TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

                          SUBJECT:

Various Broadcast Applications/

Plusiers demandes en radiodiffusion

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

Westin Edmonton Hotel                 l'Hôtel Westin Edmonton

10135 100th Street                    10135, 100^e rue

Edmonton, Alberta                     Edmonton (Alberta)

June 20, 2006                         Le 20 juin 2006

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

                 Transcript / Transcription

Various Broadcast Applications/

Plusiers demandes en radiodiffusion

BEFORE / DEVANT:

Michel Arpin                      Chairperson / Président

Barbara Cram                      Commissioner / Conseillère

Rita Cugini                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Ronald Williams                   Commissioner / Conseiller

Stuart Langford                   Commissioner / Conseiller

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Chantal Boulet                    Secretary / Secrétaire

Joe Aguiar                        Hearing Manager /

Gérant de l'audience

Anne-Marie Murphy/                Legal Counsel /

Shari Fisher                      Conseillères juridiques

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

Westin Edmonton Hotel             l'Hôtel Westin Edmonton

10135 100th Street                10135, 100^e rue

Edmonton, Alberta                 Edmonton (Alberta)

June 20, 2006                     Le 20 juin 2006

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

                                                 PAGE / PARA

PHASE I (Cont.)

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

Bear Creek Broadcasting Ltd.                      304 / 1984

Sun Country Cablevision Ltd. (OBCI)               351 / 2194

Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Ltd.                 417 / 2495

Vista Radio Ltd.                                  491 / 2785

Crude Communications Inc.                         543 / 3120

Standard Radio Inc.                               618 / 3564

PHASE II

INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:

Crude Communications Inc.                         667 / 3865

               Edmonton, Alberta / Edmonton (Alberta)

‑‑‑ Upon resuming on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 at 0834 /

    L'audience reprend le mardi 20 juin 2006 à 0834

LISTNUM 1 \l 1 \s 19791979             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good morning.  Good morning, everybody.  Well people watched that game last night because they are still resting.  Obviously, they didn't have too big a party, but we do from our own end our best.  But that being said, we can move with the rest of the agenda and calling the meeting open and I am asking the Secretary to call for the next applicant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11980             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11981             We are now at Item 5 on the agenda, which is an application by Bear Creek Broadcasting Ltd. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11982             The new station would operate on frequency 103.3 MHz (channel 277C1) with an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts (non‑directional antenna/antenna height of 256.6 metres).

LISTNUM 1 \l 11983             Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Ken Truhn who will introduce his colleagues.  You will then have 20 minutes for your presentation.  Mr. Truhn.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 11984             MR. TRUHN:  Thank you.  Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, CRTC staff, good morning.  My name is Ken Truhn and I am the President and majority shareholder of Bear Creek Broadcasting Ltd.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11985             Before beginning our presentation I would like to introduce the other members of our panel.  On my far left, to your right, is Mr. Alec Houssian who is one of Grande Prairie's most prominent business people and whose corporate group represents one of the biggest users of radio advertising in the market.  Mr. Houssian has been a retailer in Grande Prairie in excess of 30 years and has seen firsthand its significant population expansion and market growth.  His family owns and operates Nevada Bob's, Action Sports, Ed's Menswear, Town Centre Furniture as well as numerous commercial properties.  Last summer Alec was able to gather some very important feedback for me as to the acceptance of our format within the local business community while I was putting together my application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11986             On my immediate left sitting next to Mr. Houssian is Mr. Brian Nash who, along with being my best friend and partner in Bear Creek Broadcasting, is also a prominent businessperson in Grande Prairie.  Brian owns a travel and tour business, a shopping centre, a trailer park and numerous other holdings.  Brian, it should be noted as well, was also a recipient of the Governor General of Canada's Commemorative Medal in recognition of his contributions to multi‑cultural student exchanges between Alberta and Quebec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11987             To my immediate right is Mr. John Yerxa who is our Research Consultant and advisor on this project.  I have been involved with John since the mid 1990s when he first began to work with Monarch Broadcasting and over the years John Yerxa Research has conducted numerous programming and advertiser research studies for me in Grande Prairie.  During my long tenure at CJXX I feel that John played a pivotal role in the success of that station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11988             Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, we are now ready to begin our presentation.  Once again, my name is Ken Truhn and I have spent all of my adult life, the past 27 years, in the radio business.  Within the past year, however, I elected to walk away from a very successful job with one of the larger broadcast groups in order to pursue a dream that has been growing inside of me for many years.  Today, I appear before you as a 55 per cent shareholder in Bear Creek Broadcasting Ltd. with my best friend and business partner, Brian Nash, who owns the other 45 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11989             Brian and I formed this company to further my goal of owning a radio station in Grande Prairie, the community where I have spent the majority of my life and where I have spent the majority of my broadcast career.  Brian and I have both invested heavily in our community.  We have been involved in bringing many excellent events to the Grande Prairie area and have supported numerous local initiatives along the way.  Brian was instrumental in bringing the Royal Bank Cup, the National Junior Hockey Championships, to Grande Prairie in 2004.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11990             More recently, I played a prominent role in securing the 2006 Ford World Women's Curling Championship for our city.  This event, which I just finished chairing in March, was the most successful world women's event ever held in terms of attendance and bottom line return.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11991             Currently, Brian and I both serve on the Crystal Centre Advisory Board, which provides expertise and direction in the operation of our community's largest entertainment and sports complex.  Brian is also a sitting member of the Airport commission and the provincial tourism board and I am completing a six‑year term on the Hospital Foundation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11992             Suffice it to say, for many years Brian and I have spent a great deal of our time supporting the terrific community that we call home, Grande Prairie, Alberta.  Together, we also own and operate one of the Peace Country's largest tourist attractions, Telus Country Fever, an annual country music festival which has featured just about every Canadian country act in existence.  It has showcased many new Canadian artists as well as established ones, several of whom have written letters of support for our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11993             As far as my background in radio is concerned, my career actually began in Fort St. John in 1978 as a sportscaster.  I moved back to Grande Prairie where I did news for a year before moving into the sports director's role at CFGP, now known as SUN FM.  In 1980 I was promoted into the sales department and spent 12 years in that role before accepting a job as the General Sales Manager with Radioseven in Red Deer.  After three and a half years I was fortunate enough to be transferred back to Grande Prairie as the General Manager of CJXX, which eventually became Big Country 93.1 and there I remained for 10 excellent years until a call for Grande Prairie applications was announced by the CRTC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11994             In the decade that I was General Manager at CJXX it became a top‑producing station in terms of bottom line profit for both Monarch and Pattison and for 10 years the station was continually recognized with both corporate families for its achievements.  Of course, while I was at Big Country, my responsibility encompassed both expense and revenue budgeting, so I have a firsthand knowledge of the market and the money available in it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11995             Members of the Commission, Grande Prairie is one of the most profitable radio markets in Canada, but it has been severely underserved in terms of radio for quite sometime.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11996             MR. NASH:  Members of the Commission, just before reviewing the economic situation in Grande Prairie, I want to quickly add a couple of points about Ken and our partnership.  Ken and I have known each other for over 20 years and we are not only long‑time business partners in the local country music festival, but the very best of friends.  We get along exceptionally well, even when we do not agree with each other and I have absolute trust and faith in his decision making ability.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11997             He is widely regarded in the business community as someone who will deal with you fairly, honestly and with integrity and his experience in Grande Prairie is a huge asset.  Ken also has extremely low staff turnover during his management of CJXX, which is a pretty good indication of how much the staff like working with him.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11998             The economic situation in Grande Prairie is red hot.  In 2004 the Grande Prairie housing market had a record year at 14 per cent growth.  In 2005 housing starts in Grande Prairie exceeded 1,000 units for the first time ever.  And so far, to the end of May, 2006, housing starts are up 83 per cent from 12 months ago.  Housing prices are now reported to have increased 30 per cent in the past year and in the past 10 years the cost of housing has more than doubled.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11999             According to last years' census Grande Prairie's population is 44,631.  However, expectations now suggest the city population will increase by over 15 per cent in just the next two years to approximately 52,000 by 2008.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12000             It has been reported that Grande Prairie's population is currently growing by at least 250 people per month after having been declared the second fastest growing city in Canada by CMHC in 2004.  The average income in Grande Prairie at approximately $70,000 is 15 per cent higher than the national average.  Retail sales are reported at 108 per cent above the national average.  Several retailers in our market continually ranked in the top five in retail sales in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12001             Grande Prairie serves an area of 250,000 people within a radius of 200 kilometres.  It has become a central shopping area for North‑western Alberta and North‑eastern British Columbia.  Millions of dollars flow over the B.C. provincial border into Grande Prairie from communities such as Dawson Creek, Chetwynd, Fort St. John and Fort Nelson.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12002             Our region is economically diverse.  Besides the booming oil industry we have a strong forestry presence featuring Weyerhaeuser, Ainsworth and Canfor, and agriculture represents a significant base as well.  All of these things now qualify Grande Prairie for more choices when it comes to radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12003             MR. TRUHN:  The last time a new commercial radio station started in Grande Prairie was in the fall of 1979 when CJXX hit the airwaves.  The population at that time was 20,427 people.  Today, the population has more than doubled and yet we still only have the two commercial FM stations.  If you are not a fan of country music your only alternative is Hot AC.  We believe the market is more than ready to support one, if not two, new radio stations adding diversity and choice to a listening public that definitely wants it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12004             I'm now going to turn the presentation over to John Yerxa, who will take you through the research data.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12005             MR. YERXA:  In the fall of 2004 my company conducted 400 random telephone interviews with adult, 18 to 54, radio listeners in Grande Prairie.  Once respondents were selected we first studied their listening behaviour, then probed their interest in five mainstream music formats and asked whether they could identify an existing local station delivering each one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12006             The two most important calculations we performed were to identify the percentage of listeners that expressed significant interest in each format as well as the percentage that could not associate a local FM radio station with each format.  By comparing these two results we were able to identify the largest musical hole or opportunity in the market simply by examining the trade‑off between popularity and availability.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12007             Obviously the more popular a music type is within the general population or target group the more economically viable that format will tend to be.  However, the most easily available a music type is perceived to be the less opportunity it will have to grow as a distinct format without cannibalizing another player in the market.  Therefore, suffice it to say that the more popular but less available a music type is the greater opportunity there is for that format in a given market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12008             Using this approach, we were able to determine that classic rock clearly represents the best format opportunity in Grande Prairie, as it registered the highest popularity of the groups we tested and was also perceived by adult respondents to be the most difficult music type to find on the local FM dial.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12009             MR. TRUHN:  You will notice that Mr. Yerxa's research highlighted the demand for classic rock, and yet I have positioned our proposed station as a classic rock/classic hits hybrid.  The reason I did this is because from the time when CJXX was owned by Monarch Communications I did extensive research in the marketplace with John and clearly understood that there was a hole for both formats.  But classic rock had long been the most noticeable void in the market in survey after survey and I simply wanted to reconfirm that fact with our research for this application, knowing that the crossover between classic rock and classic hits is well established.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12010             Indeed, at least one other applicant before you this week has suggested that their proposed format could be termed either classic rock or classic hits.  However, a combined classic rock/classic hits format, while focusing on the same era, would be somewhat broader in its appeal than just classic rock and would allow us to mix in a much greater selection of Canadian artists in order to meet our 40 per cent CanCon commitment as well as supporting even more local and regional Canadian talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12011             Looking at the overall play list, we would be co! 0834mbining classic hits artists like!?! Fleetwood Mac; Corey Hart; Don Henley; Joni Mitchell; Huey Lewis & The News; Glass Tiger; Men at Work; Alanis Morissette; Blondie; Toto; Doug and the Slugs; Loverboy and the Eurythmics with classic rock artists like the Rolling Stones; Tom Petty; Dire Straits; The Guess Who; Pink Floyd; Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young; Blood, Sweat & Tears; Peter Frampton; Bruce Springsteen; Rush, Van Halen; Bob Seger; April Wine; Santana; The Who and BTO.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12012             In terms of overall balance, we intend to position our format as 65 per cent classic rock and 35 per cent classic hits, given classic rock's stronger appeal amongst target listeners.  But, if asked by the Commission to choose between these two formats, we would definitely lean toward the classic rock position with classic hits as our second choice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12013             However, the real point worth making here is that the two largest and most profitable holes on the Grande Prairie radio landscape are classic rocks and classic hits as opposed to a format which is too current in terms of its repertoire.  If licensed, our station would undoubtedly have the support of many 25 to 54‑year old listeners, in particular 35 to 44‑year olds and the local business community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12014             We will also be bringing a new and independent information voice to Grande Prairie by placing significant emphasis on local news and information seven days per week.  Based on my long experience in Grande Prairie, I am well aware of the dependence our listening community places on local information and that explains why it is a staple element of our programming schedule.  Our station will provide a total of 143 newscasts from 6:00 a.m. to just after 11:00 p.m. seven days a week.  Moreover, the vast majority of our spoken word will be live, as we are planning to have our news readers deliver local news and information right up to 11:00 p.m. each weekday and up to 6:00 p.m. on Saturdays and Sundays.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12015             In total, we will have five fulltime news staff providing 12 hours and 15 minutes of news and information programming throughout the week, which I believe is a greater news and information commitment than perhaps any other applicant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12016             We will also support numerous community organizations which require radio's help, either with public service announcements or to help them achieve their fundraising objectives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12017             You will have noted from our application that we are proposing $60,000 annually in Canadian Talent Development initiatives for a total of $420,000 over a seven‑year period.  While this is not the largest of the CTD amounts presented before you at this hearing, please remember we are a small company looking to operate a single station.  Therefore, while a couple of the larger corporations should be applauded for their contributions to CTD, we believe that, relative to our size, we are making a significant commitment to Canadian Talent Development and our annual contributions will make a considerable difference in the lives of the recipients.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12018             I wanted to quickly review the six initiatives.  First, there is a $20,000 annual contribution to a scholarship fund at the Grande Prairie Regional College for students enrolled in fine arts.  This scholarship will be managed by a committee comprised of a representative of the station, the president's office at the college and the dean of the fine arts program at the college.  That committee will determine the recipients from year to year.  Second, there is a Prairie Art Gallery initiative in the amount of $10,000 per year, which is a direct cash payment to the six programs outlined in our deficiency response to the Commission dated December 5 of 2005.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12019             Third, there is our Community Development Foundation initiative, which calls for a $5,000 per year cash payment to establish a scholarship for First Nations students enrolled in the fine arts program at the local college.  The Community Foundation would manage this scholarship.  Fourth, there is a $5,000 initiative for Grande Prairie Little Theatre, which will be administered by them.  Fifth, there is the Evergreen Park Talent Explosion initiative, which is an existing talent competition we will support with a direct cash payment of $10,000.  This program will continue to run and be operated by Evergreen Park.  Sixth, we are choosing to support Summer Slam and Telus Country Fever, this initiative calls for an annual $5,000 contribution to each festival and all of this money will be used to pay for Canadian artists to appear on stage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12020             At this point, I would like to clarify a concern you may have with regard to the money proposed for Telus Country Fever, which is listed as Spilchen's Country Fever in the application but has undergone a sponsor change, hence the name change.  While the funds allocated to this initiative will be paid directly to Canadian artists, upon reviewing our application Brian and I realized that our ownership of the festival will pose a conflict in the Commission's mind.  Therefore, with your permission, we will immediately reallocate those funds directly to ARIA.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12021             Moreover, if there are any other CTD initiatives which we have outlined that are not acceptable to the Commission, we will immediately reallocate those portions to ARIA as well.  Please understand, however, that our overall commitment to CTD is meant to ensure that as many dollars as possible will be allocated locally, as we are firm believers in directly supporting the community which supports our business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12022             MR. HOSSIAN:  Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission, last summer after discussing the Bear Creek proposal with a number of fellow advertisers and business people in our community, I informed Ken that it will be a success.  With the feedback from a dozen or so business people I contacted suggests that the application will succeed because it attracts a large number of people who presently have no way of hearing the music they grew‑up with on the local dial.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12023             Many of the fellow business men and women are interested and are listeners because they cannot be reached that effectively through the existing stations in Grande Prairie.  Moreover, most of the business people told me they will support this station because of Ken's 24 years of radio service in our community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12024             MR. TRUHN:  Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, in summary, we feel that Bear Creek should be awarded a licence to operate a new FM radio station in Grande Prairie for the following reasons.  First, we believe our business plan is solid because it is based on good research, advertiser feedback and my knowledge of the market.  Second, we will be providing a distinct format to a market that is virtually screaming for it.  Third, we will bring a new information voice to the Grande Prairie region and our five fulltime news staff will be offering a significant amount of local news and information in excess of 12 hours a week to the local community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12025             Fourth, we will not only create 24 new jobs in the radio industry, but most importantly we will bring 24 new jobs, the most of any applicant before you, to our hometown.  Fifth, we will reflect our community and its cultural diversity.  Sixth, our CTD commitment, which we believe is impressive for a company of our size, will significantly benefit its recipients.  Seventh, we are independent.  In a speech not long ago to the BCAB, Chairman Dalfen emphasized the continuing importance of smaller broadcasters and we believe our presentation before you today upholds the ideals of that statement.  Eighth, not only are we independent, we are truly local.  Both Brian and I are long‑time residents of Grande Prairie and we are deeply invested in and committed to our community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12026             Therefore, approval of this application will not only bring a new independent owner, but a brand new local owner into the broadcast industry.  And ninth, I personally bring a great deal of broadcast experience to the table.  I have spent my entire adult life in the radio business and now I am following a natural progression through the ranks to this position.  I have always dreamed of owning and operating my own station in Grande Prairie.  I have the experience, the community support and the desire to undertake this challenge.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12027             Thank you for the opportunity to make our presentation and we are open for questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12028             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Truhn.  Commissioner Cugini.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12029             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Good morning and thank you for being here promptly despite last night's upset.  I guess I can now go back and cheer for my home team and we don't have to disclose the name of that team.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12030             My colleague yesterday did comment on how ‑‑ on the quality of the applications submitted in this proceeding and the quality of the presentations and certainly yours is no exception, but I do have some questions of clarification.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12031             The first set of questions I would like to ask you is in regards to your format, you describe it as a classic rock/classic hits format.  Yesterday I believe, it was Newcap who said that classic hits runs across a number of genres, whereas classic rock is more of a contained definition.  First of all, do you agree with that and, second ‑‑ let us answer that first, yes, do you agree with that definition of classic hits?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12032             MR. TRUHN:  I am going to turn that question over to John Yerxa.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12033             MR. YERXA:  Commissioner Cugini, may I first answer that by quoting directly out of the Newcap supplementary brief.  Page 8, the station might also brand itself as classic rock rather than classic hits:

"It will be slightly more classic rock than other classic hit stations."  "Fortunately, the two formats share a large number of artists and songs between them."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12034             Page 8, Newcap application.  I completely agree, the fact is that there is tremendous crossover between classic rock and classic hits.  There are a number of artists that are common to both formats, artists ranging from Queen; John Mellencamp; Journey; The Police; The Eagles; Don Henley; Canadian artists such as Neil Young; Loverboy; Brian Adams.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12035             Both of these formats are successful because they focus on the same era, basically the 1970s, the 1980s and the 1990s.  Now, there are some differences and variances depending upon the market that you are in.  You have some classic hit stations that focus more on the 1970s and the 1980s.  For example, a lot of work that I have done in the States, specific stations we deal with, are a lot more classic rock or 1970s, 1980s focused.  Other stations, for example, you had an applicant before you here at first that said we want to be more of an 1980s and 1990s radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12036             The key, however, is that these formats are successful because they target an age group, the 35 to 54‑year old listener that wants to listen to the music that they grew‑up with.  Particularly, in their late teens and early 20s, if you follow the impressionable years model of broadcast programming, which means particularly the average 45 to 50‑year old, someone who was around 20 years of age in the late 1970s early 1980s.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12037             Now, if you take a format like, for example, the Jack concept when they first launched, it was interesting because there was a tremendous amount initially with the format as they presented, which was the early to mid‑1980s.  Now, that may have seemed somewhat brilliant at the time given the hit/non‑hit parameters that we have to deal with in Canadian radio, but what was particularly smart about it was that they were focusing on the bulge or the peak in the baby boom population in Canada, which generally lags the U.S. by a few years and so they were appealing to that bulge in the population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12038             We have other formats like the Bonneville format I mentioned that are younger skewing.  So classic hits really it can lean more classic rock, depending upon the dynamics of the market, or it can lean more pop and even towards AC if there is a large rock or classic rock component available in the market.  So but let me just say that the statement that classic rock and classic hits are diametrically opposed, have no similarities, is absolutely wrong.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12039             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay, let us take out the ors in your sentence and can you please tell me what this application and what this radio station, if licensed, will focus on when it reaps music from the classic hits format?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12040             MR. YERXA:  Assuming that this radio station is the only one licensed, then obviously it would try and be as broad as it can be within the 35 to 54 demo, which means that our suggestion would be say 65 per cent classic rock, 35 per cent classic hits, approximately 40 per cent 1960s and 1970s, 30 per cent 1980s, 15 1990s, 15 year 2000 forward.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12041             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Within the classic hits?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12042             MR. YERXA:  Yes, within the ‑‑ it is about 65 per cent classic rock, 35 per cent classic hits, knowing that a lot of these artists crossover.  I gave you a list ‑‑ I mean, I could give you a..

LISTNUM 1 \l 12043             For example, if I may, we did an analysis of the Jack format when it first launched as it was picked up by Infinity in the United States and the top 30 most played artists on the Jack format were included among them at the top 30 U2; Journey; John Mellencamp; The Police, The Rolling Stones; Bob Seger; Steve Miller; Foreigner; Queen; Genesis.  Keeping in mind this was the format that really got this whole concept of classic hits moving.  And of course, if you look at what the 10 most played songs were initially when this format was presented in various markets, Journey ‑ Don't Stop Believing; Queen ‑ Another One Bites the Dust; J. Geils ‑ Centrefold; John Mellencamp ‑ Jack and Diane; Police ‑ Every Breath You Take; Joan Jett ‑ I love Rock `n' Roll.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12044             So once again classic hits, but as you can see, very very rock oriented in its initial application in these markets.  Keeping in mind, of course, that over time, depending up on the competitive dynamic of the market, you may adjust to move a little more this way, maybe a little more pop oriented, you may move a little more in terms of era, maybe a little more towards the 1990s if all of a sudden you have somebody who comes in and positions themselves as pure classic rock.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12045             But that, in a nutshell, is really what I am recommending to the client here, is if you are the only one licensed then a 65/35 split, knowing the dynamic, the make‑up of the market, the psychographic of the market, knowing that classic rock generally tends to skew a little more male and that up until this time looking at the existing players in the market, SUN FM has generally skewed more female, albeit at the younger end, whereas CJXX ‑‑ although, in our particular study they had a male/female split ‑‑ they generally have tended to skew more female.  So you have the two existing stations in the market which have generally skewed more female, hence putting more emphasis on classic rock would position you a little better in terms of the overall opportunity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12046             Now, of course, if you were to licence two stations in the market, it is a whole different ballgame.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12047             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And we will get to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12048             MR. YERXA:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12049             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So this radio station will not broadcast or will not include any contemporary hits, music, on its play list?  In other words, we are not going to hear Britney Spears or Madonna's new song or anybody else from 2000 on?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12050             MR. YERXA:  You will hear ‑‑ we say 15 per cent and, frankly, most of that if not all of it is CanCon.  Because given the significant commitments now that broadcasters are making, the 40 per cent CanCon commitment, the key now ‑‑ and really it is a win‑win I guess, because you are giving these new Canadian artists an opportunity, be they classic or say rock oriented or say hits oriented, giving them exposure on the radio.  But the key is that the challenge is you have to pick these artists that you can common thread and meld into the format without being schizophrenic.  And you are going to find that most stations across the country, whether they are classic hits, adult contemporary doesn't matter, we have these commitments, we live up to them and that freshens the format, because you can't play April Wine to death.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12051             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.  You did say in your opening remarks that you are committed to 40 per cent Canadian content?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12052             MR. TRUHN:  Yes, we are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12053             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And you will accept that as a condition of licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12054             MR TRUHN:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12055             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.  Based on your research, and you mentioned it this morning as well, you did say the classic rock was the most popular, but you didn't ‑‑ did you ask the question about classic hits?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12056             MR. YERXA:  No, I normally do that.  And as you can appreciate, I deal with numerous clients across the country and at the time that Ken contacted me it was a very short phone call and he just said I want you to do a study, we have done a lot of work in the market, here is what I want to test, I want to be as distinct as I can, let us do classic rock, let us do country, let us do adult contemporary, you know, let us do the top..  In other words, he said to me here is what I want to do, we know what the market.. but confirm this for me, is this the best opportunity and so that is what we did.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12057             Of course, I didn't even know at the time really what he was after.  I didn't know he was, you know, because he is not going to tell everybody in the industry that he is maybe going after a licence, he was probably testing the waters and so that is what we tested.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12058             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And based on that then can you tell us why you did add classic hits?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12059             MR. YERXA:  Well, we had done numerous research studies and we had done a lot of qualitative research as well and we knew about the crossover and I suppose that was probably as much my fault in the sense that when there was a call for the applications and I said to Ken are you going to be going after this.  I had just said to him offhand, you know, if you are going to go for it and you get the licence you should be as broad as possible.  And given the success of the Jack and Joe formats, although more Jack because it is more rock oriented, you know, you may want to consider being a kind of a hybrid format.  So I may have thrown him off in that regard, but certainly we confirmed the classic rock format as being the best opportunity in the research.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12060             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And your suggestion was made after you conducted your research?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12061             MR. YERXA:  Well again, I didn't ‑‑ remember, I  just get calls from people and they say just do this, do that, study this and six months later he said guess what, I am going to go after a format in Grande Prairie and that study you did for me, I am going to use that as a base and what do you see, based on your knowledge of what is happening across the country, what do you think we should do if we were successful.  And so that is what I suggested he do, to branch out.  But, as I said, if you were to licence two stations there is going to be a mad scramble to see who gets on the air first.  And, of course, the first one in is going to ‑‑ I would recommend position themselves one way and then, of course, the other one is going to have to react.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12062             Now, heaven knows if all of a sudden SUN FM decides to flip format in the next six months then, of course, all bets are off and that is the reality of this business.  But the key, of course, is that in that market it will be quite possible for anybody to find a very distinct and very meaningful hole to fill.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12063             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Well, since you have now raised the question twice, I will take this opportunity and perhaps ask you, Mr. Truhn, how many radio stations do you believe the Grande Prairie market can support?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12064             MR. TRUHN:  New radio stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12065             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  New radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12066             MR. TRUHN:  Two for sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12067             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And do you believe that one format over another would be more or less successful?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12068             MR. TRUHN:  Well, as John alluded to, I believe that the classic rock format, if I had to choose between the two, would be the more successful of the two choices with classic hits as a second choice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12069             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  We have an application before us for a gospel radio station, as you may have heard yesterday.  Do you believe that ‑‑ or what do you think if we were to licence them plus two?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12070             MR. TRUHN:  As far as the listening audience goes, I don't think that that would be a significant factor.  Obviously, anytime you put another player into the market in terms of the revenue side of things, you know, that will play a bit of a factor, but overall I don't see that as a big challenge in the market place.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12071             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay, we will now move onto the specifics of your application and the area of spoken word and your commitments.  In your application I believe you committed to 10 hours of news, weather and sports and six hours of PSAs and liners.  And then in response to deficiency questions you said it was nine hours of news, weather and sports and three hours of PSAs and liners.  Could you tell us what your commitment is to spoken word?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12072             MR. TRUHN:  Absolutely.  In the supplementary brief where I outlined nine hours that was simply a mistake, it should have read 10.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12073             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So and in the area of PSAs and liners?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12074             MR. TRUHN:  Well it is six, but I also included a 24‑hour clock there, so from 6:00 a.m. to midnight I committed to a minimum of 10 hours of news and spoken word, plus three hours of PSA, the other three hours would have run between midnight and 6:00 and I realize that, you know, we are talking about a 6:00 a.m. to midnight time clock.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12075             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.  Now, in terms of the news, weather and sports you also ‑‑ you repeated it today I believe..  Sorry, can you remind me of how many newscasts?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12076             MR. TRUHN:  One hundred and forty‑three.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12077             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  What is the length of those newscasts?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12078             MR. TRUHN:  They vary anywhere from three and a half minutes to seven and a half minutes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12079             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And does that include weather and sports?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12080             MR. TRUHN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12081             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And in terms of local news, of those three and a half to seven minutes how much of that will be local?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12082             MR. TRUHN:  Seventy‑five per cent of the news will be local, 75 per cent of the sports and obviously 100 per cent of the weather.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12083             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And the other 25 per cent will be national and international stories ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12084             MR. TRUHN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12085             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  ‑‑ when they break?  Thank you.  In the area of CTD your presentation this morning was very clear in outlining your commitments to Canadian Talent Development.  You are proposing a $20,000 annual commitment to the Grande Prairie Regional College fine arts program?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12086             MR. TRUHN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12087             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And that is for a scholarship program?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12088             MR. TRUHN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12089             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  How many scholarships are you planning or how many scholarships is the college planning on offering with that $20,000 annual contribution?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12090             MR. TRUHN:  A minimum of four, you know, and that would depend on the quality of the applications that were received for it each year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12091             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And will you have any participation in selecting who ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12092             MR. TRUHN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12093             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  ‑‑ would receive those scholarships?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12094             MR. TRUHN:  There will be a member of the radio station, likely myself, sitting on the selection board.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12095             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And the $10,000 per year to Evergreen Park for sponsorship of their talent exposition, do you have a budget breakdown on how that $10,000 will be spent?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12096             MR. TRUHN:  That money was to go directly to the winners of the competition, the top five, you know, broken out, you know, appropriately with more for first place obviously and less for last place, but directly to the winners of that competition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12097             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And will you participate at all in the selection of the winners of that competition?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12098             MR. TRUHN:  No, that will be done by an independent panel, as it always is with that contest.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12099             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay, thank you.  And if we are to accept your initiatives in Canadian Talent Development as you mentioned today with the relocation of funds from the Telus Country Fever to ARIA you will accept that as a COL?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12100             MR. TRUHN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12101             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.  Now in terms of your business plan, despite what you may have heard yesterday, you are one of the highest in terms of your projections for revenue from the market.  I do appreciate your comments today on how much you know the market and your experience in the market, but could you give us the rationale for your revenue projections?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12102             MR. TRUHN:  Well obviously, because of my experience, I know what the money being spent on the two incumbents is each year.  I have also done some research in regard to what Peace River Broadcasting is taking out of the marketplace and what the standard stations are getting out of the marketplace.  I was able to derive a total of approximately $8.6 to $9 million somewhere in that range as it existed a year ago.  My understanding is is that we haven't gone through a recession in Grande Prairie, so that number is likely a little bit higher, closer to the $9 million I would estimate in the radio market at this present time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12103             I was around in 1979 working for COG when CJXX came on the air.  There was some concern at that time, you know, from the original radio station that advertisers would cut, you know, their marketing budgets in half or at least not spend as much with them.  And the truth of the matter was the market expanded significantly and COG saw a huge increase in advertising revenues that very first year.  I suspect that it won't be quite the same with the addition or a third and/or fourth radio station, but I do expect that the market will expand by a little in excess of 10 per cent, I think it will be a $10 million market, you know, once this all shakes out.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12104             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And so your projections were obviously based on one more, just one?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12105             MR. TRUHN:  Our business plan was derived based on one more applicant being added to the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12106             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  By how much would you reduce your projections if we were to licence two?  A percentage, just give me a percentage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12107             MR. TRUHN:  You know, I would have to say around 15, 20 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12108             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Around 15 per cent?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12109             MR. TRUHN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12110             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay, thank you.  As you know, there are more than one frequencies available in the market.  Have you done a study to determine whether or not any of the other frequencies, other than the one for which you have applied, would suffice or would meet your needs?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12111             MR. TRUHN:  We haven't done an actual study, no.  But obviously, there is a wide range of frequencies available and certainly if we had to choose another one there are more options in the market that would, you know, suit our needs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12112             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And so another frequency would be acceptable to you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12113             MR. TRUHN:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12114             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  There are just ‑‑ sorry, there is one more question I forgot to ask and perhaps, Mr. Yerxa, you could answer.  In your presentation this morning you did say that your target audience is 35 to 44‑year olds?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12115             MR. YERXA:  The broad target is 35 ‑ 54.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12116             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12117             MR. YERXA:  Are you looking for a median age?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12118             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Well, your presentation this morning, if licensed our station would undoubtedly have the support of many 25 to 54‑year olds listeners ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12119             MR. YERXA:  That's the broad target.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12120             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  ‑‑ in particular, 35 to 44.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12121             MR. YERXA:  Thirty‑five ‑ 54 actually.  So it is ‑‑ 35 ‑ 44 is probably the core, you know, that is your 10‑year sweet spot.  But if you are going to play more classic rock, it is going to skew a little higher, 35 ‑ 54.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12122             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And you anticipated, yes, and so what is the median age of your listener?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12123             MR. YERXA:  Let us give it a 42.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12124             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Male or female?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12125             MR. YERXA:  Skewing more male with the classic rock component.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12126             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And when you mix in the classic hits format?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12127             MR. YERXA:  It is going to be skewing more male because we will be two‑thirds classic rock hopefully.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12128             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay, thank you.  Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, those are all my questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12129             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Commissioner Cugini.  Commissioner Langford.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12130             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12131             I want to go back to this question of your format.  And without seeming in any way rude, I don't need anymore enthusiasm, I got the picture that you really like it and you think it is going to do it.  What I am trying to find out is how you would react, in a strategic sense, should we be licensing you and someone else very very close?  And I think you touched on it ‑‑ John is the first name, I can't remember the second name, sorry, this gentleman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12132             MR. YERXA:  John is fine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12133             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  John, okay.  Well, it doesn't look too good on the record if we are all on a first name basis does it?  Yerxa, that is it, thank you, sorry.  Later in history you will say gee, these two brothers were handing licenses out to each other.  We don't like that image here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12134             It is almost difficult for me to phrase this question, though I have had time to think about it since your very interesting description.  But there are about five other applications in front of us which have chosen, at least in their words and in their descriptions, something very very similar.  Pattison, O.K., Crude, a number of them anyway.  So what happens if we licence, for example, you and one of them?  And just for the sake of argument, I am looking for a strategy now, we happen to licence the one that is as close to your chosen format as possible, what do you do?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12135             MR. YERXA:  Okay, there are ‑‑ first of all, I know there are three applicants that Ken would definitely be hurt by or threatened by.  There are three applicants and I know you are going to ask him that in a few minutes, who would hurt you.  He can deal with that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12136             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Well, you might as well name them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12137             MR. YERXA:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12138             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Helps us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12139             MR. YERXA:  Do you want me to name them?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12140             MR. TRUHN:  Well obviously, if we were granted a licence, you know, the most harmful effect to our business plan is going to come from the two incumbents and from the standard stations which are Standard, which has stations in Fort St. John and Dawson Creek and, you know, would have an opportunity to leverage in ‑‑ in the marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12141             MR. YERXA:  So having said that, assuming one of the incumbents doesn't get it and create an imbalance, unless of course you want to give both of them that which may happen, but it really doesn't matter.  The key ‑‑ unless you want to make, format a COL and that is not in the cards, so therefore get on the air, scramble as quickly as you can, position yourself and number two in they position themselves accordingly and everything will shake out.  And you have seen that happen in numerous markets and, of course, you also recognize that upon licensing an incumbent could even switch and muddy the waters, so it really doesn't matter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12142             We have identified a couple of very profitable opportunities in the market.  The key is get on the air, get there first.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12143             MR. TRUHN:  I might add, Commissioner Langford, if we were in the position where we lost the race to get on the air first, obviously we are going to have to ensure that whatever format we choose is appropriate for the market.  So we would do ‑‑ you know, we would conduct some more research and be absolutely sure of what that second position is, you know, given the circumstances and whatever the first one on the air chose as a format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12144             MR. YERXA:  And that is a very important point, because I was quite interested in hearing at one of the other ‑‑ well, another one of the incumbents state that, you know, if you give us a licence well we are going to take our existing station and move this way, which I don't think is great news for Standard in their application, because that is where they are going to move.  They want to become more mainstream AC pop.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12145             But that is what may happen, whether you give them a licence or whether you give someone else, assuming that rock hole is filled, then that existing station may have to adjust accordingly to narrow their focus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12146             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Is there a scenario that would cause you to have to make more than an adjustment, in other words more than an even kind of a tuning?  In other words, you just have to choose a whole new market niche?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12147             MR. YERXA:  If one of the ‑‑ let us assume one of the incumbents, heaven forbid, says I am going after one of the ‑‑ well, this is great research everybody has brought forward and let us do it, that is a huge hole, we didn't really realize it was there.  If they switch, they are going to create an opportunity and some hybrid opportunities around whatever they vacate.  The market is big enough.  There is two stations.  You know, at any given time you have probably got four mainstream formats that are available and, generally speaking, regardless of population, so..

LISTNUM 1 \l 12148             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So you can adjust is what you are saying, even to a dramatic encroachment on your plans, on your plan territory there is still room out there for you to come up with a new plan?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12149             MR. TRUHN:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12150             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.  Now, let me just go back, Mr. Truhn, to your response about the kind of nightmare scenario here.  And I am going to give you a piece of good news and then I am going to give you a piece of bad news, but it is all hypothetical.  I am just trying to figure out, because you have the Grande Prairie experience and it kind of gives me the notion that you could probably respond to this almost better than anybody, with the possible exception of the two incumbents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12151             Assume for a moment, hypothetically, that we licence you, but assume as well that we licence the two incumbents, nightmare scenario.  So they each got two FMs, maintain some kind of balance.  But we want to bring a new voice in.  So we have two incumbents with two stations each, synergies, market power, all that stuff you know about, and then you because we want to bring diversity to the market or we want to encourage a new player.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12152             I am kind of painting this scenario pretty quickly off the top of my head.  But what I am looking for is how you would react to that, if you could react to it, could you survive, could you thrive in a scenario like that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12153             MR. TRUHN:  I think, obviously, in that scenario that would be about as bad as it could get.  Do I think I could survive?  Absolutely.  I have a strong base in the community and I think that, you know, would stand me in good stead.  Would it be tough?  There is no question.  You know, I had some experience in Red Deer when I was the general sales manager there for RadioSeven in a situation that has been corrected recently of where we were a standalone AM station against an FM and a country AM station and it is extremely tough.  It is very competitive, it tends to affect the price of the product and not in a positive way, but they obviously survived.  And I believe, you know, given my experience in Grande Prairie, we would survive as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12154             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thanks very much.  I don't want to give you nightmares, but I just ‑‑ you might as well go to the extreme, in a sense, to get your reaction and then pull back from there and, you know, as I said you are on the ground, you are there, you know the area and if you think it can be done, I mean, that is something we have to take into consideration.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12155             Those are my questions, Mr. Chair, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12156             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Commissioner Langford.  Picking up on your last reply, if you were or if the two incumbents would get each an FM licence and you are to get one and obviously, as you said you got to be..  Will that impair your ability to do the local news and the spoken word and local programming or where will you make the cuts?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12157             MR. TRUHN:  Well, you know, given that situation I think we would, you know, review our whole business plan obviously.  We are committed to our news and spoken word programming, it is a big deal in markets the size of Grande Prairie.  They rely on the radio stations for all of the local information and relevant news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12158             I think obviously we would have to look at our, you know, at our staffing in a situation like that.  The news department is not an area that we would cut dramatically because it is still a key element in our programming.  We would look for, you know, other areas long before we looked at that area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12159             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12160             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12161             I wanted to ask a couple of questions.  Thank you very much for the part that starts off with your broadcasting staff grid.  And you started in the first page talking about no automation during the broadcast week.  And so, just to be fair to you, would you accept that as a COL that you would be live‑to‑air during the entirety of the broadcast week?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12162             MR. TRUHN:  Yes absolutely, unless Commissioner Langford's worst case scenario came into play.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12163             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So that is where you would start making the cuts, would be the live‑to‑air issue?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12164             MR. TRUHN:  We would have to definitely take a look at automation in some areas of the day for sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12165             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Secondly, you were talking with my colleague, Commissioner Cugini, about a minimum of 10 hours news, but this actually shows ‑‑ your newscast grid, the third page of that shows a total of ‑‑ oh Lord I didn't add it ‑‑ nine, 10, 11, 12 ‑‑ oh yes, 12 hours and 15 minutes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12166             MR. TRUHN:  Yes, it does.  I think if you look at our application when we originally wrote it I said a minimum of 10 hours each week.  Once I actually developed the grid it worked out to 12 hours and 15 minutes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12167             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  So and when I look at it it goes up to 11:00 at night both during the week and on the weekends?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12168             MR. TRUHN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12169             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Do any of the incumbents do this?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12170             MR. TRUHN:  To the best of my knowledge..

LISTNUM 1 \l 12171             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You don't listen to them?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12172             MR. TRUHN:  I am a rabid fan of country or of country radio in Grande Prairie based on my experience but, yes, I listen to them both.  To the best of my knowledge Big Country provides it for a longer period of time up until at least 11:00 I believe.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12173             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12174             MR. TRUHN:  It is not always live, but it is there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12175             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay, I get your point.  And there has been a fair bit of talk about the incumbents.  I guess I need to know, given that we have on more than one occasion licensed the incumbents in order to keep a competitive balance, why should we not do that in this case?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12176             MR. TRUHN:  Well, I think if you licence the two incumbents you certainly do keep a competitive balance for them.  It doesn't necessary add as much diversity to the marketplace as you would by licensing two new players.  And I think that, you know, there has to be some opportunity for independent broadcasters to get into this business.  And whereas the two incumbents would probably like that, I certainly wouldn't.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12177             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12178             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Commissioner Cram.  Well, we are almost to the end of your appearance and I will give you two minutes to sum up and tell the Commission why you should be granted the licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12179             MR. TRUHN:  Thank you.  I am not going to reiterate all the points I made at the end of our oral presentation.  I just have a quick quick summary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12180             I know the Commission appreciates independents like us participating in this process, after all the industry has become extremely consolidated in recent years.  At the same time I realize you probably hear this kind of statement from those of us vying for a licence against the larger broadcast companies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12181             Here is what I truly think differentiates me from some of the other independents.  I won't be appearing before you in the Fort McMurray hearing, nor will I be appearing before you in the upcoming hearings in Medicine Hat, Regina or Saskatoon.  Grande Prairie is where my life is, has been and it is where it is going to continue to be.  Having spent 27 years in the broadcast business I guess I put it all on the line this one time to pursue a career dream in the community that I grew‑up in and I would respectfully ask you for that opportunity.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12182             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  The legal people have a question for you.  I apologize, I should have asked them before, but here we are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12183             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I want you to know that the rest of us are not illegal though.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12184             MS MURPHY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12185             Just a clarification with respect to your commitment by condition of licence for Canadian content Category 2 musical selections.  We would like to confirm that that commitment relates both to CanCon throughout the broadcast week as well as for the period from Monday to Friday 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12186             MR. TRUHN:  Yes, it does.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12187             MS MURPHY:  Thank you.  Those are my questions, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12188             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Truhn.  Thank you to your people.  We will take a 10‑minute break and we will move to the next item.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 0931 / Suspension à 0931

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 0947 / Reprise à 0947

LISTNUM 1 \l 12189             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12190             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12191             We are now at Item 6 on our agenda, which is an application by Sun Country Cablevision Ltd. on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Grande Prairie.  The new station would operate on frequency 103.3MHz (channel 277C1) with an effective radiated power of 100,000watts (non‑directional antenna/antenna height of 256.6metres).

LISTNUM 1 \l 12192             For the record and in response to the Commission's questions, the applicant has filed documents updating the ownership information relating to Sun Country Cablevision Ltd.  These documents can be viewed on the application file which is in the examination room.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12193             Appearing for the applicant today is Mr. Ted Pound, who will introduce his colleagues.  You will have 20 minutes for your presentation.  Please go ahead.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 12194             MR. POUND:  Thank you.  Good morning.  Mr. Chairman, commissioners and Commission staff, my name is Ted Pound.  I am the President of Sun Country Cablevision, I am a founding director and shareholder of Sun Country Cablevision, which serves communities of Salmon Arm, Enderby and Armstrong in British Columbia for the past 21 years.  Details of my 30 plus years of senior broadcast experience are noted in the application, not including the recent award of the Alberta Centennial Medal for outstanding community service by the Province of Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12195             On my far right is Walter Gray and on my left is Ron East, both are founding directors, shareholders of Sun Country and past Presidents of the British Columbia Association of Broadcasters.  Between the three of us we have more than 110 years of radio business experience in small and medium markets.  The fourth of our Sun Country directors is Mike Hall on my immediate right, the youngest son of the late Bob Hall.  Mike was one of the inaugural employees of Sun Country Cable and has earned his way through the ranks to become the company's General Manager and now Managing Director.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12196             Mr. Gray is a former Mayor of Kelowna.  Initially, Mr. Gray and Mr. Bob Hall established and operated radio stations in Salmon Arm, Revelstoke, Kelowna and established a mini radio network in the adjacent West Kootenay.  Mr. Gray has been the President of the Chamber of Commerce, Director of the CAB and Radio Bureau of Canada.  He received the BCAB Broadcaster of the Year Award in 1993.  For eight years he served as board member of Telefilm Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12197             Mr. East has had a significant radio career and a background, specifically working out of Prince George where he and the late Stan Davis established a radio company that services 18 communities in central British Columbia.  Mr. East is very involved in his community and he was instrumental in the founding of the University of Northern British Columbia in Prince George.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12198             The other members of our panel, on my far left is Elder Angie Crerar, President of the Métis Nation, Grande Prairie.  Elder Crerar is Canada's most recent recipient of the Governor General's Caring Canadian Award.  In the back row we have Mr. Mel Brundige, Media Consultant, with over 30 years broadcast experience in radio sales and management.  Mr. Brundige is a Radio Bureau of Canada CMM, that is a Certified Marketing Manager, and has served on the Radio Executive Committee of BBM for over 13 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12199             Mr. Howard Foot, Media Consultant, is a broadcast veteran with over 40 years of sales, management and ownership experience in Canadian newspaper, radio and television companies.  Mr. Don Turri, CACFP, is a partner with MacKay LLP Chartered Accountants and Chairman of MacKay LLP Partnership, a firm with offices throughout British Columbia, Alberta and the Northwest Territories.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12200             Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, I would be pleased to start our oral presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12201             Mr. Gray, Mr. East and I formed our business alliance over 35 years ago.  The three of us share the values of radio excellence and outstanding community service.  We believe that there is a remarkable opportunity Grande Prairie to introduce our founding principles of community radio excellence, relevant radio with a big community heart, radio that Grande Prairie citizens have invited us to bring to their growing community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12202             To assure that the Sun Country community service vision is focused and relevant in Grande Prairie, it is our commitment to establish a community advisory board.  We are committed to the development and support of local Canadian music talent under the guidance of a knowledged professional in the business of Canadian and international music development.  Our classic rock format, along with a strong commitment to news and spoken word, are well researched and targeted for the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12203             MR. EAST:  My career has been involved with small and intermediate size radio markets for over 50 years.  I have observed many similarities between central British Columbia and Northern Alberta.  The dynamic growth that Grande Prairie has experienced shows no signs of slowing, the result is an extremely rich radio advertising market at Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12204             Later in our presentation Mr. Brundige and Mr. Foot will focus your attention on their findings, both from their statistical review and their one on one interviews of local Grande Prairie merchants.  What exists before us today is a two‑radio station market serving a trading area of 120,000 and there is no local TV station which would normally be in existence in a market this size.  And there are resident sales persons in Grande Prairie whose job it is to sell advertising for the Dawson Creek and Fort St. John, B.C. stations and the nearby Peace River radio stations.  There is also a resident salesperson selling for CFRN TV out of Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12205             The Grande Prairie broadcast advertising market is significant for the population size.  We firmly believe there is plenty of room to establish at least one other local radio station at Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12206             MR. POUND:  Sun Country is proposing a classic rock FM radio station for Grande Prairie with a heavy emphasis on community news, sports, features and events.  Our radio station will be the voice for local community groups and musicians to promote awareness and showcase their talents.  We will reflect the spirit of this diverse and growing community by involving local groups, organizations and individuals.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12207             Radio listeners currently have limited listening choices.  Our music format will fill the void.  Our music format will consist of a mix between classic rock and new rock with a 70/30 percentage split.  The blended music will average a minimum of 35 per cent Canadian content, 40 per cent in the new rock category.  Research we have done on the market supports our classic rock format.  We are targeting an audience that skews slightly higher male between the ages of 25 and 54 with our core audience 35 to 44 and our median age is 39.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12208             We are committed to contributing over $735,600 in cash and in‑kind local support to Canadian Talent Development; $231,000 is in cash, $504,000 is in‑kind support.  We will support the small market Canadian Association of Broadcasters, Canadian Development Plan initiative with $21,000 in cash over the period of a licence that will be directed to the Alberta Recording Industries Association Canadian Talent Development.  Our CTD plan includes college scholarships, talent searches with airtime support and available digital studio production time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12209             Grants to local musicians and a regular air schedule to support local Canadian talent.  This commitment includes 21 30‑second commercials per week showcasing new Canadian album releases.  Sun Country is a member of ARIA, the Alberta Recording Industries Association, whose mandate is to support excellence, diversity and vitality of American artists and the Alberta recording industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12210             To help coordinate our Canadian Talent Development commitments Mr. Neil MacGonigill, President of Indelible Music Inc., has agreed to join our community advisory board.  Neil has spent over 35 years nurturing and developing and guiding the careers of Canadian artists such as Jann Arden, KD Lang, Paul Brandt and Ian Tyson.  The experience has given him a unique perspective pertaining to the challenges and opportunities that lie ahead for a new generation of Canadian music talents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12211             We are aware of our in‑kind support will not qualify in CRTC terms of Canadian Talent Development, but believe the dedicated initiatives are significant and bring value to our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12212             Our morning show, like all on‑air programs, will be focused on what is important to our listeners of Grande Prairie.  Our news, sports, weather and road reports will be focused on providing local information first.  We will employ three fulltime news staff members plus local stringers to cover the issues that are important to our community.  During an average week in the category news‑related surveillance we will commit 313 minutes of news, weather, road reports and sports.  We will broadcast 58 separate newscasts with sports highlights.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12213             In the general interest spoken word category we will commit to 316 minutes that will include a five‑minute Aboriginal program twice a week.  As part of our commitment to the local sports and recreational groups within that community we plan to recognize and salute the local volunteers, the coaches and athletes through a weekly program called Local Heroes.  Providing over 30 years of airtime during the week for this program in a series of 60‑second features.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12214             Black Gold will highlight the history and events of the oil patch in a daily 60‑second feature that will air 21 times during the week.  We will focus on the agricultural community with a daily 60‑second feature aired 21 times a week.  Our daytime programming will be live from 6:00 a.m. until 6:00 p.m. throughout the work week, 10:00 a.m. until 6:00 p.m. on Saturdays and 10:00 a.m. until 2:00 p.m. on Sundays to start, but we plan to add more live programming as the station matures and grows.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12215             At the heart of every community are non‑profit community groups working with thousands of volunteers.  Our goal is to give them free access to our airwaves on a regular basis to promote their fundraising events, ask for volunteers and raise the level of awareness in the community for their cause.     As apart of our commitment to the local community we are offering free access to our airwaves through a 60‑second feature that will run once an hour, 24 hours a day, over two and a half hours a week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12216             When 103.3 signs on the air we will also launch our 103.3 Grande Prairie Children's Charity, Children Are Champions.  The charity will focus on raising funds to help children in the Grande Prairie area.  A non‑profit organization will be set‑up to raise those funds then distribute them to needy organizations, families and projects.  Our community advisory board will screen and evaluate the many different organizational projects submitted that deal with children in the area.  Whether it is a new playground, expenses for families to travel to larger centres for health treatments or simply paying for children for financially‑challenged families to participate in recreational activities, we will make a difference to Grande Prairie families.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12217             We are committed to working with the Grande Prairie Community College in the development of a local radio broadcast course that will develop local broadcasters and broadcast journalists.  We will actively support the broadcast practicum programs of other Alberta broadcast schools in all facets of our operation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12218             MR. EAST:  Now to the market dynamics of our proposal.  We will review the potential advertising dollars available from the market, the basis of our projections, the sources of new radio revenues and unusual revenue circumstances of this very buoyant market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12219             Mr. Foot will now review the attitude of the business community toward the idea of a new Grande Prairie radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12220             MR. FOOT:  I have been involved in local media sales for the past 40 years, 26 of those years in local radio sales.  As a result of 43 in‑person interviews that I conducted over a year ago in Grande Prairie with that business community I identified the following factors.  Number one, the rates charged by the two local stations were felt to be too high.  Number two, the advertisers want to spend more money on radio, but the local stations are sold out much of the time.  Number three, there is a general feeling that the stations are operating as fat cats.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12221             Number four, with the tremendous economic health of the market more and more companies are moving into Grande Prairie and this puts even more strain on the amount of airtime available to businesses for advertising.  Number five, the Friday edition of the local Herald‑Tribune newspaper is loaded with flyers and is of the size that you would expect in a much larger market.  Number six, the major reason for optimism is that 76.7 per cent of the businesses that I talked with are definitely in support of another radio station in Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12222             In summation, I would just like to say that if I was 30 years younger I would love to sell advertising for Sun Country's new radio station for Grande Prairie, because I feel it would be a very successful career.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12223             MR. EAST:  Mr. Brundige will now review the distribution of new advertising dollars and the results of a statistical approach to this radio market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12224             MR. BRUNDIGE:  I am here today to give you some background on the revenue projections I prepared for the Sun Country application.  The projections were prepared using two methodologies.  As a percentage of retail trade in the county and from per capita spending on radio advertising in Northern Alberta, which was obtained from a special Statistics Canada report, both methodologies indicated a radio market of approximately $5 million, this is for 2004, which is a reasonable number for a market the size of Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12225             Both methods, however, suffered from the disadvantage of using average numbers from wide geographical areas and applying them to a small geographical area, the County of Grande Prairie.  A visit to the market lead me to conclude that it was an extremely hot market undergoing frantic growth that would probably continue for a number of years.  A restaurant I went to had only half its tables opened because they could not hire enough staff to service the entire restaurant.  The hotel I stayed in had a list of job fairs on its happening this week board that indicated three to four a day for the next seven days for various companies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12226             Projecting revenue with any degree of accuracy in a market situation such as you find in Grande Prairie is very difficult.  But I concluded that, based on my previous research in the extremely hot marketplace, that a number in excess of $6 million was probably correct for 2004.  I worked in Prince George in the 1960s when it was a very hot market and I knew that the radio revenue would be very high for two reasons, every ad campaign would work and the retailers were making so much money that normal percentages went by the wayside and ad budgets of 6 and 7 per cent would not be uncommon as opposed to the normal 3 to 3.5.  For these reasons, I regarded the revenue projections contained in our application as very conservative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12227             Now that we have reviewed the revenue projections from the incumbent broadcasters' applications for second broadcast licences, we know that our projects were very conservative.  It is documented that the current value of the market is in excess of $8 million.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12228             MR. GRAY:  During our survey of the Grande Prairie market beginning 18 months ago and, in particular, since numerous visits beginning last fall, all four of the Sun Country directors have played a hands‑on role in developing and seeking support and input for our application, talking with community leaders and learning about the needs and opportunities in the Grande Prairie region.  The fact that there are 10 applicants for radio licences demonstrates that growth in the region, the sustainable economy and the geographic advantage this community has says volumes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12229             In the April issue of MoneySense Magazine Grande Prairie is ranked number four in all of Canada in a survey of Canada's best places to live based on measurable criteria.  In the specific category of population growth Alberta really cleaned up, Calgary is number one for Canada, Red Deer is number two and Grande Prairie ranked number four.  Grande Prairie is ninth highest in the nation for household income.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12230             As an independent applicant, an experienced communications company very committed to service to the community, Sun Country will be a fresh new competitive choice.  We firmly that this citizens and advertisers of Grande Prairie deserve and will support more choice.  Our research with community leaders tells us that a new station needs to offer more local news coverage and to work to connect the community and to offer a fresh new music format so that there is more choice and diversity in the marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12231             Our anecdotal findings are that there is an important role for local radio in the fight against crime and in education with regard to drug abuse, particularly amongst youth and young adults.  To that end we met a number of times with the RCMP and with the City of Grande Prairie Crime Prevention Coordinator.  We have discussed specific programs to deal with many of the social challenges of a growing community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12232             In speaking with Elder Angie Crerar, who is with us today, President of the Métis Nation, we learned that radio is the most effective medium to inform and connect the Aboriginal community.  Sun Country is committed to meet that challenge.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12233             We want to broadcast the Grande Prairie Storm Junior A hockey games.  We have a letter on file with the Commission from the business manager of the team following our meeting with the manager/coach of the Storm expressing interest in our desire to do those broadcasts, it is win‑win and it adds remarkably to community spirit.  Frankly, we are surprised that the games are not being broadcast.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12234             In a letter on file with the Commission from Persona, the Grande Prairie cable company, let me quote Persona's President, Mr. Dean MacDonald:

"The affinity between local cable television and local radio is strong.  We currently work with another local licensee and would welcome the opportunity to work with others."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12235             He goes on to state:

"The radio experience and community track record of Sun Country principles is exemplary.  They understand the opportunities that exist in a fast‑growing market like Grande Prairie and have agreed to work closely with Persona to ensure residents are well served with local information and entertainment.  We encourage you, the CRTC, to award the licence to this applicant."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12236             And the Mayor of Grande Prairie stated in his letter:

"The City of Grande Prairie supports the efforts of Ted Pound in pursuing the opportunity of a new independent locally‑operated FM radio station for Grande Prairie."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12237             Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, Grande Prairie Mayor, Wayne Ayling, expresses exactly our intentions, to be a new independent, locally‑operated radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12238             Reference was made in Mr. Pound's opening comments that Sun Country has established a community advisory board.  On numerous market visits in developing our community advisory board we identified key community leaders who will assist our vision of bringing relevant radio to Grande Prairie.  The community advisory board will have direct input to management, they will be our additional eyes and ears of the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12239             The members of the community advisory board include Elder Angie Crerar, President of the Métis Nation representing the Aboriginal community; Dr. Scott McAlpine, PhD., Dean, Faculty of Arts, Science and Education at Grande Prairie Regional College; City Alderman, Bill Given, owner of a media design company, age 29, the youngest person ever elected to council; Neil MacGonigill, President of Indelible Music, his principal focus and responsibility will be in the development of local talent; Jackie Clayton, President of the Grande Prairie Chamber of Commerce and local retailer businesswoman; Alderman Dwight Logan, local businessman and highly involved in local service organizations, he is a former two‑term mayor and is currently serving his third term as Alderman, his principal interest is having more local news reporting on local media; Karen Gariepy, the City Program Facilitator for the Community Action on Crime Prevention; Constable Scott Haggerty, the Community Crime Prevention Officer for the Grande Prairie RCMP.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12240             It is the intention of Sun Country to add three or four additional members to the community advisory board.  We will seek a youth member, someone to represent the arts community and other areas of importance that the committee may recommend itself.  Sun Country is committed to connecting with the Grande Prairie community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12241             I would now like to introduce one of the members of our community advisory board, Elder Angie Crerar.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12242             MS CRERAR:  Thank you, Walter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12243             I am happy to be here today in support of the Sun Country FM radio application for Grande Prairie.  I am impressed with Sun Country's interest and commitment to advance the interests of the Aboriginal community of Grande Prairie and region.  I am honoured to be a member of the Sun Country Radio community advisory board.  I can assure the CRTC that I will advance the interests of the Aboriginal community and I will also work to advance a positive relationship between the Aboriginals and the non‑Aboriginals.  I look forward to my role on Sun Country's Community Advisory Board.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12244             MR. POUND:  We at Sun Country are a small group of experienced and passionate broadcasters who believe in local community radio, the kind of radio that listeners and advertisers alike trust.  We want to bring diversity and grassroots radio to Grande Prairie.  We are committed to using our knowledge, experience and passion for local radio in creating a new corporate citizen that the community of Grande Prairie can be proud of.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12245             Thank you for your attention.  We are available for questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12246             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Pound.  Could I draw your attention to your page 9 of your presentation this morning?  You said that the blended music mix will average a minimum of 35 per cent Canadian content and you added that it will be 40 per cent for new rock music.  Am I right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12247             MR. POUND:  Yes, that is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12248             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Was it part of the application or it is something that you just added on this morning?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12249             MR. POUND:  Sorry?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12250             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Was it part of the application per se or is it something that you added this morning while you were making ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12251             MR. POUND:  We were clarifying that segment.  Part of our application said 35 per cent and the segment of the ‑‑ said more than 35 per cent actually ‑‑ was clarifying that the new music portion of that format would exceed 40 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12252             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Because I also noticed that throughout the presentation ‑‑ not throughout the presentation, but in some instances you added some information that were not in your written oral presentation ‑‑ to say written oral presentation, but..  But the things that you have added are also all part of the written submission?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12253             MR. POUND:  Yes ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12254             THE CHAIRPERSON:  They were, okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12255             MR. POUND:  ‑‑ and support letters to support that too.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12256             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Fine.  I am asking Commissioner Williams to ask the questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12257             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good morning, Mr. Pound and Sun Country panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12258             Would you like the questions addressed through yourself, Mr. Pound, or through your General Manager?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12259             MR. POUND:  Probably direct them to me and I will redirect them through the panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12260             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, thank you.  Well, we will begin in the area of gaining a better understanding of your proposed music format and how it differs from the other competing classic rock, classic hits and soft AC formats being offered and then specifically looking for why your proposed format would best provide Grande Prairie adult males, 25 to 44, with a superior level of programming diversity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12261             Nine of the 10 competing Grande Prairie radio applications, including yours, are proposing to serve the Grande Prairie market with mainstream commercial FM music formats.  These formats are, in broad terms, classic rock, classic hits and soft AC adult contemporary.  As is the case with your application, most have identified adult male listeners in the 25 to 54 age group as being underserved by the two incumbent stations in the market.  As an applicant in the competitive process, we assume that you have reviewed the other applications.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12262             You have identified the 25 to 44‑year old male listener as the core audience group you would target with your proposed blended classic rock/new rock format and contend that this is the principal audience group that is underserved by the existing Grande Prairie radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12263             I am curious about Grande Prairie's adult female listeners in the general 25 to 54 age group, and I am curious in a professional not a personal way.  Would you also characterize women in either age group as being underserved in the current market or do you feel their needs are being met by either the existing CHR station, the country station, or perhaps even an out‑of‑market station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12264             MR. POUND:  I think our response in that area is, a general response first of all, the market is underserved with quality radio and the diversity of formats. Your specific question is in regard to the female members of the marketplace.  No, I don't think they are being properly served entirely.  There is a real opportunity to bring quality radio.  In this case, when you look in our application, find the format finder, you will see the various targets that they identified.  And the format that we are proposing, the classic rock format, although it does skew slightly to the male side, it does offer full coverage to male and female and I think they will be properly served.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12265             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Concerning your proposed format, could you explain to us why you feel your format rather than say classic hits, soft AC or even a gospel music format would be the better choice of format to serve the Grande Prairie market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12266             MR. POUND:  Again, I will refer back to the format finder.  We spent quite a bit of time researching the market to determine what was most applicable and would be best received in the marketplace.  And as you have heard from other applicants already and you will hear from more applicants as we go forward, generally everybody has targeted that format with skews to the left or skews to the right.  I think that supports our view on it too.  We will probably get into this question, if there are more than two applicants we have some views on that too.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12267             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I am sure you appreciate that there are five other applicants proposing the same format as we have just been discussing.  While you provided some additional format information in your presentation, I wonder if you can expand that information.  What, in your opinion, are the compelling differences, if any, between your proposed format and the five other classic rock type formats that would make your format the best choice to add programming and musical diversity to the market?  What sets your programming above and beyond the others?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12268             MR. POUND:  I think our format goes beyond music.  Our format, as alluded to earlier yesterday, is a lifestyle.  In our experience in the various communities we have worked radio in British Columbia.  Radio stations were much more than music.  Music became the cement or the mortar of building the brick or the wall of the radio station.  The strength of our format targets a marketplace of a young vibrant community that is active and growing and are looking for that niche, if you like, that music mix that they are currently not receiving.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12269             We feel that the execution of the format that we will bring to the community, supported with the commitment to quality talent, will set us apart from any other broadcaster.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12270             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  And I am interested, why a blended classic as opposed to a pure format?  Why have you chosen a blended classic rock/new rock format rather than either a pure classic rock format or pure album‑oriented rock format?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12271             MR. POUND:  Again, we think it best serves the market.  It is a complementary format, the new music and the classic rock.  It was touched on about the energy involvement, that is it exactly.  Although it is a little out of the form, I will share the story.  My youngest son, 17, just graduated and the high school theme was The Carpenters We've Only Just Begun, which is quite a stretch for a 17‑year old and their peer group.  But that is the identity that this music format stretches.  It goes from ourselves all the way down to the 17‑year old and those are the two extreme ends of that format.  But by mixing the new music with the classic rock you get a perfect blend, in our view, that the market wants to hear.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12272             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, thank you.  We will now move into the area of spoken word.  In your March 30, 2006 deficiency response you provided us with a well‑documented breakdown outlining the level of scripted spoken word you proposed to offer on your station.  However, it would be helpful to get some idea as to the level of non‑scripted spoken word that you would offer.  By non‑scripted I am referring to things such as announcer talk and such.  As an average estimate, how many hours of non‑scripted spoken word do you anticipate on this station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12273             MR. POUND:  Well, maybe I can really cover all the spoken word.  I will start with the news‑related surveillance.  We have 313 minutes committed, about five hours, that is news and sports of about 206 minutes per week, those are 58 newscasts approximately three minutes in length.  They will air between 6:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. Monday to Friday, and between 7:00 a.m. and 1:00 p.m. Saturday and Sunday.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12274             We have weather news, 29 minutes per week of weather.  And then weather surveillance, 63 minutes per week of weather, that would be 126 forecasts.  Road information is very critical in the area.  We have allocated 15 minutes per week there.  And this is specifically answering your question now, general interest of spoken word is 316 minutes:  10 minutes would be our First Nations update, it is a five‑minute program airing twice a week; 30 minutes would be the Local Heroes salute to local coaches and volunteers; 150 minutes would be our community service free air time that we talked about for service groups and charities, 60 seconds, once per hour, seven days a week; 21 minutes a program called Black Gold, weekly feature on the oil patch, a 60‑second feature running 21 times per week; an agriculture program, 60‑second feature 21 times per week, 21 minutes; we have 63 minutes in music‑related features, this is the announcer prep regarding music particularly, this doesn't cover music this covers the spoken word portion; and 21 minutes of additional announcer, if you like, soapbox or local events comments.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12275             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.  Your answers contain as much information as the preamble to some of the CRTC's questions, so you may see a bit of overlap in some of the questions that are following this and some of that is because of the completeness of your answer to this first question.  So if you can just bear with us as we work our way through.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12276             In your March 30 deficiency response that your general interest scripted word program would focus on such things as local events, oil, agriculture, charity, non‑profit, something you call soapbox commentary, that the programming would account for four hours of spoken word per week.  Would you provide us with more details on the type of content you would provide in these programs or duration and how they would be scheduled?  And I think this is one of those questions that falls into that category, so if there is anything more that you haven't covered that you wish to add you are certainly free to do so now, okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12277             You have provided a programming grid on page 95 of your application that detailed the level of live versus automated programming to be offered on the proposed station.  We have recalculated your numbers to reflect live and automated programming levels over the regulated 126‑hour broadcast.  We can see that you would offer 72 hours per week of what you term live programming and 54 hours per week of what you term automated programming.  What do you mean by the term automated programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12278             MR. POUND:  Those would be the voice tracked pre‑recorded announcer inserts on the rotation of the music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12279             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  And would that music be fully automated music programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12280             MR. POUND:  Yes, it would be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12281             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You said your station would provide a local service that would cater to what you described as the underserved 25 to 44 male listener of Grande Prairie.  However, as a local service you have decided to offer automated programming from 6:00 p.m. until midnight Monday to Friday accounting for 30 hours of programming.  As well, with the exception of eight hours of live programming on Saturday between 10:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. and four hours of live on Sunday between 10:00 and 2:00, you would also offer 24 hours of automated programming over the weekend.  Would you elaborate on your ‑‑ what is your thinking behind this programming decision?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12282             MR. POUND:  I mean it is a combination of economic and serving the community.  As we indicated, we will expand that as quickly as economically feasible, because our belief historically in any market that we have operated radio stations before is it has been 24 hours live as opposed to the automation.  But I think the automation in the radio industry has become a factor of economics and we have taken a conservative approach to our application in that area to make sure that we are effective when we start out or turn on the radio station, if you like.  As events happen, if there was a Kelowna fire, as an example, our radio station would be live immediately no matter what time that would be.  But as laid out in our application, that is our intent at this moment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12283             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay thank you, Mr. Pound.  On page 98 of your application you provide a news grid that outlines a scheduling duration and number of newscasts you will offer on the proposed station.  You indicate a total of 202 minutes of news content which mirrors the figure you provided in your March 30 deficiency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12284             I see that of this 202 minutes no newscasts are scheduled between 6:00 and midnight on any day of the week and only 36 minutes of news programming is scheduled over the entire weekend.  Concerning the weekend newscasts, I see it is all scheduled in the morning with nothing scheduled over the 12 hour period from noon until midnight.  Again, could you give us a bit more information on how you reached this programming decision?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12285             MR. POUND:  That is correct and, again, it is based on a conservative approach on available staff.  We have targeted the key areas of presenting news.  We are committed, as I touched on moments ago, should significant news happen we will be live at any period during the day, I mean that becomes the mandate of our three members of the news department who get the call and have to be active very quickly.  We are committed to that as part of the community involvement.  But, as outlined, we are live between 6:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. Monday to Friday and are live 7:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. Saturday and Sunday in our newsroom.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12286             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  And these people are on standby or on call or..?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12287             MR. POUND:  Absolutely, Blackberries, cell phones, whatever ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12288             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12289             MR. POUND:  ‑‑ they will be available immediately.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12290             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Back to your news grid for a moment.  Where does the related surveillance material such as the 60 minutes of weather and 15 minutes of road information per week fit into this grid?  Is it scheduled to follow the newscasts or will this information be scheduled at other times of the day and, if so, when and would any of this be available on the weekends during the timeslots we have been talking about?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12291             MR. POUND:  Yes, it would be.  Part of that, as we touched on before, part of that information presented is the announcer also.  The 206 minutes per week run Monday to Friday as the times outlined, 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. and 7:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. Saturday and Sunday.  Those are the news, sports, weather.  The weather news itself runs 29 minutes per week.  The weather surveillance is part of the announcer's presentation and our road reports are scheduled during the Monday to Saturday live period also.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12292             COMMISSIONER:  During your 54 hours of automated programming what provisions and mechanisms would you have in place to go live to air with special news and information programming such as weather warnings, emergency measures and that sort of information?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12293             MR. POUND:  Yes, that is very very important for our radio station as, again, touching on our people are on call immediately.  Winter storms, blizzards, if you spend anytime in Grande Prairie, can be tremendous.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12294             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So who contacts them, how are they contacted?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12295             MR. POUND:  It becomes a management decision.  Just like you have an emergency plan in a company, if something happens here are the steps that you go through to make sure things are taken care of.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12296             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, so let us say it is January of any given year and you have a blizzard.  I guess your General Manager has looked out the window and he sees there is a blizzard and he will start phoning people?  I am just trying to figure out how it would work.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12297             MR. POUND:  Sure, I mean as you know there is some anticipation of severe weather and that, just like you have planned your programming day, you start to anticipate and then you have a plan in place to deal with those emergency situations.  In situations, of course Prairie folks when we have been in the winter, we know that in some cases roads are cut off, in some cases people need to communicate to other people and they can't.  On the rare occasion there is no communication and the radio station is the only communication available.  That is the important role that our community station will take.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12298             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, thank you.  Are there any challenges you face in creating relevant spoken word and news content to meet the needs of your target audience and, if so, what might they be and what specific plans do you have in place to serve them?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12299             MR. POUND:  Well 63 minutes of that 316 minutes of general interest spoken word are the responsibility of the announcers preparing their programs and they are focused on the music format relating to artists' events in that music genre.  But there is also 21 minutes of that spoken word content.  Again, it is the responsibility of the announcer, which may touch on the music but certainly would touch on the lifestyle of our audience, whether it be local events going on related to our audience or commentary on entertainment news environment, that is how we would communicate to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12300             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  We will move into your contributions to talent.  In your March 30, 2006 deficiency response you indicated that in addition to the $20,000 annual direct expenditure commitments Sun Country would contribute an additional $3,000 as required as a participant in the CAB CTD plan.  For the public record, would you confirm that by condition of licence your proposed annual CTD expenditures would total $23,000 and, by extension, your CTD commitment over seven consecutive broadcast years would total $161,000?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12301             MR. POUND:  Our cash support, as we outlined, will be $231,000.  The $3,000 that you are referring to we would direct to the ARIA, the Alberta Recording Industries Association.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12302             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Right, as per your opening remarks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12303             MR. POUND:  That is right.  If you like, I can go through the rest of it or we can wait for another question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12304             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Sure, well maybe I will work through it and that way we will get all of the information on the record that we might otherwise miss.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12305             What measures, if any, will Sun Country have in place to ensure that the annual $5,000 grand prize will be used by the winning artist or band to underwrite studio time as stipulated in your application?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12306             MR. POUND:  That is part of the role of our community advisory board.  As we talked about, Mr. Neil MacGonigill will be our Canadian Talent Coordinator.  Neil and I go back a long time, we started our broadcasts careers together.  He moved towards the music industry and I moved towards playing the music that he developed in the music industry.  So the radio station itself will have an arms‑length approach to something like that, we won't make the final judgement, we will supply the funding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12307             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  What type of recorded material do you expect as a result of this initiative?  Are we talking about a master recording or the winning song or something else?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12308             MR. POUND:  It would be our intent to have a CD or what I used to call an album out of that, but we certainly would give exposure on our radio station and encourage other radio stations to do the same.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12309             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Will it be in a current rotation category this new song?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12310             MR. POUND:  That would be the intent, but we wouldn't deny the opportunity of local talent in another ‑‑ in a folk area, in a soft rock area, in a country area.  We will make time available within our format to profile and highlight that local Canadian talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12311             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How long would it be in your rotation?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12312             MR. POUND:  I am sorry?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12313             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How long do you anticipate Sun Country would keep the winning song in a current rotation?  Are we talking weeks or a couple months or..?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12314             MR. POUND:  It would always be part of the format, it would not disappear.  It would take a higher rotation, obviously, closer to the event and it would be profiled with more than just a rotation experience.  As a three‑month period perhaps it would fall back into a lesser rotation, but it will always be part of our library.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12315             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, thank you.  Based on the total hours tuned estimates for your proposed service you expect to generate nearly 200,000 hours of audience tuning in year one, which represents approximately 13 per cent of the total hours tuned in the Grande Prairie market.  What factors lead you to believe that this is a large enough audience to sustain your business plan?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12316             MR. POUND:  I will pass that to Mr. East and then to Mr. Brundige.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12317             MR. EAST:  Let us go straight to Mr. Brundige.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12318             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Mr. Brundige.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12319             MR. BRUNDIGE:  I expect that the station will have roughly a 28 share of the audience in the City of Grande Prairie, in the County of Grande Prairie.  And that would indicate to me that somehow those numbers don't match up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12320             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, we can check that.  Can you tell me a bit about your economic analysis and research, Mr. Brundige?  Some of the other applicants like Hunsperger interviewed 300, Newcap 250, O.K. 403, Bear Creek 400.  What was the sample size of your research data?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12321             MR. BRUNDIGE:  I did not do the research that way.  Mr. Foot did the interviews.  I did a study based on the retail trade available in the County of Grande Prairie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12322             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That is the 43 business owners and managers?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12323             MR. BRUNDIGE:  No, no, no.  Mr. Foot dealt with those people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12324             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12325             MR. BRUNDIGE:  Do you want me to continue on with what I did?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12326             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12327             MR. BRUNDIGE:  So I took the retail sales from Canadian markets and then projected a percentage of that number as the radio market for Grande Prairie.  Then I got Stats Canada to give me a special run on radio revenue in a defined area of northern Alberta and worked out a per capita amount of spending on radio advertising and applied that to the Grande Prairie market.  The numbers came in roughly $60,000 apart, one being slightly under $5 million and the other one being slightly over $5 million.  Then I went and did a visit to the market, I talked to various individuals in the market.  I am sorry I couldn't give you a list on it, because I was not doing what Mr. Foot ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12328             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That is fine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12329             MR. BRUNDIGE:  ‑‑ was doing.  However, I came away from that visit convinced that the $5 million for 2004 that I had arrived at was low and that it would be considerably higher, probably in the $6 million for 2004.  As you have heard today and as I have heard today and as I have heard today, the market since 2004 has grown explosively so we are left with a very very conservative revenue projection.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12330             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  Based on your experience and the work that you have done, how many new radio stations do you believe Grande Prairie could support at this time?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12331             MR. BRUNDIGE:  I am sorry, who did you direct that question to?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12332             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Mr. Brundige, sorry, I was still ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12333             MR. BRUNDIGE:  Well, I think I will pass that question onto Mr. Pound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12334             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, Mr. Pound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12335             MR. POUND:  Well, in light of the news that came forward yesterday, I think the market can quite comfortably support two new radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12336             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, so it could quite easily support two new radio stations.  And if we were to licence one of the incumbents and an independent or two incumbents or two independents, which would be the preferred licensing scenario from your perspective for the Grande Prairie market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12337             MR. POUND:  If we were able to influence the decision we would encourage two independents.  We think that brings more diversity to the marketplace, it creates more competition, it gets everybody focused.  In our history of broadcast radio enterprises that we have done we thrive in competition.  We look forward to a challenge.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12338             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, thank you.  In the event the Commission decides not to licence you for the frequency for which you have applied, have you considered the use of another frequency?  If yes, which one and, if no, why not?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12339             MR. POUND:  Mr. Gray will respond to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12340             MR. GRAY:  It is of course only in recent months it became quite evident to us that there was the very real possibility there could be two licences granted, so obviously we had to look at where we might go should our frequency be awarded as well as us.  And we are convinced and we have confirmed with our consultant from DEM Allen & Associates that in fact the frequency allocation situation in Grande Prairie is really not an issue.  I think we have already heard some of the applicants suggest that there are three, four, possibly even more for opportunity, so ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12341             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So any one of these opportunities would be capable of meeting your coverage ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12342             MR. GRAY:  Yes, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12343             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  ‑‑ objectives and would have no negative impact on your business plan?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12344             MR. GRAY:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12345             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, I think that concludes my questioning, Mr. Chair.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12346             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Williams.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12347             This morning in your oral presentation and again in answering to a question from Commissioner Williams you mentioned that your CTD cash commitments were $231,000.  The information that we have recorded amounts to $161,000, as Mr. Williams mentioned to you.  Could you, for our benefit, layout what are those commitments?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12348             MR. POUND:  Yes, thank you.  Five thousand dollar is the annual music scholarship to attend the Grande Prairie College fine arts music program.  And again, our community advisory board, in association with the college will adjudicate and determine where that money goes, to what individual.  Five thousand dollars annual talent search program, $2,500 goes directly to the first prize winner, $1,500 to the second prize winner and $1,000 to the third prize winner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12349             We have budgeted $10,000 in local grants to support new Canadian songwriter, song singer performers to gain exposure in live performance and that is where the assistance of Mr. MacGonigill and our community advisory board will be, to adjudicate and evaluate those.  Ten thousand dollars in the annual business of music seminars.  This is annual seminar, again under the direction of MacGonigill will help new Canadian talent understand the business side of music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12350             We will put on a workshop and bring the industry professionals to the community of Grande Prairie.  So that they have an opportunity to learn from people who have been in the business.  And really the key of this is it is the business of music, how to sign a contract, what to anticipate in a contract, what the experiences are on the road, how to budget accordingly, areas that they can share of their past experience to these new budding performers.  I think that is an overlooked area.  And of course, the $3,000 annual contribution to the Alberta Recording Industries Association.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12351             We are very committed that the money for the Canadian talent support comes out of the community as part of our broadcast facility and we are very passionate about the fact that it should go back into the community and on a secondary basis back into the region.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12352             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Staff has it recorded, your business, $10,000 that you are allocating to the business seminar.  Is it a new initiative that you are introducing today or was it really part of your application?  And if it was part of your application, where ‑‑ on which pages of the application will I find the information?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12353             MR. POUND:  It came out of the conversation in talking to Neil of making this commitment in our application.  This is new in our Canadian talent.  But you will see it identified in our support areas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12354             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, I have Commissioner Cugini who wants to ask a few questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12355             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Good morning.  I just want to ask you a couple of questions on your format, classic rock versus new rock.  You mean new rock as opposed to alternative rock music?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12356             MR. POUND:  Yes, we do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12357             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And will these be scheduled in day parts or will the new rock be scattered throughout the day?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12358             MR. POUND:  It is all part of the mix.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12359             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And the difference between the classic rock and the new rock, other than the era, is there also a difference in the artists that you will play?  In other words, will we hear a Rolling Stones song in the classic rock and then their latest release and that will be considered a new rock song, or will you be introducing new artists in the new rock category?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12360             MR. POUND:  It will be principally new artists because of the growth in that area of the music industry, but it will feature a Rolling Stones new song.  It is new music, current music is probably a more apt description as opposed to what you were calling it, alternative rock, as a category description.  It is new music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12361             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And in terms of your reflection of the Aboriginal community, will that include playing Aboriginal rock music?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12362             MR. POUND:  Absolutely.  We would encourage that if it is available.  The support of Elder Angie and her direction, so that we can connect to that Aboriginal community.  That was the reason that we invited her to be part of our community advisory board so that we did have that connect.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12363             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Chair, those are my questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12364             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mrs. Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12365             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I want to go back to the CTD and I confess, I am confused and I think we all are.  If I can take you to 5.5 of your supplementary brief.  By my numbering it is 18‑Z‑4 and 5.  Have you found it?  Supplementary brief 5.5.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12366             And I read that, and maybe it was amended, as saying you would be providing $20,000 per year cash commitment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12367             MR. POUND:  Is there a page number on the top right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12368             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  It says 18‑Z‑4.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12369             MR. POUND:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12370             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You have it?  And 18‑Z‑5, both say your CTD would consist of $20,000 per year cash.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12371             MR. POUND:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12372             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  There is no reference whatsoever ‑‑ there is reference to the $5,000 scholarship, the talent search $5,000, and $10,000 to local musicians, singers and bands ‑‑ there is no reference to the $10,000 for the business side of music seminars.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12373             MR. POUND:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12374             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And there is no reference to the $3,000 a year for ARIA?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12375             MR. POUND:  It is referenced in the deficiency letter where we were asked is the $3,000 inclusive of the $20,000 or external ‑‑ that may not be the right wording ‑‑ and we responded it is external to it and we would ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12376             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Can you tell me what page that is on your deficiency letter?  Maybe I can direct you to paragraph 6 or question 6, March 30 letter.  You have it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12377             MR. HALL:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12378             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay, what that says is you will pay the $20,000 cash but it does not include the small market contribution as a participant in the CAB CTD plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12379             THE SECRETARY:  Can you please turn on your microphone when you are answering, you know, for us to have the benefit of the ‑‑ for the transcript.  If you could just have your microphone turned on when you are answering the questions, so that we can have it for the benefit of the transcript, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12380             MR. POUND:  Sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12381             THE SECRETARY:  That is okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12382             MR. POUND:  Yes, the CAB Canadian talent plan and in that Canadian talent plan is a list of where the authorized or accepted, I guess is a better word, participants in that Canadian talent money and we allocate it to the Alberta Recording Industries Association.  We did not identify the Alberta Recording Industries there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12383             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  You will agree with the that the public record, which is what the competitors have to compete with, there is no mention of ARIA?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12384             MR. POUND:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12385             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And you will agree with me that the competitors had no notice whatsoever that you were going to give $10,000 to the those business seminars?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12386             MR. POUND:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12387             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And you agree with me that this is a competitive process?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12388             MR. POUND:  Yes, I do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12389             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You amended your application and in your amended application at 7.2, if you can find that, in your March 30 letter, you amended your..

LISTNUM 1 \l 12390             MR. HALL:  Question ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12391             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Have you got it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12392             MR. HALL ‑‑ 7?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12393             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  7.2, it is Canadian Talent Development.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12394             MR. HALL:  And that is the March 16 letter?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12395             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  You have it, 7.2?  It is the amended application that you filed with your deficiency letter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12396             MR. HALL:  On the March 16 letter I have just seven under programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12397             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes, and then keep going down the page.  Okay, by my numbering ‑‑ the numbering on the page it is 92, page 92.  Does that help you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12398             MR. HALL:  No, I don't know what..

LISTNUM 1 \l 12399