pays. 
15     Bien évidemment, là-dessus, je ne vous apprends rien si
16     ce n'est pas pour vous rappeler que d'autres
17     compagnies, d'autres chaînes ne sont pas engagées dans
18     cette même voie.  Pire, elles ont résisté une
19     programmation canadienne, et sans entrer dans les
20     détails, toute personne qui parle français en
21     Saskatchewan et dans l'ouest canadien sait
22     l'obstination et le refus des chaînes privées et les
23     compagnies de câble d'augmenter ou d'améliorer leurs
24     services en français au-delà de leur obligation légale
25     et minimale.


 1  1257                 J'ai été touché par la présentation
 2     de l'intervenant avant moi, M. Roy, et je regrette
 3     énormément que ces consultations que vous menez cette
 4     semaine tombent dans un contexte particulièrement
 5     difficile et critique pour la Société:  grève de
 6     techniciens, menace de grève de journalistes,
 7     discussions hautement politiques de la présidence,
 8     baisse des cotes d'écoute, démoralisation et des cadres
 9     et du personnel suite à plusieurs années de
10     compressions budgétaires, de restructuration et de
11     diminution tout court.
12  1258                 Beaucoup de gens, particulièrement
13     ceux qui sont hostiles à Radio-Canada et CBC, voient
14     peut-être le moment propice pour livrer le coup de
15     grâce.  Bien évidemment, je ne suis pas parmi ces
16     gens-là.
17  1259                 À mon avis, le défi de Radio-Canada
18     en tant que radio et télédiffuseur national est de
19     suivre un chemin équilibré entre la tradition et
20     l'innovation.  Bien entendu, ceci est beaucoup plus
21     facile à dire que d'accomplir.  Pourtant, je suis
22     hanté, et je dois le dire, outré, par ceux des deux
23     côtés de la frontière linguistique qui prétendent que
24     nous devons abandonner notre engagement et notre
25     soutien du français et de l'anglais dans le cadre de


 1     Radio-Canada.
 2  1260                 Je pense particulièrement à une
 3     phrase il y a quelques années du romancier, Beauchemin
 4     qui réfléchissait sur les communautés francophones à
 5     l'extérieur du Québec comme étant... il les
 6     caractérisait comme étant des cadavres toujours chauds.
 7  1261                 Aucun être n'est parfait.  Aucune
 8     institution.  Radio-Canada non plus.  Tandis que je
 9     reconnais la tension naturelle entre les grands centres
10     de production et les marges, je regrette un peu le
11     manque d'attention pour les régions.  Du côté des
12     régions, je regrette un peu la haute priorité donnée
13     dans les régions à couvrir que des régions. 
14     J'aimerais, par exemple, personnellement, avoir accès
15     ici en Saskatchewan à la chaîne culturelle à la radio,
16     et ensuite.
17  1262                 Le fait que nous parlons le français
18     à Regina en Saskatchewan, à Pointe-de-l'Église(ph) en
19     Nouvelle-Écosse, à Caraquet au Nouveau-Brunswick, à
20     Rivière Canard(ph) en Ontario et ainsi de suite, est dû
21     en grande partie au simple fait que nous avons accès à
22     toute cette communauté par l'intermédiaire de la
23     Société Radio-Canada et que la lutte et l'engagement
24     continuent.
25  1263                 Je vous remercie.


 1  1264                 LA PRÉSIDENTE:  Merci,
 2     Monsieur Kenny.
 3  1265                 Mr. Secretary.
 4  1266                 MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 5                                                        2030
 6  1267                 Jim Elliott.
 8  1268                 MR. ELLIOTT:  Madam Chairman, ladies
 9     and gentlemen, Commissioner, before I make my
10     presentation, I will let you know that I do have a
11     written copy of at least the basics of it.  I have done
12     some editing over the day, so bear with me.
13  1269                 Before I make some suggestions around
14     different points or parts of the CBC radio and
15     television system, I would like to make a broad
16     statement.
17  1270                 I think that CBC radio and television
18     is essentially the infrastructure that is keeping this
19     country together.  To me and to a lot of people that I
20     have been talking to over the past few weeks, the CBC
21     is in fact the only place where we can get information
22     about ourselves, information about different parts of
23     the country and, in fact, information about the rest of
24     the world.
25  1271                 This goes all the way through the


 1     after hours rebroadcasting of other national public
 2     broadcasters such as Australia and South Africa, and
 3     even into Britain and France and Germany, it goes from
 4     that to our local news hours as well as into what I
 5     would consider a mechanism for getting a regional voice
 6     into the system, because it is very few places that you
 7     run into shows like Cross Country Checkup where you can
 8     in fact phone from anywhere in the country and put
 9     forward your comments on a specific issue.
10  1272                 CBC radio, in that sense, I look at
11     it as being the community centre of this country or
12     this community that we call Canada.  Within that you
13     have a support structure.  You have a system of rooms
14     or places where people can gather and talk.  You also
15     have a chance for people to get to know each other, to
16     introduce themselves to other people and you are not
17     necessarily seen as being an outsider when you are in
18     that room or in that community centre.
19  1273                 Now, since I'm still quite behind in
20     the sense of systems, I still have a radio that you
21     actually have to turn the dial to change the channels. 
22     With that, in fact, I think, in a nutshell, it
23     encourages me just to leave it where it is, which is
24     CBC.  I don't change it that often.
25  1274                 I also, in some cases, fall asleep to


 1     the radio at night and in fact I have woken up at three
 2     o'clock in the morning and listened to what is
 3     happening in Germany for 15 to 20 minutes and then go
 4     back to sleep.  It's quite an interesting chance when
 5     you get a chance to listen to some of the other
 6     national broadcasters around the world.  What we
 7     typically think of is what's happening in various
 8     countries on various problems, whether it is a war or
 9     uprisings or economic things.  Getting it from their
10     perspective I think has a value, and in that respect
11     the CBC is providing that same value, both to our own
12     residents but also probably to the world in the sense
13     of what we do as -- and when we broadcast our signals
14     around the world.
15  1275                 I think the CBC is also critical when
16     we are trying to understand what is happening in
17     Saskatchewan because, again, there are very few radio
18     stations in this province that will broadcast things
19     that are happening all over the province.  They will
20     take a certain amount of regional bias to it, but they
21     generally won't take much more than maybe what is
22     happening in Regina because it's a government city,
23     that type of thing, or maybe a university issue, or
24     something like that, or they may pick up Saskatoon and
25     Prince Albert forestry issues, but very few kind of


 1     take in the whole gamut of issues and programs around
 2     the province.
 3  1276                 As I'm also I guess part of a growing
 4     community in this country that doesn't have a lot of
 5     access to a lot of resources, whether that's monetary
 6     or other, I'm stuck with basically the four channels of
 7     television in Regina, the two privates and two publics.
 8  1277                 Now, again, part of my interest in
 9     the CBC is Canadian content, whether that is Canadian
10     broadcasting about what is going on in different areas
11     in the sense of a news broadcast, whether that's
12     Canadian stories such as what is happening in Big Bear
13     and some of the maritime ones and even some of the
14     northern ones like North of 60, also, the Canadian news
15     because, again, I like to know what is going on in this
16     country perhaps more than I do about what is going on
17     in the rest of the world.  If I have that choice, I
18     clearly stay within the CBC.
19  1278                 Now, I have put together about nine
20     points that I am going to run through as some
21     suggestions and some ideas around making some
22     modifications or looking at things a little bit
23     differently.
24  1279                 In respect to the rebroadcasting of
25     The National, I think it would be a better approach


 1     to -- I think someone else had mentioned before
 2     sandwiching the local stuff within the context of the
 3     rebroadcast of The National.  It's just as everybody is
 4     generally getting older these days, the idea of trying
 5     to stay up until 11:30, you know, or a quarter to 12:00
 6     just to hear -- watch the news hour isn't going to
 7     happen, so you are likely then to go to other local
 8     broadcasters such as Global.  They broadcast at 10:30,
 9     so you can get your local news well beyond that and
10     people will be going to bed much earlier than that.
11  1280                 So even to that extent I would almost
12     say put the News Magazine after the local news as well. 
13     That again may encourage more interest in our local
14     broadcasting.
15  1281                 I think in some aspects there is too
16     much priority put on professional sports.  I hazard a
17     guess that if anybody doesn't want to watch television
18     on Saturday night, you know, most people are either
19     turning the TV off or they are unfortunately maybe
20     having to wander through the hockey to find out when
21     the news is because sometimes they put it in
22     intermission, sometimes they will put it at the end of
23     a game, you know.  So you have basically hockey going
24     from 5:30 in the afternoon until well past 11:00 and
25     you are clearly not going to gain much in the market


 1     share if that's the package that is going to be
 2     presented.
 3  1282                 Again, I'm not necessarily counting
 4     all of the sports broadcasting.  I think clearly we
 5     have to be in a position of presenting ourselves to
 6     ourselves in the sense of I would be very happy,
 7     probably quite happy to sit there for three hours and
 8     watch a Regina Pat's game.  Like, I've never
 9     necessarily made the effort to go out there, but it
10     would be worthwhile, I think, in my sense, to look at
11     something like that or even in other television
12     stations.  They do broadcasts of things like curling
13     and a variety of other local initiatives.
14  1283                 The third one is the regional news I
15     think should be given a higher priority than some of
16     the international stuff.  I think I have run into
17     enough people these days, almost to the point where if
18     I hear of one person, you know, or hear one more news
19     broadcast about people like Monica Lewinsky or
20     O.J. Simpson, Newt Gingrich type of thing, I think
21     there is probably going to be a few shoes thrown
22     through the TV channels -- or the TV, I should say.
23  1284                 One of the things which I guess --
24     because I do flip through the CBC French TV, one thing
25     I have found is that even just watching the visual part


 1     of the news, because unfortunately I can't take in all
 2     of what people are saying and the commentary that goes
 3     with it, I'm getting a sense of in fact things that are
 4     happening in Quebec that even we aren't hearing about. 
 5     Again, I'm not sure whether that's just a matter of it
 6     is not being seen as a priority within our national
 7     listing of what comes on the news.  But again I hear
 8     things about Quebec Hydro and various other fights, you
 9     know, discussions and all that, and we don't hear
10     anything about that out here.
11  1285                 Maybe I may have to take a little
12     more effort and perhaps learn a little bit more French
13     so that I will in fact be able to understand what they
14     are talking about.
15  1286                 Number five was looking at
16     performance arts and, again, more of that on the
17     television.  Even radio, I think it is quite strong in
18     that area, so I don't think we necessarily have to do
19     more of that, but just maintain a certain amount of
20     regional support for that.
21  1287                 But I think on the television, I
22     look, and again I look at some of the stuff that I have
23     seen through -- I don't know whether it is
24     retrospective or in fact sometimes when they can't seem
25     to find a good thing to put in that slot, so they just


 1     throw something in that was broadcast 20 years ago.  I
 2     look at some of the performance art going on, like the
 3     music performances.  I'm just wondering why we are not
 4     doing more of that in the sense of things like
 5     symphonies and even local stuff, you know, in the sense
 6     of:  Why is it not appropriate for us to be recording
 7     and broadcasting the Regina Symphony concert
 8     nationally?  Like, I don't see a reason why we
 9     shouldn't be doing that.
10  1288                 The next one is around some of the
11     shows that are currently going national.  Now, as it
12     turns out, I grew up on Peter Gzowski and Vicki
13     Gabereau and a few other people, so to the idea of
14     listening to someone different and doing a different
15     process, it seems to have lost some of the sparkle in
16     it.  Again, I'm not sure whether that necessarily is
17     attached with the personalities that are on the radio
18     or whether it is the formatting.  But in my mind, you
19     know, it doesn't sound like it was the same or it is
20     the same as it was before.
21  1289                 Obviously, you have heard a lot over
22     the past hours here, and I suspect even before you got
23     here and probably after you leave, about the adequate
24     resource support for such a broadcaster.  I think just
25     to even consider returning things to a level of where


 1     they were before, I think that it is clear there is
 2     going to have to be money put there.  I guess I would
 3     encourage you to be as strong as you can to the powers
 4     that be about what the people have told you and how
 5     much they value from what you have seen and heard over
 6     this time.
 7  1290                 The last one I'm going to put is
 8     around what I'm calling journalistic integrity of the
 9     news system.  Again, it's principally the TV news that
10     I have been picking up on.  I think in some aspects we
11     are starting to begin to get -- I guess politely
12     calling it -- political and administrative interference
13     in what in fact a reporter can or cannot report on.  I
14     think we clearly need to be -- looking at the news is
15     not a just a show that we try to create ratings around,
16     but in fact it's an accurate report of what is in fact
17     happening.
18  1291                 I think, as we have seen in some
19     cases with the amateur video slipping into the process
20     and various other television systems, unfortunately,
21     unless we want to see that happening in Canada more, we
22     will be probably seeing that happening in this
23     broadcasting system as well.
24  1292                 Now, I guess the last thing I will
25     point to -- and this is I guess my attempt to try to


 1     figure out a jargonistic type of description of what in
 2     fact I have been trying to describe to you, and I
 3     apologize in the sense that it is not entirely my ideas
 4     or my issue but it is more of a mixture of a couple of
 5     individuals' comments -- I guess when I look at the
 6     CBC, I see basically a mind virus checker in the sense
 7     that the mind is continually getting a lot of
 8     information, both digital and audio, coming into its
 9     system, whether that's through its ears and eyes or
10     whether it is just around it in the sense of the heat
11     and light and that type of thing.  We have all been
12     hearing a little bit of noise around us and we have an
13     ability to block some of that stuff from getting into
14     the system and in fact creating problems.
15  1293                 What I see is in fact the CBC is that
16     system of keeping things relevant, keeping things -- I
17     guess, you know, questioning what is going on, like,
18     "Why are you thinking that way", you know, "What's the
19     problem?  Can we work it out?  Let's hear what you have
20     to say", type of thing, because, unfortunately, I think
21     I see, if we don't have that process of stopping those
22     viruses or those ideas from infiltrating our community
23     and our country, we will begin to have parts of it not
24     knowing what the other parts are doing.
25  1294                 Again I think we are finding that out


 1     now.  In fact, what will happen is your right foot will
 2     be trying to go forward and your left foot will be
 3     actually trying to figure out if it should be going
 4     backwards.  You know, I think very quickly you can see
 5     that you are going to be in a position where it is
 6     going to be very unstable.  You are going to begin to
 7     start seeing I guess further divisions, further cracks
 8     developing.
 9  1295                 I think other than the fact of the
10     CBC being here, there is a lot of things that will get
11     worse if we don't take the effort to both encourage the
12     strength and promises of the CBC, but also discourage
13     some of the negative stuff.
14  1296                 Thank you.
15  1297                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
16     Mr. Elliott.
17  1298                 Mr. Secretary.
18  1299                 MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
19  1300                 I would just like to quickly run down
20     a few names here to make sure that nobody got missed. 
21     I wasn't sure if everybody came to the table on the
22     last call.
23  1301                 Dr. Bromley, would you come to the
24     table please, and Mrs. Bromley.
25  1302                 And Doug McKay, Ken Chikle.


 1                                                        2047
 2  1303                 Mr. Bromley, would you like to
 3     proceed next on the list?
 5  1304                 DR. BROMLEY:  Thank you,
 6     Madam Chairman.  I'm sorry I'm late.
 7  1305                 I think I should, first of all, give
 8     you a short summary of who I am.
 9  1306                 I came to Canada in 1964.  I am from
10     Myanmar, Burma.  I was born there.  I was educated in
11     India.  My family were from England.  So I have seen a
12     variety of broadcasting in India, the BBC; the
13     Netherlands, Patavia and Java; and now Canada.
14  1307                 It's very important that I say
15     something about it.  My presentation is very, very
16     short.  I corroborate what has been said and have
17     something to add to that.
18  1308                 The function of the CRTC.
19  1309                 The CRTC has been given a mandate by
20     the citizens of Canada to act as stewards to take care
21     of the CBC, a national institution, and to ensure that
22     the CBC is able to function efficiently and adequately
23     according to the wishes and interests of the citizens
24     of Canada.
25  1310                 I have put the burden, the onus on


 1     the CRTC.
 2  1311                 The function of the CBC:  The
 3     unifying bond.  The CBC is the glue which keeps this
 4     large country together by informing its people of what
 5     is happening in the rest of the country and also
 6     locally.
 7  1312                 A sense of history.  We would propose
 8     introduction of First Nation broadcasting.  It will
 9     give the Canadian people their sense of history with
10     progressive occupation by foreigners, with its present
11     multicultural and multiracial mix, and the acceptance
12     of reality to move forward.  We know who we came from,
13     who occupied the country.
14  1313                 Information.  To supply accurate and
15     trustworthy news by journalists of the highest calibre
16     uninfluenced by politicians or business.  The public
17     trusts the journalists more than they do the
18     politicians and they will be remembered longer than the
19     politicians, examples, Barbara Frum and Peter Gzowski.
20  1314                 Recreation.  Whether this be sports,
21     music, drama, plays or stand-up comics, the CBC has
22     been superb.  I know there is a move to try to cut down
23     the sports, but if some like sports, excessive sport
24     programming, let them have it if that keeps the
25     Canadian bonds together.


 1  1315                 A forum of discussion.  Open-line
 2     shows allow the public to present their views and
 3     opinions.
 4  1316                 Advertising.  This should not be
 5     allowed on CBC radio.  This service is unique the way
 6     it is and should not be allowed to deteriorate into the
 7     cacophony we hear on our radio systems.
 8  1317                 On the public deal, CBC.  We bracket
 9     the CBC in the same way in which we bracket Canadian
10     unity, medicare and education.  We all but try the
11     politicians who will to try to emasculate any of these
12     national ideals.
13  1318                 Thank you.  That's all I have to say.
14  1319                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
15     Dr. Bromley.
16  1320                 MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
17                                                        2050
18  1321                 Elmer Hildebrand.
20  1322                 MR. HILDEBRAND:  Thank you.
21  1323                 Madam Chair, Commissioners and
22     guests, I'm here today to share my views as a private
23     broadcaster about the CBC as it relates mainly to CBC
24     radio.
25  1324                 Personally, I have been in the


 1     broadcast business since 1957 and have watched the
 2     radio process since we first got a broadcast licence
 3     from the CBC at that time, which preceded the BBG and
 4     the CRTC in licensing private radio operators in
 5     Canada.
 6  1325                 In 1957, we started small.  We
 7     operated a 1,000 watt radio station in Altona,
 8     Manitoba -- the population at that time was 1,800 in
 9     that community -- with staff of nine people.  Today we
10     operate 12 radio stations, employing 200 people in the
11     three prairie provinces.
12  1326                 As the years unfolded, it became
13     obvious to me that in Canada we probably have the best
14     system of radio service anywhere in the world.  Our
15     blend of private and national radio is unique and could
16     be even better with the proper focus.
17  1327                 As I became involved in the industry
18     during the seventies and eighties and nineties, I was
19     involved with a variety of trade organizations in the
20     industry.  I often made the comment that if the CBC
21     wasn't as predatory and concentrated on broad general
22     service, as opposed to trying to be local, the country
23     would be even better served.
24  1328                 Even today, the CBC tries to compete
25     in offering a full local service in metro markets, even


 1     though there is already very adequate local service
 2     provided by many local broadcasters.
 3  1329                 During my tenure as Chair of the
 4     Canadian Association of Broadcasters, Pierre Juneau was
 5     the Chair at CBC.  We met and I suggested we should be
 6     working together more and not trying to trip each other
 7     up.  He agreed.  But shortly thereafter, he left his
 8     post at the CBC and I could not move the process
 9     forward with his successor.
10  1330                 Later on, I had many discussions with
11     your current President, and also with Harold Redekopp,
12     who runs CBC Radio, about how we might co-operate.
13  1331                 Since CBC has the largest news
14     operation in Canada, and maybe in North America for
15     that matter, I suggested that they be the national news
16     supplier to the private radio broadcasters.  As a
17     result, an historic trial process was ultimately
18     launched with our Manitoba network of radio stations
19     where we carried hourly news reports live from the CBC
20     National Newsroom.  This process worked very well and
21     we were certainly prepared to make a long-term
22     commitment with the CBC.  But probably because the CBC
23     can't make decisions easily or quickly, they could
24     never determine what to charge for this service.  What
25     started as a 13-week trial period was extended to


 1     26 weeks and still no long-term arrangement.  While the
 2     bureaucrats at the CBC tried to determine a fee, the
 3     idea withered and died on the vine.
 4  1332                 In my opinion, the CBC, with its huge
 5     annual allotment from the Canadian taxpayer, should
 6     concentrate on broad national issues and stay away from
 7     trying to provide local service.  At the very best,
 8     today they scratch the surface in the top eight or nine
 9     metropolitan markets with their local attempts, and in
10     the process still leave out most Canadians.
11  1333                 Private broadcasters can readily do
12     the local service much better.  They are flexible,
13     mobile, while the CBC is rigid, inflexible and moves
14     with the speed of molasses.
15  1334                 I think in a few years much of the
16     overstaffing at the CBC may have been rectified through
17     lay offs, retirement and attrition, as a new leaner CBC
18     could provide a truly national Canadian service without
19     further assistance from the taxpayer.
20  1335                 I agree with many of the people that
21     have been speaking here tonight.  The CBC is unique and
22     they can provide a national service that local
23     broadcasters cannot provide.  They can provide time for
24     drama, for arts, and for a lot of other similar
25     programs that the private broadcasters don't have the


 1     budgets to even start to do.  But the CBC can do that
 2     and I maintain they should do more of that and not try
 3     to be local because they can't be both.
 4  1336                 The mood of the country seems to be
 5     "No more money for the CBC from the public purse."  I
 6     think if we, the private broadcasters and the CBC, work
 7     together Canada will be even better served than it is
 8     at the present time.
 9  1337                 Thank you.
10  1338                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
11     Mr. Hildebrand.
12  1339                 Mr. Secretary.
13  1340                 MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
14                                                        2056
15  1341                 Dr. Edward Lewis.
17  1342                 DR. LEWIS:  Thank you.
18  1343                 Madam Chairperson, Members of the
19     CRTC, and members of the community, thank you very much
20     for allowing me to have the opportunity to have some
21     input in this process.
22  1344                 I am a professor of music at the
23     University of Regina.  The doctor part is a Ph.D. in
24     performance and composition.
25  1345                 I have been listening to many views. 


 1     I would first like to say, as the circular asks, what
 2     the CBC means to me.
 3  1346                 I am an immigrant to Canada.  I have
 4     been here 26 years.  I am a Canadian citizen.  I came
 5     from the United States.  I want to say that I served in
 6     the United States Army during Vietnam and then chose to
 7     come to Canada.  Part of the reason that I chose to
 8     come to Canada was the CBC.
 9  1347                 When I heard of a country that
10     supports arts, supports artists, has the internal
11     integrity to broadcast what is not commercially viable
12     but is artistically sound, that's a place that I
13     thought I might want to live and I would want to bring
14     my family here and bring up my two daughters and my
15     wife.  That's one of the reasons that I'm here.
16  1348                 When I got to Canada in 1974, it was
17     very important for me to find, to identify a Canadian
18     cultural identity.  I have to tell you I did a lot of
19     searching.
20  1349                 I went to the movies.  I saw a
21     Canadian movie.  It certainly wasn't something that I
22     would say would be a Canadian identity.  It was a cops
23     and robbers movie copied after a typical cops and
24     robbers movie.  I went to some plays.  They were all
25     stuff from the U.S.


 1  1350                 Where I found a distinct and unique
 2     Canadian identity was CBC Radio.  I found Canadian
 3     humour.  I found a Canadian view of looking at things. 
 4     It's very different than the United States and anywhere
 5     else I have been.  I found that the CBC itself, with no
 6     advertising, was so great because I was listening to
 7     Canada.  I could hear viewpoints from all over the
 8     country.  I could hear local viewpoints.  I could begin
 9     to understand how Canadians think and what Canada is
10     because of CBC Radio.
11  1351                 So I have to say that CBC Radio is
12     and was very important to me.
13  1352                 In my field, in music, when I first
14     got here, I had no idea what the rest of the country
15     was doing.  I have a Masters from Julliard, a Bachelors
16     from Eastman, and a Ph.D. from NYU.  I was primarily
17     classically trained but I do a lot of jazz as well, and
18     one of the things that I do is the jazz program at the
19     university.
20  1353                 In 1975 I saw a CBC program that
21     covered the Canadian National Jazz Competition.  No
22     other station would have covered that because it isn't
23     commercially viable.  By seeing the winners, who
24     happened to be hombre, it inspired me to think we can
25     produce in Saskatchewan a jazz program that's


 1     competitive with the east and with the west.  We did
 2     and we won the national championships two years later
 3     because of CBC television and that CBC was able to
 4     broadcast something that other channels couldn't
 5     because other channels had to make money.
 6  1354                 The birth of jazz education in
 7     Saskatchewan I can directly relate to my seeing this
 8     program on CBC.  Now we have jazz in every high school,
 9     we have jazz at both universities, we have jazz all
10     over the province.  Again, I could relate that to CBC.
11  1355                 My concern about what is going on is
12     great.  I believe that the culture of a nation is the
13     window to its essence, to its soul.  The culture, which
14     is real art, is neither readily accessible nor popular
15     with the majority of people, yet it is real art that
16     defines a society and a civilization.  It is through
17     that art that we know ancient Egypt, that we know
18     Sixteenth Century England and other countries, and I
19     would like to suggest that Sixteenth Century England
20     knew itself better because of Shakespeare's plays and
21     other art.
22  1356                 It is through art and the arts that
23     we stay in touch with our national identity and
24     national consciousness.  We know ourselves better
25     through hearing and seeing the arts.  Today only the


 1     CBC is dedicated to providing that national forum.  It
 2     is not profitable.  It cannot be done by a station that
 3     is looking to make money.  It has to be supported and
 4     its very important.
 5  1357                 I believe, therefore, it is a
 6     responsibility of the Government of Canada and the CRTC
 7     to suggest this, that there be continued and elevated
 8     support to maintain CBC so that CBC can continue to
 9     present to our nation the real art, which again is
10     neither profitable nor popular, on a mass scale in
11     which any few, if any, commercial stations would air
12     but which is necessary and important for our national
13     well being.
14  1358                 I would also like to suggest that CBC
15     TV be instructed or guided, or however you can do it,
16     to, first of all, do away with all advertising so that
17     it will have a unique identity like CBC radio, and
18     present -- and the radio as well -- all Canadian
19     programming.  Nothing from the U.S., nothing from
20     England, nothing from anywhere else.  All Canadian
21     programming.  It should not be in competition with CBS
22     and NBC.  It should provide a unique set of
23     programming, Canadian programming only, and that it not
24     compete commercially.
25  1359                 I would also like to suggest that


 1     privatizing CBC would destroy CBC.  We don't need
 2     another country or rock radio station and we don't need
 3     another commercial TV station.
 4  1360                 Thank you very much.
 5  1361                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 6     Dr. Lewis.
 7  1362                 I'm happy you clarified.  I thought
 8     that we would have medical assistance in here if
 9     anybody had a heart attack, but we don't, so at least I
10     know that.
11  1363                 Thank you.
12  1364                 Mr. Secretary.
13  1365                 MR. LAHAY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
14                                                        2105
15  1366                 Darcy McKenzie, please.
17  1367                 MR. McKENZIE:  Thank you,
18     Madam Chairperson, Members of the CRTC, for allowing us
19     this opportunity to make a presentation today.
20  1368                 Thank you to the good Dr. Lewis for
21     saving me some time and some of the comments that we
22     wanted to make.  An excellent intro for us.
23  1369                 Our presentation may differ slightly
24     from the others where we will be asking some critical
25     questions and providing some suggestions or answers to


 1     those questions which we hope will have a profound
 2     influence on these consultations and the resulting
 3     actions undertaken by the CRTC.
 4  1370                 Saskatchewan Arts Alliance is an
 5     inclusive, member-driven coalition of arts
 6     organizations that provides a collective voice for the
 7     arts community of Saskatchewan.
 8  1371                 Established in 1984, the Arts
 9     Alliance seeks to strengthen, support and advance the
10     arts through advocacy and policy development.  The SAA
11     represents the position of the arts community to
12     government, funding agencies and the public as needed. 
13     The needs of individual artists are central to the
14     considerations of the Sask Arts Alliance.
15                            "In your view, how well does the
16                            CBC fulfil its role as the
17                            national public broadcaster?  In
18                            the new millennium, should the
19                            CBC fulfil its role in a
20                            different manner than it has in
21                            the past?"
22  1372                 I think the answer to the question is
23     both.  Our suggestion is that the CBC should improve on
24     its past success, and I don't mean cheaper, I mean more
25     resources with a definitive plan developed with real


 1     and meaningful input from the communities in which it
 2     serves.
 3                            "How well does the CBC serve the
 4                            public on a regional as well as
 5                            at a national level?"
 6  1373                 On a regional level, the CBC in the
 7     past has had a significant impact on the development of
 8     Saskatchewan's artists, especially in the literary and
 9     performing arts and the cultural industries.  The CBC
10     provided opportunities for freelancers, writers, visual
11     artists and performers to work, and it nurtured our
12     artists by providing workshops so that they can gain
13     work.  The CBC produced original Saskatchewan
14     productions that tell our stories and cover our
15     artists.
16  1374                 Beyond our artists, the CBC responded
17     to local needs through its regional programs.  For
18     example, on one of the CBC Radio morning programs
19     visual artists raised money for the food bank by
20     donating their artworks that were auctioned on the
21     show.  This would not have occurred if there were no
22     windows for regional programming.  The visual artists
23     auctioned for the food bank.  I understand that the
24     program is now being taken up by CBC in other provinces
25     such as New Brunswick and possibly British Columbia.


 1  1375                 In the past few years there has been
 2     a withdrawal of regional resources in the CBC, such as
 3     staff positions, producers, story editors, just to
 4     mention a few.  As a former CBC journalist, I can
 5     attest to that.  The result is programming originating
 6     from Saskatchewan has been reduced and opportunities
 7     have diminished for our artists to work and develop
 8     their art form.
 9  1376                 In CBC television, the withdrawal of
10     resources has correlated with a pull-back to national
11     programming and a reduction in regional airtime for
12     local productions.  When CBC television was actively
13     involved in partnering with local production companies,
14     high-quality programs were produced.  It was mentioned
15     in a previous presentation.  What's On Earth, Utopia
16     Cafe, just to mention a few, those were the programs
17     that were developed locally and presented locally with
18     a local view.
19  1377                 With the pull-back to national
20     programming, regional CBC has withdrawn as a partner in
21     our productions because CBC Saskatchewan, although it
22     continues to provide facilities, has lost the resources
23     needed to support our regional producers.  The
24     withdrawal of regional resources in radio and
25     television, the pull-back to the national TV


 1     programming and reduced airtime for regional TV
 2     programming has resulted in fewer of our stories being
 3     seen or heard.
 4  1378                 The move to national programming has
 5     left a void that is not being filled by other
 6     broadcasters nor, in our opinion, will they ever be
 7     filled.
 8                            "Should the programming provided
 9                            by CBC radio and television be
10                            different from that provided by
11                            other broadcasters?  If so, what
12                            should these differences be?"
13  1379                 Well, yes, on both counts.
14  1380                 CBC should be taking creative chances
15     at both the regional and national level.  CBC
16     programming should be discovering and nurturing new
17     talent, writers, artists and performers.  CBC has the
18     ability to take chances because it does not answer to
19     shareholders as private broadcasters do.
20                            "Is there a special role that
21                            the CBC should play in the
22                            presentation of Canadian
23                            programming?  If so, what should
24                            that role be?"
25  1381                 The CBC should be commended for its


 1     move to Canadianize its prime time weekday television
 2     schedule.  The CBC should be encouraged to continue in
 3     this direction.  The CBC should reinvest strongly in
 4     regional programming.  The CBC television should
 5     empower its regional directors to licence regional
 6     productions.  The CBC should also schedule airtime for
 7     regional television programming on a consistent basis.
 8  1382                 In closing, we recommend that the
 9     CRTC ask the CBC to address issues related to regional
10     programming and encourage the CBC, with all its
11     resources, to reinvest in regional programming
12     throughout Canada.
13  1383                 Thank you.
14  1384                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
15     Mr. McKenzie.
16  1385                 Mr. Secretary.
17                                                        2113
18  1386                 MR. LAHAY:  Alex Zypchyn, please.
20  1387                 MS ZYPCHYN:  Thank you.
21  1388                 My name is Alex Zypchyn and I'm here
22     on behalf -- not on behalf -- I'm here for my daughter
23     to speak for her, okay?  She was unable to make it. 
24     She is up in Saskatoon working.
25  1389                 She has written this up completely on


 1     here own, okay?
 2  1390                 She starts off by:
 3                            "My name is Karyn Zypchyn.  I am
 4                            30 years old and a former CBC
 5                            radio reporter who spent over
 6                            four years working at the public
 7                            broadcaster.  My background
 8                            includes a Master's degree in
 9                            Journalism from the University
10                            of Western Ontario, and a
11                            Master's degree in History.  I
12                            am also bilingual and have done
13                            reports in French for
14                            Radio-Canada.  When I learned
15                            the CRTC wanted to hear from
16                            people on how they think the CBC
17                            is serving Canadians, I knew
18                            this would be the appropriate
19                            forum to tell my story.  I come
20                            forward tonight to tell you that
21                            there is one group of Canadians
22                            the CBC is not always serving. 
23                            That group is the people who
24                            work for the CBC.  I come to you
25                            of my own accord, without


 1                            influence from the current
 2                            labour dispute at the CBC.  In
 3                            fact, I quit the CBC almost a
 4                            year ago because of the story I
 5                            am about to tell you.  It's a
 6                            story of disappointment in the
 7                            lack of leadership and vision at
 8                            the CBC, and disappointment in
 9                            the negative politics that
10                            survive in that organization. 
11                            In my opinion, the lack of
12                            leadership in combination with
13                            negative politics creates a
14                            situation that risks
15                            compromising the journalistic
16                            service provided to Canadians
17                            through news and current
18                            affairs.  Ultimately, the use of
19                            taxpayers dollars to support
20                            such a system is called into
21                            question.  First let me paint a
22                            picture of my hopes and
23                            aspirations in joining the CBC. 
24                            When I graduated from journalism
25                            school in 1994, I eagerly went


 1                            to CBC Sudbury to start my
 2                            career in journalism as a casual
 3                            fill-in reporter.  I came to the
 4                            CBC with the utmost respect for
 5                            the work of the CBC, and
 6                            religiously learned the policy
 7                            and mandate of the Corporation
 8                            so that I could do my best to
 9                            serve Canadians in a
10                            professional manner.  I believed
11                            in the mandate of the CBC and
12                            felt privileged to be one of the
13                            reporters filing stories to
14                            regional, provincial and
15                            national networks.  In short, I
16                            was proud to be a CBC reporter
17                            and felt my work deeply
18                            connected me to my identity
19                            being a Canadian.  I had all the
20                            enthusiasm, optimism and
21                            aspiration expected of a new
22                            graduate to create a career for
23                            myself in the CBC.  I knew I had
24                            the talent and the skills to go
25                            far, and set myself upon my


 1                            journey.  Upon starting my work,
 2                            I immediately found a good
 3                            national story equivalent to the
 4                            seriousness of the breast
 5                            implant controversy.  Ten months
 6                            later, and at a time when the
 7                            CBC was cutting back staff, I
 8                            got promoted to ... a staff
 9                            reporter in Yellowknife.  I
10                            spent almost three years there,
11                            covering many stories on such
12                            topics as aboriginal issues,
13                            environmental concerns and
14                            northern politics.  I filed
15                            regularly to the national
16                            network and was heard many times
17                            across Canada.  People seemed to
18                            appreciate my work at the
19                            national level and they
20                            supported my efforts, my
21                            considerable overtime pay
22                            attesting to their financial
23                            support.  However, getting
24                            support locally to file my
25                            national stories was another


 1                            story.  That's when I began to
 2                            question what was going on at
 3                            the CBC.  I was baffled:  I had
 4                            been hired to file both regional
 5                            and national stories from the
 6                            North.  Yet, I was told locally
 7                            that `national' could get their
 8                            own reporter to do stories on
 9                            the North.  My priority, I was
10                            told, was filing at least 2
11                            stories a day for the regional
12                            newscast.  Even when I arranged
13                            for back fill pay for me to do a
14                            national documentary project, I
15                            faced grumblings locally about
16                            my efforts.  In this way, I
17                            witnessed first-hand tension
18                            between the national network and
19                            its regions.  Had I not filed my
20                            national stories on my own time
21                            and on overtime, after putting
22                            in a 9 to 10 hour day to gather
23                            regional news, many stories on
24                            the North would not have reached
25                            Canadians in southern Canada.  I


 1                            spent many a night working late
 2                            because of a lack of cooperation
 3                            between the region and national
 4                            headquarters.  Had support for
 5                            my national stories been given
 6                            more regularly at a local level,
 7                            I could have provided the same
 8                            service for less taxpayer's
 9                            money, and more [efficiency] for
10                            my time and the Corporation's
11                            time [as well].  After spending
12                            almost 3 years in the North, I
13                            decided it was time to advance
14                            my career by moving south. 
15                            Because of slow movement within
16                            the CBC, not many jobs were
17                            becoming available.  I therefore
18                            quit my staff status to advance
19                            my career by coming to CBC
20                            Saskatchewan in Regina and
21                            taking on a short-term contract
22                            for 4 months.  That move did
23                            anything but advance my career. 
24                            In fact, it brought it to an
25                            end, as I will explain.  I


 1                            started at CBC Saskatchewan on
 2                            January 1998.  I immediately
 3                            noticed two things in the
 4                            workplace that raised concerns
 5                            on my part.  First, a poster on
 6                            a post in the newsroom depicting
 7                            several scantily clad women in
 8                            bathing suits encircling a man
 9                            standing in the middle of
10                            them ... The man's face had been
11                            superimposed with an image of
12                            the face of one of the male
13                            on-air personalities.  I found
14                            the poster to be sexist and
15                            distasteful.  I thought to
16                            myself that I would be
17                            embarrassed if a member of the
18                            public came through the newsroom
19                            and saw that poster. 
20                            Furthermore, I suspected many
21                            taxpayers and CBC listeners
22                            would not approve of their money
23                            being spent on a workplace that
24                            allows such a poster to be
25                            pinned up.  Second, I


 1                            immediately noticed a situation
 2                            on the news and current affairs
 3                            floor that raised concerns about
 4                            conflict of interest.  A husband
 5                            and wife team were working on
 6                            the same floor.  I had to report
 7                            to her husband, and so did she,
 8                            hence my concern about conflict
 9                            of interest.  An issue came up
10                            one day, with the wife attacking
11                            me and my professionalism, which
12                            I found to be completely
13                            unfounded and unnecessary. 
14                            Following our encounter, her
15                            husband told me my story I was
16                            producing under his wife would
17                            not go to air.  That despite the
18                            fact that I had spent two days
19                            on overtime to cover my current
20                            affairs story, and despite the
21                            fact that my story was good.  I
22                            wondered about how
23                            unprofessional the CBC would
24                            appear to the hundred people who
25                            were at the conference I covered


 1                            for my story, when the story was
 2                            absent from the airwaves.  I
 3                            later approached the wife to
 4                            clarify something, and she said
 5                            my story was good, so they would
 6                            run it after all.  The husband
 7                            didn't know she had made that
 8                            decision so when I told him I
 9                            was preparing my story to go to
10                            air, he told me again it wasn't
11                            going to air.  The confusion was
12                            finally settled, and my nerves
13                            put to ease when the final
14                            decision came that my story
15                            would go to air.  In this way,
16                            and in my opinion, negative
17                            politics almost prevented a good
18                            story about the public from
19                            going to air.  I questioned how
20                            refusing to air my story would
21                            have served the Canadian public. 
22                            Things only got progressively
23                            worse at CBC Saskatchewan, and
24                            it became evident to me that
25                            people were working against me. 


 1                            They attacked my ability to do
 2                            stories, something I had never
 3                            encountered in my career up to
 4                            that point.  As a result I quit. 
 5                            Shortly after that, I was asked
 6                            to do some work for the French
 7                            people at Radio-Canada
 8                            Saskatchewan, across the way
 9                            from the English newsroom I had
10                            just left.  They had no concerns
11                            about my journalistic ability to
12                            do stories.  In this way, I quit
13                            the public broadcaster,
14                            disappointed in the end that my
15                            career had come to after all the
16                            time and education I had put
17                            into getting myself to the CBC. 
18                            By this point, I had lost much
19                            of my respect for the
20                            Corporation, and the enthusiasm,
21                            optimism and aspirations I had
22                            for continuing a career in one
23                            of Canada's major cultural
24                            organizations fell by the
25                            wayside.  As a taxpayer, I am


 1                            concerned that my money is going
 2                            to a system that works in ways I
 3                            have described, ways which I
 4                            believe can jeopardize efforts
 5                            to inform the public about
 6                            events and situations in their
 7                            communities and around the
 8                            world.  That system lacks
 9                            leadership.  Without this needed
10                            leadership, politics survive and
11                            thrive, and they drive many of
12                            the decisions being made at CBC. 
13                            Accountability and good and just
14                            management is needed to lead the
15                            CBC into the 21st century. 
16                            Before I end, let this be clear: 
17                            I still am committed to the
18                            mandate of the CBC, and I
19                            believe passionately in public
20                            broadcasting.  Many journalists
21                            at the CBC are professional and
22                            they work hard to serve the
23                            Canadian public, journalists
24                            like David McLauchlin and Joan
25                            Leischman.  I can only wonder


 1                            what they have had to endure
 2                            throughout their careers to
 3                            produce stories, stories
 4                            Canadians rely on to be
 5                            informed."
 6  1391                 At this point, I would also like to
 7     make a comment that my daughter had made to me and I do
 8     not know if she would like me to say this or not, but
 9     she had sent these out to several people, several
10     people that are high in the CBC organization and have
11     been with them for a long time.
12  1392                 The one remark, not naming any names
13     was said:
14                            "You have guts little lady, but
15                            don't ever expect to work for
16                            CBC again."  (As read)
17  1393                 I feel sorry if that's the attitude
18     of the people at CBC.  They are supposed to be
19     well-educated individuals.  I am not.  This to me shows
20     a dishonour to people who go out, get an education and
21     get slapped in the face.
22  1394                 Thank you.
23  1395                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
24     Ms Zypchyn.
25  1396                 Mr. Secretary.


 1  1397                 MR. LAHAY:  Madam Chair, thank you.
 2                                                        2120
 3  1398                 Cathy Currey.
 5  1399                 MS CURREY:  Good evening,
 6     Madam Chairperson, visitors, former -- pardon me, not
 7     former -- round table participants here, and ladies and
 8     gentlemen.
 9  1400                 Being number 25 on the program here,
10     I expect I'm the last speaker, although I understand
11     that you were taking a few other people when I spoke to
12     the national people.  That may or may not be the case.
13  1401                 Presuming I'm the end, I'm very happy
14     to bring up the end in many different ways.  Hearing
15     your story just now, it's a very painful reminder about
16     the difficulties, the concerns that we as ordinary
17     Canadians have with CBC that we love.
18  1402                 I have grown up with CBC and I'm sure
19     a number of people who are in this room today have
20     grown up with the CBC or have been introduced to CBC
21     from afar.  In some of my vindictive moments, I am glad
22     that we have the power of CBC to trap people from the
23     American south, to be able to look forward, and here is
24     living proof of when to capture them.  I think that's
25     one of our successes that probably CBC doesn't chalk up


 1     in their scorecard, but you know it would be a very
 2     interesting record to keep.
 3  1403                 We have a lot of people that do
 4     listen to Canadian programming that are not Canadian,
 5     and that's from around the world.  I speak from having
 6     lived around the world, in other locations as well. 
 7     But, we, particularly in Regina, if you are not
 8     familiar with Regina, have a broad hearing range all
 9     the way to portions of British Columbia, far north,
10     down into the mid states and eastern Canada.
11  1404                 I'm speaking for a group of people
12     who cannot hear CBC radio, and those are people sitting
13     here in Regina.  It is a crime.  So while I want to
14     speak about what CBC means to all of us, at the end of
15     tonight's program what I will do is I will present to
16     you a petition that is just done very, very quickly
17     without a lot of planning.  It is a statement by Regina
18     people about how important it is for Regina people, the
19     entire city of Regina, to have access to CBC
20     programming.
21  1405                 You have heard about the vitality and
22     the nature and the skill, the craft with which we show
23     our art, and yet it is not reaching a significant
24     portion of our second largest city and the capital of
25     our province.  We should all be able to tap into that


 1     resource.  Right now, just with the nature of the
 2     telecommunications media, a number of people in the
 3     City of Regina are not eligible to receive that.  So
 4     the upshot of this is that, although this is not the
 5     hearing to present it, CBC will be applying for an FM
 6     licence to retransmit its AM programming on the FM dial
 7     solely for the Regina area so that people in the centre
 8     of the city that cannot currently receive CBC AM
 9     programming are able to get it on an FM channel.
10  1406                 So this is a double whammy
11     application for you.  It's a buttress of support for
12     that application that I would hope that you would carry
13     forward to the other applications when they come
14     forward.  I believe that is happening in May with the
15     FM licence approvals that come up or are repeated very
16     often.  So if you will just apply this to the long-term
17     nature.
18  1407                 I would like to just speak for a
19     number of people.  Certainly, we have -- well, my
20     counterpart to my left, who was an associate of private
21     business, certainly industry, education programming.  I
22     speak in terms of the general public.  The competition
23     comes from a number of retired people.  It also comes
24     from self-employed people.
25  1408                 I am in that category and I have a


 1     home-based business.  Particularly, when we are doing
 2     home-based businesses, we are working day, we are
 3     working night.  We work out in public, with the public,
 4     but our touchstone with what is going on in the broader
 5     community, it is very often through CBC radio.  It is
 6     important.  It's a vital source for communication and
 7     information for us, and it keeps our minds active when
 8     we are doing mundane day-to-day activities.
 9  1409                 Regardless of our ages, CBC radio
10     engages us, keeps ours minds active and participating
11     as active members in our community.  I like to think
12     that those are the kinds of things that lead to strong
13     community leadership at times in the future for us.
14  1410                 While I introduce to you tonight this
15     petition, what I'm really wanting to say to you, too,
16     is it is so important for us to maintain the essence
17     and the vitality of CBC radio.  Commercial radio has
18     its place, but it is such a shame that it is allowed to
19     saturate our minds with tripe and pap.  There is
20     nothing to it.  I get very, very nervous if we do not
21     challenge our young minds, to make them inquiring
22     minds, questioning minds, and strong minds for
23     leadership in the future.
24  1411                 If all we allow is commercial radio,
25     commercial television in our communities, then we have


 1     a very, very difficult future ahead of us.  We need to
 2     be broader, to have bigger visions, and to allow
 3     ourselves to dream and have philosophies to guide our
 4     lives by.  That's what CBC radio can allow us to do and
 5     to join us as communities of communities to do that.
 6  1412                 So what I will do, I will make one
 7     public appeal to anyone else who is here tonight who
 8     has not had a chance to sign the petition, if you would
 9     like to add your name to that, please.  It will be
10     filed with the CRTC, as you see that tonight.
11  1413                 Just in closing, then, I would like
12     to say thank you for having the courage to come out to
13     rural Canada and see us.  It is so easy for us to
14     presume that sitting out east, either in Ottawa or
15     Toronto or Montreal, you are dealing with the suits and
16     the politics and you forget about rural Canada.  You
17     can see we are a vital force and we are a strong force. 
18     I think you need to see that.
19  1414                 It's a pleasure to have you here and
20     welcome you, and please represent us well when you have
21     to make strong statements.  We are a vital community. 
22     Locally, our broadcasters here like to talk about
23     Toronto as the centre of the universe and of course we
24     know that's in satire.  We are not so sure they do.  We
25     will let you in on a little secret:  it's a trick.


 1  1415                 So please speak for us on our behalf,
 2     represent us strongly and you are a vital, vital
 3     connection to what makes Canada a true place for us all
 4     to live.
 5  1416                 Thank you.
 6  1417                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 7     Ms Currey.
 8  1418                 For your information, I'm from rural
 9     Canada.  I live here and my colleagues, I hope, will
10     find me to be a vital and strong force, and some of
11     them may be afraid of that.
12  1419                 In any event, that is the end of the
13     presenters.
14  1420                 As I have stated before, CBC has a
15     right of rebuttal.  I understand that you are prepared
16     now.  Is that correct?
17  1421                 I'm sorry, I don't know your name, so
18     if you could say your name.
19                                                        2131
20  1422                 Thank you.
22  1423                 M. BONNEVILLE:  Madame la Présidente
23     Cram, Madame la Commissaire Wylie, je m'appelle Lionel
24     Bonneville et je suis le directeur de la télévision
25     française de Radio-Canada dans l'ouest.


 1  1424                 I am also representing English
 2     television in Saskatchewan.  My colleague Jane Chalmers
 3     unfortunately had to attend to an urgent family matter
 4     and she regrets very much that she couldn't be here
 5     this evening.  However, our other colleagues were here
 6     today:  Bill White, who is the Director of English
 7     Radio for Saskatchewan; and René Fontaine who is my
 8     colleague in French radio for the prairies.
 9  1425                 As my colleagues said earlier today,
10     our purpose here today was really to listen.  We heard
11     much that was positive and that was very heartening;
12     and we heard some thoughtful, constructive criticism,
13     and we will have to give that some careful thought on
14     our part; and there were many solutions and
15     recommendations advanced.
16  1426                 It would be impossible and I would
17     say even irresponsible of me to start responding to
18     those issues tonight.  There were some very important
19     issues that were raised.  I just want to assure every
20     presenter today that the issues will not be ignored. 
21     We will deal with them in two ways.  They will be dealt
22     with at the licence renewals later this spring before
23     the CRTC, and as well we will be responding
24     individually to every person that made a presentation.
25  1427                 In the meantime, I would like to


 1     express our gratitude on behalf of my colleagues to say
 2     how grateful we are that people took all that time and
 3     effort to respond to the CRTC's call to come and speak
 4     out about the CBC.  I think it is important for us to
 5     hear those voices.  Some people put a lot of time and
 6     effort in that and indeed drove many kilometres on
 7     winter roads to do it, so we are very happy about that.
 8  1428                 Quelque mots en français pour
 9     remercier tout spécialement les gens qui ont fait des
10     interventions traitant spécifiquement des médias
11     français en Saskatchewan.  Je pense que c'est aussi
12     important pour nous de la télévision et la radio
13     française d'entendre ces voix-là que ce l'est du côté
14     anglais et peut-être plus parce que nous avons une
15     responsabilité spéciale en milieu minoritaire de rendre
16     un bon service à la communauté.  Alors, je remercie
17     aussi tous ces gens-là qui ont fait cet effort-là.
18  1429                 Thank you very much.  It has been a
19     long day.  I think we will leave it at that for
20     tonight.
21  1430                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
22  1431                 I want to thank each and every one of
23     you.  Thank you.
24     --- Whereupon the hearing concluded at 2131/
25         L'audience se termine à 2131

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