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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES SUBJECT / SUJET: PUBLIC CONSULTATION ON THE CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION (CBC)/ CONSULTATIONS PUBLIQUES SUR LA SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC) HELD AT: TENUE À: Four Points Hotel Hôtel Four Points Room Georgian B & C Salle Georgian B & C 1696 Regent Street South 1696, rue Regent Sud Sudbury, Ontario Sudbury, Ontario March 16, 1999 Le 16 mars 1999 tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668 Transcripts In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of Contents. However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the public hearing. Transcription Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience publique ainsi que la table des matières. Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l'audience publique. StenoTran Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des télécommunications canadiennes Transcript / Transcription Public Hearing / Audience publique PUBLIC CONSULTATION ON THE CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION (CBC)/ CONSULTATIONS PUBLIQUES SUR LA SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC) BEFORE / DEVANT: Joan Pennefather Chairperson / Présidente Barbara Cram Commissioner / Commissioner ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS: Donald Rhéaume Commission Counsel / Avocat du Conseil Rod Lahay Broadcasting Planning Services / Service de la planification de la radiodiffusion HELD AT: TENUE À: Four Points Hotel Hôtel Four Points Room Georgian A & B Salle Georgian A & B 1696 Regent Street South 1696, rue Regent Sud Sudbury, Ontario Sudbury, Ontario March 16, 1999 Le 16 mars 1999 StenoTran ii TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES PAGE Presentation by / Présentation par: Mr. J.A.L. Robertson 8 Mr. David Hogg 17 Mr. Paul Sauvé 25 Mrs. Betty Cajanek 34 Mr. Tom Gerry 40 Mr. Charlie Smith 45 Ms Daryl Shandro 50 Ms Marian Gilmour 59 Ms Liz Campbell 68 Mr. John Lindsay 70 Ms Eveline St-Denis 77 Mr. William Scoffield 82 Mrs. Janna Ramsay Best 96 Mr. Steve Dodson 108 Mr. Jean Charron / Mrs. Pamela Charron 118 Ms Patricia Hatala 124 Mr. Alex MacGregor 130 Mr. Mark Laing 136 Mr. Georges Linsey 150 StenoTran iii TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES PAGE Presentation by / Présentation par: Mr. Bill Oja 153 Mr. Richard Destefano 155 Mr. Karl Skierszkan 170 Mr. Ronald Brisebois 175 Mr. Walter Halchuk 178 Ms Jami van Haaften 189 Mr. Paul Reid 195 Mr. Alan Jennings 200 Mr. Leoonard Ouellette 207 Reply by: / Réplique par: Ms Mariam Fry 142 Mr. Bruce Taylor 193 StenoTran 1 1 Sudbury, Ontario / Sudbury (Ontario) 2 --- Upon commencing on Tuesday, March 16, 1999 3 at 1310 / L'audience reprend le mardi 4 16 mars 1999, à 1310 5 1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ladies and 6 gentlemen, I think we will get under way. 7 2 Bonjour, mesdames et messieurs et 8 bienvenue à cette consultation publique. 9 3 Mon nom est Joan Pennefather. 10 Permettez-moi de vous présenter ma collègue, 11 Mme Barbara Cram. Nous sommes toutes deux conseillères 12 auprès du CRTC. 13 4 My name is Joan Pennefather. With me 14 today is my colleague Barbara Cram. We are both 15 Commissioners at the CRTC. 16 5 Nous sommes ici pour requérir vos 17 points de vue et vos commentaires sur la radio et la 18 télévision de Radio-Canada. Comment croyez-vous que la 19 SRC devrait remplir son rôle dans les années à venir? 20 Voilà le genre de question auquel nous voulons entendre 21 vos réponses. 22 6 The CBC is a national public service, 23 broadcasting in English as well as in French. It plays 24 an important role in the Canadian broadcasting system. 25 Today, many elements are constantly being added to the StenoTran 2 1 broadcasting system as new technologies multiply, 2 converge, open up new horizons, and increasingly offer 3 new services. 4 7 In this context we want to know what 5 are your needs and expectations as viewers and as 6 listeners of the CBC. 7 8 Il est donc très important pour le 8 Conseil d'entendre ce que vous avez à dire à ce sujet. 9 Il ne faut pas oublier que le CRTC est un organisme 10 public au service des citoyens et citoyennes. À ce 11 titre, il a une responsabilité envers eux. 12 9 C'est pourquoi mes collègues 13 conseillers et moi-même trouvons essentiel de venir 14 vous rencontrer. Nous sommes donc présents dans onze 15 villes canadiennes du 9 au 18 mars inclusivement pour 16 tenir cette série de consultations régionales d'un bout 17 à l'autre du pays. 18 10 Again, it is very important that the 19 Commission hears what you have to say. We must not 20 lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public 21 organization that serves Canadian citizens. In this 22 capacity, we are responsible to you. This is why my 23 fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to come 24 and meet with you to discuss these issues and why we 25 are holding this series of regional consultations from StenoTran 3 1 one end of the country to the other, in 11 Canadian 2 cities, from March 9th to March 18th. 3 11 These consultations are designed to 4 give you a chance, on the eve of the new millennium, to 5 express your opinion on the CBC's role, the programming 6 it offers and the direction it should take at the 7 national, regional and local levels. 8 12 Through these consultations we hope 9 to enter into an open dialogue with you and hear your 10 concerns. 11 13 Ladies and gentlemen, your comments 12 will form part of the public record which will be added 13 to the record of the public hearing on the CBC that 14 will begin in Hull next May 25th. At this upcoming 15 hearing the Commission will examine the CBC's 16 application for the renewal of its licences, including 17 radio, television and its specialty services, Newsworld 18 and Réseau de l'information. 19 14 You can also take part in that public 20 hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 21 If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the 22 specific licence renewals being examined when you file 23 your comments. 24 15 Tous vos commentaires aujourd'hui 25 feront partie du dossier public. Il sera lui-même StenoTran 4 1 ajouté à celui de l'audience publique qui s'ouvrira à 2 Hull le 25 mai prochain. 3 16 C'est au cours de cette audience que 4 notre Conseil étudiera les demandes pour renouveler les 5 licences de radio et de télévision de la SRC ainsi que 6 ses services spécialisés, RDI et Newsworld. 7 17 Vous pouvez aussi participé à cette 8 audience en faisant parvenir une intervention écrite au 9 CRTC. Vos observations devront alors porter 10 spécifiquement sur le renouvellement des licences en 11 question. 12 18 Now I would like to come to today's 13 consultations and talk to you about how we are 14 organized throughout this afternoon and this evening. 15 19 First of all, it is my pleasure to 16 introduce the CRTC staff here today who will be 17 assisting us. 18 20 Donald Rhéaume is our legal counsel; 19 and Rod Lahay -- both gentlemen sitting here to my 20 right -- is from our Broadcasting Planning Service. 21 21 Please feel free to call on them with 22 any questions you might have about the process today, 23 or any other matter, including any questions on my 24 remarks. 25 22 So that you will all have an StenoTran 5 1 opportunity to speak, we would ask that you please 2 limit your presentation to ten minutes. I have a small 3 but effective watch, and we will try to keep within 4 that timeframe, but hopefully allowing you to express 5 fully your point of view at the same time. 6 23 As these consultations are a forum 7 designed especially for you and we want to listen to as 8 many participants as possible, we -- Madam Cram and 9 myself and the staff -- will not ask any questions 10 unless we need clarification. 11 24 We will go through our whole list 12 timed for this afternoon, hopefully to be finished by 13 5:00; but please be assured that if you are scheduled 14 for this afternoon, we will continue until you have 15 been heard. 16 25 At the end of this session, 17 representatives from the local CBC stations will have a 18 chance to offer their views, as they are naturally very 19 interested in the issues we are discussing here today. 20 26 Pour que vous ayez tous l'occasion de 21 vous faire entendre, nous vous demandons de limiter 22 votre présentation à 10 minutes. Ces consultations 23 sont votre tribune à vous et nous voulons être à 24 l'écoute du plus grand nombre possible d'intervenants. 25 Nous ne poserons donc pas de question, sauf si nous StenoTran 6 1 avons besoin de clarification. 2 27 Après vos interventions, les 3 représentants des stations locales de Radio-Canada 4 auront également droit de parole puisque ce sont les 5 premières intéressées par les questions que nous 6 abordons aujourd'hui. 7 28 Just before we begin, then, I am 8 going to turn the mic over to Mr. Lahay to describe to 9 you in a little more detail some housekeeping matters 10 and how the process will work this afternoon. 11 29 Rod. 12 30 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 13 31 I would like to go over a few 14 housekeeping items this afternoon which are designed 15 for everybody's attention, and which will make this 16 process run a little smoother. 17 32 We will be calling the presenters 18 today in groups of ten. We will do ten people at a 19 time. I will go over the names of the first ten, and 20 as you are called you will be presented in that order. 21 33 I would ask you to give your speech 22 in ten minutes, as suggested, please, and try to stick 23 with that timeframe. It will make it much easier for 24 everybody to finish on time. 25 34 We will be calling breaks this StenoTran 7 1 afternoon. Madam Chair will announce them at the 2 appropriate time. 3 35 We have translation service over 4 here. If you are in need of English or French, please 5 feel free to go to them; but be prepared to present 6 some identification in order to receive your device. 7 36 For the first ten we will start with 8 Mr. J.A.L. Robertson. 9 37 As I call your name, please feel free 10 to come forward and sit around the table. 11 38 Mrs. Catherine Meyer; Ms Rosemary 12 Connell; David Hogg; Paul Sauvé; Mrs. Betty Cajanek; 13 Tom Gerry; Mr. Charlie Smith; Daryl Shandra; and Marian 14 Gilmour. 15 39 Please come forward and we will start 16 with Mr. Robertson. 17 40 When you start your presentation, 18 will you please give your name for the transcripts and 19 the court reporter, so we will know who is actually 20 making the comments. 21 41 Thank you. 22 1312 23 42 THE CHAIRPERSON: Whenever you are 24 ready, Mr. Robertson. 25 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION StenoTran 8 1 43 MR. ROBERTSON: Madam, my purpose is 2 to provide the CRTC with evidence of persistent bias 3 against nuclear energy by the CBC, to analyze the forms 4 taken by this bias, to suggest possible root causes, 5 and to recommend remedial measures. That is why the 6 submission is entitled "To Air is To Err". 7 44 The relevance to the CRTC of this 8 submission on a single issue is that there is evidence 9 that the bias may be much more widespread, extending to 10 industry and elsewhere. 11 45 I recognize that there is much that 12 is still good in CBC programming and do not wish to 13 destroy a once respected Canadian heritage. I come 14 neither to praise or to bury CBCers. I hope that this 15 submission may help the CBC restore its credibility and 16 re-earn the trust of a large segment of the Canadian 17 public. the CBC's mandate is to unite Canadians; 18 satanizing the nuclear industry and other sectors of 19 society is divisive. 20 46 The 32-page printed version documents 21 evidence of systemic anti-nuclear bias exhibited by the 22 CBC. Three major observations jump out from the 23 evidence: 24 47 1. The staggering number of 25 instances of insidious and invidious bias. StenoTran 9 1 48 2. The fact that these have 2 persisted for a quarter of a century. 3 49 3. The failure by members of the 4 public to obtain redress through all available 5 channels. 6 50 I analyzed the evidence into six 7 categories: 8 51 1. Simple falsehoods, which are 9 relatively infrequent. 10 52 About equally responsible for the 11 bulk of the evidence are the next three: 12 53 2. Misleading statements, 13 distortions, unfounded allegations and opinions stated 14 as fact. 15 54 3. Selectivity, particularly in the 16 choice of those interviewed and in the time accorded 17 them. 18 55 4. Prejudicial behaviour of program 19 hosts. 20 56 The two other, though less frequent, 21 are more serious: 22 57 5. The long-standing practice of the 23 CBC to allow staff with allegiance to anti-nuclear 24 organizations to participate in the production and 25 presentation of programs on this issue. StenoTran 10 1 58 6. The exploitation of psychological 2 means that create anti-nuclear impressions in the 3 audience, such as docudramas, eerie music, clips of a 4 mushroom cloud to illustrate programs on peaceful 5 nuclear energy and other forms of scare-mongering. 6 59 The analysis includes instances of 7 the CRTC failing to correct such abuses when they were 8 brought to its attention. 9 60 In seeking root causes of this bias 10 against nuclear energy, I suggest that much of it can 11 be assigned to ignorance rather than malice. The media 12 in general, and the CBC in particular, are mainly drawn 13 from the liberal arts community, one often antipathetic 14 if not antagonistic to industry and technology. As 15 such, they are susceptible to claims by well-organized 16 anti-nuclear groups, and unqualified, through lack of 17 mathematical and scientific training, to challenge 18 them. 19 61 Many of those now controlling the 20 media were brought up in the 1960s, uncritically 21 importing the U.S.'s anti-military, anti-police, anti- 22 establishment attitudes that were sometimes appropriate 23 there, but not in Canada. A generally low standard of 24 media ethics, characterized by "the end justifies the 25 means", contributes: if the producers and hosts StenoTran 11 1 believe that nuclear energy is evil, then they can 2 convince themselves that they should expose this to 3 their audiences. "Watergate-envy" leads them to 4 present anything they learn as an expose, and to find 5 conspiracies where none exists. 6 62 Much less defensible is the 7 concealment of a conflict of interest on the part of 8 producers and hosts. I doubt that people watching a 9 "The Nature of Things" program on nuclear energy 10 realize that the CRTC has stated that "the Television 11 Broadcasting Regulations, which prohibit the broadcast 12 of false or misleading news, does not apply to a 13 program like (this)", or that the host, David Suzuki, 14 was on the board of directors of the leading anti- 15 nuclear organization. Max Allen, producer of another 16 anti-nuclear program, was also a member of that 17 organization. 18 63 If the CBC is aware of this bias, it 19 is in violation of its own "Journalistic Policy"; if 20 not, it is not competent to provide programming on this 21 issue, despite its avowed intention to provide 22 "enlightenment". 23 64 Either way, it is presumably in 24 violation of the Broadcasting Act that requires that 25 "programming...be of a high standard". It is StenoTran 12 1 journalism like this that gives libel chill a good 2 name. 3 65 I allege bias on the part of the CBC 4 in its treatment of nuclear energy. The CBC has denied 5 this and has assured the CRTC in writing that it 6 monitors for bias. (See Appendix 2 of the written 7 version for relevant correspondence.) 8 66 There is a simple means of resolving 9 this conflict. The CRTC should require the CBC to 10 table at these hearings the results of its monitoring, 11 so that the CRTC and the public may adjudicate between 12 the CBC's claims and mine. 13 67 Most of my other recommendations are 14 couched in terms applicable to all controversial 15 issues, not just nuclear energy. 16 68 The CRTC should require the CBC to: 17 69 (1) recognize and acknowledge bias by 18 the CRTC in its treatment of nuclear energy; 19 70 (2) enforce existing policies; 20 71 (3) eliminate from these policies 21 exemptions for contract staff and for "documentaries"; 22 72 (4) exclude from the production and 23 presentation of a program on an issue of public concern 24 anyone who has taken a public stance on that issue, 25 either as a proponent or an opponent; StenoTran 13 1 73 (5) monitor for balance on issues of 2 public concern; 3 74 (6) introduce some platform for 4 corrections; 5 75 (7) provide a publicly accessible log 6 of complaints including their disposition, ideally 7 available through the Internet; 8 76 (8) maintain a publicly accessible 9 list, ideally available through the Internet, of 10 individuals called on for interviews on issues of 11 public concern, identifying each as for or against, or 12 neutral; and 13 77 (9) issue an annual report 14 summarizing these complaints by issue, giving 15 statistics. 16 78 To ensure that the CBC corrects its 17 errors, the CRTC should: 18 79 (1) improve its monitoring of CBC 19 compliance with requirements; 20 80 (2) be more diligent in investigating 21 complaints; 22 81 (3) invoke sanctions for repeated 23 infractions; 24 82 (4) review the CBC's "Journalistic 25 Policy", and possibly other documents, in the CBC's StenoTran 14 1 licence. 2 83 Some examples of the evidence that I 3 have supplied are: 4 84 1. A producer told a host to 5 "emphasize things scary". 6 85 2. Three high profile hosts admitted 7 to ignoring the CBC's "Journalistic Policy". 8 86 3. A nuclear spokesman was de- 9 invited because the nuclear critic had left town but 10 the anti-nuclear interview was put out anyway. 11 87 4. A professor was de-invited when 12 he failed to provide the alarmist quotes wanted. 13 88 5. The CBC repeatedly refers to 14 thousands of deaths from the Chernobyl accident and 15 ignores the figure of less than 50 agreed by a 16 conference of 845 scientists sponsored by the UN. 17 89 6. One program even claimed a death 18 toll of 50,000 from the Three Mile Island accident, 19 compared with the generally accepted figure of one 20 person who may eventually die. 21 90 7. A docudrama pretended that a 22 Chernobyl-like accident had occurred near Toronto. 23 91 8. Such scary misinformation is 24 partly due to selective interviews with anti-nuclear 25 activists, introduced as experts but regarded as StenoTran 15 1 mavericks by their peers; and without any opportunity 2 for rebuttal. 3 92 9. One high profile host, David 4 Suzuki, repeatedly attacks nuclear energy and promotes 5 conservation, concealing the fact that airtight 6 dwellings could expose occupants to more radiation from 7 radon gas in a year than they would get from nuclear 8 energy in a lifetime. 9 93 To finish, I will summarize in a 10 parody of a CBC broadcast: 11 "Today at Sudbury a public 12 hearing into the CBC's 13 performance learned of systemic 14 bias in its treatment of issues 15 of public concern. A 32-page 16 exposé by an honoured 17 scientist..." 18 94 That's me. 19 "...documented abundant evidence 20 of bias extending over 25 years. 21 Among his examples of scare- 22 mongering, the CBC has 23 repeatedly exaggerated the death 24 toll of accidents by a factor of 25 at least 20, and once 50,000. StenoTran 16 1 He argued that the CBC appears 2 to be in violation of the 3 Broadcasting Act and challenged 4 it to make public the results of 5 monitoring for bias...It was 6 revealed that card-carrying 7 members of a pressure group 8 active in these issues have 9 operated within the CBC for at 10 least 20 years, employed on the 11 production and presentation of 12 programs on these issues. We 13 have obtained copies of letters 14 showing that the CRTC was made 15 aware of the bias, and the 16 existence of "moles" within the 17 CBC, as long ago as 1988, but it 18 chose to take no action." 19 95 Thank you. 20 96 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 21 Robertson. 22 97 Mr. Lahay. 23 1325 24 98 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 25 99 One further note. If you don't mind StenoTran 17 1 leaving a copy of your presentations, feel free to 2 leave them with the Commission. Thank you. 3 100 Next is Mrs. Catherine Meyer. 4 101 She is not here. 5 102 Mrs. Rosemay Connell. 6 103 David Hogg. 7 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 8 104 MR. HOGG: My name is David Hogg. I 9 have come here from Toronto, because I believe my 10 comments are correspondingly important for all 11 Canadians. 12 105 I am a professional engineer and 13 accountant. I am not a brain surgeon or rocket 14 scientist, nor have I ever claimed to be of that 15 calibre. But then I do not believe that that level of 16 intelligence is necessary to understand the issues of 17 fairness and justice which I am going to raise. 18 106 I am limiting my comments to CBC TV. 19 107 I should say at the outset that I did 20 try to have a face-to-face meeting over these matters, 21 and that never came to happen. 22 108 I have heard many Catholics express a 23 concern that CBC is anti-Catholic. By this, they mean 24 that CBC TV appears to take deliberate steps to portray 25 the Catholic faith in an unfavourable light. StenoTran 18 1 109 My wife and I have a personal 2 experience which we did not get to bring before the 3 CRTC for reasons I still do not understand. 4 110 Recently, if there was an issue which 5 could be portrayed as contentious, one can only 6 conclude CBC TV's deliberate policy has been to use 7 well-known dissidents. One dissident in particular 8 simply does not understand the Catholic faith. 9 111 Why would CBC TV go to this person 10 repeatedly? Are they more interested, as David 11 Halverston(ph) wrote, in heat and light? Is this their 12 mission? I do not think so. 13 112 If they are funded with public money, 14 they above all others have an obligation to present, 15 with fairness and integrity, the reality and plurality 16 which is Canada. CBC TV has absolutely no mandate to 17 present their own agenda which infringes the rights of 18 others. 19 113 After the experience that I want to 20 share with you, I now believe CBC TV's agenda is not 21 uniquely directed at Catholics but is generally anti 22 all religions. 23 114 On June 12, 1998 CBC TV aired on the 24 "National Magazine" a program "Faith and Media". 25 Ostensibly, it was to deal with complaints that StenoTran 19 1 religions were not being fairly dealt with by the 2 media. I was so disappointed with the approach of the 3 moderator that I ordered a transcript. The following 4 quotations, therefore, are precisely accurate. 5 115 Hanna Gardner's(ph) brief opening 6 stage-setting remark contained: 7 "Whether it is violence in the 8 Middle East or Northern Ireland 9 or the escalating conflict 10 between India and Pakistan, the 11 common threat that ties so much 12 of the trouble in our world 13 today is religion." (As read) 14 116 I took issue with Ms Gardner's use of 15 "so much". When "so much" is used and when it is 16 challenged, a fair and reasonable expectation would be 17 that the contention would be defended. 18 117 For example, she spends "so much" 19 time studying, or he spends "so much" time on his cars. 20 The defences might be that she studies ten hours a day, 21 six days a week; and he spends the whole of the 22 weekend, stopping only to eat and sleep, cleaning and 23 polishing his cars. 24 118 I e-mailed CBC to ask Ms Gardner to 25 defend her contention with verifiable data as evidence. StenoTran 20 1 I believe firmly in the principle of subsidiarity, 2 starting with the person who made or wrote the remark. 3 I got nowhere. So I contacted CBC's ombudsman for 4 help, pointing out that anti-religious Stalin and 5 Hitler, between them, caused more trouble than all 6 religions from the beginning of time. 7 119 As well, it was pointed out there is 8 Bosnia, Rwanda -- God help us -- Kosovo, et cetera. 9 120 Further into the show Ms Gardner 10 delivered: 11 "Maybe it would help if we had a 12 very practical example. Okay. 13 We are covering a story on 14 abortion clinics and bombings. 15 Doctors who perform abortions 16 are being shot at, some killed. 17 How do you do that story with 18 sensitivity to everyone?" (As 19 read) 20 121 Since the show was broadcast by 21 Canadian television for a Canadian audience, I submit 22 the content should be judged in a Canadian context. I 23 contend that in introducing in this manner, in a panel 24 discussion in which mainstream Canadian religions were 25 representative, the strong inference was that these StenoTran 21 1 religions were somehow implicated, even though that was 2 not stated specifically. 3 122 I had been researching the causes of 4 the only abortion clinic bombing. It was really a case 5 of arson. The lead detective on that case, Detective 6 John Boyce, with whom I have spoken, was not prepared 7 to attribute blame to those in the Pro-Life Movement or 8 abortion supporters. I have been unable to find any 9 responsible authority who would attribute these acts to 10 mainstream religions, Canadian or other. 11 123 What was the purpose of raising this 12 issue in this forum? 13 124 I asked for evidence to support the 14 proprietary of this comment in this forum. None was 15 provided. 16 125 A short time after, CBC aired a 17 program on a women's book store located on the same 18 premises as the abortion clinic. A statement was made 19 "there was arson in the book store aimed at the 20 abortion clinic upstairs". Again, when asked for 21 evidence, I never got an acknowledgement to my request. 22 That is brutal. 23 126 My initial expression of concern was 24 July 15, 1998. My inquiry has turned into a tortuous 25 mess, eventually landing on the desk of Perrin Beatty, StenoTran 22 1 President and CEO of CBC. 2 127 The last action to date was a letter 3 from my M.P. to Perrin Beatty, dated February 2, 1999, 4 to which I have not received a reply. This does not 5 surprise me. 6 128 To M.P. Jim Karygiannis' February 2nd 7 letter was attached my analysis of the contents of an 8 earlier response by Mr. Beatty. From my own 9 professional experience, it is difficult to imagine how 10 Mr. Beatty's letter could be more factually in error 11 than it was. 12 129 Copies of the correspondence is 13 submitted for your perusal. 14 130 The end result that nobody at CBC has 15 produced one shred of verifiable data to support the 16 contention or inference made in the program to which I 17 objected -- this in spite of providing the name and 18 telephone number of the detective to the ombudsman; 19 also in spite of a comprehensive list of this century's 20 troubles listed on two full pages of The Toronto Star 21 under the heading "The World at War", pages A12 and 22 A13, Wednesday, November 11, 1998. 23 131 These are the two pages. You can see 24 that it is pretty comprehensive. 25 132 So if there was evidence, there will StenoTran 23 1 be ample evidence there. 2 133 Essentially, that is denial anything 3 misleading occurred. How can anyone deal with that? 4 134 Three months after my initial 5 inquiry, CBC staff replied, completely ignoring 6 Ms Gardner's "so much of the trouble in our world 7 today". Then the ombudsman intervened, without being 8 asked, and did not convince me that he had more 9 objectivity or knowledge of the issue. My initial e- 10 mail was "lost in the inundation of mail we received 11 last season". 12 135 I was told staff were on holiday, 13 that there was a staff shortage. The whole thing is a 14 long, sorry and sordid tale which is well-documented. 15 136 Madame François Bertrand is quoted in 16 The Globe and Mail of Saturday, December 19, 1998: 17 "People will tell us why CBC is 18 so important in their own neck 19 of the woods." (As read) 20 137 My response is: CBC TV is not 21 important. In fact, I am hearing again and again: 22 "Who watches TV?" 23 138 One in particular was quite a well- 24 known and prominent figure. 25 139 CBC TV's problems seem to be so StenoTran 24 1 ingrained from top to bottom, no wonder The Globe 2 commented "this deepened moral problems". No wonder 3 there are strikes. 4 140 After what I have gone through and 5 before I could support the continuance of CBC TV, I 6 would need to be rigorously convinced that the person 7 appointed to replace Mr. Beatty was honest and 8 determined to bring integrity to a corporation in dire 9 need of credible leadership, quite likely at many 10 levels. 11 141 THE CHAIRPERSON: Does that complete 12 your comments? 13 142 MR. HOGG: Thank you very much indeed 14 for giving us this opportunity of bringing these 15 concerns before you. I am quite surprised that my 16 concerns parallel very clearly the concerns that were 17 enunciated earlier. 18 143 I would be happy to leave a copy of 19 my presentation. 20 144 THE CHAIRPERSON: We would appreciate 21 that, Mr. Hogg. Thank you very much for coming from 22 Toronto. 23 145 Very quickly for those who arrived 24 after our start, our lack of questions does not denote 25 on our part a lack of interest. As I said previously, StenoTran 25 1 it is important that we hear everyone here today; 2 therefore, we are not asking questions. 3 146 Please don't think of that as lack of 4 interest. 5 147 Mr. Lahay. 6 1335 7 148 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 8 149 Also a comment for those of you who 9 are here today but have not registered and do not wish 10 to give a presentation that there are forms outside of 11 the room for your comments. You can fill those out, 12 and certainly the Commission would be pleased to 13 receive them. 14 150 Mr. Paul Sauvé. Monsieur Sauvé, s'il 15 vous plaît. 16 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 17 151 M. SAUVÉ: Oui, bonjour. Bonjour, 18 Madame la Présidente. Paul Sauvé. Merci de m'écouter 19 pour quelques minutes. Moi, ce n'est pas une 20 présentation très philosophique mais plutôt 21 personnelle. 22 152 Je m'appelle Paul Sauvé. Je suis 23 marié avec Claire, ma femme de trente-neuf ans. Nous 24 avons 16 enfants, 10 petits-enfants. Ma racine 25 canadienne du côté de ma mère recule jusqu'à 1663 et du StenoTran 26 1 côté du mon père, à 1671. Alors, il est impossible 2 pour moi de décrire comment je me sens comme Canadien 3 mais je n'ai pas ailleurs à aller. Alors, après 300 4 ans, il faut que je reste ici. 5 153 Je suis peut-être un peu présomptueux 6 de croire que je pourrais avoir un effet sur votre 7 décision mais je crois que j'ai une dette à mes 8 ancêtres et à mes enfants d'au moins donner mon 9 opinion. 10 154 Chaque génération doit laisser à la 11 prochaine génération un monde un peu meilleur que comme 12 nous l'avons reçu. Il me semble que de plus en plus, 13 Radio-Canada s'éloigne de nous dans le nord et semble 14 vouloir centraliser plutôt qu'améliorer les services 15 régionaux où on trouve les vrais besoins de Canadiens 16 comme moi. 17 155 Maintenant, je m'excuse, mais je vais 18 changer en anglais parce que je veux faire référence à 19 un texte qui a été préparé par Guylaine Saucier et j'ai 20 beaucoup de difficulté à traduire. Alors, quand je 21 pense en anglais, il faut que je parle en anglais; 22 quand je pense en français, il faut que je parle en 23 français. Alors, je m'excuse. 24 156 In a recent edition of the Edmonton 25 Journal, I cut out an article that appeared in the StenoTran 27 1 editorial pages. It was written, at least attributed, 2 to Guylaine Saucier, the Chairperson of the Board of 3 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. 4 157 I agree totally with what she is 5 saying, yet it frustrates me to no end. If what 6 appears in this article is what she and the board 7 believe, why did they not implement what they believe 8 before now? 9 "The CBC/Radio-Canada should be, 10 for a publicly funded 11 institution, in the business of 12 reinforcing and transmitting 13 Canadian culture" (As read) 14 158 Writes Ms Saucier. 15 "There is a danger that the 16 shareholders of CBC, citizens 17 from every region and walk of 18 life, may increasingly disengage 19 themselves from the discussion. 20 They may come to view the 21 fundamental issues, such as 22 whether the CBC's mandate 23 continues to be relevant and 24 worthy of their support as 25 taxpayers." (As read) StenoTran 28 1 159 I must tell you that the biggest 2 ovation that I heard at the Scott Tournament of Hearts, 3 the Canadian Curling Championships for Women in 4 Charlottetown last week, was when it was announced that 5 the CBC was not going to televise the finals and the 6 semi-finals. 7 160 That hurts. Why should all the 8 taxpayers be so happy that their network is not going 9 to televise and that it is going to be left to a 10 private network? It really is something that I didn't 11 like very much. 12 161 I am here to "kick tires", as was 13 invited by Mme Saucier. We differ in definition, not 14 on strategic plan. How do you kick tires of someone so 15 big and so expensive? I am sure others will suggest 16 areas of improvement. I have decided to emphasize 17 northern Ontario, regional programming and sports. 18 162 The reason I am saying sports is 19 because I was prompted to come here by a comment made 20 by one of the members of the CRTC who said -- and I 21 don't have the name -- there's too much sports on CBC. 22 163 I hope Ms Saucier forgives me for 23 changing the order of her five commitments, because 24 being relevant and accountable take care of themselves 25 if you meet your objectives. StenoTran 29 1 164 Please forgive me for favouring, as I 2 see it a little differently than what seems to be the 3 definition of culture as the CBC/Radio-Canada sees it 4 now. 5 165 To me, culture is what is 6 historically Canadian; how we are identified by the 7 rest of the world. Trying to be anything else is to be 8 ashamed of what we are. 9 166 Relevant: What is relevant? Does it 10 mean that radio should have a meaning to the people it 11 serves? I understand there is a CBC Two. What is 12 that? What does it air? 13 167 I think there is even a French Radio- 14 Canada Two, or another network. 15 168 The moose and I up north never hear 16 it. We have never heard it, and I don't think we will 17 ever hear it, unless there are changes. 18 169 That must be a service for the 19 culturally deprived southern Ontario and Montreal area. 20 After all, they don't have any culture down there. 21 They could have Radio Two send us all the museums and 22 everything else there is there. 23 170 Is not being relevant providing 24 regional service? To Radio-Canada, Montreal area, 25 culture is what the north needs. I don't think so. StenoTran 30 1 Why not be relevant and give us the regional services 2 that are needed up north? 3 171 Why is every thought centred around 4 Toronto and Montreal? Be relevant and expand 5 drastically regional services. 6 172 To nurture Canadian culture: What is 7 more Canadian, Bach and Beethoven or Natalie McMaster 8 and Chuck Labelle? The CBC/Radio-Canada has probably 9 the most extensive symphony library in Canada, and 10 there is nothing wrong with that. Is that more 11 Canadian than hockey? 12 173 Who is doing Canadian French country 13 music in northern Ontario? No one. 14 174 Why take away old time fiddling music 15 of Canadian artists? If some CBC programming is 16 important to some, why is it not then as important for 17 other music that is also Canadian? 18 175 I spent many hours travelling in 19 northern Ontario listening to René Le Cavalier and 20 hockey, because my work for 28 years was travelling all 21 of northern Ontario and listening to René Le Cavalier 22 in hockey. Now hockey is only important around 23 Montreal. We don't have any hockey on radio up in 24 northern Ontario. 25 176 We realize that someone else bought StenoTran 31 1 the rights to the Montreal Canadian games, but can't 2 the CBC/Radio-Canada cooperate and provide a service 3 for the rest of Canada by maybe buying the rights for 4 the rest of Canada? 5 177 One aspect of Canadian life that tied 6 this country together when I was growing up was Foster 7 Hewitt's "Hello Canada and hockey fans" in Newfoundland 8 and in the United States. 9 178 Une autre chanson, "Mon pays c'est 10 l'hiver" par Gilles Vigneault and hockey are being a 11 big part of Canada. Now the Toronto Star in 12 yesterday's issue carried an article entitled "Curling 13 and TV". How very Canadian. Nowhere else in the world 14 would curling happen on television. 15 179 If you would have witnessed the briar 16 that just completed, there were more people looking at 17 the final games there than there was looking at the 18 Stanley Cup Finals. 19 180 I was very frustrated when I heard a 20 CRTC member ask: "Do we have too much sports on 21 CBC/Radio-Canada?" 22 181 What sports on radio? I wish there 23 was some to cut. There is no sports on radio. 24 182 Who televised the Canada Winter Games 25 this year from Newfoundland? May I emphasize that it StenoTran 32 1 was the "Canada Winter Games", where only Canadians who 2 could afford to pay a premium, where the service is 3 available, could watch their children and classmates 4 participate. Is this reaching out to the young? 5 183 The CBC/Radio-Canada wants to reach 6 out to the young. Is there a better way to reach out 7 to the young than with other young people? 8 184 Is the CBC/Radio-Canada willing to 9 let NBC do the profiles of Canadian athletes at the 10 next Olympics? No one can follow our athletes better 11 than the CBC/Radio-Canada without worry about making 12 money at doing it. 13 185 Basketball, which was invented by a 14 Canadian, is now an American sport. Where have the 15 North Zip(ph) gone? Where are the Jets? How long have 16 the Oilers, the Canucks, the Senators, the Flames -- 17 yes, and even the Montreal Canadiens -- how much life 18 is left in them? 19 186 What about the Expos, Canadian 20 football? All have a better chance of survival with 21 exposure. 22 187 CBC/Radio-Canada television and radio 23 have a role to play in this. Indirectly, they could 24 help save these franchises by buying the rights and 25 broadcasting the games all across the country, and StenoTran 33 1 maybe having them become popular. 2 188 Reaching out to young audiences: 3 This really worries me. Are we talking for all of 4 Canada or again for the culturally-deprived large 5 cities of the country? 6 189 To be very cynical, I believe that 7 this issue is more apple pie than reality here in 8 northern Ontario. 9 190 Connect to Canadians: Does connect 10 mean give them what is good for them, not what is 11 needed or what they want? Canada is a vast country, 12 and in order to connect it must be done regionally. 13 Only regionally can CBC/Radio-Canada reflect and 14 provide the services relevant to Canadians like myself. 15 191 To summarize, in order to connect to 16 this Canadian CBC/Radio-Canada must become regionally 17 relevant; re-instate radio broadcasts of hockey games 18 for us and the moose up here; expand greatly the 19 playing of Canadian old time music, both French and 20 English, in northern Ontario and the rest of Canada. 21 192 I think you will hear that more often 22 in some other areas also. 23 193 Continue the good coverage of the 24 Olympics, which is the best, no matter how you do. You 25 can play the channels, but the Olympics is covered the StenoTran 34 1 best by the CBC. 2 194 Become a big player in professional 3 sports of this country. Look at how the United States 4 promote and even create icons around their professional 5 sports teams. 6 195 Merci beaucoup de m'avoir écouté et 7 j'espère que vos décisions seront fructueuses pour tous 8 les Canadiens. 9 196 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci beaucoup, 10 Monsieur Sauvé. Thank you, Mr. Sauvé, for your 11 remarks. 12 197 We will go on to our next presenter. 13 1345 14 198 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 15 199 Mrs. Betty Cajanek, please. 16 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 17 200 MRS. CAJANEK: Thank you. At this 18 time CBC appears to be affected by a lack of vision. 19 It is not only the technicians' strike that has 20 disrupted programming; our national broadcaster seems 21 to be set adrift. Often there is an excellent program 22 followed by a sleeper. 23 201 CBC needs to reshape itself and 24 decide its mandate. Will it be a public national 25 broadcaster, or will it try to compete with television StenoTran 35 1 sitcoms? CBC is not marketing itself when it is 2 involved in consistent squabbling over its purpose. In 3 an increasingly competitive consumer environment, CBC 4 needs to build a strong long-term marketing image in 5 order to compete. 6 202 Perhaps marketing research and 7 business planning could be carried out at reasonable 8 cost through one of the university by upper year 9 commerce students, to determine the mission of the CBC 10 and how its resources could best be used. 11 203 I believe a poll must be done to 12 establish who listens or watches CBC. The age of the 13 listener may be critical. For example, the variety of 14 music on radio is deplorable to a middle-aged person 15 like myself. Outside of "Finkelson's(ph) Forty-Fives" 16 and a smattering of popular classical and semi- 17 classical music. In tough times, people need happy 18 music. 19 204 Furthermore, people want and respect 20 the quality programming CBC has customarily produced. 21 To remain competitive, a poll should be taken every 15 22 years to re-assess what programming the public desires. 23 205 On the eve of the new millennium, the 24 CBC, along with the world, is at a crossroads of 25 change. This new technology, a new generation of StenoTran 36 1 listeners, and less money. Politicians are encouraging 2 the CBC to privatize, yet the CBC would lose its 3 independence, its innovation and its will to produce 4 quality programming if it privatized. 5 206 Like all businesses today, the CBC 6 must learn to manage its affairs more economically. 7 They must cut top-heavy management. Surely there are 8 other ways to support public broadcasting besides 9 privatization or advertising. Could we possibly look 10 to other countries to learn from their example? 11 Possibly funds could be acquired by applying a 12 licensing fee to all televisions and radios that are 13 sold. 14 207 In reporting the news, CBC provides 15 accurate, up-to-date information on a regional and a 16 national level. This is important to Canadians who 17 often hear news about their employer from the radio 18 before an announcement is made on the job. 19 208 CBC needs to relink with the little 20 guy in Canada and discuss issues affecting the ordinary 21 Canadian. This can only be done by delving into the 22 diverse regions of the country and touching on the 23 daily experiences and problems of people. 24 209 For example, until recently, I 25 believed Toronto was the only place in Toronto to find StenoTran 37 1 a job. However, word of mouth advises Kitchener and 2 Cambridge are also booming. We should know why they 3 are booming and what kind of jobs are available in 4 order to better advise our children. 5 210 In addition, rural areas and 6 settlements in the north rely on CBC to bring culture 7 and Canadian identity to their homes. However, CBC 8 will be facing even greater competition as satellite 9 dishes come down in price, enabling most people to tune 10 in to specialty channels, such as TSN and A&E. 11 211 To compete, CBC must be distinct. It 12 must set priorities. It cannot try to serve everyone. 13 We should be pursuing our nationalism through the 14 regions by hearing views from across the country. 15 212 Personally, I listen to CBC all day, 16 every day, to keep current on national and regional 17 events and to listen to various issues. My hands may 18 be busy, but my mind is stimulated by the issues 19 presented. However, I do think parts of radio can be 20 done better, and cheaper. 21 213 "Dead Dog Cafe" should be replaced by 22 stories from native history, positive information that 23 is taking place in the native community. In fact, it 24 is high time a truer Canadian history was told, such as 25 the French and native version. I realize this is a StenoTran 38 1 huge undertaking, but perhaps it could be done in 2 conjunction with one of the universities, while we are 3 still young enough to remember our history. 4 214 This history could possibly be sold 5 to the educational system, or could replace 6 "Richardson's Round-up", which is supposed to be a 7 program on the arts and culture. 8 215 Should the Canadian history 9 undertaking not be feasible, I would replace 10 "Richardson" with Lister Sinclair's "Excellent Ideas" 11 or some of the overnight programming, of which I seldom 12 get to hear because by 8 o'clock most of us have 13 switched on the television. 14 216 Television specialty channels are 15 also popular in our home. To watch tennis, golf or 16 curling, TSN is a necessity -- taped or live -- 17 followed closely by A&E and CBC Newsworld. I think you 18 would made better use of "Undercurrents" and Pamela 19 Wallin at an earlier time, 7:00 or 8:00 p.m., before we 20 are too tired to watch these shows. 21 217 Yes, CBC Canadians are listening. 22 But please remember, most of us have been battling job 23 cuts and wage freezes since the early 1970s. We are 24 faced with the same technological changes and federal 25 and provincial downloading that you are facing. We are StenoTran 39 1 tired and a little slow to react, but we are listening. 2 218 A mature country needs a national 3 radio system that is pure, without advertising. To 4 unite Canada, citizens must be aware of views and 5 values from across the country. This is how we learn 6 about each other and how we keep our country strong. 7 219 Living next to the big elephant, the 8 United States, it is imperative that we maintain 9 control of our culture through the CBC. Otherwise, we 10 will become that insignificant other; or worse, part of 11 the U.S.A. 12 220 Thank you. 13 221 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much 14 for your remarks. 15 222 I just have one point of 16 clarification. 17 223 Your first comment was about a 18 marketing image on the long term. Was that for radio 19 and television? 20 224 MRS. CAJANEK: Yes. 21 225 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 22 much. 23 1353 24 226 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 25 227 Tom Gerry, please. StenoTran 40 1 PRESENTATION - PRÉSENTATION 2 228 MR. GERRY: Thank you. I am here to 3 speak as a member of the public. I am a parent, and I 4 am a university professor. What I have to say will 5 most directly be about the radio programming, from 6 those points of view. 7 229 I listen to the CBC as often as I 8 can. I watch a little bit of the CBC TV occasionally. 9 I have noticed -- and one of the main reasons that I 10 came today -- that the CBC is really struggling with 11 what they are trying to do. I feel fairly outraged by 12 that, because I value it so highly. 13 230 I am going to talk a bit about 14 regional programming. I think all three, regional, 15 national and local programming are extremely important, 16 and I would like to suggest one of the images that 17 maybe we should start using when we think of the CBC. 18 We generally think of it as the voice or the image of 19 Canada, but I would like to also introduce the idea 20 that the CBC is also the ears of Canada and the eyes of 21 Canada. 22 231 I depend on the CBC for learning 23 mainly about issues and events in other parts of the 24 world, in other parts of the country, and in my region 25 and city. StenoTran 41 1 232 I would like to make a couple of 2 suggestions, not necessarily specifically changes but 3 perhaps additions and so on. 4 233 Regarding local programming, it has 5 been cut back here. We have lived through what it 6 would be like, to a certain extent, not to have the CBC 7 because it has really been noticeably attenuated. That 8 brings home to us just how important the kind of local 9 coverage that the CBC used to be able to do is. 10 234 We still have our morning and 11 afternoon programs, which are from Sudbury, and the 12 people there do a valiant job. But the region that 13 they are covering is incredibly large and they need 14 help to carry on. 15 235 One of the things that I mostly 16 notice, being at the university, is the lack of sports 17 coverage of amateur sports. This is again the radio 18 largely but it is also true of TV. The university and 19 the local amateur sports are basically ignored, and I 20 find that peculiar. 21 236 The other thing I have noticed is 22 that there are a lot of resources within the CBC that I 23 think are not utilized. With the labour dispute going 24 on right now, some of those things have become clear in 25 the scramble for programming, and things are being StenoTran 42 1 rebroadcast. Also, people in the CBC are making use of 2 programs made in the other part of the country, and 3 also we don't hear those. They are fascinating. 4 237 What I am saying is that sometimes 5 local programming is regarded as somewhat trivial. I 6 have heard that complaint. I don't think there is any 7 necessity for the CBC to be accused of that, partly 8 because they have resources to bring stories from other 9 parts of the country to people in different regions. 10 And they could do more of that. 11 238 The other thing is this overnight 12 programming on CBC radio where basically news and 13 cultural affairs from other broadcasting systems are 14 rebroadcast, I had a thought regarding the television 15 network. 16 239 Again, I am not a cable subscriber, 17 so I am only talking of what I can receive with an 18 aerial. That kind of format is really important and 19 useful. If that were extended to television, I think 20 there could be very useful programming created that 21 way, and again without a lot of new resources being 22 needed. 23 240 That is to elaborate on my thought 24 that CBC is Canadians' ears and eyes, as well as our 25 image. StenoTran 43 1 241 As a university professor, I rely on 2 the CBC, several programs in particular, because I am 3 involved in Canadian studies, Canadian literature. The 4 programs are invaluable, not just on the basis of 5 content but because many of the programs involve fine 6 writing. To listen to the way those programs are 7 written and presented is an excellent teaching tool, is 8 an excellent lesson for students in terms of 9 composition of their own projects. 10 242 Again with young people -- I would 11 like to switch a bit to my own daughter, who is 12, and 12 her friends. She is a pretty normal young adolescent. 13 She listens to the CBC, probably because I listen to 14 the CBC and my wife listens to the CBC. Anyway, she is 15 now a fan. 16 243 One day she commented to me -- I 17 guess it was at 6:30 -- that "As it Happens" is her 18 favourite program. I said: "Why is that?" And she 19 said: "Well, I really like the stories." 20 244 That taught me a number of things 21 about young people. One of them is that programming 22 especially created for young people is not always 23 necessary. I thought of how kids like to listen in on 24 adult conversations. I think that is a very important 25 thing. StenoTran 44 1 245 There are all kinds of spinoffs from 2 her interest in the CBC. She listens to more than "As 3 it Happens". In fact, the things she hears and hears 4 us talking about -- and she gets involved in the 5 conversations -- lead to expansion of all kinds of 6 things. So it becomes this wonderful teaching 7 opportunity. 8 246 So another thing that the CBC does 9 well, and should continue to do, is to spark 10 conversations among people so that it doesn't just end 11 when you turn off the television or turn off the radio; 12 that there is a continuation. 13 247 Finally, I want to say a couple of 14 things about the special role of the CBC. This really, 15 as it stands, does not apply to the television aspect 16 of it, as far as I can judge, to a great extent, 17 although I do depend, as I said, on CBC TV for some 18 news importing and comedy shows. 19 248 I think the special role of the CBC, 20 besides all the details of programming, is an approach. 21 Really, it is a question of values. I was trying to 22 sum it up in one word, and I wrote down a few words. 23 One is critical; another is trustworthy; another is 24 intelligent; and serious. 25 249 I think the fact that the radio has StenoTran 45 1 remained non-commercial is one of the key reasons why 2 the CBC can uphold those kinds of values and that we, 3 as Canadians, can trust it to give a critical view. 4 250 Those are my thoughts. 5 251 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 6 Gerry, for joining us today. 7 252 We will continue. As we said 8 earlier, we are proceeding with the first ten 9 registered participants and then we will probably take 10 a break. 11 253 We will proceed now with No. 9. Is 12 that correct? 13 254 MR. LAHAY: Mr. Charlie Smith. 14 255 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. 8. 15 1400 16 256 MR. LAHAY: Mr. Smith. 17 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 18 257 MR. SMITH: My name is Charlie Smith. 19 I am from Massey. I am a farmer and I write a bit. 20 258 CBC is one of the foundations of my 21 life. I am on a party line so I can't use the Net. 22 That doesn't matter because I have CBC. The radio is 23 always on. It wakes me in the morning. It is CBC in 24 my wife's car; it is CBC in my farm truck. 25 259 When it is summer and the days are StenoTran 46 1 long, I eat breakfast before the sun is up and I listen 2 to Deutschvella(ph), Australia, Holland and Radio 3 France. I hear the world on my little hill, thanks to 4 CBC. In the winter, when it is the nights that are 5 long and my cows are calving in the cold and I sit up 6 half the night to watch for calves, it is CBC and me. 7 260 It is northern Ontario CBC that tells 8 me what is going on in my community. It is through the 9 radio that the wind of the nation blows, and it is CBC 10 that gives me a window on the world. 11 261 I am an information junkie. I am a 12 wordsmith. It is CBC that gives me a voice. 13 262 I want you to think, when there is a 14 push in some far place, when the junta takes control 15 and the rebels storm the capital, what is the first 16 thing they take over? The radio stations. 17 263 I am not an executive type, but I am 18 a farmer and I know you can't starve a profit out of 19 anything. I know there are sacred trusts: the land, 20 honour and communication. Are we throttling 21 communication? Is it necessary to make wealth out of 22 the nation's voice? Is this a real priority? 23 264 As a people we care. We care enough 24 to send aid, aircraft, ships and troops halfway around 25 the world. We stick our cold noses into other people's StenoTran 47 1 business and never mind the cost. But we can't afford 2 to hear our own voices bouncing back out of the 3 darkness. Shame! 4 265 You might think that I am just one 5 voice, but there are lots of people like me. We here 6 are just the yappy peaks of the silent iceberg. It is 7 rally the listeners who shape the land. We hear, we 8 think, we speak. If you think it is in the nation's 9 best interest to restrict our ears, then we will 10 wonder: What is the agenda? 11 266 So far I have spoken of the radio. 12 The radio is most important to me. Why? Because they 13 have already screwed up CBC TV. I am disenchanted with 14 it. It has become little more than another television 15 station, full of ads trying to sell me things I don't 16 need. 17 267 I only get two television stations 18 with any regularity; and like I said, I am an 19 information junkie. I find myself watching CTV more of 20 the time. Oh, there are some very good CBC programs. 21 I need not list them; we all know what they are. But 22 CBC has gotten way too commercial. 23 268 When the hockey playoffs are on, they 24 even pre-empt the news. My God, the news. Let the 25 private broadcaster have professional sports. StenoTran 48 1 269 Speaking of the news, why in the name 2 of goodness is there no CBC local news? Why do I have 3 to count on Baton Broadcasting -- that is MCTV -- for 4 local televised events? They do a very good job, but 5 where is CBC? They have the expertise to do a dandy 6 job on radio. Why can't they do something similar on 7 television? Another point of view would be refreshing. 8 270 CBC television goes off the air 9 pretty early around here. Couldn't the Parliamentary 10 Question Period be shown then? What could that cost? 11 Hell, we don't even need a commentator. We can think. 12 --- Laughter / Rires 13 271 Sports -- I want to talk about 14 sports. I mentioned hockey, but I am not done bitching 15 about sports. 16 272 I like sports, but they show the 17 wrong ones most of the time. Hunting season comes to 18 the north. It is the major seasonal event. It is not 19 on television. There is a little interview show by the 20 Hunters and Anglers Organization, and that's it. 21 273 Did you ever see how Michigan 22 television stations cover hunting? Wow! We could 23 learn a thing or two there. 24 274 Hunting might be a bit politically 25 incorrect, but that is partially CBC's fault. They StenoTran 49 1 broadcasting Disneyesque anti-hunting nonsense and 2 never show the real thing. In this area, there are 3 more hunters than there are curlers, hockey players and 4 figure skaters combined. There are 1.25 million 5 outdoor cards sold in Ontario alone. 6 275 The Canadian Winter Games were on. I 7 saw none of it. None of it! Our winter games were not 8 on. Maybe they have forgotten what CBC stands for. 9 Did you watch the last Olympics, winter or summer? 10 Canadians did very well at some sports -- shooting, for 11 instance. We got to see lots of people on skates. We 12 didn't do that good on ice. 13 276 But I don't recall seeing some 14 athletes, not even getting their medals. Gold is gold. 15 277 There were Canadians winning gold. 16 Our national anthem, our flag proudly raised, the 17 pinnacle of some proud Canadian's life-long effort. 18 But CBC chose to show someone losing at something more 19 popular. 20 278 That is the problem. 21 Commercialization is destroying CBC TV. The bottom 22 line shouldn't be the almighty buck. The mandate 23 should be to enlighten, to educate, to unite; to 24 showcase Canadian performers, Canadian athletes, 25 Canadian interests of all types. StenoTran 50 1 279 CBC radio still hangs on as a 2 national voice, but CBC TV is the eyes and the eyes are 3 half blind. The eyes are full of dollar signs. The 4 eyes are focused on the lowest common denominator. 5 That is a shame, and it's up to you to fix it. 6 280 Thank you. 7 281 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 8 Smith. 9 282 Where did you say your farm is again? 10 283 MR. SMITH: Massey. 11 284 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 12 1407 13 285 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 14 286 Daryl Shandro. 15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 16 287 MS SHANDRO: I have lived in Sudbury 17 now for about seven years, and I am one of what I 18 consider to be a growing number of economically 19 displaced Canadians. I am an Atlantic Canadian. Most 20 of us are displaced these days. We spend most of our 21 working lives in a series of different communities 22 across the country. 23 288 As more and more Canadians are forced 24 to move around the country for employment purposes, I 25 believe the CBC's mandate is becoming more and more StenoTran 51 1 important; that is, allowing and encouraging Canadians 2 to know about and communicate with each other. 3 289 As well as that, I think that more 4 recently it has become more common that it keeps people 5 in touch with their home communities, their historic 6 communities, as well as introducing them to their 7 prospective communities. 8 290 I don't think that most people here 9 or in Nova Scotia would know that there is a housing 10 crisis in Calgary if it wasn't for the CBC. I don't 11 think many of us would know how to make decisions on 12 things like the relevance of the turbot wars a few 13 years ago, and things like that, living here, or the 14 arguments over seal quotas, if it wasn't for the CBC. 15 291 I am going to speak mainly about CBC 16 Radio One, because that is what I listen to. We don't 17 have Radio Two here. A few people have already griped 18 about that, and I will add my name to that list. I 19 think that should be a national service, and it isn't. 20 292 Here we have weekly provincial and 21 regional reports that are broadcast nationally. They 22 provide, in my opinion, more stories in more depth than 23 the national newspapers and all of the flagship news 24 programs on television combined, and that is because 25 they are locally oriented. StenoTran 52 1 293 Many of them talk about far-flung 2 outposts of the nation. I have lived in some of them, 3 so I am very interested in what is happening in places 4 like Whitehorse, Corner Brook and St. John's. 5 294 I believe that the recent cuts over 6 the last maybe ten years have really taken a bite out 7 of the type of regional programming that I depend on to 8 keep in touch with different places that I have lived 9 in. It really hurt when the noon programs were lost. 10 And they have been lost pretty well right across the 11 country, the regional noon programs. 12 295 We have fewer story-tellers and we 13 have fewer stories, and this really does hurt people 14 trying to keep in touch with other parts of the 15 country. 16 296 There have been calls to introduce -- 17 and I have heard these calls -- some amount of 18 commercial interests and advertising to different, at 19 this point, non-commercial programming, like Radio One. 20 I think, as with the television programming, that would 21 be an enormous mistake. For me, it is a matter of 22 journalistic quality. There are well-known 23 international scholars like Noam Tronsky(ph), who have 24 attributed our access to better news in Canada to the 25 existence of our national broadcaster. StenoTran 53 1 297 I would think that for those of us 2 who are real news junkies and read everything available 3 and listen to whatever we can there is a noticeable 4 difference between the quality and the depth of the 5 journalism between CBC and your 90-second blurb that 6 you are going to get on other radio channels and that 7 you are going to get on national TV. They now only 8 cover most of -- even the CBC's "National" program will 9 cover only six or seven stories; where you may have 10 depth, you just don't have the numbers of stories from 11 different places. 12 298 Economic restructuring in Canada 13 hasn't just made us move all over the place; I think it 14 has complicated the job of responsible journalism. I 15 think it is really important that the CBC -- because 16 the CBC is a link and it helps us make political 17 decisions and it has the mandate. I believe it alone 18 has the mandate to do that, to tell us what we should 19 think about cod quotas, whether we should care about 20 salmon in British Columbia, and the new government in 21 Nunavut coming in. 22 299 Because the restructuring in Canada 23 has caused universities and a number of different 24 institutions to start asking for more corporate 25 funding, I think it is important that when there is a StenoTran 54 1 release of a study or of information, that along with 2 it the public broadcaster should be required to at 3 least divulge the nature of the funding that underlies 4 the information that is being given. If there is an 5 interest that is not publicly known on the part of the 6 experts that they are interviewing, or the group that 7 is releasing the study, that should be made public as 8 well. 9 300 I would think if that can't be, then 10 the story should not air, regardless of how much you 11 don't like CTV or someone else to air it first. I 12 think it really hurts us to have certain studies being 13 reported as somehow disinterested objective fact when 14 they are released by the Fraser Institute or the C.D. 15 Howe Institute, or it is a study released by Novo 16 Pharmaceuticals, and the experts are drawn from people 17 who may be on the boards of these various institutions. 18 301 Either the nature of the funding or 19 the actual funders, if there are very few and they are 20 very large and influential, should be divulged at the 21 same time as the research results. 22 302 In places like Sudbury, I think that 23 is really important. We don't live in Toronto. For 24 me, that is important because we don't have the kind of 25 access to a lot of media that some people in the StenoTran 55 1 country do. Our alternative media, alternative to the 2 CBC -- because I think of them as the other guys -- as 3 far as radio goes, are almost all owned by the same 4 company here in town. Our English "daily" has been 5 taken over by Conrad Black. 6 303 Since then, a lot of the journalism 7 and some of the local content, and things like that, 8 while I am not sure about bias, certainly it has become 9 much more uniform. There are fewer voices. There is a 10 much more narrow range for you to choose from, as far 11 as views. 12 304 I think it is perhaps time for us to 13 think about adding to the national mandate and being 14 quite specific about CBC having some kind of role in 15 regional programming. I think that that would help do 16 two things. One, it would give us all an excuse to ask 17 for please, please more funding so that our local 18 people can do their job better to send stories about us 19 to other Canadians. It would also mean that we would 20 be able to have the kind of local coverage that we 21 need. 22 305 I think people in PEI were squawking 23 about this; that in some cases, really you don't have a 24 lot of good alternatives at your command, depending on 25 where you live in Canada, to the CBC. So with any loss StenoTran 56 1 of local programming, you really have lost an 2 incredibly valuable link to your community. 3 306 If there is one other thing on the 4 wish list, my kids -- my mother lives in Edmonton, and 5 I have an aunt in Grand Falls, Newfoundland. My family 6 is kind of spread all over God's green earth. 7 307 My children -- I have some teenagers 8 and some little folks -- really believe that -- 9 308 There has been some noise about them 10 needing to get some youth involved in listening to the 11 programs. My kids listen to the local university 12 channel for user-friendly youth-friendly alternative 13 music. I think that while we have a pop music show 14 that airs nationally, it doesn't actually cover very 15 much of that kind of thing, which is why my kids feel 16 that they have to go to the Laurentian University 17 channel. 18 309 We may actually lose the Laurentian 19 University channel, and it's the only one that is ever 20 on the dial other than CBC. It would be nice, if they 21 are going to look at youth, for them to not just look 22 at -- they do listen to "Between the Covers", but they 23 like music. Music is extremely important to these 24 characters. So it would be very good to have some of 25 our music programming for them -- at least they think StenoTran 57 1 it would. I'm not too sure. 2 310 It is my understanding that there are 3 a number of new services sort of on the table. I 4 really believe that the CRTC should urge the CBC to 5 consider expanding Radio Two to becoming a truly 6 national program; that if indeed there is going to be 7 another radio programming available -- they want a new 8 channel. I believe, for French, a French news radio 9 channel. But their proposal at this point is something 10 like Ottawa, Moncton and Montreal. I don't believe 11 they should be bringing in new programs that don't go 12 across the nation, that are not universally accessible. 13 311 To me, to be proposing on-line 14 services before you actually give francophone Canadians 15 a national news service on the radio that goes right 16 across the country, seems a little absurd. 17 312 It is my understanding -- and I could 18 be wrong; perhaps things have gone crazy since the last 19 time I checked in on the numbers -- that less than 30 20 per cent of Canadians have computers. And some of them 21 are like our friend the farmer over here who has a 22 party line. He can't get on the Internet. This would 23 be something that would only be available to people who 24 have computers, money for a server and don't live in 25 really far-flung rural areas. StenoTran 58 1 313 I am reasonably sure that most of us 2 -- at least I would prefer to have Radio Two come to me 3 so that I have some choice between my radio -- most of 4 us can afford a radio, and a lot of us can't afford 5 Internet and a computer -- and that they make the more 6 universal and democratic forms available right across 7 the country uniformly before they go tossing a bunch of 8 money at Internet services. 9 314 Apart from that, I would just like to 10 say that I could not imagine my life without CBC radio. 11 I live and die by it. I work out of my home, and it 12 would be a great loss. We call ourselves CBC-holics in 13 my family, and when we call each other we talk about 14 our kids, the weather and what Michael Enright said 15 this morning. 16 315 While I am strongly in support, I am 17 really, really worried that I am going to lose my 18 public broadcaster to funding cuts; that I am going to 19 lose the things that I value most about CBC and CBC 20 radio to funding cuts. 21 316 Thank you. 22 317 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 23 much, Ms Shandro. 24 318 Our next presenter, please. 25 1421 StenoTran 59 1 319 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 2 320 Marian Gilmour will be the final 3 presenter of the first ten. 4 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 5 321 MS GILMOUR: Good afternoon. I 6 debated about doing this, particularly after realizing 7 that most of the arguments have already been presented, 8 either here today or in hearings in other parts of the 9 country. But here I am and wondering if in fact one 10 person can make a difference. 11 322 My inspiration for thinking so comes 12 from that delightful senior Betty Hyde in Ottawa who 13 challenged the President of the Royal Bank over the 14 closure of a branch in her neighbourhood. When asked 15 by a reporter what gave her the confidence that one 16 little person could make a difference, her reply was: 17 "Certainly they can. Have you ever been in bed with a 18 mosquito?" 19 --- Laughter / Rires 20 323 Using the questions suggested by the 21 Commission as a guide, may I present my personal 22 position -- and it is not a commercial for the CBC. 23 324 In my view, the CBC fulfils its role 24 as the national broadcaster. It has done for Canada in 25 the 20th Century what the railroads did in the 19th. StenoTran 60 1 The latter opened up the country geographically and 2 linked it physically from sea to sea. The CBC opens 3 our eyes, ears, minds and perhaps even our hearts to 4 our fellow countrymen; and though a transcontinental 5 journey by train is not as accommodating today, we have 6 the CBC to transport us from community to community, 7 from province to province to territory, and even 8 beyond. 9 325 I will be in Cuba later this week 10 where I will be able to get CBC TV. And how 11 gratifying, as a Canadian, it was to watch some of 12 those excellent CBC docudramas when I was recently in 13 Johannesburg, South Africa. 14 326 Our daily lives are illuminated and 15 enriched by the opportunity to know what other 16 Canadians are doing, thinking, enduring and enjoying. 17 I can be enlightened, amused, comforted and angered all 18 in one program. I appreciate the mind-stretching 19 capability. 20 327 Next question: 21 "Should the CBC fulfil its role 22 in a different manner in the 23 next millennium?" 24 328 Certainly there must be changes in 25 fulfilling its role, but not its role. Technology is StenoTran 61 1 changing, but human nature does not. We will always -- 2 and I emphasize "always" -- need this effective 3 unifying force in this country. 4 329 I am involved in our local public 5 library, and we have agonized over the debate, books or 6 technology, and have concluded that one complements the 7 other rather than destroying it. It has taken some 8 inventive minds to deal with the situation. I feel 9 confident that the CBC can do likewise. 10 330 As to how well it serves on a 11 regional basis, I am not particularly qualified to 12 comment on this because there are many regions in 13 Canada. But I will say that here, our local CBC radio 14 manages, in my estimation, exceptionally well with its 15 resources. I think credit goes to local staff and 16 management. 17 331 But where is Radio Two? 18 332 Two years ago we were very excited 19 about the prospects of having both Radio One and Two. 20 What happened? 21 333 Is the answer that overused excuse, 22 budget cuts? Not a good enough one for this lady. 23 After 40 years in the classroom, I recognize "dog ate 24 my homework" explanation. 25 --- Laughter / Rires StenoTran 62 1 334 More on money later. 2 335 Should the CBC be different from 3 other broadcasters? An equivocal "yes". The CBC is 4 unique and therein lies its appeal, despite the 5 increase in advertising, which harks back again to 6 money. I am just thankful that I have a mute button. 7 336 If the CBC were not different, there 8 would be no reason for it to exist. 9 337 In the early 19th Century, a young 10 Joseph Howe(ph) made an impassioned plea in the courts 11 of Nova Scotia that the legacy to our children should 12 be an unfettered press. He was referring to 13 newspapers, but the same plea could be made today on 14 behalf of the CBC. 15 338 You ask what the differences for the 16 CBC should be. Well, it is just that: a media 17 designed to communicate to and with Canadian people, 18 free of commercial and political coercion. No shackles 19 on Terry Milewsky or "Fifth Estate", please. 20 339 There is a plethora of choice 21 provided by the private broadcasters -- an over-supply, 22 in my mind -- so why would the CBC feel compelled to 23 provide more of the same? 24 340 I gather, too, there is concern that 25 the CBC has no audience, no constituency under 30. StenoTran 63 1 Surprise? Of course not. 2 341 How many of you CBC supporters were 3 devotees in your youth? I don't think this is a big 4 problem, because even if the CBC does not capture their 5 audience until 30 or 35, they have them for the next 50 6 years. 7 342 My own children, now in their 8 thirties, are converts to CBC radio, once described 9 only as "mother's station". Whether it is fashion, 10 music, books, radio or TV, it is pretty difficult to 11 determine what the trends will be after "Friendly 12 Giant". 13 343 That is where other broadcasters can, 14 among them, do the catering. 15 344 On the topic of differences, I think 16 the CBC may already be there. I have an American 17 sister who lives in California. When I tease her about 18 being at the end of the rainbow, she tells me she is 19 not because there is no CBC or anything comparable 20 there. 21 345 I spend my summers in a part of the 22 province that has a great appeal for our southern 23 neighbours. One friend from West Virginia claims that 24 if our country offered no other attraction than having 25 the CBC, it would still draw her north each year. StenoTran 64 1 346 Another, from Boston, says that in 2 travelling north to Canada they sense the difference in 3 our two cultures as soon as the car radio picks up the 4 CBC. 5 347 Another, from North Carolina, says 6 that our radio is so civilized that the people who give 7 it a voice have class. 8 348 My sister also tells me that those 9 two satirical programs "This Hour" and "Air Farce" 10 would not likely last beyond one airing south of the 11 border. I am not anti-USA, but rather like that line 12 from the Arrogant Worms: "We don't think we are 13 better; we are just not as worse." 14 349 I have already moved to the fourth 15 question regarding the special role that the CBC should 16 play in presenting Canadian programming. Quite simply, 17 it should reflect our particular identity. And I think 18 it does very well. And there is such a thing as a 19 Canadian identity. 20 350 I don't think that the CBC should be 21 out beating the entertainment bushes to find an Oprah, 22 a Jerry Springer or a Frantic Evangelist. That is not 23 really us. We are Rex Murphy people, who find that 24 Newfoundlander's patient, polite and diplomatic probing 25 of the nation's psyches to our liking. "Ideas" and StenoTran 65 1 "Tapestry" to stimulate our minds; "Radio Noon" and 2 "Canada Today" that bring us the human interest stories 3 on ice storms; the street people; the maple syrup 4 industry; the Monsanto, or otherwise, saga; Lindsay 5 McIntyre's usually disturbing investigations of how 6 wrong we can sometimes go; Knowlton Nash still 7 commanding our attention and respect. 8 351 Who can resist "As it Happens"? I 9 was pleased to hear that they have a 12-year-old fan. 10 352 These programs are a reflection of 11 all Canadians and how we see ourselves: the good, the 12 bad, and the in between. They probably do more to 13 bring the country together than all the legislation and 14 constitutional conferences and free flags put together. 15 353 Finally, on the question of financing 16 -- the last but not the least concern. To placate our 17 demand for a continuing vigorous and meaningful CBC it 18 is not sufficient to cry budget cuts or talk about 19 market values. I know these have happened. 20 354 I decry the recent recall of some 21 foreign journalists, because I worry about where our 22 news from those places will come. 23 355 But we know there is money in Ottawa. 24 We dutifully daily and annually supply those deep 25 coffers. Oh, April is the cruellest month! It is not StenoTran 66 1 necessarily a matter of higher taxes, although one 2 caller on the Sunday evening suggested that people 3 might be willing to pay more if they had more say on 4 how the moneys are spent. 5 356 I believe that it is a question of 6 priorities with our government, and that is why I am so 7 uneasy. So much so that I have been emboldened to 8 appear here today. I believe it is the responsibility 9 of our government to see that for the CBC, there is 10 adequate funding, competent management, maintenance of 11 its high standards into the next millennium. 12 357 In viewing the Canadian cultural 13 scene, it is obvious that the CBC remains the sole 14 institution that can be described as truly Canadian. 15 358 Let me say, in conclusion, for that 16 reason alone, if we care about Canada, the CBC must 17 endure. 18 359 Thank you very much for the 19 opportunity. I feel better already. Maybe this 20 mosquito will be noticed. 21 --- Applause / Applaudissements 22 360 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 23 much, Mrs. Gilmour. We really appreciate you being 24 here today with us to share your thoughts. 25 361 Mr. Secretary. StenoTran 67 1 362 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 2 363 I would like to, once again, for the 3 record, call speakers 2 and 3 of the first ten: 4 Catherine Meyer and Rosemay Connell. 5 364 Please make yourself known to the 6 Commission if you wish to speak. 7 365 No response, Madam Chair. 8 366 THE CHAIRPERSON: Then that completes 9 the first ten. I think we will take a break at this 10 point. We will reconvene in ten minutes -- it is now 11 2:30, so precisely at 2:40 -- with our next group of 12 ten. 13 367 On va prendre une pause pour six 14 minutes. 15 --- Recess at 1440 / Suspension à 1440 16 --- Upon resuming at 1445 / Reprise à 1445 17 368 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are going to 18 reconvene. On va commencer dans quelques secondes. 19 369 I would ask the Secretary to call out 20 the names of the next ten participants and ask you to 21 come to the table, please. 22 370 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 23 371 For the next ten presenters: Liz 24 Campbell; John Lindsay; Andrew Atkins; Marjorie 25 Reynolds; Eveline St-Denis; William Scoffield; Janna StenoTran 68 1 Ramsay Best; Steve Dodson; Jean and Pamela Charron; and 2 Patricia Hatala. 3 372 Please come forward and take a 4 position at the front table. 5 1450 6 373 We will start with Liz Campbell, 7 please. 8 374 I would again ask you to try to keep 9 your comments to ten minutes and to identify yourself 10 when you first start speaking so that we will have your 11 name for the record. 12 375 Thank you. 13 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 14 376 MS CAMPBELL: I am Liz Campbell. My 15 husband and I are from Massey. CBC Radio One is our 16 lifeline to the world, our connection to news stories 17 of national and international importance. Local 18 programming keeps us in touch with information in our 19 neighbourhood. CBC Radio One is our window on the 20 world. It keeps us company from early morning to late 21 at night. The varied programming, from light to 22 serious topics, stories, interviews, all delivered by 23 journalists who have become trusted friends across the 24 airwaves, as we move through daily chores. 25 377 Even the pain of a visit to my local StenoTran 69 1 dentist is eased by hearing familiar voices as I 2 recline in the chair. 3 378 The stimulus of excellence and 4 innovative delivery of programs is a great impetus for 5 thoughtful reflection and discussion. 6 379 Our vehicle radios are tuned to CBC 7 Radio One. In fact, they are programmed to several CBC 8 airwaves so we can find it easily, whether we are 9 travelling locally in the north or on longer trips to 10 visit family in southern Ontario. 11 380 CBC gives us the connection to issues 12 and people from far and wide across this vast land. 13 381 As a relatively new Canadian citizen, 14 coming from across the pond in the early 1970s, I find 15 it a continuous marvel to hear stories from communities 16 far and wide, large and small, across Canada, and 17 indeed across the world. 18 382 As we moved from southern Ontario 19 near Stratford, it was great comfort to know CBC Radio 20 One would be moving with us. It was tough enough to 21 find out that CBC Radio Two was not available to all of 22 Canada, including Massey. We used to enjoy having the 23 option of putting our feet up and listening to a 24 symphony. 25 383 CBC Radio Two is a nice option for StenoTran 70 1 about three-quarters of the population. However, CBC 2 Radio One is definitely not an option. After all, it is 3 the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation who speaks to the 4 people of Canada, and on shortwave radio and Internet 5 across the world. 6 384 Let's make sure the CBC continues to 7 keep its integrity. 8 385 Thank you. 9 386 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 10 Campbell. 11 387 Mr. Secretary. 12 1455 13 388 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 14 389 John Lindsay, please. 15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 16 390 MR. LINDSAY: Thank you very much. 17 391 As no one has as of yet, I would like 18 to thank the CRTC for being here with us and for indeed 19 being across the country listening to our concerns and 20 perhaps some of our suggestions, as well. 21 392 I am here representing a group called 22 Concerned Canadians for Local Radio here in Sudbury. 23 Our group is made up of local citizens from the 24 professions, labour, business, government and the arts, 25 and present and former broadcasters like myself. StenoTran 71 1 393 Our membership includes those from 2 the Chamber of Commerce, Sudbury and District Labour 3 Council, Business and Professional Women's Club, and 4 the Sudbury Arts Council; as well as support from the 5 Elizabeth Fry Society, the Canadian Mental Health 6 Association, Country Music Travellers, the Metro 7 Management Board, Sudbury Family Services, Regional 8 Palliative Care, the Addiction Awareness Coalition, 9 Sudbury Rotary, Sunrisers and our agency committee, 10 Industrial Development Commission, and so on. 11 394 We have made a number of 12 interventions over the years to the CRTC, particularly 13 with respect to the concentration of ownership in 14 private radio. This has largely been allowed to take 15 place. As a result, the value of CBC radio in 16 individual communities has an even greater importance 17 than before, if only for this reason alone. 18 395 With all private stations in a 19 community speaking with one voice -- and this is pretty 20 much the situation we have forthcoming in Sudbury. It 21 is the situation now in Timmins, Sault Ste. Marie and 22 North Bay, and in many other locations across the 23 country. The importance of the CBC, this one voice 24 will be there, we hope, to offer some alternative news, 25 thought, opinion and entertainment. StenoTran 72 1 396 My history is as both a fulltime and 2 part-time broadcaster for a number of years. I was 3 just thinking that some of the other people had related 4 their experiences of the years, and recalling back, my 5 first experience was as a very young teenager in 6 Oakville -- my uncle was postmaster so I got a job in 7 the post office in Oakville -- and on Saturday 8 afternoons there was an individual who would put on the 9 CBC very loud and we would all enjoy opera. 10 397 Many of you, who are perhaps as old 11 as I, will recall opera on a Saturday afternoon. Now 12 of course we have "Definitely Not The Opera", which is 13 a fine program and I listen to it myself, although I do 14 miss the opera. Perhaps it is on CBC Two. However, as 15 indicated by many who have gone before me and likely 16 will follow, we are deficit in that regard. I will 17 talk about that later. 18 398 One of my first jobs in broadcasting 19 was at Timmins, at CKGB. Back at that time, the 20 affiliates of course carried CBC programming. I was 21 introduced to -- of course starting in the evening, as 22 most young announcers would start -- CBC Wednesday 23 night, and of course every other night on CBC, and 24 became a real fan. 25 399 You will be surprised at how many StenoTran 73 1 private broadcasters are fans of the CBC, because when 2 you basically program drivel during the whole day you 3 appreciate having something a little more enlightening 4 at the end of the day. 5 400 I want to talk about both radio -- 6 although our group is primarily concerned about radio, 7 I want to talk about TV as well, first of all, with 8 respect to the other services that have been talked 9 about -- audio, video and even web base that are 10 contemplated. 11 401 Before this happens, the provision of 12 over the air of CBC Radio Two service should be made 13 available to communities like Sudbury, which has been 14 far too long denied this service. Of course, it is 15 groups like ourselves who intervene with the CRTC if 16 other services are to be introduced before CBC Radio 17 Two services are to be made available across the 18 country. 19 402 With respect to radio, CBC radio has 20 suffered so much lately. This need not have happened. 21 We need more integration of programming, more national 22 and regional integration. This is just an idea, 23 because we do need the national programming, we do need 24 the local programming. We feel it should be 25 integrated, starting at early morning with 20 minutes StenoTran 74 1 of every hour local and regional and the other 40 2 minutes national, or perhaps vice versa, throughout the 3 week, from 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. It would utilize 4 resources better and provide a wider and more diverse 5 audience for all programming. 6 403 Of special concern is the talent. 7 Local CBC does little to promote local talent. This 8 talent should be provided a venue to showcase their 9 abilities and to enrich our communities. This did 10 occur to a limited extent at one time here in Sudbury 11 and in the north, but was given very low priority. 12 This is a cultural activity, whether it is the 13 broadcasting of a local symphony concert or choir to a 14 high school rap group or university jazz combo. 15 404 If this does not seem to fit into the 16 programming of the CBC as they see it, then perhaps 17 some government funding should go to the many 18 university stations around the country to perform this 19 service. 20 405 We have an excellent university 21 station here in town, and I am privileged to have a 22 program on that station. We do promote local talent. 23 However, I feel that this should be the role of the CBC 24 as well. If they don't do it, maybe funding should be 25 provided, as I suggest, to university stations or StenoTran 75 1 others, or perhaps private radio, as it once was 2 required to do as a condition of their licence. 3 406 This is not the case now, of course, 4 and I doubt whether that is ever going to happen again. 5 407 Moving on to TV, we feel that CBC 6 should get out of commercial broadcasting on TV. The 7 cable TV Newsworld service should be integrated with 8 the present Over the Air service to make just one 9 channel. Let the private networks and stations do the 10 lowest common denominator stuff and the CBC concentrate 11 on more worthy, quality oriented programs, even if they 12 have to repeat them because of a lack of sufficient new 13 material. 14 408 This is not really a new idea. 15 Patrick Watson suggested it just a few years ago, 16 citing an example of the Avro Aero(ph) program which 17 was seen only once or twice. 18 409 On our 500-channel universe there is 19 little danger in repeating quality programming. The 20 only advertising allowed should be PBS-type 21 announcements. 22 410 This combination should mean, or 23 would mean perhaps, that we would retain the best of 24 both the cable CTV TV, which -- 25 411 I was talking to a compatriot during StenoTran 76 1 our break and he said that Newsworld seems to be what 2 the CBC originally intended to do. Now if you don't 3 have cable, you don't get it. 4 412 By this suggestion, we would 5 amalgamate both. We would provide the service both on 6 cable and of course over the air. 7 413 The utilization of resources, there 8 doesn't seem to be too much rationalization in the 9 services. Some talk TV programs could be used on radio 10 as well and utilizing these resources more efficiently. 11 414 Vicki Gabereau disappeared. I think 12 she is on TV somewhere. I am not sure. Pamela Wallin 13 is on Newsworld, but I don't get to see it because I 14 don't have cable. Why isn't Pamela somehow on CBC 15 Radio One or Vicki on CBC Radio One? Surely talking 16 heads don't make much difference if it is on radio or 17 on TV. 18 415 Basically summarizing, I think the 19 CBC should forget about these other fancy services like 20 Internet programming and concentrate on the non-wired 21 public. Eventually, anything the CBC does well can be 22 made available on the Internet. We have streamed CBC 23 on the Internet at the present time. 24 416 It seems like they are bent on 25 developing new services while not servicing as well StenoTran 77 1 with what they have or what is available that just 2 doesn't make it up here. 3 417 It can be done. We can't afford 4 perhaps what we have now, but through the integration 5 of services, and speaking on behalf in a way of private 6 broadcasters who have been able to consolidate services 7 who have been able to integrate, who have been able to 8 really do a fairly good job as far as private 9 broadcasters are concerned. But we are talking about 10 national CBC service, local and regional CBC service, 11 which I believe can be much better than it is now; can 12 be integrated much more fully than it is now; and can 13 provide much greater service than it presently does. 14 418 Thank you very much. 15 1504 16 419 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 17 much, Mr. Lindsay. 18 420 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 19 421 Andrew Atkins, please. 20 422 Marjorie Reynolds. 21 423 Eveline St-Denis. 22 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 23 424 MS ST-DENIS: My name is Eveline 24 St-Denis, from Sudbury. I wish to thank the Committee 25 for giving me the opportunity to speak here today. I StenoTran 78 1 am grateful for the chance to exercise my democratic 2 right of free speech as guaranteed by the Canadian 3 Charter of Rights. 4 425 I am here today to voice my concern 5 regarding a certain report which was broadcast on CBC's 6 "National Magazine" on January 19, 1999, namely "Thou 7 Shalt Not Kill", by Carol Hoft(ph). 8 426 I am disappointed in Ms Hoft's 9 reporting skills. A reporter's first and foremost duty 10 is to present the facts in a clear unbiased manner. 11 All sides of an issue must be presented if the report 12 is to be just. Unfortunately, Ms Hoft opted to show 13 only one side of the issue. She adopted the pro-choice 14 view of the issue exclusively, and therefore her 15 reporting was strongly biased and prejudiced against 16 the pro-life position. 17 427 Another aspect of her reporting which 18 I find disturbing is the fact that she chose to include 19 the American view of the issue. Since the report was 20 aired on a Canadian program funded by Canadian tax 21 dollars, it seems to me that this constitutes a misuse 22 of Canadian tax funds. 23 428 The abortion issue in the United 24 Stats is much different from the Canadian issue. 25 Canadian pro-lifers do not advocate the use of StenoTran 79 1 violence. I am appalled at Ms Hoft's misconstruing the 2 Canadian abortion issue by including an Americanized 3 view of the subject. 4 429 In a country where we clamour for 5 more Canadian content, the mixing of American views 6 with a Canadian issue is definitely a misunderstanding 7 of what Canadian content really means. Ms Hoft did not 8 allocate sufficient time to the Canadian pro-lifers to 9 state their position. 10 430 Jim Hughes, President of Campaign 11 Life, was allowed two minutes in a two-hour long 12 program. He is a key member of the Canadian Pro-Life 13 Movement and is definitely in a position to give an 14 exact picture of the pro-life mentality in this 15 country. 16 431 It seems to me that life and the 17 right to it is such an important and insensitive issue 18 that reports of this nature should be closely 19 scrutinized by the CBC to ensure quality reporting on a 20 national television corporation. 21 432 If the CBC is to allow reports such 22 as those of Ms Hoft's, it should also air reports to 23 support family values. Programs which would inform the 24 Canadian public on the beauty of life from its 25 conception, with presentations by Canadian geneticists StenoTran 80 1 to obstetricians, would certainly add more balance in 2 the presentation of this issue. 3 433 Why not see pregnancy as beautiful 4 any more? This approach would also be more educational 5 and would inform the Canadian public instead of playing 6 on people's emotions. 7 434 I believe a well informed Canadian 8 public would be well equipped to make a fair choice in 9 this issue. The CBC could rectify the biased reporting 10 by presenting the Pro-life Vigil on Parliament Hill on 11 May 14th to remember the 30th anniversary of the 12 Supreme Court ruling striking down the previously 13 existing Canadian law prohibiting abortion. Thousands 14 of Canadians will be present in a show of solidarity 15 and the right to life for every Canadian, from 16 conception to natural death. 17 435 I would certainly hope that the CBC 18 will be present on Parliament Hill on May 14, 1999. 19 436 I find the CBC is falling short on 20 its mandate when it fails to give unbiased reporting. 21 On the other hand, I do see a striving to protect 22 Canadian culture and buffer us from an overwhelming 23 tide of American influence in certain programs. 24 437 In the new millennium I believe the 25 CBC should strive to present television programming StenoTran 81 1 that encourages family values and morals and that 2 discourages violence. Children at this time are being 3 destroyed or mixed up by false misleading statements. 4 They need to know the truth and nothing but the truth. 5 438 The diversity of Canada's regions 6 needs to be respected and presented as they are, for 7 this will stimulate national pride. It will also 8 preserve small communities and the uniqueness of their 9 ways. This will also help to promote family values, 10 which are usually very strong in smaller centres. 11 439 The programming provided by CBC 12 should be different than that of other broadcasters. 13 Due to the fact that it is a publicly owned and funded 14 corporation, the CBC has a duty to preserve, promote 15 and exemplify Canadian culture and values. The CBC 16 should be a leader in the promotion of everything that 17 is good and beautiful in this country. 18 440 Since Canada has been named by the 19 United Nations as the best country in the world to live 20 in, the CBC should help to preserve this international 21 status by encouraging the adherence to strong family 22 values and non-violence. 23 441 I wish to thank the CRTC for allowing 24 me to speak on such important issues. 25 442 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Madam StenoTran 82 1 St-Denis. 2 1510 3 443 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 4 444 William Scoffield, please. 5 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 6 445 MR. SCOFFIELD: "Enter the church 7 organist with long thin face", said Bernard Shaw. I 8 guess that's me, Bill Scoffield, with fortissimo in the 9 middle. 10 446 I am the organist at St. Andrew's 11 United Church, Peterborough, graduate of 35 years of 12 secondary school teaching of math and music, and still 13 teaching a lot of piano, vocal, theory and that sort of 14 thing to both big and little. I speak for myself and 15 possibly me wife. 16 447 Whoever gets up first turns on the 17 radio -- to Radio One, of course. We love Radio Two, 18 but we seldom have time for it, because we are too busy 19 listening to Radio One. 20 448 Distinguished members of the CRTC and 21 friends, thank you for this wonderful opportunity to 22 address you after all my 5,000 e-mails to "CBC Input". 23 449 The questions, or shall I say the 24 answers: In my view, without knowing precisely the 25 duties as prescribed by Parliament, the CBC does most StenoTran 83 1 of the things it should as a national public 2 broadcaster extremely well and then some. 3 450 Changes I would like to see for the 4 new millennium, as you asked, or any time in the 5 future, I will mention in a moment. 6 451 The CBC serves the public rather well 7 on a regional level, I think, but I wish I could avoid 8 the Toronto traffic reports somehow, except on the few 9 days a year when I travel there. 10 452 The programming provided by the CBC 11 should definitely be different from the public 12 broadcasters. The CBC, please, must do what the 13 privates are not doing. 14 453 My wife warned me that I shouldn't 15 use that word for them, because there might be some old 16 men on the board who would know what "the privates" 17 are. 18 454 In any rate, we must no do what the 19 privates are doing. What they do should be done 20 without advertising, not even the fund raising that 21 plagues TV Zero and the American PBS. What is the 22 point of having a public broadcaster doing what the 23 privates are doing? 24 455 I believe that when private 25 broadcasters can provide uncut Canadian films, all StenoTran 84 1 those lovely things made by our Canadian directors and 2 companies and the National Film Board -- when they 3 provide those without interruption, all the ones we 4 can't see in our own movie theatres, when the privates 5 can provide the public affairs programs that CBC radio 6 currently has without being beholden to businesses, 7 when the privates can provide serious music -- oh, oh, 8 what a word, but there is no other available. When 9 they can provide serious music and lots of nostalgic 10 music, like Adrian Schuman(ph), without advertising; 11 when the privates can present our Canadian symphonies 12 and writers as the CBC does now -- or did until 13 "Morningside" and "Vicki Gabereau" disappeared -- then 14 maybe we won't need the CBC. 15 456 And that kind of answers your fourth 16 question too. 17 457 Here are my suggestions for some 18 changes. 19 458 For goodness sake, let's have more 20 funds for radio; and second, and very important, let's 21 take away the political control that is so 22 objectionable. 23 459 There should be a board governing the 24 CBC -- and I have no idea how it is made up at the 25 moment. The board should be made up of representatives StenoTran 85 1 from any number of important organizations, like just 2 one please from the Canadian Chamber of Commerce and 3 one from the Council of Canadians and the National 4 Citizens Coalition, and all the other similar 5 organizations. But the Musicians Union should have a 6 couple of people there, and one representing each of 7 the major professions -- not forgetting the Royal 8 Canadian College of Organists, please -- and one 9 representing the popular -- 10 460 Of course, there is going to be too 11 large a board. There are going to be thousands of 12 people. They can get together every two years -- at 13 their own expense, please -- and elect an inner board 14 of the same size as the present one, without all that 15 political meddling. That board, to me, should have 16 complete power, such as raising its own funds like the 17 school boards in Ontario used to do and appoint its own 18 executive officers without politics interfering. 19 461 Just one rule: no salaries for 20 anybody larger than a sitting MP, perhaps the PM's 21 salary for the head boy. 22 462 The gold-plated advisors in Ottawa 23 can certainly figure out exactly how to do all of this 24 -- that is what they are paid for -- but our national 25 broadcaster must not be obligated in any way to them. StenoTran 86 1 At the same time, because the CBC will probably only 2 serve the minority that really cares about the country 3 and culture and all of the rest, there must be some 4 protection from disruptions that could result if a new 5 CBC had to "go to the people" directly for their funds. 6 463 It is not hard to think that the 7 majority of Canadians -- and that majority is 8 increasing all the time, I think -- would not see the 9 value of what we have and what we have had, and they 10 could easily end it. 11 464 It is like the French population in 12 Quebec. It is a minority, a minority there that 13 Parliament and the rest of Canadians protect; and it is 14 a minority of Canadians who really use the CBC as it 15 was intended. We can't afford to lose it. 16 465 Some will call my viewpoints elitist, 17 especially when you hear what else I would like to see 18 happen, but I don't feel that I am a member of any 19 elite, believe me. 20 466 Just because the majority of 21 Canadians actually listen to what is called pop radio, 22 to use a very poorly chosen term, because it means what 23 I play isn't popular -- which it is -- it doesn't mean 24 that we should have no CBC. It does mean that CBC 25 radio does not need to plug pop music, from my point of StenoTran 87 1 view, at all. 2 467 Where else can we find the 3 information we need in order to be participating 4 citizens if our daily lives are so rushed, as mine 5 seems to be even in retirement, that we hardly have 6 time to read a newspaper. What a godsend to anybody 7 who spends much time commuting is the CBC radio. We 8 need it. 9 468 And talking heads, to the gentlemen 10 who just spoke from Sudbury, do make a difference if 11 they are on the radio. You don't need to watch them 12 while you are driving your car. And that's a real 13 plus. 14 469 I would like to see CBC TV much more 15 like TV Zero used to be. If that means CTV does 16 "Hockey Night in Canada", so be it. Maybe in the 17 interests of true Canadian culture, the CBC should 18 continue with "Hockey Night in Canada" and simply 19 distribute it freely to all local stations provided it 20 is presented with no ads. 21 470 Especially this might be a time to 22 ask if the national game, at least in Canada, should be 23 organized around the current advertising, as it is, 24 instead of the opposite. To me, the advertising should 25 surround the game, not the game surround the StenoTran 88 1 advertising. This is a terrible situation for our 2 national game. 3 471 I believe the CBC and our taxpayers 4 have a way to change that. 5 472 What I regard as even more terrible 6 concerns Radio One -- I forgot to turn my watch on -- 7 which has to many excellent current affairs programs 8 that I seldom have it off, not even when Bill 9 Richardson is on, except during DNTO, of course, when I 10 have the opera on. 11 473 What a jolt when just after you have 12 heard an interview with some exceptional person that 13 CBC has no trouble finding -- like the people here 14 today -- after an unbelievable gold mine of information 15 or culture, or whatever, the interviewer says "oh, we 16 are out of time", and the wonderful web of intricate 17 thought is shattered by some hick, hayseed three-note 18 endlessly drummed so-called music that sounds more like 19 a murder. 20 474 If it is an all news and information 21 station, let's leave out any music, because we 22 obviously can't agree on what the music should be -- 23 including those mindless themes. If there must be 24 theme music and those jarring little four-note 25 dissonances on the hour, how about fair representation StenoTran 89 1 of other musical forms than electronic. Use the 2 electronic stuff on Monday when I am busy playing 3 hockey; Mozart on Tuesday; pipe organ stuff on 4 Wednesday -- and I will play all you want for $40 an 5 hour. 6 475 Yes, I am serious. No music on Radio 7 One, please, because anything a person doesn't like 8 spoils the quality of what is there. If you have to 9 fill up the holes while the announcers or the hosts, or 10 whatever they are, take a breath, have a Bob Johnson 11 historical comment again. 12 476 Did you hear the solo bassoon on "As 13 It Happens Last Night"? What class to hear just a 14 bassoon chuckling away after some interview or other, 15 that I have even forgotten already. Short-term memory 16 problems, I tell you. 17 477 For 35 years of teaching secondary 18 school music, math and English, I think there were 19 always two or three programs listed on the blackboard 20 every day for every student. What pride I had writing 21 those on the blackboard. "Don't miss this, kids." And 22 they listened to me. 23 478 I was so gratified when out of a 24 class of 30 you had two or three at the end of the year 25 say "thanks for introducing us to that radio station". StenoTran 90 1 I always felt able to recommend CBC radio, either 2 branch, to students any time. 3 479 I often felt I was a salesman for the 4 CBC, with no regrets. And they never even knew. 5 480 The students who tuned in were the 6 winners. But now I would not recommend CBC One for 7 information or music, because the kids I am trying to 8 teach great music to are just hearing too much of the 9 same sort of stuff that is permeating Radio One. Some 10 would argue that pop music reflects modern taste, but I 11 feel it only shows how impoverished our children are 12 that they would turn to the mindless crap that 13 masquerades as music throughout our country. 14 481 How can our children develop good 15 taste -- whatever that is -- if they are only served 16 junk food? 17 482 I have six more burning desires, 18 which I hope I can fit in my ten minutes -- or am I 19 over already? -- whatever good this might do, in spite 20 of what the costs might be. 21 483 First, why can't a national 22 broadcaster have the same radio frequency across the 23 country, or three or four or five frequencies, so that 24 travellers like me, who spend five hours in the car 25 getting here, don't have to go through five separate StenoTran 91 1 frequencies to keep tuned in to Michael Enright. Bless 2 him. 3 484 Second, why can't we have all the 4 French TV with English subtitles -- I get a lot of 5 French TV on my dish and on my aerial -- and vice 6 versa, at least for the newscasts, so that those of who 7 want to experience some French have something down at 8 the bottom to go by. That would be very cheap. 9 485 They even have it in our health club, 10 a guy talking -- and you can't hear him because it's 11 the health club and the music is too loud. Down at the 12 bottom are the subtitles. 13 486 Along the same lines, how about Cross 14 -- it should be called "Happy Country Check-up", seven 15 days a week, and all the French radio stations as well, 16 with simultaneous translations both ways so our two 17 solitudes can at last speak to each other. And Rex 18 gets no holidays. Well, I would be happy to stand in 19 for him a couple of times just for fun, if anybody else 20 could stand it. 21 487 Third, is there some way we can avoid 22 personalities becoming so important? I am sure there 23 are many academics in Canada who would love to plan a 24 week of ideas -- and would probably do it for the love 25 of it, if you want to save some money. And why can't StenoTran 92 1 we hear less of those hosts during the day and more 2 freelance interviewers? 3 488 Often the hosts and/or interviewers 4 seem to get in the way of the ideas flowing from their 5 subjects. If there were no shows and they were 6 nameless, like CKO All News Radio used to be, the hosts 7 would not own them and use them as a base for 8 popularity. 9 489 I quote from the Albany Institute, I 10 believe, down in New York State: 11 "Pity the country that needs 12 heroes." 13 490 The guy's first name is Herman. You 14 will have to look it up. 15 491 Fourth, it was Perrin Beatty who said 16 just a few days ago that a CBC Three was being planned 17 for young people. Spare us. All you have is for young 18 people. It is the best quality stuff there is, and 19 don't give them anything less, please. The whole CBC 20 has been drummed down, at least Radio One, over the 21 last few years just to attract those who will never be 22 interested anyway. 23 492 Give us the best material you can so 24 that those of us who have a little influence with 25 young folk -- if any -- can hold up what you do with StenoTran 93 1 pride and not seem loony when a younger person does 2 follow our advice. Why can't listening to CBC become 3 almost an expectation of adulthood and participatory 4 citizenship in Canada? Well, maybe not for absolutely 5 everyone. 6 493 I can just imagine a CBC for the 7 younger generation. Endless DNTO. That's what the 8 privates do. Leave it to them. 9 494 Fifth, if there is to be a CBC 10 Three, why not make it a strictly call-in station with 11 no hosts, no announcements and as little editing as 12 possible, like the news groups and e-mail lists on the 13 Internet. 14 495 For example, if I have something to 15 say -- like I always have -- I call the number. I have 16 three minutes. My message is checked for profanity and 17 hate messages, and broadcast. The phones are open 18 until the available time on CBC Three is used, and then 19 shut down. 20 496 Think of that. The budget for that 21 station would be like three million bucks a year. 22 Allow us to speak to each other as Canadians without 23 interference. 24 497 Along the same lines, have you any 25 idea how I would love to hear that little church choir StenoTran 94 1 out in Nanaimo singing Stayner's(ph) Crucifixion, 2 however badly, to compare with my own. And I would 3 like them to hear my choir from my church with 4 octogenarians singing Stayner's Crucifixion or some 5 other miraculous work of music. 6 498 How about a CBC Four with no Robert 7 Coopers or Howard Dicks deciding what is good enough 8 for national consumption. Amateurs deserve to be heard 9 much more than they are. I can't think of a better 10 vehicle than a low budget nation-wide station that 11 simply plays recordings submitted by amateurs with no 12 production budget whatever. This would work with a TV 13 station too, with videotape from all our schools and 14 local dramatic groups. 15 499 The little town of Cobourg has about 16 four musicals a year -- Carousel, Music Man, you name 17 it -- and that stuff should be going out to all the 18 other groups in Canada that can't get to Cobourg. 19 What's wrong with that? 20 500 What does CBC TV cost -- $900 million 21 a year or something crazy? And all the amateurs of the 22 country go begging, like me. I play organ recitals 23 almost for free. Have you ever heard of me? You have 24 today. 25 501 And you can do it regionally, too, StenoTran 95 1 like the man from Sudbury said. This kind of thing can 2 go a long way towards building national unity, provided 3 the French and English are not put on separate 4 networks. 5 502 I love French Canadian music, and you 6 can be sure it is just as good at the low level as it 7 is at the professional level. 8 503 Finally -- well, not quite finally -- 9 there is no point in having the treasure we have unless 10 it is advertised. Every daily, weekly or monthly 11 newspaper or magazine in the country should carry CBC 12 radio program listings in full. It would only take a 13 few column inches. 14 504 How can you grow an audience if the 15 audience does not know you exist? And many don't. I 16 have dealt with high school students, 5,000 of them 17 over my career, and only maybe 500 knew of the CBC. 18 The rest learned about it maybe from me and my 19 colleagues. 20 505 The present advertising in The Globe 21 and Saturday Night is not detailed enough and certainly 22 seems too restrictive in the audience it reaches. 23 506 I must not leave out the Web site and 24 Victoria Wilcox's e-mails. They are absolutely 25 wonderful things that need to be kept up. Being able StenoTran 96 1 to get "Quirks and Quarks" off the web site a year 2 after you have heard the program so that you can 3 convince your 35-year-old child that yes, this was a 4 truly scientific report, not just your father's weak 5 memory in remembering something valuable. 6 507 That is wonderful stuff. Please keep 7 it up, along with all the other wonderful stuff that 8 comes to our homes from one of the only businesses I 9 know that is truly loved by many of its customers. 10 508 Additionally, whatever the CBC 11 presents, I believe radio or TV should be paid for, 12 purchased with full rights, so that when I call Lister 13 Sinclair to use one of his plays in my church for 14 Christmas Eve, we don't have to pay him; it has already 15 been paid. 16 509 Thanks. I really appreciate this 17 opportunity. I hope I didn't blow it. 18 510 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 19 much, Mr. Scoffield. 20 511 Mr. Secretary. 21 1525 22 512 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 23 513 Mrs. Janna Ramsay Best, please. 24 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 25 514 MRS. JANNA RAMSAY BEST: My name is StenoTran 97 1 Janna Ramsay Best. I apologize for my voice; I have 2 just recovered from the flu and this may not turn out 3 very well. 4 515 Thank you for this opportunity to 5 express my views on the CBC. 6 516 I am here as an independent listener 7 and viewer. I do not represent any group. I feel 8 strongly that for our democracy to work, to enable 9 citizens to make informed choices, we must have 10 informed independent media coverage of everything that 11 goes on in the public domain in Canada. 12 517 We have seen the concentration of 13 ownership of newspapers in the hands of Conrad Black. 14 We have seen the increased funding from the public 15 purse of commercial radio and television, at the same 16 time as those private enterprises which the demise of 17 the CBC. 18 518 First, I have to explain that I am an 19 avid radio listener, like so many other people here, 20 and most of my remarks are concerned with CBC radio. 21 519 In 1993 the Liberal government 22 promised stable funding for the CBC. This did not 23 happen. 24 520 In 1996 I wrote to the Hon. Sheila 25 Copps about my concerns over the apparent dismantling StenoTran 98 1 of the CBC, and I quote: 2 "Madam Minister, I am writing to 3 tell you how upset I am at the 4 demolition of the CBC radio." 5 521 Remember, this was in 1996. 6 "When I first came to Canada 7 from Scotland in 1961, CBC radio 8 was one of the most important 9 means of learning about Canada 10 for a new young immigrant. Over 11 the last 35 years I have been a 12 faithful, grateful, critical but 13 never indifferent listener. I 14 cannot tell you how much I have 15 appreciated so many of the 16 hundreds of truly professional 17 broadcasters on CBC radio." (As 18 read) 19 522 In 1962 a friend had a similar 20 experience when she arrived in Saskatchewan from 21 Yugoslavia, and I quote her. She said: 22 "CBC was the most important 23 aspect in my life, providing a 24 cultural window into Canada, my 25 new country, and connecting me StenoTran 99 1 to the world, especially in the 2 isolation of the prairie 3 winter." (As read) 4 523 She has been a supporter of CBC radio 5 ever since. 6 524 Continuing to quote from my 1996 7 letter to Sheila Copps, because it is relevant -- 8 although you might not think so: 9 "Our local radio station here in 10 Sudbury has been (inaudible) by 11 several people. CBC Northern 12 Ontario serves a huge 13 geographical area, but now the 14 links between the various 15 scattered municipalities are 16 being severed. What is 17 happening to the links and the 18 communication in northeastern 19 Ontario is the same as to Canada 20 as a whole. We are losing the 21 ability to learn about each 22 other and to keep in touch. It 23 has been said that the airwaves 24 of connecting CBC across Canada 25 were the 20th century equivalent StenoTran 100 1 to the railways of the 19th 2 Century, the ties that bind us 3 together." (As read) 4 525 Somebody else mentioned that too. 5 "Before you demolish the CBC, 6 Madam Minister..." 7 526 This is still my writing to Sheila 8 Copps: 9 "...what have you got to replace 10 it? The Internet? As I am sure 11 you know, the Internet is 12 without allegiance and without 13 boundaries, which is fine for 14 some purposes, but it does not 15 help to define our community. 16 These links are being cut, not 17 only between communities in 18 northern Ontario and Canada as a 19 whole; now the rest of the world 20 will not be able to receive 21 information from and about, as 22 the Prime Minister kept 23 reiterating, the best country in 24 the world." (As read) 25 527 That, I am glad to say, has changed StenoTran 101 1 since 1996. 2 "We, my husband and I, have 3 spent extensive periods abroad 4 when Radio Canada International 5 offered our only chance of 6 receiving news about Canada. In 7 the Caribbean, Italy, Israel, 8 Ireland, Belgium and Britain, 9 none of the newspapers, nor TV, 10 nor radio, ever covered events 11 in Canada. Radio Canada 12 International was our lifeline. 13 "Saturday Afternoon at the 14 Opera" has been a constant in 15 our family. My grown-up 16 children learned to love opera 17 from these broadcasts long 18 before they ever saw and heard 19 an opera live." (As read) 20 528 Here we don't get Radio Two, as 21 everybody is complaining, unless you have it on cable. 22 That is the only way we can hear it now. 23 529 Sheila Copps wrote back that far from 24 dismantling the CBC, she was ensuring that funding 25 would be continued. This has not happened. Funding StenoTran 102 1 has been cut yet again. Just because members of the 2 government do not like the CBC is not sufficient reason 3 for dismantling an organization that still could be of 4 great service to the unity of our country. 5 530 The Internet can be used to 6 disseminate information about Canada. My daughter, a 7 doctoral student at the University of Chicago, is very 8 grateful to be able to listen to CBC radio in real 9 audio on-line. 10 531 The Internet, however, is just a 11 conduit. It is the CBC that provides the content. 12 532 I find something quite hypocritical, 13 incidentally , about the Honourable Minister's 14 bleatings recently about threatened Canadian culture 15 when she speaks on behalf of Canadian magazines that 16 are fighting the Canadian editions of American 17 magazines that offer advertising space at reduced 18 rates. 19 533 Please don't misunderstand me. I 20 sympathize with the Canadian magazines' position. What 21 I am criticizing is that, in this case, the Government 22 of Canada seems to be defending Canadian culture while 23 in the case of the CBC the government is destroying the 24 CBC's role as another important purveyor, or possible 25 purveyor, of Canadian culture. StenoTran 103 1 534 I am not finished with my letters. 2 535 I wrote to Perrin Beatty in 1997 and 3 said to him: 4 "On the back of my prized CBC 5 northern Ontario shirt are the 6 names of communities, large and 7 small, in northeastern Ontario 8 which are linked to me and my 9 community of Sudbury by the 10 magic of radio: Atiwapiscat, 11 Britt, Chapleau, Tomogami and 12 Timmins, Mattawa, Mendemoya and 13 Moosenee; Foleyet, Fort Albany 14 and Fraserdale; and a dozen 15 more. To paraphrase Ian Brown's 16 comments on his final Sunday 17 morning in 1997: Though we are 18 all in different places, radio 19 at its best brings us all 20 together." (As read) 21 536 In that same year, 1997, the devoted 22 listeners of CBC Northern Ontario lost some of their 23 beast radio people to the cuts. With the departure of 24 Wolf Hess(ph), David Henley(ph), Bonita Heart(ph), 25 Peter Williams and others, who have not been replaced, StenoTran 104 1 this area has been done a great disservice. 2 537 The summer is always the time when we 3 listen to the radio at camp. For people who don't live 4 in this area, that means cottage. 5 538 It is the time of the best of -- that 6 is, repeats of -- "Morningside", "Double Exposure", 7 "Gabereau", "Ideas", "Sunday Morning". I always 8 appreciated hearing those repeats, because the original 9 programs were good and worth hearing again; or hearing 10 them for the first time, if I had missed them earlier. 11 539 In that summer of 1997, I listened to 12 the reprised programs with a real sense of loss, as 13 most of my favourite broadcasters disappeared from CBC 14 radio. Linda Cullen and Bob Robertson; Ian Brown; 15 Vicki Gabereau; Peter Gzowski; Clyde Gilmer(ph) -- the 16 late lamented Clyde Gilmer -- and many others. 17 540 Can poor Sheila Rogers, I asked in 18 1997, good as she really is, really be expected to fill 19 in for so many people? 20 541 It takes years to build up the high 21 standard that these professional broadcasters and their 22 talented producers maintained week after week, year 23 after year. Who will replace them, I asked? What will 24 be the future of Canadian public broadcasting? 25 542 Please note that that was all written StenoTran 105 1 in June of 1997. I did not receive a reply. 2 543 Now, in March 1999, almost two years 3 later, we have seen the future. Are the places on my 4 CBC shirt, a quaint reminder of a time when places were 5 once joined together by radio, just as a century ago 6 places were joined by the railway, just like all those 7 names carved around the walls of the centra concourse 8 of Union Station in Toronto. 9 544 Craig Mackie(ph) and the producers 10 and broadcasters at CBC Northern Ontario radio are 11 soldiering on as best they can. Marcus Schwabie(ph) 12 and "The Morning North" is good at encouraging people 13 to phone in from the whole region to give their views 14 of events in the area, or news and weather conditions, 15 and any other item that would be of interest or benefit 16 to the community at large. 17 545 In the afternoon Barry Mercer gives 18 publicity to events going on in the area, and he 19 interviews people of interest. But gone are the days 20 when concerts of the Sudbury Symphony or a choir in 21 North Bay, or a pow-pow in Manitoulin Island would be 22 recorded and then broadcast on the radio. 23 546 The cuts in programming that I so 24 bewailed in June 1997 have turned out to be even worse 25 than I anticipated. Repeats of programs are no longer StenoTran 106 1 "The Best Of"; they are what fill up hours of air time 2 on Radio One or Two. 3 547 For example, I heard Stuart MacLean 4 and "The Vinyl Cafe", which I enjoy, on Radio One one 5 day and on Radio Two the next. 6 548 In addition to all these repeats, 7 poor Bill Richardson, a most professional broadcaster, 8 has been given the task of hosting a program which 9 consists of repeats. 10 549 Local, regional and national CBC 11 radio must be given the resources to fulfil the mandate 12 to promote understanding and knowledge of Canada by 13 Canadians. 14 550 In our house we do not watch much 15 television, but we do watch CBC Newsworld, because we 16 have cable, and RDI on a regular basis. I think the 17 news services partially fills a need for Canadian 18 coverage of current events, both at home and abroad. 19 However, resources are limited and there are very few 20 foreign correspondents. 21 551 Ironically, I keep seeing these ads 22 on TVO for the Globe and Mail, emphasizing how many 23 foreign correspondents they have. 24 552 CBC television, I think, should be 25 given the chance to fulfil its mandate to unite StenoTran 107 1 Canadians by telling every kind of Canadian story. The 2 type of programming could be like a combination of 3 perhaps TVO and PBS and specialty channels, such as The 4 History Channel, plus another element that must 5 experience a vision of what Canada is. 6 553 I think it should be the specialty 7 channel for Canada, not just for "Hockey Night in 8 Canada" and "Wind at My Back", but also about industry 9 and commerce, mining and fishing, for all the arts, 10 showing plays and films, including the thousands of 11 National Film Board films that are so difficult to find 12 elsewhere these days. 13 554 And opera. We have all these 14 wonderful young singers, like Ben Hepner(ph), all over 15 the world. And pop concerts of all kinds from all 16 parts of the country. We are all happy that Céline 17 Dion and Alanis Morrissette and Shania Twain have done 18 so well in the USA, and they, like Don Messer and Anne 19 Murray and Rita MacNeil before them, are all part of 20 the puzzle that is Canada. 21 555 TV Canada, as I imagine it, would 22 also show Canadians from coast to coast to coast how 23 people live in different parts of the country, what the 24 country itself looks like, its geography, its history; 25 and it should be unique, independent, fair and StenoTran 108 1 impartial, not an arm of government, and not trying to 2 compete with the commercial networks. 3 556 The commercial networks have 4 different priorities. They want to make money. What I 5 perceive as CBC's role is to make and keep a country: 6 Canada. 7 557 Thank you. 8 558 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 9 much, Mrs. Best. Thank you for being here, especially 10 when you are not feeling that well. We really 11 appreciate it. 12 559 Mr. Secretary. 13 1540 14 560 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 15 561 Mr. Steve Dodson, please. 16 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 17 562 MR. DODSON: Thank you. My name is 18 Steve Dodson. I am a member of the CBC audience who 19 normally likes to lurk out there in the vacuum land of 20 Alan McPhie and not speaking out at public policy 21 consultations. I am not politically active, 22 financially sophisticated, or media-wise. 23 563 I am here because I feel people like 24 me must speak now, as people have been wonderfully 25 speaking this afternoon, or be prepared to live in the StenoTran 109 1 ringing silence of a friendly voice gone mute. I am 2 determined in the next few minutes to make up for my 3 past failures to speak out, so that I don't end up 4 echoing Joni Mitchell's wonderful Canadian lyrics: 5 "Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what 6 you got till its gone." 7 564 I am an American, or should I say I 8 was an American. Like Janna Best, I come from another 9 country. I was a graduate of an Indiana primary school 10 when I arrived with my family in Aylmer, Quebec. I was 11 eager to learn about my new surroundings, and I quickly 12 became a fan of CBO Radio and CBOT television from 13 Ottawa. 14 565 I remember being impressed, as a 15 grade 9 student, by the originality of Percy Saltzman, 16 the weatherman from Toronto, and "Front Page 17 Challenge". 18 566 More recently, I have been privileged 19 to tune in to the story of the "Avro Aero", "Emily of 20 New Moon", "Royal Canadian Air Farce", and many others; 21 the national news on "Magazine", as well as numerous 22 Newsworld documentaries deliver an in-depth 23 understanding of the world and events all over the 24 world that is fascinating and not elsewhere. 25 567 But I am not here to say more about StenoTran 110 1 CBC television, because it is the radio side of CBC 2 that has entered into the fabric of my life, woven into 3 my lifestyle. The excellence and essential vibrancy of 4 CBC radio need to be specifically flagged, pointed out 5 and honoured. All too often, when people talk about 6 the CBC in a policy sense, they are talking about TV 7 first and foremost, with radio thrown in as an 8 afterthought. 9 568 CBC radio is the most cost-effective 10 way to assert national identity and let Canadians 11 everywhere know each other. It is the best way for 12 Canadians everywhere in the world to stay in touch with 13 each other, to hear each other's stories. 14 569 In my early years in my new country I 15 became sensitized to something special in the Canadian 16 character through CBC radio. There was a Canadian 17 voice which possessed qualities which I had not heard 18 before. 19 570 When I became a Canadian citizen, I 20 was living up in John Lindsay's CBKB territory in 21 Timmins. And as John mentioned, CBC radio was carried 22 for two hours in the evening on that station. But that 23 was long enough to bring the whole world to me through 24 the unique looking glass of a brand new kind of radio 25 called "As it Happens". StenoTran 111 1 571 When we got our own northern Ontario 2 CBC radio station right here in Sudbury, serving 3 northeastern Ontario, I was a high school physics 4 teacher in North Bay. Two years later my life was 5 changed by this new local service, when I learned about 6 something called the Sudbury Science Centre Project. 7 As a result of tuning in and being informed, I became a 8 member of the study team that developed what has become 9 Science North, and I soon moved to Sudbury to become a 10 staff member. 11 572 This is only one example of many 12 important developments that I became aware of, and 13 stayed in tune with, by tuning into CBC radio. 14 Regional CBC radio is so effective it is life changing. 15 573 My life has changed again. Now I am 16 an entrepreneur, and CBC radio is a companion, from 17 rising in the early morning to late evening. I own a 18 bunch of radios, and nobody is going to be surprised 19 that they are all tuned to CBC. It doesn't matter if 20 the knobs fall right off of them. 21 574 When I am driving through northern 22 Ontario, I do know where and when to change the 23 frequency so I don't miss the conversation. And 24 sometimes when I am on an errand, I have to postpone 25 going into the store or meeting, or whatever, waiting StenoTran 112 1 in the parking lot for a particularly interesting 2 conversation or report to end. 3 575 CBC radio stimulates me when I need 4 stimulating and relaxes me when I need relaxing. It 5 entertains, challenges and, as so many have mentioned 6 today, it expands horizons. 7 576 Commercial radio stations, with their 8 play lists from Toronto and the aggravating staccato of 9 commercial messages, are just not an option for me. 10 Big city Canadians may not be aware what a vital link 11 CBC represents to northerners, although they certainly 12 are if they heard earlier presenters today. 13 577 It is often said that the CBC radio 14 audience is aging. In the words of the young, duh! 15 Have the utterers not heard of the news? The whole 16 population is aging! 17 --- Laughter / Rires 18 578 Perhaps CBC listener demographics are 19 just keeping up with the times. Besides, in my house, 20 the second-best listener is my teenage son, even though 21 every other station in the town caters to youthful 22 tastes. This is something I discovered; I did not 23 instigate -- that is, my son being a CBC fan. 24 579 I became aware of the dimensions of 25 this country and the richness of its cultural diversity StenoTran 113 1 through CBC radio more than by any other way. I have 2 met myriads of individuals from every part of Canada, 3 becoming of their lives, circumstances and concerns. I 4 have become aware of artists, writers and performers 5 who might have remained unknown to me until they 6 enriched me through the medium of CBC radio. 7 580 That would even include writers and 8 contenders for the Governor General's literary prize 9 and native performers, such as Susan Aglukark, 10 Cashtin(ph), Robbie Robertson, and many others. 11 581 There is much more than information 12 and music. There is drama and comedy. There is the 13 opportunity to look at life through someone else's 14 eyes, to walk in shoes very different from our own. 15 582 For example, while I was putting my 16 thoughts down on paper preparing to come here, there 17 was in the background on CBC radio a rich, articulate 18 and extremely perceptive portrayal of the world 19 experienced by a very gifted person who happened to be 20 an autistic adult. Without CBC radio, I would not have 21 been remotely aware that that world existed and would 22 not have entered into that person's world for sure. My 23 own world would have been a little bit smaller than it 24 now is. 25 583 The most average of Canadians, near StenoTran 114 1 and far, have frequently become extraordinary when we 2 saw them through the eyes of great CBC radio 3 interviewers. Great interviewers such as Peter Gzowski 4 and Vicki Gabereau did it best. I am also, as Janna 5 was, saddened that they have moved on. I suspect it 6 was because they saw support for what they were doing 7 drying up because of financial pressures. 8 584 Vicki Gabereau's protege, Bill 9 Richardson, is doing a wonderful job with the mandate 10 that he has. I believe that he has absorbed a lot of 11 Vicki's skill and could do the in-depth interviews if 12 he were given the chance to do more than collect re- 13 runs. 14 585 This is the best public radio in the 15 world. I think CBC's mandate should be to do what CBC 16 radio has been doing so well. Not being sophisticated 17 in matters of public policy and finance, I am going to 18 find it easier to comment on mandate by telling a 19 simple fable in which Canada is represented by a little 20 farm town, and the idea of mandate is represented by 21 the word chore. 22 586 You will easily understand what else 23 is represented in this fable. 24 587 Charlie B. Sear ran the best family 25 farm in town, and folks came from all around to see how StenoTran 115 1 his farm prospered and how he regularly introduced 2 successful new crops. He always brought the most 3 nutritious produce to market, and his land and home 4 were pleasant to the eye. Charles relied on his two 5 sons, Ron and Tom, in the running of the farm. Young 6 Tom was stout, strong and tall. His older brother Ron 7 was lean, wiry and intense. When people came to visit 8 Charlie, they always noticed Tom because he had a 9 certain visual presence. As visitors chatted with 10 Charlie and Tom, the opinion spread through the town 11 that the success of the Sear farm was mostly due to big 12 Tom. People didn't notice the lean figure of Ron out 13 in the fields or barn, toiling until the last chore was 14 done. 15 588 The truth was that the chores got 16 done and the farm thrived because Ron did the chores of 17 two or three workers. But trouble arrived at the farm 18 when simultaneously the price of the main crop dropped 19 and the government support payments dwindled. Life 20 became harder. Charlie spoke to his two sons like 21 this: "Well, sons, we have less of everything now and 22 I am going to have to put less food on the table for 23 both of you. You'll both have to tighten your belts, 24 and I would like to see you both tighten your belts two 25 notches each year." StenoTran 116 1 589 Life was not too hard for Tom. He 2 had quite considerable girth and he could tighten his 3 belt without it showing too much. When the food was 4 put on the table, he still got a lot more than thin old 5 Ron. In fact, the town people remarked that Tom's 6 weight loss made him look more fit. But Ron was 7 getting alarmingly thin. 8 590 Charlie wondered why the chores were 9 getting done more slowly than in the past. He would 10 look out and see Ron doing the same thing that he was 11 doing the last time he looked out. Both sons were 12 working the same hours as before, and Ron was still 13 working until late in the evening. But then a visitor 14 saw that although Ron still had a look of determination 15 on his face, he was working slower and slower and able 16 to lift less and less. He was too lean to be able to 17 do all the chores he was eager to do. 18 591 Now Charlie was a fair and practical 19 man. He saw that his response to difficult times was 20 making his farm unnecessarily inefficient. The chores 21 were no longer getting done. What is happening to the 22 mandate? 23 592 Perhaps the policy of equal belt 24 tightening should be reconsidered. Somehow Charlie 25 would have to assure that the food got to where it StenoTran 117 1 would do the most good so that more chores would get 2 done. He would have to make sure that the son who did 3 his chores so well all his life would get some beef 4 back on his bones. 5 593 I chose the name Ron and Tom simply 6 because of the letters. Ron points to one medium and 7 Tom points to another medium employed by CBC in 8 fulfilling its mandate. 9 594 If there is amoral to this story, it 10 is: Please make sure that the high cost of television 11 does not prevent CBC radio from doing even more of what 12 it has done so well for so long. In making sure that 13 this does not happen, CBC will be taking a giant leap 14 towards fulfilling its mandate. 15 595 Thank you. 16 --- Applause / Applaudissements 17 596 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 18 much, Mr. Dodson. 19 597 As we go into our next participants, 20 just a gentle reminder about our ten minutes, if we can 21 hold to that. 22 598 Thank you. 23 1555 24 599 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 25 600 Mr. Jean and Pamela Charron, please. StenoTran 118 1 PRESENTATION /PRÉSENTATION 2 601 MRS. CHARRON: Thank you. 3 602 Good afternoon. I have a very stuff 4 proper introduction here, but I am going to digress 5 from it. 6 603 This is turning out to be fun. 7 604 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are very glad to 8 hear that. 9 605 MRS. CHARRON: As I listen to these 10 eloquent presentations, I feel that I have rather a 11 hard act to follow. There is a sense of community that 12 I feel growing in the room. Most of us are here 13 because we love the CBC. I think that needs to be 14 underlined. 15 606 We are going to sound like a broken 16 record. We are here about CBC Radio Two. 17 607 For the purposes of this 18 presentation, we represent a significant percentage of 19 the Upper Ottawa Valley population who want the CBC to 20 provide Radio Two and La Chaîne culturelle service to 21 the area. 22 608 At present, CBC Radio Two and La 23 Chaîne culturelle signals start fading somewhere 24 between Pembroke and Petawawa as you move northwest on 25 Highway 17. Even in Pembroke, with a population of StenoTran 119 1 14,500, the reception is spotty. Sometimes, depending 2 on the meteorological conditions, there is fair 3 reception in Deep River. 4 609 The result of this is that most 5 people living in North Renfrew County, and for that 6 matter throughout northeastern Ontario, cannot receive 7 CBC Radio Two or La Chaîne, and we will demonstrate 8 that these programs would find a good audience. 9 610 North Renfrew County supports a 10 lively cultural life centred in the Pembroke-Petawawa 11 areas and the town of Deep River. In the material I 12 will table, we would draw your attention to the 13 performing arts section of the Valley Arts Council 14 Directory. It lists a dozen cultural organizations, 15 and I would add to that the Deep River Choral Group, 16 Cantandos(ph) Chamber Choir, and the Deep River Theatre 17 Operating Group, which brings in recitalists such as 18 the Members of Piano Six. They are six world-renowned 19 Canadian concert pianists committed to touring small 20 centres every year. 21 611 Deep River was even the scene of a 22 world premier recently when the orchestra played a 23 commissioned work by an Ottawa composer, Scott 24 Tresham(ph). 25 612 The schools support music education StenoTran 120 1 to the best of their ability. One of the last 2 elementary school instrumental music programs was cut 3 only last year. There are student theatre and music 4 productions that draw large audiences. This area sends 5 many students on to universities and college music 6 programs. 7 613 Our impression, arriving in the area 8 after a lifetime in Ottawa with our children going 9 through a large metropolitan school system, is that the 10 Upper Ottawa Valley produces a higher proportion of 11 career musicians than the city does. These young 12 people need to be able to listen to the material they 13 are learning and fit it into its artistic context. 14 614 Excluding Pembroke, the population of 15 the area is about 15,000 by the 1996 Census. Our 16 package contains a list of 39 names of individuals who 17 contacted us to express their support after we sent a 18 letter to the local weeks, the North Renfrew Times, 19 which has a circulation of about 2,400. We offered to 20 attend these hearings on their behalf. 21 615 Even the positioning of our letter, 22 which was placed right underneath the editorial in the 23 newspaper, I think, indicates a broad level of 24 community support, because the newspaper belongs to the 25 community association. StenoTran 121 1 616 In addition, our MPP Shawn Conway 2 sent a letter of support on his own initiative. He 3 contacted us. And a number of people who called or 4 e-mailed us said they have previously written to the 5 CBC about the service. 6 617 The demand is there, and we think CBC 7 should make completion of the stereo radio service a 8 priority. 9 618 CBC already has good technical 10 infrastructure in the area. It is likely on a repeater 11 would be required on an existing tower. That would get 12 it through the Upper Ottawa Valley. It would not of 13 course speak for northeastern Ontario. 14 619 Why should we get this service? Why 15 now? How does this relate to the CBC's mandate? 16 620 The Chair of the CBC, Guylaine 17 Saucier, had a piece in The Globe and Mail on Tuesday, 18 March the 9th. She quotes the mandate of the CBC as 19 follows: 20 "...to nurture, promote and 21 spread the values that define 22 the Canadian identity." (As 23 read) 24 621 In the Upper Ottawa Valley we do not 25 now have access to the riches of Canada's musical life, StenoTran 122 1 the live performances in concert halls across the land, 2 the "Texaco Saturday Afternoon at the Opera" 3 broadcasts, Summer Festival broadcasts from Lanaudière 4 and elsewhere on La Chaîne; Jergen Goth's(ph) 5 "Christmas Hit List"; and there is so much more. 6 622 As a little digression here, years 7 ago when I was living in Ottawa, somewhere around 1992, 8 one Sunday morning on "Choral Concert" I listened to 9 Howard Dick's tapes from a choral festival in Powell 10 River, B.C. called a Katowmu(ph). It's a Kostalish(ph) 11 word. From that, the choir that I then belonged to in 12 Ottawa in 1996 attended and won its class in that 13 festival. 14 623 The choirs I sing in in Deep River 15 don't even know that exists, because they don't have 16 access to CBC Two. 17 624 Where else can we hear other Canadian 18 composers with a discussion of their work and their 19 influences? Where else can we listen to other choirs 20 in concert and learn from them? 21 625 Music professionals, teachers, 22 conductors, performers, need to be able to measure and 23 stretch themselves against the yardstick of other 24 interpretations of their repertoire. We need the input 25 from interview and analysis programs like Eric StenoTran 123 1 Friesen's and Rick Philip's. Rick Philips is repeated 2 on CBC One, but of course it is not in stereo. 3 626 On the "Open Line Radio Program" with 4 Perrin Beatty and CBC senior management in February 5 several calls came in from different parts of the 6 country about the lack of CBC Two. Mr. Beatty 7 indicated that 75 per cent of the country was covered. 8 That would be the population, obviously, not the 9 territory. He said they are working on it; that it is 10 a matter of budget. 11 627 We have great sympathy for the 12 constraints upon the CBC in these past years. They 13 have done so well under the circumstances. However, we 14 urge CBC to finish what it started before pouring scare 15 resources into new ventures. Yes, Internet and other 16 new media will be increasingly important; but for now, 17 they serve a tiny fraction of the population. The 18 market for CBC Two and La Chaîne exists now and it is 19 more than eager. 20 628 Mr. Beatty is quoted on the subject 21 of new ventures in an article in The Globe and Mail 22 this past Saturday and he says -- and I am paraphrasing 23 a little bit: You cannot sit on a couple of channels 24 that get fragmented by an explosion of other 25 alternatives and still do your job of reaching Canadian StenoTran 124 1 audiences. 2 629 He is referring to television, but we 3 submit that the same applies to radio. CBC Two and La 4 Chaîne are the alternatives to commercial and talk 5 radio, and CBC needs to reach the whole Canadian 6 population with those signals. 7 630 Thank you for your time and 8 attention. 9 --- Applause / Applaudissements 10 631 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 11 much, Mrs. Charron. 12 632 We have our next participant. 13 1604 14 633 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 15 634 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mrs. Charron, is 16 your presentation complete? 17 635 MRS. CHARRON: Yes, it is. 18 636 MR. LAHAY: Patricia Hatala, please. 19 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 20 637 MS HATALA: I would like to thank the 21 CRTC for affording me this opportunity to make this 22 presentation. 23 638 Ladies an gentleman, my name is 24 Patricia Hatala. I come here today as a mother and a 25 nurturer of first my own children, now grown, and now StenoTran 125 1 my grandchildren. The CBC for the most part, it seems, 2 has filled a role which in my view assists its 3 listeners in many ways to appreciate and learn much 4 about Canada and its people through programs such as 5 "Canadian Achievers" and by covering events surrounding 6 geography, the arts, literature, music, to name a few. 7 639 CBC has several programs wherein the 8 public at large have the opportunity to have direct 9 input, as in "Cross Canada Check-up", "As it Happens", 10 "Talk Back Line", and other programs which invite talk- 11 back input. This provides a good opportunity for the 12 public to participate in the public taxpayer funded 13 corporation. 14 640 This public broadcast facility also 15 keeps Canadians up to speed with what is occurring in 16 other parts of our vast and wonderful country; or to 17 put it another way, keeps Canadians in touch with 18 Canadians. This is good and by all means should 19 continue. 20 641 When I informed my husband when I was 21 coming here, he said would you please include this 22 comment for me. So this is from him. 23 642 My husband, who watches much 24 television, asks that I include the following 25 observation in my presentation, and I quote: StenoTran 126 1 "When I watch an English movie 2 on the French channel, the 3 translation is done in a voice 4 overlay. When I watch a French 5 movie on the English channel, 6 more often than not the 7 translation is done by means of 8 English subtitles." (As read) 9 643 Point taken. 10 644 A positive, respectful moral 11 implication seemed to be discernible in CBC programming 12 in former years. I do believe that these qualities 13 which aided in setting CBC apart from other 14 broadcasters and was so evident then is waning far too 15 quickly for my liking. 16 645 Fifteen or 20 years ago, I could turn 17 on the radio to CBC in the morning and leave it on all 18 day without concern as to whether children were 19 listening or not. At present, not only do I often hear 20 programming that I would prefer children to not hear, 21 but programming which I myself find offensive and/or 22 demeaning, such as the down downbeat, under-achieving 23 attitude portrayed in some of the episodes of the soap 24 opera-like presentation of "Roomers and Boarders". 25 646 Recently I had occasion to listen to StenoTran 127 1 the interview of an author who had written a book, the 2 substance of which was a true story about a prisoner 3 who had escaped custody on several occasions and was 4 still at large. The manner in which the interview was 5 conducted seemed to give the listener the impression 6 that this prisoner was some kind of hero. 7 647 As recently as last Sunday afternoon, 8 I heard a program on CBC radio with a dialogue which 9 included death threats, vulgar innuendos, accompanied 10 by gunshot sounds. Not good family afternoon 11 entertainment, in my view. 12 648 Since the nature of the family is the 13 basic unit of society, one might expect the national 14 public broadcaster to carefully consider this unit when 15 setting its format and programming. Especially of 16 late, it seems, that an anti-traditional family, anti 17 pro-life bias has been reflected in some ways the CBC 18 programming is documented and/or presented. Within the 19 last six months I have heard interviews during which 20 comments about the traditional family were repeatedly 21 uttered in a demeaning manner, as though anyone in this 22 day and age who believes in traditional family is less 23 than intelligent. 24 649 When pro-lifers are accused of 25 violence, even though there is no proof of the StenoTran 128 1 violence, CBC has carried reports of the events; and 2 instead of interviewing the pro-lifers on the matter, 3 has interviewed people like Henry Morgentaler instead. 4 650 Content such as these previous two 5 items, coupled with programs on both radio and 6 television containing violence and programs such as 7 "The Simpsons", which uses less than polite language 8 and portrays disrespectful attitudes in family 9 settings, do little to foster positive personal growth. 10 651 Commercials, which are becoming more 11 and more sexually suggestive blue ice also do little to 12 foster positive personal growth. 13 652 As a result of the aforementioned 14 content, one may be left to constantly run back and 15 forth to the television or radio to accomplish the 16 on/off home style censoring one may require if one 17 chooses to have positive content coming into their home 18 on a continuing basis. The end result of course is 19 that the radio or television ends up being turned off 20 and staying off, with the result that good programming 21 is missed entirely. 22 653 It would be most helpful and 23 encouraging if our national broadcaster, CBC, carried 24 up-beat programming that families could enjoy together 25 on an ongoing basis. I do hope that it is an aim of StenoTran 129 1 our public broadcaster to more consistently carry 2 programming which serves to promote, peace, harmony and 3 positive growth of Canadians as individuals and in 4 communities. 5 654 I again thank you for the opportunity 6 to present my views. 7 655 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much 8 for being with us, Ms Hatala. 9 656 We will now proceed with the next 10 group of participants. 11 657 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 12 658 Just one comment. We had two "no 13 shows" in the second group: Andrew Atkins and Marjorie 14 Reynolds. If these two speakers are here, would you 15 let yourselves be known to the Commission, please. 16 --- Pause / Pause 17 659 MR. LAHAY: No response. 18 660 The next group please come to the 19 table: Marjorie Shaw; Alex MacGregor; Mark Laing; and 20 Edith MacDonald. 21 661 Please come forward. 22 662 Would the first presenter please 23 state his name for the record. Thank you. 24 --- Pause / Pause 25 663 MR. LAHAY: Marjorie Shaw, if you are StenoTran 130 1 in the room, would you please come up as our first 2 presenter. 3 1611 4 664 Alex MacGregor. 5 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 6 665 MR. MacGREGOR: Hi. My name is Alex 7 MacGregor from Sudbury; un-Toronto, un-feminist, 8 un-politically correct, un-AIDS victim, un-Liberal, 9 un-native, un-socialist, un-sector, un-Progressive, and 10 un-represented on CBC. 11 666 That is why, among other reasons, I 12 am critical of the CBC and why I am of two minds as to 13 whether the licence of the CBC should be renewed. It 14 is not clear from your Public Notice CRTC 1998-134 15 whether participants in this forum are to discuss 16 licence renewal. Therefore, I will confine myself to 17 answering the questions outlined in 3 of CRTC 1998-134. 18 667 How well does the CBC fulfil its role 19 s the national broadcaster? Very badly. The CBC is a 20 vehicle for the conventional wisdom of the Toronto 21 chattering classes. In the voice of Koran(ph) in the 22 Toronto Sun, the CBC is inhabited by people that go to 23 the same parties, dress the same way and share the same 24 opinions, and have very comfortable incomes. 25 668 That may be fine. But the CBC, as a StenoTran 131 1 national broadcaster, ought to be reflecting the views 2 of all Canadians and providing a forum for political, 3 philosophical and geographical diversity of this 4 country. I submit to you that this is not what the CBC 5 is doing. 6 669 Let me remind you that the CBC was a 7 creation of the Conservative government of the day to 8 provide an alternative to the United States 9 commercialism and to keep broadcasting in the hands of 10 all Canadians: Liberals, Socialists, Conservatives, 11 religious, non-religious, Natives, Aboriginals, 12 immigrants, all ethnic groups, including WASPS, Jews, 13 Africans, Asians and all else in between. 14 670 The church is tying itself in knots 15 over exclusive and inclusive language. The CBC ought 16 to concern itself with including all views and all 17 people. In other words, the CBC ought to get back to 18 its original mandate from R. B. Bennett and the 19 Conservatives of the time and serve all the people, not 20 only those with a narrow, philosophical and political 21 bent. 22 671 The CBC serves this region very 23 badly. I will not reiterate my charges of extreme 24 political bias against CBC Sudbury, but rather point 25 out that the CBC services about 10 per cent of the StenoTran 132 1 listening audience. That is appalling. The 90 per 2 cent of the people in Sudbury who do not listen to CBC 3 radio are voting with their ears and with their on/off 4 switch. The 90 per cent of people are living lives of 5 greater intelligence, greater love and greater 6 compassion than the CBC's super executives drawing 7 salaries in six figures. 8 672 The people of Sudbury do not want the 9 fare served by the CBC. Why? I submit it is because 10 the CBC agenda bears no relation to the lives of people 11 here. I have railed on publicly and privately and in 12 print about the CBC bias against Mr. Harris. It is 13 surely possible to be a Mike Harris Conservative and 14 not be in favour of letting babies starve in the 15 street. 16 673 For example, the CBC ran a contest, 17 "My Greatest Day", and among the winners was a lady who 18 waited for the great day when Mike Harris was defeated. 19 In other words, the original vision of the CBC has been 20 converted to a vision where Mike Harris is the icon 21 against progress and the advancement of human kind. 22 674 Rousseau wrote: Mankind will never 23 be truly free until the last priest is garrotted with 24 the entrails of the last aristocrats. The CBC variant 25 of that is: Ontario will never be truly free until StenoTran 133 1 Ernie Eaves(ph) is clubbed to death by Mike Harris' 2 last gold club. 3 675 It is truly painful to be a Mike 4 Harris supporter listening to the CBC. The CBC is not 5 The Toronto Star. The Toronto Star, Liberal as it is, 6 proclaims its bias in its editorial page. Its news is 7 more or less balanced. Its letters to the editors page 8 is more or less open to dissent. The CBC, I submit, is 9 not open to dissent. 10 676 The CBC ought, not should, to provide 11 programming different from that provided by other 12 broadcasters. On holiday in Florida I was subjected to 13 private broadcasting ad nauseam. Even in the USA there 14 is the need for public radio. The clue here is public. 15 The clue here is balance and variety. The clue here is 16 to make the CBC attractive to the 90 per cent who do 17 not listen to it. 18 677 What is so difficult about that. 19 Even 50 per cent of listening audience is not too high 20 a figure for CBC Sudbury to attain. 21 678 There is a special role that the CBC 22 should play in the presentation of Canadian 23 programming. The "Ideas" series by Lister Sinclair is 24 an example of this. But surely it is possible to be 25 informative and intelligent and still appeal to a wider StenoTran 134 1 audience. 2 679 Let me introduce you, Madam Chair and 3 the CBC, to Sudbury. The Sudbury I know and love is a 4 world inhabited by entrepreneurs opening restaurants, 5 boutiques, designing clothes; it is a world of people 6 and heavy equipment, marketing throughout the world. 7 It is a well-travelled world, where young Sudburians 8 help miners in Indonesia, Guatemala and Honduras. They 9 don't want handouts from the government. Rather, they 10 want tax cuts to continue to create wealth and expand 11 their businesses. 12 680 Most people in Sudbury attend weekly 13 church, temple or mosque and then go to sports events. 14 That Sudbury, I submit, is not on CBC. The CBC Sudbury 15 is union bosses demanding more and more from the public 16 purse. They are on CBC. Yes, they too are a voice in 17 Sudbury, but not the only voice. Both should be 18 present on the corporation. 19 681 They talk and argue on Durham Street, 20 but they are not dialoguing on CBC. Don't please 21 insult my intelligence by suggesting that this is 22 because of budget cuts and cutbacks. It is a matter of 23 will and direction by the CBC management and 24 journalists. The CBC must therefore be reformed. 25 682 Before I came here, I interviewed a StenoTran 135 1 lone picketer outside the CBC. What is going on in the 2 corporation? He told me he was receiving $200 a week 3 strike pay. Not a lot and the groceries in the freezer 4 were running low. Some management personnel were 5 getting $100,000 and up. Yet that was not what was 6 bothering the striker. What was bothering him was a 7 lack of direction from the top. 8 683 His union had endured layoffs and 9 budget cuts and he had not had a meaningful raise since 10 1984. Again, that is not why he was really out on 11 strike. He was out on strike because of alack of 12 direction and accountability. He was angry at the 13 waste at the top. He had seen three remote control 14 systems put in and two were ripped out almost as soon 15 as they were installed. 16 684 A lonely striker in Sudbury earning 17 about $40,000 and warming his hands before a brazier. 18 A rich CBC executive earning more than $100,000 warming 19 his Napoleon brandy before a coterie of his fellows 20 Rosedalites is simply not in touch with the striker. 21 The gap between the striker and the executive is wider 22 than that between the poor of Paris and the aristocrats 23 before the revolution. 24 685 This may reflect contemporary Canada. 25 It does not reflect what the CBC was designed to be. StenoTran 136 1 Even ni the age of Internet, the CBC's original vision 2 is still valid. I would like to see a tough watchdog 3 organization for the CBC demanding financial 4 accountability. But more importantly, returning the 5 CBC to its original mandate of serving all Canadians 6 and not preaching to us what we should think. Life is 7 too short for us to indulge in CBC political 8 correctness in place of thought. 9 686 Thank you for permitting this 10 presentation. 11 --- Applause / Applaudissements 12 687 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 13 MacGregor. 14 688 As I noted in my opening remarks, in 15 fact the hearing is on in Hull on May 25th, and you are 16 invited to partake in that hearing as well. 17 689 Mr. Secretary. 18 1620 19 690 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 20 691 Mark Laing. 21 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 22 692 MR. LAING: Good afternoon, 23 Commissioners. I have taken a day off work and driven 24 here from North Bay today because I care very deeply 25 about the CBC. StenoTran 137 1 693 With two small exceptions, I will be 2 restricting my remarks to CBC radio. 3 694 I have been a strong supporter of and 4 a listener to CBC radio all of my adult life. I 5 specify "adult", because as a teenager in Sudbury in 6 the mid-1960s we had no CBC radio. We had two choices, 7 both AM: country and rock and roll. 8 695 Soon after, we got our first FM 9 station, which played elevator music. 10 696 The first time I ever heard CBC radio 11 was when I moved to Toronto in the early 1970s. 12 Suddenly what an embarrassment of riches opened to me, 13 the likes of Peter Gzowski and Lister Sinclair on the 14 one hand, the beautiful music of Margaret Potu(ph) and 15 dear old Bob Kerr on the other hand or station. Here 16 was a whole new world of words and music and education 17 for the taking, and I took it. I still am, in fact, 18 and will until the day I die. 19 697 A few years after I went south, 20 northeastern Ontario finally did get CBC One, which I 21 was pleased to discover when I returned to the north in 22 1988. But there was something missing. About four or 23 five years ago I had the opportunity to ask the local 24 station manager about the possibility of getting CBC 25 Two in this part of the province. It was then that I StenoTran 138 1 learned that Thunder Bay had CBC One and Two, but the 2 money ran out before it could be extended to this area. 3 And that seemed to be the end of the story. 4 698 I was only too painfully aware of the 5 devastation wrought on the CBC radio in the ensuing 6 years, as favourite on-air personalities and features 7 disappeared and interviews and documentaries were 8 increasingly repeated. 9 699 It became obvious that these good 10 people were operating on a shoestring, and despite 11 their best efforts to hide it, it showed. 12 700 Now we have this new proposal to 13 create at a CBC Three aimed at a younger audience. 14 This would be a mistake for at leat three reasons. It 15 would be an injustice and in insult to this area for 16 the CBC to pour millions of dollars into a new service 17 before ensuring that the 400,000 taxpayers of 18 northeastern Ontario were covered by CBC Two. This 19 could be done for a tiny fraction of the cost of the 20 new network. The hardware and personnel are largely 21 already in place. All we need is a straight repeater 22 feed from Toronto. 23 701 This would also be a good opportunity 24 to upgrade our CBC One signal from mono to stereo. 25 702 Two, there is no pressing need for StenoTran 139 1 the CBC to serve an audience whose needs are already 2 being addressed by the private sector. And perhaps 3 most importantly, without a large infusion of new 4 money, any such venture would only further dilute the 5 quality of the existing service. 6 703 As you may be aware, the North Bay 7 symphony orchestra recently suspended operations 8 because of a lack of public support. I firmly believe 9 that the lack of CBC Two was a contributing factor in 10 this demise. How can you build an audience for good 11 music if the public does not have an opportunity to 12 expose themselves to that music? 13 704 In closing, I would like to make the 14 following points. It is imperative that the CBC 15 achieve its independence from the government of the 16 day. The head of the corporation must be chosen 17 internally and not by the Prime Minister's office. 18 705 Two, with the help of our so-called 19 ally, the Minister of Heritage, a significant portion 20 of the budget cutbacks of recent years must be restored 21 to radio at least. 22 706 Three, the CBC already distributes 23 "As it Happens" to many national public radio stations 24 in America. Could not national public radio give us 25 some of their very best programs in return? I for one StenoTran 140 1 would not mind hearing Garrison Carter's(ph) "Prairie 2 Home Companion" once a week. 3 707 That may seem strange, but remember 4 overnight is all foreign, and it seems it would be a 5 better alternative having to listen to a five-part 6 series on "Ideas" being repeated only a year and a half 7 after it was first broadcast. 8 708 Finally, two points about TV. 9 709 The national news must not be 10 commercialized. Such interruptions are jarring and 11 totally inappropriate. And shows such as Rita 12 MacNeil's and Ralph Benmurgy's(ph) serve an important 13 role as a showcase of Canadian musical talent. Such 14 exposure is critical if regional talent are to become 15 national starts. There is no such showcase on CBC 16 television now. 17 710 There is no more cost-effective way 18 of improving the quality of life in northeastern 19 Ontario than by giving us CBC Two. The listenership 20 numbers may not be large, but the CBC has always stood 21 for quality over quantity. The CBC is an important 22 part of my life, and I wish to see it affirmed, renewed 23 and revitalized. 24 711 Thank you. 25 --- Applause / Applaudissements StenoTran 141 1 712 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 2 Laing. 3 713 Mrs. MacDonald is not here, Edith 4 MacDonald? 5 714 Then that completes our list of 6 registered participants for the moment. 7 715 I would like to take a short break 8 and then ask CBC to complete this portion of our 9 Sudbury visit with their remarks. 10 716 It is now twenty after four. We will 11 reconvene at 4:30. 12 --- Recess at 1620 / Suspension à 1620 13 --- Upon resuming at 1630 / Reprise à 1630 14 717 THE CHAIRPERSON: Please join us at 15 the table. 16 718 We are also checking to see if there 17 are any participants who would have added their names 18 to the list. 19 719 It would appear not. 20 720 We will reconvene. As I mentioned in 21 my opening remarks, we are asking the CBC at the end of 22 this session and again at the end of the session this 23 evening to make a few remarks. 24 721 When you are ready, please identify 25 yourself. StenoTran 142 1 REPLY / RÉPLIQUE 2 722 MS FRY: My name is Mariam Fry. I am 3 the Regional Director of Radio for Ontario. That means 4 I am responsible for the stations in Ottawa, Sudbury, 5 Thunder Bay and Windsor. 6 723 I have colleagues here who represent 7 television and French and English radio: Bruce Taylor, 8 who represents television; Alain Dorion, who represents 9 French radio; and Maryse Lairot, who represents French 10 television. 11 724 I would like, first, to thank all the 12 people who took the time to prepare and to present 13 today. We have been listening very hard all afternoon. 14 You have probably seen us furiously scribbling notes. 15 We plan to get back in touch with each and every person 16 who made a presentation. 17 725 I would also like to thank the CRTC 18 for making this occasion available to so that we can 19 hear directly from people. 20 726 What we did hear was that they cared 21 deeply about the future of CBC, both radio and 22 television, and that they feel strongly that they have 23 a role in shaping its future. We are very glad to hear 24 that. 25 727 We heard about the importance of both StenoTran 143 1 local and regional radio and television, as well as a 2 national service, and the importance of CBC in allowing 3 Canadians to talk to each other. 4 728 One of the things I heard very loud 5 and clear was the concern about the lack of a Radio Two 6 outlet in Sudbury, and I am very pleased to tell people 7 that CBC will be applying within the next year for a 8 licence for both Radio Two and for La Chaîne culturelle 9 in Sudbury. 10 729 Thank you again for your time. 11 730 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much 12 for your comments. 13 731 That concludes this portion of our 14 consultation in Sudbury. As you know, we are 15 reconvening at 6:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. We have 13 16 registered participants. 17 732 Again, if anybody else would like to 18 register, please contact our Secretary. 19 733 J'aimerais remercier les participants 20 et participantes pour leur collaboration et leurs 21 commentaires sur le sujet de la SRC. 22 734 Thank you to all the participants. 23 We will be of course greeting a new group later, at 6 24 o'clock. 25 735 Thank you to our translation and StenoTran 144 1 court reporter for this session, and to my colleague 2 and staff. 3 736 We will see you again at 6:00 p.m. 4 737 Mr. Secretary, is there anything 5 else? 6 738 MR. LAHAY: No, Madam Chair. 7 739 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, all. 8 --- Recess at 1640 / Suspension à 1640 9 --- Upon resuming at 1804 / Reprise à 1804 10 740 THE CHAIRPERSON: I would like to 11 welcome you to this public consultation; a re-welcome 12 to those of you who were with us earlier. 13 741 I have some opening remarks which I 14 would like to put on the record. As you probably know, 15 we will ask our presenters to come to the table. 16 742 Right now it seems a little odd that 17 there is this big table and you are over there, but as 18 soon as we have completed our opening remarks, we will 19 change the structure of the room a little bit. 20 743 My name is Joan Pennefather. I would 21 like to introduce to you my colleague, Barbara Cram. 22 We are both Commissioners at the CBC. 23 744 Nous sommes ici pour recueillir vos 24 points de vue et vos commentaires sur la radio et la 25 télévision de Radio-Canada. Comment croyez-vous que la StenoTran 145 1 SRC devrait remplir son rôle dans les années à venir? 2 Voilà le genre de questions auxquelles nous voulons 3 entendre vos réponses. 4 745 The CBC is a national public service, 5 broadcasting in English as well as in French. It plays 6 an important role in the Canadian broadcasting system. 7 Today, many elements are constantly being added to the 8 broadcasting system as new technologies multiply, 9 converge, open up new horizons, and increasingly offer 10 new services. 11 746 In this context, we want to know what 12 are your needs and expectations as viewers and as 13 listeners of the CBC. 14 747 Il est donc très important pour le 15 Conseil d'entendre ce que vous avez à dire à ce sujet. 16 Il ne faut pas oublier que le CRTC est un organisme 17 public au service des citoyens et citoyennes 18 canadiennes. 19 748 À ce titre, il a une responsabilité 20 envers eux. C'est pourquoi mes collègues conseillers 21 et moi-même trouvons essentiel de venir vous 22 rencontrer. Nous sommes donc présents dans onze villes 23 canadiennes du 9 au 18 mars inclusivement pour tenir 24 cette série de consultations régionales d'un bout à 25 l'autre du pays. StenoTran 146 1 749 As I just said, it is very important 2 that the Commission hears what you have to say. We 3 must not lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a 4 public organization that serves Canadian citizens. In 5 this capacity, we are responsible to you. This is why 6 my fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to 7 come and meet with you to discuss these issues and why 8 we are holding this series of regional consultations 9 from one end of the country to the other, in 11 10 Canadian cities, from March 9th to March 18th. 11 750 These consultations are designed to 12 give you a chance, on the eve of a new millennium, to 13 express your opinion on the CBC's role, the programming 14 it offers and the direction it should take at the 15 national, regional and local levels. 16 751 Through these consultations we hope 17 to enter into an open dialogue with you and to hear 18 your concerns. 19 752 Your comments will form part of the 20 public record which will be added to the record of the 21 public hearing on the CBC that will begin in Hull next 22 May 25th. At this upcoming hearing the Commission will 23 examine the CBC's application for the renewal of its 24 licences, including radio, television and its specialty 25 services, Newsworld and Réseau de l'information. StenoTran 147 1 753 You can also take part in that public 2 hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 3 If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the 4 specific licence renewals being examined when you file 5 your comments. 6 754 Tous vos commentaires aujourd'hui 7 feront partie du dossier public. Il sera lui-même 8 ajouté à celui de l'audience publique qui s'ouvrira à 9 Hull le 25 mai prochain. C'est au cours de cette 10 audience que le Conseil étudiera les demandes pour 11 renouveler les licences de radio et de télévision de la 12 SRC ainsi que de ses services spécialisés. 13 755 Vous pouvez aussi participer à cette 14 audience en faisant parvenir une intervention écrite au 15 CRTC. Vos observations devront alors porter 16 spécifiquement sur le renouvellement des licences en 17 question. 18 756 Now I would like to come back to 19 today and this evening's consultations. Please allow 20 me to introduce the CRTC staff who will be assisting 21 us: Donald Rhéaume, our legal counsel; and Rod Lahay 22 from our Broadcasting Planning Service. 23 757 Please feel free to call on them with 24 any questions you might have about the process tonight, 25 and on any other matter. StenoTran 148 1 758 So that you will all have the 2 opportunity to speak, we would ask that you please 3 limit your presentation to ten minutes. 4 759 As these consultations are a forum 5 designed especially for you and we want to listen to as 6 many participants as possible, we will not ask any 7 questions unless we need clarification. 8 760 At the end of this session, 9 representatives from the local CBC stations will have a 10 chance to offer their views, as they are naturally very 11 interested in the issues we are discussing here today. 12 761 Pour que vous ayez tous l'occasion de 13 vous faire entendre, nous vous demandons de limiter 14 votre présentation à 10 minutes. Ces consultations 15 sont votre tribune et nous voulons être à l'écoute du 16 plus grand nombre possible d'intervenants. Nous ne 17 poserons donc pas de question, sauf si nous avons 18 besoin de clarification. 19 762 Après vos interventions, les 20 représentants des stations locales de Radio-Canada 21 auront également droit de parole puisque ce sont les 22 premières intéressées par les questions que nous 23 abordons aujourd'hui. 24 763 Without any further ado, I will ask 25 Mr. Lahay to explain any further points on the process StenoTran 149 1 this evening. 2 764 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 3 765 I have a couple of areas of 4 housekeeping before we get started. 5 766 First of all, there are translation 6 services to my right, if you require the opposite 7 language. Please be prepared to provide some type of 8 identification. 9 767 As Madam Chair has indicated, please 10 only ten minutes for your presentations. And try to 11 watch that. 12 768 We will be calling the number of 13 presenters, starting with Rudi Steinmar; Mr. Georges 14 Linsey; Mr. Bill Oja; Armand Houle; Martin Potter; 15 Helmut Goebel; Mr. Richard Destefano; Jan Steven; Karl 16 Skierszkan; Sheryl Kennelly; Ronald Brisebois; Walter 17 Halchuk; and Jami van Haaften. 18 769 Would you please come forward and 19 take a position at the front table, and we will take 20 your presentations in that order. Thank you. 21 770 When you do give your presentation, 22 would you please state your name so that we have it on 23 the official record. 24 771 THE CHAIRPERSON: Would everybody 25 giving a presentation this evening join us at the table StenoTran 150 1 here, and we will proceed in the order as read. 2 --- Pause / Pause 3 772 MR. LAHAY: We will start with Rudi 4 Steinmar. 5 773 I will go down the list. Georges 6 Linsey. 7 1813 8 774 Thank you, Mr. Linsey. 9 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 10 775 MR. LINSEY: Good evening. I would 11 like to think -- as a matter of fact, I know -- that I 12 represent thousands of Canadians from coast to coast to 13 coast who all thank this CRTC body and the CBC for the 14 opportunity for me to speak on their behalf. 15 776 My request is the field of Canadian 16 old time fiddle music has been sadly neglected in 17 Canada, not in the rural villages, not in the halls, 18 not in the school dances, not in the fiddle contests -- 19 of which there are hundreds across Canada. But I fail 20 to understand that we don't seem to present on the CBC 21 radio, which is our national radio. 22 777 We look to the CBC for unity, for 23 keeping us from coast to coast together, from 24 Newfoundland to British Columbia to the Yukon. I have 25 listened to the CBCV quite often, and I think I may StenoTran 151 1 have heard -- I stand corrected, of course -- five what 2 are referred to as presentations. I like the word 3 "presentations", because it doesn't mean to say that it 4 has to be regular; it can just be put on when it seems 5 to be fit. 6 778 But that is not correct. That is our 7 heritage music. Canadian old time fiddle music is 8 played from coast to coast to coast in Canada. There 9 are thousands of old time fiddlers, varying in age from 10 four to, I assure you, almost 104. 11 779 I may be exaggerating there a wee 12 bit, but I wanted to try and impress you. 13 780 Canadian old time fiddler music is 14 alive and well in every rural village in every part of 15 Canada. But we need to present it to the Canadians on 16 radio. We used to be able to tune into a program -- 17 some of you won't remember -- referred to as the "Don 18 Messer Program". If you were doing your chores, it 19 could be on the farm in the village or whatever, from 20 quarter to five, or whatever the time was, you dropped 21 that and you listened to Don Messer. That was our 22 heritage music he played: jigs, reels, waltzes, 23 strathspeys, name the tunes. People listened to him 24 faithfully. 25 781 We want you to renew that. As I say, StenoTran 152 1 there are thousands of fiddle contests across Canada 2 and thousands of fiddlers play -- and I am not 3 exaggerating -- in thousands of villages from coast to 4 coast to coast. Canadian fiddle music is alive and 5 well in these villages. We would like to unite them. 6 We would like the people in Whitehorse, Yukon to hear 7 the Maritime fiddlers. We would like the people in the 8 Maritimes to hear the Métis fiddle style. We would 9 like them to hear the Quebec fiddlers. We can do this 10 on national radio, on CBC for an hour. That is not 11 asking too much. 12 782 "CBC FM proudly presents Canadian old 13 time fiddle music" would make thousands of people very, 14 very pleased and inspire our youth. You heard in the 15 lobby today some very fine examples of old time fiddle 16 music. If you didn't tap your feet to that music, I 17 would say your shoes had to be glued to the floor, 18 because that is our heritage music, and we should have 19 that music played on our heritage radio, CBC radio. 20 783 I believe in that firmly. I 21 circulated a petition some time ago. I attended many 22 fiddle contests and I had my little sign there that if 23 you want to hear one hour of good Canadian old time 24 fiddle music on the CBC, sign the petition. 25 784 I have upwards of 11,000 signatures StenoTran 153 1 and they are still coming in. I think that is pretty 2 impressive. That's not near the population of the 3 fiddle fans of old time fiddlers yet. 4 785 I have had the promise of a meeting 5 with a representative of Mr. Alex Frame's office in the 6 CBC for a meeting so I can know what do you people 7 expect of our one-hour of old time fiddle music, and we 8 will certainly present it to you. 9 786 This is my plea to you: one hour of 10 Canadian old time fiddle music with thousands and 11 thousands of Canadian people want to listen to. That 12 is their heritage music. It was played in Canada 13 before Confederation. That is the absolute truth. 14 787 Having said my piece -- I hope you do 15 understand me -- I relinquish the rest of my time to 16 Mr. Bill Oja, for a purpose which you will see. 17 788 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 18 Linsey. 19 1818 20 789 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 21 790 Mr. Bill Oja, please. 22 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 23 791 MR. OJA: We came up from Hamilton 24 for this fantastic event. I have ten minutes, and I 25 had a 34-page brief. But I think what I will do is StenoTran 154 1 tell you a couple of things. 2 792 In 1970 private radio in Canada 3 played one song out of 100 Canadian, one song out of 4 100 in 1970, and that included fiddle music, country 5 music, whatever. In 1971, after the CRTC put in the 6 Cancom, we got 30 per cent; three out of ten songs 7 Canadian, seven out of ten American. You walk into a 8 music store, a video store, 90 per cent of the CDs and 9 videos are U.S. 10 793 I have nothing against the U.S. 11 794 Now, 28 years later, with thousands 12 of Canadian recording artists, it is still 30 per cent. 13 Thank you goodness for the CBC and the CRTC. 14 795 Now, the other eight minutes of my 15 presentation I would like to tell you folks what old 16 time fiddling is all about, starting with 8-year-old 17 Nicholas -- who you will meet a little bit later -- 18 right to Al Yetman, who is 60. 19 796 Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome 20 the Northern Ontario Canadian old time fiddlers. 21 --- Audio clip / Clip audio 22 --- Applause / Applaudissements 23 797 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you all very 24 much. That was great. 25 798 I guess we will go on to our next act StenoTran 155 1 -- I mean participant. 2 799 Bravo! Merci. 3 1827 4 800 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam 5 President. 6 801 Armand Houle. 7 802 Helmut Goebel. 8 803 Richard Destefano. 9 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 10 804 MR. DESTEFANO: Thank you. It is 11 pretty difficult to follow that. Could we move me 12 forward to a later time. I am of Italian descent and I 13 could sing some opera, but I'm not sure that would do. 14 805 I wrote everything out, because I 15 have a tendency to wander and I don't want to do that, 16 because I know how difficult it is for people to sit 17 there. 18 806 I want to welcome you to Sudbury, if 19 no one has done that. We are a city of lakes, 20 surprisingly. There are 37 within the region. And if 21 no one has offered you that service, I am prepared to 22 pick you up tomorrow morning and take you on tour for 23 half an our or an hour to show you some of the city, to 24 give you a sense of the city. 25 807 I would be pleased to drive you StenoTran 156 1 around and give you a presence within the community, to 2 give you a better understanding of who we are in the 3 city. That is open, and you can let me know tonight. 4 808 First of all, I want to congratulate 5 the CRTC for making the effort to come here. I think 6 the regional consultations are really critical. The 7 place that you meet and the people who come forward on 8 an individual basis are absolutely critical, because 9 most people I think don't believe that a pre- 10 consultation prior to a hearing has a very significant 11 influence. 12 809 I can tell people, from my 13 experience, that it is a very powerful place to be and 14 has a tremendous influence, especially with attentive 15 Commissioners. 16 810 I believe that without the CRTC -- 17 and I am perhaps one of the minority -- the CBC would 18 be bleeding much more profusely. I think the fact that 19 the CRTC is there hinders government from taking 20 draconian steps to cut the role of the CBC. The mere 21 presence, even though I know the relationship on 22 funding and implications of directing government, the 23 fact that you are there is really critical. 24 811 I also know that I can't speak with 25 any authority on Canadian French TV or radio, and it StenoTran 157 1 would be derelict on my part to even make an attempt to 2 do so. I don't understand the language well enough, so 3 I will make no reference to it this evening. I will 4 leave that to those who understand it better. 5 812 Let's get on with the essential 6 issue: the future of the CBC. 7 813 I would like to coin a new phrase. I 8 came here to praise the CBC, not to bury it. That is 9 just an original thought I had this morning. If that 10 is what you are going to get for the rest of the night, 11 you are in trouble, I assure you. 12 --- Laughter / Rires 13 814 My whole family grew up on the CBC. 14 My son, who lives in Chicago, still goes into the 15 Internet every night just to make sure he can catch up 16 on what is going on. My 22-year-old son who is at 17 Western has the CBC radio on continually. He doesn't 18 have cable TV, because he can't afford it. But he does 19 listen to radio. 20 815 Because we praise it, that doesn't 21 mean that public radio and television and the new media 22 -- which I want to spend some time on tonight -- 23 doesn't need cleansing, re-invention, re-engineering, 24 refocusing and establishing self as a global leader in 25 programming and production. I do not want to abandon StenoTran 158 1 the CBC in any way, but I think it needs to be washed 2 out; I think it needs to have its role re-considered. 3 816 I would like to embrace the phrase 4 "pride of place" so clearly enunciated in a recent 5 speech by Andrée Wylie, the Vice-Chairman of 6 Broadcasting, to the Atlantic Association of 7 Broadcasters. 8 817 By the way, all the material that I 9 am presenting tonight came off the Internet: the actual 10 documents, the speeches, the demographics, everything 11 came from the Internet. I think it is a powerful tool, 12 and I think CBC has a major role to play in that. 13 818 She talks about, and the Commission 14 has talked about, pride of place. I think it is 15 absolutely a brilliant statement about the CBC's role 16 and about our whole broadcasting system. 17 819 The complex mix of media services 18 being offered to Canadians is the cornerstone for the 19 future of the CBC: 52 channels, and some place in that 20 on television I have to find my place as a Canadian. 21 820 The CBC does a very admirable job on 22 reflecting one region to another on a national basis on 23 English radio, but I am not as convinced that it does a 24 good job on television. It seems to want to compete 25 with the other major broadcasters. It seems to want to StenoTran 159 1 use the same formats, the same designs and the same 2 applications. 3 821 I don't watch CBC television probably 4 more than four hours a week; I would listen 24 hours a 5 day, if I could, to radio. 6 822 I don't want to reiterate this, but 7 it does bring the geographical differences together. 8 It creates a country that needs to hear, see and talk 9 to each other, to talk about its successes, its 10 failures, its problems, and it is the only thing I can 11 find within the whole spectrum that brings that to the 12 front. 13 823 If the CBC were not present, national 14 radio and regional -- on which I am going to place 15 strong emphasis -- we probably would spend most of our 16 time reflecting on the morality of the President of the 17 United States. We probably would be listening to 18 fishing reports from Upper Michigan. 19 824 We shouldn't be spending all that 20 time listening to Monica and Bill and all their 21 problems. Maybe Jean Chrétien should do something 22 exciting so we would have a focus on that. I am not 23 saying he should do the same thing, just that he should 24 do something exciting. 25 825 I also think that most people who StenoTran 160 1 have never read the Broadcasting Act need to look at 2 Section 3. I almost think it should be part of your 3 package. 4 826 I would recommend that in the future 5 you literally put in the Broadcasting Act, Section 3, 6 because it is absolutely relevant; it was relevant ten 7 years ago and it will be relevant for the future. 8 827 Your vision statement, which most 9 people don't know about, is quite outstanding in its 10 flexibility and its approach to where broadcasting is 11 going. I don't think most people in the public even 12 know that there is a vision statement that has been 13 applied. 14 828 I would suggest that you reconsider 15 your package and look at that, so that people will 16 know. 17 829 I think the CBC will continue -- 18 under the Act it says to "inform, enlighten, entertain 19 and be predominantly and distinctively Canadian". What 20 better phraseology can we look for for the CBC. 21 830 It must "reflect Canada and its 22 regions to national and regional audiences while 23 serving the special needs of those regions". You don't 24 have to redraft the Broadcasting Act or the CBC; you 25 just have to follow what you have said and make sure StenoTran 161 1 the CBC does. 2 831 The problem I am having with the CBC, 3 in my humble opinion, by the way -- and it is only my 4 opinion -- is that the CBC spends most of its time 5 telling Canadians that there is another management 6 problem in Ottawa, or that we are going to have a new 7 presents, or we will have an interim president, or 8 maybe we won't have any president at all. 9 832 We hear about downsizing, the 10 relationship between government and the CBC, and now 11 the impending strikes. We hear rumours about the 12 breakup of regional services and press releases about 13 the ongoing saga of disconnect and alarm. 14 833 As my son would say to me: "Give me 15 a break!" Give me a break from all of that 16 information. 17 834 Give Canadians a chance to hear about 18 the excellent programs, especially at the regional 19 level. If we could measure the energy that is expended 20 on the gloom within the CBC by its own station, we 21 could probably light an entire city like Sudbury and 22 never need a hydro commission. There is just so much 23 time wasted on that. 24 835 I think the Commission needs to make 25 that clear. In fact, I would like to see you establish StenoTran 162 1 -- and I am not saying this facetiously -- an on-air 2 policy that only allows, and is a condition of licence, 3 not an expectation, one story of three minutes duration 4 per week that makes any reference to management issues, 5 and, like our artists, be scheduled in fringe time 6 between 12:00 a.m. and 2:00 a.m. in the morning. 7 836 It would be a hell of a condition of 8 licence. 9 837 Are you afraid to do that one? Maybe 10 we will have to show some courage and make some clear 11 statements. 12 838 The radio and TV programming is 13 excellent. The quality is excellent. We are thin in 14 numbers. It is very evident lately. I think you are 15 going to hear that often. 16 839 At the regional level, I can't 17 believe how thin it is in personnel. But without 18 criticizing the weight of people, it is really quite 19 imaginative and creative, even with the limited 20 personnel that they have. 21 840 Radio One: I would love "As it 22 Happens", "Cross Country Check-up", "Tapestry" with Ian 23 Brown, who I know personally, who does a great job; 24 "Madly Off in All Directions", how we can laugh at 25 ourselves on the east coast and look at the rest of StenoTran 163 1 Canada and laugh at it; "Finkelman's Forty-Fives", 2 "Vinyl Cafe". 3 841 Those are excellent national 4 programs. They don't need to be changed. Let's just 5 enforce the content in them. 6 842 My suggestion for the future of 7 national radio in English is to encourage the CBC to 8 continue on its own path to excess, employing the 9 brightest, creative, energetic Canadian producers and 10 personnel to find its own niche. 11 843 I would like to emphasize that I 12 think the CBC personnel should be 100 per cent 13 Canadian, absolutely 100 per cent Canadian. Then we 14 will have Canadian reflection built into production. I 15 don't know if that is true or not, and I don't know if 16 we can influence that from the CRTC. 17 844 Encourage the CBC, but don't impose 18 any conditions, except that production programming and 19 personnel must be Canadian, and that they adhere 20 rigidly to the Broadcasting Act. Let the CBC find its 21 own place. Don't lay a lot of conditions around it; 22 let it find its own place. It is struggling, like all 23 other broadcasters. 24 845 It will be creative; it will adjust. 25 It always has. I know we can't do anything about StenoTran 164 1 money. 2 846 I think we need more people like Rex 3 Murphy and that guy Finkelmann. They are absolutely 4 the new public philosophers. They have the courage to 5 say what they think, and I think the CBC has restricted 6 that kind of dialogue on its radio system and on its 7 television, to the detriment of us. 8 847 The CBC is trying to be to nice. We 9 are Canadians. We always want to be nice. We need to 10 bring more open line shows, more discussions and talk. 11 We need to give the hosts in the public sector more 12 chance to express their points of views but let us do 13 it. 14 848 Jack Webster proved it to be 15 successful. Why can't we do it on our public radio. 16 849 Can we go beyond also the two nation 17 discussion that dominates programming and face the 18 reality in TV and radio that we have new faces, that 19 the demographics are changing, that other nations are 20 making up the dominant audiences. I want to hear more 21 of that in our system. Go to B.C., go to Toronto. 22 There is just not the traditional model and the two 23 nations. We are dominated by that discussion. 24 850 The CBC is better than most at what 25 it does -- I am going to try and move rapidly -- but StenoTran 165 1 one area that I think TV and radio needs to do is 2 increase its story-telling. We need more dramas on 3 radio and television that create a rich folklore of our 4 people and our geography. We don't see enough of it. 5 We try to copy the American model. We need more 6 excellence in that field. 7 851 Now my theme. The power of the CBC 8 is in the regional service. I, like many others, can 9 access multiple media on the world, on international 10 affairs. The choice is unlimited. 11 852 The northern region is critical, and 12 the local CBC service in Sudbury is one of our primary 13 sources of information. "The Morning Show", with one 14 voice -- one voice at this stage -- does a superb job 15 because it has great producers. 16 853 There is also a show at noon hour. 17 It doesn't have the power that the "The Morning Show" 18 has because people are listening. 19 854 "Points North" is absolutely the best 20 show that I have heard in the last ten years in 21 Sudbury. It has one voice, probably -- and there are 22 people in the audience who can tell you that -- 23 probably one, or two or three, producers maximum. We 24 are just demolishing the potential for regional service 25 by lack of money and by lack of support. StenoTran 166 1 855 "News Updates", one voice. He does a 2 great job. He is in the audience. But he is one 3 voice, and it is unfair to him and unfair to us, 4 because we hear the same voice with the same news, and 5 he can only do so much. 6 856 There is no network without regional 7 CBC programs. Please, people need to understand that 8 networks don't emanate out of Toronto and we have a 9 national service. It is regional relationships that 10 count. 11 857 The regional service is important. 12 858 The other thing I want to talk about 13 -- and I will skip through it -- is that the economic 14 benefits of a regional service that comes to this 15 community are significant. I have done an estimate, 16 but I don't know how accurate it is. I would bet that 17 with disposable incomes, professional services, we are 18 probably over $1.5 million annually. 19 859 Don't take away those regional 20 economic benefits from us, because they are part of our 21 economic diversification. It establishes us as a 22 sophisticated city, and it gives personnel a place to 23 live and grow. 24 860 Time is running out. I want to make 25 sure that regional radio and TV stations fulfil a StenoTran 167 1 mandate. 2 861 I have been asked by a group of 3 musicians to give you this information. Recently, 4 there was another attempt by musicians in northern 5 Ontario to find their place in the Canadian market. I 6 attended a workshop in Sudbury last weekend, ably 7 encouraged by Mark Polumbo(ph), a local businessman, 8 who wants to expand existing exposure. "It begins at 9 home", he said, "and we are not doing enough." 10 862 I apologize, but we have all kinds of 11 people here who are just great, with no reservations: 12 Chuck Label(ph), Kevin Closs(ph), Erin Benjamin, 13 Melanie's Love Seat, The Elephant Band, Tara Kane, The 14 Smokers, The Easter Dogs, and we have five sound 15 recording studios here. 16 863 We don't have the exposure. Then Is 17 topped and heard, at ten to 5:00 today and at 5 o'clock 18 today, two local artists being played on the air after 19 I had written this, and I came back and I said: "My 20 God, I can't say what I am going to say." 21 864 Maybe I am missing something. 22 865 They need exposure. They are 23 Canadian talent and they need a place, the very words 24 that you have. 25 866 Last comment -- just another two or StenoTran 168 1 three minutes, if I may. Thank you. 2 867 The new media is exciting and will 3 capture a unique market segment. The CBC must continue 4 its role and in expanding its web capabilities and its 5 web casting. I would suggest that if anyone has not 6 been to the CBC website they are missing an important 7 and exciting asset that has been implemented for the 8 new wave of technowizards and the other more mature 9 technocrats. 10 868 I spent over 20 hours in the last two 11 weeks listening and playing archive programs from 12 "Ideas" and from a whole range of topics. I was 13 impressed with the production by Don Hill, who now 14 resides in Sudbury, entitled "Haunted House Haunted 15 Mind, Those Places and Ideas". It is a reflection of 16 the north, a reflection of its personnel and all of the 17 scary stuff that goes along with it. It was an 18 excellent production. 19 869 I am wondering why I am not receiving 20 Radio Two in Sudbury. I listen to the radio again, at 21 ten to 5:00, and there is an announcement that we are 22 going to get Radio Two in a year. So I got my 23 information by the radio after I had written this, and 24 I am really excited about that. 25 870 I downloaded "Shockwave" to hear StenoTran 169 1 "Sound Bites from the Juke Box", a page for kids. You 2 should listen to it; it's super. The only problem I 3 had was there are no Canadian songs on the Canadian 4 kids' juke box. Now, I stand to be corrected because I 5 don't know all of the artists, but I said: "Why aren't 6 they loading up the juke box for those kids with 7 Canadian music?" Why not 50 per cent Canadian talent? 8 871 If you are going to impose anything, 9 50 per cent Canadian talent on the web site. It has to 10 be produced and get copyright. 11 872 We need to spend more money. There 12 are 100 million people worldwide. They say by the year 13 2010 100 per cent of all homes will be wired. We can 14 export our expertise, our artists, and we can move 15 forward. 16 873 I would encourage the Commission to 17 establish a clear set of goals and objectives that is 18 achievable for the CBC in the next three to five years 19 regarding their webcasting; that the CBC consider the 20 importance of Canadian content only -- let's be 21 courageous and say only on its web services; that 22 partnerships with existing Canadian on-line services 23 expand the Canadian exposure to reach its targets. 24 874 It is important that the CRTC not 25 consider this media computer based Internet delivered StenoTran 170 1 under any regulatory framework until it is allowed to 2 find its place. In fact, I don't think you are ever 3 going to regulate it. I don't think you have the power 4 to; I don't think you have the influence to do it, and 5 I think we should let them find their own place. 6 875 I wanted to talk about changing 7 demographics, spend more time on CBC. But I want to 8 thank you. I have talked too long. The invitation is 9 open tomorrow morning. 10 876 Thank you very much. 11 877 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 12 Destefano. If you can leave a copy of your remarks as 13 well, just to make sure we have a full copy, that would 14 be excellent. 15 878 Thank you very much. 16 1845 17 879 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 18 880 Our next presenter on the list, in 19 order, is Jan Steven. 20 881 Karl Skierszkan. Please come 21 forward. 22 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 23 882 MR. SKIERSZKAN: I will be brief. 24 883 As the CBC-SRC is publicly funded by 25 Canadian citizens through their federal tax dollars, it StenoTran 171 1 is essential that its programming reflects the concerns 2 and interests of those very citizens who pay those 3 taxes. The CBC-SRC has taken this task seriously over 4 its history. It has fulfilled its role as a national 5 public broadcaster. It has undertaken a major feat in 6 unifying Canadians by allowing us to share national 7 discussions and to view national events. That it 8 broadcast both in English and in French allows us to 9 remain connected throughout Canada. 10 884 Personally speaking, that I have been 11 able to listen to French language programs in areas 12 where no French is spoken has helped me, as a 13 northeastern Ontario, to feel comfortable and at home 14 on the west coast, on the prairies and in Atlantic 15 Canada when travelling. 16 885 The CBC-SRC should continue to 17 encourage discussions on a national level by informing 18 and listening to Canadians across Canada in both 19 languages. It need not be so concerned with 20 entertaining Canadians in that other privately funded 21 broadcasters are able to do this, but should expand its 22 role in informing Canadians around issues and events. 23 It should also look beyond more mainstream 24 entertainments in its programming. 25 886 One difficulty, of course, in a StenoTran 172 1 country as large as Canada is that there are 2 interesting things happening in the regions but we are 3 all looking only at what happens in main centres. 4 887 So it could broadcast performing arts 5 events for more marginal Canadian artists. It could 6 broadcast live theatre, concerts and ballets, even if 7 they are simply cameras from the front of the balcony 8 aimed at the stage. 9 888 That may seem hokey, but it would 10 certainly allow people outside of the main centres to 11 see these things. 12 889 It could broadcast recorded 13 performances of fringe theatre, such as might be found 14 in Edmonton, nationally; again, as an idea that regions 15 could see what other regions are doing. 16 890 It could broadcast women's sporting 17 events, like the national university basketball 18 championships, as opposed to simply mainstream events 19 which other broadcasters would pick up anyway. 20 891 In taking the formative approach, 21 however, with respect to Canadian culture it need not 22 be elitist. In addition to seeking out to broadcast 23 works from more marginalized artists, it could seek to 24 hear the voices of those disenfranchised, such as 25 displaced workers, rural elderly, traditional people StenoTran 173 1 having difficulties negotiating the changing times. 2 892 And traditional people is not simply 3 traditional native people, but traditional rural 4 people, small "c" conservative, who don't necessarily 5 subscribe to those in power agenda but still feel 6 threatened by a lot of the changes. 7 893 I believe that the French language 8 radio service needs to radically change. After 30 9 years of official bilingualism and multiculturalism 10 there exists many Canadians who are, at least 11 passively, bilingual, francophile, wanting to receive 12 information and opinion and arts in French and who are 13 far removed from Quebec culture. 14 894 When thinking about it, the French 15 Canadian nation in Canada itself sees itself in 16 relation to the English Canadian nation, but there are 17 many, many French-speaking Canadians who see the 18 mainstream Quebec culture as one which disallows their 19 voices. 20 895 We need regional French programming. 21 We would like to have a Canadian French radio service 22 which parallels in every way the English service. 23 896 Uninterrupted radio service on the 24 highways across Canada would be nice. As mentioned 25 before, CBC stereo is only available to cable StenoTran 174 1 television subscribers in Sudbury at this time, but I 2 have just heard it will change. 3 897 Newsworld and RDI are excellent. The 4 Canadian public needs to know a lot more background 5 around the news covered, however. Political and social 6 issues need to be better clarified. Additionally, 7 there is a need for a lot more economic debate, more 8 information around economic implications of the various 9 events, and more information around the economic 10 background of the various events. 11 898 The Canadian public has few options 12 when looking for honest economic reporting, and the 13 CBC's Newsworld and RDI could fill that need. Again, 14 there is a perception that the economic reporting we 15 get from governments or from main interests have vested 16 interests and are more slanted. 17 899 It could also do this economic 18 reporting in a way that minimizes the jargon that 19 distances the Canadian public, who need to know in 20 order that every citizen make responsible decisions, 21 both economically and politically. 22 900 In summation, let other broadcasters 23 fill the screen with reassuring entertainments, 24 including their versions of the news. Let the CBC-SRC 25 inform the Canadian public, provide a forum for StenoTran 175 1 discussion and allow us all to review the works and 2 performances of Canadian artists and athletes. 3 901 Thank you. 4 902 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 5 much. 6 903 Mr. Secretary. 7 1852 8 904 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 9 905 Our next presenter, in order, is 10 Sheryl Kennelly. 11 906 Ronald Brisebois. 12 907 Monsieur Brisebois, s'il vous plaît. 13 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 14 908 MR. BRISEBOIS: Good evening. My 15 name is Ronald Brisebois. If I am addressing you this 16 evening, it is to bring to light a persistent problem I 17 find plaguing not so much CBC but many other channels 18 on cable television. 19 909 I am not so sure if it is a sign of 20 social degradation, but it seems that sexuality and 21 sensuality has become a redundant theme that is 22 unfortunately plaguing home entertainment in all forms 23 of media. 24 910 My question tonight is: How is 25 anyone supposed to retain a clear focused mind amid StenoTran 176 1 such a display of corruption? And more importantly, 2 how is one supposed to keep its heart and soul pure 3 when it is literally bombarded with sexual images on 4 television, even on commercials? 5 911 I refer especially to the program 6 "Melrose Place". 7 912 I find television as a whole in 8 appropriate, especially for children. When you 9 consider that "Melrose Place" is being played at 6:00 10 p.m. and my children can actually view this, I find 11 that extremely inappropriate for my children. 12 913 I believe it is the responsibility of 13 CBC and CRTC to regulate programs that emphasize 14 education, values and morality. One value that CBC 15 seems to fall short on is the value of life, as 16 indicated in one program that aired on February 19th of 17 this year, namely "Thou Shalt Not Kill". This program 18 seemed to attack unjustly the Pro-Life Movement in 19 Canada. 20 914 Pro-Life, as you probably know, is a 21 peaceful movement which emphasizes silence and prayer 22 during their marches and are pro-life from conception 23 to natural death. We are against abortion absolutely, 24 while we find all lives to be sacred, and we pray for 25 the conversion of doctors so they may see the truth in StenoTran 177 1 their work. 2 915 The objective of the health care, at 3 least in my eyes, is to diagnose, heal sickness and 4 promote recovery, not to kill. To become pregnant is 5 not a sickness or a disease; it is a gift. What 6 troubles me most is that most clips and spokespersons 7 used on that program were mostly from the U.S. and some 8 events dated several years ago. You did not give the 9 Canadian view on the issue, but the American view of a 10 few fanatic groups and individuals. 11 916 I do not want my tax dollars to be 12 used in what could be interpreted as misinformation, 13 because it was slanted on one side. Pro-Life hardly 14 had a word in there. Anything that came from Pro-Life 15 was always from the States; there was not really any 16 view from Canadians, like the directors of Alliance for 17 Life, or Pro-Life. 18 917 On a positive note, CBC seems to be 19 one of the leading channels on television when it comes 20 to family programming. I was just enjoying the other 21 evening Walt Disney with the children, for example; and 22 a show I used to watch a lot was "Road to Avonlea". 23 918 These are programs that I look 24 forward to spending quality time with my children. 25 Personal favourites are also the hockey games and a StenoTran 178 1 certain program, "Life and Times", that brings about 2 Canadian nationalism, pride, showing the lives of 3 Canadians that are too often forgotten or overshadowed 4 by American television. 5 919 Perhaps my only recommendation is 6 that television is a tool that could be used to better 7 people, to educate them, to open people's eyes to a 8 world around them, but it must be done in a manner that 9 is objective, presenting both sides of the argument 10 equally for Canadians, to be educated impartially, 11 especially on social issues and news coverage, for what 12 you show literally plays a significant role and 13 influence in the lives of Canadians. 14 920 I thank you for your time. Good 15 evening. 16 921 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 17 much. 18 922 Mr. Secretary. 19 1855 20 923 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 21 924 Walter Halchuk, please. 22 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 23 925 MR. HALCHUK: That is a copy of my 24 presentation so that you have it there. 25 926 First of all, I am here from the StenoTran 179 1 Ukrainian Canadian Congress. I am also a member of the 2 Canadian Civil Liberties Association, and I am on the 3 national board of directors with the Congress and their 4 Justice Committee. 5 927 My presentation is also as the 6 Council Chair in Sudbury, but it deals on issues that 7 are provincial as well as national. I will go on with 8 my presentation. 9 928 The Ukrainian Canadian Congress 10 (UCC), founded in 1940, with its regional councils and 11 branches, represents the Ukrainian Canadian community 12 before the before our provincial 13 governments and before the city and/or regional 14 governments throughout Canada -- a Ukrainian-Canadian 15 parliament, if you will. It serves as a unifying forum 16 for efforts and programs of the various Ukrainian 17 organizations across Canada, promotes linkages with 18 Ukraine and addressed the needs and concerns of the 19 Ukrainian community in Canada. 20 929 We welcome the opportunity to present 21 our views to the CRTC on the programming and operation 22 of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC). Our 23 Prime Minister, the Right Honourable Jean Chrétien, 24 during his recent official visit to Ukraine, 25 underscored the importance of the Ukrainian community StenoTran 180 1 to Canada's cultural and economic policies. The 2 Sudbury Council of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress 3 trusts the CRTC agrees with our Prime Minster and will 4 fully consider our views. 5 930 One of the questions that was put in 6 as guidelines was: 7 "How well does the CBC fulfil 8 its role as the national 9 broadcaster?" 10 931 And here we are primarily addressing 11 the English languages programs in radio, TV and the 12 Internet. 13 932 Generally, the CBC fulfils its role 14 well, in particular radio, but there is definitely room 15 for improvement. The CBC itself recognizes that fact 16 -- and I quote: 17 "Even the most rigorously 18 managed journalistic 19 organization may once in a while 20 abuse the freedom it enjoys or 21 allow its journalists to lose 22 sight of their professional 23 responsibilities. The Canadian 24 Broadcasting Corporation is not 25 immune to such errors but StenoTran 181 1 remains determined to achieve 2 the highest possible standards. 3 The CBC is fully committed to 4 maintaining accuracy, integrity 5 and fairness in its journalism." 6 (As read) 7 933 By the way, this is from the CBC 8 Internet site, and anybody can access that, which I 9 believe is an example to many others. 10 934 What is that commitment? According 11 to CBC's own document entitled "Informing Canadians: 12 CBC Journalism in the 1990s", this public broadcaster 13 makes the following commitment to the citizens of 14 Canada: 15 "The CBC belongs to the people 16 of Canada. The purpose and 17 responsibility of its journalism 18 is to contribute to their 19 citizenship, to their need to be 20 informed, and to understand the 21 divers society of which each of 22 them is part...The people who 23 make up the audiences for its 24 programs are perceived not as 25 consumers but as citizens -- StenoTran 182 1 citizens who must constantly be 2 informed and stimulated so that 3 they may adequately discharge 4 their responsibilities as 5 members of a democratic 6 community." 7 935 Based on this commitment, we have 8 found the CBC lacking. In its laudable quest for 9 excellence, the CBC has lost sight of relevance. The 10 citizenship is being informed, but only in part, as 11 this understanding of the "diverse society" must first 12 be revisited by the CBC itself. We would like to help. 13 Fact or not, the perception across Canada is that the 14 CBC's accuracy, integrity and fairness has suffered. 15 936 We are confident that the CBC wishes 16 to diligently discharge its stated responsibility, but 17 with the recent focus on resources and not on the job 18 at hand -- I believe Mr. Destefano mentioned a 19 condition for relicensing; he did it a little more 20 eloquently than this -- the CBC has been distracted. 21 937 Ready productions that may "not be to 22 the normally high standards of the CBC", but which are 23 very meaningful to the ethno-cultural communities of 24 Canada received dismissive, bordering on 25 discriminatory, attention. I speak of the award- StenoTran 183 1 winning films "Harvest of Despair" and "Freedom Had a 2 Price". 3 938 The Ukrainian Canadian community had 4 to organize a national lobbying effort to get both 5 "Harvest of Despair" and "Freedom Had A Price", shown 6 on CBC. This despite the fact that these films were 7 Canadian made, largely Canadian financed documentary 8 films, made by a Canadian film maker, and of interest 9 to a significant number of Canadian taxpayers -- 10 especially in the light of 1998 being the 65th 11 anniversary of the great famine in the Ukraine. 12 939 It was very meaningful. 13 --- Foreign language / Langue étrangère 14 940 When members of our community 15 throughout Ontario were asked "What does CBC do for us, 16 as Canadians of Ukrainian heritage?", the answers were 17 passionate and heartfelt. Most did not feel included 18 and often felt insulted or ignored. 19 941 For example, during the Olympic games 20 in Nagano, the CBC had "nothing" to say about the teams 21 from Ukraine. The commentators were not prepared. 22 They did not know that to a large Canadian population 23 whose roots are in Ukraine that gaff was an insult. 24 This lack of sensitivity also took the form of a polite 25 but condescending reply to my personal inquiry as to StenoTran 184 1 this gaff -- 41 days later. 2 942 One respondent to the survey said the 3 following: 4 "There are ample examples of CBC 5 productions that focus on 6 Britain or French Canada or 7 native Canadians. Rarely, if 8 ever, they..." 9 943 And this is the CBC. 10 "...do anything having to do 11 with Ukrainians in Canada or 12 Ukraine, except for the very 13 rare mini-documentaries about 14 'men in sheepskin coats'...which 15 most of us aren't, and never 16 were, and don't have any direct 17 link to." 18 944 Another: 19 "If the CBC is to 'serve the 20 public', why doesn't the CBC do 21 a piece on the internment 22 operations in Canada during 23 World War I? That's Canadian 24 history! Or on Philip Konowal 25 as a Canadian Victoria Cross StenoTran 185 1 winner." 2 945 One thread that ran through most 3 responses was the distressing perception that speaks to 4 the commission not merely omission of actions and 5 comments. Many in our community, young and old alike, 6 believe there to be an anti-Ukrainian bias at the CBC. 7 Intended or not, the perception exists and must be 8 addressed. 9 946 Many are tired of the repeated 10 pairing of the terms Ukrainian and alleged Nazi war 11 criminal. The Ukrainian Canadian perspective on the 12 war crimes issue is rarely heard. Right now we have 13 several hearings that have just concluded while others 14 are continuing, yet the CBC does not cover those 15 stories, or appears after it's all over to promote 16 stories about thousands of World War II war criminals 17 in our midst. These are exaggerated and misleading 18 stories as ruled by the Duschenes Commission. 19 947 One example of one-sided reporting 20 was an interview on Wednesday, July 22, 1998, 21 approximately 6:20 a.m. (Pacific Time), on CBC Radio 22 One with Mr. Silverstone, Council for the Canadian 23 Jewish Congress, extolling the pursuit of Nazi war 24 criminals. No alternate view to balance Mr. 25 Silverstone's bias was given. The whole idea of one- StenoTran 186 1 sided presentation must be viewed as promotion rather 2 than reporting, and is unworthy of the high standards 3 of the CBC. 4 948 We in turn were asked: 5 "Why do they [CBC] on the one 6 hand afford a platform to people 7 who are circulating 'hate 8 literature' in Canada and why, 9 on the other, wouldn't CBC cover 10 a story like tax receipts being 11 issued by political lobby groups 12 like the Friends of the Simon 13 Wiesenthal Center -- a story 14 that appeared in The National 15 Post?" 16 949 Where was the CBC? 17 950 If you notice, the respondents use 18 the term "they" when referring to the CBC. It is not 19 their public broadcaster. 20 951 The feeling of citizenship must not 21 be a hollow one. Without at least the perception of 22 membership, belonging or inclusion, the CBC is in fact 23 discouraging the participation of large numbers of 24 Canadians in a democratic society, and is certainly not 25 the stimulating force it is mandated to be. StenoTran 187 1 952 The next point was: 2 "In the new millennium, should 3 the CBC fulfil its role in a 4 different manner than it has in 5 the past?" 6 953 The answer is obvious and will be 7 address in our recommendations, and they are at the end 8 of this. 9 954 Next: 10 "Should the programming provided 11 by CBC radio and television be 12 different from that provided by 13 other broadcasters? If so, what 14 should those differences be?" 15 955 Certainly it should be different. 16 The CBC's commitment to citizenship must remain, and in 17 so doing Parliament must financially recognize the 18 civil service provided. The Government of Canada must 19 continue to significantly invest in this venue for 20 better citizenship. 21 956 In conclusion, the Sudbury Council of 22 the Ukrainian Congress, in its willingness to help, 23 suggests strongly the following: 24 957 1. That the federal government 25 allocate additional funding to reflect the multifaceted StenoTran 188 1 citizenship role undertaken by the CBC. 2 958 2. The formation of a CBC ethno- 3 cultural advisory council. Such a council will clearly 4 demonstrate to management and staff a commitment to the 5 fundamental principles entrenched in the "Broadcasting 6 Policy Reflecting Canada's Cultural and Linguistic 7 Diversity". "Ethnic" news is Canadian news. 8 959 3. Provide sensitivity training to 9 staff and management on the multicultural reality of 10 Canadian society. 11 960 I believe Mr. Destefano also touched 12 on that. 13 961 4. Designate staff and resources 14 needed to implement and support Nos. 2 and 3 -- which 15 is the council and training. 16 962 5. Establish a liaison position with 17 the Ukrainian community. 18 963 6. Hire more journalists already 19 sensitized to Canada's ethno-cultural diversity. 20 964 7. Focus on cross-cultural issues 21 such as the Genocide Museum, a unique Canadian approach 22 to recognizing man's inhumanity to man. A model for 23 the rest of the world. 24 965 8. Rebroadcast programs from CBC's 25 international service to Canadian audiences. StenoTran 189 1 966 This is excellent programming. Few 2 people hear about it. 3 967 9. Redistribute CBC's overseas news 4 bureaus in a manner that reflects the multicultural 5 nature of Canadian society. Such a restructuring will 6 provide a fresh variety of reports and gain the CBC 7 greater market share. 8 968 Thank you for your time. I believe 9 that's it. 10 969 THE CHAIRPERSON: Than you very much, 11 Mr. Halchuk. 12 970 Mr. Secretary. 13 1908 14 971 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 15 972 Jami van Haaften, please. 16 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 17 973 MS VAN HAAFTEN: I have already 18 submitted my notes for your file. 19 974 It is hard to limit my feelings about 20 the future of the CBC to ten minutes and talk about 21 both radio and television services. They are two 22 distinct services and two which I think are vital if we 23 are to continue as an informed and entertained 24 Canadian culture. 25 975 My concern about the future role of StenoTran 190 1 the CBC relates to access. I have used Stats Canada 2 census data to make my point in graphic sense. 3 976 Less than 1 per cent of Canadian 4 households are without at least one radio or television 5 set. Clearly, ownership of either appliance allows 6 about 99 per cent of Canadian households to tune in to 7 CBC radio or television. However, my access in the 8 various Ontario cities I have lived in has been 9 affected by the quality of the signal, the programming 10 choices made by recent regional managers, and more 11 recently by what I can only get through use of a cable 12 television subscription. 13 977 Using Stats Canada numbers, 26 per 14 cent of Canadian households which do not have cable do 15 not have access to either Newsworld or CBC Radio Two. 16 978 When you move into newer Internet 17 based technologies, you are limiting access even more. 18 In 1996, according to Stats Canada, only 7 per cent of 19 Canadian households were using the Internet. This is 20 not an argument to stop using the Internet to duplicate 21 or enhance CBC broadcast services. However, don't lose 22 sight of the fact that a nationally funded broadcast 23 service should be freely accessible by everyone. 24 979 There have been many times I felt 25 isolated and cut off from services the CBC offered. I StenoTran 191 1 am old enough to remember the introduction of 2 television to the community I lived in, during the 3 early 1960s. It seems to me the test pattern was on 4 most of the day, and we tended to watch programs in the 5 evening. 6 980 The experience was repeated in 1980, 7 to a lesser extent, when I lived in Red Lake, Ontario. 8 981 By the time I was living in Roslin, a 9 community north of Belleville, with a young family, I 10 knew what services were available in bigger cities and 11 towns and what I didn't have. For some reason the FM 12 radio signal was fairly weak and hard to find on the 13 dial. It took the Gulf War to bring Newsworld 14 programming to my television for a brief period. 15 Otherwise, I only enjoyed it when I visited my mother 16 in The Sioux, where she had cable service. 17 982 There are many successes which the 18 CBC can claim, including quality journalism and the 19 strength of their regional radio program, which for 20 some reason I appreciate more now when I am living in 21 northern Ontario. The biggest improvement to CBC's 22 television service could be to make it more like radio. 23 A stronger regional service is a foundation for 24 national program, both information and entertainment; 25 commercial-free programs; a common program schedule; StenoTran 192 1 and predominantly Canadian content. Then we would have 2 a truly choice blend of news, information and 3 entertainment. 4 983 There are challenges too. Funding 5 cuts threaten the staffing levels and resources 6 available to produce quality programs. Both should be 7 protected in order to make the national service that 8 much more relevant to all Canadians. The second 9 challenge is to use available technology to move beyond 10 a public broadcast service owned by all Canadians to 11 one which can be freely accessed by all Canadians. 12 984 Thank you. 13 985 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 14 much, Ms van Haaften. We appreciate your being here. 15 986 Mr. Secretary, we should recall some 16 of the names we had on the list. 17 987 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 18 988 Rudi Steinmar; Armand Houle; Martin 19 Potter; Helmut Goebel; Jan Steven; Sheryl Kennelly. 20 989 No response, Madam Chair, for any of 21 the names. 22 990 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 23 much. 24 991 As I said earlier, two points: One, 25 our approach to these consultations is to spend as much StenoTran 193 1 time as possible listening to what you have to say, and 2 hence we are not asking questions. That is in no way 3 an indication of lack of interest. As was said by one 4 of the participants, this is a very important process 5 for us, and your input is key to future decision- 6 making. 7 992 The other point is that, as earlier 8 in the day, we ask CBC to join us at the end of the 9 session to give us come comment on what they have 10 heard. 11 993 I would ask that that occur again. 12 994 Do you need a short break before we 13 do that, or can you proceed? 14 995 MR. TAYLOR: I am fine. 15 1914 16 996 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right; thank 17 you. 18 REPLY / RÉPLIQUE 19 997 MR. TAYLOR: My name is Bruce Taylor. 20 I am the Regional Director of Television for English 21 Television in Ontario. 22 998 On behalf of my colleagues from 23 English radio and French radio and television, I would 24 like to thank very much all of those who took the time 25 to prepare submissions for the CRTC tonight and to StenoTran 194 1 bring them forward, and this afternoon as well. 2 999 To digress, I think this evening we 3 were treated to one of the most entertaining 4 submissions that I have ever heard at a CRTC gathering. 5 1000 I would also like to thank the CRTC 6 for providing the opportunity for us to hear, first- 7 hand, from those people for whom we deliver these 8 services. 9 1001 In the audience tonight, among the 10 CBC people here, are Miriam Fry, my colleague 11 representing English radio; Alain Dorion, representing 12 French radio; and Maurice Lariault, representing French 13 television. We have all been making very careful notes 14 and paying careful attention to what has been said. 15 1002 We will endeavour to get back to 16 those who made presentations on the specific issues 17 which were raised. 18 1003 That is all I have to say, except 19 thanks again. 20 1004 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 21 much, Mr. Taylor. 22 1005 I was just conferring with my 23 colleague, and indeed, as it is 7:15 and we announced 24 that this session was on until 10:00, we will take a 25 short break but we will stay here for a while to make StenoTran 195 1 sure that if people come in a little later, they may 2 want to join us. 3 --- Off microphone / Sans microphone 4 1006 THE CHAIRPERSON: By all means. 5 1007 Again, we can go back to CBC if there 6 is another comment you wish to make. 7 1918 8 1008 If you could, would you tell us who 9 you are -- if you would; not if you could. 10 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 11 1009 MR. REID: Sometimes maybe not. My 12 name is Paul Reid. I am a businessman in Sudbury. I 13 am a past President of the Chamber of Commerce here. 14 1010 I would like to welcome you to 15 Sudbury. I think the hearings into the relicensing of 16 the CBC are very crucial, at a crucial time. I think 17 that if we go with the status quo that we have accepted 18 in the past, the next time it comes up, in three or 19 five years, we won't be talking about it. I think it 20 has to change. 21 1011 I think you have to take a look at 22 accountability. I see the Chair of the CBC Board is 23 talking about accountability. I think you have to say: 24 How many people listen to the service? I think the 25 numbers are less than 10 per cent of the national StenoTran 196 1 audience. I think it is a shame. 2 1012 I listen to it. I like the regional 3 programming. I listen to it here in the morning, 4 because it is the only way you can find out what is 5 going on around northern Ontario. I listen to the 6 national radio when I am driving. I like the programs 7 on CBC TV -- I like some of them, not all. 8 1013 I think we don't do a good job in 9 this mandate of getting Canadians to talk to one 10 another, back and forth. I think it is Toronto- 11 centered, Montreal-centred. There are other things 12 happening in this country outside those two centres. I 13 think that we ought to focus on that, as some of the 14 other people have said. We should do that with the new 15 technologies. 16 1014 I see that part of the vision of the 17 current President of the CBC is to add another youth 18 channel, and he is going to operate it out of the 19 existing money. I have been listening and, as a 20 businessman, he keeps telling me that there is no money 21 in that budget. I don't think you can add any 22 additional services until you correct what you are 23 doing now. I don't think the Canadian people are going 24 to really care. It is a shame because this is a 25 valuable service, and I think it is very important as a StenoTran 197 1 nation to be able to talk to one another from this 2 coast to that coast, back and forth, north and south, 3 east and west. I think it is key to keep this country 4 together. 5 1015 I am prepared to invest the money and 6 the time in it, and I think that is why I came here 7 tonight to talk about it, because I don't think anyone 8 is talking about the organizational structure. 9 1016 I think that if you okay the vision 10 and add a Radio Three, it takes away resources from 11 Radio One and Radio Two. Let's have Radio One. Let's 12 have the feed from the regions. Let's have a national 13 service so we can talk to one another. Let's do it 14 well. 15 1017 The same on the TV side. I don't 16 know whether, with all the choices today, that we can 17 divvy up the market. I think the key thing to look at 18 is content that you have to sell. I don't think there 19 is enough content. We are not putting the resources. 20 We have repeats on the radio; we have repeats on TV. 21 1018 "The National" starts at 9:00 on 22 Channel 14, goes to 10:00 on Channel 8 here locally, 23 and repeats again. That is how they say they get some 24 numbers, but it doesn't work. 25 1019 I say let's take a look at what we StenoTran 198 1 are doing now and let's make it better and address the 2 structural problems. We have to get some 3 accountability here, and we have to focus on the core 4 operation before we add anything else to this 5 operation. I think it is key. 6 1020 In the TV side, I think we ought to 7 eliminate advertising off it. I think it ought to be 8 funded properly so they don't have to do a begging 9 number, like TVOntario does all the time, interrupting 10 all the programming. I don't like that. If citizens 11 felt that they were getting something, I think they 12 would pay for it. 13 1021 I don't like the special tariff idea 14 based on cable subscription. Pay it out of the general 15 revenues, tax revenues of this country, but do it well. 16 1022 I think it is key that we look at a 17 couple of things: focus the operation, look at the 18 content, put the resources in. We need it. I think 19 that if we don't, we won't be here in a few years 20 talking about the renewal. I think it will die, those 21 options. 22 1023 I think it is a real challenge. I 23 think it is an exciting time, both for the corporation 24 and for the regulators in this country, to take a look 25 at how you could change it. I think that the Canadian StenoTran 199 1 public is interested. A lot of people won't speak up. 2 You have started with this discussion and you can 3 pursue it along, but I think you have to look at where 4 we are now, how we can build on it before we add 5 anything and make the system accountable. 6 1024 When you read about some program that 7 is critically acclaimed, excuse me, to me, that means 8 no one watched the damn program. I want to see some 9 numbers. I don't mind spending if I get something. 10 And I don't mind if it is fringe programming. I want 11 to see something. 12 1025 Somebody has got to want to watch 13 this thing other than somebody who sold some producer 14 on the concept. Somebody has got to watch. And it 15 should be some numbers, some significant numbers. 16 1026 I think that is key, and I don't 17 think that is too much to ask of the public dollar. 18 That is basically what I want to say. 19 1027 Thank you for the opportunity. 20 Again, thank you for coming to Sudbury and giving us 21 this opportunity to talk. 22 1924 23 1028 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We 24 appreciate your joining in the conversation. 25 1029 Is there anyone else in the audience StenoTran 200 1 who would like to come to the table to make some 2 remarks? 3 1030 Sir -- and I will get this right this 4 time -- would you kindly tell us who you are. 5 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 6 1031 MR. JENNINGS: My name is Alan 7 Jennings. I am an engineer and scientist. I have 8 lived in Sudbury for 32 years. 9 1032 Good evening. Thank you for this 10 opportunity. 11 1033 I do not have a prepared 12 presentation, because I only recently learned of the 13 fact of your visit, but there are some things about the 14 topic which do concern me. I am not coming from a 15 position of any particular bias, but I do perceive 16 certain things which I would like to suggest may be of 17 interest to you and should be watched in the future. 18 1034 I would agree that CBC has many, many 19 excellent programs, and my remarks would also take CBC 20 in the context of television programming in general, 21 rather than particularly CBC. I would like to make 22 some observations about CBC and the other channels 23 which seem to me to have a similar focus at time. 24 1035 One of my concerns is the 25 superficiality of many of the programs, particulary StenoTran 201 1 political programs lacking in depth, frequently biased, 2 in my opinion. And I try to take a reasonably detached 3 view. I don't have any particular axe to grind. 4 1036 Sometimes one has the impression that 5 the public is a mass to be manipulated. For example, 6 one frequently can perceive within advertisements a 7 political agenda, whether it be feminism, sexism, or 8 Quebec separatism. I believe there is frequently a 9 lack of objectivity and depth of investigation. 10 1037 Another subject that concerns me, 11 being an engineer and scientist, is that science is not 12 well treated on television. If you want an example, 13 the handling of global warming is a very distorted 14 viewpoint which has very little scientific backing 15 quite frequently. 16 1038 There is frequently a focus on 17 triviality, violence and sex, and tacky ads. I think 18 the standards of some of the advertisements that are 19 shown on television are (a) politically biased and (b) 20 objectionable from a taste point of view. 21 1039 If you want me to quote an example, I 22 think one gets a little tired of ads for diarrhoea 23 medicines and hygiene products, of which there seems to 24 be an interminable number. 25 1040 I perceive that there is in fact StenoTran 202 1 little attempt to draw the country together. Again, 2 what is done is largely superficial. I think there 3 could be a much greater effort to present, for example, 4 what Quebeckers think. I believe that there is biased 5 comment in favour of separatism within the programs 6 that we see. 7 1041 I would like to suggest that the 8 numbers of people who listen to a particular program is 9 not a major criterion as to (a) its effectiveness or 10 (b) its desirability. You may aim at a small audience 11 for a particular reason. 12 1042 What I am suggesting is that we 13 should not necessarily follow the lowest common 14 denominator in terms of programming; that some times 15 you aim for an audience of perhaps people who may wish 16 to change the political system in which large numbers 17 of people are not interested. But that doesn't say 18 that we shouldn't have politically oriented programs, 19 provided they are balanced and not distorted or biased. 20 1043 I think it was clear from some of the 21 other comments that were made that I am not the only 22 person who is concerned about bias, integrity and 23 fairness or accountability. I would like to suggest 24 that you have an awesome responsibility and that some 25 of these problems need a very carefully selected range StenoTran 203 1 of opinion. Frequently opinion seem to me to have been 2 either self-selected that are broadcast or selected 3 from a relatively small number or a limited 4 perspective. Shall I put it that way. 5 1044 I would like to see some more 6 objectivity, an examination of serious issues which 7 affect the country in depth. 8 1045 I still don't know exactly what 9 Quebec would really like to have, despite innumerable 10 programs: the depth, the penetration of what people are 11 really after and whether this is in fact economics or 12 whether it is emotional, history, traditional, or what. 13 I don't think we are getting at these major topics in 14 any appreciable depth. 15 1046 I would like to thank you for the 16 opportunity to throw in a few fairly unprepared 17 comments. 18 1047 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 19 much, Mr. Jennings. 20 1048 I think what we might do is take a 21 short break. As I said earlier, we had planned to go a 22 little later, so we will hold on in case somebody joins 23 us later in the evening. 24 1049 Mr. Secretary, has anybody come into 25 the room from the registered list that you read out StenoTran 204 1 previously? Perhaps you could check again. 2 1050 MR. LAHAY: Thank you, Madam Chair. 3 1051 We will go over the list again to see 4 if anybody has entered the room since we did it a 5 little while ago. 6 1052 Rudi Steinmar; Armand Houle; Martin 7 Potter; Helmut Goebel; Jan Steven. 8 1053 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sheryl Kennelly? 9 1054 Si vous voulez, on va prendre une 10 pause de dix minutes. We will break for ten minutes 11 and come back at 25 to eight and see if anybody joins 12 us at that time. 13 1055 Thank you. 14 --- Recess at 1925 / Suspension à 1925 15 --- Upon resuming at 1935 / Reprise à 1935 16 1056 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right, we are 17 going to -- on va recommencer. We will reconvene. I 18 have two people to invite to the table. 19 1057 Monsieur Ouellette, I believe you 20 expressed an interest, and Mr. Halchuk will also return 21 to the table. 22 1058 MR. LAHAY: If you wouldn't mind 23 stating your name, please, for the record. 24 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 25 1059 MR. OUELLETTE: My name is Leonard StenoTran 205 1 Ouellette. I am an employee with the Conseil scolaire 2 catholique du nouvel Ontario. I was born and raised in 3 Sudbury, for 40 years. 4 1060 It makes me a little bit nervous to 5 come up and speak here. I am not a spokesperson, but I 6 have a few words to say. 7 1061 I am a little bit surprised on what I 8 am hearing, because I really thought this was strictly 9 for radio, but I believe it is for television as well. 10 I don't have much to say for television, for the fact 11 that I just watched the news. I don't watch much 12 television. Therefore, I am only going to comment on 13 what I think of the radio and what it does for me in my 14 life. 15 1062 I believe CBC radio attracts people 16 who listen, a type of people who want to know what is 17 going on nationally, locally and provincially. It also 18 attracts the kind of people who don't want to hear 19 constant commercial, advertising and music that is 20 repetitious and gets on your nerves in the long run. 21 It attracts people who want to listen to conversation, 22 and what not. 23 1063 I am not one to write or call in to 24 the radio. I am a typical listener, who listens and 25 enjoys what is being said. I like their programs from StenoTran 206 1 top to bottom, on how it is presented and how it is 2 offered. I think it is critical in the sense that any 3 other local radios do not offer this. It is strictly 4 based on the bottom line, so therefore lots of 5 advertising and gibberish and ridiculous humour and 6 what not. 7 1064 I would also like to point out that I 8 do listen to all stations in Sudbury. I am bilingual 9 and I listen to the CBC, the university station and the 10 other locals. But when I want a little bit of peace 11 and what not, the CBC is what I like to listen to. 12 1065 I heard some statistics that you 13 capture 11 per cent of the general public. Is this for 14 radio as well; that your audience is 11 per cent of the 15 listeners. Is that what it is: 16 1066 THE CHAIRPERSON: If you are 17 addressing a question to the CBC, perhaps later when 18 they come to the table they could respond. 19 1067 MR. OUELLETTE: Statistics are nice, 20 but from my understanding you have to get statistics 21 that are based on a specific group. I don't believe 22 this is just any group that listens to the CBC. You do 23 have a wide range, but it has to be people who are 24 interested in the country, people who read and people 25 who do this. StenoTran 207 1 1068 What it does to me is that it is 2 truly a learning station. I feel that the country is 3 small because of this station. To privatize is always 4 easy, but I think if it is to go that route, you would 5 have to put a lot of contingencies, such as rules as to 6 who is to advertise, how much advertising. And again, 7 your contents of topics would have to be a criteria as 8 to privatizing and not just becoming another radio 9 station. 10 1069 That's all I have to say. 11 1950 12 1070 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 13 Ouellette. We appreciate your comments. 14 1071 Mr. Halchuk, we have asked you to 15 make a clarification. I think you wanted, in fact, to 16 clarify a point that you raised in your remarks. 17 1072 MR. HALCHUK: Thank you. In my 18 presentation I made an assumption that obviously was 19 not conveyed properly. 20 1073 First of all, why we are addressing 21 the English language media is the fact that in our 22 community we are a fourth generation community. We are 23 talking about people whose primary language is English. 24 1074 In Sudbury alone, when I take a look 25 at the associations, even there the languages have been StenoTran 208 1 transferred from Ukrainian to English in the 2 operations. So when you are looking at 86 per cent of 3 the population that primarily deals in English, a large 4 portion of it dealing trilingually in Ukrainian, 5 English and French as well, the fact that when we are 6 asking for programming, we are looking for programming 7 in English primarily, and also in French. 8 1075 That is why out of the nine 9 recommendations there is only one that speaks to 10 actually having a language other than English in 11 French. And that was the one re broadcasting in 12 international languages. 13 1076 We are looking for interesting 14 programs. The people growing up here are interested in 15 that aspect of it. During our congress, for example, 16 we had a major topic on education: how do we convey 17 the Ukrainian Canadian culture using the English 18 language. 19 1077 We had a gentleman at one point in 20 one of our conferences who is from Irish background, 21 and this helped. In effect, we are talking about the 22 English language conveying the message, the ethnic 23 programming in that fashion. 24 1078 Thank you. 25 1079 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for StenoTran 209 1 clarifying that on the public record. 2 1080 Is there anyone else who wishes to 3 make a comment? 4 1081 CBC, do you have any further remarks, 5 because we have had some speakers since your last 6 remarks? 7 1082 If you wish to take a little time, 8 Mr. Taylor, that's fine 9 --- Off microphone / Sans microphone 10 1083 THE CHAIRPERSON: No problem. 11 1084 MR. LAHAY: Just for housekeeping 12 order, I would like to remind everybody that if you did 13 take advantage of the translation services here this 14 afternoon or this evening, please remember to return 15 their device to the front of the room, at the side. 16 1085 Thank you. 17 --- Pause / Pause 18 1086 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 19 everyone. I believe Mr. Taylor is ready now. 20 1087 Please proceed. 21 REPLY / RÉPLIQUE 22 1088 MR. TAYLOR: Just again to say thank 23 you, Madam Chair, to all of those who took the time to 24 make presentations and to affording us the opportunity 25 to hearing this first hand. StenoTran 210 1 1089 Thank you very much. 2 1090 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 3 much. 4 1091 I think we have agreed that there is 5 no one else in the room, unless I see a hand come up -- 6 or if there is anybody behind the post. I cannot see 7 through concrete -- although we have certainly been 8 hearing. I think the musicians have either moved 9 upstairs or the hockey tournament is going on upstairs, 10 from the banging around. 11 1092 I am then ready to draw to a close. 12 We would like to thank all the participants of this 13 afternoon and this evening for coming here to share 14 with us your thoughts, your expectations, your comments 15 on the CBC and all of its services. 16 1093 Au nom de mes collègues, j'aimerais 17 remercier tout le monde qui est venu ici cet après-midi 18 et ce soir. Vos commentaires sont très importants dans 19 le processus public à l'égard de l'avenir de SRC/CBC. 20 1094 I would like to thank staff, thanks 21 to the translation, not only the gentleman with the 22 devices but the gentleman doing the translation, and to 23 our court reporter. 24 1095 Thank you again. 25 1096 I believe, then, that closes this StenoTran 211 1 public consultation. 2 1097 Thank you, Sudbury. 3 --- Whereupon the consultation concluded at 1955 / 4 Le consultation se termine à 1955 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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