ARCHIVED - Transcript / Transcription - Gatineau, Quebec - 2002-05-09
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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES SUBJECT / SUJET: RECONSIDERATION OF DECISION CRTC 2001-757 RÉÉXAMEN DE LA DECISION CRTC 2001-757 HELD AT: TENUE À: Conference Centre Centre de Conférences Portage IV Portage IV Outaouais Room Salle Outaouais Gatineau, Quebec Gatineau (Québec) May 9, 2002 Le 9 mai 2002 Volume 1
Transcripts In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of Contents. However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the public hearing. Transcription Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience publique ainsi que la table des matières. Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des télécommunications canadiennes Transcript / Transcription RECONSIDERATION OF DECISION CRTC 2001-757 RÉÉXAMEN DE LA DECISION CRTC 2001-757 BEFORE / DEVANT: Charles Dalfen Chairperson / Président Joan Pennefather Commissioner / Conseillère David McKendry Commissioner / Conseiller ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS: William Howard Legal Counsel / Conseiller juridique Jane Britten Hearing Coordinator / Coordonnatrice de l'audience Pierre LeBel Secretary / Secrétaire HELD AT: TENUE À: Conference Centre Centre de Conférences Portage IV Portage IV Outaouais Room Salle Outaouais Gatineau, Quebec Gatineau (Québec) May 9, 2002 Le 9 mai 2002 Volume 1
TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES PAGE / PARA PHASE I PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR World Television Network/Le Réseau Télémonde Inc. 5 /26
1 Gatineau, Quebec / Gatineau (Québec) 2 --- Upon commencing on Thursday, May 9, 2002 at 1705 / 3 L'audience débute le jeudi 9 mai 2002 à 1705 4 1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, 5 ladies and gentlemen. 6 2 My name is Charles Dalfen and I am 7 the Chairman of the CRTC. 8 3 With me are my colleagues, 9 Commissioners Joan Pennefather and David McKendry. 10 Commission staff assisting us at this hearing are the 11 Coordinator, Jane Britten, Legal Counsel, William 12 Howard and Hearing Secretary, Pierre LeBel. 13 4 On December 14th, 2001, the 14 Commission rendered Decision CRTC 2001-757, in which it 15 authorized World Television Network/Le Réseau 16 Télémonde, otherwise known as WTM, to operate a 17 Category 2 national specialty television service for 18 digital distribution. 19 5 La décision a également refusé la 20 demande de la requérante visant une distribution 21 analogique par câble garantie. 22 6 Le 13 mars 2002, la gouverneure en 23 conseil, conformément à l'article 28(3) de la Loi sur 24 la radiodiffusion, a renvoyé la décision au Conseil 25 pour réexamen et nouvelle audience.
1 7 The Order-in-Council, P.C. 2002-330, 2 stated that: 3 "It is material to the 4 reconsideration and hearing that 5 the Commission fully assess the 6 appropriate options for the 7 carriage of Broadcasting 8 Distribution Undertakings of 9 services that aspire to reflect 10 and connect Canada's 11 multicultural communities to 12 broader audiences". 13 8 On March 26th, 2002, the Commission 14 invited the applicant to submit any comment or 15 amendment it wished to make to its original 16 application. The applicant did so on April 8th, 2002. 17 9 Pursuant to section 28, paragraph 3 18 of the Broadcasting Act, where a decision is referred 19 back to the CRTC, the Commission must reconsider the 20 matter and, after a hearing, may choose among a number 21 of alternatives, including rescinding the decision, or 22 confirming the decision, either with or without change, 23 variation or alteration. 24 10 This hearing should last about a day 25 and a half. Cellphones and beepers must be turned off
1 when you are in the hearing room as they are an 2 unwelcome distraction for participants and 3 Commissioners. 4 11 And now, before we begin, I will turn 5 things over to the Secretary, Mr. Pierre LeBel, to 6 explain the process we will be following. 7 12 Monsieur LeBel? 8 13 MR. LEBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 9 14 Before we begin, just a few 10 housekeeping matters. 11 15 First, I would like to indicate that 12 the Commission's examination room is located in the 13 Papineau Room, adjacent to the hearing room. The 14 public files of the application being considered at 15 this hearing can be examined there. 16 16 Secondly, there is a verbatim 17 transcript of this hearing being taken by the court 18 reporter at the table to my left at the centre. If you 19 have any questions about how to obtain all or parts of 20 this transcript, please approach the court reporter 21 during a break for information. 22 17 Finally, if you want to have messages 23 taken, we will be happy to post them outside the public 24 examination room. The phone number in our public 25 examination room is (819) 593-3168. If you have any
1 further questions, don't hesitate to contact me or the 2 examination room officer and we will be more than 3 pleased to assist where we can. 4 18 And now, Mr. Chairman, we will 5 proceed with the item on the agenda which is an 6 application by World Television Network/Le Réseau 7 Télémonde Inc. for a licence to carry on national 8 specialty television services dedicated to providing 9 news, public affairs, film and entertainment 10 programming from around the world. 11 19 We will proceed as follows. 12 20 First, we will hear the applicant's 13 presentation. Questions from the Commission will 14 follow this presentation. 15 21 In Phase II, the appearing 16 intervenors listed in the agenda will be granted ten 17 minutes to present their intervention and there may be 18 questions from the Commission following each 19 presentation. 20 22 In the last phase, the applicant will 21 be provided an opportunity to respond to the 22 interventions submitted to its application. 23 23 Ten minutes will be granted for this 24 reply and again questions may follow. 25 24 Now, Mr. Chairman, we will hear the
1 presentation by World Television Network/Le Réseau 2 Télémonde Inc., and I will ask Mr. Iannuzzi to 3 introduce his colleagues. 4 25 You have 20 minutes to make your 5 presentation. 6 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 7 26 MR. IANNUZZI: Thank you very much. 8 27 Mr. Chairman, Members of the Panel, 9 CRTC Hearing Manager, Legal Counsel and Analysts, 10 Ladies and Gentlemen. 11 28 May I first introduce the World 12 Télémonde programming team. At the table directly 13 facing you: Howard Bernstein and Lon Appleby will be 14 in charge of our programming, particularly our Canadian 15 multicultural programming. 16 29 You have seen their work on almost 17 every Canadian network. This year they will have six 18 series running on Canadian television. They have 19 another 15 in production and concept development. 20 30 Michael McHale, Vice-President, 21 previously at CHUM-CITY and Alliance Communications, 22 currently at the cutting edge of technology with 23 Telbotics. 24 31 Firdaus Kharas, Ottawa-based 25 producer, with more than 1,000 hours of successful
1 program production in both Canada and Asia is available 2 to WTM. 3 32 Marcel Clémont, franco-Manitobain, 4 producteur indépendant, avec une expérience passée à 5 titre de producteur exécutif tant à l'Office national 6 du film qu'à Radio-Canada. 7 33 Bill Brooks, a Principal in BIGBOARD 8 Marketing, Vancouver. 9 34 And now may I direct your attention 10 to our management team at this table. 11 35 I am Dan Iannuzzi, President of WTM, 12 a founding partner in CITY-TV, founder of CFMT, Channel 13 47, publisher of Corriere Canadese in Italian; Correo 14 Canadiense in Spanish; Nove Ilhas in Portuguese; and 15 the Tandem and Town Crier papers in English. 16 36 Our Senior Vice-President, Kerry 17 Johnston, a former senior federal public servant 18 responsible for multiculturalism. He is an experienced 19 executive who has led several organizations through the 20 changes necessary to remain relevant to Quebec and 21 Canadian society. 22 37 Doreen Iannuzzi, Director and 23 Corporate Secretary at the Town Crier community 24 newspaper and WTM's Hearing Coordinator. 25 38 Dr. Ken Marchant, our legal counsel,
1 one of Canada's most experienced public lawyers. He 2 has appeared before the Commission on ethnic 3 applications, pay-TV applications for CFMT, Rogers, 4 CanWest Global, and now for World Télémonde. 5 39 Mr. Chairman, a most distinguished 6 film and television producer, one of only two people to 7 receive a lifetime achievement award from the Banff 8 Television Festival, a producer of award-winning 9 programs which entertain audiences in both official 10 languages, our Chair, Rock Demers. 11 40 Rock? 12 41 M. ROCK DEMERS: Monsieur le 13 Président, Conseillers, mesdames et messieurs. 14 42 La gouverneure générale en conseil a 15 demandé à ce que la décision 2001-757 soit réexaminée 16 parce qu'elle déroge aux objectifs énoncés par notre 17 Parlement dans la Loi sur la radiodiffusion. 18 43 Les arguments sur lesquels doit 19 s'appuyer cette réexamination sont énoncés dans les 20 pétitions adressées au Cabinet, dans la soumission de 21 Télémonde, dans les interventions en notre défaveur 22 ainsi que nos réponses à ces interventions. 23 44 Nous apprécions à sa juste valeur le 24 temps que vous avez dû mettre à étudier tous ces 25 documents vous permettant ainsi d'être en mesure
1 d'exprimer un choix clair. 2 45 D'importants intérêts dans 3 l'industrie du câble et de la télédiffusion en la 4 partie anglophone de notre pays s'opposent à ce que la 5 licence demandée par Télémonde lui soit accordée sur 6 mode analogique. 7 46 Par contre, pas une seule opposition 8 n'est venue de sociétés basées au Québec opérant en ce 9 domaine. 10 47 Télémonde a obtenu le support de 11 députés de l'Assemblée nationale du Québec, de députés 12 d'autres législatures provinciales, de députés du 13 Parlement canadien, de syndicats de travailleurs, 14 d'organisations multiculturelles tant régionales que 15 nationales, de producteurs indépendants, de nombreux 16 individus provenant d'origines culturelles très 17 diverses. 18 48 Différentes approches s'offrent au 19 Conseil. Nos opposants vous invitent à ne considérer 20 que certains aspects des politiques du CRTC afin de 21 cantonner Télémonde hors du domaine de la diffusion 22 analogique. 23 49 Vous n'avez pas été sans remarquer 24 que peu de nos opposants se sont référés dans leur 25 argumentation à notre Loi sur la radiodiffusion.
1 50 Nous apprécierions beaucoup que votre 2 décision soit basée sur cette loi telle qu'amendée en 3 1991 de sorte qu'elle reflète l'évolution de notre 4 pays. 5 51 Télémonde tient particulièrement à ce 6 que le contenu des sections 3, 5 et 9 soient 7 considérées dans leur intégralité. 8 52 J'aimerais conclure en disant que je 9 ne suis ici que pour une seule raison, parce que 10 Télémonde n'est pas un canal ethnique. Le concept 11 présenté par Télémonde fait en sorte que ce que nous 12 irons chercher dans la production italienne, polonaise, 13 chinoise, soit celle qui intéresse l'ensemble des 14 Canadiens et non pas celle qui intéresse de façon 15 spécifique les Italiens, les Polonais et les Chinois 16 qui habitent au Canada. 17 53 Merci. 18 54 MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, in our 19 reply to all the opposing interventions, we have 20 demonstrated how the demographics of Canada have 21 changed. 22 55 It's rather dramatic. By 1996, 37 23 per cent of all seniors in this country, 43 per cent of 24 adults, and 50 per cent of youth under 25 identified 25 themselves as from a cultural origin other than
1 British, French or Canadian. 2 56 The 2001 Census numbers will be even 3 more dramatic and they will out early next year. 4 57 There is published research on what 5 this means to the daily life of Canadians: 82 per cent 6 or more live in neighbourhoods with people of different 7 cultural heritages; more than two-thirds of Canadian 8 workplaces have people from different heritages; three 9 quarters of Canadians have friends they see regularly 10 who come from different cultural backgrounds. 11 58 Not only has our population changed, 12 but our Broadcasting Act has changed also. It changed 13 so much so that 21 of the 29 broadcast policy 14 objectives to which WTM will make a contribution did 15 not exist until 1991. 16 59 Many of these new objectives relate 17 specifically to our linguistic duality, and our 18 multiculturalism. WTM responds to both. 19 60 MR. IANNUZZI: Mr. Chairman, World 20 Télémonde is truly a Canadian multicultural service. 21 It's a 50/50 service -- 50 per cent Canadian 22 multicultural, 50 per cent international 23 multicultural -- chosen from a Canadian perspective. 24 61 It is a mirror on our multicultural 25 selves, particularly in evening programs like "Day and
1 Night", "Mainstreets", "Cabaret" and "Modern Icons". 2 It is a prism for the full spectrum of world events and 3 world programming seen through Canadian eyes, seen 4 through Canadian eyes in our nightly current affairs 5 program, "WorldJournal" and in the 7:00 p.m. time slot 6 preferred by Canadians for news and current affairs. 7 62 Seen through Canadian eyes in 8 international programming selected for a diverse 9 Canadian audience. We have given specific examples in 10 the material filed with you, examples in film, 11 documentaries, and variety programming. Our 12 programming team can give you more on these categories. 13 63 WTM programming is accessible to all, 14 including the hearing impaired, through 15 audience-friendly subtitles in both of Canada's 16 official languages. 17 64 Mr. Chairman, it is also important to 18 stress what World Télémonde is not. It is not an 19 ethnic service, as our Chair just said. WTM will have 20 no "ethnic" programming directed to particular 21 culturally or racially defined groups. WTM is not just 22 an outward-looking service, a world programming 23 service. We are committed to reflecting Canadian 24 diversity as a primary mission. 25 65 But, equally, WTM is not just an
1 inward-looking service. Canadians are interested in 2 other places and other cultures, not just themselves. 3 This is one of the reasons Canadians are so well 4 regarded by others around the world. 5 66 Mr. Chairman, we are ready for your 6 questions, but l do have one request. At the beginning 7 of the last hearing, Commissioner Cardozo said, and I 8 quote: 9 "Feel free to answer any 10 questions that we might not 11 have asked. This is really your 12 chance to give us all the 13 information you think we need in 14 order to make the decision". 15 67 Mr. Chairman, we do have a list of 16 points which are important to us. Since we have been 17 brief -- you will admit -- may we have a very few 18 minutes at the end of the questions to note any which 19 may have not been raised in your questions, or which we 20 would like to clarify? 21 68 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 22 69 The answer to your question is yes. 23 70 MR. IANNUZZI: Thank you, 24 Mr. Chairman. 25 71 THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess, as I said
1 in the opening statement, that we are obliged, after 2 reconsidering a hearing, to consider the matter and to 3 choose among a number of alternatives and I concluded 4 recision of the decision as one. Another is confirming 5 the decision, either with or without change, variation 6 or alteration. 7 72 You are, of course, asking us to 8 confirm the decision with the alteration that you in a 9 sense have analog carriage, if that is your position. 10 73 MR. IANNUZZI: We do appreciate the 11 licence. That part, we do. 12 74 THE CHAIRPERSON: Right. 13 75 MR. IANNUZZI: It's the carriage, of 14 course. 15 76 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am going to ask 16 you one or two general questions and turn the 17 questioning over to my colleagues. 18 77 In trying to help us reach the 19 decision, I guess you would recognize that in order for 20 us to implement the Broadcasting Act in this instance 21 that if we came to the conclusion that a service such 22 as yours might be a suitable service for carriage on 23 analog, that fairness might also dictate that that 24 opportunity to provide such a service be provided to a 25 wider audience so that we could in effect choose from
1 among the best proposals for such carriage since no 2 such service is currently being carried. That would 3 follow presumably from the decision option if we went 4 down that route. 5 78 I guess I would ask you to help me 6 answer the question: Why, if we came to the conclusion 7 that such a service should be desired on analog, that 8 we not go to a procedure of calling for applications 9 and getting the best one to come forward and licensing 10 that? 11 79 MR. IANNUZZI: Before I turn this 12 over to my colleague and legal counsel here, the 13 question is, and you used the key word "in fairness". 14 To whom? To those who have not applied over the past 15 ten years once the Commission was calling for this and 16 whilst we have appeared four times before this 17 Commission? 18 80 I mean, where does fairness and where 19 does justice actually unfold in this particular thing? 20 I think that we are here, as we have been before, and 21 we are here because we feel that the Commission, on its 22 part, did licence this service. Therefore if they 23 licensed this service they must believe that this 24 service is necessary and answers a certain demand from 25 the general public, from Canadians at large.
1 81 What we are here to discuss is the 2 fairness of the second part of this whole thing: Did 3 this licence get the type of carriage that would make 4 it viable? Now, there is a whole legal question that 5 goes with this as well, and I would like to pass this 6 on to Dr. Marchant. 7 82 MR. MARCHANT: Thank you, 8 Mr. Iannuzzi, thank you, Mr. Chairman. 9 83 I endorse what Mr. Iannuzzi has just 10 said. I think that is a central issue that this type 11 of licence has been known in the industry for a long 12 time. It has been part of a public process on a number 13 of occasions. There have been multiple opportunities 14 for others to come forward and they have not. 15 84 I think it's also relevant that the 16 Governor in Council could have, under the Broadcasting 17 Act, done something different, as the Governor in 18 Council did in the case of the Vancouver multilingual 19 television, in the case of a French-language art 20 service, in the case of ethnic radio in the Greater 21 Toronto Area. It could have asked the Commission to 22 look into this category of service and report on it, 23 and that would then be the basis for a call for 24 applications which has been the approach in the three 25 examples that I have mentioned, and the Governor in
1 Council did not do that. 2 85 The Governor in Council found that 3 this decision that is before us today did derogate from 4 the Broadcasting Act and it was sent back for rehearing 5 with this licensee and this licensee alone. 6 86 I know, Mr. Chairman, this was not 7 the spirit of your question, but please redirect me if 8 I am going in a direction that is not helpful to you, 9 but your question does bring to mind certain 10 interventions and might I comment on those as well? 11 87 THE CHAIRPERSON: I was looking at 12 this in a more general way. If you think commenting 13 would be helpful, that's fine, but there will be an 14 opportunity to do that at the end of the process. 15 88 Well, you go ahead. Feel free to 16 comment. 17 89 MR. MARCHANT: Well, let me just be 18 very brief because this issue has been put on the table 19 by three very large media groups in intervention. I 20 think that raises, in the context they are raising it, 21 three important questions -- also by the Canadian 22 Association of Broadcasters. I will be very brief. 23 90 The first is I think in asking the 24 Commission to use that as a ground to rescind this 25 decision, they are, in my opinion, asking the
1 Commission to do something I don't think the Commission 2 would ever want to do which is to abuse its discretion. 3 I think that would be a totally inappropriate ground 4 for recision. 5 91 Secondly, I think it is important 6 that these are very large media conglomerates. What 7 they are asking is that an independent voice be 8 silenced so they can have an opportunity now, and they 9 have all had that opportunity, we would say. They are 10 really asking that this application be killed and the 11 opportunity be turned over to them. 12 92 Thirdly, WTM has been granted a 13 licence with conditions of licence -- a lot of 14 conditions of licence -- which are acceptable. We are 15 simply down to carriage. 16 93 I suggest that in asking that this be 17 open to a public call, the similar precedent would 18 then, I think logically, apply to any member of the 19 Canadian Association of Broadcasters, for example, who 20 came before you asking for a change in their carriage 21 status, that it should then be open to a public call 22 because it's a very different kind of thing, it could 23 be argued. I think there is a significant precedent. 24 94 So with those three brief points, I 25 would round out our stance of the issue as you put it.
1 95 I know I went a little beyond what 2 you had in mind, and I thank you for your time. 3 96 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think I have the 4 gist of your answer on the point. 5 97 Let me ask another general question 6 which is that I take it that you feel, Mr. Iannuzzi, 7 that your service is a service that quote: 8 "... aspires to reflect and 9 connect Canada's multicultural 10 communities to broader 11 audiences". 12 98 Is that correct? 13 99 MR. IANNUZZI: Absolutely. I think 14 our application, which has been in the works over the 15 decade has really built itself as being the unique and 16 prime service in dealing with the whole question of 17 multiculturalism and multicultural programming. 18 100 The confusion that has taken place 19 over the past decade has been the whole question of 20 ethnocultural programming versus multicultural and 21 using each one as a misnomer in various instances. 22 101 So yes, we are, and we firmly believe 23 that we are the prime service at this particular time 24 available and ready to go in the country and respond to 25 the demand of Canadians for the past decade.
1 102 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 2 much. 3 103 Commissioner Pennefather? 4 104 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, 5 Mr. Chairman. 6 105 Good evening to you, Mr. Iannuzzi and 7 to your panel. 8 106 My task this evening -- and we will 9 continue tomorrow because I have quite a few 10 questions -- is the programming area. So I will direct 11 my questions to you, but feel free to pass them onto 12 your programming experts and others. 13 107 It's an exercise which, pursuant to 14 the conversation we just had with the Chair, is one 15 that has that context clearly. Yes, we are here to 16 discussion carriage. Yes, there is a licence that is 17 there. 18 108 But in the context of the OiC and the 19 previous decision, I think it's important we take the 20 time to go back to review the concept itself, the 21 programming approach that you have taken and do that in 22 some detail so that we have a very good understanding 23 of why it is that you responded as you just did to the 24 Chair in terms of what this service is bringing to 25 Canadians and why you feel that it should have the
1 carriage that you have proposed and various options 2 that you have given us. 3 109 So with that, if you agree, we will 4 go through the programming concept as a whole and then 5 I would like to look at some individual programs, both 6 from the English-language point of view and the French- 7 language point of view. 8 110 As we do so, I would ask you to keep 9 in mind the answer you just gave to the Chair's 10 question. The term you used "prime" service, the term 11 you used "unique" service in today's television 12 environment. 13 111 I would ask you also to consider the 14 criterion, and that is clearly not new to you and that 15 is in dealing with the specialty service that is 16 requesting the carriage you are proposing, one of the 17 things that we will look at is that this service will 18 be of exceptional importance in fulfilling the 19 objectives of the Broadcasting Act. 20 112 So as we go through all the aspects 21 of programming, I would like to keep those bars that 22 you have set in mind because in order for us to really 23 fairly examine the appropriateness of carriage, I think 24 we should understand what it is you have in mind 25 putting on the screens of this country.
1 113 That's the general view I have. 2 114 When we discussed also the 3 Broadcasting Act, and I believe Chair Demers also 4 appropriately raised the Broadcasting Act in this 5 discussion, I know in your April 8th submission you 6 listed 29 objectives of the Act but I, for the purposes 7 of this discussion at this time, would suggest that we 8 focus on Section 3(1)(d)(iii) since, as you well said, 9 one of the major points of your submission is that this 10 is a multicultural station, multicultural service. 11 115 I would ask that we look at the 12 programs in that light, how this service would fulfil 13 the objectives of 3(1)(d)(iii), how this service will 14 fill the objectives that are mentioned in the Order-in- 15 Council, not only reflecting Canada's cultural 16 communities, but connecting Canada's cultural 17 communities. 18 116 What I have in front of me as we go 19 through these questions -- and I see you are in your 20 application book -- I am using the April 8th 21 amendments, but I also have in front of me the June 22 submission and will refer to certain descriptive 23 phrases and paragraphs you used to describe the 24 service. But in fairness, I think I will be dealing 25 mostly with the April 8th submission.
1 117 Now, I understand that in that 2 submission, in the executive summary, page ii, you say 3 that you are not changing the nature of the service as 4 described in 2001-757. Is that correct? 5 118 MR. IANNUZZI: That's correct. 6 119 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And just 7 to be clear, what you are referring to there is the 8 nature of service described in paragraph 31(a) which 9 lists the conditions of licence. 10 120 MR. IANNUZZI: I'm just trying to 11 find that page. 12 121 MR. MARCHANT: Commissioner 13 Pennefather, while he is doing that, I would say that I 14 think we did say clearly in the April 8th submission 15 that we are adopting the service description in the 16 opening paragraph of 2001-757. 17 122 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I have on 18 page ii, it says: "We wish to change the nature of 19 service in the decision", and I recognize that the 20 point is made later in the submission, Mr. Marchant. 21 123 So that's the purpose of my question, 22 in fact, is which description were you dealing with? 23 They are essentially the same, but you will understand 24 the importance of this point as I go forward. 25 124 Any problems with that comment?
1 125 MR. MARCHANT: I'm not clearly 2 understanding the distinction so that I can answer the 3 question, or so we can answer the question. 4 126 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: All right. 5 If we take the decision, there is an opening paragraph, 6 a summary paragraph, and if you go to paragraph of the 7 same decision, paragraph (a) of paragraph 31, it says: 8 The licensee will provide a national service...". 9 127 MR. MARCHANT: I do now understand. 10 128 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I am 11 taking that to be that the nature of service 12 description that you are proposing to maintain, just 13 for the record. 14 129 MR. MARCHANT: My computer is a 15 little slower -- sorry, I didn't have it right in front 16 of me. 17 130 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Paper 18 perhaps? 19 131 MR. MARCHANT: Well, good point. 20 132 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: You 21 mentioned the conditions yourself earlier in your 22 discussion with the Chair. So I think we are on the 23 same wavelength actually. 24 133 MR. MARCHANT: Yes, if you would like 25 we can bring some text back to you, but --
1 134 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: No, there 2 is no need for that. It's just to confirm that that is 3 the nature of service we are dealing with. 4 135 MR. MARCHANT: Well, there has been, 5 from our standpoint, some misunderstanding with the 6 Commission about the importance and role of our 7 Canadian multicultural programming. 8 136 So for example, in the Notice of 9 Public Hearing for this proceeding we are described 10 simply as a "world programming service" with no 11 reference to our Canadian multicultural programming 12 which is extremely important to us and the sensitivity 13 I am disclosing is to that. 14 137 I think that paragraph 31(a), I would 15 suggest, doesn't capture the description of service as 16 fully as the opening paragraph of 757. 17 138 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Fair 18 enough. 19 139 You are a little ahead of me in terms 20 of where we are heading with this question. So I 21 appreciate your point. We are going to look at 22 Canadian world programming and the balance as now 23 submitted to us. 24 140 But what is important as well is to 25 understand is that the nature of service describes this
1 proposal as a specialty service and that remains the 2 case. 3 141 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes. 4 142 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Yet at 5 other times you describe this, Mr. Iannuzzi -- and this 6 is perhaps a general comment -- as a mainstream 7 multicultural service. 8 143 Again, I quote you from the June 9 submission of the supplementary brief. You say: 10 "WTM will be the most inclusive 11 and unique of Canadian 12 services". 13 144 Is this a mainstream service or 14 speciality service? Can you tell me how we can be both 15 a mainstream service and a specialty service at the 16 same time? 17 145 MR. IANNUZZI: The term "mainstream" 18 there meant that it was a service that was to reach all 19 Canadians in that sense and it wasn't defined in a 20 narrow ethnic community sense being that that would 21 have been the narrower part of what might be call the 22 "new mainstream". So I mean that distinction, so that 23 when we talk about WTM as a service, of course, it is a 24 specialty service, but we are talking that it is a 25 service that we believe is important that it be
1 accessible to the entire "mainstream", the largest 2 audience that is available to a television broadcaster. 3 146 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Okay. 4 Just a subtlety on that. I understand the point you 5 are making "largest" perhaps in the sense of numbers, 6 but I am also interesting in knowing -- I am hearing 7 again, and you explained this at length at the June 8 hearing -- normally a specialty service is geared to a 9 niche group or a niche interest, shall we say, and at 10 the same time you are saying you are a specialty 11 service but you are reaching all Canadians, a broad 12 spectrum of society. 13 147 I think this is fundamental to what 14 you are trying to do here. 15 148 So could you just explain a little 16 further how you can both technically a specialty 17 service for the purposes of our rules and regs, if you 18 will, and at the same time what could be described, and 19 has been described by some intervenors, as a broad 20 general service, not a specialty service as such. 21 149 Could you just explain that? 22 150 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes. I think that we 23 are a specialty service in that we do have a specialty 24 in the true sense of bringing in world programming from 25 a Canadian perspective that is not available within the
1 system, and secondly, specializing in the production of 2 multicultural, truly multicultural programming that 3 today is not available in the system. 4 151 Although the Commission is calling 5 upon industry and industry is promising once again to 6 develop that particular area, right now it isn't the 7 case. We are the ones that are sitting here stating 8 that we have the capacity and the ability to produce a 9 special kind of programming that fits within the 10 system, that brings Canadians another perspective of 11 who they are, what they are, and where they are going. 12 That's where we are a "specialty", in that sense. 13 152 But to do this we need a broad sense 14 of categories in order to bring forth this particular 15 expression of the Canadian reality because it takes 16 place in all of these areas and of these program 17 categories, under our specialty, that today -- maybe 18 tomorrow will be different, but today as we sit before 19 you -- is not available and certainly is not being 20 produced by the mainstream networks. 21 153 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Do you see 22 why -- 23 154 MR. IANNUZZI: Promises, promises, 24 but right now it is not being done. 25 155 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Do you see
1 why I go after those terms a little bit though because 2 we don't want to leave them in limbo. We want to -- 3 156 MR. IANNUZZI: And I appreciate that. 4 I appreciated the question because it gave the 5 opportunity in order to express exactly what we believe 6 we are specialists at in that sense. 7 157 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Well, 8 let's get to that programming then and look at what's 9 on the screen, in fact. 10 158 The April 8th submission makes some 11 changes to the programming schedule and the programming 12 content. In fact, if I am correct, you have dropped 13 some programs because you said they are available now 14 in the system. So I think it's fair to keep in mind 15 that you can see a little bit that I want to go after 16 this point that you are unique again and again because 17 it behooves us today to really discuss at length why 18 this is an exceptional and unique service, as you have 19 said. 20 159 So in looking at the April 8th 21 submission, I see you removed some of the programs from 22 the Canada list because they are available. Those that 23 remain I would like to look at with you in some detail. 24 160 Just generally speaking, this new 25 schedule has also shifted some of the Canadian content
1 into the six o'clock to eight o'clock, right up to the 2 nine o'clock timeframe, if I am correct. 3 161 Previously your schedule was in the 4 evening hours, although 50 per cent Canadian content, 5 prime time was the world programming. If you agree we 6 will call it the world programming. 7 162 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes. 8 163 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And you 9 have made a change in that regard. 10 164 What do you think the reaction of 11 your supporters will be because it was my impression 12 that you have changed the nature of the service, not in 13 the legal sense, but the concept itself has shifted, 14 that it is less, and I quote: 15 "A service about the wide world 16 of television". 17 165 A service which you yourself called: 18 "The picture of the global 19 society and the peoples that 20 inhabit it". 21 166 That it's something else now. 22 167 Would you agree with me on that? 23 168 MR. IANNUZZI: No. 24 --- Laughter / Rires 25 169 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I know,
1 but could you explain please? 2 170 MR. IANNUZZI: My job is not here to 3 disagree with you. It's to agree with you in just 4 about every instance that would lead us to come back to 5 my opening statement that this is an exceptional 6 service. 7 171 When we looked at our application, 8 you have to appreciate the fact that this group has, 9 over the past -- I won't even say decade because it 10 makes me feel older than I am. The fact is over the 11 last three applications, we have always had to look at 12 what are the changes that the Commission has brought 13 in, what has been licensed, both on analog and in the 14 specialty areas of digital, all of this coming in are 15 certain changes that as businesspeople, because this is 16 a business, we have to look at. What makes it better 17 or worse for us to come forward? 18 172 During this last instance, the 19 Commission did make some reference to the fact that 20 within the prime-time area, and particular peak, that 21 we were -- how should I say -- lacking. Now, that was 22 part of a change in answering to the Commission's 23 request or identifying a particular lack within the 24 application, although, when we look at it, that that 25 didn't really apply to specialty services. That whole
1 question of peak, in some instances, belongs to 2 mainstream networks. 3 173 So we did this in order to show that 4 we are able to, we have the flexibility within our 5 schedule. It's not a question of satisfying supporters 6 that we are talking about the wide world of television. 7 Surely, we are doing that. We haven't changed that. 8 Fifty per cent of our schedule is world programming, 9 selected, as we keep saying, under a Canadian 10 perspective. 11 174 The viewers will still get that. We 12 moved some of that out of prime in order to make room 13 for what we believe -- and you will hear that from our 14 programming people shortly -- a block of time within 15 peak time that is good, solid and unique Canadian 16 multicultural programming. 17 175 So that's why there is a change 18 there, not because there was anything wrong with the 19 schedule before because as a specialty that schedule 20 stood up. Otherwise we wouldn't have been "licensed" 21 had that not been there. But the Commission is 22 bringing that to our attention, good, bad or 23 indifferent. We responded and said: Why not? We can 24 do that. If that is what the Commission believes 25 multicultural programming should be as far as viewers
1 are available and accessible to Canadians, if that's in 2 the time period, why can't we do it? Yes, we can do it 3 and it still made a lot of sense. We were still able 4 to keep 50 per cent in prime and 50 per cent in peak 5 time, 54 per cent all overall. So we have a balanced 6 schedule at this point. 7 176 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Well, 8 obviously I am more interested in what you think is a 9 good multicultural service and why you made those 10 choices and why you feel that it would still be the 11 kind of service that you say is unique and exceptional. 12 177 When you look at the Canadian 13 programs that you have proposed to us, both throughout 14 the day and in prime, you have called them, in fact, 15 the backbone of the broadcast day on page 23, and I 16 quote: 17 "We are so committed to our 18 Canadian contents that Canadian 19 programs will kick off prime 20 time and peak time seven days a 21 week". 22 178 They will kick it off, but they will 23 not occupy that prime peak time. Am I correct? 24 179 MR. IANNUZZI: They will not? 25 180 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: That's
1 correct. You said: 2 "... will kick off prime time 3 and peak time seven days a 4 week". 5 181 MR. IANNUZZI: Well, that's what our 6 new schedule shows. 7 182 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Yes, but 8 is the backbone of your schedule? 9 183 MR. IANNUZZI: Of course. Canadian 10 programming -- this particular service without the 11 Canadian programming is not a service. It wouldn't be 12 any different than any other specialty service or any 13 of the eligible channels, foreign channels that you are 14 doing because all it would be -- anyone can do that. 15 Anyone can go out and buy 126 hours' worth of 16 programming and have a world programming channel. 17 184 That would be a window on the world 18 and I suppose it would be called the Wide World 19 Network. But that's not our mandate, self-imposed as 20 it might be. This is to produce the Canadian 21 programming. This is what makes our channel different. 22 It's the essence. 23 185 I mean, the fact is that when we talk 24 about world programming, we are only talking less than 25 10 per cent American and British programming. Why?
1 Because we want to give the channel the kind of world 2 programming that reflects the peoples of the world who 3 are in Canada. Why do we want to choose a particular 4 kind of world programming? There is an abundance, so 5 much of it that 94 per cent of it never gets on North 6 American television. So we have ample choice. We 7 don't have to beg anyone, outbid anyone. We can choose 8 the best kind of world programming. But that's one 9 part of the service. The real part is the Canadian 10 programming. 11 186 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And it's 12 the Canadian programming I would like to focus on. 13 187 MR. IANNUZZI: That's right. Now, I 14 would like to turn that over to the people who are 15 going to be responsible. Other than producing our own 16 news, the bulk, as you know there, will be produced by 17 independent production. 18 188 The people on our group that will be 19 leading those independent producers across country, 20 both in English and French, are here today and can 21 answer your questions, and if we can add more to that, 22 I am absolutely pleased that this whole thing boils 23 down to -- and if it means the right kind of carriage, 24 then we are here to convince you that we have the 25 ability to make this Canadian programming unique within
1 the broadcasting system. 2 189 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Well, I 3 would appreciate that. 4 190 Just for the record first though, 5 where we have ended up is the same as we had 6 previously, the Canadian content going from 40 per cent 7 to 60 per cent in year 7, and over the evening period, 8 50 per cent. We are still there. 9 191 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes, we are and we 10 have made a commitment in a sense, as you will see the 11 schedule that we have here, which I have shown and 12 which shows that 50 per cent in prime is Canada, and 13 52 per cent overall. That's the snapshot of what we 14 believe we can do if we are given the right kind of 15 carriage. 16 192 So the whole question of 40 going to 17 60, that was in place in order to say if we can start 18 off at a certain level, we can grow into that. With 19 the right kind of carriage we believe we can actually 20 do better than that in year 1. 21 193 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Perhaps 22 when we are discussing distribution, I will come back 23 to that point because you have several options 24 presented to us, but in many cases we don't have on the 25 file what the results of those options are. So we will
1 hold that thought and we will come back to it 2 specifically on each option that you say that you can 3 perhaps do better with your Canadian content component. 4 194 But you know what I am also concerned 5 about is that this is a programming discussion -- what 6 is on the screens in this country, what drove this idea 7 from the beginning world content to Canadian viewers 8 and your multicultural service. This combination was 9 also discussed at the previous hearing. 10 195 If we look at the Canadian side on 11 which you are placing more and more emphasis now, it 12 still remains that if we take what we have in front of 13 us, it will take until year 5 before the Canadian 14 content is really the backbone of this broadcast day. 15 Is that correct? 16 196 MR. IANNUZZI: No, I don't think so. 17 I think that we can do that a lot sooner specifically 18 because we also have what comes into play is the French 19 programming that we expect to do within our series, 20 that the French programming has a big role to play as 21 well in the composition of what our Canadian 22 programming schedule does. 23 197 But I am getting away from -- I am 24 getting into other people's territory here. 25 198 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Just
1 before we move to the specifics -- and I do have a 2 series of questions on certain of the shows, not all of 3 them, obviously, but a few that would give us a sense. 4 Before we get there, I still want to talk about 5 Canadian content exhibition from a general point of 6 view. 7 199 There are a couple of comments that I 8 would like you to expand on again, and here we come 9 back to our first starting point, that you say this is 10 a unique service and this is an exceptional service for 11 fulfilling the objectives of the Broadcasting Act. 12 200 When it comes to our assessment of 13 your Canadian content exhibition, you have said in your 14 submissions that the only fair way to treat an 15 applicant is on a comparative basis. 16 201 MR. IANNUZZI: Correct. 17 202 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Fair 18 enough? 19 203 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes. 20 204 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And 21 specifically you appear to take the position that there 22 should be relevant comparisons between WTM and other 23 Canadian and specialty-like services now carried on 24 analog. 25 205 Why do you feel you should be
1 compared to other services, particularly non-specialty 2 services? 3 206 MR. IANNUZZI: Well, I think that 4 again it's a question of fairness of how you can arrive 5 at the question of not having two weights and two 6 measures. 7 207 So if we compare what someone 8 delivers in order to gain access to an analog channel, 9 then I think, using the objectives of the Broadcasting 10 Act, that we make that comparison. We cannot just be 11 arbitrary, just say well, it's neither ethnic -- well, 12 it's something like ethnic so it should be 13 discretionary because it's this. 14 208 I mean, it's a question of mindset 15 and that's what we are trying to distinguish here 16 today, to leave that whole question of ethnic, 17 discretionary, and all that kind of service, and look 18 at this as an exceptional service, as something unique, 19 something different and in that light the only way then 20 that, through the comparison, can we arrive at a fair, 21 reasonable decision on your part that says: Yes, in 22 light of all of these comparisons, this particular 23 channel is unique and does meet more objectives of the 24 Broadcasting Act and should be deemed an exceptional 25 service in the public interest and, therefore, gain
1 access to analog and part of the basic service. 2 209 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So indeed, 3 since you state it that way, which specialty services 4 would offer the best comparison to your service in this 5 regard and why? 6 --- Pause 7 210 MR. IANNUZZI: So on the question of 8 services, we are going to disregard those that do have 9 modified dual status which we had called for, such as 10 the Comedy Network, Teletoon, Space, Star TV, Outdoor 11 Life and TalkTV, but we are not worried about that for 12 now. We are talking the ones such as the high- 13 penetration ArTV in the French market, dual status CBC 14 Newsworld, Vision TV, YTV and MuchMusic and Section 15 9(1)(h), APTN, TVA national carriage. 16 211 So we would like to do the comparison 17 towards those that are analog and part of basic 18 service. Then when we get into the diversity 19 programming channels, there is a comparison there as 20 well that the conventional networks that do some of the 21 diversity programming are on basic, ie. CTV, CanWest 22 Global and TVA. 23 212 Then we get into the regional 24 multilingual stations that are on basic, CFMT-TV, CJNT 25 in Montreal, the new MultiVan in Vancouver, CFMP-2
1 which is about to be licensed and about to go to air, 2 the Craig Toronto-Hamilton, all on basic. 3 213 We go into the local stations that 4 carry ethnic programming, they are on basic. 5 214 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I think I 6 asked for comparison of specialty services. If you 7 recall, we talked at the very beginning about specialty 8 services. 9 215 MR. IANNUZZI: All right. I was just 10 getting down to that one. 11 216 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And I 12 think in fairness -- 13 217 MR. IANNUZZI: The ethnic specialties 14 such as Telelatino is on analog. The ethnic 15 specialties such as Fairchild, TalentVision, Asian 16 Television Odyssey are on discretionary services. So 17 they are the ones that we are comparing to. 18 218 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: In terms 19 of Canadian content exhibition then, with your proposal 20 of 40 per cent in year 1 and up to 60 in year 7 and 50 21 per cent in the evening hours, where do you position 22 yourself in terms of comparison to other specialty 23 services? 24 219 MR. IANNUZZI: That's the one with 25 Bravo! and --
1 --- Pause 2 220 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Do you 3 want to get back to me on that point? 4 221 MR. IANNUZZI: No, we just have it 5 here. Just one more second -- 6 222 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: You 7 understand why I am asking the question, is you have 8 raised it several times yourself. 9 223 MR. IANNUZZI: I agree and we do have 10 the right comparison. I just thought it was general 11 categories, but you want the specific -- 12 224 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: The 13 specific was the specialties in terms of Cancon 14 exhibition because you have said you are unique and a 15 special service and you have made the point many times 16 that: How do we put your Cancon exhibition proposals 17 in a context that is fair in terms of comparison? 18 225 I am looking for your presentation. 19 226 MR. IANNUZZI: Well, in our 20 submission on page 40, we have a table there that shows 21 our overall exhibition requirements that go from 40 to 22 60 in year 5, and we have 50 per cent throughout the 23 licence term. We make a comparison with ArTV, Télé des 24 Arts, that is 47 per cent in year 1 to 55 in year 7, 25 as an example. It's 45 per cent in year 1 to 60 in
1 year 7. So again, there is some comparison there. 2 227 Bravo! is 40 per cent in 1994/95, 50 3 in 1996/97 and 60 per cent in 1998/99 and their evening 4 exhibition was 40 per cent. It moved up to 50 per cent 5 in their third year. 6 228 TVA regulations was 60 per cent 7 overall and 50 per cent in evening exhibition. 8 229 APTN is 70 per cent overall and 70 9 per cent in evening exhibition. 10 230 On the other hand, History 11 Television, a specialty, is a minimum of 30 per cent 12 moving up to 50 per cent if they end up with five 13 million subs, but their evening exhibition is only 14 33 per cent. 15 231 Outdoor Life is 30 per cent in 16 overall exhibition and 30 per cent in evening. Yet, 17 Space: The Imagination Station, starts off at 25 per 18 cent in 1997 to 40 per cent, including next year of 19 2003. They started off their evening time at 25 and 20 moved to 35 per cent. 21 232 Canal D was 30 per cent in its first 22 year moving to 32 per cent in 1997/98 with 30 per cent, 23 moving to 32 per cent in evening exhibition. 24 233 Historia is 35 in year 1 moving to 25 45 in year 6, and the evening 35 in year 1 and 45 in
1 year 6. 2 234 So when we look at the whole question 3 of Canadian content in the overall exhibition, we come 4 out pretty close to on top of that in comparison to say 5 Bravo! or certainly History and a long way from Space: 6 The Imagination Station on analog discretionary. 7 235 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: When you 8 put an analysis, a comparative analysis like that 9 together, and you are talking about you being an 10 exceptional service, do you feel that our Cancon 11 exhibition commitments are a sufficient demonstration 12 of the uniqueness of your service? 13 236 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes, I do. 14 237 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I notice 15 in your program schedule -- this is from the April 8th 16 submission, Schedule A for the time being -- it's 17 called Prime and Peak Time Part Schedule. 18 238 Here we have Canadian programs from 19 six to eight seven days a week. Correct? 20 239 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes. 21 240 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: World 22 programming from nine to midnight seven days a week. 23 241 Just for the record, when you say 24 "prime" and "peak", it describes this whole chart, what 25 is prime in your view? What are the prime hours here?
1 242 MR. IANNUZZI: Well, it's 6:00 p.m. 2 to midnight. The peak then turns out here in the seven 3 to nine period as part of the prime period. The peak 4 in this case here, we use 8:00 to 9:00 p.m. 5 243 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Often what 6 is the case with specialties there are different 7 reviews, but the TV policy also takes a different look 8 at what is peak and prime. 9 244 Just again, for the record, if I am 10 clear, the entire evening period of eight to midnight 11 you are calling prime time? 12 245 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes. Go ahead. 13 246 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you. 14 247 MR. MARCHANT: I think we are calling 15 six to midnight prime or evening and the intention was 16 to call peak seven to eleven to correspond to the 17 definition in Building on Success, specifically 18 paragraphs 37 to 42 of Building on Success where peak 19 time is so defined and is applied to the major 20 conventional networks, although not to specialties. 21 248 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So in 22 looking at our 50 per cent, it's the evening schedule 23 of six to midnight when we are going back to the way we 24 are setting this. It's 50 per cent six to midnight. 25 249 MR. MARCHANT: It's 50 per cent six
1 to midnight, yes. It's also 50 per cent in peak as 2 defined in Building on Success, seven to eleven. 3 250 Might I just add why we are 4 mentioning this? In Decision 2001-757, WTM was 5 criticized for not having peak time programming that 6 was Canadian. When we went looking for the guidelines 7 on this, what did we find? We found Building on 8 Success. It said it didn't apply to specialties, but 9 it appeared to us that 757 had applied it and also 10 defined peak more narrowly as eight to eleven for 11 purposes of 757 although not for purposes of Building 12 on Success. 13 251 So I guess we are proposing as a kind 14 of common ground, if you will, to use the Commission's 15 definition in 757. So it would be seven to eleven. So 16 50 per cent of peak so defined would be Canadian in the 17 schedule before you, Commissioner Pennefather. 18 252 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Does this 19 apply to all three feeds? 20 253 MR. MARCHANT: Yes. 21 254 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And if the 22 Commission deemed it appropriate, would you accept a 23 modification to your condition of licence regarding 24 your evening exhibition of 50 per cent to reflect your 25 commitment to exhibit these programs in prime time?
1 255 MR. IANNUZZI: Sorry, I didn't 2 understand the question. 3 256 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: You have a 4 condition of licence regarding the 50 per cent 5 exhibition of Canadian programming in the evening 6 period. 7 257 MR. IANNUZZI: Correct. 8 258 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Would you 9 also accept a modification to that condition to reflect 10 your commitment to exhibit these programs, the 50 per 11 cent, the Canadian programs, in the prime time? 12 259 MR. IANNUZZI: In the 6:00 to 13 9:00 p.m.? 14 260 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: No, the 15 prime time is six to eleven, six to midnight, as you 16 just described to me. 17 261 MR. IANNUZZI: Right, but the 18 Canadian programming is laid out from 6:00 p.m. to 9:00 19 p.m. 20 262 MR. MARCHANT: The answer is yes. 21 263 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes. 22 264 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Okay. 23 Thank you. 24 265 We are going now to look at Canadian 25 programming that is listed in your submission of April
1 8th, and I will be using pages 23 to 29, as well again 2 as the schedule in the program descriptions on pages 3 30 to 37. So it may be time for the programming team 4 to jump in. 5 266 First of all a general question. 6 There were program changes made here compared to the 7 submission in June. Have these changes been reflected 8 in your budget that was submitted in June? Do you 9 expect it will make any change in the allocation to 10 Canadian programming? 11 267 MR. BERNSTEIN: Let me answer that. 12 268 Our budget numbers, we hope, reflect 13 what the schedule is. Our numbers are a worst case 14 scenario. We have strategies to deal with the 15 budgeting of our programming. To make sure that in 16 case the budgets, as we set them out, are not enough to 17 fulfil these shows the way we would like to do them, we 18 have other ways of getting -- we think we have other 19 strategies to get them done. 20 269 But yes, it does reflect the new 21 programming and I would like to point out that it is a 22 worst case scenario. 23 270 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: We will 24 get back to what you mean by "worst case scenario". 25 But you are saying that even with the changes you made,
1 that the budgeting submitted in Schedule 24 which 2 breaks down the programming for English/French acquired 3 and in-house produced remains the same? 4 271 MR. BERNSTEIN: I don't know what you 5 mean by "the same". It's at $4.1 million. 6 272 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Yes, 7 that's correct. The list you have here is $4.1 which 8 includes your new programs. In Schedule 24, I think, 9 English language is something like $3.9, $3.8 million. 10 273 MR. BERNSTEIN: Yes. The $4.1 11 reflects the present schedule. 12 274 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So there 13 may be some comparisons there that we will have to 14 check into because I am not sure if they entirely match 15 up. But we will come back to that. 16 275 MR. BERNSTEIN: Good. 17 276 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: My point 18 is: You have made changes on April 8th, but we did not 19 have a new budget in accordance with that, unless this 20 $4.1 represents a new budget for programming. 21 277 MR. BERNSTEIN: No. The changes we 22 made were made within the dollars we had to work with. 23 278 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Okay. I 24 think you are getting the point. 25 279 As we discuss the programs, I picked
1 a few to discuss, but feel free to offer other examples 2 to the panel. 3 280 Again, keep in mind that we would 4 like to discuss this in terms of what is unique and 5 what is exceptional in terms of what Canadians are 6 seeing on the screens. 7 281 The point was made earlier that in 8 revising your schedule, you did find that some of the 9 Canadian programs previously proposed were in the 10 system. So you dropped them. So it's quite a 11 challenge, to be sure, that we are clear that what you 12 have here is nowhere else seen in this country. That's 13 the bar you have set. 14 282 MR. BERNSTEIN: We have never said 15 that these programs are nowhere else. You have 16 licensed in your wisdom a science network, but when the 17 big science story happens CTV News, CBC News will cover 18 that. No network can say that everything they do is 19 only on their network. 20 283 So I question where you are coming 21 from on that one. 22 284 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Well, from 23 your submission. 24 285 MR. BERNSTEIN: No. We said it's 25 unique and it is unique because of the kinds of choices
1 we make, much like APTN, for example. APTN has 2 programs that have appeared on CBC. It has programs 3 that have appeared elsewhere, but you have recognized 4 that it is a unique service because the choices they 5 make are from the basis of the native peoples. 6 286 Well our choices are made from the 7 basis of multicultural communities and world 8 communities. 9 287 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Well, you 10 understand that where I am getting at is to push a 11 little harder because we -- I take your point, but I 12 have to say that Mr. Iannuzzi, today and in previous 13 submissions and at the public hearings, has certainly 14 made the point, and I think it behooves us here to 15 discuss at length why this is a unique programming 16 service. 17 288 Now, yes, there is news everywhere. 18 Yes, there are different programs or the same films 19 perhaps. What makes it different, what makes it unique 20 is exactly what I am after. 21 289 One of the things to clarify off the 22 top is in the previous programming concept, you had the 23 idea of a strategy organized around five different 24 world regions. That seems to have gone. Is that the 25 case?
1 290 MR. BERNSTEIN: Yes, it has. 2 291 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Can you 3 tell us why you did that? 4 292 MR. BERNSTEIN: In the last hearing 5 we had to deal with the subject of the amount of 6 specific language programming we would cover, and we 7 made a lot of concessions saying that, for instance, we 8 would not have more than a certain percentage of 9 Spanish, not more than a certain percentage of Italian, 10 not more than a certain percentage of English and 11 French, of course. 12 293 In order to do that, sometimes by 13 making one night come from one part of the world, Latin 14 America being a good example, it would skew the numbers 15 to the point where you couldn't do Latin America 16 without doing a lot of Spanish programming. 17 294 So we have backed off of that in 18 order to comply with the things that we agreed with in 19 the last hearing. 20 295 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Let's 21 continue on that just for a moment. 22 296 Again earlier we talked about the 23 comment in the Order-in-Council and your agreement, 24 Mr. Iannuzzi, that this service would connect cultural 25 communities, which brings me to the programming
1 challenge which you just raised. 2 297 Is it Mr. Bernstein? 3 298 MR. BERNSTEIN: Bernstein. 4 299 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Sorry, no 5 names, so forgive me if I get mixed up. 6 300 Mr. Bernstein, in terms of how you go 7 about deciding how many multicultural communities you 8 will reach out to, how do you decide that balance, if 9 again this Canadian programming section -- and let's 10 not touch the world programming for the time being -- 11 the Canadian programming section is to be truly 12 reflective, serve the communities, but also connect 13 those communities. 14 301 What is your programming philosophy 15 to be sure you have covered those bases, that you have 16 covered the expectations of the entire country? 17 302 MR. BERNSTEIN: I guess the easy 18 answer is that's my job, I'm a programmer. I don't 19 pretend that I am going to get it 100 per cent correct. 20 All I can tell you is that we will attempt to look for 21 stories that we believe are of interest to all 22 Canadians, stories that reflect the multicultural 23 nature of the country, the diversity of the country. 24 303 When we think multicultural, it is 25 every bit as important, the difference in the culture
1 between the outports of Newfoundland and the City of 2 Vancouver as it is between an Italian community in 3 Toronto and a Chinese community in Vancouver. 4 304 These are all things that we will 5 have to look at and things we will have to take into 6 consideration. The strategies are to look for good 7 stories first. If we find good stories that people are 8 interested in -- that we think people are interested 9 in, to be fair -- we believe there are good stories in 10 every community. 11 305 We believe once we get on the air and 12 once we start showing stories from diverse communities, 13 communities will come to us with stories and hopefully 14 they will come to us with excellent stories that we 15 want to put on air and through that process eventually 16 we are going to hit all the communities. 17 306 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Do you 18 have specific programming criteria in place to assure 19 a balance amongst the various cultural communities? 20 307 MR. APPLEBY: Madam Commissioner, if 21 I may? 22 308 You could take a step back from the 23 programming that we have in the Canadian programming 24 section and look at a vision, if you will. It will 25 always come down to the most dramatic stories, but the
1 truth is we are looking for culture clash, cultures 2 coming together, cultures trying to work things out. 3 We live in a country where we all rub shoulders with 4 different cultures every single day in the workplace, 5 on the streets, in our neighbourhoods. 6 309 So if there is criteria when we take 7 a step back and look for those stories, we are looking 8 for stories where the cultures come together and where 9 there is that clash. That is what being a Canadian is 10 all about. 11 310 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Just to be 12 a little bit unfair, I think the OiC talked about 13 connecting not clashing, but I know what you mean. 14 311 MR. APPLEBY: I mean it in the most 15 positive and the most dramatic and the most difficult 16 sense. 17 312 MR. IANNUZZI: If I may just for a 18 moment, Commissioner? 19 313 In the area of ethnic broadcasting, 20 whether it be a station or a network, the Commission 21 requires that that particular broadcaster break down 22 the number of languages and the cultures to be served. 23 That applies to ethnic broadcasting because that is the 24 way the Commission has to look at and say: This is an 25 ethnic broadcaster, narrow and will be serving X number
1 of communities, X number of cultures. 2 314 Rogers in its application for CFMT-2 3 says: "My reason for requiring another channel is that 4 there are more languages and more cultural groups that 5 are undeserved and therefore...", and so on. That 6 satisfied the Commission in order to licence, I 7 presume. 8 315 In the sense of a multicultural 9 facility, and in a multicultural area, we cannot define 10 that we will be dealing with X number of languages and 11 X number of cultures because then we are not different 12 than an ethnic broadcaster who is compelled to produce 13 programming in order to serve a particular ethnic 14 group. That's what we call ethnic-specific 15 broadcasting. 16 316 In our particular case we deal with 17 the stories, Canadian stories, that have a 18 multicultural background to it and the fact that these 19 are people from around the world that are making up 20 stories in Canada, whether we go to Lunenburg and find 21 Canadian stories there, or we go to Nova Scotia and we 22 get stories that go all the way back to the first Black 23 settlements in there, or we go to Victoria and we find 24 that one of the first mayors of Victoria was coloured. 25 317 So I mean, there are million stories
1 in a country such as Canada that mainstream 2 broadcasters that not been showing, but are promising, 3 once again, that they will be looking for "not ethnic 4 stories, but multicultural stories". 5 318 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Well, I 6 take your point and I am clearly in an area of 7 programming and, rightly so, a vision. That's the 8 starting point because at some point choices are made: 9 Editorial choices, programming choices, what's on the 10 screen. 11 319 You have set a bar that this is the 12 multicultural, the most all-inclusive and unique 13 service in this country. So I think it's important 14 that we find the proof of that in terms of that being 15 said, not necessarily quotas, but how and who makes 16 those choices to assure us that that is what is going 17 to end up on the screen. 18 320 If we could take a specific example, 19 Mr. Bernstein, it might be a little bit instructive as 20 well. 21 321 If we take what I assume is a 22 flagship show, "WorldJournal", am I correct? 23 322 MR. BERNSTEIN: Yes. 24 323 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Since it's 25 on every night, Monday to Friday from seven to eight.
1 324 This is a news and public affairs 2 program, as I understand the description. 3 325 MR. BERNSTEIN: It's a public affairs 4 program. 5 326 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Where will 6 the stories come from? Will they come from foreign 7 bureaus? Will they come from foreign news bureaus? 8 This is a world journal. Is this news about what is 9 going on around the world, or is this news about 10 Canada? And how will you ensure that these programs 11 will really be true alternatives to the foreign news 12 already in the system? 13 327 MR. BERNSTEIN: Well, frankly thank 14 you for an easy one. 15 328 One of things we don't get in this 16 country is the opinions and the stories that come from 17 the places where the stories happen. Yes, that show is 18 about world events, not about Canadian events, but that 19 show is also about what world events mean to Canadians. 20 329 So we start off with stories that we 21 will take from the place, the local stories -- and 22 "local" meaning the stories that take place where the 23 events happen. Obviously the Middle East is a good 24 example today. If we were doing a Middle East story 25 today, we might take a story from Jordanian television
1 and a story from Israeli television. 2 330 Canadians don't see that today. 3 Canadians get a totally North American point of view 4 unless you watch BBC World Service, but it's still a 5 totally western point of view on what is going on in 6 the Middle East. 7 331 We will add to that by putting 8 together groups of people, panels of Canadians, who 9 have knowledge or interest in those areas to discuss 10 a) what those stories mean in general, to give context, 11 but b) to tell us what they mean here in Canada. What 12 should Canadians think about these stories? 13 332 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So if I am 14 correct, there is a news package. It says "assembled a 15 news package". 16 333 MR. BERNSTEIN: That show will 17 include -- we are guessing now because some days will 18 be more, some days will be less -- approximately four 19 stories per show. Each story will have between two and 20 three different points of view. In other words, 21 stories from two or three different countries on that 22 story, to be followed by a discussion about those 23 stories and what we saw in those stories and what those 24 stories mean to us. 25 334 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: In this
1 discussion, who will decide who will be on the panel? 2 How will the discussion panel be selected? 3 335 MR. BERNSTEIN: The same way every 4 other panel show in the world is done. The producers 5 of the show go out and look for people who represent 6 the different sides in the story. 7 336 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Granted 8 the same way but, again I repeat, remember we are 9 looking at this as an exceptional service in Canada. 10 337 MR. BERNSTEIN: Well, what makes it 11 exceptional -- 12 338 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And a 13 multicultural service. 14 339 MR. BERNSTEIN: No, but this is 15 simple. What makes it exceptional is we wouldn't make 16 the same choices. Frankly, Richard Gwynn would not be 17 on the show, it's that simple, because Richard Gwynn is 18 on every show in Canada, it seems. I know what Richard 19 Gwynn is going to say before Richard Gwynn says it 20 because I have read it his columns. 21 340 We will choose from the communities. 22 That's what makes us unique. We are not going to 23 choose Richard Gwynn unless it's, frankly, a story 24 about Ottawa, meaning a local Ottawa story. 25 341 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So again,
1 if I picked your "WorldJournal" every evening, what I 2 can expect to see is a news package on a story of the 3 day, let's say, and you are deliberately going to find 4 from foreign bureaus coverage of that story. 5 342 Do you have agreements already in 6 place with various foreign bureaus to assure that you 7 can have access to this programming? 8 343 MR. BERNSTEIN: It's not foreign 9 bureaus. It's from local broadcasters. 10 344 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Local 11 broadcasters in X, Y, Z countries. 12 345 MR. BERNSTEIN: In those places, 13 that's correct. 14 346 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And do you 15 have those agreements in place? 16 347 MR. BERNSTEIN: We have had meetings 17 with Reuters, for instance, and they are interested in 18 providing this kind of material. We have also had 19 meetings -- now it goes a long way back -- with ITN and 20 these are services that collect stories from around the 21 world. 22 348 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Again then 23 there will be a panel discussion and the selection of 24 the panel you said, perhaps let's say done by yourself, 25 will be from the communities.
1 349 What communities? 2 350 MR. BERNSTEIN: Well, for instance, 3 if we are talking about the Middle East, we might have 4 a Canadian of Palestinian descent, a Canadian of Jewish 5 descent, and maybe even a Canadian of Jordanian 6 descent. We will choose people who, we would like to 7 think -- because this country is so diverse, we have 8 the luxury of having people from almost any community 9 in the world and the beauty of this is they have a foot 10 in both places. 11 351 So on the one hand, they understand 12 what is going on wherever the story is taking place, 13 but on the other hand they also understand Canada and 14 the Canadian context. We would like them to bridge 15 that. 16 352 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Onto 17 another program, "Original Voices". It's still on the 18 list of your Canadian programs and I believe commented 19 on in both submissions as an important element. Yet, 20 it doesn't appear on the schedule. 21 353 Do you still intend to air the show? 22 354 MR. APPLEBY: "Original Voices" is 23 not a show that will be on the schedule, but it is a 24 theme that will appear in other shows. There are no 25 shows that we have on our schedule that deal with one
1 specific group. Those groups will be widely 2 represented in every show, particularly the First 3 Peoples. 4 355 I can give you an example of how that 5 would be done in a story. For example, I think it 6 would help if I can give you the kinds of stories that 7 we will be treating. 8 356 In our series "Eye on Canada", which 9 is a documentary series that we will be commissioning 10 programs from independent producers, the theme of 11 culture clash and cultures confronting and cultures 12 working together is very much an important theme in 13 that program. 14 357 So one story, for example, that we 15 have been developing with independent producers is 16 called "Zone Docks", and I will just describe it to you 17 briefly so you have an idea of who we might deal with 18 native stories in this context. 19 358 There is a community, Sioux Lookout, 20 in Northern Canada. It has one hospital, and it serves 21 a geographical area that is about the size of Western 22 Europe. There are scores of small communities around 23 Sioux Lookout, native communities, that depend on Sioux 24 Lookout, and one hospital there for all their medical 25 attention.
1 359 Who are the doctors who are flown up 2 to this hospital? They are basically 34 doctors who 3 come from all across Canada, with roots in many 4 different countries. They have never been that far 5 north before. They go to this community in Sioux 6 Lookout and they then are the doctors who are saving 7 the lives and working with the native communities. 8 360 It's a story about saving lives, but 9 it's also a story about two cultures coming together: 10 The doctors who have never been in these communities 11 before, and the native communities who have never 12 encountered doctors like these before. 13 361 That's the way we would deal with the 14 stories. We would have native stories in any other 15 shows provided that they fit the dramatic criteria that 16 makes for good television. We are television producers 17 and we want to look for good stories. 18 362 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: An 19 interesting last comment. I don't know if you caught 20 West Wing last night, but it in fact dealt with the 21 whole issue of what is good television versus what is 22 democracy and television involved in democracy. But we 23 will just move on. 24 363 The intercom program is an 25 interesting piece of the proposal in Canadian
1 programming. Let's talk about that a little bit. 2 364 Is it a paid airtime arrangement? 3 365 MR. IANNUZZI: No. This is not paid. 4 This again is working with communities. The major 5 communities in Canada have within their communities a 6 structure of organizations and federations that work up 7 to national organizations, ie. the Canadian 8 Ethnocultural Council as an example is a national 9 organization out of Ottawa that speaks on behalf of 90 10 ethnocultural communities. 11 366 We believe that we can give them 12 access on a weekly basis by developing a program with 13 them. It's not unlike working with volunteers in 14 community programming. This gives them the access. 15 They have the ability of coproducing this type of 16 material and this type of programming so that on a 17 rotation basis we will be able to satisfy as many as 18 20 or 30 of the associations or national federations to 19 have a program that they can in real time speak to 20 their entire membership across the country, something 21 that is not available to them now. 22 367 They have access on ethnic programs, 23 ethnic networks. Some of these associations actually 24 do buy time on facilities such as CITY-TV and CJNT in 25 Montreal in order for them to express their concerns,
1 or to express their views, on certain issues of 2 national importance, but they have never had national 3 exposure. This is what we believe we can do for them. 4 368 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: It's less 5 community groups and more associations. 6 369 MR. IANNUZZI: That's right. 7 370 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And do you 8 have criteria as to how you will determine who will be 9 able to use this airtime? 10 371 MR. IANNUZZI: Well, as part of our 11 outreach program we will be in touch, as we have been, 12 with a number of national multicultural associations. 13 Many of them have supported us as interventions so that 14 we have been, over the years, in touch with them and, 15 yes, this is something they would like to do. 16 372 Once we do that, we will then have a 17 criteria to see how many would be willing to do that, 18 and of the five hours we have per week, or the 250 19 hours per year, is how we will share this particular 20 facility with them on a fair basis. 21 373 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Well, you 22 got my point, the fair basis. 23 374 MR. IANNUZZI: Absolutely. 24 375 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Setting 25 some criteria. So I gather you will do that at some
1 point. 2 376 MR. IANNUZZI: Well, this comes from 3 my experience, if I may, in all my years in ethnic 4 broadcasting and how we had to satisfy as many 5 communities as possible, and the Commission's records 6 which show that CFMT in the first decade supplied more 7 airtime and developed more community programming than 8 it was licensed for. 9 377 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: And then 10 you will not be surprised at my next question. How 11 will you ensure that such programming abides by 12 applicable programming codes and regulations? 13 378 MR. IANNUZZI: Well, we will be 14 responsible as a licensee for all the programming 15 content. 16 379 These programs are being done in 17 English and, therefore, we have full control on its 18 contents since this is all pretaped programming the day 19 before or during the week and then aired on the 20 Saturday and Sunday time periods. 21 380 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So you 22 will be offering access to production studios? 23 381 MR. IANNUZZI: Pardon? 24 382 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: You will 25 offer access to production studios.
1 383 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes, yes, both in 2 Toronto, Ottawa, and in Montreal, the closest -- 3 384 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So it 4 won't be only in English. 5 385 MR. IANNUZZI: No. There is French, 6 as I say, in a portion of that programming we have a 7 common denominator being that 30 per cent of our 8 programming, and again in Montreal many of those 9 communities want to do the programming in French and we 10 agree with them that that is their right and we will 11 make that available. 12 386 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you 13 for that. 14 387 Let's get to the independent 15 production component of your proposal, in terms of what 16 is going to be on the air in the Canadian programming. 17 388 At the June hearing you confirmed 18 that you would commission a minimum of 13 new Canadian 19 documentaries each year for "Eye on Canada" and you 20 also clarified that overall approximately $39 million 21 or 18 per cent of gross revenues will be spent on 22 independent productions over seven years. 23 389 Now, do these commitments still 24 stand? 25 390 MR. BERNSTEIN: Yes, they do.
1 391 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: If so, how 2 are they incorporated into your programming strategy? 3 392 MR. BERNSTEIN: All of our programs 4 other than our news programs -- all of our Canadian 5 programs other than our news programs are independent. 6 393 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Other than 7 the news. So the in-house production are essentially 8 the "WorldJournal", the "World Weekend Journal", but 9 all others are acquired? 10 394 MR. BERNSTEIN: And WTM "News Day". 11 395 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: A question 12 on the 18 per cent. That was in the June discussion on 13 the basis of a particular carriage proposal, with a 14 particular revenue result and in questioning, I think, 15 Mr. Iannuzzi, you were very clear that the 18 per cent 16 is what you propose. 17 396 Again, is the 18 per cent to continue 18 if, in fact, there is a different revenue result 19 depending on carriage? Is it still the same 20 commitment? 21 397 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes. That's the 22 minimum. If we get the carriage that we believe this 23 service should be approved for it, of course, would 24 represent increased revenues -- and we can discuss that 25 further, as you had said we would -- that in this
1 particular case we believe that the bulk of that 2 increase would go to the Canadian independent 3 production area of our Canadian programming. 4 398 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: So to be 5 clear, the 18 per cent of gross revenues is the bottom 6 line in terms of independent production? 7 399 MR. IANNUZZI: That's right. 8 400 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I would 9 like to come back to that when we discuss the English 10 and French component. Before going there, you also 11 discussed at the previous hearing a commitment in terms 12 of regional production, describing it as a reasonable 13 balance of expenditures on Canadian programming in a 14 year across other regions in the country. 15 401 Does this commitment still stand? 16 402 MR. IANNUZZI: It absolutely does. 17 403 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Are these 18 yearly commitments? 19 404 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes, they are. 20 405 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Can you 21 define "reasonable balance of expenditures" in this 22 commitment? What does that mean? 23 406 MR. IANNUZZI: Well, that we would 24 express the use of our funds for that portion of the 25 independent production would be allocated -- we had a
1 table for that at our last public hearing and it was on 2 file with the Commission and I don't have it here 3 before me, but I can certainly get it by the break or 4 tomorrow morning -- that showed how we would dispense 5 with our independent production budget, including the 6 French production that represented 30 per cent of our 7 combined independent production budget. 8 407 It would be 30 per cent for Quebec 9 and then I think we broke that down for Ontario and 10 then Western Canada and some for the Maritimes, and so 11 on, so that we would fairly give the opportunity to 12 independent producers in these areas. Why? Because we 13 want those stories to come back. I mean, there are 14 enough independent producers in Toronto that have been 15 knocking on our door, at least the ones that believed 16 we are going to be in business, asking already with 17 ideas. 18 408 But my point is, I am also speaking 19 to Chris Zimmer in Halifax, we are in contact, and he 20 keeps telling me that, although he is a film producer, 21 he can't wait to do some regional stories in 22 documentary form, and so on. And we have them out in 23 Vancouver as well and Manitoba. 24 409 So it's in our interest as 25 businesspeople to spread this to independent producers
1 across the country, but in return not only would be get 2 good value for our money, but we would get good 3 stories, and truly reflect the national identity of our 4 Canadian multicultural society. 5 410 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Yes, 6 indeed. In considering the bar you have set for this 7 service and the points that were made earlier in terms 8 of different stories on our screens, I would have 9 thought a very specific commitment in terms of regional 10 production would be part of this package. 11 411 MR. IANNUZZI: We have that laid out. 12 412 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: If you 13 could retable that because my reading of the 14 transcript, and I could be corrected, as a discussion 15 of the 30 per cent for Quebec, 30 per cent for French, 16 and a reasonable balance for regional production, and 17 beyond a reasonable balance one wonders how -- 18 413 MR. IANNUZZI: There is a breakdown 19 and we will deliver that to you. 20 414 I would like to ask Marcel Clémont to 21 go a little further into regional -- and with his 22 experience both at the National Film Board and others, 23 maybe he can fill in on that. 24 415 Marcel? 25 416 M. CLÉMONT: Commissaire. Mes années
1 d'avoir travaillé avec l'Office national du film, 2 Radio-Canada et comme producteur indépendant dans le 3 Canada, j'ai eu l'opportunité de travailler avec des 4 maisons de production, des producteurs indépendants 5 dans presque toutes les régions du pays. 6 417 Je peux constater à ce point-ci que 7 vis-à-vis la programmation et la conception d'idées des 8 producteurs francophones hors du Québec, disons, parce 9 qu'on en a des centaines qui sont très intéressés à 10 produire pour nous. 11 418 Aussi pendant mes démarches dans les 12 régions du Canada j'ai aussi eu l'opportunité de 13 travailler avec des diverses cultures de producteurs et 14 dans chaque cas je pense que je peux indiquer qu'il y 15 avait des idées, des concepts de production ou il n'y 16 avait pas de fenêtre de disposition pour ces projets. 17 419 Pour nous ce qui est très intéressant 18 c'est de travailler avec le secteur privé dans le 19 Canada parce qu'on est trois ou quatre producteurs dans 20 la programmation qui ont travaillé, ou travaillent 21 aujourd'hui, avec des producteurs dans presque toutes 22 les régions du pays, et nous sommes disons experts dans 23 certaines démarches de contracter et de travailler avec 24 ces producteurs pour développer des idées pour nous. 25 Dans plusieurs cas, des centaines d'idées déjà ont été
1 présentées mais ce qui est important dans notre cas 2 aussi c'est d'avoir des producteurs qui connaissent nos 3 buts, notre vision vis-à-vis le réseau de télévision 4 qu'on propose. 5 420 Alors c'est un point dont je voulais 6 discuter vis-à-vis notre compréhension du secteur privé 7 et les producteurs indépendants dans notre pays. 8 421 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Merci. 9 422 M. IANNUZZI: Merci, Marcel. 10 Monsieur Demers... 11 423 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Juste avant 12 que nous ne commenciez, monsieur Demers, est-ce que ça 13 va si je continue en français pour la plupart de votre 14 panel? 15 424 M. IANNUZZI: Oui. 16 425 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: En effet, 17 si je peux interrompre M. Iannuzzi, j'étais sur le 18 point de prendre un peu de réflexion, de faire un peu 19 de réflexion sur l'aspect de ce projet qui touche, 20 encore une fois, la Loi sur la radiodiffusion, mais qui 21 concerne la dualité linguistique de ce pays qui est 22 aussi dans l'objectif 3(1)(d)(iii). 23 426 J'ai des difficultés à comprendre 24 comment ce service va vraiment servir la population 25 francophone du Canada, mais j'ai peut-être mal compris
1 la façon dont la programmation sera faite pour les 2 francophones. 3 427 M. Clémont vient de décrire l'aspect 4 de la production indépendante. Les idées sont là, sont 5 connues depuis plusieurs années, je pense. Mais si 6 j'ai bien compris, toutes les descriptions de la 7 programmation étaient les programmations faites en 8 anglais. 9 428 Je vois un horaire qui est identique, 10 et vous n'avez pas caché ce fait-là que les horaires 11 sont identiques. Mais est-ce que les productions 12 canadiennes sont identiques? Est-ce que 13 « WorldJournal » sera produit seulement en anglais et 14 diffusé aux francophones avec des sous-titres anglais? 15 Est-ce que c'est possible que ça puisse être acceptable 16 et vu comme étant un service exceptionnel au service de 17 la loi dans ce cas-là? 18 429 En prenant cette conclusion j'ai 19 peut-être mal saisi l'application parce que les budgets 20 pour la production francophone sont peut-être le quart. 21 En effet, monsieur Iannuzzi propose 30 pour cent pour 22 la production francophone. Je pense que dans 23 l'application du 8 avril c'est maintenant 25 pour cent 24 pour la production francophone. 25 430 La programmation qui est ici aussi,
1 qui devrait avoir une connexion avec les citoyens de ce 2 pays en anglais et en français, est-ce qu'on peut dire 3 qu'on sert vraiment les auditoires francophones en leur 4 donnant de la programmation anglaise sous-titrée en 5 français? 6 431 Il n'y a pas de problème pour le 7 « world programming ». On comprend très bien et on va 8 arriver à ça, mais c'est le côté « Canadian 9 programming ». J'ai eu l'impression qu'un « feed » aux 10 francophones de la programmation anglaise sous-titrée 11 en français ne sera pas exactement le service 12 exceptionnel qu'on peut viser dans ce contexte-là. 13 432 Est-ce que j'ai mal compris la façon 14 dont vous allez servir les auditoires francophones? 15 433 MR. IANNUZZI: Madam Commissioner, if 16 I may before my good friend Rock jumps in here on that 17 particular matter? 18 434 You are not the first one that always 19 comes to the point and says: Well, in the duality, how 20 do you intend to serve this? 21 435 The fact is that Canada is a 22 multicultural society and there is a Multiculturalism 23 Canada Act. There isn't an English one and a French 24 one, there is one, and we tend to look at, as we do 25 with the Broadcasting Act, the Multiculturalism Canada
1 Act and the rest of it. So that when we are talking 2 about the service, we are talking about one licence 3 with two services within this particular licence. 4 436 Now, we are saying that both services 5 are identical, except for maybe some time shifts, 6 depending on how it goes, but they are identical, an 7 example being when, of course, you look at our 8 presentation and all the program schedule is there in 9 English, and if we would have had the time and 10 translated them into French, then it would have had a 11 sort of French feel to it. But the fact is that these 12 are Canadian stories. 13 437 In fact, they are, I just remembered. 14 We did get them in in time, getting French translation 15 in Ottawa is not easy. The fact is that if we take one 16 particular story called "Mainstreets", and we call for 17 producing 13, 20, whatever the number is, and 30 per 18 cent of those -- when I say 25 it is 25 in the Province 19 of Quebec, 5 in francophone areas outside. So we are 20 talking 30 per cent a whole. 21 438 Therefore, 30 per cent of the 22 programming would be produced -- the English ones are 23 produced as "Mainstreets" and the other ones are 24 produced as "Rue Principale", but they will produced 25 again -- the storylines maybe are the same, the type is
1 the same, but they are produced in Quebec by 2 independent producers under that particular label. We 3 then subtitle those so that on the English network 4 during that series coming up in prime time will be a 5 program called "Rue Principale", dialogue in French, 6 interviews in French, or what have you, and the 7 subtitling is in English. I mean, this is a bilingual 8 country. If people can't understand the language, they 9 can at least understand the written words. 10 439 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I 11 understand your point. You understand what I am 12 talking about in terms of production values. This is 13 television, as your colleague said earlier. Are you 14 saying that "Mainstreets", as an example, will be 15 produced originally both in French and in English? 16 440 MR. IANNUZZI: Absolutely. 17 441 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Is that 18 the case for "WorldJournal" as well? 19 442 MR. IANNUZZI: For "WorldJournal", on 20 those particular areas where there are stories that 21 will emanate out of Montreal, we will -- and you can 22 correct me there -- have people from the communities 23 who are French speaking. So there would be a balance. 24 443 I mean, no one can tailor this to 25 being precise, of saying three times a week will be in
1 French and four times will be -- it's as the stories 2 develop. 3 444 I mean, we have to give the news and 4 information department the flexibility that says: What 5 it is the best for the story of today? Where can we 6 get the right people to give that Canadian perspective 7 that is there? We are dealing out of Montreal. We are 8 dealing here and producing out of Ottawa and in Toronto 9 and eventually hope to do Vancouver as well. 10 445 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: What would 11 be helpful? Because I must say I still am concerned 12 that we are not getting a clear enough picture of the 13 francophone service, if you follow me. 14 446 If I am a French-speaking Canadian 15 and I want to watch this Canadian programming component 16 and I am looking at shows which are produced in the 17 English-language and subtitled on my main service -- 18 let's say I am in a situation where I have both the 19 majority language feed and the minority language feed, 20 and we will get to that later -- on the majority 21 language feed, am I seeing my shows produced in my 22 language? 23 447 I think you understand where I am 24 getting at there. It's hard to imagine that the 25 schedule will be as full and as visionary at 25 per
1 cent or 30 per cent of the production budget if that is 2 to be the case. 3 448 MR. BERNSTEIN: All of our shows, all 4 of our Canadian shows, are either French or English. 5 449 In other words, if there is a strand 6 called "Mainstreets", it is either "Mainstreets" or 7 "Rue Principale". The numbers of 25 per cent for 8 Quebec and 5 per cent for other Franco-Canadians bring 9 it up to 30 per cent. Those are minimums and, frankly, 10 in today's financial world and budgetary world and 11 programming, we would be crazy not to do actually more 12 French programming because it's less expensive to us. 13 450 So what we are guaranteeing is that a 14 minimum for that programming, 30 per cent, will be in 15 French. Thirty per cent of the strand of "Rue 16 Principale" will be French. Seventy per cent, as a 17 maximum, will be English, but when you are watching the 18 show that is done from the Main Street in Kingston, it 19 will probably be in English. The show that is done 20 from the Main Street in Shawinigan will most likely be 21 done in French. 22 451 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I 23 understand that point. To be clear, it would be 24 helpful if you could submit to us a program outline 25 which, from a francophone's point of view, looked at
1 this where there would be French programming, French 2 original programming. 3 452 It could be the same schedule, but 4 just tell us how that is going to work in a clearer 5 fashion because you can understand, and you said, 6 Mr. Iannuzzi, that you are not surprised at my 7 question. 8 453 MR. IANNUZZI: No. 9 454 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I think it 10 would help us. 11 455 MR. IANNUZZI: It's one of those 12 things that you need a schedule in front of you. 13 456 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Well, we 14 have a schedule. My point is the schedule doesn't tell 15 us about the way the shows for francophones would be 16 produced. 17 457 MR. IANNUZZI: Yes, we will table 18 that, but before we do, I had promised Rock -- he has 19 to get off his chest. 20 458 So Rock, go ahead. 21 459 MR. DEMERS: It's very little that I 22 had to say. 23 460 Je voulais dire que j'ai déjà à mon 24 bureau de nombreux projets qui ne pourront exister que 25 si World Télémonde existe et ce sont des projets qui me
1 sont amenés soit par des autochtones, soit par des gens 2 qui ont émigré d'Amérique Latine, soit pas des 3 Asiatiques, soit par une organisation qui regroupe une 4 quinzaine de communautés culturelles à Montréal et qui 5 ont déjà des piles de programmation ou de propositions 6 à offrir. C'est ce que je voulais indiquer lorsque 7 j'ai demandé la parole tout à l'heure. 8 461 Mais suite à ce qui vient de se dire, 9 je trouve très intéressant la dernière question que 10 vous posez parce que c'est aussi la première question 11 que j'ai posée lorsqu'on m'a présenté ce projet, et 12 j'ai voulu avoir l'assurance que de Montréal le 13 bulletin de nouvelles, par exemple, auquel on se 14 réfère, il y aura un certain nombre d'émissions qui 15 origineront, disons, d'une perspective francophone 16 canadienne du pays qui seront intégrées dans l'ensemble 17 des émissions qui seront faites dans d'autres parties 18 du pays. 19 462 S'il n'y avait pas eu une réponse 20 très positive à ça encore là, comme j'ai dit tout à 21 l'heure, je ne serais pas ici parce que je vois 22 Télémonde dans ce qu'il a de plus spécifique et 23 d'unique en ce fait qu'il doit absolument contribuer à 24 cimenter les différentes communautés canadiennes. 25 463 Comme beaucoup de citoyens
1 francophones et anglophones, j'en ai marre de cette 2 dualité qui sépare notre pays et pour moi Télémonde va 3 être exceptionnel en ce sens qu'il va offrir un service 4 qu'aucune autre télévision, quelle soit généraliste ou 5 spécialiste, n'offre actuellement à l'ensemble de la 6 population canadienne. 7 464 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Merci, 8 monsieur Demers. 9 465 J'ai une toute dernière question. 10 466 I have one last question and perhaps 11 you could come back in the morning, it's a numbers 12 question, and then we will go onto world programming in 13 the morning. 14 467 Just to clarify the number of 15 original hours during the broadcast day for the English 16 service and for the French service as opposed to 17 repeats. Obviously it's a schedule in which there are 18 repeats. 19 468 We did have a little different 20 addition from yours in terms of how many original hours 21 we now have after the changes in April. So could you 22 come back to us with a clarification on how many 23 original hours we will have in Canadian programming? 24 469 MR. BERNSTEIN: Yes. 25 470 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: We
1 certainly have a number of points we are going to come 2 back to, but I think dinner calls for all of us. 3 471 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 4 Commissioner Pennefather. 5 472 We will resume at 9:30 a.m. tomorrow 6 morning. 7 473 MR. IANNUZZI: Thank you, 8 Mr. Chairman. 9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1858 to 10 resume on Friday, May 10, 2002 at 0930 / L'audience 11 est ajournée à 1858 pour reprendre le vendredi 12 10 mai 2002 at 0930
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