TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

                          SUBJECT:

VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

Westin Edmonton Hotel                 l'Hôtel Westin Edmonton

10135 100th Street                    10135, 100^e rue

Edmonton, Alberta                     Edmonton (Alberta)

June 19, 2006                         Le 19 juin 2006

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

                 Transcript / Transcription

VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

BEFORE / DEVANT:

Michel Arpin                      Chairperson / Président

Barbara Cram                      Commissioner / Conseillère

Rita Cugini                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Ronald Williams                   Commissioner / Conseiller

Stuart Langford                   Commissioner / Conseiller

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Chantal Boulet                    Secretary / Secrétaire

Joe Aguiar                        Hearing Manager /

Gérant de l'audience

Anne-Marie Murphy/                Legal Counsel /

Shari Fisher                      Conseillères juridiques

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

Westin Edmonton Hotel             l'Hôtel Westin Edmonton

10135 100th Street                10135, 100^e rue

Edmonton, Alberta                 Edmonton (Alberta)

June 19, 2006                     Le 19 juin 2006

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

                                                 PAGE / PARA

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

1097282 Alberta Ltd.                                8 /   41

Allan Hunsperger                                   81 /  454

Newcap                                            154 /  982

O.K. Radio Group Ltd.                             216 / 1413

               Edmonton, Alberta / Edmonton (Alberta)

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Monday, June 19, 2006

    at 0930 / L'audience débute le lundi

    19 juin 2006 à 0930

LISTNUM 1 \l 11                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to this public hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12                My name is Michel Arpin and I am the Vice‑Chair of Broadcasting for the CRTC.  I will be presiding over this hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13                Joining me on the panel are my colleagues, Barbara Cram, Regional Commission for Manitoba and Saskatchewan; Rita Cugini, Regional Commissioner for Ontario; Ron Williams, Regional Commissioner for Alberta and the Northwest Territories; and Stuart Langford, National Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14                The Commission team assisting us includes Hearing Manager Joe Aguiar; Manager, English Radio Applications; Legal Counsels Anne‑Marie Murphy and Shari Fisher; as well as Chantal Boulet, Hearing Secretary.  Please speak with Mrs. Boulet if you have any questions with regard to hearing procedures.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15                At this hearing, we will first study 10 applications to operate a new English‑language commercial FM radio station in Grande Prairie, Alberta.  We will then look at nine applications to operate an English‑language commercial FM radio station in the Fort McMurray market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16                The panel will examine the applications in the order in which they are listed in Broadcasting Notice of Public Hearing CRTC 2006‑4.  Some applications are competing technically for the use of the same frequencies in the Grande Prairie and in the Fort McMurray markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17                The panel will study the proposals to operate a new radio station in light of the cultural, economic and social objectives defined in the Broadcasting Act.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18                The panel will base its decision on several criteria, including the state of competition and the diversity of editorial voices in the market, as well as the quality of the applications.  It will also look at the ability of the markets to support new radio stations, the financial resources of each applicant, and proposed initiatives for the development of Canadian talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19                I will now invite the Secretary, Mrs. Chantal Boulet, to explain the procedures we will be following.

LISTNUM 1 \l 110               Mrs. Boulet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 111               THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 112               Before beginning, I would like to go over a few housekeeping matters to ensure the proper conduct of this hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 113               When you are in the hearing room, a reminder to please turn off your cell phones, beepers and BlackBerries as they are unwelcome distractions for participants and commissioners and they cause interference on the internal communication systems.  We would appreciate your cooperation throughout the hearing in this regard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 114               We expect the hearing to take approximately one week.  We will begin each morning, starting tomorrow, at 8:30 and finish approximately around 7:00 p.m.  We will take an hour for lunch and a break in the morning and in the afternoon.  We will let you know of any schedule changes that may occur.

LISTNUM 1 \l 115               The Centennial Room, which is located immediately outside the hearing room, will serve as the examination room where you can view the public files of the applications being considered at this hearing.  As indicated in the agenda, the telephone number of the examination room is 780‑493‑8957.

LISTNUM 1 \l 116               There is a verbatim transcript of this hearing being taken by the court reporter at the table across the room from me.  If you have any questions on how to obtain all or part of this transcript, please approach the court reporter during a break.

LISTNUM 1 \l 117               Please note that the full transcript will be made available on the Commission's website shortly after the conclusion of the hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 118               For the record, I would like to indicate that the Commission has approved the request of Sun Country Cablevision Ltd. on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated, which is item 6 on the Notice of Public Hearing 2006‑4, to amend its application by removing the letter and attachment from target broadcast sales dated June 27th, 2005.  The letter and attachment no longer form part of the application before the Commission and will not be taken into consideration by the Commission in its deliberations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 119               In addition, with respect to the applications by Cogeco Cable Quebec Inc., which are items 26, 27 and 28 on Notice of Public Hearing 2006‑4, the Commission has advised the applicant by letter that paragraphs 17 to 27 and 45, as well as Appendix 1 of the applicant's reply, will not be considered by the Commission during its deliberations.  The Commission's letters and related documents are available as part of the public record in the examination room.

LISTNUM 1 \l 120               As indicated earlier, we will begin the hearing by considering the competing applications for the Grande Prairie market, followed by the competing applications for the Fort McMurray market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 121               We will be proceeding with a four‑phase process as follows.

LISTNUM 1 \l 122               First, we will hear each applicant in the agenda order and each applicant will be granted 20 minutes to make his presentation.  Questions from the Commission will follow each presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 123               In Phase II, the applicants reappear in the same order to intervene if they wish on the competing applications.  Ten minutes are allowed for this purpose and questions may follow from the Commission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 124               In Phase III, other parties will appear in the order set out in the agenda to present their appearing intervention and 10 minutes will be allowed for each presentation.  Again, questions from the Commission may follow.

LISTNUM 1 \l 125               Finally, Phase IV provides an opportunity for each applicant to reply to all the interventions submitted on their application.  Applicants appear in reverse order and 10 minutes are allowed for this reply.  Again, questions may follow by the Commission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 126               Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 127               THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  In order to keep peace during this first day of the hearing ‑‑ (puts Edmonton Oilers cap on).

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

‑‑‑ Applause / Applaudissements

LISTNUM 1 \l 128               THE CHAIRPERSON:  The members of the panel have agreed to sit until 5:00 p.m. today in order to allow you to go and watch the game.

‑‑‑ Applause / Applaudissements

LISTNUM 1 \l 129               THE CHAIRPERSON:  I know that my buddy Mr. Williams will also want to add something about it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 130               COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Chairman Arpin.  It is my pleasure to invite the Wayne Gretzky of broadcasting up to the podium to help me officially welcome you all to Edmonton, home of the mighty Edmonton Oilers and Stanley Cup contenders.

‑‑‑ Edmonton Oilers sign put up /

    Enseigne des Edmonton Oilers érigé

‑‑‑ Applause / Applaudissements

LISTNUM 1 \l 131               COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You are now officially in oil country and that is okay.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 132               THE CHAIRPERSON:  Welcome around the ring and let us start the hearing.  If I am wearing headphones, it is not because I am getting the translation, it is because it helps me to better understand what you say.  The sound around the place is very dim and so it enhances things when you are talking.  So don't think I am looking to get the translation of what you say.

LISTNUM 1 \l 133               COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I thought you were getting the soccer scores.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 134               THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, Madam Secretary will introduce the first applicant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 135               THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 136               We will now proceed with item 1 on the agenda, which is an application by 1097282 Alberta Ltd. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 137               The new station would operate on frequency 96.3 MHz (channel 242C1) with an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts (non‑directional antenna/antenna height of 265.5 metres).

LISTNUM 1 \l 138               The Commission recently approved the application (2006‑0257‑5) for the transfer of all of the issued and outstanding shares of 1097282 Alberta Ltd. held by Mr. Edward Tardif and Mr. Remi Tardif to Radio CJVR Ltd.  The letter of approval (L2006‑0028, dated 11 May 2006) has been added to the public examination file.

LISTNUM 1 \l 139               As well, the applicant has provided the Commission this morning two letters that will be placed on the examination file as well, one which is dated June 15th from the President of Radio CJVR Ltd., Mr. Gene Fabro, as well as another letter dated June 1st from Mel Wang, Account Manager.  These two letters will be available on the public examination file of this application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 140               Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Gene Fabro who will introduce his colleagues.  You will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation.  Please go ahead.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 141               MR. SINGER:  Good morning, Mr. Chairman and commissioners, and go Oilers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 142               My name is Ken Singer.  I am Vice‑President and General Manager of Radio CJVR Ltd.

LISTNUM 1 \l 143               Before we begin our presentation, I would like to introduce you to the members of our team.

LISTNUM 1 \l 144               On my right is the President and owner of Radio CJVR, Gene Fabro.

LISTNUM 1 \l 145               To my left is Kevin Gemmell, General Sales Manager of our company and a former Grande Prairie resident and broadcaster in that market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 146               To Kevin's left is Remi Tardif.  Remi and his father Ed prepared the application before you as the principals of 1097282 Alberta Ltd., a company now controlled by Radio CJVR Ltd.

LISTNUM 1 \l 147               It is our pleasure to appear before you this morning and tell you about our broadcasting company and our plans for an exciting new radio station to serve Grande Prairie and area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 148               Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission, Radio CJVR is pleased to appear before you today seeking approval of our proposed new Classic Hits station on 96.3 FM to serve Grande Prairie and surrounding communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 149               If licensed, CJVR will provide Grande Prairie and its more than 43,000 residents with a dynamic new FM radio station whose unduplicated Classic Hits format will add significant diversity and listener choice to the local marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 150               Approval of 96.3 FM will result in many key public benefits accruing to the following:

LISTNUM 1 \l 151               ‑ the diverse array of urban and rural communities across the region;

LISTNUM 1 \l 152               ‑ those underserved listeners within the 18‑54 demographic spectrum hungering for more musical choices on local radio;

LISTNUM 1 \l 153               ‑ local businesses seeking an alternative radio advertising vehicle to better reach and serve their customers on a cost‑efficient basis;

LISTNUM 1 \l 154               ‑ local Canadian talent in need of financial assistance and on‑air exposure;

LISTNUM 1 \l 155               ‑ cultural and performing arts organizations who support and promote local Canadian talent;

LISTNUM 1 \l 156               ‑ Alberta's private commercial radio sector; and

LISTNUM 1 \l 157               ‑ the Canadian broadcasting system as a whole.

LISTNUM 1 \l 158               As well, approval of 96.3 FM will establish competitive balance within the local radio spectrum by providing a distinct alternative news voice for the benefit of Grande Prairie and the surrounding area residents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 159               In addition to enhanced programming diversity, added listener choice and competitive balance, CJVR brings important ownership diversity to Grande Prairie's radio market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 160               As an independent career broadcaster solely dedicated to radio, CJVR and its Albertan owners, the Fabro family, firmly believe that smaller independent radio voices have an important role to play within Alberta and Canada's private broadcast sector amidst today's increasing ownership concentration.

LISTNUM 1 \l 161               Mr. Chairman, as you know, Radio CJVR is the licensee of CKJH‑AM and CJVR‑FM in Melfort, Saskatchewan, and most recently CIXM‑FM in Whitecourt, Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 162               We wish to thank commissioners and staff for the prompt manner in which they processed the application to transfer all of the issued and outstanding shares of 1097282 Alberta Limited, licensee of CIXM.  Commission approval of this transaction which was conducted under difficult circumstances was very much appreciated by all parties and has well served the public interest of Whitecourt's radio listening audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 163               In regard, I am pleased to say that upon receiving Commission approval on May 11th, 2006, CJVR hit the ground running and will have CIXM on the air and serving the listening needs of Whitecourt residents by mid‑September 2006.

LISTNUM 1 \l 164               The relevance of the above‑noted share transfer to this Grande Prairie proceeding is directly tied to the fact that several months prior to the transaction, 1097282 responded to the Commission's call for applications for Grande Prairie as per broadcasting Public Notice CRTC 2005‑30 of April 12th, 2005.  Accordingly, 1097282, under the leadership of Remi Tardif, filed its Grande Prairie application on July 12th, 2005.

LISTNUM 1 \l 165               Hence, in addition to acquiring CIXM Whitecourt as a result of the approved share transfer, CJVR has assumed 1097282's original application filed in pursuit of a new radio broadcasting licence for Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 166               Given the circumstances leading up to our appearance here today seeking approval of 96.3 FM, CJVR would stress that we stand firmly behind this application and if approved will fulfil all of the commitments made by 1097282 and adhere to any conditions set out by the Commission in its licensing decision.

LISTNUM 1 \l 167               Mr. Chairman, CJVR is grateful for this opportunity to compete for 96.3 FM and we are mindful of the Commission's rules of procedure relative to an applicant amending their application after the fact.

LISTNUM 1 \l 168               In stating that, I would underline that should we be approved, CJVR will carefully review all of 96.3 FM's proposals with a view to further enhancing and exceeding any aspect of the station's operations from technical to programming to talent development that we feel will better serve Grande Prairie residents and further the public interest.

LISTNUM 1 \l 169               I might add that under the Fabro family's approach to broadcasting, they have a habit of turning minimums into maximums.  As Vice‑President and General Manager of Radio CJVR broadcast operations, I found this to be the case in Melfort and now in Whitecourt as we build for the long term.

LISTNUM 1 \l 170               CJVR believes that in all of our applications, we bring a level of programming strength, broadcast experience and understanding of small markets and a sensitivity to the broadcasting needs and aspirations and a total commitment to Canadian talent development.

LISTNUM 1 \l 171               MR. GEMMELL:  Mr. Chairman and commissioners, Grande Prairie is important to CJVR as it represents another cornerstone in our company's strategic broadcast plan to increase our critical mass in western Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 172               As an independently owned career broadcaster of 40 years, CJVR is totally committed to furthering the growth of our dedicated radio company through acquisitions and the pursuit of new licensing opportunities for Grande Prairie, Fort McMurray, Medicine Hat, Saskatoon, Regina and other initiatives as they arise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 173               Commission approval of the share transfer of 1097282 to Radio CJVR and the subsequent acquisition and imminent launch of CIXM Whitecourt was an important first step in growing our critical mass of radio stations beyond our joint AM‑FM operations in Melfort.

LISTNUM 1 \l 174               We are excited by the potential opportunity to establish a new FM at Grande Prairie, a dynamic growth centre whose expanding economic activity and population has outstripped the city's ability to keep pace with all of the service demands that such development creates, including the need for additional local radio programming choices.

LISTNUM 1 \l 175               While Grande Prairie's two existing local radio stations, CFGP with the Hot AC format and CJXX offering a country music format, do a good job in serving their respective listening audiences, they cannot be all things to all people as clearly evidenced by the need and demand for a Classic Hits format to help meet the musical preferences of the underserved 18‑54 demographic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 176               Essentially, CFGP is the most listened to local station in Grande Prairie with its hot AC music format skewing towards a younger 13‑34 demographic, whereas CJXX's country music format is most attractive to the 35‑54 demographic and in particular the 55+ age group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 177               Based on 1097282's music survey of Grande Prairie's market, Classic Hits of the 80s and 90s followed by Classic Rock were the two music formats of choice among the 18‑54 year olds.  Broken down, the largest percentage of respondents indicated the Classic Hits format would be their first preference.

LISTNUM 1 \l 178               Classic Hits 96.3 FM will add fresh diversity to Grande Prairie's local radio market by complementing rather than competing with CFGP's hot AC and CJXX's country music formats.

LISTNUM 1 \l 179               Radio CJVR, in programming 96.3 FM musically, will specialize in playing Classic Hits featuring artists such as Bryan Adams, Fleetwood Mac, Glass Tiger, Santana, Amanda Marshall and Bachman Turner Overdrive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 180               We would also note that in keeping with CJVR's dedication to supporting and exposing Canadian artists, we will program to a minimum level of 40 per cent Canadian content and will gladly accept that commitment as a condition of licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 181               As we have done in other markets, Radio CJVR, as a matter of course, in creating greater musical diversity and enhancing the careers of both established and developing Canadian artists, will further enhance 96.3 FM's regular program schedule through the development of special musical program initiatives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 182               MR. SINGER:  Mr. Chairman, across four decades of broadcasting, CJVR has consistently provided its listeners with spoken work initiatives that focus on where they live and on those local elements that influence and shape their daily lives and activities and impact on their communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 183               Given that 96.3 FM's 2 mV coverage contour encompasses some 57,000 persons and its .5 mV contour includes 74,000 persons, CJVR will ensure that its spoken word programming is inclusive, locally relevant, community‑driven and reflective of the daily news, events and activities that are happening in urban and rural communities throughout the coverage area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 184               In all, a minimum of 14.4 hours of 96.3 FM's weekly broadcast schedule will be devoted to spoken word programming, of which nearly 7 hours of news will be presented via 134 newscasts across the week and on weekends.

LISTNUM 1 \l 185               CJVR will also employ a number of initiatives to meet the demands of Grande Prairie residents in their quest for more information on weather, traffic, road conditions and school closings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 186               MR. SINGER:  Mr. Chairman and commissioners, CJVR brings to Grande Prairie and 96.3 FM a proud legacy of excellence, achievement and commitment in the area of talent development that has had a significantly beneficial impact on the careers of many Canadian artists who have gone on to achieve national and international success.

LISTNUM 1 \l 187               Part of that legacy is derived from the fact that CJVR Melfort has been recognized six years in succession as Canadian Country Radio Station of the Year by the Canadian Country Music Association and 11 years in a row as the Saskatchewan Country Music Station of the Year by the Saskatchewan Country Music Association.

LISTNUM 1 \l 188               The success that CJVR and its Canadian artists have enjoyed is in no small way due to the corporate resolve on the part of the Fabro family, who are totally supportive and talent friendly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 189               With respect to Grande Prairie, 1097282 has committed to $315,000 over the term of the licence in direct expenditures.  That is $45,000 per year as follows:  $20,000 for Mission Grande Prairie Talent Search; $10,000 to FACTOR; $10,000 to the Alberta Recording Industries Association; and $5,000 to Broadway Live Music Productions Inc.

LISTNUM 1 \l 190               In addition to these direct expenditure initiatives, 1097282 will contribute $5,000 annually to CKRP‑FM, a francophone non‑profit community radio station in Falher, also serving Nappa and Peace River, Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 191               We would underline the fact that the direct expenditures of $45,000 per year or $315,000 over the licence term on Canadian talent initiatives are expressed as minimum expenditures.

LISTNUM 1 \l 192               As well, CJVR would note that it always includes as part and parcel of any of its Canadian talent development proposals an indirect on‑air expenditures budget that is designed to complement its direct expenditures programming by providing free air time to groups and organizations engaged in supporting and promoting local Canadian talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 193               MR. GEMMELL:  Mr. Chairman, from CJVR's perspective there is little doubt that the Grande Prairie market is capable of supporting one or more new private commercial radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 194               A brief snapshot of various economic indicators reflects Grande Prairie's dramatic growth and development across a number of sectors in recent times.

LISTNUM 1 \l 195               With a diverse local economy that is fuelled by an abundance of natural resources ranging from forestry and agriculture to oil and natural gas development, Grande Prairie residents can look to the future with a great sense of optimism.

LISTNUM 1 \l 196               In terms of population, Grande Prairie recorded the strongest growth rate among Canadian cities at 18 per cent between 1996 and 2001.  Its current population of 43,000 represents a growth rate in excess of 9 per cent since the 2001 census and the city projects a population of 55,000 by 2013, a 35 per cent increase from the last census.

LISTNUM 1 \l 197               Other key economic indicators for Grande Prairie include:

LISTNUM 1 \l 198               ‑ an average family income of almost $70,000;

LISTNUM 1 \l 199               ‑ projected 2006 retail sales at $1.08 billion ‑‑ that is well above the national average;

LISTNUM 1 \l 1100              ‑ the April 2006 regional unemployment rate of 2.9 per cent is less than half the national average; and

LISTNUM 1 \l 1101              ‑ 2005 housing starts at 1,231 are up from 975 the year before.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1102              Grande Prairie is home to a growing number of national chains and retailers, numerous major shopping centres and other commercial outlets serving a market area of more than 200,000.  Despite such continuing economic growth and expanding population base, Grande Prairie is still served by only two private radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1103              A comparison of other cities of similar size shows Grande Prairie with fewer private radio stations per capita.  For example, Penticton, B.C. and Timmins, Ontario are served by three and four private stations respectively.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1104              MR. SINGER:  Mr. Chairman, in bringing musical and spoken word diversity and listener choice to the marketplace, 96.3 FM will strengthen Grande Prairie radio while further enhancing Alberta's private radio broadcasting sector.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1105              First, by establishing its unduplicated music format, 96.3 FM will convert former listeners into active listeners again by drawing them away from various other alternative audio options like the internet, satellite radio and portable music devices.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1106              In the absence of their musical preferences on local radio, people tune to other sources to satisfy their listening needs.  With 96.3 FM's musical offerings and locally relevant spoken word programming in place, those former listeners will come back to Grande Prairie radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1107              As well, 96.3 FM will be attractive to new residents moving to Grande Prairie from other areas where they had access to both Classic Hits and Classic Rock.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1108              Ultimately, all of these factors will rekindle interest in local radio and translate into increased hours of local tuning and an overall strengthening of the Grande Prairie market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1109              Commission approval of 96.3 FM will also yield important benefits to the Grande Prairie business community by providing a highly cost‑efficient alternative local advertising vehicle to target and serve the 18‑54 listenership.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1110              Public interest in the proposed new FM station coupled with the commercial appeal of its Classic Hits format will also attract new advertising dollars to Grande Prairie's radio market, with minimal impact on existing local stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1111              MR. FABRO:  Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, my family has owned CJVR since 1991.  Over the past 15 years, we have contributed stability and business acumen along with our financial and moral support to management and staff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1112              As an owner, I am proud of our accomplishments in Melfort both in terms of quality of service that our radio stations provide to over 150,000 residents of some 100 communities throughout northeast Saskatchewan and the success that CJVR has experienced in our support, promotion, exposure and development of Canadian talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1113              Needless to say, today's broadcast industry is facing many competitive challenges from different quarters as new technologies evolve and the manner in which people receive their audio entertainment becomes more diversified in keeping with their changing lifestyle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1114              In spite of such ever present challenges, my family remains bullish on the future of radio broadcasting and we want to do more.  CJVR has a wealth of broadcast experience, the financial strength, the human resources, the creative entrepreneurship and the corporate will to play a larger role in western Canada's private commercial radio sector.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1115              From my perspective, it is critical that motivated, independent broadcasters like Radio CJVR be given the opportunity to grow our critical mass in order to further enhance the level of programming services to our listeners, strengthen our competitive ability and provide a credible alternative to other broadcast organizations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1116              The Grande Prairie opportunity is of central importance to CJVR as it represents an integral part of our strategic broadcast plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1117              MR. SINGER:  Mr. Chairman and commissioners, included among the many important benefits that approval of CJVR's proposed 96.3 FM will yield for Grande Prairie and surrounding communities are the following points.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1118              96.3 FM's unduplicated music format will add significant programming diversity and listener choice to Grande Prairie radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1119              Through its one of a kind music format and locally relevant spoken word programming, 96.3 FM will meet many of the listening needs and preferences of Grande Prairie's 18‑54 underserved demographic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1120              96.3 FM's diverse musical and spoken word programming will strengthen Grande Prairie radio by attracting new listeners and drawing lost listeners away from alternative audio options resulting in increased hours of tuning to local radio without impacting on existing stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1121              The public's desire for more choice coupled with the commercial appeal of a Classic Hits format will result in new radio dollars being attracted to the Grande Prairie market with minimal impact on existing stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1122              The establishment of a new Classic Hits FM station will provide local and national advertisers with a highly cost‑effective alternative advertising vehicle to better serve the maturing 18‑54 demographic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1123              The addition of Classic Hits 96.3 FM will establish competitive balance within the Grande Prairie radio market by providing among other important elements a distinct alternative news voice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1124              Approval of CJVR's new Classic Hits station will increase ownership diversity within Grande Prairie and Alberta's private commercial radio sector.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1125              Approval of CJVR's new undertaking will ensure continuance of a strong independent radio voice at a time when many smaller broadcast entities are disappearing through increased industry concentration.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1126              The addition of 96.3 FM to Grande Prairie's local radio spectrum will result in a series of Canadian talent development initiatives involving a minimum direct expenditure of $315,000 over the licence term.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1127              96.3 FM will optimize the utilization of the 96.3 frequency by extending its unduplicated musical format to meet the programming needs and preferences of the underserved 18‑54 demographic within Grande Prairie and surrounding communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1128              96.3 FM through its daily musical and spoken word programming will reflect the cultural and racial diversity within Grande Prairie's growing population.  Approval of 96.3 FM will result in the creation of 15 full‑time employment equity opportunities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1129              MR. FABRO:  Mr. Chairman, it is for these reasons that we firmly believe that approval of our proposal for 96.3 frequency will best serve the public interest and we respectfully ask the Commission to approve our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1130              On behalf of the owners, management and staff of Radio CJVR, I wish to thank the Commission for this opportunity to appear before you and your colleagues.  We will be happy to answer any questions the panel may have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1131              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Fabro.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1132              I am asking Mr. Ron Williams to ask the first questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1133              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good morning, Mr. Fabro, Mr. Singer, panellists.  Is it most appropriate that I perhaps direct my questions to Mr. Singer and he can redirect them?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1134              MR. SINGER:  I thing that would be fine, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1135              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  In your opening remarks you stated that smaller independent radio voices have an important role to play within Alberta and Canada's broadcasting sector amidst today's increasing ownership concentration.  Could you please elaborate on that statement?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1136              MR. SINGER:  Well, I think, Mr. Commissioner, obviously frequencies are becoming more and more rare.  We are looking across Canada and seeing that the larger markets, the choices are getting tighter and tighter for frequencies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1137              What we see in many instances is that the big players in the broadcasting industry in Canada are now turning their attention to the smaller markets.  So there has never been a more important time to us as small market broadcasters to up our stakes a bit and acquire more licences to remain competitive in the broadcasting industry as a whole.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1138              We also feel that a small market radio, which we specialize in, is something that is very locally driven and certainly something that would fit the markets that we are applying in in terms of offering new diversification and a new level of local service that we know so well, that we have practised for over 40 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1139              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  What special competitive edge can a smaller broadcaster bring in a marketplace that may have a national broadcaster presence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1140              MR. SINGER:  Well, I have been in the radio business all my life ‑‑ and I guess you could say most of that activity was in smaller markets ‑‑ and I really feel that the level of talent is certainly commendable.  One of the great things about the business that I have come to love is that in those markets we aren't just a voice in the box.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1141              Our broadcasters are known by everyone in the community.  We involve ourselves with everything that is going on and not just from the point of view of promoting it.  Our people are on committees.  They take part in the activities and they are organizers and their families participate in those communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1142              I think that that is where radio is.  I mean the small market radio can still do that.  I think one of the real competitive edges we have is that when a decision has to be made about any of our operations, we can quickly make that decision, sometimes within minutes or within hours.  We find that the bigger broadcasters don't have that turnaround time because they are driven largely by head offices in larger centres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1143              I just feel that radio's immediacy is probably even more effective because of the way small market broadcasters or smaller stations can operate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1144              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Can you as a small broadcaster, Mr. Singer, compete with a larger organization for on‑air talent or other radio station staff and resources given their economy of scale compared to a smaller broadcaster?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1145              MR. SINGER:  That is a good question, Commissioner Williams.  I guess one of the reasons that we have developed our strategic plan to expand is so that we can compete for talent and better talent because it is one of the challenges of small group operations such as ours that currently operate three radio stations to attract the level of talent that sees opportunities for growth within our company as opposed to working for one of the bigger operations that have many, many opportunities available to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1146              I think from a calibre of talent that we attract, however, we do very well at that.  We have within our company a handful of people that have spent more than 25 years with us and are sought after but they choose the kind of radio that we offer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1147              Without question, if we are successful in any of our applications, it is just going to strengthen our company and enable us to recruit and develop that much better calibre of talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1148              MR. FABRO:  May I add a few points there, Commissioner Williams?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1149              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Of course, Mr. Fabro.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1150              MR. FABRO:  I was just reflecting on Mr. Singer's comments with regards to our staff.  We have nine persons that have an average longevity with us of 19 years.  These people aren't in the market at all for the money because we are somewhat restricted in terms of what we can afford to pay but they are certain broadcasters of longevity and very, very involved in the community and that is the community type of radio that we do.  I don't believe that the larger broadcasters can deliver the same type of community service that we do in terms of our being in touch with the local community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1151              Also, our love of the business, I think, is so much more ingrained because a lot of our on‑air staff and back room staff are from the local area.  They understand what the problems are and it just flows through the way we deliver radio because they are from a farming community and their roots are in the farm and they understand how to deliver the message to their fellow citizens where they grew up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1152              I think our brand of radio is much more sincere than the larger chains that deliver the messages from afar.  I think our brand of radio is something that the Canadian broadcast system needs and I think that in order to have a better broadcast system we need smaller independent operators like ours to survive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1153              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  On page 9 of your opening remarks, Mr. Fabro, you stated:

"In spite of such ever present challenges, my family remains bullish on the future of radio broadcasting and we want to do more."  (As read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 1154              What would cause you not to remain bullish?  Like are these licences that you have applied in this hearing and in others essential to your survival and your interest in the radio business?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1155              MR. FABRO:  Commissioner Williams, that is absolutely true.  It is a matter of survival.  Like the small orphan broadcaster can't really compete.  You have to have certain economies of scale in order to survive the vagaries of the market.  Especially where we are at in Saskatchewan when we have downturns in the agriculture economy, it is almost like we are farmers because we feel the effects directly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1156              In order to diversify the risk we need more licences.  We need more licences to survive, to give a return to the investors and to service the public.  It is not just a matter of obtaining licences just to put a notch on our belt, it is a requirement that we actually need licences to move forward to survive as an independent broadcaster.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1157              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Mr. Fabro.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1158              Mr. Singer, when you were preparing your application for Grande Prairie ‑‑ I think we know it can be described as a higher cost area, a lower unemployment area.  What are your thoughts regarding the high cost of living within Grande Prairie and the effect it would have on attracting employees and do you have unique plans to deal with these challenges in such a community?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1159              MR. SINGER:  Mr. Commissioner, we certainly are aware of the ups and downs of the Alberta economy.  Without question, the costs of operating a radio station are going to be significantly higher than they are in Saskatchewan but also we feel that the revenue opportunities are that much greater in Grande Prairie, so it certainly offsets that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1160              We are here today ‑‑ as mentioned in our presentation, we are not amending anything that was presented by Remi and his father Ed in this application and we will adhere to the business plan that is in there.  However, we do have the resources to invest perhaps heavier in the programming expense side and we recognize we likely will have to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1161              But at the same time we see tremendous growth opportunity in the Grande Prairie market and we are prepared to deal with that and certainly recognize, as Mr. Fabro alluded to, that we have to grow our operations to acquire talent that is maybe a notch above what we have been doing in smaller markets in the Grande Prairie market and that is going to cost more money but we are prepared to deal with that most definitely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1162              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How, as business owners, do you reconcile the fact that you may have to in fact pay a higher wage in Grande Prairie than your employees are currently enjoying and how do you explain that disparity within the company?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1163              MR. SINGER:  Well, Mr. Commissioner, I don't think that is entirely that cut and dry because, as Mr. Fabro alluded to, we have a lot of long‑term employees with our company that are currently making the kind of salaries that we would be paying in the Grande Prairie market, for example.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1164              So we are not ‑‑ our staff is probably ‑‑ about half of our 32 employees are what you might called starters.  The other half are approaching 10‑, 15‑year veterans and definitely they have ‑‑ the salary costs for those people is fairly substantial in relationship to the revenues that we can attract in a smaller market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1165              So we are used to that kind of a balance and definitely we ‑‑ as I say, I go back to our business plan.  We see opportunities here with some revenue growth that is substantially higher than what we can do in our Saskatchewan operations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1166              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Given the higher cost of living, rents, housing prices, et cetera, do you feel that you will have any difficulty attracting employees to work in Grande Prairie should you be successful?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1167              MR. SINGER:  Mr. Commissioner, we deal with that in Saskatchewan and have been for 40 years.  I mean broadcasters have opportunities from coast to coast and in spite of us being in a smaller market ‑‑ Melfort is 6,000 people but we serve a large rural audience, over 100 communities ‑‑ we have a type of radio that does attract good talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1168              We have a great Program Director in Bill Wood who has been with us 32 years.  Bill is a tremendous teacher and we are proud to see many of the employees that we have recruited in much larger markets, in fact even major markets, just years after they work with us.  So we know going in that ‑‑ you know, we hire talent ‑‑ we like to think we hire talent that somebody is going to want someday and then we know we have got somebody good.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1169              We are very locally driven.  When we have an opportunity to hire someone from the area, someone that grew up in the market, someone who knows people already, we will definitely focus on that person over someone that comes from a great distance because we really do believe they are going to do a better job on the air.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1170              And what is it going to cost us for that person?  Well, we accept the fact that good talent costs a little more money than perhaps someone whose first job is going to be their last job.  We are just not interested in that kind of a broadcaster.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1171              MR. FABRO:  Also, part of it is we are lucky that we have a broadcast signal that all these people hear and they hear good broadcast radio.  We are a big market station in a small market community and we sound big market and these young people that hear us, they want to work and learn from a small market broadcaster that sounds like a big market broadcaster.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1172              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, thank you.  I will move into a new area of questioning now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1173              The objective of this question is to formalize your new ownership structure on the record, so Mr. Tardif may be involved as well.  Mr. Singer, I will direct the questions to you though.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1174              We note from your presentation this morning that Radio CJVR now controls 1097282 Alberta Ltd. following a recent transfer of shares transaction approved by the Commission.  For the record, can you confirm the following?  Is the transfer of shares transaction complete?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1175              MR. SINGER:  Yes, it is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1176              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  The new ownership structure of 1097282 Alberta Ltd., we need to have those documents filed on the record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1177              MR. SINGER:  They have been filed with the Commission and a copy of those documents are here today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1178              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1179              MR. SINGER:  A copy was filed with your secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1180              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Very good, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1181              Further, with reference to your Grande Prairie FM application, do you have available to you today documentary evidence to support the financing of the proposed new service?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1182              MR. SINGER:  Yes, we do and a copy of that letter has also been filed today and also with the Commission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1183              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Presumably, in deciding to continue with Alberta 1097282 Ltd.'s application for a new FM in Grande Prairie you had the opportunity to assess and review the contents of the proposal.  Now, you alluded to and recognizing that in a highly competitive new commercial radio proceeding as this one, the Commission generally prohibits the addition or amendment of any aspect of an application that could be interpreted as serving to improve the application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1184              How comfortable are you with the program offerings and the overall business plan set out in the application by Messrs. Tardif?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1185              MR. SINGER:  Mr. Commissioner, we certainly reviewed that application and we appreciate that this is kind of a difficult situation that the Commission has and so do we in terms of the architect of that proposal and application is here with us.  While we agree that all of Mr. Tardif's ideas are doable, as we alluded to in our presentation, we will strive, if we are successful with this application, to not only meet those commitments but improve upon each and every one of them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1186              We definitely recognize that there are deficiencies in the application, that perhaps we may have done things a little bit differently had we prepared that application ourselves but we are comfortable with the end result of it in terms of identifying a format that will work in the marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1187              From a business point of view on the finances, we are comfortable with the projected sales revenue.  We do, however, feel that the operating expenses are a little conservative compared to what we would propose that it would cost us to operate this radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1188              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So can we put you down as being comfortable with the original application?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1189              MR. SINGER:  Yes, you can.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1190              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1191              Mr. Singer, you describe your proposed music format as offering Classic Hits that would serve Grande Prairie in the 25‑44 demographic which you have identified as being underserved by local radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1192              Newcap is also seeking to serve the same general demographic group with music that would seem to fall under your music range description.  As an applicant in a competitive process, I assume you have reviewed the Newcap application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1193              Could you please explain how you think your format differs from the Newcap proposal and can you give us some examples to demonstrate this difference, please?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1194              MR. SINGER:  Well, I will speak to this and also ask Remi Tardif, Mr. Commissioner, to participate if he feels because Remi certainly started the ball rolling on this whole application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1195              But just generally, I would just like to say yes, we have reviewed our fellow competitors' applications and the Classic Hits and Classic Rock definitions seem to be rather interpretive here because there are certainly similarities in the music lists in terms of just looking at, you know ‑‑ I see Classic Hits as primarily music of the 80s and 90s and Classic Rock being the older genres, the 60s and 70s.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1196              However, when I see the applications and review the applications I see that everybody is looking at kind of a melding of Classic Rock and Classic Hits.  Some are identified as just Classic Rock, although there are selections from the 80s and 90s as part of it.  Some are identifying themselves as a Classic Hits station whose music mix is going to encompass some 60s and 70s music.  And there is a lot of crossover here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1197              I guess, you know, when you really get down to it, Classic Hits, Classic Rock, Remi's research ‑‑ and I will turn it over to him in a moment ‑‑ certainly suggests that both of those formats are top choices in terms of bringing something to the Grande Prairie market that isn't readily available.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1198              MR. TARDIF:  And that is what we see, we do see a crossover.  Unfortunately ‑‑ you might have seen a statistic somewhere; there are always statistics everywhere ‑‑ in any given market, 70 per cent of the music that you see is essentially from the same pool and you are seeing lots of formats being developed and being called one thing when they could be crossing over into another.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1199              When you look at the Newcap application their definition of Classic Hits seems to focus in on the 70s primarily with groups like Led Zeppelin and the softer of the Classic Rock that would cross over into the Classic Hits.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1200              This application really likes to put the focus on the 80s and 90s, and sure, there will be elements of the 70s one could argue Classic Rock but mostly in the Classic Hits format of the 80s and 90s with more range on the artists.  Many Classic Hits formats will keep it limited to a certain time frame from a certain artist and a genre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1201              An example of this would be Madonna.  Everyone knows or many people have heard the song "Like a Virgin," and "Celebrate."  These are all songs from the 80s.  In Classic Hits many stations don't play the Madonna songs as she always reinvents herself, songs that were hits in the 90s such as Madonna's "Ray of Light" CD where we have some contemporary tunes from 10 years ago that you don't hear on Classic Hits stations from today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1202              So I guess the difference between our application and Newcap's would be our flair for more of a contemporary Classic Hits if we were to segregate it and analyze it in that form.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1203              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Mr. Tardif.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1204              Mr. Singer, I guess if we focus now on your demographic which you have identified as being 25‑44 age group, this age range suggests listeners with varying tastes and entertainment needs.  How do you propose to fill these needs and can you give us some examples to demonstrate these programming offerings?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1205              MR. SINGER:  Well, certainly from a musical point of view, we feel that the median age is in the mid‑30 range in Grande Prairie and to be playing a large mix of music from the 80s and 90s certainly has appeal to that demographic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1206              We also feel that involving those listeners in the radio station in terms of loyal listener clubs ‑‑ we have proposals on our other applications that do include things that appeal to the listeners.  We definitely have a lot of spoken word that relates to things going on in the community that appeals to that demographic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1207              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That is this specific application we are speaking about; is that correct, Mr. Singer?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1208              MR. SINGER:  Correct.  But as I said at the outset, what is in this application is what we are limited to do.  As I say, our kind of radio is not to provide a jukebox.  We think that to compete against the new forms of audio, iPods, satellite, we have to be more than that personality radio and we have to talk to our listeners.  We have to involve them in our radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1209              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  Now, within this broad 24‑44 demo, do you have a core age group that you will be targeting?  Would the 32 that you referred to be ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1210              MR. SINGER:  I would say 25‑44 would be our core audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1211              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So 25‑44, you wouldn't segregate it further?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1212              MR. SINGER:  Certainly, Classic Rock and Classic Hits do appeal to both ends of the spectrum.  I think the older spectrum has probably the greater potential than the younger spectrum with both of those formats.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1213              Again, just looking at the types of artists that Remi just alluded to, they are timeless and in talking to people in the market who know the market well, they miss that mix of music, a pure classic mix of music.  So definitely if there was some growth outside the 25‑44, I would say it would be on the 45+ side.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1214              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Mr. Singer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1215              In your application, you indicate you would program a weekly Canadian content level of 40 per cent.  What would be your position if the Commission were to impose upon you a condition of licence that as a minimum 40 per cent of your weekly Category 2 music would be devoted to Canadian selections?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1216              MR. SINGER:  We would be very fine with that, Mr. Commissioner.  No problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1217              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Do you intend to provide 40 per cent Category 2 Canadian content between 6:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. Monday to Friday and if so what would be your position if the Commission were to impose this commitment as a condition of licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1218              MR. SINGER:  Mr. Commissioner, that would not be a difficulty.  That is the way we program our current radio stations and it would be the same in Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1219              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1220              In the area of spoken word programming, you are proposing an overall weekly level of just over 14 hours.  Could you please identify some of the programs to be produced and the relevancy to the local Grande Prairie community?  You might want to talk about who will be responsible for producing these programs and given your plan to target a broad 25‑44 age group whose tastes and interests vary, which challenges you may face in successfully serving all of these potential listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1221              MR. SINGER:  Well, I will answer part of that question, first of all, who will be responsible for that.  That will be our Program Director and our News Director, and under them certainly the newspeople and the announcers will be guided and coached in both the journalistic side and also the on‑air side of spoken word.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1222              But to talk about the specific plans as per the proposal that is on file, I will turn it over to our architect, Mr. Tardif.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1223              MR. TARDIF:  As you identified, there are challenges in trying to serve the 25‑44 age range.  In the seven hours of non‑news spoken word, I tried to incorporate as much diversity within the format to allow as much diversity for the format within the area of Grande Prairie and all potential listeners in that age range.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1224              On a musical level, we do have a variety within the Classic Hits format trying to pinpoint times and be retro, be nostalgic at certain times of the week.  Such examples would be the Backtrack Countdown on Saturday which includes revisiting a certain year and a certain chart and making it sound like that point in time in today's standards, so something unique on that front.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1225              I have also included Sports Shop Talk for Sunday mornings.  Although radio is primarily motivated musically for listeners via music, Grande Prairie is buzzing with activity on a sports level.  You have a Seniors Hockey League for the entire Peace country.  Grande Prairie has 13, the Grande Prairie Athletics.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1226              You also have numerous volleyball teams, numerous basketball teams in surrounding communities including in Grande Prairie that reach notoriety on a national level, very talented people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1227              I think this one‑hour Sports Talk contributes to the diversity in the spoken word for the station on that level within the Classic Hits format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1228              MR. SINGER:  Mr. Commissioner, I could also add, and again, as pointed out in our presentation, we certainly would adhere to those points that Mr. Tardif has raised about programming plans but when you look at the type of radio we provide at our stations ‑‑ and soon will be in Saskatchewan and soon will be in Whitecourt ‑‑ you will note many spoken word elements that we know will work in those two markets and we definitely would be employing them in the Grande Prairie market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1229              Offering our listeners opportunities to access to our airwaves, we do a tremendous amount of on‑location community broadcasting because in Saskatchewan if it wasn't for those over 100 communities that we serve we would have a very, very small market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1230              On any given month, we are out on location in those communities broadcasting from Main Street or from the Town Hall or the Library and we talk to the local people.  We put them on the air with us, talk about what is going on there and certainly that is our connectivity with our listenership.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1231              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1232              As part of the Grande Prairie Talent Search you plan to spend $20,000 annually, including $15,000 (sic) to the winner which will be used towards recording, producing and distributing a professional CD.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1233              Could you please take us through this budget distribution?  For example, will the budget portion allocated to CD recording and production involve third‑party facilities or would this be an in‑house activity?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1234              MR. SINGER:  I will turn that over to Remi and I can jump in if you want.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1235              MR. TARDIF:  Sure.  The Mission Grande Prairie Talent Search would cost about $20,000.  Now, you mentioned the winner would receive $15,000.  It is actually $5,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1236              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you for correcting that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1237              MR. TARDIF:  And the remaining funds would be for the production costs and promotion of that.  So if you say that there are third‑party costs, that is what the $15,000 would be, in terms of the assembling of the compact disk, the LP if you will, and the packaging and the slight distribution of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1238              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  All paid to a third party?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1239              MR. TARDIF:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1240              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1241              I would like now to discuss with you your proposal to direct $5,000 annually to Falher French‑language community radio station which broadcasts in the Peace River region, CKRP‑FM, and I would like to remind you that under the Commission's CTD policy, qualifying initiatives involve those that are earmarked for the direct development of Canadian creative or artistic talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1242              Based on this, how will this contribution fulfil the eligibility requirement for Canadian talent development?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1243              MR. TARDIF:  I do have it as an initiative in the application but it is not included in the $315,000.  It is, I guess, an appendix ‑‑ an appended initiative that I put in out of the goodwill of the application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1244              I am from that area.  I am from Falher, recently of hockeyville fame, and the station has been on the air for about 10 years now.  Recently with the economic hardships in that area, lots of people moving out ‑‑ agriculture, of course, is the main industry in that area ‑‑ the station has been seeing some financial difficulties.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1245              Being a new player in the area, although Falher is an hour and a half northeast of Grande Prairie, any new station in Grande Prairie will essentially affect the bilingual listeners of the Falher area who listen to this French station and potentially any other new station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1246              On that level, I feel kind of bad for a little community radio station having some troubles.  So out of goodwill I threw that initiative in there as an extra in order to be able to help.  Charity starts at home and coming from that area, I felt it was a good way to help out my good broadcasting friends at CKRP.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1247              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So this is a contribution over and above your CTD initiative?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1248              MR. TARDIF:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1249              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1250              Mr. Tardif, you are from the Grande Prairie area and, Mr. Singer, you are interested in working in that area.  How many new radio stations do you believe Grande Prairie could support at this time?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1251              MR. SINGER:  Well, Mr. Commissioner, first of all, let me say that I wish I had the knowledge that the CRTC would have of what the revenues are in that market for current broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1252              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  We just gather most of that from the broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1253              MR. SINGER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1254              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So don't feel bad.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1255              MR. SINGER:  Okay.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1256              MR. SINGER:  I hate to turn it back to you but I say you have the opportunity to make the best decision in that regard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1257              Let me say that our business plan was certainly developed on the granting of one more licence in the marketplace.  At the same time we feel that the growth of the market by the time the successful applicant has that station on the air, that market may be that much more viable than it is today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1258              Yes, we would prefer to be approved and be the only one approved but let me tell you this, if there were two licences handed out, we wouldn't turn one back.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1259              So I certainly believe that the Commission will thoroughly evaluate the potential of the marketplace.  We have presented our financial projections and certainly are prepared to deal with any level of competition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1260              As we noted in our presentation, similar size communities in Penticton and Timmins, Ontario have three licences and four licences respectively and we don't feel that either of those markets is enjoying the economic boom that Grande Prairie is.  So I guess it is back to you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1261              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, thank you.  We will certainly deal with that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1262              In the event that the Commission decides not to license you for the frequency for which you have applied, have you considered the use of another frequency, and if yes, which one, and if no, why not?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1263              MR. SINGER:  First let me say, Mr. Commissioner, that looking at the selection of applications and the number of various frequencies that have been applied for, we don't feel that we are hamstrung with the frequency that the Tardifs applied for.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1264              If we were granted approval but had to seek out another, we would turn that over to our engineering consultants who I am confident would find a good alternative for us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1265              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  If a licence was issued to your group for Grande Prairie later this year, when would Grande Prairie see a new radio station from your group?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1266              MR. SINGER:  It would be our intention to put this radio station on the air as quickly as possible for the very reasons that Mr. Fabro alluded to.  We have to increase our critical mass and do it quickly.  So there would be no point in delaying this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1267              I would say as quickly as we could get studios built and equipment installed, we would be on and at the outset perhaps 8‑12 months and possibly earlier depending on, again, the availability of our technical resources to be able to put this operation on the air as quickly as possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1268              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Anecdotally, I have heard in Edmonton it can take up to two years to get a house built just because there is so much demand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1269              Mr. Fabro, you are in the construction industry, I understand.  Do you anticipate any form of difficulty in Grande Prairie?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1270              MR. FABRO:  Having not studied the housing market in Grande Prairie, I can't really comment but given our interest in home‑building, both single and multi‑family, I think I would probably have a better chance of providing accommodation for any of our employees than other broadcasters that don't have that ability.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1271              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  And would your construction company be preparing these studios or would you be leasing or have you determined that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1272              MR. FABRO:  In the projection it is actually leased.  The option to purchase is probably something we would favour because we are long‑term investors in real estate.  So we would have to look at that when we get the licence if we were so lucky.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1273              MR. TARDIF:  To add to that if I may, when we put in the application, considering that we are from the area and when people from the Falher area move to a bigger centre, three out of four times it is to Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1274              So I do have the resources in terms of knowing people and knowing businessmen in the city of Grande Prairie that would be able to lead us to a tip if we were stuck for a place to lease or build.  I can definitely contribute to Gene's efforts on that one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1275              MR. FABRO:  And in our Whitecourt operation we have purchased the studios there, a standalone building that we will occupy and own for our station there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1276              COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, thank you, Mr. Fabro, Mr. Singer, Mr. Tardif, panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1277              Mr. Chair, those conclude my questions at this time.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1278              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Williams.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1279              Mrs. Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1280              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you, gentlemen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1281              Mr. Singer, you said in your initial 20‑minute talk this morning, and you repeated it again with Commissioner Williams, when you were talking about radio stations per capita and you referred to Penticton and Timmins and I think you referred to other ones in your supplementary brief.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1282              Can you tell me about the ownership issue though in Penticton and Timmins?  How many ‑‑ is it two and two owned by one company?  Is that the kind of configuration or what is the configuration?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1283              MR. SINGER:  I am really not certain of that, Commissioner Cram, but perhaps Remi, who gave us that information in the application, would know that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1284              MR. TARDIF:  Right.  I do believe in Timmins it is two and two.  I believe it is the Haliburton Group out there.  In Penticton, it escapes me at the moment but I do believe it is a two and one operation with a corporate owning the two and the other one being either an independent or a smaller operator.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1285              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And I think you referred to Brandon in your brief, did you not?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1286              MR. TARDIF:  Yes, I did.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1287              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  And that, again, is ownership of two and two, right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1288              MR. TARDIF:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1289              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I wanted also, Mr. Tardif, to ask you specifically, at Appendix 4.4 under your financial assumptions, you refer initially to "appropriate above average compensation for on‑air and news staff."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1290              MR. TARDIF:  Mm‑hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1291              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And I then divided 15 into $47,000 ‑‑ I am the mathematician on the panel sometimes ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1292              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  ‑‑ not a good one ‑‑ and I come up with a little over $3,000 average salary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1293              Can you tell me what your calculations were in that?  Like did you add a percentage, 10, 20 per cent, or how did you do that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1294              MR. TARDIF:  I took the staff of 15 ‑‑ and having to remember as well that at the time the application was put together there would be doubling up of managerial duties as the owner had we continued with me and my father under 109 and continued that way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1295              So there would be doubling up of salaries and allowing for, I guess, leeway on that level.  So if the numbers look a little off from what you are used to seeing, it would be based on the doubling up for those responsibilities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1296              In achieving those numbers, the positions were listed off and given an amount for each salary and then added all together.  So the $47,936 you see for the salaries is the addition of the unique positions added up as opposed to an average and then given a certain percentage for bonuses and such.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1297              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So for example, if you used an announcer ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1298              MR. TARDIF:  Mm‑hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1299              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  ‑‑ you looked at what you paid them in or were going to pay them in Whitecourt and you added a percentage or something or how did you do that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1300              MR. TARDIF:  I essentially had a list of the staff.  For an announcer, for example, if he is an evening guy, I had an amount, whether it be $2,000 or $2,200, and I added the salaries together.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1301              If the Commission wishes, I can provide them with a list of the specifics on that later on today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1302              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Well, I was just wondering how you found the appropriate above average compensation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1303              MR. TARDIF:  Mm‑hmm.  This probably goes back to the recruitment appeal that Gene and Ken were talking about earlier, how bigger operations are sometimes having trouble in today's world of broadcasting because there are people that just don't want to work for a big operation but have trouble working for a smaller operation due to the financial restrictions being offered by a smaller organization.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1304              So I am aware of the salary ranges for Grande Prairie and Fort McMurray and northern Alberta as I have worked in many northern Alberta markets and I based on my experience a list of appropriate salaries ranging within what the norm is and added a certain amount to take care of the appropriate above average compensation.  So it wasn't a percentage, it was more of an extra amount onto every salary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1305              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And is this one of the expenses, Mr. Singer, that you think are conservative?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1306              MR. SINGER:  I certainly do and I know Gene wanted to offer a comment as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1307              MR. FABRO:  Yes.  I guess with Remi's estimate of expenses, some of the categories that he has listed there are low, some are high, but we weren't overly concerned on the detail of where he placed his funds in the budget categories but we thought the overall estimated amount of expense was reasonable, perhaps slightly low but not unreasonable.  So that is why we thought that this was a reasonable application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1308              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Because of the $100,000 contingency?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1309              MR. FABRO:  Part of that, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1310              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  Because it is not ‑‑  So in your estimation of the costs, what would the true staff cost be for 15 FTEs?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1311              MR. SINGER:  Commissioner Cram, I don't have that specifically but I do have, I guess, a total figure that I think that perhaps we would have to inject somewhere in the neighbourhood of another $200,000, maybe up to $300,000 here ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1312              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  In expenses?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1313              MR. SINGER:  ‑‑ in operating expenses in comparison to the Tardifs' submission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1314              If the Commission would like us to do so, we certainly could offer you a financial projection on that basis and file it at a very soon date.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1315              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  What, Mr. Fabro, would you say is the cost of commercial space in Grande Prairie now?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1316              MR. FABRO:  I am guessing but all in gross it would probably be in the order of ‑‑ annual per foot would probably be in the order of $15‑$18 lease rate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1317              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  And in a year's time, what do you think it would be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1318              MR. FABRO:  Well, that is the annual rate per foot.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1319              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right, okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1320              How much of your programming will be voice‑tracking?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1321              MR. SINGER:  I believe that is on the submission.  Remi, I will let you refer to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1322              MR. TARDIF:  As indicated in the deficiency reply, the indicated amount of voice‑tracking ‑‑ I guess it wasn't in there.  It was in the original application.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 1323              MR. TARDIF:  I do have 101 hours, I believe, and 125 hours; 101 would be live, 24 would be voice‑tracked ‑‑ oh, here it is on page 31, Appendix 7.6.  Live‑to‑air 105 hours and voice‑tracked would be 21 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1324              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Twenty‑one?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1325              MR. TARDIF:  Twenty‑one, yes, for a total of 126 hours per week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1326              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Will there be any other programming not produced locally?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1327              MR. TARDIF:  No, 100 per cent will be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1328              COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1329              Thank you, Mr. Chair

LISTNUM 1 \l 1330              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1331              Mr. Langford.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1332              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1333              I want to ask a few follow‑up questions as well on the subject of programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1334              It may be me.  I looked over your application and supplementary brief, I listened to your responses this morning and I am still not quite sure, in fact I am not even close to sure, frankly ‑‑ as I say, that may be my problem but you will help me with it ‑‑ how you get to 14.4 hours per week which seems to be the total number.  I see 6.9 hours of news.  I assume that is news, weather and ‑‑ I don't know how much traffic reports you need in Grande Prairie but whatever.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1335              MR. TARDIF:  You would be surprised at the number of accidents on a daily basis in that town.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1336              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Probably all in the same place though.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1337              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Can you help me through it?  Can we just break the 14.4 hours ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1338              MR. TARDIF:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1339              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  ‑‑ so I have a better understanding of how you are going to fill it, please?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1340              MR. TARDIF:  In the 14.4 ‑‑ as well, I have it broken down in Appendix 10.4 for the news and it breaks down the number of minutes per newscast and the overall scope of what the news will look like.  The remainder would be 6.9 per cent ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1341              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  6.9 hours for the news, right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1342              MR. TARDIF:  6.9 hours for the news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1343              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I got that part.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1344              MR. TARDIF:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1345              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It is the remainder I don't quite understand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1346              MR. TARDIF:  The remainder, part of that, as mentioned before, is the Sports Shop Talk which takes care of one of the hours of the remainder and the rest is guaranteed talk, if you will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1347              If you are live, have people announce, not stick with two breaks an hour and have at least ‑‑ and that is what I did.  I went with a minimum of three breaks per hour at a minute break ‑‑ I am not saying that it has to be limited to three minutes ‑‑ and five minutes in the morning show and the afternoon show and with that I mathematically did the entire week and that is where I came up with that number.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1348              And the spoken word content of that, on top of the sports, on top of the news, would include the traffic reports, would include information on the artists and the music, would include what people have done over the past week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1349              As you have heard, Grande Prairie is in the Peace country.  The Peace country is a vast area.  I drive 500 klicks around the Peace country on a daily basis when I am up there just to get from point A to point B and weather being very important to the verbal content of the station, many people do many different things due to this vast variety of activities that you can do.  You can go fishing at the pond.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1350              So the announcers under the leadership of Radio CJVR, where they excel at talking locally about events, local people doing extraordinary things, would be the primary source of the verbal content of the spoken word.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1351              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I don't want to be critical here but this could be categorized as what we call happy talk, right?  I mean how about those Oilers, didn't they do great, and where were you, I was fishing in the pond this weekend.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1352              I am trying to nail this down in the sense of spoken word programming because for us the notion of local reflection, true local reflection is very, very important and to hear you in your opening statements that seems to be something that you agree with, the spirit of that sort of subject, and are carrying out in your other stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1353              Yet, wouldn't you agree that it is pretty tough for us to take on faith that essentially half of your spoken word content is just trust us, it will be there, it will be relevant, we are talking back and forth among the announcers, we are perhaps having a little monologue if there is only one announcer on?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1354              But I am having trouble nailing that down.  I mean I am sorry to go on but this is a highly competitive process you are in here today, this week.  There are a lot of people who want this prize and I hope the rest of you are listening ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1355              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  ‑‑ because it is a little hard.  You guys are the first to go ahead.  We will be tougher on the next bunch because they get to hear me rant at you now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1356              But this is a big prize and I for one would like to know precisely, more precisely what you are going to do with half of this spoken word commitment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1357              MR. TARDIF:  Mm‑hmm.  And it would be representative in a section ‑‑ as I mentioned, the formula that I created, three minutes per hour and in the mornings and in the afternoons five minutes per hour of talk, and you are going, well, what are you going to talk about for five minutes other than the Oilers and what is going to happen two days from now after everybody wakes up with a hangover.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1358              The community in Grande Prairie is filled with many organizations and although in the application it is not indicated, in the last half of every hour, the last minute of every hour, we will talk with Joe Blow from the Canadian Diabetes Association, Grande Prairie District, on the growing number of people with diabetes in the city.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1359              The CRTC, of course, demands a certain percentage of vocal content and I am not saying that you have to go with blind faith but there is, I guess, a history with Radio CJVR in ensuring that their announcers continue to reflect their community in their spoken word.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1360              MR. SINGER:  Mr. Langford, could I just ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1361              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1362              MR. SINGER:  Could I interject here?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1363              I agree.  I understand where you are going with happy talk but on our radio stations, on any given hour, I mean what we are really talking about here is about another four minutes an hour over the broadcast week of meaningful spoken word.  I can give you an example of four minutes as a minimum on our stations of meaningful spoken word.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1364              First of all, we do probably half of that in weather information, again, for the reasons that Remi related to.  We have a very mobile audience in these markets and certainly weather is very important to them.  At times in Grande Prairie I am sure traffic is important to them as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1365              But beyond that, these are logged features on our radio stations where we not only do community events and talk about things to get people participating in the community, these are logged and produced features in many cases and often include interviews with the organizers of those features.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1366              We do health and fitness features a number of times a day.  We are in a very agricultural community.  We do a great amount of ag reports and so on.  These are things that are meaningful to our listenership and in Grande Prairie I don't think we would be ‑‑ the list would be very short of things that we could not put into our programming that would be other than happy talk.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1367              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, gentlemen, I am going to give you some homework and I am going to give it to you with a little caveat, as we used to say.  This is a competitive process and it is not fair to allow you to change your application, obviously.  So if you come romping back with some homework with whole half‑hour blocks of new programming, I think we are going to have to take that with a grain of salt.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1368              But I would like you in one of the upcoming phases ‑‑

‑‑‑ Ping sound / Bruit de sonnerie

LISTNUM 1 \l 1369              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I don't know, somebody just scored somewhere ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1370              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  ‑‑ or an angel just got his wings depending on whether you remember that movie.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1371              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I would like you, in one of the upcoming stages as appropriate, to give us a little more hard and fast detail on the sort of things you just listed, community events, health and fitness, ag reports.  If this is actually part of your modus operandi, if this is the way you run your radio stations, I think we would like to know just a little more about that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1372              Because essentially what you are saying to me today ‑‑ and I don't mean to be critical ‑‑ but what you are saying could be reduced to this, there is enormous scope out there for local information, and we agree, but I would like to know a little bit more about how you might present that to us and how much time because really you have presented us with only a 50 per cent breakdown of a promised amount of local programming and it is simply not enough to leave it to our imaginations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1373              So we will leave it there now.  We have a long agenda ahead of us today but I for one would very much like to hear more about that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1374              If I could just give you one more caution.  You mentioned on‑location broadcasting.  If there is going to be meaningful spoken word in there, I would like to know more about it.  Simply because you are on location at a Ford dealership, an old person's home, a community hall, a county fair doesn't necessarily mean your morning show or your drive‑home show is going to be any different, it is simply going to be somewhere else.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1375              So if that does give you an opportunity in your other types of broadcasting to present something in the sense of unique local programming, I for one would like to hear about that, other than the fact that you are just coming from a different location.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1376              Those are my questions, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1377              Thank you very much, gentlemen

LISTNUM 1 \l 1378              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Langford.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1379              How long will it take you to prepare a document to meet the requirement of Mr. Langford?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1380              MR. SINGER:  We would be able to file that to you by next week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1381              THE CHAIRPERSON:  By next week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1382              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, that is not going to ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1383              MR. SINGER:  Okay.  Well ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1384              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I would like some ‑‑ personally, to be fair to the other applicants who are here and might want to respond or have some sense, can you do it by Phase III?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1385              MR. SINGER:  I understand.  We can do it.  We will work on it today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1386              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You don't have to watch the hockey game.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1387              MR. SINGER:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1388              COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Come on!

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1389              MR. SINGER:  We know who is going to win.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1390              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So can you file it as soon as it is ready?  We are planning to have Phase III sometime on Wednesday.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1391              So if you can have the document filed with the secretary as soon as you can, say, sometime by tomorrow then so other participants can consult it and the members also.  When we come to Phase III, they may have questions and they will be capable to ask questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1392              MR. SINGER:  We will be happy to do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1393              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1394              I have a few questions.  My first one has to do with ‑‑ and you already answered if the market could support more than two new stations.  Obviously, I remember that you said that the financial numbers were not healthy regarding Grande Prairie and you said that if it was to be the wisdom of the Commission to grant more than one licence, then you will hold to the licence you have been granted.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1395              If the Commission was to license more than one, what would be the impact on your business plan and can you describe the adjustments you will have to undertake in order to be successful?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1396              MR. FABRO:  I guess, as Mr. Singer pointed out earlier, we believe there is room for one station in the market.  If the CRTC were to grant two licences, we certainly wouldn't turn down the opportunity if we were one of the licensees, and then that would probably be predicated on your knowledge of the market and given that you were to grant two licences, we could probably compete in the market.  We would be able to compete in the market based on what was assumed to be a larger revenue figure than we actually estimated

LISTNUM 1 \l 1397              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Will you need to make some adjustments to your business plan in order to meet the challenge of having another competitor?  If that competitor ‑‑ if the Commission were to grant Newcap and yourself a licence, you are both for the same format, what will happen?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1398              MR. SINGER:  I think if the Commission was to grant two licences and they were identical formats, I would be very surprised, first of all, because of the intent to bring some diverse musical choices to the market.  But because format is not a part of regulation we certainly anticipate that that could happen to us any place at any time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1399              I think our option faced with head‑to‑head competition, same music format, is that we would have to pursue a different music format and certainly I think there are other choices.  I mean we have offered our best choice.  We would have to do further research and determine what is going to work in the marketplace because no one is going to win splitting a format down the middle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1400              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And if I remove Newcap as a group that has been granted a licence but if we were to grant a licence to any of the other applicants, which one will have the most negative impact on your business plan, which format, which group?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1401              MR. SINGER:  That is a difficult question to answer.  I could tell you one which would have the least impact would be one that isn't going to be doing a similar format and certainly perhaps a lower power or a specialty format wouldn't have the same impact on a mainstream format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1402              From the point of view of being competitive in the marketplace, as I mentioned at the outset, I don't think there is any level of competition that we can't compete with.  I think we can offer a product that will give us a reasonable share of the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1403              Given that the market would change substantially from what we see there now, we would have to regroup and say what is our best strategy to compete against now another new radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1404              So I think those are answers that will come after we kind of know the marketplace in terms of what we are up against.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1405              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, I want to focus more on the demographic that you gave, the 25‑44.  Say that you are the Program Director of the new station and you are meeting your on‑air staff, what will you tell them?  What is the listener that you are looking for?  Is it a man or a woman mainly?  Obviously, it is going to be both of them but overall it is going to be more male, I think.  It is located more towards male, I would suspect.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1406              MR. SINGER:  I will let Remi start on that and then I will join in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1407              MR. TARDIF:  Okay.  If you look at the current situation in Grande Prairie you have got a country station and I guess a rock‑leaning hot adult contemporary station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1408              If you look at those two stations on the scope, you have one format on one end and the other format on the other.  Normally, rock is more male‑oriented, country is more female‑oriented, but seeing the largely agriculture sector of the province Grande Prairie sits in, I would say it would be 50‑50 on the country side.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1409              Seeing those two formats on both spectrums, I think that Classic Hits has a prime opportunity to sit right in the middle at a 50‑50 looking at the potential for diversity in the Grande Prairie market.  Seeing CFGP station and CJXX being there, the Classic Hits format would be a nice little fit on a 50‑50 level.  I do believe the research indicates Classic Hits is a 50‑50 split in most cases and that would cater to a nice section of the demographic

LISTNUM 1 \l 1410              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And what would be the median age of that listener?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1411              MR. SINGER:  We anticipate in the 30‑33 age group would be a median age

LISTNUM 1 \l 1412              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So thirty‑one and a half?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1413              MR. SINGER:  Mm‑hmm.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1414              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1415              Legal counsel, any questions?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1416              MS MURPHY:  Just to confirm the date at which you will submit the breakdown of the spoken word.  By the end of the day tomorrow, would that be ‑‑ is the agreed date?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1417              MR. SINGER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1418              MS MURPHY:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1419              Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1420              MR. FABRO:  Mr. Chairman, can I just clarify something or add to our comments with regards to the market size?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1421              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1422              MR. FABRO:  We can give you a little bit of a breakdown of how we determined the market size and why we think there is opportunity for one station.  Unfortunately, we don't know, we can only estimate what the two operators are taking out of the market now.  So it is difficult for us to know for sure the room in the market and certainly we trust the CRTC to decide that because you have some "inside" information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1423              But let Mr. Gemmell please outline to you what our rough‑cut calculations are for the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1424              MR. GEMMELL:  When we determine the advertising dollars that are available, we use basic formulas for all the markets we have been investigating.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1425              Total retail sales for Grande Prairie for 2006 are estimated to be $1.08 billion.  Four per cent of that determines the total advertising pool for all forms of advertising and then we take between 10 and 14 per cent to create the radio ad pool.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1426              So in the case of Grande Prairie, again, the Financial Post total retail sales is estimated to be $1.08 billion.  That leaves a 4 per cent advertising pool of $43.2 million and we estimate that the radio pool for Grande Prairie is probably in the 12 per cent ‑‑ take the middle point ‑‑ or about $5.2 million.  I think we are low based on what we have seen in some of the applications as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1427              We feel the minimum amount that the Pattison Group and the O.K. Group combined are taking is at least $3.5 million, which still leave a million and a half dollars on the table potentially for one or even two more new operators.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1428              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1429              Mr. Singer or Mr. Fabro, I am giving you now two minutes to tell us why the Commission should grant you a licence to serve Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1430              MR. FABRO:  Maybe I will ‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1431              THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is going to be your conclusion remarks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1432              MR. FABRO:  Pardon me

LISTNUM 1 \l 1433              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Those will be your concluding remarks.  There will be no further questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1434              MR. FABRO:  Okay.  Perhaps I will just start and let Mr. Singer finish.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1435              As you know from when we started in our dissertation here today, my family has all Albertans, all born in Alberta other than my father who immigrated from Italy.  We have a very strong work ethic.  We believe in the things we do.  We have a very good reputation in all the businesses we run.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1436              We are not large market broadcasters but we do believe that our small market brand of radio is the radio that is needed in Grande Prairie.  We can deliver something that large market people don't do.  We deliver local fabric of the community type radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1437              We are committed to our listeners in Saskatchewan and we have put a lot of improvements into our operations there, almost $3 million since we invested in that operation in 1991.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1438              We have great long‑term staff with us that can grow our operations and we rely on those staff to hire further staff to create a small broadcast organization committed to the type of broadcasting we do in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1439              Buying versus building, it is a lot cheaper.  Anybody that is in business knows that when you buy a business you have to pay certain multiples of cash flow.  It is a lot cheaper for us and for small broadcasters to build and that is the way we have to go.  We don't have deep pockets.  We are not a public company.  The big broadcasters that come from the outside that are public or have huge shareholders, they can buy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1440              I think that in these small market opportunities where we play the best, we would like to build and we would like the new licence in Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1441              MR. SINGER:  Mr. Commissioner, I would like to just close by saying thank you for the time here today and the opportunity, especially under these unusual circumstances.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1442              Just let me say that I believe that Grande Prairie needs the kind of radio station we could bring to that market and as importantly, I think Canadian broadcasting needs players like Radio CJVR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1443              I certainly sometimes question where our business is going.  It is all I have done all my life and I see the big getting bigger and I wonder what the future of our business is if new players such as Radio CJVR are not allowed opportunities to grow their critical mass.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1444              So I ask you to consider that and I thank you again for your time

LISTNUM 1 \l 1445              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Thank you, Mr. Fabro, Mr. Singer, Mr. Gemmell and Mr. Tardif.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1446              We will take a 15‑minute break.  We will get back at 20 past 11:00.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1107 / Suspension à 1107

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1126 / Reprise à 1126

LISTNUM 1 \l 1447              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1448              THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1449              We will now proceed with Item 2 on the agenda, which is an application by Allan Hunsperger, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial specialty radio programming undertaking in Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1450              The new station would operate on frequency 96.3 MHz (channel 242C1) with an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts (non‑directional antenna/antenna height of 256.6 metres).

LISTNUM 1 \l 1451              Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Allan Hunsperger, who will introduce his colleagues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1452              You will have 20 minutes for your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1453              Mr. Hunsperger.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 1454              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, Members of the CRTC staff, thank you for allowing us the privilege of coming before you today to share with you why we would like to have an FM Specialty radio licence for the City of Grande Prairie, Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1455              With me today are, to my far right, Bev Gillespie, our Business Manager; and next to her is Jamie Moffat, our Edmonton Sales Manager.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1456              To my left is Malcolm Hunt, our Network Program Director, and next to him is Hollie Taylor, one of our on air staff members.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1457              Seated behind Malcolm is Dionne Smith, Shai Awards representative, and next to Dionne is Chris Ferneyhough, Ipsos Reid representative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1458              Attached to the end of our presentation document is a seating chart for ease of identifying members of our panel.  Also attached is a typical program schedule and a chart illustrating our plans for our extended news coverage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1459              As you know, we have been in the radio business since April 3, 1994, when we turned the power back on at AM 930 CJCA here in Edmonton.  Its previous owner had shut down the station.  Since then you have granted us additional licences for FM stations in Edmonton, 105.9 CJRY, and in Calgary, 88.9 CJSI.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1460              When we first started out we quickly discovered that there was a very loyal audience for our niche Gospel format.  We are very thankful that we are here today, not only to tell you that financially the business is seeing light at the end of the tunnel but also that we are committed to establishing Gospel music stations in as many cities as possible right across this great country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1461              This is why we are here applying for licences to serve Grande Prairie and Fort McMurray.  We have also filed applications in response to the Commission's recent calls for Regina and Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1