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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES SUBJECT / SUJET: PUBLIC CONSULTATION ON THE CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION (CBC)/ CONSULTATIONS PUBLIQUES SUR LA SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC) HELD AT: TENUE À: Gallery II Gallery II Landmark Hotel & Landmark Hotel & Conference Centre Conference Centre 1400 Robson Street 1400, rue Robson Vancouver, B.C Vancouver (C.-B.) March 16, 1999 Le 16 mars 1999 tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668 Transcripts In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of Contents. However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the public hearing. Transcription Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience publique ainsi que la table des matières. Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l'audience publique. StenoTran Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des télécommunications canadiennes Transcript / Transcription Public Hearing / Audience publique PUBLIC CONSULTATION ON THE CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION (CBC)/ CONSULTATIONS PUBLIQUES SUR LA SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC) BEFORE / DEVANT: Cindy Grauer Chairperson / Présidente ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS: Marguerite Vogel Commission Counsel / Avocat du Conseil Susan Englebert Regional Director, Vancouver Regional Office / Directeur régional, Vancouver HELD AT: TENUE À: Gallery II Gallery II Landmark Hotel & Landmark Hotel & Conference Centre Conference Centre 1400 Robson Street 1400, rue Robson Vancouver, B.C Vancouver (C.-B.) March 16, 1999 Le 16 mars 1999 StenoTran ii TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES PAGE Presentation by / Présentation par: Mr. Robert Everton 5 Ms Wendy Holm 12 Mr. Mark Jaworski 16 Mr. Roger Bose 23 Ms Sabra Woodworth 30 Ms Valerie Jerome 37 Mr. Stuart Parker 43 Ms Ellie O'Day 50 Mr. Chris Richmond 55 Ms Annette LeBox 60 Ms Linda Fletcher 66 Mr. Kim Williams 70 Mr. David Catton 77 Reply / Réplique Ms Susan Englebert 84 StenoTran iii TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES PAGE Presentation by / Présentation par: Mr. Morley Sutter 89 Ms Jennifer Sullivan 96 Mr. Harold Funk 101 Mr. Gordon Lenfesty 104 Mr. Stanley Fox 111 Mr. Don Hamilton 120 Ms Barb Brett 128 Ms Judy Fawcett 136 Ms Mary Ellen Hatch 140 Ms Audrey Graham 141 Mr. Paul Ohannesian 145 Mr. Jim Whitworth 153 Mr. Leslie Millen 156 Ms Mia Weinberg 163 Ms Doris McNab 166 Ms Robyn Smith and the Raging Grannies 173 Mr. and Mrs. Ray Walker 175 Mr. Laurie Payne 180 Mr. T. H. Reid 189 Ms Frederica Bolton 192 Ms Shirley Ridalls 194 Mr. Robert Tivy 202 Mr. Iain Benson 205 Reply / Réplique Ms Susan Englebert 209 StenoTran iv TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES PAGE Presentation by / Présentation par: Mr. Sean O'Connell 214 Mr. Clive Court 223 Ms Linda Stedfield 231 Ms Maria Hackett 235 Mr. Nigel Peck 239 Mr. Digby Peers 242 Dr. Olga Kempo 246 Ms Noni Mate 250 Mr. Michael O'Shea 257 Mr. George Laverock 264 Ms Irene Javor 269 Mr. David Lemon 273 Ms Shirley Young 281 Ms Evelyn Parsons 288 Ms Anne-Marie Lawrence 292 Ms Josee Lebel 301 Ms Gwen Chute 307 Ms Karen Planden 312 Mr. Mike MacNaughton 321 Ms Eugenia Torvick 322 Mr. Ingo Breig 325 Reply / Réplique Ms Susan Englebert 326 StenoTran 1 1 Vancouver, B.C. / Vancouver (C.-B.) 2 --- Upon commencing on Tuesday, March 16, 1999 3 at 0907 / L'audience reprend le mardi 4 16 mars 1999, à 0907 5 1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good day, ladies 6 and gentlemen, and welcome to this public consultation 7 on the CBC. 8 2 My name is Cindy Grauer and I am a 9 CRTC Commissioner for British Columbia and the Yukon. 10 3 We are here to gather your views and 11 comments on CBC radio and television. In your opinion, 12 how should the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation fulfil 13 its role in the coming years? 14 4 The CBC is a national public service, 15 broadcasting in English as well as in French. It plays 16 an important role in the Canadian broadcasting system. 17 Today, many elements are constantly being added to the 18 broadcasting system, as new technologies multiply, 19 converge, open up new horizons, and increasingly offer 20 new services. In this context, we want to know what 21 are your needs and expectations as viewers and 22 listeners of the CBC. 23 5 Given that, it is very important that 24 the Commission hears what you have to say. We must not 25 lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public StenoTran 2 1 organization that serves Canadian citizens. In this 2 capacity, we are responsible to you. This is why my 3 fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to come 4 and meet with you to discuss these issues and why we 5 are holding this series of regional consultations, from 6 one end of the country to the other, in eleven Canadian 7 cities, from March 9th to 18th. 8 6 These consultations are designed to 9 give you a chance, on the eve of a new millennium, to 10 express your opinion on the CBC's role, the programming 11 it offers and the direction it should take at the 12 national, regional and local levels. 13 7 Through these consultations we hope 14 to enter into an open dialogue with you and to hear 15 your concerns. Your comments will form part of the 16 public record which will be added to the record of the 17 public hearing on the CBC that will begin in Hull, next 18 May 25th. 19 8 At this upcoming hearing, the 20 Commission will examine the CBC's application for the 21 renewal of its licences, including radio, television 22 and its specialty services, Newsworld and Réseau de 23 l'information. You can also take part in that public 24 hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 25 If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the StenoTran 3 1 specific licence renewals being examined when you file 2 your comments. 3 9 Now, I would like to come back to 4 today's consultations. Please allow me to introduce 5 the CRTC staff who will be assisting us today: 6 Marguerite Vogel, who will be our hearing manager; and 7 we have Sandra Caw and Peter Healey from our Western 8 and Territories Regional Office. Please feel free to 9 call on them with any questions you might have about 10 the process today, or any other matter. 11 10 So that you will all have the 12 opportunity to speak, we ask that please limit your 13 presentation to ten minutes. As these consultations 14 are a forum designed especially for you, and we want to 15 listen to as many participants as possible, we will not 16 ask any questions, unless we need clarification. 17 11 At the end of this session, 18 representatives from the local CBC stations will have a 19 chance to offer their views, as they are naturally very 20 interested by the issues we are discussing here, today. 21 12 Before we start, I would ask Ms Vogel 22 to go over some of the housekeeping matters regarding 23 the conduct of this consultation, and say that we 24 expect we will take a break around 10:30 this morning. 25 13 Thank you. StenoTran 4 1 14 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Madam Chair, 2 and welcome. 3 15 Just for your information, there is 4 some material on the back table. If you take a look at 5 the table, it has the media sign on it, there are 6 comment sheets. If you don't want to comment in person 7 and haven't registered, we want you to feel free to 8 take one of those comment sheets, fill in your comments 9 and leave it with us before this consultation is over. 10 16 I would also remind those of you who 11 are presenting to turn your microphone on prior to 12 beginning. You will hit the white button and a red 13 light will come on and you will know that you are on 14 the air, so to speak. 15 17 I believe those are all the comments 16 I have. What we intend to do is call a number of 17 people to come and sit at the tables, so if I call your 18 name, please come to the table, and preferably in front 19 of a microphone so we will be able to hear you, and 20 then we will have each person give their presentation 21 in the order that I have called you. 22 18 I believe that the following 23 participants are here at the moment. Do we have Wendy 24 Holm? 25 19 Thank you. StenoTran 5 1 20 Mark Jaworski? 2 21 Thanks. 3 22 Roger Bose? 4 23 Not yet -- good morning. 5 24 Sabra Woodworth? 6 25 Good morning. 7 26 Bob Everton? 8 27 Stewart Parker? 9 28 Valerie Jerome? 10 29 Excellent. 11 30 Now I would ask Mr. Everton to make 12 his presentation first. He has to leave by 9:30 at the 13 latest. 14 31 So, Mr. Everton, if you would go 15 ahead whenever you are ready. 16 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 17 32 MR. BOB EVERTON: Thank you, it is 18 "Everton". 19 33 Madam Chair, members of the public, I 20 am glad that the Commission still follows a tradition 21 that was established by Sir John Aird in the first 22 public Commission into broadcasting, that of public 23 consultation. So much of what passes for public 24 consultation today seems to merely be window-dressing 25 -- in fact, conceals seals a hidden agenda that has StenoTran 6 1 already been predetermined. 2 34 I thank you very much for allowing me 3 to go first. I do have to leave rather quickly. 4 35 This Commission is considering the 5 future of some very important issues for Canada, ones 6 which are central, in my view, to the future of 7 democracy in this country. There is different forms of 8 democracy. 9 36 Back during the time of classical 10 Greece, we had forms of direct democracy where people 11 were able to get together in person in order to debate 12 the different issues that were relevant to their lives. 13 37 In the last few centuries, coming out 14 of Europe, the liberal democratic tradition has instead 15 given us a different form of democracy, a form of 16 democracy known as "representative democracy". If you 17 wish to build a society that is based on 18 "representative democracy", then the major factor that 19 you have to be able to compensate for is to provide 20 some form of communication that allows people to debate 21 issues that are not physically capable of coming 22 together in the same space at the same time. 23 38 What that calls for is the need for 24 forms of mediated communication; mediated communication 25 that would connect us all; mediated communication that StenoTran 7 1 would minimally provide access to us as citizens of 2 this country to a very wide range of different views, 3 on different social, political issues, some of which 4 have been under debate for awhile, and many others 5 which are just coming to the forefront. 6 39 To have a representative democracy 7 means that there must be a form of mediated 8 communication that would allow what has come to be 9 referred to as "the development of a political, public 10 sphere". This notion of the public sphere is very well 11 documented in terms of the role that it has played in 12 the evolution of liberal democratic traditions in 13 Europe by Jurgen Havermas -- as my time is very short, 14 I am just cryptically trying to throw a few things out 15 here. 16 40 There are two very basic elements of 17 that public sphere and the two essential ones were that 18 people have the right to get together to meet in person 19 and to express themselves; and as well that there 20 exists a form of mediated communication that would 21 allow those kinds of debates and conversations from one 22 isolated location, be it coffee houses, be it pubs, be 23 it conference centres, be it public meetings, whatever 24 it may be, to allow that debate to bounce off and 25 intermingle and be communicated to those who aren't StenoTran 8 1 physically present. 2 41 Now, that role was a role that 3 initially was fulfilled by newspapers; but later 4 broadcasting has very much come to be understood as one 5 of the forms in which that mediated communication can 6 also take place. From the days of the pioneer press in 7 Canada, until early this century, the press in Canada 8 did in fact fulfil that function quite reasonably, the 9 function of a public sphere, but they no longer do. 10 42 The newspaper industry has undergone 11 a very pronounced shift, with public relations 12 departments of large corporations, PR companies 13 themselves, advertising companies, very much today 14 filling much of the content of newspapers in this 15 country. The commercial aspect of the media has come 16 to dominate over their other interests. 17 43 Even though the newspapers have 18 always are and have always been privately owned, they 19 were also very much motivated by the desire, the drive 20 to fulfil a public function, that of disseminating a 21 range of points of view; and, collectively, all the 22 press in the previous century, and the beginning of 23 this one, was able collectively to supply us with the 24 very wide range of different views. That, 25 unfortunately, is no longer the case. StenoTran 9 1 44 We have the concentration of the 2 ownership of media in this country that has come to a 3 fairly extreme level, beginning when Thompson bought 4 out Free Press in 1980, much more so when we find 5 Conrad Black a couple of years ago buying controlling 6 interest in Southam where now this very opinionated 7 individual controls over half of all the newspapers, 8 daily newspapers that are published in this country. 9 45 There are a lot of cities, many 10 cities in Canada in which it is not possible to buy a 11 daily newspaper that is a local or regional newspaper, 12 that there is no choice that is available in terms of 13 buying one from a different owner that shares a 14 different perspective that is put forward, at least not 15 in this city, which is Canada's third largest. 16 46 Broadcasting, among the private 17 broadcasters we see that much the same process has come 18 about with respect to the concentration of ownership. 19 We find that although it is nowhere near the level of 20 concentration yet of the newspapers, it is approaching 21 that, and it is headed very much in that direction. 22 With the growth of CanWest and Baton Broadcasting in 23 the east, with the demise of WIC out here for ourselves 24 and their probable take over by Shaw and CanWest in the 25 imminent future, concentration, we can see the StenoTran 10 1 concentration of ownership in the private sector of 2 broadcasting very much advancing at a quick rate. 3 47 But both broadcasting and the press 4 long before Conrad Black had become little more than 5 business enterprises aimed fundamentally at generating 6 profit. In broadcasting, it has been the public 7 broadcaster which has played a vital role in nurturing 8 and preserving the existence of a public sphere. 9 48 It is public broadcasting, and I 10 would argue principally public radio, largely because 11 it has been commercial free, that has offered a range 12 of opinion and a range of debate that is the minimum 13 necessary for any vital democracy, real political 14 debate, not that which is fabricated by spin doctors. 15 49 Without a public sphere, there can be 16 no democracy, at least not as we have known it in the 17 western world over the last three centuries. Without a 18 public sphere, a representative democracy simply 19 doesn't work. 20 50 The federal government's proposed 21 Bill C-44, if passed, would change the CBC from its 22 current status of public broadcaster, operating at 23 arm's length as has been the tradition in this country, 24 and all countries where public broadcasters have 25 existed, into a state broadcaster. The proposed change StenoTran 11 1 would mean that any or all members of the board of CBC, 2 the board of directors, could be fired by the federal 3 minister, at any time, without due cause, as is 4 currently the law. Today, to be dismissed, they would 5 have to show due cause. That element is about to be 6 removed if this legislation goes through. 7 51 Now, whether through Bill C-44, 8 through the process of privatization, or through a slow 9 death by endless cuts, the destruction of the CBC, and 10 above all CBC radio, as a public broadcaster is the 11 destruction of the last remnant of a national public 12 sphere, the last national forum for democratic 13 expression. 14 52 I would ask the Commission, have you, 15 ladies and gentlemen, of which I see there is only one 16 representative today that I wasn't expecting, have you 17 given up so entirely on democracy in this country? 18 Does not your mandate as Commissioners, whether 19 explicitly or implicitly, include a responsibility 20 towards the preservation of democracy in this country? 21 The CBC is not merely one more station on the local 22 dial. The CBC is not merely window-dressing in our 23 society. It is not a luxury. The CBC is much more 24 than that. To abandon the CBC is to abandon the public 25 sphere and the ability of creating a public sphere in StenoTran 12 1 this country. To have no public sphere means to 2 abandon one of the last pretences that we are living in 3 a democracy. It is still not too late to preserve some 4 semblance of our public broadcasting system. 5 53 A little democracy, although badly 6 gored through deep cuts, is better than none. 7 54 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 8 Everton. 9 55 MS VOGEL: I would now invite Wendy 10 Holm to make her presentation. 11 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 12 56 MS WENDY HOLM: Yes, good morning. 13 57 I am a Canadian. I am a mother. I 14 am a British Columbian. I am an agrologist and a 15 resource economist. I am former President of the B.C. 16 Institute of Agrologists, former Director of the 17 Agricultural Institute of Canada. I am a former 18 director of Vancouver City Savings Credit Union; a 19 former chair of the board of trustees of Ethical Funds 20 Inc. I am a farm journalist and I am presently Second 21 Vice President of Mensa Canada. 22 58 I would like to direct my comments to 23 the CRTC today to primarily the news and public affairs 24 portion of the CBC, of which I am most closely 25 familiar. StenoTran 13 1 59 For the last 30 years, I have worked 2 on public policy in Canada, much of it has been in a 3 pro bono capacity. I have raised the issues of water's 4 inclusion in the free trade agreement. I have raised 5 issues of water's inclusion in the NAFTA; concerns with 6 the Columbia Treaty as it affects Canada's farmers and 7 British Columbia's farmers; issues right into the 8 agricultural land reserve. Six Mile Ranch; and the 9 Multilateral Agreement on Investment. 10 60 In all of these areas, I am very 11 closely aware of the response of the media to the 12 issues that are raised because, as a professional, I am 13 raising them in a pro bono capacity by and large, and 14 the expression of these ideas and concerns on a policy 15 level are very much dependent on somebody taking that 16 message and bringing it forward to the public. I have 17 come off Bowen Island this morning, and very pleased to 18 be at these hearings today, to make the simple point 19 that the CBC, over and over and over and over and over 20 again, is the only -- one of the very few news and 21 public affairs organizations that consistently covers 22 the points that I am working on, which I feel as a 23 professional are extremely important to public policy 24 in Canada and to Canadians. 25 61 When I look at my list of media StenoTran 14 1 contacts, I have references for CBC reporters across 2 Canada, and I may have two or three references for 3 other news media. 4 62 Without the CBC, I wonder who would 5 cover these important stories and bring them forward 6 with the balance and objectivity and journalistic 7 integrity that the CBC carries them forward to the 8 Canadian public. I do not see other news organizations 9 devoting anywhere close to the amount of attention to 10 these sorts of issues as the CBC. 11 63 I think on a regional level, turning 12 my attention to a couple of the questions you also 13 asked, I think that the CBC has done very well despite 14 tremendously debilitating cuts, and those of us who 15 work with the CBC on a -- quite a close level, over 16 time, have seen the effects of this. I know I was 17 speaking to producers in Toronto on CBC television who 18 were -- had been trying very hard, now that water is 19 raised again with the trade agreements, to do a special 20 on this and simply bemoaned the fact that they just 21 couldn't get the money to be able to do the kind of 22 programming that is needed on this issue. 23 64 During the recent strike -- I am a 24 CBC listener who listens to CBC regardless and have 25 been listening through the strike, but occasionally StenoTran 15 1 have flipped to other news services in the evening for 2 television news and have been appalled at the lack of 3 objectivity in which stories are framed in other news 4 organizations. 5 65 Concerns with respect to the way the 6 search warrant matter was covered with the Premier of 7 this province seemed to me to reflect more the sort of 8 type of presentation that we get from the U.S. news 9 stations and the "Top Copy" type of journalism where 10 you have people with television cameras lurking 11 outside. I think in a 200-channel universe where 12 people are competing with news organizations like Top 13 Copy and CNN's News Are Us, I think that the CBC stands 14 as a very enlightened and fundamentally important 15 beacon in presenting news in a very balanced, objective 16 and ethical journalistic style. I think that is 17 critical to Canadians. 18 66 I think programs like "Cross Country 19 Checkup" -- as the gentleman before talked about the 20 ability of us as Canadians to appreciate who we are and 21 to appreciate Canadians in other parts of the country, 22 and I think programs like CBC's radio "Cross Country 23 Checkup" give a forum for the exchange of ideas for 24 which there is not necessarily a corporate sponsor. I 25 think this is tremendously important. StenoTran 16 1 67 I think CBC is a light in a very 2 important window that Canadians call home. I think CBC 3 is the candle that illuminates the very corners of this 4 country, and the very soul of Canadians. 5 68 As a result of very drastic budget 6 cuts, I think that this Canadian will has been 7 flickering, and I think it is absolutely critical that 8 the budget for the CBC be restored and that we 9 recognize as a people that if we lose this -- I guess 10 it is really a touchstone to our identity as Canadians. 11 It has become that. If we do not -- cannot restore the 12 CBC to its ability to fulfil that role, with the honour 13 that it has in the past, I think we have all lost a 14 great deal. 15 69 Thank you. 16 70 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Holm. 17 71 I'll invite Mark Jaworski to make his 18 presentation, then. 19 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 20 72 MR. MARK JAWORSKI: Madam Chair, my 21 name is Mark Jaworski and I am a freelance writer and a 22 translator. 23 73 My presentation is as much against 24 the CRTC as against the CBC, which I consider to be 25 partners in taxing Canadians to the wasteful exercise StenoTran 17 1 of empowering so-called cultural elite to tell us what 2 is good for us. 3 74 I do not claim to be a viewer of CBC 4 TV. I watch two or three hours a year of it. I do not 5 even know anybody who does watch it. I watch "Sunday 6 Morning" and "60 Minutes" on CBS, some news on CTV and 7 CNN, that is it, maybe three or four hours a week. 8 75 My seven-years old watches some 9 children's programming and my wife sometimes watches 10 religious program or Oprah. 11 76 I used to listen to Peter Gzowski, 12 maybe because of his Polish origin. I used to listen 13 to "Cross Country Checkup", and CBC news, before it was 14 completely rigged into the slow active laxative, using 15 Conrad Black's expression, telling us, "Don't worry, be 16 happy. Our government will take care of you. You are 17 not smart enough to know what is good for you. You 18 just pay taxes and shut up". 19 77 Paraphrasing Pierre Elliott Trudeau's 20 statement, "The philosophy of the Liberal Party is very 21 simple: Say anything, think anything, or better still 22 do not think at all, just put us in power because it is 23 we who can govern you best". 24 78 In a spirit of faint hope that things 25 are not as bad as they seem, I voice my explanation why StenoTran 18 1 I deplore state control of our media. 2 79 First, I was raised in Poland during 3 the Nazi occupation. Members of my family died for 4 mere possession of the radio, spent time in a 5 concentration camps and were Christians, not Jews, who 6 according to many programs on CBC had a monopoly on 7 suffering during Second World War. 8 80 Two, my formative years were spent in 9 Poland during Soviet occupation. We did listen to CBC 10 Radio International news, which was factual, but never 11 too critical of the Soviet regime, much less than Radio 12 Free Europe, for example. Some members of my family 13 were arrested and tortured for listening to those wrong 14 stations. 15 81 In the '70s and '80s, I took part in 16 a public outcry when Canadian government tried to 17 forbid American FM stations (inaudible) and started 18 disabling satellite antenna ditches in the wrong 19 stations. 20 82 Three, once in '80s, I hosted singing 21 group from Poland. They were allowed to have guided 22 tour of the 200 million or so dollar CBC bunker in 23 Vancouver. Some of the members of the group were TV 24 producers from Poland. They were all very impressed. 25 They were surprised that during the normal business StenoTran 19 1 hours nothing was happening in the numerous studios. 2 83 I was acting as an interpreter. Our 3 guide, one of the CBC employees, kept ignoring 4 important question: How many hours of regional 5 productions you are doing here? Finally, after 6 discounting news and such Canadian programs like "Femme 7 Bionique", she had to admit one or two hours a month, 8 including one René Simard show, which I never watched 9 in its entirety, but saw glimpses did not even reassure 10 me whether it was male or female singer. We were all 11 very surprised, and Canadians present were embarrassed. 12 84 During the CRTC hearings, once I 13 heard the CBC's facilities are available to the 14 community groups. As a part of my community 15 involvement, I produce some cultural events in 16 Vancouver. On several occasions, I asked CBC officials 17 in Vancouver to do recordings of the rare performances 18 of Polish folk dance assembly. I was told they do not 19 have a studio time available during the day and cannot 20 allow our qualified volunteers to man the equipment 21 because they did not belong to the approved union. 22 85 Six, from 1986 on I was on executive 23 of Black Ribbon Committee to remind Canadians about the 24 shameful pact of Hitler-Stalin of August 22nd, 1939, 25 which made invasion of Poland by Germany and Russia StenoTran 20 1 possible and started Second World War. Consolidated 2 efforts of Canadians who were refugees from many 3 countries occupied for 50 years by the communist 4 tyrants, raised enough money to pay for a tactful 5 reminder on TV in the form of paid announcement. CTV 6 broadcasted it, but CBC refused under pressure from 7 Soviet embassy. How did they find out that such ads 8 are placed? Who runs this corporation, or this country 9 for that matter? 10 86 Recently, CBC refused to accept paid 11 announcements of Christian Power to change by campus 12 crusade for Christ in Canada. That reminded me of 13 warning expressed, hopefully tongue-in-cheek by one of 14 the callers to CKST-AM 1040 Vancouver open line radio 15 talk show, that we should expect burning books and 16 Christians in the Vancouver Public Library built so 17 close to CBC building as an imitation of Roman 18 coliseum. 19 87 I am for immediate closure of CBC TV 20 operation because of, first, high cost to the 21 taxpayers. It is debatable how much it really costs. 22 I had hard time finding that out. CBC doesn't answer 23 telephones, maybe because of the strike. Canadian 24 Heritage would only give me budgetary estimate of $903 25 million. My MP provided me with a fax page of an StenoTran 21 1 estimated revenues of $472 million, which is money 2 diverted from private broadcasters to illustrate the 3 definition of capital punishment. 4 88 Capital punishment is when government 5 is taxing you on your capital to go into competition 6 with you and then taxes you even more to cover deficit 7 of their ill-fated investment. 8 89 All costs related to CBC should be 9 properly added and should include loss of tax revenues 10 to the municipalities for mausoleums, housing offices 11 and studios of CBC, diversion of capital which could 12 have been used for productive investment, cost of tied 13 selling of ten or more channels on cable television, 14 which are compulsory and seldom or never watched. It 15 would probably be cheaper to provide every viewer in 16 British Columbia who wants to see French CBC 17 programming with a private dish that runs province-wide 18 blanket coverage. It might be even cheaper to mail 19 them VCR tape of all original programming, including 20 "Femme Bionique". 21 90 Chinese viewers in Canada willing to 22 pay for their channels. I wonder how much French 23 viewers are willing to put dollars where their mouth 24 is. 25 91 My estimate is that it costs each StenoTran 22 1 household in Canada more than $100 a year to keep CBC 2 TV on life support apparatus. Let's unplug it. 3 92 Two, CBC is not fulfilling dreams of 4 its makers to keep Canada together and revitalize 5 Canadian culture. It does not, if nobody is watching 6 it, and if it aggravates most people. Once I heard 7 that "Beachcombers" were most popular Canadian program 8 and quickly realized fallacy of it. At that time slot, 9 most Canadians were watching "60 Minutes" on CBS and 10 there was nothing attractive on CTV, so understandably 11 of all Canadian programs this was a hit. 12 93 I had been searching for definition 13 of Canadian culture and still don't know it. If highly 14 paid by government grants artists and producers are it, 15 it does not reach me, or anybody I know. 16 94 Three, elitism of serving small 17 number of rich snobs and opportunists, as well as 18 appearance of either serving the government of the 19 time, or biting its feeding hand is unbecoming of the 20 institution paid by the taxpayers to promote education 21 and well-being of large segment, if not a whole 22 population. Crash courses of political correctness and 23 idealism could be found in specialty bookstores. 24 Airways are too crowded with it any way. 25 95 I hear have more patience for radio StenoTran 23 1 part of CBC, but I would move it to the premises 2 similar to the private broadcasters, forbid them to 3 accept advertising, and make them accessible to the 4 people like most talk shows are. Play some classical 5 music and produce good shows. I just might start 6 listening to them again. Now, they are not even on my 7 preset stations memory buttons. 8 96 I hope that if not you God will 9 listen to my prayer and end at least some suffering of 10 Canadian taxpayers who without participation support 11 institutions insulting their intelligence. If you are 12 not sure, call for the referendum. Would you rather 13 have a hundred dollars tax break rather than CBC 14 broadcasting into outer space? Simply "yes" or "no". 15 Oui ou non, excuse my French. My answer is yes. Give 16 me my hundred bucks now and forever. 17 97 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 18 Jaworski. 19 98 MS VOGEL: I would ask Roger Bose to 20 make his presentation now. 21 99 Have I pronounced your name 22 correctly? 23 100 MR. BOSE: That is correct. 24 101 MS VOGEL: Thanks. 25 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION StenoTran 24 1 102 MR. BOSE: Good morning. I am a 2 member of a pioneer Surrey family. My grandfather 3 settled in 1890 on the property which our family has 4 continued to farm for over 100 years. 5 103 I am a farmer with interests in 6 agriculture, as well as rural issues. 7 104 The strength of CBC lies in its 8 diversity. It is my intention to focus on certain 9 aspects of programming. My presentation will focus 10 mainly on agriculture and the agri-food industry. 11 105 Canada is a vast country born of toil 12 and tears. Our forefathers saw the importance in 1930 13 of uniting this country with the National Broadcasting 14 Corporation. That form of unity is still very much 15 needed today. We as Canadians want Canadian public 16 information. 17 106 The feeling of one nation is as 18 important today, if not more so, than it was in those 19 early days. As the railroad bound us together, east to 20 west, so the national radio network connected us 21 through communications to our northern boundaries. 22 107 Canada is unique and diverse in 23 character. Our communities need a binding force as 24 they enter the new millennium. 25 108 We as Canadian citizens need a sense StenoTran 25 1 of belonging. We need to know that there are programs 2 available, both radio and television, free of foreign 3 content. 4 109 Our programs need to have a 5 distinctively Canadian flavour. CBC should be 6 considered as an essential service. "Cross Country 7 Checkup" presents that unifying feeling. 8 110 As westerners, we need to know what 9 is happening across our country. Often, British 10 Columbians feel isolated. What challenges and 11 opportunities lie in waiting for our citizens? The CBC, 12 as a national institution, should tie this country 13 together. 14 111 The fishing crisis in the Maritimes 15 is as important to us in the west as our fishery, 16 wheat, potatoes, wheat, turkey and eggs is to the east. 17 As we enter a new century, we must not lose sight of 18 the fact that this country has always and will depend 19 on agriculture to feed itself. 20 112 Through the years, agriculture in 21 Canada has seen its ups and downs. The cyclical nature 22 of the industry has seen many farms suffer hardship. 23 113 We live in a communications age. We 24 must learn to use these tools better. 25 114 Radio is still, and I reiterate, StenoTran 26 1 still, a very vital part of that link. 2 115 Communications in both directions, 3 along with widespread public support, can continue to 4 unite this country. 5 116 The Internet presents an information 6 bank never seen before. In spite of modern day 7 technology, the diversity of radio and television, 8 however, is still a very important part of that 9 information network. 10 117 Many challenges have been foisted on 11 the agri-food industry by urban growth and encroachment 12 of the lands. Everything from flood control, air 13 quality, ground water, pesticides and antibiotic use on 14 animals. If there is a perceived problem, we will be 15 sure to hear about it on the evening news. Good news 16 is seldom reported. 17 118 Researchers are reporting 18 technological breakthroughs in studies on everything 19 from agriculture to biochemistry. Much of this 20 reporting is in the form of news broadcasts. 21 119 As the city spreads to all areas of 22 our province and country, up-to-date communication 23 about food production must be addressed. Not only 24 agricultural but rural issues must be offered up in the 25 way that the consumer knows that milk does not come StenoTran 27 1 from a cardboard box or apples and zucchini from 2 plastic bins at the supermarket. 3 120 The struggles of the agri-food 4 industry will eventually filter down to the consumer. 5 Rural concerns affect all citizens of this vast 6 country. More specialized programming with some 7 in-depth and grassroots reporting, would benefit both 8 the consumer as well as the producer of agricultural 9 products. 10 121 Television has taken over this aspect 11 of reporting. CBC radio is also a natural vehicle to 12 carry this type of programming. 13 122 There is more to food than just 14 consumption. Today's educated consumer may appreciate 15 the production process but does not always have the 16 background information to understand it. 17 123 For those that really care about our 18 future generations, and the environment, there must be 19 dialogue. The agricultural community in British 20 Columbia has learned to get along with its neighbours. 21 Legislation has been put in place, and no doubt will be 22 broadened as more discussions take place, between not 23 only agricultural bodies but aquaculture agencies, as 24 well with broad-based community groups. 25 124 In B.C., Bill 22, the new Farm StenoTran 28 1 Practices Protection Act, called the Right To Farm Act, 2 has been introduced. The act has come a long way into 3 mutual understanding and implementation of strategic 4 measures. Broad-based town hall meetings will be held 5 over the next several months and must be widely 6 broadcast in order to be effective. The purpose of 7 these meetings is to inform and have dialogue with 8 those parties affected. 9 125 Many residents have no knowledge of 10 such legislation, nor do they realize the importance of 11 processes taking place that affects the food chain for 12 many years to come. Knowledge of the nature of our 13 present and future food supplies and how they will 14 affect consumers is crucial. 15 126 A regularly scheduled radio program 16 dealing with agri-food issues would be a vehicle by 17 which we could keep the listener informed. 18 127 Along with the quick fix of our 19 morning coffee comes the up-to-date report on the state 20 of the world affairs, the morning news. This form of 21 communication widens our interest as well as knowledge 22 about world affairs. It does not, however, go into 23 in-depth studies about some very crucial matters. 24 Programs such as "This Morning" on national radio, or 25 "Almanac", are trying to address some of these very StenoTran 29 1 important issues. "Canadian Gardener" on CBC TV is a 2 very informative and interesting show. 3 128 News has come a long way since its 4 inception, but does not appear to go into any in-depth 5 studies about agriculture and aquaculture. 6 129 As Canadians, we deserve to be 7 informed about our food supplies -- 8 130 MS VOGEL: Mr. Bose, you are over our 9 the 10-minute limit, I wonder if you could wrap up? 10 131 MR. BOSE: Okay. I will go to my 11 last page. 12 132 MS VOGEL: Thank you. 13 133 MR. BOSE: In-depth programming 14 dealing with agriculture, the agri-food industry and 15 fish farming should be enhanced. In the past, radio 16 has offered this type of programming. We have the 17 resources and the expertise to do it again in the 18 future. Let us have the consideration for these very 19 important aspects of communication as we reach out to 20 the new millennium. 21 134 The CBC cannot be all things to all 22 people. There is no single solution to modern-day 23 communication needs. Let the CBC have that mandate. 24 135 Thank you. 25 136 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. StenoTran 30 1 Bose. 2 137 MS VOGEL: I invite Sabra Woodworth 3 to make her presentation now. 4 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 5 138 MS WOODWORTH: Good morning. 6 139 I thank you for having this forum and 7 I am here pretty much as a Canadian citizen. 8 140 I would like to address some 9 significant parallels between our country and our 10 public broadcaster. Canada's sense of identity has 11 never been strong at the best of times. Indeed, we 12 have always struggled to have even a semblance of a 13 national identity. What is Canadian? 14 141 When I was growing up in the '60s and 15 heard of the dilemma of our Canadian identity, and as 16 well having Margaret Atwood articulate that a most 17 central theme of Canadian writing was survival, well, 18 it seemed then that we were on the threshold of finally 19 getting past the very first stages of just being; but 20 now, nearly four decades later, the beat goes on does 21 appear to be at the core of our very national 22 character. 23 142 Canadians are a modest people. More 24 likely than almost any other perhaps to underrate 25 themselves, sell themselves short, allow others to StenoTran 31 1 dominate, even sometimes shoot themselves in both feet. 2 143 Maybe in our hearts we sense our 3 inevitable fate and accept that we are a thinly 4 scattered population across a vast area, tenuous at the 5 best of times, and that next to all those other forces 6 in this world we are not a strong or unified force. It 7 is quite amazing, in fact, that we even manage to 8 exist. 9 144 Perhaps we know we can expect to be 10 dominated by our giant neighbour. Perhaps we have 11 accepted that we expect to be predominantly 12 foreign-owned and have our media overwhelmingly 13 foreign. We have always struggled to know ourselves. 14 So it seems we expect that, too, but it doesn't mean we 15 don't need to know ourselves. 16 145 Do Canadians need a national public 17 broadcaster? Rex Murphy's question on "Cross Country 18 Checkup" this past Sunday has been answered so many 19 times over the past six decades with a resounding "yes" 20 that it's impossible not to wonder why, still, somehow, 21 we haven't found a way to safeguard this most precious 22 of our cultural inheritances. 23 146 Mark Raboy (ph) reports that Europe 24 has done much better than ourselves in identifying 25 "appropriately funded public service broadcasting as StenoTran 32 1 essential to the functioning of the media in a 2 democratic society". 3 147 He further comments that we confuse 4 any kind of criticism of the CBC or its management with 5 our basic endorsement of the institution itself. He 6 says it is next to impossible to address the needs of 7 change in the CBC if we do not first "as a society 8 solemnly recognize a priori, the inviolability of the 9 public service function of our cultural institutions". 10 148 This, he says, Europe does with its 11 public broadcasting. We, here in Canada, still rely on 12 the yearly parliamentary appropriation as if we didn't 13 believe our commitment to our public voice would 14 endure. 15 149 This is part of the national 16 character of being Canadian. One caller on Sunday said 17 it came down to the question of: Do Canadians want to 18 survive as a country? 19 150 What is the future of public 20 broadcasting in Canada? I hope and pray that the 21 future of public broadcasting in Canada is what it has 22 been in the past. It's national purpose has not 23 changed since its beginnings. Why do we have it? 24 Mostly, according to Knowlton Nash, in response to the 25 prospect of inevitable American dominance and control. StenoTran 33 1 Indeed, we have it largely because of two cultural 2 pioneers, Graham Spry an Allan Plaut, who saw the 3 potential for radio, and to media, to forge a Canadian 4 national identity. 5 151 While our identity then may have been 6 precarious, it is no less so today. Like an 7 individual, one's identity, one's country's identity is 8 in the throes of continuous change, and Canadians know 9 themselves from coast to coast, from region to region, 10 hardly any better than they did in the '30s. Back 11 then, according to Knowlton Nash, Canadians were 12 spending 80 per cent of their time glued to American 13 radio programs. Much the same is true today, with 14 somewhere around 80 per cent of our movie theatres, our 15 television shows, our magazines, and somewhat less of 16 our radio programming still being predominantly 17 foreign. We have to ask: Does our media, do our 18 airwaves contribute to our sense of our national 19 identity? Certainly not, when we allow so much of what 20 we see and hear to be reflections of a culture beyond 21 our borders and not of ourselves. How can we expect to 22 be a country if we don't know ourselves? How do we 23 know ourselves if we have minimal reflections in our 24 media? What is there to identify with? 25 152 What is the future of public StenoTran 34 1 broadcasting? The future of public broadcasting in 2 Canada is to fulfil its mandate, to serve this country, 3 locally, regionally, nationally, and internationally. 4 It is to be safeguarded by long-term stable financing. 5 It is to be free of its dependence on advertising 6 revenue, for CBC TV to have the quality of CBC radio 7 and thereby appreciated by a large and loyal audience. 8 So long as we compromise public broadcasting, it 9 falsely goes by that name. 10 153 We cannot criticize CBC TV as a 11 public broadcaster for failing to draw audiences when, 12 in fact, it is not what we represent it to be. It is 13 commercial TV. It must be devoted to public service 14 rather than to private profit. 15 154 The future of public broadcasting in 16 Canada is to at least have its funding doubled to help 17 stop the erosion of our Canadian identity that is 18 taking place at every turn. 19 155 When we think of public service, we 20 think of education, schools, universities, hospitals, 21 roads, parks. It is true we are at a new era of only 22 the marketplace matters and the bandwagon of private 23 enterprise is attracting more people than ever before, 24 so many in fact that we risk forgetting our distinctive 25 Canadian public conscience that has truly made us what StenoTran 35 1 we are. 2 156 If we lose our social values, our 3 community awareness, we lose ourselves. We are our 4 communities. We must listen to each other. 5 157 The CBC is our community voice. Any 6 Canadian who has not yet come to appreciate how the CBC 7 is there for them has a superlative discovery in store 8 for them. 9 158 It is only a shame that every citizen 10 in this country does not know and celebrate how our 11 very best people, Canadians in all walks of life, 12 neuropsychologists, geologists, educators, politicians, 13 farmers, musicians, sports personalities, are 14 interviewed daily and can be heard on any number of the 15 shows across this country. Where else can one so 16 easily turn for a discussion of ideas, for intelligent 17 dialogue, for debate, to hear diverse views? Our 18 public, our community voice, we need it, like never 19 before. 20 159 The future of public broadcasting, 21 when we think to address the problem of public 22 broadcasting, we misplace our concern. The problem is 23 not with the public broadcaster; it is with the 24 political will, the political conviction that very 25 wrong-headedly fails to fulfil its own major public StenoTran 36 1 service role and give us what our finest cultural 2 inheritance is. 3 160 If this corporation could have its 4 own self-chosen leadership, there would be no problem. 5 All the solutions have been found for funding, for 6 innovation, for increasing audiences, for diversifying. 7 If we have entered a new era of niche programming, very 8 well, public broadcasting can expand to have a dozen 9 niches on the dial. Why only Radio One and Radio Two? 10 161 MS VOGEL: Ms Woodworth, we are past 11 the 10 minutes. Could you wrap up, please? 12 162 MS WOODWORTH: Okay. I would just 13 suggest that -- I would say a youth radio or an 14 international public broadcasting that -- public 15 broadcasting from all of the world, I think we could 16 easily support this idea of one point on the dial is 17 madness. We need everybody to hear Canadians. 18 163 We have to find another way of 19 choosing the management; another way for funding; and I 20 will sum up by saying CBC makes me proud to be a 21 Canadian. I think it is our finest national 22 accomplishment. 23 164 Thank you. 24 165 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 25 Woodworth. StenoTran 37 1 166 I just want to remind people that 2 there will be further opportunities to submit written 3 comments in full. If there is anything you feel you 4 didn't have a chance to say today, or further thoughts 5 you might have, certainly submit them and they will 6 form part of the record and they will inform our 7 decision on the renewals. 8 167 Thank you. 9 168 MS VOGEL: I would invite Valerie 10 Jerome to present next. 11 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 12 169 MS VALERIE JEROME: Good morning, 13 Commissioner Grauer and Ms Vogel, ladies and gentlemen. 14 My remarks are particular to CBC television. 15 170 In 1951, my family moved to North 16 Vancouver from Winnipeg. My father, a CN railway 17 porter was barred from working for our government 18 railway in any other -- in any capacity other than as a 19 porter. Petitions in our neighbourhood attempted to 20 bar us from living in North Vancouver. And, as a 21 seven-year old, I went across the street that September 22 for the first day of school only to be turned back in a 23 hail of stones that stung our legs and our heads and an 24 even greater hail of racial epithets that broke our 25 hearts. StenoTran 38 1 171 Throughout my life I have been turned 2 away because I am a member of a visible minority and, 3 more often than not, just as in my first day at 4 Ridgeway School, my exclusion has been sanctioned by 5 our national institutions, be they CN Rail, our public 6 schools, or the CBC. 7 172 In 1991, I was the designated Green 8 Party spokesperson to speak in the debate being hosted 9 by CBC television. For a different reason, doors were 10 slammed, not because I was a visible minority but 11 because I represented a political minority, a political 12 minority that was fundamentally different from all 13 other parties in B.C. 14 173 The debate featured the two largest 15 parties, the NDP and the Social Credit. The B.C. 16 Liberal Party was able to exert pressure. We had been 17 to court but they, the Liberals, were successful, even 18 though they sat at 3 per cent in the polls. 19 174 CBC negotiated to include the 20 Liberals, but the Greens, despite being one of only 21 four parties fielding enough candidates to form a 22 majority government, having more than double all the 23 other small parties' candidates in that election 24 combined, we had to resort to going to court and to 25 standing outside the debate protesting at CBC. StenoTran 39 1 175 Just as my first day at Ridgeway 2 School, the government this time in the person of its 3 public broadcaster, instead of its public education 4 system, went so far as to contest our application to be 5 in the debate and then seek punitive court costs 6 against us in order to further punish us for having the 7 audacity to demand nothing more than to be treated 8 equally. 9 176 The CBC got off on a technicality, 10 calling it a leaders' debate, and one of the things 11 that -- and one of the things that is so unique about 12 Green Parties, making Green Parties unique all over the 13 world, is that Greens do not call their spokespersons 14 their leaders. 15 177 In his reasons for judgment, Justice 16 Colver of the Supreme Court trusted the sincerity of 17 CBC's lawyers and suggested this problem could be 18 simply remedied by the party calling its spokesperson 19 their leader. 20 178 Now, a lot has happened since 1991. 21 There is a greater concentration of ownership of the 22 media than ever before in Canada and these owners are 23 exerting their authority more publicly and more 24 unabashedly than ever before, i.e., David Black, the 25 owner of the largest chain of community newspapers in StenoTran 40 1 B.C., whose recent decision to prohibit any of his 2 papers' editors from expressing their views on a recent 3 government initiative -- sorry, I have lost a page. 4 179 As time goes on, our media is focused 5 more and more on parroting the views of this country's 6 elites and stifling the opinions of its minorities. 7 Note the recent events of police violence against the 8 anti-APEC protesters and the recent decision by the 9 Supreme Court that Canada's Election Act is so 10 discriminatory against political parties that it 11 violates the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. 12 180 It is evident that our society's 13 elites feel freer in these times to run roughshod over 14 the rights of minorities, knowing that there is a less 15 vibrant press to question their actions. 16 181 To my disgust, the CBC has forgotten 17 its mandate, which is to reflect all Canadians back to 18 themselves. 19 182 Last November, CBC engaged in secret 20 negotiations with this province's four largest 21 political parties, which culminated in the organizing 22 of a televised debate. The Green Party in 1993, based 23 on a CBC request, had changed its own internal rules so 24 as to elect a party leader. We were, nonetheless, 25 pleased that the CBC dropped the requirement, changed StenoTran 41 1 its standards so that political parties could send any 2 one of their choice, whether they were called the 3 leader or not. They did so in this case in order to 4 accommodate former Premier Bill Vander Zalm, now 5 president and interim spokesperson for the Reform Party 6 of B.C. 7 183 There is no question that Mr. Vander 8 Zalm's uniquely racist, fearmongering views on the B.C. 9 government's Nisga'a treaty and on the Nisga'a people 10 themselves added spice to the debate. 11 184 Yet, once again, the CBC unilaterally 12 excluded the Green Party from this debate. Like the 13 B.C. Liberals in 1991, and the Reform Party in 1998, 14 the Green Party holds no seats in the legislature. 15 Like the governing New Democrats in 1998, on the day of 16 the debate, the Greens were silting at 11 per cent in 17 the polls. CBC executives, however, would not even 18 agree to meet with the Green Party regarding this 19 debate. Instead, they sided once again with our 20 society's bullies and elites. In fact, they went so 21 far as to come to my place of work in order to film me 22 for a shoddy piece of self-justifying journalism 23 dressed up as a news story, falsely suggesting that the 24 Green Party had but 2 per cent in the polls and held no 25 distinct views on the Nisga'a treaty. StenoTran 42 1 185 In a time when the privately-owned 2 media are suppressing minority views so blatantly, it 3 is unconscionable that our public broadcaster in the 4 pursuit of ratings is seeking to emulate the behaviour 5 of which any broadcaster should be ashamed. 6 186 A public broadcaster should be just 7 that, a broadcaster that represents the Canadian 8 public, a public that is geographically, culturally, 9 racially, and, yes, politically, diverse. 10 187 With the rise in homelessness and 11 unemployment and a resurgence of racism, more and more 12 people feel that they are not full citizens in our 13 society. They are part of an underclass that does not 14 have the right to food, to shelter, a right to be 15 treated with respect and dignity. A true public 16 broadcaster would work for the public good, to see that 17 all people be included in our society's political 18 discourse, instead of being told by yet another set of 19 elites that they do not deserve to have their views 20 expressed, that they do not have the right to have 21 their stories told in the nation's media. 22 188 There is a growing place and a 23 growing need for a public broadcaster in Canada, but 24 CBC in its present form is not a public broadcaster in 25 the true sense of the word. They are merely a StenoTran 43 1 state-funded media organization engaging in a pathetic 2 mimicry of this country's media elite. 3 189 Thank you. 4 190 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 5 191 MS VOGEL: Would Stewart Parker make 6 his presentation now, please? 7 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 8 192 MR. STUART PARKER: My name is 9 Stewart Parker. I am the leader of the Green Party of 10 British Columbia. 11 193 My comments today are -- I am pleased 12 that the CRTC has broadened the mandate of these 13 hearings, but my comments today are specifically 14 germane to the application for the renewal of CBUT's 15 broadcast licence in Vancouver. However, I will touch 16 on some larger issues facing CBC and the CRTC. 17 194 I came to this body for help last 18 November because CBC television violated a written 19 agreement that they had with me, dated April 1, 1996, 20 which stated that they had established a set of 21 criteria, a reasonable set of criteria for political 22 parties being able to participate in debates. 23 195 These criteria were rationally 24 thought out and rationally negotiated by CBC in 1996. 25 They had to do with a political party having the StenoTran 44 1 capacity to form a government at the end of an 2 election. 3 196 However, when I went to the CRTC in 4 November, because CBC had engaged in secret 5 negotiations to overturn the agreement without even 6 having the courtesy to consult with me or 7 representatives of my party, the CRTC informed the 8 Greens that, unfortunately, they could only intervene 9 after a wrong had been done. We had been done that 10 road before. 11 197 We have contested broadcast licence 12 renewals before in the Okanagan and in Greater 13 Vancouver. We have said this is the only forum where 14 we can express our profound concern about CBC's 15 behaviour. Every time, the CRTC says, "You know, you 16 are absolutely right. You are absolutely right. You 17 have been mistreated. CBC has violated the Broadcast 18 Act again but, oh dear, I am afraid we can't turn down 19 their application for a licence renewal. And that is 20 the only form of reaction that we as the CRTC can 21 take". 22 198 Clearly, the CRTC should have at its 23 disposal, and does in fact have at its disposal, tools 24 to require that its licensees behave in a particular 25 way and that if they fail consistently to comply with StenoTran 45 1 those terms that they can then have their broadcast 2 licences revoked. 3 199 I think revoking a public 4 broadcaster's broadcast licence is a dangerous thing to 5 do in these times. It is not my wish for the CBC to 6 lose its broadcast licence. Yet, here I am again 7 expressing concern in the only forum I am able to. 8 200 We went to the CBC ombudsman as well. 9 However, he informed us that the CBC ombudsman cannot 10 act until a wrong has already been done. 11 201 The same is true of the Chief 12 Electoral Officer of this province, who stated that 13 indeed the CBC did appear to be lying by consistently 14 stating that they were not holding a provincial 15 leaders' debate during a writ period, when according to 16 the Chief Electoral Officer it was a writ period and 17 the Elections Act fully applied. 18 202 We live in a society that is based on 19 individual rights and freedoms; but they are rights and 20 freedoms that can only be exercised in our society's 21 commons. In Williams Lake, B.C., right now, there is a 22 shopping mall that has an official "no Indians" policy. 23 We have mobility rights. We have the right to be free 24 from racial discrimination on our public streets but 25 our malls are not considered to be public or common StenoTran 46 1 areas. Our public spaces are dwindling as more and 2 more of our shopping takes place in malls. Our public 3 streets are disappearing as more and more of our 4 province's population is living within the confines of 5 gated communities. 6 203 The media, where we can exercise our 7 freedom of speech, represents a smaller and smaller 8 fraction of our society's media, as CBC audience share 9 dwindles and the commons where our right to freedom of 10 speech applies becomes smaller all the time. 11 204 The problem of shrinking commons is 12 one of the greatest threats our society faces. There 13 are fewer and fewer places where we can meaningful 14 exercise our rights guaranteed in the Charter. 15 205 And the media market that is so 16 lucrative, that is so popular is, of course, that of 17 suburban Canada, where there are fewer and fewer common 18 places where, in our land of gated communities and 19 strip malls, the term "taxpayer" has replaced the term 20 "citizen" "as though our relationship with the 21 government is not one of equals but as though we are 22 relating to the government on some kind of 23 fee-for-service basis. 24 206 An important philosopher once said 25 freedom of the press is limited to those who own one. StenoTran 47 1 Not many of us in Canada own a meaningfully large block 2 of shares in our national dailies or our private 3 broadcasters. CBC is all we have got. But our federal 4 government's legislation, its programs, are destroying 5 the small amount of commons that we have. It is 6 imperative not that we preserve a vibrant, independent, 7 common media, because we don't have it. It is 8 imperative that we restore and create such a media. 9 207 We need a media more than ever before 10 where we can exercise our freedom of speech and where 11 we can engage in meaningful discourse. Our society is 12 also built upon the right of confrontation. It is the 13 basis of our justice system. 14 208 We have decided that it is 15 unconstitutional, that it is wrong for an accused not 16 to be able to face the witnesses who are aligned 17 against him or her. Our parliamentary tradition is 18 based on that right of confrontation, that only by the 19 confrontation of divergent views can we actually find 20 and seek the truth. That is the basis of Question 21 Period. That is why the Opposition faces the 22 government. It is because, through this adversarial 23 process, this is how we come to an understanding of the 24 truth. This is how we have meaningful discourse. 25 209 In 1996, in the provincial election StenoTran 48 1 something very disturbing happened. An exclusivity 2 agreement was reached between BCTV and this province's 3 five largest parties, not to just guarantee BCTV the 4 right -- the opportunity to hold the only provincial 5 leaders' debate, but prohibiting that debates' 6 participants from being able to confront or be 7 confronted by political parties not party to this 8 agreement. This is a horrifying precedent. 9 210 What it means is that our country's 10 elites can enter into contractual relationships with 11 other elites in order to stifle and end meaningful 12 political discourse in this country. 13 211 It was therefore with much sadness 14 that I saw CBC, who had taken the moral high ground in 15 1996 and tried to develop a set of standards for 16 inclusion in the debates, that they had abandoned these 17 standards to a cowardly process of backroom 18 negotiations to which the public was not party and to 19 which other political parties were not party. It is a 20 very disturbing phenomenon. It is something that the 21 CRTC must address. It is something that someone must 22 address. 23 212 But the courts are afraid to deal 24 with this issue. The CBC ombudsman has not even 25 responded to our complaint. The CRTC states, "Our StenoTran 49 1 hands our tied. It would be against the public 2 interest to deny CBC a broadcast licence, therefore, we 3 are not going to take a role in enforcing the law or in 4 maintaining some semblance of standards for political 5 discourse in this country". 6 213 It is my belief that Canada 7 desperately needs a public broadcaster. I am part of a 8 growing political minority of young people who do not 9 know where to look for news that reflects their 10 concerns and their issues; and CBC, they do not feel, 11 is a place that they can look, after the shameful 12 behaviour, which culminated in me being physically 13 assaulted by a CBC crew and dragged bodily out of the 14 debate when I attempted to protest what was taking 15 place. 16 214 MS VOGEL: Mr. Parker, we are passed 17 the 10 minutes. 18 215 MR. STUART PARKER: I think that is a 19 great time to conclude. 20 216 I will just wrap up by saying I hope 21 that the CRTC can address this issue and if it feels 22 that within the confines of the Broadcast Act it 23 cannot, then I would suggest that it follow the 24 tradition set down by Thomas Berger's Commission on the 25 Northern Gas Pipeline and demand that the government StenoTran 50 1 expand its mandate so it can deal with these issues of 2 profound concern to all of us. 3 217 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 4 Parker. 5 218 I would invite Ellie O'Day to make 6 her presentation next. 7 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 8 219 MS ELLIE O'DAY: Thank you for this 9 opportunity this morning. 10 220 I am Executive Director of Pacific 11 Music Industry Association and also the chair of the 12 Vancouver Cultural Alliance. 13 221 When I first immigrated to Canada in 14 1971, in some ways, the CBC became my mother in the way 15 that maybe an exchange student adopts a surrogate 16 mother. 17 222 My new Canadian habits of humour, of 18 language, of assumptions, of politics, and even my 19 celebrities were faced in the '70s and '80s largely by 20 exposure to CBC radio and somewhat by CBC television. 21 I also read a lot of periodicals, attended lectures and 22 performances, but I got a little bit of all of that 23 every day through the CBC. 24 223 The CBC exposed these things. They 25 made me think. I had my preferences, but even the StenoTran 51 1 shows that didn't directly interest me had reason for 2 being -- an integrity. 3 224 A country's public broadcaster 4 becomes the living archive of its work. It carries the 5 pulse of its existence in discussion, in performance, 6 critique, drama and comedy. This cannot be driven by 7 market forces which look for the lowest common 8 denominator. 9 225 Although Canada does support its 10 public broadcaster better than some countries, it is 11 only a fourth of what Switzerland pays for their 12 broadcaster, or perhaps half of what the U.K. spends. 13 226 The CBC is not about being most 14 popular, it is about being the most consequential with 15 resonance. It is about honesty. From the CBC, I 16 expect information and art presented with intelligence, 17 respect, with depth, insight, humour and sensitivity. 18 227 Budget cuts have undone much of CBC's 19 finest programming. Currently, CBC television does not 20 really have a regular showcase for new Canadian music 21 performers. Variety television has been amongst the 22 victims of budget cuts. The CBC should definitely be 23 investing in new Canadian drama and comedy, documentary 24 and animation, but little is left for music and other 25 performing arts. StenoTran 52 1 228 This past fall, Pacific Music 2 Industry Association co-produced the first West Coast 3 Music Awards with CBC Television British Columbia as a 4 regional broadcast. This should also be seen across 5 Canada. But a few music specials a year are not enough 6 to really show Canadians the wealth of the talent in 7 this country. 8 229 And don't expect the specialty music 9 stations to take up the slack. Not every artist can 10 afford a $30,000 video, or fit neatly into the charts. 11 Those Canadian songwriters and performers who find 12 their only broadcast exposure on CBC radio rarely would 13 be seen on commercial television networks or even 14 specialty stations. 15 230 CBC should have the funding to build 16 a Canadian programming schedule. It is important that 17 the many cultures that make up Canada are reflected in 18 its programming, and that the regions become part of 19 the production network in order to bring the view of 20 each region to the country as a whole. 21 231 In the case of CBC television, many 22 argue that the emergence of dozens of new specialty 23 cable stations have replaced the need for a public 24 broadcaster. Although more variety is certainly 25 available, most are grossly underfunded and StenoTran 53 1 underdeveloped, still dependent upon advertising and 2 corporate dollar and inclination. 3 232 Private broadcasters are already 4 accessing half their budgets from their licence 5 mandated drama -- I am going to restate that -- I got 6 that turned around. 7 233 Private broadcasters are already 8 accessing half their budgets for their licence mandate, 9 the drama, from public funding, from Telefilm, through 10 provincial programs, through tax credits, and even now 11 the possibility of through the CBC budget itself. 12 234 The role of a public broadcaster is 13 to feed Canadian intelligence, showcasing Canadian 14 talent, as researchers, thinkers, writers, and 15 performers. 16 235 Instead of slashing CBC budgets, we 17 should be contributing to our cultural health with the 18 commitment to programming that is a mirror to Canadian 19 culture. 20 236 The building on Hamilton Street 21 should once again be a beehive of West Coast talent, 22 from producers and writers, to art directors and 23 editors, actors and musicians. 24 237 Perhaps instead of a new Radio Three 25 we need to see a new commitment to regional production, StenoTran 54 1 to Canadian talent and to quality. Instead of 2 allocating part of CBC's budget to the Canadian 3 Television Fund, let's see a reopening of news bureaus 4 and budgets to commit to creation and production 5 throughout Canada. 6 238 Thank you. 7 239 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 8 O'Day. 9 240 MS VOGEL: Would Chris Richmond come 10 forward and make his presentation now, please. 11 241 While Mr. Richmond is getting 12 settled, I would invite Annette LeBox to come to a 13 microphone. 14 242 MS ANNETTE LeBOX: Thank you. Good 15 morning. My name is Annette LeBox, I am from Maple 16 Ridge -- can you hear? 17 243 MS VOGEL: I am sorry, Ms LeBox, I 18 didn't mean for you to start your presentation now. I 19 just meant to indicate that you could be up at a 20 microphone and right after Mr. Richmond. 21 244 MS ANNETTE LeBOX: Thank you. 22 245 MS VOGEL: Mr. Richmond, go ahead 23 when you are ready, please. 24 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 25 246 MR. CHRIS RICHMOND: Thanks so much StenoTran 55 1 for the CRTC being here. We enjoy exercising our 2 democratic rights. 3 247 I have a very short presentation. 4 248 My background, I am 65 years old, 5 educated in B.C. and have lived and worked in many 6 major cities across Canada. Socially, I come from the 7 so-called middle class and many of my colleagues are 8 skilled tradespersons or professionals. 9 249 My career has included a number of 10 disciplines, but mostly in various aspects of 11 commercial banking. I have also spent quite a bit of 12 time in voluntary work, generally associated with 13 minority groups in Canada. 14 250 I have been lucky enough to enjoy 15 listening to, in an on-and-off mode, that is where I am 16 working and I am supposed to be working, but I like to 17 listen, and so it is intermediate listening to the CBC 18 radio, particularly the FM or Radio Two, over a number 19 of years starting in 1986, when I got my own office. 20 251 I have shown this memorandum at least 21 to 10 of my colleagues and estimate that 40 per cent of 22 the people that I showed my memorandum to do not listen 23 to the CBC or any part of it and have received 24 enthusiastic support and encouragement to make this 25 presentation. StenoTran 56 1 252 That is a bit of background. Now, my 2 major concern is that the public broadcasting function 3 in Canada remain strong and free of political 4 influence. Perhaps the board of directors of the CBC 5 should report to a standing committee of the House and 6 not to a single ministry. I support the notion that an 7 increase in taxes may be necessary to ensure a workable 8 budget for all functions of the broadcasting 9 corporation. 10 253 Because my experience with the CBC 11 lies in radio programming, my remarks concern this 12 function. 13 254 I acknowledge that the television 14 side probably has many more viewers and is open to much 15 more public scrutiny. I believe, however, that there 16 are common factors in developing a public policy or 17 vision which can encompass most of the CBC's 18 broadcasting function. 19 255 In my opinion, the major role for the 20 CBC is to provide a communications service which 21 reflects, supports, and encourages the social, economic 22 and commercial cultures of Canada, because I believe 23 there are many forms of cultures. Nobody wants to 24 speak about commercial because it is a dirty words, but 25 it exists, it has its own life and should be reflected StenoTran 57 1 I believe. 2 256 It should not be all things to all 3 people. It should provide a very healthy alternative 4 to private, commercial broadcasting. Most 5 unfortunately, the percentage of Canadian society which 6 listens to or watches the CBC is quite low, but there 7 seems to be major support for the idea of public 8 broadcasting, even from those who do not profess to 9 listen or watch. This may indicate a general feeling 10 of support for the idea that Canada will not be the 11 51st or 2nd or 3rd state. 12 257 Here are my answers to the questions 13 posed by the CRTC. 14 258 One, how well does the CBC fulfil its 15 role as the national public broadcaster? I think it 16 does a good job within the confines of a shrinking 17 budget. I understand that regional programming has 18 been generally cut back. This may hurt individual 19 investigative reporting and regional research 20 activities in general. 21 259 Looking to the future, should the CBC 22 fulfil its role differently? Well, not really, 23 provided it follows the vision mentioned earlier of 24 supporting and encouraging the Canadian cultures. 25 260 Number two, how well does the CBC StenoTran 58 1 serve on a regional as well as national level? As 2 stated before, budget cuts to regions has hampered this 3 function but, nationally, I believe the CBC has done a 4 good job in communicating Canadian social culture and 5 values to all parts of the country, and a good example 6 of this, of course, is "Cross Country Checkup", which 7 has been mentioned a few times today. 8 261 Number three, should CBC provide 9 different programs from commercial broadcasting? Yes. 10 Because it is the major communications service which is 11 free of the profit motive and can design programs with 12 the previously stated vision in mind. 13 262 Number four, is there a special role 14 for the CBC? And I think again, yes, as mentioned in 15 answer number three, with some expansion on that, 16 mainly the support for Canadian culture could be in the 17 form of funding for Canadian writers, musicians, 18 theatre companies, and assistance in production of 19 Canadian art work. And that is as far as I got. 20 263 Thank you very much. 21 264 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 22 much. 23 265 I think we will take our morning 24 break and reconvene at 10 to 11. 25 Thanks. StenoTran 59 1 --- Short recess at 1035 / Suspension à 1035 2 --- Upon resuming at 1055 / Reprise à 1055 3 266 THE CHAIRPERSON: Welcome back to our 4 consultations. 5 267 Before calling the first presenter, I 6 would just like to welcome some of the new people who 7 weren't here for our remarks in the morning, and just 8 mention that as we have a large volume of people who 9 have asked to appear, we are limiting the remarks to 10 10 minutes. 11 268 Yes, you can't hear me? 12 269 NEW SPEAKER: We can't hear you back 13 here. 14 270 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I just 15 wanted to say that for those of you who missed the 16 opening remarks this morning, I just want to remind 17 everybody that we have a large number of people who 18 have asked to appear, so we are asking the presenters 19 to limit their remarks to 10 minutes. I won't be 20 asking any questions of substance. If we need to ask a 21 question of clarification, I will, but in order that we 22 can hear everybody we are just going to be here to 23 listen to you. 24 271 On that note, Madam Secretary. 25 272 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Madam Chair. StenoTran 60 1 273 I would invite Annette LeBox to make 2 her presentation now. 3 274 Can you hear better at the back now? 4 275 NEW SPEAKER: That is much better 5 now, yes. 6 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 7 276 MS ANNETTE LeBOX: Good morning. My 8 name is Annette LeBox and I am from Maple Ridge, B.C. 9 I am a teacher, a writer, and I am also a director of 10 an environmental group called the Pitt Polder 11 Preservation Society. The mandate of our society is to 12 protect the wetlands in Pitt Meadows and the Maple 13 Ridge area. 14 277 In November, I had the opportunity to 15 be interviewed by Erica Johnson of CBC television in a 16 cover story on the cranberry industry, called the 17 "Battle for the Bog". 18 278 Several months before Erica Johnson 19 contacted me, a thousand acres of wetlands adjacent to 20 Blaney Bog in Maple Ridge was destroyed for 21 cranberries. Burns Bog had also lost a thousand acres. 22 279 In the past year, Ocean Spray, a U.S. 23 cooperative, was expanding its operations at an 24 unprecedented rate in the Lower Mainland. Although 25 bogs and wetlands in the U.S. are given strict StenoTran 61 1 protection, there was and is no legislation in British 2 Columbia, or in Canada for that matter. 3 280 Our only hope of stopping the 4 expansion of this industry was to let the public know 5 how this product was brought to the table, and the 6 environmental costs of the product. 7 281 A coalition of environmental 8 organizations held a press conference last November at 9 the site of Blaney Bog. There were many issues: The 10 threat to tour Lower Mainland bogs, the loss of crane 11 habitat, the Sandhill cranes are now on the brink of 12 extirpation on the Lower Mainland, destruction of prime 13 salmon habitat, the scalping, ditching and draining of 14 thousands of acres to construct cranberry beds, and an 15 exposé of the cranberry industry in Wisconsin. 16 282 A private broadcaster, television 17 broadcaster covered this story. The news conference 18 was about an hour long. But when we watched the 19 television news the following night, all we saw was a 20 60-second clip. While we were grateful for any 21 coverage, this was very discouraging because we had 22 done our homework. We had spent several months 23 researching this issue and we felt that only a very 24 small portion of the story was covered. 25 283 Major newspapers covered the story in StenoTran 62 1 more detail, but even then the coverage was relatively 2 superficial. Then, one of our local newspapers wrote a 3 nasty piece of work called "Chicken Little Bog Huggers 4 Gear up for Christmas". Luckily for us, Erica Johnson 5 of Broadcast One read that editorial and contacted us 6 for an interview. 7 284 I expected Erica and the cameraman to 8 videotape for perhaps an hour, at the most two, but 9 they stayed the whole day from early in the morning 10 till it was dark, taping parts of the interview in my 11 office where I write and my living room. The cameraman 12 was a perfectionist. This was not about just getting 13 the news out. This was about art. Changing lenses, 14 setting up equipment at different angles, photographing 15 still shots of cranes from my photograph album. 16 285 Later that day, Al lugged his TV 17 camera a mile down the dike so he could videotape shots 18 of me running in the pouring rain along the dike 19 adjacent to the dug up cranberry field. This is where 20 we did the interview. 21 286 We spent a couple of hours on the 22 dike, cold, wet, as he took footage of me looking like 23 a drowned rat, but also took tremendous shots of herons 24 and eagles and ducks and disappearing muskrats, to give 25 viewers a sense of the abundance and beauty of the StenoTran 63 1 place. 2 287 I was exhausted when I got home that 3 day and then I thought, Erica and Al do this every day. 4 The pace was frantic. 5 288 The following day they went to Burns 6 Bog to interview Elisa Olson, and also the 7 representative of the cranberry industry, and all the 8 while the CBC crew was working in the background 9 phoning Charlie Lusen of Wisconsin Wetlands, phoning TV 10 stations all over Wisconsin searching for footage on 11 the cranberry industry and then finding a clip of 12 Congressman Stewart Black talking about environmental 13 concerns. I am not exactly sure how they did it, but 14 they sent the footage to Vancouver by satellite and 15 that became part of the documentary. 16 289 The CBC crew also contacted the B.C. 17 minister of the environment and also Environment Canada 18 as part of their research. 19 290 As we watched the cover story, it 20 unfolded like a drama. The representative of the 21 cranberry growers stated that there had never been a 22 problem with pesticides in the water in B.C. and then 23 seconds later CBC described an Environment Canada study 24 which we were not aware of in which stickleback fish 25 were placed into a stream near a cranberry farm and StenoTran 64 1 within 24 hours 100 per cent of the fish were dead. I 2 was impressed, not only with the professionalism shown 3 by CBC but also by the pursuit of excellence. 4 291 The "Battle for the Bog" was a human 5 interest story, but it also educated the public. It 6 took two days to videotape. The story aired in about 7 10 to 12 minutes. 8 292 Being part of that story is the 9 reason I am here. It made me appreciate even more 10 CBC's dedication to good television. 11 293 Did the story on the cranberry 12 industry make a difference? You bet. Ocean Spray 13 stated that they would not buy berries from either 14 Blaney or Burns Bog. The provincial government 15 announced that they were working with the cranberry 16 growers to come up with some sort of legislation on the 17 industry. The publicity generated by the story raised 18 the profile of Blaney Bog as well as Burns Bog. The 19 publicity has also spurred the municipality and the 20 province to begin the steps necessary to purchase 21 Blaney Bog. 22 294 In April, we had a meeting with the 23 Minister of the Environment. I have used the video to 24 educate people about the issue and have received 25 numerous phone calls from organizations wanting more StenoTran 65 1 information on the industry. 2 295 Just recently, a member of a salmon 3 enhancement group phoned me to request information. 4 Their guest speaker was a representative of the 5 cranberry industry and they wanted information from the 6 other side so they could ask informed questions. 7 296 The cranberry industry believes that 8 we have done damage to them. They call it damage; we 9 call it public education. 10 297 As for the future of CBC, I would 11 like to see CBC continue to do the kind of in-depth 12 reporting as they did on Cover Story. Presently, the 13 CBC is grossly underfunded. If they are to continue to 14 display this kind of excellence, CBC will need more 15 funding. Without it, they will gradually slip to 16 one-minute sound bites that really have no lasting 17 effects on people. 18 298 I hope that CBC can continue to do 19 the excellent investigative reporting that creates 20 change in society. I hope it continues to give a sense 21 of who we are, not just the celebrities but people in 22 small communities who have a story to tell. 23 299 CBC gave us a voice and for that we 24 are grateful. 25 300 Bravo, CBC. Thank you. StenoTran 66 1 --- Applause / Applaudissements 2 301 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 3 LeBox. 4 302 MS VOGEL: I would invite Wendy 5 Fletcher to make her presentation next, please. 6 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 7 303 MS WENDY FLETCHER: Thank you. Good 8 morning. Can you hear me? 9 304 THE CHAIRPERSON: I can hear you. I 10 am not sure if they can hear you at the back. 11 305 MS WENDY FLETCHER: Is this one 12 working? How's that? 13 306 THE CHAIRPERSON: Much better. 14 307 MS WENDY FLETCHER: Okay, good. 15 308 What does the CBC mean to me? How's 16 that? Better. 17 309 There we go. 18 310 What does the CBC mean to me? Well, 19 Northrop Frye said that the simplest questions are not 20 only the hardest to answer but usually the most 21 important to ask, and this is definitely one such 22 question. 23 311 It is harder to answer and more 24 important to ask in the light of recent cutbacks and 25 strikes. At a recent Vancouver Institute lecture, StenoTran 67 1 Knowlton Nash speculated that 21 per cent of listener 2 and viewership has been lost since the technicians went 3 on strike in February because of cancelled, disrupted 4 and repeat broadcasts. The fear now is that when the 5 editorial employees go on strike this Friday morning, 6 it could be the ultimate demise of the corporation, 7 which I think would be tragic. 8 312 For me, CBC is unequalled and crucial 9 to our nationhood. 10 313 Why is the CBC Canada's most 11 important cultural entity, as far as I am concerned? 12 Well, for four main reasons I am going to suggest to 13 you now, but first I would like to make a brief caveat 14 that when I say CBC here I am referring primarily to 15 radio. I have been a lifelong listener and practically 16 weaned on "As It Happens" and have lived without a TV 17 almost since the "Beachcombers" first ran. So I am not 18 comfortable nor qualified to really comment on the 19 television network. 20 314 As to my four ideas of why CBC is 21 important, they are four simple descriptive terms with 22 great implications that describe my CBC: commercial 23 free, informative, educational and a social glue. 24 315 Reason one, the fact that CBC is 25 commercial free sets it far above other options. StenoTran 68 1 Without overt pressure from advertisers, the 2 broadcasting corporation has the guts to tackle more 3 controversial issues; and, without advertising, the 4 networks are more listenable for us. Commercial radio 5 alternatives are dehumanizing with inane chatter and 6 insulting reportage. 7 316 Reason number two, informative -- CBC 8 is much more a global overview than any other stations 9 and, most importantly, it is a Canadian perspective. 10 As Peter Mansbridge has said, the CBC is the nation's 11 homegrown, highly-trained eyes and ears on the rest of 12 the world. This is another reason why the bureau 13 closures in Mexico City, Paris and Cape Town are even 14 more unfortunate because we won't get the same sort of 15 perspective. 16 317 In addition, CBC has more 17 comprehensive national, regional and local news than 18 other radio alternatives. 19 318 Informative, yes. Educational, 20 definitely. I have always claimed that I have learnt 21 more from CBC than all my years of formal education. 22 That CBC educates by sparking curiosity and fulfilling 23 it is as evident on all three networks. CBC expands 24 cultural horizons while entertaining, and its 25 programming stimulates critical thought through StenoTran 69 1 in-depth reportage. Programs like "Ideas", "The Arts 2 Tonight" and "Quirks and Quarks", have broadened 3 listeners like no commercial station could. 4 319 Reason number four, the last and 5 perhaps most important and most difficult reason to 6 justify in these globalizing times is the fact that CBC 7 acts as our social glue. It subtly holds our country 8 together. It gives Canadians a sense of identity in an 9 era of global homogenization. 10 320 While it could do it more, it speaks 11 to Canadians about themselves and their country. In a 12 way, it creates national empathy. Different people 13 from different backgrounds in different areas come to 14 understand each other better through CBC. Coasts 15 connect through interviews, submission and letters sent 16 into the stations, "Cross Country Checkup" and "Radio 17 Sonic" collapse geographic distances for people. 18 321 So, what does CBC mean to me? A lot, 19 obviously, because I am up here speaking to you, and I 20 am usually terrified of speaking in public. 21 322 The CBC, like so many things 22 Canadian, is brimming with underappreciated, 23 undervalued, unequalled potential. I think there are 24 many intrinsic and extrinsic factors preventing it from 25 realizing this potential, but that would take more than StenoTran 70 1 my 10 minutes, so I can't go into it now. 2 323 It is more important to focus on the 3 positive and what we need to do. I think the challenge 4 at this point is to convince other Canadians, a hostile 5 federal government and the internal power structure of 6 the corporation itself of the important role of the 7 CBC. 8 324 The CBC is one element that sets us 9 apart as an advanced, developed nation, and I want this 10 fact to be appreciated with foresight, not nostalgic 11 hindsight. 12 325 Thanks for listening. 13 --- Applause / Applaudissements 14 326 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 15 much. 16 327 MS VOGEL: Would Mr. Kim Williams 17 make his presentation, now, please? 18 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 19 328 MR. KIM WILLIAMS: My name is Kim 20 Williams. My comments today on the CBC are my own and 21 two friends who are avid listeners and viewers of both 22 radio and television. 23 329 We are enthusiastic about the present 24 role and program offering of CBC radio, but have some 25 suggestions we feel address the CRTC's questions and StenoTran 71 1 will enhance CBC radio considerably. For CBC 2 television, we propose major changes that would 3 transform it into a commercial-free public broadcasting 4 television network. 5 330 Alan Mason, speaking about the 6 privatization of the CBC last week, quoted from 7 Herschell Hardon's work, "Closed Circuits, The Sell-out 8 of Canadian Television", which found that countries 9 with strong public broadcasting networks have a 10 considerably higher voter turnout during elections. 11 This, he says, points to the importance and value these 12 networks have in keeping the country's citizens 13 informed on local, national and international issues. 14 331 With both Radio One and Radio Two we 15 are delighted with the programming. The "Ideas" 16 series, "Tapestry", "Writers and Company", "As It 17 Happens", "Cross Country Checkup", the "Vinyl Cafe", 18 "The House", and "Sound Advice", are some personal 19 favourites. 20 332 On the whole, we feel that management 21 and producers have done well in the choice and quality 22 of their programming. It is uniquely Canadian and, 23 where international events and personalities are 24 discussed or interviewed, the perspective Canadian. 25 333 Without CBC radio, Canadians would StenoTran 72 1 have difficulty maintaining a national identity and a 2 culture separate from that of the U.S. 3 334 Radio One in particular helps offset 4 the massive impact of U.S. culture and is essential to 5 the continuation of an uniquely Canadian character. 6 335 Radio Two also is a wonderful vehicle 7 for musical enjoyment through such programs as "Choral 8 Concert", "Sunday Afternoon at the Opera", "Sound 9 Advice", and others. 10 336 There is one major gap in CBC radio, 11 and it is the lack of programs for children. 12 Children's programming is offered on CBC television but 13 there is little on radio. Kids love story telling. 14 Programs where the narrator reads from prominent modern 15 children's authors, from traditional fairy tales, and 16 from the classics would find a wide following. What 17 about children's music programs or programs where 18 children can send in requests as adults do? Children's 19 drama is another possibility which would draw young 20 listeners. A CD currently available is "Classical 21 Kids" where scenes from the lives of composers are 22 dramatized. 23 337 This kind of offering would be both 24 educational and entertaining. Children who listen to 25 CBC today are beginning a lifelong habit as listeners StenoTran 73 1 and supporters of the CBC. 2 338 There are also gaps created by the 3 demise of programs, such as "Book Time", "Collection", 4 "Circus", and the "Max Ferguson Show". We have 5 political satire with "Air Farce" and "This Hour Has 22 6 Minutes", but what we lack is an understated humour 7 from such people as Max Ferguson an Alec McFee in 8 "Vacuum Land". Their successors, "Roots and Wings" and 9 "Global Village", are good programs, but we still miss 10 that special humour and the wide interests of Max and 11 Alan. We hope that it can be rediscovered or 12 reincarnated in some form. 13 339 With CBC television, we feel there is 14 much room for improvement, even though there is much to 15 commend. Often, what we see is a replication of what 16 is offered on U.S. channels, including endless 17 commercials, violence, sex, mindless trivial sit-coms 18 and action series. There are exceptions for which CBC 19 television deserves every commendation -- "Black 20 Harbour", "DaVinci's Inquest" and "Nothing Too Good For 21 a Cowboy". 22 340 The various family-centred programs, 23 "Emily of New Moon", "Road to Avonlea", "Wind At My 24 Back", are wonderful. 25 341 Public affairs programs, such as StenoTran 74 1 "Fifth Estate", "Marketplace", "Venture", "Witness" and 2 "Health Show" are all informative and well-researched. 3 342 Other programs such as the "Life and 4 Time Series", "The Nature of Things", justice-centred 5 docu-dramas and news programming such as "The 6 National", "The Magazine" and CBC "Newsworld" deserve 7 equal praise. We would like to see the continuation of 8 this kind of programming. 9 343 What we would also like to see is a 10 true commercial-free public television network with 11 even greater Canadian content and where publicly funded 12 programs such as those produced by TVO and the 13 Knowledge Network are available through the CBC. 14 344 We would like to see the CBC move to 15 more educational programming, rather than focusing on 16 mindless entertainment. We look for thoughtful, 17 well-researched programs that are both educational and 18 entertaining. 19 345 One of the great advantages of the 20 CBC is that it can be received in most cities without 21 depending on a cable provider. It is cheap and readily 22 available. The publicly-funded programs of TV Ontario 23 and Knowledge Network should receive the wider 24 distribution available through the CBC rather than 25 require taxpayers to pay cable charges as well. StenoTran 75 1 Unfortunately, the television reception of many remote 2 communities is only through cable. 3 346 As with the PBS in the U.S., 4 corporate sponsorship could still be obtained but 5 without commercial breaks. 6 347 The CBC can provide an outlet for 7 Canadian films that are often not as successful as they 8 could be because the major movie houses are U.S. owned, 9 show U.S. films and have large sums of money to 10 advertise American productions. For example, the 11 wonderful CBC Telefilm Canada-India-British 12 co-production, "Such a Long Journey" is not receiving 13 the kind of attention it should for these reasons. 14 Canadian films should be featured on CBC once they have 15 finished in movie houses. 16 348 A couple of final comments relate to 17 the current strike at CBC and its excellent Web site. 18 A caller on last Sunday's "Cross Country Checkup" was a 19 media expert from the University of Alberta who felt 20 that one of the reasons for the strike was the drastic 21 cutbacks at the CBC. The CBC has tried too hard to be 22 all things to all people, to compete with commercial 23 television, at the same time presenting uniquely 24 Canadian programming. They have sacrificed in the area 25 of international reporting when, in fact, one of their StenoTran 76 1 fortes should be news coverage, including international 2 coverage relative to Canadians. 3 349 News and public affairs must be key 4 to the CBC mandate. Sports reporting can be part of 5 that, especially for prestigious events such as the 6 Olympic and Commonwealth Games, but "Hockey Night in 7 Canada" could well be on commercial television. 8 350 The strike, while inevitable, is 9 weakening the CBC and should be settled soon. 10 351 The CBC Web site is greatly enhancing 11 the delivery of its programming and interaction with 12 its listeners and viewers, including play lists and 13 giving Canadians opportunity to express opinions and 14 respond to programming is worthwhile and should be 15 improved. The site should provide full text of and 16 background details on stories currently being covered. 17 352 In conclusion, we want an independent 18 CBC to be a public broadcaster that seeks to find the 19 truth without political or economic interference. We 20 want reporters to seek more advice from independent 21 experts, such as university professors, rather than 22 focus on personal opinions and emotion. 23 353 We want the CBC to keep a reasonable 24 perspective and not be sidetracked by sensational and 25 trivial issues. The Clinton business is a case in StenoTran 77 1 point. 2 354 The CBC provides national 3 personalities and programs. Rex Murphy, Sheila Rogers, 4 Eleanor Wachtel, Peter Mansbridge, Hanna Gartner, are 5 personalities whose perspective and approach we admire. 6 355 We want to know what is going on 7 across the country, politically, economically and 8 culturally. We want to know what other parts of the 9 country look like, what the people there sound like and 10 what the issues are that concern them. A country as 11 diverse and far flung as Canada needs the CBC. It 12 provides programming that allows us to share our 13 special, regional and ethnic character with the country 14 as a whole. This is a sharing which creates 15 understanding and empathy and unite us in our 16 diversity. 17 356 The CBC knits Canada together. 18 357 Thank you. 19 --- Applause / Applaudissements 20 358 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 21 much. 22 359 MS VOGEL: Could I ask David Catton 23 to come and make his presentation, please? 24 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 25 360 MR. DAVID CATTON: Thank you , Madam StenoTran 78 1 Chairman. 2 361 That the CBC has survived many crises 3 during its past and recent history is no cause for 4 complacency. The CBC has survived only because there 5 have been people even proud of the establishment of its 6 predecessor the Canadian Broadcasting Commission, in 7 1932 who believed in the importance of a national 8 broadcasting service. These people have fought, given 9 their time, energy and resources throughout the history 10 of the CBC to bring into being and to maintain a system 11 dedicated to serving the information, entertainment and 12 cultural needs of all Canadians, regardless of 13 language, region or political persuasion. 14 362 To survive and improve, the CBC has 15 always had to place its responsibility to Canadian 16 people ahead of the concerns of the advertiser and the 17 party politician. 18 363 Private broadcasting has its friends, 19 too. It provides much useful service that has good 20 potential to serve Canadians. However, if we look at 21 the experience of the United States, Great Britain and 22 other countries, there seems to be little doubt that it 23 is primarily to the publicly-owned CBC that we must 24 continue to look for a broadcasting service which will 25 nourish a growing Canadian cultural identity. StenoTran 79 1 364 To have a nation at all with our 2 diversity of peoples has required Canadians to make 3 imaginative and heroic efforts in communications as 4 well as in transportation. It is no exaggeration to 5 say that survival of Canada depends on making use of 6 modern communications technology to maintain the 7 integrity and unity of the nation. 8 365 Our considerable dependents, both 9 economic and cultural, and our powerful neighbour to 10 the south, has its virtues, but it also makes us 11 vulnerable to the core of our national personality for 12 Canadians who speak English, as well as for those who 13 are French speaking, CBC Radio Canada has the principal 14 instrument of communication available to provide the 15 means of cultural survival. It can also serve as the 16 link that will enable British and French-speaking 17 Canadians to remain united. 18 366 These are not my words. They come 19 from an introduction to a book called, "Broadcasting 20 the Canadian Way," by Albert A. Shea, a communications 21 consultant and media researcher. They are from 1963. 22 367 Is it not fascinating that so many of 23 these comments still apply today, particularly the 24 emphasis on maintaining our cultural identity? There 25 is no more effective way of reinforcing our core of StenoTran 80 1 common Canadian values than through broadcasting, the 2 greatest tool of mass enlightenment ever devised. 3 Never before has reinforcement of our common values 4 been more necessary. 5 368 Canada today faces its greatest 6 crisis in history, the combination of national 7 life-threatening arguments over our nationhood and the 8 relentless American cultural penetration. 9 369 The fundamental question for all 10 Canadians whether or not we have the sheer guts and 11 willpower to survive as a separate and vital nation 12 confronting as we do the magnetic and seductive pull 13 from the south, and our own tempestuous French/English 14 strains. As a country, we face today a century's 15 accumulation of these two principal challenges to 16 Canadian nationhood -- the agonizing dilemma of our 17 French/English solitudes and United States cultural 18 domination. 19 370 A triple failure of policy, funding 20 and willpower to protect our culture has allowed and 21 invited the American electronic rape of that culture, 22 particularly in English Canada. Just as the blame lies 23 with us, the solutions of our problems must come from 24 us. It is up to us together to confront the problems, 25 find the solution, and get on with it. We must put StenoTran 81 1 aside our propensity for self-abnegation and nitpicking 2 in looking for some villain whom to blame for our 3 national failure, for we are all in this together, and 4 together we can find the way to achieve our common 5 goals. 6 371 Now, those words, Madam Chairman, 7 members of the Commission, are from 1970, from the 8 introduction to Al Johnson's paper, "Touchstone for the 9 CBC". Can there be any doubt that they apply as well 10 today, perhaps even more than they did then? When one 11 reads Massey, Fowler, Applebaum, Hébert and so on over 12 the years, you wonder if anyone has ever listened to 13 what needs to be done to protect our culture and, at 14 this late date, our national broadcasting system. 15 372 There is not a major country in the 16 western world that does not have its own national 17 broadcasting system dedicated to protection of each 18 country's indigenous culture. The possible exception 19 is the United States where the public broadcasting 20 system stands up valiantly to the pressures of the 21 private broadcasters and elements in government which 22 would like to kill it. 23 373 Pledge nights are essential elements 24 of the United States public broadcasting system and 25 have also come to Canada. Perhaps we should be StenoTran 82 1 considering them for the CBC. Certainly, we adopted 2 some of the worst elements of the U.S. system, the 3 mindless and endless sit-coms, the erstwhile soap 4 operas reminiscent of the worst elements of commercial 5 radio, such as Big Sister and Oxydol's own Ma Perkins. 6 Similar drivel from U.S. television is all over the 7 airways every day. Also, the American passion for the 8 seedy sordid side of life, A&E's series proclaiming, 9 with one of the most stupid promotional phrases, 10 "Murder to Die For, "Murder by The Mile, "NYPD Blue", 11 "Homicide", "Life on the Streets", and so on and so on, 12 and our own Canadian entry, "DaVinci's Inquest". 13 374 There is no high art here, only an 14 pandering to the lowest common denominator. One could 15 hope, though, it may be idle fancy, that somehow we 16 could restore to Canadian television the type of high 17 level drama which Andrew Allan brought to radio. Why 18 should we not enlist our brilliant world-recognized 19 award winning writers to prepare plays for television, 20 similar to what PBS has achieved with its "American 21 Playhouse"? 22 375 The arguments will be put forward 23 that such plays would only appeal to a cultural elite. 24 To that, I would close with one final quote. 25 376 The CBC must recognize that it will StenoTran 83 1 never win the ratings game and that it will not 2 consistently have a mass audience in the foreseeable 3 future. It's standard has to be a qualitative one. It 4 is not the number of people watching a program that 5 matters but the importance of the program and the 6 cultural situation of the people watching it. National 7 news bulletins are one of the unifying events of the 8 Canadian day. 9 377 That, Madam Chairman, is from the 10 report of the committee of inquiry into the national 11 broadcasting service established by the Canadian Radio, 12 Television and Telecommunications Commission of March 13 14, 1977. 14 378 Again, I would repeat my earlier 15 question: With the millions of dollars and the 16 expenditure of endless time, energy and resources, that 17 have been the case for the CBC extending throughout its 18 history, I would ask again: Is anybody listening? Do 19 you not think it is about time? 20 379 Thank you. 21 --- Applause / Applaudissements 22 380 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 23 Catton. 24 381 MS VOGEL: I want to make sure that 25 no one sitting in the room has registered to speak this StenoTran 84 1 morning. I have a number of names that I would like to 2 read out of those who had registered and said they were 3 interested in presenting. So, if any of you are out 4 there, I would invite you to come to the table: Marsha 5 Drake; Chris Cartier; Joseph Cowan; Mike McNaughton; 6 382 Then, just before we break for lunch, 7 I would like to invite the representatives of the CBC 8 to come forward with their comments. 9 REPLY / RÉPLIQUE 10 383 MS SUSAN ENGLEBERT: Thank you very 11 much. My name is Susan Englebert. I am the Regional 12 Director of Radio for British Columbia and, Madam 13 Chair, I want to thank you very much for allowing the 14 CBC to take part in the public consultations. It is 15 wonderful for us to hear what people have to say. I 16 think over this morning we have had quite a varied 17 group of people and opinions. 18 384 We will be contacting people who have 19 talked here today to discuss with them what they have 20 said, if there are questions, if there is anything we 21 can help them with. Obviously, we are listening to 22 people very carefully. We are taking their comments 23 very seriously as we work towards the May hearing. We 24 look forward to putting many of their thoughts and the 25 CBC's thoughts together for our presentation in May. StenoTran 85 1 385 Nice, brief, short. Thank you. 2 386 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 3 Englebert. 4 387 Since we don't have any more for this 5 morning, we will adjourn until 1:00 o'clock. 6 388 Thank you very much. 7 --- Recess at 1132 / Suspension à 1132 8 --- Upon resuming at 1305 / Reprise à 1305 9 389 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, 10 ladies and gentlemen. Since we have many new 11 presenters this afternoon, I will take the liberty of 12 rereading my opening remarks. 13 390 Welcome to this public consultation 14 on the CBC. 15 391 My name is Cindy Grauer and I am the 16 CRTC Commissioner for British Columbia and the Yukon. 17 392 We are here to gather your views and 18 comments on CBC radio and television. In your opinion, 19 how should the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation fulfil 20 its role in the coming years? 21 393 The CBC is a national public service, 22 broadcasting in English as well as in French. It plays 23 an important role in the Canadian broadcasting system. 24 Today, many elements are constantly being added to the 25 broadcasting system, as new technologies multiply, StenoTran 86 1 converge, open up new horizons, and increasingly offer 2 new services. In this context, we want to know what 3 are your needs and expectations as viewers and 4 listeners of the CBC. 5 394 Given that, it is very important that 6 the Commission hears what you have to say. We must not 7 lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public 8 organization that serves Canadian citizens. In this 9 capacity, we are responsible to you. This is why my 10 fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to come 11 and meet with you to discuss these issues and why we 12 are holding this series of regional consultations, from 13 one end of the country to the other, in eleven Canadian 14 cities, from March 9th to 18th. 15 395 These consultations are designed to 16 give you a chance, on the eve of a new millennium, to 17 express your opinion on the CBC's role, the programming 18 it offers and the direction it should take at the 19 national, regional and local levels. 20 396 Through these consultations we hope 21 to enter into an open dialogue with you and to hear 22 your concerns. Your comments will form part of the 23 public record which will be added to the record of the 24 public hearing on the CBC that will begin in Hull, next 25 May 25th. StenoTran 87 1 397 At this upcoming hearing, the 2 Commission will examine the CBC's application for the 3 renewal of its licences, including radio, television 4 and its specialty services, Newsworld and Réseau de 5 l'information. You can also take part in that public 6 hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 7 If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the 8 specific licence renewals being examined when you file 9 your comments. 10 398 Now, I would like to come back to 11 today's consultations. Please allow me to introduce 12 the CRTC staff who will be assisting us today: 13 Marguerite Vogel, who will be our hearing manager; and 14 we have Sandra Caw and Peter Healey from our Western 15 and Territories Regional Office. Please feel free to 16 call on them with any questions you might have about 17 the process today, or any other matter. 18 399 So that you will all have the 19 opportunity to speak, we ask that please limit your 20 presentation to ten minutes. As these consultations 21 are a forum designed especially for you, and we want to 22 listen to as many participants as possible, we will not 23 ask any questions, unless we need clarification. 24 400 At the end of this session, 25 representatives from the local CBC stations will have a StenoTran 88 1 chance to offer their views, as they are naturally very 2 interested by the issues we are discussing here, today. 3 401 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Commissioner 4 Grauer. 5 402 I will be calling each presenter in 6 turn. We do have a schedule of presenters. If someone 7 isn't here for the first time around, I will recall 8 before the end of the afternoon. So there is no such 9 thing as being missed in this session. 10 403 If you are here as an observer and 11 decide that you want to add some comments to the 12 proceeding, we have comment sheets on the table right 13 at the back of the room. I would encourage you to get 14 one of the sheets, fill them in and then turn them into 15 me before you leave this afternoon. Those comments 16 will become part of this proceeding as well as the oral 17 presentations. 18 404 There are also other pieces of 19 documentation back there that may be of interest to 20 you. 21 405 When you are about to make your 22 presentation, please turn on your microphone and that 23 means hitting the white button. The red light will go 24 on and the red ring around the mike will go on. We are 25 having a transcript taken of these proceedings and, StenoTran 89 1 should you want a copy of it, I encourage you to talk 2 to our court reporter, who is the woman in the lovely 3 blue suit to my right. She will be able to tell you 4 how to get a copy of the transcript. 5 406 If you have speaking notes that you 6 want the Commission to have please feel free to give 7 them to me at any time prior to your presentation. 8 407 Now, I believe Mr. Morley Sutter is 9 here. 10 408 Mr. Sutter, would you go ahead with 11 your presentation, when you are ready, please? 12 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 13 409 MR. MORLEY SUTTER: I thought I was 14 number three, but I am pleased to begin. 15 410 Just an aside, we pronounce it 16 "Sutter", not "Sutter". 17 411 MS VOGEL: My apologies. 18 412 MR. MORLEY SUTTER: No, that is a 19 small point. 20 413 Madam Grauer, fellow Commissioners 21 and ladies and gentlemen, I want to speak to three 22 points. The first is that the CBC is needed. There 23 are all kinds of rumours circulating about its 24 privatization. 25 414 Secondly, what its responsibility, as StenoTran 90 1 I see it, and that involves primarily to provide 2 reliable information and to support and to provide 3 access to the arts. 4 415 Third, I have some questions, if I 5 may, about management, politics and process. 6 416 Those, then, are the three points to 7 which I wish to speak: The need for the CBC, its 8 responsibility and some questions. 9 417 We need a national 10 government-supported broadcast system free of 11 advertising. I have been exposed to, listened to, the 12 public broadcasters in the U.K., in Sweden, Australia, 13 and the U.S., in each of which countries I have lived. 14 One only needs to listen to the waste land that is 15 particularly radio but also television news in the U.S. 16 to realize what the consequences of what I would call 17 commercial television are. I have listened to CNN most 18 recently in Cuba, and it is just as bad in Cuba as it 19 is here -- ten minute snippets of nothing. 20 418 I would add that the CBC, 21 particularly radio with which I am most familiar, is 22 better than almost any of the other public 23 broadcasters, with the exception possibly of ABC, which 24 is very good, Australia Broadcasting Corporation. 25 419 So, I think we desperately need a StenoTran 91 1 national, government-supported broadcast system, as I 2 said, free of advertising. 3 420 The responsibility of the CBC, and I 4 would confine my remarks mainly to radio because TV is 5 so different in the sense of it being supported by 6 advertising in part, and I admit that I love sports on 7 TV, but other than that I find it apart from some 8 documentaries and drama quite boring and nasty. 9 421 The essential element is that the CBC 10 must provide reliable, extensive information at local, 11 national and international levels. This must be 12 distributed throughout Canada with equality, and this 13 is not the case at the moment. I was asked to mention 14 by a person who lives in Prince George that they had to 15 raise $25,000 of their own money to get Radio Two, and 16 the same is true of Smithers, so they consider that 17 they are not getting equal value for money since they 18 pay the same taxes as every one else. 19 422 The information which is provided can 20 and should contribute to national unity, not in the 21 form of a PR or apologia a for any one group, but 22 rather in terms of in-depth information and analysis 23 which is clearly described and indicated to be 24 analysis. 25 423 I would hope that they would clearly StenoTran 92 1 distinguish ideas from information. This is certainly 2 done with the program "Ideas", which airs at 3 approximately 9:00 o'clock, and is called "Ideas". 4 Ideas are not necessarily information. And clearly 5 editorials, editorial comment, should be distinguished 6 from information. I find the infomercials and the 7 docu-dramas very disturbing in terms of techniques of 8 propaganda. 9 424 The interviewers and those moderating 10 various discussion groups should pose genuine questions 11 rather than, as is sometimes the case, give equal 12 weight to both sides without asking the critical 13 questions and sometimes being so politically correct 14 that they are fluff. 15 425 I have not mentioned the arts up to 16 now very much because I do think that information and 17 its reliability are the chief and most important 18 aspect. The arts are important. It is the role of the 19 CBC, or should be, to support the arts, to provide 20 access to the arts, and this comes back to the Prince 21 George story which I mentioned, who had to pay their 22 own extra money to be able to listen to quality 23 classical music. I would urge the CBC to distribute 24 evenly what they already have in the way, particularly 25 of the arts, but also in terms of information before StenoTran 93 1 they develop new services. 2 426 I would like now to turn to the 3 process because I think it is a little bit surrealistic 4 to have these hearings when one aspect of the CBC 5 across Canada, the technicians are on strike, and 6 another group are poised to go out on Friday. This is 7 a strange circumstance. I wonder how much the CBC is 8 like the post office, with layers of management and 9 top-down decisions, perhaps, contributing to the 10 ferment. 11 427 Many of the problems about the 12 broadcast business, and particularly a 13 government-supported one, a tax-supported one, is: 14 What is the end point? I come from an education 15 background, or attempt to be in education, and I know 16 that the end point of things such as education, such as 17 broadcasting, are very loose. It is easy to commodify 18 either of them. It is easy to commercialize either of 19 them. But this leads to something which is simply 20 popular and not necessarily useful or good or 21 long-lasting. 22 428 So, the commodification of 23 broadcasting has hazards, just as the commodification 24 of education. 25 429 A word about new technology, because StenoTran 94 1 clearly this is in the background. The CBC has 2 developed Web sites and the people who promote the 3 personal computers, such as Gates, are eager to see 4 television merge with PCs. Just before coming here I 5 was reading the latest "The Economist", and apparently 6 this attempt in Hong Kong and Singapore has been an 7 outrageous flop because people are not yet ready, and I 8 don't quite understand why, to be able to select what 9 they view on their computer. Part of it is the 10 difficulty of broadband broadcasting which is beyond my 11 technical skill, technical knowledge. 12 430 So, to repeat, -- oh, one other 13 point. 14 431 I am concerned that the CBC may well 15 have gone the way of General Motors. By that I mean 16 having layers and layers of management without the 17 people who do the work having much say in what is going 18 on, and all organizations are prone to this top-down 19 management disease. It doesn't matter whether it is 20 government, General Motors, and I suspect, although I 21 don't know, CBC and the post office. 22 432 So, management should be looked at in 23 that regard with the aim of leaving the management 24 primarily to those who do the job with, perhaps, 25 overall policy being discussed at different levels. StenoTran 95 1 433 To sum up, then, we need the CBC. We 2 need reliable information. Its responsibility is 3 primarily to provide that reliable information, along 4 with support and access to the arts across the nation 5 in an even-handed manner. This is the best way to 6 assist in the unification of the nation, to assist in 7 us being a nation rather than a group of isolated 8 entities. 9 434 I do have questions about the 10 management and the political process, but I am not 11 knowledgeable enough to comment upon them. 12 435 Thank you very much. 13 436 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 14 much, Mr. Sutter, for sharing your views with us. 15 Thank you. 16 437 Madam Secretary. 17 438 MS VOGEL: I would like to invite 18 Jennifer Sullivan to make her presentation now, please. 19 439 MS JENNIFER SULLIVAN: Where's the 20 staff? 21 440 MS VOGEL: I am sorry, which staff? 22 441 MS JENNIFER SULLIVAN: The CBC staff. 23 You mentioned that they would say something at the end. 24 442 MS VOGEL: The very end. 25 443 MS JENNIFER SULLIVAN: The very end? StenoTran 96 1 444 MS VOGEL: At the end of this 2 afternoon's session, yes. 3 445 MS JENNIFER SULLIVAN: I see. So 4 they haven't arrived yet? 5 446 MS VOGEL: Yes, they are here. 6 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 7 447 MS JENNIFER SULLIVAN: Oh they are, 8 they are lurking. 9 448 Okay. I am from Vancouver. I have 10 gone to university here, delivered mail here in 11 Burnaby, delivered mail in Prince Rupert and was a 12 first aid attendant in the construction of the deep sea 13 port. I went to Laurentian in Sudbury. I worked a 14 year in Ottawa. I settled down finally in Montreal at 15 McGill in delivering mail. 16 449 I was in a serious automobile 17 accident in Montreal, in coma for eight days, broke my 18 hip, so I couldn't deliver mail any more, and couldn't 19 remember what I had read so I couldn't finish my 20 masters thesis in Guy Vercheres la salle de Canadian 21 français, so it was all wiped out upstairs, nothing 22 there and it hasn't come back. So I come back to the 23 West Coast and my mother and begin rehab and turn the 24 radio on. It is 690, CBC, I was a smart cookie before 25 the accident. So, here I am confused, I have no StenoTran 97 1 memory, I have got two languages that nobody can 2 understand, I finally got what I wanted by sign 3 language, you know, I want a smoke, that is perhaps a 4 solution to our national unity. 5 450 But I turn CBC on and I was a letter 6 carrier, a proud letter carrier, and the national 7 anthem is on, and it is not played any more, somehow I 8 guess that is saving money, I don't understand. Every 9 letter carrier in Canada would like to know why you 10 have stopped playing the national anthem. 11 451 So I get "Early Edition", six to 12 nine, and that reintroduces me to my community and my 13 province. It is all gone and that reintroduces me to 14 what is here and then Gzowski on Morningside, that 15 shows me the social and political fabric of this 16 country, and then the news, places, "This Country", on 17 the world map, and "Ideas", it re-educates me, tax is a 18 second certainty, in the blue box, and then as I am 19 just getting comfortable trying to sort out -- I have 20 got two languages, I am apparently a member of the 21 Parti Québécois, what is that, and the NDP, it is not a 22 conflict of interest, and then the Right Honourable 23 Brian Mulroney starts cutting CBC funds. So there is 24 lay-offs. There is more announcers than field 25 reporting. There is more repeat broadcasts. StenoTran 98 1 452 And then the Right Honourable Jean 2 Chrétien replaces Brian Mulroney and far outstrips 3 Brian Mulroney. 4 453 So it seems as though the federal 5 Liberals have decided to solve our financial stability 6 by cutting the costs of our national broadcasting. And 7 there is nothing I can do about it. 8 454 Now, I know that your mandate, the 9 CRTC, has nothing to do with money. I was just 10 wondering if it would be possible -- you see, when I 11 got back -- I was looking in. I didn't know how 12 anything worked and through the CBC radio and 13 television, I watch "This Hour Has 22 Minutes" and 14 "ENG" and "Street Legal" and Mansbridge, that has given 15 me back Canada. So it is as important as renovating 16 our Parliament Buildings. 17 455 I know that you can't decide anything 18 about money, but it doesn't appear to me that there is 19 a great deal more to talk about. If you refuse to put 20 gas in the car, there is no point in talking about its 21 performance, the damn thing doesn't go. So I am just 22 wondering, all of your phone numbers are in Hull, you 23 live and work close to the big boys in Ottawa. So I 24 was just wondering if you could maybe -- you know I 25 have written to Jean Chrétien and the Minister of StenoTran 99 1 Finance, and I got a brilliant idea when I was trying 2 to figure out how income tax worked that I would make a 3 gift, in kind, of my 130-millionth per cent of the CBC 4 to the Minister of Finance. Now, that is a gift in 5 kind. I would get a tax credit for it and that would 6 impose a responsibility on his shoulders to maintain 7 and make that cultural property available to the 8 public. That is a concrete responsibility that is 9 missing in the Broadcasting Act, that is just as funds 10 become available. 11 456 And then the headquarters of CBC in 12 Ottawa said that I didn't own the CBC, my tax dollars 13 pay the salary of what we got two or three employees 14 left, but I still don't own it, so I can't give it to 15 the Minister of Finance. 16 457 Okay, so I thought I will make my 17 cheque out when I pay my taxes on April 31st to the 18 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, and then Revenue 19 Canada says, I can't do that, they start charging me 9 20 per cent after April 30, so I can't do that. I tried 21 -- I asked -- I tried to hire Brian Mulroney, the Right 22 Honourable Brian Mulroney, he is practising in 23 Montreal, just up the street, and then he says, he gets 24 his executive assistants to finally tell me that, no, 25 it would be a conflict of interest, Mr. Mulroney does StenoTran 100 1 corporate law now, comment ça? Don't the corporations 2 listen to radio or watch TV? 3 458 I asked Pat Carney if she and her 4 colleagues in the Senate would donate their salary, 5 which the majority of them don't need to buy groceries, 6 to the CBC. She said no. So I am out of ideas. I 7 just wondered if you, if -- you know how they work over 8 there. You know how Crown corporations work, whoever 9 owns it, do you have any suggestions on how me, a lowly 10 Canadian idiot could oblige the Minister of Finance to 11 put back the money into the CBC that was there before 12 the Tories? 13 459 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. 14 460 MS JENNIFER SULLIVAN: You don't have 15 any ideas? 16 461 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. 17 462 MS JENNIFER SULLIVAN: Or it is not 18 in your mandate to offer them? 19 463 THE CHAIRPERSON: All of the above. 20 464 MS JENNIFER SULLIVAN: None of my 21 ideas worked. You see, there is only maybe what three 22 employees left, okay, we are going into the year 2000, 23 I got a computer, I got what the CRTC is and who is on 24 it on the Internet. My family is being downsized and 25 when it is downsized enough and it is little enough StenoTran 101 1 nobody will notice when it stops. So I guess there is 2 only one thing left to really do and that is the 3 Liberals are doing it. So, the next election, anything 4 but the Liberals. 5 465 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 6 Sullivan. Your remarks all form part of the public 7 record, so you have passed them on. 8 466 MS JENNIFER SULLIVAN: Merci. 9 467 MS VOGEL: I would invite Harold Funk 10 to make his presentation next, please. 11 468 Is Mr. Funk in the room? 12 469 No. Then I would like to invite 13 Gordon -- I am sorry, are you Mr. Funk? I am sorry. 14 Please proceed whenever you are ready. 15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 16 470 MR. HAROLD FUNK: Madam chair, 17 members of the panel, this is my first appearance at a 18 hearing of the CRTC. I am here due to my increasing 19 concern about the budgetary cutbacks which the CBC has 20 been made to endure. 21 471 This is not a fault of the CRTC but 22 is the fault of our elected representatives. 23 Nonetheless, I must express my support for the CBC as a 24 public broadcaster and in support of the renewal of 25 their necessary licences to continue to operate. StenoTran 102 1 472 My views on the merits of the CBC as 2 a sort of glue holding this country together parallel 3 very much with others such as Peter Gzowski and the 4 Council of Canadians. I see certain political parties' 5 desires for greater provincial autonomy as a direct 6 threat to Canada as a nation. We absolutely need this 7 broadcaster to produce programming and coverage arising 8 from all areas of our country, so better to understand 9 each other. 10 473 To speak about the effects of 11 cutbacks would take too many pages. Suffice it to say 12 that I and the members I represent greatly miss 13 programs such as "Media File", which is no longer, due 14 to cutbacks. I believe that in the time of cutbacks 15 and restraints government went too far in their cost 16 cutting. Health care funding is being restored. The 17 health of Canada should also be considered and funding 18 restored so that we may have a healthier country. 19 474 I listen to CBC One, CBC Two radio 20 all the time. I only wish that everyone in Canada 21 could get both these services, that more people could 22 get Radio Canada and certainly that everyone gets CBC 23 TV or CBUTV. 24 475 Whenever I am out of Vancouver, I 25 usually can get only CBC One and often at a compromised StenoTran 103 1 quality. 2 476 We need more newscasts and up-to-date 3 weather broadcasting on weekends. I realize people 4 need time off on weekends but to essentially go from 5 Friday to Monday morning with sketchy or no news and 6 weather is inadequate. 7 477 I must also mention that I have 8 listened to CBC for so long now that I just can't 9 tolerate inane commercials on private radio. 10 478 I am often tempted to ask my dentist 11 to change the radio station. The stuff between 12 commercials isn't much better on private radio. 13 479 If these hearings are necessary to 14 show that we need the CBC licence is renewed, 15 hopefully, these words will help you arrive at a 16 positive conclusion. 17 480 I thank you very much for your time 18 in hearing me. I should also add that I really do 19 appreciate the coordination because the scheduling to 20 come and appear, everything has been picture perfect, 21 so job well done by the staff, it needs pointing out. 22 481 In closing, please consider that I 23 also speak for approximately 2,400 members, primarily 24 in newspapers and commercial print in British Columbia 25 through our local union, the CEP Local 2000. We are StenoTran 104 1 not directly involved with the dispute that is 2 currently going on and I don't know whether the 3 Commission has any views in regards to the dispute, but 4 clearly if the lack of funding that Parliament is 5 providing has got a direct relationship to the dispute, 6 and I suspect the ongoing viability of the public 7 broadcaster, and so I think in a roundabout way the 8 members of this panel are seized of the matter in a 9 roundabout way. 10 482 Thank you. 11 483 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 12 Funk, for taking the time to appear. 13 484 MS VOGEL: I would like to ask Mr. 14 Gordon Lenfesty to make his presentation now, please. 15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 16 485 MR. GORDON LENFESTY: I have no claim 17 to fame like the gentleman before me. I don't 18 represent a lot of people. But I appreciate the 19 opportunity to express my viewpoint. 20 486 First of all, I would like to ask the 21 chair to what value our expression of viewpoint is; is 22 it recorded? Is it going to be carried to the other 23 members of the CRTC? The young gentleman that was 24 peeking before Mr. Funk brought up a very, very 25 important point with regard to making contributions to StenoTran 105 1 the CBC. Daryl Duke, in his article on -- in the 2 Vancouver Sun of last Saturday was speaking about the 3 -- referring to the need for financing and the fact 4 that the CBC was becoming commercialized like the other 5 radio stations with its advertising. 6 487 What I would like to suggest to the 7 Commission is that if we are going to give the CBC the 8 title of being public broadcasting in Canada, we should 9 give it the same privileges that other countries give 10 their public broadcasting. Half of our population in 11 the Vancouver -- well, perhaps not half, but a good 12 number of our population in Vancouver area subscribe to 13 the public broadcasting from across the line in the 14 U.S. 15 488 The CBC needs more latitude in its 16 financial structure in order to get away from the 17 complete control of the political parties, whatever 18 they may be in power. The CBC should be able to 19 conduct programming on television with respect to 20 getting contributions from leading organizations in the 21 community, just as the public broadcasting from across 22 the line in Washington does. There are many law firms, 23 there are many corporations that would contribute 24 liberally if the CBC had the same standing from the 25 standpoint of being able to be tax deductible in their StenoTran 106 1 contributions. 2 489 Just going the commercial route for 3 advertising, increased advertising, is going to come to 4 an end somewhere because of the fact that there is only 5 so much time can be allowed for it. 6 490 There is another area that I would 7 like to speak to about the CBC, that is, and this Daryl 8 Duke says is a result of our lack of funding. We are 9 in a position where we are getting so much in the way 10 of programming, and I am not speaking in any way to 11 take away from our fine people who are broadcasting. 12 If we have -- all of us, I think, would agree that the 13 CBC has the best in the way of news broadcasters, maybe 14 we are not getting enough of it, we are not getting 15 enough local coverage, for sure, but the quality of the 16 people in general on the CBC are excellent and I would 17 agree with Daryl Duke in saying that we are -- we have 18 the finest people anywhere as far as our people are 19 concerned. 20 491 The fact that he could also quote a 21 man by the name of Mr. Martin as saying it could almost 22 be called the "Toronto Broadcasting Corporation" and to 23 us -- to those of us who live in the west, to be 24 constantly subjected to the eastern people and then the 25 type of programs we get, such as "Road to Avonlea" on a StenoTran 107 1 continuous basis and seeing the same people coming on 2 and on and their -- not programs but their 3 presentation, I would guess you would call it, being 4 repetitive and the same people and then being stretched 5 out and overly stretched out so that you are forced, if 6 you want to have a pleasant Sunday evening, you are 7 forced to go to other stations to get entertainment for 8 the evening. 9 492 There is another area that I believe 10 that the CBC should function in. With this I will 11 close my remarks, and I am grateful for the privilege 12 of being able to make them. This is the first time I 13 have ever done something like this, it is very nice, I 14 appreciate it, I think the whole set up has been very 15 nice. 16 493 I like the comments of Mr. Funk and I 17 think that I would echo them that the whole situation 18 of today's sessions. I think they have been very well 19 organized and I am complimentary to those who are 20 responsible for it. 21 494 One of the things that we lack in 22 Canadian culture, so-called, which is difficult to find 23 and trace what is Canadian culture, we lack -- we just 24 lack -- have a tremendous lack of Canadian culture. I 25 think that this lack could be reduced for one thing if StenoTran 108 1 we had a cross country encouragement to young people in 2 theatrical groups. There are so many young people out 3 there today who are just crying for a venue for their 4 talents, that the CBC could serve as -- and serve our 5 Canadian culture in a tremendous way by doing a talent 6 search or a training program. With all of the money 7 that we put into employment, there are many of these 8 young people who would like to be used. The trouble is 9 they come up to a point where they do a local 10 presentation or something and their talent is shining 11 but they have no place else to go. To get on the CBC, 12 they would have to find their way to Toronto 13 practically, as one of our young men from Burnaby did a 14 few years ago, find their way to Toronto and then get 15 acceptance, rather than the CBC coming to us with all 16 of our expensive facilities that we have here for the 17 CBC. I would like to see the CBC do something in that 18 regard. 19 495 I think that the CBC is held back 20 tremendously by not giving it the latitude, and I am 21 coming back to the financial area, of being able to 22 raise money on its own without having -- because of its 23 crying all the time that the government and the 24 Minister of Finance is not giving them the money. 25 There is no party, political party in existence that, StenoTran 109 1 if they gave the criticisms that the CBC has given to 2 our government that wouldn't try to curtail it. I 3 think the CBC is to be complimented for giving us such 4 an honest presentation. I think that the CBC has given 5 tremendous coverage to all of the parties that are in 6 the House of Commons. I would compliment it. I would 7 not like to see our country without the CBC. I think 8 it plays a very, very valuable role and I endorse it 9 wholeheartedly with some changes. 10 496 Everything -- what is the old saying, 11 adage that says, there is nothing so permanent as 12 change? The CBC does need some changes. It also needs 13 the CRTC, that has given out licences for television 14 stations that we don't really need, as far as our local 15 scene is concerned, it needs to give the CBC more 16 latitude. If the CRTC doesn't have that power, then it 17 should go to Parliament and get that power to be able 18 to give the CBC more latitude in its raising of finance 19 as well as in its programming. 20 497 I thank you again for the privilege 21 of being here. I don't know whether our efforts today 22 -- you know as nice as the environment is and 23 everything, I don't know whether our efforts count for 24 anything, but it is nice to be able to have your little 25 say-so any way. StenoTran 110 1 498 Thank you very much. 2 499 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 3 much, and, indeed, to answer the question you asked at 4 the outset, all of the remarks form -- I am just saying 5 further to your question earlier on, all of the remarks 6 today form part of the public record and -- on the 7 transcript for this proceeding so all of the colleagues 8 on the panel will be briefed, certainly at least, on 9 the context of these. Thank you. 10 500 MS VOGEL: Would Stanley Fox make his 11 presentation now, please? 12 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 13 501 MR. STANLEY FOX: Thank you. Madam 14 Grauer, Commissioners. I am here as a representative 15 of the West Coast Media Society. It is a group of 16 citizens based primarily in Victoria, British Columbia, 17 that has spent the last 12 years examining media and 18 making comments about the responsibility of media. 19 502 The organization began because CBC 20 Victoria had no CBC representation even though it was 21 the capital of British Columbia. In an effort to get 22 CBC presence in the form of a radio station, we began a 23 campaign more than a decade ago, and as some of you 24 know last year CBC opened a radio station in Victoria, 25 so we now have local service. StenoTran 111 1 503 In that period of time, we had 2 occasion to consult with hundreds and hundreds, perhaps 3 thousands, of local citizens in that area and we have 4 also had a great deal of discussion with the CBC in our 5 efforts to get them to make this decision. I think 6 that gives us a special perspective on what people 7 think about the CBC. We have had enormous support for 8 the CBC in Victoria. 9 504 When the station opened last summer, 10 there were actually thousands of people outside the 11 building in the form of a celebration, which astonished 12 the people around who came from the east to witness 13 this event, including the principal representatives of 14 the CBC. 15 505 We have come to the conclusion over 16 the years that the CBC is one of the most important 17 cultural institutions that our Canadian society has 18 created. It provides a unique service of great value 19 to Canadians that is not available from the private 20 broadcasters. You have to think of television dramas 21 like the "Boys of St. Vincent", investigative reporting 22 like "Fifth Estate", music specials from the National 23 Arts Centre, unbiased world and local news, and one of 24 the best radio services in the world. 25 506 The CBC has done wonders in the last StenoTran 112 1 two years in Canadianizing the TV schedule and received 2 increased audience support for doing that. It has also 3 been able to launch a first-class Internet presence, 4 but it has lost many valuable features. The important 5 thing is it cannot develop or even survive under the 6 present conditions and policies of the government. We 7 will not have a CBC if things go on the way they are 8 going now. 9 507 In order to look at that problem, we 10 would like to indulge us for a minute to go over the 11 main historic problems of the CBC because they are all 12 present. In fact, I might say this is not my first 13 appearance before the CRTC on these matters. I 14 appeared to discuss the excessive commercialization of 15 the CBC, lack of stable funding in 1974, and I haven't 16 had a satisfactory answer since. So I hope that you 17 will be able to do something for us. We have been 18 waiting a long time now. 19 508 All right. What are these essential 20 features of problems? First is the hostility of the 21 private broadcasting community. It is not public. 22 They do not come out and say it out loud but in the 23 corporate boardrooms, in the planning of strategies 24 there is no question they would love it to disappear. 25 That is a very, very powerful force in our society. StenoTran 113 1 509 Then there is the political 2 interference in the form of punitive budget cuts, and 3 that includes the lack of stable adequate long-term 4 financing. We had the experience of a Liberal Party 5 which promised us stable funding in the election so 6 people voted for them, they reneged on that, and then 7 we had a minister of culture who was supposed to 8 support the CBC who even less than six months ago 9 managed to hack another $50 million out of the budget. 10 510 Because you can only vote for 11 parties, political parties in this country with 12 platforms, if they renege on their platform, what do 13 you do? It is a very difficult situation. 14 511 There is also the growing 15 commercialization of the TV schedule, and that is a 16 result of the lack of adequate financing. I can't 17 believe there is anyone in the CBC management who would 18 like to be more commercial but they go on being more 19 commercial because it is the only possible route. 20 512 Finally, well not finally, but one of 21 the others is the attitude of the CRTC. What do I mean 22 by that? Well, I mean that the CRTC has interpreted 23 its mandate quite narrowly over the years, and I will 24 give you an example of what I am talking about. 25 513 In our campaign to get a radio StenoTran 114 1 station for Victoria, we went to the CBC and we talked 2 to them first over two or three years. They said it 3 was impossible and then they thought and they worked 4 and they worked very, very hard and they came back to 5 us and they said, "We have a plan. Even though we are 6 having budget cuts, we know how we can open a radio 7 station in Victoria. This is how we are going to do 8 it. The establishment in Prince Rupert, British 9 Columbia is excessively large. It was made large 10 during World War II to service the many troops that 11 were up there. It has extra studios, extra announcers, 12 extra staff. If we reduce the staff in Prince Rupert 13 to the level that it ought to be given the standards of 14 the service, we could open small broadcasting stations 15 in Kelowna and Kamloops and Victoria. All we have to 16 do is get permission from the CRTC to do that." 17 514 So, we went before the CRTC with a 18 fine plan. The CRTC said, "Great, wonderful," and then 19 this is the ringer, this is why I am talking about it, 20 "However, we have heard from the people in Prince 21 Rupert, the mayor and the city council, and we have 22 decided that you can go ahead but you can't reduce 23 Prince Rupert's size. You can't take the money out of 24 Prince Rupert." 25 515 That was all couched in long StenoTran 115 1 complicated sentences, but that was the essence of it. 2 So, the CBC said to us, "Well, this is the ruling, we 3 can't possibly fund it. We will fund Kamloops and 4 Kelowna and you guys will have to wait". So it was 5 another five years before we got our radio station in 6 Victoria as a direct result of a CRTC ruling. So you 7 can't say you are not involved in finances. 8 516 All right, internally, the CBC has 9 problems. We have to face that. There is the 10 presumption that it must be all things to all 11 audiences. This dilutes its resources in all areas. 12 The fact that it doesn't have to be -- to run every 13 kind of program that is on commercial television, but 14 that has been the mandate, and Perrin Beatty, and God 15 bless him and goodbye, said the same thing very, very 16 recently. 17 517 And then there is the excessive power 18 of the television sports and sales departments within 19 the CBC due to the need to generate commercial revenue. 20 Loyal viewers of television, particularly, will realize 21 that every spring when the play-offs come, there goes 22 the news, there goes all the programs we usually look 23 at to help us see some game somewhere. That is a 24 result of commercial pressures. Then people complain, 25 and how can you expect a broadcaster to continue when StenoTran 116 1 there is no continuity of programming and the basic 2 programs like the news are not available in the major 3 news hour time? 4 518 And then there is finally the 5 demoralization of the management due to severe budget 6 cuts over the past five years. Well, I say 25 years, 7 but five years specifically. How any human beings 8 could function effectively and with energy in the face 9 of this constant assault on the finances of the 10 organization, I don't know. 11 519 All right, what do we want? We want 12 a CBC that reflects the needs of Canadians, and what we 13 feel it needs to survive is financial security, stable 14 funding at a level that relieves it of commercial 15 pressures, that have such a bad effect on the 16 programming decisions, and we feel that such funding 17 should come from a legislated source, such as, ready 18 for it, dedicated tax -- more taxes -- and that is the 19 best way to do it. Freedom from political pressures 20 and appointment to its management and board. 21 520 Do we need to go into that? The 22 actual bios of the CBC board of directors is available 23 on the Internet, read them and weep, because there is 24 nobody -- well, one or two might have just passed by a 25 television station during their early years, most of StenoTran 117 1 them are stock brokers, chartered accountants, party 2 organizers, just read it, the whole story is right 3 there. I won't say -- that is one government board. 4 521 And then there has to be recognition 5 from the CRTC, you are back on the line, that it is not 6 just another broadcaster. This has become clear over 7 the years of reading CRTC decisions, meetings, minutes. 8 The fact of the matter is because the private industry 9 has grown instead of having the CBC one private 10 network, two private networks, now at a meeting of 11 licence approval and so on, there is an army of these 12 people, Home and Garden Network, the Sports Network, 13 they are all there and they become -- the CBC becomes 14 one of this huge body, all of whom are private except 15 the CBC. It is quite understandable that the CRTC 16 spends 90 per cent of its time dealing with other 17 people and the CBC can quite easily get -- its profile 18 can be dropped and lost and dropped down terribly. 19 522 So, what can be done? I think you 20 could restore the radio budget to the level where local 21 stations like CBC Victoria can do local programming 22 other than a morning show, make regional radio an 23 originating point for drama and light music as well as 24 news, as it used to be in the good old days, and 25 explore the possibilities -- now this is a scary one -- StenoTran 118 1 of very limited corporate support along the lines of 2 national public radio in the U.S.A. 3 523 For television, use the -- this again 4 we realize that there is no point in going back to the 5 old days, we can't really get more money out of the 6 government. That is not going to happen in our 7 lifetime I don't think. So new ways have to be found 8 to make this work. One, use the example of the 9 successful "Newsworld" model for television. Have a 10 national cable satellite and Internet service with 11 mandated -- this is important -- mandated local slots 12 to be filled under the control of regional CBC 13 production centres. This is not new. This was done in 14 the '60s. What I am saying is if you had a national 15 service and if you had certain periods of time on the 16 air that were actually under the control of the 17 regional CBC people, who made the entire programming 18 decisions and could do anything they wanted in those 19 time periods, you would solve the problem of having a 20 local regional presence and yet not having to have all 21 the real estate that is currently existing in the local 22 areas. I think it is 40 per cent of the CBC's budget 23 goes to maintaining the transmitters and studios. 24 524 It is pretty appalling. Produce with 25 rented facilities, if possible. It is done in the film StenoTran 119 1 industry all the time. 2 525 So I am saying -- also you could 3 slowly abandon some of the repeater satellite channels, 4 repeaters as people move to satellite and cable. Allow 5 the CBC to enter into co-productions with any group or 6 any nationality and take equity as needed. Use the 7 Channel Four model in the United Kingdom, but just let 8 the CBC be free of the onerous Canadian content 9 regulations that you supply to everybody else. Take a 10 chance on it. 11 526 Finally, the Internet and new media. 12 A good start has been made on the Internet. This must 13 continue and expand as the support for the other 14 services. 15 527 And, finally, yes, I am finished, 16 treat the CBC as a needed social institution like a 17 great library or an educational institution or a 18 university so it doesn't have to be measured by 19 ratings. We don't measure the University of British 20 Columbia by ratings. Accept that the quality of the 21 experience of its audiences is as important as the 22 audience size. 23 528 I hope that by 2074 we will have an 24 answer to this. 25 529 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Fox. StenoTran 120 1 --- Applause / Applaudissements 2 530 MS VOGEL: I would ask Don Hamilton 3 to do his presentation now, please. 4 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 5 531 MR. DON HAMILTON: Thank you. My 6 comments are not hastily conceived. They are based on 7 concepts and knowledge formed over a lifetime career in 8 broadcasting. I enjoyed my time in the National Press 9 Gallery, my term as President of the CAB, the BCAB, 10 Broadcast News, and as Vice President of the 11 InterAmerican Association of Broadcasters and Canada's 12 radio bureau. 13 532 But no assignment was more 14 challenging than the almost seven years I spent on the 15 CBC board, its executive committee and chairing its $3 16 billion pension plan. Under four presidents and two 17 chairmen, I had a very rare opportunity to study the 18 organization inside and out, warts and all. 19 533 It's rooted in our cultural history, 20 physically spread over six time zones, underfunded, 21 poorly managed and somewhat out of date. But that is 22 yesterday's history. Let's talk about tomorrow. 23 534 I submit that today, as we sit here, 24 the CBC as an organization is unmanageable. The name 25 of the president and the make-up of the board, frankly, StenoTran 121 1 doesn't matter. There is no one alive who could arrive 2 in the morning and in the course of a management day be 3 responsible to, or in some ways serve, the demands of 4 the parliamentary committee, the minister and her 5 ministry, the CRTC, the Broadcast Act, the Parliament 6 of Canada, the Auditor General, the four unions, the 7 board of directors, the Radio Act, the 9,000 employees 8 spread over 10 provinces, the operation of 21 9 television stations, 65 radio stations and 1,152 10 transmitters, the programming of five Canadian 11 television networks, two American television networks, 12 five Canadian networks and one international radio 13 network, supervise 62 international transmitters in 58 14 countries in seven foreign languages, deal with 30-odd 15 private affiliates and 270 community-owned 16 rebroadcasters, produce signals that reach from the 17 high Arctic to the Caribbean, from Labrador to 18 California -- do it all in two official and eight 19 native languages and before the day ends seek the 20 approval of 30 million Canadian shareholders. 21 535 Let's use 21st century technology to 22 show us how it can be reshaped and properly managed. 23 First of all, get rid of the corporation's "edifice" 24 complex, those dozens of CBC buildings and land that 25 time and technology have overtaken. Let the private StenoTran 122 1 sector bid on them. Take the billion dollars that 2 creates and put it aside for programming. Then do one 3 of two things. 4 536 Option one, follow the American model 5 in place for almost 80 years, first in radio and then 6 in television, let the private sector own the buildings 7 and the transmission systems, but require as conditions 8 of national licence that they broadcast fixed hours of 9 CBC network programming, plus major national special 10 events. Call them affiliates. Set up some new 11 networks to deliver new programs. Here is how it could 12 work. 13 537 Network one could be news, 14 information, public affairs and special events. 15 Network two could be entertainment, drama and cultural 16 programming. Network three is children's educational 17 and documentaries. Decide how many hours a day each 18 would broadcast. 19 538 Now, the private sector that bought 20 the real estate and the physical transmission plants 21 are obliged to broadcast these networks and, in 22 communities large enough, each network would appear on 23 a different privately owned station. For instance, in 24 Vancouver, BCTV might broadcast network one. CKVU 25 could broadcast network two, and VTV would broadcast StenoTran 123 1 network three. 2 539 In larger centres with more stations, 3 networks could be broadcast at different times on 4 different stations and the same national programs could 5 be seen twice but by different audiences. 6 540 Each of the new CBC networks are 100 7 per cent Canadian content, and they run totally 8 commercial free. The private sector station owners 9 broadcast them free of charge. If each station 10 broadcasts a CBC network say five hours a day, they 11 would own 19 additional local programming hours. The 12 local newscasts and programs become their 13 responsibility. They keep all the revenue they 14 generate. They hire all the local staff. And they pay 15 all the bills. 16 541 The new CBC would not compete for 17 sports broadcast rights. CBC staff numbers and costs 18 are radically reduced. Program distribution is 19 guaranteed by CRTC regulation and paid for by the 20 private sector. 21 542 For the first time in its history, 22 CBC is now totally devoted to program content. The 23 success of the new networks and audience attraction is 24 in direct proportion to the quality of the new 25 programming. Rather than ratings and commercials, StenoTran 124 1 programming excellence would now drive the CBC. 2 543 In this option, distribution is both 3 over the air and through cable with 100 per cent of all 4 Canadian households receiving the new networks. 5 544 Option two, found three new specialty 6 channels, make a major policy decision on revenue that 7 orders cable companies to distribute them free of 8 charge to all cable homes. Or charge so many cents a 9 month on a cable bill with the entire revenue coming 10 back to the new CBC as viewer-based program funding. 11 Dish receivers not cable equipped would pay a yearly 12 fee. 13 545 The controversy here would not be the 14 delivery system but the revenue base. In this scenario 15 the new networks would reach about 97 per cent of all 16 Canadian households. With mandatory cable coverage a 17 given, a matrix on costs, homes reached, facilities 18 needed, staff required and funds necessary, could be 19 done quickly, projected simply, and presented easily to 20 Parliament. 21 546 To go even further under either 22 scenario, meld the National Film Board and Telefilm 23 Canada into the new CBC. This then brings the funding, 24 management and creative control of those Crown-owned 25 cultural icons under one rationalized roof, StenoTran 125 1 guaranteeing more savings and efficiency with all 2 savings dollars going into programming. 3 547 CBC is watched from the sidelines as 4 Canadian audiences have dissipated. To compete, CBC 5 now needs a bold new vision for a new century to serve 6 a brand new purpose, with a brand new mandate. 7 548 While successive governments have 8 slashed budgets through deflating dollars and 9 decreasing commitments, the CBC has presented no new 10 thinking on the delivery of Canadian culture and 11 information to the nation. This continuing silence is 12 in spite of the new worldwide delivery technology that 13 is exploding as we speak here today. 14 549 The corporation's only response to 15 demanded belt tightening is to let old thinking reduce 16 budgets and eliminate jobs. In my years in broadcast, 17 I have watched Royal Commissions, parliamentary 18 committees, special task forces, industry think-tanks, 19 tripartite associations, international treaties, union 20 negotiations and mandate reviews study the phenomena 21 that is the CBC. 22 550 In the 63-year history of this 23 organization, not one has come up with any new thinking 24 on how to deliver a new programming product, not one in 25 63 years. StenoTran 126 1 551 So, CBC continues to operate the way 2 it does because we have always done it that way. This 3 stationary lateral thinking has produced lots of new 4 critics but, unfortunately, not one new champion -- not 5 one. 6 552 For over six decades they have 7 continued to confuse activity with progress. Now, the 8 CBC must finally merge bold vision with harsh reality 9 or face an accelerated extension. Rather than 10 presenting a blueprint and critical path of how to 11 redistribute some of the corporation's assets to build 12 the finest new public broadcaster in the world, they 13 have retreated behind a vacuum of silence. The key 14 problem of CBC funding is not lack of money but lack of 15 political will. Governments have always taxed or 16 borrowed to support policies and projects they believe 17 in. We saw that again in last month's federal budget. 18 But the government's massive budget cuts at the 19 corporation are loud and eloquent statements announcing 20 that they no longer believe in the CBC. 21 553 How come the CBC hasn't heard those 22 signals? Every one else has. 23 554 The consequence of the lack of 24 creative alternatives, bold new visions, a dedicated 25 commitment and technological understanding has resulted StenoTran 127 1 in successive governments almost totally eliminating 2 the value of public broadcasting. So, on one hand, as 3 CBC funding erodes, the nation is served less and less 4 from a stale CBC buffet on one hand, while on the other 5 hand both Parliament and government receive continuing 6 public criticism for funding this ever diminishing 7 offering of old ideas and method. 8 555 Unless major elements of this 9 destructive chemistry are changed, Canada's public 10 broadcasting system as we know it or knew it will 11 disappear and be greatly mourned after its avoidable 12 death. 13 556 With my suggestions every one wins -- 14 the public purse, the Canadian viewer and listener, the 15 private sector, and the citizens of Canada. 16 557 The formula then shifts to the 17 programming excellence required to repatriate audiences 18 who have left, as they can now view new values, new 19 channels, new programming, in the fusion of new 20 cultural objectives. Early in the new millennium 21 Canada has a brand new public broadcaster. 22 558 Thank you. 23 --- Applause / Applaudissements 24 559 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 25 Hamilton. StenoTran 128 1 560 MS VOGEL: I invite Barb Brett to 2 make her presentation next. Just hit the white button 3 on your mike, please. 4 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 5 561 MS BARB BRETT: Thank you. Good 6 afternoon. I first found CBC radio about 35 years ago 7 when I moved from Vancouver to Dawson Creek. At that 8 time, news coverage of any type in Dawson Creek was 9 sparse and of variable quality. What started out then 10 as a search for news coverage has resulted in my 11 continued reliance on CBC, now called Radio One, not 12 only for news but information and entertainment as 13 well. 14 562 I represent no group here today, just 15 me and my family. I want to begin by telling you why I 16 love the CBC, and there is five main reasons. 17 563 First, quality. The quality far 18 exceeds anything available anywhere else. Our family 19 appreciates that there is a respect for the listener's 20 ability to think and to follow a program intelligently 21 and imaginatively. The news and information programs 22 are current. They go directly to a reliable source of 23 information and we hear the tone and attitude of the 24 news maker as the program hosts ask challenging 25 questions that we ourselves would want to ask. This StenoTran 129 1 must require a great deal of research and effort and I 2 have a great deal of respect for the skills and talents 3 of the professionals in CBC broadcasting. 4 564 When some disaster strikes, such as a 5 power outage and we are forced to listen to private 6 broadcasting for a short spell, we find the one theme 7 focus, the sensational news and accident reports and 8 the rapid fire advertisements to be in stark contrast 9 to the wide ranging diversity, thoughtful perspectives, 10 personal interviews and respectful attitudes of the 11 CBC. 12 565 Second, variety. We love the variety 13 of programming. At some point every week, there will 14 be science, drama, humour, health, arts reports, 15 mystery, sports, et cetera, et cetera, and we listen to 16 just about all of it. Perhaps hoping to be told just 17 how far from Reading a guest is located on "As It 18 Happens," keeping the kids quiet so we can hear all of 19 "Finkelman's 45's", catching the latest peculiarity on 20 Arthur Black, laughing out loud over Lorne Elliott and 21 hanging on to every word and pause in Stuart McLean's 22 latest offering. 23 566 We anxiously await Catherine 24 Gretsinger every afternoon to hear the latest in B.C. 25 happenings. We look forward to Lisa Cordoso every StenoTran 130 1 morning for islands news and appreciate Mark Forsythe's 2 pleasant manner with all his guests on "Radio Almanac". 3 567 We also appreciate the availability 4 of the French programming on radio and TV. We 5 ourselves are not French speaking, but one of our 6 children recently graduated from the French immersion 7 program and another is well on his way in the program. 8 They both watch the French channel. The French 9 programming across Canada reinforces the richness of 10 our cultural heritage. I think one should be able to 11 go anywhere in Canada and be able to listen to or watch 12 a program in either one of our two languages. It is 13 important that the CBC continue this service. 14 568 The recent monotony during the past 15 few weeks of the technicians' strike has made it 16 painfully obvious that one central program or endless 17 repeats are totally inadequate to achieving the concept 18 of public service radio. If CBC isn't soon able to 19 resolve this labour dispute, listeners like myself who 20 value the quality and variety will soon be driven away. 21 One wonders if CBC management and the federal 22 government realize how serious the situation is. Let 23 us hope these difficulties can soon be resolved. 24 569 The third reason I love CBC is that 25 CBC celebrates Canada and Canadians. Canadians tend to StenoTran 131 1 be a shy lot but, thanks in part to the CBC two former 2 Dawson Creek boys, Ben Hepner and Roy Forbes are 3 renowned nationally and internationally. 4 570 I doubt I would ever have heard of 5 Connie Calder if it weren't for the CBC, and now I 6 think her Wood River is just about the prettiest piece 7 of music I have ever heard. 8 571 Where else would I have ever heard 9 about the Governor General's Gold Medal and heard 10 Stephanie Bolster being interviewed and reading alive 11 from her Alice poems? 12 572 The more that Canadians are promoted, 13 the more their talents will be recognized and the more 14 opportunity there will be for growth and employment in 15 the arts and entertainment industries. 16 573 It makes us proud and happy to hear 17 about our successful athletes, too, whether at the 18 Canada Winter Games in Cornerbrook, the Special 19 Olympics or the international Olympics, we learn of 20 their efforts and accomplishments thanks to the CBC. 21 574 My husband watches TV more than I do 22 but he says the same thing there. The programs that 23 are the most valuable are the Canadian ones, "Venture", 24 "Marketplace", "Air Farce", "On the Road Again", 25 "Science", "National", et cetera. These programs are StenoTran 132 1 specific to Canada and celebrate Canadians. 2 575 And we need to know more about Canada 3 and Canadians or we will begin to think that only other 4 countries, other more flamboyant countries are the only 5 ones with talented and gifted individuals. 6 576 Fourthly, the CBC links Canadians, 7 not just through the phone in or open line programs 8 like "Cross Country Checkup", but through the focus on 9 the ordinary person or the ordinary events in life are 10 we linked in common with every other person in the 11 country. A family favourite in our house now is 12 "Zing", made from a tomato relish recipe that 13 originated with a Calgary housewife who Peter Gzowski 14 interviewed a few years back when he tried to find out 15 what everybody did with all the tomatoes they grew 16 every year. 17 577 I myself feel a real bonding with all 18 those people who offered recipes, and there must be 19 hundreds of others like me. We do have a lot in common 20 with each other. The way we have to cope with the 21 weather, struggle to grow a garden, keep in touch with 22 family members scattered across the country and these 23 common threads are made evident to us through the 24 varied theme and focuses of both the regional and 25 national programs. StenoTran 133 1 578 Fifth, CBC helps define Canada and 2 Canadians. We learn and understand what is going on in 3 various regions, sometimes a special fund raising event 4 is highlighted, sometimes a problem in a municipality, 5 sometimes a weather emergency, problems in education, 6 health care, Canadians in other countries. We learn 7 not only about the problems, but about the ingenuity 8 and generosity of Canadians in their attempts at 9 solving these problems. 10 579 We find there are many similarities 11 and we can all benefit from learning about the efforts 12 of others in similar situations. 13 580 While the CBC is in the process of 14 trying to find, preserve, promote Canadian culture, we 15 feel that the CBC is part of our culture. Our children 16 all have the shared experiences of kids TV programs, 17 "Mr. Dress-up", "Friendly Giant". When any one of us 18 hears the word "science" we can't help but think of 19 David Suzuki or Jay Ingram or Bob McDonald and the 20 fascinating facts we have come to expect to have 21 presented to us in a straightforward palatable fashion. 22 581 We have the shared experience of 23 growing up with the time signal. We all make jokes 24 about the half hour later in Newfoundland. These 25 common experiences are all thanks to the CBC itself. StenoTran 134 1 582 In explaining why I listen to the 2 CBC, I have answered some of your questions, at least 3 in part, but here are my specific comments to three of 4 them. 5 583 Number one, what is CBC's role in 6 Canada? CBC's role in Canada is to promote and 7 preserve Canadian culture by linking, helping define 8 and celebrating Canada and Canadians through diverse 9 and quality programming that respects the ability of 10 the listener to form an opinion and response. 11 584 B, we expect the CBC to help -- I am 12 sorry, to keep the public informed on both the positive 13 and negative aspects of our government and politicians 14 and expect it to continue to offer critical analysis 15 whether through information programs, satirical comedy 16 or whatever, but the CBC should never be a tool of the 17 government. 18 585 C, we expect these services to be 19 available in both official languages. 20 586 Second question, how well does CBC 21 fulfil its role as the national public broadcaster? We 22 think the CBC does an excellent job, but its strength 23 lies in the talents of its professional staff. In the 24 past few weeks, while the technicians have been out on 25 strike, there has been a vastly reduced quality and StenoTran 135 1 diversity. 2 587 Without the CBC, a whole dimension of 3 Canadian culture is missing. The CBC needs its 4 independence and it needs substantial funding if we are 5 to continue to have quality and diversity and if it is 6 to achieve its role. 7 588 We expect a public broadcaster to be 8 publicly funded and we object to the continued cutbacks 9 which must be a tremendous strain on the professionals 10 trying to fulfil their mandate. 11 589 Third, in the new millennium should 12 the CBC fulfil its role in a different manner than it 13 has in the past? I never expect the world to be vastly 14 different from December 31st to January 1st in any 15 year. New technology and evolving social trends will 16 continue to influence how programming is packaged and 17 presented; but I would still expect the CBC to promote 18 and preserve Canadian culture by linking, defining and 19 celebrating Canada and Canadians. I expect it to be 20 done professionally and efficiently and I expect my tax 21 dollars will be used to support the CBC adequately. 22 590 In conclusion, thank you for 23 listening to one very ordinary Canadian praising the 24 CBC. I know I am linked to thousands of others all 25 across the country who feel the same way. I hope we StenoTran 136 1 will all continue to be linked by receiving the quality 2 and diverse programming that we have come to rely on 3 for news and information and entertainment and Canadian 4 culture. Thank you. 5 --- Applause / Applaudissements 6 591 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 7 Brett. 8 592 MS VOGEL: Could Judy Fawcett give 9 her presentation, please? 10 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 11 593 MS JUDY FAWCETT: Thank you. I feel 12 a bit like a chicken in a fox coop actually. I have a 13 background in private broadcasting and my viewpoints 14 are definitely garnered from that experience. 15 594 There are a few points Mr. Hamilton 16 basically made a very macro view of things that could 17 be done to improve the CBC and to keep it in fact a 18 viable functional network, some more specific things 19 that I have certainly observed over time being present 20 at many of these events, the negative reporting. I no 21 longer listen to CBC news in the morning and rarely 22 listen in the evening because I would like to just hear 23 the news and not just someone's approach, how can we 24 make a negative story out of this? 25 595 A reporter's job is to report the StenoTran 137 1 news. CBC, please, if I wanted an opinion, I would 2 read the opinion page, the editorial page. Please 3 credit the audience with the ability as well as the 4 intelligence to form an opinion from your news reports. 5 596 The other thing is that I have just 6 observed again over a period of time what I can only 7 see and hear as a patronizing and an arrogance in 8 presentations. This ranges anything from even a simple 9 interview where the interviewer appears to know more 10 about the person being interviewed than the person 11 themselves. 12 597 For a station or a corporation that 13 is a national representative, I just think of a program 14 called "Choral Concert" on Sunday mornings and think 15 having lived in four Canadian provinces of the diverse 16 choral programs and the excellence of choral programs 17 and then to be subjected simply because something is 18 done in Toronto and its from Europe it therefore must 19 be world-class instead of listening in fact to some of 20 the Canadian choral programs. 21 598 The local news, where has it gone? 22 Many, many private broadcasting stations are in fact 23 providing better coverage. They are telling us what is 24 going on locally, and there I can give specific 25 examples, again, of not just the coverage but of StenoTran 138 1 imaginative programming where private broadcasting has 2 been a leader in situations that CBC could have been a 3 leader. I think back to a very major storm in Calgary 4 last year. Basically, the first time in history almost 5 the roads were closed, a very new upstart TV station in 6 fact used their Hummer to transport some doctors to 7 hospitals so that the medical profession could carry on 8 their duties. This was not something that anyone else 9 did. 10 599 Another instance is public affairs. 11 I listen to private broadcasting for public affairs 12 because they tell me what is going on and locally to 13 things that I want to attend or maybe don't want to 14 attend. I turn to CBC, but then I listen to someone 15 else for when I really want to know what is going on. 16 600 I am confused and concerned about 17 what really is the mandate of CBC. Perhaps a long time 18 ago there was one and that the broadcasters actually 19 know and knew what it was. In 1999, I think we have 20 forgotten in the complaints about cutbacks, et cetera, 21 what the mandate was. I am very concerned that the 22 idea of quality programming, in fact, only refers to 23 classical music or poetry readings, all of which I have 24 listened to the past. 25 601 However, if this is a station, a StenoTran 139 1 corporation that is broadcasting to the nation and 2 covers Canada, sports people are people as well, and I 3 can attest to living outside the country and being 4 thrilled to actually see Mark Tewkesbury, a number of 5 years ago win a gold medal. 6 602 If we are going to be all things to 7 all people, sports people, unfortunately or 8 fortunately, are also people, and the idea of quality 9 programming should in fact be extended to all areas of 10 programming. It isn't just playing classical music. 11 603 This isn't the 1940s. This isn't 12 even the 1970s. People can receive information from 13 many different sources. Perhaps it is time for CBC to 14 revisit not only their mandate but what it is that they 15 would like to do, why are their numbers down. People 16 are tuning out because the audience they do have is no 17 longer hearing what they tuned in to hear. Please, 18 listen to the people. They are the ones that you are 19 broadcasting to. Stop complaining. Don't tell us 20 about the cutbacks. We all know about them. 21 604 I have most recently lived in Calgary 22 and if you were in the oil patch there you would 23 understand that there is no such thing as a job 24 guarantee. If it didn't happen to me personally, it 25 certainly happened to too many people I know who were StenoTran 140 1 doing good jobs who lost their jobs. Let's just do our 2 job and stop blaming someone else. Listeners will come 3 when you are doing a good job. 4 605 Thank you for listening to me. I do 5 listen to CBC obviously, as I know some of the things 6 that are going on, but I do hope you will listen to the 7 people who aren't tuning into your station any more 8 because of these reasons. 9 606 Thank you. 10 607 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 11 Fawcett. 12 608 MS VOGEL: The next presenter is Mary 13 Helen Hatch. 14 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 15 609 MS MARY ELLEN HATCH: Thank you. I 16 have been listening, even though I have been knitting. 17 That is called multi-tasking. 18 610 I do have a print out of my 19 presentation. 20 611 All that the last presenter I would 21 endorse their statements. I don't believe that there 22 is nothing but classical music -- you have obviously 23 got the wrong channel. 24 612 Thank you, all, thank you for coming 25 to Vancouver. I live in Abbotsford now, which is about StenoTran 141 1 an hour's drive east of the city. I was not born in 2 this country, but my parents, grandparents and some of 3 my great grandparents were. I have lived in Ontario, 4 Quebec, Alberta, the Northwest Territories, and British 5 Columbia. 6 613 I love and I am most interested in 7 this country called Canada, the number one place in 8 which to live according to the United Nations report. 9 The federal government brags about this honour, and yet 10 intending to destroy, by starvation, the last major 11 communication link from sea to sea to sea, by reducing 12 the funding to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, 13 and meddling in things about which it knows nothing. 14 614 I, a willing consumer of the CBC 15 networks for over 42.5 years, am very angry at Mulroney 16 and his ilk who started this blood-letting, which is 17 being continued and compounded by the current Prime 18 Minister and his ilk -- shame on them all! 19 615 Canadians deserve, and have the 20 right, to a Canadian perspective on local, regional, 21 national and/or international topics from the past, 22 present and/or future as presented on CBC radio and/or 23 CBC TV, all very good until Mulroney's time. Please go 24 back to the original papers for the still valid reasons 25 that prompted and caused the formation of our unique StenoTran 142 1 radio service initially that expanded to include TV in 2 its time. 3 616 Please protect and defend the CBC 4 radio and TV for Canadians and whoever happens to be 5 listening and/or watching. The CBC is part, I am 6 willing to bet, of what makes Canada the envy of the 7 rest of the world. 8 617 Thank you. 9 --- Applause / Applaudissements 10 618 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I also 11 just want to add that this is a wonderful and great 12 diverse country we live in, and for the record I live 13 here in British Columbia and I serve as a member of the 14 CRTC based here. We have a regional office here. This 15 is a wonderful diverse country when we have a range of 16 diverse views, and that is one of the beauties of 17 having these consultations and these hearings is that 18 we can hear a range of views about not just the CBC but 19 all the work we do. I just wanted to remind every one 20 of that, that it is -- 21 619 MS MARY ELLEN HATCH: I apologize for 22 making my snarky remark, but I don't think the lady 23 that was ahead of me was listening to the programs that 24 I have been listening to. 25 620 THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand. I StenoTran 143 1 just wanted to make that point, that we are here to 2 hear everybody. 3 621 MS VOGEL: The next presenter this 4 afternoon is Audrey Graham. 5 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 6 622 MS AUDREY GRAHAM: Thank you, Madam 7 Chairman. I am over here. Thank you. 8 623 It has been very difficult for me to 9 put this together because I am not good at doing this 10 sort of thing, but I care so much about the CBC that I 11 felt however little I could do I wanted to do it. 12 624 I care deeply for Canada, and I care 13 deeply for the CBC. In the rush to economic 14 globalization, our health care system and the CBC, the 15 only two public institutions that prevent us from total 16 realignment with American culture and social programs. 17 I have always believed that Canada could be a major 18 force for good in the world, that we could -- what we 19 could become would be the result of our collective 20 attitudes. So often we have been sold short by our 21 leaders and our highest aspirations and possibilities 22 have been underrated and not taken into account. Not 23 so with CBC, especially radio. It has given us 24 information, entertainment and education. 25 625 In the present regressive trends in StenoTran 144 1 society, the dumbing down of America as it is called, 2 especially of the news media and commercial television, 3 it is vital that we have a free and flourishing public 4 broadcasting system to give unbiased news coverage, 5 critical analysis and cutting-edge journalism. 6 626 We must have an arm's-length 7 relationship to government to allow journalists freedom 8 to do their work. I have been inspired by the talent 9 that abounds in this country and grateful to the CBC 10 for bringing it to us. I appreciate their service and 11 their dedication to the common good. 12 627 Once CBC is free of commercials and 13 its funding restored, we can have a public broadcasting 14 system second to none. It angers me and worries me to 15 see this symbol of all that is the best in Canada being 16 whittled away. It diminishes us as a people and 17 suggests a hesitation and ambivalence about our future 18 and our autonomy. It has been my conviction and my 19 hope that some day, somehow, Canadians will find a 20 vision worthy of its natural endowments and many 21 opportunities. 22 628 We need our public broadcasting 23 system to strengthen our unity, help us appreciate our 24 diversity, keep us informed, and help us evolve to a 25 higher humanity. Please don't sell us short. Thank StenoTran 145 1 you. 2 --- Applause / Applaudissements 3 629 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 4 Graham. 5 630 MS VOGEL: Next is Mr. Paul 6 Ohannesian. 7 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 8 631 MR. PAUL OHANNESIAN: Thank you. Let 9 me get used to this microphone for a moment. 10 632 Good afternoon. My name is Paul 11 Ohannesian. I am a visual artist and retired 12 architect. For almost three decades, I have listened 13 to CBC radio on the order of 30 to 40 hours per week. 14 I wish to place before you three interrelated points. 15 633 My first point may be characterized 16 by the question: What is the philosophical difference 17 between a true public broadcaster and a typical 18 commercial broadcaster? I put it to you that the 19 difference is profound. 20 634 A public broadcaster, such as the 21 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, has as its mandate 22 the charge to enable the development of human and 23 humane values within the society. A commercial 24 broadcaster has at its root profit-driven values, which 25 are by their very nature antithetical to the deeper StenoTran 146 1 human values that a healthy society must develop. 2 635 Let me offer a few comparisons to 3 illustrate. A public broadcaster encourages the 4 flourishing of a multicultural society in all its 5 richness and complexity. A commercial broadcaster 6 seeks to force all citizens to inhabit one big 7 monoculture so that they become compliant and easily 8 susceptible to the enticements of mass advertising. A 9 public broadcaster helps to promote a cohesive society 10 through exposing its citizens to the natural variety of 11 people and cultures within its domain. Through 12 understanding comes empathy; through empathy comes 13 cooperation; through cooperation comes the very 14 strengths of that society. 15 636 A commercial broadcaster seeks to 16 create a fractured society of haves and have-nots by 17 playing on the material fears of the haves and stirring 18 the envy of the have-nots, all in the name of selling 19 its advertisers' products. 20 637 A public broadcaster spreads all 21 varieties of human knowledge, because out of curiosity 22 and intelligence comes the real vitality of that 23 society. 24 638 A commercial broadcaster plays to the 25 lowest common denominator because numerical listener StenoTran 147 1 and viewership ratings determine advertising fee scales 2 and corporate profitability. It is of no concern to 3 them that the lowest common denominator may be rooted 4 in completely anti-human and anti-environment 5 attitudes. 6 639 A public broadcaster, by enabling 7 people who are far distant geographically to hear each 8 other's stories, promotes generosity of spirit to 9 others than oneself. A commercial broadcaster promotes 10 self-interest and blatant greed to sell the 11 advertisers' products. 12 640 A public broadcaster dares to be 13 critical of authority because a healthy democracy 14 depends upon constant examination of the actions of its 15 government and consequent course correction when 16 necessary. A commercial broadcaster flinches from 17 controversial and challenging topics because fearful 18 advertisers may pull their ads and poof goes the 19 broadcaster's revenue. 20 641 I move from this set of comparisons 21 to my second point, which is how well has the CBC 22 fulfilled the role of a true public broadcaster? 23 642 To speak to this, I turn to personal 24 experience, and I must ask your forbearance as I tell 25 my own story for a moment. StenoTran 148 1 643 I was born in 1947 in Los Angeles, 2 California, an American. My entire childhood and 3 teenage years were shaped by American notions and 4 ideals. All of my formal schooling took place there. 5 644 The combination of economically flush 6 times, post-war American self-importance on the world 7 stage, a culture in which Mickey Mouse was a folk hero, 8 and a typical American Cold War "education" made me 9 into a perfect little aspirant to success American 10 style. 11 645 I am telling you this because I know 12 in my own gut that most Americans know little and care 13 less about the national aspirations of countries other 14 than their own. I also know from my firsthand 15 experience what one American president meant when he 16 proclaimed that the business of America is business. 17 646 Finally, I, who grew up only 30 miles 18 from Disneyland know only too well the Americans' 19 obsession to impose their values and set of cultural 20 filters on to every other nation that they can 21 infiltrate with their saccharine and denatured 22 mass-produced entertainment. 23 647 When it came the time that I was 24 faced with entering the army to serve the ends of those 25 who controlled my country, through the grace of God I StenoTran 149 1 knew that that would be an evil act, and I sought to 2 serve the land of my birth as conscientious objector. 3 Refused that status, I arrived in Canada in March of 4 1970 as a war objector. This country welcomed me. 5 648 Within my first week of arrival I 6 discovered CBC radio, and I heard over the airwaves at 7 last voices of reason and sanity, after having heard 8 years of lies and brutal policies blaring from radios 9 and televisions in my country of origin. 10 649 The CBC very soon became, and it has 11 always remained, my companion, and my teacher, and my 12 ears and eyes on the lives of other Canadians scattered 13 all over a vast landscape. 14 650 As I sought to learn more about my 15 new country, especially after I became a citizen in 16 1976, the CBC's decades of sound archives brought me 17 the echoes of history, affirming what I had always 18 believed, that there are indeed humane values of 19 justice, wisdom, hope, and constructive cooperation 20 between individuals deep within the human family. I 21 found out about my Canada, and I liked what I learned. 22 651 As Canada in the 1980s lurched toward 23 a political showdown in Quebec, it was because of the 24 years of listening to the CBC that my family embarked 25 in 1991 on a six-week odyssey in Eastern Canada to meet StenoTran 150 1 our neighbours in several provinces face-to-face. Had 2 it not been for my prior exposure to them through the 3 CBC's entertaining and educational programming, I doubt 4 that my curiosity would have led me into that 5 adventure. 6 652 So, to answer the second question 7 that I put, that is, how well has the CBC fulfilled the 8 role of a true public broadcaster, my personal answer 9 is, superbly. 10 653 With this, I turn to my third and 11 concluding point. Upon my return from the 1991 trip, I 12 wrote up my travels and self-published 150 copies of 13 the book I entitled, "Beloved Home, One Family 14 Encounters Canada". I sent a number of copies to the 15 premiers of all the provinces and to key national 16 leaders with a cover letter pleading with them to work 17 hard to ensure that this country would survive and 18 flourish. 19 654 One of the replies I received was 20 from the then Leader of the Opposition, the Honourable 21 Jean Chrétien, the key paragraph of his letter dated 22 February 26, 1992, reads thus: 23 "Like you, many Canadians have 24 written to me to express their 25 desire to keep Canada united and StenoTran 151 1 thriving. As you have 2 discovered, increased knowledge 3 of our historical and 4 geographical uniqueness 5 automatically leads to greater 6 appreciation of this wonderful 7 country we share. Together, we 8 can overcome the present 9 barriers and go on to build an 10 even greater and prosperous 11 nation." 12 655 That is what Jean Chrétien wrote to 13 me seven years ago. Today, that same man in the office 14 of Prime Minister is prepared to complete the 15 destruction of our incredibly vital Canadian 16 Broadcasting Corporation by starving it to death 17 financially. He is prepared to throw away the very 18 eyes and ears of the Canadian nation for the private 19 enrichment of a few well-placed individuals and 20 corporations. 21 656 Members of the CRTC, as I conclude my 22 remarks, it is through you today that I address our 23 Prime Minister thus: Mr. Chrétien, when your government 24 was elected to office in 1993, you promised this nation 25 that you would strengthen the CBC. We, the citizens of StenoTran 152 1 Canada, did not elect and hire you to preside over its 2 destruction. We did not entrust you with the 3 stewardship of this vital nation-building institution 4 only to see you savage it and bow to the desires of 5 multinational corporations. We do not want a United 6 States style monoculture. We demand that the strengths 7 of our multicultural Canada be acknowledged and 8 strengthened. 9 657 Sir, when my 13-year old son reaches 10 the age of 23, I do not want him to look with sorrow 11 and horror on the nation of his birth as I was forced 12 to do with mine. Keep your promises, Mr. Chrétien, to 13 support and strengthen the CBC. Keep your promises, as 14 you wrote to me in 1992, to go on to build an even 15 greater and more prosperous nation. 16 658 Prime Minister Chrétien, sir, keep 17 your promises! 18 --- Applause / Applaudissements 19 659 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 20 Ohannesian, and I think we will take our afternoon 21 break and reconvene at 3:00 o'clock. 22 660 Thank you. 23 --- Recess at 1445 / Suspension à 1445 24 --- Upon resuming at 1508 / Reprise à 1508 25 661 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, StenoTran 153 1 ladies and gentlemen. We are ready to reconvene. 2 662 Madam Secretary. 3 663 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Commissioner 4 Grauer. I would like to invite Jim Whitworth to make 5 his presentation now, please. 6 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 7 664 MR. JIM WHITWORTH: I am just going 8 to address the questions here that have been 9 recommended by the CRTC. I am not going to elaborate a 10 lot. I am here primarily just to show support for CBC 11 as a whole. 12 665 They ask: How well does CBC fulfil 13 its role as a national public broadcaster? As regards 14 radio, it does a very, very good job in my opinion, 15 except that I am unable to get CBC or Radio Two where I 16 live. I think that it fails us in that respect. I 17 think that we should have access to it in all places in 18 Canada. 19 666 As far as TV goes, I think that it is 20 not what it was and it is becoming less and less what 21 it should be. I think that there is a way too much 22 time spent aping CTV and not enough time spent doing 23 what they can with the budget that they have. 24 667 In particular, I find the morning 25 news offensive on CBC. It is trivial. It is vacuous. StenoTran 154 1 Its emphasis is totally on entertainment, sports and 2 business, and I don't feel that that should be the 3 focus for our national broadcaster. 4 668 So, I hope that that answers the 5 question. 6 669 I have sort of answered the question 7 as far as how does CBC serve -- how well does it serve 8 the public on a regional as well as a national level, 9 in that I can't get it. When I can get it, I am happy 10 with it. You know, like CBC radio, the one station, 11 serves us well over there. We do get some coverage, 12 although there isn't a lot happens where I live on the 13 west coast of Vancouver Island, but we are included, 14 and now like we get CBC one from Victoria. So island 15 coverage is much, much better now. So I am happy with 16 that. 17 670 As to should the programming provided 18 by CBC radio and television be different from that 19 provided by other broadcasters, absolutely. It has to 20 be. The private broadcasters are money motivated. 21 That is it. That is their purpose. That is their sole 22 function and that isn't the function of CBC. I find 23 when I listen to the radio, CBC radio that is, I am 24 inspired. I am stimulated. I am introduced to 25 Canadian artists and thinkers. It adds a lot to my StenoTran 155 1 life. It is an important part in my life and, you 2 know, I would hate to see them become more commercial. 3 671 Is there a special role that the CBC 4 should play in the presentation of Canadian 5 programming? I think that it should be a leadership 6 role and I think that the funding has to be put back 7 into place. It is pretty difficult for CBC to do its 8 job when their budgets are being cut, cut, cut, cut. I 9 think that those cuts show up in programming and in 10 particular the news, once again, or other programming 11 where they are trying to appeal to a market that isn't 12 traditionally CBC. You know, they want the sports 13 people. They are trying to appeal to everybody and 14 they are not -- they are certainly not appealing to me 15 any more. 16 672 CBC radio, I just -- not radio, 17 rather, but TV, I just turn off. I am a Friend of 18 Canadian Broadcasting. I try and support CBC by letter 19 writing to the government and what not. I find that 20 now to get the kind of things which I expect from CBC I 21 have to go to Knowledge Network, for instance, here in 22 B.C., and I send them money. I would like to have that 23 option also here with CBC. Instead of me sending my 24 taxes to the government, it goes into the pot, I would 25 like the taxation to be area-specific. I want to StenoTran 156 1 support CBC. I would like to see them give me that 2 option. This is the amount of money I am paying in 3 taxes this year, I would like that to go to CBC. 4 673 I guess that is about all I have got 5 to say. Thank you. 6 674 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 7 Whitworth. 8 --- Applause / Applaudissements 9 675 MS VOGEL: With your leave, 10 Commissioner Grauer, I would like to just go through 11 the names that were scheduled to present to make sure 12 that no one has slipped into the room without us 13 knowing about it. 14 676 Mr. Prasad, Mr. Reid, Shirley 15 Ridalls, Judith McDowell, Patricia Bell, Elizabeth 16 Fralick, Mr. and Mrs. Walker, Doris McNab, Robin Smith, 17 Ian Benson. It looks like we are up to date. 18 677 I would like to invite Lesley Millen 19 to make his presentation. 20 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 21 678 MR. LESLEY MILLEN: In asking for 22 public comment on the Canadian Broadcasting 23 Corporation, you are asking for comment on Canada's 24 broadcasting system in its entirety. 25 679 Ever since Sir John Aird's Royal StenoTran 157 1 Commission, it has been recognized that the national 2 broadcasting agency is the corner-stone on which all 3 the rest of the system rests. In the seven decades 4 since the Aird report, that principle has often been 5 chipped at and pride away, but it has never been as 6 precarious as it is today. The CBC has never been more 7 needed. 8 680 Many studies have been made of 9 Canada's broadcasting system. I have personally been 10 involved in several. Looking back, I rather wish I 11 hadn't because virtually all of them took the view 12 either that the CBC was close to perfect -- that was 13 certainly the conventional wisdom when I was on your 14 staff nearly 30 years ago -- or that all it needed was 15 to have its mandate spruced up or its management 16 rejiggered or its funding better arranged. 17 681 The sad mess that the CBC finds 18 itself in today is a direct result of this refusal to 19 deal with basics; this tinkering at the margins. The 20 irony is that the people who fought to create the CBC 21 as Canada's national broadcaster, people like Allan 22 Plaut and Graham Spry, never shrank from dealing with 23 basics, even though their names are often invoked by 24 those who believe that the CBC in its present form is 25 sacrosanct. StenoTran 158 1 682 The CBC in its present form is an 2 unworkable mess with a few remarkably good elements 3 that have survived decades of management ineptitude and 4 critical bungling, bungling that is a mixture of crude 5 intimidation, lethargy and indifference to public 6 values and expectations. Management has been able to 7 blame government. Government has been able to blame 8 management. And a national treasure has been allowed 9 to decay. 10 683 You know the history of the CBC. You 11 know the arguments for a national broadcaster. Either 12 you believe those arguments or you don't. If you 13 don't, then the CRTC should advise the government to 14 revoke its broadcasting responsibilities and allow the 15 market to provide broadcasting service to the Canadian 16 public purely on its own market terms. 17 684 If you do believe in the role of the 18 national broadcaster, then you should be prepared to go 19 right to the roots of the system to ensure that such a 20 broadcaster is viable and vigorous in terms of today. 21 685 The CBC, as created more than 60 22 years ago, was admirably designed for its era, but as a 23 vehicle for national broadcasting it is about as 24 appropriate for today's Canada as a 1936 McLaughlin 25 Buick would be for today's highways. Canada's national StenoTran 159 1 broadcasting policy has not changed in any major way 2 since 1970. That policy largely rested on the 3 assumption that broadcast signals were and would be 4 scarce, that the most any Canadian could hope for would 5 be five or six television channels and eight or ten 6 radio stations. Such a world is long gone. 7 686 Let me propose an alternative 8 broadcasting environment for Canada with a strengthened 9 and rejuvenated role for national broadcasting. 10 687 Since time is limited, I will not 11 attempt to offer reasons for each element of this 12 proposal, although I should be happy to provide written 13 amplification if the Commission desires. 14 688 First, create a clear and definite 15 split between private and public broadcasting. Thereby 16 we eliminate the noxious mingling of public money and 17 advertising revenue that has bedeviled the CBC, 18 especially the television services, since the CBC was 19 created. 20 689 Second, recognize reality and create 21 two operating entities, one in French, one in English, 22 each with a nationwide mandate and appropriate 23 responsibilities. Let each have a small board and 24 management team who can get on with those 25 responsibilities and whose performance will be subject StenoTran 160 1 to formal review at suitable intervals, say ten years. 2 690 Third, cease regulating private 3 broadcasting almost entirely, with a major exception, 4 the allocation of frequencies. After suitable 5 frequencies for public broadcasters have been 6 allocated, let the others be auctioned to the highest 7 bidders for ten-year terms. Other than that, let the 8 broadcasters be subject only to ordinary law, criminal 9 and civil. Ownership or control of each licence would 10 have to remain Canadian, but there would be no 11 regulation of program or advertising content other than 12 the generally applicable laws governing libel and 13 obscenity. 14 691 Fourth, let the government determine, 15 on expert advice, what the national broadcasting entity 16 will require as operating funds and enter reserve bids 17 pro rata to ensure that the auction of temporary use of 18 public airwaves will raise at least that much, plus a 19 prudent margin. 20 692 Fifth, direct the public broadcasting 21 entities to accept no advertising, sponsorship or 22 direct or indirect commercial money. 23 693 Sixth, abolish the National Film 24 Board and fold whatever is left of its mandate into 25 those of the national broadcasting entities. StenoTran 161 1 694 Seventh, require the national 2 broadcasting entities to set out five-year operating 3 plans -- I stress not business plans but operating 4 plans -- with objectives consistent with the 5 Broadcasting Act and with measurable planned activities 6 towards those objectives. These plans would be 7 presented to and debated by a standing committee of 8 Parliament and reviewed by that committee in the fourth 9 year of each plan. 10 695 Eighth, allocate funding from the 11 proceeds of the frequency auction according to a fair 12 division between or among the national broadcasting 13 entities with particular attention to the extent to 14 which each proposes to serve and reflect Canada in its 15 entirety. 16 696 Ninth, direct the national 17 broadcasting agencies to identify themselves as such, 18 but in a manner emphasizing that they are not subject 19 to government direction. 20 697 Tenth, create by legislation a review 21 of the Canadian broadcasting system every ten years. 22 Such a review would be undertaken by a panel of ten 23 persons nominated by the federal government and one 24 person from each province or territory to be selected 25 from the voters' list by lot. StenoTran 162 1 698 Finally, designate the national 2 broadcast services as nationally essential to obviate 3 the tragic and disgraceful situation in which we find 4 ourselves today threatened with a CBC blackout. 5 699 These proposals will be opposed by 6 all existing participants in the Canadian broadcasting 7 system. The existing broadcasters, public and private, 8 have the most deeply vested of vested interests. The 9 public broadcasters have built bloated bureaucracies 10 while all too often starving their creative people, 11 giving their management salary increases while offering 12 pittances or wage freezes to technical and creative 13 staff, often ignoring their national responsibilities 14 in the service of narrow interests. 15 700 The private broadcasters have long 16 forgotten, if indeed they ever accepted, that their 17 profits come from the monopoly use of public airwaves 18 which are the inalienable property of all Canadians. 19 They do not own their frequencies. In acting as if 20 they had perpetual rights to airwaves they took over 21 long ago on the basis of promises long forgotten, if 22 ever seriously offered, they continue a pattern of 23 mercantilism utterly inappropriate to a modern economy 24 or a contemporary society. They will mouth the mantras 25 of the market, fine. Let them live by them. StenoTran 163 1 701 Such a fundamental reshaping of 2 Canadian broadcasting around a vital core of national 3 public broadcasting will not be easy, but I believe 4 there is a new generation of people in Canada that has 5 the necessary skills and imagination to make it happen. 6 All that is needed is for those of us who for far too 7 long have tried to solve things by tinkering to help 8 set the direction and then stand out of the way. 9 702 Thank you for your attention. 10 --- Applause / Applaudissements 11 703 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 12 Millen. 13 704 MS VOGEL: I would like to invite 14 Doris McNab to come and make her presentation, please. 15 705 Is Doris McNab in the room? 16 706 NEW SPEAKER: She is here. 17 707 MS VOGEL: Is Doris McNab in the 18 room? 19 708 NEW SPEAKER: She was a moment ago. 20 She is not far away. 21 709 MS VOGEL: Can I ask if Robyn Smith 22 and the Raging Grannies are ready for their 23 presentation? 24 710 Perhaps while we are waiting for 25 those participants to come back in the room, is Mia StenoTran 164 1 Weinberg in the room? 2 711 Would you like to go ahead with your 3 presentation, please? 4 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 5 712 MS MIA WEINBERG: I have a very brief 6 presentation. I wasn't sure if I was going to be able 7 to get to speak. 8 713 I am a visual artist and I am also 9 the B.C. representative on the National Council of 10 CARFAC, which is an arts lobby group. I am speaking 11 here as an individual Canadian, not for the group, but 12 I know that many of my friends and peers feel similarly 13 about this CBC. 14 714 I became a Canadian citizen in 1995, 15 two weeks before the referendum, and because I was such 16 an avid CBC listener, I knew much more about Canada 17 than I needed to for the citizenship test. I really 18 felt that I knew this country well in all its aspects 19 from -- not all its aspects but a lot of aspects right 20 across the country, not just Vancouver, which is where 21 I had lived. 22 715 I listened to the referendum results 23 on Radio Canada in French. At the time I was working 24 at the post office and in the part of the building I 25 was in you couldn't receive AM radio, and I don't know StenoTran 165 1 whether -- what the jurisdiction is around CBC having 2 Radio One on FM, but certainly at the time CBC was a 3 lifeline for me while working at the post office. I 4 couldn't have survived without it. 5 716 I felt that because I could speak 6 French I was in a particularly privileged position in 7 that I could listen to the referendum results live 8 because I could receive Radio Canada. 9 717 I love Canada and I want it to stay 10 together -- this is based on a letter I sent to the 11 Prime Minister at the time. 12 718 I love Canada and I want it to stay 13 together and flourish, and I strongly believe that 14 culture is an essential component of a healthy society, 15 and CBC radio with its excellent national coverage of 16 people, places and events is crucial to our future. 17 719 As I did not have cable and rarely 18 read a newspaper, almost all of my information about 19 current affairs, arts, culture and Canadiana, comes 20 from CBC radio. Their programming is informative, 21 insightful and intelligent, as well as being 22 interesting and entertaining. 23 720 I cannot stress enough how important 24 CBC radio, both national and local, is to my life, and 25 I am sure that the same can be said for many other StenoTran 166 1 Canadians. 2 721 My quality of life is considerably 3 richer as a result of the nourishment I receive from 4 listening to the CBC. To me, it is an essential part 5 of Canada. 6 722 Despite the cuts of recent years, I 7 still think it is an excellent service, though I do 8 miss a lot of what has been cut, and I don't like the 9 fact that we get so many repeats, but I appreciate that 10 the CRTC is not involved with the financing of the CBC. 11 723 As a visual artist, I look to the CBC 12 to keep me informed of what is happening in the arts 13 across the country and around the world. Since the 14 cuts to the CBC in recent years, one of the most 15 informative arts programs, "The Arts Today", has been 16 reduced from one hour daily to half an hour, and this 17 has dramatically reduced the scope and depth of arts 18 coverage. 19 724 That is pretty well all I want to say 20 at this point. Thanks. 21 725 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 22 much. 23 --- Applause / Applaudissements 24 726 MS VOGEL: Has Doris McNab returned 25 to the room? StenoTran 167 1 727 MS DORIS McNAB: Yes. 2 728 MS VOGEL: Please come forward and 3 start your presentation, whenever you are ready. 4 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 5 729 MS DORIS McNAB: Okay. Thank you. 6 730 Good afternoon, and I would like to 7 thank the CRTC for this opportunity to participate. 8 731 I am Doris McNab, chairperson of the 9 B.C. Voice of Women. 10 732 Voice of Women is a feminist network 11 of thoughtful, committed women across Canada. VOW 12 cooperates with women in Canada and other countries 13 working for peace, social justice and the environment. 14 We believe publicly funded CBC is a pillar of the 15 Canadian identity. 16 733 CBC has given us regional programs of 17 inestimable value to give this country of vast size and 18 great diversity a sense of cohesion. 19 734 CBC has encouraged the arts, writers, 20 playwrights, poets, singers, musicians, and we ask the 21 Government of Canada to return to its past support and 22 funding of CBC. 23 735 As well, we ask the Canadian 24 government to increase CBC support staff for job safety 25 and with wages suitable for dangerous work. I StenoTran 168 1 understand that where there were 33 people working on 2 transmitters now there is one, and this is very 3 dangerous for a man to be working alone. 4 736 The right to information and media 5 pluralism is a human rights issue. Article 19 of the 6 UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights adopted by 7 most nations in the world in 1948 speaks of it as such 8 -- linking the right to speak out with the right to 9 take in. Every one has a right to freedom of opinion 10 and expression. It reads, this right includes freedom 11 to hold opinions without interference and to seek, 12 receive and impart information and ideas through any 13 media and regardless of frontiers. 14 737 Our government should have an 15 arm's-length relationship with the CBC. There should 16 never be any interference with a reporter who is only 17 doing his job. 18 738 Canadians would not thrive isolated 19 from one another. Each in our region without knowing 20 or caring about those in another region. We would not 21 thrive in a culture driven by advertising, where we are 22 manipulated to buy, buy, buy. 23 739 We would not thrive on the U.S.A.'s 24 media, especially television, which appeals to the 25 lowest morals and blankest minds with a diet of StenoTran 169 1 violence, sensationalism and sexual exploitation. 2 740 The past few years have brought the 3 mass media to a new low with endless coverage of O.J. 4 Simpson, Kenneth Starr and Monica Lewinsky. I wonder 5 how many people have tuned out the private broadcasters 6 and watched PBS or Vision or, better still, our own 7 Knowledge Network. I know I have. 8 741 Canadian culture is different from 9 the U.S.A. Canadians want to promote a Canadian 10 culture that enriches us all, that values 11 egalitarianism, that is caring and compassionate. This 12 is in direct contrast to the survival of the fittest in 13 economic terms. We believe in community, and this is 14 one reason we support the CBC. They allow every region 15 to be heard and this helps to hold the country 16 together. 17 742 The CBC was brought into being to be 18 a Canadian asset and we want it to continue to do what 19 it is supposed to do, to unite us in one great country, 20 to inform and educate us so that we may participate in 21 our local, provincial, national and world affairs. It 22 is essential in a country with seven time zones and 23 extending from the 49th parallel to the North Pole that 24 we know and understand one another. 25 743 The CBC does this. It truly is the StenoTran 170 1 glue that binds us together. Programs like "Cross 2 Country Checkup", "The House", "Sunday Morning", and 3 "As It Happens", are evidence of this. We are proud of 4 the callers to Cross Country because they show varied 5 opinions, discuss with intelligence and tolerance and 6 knowledge. The CBC informs us through excellent 7 programs -- of course on the radio there is "Ideas" and 8 on the TV there is "The Nature of Things" and, of 9 course, "The National". Who wouldn't miss "The 10 National"? 11 744 With programs like "Life and Times", 12 we learn about our outstanding citizens. We need to 13 hear Canada's stories by more drama and readings by 14 Canadian writers. All of this can stir in us a real 15 Canadian pride better than any flag, although this is 16 my personal opinion, that I support Daryl Duke in that 17 we do need to hear dramas from other countries like 18 Britain, Europe, et cetera. 19 745 CBC foreign correspondents are vital 20 and must be kept on their assignments. Canada presides 21 over the security of the United Nations for one year 22 and we expect we will be taking an active and effective 23 role in world affairs. Canadians must be informed 24 about issues like the -- we were informed about the 25 land mines ban and, perhaps, some day there will be an StenoTran 171 1 abolition of nuclear weapons. But we need to be 2 informed so we can understand Canadian initiatives. 3 746 This can't be done using information 4 only from other countries' news sources, especially the 5 world's most powerful nation. We need foreign 6 correspondents at our -- of our own and we deplore that 7 the CBC staff has been diminished. 8 747 Danny Schecter, an American award 9 winning television producer, is co-founder and 10 executive producer of Global Vision in New York. In 11 his book, "The More You Watch The Less You Know", he 12 describes American television, and then he asks: What 13 can we do? One of his suggestions is to promote public 14 television. He says, "There is no reason why America 15 cannot have a publicly owned BBC or CBC-style public TV 16 system to effectively compete with the commercial 17 system. It is time to put the public back into public 18 television with more locally elected community boards 19 to encourage PBS to return to its original mandate, 20 calling for alternative voices and more diverse program 21 choices." 22 748 He suggests that CBC could be funded 23 through a tax on commercial television stations and 24 their advertisers. There needs to be at least one 25 channel that serves the public interest in the broadest StenoTran 172 1 possible way. 2 749 The CBC does this for Canada. The 3 CBC is vital to the well-being of Canada where citizens 4 still take an interest in the environment. They still 5 vote in elections and they are concerned about as well 6 as the physical environment, the mental environment. 7 Speaking of our mental environment, Ad Busters had this 8 to say in the winter of '89, which is ten years ago: 9 "Chronic TV watching has become our hidden mental 10 health problem. It is like smoking was 20 years ago, 11 very addictive, a huge percentage of society is hooked 12 and no one wants to talk about it. We have created a 13 culture in which it is normal for people to spend a 14 quarter of their waking lives in front of a TV set. 15 Our children learn more from TV than they do in school 16 and what do they learn? From MTV and Much Music they 17 learn to absorb a barrage of sex, violence and beer 18 ads. If they tune into an afternoon soap opera, they 19 learn that adults drink to feel comfortable, use drugs 20 for fun and have sex with each other's mates. From the 21 evening news, they learn the world events can be 22 understood in 30-second clips. Most of all, they learn 23 how to consume. By the time they graduate from high 24 school, North American teenagers have absorbed 350,000 25 TV commercials and thousands of programs, most of which StenoTran 173 1 are themselves ads for a lifetime of consumption." 2 750 CBC radio and TV are unique and 3 invaluable to concerned citizens. They must survive. 4 Funding must be restored so that advertising is not 5 needed. Instead of allowing advertisers to write off 6 the costs as tax breaks, which amounts to billions of 7 dollars, why not tax advertising to pay for an ad-free 8 TV? 9 751 The CRTC should give support to this 10 vital service and be patriotic enough to give 11 preference at all times to Canada's network. This 12 nation needs this lifeline. 13 --- Applause / Applaudissements 14 752 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Ms McNab. 15 753 MS VOGEL: Our next presenters this 16 afternoon are Robyn Smith and the Raging Grannies. 17 754 May I suggest that you turn on all of 18 the microphones that are closest to you? 19 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 20 755 THE RAGING GRANNIES (IN SONG): 21 We love our Canadian radio, 22 It's the only thing keeping us sane, 23 The others are mostly noise stations, 24 For people with half of a brain. 25 As It Happens, Ideas, and opera and Almanac, StenoTran 174 1 News shows, art plugs, and 2 Don't you dare touch Arthur Black. 3 What is it that keeps us united, 4 Informed and enlightened as well, 5 Mess with our national media 6 And we'll tell you to go to -- the States. 7 Oh, we're just a gaggle of grannies, 8 Urging you off of your fannies, 9 Tell the CRTC 10 Save CBC. 11 No more cuts! 12 The CBC is our lifeline. 13 From Gander to Queen Charlotte Island 14 Private stations don't care, 15 They just want our air 16 No more cuts! 17 Sheila did a Copp out 18 And gave away most of the funds 19 Meant for television 20 To guess who? Jean and his friends. 21 Oh, we're just a gaggle of grannies, 22 But we've gotten off of our fannies, 23 We're telling you now, 24 We're angry and how 25 No more cuts! StenoTran 175 1 We really mean it 2 No more cuts! 3 --- Applause / Applaudissements 4 756 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, ladies. 5 757 MS VOGEL: Our next presenters this 6 afternoon are Mr. and Mrs. Ray Walker. You can pull 7 that microphone right over to the edge of the table. 8 Just push the white button whenever you are ready. 9 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 10 758 MR. AND MRS. RAY WALKER: I am going 11 to read a number of things that my husband has written 12 on behalf of him because it is difficult for him to 13 talk. 14 759 Disability gives me a perspective 15 that is like being the canary in the mine. Cultural 16 developments, technological trends and changes often 17 hit us fragile people earlier and harder, and this is 18 not always a bad thing, especially in Canada. 19 760 My pencil is an IBM Pentium, voice 20 activated with Dragon Dictate 3.0. I write stories. 21 Several have found their way on to the CBC. They are 22 part of a book I envision that will finally complete my 23 MA in communications. 24 761 Gradually, I have been losing many of 25 the faculties usually associated with communication. StenoTran 176 1 By intentionally attempting to communicate in spite of 2 this, I have gained a great deal. Being disabled 3 provides almost continuous opportunities for sitting. 4 We have to wait, listening and watching. It is a 5 chance to observe and to think. May I share some of 6 this with you? 7 762 Somehow as a culture, we have bought 8 into this notion that enough is no longer possible and 9 excess of every description is in. Along these lines, 10 might this just be a dated metaphor? I also hear 11 frequently that the CBC budget is not within the 12 mandate or control of the CRTC, but I believe your Web 13 site is, and to me it is illustrative. Forty-seven 14 pages devoted to the Information Highway, about a page 15 and a half for TV, a bit more than a page on cable, 16 somewhat less than a page on the telephone, and 17 two-thirds of a page for radio. 18 763 I have come because I want to talk 19 about the old CBC AM radio -- whoa -- either I didn't 20 read the program or I am not, as they say, up to speed, 21 or I am going to need divine intervention. 22 764 Well, I am a canary in a mine, one 23 who knows he is, too, and I really miss the non-elitist 24 depth and the enthusiastic appreciation for people, the 25 heart and the skill that is no longer front and centre. StenoTran 177 1 AM radio wasn't broken and it got fixed. 2 765 The consequences of this neutering, 3 this trivialization will be dire. Many have spoken 4 much more definitively and heartfelt than I, but how 5 many Jeremiah's do you need? 6 766 When Sancho Ponza was being 7 hornswoggled into governing an island against 8 overwhelming odds and complexities, Don Quixote, the 9 wind-tilting knight, said, "Oh son, perpetual witness 10 of all the opposite, flame of the world, I of the sky, 11 you behind the sweet refreshment of wine, Apollo to 12 some, Phoebus to others, hero warrior, there a healer, 13 source of poetry, inventor of music, you who are always 14 getting up and in spite of appearances never goes to 15 bed, I sincerely ask you, oh you through whose 16 assistance man is able to give life to man, to warm and 17 illuminate our gloomy imagination, so that my telling 18 of this story might keep pace with the great Sancho 19 Ponza's actions throughout his governance, for I feel 20 myself benumbed, confused and dispirited without your 21 presence. 22 767 About 30 years ago, John Lily, M.D., 23 got out of his sensory deprivation tank and called the 24 president. The man who introduced us to the wonder of 25 dolphins had had what seemed at that time a really StenoTran 178 1 bizarre vision. In it, he had become very powerfully 2 convinced that there was going to be a life and death 3 struggle between hard silicon-based beings and us soft 4 organic carbon-based life forms. So certain was he of 5 the significance of this that his efforts to 6 communicate it to the powers that be got him moved into 7 the ranks of the mentally ill. 8 768 The disabled are particularly 9 vulnerable, both to the barriers and the solutions of 10 technology. I am not a highwayman, one of the 11 technologically literate elite. This computer is the 12 only pen I could find, and while I am grateful beyond 13 belief, it is a poor and wearying substitute for a pen 14 or a person, and so expensive in so many different 15 ways. 16 769 A great deal of effort has been 17 expended to make me independent and able to do on my 18 own. And there is no joy in being someone else's 19 burden, so this is good. But my wife reads better than 20 Text Reader, so does anybody she ruefully remarks. Of 21 course. They say it is only a matter of time before we 22 will be able to, as my basement graveyard of computers 23 attests. I miss her these days. She is usually on the 24 phone, trying to get something replaced, repaired or 25 explained while I wait overwhelmed, weary and StenoTran 179 1 discouraged at my screen. 2 770 Now, I don't feel the same way about 3 the CBC radio. My hardware costs less than $10. Last 4 night, I heard music from the Sudan and Gerome Bruner 5 and Carol Feldman talking for an hour. What would it 6 take for a quadriplegic in a cabin on Vancouver Island 7 to duplicate that? 8 771 Just to get the books or the CDs, 9 Danny's 45 or Rex's chats with everybody, and I have 10 talked with Rex, Glenn Gould live or Don and Minnie 11 Pearl spontaneously and utterly unexpectedly, even to 12 themselves, doing a scene from Hamlet. 13 772 Barbara telephoned everywhere and 14 even Idi Amin picked up the phone. This, my window, my 15 people, my country, and I thank you Canadians from the 16 bottom of my heart. 17 773 There is also a poem that he wrote. 18 774 A pile of cliches that mean, I have 19 feet that roll and a pen that is a dragon, the canary 20 in the mine, that is me, the exception that proves the 21 rule. McLuhan said that the hammer is an extension of 22 the hand. When you have only a hammer, Mark Twain 23 said, everything looks like a nail. And a good piece 24 of language can heal or kill. What the CBC means to me 25 -- what? Are you spamming me a troll? What did I do StenoTran 180 1 on my summer vacation? Oh my people, I call to you but 2 you did not answer, I spoke to you but you did not 3 hear. So how many canaries does it take to dance on 4 the head of a pin? Oh Canada, it is all just shineola 5 to these boys. You Kabuki techno lords with the 6 burning eyes, I am here in the garden with the radio 7 on. It is still and there is always room for one more. 8 Listen. Can we talk? 9 775 Radio One, it is practical, 10 affordable, non-elitist. It is a global leader now. 11 The infrastructure is already in place. We can provide 12 more real jobs for real Canadians with creativity, 13 skill, depth, and training. Radio One is the people 14 medium. It is already accessible everywhere. It is 15 the people's media. It is already great and of course 16 improvable. It is already a tradition. It is already 17 unique. It is meaningful. It is cool. It is clearly 18 Canadian. It is our own and it is CBC. 19 776 Thank you. 20 --- Applause / Applaudissements 21 777 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you both for 22 coming today. 23 778 MS VOGEL: Our next presenter this 24 afternoon is Laurel Payne. Is Laurel Payne here? 25 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION StenoTran 181 1 779 MR. LAURIE PAYNE: Hi, Laurie Payne. 2 780 That is a very deeply inspiring 3 presentation to follow. 4 781 In a sense I come here, too, as a 5 canary in a mine. 6 782 During the last 25 years, I have been 7 during the winter months a continuous listener to CBC 8 radio as I went about my work in my studio. CBC radio 9 has not only been consistently good, it has been for 10 those who can't bear the indignity of being shouted at 11 to buy hamburgers and other commodities, the only game 12 in town. 13 783 Some programs, most programs, 14 "Ideas", Eleanor Wachtel, the Saturday and Sunday 15 shows, have been and are consistently excellent. 16 Others, perhaps less so, but even Danny Finkelman at 17 his worst is a tad above the commercial stations. 18 784 But since it is the only game in 19 town, and since it is public broadcasting, there are 20 integrities which CBC radio must observe. These are 21 the integrities of fairness, justice, impartiality, 22 coherence, political neutrality and, above all, gender 23 impartiality. It is here it seems to me that CBC has 24 strayed a little. 25 785 Beginning in the late '70's and StenoTran 182 1 continuing at an accelerated pace, a new and strident 2 feminist agenda began to make its appearance. During 3 those two decades into the '90s, the debate about 4 political correctness began to be staged on radio 5 broadcasting. That correctness, it soon appeared, 6 meant that old discriminatory attitudes towards Blacks, 7 religious minorities like Jews and women, were 8 progressively tabooed. The new felicities were not, 9 however, extended to Islam, and in a way included white 10 males. On the contrary, male bashing became the 11 fashion on CBC radio, especially on "Morningside", "As 12 It Happens" and the regional programs. 13 786 In the early '80s, the day on which 14 men -- not some men but all men generically -- were not 15 described as violent to women and children, was a 16 rarity and the manner and style and incidence of that 17 violence became a regular and increasing part of the 18 morning fare. 19 787 So, for example, I listened to 20 Marilyn French tell the world, with the help of 21 taxpayers' money, that all men -- not some men, but all 22 men, generically -- were rapists. The show's host, 23 Peter Gzowski, didn't demure on my behalf, or our 24 behalf. 25 788 During this period, the anti-male StenoTran 183 1 hatred spread in quantity and intensity in the middle 2 of the early '90s when it began to taper. During that 3 time, letters written to CBC shows and to management 4 were ignored or brushed off. Males who didn't like 5 being targeted anti-male hatred could switch off or 6 shut up, or both. Letters were never, ever in my 7 experience aired on the shows in question. A wall of 8 gender censorship had fallen around CBC radio. 9 789 It seemed at times like a new 10 McCarthyism. It was obvious that the doors were wide 11 open to feminism and, the more radical, the better. 12 Now, feminism is vital and imparts an incredibly 13 beneficial ideology that all fair men have supported, 14 and should certainly support, and it should certainly 15 be on public radio, but so should its counter-foil, and 16 its critics. They weren't. 17 790 We listened as Gzowski fulminated in 18 rage and indignation about the engineering student who 19 had said something which was held to be disrespectful 20 of feminists and his raised pack cry helped have the 21 young man in question expelled from the university. 22 Shortly afterwards, we listened as Gzowski chuckled and 23 tittered with a young woman from the same university, 24 UBC, who published a book entitled, "101 Uses For A 25 Severed Penis". This book was sold in the university StenoTran 184 1 book store shortly after Lorena Bobbitt brutally 2 mutilated her husband. How could he be so biased and 3 calloused, we asked ourselves, and Gzowski, with equal 4 ineffectiveness. Mr. Gzowski is a feminist. 5 791 Well, the '80s and early '90s and the 6 verbal and intellectual violence done to men in that 7 period are now history. There has been a slow slacking 8 off from the level of misandrism, which has been the 9 decade's broadcasting spore. It seems that it is less 10 acceptable to bash males today. But it has by no means 11 ceased and that residual level of bias and anti-male 12 discrimination is still alive and well and is the 13 subject of my paper to you today. 14 792 Michael Enright and Avril Benoit and 15 Barbara Budd and Mary Lou Finlay carry the flaming 16 cross lit by Gzowski, and on their program it is 17 commonly accepted for feminists to repeat the gender 18 feminist agenda about violence to women and children by 19 men; and, in doing so, they are never questioned, 20 despite the fact that they have been informed about the 21 equality of male-female domestic violence as 22 established by studies such as Steinmitz, Gillers, 23 Murray, and many others. 24 793 The CBC management and radio and 25 staff have been advised that the majority of violence StenoTran 185 1 against children is committed by females and they have 2 that information about those studies. I have 3 personally sent them to them and I know they have 4 interviewed Senator Anne Cools and been advised of 5 their existence. 6 794 Yet, the men's violence against women 7 and children party line is never challenged. The 8 anti-male bias today, however, manifests itself more 9 subliminally. One of these ways is the failure of 10 radio hosts to challenge statistics. For example, 11 during the war around Sarajevo, the morning show and 12 "As It Happens", repeatedly featured the "reports" of a 13 woman correspondent who talked about 5,000 women being 14 raped in this conflict. Now, this report came at a 15 time when the city and the war zone was completely shut 16 off and isolated from outside observation, when even 17 the most intrepid correspondent couldn't get in, and 18 even numbers of the dead were unavailable. Yet, the 19 patently phoney reports were repeated and repeated and 20 followed by commentary about the need for men to stop 21 their violence towards women, et cetera. 22 795 Contemporary bias shows in the way in 23 which programming favours female interest areas over 24 male areas. For example, one day a little while ago 25 began with an hour of discussion on menopause, followed StenoTran 186 1 by programs about a Chinese woman who had overcome the 2 restraints of patriarchal custom and was living on her 3 own while in a family setting. This was followed by a 4 program about an Iranian woman and her struggle to 5 integrate; and this was topped off with yet another 6 female interest program whose title I have forgotten. 7 796 At times listening to CBC radio it 8 almost seems as if one is eavesdropping on women 9 talking about and to women and one begins to wonder if 10 there are indeed two genders. 11 797 Where this may seem to be a minor 12 irritation, but the subliminal message that is being 13 sent to men is that in this culture they are not 14 important or valid. Discussions about dead beat dads, 15 men's familial obligations, divorce, family law 16 repercussions and implications, in fact, all, not some, 17 but all issues where the conflicting interests of the 18 genders is at issue are conducted with women talking to 19 women lawyers and women social workers and women 20 sociologists, et cetera. 21 798 I am not exaggerating this fact. I 22 have never heard gender issues opened up to men, ever. 23 Consider how CBC radio reports disasters, plane 24 crashes, mine disasters, bombings. If the disaster is 25 in a mine where the males are the only sex represented, StenoTran 187 1 the victims are referred to as workers, miners, people, 2 crew, personnel, et cetera. They are systematically 3 desexed and by being desexed dehumanized and devalued. 4 If, however, the disaster includes females, the typical 5 report format is something to this effect: A bomb 6 exploded in the main market in Jerusalem killing 15, 7 five women and three children were among the dead. Or 8 a Swissair 747 crashed off Nova Scotia killing 100, 9 including 40 women and children. The message is clear 10 -- the lives of women, according to CBC radio, are more 11 important and valuable than those of men and therefore 12 more newsworthy when they are terminated. 13 799 In case this, too, should appear 14 trivial, I invite you to imagine that you are a Negro 15 or a Jew and that day after day you hear disaster 16 accounts in this format: A bomb went off in 17 Mississippi today killing 18, five whites were among 18 the dead. A bomb exploded in Tel Aviv, three 19 Christians were among the dead. Slowly, day, report by 20 report, you get the message, that males are disposable, 21 their lives are of lesser value and therefore by 22 extension their opinions, values, the integrity of 23 their sexuality, their visions, their feelings, and 24 their very souls are inferior. This is the subliminal 25 message being sent when feminist agenda dictates who StenoTran 188 1 gets the money for documentaries, who gets interviewed, 2 who gets to read poetry, whose short stories are heard, 3 which sex the interviewed scientist should be. This is 4 the message being sent to end the conjunct, women and 5 children are being used again and again, excluding as 6 it does men from the human family and relegating them 7 to the unimportant and disposable. 8 800 Consider how fastidious CBC is about 9 "chairperson", et cetera, and how content with 10 "gunman", "midwife". This is part of the mentality 11 that allows us to label the almost completely male army 12 of suffering and deprivation when we report on them on 13 CBC as street people and the homeless. If the sex of 14 the homeless happened to be predominantly female, they 15 would be enumerated by sex and their condition would be 16 improved overnight. 17 801 I bring these things before the 18 committee today because they are an invisible virus of 19 inhumanitarianism running through our broadcasting 20 policy and, as such, it needs correction. 21 802 There is an urgent need for a fully 22 funded radio watch committee, just like the one funded 23 to look after women's interests, to document the 24 problem and bring it to light and remediation. It is 25 vital that male voices are represented in political StenoTran 189 1 gender issues. There are, after all, no rights and no 2 wrongs in human gender discussions. The vital content 3 is the dialogue itself. But censorship of one side or 4 the other is a wrong, and a wrong that is absolutely 5 and terribly dangerous to our most intimate and our 6 vital relationships to each other and the very nerve 7 centre of our society. 8 803 I am sorry to say that a despite all 9 its wonderful qualities, CBC radio is an active agent 10 of misandrism, male hatred and discrimination. In the 11 name of social health, of fairness, of humanitarianism, 12 and for our sons we need to correct it. That need is 13 part of the integrities I mentioned which is the 14 mandate of the corporation granted by the public. 15 Without these integrities, there is no justification 16 whatsoever for the corporation's continuance, no matter 17 how stellar its technical performance. 18 804 I would personally love to see it 19 continue, but justly, fairly, and free of the taint of 20 gender bias. 21 805 Thank you. 22 806 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 23 Payne. 24 --- Applause / Applaudissements 25 807 MS VOGEL: Our next presenter this StenoTran 190 1 afternoon is Mr. Reid. 2 808 Mr. Reid? 3 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 4 809 MR. T.H. REID: Thank you. I will be 5 very brief. I am here today because I support the CBC. 6 I feel that the CBC keeps me informed with what is 7 going on in the rest of Canada and, not only that, in 8 the rest of the world. 9 810 I am one of those people who have 10 reached the age I can't sleep at nights, and I listen 11 to Radio Australia, Deutsche Welle, Austria 12 International -- all this comes to me by the CBC. 13 811 The reason I asked to speak today is 14 I am very concerned. I am concerned about the fact, as 15 I read in the paper, that there is a movement under way 16 to have one news manager in Ottawa. I feel this is 17 wrong. I feel it is too close to the Prime Minister's 18 office. I feel that the CBC should be divorced from 19 any relationship with the Prime Minister's office 20 entirely. I feel that it should -- 21 --- Applause / Applaudissements. 22 812 MR. T.H. REID: I feel that it should 23 be under a separate committee, maybe of various parties 24 in the government, and report to them. I feel also 25 that the person who is appointed to head the CBC should StenoTran 191 1 be not a political appointment. I feel it should be 2 one outside of that. 3 813 Also, Canada does not revolve around 4 the Ottawa-Montreal-Toronto triangle. 5 --- Applause / Applaudissements. 6 814 MR. T.H. REID: The reason I say this 7 if the government wants to have a department of 8 propaganda, a ministry of propaganda to control our 9 thinking, why don't they just come out and say it? Why 10 beat around the bush? I feel that what is being done 11 to the reporter, Mr. Milewski, who I don't know except 12 seen him on the television, is a crime. The man was 13 doing his job. He was reporting it as he saw it. He 14 certainly is entitled to have free thoughts, but I 15 don't think he should be put under the strain and 16 stress that he has been by the Prime Minister's office. 17 I think that is wrong. This is a very democratic 18 country -- or supposed to be -- let's keep it that way. 19 815 Finally, I would just like to say 20 that the CBC, as it was said in Charlottetown, is not 21 for the youth; it is for the people who have sown their 22 wild oats, if you want to put it that way, and who have 23 turned around and reached the stage in life where they 24 want to be informed and listen to things other than the 25 rock bands. I don't think that any country in the StenoTran 192 1 world can complain about the way the CBC presents Peter 2 Gzowski, Bill Richardson on the West Coast, and all the 3 other ones. We are very fortunate. We get information 4 and we get some nice dialogue and I hope we never get 5 into a lot of propaganda. That worries me. 6 816 I am just a country boy, but I enjoy 7 the CBC and I am proud to be a Canadian. But I want to 8 end up by telling you one thing that happened that I 9 can't understand. I was travelling in Ireland and I 10 walked up to the bar and the barkeep said to me, "Where 11 are you from in the states?" And I said, "I am not an 12 American". He said, "What are you?" And I can't 13 explain this, but my reply to him was, "I am a British 14 Columbian". 15 817 So, on those remarks, I would like to 16 thank you for giving you my opportunity to say my 17 piece. Thank you. 18 --- Applause / Applaudissements 19 818 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 20 Reid. 21 819 MS VOGEL: I with like to invite 22 Frederica Bolton to come forward and make her 23 presentation, please. 24 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 25 820 MS FREDERICA BOLTON: CBC radio is a StenoTran 193 1 joy to me. I speak only for myself, but I am a former 2 registered nurse, retired in good standing and 3 honourary member of my alumni association. 4 821 I consider our health and sickness 5 care to be the best in the world. This is being 6 repeated over and over again. 7 822 CBC radio keeps us informed of our 8 health care. In fact, it helps keep the health care 9 costs down. An informed public is most important for a 10 democracy. 11 823 CBC needs to increase its staff. We 12 have the best minds working in the CBC. There is 13 unemployment in the country so therefore we should be 14 employing far more people in the CBC and taking care of 15 those workers who are already there, the technicians, 16 the reporters, the announcers, all across the board. 17 It is our most cherished possession -- the CBC radio. 18 I hope you will increase the funding. 19 824 Thank you. 20 --- Applause / Applaudissements 21 825 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mrs. 22 Bolton. 23 826 MS VOGEL: I just want to do a check 24 to make sure that no one has come in that was scheduled 25 to present that we haven't heard this afternoon. StenoTran 194 1 827 Marsha Drake; Chris Cartier; Joseph 2 Cowan; Mr. Prasad; Shirley Ridalls; Judith McDowell; 3 Elizabeth Fralick; and Ian Benson. 4 828 That completes the list. 5 829 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think what we 6 will do is take a 15-minute break and reconvene at 25 7 past four and, if some of the scheduled presenters have 8 appeared, we will reconvene then. 9 830 Thank you. 10 --- Recess at 1613 / Suspension à 1613 11 --- Upon resuming at 1629 / Reprise à 1629 12 831 MS VOGEL: I believe that Shirley 13 Ridalls is ready. Is that how you pronounce your name? 14 Whenever you are ready, just hit the white button. 15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 16 832 MS SHIRLEY RIDALLS: Thank you. 17 833 Good afternoon to the panel and to 18 any other presenters and interested others. 19 834 I will argue for an even stricter and 20 non-privatized continuation of the CBC -- stop the 21 cuts. They are of no value to us as a country. For my 22 part, I am going to be very direct and I thought I 23 would say fasten your seat belts because we are going 24 on a journey. 25 835 I have up to now considered the CBC StenoTran 195 1 as a string that has kept us Canadians together from 2 sea to sea and later the other sea for 61 years. I now 3 regard it as it should have been regarded as a hawser 4 rope, those big thick things that hold ships to the 5 shore. 6 836 In the past two decades in 7 particular, it has been worn down, beaten up, 8 downsized, criticized and any other adverb that you can 9 put to it, from a string to a thread. I ask you to 10 increase that thread back up to the hawser rope. 11 837 Unfortunately, it has been done by 12 government and inert apathetic view of the population 13 by whom doubt and seem not to care and have any 14 appreciation for their listening or their viewing of 15 their actors, fellow Canadians, the innovators, the 16 technicians, all that belong to the CBC. 17 838 I realize it is a Canadian thing to 18 have a ho-hum attitude toward a good Canadian 19 enterprise and not to recognize it for its worth, or 20 its value. So let us do an un-Canadian thing and give 21 it a resounding and needed support. 22 839 On the farm in Saskatchewan, the 23 grain quotations were extremely important to us. The 24 long winter nights with cards and reading, but then 25 there was Saturday night at "Hockey Night in Canada" StenoTran 196 1 with Foster Hewett. And then there was W.O. Mitchell 2 with "Jake and the Kid". The Happy Gang came along 3 with their particular brand of fun and humour. 4 840 It was all looked forward to and then 5 we come into the war years and our broadcasters were 6 down there in Argentina and for three days we held on 7 wondering what was going to happen. Finally, the big 8 German battle ship was sunk in the mouth of the river 9 Platt in Argentina, but we held on for three days 10 listening to this. All the war correspondents, Matthew 11 Houghton, Peter Stursberg, Marcel Ouimet, they were all 12 there for us, and they told us what was going on in the 13 war, but they told us what they wanted us to know. 14 841 Then there was Lorne Greene reading 15 the news, dubbed the "voice of doom" because he always 16 came through with the bombings and everything. He went 17 on to bigger and better things in Hollywood, but he got 18 his training, his experience, in everything at the CBC. 19 He had his own ability, but he did need the experience. 20 842 We have produced good reporters and I 21 will point out that they must be good because they are 22 going to the United States and they are welcomed with 23 open arms and big dollars. 24 843 In TV all the newscasters are 25 present, Peter Mansbridge, Knowlton Nash, Peter Kent, StenoTran 197 1 all the way down to Ed Brown. They presented the news 2 to us, they kept us together. They did represent us 3 from sea to sea and they told us what was going on. 4 The mine disaster in Nova Scotia, Springhill, all of 5 these things. 6 844 Now on to radio, "As It Happens" with 7 our dear Barbara Frum, later to go on to TV. Could 8 anyone surpass her as an interviewer? I was speaking 9 to a gentleman the other day and he said, "Barbara got 10 in touch with a Sheik in Arabia and he said how did you 11 get my telephone number and she said, I have a very 12 efficient staff." Could she get everything out of an 13 interview that she really wanted to? She had the 14 ability. As a tribute, CBC have named the new atrium 15 after her, and what a lovely tribute to her. 16 845 Where would we have been without 17 Peter Gzowski to open up the country from sea to sea 18 and latterly the north? He told us how the north 19 lived, what they did, how they thought, what their 20 aspirations were, and this is where he has kept us 21 together. 22 846 Likewise, Vicky Gabereau, with her 23 very good sense of humour and her form of interviewing 24 worldwide people. Unfortunately, they were both 25 summarily dumped by the CBC. StenoTran 198 1 847 The "Beachcombers" and our own Bruno 2 Gerussi, the "Beachcombers" were sold to 35 different 3 countries and it represented us, Canadians. 4 848 Our actors reflect our culture. They 5 reflect us like a mirror. When I say "culture" we 6 struggle with our identity and we are now going to get 7 into a battle with the United States over the simple 8 word "culture". If we don't honour, hold and support 9 the CBC, any identity will rather fade away. 10 849 In an instance here in British 11 Columbia, BCTV has Canada AM, good, informative, 12 program, but right afterwards there are two well 13 coiffured, well made up, well dressed stooges sitting 14 on a stool each gossiping about people that you and I 15 have no idea what they are talking about. It seems 16 that no one wants to be educated or be informed or have 17 good theatre. 18 850 I call this sort of thing the wheel 19 of fortune or to turn a wheel down, I call it garbage 20 in and garbage out. 21 851 "Anne of Green Gables" has been with 22 us for some time, thanks to Maud Montgomery, and how 23 many Japanese couples have been married at Anne of 24 Green Gables and how did they find out about Anne of 25 Green Gables? I guess it must have been through StenoTran 199 1 something that the CBC did. 2 852 Our actors work here, they live here, 3 they spend their money here and for a statistic about 4 10 or 12 years ago they produced about $11 million for 5 our economy, and then there is our Shakespearean 6 festival. 7 853 Radio International has brought 8 immigrants to this country. I have listened to them on 9 interview and why they came -- because they liked what 10 they heard, so we must have presented something very 11 well. It might be an un-Canadian thing to do is 12 represent ourselves very well. 13 854 A Canadian woman in Africa finally 14 found "As It Happens", couldn't believe her good luck 15 and bursts into tears because she was home sick. 16 855 Canada Overnight, it is not a very 17 good time, but for the people who are up from 12:30 to 18 6 a.m. they take us around the world. They inform us. 19 They take us to Great Britain, France, Germany, 20 Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, New Zealand, 21 Australia, and that is just a few of the places that 22 they go. And we find out what we are doing well or 23 what we are not doing well. We find out that they have 24 the same problems as we do. 25 856 But somehow or other we don't do it. StenoTran 200 1 We do the un-Canadian thing and don't do it. I 2 remember the Plouffe family on the radio, what a 3 delight. The Plouffe family isn't any more and what do 4 we get from Quebec? We do need to have things from 5 Quebec. We now have a kind of shoot 'em up program. 6 But we need something during the day or the later night 7 so that we get some flavour of Quebec. I don't know 8 what flavour they get of us. 9 857 If the CBC is strangled, I can 10 foresee us going backwards and being Balkanized, which 11 we used to be. It was then you are in the west, it is 12 east, and there was no talk of the Maritimes. Now, we 13 have the west battling central Canada and east trying 14 for their share and Quebec needs their share also. 15 858 Central Canada can no longer be the 16 wheel, the hub, but we can't operate in isolation any 17 more, we have to be a country from sea to sea to sea. 18 The one thing that I guess I resent very much is if I 19 travel to Chilliwack my truck radio gives out and I get 20 a U.S. station and I resent that wholeheartedly. 21 859 If we cut any more, we really will 22 isolate Quebec. We will have tunnel vision for our own 23 regions. 24 860 Unfortunately, we will then get a 25 blanc mange of news and theatre and intelligence, what StenoTran 201 1 a pity that would be. It would be the Canadian thing 2 to take the blancmange. Why not do the un-Canadian 3 thing and grasp the CBC with both hands and hold on 4 tight? We and other national broadcasters are 5 presumably in jeopardy. I suggest that if we don't 6 hold our national broadcasters, that we will be in 7 jeopardy of having a -- and in peril of having this 8 blancmange of listening and viewing. 9 861 I will take a few words from our own 10 Lieutenant-Colonel John McRae, and I will talk about 11 the torch that we carry and others carry for the CBC. 12 We throw it to you for you to hold high, so, please, do 13 not fail us. Thank you. 14 862 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 15 Ridalls. 16 863 MS SHIRLEY RIDALLS: I would like to 17 show you a 1998 CBC early years calendar. Frank 18 Shuster, the Happy Gang, that I spoke of, Marcel 19 Ouimet, there is Lorne Greene, there is Glenn Gould, 20 now a very prestigious thing, and there is Uncle 21 Chicakamus in Hollyhock, and there is Maggie Muggins, 22 the Sleeping Princess, and there is the -- golly, 23 Gordie Tapp, Lorraine Foreman, the Tommy Hunter Show, 24 and here is our CBC, the Front Page Challenge, and 25 there is Frank Shuster, Wayne and Shuster again. They StenoTran 202 1 were invited back to Ed Sullivan 17 times and they were 2 asked to host it five or six times and the Americans 3 couldn't understand that. They couldn't understand 4 that. Here is This Hour Has Seven Days. There is the 5 Friendly Giant. Good heavens, there is Don Messer and 6 the Islanders, Just Mary, Mary Gagnon. There is Earl 7 Cameron, Robert Goulet, Chez Hélène. Didn't have the 8 opportunity to hear Chez Hélène, and our own just 9 departed Clyde Gilmour and Foster Hewett, Max Ferguson 10 and alley McVey. Thank you. 11 864 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 12 865 MS VOGEL: Our next presenter this 13 afternoon is Robert Tivy. 14 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 15 866 MR. ROBERT TIVY: Thank you for 16 bringing me on. I just wanted to say that I am not 17 going to be able to add much to what some of the 18 previous speakers have said, including the most recent 19 one. But I spent a couple of hours in the other 20 conference room in the early afternoon, and then I have 21 been here for about the last hour, and enjoyed it all. 22 I noticed that there was quite a preponderance of 23 support in favour of the CBC radio. 24 867 My wife and I both listen to CBC 25 radio, particularly musical programs, and we heartily StenoTran 203 1 support it, too, but unless I missed it in the time I 2 went out for a coffee or whatever I didn't hear very 3 much specifically about the CBC television. So I 4 thought that perhaps I could just take a couple of 5 minutes and say that my wife and I both do watch CBC 6 television and value it highly for many years. 7 868 We have lived and worked in seven of 8 our ten provinces and so we have sort of an ear for the 9 various regions of our country. But the previous 10 speaker had of course mentioned the "Beachcombers" 11 which is something of B.C., if you will, and "North of 12 60" has been mentioned a couple of times, whites and 13 aboriginals in the north, which is very good. "Jake 14 and the Kid" for the Prairies, and there is one still 15 running "Wind At My Back" which is representative of an 16 Ontario story, family story, and in Quebec in addition 17 to the Plouffes there was a very good series called 18 Emily which was its English name. It was Les filles du 19 Louis, or something like that, en français and I have 20 forgotten the man's name. Sorry about that. 21 869 Then at the present time, recently, 22 there has been the last two or three years "Black 23 Harbour" which is representative of Nova Scotia and the 24 Maritimes. These all impart a distinct flavour of 25 their own region and yet they are something that we StenoTran 204 1 feel is enjoyable by all of us and helps us see the 2 other parts of the country. 3 870 I read something recently with which 4 I agree which said that we should try for instance to 5 get more representation of Quebec characters and things 6 that are shown in the west, and I think the previous 7 speaker echoed that, too, and we should of course try 8 to see more of our other cultures as able to be heard 9 in French. 10 871 We of course do hear quite a bit of 11 our French artists in song, and I recently saw the 12 Cirque du Soleil in Florida at Disneyworld, and it is a 13 marvellous, marvellous presentation. Our next door 14 neighbour saw the version of Cirque du Soleil in Las 15 Vegas in the new hotel there and they say it is 16 similarly good. So it shows the type of talent that we 17 have if we can keep presenting it and bringing it along 18 and spreading it around. 19 872 We even turn every week to get a 20 laugh at the "Royal Canadian Air Farce". It is a 21 little crude at times in some ways, but it is a way of 22 laughing at ourselves and we enjoy the depictions that 23 are put forward there. 24 873 I think that is about all I would 25 like to say. I appreciate having been able to come and StenoTran 205 1 hear the various speakers and presentations and we 2 certainly hope that CBC can be continued, improved 3 where it may require, or change with the times where 4 required, but it is a vital part of our Canadian life 5 and I always say that I don't want to see them get rid 6 of the Canadian post office or VIA Rail Canada or CBC, 7 but I would place CBC at the top of the list of the 8 things that we think we need to continue to be a 9 unified nation. 10 874 Thank you very much. 11 875 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 12 Tivy, very much. 13 876 MS VOGEL: I would like to call Mr. 14 Iain Benson to come to make his presentation, please. 15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 16 877 MR. IAIN BENSON: Thank you very much 17 for agreeing to see me this late in the afternoon. I 18 would like to thank the CRTC for this opportunity to 19 address a few brief comments to you today on a matter 20 of real importance to Canada. 21 878 I am here to address that aspect of 22 the question that I think is important not only for the 23 CBC but all aspects of Canadian public life. We need 24 the open discussion of what binds us together as 25 citizens, what we hold to be most true about our common StenoTran 206 1 lives together and what our various traditions, 2 including religious traditions, have to offer us all in 3 this task of understanding. 4 879 Like many people, I am concerned that 5 the discussions about religion and religious traditions 6 are being driven from the public agenda in area after 7 area. I myself have had the privilege of being on most 8 of the major CBC programs, most recently on "Ideas", 9 and I am greatly privileged to have had that 10 opportunity, but I am very concerned that as a part of 11 what you recommend in a licensing review you advocate 12 very clearly the need for CBC to address in more forums 13 than it currently does the importance of religion to 14 Canadian culture. This is important because the shared 15 faith of a culture is not just expressed in terms of 16 its main religious traditions. 17 880 Everybody has a natural faith, 18 whether they are religious or not. It is now well 19 recognized by historians of culture that cultures need 20 a robust understanding of what these faith commitments 21 are in order for citizenship to be maintained over time 22 and for the glue in a sense, the binding force of a 23 culture, to remain effective. 24 881 As a constitutional lawyer and one 25 involved in the debates that one sees between different StenoTran 207 1 rights' claimants, it is imperative in Canada if we are 2 going to have law and media and politics functioning 3 well that those binding principles that keep us all 4 together, no matter what group we are in, are 5 refurbished, brushed off, kept before the public eye, 6 and this involves the media. 7 882 CBC in its programs "Tapestry", 8 "Ideas" and, to a lesser extent, "Cross Country 9 Checkup" has been very important in raising some of 10 those questions of mutual binding that we would see 11 most developed in religion. 12 883 On television, "Man Alive" addresses 13 that, but the rumour is that "Man Alive" is about to be 14 cancelled. That is very, very serious. 15 884 In Canada, we cannot cancel religious 16 programs, or programs designed to raise these important 17 common good questions. We need to encourage them, 18 develop more of them. We simply don't have the luxury 19 of a view of secularism that drives religion out of 20 public discussions. 21 885 Last year, "Tapestry" did a program 22 on religion and science. The requests they had for 23 tapes of that program greatly exceeded any other 24 program that they had done. Statistics Canada in its 25 1991 survey asked the question of Canadians: What StenoTran 208 1 religious category do you put yourself in? The vast 2 majority, close to 90 per cent, put themselves in 3 either the Jewish, Catholic or Protestant categories, 4 and there were other religious categories as well. 5 Significantly, very few Canadians chose no religion for 6 themselves. I think this is important. 7 886 It is a fact of Canadian life that 8 needs to be considered and it needs to, in my 9 respectful submission, be part of your recommendation 10 to the -- in the CRTC licence renewal process. 11 887 It ought to be an important part of 12 the CBC's mandate in the coming millennium to emphasize 13 far more than it does today the importance not only of 14 religious communities to Canada but of religious 15 questions to Canadians. It is not an exaggeration to 16 say that in some great part the future of the country 17 will hinge on how these questions are dealt with. 18 888 My recommendation therefore, Madam 19 Chair, is that you should make increased religious 20 coverage a recommendation for licence renewal. 21 889 Thank you very much. 22 890 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 23 Benson. 24 891 MS VOGEL: Is there anyone who was 25 scheduled to speak who has not yet spoken this StenoTran 209 1 afternoon? 2 892 Then I will invite representatives of 3 CBC to make a few remarks. 4 REPLY / RÉPLIQUE 5 893 MS SUSAN ENGLEBERT: Thank you very 6 much. My name is Susan Englebert. I am the Regional 7 Director of Radio for British Columbia, and on behalf 8 of my colleagues I again would like to thank you for 9 giving us the opportunity to take part in these 10 consultations. 11 894 It has been quite an afternoon, 12 listening to the passion that some people have for the 13 CBC, and also for the very varied opinions that people 14 have about the CBC and what we should be doing. 15 895 As you know, we are going before the 16 Commission in May and we are listening very carefully 17 to everyone's submissions and taking note. We will be 18 contacting every one that has made a presentation here 19 to answer questions. We will certainly be reviewing 20 people's ideas and using these to go into the hearings 21 in May. 22 896 So, again, thank you very much. It 23 has been quite an afternoon. 24 897 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 25 Englebert. We will now adjourn until six p.m. StenoTran 210 1 898 I would like to thank everybody for 2 being here today and those who spoke for sharing their 3 views in helping to inform our decision making. Thank 4 you. 5 --- Recess at 1700 / Suspension à 1700 6 --- Upon resuming at 1800 / Reprise à 1800 7 899 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good evening, 8 ladies and gentlemen. I think we are just about ready 9 to start. 10 900 Welcome to this public consultation 11 on the CBC. This is the third session we have had 12 today. 13 901 My name is Cindy Grauer and I am the 14 CRTC Commissioner for British Columbia and the Yukon. 15 902 We are here to gather your views and 16 comments on CBC radio and television. In your opinion, 17 how should the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation fulfil 18 its role in the coming years? 19 903 The CBC is a national public service, 20 broadcasting in English as well as in French. It plays 21 an important role in the Canadian broadcasting system. 22 Today, many elements are constantly being added to the 23 broadcasting system, as new technologies multiply, 24 converge, open up new horizons, and increasingly offer 25 new services. In this context, we want to know what StenoTran 211 1 are your needs and expectations as viewers and 2 listeners of the CBC. 3 904 Given that, it is very important that 4 the Commission hears what you have to say. We must not 5 lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public 6 organization that serves Canadian citizens. In this 7 capacity, we are responsible to you. This is why my 8 fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to come 9 and meet with you to discuss these issues and why we 10 are holding this series of regional consultations, from 11 one end of the country to the other, in eleven Canadian 12 cities, from March 9th to 18th. 13 905 These consultations are designed to 14 give you a chance, on the eve of a new millennium, to 15 express your opinion on the CBC's role, the programming 16 it offers and the direction it should take at the 17 national, regional and local levels. 18 906 Through these consultations we hope 19 to enter into an open dialogue with you and to hear 20 your concerns. Your comments will form part of the 21 public record which will be added to the record of the 22 public hearing on the CBC that will begin in Hull, next 23 May 25th. 24 907 At this upcoming hearing, the 25 Commission will examine the CBC's application for the StenoTran 212 1 renewal of its licences, including radio, television 2 and its specialty services, Newsworld and Réseau de 3 l'information. You can also take part in that public 4 hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 5 If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the 6 specific licence renewals being examined when you file 7 your comments. 8 908 Now, I would like to come back to 9 today's consultations. Please allow me to introduce 10 the CRTC staff who will be assisting us today: 11 Marguerite Vogel, who will be our hearing manager; and 12 we have Sandra Caw and Peter Healey from our Western 13 and Territories Regional Office. Please feel free to 14 call on them with any questions you might have about 15 the process today, or any other matter. 16 909 So that you will all have the 17 opportunity to speak, we ask that please limit your 18 presentation to ten minutes. As these consultations 19 are a forum designed especially for you, and we want to 20 listen to as many participants as possible, we will not 21 ask any questions, unless we need clarification. 22 910 At the end of this session, 23 representatives from the local CBC stations will have a 24 chance to offer their views, as they are naturally very 25 interested by the issues we are discussing here, today. StenoTran 213 1 911 Before we start, I would ask our 2 legal counsel to go over some of the housekeeping 3 matters regarding the conduct of this consultation. 4 912 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Commissioner 5 Grauer. 6 913 I will be calling the participants in 7 the order in which they registered to participate. If 8 parties aren't here when I first call, I will be 9 recalling from time to time throughout the evening so 10 there is no risk of turning up and not being heard. 11 914 If you are here as an observer and 12 you decide that you want to make some comments, we have 13 comment sheets on the back table right there, where 14 that piece of machinery is. Please feel free to take 15 one of those, fill it in and hand it in to me any time 16 during the evening. Your comments will become part of 17 this process, as well as the oral comments that we will 18 be hearing. 19 915 We would ask you when you are 20 beginning to speak to hit the white button on the 21 microphone, and a red light will come on in the red 22 circle and that will activate the sound system. 23 916 We have court reporters here, to my 24 right at the rear, and there will be a verbatim 25 transcript come out of this part of the hearing. It StenoTran 214 1 will also become part of record. If you are interested 2 in obtaining a copy of that transcript, please approach 3 the court reporter and she will be able to tell you how 4 you can obtain one of the transcripts. 5 917 If any of the presenters have any 6 speaking notes that they would want the Commission to 7 have, please bring them over to me, at your 8 convenience, and those again will become part of the 9 record. 10 918 I would now invite Mr. Sean O'Connell 11 to come and make his presentation. 12 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 13 919 MR. SEAN O'CONNELL: You have my 14 congratulations. You must have been working very hard 15 recently. 16 920 As you can probably tell I am not 17 from around these parts. I was weaned on the BBC -- 18 the "beeb" as it is called. I have had a lifelong 19 admiration for devotion to public service broadcasting. 20 Ever since I was a young kid, I can remember listening 21 to the radio, particularly with my dad listening to the 22 cricket, and the various excellent programs which the 23 Radio Four, as it was in those days -- it was called 24 the home service, but now it is called Radio Four, 25 these jazzy times. It had all sorts of excellent, StenoTran 215 1 excellent programs which you couldn't possibly get on 2 any commercial broadcaster because they don't make 3 money. 4 921 With the exception of the U.S.A., 5 every significant civilized society has some form of 6 public broadcaster, charged with the Rathian principles 7 to inform, to educate and to entertain. It is 8 important to remember the form of words because those 9 are the successive priorities which organizations like 10 Radio Telivisairan (ph) and the BBC, Australian 11 Broadcasting and so on, adopt. It is important to 12 bring people information, to educate them, and only 13 latterly to entertain, if you have got any spare time. 14 Of course, if you can roll all three together, so much 15 the better. 16 922 It is only in the U.S.A., without a 17 national public service broadcaster, do we find the 18 chaotic patchy network of a really gruesome pride of 19 initiatives, really appallingly bad, and a largely 20 uninformed and bellicose population, with little or no 21 knowledge of what goes on outside their national -- or 22 even outside their state -- borders. Do you know only 23 one person in ten in the United States actually owns a 24 passport, as opposed to something like two-thirds of 25 the all Canadians? StenoTran 216 1 923 Now, you have got to ask yourself why 2 this is. Are Americans different genetically from 3 every other human being ever born? No, I don't think 4 so. I think it is to do with the fact that they don't 5 really have a national identity, and a national 6 identity is a function of your education system, and a 7 post-education system which is inevitably your national 8 broadcaster. 9 924 It is my contention that PBS keeps 10 the private guys honest. Because it is answerable to 11 the people rather than to advertisers, or power drunk 12 megalomaniac owners, or even politicians God help us, 13 and it is with a narrow part of honesty, balance and 14 verisimilitude. The very largest thing the PBS can 15 afford is their cheap sleazy diet of vox pop scare 16 crime schlock and sex which permeates the private 17 broadcasters scene to maximize their return for every 18 buck spent. 19 925 My contention is that public 20 broadcasting is not a business; it is a social service, 21 every bit as important to the well-being of a society 22 as a transportation infrastructure, the health service 23 or a police force. 24 926 Without these essential ingredients 25 to the well-being of the body politic, the PBS must be StenoTran 217 1 divorced from the tentacles of government. It should 2 be funded independently of political control. Its 3 staff appointments should be made on the basis of 4 skills and competency rather than the cancerous 5 patronage which infects so much of Canadian society. 6 Its programming should be driven by those Rathian 7 principles I mentioned before. 8 927 It is the duty of the CBC to nurture 9 and develop homegrown talent for, if the CBC doesn't, 10 no commercial organization will. There will be no 11 incentive for it to do so. 12 928 I think the current CBC technicians' 13 dispute and the forthcoming journalists' strike 14 underline the importance of a decently paid and 15 independent PBS. When the CBC isn't around, the 16 private enterprise media goes to the dogs. We have 17 seen it particularly here in Vancouver, as I am sure 18 you know. It is incapable of ever distinguishing its 19 only political motivation from its reportage of current 20 events. They mix them all up. You can't tell what is 21 fact and what is op-ed. It is highly parochial. They 22 don't want to spend money on anything that is outside 23 of a quarter of an hour's drive of the head offices. 24 It is incapable of standing back and giving a broader, 25 deeper analysis of events. It doesn't have the quality StenoTran 218 1 of staff to be able to do that. 2 929 I can give you some examples. I 3 collect these things actually. We had the recent 4 highly biased and invasive coverage of Glen Clark's 5 run-in with the local police, which is all highly 6 suspicious. The only people who didn't join in this 7 melee, as far as I could see, were the CBC, and you 8 might think that I have left leaning sympathies. Well, 9 actually, I don't know whether you call it left 10 leaning, but I am a fully paid up member of the 11 Conservative Party. 12 930 We had something which made my hair 13 stand on end, was it yesterday or the day before, there 14 was the claim on CTV and on our local radio station 15 here, that the European Commission is a huge 16 bureaucracy. This is a gross calumny, repeated, I 17 might add, by Peter Mansbridge last night, for this I 18 am going to find it very difficult to ever forgive him. 19 Such a huge bureaucracy. I have worked -- I know 20 Brussels and Luxembourg very well. There is 25,000 21 people on the payroll. That is the total sum of the 22 European bureaucracy. Twenty-five thousand. It is 23 much smaller than, say, British Columbia's civil 24 service. It is smaller than the U.K. government's 25 Scottish office. So it is not a huge bureaucracy, StenoTran 219 1 although people like to paint it as such. 2 931 CKNW not so long ago, they had a 3 scientist on, I don't know who this scientist was, but 4 he claimed that we all have souls, not those things on 5 the bottom of our feet, but you know these things that 6 are immortal. Do you know this scientist had proved 7 conclusively that our soul weighed three-quarters of an 8 ounce? Yes, it is true, this is a scientist, it must 9 be true it was on the radio. 10 932 And then we get the -- on AM 1040 we 11 get the marketing of quack medicine and what have you 12 all the time. They have some incredible and highly 13 dangerous claims being made for these potions that have 14 no proven clinical effectiveness. For example, they 15 are marketing homeopathic products all the time. 16 Homeopathic products won't do you any harm, I mean 17 there is nothing in there to do you any harm. They 18 don't do any good either, apart from make your pocket 19 lighter. 20 933 But there is no such thing as balance 21 or accountability by regular medical practitioners on 22 these programs. 23 934 And then we have in the night time 24 people like Art Bell. I don't know if you have ever 25 run across this guy, he is -- the nicest thing you can StenoTran 220 1 say about him is he is just off his rocker, but he has 2 a program in the small hours of the morning which has a 3 pretty good following, and he is always going on about 4 these conspiracies, you know governments are conspiring 5 against everybody to cover up all sorts of things. If 6 they can't conspire properly to cover up Monica 7 Lewinsky and things how can they possibly ever hope to 8 cover up alien innovations? It just doesn't make any 9 sense. The sheer incredibility of these people's views 10 is never exposed to any kind of challenge. Yet, we get 11 this every night with no attempt at all of giving any 12 kind of balance or reasoned commentary on it. 13 935 This is why I think the Americans are 14 so loony because they get all this highly one-sided 15 propaganda, which is what it really is, aimed at them 16 all the time and they just take it on faith. 17 936 I could go on for hours about this 18 sort of thing, but I won't. 19 937 What I would like to do is to finish 20 you with one little point, a little anecdote from my 21 history. Some years ago, 20 years ago now, I started 22 working in Luxembourg and -- Luxembourg is a funny 23 little country, in the triangle of Belgium, France and 24 Germany, and it is an undiscovered secret. They are 25 keeping it quiet. They don't want anybody from our way StenoTran 221 1 in case everybody comes there and wants to live. It is 2 a wonderful place. 3 938 Any way, at the time I was starting 4 working there for Euro Stat, the European statistical 5 office, I was also listening to the Rath lectures which 6 that year was being given by Steve Jones on genetics. 7 939 About halfway through them, when I 8 started working there, I tried to pick up the BBC 9 signal, Radio Four, on the long wave. You don't have 10 long wave here for some reason. I have no idea why. 11 There is all this spare wavelength going to waste. I 12 understand that it is supposed to be allocated for 13 ship-to-shore transmissions, but I have never -- I have 14 got several long wave radios and I have never heard 15 anything on it apart from harmonics of AM radio station 16 on the medium wave, what I call medium wave, what you 17 call AM. 18 940 So, it is unused but it is a great 19 facility to have particularly for digital broadcasting. 20 Any way, I will pass over that one. 21 941 The point is I was trying to listen 22 to this and I was getting the signal and the only way I 23 could get it was by going outside the building in which 24 -- the hotel I was living in and listening to it out in 25 the open, that way I could get a clear signal because StenoTran 222 1 it is 350 miles from where I was, about 350 miles from 2 Rugby, so I got on to the BBC technical department and 3 said to them, "Is there any way I can improve my 4 reception?" They said, "Well, not really. It is not 5 really -- the signal is not supposed to go that far. 6 Any way, but if you can get it, fine." I said, "Do you 7 have any ideas how I might improve it?" They said, 8 "Yes, you can improve it by using an induction loop 9 antenna." I asked, "What is an induction loop 10 antenna?" I was told, "We don't make them, we don't 11 know anybody who does apart from this strange character 12 who lives in rural Wales." So they gave me his phone 13 number, and I phoned him up. 14 942 Any way, to cut a long story short, I 15 got one of these things, they look like Hula Hoop, 16 daglo orange or whatever, you know, plastic Hula Hoop 17 with a particular length of antenna in side and coupled 18 up to little transfusers, and that is it. It simply 19 magnifies your radio signal. It works like a dream. 20 It is highly directional so you have to point it in the 21 direction you are getting the signal from and move it 22 around and suddenly, boom, you get a wonderful signal. 23 943 So, I told all my friends about this 24 and they were wanting to buy this thing for listening 25 to specifically Radio Four I might add. So I thought I StenoTran 223 1 will sell them for -- to these guys. So I got into a 2 deal and I was ordering these Hula Hoops, which gave me 3 all sorts of odd looks when I went to collect them from 4 customs, you know, what is this guy doing, try to 5 explain to them but I don't think -- I think they 6 thought I was just a nut. 7 944 Any way, to cut a long story short, 8 in the two years that I was there I must have sold 9 about 250 of them to Brits, to Italians, Spaniards, 10 Danes, you name it. The only people I didn't sell them 11 to were the French, the Belgians and the Germans 12 because they had their own transmitters there. 13 945 Now, the very interesting part about 14 this little anecdote is that of the 250 that I sold I 15 did not sell one for a commercial station. Everybody 16 wanted to listen to the home public broadcasting 17 provider with these things. That is all they wanted. 18 Nobody was interested in commercial radio. Everybody 19 in Luxembourg wanted to hear their home news from 20 abroad. 21 946 That is all I want to say. Thanks. 22 947 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 23 948 MS VOGEL: Our next presenter this 24 evening is Clive Court. 25 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION StenoTran 224 1 949 MR. CLIVE COURT: Good evening. I 2 would like to thank you for this opportunity to make a 3 few comments in support of the licence renewal for CBC 4 radio and television. 5 950 I came to Canada in 1974 with a new 6 masters degree in broadcasting and about a decade of 7 experience in public and commercial television in 8 Britain, Australia, New Zealand and the United States. 9 951 The first thing I began to notice 10 about broadcasting in Canada was, with the exception of 11 CBC radio, management seemed to be working against the 12 development of our own talent. This was not the case 13 in other countries where I had previously worked in 14 television. 15 952 There also appeared to be what I 16 might call a power attitude among TV network management 17 which was disrespectful toward Canadian talent unless 18 they happened to be journalists; and of course the 19 journalists had their own power system, all their 20 associates in the print media. 21 953 The prevailing attitude at that time 22 appeared to be unless you were a journalist we have 23 really got no time for you on our networks. So it is 24 hardly surprising that Canada has had a continuing 25 talent drain to the United States and Britain. StenoTran 225 1 954 Even today, after 15 years of 2 Telefilm funding, it is difficult for the average 3 Canadian to name more than a couple of our entertainers 4 who have become major stars by appearing on Canadian 5 television. It took Steve Smith and the "Royal 6 Canadian Air Farce" a long, long time, and I think we 7 missed Jim Carey altogether. 8 955 Yes, you made me stretch to come up 9 with more than a few names who are not journalists, 10 news readers, recording artists or program hosts. 11 956 I believe that CBC radio has done an 12 excellent job in nurturing Canadian talent over the 13 past two decades, writers, singers, musicians, actors 14 and comedians, and they need more funding to continue 15 this nurturing role. 16 957 CBC television is a different kettle 17 of fish. For years, it was managed by people with too 18 little academic, entertainment, management or 19 international broadcasting experience. Too many 20 journalists cluttered the management structure, pouring 21 more and more money into what the late Jack Crane once 22 called the black hole of news and current affairs. 23 958 No one really seemed to understand 24 what public broadcasting was about. At that time, they 25 seemed to believe that news, current affairs, StenoTran 226 1 information programming and documentaries were the most 2 important part of public broadcasting, and we had the 3 current affairs approach to everything, including drama 4 and children's programming. Under Peter Herndorf (ph), 5 we even had journalists hosting variety shows and 6 writing sit-coms. 7 959 (Inaudible) eventually put a stop to 8 that and began to hire some real entertainment talent. 9 No wonder the current affairs staff are campaigning to 10 get Herndorf back as president. The word 11 "entertainment" is not exactly in their vocabulary. 12 960 There used to be this feeling that 13 the CBC's mandate was a journalistic one, and they felt 14 it was comprised by promoting unity. So they 15 campaigned to get that dropped from the new 16 Broadcasting Act. I would argue that the CBC's mandate 17 is a public relations one, to build understanding 18 between the different regions of Canada and, more 19 importantly, to nurture the country's talent. 20 961 Until CBC television moved to its 21 all-Canadian schedule, the news and current affairs 22 people used to use American shows to deliver a high 23 rating to the beginning of their information programs. 24 This is why in Vancouver you still see the Simpsons 25 being used as a lead in to their broadcast one StenoTran 227 1 newscast. Unfortunately, it makes me and many others in 2 B.C. switch to BCTV's news. The CBC probably don't 3 really understand the principles of audience 4 reinforcement. 5 962 Now that most of the U.S. shows have 6 been replaced by Canadian comedy and drama, this means 7 there is more room for developing and promoting 8 Canadian talent, and the CBC has discovered a growing 9 audience for Canadian comedy, which now brings them 10 higher ratings than drama, news, current affairs and, 11 yes, even hockey. At least we are now developing 12 entertainers at the CBC. 13 963 However, I have noticed that this 14 entertainment development and promotion at the CBC, and 15 in Canada generally, is biased against visual 16 performers who are not actors or comedians. For 17 example, in the past decade, probably inspired by Doug 18 Henning in the '70s, three Canadian magicians have won 19 world championships: Carl Clouthier, Greg Frewin, and 20 Julie Anna Chan, and they appear on TV specials around 21 the world. 22 964 Internationally, Canada has become 23 famous for the high performance quality of its circus 24 artists, and of course I am talking about the Cirque du 25 Soleil. StenoTran 228 1 965 In late November on an NBC TV 2 special, "The World's Greatest Magic", with three 3 Canadian magicians, achieved a slightly higher rating 4 than the CBC's imported dance special, Michael Flatley, 5 "Feet of Flames", for which they claimed an audience of 6 1.5 million. 7 966 In recent years, dance specials like 8 River Dance, have been securing very high ratings for 9 CBC television, and it is obvious that Canadian 10 audiences enjoy TV specials with strong dynamic visual 11 performances like comedy, dancing, skating and magic. 12 967 While Doug Henning did not make that 13 much impact on Canadian TV production because most of 14 his specials came from NBC Television, he was widely 15 respected in the United States for bringing magic back 16 to Broadway and to network television in the '70s. 17 Henning retired about a decade ago, but rumours 18 indicate he was recently offered a $30 million contract 19 to come out of retirement, and that would be Las Vegas, 20 I presume, certainly not the CBC. 21 968 I believe that CBC radio and 22 television must continue the mandate to nurture 23 Canadian talent, especially non-musical visual 24 performers. So why privatize the CBC? Do you really 25 know anyone in the private sector who wants to spend StenoTran 229 1 any money producing prime time quality programs with 2 Canadian entertainers. To be able to produce 3 first-class Canadian TV specials which will attract 4 large audiences in Canada and big sales around the 5 world requires expert marketing skills, which are 6 generally lacking in Canada's broadcasting sector. Mr. 7 Asper's bid for a fifth channel licence in Britain must 8 have really been quite hilarious because he could not 9 demonstrate any previous commitment to quality TV 10 production in Canada. He could have saved a lot of 11 time and money with a little historical research, for 12 most of the Canadians, who moved to Britain in the late 13 '50s, can produce excellent drama and variety for 14 television, but that was before the rot set in here, 15 before the Americans brainwashed us into believing that 16 we should concentrate on news, current affairs and arts 17 programming and leave the entertainment to them -- what 18 a deal! 19 969 Looking back at the last winter 20 Olympics, Canadians won more medals than the United 21 States, but most of our medal winners were relatively 22 unknown to Canadian viewers. The same is true of our 23 world-class entertainers. 24 970 Why don't we know who our world-class 25 athletes are? It is because our broadcasting industry StenoTran 230 1 is biased towards American professional sports and 2 these people are more concerned with entertainment 3 values, filling seats in arenas and television ratings, 4 not in winning international championships for Canada. 5 971 Likewise, Canadian broadcasting is 6 more geared to promoting movies and CD sales than in 7 promoting visual performers who do not make their 8 living from CD sales or movies. So I would ask the 9 Commission to encourage and support the CBC's mandate 10 to nurture Canada's visual entertainers and help export 11 that talent around the world. I would also ask that 12 both CBC radio and television be encouraged to place 13 more emphasis on the development of a greater variety 14 of Canada's non-musical visual performers. 15 972 To accomplish this goal, I would 16 recommend that the CBC be granted a sports channel, a 17 Sportsworld, if you will, to carry all that 18 professional sports coverage which earns a major 19 portion of their annual advertising revenue. 20 973 I would also like to recommend that 21 the CBC transfer most of their TV current affairs and 22 information programming from their main network to 23 "Newsworld". Moving all current affairs and 24 information programming to "Newsworld", and all 25 professional sports coverage to Sportsworld, would free StenoTran 231 1 up more time on the CBC's main network for the 2 development of more Canadian drama, comedy, arts, music 3 and variety programming. 4 974 Should CBC television be unwilling to 5 make a commitment to develop more programming featuring 6 Canada's visual entertainers, I would recommend that 7 the Commission seriously consider granting a variety 8 entertainment channel to the Cirque du Soleil so they 9 can develop the programs for sale around the world. 10 975 Thank you very much. 11 --- Applause / Applaudissements 12 976 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 13 Court. 14 977 MS VOGEL: Our next presenter this 15 evening is Linda Stedfield. 16 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 17 978 MS LINDA STEDFIELD: Good evening. 18 My name is Linda Stedfield and I come as a private 19 citizen, although I have many interests. But I am 20 coming to speak as myself, but I believe that my words 21 are shared by thousands of Canadians all across this 22 country. 23 979 I came to Canada in the early 1980s 24 from the United States. I would say, like a majority 25 of Americans, I knew very little about Canada, StenoTran 232 1 virtually nothing. If there is any one thing that I 2 can point to that has made me feel like a part of this 3 country and has just educated me in so many different 4 ways about this country, I would say it is CBC. 5 980 Sometimes I liken my listening to CBC 6 throughout the years consistently as sort of a college 7 education to me. But a college education that is 8 really maybe in the more renaissance sort of sense, 9 very well rounded, consisting of information that can 10 ran the gamut from A to Z, it could be about anything. 11 981 I believe that every nation on this 12 earth needs a non-commercial broadcaster and a 13 non-commercial voice. I grew up in what we could call 14 one of the hotbeds of commercialism, southern 15 California. Tongue in cheek, somehow I survived that 16 experience, but it is not because I was given what I 17 would consider worthwhile culture information to grow 18 up on. Au contraire, I think that commercial interests 19 will just never have at heart some of the things that 20 have been talked about already here today, such as 21 promoting talent, giving people who haven't already 22 made it a chance. Everybody needs that chance. 23 982 I am sure it has been said all day 24 long today how all the Canadian writers, all the 25 different peoples that have been given a voice through StenoTran 233 1 CBC, that would not happen on commercial channels. It 2 just wouldn't because it doesn't sell. 3 983 Once again, I think it is totally 4 vital that Canada -- the Canadian government I think 5 actually is not doing its job in funding the CBC 6 properly. I think that is a really important thing for 7 this government. I think it has got to be up to the 8 CRTC or individual citizens to make the government 9 listen that CBC must be funded. They have got a job to 10 do. I think the people who work on CBC radio and 11 television represent some of the best of what we have 12 to offer in Canada. It is not easy to make intelligent 13 programming either for radio or television, it is not 14 easy at all. It takes a lot. I think those people 15 deserve to have adequate funding to do that job. 16 984 I am sure it has been said all day 17 long, too, CBC ties this country together. It really 18 does. Where else can you turn it on and listen to 19 someone speaking to you from the Northwest Territories 20 and in two minutes somebody else is speaking from 21 Halifax, and then in a few more minutes it is someone 22 out on the West Coast of Vancouver Island? Where else 23 can we get this sort of information? 24 985 I primarily have listened a lot to 25 radio. I don't watch a whole lot of television. But, StenoTran 234 1 again, I think Canadian content has got to be at the 2 fore of the television and the radio. 3 986 I am not sure what else to say other 4 than I just think it is totally vital. I know my life 5 would be totally different if I hadn't had CBC to 6 listen to, experience, watch, the 17 years I have lived 7 in Canada. My life would be so much poorer, I can 8 hardly put it into words. It is the one thing that has 9 really grounded me here in this country. 10 987 I don't think the supposed "new world 11 order" the suppose the -- you know, the trade 12 agreements we have gone into with the United States -- 13 all of that, that sort of thing, it is not a given. If 14 we have a government that won't stand up and won't 15 stand up for Canada, and won't stand up against some of 16 those kind of interests, then citizens better vote them 17 out or do something about it because this new world 18 order supposedly dictation by, you know, a certain few 19 is not a given, it is a construct that is being 20 imposed. I think Canadians do have an identity. You 21 hear it bandied about by people born in Canada, which I 22 was not, but people born in Canada saying, "Canadians 23 don't have an identity." I don't agree with that at 24 all. It is a large identity. Just like in the United 25 States, there is no one identity. When you get a StenoTran 235 1 nation that is filled with people that have been born, 2 or their grandparents have been born from all over this 3 world, the identity is going to be very large. You 4 can't summarize it in one sentence. Of course 5 Canadians have an identity, and an identity worth 6 keeping, an identity worth keeping separate from the 7 United States also. 8 988 I am not an American basher, but the 9 United States has its place, as does Canada. 10 989 So, I am going to thank you very much 11 for listening, and I think we must save, support and 12 adequately fund the CBC. It is a total priority. 13 Thank you. 14 --- Applause / Applaudissements 15 990 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 16 Stedfield. 17 991 MS VOGEL: Our next presenter is 18 Maria Hackett. 19 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 20 992 MS MARIA HACKETT: Thank you very 21 much. For the past 20 years, I have been a regular CBC 22 radio listener. The CBC AM service has seen me through 23 two cross country moves and nearly 16 years as a 24 stay-at-home mother of two. 25 993 The broad exposure to current affairs StenoTran 236 1 and arts provided by the AM service is not duplicated 2 by any other broadcaster available in my community. 3 This might not be remarkable when you take into account 4 that I live in a town of 15,000 people with one radio 5 station and a single independent cable station, but it 6 was equally true when I lived in metropolitan Toronto 7 or Vancouver. 8 994 I look to the CBC AM for my 9 connection with the world, through programs such as 10 "Morningside" and "This Morning", "As It Happens", and 11 "Ideas", I have kept up to date with events not only in 12 my own community but across the country and out into 13 the rest of the world. 14 995 Equally important is the knowledge 15 that many of my friends and relations are hearing the 16 same programs in their homes scattered across the 17 country. We share a common thread that no private 18 radio network offers. 19 996 As a national broadcaster, CBC tends 20 to be very Ontario-centric, particularly lately. This 21 was irritating even when I lived there, but it is most 22 certainly galling to those of us who live outside of 23 the golden horseshoe. While this Ontario bias runs the 24 gamut of CBC services, it is somewhat less prevalent on 25 the AM radio network. StenoTran 237 1 997 I would like to see the CBC place a 2 stronger emphasis on local and regional programming as 3 it enters the new millennium. The funding reductions 4 imposed by the federal government have hamstrung our 5 national public broadcaster to an extent that has 6 become glaringly apparent in the last couple of years. 7 The declining quality of our new production, as well as 8 the increase in repeat broadcasts, are becoming much 9 more obvious to the regular listener. 10 998 The regional programming provided by 11 CBC radio has suffered the most through the last few 12 years. Regional shows have little travel budget to 13 provide remote broadcasts when it would be appropriate 14 and cutbacks in local sports departments and local 15 journalists mean local issues are often not discussed, 16 or the expert consulted is someone from Toronto or the 17 U.S. 18 999 While the CBC most definitely needs 19 to be fiscally responsible, adequate funding is 20 necessary, and my family, for one, is prepared to pay 21 more to support the service we want to see. I consider 22 the CBC to be another educational tool. My children, 23 now 12 and 15, have a strong understanding of Canadian 24 politics, geography, issues and views as a result of 25 being steeped in the CBC for all of their lives. StenoTran 238 1 1000 They both choose to watch CBC 2 television comedy on a regular basis and each has their 3 favourite CBC radio program. 4 1001 The CBC should have the opportunity 5 to present radio and television that is independent of 6 advertiser and government control and free to provide a 7 balance of views and opinions. It gives me great joy 8 to see the apparent freedom enjoyed by programs such as 9 "This Hour Has 22 Minutes" and the "Royal Canadian Air 10 Farce". 11 1002 The CBC radio also enjoys the freedom 12 to present a broad variety of information and 13 entertainment which might not be commercial in nature 14 and might not fit into a single format as preferred by 15 private broadcasters who seem to feel that all 16 listeners have a single point of view and a single 17 musical interest. That is what makes the CBC special 18 to its listeners. We want to hear a little of 19 everything. If we hear a broad diversity of 20 viewpoints, musical styles and written work, we are 21 able to understand and embrace that broad diversity. 22 1003 Thank you very much. 23 --- Applause / Applaudissements 24 1004 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 25 Hackett. StenoTran 239 1 1005 MS VOGEL: I would invite Nigel Peck 2 to present next, please. 3 1006 THE CHAIRPERSON: I wonder if we 4 might ask any of the other presenters who are in the 5 audience to come to the table and sit at a mike to be 6 ready. 7 1007 MS VOGEL: Mr. Peers, are you at a 8 table? Could you come to a mike, please? 9 1008 Is Noni Mate in the room? 10 1009 Thank you. 11 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 12 1010 MR. NIGEL PECK: My name is Nigel 13 Peck and I would like to make a couple of comments 14 about the radio which is what I know the best. I don't 15 know TV that much. 16 1011 I guess the things that I look for 17 the CBC and what gives value to me is the connection 18 that it allows between Canadians in a huge country that 19 otherwise you would have no sense of how people are 20 living in other parts of the country. Having the 21 programming I get a taste of Newfoundland or southern 22 Ontario, or anywhere else in the country, is one of the 23 main things that makes me feel a Canadian, makes me 24 want to be a part of this country. 25 1012 It is also really important for me to StenoTran 240 1 get the news and the current events, whether it is on a 2 regional or a national or an international scale. I 3 work a lot. I don't have a lot of free time and being 4 able to listen to the radio allows me to at least have 5 a starting point where I can have informed decisions 6 about what is important in our lives. I think without 7 CBC radio I would be a lot poorer, and I think the 8 population generally would be a lot poorer. 9 1013 I guess in the last three years, that 10 is something that I have seen suffer with the cutbacks. 11 There is not the amount of regional content that there 12 should be. There is a lot more stuff coming out of 13 Toronto so you just get the centre-of-the-universe 14 viewpoint. There isn't the depth of reporting where 15 you get a feeling that they know what the issues behind 16 the stories that are happening, so you get context, and 17 I think having that context is incredibly important 18 because if you don't know what is going on behind, you 19 are just getting superficial news and you don't have 20 the ability to make decisions or to know what is going 21 on. 22 1014 I think it comes down to funding in a 23 lot of cases. The CBC has got to have the funding to 24 be able to put the resources into the reporting and the 25 coverage, local, international and what not. StenoTran 241 1 1015 I guess this isn't a programming 2 issue, but in the board of directors and the president, 3 the fact that they should be championing the CBC more 4 and standing up for it, I don't get the impression that 5 they are. Maybe that is -- I don't see what is going 6 on. But I don't get the feeling that they are fighting 7 for the CBC the way a lot of the people in different 8 parts of the country are. 9 1016 I guess the one other thing I would 10 like to say for the new millennium is that the 11 individuality -- I am not sure what the right word is 12 -- but the fact that the CBC has got to continue to be 13 independent. If I don't have the sense that the 14 reporters and the coverage is fair and is impartial and 15 that they have the freedom to follow stories, then at 16 that point it doesn't have any value. I am not sure if 17 it was accurate, there was a report in the Globe and 18 Mail stating that there was a move to try and put all 19 of the current events and news under the -- under one 20 area, rather than having four separate divisions 21 between English and French news and radio. I just 22 think it is so important to keep it separate so that 23 there is no chance at all that you are having control 24 from political forces, whether it is through the board 25 of directors, through a president appointed by the StenoTran 242 1 Prime Minister, or other means. 2 1017 I think the CBC is incredibly 3 valuable to Canada. I think it helps Canada remain 4 distinct from the United States. I think it supports 5 all the other values that we cherish. If it is not 6 supported, then I think we will see all those other 7 things starting to slip away and you will see it little 8 by little so you don't notice it until you realize it 9 is gone. 10 1018 Thank you. 11 --- Applause / Applaudissements 12 1019 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 13 Peck. 14 1020 MS VOGEL: Next we have Digby Peers. 15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 16 1021 MR. DIGBY PEERS: I just got over a 17 bout of a number of things and my voice is not quite 18 the way it might be. 19 1022 My name is Digby Peers. I am 20 Canadian. I have lived 22 years in the Province of 21 Quebec; 23 years in the Province of Ontario; and 23 22 years in British Columbia, including when I was very 23 young; and two years in other countries in the world, 24 including Africa, South America, England, Australia. 25 1023 Sheila Copps is quoted as saying that StenoTran 243 1 one of the benefits of having a public broadcaster like 2 the CBC is that it can cater to a higher ethic, that it 3 need not be driven by the lowest common denominator in 4 order to receive the highest rate of financial return, 5 which is what commercial television ratings are all 6 about. 7 1024 Professor Catherine McKercher of 8 Ottawa's Carleton University Department of Journalism 9 was quoted in the Wednesday, February 24th edition of 10 the National Post as saying that those who fund the CBC 11 are no longer exactly sure of what it is they want by 12 the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. 13 1025 She goes on to say that there is some 14 drift about what the CBC should be doing. 15 1026 Lawrence Martin, a writer and 16 journalist, stated in the March 4th edition of the 17 Vancouver Sun that it is time for the CBC and the 18 federal Liberals to bury the hatchet, implying that the 19 vanities and egos of both should be held immediately 20 for the sake of all Canadians. 21 1027 Just one more quote. BCTV's Chief 22 Executive Officer Art Reitmeir himself stated in a 23 Wednesday February 24th edition of the National Post 24 that the CBC is not alone in the need to rethink its 25 position. The whole of the North American broadcast StenoTran 244 1 industry is being buffeted by intense change. 2 1028 There is obviously a lot of work to 3 be done to repair the damage, restore the CBC to a 4 position of respect by the mandarins of the civil 5 service in Ottawa, the governing Liberals and those 6 hundreds of thousands of us ordinary Canadians who 7 believe, as Daryl Duke stated in the March 13th edition 8 of the Vancouver Sun, that with all its warts, the CBC 9 is one of the finest public broadcasters in the world 10 and yet it is in a critical state. It is in need of 11 renewed self-confidence of the '50s, '60s, and '70s. 12 It is in need, perhaps, of a restructuring from top to 13 bottom and in need of the resources to acquire and 14 maintain facilities, producers and talent on a regional 15 basis to produce programs that will inform Canadians in 16 this vast country about each other. 17 1029 My name is Digby Peers, again, and, 18 yes, I was a staff radio producer from 1959 to 1983 in 19 features in humanities and I have been an avid observer 20 of the CBC for more than 45 years and of the radio and 21 television stations public and commercial. 22 1030 Yes, I was seconded to the BBC to 23 work for a year in London, England in 1968 to produce a 24 series of dramas entitled, "World History", and I have 25 organized co-productions on national public radio. In StenoTran 245 1 the United States, perhaps the most noteworthy was the 2 great opera Louis Riel by the recently deceased Harry 3 Summers, and I have produced series for the Australian 4 Broadcasting Corporation. 5 1031 That is my little preface to what I 6 want -- the points I want to make about the CBC and how 7 I think it could be improved. I could go on for some 8 time on what might be done. I am only going to make 9 three points and then I am going to finish. It is 10 really quite simple. 11 1032 The first one is this, which was 12 alluded to by the previous speaker, if the top managers 13 at the CBC are not willing or do not have the ability 14 to stand up and fight for public broadcasting 15 effectively, they should resign. 16 1033 Two, to keep the CBC from becoming 17 irrelevant, we need strong production centres in the 18 regions to inform Canadians about each other in this so 19 vast and rapidly changing country; and, yes, let's hear 20 some new voices at the CBC. 21 1034 Finally, without a much improved 22 process of choosing a president of the CBC, whose 23 dedication, whose leadership and whose experience 24 permeates and inspires CBC staff at every level across 25 the country, the CBC will struggle unfairly to do its StenoTran 246 1 job. 2 1035 Thank you. 3 --- Applause / Applaudissements 4 1036 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 5 Peers. 6 1037 MS VOGEL: The next presenter is Olga 7 Kempo. 8 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 9 1038 MS OLGA KEMPO: First of all, I 10 appreciate this opportunity to speak to you about the 11 CBC. 12 1039 Since the strike has been on, it has 13 brought home to me how precious the CBC is to me. It 14 is my link to my community, my country and via our 15 foreign correspondents to the world. 16 1040 I have just jotted down some of my 17 views on programming and operations that I would like 18 to share with you tonight. 19 1041 I would like a non-commercial 20 broadcasting system in both radio and television 21 maintained in the case of radio and re-established in 22 the case of television. Somehow I would like to arrest 23 or stop the cancer of corporate capitalism on my public 24 airwaves. 25 1042 What is special to me about the CBC StenoTran 247 1 is the fact that it is non-commercial, the fact that 2 it, hopefully, is independent from political 3 interference and the arm's length I want maintained 4 especially since I hear that, perhaps, the VPs are 5 going to be moved to Ottawa. I would suggest that they 6 come to Vancouver. I would like it independent from 7 any commercial bias. 8 1043 Some of the changes I would like to 9 see are, perhaps, "Hockey Night in Canada" could be 10 moved to an independent channel, like you have 11 "Newsworld", a specialty channel. Then we could have 12 more culture, more artistic literary events. We could 13 have more debates and we could have the kind of forum 14 that we should be having like we had about Quebec, as 15 we should be having about the Nisga'a agreements, the 16 Indian agreements, the aboriginal, those are the kinds 17 of things I would like to see on my public television 18 and hear more of on my public radio. 19 1044 I would like to see no further 20 dumbing down of the CBC. I think that the audience 21 will come to CBC if we maintain our standards. I do 22 not want it to become like any of the commercial 23 stations either television or radio that are out there. 24 1045 I would like to see eliminated all 25 the half-hour nude news interruptions on radio. I StenoTran 248 1 think a news broadcast in the morning and a news 2 broadcast at night is quite sufficient to tell me what 3 is going on in the world. I would like the repeats ad 4 nauseam stopped, and the fact that we hear on the 5 weekends what we have already heard on the week days on 6 the radio. 7 1046 I would like to eliminate the 8 mindless American sit-coms that we have on television. 9 If we are to import, and I suggest we should import, 10 let us import from around the world. There is a 11 variety out there rather than just from across the 12 border. 13 1047 Regional programming is very 14 essential to me. I like to know what is happening in 15 my community but I also like the cross fertilization of 16 my regional programming and other regional programming 17 so I know what is happening across the country. 18 1048 I think there is too much feed from 19 American sources. I want a Canadian vision of the 20 world. I want more Canadian foreign correspondents and 21 not less stationed in more countries. 22 1049 It is important for me to have both 23 French and English. French programming allows me to go 24 into the Francophonie; and the English programming 25 gives me the rest of the world. They are different StenoTran 249 1 perspectives and they give me something that is really 2 complete. If I only had one I would only be seeing the 3 world with one eye. 4 1050 As far as operations, I think a new 5 president should be appointed immediately. It is not 6 healthy to have a board of directors all appointed, I 7 understand, by Mr. Chrétien, running my CBC. As far as 8 funding, and this is my final point, I think that in a 9 country such as Canada, we can find the money. This is 10 not a facetious suggestion. We can begin by 11 eliminating the Senate. I would prefer to have 102 12 more journalists than 102 senators. 13 1051 I believe the funds from the Canadian 14 Television Fund should be increased instead of 15 decreased as it has been every year. 16 1052 CBC must continue to be an 17 independent voice and an independent voice against or 18 counter to the Thompson, Conrad Black monopolies. 19 1053 And that is it. I think I made it in 20 10 minutes. 21 --- Applause / Applaudissements 22 1054 THE CHAIRPERSON: You did. Thank 23 you, Dr. Kempo. 24 1055 MS VOGEL: Our next presenter is Noni 25 Mate. StenoTran 250 1 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 2 1056 MS NONI MATE: In making this short 3 presentation, want to respond to the questions that you 4 set out wearing two hats, first just as an individual 5 Canadian who has grown up with the CBC and feels 6 strongly about its importance to this country; and, 7 secondly, as a director of communications for a new 8 media development centre at Simon Fraser University; 9 and, in that part of my life, I partnered with the CBC 10 on several new media projects for Canadian students. 11 So I will talk about that after. 12 1057 The first question you sent out was a 13 question of does the CBC -- how well the CBC fulfils 14 its role as a national public broadcaster? When I was 15 thinking about this question, I simply looked back at 16 my life and, very simply and not to be maudlin about 17 it, for me the CBC is synonymous with being Canadian. 18 Growing up here -- I know that people have already 19 echoed -- it has helped to shape my identity. The CBC 20 has helped me understand this huge country; take an 21 interest in it and look at what makes us different from 22 our neighbours to the south. 23 1058 My cultural icons have all been 24 introduced to me through the CBC, both in radio and 25 television. I grew up watching "This Hour Has Seven StenoTran 251 1 Days" and felt proud that it was controversial. I 2 watch "The National" in the evening, Peter Gzowski, 3 Barbara Frum, Allan Maitland were and still are 4 household words to me and my friends and family. 5 1059 Even if I only heard, say, 10 minutes 6 of "Morningside" on the way to work, I felt connected 7 to the country. Those interviews with Trudeau, 8 Margaret Laurence, Alice Munro, Karen Kain, to name but 9 a few, made me proud to be Canadian. 10 1060 And while I have witnessed with 11 dismay the cuts to programming and the cancellation of 12 shows over the years, the role of the CBC as Canada's 13 national voice has still not changed for me. I listen 14 now to Avril Benoit and Michael Enright. I look 15 forward to DNTO on Saturdays, sometimes "Cross Country 16 Checkup". 17 1061 I realize I am concentrating more on 18 radio than on TV, and it is partly because I am not a 19 TV viewer in general. But I have never missed "This 20 Hour Has 22 Minutes" and I was sorry when the 21 "Newsroom" of about a year ago was cancelled. 22 1062 Again, I am talking largely about 23 national shows, but I don't want to presume that the 24 CBC isn't equally important to me in terms of serving 25 the public on a regional level, in terms of radio, you StenoTran 252 1 know, Rick Clough, Mark Forsythe, Catherine Gretsinger, 2 they help me form my day every day. 3 1063 I tune into some of the excellent 4 documentaries produced by our regional TV station here. 5 I think, as other people have said, that we need to 6 have funding to the regional CBC just as much as we do 7 to "The National". It is really the mix that makes it 8 important. 9 1064 Now, I am speaking as a woman in my 10 late '40s which possibly begs the question: Does CBC 11 have any relevance to the younger generation? I say 12 yes and can only give you a personal example. My 13 daughter is in her mid-'20s, a law student, and so I 14 started talking to her about this. She says she is a 15 Canadian nationalist and a CBC fan but what is 16 interesting to me is that her identity was largely 17 formed as a result of spending four years studying in 18 the United States. She said that she hadn't thought 19 much about being Canadian or about the CBC's role as a 20 voice for Canada but while she was in an American 21 university, she felt starved for Canadian content. She 22 then realized that for her that content was provided by 23 the CBC. There is nothing like spending time in the 24 states to start thinking about your differences. 25 1065 She came home to Vancouver with a StenoTran 253 1 new-found appreciation for the important role the CBC 2 has played and continues to play in providing quality 3 programming and connecting Canadians to each other. 4 1066 I now want to take a few minutes just 5 to talk about my experiences in a working relationship 6 with the CBC as a partner in some community-based 7 education programs. 8 1067 Three years ago, Excite, which is a 9 new media lab where I work, was contracted to produce a 10 multimedia CD-ROM on the Prime Ministers of Canada. 11 Naturally, the first place we turned to for content and 12 for partnership was the CBC. Their support and 13 responsiveness to the project on every level was truly 14 impressive. As a public broadcaster, they said it was 15 part of their mandate to re-purpose their archival 16 material for Canadian students. They provided us with 17 researchers to help us access and incorporate CBC's 18 incredible archives, both in radio and in television 19 into the CD-ROM. 20 1068 For me, listening to Diefenbaker's 21 speeches, watching Trudeau doing his famous pirouette, 22 when I was sitting in the offices there, really brought 23 home the role of the CBC as the chroniclers of our 24 history. 25 1069 On a regional level, the famous, or StenoTran 254 1 maybe infamous team of "Double Exposure", spent a 2 delightful morning with us in the studio up at SFU 3 providing original satire and impersonations of all of 4 our Prime Ministers. 5 1070 I must say that for me this project 6 was a thrill of a life time for I had the opportunity 7 to meet all of my icons, working with Knowlton Nash and 8 Mary Lou Finlay on narration for the CD, discussing 9 Canada's social history with Patrick Watson, filming 10 Laurier LaPierre, reading a speech by his mentor Sir 11 Wilfrid Laurier and taping Peter Gzowski reminiscing 12 about his interview experiences with many of our former 13 Prime Ministers. It was fabulous. 14 1071 Since October, Excite has been 15 involved in an equally exciting project in partnership 16 with the CBC TV here in B.C. This new project is an 17 Internet media literacy project called New Zone. New 18 Zone is a gateway to news and publishing on the Web for 19 Canadian students. It is an innovative Web site with a 20 new angle on journalism in the classroom, promoting 21 critical analysis of current news stories and analysis 22 of broadcast news in general. 23 1072 Through a partnership with the CBC, 24 students can go to the Web site. They can view 25 up-to-date news headlines, access actual broadcast news StenoTran 255 1 scripts, along with associated video and audio clips. 2 They can search through CBC news archives and link to 3 other sources on the Internet. 4 1073 Using the daily news content provided 5 by the CBC, students can follow developing news 6 stories. They can do their own parallel research, 7 discuss their work in online forums, and post their own 8 stories and multimedia presentations on the Web site. 9 1074 Through this collaboration with the 10 CBC, New Zone provides a space for youth to publish 11 their articles and take ownership of news content. 12 1075 I want just to take a moment to give 13 you some idea of the nature of this partnership and 14 really what it says about the CBC here in Vancouver. 15 1076 In actuality, it was Rae Hall, the 16 regional director of CBC TV who first made contact with 17 excite. She was looking for some new directions and 18 opportunities for connections and came to see our 19 multimedia centre and to talk about what we were up to. 20 A real synergy developed from that meeting and Rae took 21 that desire to work together in a new media project 22 that serves the community and pushed it forward into 23 the current collaborative partnership. 24 1077 The support and excitement doesn't 25 just come from the director. Producers and journalists StenoTran 256 1 from broadcast one have been enthusiastic and committed 2 to putting time into this project, as well as providing 3 us with technical support, access to the news database, 4 both for local stories and national stories. They have 5 helped us refine our concept and have written feature 6 stories for the Web site outlining behind-the-scenes 7 information of what a newsroom is really like. 8 1078 The journalists are excited about 9 sharing their knowledge and expertise with students, 10 with the community. They are willing to go into our 11 participating schools and to contact other regional 12 offices for similar support. 13 1079 Last week, New Zone's project manager 14 introduced this Web site to participating schools right 15 across the country. The response was incredible. The 16 teachers and the students loved the idea and the Web 17 site and already students are contributing articles. 18 1080 But what is important to note is that 19 the teachers said that their willingness to participate 20 in the project was due in part to the presence of the 21 national broadcaster as a partner. Most of the 22 teachers said right up front that if we as a multimedia 23 group had partnered with a private broadcaster, they 24 would not have participated. They are interested in 25 the mandate that the public broadcaster brings to it. StenoTran 257 1 They are interested in the mix between local and 2 national stories, which is why they like the 3 combination of news that is coming on to the site. I 4 look forward to this project continuing. 5 1081 In closing, I just want to say that 6 the CBC was first formed to become the voice of 7 Canadians, partly in response to our powerful 8 neighbours to the south. I think that now more than 9 ever in this multi-channel universe, in the era of free 10 trade, in the privatization of almost every aspect of 11 our culture, we desperately need a public broadcaster, 12 one that is well-funded both regionally and nationally. 13 --- Applause / Applaudissements 14 1082 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mate. 15 1083 MS VOGEL: Our next presenter is Mr. 16 Michael O'Shea. 17 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 18 1084 MR. MICHAEL O'SHEA: Thank you. I 19 would like to start out by saying thank you for 20 allowing me, a citizen, to speak to you on the question 21 of the CBC. I say "citizen" because I think it is 22 important to acknowledge that, indeed, I am here as a 23 citizen, not as a spokesperson for a special interest 24 group, a funded think-tank, a lobby group or political 25 party. I am here to tell you what I think and I StenoTran 258 1 appreciate the opportunity. 2 1085 This is not easy for me in that it is 3 not my normal practice to make submissions to this type 4 of body, or any other type of body for that matter. 5 However, I feel so strongly about this matter that when 6 offered the chance to come here, I couldn't pass it up. 7 1086 I have been a devoted listener of CBC 8 radio AM -- Radio One, if you prefer -- for about 15 9 years and a not so devoted watcher of CBC TV. 10 1087 The central point I would like to 11 make here is I believe what the CBC does for me is to 12 make me a more effective and informed citizen than I 13 would be otherwise. Now, I am sure you have heard over 14 and over again how shows like "Cross Country Checkup", 15 and "This Morning"'s regional reports and political 16 forums, et cetera, regional shows like "Almanac" here 17 in Vancouver, binds us together as Canadians, and I 18 would be quick to add my voice to that chorus. Let me 19 go a step further and tell you one of my personal 20 experiences. 21 1088 I would say that a turning point in 22 my journey as a citizen was the 1995 Massey lectures 23 which are presented on the "Ideas" program on CBC Radio 24 One. That particular lecture featured John Ralston 25 Saul. I am not making a pitch for him or his ideas. StenoTran 259 1 You may or may not like his ideas. You may in fact not 2 even know who he is. But the point for me is that this 3 series of talks got me thinking about my role as a 4 citizen in a way I never had before, and this I think 5 is what a public broadcaster is there for, to provide a 6 space for the free flow of ideas unencumbered by a 7 commercial imperative. I don't know where else on the 8 dial a show like that would have been presented. 9 1089 Let me for a minute elaborate on what 10 I mean by a commercial imperative. First off, a 11 commercial enterprise has to make a profit by selling 12 advertising. In order to do this, you have to be 13 primarily concerned with ratings. This means that your 14 programming has to appeal to a large audience and 15 leaves little room for that which is out of the 16 mainstream. The other aspect of a commercial 17 broadcasting is that it is owned by commercial 18 interests and these are the interests that ultimately 19 will be served. 20 1090 This is not in and of itself a bad 21 thing, just limiting of what it can be expected to do. 22 The most effective thing that private broadcasters do 23 is to provide popular entertainment, and that is fine. 24 1091 I feel that the CBC, particularly the 25 radio side, not only benefits those of us who make use StenoTran 260 1 of it, but also as a benefit to those who don't use it. 2 What do I mean by that? 3 1092 Well, as I said before, I think that 4 listening to CBC and using it as forum for expression 5 makes me a more effective, informed and engaged 6 citizen, which I then take out into my own sphere of 7 influence and my own political involvement there by 8 enriching the level of debate in my own social network. 9 This is not to say that my ideas are any better than 10 the next person's. However, if I am engaged as a 11 participant in civil society, then chances are I will 12 engage others and together we will enrich the political 13 debate. 14 1093 This is also not to say that the only 15 place that one can become a better citizen is by using 16 the CBC; but it is certainly one, and an important one. 17 1094 Now, you might argue that there is a 18 lot of phone-in talk shows on commercial radio. Well, 19 when I look around at the commercial talk radio 20 landscape, I do not see reasoned, thoughtful public 21 debate. What I see is this one Vancouver talk radio 22 station advertises "talk with attitude" where callers 23 are not much more than fodder for the host to hang up 24 on. Again, what they are there for is ratings and the 25 way to get these ratings is to create confrontation, StenoTran 261 1 argument, and in some cases racial and cultural 2 division. All this is done I might add with an 3 interruption every five minutes for a commercial 4 message. 5 1095 Because in this country we have a 6 public broadcaster, there is a real sense of ownership 7 on the part of those of us who use it, I believe, and 8 acknowledgement of that from the hosts of these shows, 9 which shows up in the respectful and challenging way 10 that callers are dealt with. 11 1096 I also feel that in the area of the 12 arts, the CBC is a place where I learn about writers, 13 performers and artists from across this nation. I 14 don't believe that particularly in the case of Canadian 15 writing the stature and international recognition of 16 our Canadian writers would be what it is today without 17 the support of a public broadcaster. Where else on the 18 airwaves would I go to find out what is going on in 19 Maritime theatre or Quebec music or Stratford or the 20 Toronto symphony or the Citadel in Edmonton or a young 21 writer from Saskatoon? 22 1097 Lastly, in terms of radio, where else 23 on the airwaves would I go to get a show like "Ideas"? 24 This is a show that, over the years, has enriched and 25 challenged my intellect like none other. It StenoTran 262 1 consistently delivers the highest quality discourse on 2 a whole spectrum of topics from spirituality of 3 politics, from science to literature, and to see the 4 budget of a show like that cut in the past few years 5 has saddened me greatly. 6 1098 You notice that I haven't said much 7 about CBC TV. The reason for me is simple. I believe 8 that everything I have said about radio should be so 9 for the TV side and is not. Being a public 10 broadcaster, I think that the CBC TV should not be 11 commercial in any way. It should be truly public in 12 the way that radio is now or the way that the BBC 13 currently is. That is to say without advertising. In 14 this new world of information technology, of 100 15 commercial channels with more to come, with the 16 commercialization of the Internet, we do not need 17 another commercial outlet. What we need in this global 18 communications network is a truly Canadian 19 commercial-free broadcast. 20 1099 I can hear the clamour now. Where 21 would we get the money? Taxpayers would never support 22 it. I don't have the answers for that. But a way 23 should be found either by downsizing it to a level that 24 we could sustain it at, or by finding the money 25 somewhere. What better place to debate these questions StenoTran 263 1 than the CBC itself. 2 1100 In closing, just let me say that my 3 concern today is that the CBC is at a crucial juncture 4 in its history, that its budgets have been slashed to a 5 point where it barely survives, that an overworked and 6 demoralized workforce is clamouring for salary catch up 7 and threatening a lengthy disruption, but there is a 8 dominant ideology in the land that in the interests of 9 efficiency and fiscal conservatism cries for less 10 government and the privatization of this institution as 11 well as others. For myself, I don't understand why 12 that at a time of great economic growth and record 13 corporate profits and record stock markets that there 14 is no money for this and many other important public 15 institutions. But I suppose that is another topic for 16 another day in a different forum. 17 1101 As a citizen of this country, I feel 18 that the survival and health of the CBC was never more 19 important. In this highly commercialized marketplace 20 that we live in, the very notions of democracy and 21 public good are threatened. In a country as large and 22 diverse as ours, a country that is quickly forgetting 23 its history and being consumed by regional disharmony, 24 a country dominated by American consumer culture, a 25 country that because of its harsh climate and dispersed StenoTran 264 1 population knew from the very beginning that notions of 2 equality in the public good would be crucial to its 3 survival, that in this country called Canada, the CBC 4 may in fact be critical to its ongoing viability. 5 Thank you. 6 --- Applause / Applaudissements 7 1102 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 8 O'Shea. 9 1103 MS VOGEL: Our next presenter is 10 George Laverock. 11 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 12 1104 MR. GEORGE LAVEROCK: Commissioners, 13 ladies and gentlemen, please allow me to introduce 14 myself. My name is George Laverock and my background 15 is that I was a producer, executive producer and 16 manager at CBC radio in Vancouver for 30 years. 17 1105 I retired from the corporation in the 18 fall of 1997. When I was an employee of the CBC, it 19 was not appropriate for me to comment on the CBC's 20 performance at such hearings as these. Now that I am a 21 free citizen, so to speak, I feel there are certain 22 things that need to be said, and certain things that 23 need to be supported. 24 1106 Let me say at the outset of my 25 remarks that I am a strong supporter of the CBC, both StenoTran 265 1 radio and television, and in an overall sense I think 2 the corporation is doing the best job that it can under 3 the circumstances, which are dire. 4 1107 I think that it is immensely ironic 5 that the CRTC, a regulatory arm of the Canadian 6 government, is asking the public how well the CBC is 7 doing after the same government has cut off financial 8 support for the CBC at the knees. 9 --- Applause / Applaudissements 10 1108 MR. GEORGE LAVEROCK: It is a little 11 like Agriculture Canada asking a farmer who has no 12 seeds, no fertilizer and no water, "How is your garden 13 growing?" 14 1109 I want to emphasize the fact that the 15 CBC does so much else besides journalism. This was 16 mentioned earlier by Mr. Court, I believe. This is 17 often overlooked. As a matter of fact, I was surprised 18 to hear on a private television station the statement 19 last week that over 2,500 CBC journalists may go on 20 strike next week. The fact is that only a fraction of 21 these people are journalists. The majority of the 22 people in this union are working in other fields, such 23 as arts, music and drama. I think that the politicians 24 often forget this fact as well. They forget that the 25 performing artists in this country would have no way of StenoTran 266 1 reaching audiences outside of their own community 2 without the CBC. 3 1110 In my opinion, Canadians should value 4 very highly the opportunity that the CBC networks offer 5 for their artists and creative people to communicate 6 with people in every part of the country. There is 7 nothing like CBC radio in the U.S.A., both the NPR and 8 the APR are ragtag consortiums of individual stations 9 which don't really help very much for Americans to 10 communicate with each other. 11 1111 My point is how would people in 12 Halifax or Montreal know about our best West Coast 13 performers if there were no CBC? Would the private 14 broadcasters step in and start broadcasting concerts by 15 the Vancouver Chamber Choir or the Brad Turner Jazz 16 Quintet? 17 1112 We all know the answer to that 18 question. Private radio does nothing to develop or 19 expose Canadian talent other than spinning CDs. They 20 even complain about having to spin Canadian CDs. 21 1113 This unique broadcasting system that 22 we have in Canada, and I am referring to the capability 23 of the CBC networks to reach almost all Canadians at 24 any given time, this unique system brings with it an 25 enormous responsibility for high standards. I suppose StenoTran 267 1 that is what the CRTC is really asking in a way: Are 2 the standards being maintained and are the public 3 airwaves being used in the most wise fashion? 4 1114 I should say that I believe that the 5 CBC shouldn't try to be everything to everybody. CBC 6 radio, for example, has traditionally designed programs 7 for mature, intelligent people. In my view, it 8 shouldn't apologize for that or start pumping more 9 resources into doing more pop culture programming just 10 in order to try to attract more young listeners. 11 1115 One of the other major points that I 12 would like to make this evening is that the CBC must 13 always be on guard against what I would call creeping 14 centralization. As the corporation struggles to deal 15 with the enormous cuts that have been imposed since 16 Perrin Beatty became president, it must be tempting for 17 the network management to circle their wagons, so to 18 speak, and to protect as best as they can the 19 programming resources in Toronto, the so-called 20 broadcasting centre. I personally have never accepted 21 the notion that Toronto is at the centre and that the 22 rest of us are in regions. For me, Ontario is a region 23 as well. 24 1116 On the radio side, one of the 25 traditional strengths of the corporation as we used to StenoTran 268 1 know it was to decentralize program production. Now, 2 in the aftermath of the latest round of budget cuts, 3 less and less programs with meaningful budgets are 4 coming from outside of Toronto. 5 1117 For example, all the radio programs 6 on Radio Two, which broadcast live concerts are now 7 centralized in Toronto. My argument is that it is 8 impossible for someone in Toronto to have a balanced 9 and informed view of what is going on in any cultural 10 field in the entire country. By having different 11 programs originating in different broadcast centres, 12 there is a much better chance that a balanced and 13 relevant menu of talent will be exposed to the 14 listeners. 15 1118 The other aspect of this problem is 16 the issue of the fairness of access to the airwaves by 17 artists in all parts of the country. Creative people 18 with something to say do not all live in Toronto. 19 1119 Since I personally have had 30 years 20 experience inside the CBC, I can say without any doubt 21 that the service has been whittled away and is 22 struggling to remain distinctive. For example, in my 23 field of expertise, music, there are fewer and fewer 24 concerts broadcast every month on CBC radio. There are 25 so few people left to handle the production of these StenoTran 269 1 events that the script and presentation research is 2 becoming more superficial and down right sloppy. Every 3 one who is still there is doing about three people's 4 jobs and the product is bound to suffer. 5 1120 What can the CRTC do about these 6 problems? As a regulator and not a funding source, 7 there is only so much that you can do. But I sincerely 8 hope that you will make decisions and recommendations 9 that will strengthen the CBC and return it to the 10 status of one of the leading public broadcasters in the 11 world. 12 1121 Thank you. 13 --- Applause / Applaudissements 14 1122 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 15 Laverock. 16 1123 MS VOGEL: Next, I would invite Irene 17 Javor to make her presentation. 18 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 19 1124 MS IRENE JAVOR: Thank you. The 20 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation had its beginnings in 21 the 1930s and since then the CBC has stood as Canada's 22 principal independent tool for cultural and political 23 sovereignty. 24 1125 The CBC has kept us informed about 25 regional, national and global events. It has been the StenoTran 270 1 tie that bounds together the different regions of 2 Canada and has helped strengthen its national identity. 3 1126 I have listened to CBC radio since I 4 was a child in Winnipeg. On school days when, at one 5 p.m., I heard the start of the time signal from the 6 Dominion Observatory in Winnipeg, I knew then that 7 before the long dash started that I had to run out of 8 the house or I would be late for school. 9 1127 In the 1940s and in the '50s, we used 10 to listen to plays, stories, newscasts, music and even 11 political debates on CBC radio. This was a main link 12 to the rest of Canada and to the world. 13 1128 The result of polls taken have shown 14 that 80 per cent of Canadians want a solid, secure and 15 effective public broadcasting system. This strong show 16 of support for the CBC should be all the justification 17 needed by the CRTC and the federal government to 18 restore funding to enable the CBC to return to the 19 vibrant and interesting radio programming it once 20 produced. 21 1129 CBC programming should reflect and 22 interpret the views and ideals of all its citizens from 23 coast to coast. As a result of the many cuts in 24 funding at the CBC, too many of our talented writers, 25 announcers, producers and dedicated staff at CBC have StenoTran 271 1 left the corporation and been forced to work elsewhere. 2 Much of this creative talent has been lost to Canada 3 with many of the former CBC staffers moving to the 4 United States. 5 1130 As a result of these major funding 6 cuts continuing, the CBC is rapidly losing its ability 7 to produce regional productions. The diversity in 8 Canada will not be properly addressed if all or most of 9 the CBC productions originate in Eastern Canada. There 10 is life in Canada outside of the Toronto area. 11 1131 The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation 12 no longer has foreign correspondents in London, Moscow, 13 New Delhi, New York and Paris. The only remaining CBC 14 foreign correspondent is based in Washington, D.C. 15 1132 If this sorry state of affairs is 16 allowed to continue, Canadian news on CBC radio and 17 television will be forced to rely on non-Canadian 18 correspondents. Consequently, the basis of what is 19 considered newsworthy and relevant to Canadians will be 20 decided by local broadcasters, not Canadian 21 correspondents. 22 1133 These newscasts will then not reflect 23 the Canadian viewpoint. Our newscasts and programs 24 will then be judged as similar in value to those 25 originating from a banana republic and not from a StenoTran 272 1 member of the G-7. 2 1134 It is of vital importance that both 3 CBC radio and television produce and air more programs 4 about Canadian history. We seem to have a generation 5 of young people that is very knowledgeable about 6 American history and yet has scant knowledge of the 7 important events that shaped Canada. Whether or not 8 our educational system is to blame is not the issue 9 here; it is that our public broadcasting system has the 10 responsibility to remind Canadians about our past. 11 1135 If the CBC abdicates this 12 responsibility, this generation of Canadians and the 13 next one coming up will not know or care about Canadian 14 history and Canadian ideals. If native born Canadians 15 do not know and celebrate the rich and interesting past 16 of their country, then our new Canadians will never 17 have a chance to learn about their new country and 18 become part of this tapestry that is Canada. Canada 19 will then face a very real prospect of being absorbed 20 by the United States and becoming a colony, not even 21 attaining statehood. 22 1136 CBC is unique. CBC radio and 23 television should never even try to compete with the 24 private sector. 25 1137 CBC should concentrate on what it StenoTran 273 1 does best. CBC's mandate is to inform Canadians on 2 issues relevant to Canadians with programming that 3 reflects the Canadian identity in various regions of 4 the country. 5 1138 I strongly urge the members of the 6 CRTC to consider the desires and wishes of the Canadian 7 public when making decisions which will affect the CBC 8 and, ultimately, the Canadian public. 9 1139 Thank you. 10 --- Applause / Applaudissements 11 1140 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 12 Javor. 13 1141 We are going to take our evening 14 break, 15 minutes, and we will recommence at quarter to 15 eight. Thank you. 16 --- Recess at 1930 / Suspension à 1930 17 --- Upon resuming at 1950 / Reprise à 1930 18 1142 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary, 19 will you call the next presenter? 20 1143 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Commissioner 21 Grauer. I would like to call David Lemon to make his 22 presentation, please. 23 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 24 1144 MR. DAVID LEMON: Thank you. Before 25 I start my presentation proper, having listened of StenoTran 274 1 course to all the interesting presentations we have 2 already had, I can't help but speculate that we are 3 hearing very much what we would have heard three years 4 ago before successive governments began to cut the CBC 5 really savagely. It seems to me quite possible that 6 there isn't a government in this country for the last 7 15 or 20 years that really values the significance of 8 the CBC. As a portion of the total budget of this 9 country, it is minuscule and the amount of damage that 10 is being done by the cuts is tremendous. They knew 11 that when they started to make them. 12 1145 I am going to limit my comments to 13 CBC radio and CBC Radio Two particularly. 14 Paradoxically, in a world of expanding image delivery 15 systems, the value of subsidized non-commercial radio 16 as a medium of entertainment and information will 17 become greater. 18 1146 In a multi-channel world, music 19 chosen by the listener will be available in a range of 20 pipelines, but programming, which implies a community 21 of audience sharing ideas, music, learning and humour, 22 will continue indefinitely to require the agency of a 23 broadcaster. 24 1147 Drama, comedy, programs about music, 25 news and current affairs will be a significant choice StenoTran 275 1 of the vast boomer population, starting I expect in 2 about five years when they begin to have more leisure. 3 At the same time, there is a great opportunity as yet 4 unmet to offer programming for young people in forms 5 which commercial broadcasters cannot create. 6 1148 Yet, we are experiencing a fatal loss 7 of confidence in the value of commercial-free 8 programming, programming directed at people who enjoy 9 knowing more about something after you listen than 10 before, and who are actually expected to be engaged in 11 listening, not doing three other things at the same 12 time. 13 1149 There are signs that the CBC itself 14 is starving CBC Radio Two of resources. 15 1150 The annual report is an unhelpful 16 document, even contradictory, and the problem with 17 discussion of CBC matters is that we only glean 18 information from press reports and rhetoric, which is 19 very dangerous. I have learned that the budget of CBC 20 Radio Two is now about $8 million a year. Three years 21 ago, it was $13 million. So, it used to be 1 per cent 22 of the total budget and it is now about .75 per cent. 23 1151 On page 6 of the annual report, the 24 president of the corporation claims that its annual 25 expenditures were cut by $400 million in the three StenoTran 276 1 years prior to the 1997-98 year. The charts on page 24 2 of the annual report tell a different story. The net 3 drop in the total of appropriations and net revenues 4 from sales and advertising is $147 million, not $400 5 million. So, with nearly 14 per cent of the total 6 revenues going to English radio, which is about 7 $15,500,000, plus a special allocation of $10 million 8 more for radio, it is hard to see why the action has 9 swung so savagely across FM's jugular. 10 1152 Programming is suffering badly. 11 There are almost no discrete programs, just passages of 12 time done which are accompanied by an increasingly 13 small number of guides. Some of these go out of their 14 way to ensure that we are not challenged by anything we 15 might not know and whatever learning they may possess, 16 they go out of their way to disguise under relentless 17 facetiousness. 18 1153 I recently heard the young players of 19 the McGill orchestra described in a jolly way as storm 20 troopers, the idea being I suppose that they will 21 attack the upcoming Brahms symphony with invasive 22 fervour; but in the event it seemed to me the metaphor 23 was not only tasteless and stupid but ignorant. 24 1154 But surely elimination of inanity is 25 not only a matter of expenditure. Perhaps the StenoTran 277 1 starvation is oxygen to the corporate brain. Is CBC 2 moving away from traditional broadcasting all together 3 and intends to invest instead in the pipelines from 4 which people are expected to draw down their 5 entertainment and information? Galaxy perhaps is a 6 start. 7 1155 Whether offering such services, which 8 are essentially feeds of sonic wallpaper, constitutes 9 public broadcasting is a moot point, however the shape 10 of programs and other suppliers to the pipelines of the 11 future. 12 1156 There needs to be a radical shift in 13 direction toward distinctive program shape and 14 structure, if Radio Two is not going to become little 15 more than a constant stream of music. Such invaluable 16 enterprises as the CBC Vancouver Orchestra, the last 17 radio orchestra in North America, will be irrelevant if 18 all the public is deemed to want is bits and pieces of 19 music from every genre at once. 20 1157 What is needed is a wholesale 21 revision of values at CBC Radio Two and the corporation 22 should allocate to it at least the equivalent 23 proportion of its overall budget to the service that it 24 did three years ago. 25 1158 Radio offers something better than StenoTran 278 1 choice of entertainment options we control. It offers 2 the unexpected. The pleasures of surprise and expanded 3 horizons don't come from what we already know but from 4 what we don't know. 5 1159 I want to hear programs from other 6 regions on the network, as well as my own, and I want 7 other regions to know what is going on in British 8 Columbia. 9 1160 The commonplace that CBC is a vital 10 component in whatever national experience we share is 11 true. Without it, we would either have to invent it or 12 succumb to the southern gravity which affects every 13 commercial activity in this country. 14 1161 I offer another dispiriting 15 possibility for the abdication of values by the 16 management of CBC Radio Two. Bent upon earning 17 revenues to compensate for loss of appropriation, which 18 is an odd word for subsidy, they will not support a 19 service which under the conditions of its licence 20 cannot earn revenues from advertising. 21 1162 So, it may be thought that the answer 22 to everyone's prayers might be to allow CBC to accept 23 commercial sponsorships and sell advertising time. I 24 hope you will not permit the corporation to take so 25 easy a path. I hope that there remains at CBC some StenoTran 279 1 vestige of interest in maintaining the peculiar and 2 uniquely Canadian value of a tiny sliver of public 3 broadcasting which is not used as a vehicle for any 4 commercial interests whatever. 5 1163 There is nothing wrong with 6 commercial interests. Indeed, there are things CBC 7 could do to generate revenues, as the non-commercial 8 BBC has done very successfully. But they do not belong 9 in every field of human endeavour. 10 1164 The evidence is that public cultural 11 organizations, particularly those closest to the 12 entertainment business, will lose their individuality 13 if they are thrown to the mercies of subscriber-based 14 programming and market-oriented subsidy and reliant 15 upon it for programming, become intellectual servants 16 rather than leaders. 17 1165 What radio does well, better than any 18 other medium, is to offer a sound scape in the 19 imagination. That constructs places that we had not 20 been, invents dramatic stages for us and places us 21 among musicians. Radio governed by voices who trust 22 that we want to know more, feel more, understand more 23 than we do now. 24 1166 Much of this remains at CBC. There 25 is much to be proud of. There is no reason why it StenoTran 280 1 cannot be added to. CBC must not only not compete with 2 private broadcasters, who cannot consistently offer 3 programming of any substantial depth, it must embrace 4 the task of seeking out for broadcast the finest minds 5 we have, the most expert guides, the clearest 6 interpreters of the most complex issues. We want the 7 funniest and the wittiest, too. 8 1167 Whatever excellence CBC radio can 9 point to, a sense of doom and diminution is heavy in 10 the atmosphere. Cuts upon cuts do not seem to reflect 11 that the corporation as a whole retains 85 per cent of 12 the revenues it enjoyed three years ago. The limited 13 hosts, increasing errors of programming given over to 14 eclectic music choices and small snippets, the 15 unscripted and unfiltered banter, the chummy chats 16 between journalists which are taking the place of 17 formal reports, are all signs of radio dementia which 18 ends in death by absorption into the private 19 broadcasting sector which ticks emulate. 20 1168 CBC must be given the mandate to 21 continue to offer content which, by virtue of 22 arms-length funding, only a subsidized broadcaster can 23 offer. It should not at the same time be required to 24 increase audiences as a consequence of its grants. 25 Excellence is hard to measure and because it can only StenoTran 281 1 be measured by people with experience not at everyone's 2 disposal it has become regarded as elitist. For that 3 reason, has the arbitrary standard of numbers of 4 listeners been set as a value of programming? But do 5 not management of CBC imagine people are all enjoying 6 the cheap tricks of commercial broadcasting on CBC? Is 7 the persistence of numbers of listeners due to loyalty 8 in spite of the diminution of standards or driven by 9 it? Do the CBC know? 10 1169 Not every road in the Northwest 11 Territories can be used by all Canadians. That doesn't 12 mean that people in the Northwest Territories shouldn't 13 have roads. So not every Canadian will want to use 14 what CBC Radio Two offers to a minority. But if there 15 is any characteristics of our age, it is diversity. It 16 seems that even in the sphere of public broadcasting, 17 the few are threatened to be denied what the many are 18 presumed not to want. Now, that is elitist. 19 1170 Thank you. 20 --- Applause / Applaudissements 21 1171 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. 22 Lemon. 23 1172 MS VOGEL: Our next presenter this 24 evening is Shirley Young. 25 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION StenoTran 282 1 1173 MS SHIRLEY YOUNG: Can you hear me? 2 1174 Good evening. I feel very privileged 3 to have the opportunity to speak in support of the 4 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. 5 1175 My personal involvement with the CBC 6 was with respect to my late son Peter. Peter was a 7 young Vancouver physician who in 1990 lost his vision 8 to AIDS. At that time, a physician friends of Peter's 9 came up with a very compelling idea, to do a televised 10 presentation of a person with AIDS. This would provide 11 a face and an identity to this illness which at that 12 time held a tremendous stigma and about which the 13 public remained largely uninformed. 14 1176 He took this idea to the CBC and they 15 courageously agreed to do five, three-minute diaries, 16 which would air each evening for one week. 17 1177 The concept was a simple one. It 18 would just be Peter speaking to the viewing audience, 19 telling them what this illness was all about and how it 20 impacted a person's life and the lives of those around 21 him. He would become known simply as Doctor Peter. 22 1178 The object was to raise awareness 23 about AIDS and to educate the public. Fortunately, the 24 producer chosen for this project was David Kapernie and 25 together David and Peter created television history. StenoTran 283 1 1179 The public response to the program 2 was such that the diaries continued once a week for the 3 following two years, for a total of 111 diaries in all, 4 until Peter's death in November 1992. 5 1180 The CBC did accomplish what they set 6 out to do and Peter became Canada's leading 7 spokesperson on HIV and AIDS. As a result of this, he 8 spoke at schools, hospitals, prisons, nurses' 9 conferences and to medical students. 10 1181 The diaries were televised around the 11 world and provided viewers with an understanding and 12 appreciation of the very human dimension of the AIDS 13 tragedy and its affect on the world's population. 14 1182 In mid-June 1991, the AIDS Diaries 15 were selected for a screening at Input '91, an 16 international conference of public broadcasters taking 17 place in Dublin, Ireland. This event hosted a 18 gathering of 600 of the world's highest calibre public 19 television producers who came to view selected pieces 20 and exchange ideas about innovative television. David 21 and Peter had the privilege of attending this 22 conference. This was a tremendous honour and credit to 23 CBC. 24 1183 After Peter's death, HBO in the 25 United States, with the help of David Kipernie, filmed StenoTran 284 1 a compilation of the diaries to be named, "The 2 Broadcast Tapes of Doctor Peter". This documentary won 3 three American Cable Ace Awards for best host, best 4 writer and best documentary, and was also nominated for 5 an Academy Award in 1994. 6 1184 When I said earlier that David and 7 Peter created television history, it really was the 8 truth. This meaningful contribution to society would 9 never have occurred without CBC being far-sighted 10 enough to risk doing such a controversial show, one in 11 which a young gay man would speak to the viewers about 12 his life with AIDS. Naturally, there were some viewers 13 who did not agree. But it was a clear case of 14 considering the potential, to enlighten and inform the 15 public on an issue which in 1990 was still being 16 politely avoided. 17 1185 I wonder how many lives were spared 18 and, perhaps, how many millions of health care dollars 19 were saved because the CBC had the gumption to air this 20 show. 21 1186 The AIDS Diaries gave Peter a 22 meaningful purpose the final two years of his life. 23 With the loss of his vision, he was unable to practise 24 medicine in the conventional way. But CBC provided him 25 with the opportunity to practise medicine in a more StenoTran 285 1 unique manner. 2 1187 Those who benefited from his message 3 went beyond people with HIV and AIDS. His advocacy 4 work included those suffering with serious illnesses of 5 all types, as well as to the elderly who struggle with 6 the aging process and the physical challenges it 7 presents. We were often told by numerous people -- and 8 I have to say continue to be told by numerous people -- 9 how grateful they were for the program and how it 10 helped them to cope with their life struggles. 11 1188 When Peter lost his fight to AIDS, 12 CBC televised the memorial service, and this was a very 13 painful time for our family. The CBC cameramen and 14 crew were the epitome of dignity. Never once did they 15 intrude or make us feel our privacy was being invaded. 16 I doubt very much that such could be said had any other 17 television network been involved. 18 1189 I will state this on behalf of my 19 family and the board members of the Doctor Peter AIDS 20 Foundation and take this opportunity to express our 21 gratitude to the CBC for the support they have given 22 and continue to give to the Interim Doctor Peter Day 23 Centre and Hospice residents for people with HIV here 24 in Vancouver, which daily provides medical and 25 emotional support for people living with this illness StenoTran 286 1 in a safe and loving environment. 2 1190 This centre is the first of its kind 3 in Canada. This centre, I am sure, would not exist 4 without the CBC. 5 1191 Now, I would like to say that had 6 Peter never been ill, had the diaries never existed, I 7 would still like to be here this evening to speak in 8 support of the CBC. As we all know, television is the 9 most powerful media in the world today. It impacts 10 lives in a very profound way. Used properly, it can be 11 a marvellous tool; but used improperly, it can destroy 12 and ruin the fragile fabric of our modern society. The 13 amount of violence and negativity on television screens 14 in living rooms today should be a serious concern for 15 us all. 16 1192 Environmentalists have made us aware 17 of the careless way which society has abused its 18 natural resources and, unfortunately, in some cases 19 done irreparable damage. Children are the most 20 precious resource we have. Society has a 21 responsibility to protect their emotional environment. 22 There is more violence and crime today in our western 23 world than should exist and I feel that one of the 24 reasons for this is because we allow the pollution of 25 young minds to be of little importance. StenoTran 287 1 1193 After a recent incident involving the 2 violent death of a young person, fellow students at the 3 high school were interviewed and asked why such a 4 tragedy had occurred. Do you know what one of the 5 young girls said? Today, violence is entertainment, 6 and that is pretty scary. 7 1194 Private television stations are 8 naturally profit driven. Thank goodness the CBC's 9 mandate is to inform, enlighten and entertain by 10 creating and presenting distinctive, high quality 11 programs, including some of the best from around the 12 world. 13 1195 CBC has a commitment to serve the 14 Canadian public by providing relevant, reliable and 15 meaningful programming that reflects the diversity of 16 Canada to Canadians and to the world. It is not about 17 selling blue jeans and junk food. 18 1196 According to a recent article in the 19 Vancouver Sun, the CBC costs each of us only $27 per 20 year, or a little more than 50-cents per week, versus 21 well over double that cost to people in the U.K. for 22 the BBC. The article further stated that polls show 23 that 80 per cent of Canadians really love their CBC and 24 want it strengthened. 25 1197 In closing, I just wish to state that StenoTran 288 1 I sincerely hope the CRTC will recognize the 2 contribution of the CBC over these many years and 3 ensure that it be allowed to continue to provide 4 Canadians with the high calibre of entertainment and 5 news broadcasting that they have done so competently in 6 the past. 7 1198 Thank you. 8 --- Applause / Applaudissements 9 1199 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mrs. 10 Young. 11 1200 MS VOGEL: Our next presenter this 12 evening is Evelyn Parsons. 13 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 14 1201 MS EVELYN PARSONS: Good evening. I 15 would like to thank everybody from the CRTC panel for 16 coming. 17 1202 I am having a bit of an eye problem 18 today, along with other things, so I am going to 19 struggle through this. 20 1203 I am very pleased to have been 21 allowed to be given this opportunity to express our 22 views on public broadcasting. I am going to start by 23 listing some of the programs that I enjoy. I enjoy the 24 news presentations, local, national and "Newsworld". I 25 never feel the CBC has mistaken a news broadcast for StenoTran 289 1 the latest sit-com. The only time I felt that they 2 offered something I could do without was the 3 Bill-Monica story, and I had the choice of hitting the 4 off button, and I did. 5 1204 I also like "Fifth Estate", the 6 "Health Show", "Country Canada" and "The Nature of 7 Things". Productions such as "Emily", "Wind At My 8 Back", Canadian stories of earlier times in our 9 history, and I see CTV is now running "Emily", maybe 10 CBC and the other production companies can realize a 11 few dollars for the kitty. 12 1205 I was also mightily pleased when I 13 heard that CBC had been awarded the rights to produce 14 the coverage of the Olympics for the next umpteen years 15 -- thank God. Can you spell Lillehammer? That was 16 pathetic. If that was a sample of what the private 17 sector can do, forget it. 18 1206 I started to keep a time card of the 19 minutes of advertising and the minutes of goofy 20 comments as opposed to the actual airtime of the 21 Olympic competitions. The longer it went on the more 22 disgruntled I became. You are a hostage to that 23 network and their advertiser. At that time, I didn't 24 have remote control. I can't remember how many days it 25 was before I went out to get something. StenoTran 290 1 1207 Problems with the CBC radio. A 2 number of years ago, there were discussions concerning 3 the CBC and the consensus of opinion of every one was 4 leave the CBC radio alone. It appeared to be working 5 the way everyone wanted. Here, too, there were cuts 6 and voices we had come to admire had suddenly 7 disappeared. There used to be radio dramas, some of 8 them adventure stories, mysteries, current-day fables, 9 all dried up. There is still one weekly comedy, the 10 "Dead Dog Cafe" with Tom King, Gracey Heavy-Hand and 11 Jasper Friendly Bear from Blossom, Alberta. 12 1208 We have "This Morning" with Michael 13 Enright and Avril Benoit. From noon to two we have 14 local programming and then Bill Richardson which is 15 broadcast across the country, I believe. 16 Unfortunately, for me, I seem to be out running around 17 on many days. 18 1209 What I don't like about CBC, just 19 kidding, I don't like the fact that the Governor of the 20 CBC is an appointee of the government and that the CRTC 21 is also appointed by the government. Given that Prime 22 Minister Chrétien of all past Prime Ministers is the 23 most antagonistic to the CBC, and if you enjoy the CBC 24 it appears like a recipe for disaster. Can you spell 25 "Little Red Book", a promise of stable funding? What StenoTran 291 1 stable funding? How about getting back to regional 2 programming? 3 1210 Vancouver produced some excellent 4 shows. I wrote one time to express my delight and they 5 wrote back to say that the program had been made by 6 local producers and that they were planning on 7 producing a sequel, "Green Grass and Running Water". 8 You know what happened to that, don't you? 9 1211 As to the future, unlike a chap I saw 10 on TV yesterday, whose feeling was that in the 11 500-channel universe CBC would become redundant, I 12 don't think so. I think more than ever we need our 13 history, tales of our past, and a vision for our 14 future. 15 1212 I have a suggestion re youth 16 programming. Why not something along the same lines as 17 "Newsworld", with its own channel and continuous 18 programs of interest to young people? It is the younger 19 generation who don't seem to be attracted to CBC except 20 in more remote areas. 21 1213 Thank you very much. 22 --- Applause / Applaudissements 23 1214 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 24 Parsons. 25 1215 MS VOGEL: I would like to invite StenoTran 292 1 Anne-Marie Lawrence to make her presentation, please. 2 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 3 1216 MS ANNE-MARIE LAWRENCE: Thank you. 4 Good evening. My name is Anne-Marie Lawrence, and 5 first I should like to thank the CRTC for inviting 6 ordinary Canadians such as myself to take part in these 7 consultations on the CBC's role, the programming it 8 offers at national and regional levels, and the 9 direction that it should take in the future. 10 1217 I know I am repeating the words of 11 other presenters when I tell you that while all of CBC 12 is important to me as our national broadcaster, it is 13 CBC radio, both AM and FM, that is of enormous 14 importance to me and to my family, including my 24-year 15 old daughter. 16 1218 In a description of who I am I would 17 include, I am a CBC listener. I am also sure you have 18 heard similar stories when I say that on arriving in 19 Canada in 1967, it was difficult to grasp what this 20 country was about until I discovered CBC radio. CBC 21 radio opened a window on the entire country, 22 introducing me to the arts, the music, the musicians, 23 and singers, the poets, the writers, the intellectuals, 24 the humorists, the actors, the personalities of this 25 great country. StenoTran 293 1 1219 CBC taught me how to become a 2 Canadian, how to understand its immensity, its history, 3 its regional differences and its similarities. 4 1220 It has kept me informed about current 5 affairs, the political parties and the politics of the 6 nation and it has informed me about the governments at 7 local and national levels. This window of information 8 and cultural diversity is simply not available on any 9 other radio stations. 10 1221 I believe that CBC radio has done a 11 really excellent job in its role as national 12 broadcaster, even under tremendous cutbacks in recent 13 years. 14 1222 CBC television, which I don't watch 15 as much as I listen to the radio, offers many fine 16 broadcasts, but it has not defined itself with the same 17 degree of success as radio. I would like to see CBC 18 television continue to increase Canadian programming 19 and programming from other parts of the world with the 20 exception of the United States, which is well 21 represented on other channels. Canadian programming 22 should originate from different regions of Canada at a 23 national and also local programming in order to move 24 away from the Toronto-centric influences. Perhaps it 25 would be a wise move if the television arm studied just StenoTran 294 1 why so many Canadians are passionate in their defence 2 of CBC radio. 3 1223 However, it all comes down to 4 funding. As a national broadcaster, the television arm 5 of CBC is somewhat constrained and possibly compromised 6 in its programming decisions by its need for funding 7 from advertising revenue. It is a need that increases 8 annually as during the past few years we have seen 9 successive governments reduce CBC funding to totally 10 inadequate levels for a nation's public broadcaster. 11 1224 Why? I keep asking why we have a 12 government that feels it is necessary to constrain and 13 limit national broadcasting in this way. 14 1225 In recent years we have seen cuts in 15 funding that have led to demoralizing lay-offs of the 16 staff, early retirements, alarming cuts in areas of 17 programming, the most recent the decision to close many 18 foreign news bureaus. 19 1226 World news siphoned to us through 20 British or American news correspondents is totally 21 unacceptable for the Canadian public. We need 22 investigative journalism both at home and abroad to be 23 undertaken by Canadian journalists. 24 1227 The board of the CBC administers 25 these cuts. The board of the CBC consists of political StenoTran 295 1 appointees, some of whom have no understanding or 2 experience in the field of broadcasting. As political 3 appointees, it appears that they do, however, 4 understand that the current government is intent on 5 funding cuts that go beyond national fiscal restraint. 6 Again, it is important to ask the question: Why has 7 the government taken this position? The result of the 8 cutbacks has been a downward spiral that is presently 9 at a critical juncture. Unless CBC is offered 10 increased funding, it will undoubtedly deteriorate 11 resulting in listener and viewer dissatisfaction. 12 1228 Before the CBC ventures into any of 13 the recently rumoured expansion plans, there should be 14 a demand for increased funding to return the CBC that 15 currently exists to some of its former strengths. 16 International coverage other than U.S. coverage should 17 be increased in areas of culture, current affairs, news 18 and entertainment. The foreign news bureaus should be 19 reopened and new ones added. "The National" news 20 should have a greater level of in-depth world news and 21 Canadian news. At the moment, we are too often offered 22 very short clips on important news items. 23 1229 As a fan of "As It Happens" since its 24 inception, I often listen to call back calls from 25 American listeners who frequently indicate that they StenoTran 296 1 love the program and to "keep up the good work". 2 1230 While Americans have some public 3 broadcasting, it is not to the extent or of the calibre 4 of CBC radio. CBC radio is a distinctively Canadian 5 voice that has given us the voices of so many 6 Canadians. Time limits us here, but think of the 7 Canadians from so many walks of life that the CBC 8 brought to my kitchen and to yours. Here are just a 9 small number: Northrop Frye, W.O. Mitchell, Glenn 10 Gould, Barbara Frum, Allan Maitland, Stan Rogers, 11 Margaret Laurence, Robertson Davies, now all sadly gone 12 in life they can live on for us through radio. 13 1231 As Canadians, we have a common 14 knowledge of so many people and programs. I cannot 15 imagine my daily life without CBC radio. I listen as I 16 drive my car, cook dinner, iron, work at the computer. 17 Sometimes I simply sit and listen. 18 1232 CBC radio offers programming that is 19 thoughtful, provocative, pleasing, sometimes annoying 20 but almost always interesting, and what a variety of 21 programming: "This Morning", "Quirks and Quarks", 22 "Between the Covers", "Ideas", "Richardson's Round-up", 23 "Definitely Not the Opera", "On Stage", "Writers and 24 Company", "Tapestry", "C'est la Vie", Stuart McLean, 25 Arthur Black, all national programs, as well as many StenoTran 297 1 good local programs on the AM dial. 2 1233 On FM, we have the music around This 3 Young Artists Series, Young Composers' Competition, the 4 Greatest Music ever Composed, concerts with the CBC 5 Vancouver Orchestra, concerts from the National Arts 6 Centre and, as has been indicated a little earlier, a 7 lot of these programs have been cut back in recent 8 years and it is a tragedy. 9 1234 We have Sheila Rogers and we have 10 Jurgen Goth leading us through a range of musical 11 offerings and, of course, "Saturday Afternoon at the 12 Opera". 13 1235 For those of us who struggle with our 14 French, Radio Canada is an important opportunity to tap 15 into Canada's French culture, what is said and the view 16 of the Canada it gives us. For those of us who are 17 part of this great country's French culture, it is 18 essential that it stays in place throughout the 19 country. 20 1236 CBC radio and television have made 21 household names out of so many gifted Canadians, most 22 born in Canada, and others who adopted this country for 23 their own. With Margaret Atwood, Alice Munro, Timothy 24 Findlay, Mordechai Richler, Pierre Berton, Peter 25 Gzowski, Leonard Cohen, Carol Shields, Karen, Camp and StenoTran 298 1 Lewis, Jan Wong, Michael Ondatje, Rohinton Mistry, 2 Margaret Visser -- the list just goes on and on and 3 could fill, many, many pages. 4 1237 To the CRTC, I say, in Canada, you do 5 not have to be wealthy to have access to a rich 6 diversity of cultural experiences and ideas. You need 7 only to have a radio with CBC programming. 8 1238 It can be said that culture defines a 9 country, but that can only happen if the country has a 10 strong, vibrant and unique culture. Pierre Trudeau 11 once contended that being Canadian is like being in bed 12 with an elephant when it comes to the United States. 13 As it is, programming from the United States is readily 14 available to all Canadian viewers. If we allow 15 Canadian national broadcasting to disappear, I fear we 16 will become victims of cultural colonization. I also 17 fear that if all programming in Canadian broadcasting 18 is reliant upon advertising revenue, advertising policy 19 may increasingly influence programming decisions and 20 content. 21 1239 Imagine a Canada with only commercial 22 regional radio. Imagine no CBC television with no 23 outlet for Canadian talent, culture and sports. If 24 culture defines a country, and if Canadian culture is 25 the essence of what makes us so different from the StenoTran 299 1 United States and, indeed, the rest of the world, we 2 must ensure that CBC is given the opportunity to 3 recover from the damaging cutbacks to strengthen its 4 position as a Canadian voice, and then, later, when the 5 resources are once again in place, be permitted to 6 expand its programming mandate for both television and 7 radio. 8 1240 I honestly cannot think of a more 9 effective way of bonding this vast country's diverse 10 culture and identity than through a national 11 broadcaster. 12 1241 If through lack of funding and 13 support, the Government of Canada allows the national 14 broadcaster to vanish from the screens and airwaves, it 15 will inevitably lead to a very different kind of 16 Canada. CBC has long been the platform for those first 17 performances or interviews. Without CBC, Canadian 18 artists in every genre would lose their audience, and 19 the audience would have few means of finding them 20 outside large urban areas. 21 1242 Without CBC, we would be ignorant of 22 the lives of our fellow citizens from coast to coast to 23 coast. Imagine, no "Cross Country Checkup", or 24 programs of this type, with the amazing opportunity it 25 gives to Canadians to connect across the country in StenoTran 300 1 discussion and offered opinion. 2 1243 Without this sort of programming, we 3 would lack access to in-depth discussion about 4 government intentions and policies. We could say that 5 the Americans survive without a national broadcaster, 6 but for a country that calls itself a great democracy, 7 they have a very low voter turn out at election time. 8 1244 Finally, just in case I have not made 9 it clear, I feel passionately about the continued 10 existence of CBC as Canada's national broadcaster. I 11 want to see its funding restored and increased so that 12 it can continue to offer a high quality of programming 13 and eventually be able to expand its programming in 14 television and in radio. 15 1245 Dozens of friends who were unable to 16 attend this hearing also feel the same way about CBC, 17 especially radio. As I said at the beginning of this 18 presentation, CBC introduced me to Canada, the culture 19 and the people. As a result, I can say, I am a 20 Canadian. 21 1246 Thank you. 22 --- Applause / Applaudissements 23 1247 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 24 Lawrence. 25 1248 MS VOGEL: Our next presenter this StenoTran 301 1 evening is Josee Lebel. 2 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 3 1249 MS JOSEE LEBEL: So I just wanted to 4 start by mentioning that I am 25 years old. A lot of 5 this seems to resolve around people saying that it is 6 for more mature audiences than myself. I am living 7 proof that people of all ages do listen to the CBC. 8 1250 Just to give you a little bit of 9 history, at 15 years old, I was a liaison officer for 10 my high school in North Bay, Ontario, and I spoke about 11 high school activities to the broadcaster in Sudbury, 12 called CBON, told them all kinds of high school 13 activities that were going on. This was really 14 important because as a French Canadian born outside of 15 Quebec, a lot of people don't realize that other than 16 CBC we don't have a voice, period. 17 1251 If you want to listen to French 18 programming, and if the CBC disappears, you are 19 basically going to be listening to things that are 20 broadcast right out of Montreal that revolve strictly 21 around Quebecers, and programs such as "l'accent 22 francophone", which is on TV, is really exciting for us 23 because we get to listen to people who have our accent. 24 It is very rare to have a TV show that features that. 25 1252 At the age of 20, I travelled StenoTran 302 1 throughout northern Ontario. As I tired of my tapes, I 2 learned of other interesting people out there through 3 CBC radio. One particular -- I don't remember half the 4 things I learned in university but for some reason I 5 remember this Dr. Leaky, who had invented the 6 flatometre, which was to measure the amount of 7 flatulence people have in them. For some reason I 8 still remember that to this day and I enjoyed it very 9 much. 10 1253 I also learned with Arabian Nights 11 because it was broadcast during an evening on one of my 12 travels. 13 1254 Between the ages of 21 and 22 I 14 didn't have cable, so the only other TV station that is 15 we had was CBC. 16 1255 At 23, I did a weekly segment in 17 Vancouver on employment opportunities on the French CBC 18 radio station, revolving like I said employment 19 opportunities in B.C. and the Yukon through the human 20 resource centre for students. 21 1256 So that helped a lot. I got a lot of 22 calls from people in the Yukon, B.C., from all over, 23 saying that they really appreciated having that French 24 voice again, and that they liked my accent. 25 1257 My favourite shows last year were StenoTran 303 1 "Twitch City", which I can't believe didn't make it 2 this year. It was very funny, again, gauged toward my 3 age group, and I always get all my friends to gather 4 around to watch "This Hour Has 22 Minutes" because I 5 think it is just a fabulous show. 6 1258 Tonight, I am here at 25 years old to 7 speak for the environmental community, one organization 8 out of the environmental community called the Society 9 Promoting Environmental Conservation. 10 1259 Currently, there is a perception, 11 often politically motivated, that the CBC is 12 unnecessary, unneeded and irrelevant. SPEC does not 13 share those views. Both CBC radio and TV have covered 14 environmental issues to a far greater extent than other 15 B.C. radio and television broadcasters. Programs such 16 as "Quirks and Quarks" and "The Nature of Things" stand 17 out for their excellent environmental coverage. 18 1260 Nor are environmental stories ignored 19 by public affair programs such as "As It Happens" or 20 "The Journal", which have featured in-depth pieces on 21 global warming, salmon stock depletion and other 22 issues. 23 1261 Local news and information 24 programming such as "Almanac", "Early Edition" and 25 "Broadcast One More" offer a venue for in-depth public StenoTran 304 1 debate on environmental matters. 2 1262 By broadcasting environment stories 3 from different regions in Canada, the CBC enables those 4 of us on the West Coast to understand and appreciate 5 problems facing Canadians living in other provinces. 6 And, just as important, we have an opportunity of 7 sharing our concerns with those living in other areas. 8 1263 CBC programming should be different 9 from that of other broadcasters. Commercial radio and 10 TV is driven by profits. Information programs on 11 public issues such as the environment seldom attract 12 the same audience numbers as highly promoted Hollywood 13 productions such as "Melrose Place". 14 1264 Private broadcasters therefore are 15 focused on entertainment programming that maximize 16 audience numbers and advertiser revenues. 17 1265 CBC is in the fortunate position of 18 not being totally dependent on advertiser revenue and 19 can produce much needed public affairs programming that 20 would otherwise not be available. 21 1266 As an environmental education 22 organization, we are deeply concerned about any moves 23 to decrease the ability of a national public 24 broadcaster, such as the CBC, from continuing to 25 provide a broad level of environmental coverage. StenoTran 305 1 1267 Now, I am going to be doing also a 2 little French segment. For those of you who struggle 3 with your French, you may be able to understand some of 4 it. I hope that you do. 5 1268 La Société pour la sauvegarde de 6 l'environnement aimerait remercier le CRTC pour cette 7 opportunité de pouvoir s'exprimer au sujet de la 8 Société Radio-Canada. Actuellement, il semblerait que 9 la SRC soit considérée inutile, superflue et hors de 10 propos, ce point de vue étant souvent politiquement 11 motivé. SPEC ne partage pas ce point de vue. 12 1269 Les programmes de radio proposés par 13 la SRC couvrent divers sujets qui ont trait à 14 l'environnement d'une manière plus complète que 15 n'importe quelle autre chaîne en Colombie-Britannique. 16 Vu du côté anglais, les émissions telles que "Quirks 17 and Quarks" et "The Nature of Things" sont reconnues 18 pour les reportages excellents sur l'écologie et la 19 nature. 20 1270 Les actualités sur l'état de 21 l'environnement comme le réchauffement de la planète et 22 la réduction des réserves de saumon sont explorées et 23 présentées en détail sur "Almanac", "Early Edition", 24 "Micro-Midi" et surtout tôt le matin aux ondes de CBUF. 25 1271 La SRC fournit un forum pour les StenoTran 306 1 débats sur plusieurs questions écologiques. La SRC 2 permet à nous sur la côte ouest de comprendre et 3 d'apprécier les problèmes qu'envisagent les Canadiens 4 d'autres provinces. La SRC nous permet également de 5 faire parvenir nos inquiétudes, nos victoires ainsi que 6 nos défaites aux gens des autres régions. 7 1272 L'information suscite également de 8 l'intérêt sur l'écologie de la part des Canadiens qui 9 n'auraient pas su comment s'impliquer sans les 10 reportages de la SRC. 11 1273 La programmation de la SRC devrait 12 être différente des autres chaînes. La radio et la 13 télé commerciales sont alimentées par le profit. Les 14 programmes éducatifs sur les thèmes publiques tels que 15 l'environnement attirent rarement le même volume de 16 spectateurs que les émissions Hollywoodiennes trop 17 promues comme "Melrose Place" -- you understand a few 18 English words here and there. 19 1274 Les chaînes privées visent produire 20 une programmation divertissante qui fournira le revenu 21 maximum. La Société Radio-Canada a la bonne chance de 22 ne pas être obligée de dépendre complètement sur le 23 revenu des publicités et peut donc fournir une 24 programmation axée sur les affaires publiques qui 25 seraient absentes autrement. StenoTran 307 1 1275 Du point de vue d'un organisme pour 2 l'environnement, nous sommes très inquiets de la 3 possibilité qu'une chaîne publique nationale comme la 4 SRC cesserait de fournir une couverture médiatique 5 aussi complète sur l'environnement au sein de la 6 Colombie-Britannique. 7 1276 Thank you very much. I hope that you 8 appreciated this. 9 --- Applause / Applaudissements 10 1277 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 11 Lebel. 12 1278 MS VOGEL: Our next presenter is Gwen 13 Chute. 14 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 15 1279 MS GWEN CHUTE: Thank you. 16 1280 About seven years ago I was existing 17 zombie-like in a divorce-induced depression trapped in 18 my car on a two-plus hour commute to the University of 19 B.C. I was not in the mood for the rude humour, golden 20 oldies, or country waling at the usual stations, and I 21 had 690 on the dial, and this changed my life. 22 1281 I discovered people and programs that 23 were fascinating, stimulating, and relevant. They 24 connected me to my country, to the many cultures both 25 artistic and ethnic, that contribute to its beauty and StenoTran 308 1 strength and reconnected me to myself because they 2 reawakened in me the interest that I once was so 3 passionate about -- politics, environment, social 4 justice and, thank God, humour, plus many new 5 interests. I soon found myself sitting in a parkade 6 when I should have been in class not wanting to miss 7 the end of the program. 8 1282 Therefore, I wish the CBC to be 9 properly funded. My layperson's definition of 10 "properly" is whatever it takes to provide independent, 11 creative, high quality journalism, from all over the 12 country and the world -- independent, creative, high 13 quality documentary production, investigative reporting 14 and a cultural showcase for Canadian performers, 15 whatever it takes to have greater scope and depth and 16 fewer repeats. 17 1283 Whatever it takes for training, for 18 all those individuals on air and behind the scenes, and 19 adequate job satisfaction and financial reward to keep 20 them there; properly funded to continue and enhance 21 connections with the many fine minds at our 22 universities and institutes. It gives me great 23 reassurance to know that the wealth of knowledge often 24 confined behind ivy-covered walls is being tapped by 25 our national public broadcaster. StenoTran 309 1 1284 Properly funded to continue and 2 enhance our ability to communicate with each other, via 3 the talk back lines, and two practical suggestions are, 4 one, a 1-800 easy to remember number, like 5 1-800-CALLCBC line where viewers or listeners can 6 reconnect to the program's broadcast area in the day. 7 There are so many numbers now, and often given very 8 quickly and usually when I am in my car, and it would 9 be nice to have one number you could contact to get in 10 touch with whatever the particular issue or broadcast 11 was so you could follow up on it. Because I do find 12 the CBC to be a continuing education service for me and 13 my family. 14 1285 Secondly, a way should be found to 15 publish and promote the programming schedule, 16 especially for radio, but for all CBC programs, because 17 I think if people like myself who don't know what they 18 are missing (inaudible) by subscription, there could be 19 free distribution and popular publications, perhaps a 20 little more popular than "Saturday Night". 21 1286 I have become very fond of the people 22 at CBC. The people who work at the CBC must be given 23 greater respect and security because they are the face 24 of the corporation and they are the faces of Canada to 25 other Canadians and to the world. I deplore the split StenoTran 310 1 screen when the credits are run. This is fine work 2 done by fine people. It shouldn't be just skipped by 3 while there is something going on, on the other side of 4 the screen. 5 --- Applause / Applaudissements. 6 1287 MS GWEN CHUTE: I still mourn the 7 loss of Hal Wake, Peter Gzowski and Vicky Gabereau, and 8 I could probably name all the broadcasters when I try 9 to name my favourites. They have actually become real 10 people in my life, people that I consider friends. The 11 CBC should expand its connections to the broadcast 12 journalist and technician schools at the colleges, 13 universities and institutes to provide mentoring for 14 our students. 15 1288 The CBC definitely should have a 16 children's network. As a parent and teacher, I welcome 17 programming that will surely be of higher calibre than 18 the World Wrestling Federation. 19 1289 I heartily endorse the comments 20 earlier about the extent of violence on the screen 21 today and I witness it at school when situations arise 22 with children and we find out that the basis of it is 23 something that they saw on WWF the night before. 24 1290 When, as President of the B.C. Home 25 and School Federation, our PTA, we heartily endorsed StenoTran 311 1 the formation of YTV. We were expecting far better 2 programming, and I know the CBC can deliver, and I know 3 that there are many children and young people who would 4 benefit from them, especially those who are homebound 5 and those children who are new to this country and we 6 have heard that tonight, we have heard from the young 7 woman from Simon Fraser about the programs and we have 8 heard many people all day today how, when they came it 9 Canada, it was the CBC that really connected them to 10 the country. 11 1291 I would also welcome this network 12 back into the schools. Cable in the classroom is 13 rather unwieldy and, again, it would be an opportunity 14 for public institutions, schools, faculties of 15 education and the public broadcaster to work together. 16 1292 My divorce has resulted in a love 17 affair with the CBC, which has since motivated me to 18 travel to Ontario, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia and P.E.I. 19 Quebec is next on my itinerary. 20 1293 To answer the questions posed: How 21 well does the CBC fulfil its role? As well as it can 22 under the circumstances. 23 1294 Should it be different? Improve the 24 circumstances and then, perhaps, we can have less 25 repetition. StenoTran 312 1 1295 How well does it serve regionally and 2 nationally? As well as it can. Again, perhaps we 3 could have less repetition, more scope and depth. 4 1296 Should CBC programming be different? 5 All broadcasters should be held to high standards, but 6 CBC must serve the public good and our democratic 7 interests without regard to profit. It should be 8 released from commercial constraints. 9 1297 A special role in the presentation of 10 Canadian programming? Yes. Support the talent that 11 presents the talent. 12 1298 I hope the CRTC will seriously 13 consider the very strong desire of those of us who 14 value the CBC, radio and TV, not to -- to not only keep 15 it alive but to enable it to flourish for the benefit 16 of all Canadians. 17 1299 Thank you. 18 --- Applause / Applaudissements 19 1300 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 20 Chute. 21 1301 MS VOGEL: Our next presenter this 22 evening is Karen Planden. 23 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 24 1302 MS KAREN PLANDEN: Thank you. I must 25 say before I begin that I just want to make a comment StenoTran 313 1 that listening to everybody it is as though our friend 2 is on the chopping block and we are rallying around to 3 make sure that he or she survives. 4 1303 When I think of the CBC, and I do 5 think of CBC television more -- I used to be an avid 6 radio listener and I have stopped listening to CBC 7 radio, possibly because of some of the voices that are 8 no longer on it. I hope that one day I will come back 9 to that. But when I do think of the CBC, I immediately 10 get a picture of myself as a little girl, fighting with 11 the rabbit ears on a small black and white television 12 set. Absent of cable back then, the CBC was the only 13 channel that came in clearly in the small town in 14 Alberta that I grew up in. I remember "Front Page 15 Challenge", the Apollo and of course I remember the 16 American imports. 17 1304 When I think of those days, I realize 18 my own journey about where I come from, the CBC and 19 what it means to be a Canadian. 20 1305 The CBC is important to Canada and 21 the Canadian culture because it shows us where we have 22 been and how far we have come. 23 1306 I am afraid it doesn't show us where 24 we are going, and perhaps it doesn't show us where we 25 are going because it doesn't show us where we are. StenoTran 314 1 When I watch the CBC today, I don't see myself -- I 2 don't see the 30-somethings reflected in any of the 3 CBC's programming. There was "North of 60", but that 4 is gone. I find it curious that one of CBC's top-rated 5 shows would suddenly disappear. "Beachcombers" lasted 6 18 years. "North of 60" should have received at least 7 half that much airtime. Why? Because it was real. It 8 was about real people, real stories, real life. 9 1307 Now, I don't subscribe to having 10 gratuitous sex or violence on television and I do 11 subscribe to preserving our youth and investing in 12 them. But if you want to know what to do with the CBC, 13 take the gloves off, stop being the country's moral 14 conscience and quit being so damned American. Leave 15 the happy endings to them, they do it so well. That is 16 not to say that we can't have uplifting positive 17 stories. Let's just make them real and it doesn't mean 18 that they have to be void of fantasy, just take the 19 time to watch one of the latest Canadian films, and you 20 will know what I am talking about. Quit giving us a 21 false reflection of ourselves. 22 1308 I don't know this for sure, but I 23 suspect that "This Hour Has 22 Minutes" enjoys very 24 high ratings. Why is the show so successful? Because 25 it has taken the gloves off. It is truly one of the StenoTran 315 1 funniest shows on TV and it is one of the few shows 2 that makes me laugh out loud. "Air Farce" has the same 3 effect. They are completely irreverent and it is so 4 refreshing, not just because of the humour but because 5 of the honesty through the humour. 6 1309 A couple of years ago, I had real 7 hope for the CBC. I watched the news diligently every 8 night. My day wasn't complete until I turned in to 9 watch the CBC nightly news, and then I went to bed. 10 1310 But lately I find myself turning the 11 channel halfway through stories, watching other news 12 programs and not watching the CBC at all. When I ask 13 myself why, it seems to me that I am tired of watching 14 the news from an American perspective. Many times the 15 CBC leads with a Washington story. Is this truly 16 necessary? We are Canadian, not American. Are you 17 telling me that there are not enough Canadian stories 18 to fill 26 minutes? 19 1311 When you go to the states, you would 20 be hard pressed to even hear the name Canada used in 21 any story. So who really cares? Is it the 22 businessmen? Perhaps. Then the businessmen can tune 23 in to any other channel and find out about America and 24 the stock market and, if they choose to turn the 25 channel, I say let them. StenoTran 316 1 1312 I was delighted a couple of years ago 2 when Perrin Beatty announced the CBC would be strictly 3 Canadian programming. I thought, wow, it is about 4 time. However, much to my dismay, in the middle of the 5 afternoon, a rerun of "Three's Company" was on. A 6 rerun of "Hanging In" would have been more appropriate. 7 Or does the United States dictate what we broadcast on 8 our airwaves as well as in our magazines and in our 9 movie theatres? Will it ever be possible for the CBC, 10 the CRTC and the Government of Canada to stop looking 11 and bowing to America's measure of artistic success? 12 1313 Last night, as I was preparing for 13 today, I was watching the CBC evening news and Peter 14 Mansbridge talked about the great snowfall in the 15 eastern United States and how New Jersey got a big dump 16 that almost paralysed them. When I watched "The 17 National" at 11, Lloyd Robertson talked about the 18 severe snow storm that hit the Maritimes. I will watch 19 "The National" tonight. 20 1314 I am sure it sounds like I am 21 anti-American. I am not actually. It is an amazing 22 country, it's just not ours. 23 1315 They certainly don't need help 24 promoting theirs. I am one of the fortunate group of 25 people who have had the opportunity to live, work and StenoTran 317 1 study in the states. It is this opportunity that has 2 made me so proud to be a Canadian. It wasn't long 3 before I realized that even though our two cultures 4 speak the same language, wear the same clothes and, 5 yes, unfortunately, watch the same television, Canada 6 is distinct, but Canada, the entire country, is a 7 distinct society. My friends in the states wouldn't 8 laugh at "This Hour Has 22 Minutes". Not because it 9 isn't funny but because they wouldn't understand it. 10 Just like I didn't understand New Yorkers fold their 11 pizza. 12 1316 I was never so proud to be a Canadian 13 as when the CBC didn't censor Alanis Morissette's song 14 on the Grammy's. That is progress. That is real. 15 That is leadership. Not because a profane word made it 16 through the censors, but because the integrity of one 17 of Canada's leading artists was not compromised at any 18 cost. That is what we need and that is what we expect 19 from the CBC, the raw, uncensored truth. 20 1317 A decade ago you could see real 21 people on the CBC television. Where are they today? 22 Where are the real women, the women who have three 23 kids, work two jobs trying to make ends meet? The CBC 24 should not be our country's moral judge. With a 25 country so vast and divided by so much land, Canada StenoTran 318 1 needs the CBC to tie us together so we get to know our 2 neighbours, to learn the differences. Please don't 3 whitewash our fences. This means regional stories, 4 regional broadcasting, regional programming with 5 national broadcasting. 6 1318 Why does the CBC need a third radio 7 station for younger viewers? Do we not have enough 8 stations already? There are other ways to attract 9 younger audiences. Just show them who they are, not 10 who you want them to be. 11 1319 When you look at the shows that have 12 been successful for the CBC, they all have one thing in 13 common, they were about real people. The gloves were 14 off and the chips were down: Peter Gzowski, "North of 15 60", "Boys of St. Vincent", "Butter Box Babies", and 16 for that matter "Anne of Green Gables". 17 1320 Peter Gzowski was successful because 18 he interviewed real people. "North of 60" was 19 successful because it reflected real people. The 20 bigotry and the challenges of life were unabashed and 21 out there. "Boys of St. Vincent" was successful 22 because it was a piece of our history, naked, not make 23 believe. 24 1321 There is another reason why the CBC 25 is so terribly important to me and to our Canadian StenoTran 319 1 culture. As an executive director of a cultural 2 organization, it is increasingly difficult to promote 3 cultural events on television and radio due to 4 advertising costs. Without the help of the CBC, it 5 would be impossible to reach a wider audience so that 6 our organizations can become self-sufficient through 7 earned revenue, our bums in the seats as we like to 8 call it. The CBC produces and supports local artists 9 and arts' organizations. Without this support, it 10 would be very difficult, if not impossible, for most 11 not-for-profit organizations to reach a wider audience. 12 This service is a very, very vital part of what the CBC 13 has to offer as a public broadcaster, and I only hope 14 that this is maintained and maintained as part of your 15 mandate. 16 1322 However, I must say my biggest still 17 remains that the CBC reflects Canadians first. 18 Canadian sports, Canadian music, culture, news. When 19 you go to another country, don't you turn on the TV or 20 pick up a paper or listen to a radio station to take 21 interest in their culture? Of course you do. So 22 businessmen and tourists can come to Canada and see 23 Canadian culture on Canadian TV without censor or 24 apology. 25 1323 There doesn't appear to be a forward StenoTran 320 1 vision at the CBC or, if there is, it is not clear. To 2 fulfil a vision, you have to first realize where you 3 are and perhaps what these sessions are for. So I 4 would like to take this opportunity to thank the 5 committee for allowing me to speak this evening, 6 because I, too, am very passionate about being 7 Canadian, preserving our identity and nurturing our 8 culture for the future of all Canadians. 9 1324 I can only hope that in the near 10 future I will tune in to CBC once again and grab on a 11 television series to become an avid viewer; or see a 12 new show that tells me what I need to know, not what I 13 want to hear. But mostly I hope I see people that 14 reflect me, my neighbours, my neighbourhood I live in, 15 tell us the truth, we can handle it, we are 16 30-something. We are old enough to know when a story 17 is being whitewashed or someone is being moralistic on 18 our behalf. Tell me the truth and I will decide for 19 myself. If the CBC wants to be successful, reflect who 20 we are as Canadians, not who you want us to be and the 21 future will take care of itself. 22 1325 It is said that a mirror never lies. 23 When you look in a mirror, you might not like what you 24 see, or you might deny it all together, but if the 25 truth keeps staring you back in the face, chances are StenoTran 321 1 you will start to listen, you will start to look, you 2 will start to accept, change, to laugh at it and 3 finally to embrace it. 4 1326 I know, because after trying to shed 5 my Canadian roots I realized how much I have grown to 6 protect them, to embrace them and, yes, to laugh at 7 them. Reflect your country that you have been put here 8 to serve and your future will be self-perpetuating. To 9 me, that would be the greatest success. Thank you. 10 --- Applause / Applaudissements 11 1327 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 12 Planden. 13 1328 MS VOGEL: Our next presenter this 14 evening is Mike MacNaughton. 15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 16 1329 MS VOGEL: Is Mike MacNaughton in the 17 room? 18 1330 THE CHAIRPERSON: Apparently not. 19 1331 Are there any other presenters I 20 wonder, any other presenters who are here who have not 21 been called? 22 1332 Okay, we will take a 10 minute break 23 and be back at 9:00 o'clock. 24 --- Recess at 2050 / Suspension à 2050 25 --- Upon resuming at 2104 / Reprise à 2104 StenoTran 322 1 1333 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are ready to 2 resume. 3 1334 Madam Secretary? 4 1335 MS VOGEL: Thank you, Commissioner 5 Grauer. Our next presenter is Eugenia Torvick. 6 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 7 1336 MS EUGENIA TORVICK: Thank you very 8 much for letting me parachute in from the other room. 9 When I first arrived this evening, I had absolutely no 10 intention of speaking. I was coming to listen and -- 11 at least spent most of my time in the other room. So I 12 hope what I have to say hasn't been said more than 200 13 times already in the past. 14 1337 A lot had been said in the other room 15 about ourselves as Canadian citizens having to come to 16 the rescue of our CBC and I want to start out by saying 17 that I chose to become a Canadian citizen. Not a small 18 amount of that was with the help of the CBC. I felt 19 like I knew my country before it was my country. 20 1338 The first broadcast I ever heard in 21 Canada when I moved up here from New York was a CBC 22 broadcast. I can't remember the name but I remember 23 the actor in it. His name was Tommy Tweed, and it must 24 have been a lampoon of legislators or politicians 25 because its theme song went roughly like this. StenoTran 323 1 "Tra-la-la, tweedle dee, there is room for me still, as 2 an uncivil civil servant on Parliament Hill. Tra-la-la 3 tweedle H dee, there is a room for me now, as an 4 uncivil civil servant in Ottawa-wa-wa." 5 1339 Any way, I was taken from that moment 6 on. 7 1340 My profession, I was a musician, I 8 came to play in the Vancouver symphony, and that was 9 back in 1957, heaven help me, and in 1959 I was invited 10 to join the Vancouver Chamber Orchestra, CBC Vancouver 11 Chamber Orchestra, which was one of many, many CBC 12 orchestras at that time. 13 1341 Now, of course, it is the only one 14 left, and I am very proud to say that it is not located 15 in Toronto. It is located right here in Vancouver, our 16 only live orchestra. 17 1342 I feel of course that the CBC's 18 greatest tragedy has been its purposeful and indelicate 19 underfunding. It is just like taking a butcher knife 20 and hacking, frankly. I spend my time chasing 21 classical music around the radio dial and I know where 22 to find it on Radio Two and on then Radio One and then 23 at 1:00 o'clock in the morning on Radio Canada, and 24 what is happening of course is that the lack of funding 25 is resulting in such things as constantly repeating the StenoTran 324 1 same concerts over and over again. With every repeat 2 it means one fewer live broadcast offered, and I 3 understand that is again because of lack of funding. 4 1343 At one time, CBC's announcers were 5 the envy of all of English-speaking North America. 6 They used excellent English. They used to pronounce 7 foreign names such as those of composers and performers 8 perfectly. There was such a thing as a chief announcer 9 whose job it was to listen to the announcing staff and 10 to critique and for those who didn't do things right, 11 they found their names and their misdemeanours posted 12 on the announcers' bulletin board for all to read. Not 13 any more, unfortunately. Again, there is nobody to 14 correct some pretty awful announcing and pronouncing 15 going on. 16 1344 It is a very simple thing. We must 17 stop hacking away at the funding. We must restore the 18 funding or soon the CBC will be just the same as every 19 other station and Canada will have lost a very large 20 piece of its identity and, frankly, I didn't go to the 21 trouble of becoming Canadian only to see Canada become 22 indistinguishable from everywhere where else. 23 1345 And that is really all I want to say. 24 1346 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for 25 taking the time to come and say it. StenoTran 325 1 1347 MS VOGEL: I would like to invite 2 Ingo Breig to come and make his presentation. 3 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 4 1348 MR. INGO BREIG: Hello. I listen to 5 CBC radio a lot. I almost never watch television of 6 any kind. 7 1349 These CBC radio programs are 8 important to me: "Quirks and Quarks", "Writers and 9 Company", with Eleanor Wachtel, the "Transcontinental", 10 with Otto Lowy, "Basic Black", with Arthur Black, "The 11 Great Eastern", with Paul Moth, "Choral Concert" on CBC 12 Radio Two on Sunday mornings. 13 1350 Foremost is "Ideas", with Lister 14 Sinclair, David Cayley, Max Allen, I am a fanatic about 15 the show. I think it is a very important radio show. 16 It has no equal. 17 1351 On the other hand, if CBC television 18 vanished I probably wouldn't notice. CBC television 19 sells advertising time. This affects what they are 20 able to broadcast. The debacle with the Driver's Seat 21 television show a few years ago and the autosaurus ad 22 from the Media Foundation is an example of the lack of 23 independence that CBC television has. 24 1352 On the other hand, CBC radio, I 25 believe, is truly independent. It has quality, and StenoTran 326 1 independent thought. 2 1353 Finally, please do not allow the 3 government to appoint any positions in the CBC 4 anywhere. Thank you. 5 --- Applause / Applaudissements 6 1354 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 7 much. 8 1355 MS VOGEL: Is anyone in the room who 9 was scheduled to make a presentation and hasn't done so 10 yet? 11 1356 Then I will invite representatives 12 from the CBC to give some comments. 13 REPLY / RÉPLIQUE 14 1357 MS SUSAN ENGLEBERT: Good evening. 15 My name is Susan Englebert and I am the Regional 16 Director of Radio for British Columbia. I just want to 17 say once again, this will be my final say, -- 18 1358 THE CHAIRPERSON: Until tomorrow. 19 1359 MS SUSAN ENGLEBERT: No, no, that is 20 it for me. 21 1360 On behalf of my colleagues at CBC, 22 again, I would like to thank the Commission very much 23 for allowing us to be part of this consultation. 24 1361 I am always amazed when I listen to 25 people talking about the CBC and how articulate and StenoTran 327 1 thoughtful they are, both our viewers and listeners, 2 and yet again I think it was demonstrated tonight, as I 3 have said in the other sessions, we are listening very 4 carefully to everyone's comments and we are -- we will 5 be in touch with everybody who has appeared here. If 6 they have questions, things we can help them with, we 7 will try and do that and obviously we are working 8 towards the May hearings in Hull and it should be a 9 very interesting time for us. 10 1362 Again, I would like to thank you very 11 much. 12 1363 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms 13 Englebert. 14 1364 That concludes today's presentations. 15 I would like to take this opportunity to thank all the 16 people who have taken the time and come here today and 17 given very thoughtful presentations. All of these are 18 very helpful to us at the Commission and will inform 19 our decisions as we move through the May hearing and 20 then into our deliberations. 21 1365 So, it means a lot to us that people 22 take the time and trouble to come and give these 23 presentations. I would like to thank everybody. Thank 24 you very much. 25 1366 And I would like to thank our StenoTran 328 1 secretary, the staff, the transcriber, and our 2 electronic technicians. 3 1367 Thank you. 4 --- Whereupon the consultation concluded at 2115 / 5 Le consultation se termine à 2115 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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