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Providing Content in Canada's Official Languages

Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.



                       SUBJECT / SUJET:

                  SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

Gallery II                              Gallery II
Landmark Hotel &                        Landmark Hotel &
Conference Centre                       Conference Centre
1400 Robson Street                      1400, rue Robson
Vancouver, B.C                          Vancouver (C.-B.)

March 16, 1999                          Le 16 mars 1999

tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668


In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.


Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.


                 Canadian Radio-television and
                 Telecommunications Commission

              Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
                télécommunications canadiennes

                  Transcript / Transcription

              Public Hearing / Audience publique

                  SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)


Cindy Grauer                            Chairperson / Présidente


Marguerite Vogel                        Commission Counsel /
                                        Avocat du Conseil

Susan Englebert                         Regional Director,
                                        Vancouver Regional Office /
                                        Directeur régional,

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

Gallery II                              Gallery II
Landmark Hotel &                        Landmark Hotel &
Conference Centre                       Conference Centre
1400 Robson Street                      1400, rue Robson
Vancouver, B.C                          Vancouver (C.-B.)

March 16, 1999                          Le 16 mars 1999


Presentation by / Présentation par:

Mr. Robert Everton                                           5

Ms Wendy Holm                                               12

Mr. Mark Jaworski                                           16

Mr. Roger Bose                                              23

Ms Sabra Woodworth                                          30

Ms Valerie Jerome                                           37

Mr. Stuart Parker                                           43

Ms Ellie O'Day                                              50

Mr. Chris Richmond                                          55

Ms Annette LeBox                                            60

Ms Linda Fletcher                                           66

Mr. Kim Williams                                            70

Mr. David Catton                                            77

Reply / Réplique

Ms Susan Englebert                                          84


Presentation by / Présentation par:

Mr. Morley Sutter                                           89

Ms Jennifer Sullivan                                        96

Mr. Harold Funk                                            101

Mr. Gordon Lenfesty                                        104

Mr. Stanley Fox                                            111

Mr. Don Hamilton                                           120

Ms Barb Brett                                              128

Ms Judy Fawcett                                            136

Ms Mary Ellen Hatch                                        140

Ms Audrey Graham                                           141

Mr. Paul Ohannesian                                        145

Mr. Jim Whitworth                                          153

Mr. Leslie Millen                                          156

Ms Mia Weinberg                                            163

Ms Doris McNab                                             166

Ms Robyn Smith and the Raging Grannies                     173

Mr. and Mrs. Ray Walker                                    175

Mr. Laurie Payne                                           180

Mr. T. H. Reid                                             189

Ms Frederica Bolton                                        192

Ms Shirley Ridalls                                         194

Mr. Robert Tivy                                            202

Mr. Iain Benson                                            205

Reply / Réplique

Ms Susan Englebert                                         209


Presentation by / Présentation par:

Mr. Sean O'Connell                                         214

Mr. Clive Court                                            223

Ms Linda Stedfield                                         231

Ms Maria Hackett                                           235

Mr. Nigel Peck                                             239

Mr. Digby Peers                                            242

Dr. Olga Kempo                                             246

Ms Noni Mate                                               250

Mr. Michael O'Shea                                         257

Mr. George Laverock                                        264

Ms Irene Javor                                             269

Mr. David Lemon                                            273

Ms Shirley Young                                           281

Ms Evelyn Parsons                                          288

Ms Anne-Marie Lawrence                                     292

Ms Josee Lebel                                             301

Ms Gwen Chute                                              307

Ms Karen Planden                                           312

Mr. Mike MacNaughton                                       321

Ms Eugenia Torvick                                         322

Mr. Ingo Breig                                             325

Reply / Réplique

Ms Susan Englebert                                         326


 1                         Vancouver, B.C. / Vancouver (C.-B.)
 2     --- Upon commencing on Tuesday, March 16, 1999
 3         at 0907 / L'audience reprend le mardi
 4         16 mars 1999, à 0907
 5  1                    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good day, ladies
 6     and gentlemen, and welcome to this public consultation
 7     on the CBC.
 8  2                    My name is Cindy Grauer and I am a
 9     CRTC Commissioner for British Columbia and the Yukon.
10  3                    We are here to gather your views and
11     comments on CBC radio and television.  In your opinion,
12     how should the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation fulfil
13     its role in the coming years?
14  4                    The CBC is a national public service,
15     broadcasting in English as well as in French.  It plays
16     an important role in the Canadian broadcasting system. 
17     Today, many elements are constantly being added to the
18     broadcasting system, as new technologies multiply,
19     converge, open up new horizons, and increasingly offer
20     new services.  In this context, we want to know what
21     are your needs and expectations as viewers and
22     listeners of the CBC.
23  5                    Given that, it is very important that
24     the Commission hears what you have to say.  We must not
25     lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public


 1     organization that serves Canadian citizens.  In this
 2     capacity, we are responsible to you.  This is why my
 3     fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to come
 4     and meet with you to discuss these issues and why we
 5     are holding this series of regional consultations, from
 6     one end of the country to the other, in eleven Canadian
 7     cities, from March 9th to 18th.
 8  6                    These consultations are designed to
 9     give you a chance, on the eve of a new millennium, to
10     express your opinion on the CBC's role, the programming
11     it offers and the direction it should take at the
12     national, regional and local levels.
13  7                    Through these consultations we hope
14     to enter into an open dialogue with you and to hear
15     your concerns.  Your comments will form part of the
16     public record which will be added to the record of the
17     public hearing on the CBC that will begin in Hull, next
18     May 25th.
19  8                    At this upcoming hearing, the
20     Commission will examine the CBC's application for the
21     renewal of its licences, including radio, television
22     and its specialty services, Newsworld and Réseau de
23     l'information.  You can also take part in that public
24     hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 
25     If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the


 1     specific licence renewals being examined when you file
 2     your comments.
 3  9                    Now, I would like to come back to
 4     today's consultations.  Please allow me to introduce
 5     the CRTC staff who will be assisting us today: 
 6     Marguerite Vogel, who will be our hearing manager; and
 7     we have Sandra Caw and Peter Healey from our Western
 8     and Territories Regional Office.  Please feel free to
 9     call on them with any questions you might have about
10     the process today, or any other matter.
11  10                   So that you will all have the
12     opportunity to speak, we ask that please limit your
13     presentation to ten minutes.  As these consultations
14     are a forum designed especially for you, and we want to
15     listen to as many participants as possible, we will not
16     ask any questions, unless we need clarification.
17  11                   At the end of this session,
18     representatives from the local CBC stations will have a
19     chance to offer their views, as they are naturally very
20     interested by the issues we are discussing here, today.
21  12                   Before we start, I would ask Ms Vogel
22     to go over some of the housekeeping matters regarding
23     the conduct of this consultation, and say that we
24     expect we will take a break around 10:30 this morning.
25  13                   Thank you.


 1  14                   MS VOGEL:  Thank you, Madam Chair,
 2     and welcome.
 3  15                   Just for your information, there is
 4     some material on the back table.  If you take a look at
 5     the table, it has the media sign on it, there are
 6     comment sheets.  If you don't want to comment in person
 7     and haven't registered, we want you to feel free to
 8     take one of those comment sheets, fill in your comments
 9     and leave it with us before this consultation is over.
10  16                   I would also remind those of you who
11     are presenting to turn your microphone on prior to
12     beginning.  You will hit the white button and a red
13     light will come on and you will know that you are on
14     the air, so to speak.
15  17                   I believe those are all the comments
16     I have.  What we intend to do is call a number of
17     people to come and sit at the tables, so if I call your
18     name, please come to the table, and preferably in front
19     of a microphone so we will be able to hear you, and
20     then we will have each person give their presentation
21     in the order that I have called you.
22  18                   I believe that the following
23     participants are here at the moment.  Do we have Wendy
24     Holm?
25  19                   Thank you.


 1  20                   Mark Jaworski?
 2  21                   Thanks.
 3  22                   Roger Bose?
 4  23                   Not yet -- good morning.
 5  24                   Sabra Woodworth?
 6  25                   Good morning.
 7  26                   Bob Everton?
 8  27                   Stewart Parker?
 9  28                   Valerie Jerome?
10  29                   Excellent.
11  30                   Now I would ask Mr. Everton to make
12     his presentation first.  He has to leave by 9:30 at the
13     latest.
14  31                   So, Mr. Everton, if you would go
15     ahead whenever you are ready.
17  32                   MR. BOB EVERTON:  Thank you, it is
18     "Everton".
19  33                   Madam Chair, members of the public, I
20     am glad that the Commission still follows a tradition
21     that was established by Sir John Aird in the first
22     public Commission into broadcasting, that of public
23     consultation.  So much of what passes for public
24     consultation today seems to merely be window-dressing
25     -- in fact, conceals seals a hidden agenda that has


 1     already been predetermined.
 2  34                   I thank you very much for allowing me
 3     to go first.  I do have to leave rather quickly.
 4  35                   This Commission is considering the
 5     future of some very important issues for Canada, ones
 6     which are central, in my view, to the future of
 7     democracy in this country.  There is different forms of
 8     democracy.
 9  36                   Back during the time of classical
10     Greece, we had forms of direct democracy where people
11     were able to get together in person in order to debate
12     the different issues that were relevant to their lives.
13  37                   In the last few centuries, coming out
14     of Europe, the liberal democratic tradition has instead
15     given us a different form of democracy, a form of
16     democracy known as "representative democracy".  If you
17     wish to build a society that is based on
18     "representative democracy", then the major factor that
19     you have to be able to compensate for is to provide
20     some form of communication that allows people to debate
21     issues that are not physically capable of coming
22     together in the same space at the same time.
23  38                   What that calls for is the need for
24     forms of mediated communication; mediated communication
25     that would connect us all; mediated communication that


 1     would minimally provide access to us as citizens of
 2     this country to a very wide range of different views,
 3     on different social, political issues, some of which
 4     have been under debate for awhile, and many others
 5     which are just coming to the forefront.
 6  39                   To have a representative democracy
 7     means that there must be a form of mediated
 8     communication that would allow what has come to be
 9     referred to as "the development of a political, public
10     sphere".  This notion of the public sphere is very well
11     documented in terms of the role that it has played in
12     the evolution of liberal democratic traditions in
13     Europe by Jurgen Havermas -- as my time is very short,
14     I am just cryptically trying to throw a few things out
15     here.
16  40                   There are two very basic elements of
17     that public sphere and the two essential ones were that
18     people have the right to get together to meet in person
19     and to express themselves; and as well that there
20     exists a form of mediated communication that would
21     allow those kinds of debates and conversations from one
22     isolated location, be it coffee houses, be it pubs, be
23     it conference centres, be it public meetings, whatever
24     it may be, to allow that debate to bounce off and
25     intermingle and be communicated to those who aren't


 1     physically present.
 2  41                   Now, that role was a role that
 3     initially was fulfilled by newspapers; but later
 4     broadcasting has very much come to be understood as one
 5     of the forms in which that mediated communication can
 6     also take place.  From the days of the pioneer press in
 7     Canada, until early this century, the press in Canada
 8     did in fact fulfil that function quite reasonably, the
 9     function of a public sphere, but they no longer do.
10  42                   The newspaper industry has undergone
11     a very pronounced shift, with public relations
12     departments of large corporations, PR companies
13     themselves, advertising companies, very much today
14     filling much of the content of newspapers in this
15     country.  The commercial aspect of the media has come
16     to dominate over their other interests.
17  43                   Even though the newspapers have
18     always are and have always been privately owned, they
19     were also very much motivated by the desire, the drive
20     to fulfil a public function, that of disseminating a
21     range of points of view; and, collectively, all the
22     press in the previous century, and the beginning of
23     this one, was able collectively to supply us with the
24     very wide range of different views.  That,
25     unfortunately, is no longer the case.


 1  44                   We have the concentration of the
 2     ownership of media in this country that has come to a
 3     fairly extreme level, beginning when Thompson bought
 4     out Free Press in 1980, much more so when we find
 5     Conrad Black a couple of years ago buying controlling
 6     interest in Southam where now this very opinionated
 7     individual controls over half of all the newspapers,
 8     daily newspapers that are published in this country.
 9  45                   There are a lot of cities, many
10     cities in Canada in which it is not possible to buy a
11     daily newspaper that is a local or regional newspaper,
12     that there is no choice that is available in terms of
13     buying one from a different owner that shares a
14     different perspective that is put forward, at least not
15     in this city, which is Canada's third largest.
16  46                   Broadcasting, among the private
17     broadcasters we see that much the same process has come
18     about with respect to the concentration of ownership. 
19     We find that although it is nowhere near the level of
20     concentration yet of the newspapers, it is approaching
21     that, and it is headed very much in that direction. 
22     With the growth of CanWest and Baton Broadcasting in
23     the east, with the demise of WIC out here for ourselves
24     and their probable take over by Shaw and CanWest in the
25     imminent future, concentration, we can see the


 1     concentration of ownership in the private sector of
 2     broadcasting very much advancing at a quick rate.
 3  47                   But both broadcasting and the press
 4     long before Conrad Black had become little more than
 5     business enterprises aimed fundamentally at generating
 6     profit.  In broadcasting, it has been the public
 7     broadcaster which has played a vital role in nurturing
 8     and preserving the existence of a public sphere.
 9  48                   It is public broadcasting, and I
10     would argue principally public radio, largely because
11     it has been commercial free, that has offered a range
12     of opinion and a range of debate that is the minimum
13     necessary for any vital democracy, real political
14     debate, not that which is fabricated by spin doctors.
15  49                   Without a public sphere, there can be
16     no democracy, at least not as we have known it in the
17     western world over the last three centuries.  Without a
18     public sphere, a representative democracy simply
19     doesn't work.
20  50                   The federal government's proposed
21     Bill C-44, if passed, would change the CBC from its
22     current status of public broadcaster, operating at
23     arm's length as has been the tradition in this country,
24     and all countries where public broadcasters have
25     existed, into a state broadcaster.  The proposed change


 1     would mean that any or all members of the board of CBC,
 2     the board of directors, could be fired by the federal
 3     minister, at any time, without due cause, as is
 4     currently the law.  Today, to be dismissed, they would
 5     have to show due cause.  That element is about to be
 6     removed if this legislation goes through.
 7  51                   Now, whether through Bill C-44,
 8     through the process of privatization, or through a slow
 9     death by endless cuts, the destruction of the CBC, and
10     above all CBC radio, as a public broadcaster is the
11     destruction of the last remnant of a national public
12     sphere, the last national forum for democratic
13     expression.
14  52                   I would ask the Commission, have you,
15     ladies and gentlemen, of which I see there is only one
16     representative today that I wasn't expecting, have you
17     given up so entirely on democracy in this country? 
18     Does not your mandate as Commissioners, whether
19     explicitly or implicitly, include a responsibility
20     towards the preservation of democracy in this country? 
21     The CBC is not merely one more station on the local
22     dial.  The CBC is not merely window-dressing in our
23     society.  It is not a luxury.  The CBC is much more
24     than that.  To abandon the CBC is to abandon the public
25     sphere and the ability of creating a public sphere in


 1     this country.  To have no public sphere means to
 2     abandon one of the last pretences that we are living in
 3     a democracy.  It is still not too late to preserve some
 4     semblance of our public broadcasting system.
 5  53                   A little democracy, although badly
 6     gored through deep cuts, is better than none.
 7  54                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 8     Everton.
 9  55                   MS VOGEL:  I would now invite Wendy
10     Holm to make her presentation.
12  56                   MS WENDY HOLM:  Yes, good morning.
13  57                   I am a Canadian.  I am a mother.  I
14     am a British Columbian.  I am an agrologist and a
15     resource economist.  I am former President of the B.C.
16     Institute of Agrologists, former Director of the
17     Agricultural Institute of Canada.  I am a former
18     director of Vancouver City Savings Credit Union; a
19     former chair of the board of trustees of Ethical Funds
20     Inc.  I am a farm journalist and I am presently Second
21     Vice President of Mensa Canada.
22  58                   I would like to direct my comments to
23     the CRTC today to primarily the news and public affairs
24     portion of the CBC, of which I am most closely
25     familiar.


 1  59                   For the last 30 years, I have worked
 2     on public policy in Canada, much of it has been in a
 3     pro bono capacity.  I have raised the issues of water's
 4     inclusion in the free trade agreement.  I have raised
 5     issues of water's inclusion in the NAFTA; concerns with
 6     the Columbia Treaty as it affects Canada's farmers and
 7     British Columbia's farmers; issues right into the
 8     agricultural land reserve.  Six Mile Ranch; and the
 9     Multilateral Agreement on Investment.
10  60                   In all of these areas, I am very
11     closely aware of the response of the media to the
12     issues that are raised because, as a professional, I am
13     raising them in a pro bono capacity by and large, and
14     the expression of these ideas and concerns on a policy
15     level are very much dependent on somebody taking that
16     message and bringing it forward to the public.  I have
17     come off Bowen Island this morning, and very pleased to
18     be at these hearings today, to make the simple point
19     that the CBC, over and over and over and over and over
20     again, is the only -- one of the very few news and
21     public affairs organizations that consistently covers
22     the points that I am working on, which I feel as a
23     professional are extremely important to public policy
24     in Canada and to Canadians.
25  61                   When I look at my list of media


 1     contacts, I have references for CBC reporters across
 2     Canada, and I may have two or three references for
 3     other news media.
 4  62                   Without the CBC, I wonder who would
 5     cover these important stories and bring them forward
 6     with the balance and objectivity and journalistic
 7     integrity that the CBC carries them forward to the
 8     Canadian public.  I do not see other news organizations
 9     devoting anywhere close to the amount of attention to
10     these sorts of issues as the CBC.
11  63                   I think on a regional level, turning
12     my attention to a couple of the questions you also
13     asked, I think that the CBC has done very well despite
14     tremendously debilitating cuts, and those of us who
15     work with the CBC on a -- quite a close level, over
16     time, have seen the effects of this.  I know I was
17     speaking to producers in Toronto on CBC television who
18     were -- had been trying very hard, now that water is
19     raised again with the trade agreements, to do a special
20     on this and simply bemoaned the fact that they just
21     couldn't get the money to be able to do the kind of
22     programming that is needed on this issue.
23  64                   During the recent strike -- I am a
24     CBC listener who listens to CBC regardless and have
25     been listening through the strike, but occasionally


 1     have flipped to other news services in the evening for
 2     television news and have been appalled at the lack of
 3     objectivity in which stories are framed in other news
 4     organizations.
 5  65                   Concerns with respect to the way the
 6     search warrant matter was covered with the Premier of
 7     this province seemed to me to reflect more the sort of
 8     type of presentation that we get from the U.S. news
 9     stations and the "Top Copy" type of journalism where
10     you have people with television cameras lurking
11     outside.  I think in a 200-channel universe where
12     people are competing with news organizations like Top
13     Copy and CNN's News Are Us, I think that the CBC stands
14     as a very enlightened and fundamentally important
15     beacon in presenting news in a very balanced, objective
16     and ethical journalistic style.  I think that is
17     critical to Canadians.
18  66                   I think programs like "Cross Country
19     Checkup" -- as the gentleman before talked about the
20     ability of us as Canadians to appreciate who we are and
21     to appreciate Canadians in other parts of the country,
22     and I think programs like CBC's radio "Cross Country
23     Checkup" give a forum for the exchange of ideas for
24     which there is not necessarily a corporate sponsor.  I
25     think this is tremendously important.


 1  67                   I think CBC is a light in a very
 2     important window that Canadians call home.  I think CBC
 3     is the candle that illuminates the very corners of this
 4     country, and the very soul of Canadians.
 5  68                   As a result of very drastic budget
 6     cuts, I think that this Canadian will has been
 7     flickering, and I think it is absolutely critical that
 8     the budget for the CBC be restored and that we
 9     recognize as a people that if we lose this -- I guess
10     it is really a touchstone to our identity as Canadians. 
11     It has become that.  If we do not -- cannot restore the
12     CBC to its ability to fulfil that role, with the honour
13     that it has in the past, I think we have all lost a
14     great deal.
15  69                   Thank you.
16  70                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms Holm.
17  71                   I'll invite Mark Jaworski to make his
18     presentation, then.
20  72                   MR. MARK JAWORSKI:  Madam Chair, my
21     name is Mark Jaworski and I am a freelance writer and a
22     translator.
23  73                   My presentation is as much against
24     the CRTC as against the CBC, which I consider to be
25     partners in taxing Canadians to the wasteful exercise


 1     of empowering so-called cultural elite to tell us what
 2     is good for us.
 3  74                   I do not claim to be a viewer of CBC
 4     TV.  I watch two or three hours a year of it.  I do not
 5     even know anybody who does watch it.  I watch "Sunday
 6     Morning" and "60 Minutes" on CBS, some news on CTV and
 7     CNN, that is it, maybe three or four hours a week.
 8  75                   My seven-years old watches some
 9     children's programming and my wife sometimes watches
10     religious program or Oprah.
11  76                   I used to listen to Peter Gzowski,
12     maybe because of his Polish origin.  I used to listen
13     to "Cross Country Checkup", and CBC news, before it was
14     completely rigged into the slow active laxative, using
15     Conrad Black's expression, telling us, "Don't worry, be
16     happy.  Our government will take care of you.  You are
17     not smart enough to know what is good for you.  You
18     just pay taxes and shut up".
19  77                   Paraphrasing Pierre Elliott Trudeau's
20     statement, "The philosophy of the Liberal Party is very
21     simple:  Say anything, think anything, or better still
22     do not think at all, just put us in power because it is
23     we who can govern you best".
24  78                   In a spirit of faint hope that things
25     are not as bad as they seem, I voice my explanation why


 1     I deplore state control of our media.
 2  79                   First, I was raised in Poland during
 3     the Nazi occupation.  Members of my family died for
 4     mere possession of the radio, spent time in a
 5     concentration camps and were Christians, not Jews, who
 6     according to many programs on CBC had a monopoly on
 7     suffering during Second World War.
 8  80                   Two, my formative years were spent in
 9     Poland during Soviet occupation.  We did listen to CBC
10     Radio International news, which was factual, but never
11     too critical of the Soviet regime, much less than Radio
12     Free Europe, for example.  Some members of my family
13     were arrested and tortured for listening to those wrong
14     stations.
15  81                   In the '70s and '80s, I took part in
16     a public outcry when Canadian government tried to
17     forbid American FM stations (inaudible) and started
18     disabling satellite antenna ditches in the wrong
19     stations.
20  82                   Three, once in '80s, I hosted singing
21     group from Poland.  They were allowed to have guided
22     tour of the 200 million or so dollar CBC bunker in
23     Vancouver.  Some of the members of the group were TV
24     producers from Poland.  They were all very impressed. 
25     They were surprised that during the normal business


 1     hours nothing was happening in the numerous studios.
 2  83                   I was acting as an interpreter.  Our
 3     guide, one of the CBC employees, kept ignoring
 4     important question:  How many hours of regional
 5     productions you are doing here?  Finally, after
 6     discounting news and such Canadian programs like "Femme
 7     Bionique", she had to admit one or two hours a month,
 8     including one René Simard show, which I never watched
 9     in its entirety, but saw glimpses did not even reassure
10     me whether it was male or female singer.  We were all
11     very surprised, and Canadians present were embarrassed.
12  84                   During the CRTC hearings, once I
13     heard the CBC's facilities are available to the
14     community groups.  As a part of my community
15     involvement, I produce some cultural events in
16     Vancouver.  On several occasions, I asked CBC officials
17     in Vancouver to do recordings of the rare performances
18     of Polish folk dance assembly.  I was told they do not
19     have a studio time available during the day and cannot
20     allow our qualified volunteers to man the equipment
21     because they did not belong to the approved union.
22  85                   Six, from 1986 on I was on executive
23     of Black Ribbon Committee to remind Canadians about the
24     shameful pact of Hitler-Stalin of August 22nd, 1939,
25     which made invasion of Poland by Germany and Russia


 1     possible and started Second World War.  Consolidated
 2     efforts of Canadians who were refugees from many
 3     countries occupied for 50 years by the communist
 4     tyrants, raised enough money to pay for a tactful
 5     reminder on TV in the form of paid announcement.  CTV
 6     broadcasted it, but CBC refused under pressure from
 7     Soviet embassy.  How did they find out that such ads
 8     are placed?  Who runs this corporation, or this country
 9     for that matter?
10  86                   Recently, CBC refused to accept paid
11     announcements of Christian Power to change by campus
12     crusade for Christ in Canada.  That reminded me of
13     warning expressed, hopefully tongue-in-cheek by one of
14     the callers to CKST-AM 1040 Vancouver open line radio
15     talk show, that we should expect burning books and
16     Christians in the Vancouver Public Library built so
17     close to CBC building as an imitation of Roman
18     coliseum.
19  87                   I am for immediate closure of CBC TV
20     operation because of, first, high cost to the
21     taxpayers.  It is debatable how much it really costs. 
22     I had hard time finding that out.  CBC doesn't answer
23     telephones, maybe because of the strike.  Canadian
24     Heritage would only give me budgetary estimate of $903
25     million.  My MP provided me with a fax page of an


 1     estimated revenues of $472 million, which is money
 2     diverted from private broadcasters to illustrate the
 3     definition of capital punishment.
 4  88                   Capital punishment is when government
 5     is taxing you on your capital to go into competition
 6     with you and then taxes you even more to cover deficit
 7     of their ill-fated investment.
 8  89                   All costs related to CBC should be
 9     properly added and should include loss of tax revenues
10     to the municipalities for mausoleums, housing offices
11     and studios of CBC, diversion of capital which could
12     have been used for productive investment, cost of tied
13     selling of ten or more channels on cable television,
14     which are compulsory and seldom or never watched.  It
15     would probably be cheaper to provide every viewer in
16     British Columbia who wants to see French CBC
17     programming with a private dish that runs province-wide
18     blanket coverage.  It might be even cheaper to mail
19     them VCR tape of all original programming, including
20     "Femme Bionique".
21  90                   Chinese viewers in Canada willing to
22     pay for their channels.  I wonder how much French
23     viewers are willing to put dollars where their mouth
24     is.
25  91                   My estimate is that it costs each


 1     household in Canada more than $100 a year to keep CBC
 2     TV on life support apparatus.  Let's unplug it.
 3  92                   Two, CBC is not fulfilling dreams of
 4     its makers to keep Canada together and revitalize
 5     Canadian culture.  It does not, if nobody is watching
 6     it, and if it aggravates most people.  Once I heard
 7     that "Beachcombers" were most popular Canadian program
 8     and quickly realized fallacy of it.  At that time slot,
 9     most Canadians were watching "60 Minutes" on CBS and
10     there was nothing attractive on CTV, so understandably
11     of all Canadian programs this was a hit.
12  93                   I had been searching for definition
13     of Canadian culture and still don't know it.  If highly
14     paid by government grants artists and producers are it,
15     it does not reach me, or anybody I know.
16  94                   Three, elitism of serving small
17     number of rich snobs and opportunists, as well as
18     appearance of either serving the government of the
19     time, or biting its feeding hand is unbecoming of the
20     institution paid by the taxpayers to promote education
21     and well-being of large segment, if not a whole
22     population.  Crash courses of political correctness and
23     idealism could be found in specialty bookstores. 
24     Airways are too crowded with it any way.
25  95                   I hear have more patience for radio


 1     part of CBC, but I would move it to the premises
 2     similar to the private broadcasters, forbid them to
 3     accept advertising, and make them accessible to the
 4     people like most talk shows are.  Play some classical
 5     music and produce good shows.  I just might start
 6     listening to them again.  Now, they are not even on my
 7     preset stations memory buttons.
 8  96                   I hope that if not you God will
 9     listen to my prayer and end at least some suffering of
10     Canadian taxpayers who without participation support
11     institutions insulting their intelligence.  If you are
12     not sure, call for the referendum.  Would you rather
13     have a hundred dollars tax break rather than CBC
14     broadcasting into outer space?  Simply "yes" or "no". 
15     Oui ou non, excuse my French.  My answer is yes.  Give
16     me my hundred bucks now and forever.
17  97                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
18     Jaworski.
19  98                   MS VOGEL:  I would ask Roger Bose to
20     make his presentation now.
21  99                   Have I pronounced your name
22     correctly?
23  100                  MR. BOSE:  That is correct.
24  101                  MS VOGEL:  Thanks.


 1  102                  MR. BOSE:  Good morning.  I am a
 2     member of a pioneer Surrey family.  My grandfather
 3     settled in 1890 on the property which our family has
 4     continued to farm for over 100 years.
 5  103                  I am a farmer with interests in
 6     agriculture, as well as rural issues.
 7  104                  The strength of CBC lies in its
 8     diversity.  It is my intention to focus on certain
 9     aspects of programming.  My presentation will focus
10     mainly on agriculture and the agri-food industry.
11  105                  Canada is a vast country born of toil
12     and tears.  Our forefathers saw the importance in 1930
13     of uniting this country with the National Broadcasting
14     Corporation.  That form of unity is still very much
15     needed today.  We as Canadians want Canadian public
16     information.
17  106                  The feeling of one nation is as
18     important today, if not more so, than it was in those
19     early days.  As the railroad bound us together, east to
20     west, so the national radio network connected us
21     through communications to our northern boundaries.
22  107                  Canada is unique and diverse in
23     character.  Our communities need a binding force as
24     they enter the new millennium.
25  108                  We as Canadian citizens need a sense


 1     of belonging.  We need to know that there are programs
 2     available, both radio and television, free of foreign
 3     content.
 4  109                  Our programs need to have a
 5     distinctively Canadian flavour.  CBC should be
 6     considered as an essential service. "Cross Country
 7     Checkup" presents that unifying feeling.
 8  110                  As westerners, we need to know what
 9     is happening across our country.  Often, British
10     Columbians feel isolated.  What challenges and
11     opportunities lie in waiting for our citizens? The CBC,
12     as a national institution, should tie this country
13     together.
14  111                  The fishing crisis in the Maritimes
15     is as important to us in the west as our fishery,
16     wheat, potatoes, wheat, turkey and eggs is to the east. 
17     As we enter a new century, we must not lose sight of
18     the fact that this country has always and will depend
19     on agriculture to feed itself.
20  112                  Through the years, agriculture in
21     Canada has seen its ups and downs.  The cyclical nature
22     of the industry has seen many farms suffer hardship.
23  113                  We live in a communications age.  We
24     must learn to use these tools better.
25  114                  Radio is still, and I reiterate,


 1     still, a very vital part of that link.
 2  115                  Communications in both directions,
 3     along with widespread public support, can continue to
 4     unite this country.
 5  116                  The Internet presents an information
 6     bank never seen before.  In spite of modern day
 7     technology, the diversity of radio and television,
 8     however, is still a very important part of that
 9     information network.
10  117                  Many challenges have been foisted on
11     the agri-food industry by urban growth and encroachment
12     of the lands.  Everything from flood control, air
13     quality, ground water, pesticides and antibiotic use on
14     animals.  If there is a perceived problem, we will be
15     sure to hear about it on the evening news.  Good news
16     is seldom reported.
17  118                  Researchers are reporting
18     technological breakthroughs in studies on everything
19     from agriculture to biochemistry.  Much of this
20     reporting is in the form of news broadcasts.
21  119                  As the city spreads to all areas of
22     our province and country, up-to-date communication
23     about food production must be addressed.  Not only
24     agricultural but rural issues must be offered up in the
25     way that the consumer knows that milk does not come


 1     from a cardboard box or apples and zucchini from
 2     plastic bins at the supermarket.
 3  120                  The struggles of the agri-food
 4     industry will eventually filter down to the consumer. 
 5     Rural concerns affect all citizens of this vast
 6     country.  More specialized programming with some
 7     in-depth and grassroots reporting, would benefit both
 8     the consumer as well as the producer of agricultural
 9     products.
10  121                  Television has taken over this aspect
11     of reporting.  CBC radio is also a natural vehicle to
12     carry this type of programming.
13  122                  There is more to food than just
14     consumption.  Today's educated consumer may appreciate
15     the production process but does not always have the
16     background information to understand it.
17  123                  For those that really care about our
18     future generations, and the environment, there must be
19     dialogue.  The agricultural community in British
20     Columbia has learned to get along with its neighbours. 
21     Legislation has been put in place, and no doubt will be
22     broadened as more discussions take place, between not
23     only agricultural bodies but aquaculture agencies, as
24     well with broad-based community groups.
25  124                  In B.C., Bill 22, the new Farm


 1     Practices Protection Act, called the Right To Farm Act,
 2     has been introduced.  The act has come a long way into
 3     mutual understanding and implementation of strategic
 4     measures.  Broad-based town hall meetings will be held
 5     over the next several months and must be widely
 6     broadcast in order to be effective.  The purpose of
 7     these meetings is to inform and have dialogue with
 8     those parties affected.
 9  125                  Many residents have no knowledge of
10     such legislation, nor do they realize the importance of
11     processes taking place that affects the food chain for
12     many years to come.  Knowledge of the nature of our
13     present and future food supplies and how they will
14     affect consumers is crucial.
15  126                  A regularly scheduled radio program
16     dealing with agri-food issues would be a vehicle by
17     which we could keep the listener informed.
18  127                  Along with the quick fix of our
19     morning coffee comes the up-to-date report on the state
20     of the world affairs, the morning news.  This form of
21     communication widens our interest as well as knowledge
22     about world affairs.  It does not, however, go into
23     in-depth studies about some very crucial matters. 
24     Programs such as "This Morning" on national radio, or
25     "Almanac", are trying to address some of these very


 1     important issues.  "Canadian Gardener" on CBC TV is a
 2     very informative and interesting show.
 3  128                  News has come a long way since its
 4     inception, but does not appear to go into any in-depth
 5     studies about agriculture and aquaculture.
 6  129                  As Canadians, we deserve to be
 7     informed about our food supplies --
 8  130                  MS VOGEL:  Mr. Bose, you are over our
 9     the 10-minute limit, I wonder if you could wrap up?
10  131                  MR. BOSE:  Okay.  I will go to my
11     last page.
12  132                  MS VOGEL:  Thank you.
13  133                  MR. BOSE:  In-depth programming
14     dealing with agriculture, the agri-food industry and
15     fish farming should be enhanced.  In the past, radio
16     has offered this type of programming.  We have the
17     resources and the expertise to do it again in the
18     future.  Let us have the consideration for these very
19     important aspects of communication as we reach out to
20     the new millennium.
21  134                  The CBC cannot be all things to all
22     people.  There is no single solution to modern-day
23     communication needs.  Let the CBC have that mandate.
24  135                  Thank you.
25  136                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.


 1     Bose.
 2  137                  MS VOGEL:  I invite Sabra Woodworth
 3     to make her presentation now.
 5  138                  MS WOODWORTH:  Good morning.
 6  139                  I thank you for having this forum and
 7     I am here pretty much as a Canadian citizen.
 8  140                  I would like to address some
 9     significant parallels between our country and our
10     public broadcaster.  Canada's sense of identity has
11     never been strong at the best of times.  Indeed, we
12     have always struggled to have even a semblance of a
13     national identity.  What is Canadian?
14  141                  When I was growing up in the '60s and
15     heard of the dilemma of our Canadian identity, and as
16     well having Margaret Atwood articulate that a most
17     central theme of Canadian writing was survival, well,
18     it seemed then that we were on the threshold of finally
19     getting past the very first stages of just being; but
20     now, nearly four decades later, the beat goes on does
21     appear to be at the core of our very national
22     character.
23  142                  Canadians are a modest people.  More
24     likely than almost any other perhaps to underrate
25     themselves, sell themselves short, allow others to


 1     dominate, even sometimes shoot themselves in both feet.
 2  143                  Maybe in our hearts we sense our
 3     inevitable fate and accept that we are a thinly
 4     scattered population across a vast area, tenuous at the
 5     best of times, and that next to all those other forces
 6     in this world we are not a strong or unified force.  It
 7     is quite amazing, in fact, that we even manage to
 8     exist.
 9  144                  Perhaps we know we can expect to be
10     dominated by our giant neighbour.  Perhaps we have
11     accepted that we expect to be predominantly
12     foreign-owned and have our media overwhelmingly
13     foreign.  We have always struggled to know ourselves. 
14     So it seems we expect that, too, but it doesn't mean we
15     don't need to know ourselves.
16  145                  Do Canadians need a national public
17     broadcaster?  Rex Murphy's question on "Cross Country
18     Checkup" this past Sunday has been answered so many
19     times over the past six decades with a resounding "yes"
20     that it's impossible not to wonder why, still, somehow,
21     we haven't found a way to safeguard this most precious
22     of our cultural inheritances.
23  146                  Mark Raboy (ph) reports that Europe
24     has done much better than ourselves in identifying
25     "appropriately funded public service broadcasting as


 1     essential to the functioning of the media in a
 2     democratic society".
 3  147                  He further comments that we confuse
 4     any kind of criticism of the CBC or its management with
 5     our basic endorsement of the institution itself.  He
 6     says it is next to impossible to address the needs of
 7     change in the CBC if we do not first "as a society
 8     solemnly recognize a priori, the inviolability of the
 9     public service function of our cultural institutions".
10  148                  This, he says, Europe does with its
11     public broadcasting.  We, here in Canada, still rely on
12     the yearly parliamentary appropriation as if we didn't
13     believe our commitment to our public voice would
14     endure.
15  149                  This is part of the national
16     character of being Canadian.  One caller on Sunday said
17     it came down to the question of:  Do Canadians want to
18     survive as a country?
19  150                  What is the future of public
20     broadcasting in Canada?  I hope and pray that the
21     future of public broadcasting in Canada is what it has
22     been in the past.  It's national purpose has not
23     changed since its beginnings.  Why do we have it? 
24     Mostly, according to Knowlton Nash, in response to the
25     prospect of inevitable American dominance and control. 


 1     Indeed, we have it largely because of two cultural
 2     pioneers, Graham Spry an Allan Plaut, who saw the
 3     potential for radio, and to media, to forge a Canadian
 4     national identity.
 5  151                  While our identity then may have been
 6     precarious, it is no less so today.  Like an
 7     individual, one's identity, one's country's identity is
 8     in the throes of continuous change, and Canadians know
 9     themselves from coast to coast, from region to region,
10     hardly any better than they did in the '30s.  Back
11     then, according to Knowlton Nash, Canadians were
12     spending 80 per cent of their time glued to American
13     radio programs.  Much the same is true today, with
14     somewhere around 80 per cent of our movie theatres, our
15     television shows, our magazines, and somewhat less of
16     our radio programming still being predominantly
17     foreign.  We have to ask:  Does our media, do our
18     airwaves contribute to our sense of our national
19     identity? Certainly not, when we allow so much of what
20     we see and hear to be reflections of a culture beyond
21     our borders and not of ourselves.  How can we expect to
22     be a country if we don't know ourselves?  How do we
23     know ourselves if we have minimal reflections in our
24     media?  What is there to identify with?
25  152                  What is the future of public


 1     broadcasting?  The future of public broadcasting in
 2     Canada is to fulfil its mandate, to serve this country,
 3     locally, regionally, nationally, and internationally. 
 4     It is to be safeguarded by long-term stable financing. 
 5     It is to be free of its dependence on advertising
 6     revenue, for CBC TV to have the quality of CBC radio
 7     and thereby appreciated by a large and loyal audience. 
 8     So long as we compromise public broadcasting, it
 9     falsely goes by that name.
10  153                  We cannot criticize CBC TV as a
11     public broadcaster for failing to draw audiences when,
12     in fact, it is not what we represent it to be.  It is
13     commercial TV.  It must be devoted to public service
14     rather than to private profit.
15  154                  The future of public broadcasting in
16     Canada is to at least have its funding doubled to help
17     stop the erosion of our Canadian identity that is
18     taking place at every turn.
19  155                  When we think of public service, we
20     think of education, schools, universities, hospitals,
21     roads, parks.  It is true we are at a new era of only
22     the marketplace matters and the bandwagon of private
23     enterprise is attracting more people than ever before,
24     so many in fact that we risk forgetting our distinctive
25     Canadian public conscience that has truly made us what


 1     we are.
 2  156                  If we lose our social values, our
 3     community awareness, we lose ourselves.  We are our
 4     communities.  We must listen to each other.
 5  157                  The CBC is our community voice.  Any
 6     Canadian who has not yet come to appreciate how the CBC
 7     is there for them has a superlative discovery in store
 8     for them.
 9  158                  It is only a shame that every citizen
10     in this country does not know and celebrate how our
11     very best people, Canadians in all walks of life,
12     neuropsychologists, geologists, educators, politicians,
13     farmers, musicians, sports personalities, are
14     interviewed daily and can be heard on any number of the
15     shows across this country.  Where else can one so
16     easily turn for a discussion of ideas, for intelligent
17     dialogue, for debate, to hear diverse views?  Our
18     public, our community voice, we need it, like never
19     before.
20  159                  The future of public broadcasting,
21     when we think to address the problem of public
22     broadcasting, we misplace our concern.  The problem is
23     not with the public broadcaster; it is with the
24     political will, the political conviction that very
25     wrong-headedly fails to fulfil its own major public


 1     service role and give us what our finest cultural
 2     inheritance is.
 3  160                  If this corporation could have its
 4     own self-chosen leadership, there would be no problem. 
 5     All the solutions have been found for funding, for
 6     innovation, for increasing audiences, for diversifying. 
 7     If we have entered a new era of niche programming, very
 8     well, public broadcasting can expand to have a dozen
 9     niches on the dial.  Why only Radio One and Radio Two?
10  161                  MS VOGEL:  Ms Woodworth, we are past
11     the 10 minutes.  Could you wrap up, please?
12  162                  MS WOODWORTH:  Okay.  I would just
13     suggest that -- I would say a youth radio or an
14     international public broadcasting that -- public
15     broadcasting from all of the world, I think we could
16     easily support this idea of one point on the dial is
17     madness.  We need everybody to hear Canadians.
18  163                  We have to find another way of
19     choosing the management; another way for funding; and I
20     will sum up by saying CBC makes me proud to be a
21     Canadian.  I think it is our finest national
22     accomplishment.
23  164                  Thank you.
24  165                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
25     Woodworth.


 1  166                  I just want to remind people that
 2     there will be further opportunities to submit written
 3     comments in full.  If there is anything you feel you
 4     didn't have a chance to say today, or further thoughts
 5     you might have, certainly submit them and they will
 6     form part of the record and they will inform our
 7     decision on the renewals.
 8  167                  Thank you.
 9  168                  MS VOGEL:  I would invite Valerie
10     Jerome to present next.
12  169                  MS VALERIE JEROME:  Good morning,
13     Commissioner Grauer and Ms Vogel, ladies and gentlemen. 
14     My remarks are particular to CBC television.
15  170                  In 1951, my family moved to North
16     Vancouver from Winnipeg.  My father, a CN railway
17     porter was barred from working for our government
18     railway in any other -- in any capacity other than as a
19     porter.  Petitions in our neighbourhood attempted to
20     bar us from living in North Vancouver.  And, as a
21     seven-year old, I went across the street that September
22     for the first day of school only to be turned back in a
23     hail of stones that stung our legs and our heads and an
24     even greater hail of racial epithets that broke our
25     hearts.


 1  171                  Throughout my life I have been turned
 2     away because I am a member of a visible minority and,
 3     more often than not, just as in my first day at
 4     Ridgeway School, my exclusion has been sanctioned by
 5     our national institutions, be they CN Rail, our public
 6     schools, or the CBC.
 7  172                  In 1991, I was the designated Green
 8     Party spokesperson to speak in the debate being hosted
 9     by CBC television.  For a different reason, doors were
10     slammed, not because I was a visible minority but
11     because I represented a political minority, a political
12     minority that was fundamentally different from all
13     other parties in B.C.
14  173                  The debate featured the two largest
15     parties, the NDP and the Social Credit.  The B.C.
16     Liberal Party was able to exert pressure.  We had been
17     to court but they, the Liberals, were successful, even
18     though they sat at 3 per cent in the polls.
19  174                  CBC negotiated to include the
20     Liberals, but the Greens, despite being one of only
21     four parties fielding enough candidates to form a
22     majority government, having more than double all the
23     other small parties' candidates in that election
24     combined, we had to resort to going to court and to
25     standing outside the debate protesting at CBC.


 1  175                  Just as my first day at Ridgeway
 2     School, the government this time in the person of its
 3     public broadcaster, instead of its public education
 4     system, went so far as to contest our application to be
 5     in the debate and then seek punitive court costs
 6     against us in order to further punish us for having the
 7     audacity to demand nothing more than to be treated
 8     equally.
 9  176                  The CBC got off on a technicality,
10     calling it a leaders' debate, and one of the things
11     that -- and one of the things that is so unique about
12     Green Parties, making Green Parties unique all over the
13     world, is that Greens do not call their spokespersons
14     their leaders.
15  177                  In his reasons for judgment, Justice
16     Colver of the Supreme Court trusted the sincerity of
17     CBC's lawyers and suggested this problem could be
18     simply remedied by the party calling its spokesperson
19     their leader.
20  178                  Now, a lot has happened since 1991. 
21     There is a greater concentration of ownership of the
22     media than ever before in Canada and these owners are
23     exerting their authority more publicly and more
24     unabashedly than ever before, i.e., David Black, the
25     owner of the largest chain of community newspapers in


 1     B.C., whose recent decision to prohibit any of his
 2     papers' editors from expressing their views on a recent
 3     government initiative -- sorry, I have lost a page.
 4  179                  As time goes on, our media is focused
 5     more and more on parroting the views of this country's
 6     elites and stifling the opinions of its minorities. 
 7     Note the recent events of police violence against the
 8     anti-APEC protesters and the recent decision by the
 9     Supreme Court that Canada's Election Act is so
10     discriminatory against political parties that it
11     violates the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
12  180                  It is evident that our society's
13     elites feel freer in these times to run roughshod over
14     the rights of minorities, knowing that there is a less
15     vibrant press to question their actions.
16  181                  To my disgust, the CBC has forgotten
17     its mandate, which is to reflect all Canadians back to
18     themselves.
19  182                  Last November, CBC engaged in secret
20     negotiations with this province's four largest
21     political parties, which culminated in the organizing
22     of a televised debate.  The Green Party in 1993, based
23     on a CBC request, had changed its own internal rules so
24     as to elect a party leader.  We were, nonetheless,
25     pleased that the CBC dropped the requirement, changed


 1     its standards so that political parties could send any
 2     one of their choice, whether they were called the
 3     leader or not.  They did so in this case in order to
 4     accommodate former Premier Bill Vander Zalm, now
 5     president and interim spokesperson for the Reform Party
 6     of B.C.
 7  183                  There is no question that Mr. Vander
 8     Zalm's uniquely racist, fearmongering views on the B.C.
 9     government's Nisga'a treaty and on the Nisga'a people
10     themselves added spice to the debate.
11  184                  Yet, once again, the CBC unilaterally
12     excluded the Green Party from this debate.  Like the
13     B.C. Liberals in 1991, and the Reform Party in 1998,
14     the Green Party holds no seats in the legislature. 
15     Like the governing New Democrats in 1998, on the day of
16     the debate, the Greens were silting at 11 per cent in
17     the polls.  CBC executives, however, would not even
18     agree to meet with the Green Party regarding this
19     debate.  Instead, they sided once again with our
20     society's bullies and elites.  In fact, they went so
21     far as to come to my place of work in order to film me
22     for a shoddy piece of self-justifying journalism
23     dressed up as a news story, falsely suggesting that the
24     Green Party had but 2 per cent in the polls and held no
25     distinct views on the Nisga'a treaty.


 1  185                  In a time when the privately-owned
 2     media are suppressing minority views so blatantly, it
 3     is unconscionable that our public broadcaster in the
 4     pursuit of ratings is seeking to emulate the behaviour
 5     of which any broadcaster should be ashamed.
 6  186                  A public broadcaster should be just
 7     that, a broadcaster that represents the Canadian
 8     public, a public that is geographically, culturally,
 9     racially, and, yes, politically, diverse.
10  187                  With the rise in homelessness and
11     unemployment and a resurgence of racism, more and more
12     people feel that they are not full citizens in our
13     society.  They are part of an underclass that does not
14     have the right to food, to shelter, a right to be
15     treated with respect and dignity.  A true public
16     broadcaster would work for the public good, to see that
17     all people be included in our society's political
18     discourse, instead of being told by yet another set of
19     elites that they do not deserve to have their views
20     expressed, that they do not have the right to have
21     their stories told in the nation's media.
22  188                  There is a growing place and a
23     growing need for a public broadcaster in Canada, but
24     CBC in its present form is not a public broadcaster in
25     the true sense of the word.  They are merely a


 1     state-funded media organization engaging in a pathetic
 2     mimicry of this country's media elite.
 3  189                  Thank you.
 4  190                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 5  191                  MS VOGEL:  Would Stewart Parker make
 6     his presentation now, please?
 8  192                  MR. STUART PARKER:  My name is
 9     Stewart Parker.  I am the leader of the Green Party of
10     British Columbia.
11  193                  My comments today are -- I am pleased
12     that the CRTC has broadened the mandate of these
13     hearings, but my comments today are specifically
14     germane to the application for the renewal of CBUT's
15     broadcast licence in Vancouver.  However, I will touch
16     on some larger issues facing CBC and the CRTC.
17  194                  I came to this body for help last
18     November because CBC television violated a written
19     agreement that they had with me, dated April 1, 1996,
20     which stated that they had established a set of
21     criteria, a reasonable set of criteria for political
22     parties being able to participate in debates.
23  195                  These criteria were rationally
24     thought out and rationally negotiated by CBC in 1996. 
25     They had to do with a political party having the


 1     capacity to form a government at the end of an
 2     election.
 3  196                  However, when I went to the CRTC in
 4     November, because CBC had engaged in secret
 5     negotiations to overturn the agreement without even
 6     having the courtesy to consult with me or
 7     representatives of my party, the CRTC informed the
 8     Greens that, unfortunately, they could only intervene
 9     after a wrong had been done.  We had been done that
10     road before.
11  197                  We have contested broadcast licence
12     renewals before in the Okanagan and in Greater
13     Vancouver.  We have said this is the only forum where
14     we can express our profound concern about CBC's
15     behaviour.  Every time, the CRTC says, "You know, you
16     are absolutely right.  You are absolutely right.  You
17     have been mistreated.  CBC has violated the Broadcast
18     Act again but, oh dear, I am afraid we can't turn down
19     their application for a licence renewal.  And that is
20     the only form of reaction that we as the CRTC can
21     take".
22  198                  Clearly, the CRTC should have at its
23     disposal, and does in fact have at its disposal, tools
24     to require that its licensees behave in a particular
25     way and that if they fail consistently to comply with


 1     those terms that they can then have their broadcast
 2     licences revoked.
 3  199                  I think revoking a public
 4     broadcaster's broadcast licence is a dangerous thing to
 5     do in these times.  It is not my wish for the CBC to
 6     lose its broadcast licence.  Yet, here I am again
 7     expressing concern in the only forum I am able to.
 8  200                  We went to the CBC ombudsman as well. 
 9     However, he informed us that the CBC ombudsman cannot
10     act until a wrong has already been done.
11  201                  The same is true of the Chief
12     Electoral Officer of this province, who stated that
13     indeed the CBC did appear to be lying by consistently
14     stating that they were not holding a provincial
15     leaders' debate during a writ period, when according to
16     the Chief Electoral Officer it was a writ period and
17     the Elections Act fully applied.
18  202                  We live in a society that is based on
19     individual rights and freedoms; but they are rights and
20     freedoms that can only be exercised in our society's
21     commons.  In Williams Lake, B.C., right now, there is a
22     shopping mall that has an official "no Indians" policy. 
23     We have mobility rights.  We have the right to be free
24     from racial discrimination on our public streets but
25     our malls are not considered to be public or common


 1     areas.  Our public spaces are dwindling as more and
 2     more of our shopping takes place in malls.  Our public
 3     streets are disappearing as more and more of our
 4     province's population is living within the confines of
 5     gated communities.
 6  203                  The media, where we can exercise our
 7     freedom of speech, represents a smaller and smaller
 8     fraction of our society's media, as CBC audience share
 9     dwindles and the commons where our right to freedom of
10     speech applies becomes smaller all the time.
11  204                  The problem of shrinking commons is
12     one of the greatest threats our society faces.  There
13     are fewer and fewer places where we can meaningful
14     exercise our rights guaranteed in the Charter.
15  205                  And the media market that is so
16     lucrative, that is so popular is, of course, that of
17     suburban Canada, where there are fewer and fewer common
18     places where, in our land of gated communities and
19     strip malls, the term "taxpayer" has replaced the term
20     "citizen" "as though our relationship with the
21     government is not one of equals but as though we are
22     relating to the government on some kind of
23     fee-for-service basis.
24  206                  An important philosopher once said
25     freedom of the press is limited to those who own one. 


 1     Not many of us in Canada own a meaningfully large block
 2     of shares in our national dailies or our private
 3     broadcasters.  CBC is all we have got.  But our federal
 4     government's legislation, its programs, are destroying
 5     the small amount of commons that we have.  It is
 6     imperative not that we preserve a vibrant, independent,
 7     common media, because we don't have it.  It is
 8     imperative that we restore and create such a media.
 9  207                  We need a media more than ever before
10     where we can exercise our freedom of speech and where
11     we can engage in meaningful discourse.  Our society is
12     also built upon the right of confrontation.  It is the
13     basis of our justice system.
14  208                  We have decided that it is
15     unconstitutional, that it is wrong for an accused not
16     to be able to face the witnesses who are aligned
17     against him or her.  Our parliamentary tradition is
18     based on that right of confrontation, that only by the
19     confrontation of divergent views can we actually find
20     and seek the truth.  That is the basis of Question
21     Period.  That is why the Opposition faces the
22     government.  It is because, through this adversarial
23     process, this is how we come to an understanding of the
24     truth.  This is how we have meaningful discourse.
25  209                  In 1996, in the provincial election


 1     something very disturbing happened.  An exclusivity
 2     agreement was reached between BCTV and this province's
 3     five largest parties, not to just guarantee BCTV the
 4     right -- the opportunity to hold the only provincial
 5     leaders' debate, but prohibiting that debates'
 6     participants from being able to confront or be
 7     confronted by political parties not party to this
 8     agreement.  This is a horrifying precedent.
 9  210                  What it means is that our country's
10     elites can enter into contractual relationships with
11     other elites in order to stifle and end meaningful
12     political discourse in this country.
13  211                  It was therefore with much sadness
14     that I saw CBC, who had taken the moral high ground in
15     1996 and tried to develop a set of standards for
16     inclusion in the debates, that they had abandoned these
17     standards to a cowardly process of backroom
18     negotiations to which the public was not party and to
19     which other political parties were not party.  It is a
20     very disturbing phenomenon.  It is something that the
21     CRTC must address.  It is something that someone must
22     address.
23  212                  But the courts are afraid to deal
24     with this issue.  The CBC ombudsman has not even
25     responded to our complaint.  The CRTC states, "Our


 1     hands our tied.  It would be against the public
 2     interest to deny CBC a broadcast licence, therefore, we
 3     are not going to take a role in enforcing the law or in
 4     maintaining some semblance of standards for political
 5     discourse in this country".
 6  213                  It is my belief that Canada
 7     desperately needs a public broadcaster.  I am part of a
 8     growing political minority of young people who do not
 9     know where to look for news that reflects their
10     concerns and their issues; and CBC, they do not feel,
11     is a place that they can look, after the shameful
12     behaviour, which culminated in me being physically
13     assaulted by a CBC crew and dragged bodily out of the
14     debate when I attempted to protest what was taking
15     place.
16  214                  MS VOGEL:  Mr. Parker, we are passed
17     the 10 minutes.
18  215                  MR. STUART PARKER:  I think that is a
19     great time to conclude.
20  216                  I will just wrap up by saying I hope
21     that the CRTC can address this issue and if it feels
22     that within the confines of the Broadcast Act it
23     cannot, then I would suggest that it follow the
24     tradition set down by Thomas Berger's Commission on the
25     Northern Gas Pipeline and demand that the government


 1     expand its mandate so it can deal with these issues of
 2     profound concern to all of us.
 3  217                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 4     Parker.
 5  218                  I would invite Ellie O'Day to make
 6     her presentation next.
 8  219                  MS ELLIE O'DAY:  Thank you for this
 9     opportunity this morning.
10  220                  I am Executive Director of Pacific
11     Music Industry Association and also the chair of the
12     Vancouver Cultural Alliance.
13  221                  When I first immigrated to Canada in
14     1971, in some ways, the CBC became my mother in the way
15     that maybe an exchange student adopts a surrogate
16     mother.
17  222                  My new Canadian habits of humour, of
18     language, of assumptions, of politics, and even my
19     celebrities were faced in the '70s and '80s largely by
20     exposure to CBC radio and somewhat by CBC television. 
21     I also read a lot of periodicals, attended lectures and
22     performances, but I got a little bit of all of that
23     every day through the CBC.
24  223                  The CBC exposed these things.  They
25     made me think.  I had my preferences, but even the


 1     shows that didn't directly interest me had reason for
 2     being -- an integrity.
 3  224                  A country's public broadcaster
 4     becomes the living archive of its work.  It carries the
 5     pulse of its existence in discussion, in performance,
 6     critique, drama and comedy.  This cannot be driven by
 7     market forces which look for the lowest common
 8     denominator.
 9  225                  Although Canada does support its
10     public broadcaster better than some countries, it is
11     only a fourth of what Switzerland pays for their
12     broadcaster, or perhaps half of what the U.K. spends.
13  226                  The CBC is not about being most
14     popular, it is about being the most consequential with
15     resonance.  It is about honesty.  From the CBC, I
16     expect information and art presented with intelligence,
17     respect, with depth, insight, humour and sensitivity.
18  227                  Budget cuts have undone much of CBC's
19     finest programming.  Currently, CBC television does not
20     really have a regular showcase for new Canadian music
21     performers.  Variety television has been amongst the
22     victims of budget cuts.  The CBC should definitely be
23     investing in new Canadian drama and comedy, documentary
24     and animation, but little is left for music and other
25     performing arts.


 1  228                  This past fall, Pacific Music
 2     Industry Association co-produced the first West Coast
 3     Music Awards with CBC Television British Columbia as a
 4     regional broadcast.  This should also be seen across
 5     Canada.  But a few music specials a year are not enough
 6     to really show Canadians the wealth of the talent in
 7     this country.
 8  229                  And don't expect the specialty music
 9     stations to take up the slack.  Not every artist can
10     afford a $30,000 video, or fit neatly into the charts. 
11     Those Canadian songwriters and performers who find
12     their only broadcast exposure on CBC radio rarely would
13     be seen on commercial television networks or even
14     specialty stations.
15  230                  CBC should have the funding to build
16     a Canadian programming schedule.  It is important that
17     the many cultures that make up Canada are reflected in
18     its programming, and that the regions become part of
19     the production network in order to bring the view of
20     each region to the country as a whole.
21  231                  In the case of CBC television, many
22     argue that the emergence of dozens of new specialty
23     cable stations have replaced the need for a public
24     broadcaster.  Although more variety is certainly
25     available, most are grossly underfunded and


 1     underdeveloped, still dependent upon advertising and
 2     corporate dollar and inclination.
 3  232                  Private broadcasters are already
 4     accessing half their budgets from their licence
 5     mandated drama -- I am going to restate that -- I got
 6     that turned around.
 7  233                  Private broadcasters are already
 8     accessing half their budgets for their licence mandate,
 9     the drama, from public funding, from Telefilm, through
10     provincial programs, through tax credits, and even now
11     the possibility of through the CBC budget itself.
12  234                  The role of a public broadcaster is
13     to feed Canadian intelligence, showcasing Canadian
14     talent, as researchers, thinkers, writers, and
15     performers.
16  235                  Instead of slashing CBC budgets, we
17     should be contributing to our cultural health with the
18     commitment to programming that is a mirror to Canadian
19     culture.
20  236                  The building on Hamilton Street
21     should once again be a beehive of West Coast talent,
22     from producers and writers, to art directors and
23     editors, actors and musicians.
24  237                  Perhaps instead of a new Radio Three
25     we need to see a new commitment to regional production,


 1     to Canadian talent and to quality.  Instead of
 2     allocating part of CBC's budget to the Canadian
 3     Television Fund, let's see a reopening of news bureaus
 4     and budgets to commit to creation and production
 5     throughout Canada.
 6  238                  Thank you.
 7  239                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
 8     O'Day.
 9  240                  MS VOGEL:  Would Chris Richmond come
10     forward and make his presentation now, please.
11  241                  While Mr. Richmond is getting
12     settled, I would invite Annette LeBox to come to a
13     microphone.
14  242                  MS ANNETTE LeBOX:  Thank you.  Good
15     morning.  My name is Annette LeBox, I am from Maple
16     Ridge -- can you hear?
17  243                  MS VOGEL:  I am sorry, Ms LeBox, I
18     didn't mean for you to start your presentation now.  I
19     just meant to indicate that you could be up at a
20     microphone and right after Mr. Richmond.
21  244                  MS ANNETTE LeBOX:  Thank you.
22  245                  MS VOGEL:  Mr. Richmond, go ahead
23     when you are ready, please.
25  246                  MR. CHRIS RICHMOND:  Thanks so much


 1     for the CRTC being here.  We enjoy exercising our
 2     democratic rights.
 3  247                  I have a very short presentation.
 4  248                  My background, I am 65 years old,
 5     educated in B.C. and have lived and worked in many
 6     major cities across Canada.  Socially, I come from the
 7     so-called middle class and many of my colleagues are
 8     skilled tradespersons or professionals.
 9  249                  My career has included a number of
10     disciplines, but mostly in various aspects of
11     commercial banking.  I have also spent quite a bit of
12     time in voluntary work, generally associated with
13     minority groups in Canada.
14  250                  I have been lucky enough to enjoy
15     listening to, in an on-and-off mode, that is where I am
16     working and I am supposed to be working, but I like to
17     listen, and so it is intermediate listening to the CBC
18     radio, particularly the FM or Radio Two, over a number
19     of years starting in 1986, when I got my own office.
20  251                  I have shown this memorandum at least
21     to 10 of my colleagues and estimate that 40 per cent of
22     the people that I showed my memorandum to do not listen
23     to the CBC or any part of it and have received
24     enthusiastic support and encouragement to make this
25     presentation.


 1  252                  That is a bit of background.  Now, my
 2     major concern is that the public broadcasting function
 3     in Canada remain strong and free of political
 4     influence.  Perhaps the board of directors of the CBC
 5     should report to a standing committee of the House and
 6     not to a single ministry.  I support the notion that an
 7     increase in taxes may be necessary to ensure a workable
 8     budget for all functions of the broadcasting
 9     corporation.
10  253                  Because my experience with the CBC
11     lies in radio programming, my remarks concern this
12     function.
13  254                  I acknowledge that the television
14     side probably has many more viewers and is open to much
15     more public scrutiny.  I believe, however, that there
16     are common factors in developing a public policy or
17     vision which can encompass most of the CBC's
18     broadcasting function.
19  255                  In my opinion, the major role for the
20     CBC is to provide a communications service which
21     reflects, supports, and encourages the social, economic
22     and commercial cultures of Canada, because I believe
23     there are many forms of cultures.  Nobody wants to
24     speak about commercial because it is a dirty words, but
25     it exists, it has its own life and should be reflected


 1     I believe.
 2  256                  It should not be all things to all
 3     people.  It should provide a very healthy alternative
 4     to private, commercial broadcasting.  Most
 5     unfortunately, the percentage of Canadian society which
 6     listens to or watches the CBC is quite low, but there
 7     seems to be major support for the idea of public
 8     broadcasting, even from those who do not profess to
 9     listen or watch.  This may indicate a general feeling
10     of support for the idea that Canada will not be the
11     51st or 2nd or 3rd state.
12  257                  Here are my answers to the questions
13     posed by the CRTC.
14  258                  One, how well does the CBC fulfil its
15     role as the national public broadcaster?  I think it
16     does a good job within the confines of a shrinking
17     budget.  I understand that regional programming has
18     been generally cut back.  This may hurt individual
19     investigative reporting and regional research
20     activities in general.
21  259                  Looking to the future, should the CBC
22     fulfil its role differently?  Well, not really,
23     provided it follows the vision mentioned earlier of
24     supporting and encouraging the Canadian cultures.
25  260                  Number two, how well does the CBC


 1     serve on a regional as well as national level?  As
 2     stated before, budget cuts to regions has hampered this
 3     function but, nationally, I believe the CBC has done a
 4     good job in communicating Canadian social culture and
 5     values to all parts of the country, and a good example
 6     of this, of course, is "Cross Country Checkup", which
 7     has been mentioned a few times today.
 8  261                  Number three, should CBC provide
 9     different programs from commercial broadcasting?  Yes. 
10     Because it is the major communications service which is
11     free of the profit motive and can design programs with
12     the previously stated vision in mind.
13  262                  Number four, is there a special role
14     for the CBC?  And I think again, yes, as mentioned in
15     answer number three, with some expansion on that,
16     mainly the support for Canadian culture could be in the
17     form of funding for Canadian writers, musicians,
18     theatre companies, and assistance in production of
19     Canadian art work.  And that is as far as I got.
20  263                  Thank you very much.
21  264                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
22     much.
23  265                  I think we will take our morning
24     break and reconvene at 10 to 11.
25     Thanks.


 1     --- Short recess at 1035 / Suspension à 1035
 2     --- Upon resuming at 1055 / Reprise à 1055
 3  266                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Welcome back to our
 4     consultations.
 5  267                  Before calling the first presenter, I
 6     would just like to welcome some of the new people who
 7     weren't here for our remarks in the morning, and just
 8     mention that as we have a large volume of people who
 9     have asked to appear, we are limiting the remarks to 10
10     minutes.
11  268                  Yes, you can't hear me?
12  269                  NEW SPEAKER:  We can't hear you back
13     here.
14  270                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  I just
15     wanted to say that for those of you who missed the
16     opening remarks this morning, I just want to remind
17     everybody that we have a large number of people who
18     have asked to appear, so we are asking the presenters
19     to limit their remarks to 10 minutes.  I won't be
20     asking any questions of substance.  If we need to ask a
21     question of clarification, I will, but in order that we
22     can hear everybody we are just going to be here to
23     listen to you.
24  271                  On that note, Madam Secretary.
25  272                  MS VOGEL:  Thank you, Madam Chair.


 1  273                  I would invite Annette LeBox to make
 2     her presentation now.
 3  274                  Can you hear better at the back now?
 4  275                  NEW SPEAKER:  That is much better
 5     now, yes.
 7  276                  MS ANNETTE LeBOX:  Good morning.  My
 8     name is Annette LeBox and I am from Maple Ridge, B.C. 
 9     I am a teacher, a writer, and I am also a director of
10     an environmental group called the Pitt Polder
11     Preservation Society.  The mandate of our society is to
12     protect the wetlands in Pitt Meadows and the Maple
13     Ridge area.
14  277                  In November, I had the opportunity to
15     be interviewed by Erica Johnson of CBC television in a
16     cover story on the cranberry industry, called the
17     "Battle for the Bog".
18  278                  Several months before Erica Johnson
19     contacted me, a thousand acres of wetlands adjacent to
20     Blaney Bog in Maple Ridge was destroyed for
21     cranberries.  Burns Bog had also lost a thousand acres.
22  279                  In the past year, Ocean Spray, a U.S.
23     cooperative, was expanding its operations at an
24     unprecedented rate in the Lower Mainland.  Although
25     bogs and wetlands in the U.S. are given strict


 1     protection, there was and is no legislation in British
 2     Columbia, or in Canada for that matter.
 3  280                  Our only hope of stopping the
 4     expansion of this industry was to let the public know
 5     how this product was brought to the table, and the
 6     environmental costs of the product.
 7  281                  A coalition of environmental
 8     organizations held a press conference last November at
 9     the site of Blaney Bog.  There were many issues:  The
10     threat to tour Lower Mainland bogs, the loss of crane
11     habitat, the Sandhill cranes are now on the brink of
12     extirpation on the Lower Mainland, destruction of prime
13     salmon habitat, the scalping, ditching and draining of
14     thousands of acres to construct cranberry beds, and an
15     exposé of the cranberry industry in Wisconsin.
16  282                  A private broadcaster, television
17     broadcaster covered this story.  The news conference
18     was about an hour long.  But when we watched the
19     television news the following night, all we saw was a
20     60-second clip.  While we were grateful for any
21     coverage, this was very discouraging because we had
22     done our homework.  We had spent several months
23     researching this issue and we felt that only a very
24     small portion of the story was covered.
25  283                  Major newspapers covered the story in


 1     more detail, but even then the coverage was relatively
 2     superficial.  Then, one of our local newspapers wrote a
 3     nasty piece of work called "Chicken Little Bog Huggers
 4     Gear up for Christmas".  Luckily for us, Erica Johnson
 5     of Broadcast One read that editorial and contacted us
 6     for an interview.
 7  284                  I expected Erica and the cameraman to
 8     videotape for perhaps an hour, at the most two, but
 9     they stayed the whole day from early in the morning
10     till it was dark, taping parts of the interview in my
11     office where I write and my living room.  The cameraman
12     was a perfectionist.  This was not about just getting
13     the news out.  This was about art.  Changing lenses,
14     setting up equipment at different angles, photographing
15     still shots of cranes from my photograph album.
16  285                  Later that day, Al lugged his TV
17     camera a mile down the dike so he could videotape shots
18     of me running in the pouring rain along the dike
19     adjacent to the dug up cranberry field.  This is where
20     we did the interview.
21  286                  We spent a couple of hours on the
22     dike, cold, wet, as he took footage of me looking like
23     a drowned rat, but also took tremendous shots of herons
24     and eagles and ducks and disappearing muskrats, to give
25     viewers a sense of the abundance and beauty of the


 1     place.
 2  287                  I was exhausted when I got home that
 3     day and then I thought, Erica and Al do this every day. 
 4     The pace was frantic.
 5  288                  The following day they went to Burns
 6     Bog to interview Elisa Olson, and also the
 7     representative of the cranberry industry, and all the
 8     while the CBC crew was working in the background
 9     phoning Charlie Lusen of Wisconsin Wetlands, phoning TV
10     stations all over Wisconsin searching for footage on
11     the cranberry industry and then finding a clip of
12     Congressman Stewart Black talking about environmental
13     concerns.  I am not exactly sure how they did it, but
14     they sent the footage to Vancouver by satellite and
15     that became part of the documentary.
16  289                  The CBC crew also contacted the B.C.
17     minister of the environment and also Environment Canada
18     as part of their research.
19  290                  As we watched the cover story, it
20     unfolded like a drama.  The representative of the
21     cranberry growers stated that there had never been a
22     problem with pesticides in the water in B.C. and then
23     seconds later CBC described an Environment Canada study
24     which we were not aware of in which stickleback fish
25     were placed into a stream near a cranberry farm and


 1     within 24 hours 100 per cent of the fish were dead.  I
 2     was impressed, not only with the professionalism shown
 3     by CBC but also by the pursuit of excellence.
 4  291                  The "Battle for the Bog" was a human
 5     interest story, but it also educated the public.  It
 6     took two days to videotape.  The story aired in about
 7     10 to 12 minutes.
 8  292                  Being part of that story is the
 9     reason I am here.  It made me appreciate even more
10     CBC's dedication to good television.
11  293                  Did the story on the cranberry
12     industry make a difference?  You bet.  Ocean Spray
13     stated that they would not buy berries from either
14     Blaney or Burns Bog.  The provincial government
15     announced that they were working with the cranberry
16     growers to come up with some sort of legislation on the
17     industry.  The publicity generated by the story raised
18     the profile of Blaney Bog as well as Burns Bog.  The
19     publicity has also spurred the municipality and the
20     province to begin the steps necessary to purchase
21     Blaney Bog.
22  294                  In April, we had a meeting with the
23     Minister of the Environment.  I have used the video to
24     educate people about the issue and have received
25     numerous phone calls from organizations wanting more


 1     information on the industry.
 2  295                  Just recently, a member of a salmon
 3     enhancement group phoned me to request information. 
 4     Their guest speaker was a representative of the
 5     cranberry industry and they wanted information from the
 6     other side so they could ask informed questions.
 7  296                  The cranberry industry believes that
 8     we have done damage to them.  They call it damage; we
 9     call it public education.
10  297                  As for the future of CBC, I would
11     like to see CBC continue to do the kind of in-depth
12     reporting as they did on Cover Story.  Presently, the
13     CBC is grossly underfunded.  If they are to continue to
14     display this kind of excellence, CBC will need more
15     funding.  Without it, they will gradually slip to
16     one-minute sound bites that really have no lasting
17     effects on people.
18  298                  I hope that CBC can continue to do
19     the excellent investigative reporting that creates
20     change in society.  I hope it continues to give a sense
21     of who we are, not just the celebrities but people in
22     small communities who have a story to tell.
23  299                  CBC gave us a voice and for that we
24     are grateful.
25  300                  Bravo, CBC.  Thank you.


 1     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 2  301                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
 3     LeBox.
 4  302                  MS VOGEL:  I would invite Wendy
 5     Fletcher to make her presentation next, please.
 7  303                  MS WENDY FLETCHER:  Thank you.  Good
 8     morning.  Can you hear me?
 9  304                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I can hear you.  I
10     am not sure if they can hear you at the back.
11  305                  MS WENDY FLETCHER:  Is this one
12     working?  How's that?
13  306                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Much better.
14  307                  MS WENDY FLETCHER:  Okay, good.
15  308                  What does the CBC mean to me?  How's
16     that?  Better.
17  309                  There we go.
18  310                  What does the CBC mean to me?  Well,
19     Northrop Frye said that the simplest questions are not
20     only the hardest to answer but usually the most
21     important to ask, and this is definitely one such
22     question.
23  311                  It is harder to answer and more
24     important to ask in the light of recent cutbacks and
25     strikes.  At a recent Vancouver Institute lecture,


 1     Knowlton Nash speculated that 21 per cent of listener
 2     and viewership has been lost since the technicians went
 3     on strike in February because of cancelled, disrupted
 4     and repeat broadcasts.  The fear now is that when the
 5     editorial employees go on strike this Friday morning,
 6     it could be the ultimate demise of the corporation,
 7     which I think would be tragic.
 8  312                  For me, CBC is unequalled and crucial
 9     to our nationhood.
10  313                  Why is the CBC Canada's most
11     important cultural entity, as far as I am concerned? 
12     Well, for four main reasons I am going to suggest to
13     you now, but first I would like to make a brief caveat
14     that when I say CBC here I am referring primarily to
15     radio.  I have been a lifelong listener and practically
16     weaned on "As It Happens" and have lived without a TV
17     almost since the "Beachcombers" first ran.  So I am not
18     comfortable nor qualified to really comment on the
19     television network.
20  314                  As to my four ideas of why CBC is
21     important, they are four simple descriptive terms with
22     great implications that describe my CBC:  commercial
23     free, informative, educational and a social glue.
24  315                  Reason one, the fact that CBC is
25     commercial free sets it far above other options. 


 1     Without overt pressure from advertisers, the
 2     broadcasting corporation has the guts to tackle more
 3     controversial issues; and, without advertising, the
 4     networks are more listenable for us.  Commercial radio
 5     alternatives are dehumanizing with inane chatter and
 6     insulting reportage.
 7  316                  Reason number two, informative -- CBC
 8     is much more a global overview than any other stations
 9     and, most importantly, it is a Canadian perspective. 
10     As Peter Mansbridge has said, the CBC is the nation's
11     homegrown, highly-trained eyes and ears on the rest of
12     the world.  This is another reason why the bureau
13     closures in Mexico City, Paris and Cape Town are even
14     more unfortunate because we won't get the same sort of
15     perspective.
16  317                  In addition, CBC has more
17     comprehensive national, regional and local news than
18     other radio alternatives.
19  318                  Informative, yes.  Educational,
20     definitely.  I have always claimed that I have learnt
21     more from CBC than all my years of formal education. 
22     That CBC educates by sparking curiosity and fulfilling
23     it is as evident on all three networks.  CBC expands
24     cultural horizons while entertaining, and its
25     programming stimulates critical thought through


 1     in-depth reportage.  Programs like "Ideas", "The Arts
 2     Tonight" and "Quirks and Quarks", have broadened
 3     listeners like no commercial station could.
 4  319                  Reason number four, the last and
 5     perhaps most important and most difficult reason to
 6     justify in these globalizing times is the fact that CBC
 7     acts as our social glue.  It subtly holds our country
 8     together.  It gives Canadians a sense of identity in an
 9     era of global homogenization.
10  320                  While it could do it more, it speaks
11     to Canadians about themselves and their country.  In a
12     way, it creates national empathy.  Different people
13     from different backgrounds in different areas come to
14     understand each other better through CBC.  Coasts
15     connect through interviews, submission and letters sent
16     into the stations, "Cross Country Checkup" and "Radio
17     Sonic" collapse geographic distances for people.
18  321                  So, what does CBC mean to me?  A lot,
19     obviously, because I am up here speaking to you, and I
20     am usually terrified of speaking in public.
21  322                  The CBC, like so many things
22     Canadian, is brimming with underappreciated,
23     undervalued, unequalled potential.  I think there are
24     many intrinsic and extrinsic factors preventing it from
25     realizing this potential, but that would take more than


 1     my 10 minutes, so I can't go into it now.
 2  323                  It is more important to focus on the
 3     positive and what we need to do.  I think the challenge
 4     at this point is to convince other Canadians, a hostile
 5     federal government and the internal power structure of
 6     the corporation itself of the important role of the
 7     CBC.
 8  324                  The CBC is one element that sets us
 9     apart as an advanced, developed nation, and I want this
10     fact to be appreciated with foresight, not nostalgic
11     hindsight.
12  325                  Thanks for listening.
13     --- Applause / Applaudissements
14  326                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
15     much.
16  327                  MS VOGEL:  Would Mr. Kim Williams
17     make his presentation, now, please?
19  328                  MR. KIM WILLIAMS:  My name is Kim
20     Williams.  My comments today on the CBC are my own and
21     two friends who are avid listeners and viewers of both
22     radio and television.
23  329                  We are enthusiastic about the present
24     role and program offering of CBC radio, but have some
25     suggestions we feel address the CRTC's questions and


 1     will enhance CBC radio considerably.  For CBC
 2     television, we propose major changes that would
 3     transform it into a commercial-free public broadcasting
 4     television network.
 5  330                  Alan Mason, speaking about the
 6     privatization of the CBC last week, quoted from
 7     Herschell Hardon's work, "Closed Circuits, The Sell-out
 8     of Canadian Television", which found that countries
 9     with strong public broadcasting networks have a
10     considerably higher voter turnout during elections. 
11     This, he says, points to the importance and value these
12     networks have in keeping the country's citizens
13     informed on local, national and international issues.
14  331                  With both Radio One and Radio Two we
15     are delighted with the programming.  The "Ideas"
16     series, "Tapestry", "Writers and Company", "As It
17     Happens", "Cross Country Checkup", the "Vinyl Cafe",
18     "The House", and "Sound Advice", are some personal
19     favourites.
20  332                  On the whole, we feel that management
21     and producers have done well in the choice and quality
22     of their programming.  It is uniquely Canadian and,
23     where international events and personalities are
24     discussed or interviewed, the perspective Canadian.
25  333                  Without CBC radio, Canadians would


 1     have difficulty maintaining a national identity and a
 2     culture separate from that of the U.S.
 3  334                  Radio One in particular helps offset
 4     the massive impact of U.S. culture and is essential to
 5     the continuation of an uniquely Canadian character.
 6  335                  Radio Two also is a wonderful vehicle
 7     for musical enjoyment through such programs as "Choral
 8     Concert", "Sunday Afternoon at the Opera", "Sound
 9     Advice", and others.
10  336                  There is one major gap in CBC radio,
11     and it is the lack of programs for children. 
12     Children's programming is offered on CBC television but
13     there is little on radio.  Kids love story telling. 
14     Programs where the narrator reads from prominent modern
15     children's authors, from traditional fairy tales, and
16     from the classics would find a wide following.  What
17     about children's music programs or programs where
18     children can send in requests as adults do?  Children's
19     drama is another possibility which would draw young
20     listeners.  A CD currently available is "Classical
21     Kids" where scenes from the lives of composers are
22     dramatized.
23  337                  This kind of offering would be both
24     educational and entertaining.  Children who listen to
25     CBC today are beginning a lifelong habit as listeners


 1     and supporters of the CBC.
 2  338                  There are also gaps created by the
 3     demise of programs, such as "Book Time", "Collection",
 4     "Circus", and the "Max Ferguson Show".  We have
 5     political satire with "Air Farce" and "This Hour Has 22
 6     Minutes", but what we lack is an understated humour
 7     from such people as Max Ferguson an Alec McFee in
 8     "Vacuum Land".  Their successors, "Roots and Wings" and
 9     "Global Village", are good programs, but we still miss
10     that special humour and the wide interests of Max and
11     Alan.  We hope that it can be rediscovered or
12     reincarnated in some form.
13  339                  With CBC television, we feel there is
14     much room for improvement, even though there is much to
15     commend.  Often, what we see is a replication of what
16     is offered on U.S. channels, including endless
17     commercials, violence, sex, mindless trivial sit-coms
18     and action series.  There are exceptions for which CBC
19     television deserves every commendation -- "Black
20     Harbour", "DaVinci's Inquest" and "Nothing Too Good For
21     a Cowboy".
22  340                  The various family-centred programs,
23     "Emily of New Moon", "Road to Avonlea", "Wind At My
24     Back", are wonderful.
25  341                  Public affairs programs, such as


 1     "Fifth Estate", "Marketplace", "Venture", "Witness" and
 2     "Health Show" are all informative and well-researched.
 3  342                  Other programs such as the "Life and
 4     Time Series", "The Nature of Things", justice-centred
 5     docu-dramas and news programming such as "The
 6     National", "The Magazine" and CBC "Newsworld" deserve
 7     equal praise.  We would like to see the continuation of
 8     this kind of programming.
 9  343                  What we would also like to see is a
10     true commercial-free public television network with
11     even greater Canadian content and where publicly funded
12     programs such as those produced by TVO and the
13     Knowledge Network are available through the CBC.
14  344                  We would like to see the CBC move to
15     more educational programming, rather than focusing on
16     mindless entertainment.  We look for thoughtful,
17     well-researched programs that are both educational and
18     entertaining.
19  345                  One of the great advantages of the
20     CBC is that it can be received in most cities without
21     depending on a cable provider.  It is cheap and readily
22     available.  The publicly-funded programs of TV Ontario
23     and Knowledge Network should receive the wider
24     distribution available through the CBC rather than
25     require taxpayers to pay cable charges as well.


 1     Unfortunately, the television reception of many remote
 2     communities is only through cable.
 3  346                  As with the PBS in the U.S.,
 4     corporate sponsorship could still be obtained but
 5     without commercial breaks.
 6  347                  The CBC can provide an outlet for
 7     Canadian films that are often not as successful as they
 8     could be because the major movie houses are U.S. owned,
 9     show U.S. films and have large sums of money to
10     advertise American productions.  For example, the
11     wonderful CBC Telefilm Canada-India-British
12     co-production, "Such a Long Journey" is not receiving
13     the kind of attention it should for these reasons. 
14     Canadian films should be featured on CBC once they have
15     finished in movie houses.
16  348                  A couple of final comments relate to
17     the current strike at CBC and its excellent Web site. 
18     A caller on last Sunday's "Cross Country Checkup" was a
19     media expert from the University of Alberta who felt
20     that one of the reasons for the strike was the drastic
21     cutbacks at the CBC.  The CBC has tried too hard to be
22     all things to all people, to compete with commercial
23     television, at the same time presenting uniquely
24     Canadian programming.  They have sacrificed in the area
25     of international reporting when, in fact, one of their


 1     fortes should be news coverage, including international
 2     coverage relative to Canadians.
 3  349                  News and public affairs must be key
 4     to the CBC mandate.  Sports reporting can be part of
 5     that, especially for prestigious events such as the
 6     Olympic and Commonwealth Games, but "Hockey Night in
 7     Canada" could well be on commercial television.
 8  350                  The strike, while inevitable, is
 9     weakening the CBC and should be settled soon.
10  351                  The CBC Web site is greatly enhancing
11     the delivery of its programming and interaction with
12     its listeners and viewers, including play lists and
13     giving Canadians opportunity to express opinions and
14     respond to programming is worthwhile and should be
15     improved.  The site should provide full text of and
16     background details on stories currently being covered.
17  352                  In conclusion, we want an independent
18     CBC to be a public broadcaster that seeks to find the
19     truth without political or economic interference.  We
20     want reporters to seek more advice from independent
21     experts, such as university professors, rather than
22     focus on personal opinions and emotion.
23  353                  We want the CBC to keep a reasonable
24     perspective and not be sidetracked by sensational and
25     trivial issues.  The Clinton business is a case in


 1     point.
 2  354                  The CBC provides national
 3     personalities and programs.  Rex Murphy, Sheila Rogers,
 4     Eleanor Wachtel, Peter Mansbridge, Hanna Gartner, are
 5     personalities whose perspective and approach we admire.
 6  355                  We want to know what is going on
 7     across the country, politically, economically and
 8     culturally.  We want to know what other parts of the
 9     country look like, what the people there sound like and
10     what the issues are that concern them.  A country as
11     diverse and far flung as Canada needs the CBC.  It
12     provides programming that allows us to share our
13     special, regional and ethnic character with the country
14     as a whole.  This is a sharing which creates
15     understanding and empathy and unite us in our
16     diversity.
17  356                  The CBC knits Canada together.
18  357                  Thank you.
19     --- Applause / Applaudissements
20  358                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
21     much.
22  359                  MS VOGEL:  Could I ask David Catton
23     to come and make his presentation, please?
25  360                  MR. DAVID CATTON:  Thank you , Madam


 1     Chairman.
 2  361                  That the CBC has survived many crises
 3     during its past and recent history is no cause for
 4     complacency.  The CBC has survived only because there
 5     have been people even proud of the establishment of its
 6     predecessor the Canadian Broadcasting Commission, in
 7     1932 who believed in the importance of a national
 8     broadcasting service.  These people have fought, given
 9     their time, energy and resources throughout the history
10     of the CBC to bring into being and to maintain a system
11     dedicated to serving the information, entertainment and
12     cultural needs of all Canadians, regardless of
13     language, region or political persuasion.
14  362                  To survive and improve, the CBC has
15     always had to place its responsibility to Canadian
16     people ahead of the concerns of the advertiser and the
17     party politician.
18  363                  Private broadcasting has its friends,
19     too.  It provides much useful service that has good
20     potential to serve Canadians.  However, if we look at
21     the experience of the United States, Great Britain and
22     other countries, there seems to be little doubt that it
23     is primarily to the publicly-owned CBC that we must
24     continue to look for a broadcasting service which will
25     nourish a growing Canadian cultural identity.


 1  364                  To have a nation at all with our
 2     diversity of peoples has required Canadians to make
 3     imaginative and heroic efforts in communications as
 4     well as in transportation.  It is no exaggeration to
 5     say that survival of Canada depends on making use of
 6     modern communications technology to maintain the
 7     integrity and unity of the nation.
 8  365                  Our considerable dependents, both
 9     economic and cultural, and our powerful neighbour to
10     the south, has its virtues, but it also makes us
11     vulnerable to the core of our national personality for
12     Canadians who speak English, as well as for those who
13     are French speaking, CBC Radio Canada has the principal
14     instrument of communication available to provide the
15     means of cultural survival.  It can also serve as the
16     link that will enable British and French-speaking
17     Canadians to remain united.
18  366                  These are not my words.  They come
19     from an introduction to a book called, "Broadcasting
20     the Canadian Way," by Albert A. Shea, a communications
21     consultant and media researcher.  They are from 1963.
22  367                  Is it not fascinating that so many of
23     these comments still apply today, particularly the
24     emphasis on maintaining our cultural identity?  There
25     is no more effective way of reinforcing our core of


 1     common Canadian values than through broadcasting, the
 2     greatest tool of mass enlightenment ever devised. 
 3     Never before has reinforcement of our common values
 4     been more necessary.
 5  368                  Canada today faces its greatest
 6     crisis in history, the combination of national
 7     life-threatening arguments over our nationhood and the
 8     relentless American cultural penetration.
 9  369                  The fundamental question for all
10     Canadians whether or not we have the sheer guts and
11     willpower to survive as a separate and vital nation
12     confronting as we do the magnetic and seductive pull
13     from the south, and our own tempestuous French/English
14     strains.  As a country, we face today a century's
15     accumulation of these two principal challenges to
16     Canadian nationhood -- the agonizing dilemma of our
17     French/English solitudes and United States cultural
18     domination.
19  370                  A triple failure of policy, funding
20     and willpower to protect our culture has allowed and
21     invited the American electronic rape of that culture,
22     particularly in English Canada.  Just as the blame lies
23     with us, the solutions of our problems must come from
24     us.  It is up to us together to confront the problems,
25     find the solution, and get on with it.  We must put


 1     aside our propensity for self-abnegation and nitpicking
 2     in looking for some villain whom to blame for our
 3     national failure, for we are all in this together, and
 4     together we can find the way to achieve our common
 5     goals.
 6  371                  Now, those words, Madam Chairman,
 7     members of the Commission, are from 1970, from the
 8     introduction to Al Johnson's paper, "Touchstone for the
 9     CBC".  Can there be any doubt that they apply as well
10     today, perhaps even more than they did then?  When one
11     reads Massey, Fowler, Applebaum, Hébert and so on over
12     the years, you wonder if anyone has ever listened to
13     what needs to be done to protect our culture and, at
14     this late date, our national broadcasting system.
15  372                  There is not a major country in the
16     western world that does not have its own national
17     broadcasting system dedicated to protection of each
18     country's indigenous culture.  The possible exception
19     is the United States where the public broadcasting
20     system stands up valiantly to the pressures of the
21     private broadcasters and elements in government which
22     would like to kill it.
23  373                  Pledge nights are essential elements
24     of the United States public broadcasting system and
25     have also come to Canada.  Perhaps we should be


 1     considering them for the CBC.  Certainly, we adopted
 2     some of the worst elements of the U.S. system, the
 3     mindless and endless sit-coms, the erstwhile soap
 4     operas reminiscent of the worst elements of commercial
 5     radio, such as Big Sister and Oxydol's own Ma Perkins. 
 6     Similar drivel from U.S. television is all over the
 7     airways every day.  Also, the American passion for the
 8     seedy sordid side of life, A&E's series proclaiming,
 9     with one of the most stupid promotional phrases,
10     "Murder to Die For, "Murder by The Mile, "NYPD Blue",
11     "Homicide", "Life on the Streets", and so on and so on,
12     and our own Canadian entry, "DaVinci's Inquest".
13  374                  There is no high art here, only an
14     pandering to the lowest common denominator.  One could
15     hope, though, it may be idle fancy, that somehow we
16     could restore to Canadian television the type of high
17     level drama which Andrew Allan brought to radio.  Why
18     should we not enlist our brilliant world-recognized
19     award winning writers to prepare plays for television,
20     similar to what PBS has achieved with its "American
21     Playhouse"?
22  375                  The arguments will be put forward
23     that such plays would only appeal to a cultural elite. 
24     To that, I would close with one final quote.
25  376                  The CBC must recognize that it will


 1     never win the ratings game and that it will not
 2     consistently have a mass audience in the foreseeable
 3     future.  It's standard has to be a qualitative one.  It
 4     is not the number of people watching a program that
 5     matters but the importance of the program and the
 6     cultural situation of the people watching it.  National
 7     news bulletins are one of the unifying events of the
 8     Canadian day.
 9  377                  That, Madam Chairman, is from the
10     report of the committee of inquiry into the national
11     broadcasting service established by the Canadian Radio,
12     Television and Telecommunications Commission of March
13     14, 1977.
14  378                  Again, I would repeat my earlier
15     question:  With the millions of dollars and the
16     expenditure of endless time, energy and resources, that
17     have been the case for the CBC extending throughout its
18     history, I would ask again:  Is anybody listening?  Do
19     you not think it is about time?
20  379                  Thank you.
21     --- Applause / Applaudissements
22  380                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
23     Catton.
24  381                  MS VOGEL:  I want to make sure that
25     no one sitting in the room has registered to speak this


 1     morning.  I have a number of names that I would like to
 2     read out of those who had registered and said they were
 3     interested in presenting.  So, if any of you are out
 4     there, I would invite you to come to the table:  Marsha
 5     Drake; Chris Cartier; Joseph Cowan; Mike McNaughton;
 6  382                  Then, just before we break for lunch,
 7     I would like to invite the representatives of the CBC
 8     to come forward with their comments.
10  383                  MS SUSAN ENGLEBERT:  Thank you very
11     much.  My name is Susan Englebert.  I am the Regional
12     Director of Radio for British Columbia and, Madam
13     Chair, I want to thank you very much for allowing the
14     CBC to take part in the public consultations.  It is
15     wonderful for us to hear what people have to say.  I
16     think over this morning we have had quite a varied
17     group of people and opinions.
18  384                  We will be contacting people who have
19     talked here today to discuss with them what they have
20     said, if there are questions, if there is anything we
21     can help them with.  Obviously, we are listening to
22     people very carefully.  We are taking their comments
23     very seriously as we work towards the May hearing.  We
24     look forward to putting many of their thoughts and the
25     CBC's thoughts together for our presentation in May.


 1  385                  Nice, brief, short.  Thank you.
 2  386                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
 3     Englebert.
 4  387                  Since we don't have any more for this
 5     morning, we will adjourn until 1:00 o'clock.
 6  388                  Thank you very much.
 7     --- Recess at 1132 / Suspension à 1132
 8     --- Upon resuming at 1305 / Reprise à 1305
 9  389                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good afternoon,
10     ladies and gentlemen.  Since we have many new
11     presenters this afternoon, I will take the liberty of
12     rereading my opening remarks.
13  390                  Welcome to this public consultation
14     on the CBC.
15  391                  My name is Cindy Grauer and I am the
16     CRTC Commissioner for British Columbia and the Yukon.
17  392                  We are here to gather your views and
18     comments on CBC radio and television.  In your opinion,
19     how should the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation fulfil
20     its role in the coming years?
21  393                  The CBC is a national public service,
22     broadcasting in English as well as in French.  It plays
23     an important role in the Canadian broadcasting system. 
24     Today, many elements are constantly being added to the
25     broadcasting system, as new technologies multiply,


 1     converge, open up new horizons, and increasingly offer
 2     new services.  In this context, we want to know what
 3     are your needs and expectations as viewers and
 4     listeners of the CBC.
 5  394                  Given that, it is very important that
 6     the Commission hears what you have to say.  We must not
 7     lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public
 8     organization that serves Canadian citizens.  In this
 9     capacity, we are responsible to you.  This is why my
10     fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to come
11     and meet with you to discuss these issues and why we
12     are holding this series of regional consultations, from
13     one end of the country to the other, in eleven Canadian
14     cities, from March 9th to 18th.
15  395                  These consultations are designed to
16     give you a chance, on the eve of a new millennium, to
17     express your opinion on the CBC's role, the programming
18     it offers and the direction it should take at the
19     national, regional and local levels.
20  396                  Through these consultations we hope
21     to enter into an open dialogue with you and to hear
22     your concerns.  Your comments will form part of the
23     public record which will be added to the record of the
24     public hearing on the CBC that will begin in Hull, next
25     May 25th.


 1  397                  At this upcoming hearing, the
 2     Commission will examine the CBC's application for the
 3     renewal of its licences, including radio, television
 4     and its specialty services, Newsworld and Réseau de
 5     l'information.  You can also take part in that public
 6     hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 
 7     If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the
 8     specific licence renewals being examined when you file
 9     your comments.
10  398                  Now, I would like to come back to
11     today's consultations.  Please allow me to introduce
12     the CRTC staff who will be assisting us today: 
13     Marguerite Vogel, who will be our hearing manager; and
14     we have Sandra Caw and Peter Healey from our Western
15     and Territories Regional Office.  Please feel free to
16     call on them with any questions you might have about
17     the process today, or any other matter.
18  399                  So that you will all have the
19     opportunity to speak, we ask that please limit your
20     presentation to ten minutes.  As these consultations
21     are a forum designed especially for you, and we want to
22     listen to as many participants as possible, we will not
23     ask any questions, unless we need clarification.
24  400                  At the end of this session,
25     representatives from the local CBC stations will have a


 1     chance to offer their views, as they are naturally very
 2     interested by the issues we are discussing here, today.
 3  401                  MS VOGEL:  Thank you, Commissioner
 4     Grauer.
 5  402                  I will be calling each presenter in
 6     turn.  We do have a schedule of presenters.  If someone
 7     isn't here for the first time around, I will recall
 8     before the end of the afternoon.  So there is no such
 9     thing as being missed in this session.
10  403                  If you are here as an observer and
11     decide that you want to add some comments to the
12     proceeding, we have comment sheets on the table right
13     at the back of the room.  I would encourage you to get
14     one of the sheets, fill them in and then turn them into
15     me before you leave this afternoon.  Those comments
16     will become part of this proceeding as well as the oral
17     presentations.
18  404                  There are also other pieces of
19     documentation back there that may be of interest to
20     you.
21  405                  When you are about to make your
22     presentation, please turn on your microphone and that
23     means hitting the white button.  The red light will go
24     on and the red ring around the mike will go on.  We are
25     having a transcript taken of these proceedings and,


 1     should you want a copy of it, I encourage you to talk
 2     to our court reporter, who is the woman in the lovely
 3     blue suit to my right.  She will be able to tell you
 4     how to get a copy of the transcript.
 5  406                  If you have speaking notes that you
 6     want the Commission to have please feel free to give
 7     them to me at any time prior to your presentation.
 8  407                  Now, I believe Mr. Morley Sutter is
 9     here.
10  408                  Mr. Sutter, would you go ahead with
11     your presentation, when you are ready, please?
13  409                  MR. MORLEY SUTTER:  I thought I was
14     number three, but I am pleased to begin.
15  410                  Just an aside, we pronounce it
16     "Sutter", not "Sutter".
17  411                  MS VOGEL:  My apologies.
18  412                  MR. MORLEY SUTTER:  No, that is a
19     small point.
20  413                  Madam Grauer, fellow Commissioners
21     and ladies and gentlemen, I want to speak to three
22     points.  The first is that the CBC is needed.  There
23     are all kinds of rumours circulating about its
24     privatization.
25  414                  Secondly, what its responsibility, as


 1     I see it, and that involves primarily to provide
 2     reliable information and to support and to provide
 3     access to the arts.
 4  415                  Third, I have some questions, if I
 5     may, about management, politics and process.
 6  416                  Those, then, are the three points to
 7     which I wish to speak:  The need for the CBC, its
 8     responsibility and some questions.
 9  417                  We need a national
10     government-supported broadcast system free of
11     advertising.  I have been exposed to, listened to, the
12     public broadcasters in the U.K., in Sweden, Australia,
13     and the U.S., in each of which countries I have lived. 
14     One only needs to listen to the waste land that is
15     particularly radio but also television news in the U.S.
16     to realize what the consequences of what I would call
17     commercial television are.  I have listened to CNN most
18     recently in Cuba, and it is just as bad in Cuba as it
19     is here -- ten minute snippets of nothing.
20  418                  I would add that the CBC,
21     particularly radio with which I am most familiar, is
22     better than almost any of the other public
23     broadcasters, with the exception possibly of ABC, which
24     is very good, Australia Broadcasting Corporation.
25  419                  So, I think we desperately need a


 1     national, government-supported broadcast system, as I
 2     said, free of advertising.
 3  420                  The responsibility of the CBC, and I
 4     would confine my remarks mainly to radio because TV is
 5     so different in the sense of it being supported by
 6     advertising in part, and I admit that I love sports on
 7     TV, but other than that I find it apart from some
 8     documentaries and drama quite boring and nasty.
 9  421                  The essential element is that the CBC
10     must provide reliable, extensive information at local,
11     national and international levels.  This must be
12     distributed throughout Canada with equality, and this
13     is not the case at the moment.  I was asked to mention
14     by a person who lives in Prince George that they had to
15     raise $25,000 of their own money to get Radio Two, and
16     the same is true of Smithers, so they consider that
17     they are not getting equal value for money since they
18     pay the same taxes as every one else.
19  422                  The information which is provided can
20     and should contribute to national unity, not in the
21     form of a PR or apologia a for any one group, but
22     rather in terms of in-depth information and analysis
23     which is clearly described and indicated to be
24     analysis.
25  423                  I would hope that they would clearly


 1     distinguish ideas from information.  This is certainly
 2     done with the program "Ideas", which airs at
 3     approximately 9:00 o'clock, and is called "Ideas". 
 4     Ideas are not necessarily information.  And clearly
 5     editorials, editorial comment, should be distinguished
 6     from information.  I find the infomercials and the
 7     docu-dramas very disturbing in terms of techniques of
 8     propaganda.
 9  424                  The interviewers and those moderating
10     various discussion groups should pose genuine questions
11     rather than, as is sometimes the case, give equal
12     weight to both sides without asking the critical
13     questions and sometimes being so politically correct
14     that they are fluff.
15  425                  I have not mentioned the arts up to
16     now very much because I do think that information and
17     its reliability are the chief and most important
18     aspect.  The arts are important.  It is the role of the
19     CBC, or should be, to support the arts, to provide
20     access to the arts, and this comes back to the Prince
21     George story which I mentioned, who had to pay their
22     own extra money to be able to listen to quality
23     classical music.  I would urge the CBC to distribute
24     evenly what they already have in the way, particularly
25     of the arts, but also in terms of information before


 1     they develop new services.
 2  426                  I would like now to turn to the
 3     process because I think it is a little bit surrealistic
 4     to have these hearings when one aspect of the CBC
 5     across Canada, the technicians are on strike, and
 6     another group are poised to go out on Friday.  This is
 7     a strange circumstance.  I wonder how much the CBC is
 8     like the post office, with layers of management and
 9     top-down decisions, perhaps, contributing to the
10     ferment.
11  427                  Many of the problems about the
12     broadcast business, and particularly a
13     government-supported one, a tax-supported one, is: 
14     What is the end point?  I come from an education
15     background, or attempt to be in education, and I know
16     that the end point of things such as education, such as
17     broadcasting, are very loose.  It is easy to commodify
18     either of them.  It is easy to commercialize either of
19     them.  But this leads to something which is simply
20     popular and not necessarily useful or good or
21     long-lasting.
22  428                  So, the commodification of
23     broadcasting has hazards, just as the commodification
24     of education.
25  429                  A word about new technology, because


 1     clearly this is in the background.  The CBC has
 2     developed Web sites and the people who promote the
 3     personal computers, such as Gates, are eager to see
 4     television merge with PCs.  Just before coming here I
 5     was reading the latest "The Economist", and apparently
 6     this attempt in Hong Kong and Singapore has been an
 7     outrageous flop because people are not yet ready, and I
 8     don't quite understand why, to be able to select what
 9     they view on their computer.  Part of it is the
10     difficulty of broadband broadcasting which is beyond my
11     technical skill, technical knowledge.
12  430                  So, to repeat, -- oh, one other
13     point.
14  431                  I am concerned that the CBC may well
15     have gone the way of General Motors.  By that I mean
16     having layers and layers of management without the
17     people who do the work having much say in what is going
18     on, and all organizations are prone to this top-down
19     management disease.  It doesn't matter whether it is
20     government, General Motors, and I suspect, although I
21     don't know, CBC and the post office.
22  432                  So, management should be looked at in
23     that regard with the aim of leaving the management
24     primarily to those who do the job with, perhaps,
25     overall policy being discussed at different levels.


 1  433                  To sum up, then, we need the CBC.  We
 2     need reliable information.  Its responsibility is
 3     primarily to provide that reliable information, along
 4     with support and access to the arts across the nation
 5     in an even-handed manner.  This is the best way to
 6     assist in the unification of the nation, to assist in
 7     us being a nation rather than a group of isolated
 8     entities.
 9  434                  I do have questions about the
10     management and the political process, but I am not
11     knowledgeable enough to comment upon them.
12  435                  Thank you very much.
13  436                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
14     much, Mr. Sutter, for sharing your views with us. 
15     Thank you.
16  437                  Madam Secretary.
17  438                  MS VOGEL:  I would like to invite
18     Jennifer Sullivan to make her presentation now, please.
19  439                  MS JENNIFER SULLIVAN:  Where's the
20     staff?
21  440                  MS VOGEL:  I am sorry, which staff?
22  441                  MS JENNIFER SULLIVAN:  The CBC staff. 
23     You mentioned that they would say something at the end.
24  442                  MS VOGEL:  The very end.
25  443                  MS JENNIFER SULLIVAN:  The very end?


 1  444                  MS VOGEL:  At the end of this
 2     afternoon's session, yes.
 3  445                  MS JENNIFER SULLIVAN:  I see.  So
 4     they haven't arrived yet?
 5  446                  MS VOGEL:  Yes, they are here.
 7  447                  MS JENNIFER SULLIVAN:  Oh they are,
 8     they are lurking.
 9  448                  Okay.  I am from Vancouver.  I have
10     gone to university here, delivered mail here in
11     Burnaby, delivered mail in Prince Rupert and was a
12     first aid attendant in the construction of the deep sea
13     port.  I went to Laurentian in Sudbury.  I worked a
14     year in Ottawa.  I settled down finally in Montreal at
15     McGill in delivering mail.
16  449                  I was in a serious automobile
17     accident in Montreal, in coma for eight days, broke my
18     hip, so I couldn't deliver mail any more, and couldn't
19     remember what I had read so I couldn't finish my
20     masters thesis in Guy Vercheres la salle de Canadian
21     français, so it was all wiped out upstairs, nothing
22     there and it hasn't come back.  So I come back to the
23     West Coast and my mother and begin rehab and turn the
24     radio on.  It is 690, CBC, I was a smart cookie before
25     the accident.  So, here I am confused, I have no


 1     memory, I have got two languages that nobody can
 2     understand, I finally got what I wanted by sign
 3     language, you know, I want a smoke, that is perhaps a
 4     solution to our national unity.
 5  450                  But I turn CBC on and I was a letter
 6     carrier, a proud letter carrier, and the national
 7     anthem is on, and it is not played any more, somehow I
 8     guess that is saving money, I don't understand.  Every
 9     letter carrier in Canada would like to know why you
10     have stopped playing the national anthem.
11  451                  So I get "Early Edition", six to
12     nine, and that reintroduces me to my community and my
13     province.  It is all gone and that reintroduces me to
14     what is here and then Gzowski on Morningside, that
15     shows me the social and political fabric of this
16     country, and then the news, places, "This Country", on
17     the world map, and "Ideas", it re-educates me, tax is a
18     second certainty, in the blue box, and then as I am
19     just getting comfortable trying to sort out -- I have
20     got two languages, I am apparently a member of the
21     Parti Québécois, what is that, and the NDP, it is not a
22     conflict of interest, and then the Right Honourable
23     Brian Mulroney starts cutting CBC funds.  So there is
24     lay-offs.  There is more announcers than field
25     reporting.  There is more repeat broadcasts.


 1  452                  And then the Right Honourable Jean
 2     Chrétien replaces Brian Mulroney and far outstrips
 3     Brian Mulroney.
 4  453                  So it seems as though the federal
 5     Liberals have decided to solve our financial stability
 6     by cutting the costs of our national broadcasting.  And
 7     there is nothing I can do about it.
 8  454                  Now, I know that your mandate, the
 9     CRTC, has nothing to do with money.  I was just
10     wondering if it would be possible -- you see, when I
11     got back -- I was looking in.  I didn't know how
12     anything worked and through the CBC radio and
13     television, I watch "This Hour Has 22 Minutes" and
14     "ENG" and "Street Legal" and Mansbridge, that has given
15     me back Canada.  So it is as important as renovating
16     our Parliament Buildings.
17  455                  I know that you can't decide anything
18     about money, but it doesn't appear to me that there is
19     a great deal more to talk about.  If you refuse to put
20     gas in the car, there is no point in talking about its
21     performance, the damn thing doesn't go.  So I am just
22     wondering, all of your phone numbers are in Hull, you
23     live and work close to the big boys in Ottawa.  So I
24     was just wondering if you could maybe -- you know I
25     have written to Jean Chrétien and the Minister of


 1     Finance, and I got a brilliant idea when I was trying
 2     to figure out how income tax worked that I would make a
 3     gift, in kind, of my 130-millionth per cent of the CBC
 4     to the Minister of Finance.  Now, that is a gift in
 5     kind.  I would get a tax credit for it and that would
 6     impose a responsibility on his shoulders to maintain
 7     and make that cultural property available to the
 8     public.  That is a concrete responsibility that is
 9     missing in the Broadcasting Act, that is just as funds
10     become available.
11  456                  And then the headquarters of CBC in
12     Ottawa said that I didn't own the CBC, my tax dollars
13     pay the salary of what we got two or three employees
14     left, but I still don't own it, so I can't give it to
15     the Minister of Finance.
16  457                  Okay, so I thought I will make my
17     cheque out when I pay my taxes on April 31st to the
18     Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, and then Revenue
19     Canada says, I can't do that, they start charging me 9
20     per cent after April 30, so I can't do that.  I tried
21     -- I asked -- I tried to hire Brian Mulroney, the Right
22     Honourable Brian Mulroney, he is practising in
23     Montreal, just up the street, and then he says, he gets
24     his executive assistants to finally tell me that, no,
25     it would be a conflict of interest, Mr. Mulroney does


 1     corporate law now, comment ça?  Don't the corporations
 2     listen to radio or watch TV?
 3  458                  I asked Pat Carney if she and her
 4     colleagues in the Senate would donate their salary,
 5     which the majority of them don't need to buy groceries,
 6     to the CBC.  She said no.  So I am out of ideas.  I
 7     just wondered if you, if -- you know how they work over
 8     there.  You know how Crown corporations work, whoever
 9     owns it, do you have any suggestions on how me, a lowly
10     Canadian idiot could oblige the Minister of Finance to
11     put back the money into the CBC that was there before
12     the Tories?
13  459                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  No.
14  460                  MS JENNIFER SULLIVAN:  You don't have
15     any ideas?
16  461                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  No.
17  462                  MS JENNIFER SULLIVAN:  Or it is not
18     in your mandate to offer them?
19  463                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  All of the above.
20  464                  MS JENNIFER SULLIVAN:  None of my
21     ideas worked.  You see, there is only maybe what three
22     employees left, okay, we are going into the year 2000,
23     I got a computer, I got what the CRTC is and who is on
24     it on the Internet.  My family is being downsized and
25     when it is downsized enough and it is little enough


 1     nobody will notice when it stops.  So I guess there is
 2     only one thing left to really do and that is the
 3     Liberals are doing it.  So, the next election, anything
 4     but the Liberals.
 5  465                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
 6     Sullivan.  Your remarks all form part of the public
 7     record, so you have passed them on.
 8  466                  MS JENNIFER SULLIVAN:  Merci.
 9  467                  MS VOGEL:  I would invite Harold Funk
10     to make his presentation next, please.
11  468                  Is Mr. Funk in the room?
12  469                  No.  Then I would like to invite
13     Gordon -- I am sorry, are you Mr. Funk?  I am sorry. 
14     Please proceed whenever you are ready.
16  470                  MR. HAROLD FUNK:  Madam chair,
17     members of the panel, this is my first appearance at a
18     hearing of the CRTC.  I am here due to my increasing
19     concern about the budgetary cutbacks which the CBC has
20     been made to endure.
21  471                  This is not a fault of the CRTC but
22     is the fault of our elected representatives. 
23     Nonetheless, I must express my support for the CBC as a
24     public broadcaster and in support of the renewal of
25     their necessary licences to continue to operate.


 1  472                  My views on the merits of the CBC as
 2     a sort of glue holding this country together parallel
 3     very much with others such as Peter Gzowski and the
 4     Council of Canadians.  I see certain political parties'
 5     desires for greater provincial autonomy as a direct
 6     threat to Canada as a nation.  We absolutely need this
 7     broadcaster to produce programming and coverage arising
 8     from all areas of our country, so better to understand
 9     each other.
10  473                  To speak about the effects of
11     cutbacks would take too many pages.  Suffice it to say
12     that I and the members I represent greatly miss
13     programs such as "Media File", which is no longer, due
14     to cutbacks.  I believe that in the time of cutbacks
15     and restraints government went too far in their cost
16     cutting.  Health care funding is being restored.  The
17     health of Canada should also be considered and funding
18     restored so that we may have a healthier country.
19  474                  I listen to CBC One, CBC Two radio
20     all the time.  I only wish that everyone in Canada
21     could get both these services, that more people could
22     get Radio Canada and certainly that everyone gets CBC
23     TV or CBUTV.
24  475                  Whenever I am out of Vancouver, I
25     usually can get only CBC One and often at a compromised


 1     quality.
 2  476                  We need more newscasts and up-to-date
 3     weather broadcasting on weekends.  I realize people
 4     need time off on weekends but to essentially go from
 5     Friday to Monday morning with sketchy or no news and
 6     weather is inadequate.
 7  477                  I must also mention that I have
 8     listened to CBC for so long now that I just can't
 9     tolerate inane commercials on private radio.
10  478                  I am often tempted to ask my dentist
11     to change the radio station.  The stuff between
12     commercials isn't much better on private radio.
13  479                  If these hearings are necessary to
14     show that we need the CBC licence is renewed,
15     hopefully, these words will help you arrive at a
16     positive conclusion.
17  480                  I thank you very much for your time
18     in hearing me.  I should also add that I really do
19     appreciate the coordination because the scheduling to
20     come and appear, everything has been picture perfect,
21     so job well done by the staff, it needs pointing out.
22  481                  In closing, please consider that I
23     also speak for approximately 2,400 members, primarily
24     in newspapers and commercial print in British Columbia
25     through our local union, the CEP Local 2000.  We are


 1     not directly involved with the dispute that is
 2     currently going on and I don't know whether the
 3     Commission has any views in regards to the dispute, but
 4     clearly if the lack of funding that Parliament is
 5     providing has got a direct relationship to the dispute,
 6     and I suspect the ongoing viability of the public
 7     broadcaster, and so I think in a roundabout way the
 8     members of this panel are seized of the matter in a
 9     roundabout way.
10  482                  Thank you.
11  483                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
12     Funk, for taking the time to appear.
13  484                  MS VOGEL:  I would like to ask Mr.
14     Gordon Lenfesty to make his presentation now, please.
16  485                  MR. GORDON LENFESTY:  I have no claim
17     to fame like the gentleman before me.  I don't
18     represent a lot of people.  But I appreciate the
19     opportunity to express my viewpoint.
20  486                  First of all, I would like to ask the
21     chair to what value our expression of viewpoint is; is
22     it recorded?  Is it going to be carried to the other
23     members of the CRTC?  The young gentleman that was
24     peeking before Mr. Funk brought up a very, very
25     important point with regard to making contributions to


 1     the CBC.  Daryl Duke, in his article on -- in the
 2     Vancouver Sun of last Saturday was speaking about the
 3     -- referring to the need for financing and the fact
 4     that the CBC was becoming commercialized like the other
 5     radio stations with its advertising.
 6  487                  What I would like to suggest to the
 7     Commission is that if we are going to give the CBC the
 8     title of being public broadcasting in Canada, we should
 9     give it the same privileges that other countries give
10     their public broadcasting.  Half of our population in
11     the Vancouver -- well, perhaps not half, but a good
12     number of our population in Vancouver area subscribe to
13     the public broadcasting from across the line in the
14     U.S.
15  488                  The CBC needs more latitude in its
16     financial structure in order to get away from the
17     complete control of the political parties, whatever
18     they may be in power.  The CBC should be able to
19     conduct programming on television with respect to
20     getting contributions from leading organizations in the
21     community, just as the public broadcasting from across
22     the line in Washington does.  There are many law firms,
23     there are many corporations that would contribute
24     liberally if the CBC had the same standing from the
25     standpoint of being able to be tax deductible in their


 1     contributions.
 2  489                  Just going the commercial route for
 3     advertising, increased advertising, is going to come to
 4     an end somewhere because of the fact that there is only
 5     so much time can be allowed for it.
 6  490                  There is another area that I would
 7     like to speak to about the CBC, that is, and this Daryl
 8     Duke says is a result of our lack of funding.  We are
 9     in a position where we are getting so much in the way
10     of programming, and I am not speaking in any way to
11     take away from our fine people who are broadcasting. 
12     If we have -- all of us, I think, would agree that the
13     CBC has the best in the way of news broadcasters, maybe
14     we are not getting enough of it, we are not getting
15     enough local coverage, for sure, but the quality of the
16     people in general on the CBC are excellent and I would
17     agree with Daryl Duke in saying that we are -- we have
18     the finest people anywhere as far as our people are
19     concerned.
20  491                  The fact that he could also quote a
21     man by the name of Mr. Martin as saying it could almost
22     be called the "Toronto Broadcasting Corporation" and to
23     us -- to those of us who live in the west, to be
24     constantly subjected to the eastern people and then the
25     type of programs we get, such as "Road to Avonlea" on a


 1     continuous basis and seeing the same people coming on
 2     and on and their -- not programs but their
 3     presentation, I would guess you would call it, being
 4     repetitive and the same people and then being stretched
 5     out and overly stretched out so that you are forced, if
 6     you want to have a pleasant Sunday evening, you are
 7     forced to go to other stations to get entertainment for
 8     the evening.
 9  492                  There is another area that I believe
10     that the CBC should function in.  With this I will
11     close my remarks, and I am grateful for the privilege
12     of being able to make them.  This is the first time I
13     have ever done something like this, it is very nice, I
14     appreciate it, I think the whole set up has been very
15     nice.
16  493                  I like the comments of Mr. Funk and I
17     think that I would echo them that the whole situation
18     of today's sessions.  I think they have been very well
19     organized and I am complimentary to those who are
20     responsible for it.
21  494                  One of the things that we lack in
22     Canadian culture, so-called, which is difficult to find
23     and trace what is Canadian culture, we lack -- we just
24     lack -- have a tremendous lack of Canadian culture.  I
25     think that this lack could be reduced for one thing if


 1     we had a cross country encouragement to young people in
 2     theatrical groups.  There are so many young people out
 3     there today who are just crying for a venue for their
 4     talents, that the CBC could serve as -- and serve our
 5     Canadian culture in a tremendous way by doing a talent
 6     search or a training program.  With all of the money
 7     that we put into employment, there are many of these
 8     young people who would like to be used.  The trouble is
 9     they come up to a point where they do a local
10     presentation or something and their talent is shining
11     but they have no place else to go.  To get on the CBC,
12     they would have to find their way to Toronto
13     practically, as one of our young men from Burnaby did a
14     few years ago, find their way to Toronto and then get
15     acceptance, rather than the CBC coming to us with all
16     of our expensive facilities that we have here for the
17     CBC.  I would like to see the CBC do something in that
18     regard.
19  495                  I think that the CBC is held back
20     tremendously by not giving it the latitude, and I am
21     coming back to the financial area, of being able to
22     raise money on its own without having -- because of its
23     crying all the time that the government and the
24     Minister of Finance is not giving them the money. 
25     There is no party, political party in existence that,


 1     if they gave the criticisms that the CBC has given to
 2     our government that wouldn't try to curtail it.  I
 3     think the CBC is to be complimented for giving us such
 4     an honest presentation.  I think that the CBC has given
 5     tremendous coverage to all of the parties that are in
 6     the House of Commons.  I would compliment it.  I would
 7     not like to see our country without the CBC.  I think
 8     it plays a very, very valuable role and I endorse it
 9     wholeheartedly with some changes.
10  496                  Everything -- what is the old saying,
11     adage that says, there is nothing so permanent as
12     change?  The CBC does need some changes.  It also needs
13     the CRTC, that has given out licences for television
14     stations that we don't really need, as far as our local
15     scene is concerned, it needs to give the CBC more
16     latitude.  If the CRTC doesn't have that power, then it
17     should go to Parliament and get that power to be able
18     to give the CBC more latitude in its raising of finance
19     as well as in its programming.
20  497                  I thank you again for the privilege
21     of being here.  I don't know whether our efforts today
22     -- you know as nice as the environment is and
23     everything, I don't know whether our efforts count for
24     anything, but it is nice to be able to have your little
25     say-so any way.


 1  498                  Thank you very much.
 2  499                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 3     much, and, indeed, to answer the question you asked at
 4     the outset, all of the remarks form -- I am just saying
 5     further to your question earlier on, all of the remarks
 6     today form part of the public record and -- on the
 7     transcript for this proceeding so all of the colleagues
 8     on the panel will be briefed, certainly at least, on
 9     the context of these.  Thank you.
10  500                  MS VOGEL:  Would Stanley Fox make his
11     presentation now, please?
13  501                  MR. STANLEY FOX:  Thank you.  Madam
14     Grauer, Commissioners.  I am here as a representative
15     of the West Coast Media Society.  It is a group of
16     citizens based primarily in Victoria, British Columbia,
17     that has spent the last 12 years examining media and
18     making comments about the responsibility of media.
19  502                  The organization began because CBC
20     Victoria had no CBC representation even though it was
21     the capital of British Columbia.  In an effort to get
22     CBC presence in the form of a radio station, we began a
23     campaign more than a decade ago, and as some of you
24     know last year CBC opened a radio station in Victoria,
25     so we now have local service.


 1  503                  In that period of time, we had
 2     occasion to consult with hundreds and hundreds, perhaps
 3     thousands, of local citizens in that area and we have
 4     also had a great deal of discussion with the CBC in our
 5     efforts to get them to make this decision.  I think
 6     that gives us a special perspective on what people
 7     think about the CBC.  We have had enormous support for
 8     the CBC in Victoria.
 9  504                  When the station opened last summer,
10     there were actually thousands of people outside the
11     building in the form of a celebration, which astonished
12     the people around who came from the east to witness
13     this event, including the principal representatives of
14     the CBC.
15  505                  We have come to the conclusion over
16     the years that the CBC is one of the most important
17     cultural institutions that our Canadian society has
18     created.  It provides a unique service of great value
19     to Canadians that is not available from the private
20     broadcasters.  You have to think of television dramas
21     like the "Boys of St. Vincent", investigative reporting
22     like "Fifth Estate", music specials from the National
23     Arts Centre, unbiased world and local news, and one of
24     the best radio services in the world.
25  506                  The CBC has done wonders in the last


 1     two years in Canadianizing the TV schedule and received
 2     increased audience support for doing that.  It has also
 3     been able to launch a first-class Internet presence,
 4     but it has lost many valuable features.  The important
 5     thing is it cannot develop or even survive under the
 6     present conditions and policies of the government.  We
 7     will not have a CBC if things go on the way they are
 8     going now.
 9  507                  In order to look at that problem, we
10     would like to indulge us for a minute to go over the
11     main historic problems of the CBC because they are all
12     present.  In fact, I might say this is not my first
13     appearance before the CRTC on these matters.  I
14     appeared to discuss the excessive commercialization of
15     the CBC, lack of stable funding in 1974, and I haven't
16     had a satisfactory answer since.  So I hope that you
17     will be able to do something for us.  We have been
18     waiting a long time now.
19  508                  All right.  What are these essential
20     features of problems?  First is the hostility of the
21     private broadcasting community.  It is not public. 
22     They do not come out and say it out loud but in the
23     corporate boardrooms, in the planning of strategies
24     there is no question they would love it to disappear. 
25     That is a very, very powerful force in our society.


 1  509                  Then there is the political
 2     interference in the form of punitive budget cuts, and
 3     that includes the lack of stable adequate long-term
 4     financing.  We had the experience of a Liberal Party
 5     which promised us stable funding in the election so
 6     people voted for them, they reneged on that, and then
 7     we had a minister of culture who was supposed to
 8     support the CBC who even less than six months ago
 9     managed to hack another $50 million out of the budget.
10  510                  Because you can only vote for
11     parties, political parties in this country with
12     platforms, if they renege on their platform, what do
13     you do?  It is a very difficult situation.
14  511                  There is also the growing
15     commercialization of the TV schedule, and that is a
16     result of the lack of adequate financing.  I can't
17     believe there is anyone in the CBC management who would
18     like to be more commercial but they go on being more
19     commercial because it is the only possible route.
20  512                  Finally, well not finally, but one of
21     the others is the attitude of the CRTC.  What do I mean
22     by that?  Well, I mean that the CRTC has interpreted
23     its mandate quite narrowly over the years, and I will
24     give you an example of what I am talking about.
25  513                  In our campaign to get a radio


 1     station for Victoria, we went to the CBC and we talked
 2     to them first over two or three years.  They said it
 3     was impossible and then they thought and they worked
 4     and they worked very, very hard and they came back to
 5     us and they said, "We have a plan.  Even though we are
 6     having budget cuts, we know how we can open a radio
 7     station in Victoria.  This is how we are going to do
 8     it.  The establishment in Prince Rupert, British
 9     Columbia is excessively large.  It was made large
10     during World War II to service the many troops that
11     were up there.  It has extra studios, extra announcers,
12     extra staff.  If we reduce the staff in Prince Rupert
13     to the level that it ought to be given the standards of
14     the service, we could open small broadcasting stations
15     in Kelowna and Kamloops and Victoria.  All we have to
16     do is get permission from the CRTC to do that."
17  514                  So, we went before the CRTC with a
18     fine plan.  The CRTC said, "Great, wonderful," and then
19     this is the ringer, this is why I am talking about it,
20     "However, we have heard from the people in Prince
21     Rupert, the mayor and the city council, and we have
22     decided that you can go ahead but you can't reduce
23     Prince Rupert's size.  You can't take the money out of
24     Prince Rupert."
25  515                  That was all couched in long


 1     complicated sentences, but that was the essence of it. 
 2     So, the CBC said to us, "Well, this is the ruling, we
 3     can't possibly fund it.  We will fund Kamloops and
 4     Kelowna and you guys will have to wait".  So it was
 5     another five years before we got our radio station in
 6     Victoria as a direct result of a CRTC ruling.  So you
 7     can't say you are not involved in finances.
 8  516                  All right, internally, the CBC has
 9     problems.  We have to face that.  There is the
10     presumption that it must be all things to all
11     audiences.  This dilutes its resources in all areas. 
12     The fact that it doesn't have to be -- to run every
13     kind of program that is on commercial television, but
14     that has been the mandate, and Perrin Beatty, and God
15     bless him and goodbye, said the same thing very, very
16     recently.
17  517                  And then there is the excessive power
18     of the television sports and sales departments within
19     the CBC due to the need to generate commercial revenue. 
20     Loyal viewers of television, particularly, will realize
21     that every spring when the play-offs come, there goes
22     the news, there goes all the programs we usually look
23     at to help us see some game somewhere.  That is a
24     result of commercial pressures.  Then people complain,
25     and how can you expect a broadcaster to continue when


 1     there is no continuity of programming and the basic
 2     programs like the news are not available in the major
 3     news hour time?
 4  518                  And then there is finally the
 5     demoralization of the management due to severe budget
 6     cuts over the past five years.  Well, I say 25 years,
 7     but five years specifically.  How any human beings
 8     could function effectively and with energy in the face
 9     of this constant assault on the finances of the
10     organization, I don't know.
11  519                  All right, what do we want?  We want
12     a CBC that reflects the needs of Canadians, and what we
13     feel it needs to survive is financial security, stable
14     funding at a level that relieves it of commercial
15     pressures, that have such a bad effect on the
16     programming decisions, and we feel that such funding
17     should come from a legislated source, such as, ready
18     for it, dedicated tax -- more taxes -- and that is the
19     best way to do it.  Freedom from political pressures
20     and appointment to its management and board.
21  520                  Do we need to go into that?  The
22     actual bios of the CBC board of directors is available
23     on the Internet, read them and weep, because there is
24     nobody -- well, one or two might have just passed by a
25     television station during their early years, most of


 1     them are stock brokers, chartered accountants, party
 2     organizers, just read it, the whole story is right
 3     there.  I won't say -- that is one government board.
 4  521                  And then there has to be recognition
 5     from the CRTC, you are back on the line, that it is not
 6     just another broadcaster.  This has become clear over
 7     the years of reading CRTC decisions, meetings, minutes. 
 8     The fact of the matter is because the private industry
 9     has grown instead of having the CBC one private
10     network, two private networks, now at a meeting of
11     licence approval and so on, there is an army of these
12     people, Home and Garden Network, the Sports Network,
13     they are all there and they become -- the CBC becomes
14     one of this huge body, all of whom are private except
15     the CBC.  It is quite understandable that the CRTC
16     spends 90 per cent of its time dealing with other
17     people and the CBC can quite easily get -- its profile
18     can be dropped and lost and dropped down terribly.
19  522                  So, what can be done?  I think you
20     could restore the radio budget to the level where local
21     stations like CBC Victoria can do local programming
22     other than a morning show, make regional radio an
23     originating point for drama and light music as well as
24     news, as it used to be in the good old days, and
25     explore the possibilities -- now this is a scary one --


 1     of very limited corporate support along the lines of
 2     national public radio in the U.S.A.
 3  523                  For television, use the -- this again
 4     we realize that there is no point in going back to the
 5     old days, we can't really get more money out of the
 6     government.  That is not going to happen in our
 7     lifetime I don't think.  So new ways have to be found
 8     to make this work.  One, use the example of the
 9     successful "Newsworld" model for television.  Have a
10     national cable satellite and Internet service with
11     mandated -- this is important -- mandated local slots
12     to be filled under the control of regional CBC
13     production centres.  This is not new.  This was done in
14     the '60s.  What I am saying is if you had a national
15     service and if you had certain periods of time on the
16     air that were actually under the control of the
17     regional CBC people, who made the entire programming
18     decisions and could do anything they wanted in those
19     time periods, you would solve the problem of having a
20     local regional presence and yet not having to have all
21     the real estate that is currently existing in the local
22     areas.  I think it is 40 per cent of the CBC's budget
23     goes to maintaining the transmitters and studios.
24  524                  It is pretty appalling.  Produce with
25     rented facilities, if possible.  It is done in the film


 1     industry all the time.
 2  525                  So I am saying -- also you could
 3     slowly abandon some of the repeater satellite channels,
 4     repeaters as people move to satellite and cable.  Allow
 5     the CBC to enter into co-productions with any group or
 6     any nationality and take equity as needed.  Use the
 7     Channel Four model in the United Kingdom, but just let
 8     the CBC be free of the onerous Canadian content
 9     regulations that you supply to everybody else.  Take a
10     chance on it.
11  526                  Finally, the Internet and new media. 
12     A good start has been made on the Internet.  This must
13     continue and expand as the support for the other
14     services.
15  527                  And, finally, yes, I am finished,
16     treat the CBC as a needed social institution like a
17     great library or an educational institution or a
18     university so it doesn't have to be measured by
19     ratings.  We don't measure the University of British
20     Columbia by ratings.  Accept that the quality of the
21     experience of its audiences is as important as the
22     audience size.
23  528                  I hope that by 2074 we will have an
24     answer to this.
25  529                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Fox.


 1     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 2  530                  MS VOGEL:  I would ask Don Hamilton
 3     to do his presentation now, please.
 5  531                  MR. DON HAMILTON:  Thank you.  My
 6     comments are not hastily conceived.  They are based on
 7     concepts and knowledge formed over a lifetime career in
 8     broadcasting.  I enjoyed my time in the National Press
 9     Gallery, my term as President of the CAB, the BCAB,
10     Broadcast News, and as Vice President of the
11     InterAmerican Association of Broadcasters and Canada's
12     radio bureau.
13  532                  But no assignment was more
14     challenging than the almost seven years I spent on the
15     CBC board, its executive committee and chairing its $3
16     billion pension plan.  Under four presidents and two
17     chairmen, I had a very rare opportunity to study the
18     organization inside and out, warts and all.
19  533                  It's rooted in our cultural history,
20     physically spread over six time zones, underfunded,
21     poorly managed and somewhat out of date.  But that is
22     yesterday's history.  Let's talk about tomorrow.
23  534                  I submit that today, as we sit here,
24     the CBC as an organization is unmanageable.  The name
25     of the president and the make-up of the board, frankly,


 1     doesn't matter.  There is no one alive who could arrive
 2     in the morning and in the course of a management day be
 3     responsible to, or in some ways serve, the demands of
 4     the parliamentary committee, the minister and her
 5     ministry, the CRTC, the Broadcast Act, the Parliament
 6     of Canada, the Auditor General, the four unions, the
 7     board of directors, the Radio Act, the 9,000 employees
 8     spread over 10 provinces, the operation of 21
 9     television stations, 65 radio stations and 1,152
10     transmitters, the programming of five Canadian
11     television networks, two American television networks,
12     five Canadian networks and one international radio
13     network, supervise 62 international transmitters in 58
14     countries in seven foreign languages, deal with 30-odd
15     private affiliates and 270 community-owned
16     rebroadcasters, produce signals that reach from the
17     high Arctic to the Caribbean, from Labrador to
18     California -- do it all in two official and eight
19     native languages and before the day ends seek the
20     approval of 30 million Canadian shareholders.
21  535                  Let's use 21st century technology to
22     show us how it can be reshaped and properly managed. 
23     First of all, get rid of the corporation's "edifice"
24     complex, those dozens of CBC buildings and land that
25     time and technology have overtaken.  Let the private


 1     sector bid on them.  Take the billion dollars that
 2     creates and put it aside for programming.  Then do one
 3     of two things.
 4  536                  Option one, follow the American model
 5     in place for almost 80 years, first in radio and then
 6     in television, let the private sector own the buildings
 7     and the transmission systems, but require as conditions
 8     of national licence that they broadcast fixed hours of
 9     CBC network programming, plus major national special
10     events.  Call them affiliates.  Set up some new
11     networks to deliver new programs.  Here is how it could
12     work.
13  537                  Network one could be news,
14     information, public affairs and special events. 
15     Network two could be entertainment, drama and cultural
16     programming.  Network three is children's educational
17     and documentaries.  Decide how many hours a day each
18     would broadcast.
19  538                  Now, the private sector that bought
20     the real estate and the physical transmission plants
21     are obliged to broadcast these networks and, in
22     communities large enough, each network would appear on
23     a different privately owned station.  For instance, in
24     Vancouver, BCTV might broadcast network one.  CKVU
25     could broadcast network two, and VTV would broadcast


 1     network three.
 2  539                  In larger centres with more stations,
 3     networks could be broadcast at different times on
 4     different stations and the same national programs could
 5     be seen twice but by different audiences.
 6  540                  Each of the new CBC networks are 100
 7     per cent Canadian content, and they run totally
 8     commercial free.  The private sector station owners
 9     broadcast them free of charge.  If each station
10     broadcasts a CBC network say five hours a day, they
11     would own 19 additional local programming hours.  The
12     local newscasts and programs become their
13     responsibility.  They keep all the revenue they
14     generate.  They hire all the local staff.  And they pay
15     all the bills.
16  541                  The new CBC would not compete for
17     sports broadcast rights.  CBC staff numbers and costs
18     are radically reduced.  Program distribution is
19     guaranteed by CRTC regulation and paid for by the
20     private sector.
21  542                  For the first time in its history,
22     CBC is now totally devoted to program content.  The
23     success of the new networks and audience attraction is
24     in direct proportion to the quality of the new
25     programming.  Rather than ratings and commercials,


 1     programming excellence would now drive the CBC.
 2  543                  In this option, distribution is both
 3     over the air and through cable with 100 per cent of all
 4     Canadian households receiving the new networks.
 5  544                  Option two, found three new specialty
 6     channels, make a major policy decision on revenue that
 7     orders cable companies to distribute them free of
 8     charge to all cable homes.  Or charge so many cents a
 9     month on a cable bill with the entire revenue coming
10     back to the new CBC as viewer-based program funding. 
11     Dish receivers not cable equipped would pay a yearly
12     fee.
13  545                  The controversy here would not be the
14     delivery system but the revenue base.  In this scenario
15     the new networks would reach about 97 per cent of all
16     Canadian households.  With mandatory cable coverage a
17     given, a matrix on costs, homes reached, facilities
18     needed, staff required and funds necessary, could be
19     done quickly, projected simply, and presented easily to
20     Parliament.
21  546                  To go even further under either
22     scenario, meld the National Film Board and Telefilm
23     Canada into the new CBC.  This then brings the funding,
24     management and creative control of those Crown-owned
25     cultural icons under one rationalized roof,


 1     guaranteeing more savings and efficiency with all
 2     savings dollars going into programming.
 3  547                  CBC is watched from the sidelines as
 4     Canadian audiences have dissipated.  To compete, CBC
 5     now needs a bold new vision for a new century to serve
 6     a brand new purpose, with a brand new mandate.
 7  548                  While successive governments have
 8     slashed budgets through deflating dollars and
 9     decreasing commitments, the CBC has presented no new
10     thinking on the delivery of Canadian culture and
11     information to the nation.  This continuing silence is
12     in spite of the new worldwide delivery technology that
13     is exploding as we speak here today.
14  549                  The corporation's only response to
15     demanded belt tightening is to let old thinking reduce
16     budgets and eliminate jobs.  In my years in broadcast,
17     I have watched Royal Commissions, parliamentary
18     committees, special task forces, industry think-tanks,
19     tripartite associations, international treaties, union
20     negotiations and mandate reviews study the phenomena
21     that is the CBC.
22  550                  In the 63-year history of this
23     organization, not one has come up with any new thinking
24     on how to deliver a new programming product, not one in
25     63 years.


 1  551                  So, CBC continues to operate the way
 2     it does because we have always done it that way.  This
 3     stationary lateral thinking has produced lots of new
 4     critics but, unfortunately, not one new champion -- not
 5     one.
 6  552                  For over six decades they have
 7     continued to confuse activity with progress.  Now, the
 8     CBC must finally merge bold vision with harsh reality
 9     or face an accelerated extension.  Rather than
10     presenting a blueprint and critical path of how to
11     redistribute some of the corporation's assets to build
12     the finest new public broadcaster in the world, they
13     have retreated behind a vacuum of silence.  The key
14     problem of CBC funding is not lack of money but lack of
15     political will.  Governments have always taxed or
16     borrowed to support policies and projects they believe
17     in.  We saw that again in last month's federal budget. 
18     But the government's massive budget cuts at the
19     corporation are loud and eloquent statements announcing
20     that they no longer believe in the CBC.
21  553                  How come the CBC hasn't heard those
22     signals?  Every one else has.
23  554                  The consequence of the lack of
24     creative alternatives, bold new visions, a dedicated
25     commitment and technological understanding has resulted


 1     in successive governments almost totally eliminating
 2     the value of public broadcasting.  So, on one hand, as
 3     CBC funding erodes, the nation is served less and less
 4     from a stale CBC buffet on one hand, while on the other
 5     hand both Parliament and government receive continuing
 6     public criticism for funding this ever diminishing
 7     offering of old ideas and method.
 8  555                  Unless major elements of this
 9     destructive chemistry are changed, Canada's public
10     broadcasting system as we know it or knew it will
11     disappear and be greatly mourned after its avoidable
12     death.
13  556                  With my suggestions every one wins --
14     the public purse, the Canadian viewer and listener, the
15     private sector, and the citizens of Canada.
16  557                  The formula then shifts to the
17     programming excellence required to repatriate audiences
18     who have left, as they can now view new values, new
19     channels, new programming, in the fusion of new
20     cultural objectives.  Early in the new millennium
21     Canada has a brand new public broadcaster.
22  558                  Thank you.
23     --- Applause / Applaudissements
24  559                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
25     Hamilton.


 1  560                  MS VOGEL:  I invite Barb Brett to
 2     make her presentation next.  Just hit the white button
 3     on your mike, please.
 5  561                  MS BARB BRETT:  Thank you.  Good
 6     afternoon.  I first found CBC radio about 35 years ago
 7     when I moved from Vancouver to Dawson Creek.  At that
 8     time, news coverage of any type in Dawson Creek was
 9     sparse and of variable quality.  What started out then
10     as a search for news coverage has resulted in my
11     continued reliance on CBC, now called Radio One, not
12     only for news but information and entertainment as
13     well.
14  562                  I represent no group here today, just
15     me and my family.  I want to begin by telling you why I
16     love the CBC, and there is five main reasons.
17  563                  First, quality.  The quality far
18     exceeds anything available anywhere else.  Our family
19     appreciates that there is a respect for the listener's
20     ability to think and to follow a program intelligently
21     and imaginatively.  The news and information programs
22     are current.  They go directly to a reliable source of
23     information and we hear the tone and attitude of the
24     news maker as the program hosts ask challenging
25     questions that we ourselves would want to ask.  This


 1     must require a great deal of research and effort and I
 2     have a great deal of respect for the skills and talents
 3     of the professionals in CBC broadcasting.
 4  564                  When some disaster strikes, such as a
 5     power outage and we are forced to listen to private
 6     broadcasting for a short spell, we find the one theme
 7     focus, the sensational news and accident reports and
 8     the rapid fire advertisements to be in stark contrast
 9     to the wide ranging diversity, thoughtful perspectives,
10     personal interviews and respectful attitudes of the
11     CBC.
12  565                  Second, variety.  We love the variety
13     of programming.  At some point every week, there will
14     be science, drama, humour, health, arts reports,
15     mystery, sports, et cetera, et cetera, and we listen to
16     just about all of it.  Perhaps hoping to be told just
17     how far from Reading a guest is located on "As It
18     Happens," keeping the kids quiet so we can hear all of
19     "Finkelman's 45's", catching the latest peculiarity on
20     Arthur Black, laughing out loud over Lorne Elliott and
21     hanging on to every word and pause in Stuart McLean's
22     latest offering.
23  566                  We anxiously await Catherine
24     Gretsinger every afternoon to hear the latest in B.C.
25     happenings.  We look forward to Lisa Cordoso every


 1     morning for islands news and appreciate Mark Forsythe's
 2     pleasant manner with all his guests on "Radio Almanac".
 3  567                  We also appreciate the availability
 4     of the French programming on radio and TV.  We
 5     ourselves are not French speaking, but one of our
 6     children recently graduated from the French immersion
 7     program and another is well on his way in the program. 
 8     They both watch the French channel.  The French
 9     programming across Canada reinforces the richness of
10     our cultural heritage.  I think one should be able to
11     go anywhere in Canada and be able to listen to or watch
12     a program in either one of our two languages.  It is
13     important that the CBC continue this service.
14  568                  The recent monotony during the past
15     few weeks of the technicians' strike has made it
16     painfully obvious that one central program or endless
17     repeats are totally inadequate to achieving the concept
18     of public service radio.  If CBC isn't soon able to
19     resolve this labour dispute, listeners like myself who
20     value the quality and variety will soon be driven away. 
21     One wonders if CBC management and the federal
22     government realize how serious the situation is.  Let
23     us hope these difficulties can soon be resolved.
24  569                  The third reason I love CBC is that
25     CBC celebrates Canada and Canadians.  Canadians tend to


 1     be a shy lot but, thanks in part to the CBC two former
 2     Dawson Creek boys, Ben Hepner and Roy Forbes are
 3     renowned nationally and internationally.
 4  570                  I doubt I would ever have heard of
 5     Connie Calder if it weren't for the CBC, and now I
 6     think her Wood River is just about the prettiest piece
 7     of music I have ever heard.
 8  571                  Where else would I have ever heard
 9     about the Governor General's Gold Medal and heard
10     Stephanie Bolster being interviewed and reading alive
11     from her Alice poems?
12  572                  The more that Canadians are promoted,
13     the more their talents will be recognized and the more
14     opportunity there will be for growth and employment in
15     the arts and entertainment industries.
16  573                  It makes us proud and happy to hear
17     about our successful athletes, too, whether at the
18     Canada Winter Games in Cornerbrook, the Special
19     Olympics or the international Olympics, we learn of
20     their efforts and accomplishments thanks to the CBC.
21  574                  My husband watches TV more than I do
22     but he says the same thing there.  The programs that
23     are the most valuable are the Canadian ones, "Venture",
24     "Marketplace", "Air Farce", "On the Road Again",
25     "Science", "National", et cetera.  These programs are


 1     specific to Canada and celebrate Canadians.
 2  575                  And we need to know more about Canada
 3     and Canadians or we will begin to think that only other
 4     countries, other more flamboyant countries are the only
 5     ones with talented and gifted individuals.
 6  576                  Fourthly, the CBC links Canadians,
 7     not just through the phone in or open line programs
 8     like "Cross Country Checkup", but through the focus on
 9     the ordinary person or the ordinary events in life are
10     we linked in common with every other person in the
11     country.  A family favourite in our house now is
12     "Zing", made from a tomato relish recipe that
13     originated with a Calgary housewife who Peter Gzowski
14     interviewed a few years back when he tried to find out
15     what everybody did with all the tomatoes they grew
16     every year.
17  577                  I myself feel a real bonding with all
18     those people who offered recipes, and there must be
19     hundreds of others like me.  We do have a lot in common
20     with each other.  The way we have to cope with the
21     weather, struggle to grow a garden, keep in touch with
22     family members scattered across the country and these
23     common threads are made evident to us through the
24     varied theme and focuses of both the regional and
25     national programs.


 1  578                  Fifth, CBC helps define Canada and
 2     Canadians.  We learn and understand what is going on in
 3     various regions, sometimes a special fund raising event
 4     is highlighted, sometimes a problem in a municipality,
 5     sometimes a weather emergency, problems in education,
 6     health care, Canadians in other countries.  We learn
 7     not only about the problems, but about the ingenuity
 8     and generosity of Canadians in their attempts at
 9     solving these problems.
10  579                  We find there are many similarities
11     and we can all benefit from learning about the efforts
12     of others in similar situations.
13  580                  While the CBC is in the process of
14     trying to find, preserve, promote Canadian culture, we
15     feel that the CBC is part of our culture.  Our children
16     all have the shared experiences of kids TV programs,
17     "Mr. Dress-up", "Friendly Giant".  When any one of us
18     hears the word "science" we can't help but think of
19     David Suzuki or Jay Ingram or Bob McDonald and the
20     fascinating facts we have come to expect to have
21     presented to us in a straightforward palatable fashion.
22  581                  We have the shared experience of
23     growing up with the time signal.  We all make jokes
24     about the half hour later in Newfoundland.  These
25     common experiences are all thanks to the CBC itself.


 1  582                  In explaining why I listen to the
 2     CBC, I have answered some of your questions, at least
 3     in part, but here are my specific comments to three of
 4     them.
 5  583                  Number one, what is CBC's role in
 6     Canada?  CBC's role in Canada is to promote and
 7     preserve Canadian culture by linking, helping define
 8     and celebrating Canada and Canadians through diverse
 9     and quality programming that respects the ability of
10     the listener to form an opinion and response.
11  584                  B, we expect the CBC to help -- I am
12     sorry, to keep the public informed on both the positive
13     and negative aspects of our government and politicians
14     and expect it to continue to offer critical analysis
15     whether through information programs, satirical comedy
16     or whatever, but the CBC should never be a tool of the
17     government.
18  585                  C, we expect these services to be
19     available in both official languages.
20  586                  Second question, how well does CBC
21     fulfil its role as the national public broadcaster?  We
22     think the CBC does an excellent job, but its strength
23     lies in the talents of its professional staff.  In the
24     past few weeks, while the technicians have been out on
25     strike, there has been a vastly reduced quality and


 1     diversity.
 2  587                  Without the CBC, a whole dimension of
 3     Canadian culture is missing.  The CBC needs its
 4     independence and it needs substantial funding if we are
 5     to continue to have quality and diversity and if it is
 6     to achieve its role.
 7  588                  We expect a public broadcaster to be
 8     publicly funded and we object to the continued cutbacks
 9     which must be a tremendous strain on the professionals
10     trying to fulfil their mandate.
11  589                  Third, in the new millennium should
12     the CBC fulfil its role in a different manner than it
13     has in the past?  I never expect the world to be vastly
14     different from December 31st to January 1st in any
15     year.  New technology and evolving social trends will
16     continue to influence how programming is packaged and
17     presented; but I would still expect the CBC to promote
18     and preserve Canadian culture by linking, defining and
19     celebrating Canada and Canadians.  I expect it to be
20     done professionally and efficiently and I expect my tax
21     dollars will be used to support the CBC adequately.
22  590                  In conclusion, thank you for
23     listening to one very ordinary Canadian praising the
24     CBC.  I know I am linked to thousands of others all
25     across the country who feel the same way.  I hope we


 1     will all continue to be linked by receiving the quality
 2     and diverse programming that we have come to rely on
 3     for news and information and entertainment and Canadian
 4     culture.  Thank you.
 5     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 6  591                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
 7     Brett.
 8  592                  MS VOGEL:  Could Judy Fawcett give
 9     her presentation, please?
11  593                  MS JUDY FAWCETT:  Thank you.  I feel
12     a bit like a chicken in a fox coop actually.  I have a
13     background in private broadcasting and my viewpoints
14     are definitely garnered from that experience.
15  594                  There are a few points Mr. Hamilton
16     basically made a very macro view of things that could
17     be done to improve the CBC and to keep it in fact a
18     viable functional network, some more specific things
19     that I have certainly observed over time being present
20     at many of these events, the negative reporting.  I no
21     longer listen to CBC news in the morning and rarely
22     listen in the evening because I would like to just hear
23     the news and not just someone's approach, how can we
24     make a negative story out of this?
25  595                  A reporter's job is to report the


 1     news.  CBC, please, if I wanted an opinion, I would
 2     read the opinion page, the editorial page.  Please
 3     credit the audience with the ability as well as the
 4     intelligence to form an opinion from your news reports.
 5  596                  The other thing is that I have just
 6     observed again over a period of time what I can only
 7     see and hear as a patronizing and an arrogance in
 8     presentations.  This ranges anything from even a simple
 9     interview where the interviewer appears to know more
10     about the person being interviewed than the person
11     themselves.
12  597                  For a station or a corporation that
13     is a national representative, I just think of a program
14     called "Choral Concert" on Sunday mornings and think
15     having lived in four Canadian provinces of the diverse
16     choral programs and the excellence of choral programs
17     and then to be subjected simply because something is
18     done in Toronto and its from Europe it therefore must
19     be world-class instead of listening in fact to some of
20     the Canadian choral programs.
21  598                  The local news, where has it gone? 
22     Many, many private broadcasting stations are in fact
23     providing better coverage.  They are telling us what is
24     going on locally, and there I can give specific
25     examples, again, of not just the coverage but of


 1     imaginative programming where private broadcasting has
 2     been a leader in situations that CBC could have been a
 3     leader.  I think back to a very major storm in Calgary
 4     last year.  Basically, the first time in history almost
 5     the roads were closed, a very new upstart TV station in
 6     fact used their Hummer to transport some doctors to
 7     hospitals so that the medical profession could carry on
 8     their duties.  This was not something that anyone else
 9     did.
10  599                  Another instance is public affairs. 
11     I listen to private broadcasting for public affairs
12     because they tell me what is going on and locally to
13     things that I want to attend or maybe don't want to
14     attend.  I turn to CBC, but then I listen to someone
15     else for when I really want to know what is going on.
16  600                  I am confused and concerned about
17     what really is the mandate of CBC.  Perhaps a long time
18     ago there was one and that the broadcasters actually
19     know and knew what it was.  In 1999, I think we have
20     forgotten in the complaints about cutbacks, et cetera,
21     what the mandate was.  I am very concerned that the
22     idea of quality programming, in fact, only refers to
23     classical music or poetry readings, all of which I have
24     listened to the past.
25  601                  However, if this is a station, a


 1     corporation that is broadcasting to the nation and
 2     covers Canada, sports people are people as well, and I
 3     can attest to living outside the country and being
 4     thrilled to actually see Mark Tewkesbury, a number of
 5     years ago win a gold medal.
 6  602                  If we are going to be all things to
 7     all people, sports people, unfortunately or
 8     fortunately, are also people, and the idea of quality
 9     programming should in fact be extended to all areas of
10     programming.  It isn't just playing classical music.
11  603                  This isn't the 1940s.  This isn't
12     even the 1970s.  People can receive information from
13     many different sources.  Perhaps it is time for CBC to
14     revisit not only their mandate but what it is that they
15     would like to do, why are their numbers down.  People
16     are tuning out because the audience they do have is no
17     longer hearing what they tuned in to hear.  Please,
18     listen to the people.  They are the ones that you are
19     broadcasting to.  Stop complaining.  Don't tell us
20     about the cutbacks.  We all know about them.
21  604                  I have most recently lived in Calgary
22     and if you were in the oil patch there you would
23     understand that there is no such thing as a job
24     guarantee.  If it didn't happen to me personally, it
25     certainly happened to too many people I know who were


 1     doing good jobs who lost their jobs.  Let's just do our
 2     job and stop blaming someone else.  Listeners will come
 3     when you are doing a good job.
 4  605                  Thank you for listening to me.  I do
 5     listen to CBC obviously, as I know some of the things
 6     that are going on, but I do hope you will listen to the
 7     people who aren't tuning into your station any more
 8     because of these reasons.
 9  606                  Thank you.
10  607                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
11     Fawcett.
12  608                  MS VOGEL:  The next presenter is Mary
13     Helen Hatch.
15  609                  MS MARY ELLEN HATCH:  Thank you.  I
16     have been listening, even though I have been knitting. 
17     That is called multi-tasking.
18  610                  I do have a print out of my
19     presentation.
20  611                  All that the last presenter I would
21     endorse their statements.  I don't believe that there
22     is nothing but classical music -- you have obviously
23     got the wrong channel.
24  612                  Thank you, all, thank you for coming
25     to Vancouver.  I live in Abbotsford now, which is about


 1     an hour's drive east of the city.  I was not born in
 2     this country, but my parents, grandparents and some of
 3     my great grandparents were.  I have lived in Ontario,
 4     Quebec, Alberta, the Northwest Territories, and British
 5     Columbia.
 6  613                  I love and I am most interested in
 7     this country called Canada, the number one place in
 8     which to live according to the United Nations report. 
 9     The federal government brags about this honour, and yet
10     intending to destroy, by starvation, the last major
11     communication link from sea to sea to sea, by reducing
12     the funding to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation,
13     and meddling in things about which it knows nothing.
14  614                  I, a willing consumer of the CBC
15     networks for over 42.5 years, am very angry at Mulroney
16     and his ilk who started this blood-letting, which is
17     being continued and compounded by the current Prime
18     Minister and his ilk -- shame on them all!
19  615                  Canadians deserve, and have the
20     right, to a Canadian perspective on local, regional,
21     national and/or international topics from the past,
22     present and/or future as presented on CBC radio and/or
23     CBC TV, all very good until Mulroney's time.  Please go
24     back to the original papers for the still valid reasons
25     that prompted and caused the formation of our unique


 1     radio service initially that expanded to include TV in
 2     its time.
 3  616                  Please protect and defend the CBC
 4     radio and TV for Canadians and whoever happens to be
 5     listening and/or watching.  The CBC is part, I am
 6     willing to bet, of what makes Canada the envy of the
 7     rest of the world.
 8  617                  Thank you.
 9     --- Applause / Applaudissements
10  618                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I also
11     just want to add that this is a wonderful and great
12     diverse country we live in, and for the record I live
13     here in British Columbia and I serve as a member of the
14     CRTC based here.  We have a regional office here.  This
15     is a wonderful diverse country when we have a range of
16     diverse views, and that is one of the beauties of
17     having these consultations and these hearings is that
18     we can hear a range of views about not just the CBC but
19     all the work we do.  I just wanted to remind every one
20     of that, that it is --
21  619                  MS MARY ELLEN HATCH:  I apologize for
22     making my snarky remark, but I don't think the lady
23     that was ahead of me was listening to the programs that
24     I have been listening to.
25  620                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I understand.  I


 1     just wanted to make that point, that we are here to
 2     hear everybody.
 3  621                  MS VOGEL:  The next presenter this
 4     afternoon is Audrey Graham.
 6  622                  MS AUDREY GRAHAM:  Thank you, Madam
 7     Chairman.  I am over here.  Thank you.
 8  623                  It has been very difficult for me to
 9     put this together because I am not good at doing this
10     sort of thing, but I care so much about the CBC that I
11     felt however little I could do I wanted to do it.
12  624                  I care deeply for Canada, and I care
13     deeply for the CBC.  In the rush to economic
14     globalization, our health care system and the CBC, the
15     only two public institutions that prevent us from total
16     realignment with American culture and social programs. 
17     I have always believed that Canada could be a major
18     force for good in the world, that we could -- what we
19     could become would be the result of our collective
20     attitudes.  So often we have been sold short by our
21     leaders and our highest aspirations and possibilities
22     have been underrated and not taken into account.  Not
23     so with CBC, especially radio.  It has given us
24     information, entertainment and education.
25  625                  In the present regressive trends in


 1     society, the dumbing down of America as it is called,
 2     especially of the news media and commercial television,
 3     it is vital that we have a free and flourishing public
 4     broadcasting system to give unbiased news coverage,
 5     critical analysis and cutting-edge journalism.
 6  626                  We must have an arm's-length
 7     relationship to government to allow journalists freedom
 8     to do their work.  I have been inspired by the talent
 9     that abounds in this country and grateful to the CBC
10     for bringing it to us.  I appreciate their service and
11     their dedication to the common good.
12  627                  Once CBC is free of commercials and
13     its funding restored, we can have a public broadcasting
14     system second to none.  It angers me and worries me to
15     see this symbol of all that is the best in Canada being
16     whittled away.  It diminishes us as a people and
17     suggests a hesitation and ambivalence about our future
18     and our autonomy.  It has been my conviction and my
19     hope that some day, somehow, Canadians will find a
20     vision worthy of its natural endowments and many
21     opportunities.
22  628                  We need our public broadcasting
23     system to strengthen our unity, help us appreciate our
24     diversity, keep us informed, and help us evolve to a
25     higher humanity.  Please don't sell us short.  Thank


 1     you.
 2     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 3  629                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
 4     Graham.
 5  630                  MS VOGEL:  Next is Mr. Paul
 6     Ohannesian.
 8  631                  MR. PAUL OHANNESIAN:  Thank you.  Let
 9     me get used to this microphone for a moment.
10  632                  Good afternoon.  My name is Paul
11     Ohannesian.  I am a visual artist and retired
12     architect.  For almost three decades, I have listened
13     to CBC radio on the order of 30 to 40 hours per week. 
14     I wish to place before you three interrelated points.
15  633                  My first point may be characterized
16     by the question: What is the philosophical difference
17     between a true public broadcaster and a typical
18     commercial broadcaster?  I put it to you that the
19     difference is profound.
20  634                  A public broadcaster, such as the
21     Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, has as its mandate
22     the charge to enable the development of human and
23     humane values within the society.  A commercial
24     broadcaster has at its root profit-driven values, which
25     are by their very nature antithetical to the deeper


 1     human values that a healthy society must develop.
 2  635                  Let me offer a few comparisons to
 3     illustrate.  A public broadcaster encourages the
 4     flourishing of a multicultural society in all its
 5     richness and complexity.  A commercial broadcaster
 6     seeks to force all citizens to inhabit one big
 7     monoculture so that they become compliant and easily
 8     susceptible to the enticements of mass advertising.  A
 9     public broadcaster helps to promote a cohesive society
10     through exposing its citizens to the natural variety of
11     people and cultures within its domain.  Through
12     understanding comes empathy; through empathy comes
13     cooperation; through cooperation comes the very
14     strengths of that society.
15  636                  A commercial broadcaster seeks to
16     create a fractured society of haves and have-nots by
17     playing on the material fears of the haves and stirring
18     the envy of the have-nots, all in the name of selling
19     its advertisers' products.
20  637                  A public broadcaster spreads all
21     varieties of human knowledge, because out of curiosity
22     and intelligence comes the real vitality of that
23     society.
24  638                  A commercial broadcaster plays to the
25     lowest common denominator because numerical listener


 1     and viewership ratings determine advertising fee scales
 2     and corporate profitability.  It is of no concern to
 3     them that the lowest common denominator may be rooted
 4     in completely anti-human and anti-environment
 5     attitudes.
 6  639                  A public broadcaster, by enabling
 7     people who are far distant geographically to hear each
 8     other's stories, promotes generosity of spirit to
 9     others than oneself.  A commercial broadcaster promotes
10     self-interest and blatant greed to sell the
11     advertisers' products.
12  640                  A public broadcaster dares to be
13     critical of authority because a healthy democracy
14     depends upon constant examination of the actions of its
15     government and consequent course correction when
16     necessary.  A commercial broadcaster flinches from
17     controversial and challenging topics because fearful
18     advertisers may pull their ads and poof goes the
19     broadcaster's revenue.
20  641                  I move from this set of comparisons
21     to my second point, which is how well has the CBC
22     fulfilled the role of a true public broadcaster?
23  642                  To speak to this, I turn to personal
24     experience, and I must ask your forbearance as I tell
25     my own story for a moment.


 1  643                  I was born in 1947 in Los Angeles,
 2     California, an American.  My entire childhood and
 3     teenage years were shaped by American notions and
 4     ideals.  All of my formal schooling took place there.
 5  644                  The combination of economically flush
 6     times, post-war American self-importance on the world
 7     stage, a culture in which Mickey Mouse was a folk hero,
 8     and a typical American Cold War "education" made me
 9     into a perfect little aspirant to success American
10     style.
11  645                  I am telling you this because I know
12     in my own gut that most Americans know little and care
13     less about the national aspirations of countries other
14     than their own.  I also know from my firsthand
15     experience what one American president meant when he
16     proclaimed that the business of America is business.
17  646                  Finally, I, who grew up only 30 miles
18     from Disneyland know only too well the Americans'
19     obsession to impose their values and set of cultural
20     filters on to every other nation that they can
21     infiltrate with their saccharine and denatured
22     mass-produced entertainment.
23  647                  When it came the time that I was
24     faced with entering the army to serve the ends of those
25     who controlled my country, through the grace of God I


 1     knew that that would be an evil act, and I sought to
 2     serve the land of my birth as conscientious objector. 
 3     Refused that status, I arrived in Canada in March of
 4     1970 as a war objector.  This country welcomed me.
 5  648                  Within my first week of arrival I
 6     discovered CBC radio, and I heard over the airwaves at
 7     last voices of reason and sanity, after having heard
 8     years of lies and brutal policies blaring from radios
 9     and televisions in my country of origin.
10  649                  The CBC very soon became, and it has
11     always remained, my companion, and my teacher, and my
12     ears and eyes on the lives of other Canadians scattered
13     all over a vast landscape.
14  650                  As I sought to learn more about my
15     new country, especially after I became a citizen in
16     1976, the CBC's decades of sound archives brought me
17     the echoes of history, affirming what I had always
18     believed, that there are indeed humane values of
19     justice, wisdom, hope, and constructive cooperation
20     between individuals deep within the human family.  I
21     found out about my Canada, and I liked what I learned.
22  651                  As Canada in the 1980s lurched toward
23     a political showdown in Quebec, it was because of the
24     years of listening to the CBC that my family embarked
25     in 1991 on a six-week odyssey in Eastern Canada to meet


 1     our neighbours in several provinces face-to-face.  Had
 2     it not been for my prior exposure to them through the
 3     CBC's entertaining and educational programming, I doubt
 4     that my curiosity would have led me into that
 5     adventure.
 6  652                  So, to answer the second question
 7     that I put, that is, how well has the CBC fulfilled the
 8     role of a true public broadcaster, my personal answer
 9     is, superbly.
10  653                  With this, I turn to my third and
11     concluding point.  Upon my return from the 1991 trip, I
12     wrote up my travels and self-published 150 copies of
13     the book I entitled, "Beloved Home, One Family
14     Encounters Canada".  I sent a number of copies to the
15     premiers of all the provinces and to key national
16     leaders with a cover letter pleading with them to work
17     hard to ensure that this country would survive and
18     flourish.
19  654                  One of the replies I received was
20     from the then Leader of the Opposition, the Honourable
21     Jean Chrétien, the key paragraph of his letter dated
22     February 26, 1992, reads thus:
23                            "Like you, many Canadians have
24                            written to me to express their
25                            desire to keep Canada united and


 1                            thriving.  As you have
 2                            discovered, increased knowledge
 3                            of our historical and
 4                            geographical uniqueness
 5                            automatically leads to greater
 6                            appreciation of this wonderful
 7                            country we share.  Together, we
 8                            can overcome the present
 9                            barriers and go on to build an
10                            even greater and prosperous
11                            nation."
12  655                  That is what Jean Chrétien wrote to
13     me seven years ago.  Today, that same man in the office
14     of Prime Minister is prepared to complete the
15     destruction of our incredibly vital Canadian
16     Broadcasting Corporation by starving it to death
17     financially.  He is prepared to throw away the very
18     eyes and ears of the Canadian nation for the private
19     enrichment of a few well-placed individuals and
20     corporations.
21  656                  Members of the CRTC, as I conclude my
22     remarks, it is through you today that I address our
23     Prime Minister thus: Mr. Chrétien, when your government
24     was elected to office in 1993, you promised this nation
25     that you would strengthen the CBC.  We, the citizens of


 1     Canada, did not elect and hire you to preside over its
 2     destruction.  We did not entrust you with the
 3     stewardship of this vital nation-building institution
 4     only to see you savage it and bow to the desires of
 5     multinational corporations.  We do not want a United
 6     States style monoculture.  We demand that the strengths
 7     of our multicultural Canada be acknowledged and
 8     strengthened.
 9  657                  Sir, when my 13-year old son reaches
10     the age of 23, I do not want him to look with sorrow
11     and horror on the nation of his birth as I was forced
12     to do with mine.  Keep your promises, Mr. Chrétien, to
13     support and strengthen the CBC.  Keep your promises, as
14     you wrote to me in 1992, to go on to build an even
15     greater and more prosperous nation.
16  658                  Prime Minister Chrétien, sir, keep
17     your promises!
18     --- Applause / Applaudissements
19  659                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
20     Ohannesian, and I think we will take our afternoon
21     break and reconvene at 3:00 o'clock.
22  660                  Thank you.
23     --- Recess at 1445 / Suspension à 1445
24     --- Upon resuming at 1508 / Reprise à 1508
25  661                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good afternoon,


 1     ladies and gentlemen.  We are ready to reconvene.
 2  662                  Madam Secretary.
 3  663                  MS VOGEL:  Thank you, Commissioner
 4     Grauer.  I would like to invite Jim Whitworth to make
 5     his presentation now, please.
 7  664                  MR. JIM WHITWORTH:  I am just going
 8     to address the questions here that have been
 9     recommended by the CRTC.  I am not going to elaborate a
10     lot.  I am here primarily just to show support for CBC
11     as a whole.
12  665                  They ask:  How well does CBC fulfil
13     its role as a national public broadcaster?  As regards
14     radio, it does a very, very good job in my opinion,
15     except that I am unable to get CBC or Radio Two where I
16     live.  I think that it fails us in that respect.  I
17     think that we should have access to it in all places in
18     Canada.
19  666                  As far as TV goes, I think that it is
20     not what it was and it is becoming less and less what
21     it should be.  I think that there is a way too much
22     time spent aping CTV and not enough time spent doing
23     what they can with the budget that they have.
24  667                  In particular, I find the morning
25     news offensive on CBC.  It is trivial.  It is vacuous. 


 1     Its emphasis is totally on entertainment, sports and
 2     business, and I don't feel that that should be the
 3     focus for our national broadcaster.
 4  668                  So, I hope that that answers the
 5     question.
 6  669                  I have sort of answered the question
 7     as far as how does CBC serve -- how well does it serve
 8     the public on a regional as well as a national level,
 9     in that I can't get it.  When I can get it, I am happy
10     with it.  You know, like CBC radio, the one station,
11     serves us well over there.  We do get some coverage,
12     although there isn't a lot happens where I live on the
13     west coast of Vancouver Island, but we are included,
14     and now like we get CBC one from Victoria.  So island
15     coverage is much, much better now.  So I am happy with
16     that.
17  670                  As to should the programming provided
18     by CBC radio and television be different from that
19     provided by other broadcasters, absolutely.  It has to
20     be.  The private broadcasters are money motivated. 
21     That is it.  That is their purpose.  That is their sole
22     function and that isn't the function of CBC.  I find
23     when I listen to the radio, CBC radio that is, I am
24     inspired.  I am stimulated.  I am introduced to
25     Canadian artists and thinkers.  It adds a lot to my


 1     life.  It is an important part in my life and, you
 2     know, I would hate to see them become more commercial.
 3  671                  Is there a special role that the CBC
 4     should play in the presentation of Canadian
 5     programming?  I think that it should be a leadership
 6     role and I think that the funding has to be put back
 7     into place.  It is pretty difficult for CBC to do its
 8     job when their budgets are being cut, cut, cut, cut.  I
 9     think that those cuts show up in programming and in
10     particular the news, once again, or other programming
11     where they are trying to appeal to a market that isn't
12     traditionally CBC.  You know, they want the sports
13     people.  They are trying to appeal to everybody and
14     they are not -- they are certainly not appealing to me
15     any more.
16  672                  CBC radio, I just -- not radio,
17     rather, but TV, I just turn off.  I am a Friend of
18     Canadian Broadcasting.  I try and support CBC by letter
19     writing to the government and what not.  I find that
20     now to get the kind of things which I expect from CBC I
21     have to go to Knowledge Network, for instance, here in
22     B.C., and I send them money.  I would like to have that
23     option also here with CBC.  Instead of me sending my
24     taxes to the government, it goes into the pot, I would
25     like the taxation to be area-specific.  I want to


 1     support CBC.  I would like to see them give me that
 2     option.  This is the amount of money I am paying in
 3     taxes this year, I would like that to go to CBC.
 4  673                  I guess that is about all I have got
 5     to say.  Thank you.
 6  674                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 7     Whitworth.
 8     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 9  675                  MS VOGEL:  With your leave,
10     Commissioner Grauer, I would like to just go through
11     the names that were scheduled to present to make sure
12     that no one has slipped into the room without us
13     knowing about it.
14  676                  Mr. Prasad, Mr. Reid, Shirley
15     Ridalls, Judith McDowell, Patricia Bell, Elizabeth
16     Fralick, Mr. and Mrs. Walker, Doris McNab, Robin Smith,
17     Ian Benson.  It looks like we are up to date.
18  677                  I would like to invite Lesley Millen
19     to make his presentation.
21  678                  MR. LESLEY MILLEN:  In asking for
22     public comment on the Canadian Broadcasting
23     Corporation, you are asking for comment on Canada's
24     broadcasting system in its entirety.
25  679                  Ever since Sir John Aird's Royal


 1     Commission, it has been recognized that the national
 2     broadcasting agency is the corner-stone on which all
 3     the rest of the system rests.  In the seven decades
 4     since the Aird report, that principle has often been
 5     chipped at and pride away, but it has never been as
 6     precarious as it is today.  The CBC has never been more
 7     needed.
 8  680                  Many studies have been made of
 9     Canada's broadcasting system.  I have personally been
10     involved in several.  Looking back, I rather wish I
11     hadn't because virtually all of them took the view
12     either that the CBC was close to perfect -- that was
13     certainly the conventional wisdom when I was on your
14     staff nearly 30 years ago -- or that all it needed was
15     to have its mandate spruced up or its management
16     rejiggered or its funding better arranged.
17  681                  The sad mess that the CBC finds
18     itself in today is a direct result of this refusal to
19     deal with basics; this tinkering at the margins.  The
20     irony is that the people who fought to create the CBC
21     as Canada's national broadcaster, people like Allan
22     Plaut and Graham Spry, never shrank from dealing with
23     basics, even though their names are often invoked by
24     those who believe that the CBC in its present form is
25     sacrosanct.


 1  682                  The CBC in its present form is an
 2     unworkable mess with a few remarkably good elements
 3     that have survived decades of management ineptitude and
 4     critical bungling, bungling that is a mixture of crude
 5     intimidation, lethargy and indifference to public
 6     values and expectations.  Management has been able to
 7     blame government.  Government has been able to blame
 8     management.  And a national treasure has been allowed
 9     to decay.
10  683                  You know the history of the CBC.  You
11     know the arguments for a national broadcaster.  Either
12     you believe those arguments or you don't.  If you
13     don't, then the CRTC should advise the government to
14     revoke its broadcasting responsibilities and allow the
15     market to provide broadcasting service to the Canadian
16     public purely on its own market terms.
17  684                  If you do believe in the role of the
18     national broadcaster, then you should be prepared to go
19     right to the roots of the system to ensure that such a
20     broadcaster is viable and vigorous in terms of today.
21  685                  The CBC, as created more than 60
22     years ago, was admirably designed for its era, but as a
23     vehicle for national broadcasting it is about as
24     appropriate for today's Canada as a 1936 McLaughlin
25     Buick would be for today's highways.  Canada's national


 1     broadcasting policy has not changed in any major way
 2     since 1970.  That policy largely rested on the
 3     assumption that broadcast signals were and would be
 4     scarce, that the most any Canadian could hope for would
 5     be five or six television channels and eight or ten
 6     radio stations.  Such a world is long gone.
 7  686                  Let me propose an alternative
 8     broadcasting environment for Canada with a strengthened
 9     and rejuvenated role for national broadcasting.
10  687                  Since time is limited, I will not
11     attempt to offer reasons for each element of this
12     proposal, although I should be happy to provide written
13     amplification if the Commission desires.
14  688                  First, create a clear and definite
15     split between private and public broadcasting.  Thereby
16     we eliminate the noxious mingling of public money and
17     advertising revenue that has bedeviled the CBC,
18     especially the television services, since the CBC was
19     created.
20  689                  Second, recognize reality and create
21     two operating entities, one in French, one in English,
22     each with a nationwide mandate and appropriate
23     responsibilities.  Let each have a small board and
24     management team who can get on with those
25     responsibilities and whose performance will be subject


 1     to formal review at suitable intervals, say ten years.
 2  690                  Third, cease regulating private
 3     broadcasting almost entirely, with a major exception,
 4     the allocation of frequencies.  After suitable
 5     frequencies for public broadcasters have been
 6     allocated, let the others be auctioned to the highest
 7     bidders for ten-year terms.  Other than that, let the
 8     broadcasters be subject only to ordinary law, criminal
 9     and civil.  Ownership or control of each licence would
10     have to remain Canadian, but there would be no
11     regulation of program or advertising content other than
12     the generally applicable laws governing libel and
13     obscenity.
14  691                  Fourth, let the government determine,
15     on expert advice, what the national broadcasting entity
16     will require as operating funds and enter reserve bids
17     pro rata to ensure that the auction of temporary use of
18     public airwaves will raise at least that much, plus a
19     prudent margin.
20  692                  Fifth, direct the public broadcasting
21     entities to accept no advertising, sponsorship or
22     direct or indirect commercial money.
23  693                  Sixth, abolish the National Film
24     Board and fold whatever is left of its mandate into
25     those of the national broadcasting entities.


 1  694                  Seventh, require the national
 2     broadcasting entities to set out five-year operating
 3     plans -- I stress not business plans but operating
 4     plans -- with objectives consistent with the
 5     Broadcasting Act and with measurable planned activities
 6     towards those objectives.  These plans would be
 7     presented to and debated by a standing committee of
 8     Parliament and reviewed by that committee in the fourth
 9     year of each plan.
10  695                  Eighth, allocate funding from the
11     proceeds of the frequency auction according to a fair
12     division between or among the national broadcasting
13     entities with particular attention to the extent to
14     which each proposes to serve and reflect Canada in its
15     entirety.
16  696                  Ninth, direct the national
17     broadcasting agencies to identify themselves as such,
18     but in a manner emphasizing that they are not subject
19     to government direction.
20  697                  Tenth, create by legislation a review
21     of the Canadian broadcasting system every ten years. 
22     Such a review would be undertaken by a panel of ten
23     persons nominated by the federal government and one
24     person from each province or territory to be selected
25     from the voters' list by lot.


 1  698                  Finally, designate the national
 2     broadcast services as nationally essential to obviate
 3     the tragic and disgraceful situation in which we find
 4     ourselves today threatened with a CBC blackout.
 5  699                  These proposals will be opposed by
 6     all existing participants in the Canadian broadcasting
 7     system.  The existing broadcasters, public and private,
 8     have the most deeply vested of vested interests.  The
 9     public broadcasters have built bloated bureaucracies
10     while all too often starving their creative people,
11     giving their management salary increases while offering
12     pittances or wage freezes to technical and creative
13     staff, often ignoring their national responsibilities
14     in the service of narrow interests.
15  700                  The private broadcasters have long
16     forgotten, if indeed they ever accepted, that their
17     profits come from the monopoly use of public airwaves
18     which are the inalienable property of all Canadians. 
19     They do not own their frequencies.  In acting as if
20     they had perpetual rights to airwaves they took over
21     long ago on the basis of promises long forgotten, if
22     ever seriously offered, they continue a pattern of
23     mercantilism utterly inappropriate to a modern economy
24     or a contemporary society.  They will mouth the mantras
25     of the market, fine.  Let them live by them.


 1  701                  Such a fundamental reshaping of
 2     Canadian broadcasting around a vital core of national
 3     public broadcasting will not be easy, but I believe
 4     there is a new generation of people in Canada that has
 5     the necessary skills and imagination to make it happen. 
 6     All that is needed is for those of us who for far too
 7     long have tried to solve things by tinkering to help
 8     set the direction and then stand out of the way.
 9  702                  Thank you for your attention.
10     --- Applause / Applaudissements
11  703                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
12     Millen.
13  704                  MS VOGEL:  I would like to invite
14     Doris McNab to come and make her presentation, please.
15  705                  Is Doris McNab in the room?
16  706                  NEW SPEAKER:  She is here.
17  707                  MS VOGEL:  Is Doris McNab in the
18     room?
19  708                  NEW SPEAKER:  She was a moment ago. 
20     She is not far away.
21  709                  MS VOGEL:  Can I ask if Robyn Smith
22     and the Raging Grannies are ready for their
23     presentation?
24  710                  Perhaps while we are waiting for
25     those participants to come back in the room, is Mia


 1     Weinberg in the room?
 2  711                  Would you like to go ahead with your
 3     presentation, please?
 5  712                  MS MIA WEINBERG:  I have a very brief
 6     presentation.  I wasn't sure if I was going to be able
 7     to get to speak.
 8  713                  I am a visual artist and I am also
 9     the B.C. representative on the National Council of
10     CARFAC, which is an arts lobby group.  I am speaking
11     here as an individual Canadian, not for the group, but
12     I know that many of my friends and peers feel similarly
13     about this CBC.
14  714                  I became a Canadian citizen in 1995,
15     two weeks before the referendum, and because I was such
16     an avid CBC listener, I knew much more about Canada
17     than I needed to for the citizenship test.  I really
18     felt that I knew this country well in all its aspects
19     from -- not all its aspects but a lot of aspects right
20     across the country, not just Vancouver, which is where
21     I had lived.
22  715                  I listened to the referendum results
23     on Radio Canada in French.  At the time I was working
24     at the post office and in the part of the building I
25     was in you couldn't receive AM radio, and I don't know


 1     whether -- what the jurisdiction is around CBC having
 2     Radio One on FM, but certainly at the time CBC was a
 3     lifeline for me while working at the post office.  I
 4     couldn't have survived without it.
 5  716                  I felt that because I could speak
 6     French I was in a particularly privileged position in
 7     that I could listen to the referendum results live
 8     because I could receive Radio Canada.
 9  717                  I love Canada and I want it to stay
10     together -- this is based on a letter I sent to the
11     Prime Minister at the time.
12  718                  I love Canada and I want it to stay
13     together and flourish, and I strongly believe that
14     culture is an essential component of a healthy society,
15     and CBC radio with its excellent national coverage of
16     people, places and events is crucial to our future.
17  719                  As I did not have cable and rarely
18     read a newspaper, almost all of my information about
19     current affairs, arts, culture and Canadiana, comes
20     from CBC radio.  Their programming is informative,
21     insightful and intelligent, as well as being
22     interesting and entertaining.
23  720                  I cannot stress enough how important
24     CBC radio, both national and local, is to my life, and
25     I am sure that the same can be said for many other


 1     Canadians.
 2  721                  My quality of life is considerably
 3     richer as a result of the nourishment I receive from
 4     listening to the CBC.  To me, it is an essential part
 5     of Canada.
 6  722                  Despite the cuts of recent years, I
 7     still think it is an excellent service, though I do
 8     miss a lot of what has been cut, and I don't like the
 9     fact that we get so many repeats, but I appreciate that
10     the CRTC is not involved with the financing of the CBC.
11  723                  As a visual artist, I look to the CBC
12     to keep me informed of what is happening in the arts
13     across the country and around the world.  Since the
14     cuts to the CBC in recent years, one of the most
15     informative arts programs, "The Arts Today", has been
16     reduced from one hour daily to half an hour, and this
17     has dramatically reduced the scope and depth of arts
18     coverage.
19  724                  That is pretty well all I want to say
20     at this point.  Thanks.
21  725                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
22     much.
23     --- Applause / Applaudissements
24  726                  MS VOGEL:  Has Doris McNab returned
25     to the room?


 1  727                  MS DORIS McNAB:  Yes.
 2  728                  MS VOGEL:  Please come forward and
 3     start your presentation, whenever you are ready.
 5  729                  MS DORIS McNAB:  Okay.  Thank you.
 6  730                  Good afternoon, and I would like to
 7     thank the CRTC for this opportunity to participate.
 8  731                  I am Doris McNab, chairperson of the
 9     B.C. Voice of Women.
10  732                  Voice of Women is a feminist network
11     of thoughtful, committed women across Canada.  VOW
12     cooperates with women in Canada and other countries
13     working for peace, social justice and the environment. 
14     We believe publicly funded CBC is a pillar of the
15     Canadian identity.
16  733                  CBC has given us regional programs of
17     inestimable value to give this country of vast size and
18     great diversity a sense of cohesion.
19  734                  CBC has encouraged the arts, writers,
20     playwrights, poets, singers, musicians, and we ask the
21     Government of Canada to return to its past support and
22     funding of CBC.
23  735                  As well, we ask the Canadian
24     government to increase CBC support staff for job safety
25     and with wages suitable for dangerous work.  I


 1     understand that where there were 33 people working on
 2     transmitters now there is one, and this is very
 3     dangerous for a man to be working alone.
 4  736                  The right to information and media
 5     pluralism is a human rights issue.  Article 19 of the
 6     UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights adopted by
 7     most nations in the world in 1948 speaks of it as such
 8     -- linking the right to speak out with the right to
 9     take in.  Every one has a right to freedom of opinion
10     and expression.  It reads, this right includes freedom
11     to hold opinions without interference and to seek,
12     receive and impart information and ideas through any
13     media and regardless of frontiers.
14  737                  Our government should have an
15     arm's-length relationship with the CBC.  There should
16     never be any interference with a reporter who is only
17     doing his job.
18  738                  Canadians would not thrive isolated
19     from one another.  Each in our region without knowing
20     or caring about those in another region.  We would not
21     thrive in a culture driven by advertising, where we are
22     manipulated to buy, buy, buy.
23  739                  We would not thrive on the U.S.A.'s
24     media, especially television, which appeals to the
25     lowest morals and blankest minds with a diet of


 1     violence, sensationalism and sexual exploitation.
 2  740                  The past few years have brought the
 3     mass media to a new low with endless coverage of O.J.
 4     Simpson, Kenneth Starr and Monica Lewinsky.  I wonder
 5     how many people have tuned out the private broadcasters
 6     and watched PBS or Vision or, better still, our own
 7     Knowledge Network.  I know I have.
 8  741                  Canadian culture is different from
 9     the U.S.A.  Canadians want to promote a Canadian
10     culture that enriches us all, that values
11     egalitarianism, that is caring and compassionate.  This
12     is in direct contrast to the survival of the fittest in
13     economic terms.  We believe in community, and this is
14     one reason we support the CBC.  They allow every region
15     to be heard and this helps to hold the country
16     together.
17  742                  The CBC was brought into being to be
18     a Canadian asset and we want it to continue to do what
19     it is supposed to do, to unite us in one great country,
20     to inform and educate us so that we may participate in
21     our local, provincial, national and world affairs.  It
22     is essential in a country with seven time zones and
23     extending from the 49th parallel to the North Pole that
24     we know and understand one another.
25  743                  The CBC does this.  It truly is the


 1     glue that binds us together.  Programs like "Cross
 2     Country Checkup", "The House", "Sunday Morning", and
 3     "As It Happens", are evidence of this.  We are proud of
 4     the callers to Cross Country because they show varied
 5     opinions, discuss with intelligence and tolerance and
 6     knowledge.  The CBC informs us through excellent
 7     programs -- of course on the radio there is "Ideas" and
 8     on the TV there is "The Nature of Things" and, of
 9     course, "The National".  Who wouldn't miss "The
10     National"?
11  744                  With programs like "Life and Times",
12     we learn about our outstanding citizens.  We need to
13     hear Canada's stories by more drama and readings by
14     Canadian writers.  All of this can stir in us a real
15     Canadian pride better than any flag, although this is
16     my personal opinion, that I support Daryl Duke in that
17     we do need to hear dramas from other countries like
18     Britain, Europe, et cetera.
19  745                  CBC foreign correspondents are vital
20     and must be kept on their assignments.  Canada presides
21     over the security of the United Nations for one year
22     and we expect we will be taking an active and effective
23     role in world affairs.  Canadians must be informed
24     about issues like the -- we were informed about the
25     land mines ban and, perhaps, some day there will be an


 1     abolition of nuclear weapons.  But we need to be
 2     informed so we can understand Canadian initiatives.
 3  746                  This can't be done using information
 4     only from other countries' news sources, especially the
 5     world's most powerful nation.  We need foreign
 6     correspondents at our -- of our own and we deplore that
 7     the CBC staff has been diminished.
 8  747                  Danny Schecter, an American award
 9     winning television producer, is co-founder and
10     executive producer of Global Vision in New York.  In
11     his book, "The More You Watch The Less You Know", he
12     describes American television, and then he asks: What
13     can we do?  One of his suggestions is to promote public
14     television.  He says, "There is no reason why America
15     cannot have a publicly owned BBC or CBC-style public TV
16     system to effectively compete with the commercial
17     system.  It is time to put the public back into public
18     television with more locally elected community boards
19     to encourage PBS to return to its original mandate,
20     calling for alternative voices and more diverse program
21     choices."
22  748                  He suggests that CBC could be funded
23     through a tax on commercial television stations and
24     their advertisers.  There needs to be at least one
25     channel that serves the public interest in the broadest


 1     possible way.
 2  749                  The CBC does this for Canada.  The
 3     CBC is vital to the well-being of Canada where citizens
 4     still take an interest in the environment.  They still
 5     vote in elections and they are concerned about as well
 6     as the physical environment, the mental environment. 
 7     Speaking of our mental environment, Ad Busters had this
 8     to say in the winter of '89, which is ten years ago: 
 9     "Chronic TV watching has become our hidden mental
10     health problem.  It is like smoking was 20 years ago,
11     very addictive, a huge percentage of society is hooked
12     and no one wants to talk about it.  We have created a
13     culture in which it is normal for people to spend a
14     quarter of their waking lives in front of a TV set. 
15     Our children learn more from TV than they do in school
16     and what do they learn?  From MTV and Much Music they
17     learn to absorb a barrage of sex, violence and beer
18     ads.  If they tune into an afternoon soap opera, they
19     learn that adults drink to feel comfortable, use drugs
20     for fun and have sex with each other's mates.  From the
21     evening news, they learn the world events can be
22     understood in 30-second clips.  Most of all, they learn
23     how to consume.  By the time they graduate from high
24     school, North American teenagers have absorbed 350,000
25     TV commercials and thousands of programs, most of which


 1     are themselves ads for a lifetime of consumption."
 2  750                  CBC radio and TV are unique and
 3     invaluable to concerned citizens.  They must survive. 
 4     Funding must be restored so that advertising is not
 5     needed.  Instead of allowing advertisers to write off
 6     the costs as tax breaks, which amounts to billions of
 7     dollars, why not tax advertising to pay for an ad-free
 8     TV?
 9  751                  The CRTC should give support to this
10     vital service and be patriotic enough to give
11     preference at all times to Canada's network.  This
12     nation needs this lifeline.
13     --- Applause / Applaudissements
14  752                  MS VOGEL:  Thank you, Ms McNab.
15  753                  MS VOGEL:  Our next presenters this
16     afternoon are Robyn Smith and the Raging Grannies.
17  754                  May I suggest that you turn on all of
18     the microphones that are closest to you?
20  755                  THE RAGING GRANNIES (IN SONG):
21     We love our Canadian radio,
22     It's the only thing keeping us sane,
23     The others are mostly noise stations,
24     For people with half of a brain.
25     As It Happens, Ideas, and opera and  Almanac,


 1     News shows, art plugs, and
 2     Don't you dare touch Arthur Black.
 3     What is it that keeps us united,
 4     Informed and enlightened as well,
 5     Mess with our national media
 6     And we'll tell you to go to -- the States.
 7     Oh, we're just a gaggle of grannies,
 8     Urging you off of your fannies,
 9     Tell the CRTC
10     Save CBC.
11     No more cuts!
12     The CBC is our lifeline.
13     From Gander to Queen Charlotte Island
14     Private stations don't care,
15     They just want our air
16     No more cuts!
17     Sheila did a Copp out
18     And gave away most of the funds
19     Meant for television
20     To guess who?  Jean and his friends.
21     Oh, we're just a gaggle of grannies,
22     But we've gotten off of our fannies,
23     We're telling you now,
24     We're angry and how
25     No more cuts!


 1     We really mean it
 2     No more cuts!
 3     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 4  756                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, ladies.
 5  757                  MS VOGEL:  Our next presenters this
 6     afternoon are Mr. and Mrs. Ray Walker.  You can pull
 7     that microphone right over to the edge of the table. 
 8     Just push the white button whenever you are ready.
10  758                  MR. AND MRS. RAY WALKER:  I am going
11     to read a number of things that my husband has written
12     on behalf of him because it is difficult for him to
13     talk.
14  759                  Disability gives me a perspective
15     that is like being the canary in the mine.  Cultural
16     developments, technological trends and changes often
17     hit us fragile people earlier and harder, and this is
18     not always a bad thing, especially in Canada.
19  760                  My pencil is an IBM Pentium, voice
20     activated with Dragon Dictate 3.0.  I write stories. 
21     Several have found their way on to the CBC.  They are
22     part of a book I envision that will finally complete my
23     MA in communications.
24  761                  Gradually, I have been losing many of
25     the faculties usually associated with communication. 


 1     By intentionally attempting to communicate in spite of
 2     this, I have gained a great deal.  Being disabled
 3     provides almost continuous opportunities for sitting. 
 4     We have to wait, listening and watching.  It is a
 5     chance to observe and to think.  May I share some of
 6     this with you?
 7  762                  Somehow as a culture, we have bought
 8     into this notion that enough is no longer possible and
 9     excess of every description is in.  Along these lines,
10     might this just be a dated metaphor?  I also hear
11     frequently that the CBC budget is not within the
12     mandate or control of the CRTC, but I believe your Web
13     site is, and to me it is illustrative.  Forty-seven
14     pages devoted to the Information Highway, about a page
15     and a half for TV, a bit more than a page on cable,
16     somewhat less than a page on the telephone, and
17     two-thirds of a page for radio.
18  763                  I have come because I want to talk
19     about the old CBC AM radio -- whoa -- either I didn't
20     read the program or I am not, as they say, up to speed,
21     or I am going to need divine intervention.
22  764                  Well, I am a canary in a mine, one
23     who knows he is, too, and I really miss the non-elitist
24     depth and the enthusiastic appreciation for people, the
25     heart and the skill that is no longer front and centre. 


 1     AM radio wasn't broken and it got fixed.
 2  765                  The consequences of this neutering,
 3     this trivialization will be dire.  Many have spoken
 4     much more definitively and heartfelt than I, but how
 5     many Jeremiah's do you need?
 6  766                  When Sancho Ponza was being
 7     hornswoggled into governing an island against
 8     overwhelming odds and complexities, Don Quixote, the
 9     wind-tilting knight, said, "Oh son, perpetual witness
10     of all the opposite, flame of the world, I of the sky,
11     you behind the sweet refreshment of wine, Apollo to
12     some, Phoebus to others, hero warrior, there a healer,
13     source of poetry, inventor of music, you who are always
14     getting up and in spite of appearances never goes to
15     bed, I sincerely ask you, oh you through whose
16     assistance man is able to give life to man, to warm and
17     illuminate our gloomy imagination, so that my telling
18     of this story might keep pace with the great Sancho
19     Ponza's actions throughout his governance, for I feel
20     myself benumbed, confused and dispirited without your
21     presence.
22  767                  About 30 years ago, John Lily, M.D.,
23     got out of his sensory deprivation tank and called the
24     president.  The man who introduced us to the wonder of
25     dolphins had had what seemed at that time a really


 1     bizarre vision.  In it, he had become very powerfully
 2     convinced that there was going to be a life and death
 3     struggle between hard silicon-based beings and us soft
 4     organic carbon-based life forms.  So certain was he of
 5     the significance of this that his efforts to
 6     communicate it to the powers that be got him moved into
 7     the ranks of the mentally ill.
 8  768                  The disabled are particularly
 9     vulnerable, both to the barriers and the solutions of
10     technology.  I am not a highwayman, one of the
11     technologically literate elite.  This computer is the
12     only pen I could find, and while I am grateful beyond
13     belief, it is a poor and wearying substitute for a pen
14     or a person, and so expensive in so many different
15     ways.
16  769                  A great deal of effort has been
17     expended to make me independent and able to do on my
18     own.  And there is no joy in being someone else's
19     burden, so this is good.  But my wife reads better than
20     Text Reader, so does anybody she ruefully remarks.  Of
21     course.  They say it is only a matter of time before we
22     will be able to, as my basement graveyard of computers
23     attests.  I miss her these days.  She is usually on the
24     phone, trying to get something replaced, repaired or
25     explained while I wait overwhelmed, weary and


 1     discouraged at my screen.
 2  770                  Now, I don't feel the same way about
 3     the CBC radio.  My hardware costs less than $10.  Last
 4     night, I heard music from the Sudan and Gerome Bruner
 5     and Carol Feldman talking for an hour.  What would it
 6     take for a quadriplegic in a cabin on Vancouver Island
 7     to duplicate that?
 8  771                  Just to get the books or the CDs,
 9     Danny's 45 or Rex's chats with everybody, and I have
10     talked with Rex, Glenn Gould live or Don and Minnie
11     Pearl spontaneously and utterly unexpectedly, even to
12     themselves, doing a scene from Hamlet.
13  772                  Barbara telephoned everywhere and
14     even Idi Amin picked up the phone.  This, my window, my
15     people, my country, and I thank you Canadians from the
16     bottom of my heart.
17  773                  There is also a poem that he wrote.
18  774                  A pile of cliches that mean, I have
19     feet that roll and a pen that is a dragon, the canary
20     in the mine, that is me, the exception that proves the
21     rule.  McLuhan said that the hammer is an extension of
22     the hand.  When you have only a hammer, Mark Twain
23     said, everything looks like a nail.  And a good piece
24     of language can heal or kill.  What the CBC means to me
25     -- what?  Are you spamming me a troll?  What did I do


 1     on my summer vacation?  Oh my people, I call to you but
 2     you did not answer, I spoke to you but you did not
 3     hear.  So how many canaries does it take to dance on
 4     the head of a pin?  Oh Canada, it is all just shineola
 5     to these boys.  You Kabuki techno lords with the
 6     burning eyes, I am here in the garden with the radio
 7     on.  It is still and there is always room for one more. 
 8     Listen.  Can we talk?
 9  775                  Radio One, it is practical,
10     affordable, non-elitist.  It is a global leader now. 
11     The infrastructure is already in place.  We can provide
12     more real jobs for real Canadians with creativity,
13     skill, depth, and training.  Radio One is the people
14     medium.  It is already accessible everywhere.  It is
15     the people's media.  It is already great and of course
16     improvable.  It is already a tradition.  It is already
17     unique.  It is meaningful.  It is cool.  It is clearly
18     Canadian.  It is our own and it is CBC.
19  776                  Thank you.
20     --- Applause / Applaudissements
21  777                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you both for
22     coming today.
23  778                  MS VOGEL:  Our next presenter this
24     afternoon is Laurel Payne.  Is Laurel Payne here?


 1  779                  MR. LAURIE PAYNE:  Hi, Laurie Payne.
 2  780                  That is a very deeply inspiring
 3     presentation to follow.
 4  781                  In a sense I come here, too, as a
 5     canary in a mine.
 6  782                  During the last 25 years, I have been
 7     during the winter months a continuous listener to CBC
 8     radio as I went about my work in my studio.  CBC radio
 9     has not only been consistently good, it has been for
10     those who can't bear the indignity of being shouted at
11     to buy hamburgers and other commodities, the only game
12     in town.
13  783                  Some programs, most programs,
14     "Ideas", Eleanor Wachtel, the Saturday and Sunday
15     shows, have been and are consistently excellent. 
16     Others, perhaps less so, but even Danny Finkelman at
17     his worst is a tad above the commercial stations.
18  784                  But since it is the only game in
19     town, and since it is public broadcasting, there are
20     integrities which CBC radio must observe.  These are
21     the integrities of fairness, justice, impartiality,
22     coherence, political neutrality and, above all, gender
23     impartiality.  It is here it seems to me that CBC has
24     strayed a little.
25  785                  Beginning in the late '70's and


 1     continuing at an accelerated pace, a new and strident
 2     feminist agenda began to make its appearance.  During
 3     those two decades into the '90s, the debate about
 4     political correctness began to be staged on radio
 5     broadcasting.  That correctness, it soon appeared,
 6     meant that old discriminatory attitudes towards Blacks,
 7     religious minorities like Jews and women, were
 8     progressively tabooed.  The new felicities were not,
 9     however, extended to Islam, and in a way included white
10     males.  On the contrary, male bashing became the
11     fashion on CBC radio, especially on "Morningside", "As
12     It Happens" and the regional programs.
13  786                  In the early '80s, the day on which
14     men -- not some men but all men generically -- were not
15     described as violent to women and children, was a
16     rarity and the manner and style and incidence of that
17     violence became a regular and increasing part of the
18     morning fare.
19  787                  So, for example, I listened to
20     Marilyn French tell the world, with the help of
21     taxpayers' money, that all men -- not some men, but all
22     men, generically -- were rapists.  The show's host,
23     Peter Gzowski, didn't demure on my behalf, or our
24     behalf.
25  788                  During this period, the anti-male


 1     hatred spread in quantity and intensity in the middle
 2     of the early '90s when it began to taper.  During that
 3     time, letters written to CBC shows and to management
 4     were ignored or brushed off.  Males who didn't like
 5     being targeted anti-male hatred could switch off or
 6     shut up, or both.  Letters were never, ever in my
 7     experience aired on the shows in question.  A wall of
 8     gender censorship had fallen around CBC radio.
 9  789                  It seemed at times like a new
10     McCarthyism.  It was obvious that the doors were wide
11     open to feminism and, the more radical, the better. 
12     Now, feminism is vital and imparts an incredibly
13     beneficial ideology that all fair men have supported,
14     and should certainly support, and it should certainly
15     be on public radio, but so should its counter-foil, and
16     its critics.  They weren't.
17  790                  We listened as Gzowski fulminated in
18     rage and indignation about the engineering student who
19     had said something which was held to be disrespectful
20     of feminists and his raised pack cry helped have the
21     young man in question expelled from the university. 
22     Shortly afterwards, we listened as Gzowski chuckled and
23     tittered with a young woman from the same university,
24     UBC, who published a book entitled, "101 Uses For A
25     Severed Penis".  This book was sold in the university


 1     book store shortly after Lorena Bobbitt brutally
 2     mutilated her husband.  How could he be so biased and
 3     calloused, we asked ourselves, and Gzowski, with equal
 4     ineffectiveness.  Mr. Gzowski is a feminist.
 5  791                  Well, the '80s and early '90s and the
 6     verbal and intellectual violence done to men in that
 7     period are now history.  There has been a slow slacking
 8     off from the level of misandrism, which has been the
 9     decade's broadcasting spore.  It seems that it is less
10     acceptable to bash males today.  But it has by no means
11     ceased and that residual level of bias and anti-male
12     discrimination is still alive and well and is the
13     subject of my paper to you today.
14  792                  Michael Enright and Avril Benoit and
15     Barbara Budd and Mary Lou Finlay carry the flaming
16     cross lit by Gzowski, and on their program it is
17     commonly accepted for feminists to repeat the gender
18     feminist agenda about violence to women and children by
19     men; and, in doing so, they are never questioned,
20     despite the fact that they have been informed about the
21     equality of male-female domestic violence as
22     established by studies such as Steinmitz, Gillers,
23     Murray, and many others.
24  793                  The CBC management and radio and
25     staff have been advised that the majority of violence


 1     against children is committed by females and they have
 2     that information about those studies.  I have
 3     personally sent them to them and I know they have
 4     interviewed Senator Anne Cools and been advised of
 5     their existence.
 6  794                  Yet, the men's violence against women
 7     and children party line is never challenged.  The
 8     anti-male bias today, however, manifests itself more
 9     subliminally.  One of these ways is the failure of
10     radio hosts to challenge statistics.  For example,
11     during the war around Sarajevo, the morning show and
12     "As It Happens", repeatedly featured the "reports" of a
13     woman correspondent who talked about 5,000 women being
14     raped in this conflict.  Now, this report came at a
15     time when the city and the war zone was completely shut
16     off and isolated from outside observation, when even
17     the most intrepid correspondent couldn't get in, and
18     even numbers of the dead were unavailable.  Yet, the
19     patently phoney reports were repeated and repeated and
20     followed by commentary about the need for men to stop
21     their violence towards women, et cetera.
22  795                  Contemporary bias shows in the way in
23     which programming favours female interest areas over
24     male areas.  For example, one day a little while ago
25     began with an hour of discussion on menopause, followed


 1     by programs about a Chinese woman who had overcome the
 2     restraints of patriarchal custom and was living on her
 3     own while in a family setting.  This was followed by a
 4     program about an Iranian woman and her struggle to
 5     integrate; and this was topped off with yet another
 6     female interest program whose title I have forgotten.
 7  796                  At times listening to CBC radio it
 8     almost seems as if one is eavesdropping on women
 9     talking about and to women and one begins to wonder if
10     there are indeed two genders.
11  797                  Where this may seem to be a minor
12     irritation, but the subliminal message that is being
13     sent to men is that in this culture they are not
14     important or valid.  Discussions about dead beat dads,
15     men's familial obligations, divorce, family law
16     repercussions and implications, in fact, all, not some,
17     but all issues where the conflicting interests of the
18     genders is at issue are conducted with women talking to
19     women lawyers and women social workers and women
20     sociologists, et cetera.
21  798                  I am not exaggerating this fact.  I
22     have never heard gender issues opened up to men, ever. 
23     Consider how CBC radio reports disasters, plane
24     crashes, mine disasters, bombings.  If the disaster is
25     in a mine where the males are the only sex represented,


 1     the victims are referred to as workers, miners, people,
 2     crew, personnel, et cetera.  They are systematically
 3     desexed and by being desexed dehumanized and devalued. 
 4     If, however, the disaster includes females, the typical
 5     report format is something to this effect:  A bomb
 6     exploded in the main market in Jerusalem killing 15,
 7     five women and three children were among the dead.  Or
 8     a Swissair 747 crashed off Nova Scotia killing 100,
 9     including 40 women and children.  The message is clear
10     -- the lives of women, according to CBC radio, are more
11     important and valuable than those of men and therefore
12     more newsworthy when they are terminated.
13  799                  In case this, too, should appear
14     trivial, I invite you to imagine that you are a Negro
15     or a Jew and that day after day you hear disaster
16     accounts in this format:  A bomb went off in
17     Mississippi today killing 18, five whites were among
18     the dead.  A bomb exploded in Tel Aviv, three
19     Christians were among the dead.  Slowly, day, report by
20     report, you get the message, that males are disposable,
21     their lives are of lesser value and therefore by
22     extension their opinions, values, the integrity of
23     their sexuality, their visions, their feelings, and
24     their very souls are inferior.  This is the subliminal
25     message being sent when feminist agenda dictates who


 1     gets the money for documentaries, who gets interviewed,
 2     who gets to read poetry, whose short stories are heard,
 3     which sex the interviewed scientist should be.  This is
 4     the message being sent to end the conjunct, women and
 5     children are being used again and again, excluding as
 6     it does men from the human family and relegating them
 7     to the unimportant and disposable.
 8  800                  Consider how fastidious CBC is about
 9     "chairperson", et cetera, and how content with
10     "gunman", "midwife".  This is part of the mentality
11     that allows us to label the almost completely male army
12     of suffering and deprivation when we report on them on
13     CBC as street people and the homeless.  If the sex of
14     the homeless happened to be predominantly female, they
15     would be enumerated by sex and their condition would be
16     improved overnight.
17  801                  I bring these things before the
18     committee today because they are an invisible virus of
19     inhumanitarianism running through our broadcasting
20     policy and, as such, it needs correction.
21  802                  There is an urgent need for a fully
22     funded radio watch committee, just like the one funded
23     to look after women's interests, to document the
24     problem and bring it to light and remediation.  It is
25     vital that male voices are represented in political


 1     gender issues.  There are, after all, no rights and no
 2     wrongs in human gender discussions.  The vital content
 3     is the dialogue itself.  But censorship of one side or
 4     the other is a wrong, and a wrong that is absolutely
 5     and terribly dangerous to our most intimate and our
 6     vital relationships to each other and the very nerve
 7     centre of our society.
 8  803                  I am sorry to say that a despite all
 9     its wonderful qualities, CBC radio is an active agent
10     of misandrism, male hatred and discrimination.  In the
11     name of social health, of fairness, of humanitarianism,
12     and for our sons we need to correct it.  That need is
13     part of the integrities I mentioned which is the
14     mandate of the corporation granted by the public. 
15     Without these integrities, there is no justification
16     whatsoever for the corporation's continuance, no matter
17     how stellar its technical performance.
18  804                  I would personally love to see it
19     continue, but justly, fairly, and free of the taint of
20     gender bias.
21  805                  Thank you.
22  806                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
23     Payne.
24     --- Applause / Applaudissements
25  807                  MS VOGEL:  Our next presenter this


 1     afternoon is Mr. Reid.
 2  808                  Mr. Reid?
 4  809                  MR. T.H. REID:  Thank you.  I will be
 5     very brief.  I am here today because I support the CBC. 
 6     I feel that the CBC keeps me informed with what is
 7     going on in the rest of Canada and, not only that, in
 8     the rest of the world.
 9  810                  I am one of those people who have
10     reached the age I can't sleep at nights, and I listen
11     to Radio Australia, Deutsche Welle, Austria
12     International -- all this comes to me by the CBC.
13  811                  The reason I asked to speak today is
14     I am very concerned.  I am concerned about the fact, as
15     I read in the paper, that there is a movement under way
16     to have one news manager in Ottawa.  I feel this is
17     wrong.  I feel it is too close to the Prime Minister's
18     office.  I feel that the CBC should be divorced from
19     any relationship with the Prime Minister's office
20     entirely.  I feel that it should --
21     --- Applause / Applaudissements.
22  812                  MR. T.H. REID:  I feel that it should
23     be under a separate committee, maybe of various parties
24     in the government, and report to them.  I feel also
25     that the person who is appointed to head the CBC should


 1     be not a political appointment.  I feel it should be
 2     one outside of that.
 3  813                  Also, Canada does not revolve around
 4     the Ottawa-Montreal-Toronto triangle.
 5     --- Applause / Applaudissements.
 6  814                  MR. T.H. REID:  The reason I say this
 7     if the government wants to have a department of
 8     propaganda, a ministry of propaganda to control our
 9     thinking, why don't they just come out and say it?  Why
10     beat around the bush?  I feel that what is being done
11     to the reporter, Mr. Milewski, who I don't know except
12     seen him on the television, is a crime.  The man was
13     doing his job.  He was reporting it as he saw it.  He
14     certainly is entitled to have free thoughts, but I
15     don't think he should be put under the strain and
16     stress that he has been by the Prime Minister's office. 
17     I think that is wrong.  This is a very democratic
18     country -- or supposed to be -- let's keep it that way.
19  815                  Finally, I would just like to say
20     that the CBC, as it was said in Charlottetown, is not
21     for the youth; it is for the people who have sown their
22     wild oats, if you want to put it that way, and who have
23     turned around and reached the stage in life where they
24     want to be informed and listen to things other than the
25     rock bands.  I don't think that any country in the


 1     world can complain about the way the CBC presents Peter
 2     Gzowski, Bill Richardson on the West Coast, and all the
 3     other ones.  We are very fortunate.  We get information
 4     and we get some nice dialogue and I hope we never get
 5     into a lot of propaganda.  That worries me.
 6  816                  I am just a country boy, but I enjoy
 7     the CBC and I am proud to be a Canadian.  But I want to
 8     end up by telling you one thing that happened that I
 9     can't understand.  I was travelling in Ireland and I
10     walked up to the bar and the barkeep said to me, "Where
11     are you from in the states?"  And I said, "I am not an
12     American".  He said, "What are you?"  And I can't
13     explain this, but my reply to him was, "I am a British
14     Columbian".
15  817                  So, on those remarks, I would like to
16     thank you for giving you my opportunity to say my
17     piece.  Thank you.
18     --- Applause / Applaudissements
19  818                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
20     Reid.
21  819                  MS VOGEL:  I with like to invite
22     Frederica Bolton to come forward and make her
23     presentation, please.
25  820                  MS FREDERICA BOLTON:  CBC radio is a


 1     joy to me.  I speak only for myself, but I am a former
 2     registered nurse, retired in good standing and
 3     honourary member of my alumni association.
 4  821                  I consider our health and sickness
 5     care to be the best in the world.  This is being
 6     repeated over and over again.
 7  822                  CBC radio keeps us informed of our
 8     health care.  In fact, it helps keep the health care
 9     costs down.  An informed public is most important for a
10     democracy.
11  823                  CBC needs to increase its staff.  We
12     have the best minds working in the CBC.  There is
13     unemployment in the country so therefore we should be
14     employing far more people in the CBC and taking care of
15     those workers who are already there, the technicians,
16     the reporters, the announcers, all across the board. 
17     It is our most cherished possession -- the CBC radio. 
18     I hope you will increase the funding.
19  824                  Thank you.
20     --- Applause / Applaudissements
21  825                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mrs.
22     Bolton.
23  826                  MS VOGEL:  I just want to do a check
24     to make sure that no one has come in that was scheduled
25     to present that we haven't heard this afternoon.


 1  827                  Marsha Drake; Chris Cartier; Joseph
 2     Cowan; Mr. Prasad; Shirley Ridalls; Judith McDowell;
 3     Elizabeth Fralick; and Ian Benson.
 4  828                  That completes the list.
 5  829                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think what we
 6     will do is take a 15-minute break and reconvene at 25
 7     past four and, if some of the scheduled presenters have
 8     appeared, we will reconvene then.
 9  830                  Thank you.
10     --- Recess at 1613 / Suspension à 1613
11     --- Upon resuming at 1629 /  Reprise à 1629
12  831                  MS VOGEL:  I believe that Shirley
13     Ridalls is ready.  Is that how you pronounce your name? 
14     Whenever you are ready, just hit the white button.
16  832                  MS SHIRLEY RIDALLS:  Thank you.
17  833                  Good afternoon to the panel and to
18     any other presenters and interested others.
19  834                  I will argue for an even stricter and
20     non-privatized continuation of the CBC -- stop the
21     cuts.  They are of no value to us as a country.  For my
22     part, I am going to be very direct and I thought I
23     would say fasten your seat belts because we are going
24     on a journey.
25  835                  I have up to now considered the CBC


 1     as a string that has kept us Canadians together from
 2     sea to sea and later the other sea for 61 years.  I now
 3     regard it as it should have been regarded as a hawser
 4     rope, those big thick things that hold ships to the
 5     shore.
 6  836                  In the past two decades in
 7     particular, it has been worn down, beaten up,
 8     downsized, criticized and any other adverb that you can
 9     put to it, from a string to a thread.  I ask you to
10     increase that thread back up to the hawser rope.
11  837                  Unfortunately, it has been done by
12     government and inert apathetic view of the population
13     by whom doubt and seem not to care and have any
14     appreciation for their listening or their viewing of
15     their actors, fellow Canadians, the innovators, the
16     technicians, all that belong to the CBC.
17  838                  I realize it is a Canadian thing to
18     have a ho-hum attitude toward a good Canadian
19     enterprise and not to recognize it for its worth, or
20     its value.  So let us do an un-Canadian thing and give
21     it a resounding and needed support.
22  839                  On the farm in Saskatchewan, the
23     grain quotations were extremely important to us.  The
24     long winter nights with cards and reading, but then
25     there was Saturday night at "Hockey Night in Canada"


 1     with Foster Hewett.  And then there was W.O. Mitchell
 2     with "Jake and the Kid".  The Happy Gang came along
 3     with their particular brand of fun and humour.
 4  840                  It was all looked forward to and then
 5     we come into the war years and our broadcasters were
 6     down there in Argentina and for three days we held on
 7     wondering what was going to happen.  Finally, the big
 8     German battle ship was sunk in the mouth of the river
 9     Platt in Argentina, but we held on for three days
10     listening to this.  All the war correspondents, Matthew
11     Houghton, Peter Stursberg, Marcel Ouimet, they were all
12     there for us, and they told us what was going on in the
13     war, but they told us what they wanted us to know.
14  841                  Then there was Lorne Greene reading
15     the news, dubbed the "voice of doom" because he always
16     came through with the bombings and everything.  He went
17     on to bigger and better things in Hollywood, but he got
18     his training, his experience, in everything at the CBC. 
19     He had his own ability, but he did need the experience.
20  842                  We have produced good reporters and I
21     will point out that they must be good because they are
22     going to the United States and they are welcomed with
23     open arms and big dollars.
24  843                  In TV all the newscasters are
25     present, Peter Mansbridge, Knowlton Nash, Peter Kent,


 1     all the way down to Ed Brown.  They presented the news
 2     to us, they kept us together.  They did represent us
 3     from sea to sea and they told us what was going on. 
 4     The mine disaster in Nova Scotia, Springhill, all of
 5     these things.
 6  844                  Now on to radio, "As It Happens" with
 7     our dear Barbara Frum, later to go on to TV.  Could
 8     anyone surpass her as an interviewer?  I was speaking
 9     to a gentleman the other day and he said, "Barbara got
10     in touch with a Sheik in Arabia and he said how did you
11     get my telephone number and she said, I have a very
12     efficient staff."  Could she get everything out of an
13     interview that she really wanted to?  She had the
14     ability.  As a tribute, CBC have named the new atrium
15     after her, and what a lovely tribute to her.
16  845                  Where would we have been without
17     Peter Gzowski to open up the country from sea to sea
18     and latterly the north?  He told us how the north
19     lived, what they did, how they thought, what their
20     aspirations were, and this is where he has kept us
21     together.
22  846                  Likewise, Vicky Gabereau, with her
23     very good sense of humour and her form of interviewing
24     worldwide people. Unfortunately, they were both
25     summarily dumped by the CBC.


 1  847                  The "Beachcombers" and our own Bruno
 2     Gerussi, the "Beachcombers" were sold to 35 different
 3     countries and it represented us, Canadians.
 4  848                  Our actors reflect our culture.  They
 5     reflect us like a mirror.  When I say "culture" we
 6     struggle with our identity and we are now going to get
 7     into a battle with the United States over the simple
 8     word "culture".  If we don't honour, hold and support
 9     the CBC, any identity will rather fade away.
10  849                  In an instance here in British
11     Columbia, BCTV has Canada AM, good, informative,
12     program, but right afterwards there are two well
13     coiffured, well made up, well dressed stooges sitting
14     on a stool each gossiping about people that you and I
15     have no idea what they are talking about.  It seems
16     that no one wants to be educated or be informed or have
17     good theatre.
18  850                  I call this sort of thing the wheel
19     of fortune or to turn a wheel down, I call it garbage
20     in and garbage out.
21  851                  "Anne of Green Gables" has been with
22     us for some time, thanks to Maud Montgomery, and how
23     many Japanese couples have been married at Anne of
24     Green Gables and how did they find out about Anne of
25     Green Gables?  I guess it must have been through


 1     something that the CBC did.
 2  852                  Our actors work here, they live here,
 3     they spend their money here and for a statistic about
 4     10 or 12 years ago they produced about $11 million for
 5     our economy, and then there is our Shakespearean
 6     festival.
 7  853                  Radio International has brought
 8     immigrants to this country.  I have listened to them on
 9     interview and why they came -- because they liked what
10     they heard, so we must have presented something very
11     well.  It might be an un-Canadian thing to do is
12     represent ourselves very well.
13  854                  A Canadian woman in Africa finally
14     found "As It Happens", couldn't believe her good luck
15     and bursts into tears because she was home sick.
16  855                  Canada Overnight, it is not a very
17     good time, but for the people who are up from 12:30 to
18     6 a.m. they take us around the world.  They inform us. 
19     They take us to Great Britain, France, Germany,
20     Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, New Zealand,
21     Australia, and that is just a few of the places that
22     they go.  And we find out what we are doing well or
23     what we are not doing well.  We find out that they have
24     the same problems as we do.
25  856                  But somehow or other we don't do it. 


 1     We do the un-Canadian thing and don't do it.  I
 2     remember the Plouffe family on the radio, what a
 3     delight.  The Plouffe family isn't any more and what do
 4     we get from Quebec?  We do need to have things from
 5     Quebec.  We now have a kind of shoot 'em up program. 
 6     But we need something during the day or the later night
 7     so that we get some flavour of Quebec.  I don't know
 8     what flavour they get of us.
 9  857                  If the CBC is strangled, I can
10     foresee us going backwards and being Balkanized, which
11     we used to be.  It was then you are in the west, it is
12     east, and there was no talk of the Maritimes.  Now, we
13     have the west battling central Canada and east trying
14     for their share and Quebec needs their share also.
15  858                  Central Canada can no longer be the
16     wheel, the hub, but we can't operate in isolation any
17     more, we have to be a country from sea to sea to sea. 
18     The one thing that I guess I resent very much is if I
19     travel to Chilliwack my truck radio gives out and I get
20     a U.S. station and I resent that wholeheartedly.
21  859                  If we cut any more, we really will
22     isolate Quebec.  We will have tunnel vision for our own
23     regions.
24  860                  Unfortunately, we will then get a
25     blanc mange of news and theatre and intelligence, what


 1     a pity that would be.  It would be the Canadian thing
 2     to take the blancmange.  Why not do the un-Canadian
 3     thing and grasp the CBC with both hands and hold on
 4     tight?  We and other national broadcasters are
 5     presumably in jeopardy.  I suggest that if we don't
 6     hold our national broadcasters, that we will be in
 7     jeopardy of having a -- and in peril of having this
 8     blancmange of listening and viewing.
 9  861                  I will take a few words from our own
10     Lieutenant-Colonel John McRae, and I will talk about
11     the torch that we carry and others carry for the CBC. 
12     We throw it to you for you to hold high, so, please, do
13     not fail us.  Thank you.
14  862                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
15     Ridalls.
16  863                  MS SHIRLEY RIDALLS:  I would like to
17     show you a 1998 CBC early years calendar.  Frank
18     Shuster, the Happy Gang, that I spoke of, Marcel
19     Ouimet, there is Lorne Greene, there is Glenn Gould,
20     now a very prestigious thing, and there is Uncle
21     Chicakamus in Hollyhock, and there is Maggie Muggins,
22     the Sleeping Princess, and there is the -- golly,
23     Gordie Tapp, Lorraine Foreman, the Tommy Hunter Show,
24     and here is our CBC, the Front Page Challenge, and
25     there is Frank Shuster, Wayne and Shuster again.  They


 1     were invited back to Ed Sullivan 17 times and they were
 2     asked to host it five or six times and the Americans
 3     couldn't understand that.  They couldn't understand
 4     that.  Here is This Hour Has Seven Days.  There is the
 5     Friendly Giant.  Good heavens, there is Don Messer and
 6     the Islanders, Just Mary, Mary Gagnon.  There is Earl
 7     Cameron, Robert Goulet, Chez Hélène.  Didn't have the
 8     opportunity to hear Chez Hélène, and our own just
 9     departed Clyde Gilmour and Foster Hewett, Max Ferguson
10     and alley McVey.  Thank you.
11  864                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
12  865                  MS VOGEL:  Our next presenter this
13     afternoon is Robert Tivy.
15  866                  MR. ROBERT TIVY:  Thank you for
16     bringing me on.  I just wanted to say that I am not
17     going to be able to add much to what some of the
18     previous speakers have said, including the most recent
19     one.  But I spent a couple of hours in the other
20     conference room in the early afternoon, and then I have
21     been here for about the last hour, and enjoyed it all. 
22     I noticed that there was quite a preponderance of
23     support in favour of the CBC radio.
24  867                  My wife and I both listen to CBC
25     radio, particularly musical programs, and we heartily


 1     support it, too, but unless I missed it in the time I
 2     went out for a coffee or whatever I didn't hear very
 3     much specifically about the CBC television.  So I
 4     thought that perhaps I could just take a couple of
 5     minutes and say that my wife and I both do watch CBC
 6     television and value it highly for many years.
 7  868                  We have lived and worked in seven of
 8     our ten provinces and so we have sort of an ear for the
 9     various regions of our country.  But the previous
10     speaker had of course mentioned the "Beachcombers"
11     which is something of B.C., if you will, and "North of
12     60" has been mentioned a couple of times, whites and
13     aboriginals in the north, which is very good.  "Jake
14     and the Kid" for the Prairies, and there is one still
15     running "Wind At My Back" which is representative of an
16     Ontario story, family story, and in Quebec in addition
17     to the Plouffes there was a very good series called
18     Emily which was its English name.  It was Les filles du
19     Louis, or something like that, en français and I have
20     forgotten the man's name.  Sorry about that.
21  869                  Then at the present time, recently,
22     there has been the last two or three years "Black
23     Harbour" which is representative of Nova Scotia and the
24     Maritimes.  These all impart a distinct flavour of
25     their own region and yet they are something that we


 1     feel is enjoyable by all of us and helps us see the
 2     other parts of the country.
 3  870                  I read something recently with which
 4     I agree which said that we should try for instance to
 5     get more representation of Quebec characters and things
 6     that are shown in the west, and I think the previous
 7     speaker echoed that, too, and we should of course try
 8     to see more of our other cultures as able to be heard
 9     in French.
10  871                  We of course do hear quite a bit of
11     our French artists in song, and I recently saw the
12     Cirque du Soleil in Florida at Disneyworld, and it is a
13     marvellous, marvellous presentation.  Our next door
14     neighbour saw the version of Cirque du Soleil in Las
15     Vegas in the new hotel there and they say it is
16     similarly good.  So it shows the type of talent that we
17     have if we can keep presenting it and bringing it along
18     and spreading it around.
19  872                  We even turn every week to get a
20     laugh at the "Royal Canadian Air Farce".  It is a
21     little crude at times in some ways, but it is a way of
22     laughing at ourselves and we enjoy the depictions that
23     are put forward there.
24  873                  I think that is about all I would
25     like to say.  I appreciate having been able to come and


 1     hear the various speakers and presentations and we
 2     certainly hope that CBC can be continued, improved
 3     where it may require, or change with the times where
 4     required, but it is a vital part of our Canadian life
 5     and I always say that I don't want to see them get rid
 6     of the Canadian post office or VIA Rail Canada or CBC,
 7     but I would place CBC at the top of the list of the
 8     things that we think we need to continue to be a
 9     unified nation.
10  874                  Thank you very much.
11  875                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
12     Tivy, very much.
13  876                  MS VOGEL:  I would like to call Mr.
14     Iain Benson to come to make his presentation, please.
16  877                  MR. IAIN BENSON:  Thank you very much
17     for agreeing to see me this late in the afternoon.  I
18     would like to thank the CRTC for this opportunity to
19     address a few brief comments to you today on a matter
20     of real importance to Canada.
21  878                  I am here to address that aspect of
22     the question that I think is important not only for the
23     CBC but all aspects of Canadian public life.  We need
24     the open discussion of what binds us together as
25     citizens, what we hold to be most true about our common


 1     lives together and what our various traditions,
 2     including religious traditions, have to offer us all in
 3     this task of understanding.
 4  879                  Like many people, I am concerned that
 5     the discussions about religion and religious traditions
 6     are being driven from the public agenda in area after
 7     area.  I myself have had the privilege of being on most
 8     of the major CBC programs, most recently on "Ideas",
 9     and I am greatly privileged to have had that
10     opportunity, but I am very concerned that as a part of
11     what you recommend in a licensing review you advocate
12     very clearly the need for CBC to address in more forums
13     than it currently does the importance of religion to
14     Canadian culture.  This is important because the shared
15     faith of a culture is not just expressed in terms of
16     its main religious traditions.
17  880                  Everybody has a natural faith,
18     whether they are religious or not.  It is now well
19     recognized by historians of culture that cultures need
20     a robust understanding of what these faith commitments
21     are in order for citizenship to be maintained over time
22     and for the glue in a sense, the binding force of a
23     culture, to remain effective.
24  881                  As a constitutional lawyer and one
25     involved in the debates that one sees between different


 1     rights' claimants, it is imperative in Canada if we are
 2     going to have law and media and politics functioning
 3     well that those binding principles that keep us all
 4     together, no matter what group we are in, are
 5     refurbished, brushed off, kept before the public eye,
 6     and this involves the media.
 7  882                  CBC in its programs "Tapestry",
 8     "Ideas" and, to a lesser extent, "Cross Country
 9     Checkup" has been very important in raising some of
10     those questions of mutual binding that we would see
11     most developed in religion.
12  883                  On television, "Man Alive" addresses
13     that, but the rumour is that "Man Alive" is about to be
14     cancelled.  That is very, very serious.
15  884                  In Canada, we cannot cancel religious
16     programs, or programs designed to raise these important
17     common good questions.  We need to encourage them,
18     develop more of them.  We simply don't have the luxury
19     of a view of secularism that drives religion out of
20     public discussions.
21  885                  Last year, "Tapestry" did a program
22     on religion and science.  The requests they had for
23     tapes of that program greatly exceeded any other
24     program that they had done.  Statistics Canada in its
25     1991 survey asked the question of Canadians:  What


 1     religious category do you put yourself in? The vast
 2     majority, close to 90 per cent, put themselves in
 3     either the Jewish, Catholic or Protestant categories,
 4     and there were other religious categories as well. 
 5     Significantly, very few Canadians chose no religion for
 6     themselves.  I think this is important.
 7  886                  It is a fact of Canadian life that
 8     needs to be considered and it needs to, in my
 9     respectful submission, be part of your recommendation
10     to the -- in the CRTC licence renewal process.
11  887                  It ought to be an important part of
12     the CBC's mandate in the coming millennium to emphasize
13     far more than it does today the importance not only of
14     religious communities to Canada but of religious
15     questions to Canadians.  It is not an exaggeration to
16     say that in some great part the future of the country
17     will hinge on how these questions are dealt with.
18  888                  My recommendation therefore, Madam
19     Chair, is that you should make increased religious
20     coverage a recommendation for licence renewal.
21  889                  Thank you very much.
22  890                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
23     Benson.
24  891                  MS VOGEL:  Is there anyone who was
25     scheduled to speak who has not yet spoken this


 1     afternoon?
 2  892                  Then I will invite representatives of
 3     CBC to make a few remarks.
 5  893                  MS SUSAN ENGLEBERT:  Thank you very
 6     much.  My name is Susan Englebert.  I am the Regional
 7     Director of Radio for British Columbia, and on behalf
 8     of my colleagues I again would like to thank you for
 9     giving us the opportunity to take part in these
10     consultations.
11  894                  It has been quite an afternoon,
12     listening to the passion that some people have for the
13     CBC, and also for the very varied opinions that people
14     have about the CBC and what we should be doing.
15  895                  As you know, we are going before the
16     Commission in May and we are listening very carefully
17     to everyone's submissions and taking note.  We will be
18     contacting every one that has made a presentation here
19     to answer questions.  We will certainly be reviewing
20     people's ideas and using these to go into the hearings
21     in May.
22  896                  So, again, thank you very much.  It
23     has been quite an afternoon.
24  897                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
25     Englebert.  We will now adjourn until six p.m.


 1  898                  I would like to thank everybody for
 2     being here today and those who spoke for sharing their
 3     views in helping to inform our decision making.  Thank
 4     you.
 5     --- Recess at 1700 / Suspension à 1700
 6     --- Upon resuming at 1800 / Reprise à 1800
 7  899                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good evening,
 8     ladies and gentlemen.  I think we are just about ready
 9     to start.
10  900                  Welcome to this public consultation
11     on the CBC.  This is the third session we have had
12     today.
13  901                  My name is Cindy Grauer and I am the
14     CRTC Commissioner for British Columbia and the Yukon.
15  902                  We are here to gather your views and
16     comments on CBC radio and television.  In your opinion,
17     how should the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation fulfil
18     its role in the coming years?
19  903                  The CBC is a national public service,
20     broadcasting in English as well as in French.  It plays
21     an important role in the Canadian broadcasting system. 
22     Today, many elements are constantly being added to the
23     broadcasting system, as new technologies multiply,
24     converge, open up new horizons, and increasingly offer
25     new services.  In this context, we want to know what


 1     are your needs and expectations as viewers and
 2     listeners of the CBC.
 3  904                  Given that, it is very important that
 4     the Commission hears what you have to say.  We must not
 5     lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public
 6     organization that serves Canadian citizens.  In this
 7     capacity, we are responsible to you.  This is why my
 8     fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to come
 9     and meet with you to discuss these issues and why we
10     are holding this series of regional consultations, from
11     one end of the country to the other, in eleven Canadian
12     cities, from March 9th to 18th.
13  905                  These consultations are designed to
14     give you a chance, on the eve of a new millennium, to
15     express your opinion on the CBC's role, the programming
16     it offers and the direction it should take at the
17     national, regional and local levels.
18  906                  Through these consultations we hope
19     to enter into an open dialogue with you and to hear
20     your concerns.  Your comments will form part of the
21     public record which will be added to the record of the
22     public hearing on the CBC that will begin in Hull, next
23     May 25th.
24  907                  At this upcoming hearing, the
25     Commission will examine the CBC's application for the


 1     renewal of its licences, including radio, television
 2     and its specialty services, Newsworld and Réseau de
 3     l'information.  You can also take part in that public
 4     hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 
 5     If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the
 6     specific licence renewals being examined when you file
 7     your comments.
 8  908                  Now, I would like to come back to
 9     today's consultations.  Please allow me to introduce
10     the CRTC staff who will be assisting us today: 
11     Marguerite Vogel, who will be our hearing manager; and
12     we have Sandra Caw and Peter Healey from our Western
13     and Territories Regional Office.  Please feel free to
14     call on them with any questions you might have about
15     the process today, or any other matter.
16  909                  So that you will all have the
17     opportunity to speak, we ask that please limit your
18     presentation to ten minutes.  As these consultations
19     are a forum designed especially for you, and we want to
20     listen to as many participants as possible, we will not
21     ask any questions, unless we need clarification.
22  910                  At the end of this session,
23     representatives from the local CBC stations will have a
24     chance to offer their views, as they are naturally very
25     interested by the issues we are discussing here, today.


 1  911                  Before we start, I would ask our
 2     legal counsel to go over some of the housekeeping
 3     matters regarding the conduct of this consultation.
 4  912                  MS VOGEL:  Thank you, Commissioner
 5     Grauer.
 6  913                  I will be calling the participants in
 7     the order in which they registered to participate.  If
 8     parties aren't here when I first call, I will be
 9     recalling from time to time throughout the evening so
10     there is no risk of turning up and not being heard.
11  914                  If you are here as an observer and
12     you decide that you want to make some comments, we have
13     comment sheets on the back table right there, where
14     that piece of machinery is.  Please feel free to take
15     one of those, fill it in and hand it in to me any time
16     during the evening.  Your comments will become part of
17     this process, as well as the oral comments that we will
18     be hearing.
19  915                  We would ask you when you are
20     beginning to speak to hit the white button on the
21     microphone, and a red light will come on in the red
22     circle and that will activate the sound system.
23  916                  We have court reporters here, to my
24     right at the rear, and there will be a verbatim
25     transcript come out of this part of the hearing.  It


 1     will also become part of record.  If you are interested
 2     in obtaining a copy of that transcript, please approach
 3     the court reporter and she will be able to tell you how
 4     you can obtain one of the transcripts.
 5  917                  If any of the presenters have any
 6     speaking notes that they would want the Commission to
 7     have, please bring them over to me, at your
 8     convenience, and those again will become part of the
 9     record.
10  918                  I would now invite Mr. Sean O'Connell
11     to come and make his presentation.
13  919                  MR. SEAN O'CONNELL:  You have my
14     congratulations.  You must have been working very hard
15     recently.
16  920                  As you can probably tell I am not
17     from around these parts.  I was weaned on the BBC --
18     the "beeb" as it is called.  I have had a lifelong
19     admiration for devotion to public service broadcasting. 
20     Ever since I was a young kid, I can remember listening
21     to the radio, particularly with my dad listening to the
22     cricket, and the various excellent programs which the
23     Radio Four, as it was in those days -- it was called
24     the home service, but now it is called Radio Four,
25     these jazzy times.  It had all sorts of excellent,


 1     excellent programs which you couldn't possibly get on
 2     any commercial broadcaster because they don't make
 3     money.
 4  921                  With the exception of the U.S.A.,
 5     every significant civilized society has some form of
 6     public broadcaster, charged with the Rathian principles
 7     to inform, to educate and to entertain.  It is
 8     important to remember the form of words because those
 9     are the successive priorities which organizations like
10     Radio Telivisairan (ph) and the BBC, Australian
11     Broadcasting and so on, adopt.  It is important to
12     bring people information, to educate them, and only
13     latterly to entertain, if you have got any spare time. 
14     Of course, if you can roll all three together, so much
15     the better.
16  922                  It is only in the U.S.A., without a
17     national public service broadcaster, do we find the
18     chaotic patchy network of a really gruesome pride of
19     initiatives, really appallingly bad, and a largely
20     uninformed and bellicose population, with little or no
21     knowledge of what goes on outside their national -- or
22     even outside their state -- borders.  Do you know only
23     one person in ten in the United States actually owns a
24     passport, as opposed to something like two-thirds of
25     the all Canadians?


 1  923                  Now, you have got to ask yourself why
 2     this is.  Are Americans different genetically from
 3     every other human being ever born?  No, I don't think
 4     so.  I think it is to do with the fact that they don't
 5     really have a national identity, and a national
 6     identity is a function of your education system, and a
 7     post-education system which is inevitably your national
 8     broadcaster.
 9  924                  It is my contention that PBS keeps
10     the private guys honest.  Because it is answerable to
11     the people rather than to advertisers, or power drunk
12     megalomaniac owners, or even politicians God help us,
13     and it is with a narrow part of honesty, balance and
14     verisimilitude.  The very largest thing the PBS can
15     afford is their cheap sleazy diet of vox pop scare
16     crime schlock and sex which permeates the private
17     broadcasters scene to maximize their return for every
18     buck spent.
19  925                  My contention is that public
20     broadcasting is not a business; it is a social service,
21     every bit as important to the well-being of a society
22     as a transportation infrastructure, the health service
23     or a police force.
24  926                  Without these essential ingredients
25     to the well-being of the body politic, the PBS must be


 1     divorced from the tentacles of government.  It should
 2     be funded independently of political control.  Its
 3     staff appointments should be made on the basis of
 4     skills and competency rather than the cancerous
 5     patronage which infects so much of Canadian society. 
 6     Its programming should be driven by those Rathian
 7     principles I mentioned before.
 8  927                  It is the duty of the CBC to nurture
 9     and develop homegrown talent for, if the CBC doesn't,
10     no commercial organization will.  There will be no
11     incentive for it to do so.
12  928                  I think the current CBC technicians'
13     dispute and the forthcoming journalists' strike
14     underline the importance of a decently paid and
15     independent PBS.  When the CBC isn't around, the
16     private enterprise media goes to the dogs.  We have
17     seen it particularly here in Vancouver, as I am sure
18     you know.  It is incapable of ever distinguishing its
19     only political motivation from its reportage of current
20     events.  They mix them all up.  You can't tell what is
21     fact and what is op-ed.  It is highly parochial.  They
22     don't want to spend money on anything that is outside
23     of a quarter of an hour's drive of the head offices. 
24     It is incapable of standing back and giving a broader,
25     deeper analysis of events.  It doesn't have the quality


 1     of staff to be able to do that.
 2  929                  I can give you some examples.  I
 3     collect these things actually.  We had the recent
 4     highly biased and invasive coverage of Glen Clark's
 5     run-in with the local police, which is all highly
 6     suspicious.  The only people who didn't join in this
 7     melee, as far as I could see, were the CBC, and you
 8     might think that I have left leaning sympathies.  Well,
 9     actually, I don't know whether you call it left
10     leaning, but I am a fully paid up member of the
11     Conservative Party.
12  930                  We had something which made my hair
13     stand on end, was it yesterday or the day before, there
14     was the claim on CTV and on our local radio station
15     here, that the European Commission is a huge
16     bureaucracy.  This is a gross calumny, repeated, I
17     might add, by Peter Mansbridge last night, for this I
18     am going to find it very difficult to ever forgive him. 
19     Such a huge bureaucracy.  I have worked -- I know
20     Brussels and Luxembourg very well.  There is 25,000
21     people on the payroll.  That is the total sum of the
22     European bureaucracy.  Twenty-five thousand.  It is
23     much smaller than, say, British Columbia's civil
24     service.  It is smaller than the U.K. government's
25     Scottish office.  So it is not a huge bureaucracy,


 1     although people like to paint it as such.
 2  931                  CKNW not so long ago, they had a
 3     scientist on, I don't know who this scientist was, but
 4     he claimed that we all have souls, not those things on
 5     the bottom of our feet, but you know these things that
 6     are immortal.  Do you know this scientist had proved
 7     conclusively that our soul weighed three-quarters of an
 8     ounce?  Yes, it is true, this is a scientist, it must
 9     be true it was on the radio.
10  932                  And then we get the -- on AM 1040 we
11     get the marketing of quack medicine and what have you
12     all the time.  They have some incredible and highly
13     dangerous claims being made for these potions that have
14     no proven clinical effectiveness.  For example, they
15     are marketing homeopathic products all the time. 
16     Homeopathic products won't do you any harm, I mean
17     there is nothing in there to do you any harm.  They
18     don't do any good either, apart from make your pocket
19     lighter.
20  933                  But there is no such thing as balance
21     or accountability by regular medical practitioners on
22     these programs.
23  934                  And then we have in the night time
24     people like Art Bell.  I don't know if you have ever
25     run across this guy, he is -- the nicest thing you can


 1     say about him is he is just off his rocker, but he has
 2     a program in the small hours of the morning which has a
 3     pretty good following, and he is always going on about
 4     these conspiracies, you know governments are conspiring
 5     against everybody to cover up all sorts of things.  If
 6     they can't conspire properly to cover up Monica
 7     Lewinsky and things how can they possibly ever hope to
 8     cover up alien innovations? It just doesn't make any
 9     sense.  The sheer incredibility of these people's views
10     is never exposed to any kind of challenge.  Yet, we get
11     this every night with no attempt at all of giving any
12     kind of balance or reasoned commentary on it.
13  935                  This is why I think the Americans are
14     so loony because they get all this highly one-sided
15     propaganda, which is what it really is, aimed at them
16     all the time and they just take it on faith.
17  936                  I could go on for hours about this
18     sort of thing, but I won't.
19  937                  What I would like to do is to finish
20     you with one little point, a little anecdote from my
21     history.  Some years ago, 20 years ago now, I started
22     working in Luxembourg and -- Luxembourg is a funny
23     little country, in the triangle of Belgium, France and
24     Germany, and it is an undiscovered secret.  They are
25     keeping it quiet.  They don't want anybody from our way


 1     in case everybody comes there and wants to live.  It is
 2     a wonderful place.
 3  938                  Any way, at the time I was starting
 4     working there for Euro Stat, the European statistical
 5     office, I was also listening to the Rath lectures which
 6     that year was being given by Steve Jones on genetics.
 7  939                  About halfway through them, when I
 8     started working there, I tried to pick up the BBC
 9     signal, Radio Four, on the long wave.  You don't have
10     long wave here for some reason.  I have no idea why. 
11     There is all this spare wavelength going to waste.  I
12     understand that it is supposed to be allocated for
13     ship-to-shore transmissions, but I have never -- I have
14     got several long wave radios and I have never heard
15     anything on it apart from harmonics of AM radio station
16     on the medium wave, what I call medium wave, what you
17     call AM.
18  940                  So, it is unused but it is a great
19     facility to have particularly for digital broadcasting. 
20     Any way, I will pass over that one.
21  941                  The point is I was trying to listen
22     to this and I was getting the signal and the only way I
23     could get it was by going outside the building in which
24     -- the hotel I was living in and listening to it out in
25     the open, that way I could get a clear signal because


 1     it is 350 miles from where I was, about 350 miles from
 2     Rugby, so I got on to the BBC technical department and
 3     said to them, "Is there any way I can improve my
 4     reception?"  They said, "Well, not really.  It is not
 5     really -- the signal is not supposed to go that far. 
 6     Any way, but if you can get it, fine."  I said, "Do you
 7     have any ideas how I might improve it?"  They said,
 8     "Yes, you can improve it by using an induction loop
 9     antenna."  I asked, "What is an induction loop
10     antenna?"  I was told, "We don't make them, we don't
11     know anybody who does apart from this strange character
12     who lives in rural Wales."  So they gave me his phone
13     number, and I phoned him up.
14  942                  Any way, to cut a long story short, I
15     got one of these things, they look like Hula Hoop,
16     daglo orange or whatever, you know, plastic Hula Hoop
17     with a particular length of antenna in side and coupled
18     up to little transfusers, and that is it.  It simply
19     magnifies your radio signal.  It works like a dream. 
20     It is highly directional so you have to point it in the
21     direction you are getting the signal from and move it
22     around and suddenly, boom, you get a wonderful signal.
23  943                  So, I told all my friends about this
24     and they were wanting to buy this thing for listening
25     to specifically Radio Four I might add.  So I thought I


 1     will sell them for -- to these guys.  So I got into a
 2     deal and I was ordering these Hula Hoops, which gave me
 3     all sorts of odd looks when I went to collect them from
 4     customs, you know, what is this guy doing, try to
 5     explain to them but I don't think -- I think they
 6     thought I was just a nut.
 7  944                  Any way, to cut a long story short,
 8     in the two years that I was there I must have sold
 9     about 250 of them to Brits, to Italians, Spaniards,
10     Danes, you name it.  The only people I didn't sell them
11     to were the French, the Belgians and the Germans
12     because they had their own transmitters there.
13  945                  Now, the very interesting part about
14     this little anecdote is that of the 250 that I sold I
15     did not sell one for a commercial station.  Everybody
16     wanted to listen to the home public broadcasting
17     provider with these things.  That is all they wanted. 
18     Nobody was interested in commercial radio.  Everybody
19     in Luxembourg wanted to hear their home news from
20     abroad.
21  946                  That is all I want to say.  Thanks.
22  947                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
23  948                  MS VOGEL:  Our next presenter this
24     evening is Clive Court.


 1  949                  MR. CLIVE COURT:  Good evening.  I
 2     would like to thank you for this opportunity to make a
 3     few comments in support of the licence renewal for CBC
 4     radio and television.
 5  950                  I came to Canada in 1974 with a new
 6     masters degree in broadcasting and about a decade of
 7     experience in public and commercial television in
 8     Britain, Australia, New Zealand and the United States.
 9  951                  The first thing I began to notice
10     about broadcasting in Canada was, with the exception of
11     CBC radio, management seemed to be working against the
12     development of our own talent.  This was not the case
13     in other countries where I had previously worked in
14     television.
15  952                  There also appeared to be what I
16     might call a power attitude among TV network management
17     which was disrespectful toward Canadian talent unless
18     they happened to be journalists; and of course the
19     journalists had their own power system, all their
20     associates in the print media.
21  953                  The prevailing attitude at that time
22     appeared to be unless you were a journalist we have
23     really got no time for you on our networks.  So it is
24     hardly surprising that Canada has had a continuing
25     talent drain to the United States and Britain.


 1  954                  Even today, after 15 years of
 2     Telefilm funding, it is difficult for the average
 3     Canadian to name more than a couple of our entertainers
 4     who have become major stars by appearing on Canadian
 5     television.  It took Steve Smith and the "Royal
 6     Canadian Air Farce" a long, long time, and I think we
 7     missed Jim Carey altogether.
 8  955                  Yes, you made me stretch to come up
 9     with more than a few names who are not journalists,
10     news readers, recording artists or program hosts.
11  956                  I believe that CBC radio has done an
12     excellent job in nurturing Canadian talent over the
13     past two decades, writers, singers, musicians, actors
14     and comedians, and they need more funding to continue
15     this nurturing role.
16  957                  CBC television is a different kettle
17     of fish.  For years, it was managed by people with too
18     little academic, entertainment, management or
19     international broadcasting experience.  Too many
20     journalists cluttered the management structure, pouring
21     more and more money into what the late Jack Crane once
22     called the black hole of news and current affairs.
23  958                  No one really seemed to understand
24     what public broadcasting was about.  At that time, they
25     seemed to believe that news, current affairs,


 1     information programming and documentaries were the most
 2     important part of public broadcasting, and we had the
 3     current affairs approach to everything, including drama
 4     and children's programming.  Under Peter Herndorf (ph),
 5     we even had journalists hosting variety shows and
 6     writing sit-coms.
 7  959                  (Inaudible) eventually put a stop to
 8     that and began to hire some real entertainment talent. 
 9     No wonder the current affairs staff are campaigning to
10     get Herndorf back as president.  The word
11     "entertainment" is not exactly in their vocabulary.
12  960                  There used to be this feeling that
13     the CBC's mandate was a journalistic one, and they felt
14     it was comprised by promoting unity.  So they
15     campaigned to get that dropped from the new
16     Broadcasting Act.  I would argue that the CBC's mandate
17     is a public relations one, to build understanding
18     between the different regions of Canada and, more
19     importantly, to nurture the country's talent.
20  961                  Until CBC television moved to its
21     all-Canadian schedule, the news and current affairs
22     people used to use American shows to deliver a high
23     rating to the beginning of their information programs. 
24     This is why in Vancouver you still see the Simpsons
25     being used as a lead in to their broadcast one


 1     newscast. Unfortunately, it makes me and many others in
 2     B.C. switch to BCTV's news.  The CBC probably don't
 3     really understand the principles of audience
 4     reinforcement.
 5  962                  Now that most of the U.S. shows have
 6     been replaced by Canadian comedy and drama, this means
 7     there is more room for developing and promoting
 8     Canadian talent, and the CBC has discovered a growing
 9     audience for Canadian comedy, which now brings them
10     higher ratings than drama, news, current affairs and,
11     yes, even hockey.  At least we are now developing
12     entertainers at the CBC.
13  963                  However, I have noticed that this
14     entertainment development and promotion at the CBC, and
15     in Canada generally, is biased against visual
16     performers who are not actors or comedians.  For
17     example, in the past decade, probably inspired by Doug
18     Henning in the '70s, three Canadian magicians have won
19     world championships:  Carl Clouthier, Greg Frewin, and
20     Julie Anna Chan, and they appear on TV specials around
21     the world.
22  964                  Internationally, Canada has become
23     famous for the high performance quality of its circus
24     artists, and of course I am talking about the Cirque du
25     Soleil.


 1  965                  In late November on an NBC TV
 2     special, "The World's Greatest Magic", with three
 3     Canadian magicians, achieved a slightly higher rating
 4     than the CBC's imported dance special, Michael Flatley,
 5     "Feet of Flames", for which they claimed an audience of
 6     1.5 million.
 7  966                  In recent years, dance specials like
 8     River Dance, have been securing very high ratings for
 9     CBC television, and it is obvious that Canadian
10     audiences enjoy TV specials with strong dynamic visual
11     performances like comedy, dancing, skating and magic.
12  967                  While Doug Henning did not make that
13     much impact on Canadian TV production because most of
14     his specials came from NBC Television, he was widely
15     respected in the United States for bringing magic back
16     to Broadway and to network television in the '70s. 
17     Henning retired about a decade ago, but rumours
18     indicate he was recently offered a $30 million contract
19     to come out of retirement, and that would be Las Vegas,
20     I presume, certainly not the CBC.
21  968                  I believe that CBC radio and
22     television must continue the mandate to nurture
23     Canadian talent, especially non-musical visual
24     performers.  So why privatize the CBC?  Do you really
25     know anyone in the private sector who wants to spend


 1     any money producing prime time quality programs with
 2     Canadian entertainers.  To be able to produce
 3     first-class Canadian TV specials which will attract
 4     large audiences in Canada and big sales around the
 5     world requires expert marketing skills, which are
 6     generally lacking in Canada's broadcasting sector.  Mr.
 7     Asper's bid for a fifth channel licence in Britain must
 8     have really been quite hilarious because he could not
 9     demonstrate any previous commitment to quality TV
10     production in Canada.  He could have saved a lot of
11     time and money with a little historical research, for
12     most of the Canadians, who moved to Britain in the late
13     '50s, can produce excellent drama and variety for
14     television, but that was before the rot set in here,
15     before the Americans brainwashed us into believing that
16     we should concentrate on news, current affairs and arts
17     programming and leave the entertainment to them -- what
18     a deal!
19  969                  Looking back at the last winter
20     Olympics, Canadians won more medals than the United
21     States, but most of our medal winners were relatively
22     unknown to Canadian viewers.  The same is true of our
23     world-class entertainers.
24  970                  Why don't we know who our world-class
25     athletes are?  It is because our broadcasting industry


 1     is biased towards American professional sports and
 2     these people are more concerned with entertainment
 3     values, filling seats in arenas and television ratings,
 4     not in winning international championships for Canada.
 5  971                  Likewise, Canadian broadcasting is
 6     more geared to promoting movies and CD sales than in
 7     promoting visual performers who do not make their
 8     living from CD sales or movies.  So I would ask the
 9     Commission to encourage and support the CBC's mandate
10     to nurture Canada's visual entertainers and help export
11     that talent around the world.  I would also ask that
12     both CBC radio and television be encouraged to place
13     more emphasis on the development of a greater variety
14     of Canada's non-musical visual performers.
15  972                  To accomplish this goal, I would
16     recommend that the CBC be granted a sports channel, a
17     Sportsworld, if you will, to carry all that
18     professional sports coverage which earns a major
19     portion of their annual advertising revenue.
20  973                  I would also like to recommend that
21     the CBC transfer most of their TV current affairs and
22     information programming from their main network to
23     "Newsworld".  Moving all current affairs and
24     information programming to "Newsworld", and all
25     professional sports coverage to Sportsworld, would free


 1     up more time on the CBC's main network for the
 2     development of more Canadian drama, comedy, arts, music
 3     and variety programming.
 4  974                  Should CBC television be unwilling to
 5     make a commitment to develop more programming featuring
 6     Canada's visual entertainers, I would recommend that
 7     the Commission seriously consider granting a variety
 8     entertainment channel to the Cirque du Soleil so they
 9     can develop the programs for sale around the world.
10  975                  Thank you very much.
11     --- Applause / Applaudissements
12  976                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
13     Court.
14  977                  MS VOGEL:  Our next presenter this
15     evening is Linda Stedfield.
17  978                  MS LINDA STEDFIELD:  Good evening. 
18     My name is Linda Stedfield and I come as a private
19     citizen, although I have many interests.  But I am
20     coming to speak as myself, but I believe that my words
21     are shared by thousands of Canadians all across this
22     country.
23  979                  I came to Canada in the early 1980s
24     from the United States.  I would say, like a majority
25     of Americans, I knew very little about Canada,


 1     virtually nothing.  If there is any one thing that I
 2     can point to that has made me feel like a part of this
 3     country and has just educated me in so many different
 4     ways about this country, I would say it is CBC.
 5  980                  Sometimes I liken my listening to CBC
 6     throughout the years consistently as sort of a college
 7     education to me.  But a college education that is
 8     really maybe in the more renaissance sort of sense,
 9     very well rounded, consisting of information that can
10     ran the gamut from A to Z, it could be about anything.
11  981                  I believe that every nation on this
12     earth needs a non-commercial broadcaster and a
13     non-commercial voice.  I grew up in what we could call
14     one of the hotbeds of commercialism, southern
15     California.  Tongue in cheek, somehow I survived that
16     experience, but it is not because I was given what I
17     would consider worthwhile culture information to grow
18     up on.  Au contraire, I think that commercial interests
19     will just never have at heart some of the things that
20     have been talked about already here today, such as
21     promoting talent, giving people who haven't already
22     made it a chance.  Everybody needs that chance.
23  982                  I am sure it has been said all day
24     long today how all the Canadian writers, all the
25     different peoples that have been given a voice through


 1     CBC, that would not happen on commercial channels.  It
 2     just wouldn't because it doesn't sell.
 3  983                  Once again, I think it is totally
 4     vital that Canada -- the Canadian government I think
 5     actually is not doing its job in funding the CBC
 6     properly.  I think that is a really important thing for
 7     this government.  I think it has got to be up to the
 8     CRTC or individual citizens to make the government
 9     listen that CBC must be funded.  They have got a job to
10     do.  I think the people who work on CBC radio and
11     television represent some of the best of what we have
12     to offer in Canada.  It is not easy to make intelligent
13     programming either for radio or television, it is not
14     easy at all.  It takes a lot.  I think those people
15     deserve to have adequate funding to do that job.
16  984                  I am sure it has been said all day
17     long, too, CBC ties this country together.  It really
18     does.  Where else can you turn it on and listen to
19     someone speaking to you from the Northwest Territories
20     and in two minutes somebody else is speaking from
21     Halifax, and then in a few more minutes it is someone
22     out on the West Coast of Vancouver Island?  Where else
23     can we get this sort of information?
24  985                  I primarily have listened a lot to
25     radio.  I don't watch a whole lot of television.  But,


 1     again, I think Canadian content has got to be at the
 2     fore of the television and the radio.
 3  986                  I am not sure what else to say other
 4     than I just think it is totally vital.  I know my life
 5     would be totally different if I hadn't had CBC to
 6     listen to, experience, watch, the 17 years I have lived
 7     in Canada.  My life would be so much poorer, I can
 8     hardly put it into words.  It is the one thing that has
 9     really grounded me here in this country.
10  987                  I don't think the supposed "new world
11     order" the suppose the -- you know, the trade
12     agreements we have gone into with the United States --
13     all of that, that sort of thing, it is not a given.  If
14     we have a government that won't stand up and won't
15     stand up for Canada, and won't stand up against some of
16     those kind of interests, then citizens better vote them
17     out or do something about it because this new world
18     order supposedly dictation by, you know, a certain few
19     is not a given, it is a construct that is being
20     imposed.  I think Canadians do have an identity.  You
21     hear it bandied about by people born in Canada, which I
22     was not, but people born in Canada saying, "Canadians
23     don't have an identity."  I don't agree with that at
24     all.  It is a large identity.  Just like in the United
25     States, there is no one identity.  When you get a


 1     nation that is filled with people that have been born,
 2     or their grandparents have been born from all over this
 3     world, the identity is going to be very large.  You
 4     can't summarize it in one sentence.  Of course
 5     Canadians have an identity, and an identity worth
 6     keeping, an identity worth keeping separate from the
 7     United States also.
 8  988                  I am not an American basher, but the
 9     United States has its place, as does Canada.
10  989                  So, I am going to thank you very much
11     for listening, and I think we must save, support and
12     adequately fund the CBC.  It is a total priority. 
13     Thank you.
14     --- Applause / Applaudissements
15  990                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
16     Stedfield.
17  991                  MS VOGEL:  Our next presenter is
18     Maria Hackett.
20  992                  MS MARIA HACKETT:  Thank you very
21     much.  For the past 20 years, I have been a regular CBC
22     radio listener.  The CBC AM service has seen me through
23     two cross country moves and nearly 16 years as a
24     stay-at-home mother of two.
25  993                  The broad exposure to current affairs


 1     and arts provided by the AM service is not duplicated
 2     by any other broadcaster available in my community. 
 3     This might not be remarkable when you take into account
 4     that I live in a town of 15,000 people with one radio
 5     station and a single independent cable station, but it
 6     was equally true when I lived in metropolitan Toronto
 7     or Vancouver.
 8  994                  I look to the CBC AM for my
 9     connection with the world, through programs such as
10     "Morningside" and "This Morning", "As It Happens", and
11     "Ideas", I have kept up to date with events not only in
12     my own community but across the country and out into
13     the rest of the world.
14  995                  Equally important is the knowledge
15     that many of my friends and relations are hearing the
16     same programs in their homes scattered across the
17     country.  We share a common thread that no private
18     radio network offers.
19  996                  As a national broadcaster, CBC tends
20     to be very Ontario-centric, particularly lately.  This
21     was irritating even when I lived there, but it is most
22     certainly galling to those of us who live outside of
23     the golden horseshoe.  While this Ontario bias runs the
24     gamut of CBC services, it is somewhat less prevalent on
25     the AM radio network.


 1  997                  I would like to see the CBC place a
 2     stronger emphasis on local and regional programming as
 3     it enters the new millennium.  The funding reductions
 4     imposed by the federal government have hamstrung our
 5     national public broadcaster to an extent that has
 6     become glaringly apparent in the last couple of years. 
 7     The declining quality of our new production, as well as
 8     the increase in repeat broadcasts, are becoming much
 9     more obvious to the regular listener.
10  998                  The regional programming provided by
11     CBC radio has suffered the most through the last few
12     years.  Regional shows have little travel budget to
13     provide remote broadcasts when it would be appropriate
14     and cutbacks in local sports departments and local
15     journalists mean local issues are often not discussed,
16     or the expert consulted is someone from Toronto or the
17     U.S.
18  999                  While the CBC most definitely needs
19     to be fiscally responsible, adequate funding is
20     necessary, and my family, for one, is prepared to pay
21     more to support the service we want to see.  I consider
22     the CBC to be another educational tool.  My children,
23     now 12 and 15, have a strong understanding of Canadian
24     politics, geography, issues and views as a result of
25     being steeped in the CBC for all of their lives.


 1  1000                 They both choose to watch CBC
 2     television comedy on a regular basis and each has their
 3     favourite CBC radio program.
 4  1001                 The CBC should have the opportunity
 5     to present radio and television that is independent of
 6     advertiser and government control and free to provide a
 7     balance of views and opinions.  It gives me great joy
 8     to see the apparent freedom enjoyed by programs such as
 9     "This Hour Has 22 Minutes" and the "Royal Canadian Air
10     Farce".
11  1002                 The CBC radio also enjoys the freedom
12     to present a broad variety of information and
13     entertainment which might not be commercial in nature
14     and might not fit into a single format as preferred by
15     private broadcasters who seem to feel that all
16     listeners have a single point of view and a single
17     musical interest.  That is what makes the CBC special
18     to its listeners.  We want to hear a little of
19     everything.  If we hear a broad diversity of
20     viewpoints, musical styles and written work, we are
21     able to understand and embrace that broad diversity.
22  1003                 Thank you very much.
23     --- Applause / Applaudissements
24  1004                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
25     Hackett.


 1  1005                 MS VOGEL:  I would invite Nigel Peck
 2     to present next, please.
 3  1006                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I wonder if we
 4     might ask any of the other presenters who are in the
 5     audience to come to the table and sit at a mike to be
 6     ready.
 7  1007                 MS VOGEL:  Mr. Peers, are you at a
 8     table?  Could you come to a mike, please?
 9  1008                 Is Noni Mate in the room?
10  1009                 Thank you.
12  1010                 MR. NIGEL PECK:  My name is Nigel
13     Peck and I would like to make a couple of comments
14     about the radio which is what I know the best.  I don't
15     know TV that much.
16  1011                 I guess the things that I look for
17     the CBC and what gives value to me is the connection
18     that it allows between Canadians in a huge country that
19     otherwise you would have no sense of how people are
20     living in other parts of the country.  Having the
21     programming I get a taste of Newfoundland or southern
22     Ontario, or anywhere else in the country, is one of the
23     main things that makes me feel a Canadian, makes me
24     want to be a part of this country.
25  1012                 It is also really important for me to


 1     get the news and the current events, whether it is on a
 2     regional or a national or an international scale.  I
 3     work a lot.  I don't have a lot of free time and being
 4     able to listen to the radio allows me to at least have
 5     a starting point where I can have informed decisions
 6     about what is important in our lives.  I think without
 7     CBC radio I would be a lot poorer, and I think the
 8     population generally would be a lot poorer.
 9  1013                 I guess in the last three years, that
10     is something that I have seen suffer with the cutbacks. 
11     There is not the amount of regional content that there
12     should be.  There is a lot more stuff coming out of
13     Toronto so you just get the centre-of-the-universe
14     viewpoint.  There isn't the depth of reporting where
15     you get a feeling that they know what the issues behind
16     the stories that are happening, so you get context, and
17     I think having that context is incredibly important
18     because if you don't know what is going on behind, you
19     are just getting superficial news and you don't have
20     the ability to make decisions or to know what is going
21     on.
22  1014                 I think it comes down to funding in a
23     lot of cases.  The CBC has got to have the funding to
24     be able to put the resources into the reporting and the
25     coverage, local, international and what not.


 1  1015                 I guess this isn't a programming
 2     issue, but in the board of directors and the president,
 3     the fact that they should be championing the CBC more
 4     and standing up for it, I don't get the impression that
 5     they are.  Maybe that is -- I don't see what is going
 6     on.  But I don't get the feeling that they are fighting
 7     for the CBC the way a lot of the people in different
 8     parts of the country are.
 9  1016                 I guess the one other thing I would
10     like to say for the new millennium is that the
11     individuality -- I am not sure what the right word is
12     -- but the fact that the CBC has got to continue to be
13     independent.  If I don't have the sense that the
14     reporters and the coverage is fair and is impartial and
15     that they have the freedom to follow stories, then at
16     that point it doesn't have any value.  I am not sure if
17     it was accurate, there was a report in the Globe and
18     Mail stating that there was a move to try and put all
19     of the current events and news under the -- under one
20     area, rather than having four separate divisions
21     between English and French news and radio.  I just
22     think it is so important to keep it separate so that
23     there is no chance at all that you are having control
24     from political forces, whether it is through the board
25     of directors, through a president appointed by the


 1     Prime Minister, or other means.
 2  1017                 I think the CBC is incredibly
 3     valuable to Canada.  I think it helps Canada remain
 4     distinct from the United States.  I think it supports
 5     all the other values that we cherish.  If it is not
 6     supported, then I think we will see all those other
 7     things starting to slip away and you will see it little
 8     by little so you don't notice it until you realize it
 9     is gone.
10  1018                 Thank you.
11     --- Applause / Applaudissements
12  1019                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
13     Peck.
14  1020                 MS VOGEL:  Next we have Digby Peers.
16  1021                 MR. DIGBY PEERS:  I just got over a
17     bout of a number of things and my voice is not quite
18     the way it might be.
19  1022                 My name is Digby Peers.  I am
20     Canadian.  I have lived 22 years in the Province of
21     Quebec; 23 years in the Province of Ontario; and 23
22     years in British Columbia, including when I was very
23     young; and two years in other countries in the world,
24     including Africa, South America, England, Australia.
25  1023                 Sheila Copps is quoted as saying that


 1     one of the benefits of having a public broadcaster like
 2     the CBC is that it can cater to a higher ethic, that it
 3     need not be driven by the lowest common denominator in
 4     order to receive the highest rate of financial return,
 5     which is what commercial television ratings are all
 6     about.
 7  1024                 Professor Catherine McKercher of
 8     Ottawa's Carleton University Department of Journalism
 9     was quoted in the Wednesday, February 24th edition of
10     the National Post as saying that those who fund the CBC
11     are no longer exactly sure of what it is they want by
12     the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.
13  1025                 She goes on to say that there is some
14     drift about what the CBC should be doing.
15  1026                 Lawrence Martin, a writer and
16     journalist, stated in the March 4th edition of the
17     Vancouver Sun that it is time for the CBC and the
18     federal Liberals to bury the hatchet, implying that the
19     vanities and egos of both should be held immediately
20     for the sake of all Canadians.
21  1027                 Just one more quote.  BCTV's Chief
22     Executive Officer Art Reitmeir himself stated in a
23     Wednesday February 24th edition of the National Post
24     that the CBC is not alone in the need to rethink its
25     position.  The whole of the North American broadcast


 1     industry is being buffeted by intense change.
 2  1028                 There is obviously a lot of work to
 3     be done to repair the damage, restore the CBC to a
 4     position of respect by the mandarins of the civil
 5     service in Ottawa, the governing Liberals and those
 6     hundreds of thousands of us ordinary Canadians who
 7     believe, as Daryl Duke stated in the March 13th edition
 8     of the Vancouver Sun, that with all its warts, the CBC
 9     is one of the finest public broadcasters in the world
10     and yet it is in a critical state.  It is in need of
11     renewed self-confidence of the '50s, '60s, and '70s. 
12     It is in need, perhaps, of a restructuring from top to
13     bottom and in need of the resources to acquire and
14     maintain facilities, producers and talent on a regional
15     basis to produce programs that will inform Canadians in
16     this vast country about each other.
17  1029                 My name is Digby Peers, again, and,
18     yes, I was a staff radio producer from 1959 to 1983 in
19     features in humanities and I have been an avid observer
20     of the CBC for more than 45 years and of the radio and
21     television stations public and commercial.
22  1030                 Yes, I was seconded to the BBC to
23     work for a year in London, England in 1968 to produce a
24     series of dramas entitled, "World History", and I have
25     organized co-productions on national public radio.  In


 1     the United States, perhaps the most noteworthy was the
 2     great opera Louis Riel by the recently deceased Harry
 3     Summers, and I have produced series for the Australian
 4     Broadcasting Corporation.
 5  1031                 That is my little preface to what I
 6     want -- the points I want to make about the CBC and how
 7     I think it could be improved.  I could go on for some
 8     time on what might be done.  I am only going to make
 9     three points and then I am going to finish.  It is
10     really quite simple.
11  1032                 The first one is this, which was
12     alluded to by the previous speaker, if the top managers
13     at the CBC are not willing or do not have the ability
14     to stand up and fight for public broadcasting
15     effectively, they should resign.
16  1033                 Two, to keep the CBC from becoming
17     irrelevant, we need strong production centres in the
18     regions to inform Canadians about each other in this so
19     vast and rapidly changing country; and, yes, let's hear
20     some new voices at the CBC.
21  1034                 Finally, without a much improved
22     process of choosing a president of the CBC, whose
23     dedication, whose leadership and whose experience
24     permeates and inspires CBC staff at every level across
25     the country, the CBC will struggle unfairly to do its


 1     job.
 2  1035                 Thank you.
 3     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 4  1036                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 5     Peers.
 6  1037                 MS VOGEL:  The next presenter is Olga
 7     Kempo.
 9  1038                 MS OLGA KEMPO:  First of all, I
10     appreciate this opportunity to speak to you about the
11     CBC.
12  1039                 Since the strike has been on, it has
13     brought home to me how precious the CBC is to me.  It
14     is my link to my community, my country and via our
15     foreign correspondents to the world.
16  1040                 I have just jotted down some of my
17     views on programming and operations that I would like
18     to share with you tonight.
19  1041                 I would like a non-commercial
20     broadcasting system in both radio and television
21     maintained in the case of radio and re-established in
22     the case of television.  Somehow I would like to arrest
23     or stop the cancer of corporate capitalism on my public
24     airwaves.
25  1042                 What is special to me about the CBC


 1     is the fact that it is non-commercial, the fact that
 2     it, hopefully, is independent from political
 3     interference and the arm's length I want maintained
 4     especially since I hear that, perhaps, the VPs are
 5     going to be moved to Ottawa.  I would suggest that they
 6     come to Vancouver.  I would like it independent from
 7     any commercial bias.
 8  1043                 Some of the changes I would like to
 9     see are, perhaps, "Hockey Night in Canada" could be
10     moved to an independent channel, like you have
11     "Newsworld", a specialty channel.  Then we could have
12     more culture, more artistic literary events.  We could
13     have more debates and we could have the kind of forum
14     that we should be having like we had about Quebec, as
15     we should be having about the Nisga'a agreements, the
16     Indian agreements, the aboriginal, those are the kinds
17     of things I would like to see on my public television
18     and hear more of on my public radio.
19  1044                 I would like to see no further
20     dumbing down of the CBC.  I think that the audience
21     will come to CBC if we maintain our standards.  I do
22     not want it to become like any of the commercial
23     stations either television or radio that are out there.
24  1045                 I would like to see eliminated all
25     the half-hour nude news interruptions on radio.  I


 1     think a news broadcast in the morning and a news
 2     broadcast at night is quite sufficient to tell me what
 3     is going on in the world.  I would like the repeats ad
 4     nauseam stopped, and the fact that we hear on the
 5     weekends what we have already heard on the week days on
 6     the radio.
 7  1046                 I would like to eliminate the
 8     mindless American sit-coms that we have on television. 
 9     If we are to import, and I suggest we should import,
10     let us import from around the world.  There is a
11     variety out there rather than just from across the
12     border.
13  1047                 Regional programming is very
14     essential to me.  I like to know what is happening in
15     my community but I also like the cross fertilization of
16     my regional programming and other regional programming
17     so I know what is happening across the country.
18  1048                 I think there is too much feed from
19     American sources.  I want a Canadian vision of the
20     world.  I want more Canadian foreign correspondents and
21     not less stationed in more countries.
22  1049                 It is important for me to have both
23     French and English.  French programming allows me to go
24     into the Francophonie; and the English programming
25     gives me the rest of the world.  They are different


 1     perspectives and they give me something that is really
 2     complete.  If I only had one I would only be seeing the
 3     world with one eye.
 4  1050                 As far as operations, I think a new
 5     president should be appointed immediately.  It is not
 6     healthy to have a board of directors all appointed, I
 7     understand, by Mr. Chrétien, running my CBC.  As far as
 8     funding, and this is my final point, I think that in a
 9     country such as Canada, we can find the money.  This is
10     not a facetious suggestion.  We can begin by
11     eliminating the Senate.  I would prefer to have 102
12     more journalists than 102 senators.
13  1051                 I believe the funds from the Canadian
14     Television Fund should be increased instead of
15     decreased as it has been every year.
16  1052                 CBC must continue to be an
17     independent voice and an independent voice against or
18     counter to the Thompson, Conrad Black monopolies.
19  1053                 And that is it.  I think I made it in
20     10 minutes.
21     --- Applause / Applaudissements
22  1054                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  You did.  Thank
23     you, Dr. Kempo.
24  1055                 MS VOGEL:  Our next presenter is Noni
25     Mate.


 2  1056                 MS NONI MATE:  In making this short
 3     presentation, want to respond to the questions that you
 4     set out wearing two hats, first just as an individual
 5     Canadian who has grown up with the CBC and feels
 6     strongly about its importance to this country; and,
 7     secondly, as a director of communications for a new
 8     media development centre at Simon Fraser University;
 9     and, in that part of my life, I partnered with the CBC
10     on several new media projects for Canadian students. 
11     So I will talk about that after.
12  1057                 The first question you sent out was a
13     question of does the CBC -- how well the CBC fulfils
14     its role as a national public broadcaster?  When I was
15     thinking about this question, I simply looked back at
16     my life and, very simply and not to be maudlin about
17     it, for me the CBC is synonymous with being Canadian. 
18     Growing up here -- I know that people have already
19     echoed -- it has helped to shape my identity.  The CBC
20     has helped me understand this huge country; take an
21     interest in it and look at what makes us different from
22     our neighbours to the south.
23  1058                 My cultural icons have all been
24     introduced to me through the CBC, both in radio and
25     television.  I grew up watching "This Hour Has Seven


 1     Days" and felt proud that it was controversial.  I
 2     watch "The National" in the evening, Peter Gzowski,
 3     Barbara Frum, Allan Maitland were and still are
 4     household words to me and my friends and family.
 5  1059                 Even if I only heard, say, 10 minutes
 6     of "Morningside" on the way to work, I felt connected
 7     to the country.  Those interviews with Trudeau,
 8     Margaret Laurence, Alice Munro, Karen Kain, to name but
 9     a few, made me proud to be Canadian.
10  1060                 And while I have witnessed with
11     dismay the cuts to programming and the cancellation of
12     shows over the years, the role of the CBC as Canada's
13     national voice has still not changed for me.  I listen
14     now to Avril Benoit and Michael Enright.  I look
15     forward to DNTO on Saturdays, sometimes "Cross Country
16     Checkup".
17  1061                 I realize I am concentrating more on
18     radio than on TV, and it is partly because I am not a
19     TV viewer in general.  But I have never missed "This
20     Hour Has 22 Minutes" and I was sorry when the
21     "Newsroom" of about a year ago was cancelled.
22  1062                 Again, I am talking largely about
23     national shows, but I don't want to presume that the
24     CBC isn't equally important to me in terms of serving
25     the public on a regional level, in terms of radio, you


 1     know, Rick Clough, Mark Forsythe, Catherine Gretsinger,
 2     they help me form my day every day.
 3  1063                 I tune into some of the excellent
 4     documentaries produced by our regional TV station here. 
 5     I think, as other people have said, that we need to
 6     have funding to the regional CBC just as much as we do
 7     to "The National".  It is really the mix that makes it
 8     important.
 9  1064                 Now, I am speaking as a woman in my
10     late '40s which possibly begs the question:  Does CBC
11     have any relevance to the younger generation?  I say
12     yes and can only give you a personal example.  My
13     daughter is in her mid-'20s, a law student, and so I
14     started talking to her about this.  She says she is a
15     Canadian nationalist and a CBC fan but what is
16     interesting to me is that her identity was largely
17     formed as a result of spending four years studying in
18     the United States.  She said that she hadn't thought
19     much about being Canadian or about the CBC's role as a
20     voice for Canada but while she was in an American
21     university, she felt starved for Canadian content.  She
22     then realized that for her that content was provided by
23     the CBC.  There is nothing like spending time in the
24     states to start thinking about your differences.
25  1065                 She came home to Vancouver with a


 1     new-found appreciation for the important role the CBC
 2     has played and continues to play in providing quality
 3     programming and connecting Canadians to each other.
 4  1066                 I now want to take a few minutes just
 5     to talk about my experiences in a working relationship
 6     with the CBC as a partner in some community-based
 7     education programs.
 8  1067                 Three years ago, Excite, which is a
 9     new media lab where I work, was contracted to produce a
10     multimedia CD-ROM on the Prime Ministers of Canada. 
11     Naturally, the first place we turned to for content and
12     for partnership was the CBC.  Their support and
13     responsiveness to the project on every level was truly
14     impressive.  As a public broadcaster, they said it was
15     part of their mandate to re-purpose their archival
16     material for Canadian students.  They provided us with
17     researchers to help us access and incorporate CBC's
18     incredible archives, both in radio and in television
19     into the CD-ROM.
20  1068                 For me, listening to Diefenbaker's
21     speeches, watching Trudeau doing his famous pirouette,
22     when I was sitting in the offices there, really brought
23     home the role of the CBC as the chroniclers of our
24     history.
25  1069                 On a regional level, the famous, or


 1     maybe infamous team of "Double Exposure", spent a
 2     delightful morning with us in the studio up at SFU
 3     providing original satire and impersonations of all of
 4     our Prime Ministers.
 5  1070                 I must say that for me this project
 6     was a thrill of a life time for I had the opportunity
 7     to meet all of my icons, working with Knowlton Nash and
 8     Mary Lou Finlay on narration for the CD, discussing
 9     Canada's social history with Patrick Watson, filming
10     Laurier LaPierre, reading a speech by his mentor Sir
11     Wilfrid Laurier and taping Peter Gzowski reminiscing
12     about his interview experiences with many of our former
13     Prime Ministers.  It was fabulous.
14  1071                 Since October, Excite has been
15     involved in an equally exciting project in partnership
16     with the CBC TV here in B.C.  This new project is an
17     Internet media literacy project called New Zone.  New
18     Zone is a gateway to news and publishing on the Web for
19     Canadian students.  It is an innovative Web site with a
20     new angle on journalism in the classroom, promoting
21     critical analysis of current news stories and analysis
22     of broadcast news in general.
23  1072                 Through a partnership with the CBC,
24     students can go to the Web site.  They can view
25     up-to-date news headlines, access actual broadcast news


 1     scripts, along with associated video and audio clips. 
 2     They can search through CBC news archives and link to
 3     other sources on the Internet.
 4  1073                 Using the daily news content provided
 5     by the CBC, students can follow developing news
 6     stories.  They can do their own parallel research,
 7     discuss their work in online forums, and post their own
 8     stories and multimedia presentations on the Web site.
 9  1074                 Through this collaboration with the
10     CBC, New Zone provides a space for youth to publish
11     their articles and take ownership of news content.
12  1075                 I want just to take a moment to give
13     you some idea of the nature of this partnership and
14     really what it says about the CBC here in Vancouver.
15  1076                 In actuality, it was Rae Hall, the
16     regional director of CBC TV who first made contact with
17     excite.  She was looking for some new directions and
18     opportunities for connections and came to see our
19     multimedia centre and to talk about what we were up to. 
20     A real synergy developed from that meeting and Rae took
21     that desire to work together in a new media project
22     that serves the community and pushed it forward into
23     the current collaborative partnership.
24  1077                 The support and excitement doesn't
25     just come from the director.  Producers and journalists


 1     from broadcast one have been enthusiastic and committed
 2     to putting time into this project, as well as providing
 3     us with technical support, access to the news database,
 4     both for local stories and national stories.  They have
 5     helped us refine our concept and have written feature
 6     stories for the Web site outlining behind-the-scenes
 7     information of what a newsroom is really like.
 8  1078                 The journalists are excited about
 9     sharing their knowledge and expertise with students,
10     with the community.  They are willing to go into our
11     participating schools and to contact other regional
12     offices for similar support.
13  1079                 Last week, New Zone's project manager
14     introduced this Web site to participating schools right
15     across the country.  The response was incredible.  The
16     teachers and the students loved the idea and the Web
17     site and already students are contributing articles.
18  1080                 But what is important to note is that
19     the teachers said that their willingness to participate
20     in the project was due in part to the presence of the
21     national broadcaster as a partner.  Most of the
22     teachers said right up front that if we as a multimedia
23     group had partnered with a private broadcaster, they
24     would not have participated.  They are interested in
25     the mandate that the public broadcaster brings to it. 


 1     They are interested in the mix between local and
 2     national stories, which is why they like the
 3     combination of news that is coming on to the site.  I
 4     look forward to this project continuing.
 5  1081                 In closing, I just want to say that
 6     the CBC was first formed to become the voice of
 7     Canadians, partly in response to our powerful
 8     neighbours to the south.  I think that now more than
 9     ever in this multi-channel universe, in the era of free
10     trade, in the privatization of almost every aspect of
11     our culture, we desperately need a public broadcaster,
12     one that is well-funded both regionally and nationally.
13     --- Applause / Applaudissements
14  1082                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms Mate.
15  1083                 MS VOGEL:  Our next presenter is Mr.
16     Michael O'Shea.
18  1084                 MR. MICHAEL O'SHEA:  Thank you.  I
19     would like to start out by saying thank you for
20     allowing me, a citizen, to speak to you on the question
21     of the CBC.  I say "citizen" because I think it is
22     important to acknowledge that, indeed, I am here as a
23     citizen, not as a spokesperson for a special interest
24     group, a funded think-tank, a lobby group or political
25     party.  I am here to tell you what I think and I


 1     appreciate the opportunity.
 2  1085                 This is not easy for me in that it is
 3     not my normal practice to make submissions to this type
 4     of body, or any other type of body for that matter. 
 5     However, I feel so strongly about this matter that when
 6     offered the chance to come here, I couldn't pass it up.
 7  1086                 I have been a devoted listener of CBC
 8     radio AM -- Radio One, if you prefer -- for about 15
 9     years and a not so devoted watcher of CBC TV.
10  1087                 The central point I would like to
11     make here is I believe what the CBC does for me is to
12     make me a more effective and informed citizen than I
13     would be otherwise.  Now, I am sure you have heard over
14     and over again how shows like "Cross Country Checkup",
15     and "This Morning"'s regional reports and political
16     forums, et cetera, regional shows like "Almanac" here
17     in Vancouver, binds us together as Canadians, and I
18     would be quick to add my voice to that chorus.  Let me
19     go a step further and tell you one of my personal
20     experiences.
21  1088                 I would say that a turning point in
22     my journey as a citizen was the 1995 Massey lectures
23     which are presented on the "Ideas" program on CBC Radio
24     One.  That particular lecture featured John Ralston
25     Saul.  I am not making a pitch for him or his ideas. 


 1     You may or may not like his ideas.  You may in fact not
 2     even know who he is.  But the point for me is that this
 3     series of talks got me thinking about my role as a
 4     citizen in a way I never had before, and this I think
 5     is what a public broadcaster is there for, to provide a
 6     space for the free flow of ideas unencumbered by a
 7     commercial imperative.  I don't know where else on the
 8     dial a show like that would have been presented.
 9  1089                 Let me for a minute elaborate on what
10     I mean by a commercial imperative.  First off, a
11     commercial enterprise has to make a profit by selling
12     advertising.  In order to do this, you have to be
13     primarily concerned with ratings.  This means that your
14     programming has to appeal to a large audience and
15     leaves little room for that which is out of the
16     mainstream.  The other aspect of a commercial
17     broadcasting is that it is owned by commercial
18     interests and these are the interests that ultimately
19     will be served.
20  1090                 This is not in and of itself a bad
21     thing, just limiting of what it can be expected to do. 
22     The most effective thing that private broadcasters do
23     is to provide popular entertainment, and that is fine.
24  1091                 I feel that the CBC, particularly the
25     radio side, not only benefits those of us who make use


 1     of it, but also as a benefit to those who don't use it. 
 2     What do I mean by that?
 3  1092                 Well, as I said before, I think that
 4     listening to CBC and using it as forum for expression
 5     makes me a more effective, informed and engaged
 6     citizen, which I then take out into my own sphere of
 7     influence and my own political involvement there by
 8     enriching the level of debate in my own social network. 
 9     This is not to say that my ideas are any better than
10     the next person's.  However, if I am engaged as a
11     participant in civil society, then chances are I will
12     engage others and together we will enrich the political
13     debate.
14  1093                 This is also not to say that the only
15     place that one can become a better citizen is by using
16     the CBC; but it is certainly one, and an important one.
17  1094                 Now, you might argue that there is a
18     lot of phone-in talk shows on commercial radio.  Well,
19     when I look around at the commercial talk radio
20     landscape, I do not see reasoned, thoughtful public
21     debate.  What I see is this one Vancouver talk radio
22     station advertises "talk with attitude" where callers
23     are not much more than fodder for the host to hang up
24     on.  Again, what they are there for is ratings and the
25     way to get these ratings is to create confrontation,


 1     argument, and in some cases racial and cultural
 2     division.  All this is done I might add with an
 3     interruption every five minutes for a commercial
 4     message.
 5  1095                 Because in this country we have a
 6     public broadcaster, there is a real sense of ownership
 7     on the part of those of us who use it, I believe, and
 8     acknowledgement of that from the hosts of these shows,
 9     which shows up in the respectful and challenging way
10     that callers are dealt with.
11  1096                 I also feel that in the area of the
12     arts, the CBC is a place where I learn about writers,
13     performers and artists from across this nation.  I
14     don't believe that particularly in the case of Canadian
15     writing the stature and international recognition of
16     our Canadian writers would be what it is today without
17     the support of a public broadcaster.  Where else on the
18     airwaves would I go to find out what is going on in
19     Maritime theatre or Quebec music or Stratford or the
20     Toronto symphony or the Citadel in Edmonton or a young
21     writer from Saskatoon?
22  1097                 Lastly, in terms of radio, where else
23     on the airwaves would I go to get a show like "Ideas"? 
24     This is a show that, over the years, has enriched and
25     challenged my intellect like none other.  It


 1     consistently delivers the highest quality discourse on
 2     a whole spectrum of topics from spirituality of
 3     politics, from science to literature, and to see the
 4     budget of a show like that cut in the past few years
 5     has saddened me greatly.
 6  1098                 You notice that I haven't said much
 7     about CBC TV.  The reason for me is simple.  I believe
 8     that everything I have said about radio should be so
 9     for the TV side and is not.  Being a public
10     broadcaster, I think that the CBC TV should not be
11     commercial in any way.  It should be truly public in
12     the way that radio is now or the way that the BBC
13     currently is.  That is to say without advertising.  In
14     this new world of information technology, of 100
15     commercial channels with more to come, with the
16     commercialization of the Internet, we do not need
17     another commercial outlet.  What we need in this global
18     communications network is a truly Canadian
19     commercial-free broadcast.
20  1099                 I can hear the clamour now.  Where
21     would we get the money?  Taxpayers would never support
22     it.  I don't have the answers for that.  But a way
23     should be found either by downsizing it to a level that
24     we could sustain it at, or by finding the money
25     somewhere.  What better place to debate these questions


 1     than the CBC itself.
 2  1100                 In closing, just let me say that my
 3     concern today is that the CBC is at a crucial juncture
 4     in its history, that its budgets have been slashed to a
 5     point where it barely survives, that an overworked and
 6     demoralized workforce is clamouring for salary catch up
 7     and threatening a lengthy disruption, but there is a
 8     dominant ideology in the land that in the interests of
 9     efficiency and fiscal conservatism cries for less
10     government and the privatization of this institution as
11     well as others.  For myself, I don't understand why
12     that at a time of great economic growth and record
13     corporate profits and record stock markets that there
14     is no money for this and many other important public
15     institutions.  But I suppose that is another topic for
16     another day in a different forum.
17  1101                 As a citizen of this country, I feel
18     that the survival and health of the CBC was never more
19     important.  In this highly commercialized marketplace
20     that we live in, the very notions of democracy and
21     public good are threatened.  In a country as large and
22     diverse as ours, a country that is quickly forgetting
23     its history and being consumed by regional disharmony,
24     a country dominated by American consumer culture, a
25     country that because of its harsh climate and dispersed


 1     population knew from the very beginning that notions of
 2     equality in the public good would be crucial to its
 3     survival, that in this country called Canada, the CBC
 4     may in fact be critical to its ongoing viability. 
 5     Thank you.
 6     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 7  1102                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 8     O'Shea.
 9  1103                 MS VOGEL:  Our next presenter is
10     George Laverock.
12  1104                 MR. GEORGE LAVEROCK:  Commissioners,
13     ladies and gentlemen, please allow me to introduce
14     myself.  My name is George Laverock and my background
15     is that I was a producer, executive producer and
16     manager at CBC radio in Vancouver for 30 years.
17  1105                 I retired from the corporation in the
18     fall of 1997.  When I was an employee of the CBC, it
19     was not appropriate for me to comment on the CBC's
20     performance at such hearings as these.  Now that I am a
21     free citizen, so to speak, I feel there are certain
22     things that need to be said, and certain things that
23     need to be supported.
24  1106                 Let me say at the outset of my
25     remarks that I am a strong supporter of the CBC, both


 1     radio and television, and in an overall sense I think
 2     the corporation is doing the best job that it can under
 3     the circumstances, which are dire.
 4  1107                 I think that it is immensely ironic
 5     that the CRTC, a regulatory arm of the Canadian
 6     government, is asking the public how well the CBC is
 7     doing after the same government has cut off financial
 8     support for the CBC at the knees.
 9     --- Applause / Applaudissements
10  1108                 MR. GEORGE LAVEROCK:  It is a little
11     like Agriculture Canada asking a farmer who has no
12     seeds, no fertilizer and no water, "How is your garden
13     growing?"
14  1109                 I want to emphasize the fact that the
15     CBC does so much else besides journalism.  This was
16     mentioned earlier by Mr. Court, I believe.  This is
17     often overlooked.  As a matter of fact, I was surprised
18     to hear on a private television station the statement
19     last week that over 2,500 CBC journalists may go on
20     strike next week.  The fact is that only a fraction of
21     these people are journalists.  The majority of the
22     people in this union are working in other fields, such
23     as arts, music and drama.  I think that the politicians
24     often forget this fact as well.  They forget that the
25     performing artists in this country would have no way of


 1     reaching audiences outside of their own community
 2     without the CBC.
 3  1110                 In my opinion, Canadians should value
 4     very highly the opportunity that the CBC networks offer
 5     for their artists and creative people to communicate
 6     with people in every part of the country.  There is
 7     nothing like CBC radio in the U.S.A., both the NPR and
 8     the APR are ragtag consortiums of individual stations
 9     which don't really help very much for Americans to
10     communicate with each other.
11  1111                 My point is how would people in
12     Halifax or Montreal know about our best West Coast
13     performers if there were no CBC? Would the private
14     broadcasters step in and start broadcasting concerts by
15     the Vancouver Chamber Choir or the Brad Turner Jazz
16     Quintet?
17  1112                 We all know the answer to that
18     question.  Private radio does nothing to develop or
19     expose Canadian talent other than spinning CDs.  They
20     even complain about having to spin Canadian CDs.
21  1113                 This unique broadcasting system that
22     we have in Canada, and I am referring to the capability
23     of the CBC networks to reach almost all Canadians at
24     any given time, this unique system brings with it an
25     enormous responsibility for high standards.  I suppose


 1     that is what the CRTC is really asking in a way:  Are
 2     the standards being maintained and are the public
 3     airwaves being used in the most wise fashion?
 4  1114                 I should say that I believe that the
 5     CBC shouldn't try to be everything to everybody.  CBC
 6     radio, for example, has traditionally designed programs
 7     for mature, intelligent people.  In my view, it
 8     shouldn't apologize for that or start pumping more
 9     resources into doing more pop culture programming just
10     in order to try to attract more young listeners.
11  1115                 One of the other major points that I
12     would like to make this evening is that the CBC must
13     always be on guard against what I would call creeping
14     centralization.  As the corporation struggles to deal
15     with the enormous cuts that have been imposed since
16     Perrin Beatty became president, it must be tempting for
17     the network management to circle their wagons, so to
18     speak, and to protect as best as they can the
19     programming resources in Toronto, the so-called
20     broadcasting centre.  I personally have never accepted
21     the notion that Toronto is at the centre and that the
22     rest of us are in regions.  For me, Ontario is a region
23     as well.
24  1116                 On the radio side, one of the
25     traditional strengths of the corporation as we used to


 1     know it was to decentralize program production.  Now,
 2     in the aftermath of the latest round of budget cuts,
 3     less and less programs with meaningful budgets are
 4     coming from outside of Toronto.
 5  1117                 For example, all the radio programs
 6     on Radio Two, which broadcast live concerts are now
 7     centralized in Toronto.  My argument is that it is
 8     impossible for someone in Toronto to have a balanced
 9     and informed view of what is going on in any cultural
10     field in the entire country.  By having different
11     programs originating in different broadcast centres,
12     there is a much better chance that a balanced and
13     relevant menu of talent will be exposed to the
14     listeners.
15  1118                 The other aspect of this problem is
16     the issue of the fairness of access to the airwaves by
17     artists in all parts of the country.  Creative people
18     with something to say do not all live in Toronto.
19  1119                 Since I personally have had 30 years
20     experience inside the CBC, I can say without any doubt
21     that the service has been whittled away and is
22     struggling to remain distinctive.  For example, in my
23     field of expertise, music, there are fewer and fewer
24     concerts broadcast every month on CBC radio.  There are
25     so few people left to handle the production of these


 1     events that the script and presentation research is
 2     becoming more superficial and down right sloppy.  Every
 3     one who is still there is doing about three people's
 4     jobs and the product is bound to suffer.
 5  1120                 What can the CRTC do about these
 6     problems?  As a regulator and not a funding source,
 7     there is only so much that you can do.  But I sincerely
 8     hope that you will make decisions and recommendations
 9     that will strengthen the CBC and return it to the
10     status of one of the leading public broadcasters in the
11     world.
12  1121                 Thank you.
13     --- Applause / Applaudissements
14  1122                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
15     Laverock.
16  1123                 MS VOGEL:  Next, I would invite Irene
17     Javor to make her presentation.
19  1124                 MS IRENE JAVOR:  Thank you.  The
20     Canadian Broadcasting Corporation had its beginnings in
21     the 1930s and since then the CBC has stood as Canada's
22     principal independent tool for cultural and political
23     sovereignty.
24  1125                 The CBC has kept us informed about
25     regional, national and global events.  It has been the


 1     tie that bounds together the different regions of
 2     Canada and has helped strengthen its national identity.
 3  1126                 I have listened to CBC radio since I
 4     was a child in Winnipeg.  On school days when, at one
 5     p.m., I heard the start of the time signal from the
 6     Dominion Observatory in Winnipeg, I knew then that
 7     before the long dash started that I had to run out of
 8     the house or I would be late for school.
 9  1127                 In the 1940s and in the '50s, we used
10     to listen to plays, stories, newscasts, music and even
11     political debates on CBC radio.  This was a main link
12     to the rest of Canada and to the world.
13  1128                 The result of polls taken have shown
14     that 80 per cent of Canadians want a solid, secure and
15     effective public broadcasting system.  This strong show
16     of support for the CBC should be all the justification
17     needed by the CRTC and the federal government to
18     restore funding to enable the CBC to return to the
19     vibrant and interesting radio programming it once
20     produced.
21  1129                 CBC programming should reflect and
22     interpret the views and ideals of all its citizens from
23     coast to coast.  As a result of the many cuts in
24     funding at the CBC, too many of our talented writers,
25     announcers, producers and dedicated staff at CBC have


 1     left the corporation and been forced to work elsewhere. 
 2     Much of this creative talent has been lost to Canada
 3     with many of the former CBC staffers moving to the
 4     United States.
 5  1130                 As a result of these major funding
 6     cuts continuing, the CBC is rapidly losing its ability
 7     to produce regional productions.  The diversity in
 8     Canada will not be properly addressed if all or most of
 9     the CBC productions originate in Eastern Canada.  There
10     is life in Canada outside of the Toronto area.
11  1131                 The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
12     no longer has foreign correspondents in London, Moscow,
13     New Delhi, New York and Paris.  The only remaining CBC
14     foreign correspondent is based in Washington, D.C.
15  1132                 If this sorry state of affairs is
16     allowed to continue, Canadian news on CBC radio and
17     television will be forced to rely on non-Canadian
18     correspondents.  Consequently, the basis of what is
19     considered newsworthy and relevant to Canadians will be
20     decided by local broadcasters, not Canadian
21     correspondents.
22  1133                 These newscasts will then not reflect
23     the Canadian viewpoint.  Our newscasts and programs
24     will then be judged as similar in value to those
25     originating from a banana republic and not from a


 1     member of the G-7.
 2  1134                 It is of vital importance that both
 3     CBC radio and television produce and air more programs
 4     about Canadian history.  We seem to have a generation
 5     of young people that is very knowledgeable about
 6     American history and yet has scant knowledge of the
 7     important events that shaped Canada.  Whether or not
 8     our educational system is to blame is not the issue
 9     here; it is that our public broadcasting system has the
10     responsibility to remind Canadians about our past.
11  1135                 If the CBC abdicates this
12     responsibility, this generation of Canadians and the
13     next one coming up will not know or care about Canadian
14     history and Canadian ideals.  If native born Canadians
15     do not know and celebrate the rich and interesting past
16     of their country, then our new Canadians will never
17     have a chance to learn about their new country and
18     become part of this tapestry that is Canada.  Canada
19     will then face a very real prospect of being absorbed
20     by the United States and becoming a colony, not even
21     attaining statehood.
22  1136                 CBC is unique.  CBC radio and
23     television should never even try to compete with the
24     private sector.
25  1137                 CBC should concentrate on what it


 1     does best.  CBC's mandate is to inform Canadians on
 2     issues relevant to Canadians with programming that
 3     reflects the Canadian identity in various regions of
 4     the country.
 5  1138                 I strongly urge the members of the
 6     CRTC to consider the desires and wishes of the Canadian
 7     public when making decisions which will affect the CBC
 8     and, ultimately, the Canadian public.
 9  1139                 Thank you.
10     --- Applause / Applaudissements
11  1140                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
12     Javor.
13  1141                 We are going to take our evening
14     break, 15 minutes, and we will recommence at quarter to
15     eight.  Thank you.
16     --- Recess at 1930 / Suspension à 1930
17     --- Upon resuming at 1950 / Reprise à 1930
18  1142                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary,
19     will you call the next presenter?
20  1143                 MS VOGEL:  Thank you, Commissioner
21     Grauer.  I would like to call David Lemon to make his
22     presentation, please.
24  1144                 MR. DAVID LEMON:  Thank you.  Before
25     I start my presentation proper, having listened of


 1     course to all the interesting presentations we have
 2     already had, I can't help but speculate that we are
 3     hearing very much what we would have heard three years
 4     ago before successive governments began to cut the CBC
 5     really savagely.  It seems to me quite possible that
 6     there isn't a government in this country for the last
 7     15 or 20 years that really values the significance of
 8     the CBC.  As a portion of the total budget of this
 9     country, it is minuscule and the amount of damage that
10     is being done by the cuts is tremendous.  They knew
11     that when they started to make them.
12  1145                 I am going to limit my comments to
13     CBC radio and CBC Radio Two particularly. 
14     Paradoxically, in a world of expanding image delivery
15     systems, the value of subsidized non-commercial radio
16     as a medium of entertainment and information will
17     become greater.
18  1146                 In a multi-channel world, music
19     chosen by the listener will be available in a range of
20     pipelines, but programming, which implies a community
21     of audience sharing ideas, music, learning and humour,
22     will continue indefinitely to require the agency of a
23     broadcaster.
24  1147                 Drama, comedy, programs about music,
25     news and current affairs will be a significant choice


 1     of the vast boomer population, starting I expect in
 2     about five years when they begin to have more leisure. 
 3     At the same time, there is a great opportunity as yet
 4     unmet to offer programming for young people in forms
 5     which commercial broadcasters cannot create.
 6  1148                 Yet, we are experiencing a fatal loss
 7     of confidence in the value of commercial-free
 8     programming, programming directed at people who enjoy
 9     knowing more about something after you listen than
10     before, and who are actually expected to be engaged in
11     listening, not doing three other things at the same
12     time.
13  1149                 There are signs that the CBC itself
14     is starving CBC Radio Two of resources.
15  1150                 The annual report is an unhelpful
16     document, even contradictory, and the problem with
17     discussion of CBC matters is that we only glean
18     information from press reports and rhetoric, which is
19     very dangerous.  I have learned that the budget of CBC
20     Radio Two is now about $8 million a year.  Three years
21     ago, it was $13 million.  So, it used to be 1 per cent
22     of the total budget and it is now about .75 per cent.
23  1151                 On page 6 of the annual report, the
24     president of the corporation claims that its annual
25     expenditures were cut by $400 million in the three


 1     years prior to the 1997-98 year.  The charts on page 24
 2     of the annual report tell a different story.  The net
 3     drop in the total of appropriations and net revenues
 4     from sales and advertising is $147 million, not $400
 5     million.  So, with nearly 14 per cent of the total
 6     revenues going to English radio, which is about
 7     $15,500,000, plus a special allocation of $10 million
 8     more for radio, it is hard to see why the action has
 9     swung so savagely across FM's jugular.
10  1152                 Programming is suffering badly. 
11     There are almost no discrete programs, just passages of
12     time done which are accompanied by an increasingly
13     small number of guides.  Some of these go out of their
14     way to ensure that we are not challenged by anything we
15     might not know and whatever learning they may possess,
16     they go out of their way to disguise under relentless
17     facetiousness.
18  1153                 I recently heard the young players of
19     the McGill orchestra described in a jolly way as storm
20     troopers, the idea being I suppose that they will
21     attack the upcoming Brahms symphony with invasive
22     fervour; but in the event it seemed to me the metaphor
23     was not only tasteless and stupid but ignorant.
24  1154                 But surely elimination of inanity is
25     not only a matter of expenditure.  Perhaps the


 1     starvation is oxygen to the corporate brain.  Is CBC
 2     moving away from traditional broadcasting all together
 3     and intends to invest instead in the pipelines from
 4     which people are expected to draw down their
 5     entertainment and information?  Galaxy perhaps is a
 6     start.
 7  1155                 Whether offering such services, which
 8     are essentially feeds of sonic wallpaper, constitutes
 9     public broadcasting is a moot point, however the shape
10     of programs and other suppliers to the pipelines of the
11     future.
12  1156                 There needs to be a radical shift in
13     direction toward distinctive program shape and
14     structure, if Radio Two is not going to become little
15     more than a constant stream of music.  Such invaluable
16     enterprises as the CBC Vancouver Orchestra, the last
17     radio orchestra in North America, will be irrelevant if
18     all the public is deemed to want is bits and pieces of
19     music from every genre at once.
20  1157                 What is needed is a wholesale
21     revision of values at CBC Radio Two and the corporation
22     should allocate to it at least the equivalent
23     proportion of its overall budget to the service that it
24     did three years ago.
25  1158                 Radio offers something better than


 1     choice of entertainment options we control.  It offers
 2     the unexpected.  The pleasures of surprise and expanded
 3     horizons don't come from what we already know but from
 4     what we don't know.
 5  1159                 I want to hear programs from other
 6     regions on the network, as well as my own, and I want
 7     other regions to know what is going on in British
 8     Columbia.
 9  1160                 The commonplace that CBC is a vital
10     component in whatever national experience we share is
11     true.  Without it, we would either have to invent it or
12     succumb to the southern gravity which affects every
13     commercial activity in this country.
14  1161                 I offer another dispiriting
15     possibility for the abdication of values by the
16     management of CBC Radio Two.  Bent upon earning
17     revenues to compensate for loss of appropriation, which
18     is an odd word for subsidy, they will not support a
19     service which under the conditions of its licence
20     cannot earn revenues from advertising.
21  1162                 So, it may be thought that the answer
22     to everyone's prayers might be to allow CBC to accept
23     commercial sponsorships and sell advertising time.  I
24     hope you will not permit the corporation to take so
25     easy a path.  I hope that there remains at CBC some


 1     vestige of interest in maintaining the peculiar and
 2     uniquely Canadian value of a tiny sliver of public
 3     broadcasting which is not used as a vehicle for any
 4     commercial interests whatever.
 5  1163                 There is nothing wrong with
 6     commercial interests.  Indeed, there are things CBC
 7     could do to generate revenues, as the non-commercial
 8     BBC has done very successfully.  But they do not belong
 9     in every field of human endeavour.
10  1164                 The evidence is that public cultural
11     organizations, particularly those closest to the
12     entertainment business, will lose their individuality
13     if they are thrown to the mercies of subscriber-based
14     programming and market-oriented subsidy and reliant
15     upon it for programming, become intellectual servants
16     rather than leaders.
17  1165                 What radio does well, better than any
18     other medium, is to offer a sound scape in the
19     imagination.  That constructs places that we had not
20     been, invents dramatic stages for us and places us
21     among musicians.  Radio governed by voices who trust
22     that we want to know more, feel more, understand more
23     than we do now.
24  1166                 Much of this remains at CBC.  There
25     is much to be proud of.  There is no reason why it


 1     cannot be added to.  CBC must not only not compete with
 2     private broadcasters, who cannot consistently offer
 3     programming of any substantial depth, it must embrace
 4     the task of seeking out for broadcast the finest minds
 5     we have, the most expert guides, the clearest
 6     interpreters of the most complex issues.  We want the
 7     funniest and the wittiest, too.
 8  1167                 Whatever excellence CBC radio can
 9     point to, a sense of doom and diminution is heavy in
10     the atmosphere.  Cuts upon cuts do not seem to reflect
11     that the corporation as a whole retains 85 per cent of
12     the revenues it enjoyed three years ago.  The limited
13     hosts, increasing errors of programming given over to
14     eclectic music choices and small snippets, the
15     unscripted and unfiltered banter, the chummy chats
16     between journalists which are taking the place of
17     formal reports, are all signs of radio dementia which
18     ends in death by absorption into the private
19     broadcasting sector which ticks emulate.
20  1168                 CBC must be given the mandate to
21     continue to offer content which, by virtue of
22     arms-length funding, only a subsidized broadcaster can
23     offer.  It should not at the same time be required to
24     increase audiences as a consequence of its grants. 
25     Excellence is hard to measure and because it can only


 1     be measured by people with experience not at everyone's
 2     disposal it has become regarded as elitist.  For that
 3     reason, has the arbitrary standard of numbers of
 4     listeners been set as a value of programming?  But do
 5     not management of CBC imagine people are all enjoying
 6     the cheap tricks of commercial broadcasting on CBC?  Is
 7     the persistence of numbers of listeners due to loyalty
 8     in spite of the diminution of standards or driven by
 9     it?  Do the CBC know?
10  1169                 Not every road in the Northwest
11     Territories can be used by all Canadians.  That doesn't
12     mean that people in the Northwest Territories shouldn't
13     have roads.  So not every Canadian will want to use
14     what CBC Radio Two offers to a minority.  But if there
15     is any characteristics of our age, it is diversity.  It
16     seems that even in the sphere of public broadcasting,
17     the few are threatened to be denied what the many are
18     presumed not to want.  Now, that is elitist.
19  1170                 Thank you.
20     --- Applause / Applaudissements
21  1171                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
22     Lemon.
23  1172                 MS VOGEL:  Our next presenter this
24     evening is Shirley Young.


 1  1173                 MS SHIRLEY YOUNG:  Can you hear me?
 2  1174                 Good evening.  I feel very privileged
 3     to have the opportunity to speak in support of the
 4     Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.
 5  1175                 My personal involvement with the CBC
 6     was with respect to my late son Peter.  Peter was a
 7     young Vancouver physician who in 1990 lost his vision
 8     to AIDS.  At that time, a physician friends of Peter's
 9     came up with a very compelling idea, to do a televised
10     presentation of a person with AIDS.  This would provide
11     a face and an identity to this illness which at that
12     time held a tremendous stigma and about which the
13     public remained largely uninformed.
14  1176                 He took this idea to the CBC and they
15     courageously agreed to do five, three-minute diaries,
16     which would air each evening for one week.
17  1177                 The concept was a simple one.  It
18     would just be Peter speaking to the viewing audience,
19     telling them what this illness was all about and how it
20     impacted a person's life and the lives of those around
21     him.  He would become known simply as Doctor Peter.
22  1178                 The object was to raise awareness
23     about AIDS and to educate the public.  Fortunately, the
24     producer chosen for this project was David Kapernie and
25     together David and Peter created television history.


 1  1179                 The public response to the program
 2     was such that the diaries continued once a week for the
 3     following two years, for a total of 111 diaries in all,
 4     until Peter's death in November 1992.
 5  1180                 The CBC did accomplish what they set
 6     out to do and Peter became Canada's leading
 7     spokesperson on HIV and AIDS.  As a result of this, he
 8     spoke at schools, hospitals, prisons, nurses'
 9     conferences and to medical students.
10  1181                 The diaries were televised around the
11     world and provided viewers with an understanding and
12     appreciation of the very human dimension of the AIDS
13     tragedy and its affect on the world's population.
14  1182                 In mid-June 1991, the AIDS Diaries
15     were selected for a screening at Input '91, an
16     international conference of public broadcasters taking
17     place in Dublin, Ireland.  This event hosted a
18     gathering of 600 of the world's highest calibre public
19     television producers who came to view selected pieces
20     and exchange ideas about innovative television.  David
21     and Peter had the privilege of attending this
22     conference.  This was a tremendous honour and credit to
23     CBC.
24  1183                 After Peter's death, HBO in the
25     United States, with the help of David Kipernie, filmed


 1     a compilation of the diaries to be named, "The
 2     Broadcast Tapes of Doctor Peter".  This documentary won
 3     three American Cable Ace Awards for best host, best
 4     writer and best documentary, and was also nominated for
 5     an Academy Award in 1994.
 6  1184                 When I said earlier that David and
 7     Peter created television history, it really was the
 8     truth.  This meaningful contribution to society would
 9     never have occurred without CBC being far-sighted
10     enough to risk doing such a controversial show, one in
11     which a young gay man would speak to the viewers about
12     his life with AIDS.  Naturally, there were some viewers
13     who did not agree.  But it was a clear case of
14     considering the potential, to enlighten and inform the
15     public on an issue which in 1990 was still being
16     politely avoided.
17  1185                 I wonder how many lives were spared
18     and, perhaps, how many millions of health care dollars
19     were saved because the CBC had the gumption to air this
20     show.
21  1186                 The AIDS Diaries gave Peter a
22     meaningful purpose the final two years of his life. 
23     With the loss of his vision, he was unable to practise
24     medicine in the conventional way.  But CBC provided him
25     with the opportunity to practise medicine in a more


 1     unique manner.
 2  1187                 Those who benefited from his message
 3     went beyond people with HIV and AIDS.  His advocacy
 4     work included those suffering with serious illnesses of
 5     all types, as well as to the elderly who struggle with
 6     the aging process and the physical challenges it
 7     presents.  We were often told by numerous people -- and
 8     I have to say continue to be told by numerous people --
 9     how grateful they were for the program and how it
10     helped them to cope with their life struggles.
11  1188                 When Peter lost his fight to AIDS,
12     CBC televised the memorial service, and this was a very
13     painful time for our family.  The CBC cameramen and
14     crew were the epitome of dignity.  Never once did they
15     intrude or make us feel our privacy was being invaded. 
16     I doubt very much that such could be said had any other
17     television network been involved.
18  1189                 I will state this on behalf of my
19     family and the board members of the Doctor Peter AIDS
20     Foundation and take this opportunity to express our
21     gratitude to the CBC for the support they have given
22     and continue to give to the Interim Doctor Peter Day
23     Centre and Hospice residents for people with HIV here
24     in Vancouver, which daily provides medical and
25     emotional support for people living with this illness


 1     in a safe and loving environment.
 2  1190                 This centre is the first of its kind
 3     in Canada.  This centre, I am sure, would not exist
 4     without the CBC.
 5  1191                 Now, I would like to say that had
 6     Peter never been ill, had the diaries never existed, I
 7     would still like to be here this evening to speak in
 8     support of the CBC.  As we all know, television is the
 9     most powerful media in the world today.  It impacts
10     lives in a very profound way.  Used properly, it can be
11     a marvellous tool; but used improperly, it can destroy
12     and ruin the fragile fabric of our modern society.  The
13     amount of violence and negativity on television screens
14     in living rooms today should be a serious concern for
15     us all.
16  1192                 Environmentalists have made us aware
17     of the careless way which society has abused its
18     natural resources and, unfortunately, in some cases
19     done irreparable damage.  Children are the most
20     precious resource we have.  Society has a
21     responsibility to protect their emotional environment. 
22     There is more violence and crime today in our western
23     world than should exist and I feel that one of the
24     reasons for this is because we allow the pollution of
25     young minds to be of little importance.


 1  1193                 After a recent incident involving the
 2     violent death of a young person, fellow students at the
 3     high school were interviewed and asked why such a
 4     tragedy had occurred.  Do you know what one of the
 5     young girls said?  Today, violence is entertainment,
 6     and that is pretty scary.
 7  1194                 Private television stations are
 8     naturally profit driven.  Thank goodness the CBC's
 9     mandate is to inform, enlighten and entertain by
10     creating and presenting distinctive, high quality
11     programs, including some of the best from around the
12     world.
13  1195                 CBC has a commitment to serve the
14     Canadian public by providing relevant, reliable and
15     meaningful programming that reflects the diversity of
16     Canada to Canadians and to the world.  It is not about
17     selling blue jeans and junk food.
18  1196                 According to a recent article in the
19     Vancouver Sun, the CBC costs each of us only $27 per
20     year, or a little more than 50-cents per week, versus
21     well over double that cost to people in the U.K. for
22     the BBC.  The article further stated that polls show
23     that 80 per cent of Canadians really love their CBC and
24     want it strengthened.
25  1197                 In closing, I just wish to state that


 1     I sincerely hope the CRTC will recognize the
 2     contribution of the CBC over these many years and
 3     ensure that it be allowed to continue to provide
 4     Canadians with the high calibre of entertainment and
 5     news broadcasting that they have done so competently in
 6     the past.
 7  1198                 Thank you.
 8     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 9  1199                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mrs.
10     Young.
11  1200                 MS VOGEL:  Our next presenter this
12     evening is Evelyn Parsons.
14  1201                 MS EVELYN PARSONS:  Good evening.  I
15     would like to thank everybody from the CRTC panel for
16     coming.
17  1202                 I am having a bit of an eye problem
18     today, along with other things, so I am going to
19     struggle through this.
20  1203                 I am very pleased to have been
21     allowed to be given this opportunity to express our
22     views on public broadcasting.  I am going to start by
23     listing some of the programs that I enjoy.  I enjoy the
24     news presentations, local, national and "Newsworld".  I
25     never feel the CBC has mistaken a news broadcast for


 1     the latest sit-com.  The only time I felt that they
 2     offered something I could do without was the
 3     Bill-Monica story, and I had the choice of hitting the
 4     off button, and I did.
 5  1204                 I also like "Fifth Estate", the
 6     "Health Show", "Country Canada" and "The Nature of
 7     Things".  Productions such as "Emily", "Wind At My
 8     Back", Canadian stories of earlier times in our
 9     history, and I see CTV is now running "Emily", maybe
10     CBC and the other production companies can realize a
11     few dollars for the kitty.
12  1205                 I was also mightily pleased when I
13     heard that CBC had been awarded the rights to produce
14     the coverage of the Olympics for the next umpteen years
15     -- thank God.  Can you spell Lillehammer?  That was
16     pathetic.  If that was a sample of what the private
17     sector can do, forget it.
18  1206                 I started to keep a time card of the
19     minutes of advertising and the minutes of goofy
20     comments as opposed to the actual airtime of the
21     Olympic competitions.  The longer it went on the more
22     disgruntled I became.  You are a hostage to that
23     network and their advertiser.  At that time, I didn't
24     have remote control.  I can't remember how many days it
25     was before I went out to get something.


 1  1207                 Problems with the CBC radio.  A
 2     number of years ago, there were discussions concerning
 3     the CBC and the consensus of opinion of every one was
 4     leave the CBC radio alone.  It appeared to be working
 5     the way everyone wanted.  Here, too, there were cuts
 6     and voices we had come to admire had suddenly
 7     disappeared.  There used to be radio dramas, some of
 8     them adventure stories, mysteries, current-day fables,
 9     all dried up.  There is still one weekly comedy, the
10     "Dead Dog Cafe" with Tom King, Gracey Heavy-Hand and
11     Jasper Friendly Bear from Blossom, Alberta.
12  1208                 We have "This Morning" with Michael
13     Enright and Avril Benoit.  From noon to two we have
14     local programming and then Bill Richardson which is
15     broadcast across the country, I believe. 
16     Unfortunately, for me, I seem to be out running around
17     on many days.
18  1209                 What I don't like about CBC, just
19     kidding, I don't like the fact that the Governor of the
20     CBC is an appointee of the government and that the CRTC
21     is also appointed by the government.  Given that Prime
22     Minister Chrétien of all past Prime Ministers is the
23     most antagonistic to the CBC, and if you enjoy the CBC
24     it appears like a recipe for disaster.  Can you spell
25     "Little Red Book", a promise of stable funding? What


 1     stable funding?  How about getting back to regional
 2     programming?
 3  1210                 Vancouver produced some excellent
 4     shows.  I wrote one time to express my delight and they
 5     wrote back to say that the program had been made by
 6     local producers and that they were planning on
 7     producing a sequel, "Green Grass and Running Water". 
 8     You know what happened to that, don't you?
 9  1211                 As to the future, unlike a chap I saw
10     on TV yesterday, whose feeling was that in the
11     500-channel universe CBC would become redundant, I
12     don't think so.  I think more than ever we need our
13     history, tales of our past, and a vision for our
14     future.
15  1212                 I have a suggestion re youth
16     programming.  Why not something along the same lines as
17     "Newsworld", with its own channel and continuous
18     programs of interest to young people? It is the younger
19     generation who don't seem to be attracted to CBC except
20     in more remote areas.
21  1213                 Thank you very much.
22     --- Applause / Applaudissements
23  1214                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
24     Parsons.
25  1215                 MS VOGEL:  I would like to invite


 1     Anne-Marie Lawrence to make her presentation, please.
 3  1216                 MS ANNE-MARIE LAWRENCE:  Thank you. 
 4     Good evening.  My name is Anne-Marie Lawrence, and
 5     first I should like to thank the CRTC for inviting
 6     ordinary Canadians such as myself to take part in these
 7     consultations on the CBC's role, the programming it
 8     offers at national and regional levels, and the
 9     direction that it should take in the future.
10  1217                 I know I am repeating the words of
11     other presenters when I tell you that while all of CBC
12     is important to me as our national broadcaster, it is
13     CBC radio, both AM and FM, that is of enormous
14     importance to me and to my family, including my 24-year
15     old daughter.
16  1218                 In a description of who I am I would
17     include, I am a CBC listener.  I am also sure you have
18     heard similar stories when I say that on arriving in
19     Canada in 1967, it was difficult to grasp what this
20     country was about until I discovered CBC radio.  CBC
21     radio opened a window on the entire country,
22     introducing me to the arts, the music, the musicians,
23     and singers, the poets, the writers, the intellectuals,
24     the humorists, the actors, the personalities of this
25     great country.


 1  1219                 CBC taught me how to become a
 2     Canadian, how to understand its immensity, its history,
 3     its regional differences and its similarities.
 4  1220                 It has kept me informed about current
 5     affairs, the political parties and the politics of the
 6     nation and it has informed me about the governments at
 7     local and national levels.  This window of information
 8     and cultural diversity is simply not available on any
 9     other radio stations.
10  1221                 I believe that CBC radio has done a
11     really excellent job in its role as national
12     broadcaster, even under tremendous cutbacks in recent
13     years.
14  1222                 CBC television, which I don't watch
15     as much as I listen to the radio, offers many fine
16     broadcasts, but it has not defined itself with the same
17     degree of success as radio.  I would like to see CBC
18     television continue to increase Canadian programming
19     and programming from other parts of the world with the
20     exception of the United States, which is well
21     represented on other channels.  Canadian programming
22     should originate from different regions of Canada at a
23     national and also local programming in order to move
24     away from the Toronto-centric influences.  Perhaps it
25     would be a wise move if the television arm studied just


 1     why so many Canadians are passionate in their defence
 2     of CBC radio.
 3  1223                 However, it all comes down to
 4     funding.  As a national broadcaster, the television arm
 5     of CBC is somewhat constrained and possibly compromised
 6     in its programming decisions by its need for funding
 7     from advertising revenue.  It is a need that increases
 8     annually as during the past few years we have seen
 9     successive governments reduce CBC funding to totally
10     inadequate levels for a nation's public broadcaster.
11  1224                 Why?  I keep asking why we have a
12     government that feels it is necessary to constrain and
13     limit national broadcasting in this way.
14  1225                 In recent years we have seen cuts in
15     funding that have led to demoralizing lay-offs of the
16     staff, early retirements, alarming cuts in areas of
17     programming, the most recent the decision to close many
18     foreign news bureaus.
19  1226                 World news siphoned to us through
20     British or American news correspondents is totally
21     unacceptable for the Canadian public.  We need
22     investigative journalism both at home and abroad to be
23     undertaken by Canadian journalists.
24  1227                 The board of the CBC administers
25     these cuts.  The board of the CBC consists of political


 1     appointees, some of whom have no understanding or
 2     experience in the field of broadcasting.  As political
 3     appointees, it appears that they do, however,
 4     understand that the current government is intent on
 5     funding cuts that go beyond national fiscal restraint. 
 6     Again, it is important to ask the question:  Why has
 7     the government taken this position?  The result of the
 8     cutbacks has been a downward spiral that is presently
 9     at a critical juncture.  Unless CBC is offered
10     increased funding, it will undoubtedly deteriorate
11     resulting in listener and viewer dissatisfaction.
12  1228                 Before the CBC ventures into any of
13     the recently rumoured expansion plans, there should be
14     a demand for increased funding to return the CBC that
15     currently exists to some of its former strengths. 
16     International coverage other than U.S. coverage should
17     be increased in areas of culture, current affairs, news
18     and entertainment.  The foreign news bureaus should be
19     reopened and new ones added.  "The National" news
20     should have a greater level of in-depth world news and
21     Canadian news.  At the moment, we are too often offered
22     very short clips on important news items.
23  1229                 As a fan of "As It Happens" since its
24     inception, I often listen to call back calls from
25     American listeners who frequently indicate that they


 1     love the program and to "keep up the good work".
 2  1230                 While Americans have some public
 3     broadcasting, it is not to the extent or of the calibre
 4     of CBC radio.  CBC radio is a distinctively Canadian
 5     voice that has given us the voices of so many
 6     Canadians.  Time limits us here, but think of the
 7     Canadians from so many walks of life that the CBC
 8     brought to my kitchen and to yours.  Here are just a
 9     small number: Northrop Frye, W.O. Mitchell, Glenn
10     Gould, Barbara Frum, Allan Maitland, Stan Rogers,
11     Margaret Laurence, Robertson Davies, now all sadly gone
12     in life they can live on for us through radio.
13  1231                 As Canadians, we have a common
14     knowledge of so many people and programs.  I cannot
15     imagine my daily life without CBC radio.  I listen as I
16     drive my car, cook dinner, iron, work at the computer. 
17     Sometimes I simply sit and listen.
18  1232                 CBC radio offers programming that is
19     thoughtful, provocative, pleasing, sometimes annoying
20     but almost always interesting, and what a variety of
21     programming:  "This Morning", "Quirks and Quarks",
22     "Between the Covers", "Ideas", "Richardson's Round-up",
23     "Definitely Not the Opera", "On Stage", "Writers and
24     Company", "Tapestry", "C'est la Vie", Stuart McLean,
25     Arthur Black, all national programs, as well as many


 1     good local programs on the AM dial.
 2  1233                 On FM, we have the music around This
 3     Young Artists Series, Young Composers' Competition, the
 4     Greatest Music ever Composed, concerts with the CBC
 5     Vancouver Orchestra, concerts from the National Arts
 6     Centre and, as has been indicated a little earlier, a
 7     lot of these programs have been cut back in recent
 8     years and it is a tragedy.
 9  1234                 We have Sheila Rogers and we have
10     Jurgen Goth leading us through a range of musical
11     offerings and, of course, "Saturday Afternoon at the
12     Opera".
13  1235                 For those of us who struggle with our
14     French, Radio Canada is an important opportunity to tap
15     into Canada's French culture, what is said and the view
16     of the Canada it gives us.  For those of us who are
17     part of this great country's French culture, it is
18     essential that it stays in place throughout the
19     country.
20  1236                 CBC radio and television have made
21     household names out of so many gifted Canadians, most
22     born in Canada, and others who adopted this country for
23     their own.  With Margaret Atwood, Alice Munro, Timothy
24     Findlay, Mordechai Richler, Pierre Berton, Peter
25     Gzowski, Leonard Cohen, Carol Shields, Karen, Camp and


 1     Lewis, Jan Wong, Michael Ondatje, Rohinton Mistry,
 2     Margaret Visser -- the list just goes on and on and
 3     could fill, many, many pages.
 4  1237                 To the CRTC, I say, in Canada, you do
 5     not have to be wealthy to have access to a rich
 6     diversity of cultural experiences and ideas.  You need
 7     only to have a radio with CBC programming.
 8  1238                 It can be said that culture defines a
 9     country, but that can only happen if the country has a
10     strong, vibrant and unique culture.  Pierre Trudeau
11     once contended that being Canadian is like being in bed
12     with an elephant when it comes to the United States. 
13     As it is, programming from the United States is readily
14     available to all Canadian viewers.  If we allow
15     Canadian national broadcasting to disappear, I fear we
16     will become victims of cultural colonization.  I also
17     fear that if all programming in Canadian broadcasting
18     is reliant upon advertising revenue, advertising policy
19     may increasingly influence programming decisions and
20     content.
21  1239                 Imagine a Canada with only commercial
22     regional radio.  Imagine no CBC television with no
23     outlet for Canadian talent, culture and sports.  If
24     culture defines a country, and if Canadian culture is
25     the essence of what makes us so different from the


 1     United States and, indeed, the rest of the world, we
 2     must ensure that CBC is given the opportunity to
 3     recover from the damaging cutbacks to strengthen its
 4     position as a Canadian voice, and then, later, when the
 5     resources are once again in place, be permitted to
 6     expand its programming mandate for both television and
 7     radio.
 8  1240                 I honestly cannot think of a more
 9     effective way of bonding this vast country's diverse
10     culture and identity than through a national
11     broadcaster.
12  1241                 If through lack of funding and
13     support, the Government of Canada allows the national
14     broadcaster to vanish from the screens and airwaves, it
15     will inevitably lead to a very different kind of
16     Canada.  CBC has long been the platform for those first
17     performances or interviews.  Without CBC, Canadian
18     artists in every genre would lose their audience, and
19     the audience would have few means of finding them
20     outside large urban areas.
21  1242                 Without CBC, we would be ignorant of
22     the lives of our fellow citizens from coast to coast to
23     coast.  Imagine, no "Cross Country Checkup", or
24     programs of this type, with the amazing opportunity it
25     gives to Canadians to connect across the country in


 1     discussion and offered opinion.
 2  1243                 Without this sort of programming, we
 3     would lack access to in-depth discussion about
 4     government intentions and policies.  We could say that
 5     the Americans survive without a national broadcaster,
 6     but for a country that calls itself a great democracy,
 7     they have a very low voter turn out at election time.
 8  1244                 Finally, just in case I have not made
 9     it clear, I feel passionately about the continued
10     existence of CBC as Canada's national broadcaster.  I
11     want to see its funding restored and increased so that
12     it can continue to offer a high quality of programming
13     and eventually be able to expand its programming in
14     television and in radio.
15  1245                 Dozens of friends who were unable to
16     attend this hearing also feel the same way about CBC,
17     especially radio.  As I said at the beginning of this
18     presentation, CBC introduced me to Canada, the culture
19     and the people.  As a result, I can say, I am a
20     Canadian.
21  1246                 Thank you.
22     --- Applause / Applaudissements
23  1247                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
24     Lawrence.
25  1248                 MS VOGEL:  Our next presenter this


 1     evening is Josee Lebel.
 3  1249                 MS JOSEE LEBEL:  So I just wanted to
 4     start by mentioning that I am 25 years old.  A lot of
 5     this seems to resolve around people saying that it is
 6     for more mature audiences than myself.  I am living
 7     proof that people of all ages do listen to the CBC.
 8  1250                 Just to give you a little bit of
 9     history, at 15 years old, I was a liaison officer for
10     my high school in North Bay, Ontario, and I spoke about
11     high school activities to the broadcaster in Sudbury,
12     called CBON, told them all kinds of high school
13     activities that were going on.  This was really
14     important because as a French Canadian born outside of
15     Quebec, a lot of people don't realize that other than
16     CBC we don't have a voice, period.
17  1251                 If you want to listen to French
18     programming, and if the CBC disappears, you are
19     basically going to be listening to things that are
20     broadcast right out of Montreal that revolve strictly
21     around Quebecers, and programs such as "l'accent
22     francophone", which is on TV, is really exciting for us
23     because we get to listen to people who have our accent. 
24     It is very rare to have a TV show that features that.
25  1252                 At the age of 20, I travelled


 1     throughout northern Ontario.  As I tired of my tapes, I
 2     learned of other interesting people out there through
 3     CBC radio.  One particular -- I don't remember half the
 4     things I learned in university but for some reason I
 5     remember this Dr. Leaky, who had invented the
 6     flatometre, which was to measure the amount of
 7     flatulence people have in them.  For some reason I
 8     still remember that to this day and I enjoyed it very
 9     much.
10  1253                 I also learned with Arabian Nights
11     because it was broadcast during an evening on one of my
12     travels.
13  1254                 Between the ages of 21 and 22 I
14     didn't have cable, so the only other TV station that is
15     we had was CBC.
16  1255                 At 23, I did a weekly segment in
17     Vancouver on employment opportunities on the French CBC
18     radio station, revolving like I said employment
19     opportunities in B.C. and the Yukon through the human
20     resource centre for students.
21  1256                 So that helped a lot.  I got a lot of
22     calls from people in the Yukon, B.C., from all over,
23     saying that they really appreciated having that French
24     voice again, and that they liked my accent.
25  1257                 My favourite shows last year were


 1     "Twitch City", which I can't believe didn't make it
 2     this year.  It was very funny, again, gauged toward my
 3     age group, and I always get all my friends to gather
 4     around to watch "This Hour Has 22 Minutes" because I
 5     think it is just a fabulous show.
 6  1258                 Tonight, I am here at 25 years old to
 7     speak for the environmental community, one organization
 8     out of the environmental community called the Society
 9     Promoting Environmental Conservation.
10  1259                 Currently, there is a perception,
11     often politically motivated, that the CBC is
12     unnecessary, unneeded and irrelevant.  SPEC does not
13     share those views.  Both CBC radio and TV have covered
14     environmental issues to a far greater extent than other
15     B.C. radio and television broadcasters.  Programs such
16     as "Quirks and Quarks" and "The Nature of Things" stand
17     out for their excellent environmental coverage.
18  1260                 Nor are environmental stories ignored
19     by public affair programs such as "As It Happens" or
20     "The Journal", which have featured in-depth pieces on
21     global warming, salmon stock depletion and other
22     issues.
23  1261                 Local news and information
24     programming such as "Almanac", "Early Edition" and
25     "Broadcast One More" offer a venue for in-depth public


 1     debate on environmental matters.
 2  1262                 By broadcasting environment stories
 3     from different regions in Canada, the CBC enables those
 4     of us on the West Coast to understand and appreciate
 5     problems facing Canadians living in other provinces. 
 6     And, just as important, we have an opportunity of
 7     sharing our concerns with those living in other areas.
 8  1263                 CBC programming should be different
 9     from that of other broadcasters.  Commercial radio and
10     TV is driven by profits.  Information programs on
11     public issues such as the environment seldom attract
12     the same audience numbers as highly promoted Hollywood
13     productions such as "Melrose Place".
14  1264                 Private broadcasters therefore are
15     focused on entertainment programming that maximize
16     audience numbers and advertiser revenues.
17  1265                 CBC is in the fortunate position of
18     not being totally dependent on advertiser revenue and
19     can produce much needed public affairs programming that
20     would otherwise not be available.
21  1266                 As an environmental education
22     organization, we are deeply concerned about any moves
23     to decrease the ability of a national public
24     broadcaster, such as the CBC, from continuing to
25     provide a broad level of environmental coverage.


 1  1267                 Now, I am going to be doing also a
 2     little French segment.  For those of you who struggle
 3     with your French, you may be able to understand some of
 4     it.  I hope that you do.
 5  1268                 La Société pour la sauvegarde de
 6     l'environnement aimerait remercier le CRTC pour cette
 7     opportunité de pouvoir s'exprimer au sujet de la
 8     Société Radio-Canada.  Actuellement, il semblerait que
 9     la SRC soit considérée inutile, superflue et hors de
10     propos, ce point de vue étant souvent politiquement
11     motivé.  SPEC ne partage pas ce point de vue.
12  1269                 Les programmes de radio proposés par
13     la SRC couvrent divers sujets qui ont trait à
14     l'environnement d'une manière plus complète que
15     n'importe quelle autre chaîne en Colombie-Britannique. 
16     Vu du côté anglais, les émissions telles que "Quirks
17     and Quarks" et "The Nature of Things" sont reconnues
18     pour les reportages excellents sur l'écologie et la
19     nature.
20  1270                 Les actualités sur l'état de
21     l'environnement comme le réchauffement de la planète et
22     la réduction des réserves de saumon sont explorées et
23     présentées en détail sur "Almanac", "Early Edition",
24     "Micro-Midi" et surtout tôt le matin aux ondes de CBUF.
25  1271                 La SRC fournit un forum pour les


 1     débats sur plusieurs questions écologiques.  La SRC
 2     permet à nous sur la côte ouest de comprendre et
 3     d'apprécier les problèmes qu'envisagent les Canadiens
 4     d'autres provinces.  La SRC nous permet également de
 5     faire parvenir nos inquiétudes, nos victoires ainsi que
 6     nos défaites aux gens des autres régions.
 7  1272                 L'information suscite également de
 8     l'intérêt sur l'écologie de la part des Canadiens qui
 9     n'auraient pas su comment s'impliquer sans les
10     reportages de la SRC.
11  1273                 La programmation de la SRC devrait
12     être différente des autres chaînes.  La radio et la
13     télé commerciales sont alimentées par le profit.  Les
14     programmes éducatifs sur les thèmes publiques tels que
15     l'environnement attirent rarement le même volume de
16     spectateurs que les émissions Hollywoodiennes trop
17     promues comme "Melrose Place" -- you understand a few
18     English words here and there.
19  1274                 Les chaînes privées visent produire
20     une programmation divertissante qui fournira le revenu
21     maximum.  La Société Radio-Canada a la bonne chance de
22     ne pas être obligée de dépendre complètement sur le
23     revenu des publicités et peut donc fournir une
24     programmation axée sur les affaires publiques qui
25     seraient absentes autrement.


 1  1275                 Du point de vue d'un organisme pour
 2     l'environnement, nous sommes très inquiets de la
 3     possibilité qu'une chaîne publique nationale comme la
 4     SRC cesserait de fournir une couverture médiatique
 5     aussi complète sur l'environnement au sein de la
 6     Colombie-Britannique.
 7  1276                 Thank you very much.  I hope that you
 8     appreciated this.
 9     --- Applause / Applaudissements
10  1277                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
11     Lebel.
12  1278                 MS VOGEL:  Our next presenter is Gwen
13     Chute.
15  1279                 MS GWEN CHUTE:  Thank you.
16  1280                 About seven years ago I was existing
17     zombie-like in a divorce-induced depression trapped in
18     my car on a two-plus hour commute to the University of
19     B.C.  I was not in the mood for the rude humour, golden
20     oldies, or country waling at the usual stations, and I
21     had 690 on the dial, and this changed my life.
22  1281                 I discovered people and programs that
23     were fascinating, stimulating, and relevant.  They
24     connected me to my country, to the many cultures both
25     artistic and ethnic, that contribute to its beauty and


 1     strength and reconnected me to myself because they
 2     reawakened in me the interest that I once was so
 3     passionate about -- politics, environment, social
 4     justice and, thank God, humour, plus many new
 5     interests.  I soon found myself sitting in a parkade
 6     when I should have been in class not wanting to miss
 7     the end of the program.
 8  1282                 Therefore, I wish the CBC to be
 9     properly funded.  My layperson's definition of
10     "properly" is whatever it takes to provide independent,
11     creative, high quality journalism, from all over the
12     country and the world -- independent, creative, high
13     quality documentary production, investigative reporting
14     and a cultural showcase for Canadian performers,
15     whatever it takes to have greater scope and depth and
16     fewer repeats.
17  1283                 Whatever it takes for training, for
18     all those individuals on air and behind the scenes, and
19     adequate job satisfaction and financial reward to keep
20     them there; properly funded to continue and enhance
21     connections with the many fine minds at our
22     universities and institutes.  It gives me great
23     reassurance to know that the wealth of knowledge often
24     confined behind ivy-covered walls is being tapped by
25     our national public broadcaster.


 1  1284                 Properly funded to continue and
 2     enhance our ability to communicate with each other, via
 3     the talk back lines, and two practical suggestions are,
 4     one, a 1-800 easy to remember number, like
 5     1-800-CALLCBC line where viewers or listeners can
 6     reconnect to the program's broadcast area in the day. 
 7     There are so many numbers now, and often given very
 8     quickly and usually when I am in my car, and it would
 9     be nice to have one number you could contact to get in
10     touch with whatever the particular issue or broadcast
11     was so you could follow up on it.  Because I do find
12     the CBC to be a continuing education service for me and
13     my family.
14  1285                 Secondly, a way should be found to
15     publish and promote the programming schedule,
16     especially for radio, but for all CBC programs, because
17     I think if people like myself who don't know what they
18     are missing (inaudible) by subscription, there could be
19     free distribution and popular publications, perhaps a
20     little more popular than "Saturday Night".
21  1286                 I have become very fond of the people
22     at CBC.  The people who work at the CBC must be given
23     greater respect and security because they are the face
24     of the corporation and they are the faces of Canada to
25     other Canadians and to the world.  I deplore the split


 1     screen when the credits are run.  This is fine work
 2     done by fine people.  It shouldn't be just skipped by
 3     while there is something going on, on the other side of
 4     the screen.
 5     --- Applause / Applaudissements.
 6  1287                 MS GWEN CHUTE:  I still mourn the
 7     loss of Hal Wake, Peter Gzowski and Vicky Gabereau, and
 8     I could probably name all the broadcasters when I try
 9     to name my favourites.  They have actually become real
10     people in my life, people that I consider friends.  The
11     CBC should expand its connections to the broadcast
12     journalist and technician schools at the colleges,
13     universities and institutes to provide mentoring for
14     our students.
15  1288                 The CBC definitely should have a
16     children's network.  As a parent and teacher, I welcome
17     programming that will surely be of higher calibre than
18     the World Wrestling Federation.
19  1289                 I heartily endorse the comments
20     earlier about the extent of violence on the screen
21     today and I witness it at school when situations arise
22     with children and we find out that the basis of it is
23     something that they saw on WWF the night before.
24  1290                 When, as President of the B.C. Home
25     and School Federation, our PTA, we heartily endorsed


 1     the formation of YTV.  We were expecting far better
 2     programming, and I know the CBC can deliver, and I know
 3     that there are many children and young people who would
 4     benefit from them, especially those who are homebound
 5     and those children who are new to this country and we
 6     have heard that tonight, we have heard from the young
 7     woman from Simon Fraser about the programs and we have
 8     heard many people all day today how, when they came it
 9     Canada, it was the CBC that really connected them to
10     the country.
11  1291                 I would also welcome this network
12     back into the schools.  Cable in the classroom is
13     rather unwieldy and, again, it would be an opportunity
14     for public institutions, schools, faculties of
15     education and the public broadcaster to work together.
16  1292                 My divorce has resulted in a love
17     affair with the CBC, which has since motivated me to
18     travel to Ontario, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia and P.E.I. 
19     Quebec is next on my itinerary.
20  1293                 To answer the questions posed:  How
21     well does the CBC fulfil its role?  As well as it can
22     under the circumstances.
23  1294                 Should it be different?  Improve the
24     circumstances and then, perhaps, we can have less
25     repetition.


 1  1295                 How well does it serve regionally and
 2     nationally?  As well as it can.  Again, perhaps we
 3     could have less repetition, more scope and depth.
 4  1296                 Should CBC programming be different? 
 5     All broadcasters should be held to high standards, but
 6     CBC must serve the public good and our democratic
 7     interests without regard to profit.  It should be
 8     released from commercial constraints.
 9  1297                 A special role in the presentation of
10     Canadian programming?  Yes.  Support the talent that
11     presents the talent.
12  1298                 I hope the CRTC will seriously
13     consider the very strong desire of those of us who
14     value the CBC, radio and TV, not to -- to not only keep
15     it alive but to enable it to flourish for the benefit
16     of all Canadians.
17  1299                 Thank you.
18     --- Applause / Applaudissements
19  1300                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
20     Chute.
21  1301                 MS VOGEL:  Our next presenter this
22     evening is Karen Planden.
24  1302                 MS KAREN PLANDEN:  Thank you.  I must
25     say before I begin that I just want to make a comment


 1     that listening to everybody it is as though our friend
 2     is on the chopping block and we are rallying around to
 3     make sure that he or she survives.
 4  1303                 When I think of the CBC, and I do
 5     think of CBC television more -- I used to be an avid
 6     radio listener and I have stopped listening to CBC
 7     radio, possibly because of some of the voices that are
 8     no longer on it.  I hope that one day I will come back
 9     to that.  But when I do think of the CBC, I immediately
10     get a picture of myself as a little girl, fighting with
11     the rabbit ears on a small black and white television
12     set.  Absent of cable back then, the CBC was the only
13     channel that came in clearly in the small town in
14     Alberta that I grew up in.  I remember "Front Page
15     Challenge", the Apollo and of course I remember the
16     American imports.
17  1304                 When I think of those days, I realize
18     my own journey about where I come from, the CBC and
19     what it means to be a Canadian.
20  1305                 The CBC is important to Canada and
21     the Canadian culture because it shows us where we have
22     been and how far we have come.
23  1306                 I am afraid it doesn't show us where
24     we are going, and perhaps it doesn't show us where we
25     are going because it doesn't show us where we are. 


 1     When I watch the CBC today, I don't see myself -- I
 2     don't see the 30-somethings reflected in any of the
 3     CBC's programming.  There was "North of 60", but that
 4     is gone.  I find it curious that one of CBC's top-rated
 5     shows would suddenly disappear.  "Beachcombers" lasted
 6     18 years.  "North of 60" should have received at least
 7     half that much airtime.  Why?  Because it was real.  It
 8     was about real people, real stories, real life.
 9  1307                 Now, I don't subscribe to having
10     gratuitous sex or violence on television and I do
11     subscribe to preserving our youth and investing in
12     them.  But if you want to know what to do with the CBC,
13     take the gloves off, stop being the country's moral
14     conscience and quit being so damned American.  Leave
15     the happy endings to them, they do it so well.  That is
16     not to say that we can't have uplifting positive
17     stories.  Let's just make them real and it doesn't mean
18     that they have to be void of fantasy, just take the
19     time to watch one of the latest Canadian films, and you
20     will know what I am talking about. Quit giving us a
21     false reflection of ourselves.
22  1308                 I don't know this for sure, but I
23     suspect that "This Hour Has 22 Minutes" enjoys very
24     high ratings.  Why is the show so successful?  Because
25     it has taken the gloves off.  It is truly one of the


 1     funniest shows on TV and it is one of the few shows
 2     that makes me laugh out loud.  "Air Farce" has the same
 3     effect.  They are completely irreverent and it is so
 4     refreshing, not just because of the humour but because
 5     of the honesty through the humour.
 6  1309                 A couple of years ago, I had real
 7     hope for the CBC.  I watched the news diligently every
 8     night.  My day wasn't complete until I turned in to
 9     watch the CBC nightly news, and then I went to bed.
10  1310                 But lately I find myself turning the
11     channel halfway through stories, watching other news
12     programs and not watching the CBC at all.  When I ask
13     myself why, it seems to me that I am tired of watching
14     the news from an American perspective.  Many times the
15     CBC leads with a Washington story.  Is this truly
16     necessary?  We are Canadian, not American.  Are you
17     telling me that there are not enough Canadian stories
18     to fill 26 minutes?
19  1311                 When you go to the states, you would
20     be hard pressed to even hear the name Canada used in
21     any story.  So who really cares?  Is it the
22     businessmen?  Perhaps.  Then the businessmen can tune
23     in to any other channel and find out about America and
24     the stock market and, if they choose to turn the
25     channel, I say let them.


 1  1312                 I was delighted a couple of years ago
 2     when Perrin Beatty announced the CBC would be strictly
 3     Canadian programming.  I thought, wow, it is about
 4     time.  However, much to my dismay, in the middle of the
 5     afternoon, a rerun of "Three's Company" was on.  A
 6     rerun of "Hanging In" would have been more appropriate. 
 7     Or does the United States dictate what we broadcast on
 8     our airwaves as well as in our magazines and in our
 9     movie theatres?  Will it ever be possible for the CBC,
10     the CRTC and the Government of Canada to stop looking
11     and bowing to America's measure of artistic success?
12  1313                 Last night, as I was preparing for
13     today, I was watching the CBC evening news and Peter
14     Mansbridge talked about the great snowfall in the
15     eastern United States and how New Jersey got a big dump
16     that almost paralysed them.  When I watched "The
17     National" at 11, Lloyd Robertson talked about the
18     severe snow storm that hit the Maritimes.  I will watch
19     "The National" tonight.
20  1314                 I am sure it sounds like I am
21     anti-American.  I am not actually.  It is an amazing
22     country, it's just not ours.
23  1315                 They certainly don't need help
24     promoting theirs.  I am one of the fortunate group of
25     people who have had the opportunity to live, work and


 1     study in the states.  It is this opportunity that has
 2     made me so proud to be a Canadian.  It wasn't long
 3     before I realized that even though our two cultures
 4     speak the same language, wear the same clothes and,
 5     yes, unfortunately, watch the same television, Canada
 6     is distinct, but Canada, the entire country, is a
 7     distinct society.  My friends in the states wouldn't
 8     laugh at "This Hour Has 22 Minutes".  Not because it
 9     isn't funny but because they wouldn't understand it. 
10     Just like I didn't understand New Yorkers fold their
11     pizza.
12  1316                 I was never so proud to be a Canadian
13     as when the CBC didn't censor Alanis Morissette's song
14     on the Grammy's.  That is progress.  That is real. 
15     That is leadership.  Not because a profane word made it
16     through the censors, but because the integrity of one
17     of Canada's leading artists was not compromised at any
18     cost.  That is what we need and that is what we expect
19     from the CBC, the raw, uncensored truth.
20  1317                 A decade ago you could see real
21     people on the CBC television.  Where are they today? 
22     Where are the real women, the women who have three
23     kids, work two jobs trying to make ends meet?  The CBC
24     should not be our country's moral judge.  With a
25     country so vast and divided by so much land, Canada


 1     needs the CBC to tie us together so we get to know our
 2     neighbours, to learn the differences.  Please don't
 3     whitewash our fences.  This means regional stories,
 4     regional broadcasting, regional programming with
 5     national broadcasting.
 6  1318                 Why does the CBC need a third radio
 7     station for younger viewers?  Do we not have enough
 8     stations already?  There are other ways to attract
 9     younger audiences.  Just show them who they are, not
10     who you want them to be.
11  1319                 When you look at the shows that have
12     been successful for the CBC, they all have one thing in
13     common, they were about real people.  The gloves were
14     off and the chips were down: Peter Gzowski, "North of
15     60", "Boys of St. Vincent", "Butter Box Babies", and
16     for that matter "Anne of Green Gables".
17  1320                 Peter Gzowski was successful because
18     he interviewed real people.  "North of 60" was
19     successful because it reflected real people.  The
20     bigotry and the challenges of life were unabashed and
21     out there.  "Boys of St. Vincent" was successful
22     because it was a piece of our history, naked, not make
23     believe.
24  1321                 There is another reason why the CBC
25     is so terribly important to me and to our Canadian


 1     culture.  As an executive director of a cultural
 2     organization, it is increasingly difficult to promote
 3     cultural events on television and radio due to
 4     advertising costs.  Without the help of the CBC, it
 5     would be impossible to reach a wider audience so that
 6     our organizations can become self-sufficient through
 7     earned revenue, our bums in the seats as we like to
 8     call it.  The CBC produces and supports local artists
 9     and arts' organizations.  Without this support, it
10     would be very difficult, if not impossible, for most
11     not-for-profit organizations to reach a wider audience. 
12     This service is a very, very vital part of what the CBC
13     has to offer as a public broadcaster, and I only hope
14     that this is maintained and maintained as part of your
15     mandate.
16  1322                 However, I must say my biggest still
17     remains that the CBC reflects Canadians first. 
18     Canadian sports, Canadian music, culture, news.  When
19     you go to another country, don't you turn on the TV or
20     pick up a paper or listen to a radio station to take
21     interest in their culture?  Of course you do.  So
22     businessmen and tourists can come to Canada and see
23     Canadian culture on Canadian TV without censor or
24     apology.
25  1323                 There doesn't appear to be a forward


 1     vision at the CBC or, if there is, it is not clear.  To
 2     fulfil a vision, you have to first realize where you
 3     are and perhaps what these sessions are for.  So I
 4     would like to take this opportunity to thank the
 5     committee for allowing me to speak this evening,
 6     because I, too, am very passionate about being
 7     Canadian, preserving our identity and nurturing our
 8     culture for the future of all Canadians.
 9  1324                 I can only hope that in the near
10     future I will tune in to CBC once again and grab on a
11     television series to become an avid viewer; or see a
12     new show that tells me what I need to know, not what I
13     want to hear.  But mostly I hope I see people that
14     reflect me, my neighbours, my neighbourhood I live in,
15     tell us the truth, we can handle it, we are
16     30-something.  We are old enough to know when a story
17     is being whitewashed or someone is being moralistic on
18     our behalf.  Tell me the truth and I will decide for
19     myself.  If the CBC wants to be successful, reflect who
20     we are as Canadians, not who you want us to be and the
21     future will take care of itself.
22  1325                 It is said that a mirror never lies. 
23     When you look in a mirror, you might not like what you
24     see, or you might deny it all together, but if the
25     truth keeps staring you back in the face, chances are


 1     you will start to listen, you will start to look, you
 2     will start to accept, change, to laugh at it and
 3     finally to embrace it.
 4  1326                 I know, because after trying to shed
 5     my Canadian roots I realized how much I have grown to
 6     protect them, to embrace them and, yes, to laugh at
 7     them.  Reflect your country that you have been put here
 8     to serve and your future will be self-perpetuating.  To
 9     me, that would be the greatest success.  Thank you.
10     --- Applause / Applaudissements
11  1327                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
12     Planden.
13  1328                 MS VOGEL:  Our next presenter this
14     evening is Mike MacNaughton.
16  1329                 MS VOGEL:  Is Mike MacNaughton in the
17     room?
18  1330                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Apparently not.
19  1331                 Are there any other presenters I
20     wonder, any other presenters who are here who have not
21     been called?
22  1332                 Okay, we will take a 10 minute break
23     and be back at 9:00 o'clock.
24     --- Recess at 2050 / Suspension à 2050
25     --- Upon resuming at 2104 / Reprise à 2104


 1  1333                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are ready to
 2     resume.
 3  1334                 Madam Secretary?
 4  1335                 MS VOGEL:  Thank you, Commissioner
 5     Grauer.  Our next presenter is Eugenia Torvick.
 7  1336                 MS EUGENIA TORVICK:  Thank you very
 8     much for letting me parachute in from the other room. 
 9     When I first arrived this evening, I had absolutely no
10     intention of speaking.  I was coming to listen and --
11     at least spent most of my time in the other room.  So I
12     hope what I have to say hasn't been said more than 200
13     times already in the past.
14  1337                 A lot had been said in the other room
15     about ourselves as Canadian citizens having to come to
16     the rescue of our CBC and I want to start out by saying
17     that I chose to become a Canadian citizen.  Not a small
18     amount of that was with the help of the CBC.  I felt
19     like I knew my country before it was my country.
20  1338                 The first broadcast I ever heard in
21     Canada when I moved up here from New York was a CBC
22     broadcast.  I can't remember the name but I remember
23     the actor in it.  His name was Tommy Tweed, and it must
24     have been a lampoon of legislators or politicians
25     because its theme song went roughly like this.


 1     "Tra-la-la, tweedle dee, there is room for me still, as
 2     an uncivil civil servant on Parliament Hill.  Tra-la-la
 3     tweedle H dee, there is a room for me now, as an
 4     uncivil civil servant in Ottawa-wa-wa."
 5  1339                 Any way, I was taken from that moment
 6     on.
 7  1340                 My profession, I was a musician, I
 8     came to play in the Vancouver symphony, and that was
 9     back in 1957, heaven help me, and in 1959 I was invited
10     to join the Vancouver Chamber Orchestra, CBC Vancouver
11     Chamber Orchestra, which was one of many, many CBC
12     orchestras at that time.
13  1341                 Now, of course, it is the only one
14     left, and I am very proud to say that it is not located
15     in Toronto.  It is located right here in Vancouver, our
16     only live orchestra.
17  1342                 I feel of course that the CBC's
18     greatest tragedy has been its purposeful and indelicate
19     underfunding.  It is just like taking a butcher knife
20     and hacking, frankly.  I spend my time chasing
21     classical music around the radio dial and I know where
22     to find it on Radio Two and on then Radio One and then
23     at 1:00 o'clock in the morning on Radio Canada, and
24     what is happening of course is that the lack of funding
25     is resulting in such things as constantly repeating the


 1     same concerts over and over again.  With every repeat
 2     it means one fewer live broadcast offered, and I
 3     understand that is again because of lack of funding.
 4  1343                 At one time, CBC's announcers were
 5     the envy of all of English-speaking North America. 
 6     They used excellent English.  They used to pronounce
 7     foreign names such as those of composers and performers
 8     perfectly.  There was such a thing as a chief announcer
 9     whose job it was to listen to the announcing staff and
10     to critique and for those who didn't do things right,
11     they found their names and their misdemeanours posted
12     on the announcers' bulletin board for all to read.  Not
13     any more, unfortunately.  Again, there is nobody to
14     correct some pretty awful announcing and pronouncing
15     going on.
16  1344                 It is a very simple thing.  We must
17     stop hacking away at the funding.  We must restore the
18     funding or soon the CBC will be just the same as every
19     other station and Canada will have lost a very large
20     piece of its identity and, frankly, I didn't go to the
21     trouble of becoming Canadian only to see Canada become
22     indistinguishable from everywhere where else.
23  1345                 And that is really all I want to say.
24  1346                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for
25     taking the time to come and say it.


 1  1347                 MS VOGEL:  I would like to invite
 2     Ingo Breig to come and make his presentation.
 4  1348                 MR. INGO BREIG:  Hello.  I listen to
 5     CBC radio a lot.  I almost never watch television of
 6     any kind.
 7  1349                 These CBC radio programs are
 8     important to me:  "Quirks and Quarks", "Writers and
 9     Company", with Eleanor Wachtel, the "Transcontinental",
10     with Otto Lowy, "Basic Black", with Arthur Black, "The
11     Great Eastern", with Paul Moth, "Choral Concert" on CBC
12     Radio Two on Sunday mornings.
13  1350                 Foremost is "Ideas", with Lister
14     Sinclair, David Cayley, Max Allen, I am a fanatic about
15     the show.  I think it is a very important radio show. 
16     It has no equal.
17  1351                 On the other hand, if CBC television
18     vanished I probably wouldn't notice.  CBC television
19     sells advertising time.  This affects what they are
20     able to broadcast.  The debacle with the Driver's Seat
21     television show a few years ago and the autosaurus ad
22     from the Media Foundation is an example of the lack of
23     independence that CBC television has.
24  1352                 On the other hand, CBC radio, I
25     believe, is truly independent.  It has quality, and


 1     independent thought.
 2  1353                 Finally, please do not allow the
 3     government to appoint any positions in the CBC
 4     anywhere.  Thank you.
 5     --- Applause / Applaudissements
 6  1354                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 7     much.
 8  1355                 MS VOGEL:  Is anyone in the room who
 9     was scheduled to make a presentation and hasn't done so
10     yet?
11  1356                 Then I will invite representatives
12     from the CBC to give some comments.
14  1357                 MS SUSAN ENGLEBERT:  Good evening. 
15     My name is Susan Englebert and I am the Regional
16     Director of Radio for British Columbia.  I just want to
17     say once again, this will be my final say, --
18  1358                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Until tomorrow.
19  1359                 MS SUSAN ENGLEBERT:  No, no, that is
20     it for me.
21  1360                 On behalf of my colleagues at CBC,
22     again, I would like to thank the Commission very much
23     for allowing us to be part of this consultation.
24  1361                 I am always amazed when I listen to
25     people talking about the CBC and how articulate and


 1     thoughtful they are, both our viewers and listeners,
 2     and yet again I think it was demonstrated tonight, as I
 3     have said in the other sessions, we are listening very
 4     carefully to everyone's comments and we are -- we will
 5     be in touch with everybody who has appeared here.  If
 6     they have questions, things we can help them with, we
 7     will try and do that and obviously we are working
 8     towards the May hearings in Hull and it should be a
 9     very interesting time for us.
10  1362                 Again, I would like to thank you very
11     much.
12  1363                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
13     Englebert.
14  1364                 That concludes today's presentations. 
15     I would like to take this opportunity to thank all the
16     people who have taken the time and come here today and
17     given very thoughtful presentations.  All of these are
18     very helpful to us at the Commission and will inform
19     our decisions as we move through the May hearing and
20     then into our deliberations.
21  1365                 So, it means a lot to us that people
22     take the time and trouble to come and give these
23     presentations.  I would like to thank everybody.  Thank
24     you very much.
25  1366                 And I would like to thank our


 1     secretary, the staff, the transcriber, and our
 2     electronic technicians.
 3  1367                 Thank you.
 4     --- Whereupon the consultation concluded at 2115 /
 5         Le consultation se termine à 2115

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