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Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

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                       SUBJECT / SUJET:

                  SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

Gallery I                               Gallery I
Landmark Hotel &                        Landmark Hotel &
Conference Centre                       Conference Centre
1400 Robson Street                      1400, rue Robson
Vancouver, B.C                          Vancouver (C.-B.)

March 16, 1999                          Le 16 mars 1999

                          Volume  1
tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668


In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.


Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.


                 Canadian Radio-television and
                 Telecommunications Commission

              Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
                télécommunications canadiennes

                  Transcript / Transcription

              Public Hearing / Audience publique

                  SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)


Françoise Bertrand                      Chairperson / Présidente
                                        Présidente du Conseil /
                                        Chairperson of the


Carolyn Pinsky                          Commission Counsel /
                                        Avocate du Conseil

Marguerite Vogel                        Regional Director,
                                        Vancouver / Directrice
                                        régionale, Vancouver

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

Gallery I                               Gallery I
Landmark Hotel &                        Landmark Hotel &
Conference Centre                       Conference Centre
1400 Robson Street                      1400, rue Robson
Vancouver, B.C                          Vancouver (C.-B.)

March 16, 1999                          Le 16 mars 1999

                          Volume  1




Presentation by / Présentation par:

Mr. Jacob Rempel                                             5

Mr. Serge Robichaud                                         13

Ms Samantha McIntyre                                        20

Mr. Ken Grieve                                              26

Mr. Phil Savath                                             31

Mr. Hugh Beard                                              39

Mr. Arthur Hughs                                            46

Ms Audrey Johnson                                           54

Mr. David A. Sinclair                                       57

Ms Shirley Campbell                                         61

Mr. Gordon Elliot                                           68

Mr. John Juliani                                            73

Mr. Patty McLeod                                            77

Mr. Jay Hamburger                                           81

Mr. Kalle Lasn                                              92

Ms Nancy Black                                              99

Ms Joan Robinson                                           104

Ms Linda Kelly                                             106

Ms Goldie Rodgers                                          112

Ms Jillian Tebbitt                                         125

Mr. Donald Morin                                           132





Presentation by / Présentation par:

Mme Martine Galibois-Barss,                                143
M. Maurice Morin

Mr. Colin Miles                                            155

Mr. Philip Keatley                                         163

Mr. Montgomery Baxter                                      173

Mme Diane Côté,                                            177
Mme Nicole Bernier

Mr. Patrick Brown                                          187

Ms Sue Truscott                                            194

Mr. Michael Francis                                        200

Ms Shari Graydon                                           211

Mr. Robert Hackett                                         219

Ms Ingrid Nordhal                                          235

Mr. David Price                                            241

Mr. Hugh Nevin                                             245

Mr. Robert Kerr                                            255

Mr. Sid Tan                                                264

Mr. Douglas Hogg                                           269

Ms Elsie Jang                                              276

M. Alain Paquin                                            281

Ms Kathryn Barker                                          291





Presentation by / Présentation par:

Ms Connie Fogal                                            295

Mr. Daryl Duke                                             303

Mr. Dick Hamilton                                          313

Ms Patricia Speakman                                       319

Ms Joanne Blake                                            323

Mr. Ian Boothby                                            327

Mme Danielle Arcand                                        334

Mr. Peter Buitenhuis                                       340

Ms Alma Lee                                                344

Mr. Rob Picard                                             346

Ms Heather Leighton                                        352

Mr. Bill Beck                                              361

Ms A.K. Stewart Muldoon                                    364

Ms Sinéed Fostad                                           376

Reply by: / Réponse par:

Ms Rae Hall                                                 86

Ms Rae Hall                                                229

Mr. Lyle Montague                                          380



 1                          Vancouver, B.C / Vancouver (C.-B.)
 2     --- Upon commencing on Tuesday, March 16, 1999
 3         at 0900 / L'audience débute le mardi 16 mars 1999
 4         à 0900
 5  1                    CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Good
 6     day, ladies and gentlemen and welcome to the public
 7     consultations on the CBC.
 8  2                    My name is Françoise Bertrand and I
 9     am the CRTC's chairperson.  We are here to gather your
10     views and comments on CBC radio and television.  In
11     your opinion, how should the CBC fulfil its role in the
12     coming years.
13  3                    The CBC is a national public service
14     broadcasting in English as well as in French.  It plays
15     an important role in the Canadian broadcasting system. 
16     Today, many elements are constantly being added to the
17     broadcasting system as new technologies multiply,
18     converge, open up new horizons and increasingly offer
19     new services.  In this context, we want to know what
20     are your needs and expectations as viewers and
21     listeners of the CBC.
22  4                    Given that, it is very important that
23     the Commission hears what you have to say.  We must not
24     lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public
25     organization that serves Canadian citizens.  In this


 1     capacity, we are responsible to you.  This is why my
 2     fellow commissioners and myself find it vital to come
 3     and meet with you and to discuss these issues and why
 4     we are holding this series of regional consultations
 5     from one end of the country to the other, in 11
 6     Canadian cities from March 9th to 18th.
 7  5                    These consultations are designed to
 8     give you a chance, on the eve of a new millennium to
 9     express your opinion on the CBC's role, the programming
10     it offers and the direction it should take at the
11     national, regional and local levels.
12  6                    Through these consultations, we hope
13     to enter into an open dialogue with you and to hear
14     your concerns.  Your comments will form part of the
15     public record which will be added to the record of the
16     public hearing on the CBC that will begin in Hull, next
17     May 25th.
18  7                    At this upcoming hearing, the
19     commission will examine the CBC's application for the
20     renewal of its licences, including radio, television
21     and its specialty services, "Newsworld" and "Réseau de
22     l'information".  You can also take part in that public
23     hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 
24     If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the
25     specific licence renewals being examined when you file


 1     your comments.
 2  8                    Now, I would like to come back to
 3     today's consultations.  Please allow me to introduce
 4     the CRTC staff who will be assisting us today.  Carolyn
 5     Pinsky, our legal counsel and Marguerite Vogel, the
 6     director of our western and territories regional
 7     office.
 8  9                    Now, I should also tell you that we
 9     have friends next door because you had answered in such
10     a great number to our call for the consultation that we
11     decided to hold the consultation in two different
12     rooms.  So commissioner Cindy Grauer, the British
13     Columbia commissioner, is in the other room with
14     Margaret Vogel who is the director of our western and
15     territories regional office.
16  10                   If you have any question as to
17     information on how will the day unfold or any other
18     question, please feel free to call on Carolyn Pinsky
19     with any question you might have about the process.
20  11                   So that all will have the opportunity
21     to speak, we ask that you please limit your
22     presentation to ten minutes as these consultations are
23     a forum designed especially for you and we want to
24     listen to as many participants as possible, we will not
25     ask any questions, unless we need clarification.


 1  12                   At the end of this session,
 2     representatives from the local CBC stations will have a
 3     chance to offer their views as they are naturally very
 4     interested by the issues we are discussing here today.
 5  13                   Before we start, I would ask our
 6     counsel to go over some of the housekeeping matters
 7     regarding the conduct of this consultation.
 8  14                   Merci.
 9  15                   MS PINSKY:  Thank you, Madam Chair, I
10     will just briefly outline the process we will be
11     following today.
12  16                   First, I will be calling a group of
13     around approximately ten people, although I notice that
14     I think our first six presenters are already at the
15     table.
16  17                   But as we proceed, I will be calling
17     on the presenters up in groups of ten and then I will
18     in turn call each presenter to make their 10-minute
19     presentation.
20  18                   Just a note, when you begin to speak,
21     if you could turn on the mike so that the proceeding
22     can be recorded accurately and then when you are
23     finished, turn it off to avoid feedback.
24  19                   We have translation services
25     available in this room so if anyone should require


 1     them, please go to the back of the room and I believe
 2     you can get a device at the back.
 3  20                   In addition to those who are present
 4     today but who do not wish to make a presentation, we do
 5     have comment sheets at the front desk.  And if you wish
 6     to write some comments down, they will be put on the
 7     public file.  So with that, I believe we can begin with
 8     our first presenter.
 9  21                   CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  I am
10     just wondering, there is a musical background.  I find
11     that a little distracting.
12  22                   MS PINSKY:  As you begin, I will
13     leave the room and take care of that.  I was noticing
14     that as well.
15  23                   The first presenter will be Mr.
16     Rempel.
18  24                   MR. REMPEL:  Yes, I am Jacob Rempel,
19     I represent no organization.  I am a retired teacher. 
20     I have allowed all memberships to lapse in every
21     organization.  I am from British Columbia now.  I have
22     lived in Saskatchewan, Manitoba.  My family identifies
23     with all parts of Canada with sisters, brothers and
24     children in every province of Canada.
25  25                   I met my wife Elsie when we were both


 1     teachers in Manitoba.  That is where I am coming from,
 2     perhaps.  As a citizen and as a teacher, I have been a
 3     principal, I have done some studies in curriculum, in
 4     graduate studies and so on and some work in that field. 
 5     I have worked among the First Nations in northern
 6     Saskatchewan and I think I have a reasonably
 7     well-rounded experience in Canada, including social and
 8     political organizations.  So that when people are often
 9     introduced in order to enhance their credibility,
10     whatever this does to enhance my credibility, that is
11     all I can offer.
12  26                   When Marshall McLuhan went to school,
13     his teacher Harold Innis explained how the original
14     nations and immigrant explorers and traders
15     communicated sea to sea with each other and with the
16     land itself.  They became the medium and the message.
17  27                   We have continued that process for
18     about 400 years with social organizations, political
19     organizations, with war sometimes, with canals, with
20     roads.  Public enterprises like that, with bridges,
21     railroads, telegraphs, telephones, airlines, radio and
22     television and we still have radio and television.  The
23     others are somewhat diminished as the ties that bind
24     us.  They are still there but in much less effectual
25     than they used to be.


 1  28                   But radio and television being part
 2     of the new communications revolution are still there
 3     and they can still be instruments of national policy
 4     and I hope the CRTC will throw its weight behind those
 5     who want it to continue to be so.  There are very
 6     strong forces now and the tides of globalization, free
 7     trade are so strong that we need someone a little
 8     stronger than Camus to stop some of them.
 9  29                   The CRTC was, after all, set up to
10     serve some of the same imperatives of Canadian
11     sovereignty as were all the other ties that bind us. 
12     It is, therefore, your responsibility to ensure that
13     this CBC communications network is made stronger, not
14     weakened.  It should not do more with less, it should
15     to more with more.
16  30                   It is the only coherent
17     communications network we have to unify our over 300
18     million people socially, culturally and politically. 
19     Well, that is not quite true.  We have another network,
20     the schools, the public schools are a medium which is,
21     after all, continues like the CBC to be under the
22     boards of Canadian citizens.  And all the directors of
23     every public -- and citizens of Canada and so are the
24     provincial governments which are the prime movers in
25     curriculum development and so on.


 1  31                   Except in one sense the federal
 2     government in Washington, D.C. has very significant
 3     influence in the curriculum of Canada.  One of the most
 4     dramatic ones was when Sputnik circled the globe and we
 5     adopted a dozen thick science and mathematics textbooks
 6     developed by the curriculum centres promoted and
 7     financed by the Government of the United States.
 8  32                   So every school, every province,
 9     provincial government and district in Canada, including
10     Quebec, used those huge textbooks developed in the
11     United States.  And they did not help our science
12     program, by the way.  Very often it reduced the
13     development of our science knowledge and social studies
14     and literature.
15  33                   Very similar things happened through
16     the publishing companies in the United States.  So that
17     is still there.  So the federal government does
18     influence us in Canada, public schools, but it is the
19     federal government of the United States.  And they have
20     their agenda and I do not think it corresponds closely
21     with ours.
22  34                   So there was a hint of mandate review
23     recently which trial date balloons politically about
24     the tenure of leadership in the CBC and also a hint of
25     integrating the French and English leadership.  If that


 1     leadership is created to promote Canadian unity, then
 2     that kind of unified leadership and programming would
 3     be good.  And if the CRTC has any input, I hope that
 4     you will exert such influence for unity.
 5  35                   What I would like to see the CBC do
 6     and the National Film Board is to become much more
 7     helpful resources for the public schools of Canada.
 8     When I was a student in a one-room school in
 9     Saskatchewan, there was some cooperation between the
10     Department of Education and the CBC.  They taught us
11     the folk songs of Canada on the radio for those
12     teachers who felt not prepared to do so, were not able
13     to do so.
14  36                   So we learned the folk songs of
15     Canada on the CBC a few times a week, with R.J. Staples
16     being the music director for the province, a wonderful
17     program.  And, believe it or not, when I became a
18     teacher in a two-room school in Saskatchewan, I used
19     that same program to teach the folk songs of Canada.  A
20     small example of what could be done with cooperation
21     between the government and the provincial governments,
22     the public schools and the CBC.
23  37                   Similarly, the National Film Board
24     does that and I have used those resources as a teacher
25     very often.  I think of two examples that I have used,


 1     for example, the legend of how the loon got its
 2     necklace was one that I have used a lot.  It is a short
 3     film which uses masks for somewhat like the ancient
 4     Greek dramas did.  And I found that my students, and I
 5     have taught schools in high schools, elementary schools
 6     and in prisons, in every one of those class rooms, the
 7     students loved those and were motivated to want a lot
 8     more of them.  Anna and David Milne dancing a pas de
 9     deux is another great film like that.  It was done in
10     slow motion by Norman MacLaren, the animator.
11  38                   Well, these are just a few small
12     examples but they are not being used very much and
13     there is a lot of great social studies material and
14     literature material and the CBC has wonderful stuff
15     that could be used in schools and it never is.
16  39                   The National Film Board is not really
17     accessible to the modern teachers.  With the modern
18     networks of the Internet and so on moving into every
19     class room, I notice that the Department of Industry
20     federally is working a little bit in that field in
21     promoting the Internet use in all the class rooms.
22     There could be a huge cooperation among these various
23     agencies and the provincial governments and school
24     boards and to create very rich Canadian content in the
25     schools.


 1  40                   We have enough literature and art and
 2     music in Canada now that could fill our curriculum -- I
 3     do not want it to be strictly Canadian -- but to fill
 4     every hour of every classroom with very rich material
 5     in literature, art, music and history, written in
 6     Canada, produced in Canada, so that we do not have to
 7     fill our classrooms with hours and hours and hours of
 8     British and American and French -- I mean from
 9     France -- literature and art.
10  41                   We have it in Canada now, in the last
11     50 years we have an enormous renaissance that people do
12     not know about, especially the children in schools.  I
13     would like this to happen.
14  42                   Perhaps instead of reducing the
15     National Film Board budget and the CBC budget, let the
16     two organizations perhaps amalgamate and work together
17     with the departments of education and with very
18     competent curriculum development experts we have in our
19     universities and really develop an institution and
20     curriculum centre, I don't know.
21  43                   I have -- in other venues I have
22     described a few scenarios of how this could be done but
23     we have every confidence that you could work out any
24     one of a number of scenarios how this could be done so
25     that our schools could use the materials we already


 1     have to create a genuinely Canadian education.
 2  44                   Thank you.
 3  45                   CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
 4     you Mr. Rempel.  I deduct from your intervention that
 5     you are not proposing that the CBC becomes an
 6     educational network, but rather that kind of produce --
 7     or help producing content that could be helpful for
 8     educational purposes, is that?
 9  46                   MR. REMPEL:  Well, I know the
10     Constitution with respect to education, but I also know
11     that every province including Quebec has absorbed
12     curriculum material from everywhere in the world and it
13     could be a very close cooperation among various
14     institutions, public and private that produce
15     curriculum resources, it could be very arm's length
16     from political decisions but nevertheless it could be
17     there and so accessible and so attractive that every
18     educational institution from kindergarten through
19     junior colleges would want that material and would
20     seize it, every teacher.
21  47                   CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Well,
22     thank you for your intervention this morning and you
23     definitely establish your credibility by your
24     background by also your caring and coming forward this
25     morning.


 1  48                   MR. REMPEL:  It is not written down,
 2     so I cannot leave anything with you, but I think you
 3     have it on tape.
 4  49                   CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Yes,
 5     we do.  Thank you very much.
 6  50                   MR. REMPEL:  I meant to say that we
 7     have only the CBC and the schools and David Orchard
 8     fighting for Canada, it seems.
 9  51                   MS PINSKY:  Merci.  Le prochain
10     intervenant est M. Serge Robichaud.
11  52                   CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
12     Bonjour.
14  53                   MR. ROBICHAUD:  Bonjour.  My name is
15     Serge Robichaud, I live in Maple Ridge, B.C., I have
16     been paying income tax now for over 25 years.  I
17     support the CBC in certain functions others I do not. 
18     I have two examples here of very bad journalism from TV
19     but I will keep away from these because of time
20     constraints.  If I have time at the end of my
21     presentation I will reintroduce them.
22  54                   I do not want to shut down CBC or
23     make it into a commercial corporation.  I would rather
24     it be fixed and be made more accountable to the public
25     and in defending the public interests not to defend the


 1     private corporations, they are powerful enough.  They
 2     do not need taxpayers to help defend the corporations. 
 3     We need very different system of governance for the CBC
 4     to keep government and corporate interests at a good
 5     distance.
 6  55                   I do not have a model to suggest
 7     right now, but I am looking for one and perhaps Mr.
 8     Morrison of the friends of public broadcasting or
 9     Robert McCechny, the American critic might have some
10     suggestions that we could follow.
11  56                   I would like to say a few words about
12     Canadian culture in American culture.
13  57                   Back in the 1950s we had the McCarthy
14     era and the McCarthy witch-hunt.  Pete Seeger in the
15     Weavers, popular group were victims of that area.  They
16     are popular songs of working class struggles. 
17     Eventually they were forbidden to perform publicly.  We
18     all know this story, but there are other stories like
19     this and even today we have similar stories of critics
20     being forbidden, musical critics being forbidden to
21     play publicly.
22  58                   American culture is cleansed to
23     protect the very wealthy and influential and to protect
24     the corporate citizens from a true democracy.  There is
25     no room for this in democracy.  The American people do


 1     not deserve it and neither do we.
 2  59                   I am not saying we do not have some
 3     form of cultural cleansing here in Canada.  I am saying
 4     it is not good for democracy.  Whatever comes across
 5     the border on TV, on NBC, ABC or CBS, I never bother
 6     looking at it.
 7  60                   However, there are these American
 8     dissidents that I do want to hear, the American
 9     intellectuals that I do want to hear, the intellectuals
10     and the critics like Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, Ralph
11     Nader, Robert McChesny, Ben Baknakin, et cetera.  There
12     are hundreds of these very -- with very valuable
13     arguments but very seldom hear them on commercial
14     airwaves.  Most of them are labeled un-American by
15     commercial media and deemed unsuitable for broadcast.
16  61                   Now, I would like to talk -- I would
17     like to leave TV and talk about radio.  Radio is very
18     important to me.  I work quite a bit and then when I am
19     not working I am at home with a family, small children. 
20     I do not have time to sit there and read newspapers or
21     watch TV.
22  62                   Radio, however, is a very valuable
23     tool for transmitting information of importance to
24     democratic process.  Especially for those like me, who
25     do not have time to read or even many of us who cannot


 1     read.  I always listen while I work, while I cook, wash
 2     dishes, drive the car.  You can listen to radio and be
 3     informed if you are a track driver, a farmer ploughing
 4     the field, a car mechanic, a carpenter, anyone can
 5     listen to radio.  Radio services should never be cut
 6     off from the CBC.  It is the most effective
 7     communication tool that we have.
 8  63                   Now, I would like to mention
 9     something about commercial radio stations.  We have
10     here in B.C. one or two very popular talk show hosts
11     who somewhat claim to be the bastions of free speech.
12     They are not with CBC, they are with private commercial
13     establishments.  I phoned in a few times to complain
14     about certain aspects of free trade and the global
15     economy.  To be specific, I am working in small
16     business and I have very -- some of my friends have a
17     very hard time getting financing for their projects,
18     projects that are $10,000 or less.  Very hard time
19     getting this financing here in B.C.
20  64                   On the other hand, we have these
21     investment dealers today it is a new phenomenon, came
22     with free trade, we have one on just about every street
23     corner telling us to take our money out of B.C., out of
24     can do to invest in the New York stock exchange or some
25     of these Third World mutual funds.  They even have some


 1     that come back and speculate against the Canadian
 2     dollar.  I know there is something very wrong here and
 3     it is not being addressed in the public debates.
 4  65                   Now, I tried three times to get Mr.
 5     Free speech to address these issues and three times I
 6     got cut off in mid-sentence.  "Time for a commercial
 7     break", or, as I often heard, "oh, these global trading
 8     issues are much too complicated, we must leave it to
 9     the experts."  End of the story.
10  66                   Globalization is not that
11     complicated.  We often hear Noam Chomsky and similar
12     critics here on Vancouver's cooperative radio.  They
13     explain in fine detail what global economics are all
14     about.  The problem we have with commercial stations
15     here and Mr. Free speech on his station is that more
16     than 30 per cent of his advertising clients are
17     institutions that actually profitize from the
18     globalization phenomena, that is bankers and investment
19     dealers, the very object of my criticism.  So three
20     quarters of the small business people that I work to,
21     they listen to this show without realizing what I would
22     say is a fraud put on to them.
23  67                   This is only one example of why
24     commercial broadcasting is not compatible with
25     democracy, it can be off.  It has to exploit or sell


 1     off its listening audience in order to generate
 2     advertising revenue.
 3  68                   I have one example here of a very
 4     dubious broadcast, typical telling us to take our money
 5     out of Canada, put it in the stock market because
 6     Canada is too heavily in debt to be a functioning
 7     nation.  I thought it to be very outrageous and I do
 8     not want to hear this on CBC.
 9  69                   To conclude, what I want from my CBC
10     radio tax dollars is more political analysis, more
11     critical analysis on the federal, provincial and
12     municipal stage.
13  70                   I want arm's length from government
14     and from big business and from the banks.  I do not
15     care much for CBC for cooking, recipes or good
16     gardening tips.  Perhaps other people will support
17     that.  It is not my preference.
18  71                   I am interested in more of the
19     American dissidents, Norm Chomsky, Howard Zinn, Danny
20     Schacter and the Canadian dissidents like Linda
21     McQuaid, Walter Stewart, Stevie Cameron and David
22     Orchard and people like this.
23  72                   I would like to be able to vote for
24     the programs I want to hear.  Please consider it.
25  73                   CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank


 1     you very much, Mr. Robichaud.  You have a French name.
 2     do you happen to listen to the French radio as well or
 3     mainly English?
 4  74                   MR. ROBICHAUD:  Oui, des fois,
 5     j'écoute la radio française.  Mais j'ai des plaintes à
 6     propos de la radio française puis une de mes plaintes
 7     est ici au document, des affaires que je ne veux pas
 8     voir sur la télévision française, ou entendre sur la
 9     télévision française.  Si le temps le permet, je peux
10     en parler.
11  75                   LA PRÉSIDENTE: Non, je pense que ça
12     fait déjà votre intervention si on veut pouvoir laisser
13     la place aux autres.  Mais peut-être pouvez-vous
14     laisser un commentaire avec madame Pinsky pour
15     s'assurer que --
16  76                   MR. ROBICHAUD: Oui.  Cinq secondes ?
18  77                   MR. ROBICHAUD: En 1990, il y avait le
19     vidéo clip B je me souviens, répété beaucoup, beaucoup,
20     de fois sur la télévision.  C'était à la pointe du
21     'collapse' du Lac Meech.  C'était un vrai chef-d'oeuvre
22     de propagande.  Ça, je l'ai vu à plusieurs reprises sur
23     la télévision.  Qu'est-ce que je fais avec ça ?  À qui
24     je me plains ?  Comment l'arrêter ?  Un vrai
25     chef-d'oeuvre de propagande.  J'en ai une copie ici.


 1  78                   LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bien, merci, monsieur
 2     Robichaud.  Merci.
 3  79                   MS PINSKY:  Our next presenter is Ms
 4     Samantha McIntyre.
 6  80                   MS McINTYRE:  I am not good at this,
 7     I am kind of low-tech.  I am a registered clinical
 8     counsellor who has been in private practice here in
 9     Vancouver.  I have moved out of that, more into writing
10     and research because at the age of 52 Lord knows I have
11     plenty of material.
12  81                   I have been a youth worker up north
13     and a school counsellor, elementary, secondary and at
14     college campuses.
15  82                   So I have written about 50 speeches
16     and I went with one that I think is primary for human
17     development and that is the point I would like to make
18     is identity.  Because I have worked with young people
19     so long, I have had to draw on my own personal
20     experience, but I've also watched several generations
21     of young people grow up.
22  83                   My first students are now in their
23     40s.  And they come from different parts of the world. 
24     Some are recent immigrants, some are sons and daughters
25     of immigrant families and many are First Nations,


 1     Métis, Innuits, Dene, Nishnawbe, Cree.
 2  84                   And when I was living up north and
 3     certainly teaching out west and acting as a school
 4     counsellor in three different provinces, Ontario,
 5     Alberta and British Columbia, I was distressed as were
 6     other non-native teachers that there were not role
 7     models.  I had role models thanks to the CBC, to echo
 8     the teacher-principal here, when I was growing up who I
 9     was.
10  85                   I always knew I was Canadian.  My
11     Canadian citizenship was more important to me than my
12     gender, more important to me than which province I was
13     born in, more important to me than the particular
14     family that I belonged to.  The fact that I was
15     Canadian was very, very important.  And great
16     influences were the CBC, first the radio because I was
17     born before TV was available across Canada, the
18     National Film Board of Canada and the few robust
19     Canadian publishers.  So those were my sources of
20     outside influence other than the strong feelings
21     everyone in the communities in which I have lived for
22     the last 52 years have reflected being Canadian.
23  86                   So when I was living up north and
24     when I was teaching out west and acting as a school
25     counsellor and a teacher, I was looking at my First


 1     Nations students and I was thinking, "I wonder how well
 2     they are doing with affirmation of their identity, not
 3     just as Canadians but as First Nations.
 4  87                   And when there were such shows on
 5     television, on CBC, "Rainbow Country", that was one of
 6     the first TV shows that I saw that had First Nations
 7     actors not white guys painted to look native like
 8     Victor Mature, but First Nations actors.  "The
 9     Beachcombers" was the next one, "Spirit Bay" was my
10     introduction to the great and wonderful Tom Jackson.
11     And other shows such as "Danger Bay" which was a West
12     Coast set in Vancouver, actually also introduce the
13     issues having to do with First Nations concerns, West
14     Coast First Nations of the mini series "Four
15     Directions" of course, "North of 60".  For younger
16     people, "The Rez" was fun.
17  88                   Shows such as "Life and Times", "Man
18     Alive", "Nature of Things", "Witness", also have had
19     shows dealing with First Nations issues.
20  89                   On other specials such as the
21     broadcast of the films, Canadian films, such as
22     "Loyalties", "Big Bear", "The Diviners", allowed my
23     First Nations students to see people like Tom Jackson,
24     Tantu Cardinal, Gordon Tatusis along with the entire
25     cast of "North of 60", all of whom I thought were


 1     wonderful.  And radio shows such as "Dead Doing Cafe"
 2     which is a venue for the talented "Thomas King".
 3  90                   The broadcast of the aboriginal
 4     achievement awards which I believe started in 1994,
 5     when that came on it was my last year as a high school
 6     teacher and I ran around like a crazy woman in my high
 7     school grabbing every First Nations student we have,
 8     "Now, tonight, be sure you watch, even if there is
 9     anything else on, you make sure that you see this, it
10     is very important."
11  91                   And the next day, the results were
12     astounding.  These kids who were unaware of so many of
13     their fellow Canadians who had achieved great things
14     now had -- now saw the faces, heard the names, were
15     able to run out and get the CDs of musicians they had
16     never even heard of.
17  92                   Lately, thank God, we have
18     "Aboriginal Voices" magazine.  And I know the move is
19     afoot to have an aboriginal people's television network
20     which I think is important.  But I still think the CBC
21     itself should continue to mirror who we are.  We are
22     First Nations, we are Ukrainian-Canadian we are
23     Scottish-Canadian we are French-Canadian, we are
24     Chinese-Canadian, we are Japanese-Canadian.  We are all
25     the people who have come here and the first peoples who


 1     have come here.
 2  93                   And the CBC has, more than any other
 3     network in my experience, both on radio and on
 4     television, reflected more and more the faces, the only
 5     group that I -- of students that I have had are African
 6     Canadians who since the arrival of Phil Fraser and Rita
 7     Deverole on Vision TV, they may now have discovered if
 8     they were born in Manitoba, that there was a place
 9     called Africville, in Nova Scotia, which was a very old
10     community.
11  94                   So for self-realization, for
12     self-manifestation, for making it in this world in a
13     tougher and tougher and tougher world, self-definition
14     is absolutely important.  One's identity is very
15     important.  It does not bother me if someone who is
16     First Nations says, "I am First Nations first" and the
17     Canadian, well, who cares because we do not recognize
18     the border.  I do not care about that.  What I do care
19     about is that young people are affirmed, that they can
20     see black faces, that they can see Asian faces, that
21     they can see First Nations faces that they can see
22     French faces, U.K. faces, Ukrainian faces and they can
23     hear a wide variety of last names which can affirm this
24     is me, there I am right on that TV.  The CBC has been
25     able to do that, CBC radio has been able to do that.


 1  95                   I will be very upset if anything
 2     worse happens to the CBC.  I am mad as hell at our
 3     government for cutting the funding, I am furious that
 4     that has happened.  Because I know that it will affect
 5     young people growing up in this country and I know that
 6     it affects me.  And so I would ask for people in the
 7     CRTC to do the right thing even if our various
 8     government and elected officials will not, not cannot,
 9     will not.  The CRTC has the power to influence and, you
10     know, we are counting on the CRTC at this point to make
11     it so.
12  96                   Thank you.
13  97                   CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
14     you very much, Ms McIntyre.  The power of the CRTC is
15     to renew the licence of the CBC and we are taking our
16     role very seriously.  Certainly we will be the
17     messenger of all the comments we are hearing through
18     the consultation and then the public hearing.  But we
19     have no power over the financial allocations from
20     government to the CBC, unfortunately.
21  98                   MS McINTYRE:  Thank you.
22  99                   MS PINSKY:  Mr. Ken Grieve is the
23     next presenter.
24  100                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Yes,
25     good morning, Mr. Grieve.


 2  101                  MR. GRIEVE:  My name is Ken Grieve. 
 3     I do not have any particular qualifications except I am
 4     one of the few people here who has been listening to
 5     the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation as it was known
 6     in those days, since it started.
 7  102                  At that time, before that, we had
 8     quite a few local stations like CKWX, which I think is
 9     still around, and these private stations or commercial
10     stations and CKCD, et cetera.  And they had programs
11     that were quite good in some respects they used to hire
12     people like the Clangese family, for example, was on
13     one station that were orchestras and so forth.  But
14     today, of course, with the private stations if it is
15     pretty now all recorded music and talk shows and that
16     sort of thing.  And I wonder if the CBC disappeared.  I
17     think they probably would continue to be mostly just
18     reportings and canned music and I doubt whether they
19     would hire that many people.
20  103                  So I think the CBC is very vital in
21     that respect in giving employment, if nothing else to
22     our own artists.  Some of the stations in the United
23     States, we used to listen to, of course, were ones like
24     CJOR, and KOMO in Seattle.  And KJRR, KNX in Hollywood
25     and of course there was a Salt Lake City station, a


 1     very powerful station.  So that is what we were tended
 2     to be dominated to quite an extent by the American
 3     broadcasting because in many ways, of course, it was
 4     better than the local stations.
 5  104                  I would like to touch on the TV for a
 6     minute.  I do not watch TV.  As a matter of fact, my TV
 7     went on the blink a couple of years ago and I found
 8     that I have not missed it very much and I know some of
 9     my friends tell me, "Well, did you see this great
10     program last night on the CBC", or some other TV
11     station or on cable and I said that no, I will say that
12     well, no, I did not see it.  I know I missed something
13     worthwhile and I realize I miss many good programs.
14  105                  But the truth is, in a way, I do not
15     miss TV very much because CBC radio does tend to be
16     fairly good most of the time.  So that I do not really
17     feel any great loss and, therefore, I have not been
18     driven to get my TV fixed or to get another one which
19     maybe I should do.  So I would just like to touch on
20     financing.  I know that the CRTC does not have any
21     control over financing of the CBC but it occurred to me
22     that the airwaves are supposed to be publicly owned and
23     when you give a private operator whether TV or cable or
24     radio a licence, something like a licence to print
25     money in many respects, I think even today and since it


 1     is very valuable, I think that a lot of these people
 2     are probably religionists of different varieties that
 3     own and run these stations and maybe they could give a
 4     tithe of 10 per cent to finance the -- 10 per cent of
 5     their gross revenues to finance public broadcasting
 6     because we are sort of giving them a favour so that is
 7     one idea anyway.
 8  106                  I would like to say that on the
 9     whole, I find CBC TV or radio very good, music and arts
10     commentators are generally great.  I know that they are
11     running into great difficulties because of lack of
12     financing but people like Sheila Rogers and Eleanor
13     Wachtel do great interviews with different artists and
14     so on.  And, of course, the music programs are
15     excellent on the whole.
16  107                  A thought occurred to me the other
17     day and I think that one of the gentleman across the
18     way in his report mentioned this, that if you are
19     working on your computer, you are not going to be able
20     to watch TV, but you may like to have some radio in the
21     background.  So maybe this is a reason why radio is
22     quite important to many people like that.
23  108                  One thing I do feel a little critical
24     of is regarding the news reporting on the CBC, it tends
25     to be -- I know that some critics of the CBC say that


 1     the commentators and the news tends towards being
 2     socialist or something like that.  I feel that those
 3     people that think that way are like the people that
 4     used to call Mr. Trudeau a communist and of course Mr.
 5     Trudeau is a -- is not one of the wealthiest
 6     capitalists, but he is a multi-millionaire and I am
 7     sure he would shed his last drop of blood to defend the
 8     private enterprise, so-called private enterprise
 9     system.
10  109                  And so I do not think that that is
11     any more valid to say that the commentators and the
12     reporters on the CBC are socialistically inclined
13     because we get people like different people like
14     Jeffrey Sacks, the Harvard economist who has been
15     responsible for the so called Chilean shock treatment
16     and also the Polish shock treatment and also Barbara
17     Frum's daughter -- or her son, rather, I cannot think
18     of his name right now.  Anyway, they get people like
19     that who represent the right side or the conservative
20     point of view.  So I do not think we are subjected to
21     people who are just left wing in their views by any
22     means.
23  110                  I think that is probably all that I
24     wish to say.  With those words, I will end my
25     contribution.


 1  111                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
 2     Excuse me, sir, I would ask a question that you have
 3     not touched upon.  Since you have been a listener since
 4     the beginning of CBC radio, in light of the comment you
 5     were making about the covering of the Vancouver
 6     locality and community and the region, would you say
 7     that it is -- it has been the case all along, or you
 8     see that there is less covering than there used to be,
 9     would you have a comment about that?
10  112                  MR. GRIEVE:  I don't know, I think
11     the coverage is probably adequate locally in regard to
12     news, is that what you are talking about?
13  113                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Yes.
14  114                  MR. GRIEVE:  I think the coverage now
15     with the technicians strike it has not been quite as
16     good as usual but that kind of coverage is very good. 
17     I was thinking more of, I think the fellow's name was
18     Tucker, I believe, who was a producer or an independent
19     producer or something like that and he was saying this
20     morning that at one time they had a lot of money and he
21     as was talking about TV, mostly to hire a lot of
22     artists, dancers and performers of various kinds and
23     that all the money was going to Toronto now.
24  115                  MR. ANDERSON:  He felt it was far too
25     centralized and those kinds of programs, variety


 1     programs and so on were coming out of Toronto rather
 2     than Vancouver.  He thought to the second largest
 3     English speaking city in Canada should have a far
 4     better share.
 5  116                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
 6     you.
 7  117                  MS PINSKY:  The next presenter is Mr.
 8     Phil Savath.
10  118                  MR. SAVATH:  Good morning.  Well, I
11     have a -- I am coming from a slightly different
12     perspective since I am a writer and producer of
13     television, so I have a more professional view point.
14  119                  I am one of the people lucky enough
15     to be employed occasionally.  I have worked in
16     television in this country and also in the United
17     States for about 25 years as a writer and a producer
18     for the CBC locally regionally and nationally and also
19     for other stations in Canada, both regional and network
20     and also in the U.S. in the American system.
21  120                  That is only to just -- that is the
22     as the first presenter said, to introduce myself.
23  121                  25 years ago I was in an
24     improvisational theatre troop, really poor theatre
25     troop in Toronto and we were doing live improvisations


 1     on the radio in the morning where people would phone
 2     into Peter Gzosky and we would do sketches.
 3  122                  At that point we also had a small
 4     theatre school and we were given one of our students
 5     was the son of the head of CBC children's department
 6     and he proposed to us that we could have a TV series
 7     doing what we did.  And it was an insane decision on
 8     his part.  We knew nothing about it, but we were young
 9     and vigorous and interested and we wrote it and we
10     produced it and we acted in it and we helped paint the
11     sets and it was like a Judy Garland production.
12  123                  And I must say that I have always in
13     the course of my career received that kind of support
14     from the CBC creatively, especially.
15  124                  I would like to only speak
16     creatively, because that is the most important thing
17     because a network obviously should be judged by what it
18     produces and if the CBC were not to be producing what
19     it is producing, even in this current climate, I think
20     we would all be the poorer.  If there was no "Boys of
21     Saint Vincent", if there was no "Love and Hate", if
22     there was no "Conspiracy of Silence", if there was no
23     "The News Room", we would be the poorer for it. 
24     Another stop in my personal history is that I went to
25     work in 1985 for the regional CBC here in Vancouver.


 1  125                  I was hired to produce a show called
 2     "Switch Back" which is a live show on Sunday mornings
 3     for youths and teens and it involved a lot of call-ins
 4     because it was live and interactive association because
 5     it was interactive.  And the day I started there was
 6     the day that the CBC budget cuts began.  That was 14
 7     years ago.  They are still going on.
 8  126                  In the past 14 years, those programs
 9     that I have mentioned and many, many others have been
10     produced.  The series that Ms McIntyre mentioned, the
11     broad-based, inclusive, national, regional, local
12     perspectives of white, black and First Nations and
13     everyone's voice has been on the CBC.
14  127                  The schedule has been completely
15     Canadianized.  The CBC never said, "oh, we cannot
16     afford to do this now so we will stop this plan."  I
17     would argue that the CBC, as beleaguered as it is at
18     the moment, is extremely vigorous because of the
19     programming that it is producing.  But I think that it
20     is disingenuous to say that we can just continue to
21     hack money from this institution and then criticize
22     their choices of how they survive, with its closing
23     regional stations or its centralizing their operations. 
24     These are not done because this is a good idea, this is
25     done for survival.


 1  128                  And I think it is important to
 2     recognize that not only does the CBC reflect the
 3     country to itself, which is its mandate, but it
 4     reflects it to the world.  Programs that are made here
 5     are seen and shown around the world.  I have produced
 6     in the last five years three movies of the week for the
 7     CBC.  The first one, which the first one was sold to
 8     CBS and to Britain's Channel 4.
 9  129                  I do not think there is a lot of
10     other television networks that -- around the world that
11     can produce work that can be on both U.S. television
12     commercial television and on the most prestigious
13     television channel in the world which is Channel 4,
14     which is something the CBC is always being unfavourably
15     compared to.  But yet the CBC produces material that
16     Channel 4 buys and that REI buys and that Canal Plus
17     buys and that everyone in the entire world buys and
18     sees and wins awards constantly.
19  130                  The last film I did for the CBC was
20     just nominated for an international Emmy.  It was one
21     of the three finalists in the entire world.  Next week
22     I am going to the International Festival of Public
23     Television with that film.  It has been selected to be
24     shown there.  As one of my colleagues one said, this is
25     not chopped liver.  This is the stuff that they are


 1     doing in the context of constant cutting, constant
 2     restructuring, constant turning off of the tap.
 3  131                  We have a myth in this country, or a
 4     tendency in this country to deride our institutions. 
 5     But we have a social contract and that is what a
 6     government is, is a contract between people and to
 7     provide services for the people.  It is not to see how
 8     much money the post office can make, it is not to see
 9     how much money the army can make, it is to provide
10     these services because the people need them.  Yet we
11     demand in the CBC that it become fiscally responsible.
12  132                  Well, I put it to you that after
13     surviving the cutting that they have been surviving and
14     still producing the programming that they are
15     producing, they are pretty accountable.  Yet they still
16     have to sell advertising, which is anathema to a public
17     broadcaster.
18  133                  So we have a public broadcaster which
19     is not really public because it is expected to pull its
20     own weight and we have private broadcasters that are
21     anything but private.  This is a serious myth that
22     there is such a thing as private broadcasters.
23  134                  My area is drama.  If a show costs $1
24     million to make the private broadcasters pays $150,000
25     for that show.  Telefilm, which is a federal government


 1     taxpayers' money pays $250,000 per episode of the cable
 2     fund which is federal government taxpayers' money will
 3     pay up to $200,000 of that million dollars.  The
 4     province, the provincial agencies will pay up to
 5     $50,000 of that money.  $150,000 will be made up by tax
 6     brakes, tax cuts -- not tax cuts, sorry, credits, that
 7     is like $650,000 to $700,000.
 8  135                  Yet these are the private stations
 9     and we do not think had he are have any accountability
10     to us.
11  136                  We spend our time saying the CBC
12     should be accountable because we pay for that.  Well,
13     we pay for everything.  That is the reality in this
14     country.  The difference is that the money that is
15     made, as Mr. Grieve said, it is a licence to print
16     money and it certainly is because you do not see people
17     who own private networks running around in beat up old
18     cars.
19  137                  These people are making a great deal
20     of money and the money they make they keep.  Whatever
21     money the CBC makes, they put back into programming and
22     the CBC does in-house drama which means they pay the
23     entire amount which the private networks do not do.
24  138                  So I think we should be looking as we
25     look at the landscape and listen to the voices that are


 1     telling us to lose the CBC and to think about what
 2     their agenda might be because they are in competition
 3     with the CBC for public money, for serious public
 4     money.  This is not a -- well, we do everything
 5     ourselves so why should the CBC be getting all the
 6     handouts.  That is not the way it works.  The
 7     government has a choice to make and you can help them
 8     make that choice.
 9  139                  Before I go to that there is one
10     other thing I would like to say.  I work for the CBC
11     regionally here in Vancouver and we regret, you know, I
12     am sure that we do not have a great many regional
13     programs produced but even in this climate we still do. 
14     But right now, in Vancouver, the network which does not
15     have a great number of drama series on is producing two
16     one-hour drama series, big budget drama series in
17     Vancouver and next year they will be producing four in
18     Vancouver because with the two that are already on they
19     have ordered another one which happens to be one that I
20     am working on and another show.
21  140                  So there is more regional presence on
22     the national network now, again, in this reality than
23     there has ever been.  There is more programming coming
24     to Vancouver from the network than there has ever been
25     and from all the regions, from the Atlantics, from the


 1     Prairies.  It comes from every where.  Of course, it
 2     should be more rigorous at the local level but you have
 3     to allow them the opportunity to do these things.  You
 4     cannot just keep taking everything away from them and
 5     complaining about their choices.
 6  141                  You know, we have to protect what we
 7     have.  We should celebrate the successes, we should
 8     look at the fact that the CBC, instead of reading in
 9     the newspapers which are also in competition with
10     television that the CBC is crumbling when actually, in
11     fact, networks are losing audience but the CBC lost
12     less audience than any other network in Canada next
13     year.  There is a lot of myths around and we are
14     operating in a climate where people do not have the
15     real information.
16  142                  I would also like one last thing to
17     say in response to you, Madam Chairman, that while you
18     only have the power to licence, you do have a
19     responsibility to protect the environment and you have
20     the power to issue other licences to other networks and
21     to hold them accountable to those licences which I
22     would suggest the CRTC could perhaps be more vigorous
23     in their holding the so-called private broadcasters.
24  143                  Now, I have no action to axe to grind
25     with the private broadcasters, because I work with them


 1     as well.  It is just that I am upset by the level of
 2     misinformation that exists that we -- that we try to
 3     make our decision around that the public who has access
 4     to you does not have access to all the facts because I
 5     would suggest it is not in people's interests to let
 6     those facts out.
 7  144                  Before I get to sound like a
 8     conspiracy theorist, I think I should stop.  Thank you.
 9  145                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Well,
10     thank you very much.  You have certainly made your
11     contribution in bringing facts no the public network
12     and I will remember that private broadcasters are not
13     totally private.  I usually say independent producers
14     are not always independent so I will add that.
15  146                  Thank you very much.
16  147                  MS PINSKY:  The next presenter is Mr.
17     Hugh Beard.
19  148                  MR. BEARD:  Thank you.
20  149                  Madam Chairperson.
21  150                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Good
22     morning.
23  151                  MR. BEARD:  Good morning, my name is
24     Hugh Beard.  I am president of Force Four Productions. 
25     It is an independent production company based here in


 1     Vancouver and with me is rob Bromley.  He is director
 2     of program development for our company as well and if
 3     it was permissible we would probably both like to
 4     address the commission.
 5  152                  My perspective is really coming from
 6     one where I work for CBC in Vancouver in television for
 7     23 years and now I am the owner of an independent
 8     production company.  I began my career at CBC Vancouver
 9     as a studio technician and eventually worked my way to
10     become executive producer of CBC's longest running
11     series, "The Beachcombers".  And I worked on that
12     series for the first ten years of its existence and, as
13     I said, in all, I worked for the corporation for 23
14     years and I left the CBC before the CBC started to make
15     its cut backs.
16  153                  I think maybe Rob could let us --
17     tell us a little bit just as background for Force Four
18     Productions and the kind of programming relationship
19     that we have with CBC.
20  154                  MR. BROMLEY:  Force Four began when
21     Hugh left.  He set up the company to produce sort of
22     corporate communications and produce television
23     commercials and it has been in business now for 18
24     years.
25  155                  About five years ago, we began to


 1     focus on television production as well and, of course,
 2     for Hugh, it was sort of moved back into television. 
 3     We had to establish new relationships at CBC as nearly
 4     all of Hugh's former colleagues had left or retired. 
 5     So when we began that, we found CBC to be very
 6     receptive to meeting new producers and maybe our timing
 7     was just very good, I don't know.
 8  156                  And I suppose a little bit of this is
 9     going to sound very similar to what Phil Savath was
10     saying in that most of our experience has been a good
11     one in working with CBC.
12  157                  We have had the opportunity to
13     produce many programs for CBC in that five years. 
14     These include several episodes of the life and times
15     series and that included programs on people like Rick
16     Hansen, Emily Carr, Lynn Johnson, Terry Fox and
17     Christine Silverburg.  And we are now in production on
18     the life and times of Phil and Tony Espesito.
19  158                  And, you know, certainly we believe
20     that this type of series is exactly what CBC should be
21     doing.  These are the role models that other people
22     have been speaking about this morning that Canadians
23     should be seeing and our children should be seeing and
24     those programs do go into schools and are seen in
25     schools and I think that is very important.


 1  159                  Some of the other documentaries that
 2     we have produced, last year we completed "Grizzlies of
 3     the Canadian Rockies" and we are currently on
 4     production on a program called "Sharks of the Golden
 5     Triangle".
 6  160                  Those programs again similar to what,
 7     if you will, was saying, those are being also shown by
 8     Discovery Channel in the U.S. there is a big
 9     broadcaster and obviously they feel that it is programs
10     that have value to their audience as well and we have
11     also sold in Europe and other places.
12  161                  So I think this is good programming
13     and but they do not happen if CBC does not participate. 
14     We also have a children's series in development called
15     "Fish and Chips" which is something that we are working
16     on here with the Vancouver Aquarium.  And regionally,
17     we produced a couple of years ago, a half-hour
18     documentary called "Heart of the City" here for CBC
19     Vancouver and we also have another program in
20     development called a "A Moment in Time".
21  162                  CBC's support over these years has
22     helped force four grow as an independent television
23     production company, we now have 15 full-time employees
24     and I guess, you know, it is also important to say that
25     our work has meant payment to freelance, technical,


 1     creative talent and performers that well exceed more
 2     than $1 million annually.
 3  163                  There has been a lot of discussion
 4     about the cut backs and that sort of thing at CBC and
 5     while CBC's in-house production has declined, this has
 6     also resulted in opportunities for producers such as
 7     ourselves and I think it is important to say that CBC
 8     are now partners with more and more of these
 9     independent producers and more and more in the regions.
10  164                  We see this partnership as beneficial
11     and a very cost effective way to produce Canadian
12     programming.
13  165                  In summation, our experience with CBC
14     has been positive.  We see the executive producer and
15     producers of life and times series frequently coming to
16     Vancouver to screen rough cuts not only of our programs
17     but over here in Vancouver.
18  166                  Secondly, we have begun focusing our
19     marketing efforts outside of Canada in developing those
20     relationships with people like Discovery Channel in the
21     U.S. and we have also been able to build a strong
22     relationship with CBC international sales and they have
23     been extremely proactive in helping us market our
24     programs internationally and I think this is just a
25     very important point for business we have to be looking


 1     outside of Canada to produce these programs.  And while
 2     all of this is positive, there are there are, of
 3     course, some changes we would like to see at CBC.
 4  167                  MR. BEARD:  I guess for the CBC that
 5     I knew and worked at, the regional broadcasting was the
 6     impetus for new ideas and for drama development.  I
 7     think people might be surprised to know that the CBC
 8     series originally "The Beachcombers" originally was
 9     intended as a training ground for new directors and
10     writers and we were also doing a lot of one-hour dramas
11     at that time and longer form specials and so this
12     little Beachcomber series was going to be a good place
13     to train technicians and writers and directors.  And,
14     of course, it gained a life of its own and somehow, as
15     it gained a life of its own, the other dramas seemed to
16     fall away and we were only left with really
17     Beachcombers for a long, long time.
18  168                  I think the kind of legacy of a
19     program like Beachcombers that grew in the regions and
20     developed in the region of the CBC has had a profound
21     effect on the whole industry and the healthy drama
22     industry that we do see in Canada and the television
23     service industry and the feature film service industry,
24     the technicians and designers and program people have
25     their, I guess cut their teeth on "The Beachcombers"


 1     and "The Beachcombers" was responsible for really the
 2     start of a very important industry here in British
 3     Columbia and probably influenced other areas as well.
 4  169                  I think that one of my concerns for
 5     the CBC and I have always been a fan of the CBC for a
 6     long, long time and I have cared about it very much
 7     particularly when I worked for it, I think that my fear
 8     always has been that CBC will become entrenched in
 9     Toronto and that as the cuts and cut backs force them
10     to become more efficient, that the effort will be to
11     say, well, let us produce totally out of Toronto.
12  170                  I know that they are bringing dramas
13     here, and I applaud that and I think that is wonderful. 
14     But I think that CBC is missing a great opportunity.  I
15     think that opportunity, if we look at the history of
16     CBC and you look at the history of television drama
17     development that grew out of regional programming and
18     it grew out of regional programming because the budgets
19     were small, there was not a lot to risk, people could
20     afford to take chances.  CBC had in-house internal
21     directors that had experience that they would take
22     young directors and mentor them and develop them and I
23     think that that opportunity is, in fact, probably
24     diminishing and I would really urge the CBC to rethink
25     its regional programming and not to cut away air time.


 1     I think that it is not just a case of money, I think it
 2     is really a case of having the air time to put programs
 3     on the air and really it is giving people an
 4     opportunity to occasionally fail if that is the case
 5     because it is really only when you can take risks and
 6     afford to take risks that original ideas can kind of
 7     flourish.
 8  171                  So I think that, to me, I think that
 9     the opportunities for the CBC are great.  I think that
10     the opportunity to try and strengthen regional
11     broadcasting and that is not just in Vancouver but I
12     think all across the country, I think it is an
13     opportunity that could go a long ways to developing
14     better programming for Canada, better programming that
15     will be seen internationally.
16  172                  Thank you.
17  173                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
18     you very much, to both of you, thank you.
19  174                  MS PINSKY:  Mr. Arthur Hughes.
20  175                  MR. HUGHES:  Bonjour, madam.
21  176                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
22     Bonjour.
24  177                  MR. HUGHES:  And ladies and
25     gentlemen.  My name is Arthur Hughes and I am here


 1     simply as an average citizen to give some subjective
 2     observations on the CBC.  I was born in the same era
 3     that the Canadian radio broadcasting commission was
 4     born by R.B. Bennett and I think I have been a listener
 5     ever since.  So I think after 60 or 70 years I think
 6     you could call me a loyal listener.
 7  178                  And I would like to explain why I
 8     listen regularly to the CBC.  Two reasons essentially. 
 9     Number one, CBC radio is obviously an extremely
10     intelligent, responsible and very entertaining and
11     eclectic programming.  One intervenor mentioned that he
12     did not listen to all the programs, how could you?  CBC
13     is trying to address the entire citizenry in Canada and
14     I have heard it said and I am sure it is true that if
15     you could listen to the CBC radio regularly it is
16     equivalent to a university education.  And as a
17     consequence, I think I have probably wasted six years
18     of my life and a lot of money going to university.
19  179                  Now, the second reason I listen to
20     CBC regularly is the simple fact that there are no
21     commercials.  I occasionally do listen to commercial
22     radio and the inane, repetitive and literally lowest
23     common denominator commercials destroy any enjoyment of
24     their programming.
25  180                  So I think for those two reasons, it


 1     is truly an extremely valuable service to the Canadian
 2     public.  Now, I would like, if I may, to give some
 3     examples of actual programming.  No one has done this
 4     so far.  I have four examples although there are many.
 5  181                  In Vancouver, there is the, as there
 6     is across Canada, local morning and afternoon radio
 7     programs.  Now, the morning program goes from 6 to 9,
 8     the afternoon program from 4 to 6.  Recently the CBC
 9     brought west a sports announcer from Toronto, Rick
10     Clough.  And as far as I am concerned he is one of the
11     most expert, interesting and of course he has a lot of
12     help behind the scenes interviewers.  I would say that
13     if you had a chance and most people do not to listen
14     from 6 to 9 every day you would not have to read the
15     morning paper.  It is as simple as that.
16  182                  I will give one example of this
17     morning's programming.  He interviewed -- well actually
18     he is on spring break right now, but the interview was
19     of a sociologist from the University of Michigan who
20     just completed a study with several assistants of the
21     effect that so called scary films have on the public
22     and this was the effect it had on children, teenagers
23     and adults.  They gave examples of long-term effect,
24     they gave examples of actual films.  Now, you know,
25     this is something you would never, ever have on


 1     commercial radio.  It just would not be there and it is
 2     just one example of many that they do.
 3  183                  Another program, we all know, "As It
 4     Happens" has been running for decades, it seems.  The
 5     popularity of this program is beyond question and it
 6     goes far beyond the normal CBC listening audience.  It
 7     is broadcast in many places throughout the States on
 8     public radio.  They have a popular feature, talk-back
 9     which, of course, many other stations and programs do
10     as well and many, many times you will hear phone-ins
11     from California from Michigan, from Florida, anywhere
12     that the PBS carries this broadcast.
13  184                  It is a truly invaluable program
14     particularly although Peter Gzosky is there no longer,
15     he did the same thing, I think he tied the country east
16     and west although I dare say in Quebec there were not
17     that many French speaking listeners but Peter Gzosky,
18     as an aside, I would say he definitely deserved his
19     Order of Canada.
20  185                  Another program that is invaluable is
21     on Saturday morning called "The House".  This is a
22     public service program regarding politics or the
23     political scene in Canada with Jason Moscovitz.
24  186                  Once again, I would say this, that if
25     one were able to listen to this program weekly over the


 1     whole year or at least on the Saturdays, it is
 2     broadcast if there were a federal election that year
 3     one would not have to listen to one word from any
 4     political party nor read any editorial in any paper in
 5     order to be able to cast a sincere and honest vote for
 6     the party of your choice.  You would be able to make
 7     that choice simply by listening to this program called
 8     "The House".
 9  187                  Finally, a purely entertaining
10     program on Sunday nights is called "Sound Advice" with
11     Rick Phillips.  This is an extremely clever program in
12     that he will play the latest CDs of classical music,
13     once upon a time LPs, of course.  And he will make
14     comparisons.  And obviously it is primarily an
15     entertaining program.  It is followed by "On Stage"
16     which is similar, but it is simply rebroadcasting
17     programs from the Glenn Gould.
18  188                  Anyway, those are four programs and
19     there are many others that are extremely valuable. 
20     There are programs that one gentleman said he does not
21     listen to, neither do I, because they do not appeal to
22     me, but I can be -- one can be damn sure that they
23     appeal to a lot of other Canadians and that is why they
24     are broadcast.
25  189                  Now, as for television, two


 1     intervenors have already stated that one of the great
 2     values of radio is you can be doing other things.  For
 3     a family with children, for example, they can be
 4     listening to the radio, maybe with just one ear, but
 5     still you can be listening whereas television you have
 6     to actually sit down and pay complete attention I
 7     should say with both eyes and ears.  So I do not watch
 8     television all that much.
 9  190                  Now, when it does come to television,
10     I watch the CBC primarily, but I do watch some of the
11     other channels.  I can only get, well, 28 channels on
12     my particular set up, but one cannot watch 28 channels,
13     so I watch about three or four.  And I certainly do
14     watch the public television from the U.S.A.
15  191                  Now, one major criticism of
16     television is that the national news which they
17     continue to call "The National", which is curious,
18     being an adjective, but anyway, they moved it from 10
19     to 9, they knew that the general public was going to
20     have difficulty watching it and they refused to return
21     it to the ten o'clock time slot for quite some time but
22     finally they knuckled under and did that.  And now they
23     are showing the ten o'clock news repeated at 11, God
24     knows why.  I wrote them a letter got an inconclusive
25     response.  I suppose it does save a lot of money, they


 1     can just repeat an hour's programming.
 2  192                  But at 11 o'clock, here in Vancouver,
 3     we used to see the local news and now the local news is
 4     at 11:30, meaning you have to stay up an extra
 5     half-hour.  That is mind-boggling to me.  At 11
 6     o'clock, I switch to VTV which has very good local
 7     news, broadcast much better than the usual stations
 8     which the local news is what is happening in your
 9     apartment building, the national news is what is
10     happening on the street outside and the international
11     news is, you know, what is happening in Burnaby.
12  193                  The VTV does a wonderful job with
13     their local news.  I can't particularly pick out any
14     superb programs on television.  I will mention "The
15     Nature of Things."
16  194                  Now... En passant, je voudrais dire
17     que j'écoute le CBF FM afin d'améliorer le français, et
18     aussi le CBOFT.
19  195                  Et si vous me permettez, je voudrais
20     dire à ma collègue, à gauche... à ma gauche, à dire
21     l'expression canadienne française, c'est assez
22     maintenant.  Maintenant c'est... l'expression plus
23     exacte est québécois, ou bien, le Québec...  et
24     québécoise.
25  196                  Anyway, if maybe I could just wrap it


 1     up by saying that if the CBC ever went under my stereo
 2     set is plugged into cable.  So I am able to get all the
 3     stations south of here and I do listen on occasion to
 4     KOW which is the University of Washington, KPLU which
 5     is the University of Pacific Lutheran and KPLM which is
 6     a commercial station.
 7  197                  I know that if the CBC ever went
 8     under, CBC radio, that I would go under, too.  I would
 9     not be listening to any Canadian station I would be
10     tuning in those three.
11  198                  Merci, Madame.
12  199                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
13     Merci, monsieur Hughes.
14  200                  And I see that you certainly deserve
15     three Ph.D.s for all the radio listening and loyalty
16     you have been delivering to the CBC and you are a very
17     active listener by coming this morning.  Thank you very
18     much for your intervention.
19  201                  I would propose that we take a coffee
20     break for -- coffee break for ten minutes.
21     --- Recess at 1025 / Suspension à 1025
22     --- Upon resuming at 1050 / Reprise à 1050
23  202                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  We
24     will proceed and I would ask Ms Pinsky to call the next
25     intervenor.


 1  203                  MS PINSKY:  The next intervenor is Ms
 2     Audrey Johnson.
 4  204                  MR. JOHNSON:  Hi.  Thank you.  My
 5     name is Audrey Johnson.  I am not here on behalf of any
 6     organization, I am just representing myself.  I just
 7     want to start by saying yesterday I heard on CBC that
 8     they were concerned that their audiences, the majority
 9     of their audience is over 50 years old and so they
10     wanted to make younger programming to attract younger
11     viewers and listeners.
12  205                  I started listening to the CBC radio
13     when I was in my early 20s quite by accident.  I was in
14     my last few years of university and could no longer
15     afford cable television, being a starving student, and
16     the radio that I did have could only receive two
17     stations clearly.  One of them was the CBC.  And I
18     started listening to CBC radio and that was first time
19     I tuned into "As It Happens" and from then on I was
20     hooked.
21  206                  So I think the CBC is still very
22     relevant to young people and I hope that in their
23     efforts to attract younger viewers that that does not
24     mean that they are going to make it more American.
25  207                  I prepared some words last night and


 1     it comes from a very visceral place, I think.
 2  208                  I worked briefly for CBC Newsworld a
 3     few years after I graduated from university and I got
 4     sort of an inside look at work at the CBC because we
 5     worked very closely with the local stations.  And I --
 6     so while I have that background, my words are purely
 7     from an emotional place.
 8  209                  My family emigrated to Canada from
 9     the Caribbean when I was six years old and I went
10     through the entire school from grade 1 to university. 
11     But it was not until I started listening to the CBC
12     that I really started to understand this vast country
13     that my parents brought me to.  And it was not until
14     then that I really started to appreciate what it is to
15     be a Canadian.
16  210                  The CBC is not just an information or
17     entertainment source.  For me, it is an integral part
18     of Canada's identity and, therefore, it is part an
19     integral part of my identity as a Canadian person. 
20     That is not to say that the CBC is perfect.  Certainly,
21     its cultural programming could be much more diverse and
22     there should be more of it.  And I think CBC television
23     is suffering from a bit of an identity crisis.  As a
24     public broadcaster it is trying to be more American, I
25     think it is being forced into that place because of cut


 1     backs but also because I think the powers that be think
 2     that that is what Canadians want to watch.  But it is
 3     not what I want to watch.
 4  211                  I think there are enough stations
 5     that show us life in America.  I turn to the CBC to
 6     show me life in Canada.  But despite its short comings,
 7     I think CBC at least makes the effort to tell our
 8     stories and it does so with continually diminishing
 9     resources.
10  212                  That is the other point I wanted to
11     discuss as a taxpayer, I do not mind giving money to
12     support the CBC.  I think I would be willing to pay
13     more taxes if that meant continuing and improving what
14     I consider to be a very important Canadian media
15     source.  It saddens and angers me when I hear critics
16     say that the only way to save the CBC is to privatize
17     it.  It angers me because I know that those critics are
18     only motivated by profit.
19  213                  The CBC is the only station that I
20     hear coverage on the recent elections for the new
21     territory of Nunavut.  It is the only place that I have
22     heard about the personal stories of the fishing
23     communities in the Maritimes or of Canadians living in
24     remote communities across this country.
25  214                  As a former athlete, the CBC is one


 1     of the places I have always turned to for coverage of
 2     amateur sports and I think they do that very well.
 3  215                  And I do not need to mention, I think
 4     it has already been mentioned, the influence that the
 5     CBC has played in the careers of artists and writers
 6     and musicians across Canada.
 7  216                  A private broadcaster could not do
 8     what the CBC does because they would not be able to
 9     afford it.  For them the bottom line is the most
10     important.  But the CBC is more than about the bottom
11     line, it is about helping to create our country.  If
12     you allow the CBC to be privatized, I think you might
13     as well privatize the Canadian flag because for me that
14     is what the CBC is, it is our flag, it is us and it
15     tells us and it tells the world who and what we are. 
16     Canada needs the CBC and I want the CBC to continue to
17     be a very unique part of my Canadian experience.
18  217                  Thank you.
19  218                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
20     you very much, Ms Johnson, thank you.
21  219                  MS PINSKY:  The next presenter is Mr.
22     David Sinclair.
24  220                  MR. SINCLAIR:  Good morning, Madam
25     Chair, madam secretary.


 1  221                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Good
 2     morning.
 3  222                  MR. SINCLAIR:  Ladies and gentlemen
 4     and to the officials of the CBC and federal government
 5     politicians who might be listening now or at a later
 6     time.
 7  223                  I am pleased to speak to you this
 8     morning and I am also pleased to begin my presentation
 9     by saying that my earliest memory or one of the
10     earliest memories of my life is recalling a federal
11     government representative coming to my parents' home in
12     Vancouver to collect the CBC radio licence fee in the
13     early 1940s.
14  224                  I have found the CBC radio and
15     television to be educational, informative and
16     interesting and its journalists are not afraid to
17     tackle the problems of the real world, the real social
18     world and the Canadian social world however unpleasant
19     and distasteful these might be.
20  225                  I am very disappointed in the cut
21     backs that the federal government has imposed on the
22     CBC over the years.  I appeal to the federal government
23     and the CBC officials and the CRTC collectively
24     speaking together to be as forceful as possible to the
25     federal government in efforts to reinstate more funding


 1     to the CBC for the benefit of all Canadians.
 2  226                  I mentioned a radio licence fee.  I
 3     expect that this has been discussed and if this was to
 4     be considered for the future and put forward, I would
 5     be willing to pay a reasonable licence fee.
 6  227                  As we all know, England has had this
 7     radio and licence television fee for many years,
 8     continuing to the present.
 9  228                  Over the years I have participated in
10     the programs of the CBC by phoning in to programs such
11     as "Cross-Country Checkup".  I appreciate the
12     educational value of CBC Radio One as it is now known
13     and the music and more of CBC Radio Two and I
14     particularly enjoy "Say It With Music".
15  229                  I now wish to briefly turn to the
16     technical aspects of radio and television in relation
17     to the CBC.  I wish to thank the CBC for the stereo
18     signal on CBUT channel 2.  Concerning the television
19     transmitters of the CBC, I am wondering as to whether
20     or not the existing full power transmitters or the
21     transmitting that are almost at full power still need
22     to be full power even though digital and high
23     definition broadcasting are coming.
24  230                  I am also pleased to see that the CBC
25     Radio One has established a separate identity in


 1     Victoria on the FM band.  Concerning the UH trans --
 2     the UHF transmitters, particularly for the CBC French
 3     television, I am wondering if the CBC has conducted any
 4     tests to determine as to how many people actually watch
 5     CBC French television by way of the UHF transmitters
 6     such as in this area channel 26 and in Calgary channel
 7     16, for example.
 8  231                  The competition for CBC television is
 9     not limited to what is available on Rogers Cable,
10     Canadian satellites and American satellites.  It is not
11     generally known that there are up to eight UHF
12     television stations in Seattle and one in Bellingham
13     that are not on Rogers Cable and two more are coming
14     soon in the Seattle area.
15  232                  Most of these can be received with
16     varying signal strength at different times of the year. 
17     I plan to be here for most of the hearings today as I
18     am interested in the comments and opinions of my fellow
19     citizens.
20  233                  Madam Chair, this concludes my
21     intervention.
22  234                  Thank you.
23  235                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
24     you very much.  And you are more than welcome to spend
25     the day with us, thank you.


 1  236                  MS PINSKY:  The next presenter is Ms
 2     Shirley Campbell.
 4  237                  MS CAMPBELL:  Thank you.  I am from
 5     Squamish which is a small town outside of Vancouver and
 6     I drove in today to give this presentation.  I feel a
 7     little bit like a country bumpkin and, of course, my
 8     name was not on the list and I did phone in and make an
 9     appointment, so thank you for hearing me.  I truly am a
10     country bumpkin in that I was born and brought up in
11     the interior and northern B.C.  So CBC was my cultural
12     and national lifeline.  And it still is.
13  238                  When I was a teenager in the '60s, I
14     lived in a little town called McBride, B.C., it is in
15     the Robson Valley, Rocky Mountain trench.  And we got
16     CBC and that is all.  It was A.M. and I as a teenager
17     heard the Beetles for the first time on "Temple for
18     Teens" from 4 to 4:30 with Bob Switzer.  That was the
19     only rock and roll we got except later on at night if
20     we were driving around in cars we could get American
21     stations.
22  239                  Later, we never had TV and later in
23     the end of the '60s, TV station came in and before that
24     an American researcher came in and researched us and
25     our children on the playgrounds because we were the


 1     last people in North America that had not -- had no
 2     access to TV.  They found that we were less violent on
 3     the playground at that time than the rest of the people
 4     and since then I think we have caught up.  Because when
 5     I visited McBride this year, they have mostly
 6     satellites and they mostly get Detroit stations.  They
 7     do not get CBC.  In Squamish, I pay for my CBC radio
 8     because the transmission and I was interested in this.
 9  240                  Talking, the transmission signal is
10     so weak.  Okay.  We can get commercial AM, FM radios
11     loud and clear through the mountains, we cannot get
12     CBC.  So I pay $17 a month to a cable for 52 stations
13     and the only one I want is CBC AM.  When I hear you
14     talk about the radio CBC, I don't know what you are
15     talking about.  I do not get it, and I am disturbed
16     about that.
17  241                  When we drive through -- I drove
18     through B.C. this year, I could hear CBC radio around
19     the towns.  As soon as we got out of town, I was back
20     to commercial radio and then back into it.
21  242                  So I feel that, again, you are our
22     lifeline and we are not getting it.  So it is a case of
23     really the haves have it and the have-nos do not.  And
24     I understand that it is very expensive.  We are a
25     large, large country, but that is also our strength.


 1  243                  And I am appealing on behalf of the
 2     many northern people and isolated people that we get
 3     transmission.  I took time off from work to get here
 4     and because I feel so strongly on behalf of small
 5     communities and I was a bit disturbed that your
 6     hearings were only in the cities.  I understand that
 7     you will probably be asking for written reports or
 8     something so that some of us can express our support.
 9  244                  CBC radio provides us with a balanced
10     Canadian program that are not available in any other
11     form in a small turn to.  While we are isolated
12     physically we can visit via "Talk Back", Rex Murphy,
13     the afternoon show from all Canadians on all issues
14     from all corners of the country, whether the programme
15     is "Quirks and Quarks", "The Hum Line", or "DNTO", or
16     "The Sad Goat", or "Gardening with Brian Minter", we
17     are always entertained and challenged.
18  245                  I especially appreciate the pride in
19     speaking grammatically correctly that the announcers
20     have.  And as we all know, if they make a mistake their
21     listeners correct them quickly.  And I think that is a
22     real strong part of the CBC.
23  246                  Is the CBC doing a good job?  Yes, I
24     think so, despite cut backs and I am one, I do not mind
25     some reruns.  While I understand the difficulty in


 1     balancing a budget, I think it is very shortsighted to
 2     think that the CBC is a financial black hole.
 3  247                  To improve our service and our appeal
 4     to Canadians we must hire more journalists, artists,
 5     technicians, writers, announcers, et cetera.
 6  248                  I believe that it is also a great
 7     training ground for our future.  I see in the small
 8     communities where we have special grants for loggers
 9     and forestry workers because that is cutting back.  Why
10     not, instead of making up little employment jobs for
11     these people, train something that they can use
12     globally and that is to be technicians.  We could have
13     internship programs for these people and it is not a
14     waste of money.
15  249                  And while I think it will be hard for
16     the fishers and miners in the east and the loggers in
17     the west to become artists, I think their children
18     certainly could.  And we have seen many, many examples
19     of it.
20  250                  For the future of the CBC, I would
21     love to just give a couple of recommendations.  I think
22     it should be a balance of not only Canadian but also
23     national and international and I would like to see
24     programs that are not on public -- or on the commercial
25     stations.


 1  251                  I think that I agree with this woman
 2     about the young people.  I talked to many people that
 3     my kids were brought up with CBC radio, hated it and
 4     now as they got into adulthood, have gone to become
 5     listeners.
 6  252                  And I heard that over and over again.
 7     I think that we could take some queues from the BBC and
 8     I do not know much about the BBC, but they seem to have
 9     at least funded -- they have also sold much of their
10     programming and I think we could, too.
11  253                  In conclusion, I must repeat, it is
12     our cultural lifeline.  Nowhere do we hear book reviews
13     except on CBC.  When we talk with my friends we do not
14     say, "I heard it on the radio," we say "I heard it on
15     CBC."
16  254                  I appeal to you to urge everyone you
17     can to preserve this and improve it.  Thank you very
18     much.
19  255                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
20     you, Mrs. Campbell.  I am wondering, you were referring
21     to one of the radios that you did not get.  You get one
22     on the cable, but you do not get the other one.
23  256                  MS CAMPBELL:  I do not get the music
24     one.
25  257                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Oh, I


 1     see.
 2  258                  MS CAMPBELL:  What is that called,
 3     CBC two?
 4  259                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Okay.
 5     That is the one you are not receiving, okay.
 6  260                  MS CAMPBELL:  And we get the AM, we
 7     get the FM, and, as I say, we pay for it.
 8  261                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
 9     Through cable.
10  262                  MS CAMPBELL:  Yes.
11  263                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
12     you very much for taking the time off your work and to
13     come in and meet with us.  For your information and for
14     your friends and people who are here today, too, let me
15     give you the dates by which written comments will be
16     received.
17  264                  First will be gazetting the
18     applications of the CBC for every licence as of the
19     27th of March which means that, by then, the
20     interventions can be sent and the deadline is the 30th
21     of April.
22  265                  And, as legal counsel was kind of
23     mentioning this morning, it is important when you do
24     file a comment that you refer to the letters and which
25     licence it refers to.  Because it is not a global


 1     renewal we are doing, although we are hearing
 2     everything together, it will be licence by licence.
 3  266                  So if you want to talk about the ones
 4     that you receive and if you, you know, you have to
 5     address it by its call letters.  And the hearing itself
 6     will be in Hull from the 25th of May to the 11th of
 7     June.
 8  267                  Thank you very much.  And you can be
 9     assured that everything that is heard through that
10     consultation is on the public record.  There will be a
11     transcript that will be transmitted and be part of the
12     public hearing.  Thank you.
13  268                  MS PINSKY:  And also just in terms of
14     the written interventions, the addresses can be found
15     on our website and also when the public notice is
16     issued to announce the proceeding related to the
17     application you will hear of that through newspapers
18     and other forms of notice but, as well, you can find
19     that on our web website.  That is the addresses where
20     you want to file the written intervention.
21  269                  I would ask next that the three next
22     presenters please join us at the table.  And they are
23     Mr. Gordon Elliot, Patty McLeod, and John Juliani.  And
24     Mr. Gordon Elliot is the next presenter.
25  270                  You may begin your presentation if


 1     you wish.
 3  271                  MR. ELLIOT:  I did not expect to be
 4     speaking here today, because I was told that I was too
 5     late.
 6  272                  When I arrived this morning, I found
 7     that I might be able to say a word, I borrowed a pen
 8     and a piece of paper, made a few notes.  My name is
 9     Gordon Elliot.  I taught at UBC, I taught at Simon
10     Fraser University, retired from there, I taught in the
11     meantime at the University of Victoria and at the
12     University of Prince Edward Island.
13  273                  I taught Canadian history, Canadian
14     literature.  And I think, I gather from students who
15     have told me, I turned them into Canadians.  I could
16     not have turned them into Canadians without the CBC.
17  274                  I grew up in a small town.  In 1936,
18     I think it was, CBC came along and it was my life line
19     to elsewhere.  And elsewhere was the whole world.  What
20     I am afraid of, with these cuts, cuts, cuts to the CBC
21     is that we are being restricted to almost no outside
22     world at all.
23  275                  Now, not only the outside world, but
24     I learned first about Newfoundland.  I now go to
25     Newfoundland often, fairly often.  I learned about the


 1     Prairies, about the Yukon, off the CBC.  We had no
 2     public library in Williams Lake in the 1930s and the
 3     1920s.
 4  276                  In fact, I went back there to teach
 5     for a couple of months -- the only job I was never
 6     asked back to -- and there was no library there then
 7     and that was in the 1950s.  The CBC is the lifeline of
 8     this country.  And as it is cut back, we might as well
 9     cut the umbilical cord and start all over again as a
10     colony, a political colony, rather than just an
11     economic colony of the United States.
12  277                  Now, I spent four years in the
13     services.  I taught for many years and I was -- I went
14     to university because I wanted to know what that where
15     was about.  I did not know, I was just a young fellow
16     and I was drafted, I went.
17  278                  When I came out of the university,
18     after studying Canadian history, and writing a thesis
19     on Quebec and the Quebec people, I had a whole new view
20     of this world.
21  279                  Now, when I went to university, I did
22     not expect to pass, even.  I had been a lousy student
23     in grade 12 -- I would be ashamed to show you the
24     transcript of my graduation.  But what I found was,
25     while I was at university, I became interested in what


 1     Canada is and what a Canadian is.
 2  280                  Now, over all these years, I was
 3     backed in my studies, my thinking by the CBC.  Radio
 4     that is.  I still do not have a TV set.  I am a reader
 5     and, therefore, I cannot let that TV world, that
 6     mechanical world interfere with my reading.
 7  281                  All across this country, after the
 8     collapse, not the collapse, but the change in usage of
 9     railways, that was a life line across this country, CPR
10     and the railway.  After they diminished and with air
11     travel, we never see this country, we never hear of it. 
12     We go from here to Toronto or from here to Newfoundland
13     or to somewhere else or from here to Newfoundland, I
14     will save the adjective.
15  282                  Radio, then, is all we have now,
16     especially in the face of Quebec separation or anything
17     else, we only have the radio that hooks this place
18     together.
19  283                  Now, I have been introduced in those
20     places.  When I was in the services, I saw a bit of
21     them.  But when teaching, I used the CBC.  It was
22     better than anything I could say myself.  We saw -- we
23     heard the plays, we heard programs.  I could say why
24     don't you listen to this tomorrow.  It was a back up,
25     it was a back up for me.


 1  284                  Now then, the students, I do not
 2     think I pushed, I tried not to be emotional about it,
 3     but the students in my classes started thinking of
 4     themselves as Canadians.
 5  285                  Too many of them were considering
 6     themselves, oh, I am English, my parents were English,
 7     my grandparents were English.  I cannot do that.  The
 8     only country I have in this world is this one.  My
 9     mother's people on my mother's side have been here 250
10     years and my father's people 200 years.
11  286                  I cannot say look, my granny is
12     something, could I become an Englishman or something
13     like this, I have this country and I am losing faith in
14     this country.  And the more I see the cuts to the CBC,
15     the more my faith is underlined.
16  287                  Now, as I see this country on the
17     verge of political collapse, we look with a kind of
18     horror with what is happening in Spain or Yugoslavia
19     but we are causing separation in this country by a
20     constant undermining of ourselves.
21  288                  Now, what I would like to say, if I
22     have not already said it, this major link from coast to
23     coast and from Canadian to Canadian whether it is a
24     Canadian with a Chinese background, Korean background,
25     east Indian background, Yugoslav, Iranians.  Around my


 1     area of town there are Iranians, they are fine people,
 2     they do not know what they are and they will not know
 3     without the CBC.
 4  289                  So what I am asking this committee to
 5     do is do not destroy that major link we have from coast
 6     to coast, from sea to sea.  Canada from sea to sea
 7     without that link is not going to be Canada from sea to
 8     sea, it will be Canada into 12 separate little colonies
 9     of someone.
10  290                  So what I would like to say is that
11     you recommend that not to weaken the CBC, but to
12     strengthen it, to hype it, push it.  We do not see
13     enough of this.  Or I do not see very much in our local
14     newspapers.  I would like possibly that they would like
15     to see it go.
16  291                  Hype the thing, push it.  Repair it.
17     It has to be repaired.  Bolster it.  Reinvent it so
18     that it becomes a part of my country and the country to
19     which I belong and to which I am gradually losing faith
20     because we will invest in anything, any place else but
21     the creation of our own world.  Thank you very much.
22  292                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
23     you very much, Professor Elliot.  It is -- thank you
24     for your participation and I apologize if there was a
25     confusion of messages.


 1  293                  MR. ELLIOT:  I beg your pardon?
 2  294                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  I
 3     apologize if there was confusion of messages to the
 4     fact that you were too late to intervene.  We are happy
 5     that you came forward and took the time to talk to us.
 6  295                  MR. ELLIOT:  Thank you.
 7  296                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
 8     you.
 9  297                  MS PINSKY:  Mr. John Juliani is the
10     next presenter.
12  298                  MR. JULIANI:  Thank you.  I, too, was
13     under the impression that I would not be appearing
14     today, so I do not have a written statement.
15  299                  I am here representing 3,000
16     performers in radio and television in British Columbia. 
17     And I guess I am here in a past incarnation as someone
18     who was executive producer of radio drama here in
19     British Columbia for the network, for 15 years, and I
20     suppose I am also here in my capacity in another life
21     as the president of the Directors' Guild of Canada for
22     several years.  What I have to say about the CBC is
23     that we are all going through the pains of its present
24     situation.  I think for the performers that I
25     represent, many of them had their beginnings on CBC


 1     radio and television.
 2  300                  Speaking of television, in the early
 3     days of "The Beachcombers", that was -- that became
 4     very quickly a relic of our heritage and I use the word
 5     "relic" advisedly because we recently lost Robert
 6     Clothier.
 7  301                  I think many performers in this
 8     country and in this part of the world certainly got
 9     their beginnings on CBC radio and television and I can
10     speak from personal experience that their input here in
11     British Columbia was something that was valuable and
12     seminal.
13  302                  My own personal experience at CBC
14     radio was that we moved from a situation where we were
15     decentralized to a situation where we have become again
16     centralized.
17  303                  I think the most egregious blunder
18     that was made by CBC leadership -- I use the word
19     advisedly -- in the last few years was that the most
20     recent spate of cuts were used as an excuse to circle
21     the wagons and to bring everything back to Toronto.
22  304                  I think that has had a very
23     unfortunate result, certainly on radio in this part of
24     the world in terms of the output in drama and other --
25     and documentaries coming out of this region.  Vancouver


 1     has long been a centre in those areas.
 2  305                  As far as television is concerned,
 3     ironically television is now doing what radio did in
 4     all its existence and I am very, very happy to see what
 5     is happening with things like Davinci and so forth
 6     coming out of Vancouver.  But I don't know how we are
 7     going to keep television going and keep the regional
 8     programs going unless we get some kind of rethinking of
 9     this whole concept of work coming from areas of this
10     country outside of Toronto and being funded properly.
11  306                  So that is the -- that is my big
12     condemnation, I think, of the CBC.  My genuine gut
13     feeling, of course, is still one of praise and it has
14     been said here and it has been said in the other room
15     here this morning that it is a life line, all these
16     things are motherhood, will we preserve it, will we
17     continue to preserve this vital link or will it go the
18     way of the railways, both of which as Professor Elliot
19     has said, have been a link in this country.  So I hope,
20     of course, that we can keep it going.
21  307                  As far as the present strike is
22     concerned, because it seems to me and I admittedly have
23     been away from it for two years since I resigned from
24     the CBC because of the conditions there had changed
25     from the way they were when I first went there, I am


 1     concerned that there seems to be a desire on the part
 2     of management to get rid of those technicians one way
 3     or the other and to join arms and go into the
 4     multiskilled universe of the future.  That may be a
 5     wrong impression.
 6  308                  If you want to change your ways at
 7     this technical level then by all means change the
 8     philosophy, but treat the technicians and treat these
 9     people properly.  Get the money give them the severance
10     packages and change and announce that you are changing
11     and it is time to change.  I do not feel that that is
12     being done and I feel that there is kind of an agenda
13     there to lose these people.  So I react with dismay to
14     that.
15  309                  I will stop by saying that the
16     traditional separation between radio and television,
17     television has, for some time now, been riding
18     financially on the coattails of radio.  But I don't
19     want to get into a situation where one is saying that
20     one should be supported over the other.  I feel radio
21     from the very beginning knew what its mandate was,
22     television knew what its mandate was at the beginning
23     but never did it and only now recently meaning the last
24     five, six, seven years and ironically it is being beset
25     by such cuts that it may never be able to complete its


 1     mandate.
 2  310                  I am encouraged by what is happening
 3     in Vancouver lately and other parts of the country as
 4     far as TV is concerned.  I hope that there continue.  I
 5     thank you for your indulgence.  I am sorry I did not
 6     prepare something written, but I was not told I would
 7     be presenting anything.
 8  311                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
 9     you very much, Mr. Juliani.  And you will understand
10     that we will make no comments especially on elements
11     concerning the strike, which is a matter concerning the
12     union and CBC, and it is not a matter concerning the
13     Commission.  Thank you.
14  312                  MS PINSKY:  Thank you.  The next
15     presenter is Patty McLeod.
17  313                  MS McLEOD:  Thank you very much for
18     hearing me, Madam Chair.  I too, registered to speak
19     but did not receive any acknowledgement of that and I
20     am really very happy that you have been able to fit me
21     in.
22  314                  I come before you today as the
23     co-chair of the Vancouver Music Alliance and the
24     general manager of the Vancouver Cantata Singers who
25     have benefited for many years from what the CBC does.


 1  315                  I am also coming to you as a private
 2     person who has listened to and watched CBC radio and TV
 3     for more than 30 years.  I was not going to say this,
 4     but Mr. Juliani has brought it back to me:  I come out
 5     of radio.  I was an announcer-producer for the South
 6     African Broadcasting Corporation before I came to
 7     Canada and became a music manager and I revel in the
 8     relative freedom that I have found CBC radio to operate
 9     under.  I hope that is a correct analysis.
10  316                  Coming from South African radio in
11     the days prior to independence, it is quite marvelous
12     to see what happens on the CBC.  And because my
13     experience in music management has led me more closely
14     to connections with radio than TV, I will speak more
15     seriously and with more authority on the radio, on CBC
16     radio.
17  317                  And I have to tell you that the
18     special role played by the CBC in presenting Canadian
19     programming is of the utmost importance.  I cannot
20     emphasize that enough.
21  318                  If we were to have a broadcast on
22     radio of a performance of Handel and Mozart at the Chan
23     with five international Canadian soloists, it is not
24     going to happen.  And I am very sad about this, but
25     this business of programming is a role that radio has


 1     fulfilled despite the crippling cut backs which, you
 2     know, I think have made it very difficult for the
 3     people in radio to work to their full capacity.  They
 4     are overworked and that is maybe one of the reasons
 5     they are walking the streets now.
 6  319                  But if many of our performing
 7     companies, as we do, have nation-wide reputations and
 8     if the work of Canadian composers, workers and writers
 9     is celebrated across the country with increasing
10     frequency it is because the CBC national network has
11     made them known to all of us.  There is an absolute
12     explosion in writing in Canada and the reason -- one of
13     the reasons for that I think is because of its exposure
14     on Canadian radio.
15  320                  I think -- I just do not know of any
16     other broadcast medium in our country which devotes as
17     much time and attention to the development
18     encouragement and promulgation of what is distinctive
19     about the Canadian cultural voice than does CBC radio.
20  321                  In this province, in British Columbia
21     and I have got some interesting statistics here, but I
22     will not bother you with them, the federal per capita
23     support for culture is really quite dismal and the
24     provincial per capita support is exactly the same,
25     maybe even a little worse.


 1  322                  The CBC has celebrated our work.  It
 2     has introduced us all over the country and helped keep
 3     us in touch with what is happening in other parts of
 4     the country.  You know, new music, for example, we do
 5     quite a bit of commissioning, has a very rocky road to
 6     travel and one of the ways that composers' works get
 7     heard more than once is because the CBC is broadcasting
 8     them.
 9  323                  I don't know what it is, I cannot
10     think of any other such force present alive and well in
11     Canada, and at the moment it is barely alive and well. 
12     The programming provided by the CBC should be
13     different, yes, it should from what is provided by
14     other broadcasters, of course it should.  This is
15     radio's outstanding achievement.
16  324                  Until some years ago I think TV could
17     have said the same thing and I am glad that some people
18     think that it seems to be coming back to where it was
19     before.  It would be sad, though, if further decreases
20     in funding and ventures in being all things to all
21     people stripped CBC radio of its unique and important
22     role in celebrating Canada.
23  325                  You know, anyone who has travelled
24     and tuned in, in other countries, the States, for
25     example, fruitlessly looking for some distinctive voice


 1     of that particular place on radio can only marvel what
 2     we have, it is treasure.  Please, support it, nurture
 3     it, keep it going.  Thank you.
 4  326                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
 5     you, Mrs. McLeod.  And I am pleased, like Mr. Juliani
 6     and Ms Campbell, you came forward even if you thought
 7     that you could not participate.  It was worthwhile,
 8     thank you.
 9  327                  MS PINSKY:  Mr. J. Hamburger is the
10     next presenter.
12  328                  MR. HAMBURGER:  Hello.  Yeah, I
13     thought I would have a prepared speech, but I guess --
14  329                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  It is
15     meant to be informal.
16  330                  MR. HAMBURGER:  Yeah, that is more.
17  331                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  There
18     is no problem there.
19  332                  MR. HAMBURGER:  That is more of what
20     I was sort of hoping.
21  333                  I guess my feelings are that I would
22     hope, of course, just to reiterate a number of points
23     that the woman just ahead of me said that what a great
24     treasure the CBC is.  I think it means a lot to many,
25     many people here in Canada.  It is really a form of our


 1     personality and our character.  I am originally from
 2     the States and I am now a citizen of Canada and have
 3     over the years listened to U.S. radio.  And I can tell
 4     you whenever we go down to the U.S. and we turn on the
 5     radio down there how desperate we are, I mean really
 6     desperate.
 7  334                  I mean it is kind of -- it is a real
 8     mental, spiritual desperation to get back in touch with
 9     intelligence.
10  335                  Not rabble rousing, not radio for
11     commercial reasons, not radio to make money or radio to
12     sway you to their opinion, but radio to allow one to
13     breathe and think and be educated.  And I think that is
14     one of the great things about the CBC.
15  336                  Whether or not the funding bodies are
16     hearing compliments, I think you have to have faith in
17     what you are doing in what the CBC is doing.
18  337                  Sometimes I really -- I hope this
19     does not sound prejudiced, but I think that some of
20     best minds in Canada are actually working on the CBC. 
21     There are days when I am listening and I have to admit
22     I am a CBC addict, radio addict.  I mean, we just do
23     not have a TV, we have a small child and we do not have
24     a TV.  We do have the radio.  I truly wonder how they
25     put on such actually extraordinary programming, the


 1     intelligence and the putting together of programs, the
 2     hours that go into it.  And also, the announcers, the
 3     announcers that we have here in Vancouver, some of them
 4     are really extraordinary.  I mean, you are just
 5     wondering how do they handle so many subjects in the
 6     course of a day, let us say when you have your almanac
 7     show or your regular daily affairs show, how are they
 8     doing it?  How do they handle all these different
 9     subjects and still stay afloat?
10  338                  I myself am a theatre person.  I run
11     a tiny, tiny theatre that is desperately trying to stay
12     alive here in Vancouver.  And I must say that it does
13     take an effort to get through to the CBC but they have
14     been overall simply wonderful with interviews with us,
15     with allowing occasionally parts of our plays to be
16     broadcast.
17  339                  If you only knew how important this
18     is to cultural groups in this city to get that
19     exposure, it really is tax money going to a good
20     purposes.
21  340                  And this is the one area now I do
22     want to get into.  I am truly distressed about the cuts
23     and the funding.  I find it is a political game.  I
24     am -- it really is, I think, very upsetting and the
25     woman who spoke prior to me mentioned and she did not


 1     want to go into facts and figures but B.C. is just
 2     truly way down at the bottom of the list as to funding
 3     for the cultural groups.
 4  341                  I as a -- I have to fund raise as
 5     well know what is going on so you can imagine when we
 6     get a little bit of exposure on the CBC how important
 7     it is.  But to have the CBC going through cuts and I
 8     know the present labour stuff is rough, and you may
 9     have more people going on strike, but I think that the
10     recent case of the APEC, the reporter at APEC who was
11     coming through with information about the APEC
12     demonstrators and who now is it Terry, I forget his
13     name Milewsky who seems like he has been silenced in
14     some way.  This is very dangerous.
15  342                  And let us say a Prime Minister or
16     present government does not like the CBC because they
17     are taking an opposite view or they are promoting
18     something that, say, a political party is desperately
19     trying to get through and so you take it out on a
20     public broadcasting system to cut the funding.  I think
21     this is something that is grossly unfair and it needs
22     to be looked into.
23  343                  And there was a discussion on the CBC
24     the other morning -- I think it was Sunday morning --
25     how can the CBC be funded in some other way than under,


 1     let us say, the power of a prime minister or the power
 2     of a few people in a political party?  And I would say
 3     that this is maybe something we should look into, that
 4     a prime minister could promote someone -- I am sorry,
 5     to promote someone to the head of the CBC who they know
 6     does not really care very much.  Or they know who will
 7     slash and burn.
 8  344                  And I think if some other means, if
 9     it is possible, that the CBC could even be more
10     independent in some way not complete, I mean, but it
11     has to answer to something, but to be so under federal
12     funds like this, makes it extremely difficult and I
13     know they must be walking a very, very, very fine line
14     and I think any more cuts are just absolutely
15     horrendous for something that is really a cultural and
16     a spiritual institution for this country.  It really
17     does set this country away in a different mode, in a
18     different intelligence than what is going on south of
19     the border which is the United States which is very
20     much a free-for-all.  And even the President of the
21     United States has had to call on the radio and some TV
22     people to calm down, stop with the rabble rousing
23     because it can become violent.
24  345                  I thank you for having these open
25     sessions.  I think this is all part of the wonderful


 1     process that this country and certain institutions
 2     offer.  But, really, if you knew how important the
 3     radio is for so many millions of us and in some ways
 4     the TV, it is not a question of cutting, it is a
 5     question of getting more money in there for something
 6     that is really a wonderful breeding ground for
 7     education, for cultural institutions and for actually
 8     the growth of minds here in Canada.  Thank you.
 9  346                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
10     you very much, sir.  Thank you.
11  347                  MS PINSKY:  Those are all the
12     presenters that we have registered for this morning,
13     Madam Chair.
14  348                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  I
15     wonder, should we then go into the next step where we
16     would offer the CBC a chance to make a comment before
17     we break for lunch?  Yes.
19  349                  MS HALL:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  My
20     name is Rae Hall, and I am the regional director for
21     CBC television British Columbia.
22  350                  On behalf of my CBC colleagues who
23     are here today I would like to thank you for the
24     opportunity to take part in these proceedings today and
25     to all of the individuals here I would like to thank


 1     you for taking the time to be here.  And for those of
 2     you who spoke publicly, thank you for the care with
 3     which you prepared your comments.
 4  351                  As the public broadcaster, radio and
 5     television belongs to all of us, all Canadians.  It is
 6     important that this dialogue take place and the passion
 7     with which you illustrated your support today and
 8     pointed out those areas where we could improve, it is
 9     very heartening to hear and as I sat there listening to
10     you, I thought that as you listen and watch the CBC
11     every day, it is critical that we at the CBC have an
12     opportunity to listen to you and your stories and it
13     was a privilege to be able to do that today.
14  352                  Many of you have pointed out critical
15     decisions and choices that face CBC television and
16     radio and the reduced resources with which we have to
17     make those choices and hearing what you have to say
18     today helps inform us as we move forward.  A few of you
19     had comments to make regarding particular programmes. 
20     I would just like to remind you that CBC does have an
21     accountability process.  Both the English and French
22     service, that there is an ombudsman to whom you can
23     make any complaints known and receive a response.
24  353                  As to your presentations today, we
25     will be responding to each of you individually.  Thank


 1     you once again and I look forward to hearing more of
 2     the presentations during the CRTC's time here in
 3     Vancouver.  Thank you.
 4  354                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
 5     you very much.
 6  355                  MS PINSKY:  I just wanted to note for
 7     the record that Mr. Serge Robichaud has supplemented
 8     his presentation with a copy of an audio cassette of a
 9     June 21st, 1997 broadcast.
10  356                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Well,
11     to all of you, thank you very much for having come
12     forward and participated in our consultation.  We will
13     be conducting afternoon session at 1 o'clock and
14     tonight we will have a session at 6 o'clock as well. 
15     So thank you to all of you.
16  357                  As you have seen, also, the court
17     reporters and the translators are there which will
18     ensure that the time you have taken and the message you
19     have left with us has really a life that will really be
20     part of the public process and part of the public
21     hearing.  Thank you very much.
22     --- Recess at 1150 / Suspension à 1150
23     --- Upon resuming at 1300 / Reprise à 1300
24  358                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Bon 
25     aprés midi.  Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen and


 1     welcome to this public consultation on the CBC.
 2  359                  My name is Françoise Bertrand.  I am
 3     the CRTC's chairperson.  We are here to gather your
 4     views and comments on CBC radio and television.  In
 5     your opinion, how should the Canadian Broadcasting
 6     Corporation fulfil its role in the coming years?
 7  360                  The CBC is a national public service
 8     broadcasting in English as well as in French.  It plays
 9     an important role in the Canadian broadcasting system. 
10     Today many elements are constantly being added to the
11     broadcasting system as new technologies multiply,
12     converge, open up new horizons and increasingly offer
13     new services.  In this context we want to know what are
14     your needs and expectations as viewers and listeners of
15     the CBC.
16  361                  Given that, it is very important that
17     the commission hears what you have to say.  We must not
18     lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public
19     organization that serves Canadian citizens.  In this
20     capacity, we are responsible to you.  This is why my
21     fellow commissioners and myself find it vital to come
22     and meet with you to discuss these issues and why we
23     are holding this series of regional consultations from
24     one end of the country to the other, in 11 Canadian
25     cities, from March 9 to 18th.


 1  362                  These consultations are designed to
 2     give you a chance on the eve of a new millennium to
 3     express your opinion on the CBC's role, the programming
 4     it offers and the direction it should take at the
 5     national, regional and local levels.
 6  363                  Through these consultations, we hope
 7     to enter into an open dialogue with you and to hear
 8     your concerns.  Your comments will form part of the
 9     public record which will be added to the record of the
10     public hearing on the CBC that will begin in Hull, next
11     May 25th.
12  364                  At this upcoming hearing, the
13     Commission will examine the CBC's application for the
14     renewal of its licences, including radio, television
15     and its specialty services, "Newsworld" and "Réseau de
16     l'information".  You can also take part in that public
17     hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC.
18  365                  Now I would like to come back to
19     today's consultations.  Please allow me to introduce to
20     you the CRTC's staff person who is the legal counsel,
21     Ms Carolyn Pinsky and please feel free to call on her
22     with any questions you might have about the process
23     today or any other matter.
24  366                  So that you will all have the
25     opportunity to speak, we ask that you please limit your


 1     presentation to 10 minutes.  As these consultations are
 2     a forum designed especially for you and we want to
 3     listen to as many participants as possible, we will not
 4     ask any questions unless we need clarification.  At the
 5     end of this session, representatives from the local CBC
 6     stations will have a chance to offer their views as
 7     they are naturally very interested by the issues we are
 8     discussing here today.
 9  367                  Before we start, I would ask our
10     legal counsel, Ms Pinsky, to go over some of the
11     housekeeping matters regarding the conduct of this
12     consultation.  Thank you.
13  368                  MS PINSKY:  Thank you, Madam Chair. 
14     I just would like to explain briefly the process that
15     we will follow today.  I would ask approximately 10
16     presenters to come up and to seat themselves around the
17     table and then I will in turn call upon each presenter
18     to make his or her 10 minute presentation.
19  369                  When you begin your presentation
20     please turn on the microphone so that we can have the
21     presentation accurately transcribed and when you are
22     finished, turn it off so that we avoid feedback.  We
23     have translation services that are available today and
24     there are devices circulated along the tables and there
25     may be additional devices available at the back desk.


 1  370                  As well as those of you who are here
 2     today and who do not wish to make an oral presentation,
 3     we do have comment sheets that you may fill out at the
 4     front desk as you enter the room here.
 5  371                  Actually, as you enter the entrance
 6     way where you can fill out your comments and they will
 7     be placed on the public record.
 8  372                  So now I will call the first group of
 9     presenters, some of you are already sitting at the
10     table.  Our first presenter will be Mr. Kalle Lasn.  I
11     am sorry if I am not pronouncing it correctly.
12  373                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Good
13     afternoon.
15  374                  MR. LASN:  I want to thank you for
16     coming to Vancouver.  I am the director of the
17     not-for-profit society called the Media Foundation.  I
18     am also the publisher and the editor of a magazine
19     called "Ad Busters".  We have a worldwide circulation
20     of 50,000 and we are actually Canada's best selling
21     magazine in the United States.  We call our magazine
22     the journal of the mental environment.  Our group, the
23     media foundation is often referred to as the Greenpeace
24     of the mental environment.
25  375                  Our mission is to stop what we see as


 1     the erosion of the mental and the cultural environment
 2     today.  We believe that there is something profoundly
 3     wrong with our culture today.  One or two generations
 4     ago, you know, we the people, we told our own stories
 5     and we sang our own songs and we created the culture
 6     from the bottom up.  But lately more and more of our
 7     culture is being spoon fed to us by corporations. 
 8     There is a kind of top-down feeling of a culture to us.
 9  376                  Sometimes when I turn on my TV set I
10     feel that culture is oozing out of our TV like some
11     kind of sauna.  Many of the people who support the
12     Media Foundation, we feel that our culture has now
13     become a consumer culture and that we are no longer
14     citizens of a democracy but we are now consumers.
15  377                  And I think that part of the blame
16     for this cultural degradation, I think it rests on your
17     shoulders, on the shoulders of the CRTC.  I think that
18     over the past 40 years you have not really done your
19     job.  I think that you have had a very cosy
20     relationship with the broadcasters and your
21     relationship with the people of Canada hasn't been
22     quite as cosy.
23  378                  As far as I understand, you are
24     supposed to act in the public interest, but you have
25     allowed the public interest component of television to


 1     erode away over the last 40 years and you have allowed
 2     the commercial component to become very powerful and
 3     strong to the point where I think that television today
 4     has become like a mass merchandising tool.  It has
 5     become a marketing device that sells our society and
 6     our children on a life style of consumption.
 7  379                  But I did not come here today to
 8     lecture you on cultural degradation, I came here
 9     because this commercialization of our air waves has now
10     gone so far that Canadian citizens are being denied
11     access to their own television air waves.
12  380                  Over the past ten years, the CBC, you
13     know, Canada's public broadcaster, has repeatedly and
14     systematically refused to sell air time to our
15     organization and lots of other non-profit groups in
16     Canada.  And I would like to show you three of the
17     many, many spots that have been refused.
18     --- Video presentation / Présentation video.
19  381                  MR. LASN:  And there is one more spot
20     that I will show you now it is an announcement that we
21     try to show every year on November 27th just before the
22     Christmas shopping day begins.  It is a buy nothing day
23     announcement.
24     --- Video presentation / Présentation video.
25  382                  MR. LASN:  So, for 30 years the CBC


 1     had an advertising standards code book and on page 2 of
 2     this code book it said that controversial or
 3     contentious advertising will not be aired.  So for 30
 4     years, these kind of advocacy ads were not allowed on
 5     CBC television.
 6  383                  But then on March the 18th, 1992
 7     after we had had many public tussles with the CBC, the
 8     CBC president at that time held a press conference and
 9     announced that from now on advocacy ads will be allowed
10     on CBC television and he said:
11                            "The democratic rights of
12                            Canadians will best be served by
13                            policies promoting freedom of
14                            speech and the legitimate
15                            opportunity to be fairly heard."
16  384                  But the managers at CBC and
17     especially the managers at CBC Newsworld were not happy
18     with this new policy.  They put up various financial
19     and other barriers to people like us who want to air
20     these kind of advocacy messages and they barred us from
21     certain programs.  Eventually, the CBC Newsworld
22     refused to sell us any air time whatsoever.  Again,
23     they just said that CBC Newsworld is a news channel
24     and, therefore, advocacy ads are not allowed.
25  385                  Today at CBC and CBC Newsworld we


 1     have a situation where they will sell air time to BMW
 2     and to Volvo and to the other global auto makers but
 3     they will not sell air time to Greenpeace or the Media
 4     Foundation when we want to talk back at those globe at
 5     auto makers.  The CBC will sell air time to Clairol and
 6     to the cosmetics industry and to the fashion industry
 7     but they will not sell air time to the Media Foundation
 8     when we want to air this anorexia spot that I just
 9     showed you.
10  386                  And at Christmas time, the CBC will
11     be airing thousands of proconsumption messages urging
12     people to go out and consume, but they will not sell us
13     air time for one lousy little 30-second spot that tries
14     to announce a buy nothing day.
15  387                  I would like to read you Article XIX
16     of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which says
17     that everyone has the right to hold opinions without
18     interference and to seek, receive and impart
19     information and ideas through any media, regardless of
20     frontiers.
21  388                  And I would like to urge you to make
22     Canada one of the first countries in the world to live
23     up to Article XIX, to recognize that that every human
24     being has the right to access the public air waves. 
25     And I urge you to put the spirit of this Article XIX of


 1     the Universal Declaration of Human Rights right into
 2     the licences that you grant to the CBC and to the other
 3     commercial broadcasters.
 4  389                  If you have any questions I will be
 5     happy to answer them.
 6  390                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  No,
 7     it is quite clear.  Thank you very much for your
 8     presentation and your participation in the
 9     consultation.  Thank you.
10  391                  MR. LASN:  Thank you.
11  392                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  And
12     even your comments about the CRTC, it is all noted and
13     it is on the public record, thank you.
14  393                  MR. LASN:  Is it possible for you to
15     make some kind of a commitment to deal with this
16     problem of access and letting the people of Canada know
17     your position on this?
18  394                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Well,
19     certainly we will not make a determination in this.
20  395                  MR. LASN:  Not a determination, just
21     a commitment to look into it.
22  396                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  It is
23     in the public record and as we have said in all the
24     consultations we have conducted for the last two weeks,
25     it is part of the public hearing for the renewal of the


 1     licences.
 2  397                  So by the public record and by our
 3     presence here what we will do is when we go to the
 4     public hearing there will be an exchange and a dialogue
 5     with the CBC and all those questions that have been
 6     raised in the course of those 11 consultations will be
 7     brought to their attention.  As a matter of fact, even
 8     this afternoon there are people from the CBC here so
 9     they may even have a comment this afternoon.
10  398                  MR. LASN:  But of course what I was
11     saying was actually asking the CRTC why you have not
12     done your job in a sense and allowed Canadians freedom
13     of speech on television which is the most powerful
14     social communications medium of our time.  So I am not
15     really asking you to deal with the CBC, but I am asking
16     the CRTC whether you will look into this problem of
17     access.
18  399                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Well,
19     it is a matter that is by the Broadcasting Act which is
20     the act by which we have a responsibility definitely a
21     responsibility we have and that we feel that we are
22     carrying carefully and we take your comment that we can
23     be even more careful.  And I do not want to enter into
24     a debate on the way we carry our responsibility.
25  400                  MR. LASN:  But when a Canadian


 1     citizen cannot walk into his or her local television
 2     station, plunk some money on the table and buy some air
 3     time, then there is something very wrong with our
 4     democracy and I think you should look into it.
 5  401                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
 6     you for your comment.
 7  402                  MR. LASN:  Thank you.
 8  403                  MS PINSKY:  Ms Nancy Black is the
 9     next presenter.
11  404                  MS BLACK:  Thank you.
12  405                  I would like to commend the CRTC for
13     providing this forum to all Canadians in preparation
14     for the CBC's licence hearing.  I consider this an
15     opportunity for me to give something back to the CBC
16     for its valuable contribution to my life.  I will try
17     to express myself in the context of the questions
18     provided.  However, I do not feel I am adequately able
19     to respond to them all.
20  406                  My comments are focused primarily on
21     Radio One.  I have seldom had occasion to listen to
22     Radio Two programming.  And, as for television, while I
23     have been delighted by things I have seen on the
24     "Newsroom, "Witness", "Life and Times", "The Fifth
25     Estate" and "The Nature of Things", I am not a regular


 1     viewer of any CBC program.
 2  407                  But CBC radio has had my ear for the
 3     entire 30 years of my life.  For the first part as a
 4     captive third party audience with my parents at the
 5     controls, but at some point during my late teens CBC
 6     radio suddenly registered with me.  While I would
 7     continue to go to MuchMusic or commercial radio to hear
 8     my favourite music, the CBC provided intelligent
 9     dialogue and insight into the events shaping my life.
10  408                  My liability to CBC radio did not
11     come from programming being directly targeted to my age
12     group and, looking back, I think if such attempts had
13     been made I would have been suspicious of them.  We
14     should not underestimate Canada's young people.  Those
15     who choose to be informed can recognize quality
16     journalism for what it is.  They do not need it
17     candy-coated.
18  409                  For this reason, I would discourage
19     the CBC from dividing its resources further to try to
20     capture a youth market.  Instead, why not use these
21     resources to bring the embattled CBC Radio One closer
22     to its former glory for the benefit of all listeners.
23  410                  As a member of the post-boomer
24     generation, I do not feel alienated when listening to
25     CBC radio.  My contemporaries, Norah Young, Avril


 1     Benoit and Peter Brown complement the more seasoned
 2     personalities like Stewart McLean.  Marry-Lou Finley
 3     and Jason Moscovitz quite well.  All of them bring a
 4     finesse and a professionalism that is a CBC hallmark
 5     and I expect nothing more.
 6  411                  Over the past eight years my husband
 7     and I have been fortunate to live in a number of
 8     western Canadian cities, from Regina to Edmonton to
 9     Calgary and now Vancouver.  CBC radio has always helped
10     us find the pulse of our new home while keeping us in
11     touch with the happenings of our old one and I
12     challenge anyone to place a value on that.
13  412                  I was asked to respond to your
14     question should the programming provided by CBC be
15     different from that of other broadcasters?  Yes.  By
16     its very definition commercial radio is made possible
17     through advertising dollars and, as a result,
18     commercial radio is influenced by the corporations that
19     fund it.
20  413                  And because the CBC is publicly
21     funded and, therefore, free of advertiser influence,
22     its product is more balanced, more diverse and in
23     depth.
24  414                  But I am uncomfortable with the
25     spectre of government that occasionally creeps into CBC


 1     programming.  Sometimes it may come across as a simple
 2     cryptic comment from an on air host, but in the removal
 3     of Terry Milewsky from covering the APEC demonstration,
 4     it was extremely overt and verging on the totalitarian.
 5  415                  For the CBC to survive in the new
 6     millennium, the old style paternalistic hierarchy has
 7     to go.  I am not comfortable with the relationship
 8     between CBC management and the federal government, and
 9     I do not feel the CBC has done an adequate job about
10     informing Canadians about how management is appointed
11     and about how it is accountable.  I was pleased last
12     year when the CBC took its management team across
13     Canada on a town hall tour for public input.
14  416                  Overwhelming attendance made it
15     almost impossible to get near the Edmonton meeting and
16     for weeks the CBC website was alive with two-way
17     communication between management and regular Canadians
18     and it was exciting to see, but why should this stand
19     out as a momentous event?  Should not the leadership of
20     an organization be conspicuous and stand proudly by its
21     product?
22  417                  Instead, the popular image of CBC
23     management, whether accurate or not, continues to be
24     that of a reclusive and elitist group of
25     administrators.  I would welcome hearing more from


 1     Perrin Beatty and other management giving regular
 2     status reports and responding to feedback from
 3     Canadians.  Contrary to what Rex Murphy called it on
 4     Sunday's "Cross-Country Checkup", I do not consider
 5     that to be naval-gazing, I call it accountability.
 6  418                  While I believe the CBC needs to
 7     undergo serious change to survive the new millennium, I
 8     worry when I hear rumours that it is looking to
 9     commercial radio as the model.  I think there is a real
10     danger in pandering to what listeners think they want. 
11     The lowest common denominator is being well served by
12     commercial radio.
13  419                  Allow me to use the analogy of
14     commercial talk radio being to broadcasting what the
15     meat lovers' pizza is to the food world.  We all know
16     that all meat all the time causes constipation.  Listen
17     to commercial talk radio and you will know what I am
18     talking about.  Certain points of view just are not
19     getting through.
20  420                  CBC radio offers a healthy variety.
21     It challenges us, it opens doors to things we may not
22     think we need to know.  Like the four food groups are
23     to our physical health, CBC radio and its diversity are
24     essential to a healthy mind and spirit.  CBC radio is
25     our greatest national product.  It is an essential and


 1     unique fund that not only unites our country but
 2     enriches those who live here.
 3  421                  Anyone who has listened to "As It
 4     Happens" knows that a large contingent across the 49th
 5     parallel flocks to that program because it provides
 6     something they cannot get at home.  And how many things
 7     can Canada still boast that about? Thank you.
 8     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 9  422                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
10     you very much madam black.
11  423                  MS PINSKY:  Joan Robinson.
13  424                  MS ROBINSON:  I too would first like
14     to thank the CRTC for giving us the opportunity of
15     expressing our desires and hopes.  I am confining my
16     remarks to the CBC radio only which is the only radio
17     program I listen to as I cannot stand the ads in every
18     other station.
19  425                  Involvement with advertisers means
20     that they have control on programs and this would
21     interfere with the CBC's mandate.  So my first petition
22     is:  No ads on CBC radio.  I think emphasis should be
23     placed on the nation-wide service provided by the CBC. 
24     Canada's only station with a national listenership and
25     with one possible recent exception of the national


 1     newspaper, our only national media, I feel very
 2     strongly about the value of the CBC as the national
 3     exhibition of Canadian characteristics and culture.  It
 4     demonstrates so clearly the alternative to some
 5     American programs.
 6  426                  CBC is listened to all over America
 7     because of its content.  In this connection, could not
 8     support by the CRTC be given towards retention of CBC
 9     foreign broadcasts which not only are valued by our
10     citizens serving abroad but also continue in informing
11     the rest of the world about Canada.
12  427                  I submit that we need a national news
13     service which includes world news.  We need national
14     support for Canadian culture, but setting a high
15     standard for inclusion in the program.
16  428                  We need a classical music program
17     during the daytime, not this "Classics and Beyond"
18     stuff, beyond is obtainable from many other stations. 
19     It is nice to be able to make requests for music and
20     these requests come from all over the continent.
21  429                  We need high standard programs such
22     as "As It Happens".  I would like the addition of more
23     panel programs such as "Cross Canada Checkup", which
24     perhaps could have more political content so as to give
25     the public more chance to express approval or


 1     disapproval of government actions.
 2  430                  Quiz programs on general subjects
 3     such as given by the BBC would be great.
 4  431                  In view of the financial constraints
 5     placed on the CBC by the government, I will stick my
 6     neck out and suggest CBC get out of television all
 7     together which would release present TV funds to boost
 8     the CBC radio and re-establish it as the best radio
 9     station on this continent.  Thank you.
10     --- Applause / Applaudissements
11  432                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
12     you very much, Madam Robinson.
13  433                  MS PINSKY:  The next presenter is Ms
14     Linda Kelly.
16  434                  MS KELLY:  Thank you.  My name is
17     Linda Kelly and I am here as an individual listener to
18     CBC radio.  I do not represent any special interest
19     group I am just here as a individual listener to CBC.
20  435                  I would like to preface my remarks by
21     saying that I welcome the dialogue these hearings are
22     initiating and hope that the discussions will assist in
23     resolving many of the challenges facing the CBC.
24  436                  I am going to focus on three points
25     facing the CBC.  Number one, current programs,


 1     suggestions for programs and the future of the CBC.
 2     Most of my comments will deal with CBC radio, since I
 3     do not have a television set.
 4  437                  However, I would like to say a few
 5     words about one CBC television program that I am able
 6     to watch on video and that is "Davinci's Inquest".  I
 7     find that this is an excellent police drama.  It is
 8     filmed in Vancouver and has a great cast and superb
 9     scripts.  The appeal of this show is that it is local
10     in nature, it keeps the place names like Surrey and
11     Burnaby that may be embarrassing to some people, but it
12     gives it a nice kind of local slant and I think it
13     rises far above generic television series.
14  438                  Turning to CBC radio and its current
15     programming, CBC Radio One and Two are excellent
16     professional broadcasting services which I find deliver
17     news, current affairs, entertainment and information in
18     a very balanced manner.
19  439                  I appreciate having 24-hour access to
20     radio 365 days a year to what is happening in my city,
21     my country and around the world.  In such programs as
22     "As It Happens", "The House," This Morning", "CBC
23     Overnight" and local morning and afternoon information
24     programs.
25  440                  As well, I enjoy such programs as


 1     "Ideas", "In Performance", "Jurgin Goth", "Radiosonic",
 2     "After Hours with Ross Porter", and "Writers and
 3     Companies".  These are the ones that I usually listen
 4     to so you can see that I listen to a lot of radio.
 5  441                  These radio programs provide access
 6     to events which I would otherwise not have.  For
 7     instance, "In Performance" provides access to concert
 8     halls throughout Canada and around the world.  And it
 9     familiarizes me with music of Canadians through such
10     efforts as the Young Composers Competition.
11  442                  As well, "As It Happens" talks
12     directly to the news makers whether they be world
13     leaders or the ordinary person and the recent series on
14     Russia was exceptional.  With interviews from everyone
15     from a Cosmonaut to the head of the Hermitage Museum to
16     former political dissidents.
17  443                  In local programs, Vancouver's
18     afternoon show recently covered health care issues by
19     taking listeners through the doors of Surrey Memorial
20     Hospital with a live broadcast.  And I would like to
21     see more of this on-site coverage.
22  444                  But I think it is CBC's investigative
23     reports which put it ahead of other broadcasters.  In
24     the past few months, the CBC has dared to cover such
25     issues as under world crime and the HIV crisis in


 1     Canada's penitentiaries.
 2  445                  The second point I would like to
 3     address is my wish list for CBC programming.  I would
 4     just like to have more of it.  For example, more
 5     features on Canadian history, a greater focus on young
 6     people and seniors, and more representations from
 7     various cultural groups.
 8  446                  With the reworking of Canada's map
 9     next month with the creation of Nunavut, I would like
10     to hear more programming in our north.
11  447                  I think Canadian programs such as
12     "Radiosonic", and Vancouver's "North by Northwest",
13     give exposure to Canadian talent but I would also like
14     to see more programs about Canadian writers and
15     artists.
16  448                  I would also like to hear more on
17     world literature such as the great text series which
18     was presented recently on "This Morning", with Michael
19     Enright and Avril Benoit.
20  449                  CBC's new "Outfront" series gives
21     ordinary Canadians access to air time and it has been
22     encouraging to see that a lot of these contributions
23     have come from young people.  In a time when CBC is
24     criticized for attracting mostly an aging audience, it
25     is refreshing to find that "Outfront" brings not only a


 1     different perspective but an experimental format to
 2     radio largely from young contributors.  It really needs
 3     to go after a younger audience, I feel.
 4  450                  The current labour dispute at CBC and
 5     the cut backs over the past number of years are giving
 6     us a taste of what a diminished CBC is like.  This
 7     brings me to my final point and the reason I am here
 8     today and that is to lobby for the future of the CBC.
 9  451                  I am concerned that the CBC will not
10     be around much longer because of cut backs and because
11     of the mind set that the CBC is no longer relevant. 
12     The truth is, the CBC is always having to justify its
13     existence.  It faces challenges from a number of
14     fronts, from apathy, from people who would like to see
15     it dismantled, from those who would want it privatized,
16     to questions about relevancy of its programs to the
17     commercialism that is creeping into its programs
18     through endorsement of products.
19  452                  Moreover, the arm's length approach
20     relationship of government to the CBC has narrowed and
21     this raises concerns about where funding should come
22     from for the CBC.
23  453                  In the past few years, the CBC has
24     been resilient in doing the best with the funding it
25     receives.  But how far can this resiliency stretch


 1     before it affects the quality of programmes?  Many
 2     listeners already agree that the quality of programming
 3     has suffered.
 4  454                  Funding is one of the major
 5     challenges facing the CBC and it needs to be examined
 6     in depth if the broadcaster is to continue to fulfil
 7     its mandate to provide programming which reflects and
 8     promotes Canadian culture.  The administrators,
 9     programmers, reporters, on air personalities and
10     technicians who make up the CBC do a tremendous job, I
11     feel, given the resources that they have available. 
12     And I believe they are always trying to meet the needs
13     of their audience by providing a wide choice in
14     programming.
15  455                  But there is no doubt that the tastes
16     of the audience do change and the CBC has to continue
17     to respond to those changes through innovative
18     programming especially aimed, I feel, at a younger
19     audience.  While a lot of other radio stations provide
20     repetitive, limited programming, CBC continues to offer
21     intelligent, balanced and professional reports and
22     features.
23  456                  Moreover, the CBC unites Canadians as
24     a community by enabling us to talk and listen and share
25     ideas through the broadcasting medium.


 1  457                  Please let the CBC continue to fulfil
 2     its mandate.  Thank you very much for letting me
 3     express my views.
 4  458                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
 5     you.
 6  459                  MS PINSKY:  Ms Goldie Rodgers in the
 7     next presenter.
 9  460                  MS RODGERS:  I wish to speak about
10     CBC non-commercial FM, AM radio.  It is the only radio
11     station I turn on and I hope that I will be able to
12     have it with me all my days and I miss it right now,
13     the first day when the engineers rightfully went on
14     strike, I was lost.
15  461                  My first real point on CBC is as has
16     been stated it is national, t is not national, it is a
17     national treasure.  Can you think of a country that
18     would dispose of one of its most treasurable cultural
19     items?  It binds the entire country together from the
20     Atlantic Ocean to the Pacific coast, including the
21     Arctic Ocean.
22  462                  My second point, and you asked us to
23     speak as regards regional programs, I feel that the
24     daily three-hours, AM radio program is sufficient time
25     in which to learn what takes place in the different


 1     regions of our country.
 2  463                  I would like to be better informed in
 3     greater depth as to what is taking place in the
 4     northern territories such as a has been mentioned
 5     Nunavut and I have Innuvik down, too, but it just means
 6     that I wish to know more about what is happening there.
 7  464                  Now, I want to give a little comment
 8     here.  This is not regional, this is national radio. 
 9     But I find no better source of information or for the
10     type of newspapers that we have here than the daily
11     news on the CBC radio, both FM and AM.  Being that it
12     is only half an hour, it contains much more in depth
13     information and information even from international
14     issues than I can get in newspaper.
15  465                  I do not really trust quite what the
16     sponsors of a man like Black are giving me or even an
17     emergency I will turn on the television only if there
18     is a very great emergency and I have to find out what
19     is happening or what new battles certain countries are
20     engaging in, but essentially it is the radio that I get
21     really news items that I can think about and maybe try
22     to relate to and do better.
23  466                  You asked about the amount of
24     Canadian content.  Those persons -- no, I am going to
25     skip this, just a minute.  I believe the Canadian


 1     content on CBC radio, FM and AM is sufficient as is. 
 2     As for TV, that is for others to discuss Canadian
 3     content.  I don't know anything about it because I do
 4     not watch it, except for perhaps -- no, the only thing
 5     I really watch is the Knowledge Network, if ever.
 6  467                  The excellence of the content is the
 7     criteria, whether it is Canadian or not.  Of course, in
 8     areas where Canadian content excels, use it.  For
 9     example, if it is a rock music performance, by all
10     means let us hear these Canadian artists.
11  468                  If there is another wonderful group
12     of performers from another country, it would be
13     interesting to listen to them, but give the Canadian
14     performers preference in the allotted time.
15  469                  As regards contemporary Canadian
16     composers, the CBC radio FM provides a programme called
17     "Two New Hours".  You hear that every Sunday evening,
18     whether it comes from the new music festivals in oh,
19     gosh, the middle province, not Alberta but -- not
20     Saskatchewan, Manitoba.  Yeah, whether it seems to have
21     more backing at the start at least from Manitoba or
22     whether it comes as last night, maybe Alberta, but you
23     have that evening which is very supportive of Canadian
24     composers.
25  470                  Now that program that I heard, I


 1     believe it was last night, they had finalists from all
 2     over Canada.  These people do not have to be Canadian
 3     born, they just had to have Canadian citizenship.  And
 4     Jack did a perfectly beautiful piece.  I was glad they
 5     gave them him the first prize, but the other two people
 6     were also very good.
 7  471                  And in modern music I do not often
 8     say "very good".  I am a musician, and I am rather
 9     critical.  You can also hear on that station "Two New
10     Hours" Armory Shaver, a very fine composer of -- a
11     Canadian, contemporary.  But the beauty of that is, and
12     that is not "Music and Beyond", that is that they all
13     also had on that program not last night, but they had
14     many other programs where they are intelligent enough
15     to understand that there are composers all over the
16     world and they will present composers who come to the
17     festivals on the radio station who have come from other
18     countries.
19  472                  I heard something so beautiful by a
20     Finnish composer it was more modern than Sibelius and a
21     lot of people knew about that composer but I did not
22     and I heard that on "Two New Hours".  And so I will
23     tell you that a certain amount of Canadian content is
24     necessary, but you have to think carefully of what the
25     criteria is.  Now, every -- let us see, I took care of


 1     that one.
 2  473                  Another thing that is so marvelous
 3     about the radio stations, CBC and this one is FM two,
 4     although I listen to FM one also.  FM two gives you
 5     concerts but sometimes those concerts are live.
 6  474                  Now, a live concert is to me almost
 7     as good as being there.
 8  475                  A concert that is recorded except for
 9     Glenn Gould, whose records could be done 28 times until
10     he got it right and it sounds alive, most recorded
11     recordings which are not live, records never take the
12     place of a live performance.  But here you can at least
13     get a live performance, sometimes you will hear Charles
14     Dubois direct, right from Montreal, or you will also go
15     to Thompson Centre and if Pekka Jukka Saraste is
16     conducting, it is wonderful.  Not always, but we get
17     live programs and they go throughout the country.
18  476                  The arts are international.  And that
19     has to be reckoned with.  So, for example, on stage on
20     Sunday, oh, it is very nice to hear Antoine Cartier, he
21     is a remarkable pianist.  I call him one of the
22     treasures that the United States has given to Canada.
23  477                  But do you think I am going to turn
24     off and say I do not want to hear anyone from the
25     European broadcasting system?  I heard Louis Lortie do


 1     Beethoven's fourth here right in our own Orpheum, but I
 2     also heard him do it over the European broadcasting
 3     system.  You have to be open, not just Canadian
 4     content.  I believe we have sufficient Canadian content
 5     on CBC radio.
 6  478                  Now I am going to share a funny
 7     little anecdote with you.  In the early 1980s, and I am
 8     not making it up, it really happened, over the CBC
 9     radio, it must have been the FM, I heard a member of
10     Parliament complaining about the CBC radio FM.  He
11     wanted to know why the FM radio plays music vie by a
12     foreigner named Beethoven.
13  479                  Now, recently we lost one of our
14     great composers, Harry Sommers.  And I am looking
15     forward to that late day that Eric Friesen said we were
16     going to have in which we could hear many of his things
17     programmed and I would love it and I would love
18     especially to hear the opera "Louis Riel" if they would
19     do that again some time in Canada.
20  480                  But that does, just because I want to
21     see that, and so badly, that does not mean that I do
22     not want to hear music by a foreigner named Beethoven. 
23     Well, I think I took care of the Canadian content.
24  481                  The fourth thing I have to say is CBC
25     radio FM and AM radio is a learning experience.  As


 1     some of the other speakers have implied, I, too, feel
 2     that there is so much knowledge.  The knowledge comes
 3     not out of the air, it comes because the people who
 4     host those programs are many times wonderful
 5     authoritative people in the fields that they host.  So
 6     you do not just get a commentator who puts on something
 7     or says something, but at any rate, you do not get
 8     that, you get real information and then even if you
 9     think you know a lot about something, you find out
10     more.
11  482                  I am afraid to name too many people
12     that I like because I will hurt some of those that I
13     leave out.  So please forgive me because I know that
14     there are some of those wonderful commentators that I
15     am not going to talk about but here are some special
16     things.
17  483                  I think Sheila Rodgers is doing a
18     good job on "Take 5".  I miss Kenneth Winters like
19     everything but he is not on the CBC any more.  The
20     music is terrific on the FM and even if you want to say
21     "Music and Beyond" usually the beyond is nothing to
22     sneer at they are doing a darn good job with what they
23     have if you do not like that terminology you can take
24     it away but you cannot take away the good things they
25     are doing with the beautiful programming they have in


 1     music.
 2  484                  I have referred to classical -- not
 3     exactly popular music, they can get all the other on
 4     any other place.
 5  485                  One of the programs that I love the
 6     most I share with another person here who mentioned it,
 7     that program "Writers and Company".  Where do you get a
 8     person who knows how to interview and who knows the
 9     writers and who is able to speak every week to a
10     different writer from all countries, from our country,
11     with supreme intelligence, Eleanor Wachtel is a gem.
12  486                  Now, that takes care of -- you learn,
13     that is literature.
14  487                  You know you can get ten different
15     versions of Beethoven's "Emperor" concerto.  Well,
16     whose version will you take?  You may not always agree
17     with him, but Rick Phillips has very good and sound
18     advice.  I am so old-fashioned I still have my old
19     record of Claudio Arou doing the "Emperor".
20  488                  But it is so wonderful hearing
21     comparisons made and Rick Phillips is so versatile in
22     the different performers that he gives us.
23  489                  I do want to thank Sheila Roberts for
24     doing a beautiful thing for Yehudi Menuin the other
25     day.  And it was so nice to hear him with CBC and


 1     Canada's Glenn Gould because apparently they played
 2     together and there were recordings in their archives.
 3  490                  Sometimes at night I kid some people
 4     and I say which do I go to bed with is it going to be
 5     Eric Friesen, or is it going to be Lester Sinclair. 
 6     Lester Sinclair's program and ideas and Bernie Lukt,
 7     his producer, are to be totally commended.
 8  491                  As you know, Lester does not always
 9     do the exact program, but he gets the people many times
10     that are in charge of the programming to get research
11     persons who present the issues.  The person named, I
12     think it is Paul Kennedy, who recently also went to
13     Russia and to many of this type of thing, it is due to
14     Lester Sinclair and his own programs are very, very
15     good, too.
16  492                  And the latest knowledge that I
17     learned the overnight was about schizophrenia.  I am
18     not a schizophrenic but I have a friend who has a
19     daughter who is.  And, you know, this might interest
20     you.  Schizophrenic -- people that are twins that are
21     identical, one of them could be schizophrenic and one
22     not, but the only difference that they have found is
23     that in the brain, where apparently certain genes are
24     located, the genes of the schizophrenic one has more
25     space around it and that is seemingly the difference of


 1     why one is and one is not.
 2  493                  Well, that is not the cure, but at
 3     least it gives you a little bit of something for the
 4     scientists to work on in the brain as to what is taking
 5     place in that other area, the ventricle, in the brain
 6     of the twin who is schizoid.  Well, that is not music,
 7     my field, but look how much more I can learn.  And of
 8     course I always force myself to listen to things about
 9     computers.  Okay.
10  494                  Number five, maybe the reason I sound
11     a little different from some of you is because although
12     I had a wonderful Canadian husband, I was born in New
13     York.  And I have dual Canadian-United States
14     citizenship.  So, therefore, I feel qualified to state
15     that, with all its wealth and power, the United States
16     has nothing to compare with our CBC.
17     --- Applause / Applaudissements
18  495                  MS RODGERS:  It is truly a national
19     cultural treasure, even for the listeners from the
20     United States who write in to thank us for presenting
21     the wonderful musical programs they hear because their
22     station now no longer is presenting that kind of a
23     program that they were used to.
24  496                  There are a few stations in the
25     States that are extremely relevant.  One of them was


 1     blown up in Texas when I lived there, but I understand
 2     from a friend that they are doing a good job, but they
 3     are minute.  It is nothing to compare with what we
 4     have.
 5  497                  So what can we do to save it?  The
 6     numerous cuts -- I do not want to even talk or hear
 7     about them because they are obnoxious and the idea of
 8     the federal government not supporting their own
 9     national treasure.  Allowing this treasure to die --
10     they are not going to be allowed to die, we are going
11     to fight it like anything.
12  498                  I suggest we write letters.  You
13     know, letters count.  I forget if it is 900 for every
14     letter to a person.  I happen to be one of these who do
15     writes letters and usually my letters get answered and
16     on top of getting answered sometimes I even help to
17     find solutions.  And that is the truth.
18  499                  So let me suggest to whom you might
19     right and I think you know the type of a letter, be it
20     polite or not it is almost nice to say what our country
21     has that someone else cannot take away or cannot even
22     compare to because not only flattering, it is the
23     truth.
24  500                  You may right to Chrétien, cultural
25     minister Sheila Copps, who I think is a sympathetic


 1     human being and to one that I do not write to very
 2     often who once never answered a letter of mine, Paul
 3     Martin, but he is the finance minister and I want to
 4     have him know that for a finance minister to refuse a
 5     national treasure to continue to live is most unusual
 6     because treasures and finance are related.
 7  501                  You may also decide to become a
 8     friend of the CBC, which I am not the most affluent
 9     friend but I certainly am a friend of the CBC and give
10     them whatever I can to spare.  The CRTC is asking us to
11     assess the CBC.  I can give you one assessment.  You
12     should be proud to be able to assess such a wonderful
13     CBC radio program that we have in Canada.
14  502                  And now I want to tell you a personal
15     story.  We no longer have much of CBC international the
16     way it was.  The friend who has typed my statement has
17     had a new life in Canada since 1985.  Thanks to CBC
18     international radio he had a short wave set which he
19     listened to when he was living in fear in Chile under
20     the Pinochet regime.  I don't know if I shall go any
21     further with it.  He told me that maybe they -- maybe
22     we should not because it might be political and I am
23     not -- I have the names of the ambassador in Chile at
24     that time who was wonderful and I can give you the name
25     of the person if you need to have it.  So I have them,


 1     but I am not stating them here.
 2  503                  When he heard that program, and they
 3     said on it, if any of you are having extremely
 4     difficult political problems, why don't you contact the
 5     Canadian embassy.  The very next day, he called the
 6     lady, and this is all in Spanish that that program was
 7     presented.  The next day he called the lady at the
 8     Chilean embassy -- no, he called the Canadian embassy
 9     and received the lady who spoke to him in Spanish, oh,
10     no, I don't know what you are talking about and he said
11     but I do know what I am talking about.  I have a short
12     wave radio and I heard them say that.  So I want to see
13     the ambassador.  So she got in touch with the
14     ambassador and she said he will have to fill out quite
15     a few pages of what his problem is and then perhaps we
16     will get in touch.
17  504                  I want you to know that within eight
18     months after that, that man was told you can come to
19     Canada, you are a political refugee and we will help
20     you all we can and now he is a graduate of BCIT and he
21     is able to have a little business in welding of his own
22     and is extremely happy to be able to know that he typed
23     my letter to tell you how wonderful the CBC
24     international was and he told me, again, it saved his
25     life.


 1  505                  I think that is enough out of me.
 2     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 3  506                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
 4     you very much, Mrs. Rodgers.  Thank you very much.
 5  507                  MS PINSKY:  The next presenter is Ms
 6     Jillian Tebbitt.
 8  508                  MS TEBBITT:  Thank you for the
 9     opportunity to make this submission.  My focus is on
10     radio and I deal initially with CBC's role and
11     differences with the private broadcast media.  If there
12     is no public medium, and if what I want to say is
13     contrary to that which the private media publish or
14     broadcast, then how does my voice get heard?  It does
15     not.
16  509                  The role of our public broadcaster
17     and particularly the non-commercial radio service of
18     CBC is that of the guardian of Canadian democracy.
19     Democracy, of course, does not suit control freaks or
20     those who feel entitled to deny entitlement to others
21     as it is really a negotiation process aimed at finding
22     win-win relationships.
23  510                  On the bottom line of this role is a
24     profound respect for the interests of diverse members
25     of our society and the cost of airing, exploring and


 1     debating the issues which arise out of that diversity
 2     is what democracy costs.  The private media, both print
 3     and broadcast, have a different bottom line summed up
 4     succinctly in the island community newspaper when
 5     Southam absorbed the "Times-Colonist" last year.
 6  511                  Suggest wants the same thing that
 7     Thompson wanted, a good and profitable newspaper that
 8     reflects and leads the community it covers.
 9  512                  Reflecting their own leadership is
10     part of the bottom line of the private media where
11     freedom of the press includes the freedom to be
12     self-censoring.
13  513                  Where CBC is the messenger of the vox
14     populi, the voice of the people, the private media
15     regard themselves not only of the vox dei but as the
16     voice of God itself.
17  514                  If CBC is indistinguishable from
18     private broadcasters, then why have CBC?  It makes no
19     sense to me that, to be competitive, CBC must
20     homogenize with a private format.  To do so would be to
21     sabotage the public voice and in effect would dismantle
22     our democracy.
23  515                  However, if CBC in its own internal
24     culture becomes an advocate for specific political
25     religious, academic, scientific, corporate et al


 1     positions, then it ceases to be a safe custodian for
 2     diverse opinion and discussion.
 3  516                  So essential to the role of the
 4     public broadcaster is journalistic difference between
 5     reportage and opinion, advocacy and impartiality.
 6  517                  The following gives some indication
 7     of kinds of discomfort I have around CBC's internal
 8     cultural voice.  In recent years I have heard both in
 9     the text of news reportage and in the sneering derisive
10     tones of a number of interviewers what has at times
11     amounted to a relentless targeting of governments and
12     indeed of government per se which I expect from the
13     privately owned media.
14  518                  Demanding accountability from all our
15     governments is essential to our democracy.  What
16     concerns me about the shark feed is that I don't know
17     for how long any person in any job can withstand
18     undiluted negative feedback and maintain their
19     equilibrium and effectiveness.  I feel that if the
20     standards of stateship decline, then we the people in
21     both our private and public media play a part and carry
22     a share of accountability for that decline.
23  519                  Relevant to me as a listener and
24     voter is spirited political discourse aired regularly
25     and providing a full spectrum of opinion for CBC to


 1     become a positional player or act as official
 2     opposition rather than be a facilitator of the debate
 3     reduces everything into a good guys, bad guys, our
 4     side, their side scrum which we see too much in
 5     politics itself.
 6  520                  It is obvious while listening to the
 7     political critique, that conspicuous by its absence is
 8     critique of the same magnitude of other power sectors
 9     whose decisions and actions have equal or maybe even
10     more impact on the structure of our society.
11  521                  Lise Noel, in her book "Intolerance,
12     a General Survey", opens her first chapter with the
13     sentence:  "The oppressor has no apparent existence,
14     i.e., is invisible."
15  522                  As the private media are reluctant to
16     demand accountability or visibility from their own
17     interest group, CBC is the only medium that can level
18     the same magnitude of critique and exert the same
19     pressure for accountability and visibility upon all
20     those who wield power, whether political, economic or
21     otherwise.  The arm's length relationship embraces more
22     than just governments and the "we have no choice"
23     mantra from folks who have more choice than most needs
24     a good challenge.
25  523                  The question of impartiality also


 1     applies to the increase in religious content in daily
 2     programming.  Religion is enormously important in the
 3     lives of many and important to many others is the
 4     critique and exploration of beliefs and dogma.  Without
 5     debate on religion in the schedule, there arises a
 6     concern about advocacy in CBC's own voice.
 7  524                  Also, the opinions, values and
 8     judgmentalism on Sunday's "Cross-Country Checkup" so
 9     overwhelms the airwaves that I am left wondering
10     whether the intent is to discourage views with which
11     the host disagrees.  I think his undoubted humour and
12     idiosyncratic language, it takes one to recognize one,
13     needs an unambiguous opinion spot all of its own.
14  525                  One personal point, while I know that
15     radio audiences are chronologically enriched, there are
16     some of us who still have a pulse.
17  526                  I should be grateful if CBC would
18     revisit its retropolicy, the good old days were good
19     only for some where, anything but democratic, and I
20     feel it is time to go bravely and creatively forwards
21     into the coming years.
22  527                  On national regional service and
23     Canadian programming, on national programs I enjoy
24     immensely the reports from the periphery, that is we,
25     the regions, yet I do not really hear Yukon, the


 1     Northwest Territories, Manitoba or Nova Scotia as they
 2     hear themselves.
 3  528                  I still feel separated from the rest
 4     of Canada and would welcome hearing original local
 5     programming occasionally aired nationally.  This might
 6     alleviate the impression that everything has been
 7     pretty-fied by production central in Montreal and
 8     Toronto.
 9  529                  Canadian programs about and by
10     Canadians are a fundamental part of CBC's role.  As
11     insularity and narcissism are the down sides of too
12     much of our own stuff, I feel it important to maintain
13     a balance with international content and the current
14     schedule achieves this.  "Ideas, "Writers and Company"
15     and the many documentaries are examples of extremely
16     fine programming.  A balance between issues of
17     substance with humour and entertainment is also
18     important.  I feel CBC achieves a successful mix.
19  530                  The "Dead Dog Cafe" comedy hour's 25
20     minutes is a satirical highlight I appreciate greatly. 
21     It is also about the only truly first nation's voice I
22     hear that is not anthropologized or confined to news
23     items on land claims.
24  531                  At times I hear on CBC's internal
25     culture voice that Canadians are a population half of


 1     whom came with the camembert from Calais and the other
 2     half came with the bangers and mash from Bornemouth.
 3  532                  I feel there is a cultural richness
 4     in our land which can be further explored in
 5     programming.
 6  533                  In conclusion, I have never felt that
 7     CBC's executive make a strong enough case for CBC's
 8     role as the custodian of our Canadian democracy.  If
 9     this role is not clarified in CBC's mandate, then a
10     further examination of the mandate seems necessary
11     together with an examination of CBC's internal cultural
12     voice.  Vital to CBC's role is the provocative, dynamic
13     critical dialogue, in-depth, investigative and
14     documentary programming on both national and
15     international issues which CBC is so accomplished at
16     producing and which are costly.
17  534                  However, for any government to close
18     the public purse to the public voice raises serious
19     questions as to the continued status of Canada as a
20     democracy.
21  535                  Finally, my years of work in the
22     severely censored media of a fascist police state
23     together with the global evidence of how whole
24     populations become social road kill in places where
25     they are denied a voice have provided me with a deep


 1     and abiding respect for the civility which we work to
 2     create in our society.
 3  536                  CBC is my most cherished institution
 4     in the service of this aspect of Canadian identity.
 5     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 6  537                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
 7     you.
 8  538                  MS PINSKY:  Mr. Donald Morin is the
 9     next presenter.
11  539                  MR. MORIN:  Good afternoon everyone
12     thank you for being here.  CBC has lost its original
13     mandate as a national broadcaster due to the
14     proliferation of cable TV, home video, direct TV,
15     interactive technologies and multimedia platforms.
16     CBC's role is further weakened by the expansion of
17     private broadcasting consortiums and the
18     monumentalization of joint venture communication
19     corporations.  Another detriment to CBC is the
20     Americanization of Canadian culture and the ideological
21     preference of viewers in the highly mediated world of
22     constant and immediate change.
23  540                  Through technology, we have come to
24     the point of oversaturation.  What is more immediate
25     than immediate for people without this technological


 1     access, CBC may have been simply a household fixture
 2     for people in rural areas.  On the other hand,
 3     information technology should remain accessible for all
 4     Canadians.
 5  541                  There is more work to be done in the
 6     areas of cultural appropriation, cultural propaganda,
 7     cultural protectionism within both private and public
 8     spheres.
 9  542                  A good example of these multifaceted
10     ideas is Sheila Copps' position with the mass screen
11     and film industries.  Specifically, American's reaction
12     to the magazine tariffs.  And, secondly, B.C.'s film
13     industry's reaction to the proposed feature film
14     legislation.
15  543                  Trade wars and economic
16     protectionism.  CBC must encourage and help develop
17     Canadian feature film and television productions in
18     Canada.  Another aspect of appropriation relates to
19     colonialism and more importantly how cultural
20     authenticity has become a central issue.
21  544                  An example of this is TVNC's
22     Aboriginal People's Television Network, APTN.  Such
23     competition will encourage the idea that CBC scrutinize
24     its relationship with aboriginal producers and
25     producers of culturally diverse background.


 1  545                  CBC must provide Canadian programming
 2     which is reflective of current market value and respect
 3     for one's culture and history.  Aboriginal people's
 4     cultural credibility and more importantly their
 5     authenticity must be a priority.
 6  546                  Cultural propaganda has been historic
 7     evidence resulting from the exploitation of culture by
 8     mechanisms of the state.  Examples of these mechanisms
 9     are illustrated triumph of the will, even though Ms
10     Riefenstall had an amazing career as a film maker, her
11     most scarring project came under the German government
12     film board UFA studio, opening credits stated produced
13     by order of the Furer, directed by Riefenstall.
14  547                  Next the CIA's and U.S. invasion of
15     Guatemala in 1954.  CIA created a radio station and
16     propagated information to the Guatemalans who encourage
17     dissent against the government.  The leader died in
18     exile, a result of the direct corporate and
19     governmental complicity.
20  548                  The Gustafson and Oka incidents are
21     further examples of how cultural apparatuses are used
22     in favour of producing a negative reaction against the
23     First Nations people.  Smugglers insurgents,
24     provocateurs, militants, inaccurate RCMP reports given
25     to reporters, television, radio and print media,


 1     including CBC, dutifully created biting, jarring and
 2     insightful native and non-native relations.  When does
 3     a story stop becoming news and become a media tool in
 4     media promoted events.  Here references include APEC
 5     and the CBC reporter.  What exactly happened with
 6     Chrétien, APEC's CBC reporter Terry Milewsky, the
 7     e-mails Gerald Morin and Ted Hughes.  Propaganda has
 8     become a media marketing tool.
 9  549                  Another question is whether or not
10     native land claims will be settled to these questions
11     and others.  I truly hope that CBC provides leadership
12     by promoting aboriginal interests in all spheres
13     another conscientious issue is whether or not
14     aboriginals will form a third level of government.  It
15     would seem plausible, given the constitutional status
16     of aboriginal people in section 35 of the Constitution.
17  550                  It is unfortunate that television
18     technology has given impetuousness to the power of the
19     state.  Information is good.  However, when it is used
20     to infringe on collective rights, one then can see the
21     arbitrariness of police power.
22  551                  As a result, Charter of Rights
23     provisions such as free speech, liberty and equality
24     rights are ignored.  At that point, rule of law is
25     meaningless.


 1  552                  Finally, these concerns that I raise
 2     also affect other issues such as social disparities,
 3     divisions between races and economic repercussions.
 4     Does CBC truly represent Canada's true identity?  In my
 5     current film, "For You Babe, Kichibanitu", many of
 6     these these issues are portrayed.
 7  553                  If Canadian broadcasters begin to see
 8     the value within this film, I seriously believe that I
 9     can deliver an honest and timely story about
10     contemporary native and non-native issues.
11  554                  While working at CBC it was not hard
12     to see systemic racism.  Moreover, it is my view that
13     systemic racism, although not deliberate, affects
14     content and programming on the CBC.
15  555                  Due to a commitment by CBC employment
16     equity, I was hired as a production assistant.  On my
17     first day working as an assistant, one non-native
18     producer commented during my introduction, "Why
19     couldn't we find one of them in here."
20  556                  Another illustration occurred during
21     a production meeting back then when a current
22     non-native producer made a racist comment.  I quote, in
23     her words:  "Well, the Injuns are at it, again."
24  557                  This was during the 1990s when
25     native/non-native relations are strained.  Given the


 1     report, it is my opinion that CBC associates may have a
 2     tainted view of aboriginal people overall.  My question
 3     is whether or not this is determinative of society's
 4     position.  If yes, it is then CBC must lead the way by
 5     reinforcing positive affirmations of role models
 6     through film and media.  Failure to do so will result
 7     in historical stereotyping of aboriginals that so often
 8     plagues our society.
 9  558                  It was a learning experience to work
10     at CBC.  People as a whole must understand the
11     pre-conceptions of colonialism in order to mitigate
12     against the propagation of the past.  There must be a
13     healing and understanding at this point people have an
14     idea of the genocidal impact of these difficult tiles.
15  559                  CBC must play a vital role in
16     educating new immigrants and other new Canadians
17     regarding stereotypes, misconceptions and other
18     negative notions of aboriginal which is all totally
19     unacceptable.
20  560                  CBC's commitment to "The Rez" was
21     reasonable in its presentation but totally void of
22     authenticity.  The program may have hired native actors
23     and native staff they are nothing more than interpreter
24     artists, working on a project adapted from a non-native
25     author.  Non-native people making money off of


 1     aboriginal representation.
 2  561                  A better way is to allow aboriginal
 3     artists young and old to retain key creative and
 4     producing positions.  One other example in the
 5     commitment alluded to above was "North of 60".  It was
 6     a promising show and perhaps justifiable given the
 7     number of opportunities for aboriginal artists. 
 8     Stories were dynamic, engaging and entertaining. 
 9     However, another fictional representation of reserve
10     and native life and misrepresentational on the reserve
11     of the downtown east side of Vancouver.
12  562                  CBC's 1998 coverage of the crack
13     problem on the Vancouver east side further exacerbated
14     the plight of many urban natives living off the
15     reserves.  Is this the appropriate forum to make
16     judgment on segments of our society?  I think not.
17  563                  The reality of the plights of natives
18     living in the east end arbitrarily becomes recorded in
19     the coverage.  One native friend of mine ran away from
20     the camera afraid and mistrusting of the roving
21     apparatus.
22  564                  This reality may be illustrative of a
23     small population of natives in that area, but should
24     not be determinative of all natives.  The live show
25     from the downtown east side showed promise, but reeked


 1     of economic and cultural superiority as middle class
 2     reporters and technicians roved the dirty streets on
 3     the assumption they cared about social issues.
 4  565                  I suggest that, in reality, they are
 5     making a mockery of these unfortunate people in the
 6     east and the live show was seen as another case of
 7     sensationalism limited and honesty and respect and over
 8     indulging in its desire to extrapolate on the drug
 9     problem.
10  566                  Regarding the archaicness or
11     contemporariness of CBC programming we are in a period
12     of interrelations between analogue, digital and optical
13     reproductions and transmission of data through computer
14     generated imagery, global satellite positioning,
15     satellite telecommunication and existing technologies. 
16     We are going beyond Walter Benjamin's theories of the
17     age of reproduction to the age of technological
18     authenticity.  We are being reproduced in accordance to
19     the technology and more importantly to the demands of a
20     consumer culture.
21  567                  We must not be caught up in the
22     quasi- scientific or technological wizardry of media
23     artists, television artists who use the latest
24     technology to twist the truth.
25  568                  CBC's role as a public broadcaster


 1     must be watched closely so that there is no
 2     interference from federal governmental bodies or
 3     private interests wanting to propagate misinformation
 4     for political economic gain.
 5  569                  For the next millennium CBC must be
 6     aggressive in its acquisition of Canadian programming
 7     and create subsidiary markets and mediums for the
 8     interaction of media related platforms and technologies
 9     from live web cam game shows to 3DTV, to prime time
10     television.
11  570                  With the coming of high definition
12     television, CBC must develop beyond the populist
13     mentality of material cultural development and produce
14     programming which reflects the reality of our society.
15  571                  We must clean house, throw out the
16     old and bring in new ideas, new visions, new management
17     and new producers.  Land claims must be resolved openly
18     and honestly.  CBC must provide unbiased coverage of
19     all these formal issues discussed before.
20  572                  Public broadcasters must clearly
21     represent native historical relationships with the
22     Government of Canada.  Failure to do this, CBC will be
23     responsible for not explaining the fiduciary duty that
24     is owed to the native people by the current government. 
25     With uncertainty and lack of resolution on any of these


 1     issues, society in general will only remember the
 2     negative aspects of the first people in our country.
 3  573                  I firmly believe this is something
 4     that CBC does not want to carry over to the next
 5     millennium.
 6  574                  How well CBC serves the regional and
 7     national sections of Canada depends on affiliates'
 8     appropriate windows, satellite fees, strength of
 9     broadcasting signal and consumer technology.
10  575                  Programming provided by CBC radio and
11     television should be totally re-evaluated in relation
12     to competition, channels are available during any given
13     time and be challenging to the influx of American
14     programs if Oprah is on one channel, what is our
15     Canadian equivalent?  Will Canadians produce shows that
16     challenge the status quo of Canadianism and stand up
17     against American cultural Imperialism, a show that
18     captures the Canadian-American audiences and lures them
19     out of a moronic state?
20  576                  Budget cuts do not help.  We must
21     invest in a higher quality of programming.  I emphasize
22     that CBC must continue to produce honest
23     straightforward journalism and cultural programming
24     without the hierarchy of Euro-centred validation and
25     present broadcasting which is based on honesty,


 1     humility and respect.
 2  577                  Canada's cultural apparatuses,
 3     haunted by its Frasonian past tends to produce
 4     programming which may be criticized as a regurgitation
 5     of documentaries, news shorts and specific Canadian
 6     tableau programming.
 7  578                  Yet CBC is a welcome view in relation
 8     to the slick, classic and over dramatic caricatures of
 9     American television.  CBC programming may be seen as
10     dull and an old adage of BBC and the British empire and
11     a pale reflection of the Hollywood hallucination and
12     what is propagated through American media.
13  579                  Yet current Canadian broadcasting
14     stations are pushed out of business by the marketing
15     giants of corporate media demigods, a minority group of
16     powerful forces who want to create a new world order. 
17     We must put aside our egos, and selfish interests and
18     communicate who we are as one country.  CBC must take
19     extreme risks to survive and compete in the next
20     millennium and be ready for constant change.
21  580                  In closing, I acknowledge the CRTC's
22     mandate and hope that my comments both negative and
23     positive provide impetus for change.  Change is a good
24     thing if needed but it must be properly focused to the
25     approach to the issues canvassed above.  This brief was


 1     drawn up in consultation with Ronald Alexander Morin,
 2     criminologist and UBC law graduate and dialogues with
 3     associates of Manitou Creations Incorporated.
 4  581                  If there are further questions,
 5     please contact me through e-mail or my website. 
 6     Meg'wich, all my relations.
 7     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 8  582                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
 9     you, Mr. Morin, merci.
10  583                  MS PINSKY:  I will now call up the
11     next group of presenters.  Those of you presently at
12     the table are welcome to stay, if you would like.
13  584                  The first presenter will be madame
14     Martine Galibois-Barss.
16  585                  MME GALIBOIS-BARSS: Bonjour et
17     bienvenue, Madame Bertrand, ainsi que certains membres
18     du Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
19     télécommunications canadiennes.
20  586                  Notre présentation devant vous
21     aujourd'hui dans le cadre d'audiences en vue du
22     renouvellement des licences d'exploitation de la
23     Société Radio-Canada s'appuie sur l'importance de cette
24     société de la Couronne, représente quant au
25     développement des communautés francophones et des


 1     jeunes francophones de l'Ouest canadien et des
 2     Territoires.
 3  587                  Il est important de se rappeler le
 4     rôle essentiel que Radio-Canada a joué tout au long de
 5     son histoire dans l'Ouest.  Dans le soutien au
 6     développement des communautés francophones, que ce soit
 7     en fournissant des services d'information, en
 8     produisant des programmes culturels et en procurant aux
 9     francophones de ces régions, un lieu d'expression et un
10     outil de rassemblement.
11  588                  Un fait troublant dans l'histoire
12     récente des communautés, c'est que cette institution
13     nationale a subi des réductions budgétaires radicales,
14     proche de l'asphysie financière, alors que pendant que
15     cette même période, les communautés francophones
16     accueillaient des jugements historiques, y compris de
17     la Cour suprême du Canada, reconnaissant ces droits en
18     éducation dans la langue officielle minoritaire, ainsi
19     qu'une responsabilité collective au développement et à
20     l'épanouissement de la langue française, ici comme
21     ailleurs au Canada.
22  589                  Si la Société compose avec les
23     réalités régionales et nationales de son mandat, la
24     révolution numérique à laquelle nous assistons l'amène
25     aussi à s'engager avec détermination dans le monde de


 1     l'internet où elle occupe déjà une place remarquable.
 2  590                  Elle est le premier réseau de radio
 3     francophone au monde qui diffuse en continu sur
 4     l'internet.  Dans un monde ou les médias numériques
 5     sont la voix du présent et de l'avenir, la Société
 6     Radio-Canada dans l'Ouest entend ainsi élargir son
 7     mandat et devenir un partenaire communautaire dans une
 8     intervention dont bénéficieront écoles, étudiants, et
 9     communautés francophones.
10  591                  Faisant partie d'un bureau de
11     direction composé de membres qui ont participé à de
12     nombreuses batailles juridiques et politiques en
13     éducation, comme parents et comme membres de leur
14     communauté, vous comprendrez pourquoi Oniric se
15     retrouve dans la vision et le mandat élargi de
16     Radio-Canada dans nos régions.
17  592                  Nous voulons en effet privilégier la
18     formation et l'éducation des jeunes de nos provinces et
19     territoires, particulièrement, dans le domaine des
20     nouveaux médias, en vue d'assurer une relève qui sera à
21     même d'intervenir en région, dans la préparation de
22     nouveaux contenus et la mise en place de technologie
23     répondant aux besoins de nos communautés.
24  593                  Fournir aux jeunes entrepreneurs
25     francophones et francophiles de l'Ouest, des occasions


 1     de travailler et de se perfectionner en français en
 2     nouveaux médias dans un environnement professionnel,
 3     alors que les occasions d'emploi au sein des grandes
 4     institutions d'État deviennent de plus en plus
 5     limitées.
 6  594                  Ce sera aussi pour eux, l'occasion de
 7     développer des produits dans les deux langues
 8     officielles du pays, et ainsi de permettre aux
 9     détenteur de droits d'auteur du domaine culturel de
10     diffuser ses oeuvres dans les nouveaux médias.
11  595                  Monsieur Maurice Morin va continuer.
12  596                  M. MORIN:  Alors, comme Président de
13     notre organisme, je souhaite également me prononcer sur
14     une question faisant partie de vos préoccupations, à
15     savoir, notre vision de l'avenir de la Société
16     Radio-Canada au 21e siècle.  Je dirais également que
17     c'est un point de vue qui est partager par les
18     professionnels qui travaillent avec nous via
19     l'organisme.
20  597                  Pour l'Ouest canadien, certains
21     scénarios réalistes, puis possiblement pessimistes,
22     concernant l'avenir des services de la Société en
23     langues française et anglaise nous projettent tous dans
24     une nouvelle planète dans le prochain siècle.
25  598                  Imaginons un citoyen qui se balade


 1     gentiment à Vancouver et écoute fidèlement sa radio
 2     numérique des nouvelles, son animateur préféré ou les
 3     affaires publiques d'une station située à Denver,
 4     Colorado.
 5  599                  Un univers paradoxal au consommateur
 6     numérique et maître et roi où le communicateur
 7     professionnel canadien est davantage un mercenaire
 8     virtuel qu'un artisan responsable de sa création, où le
 9     français a sa place que si elle représente une valeur
10     rajoutée commerciale ou un nouveau produit dérivé pour
11     les grands réseaux de distribution.
12  600                  Et bien, évidemment, ce qui reste de
13     Radio-Canada ou CBC se retrouve aux archives
14     nationales.  Alors, votre question est particulièrement
15     intéressante parce qu'elle nous révèle une chose.  Ce
16     jeu de prospective nous oblige à se faire une opinion
17     plus précise de ce que l'on pense du courage et de la
18     vision des responsables politiques, face à leur rôle à
19     l'égard de la souveraineté culturelle, par le biais des
20     médias de communication traditionnelle ou nouveaux
21     médias, publiques ou privés, au Canada.
22  601                  On retrouve au coeur de cet
23     engagement politique du gouvernement et des
24     responsables, la place réelle qu'ils entendent accorder
25     à la création et à la promotion du contenu canadien. 


 1     Et si cette idée semble faire souvent l'unanimité, il
 2     faut en suivre les pistes autant dans les studios de
 3     l'industrie culturelle que dans les antichambres
 4     politiques.
 5  602                  Si le présent est garant de notre
 6     avenir, dans les nouveaux médias comme dans
 7     l'audiovisuel, les décisions politiques et financières
 8     provoquent à mon avis, un phénomène désolant qui est en
 9     train de saborder les démarches créatives des artisans
10     et miner l'avenir de la production culturelle
11     canadienne.
12  603                  Pour tout vous dire, on participe à
13     l'imbécilisation du contenu canadien.  Ou pour
14     reprendre une expression anglaise, 'The dumming down of
15     Canadian content'.  C'est la pente glissante du 'fast
16     food' et du 'quick & dirty'.
17  604                  Chose certaine, la quantité de
18     productions actuelles du secteur privé n'est pas
19     nécessairement un signe d'un nouveau bien-être de la
20     santé culturelle de notre pays.
21  605                  La communication numérique offre des
22     possibilités formidables d'expression à la périphérie,
23     en particulier, aux régions, une occasion rêvée de
24     découvrir la richesse de notre patrimoine culturel
25     partout au pays.


 1  606                  Des institutions publiques qui
 2     portent depuis des décennies, un tradition culturelle
 3     et créative unique, comme la Société Radio-Canada,
 4     forge des nouvelles directions, alors qu'elle est
 5     étranglée économiquement, et malgré tout, trouve le
 6     moyen de donner au contenu canadien un nouveau souffle
 7     créateur en région comme dans les grands centres.
 8  607                  Il est donc essentiel pour l'avenir
 9     de Radio-Canada comme pour l'avenir culturel des
10     citoyens que le CRTC exerce son leadership dans
11     l'avenir, en particulier, des nouvelles technologies et
12     de la radio télédiffusion au Canada.
13  608                  Que vous ne perdez pas de vue
14     l'influence que vous exercez dans notre quotidien, que
15     vos décisions affectent la distribution des ressources
16     et des nouveaux revenus en communication et en
17     télécommunications.
18  609                  Puis on sait que le marché est
19     vraiment un marché grandissant, on voit ça, là, à tous
20     les jours quand on travaille dans le domaine, et puis,
21     qu'il y a sans doute énormément de groupes de pression,
22     ou plusieurs groupes de pression, du domaine des
23     télécommunications de la téléphonie, qui voient de
24     nouveaux secteurs s'ouvrir via les nouveaux médias, et
25     qui sont en train de solliciter ou présenter des


 1     arguments, mais qu'au bout du compte, vos décisions
 2     auront des incidences directes sur les enjeux culturel
 3     et politique, et notamment, sur la Société
 4     Radio-Canada.
 5  610                  Alors, l'avenir d'une entreprise, si
 6     on nous demande de vous présenter en une phrase notre
 7     vision de l'avenir d'une entreprise, puisque nous... la
 8     plupart de nos membres travaille dans le secteur privé,
 9     l'avenir d'une entreprise au prochain siècle, qu'elle
10     soit publique ou privée, c'est-à-dire également
11     Radio-Canada, va tenir un enracinement dans le milieu,
12     et à la création de valeurs dans la société.
13  611                  C'est ça qu'est la vision et
14     d'ailleurs, les entrepreneurs du 21e siècle seront
15     peut-être davantage philosophes motivateurs ou éditiens
16     que technocrates et managers.  Et c'est vrai pour le
17     privé comme pour le public.
18  612                  Alors c'est pourquoi cet enracinement
19     de Radio-Canada dans la communauté, et sa présence
20     continue et renforcée dans nos régions sont
21     indispensables si la Société veut baser son
22     intervention telle qu'elle se doit sur une connaissance
23     approfondie de la spécificité, des intérêts, des
24     aspirations des canadiens et des canadiennes, et
25     singulièrement, des francophones de l'Ouest.


 1  613                  Comme dernière remarque personnelle,
 2     je vous dirais que j'ai travaillé, à une occasion, à la
 3     production d'un reportage menant de front production
 4     francophone pour le réseau national et production
 5     anglophone.  Et je peux vous dire, quand il est arrivé
 6     le moment de préparer le traitement... le traitement
 7     qu'on faisait pour présenter notre histoire avec une
 8     perspective franco-canadienne, elle était complètement
 9     différente de celle qu'on présentait pour les anglos ou
10     pour la population anglo-canadienne.
11  614                  Et c'est une partie des difficultés
12     de pouvoir produire dans les deux langues.  Mais je
13     crois qu'à travers, même histoire, un traitement
14     différent, il est possible de présenter une perspective
15     qui reflète un contenu canadien.
16  615                  Alors, nous appuyons donc, pour
17     toutes ces raisons, le renouvellement de la licence de
18     la Société Radio-Canada dans les régions de l'Ouest
19     canadien, dans chacune des régions, et souhaitons
20     particulièrement une poussée, un développement, vers le
21     nord des Territoires, ce qui n'existe pas en français,
22     comme vous le savez.
23  616                  Alors, nous vous remercions également
24     de nous donner l'occasion de présenter notre conclu.
25  617                  LA PRÉSIDENTE:  Merci infiniment.


 1  618                  Pouvez-vous m'expliquer, pour le
 2     dossier public aussi, quel est le mouvement que vous
 3     représentez, parce que je pensais au début que c'était
 4     une compagnie, mais je crois comprendre que c'est
 5     davantage un regroupement.
 6  619                  M. MORIN: Bien, je crois... je pense
 7     que je dois vous dire, on fait partie vraiment d'une
 8     nouvelle culture; Oniric est un organisme à but non
 9     lucratif avec une Charte fédérale, mais de fait aussi,
10     c'est un... c'est un modèle d'affaires pour reprendre
11     un terme, un modèle d'affaires qui permet le réseautage
12     de tout un ensemble de petites et moyennes entreprises
13     qui travaillent dans le domaine des communications.
14  620                  Alors, comme vous avez sûrement eu
15     l'occasion de le constater, créer un bon produit
16     demande plusieurs artisans.  Le fait de pouvoir les
17     réunir, de réunir d'une façon virtuelle une équipe qui
18     va créer un produit de qualité, sans créer une nouvelle
19     entreprise ou créer une entreprise, c'est ce que se
20     donne comme mandat ou c'est une des activités de...
21     principales d'Oniric, et elle le fait à l'échelle de
22     l'Ouest.
23  621                  Alors, des productions que vous aurez
24     l'occasion de voir dans le domaine de l'éducation, de
25     la formation, des communications de langue française


 1     que vous retrouverez sur l'internet, c'est ce qui va se
 2     faire en français, en tout cas, à travers des
 3     initiatives d'Oniric, se fera virtuellement et par du
 4     travail collaboratif à distance.
 5  622                  LA PRÉSIDENTE: Oui, Madame, vous
 6     voulez...
 7  623                  MME GALIBOIS-BARSS: Oui, j'aimerais
 8     simplement additionner, comme vous le savez, en tant
 9     que francophone dans l'Ouest canadien, le vrai
10     momentum, c'est le partenariat.  Et le partenariat dans
11     tous les niveaux, tant au niveau des communications, de
12     la production, ainsi qu'au niveau de l'éducation pour
13     les jeunes qui sont dans le système scolaire.
14  624                  Et pour nous, Radio-Canada a déjà un
15     pied... est une institution dans chacune de ces
16     provinces et territoires, et se doit dans le futur, de
17     continuer à jouer un rôle mais de partenaire des plus
18     actif maintenant que nous avons un système scolaire qui
19     se met sur pied et d'être un modèle et un formateur au
20     participés.
21  625                  Donc, c'est un partenaire primordial
22     en tant qu'institution qui est nouveau peut-être,
23     n'avait pas à jouer ce rôle de partenaire complet avec
24     les communautés, et pour nous, c'est très, très,
25     important que ça se joue dans chacune des régions et


 1     des territoires.
 2  626                  Et c'est cette alliance-là qu'Oniric
 3     fait dans les multimédias.
 4  627                  M. MORIN: Et en fait de résultat ce
 5     qu'on voit, c'est que, évidemment, lorsque des
 6     francophones de l'Ouest, qu'ils soient dans les écoles
 7     francophones ou d'immersion, voulaient avoir accès à un
 8     contenu qui les reflète, dans l'édition traditionnel,
 9     ce n'était pas possible.  Le marché n'y était pas.
10  628                  Maintenant, avec l'arrivée de
11     l'édition électronique, on peut tout d'un coup, mettre
12     toute une production, un patrimoine culturel
13     francophone accessible à des élèves qui sont de
14     l'Ouest, mais également, du Québec ou de la
15     francophonie.
16  629                  LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et une dernière
17     question, pour bien comprendre votre intervention.
18  630                  Vous faîtes votre intervention à
19     partir des licences existantes de Radio-Canada et vous
20     parlez... donc, de prolonger l'action par les set web,
21     etc. et non pas d'entreprendre de nouvelles activités. 
22     C'est bien ce que je comprends.
23  631                  M. MORIN:  Bien, tel que nous le
24     comprenons, il y a une volonté... une volonté d'élargir
25     les activités de Radio-Canada dans le domaine des


 1     nouveaux médias.  Nous appuyons cette initiative.
 2  632                  LA PRÉSIDENTE: D'accord.  Merci
 3     beaucoup.
 4  633                  MS PINSKY:  Mr. Colin Miles is the
 5     next presenter.
 6  634                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Good
 7     afternoon, sir.
 9  635                  MR. MILES:  I am the regional
10     director of the Canadian Music Centre, in British
11     Columbia.  The Canadian Music Centre is an independent
12     non-profit agency which promotes and disseminates
13     Canadian music created by Canadian composers in the
14     concert music field.
15  636                  The organization is the largest and
16     leading organization of its kind in the world. 
17     Canada's composers are creating an important part of
18     Canada's cultural heritage.  I want therefore to speak
19     specifically about CBC radio composers in Canadian
20     contemporary music.
21  637                  The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
22     is a multifaceted corporation which touches all parts
23     of our lives.  It is not simply a broadcaster of news
24     and current events.
25  638                  The CBC is sometimes criticized for


 1     its involvement in the arts, as if the arts were some
 2     marginal activity compared, for example, with sports. 
 3     I would like to draw your attention to figures from
 4     StatsCan for the year 1992.  That year 42 per cent of
 5     Canadians attended at least one play or concert while
 6     31 per cent attended a professional sports event. 
 7     Clearly, the arts are important to the majority of
 8     Canadians and they value the CBC's involvement in the
 9     arts.
10  639                  Private broadcasting as far as
11     Canadian contemporary music is concerned is a waste
12     land with the exceptions of CJRT in Toronto and CKOA in
13     Edmonton.  Private stations ignore the wealth of music
14     composed by Canada's composers of concert music.  It is
15     important to distinguish between commercial
16     broadcasting and public broadcasting.  The function of
17     commercial broadcasting, simply put, is to deliver
18     listeners or viewers to advertisers.
19  640                  Public broadcasting serves the public
20     good.  It can be what we imagine it to be and the CBC
21     and Canadians have been working since the 1930s to
22     imagine, create and develop public broadcasting to
23     represent the highest aspirations of civilization.
24  641                  It has been said we write our
25     destiny, what we do is what we become.  One of the


 1     things we do in Canada is the CBC.  It is what we do. 
 2     It is an important part of living in this place and how
 3     we do it is an example to people all over the world. 
 4     This is as true in this millennium as in the next.
 5  642                  The CBC is a good thing, which is
 6     blindingly obvious to so many people of goodwill as it
 7     is ours and we want it strengthened.  In recent years,
 8     the CBC has been starved for funds and then belittled
 9     for what it is unable to accomplish and for what it
10     does accomplish in spite of the savage cuts.
11  643                  I can see with what dedication, hard
12     work and courage CBC personnel are making miracles
13     happen every day.  You should know, for example, that
14     the concert music division of Radio France has a budget
15     six times that of CBC radio's and they cannot imagine
16     how CBC radio concert music accomplishes so much with
17     so little.
18  644                  When the British composer Gavin
19     Bryers was in Vancouver for the first Vancouver New
20     Music Festival which took place in CBC studios and
21     featured the CBC Vancouver Orchestra playing his music,
22     he publicly commented about the professionalism of the
23     CBC recording staff.  In fact he said, "They could
24     teach the BBC a thing or two."
25  645                  Look at CBC Vancouver orchestra.


 1     Comparable orchestras elsewhere in Canada would require
 2     an administration of four or five people.  Managing
 3     this orchestra is, in fact, one full-time equivalent
 4     position.  The producer even puts out the chairs and
 5     stands.
 6  646                  I am reminded of a study done in
 7     Florida on poverty, its effects and root causes.  It
 8     was a multi- million dollar study, which is sort of
 9     ironic.  At its conclusion, the Florida study
10     determined that the ill effects of poverty can be
11     attributed to a lack of money.  And with CBC radio its
12     few shortcomings can be attributed to a lack of money,
13     to impoverishment, which is an expression of a lack of
14     love and faith and trust on the part of our
15     legislators, bureaucrats a lack of faith in public
16     broadcasting, a lack of faith in the citizenry and the
17     public good.
18  647                  Let us look at composers of concert
19     music in Canada and the CBC.  The CBC is more than a
20     presenter of ready-made cultural products.  It is a
21     patron of the arts and artists, seeking out and
22     identifying young talent, for example, through the CBC
23     young composers competition, showing faith in young
24     composers by commissioning and giving performances of
25     their works not only in live concerts but also over the


 1     airwaves in Canada and abroad.
 2  648                  CBC radio is the main part of the
 3     infrastructure which inspires young people to be
 4     composers and it is essential for them if they are to
 5     pursue their vocation here in Canada.  It is equally
 6     true for composers in mid-career.  I have talked to
 7     hundreds of composers and they affirm the
 8     interdependence of musical life in Canada with the CBC.
 9  649                  The CBC commissions composers to
10     create new works.  I emphasize "commissions" because
11     this is by far the most important part of income for
12     composers.  Performing rights fees, for example, for
13     performers of concerts have fallen by about 90 per cent
14     in the past few years and are only a fraction of
15     European rates.  In fact, Canadian performing rights
16     fees are about 4 per cent of the rates in Sweden, to
17     use the most extreme example.
18  650                  When John Oliver's 11-minute work
19     "Unseen Rain", which CBC had commissioned was performed
20     by Judith Forest and the CBC orchestra in the Orpheum,
21     the composer received performing rights fees of $53. 
22     These ludicrously low fees underline how important
23     commissions are to the livelihood of composers. 
24     Without agencies such as the CBC and the Canada Council
25     for the Arts, composers would give up or move out.  And


 1     could you imagine Glenn Gould without the CBC?
 2  651                  I want to draw your attention to one
 3     of the greatest champions of contemporary music, North
 4     America's last surviving radio orchestra, the CBC Radio
 5     Orchestra.  I asked CBC producers to do this research
 6     for me and they kindly acceded to my request.
 7  652                  The CBC Vancouver orchestra has
 8     broadcast 44 performers of Canadian work since 1962. 
 9     That is one work in four of each of its programs.  In
10     that period, it performed 318 works by 120 composers. 
11     18 per cent of the composers features are from British
12     Columbia and 25 per cent of the works are by British
13     Columbia composers.  Many of the works were
14     commissioned and premiered by the CBC.  I think this is
15     a good balance between a regional and national reality.
16  653                  I did a little study myself of
17     Canadian orchestral repertoire on the CBC.  The
18     Canadian Music Centre is the nation's largest
19     distributor of specialized repertoire and nearly all
20     the examples of Canadian music are in the catalogue
21     including 140 titles from CBC records.  So I analyzed
22     the catalogue of commercially available records of
23     Canadian orchestral repertoire available from the
24     Vancouver office of the Canadian Music Centre.  I found
25     the CBC Vancouver orchestra had performed much more


 1     Canadian repertoire than any other orchestra.  In fact,
 2     it recorded 44 works by 29 composers on 16 CDs.  That
 3     adds up to more than eight hours.  The Montreal and
 4     Vancouver Symphony together do not make up one hour of
 5     recorded Canadian repertoire.  Clearly this radio
 6     orchestra plays a leadership role in the nation.
 7  654                  I mentioned the hundreds of CBC CDs
 8     currently available.  The CBC has also been a partner
 9     with the Canadian Music Centre in producing 62 CDs on
10     the Centre Disk label, a label which, like the CBC
11     label, is a label exclusively devoted to music by
12     Canadian composers and this label, like the CBC label,
13     is much admired nationally and internationally.
14  655                  CBC programming represents the range
15     of Canadian musical activity from music which looks
16     back to the 19th century to music of the avant garde
17     extending the boundaries of the art form.  Music which
18     is readily accessible and music which challenges
19     seasoned listeners of the CBC and CBC radio in
20     particular plays a leadership roll in encouraging
21     orchestras, choirs, chamber ensembles and recitalists
22     to pay attention to creators.
23  656                  The CBC is always building bridges
24     between composers, performers and listeners.  Through
25     access to broadcasts of John Kamara Parker, CBC Choral


 1     Competition, the CBC Young Performers Competition, the
 2     final of the Winnipeg New Music Festival we share in
 3     the triumphs of these artists and we have a sense of
 4     ownership.
 5  657                  When the leading Canadian composer
 6     Harry Sommers died a week ago, at least five different
 7     programs on Radio One and Two paid tribute to him. 
 8     Through CBC radio, we have been united from sea to sea
 9     to sea as we mourn his death.
10  658                  I have been speaking about the CBC as
11     a patron of the Canadian music artists, an organization
12     which discerns excellence, which takes risks and
13     commissions artists, gives composers the wherewithal to
14     support their creative efforts which can then be shared
15     by the nation.  This is what the CBC itself needs, a
16     good patron.
17  659                  A government which will commission
18     the CBC to do its job and give it the tools to get on
19     with it.
20  660                  We frankly have worries that no
21     matter what is said in support of the CBC at these
22     hearings, the fate of the CBC is in the hands of some
23     people who are prepared to do to the CBC what was done
24     to the CNR.  This is particularly true in these times
25     when we have political leaders of the federal and


 1     provincial leaders who are anti-art, who suffer from
 2     historical amnesia and who are bamboozled by the
 3     cynical rhetoric of greedy commercial interests.
 4  661                  I want to finish with a story from
 5     Buddha.  Buddha was once threatened with death by a
 6     bandit.  He asked if the bandit would be good enough to
 7     fullfil his dying wish said and cut off the branch of
 8     that tree.  One slash of the sword and it was done. 
 9     "What now?" asked the bandit.  "Put it back again,"
10     said Buddha.  "You must be crazy to think that anyone
11     can do that."  "On the contrary, it is you who are
12     crazy to think that you are mighty because you can
13     wound and destroy; that is the task of children.  The
14     mighty know how to create and heal."
15  662                  I urge the CRTC bureaucrats and
16     parliamentarians to use their might to create and heal
17     the CBC.
18  663                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
19     you, Mr. Miles.
20  664                  MS PINSKY:  Mr. Phillip Keatley.
22  665                  MR. KEATLEY:  Yes, thank you.  I am a
23     creature of the CBC.  I spent 30 years in the
24     corporation and mainly as a drama producer.  I
25     worked -- I have to tell you these things because it is


 1     my perspective on the one point that I am going to try
 2     to make about regionalism later.
 3  666                  I helped found the drama department
 4     and in television here, the first one in English
 5     outside of Toronto.  Later, I was head of national
 6     production, training people like producers and
 7     directors and news readers in various ways in Toronto. 
 8     And the last six years that I spent at the CBC was as
 9     the western head of development of ideas mainly, again,
10     in drama from Winnipeg west to here.
11  667                  In 1990, the cuts at the CBC had
12     begun in earnest.  They had begun going on already for
13     about five or six years but in earnest they really were
14     striking home and I decided if I was going to work in
15     Canadian television production I had to leave the
16     Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.
17  668                  At that point, I founded a small film
18     company here and became an independent producer with my
19     daughter as my partner.  And she has now taken the
20     company over and we are doing a series, another cop
21     show called "The Cold Squad", not for the CBC, but for
22     CTV at this point.
23  669                  I have seen it as a result from both
24     sides as to how the production community in Canada
25     works in the financing side and the production side,


 1     the politics of it, the mumbo jumbo of it.  But I think
 2     that the CBC truly is at a cross roads this time.
 3  670                  I do not believe that there are outs
 4     as far as major production is concerned.  I think that
 5     CBC is being driven out of all kinds of production and
 6     will simply be a carrier in one form or another unless
 7     a new decision is made about what we as a people want
 8     of this corporation.
 9  671                  The question that I wanted to speak
10     to today is really about how well does CBC serve the
11     public on a regional as well as on a national level.
12  672                  I do not think there is any
13     difference between them and I think one of the great
14     mistakes is to think about it as national and regional. 
15     It is central and regional is our problem.  There are
16     two forces in broadcasting as in many other things in
17     our cultural life in Canada.  They naturally drive
18     toward the centre, the centre of excellence, the centre
19     of contact, the centre of money, the centre of various
20     things that one needs whether one is in the arts or
21     manufacturing or whatever.
22  673                  And that centralization is enormous
23     when we are in a huge country with a small population
24     and under the forces of globalization.  But,
25     unfortunately, unlike a lot of other things in the


 1     arts, and I include the art of broadcasting whether a
 2     newscaster or an actor or a writer or a musician,
 3     unfortunately when you come to the arts, it depends on
 4     the local, it depends on the regional, it depends on
 5     the perverse, totally personal things that make one
 6     person have an insight that is worth recording and
 7     reporting to someone else or most of all for me, the
 8     yarns, the stories that without answering the questions
 9     that a lot of newscasts try to answer ask questions
10     that are not answerable in that form and make us
11     consider ourselves in a larger sense.
12  674                  I believe that is where we are going
13     to lose if we look at television as simply an
14     entertainment that can be allowed to go on to the
15     multiple channel universe and think that if we preserve
16     CBC radio we will have somehow saved the day.  We will
17     not.  Television is unfortunately still an activity
18     that more children watch than watch the school teacher
19     in school.  It has an enormous influence and will
20     continue to have.  And if we do not use it, someone
21     else is going to.
22  675                  What is happening in Canada right now
23     is that there is another force that is really moving
24     against the CBC in a very specific way.  It is not a
25     force of evil at all, it is just a different force.  It


 1     is the fact that in trying to find a different way that
 2     could break some of the gridlock of the CBC 10 or 15
 3     years ago, CRTC and Telefilm Canada and various other
 4     organizations said let us try and give the control to
 5     not just the hierarchy, let us take an independent
 6     producer with an idea, a creator who will work on the
 7     idea side, let us take a broadcaster who has to accept
 8     that idea and put the forces of production and money
 9     behind it, which was the CBC or CTV or whoever else it
10     might be, and let us take public money from places like
11     Telefilm and put it into, lever it into existence so
12     that we will have control in three directions but we
13     will have nobody who grinds it into the mud.
14  676                  And in order to make that happen, the
15     new organizations encouraged with money and time and
16     lots of other things, the coming into existence of some
17     production companies and the first wave of those
18     production companies have been very successful.
19  677                  Oh, there has been lots of drop outs,
20     but when you look at Alliance Atlantis, when you --
21     well, they are the biggest one at the present time.
22  678                  When you look at companies like that
23     that have existed only for 15 years or slightly more,
24     we see companies that are now on the public markets,
25     publicly financed, that is fanned from the stock


 1     markets and we see them now becoming responsible to
 2     their shareholders and responsible to the balance sheet
 3     for what they will move on to next.  And in that we are
 4     also seeing that they naturally have both
 5     responsibilities and loyalties outside of the Canadian
 6     audience that they were created to serve.
 7  679                  Because, in globalization, those
 8     companies have to try to find the sale to the United
 9     States, to Britain, to south-east Asia, to wherever
10     else they can.  Believe me, as a producer of a thing
11     called "The Cold Squad", we have done a lot of work on
12     trying to find the ways that we can keep it Canadian
13     and still sell it in Hong Kong.
14  680                  Now, at a certain point, you look at
15     that and you say, "I think about between 60 and maybe
16     75 per cent of the money here is Canadian public
17     money."  But it is no longer being controlled by the
18     Canadian public.  It is, in fact, going to make
19     programs that will move us into the globalization world
20     and quite rightly so.  This program is a successful
21     application of marketplace economics.  And it is given
22     a lot work to artists of all kinds and it has created
23     in Vancouver, for instance, a community of film crews
24     and the ancillary things of post-production and so on
25     that build around the film business.  It has meant that


 1     the Americans have come to our doors in great numbers. 
 2     By the way, we are also giving the Americans a little
 3     pat on the taxes so they are in for, what is it, 11 per
 4     cent of their budgets that they can save by doing it in
 5     Canada.  So we are in the global market.
 6  681                  Now, we have set up that hierarchy
 7     and now I think it is time to make the choice again. 
 8     CBC has been swung back and forth between regionalism
 9     and centralism, nationalism, and the individual voice
10     of the artist for all of the years, it is now over 40
11     that I have been around, in the business and it is not
12     going to change.  There will be meetings like this in
13     five years and ten.  We hope there will be.  It is time
14     to swing back.
15  682                  There is only one way that you can
16     re-establish the CBC as an energetic, ongoing
17     organization that will be concerned about with the
18     arts, with the news, with its feet in the ground where
19     it belongs and that is you have to have a regional
20     structure.
21  683                  When I started at the CBC in 1956,
22     God help me, there was a totally regional structure
23     under a national umbrella.  There were individual
24     budgets that were controlled within each region.  The
25     decisions were made by a kind of poker game as to who


 1     had the most money and who had the most air time and
 2     who could make the programs for each other.  That
 3     disappeared as the crunch, the first crunch came in
 4     1968, I remember.  As the crunch happened that the
 5     money was no longer enough and it has continued and
 6     continued and continued.
 7  684                  And when I hear people around the
 8     table talking today about, you know, is this the last
 9     crunch, yes, it is.  I do not think there is the money
10     there to do the programs except by hiring on all -- now
11     I am only talking about television -- by hiring on all
12     of those new production companies that were formed 15
13     years ago and having them be co-producers with the CBC
14     of all of those programs that up until now have been
15     its own.
16  685                  And I do not think I want that.  I
17     mean I -- I just do not want to see that.  I want to go
18     back to the regionalism thing that I believe is the way
19     that Canada works.  We are not a centralized state in
20     the way that the industry and in the United States
21     prides itself on not needing any kind of so called
22     public support for broadcasting and industry that can
23     stand on its own two feet.  We are not an industry.  We
24     happen to look like one, there is lots of money made in
25     it, but we are the root and branch of Canadian culture. 


 1     And we are not going to get the money to support that
 2     tree by advertising or by any of the other gimmickery
 3     that we have been trying in the last few years.
 4  686                  I never thought I would be one of the
 5     people who believed this, but in the last five years I
 6     have come to the conclusion that CBC should be taken
 7     out of commercials totally.  If CBC drama dies as a
 8     result, so be it, it is going to look better dead than
 9     alive.  If it means that television is going to find
10     new ways to tell stories, then so be it.  That will be
11     better for us.
12  687                  I do not think that we can go on as a
13     supposed national organization that does not exist
14     nationally except in one or two major centres.
15  688                  How can it work?  There is one region
16     in Canada that managed to survive as an autonomus
17     region under national control.  It is the French
18     language service, the radio Canada in Quebec where
19     those are still basically the rules.  I am only talking
20     about Quebec, I am not talking about the network, I am
21     talking about the region.  And the strength of that
22     organization there, its contact with its own audience,
23     its contact for its reason for being is a wonder to
24     behold when you come from other parts of Canada.  The
25     great shame is that I have not heard a French story on


 1     English television for a long time, but that is part of
 2     our two solitudes rather than part of this business of
 3     regionalism versus nationalism.
 4  689                  So give me back my regions, let me
 5     tell the stories from here, let me go and gather the
 6     stories from other places and see that they get on the
 7     air.  And give us the money as if I still belonged to
 8     the CBC, but I said I am a creature of it.
 9  690                  Give it the money in the same way
10     that we give money to health, in the same way that we
11     give money to education.  And any other national
12     institution that guarantees that this is going to
13     continue to be a country.  Because in the world of
14     globalization when children are going to continue to
15     watch television more than go to school, you better
16     believe that this is the thing that counts.  Thank you.
17  691                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
18     you very much, Mr. Keatley.  I would propose we take a
19     coffee break and we will be back in ten minutes.
20     --- Recess at 1500 / Suspension à 1500
21     --- Upon resuming at 1520 / Reprise à 1520
22  692                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  We
23     will now pursue the consultation and I would ask Ms
24     Pinsky to call the next intervenor, please.
25  693                  MS PINSKY:  Mr. Baxter is the next


 1     presenter.
 3  694                  MR. BAXTER:  Good afternoon, ladies
 4     and gentlemen.  I have heard a lot of people speak for
 5     and against the CBC and they have been quite eloquent. 
 6     They have really addressed their concerns and quite
 7     passionately so.  And that is one of the reasons it
 8     prompts me to come all the way from the Hope area.  I
 9     am going to shoot from the hip, no text.  I think
10     common sense should prevail here.
11  695                  I think CBC has all the right reasons
12     or some of the right reasons, I should say, for being
13     in the air.  I think it is something we need and it is
14     important but like anything else when it is out of
15     control, just as another gentleman said today, it is
16     going to do more harm than good unless it is in
17     control, unless it is helping people.  I recently ran
18     into a situation with the CBC where I found
19     accountability to be a problem.
20  696                  Accountability to me is being able to
21     face someone and account to them why you have done
22     something or why something has happened or why you have
23     taken a stand or something.  And the way I see it,
24     things should be pretty straightforward.
25  697                  I have asked the CBC, French in


 1     particular, but we have asked the CBC to respond  to a
 2     couple of issues that we felt were important and at no
 3     time, and I hope this is on record to the max did the
 4     CBC ever try to contact us and give us any input.  We
 5     have tried on several levels, you know, the e-mail, the
 6     phone, the fax, we have tried personal contact. 
 7     Frankly, I have been avoided, I have been dodged.  You
 8     know, I am not a bad guy, I am a real nice guy until
 9     you tick me off and right now CBC has me a little
10     irritated.  It comes down to accountability.
11  698                  When I run a business I have an
12     employee that does not function for me, I let them go.
13  699                  When I am disappointed with
14     something, I give someone few chances because it is
15     important, sometimes you do not see their finest
16     qualities until they are under pressure or until they
17     have had a chance to get to know what they are to go.
18  700                  I think CBC has had a lot of chances,
19     a lot of chances.  I will say it again, I think CBC is
20     important.  But if CBC does not smarten up, the CBC
21     should let go.  It is going to do more damage
22     floundering than it is if it has just gone away.  Third
23     time, I do not want it to go away, but I do not want it
24     out of control and it is out of control.
25  701                  I am one simple individual taxpayer


 1     who has tried to make some phone calls, who has tried
 2     to do some faxes, who has tried to do some e-mails and
 3     more than made my effort as far as a commitment to be
 4     in touch with the CBC and try to understand their point
 5     of view.  When there is no dialogue, when you are not
 6     listening to me and my taxes with paying what you are
 7     doing, you are history.
 8  702                  There were five children that were
 9     basically defamed.  They gave their best in a situation
10     that the CBC wanted their interview for, and they gave
11     their best.  Their academic skills speak for
12     themselves, academic skills that are assigned by B.C.
13     and they have exceeded but none of these skills were
14     recognized.  These children were given an interview and
15     they sat back as though their interview went to
16     production.  They watched it in horror when they
17     realized that they had been scammed.
18  703                  I have asked the CBC to look into
19     this and nobody is returning the phone calls.  That has
20     got to tell you something, that has got to red flag
21     something.  Even if I had only called once instead of
22     e-mails and faxes and calls, even if it had just been a
23     voice mail, someone should at least be in control of
24     their office at least to be able to return it and find
25     out what is going on.


 1  704                  This immunity that some production
 2     staff within CBC seem to have, has gone too far, it is
 3     enough.  Forget the national perspective, forget the
 4     regional perspective.  You know, I am not talking about
 5     cultural diversification, I am talking about
 6     accountability.  When you do not spend my money right,
 7     I fire you.  When you do not produce or I should say
 8     when you are not concise, then I reprimand you, but if
 9     you are concise forever, I get rid of you.
10  705                  I would not be this irritated if I
11     had not seen it a few times.  We have heard people
12     today, same thing, they are talking about different
13     areas of accountability.  So I think it is important. 
14     Everyone realizes, you know, I am asking for the CBC to
15     look into this, I am hoping, like I say, public record
16     to look into this.
17  706                  They owe five children an apology. 
18     They just got a real heck of a lesson in biased
19     journalism in their front yard and I am not impressed. 
20     I appreciate your time and I thank you for listening.
21  707                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
22     you.
23  708                  MS PINSKY: La prochaine intervenante
24     est madame Diane Côté.
25  709                  LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonjour, madame Côté.


 2  710                  MME CÈTÉ: Pardon.
 3  711                  Alors, je suis la présidente de la
 4     Fédération des francophones de la Colombie-Britannique. 
 5     La Fédération est le porte-parole de la troisième plus
 6     grande communauté francophone hors-Québec, après
 7     l'Ontario et le Nouveau-Brunswick.
 8  712                  La Fédération...
 9  713                  LA PRÉSIDENTE: J'aurais pensé que
10     c'était le Manitoba.
11  714                  MME CÈTÉ: Oui, je vous apprends une
12     nouvelle?
13  715                  LA PRÉSIDENTE: Oui, c'est ça.
14     --- Laughter / Rires
15  716                  MME CÈTÉ: Alors, la Fédération
16     regroupe trente-trois associations réparties sur
17     l'ensemble du territoire de la Province et oeuvrant
18     dans plusieurs domaines du développement de la
19     communauté francophone, comme, par exemple,
20     l'éducation, l'économie, la culture, les services
21     sociaux et les communications.  Elle a été fondée en
22     1945 et a fêté en 1995, son cinquantième anniversaire
23     d'existence.
24  717                  Notre présence ici aujourd'hui dans
25     le cadre des présentes consultations publiques


 1     s'inscrit à l'intérieur du mandat de notre fédération. 
 2     Celui-ci consiste à promouvoir, représenter et défendre
 3     les intérêts des francophones de la
 4     Colombie-Britannique, et à protéger leur patrimoine
 5     linguistique et culturel.
 6  718                  Alors, en guise d'introduction,
 7     permettez-moi de rappeler que la communauté francophone
 8     d'ici consiste en quelque 61 000 personnes dont le
 9     français est la langue maternelle.
10  719                  Notre communauté a ceci de
11     particulier, par contre.  Elle n'est pas concentrée
12     géographiquement dans une région donnée, comme c'est le
13     cas dans d'autres provinces.  Mais elle est présente
14     sur l'ensemble du territoire provincial.  Et elle est
15     plutôt regroupée en un ensemble de petites
16     collectivités locales.
17  720                  Cette dispersion géographique impose
18     un défi particulier à Radio-Canada.  Dans l'exercice,
19     en Colombie-Britannique, d'un aspect important de sa
20     mission qui consiste à représenter la diversité
21     régionale et culturelle du Canada, et à présenter
22     chaque région à elle-même ainsi qu'au reste du pays.
23  721                  Pour les nombreuses petites
24     collectivités francophones de la Province, Radio-Canada
25     représente un lien vital, parfois le seul lien qui soit


 1     en mesure de les relier entre elles.
 2  722                  Alors, de quelle façon la SRC
 3     dessert-elle la communauté francophone de la
 4     Colombie-Britannique ?  Les francophones d'ici ont-ils
 5     un accès à une radio et à une télévision d'envergure
 6     nationale qui reflète adéquatement la réalité à
 7     l'échelle locale?
 8  723                  Nous allons répondre à cette question
 9     en deux temps.  Nous soulèverons d'abord les problèmes
10     d'accès au service de la SRC, puis nous exposerons les
11     bénéfices limités pour la communauté francophone de la
12     Colombie-Britannique de certains choix de
13     programmation.
14  724                  Alors, le problème d'accès au signal
15     de la radio et de la télévision de Radio-Canada, c'est
16     un secret de polichinelle, en Colombie-Britannique,
17     tous les résidents n'ont pas accès au signal radio et
18     télé de la SRC.  Plus de vingt ans après l'entrée en
19     onde de la télévision francophone dans cette province,
20     une trentaine de localités de la province n'ont
21     toujours pas accès à la télévision et à la radio de la
22     SRC.
23  725                  Nous venons d'apprendre que la SRC,
24     par contre, compte installer un emetteur à Victoria, ce
25     qui devrait améliorer les conditions de réception sur


 1     l'île de Vancouver, à l'été 2 000.  Cependant, rien ne
 2     laisse entrevoir une amélioration pour le reste du
 3     territoire de la province où le signal radio et télé
 4     n'est toujours pas accessible.
 5  726                  En d'autres termes, une partie
 6     importante du territoire où vivent les francophones
 7     dont d'ailleurs le nombre est assez élevé pour
 8     permettre le regroupement en association, et la
 9     création d'écoles de langue française, est carrément
10     exclu de la diffusion de la radio et de la télévision
11     de la SRC, et elle le demeurera.
12  727                  Plusieurs usagés qui n'ont pas accès
13     au signal de la télévision choisissent de payer un
14     service privé et doivent verser des frais d'abonnement
15     à un cablo.  Ils reçoivent alors le signal de la SRC en
16     direct de Montréal.  Par contre, ça donne lieu à des
17     situations déplorables, comme la diffusion d'émissions
18     pour enfants pendant les heures de classe, ou encore la
19     diffusion d'émissions de fin de soirée aux heures de
20     grande écoute.
21  728                  Les nombreuses localités qui sont
22     privées des services publics de la SRC, il faut le
23     rappeler, contribuent elles aussi aux fonds publics qui
24     financent la Société.
25  729                  En définitive, au plan de la


 1     diffusion de ses émissions de radio et de télévision,
 2     la SRC ne dessert pas adéquatement l'ensemble de la
 3     clientèle de la Province.  Plus spécifiquement, elle
 4     n'assure pas comme elle le devrait le lien vital entre
 5     les communautés francophones, puisqu'elle n'est pas
 6     présente sur l'ensemble du territoire.
 7  730                  Cette lacune importante contribue à
 8     l'isolement des collectivités francophones au plan
 9     linguistique, culturel et politique, et les privent
10     d'un outil essentiel au développement de leur sens
11     d'identité et à leur épanouissement à l'intérieur de
12     cette province.
13  731                  Par conséquent, la Fédération
14     recommande que la SRC s'acquitte de ses
15     responsabilités, et installe les outils technologiques
16     nécessaires à une diffusion des signaux de la radio et
17     de la télévision sur la totalité du territoire de la
18     province de la Colombie-Britannique.
19  732                  Deuxième question, le choix de
20     programmation.  La communauté francophone est
21     relativement choyée en terme de couverture de la vie
22     culturelle en Colombie-Britannique.  Cette dernière
23     occupe une bonne place dans la programmation du "Ce
24     soir" en Colombie-Britannique.  
25  733                  De plus, l'excellente production


 1     "Courant du Pacifique", diffusé par CBUFT les
 2     dimanches, et repris en lundi... le lundi, dédie chaque
 3     année cinquante-deux émissions d'une demi-heure à la
 4     vie culturelle de la Province.  Elle s'est d'ailleurs
 5     méritée, en 1997, le prix 'Rodgers Communications',
 6     pour la couverture des arts.
 7  734                  La communauté francophone,
 8     c'est-à-dire celle qui a accès au signal, bénéficie
 9     également d'une bonne couverture en français des
10     nouvelles internationales, nationales et provinciales,
11     grâce notamment, à la production locale du "Ce soir" en
12     Colombie-Britannique, à l'intérieur d'un réseau
13     d'envergure nationale.
14  735                  Les activités de la communauté
15     francophone sont, de plus, diffusées adéquatement,
16     grâce notamment, à la production de radio de "Micro
17     midi", qui informe sur les événements organisés par les
18     associations francophones régionales et provinciales,
19     ainsi qu'à la production locale de "CBUF, Bonjour" et
20     au carnet des activités communautaires, "Le lien".
21  736                  Peut-on pour autant affirmer que les
22     francophones d'ici ont un accès à une radio et à une
23     télévision qui reflètent adéquatement la réalité à
24     l'échelle locale.
25  737                  En Colombie-Britannique, la


 1     couverture journalistique des événements nationaux et
 2     provinciaux qui ont des répercussions politiques ou
 3     sociales pour la communauté francophone est en
 4     concurrence directe avec la couverture journalistique
 5     d'autres événements locaux.
 6  738                  En d'autres termes, il semble que
 7     l'on ne se soit pas donné pour mission de connaître et
 8     de faire connaître les répercussions pour les
 9     francophones de la Province, qui sont, rappelons-le, le
10     public cible de la SRC, des événements nationaux et
11     provinciaux qui les affectent directement au niveau
12     politique et social.
13  739                  À l'occasion, on présente le point de
14     vue de la communauté francophone, à l'intérieur d'un
15     reportage au bulletin de nouvelles, mais on présente
16     rarement un reportage ou une entrevue de fond qui
17     permette de vraiment saisir les enjeux pour la
18     communauté francophone, d'une décision majeure au
19     niveau national ou provincial.
20  740                  Pensons notamment à un cas récent où
21     les collectivités francophones de la Province n'ont pas
22     eu les éléments nécessaires pour saisir l'implication
23     de la décision du gouvernement fédéral, d'augmenter de
24     70 millions de dollars, le budget consacré au Programme
25     des langues officielles.  Pensons à la création de la


 1     gestion scolaire ici en Colombie-Britannique et au
 2     reportage qui a eu lieu.
 3  741                  Par conséquent, la Fédération
 4     recommande que la programmation locale de la SRC
 5     reflète une préoccupation éditoriale plus grande visant
 6     à donner aux collectivités francophones d'ici, les
 7     éléments nécessaires pour comprendre comment les
 8     événements d'envergure nationale et provinciale se
 9     répercutent sur elle au niveau social et politique.
10  742                  En guise de conclusion, rappelons
11     qu'il n'y a pas de radio-diffuseur francophone privé
12     hors-Québec... hors du Québec, et que Radio-Canada est
13     le seul réseau national de télévision de langue
14     française au Canada.
15  743                  Compte tenu de cette situation, nous
16     sommes conscients que les attentes du public et
17     d'organismes comme le nôtre sont très élevées, et que
18     les ressources et les moyens dont la Société dispose
19     sont limités après les coupures sévères de ces
20     dernières années.
21  744                  Néanmoins, les francophones de la
22     Colombie-Britannique ont besoin de cet outil de
23     communication essentiel qu'est la SRC, et la vigilance
24     du public ne peut que contribuer à son amélioration
25     constante au fil des ans.


 1  745                  Merci.
 2  746                  LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci beaucoup, madame
 3     Côté.  Merci de votre contribution.
 4  747                  MME PINSKY: Madame Friolet, est-ce
 5     que vous avez une présentation séparée ?
 6  748                  MME BERNIER: J'ai... bon, je suis
 7     Nicole Bernier, j'avais fait les changements avec
 8     les...
 9  749                  Donc, Nicole Bernier, responsable des
10     communications à la Fédération des francophones.
11  750                  Il y a un aspect que... mon
12     intervention va être très brève, j'aimerais seulement
13     ajouter un aspect à ce qui vient d'être présenté par
14     notre présidente, madame Côté.
15  751                  On sait que dans la mission de
16     Radio-Canada, l'un des aspects de la mission est de
17     représenter la diversité locale et régionale à
18     elle-même, mais aussi, à l'ensemble du réseau national,
19     à l'ensemble canadien.
20  752                  Et l'aspect que je soulève est un peu
21     le corollaire d'un aspect qui vient d'être soulevé par
22     madame Côté, qui est la couverture, l'absence ou la...
23     comment on pourrait dire, l'importance trop minime
24     accordée à la couverture des événements de la
25     communauté francophone hors-Québec ou ici, en


 1     Colombie-Britannique, a des répercussions aussi sur le
 2     réseau national.  On sait qu'il y a... et c'est vrai
 3     pour la Colombie-Britannique mais aussi pour la
 4     communauté francophone hors-Québec.
 5  753                  On sait qu'il y a un million de
 6     francophones en dehors du Québec et la couverture, que
 7     ce soit culturel, social, artistique, politique, des
 8     événements qui touchent de près la communauté, les
 9     enjeux qui la concernent au niveau national, est
10     relativement faible et c'est en partie un problème, je
11     crois, dérivé de la couverture ici, parfois trop faible
12     de ce qui touche de près la communauté.
13  754                  On donnait, par exemple, le cas des
14     ententes... du renouvellement des ententes de
15     financement de la communauté francophone qui, bon, il y
16     a des négociations qui se déroulent ou qui s'amorcent
17     présentement.
18  755                  Souvent, les éléments nécessaires à
19     la compréhension des enjeux ne sont pas... ne sont pas
20     relevés par ici, au niveau régional, alors c'est
21     difficle et presque impossible au niveau national, de
22     présenter un portrait suffisant, adéquat, réaliste des
23     communautés francophones hors-Québec.
24  756                  Alors, il faut le rappeler, on l'a
25     dit, on est la troisième plus grande communauté


 1     francophone au Canada, et on parle très, très, peu
 2     souvent de nous sur le réseau national.
 3  757                  Et, en conséquence, la Fédération des
 4     francophones recommande... fait une troisième
 5     recommandation, c'est que la programmation du réseau
 6     national de la SRC accorde une place plus grande à la
 7     réalité sociale, culturelle, économique et politique de
 8     la communauté francophone hors-Québec.
 9  758                  Merci beaucoup.
10  759                  LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci beaucoup, madame
11     Bernier.  Merci.
12  760                  MS PINSKY:  Mr. Patrick Brown is the
13     next presenter.
15  761                  MR. BROWN:  Thank you very much for
16     the opportunity to speak this afternoon.  As a
17     long-time CBC listener and viewer and also someone who
18     lives on an island and does not have cable, I would
19     like to express some ideas on the future role of the
20     CBC and some of its services.
21  762                  Since it was started, the
22     contribution has reflected the changing vision of this
23     nation, our national public broadcasting system ranks
24     with the transcontinental railway, our ocean programs
25     and our social policy as an idea of an expression of


 1     Canada.
 2  763                  As we enter the 21st century, our
 3     communications and media more than ever before will
 4     define the national dream.  Canada is even now becoming
 5     what might be termed a virtual nation.  Communications
 6     technology is evolving rapidly.  It gives us the means
 7     to convey more information with more choices to more
 8     Canadians.  The CBC must grasp this opportunity.
 9  764                  In the 21st century, Canadians have a
10     right to full economic opportunity, to the highest
11     quality of life and to active and informed citizenship.
12  765                  Each of these opportunities depends
13     on information.  Access to this information is a right
14     of citizens.  It has always been so.  But in the 21st
15     century it is vital.  That is why we need the CBC.  The
16     CBC can and should provide a public information
17     infrastructure to serve three vital roles.
18  766                  The first for our economy, the second
19     for our culture and the third for our governance.  That
20     is not arranged.  These three are equally important. 
21     Let me tell you what I mean.
22  767                  For economic success, Canadians and
23     their enterprises must have accurate information on
24     events, trends and situations locally, nationally, and
25     throughout the world.  A gathering and presentation of


 1     this information by Canadians and for Canadians can
 2     best be done by a national public broadcasting system. 
 3     Done well, it can provide an unparalleled economic
 4     advantage for Canadians.  What I am talking about here
 5     is the CBC as an essential part of our economic
 6     infrastructure.
 7  768                  Secondly, our culture defines us as
 8     Canadians.  This includes everything from hockey to
 9     symphonies, art to satire, from mountains to food.  It
10     is an incredibly rich and varied culture.  Its
11     expression and communication is a traditional CBC role. 
12     To be a nation we must all understand and evaluate. 
13     That is the second.
14  769                  The third for the governance of our
15     country, that national provincial and local levels,
16     Canadians must have accurate, fair and timely
17     information.  The CBC has always played a role as a
18     trustee of our nationhood.  The informed citizen is the
19     basic requirement for successful government more so now
20     than ever before.  Providing access to this information
21     is a prime function of any 21st century nation and, in
22     fact, of the 21st century CBC.
23  770                  I offer this as a vision.  The CBC
24     has the public information infrastructure of our
25     virtual nation.


 1  771                  It may seem a long way from today's
 2     beleaguered strike-prone under-funded CBC to such a
 3     grand vision, but it is not.  There are certainly some
 4     essential requirements.  But they are not new.  Today's
 5     CBC is an excellent foundation.  First, the
 6     requirements.  They are three:  Integrity, independence
 7     and responsibility.
 8  772                  Integrity.  The CBC has to be
 9     trustworthy.  It must be fair, professional and
10     consistent in its approach.  It must be truthful.  That
11     truth must be clearly separated from opinion and the
12     CBC must provide the opportunity to broadcast a wide
13     range of opinions.  Clearly, this kind of integrity
14     requires independence.  The CBC must be clearly and
15     demonstrably independent of the government of the day. 
16     It must be publicly funded, independent of annual
17     budget cycles.  It must be able to plan effectively
18     over the long term.  This is the only way it can
19     attract the best people that Canada has to offer and
20     provide them with a security to do their best work.
21  773                  Equally clearly, this independence
22     cannot be maintained without responsibility.  It will
23     require the maintenance of the highest professional
24     standards, particularly in news reporting.  It will
25     require independent oversight of those standards of its


 1     stewardship of the public interest and of its finances.
 2  774                  It is time the CBC's mandate returned
 3     to reflecting the long-term interest of Canadians and
 4     of our nation.  This would clearly differentiate it
 5     from the commercial broadcasting services.  I would
 6     emphasize that.  That is the differentiation we expect,
 7     that is the differentiation we need, that is the
 8     differentiation that the CBC can produce.
 9  775                  But for many years, the CBC has
10     suffered from the conflict between its objectives of
11     journalistic integrity and independence and an
12     organization structure designed to maintain government
13     control.  It is time to end that conflict, it is time
14     to free the CBC from government control.
15  776                  With respect to CBC services, here is
16     my wish list for the future and, remember, I live on an
17     island, I am not on cable and so I pluck my programming
18     out of the air with a little antenna.
19  777                  CBC radio is cheap.  It is efficient
20     and you do not have to watch it, you can do something
21     else while you are listening.
22  778                  I look for a return to radio programs
23     and away from what I would recall background radio. 
24     Let us have more information programming.  I like the
25     current split between Radio One and Radio Two.  Without


 1     Radio One, we would all be a lot less informed, without
 2     Radio Two, where would I go for decent music?
 3  779                  CBC television.  Concentrate on news,
 4     information, education and Canadian entertainment.  It
 5     is really time to rethink the decision to have
 6     commercials, particularly since there are not enough to
 7     have the time allowed.  Too much time is spent taken up
 8     with promotional time for CBC programs.  I would rather
 9     have a shorter broadcast day.
10  780                  CBC Newsworld.  I would like to see
11     some of Newsworld's content shifted to the main
12     network, CBC TV, and some shifted to Internet
13     broadcasting.  It is good stuff, but it is not
14     accessible enough.  Newsworld could move to becoming a
15     national forum on a more specialized issue with
16     discussion in greater depths and more time devoted to
17     each topic, the high end of educational broadcasting. 
18     This would lead to a clear differentiation from CBC
19     television and from private stations and, again, do not
20     waste my time and the CBC's effort on spot commercials.
21  781                  CBC Internet.  The use of the
22     Internet is already changing broadcasting.  I look for
23     continuing expansion of this function both as text and
24     as radio and television on demand.  It should be the
25     library and archive backup for all news and educational


 1     services and we have had in the past years some very
 2     good examples of that on the CBC's website.  I see
 3     Internet transmission as being an alternative or
 4     supplement to conventional broadcasting, making radio
 5     and television programs available whenever the audience
 6     wants them.
 7  782                  CBC international radio as a vital
 8     part of our nation's communications with the rest of
 9     the world, should be broadcasting by every means
10     possible, short wave, Internet and programs on other
11     country's radio.
12  783                  To summarize, the CBC should become
13     in the 21st century Canada's public information
14     infrastructure.  In order to do this, it must be freed
15     from the control of the government of the day and have
16     independent, long-term financing.
17  784                  Now, just to close, in 50 years of
18     CBC listening, it seems to me that the CBC's finest
19     hours have demonstrated the integrity and independence
20     and responsibility of what of which I speak.  But there
21     are two other essential qualities which have given the
22     service its essential character, these are curiosity
23     and intellectual leadership.  Curiosity leads to new
24     information.  I want the CBC to explain to me every day
25     something that I hadn't thought about before.  It can


 1     do that, it has done that, it should do that in the
 2     future.
 3  785                  Intellectual leadership leads to new
 4     insights and new understanding of what that information
 5     means to us.  I want the CBC to bring me Canada's and
 6     the world's best thinking.  I am looking for a CBC that
 7     will, more than ever before, make a difference to
 8     Canadians.  With these qualities, tomorrow's CBC can be
 9     the heart of our virtual Canada.
10  786                  In the words of the 21st century,
11     make it so.  Thank you.
12     --- Applause / Applaudissements
13  787                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
14     you very much, Mr. Brown.
15  788                  MS PINSKY:  The next presenter is Ms
16     Sue Truscott.
18  789                  MS TRUSCOTT:  Good afternoon, every
19     one.  We have been hearing many diverse opinions this
20     afternoon.  We have heard from many groups, many
21     individuals and I want to point out to you that each
22     and every one of these people is a Canadian.  They are
23     part of the vast diversity that makes up this nation of
24     ours.  CBC is also a part of the vast diversity that
25     makes up this nation.  And, as such, it must seek to


 1     represent each and every one of these Canadians, each
 2     and every segment of our society, each and every level
 3     of diversity.  This is no doubt a very difficult task
 4     to do, one which CBC must at times find difficult to
 5     filter through their own grids because every one of us
 6     has a personal grid through which we filter
 7     information.  However, if CBC is our national
 8     telecommunications organization, if it is funded with
 9     our taxpayer dollars, this is something that is vitally
10     necessary for it to do.
11  790                  Now, CBC is not a member of the
12     Canadian Broadcast Standards Association and while I
13     was at first somewhat surprised to find that out, it
14     was explained to me that the Canadian broadcast
15     standards is an association of private broadcasters who
16     way back when they formed the organization they wanted
17     to jump the gun on being regulated and they wanted to
18     self-regulate.
19  791                  Now, since CBC is tax dollar
20     funded -- since it is a national organization and not a
21     private one, it is, therefore, not subject to the
22     Canadian broadcast standards.  However, who then is it
23     subject to?  Who is it accountable to?  How do we, the
24     public, what formats do we use to make the accountable
25     to us?  And in my research, the only recourse I could


 1     see was these CRTC hearings that happen approximately
 2     every five years, am I correct on that?  That is not
 3     good enough for an organization that purports to speak
 4     to the public.  There must be other avenues to make
 5     these people accountable.  I have not found them.
 6  792                  Now, someone else stated today about
 7     our economy, our culture and our governance.  And these
 8     things are important as a nation, we need a national
 9     broadcasting service that can cover all three of those
10     areas.
11  793                  It has been said that people fear the
12     most what they do not understand and that is so true. 
13     Now, as we have heard from these different segments of
14     society today, most of them have complained that they
15     are in the minority and they are not understood.  The
16     First Nations people are not understood, the
17     francophones are not understood, and it is because
18     people seem to fear what they do not understand.  How
19     can we change that?  The only way to change that is to
20     inform, to have people have the knowledge to be able to
21     understand one another.
22  794                  Now, I am also from a segment of
23     society that is misunderstood quite often.  I am of the
24     segment of the society that chooses to teach our
25     children at home, I home school our five children and I


 1     have seen everything from one end of the spectrum to
 2     the other when the media is reporting on home
 3     schooling.
 4  795                  My personal experiences with the CBC,
 5     frankly, have not been good in this arena and I would
 6     like to just take a brief moment to show you
 7     approximately a minute and a half worth of video that
 8     shows my personal experiences with the CBC.
 9     --- Video presentation / Présentation video.
10  796                  MS TRUSCOTT:  This gentleman came to
11     my home from a program on the French CBC.  He purported
12     to do an interview on home schooling.  As you can see,
13     he was more interested in environmental issues than he
14     was in home schooling.
15  797                  These people spent an entire day with
16     our home and our family and the only portions of that
17     entire day that they chose to air were the parts that
18     talked about our yard.  It had nothing to do with
19     anything.  When this gentleman came to our home it was
20     obvious right from the start, in fact, it was obvious
21     to me before he came from the home from things other
22     interviewees had said that he had a hidden agenda.
23  798                  Now, we have contacted this person,
24     we sent him 20 pages of e-mails from members of the
25     home schooling community.  They have not responded to


 1     us.  We have made attempts to contact CBC Vancouver,
 2     they have not responded to us.  We were not even able
 3     to fax CBC Vancouver a copy of these 20 pages of
 4     information because they did not answer our phone calls
 5     that all we did was request a fax number.
 6  799                  My five children have been shafted,
 7     plain and simple and there has been no accountability. 
 8     There has been no explanation of why this was done to
 9     us.  They took hours of home schooling video.  They
10     could have made a very well represented, unbiased
11     documentary.  They chose not to do so.  It was on their
12     agenda right from the word go.
13  800                  Now, a gentleman here talked about
14     the story of Buddha.  He said you can either choose to
15     wound and destroy, but you have to be a bigger person
16     to create and heal.  That is what we are now asking
17     from the CBC.  We are asking them to be accountable, to
18     go after this reporter who was unspeakably rude.  You
19     saw how my son was closing doors that they opened. 
20     What reporter comes into your home, does not even ask
21     permission to tape, all that stuff he was taping in the
22     yard was before he even came to the house and
23     introduced himself to me.  What reporter goes to closed
24     doors and videotapes areas that he was told were off
25     limits?


 1  801                  I would think that because CBC has
 2     not made this person accountable, he is going to
 3     continue to do this.  And this is just one small
 4     program.
 5  802                  Now, I do not have time to show you
 6     the entire program, but the program appeared to pit
 7     people against one another on several levels.  It
 8     appeared to pit the French against the English, it
 9     appeared to pit home school against public school, it
10     appeared to pit the rich against the poor.
11  803                  Now, if this is a national
12     broadcasting company that purports to speak for all
13     Canadians, should it not be promoting unity, not
14     devisiveness?  We have a rich diversity in this
15     country.  But by promoting devisiveness, by showing and
16     pitting people against one another, we are not going to
17     create any sense of national unity.  So I am calling on
18     CBC to answer to these charges and to do something
19     about them.  Let us promote unity with diversity, not
20     division.  Thank you.
21     --- Applause / Applaudissements.
22  804                  MS PINSKY:  I will just note that in
23     terms of what types of recourse you have, of course,
24     the CRTC does have the mandate to ensure that CBC
25     broadcasters are consistent with its mandate and the


 1     regulations in the Broadcasting Act.  And so members of
 2     the public are free to file complaints with the CRTC
 3     alleging that a broadcast may not be compliant with any
 4     of the CBC's mandates.
 5  805                  MS TRUSCOTT:  Okay.  Thank you.  If I
 6     could speak to you afterwards, I will find about
 7     exactly how to go about that, then.
 8  806                  MS PINSKY:  Okay.  The next presenter
 9     is Mr. Rob Egan.
11  807                  MR. FRANCIS:  Actually, Rob Egan and
12     I are presenting jointly and I am starting.
13  808                  My name is Michael Francis.  I am the
14     chairman of B.C. Film.  We'd like to begin by thanking
15     the CRTC for hosting these public consultations.  This
16     is a valuable process and we appreciate the opportunity
17     to voice in person the role that we feel the CBC should
18     play in the Canadian broadcasting system.
19  809                  We'd also like to state that we
20     recognize that the Canadian television industry has two
21     language base sectors and our comments only relate to
22     the English language broadcast sector.
23  810                  British Columbia Film supports the
24     creation of film and television production by
25     independent British Columbia producers.  In 1997-98,


 1     British Columbia film supported 73 hours of B.C.
 2     television movies and a series of 53 hours of B.C.
 3     documentary and arts and entertainment programming.  We
 4     are on track to exceed that output in our current
 5     fiscal year.
 6  811                  We are here today on behalf of our
 7     clients, B.C. Independent Producers and the thousands
 8     of employees who work with them.
 9  812                  The CBC is a significant partner in
10     our endeavours to support independent production in
11     this province.  As a national public broadcaster, the
12     CBC should be making a long-term commitment to creating
13     B.C. programming for both regional broadcast and
14     national broadcast.
15  813                  Vancouver is a major North American
16     production and cultural centre.  The voices and stories
17     of British Columbia should be accessible across Canada
18     and contribute to the Canadian broadcasting system.
19  814                  However, if we look at the CBC's
20     record in this region over the last decade, this has
21     not been accomplished.  CBC licencing of independent
22     B.C. drama declined significantly during the '90s.  CBC
23     programming has not been sufficiently innovative nor
24     distinctive from that of the broadcasting of other
25     major networks.


 1  815                  In the last decade, there has been no
 2     major one-hour episodic drama licensed from B.C. for
 3     national broadcast until this year.  There were several
 4     half-hour dramas and youth series licensed in the early
 5     to mid-1990s, but until "Davinci's Inquest", there was
 6     no one-hour dramatic series from B.C. on our public
 7     broadcasters' prime time schedule.
 8  816                  We believe that the CBC needs
 9     appropriate fiscal resources in order to fulfil its
10     mandate.  We understand that there was a recommendation
11     in the report of the federal feature film advisory
12     committee which suggested $25 million should be taken
13     from the CBC to support feature film making.
14  817                  While we agree in principle with the
15     report's objective of supporting Canadian feature film,
16     we do not believe it should be at the expense of the
17     CBC.  We support, without hesitation, the report of the
18     $25 million by the CBC.
19  818                  These resources will have significant
20     impact if sent equitably by the CBC to stimulate
21     Canadian television production.
22  819                  Now my colleague, Rob Egan.
23  820                  MR. EGAN:  Thank you.  To put our
24     comments into context, we would like to emphasize that
25     the Canadian film and television industry has three


 1     main production centres.  Montreal is a centre of
 2     French language production and Vancouver and Toronto
 3     are centres of English language production.
 4  821                  In British Columbia last year, a
 5     record-setting $808 million was spent in the province
 6     in film and television production.  $363 million of
 7     that in Canadian production.  Vancouver in particular
 8     has developed a strong and vibrant motion picture
 9     industry.  We have talented Canadian writers,
10     directors, producers, editors, performers, composers
11     and designers all of whom are able to contribute to the
12     creation of Canadian stories for the screen.
13  822                  We have world-class crews who have
14     refined their skills and practised their craft on major
15     American productions shooting in British Columbia.  We
16     have a strong infrastructure, attractive fiscal
17     incentives set up by the provincial governments and
18     diverse locations.
19  823                  At the same time, there has not been
20     allocation of CBC resources.  Vancouver, in our view,
21     has not been treated like a major Canadian production
22     centre in the same way that Toronto has been.  We are
23     asking the CRTC to recognize Vancouver's role as a key
24     production and cultural centre in Canada and to require
25     that the CBC do the same.


 1  824                  With the wealth of talent and
 2     experience in Vancouver, we find this to be
 3     disappointing.  The CBC as a national public
 4     broadcaster must be allocating its resources in a way
 5     which acknowledges an equity between the two main
 6     centres of English language production in the country.
 7  825                  Our statistics show that CBC support
 8     of independent production in which British Columbia
 9     Film was a partner was severely lacking in the 1990s. 
10     In 1993-94 CBC cash commitments to television
11     productions contracted by British Columbia Film was at
12     $4.2 million.  In subsequent fiscal years this dropped
13     to $3.8 million, $1 million, $600,000 and finally to
14     less than $500,000 in 1997-98.  Meanwhile, CBC cash
15     development projects supported by British Columbia Film
16     fell to below $50,000 from 1993 through 1996.
17  826                  The withdrawal of CBC support during
18     those years was an obstacle to the expansion of the
19     Canadian television industry in Vancouver.
20  827                  Vancouver and Toronto are major
21     English language production centres, dynamic, maturing
22     and increasingly competing with each other.  The CBC's
23     commitments must reflect the reality of this change in
24     the Canadian television industry.
25  828                  In particular, we ask the CRTC and


 1     the CBC to examine the CBC's cash commitments to
 2     independent production across the country.  We note
 3     that in the 1997-98, annual report of the Canada
 4     television and cable production fund, that the CBC
 5     contributed about $38.7 million to new Canadian
 6     programming supported by the fund.
 7  829                  The question that arises is, how much
 8     of the CBC's licence fees support programming in
 9     Vancouver, one of the anchors of English language
10     production in Canada.  According to our statistics, in
11     that same fiscal year British Columbia Film supported
12     projects with less than $500,000 in CBC licence fees.
13  830                  Considering the size and impact of
14     Vancouver and British Columbia as a centre of
15     production, this is a very small portion of the nearly
16     $40 million spent by the CBC across Canada.  Clearly,
17     this question begs further research and analysis.
18  831                  Equally as important a question is
19     how much of these licences support programming that
20     cannot be found on the scheduling of private
21     broadcasters.  As a public broadcaster, the CBC should
22     be encouraging innovative drama and provocative
23     hard-hitting documentary programming not found on the
24     commercially driven broadcast system.
25  832                  On a positive note, we have been


 1     pleased to see a renewed commitment to this centre by
 2     the CBC in the last year and a half.  In our current
 3     fiscal year, CBC commitments to productions assisted by
 4     British Columbia film is approximately $3.7 million. 
 5     This is an improvement over the last few years.  We are
 6     delighted to have jointly funded "Davinci's Inquest"
 7     and "11th Hour" with the CBC and to witness "Davinci's
 8     Inquest"'s success in attracting audiences in the
 9     network prime time schedule.
10  833                  The CBC is also licensing "Nothing
11     Too Good for a Cowboy", "These Arms of Mine", and
12     "Edgemont Road".  We are also pleased to see the hiring
13     of a development officers for the Vancouver office, a
14     position which had been vacant for some time.
15  834                  The CBC, and we here in B.C. must
16     ensure that this renewed commitment continues with
17     tangible support for the creative voices that tell our
18     stories.
19  835                  We would like to see Vancouver become
20     a decision-making and administrative centre within the
21     CBC.  The Vancouver office of the CBC should have more
22     autonomy and greater power to make decisions regarding
23     development and production in Vancouver for national
24     broadcast.  Let us be clear that we are not advocating
25     a duplicate, costly bureaucracy for Vancouver, we are


 1     advocating a transfer of decision-making to the
 2     Vancouver base of our national public broadcaster
 3     operating in what has now become one of the two major
 4     centres of English language production in Canada.
 5  836                  As a decision-making centre, the
 6     Vancouver office should have access to national air
 7     time to promote B.C. programming.  This includes
 8     quality regional programming for local audiences,
 9     innovative programs with cultural value for B.C.
10     viewers and a network schedule that shows B.C.'s
11     producers, actors, writers, composers, performing
12     artists and crews that the CBC can be counted on as a
13     purveyor of our cultural landscape.
14  837                  The CBC has a strong role to play in
15     the Canadian broadcasting system, but it needs to
16     diversify and be more reflective of the changing
17     reality of the Canadian television industry.  If we
18     look at the CBC's record in the 1990s in terms of
19     licencing major drama from British Columbia, spending
20     to support B.C. independent production and filling its
21     network schedule with quality innovative programming
22     including productions from Vancouver and B.C., the CBC
23     has not lived up to the expectations that British
24     Columbians have for its public broadcaster.
25  838                  Again, Vancouver is today one of the


 1     two major centres for English language production in
 2     Canada and is a hub of cultural activity with a stable
 3     of talented and experienced writers, actors, directors
 4     and crews.
 5  839                  There is already a strong motion
 6     picture infrastructure established here and B.C.
 7     regional producers, particularly in Vancouver are
 8     becoming more prominent.
 9  840                  B.C. independent producers contribute
10     unique innovative quality programming to the CBC.  In
11     turn, the CBC should be investing increased resources
12     to this centre of production to renew its relevance by
13     actively supporting industry growth and cultural
14     opportunity in B.C.
15  841                  We ask that the CBC recognize our
16     changing reality and commit to developing its Vancouver
17     office as a decision-making centre to ensure that the
18     West Coast industry can contribute fully to Canadian
19     programming.  We know that decisions have to be made
20     somewhere but why does it always seem that they are
21     being made elsewhere, usually in Toronto?
22  842                  These commitments include licence
23     fees to support independent production in this industry
24     and cultural centre, access to network prime time
25     schedules to showcase our talent and tell our stories


 1     and autonomy and decision-making to respond to the
 2     talent, experience and opportunity in B.C. that is
 3     seeking out the CBC.
 4  843                  As we embark on the new millennium
 5     which you identified in one of your questions framing
 6     these public consultations, we ask the question:  Has
 7     there ever been a better moment in time to acknowledge
 8     that cultural ties after all are the ones that bind in
 9     a revitalized and renewed CBC is something that we all
10     deserve in the new millennium.  Thank you.
11  844                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
12     you.  I would have two questions for you.  I would like
13     to know how you explain the kind of factors you see as
14     being the ones that explain the low production into the
15     region of British Columbia during the 1990s.  What do
16     you see as being the reasons?  Do you think that your
17     recommendation or -- yeah, your recommendation about
18     Vancouver office and decision-making to be here in
19     Vancouver with more autonomy without duplicating
20     bureaucracy, I heard that, too, do you think it is
21     achievable with the level of financing that the CBC has
22     today?
23  845                  MR. FRANCIS:  If I can answer that
24     first, I would like to associate myself with the
25     remarks of Phillip Keatley earlier.  I think they


 1     exhibited a greater knowledge of the internal workings
 2     of the CBC than I could ever aspire to.  But I think
 3     that his -- the points that he was making were very,
 4     very similar to the ones included in our brief.
 5  846                  We have to be very careful about
 6     duplication.  There is no question about that.  But
 7     also, when one looks at the comparative infrastructure
 8     between Toronto and Vancouver, it becomes immediately
 9     obvious that the balance is way out of line and of
10     course there has to be a head office and of course
11     there are a lot of head office functions that have to
12     be only in one place.  But, in terms of programming,
13     program selection and whatnot, we have found it very
14     difficult -- our producers have found it very difficult
15     to deal with the CBC.  It is a long way away.
16  847                  Now, as we mentioned in this
17     submission, the last year and a half has brought a lot
18     of very pleasant change.  And the period of time
19     between when Mr. Keatley left the CBC and Lisa Purdy
20     was hired as the development officer, that was a
21     considerable period of time and during that period of
22     time, there was very little development work done.  So
23     we are seeing the results of that now.
24  848                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  And
25     in terms of more autonomy and more activity here, do


 1     you think that it goes with more financing or just the
 2     pursuit of what exists now with a better ballast
 3     possible without more financing?
 4  849                  MR. FRANCIS:  I think more could be
 5     done.  More could have been done throughout the 1990s
 6     without more financing.  Certainly when we mention that
 7     we are opposed to stripping the CBC of the $25 million
 8     as advocated it by the feature film committee, we are
 9     showing a sensitivity to that.  But it is a major
10     cultural agency that has been stripped of financial
11     resources.  So to the extent those financial resources
12     can be reapplied straight into the production sector, I
13     mean, we applaud that.
14  850                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
15     you very much.  That is all I have, thank you.
16  851                  MS PINSKY:  Ms Shari Graydon.
18  852                  MS GRAYDON:  I am here on behalf of
19     Media Watch, the national non-profit women's
20     organization that is dedicated to making Canadian --
21     Canada's media environment more equitable.
22  853                  As you no doubt know, Media Watch was
23     established in 1981 as the result of a CRTC study which
24     documented how significantly under represented and
25     stereotypically portrayed women in Canadian


 1     broadcasting were at the time.
 2  854                  My presence here today as president
 3     of Media Watch is indicative of the fact that over the
 4     past 18 years, the picture has not changed sufficiently
 5     to render Media Watch obsolete yet.  We are working on
 6     that.
 7  855                  We conduct media analysis research,
 8     we develop and deliver media literacy programs and we
 9     facilitate public advocacy initiatives that support
10     citizen interaction with media producers, distributors
11     and indeed regulators.
12  856                  Our overarching goal is to create a
13     more responsible media environment that celebrates, not
14     undermines a humane and equitable society.  And we
15     believe that the CBC plays a critical leadership role
16     in this regard.
17  857                  Would like to begin citing two
18     important documents as the framework for our
19     intervention of the Canadian Broadcasting Act considers
20     the airwaves are a public utility to be used for the
21     good of all Canadians.  CBC's mission statement states
22     that the public broadcasters' role is to reflect the
23     changing realities of the Canadian experience and of
24     the world in which we live.
25  858                  We believe that in recent years the


 1     deep and repeated cut backs to the CBC have
 2     significantly undermined the public broadcasters'
 3     ability to both meet its mandate and to fulfil the
 4     leadership roll in the broadcasting system as a whole.
 5  859                  The current strike is a symptom of
 6     the fiscal siege and is serving to further erode the
 7     CBC at a time when its contribution is needed more than
 8     ever.
 9  860                  The two key issues that we would like
10     to address this afternoon include the importance of the
11     CBC's continued independence and the leadership role
12     that the public broadcaster plays in the area of
13     equitable representation.
14  861                  On the independence front, increasing
15     corporate concentration of media ownership in Canada in
16     both print and broadcasting sectors makes the CBC's
17     independent role even more critical than ever before
18     and its independence must be sustained.
19  862                  As the recipient of public funds, CBC
20     is in a unique position to be able to set aside
21     commercial interests and to provide a forum in which
22     media practices themselves can be examined in a
23     critical way.
24  863                  I cannot emphasize this enough.
25  864                  And I would say that even though CBC


 1     television is partially reliant on advertising dollars,
 2     CBC television has managed to, I think, do this in a
 3     way that other private broadcasters have not.
 4  865                  Media are tremendously powerful
 5     socializing forces which now impact on every aspect of
 6     Canadian contemporary life.  And it is crucial that an
 7     organization like the CBC be supported in ensuring
 8     continued discussion about the role, the impact and the
 9     responsibility of the media as a whole, especially at a
10     time when commercial media appear increasingly
11     reluctant to do this.
12  866                  Programs like "Under Currents", for
13     instance, need to continue to be supported, not cut
14     back.  And the CBC should seek out other opportunities
15     to develop programming that provides a media literacy
16     function.
17  867                  The CBC's willingness to challenge
18     and question some of the most powerful and least
19     accountable institutions of our day is crucial and must
20     be protected.
21  868                  The importance of CBC's continued
22     independence was also recently addressed by another
23     member of Media Watch's board, Catherine Murray, who
24     served on the Juneau committee which reviewed the
25     mandate of the CBC.  I would like to reiterate some of


 1     the comments Dr. Murray played recently in the Globe
 2     and Mail.  In particular, she argued that the CBC board
 3     appointments must be transparent and that appointees
 4     must command a widespread public respect and
 5     legitimacy.  It goes without saying that stable, secure
 6     funding is fundamental to the CBC's continued
 7     independence.
 8  869                  I think as an observer, it has been
 9     phenomenal the degree to which CBC has been able to
10     continue this role in recent years, despite the cut
11     backs that it has sustained.
12  870                  The second issue we would like to
13     address is that of representation.  Broadcasters have
14     an obligation to reflect the interests and perspectives
15     of all Canadians as outlined in the Broadcasting Act. 
16     Unfortunately, few resources are invested in
17     documenting the extent to which they are, in fact,
18     living up to this charge.
19  871                  Media Watch and other non-profit
20     organizations are limited in their capacity to
21     undertake such research and we urge the CRTC to start
22     making public the data collected relating to
23     broadcasters' initiatives to achieving equity in both
24     portrayal and employment terms.
25  872                  We also believe that an update of the


 1     CRTC-sponsored air and research studies done in the
 2     1980s is well overdue.  It is impossible to evaluate
 3     broadcasters' performance without a more rigorous
 4     measurement processes.
 5  873                  Undertaking this benchmark research
 6     would provide Canadians with a much better means of
 7     determining whether or not the broadcasters using the
 8     public air waves have earned that privilege and deserve
 9     to be permitted to continue.
10  874                  In 1994, Media Watch conducted some
11     content analysis research in which CBC came out
12     significantly ahead of private broadcasters in its
13     inclusion of women and minorities in news programming.
14  875                  In a comparison of CBC, Global, CTV
15     and Newsworld, CBC had the highest percentage of female
16     reporters at 46 per cent followed by Newsworld at 44
17     per cent with global and CTV falling well behind at 36
18     per cent and 26 per cent respectively.
19  876                  Women, as everyone knows, make up 51
20     per cent of the population.  CBC broadcasts also
21     included the highest percentage of reporters from
22     diverse background at 7 per cent followed by Newsworld
23     at 4.5 per cent and then Global and CTV at less than 3
24     per cent each.
25  877                  This trend was echoed by the figures


 1     for news sources.  CBC again came out significantly
 2     ahead of the others with more than 16 per cent of its
 3     sources reflecting people from diverse ethnic and
 4     cultural programs compared to CTV's 10 per cent and
 5     global's 6 per cent.
 6  878                  Women and minorities were and still
 7     are under represented in some regards by the public
 8     broadcaster and this needs to be addressed by the CBC
 9     as it does by private broadcasters.  In addition, these
10     figures are now five years old and clearly need to be
11     updated.
12  879                  However, they do point to the
13     leadership role that the public broadcaster has been
14     able to play in more equitably representing Canadians
15     to themselves.
16  880                  We believe that CBC must be supported
17     in its role of nurturing new voices and diverse
18     perspectives.  This is integral to its core mandate and
19     has been evident in a number of news and entertainment
20     programs which it has developed and broadcast.  We
21     believe this must continue.
22  881                  We also urge you to maintain a local
23     CBC presence in communities across the country through
24     stable, long term funding.
25  882                  This, too, ensures that a diversity


 1     of regional perspectives are available for national
 2     programming and also supports and independent
 3     commercial free news voice.
 4  883                  One final word about the CRTC's role,
 5     I know that in this particular hearing process, you are
 6     hearing from many individual Canadians who are
 7     passionate about the CBC and who want to go on record
 8     in terms of its unique role and contribution to
 9     nurturing Canadian culture, telling Canadian stories
10     and connecting citizens across the country.
11  884                  If I were not here on behalf of Media
12     Watch, I would want my voice counted in this regard in
13     support of the CBC.  However, individual citizens
14     rarely have the resources to participate as fully in
15     CRTC hearings.  And non-profit media organizations such
16     as Media Watch also have extremely limited resources to
17     bring to bear on these processes.  Yet, such
18     independent voices are critical to provide balance to
19     the hearings which are often dominated by private
20     broadcasters able to invest significant time and money
21     in presentations which reflect their complex interests. 
22     The fundamental role media should play requires that
23     these independent voices be heard there.
24  885                  I will urge again as Media Watch has
25     done in the past, that intervenor costs for citizen


 1     groups should be considered and would help to offset
 2     this imbalance.  Thank you.
 3     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 4  886                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
 5     you very much.  And it is in waiting for a change of
 6     legislation that would allow the commission to
 7     reimburse the expenses we have included in the 11
 8     cities and regional consultation that is part of the
 9     public hearing for the renewal of the CBC.
10  887                  So we thought that if we could not
11     reimburse, we would travel.
12  888                  MS PINSKY:  Mr. Robert Hackett.
14  889                  MR. HACKETT:  Thank you.
15  890                  I should introduce myself.  First of
16     all, as an associate professor of communication at
17     Simon Fraser University and also co-director since 1993
18     of Newswatch Canada which is a project initiated by the
19     Canadian Association of Journalists and which draws on
20     the work of some of our best students in our school of
21     communication using social science methods,
22     particularly content analysis to explore blind spots in
23     Canada's news media against a background of growing
24     concentration of ownership, cut backs to investigative
25     journalism and, in deed, cut backs to the CBC, those


 1     were the original concerns that led the Canadian
 2     Association of Journalists to undertake this project
 3     which we have been doing for the last six years.  I
 4     should emphasize that I am speaking as an individual
 5     and not on behalf of the project itself.
 6  891                  It seems to me that not only the
 7     funding but also the very legitimacy of public
 8     broadcasting are under siege today.  CBC's arm's length
 9     relationship with the government, essential to its
10     credibility, is being eroded.  Witness, for example,
11     the Milewsky case or the reported proposal to establish
12     an Ottawa-based vice-president to oversee all CBC news
13     and current affairs programming.
14  892                  Meanwhile, there is a range of
15     interest groups which for their own purposes would like
16     in various ways to see significant chunks of the CBC's
17     operations privatized or downsized or commercialized. 
18     And we have well-financed and media-connected free
19     market fundamentalists from a whole stable of National
20     Post columnists to the Fraser Institute keeping up a
21     steady patter that CBC news is biased or is needlessly
22     duplicating the services of private broadcasters.
23  893                  And local news seems to be one of the
24     areas that they have targeted for elimination.
25     Defenders of CBC reply, rightly I think, that CBC has


 1     done more than the private broadcasters to report the
 2     world from a Canadian perspective or to explain the
 3     regions of Canada to each other.  But there is also a
 4     broader case to be made for public service journalism;
 5     namely, that it is a bulwark not only of political and
 6     cultural sovereignty but also of political democracy.
 7  894                  So why is this the case?  Well, one
 8     of the requirements of a genuinely democratic society
 9     and it is implied in the Broadcasting Act is a
10     political communication system which helps sustain an
11     informed citizenry an adequate opportunity for diverse
12     and sometimes conflicting interests to contribute to
13     public debate.
14  895                  A democratic media system ideally
15     would represent diverse interests and ensure that the
16     wealthy would not unduly influence media and political
17     agendas.  And if you think back to the Aird Report that
18     was, as I understand, initially one of the rationales
19     for creating public broadcasting in the first place.
20  896                  Democratic journalism would also
21     remind us of what we have in common and provide an
22     arena for discussing matters of common concern.
23  897                  Well, suppose we did not have public
24     broadcasting, could we rely on new media technology to
25     sustain democratic diversity as some observers argue? 


 1     I would say not likely.  The Internet increasingly to
 2     take its most prominent example of new media
 3     technology, the media is increasingly being harnessed
 4     by transnational giants with commercial rather than
 5     democratic purposes and even if the net does manage to
 6     maintain its interactive and anarchic culture, it is
 7     hardly likely to constitute a common meeting ground for
 8     Canadians.  That is not to deny that CBC should have a
 9     strong presence there.  My point is that technology on
10     its own is unlikely to be a democratic saviour.
11  898                  Well, what about private broadcasters
12     and the daily press?  Are they not more responsive to
13     consumer choices than tax-subsidized CBC and,
14     therefore, as the free marketers contend, more
15     democratic?  Again, not necessarily.
16  899                  Historically the free press help to
17     democratize authoritarian regimes.  But today in North
18     America, in a thoroughly commercialized system, the
19     free press is too often reduced to a property right of
20     a handful of media owners.  The market logic of one
21     dollar, one vote has an ambiguous relationship with a
22     democratic logic of one person one vote.  Commercial
23     media tend to favour consumerism over other social
24     values and affluent consumers whom advertisers most
25     want to reach over the less well-healed.


 1  900                  Well, perhaps we take for granted
 2     that most Canadian newspapers have business sections
 3     but not labour sections, or that glossy magazines are
 4     distributed free in Shaughnessy but not in Surrey.
 5  901                  But, as a Pulitzer Prize winning
 6     journalist and media educator reminds us, it is worth
 7     thinking about the systemic class bias of the
 8     commercial media in which these kind of discrepancies
 9     symbolize.
10  902                  The user-pay broadcasting and online
11     information services simply cater disproportionately to
12     affluent and institutional subscribers and those
13     commercial media which do reach popular audiences tend
14     too readily towards shrillness, infotainment and
15     knee-jerk authoritarianism.
16  903                  Commercial media also have another
17     limitation, particularly at the local level.  That is
18     they are too vulnerable to providing soft coverage of
19     advertisers themselves.  Indeed, the centre for the
20     study of commercialism in Washington, D.C. has
21     documented dozens of cases of outright censorship
22     throughout America's highly commercialized news system.
23  904                  The biases of the commercial media
24     system are amplified by concentrated and conglomerate
25     corporate ownership well advanced in the press and


 1     increasing in broadcasting which is a question I
 2     understand is on your own agenda.
 3  905                  These ownership structures make news
 4     rooms more vulnerable to the external interests of
 5     parent corporations and owners.  Even more important,
 6     diversity and the system as a whole can be reduced
 7     simply as a byproduct of economic rationalization by
 8     these giant media corporations.
 9  906                  At Simon Fraser University, our own
10     news watch, Canada research on news patterns in the
11     daily press provides evidence, we think, of ongoing
12     double standards, notably in favour of business spokes
13     people, institutes and policy options, over their
14     labour and progressive counterparts.
15  907                  Moreover, news corporations seem to
16     find it difficult to cover themselves with the same
17     critical independence that they apply to other
18     institutions.  That is surely not a shocker, it is not
19     surprising, but it is nevertheless significant given
20     the economic and cultural power of the medium.
21  908                  At its best, CBC's journalism can
22     counter balance these limitations.  While audience
23     fragmentation is a problem for all networks and one
24     could argue a problem that has been worsened for CBC
25     more than the private sector, given licencing decisions


 1     over the last several years in which I understand the
 2     public broadcasters only received about two out of the
 3     last 50 specialty licences.  Audience fragmentation is
 4     a problem for all networks, but nevertheless CBC's
 5     national news programs continue to set the standards
 6     for broadcast journalism in Canada.
 7  909                  And at the local level, even with
 8     decimated resources, CBC journalism can still offer a
 9     distinct voice.  And I want to take one area with which
10     I am familiar, coverage of the media industries
11     themselves.
12  910                  In the past three years, local CBC
13     and radio and television have broken stories or given
14     in depth treatment to issues which most of the
15     corporate media avoided.  Some examples include of
16     Hollinger's donation to the B.C. Liberal Party in the
17     1996 provincial election, Southam's take over the
18     Victoria Times-Colonist, David Black's edict to his 50
19     or more editors on the Nisga'a treaty and our own news
20     watch Canada's research report on the Vancouver Sun.
21  911                  All of those were covered by the CBC
22     and with the occasional exception of CKNW and the
23     Georgia Straight, many of those stories might not
24     otherwise have been brought to public light.
25  912                  That is not to suggest that CBC's


 1     journalism is perfect.  CBC's own audiences tend to be
 2     up-scale and demographically unrepresented.  CBC could
 3     do more to counteract as Shari Graydon has pointed out,
 4     the gender as well as class bias of the voices accessed
 5     in the other quality media.  And arguably, the CBC
 6     needs to find ways to speak in a popular voice without
 7     descending into tabloid journalism.
 8  913                  Beyond that, there is, as many people
 9     have already noted, the long-standing need for a secure
10     funding base which avoids the twin pitfalls of
11     political and commercial pressure in a climate of
12     excessive commercialism and corporate concentration.
13  914                  Today in North America, many
14     observers have argued the very institutional basis for
15     independent public affairs journalism is in question. 
16     And given the structural biases I have already noted, I
17     do not see increased advertising as the answer, at
18     least not for CBC's news and information programming.
19  915                  If the quest for ratings and sponsors
20     comes to dominate CBC's own programming
21     decision-making, it will have no distinctive purpose. 
22     Instead, I would like to make a proposal, I guess, in
23     the Swiftian sense:  Reduce advertising on CBC but at
24     the same time impose a dedicated tax on advertising
25     which could be used to support public broadcasting and


 1     other non-profit media which meet democratic
 2     unification needs largely ignored in a corporate
 3     commercial media system.
 4  916                  I think, in conclusion, that the free
 5     marketeers are right about one thing, there is no point
 6     subsidizing CBC to duplicate what private broadcasters
 7     are doing.  But for the free marketeers, that means
 8     eliminating CBC's local news and much else besides. 
 9     But I think we can draw the opposite collusion, that is
10     CBC's regional journalism needs to be strengthened, not
11     to duplicate the private broadcasters, but to counter
12     balance them.
13  917                  And, just as a footnote, I would like
14     to say that insofar as the Commission has a mandate to
15     make visible to Canadians issues of quality and
16     diversity in broadcasting news, we at News Watch would
17     be very interested, I think, in participating in future
18     public forums on that.
19  918                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  That
20     is a good note for further study.  Thank you very much
21     for your contribution.  Thank you.
22     --- Applause / Applaudissements
23  919                  MS PINSKY:  Those are all the
24     presenters for this afternoon.  If the CBC
25     representative wants to come up to the table to


 1     respond.
 2  920                  M. GROULX:  Madame la Présidente,
 3     chers membres du public et puis de la communauté
 4     francophone, merci d'abord de... merci de vous être
 5     déplacés pour démontrer votre intérêt.  Mon nom est
 6     Robert Groulx, je suis directeur de la Radio française
 7     de Radio-Canada en Colombie-Britannique.
 8  921                  Alors, merci de votre participation,
 9     nous avons... de votre contribution et de vos
10     commentaires, de vos critiques aussi qui nous ont tous
11     été très importants.
12  922                  Comme vous pouvez l'imaginer, comme
13     vous l'avez peut-être constaté, on a tous pris bonne
14     note de vos remarques, de vos suggestions, de vos
15     propositions et de vos attentes.  Les importantes
16     perspectives d'avenir aussi et d'ouverture que vous
17     nous avez présenté pour nous aider très certainement à
18     bien développer notre rôle dans cet environnement
19     médiatique constamment en évolution.
20  923                  Enfin, j'aimerais aussi rappeler que
21     Radio-Canada a un processus de responsabilité
22     journalistique très développé, une politique
23     journalistique très précise qui donne accès à tous les
24     membres du public qui ont des récriminations ou des
25     plaintes à formuler, à s'adresser directement aux


 1     responsables de programmes et aussi au ombudsman de
 2     Radio-Canada, autant pour les services français que les
 3     services anglais.
 4  924                  Merci.
 5     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 7  925                  MS HALL:  Thanks Robert.  And thanks
 8     again, Madam Chair.
 9  926                  My name is Rae Hall.  I am the
10     regional director of television for CBC British
11     Columbia.  Thank you for letting us be a part of the
12     CRTC's public consultations so that we could hear what
13     British Columbians have to say about the CBC.  Thank
14     you all of you for taking the time to be here and to
15     those of you who made comments, thank you for taking
16     such pains in your presentation.
17  927                  Your comments have been an
18     inspiration.  Your support is much appreciated.  The
19     passion that you displayed today at times gave me goose
20     bumps and the points that you have made in areas where
21     we could make improvements have been noted and we will
22     respond to each of you individually.
23  928                  There were a few specific issues that
24     were raised today which I would like very much to
25     address.  First, in regards to advocacy advertising on


 1     CBC television, it is accurate that the policy
 2     regarding advocacy advertising changed in recent years
 3     at CBC.  I would just like to read a paragraph from
 4     CBC's current policies regarding advocacy advertising.
 5                            "CBC accepts such messages
 6                            because it believes that the
 7                            democratic rights of Canadians
 8                            will be best served by policies
 9                            promoting freedom of speech."
10  929                  However, advocacy advertisements will
11     not be aired on CBC, all news channels, nor within
12     information programs, programs whose regular mandate is
13     to report on controversial public issues or programs in
14     which the CBC does not schedule advertising.
15  930                  Just to clarify the issue that was
16     raised earlier today regarding ad busters, I would also
17     like to remind you that there is an ombudsman process
18     for both the English language services and the French
19     language services.  And if any of you have criticisms
20     or comments to make regarding CBC programs, I encourage
21     you to make yourselves known to any of us and we can
22     certainly let you know how best to contact the
23     ombudsman for either language.
24  931                  Finally, when it comes to the voices
25     and stories of Canadians and ensuring that those voices


 1     and stories are heard, that goes to the very core of
 2     what CBC television and radio is all about.  That is
 3     why we are here.
 4  932                  As CBC resources have been reduced,
 5     we continue to work to maintain that balance.
 6     Particularly in the area of drama, it takes some time
 7     for the development process to occur which is why we
 8     are very pleased that this fall on the CBC television
 9     prime time schedule there will be four B.C.-based
10     dramatic series on the schedule which make British
11     Columbia one of the very best-represented provinces on
12     the CBC television schedule.
13  933                  The development office at CBC in
14     Vancouver has continued to exist -- just as a point of
15     clarification -- through the '80s and the '90s and
16     continues to exist today.
17  934                  It was a privilege to listen to all
18     of you today.  I am encouraged by what you have to say
19     and I look forward to more presentations this evening. 
20     Thank you very much.
21     --- Applause / Applaudissements
22  935                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
23     you.  I would like to thank every one of you to have
24     participated in the consultation.  I repeat that we had
25     the help of court reporters and translators who will


 1     make sure that it gets on the public record and it is
 2     part of the public hearing that will conduct with the
 3     renewal of the applications with the renewal of the
 4     CBC.  Thank you for your participation and
 5     contribution.
 6  936                  I remind you that the applications of
 7     the CBC will be gazetted on the 27th of March and you
 8     have until the 30th of April if you want to have
 9     additional comments in written form to send them to the
10     CRTC so that it can also be considered for the analysis
11     and the renewal of applications.  Thank you very much
12     and thank you.
13     --- Recess at 1645 / Suspension à 1645
14     --- Upon resuming at 1800 / Reprise à 1800
15  937                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
16     Alors, bon soir, ladies and gentlemen, good evening. 
17     We will start.  Welcome to the public consultation on
18     the CBC.
19  938                  My name is Françoise Bertrand and I
20     am the CRTC's chairperson.  We are here to gather your
21     views and hear your comments on CBC radio and
22     television.  In your opinion, how should the Canadian
23     Broadcasting Corporation fulfil its roles in the coming
24     years.
25  939                  The CBC is a national public service


 1     broadcasting in English as well as in French.  It plays
 2     an important role in the Canadian broadcasting system. 
 3     Today, many elements are constantly being added to the
 4     broadcasting system as new technologies multiply,
 5     converge, open up new horizons and increasingly offer
 6     new services.  In this context, we want to know what
 7     are your needs and expectations as viewers and
 8     listeners of the CBC.
 9  940                  Given that it is very important that
10     the commission hears what you have to say, this is why
11     my fellow commissioners and myself find it vital to
12     come and meet with you to discuss these issues and why
13     we are holding this series of regional consultations
14     from one end of the country to the other in 11 Canadian
15     cities.
16  941                  These consultations are designed to
17     give you a chance on the eve of a new millennium to
18     discuss your opinion on the CBC's role, the programming
19     it offers and the direction it should take at the
20     national, regional and local levels.
21  942                  Your comments will form part of the
22     public record which will be added to the record of the
23     public hearing on the CBC that will begin in Hull on
24     May 25th.
25  943                  At this upcoming hearing, the


 1     commission will examine the CBC's application for the
 2     renewal of its licences, including radio, television
 3     and its specialty services, Newsworld and Le Réseau de
 4     l'information.  You can also take part in that public
 5     hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC.
 6  944                  Now I would like to come back to
 7     today's consultation.
 8  945                  Please allow me to introduce Carolyn
 9     Pinsky, our legal counsel.  Please feel free to call on
10     her with any questions that you might have about the
11     process today or any or matter.  So that you will have
12     all the opportunity to speak, we ask that you please
13     limit your presentation to ten minutes.  At the end of
14     this session, representatives from the local CBC
15     stations will have a chance to offer their views as
16     they are naturally very interested by the issues we are
17     discussing here today.
18  946                  Before we start, I would ask Ms
19     Pinsky to go over some of the housekeeping matters
20     regarding the conduct of this consultation.
21  947                  MS PINSKY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
22     First, I would invite anyone in the audience who wants
23     to take a seat at the table to feel free to come up and
24     to do so.  I believe all of the persons who are here to
25     make presentations are already at the table.


 1  948                  I will call each presenter and when
 2     they are called, if you could please press the little
 3     button on the microphone to ensure that the microphone
 4     is on and that your presentation is transcribed
 5     accurately.
 6  949                  We have translation services
 7     available today and if anyone wishes to avail
 8     themselves of them there are little devices around the
 9     table and you can obtain one at the back of the table.
10  950                  And, finally, I would like to note
11     that for those members of the public who are present
12     here today, but who do not wish to make oral
13     presentations, we do have comment sheets that you can
14     fill out and those sheets will be placed on the public
15     file.
16  951                  With that, I think we will turn to
17     the first presenter, Ms Ingrid Nordhal.
18  952                  MS NORDHAL:  Good evening.
19  953                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Good
20     evening.
22  954                  MS NORDHAL:  My name is Ingrid
23     Nordhal and I am here to speak up for the service that
24     CBC radio provides.  I can remember sitting in our
25     kitchen as a child in grade 5 or 6 listening to farm


 1     reports, news, current affairs programs and drama,
 2     radio dramas.
 3  955                  Many years later, I am listening to
 4     news, radio dramas, comedy programs, weather, current
 5     affairs programs and an eclectic mix of music all
 6     presented by CBC Radio One or Two.
 7  956                  The CBC plays an important role in my
 8     life.  I have come to recognize the voices of the CBC's
 9     regular broadcasters and entertainers over the years
10     and I look forward to these people to keep me company. 
11     These people, whether they know it or not have become
12     my friends, mentors and teachers.  When they leave for
13     other work, retirement or death I mourn their passing.
14  957                  The idea of living in Canada without
15     this institution is too sad a prospect to consider and
16     I feel it is time I gave something back by coming here
17     today to explain to you why I feel we need to not only
18     keep but continue to support the CBC.
19  958                  I would like to address the questions
20     provided in the outline of this hearing.  How well does
21     the CBC fulfil its role as the national public
22     broadcaster?  I have lived in three provinces and
23     travelled in nine provinces and one territory.  I have
24     driven between Vancouver and Toronto many times and the
25     constant for all these experiences has been CBC radio.


 1  959                  Whether in one of our large cities or
 2     on the outskirts of the smallest of communities, you
 3     are usually able to tune into the CBC AM station.  As a
 4     broadcaster, it is not only the CBC's availability, but
 5     also its ability to provide intelligent, pertinent
 6     information and entertainment to all our nation which
 7     makes it successful as our national public broadcaster. 
 8     We have the great privilege of remaining informed of
 9     not just will he call events but of access to quality,
10     national and international coverage regardless of where
11     we live in Canada.
12  960                  I believe that one of the reasons
13     that Canadians are well received and respected around
14     the globe is the fact that even if you come from what
15     most people consider a wilderness out post, you have
16     the same access to the CBC as any of the large urban
17     centres.
18  961                  We go out into the world with a broad
19     case of information about not just our community but
20     that of many nations and people.  What small community
21     station could probably provide the national or
22     international coverage as effectively as the CBC?  It
23     would be like trying to maintain the TransCanada
24     highway with only local community support.
25  962                  For a nation as large and diverse as


 1     ours, we require a national vision and commitment to
 2     provide this information link between all our regions.
 3  963                  Regarding the CBC's ability to
 4     provide regional service, I feel, again, they do an
 5     exemplary job by blending national, international and
 6     community information.  You are able to form
 7     comprehensive ideas about the issues that affect your
 8     community.
 9  964                  It is impossible to consider your
10     community as a closed system that does not interact
11     with the rest of the world.  However, I do feel that we
12     need to be aware of our immediate community and the
13     people and events that shape it.  The CBC has tailored
14     its coverage so that we receive the information most
15     frequently required by its inhabitants.
16  965                  I am able to listen to news, traffic,
17     weather, et cetera, which affects me on a daily basis
18     followed by national programs without switching back
19     and forth between stations.  I feel I get a clearer
20     picture of what larger forces are shaping events in my
21     community.
22  966                  Should the CBC fulfil its role in the
23     new millennium in a different manner than it has in the
24     past?  Yes and no.  The basic role I feel the CBC has
25     and should fulfil is the linking of our nation and this


 1     I feel they do extremely well.
 2  967                  However, any entity that is unable or
 3     unwilling to change is destined for ultimate failure.
 4  968                  I feel we must allow the CBC the
 5     flexibility of experimentation in order to find its
 6     best direction in fulfilling its mandate.  We should
 7     encourage its members to find new ways of gathering and
 8     imparting information.  We are seeing an explosion in
 9     the development of communication technology and the CBC
10     should act like an icebreaker providing the nation with
11     a path of experience by breaking through with the use
12     of this new world of communication.
13  969                  As we see our nation move slowly away
14     from a primarily resource-based economy, we will turn
15     more and more to the industries who have expertise in
16     developing ideas rather than just raw materials.
17  970                  Should programming provided be
18     different from that provided by other broadcasters? I
19     wonder if the question should be should the CBC provide
20     the same inane chatter and repetitive playing of a few
21     pop songs interspersed with annoying advertising as
22     provided by other broadcasters.  I will not demean
23     myself by answering this.
24  971                  Is there a special role that the CBC
25     should play in the presentation of Canadian


 1     programming?  Yes.
 2  972                  Why are Canadians so afraid to help
 3     themselves?  Why not allow our national broadcaster the
 4     privilege of presenting Canadian talent?  It seems that
 5     the only time we appreciate the talent we have here in
 6     Canada is when it leaves.  Let us pride ourselves the
 7     opportunity to develop and enjoy the wealth of talent
 8     we have here.  Perhaps by supporting Canadian talent we
 9     will culturally enrich our nation to the point where
10     these same people will choose to stay here.
11  973                  I have spoken about CBC radio and
12     have ignored CBC TV.  It is not that I feel that CBC TV
13     cannot fulfil the same mandate as CBC radio, it is just
14     that I think it has been pushed too far to the brink of
15     mediocrity.  Its responsibility to its advertisers does
16     not allow CBC TV to have a strong enough identity
17     amongst all the other stations.
18  974                  I would love to see CBC TV rescued
19     from the clutches of commercialdom.  However, I realize
20     at this time of limited funding this is not a feasible
21     expectation.
22  975                  Let us focus on CBC radio, allow it
23     to maintain its place of excellence and by example in
24     time perhaps we can rescue its sister media.
25  976                  The infrastructure of the CBC is


 1     already in place, although sorely neglected and held
 2     together with the sparsest of support.  We must
 3     recognize the CBC's importance to the stability of
 4     Canada.  If we allow it to come apart, I believe, so
 5     goes the nation.  Canadians must exercise foresight in
 6     these matters.  It is not wise to consider the
 7     resources or structure of our vast communications
 8     industry and neighbour and apply it to our unique
 9     institution.  Let us recognize the value of the CBC and
10     offer it the support it deserves.  Thank you.
11  977                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
12     you very much.
13  978                  MS PINSKY:  We have had several
14     people join us in the last five minutes.  I would like
15     to invite everyone again if they want to take a seat
16     around the table and join us in the discussion.
17  979                  The second presenter is Reverend
18     David Price.
20  980                  MR. PRICE:  Madam Chairman, I am
21     honoured to be able to be here this evening.  And my
22     comments echo in many ways that of the previous
23     speaker, Ms Nordhal, though we have never met.
24  981                  My major focus is on radio.  I am a
25     consumer and taxpayer for both television and radio but


 1     my own work takes me to be more of a consumer of CBC
 2     radio, both Radio One, Radio Two and also the service
 3     en français.
 4  982                  I have lived in six provinces of this
 5     nation.  I have lived on the Atlantic Ocean and in
 6     central Canada in the Prairies and here now in British
 7     Columbia.  And, for myself, CBC radio is the glue that
 8     brings us together.  It is a reflection of the nation
 9     as we are, a reflection of the nation of where we have
10     been and also where we are going.
11  983                  As far as I am concerned, CBC radio
12     is vitally important to the health of our nation and it
13     saddens me that in this time it appears that CBC radio
14     is being under funded and is decaying because of lack
15     of resourcing.  And I know it is not your role as the
16     CRTC, but I would hope that people will be animated to
17     move the pretty political process to restore funding to
18     the public broadcaster, for I believe it is sorely
19     needed.
20  984                  I am concerned about the future, how
21     well will CBC service in the days ahead?  I am
22     concerned that our nation is dumbing down, which means
23     that we are moving away from logical reflection to
24     another type of phase in our reality where we are
25     always emotionally responding to things and by stimuli


 1     and reasoned thought seems to be eroding.
 2  985                  I am afraid that we are coming to the
 3     time of a dark age and not a time of enlightenment, but
 4     at a time when we are looking in our midst to find our
 5     enemies since the fall of the Soviet Union.  And that
 6     is reflected oftentimes in talk radio in the private
 7     sector where there is a great deal of conservatism
 8     voiced on the radio.
 9  986                  I also see the same thing in the
10     print media and to a lesser degree into the visual
11     media of television.  But CBC in the midst of all of
12     this has managed to be a balanced reflector where it
13     does present various and alternate points of view and I
14     would hate to see this be eroded in the nation and I
15     want CBC to carry on with that.
16  987                  I feel a little awkward in this
17     difficult time for them because of their many strikes
18     that they are facing to be kicking them when they are
19     down.  But I am also concerned about duplication of
20     service, particularly with regard to Radio One.
21  988                  I live in the midst of the Fraser
22     valley, in Abbotsford, and I represent a group of
23     people from there who receive no CBC radio service
24     without putting up antennas or at least with a lot of
25     effort to receive CBC Radio One because it is not


 1     available in the Mission-Abbotsford area.  And yet it
 2     is a part of this province where there are 250,000
 3     people living there is a small repeater signal in
 4     Chilliwack and the AM signal does not reach strongly
 5     into our part of the Fraser Valley.
 6  989                  There is a duplication, however,
 7     because Victoria has an FM station of their own, an AM
 8     rebroadcasting on FM, plus CBC, CBU signal they overlay
 9     each other even though one is the Vancouver studio and
10     the other is the Victoria studio and so they get double
11     service and we do not get any service.  And I hope that
12     when the licence is renewed there will be some attempt
13     made to redefine the signal of CBU so that it comes
14     into the Fraser Valley in a stronger way so that the
15     250,000 people in the central Fraser Valley are served.
16  990                  I would also hope for an increase of
17     signal for Radio Two, the classical FM service and also
18     an improved signal for the service in French because
19     Abbotsford has the remnant of a French community but
20     they do not receive any radio service.
21  991                  As far as the future goes, and I said
22     earlier that it is the glue, I hope that CBC will also
23     be on the cutting edge of technological change. 
24     Digital radio is coming in Europe, it is coming into
25     the United States, it should be coming here and I hope


 1     that CBC can find resources to both broadcast in
 2     digital television and in digital radio.
 3  992                  It is a constant service or for our
 4     past, for our present and for our future and I hope it
 5     will continue to be strong in the new millennium. 
 6     Thank you.
 7  993                  CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
 8     you reverend, thank you.
 9  994                  MS PINSKY:  Mr. Hugh Nevin.
11  995                  MR. NEVIN:  I hope you do not mind my
12     also reading from a prepared script.  I was going to
13     make a few notes, then I realized that I might not have
14     this opportunity ever again.  I thought I better
15     something to refer to in case I forget to mention a
16     point or two.
17  996                  It might seem as though I am jumping
18     around, but I hope there is a continuous train of
19     thought or thread to my points which are not
20     necessarily in order of importance.  I will try to be
21     specific wherever I can.
22  997                  Most of my comments, criticisms,
23     questions have to do exclusively with radio.  I quit
24     watching CBC television for the same reason that I quit
25     watching television all together which is simply the


 1     commercial format.  I have difficulty concentrating now
 2     on any information, be it news, any entertainment which
 3     is constantly interrupted with a sales pitch.  In a
 4     sense you could say I have been spoiled over the years
 5     by CBC's non-commercial radio format.  And just a
 6     footnote in response to the argument that Canadian
 7     television content cannot survive without commercial
 8     advertising simply copying an obviously American style
 9     of programming and then changing the geography could
10     not qualify that as Canadian content in my book.
11  998                  From what I can tell there is
12     precious little different between Canadian and American
13     television.
14  999                  If I was allowed to offer one single
15     bit of advice to the producers of Canadian television
16     it would be to try to be as distinctive and as
17     un-American as possible.
18  1000                 I have given you a copy of the main
19     points that I am going to try to cover here.
20  1001                 The first one, local traffic
21     reporting, which is a subset of a larger issue of
22     regional reporting in general.  My question is why
23     bother to give continual traffic information when every
24     other commercial radio station does exactly the same
25     thing?  I would have thought CBC might want to take the


 1     higher ground, in other words try to get people out of
 2     their cars and on to rapid transit.
 3  1002                 I mean, this is a fundamental social
 4     urban problem we are talking about, is it not?  If CBC
 5     wants to deal with the traffic problem, would it not
 6     make more sense, would it not be more responsible to
 7     give out rapid transit departure and arrival times in
 8     the morning and afternoon?  It is incredibly boring to
 9     listen to even if you happen to be driving a car.
10  1003                 I might be exaggerating here, but
11     sometimes it feels as if the morning and afternoon
12     shows are one continuous traffic report, the "call
13     Marty at star 69" show, interrupted every now and then
14     with an interview.  Surely there are better reasons to
15     tune into CBC radio than to beat the traffic.
16  1004                 Number two, regional programming.  I
17     am divided on the issue of regional programming. 
18     Because Canada is so large, I am not convinced that all
19     the critical issues can be addressed properly without
20     top quality regional programming.
21  1005                 Some of the interviews on "Radio
22     Noon", for example, are as informative and entertaining
23     as anything broadcast nationally.  The power of the
24     informative interview cannot be overestimated,
25     something that CBC does particularly well.


 1  1006                 So once again, it is a relative thing
 2     and I would argue that when compared with commercial
 3     radio, CBC is head and shoulders above the rest.
 4  1007                 Three, sports, I have to declare my
 5     bias here, I am from the Noam Chomsky school of
 6     professional support.  I am convinced that sports
 7     coverage amounts to an enormous distraction where you
 8     have incredibly exotic detailed forgettable information
 9     which ultimately functions as fill.
10  1008                 The question is, why does CBC feel
11     obligated to devote that much time to sports, five
12     minutes discussing a groin injury or a trade, for
13     example, especially when many other commercial radio
14     stations cater to the sports crowd?
15  1009                 At one point I tried to look at this
16     question logically and wondered if, perhaps there is
17     not a hidden agenda behind sports coverage that I am
18     missing.  In other words, is part of the drive behind
19     sports coverage the jobs at stake?  Is the CBC
20     unconsciously protecting team owners, the people who
21     work in the stadiums, the huge investments tied up in
22     sports franchises all across the country? There is a
23     very deep level of indoctrination associated with
24     sports coverage that when you start to look closely is
25     completely illogical in my report.  I know that the


 1     Juneau report years ago stated that the fixation on
 2     sports especially hockey alienates millions of people.
 3  1010                 Number four, CBC's radio's larger
 4     function mandate, free trade, globalization, downsizing
 5     are all parts of the business agenda being aggressively
 6     pedaled by the federal government as a means of
 7     achieving a healthy society.
 8  1011                 What is really interesting is how
 9     this vision of the future is taken for granted now. 
10     You hear this again and again during interviews on
11     radio that supposedly offer disparate viewpoints from
12     members of the academic, corporate and political elites
13     of the expectation of the CBC is to allow for the
14     expression of view points that directly challenge
15     conventional wisdom, to expand the social discourse
16     wide enough so that many deeply held religious,
17     academic and political convictions are closely examined
18     and called to account.
19  1012                 Number five, when is the appropriate
20     or legitimate comparison in terms of standards and
21     quality?  I would argue that the short wave national
22     public radio comparison is the only meaningful
23     comparison.  BBC, Radio Netherlands, Deutsch Villa,
24     even Voice of America, short wave radio is one of the
25     best kept secrets of the modern information age.


 1  1013                 I would even go so far as to say that
 2     one is not qualified to render a criticism of radio
 3     until they have been exposed to what European short
 4     wave national radio has to offer.
 5  1014                 While I am on the subject of short
 6     wave radio, whoever thought up the over night program
 7     to rebroadcast the best of these European stations is a
 8     genius as far as I am concerned.  The only problem is
 9     that very few people are up at that time of the
10     morning.  I often wish that it could be scheduled at
11     some other time, say from 1 to 5 Sunday afternoons.
12  1015                 Six, the pop culture tidal wave and
13     the dumbing down of radio that the reverend referred
14     to, television culture has found its way into radio.
15     You can see this with a commensurate increase in
16     television coverage on radio.  Listen some time to just
17     how often the subject of discussion on radio is CBC
18     television programming or even the latest popular
19     television sitcom.
20  1016                 I know of the "Seinfeld" show not
21     from ever having seen a single episode, but through its
22     references on radio.  I am always amazed when CBC news
23     is given a plug during an afternoon show whenever I
24     hear a host informing the listener what to expect on
25     the evening news.  Do these people not realize that


 1     many people listen to the radio because they do not
 2     listen to television and that especially includes news
 3     coverage.
 4  1017                 The question is why would people with
 5     even the mildest scepticism treat news information
 6     seriously when it is utterly dependent on selling
 7     things for its sponsors.  Maybe I am missing something
 8     here.
 9  1018                 Perhaps the best example of what I
10     would call a TV mentality finding its way into the CBC
11     radio is the program "Definitely Not the Opera".  And I
12     admit I cannot stand the glib, superficial consciously
13     hip tone of the program.  Perhaps it would not be quite
14     so noticeable if it was one instead of three or four
15     hours long.
16  1019                 I do not expect CBC radio to cater to
17     what I would like to hear all the time and I appreciate
18     there are many different tastes and expectations people
19     have for radio but "Definitely Not the Opera" for my
20     money, is simply MTV on radio, a three-hour long
21     celebration of pop culture and a huge departure from
22     quality programming in my book.  For me it represents a
23     big hole on Saturday afternoons and represents the
24     dumbing down of radio.  The importing of one
25     superficial mentality from one medium to another.


 1  1020                 Radio drama, number seven, if I had
 2     to point to a weak link in CBC radio, it would be
 3     drama.  To get a sense of what high quality radio drama
 4     sounds like, you have to turn to the BBC, the
 5     presentation of some of the classics, for example, the
 6     Dickens novels.  I don't know if anyone caught Captain
 7     Curley's "Mandolin" in 13 installments recently, but I
 8     found myself transfixed with my ear up against the
 9     speaker to catch every word.
10  1021                 Recently CBC ran a weekly segment
11     called the "Dead Dog Cafe" which because of the frankly
12     terrible quality of acting did a terrible service not
13     only to the radio drama in general but to the
14     aboriginal community as well.
15  1022                 If the corporation is concerned about
16     providing high quality aboriginal content, they might
17     within the to determine why the program "Our Native
18     Land" was taken off the air years ago.  I would argue
19     that that show was highly informative and an original
20     creative presentation of aboriginal issues.
21  1023                 "Rumours and Borders", the long
22     running serial comedy the acting of which I always
23     thought was dreadful it reminded me of a cheap American
24     sitcom transferred into a radio format.  Has legions of
25     fans, some of whom I know, but what is interesting is


 1     that are they not familiar with high quality radio
 2     drama.  They are not aware of the existence of short
 3     wave radio, it is like the expression the land of the
 4     blind, ignorance is bliss.  The yardstick, the standard
 5     you use for comparison is the important thing.
 6  1024                 The Canadian content requirement.  I
 7     find the cheerleader approach to Canadian content a
 8     little embarrassing, quite frankly I am always
 9     surprised whenever there is a program, often a phone-in
10     program promoting the latest Canadian literature.
11  1025                 When I read a book the last thing I
12     am concerned about is the nationality of the author. 
13     Like any other art form a book should be read because
14     is good.  First and foremost there is an implicit
15     obligation between literature and patriotic duty.
16  1026                 At the risk of appearing unpatriotic,
17     I would argue that many celebrities, entertainers in a
18     sense get a free ride.  There seems to be a fear on the
19     part of the corporation being constructively critical
20     and let us be honest, there is some dreadful derivative
21     award winning material that only gets heard or seen
22     because of the fact that it is aggressively promoted
23     and marketed.  There is a merger between the music and
24     fashion industry that is cheapening talent in my book.
25  1027                 I would argue that in the head long


 1     rush to market Canadian talent we have lost our
 2     critical judgment along the way.  And I think in the
 3     long run this does a real disservice to the whole issue
 4     of standards and quality.  There seems to be an
 5     unconscious fear of offending the Canadian or artist
 6     particular establishment and appearing unpatriotic. 
 7     Often I get the feeling that we are attempting to
 8     out-do the Americans at their own game.
 9  1028                 The accusation of elitism.  I heard
10     someone say at one of the hearings I think it was
11     television he was referring to reminded him of a
12     perpetual test pattern.  If you extend that analogy to
13     CBC radio, I would argue that the situation is reversed
14     is 80 degrees.
15  1029                 One of the great ironies of the
16     information age with all its sophisticated technologies
17     is the overwhelming degree of uniformity.  I would
18     argue that this homogeneity is a reflection of the
19     marketing mentality itself, pop culture being the best
20     example, invading and devaluing the whole concept of
21     quality and substance.
22  1030                 I heard someone else during one of
23     the hearings use a booze analogy, something about
24     single malt whiskey and acquired taste.  If what he was
25     getting at was the subject of elitism, then one should


 1     never be apologetic about having elitist tastes in art
 2     and culture.  The best comment I have ever heard about
 3     elitism is that it should be directed at getting every
 4     one to become elitist at the same time.
 5  1031                 That brings me to the end of my
 6     points here.  Thanks.
 7     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 8  1032                 CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
 9     you very much, Mr. Nevin.
10  1033                 MS PINSKY:  Mr. Robert Kerr.
12  1034                 MR. KERR:  Thank you.  It is a
13     pleasure for me to be here it is a pleasure to speak
14     before the council.
15  1035                 Just a little bit of background to
16     kind of say where I am coming from.  I work within the
17     arts community in Vancouver I am the executive director
18     of the Coastal Jazz and Blues Society, which is a
19     non-profit society here in Vancouver.  We produce the
20     annual du Maurier International Jazz Festival in
21     Vancouver as well as a number of other events in
22     Vancouver throughout the year.
23  1036                 I also have a 20-year history in
24     radio, having been involved in university radio,
25     Vancouver co-op radio, and also having worked the for a


 1     couple of years at the late lamented CJAZ-FM.  So I
 2     have a real interest and passion for radio as well as I
 3     guess one could say a professional or cultural
 4     interest.
 5  1037                 One of the things as a result of
 6     working in the arts community, I've been lucky to -- we
 7     have been lucky to be able to collaborate with the CBC
 8     locally in terms of helping us to communicate to the
 9     public about different cultural events including the
10     jazz festival and as a result of that, it has been my
11     privilege I think to get inside the CBC to a certain
12     extent to actually meet the people who make it happen,
13     work with them, get inside the big monolith on Georgia
14     and Hamilton and kind of see how it works and see what
15     the facilities are.
16  1038                 As a result of being a listener and a
17     producer within the community and having different
18     perspectives, I think that there is no question in my
19     mind that one of the key things about the CBC is that
20     it is an integral component of Canadian cultural
21     policy, a real key tool in developing culture in
22     Canada.  And my huge concern -- I am just -- I don't
23     know, on the verge of outrage at the way that it is
24     just being dismantled and destroyed.
25  1039                 It just seems to me that we are


 1     squandering an incredible national resource here that
 2     has been built up for decades and we are at the point
 3     of bleeding it dry and you just have to walk through
 4     the building at 700 Hamilton Street and people's
 5     energies are just completely sapped.  Their morale is
 6     very, very low.  And one cannot blame them.
 7  1040                 I mean there may have been a time at
 8     the CBC where there were too many people with their
 9     hands on the dials and perhaps, you know, a certain
10     amount of overstaffing in terms of, you know,
11     production and we have heard the complaints from
12     commercial producers and commercial radio stations in
13     the past saying:  Well, there is five CBC operators for
14     every private sector operator.  I think that is an over
15     statement, but I think that is and now is -- the
16     pendulum has swung far too much in the other direction,
17     to the point where the programs that still are on the
18     air are just barely hanging on because the people who
19     were producing them were stretched beyond the limit. 
20     And it is not only, I think, a lack of utilization of
21     the personnel and the human resources there in taxing
22     the human resources, I think it is what is happening
23     now as well is this incredible underutilization of the
24     fiscal resources that the CBC owns.  There are
25     remarkable studios within the building at 700 Hamilton


 1     Street.  It blows my mind quite honestly, the quality
 2     of the equipment, the quality of the equipment,
 3     gorgeous concert grand pianos and they sit silent most
 4     of the time.  And we have a remarkably vibrant artistic
 5     community that is crying to be heard and there are so
 6     few opportunities for local artists and local artists
 7     in every region of this country to have their voice
 8     heard through media, whether that is radio or
 9     television or, you know, I mean the Internet is helping
10     democratize things, but it is still difficult to
11     communicate on any kind of a large scale.
12  1041                 And the CBC has the resources and
13     they have the physical resources they have the studios,
14     the talent is out there.  I think a lot of the talent
15     at CBC right now has been burned out.  And if many of
16     the people have left simply because they cannot deal
17     with the situation, they cannot put up with the
18     situation that they are being forced to work under.
19  1042                 If we are serious about carrying on
20     the national resource that is the contribution and
21     making it work, we have to really reinvest in it.  And
22     I think that means reinvesting in the people and, you
23     know, the creative energies that make it all work.
24  1043                 I really think that there needs to be
25     an injection of new blood, if you will, into the CBC. 


 1     There is an awful lot of creative people in this
 2     country and, you know, great ideas and I think many of
 3     those ideas, you know, die on the vine.  There are not
 4     the opportunities certainly in commercial radio and
 5     commercial television for anything truly interesting to
 6     get out there.  It definitely appeals to the lowest
 7     common denominator.
 8  1044                 And with the CBC, we have this
 9     opportunity and it is been proven in the past that we
10     can create really great programming.  Canadians can put
11     together amazing productions in both radio and
12     television that are award winning, that capture
13     audiences and that do not have to pander, you know, to
14     the commercial bottom line.
15  1045                 You know, commercial radio in
16     Vancouver is abysmal.  It is really abysmal.  It serves
17     like a really narrow segment of the population and
18     everyone's chasing the same, you know, few corporate
19     advertisers to underwrite their programming and, you
20     know, it is dictated by program directors to look at
21     "Billboard Magazine" and try to figure out what are the
22     top hits in pop or in country or in adult oriented
23     radio or something really amorphous like that.
24  1046                 And it is really -- commercial radio
25     is definitely not the kind of model we should try to


 1     apply to the CBC of the CBC, in my estimation can serve
 2     an enormous segment of the population that falls out of
 3     that target audience of commercial radio and I think
 4     there is a huge audience out there.
 5  1047                 There is an enormous audience and
 6     people look to the CBC for that and kind of expect it.
 7  1048                 And I think it's what is happening
 8     now is people are turning into the CBC and saying, you
 9     know, it really does not sound as good as it used to
10     and the programming, you know, used to be better, or
11     there used to be more diversity on the CBC, used to be
12     more relevant to my community.
13  1049                 And I think the reason that people
14     are feeling that way and the programming is suffering
15     is clearly because of the cuts.  There is no question
16     about it.  There has to be a strategic plan applied to
17     the CBC that really looks to the big picture and does
18     not just look at the bottom line and looks at how to
19     move to thing forward into the next century and to take
20     advantage of it.  I mean Sheila Copps has spent a lot
21     of time and energy, you know, focusing on the magazine
22     industry of late.  She could put a heck of a lot of
23     time and energy into the CBC and I think produce much
24     stronger results for Canadian culture and Canadian
25     identity, quote/unquote, as a result of it.


 1  1050                 It really is a cultural tool and I do
 2     not think we need to pander to the Americans, I do not
 3     think we need to copy the Americans and quite frankly I
 4     do not think we need to be afraid of the Americans as
 5     far as their culture and music and popular art forms
 6     are concerned.  I welcome American culture in many
 7     different ways because there is a huge diversity that
 8     falls outside of mainstream American media and I think
 9     we can reflect the strengths of our community through
10     the CBC.
11  1051                 In terms of the issue of national and
12     regional broadcasting and regional programming, I think
13     there is a real lack of regional programming currently,
14     particularly on radio and, well, television as well
15     obviously.
16  1052                 I think much more could be done
17     regionally to reflect the diversity of our country, the
18     diversity of our communities and I think that extends
19     to different cultural organizations, different
20     community groups and that it relates to CBC Radio Two
21     most of the programs are national, almost all of the
22     programs are national programs.  And they are
23     reasonably good quality programs, but there is a real
24     sameness about it.
25  1053                 I think that we can look to the


 1     regions to provide more diversity and more diversity of
 2     styles.  I have got nothing against classical music but
 3     I have declared my bias for jazz and there is an
 4     incredible amount of music that falls outside the
 5     parameters of western European classical music.
 6  1054                 And I think that many, many people
 7     are interested in hearing that kind of diversity.  And
 8     if CBC wants to reach out to people under the age of 50
 9     and to people, you know, of different ethnic and
10     cultural backgrounds, I think they have to start
11     looking really seriously at, you know, the broad scope
12     of programming they are presenting.
13  1055                 And I know there are many fine music
14     producers of all shapes and sizes that would love the
15     opportunity to produce a regional or a national program
16     on CBC and obviously there has to be some coherence
17     about it, but I really think that that issue of
18     diversity should be addressed.  And I think that is
19     happening also as a result of the hard times that is
20     hitting the CBC is that it is becoming too
21     conservative.  I do not see the CBC taking the same
22     kind of risks that it used to or the kind of risks that
23     they should be taking.  They should be taking chances. 
24     They should not be playing it safe.  And, you know, it
25     is the forum for taking risks and making mistakes.  You


 1     do not want to produce subpar programming but you can
 2     produce programming that maybe it is a little too far
 3     out there or on the edge but take a chance with it and
 4     see where it goes, try to develop something and, you
 5     know, maybe it is not prime time, but a good example
 6     would be a show, "Nightlines", you know, David Wisden's
 7     program, great show, tonnes of people listen to it and
 8     it is not there any more.
 9  1056                 I do not know the exact reason why
10     that is, but I would suspect that the cuts have had
11     something to do with that.  And there are a lot of
12     different programs that have suffered as a result of
13     that.
14  1057                 Certainly the number of live
15     recordings at different Canadian cultural events, music
16     events have suffered greatly because of the cuts and
17     that is where you hear what is going on, what is out
18     there.
19  1058                 I have probably rambled on long
20     enough, but I believe in the CBC and what it means to
21     this country and I hope we have the guts to support it.
22  1059                 CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
23     Certainly there is no doubt in our mind that you are a
24     supporter.
25  1060                 MS PINSKY:  Mr. Sid Tan.


 1  1061                 CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Good
 2     evening, sir.
 4  1062                 MR. TAN:  I would like to thank the
 5     commissioners for the opportunity to address you in
 6     person in this beautiful City of Vancouver.  I would
 7     also like to thank all the folks who encouraged me to
 8     come to this public consultation and I would especially
 9     like to thank Margaret Vogel and Bob Stark for the
10     assistance they have lent me on this issue and other
11     issues.
12  1063                 In many countries, public
13     consultation participation for what passes for public
14     consultation imperils your existence, particularly if
15     you disagree with the government.  I am pleased to be
16     at these consultations because I am a Canadian and I
17     wish to contribute.  We are in freedom where freedom of
18     speech and ideas are Charter rights.  It is my public
19     duty to participate and to build a better Canada.
20  1064                 However, I approach these
21     consultations with a wariness.  I have seen over the
22     past two years the CRTC hand control of community
23     television to corporations, while I ask the
24     commissioners to protect and strengthen community
25     television and to assist our local television


 1     production cooperative in the downtown east side.  I
 2     often ask myself if the C in CRTC stands for corporate
 3     or Canadian.
 4  1065                 Today it is about the Canadian
 5     Broadcasting Corporation, Canada's public broadcaster. 
 6     The service that you and I pay taxes for.  It should be
 7     noted that in countries with totalitarian governments,
 8     civilian and military, basic human rights are lacking
 9     and the public broadcaster is very often the state
10     broadcaster as well.
11  1066                 My comments about the CBC will be
12     brief.  There is a great need for a national public
13     service broadcaster as there is for local community
14     broadcasters.  By this I mean committed public funds
15     without application of commercial principles and
16     program determination.  If this means supporting a well
17     funded national CBC and a volunteer driven community
18     television in the downtown east side, I would not
19     disagree.
20  1067                 But we are talking about the CBC and
21     I said I would be brief.  Simply put, CBC radio is
22     wonderful.  I listen to CBC AM all the time.  English
23     language CBC TV has too many commercials.  I will
24     discuss this later.
25  1068                 I never watch or listen to CBC French


 1     because I do not understand French.  However, I am
 2     prepared to support the idea of a national bilingual
 3     public service broadcaster with my tax dollars.  I am
 4     also prepared to participate, but how can I?
 5  1069                 In my opinion, the Canadian
 6     Broadcasting Corporation, the idea has not been able to
 7     build on the public support and willingness to
 8     participate across the country.  Locally, when Rogers
 9     community -- when Rogers Cablesystems closed their
10     Vancouver neighbourhood television office, community
11     groups and activists volunteered their time to reach a
12     new partnership.  Together we formed the CMES, the
13     community media education society and ICTE, independent
14     community television, so that broadcast television
15     would always be accessible to our community, the
16     downtown east side.
17  1070                 How can supporters of a national
18     public broadcaster contribute their skills, their
19     talents and resources toward a better broadcasting
20     corporation?  I would like to thank Rogers Cablesystems
21     for entering into this partnership to strengthen
22     community television particularly Vera Puccini, Rob
23     Carver, Nancy Anderson, Ron Fischer, Tracey Major, Anne
24     Hickey and Jim Doran.
25  1071                 I wish to put these in for the record


 1     because it seems in these public consultations that is
 2     all that remains when they are finished, a record.
 3  1072                 I have made the case for community
 4     television over the years and they are in the record. 
 5     And I hope that the CRTC and its commissioners will
 6     look at that some day.
 7  1073                 As I said, CBC TV has too many
 8     commercials and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
 9     has no way for the public to participate.  This is not
10     surprising, considering the decline of public service
11     broadcasting is a local -- is a logical consequence of
12     the worldwide adoption of market and commercial values
13     as superior regulators of the global economy,
14     globalization and unsustainable community economy which
15     belittles and attacks public service institutions and
16     values.
17  1074                 This corporate political economy
18     drives our democracy towards a system where capital is
19     no longer political and widespread public cynicism is
20     the norm.  I believe we have this now with the advance
21     of APEC, the MAI and NAFTA.
22  1075                 This is an attack on our democracy
23     and strengthening national and community public service
24     broadcasters could, perhaps, correct a situation.  It
25     is certainly worth the try.


 1  1076                 It is reasonable that public
 2     participation and accountability to a legal citizenry
 3     should be the first and foremost in the consideration
 4     of a public service broadcast system.
 5  1077                 Is it possible for these issues to be
 6     discussed in the public arena when the commercial media
 7     system is so interlinked with this corporate political
 8     economy?  Will we hear issues of media reform?
 9  1078                 As I said, too many commercials, no
10     way to participate.  I ask the CRTC and the Canadian
11     Broadcasting Corporation to consider how citizens can
12     be involved in media reform in an environment of
13     corporate consumerism also known as globalization and
14     the neo-liberal agenda.  I believe a commitment to
15     actual participatory democracy requires issues of
16     broadcasting and media ownership and control to be
17     public issues subject to public examination and public
18     debate.
19  1079                 Again, does the C in CRTC stand for
20     corporate or Canadian?
21  1080                 With what I have seen done with
22     community television in the past year, I fear for the
23     Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.  However, I have
24     belief and hope in Canada and its people.  We Canadians
25     are the final judge and we can make our effort work.


 1  1081                 Canadians, I believe, will support
 2     national and public service broadcasters if we can ever
 3     get our message out.  Thank you.
 4     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 5  1082                 CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
 6     you, sir.
 7  1083                 MS PINSKY:  Mr. Douglas Hogg.
 9  1084                 MR. HOGG:  Thank you for giving me
10     this opportunity to speak.  I have not taken an
11     opportunity previously to stand up and speak publicly
12     on a matter of public policy.
13  1085                 I think I was motivated doubly this
14     time.  I had written the 1-800 number from an ad on the
15     radio, a commercial radio station and but it was the
16     comments of the disk jockey announcer that really
17     motivated me.  He said, "Can you imagine that on the
18     CBC they get away with all that talk, talk, talk, no
19     commercial station could ever get away with that."  And
20     I felt like phoning him up and saying, "That is the
21     point.  That is exactly the point."
22  1086                 Now, you can gather from that that I
23     do listen to commercial radio when I want my mind to go
24     to sleep, when I want to be dumbed down, as the
25     reverend said, and I do not restrict myself to any one


 1     of them, I have four or five, I have to because I have
 2     several children and each one listens to a different
 3     station, I listen to different stations.  That is fine. 
 4     But when I want to be informed, when I want to be
 5     stimulated, when I want to be smarter when I finish
 6     than when I started, there is only one place, there is
 7     only one choice.
 8     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 9  1087                 MR. HOGG:  Radio One or Radio Two.
10     And it is not CBC TV, I can assure you of that.
11  1088                 Now, I asked my two teenage sons I
12     told them I was coming here and I said what do you
13     think I should say to this commission and the 14 year
14     old said:  We need more of the "Royal Canadian
15     Airfarce" I am with him on that.
16  1089                 And the 16 year old said he wants
17     programs which explore political issues of the day but
18     he wants them where the politicians have to answer, not
19     go around in circles.
20  1090                 I did not think he was a very good
21     student, but he is obviously doing much better than I
22     thought.
23  1091                 I am not sure which program would
24     have more comedy to it.
25  1092                 Now, the first question that was


 1     suggested we address was how well does the CBC fulfil
 2     its role.  Well, I thought about that and then I
 3     thought:  "I am going to find out what its role is or
 4     what the corporation thinks its role is." Now, I got on
 5     the website, I got on the Internet.  I went around the
 6     website, I did not find anything that told me what the
 7     CBC thought its role was.  So I cannot measure it gets
 8     that against that.  Nothing that resembles a mission
 9     statement.
10  1093                 So I said the next best thing, get on
11     the telephone, you get press one for this, press two
12     for that, eventually you get to where it says there is
13     no new information on that and it hangs up on you.  So
14     I think that the CBC is in serious trouble because they
15     do not know where they are going and that is reflected
16     first in television and perhaps in some other areas.
17  1094                 I have found the secret to the
18     funding crisis.  I will get to that.
19  1095                 It is obvious from the presentation
20     that is have been made here that CBC serves different
21     purposes for different people and I think that is
22     wonderful.  There is a little tension between different
23     people because they have different ideas about what
24     they want.  That is great if the CBC can meet that.
25  1096                 What I can say is that if you do not


 1     like "DNTO", then listen to the opera.  Sometimes I do. 
 2     And sometimes I listen to "DNTO" because I want someone
 3     intelligent to present to me what my kids are listening
 4     to and I can't go to MTV and listen to it because it
 5     gives me a headache.  It is a little fun, I listen to
 6     in an hour on Saturday when the opera is not to my
 7     liking because I do not understand the language or
 8     whatever.
 9  1097                 So, but I have to tell you that over
10     the years, I am beginning to like opera.  And it is
11     taken a long time I am sorry, Mr. Kerr seems to have
12     left, but maybe I will learn to like jazz eventually if
13     we get enough of that on there.
14  1098                 I grew up as did Ms Nordhal, I grew
15     up with the CBC on.  And it is actually a unifying
16     influence in the home.  Not only do my children know
17     what is on CBC radio, my parents do, too.  I can talk
18     to them about characters.  They love Allan McPhee. 
19     Well, you know, he is a little old for me, but you
20     know, I love Fire Side Al.  You know, and my kids, they
21     like "Airfarce".
22  1099                 And they know about Mike from
23     Canmore.  And I hope he comes to see you in Calgary.
24  1100                 This is the kind of thing that
25     families, we do not literally sit around the Marconi as


 1     in the painting, but it is that sense that we are
 2     together in something, we can listen to something
 3     together and nobody is getting a headache and nobody is
 4     getting offended by the language and nobody is telling
 5     you what to think.  They are just presenting to you
 6     something that is very interesting, new, that is on a
 7     family basis.
 8  1101                 But also, this happens across the
 9     country.  I have lived in four provinces.  CBC is there
10     in all of them.  When you -- regional programming may
11     differ, but some of that regional programming is picked
12     up and it is interesting to have the sense of Canada
13     that is presented when you listen to what are the
14     concerns of people in St. John's Newfoundland and what
15     are the concerns of people in Etobicoke that -- only
16     the CBC is doing.  The other stations give you the
17     13-second sound bite.  That is not helpful.  13 seconds
18     of news, followed by one minute of ads, that is not
19     helpful.
20     --- Applause / Applaudissements
21  1102                 MR. HOGG:  I was going to say that
22     something was once said that CBC is too centrist and I
23     think that is a concern that may happen if the dollars
24     keep getting cut because you have to program centrally.
25  1103                 I have not noticed a particular


 1     centrist bias on the CBC programming that I listen to
 2     on the radio.
 3  1104                 For a good view point on that, I
 4     would just suggest you listen to the program "The Great
 5     Eastern", which was aired two weeks ago in which the
 6     supposed Broadcasting Corporation of Newfoundland
 7     discussed all of the Newfoundlanders who were employed
 8     by the CBC and how they are biased and they gave too
 9     much coverage to Newfoundland issues.
10  1105                 If you live in central Canada you
11     will enjoy it even more than I did, I am sure.
12  1106                 Now, I just want to comment about CBC
13     TV because I would like others have expressed here, I
14     have stopped watching TV and CBC TV is not the
15     exception.  I used to watch CBC news, the regulations
16     regarding Canadian content went up so what they did is
17     stretch 15 minutes of news to 90 minutes and they
18     started moving it around and they lost me and they
19     seemed to have more ads, there we seem to be in a
20     centrist bias.  So I like the half-hour news format on
21     the radio.  I get what I need to know.
22  1107                 It may be that the TV service is a
23     more expensive service to run.  It would seem that that
24     would be reasonable and it may be that the idea of
25     having a commercial component to it originated because


 1     of the expense of providing TV to locations where it
 2     was not commercially viable.  If that is the case or if
 3     there is some rationale for the commercialization of
 4     it, I think that the day has passed.  We're now in the
 5     days of satellites.  CBC is not the only station
 6     available in any location in Canada that I am aware of. 
 7     You may hear differently.  Therefore, I do not think
 8     that there is any justification for having a commercial
 9     content on that service whatsoever.
10  1108                 I would like to see a non-commercial
11     TV service that is like the PBS service in the United
12     States and is perhaps linked to them, sharing programs
13     and resources.  I would like to see a service that
14     perhaps is funded by fees on the other commercial
15     services so that they might be released from some of
16     their Cancom regulations and let CBC take the lead roll
17     there and then CBC can market its programs to other
18     like-minded services such as the BBC, such as PBS, the
19     Australian broadcasting corporation, in much the way
20     that PBS does now they have an excellent service and we
21     know that Canadians support those stations because
22     those border stations tell us that 30 to 40 per cent of
23     their contributions come from Canadians.  Surveys tell
24     us that Canadians are big supporters, they are willing
25     to pay to have quality service.  I do not think many


 1     Canadians are willing to pay to have CTV today.
 2  1109                 My suggestion is that either make CBC
 3     TV relevant or get rid of it.  And when we get rid of
 4     it, give the money to CBC radio because they are doing
 5     a good job and they will continue to do a good job as
 6     long as we support them.  Thank you for listening to me
 7     today.
 8  1110                 CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
 9     you, Mr. Hogg.
10  1111                 MS PINSKY:  Ms Elsie Jang.
12  1112                 MS JANG:  Thank you for the
13     opportunity to speak to you tonight.  My comments and
14     views largely pertain to CBC radio.  I have to tell you
15     that I really enjoyed the CBC radio.  I used to be a
16     real fan of AM, but now as they call it Radio Two I
17     find that I am tuning into that a lot.
18  1113                 I think I was first introduced to the
19     CBC at another time when I was going to Simon Fraser
20     and I would then have the opportunity to listen to
21     Peter Gzosky in the morning and I very much enjoyed the
22     exposure, I suppose, to the various areas of Canada and
23     to listen to him as he spoke to people from the
24     Maritimes and things.
25  1114                 I really have very fond memories of


 1     that.  And so I think that I see the CBC as knitting
 2     together or weaving the various strands of the country.
 3  1115                 As someone who came from an immigrant
 4     background, I also found the CBC at that time able to
 5     fill in for me, I suppose either Canadian content or
 6     various bits of Canadiana, things that you may normally
 7     learn at home, but I obviously did not learn them.  So
 8     in that respect I appreciate the CBC radio as well.
 9  1116                 As the other -- the previous speaker
10     talked about Allan McPhee, I always think of jelly gin
11     when I think of him now, or whatever.
12  1117                 And "As It Happens", I get a chuckle
13     out of their so many miles or whatever from reading.
14  1118                 I guess, on another note, and this
15     would have been years ago, I remember they would
16     broadcast and I think this is on Saturdays morning, but
17     "Something from Old Crow" and I think it was Josie,
18     some -- I don't know, a native or -- I would enjoy
19     those.
20  1119                 So there were a number of things that
21     I think that the CBC is not doing as much any more and
22     I do not want to just get sentimental and hearken back,
23     well we should always do these things.  I think what
24     they are doing well now, I really enjoy Stuart McLean. 
25     I believe that he is a very good story teller.  He is a


 1     good writer.  I don't know which one takes precedence
 2     but he is very good at what he does.  I miss Clyde
 3     Gilmore as I am sure many do.  I really appreciate the
 4     research that goes into the pieces on Sunday mornings. 
 5     And I like the ideas program.
 6  1120                 I think the other thing I would like
 7     to say about the CBC is the ethnicity issue I also
 8     looked at some of these questions and I suppose in
 9     trying to respond to the last one, what role should the
10     CBC play in the presentation of programming, in trying
11     to answer that, I feel that with the changing
12     demographics in Canada, the one thing I would really
13     like to see more of is more ethnicity and that can
14     take, I think, a number of concepts.
15  1121                 One particular program that I
16     remember hearing in 1996 and this was a Thanksgiving
17     Day, and it was on the radio and I found it absolutely
18     captivating.  It was a story about a Japanese writer. 
19     I found out that he, in '94 won a Nobel Prize for
20     literature.  The story, the way it was being related
21     as, was, as I said, really quite mesmerizing.  But it
22     was about this writer and how his life is and he and
23     his wife had a son who was I think hearing impaired. 
24     And they talked about that and how they discovered that
25     he was able to hear and he is now a musician or a


 1     composer of some note.  And I thought that that was a
 2     very, very apartment story to hear on Thanksgiving Day
 3     and it was a very moving story.
 4  1122                 I would like to just comment in terms
 5     of other things.  I agree with, I think, an earlier
 6     speaker when he talked about the Saturday Radio One
 7     programming.  I do not particularly like it either, so
 8     I like the other gentleman, I sometimes give the opera
 9     a listen, but then maybe that is one when you could
10     listen to your CDs or you are out doing your things on
11     Saturday but maybe that is when they could do some of
12     their world music programming.  I really think there is
13     room for world music to build that in.
14  1123                 I also look to the CBC to be
15     different from the commercial broadcasters.  I noticed,
16     for example, recently with the passing of Jack Webster,
17     there was scarcely a mention on some of the other
18     programs because we particularly listen to some of the
19     news to see how they would address it.  There was
20     hardly anything to acknowledge this person whereas the
21     CBC, despite the strike, they did give him some time to
22     recognize this person.
23  1124                 I am also concerned with the news at
24     times.  During this past year or maybe six months ago,
25     during the Clinton issue I was concerned a number of


 1     times when the CBC repeatedly -- and I think this was
 2     on radio, would lead off with news about Clinton.  To
 3     do with the Lewinsky thing.  I mean, I do not mind if
 4     it is Clinton with a world affair item, but as a
 5     Canadian, I just did not feel I wanted to buy into
 6     that.
 7  1125                 I also feel, as someone else
 8     mentioned, that perhaps the CBC is getting too safe and
 9     conservative.  I have noticed that the "Cross-Country
10     Checkup", I used to rather enjoy listening to it and I
11     don't anymore.  I find that their questions are too --
12     they are way too pat and they feed into had a
13     mentality, a line of thinking that I find does not
14     really serve as well.
15  1126                 I guess as a final comment I remember
16     in the 1970s, somewhere in the 1970s there was a
17     mandate I believe by the CRTC that CBC should be
18     devoting more to Canadian content and there were a lot
19     of moans and groans about, "Oh, gosh, we do not want to
20     hear any more Glen Campbell or whatever."
21  1127                 And yet I am wondering if there
22     cannot be, if there is some connection between that
23     ruling and the fact that today, what is it, 50 or 20
24     years later that so many Canadian artists are now
25     walking away with awards, be it Shania Twain or Alannis


 1     Morrisette, or Celine Dion.  They are walking away with
 2     awards, not in Canada, but in the United States.  Is
 3     there a connection?
 4  1128                 There are things that we moan and
 5     grown about, but we need to look at what the effects
 6     will be 10 or 20 years down the road.
 7  1129                 In conclusion, then, I would like to
 8     say, as a taxpayer, I will always willingly give my
 9     money to the CBC, particularly in connection with the
10     radio programming.  I am not so crazy about the TV, but
11     I guess like the other gentleman said, I, too, like the
12     "Airfarce".
13     --- Applause / Applaudissements
14  1130                 CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
15     you.  So we will put you down as a supporter, too.
16  1131                 MS PINSKY:  Madame Nicole Hennessy.
18  1132                 M. PAQUIN: Madame Nicole Hennessy ne
19     peut être ici ce soir, je suis Alain Paquin du Conseil
20     scolaire, là, c'est moi qui lirai la présentation.
21  1133                 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Bonsoir.
22  1134                 M. PAQUIN: Bonsoir.
23  1135                 Alors, le Conseil scolaire
24     francophone de la Colombie-Britannique a été créé par
25     le gouvernement de la Colombie-Britannique le 2


 1     novembre 1995, dans le but d'offrir des programmes et
 2     des services éducatifs valorisant le plein
 3     épanouissement et l'identité culturelle des apprenantes
 4     et apprenants francophones de la Province.
 5  1136                 De plus, le Conseil s'engage à
 6     participer activement au développement de la
 7     collectivité francophone de la Colombie-Britannique.
 8  1137                 Le Conseil scolaire a la
 9     responsabilité du programme francophone offert dans
10     cinquante établissements à travers la province. 
11     Quoique dix d'entre ses programmes soient à ce jour
12     offerts dans des écoles francophones homogènes, la
13     majorité côtoie le programme d'immersion et, ou, le
14     programme anglophone.
15  1138                 Il y a, au total, vingt-cinq
16     programmes du niveau élémentaire, vingt-trois
17     programmes du niveau secondaire et deux écoles qui
18     combinent les deux cycles.  Selon les statistiques du
19     ministère de l'Éducation, près de 2 900 élèves
20     fréquentent le programme francophone en
21     Colombie-Britannique, ce qui représente une
22     augmentation substantielle de 18 % depuis l'année
23     scolaire précédente.
24  1139                 Les prévisions du Conseil scolaire
25     francophone en terme d'effectif-élèves permettent


 1     d'estimer la population étudiante aux alentours de
 2     5 000 ou 6 000 élèves d'ici cinq ans.
 3  1140                 Alors que les premiers conseillers et
 4     les premières conseillères scolaires définissaient la
 5     mission du Conseil scolaire en 1996, ils et elles ont
 6     consciemment inclus les notions de valorisation de
 7     l'identité culturelle des apprenantes et des apprenants
 8     francophones, ainsi que celles d'une participation
 9     active au développement de la communauté francophone de
10     la Province.
11  1141                 Cet engagement signifie que le
12     Conseil scolaire croit fermement qu'il est nécessaire
13     de développer des partenariats avec tous les organismes
14     qui se donnent pour mission la promotion de la culture
15     française afin d'enrichir l'environnement de l'élève.
16  1142                 J'aimerais remercier le CRTC et les
17     commissaires présents ce soir, d'avoir permis au
18     Conseil scolaire francophone de participer à cette
19     consultation publique afin de témoigner de l'importance
20     du rôle de la Société Radio-Canada dans l'éducation des
21     élèves et de préciser ses besoins et ses attentes en
22     terme de programmation et d'acitivité régionale ou
23     locale.
24  1143                 En terme de programmation jeunesse à
25     la télévision et à la radio, j'aimerais souligner


 1     l'impact positif des émissions produites en
 2     collaboration avec les écoles et qui mettent les élèves
 3     à contribution.  L'émission télévisuelle "Clandestin"
 4     est un bon exemple, puisqu'elle est produite avec la
 5     participation des élèves au niveau du texte, de la mise
 6     en scène et du jeu devant les caméras.
 7  1144                 De plus, des initiatives spéciales
 8     entourant les émissions radio telles que "275 Allo et
 9     275 Ados" sont également bien reçues et contribuent de
10     manière significative à la promotion des produits de la
11     Société Radio-Canada auprès du jeune public francophone
12     de la Colombie-Britannique.
13  1145                 D'ailleurs, le Conseil scolaire
14     collabore à la promotion de ces émissions et de ces
15     initiatives spéciales à travers le réseau des
16     programmes francophones.  Cependant, il est déplorable
17     de constater que ni la télévision ni la radio de la
18     Société Radio-Canada n'est diffusée sur l'ensemble de
19     la Province, privant de ce fait, une partie des jeunes
20     des bénéfices et des services offerts par le diffuseur
21     public national.  Le Conseil scolaire francophone de la
22     Colombie-Britannique se joint aux autres intervenants
23     pour demander une diffusion complète et équitable à
24     travers la Province.
25  1146                 Malheureusement, suite aux dernières


 1     coupures, la radio de la Société Radio-Canada en
 2     Colombie-Britannique a retiré de sa programmation deux
 3     éléments excessivement significatifs pour les élèves
 4     des programmes francophones: la diffusion de l'émission
 5     "Micro midi" en direct d'une école à l'occasion de la
 6     semaine de la francophonie et le jeu radiophonique de
 7     l'émission du matin, "Le grand défi".
 8  1147                 Malgré les efforts et les
 9     partenariats existants entre le Conseil scolaire et la
10     Société Radio-Canada pour la préparation de questions
11     reliées au sujet abordé dans les salles de classe et la
12     coordination d'équipes d'élèves pour participer au
13     grand défi, il semble y avoir un manque de ressources
14     trop important à la Société pour assurer la mise en
15     onde de cette activité qui remportait un certain succès
16     auprès des jeunes et même de leurs parents.
17  1148                 Ce jeu radiophonique plaisait
18     particulièrement à la clientèle adolescente qui figure
19     parmi ses auditoires plus difficiles à intéresser. 
20     Nous souhaitons que ce genre d'activité jeunesse soit
21     institué à nouveau à la radio.  Il fut regrettable de
22     voir s'arrêter le jeu questionnaire "Génies en herbe"
23     au moment même où le Conseil scolaire francophone
24     pouvait collaborer, afin de faciliter la représentation
25     des élèves de la Colombie-Britannique.


 1  1149                 Le jeu "Flip-Flop" a remplacé depuis
 2     peu "Génies en herbe" et ne connaît pas encore la même
 3     notoriété que son prédécesseur.  Un exercice de
 4     promotion du jeu et de recrutement des participantes et
 5     participants à travers tout le Canada sont nécessaires.
 6  1150                 La Société Radio-Canada devrait faire
 7     un effort supplémentaire afin d'assurer la
 8     participation d'élèves de la Province, ici, aux
 9     sessions d'enregistrement qui ont lieu à Québec, et
10     prévoir des sessions d'enregistrement à travers le
11     pays.
12  1151                 Quoique l'équipe de la salle des
13     nouvelles de la Société Radio-Canada semble pouvoir
14     faire des tours de force afin de couvrir au meileur de
15     leurs ressources, les événements d'actualité, la venue
16     du Conseil scolaire francophone, un organisme qui
17     oeuvre sur l'ensemble de la Province, impose également
18     de nouvelles demandes à la structure actuelle de la
19     Société Radio-Canada, ici, en Colombie-Britannique.
20  1152                 Il nous semble nécessaire et
21     important de souligner le manque de ressources pour
22     assurer une couverture adéquate des événements, et ce,
23     malgré la bonne volonté et les réseaux de communication
24     créés de part et d'autre pour faciliter la coordination
25     des interventions.


 1  1153                 Les reportages issus de la salle de
 2     nouvelles à Vancouver et de son journaliste affecté à
 3     Victoria, déterminent la représentation régionale à
 4     l'intérieur des émissions de nouvelles nationales.  Il
 5     est évident que cette représentation est insuffisante,
 6     que ce soit pour l'émission de nouvelles nationales ou
 7     pour toute autre émission diffusée sur le réseau
 8     national.
 9  1154                 Le réseau de l'information RDI est
10     toujours dans une situation périlleuse ici en
11     Colombie-Britannique puisqu'il n'est pas diffusé par
12     tous les câblodistributeurs et parce que ceux-ci ayant
13     l'amabilité de le diffuser, le font sur des canaux
14     logés aux extrémités des prismes affectant de manière
15     sérieuse la qualité de l'image.
16  1155                 Dans d'autres cas, la position du
17     canal est si élevée, le nombre au-delà de 48, qu'il
18     devient impossible pour les détenteurs de téléviseurs
19     vieux de plus de cinq ans de capter RDI.
20  1156                 Bien que l'on tente de nous rassurer
21     en prétendant déjà depuis plusieurs années, que la
22     technologie numérique éliminera ce problème, nous
23     estimons qu'il est de la responsabilité des dirigeants
24     de notre société d'État de voir à l'intérêt de tous et
25     de demander une licence de diffusion obligatoire.


 1  1157                 Rappelons que RDI demeure à ce jour
 2     le seul canal de nouvelles télévisées en français et
 3     mode continue.  Il faudrait faire davantage la
 4     promotion des émissions de RDI pour les jeunes comme,
 5     par exemple, "Le bulletin des jeunes est branché".
 6  1158                 Notez que le Conseil scolaire
 7     francophone va appuyer les demandes déposées par la SRC
 8     et ses partenaires pour la mise en onde du réseau de
 9     l'Histoire, du réseau de l'Économie, ainsi que du
10     réseau des Arts.  Nous avons signaler pour ces trois
11     projets l'importance de la présence d'une
12     représentation régionale de la programmation jeunesse,
13     et surtout, d'une diffusion obligatoire.
14  1159                 En terminant, il faut souligner
15     l'immense collaboration offerte en terme de service
16     d'information publique, que ce soit via les chroniques
17     bi-mensuelles du Conseil scolaire dans le cadre de
18     l'émission "Micro midi", via une contribution à
19     l'émission de fin de semaine, "La grande balade", ou
20     encore, par la diffusion du calendrier d'activités
21     communautaires ou par la diffusion d'information de
22     nature urgente concernant le fonctionnement du
23     transport scolaire et des écoles lors d'intempéries.
24  1160                 Le Conseil scolaire francophone
25     bénéficie également d'un appui exceptionnel pour la


 1     mise en place de sa campagne annuelle de recrutement
 2     d'élèves, tant à la radio qu'à la télévision.
 3  1161                 Comme vous pouvez le constatez, la
 4     mise en place du Conseil scolaire francophone de la
 5     Colombie-Britannique est récente, et déjà, plusieurs
 6     collaborations se tissent afin d'assurer la
 7     participation des élèves francophones et de leur livrer
 8     un produit qui leur parle.
 9  1162                 Évidemment, l'arrivée du Conseil
10     scolaire provincial amène aussi tout un nouvel
11     assortiment de besoins.  Il faut créer davantage
12     d'émissions qui nécessitent la participation des jeunes
13     de la Province et des provinces de l'Ouest, puisque la
14     définition identitaire francophone de cette clientèle
15     repose sur l'image qu'elle retrouve à la télévision et
16     à la radio.
17  1163                 Cette responsabilité est grande.  Le
18     seul diffuseur francophone actuellement disponible en
19     Colombie-Britannique demeure la Société Radio-Canada. 
20     Le seul diffuseur redevable aux jeunes de la
21     Colombie-Britannique, aux parents et au personnel
22     enseignant de par son mandat, demeure la Société
23     Radio-Canada.
24  1164                 Il faut augmenter la promotion de la
25     programmation jeunesse par tous les moyens.  Certaines


 1     émissions sont méconnues.  Je crois qu'il est également
 2     nécessaire de se pencher sur une programmation jeunesse
 3     à contenu éducatif.  Cet encadrement est nécessaire
 4     pour assurer l'épanouissement des élèves en milieu
 5     minoritaire et vient compléter le rôle du parent et de
 6     l'enseignante ou de l'enseignant.
 7  1165                 Il me semble également impératif pour
 8     la Société Radio-Canada de réévaluer les répercussions
 9     des coupures spécifiquement sur la production
10     d'émissions jeunesse radiophoniques locales, et
11     d'assurer les ressources pour permettre à l'ultime
12     émission télévisuelle produite en Colombie-Britannique,
13     l'émission de nouvelles, "Ce soir", de remplir
14     correctement son mandat.
15  1166                 La Société Radio-Canada a un rôle de
16     premier ordre à jouer à titre de partenaire dans le
17     soutien à l'éducation francophone et à l'épanouissement
18     culturel en milieu minoritaire.  Les produits
19     radiophoniques et télévisuels sont des éléments
20     essentiels dans la définition que les enfants et que
21     les adolescentes et adolescents se font de leur
22     communauté francophone locale, provinciale, nationale
23     et de plus en plus, dans leur autodétermination à titre
24     de francophones du monde.
25  1167                 Les élèves de partout en


 1     Colombie-Britannique en ont besoin, plein la vue, comme
 2     le dit la thématique promotionnelle actuelle.  Nous
 3     pouvons affirmer que ce sont... que ce ne sont pas les
 4     plus grands consommateurs des produits de la Société
 5     Radio-Canada à l'heure actuelle.  Il faut leur apporter
 6     des émissions qui correspondent davantage à leur
 7     réalité de francophones en situation minoritaire et en
 8     faire une plus grande promotion.  Il faut leur en
 9     mettre plein la vue.
10  1168                 Merci de votre attention, chers
11     commissaires, et bonne continuation de votre tournée.
12     --- Applause / Applaudissements
13  1169                 LA PRÉSIDENTE:  Merci infiniment.
14  1170                 MS PINSKY:  The next speaker is Ms
15     Barker.
17  1171                 MS BARKER:  Good evening, my name is
18     Katherine Barker.  I have three points that I would
19     like to make this evening and I will be brief.
20  1172                 Let me say that I came to CBC radio
21     late in life.  I always thought it was for old people
22     and now that I am one, I really enjoy it.  But I do not
23     see enough young people here and I worry about that.  I
24     think we have a solution a little bit later on.
25  1173                 I have my own office, a home office


 1     and I like many, many Canadians am working at home and
 2     it is lonely to sit at home day in and day out.  But I
 3     have CBC radio on now right from the start.  I think
 4     when I first opened my office, I turned on CBC radio
 5     and I listened to voices from all across Canada and I
 6     have to say I am not alone.  I do not feel lonely when
 7     I have CBC radio.  And I think my first point is to
 8     remember and to carry back to Ottawa if you can how
 9     important CBC radio is to those of us working at home,
10     those of us in SOHO, small office home office.  And how
11     critical CBC radio is.  Listening to anything else
12     would be painful.
13  1174                 Keeping on the commercial radio,
14     commercial television or playing my spa music would be
15     painful but listening to CBC is not.  It is an
16     important vital service to small business, to those of
17     us who work at home.  If CBC does not want that
18     business, certainly someone else will pick it up, I am
19     certain of that.
20  1175                 The second point that I would like to
21     make has to do with the importance of CBC radio to
22     Canada.  I have been reading recently about activities
23     in the former Soviet union.  I think there was an
24     attempted coup in 1993.  The strategy of the
25     individuals in the group that wanted to take power away


 1     from the government was to storm the national radio. 
 2     And they fought, lives were lost, the tanks rolled in
 3     and the importance of the national radio was so vital
 4     to seeking power that it was the focus of their efforts
 5     and I wondered what would happen in Canada.  If there
 6     was a revolution or some kind of a war, what would we
 7     storm?  I think my point is that we have to make CBC
 8     that which we would storm, that which we would defend
 9     with our lives.
10     --- Applause / Applaudissements
11  1176                 MS BARKER:  Finally, as I said, I am
12     an education futurist and I think the future of CBC has
13     to be framed as something else at this point to compete
14     as part of the media, part of the entertainment
15     industry with the private sector and of course with
16     American interests.  And it cannot compete and it
17     should not compete.  It should be something else.  It
18     should be a part of our learning system, a part of our
19     education and training system.
20  1177                 And so I think that, in terms of
21     future support for the CBC, when we look at the
22     initiatives that the federal government supports
23     towards a life-long learning culture and a life-long
24     learning society, all we need to do is think of CBC as
25     part of life-long learning rather than part of the


 1     media rather than part of our entertainment system and
 2     make it vital to our education system it does provide
 3     non-formal learning and we need to capitalize on that,
 4     build on that.
 5  1178                 We need the CBC to be part of a
 6     life-long learning system that provides the non-formal
 7     learning that focuses on the learning needs of
 8     individual Canadians from all across Canada and that
 9     organizes to provide what it is that the established
10     education training system cannot.  I leave it to CBC to
11     figure that one out but they have done it well so far.
12  1179                 So my point, my third point is that
13     we should not lament the past, but that we should look
14     to the future and that we should create a new CBC
15     learning system for the future.
16  1180                 Thank you.
17     --- Applause / Applaudissements
18  1181                 CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
19     you very much.  I would propose that we take ten
20     minutes for coffee and we will reconvene.
21     --- Recess at 1930 / Suspension à 1930
22     --- Upon resuming at 1940 / Reprise à 1940
23  1182                 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Alors, nous reprenons,
24     we will start again.
25  1183                 MS PINSKY:  Ms Connie Fogal is the


 1     next presenter.
 3  1184                 MS FOGAL:  Thank you.
 4  1185                 J'étais très heureuse que nous avons
 5     eu une présentation en français parce que je me dit que
 6     sans... comment on dit en français, comment... la
 7     Société Radio-Canada, nous n'aurons pas le bilinguisme
 8     du Canada et le bilinguisme pour moi, c'est très
 9     important, c'est une des premières parts du Canada et
10     alors pour moi, c'est la seule façon, la seule manière
11     que nous aurons la continuation du bilinguisme et le
12     Canada comme nous avons maintenant.
13  1186                 I am very happy that we had a
14     presentation in French because it reminded me that,
15     without the CBC we will not have a mechanism of radio
16     television communication that will protect and preserve
17     part of the essential identity of Canada which is our
18     bilingualism.  And I think it is very important to
19     remember that and to remember that once we lose this
20     vehicle which we are in the process of having happen,
21     our identity, our Canadian-ness, our being as a country
22     will be gone.
23  1187                 I want to say to you what to me is
24     the CBC, what is the CBC to me.  To me it is my home
25     and I say that because if you are like me when you


 1     travel and you do come home to your own house, it feels
 2     so good to get home to your own house and to your own
 3     bed and to the familiarity of what is yours.  And when
 4     on those few occasions I have travelled across the
 5     border south and I am close to the border of Canada and
 6     I am able to hear CBC, honestly it was like coming
 7     home.
 8  1188                 For me, the CBC is my country, it is
 9     my identity, it is my culture.  When a couple of years
10     ago, the mass of cut backs hit CBC, first of all, I
11     felt a deep sense of grieving like I felt when I sat on
12     my couch and was it 1995 when we had the Quebec
13     referendum and I thought I was losing my country.  And
14     it was hard, it was very hard and very painful to
15     experience the grieving because I felt like I was
16     experiencing the death of the CBC which in my idea is
17     the death of Canada.
18  1189                 Now my grieving has changed to an
19     anger.  I am angry that our politicians are not just
20     letting this death happen, but they are creating it and
21     they are creating it by the deliberate withholding of
22     funding.  They are creating it by submitting to a
23     global agenda which says there will be no public kinds
24     of facilities.  Everything is to be privatized. 
25     Everything, all the resources that I own, that I was


 1     born into the world to have, that are my inheritance,
 2     my heritage, someone in a political decision-making
 3     power is saying sorry lady, we are giving it away.
 4  1190                 So there is this agenda out there
 5     that the decision-makers are submitting to.  And I
 6     am -- I am not accepting that.  And I am here tonight
 7     to say to you that I expect you as a commission with
 8     the duty, public duty, I am asking you to remember your
 9     role is to protect the public interest.  And I am
10     asking you to be conscious of my great grievous fear
11     and unhappiness about the death of the CBC which is
12     just one other indication of the death of my country.
13  1191                 There is this process in place
14     incrementally destroying us and I worry very much when
15     I read the line four paragraphs down on the first page
16     that says a public hearing on the CBC's licence renewal
17     will follow these discussions.  Jumping right out at me
18     is the worry, does this mean that there is some
19     consideration by someone that that the renewal will not
20     take place?  I become paranoid in my -- in my grief and
21     my anger about the destruction of what is my being. 
22     And I make no bones about that and no apologies.
23  1192                 Most of the people who sit around
24     this table are typical, nice Canadians, they say nice
25     things kindly, present very well, but I think, if you


 1     listen carefully, you will be able to hear some of what
 2     I am quite willing to express in a much more direct way
 3     that is my fear and my anger.
 4     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 5  1193                 MS FOGAL:  There is an agenda right
 6     now that all the resources of the world are to belong
 7     to a few and we have seen that process begun with the
 8     Free Trade Agreement and the NAFTA.  We were told that
 9     our cultural matters were all protected under NAFTA but
10     we've seen about that that is not so clear.  There has
11     been a passing of a bill but probably it will not be
12     enforced in terms of the magazines.
13  1194                 I think that as Canadians we have had
14     some real shocks in seeing the challenge when our
15     Parliament passes a law to protect the citizens and
16     then it ends up not only paying out the compensation
17     which it is required to do under NAFTA because you can
18     pass a law, but then you will have to pay the
19     compensation but then we saw the lack of dignity of our
20     parliamentarians apologizing for having had the
21     audacity to pass the laws to protect the citizens of
22     Canada.
23  1195                 Now we have a weak kind of law that I
24     fear will not protect the aspect of our culture that is
25     in the magazine industry and I fear that the agenda of


 1     the destruction of CBC is on the march and unless we as
 2     citizens and one as one or two other people stand up
 3     and say we will just not accept this and ask you, the
 4     representatives on the commission to take forward that
 5     message strong and clear, that we will be
 6     steam-rollered over.
 7  1196                 And it is time for politicians to
 8     understand and you are politicians, and I am not
 9     faulting you, but I am saying that you have to take bag
10     the message that we are not going to accept the
11     destruction of our CBC we will not accept the
12     destruction of our Canada.
13  1197                 I want to say one more point about
14     money.  Every one says we will have to lose the
15     television aspect of the CBC because if there is not
16     enough money we may have to give up something.  That is
17     the biggest lie of all that there is no money.
18     --- Applause / Applaudissements
19  1198                 MS FOGAL:  William Lyon Mackenzie
20     King said at the time of the Second World War that once
21     a country loses control of its money, loses control of
22     its economy, it has lost its sovereignty.  And there is
23     a mechanism in Canada that we still have under
24     legislation by which we can fund everything that we
25     want that we need, that we have had, that is our


 1     history, that is our infrastructure, that is all our
 2     social programs, that is our CBC and that is by using
 3     the Bank of Canada.  We did it at the time of the
 4     Second World War and it is because we used that source
 5     of money instead of borrowing money from the private
 6     banks at their rates of interest we can borrow from our
 7     own bank at a low-interest or at a very low rate of
 8     interest and that is what saved our country before and
 9     that is what propelled our country into the great
10     country that we became and that we have begun to lose
11     since the 1970s.
12  1199                 That mechanism still exists and every
13     Canadian has to know that it is the biggest lie of all
14     against us as citizens that we do not have the money
15     that we cannot have the money.  We simply have to say
16     no, we are not going to get the money we need from
17     borrowing from the private banks and paying them
18     exorbitant rates of interest which creates the debt
19     which impoverishes us.  And we are going to use the
20     sovereign measures which we have.
21  1200                 Except that if we do not demand that
22     our elected people make use of the measures which
23     exist, we are participating in our own death.  And so
24     the CBC is simply one of the most concrete
25     representations of the -- of our end of our demise. 


 1     And so my message to you, as a citizen is my plea
 2     simply that protect the CBC, make sure that it remains. 
 3     Do not accept that it is impossible for us to have this
 4     public broadcasting system which is of the best in the
 5     world just because it is going downhill dramatically in
 6     these last couple of years does not mean it has to be
 7     that way except that you must accept as I think most
 8     citizens in Canada accept is that the agenda is to see
 9     that it is killed and the reason that agenda is there
10     is that the privatization is the agenda and there must
11     not be a CBC any more than there must be a health
12     program or any other program.
13  1201                 So I am here pleading with you, put
14     it on the record that there are citizens out here who
15     are beginning to understand what is happening out there
16     and we are not going to accept it and I know that you
17     do not have political power, I presume you do not have
18     political power, but you have political influence and I
19     am asking you to use.  Use it.
20     --- Applause / Applaudissements
21  1202                 CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
22     you and I would like maybe to not respond but maybe
23     bring a clarification to the role of the CRTC.  The
24     role of the CRTC is to implement the Broadcasting Act
25     and the Broadcasting Act is very clear about the


 1     broadcasting system being made of the public and the
 2     private sector.  And the process in which we are
 3     involved right now is about the renewal of the
 4     licences.  We have no power to not accept the -- you
 5     know, to revoke the licences.  It is the renewal of the
 6     licence.  They will be renewed.  And what we are
 7     discussing with you and will be continuing the
 8     discussion in the public hearing at the end of May is
 9     what are the conditions and the terms of those
10     licences.
11  1203                 So I do not want to, you know,
12     silence your voices, it is very important that you
13     express all the emotions and all your reason and
14     thoughts about the CBC, but I would not want you to
15     leave the room with the wrong impression that we, the
16     CRTC might decide not to renew or renew the licences. 
17     They will be renewed, that is for sure and there is no
18     power of ours to do otherwise and it is with a strong
19     conviction that the broadcasting system in Canada has
20     really -- it is valued because of the strong presence
21     of the public system.
22  1204                 MS FOGAL:  One of your speakers will
23     probably deal with this, but I am quoting from an
24     article of his where he talks about the private
25     broadcasters fully receiving half the costs of their


 1     Canadian dramas coming from public sources such as
 2     Telefilm, Canadian Public Television and tax credits
 3     which money the Chrétien government has taken away from
 4     the CBC.  I do not need to know what your role is, all
 5     I need you to know is that there is a strong feeling
 6     out here to continue the mechanism of the CBC for
 7     Canadians.  I am not saying there cannot be any private
 8     stuff, but for goodness sake do not destroy our public
 9     stuff.  Do not let it be destroyed.
10  1205                 CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
11     you.
12  1206                 MS PINSKY:  Mr. Darryl Duke is the
13     next presenter.
15  1207                 MR. DUKE:  Good evening, madam
16     Bertrand.  First, may I extend my appreciation to you
17     for the opportunity given to me and all the members of
18     the Vancouver public whom you have seen all today and
19     tomorrow to comment on the future of the CBC.  Far too
20     often in recent years the commission hearings about the
21     media, whether specialty channels, national licences or
22     pay TV have taken place far from our shores, in Hull,
23     where the general public has been excluded by reasons
24     of distance and cost and where only well paid corporate
25     executives or lobbyists on expense accounts could


 1     attend.
 2  1208                 Your readiness to give the public
 3     access to comment on the CBC in advance of your may
 4     25th hearing is to be warmly congratulated and I
 5     certainly congratulate you on that.
 6     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 7  1209                 CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
 8     you.
 9  1210                 MR. DUKE:  Tonight I speak strongly
10     in support of the CBC which has been with me for a
11     long, long time.  And I speak more particularly through
12     my remarks on two topics.  One is the response of local
13     programming and the other is the quality of CBC
14     leadership and the appointment process by which that
15     CBC leadership is put in place.
16  1211                 And before I launch on to those two
17     topics, I would like to thank you back in time, Madam
18     Bertrand to a date on December 16th, 1953 when my life
19     in television began at the CBC and here in Vancouver. 
20     On that December night I was one of a small group who
21     brought CBC television to Vancouver and to our Pacific
22     coast.
23  1212                 For the opening night ceremonies I
24     turned on a small out a short film about our city I was
25     in the control room as the first queues were given and


 1     the very first television signal went out from our
 2     studios on West Georgia Street.
 3  1213                 I continued at CBUT for five years
 4     until the CBC transferred me to Toronto to produce
 5     public affairs programs for the series such as "Close
 6     Up" and to be executive producer of "Request", a series
 7     of contemporary dramas, music and documentaries which
 8     ran for three years in the early 1960s.
 9  1214                 I elaborate these biographical
10     details because I -- they are in support of some
11     feelings I have strongly about what is happening today
12     to the CBC.
13  1215                 In the years following my time I
14     worked for at the CBC, I worked for all three U.S.
15     networks and for most of the major studios in
16     Hollywood.  That work took me through the U.S., Europe,
17     South America, the Middle East and Asia.  And I worked
18     on shows which cost but a few hundred dollars and were
19     seen only locally and others like "The Thornbirds"
20     which cost over $22 million and became one of the most
21     watched dramas ever telecast.
22  1216                 Later, on returning to Canada, I was
23     the founding chairman and major shareholder of
24     Vancouver's independent TV station then known as CKVU
25     TV which won a licence from the CRTC in 1975. 


 1     Therefore, I have been a part of seeing the launch of
 2     two of Vancouver's television stations, one private,
 3     one belonging to the people of Canada.  Both
 4     experiences were and remain fond and important
 5     highlights in my life.  Both gave me a lasting
 6     impression of the importance of local television to our
 7     city.  It is that importance of local and regional
 8     broadcasting and its access to our citizens that I
 9     stress in these few remarks to you tonight.
10  1217                 To speak to you in 1999 about the CBC
11     and local broadcasting in Vancouver is to speak of a
12     great sense of loss, the loss of a dream which once
13     existed and the programming which was once expressive
14     of that public service dream.
15  1218                 Through information, a society is
16     made better.  That was the quote that we were all told
17     and lived by when we started to work in those early
18     years of the corporation.  I speak to you, too, with a
19     sense of betrayal of the city of my birth and all these
20     different people, Iranian, Sikh, Chinese, Aboriginal,
21     as well as English who are today disenfranchised by the
22     absence of a public broadcasters from their cultures
23     and from their lives.
24  1219                 To look at the CBC today is to
25     witness the abdication of the CBC from the talent, the


 1     issue, the broad range of programming each citizen has
 2     the right to expect from his public broadcaster within
 3     his own community.
 4  1220                 I hope the commission in its hearings
 5     in May will do everything in its power to restore the
 6     fullness of local programming in this, Canada's second
 7     largest English speaking city.
 8  1221                 The CBC is rich in air time but poor
 9     in spirit.  The CBC is rich in people's goodwill, but
10     poor in the profound dumbness of its leaders who betray
11     that goodwill.  The noted Italian journalist Irena
12     Felacci wrote:  "Journalism is an extraordinary and
13     terrible privilege."
14  1222                 So, too, Madam Bertrand, are the
15     expectations placed upon a public broadcaster.
16     Leadership and the ramifications of poor or
17     shortsighted leadership is the second aspect of CBC
18     renewal along with local programming that I hope you
19     and the commission will tackle at licence renewal time.
20  1223                 The decline we witness in the CBC is
21     not the result of some strange interplanetary
22     conglomeration of events beyond human control.  This
23     decline is made by particular finite means.  It is
24     caused by finite decisions by which one Canada has been
25     stripped of its greatest patrimony, the knowledge of


 1     who we are and where we come from and what kind of
 2     journey we are setting out upon together.
 3  1224                 Finite man stripped English Canada
 4     and, if I knew more of the French broadcasting system,
 5     I might say stripped both English and French Canada of
 6     their cultures.  And tell us their actions are
 7     inevitable.  After they have done so, finite man have
 8     taken away almost a third of the CBC's budget and have
 9     lost almost a third of the CBC's trained staff and they
10     tell us this is inevitable or necessary because of the
11     newest fashion in corporate mumbo jumbo, globalization,
12     fragmentation, the Internet, downsizing, contracting
13     out, it goes on and on.
14  1225                 But finite men and women have
15     commercialized the CBC until it is almost
16     unrecognizable as a public broadcaster.
17  1226                 Next year, the CBC plans to generate
18     $475 million from advertising revenue.  Where did that
19     little caper come from?  From the days of Brian
20     Mulroney, from John Chrétien, from Paul Martin or from
21     the CBC chair and her politically appointed board?
22  1227                 How do these things happen that half
23     of the revenue of a public corporation comes now from
24     advertising?
25  1228                 Robert McChesny, in a speech at Simon


 1     Fraser University defined public broadcasting as a
 2     system that is non-profit and non-commercial, supported
 3     by public funds ultimately accountable in some legally
 4     defined way to the citizenry aimed at providing a
 5     service to the entire population and one which does not
 6     apply commercial principles as the primary means to
 7     determine its programming.
 8  1229                 I find, Madam Bertrand, Professor
 9     McChesny's description of public broadcasting a
10     chilling one.  So much has been lost or has been
11     deliberately forgotten in the rush to privatize
12     programs and to destroy the in-house production
13     capacity of the CBC.
14  1230                 The CBC has been powerless to avoid
15     being thrown into the flames.  For at its heart -- for
16     at the heart of its tipping problem were acts of
17     political betrayal.  The appointment of men who by
18     their very nature and talents were incapable of giving
19     the CBC what it needed most, a vision, a sense of
20     nuance of our nation, a knowledge of our multicultural
21     reality.
22  1231                 These men once appointed can only
23     undermine what we needed most in this country, a leader
24     in the recommend of ideas whose care for artistic
25     integrity was personal and profound.  Who but a Borgia


 1     would appoint Gérard Vaillou, an accountant from the
 2     treasury department to be president of the CBC? 
 3     Mulroney did.
 4     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 5  1232                 MR. DUKE:  Vaillou told the
 6     commission at a hearing in the early 1990s that
 7     Vancouver and the regions would henceforth be served
 8     and I remember that very clearly by the supper hour
 9     news.  With that one statement out went dedication to
10     the city's talent to its issues, to its music both
11     classical and pop, to its own dramas and its own
12     experimental productions.
13  1233                 Who but a Macchiavello would put
14     Perrin Beatty at the head of our most precious cultural
15     institution.  He was the man that was on the very
16     Mulroney cabinet who began the cuts to the CBC.  It was
17     Jean Chrétien who did that.
18  1234                 Perrin Beatty and the appointed
19     members of the board are still in place.  The damage
20     they have done is there for us to witness, not only in
21     repeat programs, more commercial shows than ever,
22     privatize shows which makes us lose the library rights
23     and diminish the assets of the Canadian people but also
24     in the labour humiliations and overwork which sees
25     staff on the picket line even as we speak here today


 1     tonight.
 2  1235                 These appointments have radically
 3     impacted the operation and effectiveness of public
 4     broadcasting in Canada.  They have altered its cultured
 5     and commercialized ideas.  The commission in examining
 6     CBC and its licence renewal can perhaps look at the
 7     whole appointment process which places liberal lawyers,
 8     party faithful and individuals from business on a board
 9     with overwhelming power over the welfare of our public
10     cultural institutions.
11     --- Applause / Applaudissements
12  1236                 MR. DUKE:  Perhaps in the licence
13     renewal process the commission can study and recommend
14     features of appointments to cultural boards which are
15     now in place in a far more democratic and open fashion
16     and Nelson Mandella's South Africa.  In the end, the
17     commission must ask, can a network devoted to sports,
18     news and commercial drama be truly a public
19     broadcasting network?
20  1237                 There are ways back from this steady
21     decline.  The commission in one instance can bring an
22     end to the forces which have centralized our network,
23     centralization is a form of cultural arrogance.
24  1238                 Centralization is not about saving
25     money, it is about control.  It is programming


 1     according to the boon docks theory of culture that only
 2     at the centre is to be found knowledge and production
 3     expertise.
 4  1239                 Vancouver as the second largest city
 5     in English Canada needs to have local broadcasting
 6     restored.  The CBC in Vancouver needs once again to be
 7     a major production centre.  It needs access to its own
 8     prime time air time.  It needs autonomy of
 9     decision-making, it needs to have its own budget.  It
10     needs to have a strong in-house production capacity as
11     befits its studios.  The fact that CBC Toronto sits
12     with a huge and expensive broadcast centre should not
13     be a dead weight upon the rest of us.
14     --- Applause / Applaudissements
15  1240                 MR. DUKE:  There was a time when I
16     and so many others who followed me hired commedians,
17     writers, choreographers, play writers, musicians,
18     ballet dancers, academics, actors, string quartets,
19     chamber orchestras, ballad singers and rhythm and blues
20     men.  The CBC here was a bustling and involved centre
21     in the culture of our city.
22  1241                 Now, the rain sweeps past that cement
23     plaza on Georgia Street and the news is done from the
24     CBUT coffee shop.  I hope when the commission is
25     through with its task in play, local, multicultural


 1     programming will be able to set and achieve new targets
 2     of excellence here in the city.  Thank you Madam
 3     Bertrand.
 4     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 5  1242                 CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
 6     you very much, Mr. Duke.
 7  1243                 MS PINSKY:  Mr. Dick Hamilton is the
 8     next presenter.
10  1244                 MR. HAMILTON:  I want to thank the
11     CRTC for coming all this way to listen to what we have
12     to say.
13  1245                 Before addressing specific issues, I
14     want to say that a clear distinction needs to be made
15     between CBC radio and CBC television in the CRTC
16     hearings.  This is not often so in the media.  I am
17     aware of the perception that television, not radio is
18     where the action is.  Today, CBC management appears to
19     be more concerned with the future of CBC television
20     than it is with the future of CBC radio.  And I, for
21     one, am very worried about the implications for CBC
22     radio.
23  1246                 Regarding CBC radio, I have several
24     points to make.  Point number one, I oppose the
25     possible introduction of commercial advertising in


 1     Radio One or Radio Two.
 2     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 3  1247                 MR. HAMILTON:  If such a travesty
 4     should occur, I would simply turn the radio off.  Would
 5     that be a loss for me?  Absolutely.
 6  1248                 Point two, I believe the CBC should
 7     obtain public funding to remain and increase
 8     programming that leads to a better understanding about
 9     Canada and its peoples programs such as "This Morning",
10     "Richardson's Round Up", "Cross-Country Checkup",
11     "Writers and Company", "Tapestry" and "Ideas" are
12     invaluable programs.  They are part as someone
13     mentioned earlier this evening, they are part of the
14     glue that binds Canadians as a community.
15  1249                 What broadcaster in Canada would
16     cover the establishment of Nunavut on April 1 of this
17     year?  Good old CBC, that is who.
18  1250                 Who provides exceptionally good
19     programs of Canadian radio and the arts programs such
20     as Radio Two "In Performance", "Choral Concert" and
21     others.  Again, good old CBC.
22  1251                 Point three, CBC radio listeners in
23     the major market areas tend to take CBC radio for
24     granted.  But what about those who live in isolated
25     communities?  Our daughter and son-in-law live with


 1     their children in Telegraph Creek, in northwestern
 2     British Columbia.  That community and many more in
 3     other isolated areas of this country depend on CBC
 4     radio for news an weather information.
 5  1252                 More important, only CBC radio
 6     provides some of the same programs that we take for
 7     granted in the more densely populated regions. 
 8     However, reception on short wave is very poor. 
 9     Consequently, people in isolated regions often do not
10     have a reliable link to the rest of Canada and the
11     world which can only be provided by CBC radio.
12  1253                 Point four.  CBC radio means a great
13     deal to many Canadians.  Our other daughter living in
14     Victoria sent me an e-mail message this morning asking
15     to include some of her thoughts about CBC radio.
16  1254                 She says that CBC radio provides
17     incredibly in-depth, reliable and topical coverage of
18     events and general happenings worldwide.  Including
19     information about the arts, politics, economics,
20     environment, history.  She learns more about Canada,
21     about our different cultures our diverse ecosystems,
22     political and economic issues and conflicts.  And there
23     is a variety of musical programming including wonderful
24     news and analysis and comedy entertainment as well.
25  1255                 She says that these are not available


 1     elsewhere on Canadian radio.  And that is the main fear
 2     that she has.  She values CBC programming -- radio
 3     programming so highly and that if it disappears then we
 4     will be left with a huge void.  She ends her comments
 5     with a question:  Where else can I get this incredible
 6     opportunity to obtain all this up to date information
 7     while I wash dishes or clean a closet?
 8  1256                 Point five, CBC radio is the
 9     programming choice in our household.  We choose CBC
10     radio because it provides valuable, thought provoking
11     programs and magnificent music.
12  1257                 Now, regarding CBC television, I want
13     to comment on two points.  Point number one:  CBC
14     should be the major generator of high quality
15     information drama and arts television programs which
16     reflect the milieu that is Canada.  Information
17     programs such as "Marketplace", "Venture", "The Fifth
18     Estate", "The Nature of Things" do give a Canadian
19     perspective on major issues affecting this country.
20  1258                 I commend CBC television for this
21     programming.  But I would like to see production of
22     more serious drama in Canada.  Joint production of
23     drama by CBC and other television producers, Canadian
24     other otherwise should be increased and I think the
25     same can be applied to CBC radio and the production of


 1     drama on that medium.
 2  1259                 Point two, regional programming of
 3     CBC television is extremely important because it
 4     permits the various regions to tailor programs to its
 5     listeners.  Centralization of programming in Toronto is
 6     not practical.
 7  1260                 On "Cross-Country Checkup" aired last
 8     Sunday, callers in different regions clearly stated
 9     that they did not have the opportunity to advise CBC
10     management on the types of programs that they wanted or
11     needed.  Our country is huge and CBC television needs
12     to relate to a diverse range of viewers.
13  1261                 A few general comments:  The CBC is
14     an institution which has played a vital role in the
15     evolution of the Canada that we know today.  It must
16     remain as the public broadcaster in Canada.  Under no
17     circumstances should it be further decimated and
18     otherwise transformed into a state run broadcaster.
19  1262                 The CBC, like every one and
20     everything else must adapt to the new reality of
21     specialized programming.  Specialization is inevitable
22     and CBC must use its national mandate to provide
23     quality radio and television throughout this country.
24  1263                 CBC management must take hard
25     decisions because it cannot be all things to all its


 1     listeners and viewers.  The current malaise at the CBC
 2     convinces me that both entities, radio and TV require
 3     adequate and stable funding from the federal
 4     government.
 5  1264                 CBC management must operate at arm's
 6     length from the federal government.  Changes need to be
 7     made in the process of selecting members of the CBC
 8     board.  The board alone should choose its president
 9     with no instructions from the government of the day. 
10     Political interference in the operation of the CBC must
11     not be tolerated.  The CBC is distinct from commercial
12     radio and television and must remain so.  Quality of
13     programming and its delivery not the bottom line must
14     be the major criteria for evaluating the CBC.
15  1265                 In summary, we Canadians need to
16     remind ourselves that we are a unique people and a
17     unique country.  The CBC as the public broadcaster and
18     telecaster in Canada, has a marvelous opportunity to
19     share the aspirations and visions of our country not
20     only with us citizens but also with people all over the
21     world.
22  1266                 We have our own unique stories and
23     the CBC through its domestic and international services
24     can be the best story teller to listeners and viewers
25     at home and around the world.


 1     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 2  1267                 CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
 3     you, Mr. Hamilton.
 4  1268                 MS PINSKY:  Ms Patricia Speakman is
 5     the next speaker.
 7  1269                 MS SPEAKMAN:  I want to thank you
 8     very much for giving me the opportunity to speak here
 9     tonight.
10  1270                 I am an ordinary Canadian citizen
11     enjoying what I like to think of as a sunny retirement. 
12     The CBC has enriched my life and the lives of my family
13     for well over 50 years so I wish to thank the CRTC for
14     this opportunity to express my point of view.
15  1271                 I think I shall restrict my remarks
16     to CBC radio.  I hope I may be allowed to sound
17     somewhat sentimental for a moment or two.  When I
18     listened with dismay to the news reports of the
19     proposed budget cuts, I was reminded not of an
20     institution, but of a multicoloured, splendid garden
21     which had been planted long ago with great care and
22     hard work by dedicated, imaginative people who shaped
23     it for future generations.  And now it is in danger of
24     being shocked to extinction by the briers and thistles
25     of greedy advertisers.


 1  1272                 The air around it is being polluted
 2     by American programming.  We do not need their
 3     influence because the CBC is fulfilling its role as
 4     superbly as ever.  Indeed, it is continuing to do so
 5     heroicly in the face of these lamentable budget cuts.
 6  1273                 As we approach the new millennium, I
 7     hope that the CBC will not change its role simply
 8     because it is the turn of the century or because other
 9     broadcasters are taking that route.  There will
10     inevitably be changes with regard to technology,
11     marketing and a new generation of listeners.
12  1274                 I feel sure those changes can be made
13     and problem solving can be achieved while still
14     preserving the status quo as the great far-flung
15     network which binds Canadians from sea to sea to sea.
16  1275                 Of course, we are all aware that
17     plans cannot be made or completed without money.  And
18     how well the predatory advertisers know that.  Until
19     the federal government has a change of heart, shall we
20     say, or at least becomes aware of the havoc it has
21     brought about in the CBC, I am wondering, I think this
22     point has been covered, but I am wondering if there is
23     any point in reinstating the radio licence to private
24     people as an acceptable, practical solution.
25  1276                 Now, such a suggestion might well be


 1     greeted by a collective gasp of protest or
 2     apprehension, but surely a message might be sent out to
 3     listeners to the effect that for 20 to 25 cents, while
 4     we can think about that figure, that may be all
 5     together unrealistic, 20 to 25 cents a day the present
 6     quality and variety of programs can be maintained.  It
 7     just might save the day.  Is it not at least worth
 8     thinking about?
 9  1277                 I should say here that those figures
10     are just off the top of my head, but I feel that we
11     must find a way to turn the tide of the growing
12     invasion of advertising.  When you are listening to a
13     lovely musical program, can you imagine having to
14     listen to an ad for hamburgers in the midst of Handel's
15     "Messiah"?
16  1278                 I live here in Vancouver, so I am
17     well served by Radio One and Two, but I find it
18     delightful to know that there are fellow Canadians out
19     there keeping me company as they listen from their
20     homes in Peachland, Smithers, Houston and Sooke.  Those
21     are just a few.
22  1279                 The CBC is unique and that is why I
23     am persuaded that it would be wrong headed, even
24     disastrous to try to be the same as other broadcasters
25     who are so given to fads and twaddle.  The focus should


 1     be on eliminating, in my view any way, the focus should
 2     be on eliminating or at least counteracting American
 3     programming.
 4  1280                 Mr. Nolton Nash describes the CBC as
 5     a national treasure, and so it is.
 6     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 7  1281                 MS SPEAKMAN:  I must tell Mr. Nash
 8     that you clapped for him.
 9  1282                 For this reason, Canadians cannot
10     afford to be either uninformed or misinformed about the
11     past, present and future of this country.
12  1283                 I salute the CBC.  Broadcasting to
13     the multiculture of this huge country is a daunting
14     challenge.  In spite of the criticisms that I have
15     heard here tonight, I am saying to you CBC, take bow
16     and thank you.
17     --- Applause / Applaudissements
18  1284                 CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  If I
19     was asked tonight to define what is an ordinary
20     citizen, I would say that it is the ordinary listener
21     of CBC who has a lot of convictions and emotions.
22     --- Applause / Applaudissements
23  1285                 MS PINSKY:  Ms Joanne Blake is the
24     next presenter.


 1  1286                 MS BLAKE:  Thank you for giving me
 2     this opportunity.  I also want to thank everyone else
 3     for being here.  I feel supported in some of the
 4     feelings that I have been experiencing as watching the
 5     CBC go down the tubes I feel incredibly devastated by
 6     what has been happening to this media and particularly
 7     it is, I think, a point in history where we are facing
 8     a lot of problems and I would also like to reinforce a
 9     lot of what I have heard around this table about the
10     forces of darkness that are responsible for this and
11     what the motivations are behind it.  And that is the
12     promotion of a particular what one speaker, I think
13     aptly called the corporate political agenda.
14  1287                 Corporate political agenda, corporate
15     political economy and I would like to reinforce that
16     point of view as well.  But most of all, what I want to
17     give is a personal feeling about the CBC that I have. 
18     My connection with the CBC goes more than 50 years.  I
19     remember "Maggie Muggins" on the radio and then later
20     on, "My Small Children" and all "Mr. Dressup", all
21     those children's programming and that.  And I think
22     that has been one of the great losses that the CBC as a
23     radio media has suffered in the past while is
24     addressing -- is providing programming for children and
25     youth.  And actually giving youth access to the media


 1     radio media.
 2  1288                 And I wanted to also say that I,
 3     through my experiences with the CBC, it has been an
 4     experience.  I lived in a semirural area, had children,
 5     I was newly married and then a year or two later small
 6     children started to come.  I lived in a semirural area
 7     and at that time with very little formal education. 
 8     And the CBC, while I was changing diapers, sweeping
 9     floors, washing dishes, et cetera, was really important
10     to me in that area.  I had the choice of listening to
11     that or listening to the closest small town AM radio
12     where all you heard all day was country and western
13     music and commercials.  So -- and I know the CBC has
14     performed that function, that role in many people's
15     lives who lived in semirural areas or rural areas.
16  1289                 The second point, I think the CBC
17     both the radio and television is extremely important
18     for us as a small country, living beside the most
19     powerful country in the world in terms of how -- as a
20     vehicle for reproducing Canadian culture for the
21     production of Canadian culture and for the reproduction
22     of Canadian culture it is a -- I also spoke to my
23     daughter who is a performing artist and asked her,
24     well, what would you like to say if you were coming to
25     this hearing and as a performing artist, other people


 1     as well have brought out the point that it has been
 2     such an important -- has been important in giving
 3     creative people access and tools to work with and
 4     excellent facilities for doing their art, whatever that
 5     is, music, theatre, drama, et cetera.
 6  1290                 I think -- I think that, also, the
 7     CBC counteracts this incredibly sterile monoculture pop
 8     culture -- I have to be careful with my language -- but
 9     that we are exposed through -- exposed to from private
10     sector media.
11  1291                 Okay.  And I think that the CBC if
12     the CBC was adequately managed and funded, it is an
13     incredible source for providing access to the tools,
14     access and tools for creativity in Canada of our art,
15     our artistic people.
16  1292                 And then the second -- the third and
17     final point I wanted to make is its contribution as a
18     vehicle for -- as a tool for participating in the
19     political life of our country and this is where I think
20     the forces of darkness have definitely got a plan in
21     mind.
22  1293                 I mean the CBC, in my mind, when I
23     was a more mature adult in the '60s and '70s was the
24     major critic.  It provided access to minority opinions,
25     alternative opinions, opposition opinions which


 1     commercial media do not do in Canada and it is an
 2     incredible problem, I think right now that we are
 3     facing.
 4  1294                 And the speaker who was speaking when
 5     I came in, the Reverend Price who said that things are
 6     looking dark, I think they are.  I think the last 20
 7     years my work has been outside of the country in Latin
 8     America, and Africa and I have worked in countries that
 9     have -- tend to have totalitarian regimes where the
10     people have very limited access to diverse political
11     opinions.
12  1295                 And, to me, the CBC is incredibly
13     valuable, has been and I think this is one of the
14     things that I have noted since these cuts and all the
15     destruction of the CBC has been going on is that that
16     is not appearing anymore on the CBC.  And I think that
17     is part of the design of the people who have
18     implemented these, this aagenda.  They do not want the
19     CBC to be a critic any more.  They do not -- they are
20     destroying the CBC's power to be -- to give access to
21     the critics in our country and that frightens me no
22     end.
23  1296                 Because, as I say, in the career I
24     have had the last 20 years, I have spent a lot of time
25     in countries where there is not free access to


 1     information, or free access to people who have an
 2     opposing opinion.  And it will never happen in the
 3     private sector.  And I am sick to death of sound bite
 4     news.  CBC radio has, you can get analysis of -- you
 5     can get an analysis of the news of events that happen
 6     and commercial radio does not do that.
 7  1297                 Just to conclude on that point, I
 8     think the CBC is rightfully as a public broadcaster it
 9     should be preserved as a tool for preserving democratic
10     practice and democratic opinion -- opinions that
11     contribute to conserving and building democratic
12     practice in Canada.  Thank you.
13     --- Applause / Applaudissements
14  1298                 CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
15     you very much.
16  1299                 MS PINSKY:  Mr. Ian Boothby is the
17     next presenter.
19  1300                 MR. BOOTHBY:  Okay.  I would like to
20     just piggy-back on what you were saying about diverse
21     opinions.  CBC has got a really hard job in that they
22     are supposed to present what is the Canadian unified
23     point of view and that is something they write about in
24     the news a lot, you know, saying what is the Canadian
25     identity, we do not have a Canadian identity and yet


 1     they also have to represent a diverse point of view and
 2     show all diverse cultures and show diverse parts of
 3     Canada and we are supposed to show a unified part when
 4     it is diverse and I have always thought that is what
 5     Canada is, that is our unified point of view, that we
 6     are diverse.
 7  1301                 The problem -- there is a bad side to
 8     that, though.  Because we are so diverse and we are so
 9     tolerant of everything, we get very nice and because we
10     are very nice we are very polite and then when
11     something like the CBC is sort of falling apart, we are
12     polite about it and we don't get mad and we have got to
13     get more mad.  I think sometimes.
14     --- Applause / Applaudissements
15  1302                 MR. BOOTHBY:  Now, a lot of people
16     have mentioned that they like the "Airfarce" and
17     usually they tag that on to "I hate TV, but I like the
18     Airfarce" and that is the same thing, with all my
19     friends who do not like TV, I always ask about what
20     about PBS or the Discovery Channel, "Oh, I like that, I
21     just do not like certain things on TV." Well don't
22     criticize the glass, it can be filled with water or
23     filled with poison, but TV is the glass.
24  1303                 With "Airfarce", I prefer myself
25     "This Hour Has 22 Minutes" because they get more angry.


 1     When we were going to lose Quebec, the only people that
 2     could tell Jean Chrétien to get off his arse were Rick
 3     Mercer and the gang over there.  They were the only
 4     ones that had the national audience and that he'd
 5     listen to.
 6  1304                 If "This Hour"is knocking on his
 7     door, you bet he is going to be opening it and
 8     welcoming them in even more than Nolton Nash and
 9     whoever else you want.
10  1305                 That is because I think focusing on
11     something that CBC television does something very well
12     is sketch comedy.
13  1306                 I think Canadians do sketch comedy
14     better than anyone in the world and that is not just
15     nationalism talking, you talk about "Saturday Night
16     Live" created by a Canadian, "SCTV", one of the
17     greatest sketch comedy shows in the world mostly
18     Canadians in that.  This is something that we do very
19     well.
20  1307                 Another thing that shows up in the
21     papers quite a bit is why don't we do the great
22     Canadian sitcom.  And I do not know if anyone noticed,
23     but over the last year it happened with "Made in
24     Canada", once again, the Rick Mercer sitcom, a
25     brilliant, brilliant sitcom but it did not have a laugh


 1     track, so I guess a lot of people did not notice it was
 2     a sitcom.
 3  1308                 Similar thing is happening in the
 4     States now with "Sports Night".  They want to take the
 5     laugh track off, but the network would not do it.  They
 6     said the audience would not understand it.  We think
 7     Canadians are smarter than Americans think Americans
 8     are.
 9  1309                 We know our people are smart and that
10     is a good thing, too.  Working in CBC, in the comedy
11     industry I have never, ever been told to dumb something
12     down.  Working in the American industry, I am
13     constantly told to dumb it down.  That is something
14     that we can be proud of that, you know, we think we are
15     smart.
16  1310                 How did we get that sitcom -- I think
17     I want to just break down how it happened and we can
18     repeat this, this is very easy to repeat.  What
19     happened was it started with "Codco".  CBC went to the
20     Maritimes, Maritimes was not very represented
21     comedy-wise, their point of view was not being
22     represented they had a theatre company that was doing
23     very well, let us put the theatre company on
24     television, that was "Codco" they did very well and
25     every one learned what they were doing when they were


 1     up to speed and up to snuff they said let us try
 2     something different, "This Hour Has 22 Minutes"
 3     started.
 4  1311                 From there that got enough momentum
 5     going and people understanding what was going on with
 6     that and the crew started getting how to work things,
 7     the writers started understanding things and we got the
 8     sitcom.  What we always tried doing in the past was let
 9     us just start from scratch do a sitcom oh, it did not
10     work well let us do another one in ten years.  This is
11     the way we can build comedy in this country.
12  1312                 Every region -- I have toured all
13     around the country, every region has their own comedy
14     and their own styles.  Saskatchewan style of comedy is
15     very different from the Maritimes, it is very different
16     from Vancouver, it is very different from up north.
17  1313                 If you want to find out what a people
18     are like, find out what makes them laugh and you will
19     get into their heart because they cannot fake that. 
20     They can fake anything else, they can lie to you, but
21     they cannot fake laughing.
22  1314                 Here is what you do.  We had a show
23     on called "Sketch Com" this year which we are going to
24     feature 12 different diverse sketch comedy troops and
25     show sort of what Canada is laughing about. 


 1     Unfortunately, they all came from the Toronto area so
 2     they all looked alike they all sounded alike they are
 3     all about guys playing poker they are all about
 4     offices.
 5  1315                 What you have got to do is find out
 6     in Saskatchewan who is the comedy troop, fly them to
 7     Toronto and have them do at least one episode of like
 8     "Sketch Com", do "Sketch Com" again but, you know, go
 9     up north, who is making them laugh up there.  I swear
10     to you, there is a troop.  I swear to you there is a
11     comedy group.  I promise you there is because I have
12     seen them.  And bring them to Toronto or wherever these
13     CBC facilities are, with costumes and props that they
14     are not using with technicians that know how to do this
15     stuff and do it.  And you will get not just good sketch
16     comedy, but you will develop your sitcoms and from your
17     sitcoms you will develop your celebrities who can go on
18     to do movies.  It won't be out of the goodness of your
19     heart, it will be because you want to see these people.
20  1316                 That is the one problem about CBC,
21     sometimes you feel like, yeah you we want CBC but it is
22     for the right reasons, it is like eating good food.  I
23     am tell telling you, it can taste like candy, it is
24     easy to do.
25  1317                 I have worked in comedy now for about


 1     ten years and it always frustrated me to walk through
 2     the CBC here and see all the costumes.
 3  1318                 There are just many rooms of costumes
 4     and see all the technicians who are brilliant
 5     technicians amazing crew and amazing facilities as it
 6     has been said.  And I always thought why could we not
 7     do a sketch comedy show much like, say, "Almost Live"
 8     does in Seattle about our city.  And I approached CBC
 9     about it and we are doing it and it has been done and
10     when the strike is over you will see it.  But there is
11     no reason that that cannot be done across this country.
12  1319                 You know, if we want to unify this
13     country there are three things that do it one is a
14     common enemy.  Unless we want a war, that is not a good
15     thing.  The States are good for that and also the
16     States are good because -- you know, second thing is if
17     your sports team is doing well, if our sports team is
18     doing well, everyone is Canadian, you know, for that
19     week and the third thing is laughter unites and so that
20     is my specific point.
21  1320                 I think that something that CBC does
22     better than anyone, even look at the comedy network the
23     best shows they have on there are reruns of "Airfarce"
24     and "Kids in the Hall" and I guess that is pretty of
25     all I've got to say.  Thank you.


 1     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 2  1321                 CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
 3     you very much.
 4  1322                 MS PINSKY:  Danielle Arcand.
 6  1323                 MME ARCAND: Bonsoir.
 7  1324                 Je vais m'exprimer en français
 8     simplement parce que c'est ma langue maternelle et puis
 9     que je suis... j'apprécie beaucoup que vous soyiez ici
10     pour nous entendre, nous, des minorités francophones
11     hors-Québec.
12  1325                 Parce que je crois que le rôle de la
13     Société Radio-Canada est en fait beaucoup de refléter
14     l'identité bilingue du Canada, et vous le faîtes
15     d'ailleurs par la présence de la Société Radio-Canada
16     du côté français.  Et ici, à Vancouver, on apprécie ça
17     beaucoup, on sent, là,  que c'est d'une importance
18     capitale.
19  1326                 Et c'est important aussi que, parce
20     que la Société... parce que la télévision et la radio,
21     et je veux parler des deux éléments de façon combinée,
22     parce qu'il me semble que, en milieu minoritaire, les
23     deux aspects sont très importants, nous servent l'un
24     autant que l'autre, et sont deux façons de refléter
25     notre communauté de la façon la plus adéquate et que


 1     ce...  En fait, on n'a pas de choix en terme de
 2     télévision, en terme... en fait, très peu de choix,
 3     quelques uns, mais très peu, donc, c'est vital pour
 4     nous, la télévision et la radio.
 5  1327                 C'est quelque chose qui nous
 6     accompagne et depuis longtemps, depuis ma petite
 7     enfance, aussi j'entends les autres présentateurs qui
 8     se réminiscent, là, l'importance de ce que Radio-Canada
 9     représente pour tout le monde.
10  1328                 C'est la même chose pour moi en tant
11     que francophone.  Et c'est important que cette société
12     demeure une entité forte, une entité indépendante,
13     donc, capable de se tenir et de prendre des décisions
14     qui ne sont pas liées à des opinions politiques du
15     temps, qu'elle soit stable, qu'elle soit bien
16     subventionnée et qu'elle puisse refléter notre identité
17     en tant que pays.
18  1329                 Maintenant, plus spécifiquement,
19     j'aimerais faire deux points principaux.  Un sur la
20     diffusion, parce que je suis ici ce soir simplement
21     pour représenter le Conseil culturel et artistique de
22     la Colombie-Britannique qui est un organisme qui a pour
23     mandat de diffuser les créateurs, les artistes
24     francophones de la Colombie-Britannique.
25  1330                 Alors, c'est important que la


 1     télévision et la radio servent justement à refléter nos
 2     communautés et ce, partout dans la Province.  Donc,
 3     l'aspect de la diffusion partout en province pour nous
 4     est très important, et la Société Radio-Canada est un
 5     partenaire de toute première importance pour la
 6     communauté artistique de Vancouver.
 7  1331                 C'est illustré dans les partenariats
 8     que nous avons eu à date, avec le Gala provincial de la
 9     chanson, où la Société Radio-Canada a mis ses locaux à
10     notre disposition, son expertise, technique et tout, et
11     pour diffuser les artistes francophones de la région,
12     de la province.
13  1332                 C'est aussi évident avec les
14     partenariats, là, avec le festival d'été, par exemple,
15     et avec... enfin, on a eu des émissions récemment avec
16     le théâtre La seizième, enfin, tous les organismes
17     culturels comptent vraiment sur la Société Radio-Canada
18     pour diffuser leurs productions et donner un soutien à
19     leurs productions aussi.
20  1333                 On aimerait voir, par exemple, les
21     coups de coeur francophones, peut-être les événements
22     qui se passent à Vancouver, diffusés à travers le
23     Canada pour que la communauté francophone de Vancouver
24     sorte un peu des limites de la Province et s'inscrive
25     dans la grande communauté canadienne, qu'elle se


 1     manifeste.
 2  1334                 J'ai l'impression que, du côté
 3     francophone, on souffre peut-être de centrisme en terme
 4     du Québec, et c'est un souhait de la communauté
 5     francophone artistique ici qu'on soit soutenu dans nos
 6     efforts de diffusion à travers le Canada.
 7  1335                 Mon deuxième point s'adresse
 8     spécifiquement aux jeunes, et après avoir entendu la
 9     présentation de monsieur Leblanc du Conseil scolaire,
10     c'est difficile pour moi, là, de porter deux chapeaux
11     parce que je suis enseignante aussi, et j'aimerais
12     appuyer son intervention parce que je la trouvais très
13     pertinente aussi.
14  1336                 Mais ce qui m'interesse plus
15     particulièrement c'est que la télévision et la radio
16     francophones représentent la culture actuelle pour les
17     jeunes, et non pas des aspects, enfin des aspects
18     plutôt foklorisants, mais que les jeunes aient le moyen
19     de se reconnaître à travers ce qui est diffusé à la
20     télévision et à la radio.
21  1337                 J'allais souligner comme l'a fait
22     monsieur Leblanc tantôt, les émissions pour les jeunes,
23     "275 Allo", et "Ado" et "Clandestin" qui sont des
24     exemples... d'excellents exemples de diffusion
25     nationale, c'est un effort d'aller dans toutes les


 1     régions et c'est à soutenir, c'est à poursuivre, de
 2     même que "Le grand défi" et les émissions qui mettent
 3     en... qui donnent la parole à nos jeunes, sont des
 4     choses vraiment à considérer de poursuivre ou de
 5     reformuler pour qu'elles correspondent à la réalité de
 6     maintenant, des jeunes.
 7  1338                 Pour ce qui est de la catégorie des
 8     jeunes, peut-être de 18 à 25 ans, bon, moi j'ai
 9     identifié, là, comme ça, en mettant mes idées sur
10     papier, "Le Macadam tribu" qui est très intéressant
11     mais de mon point de vue à moi, d'adulte, maintenant je
12     ne sais pas qui l'écoute, comment les jeunes
13     s'identifient à ça.
14  1339                 Pour ce qui est de la musique, le
15     contenu musical, oui, mais la formulation, la
16     présentation, je ne sais pas si vraiment les jeunes
17     embarquent, et en fait, ça serait à préciser.
18  1340                 Je souligne aussi l'excellent travail
19     de André Rhéaume et le fait... j'apprécie énormément le
20     fait qu'une émission de cette qualité-là, de ce
21     calibre-là, puisse être diffusée en provenance de
22     Vancouver.  Je pense que c'est un excellent appui,
23     encore une fois, la diffusion des musiques, pas
24     seulement francophones mais du monde, et ça nous fait
25     sentir, qu'en tant que francophones, on fait partie


 1     d'un grand... d'une grande communauté internationale.
 2  1341                 Mais on aimerait voir, c'est ça,
 3     le... par exemple, le Gala de la chanson quand il est
 4     diffusé localement, on aimerait voir les artistes
 5     francophones de la région ici, diffusé pas seulement
 6     régionalement, mais à travers la Province pour qu'ils
 7     aient le sens de participer à la grande communauté
 8     francophone transcanadienne.
 9  1342                 Encore une fois, la télévision est
10     très importante pour notre communauté, et la radio
11     aussi, parce que ce sont des... c'est la réalité
12     médiatique qui nous accompagne, nous ici, en français,
13     en Colombie-Britannique et dans toutes les régions
14     minoritaires du Canada.
15  1343                 Donc, à poursuivre, et à voir des
16     émissions de toute horizon, de toutes les régions,
17     c'est vraiment apprécié et on espère que ça va
18     continuer de se produire.
19  1344                 Merci beaucoup de votre temps et de
20     votre attention.
21     --- Applause / Applaudissements
22  1345                 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, madame Arcand,
23     merci.
24  1346                 MS PINSKY:  Mr. Peter Buitenhuis, I
25     apologize if I did not pronounce your name properly.


 2  1347                 MR. BUITENHUIS:  Peter Buitenhuis.  I
 3     am a professor of English at Simon Fraser but I am here
 4     tonight not as a professor of English but as an
 5     ordinary citizen like so many of us.  And I feel that
 6     there is in this room an enormous amount of emotional
 7     commitment and intellectual pride in the CBC and we
 8     have all expressed it and I am one more.  We come not
 9     to bury the CBC but to praise it.  Let me add my praise
10     to the litany.
11  1348                 The CBC in its present state in my
12     view, striking employees and uncertainty over its
13     future, because of a continuous cuts to its budget, the
14     policy of this government towards our public
15     broadcasting network seems to be, when in doubt, cut
16     and just to make sure the CBC understands, cut again. 
17     I cannot help but feel that this government resents the
18     critical attitude often taken by CBC commentators which
19     I regard as a vital aspect of its mandate.
20  1349                 In the 40 years that I have lived in
21     this country, I have been a devoted adherent to the
22     Corp., especially radio.  From early "Rawhide" to late
23     "Gzosky".  It gives us information and the questions
24     and the controversial issues that we need to make
25     decisions as informed citizens.


 1  1350                 It also entertains us with comedy,
 2     drama and talk shows on Radio One and musical and
 3     cultural affairs on Radio Two.
 4  1351                 This service must be supported and
 5     brought back to its appropriate level of funding which
 6     it enjoyed up to the early 1990s.  Anyone listening to
 7     CBC radio now realizes how many programs are repeats of
 8     previous programs, hiccups from the past as it were.
 9  1352                 This is the only way, apparently,
10     that the corporation can fill its air time.  It is
11     regrettable, too, how much regional broadcasting has
12     suffered as a result of cuts which concentrates more
13     and more air time in the hands of Toronto.
14  1353                 And I think that has been fairly
15     eloquently spoken here.  We must reinforce the
16     Vancouver network from its present sorry state.
17  1354                 The solution to this funding crisis
18     is emphatically not to privatize CBC radio.  I find
19     listening to commercial radio annoying and often
20     sickening.  I have no wish to be bombarded with
21     messages to buy this, that and the other thing for
22     which you have no need and we all know how commercial
23     sponsorship tends to be influence content.
24  1355                 CBC radio must remain able to fulfil
25     its mandate free from both commercial and political


 1     control.  Turning now to CBC TV which has received a
 2     rather bad rap here tonight, I think in relation to
 3     radio but I think it must be defended as a bastion of
 4     their cultural values.
 5  1356                 A good deal of TV broadcasting is and
 6     should be different from that provided from private
 7     stations.
 8  1357                 Only CBC TV provides dramas and
 9     documentaries that have a specific Canadian context.
10     Others dramas and sitcoms are written with Canadian
11     actors with Canadian situations but the CBC alone
12     addresses Canadian issues and vital issues.
13  1358                 For example, the program on child
14     abuse in the "Boys of Saint Vincent", a splendid drama
15     which ripped the cover off a very sleazy episode in
16     Maritime history.  Again, the program on the
17     preventable mine disaster in "Giant Mine", just to give
18     two examples of many.
19  1359                 Again, under funding has put such
20     programs as this in jeopardy.  CBC TV will be in even
21     worse shape next year after its grant from the Canadian
22     Television Fund is reduced from 50 per cent which is
23     now enjoys to only 33 per cent.
24  1360                 In light of the increasing number of
25     channel licences being issued by the CRTC to private


 1     stations, you as members of the CRTC should consider
 2     favourably the CBC's requests for additional stations
 3     for specialized programming.  So that its share of
 4     channels does not proportionately diminish with
 5     consequent loss of its share of views.  Like many
 6     Canadians, I am committed to the importance and the
 7     integrity of Canadian culture which is more and more
 8     threatened by American programming.
 9  1361                 Lastly, I am apprehensive about the
10     increasing domination of the TV channels by private and
11     commercial interests.
12  1362                 In the present climate, the private
13     stations seem to me like sharks circling in the water
14     waiting for the good ship CBC to flounder or even sink
15     as its funding leaks away.  The sharks cannot wait to
16     get their jaws around the considerable audience still
17     carried by CBC TV which represents to them more
18     customers, higher ratings, and, therefore, more dollars
19     for their programs.
20  1363                 Comparatively few of these commercial
21     programs seem to me to be directed to a critical and
22     informed audience.  A lot is terrible schlock.
23  1364                 The CBC has a proud history in this
24     country in war and peace.  Let it not flounder and sink
25     through indifference and neglect.  Thank you.


 1     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 2  1365                 CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
 3     you very much, professor, thank you.
 4  1366                 MS PINSKY:  Alma Lee is the next
 5     presenter.
 7  1367                 MS LEE:  Thank you.  I was brought up
 8     in the U.K. with the BBC and it was a relief to listen
 9     to the CBC when I first arrived in Canada 30 years ago.
10  1368                 I prefer to listen to radio than
11     watch television without commercial interruption.  And
12     public broadcasters are the only places where one can
13     do so.
14  1369                 Despite that, I think that there are
15     some things at CBC both on radio and on television
16     which are better than they have ever been, despite all
17     the economic cuts and problems that have plagued the
18     corporation.
19  1370                 As an active member of the arts
20     community, I know how much of a challenge it is to
21     continue to be innovative, especially in the area of
22     programming when one is confronted with funding cut
23     backs being particularly ones as serious as the ones
24     that have hit the CBC.  And I think that CBC producers
25     right now are doing very well under extremely


 1     constrained circumstances, both with radio and with
 2     television program and I thank them for that.
 3  1371                 As the artistic director of the
 4     Vancouver International Writers' Festival, I am
 5     particularly enthusiastic that B.C. books are
 6     considered important enough to CBC viewers to actually
 7     have a regionally produced book program booked on
 8     Saturday night.  This program is extremely supportive
 9     of the Vancouver Writers' Festival without being in any
10     way promotional and has certainly grabbed readers.  I
11     think it is also extremely important that this kind of
12     programming takes place to further the cause of
13     literacy.
14  1372                 Writers who have appeared at the
15     Vancouver festival love the interviews they do with
16     Bill Richardson at "Booked on Saturday Night" and I
17     understand that the readings increased in the second
18     season and I trust that the CBC will be able to
19     continue to show this kind of regional initiative.
20  1373                 I think that, as Peter said, you
21     know, the fact that the Vancouver region has been so
22     devastated is really a sad thing, but it is great that
23     at least this kind of regional programming is
24     happening.  Also, the success of "Davinci's Inquest"
25     nationally is a credit to the CBC as a regionally


 1     produced television series.  I must confess I am a bit
 2     prejudiced here because one of my sons is one of the
 3     editors on that show.
 4  1374                 However, I also believe having seen
 5     the show on a regular basis that it has big
 6     international potential and I think it is great for
 7     B.C. and Vancouver that both are recognized in this
 8     program for being what they are and not being presented
 9     as pretend U.S. places.
10  1375                 I just wanted to keep all my comments
11     quite short because I know that you have heard many
12     voices today and I thank you for allowing me to be one
13     of them.  I trust that the commission will continue to
14     support the CBC and the quality and style of
15     programming which is unique to the corporation so let
16     us go forward being proud of our uniqueness and the
17     CBC's part in it.  Thank you.
18     --- Applause / Applaudissements
19  1376                 CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
20     you, Mrs. Lee.
21  1377                 MS PINSKY:  The next presenter is Mr.
22     Rob Picard.
24  1378                 MR. PICARD:  Good evening, Madam
25     Chair and I, too, am a dedicated, lifelong his


 1     listener, almost half a century of CBC radio mostly.  I
 2     am pleased to be here and have the opportunity to
 3     express also my enthusiastic support for the vital
 4     cultural role which the CBC continues to play as
 5     Canada's national public broadcaster.
 6  1379                 I also want to say at the outset how
 7     distressed I am at the way the government has allowed a
 8     national treasure, I did not realize that was Nolton
 9     Nash's phrase, CBC's radio in particular to languish to
10     the extent that its very existence as we know it is in
11     peril because of a refusal to fund it adequately and
12     because of a government appointed board which does not
13     really want to understand the role of a national public
14     broadcaster.  And not incidentally because there is no
15     obvious effective corporation champion in the federal
16     cabinet.
17  1380                 How can the CBC hope to fulfil its
18     traditional mandate if it is so constrained that it
19     does not have the financial resources to resolve the
20     current labour disputes, risking even more audience
21     erosion?  In an atmosphere like this, I don't know how
22     we can expect the CBC to prepare creatively for the
23     millennium which is one of the four questions that you
24     have raised in your December 18 announcement regarding
25     the staging of these public hearings or consultations.


 1  1381                 My fear is that it cannot prepare
 2     adequately, forcing the corporation to downsize yet
 3     again and make even more painful structural changes in
 4     the near future.
 5  1382                 It may that be CBC television in
 6     particular cannot continue to try to be all things to
 7     all viewers.  Because it already enjoyed a much
 8     deserved reputation for excellence in gathering and
 9     presenting national and international news, I am going
10     to focus on this programming area for a minute or two
11     without specifically discussing regional or local news,
12     which is also important.
13  1383                 If the CBC has a natural quality
14     programming edge in Canada, news has to be considered
15     as one of the most obvious examples although certainly
16     not the only one.  News in particular needs nurturing
17     and enhancing including the ability to compete for the
18     best talent, too much of which we have already lost to
19     our powerful neighbours to the south, on competing
20     networks, usually.
21  1384                 Although not the first such
22     retrenchment, the recent decision to eliminate several
23     foreign news bureaus is not only regrettable but
24     represents a retreat from covering the world in a way
25     that we should and need to be doing in an increasingly


 1     competitive global market to use that overworked
 2     cliche.
 3  1385                 If we can retain existing operations,
 4     and/or dispatch our foreign correspondents to more
 5     places, the CBC should have the freedom to do this. 
 6     Even if it means having fewer faces and voices per
 7     bureau as more rationalization of radio television and
 8     linguistic services, i.e., between the CBC and Radio
 9     Canada, more of that takes place.
10  1386                 Even though is it has also faced
11     drastic restraints, the BBC World Service has managed
12     thankfully to maintain its news preeminence and so can
13     we.
14  1387                 Closer to home, without having to
15     resort to pledge breaks, I hope not, perhaps CBC would
16     be willing to look to the PBS model in the U.S. for
17     some pragmatic solutions could, for example, blue
18     ribbon corporate sponsorships, this is for television,
19     generate a generous portion of the income which would
20     be lost if, let us say "The National" were now to for
21     go its undoubtedly lucrative advertising revenue which
22     is a relatively new source for the CBC.
23  1388                 I think so.  I think it could be
24     without infringing on our collective sensibilities and
25     in the process this would restore the pure quality and


 1     effect of our flagship national news cast which a lot
 2     of us treasure.
 3  1389                 If the CBC would consider making
 4     Newsworld even more of a specialty service than it now
 5     is, and at the risk of being labeled as an elitist in
 6     that regard, I would like to see a Canadian version of
 7     "The Newshour" which is a very well known program on
 8     PBS for serious news viewers.  And just -- just to
 9     summarize what it does, it has 60 minutes of lively
10     panel discussions anchored by a variety of hosts and
11     includes various features and documentaries.
12  1390                 Of course, there is a news summary
13     and a recap, but this is a small component of a much
14     larger package.  If I were a CBC programmer, I would
15     put it on the network at 7 p.m. after all the other
16     competing and non-competing news casts are over.  It
17     could even be an alternative to the national at 10 on
18     Newsworld if Pamela Wallin would be willing to
19     accommodate that move.  Or at 11, but and it could be
20     designed to complement "The National" and not compete
21     with "The National" and "The Magazine".
22  1391                 Just back to CBC radio for a minute
23     at the national level, it fulfills as we all know a
24     critical service which commercial radio cannot and will
25     not provide except for some specialty FM stations here


 1     and there usually in the major urban areas of our
 2     country.  If private radio would demonstrate that it
 3     could produce quality music programs, for example, such
 4     as on stage "In Performance", "After Hours" or "Choral
 5     Concert", either commercial free or with just brief,
 6     this is commercial radio now, brief corporate
 7     sponsorship mentions which is what something that NPR
 8     does in the U.S., I would be resting a little more
 9     easily about the fate of CBC radio but I have not seen
10     or heard that yet or anything like that as a matter of
11     fact.
12  1392                 If anything, the programming between
13     our two cultures is becoming more sharply
14     differentiated and the gap, the culture gap between
15     public and private radio in this country is actually
16     wider now than it was before which helps to make the
17     case, I believe, for maintaining the CBC's fiscal and
18     programming integrity.
19  1393                 As for the CBC board of directors, it
20     is definitely time to reform the employment process and
21     include a variety of special interests and amongst whom
22     should be advocates of public broadcasting, themselves,
23     ourselves, as part of that selection process.
24  1394                 If the finance minister would free up
25     some cash to expedite an early resolution to the


 1     current labour disputes, make a credible commitment to
 2     stable, long term funding and a realistic one, too, and
 3     then take seriously the wide-ranging advice which he is
 4     or will be receiving as a result of these national
 5     public consultations, then the CBC, I believe, will
 6     actually be in a position to carve out its own distinct
 7     identity and perhaps even ensure its own survival.  Let
 8     us all hope so.  Thank you.
 9     --- Applause / Applaudissements
10  1395                 MS PINSKY:  Ms Heather Leighton is
11     the next presenter.
13  1396                 MS LEIGHTON:  Thank you for providing
14     me with this opportunity to speak with you.  My remarks
15     will be directed towards CBC Radio One which will
16     become evident why I am doing this as I go along.
17  1397                 I am a child of the isolated B.C.
18     mining camps.  In rural B.C., the radio was and still
19     is the link with the rest of the country and the world.
20  1398                 In the 1930s, my father, with the aid
21     of a huge aerial, established radio contact with the
22     station in San Francisco.  At the age of three, I knew
23     that KPO spelled San Francisco.
24  1399                 During the war years, CBC spelled
25     Vancouver and beyond Vancouver, Canada and the world.


 1  1400                 Nothing could interrupt the 9 o'clock
 2     news.  Saturday night was foster Hewitt.  Saturday
 3     afternoon, mom had the opera and weekly mornings, "The
 4     Happy Gang".
 5  1401                 I became an urban listener in 1956
 6     and raised my children to the sounds of this country in
 7     the morning and the squook bird.  You may not know that
 8     every morning, several little squooks are heard
 9     followed by ten seconds of silence when a mommy squook
10     comes on and announced that it is cookie time.  This is
11     an unintended but very important function in our house.
12  1402                 As a busy mother of four pre-school
13     children and later when they were in school I would
14     have been unable to maintain a concept of what was
15     happening across Canada without the morning programs
16     and the news coverage provided by CBC radio.
17  1403                 Today the nest is empty.  I am
18     retired.  Radio continues to play an important part in
19     my life.  I live for seven months of the year in a
20     rural community where my contact with the rest of
21     Canada is the radio and the only radio is CBC.  There
22     is a TV system which I pay tax to maintain, but which I
23     am unable to access due to my location on the lake.
24  1404                 With this background as a committed
25     CBC listener who credits CBC radio with saving my


 1     sanity and sense of perspective as a Canadian through
 2     the maze of my child rearing PTA meeting volunteering
 3     and later works years, I now address the questions
 4     suggested by the commission.
 5  1405                 How well does the CBC fulfil its role
 6     as a national public broadcaster?  The CBC, for as long
 7     as I can remember has been my window on Canada and the
 8     world.  Over the past few years, I have been
 9     discomforted by the decrease in the quantity and
10     quality of that coverage.  I miss the foreign coverage
11     provided from a Canadian view point from the now closed
12     overseas bureaus.  Nationally, we still get news from
13     coast to coast, but national news generated in Toronto
14     frequently requires an update when rebroadcast
15     unchanged in B.C. three-hours later.
16  1406                 As the national broadcaster, I
17     believe CBC is the appropriate venue for an analysis of
18     regional, national and world developments.  What effect
19     will these developments have on me, my region, my
20     province, other provinces, Canada and the world?  I
21     would appreciate hearing informed debate from Canadian
22     view points.  It is my impression this type of debate
23     occurred on radio in the past and now is almost
24     non-existent.
25  1407                 How well does the CBC fulfil its


 1     role? I would give it three and a half out of five. 
 2     There are times of excellence, "The World at 6", "as it
 3     Happens", "Ideas", "The House", "The World This
 4     Weekend" and others.  But in the face of constant
 5     budget cuts, excellent programs are downgraded to
 6     mediocre.  I am not motivated by nostalgia, I am not
 7     pleading for a return of "Morningside" or "Sunday
 8     Morning".  I believe that current employees provided
 9     with adequate journalistic, financial, technical and
10     research support are capable of returning our public
11     broadcaster to at least the 4.9 out of 5 it held in the
12     past.
13  1408                 A return to excellence should be the
14     objective of the new millennium.
15     --- Applause / Applaudissements
16  1409                 MS LEIGHTON:  CBC has been mandated
17     to counter the forces of regional alienation.  That
18     alienation often seems most evident in rural areas.  I
19     suggest that improved world coverage would serve to
20     provide Canadians living in the hinterland an
21     understanding and appreciation of the facts, stories
22     and visions of our unique aspirations and culture.
23  1410                 I ask:  How can Canadians develop a
24     concept of what it means to be Canadian if all
25     Canadians are not kept apprised of what is happening


 1     across the country and around the world, including
 2     analysis of what these events mean both locally and
 3     nationally.
 4  1411                 Evidence of reduced funding for
 5     regional programming is constantly revealed.  If CBC
 6     radio is the only option, repeat programs are an
 7     increasingly evident fact of life.
 8  1412                 Hourly news broadcasts cease to be
 9     news when they are word-for-word repeats for most of
10     the day.
11  1413                 Weather forecasts unalterred from
12     hour to hour are unhelpful when a glance out the window
13     proves their inaccuracy.  Weekends are almost devoid of
14     local news.
15  1414                 In Vancouver, the weekday early
16     morning program provides a satisfying view of local and
17     provincial issues, not so in rural B.C.  In Goldbridge,
18     where I live over half the year, there is a small radio
19     repeater.  I can access the speaker but many living in
20     the area have the signal blocked by mountain ridges. 
21     In the evening, the signal is too weak to overcome the
22     many garbled transmissions that come on occasion from
23     as far as way as Texas.  Once it gets dark, the radio
24     gets weird.  We even pick up an echo, probably from the
25     Lillooet CBC transmitter which broadcasts on the same


 1     frequency as Goldbridge.  Radio Two is not available
 2     and I understand that this is the case in most of rural
 3     B.C.
 4  1415                 Our morning program originates from
 5     Kelowna and in the summer from Kelowna and Prince
 6     George or from Prince George and Prince Rupert.  This
 7     program is charged with covering far too big an area. 
 8     Aside from advising us that once again our road is
 9     closed, often with incorrect information, we hear
10     nothing of local interest or concern unless Lillooet
11     was the hottest place in Canada.
12  1416                 Our transmitter ceased to operate
13     five minutes before the leaders' debate was due to
14     start prior to the last federal election.  Service was
15     not restored for several days.  We missed the debate,
16     there are those who say we are lucky, but we missed the
17     debate and we missed any subsequent analysis of the
18     debate.
19  1417                 Why in the Vancouver phone book there
20     is an 800 number to call for technical fault reporting. 
21     There is no such number in Goldbridge where we have
22     technical faults all the time.
23  1418                 In fact, there is no listing for CBC
24     found in any of the four communities in the Lillooet
25     Litton area phone book.  Should a local event occur of


 1     interest to the rest of the province, there is no easy
 2     access to CBC to advise the network of the event.
 3  1419                 The noon show from Vancouver does
 4     make an effort to bring the issues of rural B.C. to the
 5     attention of the whole province.  However, at a time
 6     inconvenient for many.
 7  1420                 I suggest it is of paramount
 8     importance to strengthen the regional programming and
 9     transmission capabilities of the corporation.  For
10     safety reasons, all rural residents must have access to
11     accurate, up to date weather and road conditions.  In
12     the interests of national and provincial unity, and
13     understanding, all rural residents must have access to
14     accurate, up to date reports on the events across the
15     province and the nation.
16  1421                 If anyone thinks that private
17     broadcasters have any commitment to fulfils these
18     needs, rural B.C., I can only say give your head a
19     shake, examine the record.
20     --- Applause / Applaudissements
21  1422                 MS LEIGHTON:  Should the programming
22     provided by CBC radio be different from that provided
23     by other broadcasters?  In my view, the CBC's candidate
24     is to sell Canada, its perspectives, its values and its
25     culture to Canadians.  Commercial broadcasters' mission


 1     is to sell tooth paste to the toothless and the value
 2     of the multinationals to us all.
 3  1423                 The programming provided by CBC must
 4     be different and that difference requires the support
 5     of all Canadians.
 6  1424                 I urge the CRTC to encourage the
 7     government to reverse the drastic reductions in funding
 8     that has occurred over the past decade.  I ask also
 9     that the CRTC remind the government of the original
10     mandate of the CBC and require of the government to
11     fulfil that mandate.
12  1425                 Private broadcasters locked in a
13     battle to attract listeners and advertising dollars
14     provide sensational, often irrelevant news coverage.
15  1426                 A mother and children murdered in the
16     southern U.S., a deranged teen shooting up a school
17     yard in California, speculation on what the U.S.
18     president is doing tonight and with whom.
19  1427                 The CBC should provide a different
20     view.
21  1428                 Why are the sexual activities of
22     president Clinton the lead story in the national news? 
23     Unless the U.S. president's actions affect Canadian
24     foreign policy, or U.S. attitudes to Canada, I suggest
25     these items be relegated to the end of the broadcast to


 1     be dropped if displaced by reports of important
 2     developments in Canada or Canadian communities.
 3     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 4  1429                 MS LEIGHTON:  CBC must stand apart
 5     from private broadcasters as an organization dedicated
 6     to keeping Canadians Canadian and to instilling a love
 7     for the Canadian Commonwealth.
 8  1430                 Is there a special role for the
 9     CBC -- is there a special role that the CBC should play
10     in the presentation of Canadian broadcasting --
11     programming?  Without the CBC, what medium will tell
12     Canadians about other Canadians?  What medium will
13     provide a show case for Canadian artistic talent? What
14     medium will provide a cross country and panpolitical
15     analysis of world events from our view point?  Yes,
16     there is a special role for CBC to play and that role
17     must be adequately funded.  Without that role, and
18     without that funding, we are, to quote Darryl Duke: 
19     Lost, doomed to be a pathetic northern territory of the
20     holy American empire and, I add, pawns of the
21     multinational corporate agenda.
22     --- Applause / Applaudissements
23  1431                 MS LEIGHTON:  When I was three, I
24     knew KPO spelled San Francisco.  As a young adult, I
25     felt CBC spelled Vancouver and Canada.  Without


 1     political support, and a major increase in funding of
 2     both local and national programming, and a commitment
 3     to the developing and producing of original Canadian
 4     view points and art, CBC will no longer spell Canada to
 5     me.  Thank you.
 6     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 7  1432                 CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
 8     you very much.
 9  1433                 MS PINSKY:  Mr. Bill Beck is the next
10     presenter.
12  1434                 MR. BECK:  I see the CBC as being
13     important with all that helps to hold this country
14     together.  Now, I have already lost much of the
15     railway, the value of both railways, CN and CP
16     because -- any way that is another point, another
17     story.
18  1435                 I was very much maddened by the
19     promise of our Prime Minister that there was going to
20     be stable funding for the -- for this broadcaster and
21     then lo and behold, as they say, in the following
22     years, after he got elected, further cuts occurred.
23  1436                 Now, to be sure, CBC seems to have
24     done an heroic job of putting out fairly high quality
25     programming with the money that they have got left. 


 1     But I have been disappointed as to what has been
 2     dropped over the last 13 years.
 3  1437                 For example, "The Medicine Show" on
 4     Wednesday evening, "The Food Show" on Sunday morning,
 5     "12:30 almanac", agricultural details like they
 6     mentioned, you know, various live stock and feeder
 7     cattle and that sort of thing.  And along with a very
 8     high grade weather forecast that John Pachalt was
 9     putting on.
10  1438                 We have lost "Gilmore's Albums" now
11     it is true that is because Mr. Gilmore died, but the
12     least we could have done is perhaps get someone else to
13     carry that on.  Because that was very good.
14  1439                 What we have got in its place is, in
15     my opinion, very often kind of banal although I guess,
16     you know, "The Vinyl Cafe", Stuart McLean does a
17     reasonably good job but is my personal feeling that it
18     was not nearly as good as what it replaced -- what was
19     replaced by it.
20  1440                 But I am of the same opinion that a
21     lot of other people who have spoken so far that private
22     commercial radio cannot begin to supply the kind of
23     quality broadcasting that CBC does when their mind is
24     always -- minds are always on the bottom line and
25     making a profit.


 1  1441                 I've been talking about radio so far.
 2     Now, as far as the CBC TV is concerned, I do not watch
 3     TV but I still think it should be kept and it should be
 4     improved.  Like, there are a lot of good programs on
 5     like "The Nature Of Things" that I have heard about
 6     that are uniquely Canadian and probably do a very good
 7     job of educating.
 8  1442                 Other TV shows like there could be
 9     what, the remaining 499 channels, they have got nothing
10     on I would not be surprised, just idle soap operas and
11     a lot of other trash that is bent purely on
12     entertainment and then with long commercial breaks that
13     encourage people to buy more and more stuff that they
14     probably cannot use winds up in a dump, et cetera, more
15     and more larger polluting vehicles.
16  1443                 I remember the happy memories of CBUT
17     programming going back to the 50s, I remember the
18     "Maggie Muggins", for example, and they probably had a
19     lot of other things, they have got a lot of educational
20     shows on in the morning just when I had to go to school
21     which was probably -- probably would have given me a
22     far better education watching it on TV than in the
23     classroom where I was half asleep any ways.
24  1444                 My feeling is that they should --
25     CRTC should get back to the Prime Minister and this is


 1     to echo what is been said earlier this evening and
 2     badger him, badger the daylights out of him if
 3     necessary to restore the regional funding to the CBC
 4     like promised, as he promised.  Because after all, he
 5     might lose his driver's licence too, one day and he
 6     will -- maybe even his eyesight and he will want to
 7     listen to the CBC.  Eyesight is often the first thing
 8     that goes when you get older and the Prime Minister is
 9     already in the middle of his seventh decade of life. 
10     So it is in his own best interest to restore funding.
11  1445                 Thank you very much, I am afraid that
12     is all I have to say I have not really prepared very
13     well at all.  Thanks for having me on.
14     --- Applause / Applaudissements
15  1446                 CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
16     you very much and we rate you as a great supporter.
17     Thank you.
18  1447                 MS PINSKY:  Mrs. Stewart Muldoon.
20  1448                 MS MULDOON:  Thank you very much for
21     this opportunity to speak to you this evening about the
22     subject of the CBC.  In your questionnaire you ask us
23     in your view how well does the CBC fulfil its role as a
24     national public broadcaster.  I would say that it does
25     as well as can be expected with the limited funds that


 1     it has.  It continues to have extremely high standards
 2     and provide tremendous entertainment and enlightenment,
 3     but I would urge the federal government and the CRTC to
 4     give the message to the politicians in Ottawa to
 5     increase the funding to the CBC.  It is crucial to the
 6     survival of our country and our culture.
 7  1449                 The question that you asked in the
 8     new millennium, should the CBC fulfil its role in a
 9     different manner than it has in the past, I think it
10     should continue as it has but also expand its regional
11     and local and national programming.  I would have an
12     idea for the CBC TV that it would broadcast a lot of
13     local productions both of local dramas, local ballet or
14     dance productions and musical events.
15  1450                 I know that often we will read or
16     hear about a wonderful play going on in Victoria or
17     perhaps in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, there was a play
18     recently I called about called paper wheat, probably
19     taking place on the Prairies.  I would have loved to
20     have seen that production.  And to take a CBC TV crew
21     into these local productions and film them for all of
22     Canada or for at least the local or regional population
23     to view would be tremendous, a tremendous pleasure and
24     gift to Canadians and also a great impetus to
25     encouraging and letting Canadians know about our


 1     artists, such as the gentleman over here has suggested.
 2  1451                 Then the question is asked how well
 3     does the CBC serve the public on a regional as well as
 4     a national level and I think I have probably answered
 5     that with my previous comment that I would like to see
 6     this expanded both in the terms of arts and also in
 7     perhaps possibly political arena and then certainly in
 8     cultural and social events that are going on in the
 9     community to advertise those and make people in the
10     area aware of when he is going on and to talk to
11     prominent people on the -- people who are prominent on
12     the local level as well as the national and regional
13     level that we would very seldom get an opportunity to
14     do on commercial radio or TV.
15  1452                 Let us see, the other questions are
16     to see whether your needs and expectations as listeners
17     and viewers of the CBC.  My need is for the CBC to
18     continue, particularly for the radio.
19  1453                 I have to confess where I watch most
20     of the presentations and programs from the CBC.  But I
21     know that the CBC TV are doing a wonderful job also in
22     programs like their autobiographies of prominent
23     Canadians, "Life and Times", for example, "The Nature
24     of Things", the science programmes such as "Nature of
25     Things" and the comedy programs that have been referred


 1     to as well as the national news.
 2  1454                 So we need to have the CBC continue
 3     and I expect and my expectation is that it will
 4     continue and expand and my demand of the federal
 5     government is that it does continue and expand.
 6  1455                 So that is just to answer those
 7     specific questions.  I hope that it has been of some
 8     use.
 9  1456                 I want to watch the time here.  My
10     background is I have travelled from Canada -- in Canada
11     from upon venture in Newfoundland, where the Vikings
12     landed, through Prince Edward Island, the Gaspé,
13     Halifax, Cape Breton Island, and I have done this with
14     my family, not just by myself, at my initiative, into
15     Quebec onto the Island of Montreal where I grew up and
16     learned to speak French, into the wonderful area of
17     Muskoka, down to the wonderful Niagara-on-the-Lake to
18     see theatre there, into Fort William and the majesty of
19     Lake Superior onto the Prairies, Regina, on to Jasper
20     and Lake Louise, magnificent, and onto the Dinosaur
21     Park on to Barkerville, in B.C. where we have the
22     history of the gold miners there and on to Tofino on
23     beautiful Vancouver Island as well as Stanley Park and
24     other wonderful spots across this country.
25  1457                 We have a magnificent country.  I


 1     have a master of library science from UBC so I
 2     appreciate the literature that is reviewed on the CBC. 
 3     I am a former member of City Council in my community so
 4     I enjoy the political coverage and I have -- I am an
 5     owner of a family business that has operated for over
 6     20 years and employs something like 20 to 30 people and
 7     so I enjoy national news and business coverage as well.
 8  1458                 So I speak from all that background
 9     for my great love for the CBC and I believe that the
10     CBC is the heart of Canada, it is the voice of Canada
11     and, as others have said, it is the glue that keeps
12     Canada together.  It is absolutely essential to our
13     country and to our culture and to our identity.  It is
14     intellectual manna, if you like.
15  1459                 We do not want to be drowned and
16     awash with American trite, violent, abusive music and
17     programs.  It accesses and it brings its enlightenment
18     and entertainment to large and small communities as
19     people have already said here.  It touches people of
20     all ages whether it is "Mr. Dressup", whom I adore, and
21     "Maggie Mullins" which I do remember.  Hard sometimes
22     to admit that but I remember gathering around the radio
23     as a family and listening to radio programs such as
24     "Maggie Mullins".  It was a wonderful time when I
25     listened to and watched "The Family Pluff", absolutely


 1     wonderful when we lived in Montreal and it gave me a
 2     sense of what French Canadians are and nothing else
 3     could have done that.
 4  1460                 It probably drove my desire to learn
 5     French and I learned French from speaking with the
 6     local people on the Island of Montreal not in the
 7     school system that is how I learned it and it was
 8     probably things like that show that inspired that, that
 9     made me comfortable to try that.
10  1461                 So it gives people, as has been said,
11     the elderly, too, the shut-ins, imagine all these
12     people who have limited financial means, the elderly
13     particularly, perhaps, who can turn on the radio and be
14     in touch with their fellow Canadians and have that
15     tremendous culture and enlightenment of what is going
16     on in their world.  It is invaluable.
17  1462                 It provides access to excellent
18     quality in music, whether it is listening to Holgar
19     Peterson on "Saturday Night Live" driving home from a
20     Saturday night hockey game and just enjoying the rhythm
21     of the music or listening to drama or the wonderful
22     books in print I think it is called that is probably
23     not the right title but the wonderful program on radio
24     perhaps someone can help me with the name, "Writers and
25     Company".  Wonderful program.


 1  1463                 The dramas, the science "Quirks and
 2     Quarks", absolutely wonderful program that we will get
 3     know where else and no one else will fill that void.
 4  1464                 There was a statement said here
 5     tonight someone else will come in and fill it.  I know
 6     in my heart that nobody else will fill that void that
 7     the CBC is doing now.  Either in radio or in television
 8     so we have to have it continue and give it the funding
 9     so that it can expand.  We have tremendous talent in
10     the technicians but also in the artists in the writers,
11     in the philosophers in the scientists such as David
12     Suzuki.  Let us expose Canadians to more of these
13     people and artists and production as I've already
14     mentioned a little bit about.
15  1465                 The French language network and the
16     Canadian -- the English speaking networks, too, are
17     very essential to give people of these different
18     language background in Canada hopefully an unbiased
19     opinion of what is going on in each part of the country
20     so that we do not rely on the press in Quebec to
21     interpret the rest of Canada to the people, the French
22     speaking people in Quebec and vice versa.
23  1466                 And as presenters said today, as best
24     as I was able to understand them, and I think it was
25     fairly well, thank goodness, it is essential to the


 1     French speaking people of this country to make them
 2     feel at home across this country that they are tied in
 3     with their culture and that they are being supported in
 4     their culture and learning about the world in terms of
 5     their own culture and language.
 6  1467                 Let me see here.  It is also very
 7     valuable, as I think one of the presenters has already
 8     said for emersion, French emersion students to have
 9     this, the television and the radio as sources of
10     current vibrant communication in both languages.
11  1468                 A lot of people like myself do not
12     watch TV or want to spend hours sitting in front of a
13     computer on the Internet and using that new technology
14     to be so called informed.  We all know how much garbage
15     apparently there is on the Internet and how hard it is
16     to find something worthwhile.  So a lot of people like
17     do not want to watch TV or do not do so either by
18     choice or by lifestyle or because they are travelling a
19     great deal on the roads.
20  1469                 The radio is so easy.  You just turn
21     it on, you can be doing anything, you can be washing
22     the floor, changing diapers, driving a truck, painting
23     a house and you will be informed and enlightened.
24  1470                 The CBC is a national treasure, I
25     wish Peter Gzosky were still here I wish Vicky Gabereau


 1     were here.  When they had their programs it was like a
 2     village notice board we knew what was going on every
 3     where in the country and people were in tears when
 4     Peter Gzosky resigned.  You have no idea the amount of
 5     emotion and we all know he was like a rock hero, every
 6     one turned out.
 7  1471                 CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  We
 8     live in Canada, too.
 9  1472                 MS MULDOON:  Excuse me.  Perhaps you
10     were in tears, also, because we just loved him and I
11     miss him tremendously and I have to say my least
12     favourite part of CBC radio is the two hours with Bill
13     Richardson that is the only time I turn off CBC.  If
14     anyone else agrees with me please clap because I tell
15     you that man, he has his charms, but to listen to it
16     day after day for two hours at a time, it wears very
17     thin.  And the programming is listening to someone in
18     Moose Jaw talk about their broken washing machine.  I
19     want to hear about national news, I want to hear about
20     exciting things of merit not something I would hear on
21     a phone in line.
22  1473                 Anyway, so that to me is the weakest
23     part and it is the only time in my life I have ever
24     turned off CBC believe me I do and I do it with great
25     sadness be of that of be that of whatever merit or


 1     importance.
 2  1474                 The CBC offers a tremendous
 3     opportunity as has already been talked about for us to
 4     educate Canadians about our past, our present and our
 5     future.  Whether it is talking about the history of the
 6     courier de bois or the Ukrainians coming out to the
 7     Prairies, the Red River Scottish settlers, let us use
 8     the TV, our wonderful writers to write stories and
 9     autobiographies and historical accounts of our past. 
10     Let us have more about science and Canadian literature,
11     let us have some stories with on the television, too,
12     of Canadian authors, children's authors or whatever
13     reading their stories for children.
14  1475                 Really, the opportunity is endless
15     and very, very exciting and tremendously worthwhile.
16  1476                 Let me see here.  And as others have
17     said, we need it to counter the bombardment we have
18     from the U.S. media and the corporations in the
19     multinational corporations particularly coming out of
20     the U.S.
21  1477                 It is our most precious -- the CBC is
22     our most precious cultural heritage it is vibrant it is
23     living it encompasses the past, the present and the
24     future and it is tremendously important to us.
25  1478                 I think we should as others have


 1     suggested we examine the re-examine the appointments of
 2     the caretakers of the CBC because they have a
 3     tremendously valuable entity that they are to care for
 4     us.
 5  1479                 I think we should increase regional
 6     budgets and in-house productions on a regional and
 7     local level.  The CBC, as I've mentioned, has
 8     tremendous work for isolated individuals and isolated
 9     communities.
10  1480                 The TV and the radio give
11     tremendous -- as has been suggested again give
12     tremendous cultural enlightenment and entertainment to
13     people away from cosmopolitan areas, cities such as
14     Toronto Montreal or Vancouver who cannot get in to see
15     jazz or musical presentations.  We deserve that, to be
16     in contact with that culture and information and
17     current affairs.
18  1481                 I would suggest that to increase the
19     flow between the CBC and the public that we create an
20     800 number where people can call in with their ideas
21     for programming foreperson they will and for comments
22     and also that perhaps the CBC present public semiannual
23     or annual reports and advertise them as being available
24     gratis, free of charge, on request so that we are aware
25     of what is going on with our beloved and tremendously


 1     important CBC.
 2  1482                 Also, I would suggest, too, that the
 3     people at CBC examine public broadcasting systems
 4     elsewhere in the world so that we can people I've
 5     mentioned, the BBC, let us look at other public
 6     broadcasting across -- throughout the world and see if
 7     we can borrow the best ideas and help improve
 8     ourselves.
 9  1483                 CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION: 
10     Excuse me, Mrs. Stuart, could you summarize, please?
11     Because it has been 15 minutes and it has been a long
12     day for many of us.
13  1484                 MS MULDOON:  Thank you very much,
14     Merci beaucoup.
15  1485                 Rather than talking about the death
16     of the CBC, none of us will tolerate that.  We are just
17     a small representation here.  Canadians feel
18     passionately about the CBC, it is our friend, it such
19     touches our nerve, our souls, our mind.  And rather
20     than talking about its diminution, I talk about the
21     expansion of excellence, not a return to excellence but
22     an expansion of excellence and I urge and demand on
23     behalf of all Canadians of all cultures of all ages of
24     all regions to put forward and I put forward a demand
25     for this expansion of the CBC.


 1  1486                 Let me see.  In conclusion I would
 2     just say that it is again say to you that it is our
 3     most precious cultural heritage and people speak of the
 4     impending death of the CBC, all I can say is that we
 5     shall not let it die.  It is too important.  Thank you
 6     very much.
 7     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 8  1487                 CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Thank
 9     you.
10  1488                 MS PINSKY:  Ms Sinéed Fostad.
12  1489                 MS FOSTAD:  Thank you.  Good evening,
13     excuse me, it dawned on me this morning with some
14     amusement that I would not likely be alive today if it
15     hadn't been for the CBC.  I have been thinking about
16     how much the CBC has been part of my life and about how
17     it permeated my childhood when on Sundays the entire
18     house vibrated with music as dad cranked up the radio,
19     tuned into the CBC.  I have been thinking about how
20     today, as good traditions are passed from one
21     generation to the next.  It is our daughters who
22     conduct the symphonies on their way to school in the
23     car.  The following arts report which, if I have heard
24     the entire report means the girls are late for school,
25     keeps me connected to the many passions that fill my


 1     life.
 2  1490                 Often times my drama instrumental,
 3     visual arts students have benefited from some gem of
 4     relevance scooped from this program.
 5  1491                 I admired the CBC for valuing other
 6     people's words when a fellow member of the Northshore
 7     Writers' Association read to us their award winning
 8     literacy -- literary piece which had been broadcast
 9     over the CBC radio.  And I was also thinking about how
10     I feel more connected to people throughout the province
11     after having watched broadcast one.
12  1492                 Regional in-depth reporting is
13     presented in such a way as to allow a more human
14     element of the story to surface.  Most recently our
15     family was involved directly with broadcast one.  The
16     CBC followed the progress of our daughter through a
17     pilot research project, the results of which had the
18     possibility of helping physically disabled children.
19  1493                 After collecting footage for over a
20     two-year period, instead of a short blurb appearing on
21     the nightly news, broadcast one ran a mini documentary
22     skillfully edited which interwoven factual material,
23     information with the emotional element of a child
24     taking their first steps.
25  1494                 Erica Johnson, the


 1     director-interviewer was sensitive to our wish not to
 2     sensationalize this new walking device.  The
 3     documentary also served to demystify some of our
 4     special needs population by showing the human side of
 5     social interaction and inclusion.
 6  1495                 Furthermore, this exposure helped to
 7     promote the development of a program enabling access to
 8     all children of B.C. and people all over the province
 9     were connected to information they might never have
10     received otherwise.
11  1496                 The results were life changing.  The
12     first five children are up and walking.  These are
13     children confined to wheelchairs.  The CBC did a good
14     deed.
15  1497                 For the future I would like to see
16     the CBC continue to put a human spin on news.  I would
17     like to see them continue to connect the country the
18     way they have in the past through their reporting.
19  1498                 I would like to see them present more
20     news of our northern Canadians and First Nations
21     people.  I don't know if there exists right now but I
22     would like to perhaps see a youth-run program, CBC
23     program.  I think the youth is very important to this
24     country and the future of the CBC.
25  1499                 And I would also like not to see the


 1     CBC adopt the more recent adolescent roving moving
 2     camera technique which makes me physically nauseous.
 3     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 4  1500                 MS FOSTAD:  After about 30 seconds I
 5     want to give the camera man a tripod.  I switch the
 6     channel.
 7  1501                 I owe a bit of a thank you to the CBC
 8     being probably a big one.  Evidently, a tall, good
 9     looking man in the bass section became enamoured with a
10     striking redhead in the alto section during a live
11     Sunday CBC broadcast of choral music.  Ultimately the
12     CBC experienced a substantial increase in their fan
13     club after these two met, four other siblings and I
14     were born.  So, in closing, I would like to say that
15     because the CBC has always been a part of my life, it
16     has been -- it has become a part of me.
17  1502                 Because I identify the CBC as being
18     Canadian, I cannot imagine being Canadian without it. 
19     So I truly support the CBC.  Thank you very much.
20  1503                 CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  You
21     very much.
22  1504                 MS PINSKY:  Those are all the
23     presenters for this evening, Madam Chair.
24  1505                 CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  If
25     the CBC is present if they wish to respond.


 2  1506                 MR. MONTAGUE: Merci, madame la
 3     Présidente.
 4  1507                 Rassurez-vous, d'abord, la journée a
 5     été fort intéressante mais comme vous l'avez dit
 6     tantôt, fort longue aussi donc, mes commentaires seront
 7     brefs.
 8  1508                 My name is Lyle Montague.  I am a
 9     representative of the French television stations in
10     Western Canada, la télévision française dans l'Ouest
11     canadien, for small but vital stations to paraphrase
12     someone on the CBC.  But I am also speaking on behalf
13     of my regional network colleagues who were here today. 
14     We were here to listen and we heard many voices.  We
15     heard some very passionate voices and much of what we
16     heard was very positive, and that was heartening. 
17     Indeed, we heard some wonderful tributes to the
18     excellence of the people that put our programs to air,
19     both on radio and television, in French and English,
20     and we fully share those opinions.
21  1509                 We heard some thoughtful, intelligent
22     criticisms as well.  And sometimes criticism is hard to
23     take, but I like to believe that we are open minded
24     enough to know that growth and change is only -- it is
25     maybe not impossible without constructive criticism but


 1     it is certainly more difficult.  So we will learn from
 2     those criticisms.
 3  1510                 Many important issues were raised and
 4     I will not begin to respond to them tonight, but I
 5     would like to assure each presenter that we will be
 6     responding directly to each individual and each group
 7     that made a presentation this morning, this afternoon,
 8     this evening and tomorrow morning.
 9  1511                 In the meantime I would just like to
10     say how grateful we are to everyone who took the time
11     and effort to come out to respond to the invitation of
12     the CBC and speak out on CBC and Radio-Canada.
13  1512                 Quelques petits mots, en terminant,
14     aux gens qui ont fait une présentation qui traitait
15     spécifiquement de la radio française dans l'Ouest pour
16     leur dire que nous sommes très, très, conscients du
17     rôle spécial de Radio-Canada comme producteur, comme
18     unique producteur en langue française dans l'Ouest, et
19     que nous continuons à vouloir travailler avec ces
20     gens-là, les communautés, pour mieux répondre aux
21     besoins multiples d'une communauté en situation
22     minoritaire.
23  1513                 I think I will just leave it at that,
24     Madam Chairperson, thank you very much.
25     --- Applause / Applaudissements


 1  1514                 CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMISSION:  Merci
 2     beaucoup.  That concludes our evening and our day of
 3     consultation.
 4  1515                 I want to remind you of a few
 5     important dates as I have explained at the beginning of
 6     the session this consultation is part of the public
 7     process conducting to the renewal of the licences of
 8     the CBC.  The application for those renewals will be
 9     gazetted on the 27th of March.  So we will be available
10     for you if you want to take reading of it and if you
11     want to pursue your intervention of today with further
12     written intervention, you will have until the 30th of
13     April to do so.
14  1516                 The hearing will be held in Hull from
15     the 25th of May to the 11th of June and you can be
16     assured that your comments today and the ones of all
17     the Canadians who feel the importance of the role of
18     the CBC that we have heard in 11 cities will be part of
19     the public record and we feel staff and commissioners
20     who have participated in those consultations a special
21     responsibility to carry your message and really engage
22     in a dialogue with the CBC at that hearing about your
23     concerns and preoccupations.
24  1517                 Tomorrow there is still a morning of
25     consultation and it will be a regional commissioner


 1     Cindy Grauer for the British Columbia and, of course,
 2     Mrs. Vogel and Mrs. Pinsky will be here to pursue the
 3     consultation to make sure that we have heard all the
 4     citizens who wanted to come forward like you did today.
 5  1518                 And so it is going to be -- we start
 6     at 9 tomorrow morning.
 7  1519                 To the court reporter, the
 8     translators, thank you for making sure that we have
 9     memory of that important day of consultation.
10  1520                 To all of you, have a good evening,
11     good night, rather.  Thank you.
12     --- Applause / Applaudissements
13     --- Whereupon the consultation adjourned at 2150
14         to resume on Wednesday, March 17, 1999
15         at 0900 / Le consultation est ajournée à 2150,
16         pour reprendre le mercredi 17 mars 1999 à 0900

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