ARCHIVED - Transcript / Transcription - Gatineau, Quebec - 2002-05-07
This page has been archived on the Web
Information identified as archived is provided for reference, research or recordkeeping purposes. It is not subject to the Government of Canada Web Standards and has not been altered or updated since it was archived. Please contact us to request a format other than those available.
Providing Content in Canada's Official Languages
Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.
In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES SUBJECT / SUJET: APPLICATIONS FOR TELEVISION LICENCE RENEWALS DEMANDES DE RENOUVELLEMENT DE LICENCES DE TÉLÉVISION HELD AT: TENUE À: Conference Centre Centre de Conférences Portage IV Portage IV Outaouais Room Salle Outaouais Gatineau, Quebec Gatineau (Québec) May 7, 2002 Le 7 mai 2002 Volume 2
Transcripts In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of Contents. However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the public hearing. Transcription Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience publique ainsi que la table des matières. Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des télécommunications canadiennes Transcript / Transcription APPLICATIONS FOR TELEVISION LICENCE RENEWALS DEMANDES DE RENOUVELLEMENT DE LICENCES DE TÉLÉVISION BEFORE / DEVANT: Charles Dalfen Chairperson / Président Andrée Wylie Commissioner / Conseillère Cindy Grauer Commissioner / Conseillère Andrew Cardozo Commissioner / Conseiller Stuart Langford Commissioner / Conseiller ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS: William Howard Legal Counsel / Leanne Bennett Conseillers juridiques Michael McWhinney Hearing Coordinator / Coordonnateur de l'audience Pierre LeBel Secretary / Secrétaire HELD AT: TENUE À: Conference Centre Centre de Conférences Portage IV Portage IV Outaouais Room Salle Outaouais Gatineau, Quebec Gatineau (Québec) May 7, 2002 Le 7 mai 2002 Volume 2
TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES PAGE / PARA PHASE I PRESENTATION BY CHUM LIMITED / 354 / 1957 PRÉSENTATION PAR CHUM LIMITÉE (CityTV/CKVU-TV) PRESENTATION BY CHUM LIMITED / 459 / 2596 PRÉSENTATION PAR CHUM LIMITÉE (NewNet) PHASE II INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR Directors Guild of Canada 551 / 3112 Canadian Film and TV Production Association 570 / 3222 Communications and Diversity Network 590 / 3339 G'Nadjiwon Ki Aboriginal Tourism Association 603 / 3421 London Public Library 612 / 3480 Pooja Narang 623 / 3539 Janice Laking 634 / 3602 Multicultural Council of Windsor & Essex County 643 / 3656 Association for Media Literacy 651 / 3709 Dan and Mary Lou Smoke 657 / 3748 Loretta Todd 666 / 3811 Distinct Features Inc. 671 / 3836 Windsor Regional Hospital and Grey Bruce Health Unit 678 / 3887 Popint AuYeung 692 / 3973
1 Gatineau, Québec / Gatineau (Québec) 2 --- Upon resuming on Tuesday, May 7, 2002 3 at 0930 / L'audience reprend le mardi 4 7 mai 2002 à 0930 5 1559 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. 6 1560 I believe Commissioner Cardozo was 7 questioning and will begin this morning. 8 1561 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Good morning. 9 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 10 1562 Welcome back this morning. I hope 11 you all enjoyed the hockey game last night. We in 12 Ottawa certainly did. We enjoyed watching Toronto play 13 for those two minutes at the end, like it was real 14 hockey. 15 --- Laughter / Rires 16 1563 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Stick around 17 for tomorrow. It will be more fun. 18 1564 I should tell you, while we are on 19 topic, how you look at local news. At 11 o'clock I was 20 flicking back and forth between CHRO and Citytv, and I 21 have to tell you CHRO got it right. 22 --- Laughter / Rires 23 1565 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: They were 24 upbeat. I think the rest is clear as to what I mean. 25 1566 It is a matter of capturing the mood.
1 Some people know how to and some just don't. 2 1567 Let me talk about closed captioning. 3 In terms of the smaller stations, talking about Wingham 4 and Wheatley, I want to be clear whether you are okay 5 with conditions of licence there. 6 1568 As you know for the others, I guess 7 with CTV, which has a number of smaller stations, what 8 we said was that their condition of licence would kick 9 in in year three; that is, 90 per cent of all 10 programming during the broadcast day and 100 per cent 11 of news, given that this too is a rebroad of London. 12 1569 MR. MILLER: It isn't a rebroad of 13 London. It has distinct and separate local news. So 14 the captioning involves additional costs. I guess our 15 nervousness with these stations is we are looking at a 16 more difficult future for them. 17 1570 While the tens and hundreds of 18 thousands of dollars we are talking about might not 19 seem a lot to you, they mean a lot to those stations. 20 They are people and people's jobs. 21 1571 With respect to the other matter, 22 perhaps I can come back to you and reply on that, 23 because I think we need to caucus on that. 24 1572 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: All right. 25 1573 I would like to ask you a more
1 general question about closed captioning, and that is 2 about the quality. 3 1574 As you know, I think that, overall, 4 closed captioning is really a success story for the 5 industry and the Commission who, over the last decade, 6 have been working together to advance this. On the 7 English-language side we have made tremendous progress 8 and are really there in terms of the 90 per cent of all 9 programming and 100 per cent of news for most 10 broadcasters. So it is a wonderful success story. 11 1575 The remaining part is the issue of 12 quality. If there is one complaint that we hear from 13 people who are concerned about it, it is quality, not 14 all the time but at certain times, perhaps mostly with 15 live programming and news. 16 1576 What are your thoughts about how that 17 is coming along? 18 1577 MS CRAWFORD: We have a number of 19 thoughts. I will speak first about how we handle it at 20 CHUM City in our building and throughout our system. 21 1578 As you probably know, we created an 22 in-house captioning department in 1995. Every year 23 since that time we have met both formally and 24 informally with captioning consumers, people from the 25 deaf and hard of hearing communities, to make sure that
1 we are giving them what they need in terms of 2 captioning service and that we are meeting their 3 standards. 4 1579 We have been particularly diligent 5 about it. We have been recognized by captioning 6 consumers with numerous awards for it. We pride 7 ourselves on having developed a great in-house model. 8 1580 So to answer your question directly, 9 the feedback we have had has been tremendously helpful 10 in refining our systems in terms of our own in-house 11 operational manual and protocol for captioning. We 12 have a very high captioning consumer positive response 13 and virtually no complaints on that. 14 1581 In terms of what we are doing in the 15 industry, as you may know, the CAB voluntarily 16 undertook to create an English language closed 17 captioning manual for standards and practices. I am 18 happy to say that both in my role as Chair of the Joint 19 Societal Issues Committee at the CAB and also in terms 20 of our own captioning managing in-house at CHUM City, 21 we really led the group that worked on the manual. 22 1582 It is complete now. The manual is 23 developed with input from not only people on the JSIC 24 but also from deaf and hard of hearing captioning 25 providers and other experts.
1 1583 We did undertake community 2 consultations nationally to get feedback on the manual. 3 The manual is now in the editing process. It is in the 4 very final stage and will be made available to all 5 English language broadcasters in the country, and of 6 course shared with French language counterparts. 7 1584 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: What is it in 8 the manual that deals with the issue of quality? What 9 is the key to success? 10 1585 MS CRAWFORD: It is really an effort 11 to standardize, if you will, or formalize the protocol 12 for different captioning systems. There is a huge 13 variation about how certain third party captioners and 14 even in-house captioning departments treat certain 15 items. 16 1586 This manual is an attempt to address 17 concerns by captioning consumers who sometimes get 18 confused when they see different style usages, if you 19 will, in terms of captioning on their screen. This 20 manual is an attempt to address the confusion in the 21 captioning community and give people a more consistent 22 level of service and standard and usage on-screen. 23 1587 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Some of the 24 stuff on the quality issues, stuff is typed in "sounds 25 like what was said", somewhat like a game charades.
1 You have to be playing a game of charades with what you 2 hear sometimes, because when it is going fast I guess 3 the person who is transcribing has to move pretty fast. 4 They may throw up stuff that just sounds like what was 5 said but wasn't. 6 1588 MS CRAWFORD: Absolutely. And 7 especially in the area of live captioning, it is 8 extremely important to make sure that you are using a 9 captioning provider; or if you are doing it in-house, 10 that you have a highly trained, highly skilled 11 individual. 12 1589 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So how you 13 train is a key part of that. 14 1590 MS CRAWFORD: How you train is a key 15 part. We at CHUM have a third party company who is 16 recognized as being at the very highest level of 17 excellence within the industry, who handles all of our 18 live captioning. We are very proud of that. 19 1591 This person and her company undertake 20 to make sure that all of our people are very highly 21 trained. 22 1592 In the case of certain programs that 23 are live, when there is the opportunity to provide, say 24 in the example of a music program, song lyrics in 25 advance so that they can properly research the given
1 vernacular of pop music genre so that in advance, when 2 they are doing the live captioning, they are prepared 3 with all of the background information, that kind of 4 thing ensures that you are getting the highest level of 5 accuracy on screen. 6 1593 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I had a couple 7 of questions about relationship with the community in 8 consultation, but you have answered that. Thank you 9 for providing that information. 10 1594 I have one more question on closed 11 captioning, which is the cost implications. 12 1595 Is it your sense, or do you know, 13 whether closed captioning costs you more? Is it a cost 14 item, given that you can get sponsorships? 15 1596 MS CRAWFORD: We do undertake to sell 16 closed captioning sponsorships. It does not currently 17 cover our costs, say, for Citytv. 18 1597 If you want more detail on that, I 19 believe Mr. Kirkwood can elaborate on that, if you 20 like. 21 1598 MR. MILLER: Maybe I can also jump 22 in. 23 1599 I think this conversation is also 24 more relevant, actually, to the debate on descriptive 25 video. We heard the testimony given to you in Calgary
1 at the hearing a month ago, where it was suggested that 2 sponsorship will suddenly cover the cost of descriptive 3 video. 4 1600 For that, it is certainly not the 5 case. Indeed, the costs that we will incur, that 6 producers will incur in describing dramatic programming 7 that we commission, will be reflected in the higher 8 licence fees that we pay. 9 1601 That is so because on the closed 10 captioning side, as Sarah points out, we don't cover 11 our costs. 12 1602 Obviously, if you have top 20 shows, 13 that extra inventory essentially that a sponsorship 14 gives you can be sold, because you are always maxed on 15 your 12-minute advertising limit. So that is another 16 thing you can sell on a top show. 17 1603 But for the vast majority of our 18 schedule, we are not so fortunate as to be sold out on 19 all of our inventory, certainly not all of the time. 20 That sponsorship revenue may well replace other 21 revenue. 22 1604 Even if it did net out net-net, the 23 incrementality of that revenue is in question. 24 1605 I don't know, David, if we have any 25 estimate of how much of the cost we can cover, but I
1 know that we don't cover the entire cost. 2 1606 MR. KIRKWOOD: I don't know if you 3 want the actual numbers. But from what I understand, 4 it doesn't come up to the actual cost of the closed 5 captioning. 6 1607 The closed captioning, too, for 7 programs -- and I hate to sound like a broken record 8 about the people at the top 10, 20 programming, but for 9 a provider of programs like "West Wing" or "ER", the 10 extra inventory there is extremely valuable. It is a 11 godsend. There is a lot of pressure on that inventory 12 for them, and this provides another revenue outlet. 13 1608 We don't have programs of that 14 stature, and understandably a billboard on a program of 15 that size commanding that cost per 30 is going to be a 16 better return on the investment. 17 1609 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So you will 18 charge different rates for sponsorships of the program 19 to -- 20 1610 MR. KIRKWOOD: It would depend on the 21 audience delivery of the program. 22 1611 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can I move to 23 ethnic programming, and that is primarily the third 24 language programming. 25 1612 With regard to the programming you do
1 on Citytv, is that brokered? What is the arrangement? 2 1613 It is largely provided by CHIN, I 3 understand. 4 1614 MR. MILLER: The current arrangement 5 -- and it has been this way for many years -- is that 6 it is a brokered arrangement. 7 1615 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Tell me what 8 you are currently doing with ethnic programming across 9 your system and what your plans are as you go ahead. 10 1616 You talked in a supplementary brief 11 that you might be doing some ethnic programming in 12 Ottawa, given that CHIN now has a licence here. 13 1617 Give me a picture of your overall 14 planning on the system. 15 1618 MR. MILLER: The overall corporate 16 perspective is each market is different, and each 17 general manager and their team make the decisions as to 18 what is most appropriate in their market. 19 1619 I think that question is definitely a 20 question you should pose to the VU team and the RO 21 team. They are the ones that currently have plans to 22 do ethnic programming or multicultural programming. 23 1620 That is a decision that they make, 24 certainly with our encouragement and when opportunities 25 arise.
1 1621 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: When you talk 2 about the relationship with CHIN expanding, you were 3 talking about it expanding on City or expanding on 4 CHRO? 5 1622 MR. MILLER: On The NewRO, yes. 6 1623 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you consult 7 with community groups from time to time on the ethnic 8 programming to get a sense of how you are responding to 9 the needs? 10 1624 MS CRAWFORD: In terms of feedback on 11 the ethnic programming, that is definitely something 12 that our partners at CHIN would undertake to do. 13 1625 Generally speaking, in terms of 14 consultation with our community, we are extremely 15 involved and aggressive about doing that, and we are 16 consulting our community in a number of ways, both at 17 the local station level and of course nationally, both 18 formally and informally. 19 1626 One of the main mechanisms we 20 recently had to solicit feedback from communities in 21 terms of providing service for them, both in third 22 language and ethnic programming in the English 23 language, to build bridges between communities and 24 serve second and third generation Canadians, was in the 25 form of, as an example, the consultation we did
1 nationally with groups when we developed our Best 2 Practices statement. 3 1627 We made sure that we, in writing, 4 consulted with stakeholders across the country to seek 5 input on that document when it was in draft form. 6 1628 Additionally, when we convened in 7 Victoria our Colloquium on Cultural Diversity in the 8 Media, both print and electronic, we endeavoured to set 9 up a nine-person steering committee who again sought 10 comment from their local communities and regions in 11 putting together what the shape of the discussion would 12 be in Victoria. 13 1629 As you know, that was a five-hour 14 live telethon that again encouraged feedback from all 15 Canadians live on the air by telephone, e-mail, fax, 16 what have you. 17 1630 There were outcomes from the 18 Colloquium, and we would be happy to talk more with you 19 about those. Many of them have been incorporated into 20 our programming plans going forward, both nationally 21 and locally; also into the creation of our corporate 22 plan on cultural diversity. 23 1631 Those are just a few initiatives. 24 1632 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Ms Crawford, 25 you are reading my mind ahead of time. I have those
1 exact questions. They are coming up. 2 1633 Let me just focus on ethnic 3 programming for a second. 4 1634 The part that is presently, I take 5 it, mostly third language, run on Saturday and Sunday 6 mornings on City, do you see that evolving over time or 7 changing, either to be a bit of English or in any other 8 way? 9 1635 MS CRAWFORD: I think we are always 10 open to evolution. I think ultimately it is a 11 programmer question. We can share some thoughts with 12 you about the developing that we are doing, for 13 example, at CKVU in Vancouver, where we are definitely 14 moving forward with some very exciting initiatives in 15 that area. 16 1636 Prem Gill would be pleased to tell 17 you more about those. 18 1637 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Sure. 19 1638 MS GILL: We spent a lot of time 20 thinking about what we are going to be doing in 21 Vancouver with our multicultural programming. Having 22 grown up in Vancouver and having talked to my peers and 23 with CHUM, and having met with community groups over 24 the last few years, the dominant issue that keeps 25 coming up is that we want to see programming about
1 ourselves, made by us, in the English language. 2 1639 Part of that is what Sarah was 3 talking about. It is not just building bridges between 4 communities but also within communities, because so 5 many micro communities exist within communities. It is 6 also having the opportunity to tell our stories in 7 English, because this is the language that a lot of 8 second and third generation people are comfortable 9 with. 10 1640 Also, as we are telling those 11 stories, not just in the dramatic form but in our 12 programming, when it is appropriate, if we want to 13 speak in our third language, we could do that. 14 Sometimes you can't describe something in English. 15 1641 We are taking all of these things 16 into consideration and developing programming that is 17 going to be -- what I have been thinking lately is that 18 it is kind of the middle step now. We started with 19 multicultural programming in Canada where it was in 20 third languages, what CHIN has been doing on Citytv and 21 what the multicultural channel provided in Vancouver. 22 1642 I still think there is a need to do 23 that kind of programming, but there is kind of this 24 next level where there are people who say: Okay, I am 25 Canadian. Most of the programming on television, a lot
1 of it, whether it is ethnic or not, appeals to me. 2 1643 But now we are at the point where we 3 want to make that jump into developing our skills as 4 producers, as writers, as directors and as viewers; 5 seeing ourselves in that next phase before it all 6 balances out. 7 1644 I think this is the opportunity for 8 us at CKVU to start something new in multicultural 9 programming in Canada. 10 1645 MR. MILLER: Perhaps I could add 11 something, Mr. Cardozo. 12 1646 I think this is an area where we see 13 ourselves making a mark, at first in Vancouver, but 14 then more nationally. It is a consistent theme that 15 has come up, both in the formal and informal 16 consultations that we have had. 17 1647 I just had a look at our summary of 18 recommendations from the Colloquium. Number 7 of nine 19 recommendations was this notion of increased 20 programming for and about visible minority youth that 21 reflects their fluid multiple identities. 22 1648 It is this concept, that you are well 23 aware of, of the multiple identities of ethnic youth. 24 They are proudly Canadian. They watch MuchMusic, but 25 they also have their ethnic roots. That is another
1 very significant part of their identity. 2 1649 I just want to echo that it is a good 3 example of how, through consultation, both formal and 4 informal, through bringing into our organization people 5 like Prem, we learn not only how to do things 6 differently at the local level but ultimately we hope 7 nationally, as well. 8 1650 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: On the 9 question of nationally, once you are getting this kind 10 of feedback in Vancouver -- and you probably would get 11 similar stuff in Toronto, I imagine. 12 1651 What I hear you saying is that you 13 are not looking at any changes to your Toronto ethnic 14 programming at this point. 15 1652 Do you see that happening? 16 1653 MR. MILLER: Again, it is an evolving 17 process. The beauty of Prem taking the lead in 18 Vancouver is that what we learned there -- and if it 19 works -- we can bring perhaps the programming concepts 20 to our other stations. 21 1654 Having worked with Lenny and his team 22 at CHIN, we know they are very open to new ideas, as 23 well. So whether that is the focus of our Ottawa 24 programming or whether ultimately our Toronto 25 programming starts to change, that is something that we
1 are definitely going to look at. Nothing is entrenched 2 in stone. 3 1655 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: On aboriginal 4 programming in the system, what would you consider to 5 be aboriginal programming? Do you do any? 6 1656 MR. MILLER: We have a number of 7 examples. Again, I am going to ask you to ask our 8 specific managers on that, because you will see at a 9 number of our stations they make this a particular 10 priority. 11 1657 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So there are 12 individual programs? 13 1658 MR. ZNAIMER: Specifically, at the 14 New VI we have started a program called "The New 15 Canoe". 16 1659 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Called...? 17 1660 MR. ZNAIMER: "The New Canoe", which 18 is specifically targeted to and about; and because it 19 is about, it is also of interest to the larger 20 community. But it is focused on First Nations. 21 1661 MR. MILLER: There are specific 22 examples, Commissioner, elsewhere in our system. Those 23 programs are part of a more integrated approach to our 24 relationship with and reflecting that community. 25 1662 I know that program producers and
1 managers would be happy to talk to you about specifics. 2 1663 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me move to 3 the issue of reflecting cultural diversity throughout 4 your programming schedule, in the English language part 5 of your schedule. 6 1664 I will start with a fairly general 7 question for either Mr. Znaimer or anybody else. 8 1665 You started this 32 years ago. We at 9 the Commission have become much more concerned about it 10 in the last two or three. There are certain things we 11 have done in the past around employment equity, ethnic 12 programming, reflection on screen. Certainly in the 13 last two or three years we have begun to take a more 14 comprehensive approach to it. 15 1666 Tell me what your thoughts were back 16 32 years ago as to why you felt the need to reflect the 17 multicultural diversity of Toronto then and how it has 18 changed until today. 19 1667 Is it the same imperative? Is it the 20 same reasons? Is it the same thing that you are trying 21 to do or achieve? 22 1668 MR. ZNAIMER: It began with me in a 23 very personal way. As I approach my work with the 24 touch of the artist, I am not shy about expressing my 25 personal experience. I think writers and people who
1 work in the various expressive crafts frequently mine 2 their own experience as a touchstone for the validity 3 of those thoughts. 4 1669 As an immigrant myself and as, at 5 that time, a recent arrival to Toronto, I could see 6 that what I was, who I was and all the others like me 7 who I knew were not reflected in mainstream television. 8 1670 So it struck me at the time that it 9 was important to do the right thing. In addition to 10 that, it was my hunch that the right thing would be a 11 smart thing, because one could see which way the wave 12 was going and growing. So that is how it began. 13 1671 It was also a striking point of 14 differentiation between us and the look and feel of 15 mainstream television. 16 1672 I also had the additional inspiration 17 that what began as third language service would drive 18 our television station into the homes of families who 19 in turn would have children who would become mainstream 20 Canucks, much like myself, but who would have had the 21 imprint of Citytv because of its particular service to 22 their parents and to their grandparents. 23 1673 So it was a complex of those ideas, 24 those inspirations. And one ought not disregard also a 25 strong moral element in it, in that I was certain it
1 was, as I said, the right thing to do. 2 1674 As it has evolved, I think Prem is an 3 expression of where this reality is going. Where it is 4 going is that we must now conceive of how to evolve 5 these programs, which have a certain functionality in 6 third languages; how to evolve that into an expression 7 of a new style of Canadianness. That begins in making 8 programs for us, by us, as Prem put it, but in the 9 language of Canada, or one of the languages of Canada. 10 1675 But it can extend further, I would 11 hope eventually to see mainstream entertainment where 12 minority people serve as the hero figures rather than 13 the peripheral figures. 14 1676 I was visited recently by an 15 extremely charming and dynamic young man who lives his 16 life in a wheelchair after a dramatic sporting 17 accident. He was on a mission. He had some research 18 money, and he was looking for some thoughts about how 19 to expand the public's mind about the capability of 20 people in that situation. 21 1677 I said to him, only half in jest -- 22 in fact, not in jest at all. I said we do our bit at 23 Citytv by having people in a wheelchair report on 24 everyday occurrences as part of the news. We have an 25 extraordinary fellow, David Onley, who has been
1 everything from our space and new science specialist; 2 today he has a particular interest in education. The 3 whole point was to offer him up to the public in the 4 most natural way. 5 1678 I said if you really want to go one 6 step further, let's try and marshall some money and 7 create an action adventure series in which the hero is 8 someone with that kind of "handicap" -- and I put that 9 in quotations -- but that hero gets the girl and makes 10 away with the money. That's the way to do it. 11 1679 What we do in our formal lives is 12 rather targeted, I would think, to older people. What 13 entertainment can do is enter the reality of younger 14 people. 15 1680 MS CRAWFORD: I would like to add 16 something, getting back to part of your question. 17 1681 Citytv, reflecting its community back 18 in the 1970s, had a different reflection job to do. 19 The composition of Toronto is different and has evolved 20 over the years. As it has evolved, so too has City. 21 1682 Initially when City went to air, some 22 of the then underrepresented groups of people who we 23 thought it was job one to put on the air, people like 24 our still current anchor Ann Mroczkowski -- at the 25 time, to put a Polish woman with that kind of a name,
1 with multi letters and syllables, on the air was a 2 somewhat radical thing to do on television, even in the 3 city of Toronto. 4 1683 So over the years the reflection job 5 has become a different kind of complexity. We are 6 responding to that. We are definitely cognizant and 7 sensitive to how the complexion of the audiences 8 change, and we have evolved as the City. That is the 9 heart of what a Citytv is all about in terms of being a 10 real accurate reflection of the community. 11 1684 As Commissioner Grauer I think talked 12 about yesterday, the CRTC considers its shareholders to 13 be the Canadian public. So, too, do we. Our job as a 14 broadcaster has all kinds of public responsibility that 15 comes with it, and the reflection issue is one that we 16 have always thought about and implemented every day at 17 City, and we are continuing to do it as we expand. 18 1685 MS GILL: I would like to add an 19 example of having grown up and lived in Vancouver my 20 whole life. I didn't have a Citytv and I didn't even 21 see those underrepresented groups often on television. 22 In Vancouver we mostly had news programming. There has 23 not been a lot of other local programming over the 24 years. 25 1686 One of the things that came out of
1 our Colloquium last year is that there are a lot of 2 people like me out there, but we are still not seeing 3 the opportunity. So at CKVU -- and we will talk more 4 about this in our station presentation -- we are 5 implementing scholarship programs with the local post 6 secondary institutions targeted specifically at visible 7 minority and aboriginal people so that we can all help 8 each other come up through the systems and mentor each 9 other. 10 1687 There is no base in Vancouver. I 11 have not been able to find it. So we are doing our 12 part. 13 1688 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I am 14 wondering, if you look at world events and the last 15 couple of weeks, if you look at Europe both in France 16 in the last day or so and in Holland, where 17 anti-immigrant sentiments are receiving wide 18 consideration, having major political implications. 19 1689 Is it facile to say that reflecting 20 diversity on television blunts that anti-immigrant 21 sense? Does it mainstream people? Does it do 22 something that makes us a more successful society so 23 far compared to some of those others? 24 1690 MR. ZNAIMER: No, it's not facile at 25 all. It drives to the heart of the matter. If
1 television is indeed the most powerful medium on the 2 face of the earth -- and, incidentally, it is -- then 3 it ought to be the vehicle for communicating the 4 richness that emerges when you get this new kind of 5 blend emerging in a society. 6 1691 It is no accident that Canada is seen 7 as by far the leader in this inevitable movement of 8 world culture and world population. 9 1692 We have an annual conference called 10 Idea City, and one of the speakers that I have booked 11 is a fascinating writer called Pico Iyer. He is man of 12 complex origins, as you might divine by his name. But 13 he has identified Canada as the quintessential post 14 modern 21st Century society for precisely this reason 15 and has written very persuasively about it in an 16 interesting book. 17 1693 So I think you are entirely right, 18 Commissioner, to look to television to help society 19 come along. 20 1694 MS CRAWFORD: Commissioner, I am 21 compelled to jump in and share with you a quote that 22 Moses recently made in a speech where he received an 23 award for the advancement of minorities in the 24 entertainment industry from The Real Black Awards, 25 which are designed to recognize and acknowledge the
1 work of black filmmakers, because it is right on point 2 to your question. 3 1695 He said in that speech: 4 "What we say and do in TV, film, 5 music and new media matters. 6 Inclusiveness doesn't just 7 happen. Where it used to take 8 millennia or centuries for one 9 race or culture to meet and 10 accommodate and mesh into 11 others, globalized digitized 12 media can and do spread lasting 13 images, positive and negative, 14 in a matter of seconds. 15 All of us at City and CHUM..." 16 1696 This is the last sentence. 17 "...will continue to do the 18 small thing, the obvious thing, 19 the right thing. And I think if 20 we all did that diligently day 21 by day, Toronto and Canada and 22 the world would soon become a 23 better place." 24 1697 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you. 25 1698 Goodness, Moses, you are as quotable
1 in your speeches as you are live here in presence -- 2 although you gave them a better quote than you gave us. 3 --- Laughter / Rires 4 1699 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I am glad your 5 colleague brought it to our attention. 6 1700 I don't mean to undermine that. I 7 appreciate what you said. 8 1701 Let me ask you about the national 9 Colloquium. 10 1702 Mr. Miller mentioned there are nine 11 recommendations. I wonder if you could table those 12 with us, in the interests of time. 13 1703 Give me a sense of one or two things 14 that you might have followed up on within CHUM since 15 the Colloquium. 16 1704 MS CRAWFORD: We can get into it now 17 or with the CKVU panel, but there are a number of areas 18 where specifically at CKVU -- and at The New VI, for 19 that matter, although they are not up for renewal at 20 this particular hearing -- 21 1705 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I am talking 22 more system-wide. 23 1706 MS CRAWFORD: System-wide, I would 24 say we responded to the request for monitoring and 25 measurement internally, for corporate accountability.
1 We have been doing what we do quite successfully, very 2 successfully, at CHUM through all of our stations. But 3 we even realized the value, as we expand, in taking a 4 more formalized look internally at how we achieve our 5 diversity objectives and goals. 6 1707 It is one thing to have created new 7 stations and grown in programming and take on new staff 8 at 299 Queen Street West, because it literally is a 9 part of the operational and business and social culture 10 every day at that station. But as our company grows 11 and expands, it does help us to have the ideas and 12 philosophy and practices codified. 13 1708 That is, as you know, why we created 14 the Best Practices. 15 1709 So having a Colloquium that 16 identifies areas for us to really implement and codify 17 as we expand, and now through the corporate plan, is 18 tremendously helpful. Of course, that kind of 19 community feedback is going to be integral to what we 20 do going forward. 21 1710 We recently at Citytv, for example, 22 held a community consultation. Some of the very same 23 observations have come through at the community level 24 as at the national level. 25 1711 Again, at CKVU Prem can talk about
1 how we have directly implemented some of the 2 recommendations. 3 1712 MR. MILLER: If I could very quickly 4 go through this, we have it right here. 5 1713 The Colloquium wasn't designed to 6 make formal recommendations, as you know. But as we 7 sat down and tried to distil it all, we came up with 8 the nine. We actually filed them with you back when we 9 filed our supplementary brief for the CKVU transaction. 10 1714 Of the nine, the first four dealt 11 with issues that, as Sarah says, have been part of our 12 corporate movements and are entrenched now in the 13 formal corporate plan that we filed with you Friday. 14 1715 Another four were very specific 15 recommendations dealing with co-production, with 16 aboriginal and ethnic broadcasters, access for minority 17 filmmakers to funding, the issue that I mentioned 18 before on programming for and about visible minority 19 youth, and also the one that Prem has spoken about, 20 training, mentorship and scholarship programs. 21 1716 So those we first implemented at the 22 VU level and again are taking national, particularly 23 with some of the stuff we are speaking with Diane and 24 her team about. 25 1717 Finally, the last one was the
1 baseline research recommendation, which you will recall 2 was initially part of our VU benefits package proposal 3 but now is being picked up by the industry, based on 4 your urging of the CAB and CTV and Global. So we are 5 now part of that as part of the broader CAB initiative. 6 1718 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you. 7 1719 On the plan that you filed on Friday, 8 obviously we have not had a lot of time to go through 9 it, and certainly we as a Panel have not had a chance 10 to talk about it. So what I will do is just raise a 11 few quick issues. 12 1720 This will be part of the 13 documentation that is out there for people to give us 14 feedback within ten days, if they choose. And we will 15 get back to you either at some time in between or at 16 the decision itself. 17 1721 Let me just raise a few things. 18 1722 There are a few things that I thought 19 were not there, and maybe you can tell me if they are: 20 time lines, as to when things would be happening; you 21 talked about targets at various points, and it wasn't 22 clear where the targets would be or how they would be 23 developed; and sort of evaluation of progress or 24 benchmarks. 25 1723 MS CRAWFORD: First of all, I will
1 begin by -- I'm sorry, were you finished, Commissioner? 2 1724 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes. 3 1725 MS CRAWFORD: I will begin by saying 4 it is a draft plan. We felt it was important to submit 5 the general thinking and directions that we were going 6 in. So it will be refined, both because we have more 7 areas to put in but also we will be interested in 8 hearing the feedback. 9 1726 In respect to the time lines issue, 10 it is our position, without wanting to appear to be 11 resting on our laurels or to be accepting of the status 12 quo, that in almost all of these areas we are there; 13 that we are successfully walking the walk of the talk 14 that we talk. 15 1727 We think we are reflective. We think 16 in each of the areas we have identified that 17 correspond, as you will see, to our articles in the 18 Best Practices that cover all of our operational areas, 19 be it programming or hiring or mentorship or media 20 literacy, we think we are there. 21 1728 So the implicit time line is it is a 22 daily expectation to meet and exceed the reflection of 23 our community in all the areas. 24 1729 We do have an understanding of the 25 composition of our communities. We do have an
1 understanding of the specific needs and requests from 2 our communities. We believe we have implemented those. 3 1730 Do we grow as a station in everything 4 that we do every day? Of course. Will we grow and 5 implement new ideas, new creative ideas? Of course. 6 1731 You will see throughout the corporate 7 plan that there are some very specific new initiatives 8 to move forward the same philosophy that has always 9 been in place but just in new and continuing ways. 10 1732 I alluded to it before; that as we 11 grow, one of our jobs is to ensure the daily vigilance; 12 to not lose that initial seed of commitment and 13 inspiration, quite frankly, that build our station -- 14 our station being Citytv. 15 1733 So those are the time lines. 16 1734 In terms of the targets, again it is 17 implicit. On an annual basis, we talk specifically in 18 the plan about formal internal audits that station 19 general managers will conduct on a yearly basis, formal 20 reports that they in turn will make to the President of 21 CHUM Television, formalize meetings that I, as the 22 senior executive for cultural diversity corporately, 23 will have. 24 1735 Again, the notion there is that in 25 terms of targets on an annual basis, everyone needs to
1 meet the general target of true reflection in all of 2 the operational areas. That is the target. 3 1736 Measurement for progress, again on an 4 annual basis this will be something that is scrutinized 5 both informally, of course, and certainly formally. 6 1737 I think that is also one of the new 7 commitments that we have articulated in the plan; that 8 not only will there be the internal audit, not only 9 will there be the informal community consultations, in 10 addition to the formal, not only will there be the 11 formal reporting at each station by each station 12 manager or divisional head to our President, there will 13 also be an annual general meeting of general managers 14 where cultural diversity will now be a key component to 15 that discussion and a key expectation as a deliverable 16 within our company. 17 1738 It has always been there, but we are 18 just formalizing a little bit more. 19 1739 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks for 20 that. 21 1740 Just to underline, as I think you 22 understand, our approach is really to say to 23 broadcasters: Figure this thing out the way it is most 24 appropriate for you. So we don't have a template that 25 says these are the exact steps you have to take. We
1 have a list of basic areas that we think are important. 2 1741 Certainly if you are there, that's 3 fine. And across the system each broadcaster is at 4 different stage of this development. 5 1742 MS CRAWFORD: I will just add one new 6 initiative, Commissioner, that in fact will be added to 7 the draft -- and it is one we have alluded to. 8 1743 In the area of reflection, I think 9 one of the new things that we are cognizant of, 10 especially at the national level in Canada, is that the 11 research shows that two-thirds of the visible minority 12 population in Canada is under the age of 34. 13 1744 So we have definitely at CHUM, and 14 because of the kind of programming that we do, made it 15 a focus to make sure that we are delivering the needs 16 and serving the needs of visible minority youth. 17 1745 Certainly one of Prem's roles is a 18 corporate responsibility to both consult and assist at 19 the corporate level, with a particular focus on serving 20 youth. We think that that in terms of a national 21 reflection -- because of course in our specialty 22 services a national broadcaster is of key importance. 23 1746 MR. MILLER: Perhaps I could add two 24 short observations. 25 1747 I think what is key is that we
1 recognize there, as in we are there, is a moving 2 target. "There" changes year by year. So "there", for 3 us, is not a static thing; it is an evolving thing. 4 1748 Second, I think even we -- and I can 5 honestly say this, I think, Sarah -- were pleasantly 6 surprised about the benefits of writing this stuff 7 down, the benefits of taking our principles and coming 8 up with the Best Practices and we hope the benefits of 9 coming up with this plan, because then there is a 10 document that does inspire us, that does make us 11 reflect. 12 1749 The benefits of process and paper 13 can't be understated so that when we get together, 14 either formally or informally, we are more cognizant of 15 it. We are challenged to do more. 16 1750 I know in talking to Diane in terms 17 of her relations with independent producers, she has 18 always been cognizant of it. I know she is more 19 cognizant of it now. 20 1751 Just to echo what has been said, we 21 are by no means sitting on our laurels. "There" is a 22 moving target, and we continue to evolve and do it 23 better day by day, year by year. 24 1752 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you. It 25 is an interesting comment you made in terms of the
1 demographics on visible minority youth. I had not 2 heard that before. 3 1753 It is a similar, if not more, pointed 4 demographic with the aboriginal population, where there 5 is a larger young population which means a rapidly 6 growing population there, too. 7 1754 Let me ask you a few specific 8 questions. 9 1755 On page 7 you talked about original 10 local programming that reflects our diverse 11 communities. 12 1756 If this is a major area where 13 cultural diversity stuff will happen, then does it 14 follow that your possible plans of reduced local 15 programming will mean less programming that will 16 reflect diversity? 17 1757 MR. MILLER: We thought about this a 18 little bit last night. 19 1758 I think one of our strengths has 20 always been serving niches, as Moses has tried to drive 21 out of me the use of the term "conventional". We try 22 never to refer to ourselves as conventional 23 broadcasters. We are terrestrial, over the air 24 broadcasters, but we have never been conventional. 25 1759 We have always served niches, be they
1 geographic communities or niche communities of interest 2 across the country. 3 1760 The point about diversity is you can 4 reflect it on the local geographic basis, but you can 5 also reflect it on the community of interest basis. 6 1761 For example, even if we were to 7 reduce some of the local programming on some of our 8 stations in Ontario, perhaps Prem comes up with a real 9 hit that hits multicultural youth. Yes, it is produced 10 in Vancouver, but it is something that we take 11 national. 12 1762 While the mix of 13 regional/local/national may change, the commitment to 14 diversity, the commitment to reflection will not. 15 1763 MS CRAWFORD: Additionally, 16 Commissioner, as you know, the reflection of diversity 17 -- in this case, racial and cultural diversity -- does 18 not occur just within the half-hour or hour-long 19 programming blocks. 20 1764 It is a key component -- and I think 21 we have reflected this in the corporate plan as well -- 22 of our interstitial -- 23 1765 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I understand 24 that. I am just referring to the section on that page. 25 1766 On the next page, page 8, the
1 cultural diversity databank of experts: Just to 2 clarify, this is something that will be available to 3 all media. It is more than an in-house tool? 4 1767 MS CRAWFORD: Absolutely. 5 1768 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Later on on 6 that page there is a question: Should we include in 7 the appendix -- 8 1769 MS CRAWFORD: That was to prove it 9 was a draft document. 10 1770 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I am not sure 11 whether that question was internal or for me. But my 12 answer is "yes". 13 --- Laughter / Rires 14 1771 MS CRAWFORD: That was in fact in 15 error, as an internal comment. A colleague of mine 16 said this will turn out to work in our favour, because 17 the list of our accomplishments in this area is so 18 long, I actually didn't include it because I thought it 19 would look a little promotional. 20 1772 But I am delighted that you would 21 like to see it. 22 1773 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In favour is 23 okay. You are supposed to sell yourselves at these 24 hearings -- not that you haven't been doing it so far. 25 1774 I have a couple of questions on page
1 9. 2 1775 At the bottom half of the page you 3 talked about what I would call outreach, which is 4 basically when you are doing program commissioning and 5 acquisitioning -- and you talk about it on page 7, as 6 well, independent producers. What you will be doing is 7 talking to them about your commitments to cultural 8 diversity; so when you are out there talking to new 9 producers, potential producers, producers you are 10 already using. 11 1776 Give me a sense of how that would 12 work and what would happen if either you are not 13 getting stuff that reflects diversity or some of your 14 true and tried producers are not reflecting diversity. 15 1777 What would you do? 16 1778 MS CRAWFORD: I am going to ask Diane 17 Boehme to talk about this at her level, and then also 18 independently our local development officers will talk 19 about it. 20 1779 MS BOEHME: Thank you, Sarah. 21 1780 It actually is something that every 22 independent producer that we work with was sent a copy 23 of our Best Practices document. Many of them called to 24 speak to me about it. We had very open discussions 25 about how it was going to be implemented.
1 1781 In most cases where we have a choice 2 we insist and build in approvals that require casting 3 to be sensitive to racially diverse people being 4 represented. In those projects that we are developing, 5 we make it front and centre. 6 1782 We do in fact have a very large multi 7 million dollar television series that is being financed 8 right now where, for us, because it is about a search 9 for identity -- and it is science fiction, so obviously 10 it is a metaphor. But for us, we really want to be 11 cutting edge. 12 1783 In fact, we have insisted that the 13 protagonist and the hero of the series be a multi 14 racial character. He is not one thing; he is not 15 another thing. He is a complex of group of things. We 16 are targeting younger demographic, and we really 17 believe that that is the next wave of story-telling. 18 1784 We run into some resistance in some 19 of our international markets, but the project is 20 probably about six weeks away from closing the 21 financing. 22 1785 It is one of those things that we 23 have been really cognizant of. Every producer that 24 comes to us that wants to tell that kind of story, we 25 don't tell them the kind of story that they want to
1 tell, but we support them in the sense that we make 2 their stories coherent; we make them marketable. And 3 we help promote their efforts. 4 1786 In those cases with the multicultural 5 filmmakers that we have worked with on the feature film 6 side where they have asked us "do we need to dialogue 7 everything in English", the answer is always: No. If 8 it is a natural outcrop of what they are doing, let 9 them speak in whatever language is appropriate, and 10 then we subtitle into English where it is appropriate. 11 1787 So it is one of those things that 12 everybody who asks us is certainly given the 13 opportunity to express themselves in the language that 14 is natural to them. 15 1788 And no, we are not getting enough 16 filmmakers from a lot of different communities, and it 17 is part of the reason that every time I go to a film 18 festival and every time I sit on a panel, it is front 19 and centre with this is what we are looking for. That 20 is what every independent producer wants to know. We 21 always say we are looking for multicultural 22 representation. 23 1789 Does that help? 24 1790 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You guys 25 trained well. You always answer the next two questions
1 I have. 2 1791 But one you didn't. To what extent 3 do you find or do you have any sense of whether this is 4 helping you with regard to sales in the United States? 5 1792 I ask this question in light of the 6 major effort by the big broadcasters there who have 7 signed these memorandums of agreement with groups like 8 the MWACP and others with commitments to have more 9 material that reflects the American diversity, but 10 reflects diversity. 11 1793 Are you getting any sense of that, 12 that they are interested in material that is diverse? 13 1794 MS BOEHME: On the television series 14 side, yes, it helps. It has not necessarily been the 15 case of the feature film side. Inroads are being made 16 through specialty festivals of one kind or another. 17 There is always an aboriginal film festival that is 18 held in conjunction with Sundance, for instance, with a 19 very large over-representation from Canadian filmmakers 20 that are First Nations peoples. 21 1795 It is a slow battle, but they are 22 listening, absolutely. 23 1796 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I have a few 24 more quick questions on your plan. 25 1797 On page 10 you have talked about
1 "Vancouver's Other Stories" -- and this is really a 2 question I should have asked a few months ago. 3 1798 You have an $800,000 fund for the 4 "Vancouver's Other Stories", and then you have a 5 $7 million fund for the B.C. feature films. 6 1799 I am assuming that the B.C. feature 7 films isn't for the white folks and the other folks go 8 to the "other stories" part. 9 1800 MS CRAWFORD: No. 10 1801 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I thought I 11 would ask that, all the same. 12 1802 You talked about employment equity 13 being a vital plank in your reflective strategy, at the 14 bottom of page 11. 15 1803 I looked at some employment equity 16 figures on CHUM Limited, which were not very positive. 17 As you may be aware, Human Resources Development ranks 18 federally regulated companies on an A, B, C, D level. 19 1804 For the year 2000 they have ranked 20 the aboriginal category as "C", and visible minorities 21 was "C". Then in 2001 aboriginal categories was "C" 22 and visible minorities was "D". 23 1805 You have received "A" in the category 24 of women, which is good; person with disability, "C". 25 1806 Just so you know, among other
1 corporations there is a range of As, Bs, Cs and Ds. So 2 "As" are attainable. 3 1807 I was surprised to see that, because 4 a "D" is sort of out of sync with everything else that 5 you are putting forward. 6 1808 MS CRAWFORD: I have a couple of 7 comments on that. 8 1809 We are speaking here today clearly 9 for CHUM Television. Those numbers that you have 10 reflect our entire corporate group, CHUM Limited, so I 11 can't break them out for you. 12 1810 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes. They 13 didn't have them broken out. 14 1811 MS CRAWFORD: And they don't break 15 them out. 16 1812 I can tell you that we do conduct 17 self-identification questionnaires which, as you know, 18 are voluntary when you undertake to do that amongst 19 your staff. 20 1813 We get a fairly good response rate. 21 But as you are probably aware, it is a voluntary 22 questionnaire, and not everyone has to or wants to fill 23 it out. 24 1814 Our indications, both from the 25 responses of the questionnaires, station by station,
1 and just experientially, anecdotally, as managers we 2 know that our reflection levels are very, very good; in 3 many cases, in almost all cases, meeting community 4 profile levels and exceeding them. 5 1815 We have many excellent stories, not 6 only for on-air reflection but behind the scenes 7 reflection of visible minority and aboriginal people 8 being over-represented and in fact being included in 9 very significant key areas of responsibility, 10 managerial areas, in terms of programming; also areas 11 of influencing program creation and programming 12 content. 13 1816 The numbers are inherently flawed, I 14 guess is what I am saying, to a degree. 15 1817 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But they are 16 flawed equally for anybody else, too. 17 1818 MS CRAWFORD: I guess so. I am 18 saying that our own experience and evidence indicates 19 that we are performing quite well. In terms of the 20 employment equity numbers as filed, there are problems 21 with that. 22 1819 MR. MILLER: I would actually say 23 they are not equally flawed for everyone else. As you 24 are aware, the jurisdiction for employment equity was 25 moved to the Human Rights Commission, which changes the
1 Broadcasting Act. 2 1820 The major corporate groups have gone 3 through an audit, and I think they went through the 4 exercise that we are just going through to ensure 5 self-identification happens. 6 1821 So I think part of the problem may be 7 that we haven't been vigorous enough in our 8 self-identification, which is something that we are 9 working on now. 10 1822 MS CRAWFORD: Interestingly, there 11 are real difficulties and challenges with that process. 12 I will share with you that a cursory glance at the 13 response rate of our most recent self-identification 14 audit indicates that almost 100 per cent of the male 15 staff chose not to fill it out. Therefore, we are not 16 capturing any male staff representing visible minority 17 groups at all, which inherently flaws the numbers. 18 1823 And believe me, we are quite vigilant 19 in encouraging, to the degree that we can -- because it 20 is a voluntary form -- including even phoning staff who 21 chose not to respond, to just give them a friendly 22 reminder that you may want to respond or did you lose 23 your form. 24 1824 Notwithstanding that, we are not 25 getting anywhere close to a 100 per cent response rate.
1 1825 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: As you know, 2 the jurisdiction for employment equity itself isn't the 3 Commission's; it is the Human Rights Commission and 4 HRDC. 5 1826 But you have filed it -- and most 6 others have -- as a factor that looks at the overall 7 cultural diversity approach and gives one a sense. 8 1827 So if you do have anything more at a 9 future time to let us know, it would be helpful. 10 1828 Among your top management, is there 11 much diversity, say with the vice-presidents and 12 upwards? 13 1829 MS CRAWFORD: I will comment on that. 14 1830 Contrary to appearances of having 15 brought our entire staff to this hearing, we actually 16 did not. There are people who represent visible 17 minorities and aboriginal people who are in managerial 18 positions, who you do not see before you today. 19 1831 You do, however, see before you today 20 -- and you haven't seen some of our teams yet -- people 21 in senior positions who do represent both aboriginal 22 peoples and visible minorities. 23 1832 Another thing about CHUM that is 24 unique, perhaps, is that there are many senior staff, 25 especially at the vice-president level and above, who
1 are long, long time CHUM employees. And to a degree, I 2 think the reflection rate in senior management is going 3 to evolve as a generational thing. 4 1833 The mean age, the average age, of the 5 people who sit before you today, including some of our 6 newer members, is 19 years of service on average. On 7 some of our other teams later, on the Citytv team, the 8 average years, length of service, comes in at 21 years. 9 1834 We have an entire new generation of 10 talent representing visible minorities and aboriginal 11 peoples who you will see very soon at the senior-most 12 levels of CHUM Television. They are just not there 13 yet. 14 1835 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks for 15 that, because are dealing with sort of the next term as 16 well. 17 1836 I want to share with you that a year 18 ago Ivan Fecan sat here and said when he comes back in 19 seven years for a licence for renewal, he will be 20 number one in the Canadian scene in terms of reflecting 21 cultural diversity. 22 1837 Are you going to let that happen? 23 1838 MR. ZNAIMER: Absolutely not! 24 1839 You might want to note that Ivan 25 Fecan got his start in television at Citytv.
1 1840 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And CHIN radio 2 before that, I understand who is also part of your 3 team. 4 1841 Finally, a question on media 5 education. You have talked about media education here 6 -- and this is again one of the general questions, when 7 we are talking to the industry, that comes under that 8 title. 9 1842 What is your sense of what the 10 priorities are these days in terms of media literacy, 11 media education? Where is the field focusing? 12 1843 MS CRAWFORD: The field is 13 developing, as you know. As you also know, CHUM is the 14 leading private broadcaster certainly in Canada in 15 supporting media education. In the specific unique 16 rules that we play, we have been recognized as the 17 leading broadcaster in the world in supporting media 18 education. 19 1844 We believe inherently that it is of 20 huge importance. Like it or not, the screen is the 21 ubiquitous and dominant media that is in our children's 22 and all of our lives. 23 1845 In the same way that people need to 24 think critically about the printed page and about 25 printed text, people also need to think critically and
1 have the tools to think critically about what is on the 2 screen. 3 1846 We, as a broadcaster, have stepped in 4 as a private company to fill in the holes where it is 5 not happening. Media education is mandated from 6 K-to-13 in every province right across the country. 7 There is huge lack of teacher training. 8 1847 CHUM underwrites meaningful teacher 9 training by media education experts. It is not 10 television executives going into the faculties of 11 education to provide this training. You are going to 12 hear from one of the intervenors today, in fact, who 13 undertakes this for CHUM in many areas. 14 1848 So teacher training is definitely an 15 area. 16 1849 Having original content that is 17 Canadian content, that encourages a critical look at 18 the screen, is another key area. It is also one that 19 we have undertaken to make sure that we do. 20 1850 We hear from teachers all the time: 21 that if they see one more in-class television program 22 about dolphins, they are going to scream. What they 23 really need at the high school level is a show -- 24 1851 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think that is a 25 good topic.
1 1852 MS CRAWFORD: Dolphins are 2 well-served, believe me. 3 --- Laughter / Rires 4 1853 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You want to 5 make sure you pronounce that word right. 6 1854 MS CRAWFORD: What we really need is 7 perhaps an area -- and again it focuses on youth -- 8 where some of the influences that are so prevalent in 9 pop culture really get explored in a really critical 10 and profound way and that people are given the tools to 11 understand the media and not be threatened by it. 12 1855 Television is an incredibly powerful 13 medium, as we all know. It doesn't need saying here. 14 1856 We have a stake in seeing that the 15 medium is not devalued. We have a stake as 16 professionals, and also frankly as citizens who care 17 about the broadcasting system, in ensuring that 18 television continues to be used for the best. 19 1857 I believe very strongly -- we believe 20 that media education is a key component in the 21 broadcasting business and in the educational systems 22 that needs to be focused on far more powerful a tool to 23 deal with some of the challenges in the popular media 24 than in instruments like, say, the v-chip, which really 25 becomes an electronic babysitter.
1 1858 I am not disparaging the usefulness 2 of that tool entirely, but it is a different kind of 3 tool with specific limitations. I think that education 4 about the media is really where we need to be. 5 1859 I think I answered your question. 6 1860 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yes, you did. 7 Thank you very much. 8 1861 And thank you for those answers. 9 1862 Mr. Chair, that covers my questions. 10 1863 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 11 1864 I have two areas of wrap-up at this 12 phase. 13 1865 I wonder, Mr. Palframan, if I could 14 get you to look at the revised financial statements, at 15 Sections 3.1 and 3.4 for all stations, and then Section 16 3.2 for Citytv. I just want to see whether I am 17 reading it correctly. 18 1866 When I look at the all stations 19 bottom table, Analysis of Savings Flexibility and Other 20 Measures, and the local programming line, and I get to 21 year seven, I see a figure of $10,183,000. 22 1867 MR. PALFRAMAN: Yes, that is correct. 23 1868 THE CHAIRPERSON: Then when I go to 24 the Citytv chart under News, year one to year seven, I 25 notice that there is a fall-off of some $5 million.
1 1869 MR. PALFRAMAN: Yes, that's correct. 2 1870 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is that half of 3 that $10 million? 4 1871 MR. PALFRAMAN: Yes, it would be. 5 1872 THE CHAIRPERSON: It would be. 6 1873 Could you break down how that 7 $5 million is calculated, how you get from the 8 $12,313,000 in year one down to $7,721,000? 9 1874 Does this have anything to do with 10 the cutting the crews discussion that we had yesterday; 11 and if so, how do you factor in that element of cost 12 saving? 13 1875 MR. PALFRAMAN: Sure. And it does 14 relate exactly to that. 15 1876 As part of getting clarity as to how 16 that number comes down, it is useful to look at the 17 Citytv page, the Citytv analysis of the savings. That 18 shows the breakdown as to how we have estimated those 19 savings on the Citytv 3.2, going down from the 12 to 20 the 7. 21 1877 If you look at the actual Citytv page 22 for Section 3.1, there is an analysis of those savings 23 from flexibility and other measures. It shows a 24 breakdown between local programming and other Canadian 25 programming.
1 1878 THE CHAIRPERSON: Right. 2 1879 MR. PALFRAMAN: You will see, for 3 example, that in year one the estimated savings from 4 local programming is $282,000 in the first year, going 5 to $6.4 million in the seventh year. 6 1880 THE CHAIRPERSON: Two sixty-two. 7 1881 MR. PALFRAMAN: I'm sorry, 262. 8 Maybe I need reading glasses, as well. 9 1882 That speaks to Sarah's point about 10 the aging senior management. 11 --- Laughter / Rires 12 1883 MR. PALFRAMAN: In any event, it 13 shows the movement from $262,000 to $6.4 million in 14 local programming. And the other Canadian estimated 15 savings are the $2.1 million. 16 1884 That shows you the progression 17 through Citytv. 18 1885 Specifically to your question, that 19 is where the reductions in a crew, for example, would 20 be reflected. 21 1886 I guess the other point I would make 22 is that the further out one goes, the harder it is to 23 be specific about where those savings would be. What 24 we have tried to do with these projections is to give 25 you a sense of the magnitude of what it is that we have
1 to deal with and our best estimate of how that might be 2 implemented. 3 1887 In reality, obviously we hope that it 4 won't get to that point. We have talked about how 5 nimble we are and the kinds of things we will have to 6 do. 7 1888 But in terms of being responsible and 8 reflecting the reality that we have today versus four 9 weeks ago, we wanted to give you a sense of how that 10 might unfold. 11 1889 THE CHAIRPERSON: Right. It seems 12 that when you look at the line you just pointed me to 13 that you basically add a million and some every year -- 14 well, from the first to the second and from the second 15 to the third, and then seven hundred and then another 16 million, and nine hundred. 17 1890 I am wondering how you get those 18 chunks. They are not exact, and they don't seem to be 19 projections. 20 1891 Do they relate to block expenditures 21 on crews, as you were describing yesterday; and if so, 22 could you break them down? 23 1892 MR. MILLER: Again, to reiterate what 24 we said yesterday, what we did is develop the target of 25 where we need to get to and then, for the purpose of
1 these financial projections, have a reasonable 2 roll-out. 3 1893 Certainly Peter can speak to the 4 assumptions he made as to how that rolls out. 5 1894 Again, to be clear, all we have done 6 is set the target of where we need to get to at the end 7 of the licence term. How we get there will be a 8 combination of all the things we have talked about, one 9 of which could be cutting crews. But we have not made 10 any determinations on that. 11 1895 Obviously, as this suggests, the 12 cutbacks to the City news operation would be very 13 significant over this period. How much of that we can 14 absorb through doing things differently versus cutting 15 crews is a debate that we are going to spend a lot of 16 time on in the next year and in subsequent years. 17 1896 So it goes to that point of all we 18 tried to do is show you where we have to go. We can't 19 tell you if it is going to be exactly this or exactly 20 how we are going to get there. 21 1897 MR. PALFRAMAN: Additionally, 22 Mr. Chair, as we discussed yesterday, we have some 23 comfort and quite a bit of certainty about the next 24 year. In fact, the targets for Citytv in Section 3.1 25 of what we believe we are going to have to find are in
1 the order of half a million dollars. 2 1898 I am not suggesting that is an easy 3 thing, but it is certainly something we can handle and 4 deal with over the year. 5 1899 We believe the required savings that 6 we are going to have to find the following year, when 7 both stations have launched, is about $2.5 million. As 8 we go out into the model, it becomes much more 9 difficult to be specific about choosing from all the 10 choices we have before us. 11 1900 THE CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you could 12 share some of those assumptions now or subsequently, 13 Mr. Palframan. I am easy on either. 14 1901 I am trying to also relate these to 15 your local programming commitments; that if you cut 16 that amount out of the budget, as you pointed me to, 17 then $5 million in news -- it's a lot more than that 18 when you go across the board; $6.5 million of local. 19 1902 How do you maintain even the reduced 20 commitments from your best case scenario? 21 1903 MR. MILLER: I would first of all 22 point out that we have, as we discussed yesterday, 23 filed minimum commitments for local news and non-news 24 programming at Citytv of 18 hours. 25 1904 We can do those 18 hours with these
1 numbers at the end of the licence term. We are not 2 saying we are going to go that route, but if we had to 3 go to these levels, we know we could at least produce 4 and air those 18 hours. 5 1905 Our hope is obviously that we would 6 be able to produce significantly more than that. But 7 again, we haven't made any determinations at this stage 8 as to how we would accommodate these cuts. 9 1906 In proposing to you -- and this is 10 key -- the level of 18 hours and in developing these 11 final projections, there is a consistence there which 12 does, to your point, relate to the cutting of crews. 13 1907 So at the extreme worst-case 14 scenario, if I may, by cutting crews and reducing to 15 our absolute bare minimum commitment, we have enough 16 money in these projections to do that. 17 1908 Again, I reiterate that is the 18 extreme worst-case scenario that we hope we don't have 19 to go down to in terms of level of hours. We are going 20 to have to go down in terms of these dollars, to some 21 extent, unless something changes. But in terms of 22 hours, obviously our big challenge as a team will be 23 figuring out how to do more with less. 24 1909 THE CHAIRPERSON: It certainly will 25 be a challenge.
1 1910 I need a little more reassurance that 2 you can maintain it with less since you are basically 3 chopping half your local budget and saying you will be 4 able to maintain those levels. 5 1911 MR. MILLER: Maybe I can try it with 6 another approach. 7 1912 We currently do 22 hours and 40 8 minutes of local news on Citytv. If we were to cut 9 that -- and I am just picking a number out of the air 10 -- to 11 hours and 20 minutes, that would be a cut of 11 half, representing almost what we have done here. 12 1913 Then on top of that, if we were to 13 have the remainder, which would be, if my math is 14 correct, six hours and 40 minutes of local programming 15 a week, that would take us up to the 18 hours. 16 1914 If I have understood your question to 17 be "could we meet the minimum commitments we filed with 18 these projections", the answer is yes. That was the 19 important decision we had to make in filing both these 20 projections and the absolute bare minimum commitments 21 that we filed with you. 22 1915 THE CHAIRPERSON: Did I hear an 23 undertaking, Mr. Palframan? 24 1916 I'm sorry if I am not pronouncing 25 your name properly.
1 1917 MR. PALFRAMAN: That's pretty good. 2 1918 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could you flesh out 3 the assumptions as to how you did that local 4 programming line on the Citytv chart? 5 1919 MR. PALFRAMAN: Yes, I will certainly 6 file that with you. But for now, and just so you know, 7 there were a number of things that we took into account 8 in coming up with those projections, which included 9 revenue levels and the current spending on local. 10 1920 Where the current spending is 11 heaviest, as Peter indicated, you can make those kinds 12 of cuts but still produce the kinds of hours that we 13 have committed to. 14 1921 I can certainly expand on that, and 15 we will file that with you. 16 1922 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 17 1923 Finally, in your opening comments -- 18 and I think it was Mr. Znaimer's portion -- you say on 19 page 7 that: 20 "If you want risk-taking -- 21 particularly if, Mr. Chair, you 22 want a response to your 'Book 23 Mark' challenge of taking US 24 primetime head-on -- please 25 recognize in us a team who are
1 itching to put ourselves in a 2 position to take up that 3 challenge." 4 1924 We didn't review that, so I would 5 like you to give me your strategy as to how we are 6 going to meet the U.S. prime time challenge head-on and 7 when. 8 1925 MR. ZNAIMER: This relates to the 9 discussion about what portion of expenditures on higher 10 cost, high quality entertainment materials comes to us 11 from outside producers and what portion we make 12 ourselves. 13 1926 We are a production-oriented 14 broadcaster and have some very good and, I think, 15 highly innovative ideas about how to do that kind of 16 programming and are eager to give it a try but find 17 ourselves at this moment hemmed in, one, by our 18 near-term financial realities, but beyond that by a 19 variety of funding mechanisms and pressures from third 20 party producers to prevent us from being active in this 21 field. 22 1927 We wish to be active in this field, 23 and we think we have a particularly unique contribution 24 to make in this field. That is what that reference is 25 about.
1 1928 MR. MILLER: The other half of that, 2 if I can add -- 3 1929 THE CHAIRPERSON: But how are you 4 going to do it? What is the strategy for Canada and in 5 particular for Citytv and the CHUM group in meeting 6 that challenge that you so rightly -- 7 1930 MR. ZNAIMER: Well, the crucial first 8 step was the acquisition of another City-style outlet 9 in a major market. One of the things that prevented us 10 from moving into the higher cost areas of fiction has 11 always been the fact that we had one solitary little 12 transmitter in one city, with quite a circumscribed 13 signal at that. 14 1931 So adding another big market is a 15 partial way to that solution. Perhaps adding one or 16 two other markets would also be an additional piece or 17 two in that puzzle. 18 1932 We feel ourselves approaching the 19 moment and the level at which we can undertake this 20 kind of activity. We have the desire to do so. 21 1933 There are some broadcast 22 organizations that don't have the desire to do so and 23 are happy to cede this work to independents or 24 so-called independents. 25 1934 Peter, what do you want to add?
1 1935 THE CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask you, 2 though, what you see as the U.S. prime time challenge. 3 1936 MR. MILLER: Could I jump in, 4 Mr. Chair? 5 1937 There are three parts to this. Moses 6 discussed the part of us itching to get at this as 7 producers and our frustrations with a public policy 8 framework that has built up a so-called independent 9 production sector, the biggest player of which is no 10 longer independent, and yet public policy still treats 11 them as such. That is hopefully something that public 12 policy will address. 13 1938 I am, of course, not referring to 14 your policies; I am referring to those of the funding 15 agencies. 16 1939 Two -- and we have hinted at this -- 17 we are very proud of our track record of attracting 18 Canadians to Canadian programming in prime time on a 19 relative basis. We think, as we grow, as Moses 20 indicated, first with the addition in the Vancouver 21 market, and if we are blessed with other markets in the 22 future, then our ability to take these risks and to do 23 it is enhanced. 24 1940 Third, in terms of our work with 25 independent producers, we see the addition of our
1 production as not detracting in any way from our 2 support of true, if you will, independent producers. 3 1941 As Diane pointed to earlier, roughly 4 95 per cent of the productions that we financed over 5 the last licence term were to small and medium-sized 6 companies. 7 1942 So that development of talent, we are 8 convinced that there is real talent there that we are 9 developing that will take us to better and better 10 movies. And one of our dreams would be a really 11 strong, unique prime time Canadian series. 12 1943 If the Osbornes can be done by MTV, 13 we can do something perhaps as popular and as different 14 as that, as a Canadian production. 15 1944 Finally, in terms of how we do it, we 16 certainly don't have all the answers today, Mr. Chair. 17 It is part and parcel of our philosophy, which is not 18 to ghettoize Canadian programming and not to be overly 19 reliant on U.S. simulcast. 20 1945 So we will put top-notch Canadian 21 programming up where the viewers are. That sometimes 22 will mean head-to-head with some top U.S. shows. We 23 have done it before; we will do it again. 24 1946 As Moses indicated, if we can get 25 past this challenging short-term period, hopefully
1 short-term period, then we want to get back at that. 2 1947 We want to acknowledge your statement 3 and indicate that we think it is important, and we want 4 to try and take you up on your challenge. 5 1948 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 6 1949 We will adjourn now, Mr. Secretary, 7 and come back with the next item. 8 1950 Do you want to describe that? 9 1951 MR. LEBEL: After the break, 10 Mr. Chairman, we will hear the second presentation that 11 is going to be made by CHUM. 12 1952 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We will 13 resume at 11:05, in 15 minutes. 14 --- Upon recessing at 1050 / Suspension à 1050 15 --- Upon resuming at 1105 / Reprend à 1105 16 1953 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, 17 would you call the next item, please. 18 1954 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 19 1955 We will now hear CHUM on their 20 presentation for City and CKVU. 21 1956 You have 15 minutes to make your 22 presentation. 23 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 24 1957 MR. SWITZER: Thank you. 25 1958 Mr. Chair, Madam Vice-Chair, Members
1 of the Commission, for the record my name is Jay 2 Switzer, President, CHUM Television. 3 1959 Before we begin our presentation 4 today, I would like to introduce you to our large and 5 energetic group that represents the Citytv and CKVU 6 panel. 7 1960 Beginning in this first row, on the 8 left -- I will just talk about changes, to be 9 respectful of time -- we have Stephen Tapp, 10 Vice-President and General Manager of Citytv. To your 11 right of Peter Miller is Brad Phillips, Vice-President 12 and General Manager of CKVU in Vancouver. Stephen and 13 Brad will introduce their local teams to you in the 14 course of their presentations. 15 1961 At the crowded side table, in a 16 slightly different order than before, let me again 17 introduce, starting from your far left, Daphne Hubble, 18 David Caporicci, Dan Hamilton, David Kirkwood, Ron 19 Waters, Fred Sherratt, Peter Palframan, Brigitte Daviut 20 and Paul Gratton. 21 1962 To begin our presentation, could we 22 roll the tape, please. 23 --- Video presentation / Présentation vidéo 24 1963 MR. TAPP: Mr. Chair, Madam 25 Vice-Chair, Members of the Commissioners, I am Stephen
1 Tapp, Vice-President and General Manager of Citytv 2 Toronto, and I think I have the best job in television. 3 1964 With us from our Citytv team are 4 Ellen Baine, Director of Programming; Marcia Martin, 5 Vice-President Production; Jenny Norush, Director of 6 Promotion and Advertising; and Stephen Hurlbut, 7 Vice-President of News Programming. 8 1965 It is a pleasure to be here before 9 you today to present the Citytv story. 10 1966 Citytv is one of the key architects 11 of local television in this country. Local television, 12 to us, has meant constantly striving for ways to be an 13 inclusive broadcaster. For the last 30 years, we have 14 opened our doors to the rich, culturally and racially 15 diverse viewing communities that comprise our 16 television neighbourhood. 17 1967 Citytv has been, and remains, 18 accessible, interactive and spontaneous. These are 19 attributes that we come by honestly. It's in our DNA; 20 it's who we are. 21 1968 Our support for our diverse community 22 includes broadcasting 10 hours a week of programming, 23 representing 10 different languages and cultures, 24 through our long-standing relationship with CHIN 25 Radio/Television International.
1 1969 These shows extend deep into our 2 community. They support many local organizations, 3 businesses and performers. For Citytv to give a window 4 to this kind of programming is one thing, but it's our 5 commitment to being an involved participant in the 6 day-to-day multicultural reality of Toronto that sets 7 us apart. 8 1970 MS NORUSH: Our community involvement 9 extends to events such as Caribana, The Reel World Film 10 Festival, The New Pioneers Awards, The Canadian 11 Aboriginal Festival, Metro International Caravan and 12 one of our more gratifying yearly events, The Canadian 13 Citizenship Ceremony that we hold at the station and 14 broadcast live. 15 1971 In the domain of charitable support, 16 we take our role as an engaged community partner very 17 seriously. We lend financial, airtime, talent support 18 and consulting expertise to many worthy causes. 19 1972 We support our community not because 20 we have to, but because we want to. We want to put in 21 more than we take out. 22 1973 MR. HURLBUT: Citytv provides more 23 local news than any other station in the Toronto area. 24 We are fully dedicated to localism and to the task of 25 giving a voice to the local stories that have a real
1 tangible meaning for our viewers. Our "day in the 2 life" brand of telejournalism is community based. We 3 are interactive, democratic and pluralist; but most 4 importantly, we are accessible: accessible through 5 innovative formats like "Speakers Corner", our daily 6 video letter to the editor, and "CityOnline" where we 7 solicit our viewers' opinions by phone, fax and e-mail. 8 1974 "Streetwise", our nightly wisdom from 9 the street interviews, gives priority to the viewers' 10 take on the stories of the day. Just recently we were 11 the first Canadian station to launch interactive 12 television, and viewer usage stats are the highest 13 experienced by any broadcaster in North America. 14 1975 Breakfast Television has been an 15 important part of our community for over 13 years. 16 During the current licence term, we have provided live 17 access to over 2800 local bands and artists, 3500 18 community groups and charities. We have showcased over 19 1750 live locations. 20 1976 Every day we take BT to the streets. 21 We hit the road and broadcast live from the cafés, the 22 schools, the factories -- from all the places that 23 Torontonians gather. 24 1977 Citytv remains the only station in 25 Toronto that has an active on-air Ombudsman. For over
1 15 years Peter Silverman has been a fearless consumer 2 advocate on our viewers' behalf. Peter and his team 3 help solve 100 problems a year on camera, but they also 4 help eight times that number off camera. 5 1978 At Citytv we ask the question: What 6 is the one thing you would do to make Toronto a better 7 place to live? 8 1979 In our weekly news feature "The 9 Living City", we celebrate those special individuals 10 who are doing something to make a difference. 11 1980 At Citytv we get involved. With our 12 Living City Task Force, we have handed out sleeping 13 bags to the homeless and volunteered in soup kitchens. 14 We have planted trees and collected clothing for 15 underprivileged children. We give access to our 16 station, but we also participate in a real, meaningful 17 and physical way. 18 1981 At Citytv, the city is our newsroom. 19 1982 MS BOEHME: Part of City's mandate 20 over the years has been to produce as much local, 21 original programming as we could. This has helped 22 define our unique personality and market position. But 23 we know we can't do it all. That is why, over the last 24 25 years, City is proud to be the primary broadcast 25 supporter of Canadian filmmakers with a special
1 emphasis on new, emerging talent. 2 1983 Atom Egoyan is an internationally 3 recognized name. But before he was famous, when he 4 needed support for his early feature "Speaking Parts", 5 it was Citytv that supported him. In the years since, 6 we have stayed committed to Canadian filmmakers. 7 1984 Whether it is at an early development 8 phase or later on, when it is time to put real dollars 9 on the table and demonstrate market support, in most 10 cases Citytv steps in first. Again, this is consistent 11 with who we are and reiterates our eagerness to lead 12 the way for innovation. 13 1985 So too, our support for The Toronto 14 International Film Festival is unrivalled. For 18 15 years Citytv has supported the award for Best Canadian 16 Film. Since 1996 we have also supported the award for 17 Best Canadian First Feature Film. 18 1986 We don't just hand out awards; we 19 hand out well-deserved and much needed cash to the 20 winners. 21 1987 MS MARTIN: One of our most important 22 original productions is the annual Festival Schmooze on 23 MovieTelevision, a 90-minute live show that showcases 24 the Canadian film industry with The Toronto 25 International Film Festival's "Perspective Canada" --
1 all about Canadian films, filmmakers and stars. 2 1988 MovieTelevision has told more than 3 500 Canadian feature film stories in the past seven 4 years, and Startv has profiled more than 400 Canadian 5 stars in just the last four years. It is part of our 6 ongoing contribution to the development of a healthy 7 star system. 8 1989 Other local productions like Fashion 9 Television, MediaTelevision, The NewMusic and Cityline 10 have become distinct brands and remain an important 11 part of who we are today. It's the success of local 12 programming that not only tells our story but has been 13 a model that has become exportable. 14 1990 Our Canadian stories and culture, 15 told in our original programming, are seen in over 120 16 countries worldwide; and our pioneering formats have 17 been adopted by other broadcasters internationally. 18 We, like them, have found that more original 19 production, more local culture, is the smart response 20 to the ongoing influx of American entertainment 21 programming that dominates our airwaves. 22 1991 MR. TAPP: Mr. Chair, Commissioners, 23 as you can see, we are proud of the special place that 24 we occupy in the hearts and minds of our viewers and of 25 our community. However, our contributions to localism,
1 cultural diversity, independent production and 2 community outreach come with a significant cost. 3 1992 Toronto is undeniably the most 4 competitive television market in the world. With the 5 impending addition of two new Toronto stations, our 6 market reality has drastically changed. It is becoming 7 even more difficult to generate the kind of revenues 8 that we require to maintain high levels of original and 9 local content. 10 1993 Accordingly, we are asking the 11 Commission to accept an appropriate level of priority 12 and local programming commitments. These commitments 13 will significantly exceed our current conditions of 14 licence -- for local, 35 per cent higher than the COL 15 that is currently in place. 16 1994 We submit these proposals in 17 accordance with your policy framework and in light of 18 what we hope you will agree is our unique contribution 19 to the broadcasting system. 20 1995 Finally, we know that local has a 21 different rhythm, a different pace and a unique style 22 anywhere and everywhere you go. So Citytv in Barcelona 23 belongs to the people of Barcelona, and Citytv Bogota 24 looks like Bogota. 25 1996 In Toronto, Citytv is Toronto
1 Television. CKVU, to be known as Citytv Vancouver, 2 will be an original, one of a kind station that will 3 honestly and credibly reflect the faces, the issues and 4 the pulse of that great city. 5 1997 MR. PHILLIPS: I am Brad Phillips, 6 General Manager and Vice-President of CKVU Television. 7 1998 With me today are members of our 8 management team. To my immediate left is Prem Gill, 9 Manager of Public Affairs. Behind Prem is George 10 Froehlich, Director of News and Daily Programming. 11 Next to George is Debbie Millette, Program Manager. 12 1999 CHUM's purchase of CKVU Television 13 closed on October 31, 2001, and as British Columbians 14 we can't express to you just how excited and proud we 15 are to have this opportunity in Vancouver. 16 2000 In our recently approved application 17 we committed to rebuilding CKVU to become an ultra 18 urban, ultra modern, news-minded, movie-based station, 19 reflecting the cultural diversity of Vancouver and the 20 Lower Mainland. We are now well on our way to 21 fulfilling that commitment and offering our viewers 22 more local news, local non-news programming and local 23 multicultural programming. 24 2001 MR. FROEHLICH: Our first step will 25 be the creation of a new daily show that will reflect
1 Vancouver's polyglot community. It will be 2 contemporary, stylish and relevant in its presentation 3 and content. Viewers will experience a program that 4 will showcase Vancouver with its unique and distinctive 5 voices. 6 2002 This program will be part of the 7 station's commitment of 12 hours of locally produced 8 non-music programming. 9 2003 The station is also revamping its 10 flagship 6 p.m. newscast to be more on the cutting edge 11 of social issues, trends, lifestyles and news viewers 12 can use. 13 2004 Our vision is one of a news program 14 that will be more culturally diverse, more sensitive 15 and inclusive to the needs and aspirations of our 16 viewers. 17 2005 A team of specialist reporters 18 representing the diversity of Vancouver will ensure 19 that these objectives are met. The scope of their task 20 will be wide-ranging and innovative, from bridging 21 communities to youth issues and bread and butter 22 matters such as education and health, to name but a 23 few. 24 2006 MS GILL: CKVU will be the first 25 conventional broadcaster in Canada to create an
1 in-house production unit dedicated to producing local, 2 original, "new style" multicultural and aboriginal 3 television. 4 2007 We will produce a daily flagship 5 program and weekly magazines focused on current affairs 6 and entertainment. This programming will be mostly in 7 English and targeted at second and third generation 8 Canadians. 9 2008 CHUM's commitment to independent 10 production in Vancouver is well recognized by 11 Vancouver's local feature film community. Now there 12 will be even more development and pre-buy dollars 13 available to support B.C. independent features, and it 14 means terrific Vancouver-made feature films, like 15 "Protection" and "Last Wedding", will be see in the 16 communities that created them, as well as across the 17 country. 18 2009 One thing that we have found, 19 however, is that not enough people in the multicultural 20 and aboriginal film making communities are aware of the 21 opportunities that exist for them. 22 2010 On March 21st we announced a 23 submissions call for short dramatic stories from 24 aboriginal and visible minority filmmakers to a new 25 funding and development program, "Vancouver's Other
1 Stories". By the May 1st deadline we had received 60 2 submissions -- well over the 20 or so we had expected. 3 2011 MR. PHILLIPS: In addition to 4 "Vancouver's Other Stories", we have already initiated 5 many of the commitments to local talent development 6 that were part of CHUM's benefits package. 7 2012 Details were provided in our 8 reporting letter filed on Friday. 9 2013 We are extremely proud of the 10 progress we have made in just six months. As we 11 prepare to re-launch CKVU as Citytv Vancouver, we also 12 recognize that our commitment and dedication to 13 reflecting Vancouver's culturally diverse reality must 14 not only be in front of the camera, but also behind the 15 scenes. This is a major priority of ours. 16 2014 Mr. Chair, Commissioners, we have 17 presented you with a short introduction of our progress 18 and plans in Vancouver. We are committed and have 19 already begun to create truly local, reflective 20 television in the Vancouver market. 21 2015 On behalf of my colleagues at CKVU-TV 22 and Citytv in Toronto, thank you for listening. We 23 look forward to your questions. 24 2016 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 25 much.
1 2017 Commissioner Cardozo will lead the 2 questioning on Citytv and Commissioner Grauer on CKVU. 3 2018 I will ask Commissioner Cardozo to 4 begin. 5 2019 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, 6 Mr. Chair. 7 2020 Before I get into some of the 8 specifics of the issues we need to discuss, I wonder if 9 you could take a couple of minutes and paint me a 10 pretty broad-brush picture of where you see Citytv in, 11 say, five to seven years from now. 12 2021 In the video and what you talked 13 about is what you have done to date -- and that is part 14 of what a licence renewal proceeding is about -- and 15 where you are today. 16 2022 How do you see things changing or 17 being different in terms of how the viewer sees it? 18 2023 The viewer doesn't count hours of 19 this or that. They just get the stuff every day. How 20 do you see yourselves evolving? 21 2024 MR. SWITZER: Perhaps I can begin, 22 Commissioner, and Moses or Stephen and others may want 23 to join in. 24 2025 Citytv has grown and changed, of 25 course, since its launch in September of 1972. I think
1 if you were to look back at the program schedule and 2 the words that we used seven years ago when this 3 Commission discussed both our plans forward and our 4 plans backwards with many of the same individuals that 5 appear here before you today, and if you were to go 6 back a further seven years and look at those words and 7 those programs and review our accomplishments and our 8 challenges for the future, you would be able to put 9 together a consistent vision that regardless of the 10 exact titles of the programs and the hours, what has 11 remained consistent throughout our entire history, 12 effectively since launch, is the intense localism and 13 the sense of community and connection to the street, 14 regardless of the size of the business, regardless of 15 the number of hours. 16 2026 The station is committed to remaining 17 a meaningful and relevant part of our viewers' lives. 18 We have never veered from that path. We have been 19 fortunate enough to have a team creatively, led by 20 Moses, that shares that vision and shares that path. 21 2027 Of course, the community has changed. 22 Our broadcast coverage has changed. Our business has 23 changed. Our programming has flexed over the last 30 24 years through bad times and good times. 25 2028 It is very unusual, and I would
1 suggest probably unique, in the Canadian broadcasting 2 system to have such a consistent vision and creative 3 team in place so that we can remain accountable, first 4 to our viewers, of course, and secondly to the system 5 at large and to Canadians, through you, for what we 6 have done. 7 2029 We are here mostly to celebrate the 8 work of these people that are before you, to discuss 9 the future, to look at choices and options, to openly 10 and completely review the challenges. 11 2030 Whether we were small or large, 12 whether we had a single transmitter or repeaters, we 13 have remained true to our calling. 14 2031 We believe that our place in Toronto 15 and the void we fill, the niche we occupy, remains as 16 important today -- the need for that remains as 17 important today as ever. 18 2032 MR. TAPP: Jay really hit on most of 19 the points. 20 2033 For us, it is believing that you 21 never forget where you came from or what got you there. 22 The Citytv legacy in the city of Toronto -- and in fact 23 worldwide as well but more important to the people of 24 Toronto -- year after year we are voted Toronto's 25 television station. The people of Toronto expect
1 certain things from us. Our viewers expect things from 2 us, and we have an obligation to deliver against that. 3 2034 The level of streetfront 4 interactivity and, more important, accessibility -- 5 which is really part of the architecture of the Citytv 6 model -- is something that is there. That is the 7 framework for moving forward in the future. 8 2035 I would like to say that with all of 9 the challenges that we are faced with in our market, we 10 are still dedicated wholly, entirely to the concept of 11 providing good local, accessible service to our 12 community and to our viewers and to making great 13 television. 14 2036 MR. SWITZER: To add to these 15 answers, your question talked about the vision in the 16 future. There are many markers, many symbols of what 17 we represent and what we believe are a core part of 18 what we are and what we are doing. 19 2037 We intend to remain an alternative to 20 the mainstream conventional traditional television. We 21 intend to provide an alternative to Toronto viewers in 22 that primarily Citytv will be feature film driven, 23 including of course the best Canadian feature films. 24 2038 Our accessibility, interactivity and 25 localism is perhaps the third main key differentiation
1 that sets apart who we are and where we want to go -- 2 not because these things are just necessarily good 3 business choices, if we were to model what viewers are 4 getting, but because we believe these are things not 5 being done by others that we happen to have a passion 6 for and that also can be a good business. 7 2039 MR. ZNAIMER: Mr. Cardozo, it is a 8 well-known fact that I am not the biggest proponent of 9 buying television from elsewhere. The reason for that 10 is that you can't really establish an identity based on 11 material that you acquire from a marketplace which 12 shares material broadly among a large number of 13 outlets. 14 2040 So how does a television station 15 speak? It speaks through its own production. It 16 speaks through its news. It speaks through the 17 programs that it creates. 18 2041 My vision for the future of Citytv is 19 that we continue to add day parts of production that 20 are in our control. That is why we are so agonized by 21 the particular situation in which we find ourselves, 22 because we must overcome this immediate challenge in 23 order to achieve the vision of our future. 24 2042 To the degree that we have already 25 developed a potent news operation, an excellent on-air
1 look and feel, and have opened day parts in the morning 2 to the extent of 45-plus hours a week, the last great 3 hurdle -- and I think the question underlying Chairman 4 Dalfen's last question to me was how to attack prime 5 time. How do you step up to the challenge of doing 6 with fiction what we have already done with reality? 7 2043 Part of it is to be able to program 8 more and more Canadian-made films. We have described 9 some of the mechanisms we have in place to assist 10 others in the making of these films, but we also want 11 to make some of them ourselves. 12 2044 In addition to that, I have some 13 thoughts. In part I hesitated, Chairman Dalfen, 14 because the showman in me has been a little agonized as 15 well, because we keep giving away some of our great 16 announcements. 17 2045 Brad and I and the team in Vancouver 18 are preparing a huge event on June 6th when we were 19 going to make the announcement that we were going to 20 rebrand CKVU as Citytv Vancouver. In the circumstance, 21 we thought it was important to tell you about it first. 22 So we have, and we have let one cat out of our bag. 23 2046 As well, we have an experience of 24 innovating things which then get picked up by our 25 competitors. I have the challenge of trying to
1 describe to you what I think is a radical idea in the 2 creation of fiction, while at the same time not wanting 3 to say too much about it except that it is in the area 4 of bridging real life and fiction. 5 2047 I know this must be difficult to 6 grasp, but internally we use a formula to describe it. 7 We talk about "ficto-facto" and "facto-ficto". 8 2048 You know a little bit about my 9 history, Chairman Dalfen, and you know I was involved 10 in an interesting provocative live presentation -- one 11 would normally call it a theatre piece -- called 12 "Tamara", which was written by John Krizanc, one of our 13 great Canadian writers, directed by Richard Rose. I 14 was the impresario, producer and helped them develop 15 it. 16 2049 It is a piece which, rather than 17 taking place on a proscenium stage in a conventional 18 theatre with the audience seated on their bums at a 19 distance, took place in a real house, with real rooms, 20 in fact three floors, 20 rooms. The audience followed 21 the characters all over the house in real time. 22 2050 This play became quite famous, and it 23 played for over nine years in Los Angeles and three and 24 a half years in New York. It played in Buenos Aires 25 and in San Paulo and in Rome and Warsaw.
1 2051 It bridges this gap between reality 2 and fiction. In the same way that the proscenium stage 3 represents artifice and putting this presentation on in 4 a real house, in a real mansion, Citytv in a way is the 5 antithesis of conventional television done in old 6 fashioned studios. 7 2052 I have a sense I am losing you here. 8 It is a complex story. 9 2053 In any case, we would like to 10 develop, given the right circumstances and the 11 financial base, a form of television that grows out of 12 this Canadian-made experiment, which I believe has 13 enormous potential in combatting the relative formulaic 14 television that comes out of the American system or the 15 Canadian efforts to mimic the American system. 16 2054 I think this idea has a shot at 17 taking the Americans on in prime time, but it does seem 18 to me a little difficult to go on about it, given the 19 immediate circumstances that we face. 20 2055 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you for 21 that answer. 22 2056 MR. SWITZER: You realize that CPAC 23 has been doing "ficto-facto" for years. 24 2057 But anyway, carry on. 25 2058 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let's get into
1 some of the details, and let me ask you if I am 2 understanding your proposal right in this application. 3 2059 When we were talking about the 4 possible cutbacks and the cutting of crews, and so 5 forth, and regionalizing and mixing and matching 6 programs, what you are saying is that if we accept the 7 application as you are putting it forward, that will 8 result in the least cutbacks of this kind as possible. 9 But if we make any additional requirements beyond what 10 you have offered in your application, either in 11 priority programming or local, that will likely result 12 in the need for cutbacks. 13 2060 Is that the basic gist of what you 14 are saying? 15 2061 MR. MILLER: Perhaps I can again 16 divide the two. I think we are saying -- 17 2062 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: "Yes" or "no" 18 would be what we are looking for. 19 2063 MR. MILLER: It is not that simple, 20 I'm afraid, because there are two elements to your 21 question. 22 2064 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: All right. 23 2065 MR. MILLER: With respect to the 24 priority programming, we are saying if you required us 25 to do the eight hours of priority programming, that
1 would cause us to cut back on our local, particularly 2 our local magazine shows. We think that would be 3 unfortunate; not good for us and not good for the 4 system. 5 2066 In terms of our local, we are saying 6 the 18 hours we propose -- which again, as Steve has 7 said, is 35 per cent more than our current commitment 8 -- is a reasonable minimum commitment in the 9 circumstances; the circumstances being the revenue 10 losses we expect to suffer, the savings we therefore 11 have to find, and the fact that our competitors in this 12 market have lower commitments, including the new 13 licensee in Toronto that only has 14 and a half -- 14 2067 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And the prime 15 cause of the difficulty you are facing is the decision 16 for the two licences in Toronto. 17 2068 MR. MILLER: The prime cause of the 18 difficulty we are facing on the local commitment is the 19 new licensing in Toronto. Even if you had not licensed 20 in Toronto, we would have asked for the flexibility on 21 priority programming, and indeed did so in our initial 22 filing. 23 2069 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The other 24 approach at looking at your licence renewal is that 25 since the last licence renewal seven years ago, CHUM
1 has grown considerably. You have broken into the 2 second major English language market of the country in 3 a big way, with two stations. You have all these other 4 specialties. 5 2070 So really there should not be this 6 talk of doom and gloom, the way the company has grown 7 over this period. 8 2071 If we come back to City, your 9 flagship should be looking at moving forward at a 10 higher speed on priority programming. 11 2072 MR. MILLER: Again, we don't share 12 that view. 13 2073 If your question relates to priority 14 programming, we as a group have come to the table with 15 eight hours of priority programming on all our other 16 stations, even though we were not obliged to. While 17 there is a difference of opinion on exactly what is an 18 accurate measure of our reach, there is no difference 19 on opinion that we do not meet the 70 per cent 20 threshold for the larger multi-station groups. 21 2074 All we are asking for is the very 22 flexibility that your policy permits. 23 2075 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: What the 24 policy says is that for the largest stations, we would 25 require them to do eight hours and essentially for the
1 others -- and I think we named CHUM and Craig -- that 2 we would talk to them at licence time. So this is what 3 is up for renewal. 4 2076 We didn't say we would not require 5 you to do eight but that we would discuss this here. 6 2077 MR. SWITZER: Commissioner Cardozo, 7 it is an important point. We talked about it at some 8 length yesterday, and I would like to answer your 9 question and review it today so that you can understand 10 that many of the magazine programs -- and we are 11 primarily talking about those magazine programs -- that 12 we are producing on a weekly basis and that we are 13 running on prime time do not qualify under our 14 interpretation of the current definitions. 15 2078 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Why is that? 16 2079 MR. SWITZER: They don't meet the 17 test. 18 2080 I should say one of them does. Of 19 the approximately 10 hours of magazine programming we 20 are producing each week -- we have been extremely 21 conservative and careful in our categorization -- one 22 program that Marcia Martin supervises, called "Startv", 23 is a weekly magazine show that exclusively discusses 24 Canadian stars and such and passes that specific test 25 that the Commission included in its priority
1 programming. 2 2081 The other magazine shows, to the best 3 of our knowledge, do not meet the test of music, 4 variety, drama, documentary, and so on. 5 2082 We talked about -- and I will use 6 quotation marks for the record -- the possibility of a 7 -- what word did we use yesterday? 8 2083 MR. MILLER: Tweaking. 9 2084 MR. SWITZER: "Tweaking" -- in 10 quotation marks. It is not our desire to do anything 11 ever that is not genuine and reflective of what these 12 shows are trying to do. 13 2085 In many cases these shows deal with 14 single topic episodes that deal with important matters 15 in Canadian music and fashion, and so on. 16 2086 So we are saddled with -- perhaps 17 "saddled" is the wrong word. 18 2087 MR. MILLER: No. It's the right 19 word. 20 2088 MR. SWITZER: We are frustrated with 21 the problem of trying to meet expectations with 22 priority programming while at the same time doing this 23 extraordinary amount of top-notch magazine programs 24 that others, including the CFTPA, have acknowledged are 25 of value, have merit, are contributing in many ways to
1 the system but that do not pass the test. 2 2089 We are trying to balance these 3 sometimes conflicting tradeoffs. 4 2090 That is why the answer isn't an easy 5 "why can't you just do eight and do it like elsewhere". 6 In Toronto, with Citytv, those magazine shows currently 7 playing in prime cause this tension. 8 2091 MR. ZNAIMER: The irony is, of 9 course, that the regulations that we don't apparently 10 meet are really a form of pressure to get us to be the 11 same, like everyone else, while at the same time the 12 Commission says be different, be yourself. 13 2092 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Can I ask you 14 if there is a way to put this differently, and I am 15 thinking of the decision at the end of the day. This 16 is just an exploratory question. It is not at all that 17 what we are saying to you is an offer. We don't 18 negotiate at these hearings. I am just trying 19 different possibilities. 20 2093 Where you have offered six hours for 21 the first three years and seven for the remaining years 22 of your licence, could we say something like: There 23 will be priority planning for six and seven years and 24 something which you might call almost priority, which 25 serves certain purposes. What would those purposes be?
1 2094 I would like you to tell me, which 2 would be that remaining two hours or one hour. 3 2095 And what would you say to us in words 4 would get us up to that eight between priority and 5 let's say almost priority? 6 2096 MR. SWITZER: Commissioner Cardozo, 7 we agree with the principle, and we are here today 8 looking for solutions and options and are open to talk 9 to you about obviously everything. We agree, in 10 principle, that that is a good idea and we would be 11 happy to discuss that. 12 2097 I think the exact wording, to give 13 you comfort as to what those magazine shows should be 14 or could be in a way that is both specific but gives us 15 flexibility and gives the Commission comfort that they 16 will play in prime time and that they are somehow near 17 priority, I think we could come up with a description 18 that would satisfy you. 19 2098 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: If you have 20 anything you can share with us by the end of the 21 hearing, that would be helpful. 22 2099 What I am getting at is not the issue 23 that it meet this little term called "priority" but 24 that it meet the objectives of what we are trying to 25 get out for the Canadian public, for the viewers.
1 2100 MR. SWITZER: We agree with this 2 direction, and we would be happy to follow up 3 immediately. 4 2101 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Let me ask you 5 a few questions about local programming. Again, we are 6 sort of reworking some of the things we have discussed, 7 but I am trying to move it along a little bit again, 8 just focusing on City. 9 2102 Could you get back to us with a 10 listing of your 18 local programs in Toronto. I 11 understand there are 4 which would be local news and 14 12 non-local news, such as "Breakfast TV", "City Pulse at 13 Noon", the local news, and then you have "Cityline", 14 "Ed the Sock", and so forth. 15 2103 These are all running on City. What 16 I would like to know is which ones of these run 17 elsewhere, either on other conventionals or on other 18 specialties of yours, and give us a sense of the repeat 19 factors of those shows elsewhere; if they run on any 20 other Canadian services; and last, if they run 21 internationally. 22 2104 I would like a sense of the 23 repurposing of the local programming. 24 2105 MR. SWITZER: Yes, Commissioner 25 Cardozo, we of course will do that. I think that
1 amount of detail might be difficult to supply by the 2 end of the hearing. We can certainly give you top line 3 by the end of the hearing and details within the ten 4 days that had been previously discussed. 5 2106 Of course, much of this will be us 6 pulling it from various pages on the regional 7 application, to make it easy for your analysis. We 8 will do our best. 9 2107 One further addition, Commissioner, 10 is that clearly and obviously there will be a 11 particular overlap on some of these Canadian magazine 12 shows between the CKVU schedule and the Citytv 13 schedule. 14 2108 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But they would 15 not appear local on both. 16 2109 MR. MILLER: Correct. 17 2110 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: They would be 18 local to Toronto. 19 2111 MR. MILLER: Correct. 20 2112 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: It is fair to 21 say -- maybe it is an obvious thing to say -- that a 22 key part of the business model of the CHUM empire is 23 this repurposing, multi-windowing of programming. 24 2113 I think yesterday you were talking 25 about making a channel out of a program, where you
1 start a program in one place that then runs elsewhere. 2 So there is quite a creative and a financial synergy 3 that you have created in the stable of properties. 4 2114 MR. SWITZER: Yes, it is a strength; 5 it is an advantage. It has been part of all of our 6 applications. As we discussed yesterday, in part it 7 allows us to put as much on the screen as possible and, 8 in the case of specialty channels, keep our wholesale 9 rates much lower than our competitors. 10 2115 We are trying to exploit it, of 11 course, at every opportunity in addition to 12 legitimately excluding the business reasons, the 13 creative and programming reasons, why we want as many 14 Canadians as possible to see shows that we are 15 producing right across the country. 16 2116 MR. MILLER: Just to put it in 17 perspective for Citytv, of the roughly 45 hours of 18 local we are producing and airing right now, 22.5 hours 19 of that, roughly, would be news shown only on City. 20 2117 There are some synergies between City 21 and CP24, of course. What I am saying is 22.5 hours of 22 local news on City. Of the remaining 22.5 hours, a 23 majority of it would be seen elsewhere, either just 24 national, say, in a show like "Cityline", or 25 international in the case of our eight to ten hours of
1 magazine shows. 2 2118 That is the kind of breakdown we will 3 get into when we give you our filing. 4 2119 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: If you were to 5 look at the financial statements that you have provided 6 to us, where you have a line for news and a line for 7 other programming, to what extent are those expenses 8 exclusive to City and are they shared by others? 9 2120 I think I understood at one point 10 that the figures that show up on the City program 11 expenditures are the amount that would be allotted to 12 City, and if somebody else, like Bravo or City Pulse or 13 CP24 is paying for part of it, that would show 14 separately as opposed to it showing as a separate 15 revenue item for City. 16 2121 Do you know what I mean? 17 2122 MR. SWITZER: I think I understand 18 the question. 19 2123 In the case of Citytv, what you are 20 asking about, only the remaining costs of Canadian 21 productions are included in the line, as discussed with 22 the Vice-Chair yesterday. Any sub-licensing or sharing 23 inside the CHUM family of stations, those stations will 24 pay their appropriate percentage of that cost, either 25 by value, advertising ratings, and the remaining costs
1 are those that remain on City, with the exception of 2 the small amounts of sales to third parties which does 3 not come off these cost totals. 4 2124 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I want to talk 5 now about the number of hours of local programming that 6 you have put forward. I think Commissioner Wylie 7 talked about the conundrum we have as the regulator. 8 In the January 18th letter you outlined the amount you 9 are doing and the amount you would have done had there 10 been no stations licensed and the amount you would do 11 with one station licensed. 12 2125 This morning on my way to the hearing 13 I stopped at Starbucks for a coffee, and I saw that 14 they have something that is quite similar to what you 15 are proposing. This is how it goes. 16 2126 This is your commitment from the last 17 licence, 13.36. This is what you will do, 18. This is 18 what you said you are prepared to do. This is called 19 the tall; this is called the short. 20 2127 Then you have the grande, which you 21 would have done if there were no licences. And this is 22 what you say you are doing, which is the venti. 23 2128 Mr. Lombardi confirmed with me that 24 venti means 20 ounces. So this is large and 20 ounces. 25 2129 The guy thought it was a strange
1 request that I would be asking for cups. I told him 2 what it was about, but I'm not sure he understood. 3 2130 Then he said, "Do you want the half 4 measure?" 5 --- Laughter / Rires 6 2131 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I thought for 7 a second and said, "Why not." The half measure is what 8 you would be doing if you didn't meet the 13.36. 9 2132 Let's say the discussion comes down 10 to this. You say we have never been there; the half 11 measure is out. You say the 13.36 is there on paper. 12 So it leaves me wondering how on earth we agreed to 13 that. But anyhow, that was then, and that is aside. 14 You are saying the 29 is out because we have licensed 15 two stations. So you are in this worst case or 16 nightmare, or "cry me a river" scenario, whatever it 17 is. 18 2133 So we are talking 18 or 45. Our 19 decision is going to say: CHUM is doing 45, but we, the 20 Commission, only want them to do 18. And you are only 21 really saying you are committing to 18. 22 2134 The hard part is how do we justify 23 this? Eighteen is less than 45. 24 2135 What can we say? Do I understand 25 that you are saying: Please let us off with a
1 commitment for 18 for the tall, but you really hope you 2 are going to be doing the venti? 3 2136 MR. ZNAIMER: We are saying it will 4 never go below the 18. It might well end up at the one 5 you removed, the one in the middle. 6 2137 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The 29. 7 2138 MR. ZNAIMER: Yes. 8 2139 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So this can 9 get back in. 10 2140 MR. ZNAIMER: More important, I would 11 think the Commission would want to be more encouraging 12 of people who do more and freezing them into that is a 13 guarantee that every other licensee will only ever do 14 the minimum. 15 2141 To reward us for having moved forward 16 by freezing us into that position, I think would be 17 extremely unfortunate. 18 2142 MR. MILLER: If I could add -- and I 19 guess we have gone through this many times. 20 2143 To sum up, all we are asking for is 21 what your policy said was the case, which is you don't 22 need specific COLs on local unless licensees have 23 failed to perform adequately in the past. 24 2144 We have not only not been in that 25 position, but as the record shows, again to go back to
1 the 13.36 hours of news, we started in 1995-96 with 2 14.5 hours. We grew that because we kept building our 3 news, to a peak in 1998-99 of 23 hours and 45 minutes. 4 It now rests at about 22 hours, 43 minutes. 5 2145 All we are saying is that over the 6 next seven years give us the flexibility, as your 7 policy said you would give, for us to do what we need 8 to do. 9 2146 Our assurance to you is that in no 10 circumstance will it go below 18, a threshold that 11 again is higher than CFTO Toronto, is higher than CIII 12 Global, which is actually regional, not local, and is 13 even higher than the new station in Toronto, Toronto 14 One, at 14.5. 15 2147 Your policy said that beyond specific 16 incentives where people have failed, the market will 17 determine. And that is all we are asking. 18 2148 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So what could 19 we say in a decision: that it is the A-team that you 20 have committed to and that you are hoping to maintain 21 the 45? 22 2149 MR. SWITZER: I am not sure that is 23 appropriate. Let's talk about one or two examples just 24 in the past year. 25 2150 We have in the past two years, I
1 think, added on a significant number of hours in our 2 morning show. Part of that is news; part of that is 3 non-news. It used to start at 7:00 in the morning. A 4 little while ago it started at 6:30 in the morning, and 5 I believe last year we pushed it back to a 6:00 a.m. 6 start, at significant additional cost and resources. 7 2151 We did it because we wanted to grow 8 and serve the market. But perhaps if we were more -- 9 what is the right word? I should choose my adjectives 10 carefully here -- machiavellian, we would have not done 11 that. We would have said: Oh my goodness, that is 12 going to take us from 39 hours to 45 hours. Won't that 13 look just terrible. Let's just delay it and do it the 14 month -- that is not the way this group operates. We 15 produce television and want to grow our business. 16 2152 The record is so superb in terms of 17 over-achievement of hours, we come to you wanting to 18 have an open and complete discussion. 19 2153 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I understand 20 that. 21 2154 MR. SWITZER: I understand you need 22 measurables to be able to write into a decision, and we 23 want to work with you on those kinds of solutions. I 24 don't think an expectation of continuing 45 hours would 25 get us down that road.
1 2155 We are not trying to be evasive in 2 terms of wanting to make very specific our desire to 3 continue to do more. 4 2156 MR. MILLER: Perhaps I could give a 5 suggestion as to what you can write in the decision. 6 2157 You can write that despite revenue 7 suggestions that suggest Citytv could lose as much as 8 -- and Peter knows the precise number, something like 9 $6 million a year -- and that our revenue could be down 10 closer to $70 million from the $76 million that it is, 11 we propose and are committed to increase our minimum 12 local commitments by 35 per cent, to 18 hours. 13 2158 That would look good. 14 2159 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you for 15 that. 16 2160 Do you have any sense of which 17 programs you might be dropping if you have to drop any? 18 2161 MR. SWITZER: In a word, 19 Commissioner, no. 20 2162 MR. SHERRATT: Commissioner Cardozo, 21 I would like to stay with your coffee cups for a 22 minute. 23 2163 Currently, the terms of reference for 24 our coffee business is to do a small cup. We have been 25 able to be successful enough in recent years to not
1 only exceed the small cup but make good coffee, really 2 good coffee, and fill the big 20-ounce cup. 3 2164 Right now it is factual that our 4 revenue is going to go down. Are we going to better 5 serve the public by making coffee so weak that it will 6 fill the big cup but nobody will want to drink it, or 7 are we better off to get somewhere in the middle, 8 wherever we can find ourselves, to do the job that the 9 public will still like our coffee and we will still 10 have a good business, and we will keep Starbucks in 11 business? 12 2165 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You are going 13 to find a Canadian version of Starbucks, though, aren't 14 you? 15 2166 I appreciate that, and I don't mean 16 to be beating up on you for doing more than your 17 commitment. I am just trying to get a clear picture of 18 what your commitment is. It is becoming clear as we go 19 along, but it is also in our nature to push for as much 20 as possible for the Canadian viewer. 21 2167 Just one quick question on script and 22 concept development. Your commitment of 150,000 at 23 City carries on for the licence period? 24 2168 MR. SWITZER: Yes, it does, 25 Commissioner.
1 2169 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: On Canadian 2 feature films, you had said in your January 18th letter 3 that you were firmly committed to airing 100 hours of 4 long form Canadian films in prime time each year. 5 2170 The next question was: Would you 6 accept this as a condition of licence? 7 2171 Then it seemed you didn't want it 8 quite so specific, and you said that if it was a 9 condition of licence you would want it to say "all 10 forms of Canadian long form features, including 11 theatrical features, feature length documentaries, 12 MOWs, et cetera". 13 2172 MR. SWITZER: Perhaps I can add some 14 clarity. 15 2173 We have in the past not been complete 16 in our look at the way the Commission categorizes 17 various forms of movies. We have always included all 18 types of movies, and that response was not in any way 19 evasive but was to be very clear that when we say long 20 form, feature film, movie, we are including all the 21 areas of "movies" -- I say in quotation marks -- that 22 we continue to support, including a small number of 23 feature length documentaries, made for television 24 movies and theatrically released feature films. 25 2174 That is our working definition of
1 movies, and we wanted to make sure that there was no 2 misunderstanding. 3 2175 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That is in 4 Categories 7C, 7D, 7E and then the category, which I 5 think is 2A, which is a different category. 6 2176 MR. SWITZER: I believe so, yes. 7 2177 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Would you be 8 able to say that the feature films -- the 7C, 7D, 7E -- 9 would be any percentage of that; 75 per cent? 10 2178 I know you don't like getting boxed 11 into figures here. 12 2179 MR. SWITZER: I think we would look 13 back at our track record, and Diane or Ellen would 14 certainly have the details. There have been a small 15 number of feature length documentaries, probably under 16 a dozen in total. 17 2180 I don't think it would be productive 18 to discuss limits or restrictions. 19 2181 I think if you were to look at our 20 list, which we did file in terms of our number of 21 theatrical feature films, our number of made for 22 television movies and our small number of feature 23 length documentaries over the past seven years, you 24 would find comfort in that. 25 2182 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You would
1 understand that in a condition of licence we would have 2 difficulty with the word "et cetera". That could 3 include a whole lot of things, including -- 4 2183 MR. SWITZER: Yes. We are happy to 5 live without any "et ceteras". 6 2184 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: On ethnic 7 programming, I have a question that I asked earlier. I 8 wonder if you could share with me as to how you see 9 that evolving over the course of the next licence. 10 2185 MR. SWITZER: I would like Stephen 11 Tapp and his creative team to talk to you about their 12 creative plans, how the channel will grow and what's 13 new. 14 2186 MR. TAPP: As you have heard already, 15 the ethnic programming component on City is a very 16 important part of our schedule; doing ten hours a week 17 with the ten different languages and cultures 18 represented has been to date a very good representation 19 of the community at large in terms of the community 20 that we serve. 21 2187 It is something that we believe in. 22 It is something that we are committed to continuing. 23 2188 Ethnic programming for us really is 24 part of the foundation of where Citytv came from. 25 2189 I don't know if Ellen Baine wants to
1 talk about future potential programming, but I might 2 throw it to her to see if she has anything to add. 3 2190 MS BAINE: Thank you, Steve. 4 2191 As we mentioned this morning, because 5 of the excellent initiatives that are going on at VU, 6 we are going to have a look at what kind of programs 7 they are going to be doing and hopefully import some of 8 them into Ontario, as well. 9 2192 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you. 10 2193 Finally, I have a question on closed 11 captioning. This is just a clarification. 12 2194 When we talk about 100 per cent of 13 closed captioning, what it needs to be is that it is 14 100 per cent of all news. I believe what you have is 15 100 per cent of your news commitment and then there was 16 not necessarily 100 per cent of the rest. 17 2195 On a going forward basis, whatever 18 the news you do, whether it is the amount you have 19 agreed to or more, the closed captioning is 100 per 20 cent of that. 21 2196 MR. MILLER: Yes. 22 2197 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you. 23 Those are my questions. 24 2198 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 25 2199 THE CHAIRPERSON: I believe
1 Commissioner Wylie has a follow-up. 2 2200 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: I would like to 3 know a little better what your interpretation of the TV 4 policy is. It is used in various ways. For example, 5 you say we don't have to do eight hours of priority 6 programming in Toronto because we are not a 7 multi-station group. 8 2201 Mr. Znaimer, you also say you are 9 leading us to do more priority programming, because 10 that is what you have put importance on, at the expense 11 of local. 12 2202 I think I heard you say that. Resist 13 if I am paraphrasing incorrectly. 14 2203 I am not convinced that that is what 15 the TV policy said. 16 2204 In paragraph 15 it said: 17 "The smaller multi-station 18 ownership groups..." 19 2205 Which you want to be by your 20 calculations, or by whatever means. 21 "...such as CHUM...Craig and 22 TQS... generally offer program 23 schedules that differ from that 24 of the largest groups. The 25 Commission wishes to encourage
1 such distinctiveness and provide 2 the smaller players in the 3 system with the flexibility to 4 experiment with new genres of 5 Canadian programming and new 6 ways to meet the needs of their 7 audiences." 8 2206 I think it would be fair to say 9 throughout the years that as you increased the number 10 of your conventional stations, you sold the idea of 11 diversity, and so on. But then when you bought another 12 station or asked for a new licence, what you put 13 forward as benefits was: We will do the eight hours of 14 priority programming as if we were a large 15 multi-station group. 16 2207 The dilemma now is the use of the 17 policy to say we are not a large multi-station group by 18 any calculation, but we are doing priority programming 19 anyway. So you can't ask us to also do diversity in 20 what we always sold ourselves as and entered new 21 markets and acquired new stations on the basis of being 22 different. 23 2208 The concern now is are you going to 24 move away from different and closer to national so that 25 what was intended in that paragraph of the policy -- it
1 never said small station groups have to do priority 2 programming. It said they can be flexible and offer 3 something different in the market. 4 2209 The concern is that by moving down 5 the line of Commissioner Cardozo's cups, the goal in 6 paragraph 15 disappears. The messages are quite mixed. 7 2210 You made some choices about doing 8 priority programming anyway, and they were accepted. 9 Now you say you don't have to do it in Toronto. And 10 where you would cut is where you were different and not 11 like a large multi-station group, more being closer to 12 a national and probably leading to, I suppose, a desire 13 to reach that 70 per cent and get more and be a 14 network, too. 15 2211 I don't know if Mr. Znaimer will be 16 able to live long enough to prevent you from doing that 17 if you start it now. 18 2212 MR. SWITZER: Vice-Chair Wylie, let 19 me begin. 20 2213 First of all, we are extremely 21 blessed and privileged to have been given the 22 opportunity to both build and to acquire stations, many 23 stations, in the past few years, and it is indeed a 24 privilege. 25 2214 It is also never our intent to
1 misinterpret or abuse matters of policy in any way. 2 2215 We have talked today about many 3 things. I think the line that we are going down, that 4 we went down today with Commissioner Cardozo about 5 possibly coming up with some kind of top-up mechanism 6 towards eight hours, would both recognize the 7 importance of many of the local magazine shows we are 8 doing and deal with the overall matter of priority 9 programming. 10 2216 We appreciated Chairman Dalfen's 11 opening comments yesterday when he specifically 12 acknowledged the opportunity for innovative, unique and 13 distinctive programming that is expected, to 14 paraphrase, for mid-size players, and it is our 15 responsibility to do that. 16 2217 In the case of some of the western 17 stations, we volunteered to accept eight hours of 18 priority programming because we felt in those 19 particular transactions, either because of existing 20 conditions or other reasons, it was the right thing to 21 do, in the same way why we believe the right thing to 22 do, perhaps, in the Toronto market is to acknowledge 23 the value of these particular magazine programs, 24 acknowledge the priority programming that we have 25 volunteered and work toward solving this problem.
1 2218 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: I was trying to 2 take the other side of the argument of why you are not 3 doing eight hours of priority programming in Toronto. 4 2219 You will recall that eight hours of 5 priority programming on The NewNet stations is as a 6 result of the Victoria application. This was part of 7 what you put on the table as enriching your 8 application. So these were choices that were made. 9 2220 There is a bit of a contradiction. 10 Mr. Znaimer raised it yesterday: You are moving us 11 away from what we were. 12 2221 You said the cause of that is the 13 licensing in Toronto, but I say convince us that it is 14 not also your reaction; that your reaction to that is 15 to find the flexibility. You have given arguments why, 16 to move away from the paragraph I just read you, and 17 what is supposedly your mission in the broadcasting 18 system as intended by the policy that is usually 19 tweaked according to one's desire to make a point. 20 2222 MR. ZNAIMER: At the risk of 21 complicating things even further, while we talk about 22 the CHUM group of over the air television stations, we 23 in fact have two titles within them. There is the 24 Citytv title, and there is The NewNet title. 25 2223 On a continuum that might begin at a
1 conventional network affiliate, such as we would 2 recognize in a CTV or a Global on the one side and 3 Citytv on the extreme other end, The NewNet stations 4 fall somewhere in between. 5 2224 It is actually easier for The NewNet 6 stations to achieve the eight hours of priority. 7 2225 Citytv, as a title, is more 8 different. The fact that we have the eight hours of 9 priority in Vancouver is simply an inheritance issue. 10 When we acquired the station, we acquired the eight 11 hours of priority. 12 2226 MS MARTIN: Can I just say something 13 re priority programming? Maybe I can give you an 14 example of what I think we are talking about. 15 2227 Our magazine shows can be frustrating 16 when a show like "MovieTelevision", which has been a 17 leader in promoting and celebrating feature films for 18 over 14 years -- it is a team that does this every 19 week. We tell a Canadian story, at least one Canadian 20 story. 21 2228 It is also a team that does specials 22 throughout the year that contributes a great deal to 23 what we are all about. It balances, as well, with the 24 movie programming that Citytv exhibits. 25 2229 It is a team that produces, as you
1 have heard, a 90-minute live show that devotes itself 2 to Canadian films and its filmmakers. In that 90 3 minutes we are able to provide clips on movies that 4 most of our Canadian audiences don't see. They don't 5 see a lot of trailers. 6 2230 When you consider that this country 7 does maybe 30 or 40 Canadian films a year and yet we 8 devote every week features on this community, it is the 9 contribution of this kind of show that we feel is a 10 priority program. It is a unit that also does specials 11 on the Quebec film industry. 12 2231 We did a one-hour special with André 13 Toupin, documenting the beginning of his film, right to 14 the premier and then to the award winning Genies. 15 2232 I think contribution is a part of 16 something that we can and should look at when we are 17 dealing with priority programs and what City does from 18 a unique point of view in their magazine shows. 19 2233 MR. MILLER: Could I add, 20 Commissioner Wylie, we recognize that your policy was 21 of necessity a balancing also of competing interests. 22 So as we approached the proceedings we have been before 23 you on with respect to new licence applications and 24 acquisitions, we came to that with a spirit of trying 25 to meet what you clearly had identified as one of your
1 biggest priorities in your policy, and that was the 2 priority programming obligations and, at the same time, 3 being true to our differences. 4 2234 We are a smaller multi-station group. 5 I think while there might be some difference of opinion 6 as to how close to that threshold we are, there is no 7 disagreement that we are not a smaller multi-station 8 group. 9 2235 As Commissioner Cardozo pointed out, 10 while the obligations of the larger multi-station 11 groups are very clear, the obligations of the smaller 12 ones are not. 13 2236 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Make your own 14 niche over time. 15 2237 MR. MILLER: Precisely. And that is 16 exactly what we have tried to do in being true to what 17 we identified, and you reiterated, are some of the key 18 objectives of the policy but also be true to ourselves. 19 2238 Our differences are differences on 20 many levels, as I think we have tried to describe to 21 you and as I think we will continue to describe to you 22 through the rest of our presentations today. 23 2239 One of the elements of our 24 differences is local. Volume is only part of that 25 difference.
1 2240 We have a great cup of coffee. 2 Whether it is a big one or a small one, it is still a 3 great cup of coffee. We are different in so many other 4 ways, be they more culturally diverse, more long form 5 based, in the case of NewNet more action-adventure 6 based. 7 2241 We are different, and that difference 8 remains, whether or not the cup of coffee is as large 9 as we want it to be. 10 2242 To close -- and I hope I haven't 11 paraphrased the policy incorrectly when I answered 12 Commissioner Cardozo's question -- I remain puzzled by 13 the dilemma we are in in terms of the minimum 14 commitments. 15 2243 As I look at paragraph 63 of the 16 policy, it says: 17 "All licensees will be required 18 to demonstrate, at licensing, or 19 in their licence renewal 20 applications, how they propose 21 to meet the demands and reflect 22 the interests of their local 23 audiences." 24 2244 We are trying to do that for you 25 today.
1 "As in the past, if the 2 Commission determines that 3 licensees have failed to respond 4 to legitimate community needs, 5 appropriate action including the 6 imposition of specific 7 conditions of licence may be 8 taken on a case by case basis." 9 2245 Why our track record is important is 10 that I don't think by any measure we fall into that 11 category. 12 2246 What we are saying to you simply 13 today is we want to retain that difference. The size 14 of the cup of coffee may not be as big as we want it to 15 be, but the cup of coffee is just part of the meal. 16 The meal includes many other elements. 17 2247 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: The concern I 18 was expressing was your repeated reference to this is X 19 more than Global, X more than CTV while you are telling 20 us you are not yet CTV or Global; you are something 21 else. So of course the response is: How different? 22 2248 Don't use the 15.5 hours necessarily 23 as the baseline; use the history and how you got to 24 where you are and how you sold yourself in the market, 25 which was part of the reason why you got to where you
1 are. 2 2249 So the reference point of the 3 multi-station group, which you say you are not -- then 4 the point of reference should be your niche, your 5 mission. What you have told us in the past as your 6 size changed by regulatory approval, et cetera, based 7 on certain mission that you told us you would follow or 8 certain goals you would have, which would add diversity 9 to the broadcasting system. 10 2250 That is the spirit of my comment. 11 2251 MR. SWITZER: Commissioner Wylie, we 12 understand your point, and we will do our best to 13 continue to do that today. 14 2252 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 15 2253 Commissioner Langford, you have a 16 follow-up? Go ahead. 17 2254 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Just one 18 short question. 19 2255 Mr. Miller, is your reading of 20 paragraph 63, which you just quoted, that our 21 discretion is limited by the fact that that verb is in 22 the past tense; that if what we hear from you today 23 leads us to anticipate some inadequacy in that area, we 24 couldn't act now; that we would have to wait seven 25 years? We had a clear sense, based on the historic
1 approach that Madam Wylie was discussing, that there 2 would be an inadequacy going forward. 3 2256 Are you suggesting that we are so 4 tied, so bound by the tense of that verb that we could 5 do nothing about it here today? 6 2257 MR. MILLER: No, not at all. I am 7 just using your words. I am just suggesting that our 8 track record of exceeding your minimum commitments is 9 your best assurance going forward, and that the size of 10 the cup of coffee isn't the only factor in making that 11 determination as to whether we are meeting the needs of 12 our communities. 13 2258 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But our duty, 14 wouldn't you agree, like the God Janus, is to look both 15 forwards and backwards? 16 2259 MR. SWITZER: Absolutely, 17 Commissioner Langford. We are here for a complete and 18 open discussion. Written policy is, I am sure, just 19 one of the tools you have before you. 20 2260 MR. SHERRATT: Commissioner Langford, 21 I think what they are saying is that in order to look 22 forward, sometimes you need to look backwards. 23 2261 We are saying that if you look 24 backwards at our track record, that is the best 25 assurance you will ever have of what is going to happen
1 in the future. 2 2262 I remember sitting in a hearing 3 20-odd years ago when we were buying Citytv, and 4 Commissioner Fabish at the time was doing the 5 interrogation. He looked at Alan Waters and he looked 6 at me and back at Alan, and he started into something. 7 We got nervous. 8 2263 He said, "I have checked the record 9 of every single hearing that you have appeared at since 10 you first got into this business." There was a long 11 pause, and you thought there is something coming out of 12 the woodwork. He said, "I've discovered that you have 13 fulfilled every single commitment you ever made to the 14 regulator." 15 2264 That is what we intend to do. 16 2265 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you for 17 that. 18 2266 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 19 2267 Commissioner Grauer. 20 2268 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you. 21 2269 I want to ask some questions on CKVU. 22 What I would like to do, given that we are well past 23 our original schedule -- you have elaborated quite 24 extensively on the benefits programming, and what I 25 don't want to do is really talk about that. I may have
1 some questions on the benefits at the very end, but 2 let's stay focused on CKVU going forward presently and 3 going forward, apart from benefits expenditures, other 4 hours or dollars, if we could. 5 2270 Maybe you can help me. In looking at 6 your revised financial operations, I am not quite sure 7 I completely understand it. 8 2271 With CKVU you have local programming 9 savings, 44.5 per cent. What I am wondering is if we 10 look at what I understand is a baseline local 11 programming figure of 11.5 hours, 10 hours, 11 hours, 12 something like that, where would you expect to make 13 economies there in CKVU? 14 2272 MR. MILLER: In the case of CKVU 15 there are three things. 16 2273 First of all, we obviously would not 17 cut our commitment to hours. That is a firm 18 commitment, and we are expecting it to become a 19 condition of licence as a result of this hearing or a 20 firm commitment as a result of this hearing. 21 2274 Second, as we indicated earlier, we 22 have looked for a target in terms of achievements of 23 cost savings across the CHUM television group and tried 24 to allocate it fairly across the group, as appropriate. 25 2275 I can tell you we haven't spent a lot
1 of time on any individual stations. So if we 2 discovered, for example, that the projections we filed 3 were not adequate to meet the commitments we have made 4 to you, then obviously the actuals would be different. 5 2276 What we can again confirm is that we 6 have tried to make sure, based on the limited amount of 7 time we had to prepare these revised financials, that 8 they are, at first blush, reasonable to meet the 9 commitments we made to you. 10 2277 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: If I look at 11 the CKVU revised financials, Sections 3.1 and 3.4, and 12 City financials -- and I think it is important to look 13 at these comparatively, because this is your group: 14 City-Vancouver/City-Toronto -- and I look at the 15 revenue figure, which is sort of flat and decreases at 16 Citytv, presumably this is where you are going to feel 17 the biggest impact. 18 2278 You argued that this is where you are 19 going to feel the biggest impact of these new stations. 20 2279 MR. MILLER: Correct. 21 2280 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: And your 22 revenue increases at CKVU. Then your operating 23 expenses actually decrease at both stations. 24 2281 If we go down to net income or loss 25 after taxes, you appear to be generating far more
1 profits from CKVU than from City at the end of the 2 licence term after all of this. 3 2282 Is that correct? 4 2283 MR. MILLER: Those numbers may come 5 out that way. I think, however, it is also important 6 to note that we are starting from a base with CKVU that 7 is $4 million lower than we had expected when we filed 8 our transfer application. It means it is going to take 9 us a couple of years to go back to where we thought we 10 were going to be in revenues. 11 2284 I think, as is evident from the 12 financials for all of our stations, we don't seek to 13 achieve a particular profitability at any station. 14 Each station is at its own place in the cycle of 15 maturity, if you will. Each has its own challenges. 16 2285 Obviously, part of the strength of a 17 corporate group is that you can have, to some extent, 18 internal cross-subsidies. 19 2286 What we have tried to do here is 20 ensure that in every station -- and if you look at CFPL 21 or CHRO, we have put in the operational and programming 22 expenses necessary to do the job. So that is what we 23 have done with VU, as we have done with any other 24 station. 25 2287 While numerically the answer to your
1 question may well be that there is a difference, that 2 is not something that we feel is inappropriate, given 3 our need to ensure that every market is served 4 appropriately. 5 2288 MR. PALFRAMAN: Commissioner Grauer, 6 perhaps I can help clarify that a little in terms of 7 the bottom line. 8 2289 The reason that you see that 9 differential between VU and Citytv and the revised 10 projections is primarily because it's on City that the 11 biggest revenue losses are experienced. 12 2290 So the revenue losses that we see 13 going out to year 7 that impact on City, and 14 effectively go right through the bottom line, are in 15 excess of $10 million. 16 2291 If you compare with our original 17 projections that we filed pre the licensing of two new 18 stations in Toronto, you would see that the bottom line 19 for City is more in line with the revised projections 20 for VU. 21 2292 Essentially, the real reason is that 22 City experiences the largest impact in revenue losses. 23 2293 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you. 24 2294 MR. SWITZER: Commissioner Grauer, 25 could I just add one further point of clarification,
1 because I think this is also important. 2 2295 You talked about net income after 3 taxes. That is also after interest payments. Interest 4 is a new thing to us; debt is a new thing to us. 5 2296 We have chosen in this model to take 6 the appropriate debt that this division has and spread 7 it evenly between all the television stations using 8 revenue, I believe, as a proxy for this particular 9 model. 10 2297 You will see that the interest 11 charges in the CKVU model begin at roughly $1 million a 12 year and work their way down. 13 2298 Clearly, I don't have to point out 14 that that would perhaps be 10 per cent of the interest 15 costs that we would be paying to continue this. 16 2299 So in that way, not that I would 17 suggest that it is artificial; it isn't. But because 18 of our choice of the way we have shared the interest 19 burden, that also affects the particular bottom line of 20 VU. 21 2300 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you. 22 2301 I wonder if you could tell me where 23 we are with -- I understand you are waiting to launch 24 the new programming and branding on the 6th of June. 25 It is unfortunate, because I would have thought licence
1 renewal hearings were an appropriate time to be talking 2 about what you will be doing going forward. 3 2302 Perhaps we just have to work with 4 what we have here, and maybe you can help me with this. 5 2303 What we have here -- we had your 6 program grid that you filed, and I also have one that I 7 got off the Web site. 8 2304 Essentially, we are in the old 9 licence term, so you are still operating under the old 10 COLs with respect to local programming and whatnot? 11 2305 Is that correct? 12 2306 MR. MILLER: That's correct. 13 2307 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: There is not 14 really too much to talk about. 15 2308 How many hours of local news are you 16 currently doing? 17 2309 MR. PHILLIPS: We are currently at 10 18 hours, 57 minutes up to 15.5 in our new schedule. 19 2310 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Pardon me? 20 2311 MR. PHILLIPS: Up to 15.5 in our new 21 schedule. 22 2312 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: The 15.5 is 23 actually hours that are being financed by public 24 benefits, the incremental hours. Is that correct? 25 2313 MR. MILLER: I don't have all that in
1 front of me, but the public record on the VU decision 2 is clear on that. 3 2314 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: If I look at 4 your schedule -- and correct me if I am wrong. I had 5 to do this myself. I think when you file some of the 6 information that you have discussed with both 7 Commissioner Wylie and Commissioner Cardozo, it will be 8 helpful. 9 2315 You have group acquired programming, 10 which is about 22.5 hours, if I look through Cityline, 11 Book Television, Startv, MovieTelevision, and whatnot, 12 and that is coded local in Toronto. 13 2316 So it is like Toronto local 14 programming? 15 2317 MR. MILLER: It is local to Toronto, 16 because it is produced locally in Toronto. 17 2318 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Then we have 18 3.5 hours a week of a show called "Rogers New Reality", 19 that is apparently produced by CKVR. 20 2319 Is that correct? 21 2320 MR. PHILLIPS: That is correct. 22 2321 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: What I can't 23 seem to find on the program grid -- and perhaps you 24 could point it out to me. If you are operating under 25 the current licence, it requires 24 hours and 30
1 minutes of children's programming. 2 2322 Is that correct? 3 2323 MR. MILLER: That was an expectation 4 that we didn't feel it was appropriate for us to 5 concern ourselves with, given the reasons that we 6 discussed yesterday. 7 2324 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: If I am trying 8 to get a sense of your programming going forward, apart 9 from benefits, you are proposing to maintain the same 10 level of local programming. 11 2325 MR. MILLER: No. I'm sorry I am not 12 here with the details to deal with the benefits versus 13 non-benefits. I can get that information if it is 14 important. I just don't have it in front of me. 15 2326 I think we indicated clearly in our 16 application for transfer that of the new local 17 commitments, both news and non-news, some were the 18 results of the benefit monies; some were things that 19 were, in a sense, intangible benefits. So the benefits 20 of our acquisition both included the tangible benefits 21 of the money, some of which went to those increases in 22 programming, and the intangible benefits of agreeing to 23 bring it up. 24 2327 If you need to get into that 25 division, I will look for it for you. I just don't
1 have it in front of me right now. 2 2328 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: What I am 3 trying to do is really get an understanding of your 4 plans for CKVU going forward, separate and apart from 5 benefits. 6 2329 What I think is really important to 7 understand here is these magazine shows -- and this is 8 where it gets very confusing, because there has been 9 discussion about cutting the local programming in 10 Toronto and some question of putting these magazine 11 shows that were in some jeopardy, given the licensing 12 of the two stations -- and yet at the same time they 13 form a very central core of the programming for CKVU. 14 2330 I am finding it very difficult, and I 15 have found it very difficult to understand: Are these 16 local Toronto shows? Are they part of your Canadian 17 programming for these two stations? If so, they can't 18 be intensely locally reflective of Toronto, and some of 19 them are marketed internationally. 20 2331 Again, it is not to be critical at 21 all of the content of the shows but to really get a 22 sense of what is so intensely local now about CKVU that 23 is different from what it was, and where these Toronto 24 local shows fit into the CKVU schedule. 25 2332 If we are operating under the
1 existing licence, there is an expectation of the 2 children's programming. So if you don't feel it is 3 appropriate to go forward with that, perhaps there is 4 something else that might be appropriate to go forward 5 with. 6 2333 MR. MILLER: Commissioner Grauer, we 7 are in a transition here. I think the Commission saw, 8 for example, when it accepted Global's applications for 9 acquisition of CHCH and CHEK and the other WIC 10 stations, that there was a transition period. 11 2334 In fact, if I remember correctly, the 12 period between the approval of that transfer and their 13 ultimate relaunching is a longer period than we have. 14 2335 We are trying to provide you with as 15 much detail as possible, given where we are in the 16 transition process and given, quite frankly, legitimate 17 market forces as to what we want to do to relaunch this 18 station, to maximize the attention we can draw to it 19 and maximizing its revenues. 20 2336 We can talk to you about our local 21 programming plans. That is what our team is here to 22 talk to you about. From an operation level, our team 23 here does not sit down and compartmentalize between 24 benefits that are tangible and benefits that are 25 intangible.
1 2337 If you want to have that discussion, 2 I can go into the numbers. But quite frankly, I am not 3 sure that that is useful. If you want to understand 4 what we are going to do with the station, based on the 5 commitments we made, both tangible and intangible, that 6 is what our team can describe for you. 7 2338 We are very excited about that, and 8 we think we have great news to tell. 9 2339 We are trying to give you as much 10 information as we can at the time period we are at. 11 That is why we filed that reporting letter on Friday, 12 which again went into details on both the benefits and 13 the tangible and intangible. 14 2340 Finally, I would add that in this 15 transition it is kind of like launching a new station 16 but launching a new station with an installed base. I 17 think if you compare the level of detail we have 18 provided to you with new applications, it is much more 19 than that. If you compare it with normal renewal, it 20 is less. We are in that awkward kind of middle. 21 2341 I apologize that we haven't been able 22 to give you everything that obviously you were seeking. 23 2342 If you do want to know what our 24 programming plans are, our team is anxious to tell you. 25 2343 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: We are going to
1 break now. 2 2344 Why it is important -- and certainly 3 I think we made it clear in the transfer decision that 4 we were going to talk about these things at licence 5 renewal. 6 2345 I think it is very important to be 7 able to identify the incrementality of the benefits as 8 opposed to the regular ongoing plans. 9 2346 When did you start operating the 10 station, programming it? 11 2347 MR. MILLER: We took possession 12 October 31st. Up until that point there was CHUM 13 programming on the station, but we didn't make those 14 programming decisions. They were made by the trustee. 15 2348 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you. 16 2349 THE CHAIRPERSON: Did you want a 17 pre-lunch comment? 18 2350 MR. SWITZER: We would like to talk 19 about our obligation as part of that transfer to 20 discuss incrementality. We would like to do that in 21 great detail in terms of all the things that we said 22 and have filed. We will review those, we hope to your 23 satisfaction, whenever you wish. 24 2351 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 25 2352 We will resume at 2:15.
1 --- Upon recessing at 1250 / Suspension à 1250 2 --- Upon resuming on at 1425 / Reprend à 1425 3 2353 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please. À 4 l'ordre, s'il vous plaît. 5 2354 Commissioner Grauer. 6 2355 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you. 7 2356 What I want to do is give you a 8 context for my questions. Perhaps I should have done 9 this beforehand. Again, it was the discussion I had 10 last year with CTV and Global. 11 2357 Fundamentally, I believe all 12 Canadians have a right to expect a return in both 13 cultural and economic terms on the confidence 14 investment shown by Canadian citizens in the Canadian 15 broadcasting industry. 16 2358 I understand that with private sector 17 companies often the cultural responsibilities are 18 difficult to rationalize when economics come into play. 19 You have obligations to your shareholders, and I think 20 we understand that. It is our job to get the most we 21 can and find that correct balance between the return to 22 your shareholders and the return to the public. 23 2359 That is the context in which really 24 we are asking questions, and I am particularly 25 interested in pursuing the questions with respect to
1 CKVU. 2 2360 If I go to page 22 of your 3 application in which you were asked your strategies to 4 develop new Canadian programming and new Canadian 5 talent for CKVU, in particular, what is listed are the 6 benefits only. 7 2361 I am wondering if you could elaborate 8 on any other specific plans, apart from the benefits, 9 that you have to develop new Canadian programming and 10 new Canadian talent. 11 2362 MR. SWITZER: Let me begin, 12 Commissioner. I will do my best to address that 13 question and touch upon some questions that were 14 perhaps left with incomplete answers before the break. 15 2363 We are here to talk about the 16 programs, about details, about plans that will be on 17 the air in the months ahead, and we are of course happy 18 to go into that. 19 2364 Let me add some context so that I can 20 frame where we are going. 21 2365 We filed last week a 10 or 12-page 22 report to give the Commission an update on the status 23 of where we are with our CKVU plans. It dealt, to the 24 best of our ability, with comments on programming, 25 community reflection, and all sorts of other matters.
1 2366 We have brought the team here today 2 to talk about specifics as to the 27.5 hours of 3 programming that was discussed and promised by us in 4 the transfer and referred to in the transfer approval. 5 2367 That transfer decision, if memory 6 serves, made all kinds of references to things that 7 would be discussed at the upcoming renewal. One of 8 them was in fact discussions of our ability to accept 9 as conditions of licence certain promises, particularly 10 in respect to the 27.5 hours of local programming. We 11 are here today to discuss that with you and make those 12 promises. 13 2368 Also in that transfer decision was 14 responsibility by us to the Commission that was 15 specifically discussed where we have an obligation to 16 prove incrementality in terms of the promises made and 17 in fact the commitments made. That transfer decision 18 talked about our responsibility to, in a verifiable 19 accountable way, in an audited way, report on that 20 progress. We have begun discussions with staff. 21 2369 The transfer decision -- I don't have 22 the words exactly in front of me -- refers to a process 23 where we effectively have an obligation to satisfy 24 staff that we are doing that, and we are here today to 25 let you know that we of course stand behind that, as
1 well. 2 2370 The creative team is here today, 3 Brad, Prem and others, to put flesh on the bones, 4 although we are several months away from launching our 5 schedules, to make as specific and real as possible in 6 a living, breathing way, the specifics of some of the 7 very innovative and distinctive things that are planned 8 and that will be on the air in the weeks and months 9 ahead in Vancouver at CKVU. 10 2371 We can go along any of these areas. 11 I am trying to add some context on our side. 12 2372 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: I appreciate 13 that. I have a couple of questions with respect to the 14 benefits particularly, which I would like to leave to 15 the end. 16 2373 If you are saying that you don't have 17 anything to add to what is in the benefits, that's 18 fine, we will move along and I will get to the benefits 19 later. Is that what I understand? 20 2374 MR. SWITZER: That's it exactly. 21 That's why we are here today. That's what we said a 22 few short months ago when we applied for the transfer. 23 We are here today to be specific about those benefits 24 and programs, to the best of our ability. 25 2375 Those are our promises, and we are
1 here and fully expect, in particular to the 27.5 hours, 2 to discuss making those conditions of licence. 3 2376 We are, of course, in an unusual 4 situation in that although we did provide some programs 5 to the station, beginning September 1, 2001, that 6 programming was at the discretion and the decision of 7 the trustee. We took over actual operation October 8 31st-November 1st and of course completely had to start 9 fresh in that it was an unusual situation where all the 10 programs, all the rights, all the inventory, all the 11 library, everything connected with that station left on 12 the same day and moved across the street. 13 2377 So we have, at a very quick pace, 14 worked with local staff and of course asked more 15 questions than anything else, and we are here now, 16 early in May, to talk to you about all the good things. 17 2378 If that is later on in your 18 discussion, of course that's your convenience. 19 2379 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: What I really 20 want to do is have those discussions separate because 21 they are separate. It is really essentially public 22 money that is funding the incremental programming. 23 2380 So what I wanted to do was have two 24 separate discussions: one a licence renewal as it would 25 be with respect to your base level programming and what
1 we might expect to see; and then the benefits 2 programming separately. 3 2381 What is important to me is that this 4 is a public process. It is not just important that I 5 understand it and the Panel understands it, but the 6 public as well. That is why I thought it would be more 7 useful -- because I got confused and I spent a lot of 8 time with all these documents -- if we could have them 9 separately. 10 2382 I don't want to belabour this. 11 2383 MR. SWITZER: I will be very precise. 12 We share your view that the process should be 13 transparent, obviously; it must be. The public has to 14 be served. I can reconfirm that our promises for the 15 new licence are exactly as promised a few short months 16 ago as part of our transfer. 17 2384 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you. 18 2385 MR. MILLER: I think perhaps, 19 Commissioner Grauer, where there may be some confusion 20 is the difference between tangible and intangible 21 benefits. 22 2386 We acquired a station that was a $70 23 million a year station, which we estimated would come 24 down to something like $27 million. It has now come 25 down to something like $22 million.
1 2387 One of the intangible benefits is the 2 fact the Commission got a solid operator to acquire a 3 station, to make solid commitments. So it becomes 4 difficult in our mind to separate the discussion as you 5 want us to do. 6 2388 While incrementality, this process we 7 are having with staff, is absolutely essential -- and 8 we believe firmly we will demonstrate that -- the 9 discussion on programming includes both tangible and 10 intangible. 11 2389 That is why we can't separate it the 12 way I guess you were planning to do. To us, it is all 13 part of the benefit -- not benefits, but benefit -- if 14 you will of the approval of our acquisition of CKVU. 15 2390 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you, 16 Mr. Miller. 17 2391 One of the things that struck me in 18 reading your supplementary brief with respect to Citytv 19 -- and this again goes back to the hours of programming 20 that are on the CKVU schedule that are local Toronto 21 programs and very proudly on your part championing your 22 local Toronto vision and being intensely local. 23 2392 On page 31 of your supplementary 24 brief -- 25 2393 MR. SWITZER: Commissioner Grauer, is
1 that the supplementary brief for CKVU or for Citytv? 2 2394 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: It is the CHUM 3 supplementary brief. 4 2395 On page 29 you say: 5 "The Commission's recent 6 approval of CHUM licences for 7 CIVI Victoria and acquisition of 8 CKVU Vancouver has allowed not 9 only for the extension of CHUM's 10 local programming emphasis and 11 distinctive programming style to 12 these markets, but will 13 ultimately strengthen CHUM's 14 Ontario stations." 15 2396 On page 31, under Citytv, you say: 16 "The addition of CKVU to the 17 CHUM family of stations will do 18 much to return Citytv to 19 financial health and strengthen 20 its priority programming and 21 local commitments over the 22 licence term through more 23 effective amortization costs." 24 2397 And a little bit later on: 25 "...the increasing ability of
1 CKVU to carry a greater share of 2 programming costs." 3 2398 When I look at all of this in the 4 context of not having a program schedule/grid/draft 5 program for the going forward new licence term and the 6 difficulty you have in separating the tangible and the 7 intangible benefits, what is essentially a very low 8 level, going in, of local programming that is not being 9 funded by benefits expenditures -- it is 11 hours -- 10 and then to see that it appears at least -- or I have 11 drawn the conclusion and I would be delighted to have 12 you disabuse me of this -- that these stations are 13 designed to subsidize the operations of your Ontario 14 stations and the subsidization of what are intensely 15 local Toronto programs that appear amortized across the 16 two stations and certainly across your network. 17 2399 Am I unfair? Is that an unfair 18 conclusion, perhaps? 19 2400 MR. SWITZER: With respect, yes, I 20 believe it is. We will satisfy the Commission, after 21 further discussions with staff on the incrementality. 22 2401 But to totally dismiss 27.5 hours as 23 a benefit I don't think does justice to what we bring 24 to the table and to the specifics that we promise. 25 2402 I believe in our transfer benefit, as
1 part of those benefits for non-news programming -- that 2 is outside of the roughly 15.5 hours a week of news; 3 roughly 15.5 and 12.5, plus or minus half an hour -- we 4 had put aside as a benefit $3.6 million over the course 5 of seven years. 6 2403 That is several hundred thousand 7 dollars per year, not the millions of dollars per year 8 that clearly is going to take to fund and is in the 9 model that is going to take to fund all the shows that 10 this group wants to talk to you about. 11 2404 Although we cannot -- and it is not 12 appropriate, I believe -- talk about that level of 13 detail in that we are in discussions with staff and we 14 have an obligation to prove to you in a verifiable way 15 that it is incremental, 27.5 hours of exciting, 16 innovative new local programming is something that we 17 are here to both put flesh on, to celebrate, and to 18 absolutely stand up straight and tall and say this is 19 going to be the most fantastic, innovative, new, truly 20 local reflective television station in the country. 21 2405 I think to try to discount that as 22 not something that is part of what we are here to talk 23 about in this renewal is, with respect, not 24 appropriate. 25 2406 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Partly what I
1 wanted to talk about and get a better understanding of 2 -- perhaps I can put it that way -- is that these are 3 your words in terms of how you describe the addition of 4 these stations. 5 2407 The second thing is -- and it goes to 6 what you discussed with everybody on the Panel so far 7 -- you have argued here vehemently that in fact you 8 have been dealt a very severe and damaging blow with 9 the addition of the licensing of the two stations. 10 2408 You have not too long had the 11 addition of two stations in the Vancouver market, a 12 great privilege, with relatively low obligations on 13 them compared to the privilege of having two stations 14 in the Vancouver market. 15 2409 More important, much of the 16 programming that is here -- and this is not to devalue 17 the programming. Much of it is Toronto local 18 programming -- 19 2410 MR. SWITZER: Commissioner Grauer, 20 may I interrupt you? 21 2411 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Yes. 22 2412 MR. SWITZER: The schedule we did 23 file is the current transition schedule. Of course, it 24 has current programs from Toronto. In a few short 25 weeks, in a few short months, the new CKVU launches
1 with 27.5 hours of local programs, and some of those 2 will be repeated. They will force out of the Vancouver 3 schedule much of that Toronto programming. 4 2413 The best of it should, and will, 5 cross over. The group is here today to talk to you 6 about those plans. 7 2414 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Mr. Switzer, I 8 don't have anything in front of me. 9 2415 MR. SWITZER: I understand. 10 2416 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: We don't have a 11 schedule. We are going forward with the new licence. 12 You want a seven-year term, but I have had nothing from 13 which to assess in sort of concrete terms your plans. 14 2417 What I did was I read the 15 applications and I read all of the material. That is 16 my difficulty. 17 2418 MR. SWITZER: You are right in that 18 the measurable criteria are the 15 hours-and-change of 19 news, the particular multicultural programming 20 commitments and the other non-news programs, which we 21 are here today, to the best of our ability, to flesh 22 out. 23 2419 To have provided you with a schedule 24 that said something was going on in the afternoon and 25 then it goes on in the morning, or something were to go
1 on late at night, it would not be useful to either of 2 us. 3 2420 The actual people who are making the 4 programs are here to talk about that. 5 2421 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Why don't I go 6 through some of the other things. 7 2422 MR. MILLER: With all due respect, I 8 can't leave some of the other comments and observations 9 you made on the record without commenting on them. 10 2423 You have made the comment that you 11 felt the obligations and commitments we made were 12 relatively low. We disagree with that. We think they 13 are entirely appropriate for the circumstances. 14 2424 We have talked already about this 15 turnaround situation. We have talked already about the 16 fact that you have more information before you than if 17 this had been a new licence, which almost it is. It is 18 like it is a new licence. 19 2425 In terms of the wording, I can 20 understand your perspective, reading the wording as you 21 do, as a Vancouver Regional Commissioner. To be clear 22 on that, we are not saying here that VU will amortize 23 the Toronto programming costs. That is not the main 24 point here. 25 2426 The main point here is that all of
1 our programming that is exhibited nationally, of which 2 a tiny percentage of it is the magazine shows that we 3 have from Toronto, will benefit from our ability to 4 amortize program costs across a greater and larger 5 conventional group. 6 2427 The benefit to CHUM and the benefit 7 to the broadcasting system is we can amortize those 8 costs more effectively, increase the quality of those 9 programs, and over time, as we want to get into it, 10 have more shows from Vancouver that get shown across 11 the country. 12 2428 We have plans for shows of that 13 nature. We have plans to make sure that the tremendous 14 track record that we have for B.C. based production 15 finds more windows across the country. Those are the 16 kinds of benefits that are intangible but we think very 17 significant. 18 2429 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you. 19 2430 Perhaps we could go on to something 20 else. 21 2431 I just noticed in your supplementary 22 brief, at page 7 -- I think this is of the CKVU 23 supplementary brief -- you mention that CKVU is 24 available to 3 million households in British Columbia. 25 2432 I wondered how you came up with that
1 figure. 2 2433 MR. MILLER: I believe that is a 3 combination of over-the-air and cable carriage up the 4 B.C. coast. 5 2434 MR. PHILLIPS: That is what it would 6 represent, just the total potential audience that we 7 have through our transmitter at Salt Spring Island and 8 then up island. That is how we serve the area. That 9 is the available audience to us. 10 2435 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Three million 11 households? 12 2436 MR. PHILLIPS: Certainly not 13 households, no; population. 14 2437 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Population, 15 three. That would be most of British Columbia, I 16 think, wouldn't it? 17 2438 MR. PHILLIPS: Our coverage area 18 covers, obviously, the entire Lower Mainland. We may 19 need to seek some clarification on that number. 20 2439 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Yes, would you. 21 2440 MR. PHILLIPS: Our broadcast area if 22 the Lower Mainland. 23 2441 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: And Vancouver 24 Island. 25 2442 MR. PHILLIPS: That's right.
1 2443 MS HUBBLE: Perhaps I could add the 2 population figure for the Vancouver extended market is 3 about 3 million, and the entire province is 4 million 4 people. 5 2444 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: So it is 6 people, not households; thank you. 7 2445 On page 7 of your deficiency letter 8 you identify 16 hours of production sourced from 9 "Sleeping Giant". 10 2446 I wonder if you could tell me what 11 that programming is. 12 2447 MR. MILLER: It might be appropriate 13 for us to give you an update on where we are with 14 "Sleeping Giant". 15 2448 Peter Palframan is in the best 16 position to do that. 17 2449 MR. PALFRAMAN: Commissioner Grauer, 18 the reality of "Sleeping Giant" today is that they are 19 in the process of winding up their business. There are 20 a number of productions that are at various stages, and 21 there is a small core staff that are taking those to 22 completion. 23 2450 Those should all be delivered within 24 the next nine months or so. 25 2451 In the last 12 months they have not
1 taken on any new production work. 2 2452 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you. On 3 page 11 of your application, at 3.3(a), you talk about 4 sales. I am wondering what you mean when you refer to 5 regional, primarily British Columbia, sales as opposed 6 to national, selective and local. 7 2453 I am in a constant struggle to really 8 understand all these different categories of 9 advertisers. 10 2454 MR. SWITZER: We are going to 11 actually reread the exact words so that we don't add 12 any further confusion today, Commissioner. 13 --- Pause 14 2455 MR. PHILLIPS: I would tell you that 15 our sales approach is regional. That is one of the 16 strategies that we are deploying to bring as much 17 retail business as we can. 18 2456 We have now a regional sales manager. 19 We have regional sales representation representing 20 Vancouver and Victoria. 21 2457 MR. SWITZER: Let me continue, 22 Commissioner, because I am not sure which part of that 23 paragraph may not be clear. 24 2458 Certainly for us one of the most 25 important parts, if I have this correct, in 3.3(a) is
1 our statement that CKVU does not have any network 2 sales. 3 2459 Is that what you were referring to? 4 2460 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: No. It was 5 really trying to understand how you are going to sell 6 your advertising and how I can look at it when I get 7 the financial summaries. 8 2461 You have national advertisers who 9 will be buying time. Then there is this 10 local/regional. You don't file separate reports for 11 local/regional, I don't think -- unless you do. 12 2462 What would differentiate them? Are 13 they buying something different? Is it a different 14 advertiser? Are they, for instance, buying Victoria 15 and Vancouver as opposed to just Vancouver or Victoria? 16 2463 Could it be any advertiser? Do you 17 know what I am saying? 18 2464 MR. SWITZER: Of course. 19 2465 Mr. Kirkwood or Mr. Hamilton, or 20 others, may want to answer that. 21 2466 MR. HAMILTON: I will try to address 22 your question, Commissioner. 23 2467 In terms of how we sell to national 24 advertisers -- we represent national sales -- we 25 offered them the Vancouver/Victoria DMA. That is
1 considered one market. National advertisers who want 2 to reach that market would talk to us relative to 3 rating point deliveries, and we would sell the market 4 of Vancouver/Victoria as it is seen as one market. 5 2468 We don't deliver the whole province, 6 by the nature of our signal. So really when we talk to 7 an advertiser for the British Columbia marketplace, we 8 concentrate on our deliveries in Vancouver/Victoria. 9 2469 I think when Brad alludes to regional 10 sales, that is the term they have given it within their 11 region of selling it within the Vancouver marketplace. 12 That is probably the confusion. 13 2470 It is very clear what we offer to 14 advertisers is the Vancouver/Victoria market. We don't 15 get into the interior of B.C. We don't get audiences 16 from that market. We are truly selling 17 Vancouver/Victoria. 18 2471 MR. PHILLIPS: That's true. We are 19 trying to offer as convenient a process as possible for 20 our advertisers. If they want to buy advertising just 21 on CKVU, they can do that. If they want to buy it on 22 CKVU and the NewVI, they can do that; or just the 23 NewVI. All options are available. 24 2472 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Would that be 25 the regional-local split, then?
1 2473 MR. PHILLIPS: The term regional is 2 what we use to describe it to our customer base and to 3 our clients. We have a regional sales department that 4 is representing both stations. 5 2474 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you. 6 2475 Benefits. Would you like me to ask 7 my questions first, or would you like to tell me what 8 you are going to be doing with the benefits programming 9 first? 10 2476 MR. SWITZER: Any way you wish, 11 Commissioner. Please continue. 12 2477 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Why don't I ask 13 the questions. 14 2478 Will any of your ethnic or third 15 language programming be brokered? I guess that is not 16 necessarily related to benefits. 17 2479 Will any of the ethnic programming be 18 brokered? 19 2480 MR. MILLER: We haven't made any 20 final decisions yet. Again, we have different models. 21 2481 In Vancouver, as we have indicated, 22 we are going to have an in-house production unit. We 23 also made commitments to co-production or independent 24 production. But we haven't made any final decision as 25 to whether ultimately some of it might be brokered.
1 2482 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Will you retain 2 rights ownership of any of the programming? 3 2483 What I am really trying to get at 4 here is how will you treat programming that has been 5 partly or fully financed with benefits money with 6 respect to any potential revenues or rights issues? 7 2484 MR. MILLER: I can tell you we 8 haven't drilled down to that level of detail. We are 9 aware of the different models that exist in terms of 10 ethnic programming. 11 2485 With some independently produced 12 ethnic programming for some broadcasters, the copyright 13 goes to the broadcaster. We understand the reason for 14 that. That is not our preferred approach. But again, 15 we haven't made any final decisions. 16 2486 I guess the test that you are 17 alluding to will be part of what we will have to 18 discuss with staff in terms of incrementality. 19 2487 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Right. I think 20 the issue is if it is public money, it should be 21 returning back into the system in one form or another. 22 2488 With respect to the benefits -- and 23 you have alluded to the transfer decision -- we noted 24 your willingness to file annual reports regarding 25 safeguards and benefits. Specifically, the Commission
1 expected that such audited reports would ensure that 2 the financial contributions are clearly incremental to 3 the expenditures that would have been made by CKVU over 4 the next seven years. 5 2489 In its intervention the Directors 6 Guild proposed two methods to establish what CKVU would 7 have spent on Category 7, Drama Programming, in order 8 to ensure that CHUM's benefits relating to 9 B.C.-produced drama and documentary are truly 10 incremental. 11 2490 I wonder if you have any comments on 12 the Directors Guild proposal at this point. 13 2491 MR. MILLER: First of all, until we 14 hear their oral intervention, I don't think we have 15 anything to add from our written reply. 16 2492 Second, this issue was to some extent 17 canvassed in the decision, and I think that is what the 18 process with staff is going to be all about. 19 2493 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you. 20 2494 All right. It's show time. Maybe 21 you can tell me a little bit about what we can expect 22 to see going forward. 23 2495 MR. SWITZER: Brad Phillips is the 24 Vice-President and General Manager of CKVU, and he has 25 been waiting hours to talk to you about the plans for
1 this station. 2 2496 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: I know. I 3 thought I would get all the rest of the business out of 4 the way so now you can tell me what it is your are 5 going to be doing. 6 2497 MR. PHILLIPS: Thank you. It's great 7 to be here. Hopefully we can, in an informal way, add 8 a little colour and levity to the proceedings with some 9 of the dynamic plans and excitement that we have 10 happening in Vancouver. 11 2498 We have four of our management team 12 here today. I can tell you that we represent 140 13 people back in Vancouver that are extremely motivated, 14 extremely excited to get going on our new look, our new 15 vitality. 16 2499 We are in the middle of renovations 17 to our building to transform it into the new shooting 18 style that we want to have. We have major marketing 19 plans set for the summer. We have a major launch event 20 to introduce it to advertisers and VIPs from the 21 community planned for next month. We are contracting 22 and have contracted with new talent for some of the new 23 local programming that we are going to be introducing 24 this summer. 25 2500 In effect, we are transforming CKVU
1 from a network affiliate to a local, independent, 2 exciting television station. 3 2501 We are revamping our 6:00 p.m. and 4 our 11:00 p.m. newscasts. We are going to give it a 5 completely new City-style look. We are making 6 substantial investment in that. 7 2502 We have, as has been alluded to 8 earlier on, exciting new daily programming planned: a 9 local interview, entertainment, community-involved show 10 that will take us live into many parts of the 11 community, all parts of the community over time. 12 2503 Then we have a schedule of 13 multicultural programming that we are developing and 14 excited to launch. 15 2504 If I can take a little bit more time, 16 perhaps to expand on that a little bit I will turn it 17 over to our Manager, Community Affairs, Public Affairs, 18 Prem Gill and to our Director of News and Daily 19 Programming, George Froehlich. 20 2505 First of all, Prem. 21 2506 MS GILL: Thanks, Brad. 22 2507 First of all, as you can probably 23 tell, I have been itching to talk about our benefits 24 for the last couple of days. For me and for CHUM, it 25 has been a long couple of years of talking and
1 theorizing that "if we did this, this could happen". 2 Now that it is actually happening, I can tell you it is 3 the most exciting place to be working in Vancouver 4 right now. 5 2508 I don't think our city has ever seen 6 anything like this. The potential of what is going to 7 happen, and the impact that our programming and our 8 people are going to have on the city -- we are going to 9 rival, I believe, what happened in Toronto over 30 10 years ago. 11 2509 One of the things I am going to be 12 working on, as I talked about this morning, is working 13 with the local people and a lot of our new hires to 14 develop this new style of multicultural programming and 15 aboriginal programming. Our goal -- at least I keep 16 telling them -- is I don't want to call it 17 multicultural programming any more. I really want to 18 look at all of our programming as programming. 19 2510 Because we will produce most of our 20 programming in English, both our mainstream programming 21 and multicultural programming, it is going to be an 22 opportunity to create something new in Vancouver that 23 is real and local. 24 2511 Brad talked about our City style of 25 what we are going to change with our newscasts. When
1 we say "City style", City style means bold and local 2 and innovative. It doesn't mean what you see on City 3 Pulse24, because that's not Vancouver; that's Toronto. 4 2512 Another one of the challenges that 5 keeps coming up in a lot of the discussions we are 6 having is: Where is the talent? When we talk about 7 increasing our diversity numbers at CKVU and finding 8 people to work on programming that traditionally you 9 don't find in broadcasting in Vancouver, we have made a 10 conscious effort to establish scholarship programs with 11 BCIT, to establish a screenwriter's program with the 12 Praxis Screenwriters Centre. 13 2513 All of these programs are directed at 14 visible minority and aboriginal filmmakers and students 15 and individuals with the desire to -- I have this dream 16 that those people who might produce one of our 17 "Vancouver's Other Stories" as their first-time 18 half-hour project or 22 minutes, or whatever it is, 19 will some day end up going through the Praxis workshop 20 with their script and then coming back to me for script 21 development money, and ultimately we are going to 22 develop their feature. 23 2514 This is going to be a three or 24 four-year process so that when we come back to you in 25 seven years I am going to have all these projects that
1 I can come and brag about. It is there. The 2 groundwork is laid. 3 2515 Last week I received 60 submissions 4 from people that included -- we didn't just ask for 5 scripts. We asked for production budgets. We asked 6 for detailed personnel profiles. 7 2516 All of the people producing 8 "Vancouver's Other Stories" have to be from visible 9 minority or aboriginal backgrounds. 10 2517 I was shocked that I got 60 scripts. 11 I was really gratified, as well. I knew that these 12 people were out there, and now they are coming forward. 13 2518 Something that Diane touched on 14 yesterday as well is that I think that talent has 15 always been out there. I just don't think they had a 16 place to go in Vancouver. Now they do. 17 2519 I get calls from people, not just 18 from production people, but just like Dwight Drummond 19 said in the City Pulse video, I get calls from students 20 from UBC and Simon Fraser and SFU, or people working at 21 other stations in the market, people of colour and 22 people of aboriginal backgrounds who see a home for 23 themselves at Citytv Vancouver. 24 2520 Thank you for listening to me. 25 2521 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: We finally gave
1 you an opportunity. 2 2522 MR. PHILLIPS: Commissioner Grauer, 3 let me throw it over to George. 4 2523 MR. GRATTON: Let me pick up on that. 5 I have been with CKVU for 12 years, and I can tell you 6 the buzz that has been created since CHUM has arrived, 7 there has never been anything like it. 8 2524 The quality of the people we are 9 getting there is unbelievable. 10 2525 I will give you an anecdote. 11 2526 I had a young man who applied for a 12 position. He didn't get it. He was the no. 2 choice. 13 He phoned me back and he said, "Can I talk to you for 14 five minutes?" I said, "Absolutely." He offered to 15 come to the station and do anything. And this is an 16 on-air person. 17 2527 In all the years -- and I have been 18 in this business for 30 years -- I have never had an 19 on-air person say to me I will do anything to get in 20 there. That is what he has done. 21 2528 As far as our newscast is concerned, 22 we are going to revamp it. I know that sounds trite, 23 and you have probably heard it before. I have hired a 24 couple of key people to think outside the box, and the 25 kind of programming we are going to put on the air is
1 going to be totally different. 2 2529 Let me give you an example. 3 2530 The city of Vancouver has major 4 problems in terms of infrastructure because it is not 5 getting enough funding from Ottawa. What we are going 6 to do is we are going to champion that to ensure that 7 the road structures and the infrastructures get 8 rebuilt, because that is crucial for the survival of 9 our urban centres. 10 2531 As a newscast, we are going to take a 11 point of view. It is about time newscasts do that. We 12 can still be journalists, be objective, but we are 13 going to champion certain causes in Vancouver. 14 2532 We are not going to be the tried and 15 true traditional newscast. We are going to think 16 outside the box, and we are going to deliver on the 17 promises we made to you today. 18 2533 There is another example in terms of 19 bridging between communities. There are so many things 20 happening in the multicultural communities that the 21 traditional press is not doing. We are going to do it. 22 2534 For example, all sorts of stars come. 23 The South Asian community recently had a big event, 24 with 15,000 people in General Motors Place. They bring 25 the whole family. Nobody covered that. We didn't
1 either. But we will the next time these people come 2 into town. 3 2535 There are all these opportunities. 4 Nobody is grasping them. We will do it. 5 2536 Thank you. 6 2537 MR. PHILLIPS: I can tell you another 7 thing we are excited about, if I can take another 8 couple of seconds. 9 2538 The thing that we are thrilled about 10 is to be able to take this incredible Citytv brand that 11 has meant so much to all the places in the world, 12 Toronto, Barcelona, wherever it has been deployed. We 13 couldn't be more excited to take that and have Citytv 14 mean Vancouver. 15 2539 The way that we have explained it to 16 people who have asked is that the Citytv, the brand, is 17 the picture frame and the picture is the city of 18 Vancouver. That is what we intend to focus on 24 hours 19 a day. 20 2540 Thank you. 21 2541 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Mr. Chair, it 22 isn't that I don't have a lot more that I would like to 23 talk about, but in the interests of our schedule, I 24 think I have covered what I need to. Thank you. 25 2542 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
1 2543 Vice-Chair Wylie. 2 2544 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Mr. Switzer, I 3 kind of share my colleague's frustration. You are 4 applying for a seven-year renewal for CKVU. We did not 5 go through details, as far as I know, as to what your 6 plans exactly would be. The transfer was approved in 7 October of 2001 and these applications were filed I 8 believe on the 16th of November 2001. I have for CKVU 9 a fall schedule with a date on it of 19 November 2001. 10 2545 Is that the most recent we were given 11 for CKVU? 12 2546 MR. SWITZER: Yes, Madam Vice-Chair, 13 and it reads "CKVU Fall 2001". 14 2547 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Yes, with actual 15 typing of that date at the top. 16 2548 I don't quite understand why we can't 17 have an instrument which is a little more similar to 18 what we are used to, block schedules, or whatever, to 19 have a picture of what it is you are proposing for CKVU 20 once this so-called transition is over. 21 2549 In other words, where are these 22 programs going to be? How many of City's programming 23 are likely to be there? Surely you know this. 24 2550 Is it because you don't want to show 25 it to anybody before your party? Or is it because you
1 just haven't done it? 2 2551 Surely you understand that unlike 3 City, we don't have a very good idea of what it is 4 going to be like after the transition. I know you are 5 very excited about it, but it doesn't give me a whole 6 lot, any more than Commissioner Grauer got, about what 7 is it likely to look like. What is the type of 8 non-news programming? Where is it going to be? 9 2552 Can you file with us something? I 10 would have expected you to say well, instead of this it 11 will be that; the news will be at the same time; 12 priority programming, you know where it is -- it is 13 going to be spread over the week as it is now; these 14 three programs from City are likely to be there, but 15 the others won't be; et cetera. 16 2553 I don't have a picture. 17 2554 MR. SWITZER: First of all, Madam 18 Vice-Chair, there is of course no disrespect intended. 19 There is nothing being kept from you. 20 2555 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: I don't get 21 insulted easily. 22 2556 MR. SWITZER: Most of the schedules 23 that were filed were in fact for the current year, for 24 fall 2001. I certainly acknowledge this is not a 25 useful document.
1 2557 Part of the answer -- a small part of 2 the answer, in fact -- would be the competitive nature 3 of some of this material. We in fact, in a small way, 4 are holding back some of the specifics. That doesn't 5 in any way mitigate our responsibilities to you. 6 2558 We have today talked about the plans 7 for an early and late relaunch news. We have talked 8 about an in-house multicultural ethnic program 9 production unit. We have talked about a daily flagship 10 show. We haven't discussed the day part, and we have 11 loosely talked about an early day multi-hour show that 12 Brad touched upon, that involves entertainment, 13 community access, music, entertainment and news. 14 2559 I am not in any way suggesting that 15 we are dodging complete information. We are learning 16 in the market and are having continuing consultations. 17 Our community consultation, a broad community 18 consultation, was literally ten days ago. It has 19 resulted in our revising plans that existed two weeks 20 ago. 21 2560 We are happy to contribute. 22 2561 I guess when we reviewed last week 23 and ended up with effectively minimum 15.5 hours of 24 news, minimum multicultural, minimum non-news 25 programming, it didn't seem to be productive. We
1 thought it would have implied a specificity that would 2 have been misleading. 3 2562 If that was wrong, for that we 4 apologize. 5 2563 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: You know very 6 well how it works. People come for their seven-year 7 renewal. They make a program schedule of some type 8 available. I know it is competitive. But we are in 9 May. Surely you have some idea of what it is going to 10 look like. 11 2564 It would seem to me that Commissioner 12 Grauer especially is entitled to know what it is going 13 to look like. 14 2565 All you are telling us is that you 15 are very excited it is not going to look like this. 16 There have to be more details, it seems to me, for us 17 to have a better idea of what it is that your 18 excitement will translate to. 19 2566 MR. SWITZER: We touched on this 20 earlier, Madam Vice-Chair, and it goes without saying 21 that fundamentally first the station is of course 22 intensely local; and second, we have confirmed that it 23 will be a movie-based format station. It will 24 primarily, as its dramatic expression, be in both 25 Canadian and non-Canadian films.
1 2567 We can verbally sketch out for you or 2 in fact add additional flesh to suggest that it will 3 involve a movie-driven format service of both Canadian 4 and non-Canadian, early and late news, particular other 5 program blocks that we have talked about. We will 6 review and make specific, to the best of our ability, 7 without in any way misleading you that those plans are 8 set in stone. 9 2568 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner 10 Cardozo. 11 2569 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I just want to 12 take this point one step further, because I share the 13 frustration too in coming to a clear decision. 14 2570 What would your reaction be to 15 looking at this particular licence at CKVU as a 16 one-year renewal perhaps? 17 2571 What you are telling us is more than 18 something you can get to us in the next ten days; and 19 even then, it should be public, and all that. 20 2572 Would it be more convenient to you 21 and to us to do a short-term renewal which carries 22 things on pretty well as they are? Then all these 23 things will work out over time, and we will have a 24 clear idea of what it is you are doing and we do a 25 renewal at that point.
1 2573 I don't mean this as a punitive 2 approach, but it is so we know what we are licensing. 3 Right now, I am not quite sure. 4 2574 MR. SWITZER: We will be clear, and 5 if there has been any hesitation or delay on detail I 6 will take responsibility for that. 7 2575 We do not think that a one-year 8 situation with CKVU is appropriate, and we are fully 9 prepared, within ten days, as well as our other 10 information, to make as specific as we possibly can 11 details, content. 12 2576 Our concern was that if we suggested 13 there was going to be a key flagship show in the 14 afternoon at 5 o'clock and it ended up being in the 15 morning, or any such combination, that you would think 16 that we were in any way misleading you. Clearly that 17 choice was wrong. 18 2577 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: It is not 19 about misleading. 20 2578 MR. SWITZER: Our plans are in place, 21 and we seek the comfort and knowledge and consistency 22 for our planning purposes so that we can have comfort 23 that the many people we are hiring and the significant 24 monies that we are spending on these shows, that we 25 will have some consistency on licence.
1 2579 For that reason, I don't think a 2 one-year solution is in any way appropriate. 3 2580 Whether it is convenient for us or 4 not is our problem. We will provide you with the 5 required information. 6 2581 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The thing is 7 it is not just providing us with the information within 8 ten days. As Commissioner Grauer mentioned, it is the 9 public as well. 10 2582 MR. SWITZER: I understand. 11 2583 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So it is a 12 matter of how do we then -- usually everything is 13 public at the date that the public notice is gazetted. 14 2584 MR. SWITZER: There may be an earlier 15 time frame that is more appropriate. 16 2585 MR. MILLER: I would like to add a 17 comment, and I also must apologize if we haven't 18 provided you with the information you wanted. 19 2586 Our measure was some of the new 20 applications which you have licensed, which quite 21 frankly have provided less specificity than we have 22 provided. 23 2587 We thought by that test, given that 24 this is a de facto relaunch situation, it would be 25 appropriate.
1 2588 We have heard you, and we will refile 2 the more detailed information you require. 3 2589 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you. 4 2590 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 5 2591 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 6 much. 7 2592 Mr. Secretary. 8 2593 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 9 2594 We will now hear CHUM on its 10 presentation for the NewNet television licence renewal. 11 2595 You have 20 minutes to make your 12 presentation. 13 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 14 2596 MR. SWITZER: Mr. Chair, Madam 15 Vice-Chair, Members of the Commission, again for the 16 record my name is Jay Switzer. 17 2597 Before we begin our formal 18 presentation, I would like to introduce our NewNet 19 panel as quickly as I possibly can. 20 2598 In the front row to your left of 21 Moses is Mr. Doug Garraway. He is the Vice-President 22 and General Manager of The New VR in Barrie. Just to 23 your left of him is Mr. Nigel Fuller, the 24 Vice-President and General Manager of The NewRO. 25 2599 To your right of Peter Miller here in
1 the first row is Greg Mudry, Vice-President and General 2 Manager of The New PL, The New WI and The New NX. 3 2600 Finally, in the second row, behind 4 Peter Miller, three seats from your far right, is 5 Mr. Howard Slutsken, the Vice-President and General 6 Manager of The New VI in Victoria. 7 2601 They will introduce their respective 8 teams during their individual presentations. 9 2602 On our side table it is mostly as 10 before with Citytv and CKVU, with two changes: that 11 is, Diane Boehme is on your far right, and Sarah 12 Crawford just to the left of her. 13 2603 I think now we can begin, if we can 14 start with the tape, please. 15 --- Video presentation / Présentation vidéo 16 2604 MR. GARRAWAY: Mr. Chair, Members of 17 the Commission, I am Doug Garraway, the Manager of CKVR 18 Television, now widely known as The New VR. 19 2605 With me are Peggy Hebden, Program 20 Director, and Bob McLaughlin, Manager of News and 21 Operations. 22 2606 The New VR shares a history similar 23 to the other New Net stations. We have been in 24 operation since the mid-fifties. We are long-term 25 affiliates of the CBC, now operating as fiercely local,
1 community-driven independent stations committed to 2 excellence in regional news and other local 3 programming. 4 2607 Despite the similarities, there are 5 differences. The New Ro and The New PL serve 6 relatively large cities: Ottawa, with a population of 7 over one million and London with over 400,000 people. 8 2608 The New VR, on the other hand, 9 located in Barrie with a population of barely 100,000, 10 serves an extensive, yet sparsely populated area made 11 up of small cities and towns, rural villages and 12 country crossroads. 13 2609 Viewers recognize this central 14 Ontario region that we call home as "VRLand". 15 2610 In order to sustain robust local 16 service, we must compete successfully for viewing to 17 non-local programming in the densely populated centres 18 to the south. The recent addition of two new stations 19 in the Toronto market is therefore a cause for concern 20 at The New VR and indeed across the whole of our NewNet 21 Group. 22 2611 First, programming costs will 23 escalate. We have already witnessed this fact, losing 24 a key syndicated program from our schedule when one of 25 the new stations offered almost double what we are
1 currently paying for the show. 2 2612 Second, with a significant increase 3 in commercial inventory in the Toronto and Hamilton 4 markets and little apparent increase in demand, we are 5 projecting reduced revenue for CKVR. 6 2613 By the second year of a new licence 7 term, we project that we will lose $2.6 million in 8 revenue and incur $600,000 in increased programming 9 costs. 10 2614 MS HEBDEN: The New VR's success in 11 attracting GTA audiences for our non-local programming 12 was bred of necessity. We, like all NewNet stations, 13 offer viewers a distinctive style of programming, an 14 alternative to other stations in the market. Prime 15 time features unique action dramas, many of them in the 16 science fiction genre, many of them Canadian. 17 2615 Drawing on CHUM Television's ability 18 to create unique, attractive niches for its channels, 19 CKVR, after disaffiliation from the CBC, exploded onto 20 the scene in 1995 as The New VR, earning immediate 21 recognition and acceptance throughout central Ontario. 22 But The New VR's whole economic wellbeing depends on 23 consistent, accessible cable channel placement in 24 Toronto and Hamilton. 25 2616 At the time of its disaffiliation
1 from the CBC, CKVR's status as a regional independent 2 would have guaranteed a 'basic band', 2-13, placement 3 on Toronto area cable systems. The result would have 4 been the displacement of the 'Community Channel', which 5 at that time occupied the only remaining non-impaired 6 channel on the 'basic band'. 7 2617 The Commission accepted CHUM's 8 proposal for a position on the 'secondary tier'. The 9 Commission directed GTA cable operators to distribute 10 The New VR no higher than channel 25, and on the 11 majority of GTA systems VR is now distributed on 12 channel 20. 13 2618 This directive has proven essential 14 for us. Channel position is now, more than ever, 15 critically important to The New VR in order to ensure 16 continued service to the station's local viewers. 17 2619 We seek an assurance from the 18 Commission that the recent licensing of two new 19 competitors in the Toronto/Hamilton market will not 20 disrupt The New VR's cable distribution in these 21 markets. 22 2620 MR. McLAUGHLIN: With a brilliant new 23 identity, a uniquely attractive program schedule, and 24 impressive audience viewing and sales results in 25 Toronto, we have been able to accomplish some exciting
1 things in our home market. I am proud to give you a 2 few examples. 3 2621 The New VR employs 130 full and 4 part-time people, 65 of them directly involved in the 5 production of local news and local reflection. 6 2622 Each week we produce 17 hours of news 7 programming and generate, on average, 300 original 8 central Ontario news items. 9 2623 We have 16 vehicles on the roads of 10 VRLand, including our brand new, state of the art, 11 live-eye truck. 12 2624 In the past two years we have opened 13 three news bureaus: in York Region; in Muskoka/Perry 14 Sound; and, as you saw, just two weeks ago in 15 Collingwood, serving the Georgian Bay area. 16 2625 We have been recently honoured with 17 two significant RTNDA awards for Best Local TV Newscast 18 and Best Live Special, Medium Market. 19 2626 This summary speaks volumes about the 20 reality of our local commitment. The fact that our 21 news audiences are now at their highest level in 47 22 years, despite living in the shadow of the most 23 competitive media market in Canada, clearly indicates 24 tremendous public acceptance and support for our local 25 initiatives. There is much of which we can be proud.
1 There is much at risk. 2 2627 MR. GARRAWAY: At The New VR we are 3 committed to providing exposure for diverse communities 4 across VRLand. Every year we provide over 250 5 community groups with an opportunity to make a personal 6 pitch to VR's evening news audience asking them to 7 support, donate or get involved. 8 2628 There are a number of First Nations 9 located in our local coverage area and we provide 10 significant coverage of activities in the aboriginal 11 community. In fact, we have produced over 150 stories 12 in the past 12 months alone. 13 2629 At The New VR we have the people, the 14 infrastructure and the will to remain the area's 15 dominant news source and to be an essential connecting 16 link for our communities, a mirror on the events 17 affecting viewers' lives, a stage for their talents and 18 an important partner as people in VRLand find ways to 19 help one another. 20 2630 With your assurances, we are 21 confident that we will measure up to the expectations 22 expressed in the many letters of support that have been 23 filed on our behalf. 24 2631 Thank you. 25 2632 MR. MUDRY: My name is Greg Mudry,
1 Vice-President and General Manager of CFPL-TV, CHWI-TV 2 and CKNX-TV. With me are Don Mumford, Manager of 3 Programming and Independent Productions and Kate Young, 4 Director of Community Relations and anchor of our 5 evening newscast. 6 2633 Collectively, our three stations 7 serve over 2 million people in southwestern Ontario, a 8 geographic area populated by individuals who share a 9 common bond while retaining a strong local 10 identification with their home towns. The stations 11 work in tandem to deliver a variety of local 12 programming which reflects these regional and local 13 perspectives. 14 2634 CFPL-TV, London, commenced 15 broadcasting in 1953; CKNX-TV, Wingham, in 1955; and 16 CHWI-TV, Windsor, more recently, in 1993. 17 2635 During the early 1990s new ownership 18 and changing corporate directions moved the stations 19 further and further away from their tradition of 20 providing strong local television service. However, in 21 1997 CHUM Limited acquired the stations, making the 22 commitment to reinstate community-based service. Since 23 then, the three stations have had to contend with the 24 challenge of a reduced revenue base that has been 25 exacerbated by continuing industry-wide flat
1 conventional advertising revenue. 2 2636 In addition, unique challenges exist 3 at the local level, especially in Wingham and Windsor. 4 2637 Wingham, a village of 3,000, has the 5 distinction of being the smallest community in Canada 6 with its own TV station. At the same time, CKNX-TV 7 must serve a huge region that is sparsely populated. 8 Almost half of those living in the region subscribe to 9 DTH services, but unfortunately our station is not 10 carried. 11 2638 Sustaining local television stations 12 in small markets across Canada has become extremely 13 difficult, as was illustrated recently by the closure 14 of CJFB-TV in Swift Current, Saskatchewan. 15 2639 While CHWI-TV has established itself 16 as the number one choice for news and information in 17 Windsor, the competition from just across the river 18 remains formidable. Detroit is a city of 4.5 million 19 people; Windsor, 300,000. 20 2640 Viewing of U.S. stations in Windsor 21 constitutes 54 per cent of total tuning -- double the 22 Ontario average of 27 per cent -- and viewers continue 23 to watch the widely available U.S. signals off air, 24 keeping cable penetration low. While Canadian DTH has 25 made some inroads, our Windsor station is not carried.
1 2641 MR. MUMFORD: Our three stations each 2 currently include 27 hours of original local and 3 regional programming in their schedules every week. Of 4 this, it is through "News Now" and our morning show 5 "New Day" that we most effectively reflect the 6 communities of southwestern Ontario. 7 2642 In London, Windsor and Wingham our 8 newscasts hold the number one ranking and, combined, 9 reach over 500,000 people each week. The tremendous 10 success of "News Now" rests upon the local reflection 11 that is the cornerstone of our service. Our nightly 12 commentary features a diverse range of contributors who 13 are well versed on issues of a timely nature, and this 14 commitment to local reflection has made us invaluable 15 to our viewers. 16 2643 Since its inception in 1999, our 17 morning show "New Day" has broadcast live from over 500 18 different locations and allowed southwestern Ontarians 19 the opportunity to tell thousands of their stories. 20 2644 Many other local programs are 21 included in the schedule, and diversity of local voices 22 is a key element. Diversity is the foundation of our 23 New Program Production Fund, which I administer. By 24 the end of our current licence, we will have 25 contributed $900,000 to the independent production
1 community, initiating 190 hours of locally relevant 2 programming. We are committed to continuing this 3 successful initiative through script and concept 4 development at the local level and by serving as a 5 conduit to other funding available from CHUM 6 Television. 7 2645 MS YOUNG: Our three stations also 8 play a pivotal role in enhancing the lives of our 9 constituents through community service. For example, 10 when the community called for help in attracting the 11 2001 Canada Games, we responded. In total, our 12 support, valued at almost one million dollars, 13 contributed to what has been called the most successful 14 Canada Games ever. 15 2646 One of our 1997 commitments was the 16 establishment of a media literacy program for students 17 and parents. In a unique partnership with the City of 18 London just recently announced, the new public library 19 will house the CHUM Television Media Literacy Centre, a 20 first of its kind anywhere in North America. 21 2647 We recognize that our highly rated 22 newscasts and other station-produced programming have a 23 tremendous influence on community attitudes and, as 24 such, ensuring accurate depiction of local culture and 25 its diversity is essential.
1 2648 This past November, "News Now" 2 reporter Jennifer Palisoc prepared an in-depth profile 3 of the local Islamic community in response to the 4 tragic events of September 11th. "Unveiling Islam" 5 aired as a series within our newscast and again this 6 January as an expanded half-hour primetime documentary, 7 providing a vital perspective at a time when it was 8 most needed. 9 2649 We also provide a special focus on 10 First Nations issues. In addition to carrying "Smoke 11 Signals", which you saw in our video presentation, 12 CFPL-TV sponsored "Gathering of the Good Minds - A 13 Celebration of First Nations Arts & Wisdom". This 14 three-day event in London featured numerous First 15 Nations cultural activities and speakers in an effort 16 to inform native and non-Native audiences alike. 17 2650 MR. MUDRY: The success of our 18 stations rests upon our ability to provide strong local 19 service. We don't have top 20 programs. What we do 20 have is a proven track record in delivering local 21 programming that our viewers tell us is vital to their 22 daily lives. 23 2651 To do this, we have built a 24 three-station system that concentrates technical and 25 logistical resources in London, eliminating unnecessary
1 and costly duplication in Windsor and Wingham. This 2 allows us to place more videographers, producers, 3 cameras and microwave trucks on the street, maximizing 4 our ability to air as much local content as possible. 5 2652 Despite this effective use of 6 resources, accompanied by steady growth in revenue, we 7 have yet to realize a profit. In the licence renewal 8 applications originally filed, we sought a reduction in 9 our minimum commitments to gain the flexibility 10 necessary to preserve the local service we have built 11 and, ultimately, to achieve profitability. 12 2653 With two new Toronto stations about 13 to launch, we face a whole new set of challenges. 14 2654 We will have to find ways to offset 15 the impact of higher programming costs and lower 16 revenues. Therefore, we have modified our applications 17 to gain the ability to implement cost reductions. We 18 hope that such reductions can be minimized for we are 19 loathe to damage the foundation of local service upon 20 which our three stations have been built. 21 2655 MR. FULLER: Hello. My name is Nigel 22 Fuller. I am the Vice-President and General Manager of 23 CHRO-TV. With me are Mike Kellar, Station Manager; 24 Richard Gray, Director of Information Programming; Anna 25 Mary Burke, Programming and Operations Manager; and
1 Marlene Lone, Director of Creative Services. 2 2656 CHRO's Pembroke location employs 32 3 fulltime and eight part-time staff who handle 4 programming, operations, traffic and accounting, as 5 well as local news and sales. The Byward Market 6 location in downtown Ottawa has 83 fulltime and nine 7 part-time employees, most of whom work in news. 8 Advertising, promotion and sales are also carried out 9 from this location. 10 2657 Tony Atherton, entertainment reporter 11 for the Ottawa Citizen, said it best when he 12 characterized The NewRO's evening newscast as 13 "vigorously local". 14 2658 May I add here that we also support 15 the correct hockey team. 16 2659 That phrase captures RO's on-air 17 personality exactly. We cover local news, events, 18 charities, politics and people, and we do it with 19 enthusiasm. We seek out opportunities to interact with 20 our viewers, and we give them a voice to communicate 21 with our neighbours. 22 2660 The latest expression of that mandate 23 occurred on Monday, September 24, 2001 at 6:00 a.m. 24 when "Breakast@TheNewRO" signed on for the first time. 25 Taking advantage offered by the four CHUM radio
1 stations resident with The NewRO in our street-front 2 building, "Breakfast@TheNewRO" offers useful 3 information and entertainment. We broadcast live to 4 Ottawa and the Valley each day, and every show includes 5 performances, events, exhibits, demonstrations and 6 profiles of countless local residents, charitable 7 causes and homegrown talent. 8 2661 In total, CHRO produces almost 29 9 ours of local programming per week -- just over 13 10 hours in the form of news, and nearly 16 hours of other 11 local programs. 12 2662 MR. KELLER: CHRO moved into its new 13 state-of-the-art media centre in the fall of 2000, 14 making us very accessible to the community we serve. 15 Our street-front location is rapidly becoming a meeting 16 place. Not only are tours of the facility in heavy 17 demand, bit we offer the building to community groups 18 and organizations for meetings, receptions, screenings 19 and concerts. We also hold an annual open house at the 20 building where we invite viewers to tour the facility 21 and meet with our personalities. 22 2663 MR. GRAY: Proof that we are making 23 an impact is in the growth in our news audiences both 24 in Ottawa and the Valley. Our 6:00 p.m. newscast has 25 surged past CBC's local news program, becoming the
1 second-most watched news show in Ottawa. And in the 2 valley, for the first time in over 20 years, the 3 NewRO's 6:00 p.m. newscast is the number one source of 4 television news. 5 2664 We have made this meaningful 6 connection with our audience in just a few short years 7 through regular and relevant contact with local 8 newsmakers -- lots of it. Since CHUM Television 9 acquired CHRO in 1997, our news team has grown from 19 10 people to more than 70. With our 13 news trucks plus 11 two live-eyes, we are literally everywhere in our 12 broadcast region. 13 2665 MS BURKE: One of the most visible 14 expressions of our interaction with the community is 15 "Speakers Corner". Viewer contribution from our two 16 "Speakers Corner" booths has grown to the point that we 17 now have a weekly local half-hour prime time show. 18 Another example is our support of local organizations 19 and events in Ottawa and the Valley. We have sponsored 20 over 50 local events during the past 12 months. It is 21 our goal to do more of this than any other local 22 television station. 23 2666 Over the past five years CHRO has 24 supported 16 different projects from local producers, 25 spending a total of just over $450,000. We were
1 involved in the production of a diverse range of 2 projects, from the "Spirit of Hope", a one-hour 3 documentary on the Hope Beach volleyball tournament 4 that raised money for seven charities, to "Fiddle 5 Park", which showcased the annual Fiddling and 6 Stepdancing Championship in Pembroke. 7 2667 We have funded feature length films 8 such as "Juiced", where a disgruntled waitress serves 9 up laughs; and "Two's a Mob", a lighter sided look at 10 the dark side of organized crime. 11 2668 We took time this year to laugh at 12 ourselves in "Ottawa Technically Funny", a six-part 13 series that poked fun at life in Ottawa and the Valley. 14 Response has been so strong that we are expanding this 15 series by another seven programs and working to support 16 the producer's ambition to export the concept across 17 Canada. 18 2669 MS LONE: We are committed to 19 reflecting the lives of the various cultural groups in 20 Ottawa and the Valley. The NewRO works with 21 organizations that reflect and celebrate diversity, 22 assisting them in their promotional efforts for various 23 projects. 24 2670 We are working with the Lombardi 25 family's newly licensed ethnic radio station here in
1 Ottawa/Hull and plan to share a local reporter who will 2 report from the perspective of cultural and ethnic 3 groups within our coverage area. We have also begun to 4 plan a weekend ethnic programming block. 5 2671 We produce and carry the program 6 "Aboriginal Voices" that showcases success stories 7 about aboriginal people. Our program "In Good Faith" 8 showcases hosts from varying faiths tackling issues 9 important to everyday life. The Bahài faith, native 10 lifestyle, leaders from a Hindu temple and the Imam 11 from an Ottawa mosque have all been profiled on the 12 show. 13 2672 MR. FULLER: As part of our renewal 14 application, we have applied to split feed commercials 15 during local programming. This is extremely important 16 to both the station and the Valley retailers that we 17 serve. For the business community, split feed means 18 access to more of the inventory they want -- that is 19 local news and "Breakfast@TheNewRO" -- at rates that 20 are more affordable and better reflect their market. 21 2673 For CHRO, Pembroke local revenues 22 could almost double over the next couple of years, with 23 up to $800,000 in incremental revenue to the station. 24 2674 A positive response to our split feed 25 proposal, as well as our request for flexibility in our
1 local programming commitments, will give us the tools 2 that we need to accomplish our goal of profitability, 3 while serving our constituencies with that vigorously 4 local approach. 5 2675 MR. SLUTSKEN: My name is Howard 6 Slutsken, and I am the Vice-President and General 7 Manager of CIVI-TV, Victoria, known to our Vancouver 8 Island region viewers as The New VI. 9 2676 With me is Laura Acton, The New VI's 10 Director of Community Affairs. While we are not up for 11 renewal, we are pleased to be here to give you a brief 12 update. 13 2677 We have brought together an amazing 14 and diverse team, the majority of which have roots on 15 Vancouver Island. Our beautifully restored, 16 award-winning state-of-the-art facility in downtown 17 Victoria is a remarkable marriage of heritage and 18 high-tech. 19 2678 You saw a number of examples of our 20 local programming in the opening video. 21 2679 What we didn't have time to show you 22 is the anchoring of our morning show from the 23 mid-Island city of Nanaimo. For the first time ever, 24 nanaimo and the mid-Island have a weekday, life, 25 two-hour program, with "New Day" airing from our
1 downtown Nanaimo bureau. 2 2680 In addition, our drama initiative has 3 resulted in over 750 submissions. Our next step is to 4 pair the winning writers with local producers. 5 2681 All we need is DTH carriage to ensure 6 a solid future. 7 2682 MS ACTON: It has been two years and 8 eight months since appearing before you in Vancouver 9 when we applied for an intensely local television 10 station for Vancouver Island. I can tell you now that 11 I am an even more enthusiastic convert than I was back 12 then. 13 2683 I believe the measure of our success 14 since our sign-on is what our viewers are saying about 15 us. Here are a few statements that capture what we 16 have done -- and I quote: 17 "At last we have a true 18 community television station. 19 "I no longer feel deprived of my 20 local news. 21 "They came through with what 22 they promised." 23 2684 We demonstrate our commitment to the 24 community through numerous sponsorships, and we 25 actively encourage the community to use our television
1 station as a vehicle to publicize their events and 2 raise awareness of their causes. 3 2685 As a former city of Victoria 4 councillor, I have seen many development proposals come 5 to the table with promises of extraordinary benefits to 6 the community that never come about. 7 2686 I reiterate the comment that makes me 8 most proud to be part of The New VI team, and that is: 9 "They came through with what they promised." 10 2687 Thank you. 11 2688 MR. SWITZER: Mr. Chair, that 12 concludes our New Net presentation. Of course, we look 13 forward to your discussion. 14 2689 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 15 much. We will break now and resume in 15 minutes, at 16 4:05. 17 --- Upon recessing at 1550 / Suspension à 1550 18 --- Upon resuming at 1605 / Reprend à 1605 19 2690 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please. À 20 l'ordre, s'il vous plaît. 21 2691 Commissioner Langford. 22 2692 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you. 23 2693 First of all, I want to welcome all 24 of you here, from everywhere. Some of you have not 25 come from far, but you have waited a long time. So it
1 almost works out the same. 2 2694 I also want to say to the people from 3 Victoria thank you for coming. I won't be asking you 4 questions, because your licence is not up for renewal. 5 It is not any sign of lack of interest, but we are a 6 bit pushed for time. As much as I would love to have a 7 friendly natter with you since you have come so far, 8 with respect to the many intervenors who are anxiously 9 waiting and patiently waiting -- for which we all thank 10 them -- I will try to move it along as quickly as I 11 can. 12 2695 What I am going to propose, and I may 13 be the first one to break this -- and this is really 14 top of the head thinking. 15 2696 Maybe what I can do is do a first 16 round of specific questions to specific 17 licence-holders; for example, the split feed in Ottawa. 18 We will get that out of the way, get the answers on the 19 record, and then maybe we can have some general 20 questions about local programming, regional 21 programming, the effects of the sort of conversation we 22 had yesterday, where all of the station managers, or 23 whomever, can feel free to get involved. 24 2697 In that way we can have a thorough 25 airing of it, hopefully, but take as little time as
1 possible and get the intervenors in here. I wonder if 2 that is all right as a proposition. 3 2698 MR. MILLER: Of course. 4 2699 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: If it works, 5 it will work for you. I will do my best. 6 2700 Why don't I start where you started 7 with CKVR, Barrie, and Mr. Garroway. We have a couple 8 of specifics there that I wanted to touch on. 9 2701 The first one -- and I apologize if I 10 missed it. The first one is in fact what I might call 11 the first pillar of your four pillars holding up your 12 application, according to the first corporate opening 13 statement that was made -- it feels like the 12th 14 Century by now, but it was only yesterday. 15 2702 That is the question of channel 16 placement. 17 2703 The reason I apologize is because I 18 saw that nowhere in the application. The first notice 19 I had of it was yesterday. It may be in there 20 somewhere, but if it is, I missed it. 21 2704 So I am coming to it a little bit 22 unprepared. I did do a little looking around 23 yesterday. 24 2705 I guess the question is, in light of 25 the quick review of the history we got this afternoon
1 and a little bit of review I was able to do last 2 evening, what is it precisely you think we can do on 3 that issue within the confines of a licence renewal 4 hearing? 5 2706 MR. MILLER: Thank you very much. I 6 will take that question, Commissioner Langford. 7 2707 First of all, you are correct; it 8 wasn't in the original application. It didn't become 9 an issue until the licensing of the two Toronto 10 decisions, and we started to look back at the history 11 of that request that was initially granted in the 12 disaffiliation decision. We realized that it would be 13 so vital to maintain that low channel position that we 14 had to raise it with you as a concern. 15 2708 In terms of what we are asking from 16 you, it is basically a reiteration of what you said in 17 the disaffiliation decision, which is that cable 18 operators should carry us in a channel position under 19 25. In other words, we are asking you to encourage -- 20 and that is all you could do through our licence 21 decision -- cable operators to continue to do that. 22 2709 I should say, Commissioner Langford, 23 because it shows already some very positive response 24 from some of the BDUs affected, we also contacted the 25 two major MSOs affected, Rogers and COGECO.
1 2710 Rogers has sent us a letter, which we 2 would be happy to file, if you feel it is appropriate. 3 Let me read you the last paragraph of the letter, which 4 says: 5 "In light of the historical 6 reasons behind our carriage of 7 CKVR on its current channel 8 position(s), Rogers can confirm 9 that we are not considering 10 moving CKVR from its present 11 location(s) to accommodate these 12 two new services." 13 2711 That was a letter that we received 14 Friday, which is a very positive letter. 15 2712 We have also received an oral 16 indication from COGECO that they -- 17 2713 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am 18 multi-tasking here. I deliver mail; I listen; I 19 prepare questions. 20 2714 MR. MILLER: We got a phone message 21 from COGECO that they similarly are not planning to 22 relocate. 23 2715 Just your reiteration of the 24 importance of that I think is all we are seeking. 25 Already we are getting the kind of response that we
1 need from BDUs. 2 2716 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I think 3 perhaps you probably should file the letter, having 4 quoted from it. Then on the transcript we will of 5 course have note of your phone conversation with 6 COGECO. 7 2717 I can be guided by our counsel, but I 8 would guess, just for a complete record, if COGECO 9 follows that up with a letter or a fax, a memo of some 10 form, you might want to provide that for the record 11 here as well. 12 2718 We don't rule off the bench, but we 13 do believe in fairness and equity and all of those 14 things. I quite understand Mr. Sherratt's urging today 15 that we should look backwards as well as forwards. 16 2719 I hope that gives you some comfort 17 that we have heard you. We do have your opening 18 statement and we have your comments today, and it is 19 certainly something that we will consider. 20 2720 You know the history of this file 21 perhaps better than we do, in that there have been some 22 COLs on Rogers' licence renewals and things that are a 23 bit contradictory. But we hear you, if that is good 24 enough on that issue. 25 2721 Let me move on to another one at
1 CKVR. 2 2722 Mr. Galloway, we are going to get you 3 on the record again, I hope. 4 2723 The simulcast of non-Canadian films. 5 I guess I understand why you might want to do it in the 6 sense that VR country now, if you have access to cable, 7 goes a long way: Oshawa, Toronto, Mississauga. It is 8 a big spread out there. 9 2724 Why is it necessary? Why is that 10 particularly so important to you at this time? 11 2725 MR. SWITZER: Commissioner Langford, 12 perhaps I will deal with that. 13 2726 We thought it appropriate at renewal 14 time to review everything that was on the record, 15 discussions, expectations, conditions, restrictions, 16 and so on. This struck us as an old concern, an 17 immaterial concern, a concern that we believe, 18 ironically, is actually dysfunctional to what we 19 believed was a desired action from the party CanWest 20 that originally asked for it many years ago. 21 2727 For all of those reasons, and because 22 we believe that renewal time is the best time to review 23 -- and I say clean up, with all respect -- what we 24 think are things that should be dealt with at times, 25 that this was the time to talk about it.
1 2728 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You must 2 realize, because you are the people who asked for this, 3 that it may be slightly more than clean up. There are 4 other situations where similar COLs with other 5 broadcasters exist. I don't think our doors will be 6 broken down by applications, but I think this is not 7 the only such condition of licence extant at this point 8 in Canada. 9 2729 MR. SWITZER: Not to overstate the 10 importance, but in our case, given the fit of VR within 11 The NewNet stations across Ontario, and now the 12 connections with The New VI in Victoria, it remains an 13 isolated required difference that now makes it more 14 difficult for everyone to work together. 15 2730 This is the time that we should 16 discuss that. 17 2731 I do not mean to suggest in any way 18 that it is a life or death situation for us. It is 19 not. It is important and we are trying to clean up, as 20 we deal with other matters of flexibility, to provide 21 for ease of operation between stations that share a 22 similar format and similar programming strengths. 23 2732 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Financially, 24 can you give us some idea of what this would mean to 25 you?
1 2733 For example, in the split feed 2 situation that we will get to in a few minutes in CHRO, 3 you give us some financial notions. But on this one, 4 unless I missed it, I don't have a sense of what this 5 may mean in the terms of dollars. 6 2734 MR. SWITZER: No. You are quite 7 correct. The split feed discussion, which I hope you 8 will move to this afternoon, is extremely important and 9 very significant. This is a matter of consistency. It 10 is not a matter of significant or material financial 11 implications. That doesn't mean it is not appropriate 12 to talk about now. We believe it is. 13 2735 To directly answer your question, it 14 is not of material financial significance. It is an 15 operational and programming significance. 16 2736 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I would have 17 thought there were some financial consequences. 18 Perhaps I misunderstand it. 19 2737 Let me see if I can simplify it and, 20 in so doing, demonstrate just how little I understand, 21 perhaps. 22 2738 Is the notion here that if you are 23 showing on City a non-Canadian film "Titanic", you 24 would like to be showing or at least have the ability 25 to show at the same time on the Barrie station, which
1 of course goes into Toronto and Oshawa and everywhere 2 else, "Four Weddings and a Funeral" or some other 3 non-Canadian film? 4 2739 MR. SWITZER: Yes. 5 2740 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Would that 6 not enable you to perhaps up audiences on both and 7 therefore command higher advertising revenues? Or am I 8 wrong? 9 2741 MR. SWITZER: To begin with, you are 10 right in that the desired flexibility would be to be 11 able to take advantage of different kinds of movies and 12 perhaps program a family movie against another genre. 13 That doesn't necessarily result in increased revenues, 14 because it is replacing perhaps another action 15 adventure series. The movies aren't necessarily 16 Blockbusters. There are other genres. 17 2742 Citytv is the primary movie vehicle. 18 The other NewNet stations can continue to play selected 19 movies. Historically, since 1997, they have played 20 approximately one film per week in prime time. This 21 little restriction that we live with strictly for VR 22 reduces the ability of the stations to work together. 23 2743 So on an occasional week if there was 24 a family movie -- and in some cases the group has 25 wanted to play some 7:00 p.m. Sunday night family
1 movies -- that would have meant that the one other 2 non-Canadian film that they might have played, that 3 they couldn't do it. 4 2744 For all the reasons we have talked 5 about, we think it is inappropriate to carry forward. 6 2745 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you for 7 that. Again, you have made your case and we have heard 8 it, and obviously that will be put into the mix. 9 2746 Dealing with specifics, I want to 10 move away from CKVR unless there is a specific I have 11 not spotted -- and we will get back to, of course, the 12 whole larger question of programming. 13 2747 Perhaps we will move on to CHRO, 14 Mr. Fuller, and perhaps we will have better luck. I 15 will ask questions that perhaps can bring you into the 16 play here, dealing again with this split feed 17 application. 18 2748 Before we get to it, just as a bit of 19 an intro to it, would you tell me a little bit about 20 the balancing of program schedules to attempt to 21 reflect the two audiences that you so clearly state in 22 your application that you are working with. 23 2749 You can use something as simple as a 24 line-up of news. Are they two separate news shows or 25 they shows that are similar for the first six of twelve
1 minutes and then different afterwards? 2 2750 Can you give me some idea of what it 3 means to be putting out these two shows -- and you can 4 use some of your non-news programming as well -- so 5 that when we get to the question of split feed, I will 6 have a better sense of what that split feed is going to 7 be built around. 8 2751 Is that a fair question? 9 2752 MR. FULLER: Sure. What we do is we 10 completely integrate the Pembroke information with the 11 Ottawa information in both the breakfast show and the 12 news shows. We maintain a news operation in Pembroke, 13 and they feed stories into our 6 o'clock, our 11 14 o'clock and our weekend newscasts. 15 2753 We make sure that at least one 16 Pembroke story runs in the first three to four stories 17 on the 6:00 to 7:00 cast. 18 2754 Richard, what is our average? 19 2755 MR. GRAY: Our average on a daily 20 newscast basis would be that we would run probably five 21 to six items in our breakfast show, in the news 22 segments of the show, as well as doing regular segments 23 into the breakfast show from Pembroke. 24 2756 On our 6 o'clock news program on a 25 daily basis we would run anywhere from three to five
1 stories, including one that is done either live from 2 our Pembroke newsroom or live on location in Pembroke. 3 2757 For our 11 o'clock news each day the 4 number would be around three stories an evening, at 11 5 o'clock. 6 2758 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Just to be 7 pellucidly clear, it is the same show. Ottawa gets 8 that show with the Pembroke bits, and Pembroke gets the 9 show with the Pembroke bits. They get exactly the same 10 show. 11 2759 MR. FULLER: Absolutely. 12 2760 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I just want 13 to be clear on that. 14 2761 Go on. You were going to give more 15 information. 16 2762 MR. FULLER: Only that one of the 17 things we found when we started to do this was that we 18 had a deficit in Pembroke in that we were not able to 19 go live from the Pembroke area and the Valley. We had 20 a truck that had to be everywhere, and that wasn't 21 working out well for us. 22 2763 We ended up being able to put 23 together another live-eye truck in order to have it 24 maintained in Pembroke. We have one there and one now 25 in Ottawa so we can feed live stories in both breakfast
1 and news. 2 2764 MR. GRAY: Perhaps I can add to that 3 slightly. 4 2765 Part of the integration that 5 Mr. Fuller speaks about also comes through in the way 6 that we go about planning all of our special live 7 productions. 8 2766 When we are doing an election night 9 special, a municipal election special like we did in 10 November of 2000, we set up in Pembroke to cover the 11 results from Pembroke and integrated that into our 12 overall municipal election coverage in a very 13 significant way. 14 2767 We did the same thing when we covered 15 the federal election in 2000 and the provincial 16 election in 1999. 17 2768 We did a three-hour broadcast special 18 on New Year's Eve 1999 to bring in the new millennium. 19 One of the live locations that we featured on that 20 program, again very significantly, was a Black Tie 21 event from downtown Pembroke. 22 2769 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But there was 23 only one show in all of these cases. 24 2770 MR. GRAY: There was only one show in 25 all of these cases, and a significant portion of the
1 show was from Pembroke and from other locales around 2 the region. 3 2771 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I want to 4 stress that there is no critical undercurrent in what I 5 am asking. I just want to be absolutely sure that 6 there isn't a second show somewhere. 7 2772 Are there any instances in your 8 schedules where in fact Pembroke gets a different show 9 for half an hour, an hour, whatever time slot Ottawa is 10 getting? 11 2773 MR. FULLER: The only time that 12 happens is when the Commission has allowed us to split 13 feed for the purposes of doing a telethon that we do in 14 Pembroke and the Valley that is distinct to the Valley. 15 That is the only occasion I can remember where we have 16 fed different shows. 17 2774 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So sort of a 18 special licence situation. 19 2775 Before we get to the financials and 20 one of the clear reasons for doing this, if you were to 21 be granted the split feed ability that you seek, would 22 that change in any way, or could it change in any way 23 the make-up of local shows as you have described them 24 to me today? 25 2776 MR. SWITZER: Let me begin, if I may,
1 to be very clear so that there is no confusion. 2 2777 No, Commissioner Langford, it will 3 not change our investment in the market in terms of 4 people and resources, the close to 40 people we have in 5 total in the Valley, the technology, the news base. We 6 are talking about specifically the right to split feed 7 advertising, advertising only, and even more 8 restrictive than that, to split feed advertising only 9 in our local programs and the local programs the way 10 they are now. 11 2778 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So it is 12 money -- and not a bad thing as long as it is used 13 correctly, I suppose, or wisely, at least legally. 14 2779 MR. SWITZER: Finally, Commissioner 15 Langford, the pressure that gets us here to ask for it 16 is the slow forcing out, as we discussed today, of many 17 of the local retailers in Pembroke who, as the station 18 grows, are finding themselves less able to continue to 19 take advantage of the station. 20 2780 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let's talk a 21 little bit about it. 22 2781 We understand that you will have 23 separate feeds because you want separate ads. We 24 understand that it will only be the local programming, 25 but the programming will remain more or less as it is.
1 For the sake of this argument, the programming won't 2 change. 3 2782 Where are there going to be financial 4 implications? 5 2783 The obvious one is on your bottom 6 line, but where else? 7 2784 MR. FULLER: There are going to be 8 financial implications for the retailers that we serve. 9 In Pembroke, a retailer deserves to be able to buy 10 advertising time on our station in a way that relates 11 to the size of the market he serves. 12 2785 Right now, if we did not have split 13 feed and if we did not reserve inventory for Pembroke 14 advertisers, they would have to pay a rate that would 15 reflect all of our market area, Ottawa and Pembroke. 16 That makes it unaffordable for our Pembroke 17 advertisers. 18 2786 So there is a good and big financial 19 incentive for our retailers, because they are going to 20 be able to advertise on their local service with their 21 own advertising. 22 2787 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Are they 23 going to see lower prices? Or are you in fact by, as 24 you say, reserving time for them giving them a deal now 25 and then just absorbing it in your own bottom line?
1 2788 MR. FULLER: That is what we are 2 doing right now, and it is untenable in the long term. 3 They are going to see, when we split feed, that they 4 are going to be able to buy air time in our local 5 programming, their local programming, and they are 6 going to be able to buy it cheaper, sure. 7 2789 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Cheaper than 8 now or at the same price you are giving it to them now, 9 at your own cost, or at a cost to you? 10 2790 MR. FULLER: I see what you mean. 11 Probably a little cheaper than we are even doing now. 12 2791 Right now we are subsidizing to about 13 55-60 per cent of our normal rate card for a Pembroke 14 advertiser. That might drop to about 45-50 per cent. 15 2792 I think that was outlined, by the 16 way, in the confidential financial information that we 17 filed. 18 2793 MR. SWITZER: I think what Mr. Fuller 19 is referring to is that we have assumed those 20 additional revenues in our model, as filed in our 21 revised financials. 22 2794 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am trying 23 to have a general discussion that is not confidential. 24 If I step over the line, I am sure you have enough fire 25 power there to do something about it.
1 2795 Let me get this right. Essentially, 2 if you are selling a $100 advertisement, $100 is what 3 it would cost for Donnelly Ford in Ottawa. Once you go 4 up the Valley to -- I don't remember who is selling 5 Pontiacs and Fords any more up in Pembroke -- to 6 Pembroke Ford, shall we call them, at this time you are 7 selling it to them for around $55 or $60 and absorbing 8 the loss. 9 2796 Is that where we are? 10 2797 MR. FULLER: That is correct, in our 11 local programming. 12 2798 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: When and if 13 we were to grant this segment of the application, you 14 would still be taking a bit of a loss? Is that what I 15 understood you to say? 16 2799 Or would you then be just charging 17 $55 for that because that is what it would be worth in 18 the more limited market? 19 2800 MR. FULLER: No. We would be -- we 20 wouldn't certainly be taking a loss. We would be 21 charging the $50 or $55 in the Valley, but we would 22 also free up that avail to sell in Ottawa to an Ottawa 23 area retailer who didn't need the Pembroke coverage, 24 and we would be able to sell that at a good rate, 25 obviously.
1 2801 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So you are 2 getting $155. 3 2802 I should not have said loss. The 4 question I meant was: Would the days of subsidization 5 be over? 6 2803 MR. FULLER: Yes. 7 2804 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: There would 8 be no further subsidization on top of the cost. 9 2805 At this point you are going to set up 10 two rate cards. You are going to have the $55 ad in 11 Pembroke, and you are going to have the $100 ad in 12 Ottawa at the same time, but different coverage and 13 therefore, in your mind, fair. It will up your 14 revenues and give the Pembroke people a break, but I 15 guess it would penalize the Ottawa advertisers a little 16 bit because they would lose a little bit of their 17 reach. 18 2806 Would you have to lower the price in 19 Ottawa at all? 20 2807 MR. FULLER: Not really, because 21 there are a number of advertisers in Ottawa, certainly 22 the smaller ones, who just don't need the Valley reach. 23 We would try to match the spots so that we get the 24 smaller Ottawa retailers and the smaller -- 25 2808 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: If some big
1 chain like Home Depot wanted to advertise, you would 2 urge them to get away from the local programming and to 3 get on to something else. 4 2809 MR. FULLER: Much like the national 5 advertising, sure. 6 2810 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It's not my 7 business, except peripherally, so it is good to have 8 that kind of explanation. 9 2811 Who else might it hurt? I am 10 thinking now of radio stations, newspapers, The 11 Pennysaver, who knows. Are Pembroke advertisers 12 bringing business to other communication areas other 13 than television because they can't afford it, but they 14 will come romping over to you once you have this split 15 feed and thereby leave some local Pembroke supplier out 16 in the cold? 17 2812 MR. SWITZER: Let me begin before 18 Nigel perhaps chirps in. 19 2813 I think it is important to point out, 20 since you ask who might this hurt, that the only 21 television competitor we face that sells time in the 22 area, CJOH and the CTV people, have not opposed this 23 application. 24 2814 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: There are 25 other ways to advertise. I just want to make sure I
1 understand the full parameters of this. Sometimes 2 there are more stakeholders than seem obvious. 3 2815 If you cannot afford to advertise on 4 television, if you are in Pembroke you might buy a full 5 page in the Pembroke newspaper; if you can't afford it, 6 you might buy a quarter page; or you might not buy 7 anything. 8 2816 Have you looked down that side as to 9 where these people might go? 10 2817 MR. FULLER: I am going to let Mike 11 Keller behind me here answer the question. He is the 12 Pembroke Station Manager. 13 2818 MR. KELLER: Commissioner Langford, 14 in the Pembroke market the competitors that we face at 15 what we like to call our gut level retail are a daily 16 newspaper specific to Pembroke itself and the local 17 radio station. 18 2819 The competitive nature of the market 19 as such, due to the way we have been subsidizing the 20 Pembroke retailers through rate structure, really won't 21 change on the street. We seem to have pegged our rates 22 specifically to our audiences. 23 2820 The latest survey that came out, as 24 late as last night, supports the rate card that we have 25 in place at the subsidized level. So it means little
1 or no change to what is happening in the market right 2 now. 3 2821 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you for 4 that. 5 2822 Moving on now to the specifics, I 6 think I have just a couple for the CFPL 7 London/Wheatley/Windsor/Wingham group. 8 2823 The first one would be with regard to 9 the media literacy initiative that you have going in 10 that area. In taking some advice from Mr. Sherratt and 11 looking back at that, it has been quite a success. 12 2824 I wonder what your plans for the 13 future are. Again, perhaps I missed it. One reads as 14 carefully as one can, but I didn't see anything in the 15 application about a statement about going forward on 16 that. 17 2825 There was a lot of enthusiasm about 18 what you have done so far. If I have missed it, I 19 apologize. 20 2826 What are the future plans for the 21 media literacy initiative? 22 2827 MR. MUDRY: Perhaps it would be 23 useful to have a couple of quick comments about where 24 we are at at this point in time that Kate Young, our 25 Director of Community Relations, can talk about.
1 2828 Then I think we may go over to Sarah 2 Crawford, who has been spearheading this for CHUM 3 Television on a corporate basis. 4 2829 MS YOUNG: At a local level we are 5 very excited, because this is something that we have 6 partnered with the London Public Library. Darryl 7 Skidmore, the CEO from the library, is here today and 8 he will be speaking on this as an intervenor. 9 2830 This is something that we have 10 discussed over the past almost 12 months and we have 11 been able to put together, of course, because of CHUM 12 Television and their commitment to media literacy, the 13 CHUM Television Media Literacy Centre. The library is 14 still in the process of being built, and it won't 15 actually open until August 25th. 16 2831 We have had meetings with the library 17 staff to develop this incredible centre right on the 18 ground floor of the library. We are very excited about 19 it. It is going to be very interactive, with computers 20 and television sets. 21 2832 We are hoping -- and Sarah mentioned 22 this earlier today -- that because of this centre we 23 will be able to invite teachers and parents and 24 students in so that we can, over the course of the next 25 many years, establish a point where it will be a
1 central place for all teachers to come to find out more 2 about what they should be teaching their students in 3 school. 4 2833 I think Sarah mentioned that this 5 morning, that they really don't have the curriculum 6 that they need to be able to teach their students. We 7 get calls all the time from teachers wanting more 8 information. We are hoping that, in the long run, this 9 media literacy centre will be able to fill in some of 10 the gaps that there are right now. 11 2834 MS CRAWFORD: I will just jump in to 12 say that it is in the application. We are just looking 13 for the page number right now, but it is mentioned. 14 2835 You are right. The going forward 15 plans and detail are not mentioned. 16 2836 To pick up on what Kate has said, it 17 is going to be a great community centre for parents, 18 teachers, educators, any kind of interested party who 19 wants to avail themselves of this really first in North 20 America kind of model partnership with the public 21 library. 22 2837 As Kate mentioned, it is a 23 partnership with the city of London insofar as they are 24 developing their new public library. It is going to be 25 exciting for the community, because it will be not only
1 a physical venue but a really fantastic centralized 2 resource of information right there at the library. 3 2838 In association with that, they are 4 developing an original Web site, so it is going to 5 cross provincial borders and local borders in that 6 sense and be a useful resource nationally, which ties 7 in wonderfully with CHUM's partnership and sponsorship 8 of the media awareness network. 9 2839 You will hear also from an intervenor 10 today who is a local Stratford area school teacher who 11 can expand more on what the value of the library will 12 be to the community. 13 2840 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It is very 14 much in your going forward plans. 15 2841 MS CRAWFORD: Absolutely. There are 16 really an unlimited number of ways that we can build 17 upon this, not only from a pure media literacy point of 18 view but also from the work that we are doing in our 19 local programming and cultural diversity, in our 20 community outreach initiatives. 21 2842 The library itself is going to have 22 very sophisticated meeting space, not only for 23 teleconferencing and meeting rooms but also a full 24 theatrical venue for a larger group. 25 2843 My colleague is letting me know that
1 it is on page 11 of the application. 2 2844 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: On page 11? 3 2845 MS CRAWFORD: Of the supplementary 4 brief for CFPL and accompanying stations. 5 2846 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you 6 very much. I have it right behind me, and obviously I 7 missed that. I am delighted to have the reference; 8 thank you. 9 2847 I think that covers the specifics as 10 I understand them, unless I have missed one. 11 2848 What I would like to do now is try to 12 move to some general questions, obviously about local 13 and regional programming, and to get some sort of 14 reaction from the three of you, the three 15 representatives. 16 2849 As I say, I am sorry to freeze 17 Victoria out, but your time will come. And when it 18 does come, you may look back on the day you were frozen 19 out with some relish. 20 2850 All of you were here yesterday, I 21 assume, cooling your heels and waiting for your turn, 22 and you heard some of the discussion that I had, and 23 Commissioner Cardozo. All of us had a bit of a crack 24 at it; Vice-Chair Wylie. 25 2851 All of us are somewhat perplexed. We
1 have taken the point about the licensing and your sense 2 of the worst case scenario. 3 2852 Perhaps I will stop talking in the 4 collective and speak only for myself. 5 2853 I remain somewhat perplexed about the 6 success that you have built on and the enthusiasm that 7 you have for local and regional programming. The 8 message comes through loud and clear on your videos. 9 It comes through loud and clear in your opening 10 statements. It comes through loud and clear in your 11 applications, in the supplementary briefs. Everything 12 you list that you are proud of has the word "local" in 13 it somewhere. 14 2854 I think I counted them in the RO's 15 application, and there were 16 or 17 of them. I am 16 going by memory. And every one of them had the word 17 "local" in it at least once. 18 2855 Now we are hearing, as I understand 19 it, a kind of general commitment to keep going and to 20 do as much as possible but a desire -- and I am taking 21 you at your characterization of it -- to be forthright 22 and honest and to say we may have to cut back, 23 depending on what happens economically. 24 2856 I suppose really I have to deal with 25 worst case scenarios here. There is no point in my
1 taking a lot of time to say how wonderful you will be 2 if there is no financial fallout and the best case 3 scenario goes and it's business as usual. 4 2857 We already know how wonderful you 5 will be. We have seven years of examples of it -- 6 well, five in some, seven in others. We have videos. 7 We have a record. We have your own enthusiasm. We 8 have platoon after platoon of teams to tell us all 9 about it. 10 2858 So forgive me, if you will, that I go 11 right to the dark side here and talk to some of you 12 from the different stations, if I can, about the sort 13 of scenario that Peter Miller and Jay Switzer and Moses 14 Znaimer, and some of the others who were on the front 15 bench yesterday, talked about. 16 2859 I guess we might as well start with 17 the worst of the worst. This is for any of the three 18 of you, or all three of you in turn, however you want 19 to play it. 20 2860 What happens if you lose a crew in 21 what I will call a studio, although I have been 22 informed you don't call them that? What happens if you 23 lose what historically has been called one of your two 24 studio crews? What is the fallout? 25 2861 That was a long intro for a short
1 question, but I did want to put it in context. 2 2862 MR. FULLER: We have two crews. The 3 morning crew comes in, and they do our new breakfast 4 show. They come in at 4:30, 5 o'clock in the morning. 5 They produce our morning show, and they also produce 6 the seven-minute news thing that we do at noon. 7 2863 The afternoon crew comes in, and they 8 are responsible for the evening news, the 6 o'clock and 9 the 11 o'clock. 10 2864 I guess that is the issue. In order 11 to cut back, when it comes to local, cutting back a 12 couple of hours doesn't cut back much expense. The way 13 to cut back expense, obviously, is to cut back a crew. 14 2865 So we would either lose the morning 15 or the evening. 16 2866 Obviously, the choice would probably 17 be, under a worst case scenario -- and I have to tell 18 you that this isn't what I am planning for. I have 19 some growth going on in this marketplace. I have 20 rating point levels climbing in this marketplace. I 21 have some nice increases in terms of revenue going this 22 year, and I am looking forward to turning this thing 23 around and making good money. 24 2867 Having said that, if indeed worst 25 case scenario happens, the first thing that would
1 happen is the morning show would probably become a 2 regional show. 3 2868 In that case, I would be bidding, I 4 would hope, against the other stations to produce the 5 morning show, and then inserts would be done at the 6 other stations. Or it would be done, for instance, in 7 London or in Barrie and I would produce inserts for my 8 market. 9 2869 In that happenstance, obviously my 10 local production would be cut back and I would generate 11 a full shift saving -- once again worst case scenario. 12 2870 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Before we get 13 to what those savings would be, in this "Sophie's 14 Choice" that you may be forced to make, which way would 15 you go? Would you prefer to go morning or would you 16 prefer to go afternoon? 17 2871 Or is it something that will be 18 foisted upon you? Will that decision be made somewhere 19 else? 20 2872 MR. FULLER: I think there is going 21 to be a lot of input. We haven't exactly talked about 22 this a whole lot. We haven't had much time to prepare. 23 2873 We would be sitting down, all of us. 24 We have a general manager's meeting at the end of June, 25 and I am sure it will come up then.
1 2874 We will be sitting down and talking 2 about this very thing. 3 2875 I can only speak from the point of 4 view of RO. I think it would be extremely important to 5 keep our 6 o'clock and our 11 o'clock news intact and 6 to do as much as we can in terms of inserts into our 7 mornings. 8 2876 That would be my first choice, I 9 guess. 10 2877 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What would 11 you be using for those inserts? Would these be 12 timeless pieces, as we used to call them, baggers that 13 would be done by a news crew or an outside field crew 14 the day before, three days before? How do you keep it 15 current? 16 2878 MR. FULLER: Once again, I can only 17 speak to my station. In my station, I am lucky. I 18 have four radio stations resident in the space. I can 19 use my own news backup facilities to produce the video 20 and the scripts, and we can access also news, weather 21 and sports from the radio stations. 22 2879 So I think probably we would be able 23 to put a very current package but include breakfast 24 elements from other markets. 25 2880 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Before we get
1 to the money, do any of the other three want to jump in 2 on that general subject? 3 2881 MR. MUDRY: Yes, just to reiterate 4 something that Jay Switzer mentioned yesterday. 5 2882 Doing a regional morning show is not 6 the only solution to the doomsday scenario. There is 7 other product available that is produced by some other 8 CHUM stations that could also be run in the mornings, 9 and certainly with our new stations on the west coast 10 they could be a source of product that might play 11 adequately in our market. 12 2883 So there are options. As Nigel has 13 indicated, we haven't arrived at a final plan, so to 14 speak, for the doomsday scenario. 15 2884 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am not 16 entirely sure how early your friends from Victoria 17 would have to get up in the morning to do the morning 18 show for Barrie, but that is something I am sure you 19 will work out. 20 2885 We still are going to lose a crew. I 21 have two employee numbers here. I have 83 at CHRO, 130 22 at Barrie. 23 2886 What do we have, all told, in 24 London/Wheatley/Wingham? What is your full contingent 25 of employees, just the number?
1 2887 MR. MUDRY: The fulltime contingent 2 at -- are you asking about the total complement we 3 have? 4 2888 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Yes. 5 2889 MR. MUDRY: At all three stations 6 about 180. 7 2890 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: One hundred 8 and eighty? 9 2891 MR. MUDRY: Yes. 10 2892 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: If you lose a 11 crew -- since your microphone is open, I will throw 12 this one to you first. 13 2893 If you lose one of your crews, let's 14 say for sake of argument your morning crew, because 15 something is going to be put into the morning show slot 16 -- Ontario AM, perhaps, as we discussed yesterday, or 17 your Victorian cousins are going to get up early and 18 help you through this -- you are obviously going to 19 lose more than the crew. 20 2894 How many people are in the crew, to 21 begin with? 22 2895 MR. MUDRY: I am going to ask Don 23 Mumford, who is the head of programming, to take a cut 24 at that. 25 2896 MR. MUMFORD: As everybody said, we
1 have really not given this a huge amount of thought as 2 to exactly what any potential savings would be. 3 2897 MR. MILLER: As Mr. Diefenbaker used 4 to say: Now is the time. 5 2898 MR. MUMFORD: It is a little unique 6 what we do in southwestern Ontario, because we actually 7 have microwave trucks on the street in Windsor and in 8 London. The actual central base for our morning show 9 is at the Convent Garden Farmers' Market in downtown 10 London. 11 2899 So actually the entire show that we 12 produce, which is two hours a day, Monday to Friday, is 13 actually produced remote from the station. We are 14 probably talking 15 individuals, thereabouts. Please 15 don't quote me on that. 16 2900 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I don't have 17 to. We are keeping a transcript here. 18 2901 MR. MUMFORD: Well, don't hold me to 19 it anyway. 20 2902 MR. MUDRY: If I might, it is 15 plus 21 or minus five. It is in that order of magnitude. We 22 did not come here, as I said, with a specific plan that 23 earmarked the specific number of people. But it is 24 that order of magnitude. 25 2903 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: In the
1 horrible vernacular that we have all learned since the 2 Gulf War and the Bosnia War and the present Afghanistan 3 conflict, what will be the collateral damage? Do you 4 lose a receptionist? Do you lose some script 5 assistants? Do you lose a copy clerk? Do you lose an 6 anchor? 7 2904 What is the collateral damage beyond 8 the actual technical crew people that you are losing? 9 2905 MR. MUMFORD: When we spoke of the 10 number of people that would be affected, that would 11 certainly include the people who are on-air. It would 12 certainly include the people who are in master control 13 and those areas; audio people. 14 2906 It would affect people who drive our 15 microwave vehicles, camera people, shooters, and so on. 16 So all of the various components that go to make up the 17 production of the programs and to get those programs 18 on-air would be affected. 19 2907 Beyond that, there would not be 20 substantial, as you put it, collateral damage. 21 2908 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I am not 22 trying to be maudlin here, but your day would start a 23 bit later in a sense, wouldn't it. Can you give that a 24 little more thought? 25 2909 Are you absolutely sure on that, that
1 we wouldn't be seeing more fallout? 2 2910 Don't forget fallout, horribly, is 3 also savings. One person's inability to bring home a 4 pay packet is another person's ability to minimize 5 their losses. 6 2911 I assume that if a prudent 7 entrepreneurial eye was to start to get somewhat 8 focused on this, they might be able to go beyond your 9 first reaction. 10 2912 I am not trying to be critical of it, 11 but it is a first reaction. Can you think further than 12 that? Or should I perhaps go on to one of your 13 colleagues and give you some time? Do you want a few 14 minutes on that? 15 2913 MR. MUDRY: It is a difficult one to 16 answer specifically at this point in time. As we have 17 said, we have not put pen to paper and calculated all 18 of these things in detail. 19 2914 I will say that we, as our colleagues 20 at The NewRO and at The NewVR, do tend to run some 21 pretty pared back operations. There tends to be in 22 many cases one-of, one-of. There is one program 23 manager; there is one this and there is one that. 24 2915 There is the possibility that we 25 might be able to identify some collateral savings in
1 the form of one or two more people. That would make 2 up, in my opinion -- and this is, again, speculative at 3 this point -- part of the 15 or so that Don Mumford had 4 alluded to earlier. 5 2916 MR. MUMFORD: If I may, I think it is 6 important to remember that all three of our stations 7 broadcast 24 hours a day, seven days a week. When we 8 produce any of our shows, whether it be our 6 o'clock 9 newscast or our morning show, we typically in our 10 station are constantly multi-tasking. 11 2917 We may have somebody who is in 12 videotape playing back tapes to air that are actually 13 going on air or ingesting commercials into a non-linear 14 system. We will actually get them to participate in 15 some ancillary way on the morning show. 16 2918 What we typically find whenever we 17 try to make -- especially in southwestern Ontario, 18 because essentially right now we are running a 19 three-station system that is fully integrated. When we 20 try to make any changes such as this, the domino effect 21 is quite significant. 22 2919 Even what might seem to be the 23 simplest change has to be mapped out and looked at very 24 closely, because it has far reaching ramifications. 25 2920 MR. SWITZER: Commissioner Langford,
1 I don't want to in any way taint your direct 2 discussions with the managers -- 3 2921 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Oh, good. 4 2922 MR. SWITZER: -- and I would 5 absolutely avoid any guidance. But as an example, if 6 we are talking about southwestern Ontario in a worst 7 case situation -- and we have asked the managers to 8 prepare and begin thinking about it. We have called, 9 frankly, a retreat to discuss just that a few weeks 10 from now. 11 2923 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Interesting 12 choice of names. 13 2924 MR. SWITZER: In the third year, the 14 damage, the bottom line that we must work back to in 15 our worst case situation between the three stations in 16 the southwest amounts to seven or $800,000, which would 17 be, in terms of order of magnitude, perhaps roughly 18 equal to the numbers that these gentlemen are talking 19 about today, between 15 and 20 people, and associated 20 other production costs. 21 2925 That would be a very difficult -- 22 2926 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That might 23 give you the dollars, say 20 people. 24 2927 MR. SWITZER: If it involved -- and I 25 say "if". If that was their proposal and their
1 recommendation and we said in the third year the 2 combination required savings between the PLWINX is in 3 the order of plus or minus 750 or $800,000, what are 4 your choices; give us your suggestions as to the least 5 painful way to do this -- if they were to propose that, 6 we think the stations would be much worse off. 7 2928 But that would generate approximately 8 what we would require. 9 2929 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Perhaps I can 10 ask -- 11 2930 MS LONE: Sorry, I was just going to 12 butt in here. 13 2931 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Butt away. 14 2932 MS LONE: I work at The NewRO and it 15 is not from a money point of view but strictly from a 16 marketing point of view. For the past four years we 17 have dedicated our lives to building this station and 18 to be well respected in the community. In September we 19 launched the breakfast show unique only to Ottawa. 20 People have a certain expectation of us now, which 21 again with our ratings last night it proves this. 22 2933 I think with the expectations that we 23 have built with our viewers and the respect we have in 24 the community, the pare-back scenario is not obviously 25 what we would like to do.
1 2934 From the strictly marketing point of 2 view and selfish point of view, it takes us back a 3 step. 4 2935 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Ms Lone, 5 would it be helpful -- and I can understand exactly 6 what you are saying, and perhaps we can have a 7 discussion on the downside of this, because there will 8 be a financial downside as well as a financial gain. I 9 can't believe that this is just a one-way street. 10 2936 Would it be helpful to you and your 11 colleagues in the three different station groups to 12 give you a shorter licence term so that you can prove 13 yourself and show that this worst case scenario in fact 14 isn't the problem it is; so that you can get out there 15 and sell; so that you can get out there and find new 16 sources of revenue and find new ways to make your 17 energy pay? 18 2937 Would it be helpful to have a shorter 19 licence term so that you are not stuck with seven 20 years; so that we are not stuck with trying not make 21 conditions of licence that will bind for seven years, 22 although I know you can come back? 23 2938 Would that be a helpful thing for you 24 to have? 25 2939 MR. MILLER: I think, Commissioner
1 Langford, that is not really a fair question directed 2 at Marlene. 3 2940 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I direct it 4 to you, then, based on the -- actually, I think it is 5 fair to put it to the people who have to live with it. 6 2941 But if you want to go first, 7 Mr. Miller, that is fine with me. 8 2942 MR. MILLER: I will tell you why. 9 You are asking a legal matter, a legal matter of a 10 conditional licence and what the repercussions are of 11 that. 12 2943 I think we have said very clearly 13 that we need the certainty going forward. I don't 14 think we need to repeat what we said yesterday. I 15 think we had that conversation. 16 2944 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Well, I think 17 if I feel a question needs asking, I may just be in a 18 different space than you are, Mr. Miller. Maybe it is 19 not as clear in my mind. 20 2945 I would like to hear from the troops 21 on the ground about this cloud hanging over them. I 22 would like to hear about how they would feel about 23 having a smaller time frame where at least they might 24 feel more secure. 25 2946 Or perhaps we would look at different
1 time frames within it. 2 2947 I am curious to know about other 3 scenarios. We have heard from the corporate group 4 about how this might be done. We have been told by the 5 corporate group that a lot of decisions are made by 6 these stations directors. We have the station 7 directors in front of us now. 8 2948 I don't think it is so much a legal 9 question. There is nothing so complicated about the 10 differences between three and seven years, setting a 11 time frame as a kind of test over, say, three years, 12 two years -- we can talk about different numbers -- 13 versus seven years, versus locking into a seven-year 14 scenario. 15 2949 MR. MILLER: With all due respect, 16 Commissioner Langford, we are not talking about locking 17 in cuts. We are talking about locking in the 18 flexibility that we as a corporate group need to know 19 what our minimum commitments are for the next seven 20 years. 21 2950 You are absolutely correct, and we 22 want you to have the discussion as to what our general 23 managers and their teams will do as we ask them to deal 24 with the savings that we think they are going to have 25 to deal with. That discussion we encourage you to
1 have. 2 2951 The issue of what this company needs 3 in terms of certainty on minimum commitments is a 4 different matter than I think the one that you want to 5 get into, which is how these teams will face the 6 challenges of the savings that they are going to need 7 to seek. 8 2952 MR. GARRAWAY: You were concerned 9 about getting me on the record, so I will make your day 10 in that regard. 11 2953 I think we should maybe go back to 12 the basic understanding; that we are not here, I don't 13 think, to discuss cuts. That is not what we have done. 14 2954 If you look at each of the three 15 stations represented here, we have grown our stations. 16 We have grown our markets. 17 2955 Nigel was talking about the growth in 18 his market. He is new there and he is having exciting 19 growth. We are 47 years in our market and yet we have 20 just had the highest, year over year, growth in our 6 21 o'clock news audiences in the history of the station. 22 2956 So there are a lot of exciting things 23 that we continue to do and introduce and be 24 complimented for and have viewers added to our 25 complement every day.
1 2957 What we are talking about, I think, 2 is flexibility. It doesn't seem to me that a 3 short-term licence hanging over our head as one more 4 issue would be particularly helpful. I know it 5 wouldn't be to me. 6 2958 I think what we are looking at is an 7 opportunity for some very creative, energetic, 8 committed people to go back and look at their options. 9 Of course we are going to look at all of the options 10 across the station where we can make economies as 11 necessary. We would like to preserve what we have. We 12 would like to grow what we have. 13 2959 There is the reality of a reduced 14 revenue base that we need to deal with. I think, 15 given, the opportunity, we will find creative ways to 16 do the absolute best. 17 2960 Picking up on Mr. Sherratt this 18 morning, who said it is often very useful to look back, 19 I think if you look back at the seven-year 20 accomplishments of the people at this table, you have 21 to know that we are committed to what we do. We are 22 committed to our audiences, and we are committed to our 23 product, if I can put it that way. We will remain 24 committed. 25 2961 We are not looking for opportunities
1 to cut. It is painful to talk about how many people 2 would it take to strike from your staff list to make 3 this work. If we have our way, it will be none. 4 2962 The reality is that we have to look 5 at everything. 6 2963 Give us an opportunity, give us some 7 flexibility, and watch what we can do. 8 2964 MR. MUDRY: If I can just pick up 9 from what Doug said, as someone on the ground -- 10 2965 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Could I get 11 to you in a minute? I really want to press on this. 12 2966 I rarely do this. I rarely cut 13 anyone off. In fact, I don't think I ever have. But 14 please excuse me on this one occasion, sir. 15 2967 Would it be helpful for us to impose 16 the sort of higher expectations in the sense of local 17 or regional numbers, hours, conditions of licence? 18 Would that be helpful in the sense of keeping you 19 focused on the sort of programming you have done in the 20 past and keeping you focused in finding other sources 21 of revenue, other ways to make what you are obviously 22 so proud of continue to work? 23 2968 MR. GARRAWAY: I don't think that 24 would be helpful. I think we are focused; we are 25 committed. I think we know what the task is.
1 2969 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What we see 2 is a potential in the plan you have laid out with cuts 3 in overall hours in certain areas, looking at minimums, 4 this sort of language, and the sorts of scenarios that 5 have been painted both at the corporate level and that 6 we have spoken about today of cutting crews and 7 bringing in region-wide, Ontario-wide programming and 8 feeding bits and pieces in -- as Mr. Fuller said, 9 rather than having your own show that you people are 10 obviously so proud of and have demonstrated so ably in 11 these videos and opening statements. 12 2970 All of that is possible if we accept 13 the minimum numbers you are looking for today and cast 14 them in some way into conditions of licence. 15 2971 On the other hand, it becomes less 16 possible -- let's leave the financial impact aside for 17 a moment. The actual impact on people and on 18 programming becomes less likely if we build in higher 19 hours and conditions of licence. 20 2972 Wouldn't that give you some comfort? 21 2973 MR. MUDRY: Might I respond to that 22 as one of this team of general managers? 23 2974 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Absolutely. 24 2975 MR. MUDRY: I think that Mr. Sherratt 25 earlier today in the discussion about different sizes
1 of cups of coffee, and so on, talked about the 2 difference between a good cup of coffee and a bad cup 3 of coffee. Certainly whatever number of hours are 4 given to us as a condition of licence of local 5 programming that we have to produce, if we run into 6 tough times, if we run into a jam, if the doomsday 7 scenario comes to pass, our only choice at that point 8 is to make a rather weak, insipid cup of coffee for our 9 viewers, which is not going to be serving them. 10 2976 That is why, from our standpoint, we 11 don't believe it would be a good idea to go to the 12 higher end. We think it would be more advantageous to 13 give us the flexibility we have requested. 14 2977 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: There is 15 another corporate option, and that is to infuse more of 16 CHUM's money into your situation, into your station, to 17 help you ride out whatever period of time might need to 18 be ridden out. 19 2978 There are bags of money in different 20 areas in the CHUM empire, in radio, in specialties, 21 whatever, that could perhaps be lightened to help you 22 folks along. 23 2979 Is that one of the scenarios you have 24 looked at? Do you know? You may not know. 25 2980 MR. MUDRY: Unfortunately, it is not
1 entirely under my control, and I would have to defer to 2 those whose control it is under. 3 2981 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: We could 4 structure licence conditions in such a way that that 5 might be more palatable. If certain conditions had to 6 be met, perhaps the only way to do it would be to 7 either go the shareholders or go to the bank. If this 8 worst case scenario that has been painted in your 9 application in here were to transpire -- and I, for 10 one, don't think it will; but that is just my own view 11 of it. I don't have as glum a view of the future as 12 you do. 13 2982 I don't know when to get back to 14 Mr. McLaughlin. I don't want to leave him out in the 15 rain. 16 2983 Also, Mr. Sherratt, or somebody, had 17 a light on there for a second. 18 2984 MR. SHERRATT: You suggested that 19 they would come to CHUM's door, and we would have a 20 bagful of money sitting there for them. 21 2985 I would like to reiterate what has 22 been said here more than once during this proceeding: 23 that we already have lost $46 million on these stations 24 in southern Ontario since we took them over. They are 25 just starting to see their way out of that. The money
1 has to come from somewhere. There isn't a magic genie 2 in the basement on Yonge Street printing money every 3 day. The money comes from advertisers and from the 4 businesses that we operate. 5 2986 Eventually, every unit has to become 6 self-sustaining and has to be able to contribute its 7 part to the overall success of the company. 8 2987 We have made those investments. We 9 continue to make them today, and we will continue to 10 make them. Based on what we know now, our revenue 11 level against our conventional television stations is 12 going to decrease. That is a fact of life. We accept 13 that. 14 2988 The decision was made to put more 15 television in Toronto. It has to affect what is there, 16 what is already there doing what it is doing. There 17 has to be fall-out. It is impossible to have it any 18 other way. 19 2989 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Well, that's 20 a projection, I would say, not a fact of life yet. You 21 have to admit that. It is a projection. It may be 22 your best effort. It may be a wise projection. It 23 might be a right projection, but at this point it is a 24 projection. 25 2990 MR. SHERRATT: It would be
1 irresponsible of us to come here before you today and 2 say nothing has changed; that our revenues will be 3 wonderful; that we are going to do all of this 4 programming for the next seven years and then find out 5 that we can't do it. That would be irresponsible on 6 our part. 7 2991 We have come here to put the facts 8 before you as we see them. 9 2992 I agree with you that the sky is not 10 falling, and it won't fall. There are clouds on the 11 horizon. But as in all things, the weather will clear 12 and we will proceed ahead. 13 2993 I hope, like you, that the weather 14 clears faster than perhaps our projections indicate it 15 will. If it does, the programming will be there. If 16 it doesn't, we have to be nimble enough to react 17 quickly, very quickly, in order to do what we can. 18 2994 In our 48-year history, we have only 19 had one case I can think of where we did actual layoffs 20 as such. It happened when there was a downturn in an 21 area and a decline in television in the Maritimes, 22 where we had to cut out a section of a show. That is 23 when it happened. That is the only time I can remember 24 having mass layoffs. 25 2995 That is the last thing that this
1 company ever wants to do. Our people are our most 2 important product. We have built everything we have 3 with the best people in this business, so we are not 4 going after them. 5 2996 It is quite upsetting to have this 6 discussion, but we felt we had to bring it before you. 7 There are people at home tonight wondering what might 8 happen to them. 9 2997 I can tell them and I can tell you 10 that we are going to look under every rock, we are 11 going to cancel paper clip purchases, we won't have any 12 pencils before the people go. But if something happens 13 that we have to cut, the only way you can do it is in a 14 chunk. That is what they have been trying to describe 15 to you. 16 2998 That is only one way we are going to 17 find this money, and that is sort of the last way we 18 hope to have to find it. 19 2999 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Let me try 20 something on you, Mr. Sherratt, using your word 21 "irresponsible". I am borrowing it from you. It isn't 22 a word I thought of until you used it. Let me try a 23 scenario on you. 24 3000 Might it not be equally or even more 25 irresponsible to give up too soon on a dream and a type
1 of programming that you have built for so many years 2 that you have made your own just -- let me finish, 3 please. 4 3001 I am not often that long -- well, 5 that's not true. I do go on, don't I. Let me go on 6 this one more time, and the next as well. 7 3002 Wouldn't it be perhaps more 8 irresponsible to even contemplate scenarios of throwing 9 that away or reducing it or morphing into more of the 10 same when what you have built, as we have seen today 11 and yesterday, as Mr. Znaimer and Mr. Switzer have told 12 us, going back to Mr. Switzer's parents and "Moses and 13 the bullrushes", to the dawn of time -- wouldn't it be 14 just as irresponsible, perhaps more so, to contemplate 15 throwing that away, to waste a lot of time working on 16 scenarios to throw that away when if things are 17 improving, if things are beginning to turn around, the 18 other alternative is to inject a little more of the 19 shareholders' cash into it, of the corporate cash into 20 it, and keep it going and let it grow and let it be 21 exactly what you tell us it can be? 22 3003 MR. SHERRATT: That is what we do. 23 That is what we have been doing for the last four and a 24 half years since we acquired these stations. That is 25 precisely what we have been doing and precisely what we
1 are going to continue to do. 2 3004 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You have come 3 to us and you have kind of waved the TV policy and 4 said: We can look at local in this way. We aren't 5 required to do any more than to reflect somehow the 6 region. Here's the bare minimum. We are going to add 7 a little more to the minimum but let us have the 8 flexibility to do a lot less and to change what we do 9 into something else, from straight local to something 10 regional. 11 3005 I would remind you, as I am sure you 12 must know, television policy yes, perhaps would allow 13 that; but television policy isn't made in a vacuum. 14 When the television policy was constructed, you were 15 what you are. 16 3006 When we make a statement that local, 17 in our view, is being well served, you are part of that 18 equation. 19 3007 To come back and say now you have 20 made that statement and your own policy allows us to 21 back out the back door, so we may give up on a dream; 22 we may give up on the whole raison d'être that we 23 described when we made this takeover or exchange 24 application back in 1997. 25 3008 That strikes me as perhaps
1 irresponsible, if I may editorialize and use your word. 2 It also strikes me as perhaps extreme when the 3 alternative is perhaps to take another view and to stay 4 with your vision, to stay with your dream, and to stay 5 with the kind of service that your intervenors are 6 going to come in here today and crow about -- 7 rightfully so. That seems to me to be the more logical 8 course. 9 3009 MR. SHERRATT: If that is the 10 impression we have left up until now, we have done a 11 disastrous job here. That is not what we hold close to 12 our hearts or that we hold close to what our business 13 practice is or what we are going to do. That is not 14 what we have been telling you. 15 3010 We have been telling you that our 16 revenues are going to drop. When the revenues drop, 17 you have to find a way to make savings in order to 18 continue to do the kinds of things that we do hold 19 close to our hearts, that we are going to continue to 20 do and intend to continue to do. 21 3011 The only way you can do that is to 22 look around at ways to save money so you can keep the 23 businesses going. 24 3012 What we have been trying to say is 25 that the last thing in the world we want to do is hurt
1 our local service. Local service is two things: it's 2 quantity and it's quality. 3 3013 The quantity that we are talking 4 about and that you are thinking about, Commissioner, is 5 very recent. Those numbers have come off pretty good 6 times and high investment to do that. 7 3014 Now we say: Wait a minute. We are 8 going to have to look at every way possible, because 9 our revenue base that we had planned on, and that all 10 our planning is based on, is going to be eroded. 11 3015 How do we fix that? We reduce 12 overheads as best we can and not hurt our basic 13 fundamental structure and what we are: our programming 14 and our reflection of the community. 15 3016 Doing it with weak tonnage would be 16 worse, I suggest, than doing less of it and continuing 17 to do it exceedingly well to the satisfaction of the 18 people that we serve. 19 3017 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: If that is 20 the message, let me go back to the station managers 21 now, if I can categorize you generally in that way. 22 Everybody has slightly different titles, and I don't 23 want to offend anyone. 24 3018 If that is the message, what we have 25 just heard, then how do you continue to serve your
1 communities locally under the type of régime that 2 Mr. Sherratt has just described? How do you have the 3 certainty that you can tell the charities when they 4 come in, the charities in these interventions that we 5 have books of that laud you for your work -- and 6 properly so, I assume -- the very points that you have 7 seen to put into your briefs, your supplementary briefs 8 that you are so proud of, the community work, how do 9 you tell these people that you are going to be there 10 for them under those conditions? 11 3019 MR. McLAUGHLIN: Because we work for 12 CHUM and because of our history, we have served our 13 communities well and I believe with all my heart that 14 we will continue to serve our communities well. 15 3020 I have been listening here about 16 flexibility, and to me that is absolutely key. There 17 is some uncertainty. We do know that revenues are 18 going to drop and that it is going to affect the 19 station that I work at. 20 3021 We don't make widgets. We are not a 21 car factory. So to say that we are going to drop a 22 shift is not something that we can equate to, because 23 we create television. We have an integrated staff. It 24 means an entire rethink, using some very creative 25 people that we have at our station, to make this work.
1 3022 I believe with all my heart that CHUM 2 will do everything it can to help us, to provide that 3 guidance, because it does believe in that intensely 4 local, intensely community-oriented television station. 5 3023 I believe what we need is that 6 flexibility so there isn't a cloud hanging over our 7 head. 8 3024 When you talked about a shorter 9 licence period, I can't think of anything that would 10 put a bigger cloud over our head than that, for me, in 11 attracting talent, in attracting the kind of people at 12 our station that are going to have to help us get 13 through this. 14 3025 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Mr. 15 McLaughlin, I appreciate your eloquence and your 16 commitment, and I don't say that to kiss you off, as my 17 kids would say. I do appreciate it. It is helpful to 18 us to hear this kind of thing, to know what kind of raw 19 material this corporate entity is lucky enough to have 20 onside and on its team. 21 3026 But when I talk about a shorter term, 22 let me try a scenario on the folks from London. 23 3027 In a sense your very application for 24 London/Wingham/Wheatley/Windsor has a built-in two-year 25 licence term. We didn't create that. You did.
1 3028 You know what I am referring to. 2 There was to be a drastic cutback to some of these 3 smaller areas. The Mayor of Windsor spoke out. 4 Perhaps that wasn't what sparked your change; perhaps 5 something internally did. Something sparked a change, 6 and now you have refiled another scenario where for two 7 years you would supply the same sort of local input and 8 local sensitivity that you have been supplying. 9 3029 That in a sense is a kind of shorter 10 term of licence that you have created yourself. 11 3030 There obviously is some comfort in it 12 for you. 13 3031 MR. MUDRY: That is an interesting 14 observation that you have made. Originally, as you had 15 said, the company had filed for there to be no separate 16 local programming in Windsor and no separate local 17 programming in Wingham if the worst case scenario were 18 to have taken place. 19 3032 In fact, prior to the recent filing 20 by CHUM Limited with regard to what they saw as the 21 need for flexibility we at CFPL Television had lengthy 22 discussions with the company saying: Don't do this. 23 Give us the chance to show you that with what we had 24 originally filed for these stations, we can make it 25 work.
1 3033 At that point Jay Switzer and Ron 2 Waters and so on said: Okay, in essence we will give 3 you a couple of years to do it, in the way that that 4 was filed. 5 3034 I think that says something, too, 6 about the dynamics in the company and about the 7 commitment to trying to find a way to make these things 8 work locally. 9 3035 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: We could go 10 on for a long time -- yes, Mr. Znaimer, go ahead. 11 3036 MR. ZNAIMER: I was going to express 12 a little puzzlement about your position. 13 3037 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Actually, I 14 don't have a position, but I have some puzzlement 15 myself. Maybe that is what you are hearing. 16 3038 MR. ZNAIMER: Indeed, and you have 17 made some suggestions. 18 3039 What puzzles me is why you would 19 prefer to take from us at the point of a condition of 20 licence what we would freely give, and why at the 21 moment of hypothetical crisis when we need the most 22 flexibility you would shackle us to a new hearing? 23 That is exactly what we hoped to avoid. 24 3040 It is the flexibility to act in the 25 moment that we are seeking.
1 3041 We have assured you time and time 2 again that the instant our time of troubles is past we 3 would return to this rather more sophisticated version 4 of these stations that you now see today. 5 3042 To stretch an analogy, we have built 6 this up relatively recently into quite a Rolls Royce 7 operation, and if we have to drive a Chevy for a year 8 or two we will do that. We will still get to where we 9 are going. 10 3043 As our situation improves, you can 11 see from the intensity of the people before you and the 12 track record that we will return to this fancier 13 vehicle. 14 3044 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I would 15 suppose -- and we normally don't answer questions here; 16 we ask them. It is a fair question, I think, and I 17 will try to answer it. I won't answer more than one, 18 though, because I don't want to set the kind of 19 precedent that would set my fellow Commissioners teeth 20 to grinding. 21 3045 I would suppose that my line of 22 questioning springs directly out of the tone that runs 23 through your entire application on this question of 24 local/regional programming. 25 3046 I am puzzled, as I said yesterday, by
1 the disconnect between the history that we have in 2 video, on paper, in words, and the kind of black sense 3 that you have been dealt a blow and the only way out 4 may be to abandon what has made you so distinct and 5 what your group, if I can put it that way, your 6 conventional group -- I know you dislike that word, but 7 we do have to try to frame it -- has spent a lifetime 8 creating. To somehow even put water in that wine 9 perplexes me. 10 3047 If you had simply suggested it once 11 or twice, but it runs through -- it is difficult to 12 state. I may be exaggerating. I will say, for the 13 sake of context, that it seems to run through every 14 third paragraph of your supplementary briefs. It just 15 goes on and on and on. 16 3048 That, of course, brings its own 17 message. The message is not a very optimistic one. It 18 seems to me that we look at what we have. We see the 19 message that comes through this repetition, repetition 20 and repetition, and we say to ourselves -- or I say to 21 myself; I had better speak in the singular. 22 3049 I say to myself, as a regulator in 23 the public interest: What do I do here in the public 24 interest? What am I really being told here, and what 25 do I do to ensure that I get the message and that we
1 protect the public interest and community interest at 2 all levels? 3 3050 That is the answer to that. 4 3051 MR. ZNAIMER: If the written 5 submissions did give you that impression, we are here 6 to correct it. 7 3052 There is no question of abandon. 8 That word was never used by anyone in our entire 9 delegation. 10 3053 What we are hypothesizing here is a 11 theoretical retreat. We have indicated that we want to 12 make it as modest as possible, as small a retreat for 13 as small a period of time as possible. 14 3054 For the rest, I would just be 15 repeating everything you have heard. As you say, you 16 will hear from intervenors. 17 3055 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I don't think 18 everyone got a chance, but everyone had a chance on 19 this issue. Even Mr. McLaughlin got in, and I am glad 20 of that. 21 3056 I think that we have covered the 22 ground today. I hope we have. My colleagues may have 23 other questions. We have done the specifics. We have 24 looked again from the front lines at this whole 25 question of local and, much to Mr. Miller's horror, I
1 suppose, we plumbed some areas he perhaps wished we 2 wouldn't. 3 3057 Thank you very much. Those are all 4 of my questions. 5 3058 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner 6 Grauer. 7 3059 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Just one thing 8 that may perhaps explain certainly where I am coming 9 from and perhaps my colleagues. 10 3060 Throughout a period of time when you 11 have been before the Commission successfully applying 12 for specialty services, successfully applying for 13 licences on the west coast most recently, the arguments 14 and the rationale in particular with the specialty 15 services has been that you had conventional services 16 that were there, were strong, can subsidize these 17 babies, get them launched, and that the whole was 18 greater than the sum of its parts; that the synergies 19 were the key. 20 3061 That, in fact, was accepted by the 21 Commission and you have been very successful in that 22 respect. 23 3062 When I was going over the 24 applications I actually went back and got the original 25 application for Pulse24, because I thought it would be
1 instructive to look. In particular it was manageable, 2 the Pulse24 application, with your Citytv service. 3 3063 I note that you highlight stability. 4 You say: 5 "It takes financial depth and 6 professional discipline not to 7 panic at the first sign of 8 trouble. We are known for 9 smart, controlled advertising, 10 selling at reasonable rates and 11 without alarm even during tough 12 times." (As read) 13 3064 Later on in the application you talk 14 about presenting Pulse24 as a stand-alone channel for 15 purposes of analysis. 16 "It is important to note that 17 the direct operating costs 18 provided are low because they 19 are incremental to our existing 20 infrastructures. This leverage 21 allows Pulse24 to minimize cable 22 and advertising revenue." 23 (As read) 24 3065 This is where we struggle, because it 25 was a viable argument when you were looking for new
1 licences. But now when we are not necessarily 2 persuaded that the addition of two new channels in the 3 Toronto area, after a period of some 25 years, is a 4 death knell, you are coming looking for relief of some 5 kind. When we look at the big package, as we say we 6 are going to do on the TV policy, it is a bit 7 challenging perhaps for us. 8 3066 We are here to make sure the public 9 is getting its return. Certainly the shareholders have 10 done well over the years, and we just want to keep 11 making sure the public does. 12 3067 MR. ZNAIMER: I want to assure you we 13 are not panicking. In fact, what we want to avoid is 14 that moment of panic when we might have to come back 15 here and prostrate ourselves before the Commission, and 16 then that Commission would likely say to us: How come 17 you didn't tell us at the moment that you were up for 18 renewal that you were facing these kinds of problems? 19 3068 What we are asking for simply is: 20 Should that moment arrive, that we have the ability to 21 do what we must as professionals to respond. 22 3069 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you. 23 3070 MR. GRAY: I would like to add 24 something to your question, very quickly. 25 3071 You talked about what is in the best
1 interest of the public. I think the point that needs 2 to be made, certainly with respect to viewers of CHRO, 3 is that the worst case scenario for the public in 4 Ottawa would have been if CHUM had not come along. 5 This television station probably wouldn't exist now. 6 3072 In 1997 when CHUM acquired CHRO, we 7 were doing what we called 12 hours of local news, but 8 it really wasn't local news. I was the news director. 9 I have to take responsibility for that. 10 3073 We had a staff of six on-air; three 11 of them were reporters. We had a budget of $900,000. 12 We were stealing material from CJOH-TV and airing it as 13 part of our local newscast. They were a sister station 14 of ours. We were taking material from the CTV National 15 News Bureau. We perhaps had two local stories in our 16 newscast every night at 6 o'clock. We had no live-eye. 17 3074 I can recall borrowing a live-eye 18 from CJOH and using it over a three-day span once in 19 three years. 20 3075 Under CHUM, at CHRO the size of the 21 news department has grown to more than 70. Our annual 22 budget for news is in the neighbourhood of $4 million. 23 We have eight senior editorial staff. We have 16 24 on-air staff, all of them functioning as reporters and 25 only twice in the last four and a half years -- that is
1 twice in four and a half years -- have we ever run a 2 packaged item by a reporter who doesn't work for our 3 television station. 4 3076 The point that I want to make here is 5 that we do not want to make cuts, but if we have to 6 make cuts then our viewers are still going to be better 7 off. We are still going to be serving them much more 8 substantively than we would have in the past and 9 certainly better than others currently are. 10 3077 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you. 11 3078 MR. ZNAIMER: I would like to add one 12 last word on this subject. The reason I am so 13 anguished about it is that I am the voice in the 14 boardroom that pushes for production. I am the voice 15 in the boardroom that wants to expand service. 16 3079 Any rational person reading this 17 transcript would say, particularly from a business 18 point of view: Don't you ever do one iota more than is 19 in the minimum, because you will be hung on it forever. 20 3080 What we said to you yesterday is you 21 allowed us the flexibility to considerably expand our 22 service. Nobody called to say don't you dare do that. 23 So we expanded up, and up comes a time when we might 24 have to "expand" down -- negative expansion -- and then 25 we will be back again.
1 3081 I think this is a terrible precedent 2 for a Commission that really wants people to do their 3 best all the time. 4 3082 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Another 5 rational person might look at it and say: They like 6 you. They like what you are doing, and they are 7 encouraging you to do it more. 8 3083 MR. ZNAIMER: Tough love. 9 3084 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It works for 10 my kids. 11 3085 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner 12 Cardozo. 13 3086 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Just a quick 14 statement and a quick question. 15 3087 I have been watching this panel and 16 the previous ones in terms of the kind of community 17 relations that you have done and that you have listed. 18 I think you do it for the purposes of being a local 19 corporation and being involved in the community. 20 3088 I just want to note that we have not 21 missed that, and we have been looking at those lists 22 quite closely. 23 3089 On the matter of aboriginal 24 programming that is done in various places, including 25 the PSA and others, do you co-operate with APTN? Have
1 you got to the stage where you make that kind of 2 programming available to them, as well? 3 3090 What I am thinking of is: Is that 4 programming made in a place like London, or does it 5 have a chance to go onto a national network like APTN? 6 3091 MS BURKE: At RO we do produce the 7 local aboriginal program "Aboriginal Voices". This 8 relationship that we have had has lasted over the past 9 seven to ten years. 10 3092 Interestingly enough, once the 11 program does air on The NewRO, it does air on the APTN 12 network. So we are very proud of that. 13 3093 One of the shows that we had in 14 development this year, "Chief Will Commanda", was also 15 broadcast on our air, and we got a lovely letter from 16 one of our viewers wanting to know when it would be 17 broadcast again because it did reflect some very 18 positive issues and was of interest to their children. 19 3094 MR. SWITZER: Commissioner Cardozo, 20 at a national level, at a corporate level, the 21 relationships with the network are excellent. We have 22 ongoing discussions and meetings. Some of the 23 programmers on the music channels, particularly as 24 pertains to youth, are involved. Sarah Crawford has 25 been very involved. Locally in Vancouver -- who are
1 not at this table right now -- at CKVU have 2 connections, as do obviously our staff in Victoria. 3 Howard and Laura are here. 4 3095 There are all kinds of ongoing 5 exchange of programs, making sure that we are covering 6 events in both directions. The relationship is 7 exceptional, in part because it has happened naturally 8 and in part because I am making sure it is a priority. 9 3096 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you very 10 much. 11 3097 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 12 3098 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 13 much. 14 3099 We are now going to take the first 15 intervention, and then we will break for an hour for 16 dinner and come back afterwards. There is an 17 intervenor we are trying to accommodate who has to make 18 a presentation elsewhere. 19 3100 Thank you, all, for what has been a 20 longer and more difficult, shall we say, hearing than 21 perhaps we had thought. I think a lot of the issues 22 are on the record, and for your co-operative answers we 23 thank you very much. 24 3101 MR. SWITZER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman 25 and Commissioners, for a very constructive process.
1 3102 MR. LEBEL: Mr. Chairman, while the 2 panel stands down, I would like to indicate that 3 intervenors Nos. 3, 18 and 24 on the agenda will not 4 appear. These interventions will remain on the public 5 file as non-appearing interventions. 6 3103 Intervention No. 11 will appear now 7 via telephone. 8 3104 Mr. Chairman, since we are running 9 late, and since intervenors appearing via telephone 10 were advised that they would appear earlier than it is 11 now, we will alternate between intervenors appearing 12 here and on the telephone. 13 3105 The first appearing intervenor will 14 be the Directors Guild of Canada. Appearing on their 15 behalf is Mr. Alan Goluboff, with Mr. Grant Buchanan. 16 --- Pause 17 PHASE II 18 3106 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please. À 19 l'ordre, s'il vous plaît. 20 3107 Counsel? 21 3108 MR. HOWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 22 3109 I would like to clarify for 23 intervenors that the Commission has asked that a number 24 of documents and information be filed by the Applicant. 25 We will follow the same procedure we followed with
1 regard to the very first group of materials; that is, 2 ten days for intervenors to reply upon having received 3 the information and three days after that for CHUM to 4 reply to that. 5 3110 Any confidential material will have 6 to be decided by the Commission beforehand. 7 3111 MR. LEBEL: Gentlemen, you have ten 8 minutes to make your presentation. 9 INTERVENTION 10 3112 MR. GOLUBOFF: Thank you very much, 11 Commissioners. It is our pleasure to be here. 12 3113 My name is Alan Goluboff. I am the 13 President of the Directors Guild of Canada. With me 14 today are Pamela Brand, our National Executive 15 Director, and Grant Buchanan of McCarthy Tétrault, our 16 legal counsel. 17 3114 CHUM has made significant 18 contributions to the Canadian broadcasting system. It 19 has invented and exported a brand known the world over. 20 CHUM's championing and support of the independent 21 filmmaker must be commended, and we hope all the other 22 broadcasters might do the same. 23 3115 We support the renewal of all of the 24 CHUM licences being considered in this proceeding. 25 However, these are seven-year licences, and we have
1 recommended four specific additions and/or 2 clarifications. 3 3116 The first is the failure of Citytv to 4 move to eight hours of priority programming per week 5 during the licence term. The second is that the 6 appropriate benchmark to be used for the expenditure 7 benefits at CKVU in Vancouver be clarified. The third 8 relates to specific commitments with respect to the 9 broadcasting of programs produced by B.C. independent 10 producers and resulting from the benefits package at 11 CKVU. The fourth is a suggestion we have made that 75 12 per cent of the priority programming aired on CHUM's 13 stations consist of Canadian independently-produced 14 programming. 15 3117 Before addressing these detailed 16 recommendations, we would like to comment on the issue 17 of CHUM's current situation. 18 3118 CHUM opposed the licensing of any new 19 stations in Toronto and, in the wake of the 20 Commission's approval of the two stations, filed 21 supplementary evidence from its own sales department in 22 this proceeding. 23 3119 In the Commission's introduction to 24 the Toronto decisions, it said: 25 "...the fact that the existing
1 licensees are major broadcasters 2 makes them well positioned to 3 compete... 4 Based upon available economic 5 forecasts, the growth of 6 television advertising revenues 7 is expected to further 8 contribute to the capacity of 9 the markets to absorb the entry 10 of two new stations in the 11 Toronto area... 12 Also, as previously discussed, 13 the regional coverage and 14 concomitant revenue enjoyed by 15 the majority of the incumbent 16 stations will aid those 17 licensees in absorbing the 18 impact of new local television 19 services..." 20 3120 The same considerations that 21 propelled the Commission to overcome CHUM's concerns in 22 that Toronto situation should, in our view, also apply 23 here. We are not proposing huge changes to what CHUM 24 has already promised, and these should be within the 25 ability of the CHUM organization to achieve.
1 3121 Citytv should be required to air 2 eights hours of priority programming per week. 3 3122 The Guild finds it unacceptable that 4 CHUM is not stepping up to the plate with respect to 5 bringing its flagship station up to the industry 6 standard of eight hours per week. The eight-hour 7 figure not only applies to CanWest and CTV. All of 8 CHUM's other stations are at the eight-hour per week 9 level. Even all of the Craig stations are going to 10 eight hours, even though they cover only 42 per cent of 11 Canada. 12 3123 Instead, CHUM offers only six hours, 13 growing to seven hours in the latter years of the 14 seven-year term. Given that we are already in the 15 month of May, we suggested that the movement to eight 16 hours could be deferred a year, but no more than that. 17 3124 Citytv is one of the best known 18 brands in the country. We outlined in our brief a 19 number of additional reasons for going to eight hours, 20 including that Citytv is available now to more than 13 21 million Canadians. We also noted in the Commission's 22 Toronto introduction the comment that CHUM's 23 conventional stations have the ability to reach 67 per 24 cent of Canadians. Not only that, but they reach most 25 of them more than once!
1 3125 In our view, the power of the CHUM 2 organization as evidenced in venues other than 3 regulatory proceedings ought to be sufficient to 4 justify an eight-hour per week requirement. 5 3126 Last week CHUM reported great 6 six-month results. Revenues were up over 16 per cent 7 year over year and EBITDA was 15.6 per cent compared 8 with 13.8 per cent last year. Notwithstanding the two 9 new Toronto licences, management is quoted as saying 10 that it "does not expect the impact on the Company's 11 revenues as a whole to be material". 12 3127 CHUM argues in its reply that 13 Citytv's character and reputation will be harmed and 14 that the imposition of further requirements at this 15 time could well have the effect of "killing the golden 16 goose that laid the golden egg". While the fractured 17 fairy tale analogy is not necessarily misplaced, we 18 don't think that adding one hour to the seven proposed 19 by CHUM is going to have anything like the impact they 20 suggest. 21 3128 This is not a complete rewriting of 22 the television policy. Rather, if Citytv is not moved 23 up to eight hours, it will be the only station of any 24 size that is owned by an entity covering more than 40 25 per cent of Canada that is not at that level. All of
1 the stations owned by CBC, CTV, CanWest, Craig and CHUM 2 -- except Citytv. 3 3129 MS BRAND: Thank you, Alan. 4 3130 We indicated our concern about proper 5 benchmarking of transfer benefits at the time of the 6 CKVU hearing. This concern was heightened when we 7 reviewed the numbers in the CKVU licence renewal 8 document. They were even lower than the projections at 9 the time of the CKVU hearing, a development which is 10 clearly unacceptable. In the takeover application CHUM 11 was planning to spend $7.7 million on drama over the 12 licence term, without benefits, but now that has sunk 13 to $4.5 million for drama and comedy combined. 14 3131 At the time of the takeover hearing 15 CHUM proposed to use a three-year rolling average of 16 expenditures on its existing stations as the benchmark 17 rather than using what CanWest had been spending on 18 those categories at CKVU. The Commission has always 19 used what had been spent at the station being acquire 20 as the appropriate measure. 21 3132 In its decision the Commission 22 appeared to agree with that. We were advised at the 23 time of filing our intervention that the subsequent 24 meeting with CHUM to hash out the reporting 25 requirements has not yet occurred.
1 3133 CHUM's reply indicates that now these 2 meetings are under way. Accordingly, we will leave it 3 to the Commission to ensure that the appropriate 4 benchmark is made clear since: 5 3134 1. It forms the basis of the 6 incrementality of CHUM's biggest CKVU promise: $7 7 million. 8 3135 2. CHUM's renewal document shows 9 millions of dollars less in drama spending than was 10 projected at the time of the CKVU hearing. 11 3136 In the renewal CHUM appeared to 12 commit to airing all feature films produced with the 13 CKVU benefits monies but not necessarily the 14 documentaries. The Guild thinks the Commission should 15 require CHUM to broadcast all of the programs created 16 using this initiative, both documentaries and feature 17 films. This requirement should be set as a condition 18 of both CKVU and Citytv by way of condition of licence. 19 3137 With respect to the commitment to 20 broadcast the short fiction films created by the 21 "Vancouver's Other Stories" initiative, CHUM should be 22 required by way of condition of licence to broadcast 23 all of these programs on CKVU. 24 3138 CHUM stopped short of making a 25 commitment with respect to a minimum amount of priority
1 programming that would consist of Canadian 2 independently-produced production. In the Guild's 3 view, CHUM should be required to ensure that a minimum 4 of 75 per cent of the priority programming aired on its 5 stations consists of independently-produced programs. 6 This is the same level as CanWest and CTV had enshrined 7 in their station group renewal decisions. There should 8 also be a reporting requirement with respect to 9 independent production as is the case with those 10 companies. 11 3139 We conclude by noting that the DGC 12 and its members do appreciate all that CHUM does for 13 the system, and we do support a full seven-year renewal 14 for its conventional stations. In our ten minutes 15 today we have highlighted four matters that we think 16 need to be fixed and/or clarified as part of this 17 review. 18 3140 Thank you for your time. We would be 19 pleased to respond to questions. 20 3141 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 21 3142 Commissioner Wylie. 22 3143 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Welcome, 23 Ms Brand and gentlemen. 24 3144 In your written intervention you 25 actually had five matters. The first one was on what
1 you call the conditionality of the promises made. 2 3145 Has that concern evaporated now? 3 3146 MR. BUCHANAN: Largely. It was 4 because of the uncertainty of the Toronto situation at 5 the time it was written, and that is now certain. 6 3147 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: I am not sure I 7 understand. Your concern, I thought, was that they 8 should not be allowed to make commitments that are 9 different from those they would have made but four. 10 3148 Has that concern disappeared? 11 3149 MR. BUCHANAN: I think you have had 12 an ample discussion with them. 13 3150 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Fine. 14 3151 With regard to the incrementality of 15 the benefits, et cetera, when you say that it would be 16 a mistake to allow the money to be expended in a matter 17 that would result in less money spent on drama than 18 CKVU under previous ownership would have spent, you 19 would consider it unacceptable if more money was spent 20 that was incremental spending but not necessarily all 21 on drama? 22 3152 I understand your interest, of 23 course, as a group, as the Guild, is to this type of 24 production. You are aware that there are other 25 categories of priority programming as well.
1 3153 MR. GOLUBOFF: You are absolutely 2 correct. Drama is something that the Guild is keenly 3 interested in and keenly concerned about and that I 4 think we should all be concerned about. I think there 5 is a need and a desire out there in the community to 6 see more Canadian drama. 7 3154 We do understand that priority 8 programming does not just include drama. We would 9 certainly love to see the money that was committed some 10 months ago towards priority programming, because that 11 is money that goes into the hands of the creative 12 community, a part of which we represent. 13 3155 We represent primarily people that 14 work in the dramatic world, but not only. It is that 15 money that we want to see, as a commitment that they 16 have made, ending up in the hands of creators. It is 17 certainly the creators that ultimately are required to 18 make the programming that helps all of these station 19 groups continue to operate. 20 3156 MR. BUCHANAN: The promise is 21 $7 million was only in two categories. It was not 22 across all priority programming. There were only two: 23 2B, long form docs and this one. 24 3157 The seven-year financials that they 25 filed for CKVU show zero for long form docs all the way
1 across the seven years. Our question is: There can 2 only be one category that it is going into. Where is 3 it? Why is this number so much lower than the number 4 that was filed at the time of the hearing? 5 3158 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: I didn't quite 6 understand exactly where you were coming from when you 7 said they must do eight hours of priority programming 8 in City. 9 3159 You go beyond your written 10 intervention here in explaining why. 11 3160 You also applaud the brand that CHUM 12 has been able to establish in the market, not all of 13 which of course goes to the benefit of independent 14 producers. 15 3161 I know Mr. Buchanan was here. You 16 are not impressed by the argument that they want to 17 leave some peak time for other programming that is 18 exactly or is partly their brand but does not qualify 19 as priority programming as defined. That is why they 20 should remain at lower than eight hours, or should be 21 allowed to remain at lower than eight hours. 22 3162 You are not impressed by that 23 argument, considering that you applaud the brand, and 24 they make the argument that the brand is partly by 25 programming that would be more difficult to schedule if
1 they had to do eight hours of priority programming as 2 defined by the Commission. 3 3163 MR. BUCHANAN: The priority 4 programming, the magazine programming that qualifies, 5 is all about Canadian artists. It is two-thirds 6 Canada. It is promoting what you suggested be done. 7 The other stuff doesn't qualify. 8 3164 They could make it qualify by moving 9 it to a place more than 150 kilometres away, but you 10 could do that with lots of other kinds of programming, 11 as well. It simply doesn't qualify. 12 3165 I am not sure how you have a halfway 13 house for City or for CHUM that says maybe there is 14 stuff that is nearer or closer, or it almost fits, or 15 it doesn't, or maybe you could shrink the distance. 16 Maybe you could have some other reason why something 17 might qualify. It doesn't fit. 18 3166 If the question is should they not 19 have to go to eight hours because they do these other 20 things, the answer is no, that isn't an answer for it. 21 They should go to eight hours. If they want to find a 22 way to make those work, either by including more 23 Canadian portions of it to get it up to the two-thirds 24 or by moving it 150 kilometres away so it works for 25 your industrial part of that policy, there are other
1 ways to do that. 2 3167 To suggest that it might find a way 3 to squeak in when it doesn't is not a good way to go 4 about it. 5 3168 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Now that you 6 live in Toronto, Mr. Buchanan, you don't think you 7 could have Fashion Television done in Ottawa? 8 3169 MR. BUCHANAN: I am sure they could 9 find a way to do that. That would still allow them to 10 do 75 per cent with other people and 25 per cent with 11 themselves, if they wanted to do 25 per cent and do the 12 four half-hours out of Ottawa. 13 3170 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: That brings me 14 to my last question. 15 3171 When you addressed the 75 per cent, 16 Mr. Goluboff, in particular, is it that you are 17 concerned about the ownership of a production company 18 such as Sleeping Giant or that you are concerned about 19 CHUM doing too much in-house as opposed to farming it 20 out to independent producers? Or is it both? 21 3172 The 75 per cent has usually been 22 addressed within the context of the vertical 23 integration of broadcasters with independent companies. 24 It could also address the production in-house by 25 broadcasters.
1 3173 Which is it? Or is it both? 2 3174 You have read their comments about 3 Sleeping Giant and the minimal use that they propose to 4 make of it. Would the concern still remain because you 5 wouldn't want them to be producing more in-house? 6 3175 MR. GOLUBOFF: It's two things. 7 3176 First, the 75 per cent figure is not 8 our figure. It is a figure that I believe came out of 9 the Commission and was designed, if I am not mistaken, 10 for the CTV and the Global renewals of a year or so, 11 whenever they were renewed last year. 12 3177 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Would you agree 13 with me, though, that it was in the context of vertical 14 integration of production companies more than a concern 15 of in-house production? 16 3178 MR. GOLUBOFF: I know Pamela wants to 17 comment. 18 3179 MS BRAND: I think it was both. In 19 CanWest and Global's case certainly it was vertical 20 integration. Also, it is a requirement of the 21 Broadcasting Act that a certain amount of priority 22 programming be done by independent producers. 23 3180 Also, the arguments that we use for 24 CanWest and Global apply equally to CHUM: the diversity 25 of voices, the choices, the strengthening of the
1 broadcasting system. 2 3181 So to answer your question, it is 3 both. 4 3182 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Mr. Goluboff, 5 did you have anything more to add? 6 3183 MR. GOLUBOFF: No; that's fine. 7 3184 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Even with the 8 answer for Sleeping Giant your concern remains for the 9 reasons that were expressed. 10 3185 MR. GOLUBOFF: Yes. 11 3186 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Those are my 12 questions. Thank you very much. 13 3187 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner 14 Grauer. 15 3188 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: The issue on 16 reporting that we have with CTV and Global -- which I 17 don't think we have moved too far forward in terms of 18 really understanding what they are doing with 19 independent production that we discussed -- do you 20 think it would be useful to have input and discussion 21 between parties like yourselves, the independent 22 producers, to really develop the criteria for the 23 reporting so that we know what you want to be able to 24 look at on an annual basis, and the broadcasters know 25 what is going to be expected of them? Then we can also
1 maybe take a look at that. 2 3189 MR. GOLUBOFF: Certainly we would 3 love to be a part of that process and that dialogue. 4 If it is felt that we could be helpful and have 5 something valuable to add, we would happily participate 6 in that. 7 3190 Certainly the independent producing 8 community, who will speak next, I guess, will comment 9 on that. 10 3191 We will be willing, and we find it 11 desirable to have our input heard at a round table. 12 That is, I think, valuable to all of us: working 13 together to make something work for broadcasters, for 14 independent producers and obviously for the creative 15 community that I am representing. 16 3192 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: It seems to me 17 that the big challenge we have is really understanding 18 how we are going to move forward with drama and what 19 are the funding challenges for you, for the 20 broadcasters. 21 3193 MR. BUCHANAN: It would be very 22 helpful. We didn't think the original numbers in the 23 CKVU application were the right numbers, because they 24 were what we thought would be lower than the previous 25 owner's three-year rolling average. That never came
1 up, so we don't know what number we are shooting at. 2 3194 Why this number can come out lower, 3 we don't understand. 4 3195 So the answer is yes, we would love 5 to be part of it. 6 3196 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: My discussion 7 is more general than specific at this point, because to 8 what extent numbers are confidential or not needs to be 9 determined. 10 3197 MR. GOLUBOFF: The world of drama is 11 clearly the most challenging issue the entire film and 12 television industry has in this country; to deal with 13 how do we get Canadian drama into the homes and on the 14 screens of this country. 15 3198 We are all players in it. Everybody 16 that I represent is a player. The broadcasters are 17 certainly key to this, and the independent production 18 community is key to it. 19 3199 If there is any opportunity for us to 20 work together to find -- and that mechanism is 21 happening. 22 3200 It is still something we have all 23 struggled with for years and years, and to no great 24 success -- to improved success, but we have a huge way 25 to go certainly to convince the Canadian public that:
1 (1) there is Canadian drama out there worth watching; 2 and (2) that it is available to them. And it is 3 available in limited degrees. 4 3201 We talked about the eight hours 5 earlier, why those things are important to us, knowing 6 that it is not just about drama; that priority 7 programming is broader than drama. 8 3202 Finding solutions to the problem that 9 seems to be endless around the world of drama in this 10 country is the most challenging task all of us have 11 over the next 20 years: How do we get drama available 12 to Canadians and have them want to watch it? 13 3203 You as a commission can impose all 14 kinds of guidelines on the broadcasters. It does not 15 mean people are going to tune in to watch Canadian 16 drama. It is a much broader bigger issue, and there 17 are a lot of players that are keenly interested in 18 addressing it, us being one. 19 3204 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: We won't solve 20 it here tonight, but we have to keep working at it. 21 3205 Thank you. 22 3206 MR. GOLUBOFF: Thank you. 23 3207 THE CHAIRPERSON: I thought you were 24 actually going to give us the answer, Mr. Goluboff. 25 3208 MR. GOLUBOFF: I am not that hungry,
1 but I know that others are. If you wish for some other 2 answers, we just want to be part of the dialogue in 3 finding answers to the problems. I don't have all the 4 answers, clearly. 5 3209 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 6 much. 7 3210 Counsel has a question, I believe. 8 3211 MR. HOWARD: One fast question. 9 3212 With regard to City moving to eight 10 hours and the 75 per cent from independent producers, 11 you have asked that those be requirements. Are you 12 asking that they be by condition of licence? Is that 13 the suggestion? 14 3213 MR. BUCHANAN: That was the 15 suggestion. 16 3214 MR. HOWARD: Thank you. 17 3215 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 18 3216 We will now adjourn until 7:00 p.m. 19 --- Upon recessing at 1800 / Suspension à 1800 20 --- Upon resuming on at 1900 / Reprend à 1900 21 3217 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please. À 22 l'ordre, s'il vous plaît. 23 3218 Mr. Secretary. 24 3219 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 25 3220 The next appearing intervenor will be
1 the Canadian Film and TV Production Association. 2 Appearing for the Association is Elizabeth McDonald and 3 Julia Keatley. 4 3221 You have ten minutes to make your 5 presentation. 6 INTERVENTION 7 3222 MS McDONALD: Thank you. 8 3223 Mr. Chairman and Members of the 9 Commission, my name is Elizabeth McDonald, and I am the 10 President and CEO of the Canadian Film and Television 11 Production Association. 12 3224 With me today is Julia Keatley, who 13 is Chair of our Board of Directors. Julia is the 14 executive producer of Keatley Films in Vancouver, the 15 producer of "Cold Squad". She is also one of two CFTPA 16 representatives on the Board of Directors of the 17 Canadian Television Fund. 18 3225 The CFTPA represents over 400 19 companies that finance, produce, distribute and market 20 television programs, feature films and multi-media 21 products in English. Our members are present in every 22 region of Canada, from coast to coast to coast. In an 23 ever-consolidating media world, independent creators 24 have the role of ensuring diversity to the Canadian 25 broadcasting system.
1 3226 Our members obtain the rights from 2 authors and others with stories to tell, employ writers 3 to prepare screenplays, hire directors, actors and 4 crafts people to make the stories into programs and 5 conduct all the business dealings to finance the 6 provision of these stories to Canadian and sometimes 7 foreign audiences. As such, we have a vital interest 8 in the terms and conditions governing the program 9 practices of our major customers -- Canada's 10 television, pay and specialty broadcasters. 11 3227 I would like to note for the record 12 that while CHUM is a member of the CFTPA, consistent 13 with the Association's bylaws and conflict of interest 14 guidelines, no person from CHUM or any production 15 company affiliated with a broadcaster had any 16 involvement in the framing of our position on these 17 applications. 18 3228 The group renewal process gives the 19 public and interested parties the opportunity to both 20 look back at the performance of a broadcaster and to 21 have input to what they will do in the next licence 22 term. It provides us with an opportunity to look at 23 the whole of a licensee's activities and to comment on 24 the appropriateness of their proposed contributions to 25 Canadian programming.
1 3229 Our review of the past performance of 2 the CHUM television stations and our assessment of this 3 broadcaster's commitments for the upcoming licence term 4 have led to our endorsement of a seven-year renewal. 5 Since the inception of Citytv, in September 1972, CHUM 6 has carved a unique niche for itself. 7 3230 Intensely local, with a strong focus 8 on news, movies and music, CHUM's conventional 9 television stations provide a distinct alternative to 10 the offerings of the other station groups. CHUM has 11 created a vibrant, streetfront style that is accessible 12 and participatory. It television stations are widely 13 recognized for their efforts to promote various 14 communities of interest and for presenting a true 15 reflection of cultural diversity. 16 3231 Its emphasis on movies, long-form 17 drama and drama series, as well as documentaries, has 18 made it a strong supporter of the Canadian independent 19 production community, particularly first-time 20 filmmakers. CHUM's contribution consists of financial 21 support and exhibit commitments, as well as essential 22 script and concept development funding. One of the 23 most outstanding contributions that CHUM makes to the 24 system is that it provides creative support without 25 taking creative control.
1 3232 We also applaud CHUM's continued 2 emphasis on creating a Canadian star system through 3 strong promotional efforts. 4 3233 We would like to point out that 5 CHUM's distinct programming format means that its 6 television stations, unlike most other Canadian 7 services, are not beholden to U.S. network schedules. 8 It is not caught up in the frenzy of simultaneous 9 substitution and bidding wars for American sitcoms and 10 drama series. 11 3234 Our written intervention has raised a 12 couple of issues that we would like to discuss today, 13 including access to CHUM's shelf space for independent 14 producers, terms of trade, and commitments to regional 15 independent production. 16 3235 Julia. 17 3236 MS KEATLEY: Before discussing our 18 recommendations on CHUM's group renewal applications, 19 it would be remiss of me as a Vancouver producer not to 20 acknowledge the outstanding contribution that CHUM has 21 made to our local independent production community in 22 Vancouver. The comments put forward in the 23 Association's intervention are meant to ensure that the 24 positive relationship that CHUM has developed with 25 Canada's independent producers in British Columbia and
1 across Canada continues to flourish over the next seven 2 years. 3 3237 An important matter to our membership 4 is the Association's recommendation that at least 75 5 per cent of the priority programming broadcast each 6 year on CHUM's conventional television stations be 7 obtained from non-affiliated independent producers. 8 Given the excellent and mutually beneficial 9 relationship that CHUM has enjoyed with the independent 10 community over the past several years, we were frankly 11 a little puzzled by CHUM's reluctance to agree to such 12 a commitment. 13 3238 The Broadcasting Act has signalled 14 the importance of independent production to the 15 Canadian broadcasting system. Our point in making this 16 recommendation, which has been raised in the renewals 17 of CanWest, CTV and Craig, is to ensure fair access and 18 program diversity. 19 3239 Given CHUM's stated objective of 20 continuing to create a substantial body of programming 21 in-house that can be packaged and marketed around the 22 world, we need this reassurance. 23 3240 Canadian broadcasters are producers' 24 principal market. They are the key to accessing 25 funding support and tax credits. Clear programming
1 commitments are essential for the stability of the 2 Canadian production industry. 3 3241 I will turn now to an increasingly 4 important issue for us: providing a level and 5 predictable playing field when producers are 6 negotiating with broadcasters. 7 3242 The licence fee that a broadcaster 8 brings to a production is a key piece of the production 9 financing arrangements. Without a licence agreement, 10 the producer cannot access tax credits, the CTV, or 11 convince a distributor to pay an advance. 12 3243 For producers to become successful, 13 they must be fully able to exploit their copyrights and 14 catalogue. Absent such control, they are really only 15 line producers and cannot build the kinds of businesses 16 able to invest in new productions. 17 3244 We have asked the Commission to 18 endorse our idea of developing Terms of Trade 19 agreements between the producer association and 20 individual broadcast ownership groups. We welcome 21 CHUM's interest in entering into these important 22 negotiations and ask the Commission to note CHUM's 23 commitment in the decision resulting from this hearing. 24 3245 Finally, CFTPA was pleased to note 25 yesterday CHUM's agreement to broadcast totally
1 separate and distinct priority programming on City and 2 its Ontario NewNet stations. 3 3246 MS McDONALD: The last time we 4 appeared before you, it was Julia who raised the issue 5 of regional independent production. Today it is my 6 turn to address this issue. 7 3247 The commitments made by local 8 stations are very important to independent producers in 9 that region. CHUM, which has a strong commitment to 10 local reflection, as well as having a wider presence in 11 the Canadian broadcasting system and internationally, 12 is in a position to ensure that stories based in the 13 regions get a wider audience. 14 3248 Our intervention notes that CHUM has 15 already demonstrated its clear commitment to regional 16 production. Where it has made precise dollar 17 commitments (British Columbia and southern Ontario), it 18 has fully respected its obligations to offer financial 19 support to regional production. 20 3249 We suggest that a commitment to 21 regional independent production should be an ongoing 22 aspect of this broadcaster's programming strategy. 23 3250 We note that CHUM operates stations 24 in markets such as Victoria, Barrie, London and 25 Windsor. These are cities that larger station groups
1 have abandoned as not being profitable. Their program 2 plans for these stations include distinct regional 3 expression. It is our contention that producers who 4 reside in these communities are in a position to help 5 CHUM to meet its goals. 6 3251 CHUM's financial projections indicate 7 an allocation of $1.3 million for regionally produced 8 priority programming over seven years. This proposed 9 expenditure should be made a condition of licence. In 10 addition, we ask the CRTC to explore with CHUM specific 11 regional production commitments for each of its 12 conventional television stations. 13 3252 These can be framed as commitments to 14 a specific minimum number of documentary and drama 15 programs to be acquired from independent producers over 16 the licence term. 17 3253 Yesterday the Commission questioned 18 the applicant about its willingness to report annually 19 on its activity levels with independent producers. We 20 would hope that the CRTC would include such a 21 requirement in its licensing decision. Such a 22 requirement would be consistent with the renewal 23 decisions of CanWest and CTV and will ensure a 24 transparent record of the relationship between 25 broadcasters and producers.
1 3254 CFTPA has asked the Commission to 2 make CHUM's programming commitments with regard to 3 access to shelf space, priority programming, its use of 4 regional independent production, its support for script 5 and concept development, its commitment to broadcast 6 100 hours per year of Canadian long-form drama 7 programming on each of City and CKVU, and annual 8 reporting on its activities with independent producers 9 "conditions of licence". 10 3255 We do so to ensure that throughout a 11 seven-year licence term, the ability of the system to 12 exhibit quality Canadian programming is not compromised 13 by changing corporate strategies and to ensure that 14 Canadian viewers continue to have access to a wide 15 range of diverse Canadian programming. 16 3256 Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission, 17 thank you for your attention today, and we would be 18 pleased to answer any questions you may have. 19 3257 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 20 3258 Commissioner Grauer. 21 3259 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you. 22 3260 Good evening, ladies. I will try to 23 be relatively brief, because I know we have a lot of 24 territory to cover. 25 3261 One thing I would like to ask you to
1 elaborate on is: 2 "Canadian broadcasters are 3 producers' principal market. 4 They are the key to accessing 5 funding support and tax 6 credits." 7 3262 One of the things we touched on 8 briefly yesterday with CHUM was their extensive use of 9 what are called industrial productions which are 10 sourced from different parts of the country. 11 3263 It is important that we be really 12 constructive moving forward, because all of us have a 13 lot of balls in the air. I know that industrial 14 producers are members of your Association, but they 15 would not fall into this category of funding support, 16 would they? 17 3264 MS McDONALD: I will start off. 18 3265 Yes, they will still require a 19 licence fee. The licence fee level would be lower, 20 generally. You also need a Canadian broadcaster to 21 trigger the Canadian federal and some provincial 22 Canadian oriented or tax credit systems that support 23 indigenous programming. 24 3266 Julia, do you want to add something? 25 3267 MS KEATLEY: Yes. In terms of
1 service production, it tends to be what we qualify as 2 six out of seven Cancon. I think one of the 3 interesting things at the CFTPA is we have come to 4 understand that this really is part of the overall 5 picture of production within the country, and obviously 6 some of our members do that. 7 3268 As someone who sits on the board of 8 the Canadian Television Fund and having just gone 9 through the most recent round of funding decisions that 10 have been announced, there obviously isn't enough 11 specific money in that system to only support ten out 12 of ten productions. So we obviously think that the six 13 and seven are absolutely part of the mix. 14 3269 MS McDONALD: In fact, we are just 15 completing a study on the impact of industrial 16 programming, and that will be available at the end of 17 the month as part of the Cancon review. We will make 18 it public. 19 3270 It will be a companion piece to the 20 study we did on the Canadian Television Fund. 21 3271 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: I think the 22 other issue is the issue of rights ownership and where 23 that fits into the whole piece. 24 3272 Will your study be dealing with that, 25 as well?
1 3273 MS McDONALD: We will update our 2 study done last year on the Canadian Television Fund 3 and its economic impact, which I think covered about 4 one-third of the productions. 5 3274 Then there is the other mix, which is 6 the industrial programming, which is the six, even up 7 to nine out of ten programming. And then there is the 8 service production where a Canadian does not own the 9 rights and just provides a service to a foreign entity. 10 3275 MS KEATLEY: Just so you also 11 understand, this is one of the issues in terms of 12 rights, so obviously rights and the exploitation of 13 those rights are extremely important to producers. It 14 is really how we further our revenue to support us 15 through times when we are not in production and not 16 just receiving producer fees. 17 3276 This is one of the reasons why we ask 18 for terms of trade. It is one of the things that 19 governs that protocol of that relationship, so that 20 when you are negotiating that with a broadcaster who 21 has a lot of control in the situation over a lot of 22 other financing matters you have some ability to 23 negotiate and keep some rights. 24 3277 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: As you probably 25 know, we didn't have much of a discussion on the issue
1 of regional commitments with respect to programming. 2 We talked about it extensively with both CTV and 3 Global, and we decided at licence renewal for those two 4 groups that we were not going to impose quotas. 5 3278 I don't know at this point, going 6 forward with CHUM -- I was very comfortable raising the 7 issue of quotas with them. We talked about it briefly. 8 With respect to the reporting, I wonder if it wouldn't 9 be helpful, as I said to the Directors Guild, that 10 maybe if we are asking all the groups to report on some 11 of the criteria that you would view as important, to be 12 able to measure on a year by year basis. 13 3279 MS McDONALD: We would certainly 14 welcome it. I think most people are familiar with our 15 annual profile, and we started the collection of data 16 across the country. It is an extremely painful process 17 that we go through annually. 18 3280 Any opportunity to add to that body 19 of data allows people to understand what the impact of 20 their decisions is. 21 3281 I think our concern, for example, 22 with regional programming is that we are seeing shifts 23 across the country. We have some concern. There is a 24 tremendously effective production community in the 25 prairies, but I think from what we have at least seen
1 on the CTF Telefilm side in the decisions have just 2 come out, that is an area that is going to come out 3 reporting that it has less productions triggered. 4 3282 It is going to be important to 5 understand what. I think the reason that we raised the 6 issue of regional independent production is there is a 7 very rich community which is starting to face 8 considerable challenges, because there is no push to 9 license in that region. 10 3283 How broadcasters are encouraged to 11 look at those producers in an equitable fashion and 12 give them an opportunity to tell their stories is going 13 to become an issue. 14 3284 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: If we could 15 work together with your organization and others to 16 develop the criteria, of course there are going to be 17 confidentiality and competitive issues with the 18 broadcasters. Committing to an open process that can 19 measure what is happening year in and year out is 20 perhaps easier on everybody than imposing quotas and 21 going to a place that I think nobody really wants to 22 go. 23 3285 MS McDONALD: We would absolutely 24 welcome the opportunity to do that. I am sure there 25 are other parties, including the Canadian Television
1 Fund and probably Telefilm Canada -- all of us would 2 benefit and in doing it in a way that would protect 3 corporate strategies and corporate confidentiality but 4 that allows us on an annual basis to take a look at the 5 system before you are coming back in seven years, and 6 nothing can be done and excellent creators are lost to 7 the system. 8 3286 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: And maybe 9 reducing some of those regional tensions that we all 10 live with. 11 3287 MS McDONALD: Absolutely. 12 3288 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: I don't think 13 there is anything else. Thank you very much. 14 3289 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 15 3290 Commissioner Langford. 16 3291 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I hope this 17 will be a quick question, and I don't want to seem to 18 be advocating for CHUM. It might give Mr. Miller a 19 heart attack, even if I were. 20 3292 There is a very fundamental part of 21 your recommendations here today that I think might be 22 troublesome, from what we heard today and yesterday 23 from CHUM. 24 3293 You recommend that they buy into this 25 75 per cent independent production figure that people
1 have used and felt bound by, and then you add to that 2 regional production. Leave the regional for now, 3 because that it seems to me to be more in its nascence. 4 3294 If I heard CHUM correctly, they might 5 have a problem with this kind of 75 per cent 6 commitment, because they said to us on a number of 7 occasions, I think, that independent producers were 8 having a terrible time getting funding; that they would 9 declare themselves good for the licence fee, approve 10 the project, put in the applications and they would 11 just come up flat. So where does that leave them? 12 3295 If they want to be sure of having 13 product, don't they have to have the leeway to make it 14 themselves if that is what is happening to them? 15 3296 MS McDONALD: I don't think it is a 16 black and white question of: If you can't get money 17 from the Canadian Television Fund, you can't make 18 Canadian programming. There are various levels of 19 production. 20 3297 First of all, to be clear, we are 21 talking about eight hours of priority programming per 22 week; 75 per cent of that represents six hours in a 23 total seven-day week for a broadcaster. 24 3298 The second part of it is that some 25 productions are funded through the Canadian Television
1 Fund and Telefilm. Many productions are not and can be 2 done with lower licence fees using other financing 3 arrangements. That is one possible way of doing it. 4 3299 But there is other programming that 5 could meet their commitments that is not at the ten out 6 of ten level. 7 3300 Third, the CFTPA has been quite 8 active -- and you can look on our Web site -- making 9 our points quite clear to the CTF and to Telefilm or 10 the CTF to programs that some of the inequities, that 11 there is a crisis now in how the decisions are made. 12 3301 We do that believing that all 13 broadcasters should be able to benefit from that 14 program in some way and that it is time to not look at 15 the distinctly Canadian side but how the decisions are 16 made, to ensure it be more equitable. 17 3302 In fact, we have been sort of the 18 leading voices on doing that, and the Fund is listening 19 to us. 20 3303 I am sure, actually, with some of the 21 wonderful minds at CHUM, including Paul Gratton, that 22 we will be able to redefine that fund more equitably 23 across the system. 24 3304 All Canadian programming will never 25 be ten out of ten or twelve out of ten, but there is a
1 wide range between six out of ten and nine out of ten 2 which is affordable and which independent producers can 3 get the financing for. 4 3305 I think maybe Julia, who actually has 5 to do that work, may want to add to my answer. 6 3306 MS KEATLEY: I think you said it very 7 well. 8 3307 To further highlight the whole range 9 of programming, that is one of the reasons why we 10 really do continue to support that. But also in terms 11 of what happened, for instance, in this year's funding 12 round, one of the things as producers and a producer 13 association that we are doing is looking at the wide 14 variety of specialty channels that have been licensed 15 by the CRTC with various commitments and trying to find 16 a way within a limited funding pool for all kinds of 17 broadcasters, regardless of their audience reach, and 18 trying to find different ways of making that system 19 more equitable and not just for the larger conventional 20 broadcasters. 21 3308 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: It sounds 22 like there just isn't enough money. As I say, I am not 23 going to make their case for them. Maybe they will 24 have something to say in reply. 25 3309 Thank you very much.
1 3310 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 2 3311 Counsel? 3 3312 MR. HOWARD: Thank you. 4 3313 You said in paragraph 26 of the 5 original intervention -- and you don't have to look at 6 it -- that you wish the Commission to require City to 7 go to eight hours of priority programming. 8 3314 Are you still asking for that? 9 3315 MS McDONALD: Yes. 10 3316 MR. HOWARD: Thank you. 11 3317 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 12 3318 Thank you very much, ladies. 13 3319 Mr. Secretary. 14 3320 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 15 3321 The next appearing intervenor will be 16 the teleconference. It is No. 26 on the agenda. We 17 will hear from Ms Loretta Todd. 18 3322 Can you hear me, Ms Todd? 19 --- Pause 20 3323 MR. LEBEL: Are you there, Ms Todd? 21 3324 MS TODD: Yes, I am. 22 3325 MR. LEBEL: You have ten minutes to 23 make your presentation. 24 3326 MS TODD: This is very short. 25 3327 I would first like to thank Chairman
1 Dalfen for the opportunity to speak in this strange way 2 over the phone to you. 3 3328 As an independent aboriginal 4 producer, there are certain expectations I have when 5 dealing with broadcasters. I would even call them 6 values. They include accessibility, professionalism, 7 creative vision and intelligence with respect to 8 programming and audiences. 9 3329 CHUM in Toronto and CKVU in Vancouver 10 encompass all these and more. They are also fun -- 11 3330 THE CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me. I will 12 have to ask you to start again. In order to hear you, 13 we are going to have to use the earphones, I believe, 14 because you are not coming in over the public address 15 system. 16 3331 If you don't mind starting again, 17 that would work better. 18 --- Pause 19 3332 THE CHAIRPERSON: Can our technicians 20 at the back assist in any way? 21 3333 We have lost our intervenor. 22 --- Technical difficulties / Difficultés techniques 23 3334 MR. LEBEL: Mr. Chairman, I 24 understand it is a problem with her phone. So we will 25 hear from somebody else, and we will get back to her
1 after she gets a new phone. 2 3335 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 3 3336 Could you call the next intervenor, 4 please. 5 3337 MR. LEBEL: The next appearing 6 intervenor will be Communications and Diversity 7 Network, Messrs. Rubin Friedman and Lionel Lumb. 8 3338 You have ten minutes to make your 9 presentation. 10 INTERVENTION 11 3339 MR. RASALINGAM: Good evening, 12 Commissioners. My name is Raj Rasalingam. I am the 13 President of the Pearson-Shoyama Institute in Ottawa 14 and a member of the Communications and Diversity 15 Network. 16 3340 The Communications and Diversity 17 Network aims to modernize the portrayal of ethnic and 18 racial minorities and aboriginal peoples in mainstream 19 programming so that the multicultural and multiracial 20 reality of Canada is reflected in Canadian 21 broadcasting. 22 3341 In pursuit of its mission, the CDN 23 shares expertise, resources and models of good practice 24 in an effort to ensure that television responds to the 25 changing demographics and consumer markets in its
1 programming and employment policies. 2 3342 The CDN endorses and commends the 3 Commission's policy and approach with respect to 4 cultural diversity. 5 3343 Under the CKVU benefits package the 6 CDN proposes to commence, with CHUM, the development of 7 a Canada-wide cultural diversity data bank of high 8 quality experts on a broad range of subjects that are 9 covered by the news media on a regular basis. This 10 data bank will focus on ensuring a diversity of 11 ethno-racial backgrounds, a diversity of fields of 12 expertise and a diversity of regions across Canada. 13 3344 The people identified will also be 14 appropriate for a diversity of settings, ranging from 15 participants in regular talk shows to experts in more 16 obscure but important fields. 17 3345 The objects of this project are: 18 3346 (1) to better link the enormous 19 richness of racial and minority and aboriginal 20 expertise with the news media and hence with Canadian 21 society at large; 22 3347 (2) to contribute to efforts by 23 broadcasters to ensure that they better reflect the 24 diversity of the country; and 25 3348 (3) to provide media with an easily
1 accessible tool that will help better reflection of 2 Canadian diversity. 3 3349 On my right is Professor Lionel Lumb, 4 who is also a member of the Communications and 5 Diversity Network and is also a Professor of 6 Communications at Carleton University. 7 3350 MR. LUMB: A professor of journalism. 8 My communications colleagues would be shocked that I 9 had such academic pretensions. 10 3351 Commissioners, thank you for this 11 opportunity to speak here. 12 3352 If I may start in a personal fashion 13 -- and I am encouraged to do that because I heard Moses 14 Znaimer do that this morning -- I came to this country 15 in 1973 from Britain where I had worked for BBC 16 Television News. At the time of my departure, there 17 was not a single woman journalist working in the 18 national newsroom of the BBC. There were just a few 19 women secretaries -- typists really -- and a couple of 20 administrative people. When I left for Canada, that 21 newsroom also lost its only journalist member of a 22 visible minority. 23 3353 In Canada, I came to CBC Television 24 News and I found more women on staff, though none in a 25 senior position. But downtown there was a newsroom
1 which, 29 years ago, would have been extraordinary 2 anywhere in the industry, anywhere in the world, and it 3 is still a leader today in its hiring practices. 4 3354 Citytv might be termed the "godmother 5 of diversity" -- perhaps I should say the "godfather" 6 because of Moses' presence here today. They invented 7 diversity back in 1972. 8 3355 While I was at the CBC it tried to 9 create a more level playing field for women from the 10 late 1970s on but did not discover diversity until the 11 mid-1980s. Then came CTV and Global. Now most 12 television newsrooms across the country have started to 13 change, and the visible success of women and 14 minorities, when given the chance, has encouraged 15 others to follow. 16 3356 I can tell you that this year and 17 last year, but not the years before, seven out of every 18 ten journalism students I teach at Carleton University 19 here in Ottawa these days is a woman, and that in each 20 class of about 25 students one can find about three 21 visible minority students. 22 3357 That is a major increase from 1991 23 when I started at Carleton. 24 3358 There has also been a lot of 25 improvement in who is seen and whose views are heard on
1 television news and current affairs programs. Most 2 organizations have made serious efforts to expand their 3 rolodexes of commentators, experts and other authority 4 figures to include more minorities. 5 3359 You have just heard Raj talk about a 6 new directory that might help that process even more. 7 3360 It could be said that the CRTC, you 8 guys, as a regulatory body, didn't discover the need 9 for diversity until just a couple of years ago. Since 10 then you have tried hard to encourage change, and the 11 recent licence renewals or awards that stipulated 12 increasing diversity as a condition of licence will 13 certainly help this cause, whose time has surely come. 14 3361 In fact, it's long overdue because 15 Canada's population mix has obviously changed far 16 faster than the broadcast industry in general. 17 3362 The CRTC's recent urging of the 18 industry to obtain baseline research data so that the 19 progress of diversity in programs can be measured is a 20 terrific move in the right direction. That pioneer of 21 diversity, Citytv, now expanded into CHUM-TV, has 22 continued to lead the way. I know it was the first 23 broadcast group to set down where it stood on the 24 issue, producing back in November 2000 an important 25 document called "Cultural Diversity Best Practices",
1 which I see is incorporated today in their new 2 "Cultural Diversity Action Plan" -- available only on 3 Friday. So I haven't had a chance to study it yet. 4 3363 That earlier document -- and its 5 principles are all here -- gives CHUM managers 6 directions and support to improve diversity in all 7 aspects of their operations. Annual performance 8 reviews for managers are designed to ensure that the 9 Best Practices are indeed carried out. 10 3364 These efforts, of course, are worthy 11 of high praise and CHUM is to be complimented. 12 3365 What is not absolutely clear is what 13 the anticipated improvements are to be measured again 14 or, indeed, how those measurements might be taken. I 15 suppose some form of internal baseline data is being 16 gathered, otherwise annual reviews of managers might 17 not carry a sufficient degree of significance. 18 3366 Let's take an example. 19 3367 Citytv could probably easily provide 20 figures for the cultural mix of its newsrooms, in both 21 its on-air people and those behind the scenes. That 22 mix of cultures, attitudes and viewpoints makes Citytv 23 news the vibrant operation it has been from the start. 24 3368 Its reporters and crews can tackle 25 difficult stories, go without fear or hindrance
1 anywhere in the metropolitan Toronto area because they 2 are known as a station that is fair to all communities. 3 3369 Dwight Drummond, the deputy 4 assignment editor a few years ago -- and perhaps he 5 still is -- gave us an example at a conference at 6 Carleton back in 1995, where during the "Just Desserts" 7 story, the notorious "Just Desserts" shooting in 8 Toronto, Citytv was one of the few news organizations 9 whose reporters could gain access everywhere because 10 they were so plugged into the community that the 11 community never saw them as being a potential 12 threatening kind of media like a lot of other, 13 especially certain print media, were seen. 14 3370 That is an example of what I mean by 15 being able to go, without fear or hindrance, anywhere 16 in the metropolitan Toronto area. 17 3371 The CHUM group's reach and spirit is 18 very important to the portrayal of diversity in Canada. 19 Back in 1996 I supported Citytv's quest for a licence 20 to be seen here in Ottawa, because I hoped that its 21 approach on diversity might rub off on the competition 22 in Ottawa. Since then, of course, the group has added 23 the NewRO to the capital's slate of stations and given 24 a tremendous boost to the importance of local and 25 community coverage.
1 3372 That kind of competition spurs others 2 to greater efforts, and wherever such a NewRO, VR or VI 3 erupts on the market -- and they usually do that; they 4 usually erupt -- you can be sure it is a wake-up call 5 on diversity, among other things, local news, community 6 news, for other television news operations. 7 3373 But what about at the corporate level 8 in CHUM, in senior management, where major policy 9 decisions are made? Is there the same mix of different 10 viewpoints, the same strong wind of fresh ideas? Is 11 anyone measuring progress there? 12 3374 We heard from Sarah Crawford this 13 morning about the long-serving CHUM managers, and I 14 think that is a good thing. The CBC can't claim to 15 have people who can stay in the job very long. 16 3375 Stuart, that is a private joke. It 17 refers to me as well. 18 3376 Is that smart, I would have to ask? 19 Is it smart that senior management can't change faster? 20 If you can change the front end, the look of stations, 21 you are not really going to achieve anything serious if 22 you don't change the downward flow from senior 23 management. 24 3377 So I think progress should be faster 25 there, and there should be a way of measuring it as
1 well. 2 3378 Or take Citytv's commitment to 100 3 hours of Canadian movies a year. Again, highly 4 deserving of praise. I think that is wonderful. But 5 what is the cultural and story mix of those movies? Is 6 anyone monitoring whether they represent the Canada of 7 today? 8 3379 Or are these movies, like most 9 Canadian drama and entertainment on Canadian television 10 screens, strangely devoid of the cultural mix we see on 11 our streets, in our shopping malls, our schools and our 12 work places, indeed in our news programs? 13 3380 Also important, what kind of roles do 14 minorities play in these movies? Are they leads? Are 15 they secondary leads? Do they just get bit parts? Are 16 they writers and producers? Where do they serve within 17 the ranks? 18 3381 And, of course, how are they 19 portrayed? Is there an even mix of portrayal: good, 20 bad, in between. 21 3382 All of this is definitely not to 22 single out CHUM. I am speaking in broader terms. I 23 hope that is clear. Indeed, CHUM's managers are 24 specifically directed to ensure diversity in 25 programming. With CHUM's track record and pioneering
1 efforts on diversity, it probably has the best change 2 of any TV group to bring Canadian broadcasting in line 3 with changes in Canadian society. 4 3383 The industry as a whole must ask 5 itself if the efforts to monitor production and hiring 6 goals are making a difference, are showing progress; 7 and if so, how much progress, and could and should it 8 be faster? 9 3384 Can these measurements be 10 demonstrated both qualitatively and quantitatively? 11 3385 These are the kinds of questions to 12 which you, the Commissioners, should be getting 13 answers, not just from CHUM during this hearing but 14 from the entire industry. We would urge you never to 15 let up on this until things have really changed. 16 3386 We would also urge you, even with 17 this pioneer of diversity, not to ease up in your 18 efforts to enhance what and who Canadians see on our 19 screens, as well as improve the cultural mix of those 20 who make the decisions. 21 3387 Thank you. 22 3388 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 23 3389 Commissioner Cardozo. 24 3390 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you very 25 much, gentlemen.
1 3391 If you don't mind, I won't ask 2 questions in the interests of time. There are various 3 others who have waited patiently, like you have. 4 3392 I want to make two comments, though. 5 3393 One is that I appreciate, Professor 6 Lumb, your usually clear and pointed comments and also 7 your feedback on how we are approaching cultural 8 diversity throughout the industry. 9 3394 It is a relatively new effort, as you 10 mentioned, and we certainly look forward to all the 11 feedback and guidance people like yourself can give us. 12 So thank you for that. 13 3395 The other comment I want to make is 14 with respect to the action plan that you mention that 15 CHUM has filed. Since that came in late Friday, any 16 intervenors have ten days to get back to us. 17 3396 I certainly look forward to any 18 feedback you might provide to us. 19 3397 Thank you very much. 20 3398 MR. LUMB: I will just throw in one 21 quick comment. I was encouraged that Diane Boehme this 22 morning talked about how strongly the independent 23 producers are urged to respect the Best Practices. 24 3399 I notice there are some figures given 25 in this; that in the range of 74 productions, 13 per
1 cent reflect diversity. But qualitatively, who played 2 what? I will give you a very fast example. 3 3400 The CBC a few months ago had a 4 two-hour special called "Jinnah", which was a crusading 5 south Asian reporter with a lot of south Asian 6 characters. There were heroes; there were villains; 7 there were ordinary players. There were lots of other 8 players who were not visible minorities. It was an 9 interesting fast-paced production. 10 3401 I thought to myself: Wow, I don't 11 think I have ever seen anything like that on Canadian 12 television. 13 3402 Was this a pilot? I wrote to the CBC 14 to ask if this was possibly a pilot, and I haven't had 15 an answer yet. That was a couple of months ago. 16 3403 If something like that could be seen 17 on the screens on a returning basis, even once a week, 18 once every couple of weeks, that would be terrific. 19 3404 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you very 20 much. 21 3405 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 22 gentlemen. 23 3406 Mr. Secretary. 24 3407 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 25 3408 We will now try to go back to Ms
1 Loretta Todd. 2 3409 Ms Todd, can you hear me this time? 3 3410 Ms Todd, are you there? 4 3411 MS TODD: Yes, I am. 5 3412 MR. LEBEL: You have ten minutes to 6 make your presentation. 7 3413 MS TODD: Thank you, again, Chairman 8 Dalfen, and the other esteemed Members of the CRTC, for 9 the opportunity to speak to you today. 10 3414 As an independent aboriginal producer 11 there are certain expectations that I have in dealing 12 with broadcasters. I would even call them values. 13 They include accessibility, professionalism, greater 14 vision and intelligence with respect to programming... 15 --- Technical difficulties / Difficultés techniques 16 3415 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, Ms Todd, 17 we have technical difficulties once again. 18 3416 When we take our break at 8:30, we 19 will have the technicians test again, and hopefully we 20 can get you back in here so that we can hear you. 21 3417 I'm sorry for the inconvenience. 22 3418 Mr. Secretary, please call the next 23 item. 24 3419 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 25 3420 The next appearing intervention will
1 be presented by G'Nadjiwon Ki Aboriginal Tourism 2 Association, Mr. Jack Contin. 3 INTERVENTION 4 3421 MR. CONTIN: First of all, I would 5 like to say "ahneen", which in Ojibwa means hello, and 6 good evening. 7 3422 My name is Jack Contin. I am from 8 the Henvey Inlet First Nations out of Georgian Bay. I 9 am also the Executive Director of G'Nadjiwon Ki 10 Aboriginal Tourism Association. 11 3423 For those who don't know Ojibwa, 12 "g'nadjiwon ki" means beautiful land. It was inspired 13 by the beauty and the nature of where we live on 14 Georgian Bay, the 30,000 islands in the Great Lakes and 15 St. Lawrence lowlands, and the relationship that the 16 First Nations have had for many years, from the past to 17 the present, and for their future. 18 3424 This is what I want to talk about, 19 about our organization and particularly the strong 20 relationship we have had with The NewVR. 21 3425 We are here to support the 22 application to renew their licence. For me it is a 23 real honour, Mr. Chairman and Members of the 24 Commission, to be here this evening to give you at 25 least a taste of aboriginal tourism for our area. It
1 is relatively new. 2 3426 We had the opportunity to have met 3 with The NewVR this year and have produced a series of 4 vignettes to promote our culture in various ways. I 5 think this is the type of relationship that we feel is 6 a strong commitment, a direction that we see as a 7 strong relationship to promote aboriginal tourism in 8 Ontario. 9 3427 First of all, let me explain when I 10 talked about aboriginal tourism and how relatively new 11 it is. It is relatively new. Many people believe that 12 it has been around for a long time. It has been, but 13 from our perspective from where we live, we represent 14 seven First Nations. We also represent the Métis 15 people, Status and non-Status indians. 16 3428 The seven First Nations that live in 17 our catchment area, which is also the catchment area 18 pretty well for VRLand, the CKVR viewing area, the 19 opportunity to profile and showcase aboriginal culture 20 -- and this is what the power of the vignettes have. 21 3429 I want to explain basically also that 22 we have to be careful in terms of putting the cart 23 before the horse in promoting aboriginal tourism. I 24 think this is the role of G'Nadjiwon Ki. 25 3430 Our role as an organization is to
1 build the aboriginal tourism industry. We have done 2 numerous research in terms of knowing what the products 3 are. In Ontario we believe that there are over 600 4 products, but they vary in sizes from small to medium. 5 In our catchment area we have over 50 businesses that 6 are focused on tourism. 7 3431 What we found in our studies in 8 research is that the products are market ready, but 9 they are not export ready yet. 10 3432 When we created the vignettes with 11 The NewVR, I would like say a heartfelt thank you for 12 the creativity department that assisted us in the 13 development of these PSAs or vignettes. It really was 14 profiling and promoting aboriginal culture. 15 3433 Our responsibility as an organization 16 is to ensure to the global market that we are building 17 market ready products. We are in the business to look 18 at training and education. We also do consulting work 19 to assist aboriginal businesses and entrepreneurs, and 20 particularly the youth, to take the opportunity to look 21 at a career in aboriginal tourism. 22 3434 When we did work with The NewVR, we 23 were honoured to actually create vignettes that were 24 market ready, and we have received numerous compliments 25 about these vignettes. It really shows the commitment
1 with this particular television station that they have 2 with the community. 3 3435 It is a diverse culture that we live 4 in with aboriginal people, but it is also looking at 5 the geographical location, the diversity of tourism. 6 The catchment area for the viewing of The NewVR focuses 7 a lot on tourism destination. 8 3436 The aboriginal people have a huge 9 role to play in terms of benefiting from the aboriginal 10 tourism industry. As our role, we are a promoter. We 11 also are an organization that presents products that 12 will be market ready. 13 3437 When we created the vignettes, there 14 was a main purpose behind this. As I mentioned 15 earlier, we wanted to target the aboriginal business in 16 First Nations to be able to be part of the industry, to 17 benefit from the economic development opportunities and 18 the partnerships. 19 3438 The other part was to look at revenue 20 generation through the aboriginal tourism products that 21 are readily available and basically from that look at 22 creating partnerships with other partners of 23 mainstream. 24 3439 I should say, also, that our 25 membership comprised of aboriginally owned businesses,
1 but we also have a membership from the associated 2 members that are not aboriginally owned. They are 3 provincial attraction sites, federal attraction sites, 4 like national parks, but they all have aboriginal 5 components. 6 3440 I mentioned the aspect that youth is 7 a very important aspect with our development, and we 8 have produced some vignettes also focusing on youth, on 9 aboriginal interpretation, archaeology. We feel that 10 this is the strength that we have in the power of our 11 massaging through the use of these vignettes. 12 3441 I believe that the future for 13 aboriginal people is to look at the opportunity for 14 partnerships, as I mentioned. We are looking at 15 employment for aboriginal people during the shoulder 16 seasons, making it a four-season destination. 17 3442 We think in our area that aboriginal 18 tourism and the tourism industry focuses on just six 19 months, from May to October. But we found because of 20 the vignettes we created some great opportunities with 21 Resorts Ontario. We have completed a list of inventory 22 of aboriginal artisans, artists, performers, and we 23 have worked out an opportunity to showcase these at 24 Resorts Ontario. 25 3443 This summer we are working with one
1 of the museums in our area that will profile and 2 showcase aboriginal culture for the World Catholic 3 Youth visit this summer. 4 3444 It all stems basically with the 5 relationship that we have with the power of massaging 6 through these vignettes. 7 3445 I sincerely believe that our 8 relationship will continue with The NewVR for the 9 future. We will look at developing new opportunities 10 for packages and partnering and creating economic 11 opportunities. We also want to focus our efforts to 12 building a stronger partnership with mainstream tourism 13 so that we can all participate and contribute to the 14 economic opportunities. 15 3446 In conclusion, I want to convey in my 16 letter to the Secretary-General that with leading 17 examples like The NewVR and their commitment to the 18 community, reaching out to meet the needs, particularly 19 for the aboriginal community, it is greatly 20 appreciated. 21 3447 In the long term we feel that it will 22 be a benefit for both in terms of the relationship for 23 the future. I would like to say "miigwetch". Thank 24 you for allowing me to at least say how grateful we are 25 to The New VR and their role as a leader for the
1 community in information needs. And I am not just 2 talking for aboriginal people but all communities in 3 our area. 4 3448 Thank you. 5 3449 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 6 much. 7 3450 Commissioner Langford. 8 3451 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you for 9 that. 10 3452 I wonder if I could ask some specific 11 factual questions so I will understand a little more 12 your experience. 13 3453 You speak of these vignettes. How 14 many were there? 15 3454 MR. CONTIN: We had an 18-month 16 relationship, and we produced five in the first six or 17 seven months. In total there are ten that have been 18 created. 19 3455 They vary from aspects of aboriginal 20 history in our area, aboriginal youth and aboriginal 21 interpretation. Some are also focused on some of the 22 culture of storytellers and artisans and artists. 23 3456 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: How long do 24 they run? 25 3457 MR. CONTIN: The first PSA or
1 vignette we produced was 30 seconds, and the remaining 2 nine are 60 seconds. 3 3458 There are plans to produce more for 4 this year. Our aspiration for this year is to look at 5 developing a more thorough type of presentation with 6 our partners. 7 3459 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So they are 8 more educational than commercial. They are not focused 9 on one of your market-ready products or on one of your 10 lodges or one of your tourist opportunities. 11 3460 They are more informative generally. 12 3461 MR. CONTIN: They are focused a lot 13 on education and awareness of aboriginal tourism and 14 the gifts that we can provide. It is an understanding 15 -- I think I mentioned earlier that the understanding 16 is that aboriginal tourism is very small. 17 3462 What we are trying to create is to 18 look at creating awareness with our own people with the 19 opportunities and services that we can provide to build 20 that industry. 21 3463 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Are there 22 other aboriginal associations around Canada, tourism 23 associations like yours? 24 3464 MR. CONTIN: Yes, there are. I will 25 explain basically how we are organized on a national to
1 a regional to a local level. 2 3465 We are considered to be a local 3 organization. We are more of a service provider that 4 bills the aboriginal tourism industry by providing 5 services. There are Regional Tourism Associations. 6 There are two in Ontario, called the Northern Ontario 7 Native Tourism Association, as well as the Aboriginal 8 Tourism of Southern Ontario. 9 3466 We sit on these boards, but they sit 10 at the national table, which is the Aboriginal Tourism 11 Team Canada Tourism Forum. They represent the national 12 level for each province. 13 3467 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Do you know 14 whether any of your colleagues are having the same kind 15 of success with other commercial television networks 16 that you are having with CHUM? 17 3468 MR. CONTIN: Our understanding is 18 that we are probably one of the first organizations to 19 have built a relationship by producing this type of 20 awareness. 21 3469 There have been larger campaigns, and 22 mostly the regional tourism association attracts the 23 travel/trade industry by going to travel and trade 24 shows in Germany. So it is a different type of market 25 awareness.
1 3470 As for Aboriginal Tourism Team 2 Canada, they focus on the travel and trade industry, 3 but also last year we were part of a larger awareness 4 campaign to look at a partnership with Air Canada with 5 an aboriginal drawing on one of their planes. 6 3471 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you 7 very much. 8 3472 MR. CONTIN: Miigwetch. 9 3473 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 10 3474 Mr. Secretary. 11 3475 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 12 3476 I would like to point out that 13 intervenors Nos. 13, 14, 15, 17 and 20 will not appear 14 at the public hearing. They will remain on the public 15 record as non-appearing interventions. 16 3477 I also understand that a couple of 17 appearing intervenors do have time constraints. So we 18 will now hear from intervention No. 19 on the agenda, 19 from Ayal Lesh on behalf of Earth Day Canada. 20 --- Pause 21 3478 MR. LEBEL: Not seeing her, 22 Mr. Chairman, we will now hear from intervention No. 23 10, from Mr. Skidmore of the London Public Library. 24 3479 Mr. Skidmore, you have ten minutes to 25 make your presentation. Thank you.
1 INTERVENTION 2 3480 MR. SKIDMORE: Thank you. 3 3481 Mr. Chair and Commissioners, I very 4 much appreciate the opportunity this evening of coming 5 and sharing some observations with you. 6 3482 Having sat through the entire 7 proceedings today, I am going to deviate somewhat from 8 what I initially was going to share with you. I think 9 much of it is captured in my written submission, and I 10 will hit the key highlights that I would have liked to. 11 3483 In my few minutes I am going to 12 comment both in terms of an opportunity to celebrate, 13 an opportunity I hope to share some context, some 14 opportunity to, I hope, leave you with a request in 15 terms of those things I have observed today. 16 3484 I come to you this evening not simply 17 as the CEO of the London Public Library; I come to you 18 as someone who is, I believe, involved in and committed 19 to my community, whether it is in Big Brothers, the 20 Chamber of Commerce, the United Way, whatever. 21 3485 I say that not from an egocentric 22 point of view but as someone who is committed to London 23 and sharing some observations with you in that context. 24 3486 The first element related to 25 celebration is that Commissioner Langford, I want to
1 emphasize to you that I was encouraged by your 2 inquiries tonight related to our new Media Literacy 3 Centre. I was encouraged by the responses that you 4 heard. 5 3487 I simply want to reinforce with you 6 the fact that you can count on the fact that it is 7 going to move forward in an aggressive way. It is 8 going to move forward in a manner that I think is 9 unique, not from an egocentric point of view for 10 London, Ontario, but for our province, for our country 11 and, frankly, for North America. 12 3488 I believe it is unique. I believe it 13 is something that in developing it we are not only 14 going to provide students, parents, grandparents, 15 teachers, researchers, educators with something of a 16 local nature in southwestern Ontario, but by virtue of 17 what we will be able to establish of a virtual reality 18 through the Web site, everybody will be able to benefit 19 from that. 20 3489 The benefits will be a better 21 understanding of what media literacy is from an 22 education point of view and to be able to be more 23 discerning as a member of the public. 24 3490 I want you to know that we are not 25 stopping with our partnership with CHUM. We have now,
1 because of the interest that has been shown across the 2 country, other corporate sponsors who are interested in 3 becoming involved, as well as some people from the 4 public sector. That, I think, is very encouraging. 5 3491 So it would be my view that the next 6 time CHUM comes to you, they will be able to come in 7 celebration and to others from the London Public 8 Library to say that this has moved forward in a fashion 9 of which we can all be proud. 10 3492 The second is to provide a little bit 11 of context in relation to my comments this evening. 12 3493 I did not grow up in London, Ontario. 13 I grew up in metropolitan Toronto and spent most of my 14 life in metropolitan Toronto. I have been a Londoner 15 for eight or nine years. Until you have been in London 16 35 to 40 years, you are not a Londoner. So as a result 17 of that, I share somewhat as an observer, not as a 18 citizen in the same way. 19 3494 I can remember when CHUM for me meant 20 the Top 50 on the billboard. Given that this is on the 21 public record, it is somewhat of a chagrin to admit 22 that in a public setting. But that is what it did mean 23 to me. 24 3495 As someone who grew up in Toronto, I 25 have watched Citytv grow.
1 3496 As a former Director of Education for 2 metropolitan Toronto, I know that when there were 3 critical education issues before the public, it did not 4 come to the attention largely of the other media. But 5 Citytv was there to cover it. It was there to bring 6 those issues to the public. 7 3497 I would submit to you that in that 8 same fashion that is now replicated in the city of 9 London. 10 3498 As a former Director of Education in 11 London, I can say to you that CFPL makes a concerted 12 effort, and has continued to make a concerted effort, 13 to make sure that the educational issues are brought 14 before the public. That is something that is 15 significant. 16 3499 I would also say to you tonight that 17 we, as an organization -- and I am not certainly 18 trained as a librarian in any sense. I came to this 19 role from my previous role as a consultant, and I was 20 asked to become involved for a period of time. 21 3500 As we have tried to reinvent what 22 libraries are all about, I can say to you without 23 hesitation tonight that The NewPL has been a 24 significant part of that. 25 3501 The outgrowth of that was in fact
1 this new Media Literacy Centre. 2 3502 Mr. Chair, it did not begin with 3 that, however. It began with the context of us 4 needing, as we reinvented ourselves, to raise money. 5 $26 million plus was our allocation from the city of 6 London, but to create an exemplary library, not just a 7 good library, we needed to raise the standard and raise 8 the bar. 9 3503 I am pleased to say to you tonight, 10 and hopefully not from a boastful or egotistical 11 perspective, in less than two years we have raised 12 $4 million in the community that is going to allow us 13 to have an exemplary facility. 14 3504 In so doing, it led us to the 15 opportunity to have some dialogue -- a dialogue that 16 started locally. It started with Kate Young and Don 17 Mumford, and it expanded to take on more of a national 18 perspective. 19 3505 Tonight, in celebrating what we have 20 done this far -- but I speak in a sense of great 21 anticipation -- is the fact that we had something that 22 was grown and initiated locally, but the merits of it 23 were seen by CHUM nationally, and we moved forward in a 24 broader context that I think is going to benefit all 25 Canadians.
1 3506 Today I have listened much to the 2 discussion about hours, financial implications and cuts 3 that could potentially impact on television stations 4 and indeed, more importantly, on people's lives. 5 3507 I have listened to the word "local" a 6 number of occasions. Again, Commissioner Langford, I 7 have heard you mention a number of times that the word 8 "local" has been raised verbally, as well as in written 9 form. 10 3508 Today I did not hear anybody at any 11 point define the term "local", and I do not want to be 12 presumptuous to suggest that it is no somewhere defined 13 in your mandate. But today I did not hear the word 14 "local" defined in any sense. 15 3509 I will define for you what I think 16 "local" means. 17 3510 In southwester Ontario, in London for 18 The NewPL, it means not only just London as a city; it 19 means London in the neighbourhoods. It means Lucan. 20 It means Woodstock. It means those surrounding towns. 21 3511 And there is a real emphasis that I 22 can say without hesitation that is placed to provide 23 that kind of balance so that it doesn't become simply 24 egocentric related to the city of London itself. 25 3512 I share with you one very small
1 example of the importance of the kind of coverage that 2 The NewPL provides. 3 3513 On Sunday night it was my privilege 4 to attend a fundraiser for Living Community London, 5 which is for developmentally challenged young people 6 and adults. As we pulled into the parking lot, two 7 other people being Pauline's guest and mine, made 8 reference that they saw the green truck there of The 9 NewPL. And their first comment was: Isn't nice to see 10 that The NewPL is out here covering it. 11 3514 I know for a fact that people went 12 home that night to see what kind of coverage they had 13 obtained. 14 3515 I say to you without hesitation that 15 we would not have been able to raise $4 million in the 16 city of London had we not had the exposure to what we 17 are attempting to do with our new Reading Garden, which 18 will be unique again to North America. We would not 19 have been able to get the corporate sponsorships that 20 we have or interest philanthropists in the fashion we 21 have without strong media coverage. 22 3516 So I say to you, from my perspective, 23 the local definition of southwestern Ontario is not 24 only communities; it is neighbourhoods. That is what 25 people have come to expect.
1 3517 As part of my comments related to 2 context, I will simply say to you that I can assure you 3 that I have seen a dramatic difference between the 4 previous ownership and this one. I say that in the 5 context of the previous ownership was such that there 6 was very little difference between flicking the 7 channels and seeing what was national and international 8 coverage. 9 3518 At times there have been some of us 10 who have even been critical of The NewPL, that it had 11 such a local emphasis at times in the first 15 to 20 12 minutes of its broadcasting, but that is what people 13 look for. That is what the high school athlete looks 14 for, to see if his or her event is going to be covered. 15 3519 I indicated to you that I was also 16 bringing a request to you. 17 3520 In working as a consultant, the one 18 thing I learned in both the public and private sector 19 is that for organizations to be successful in this new 20 knowledge society, they had to find ways of being 21 sufficiently flexible to reinvent themselves. 22 3521 Today, as I listened to hours, 23 financial implications and cuts, as I listened to the 24 discussions around what the financial implications of 25 all of that could be -- and I fully understood, I
1 think, both sides of that coin -- I would say to you as 2 my request that as a citizen of London, as a CEO of an 3 organization that is trying to reinvent itself, I would 4 ask that in the wisdom of Solomon that you find some 5 way of finding the flexibility for local stations such 6 as The NewPL or CHUM nationally to be able to reinvent 7 itself. 8 3522 If that is not there, then there 9 won't be the opportunity to create the media literacy 10 centres, and there won't be the opportunity for us to 11 move forward those critical local items on our agenda. 12 3523 In conclusion, let me respectfully 13 submit to you that tonight I am not here and did not 14 cancel plane reservations -- and I do not say that to 15 impress you. I say that because I wanted to make sure 16 that I shared my observations with you. 17 3524 I am not here tonight because I am a 18 fan of CHUM. I am not here tonight to be their 19 advocate. I am certainly not here in the spirit of 20 salesmanship. 21 3525 What I am here to say is that six to 22 eight months ago Mr. Switzer, Mr. Waters, Mr. Znaimer, 23 Ms Crawford, Mr. Sherratt -- those were just names to 24 me. But I say to you tonight that after very difficult 25 and tough negotiations as to what a new partnership
1 would be in a public enterprise and a private 2 enterprise, I am here tonight as a respected partner of 3 theirs. I am not here as someone who they have 4 sponsored something in our organization. 5 3526 From my perspective, the integrity 6 that I have seen them present in the spirit of those 7 discussions, those negotiations and the agreements that 8 we have arrived at are ones that I think are honourable 9 and ones that I respectfully tonight am proud to say 10 that London Public Library is a partner with CHUM. 11 They are a partner with The NewPL. That is the spirit 12 in which I come to you tonight. 13 3527 I thank you for the opportunity of 14 sharing my observations with you. I have felt a little 15 lonely sitting here, after watching Mr. Switzer with 16 1900 people surrounding him today. So if I am not 17 feeling lonely, I am at least feeling exposed in the 18 process. 19 3528 I don't envy you your job, but I 20 repeat my request to you. Please find in your wisdom 21 some way of making sure that you provide that network 22 and those local stations with the flexibility to do the 23 kinds of things I have heard are important to other 24 communities, but I assure you are important to London 25 and southwestern Ontario.
1 3529 Thank you very much. 2 3530 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 3 3531 Commissioner Grauer. 4 3532 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you very 5 much. That was a very full presentation. I don't have 6 any questions or clarification. 7 3533 I thank you very much. I know you 8 have come a long way, and you have been waiting all 9 day. We really appreciate that you have taken the time 10 to come and share your views with us. Thank you. 11 3534 MR. SKIDMORE: My pleasure. Thank 12 you very much. 13 3535 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary. 14 3536 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 15 3537 We will now hear interventions 6 and 16 7 on the agenda as a panel. So we will hear from Pooja 17 Narang and Timothy Kingston. 18 3538 You have ten minutes to make your 19 presentation. Go ahead when you are ready. 20 INTERVENTION 21 3539 MS NARANG: Hello. My name is Pooja 22 Narang, and I am a journalism student at Centennial 23 College in East York, Toronto. 24 3540 I am a resident of Barrie but 25 attended school away from home, because our community
1 college didn't have a journalism program. 2 3541 My family has been resident of VRLand 3 for 20 years, and we own a family restaurant on Essa 4 Road in Barrie, which has operated for 15 years. The 5 NewVR, located on Beacon Road, intersects with Essa 6 Road, which is around the corner from my restaurant. 7 3542 The NewVR has meant many things to me 8 at all stages of my life thus far. As a child, the 9 site of the blinking CKVR tower was a landmark, meaning 10 that I was almost home from what seemed like a long 11 journey from Toronto. 12 3543 As a teenager, every day I drove by 13 The NewVR and hoped to one day work there. 14 3544 As an adult, I now have the 15 opportunity to fulfil that dream when The NewVR has 16 provided me with a job internship in my own community. 17 3545 In my final semester of school is our 18 co-op program. I contacted The NewVR in hopes that I 19 would be able to join their team for the four months of 20 my internship. I was pleased that I could move home 21 and get from The NewVR what my community college 22 couldn't provide for me, and that was the hands on 23 experience in the field of my choice. 24 3546 Being a student and a new face to the 25 station, I was worried about how I would fit into the
1 team. But after only a few minutes of being welcomed 2 by the newsroom staff, I felt that I had known everyone 3 a long time. Some faces were familiar to me, as my 4 face was familiar to some of those who were regular 5 customers at my restaurant. 6 3547 My career interest is in reporting, 7 and I had the opportunity to go out with reporters 8 regularly to observe them. Every day The NewVR has a 9 nightly news critique, and I find that very 10 educational, not only for me but for the reporters who 11 are there. 12 3548 I have gained so much knowledge 13 working in the newsroom, which I know is crucial to my 14 experience as a reporter. 15 3549 As I mentioned in my letter of 16 support and permission to appear here today, The NewVr 17 has public tours regularly. School-aged kids, as well 18 as adults, are seen on a regular basis being guided 19 through the newsroom. Just recently there were four 20 co-op students at one time in the newsroom. 21 3550 I think this symbolizes very well how 22 involved The NewVR is in the community and how it 23 provides opportunity for students like myself. 24 3551 During my time at the station, I was 25 shocked at the public's reaction towards The NewVR. I
1 found people got very excited at the sight of the 2 yellow VR trucks, always honking their horns in support 3 of the station. 4 3552 I would like to share with you one 5 experience I had, because on this particular day I 6 realized how important The NewVR was to Barrie and its 7 surrounding communities. 8 3553 One photographer and I went out to 9 shoot a story, and he needed shots of cars on the 10 highway. So he took an exit that had an overpass on 11 the bridge, and we parked the car. I stood on the 12 bridge and watched all the cars go by, and they were 13 all honking their horns and waving. As much as I would 14 like to think that they were waving at me, I realized 15 the real celebrity there was the yellow VI truck that 16 they recognized. 17 3554 People's expressions were so full of 18 joy. You could see it through the windshield how 19 excited they were that they thought they were going to 20 be on the 6 o'clock news. 21 3555 It was amazing to see how happy the 22 station was making people. It is something that I can 23 say I am very proud to be a part of; something that 24 brings smiles to the people of VRLand. 25 3556 I have also experienced a few
1 breaking news events in the newsroom, and I realize how 2 remarkable it is how these people come together, how 3 passionate they are to provide the community with what 4 the community needs to know, whether it is about an 5 outbreak of influenza in our community and what it is 6 doing to the senior citizens, or one reporter couldn't 7 get into one of the senior homes and did the interview 8 through a window. 9 3557 That was to symbolize and to show the 10 community that it was sad; you couldn't talk to the 11 lady and she wanted to be able to give her opinion. 12 But he persisted. He didn't stop at just getting into 13 the senior citizen home. He went and symbolized what 14 he wanted to achieve anyways. 15 3558 Everyone there is involved, and they 16 also allowed me to have the opportunity to assist in 17 their team work and be a part of the satisfaction that 18 is felt when the news is delivered to the public 19 factually and timely. 20 3559 The NewVR is essential for its 21 communities, the people and the children, but most 22 important it has given me hope and the opportunity to 23 come to my home to continue my education. 24 3560 Thank you. 25 3561 MR. KINGSTON: Hello. My name is
1 Timothy Kingston. I work and run an organization 2 called YO Media, which is a youth organized media group 3 that uses the arts to educate young people in the 4 Township of Georgina, Ontario -- the town specifically 5 being Sutton West. 6 3562 I am going to try and paint a picture 7 of what it is like in Sutton and how The NewVR has been 8 interacting with my Youth Organized Media group. 9 3563 We have a situation in Georgina that 10 is probably not unlike many other communities in 11 southern Ontario. I noticed today that there was a lot 12 of discussion about growth, growth in the media and 13 growth of communities and how that growth was 14 paralleled with new people that were coming to Canada. 15 3564 Sutton is a very under-developed 16 community. It is probably one of the richest and 17 poorest communities at the same time in Ontario. It 18 has been strangely ignored by the sprawl that has grown 19 out of Toronto. 20 3565 One of the things that my 21 organization has been doing is taking a look at 22 environmental issues in my community and trying to 23 figure out how we as a small community -- that will 24 surely grow, because our community holds the largest 25 stake in Lake Simcoe and has the largest amount of
1 shorefront of a municipality on Lake Simcoe. How our 2 community can actively participate in the changes that 3 are surely to come. 4 3566 It is a very difficult thing when you 5 have a very uneducated and poor community. They have 6 paid their taxes. They have lived there as long as 7 everybody else, but the change comes very quickly. 8 Sometimes it only takes four years, and everything is 9 very different. 10 3567 I and a number of people in this 11 community have decided to take on this challenge of 12 trying to educate our community. So we look to the 13 media to do so. 14 3568 We would start with our print 15 journalism. We happen to be in a situation where our 16 local newspaper is now a part of the Metroland Media 17 Group. There are pros and cons to this. There are a 18 number of cons. 19 3569 As well, our local community 20 broadcaster has been bought by Rogers, and there are 21 pros and cons to this. 22 3570 It is obvious that Sutton and our 23 community isn't really particularly a large economic 24 player in the greater perspective of York Region. In 25 York Region there is Richmond Hill, Markham and
1 Newmarket, which are major sprawl players. 2 3571 We had to take a look at how we could 3 start to lobby, how we could use our news sources in 4 our community. I realized that there really wasn't any 5 television station in our area. That was sort of 6 weird. We tried to lobby the media as much as we 7 could, our newspapers and our local radio stations and 8 Rogers, but we really didn't get much response. 9 3572 We found this troubling because the 10 environment happens to be a very important issue, and 11 the growth and diversity that is going to come to our 12 community is something that I think all new Canadians 13 need to understand. It is really important that the 14 people who come to Canada as Canadian citizens are 15 given the right to be educated properly about their 16 natural environment, because they are becoming 17 responsible for this natural environment. 18 3573 The particular issue that led me to 19 interact with The NewVR specifically was probably 20 actually out of a form of criticism. We were quite 21 angry at the fact that there were a number of serious 22 environmental issues in our community that were just 23 being totally ignored, and we were pretty much being 24 laughed at. 25 3574 One of them was a smelter, an old
1 aluminum smelter that had been in our community for 27 2 years. It is sitting on a wonderful wetland with a 3 large heronry and all sorts of wonderful things. Large 4 amounts of toxic sludge are sort of sitting there, and 5 no one is responsible. The municipality is not 6 responsible. The province is not responsible. No one 7 is responsible. 8 3575 One day I decided that I would take a 9 stab at The NewVR and see what response I would get 10 from them. I must admit when the phone rang I wasn't 11 all that prepared. There were a number of community 12 people that had been a part of the process, and The 13 NewVR came down and covered the story and continued to 14 cover the story. 15 3576 In fact, they did perhaps 11 to 13 16 different stories on the smelter, and the effect on a 17 small community that was powerless was incredible. The 18 housewife who is leading the "Maskinonge River Get Rid 19 of the Smelter Group" has met with Elizabeth Whitmore, 20 has been on the CBC. 21 3577 The NewVR's participation was a 22 catalyst. It was an incredible confidence builder. 23 3578 I am not really sure whether there is 24 any other news source in the community that is local 25 that could have done that.
1 3579 We share a common responsibility with 2 Barrie; that is, Lake Simcoe. They are on the northern 3 part of the lake, and we are at the southern part of 4 the lake. 5 3580 This smelter's toxins were flowing 6 into our rivers, which were flowing into our lakes, 7 which were flowing into Barrie's drinking water. 8 Suddenly there was a reason for Sutton to be a part of 9 the bigger picture, and that was really important to a 10 lot of people in our community. 11 3581 It was really great to have that sort 12 of support and to see the actual in-depth investigative 13 journalism, which seems to be very rare. It is taught 14 in school, and it is the reason that so many young 15 people involved in journalism but just doesn't seem to 16 be there once you get involved in journalism 17 professionally. 18 3582 I am here to support The NewVr in 19 their licence renewal. 20 3583 I will make one comment about the 21 growth that is affecting small communities and the 22 media's role in it. 23 3584 You have spoken at great length today 24 about the responsibility of the media to portray 25 diversity with its people and the different cultures in
1 Canada. I would also encourage you to encourage the 2 media to portray a landscape diversity that should also 3 be portrayed. 4 3585 I don't know if you have ever done 5 it, but I drove across the country last year and I came 6 to the same street in every town that had the same 7 strip mall stores, the same restaurants. Sault Ste. 8 Marie looked like Newmarket; Calgary looked like 9 Mississauga. 10 3586 I think if CHUM and The NewVR are 11 truly to be working towards portraying a diverse 12 society, they definitely made the first step in coming 13 to our community and allowing us to portray some of our 14 diverse environmental features. 15 3587 Thank you. 16 3588 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 17 3589 Commissioner Langford. 18 3590 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I have a 19 question for you, Ms Narang. You must have heard 20 Lionel Lumb, who is a Carleton University Professor of 21 Journalism, speak about the changing make-up of his 22 classrooms. 23 3591 Can you tell us a little bit about 24 the make-up of the classrooms that you have been in for 25 the last little while?
1 3592 MS NARANG: While he was making that 2 comment, I was sitting there shaking my head, because 3 his stats were very similar to the ones in my college. 4 3593 I think there were four visible 5 minorities; he said three, I think. And it was the 6 same class, about 25 people. 7 3594 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And the 8 breakdown between men and women? 9 3595 MS NARANG: I think there were a few 10 more men; but other than that, it was pretty equal. 11 3596 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thanks very 12 much. Those are my questions. 13 3597 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much 14 for taking the time to be here and sharing your views 15 with us. 16 3598 Mr. Secretary. 17 3599 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 18 3600 The next intervention will be 19 presented by Janice Laking. 20 3601 You have ten minutes to make your 21 presentation. 22 INTERVENTION 23 3602 MS LAKING: First, I want to say 24 thank you very much. I am very privileged to be here 25 and to be able to see in person the action of my board.
1 Thank you. 2 3603 It has been a long day for you. It 3 has been a long day for us. It has been a much longer 4 two days for you, and I appreciate that you are still 5 here. 6 3604 My name is Janice. I am here 7 supporting VR. I look both forward and back. I am not 8 a god, though. 9 3605 I want to say that when you come to 10 Barrie -- and I hope that you will -- the best coffee 11 in Barrie -- we don't have to have Starbucks, although 12 I think we have. The very best coffee is served by the 13 restaurant owned by the wonderful young gal that you 14 just listened to. 15 3606 Aren't you proud of our young people. 16 We will have coffee at her family restaurant. 17 3607 I was first elected to Barrie City 18 Council in 1972. My friendship in the television 19 industry goes back to a personal friendship with Val 20 and Ralph Snelgrove, the VR. So that gives me special 21 privilege being here tonight. 22 3608 I was the Mayor from 1988 until 2000, 23 12 years in a community that for many of those years 24 was the fastest growing community in the country. I 25 liked to think it was because of the great Mayor, but
1 the truth was that it is location, location. 2 3609 It is in the Toronto market, as we 3 have heard tonight, and because it has that proximity 4 to a very large Toronto population, it has been 5 particularly important that we have an identity of our 6 own, an identity and a quality of life that has been 7 enhanced for us over the years by CKVR. 8 3610 They have shown people that live in 9 the south end of Barrie, some of the new commuters, 10 that we actually live on a bay. They certainly have 11 shown the people in Toronto. 12 3611 As our community has grown so 13 rapidly, it has been extra important for us to have the 14 owners, the executives of business realize the 15 opportunities that have been afforded to them in Barrie 16 in the quality of life and the place that they can live 17 and work and play. 18 3612 VR has been so important in 19 portraying that quality of life, that community. 20 3613 I agree with Mr. Skidmore in his 21 definition of local, because indeed it is not Barrie; 22 it is the Barrie area, the community, the five counties 23 surrounding Simcoe County that are all helped by VR. 24 3614 I want to tell you very quickly about 25 two special interactions I have had with them.
1 3615 One was when I was privileged to be 2 on their election coverage last year. It was so 3 exciting to be in that newsroom and have the feeds 4 coming in from five, ten different locations around the 5 county with their trucks and their people throughout 6 that county sending the news back to the newsroom. 7 3616 That is important for a community. 8 That is the kind of coverage that no television station 9 in Toronto was able to provide. We had it in Simcoe, 10 in Dufferin, in Peel, in Muskoka thanks to VR. 11 3617 The other little story I want to tell 12 you is that many years ago, probably five now, Moses 13 and my friend Doug -- I almost forgot your name, Doug; 14 it is the hour of the night. Moses and Doug and I sat 15 in my office and looked out at a courtyard outside city 16 hall that was fairly empty at that point and visualized 17 an artificial ice rink that we were raising money to 18 try and put into the courtyard and extended that 19 thinking to a New Year's Eve celebration that we wanted 20 to have. 21 3618 So we planned it two or three years 22 before it happened. 23 3619 It has now happened for three years. 24 Other people may call it First Night. One of the 25 staffers of VR nicknamed it "That Thing at City Hall"
1 because we didn't have any other name for it, and it 2 has been "That Thing at City Hall" ever since. 3 3620 It has been free entertainment for 4 thousands of people in the street, thousands more at 5 home who have been able to watch not only the things 6 that were happening at Barrie City Hall but the things 7 that were happening in Collingwood, in Midland, at 8 Horseshoe Valley, in the Muskoka area, in the Newmarket 9 area. All those things have been brought to us by our 10 community television, which we love, and which I hope 11 you are going to help support in a way to continue the 12 kind of support that they have been giving to my 13 community over these many years. 14 3621 As well as the industries we have 15 brought to town, we have some very special tourist and 16 tourist attractions. The main spark of the tourist 17 attraction is my friend with tonight, William Moore. 18 3622 MR. MOORE: I have to say, first of 19 all, I am a great fan of my friend Janice, the mayor of 20 all mayors. It is important to understand that when 21 Barrie went through a period of growth, huge growth and 22 responsible growth, Janice Laking was the mayor, and I 23 had the privilege to work with her. I also had the 24 privilege to work with The NewVR and the CHUM group. 25 We are lucky in Barrie, because we are blessed with
1 some pretty wonderful people. 2 3623 We have changed. We have 3 diversified. We have heard so much today about 4 diversity, and I think it is important that we all pay 5 attention to the nature of diversity. I think there is 6 another sense of diversity that hasn't been touched on 7 here, and that is the diversity of communication. 8 3624 I am the CEO, but they call me a 9 director of a public art museum, the McLaren Art Centre 10 in Barrie. The NewVR is a media partner of the McLaren 11 Art Centre; that is, we are one of the very lucky 12 groups of many groups that VR supports in many ways. 13 3625 In our case we have had a 14 relationship for about nine years. I am going to take 15 the McLaren Art Centre back nine years for you. 16 3626 Nine years ago we had a budget of 17 about $250,000 a year. We had a collection of one 18 piece. We saw about 6,000 people through our gallery, 19 which was a beautiful old house on a hill. We had a 20 capital budget of zero also. 21 3627 In 2002 we have an operating budget 22 of $3 million. We have a capital budget of $10 23 million. We have a collection worth $50 million. We 24 have grown. 25 3628 We have grown in a community of
1 100,000. We have grown in a community that is 2 supported in many ways educationally. The McLaren is 3 one of the most involved educators within that 4 community. 5 3629 We do outreach to 45,000 kids a year 6 in the classrooms of Simcoe County -- by the way, the 7 largest county in Ontario. We take shows around the 8 province. We deliver shows around the country. We 9 deliver specialized arts education to communities with 10 special needs, to youth at risk. 11 3630 We do exhibitions. Those exhibitions 12 respond to the nature of communication. 13 3631 Our great partner in all of that is 14 VR. VR have done for us something that I don't think 15 we could have achieved through any other media 16 organization. 17 3632 They have allowed us to grow and 18 watched us and actually pointed out the fact that we 19 were growing. 20 3633 When I saw Jack coming up and talking 21 about aboriginal tourism, G'Nadjiwon Ki; beautiful 22 land. You can't help but think of VRLand, too. 23 3634 I look at his group in its genesis 24 days and getting help, real, serious, important 25 structural help for free.
1 3635 VR gives help for free to so many 2 people. We are one. 3 3636 When we last summer took the big 4 challenge and took on the big city and took a Rodin 5 show to Toronto and spent $1.1 million putting it on 6 there, the first place we turned to for help was The 7 NewVR to follow the progress of this great Canadian 8 asset. 9 3637 We did take it to Toronto, and our 10 own community heard very strong words about this 11 amazing cultural asset resting in Toronto. What we got 12 in Toronto was Toronto: that sense of how can these 13 guys from away be pulling off anything this 14 spectacular? And in the tradition of Canadian, and 15 sometimes Toronto, media -- with CHUM as an exception 16 -- they were trying to eat their young. 17 3638 At home we had positive response, 18 which allowed us to grow and allowed us to achieve 19 something more important: the pride of a community and 20 an asset that they knew was important for a whole 21 country. That came through the support of VR. 22 3639 VR produces PSAs for us. It is 23 involved in the production of a documentary on Art 24 City, which is an outgrowth of that collection of 25 Rodins. We are transforming the city of Barrie into an
1 international art park. 2 3640 In the Sesqui Centennial Year, which 3 is next year, I am plugging Sesqui Centennial, because 4 we have all learned to say it now -- 5 3641 MR. LEBEL: Excuse me, Mr. Moore. 6 You are now exceeding the allocated time. 7 3642 MR. MOORE: In our Sesqui Centennial 8 Year we will achieve a wonderful new arts project in 9 Barrie, and this is with the help of The NewVR. 10 3643 I urge you to support their 11 application. 12 3644 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 13 3645 Commissioner Wylie. 14 3646 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: I only have one 15 question, Ms Laking: Did you ever sit this late when 16 you were mayor? 17 3647 MS LAKING: Yes. Actually, this is 18 the time of night that I really come awake. 19 --- Laughter / Rires 20 3648 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: Thank you for 21 your participation. 22 3649 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are now going to 23 call a break. 24 3650 We will resume in ten minutes. 25 --- Upon recessing at 2035 / Suspension à 2035
1 --- Upon resuming at 2050 / Reprend à 2050 2 3651 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please. À 3 l'ordre, s'il vous plaît. 4 3652 Mr. Secretary. 5 3653 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 6 3654 Interventions 9 and 21 on the agenda 7 will appear as a panel: Christopher Doty; and the 8 Multicultural Council of Windsor & Essex County, 9 represented by Mike Marica and Kathleen Thomas. 10 3655 You have ten minutes to make your 11 presentation. 12 INTERVENTION 13 3656 MR. HARRIS: First of all, I am not 14 Mike Marica and I am certainly not Kathy Thomas. 15 3657 Good evening, Mr. Chair and 16 Commissioners. My name is Wayne Harris. I am the 17 special events co-ordinator for the Multicultural 18 Council. 19 3658 I am pleased to be here so speak on 20 behalf of the board of directors, Mike Marica, and my 21 executive director Kathy Thomas, who could not be here 22 this evening. 23 3659 First and foremost, I would like to 24 read our mission statement. I should know it off by 25 heart -- and I do -- but I am a little nervous. This
1 is the first time I have ever been in front of a panel 2 like this. 3 3660 Our mission statement is to promote 4 and encourage a harmonious society in Windsor and Essex 5 County -- that is, multicultural, multiethnic and 6 multifaith -- to work in a social quality of all 7 cultures. 8 3661 The Multicultural Council has been 9 very fortunate to have an ongoing partnership and 10 support of CHWI-TV, which is also known in the Windsor 11 and Essex County area as The NewWI. 12 3662 Over the past four years, CHWI-TV's 13 management and staff have worked with the MCC to raise 14 awareness and much needed funding to keep our programs 15 ongoing to newcomers to Canada. 16 3663 I would like to give you a few 17 examples of this. 18 3664 For example, we have a Harmony Ribbon 19 campaign which the MCC does in conjunction with 20 International Day of Elimination of Racism and 21 Discrimination, which falls in the month of March. As 22 you all know, March 21st is the International Day of 23 Elimination of Racism. 24 3665 The NewWI helps the MCC get the 25 message out to the schools, within the schools both the
1 Catholic and the Board of Education, the public sector, 2 business and the private sector. 3 3666 The MCC throws two different 4 community events, large fund raising events, and The 5 NewWI helps us raise funds awareness. One of them is 6 called the Carousel of Nations, which goes over two 7 weekends in June, the third and fourth weekend; and 8 Expo, the Multicultural Festival which happens the 9 first weekend of June. 10 3667 What we do here is over approximately 11 30 different multicultural groups get together. They 12 showcase their foods, their entertainment and their 13 cultural diversity within the community of Windsor and 14 Essex County. 15 3668 Also, The NewWI does special days, 16 which are called cultural days. These start at the 17 first of April and run right to the end of June. 18 3669 We also get the support of The NewWI 19 on different programs within the Multicultural Council, 20 which is our host program which helps newcomers 21 integrate into the community. Without The NewWI and 22 the shows we put on, a lot of Canadian citizens would 23 not have the opportunity to integrate with new 24 Canadians that are coming over. They know nobody. It 25 is unfamiliar land. It is unfamiliar territory to
1 them. By integrating Canadian citizens with these 2 newcomers, it helps the newcomers integrate into 3 Windsor and Essex County and the Canadian culture. 4 3670 Without The NewWI, the MCC and many 5 other non-profit organizations that I personally sit on 6 the board of and volunteer for would have a hard time 7 getting this message out into the Windsor and Essex 8 County area. 9 3671 In closing, I would like to say The 10 NewWI and the new day shows have proven to be a great 11 asset to the community at large. 12 3672 That's all I have to say tonight. I 13 thank you. 14 3673 MR. DOTY: Now for something 15 completely different. 16 3674 My name is Christopher Doty. I am an 17 independent documentary producer, specializing in 18 London, Ontario, history. If you can find somebody in 19 the Canadian broadcasting industry that has a more 20 niche job than that, I would certainly like to meet 21 them. 22 3675 I am here to speak on behalf of the 23 renewal of the WI sister station, The NewPL's licensing 24 application. 25 3676 I am going to try not to crow about
1 the station that Commissioner Langford was so concerned 2 about; and if I do crow about it, I hope you will rap 3 my knuckles for it. 4 3677 I am here to basically talk about the 5 strengths of The NewPL from the standpoint of bringing 6 the best of both local and national programming 7 together. This was very well illustrated, I believe, 8 in a project I had the good fortune to be involved 9 with. 10 3678 It was a television documentary on 11 the Grand Theatre in London, Ontario, which has the 12 distinction of being the oldest continually performing 13 playhouse in Canada. It was going to be celebrating 14 its 100th anniversary in September, and I thought it 15 would be a nice idea to do a documentary on this. 16 3679 So I went down to the station, got in 17 to see Don Mumford. I approached The NewPL for two 18 reasons. One, it had very strong connections. It was 19 well associated with the Grand. And secondly, and most 20 importantly, it had loads and loads of archival film 21 footage, dating back to the 1950s. 22 3680 The NewPL was unique in that unlike a 23 lot of private stations, it kept all of its archives. 24 I knew that if the documentary was to be any good at
1 3681 To make a long story short, I got the 2 film footage. I also got some development money from 3 Don; and in addition to that, I got a licensing 4 agreement. 5 3682 It was because of this that I was 6 able to leverage this funding to get funding from other 7 local companies in the London area and funding from the 8 Canadian Independent Film and Video Fund. 9 3683 At this point the project changed 10 direction. It was no longer this kind of small, local 11 documentary about how wonderful it is that London has 12 the Grand Theatre; it became more national in scope. 13 3684 As I mentioned, because of its age 14 the Grand encompassed almost every facet of Canadian 15 history throughout the past century, from vaudeville to 16 amateur theatre to professional theatre. 17 3685 As a result of the larger budgets we 18 were able to obtain, we were able to do things like go 19 down to Connecticut and interview the actor Hume 20 Cronyn, who was born in London and had connections with 21 the Grand dating back to the 1930s. We were able to 22 increase the production values. We were able to even 23 hire a make-up artists for the more temperamental 24 interview subjects. 25 3686 We even got a licensing agreement
1 from Bravo to take it nationally. This, of course, 2 changed the whole scope of the project. 3 3687 Remember what I said to you about it 4 being a local documentary. Strangely enough, it 5 maintained those characteristics when it was released. 6 The people of London responded to it in a way that here 7 was a documentary of national scope and yet they were 8 in it. They were the people who had been the ushers. 9 They had sat in the audience. They had painted the 10 backdrops. They had even acted on stage. 11 3688 In short, it made the citizens of 12 London realize what a marvellous theatrical gem they 13 had in their community and how they were a part of the 14 story. 15 3689 In thinking about all the aggravation 16 I had to put up with when I made that documentary and 17 all the extra grey hair I got, that really made up so 18 much to me, the fact that it had that kind of impact on 19 people. 20 3690 I think that was well expressed by 21 the people of London when they saw the documentary and 22 saw the contribution that The NewPL had in it in 23 turning this local documentary into something of 24 national importance that at the premier, believe it or
1 and I am still very bitter about that. 2 -- Laughter / Rires 3 3691 MR. DOTY: However, I will swallow my 4 bitterness with the realization that without the 5 contributions of The NewPL, that documentary would 6 still be a proposal sitting in my filing cabinet and 7 that right now I would be at my home in London washing 8 dishes instead of having the honour of speaking to you. 9 3692 Thank you very much. 10 3693 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 11 3694 Commissioner Langford? 12 3695 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I have no 13 questions. It was perfectly clear, and your written 14 submission was clear as well. 15 3696 I just want you to clarify one thing. 16 We encourage crowing here. We don't particularly like 17 crows, but we do encourage crowing. 18 3697 Our major concern over the lat two 19 days is to be absolutely sure that in seven years when 20 you come back you will be able to crow just as loudly. 21 3698 Thank you very much. 22 3699 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 23 much, gentlemen, for your presentations. 24 3700 Mr. Secretary. 25 3701 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
1 3702 We will try to go back to the phone 2 to hear from item 11 on the agenda, the Association for 3 Media Literacy; and, on their behalf is Ms Carolyn 4 Wilson. 5 3703 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Todd didn't go 6 away bitter, did she? 7 3704 MR. LEBEL: I don't know. We haven't 8 communicated with her yet. 9 3705 Can you hear me, Ms Wilson? 10 3706 MS WILSON: Yes, I can, just barely. 11 Can you hear me? 12 3707 MR. LEBEL: Yes, we can hear you 13 perfectly. You have ten minutes to make your 14 presentation. 15 3708 MS WILSON: Thank you very much. 16 INTERVENTION 17 3709 MS WILSON: I an Carolyn Wilson, and 18 I am the President of the Association for Media 19 Literacy, which is a voluntary non-profit organization 20 committed to promoting media literacy education. 21 3710 I am also a teacher of media literacy 22 at St. Michael's Secondary School in Stratford. 23 3711 My remarks this evening will focus on 24 two main areas. I will begin by defining media 25 literacy and its place in Ontario schools, and I will
1 go on to talk about the commitment of CHUM and The 2 NewPL to literacy, describing several of their 3 initiatives and how these have benefited educators. 4 3712 In Ontario Media Literacy is 5 concerned with the process of understanding and using 6 the mass media. It involves developing literacy skills 7 for print based media and is also concerned with 8 helping students develop an informed and critical 9 understanding of the screen based media that are part 10 of their lives today. 11 3713 By high school graduation, the 12 average student will have spent $11,000 in the 13 classroom, 10,500 hours listening to music and 15,000 14 hours watching television. 15 3714 By the time the average Canadian 16 reaches the age of 65, he or she will have spent 14 17 waking years watching television. 18 3715 Because the media occupy a central 19 role in our lives today, it is clear that media 20 literacy is a life skill. 21 3716 In Canada media literacy is mandated 22 in every province, and in Ontario it is part of the 23 language arts curriculum at the elementary level and 24 the English curriculum at the secondary level. 25 3717 The involvement of CHUM and The NewPL
1 has been absolutely crucial in the promotion and the 2 development of media literacy in southwestern Ontario 3 and indeed across Canada. CHUM is the only private 4 sector company that has supported media literacy 5 initiatives that have been implemented by teachers for 6 teachers and for students, parents and community 7 groups. 8 3718 This has happened in the London area 9 and in many other communities across Canada. 10 3719 Because media literacy is a 11 relatively new subject area and there are very few 12 teacher training opportunities available, implementing 13 new curriculum in Ontario has been very challenging. 14 There is virtually no in-service in media literacy 15 taking place at faculties of education, and absolutely 16 none has been offered through the Ministry of 17 Education. 18 3720 Through the support of CHUM 19 Television and The NewPL, I have been able to organize 20 annual training sessions for teachers and parents 21 through both of the London school boards. 22 3721 For teachers these workshops offer 23 what they need in terms of resources and methodology 24 for implementing new media literacy curriculum. 25 3722 As well as underwriting these
1 training sessions, CHUM Television provides media 2 literacy programming that is copyright cleared and 3 commercial free and curriculum guides to support this 4 programming. These programs and their guides are 5 available to educators across the country. 6 3723 The feedback we have received has 7 been overwhelmingly positive with regard to the 8 presentations themselves and the resources that CHUM 9 has made available. Especially positive has been the 10 feedback given to the programming which addresses 11 Canada's cultural diversity and important global issues 12 of our time. 13 3724 I want to emphasize that CHUM's 14 involvement in media literacy has been invaluable and 15 completely appropriate, because it is done at arm's 16 length. They don't send their own people in to conduct 17 teacher training sessions, but they make it possible 18 for qualified educators to deliver the programs that 19 teachers need. 20 3725 CHUM Television also does some 21 professional development for these educators. Thanks 22 to CHUM's corporate support, for example, I have been 23 able to attend a number of important conferences, most 24 recently in Porto Alegre, Brazil. 25 3726 CHUM was also a major sponsor of
1 Summit 2000 in Toronto, which was the first 2 international conference of its kind that brought 3 together media educators and industry professionals 4 from over 55 countries. 5 3727 You have already heard about another 6 first: the London Public Library project which Darryl 7 Skidmore described for you earlier. I am the media 8 literacy consultant working on the CHUM Television 9 Media Literacy Centre. 10 3728 This centre will provide a tremendous 11 and unique community service to teachers, parents, 12 students and citizens in general interested in media 13 literacy. 14 3729 I will end my remarks by saying that 15 the commitment of CHUM and The NewPL is outstanding, 16 invaluable and is making a difference in the lives of 17 thousands of teachers and students today. 18 3730 Thank you very much. 19 3731 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 20 3732 Commissioner Cardozo. 21 3733 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks very 22 much for your presentation and for waiting patiently by 23 the phone. 24 3734 MS WILSON: That is no trouble. 25 3735 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I don't have
1 any questions. I just wanted to comment on one thing. 2 3736 Your presentation was very clear and 3 answered some of the questions I had about the 4 priorities around media literacy. One of the comments 5 you made about the arm's length relationship is one 6 that I note with interest. Especially when there are 7 benefits involved the arm's length relationship is an 8 important one. 9 3737 The kind of a support that a 10 broadcaster provides is always important, and when they 11 do it at arm's length as opposed to part of their 12 ongoing work is particularly important. 13 3738 I take note of that comment. Thank 14 you very much. 15 3739 MS WILSON: Thank you. I think it is 16 also really important, and it allows educators who are 17 involved in the curriculum, who are really the experts 18 in the field, to control the content of the 19 presentations and the way they are delivered. 20 3740 So I agree that it is very important. 21 3741 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you. 22 3742 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 23 much, Ms Wilson. 24 3743 MS WILSON: Thank you. 25 3744 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary.
1 3745 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 2 3746 The next intervention will be 3 presented by Dan and Mary Lou Smoke. 4 3747 You have ten minutes to make your 5 presentation. 6 INTERVENTION 7 3748 MR. SMOKE: Miigwetch, Pierre. 8 3749 My name is Dan Smoke, Asayenes from 9 the Seneca Nation. I am here today with my wife, Mary 10 Lou Smoke. 11 3750 MS SMOKE: In my language, which is 12 Ojibwa, when we greet people, we say "boozhoo". So, 13 boozhoo. 14 --- Native language spoken / Langue autochtone parlée 15 3751 MS SMOKE: I just shared with you my 16 First Nations name, which is Shooting Star Woman. It 17 comes from a combination of my Ojibwa language and my 18 husband's Seneca language. 19 3752 I also shared that I am of the bear 20 clan and I come from Batchawana Bay, Ontario, but I 21 have been living in London with my husband for 25 years 22 now. What we are sharing with you are things that we 23 share in our community of London, Ontario. 24 3753 MR. SMOKE: First off, we would like 25 to acknowledge that we are in the land of the
1 Outaouais, which is the Algonquin Territorial name. We 2 want to acknowledge our respect, being in their 3 territory. 4 3754 We just want to preface our remarks 5 with that respect. 6 3755 As we were coming here, we were 7 thinking about what it was that we wanted to say. 8 3756 As storytellers, in our tradition we 9 come from a fine tradition of storytelling. What we do 10 is we report the news, the public affairs, the current 11 events of issues that are of concern to the First 12 Nations, to the aboriginal population at large. 13 3757 When we tell that story, there are 14 five different types of story-telling, and that is one 15 of them. 16 3758 We are not educated as journalists, 17 but we have learned over the course of our lives how to 18 communicate our stories that come from our traditions, 19 that come from our histories, from our oral histories, 20 that come from our people and from our communities. 21 3759 This is something that we have both 22 absorbed in our lifetime. 23 3760 This is through the tradition of 24 absorbing the knowledge and the wisdom of our Elders. 25 Our Elders are very revered in our culture, in our
1 life, and we spend a lot of time with them and we 2 listen to them. They share with us their wisdom and 3 their life experience and their knowledge. 4 3761 We have used this indigenous 5 knowledge, these oral histories, in many of our 6 commentaries that we are doing now at The NewPL. 7 3762 We have been doing the commentaries 8 now for about two and a half years. Prior to that we 9 had been an award-winning radio broadcast. We have a 10 program called "Smoke Signals" broadcast out of Radio 11 Western, whom you heard from I believe on Monday. 12 3763 At CHRW, our radio station was the 13 number one rated community campus radio station in 14 Canada last year. We like to think that we helped to 15 contribute towards that. 16 3764 We are also print communicators, 17 storytellers. We write for about six or seven 18 different publications on a regular basis. Our life 19 today is just immersed in storytelling, and we love it. 20 3765 We have a couple of points that we 21 want to make. 22 3766 Most Canadians have little or no 23 contact with native people and must rely on mainstream 24 broadcasting for their information. Many of the 25 accusations coming from native communities about
1 misrepresentation in the mainstream news are 2 attributable to the fact that mainstream journalists 3 are incapable of experiencing and therefore of 4 representing native people's sense of reality. 5 However well intentioned members of the non-native 6 media complex may be, they simply do not have the 7 necessary historical nor cultural awareness to do 8 justice to native stories. 9 3767 Canada will continue to stagger as a 10 nation so long as the public refuses to acknowledge a 11 Canadian history which includes native peoples. 12 Canadians are frustrated with the lack of information 13 regarding native issues which affect them, particularly 14 with the lack of relevant and historical information on 15 land claims issues. We constantly get asked, "Why 16 haven't we heard about this before? How come no one 17 told us about this history?" 18 3768 We have been very fortunate in that 19 we have been able to do a lot of historical 20 commentaries where we have been able to express the 21 history, the true history, from our perspective of why 22 First Nations people today experience a lot of the 23 pathologies that we are experiencing in our communities 24 and a lot of the inequalities that we also experience. 25 3769 We are very keen on expressing an
1 account of history that we believe comes from the 2 research that we have endeavoured to do and knowledge 3 that we have uncovered in our research. We pass that 4 on in our tradition. That is part of our story-telling 5 tradition. 6 3770 The mainstream media, as both the 7 mirror of society's values and the messenger that 8 delivers the dispatches it senses the public is keen to 9 receive, make a judgment based on what they deem 10 important and worthy of space or airtime. The editors 11 and writers working there bring an inherent prejudice 12 to the workplace, much of it rooted in ignorance. 13 3771 It doesn't help that there are few 14 aboriginal journalists employed in Canadian newsrooms. 15 3772 We have been very grateful for the 16 opportunities that have been presented and have been 17 made to us by this opportunity to work with The NewPL. 18 We have been able to help, we believe, sensitize not 19 only the newsroom but also to sensitize the public, as 20 well as raising awareness and public education about 21 our culture and our way of life. 22 3773 That in itself raises a better and 23 greater understanding in our community. We are 24 starting to see that. We are starting to see many of 25 our own people starting to access The NewPL. They have
1 phoned in stories. 2 3774 This was something that didn't happen 3 five years ago where someone from, say, the Onyota'aka 4 Oneida Settlement community, which is located just 5 outside of London, would phone in a story that they 6 wanted some coverage on. For the most part the 7 television station just wouldn't send anyone out there, 8 for reasons unknown. 9 3775 But today they are sending news crews 10 out to the Reserves, and we are very grateful for that. 11 3776 This past September we partnered with 12 the museum of London, which used to be known as the 13 London Regional Historical Museum, which the person who 14 just preceded us was talking about. 15 3777 The museum in London was the place 16 where we had this gathering called the Gathering of the 17 Good Minds. It was a gathering where we brought our 18 artists, our artistic people who express themselves 19 through film, through story-telling, through song, 20 dance, drumming. We also brought in our Elders, the 21 traditional knowledge carriers, the wisdom keepers. We 22 brought them all together, and for three days we had 23 people from a whole cross-section of London coming in 24 to be part of these workshops that we had, part of the 25 circles that we had, to be part of around the sacred
1 fire, the ceremonies that we conducted. 2 3778 People from the museum in London, 3 when they took count of the attendance figures, it was 4 the first time that the museum in London had ever had 5 attendance figures as high as that. There was only one 6 higher attendance figure, and that was by Roberta 7 Bondar, when she had her photo exhibit from up in 8 space. 9 3779 That tells you a little bit about how 10 many people we attracted to this three-day event. 11 3780 It also competed with the homecoming 12 weekend in London, which is a big weekend, because 13 London is a university town. 14 3781 We believe that The NewPL deserves to 15 have its licence renewed. We believe in this very 16 strongly. We believe that aboriginal voice heard on 17 The NewPL is very helpful in raising the understanding 18 and awareness that is taking place. 19 3782 Just to share one more thing, no 20 matter where we go in the city of London we are 21 recognized. It could be in the supermarket. It could 22 be in the bank. It could be wherever. 23 3783 One time I was going to the bank 24 about 2 o'clock in the morning, and I was coming back 25 home, walking across the street. I crossed this
1 intersection and a guy on a motorcycle yelled out at 2 me, "Hey, you're the guy that's on The NewPL." I 3 didn't want to be recognized at that particular moment, 4 but he recognized me. I said, "Thank you for watching. 5 Miigwetch." 6 3784 Mary Lou recounts one when she was 7 here at the Ottawa airport, and she was recognized when 8 she came here on one of her trips. 9 3785 MS SMOKE: This lady came up to me 10 when I was waiting for my baggage and she said, "Your 11 out of Smokes, aren't you. I watch you all the time up 12 by Wingham." 13 3786 Then other times I have been in the 14 grocery stores, and one time I was in a bargain 15 department store shopping for a cheap item, and I was 16 on my knees going through the racks and this guy comes 17 up to me and says, "Aren't you Mrs. Smoke?" Well, I 18 quit shopping there. 19 --- Laughter / Rires 20 3787 MR. SMOKE: We have felt these 21 heartfelt expressions that come from our own Elders, as 22 well. One of our Elders who is a mentor to us said to 23 us, "It's time for our people to tell our story. It's 24 time for us to be heard. Dan and Mary Lou, I am very 25 grateful that you are doing that. I am very grateful
1 that you are doing what you are doing." 2 3788 This comes from our own Elders whom 3 we have so much respect for, expressing this to us. It 4 was a compliment. I just started crying because it was 5 so beautiful. We never expected that. We just 6 followed in the tradition that he passed on to us. 7 That is all we are doing. We are just passing on this 8 fine tradition. 9 3789 MR. LEBEL: Mr. Smoke, your time is 10 up. 11 3790 MR. SMOKE: We want to sing one song, 12 if we could. 13 3791 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary, can 14 they sing a song? 15 3792 MR. LEBEL: Of course, Mr. Chairman. 16 3793 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead. 17 3794 MS SMOKE: Miigwetch. I want to 18 explain a little bit about this song. 19 3795 This is a song that we sing in our 20 sweatlodges in our sacred ceremonies. It is a song to 21 honour the eagle, because in our beliefs the eagle 22 flies the highest and the eagle carries our prayers up 23 to the sky world where our ancestors have gone before 24 us. 25 3796 I want to sing this song to honour
1 all the messengers here. That is a lot of people in 2 the room and a lot of people sitting up here, too. 3 --- Musical interlude / Intermède musical 4 3797 MR. SMOKE: Do you have any 5 questions? 6 --- Laughter / Rires 7 3798 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. But I hope the 8 applicant has as good a song in reply. 9 3799 Thank you very much, both for your 10 presentation and for the song. 11 3800 Mr. Secretary. 12 3801 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 13 3802 We will try to go back to Ms Loretta 14 Todd on the telephone. 15 3803 Are you there, Ms Todd? 16 3804 Can you hear me? 17 3805 MS TODD: Yes, I can. 18 3806 MR. LEBEL: We can now hear you. 19 3807 MS TODD: I am glad. 20 3808 MR. LEBEL: I apologize for the 21 technical difficulties. 22 3809 You have ten minutes to make your 23 presentation. 24 3810 MS TODD: Thank you. 25 INTERVENTION
1 3811 MS TODD: Thank you, Chairman Dalfen 2 and the other esteemed Members of the CRTC, for this 3 opportunity to speak to you today albeit virtually. 4 3812 As an independent aboriginal 5 producer, there are certain expectations I have when 6 dealing with broadcasters. I would even call them 7 values. They include accessibility, professionalism, 8 creative vision and intelligence with respect to 9 programming and audiences. 10 3813 CHUM in Toronto and CKVU in Vancouver 11 encompass all these and more. They are also fun, 12 funny, respectful and risk-taking, yet unabashed about 13 the entertainment part of television. Somehow they 14 have figured out that TV can be intelligent even as it 15 enthrals. 16 3814 The intelligence comes in many forms. 17 CHUM understands the value of critical thinking in 18 programming and of instilling the right to question who 19 and what our society is about. They embrace diversity. 20 They understand popular culture. They aren't afraid of 21 the edges, yet they do this within the framework of 22 market forces and market economies. 23 3815 In a climate of increasing 24 conformity, CHUM accepts the challenge of supporting 25 all spectrum of voices, experience, ways of expression
1 and ways of looking at the world. 2 3816 In my time of dealing with CHUM, I 3 have only been encouraged. And yes, the ever "E" word, 4 the one that was overused in the nineties but is still 5 relevant, and that is "empowered". 6 3817 For me, this creates an atmosphere in 7 which as a producer and filmmaker I can only expand the 8 scope of my expression and expand the audience where my 9 work is viewed. 10 3818 As I indicated in my letter to the 11 CRTC, CHUM and CKVU have already made a difference in 12 Vancouver, welcoming different voices through 13 consultation, the start-up of their "Vancouver's Other 14 Stories", which is a short story initiative from 15 coloured and aboriginal people. 16 3819 They have already brought a fresh and 17 fair and balanced perspective on the news. In fact, I 18 am watching local news again. 19 3820 People I know who would otherwise not 20 approach a broadcaster are now excited about being able 21 to approach CKVU. 22 3821 Although there is not an aboriginal 23 producers group per se across Canada, there are 24 different ones and there is an initiative at the moment 25 to bring together aboriginal producers.
1 3822 In the past I have been part of the 2 Aboriginal Film Video Arts Alliance which resulted in 3 the Aboriginal Arts Program at the Banff Centre and 4 have been involved in various training programs through 5 various institutions in Vancouver, from Simon Fraser 6 University to Capilano College. I am presently part of 7 a training program that is part of APTN. It is at 8 Capilano College. 9 3823 I do feel I have some background with 10 respect to capacity building. Although I don't have 11 all the facts with respect to CHUM's look to have more 12 flexibility with respect to its funding, if you like, 13 its perception as a producer, I do know that any kind 14 of flexibility that CHUM can have to help build 15 capacity within the aboriginal people and coloured 16 community is very important. 17 3824 Although I know that independent 18 filmmakers have a stake in wanting to maintain an 19 equity, if you like, in their work -- and I feel that 20 is very critical to being an independent producer -- at 21 the same time, I also know that many of the independent 22 producers in the mainstream and established producers 23 right now have a symbiotic relationship with many 24 broadcasters in Canada and have been able to build an 25 infrastructure as a consequence.
1 3825 We haven't really been able to build 2 that infrastructure as aboriginal producers in the same 3 way. I have talked to CHUM, and I have encouraged them 4 to try to help build that infrastructure through 5 coproduction and other kinds of partnerships with the 6 aboriginal and, I guess by extension, also the people 7 of the coloured community in Canada, and in this case 8 Vancouver. 9 3826 That is essentially my presentation. 10 I would welcome any questions. 11 3827 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 12 3828 Commissioner Grauer. 13 3829 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Ms Todd, it is 14 Cindy Grauer. Thank you very much. I don't have any 15 questions for you, but I appreciate your taking part in 16 this. I know it is difficult by the phone, because I 17 do meetings all the time with these people in Ottawa by 18 phone. 19 3830 Thank you very much. 20 3831 MS TODD: Thank you. 21 3832 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 22 3833 Mr. Secretary, the next intervenor, 23 please. 24 3834 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 25 3835 The next intervention will be
1 presented by Mr. Derek Diorio from Distinct Features 2 Inc. 3 INTERVENTION 4 3836 MR. DIORIO: Now we know how the Sens 5 and the Leafs felt as we go into the fifth overtime 6 period. 7 3837 My name is Derek Diorio. I am the 8 President of Distinct Features. I am a producer and a 9 filmmaker. 10 3838 Distinct Features is an Ottawa-based 11 independent production company that specializes in the 12 making of privately-financed feature films -- films 13 which are unapologetically set and made in Ottawa. We 14 don't dress our films up to look like they are made in 15 the States or try to fool anyone into believing that 16 the setting is anywhere other than Ottawa. 17 3839 Prevailing wisdom would have it that 18 this approach is suicidal, certainly for international 19 sales. In reality, the exact opposite has transpired. 20 Our second feature film "House of Luk", a story set in 21 a Chinese restaurant in Ottawa, is distributed by a 22 German company, Peppermint Distribution, and has been 23 sold in China, Malaysia, Indonesia, Mexico, Portugal, 24 New Zealand and South America, with further sales 25 pending.
1 3840 "House of Luk" is a local story that 2 has a universal theme. 3 3841 The principals of Distinct Features 4 come from a live performance and television background. 5 However, we had to abandon the idea of doing local 6 television, because it didn't appear that the 7 broadcasters in this community were interested in 8 making series programs. Neither CBOT nor CJOH are 9 created any series programming with local, independent 10 producers. 11 3842 My understanding is they have a 12 mandate to do so, but I don't see the programs that 13 reflect the local community on their airwaves. 14 3843 With local broadcasters' emphasis on 15 news and newsroom-driven programming, we, as in the 16 people and producers of Ottawa and The National Capital 17 Region, don't really get to tell our own stories, 18 certainly not in the realm of drama, fiction or comedy. 19 3844 As I said earlier, we had abandoned 20 the idea of television. Then one day in July of last 21 year that changed. 22 3845 The traditional approach is for the 23 producer to pitch the broadcaster on a project. I know 24 this from personal experience. You do a lot of that. 25 3846 In our case, CHUM called us. They
1 knew that we had a history and a background in comedy. 2 They asked us what kind of show we would like to do and 3 let us do it. 4 3847 Hence, "Ottawa, Technically Funny" 5 was born -- a fast-paced sketch comedy series whose 6 subject matter was the Ottawa Valley, and the other 7 side of the river if we chose to do so. We produced 8 six episodes of this program, and I would have to say 9 that CHUM and CHRO hardly laid a finger on the project 10 at all. 11 3848 We were given creative and production 12 freedom, asked to respect their broadcast code of 13 ethics -- of course, I got that after we had done the 14 show. 15 --- Laughter / Rires 16 3849 MR. DIORIO: But away we went. 17 3850 CHUM and CHRO have supported "Ottawa, 18 Technically Funny", promoted it and have gone out of 19 their way to let us know how much they liked the show. 20 To wit, they have asked us to do six more episodes in 21 the coming year. 22 3851 Aside from the favourable reviews and 23 positive audience response that the show has garnered, 24 the one comment that has come up time and time again 25 about "Ottawa, Technically Funny" has been: How is it
1 possible that in this day and age you can produce a 2 program of such intensely local fare? 3 3852 The implication, I am afraid, is that 4 the concept of local programming in drama and comedy is 5 truly dead. 6 3853 The climate today requires that shows 7 be manufactured for broad national and international 8 audiences and that local flavour be removed entirely in 9 favour of a more homogenized product. Therefore, where 10 you come from fundamentally doesn't matter. 11 3854 It matters to me. I live here. I 12 have no interest in going to live anywhere else. I 13 want to work where I live, make quality programs about 14 who I am and what I am. 15 3855 CHUM and CHRO are the only 16 broadcasters in this market willing to support that. 17 3856 One small aside about "Ottawa, 18 Technically Funny", a local program, a program that has 19 been rejected by the Canadian Comedy Network for being 20 too regional and not reflecting that station's 21 sensibility -- whatever that is. 22 3857 We just returned from MIP, the 23 television market in Cannes where we were selling three 24 of our latest films. "Ottawa, Technically Funny" was 25 on our company CV and was spotted by Comédie, a French
1 broadcaster that has a presence in all French 2 territories worldwide. They requested the show and 3 even after being informed of the content, they were 4 relentless about us sending the entire series to 5 screen. 6 3858 They are presently seriously 7 considering the purchase of the series -- not bad for a 8 show that is considered too local in its country of 9 origin. 10 3859 Aside from "Technically Funny", CHRO 11 has broadcast our first film "Two's a Mob", and CHUM 12 has made an offer on "House of Luk" and are currently 13 looking at two of our latest films, "Punch and Judy" 14 and "A Taste of Jupiter". 15 3860 As well, they have offered 16 development monies for everything from feature films to 17 documentaries and Sci-Fi series. It is only through 18 this kind of support that we can continue to live and 19 work in this community. 20 3861 I am not here to crow. I am here to 21 support CHUM and CHRO because, unlike CBOT or CJOH, 22 they support local comedy and drama productions. 23 3862 Thank you. 24 3863 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 25 3864 Commissioner Cardozo.
1 3865 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, 2 Mr. Diorio, for coming and staying all day. I have 3 watched you here. 4 3866 I have actually watched you for some 5 years, back when you were a comedian. I was a fan of 6 yours, and I am a fan now as you are a producer. 7 3867 I am going to ask you one question 8 about "Ottawa, Technically Funny". There is a segment 9 "Sex with Serge". Are you actually Serge? 10 3868 MR. DIORIO: No. 11 3869 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: My next 12 question was going to be: Do you really know that much 13 about sex? 14 3870 MR. DIORIO: No. 15 --- Laughter / Rires 16 3871 THE CHAIRPERSON: He might be "Ed the 17 Sock", though. 18 3872 MR. DIORIO: Actually, we have had 19 that idea -- we used to be in a comedy group called 20 Skit Row. One of the things about living in Ottawa -- 21 and this is a small aside. There are two cultures 22 here. We have the French side and we have the English 23 side. I am half French Canadian. Dan Lalande, who was 24 a member of Skit Row, is in the same boat. We found 25 that we used to do humour about being French Canadian
1 and English and everything in this community, and it 2 would go over huge. We had a huge French Canadian 3 audience in this community. 4 3873 We would go and do the same thing in 5 Toronto and people would be mortified. It was 6 unbelievable. 7 3874 So it has been nice to do this kind 8 of show and put it on the air and be supported by the 9 broadcasters. 10 3875 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Tell me in 11 general terms what a show like "Ottawa, Technically 12 Funny" does for Ottawa as a community that all the 13 news, the public affairs, the soft news, and all of 14 that does not do. 15 3876 MR. DIORIO: My own personal belief 16 is that we have too much damned news on the air. Why 17 do all the channels have to have news? Can't they take 18 some of that money and put it into entertainment? 19 3877 I think what it does is it gives us a 20 different spin, although ironically we are parodying 21 news because it is the easiest form to do. CHRO is 22 being kind enough to let us parody them. 23 3878 It helps us do stuff that you can't 24 do anywhere else. We get a chance to make fun of the 25 things that matter to us in the community.
1 3879 I learned this a long time ago. We 2 are from Ottawa, and everyone expected us to do a 3 comedy based on the Hill. Well, it turns out that only 4 about 3,000 people work on the Hill in this city. 5 Everybody else has to contend with OC Transpo, Blue 6 Line, regional government, all those kinds of things. 7 So those are more important. People want to see those 8 things on the air, and they like to see them made fun 9 of -- at least I think so anyway. 10 3880 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you for 11 being here. 12 3881 MR. DIORIO: Thank you. 13 3882 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 14 3883 Mr. Secretary. 15 3884 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Mr. Chairman, 16 we shouldn't have kept this guy waiting, because he has 17 too much material now. We could be in trouble. 18 3885 MR. LEBEL: Mr. Chairman, we don't 19 have anybody on the phone yet. The last appearing 20 intervenors will appear as a panel. 21 3886 It is Aruna Koushik from the Windsor 22 Regional Hospital and Mariella Vigneux from the Grey 23 Bruce Health Unit. 24 INTERVENTION 25 3887 MS KOUSHIK: Good night, Mr. Chairman
1 and Members of the Commission, as well as all those 2 patiently waiting here. 3 3888 When I thought about coming here, I 4 was wondering whether I should change my opening 5 statement that I usually do and decided against it. My 6 opening statement usually is: In the course of my 7 presentation, if I say anything that may offend all of 8 you, I apologize up-front. The reason I say that is 9 that I usually say things that offend people. 10 3889 Having said that, now I am covered. 11 And it is too late in the night to hold me responsible 12 for my statements. 13 3890 Having said that, I come from a place 14 which is absolutely beautiful. It is the city of 15 roses. It is called Windsor. It is life outside 16 Toronto. 17 3891 Invariably it happens with me that 18 previous speakers usually steal my lines or my words. 19 Mayor Janice Laking said we need an identity of our 20 own. Windsorites and people in the tri-county area 21 there desperately look for their own identity and fight 22 to maintain their identity as Canadians. 23 3892 We are very close to the big city of 24 Detroit, and quite often when you enter Windsor you 25 think the skyline is Windsor's. No, it isn't. It is
1 Detroit across the border. 2 3893 So we fight for Canadian content in 3 our local stories in our day-to-day viewing of 4 television. 5 3894 Quite a few years ago CBC stopped 6 their local programming, so we were sort of left high 7 and dry to the local newspaper, which really didn't 8 meet our needs. I don't think it meets our needs even 9 now, because all we hear are gory stories. 10 3895 When The NewWI started in Windsor, we 11 were ecstatic. They have been absolutely fabulous with 12 the tri-county area and the stories that they cover. 13 3896 For those who don't know, Windsor is 14 the third most diverse community in Ontario. I am the 15 mediator -- now you know why I am always in trouble -- 16 for the Windsor Regional Hospital. It is one of the 17 two major hospitals that amalgamated. 18 3897 The stories that the hospitals have 19 have a rippling effect all over the tri-county area. 20 Quite often the hospitals are in partnerships with 21 those hospitals across the border, especially with 22 9-1-1. All our hospitals were under high alert just in 23 case we were needed across the border. 24 3898 Having said that, our partnership 25 with NewWI and the way they cover our stories has been
1 absolutely amazing. I don't thing the word "no" is in 2 their vocabulary. I am not sure. I should ask Don 3 Mumford -- he is sitting there looking at me -- whether 4 they ever say "no". 5 3899 I don't expect they are going to say 6 no to any of our requests in the future. They won't 7 because they have to deal with me at some point. 8 3900 They cover all the stories to the 9 best of their ability, very well. 10 3901 Windsor as a community is very close 11 knit. If you are working at the hospital, you also 12 meet the same people at the Chamber of Commerce. You 13 also meet the same people at the Rotary, as well as 14 when you are going to the washroom in the local 15 theatres. You meet the same people three or four times 16 a day. 17 3902 When we meet our newscasters, it 18 feels good because we have developed a relationship 19 with them, and they have made us a priority in the 20 community. 21 3903 One of the earliest best stories I 22 think that they covered really well was when the Jacob 23 Creutzfeldt disaster struck the Windsor area. A local 24 doctor, a neurosurgeon, had operated and part of the 25 cells in the brain they discovered with this disease.
1 NewWI was on the spot covering from the revelation of 2 the issue to telling the viewers what to look for, not 3 to be afraid of hospital procedures; to deal with the 4 problem to the final diagnosis. It was a total 5 package. 6 3904 There was panic in the community. 7 Along with the Windsor District Health Council, they 8 were able to cover all the aspects of that particular 9 disease situation, as well as do other community things 10 that they were involved in. 11 3905 Without this coverage we would be 12 really lost, because we would not be able to reach the 13 thousands of people in the community, whether it be in 14 Windsor, Sarnia, Chatham or any of those local areas. 15 3906 Our area is very important because we 16 also are a very large industrial area. We are the 17 automotive capital of the world. We are the tool and 18 dye making capital of the world and the stories that 19 those generate. 20 3907 In the future, pretty close by, we 21 have coming the medical school that is going to be 22 established in Windsor. We have the Pan-American Games 23 for those of you who know have been slated for Windsor 24 with the partnership of the University of Windsor. 25 3908 So there are a lot of new stories
1 that are being generated. That is very near and dear 2 to Windsorites. 3 3909 I sincerely hope that their request 4 for the renewal of the licence will be granted. 5 3910 I also understand, sitting here all 6 day, there was the whole debate about flexibility. For 7 me, I am not surprised that if they said they would do 8 more for us with a reduced number of hours. I don't 9 suspect that they are going to change the local 10 programming, for the simple reason that flexibility can 11 mean a restructuring of the services and the way they 12 provide and not necessarily cuts. 13 3911 In my past life I used to work for 14 the government, and I realized very quickly that 15 flexibility didn't necessarily mean cuts; it just meant 16 you got rid of the old computer and had new systems 17 installed. 18 3912 So I am not concerned about that. I 19 know that they will keep up their commitment to the 20 community in Windsor. 21 3913 Thank you. 22 3914 MS VIGNEUX: Hello. I am Mariella 23 Vigneux. I am with the Grey Bruce Health Unit. You 24 may know that health unit better because of the 25 coverage in Walkerton. We were the health unit
1 responsible for managing the outbreak. Dr. Murray 2 McQuigge was our Medical Officer of Health and has 3 since retired. 4 3915 Our public health inspectors and 5 public health nurses were deeply involved and are still 6 involved in that outbreak and the repercussions. 7 3916 As a public health unit, we are one 8 of 37 in Ontario. Our mission statement is to prevent 9 disease, promote healthy lifestyles and protect the 10 community from hazards. Whereas Aruna is involved with 11 people who enter the hospital for care, we are in the 12 business to prevent people from entering the hospital 13 and to keep the community healthy. 14 3917 For that, we get less than 2 per cent 15 of the health system budget. I am talking to the wrong 16 people, I know. 17 3918 I think you should understand the 18 area that our health unit covers. It is Grey and Bruce 19 County. That means an area larger than Prince Edward 20 Island, with a population as low as about 153,000 21 people. 22 3919 Fifty-four per cent of those people 23 are rural. A large degree of isolation can occur in 24 that type of a community, particularly with the 25 Mennonite community. There are several Mennonite
1 communities. 2 3920 We have an above average number of 3 elderly people, and we have a below average literacy 4 rate. 5 3921 I drove eight hours to get here for 6 five minutes of your time, because our health unit on 7 its small budget thought it was important enough that 8 you hear that for us having a station like The NewNX is 9 not just a "nice to have"; it is actually essential for 10 us to get our messages out. 11 3922 I would like to use Walkerton as an 12 example. 13 3923 As you know, the number of ill 14 increased to a total of 2300 people. The number of 15 people who died was seven. And that was all due to an 16 unexpected E. coli outbreak in a municipal water 17 system. 18 3924 We know at the health unit, and we 19 feel strongly that we managed to contain the spread of 20 secondary infection and the number of HUS cases -- that 21 is the killer of E. coli in renal failure. We managed 22 to contain that outbreak and the spread of the 23 infection because of the good coverage that we received 24 -- not simply The NewNX, although The NewNX was the 25 only television station to appear at the first media
1 conference. For that we were grateful. And that does 2 save lives. 3 3925 Getting our messages out is not just 4 an airy fairy thing. It means the reduction of 5 illness, the reduction of injuries and the number of 6 deaths. There is proof of that in the pudding with 7 Walkerton. When we started to see the hundreds and 8 hundreds of people ill, we projected the rate of 9 secondary infection, and we anticipated, based on the 10 history of E. coli, that there would be 12 per cent 11 spread of infection from one person to the other. We 12 managed to contain that to 3 per cent. 13 3926 I don't think anyone has ever really 14 told that story. 15 3927 We restricted the number of HUS 16 cases. It could have ranged from 2 per cent to as high 17 as 15 per cent. We kept it to 2 per cent. We feel 18 that is because of the coverage we received because our 19 messages went out. We told the families that their 20 children had to be tested every two days, blood tests 21 if the kids were under five. We told them not to use 22 anti-diarrheals, no antibiotics, to boil their water 23 for five minutes, to use chlorine water solutions to 24 wash with. 25 3928 It was the great coverage that got
1 those messages out that was partially why we managed to 2 contain the secondary spread of infection. 3 3929 Walkerton doesn't happen every day, 4 but there are many emergency situations where we need 5 immediate local coverage. 6 3930 The one I am really fussing with 7 these days is -- and you probably have not heard a 8 whole lot about it. The World Health Organization and 9 Health Canada have all the health units now working to 10 prevent -- we can't prevent it, but working to be 11 prepared for pandemic influenza. 12 3931 Pandemic means a majority of the 13 world population will be infected with a new, unknown 14 virus. We will not have antivirals and vaccines ready 15 for months after people contract this. So two-thirds 16 of the world population will be struck; one-third will 17 be critically ill. 18 3932 We are planning for that now, and 19 thank goodness we have a member, a reporter of The 20 NewNX on our communications subcommittee, which I am 21 chairing. 22 3933 We have bioterrorism since September 23 11th. We have had four cases of scares in our area 24 alone. 25 3934 The big one that really worries our
1 public health inspectors are the meningitis outbreaks. 2 We have had The NewNX work with us on that in the past. 3 3935 We have the Bruce Nuclear Power 4 Station in our area. 5 3936 We have stacks of food alerts and 6 food recalls that come in daily to our health unit. At 7 any moment one of those could become a large food 8 recall. 9 3937 So whether it be an international 10 story or a local, we need to have the local guys there 11 fast to get on to the repercussions, the things that 12 happen as a spin-off of whatever the emergency is. 13 3938 It is not just the emergencies. We 14 have a lot of ho-hum information that we get out to the 15 public that you would normally dismiss, but they are 16 actually preventing illnesses and deaths. 17 3939 If you think about some of the work 18 that we do, West Nile virus, AIDS, racoon rabies, 19 immunization. We have eradicated all those diseases, 20 but we have to keep telling people immunization works. 21 3940 MR. LEBEL: Ms Vigneux, I'm sorry, 22 your time is up. 23 3941 MS VIGNEUX: Thank you. I just 24 wanted to wrap up by saying we need strong, 25 independent, profitable television stations --
1 profitable so they can afford to tell our story -- and 2 locally, geographically dispersed radio stations like 3 The NewNX. 4 3942 Thank you. 5 3943 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 6 3944 Commissioner Wylie. 7 3945 COMMISSIONER WYLIE: I just wanted to 8 warn Ms Koushik that she may indeed get into trouble to 9 have told my colleagues and I that the CHUM people are 10 people who can't say no. 11 3946 MS KOUSHIK: Madam Commissioner, you 12 may then have to deal with me. 13 --- Laughter / Rires 14 3947 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You may have 15 met your match. 16 3948 MS KOUSHIK: Possibly. I was a past 17 Human Rights officer. 18 3949 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: I have a 19 question for the Health Unit. 20 3950 What you are saying I think is 21 extremely important, and I would like your view 22 globally. I appreciate your comments with respect to 23 your experiences in Grey Bruce. 24 3951 Have you had discussions with 25 colleagues outside other urban areas across the country
1 about what is happening with respect to television 2 service in smaller communities, radio service, and the 3 ability or challenges in getting the message out about 4 some of the issues you raised. 5 3952 Do you know? 6 3953 MS VIGNEUX: I am actually meeting 7 with four communications representatives from health 8 units around the Georgian Bay area next week, I think 9 it is. They generally have local television they can 10 use. 11 3954 The problem with health units is 12 because our budget is so low, we can't afford to make 13 PSAs. We can't get prime time. We have to rely on the 14 reporters showing up, and in our area they have been 15 great. 16 3955 Is that what you are getting at? 17 3956 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Kind of. I am 18 from British Columbia, and I know that throughout the 19 interior in northern British Columbia and other more 20 remote parts of the country this is increasingly 21 becoming an issue, the service to these communities. 22 3957 I had not really thought about it in 23 quite the context that you raised this morning. It has 24 really flagged something for me that I think is really 25 important.
1 3958 MS VIGNEUX: I know we had one 2 television station that recently pulled the only 3 reporter for our area. He is now a freelance 4 videographer. That was difficult for us to lose that. 5 3959 I think we have to have these 6 stations profitable so that they can afford to do what 7 they are doing in these remote areas. A population of 8 153,000 may not seem important, but because they are so 9 isolated they need to have television. 10 3960 And low literate groups or elderly, 11 people who are visual learners, need to have 12 television. So it benefits all of us here to make sure 13 that the issues of public health are covered. 14 3961 I think I am deviating from your 15 point. 16 3962 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Yes, you are 17 absolutely right. I appreciate very much your being 18 here. It just flagged something for me. 19 3963 Thank you very much. 20 3964 MS VIGNEUX: You are welcome. 21 3965 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 22 much, ladies. 23 3966 Mr. Secretary. 24 3967 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 25 3968 The next appearing intervenor will be
1 via telephone. We will hear Mrs. Popint AuYeung. 2 3969 MS AUYEUNG: I don't want any 3 disruption. Okay? 4 3970 MR. LEBEL: Fine. Mrs. AuYeung, I 5 believe you were speaking to your children in the car 6 with you? 7 3971 MRS. AUYEUNG: Yes. 8 --- Laughter / Rires 9 3972 MR. LEBEL: You have ten minutes to 10 make your presentation. Go ahead. 11 INTERVENTION 12 3973 MRS. AUYEUNG: Hello? Can you hear 13 me? 14 3974 MR. LEBEL: Yes, I can. Can you hear 15 me? 16 3975 MRS. AUYEUNG: Barely. 17 3976 MR. LEBEL: We hear you clearly, so 18 go ahead. You have ten minutes to make your 19 presentation. 20 3977 MRS. AUYEUNG: All right. 21 3978 Good evening, Mr. Chairman and 22 Members of the Commission. I am speaking in support of 23 CHUM's broadcast licence renewal application. My name 24 is Popint AuYeung. I am a producer and a director in 25 Vancouver who has been working in the film and TV
1 industry for over 20 years. 2 3979 Also, I am on the Steering Committee 3 for the Academy of Canadian Cinema and Television in 4 B.C. and was the Vice-President of the Asian-Canadian 5 Writers Workshop, which is an organization that fosters 6 and supports Asian-Canadian writers. 7 3980 As a long-time member of the film and 8 TV community in British Columbia, I am aware of the 9 areas of under representation in the industry and have 10 always tried to do my part to make sure that all 11 communities are fairly served. 12 3981 It is estimated that 30 per cent of 13 B.C.'s population is of a visible ethnic group, and 50 14 per cent of the students in Vancouver claim a language 15 other than English as their first language. 16 3982 Despite this multicultural reality, 17 our local programming does not reflect this landscape. 18 Most broadcasters have not made culturally diverse, 19 non-news programming a priority. There is no 20 proportional representation on TV. 21 3983 Is there a lack of writers, actors, 22 filmmakers in this community, then? Absolutely not. 23 3984 Let me use the Asian community as an 24 example. 25 3985 I compiled the Asia-Canada Creative
1 Directory for Telefilm Canada three years ago. It 2 lists most of the Asian-Canadian film and TV 3 professionals in this country. Many of them are well 4 established and dedicated writers and filmmakers 5 struggling to find a place in our industry. They came 6 to British Columbia with extensive credits and 7 experience but unfortunately are denied the opportunity 8 to do what they are trained to do best because of lack 9 of support. 10 3986 There is a huge untapped 11 Asian-Canadian talent pool in this province. They have 12 been waiting for a long time for a place like CKVU to 13 share their visions and stories. 14 3987 Since CHUM has made its presence in 15 B.C., local ethnic filmmakers like myself feel like our 16 prayers are beginning to be answered. 17 3988 CHUM has been making dramatic efforts 18 to change the look of mainstream programming in Ontario 19 for some time now and has finally brought it visionary 20 objectives here. 21 3989 For example, CKVU has launched 22 "Vancouver's Other Stories", a writing, producing, 23 directing initiative created exclusively for visible 24 minorities. This is an opportunity we have been 25 waiting for, and I believe it is the first of its kind
1 in B.C. 2 3990 Its purpose is to discover strong 3 quality dramatic narratives by local ethnic filmmakers 4 that CKVU can produce and broadcast. Their work will 5 have a guaranteed broadcast on CKVU and other CHUM 6 stations across the country. The exposure is 7 invaluable to the filmmakers. 8 3991 In addition, CKVU, in partnership 9 with Praxis Centre for screenwriters, has developed the 10 CHUM Television Cultural Diversity Fellowship, a 11 writing initiative which will nurture new and emerging 12 screenwriters. Those who are selected will be offered 13 the opportunity to workshop the script with experienced 14 writers and other industry professionals. 15 3992 CKVU understands that a good script 16 is the foundation for a good program. We in the 17 industry agree that, in general, there is a lack of 18 good screenwriters. I am excited about a story that 19 will come out of this initiative. 20 3993 This commitment sets CKVU apart from 21 other broadcasters in B.C. It understands the 22 importance to provide ethnic Canadian filmmakers the 23 chance to not only share the stories to the related 24 communities but to the rest of B.C. and Canada, as 25 well.
1 3994 The end result of this initiative can 2 shed the light on the filmmakers' cultures to a wider 3 audience, therefore fostering harmony and understanding 4 of Canada's multicultural landscape. 5 3995 In addition, CKVU is helping the 6 filmmakers acquire their film credits and build a 7 portfolio so that they can advance their careers. 8 3996 CKVU's new initiatives will also help 9 ethnic Canadian teenagers to have role models who 10 reflect their identity. They will see images that they 11 can relate to and hear stories that speak to them. So 12 often the regular mainstream programs leave them 13 feeling excluded and insignificant. Or when an Asian 14 story is brought to screen, it is often presented from 15 a white point of view. The teens are left feeling 16 either empty or misrepresented. 17 3997 Stories told to them by members from 18 their own communities is a healthy and powerful way for 19 these teens to regain and celebrate their identities. 20 3998 I want to commend CKVU for 21 acknowledging that it is does not know all the needs of 22 the ethnic communities in B.C., but it has taken steps 23 to ensure that we are heard and that, together, we can 24 grow. 25 3999 I attended a community meeting
1 conducted by CKVU which was well attended and 2 represented. The panel listened to our every concern 3 with sincerity. I am encouraged to learn that CKVU 4 intends to hold this meeting on a regular basis, 5 because it gives the station a chance to hear if it is 6 meeting the commitments they have made to CRTC and to 7 the communities. 8 4000 These meetings will give us a chance 9 to hold CKVU accountable. This measure taken by CKVU 10 truly shows its commitment to becoming a platform for 11 the diverse voices in B.C. 12 4001 My experiences with CHUM have been 13 very encouraging, productive and extremely supportive. 14 4002 Last July I approached The NewVI, a 15 CHUM station in Victoria, for assistance in developing 16 a documentary about a non-profit youth organization in 17 Vancouver, and received an offer of assistance in a 18 matter of days. 19 4003 A few months ago I approached CHUM 20 for development assistance of a feature film based on 21 the Canadian best seller "The Concubine's Children" by 22 Denise Chong. CKVU expressed interest immediately. 23 But they didn't just offer me an agreement and walk 24 away. They spent time in giving me many creative and 25 valuable suggestions.
1 4004 I believe that CKVU is committed to 2 my project because it sees the importance in this 3 compelling true story about the early struggles of 4 Chinese Canadians. 5 4005 I strongly believe that CHUM has met 6 the television needs of diverse communities in British 7 Columbia and will continue to further the commitment 8 and break new ground with the broadcast licence 9 renewal. 10 4006 Thank you. 11 4007 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner 12 Grauer. 13 4008 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Hello, Ms 14 AuYeung. It is Cindy Grauer speaking. I just want to 15 thank you very much for participating. I know how 16 difficult it is to do this over the phone. 17 4009 I am so thrilled that finally you are 18 able to make the "The Concubine's Children". 19 4010 MS AUYEUNG: I am very grateful to 20 CHUM. 21 4011 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thanks for 22 participating. 23 4012 MS AUYEUNG: Thank you. 24 4013 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 25 4014 We will adjourn now and resume with
1 final reply at 9:30 tomorrow morning. 2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2205 to 3 resume on Wednesday, May 8, 2002 at 0900 / 4 L'audience est ajournée à 2205, pour reprendre 5 le mercredi 8 mai 2002 à 0900
- Date modified: