TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

                          SUBJECT:

Various Broadcast Applications/

Plusiers demandes en radiodiffusion

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

Westin Edmonton Hotel                 l'Hôtel Westin Edmonton

10135 100th Street                    10135, 100^e rue

Edmonton, Alberta                     Edmonton (Alberta)

June 22, 2006                         Le 22 juin 2006

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

                 Transcript / Transcription

Various Broadcast Applications/

Plusiers demandes en radiodiffusion

BEFORE / DEVANT:

Michel Arpin                      Chairperson / Président

Barbara Cram                      Commissioner / Conseillère

Rita Cugini                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Ronald Williams                   Commissioner / Conseiller

Stuart Langford                   Commissioner / Conseiller

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Chantal Boulet                    Secretary / Secrétaire

Joe Aguiar                        Hearing Manager /

Gérant de l'audience

Anne-Marie Murphy/                Legal Counsel /

Shari Fisher                      Conseillères juridiques

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

Westin Edmonton Hotel             l'Hôtel Westin Edmonton

10135 100th Street                10135, 100^e rue

Edmonton, Alberta                 Edmonton (Alberta)

June 22, 2006                     Le 22 juin 2006

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

                                                 PAGE / PARA

PHASE I (Cont.)

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

Harvard Broadcasting Inc.                        1028 / 6201

King's Kids Promotions Outreach Ministries Inc.  1082 / 6572

Newcap Inc.                                      1161 / 7004

Radio CJVR Ltd.                                  1200 / 7187

Touch Canada Broadcasting Inc.                   1264 / 7533

PHASE III

INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:

Aboriginal People's Television Network           1351 / 8355

PHASE IV

REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:

Touch Canada Broadcasting Inc.                   1364 / 8431

Radio CJVR Ltd.                                  1364 / 8438

Newcap Inc.                                      1365 / 8445

King's Kids Promotions Outreach Ministries Inc.  1366 / 8453

Harvard Broadcasting Inc.                        1367 / 8462

Vista Radio Ltd.                                 1369 / 8475

1182743 Alberta Ltd.                             1370 / 8484

               Edmonton, Alberta / Edmonton (Alberta)

‑‑‑ Upon resuming on Thursday, June 22, 2006

    at 0830 / L'audience reprend le jeudi

    22 juin 2006 à 0830

6195             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  Good morning, everybody.

6196             We will now start with the following item.  Madam Secretary.

6197             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

6198             Good morning, everyone.  We will now proceed with Item 15 on the Agenda, which is an application by Harvard Broadcasting Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Fort McMurray.

6199             The new station would operate on frequency 103.7 MHz, channel 279B, with an effective radiated power of 20,000 watts, non‑directional antenna/antenna height of 54 metres.  Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Paul Hill who will introduce his colleagues.  You will then have 20 minutes for your presentation.

6200             Please go ahead.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

6201             MR. COWIE:  Good morning, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Commission.  My name is Bruce Cowie, and I Am the Vice President of Harvard Broadcasting.  I am pleased to be here today to present our application for MIX 103.7, a new Adult Contemporary FM station targeting the 18 to 54 year old demographic in the fastest growing city in Canada, Fort McMurray.

6202             Before beginning our presentation, I would like to introduce the members of our panel.

6203             Seated on my right, is Michael Olstrom, Harvard's Station Group Manager.  Seated next to Michael is Karen Broderick, Harvard's National Sales Manager.

6204             On my left is Daryl Holien, Harvard's Director of FM Programming and Creative Services.  Daryl has been in the radio business for 30 years, having served in every facet of the business from on‑air, production and programming.  As part of his current responsibilities, Daryl programs Harvard's Lite 92 FM in Regina.

6205             Next to Daryl is William Alexander, a Senior Manager with the proposed MIX 103.7.   William is of First Nations descent and has strong ties to the Southern Saskatchewan First Nations community.  He played a key role in the licensing and launch of CREEK‑FM, a community station located on Okanese First Nation north of Regina.  Prior to overseeing the operations of that station, William worked at Harvard Broadcasting and we are delighted that he has agreed to re‑join our team to serve as Senior Manager of MIX 103.7, if our application is approved.

6206             In the back row, beginning on my far right is Debra McLaughlin of Strategic Inc., the company that did our feasibility and consumer demand study.  Next to Debra is Rob Malcolmson, a partner at Goodmans LLP, our legal counsel.  Next to Rob is Tina Svedhal, Vice President Investments for Harvard Developments Inc., our parent company.

6207             Finally, on my left in the back row is Paul Hill, President and CEO of Harvard Developments Ltd.  Mr. Hill is one of Canada's business leaders and operates a family‑owned, diversified company that has just celebrated 103 years of doing business in Western Canada.  The success of the Hill companies has been built on two principles ‑‑ caring and commitment ‑‑ principles which guide not only our business operations but our attitude and social activities in the communities the Hill family serves.

6208             Paul will speak to you about why Harvard has chosen to apply for a new station in Fort McMurray, and how MIX 103.7 fits into our regional growth strategy.

6209             Debra will then give an overview of the rapidly growing Fort McMurray market and the extraordinarily high demand for the format we propose.

6210             Karen will speak to the demand for advertisers, and then Michael, Daryl and William will describe the station in more detail, including its target audience, and the kind of programming we are proposing.

6211             Finally, I will present our locally‑focused CTD package and our plans for an innovative partnership with the Aboriginal Peoples' Television Network.

6212             Paul..."

6213             MR. HILL:  Thank you, Bruce.

6214             As the Commission knows, Harvard has been in the broadcasting business since 1976 and we have been proud and honoured to serve the residents of Regina and Southern Saskatchewan ever since.  In the recent Commercial Radio Policy Review the Commission heard from Harvard and others on the importance of diversity in the broadcast system.

6215             There was a consistent view put forward that independent broadcasters play a critical role in providing balance and reflecting regional differenceS.  We are here today because we strongly believe that at the end of a period marked by considerable consolidation, there is an even greater need to expand the role for smaller and mid‑size owners.

6216             Harvard meets that need.

6217             We also offer a wealth of practical experience.  We operate in a market that has gone through ownership changes.  We have weathered economic downturns and shifts in formats.  Through it all we have maintained our focus.  Our audiences stay tuned to us because of our strong connection to the communities we serve.

6218             CKRM for example has defied all predictions about the demise of AM and remains a strong contributor to southern Saskatchewan life.

6219             We feel we can do more in the radio business and seek your approval to expand our contribution to Fort McMurray.

6220             As the Commission is aware, our goal is to grow Harvard's radio presence in western Canada. In furtherance of this objective, we appeared before you earlier this year seeking a licence in Calgary.

6221             Fort McMurray represents another key market for our regional growth strategy.  Harvard already plays a role in Fort McMurray.  Our parent company, Harvard Developments, is a major investor in the city's real estate development and housing sector.  Another Hill company, Harvard Energy, has recently made a significant investment in the oil sands and plans to play a major role in Fort McMurray's booming oil extraction sector.  We know from experience in the area that the city is under served and can support a new radio station.

6222             We hope the Commission will consider our unique qualifications and experience and recognize the role we can play in adding to diversity of ownership and editorial voices.  We ask you to approve our plan for Fort McMurray and allow us to extend our tradition of community service with the launch of MIX 103.7.

Debra.

6223             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Fort McMurray meets all the tests for a new licence:  It's growing, it's wealthy and it's critically under served by local radio stations.  Advertisers would like more options and consumers demand more choice.

6224             Furthermore, there is clear gap in the formats that are being offered.  The number one "most listened to" music format in Canada, Adult Contemporary, is missing from the Fort McMurray radio spectrum.  Given this clear gap, it came as no surprise that we found a predictably high degree of consumer demand for the proposed format.

6225             It's no exaggeration to say that the city is growing at an explosive rate.  Its population has grown 9 percent from 2004, according to a municipal Census conducted in 2005, and is projected to rise an astounding 4 percent in the next 16 months, according to Financial Post Canadian Demographics.

6226             This outpaces the growth of any other market in Canada.  Moreover, fully 90 percent of Fort McMurray's population is below the age of 55, with over half between the ages of 25‑54.

6227             Significantly, only 25 percent of the respondents to our research reported that they were satisfied with the current choices of radio stations in Fort McMurray.  In fact, about two‑thirds of them listed a radio station from outside of the market as the service they spend the most time with.  Based on a market survey of people aged 18 to 54, we found that fully 89 percent stated that they would definitely or probably listen to a new Adult Contemporary radio station.  And it's noteworthy that interest in this format was found at both ends of the 18 to 54 demographic.

6228             Currently there are only two commercial radio stations in the market, a Rock and a Country format.  What is clearly missing is a service that provides a broader range of popular music and balances the market with a station that appeals to a female audience.

6229             MS BRODERICK:  Two factors bode well for advertising sales in Fort McMurray.  First, the growth of the city is fuelled by the oil and gas industry.  For every one job created in the oil sands, it is estimated that three more jobs are created in the region.  And developments in the oil sands industry alone will represent 60,000 jobs in the next 15 years.  With that population growth comes more construction and development, in both the residential and retail sectors.

6230             Second, Fort McMurray is a very wealthy community.  Over half the households in the city boast annual incomes of over $100,000, fully 56 percent above the national average and well above the average household incomes of large urban centres like Calgary, Toronto and Edmonton.

6231             The Strategic study found that media buyers were enthusiastic about the prospect of another radio station in Fort McMurray.  With the Canadian Real Estate Association estimating that the number of retail outlets will increase by 50 percent in the next three years, we expect that advertising and retail spending will grow accordingly.

6232             In the past year alone, retail sales in Fort McMurray have grown from 249 million, or 54 percent below the national average, to 771 million or 19 percent above the national average.  This dramatic expansion of the retail base, combined with the demand in the marketplace, means that more radio advertising dollars will be available to all stations in the market.

6233             Michael...?

6234             MR. OLSTROM:  Thank you, Karen.

6235             MIX 103.7 will be an Adult Contemporary service that plays a popular mix of currently charting music, recurrent selections and tracks from the '8Os and '90s.  About 70 percent of the playlist will be drawn from the AC format, while 30 percent will come from the Pop charts.  The draw from two charts will provide a more diverse selection of music, while focusing on artists largely unheard on local services.

6236             The Strategic study identified variety as the single most important element of the programming mix among Fort McMurray residents.  Providing a mix of AC and Pop will meet that demand.  More selection also means less repetition and greater distinction from existing services.

6237             The AC and Pop genres feature a wide range of new and emerging artists, something Fort McMurray residents have told us that they want, AC artists like Jully Black, DB Clifford, Amanda Stott, Collette Baron Reid and Pop artists like Mobile, Be Good Tanyas, City and Colour, Ron Sexsmith and Tomi Swick.  They will be showcased throughout our regular playlist.

6238             Our commitment to new and emerging artists is significant, representing fully 25 percent of our 40 percent Canadian content.

6239             In addition to differentiating ourselves with respect to the format, we note that both the Rock and Country formats often have a male skew.  So we see a prime opportunity to introduce a format that appeals to the female portion of the population.

6240             Furthermore, Harvard continues to recognize the need to provide services to a younger audience to ensure radio's place in their media choices as they age.  So after 8:00 p.m. MIX 103.7 will shift slightly younger, providing an increased emphasis on music drawn from the Pop charts.  After 8:00 p.m. there will be a shift in spoken word, music and, yes, even advertiser content that will let us address the interests of a younger demographic.

6241             William...?

6242             MR. ALEXANDER:  One of the programming elements that was given great importance by the respondents to the Strategic study, and has been confirmed in the research of many of the other applicants, is news.  Local, Canadian and international news scored almost 90 percent across each category.  Harvard has, therefore, made news an important part of the programming day.  We will offer 15 hours and 53 minutes of news and information programming per week.

6243             Our plan is to be highly focused on community‑level news and develop a strong identity as an intensely local Fort McMurray radio service, with comprehensive news, weather and sports coverage of the Fort McMurray and Wood Buffalo areas.

6244             In response to the importance of weather, our forecasts on MIX 103.7 will accompany each newscast.  Each hour will have a minimum of two more weather forecasts as announcer surveillance.

6245             In addition to sports coverage that will air as part of each newscast, MIX 103.7 will also create the "Fort McMurray Sports Spotlight", a one‑minute feature focusing on local sports, including hockey, baseball and high school athletics and airing four times daily.

6246             Finally, MIX 103.7 will offer a news and information program called the "Noon Report", a half‑hour, in‑depth forum on current events in the area.  This expanded news program will feature interviews with local newsmakers and provide the time to look behind the headlines.  Running Monday to Friday, the "Noon Report" will fill the very real demand for local news and will be a new voice in local coverage.

6247             Daryl...?

6248             MR. HOLIEN:  We are also planning a balanced mix of feature programming for the station, two of which will make a very tangible contribution to Canadian Talent Development.

6249             Six times daily the MIX 103.7 "Showcase" will feature new Canadian artists, with a particular focus on artists from Alberta and the Fort McMurray area.  The segment will include a short artist biography or interview, 90‑seconds in length, followed by a featured song.  This will both maximize the exposure for the artist and provide our core audience with the innovative programming mix they demand.

6250             MIX 103.7 will also place special emphasis on Canadian and regional AC and Pop artists through a one‑hour Canadian Spotlight feature that will air twice weekly and will showcase new Canadian talent to our audience.  We know that there is a strong appetite for new music and this feature programming will provide an opportunity for those wishing to expand their musical horizons.

6251             MR. ALEXANDER:  In addition to these shows, which highlight and expose Canadian talent, MIX 103.7 will feature other information programming of value to its listeners.

6252             These include the twice‑daily "Business Report", which will give our audience an overview of the day's trading in world markets and any changes in the corporate world that affect the Fort McMurray and Wood Buffalo region.

6253             Our "Recreational Reports" will provide outdoor enthusiasts with timely updates twice daily from Monday through Friday and three times daily on the weekend.

6254             Our "Community Calendar" will also air twice per day, to keep listeners informed on regional festivals, indigenous and other cultural celebrations, charity events and volunteer opportunities.

6255             And "Fort McMurray Moments" will recognize the rich and colourful heritage of the area by packaging, in a one‑minute feature, details about the Wood Buffalo region that will inform and entertain listeners.  There are at least five First Nation groups living in this area and, in addition to indigenous cultures, the city is home to first and second generation ethnic groups from around the world.

6256             While maybe not as diverse as major markets to the south, Fort McMurray has a strong French, Chinese and East Indian presence.  "Fort McMurray Moments" will draw on all of these influences with community reflection that will air twice daily during the week.

6257             To ensure that our programming remains relevant to and reflective of the local community, MIX 103.7 will establish a local advisory committee who will ensure we are addressing issues of unique concern to Fort McMurray.

6258             Six prominent members of the Fort McMurray community have agreed to serve on our local advisory committee.  A list of our local advisory committee members is attached as Schedule A to this presentation.  Like me, they are all anxious to get to work on bringing a new voice and sound to the residents of Fort McMurray.

6259             Now that you have heard all about MIX 103.7, let's sample its sound and hear from the Fort McMurray audience we seek to serve.

‑‑‑ Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

6260             MR. COWIE:  Mr. Chairman, I will conclude our presentation by outlining our plans for Canadian Talent Development.

6261             Harvard is committing $700,000 over seven years to foster Canadian Talent Development in the Fort McMurray area.

6262             This funding will go to three initiatives:

6263             First, Harvard will sponsor performances at the annual Interplay Visual and Performing Arts Festival.  Harvard's contribution of $40,000 per year for seven years will be directed 100 percent to artists.

6264             Second, Harvard will contribute $40,000 annually for scholarships to students studying in the visual and performing arts program at Keyano College, a community college that serves over 10,000 students.  Specifically, four annual scholarships of $10,000 each will be awarded to students demonstrating merit and financial need.

6265             Finally, Harvard will donate $20,000 per year for seven years to a Local Broadcast Centre, VoicePrint Canada.  This funding will provide the National Broadcast Reading Service with the means to train and develop "on‑air" readers and develop writers in the art of broadcast description.  Harvard's contribution will be directed in particular to the training of Aboriginal on‑air readers and writers.

6266             In addition to these direct CTD initiatives, we will invest in an innovative talent development program for Aboriginal broadcasters.  In partnership with APTN, Harvard will offer a news mentoring program in which it will accept and train one person from the local Aboriginal community each year in news reporting.

6267             The ultimate goal of this initiative is to provide hands-on training and broadcast experience to persons who might not otherwise have access to entry level positions and yet have a real passion for and career aspirations that include news.

6268             The President and CEO of APTN, Mr. Jean LaRose, will be speaking to you in Phase III about the critical importance of this initiative and how Harvard's innovative approach to developing Aboriginal talent has led to the establishment of the ground‑breaking Aboriginal Media Education Fund.

6269             Members of the Commission, that concludes our presentation in chief.

6270             In closing, I would like to summarize why we believe MIX 103.7 fulfils the Commission's licensing criteria:

6271             Harvard has a strong local presence in Fort McMurray through its involvement in the real estate, construction and oil sands sectors;

6272             We are a well‑established and well‑resourced company with a solid business plan for this new service;

6273             MIX 103.7 will supply an Adult Contemporary format that is missing from the market and that responds to the high demand on the part of the 18‑54 year old demographic;

6274             We have committed to 40 percent Canadian content throughout the broadcast day and week;

6275             We will promote the development of Canadian talent, both on‑the‑air and off, through our feature programming and a locally‑focused CTD package of $700,000;

6276             In addition, our partnership with APTN will help train a new generation of aboriginal reporters;

6277             Granting our application will bring a new voice and fresh editorial perspective to the market, strengthen an independent broadcaster with roots in Western Canada, and support Harvard's regional growth strategy.

6278             We thank you very much for your attention and would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.  Mr. Chairman, Mr. Olstrom will act as our quarterback for that section.

6279             Thank you.

6280             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Cowie.

6281             Commissioner Cugini...?

6282             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Ladies and gentlemen, good morning.  I apologize for the quality of my voice today, but sitting in recycled air will sometimes do this to you.

6283             Like most applicants in these proceedings, if not all, your application was quite complete and your oral presentation this morning quite complementary to your application, so I am very happy to see that.

6284             Nonetheless, I do still have some questions for you.  If you have been sitting in the room you pretty well know the order.

6285             So we are going to start with your format, 70 percent Adult Contemporary, 30 percent popular music.  This morning you said that starting at 8:00 p.m. that will skew more of a younger audience.  I am assuming that is where you will play the 30 percent of popular music?

6286             MR. OLSTROM:  The majority of it would come throughout the course of the evening, Commissioner Cugini, but Pop music in general mixes in ‑‑ the charts cross.  The Pop charts and AC charts cross, but the majority of it will be programmed throughout the evening.

6287             I will turn to Daryl Holien to sort of give you an overview of how that sort of progresses throughout the day.

6288             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Sure.

6289             MR. HOLIEN:  The target audience of the radio station is 18 to 44, with the majority of the daytime programming focused towards a 25 to 44 year old, playing AC music, news, some spoken word and news features.

6290             After 8:00 p.m. in the evening the radio station will shift just slightly, become more of an 18 to 34 year old radio station with some of the features that would be played during the day not there.

6291             If we went on an average of songs played throughout the day, we would be playing nine songs an hour, with two of those being from the pop genre.

6292             In the evening time with some of these features not there, you are probably playing 14 songs and five of those would fall in the Pop arena.

6293             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  When you say "features", are you also including spoken word programming?

6294             MR. HOLIEN:  Well, some of those ‑‑ I can speak to the music portion of it.  I can ask William to talk about some of the spoken word.

6295             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  It's just because you mentioned the word "features" and I'm wondering if you mean music programming featuring particular artists or when you say "features" you also mean spoken word programming targeting that younger demographic?

6296             MR. HOLIEN:  Some of the features, for example, the business report and those kind of things that are played during the day would not be played in the evening, however the spoken word features we do have would be tailored to that younger audience.

6297             I can maybe let William talk about those.

6298             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Sure.

6299             MR. ALEXANDER:  Thanks, Daryl.

6300             Yes, the spoken word will change in the evening.  During the day news of course will be a formatted segment, on the hour/half hour news and information reports.

6301             In the evening, the news and information will be woven into more of the jaw‑talk segments.  This has not been included in our news and information estimates.

6302             We will still provide news updates as they happen, but the information will be presented in a less formal manner.  This will meet the younger demographic's need for information, while not encouraging tune‑out for those seeking more music.

6303             Information content of course will change was well.  For example, the "Community Report" will air in the evening, but it will be geared towards the younger demographic, with announcements such as grad rehearsals times at Fort McMurray Comp High or YMCA day camp volunteer opportunities through Westwood High School.

6304             It is common programming knowledge that the relevancy of spoken word and commercial content can significantly affect the enjoyability of a radio station.

6305             A common request among young listeners is more music, less talk and more new and emerging artists as well.  MIX 103.7 will meet these demands in the evening with the Canadian Showcase of new and emerging artists and more music‑based evening show and the talk about exists will be more on artists, the music and relevant current events.

6306             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So the overall picture, have you identified two different core audiences for these two day parts as a result?

6307             MR. OLSTROM:  Yes, we have.

6308             Primarily we are an Adult Contemporary radio station.  However, with the size of the marketplace you don't narrowcast.

6309             What we are looking to do is be a little bit broader and, as Harvard in the past has been before the Commission, we have a belief in serving the younger demographic and we feel there is an opportunity as the propensity for tuning as we know it across Canada tends to ‑‑ the under 25 demographic, the tuning is basically double to the 25‑54 demographic after 8:00 p.m. in the evening.  So we found this as a good opportunity in a market of this size to service that segment of the audience.

6310             The station won't change dramatically.  It's not like a switch goes off, but the Pop component definitely picks up and becomes a significant part that would appeal to that younger demographic.

6311             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  You will also have anticipated, therefore, my next question which the Chair brings up with just about every applicant:  Have you identified a median age for both of those groups?

6312             MR. OLSTROM:  Median age for our radio station is 34.

6313             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Including the evening hours?  You still think the median age after 8:00 p.m. will be 34?

6314             MR. OLSTROM:  Well, no, the median age in the evening would not be ‑‑

6315             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Right.  That's why I asked for the two, in the two day parts.  Even though, as you say, it's not going to be a complete shift, but you will have a younger median age in the evening I'm assuming.

6316             MR. OLSTROM:  Yes.  I would like Debra McLaughlin to speak to that.

6317             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Sure.

6318             MS McLAUGHLIN:  The median age for the station overall will be 34.5 years of age; in the evening it will be 21.2.

6319             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  That is pretty exact.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

6320             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  More or less.

6321             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Yes, more of less.  You are a statistician I see.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

6322             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  You also mentioned in your opening statement this morning that it will also include advertising in terms of how the advertising will be directed to these two day parts.

6323             How do you anticipate doing that?

6324             MR. OLSTROM:  Well, there are a number of national advertisers that are looking to target those demographics and those opportunities do exist.  There are businesses in the Fort McMurray community that will be looking to address that audience.

6325             Maybe I could have Karen just briefly speak to that.

6326             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Yes.

6327             MS BRODERICK:  Our research has found that if advertising is relevant to a younger listener it is really not a tune‑out factor, so our plan is in the evenings when we are targeting that younger age demographic that our advertising will reflect that.  We have spoken with a number of advertisers in the market who don't really have an opportunity to reach that younger demographic so they look at this as an opportunity to do so.

6328             Wal‑Mart for example, they have set aside a whole marketing plan just for youth, so that is one example, but there are many others that we would probably shift into that evening time period.

6329             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  All right.

6330             You mentioned new and emerging artists in your oral presentation this morning.  Without revisiting the lengthy discussions that took place a the radio review on this subject, first of all, the first question is:  How are you defining "new and emerging artists"?

6331             MR. OLSTROM:  We are utilizing what was submitted by the CAB, which is that they are considered new and emerging up until 12 months from the date they go top 40 on the BDS media base all formats charts or the artist reaches gold statu.

6332             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  All right.  Thank you.

6333             Local programming an spoken word.  Like I said, your application is quite thorough and detailed with the paper that you gave us this morning, so thank you, but I would like to talk to you about your advisory committee.

6334             I do see the names and so the first question is off:  Who will be on that committee?

6335             What was the selection process?  What was the criteria for choosing these individuals?

6336             MR. COWIE:  Michael and I worked together on that.  We came into the market, we took advice as to who the involved people were who could be helpful in this regard.  I have family that live in Fort McMurray.  Through our own business connections there we were given names, not necessarily within our current realm of things but from their expanded view of the market.

6337             The number will actually be nine at the end of the day.  There are other candidates who chose to remain anonymous until such time as a licence is awarded, for their own reasons.

6338             But we tried to find a balance of people, for example the Chair, the person we have asked to chair it, is a homemaker, teacher.  Her husband and she run a very successful forest products business just north of Fort McMurray, but we wanted her to ‑‑ and we interviewed her in Fort McMurray.  We wanted her to be the social representative in the group:  How is the community in terms of the educational plant, recreational facility availability and those sorts of things?  What's happening to the cultural change here.

6339             For example, she told me that one teacher was having difficulty in a Kindergarten class because none of the children spoke English.  So she understand that change that is taking place, which is kind of under the dynamics of the oil and gas industry.

6340             So we wanted a person who understood the community, has lived here all her life, and how families are doing in this.

6341             Really, in building the advisory committee we were trying to answer two questions.  There is a whole new group of people here who don't know anything about Fort McMurray, and there is a whole group of people who have lived her for a long time who are wondering what is going on and how do they play in that?

6342             So we looked for people that, for example, represent the tourism industry, for people who understand infrastructure, who have been around for a long time and are part of building the ‑‑ not houses necessarily, the infrastructure is the city as a whole, it's planning, traffic and all of those things which are all hot topics here.

6343             You have a lot of people standing around Fort McMurray with nothing to do.  So we believe that our job as a licensee, should we be fortunate to be one, was to kind of help with that transition, for those that are coming, those who are here.  So we tried to build people around that knowledge base and have them support us by, on a fairly regular basis, meet with us, talk to us and make sure that we are talking about the right things, particularly in our news and information programs, that we are helping and that we are part of this growth going forward for both of those kinds of camps.

6344             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Will they be meeting on a regular basis or is this an ad hoc situation?

6345             MR. COWIE:  No.  We do have, by the way, the package that we discussed with them in terms of how it will work and we would be pleased to file that, if you wish.

6346             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Sure.

6347             MR. COWIE:  It meets the criteria of the CRTC, and so on, and is pretty straightforward in terms of the numbers of members, the numbers of times they will meet, how they will report, where their responsibilities lie, and so on.

6348             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  If you have that, that would be great.

6349             MR. COWIE:  Yes.  We would be quite pleased to provide that.

6350             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  When will you be able to file that with us?

6351             MR. COWIE:  We can file it today.

6352             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

6353             Just since you are here, will the advisory committee also have a role to play in your news programming?

6354             MR. COWIE:  No.

6355             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  They will not.

6356             MR. COWIE:  The advisory committee will be advisory only.

6357             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  CTD.  You have stated that your commitment is $700,000 over the term of the licence.

6358             MR. COWIE:  Yes.

6359             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  As you know, you may however be awarded a licence for a shorter period of time than seven years, or you may launch the service within a year, that is something that is shorter than ‑‑ therefore the first year may be shorter, so would you accept as a COL a requirement that you contribute $100,000 per year for the first seven consecutive broadcast years of your proposed undertaking?

6360             MR. COWIE:  Yes, we would.

6361             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Now I would like to go to the particulars of your CTD commitments.

6362             MR. COWIE:  All right.

6363             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I know that there has been correspondence between you and our staff in the deficiency process regarding the $20,000 a year for seven years to the Local Broadcast Centre for VoicePrint.

6364             Could you tell us what is your rationale for including this as a CTD expenditure?

6365             MR. COWIE:  Well, we believe as a group that VoicePrint and the activities of reading and writing for that group of people goes to the heart of the broadcast ‑‑ to the spirit of a broadcast licence, let me put it that way.  It is a very important part of things we do and it has bee approved in the past by the Commission in CRTC 2002‑91 and 92.  For Standard Radio and for Rogers VoicePrint has been approved as a qualifier for Canadian Talent Development.

6366             But more importantly, in this case, in Fort McMurray, this will be the first opportunity to begin to train Aboriginal readers.

6367             We came to it a couple of years ago and just found that this to us seemed like a very important thing to do with part of our CTD commitments.

6368             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  If for some reason in our deliberations we don't quite see it the way you do, would you be willing to redirect that $20,000?

6369             MR. COWIE:  Yes, of course we would.

6370             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  $10,000 per year for scholarships to Keyano College.

6371             MR. COWIE:  Yes.

6372             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Who will control these funds?  Will it be you or the college?

6373             MR. COWIE:  The college will.

6374             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  The college will.  And what would the selection process be?  Do you write a cheque to the college or would you write a cheque to the students?

6375             MR. COWIE:  The only criteria that we require is that it be for music students.  After that, the college will make that decision as to who receives them, on merit and need.

6376             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Will this be a one $10,000 scholarship or five at $2,000 or 10 at $1,000?

6377             MR. COWIE:  No, they are ‑‑ what is it?

6378             MR. OLSTROM:  There are four annually.

6379             MR. COWIE:  Four at $10,000 each.

6380             MR. OLSTROM:  Four at $10,000.

6381             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Four at $10,000 each?  Okay.

6382             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That's a lot of money.  I'm going back to school.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

6383             MR. COWIE:  Many of the students at Keyano College are from outside the marketplace and there is a fairly significant group of First Nations people in those classes, and so on, so there is a need for scholarships at this level here.

6384             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  $30,000 per year to the Interplay Visual and Performing Arts Festival.

6385             MR. COWIE:  Yes.

6386             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  You indicated that this contribution would be limited to performance fees for Canadian artists.

6387             MR. COWIE:  Yes.  We wanted to make sure that every dollar of it went into the pockets of performers.

6388             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Would you accept this as a condition of licence?

6389             MR. COWIE:  Yes, we will.  And we have agreement from the Interplay group that that indeed will happen.

6390             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Your news mentoring programming to be offered to a person selected by APTN.

6391             I know this isn't in your CTD, but it is a benefit of this application.

6392             Is this is a paid internship?

6393             MR. COWIE:  It is a paid internship.  The candidate will be paid by Harvard, the company.  That is part of Harvard's contribution to this program.  So we accepted that responsibility as part of our agreement with APTN.

6394             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  this is for one intern?

6395             MR. COWIE:  It is one intern per year.  We agree to hire at least one of those candidates over the period of the licence, over the seven years.  I say "at least one" because we may, and we are hopeful, of creating more than one candidate who we will then hire into our newsroom.

6396             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  If we were to ask you to maintain this internship program over the course of your licence term on a year‑by‑year basis, would you accept that as a COL?

6397             MR. COWIE:  Absolutely, yes.

6398             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

6399             We will now move on to business plan and impact.

6400             If you were here yesterday you will have heard the legal counsel ask any applicants if they had revised their projections to file them with us.

6401             Did you revise your projections?

6402             MR. COWIE:  We revisited our projections.  We did not refile, and I will tell you why we didn't.

6403             In the first instance, we did budget forward.  We projected in our own thinking that there would be a bubble in the next year or two.  We did not predict the bubble as quickly in one year as did occur, but over our current state and our first year of operation we have picked up that ‑‑ our projections included that kind of increase in the marketplace.

6404             So our revenue projections are at somewhere between $4 and $4.5 million.  I don't know exactly what it is.  It might be higher than that.  If it is, that might serve to reduce our losses in the first five or six years.

6405             However, on the other side, on the cost operating side, we are absolutely ‑‑ we did budget high on that side and we are very comfortable with those numbers.

6406             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So you did take into account the relatively high cost of living ‑‑

6407             MR. COWIE:  Yes.

6408             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  ‑‑ in Fort McMurray and you stand by the financial projections as filed?

6409             MR. COWIE:  Yes.  I may have Paul Hill speak to this.  We also have the opportunity to somewhat control our own destiny in terms of availability of accommodation for people who will come into the market.  We will try to hire as many of our employees in the market as we can, but those that we can't, we are in a position to make sure (a) that we can provide accommodation and, if necessary, subsidize talent who might not otherwise come to Fort McMurray because of the costs, so we have made provisions for both of those.

6410             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Again, those provisions are included in your overall projections?

6411             MR. COWIE:  Yes, they are.

6412             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  You heard discussion yesterday about how in order to attract talent to this market, and because of the high cost of living, you may have to pay salaries higher than you currently do in other markets?

6413             MR. COWIE:  Yes.  What we have done there is, first of all we budgeted an average that is pretty much equal to ‑‑ I have just forgot the name of the exact study, but it was done by OK Radio, and it said that in the sales and service sector that the average salary was something like $56,000 a year.  We have budgeted at that level so we are okay there.

6414             If we are required to subsidize above that, we are able to do so.

6415             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Is $56,000 the average salary?

6416             MR. COWIE:  In that sales and service sector.  That is out of a report.

6417             MS SVEDHAL:  Bruce, if you will, I can jump in for a minute.

6418             MR. COWIE:  All right.

6419             MS SVEDHAL:  Our average salaries that we budgeted were $53,000.  The OK Radio submission on May 24th in the sales and service sector was $46,000, so we are about 14 percent above that.  Our overall expenditures are $11 million, which is the second highest of the applicants.  We have a 10 percent cushion in those numbers and I'm very confident that we are very reasonable with them.

6420             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  In terms of your staff numbers, how many staff members will be dedicated to news?

6421             MR. OLSTROM:  There will be four people dedicated to news in addition to the APTN reporter which will be providing stories of relevance on the aboriginal community.  So there are four people in news.

6422             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Will there be another group of people that will be dedicated to your spoken word local programming?

6423             MR. OLSTROM:  Those people, the spoken word programming will be developed through the news department as well as the on‑air talent and the programming department.

6424             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  How many on‑air announcers?

6425             MR. OLSTROM:  There are five.

6426             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  How many do you foresee in the programming department?

6427             MR. OLSTROM:  Those are five on‑air.

6428             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So they will be ‑‑

6429             MR. OLSTROM:  That would be a morning person, midday, afternoon and two evening swing.

6430             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So these nine people will be responsible for the five hours and 53 minutes of news and information programming?

6431             MR. OLSTROM:  No, the news and information will be developed primarily by the news department.

6432             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Including Canadian Showcase?

6433             MR. OLSTROM:  That would be a function of the programming department.  So the program director in conjunction with the other on‑air talent would produce these programs and develop these programs over the course of the week.

6434             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  All right.

6435             So the total of 15 hours and 53 minutes will be produced locally?

6436             MR. OLSTROM:  That is correct.

6437             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  There will be no programming shared with your other stations?

6438             MR. OLSTROM:  No.  No, none at all.

6439             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Are there any synergies at all with your other stations?

6440             MR. OLSTROM:  We did not look at any synergies, however, you know, if we found that there was a requirement to do so on a traffic basis or an accounting basis, that may occur, but we haven't planned for that in this situation.

6441             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So right now your plans are to be a standalone station in Fort McMurray?

6442             MR. OLSTROM:  Fully standalone operation, yes.

6443             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Which of course leads me to the big question that we always ask.

6444             As you know, there is a very strong incumbent in the area and how do you, as an independent coming into this market, believe that you will be able to compete with the incumbent already in Fort McMurray?

6445             MR. COWIE:  We may give you several answers on that, Commissioner.

6446             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  The one you want the most for us to believe would be the good one.

6447             MR. COWIE:  Well, it is the highest demand format in Canada.  It is not present here in the marketplace.

6448             We have a combination of things.  We think we can come successfully into the market and, second, we think we can come successfully into the market and not upset the incumbent too much, because there are two stations sharing the total marketplace.

6449             I will go to Michael for the detail of this, but we think there is enough room, the market is growing fast enough and will grow over time to accept the radio station successfully and allow us to do all the things we want to do and compete at a very high level.

6450             MR. OLSTROM:  The thing you have to remember is, Adult Contemporary is a female leaning or skewing format and both the current radio station is a Rock station, a Country station, tend to be more predominant male.  Just in our anecdotal I guess qualitative research that we did in the marketplace and talking to a lot of women in the marketplace, it was like "Oh, my God, thank you.  Something for us".  So that solidified our decision in the direction that we should take.

6451             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  How many radio stations do you believe Fort McMurray can handle?

6452             MR. COWIE:  I just looked at more economic information this morning that I have seen for the first time and the notion that this is a five‑year bubble and then everything is going to slow down just isn't going to happen.  This is going to go on for a long period of time.

6453             I think in this first phase, with the immediate growth we are seeing, we think it is likely that two licences would be appropriate.  Because within the timeframe of this licence period certainly there would be room for four stations in this market.

6454             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  You have heard us ask other applicants about whether or not you felt it was such a strong market that we could even license two additional stations with similar formats.

6455             What are your thoughts on that?

6456             MR. COWIE:  That would not ‑‑

6457             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  If you were one of the two, would you alter your format in any way if we were to do that?

6458             MR. COWIE:  Well, that's a different question, but if ‑‑

6459             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  It goes hand‑in‑hand.

6460             MR. COWIE:  If we were one of two licensed in the same format we would adapt and compete and we would be quite comfortable with that.  That would not be our first choice, however.

6461             But I look at the roster of applicants here and there aren't a lot of choices in terms of variety of formats.  There are literally three and three.

6462             I understand your dilemma, but there is one older demographic, I guess, that has to be recognized in that equation as well in the lounge.

6463             But we would be quite comfortable and happy to compete, if that was the Commission's decision.

6464             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  You know that two of the applicants before us are proposing gospel music stations.  Do you think that the market could sustain two additional services, plus one of them?

6465             MR. COWIE:  We think that is probable too.

6466             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  That is ‑‑

6467             MR. COWIE:  Yes.

6468             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  ‑‑ a problem?

6469             MR. COWIE:  No, no.  That's possible, too.

6470             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.  Thank you.

6471             Thank you, Mr. Chair, those are my questions.

6472             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cram...?

6473             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  After yesterday I'm a little worried about broadcasters from my region.

6474             Can you tell me, Mr. Hill or Mr. Cowie, why you applied here and not Grande Prairie?

6475             MR. COWIE:  Well, I thought about that overnight and I thought of some answer that equated to what Elmer Hildebrand was doing on that day.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

6476             MR. COWIE:  But I didn't want to go there particularly.

6477             Actually, in the circle of life and the sequence of things, at the time we were presented with the idea we did look at Grande Prairie.

6478             Presented with that idea we had a dilemma to deal with.  We believed then and believe now that a major market radio station is vital to our regional strategy, so our focus was clearly on Calgary.  Sequentially all of those things might look like they don't line up, but they do.

6479             Secondarily to that, and after a lot of thinking about it, the synergies that would exist between Calgary ‑‑ and we are not trying to presuppose anything here ‑‑ the synergies that would exist between the oil plant, which is here in Fort McMurray, and the ownership and management of it which is in Calgary, appealed to us.

6480             If you have two licences based on that kind of geographic connection and also business and social connection, it seemed to us that that would be the best place of the two for us.

6481             So we did think about applying for both, but at the end of the day that would be a much better configuration for us we think and would allow for information flowing both ways to our listeners about what is going on in the province from both a corporate point of view and from the place where it is actually taking place.

6482             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I have to say, that is a better answer than ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

6483             MR. COWIE:  I agree with that.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

6484             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You had to work on it, though, eh?  Sorry.

6485             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  But Mr. Hildebrand's was nice and short and we like pithy, epigrammatic responses.  We are giving him marks on that.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

6486             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I will ask my normal question about voice‑tracking.  How much are you planning?

6487             MR. OLSTROM:  There will be none during the broadcast week.

6488             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Would you agree to a COL?

6489             MR. OLSTROM:  Does the Commission ‑‑

6490             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  If you recall, I asked ‑‑

6491             MR. OLSTROM:  Yes, we would.

6492             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I asked the people last in Grande Prairie the same thing.

6493             MR. OLSTROM:  Yes, we would, Commissioner Cram.

6494             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

6495             My last question is:  Mr. Alexander, I had a hard time pronouncing your name when I went to visit you at the Creek.  Yuzicapi?

6496             MR. ALEXANDER:  Yuzicapi is my real last name.  William Alexander is on‑air name.

6497             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  How is the Creek doing?

6498             MR. ALEXANDER:  It's doing fine.  It's on its way back, yes.

6499             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Oh, excellent.

6500             Thank you.  Thank you very much

6501             Thank you, Mr. Chair/

6502             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Williams...?

6503             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good morning, Mr. Cowie and Olstrom and panellists.

6504             I think I agree with you that decisions are made in Calgary and the plant is in Fort McMurray, but there is some considered belief that the money is spent in Edmonton, given the vast number of Fort McMurray workers that are on the highway between Fort McMurray and Edmonton every weekend, or I think it's Wednesday nights and weekends.

6505             Do you expect much of your ad revenue to come from Edmonton businesses?

6506             MR. COWIE:  We had not considered approaching Edmonton businesses, no.

6507             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So other than national advertisers your sales projections are focused primarily on the Fort McMurray market?

6508             MR. COWIE:  Yes.

6509             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  All right.  Thank you very much.

6510             That's my question.

6511             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cram again.

6512             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Sorry.

6513             In your written talk today you talked about leading to the Aboriginal Media Education Fund.  I have never heard of that.

6514             Can you tell me what that is?

6515             MR. COWIE:  Do you want to answer that?

6516             MR. OLSTROM:  Actually, what I would like to do is I would like to have Debra McLaughlin speak to that, because through her and ourselves and APTN Debra has background knowledge that she can relay to you.

6517             MR. COWIE:  Just before she does that, Commissioner Cram, Jean LaRose, the President and CEO of APTN will be here to speak about that in Phase III.

6518             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.

6519             MR. COWIE:  But Debra has done the liaison work for us on this very special project, so we will have her answer.

6520             MS McLAUGHLIN:  The Aboriginal Media Education Fund was borne out of really a necessity and APTN is a lead sponsor in it.  Repeatedly APTN was challenged to find, not story ideas necessarily but the people to develop those story ideas into productions.  Not only that, they were continually being approached as the resource, or the potential resource, for referrals to talented aboriginal producers, writers, cameramen, any phase of production.  It became quite clear in some aspects that they were in danger of losing their staff and they couldn't find the people.

6521             So collectively I believe ‑‑ and as Bruce mentioned Jean LaRose will be here later to explain it in more detail ‑‑ but the idea of putting together a fund that was contributed to by many aspects and many companies in and outside the broadcasting industry was developed.

6522             It was announced this winter.  It was presented, I believe at Banff, and I know that Mr. LaRose has had meetings with some people at the Commission ‑‑ I'm not sure who, I wasn't party to those meetings ‑‑ to discuss this.

6523             The Harvard involvement comes ‑‑ actually, part of the reason he believed that this fund could work was because of the kind of initiatives Harvard was taking in actually mentoring, taking people into their organization and at the end of the year turning out skilled, in this case, news gatherers, news reporters.

6524             So it was announced, as I say, I believe this past winter.  It has been discussed with the Commission and it is now a viable fund with a separate operating company, I believe based in Toronto, and I think the goal is $10 million and they have started to collect that.

6525             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

6526             Thank you, Mr. Chair.

6527             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mrs. Cram.  I had a very similar question, so thank you for asking.

6528             Going back to your CTD plans, we quickly discussed VoicePrint and you answered if the Commission was to say that VoicePrint was not meeting the notion of CTD you will redirect the funding.

6529             Have you made up your mind where you will redirect that money?

6530             MR. COWIE:  We have not, but I would say this, that it would be directed in the area of music talent within the genre that we propose for this radio station and, as always, it would be in payments to artists to help them along in their careers.

6531             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Have you so far made any commitments to VoicePrint regarding the CTD commitment you were ready to make?

6532             MR. COWIE:  I think I have to ask Debra to answer that.  I don't think we have.

6533             MS McLAUGHLIN:  There has been a letter exchanged.  The Commission would have a copy in the file of a letter of support expressing VoicePrint's understanding that the funding will be coming to them.

6534             However, I have to qualify that by saying that VoicePrint hasn't spent the money, as it were, because their target in receiving these funds was to develop aboriginal readers and narrators.

6535             As you know, they have both skilled and non‑skilled readers and they have become quite the training base for providing people with their first exposure to on‑air presentation.

6536             So if the Commission was to decide that this was an ineligible recipient, then VoicePrint would not be negatively impacted as the program itself has not been developed for the Fort McMurray area.

6537             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

6538             I know that legal counsel has a question.

6539             MS FISHER:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

6540             I just wanted to clarify, you have indicated that you will provide additional information relating to your Local Advisory Committee at some point today and I just wanted to clarify if you could please provide that before the beginning of Phase III.

6541             MR. COWIE:  Yes, indeed we can.

6542             MS FISHER:  Thank you.

6543             Those are my questions.

6544             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

6545             Mr. Cowie, you have two minutes to tell us why Harvard should be granted the licence to serve Fort McMurray.

6546             MR. COWIE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

6547             This is the part I like.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

6548             MR. COWIE:  At every hearing we try to find an analogy for our proposal and I'm going to thank Commissioner Langford for providing it for us on this occasion from a conversation yesterday.

6549             We are not the prince wandering the country with a slipper looking for a perfect fit.  Our proposal is the perfect fit for Fort McMurray.

6550             We offer a format Adult Contemporary that is not available in the market despite being the number one music format in Canada.

6551             Our version of AC is tailor‑made for Fort McMurray.  A proposal of 70 percent AC and 30 percent Pop clearly fills a program gap in the market and it meets consumer demand for this new service.  We offer you a format that appeals both to the under served female segment of the population and provides a listening opportunity for the youth in the market.

6552             Our core demo is 18‑44, a group that represents approximately 52 percent of the city's population.  Clearly our format will serve the needs of the majority.

6553             With 40 percent Canadian content, 25 percent of which will be devoted to new and emerging Canadian artists, Harvard will play a key role in developing Canadian artists and provide what is often missing in radio.

6554             The residents of Fort McMurray told us what they value and we have responded.  They want variety.  We are offering a broad AC format that appeals to both ends of the 18‑54 demographic and a strong commitment to new and emerging artists.

6555             News and information.  We are offering a comprehensive local news service which will provide extensive local reflection.  They want diversity.  With only two stations currently in the market we will be able to offer new music currently not available.

6556             In summary, Mr. Chairman, our format adds diversity.

6557             Our commitment to Canadian music will showcase indigenous talent with an emphasis on new Canadian artists.

6558             Our CTD package will develop talent at the local level, provide new resources to the vision impaired, and help train a new generation of aboriginal reporters.

6559             Finally, we know this market.  We have a significant presence in the real estate and housing markets and are involved in the oil sands.  This has provided us with invaluable insight into this unique and growing place.

6560             To ensure we reflect the community at all times, we have established a Local Advisory Committee, the members of which have strong ties to Fort McMurray.

6561             Mr. Chairman, we are prepared to invest in and grow with Fort McMurray.  We have found the slipper that fits, and with your approval Harvard and Fort McMurray will live happily ever after.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

6562             MR. COWIE:  Thank you very much.

6563             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Cowie.  Thank you to your team.

6564             We will take a 10‑minute, so we will get back for 10 to 10:00.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 0940 / Suspension à 0940

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1000 / Reprise à 1000

6565             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary, would you call the next applicant, please?

6566             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

6567             Before we introduce the next panel I would just like to indicate that the applicant Harvard has just filed the additional information on their Local Advisory Committee.  The information will be placed on their application file and will be available in the examination room.

6568             We are now ready to proceed with Item 16 on the Agenda, which is an application by King's Kids Promotions Outreach Ministries Incorporated for a licence to operate an English‑language low power commercial specialty FM radio programming undertaking in Fort McMurray.

6569             The new station would operate on frequency 91.1 MHz, channel 216LP, with an effective radiated power of 35 watts, non‑directional antenna/antenna height of 71.5 metres.

6570             Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Rick Kirschner, who will introduce his colleagues.  You will then have 20 minutes for your presentation.

6571             Mr. Kirschner...?

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

6572             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Thank you.

6573             Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Members of CRTC and Commission staff.  Thank you for hearing our presentation today, but also for taking the time to investigate thoroughly the ramification of applicants for Fort McMurray, Alberta which is very distinct and unique in its social situation.

6574             Presenters for King's Kids Promotions Outreach Ministries Incorporated are, on my right, Dave Kirschner, a 28‑year resident and business owner in Fort McMurray.  Dave is a father, and a grandfather who has been involved in the social, economic and many other areas of the city's development during that time.

6575             On my left is Mr. Bruce Taylor an 11‑year pastor, parent and founder of the Centre for Hope, street‑level outreach in Fort McMurray.

6576             My name is Rick Kirschner.  I am a parent of three teenagers, a former Ontario Police Officer, business owner and currently an ordained minister.

6577             Mr. Chairman, we are here today to present our proposal for a new and distinct music service for Fort McMurray residents, a Christian music service, a specialty station with at least 90 percent of the weekly total music drawn from subcategory 35.

6578             KAOS 91.1, with a vision to "Expose Hope thru relevant Music, Talk, and Action", will impact more than simply the entertainment realm, but also the social, educational and spiritual climate of Fort McMurray as well.

6579             Today we will give a brief overview of King's Kids Promotions, which has been incorporated since 1992; its history prior to radio; it's current operation of KAOS 99.5 in Peterborough, Ontario, including a short DVD of how KAOS is unique from other Christian operations in Canada; why it is so appealing and applauded by Christian and secular artists, as well as secular and Christian advertisers.

6580             Number two, King's Kids presentation will also include an overview of the need for the format of the proposed station, as well as current partnerships and support already developed within the community.

6581             King's Kids lengthy history of Canadian Talent Development prior to radio broadcasting will be mentioned throughout this presentation.

6582             MR. D. KIRSCHNER:  Mr. Chairman, King's Kids was established by Reverend Rick and Cathy Kirschner and team in 1992 with a vision to "reach, build, and activate youth to impact the world for Jesus Christ".  Through music and performing arts, work projects and world mission trips, King's Kids has been involved with hundreds of youth, both Christian and secular, to help them reach their potential in life.

6583             Rick, a youth pastor for the past 18 years at Selwyn Outreach Centre, has always been encouraged to do whatever it takes to engage youth and help them grow.  Rick is very familiar with the youth culture of Canada, being a former police officer, high school teacher and youth pastor before entering radio broadcasting.

6584             On studying his Master's Degree in reaching the North American youth culture in the 21st century, Rick became even more convinced that the media was the most significant force in the culture today, a force that can either strengthen or weaken any community.

6585             In early 2000 Rick began to explore the Christian radio ministry, having been involved with the development of many Canadian artists prior to this time.  For Rick and King's Kids this is a natural fit, simply an extension of what they have been doing for years.

6586             King's Kids has produced seven Canadian CDs on an amateur basis and is currently working on two more.  Many of the over 100 first‑time artists King's Kids has recorded have gone on to write, produce, record and perform in professional careers today.

6587             King's Kids continues to reach people who need hope, encourage them to grow and pursue their dreams and help them become active in making the world a better place.

6588             Trevor McNevan from Thousand Foot Krutch states:

"I collectively have 2 bands on Tooth and Nail/EMI Records, Both `Thousand Foot Krutch' and `FM Static', as well as producing/ songwriting with/for other artists in this industry.  Rick Kirschner and KAOS Radio Peterborough have been a tremendous support to both our bands, both on and off the stage.  Even before the license was in hand, they were a large staple for encouraging and nurturing many local artists.  Their hearts are good, their vision is strong, and myself as well as many other Canadian U.S. artists I know will always support, and appreciate the help of KAOS Radio..."

6589             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Right now we would like to turn your attention to the DVD.

‑‑‑ Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

6590             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  King's Kids current operation, KAOS 99.5 in Peterborough, Ontario.

6591             KAOS in Peterborough went on the air 24 November 2004, a low‑power undertaking which nicely covers the major population of the city.  The Contemporary Hit/Rock format of the station has mass appeal with the 34 and under demographic, but is also readily validated by those older in its ability to motivate and influence the younger generation.

6592             Music with Christian themes comes in many styles and expressions, from Rock, Hip‑Hop, traditional/classic, Skaw, Pop, Adult Contemporary and many more.

6593             Although 90 percent of the music comes from the subcategory 35, the other 10 percent could easily be considered the same type of music but written and performed by secular artists.  In no way does it stand against Judeo Christian themes and morality.  In fact, it is often more overt in its stance for Christian themes and morality than some Christian artists.

6594             The uniqueness of KAOS radio is its branding and approach to the market.  From the name "KAOS', which to many has a negative connotation although it is derived from the Bible in Genesis one, to the avoidance of calling the itself "Christian" has allowed the station to be positioned in the market as a positive new music alternative while not being considered religious.

6595             Post‑9/11 North American culture seems to be demanding a more positive approach from the music industry.  KAOS radio has responded to that need by exposing new music to our communities that emphasize hope and fun.

6596             MR. TAYLOR:  Mr. Chairman, the major benefit of this positioning and branding is threefold:

6597             First, Christian and Christian‑valued music and artists get exposed to the general market because thousands tune into a new music station that would never listen to a Christian station because they are often perceived as Bible‑thumping stations asking for money.

6598             A poor definition of Christianity has often caused people to shy away from things called Christian.  The following is an unsolicited e‑mail:

"Thank YOU so much for your wonderful station.  I listen at work on the internet everyday ... it ministers to me in a way that I never expected.  I have come to know some awesome bands like thousand foot Krutch through listening through your station...  My husband and I hope to move to Peterborough someday and are thankful that such a resource will be available to our girls ... when they need it. ‑ Wendy"

6599             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Mr. Chairman, the spirituality of the music is attractive to the audience and encourages both Christian and non‑Christian alike.  Youth social agencies are featured and lifestyle issues are explored in ways that are palatable to our listeners.

6600             Sometimes Christianity has been poorly defined by history.  This antiquated definition makes the religion not appealing to the culture.  By removing the name which is often poorly defined and misleading anyways, people can experience the ways and purposes of Christian spirituality for themselves.  The new approach is usually only offensive to some Christians who believes we are not being true to our beliefs.  However, consistently we engage a large number of non‑Christian people who are seeking spirituality but not religion.

6601             Dr. Dave for youth is an ordained Baptist Minister with a Ph.D. in Education.  He airs a feature on KAOS 99.5 in Peterborough.  Dave presents Judeo Christian value, talks to kids using common language.  He doesn't quote chapter and verse, although he is quoting the Bible and young people love it and are tuned in.

6602             Another example of this approach being beneficial was the production of a CD, which is included in your package, called "Journey, a Tribute to the life of Aaron Montgomery".  This CD incorporated positive encouraging general market and Christian music which was distributed to the entire population of a secular high school to help them cope with the suicide of a fellow student.  New and old Canadian Christian artists were exposed to the entire group and a major service was provided to a grieving student body.

6603             Post‑modern North American culture is very hungry for spiritual things and for the gospel of Jesus Christ if presented in relevant ways.

6604             Sonia, one girl says:

"I'm listening to Lucid Noize show on grieving and it answered some of my prayers.  When my mom died I just felt like giving up, it's to hard to be strong and to live without her on my own, when I heard you mention on Lucid Noize that with a loss of a close person sometimes we feel like dying with them, that's how I felt‑ but when you said `if there is one message just don't give up, grief is hard but it's going to get easier and you can get through it", those words helped me a lot.  Thanks for doing Lucid Noize and the messages".

6605             MR. TAYLOR:  A third benefit is that advertisers enjoy the positive music and programming, and although some is overtly Christian they are willing to support it because it is moral.  Many businesses advertise on our station because we have a moral positive stance.  There is no off‑coloured humour or sexual innuendo and people appreciate that whether they are Christian or not.

6606             Many Christians share values with other world religions and so by not branding the station Christian, but by upholding Judeo Christian values, initiatives, traditions and some overtly Christian specialty shows, the station has a much wider appeal and brings much wider market shares as a result.

6607             This philosophy of positive contemporary hit music is well received in Peterborough and the letters of support and community partnerships prove it.

6608             We have promised financial support from several Fort McMurray businesses who are not Christian because they believe in the moral philosophy of the station.

6609             Peterborough KAOS has a wide appeal because of how we include our values of promoting young local talent in our marketing and sales initiatives.  Currently our KAOS radio rode show incorporates a new act called "Stars on Stage" to our remotes.  Not only do we do a radio broadcast from the location, but we bring in three hours of bright Canadian local talent.  Every one wins.  The retail client gets a real show to enhance their event; the performers receive much needed exposure to the public; and KAOS radio adds value to its service, which makes us competitive in the market.

6610             This years' show includes over 20 new performers.  We are currently developing and hosting the "Peterborough Pop Idol" to be held at the Peterborough Exhibition, and the "Stars on Stage" are hosting a stage at the International Plowing Match in Peterborough this September.

6611             The organization is not even a year old and it is playing at premier venues sponsored by KAOS Radio.  Many corporate sponsors embrace this because of the community‑mindedness and promotion of local Canadian talent.

6612             Mr. Chairman, we will now look at expanding on our Canadian Talent Development.

6613             King's Kids has, for the past two years, conducted several battle of the bands in conjunction with local catholic and public school boards.  We have purchased and lend a professional sound system to schools churches and other groups and hold monthly shows designed to encourage and mentor new bands and artists.

6614             Our financial investment far exceeds the minimum requirements and is much more than proposed in our original application.  Again, our history shows we have consistently invested in Canadian Talent before we had a radio operation, and I believe KAOS operates in the true spirit of the CRTC's Canadian Talent Development requirements.

6615             A couple of Canadian bands have commented in your notes to support this.  They are there for you to read later, we wouldn't have time.

6616             But, Mr. Chairman, now we will continue with a review of the need for this Christian radio format in Fort McMurray.

6617             As a pastor and long‑time resident of Fort McMurray, there are many social issues that have emerged over time that we deal with on a daily basis.  It has brought me a great deal of hope to understand that there are those who want to come to Fort McMurray to make a difference in the community.  We have many people and businesses that come to our area to make money.

6618             We have a lot of spin‑off issues because of the fast‑paced growth that the drive for financial gain brings:  Drug and alcohol abuse, kids being kicked out of their homes, homeless people and families, a high cost of living that brings a sense of poverty to many working people, and other issues.

6619             KAOS radio is committed to being a part of the solutions to these types of issues.  They have expressed their primary desire for this proposal as being the need to provide a positive influence in the lives of the young people in our community.  Also, they have expressed the desire to partner with other non-profit agencies like the Salvation Army Shelter, the Centre of Hope for the homeless, Young Life, Youth with a Mission, the Soup Kitchen and others.

6620             I have reviewed most of the other applications and have even had some discussion with those involved with some of the those applications.  They have expressed a desire to be involved in the community, however this has always been secondary and they are business‑driven first.

6621             KAOS has shown time and time again that they will be committed to our community and flexible to how that needs to work.  As a Pastor, I can assure you that the majority of the church community is supportive of this application.  Also, I am certain that many of our churches will want to partner with the station for special events, advertising and concerts.  KAOS Radio would be a positive influence in our Community.

6622             MR. D. KIRSCHNER:  Mr. Chairman, we have a large‑base local steering committee and several letters to commit time and finances.  My KAOS 91.1 in Fort MCMurray with a vision to expose hope through relevant music, talk and action is bound to succeed.

6623             While we do not went to generalize or overstate the serious condition in Fort McMurray, we do want to acknowledge that there are significant social ills that affect every socioeconomic level of society.

6624             As stated by Rev Taylor, the mission of KAOS radio is to raise a standard of involvement in the social fabric of the community to not only offer a healthier music and programming solution, but to offer and support the many social services that are currently caring for the community.

6625             In a letter of support for our application by M.P. Brian Jean, he states the preference for a station in Fort McMurray with a mandate to help the younger demographic, a station that inspires personal community involvement and is not focused on making money as much as making a positive community difference.

6626             Our records indicate over 264 general letters of support and at least 20 business letters were mailed to the CRTC.  We regret that over 163 were returned as they were not received in time; even having been mailed 10 days prior to the deadline for interventions.

6627             Our Mayor, Melissa Blake, writes that she particularly likes the fact that this station is locally steered and programmed.

6628             From MP to MLA to our Mayor, every level of Fort McMurray government is supportive of the vision and people behind the station.  The church community has strongly supported this application from Evangelicals to Roman Catholics, including a letter from the Knights of Columbus who pledge financial support, as well as the youth ministry coordinator and many other parishioners.

6629             The Assistant Superintendent of the catholic board, Kim Jenkins, has pledged support and a keen interest, as well as principals from both the elementary and other high schools.

6630             This application includes interventions of people who have never advertised on radio before, but who have pledged significant financial support.  We also showed promise for others who currently advertise on radio that they would be willing to support as well financially.

6631             Rev Taylor and other local pastors all strongly support the application and suggest that they will also donate in significant ways to launch the station.

6632             KAOS staff has already been working to help locals develop their talent.  An excerpt from an unsolicited letter as follows expresses thanks to Mr. Kirschner's help with a local band:

"... Rick I want to thank you for the time you spent with me an `Liberty's Prelude' we appreciate your patience and care you gave us at our practice we look forward to you coming up here and helping out bands like us... Josh (McDaniel) Fort McMurray"

6633             Another established relationship agrees in principle to a partnership with KAOS.  Russell Thomas with the local publicist at Keyano Theatre has said that:

"During the annual InterPlay Festival of the Visual and Performing Arts, KAOS will sponsor a Sunday morning Musical Celebration of Faith.  Currently, the festival does not have any programming on the Sunday morning.  The Musical Celebration of Faith would be non‑denominational event that give the local performers a chance to express themselves in front of a family audience."

6634             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  In closing, King's Kids and KAOS 91.1 are responding to a need in Fort McMurray.  I believe we have demonstrated impressive local support and a business plan which will help us make this resource a reality.

6635             We believe our long history of Canadian Talent Development, even before we were involved in broadcasting, is a reflection of the true spirit of the CRTC'S Canadian Talent Development requirement.

6636             King's Kids unique philosophy and approach with this new and distinct Christian music service is refreshing and bold and has proven in Peterborough to draw many people to this format, exposing more Christian and general market Canadian talent to the citizens of Canada.

6637             Thank you for your time.  We look forward to answering your questions.

6638             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Kirschner.

6639             Commissioner Williams...?

6640             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good morning, Mr. Kirschner and Taylor.

6641             I note you have filed some revised revenue and expense numbers here that I guess is almost a 70‑80 percent increase in sales revenue for example.

6642             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  That is correct, sir.  That was done prior to coming

6643             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  All right.  Thank you.

6644             Why have you chosen to use a 35 watt transmitter in the Fort McMurray marketplace?

6645             Is this power enough to serve your entire proposed market?

6646             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  We found that wattage successful in Peterborough.  We did take that to our consultant and engineer in Montreal and he seemed to think that was quite sufficient to cover the area so we went ahead with that.

6647             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I'm not familiar with Peterborough.  How large is Peterborough in population, say, compared to McMurray?

6648             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  It is 72,000 people.

6649             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So a little larger then?

6650             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  The competing Christian radio application is a 20,000 watt station and I was just curious about this.

6651             Go ahead, Mr. Chair.

6652             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Back to the question that Commissioner Williams was asking you regarding technical, are they high enough buildings in Fort McMurray?

6653             MR. D. KIRSCHNER:  Yes.

6654             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Where do you plan to have your antenna?  Is it on the top of a building or on top of a mountain?

6655             MR. D. KIRSCHNER:  Our tower is actually just to the southeast of the city in the industrial park.

6656             If I could refer to the CRTC's document it gives the tower heights and I believe the tower that we are looking at transmitting out of is 71 metres, which is about a third higher than the other applicants.

6657             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So a 35 watt will give you fairly ‑‑ well, I can see the map and I know the engineers there, so I'm sure that they have taken everything into consideration, but I wanted only not to lead you to believe that there was some problems.

6658             All right.  Thank you.

6659             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I'm going to spend a bit of time gaining a better understanding of your proposed music format now.

6660             We note that 90 percent of your music will come from subcategory 35, non‑classic religious.  In your supplementary brief you describe your music format as Hot Adult Contemporary and Contemporary hit radio.  We realize that some artists that produce music in the non‑classic religious genre, Category 3, can find their music on billboards Hot AC or CHR charts as crossover artists.  As you know, these selections are usually classified as Category 2 music.

6661             This being said, could you explain to us how your musical format which you define as Hot AC, CHR format, will be predominantly 90 percent composed music from subcategory 35 non‑classic religious?

6662             Is it that contemporary music styles are also being produced by Canadian artists?

6663             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  I'm sorry, I'm not really getting the full depth of the question.  I'm sorry.

6664             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  All right, I will go through it again.  No problem.

6665             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Thank you.  Sorry.

6666             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Can you please explain to us how your musical format, which you define as Hot Adult Contemporary and Contemporary hit radio format will still be predominantly 90 percent composed of music from subcategory 35, which is non‑classic religious?

6667             Could it be possible and is it possible that contemporary music styles are also being produced by Christian artists?

6668             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  That is correct.  There is almost exponential growth in the Christian music industry responding to the need for Christian contemporary music, Rock and CHR music as well.

6669             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I note that your programming will be directed mainly towards the youth of Fort McMurray.

6670             For the record, could you tell me what demographic will make up your core target audience and what would you expect would be the median age?

6671             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  We project our major demographic to be 18 to 34, our secondary demographic to be 16 to 44.  The median age we would expect to be 29 years old.

6672             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Twenty‑nine years old.  I guess you are still a youth at 29, judging on my children.

6673             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Actually, at 44.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

6674             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How similar or different will your proposed Fort McMurray station be to your existing Peterborough service?

6675             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Peterborough service is a CHR/Rock station.  It will be similar in the evenings when we would go to more of a Rock format or add some Rock to the format, being a little more inviting to the younger demographic.  But primarily in the day would be that Hot AC, CHR music format, a little bit of rock thrown in for the old rockers.

6676             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  All right.

6677             In your deficiency response you indicated that 95 percent of the programming would be locally produced and the remaining 5 percent would feature programs which will assist in addressing issues of relevance in the Fort McMurray area.

6678             Could you tell us where the remaining 5 percent of the programming would originate from, indicating if it is Canadian or non‑Canadian and the amount from each source?

6679             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  We are working potentially ‑‑ and the finalization will be up to the local steering committee, but we do anticipate local brokered programming of approximately three hours a week.  It could be people such as Focus on the Family, Insight for Living, Chuck Swindoll.

6680             This is American programming.  We are working hard to develop our own Canadian programming similar to this.  We have done that with Dr. Dave Overholt from Hamilton, Ontario.  We have developed Canadian Christian programming that we would like to air, but up to this point the quality is not yet sufficient to be deemed viable and suitable for the station.

6681             So three hours, to answer your question, would be brokered program.  The rest would be locally produced.

6682             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How soon do you anticipate being able to replace that American programming with Canadian‑produced?

6683             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  I would be going out on a limb to really say that, but we have developed these two shows right now that are becoming prominent and there has been some ‑‑ Lucid Noize is the other program that we are half an hour.  It is a Canadian‑produced program in our studios by our volunteers and people on the streets in Peterborough, and there has been people interested in that program across the country.

6684             So I would like to say we could by next year be doing at least one hour, but I just really don't know how soon we could replace that completely.

6685             I would love to do it immediately.

6686             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes, I'm not looking for a condition, I was just looking for some leading indicators of where it was going.

6687             In reply to a deficiency response, you indicated that the proposed station would broadcast 67 hours per week of live‑to‑air programming and 32 hours voice‑track, for a total of 99 hours of programming per week.  The regulated broadcast week is 126 hours, which leaves 27 hours out of the broadcast week unaccounted for in your programming commitments.

6688             How do you plan to program these 27 hours that you have not accounted for?  Will you offer more station‑produced programming or would you fill this gap with syndicated programming or some other type of network programming?

6689             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  We would like to fulfil it with local programming.  In Peterborough we do police features that are just a two‑minute feature ‑‑ or a one‑minute feature twice a day with the local police officers speaking about issues that are currently relevant to the demographic.  So we would produce those.

6690             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  We note your spoken work programming will also encompass 15 hours per week with four hours of that being devoted to news.  I also note that for the proposed station your programming staff requirements would be as follows:  One program director, one production manager and one part‑time on‑air news person and morning show co‑host.

6691             Do you believe these proposed staffing numbers are sufficient in order to realize your proposed spoken word programming?

6692             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Commissioner Williams, you will note in the supplement that we ‑‑

6693             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Actually, I'm just turning to it.

6694             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  All right.  We have adjusted that.

6695             As a result of our consultants as well as the local steering committee and the report issued by OK Radio, we recognized before we came here that we might be relying a little bit too much on the volunteer population in Fort McMurray.  Recent trends there have said volunteerism has dropped as well because of such a high demand in every other realm.

6696             So we have made adjustments long before this week to make those adjustments and now it looks like we are working at nine full‑time equivalent.  And we still really are engaged with the community and the social agencies, so we really do believe we are going to have a high concentration of volunteers, but we know we can operate with nine full‑time equivalent.

6697             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  All right, that's good.

6698             What role will your volunteers play at your station and who will train them?

6699             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Volunteers will take many roles, right from on‑air, and we have some tentative commitments for some local youth workers to play on‑air roles to enhance programming.  There will certainly be members of the social service agencies that will be stringers and reporters from different areas in the community.

6700             Certainly the community involvement is where we will use those volunteers to report back.

6701             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Who will train these volunteers?

6702             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  They will be trained by a volunteer coordinator in coordination with the program director and under the station manager.

6703             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Regarding news, can you provide us with more information on how news would be gathered and packaged for broadcast on your station?

6704             For example, would that be the responsibility of your part‑time on‑air news people or who?

6705             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Yes, that is a part‑time person.  And some of that would be brokered news from radio news which has been recommended by UCB, Touch has also referred to this service.  It is a Canadian news service used by UCB in Belleville, Ontario and services most of the Christian industry.  We would use those for international and national news, and then the rest, the remainder, would be locally produced by our news anchor and the stringers as well.

6706             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  In your deficiency response you indicate that the proposed station will broadcast a minimum of 15 percent Canadian content in Category 3 music per week.

6707             What would be your reaction should the Commission impose this weekly level as a condition of licence?

6708             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  We would welcome that condition.

6709             In Peterborough I think we reported that we operate around 25 percent to a little bit less now.  Our concern is that the Canadian Christian content, there isn't as much available, although we are working hard and producing as many local bands as possible, but we think that is no problem to maintain that 15 percent easily.

6710             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  In response to a deficiency question regarding how many hours of religious spoken word programming you intend to do, you noted in one response that the proposed station intended to do five hours per week of religious programming, with additional three hours of locally produced religious programming on Sunday.

6711             However, in response to another question you indicated that the proposed station intended to air no more than six hours of religious spoken word programming.

6712             Could you take me through your program schedule and tell me which programs are religious and their length?  And then we will develop the totals, I guess, of how many hours of religious spoken programming there are.

6713             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  It's just around six hours.  I was trying to work these numbers again last night.

6714             But the three hours of religious spoken will be done by the local steering committee.  We believe that the churches and the religious community in Fort McMurray will do at least three hours Sunday morning.  That is yet to be defined but it will be in the hands of the local steering committee.

6715             The remainder will be ‑‑ again, this is potentially brokered.  Sometimes these big agencies don't like to go with low‑power FM stations so it's just a proposal that potentially we could get Focus on the Family, which is a very family friendly program.  There was a half an hour show twice a week.

6716             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How long was the first one?

6717             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  I'm sorry.  It's a half an hour program, it will be aired once Saturday and once Sunday.

6718             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  All right.

6719             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Insight for Living as well is a half an hour program, once Saturday and once Sunday.

‑‑‑ Pause

6720             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Chuck Swindoll I believe is actually a one‑minute feature.  I think it has both, a one‑minute or a short feature as well as a full half hour program.  In the schedule I believe we have programmed in one half hour once Saturday and once Sunday.

6721             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So what is that, 4.5 hours so far?

6722             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  I think it's six.

6723             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I'm just trying to establish the number of hours.

6724             You said five plus three, or in another case you said six, and we have established 4.5?

6725             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  I have our brokered programming ‑‑ if I can just start from the top again and see if that clarifies, I'm sorry.

6726             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Sure.  All right.  Yes, no problem.

6727             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Focus on the Family will be a half an hour Saturday and Sunday, total one hour weekly; Insight for Living, one half hour Saturday and Sunday, one hour weekly; Chuck Swindoll, half an hour Saturday and Sunday, which will be one hour weekly; the local church community, religious community, will be three hours on Sunday, which will be three hours weekly; and then there is a one‑minute Walk Mueller feature which airs once a day, which is a one‑minute ‑‑ seven minutes weekly.

6728             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So six hours and seven minutes would be a fair characterization?

6729             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Yes, sir.

6730             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  All right.  Thank you.

6731             Could you tell us a bit more about that religious programming?  For example, are we talking about station ‑‑ tell me a bit more about the station‑produced programming, programming produced and programming produced by a third party for your station.

6732             So what types of programming content would be featured in each of these types of programs?

6733             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Well, Lucid Noize is a program designed for youth social issues and it brings a spiritual opinion to the table.  We use our street team and our volunteers and our high school correspondents to gather information and they report on a series of questions related to the issue.

6734             We bring in local experts like Dr. Dave and people that are authorities in the particular area and they respond as we interact with the young people by way of a cellphone, you know a contact line, internet forum we interact, so we get quality data from the populace.

6735             The people who do the interviews are not even Christians necessarily, are students, so it is not biased in any way with that regard.  We would bring students in.  Co‑op students are not Christian students necessary and they come in, so it's unbiased, quite balanced programming.

6736             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

6737             In Peterborough you have been on‑air since 2004?

6738             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Correct.

6739             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  A similar demographic, a similar station.  What has been your experience in the support of the community of your undertaking?

6740             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  It has been exceptional actually.  The social component, being a former social worker, police office, I have quite a lot of connections with the community, so the social component is very well received.  In fact, with the Boards of Education we are regularly involved in every level of the process of education among young people.  It has been well received.

6741             We launched our radio station with pretty significant national advertising, McDonald's, Subway, these things, when we launched as a low‑power FM in 2004 and maintain those contacts for an entire year.  Unfortunately, the lack of the ability to afford BBM ratings last year, some of those big advertisers just go with the top four in the market and we didn't have the BBM rating to prove what we were doing.

6742             However, at every level in engagement relationship with people we are welcomed into the community.  Even as a Christian station that is very significant, to go in the public school board and be welcomed in every level of their programming.  They know that we know the rules with regards to proselytizing and things like that.  So we are a welcome voice.

6743             In fact, in this fall we actually have a full partnership with the local arts school.  There is a brand new Mac Lab going into the school and we will be involved in formally training students with regard to our Lucid Noize and journalistic efforts.  So that is very exciting when you look at local support.

6744             Do you want me to be honest?

6745             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  No.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

6746             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  No.

6747             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  We wouldn't want any children in the audience to see you being honest.  That would be the last thing we would want.

6748             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  In all honesty, to some degree we are a little too Christian for the non‑Christians and not Christian enough for the Christians.  That creates sometimes a financial pressure, that some people would like to support us but they are afraid what this other local Christian organization might think.

6749             So it is a real battle.  This is a hybrid station, but it is a very, very valid socially responsible media in my opinion.  It has some unique situations and some unique problems, but we are bearing with those.  There is tremendous community support from churches and some people, so I think we are faring well.

6750             It's not that if anybody didn't have $100,000 that they wanted to lend me that we wouldn't receive, but we are doing okay.

6751             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Let's talk a bit about Lucid Noize and balanced programming.

6752             You state in your application it is your intention to offer opportunities to present various points of view.  You say you are too religious for some and not religious enough for others.

6753             Do they all have the opportunity to present their point of view of Lucid Noize?

6754             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Exactly.  And we make sure that there is that kind of balance.  As I say, even making sure that it is not Christian biased in our reporters.  We have people who are not Christians on the steering committee of that to ensure that that is a proper reflection of the community.  We think that is true Christianity.

6755             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You have also stated that you will add a three‑minute feature that will air on Sundays which will allow opportunity for various backgrounds to air their views and education listeners on the various religious beliefs and perspectives.

6756             How widely is that available?  Is that available to all religions of the world?

6757             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Yes, it would have to be available to all if we were going to allow it to be one.

6758             It hasn't been developed yet, but I am currently the Chair of the Chaplaincy Committee in the local university, a secular university, and I have contact with all those different religious organizations and that is something we were looking at planning in the fall in Peterborough.  We would certainly open that to everyone and let the distinctives of that world religion be presented.

6759             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So this hasn't been introduced into the Peterborough market yet?

6760             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  It hasn't been introduced.  We use our balance through the internet, through our hotline.  That's how we do our balance right now, and through our non‑biased reporters on the street.  That's something we looked at that we would bring in ‑‑

6761             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So your early thoughts and planning and consultations of developing this proposed three minute feature, could you tell us a bit more about it?  Like how do you feel it will provide balance?  Maybe give us some examples of what listeners in Fort McMurray might be able to hear?

6762             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  I think as we were going to focus not just Christian social services, that as part of our mandate and introduction to those community groups we will offer them the opportunity to share the distinctives of their faith.

6763             I mean, in our KAOS Fort McMurray video, which you haven't seen today, we used a Bahai woman to act and share and dialogue about who she is and what she does.  Every level of the religious community is involved in this station, so we anticipate seeking them out, don't we, Bruce.

6764             MR. TAYLOR:  Yes, we have extremely strong partnerships developed in the community amongst social agencies.  We run a homeless drop‑in centre as a church that I am with.  We run a soup kitchen, we are involved with the homelessness initiatives, with the racism initiatives in the community, and those relationships go far and wide very deep.

6765             Our soup kitchen ministry that is run for instance in our church is a great example of that.  We have a variety of churches in the community that are representative of that, including some groups that would be considered non‑Christian.  They come on together under one roof and make that happen.

6766             I think it's the same kind of concept that we can use to ensure that we have balance in some of these features.

6767             MR. D. KIRSCHNER:  If I may, Mr. Williams...?

6768             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes.

6769             MR. D. KIRSCHNER:  Having settled into Fort McMurray in '78, the church, it has been a strong ecumenical community in Fort McMurray throughout the just about three decades I have been there.  As a founding member of the Food Bank and the Fort McMurray homeless shelter, it was a mix of all the denominations that came together and worked at the common ground issues and the needs of the community.  They continue to work strongly in that sense towards making good common goals and good basis for the community at large, and we would continue to do that and support that type of input.

6770             We seek out the common ground rather than the differences of all denominations.

6771             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I'm glad we are talking in this area now because it is actually the next area I planned on going into.

6772             We have heard much made of magnificent revenue opportunity and business opportunity, that Fort McMurray could present numbers as high as $135 billion over the next few years being spent in that area.  Clearly there must be some tremendous social issues caused by this boom environment and I would like to hear a bit of a description as to some of the maybe not so nice things that are happening in Fort McMurray and in how you propose your station could help.

6773             MR. D. KIRSCHNER:  That's a good question.  That I believe is what will come into the local programming aspect that will be discerned by the local steering committee.

6774             Things that we are faced ‑‑ I am a father of six children there.  I think we have collectively about 75 years in the school system, five daughters and one son, and they have been heavily involved in music and arts and sports since we started to have them in '79.  We touch on a lot of children coming and going from our home and we get a good cross‑reference of what the kids are up against and the peer pressures and such as that.

6775             So our local programming can move towards addressing some of the things such as latchkey children.

6776             The hours that the 14 year olds are working right now, the 12 years old that are being solicited to work in Fort McMurray because of the need for employees.

6777             Road rage is a big thing.  We have a fair bit of different driving cultures coming to Fort McMurray.  As we have heard, we have grown 20,000 people in three years.

6778             There is a lot of ‑‑ as rich as we are as a community in monetary sense, we are very poor.  That brings a lot of deficit wealth.  It divides families, it divides relationships in the sense that we all have an opportunity to pursue what the monetary dollar will bring.

6779             You have heard that the average salary is $100,000 and I will tell you the youth of the community or the average age of the community has that kind of money.  They are on the go continuously and it takes them ‑‑ we work hard at trying to have one meal a day at home, but I don't think the majority of the youth or people have that in the region.  So I mean there are problems ‑‑ there is divisions that come with affluence and those are some of the things we face in the community.

6780             There is a shortness of patience.  You line up wherever you got.

6781             There is pressure put on individuals in the retail sector because of the volume of people that come through.  We have a transient population that is just about 10 percent of our existing population, that although they are good people and such they are not at home and they act differently and then tend to put pressures on the community that they wouldn't necessarily in their own home town.

6782             So we work hard as a community to maintain a stability that helps grow the industry but still helps maintain the community that is going to give us stability to raise children and to bring up the next generation, if that answers some of your questions.

6783             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That's part of it.

6784             MR. D. KIRSCHNER:  All right.

6785             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So the latchkey children, child labour, road rage, line ups, broken homes dreams.

6786             Is there much poverty, crime, drug issues also within that community?

6787             MR. D. KIRSCHNER:  I will ask Bruce to touch on that because he is moreso in the downtown core.

6788             MR. TAYLOR:  Yes, certainly those are growing issues that we have in the community.  We see tons of people ‑‑ I really, truly mean that, there is a lot of people that come to our community because the streets are paved with gold they heard.  You know, someone told them, "Go to McMurray, you will get a job".  They might be 18, they could be 35, they could be 55.

6789             They show up in town, they have no money, they may or may not have their high school education, they may not have any other notable skills to get employment, and they know no one and have no place to live.  There is an extreme amount of pressure that is put on our community in that.  Communities the size of Fort McMurray, or similar in size ‑‑ maybe like a Red Deer or Grande Prairie, tend to have anywhere from three to five times the number of social agencies that Fort McMurray does because they have grown slowly over time.  So we have a huge demand in our community for more socially oriented groups to try to find out how we solve some of these problems in our community.

6790             What happens is, as soon as a guy is turned down on the street, he is alone, doesn't know anybody so he gets lonely, well, next thing you know he is making friends with the other people who are on the street.  So what are they doing?  Well, they are all getting drunk, they are all doing crack, you name it, they are doing it.

6791             So now we have a problem where there is a growing number of addictions.  We have people who are homeless in our community that have never been homeless anywhere else.

6792             So there is a real vast array of social issues that grow in there.  We have young families that come to the soup kitchen because they cannot afford necessarily to always pay for food, because rent is so high.  Yes, you can go and make $15 an hour at Tim Horton's or at a variety of places in the community, but can you live?

6793             So there are a real bunch of challenges out there in the community.  I think there is a high loneliness factor in the community.  There is a lot of depression.

6794             The wintertime is really hard on a lot of people with the reduced amount of daylight.  I grew up in town and I can tell you that it was a problem them.  It has grown exponentially over the years.  So I see a huge need in the community for people to feel like they are loved and cared for and that they are important and that the issues that they face need to be addressed and discussed in a very open manner.

6795             So I see this particular format of radio being about to flexibly kind of fit into that community and help meet some of those needs and partner with other social agencies to try and assist in conquering those issues.

6796             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That's where your 95 percent local programming initiatives will come in.

6797             Give me some examples, some specific programs that deal with some of these tremendous challenges that you have just described?

6798             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  One of the things was the Straight Talk with the local police department.  We have been involved in two separate meetings with the RCMP, emphasizing what we are doing in Peterborough, and although they couldn't state at that point that yes, that is something they would go for, we have to go through a formal proposal, but they were certainly excited by that opportunity to gain relationship with the students.

6799             You will see in the package, the newsletter, the local involvement with the Peterborough police department, we created a high school liaison officer.  It's a pimped up car that it's got great music in it and it's got lights and it's got the road kit and everything.  Again, it's just to make the police more palatable and more approachable.

6800             You know, they go in with a big PT Cruiser because that is what the local Chrysler dealer will give you and they look at it and laugh.  I mean, how appropriate is that?  Well, it was great because we got it for free, but it just totally does not engage the culture.

6801             So those are initiatives we are after.

6802             The Lucid Noize is one of the most significant things.  I mean, we had a boy just die in Peterborough, it was just a complete accident, ran out in front of a car, and the community was just devastated, a lot of the youth community.  So what we said, "Well, let's just do a Lucid Noize program, bring them in around the table and dialogue with them".  It wasn't about as much that went on‑air, although we aired the feature and it was wonderful, but it was about engaging 130 kids in this process and grieving.

6803             You do have a CD in your package, we referred to that, about that process before.

6804             Again, to be truly community, like I have heard the other applicants talk about, you need to jump on those opportunities and it sometimes isn't about, "Well, can we sell that?  Can we get sponsorship for that?"  Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and that's what you are here for.

6805             That is what relationship is about.  That is what community is about.  Get out there and do something about it whichever way you can.

6806             I know that's highly ideal, but they are some of the things that we are trying to do and that is what would be involved with the local community, social services allows you ‑‑ enables us to do.

6807             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  More programs?

6808             MR. D. KIRSCHNER:  Again, the Events Guide and certainly the one‑minute social service feature.

6809             You know, we play a couple of times a day a feature just exposing the local agencies to the students.  I mean, if you walk through a high school guidance office you see racks and racks and racks of literature that are just really beautiful, and there are 30 there in September and there are 30 there in June.  Nobody has ever touched it.  It's about packaging, it's about promotion, it's about marketing.

6810             If you are going to say something to a young person, say it in music.  If you are going to connect, say it in music, say it in media, and you have a 10 times better chance of it getting connected.  Put it on a piece of paper because that is the way you have done it the last 30 years and it will still be there and it will never be engaged.

6811             So these programs, through local people, local interviews, will just expose the help lines, expose the help agencies to the young people.  Again, it's in a way that they can receive it and see it as valid in their lives.

6812             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How busy is your Food Bank?

6813             MR. D. KIRSCHNER:  It is very busy.  I did some numbers the other night and I think they are probably doing 20 hampers a day to supplement income to different people who are working and not working.

6814             They have a good process.  They have been going since 1983.  But it is well used.

6815             And when I say it has a good process, is they watch that the repeat user is directed somewhere else for assistance rather than enabling them just to use it as a resources, rather than ‑‑ it helps them to try to raise their bottom and bring out their best potential and see where they can help themselves better.

6816             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So would your station work with organizations like the Food Banks to raise their profile and their resources?

6817             MR. D. KIRSCHNER:  We certainly would.  There are a number of weeks that Fort McMurray has, it has Drug Awareness Week, Alberta Forest Week, Education Week, Public Health Week; Crime Prevention Week, Social Services Week, et cetera, and we would come in and assist them in supporting them and forwarding their cause during those weeks and any other time that they have specific food drives, which is at Christmas and such, we would do on‑air broadcasting and such.

6818             I don't know if Rick mentioned also, but the broadcasting to the schools as they come out for lunch, come out after school and such like that, we would look at doing some programming there that might assist them and getting on home to do their homework or a healthier lifestyle, just in the broadcasting process.

6819             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  I'm sorry, if I could just interject one more thing?

6820             I didn't really speak about that, the high school reporters.  That is something we have developed in Peterborough and there is a report from every high school twice a day ‑‑ sorry, one high school featured every day what is happening in the local high school, just whatever.

6821             Also a reporter from the local university, also from Sir Sandford Fleming College.  This works on a two‑week cycle and so there is a contemporary report at 11:40 every day and 4:40 every day what is happening on the local campuses.

6822             Another feature is Dr. Dave Overholt.  He is the youth cultural specialist in Hamilton I referred to.  He just does principal talks on Coping as a Young Person, an excellent feature that we have produced.

6823             There is another feature Walt Mueller which is Understanding Today's Youth Culture.  It is an American program but the stats are real and relevant and it is helping adults understand the post‑modern culture we live in and how to understand this creature that is their adolescent or their child.  You know, what are the going through?  It is a very exciting feature that a lot of people really enjoy on our station.

6824             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, gentlemen.

6825             I think now we will talk a bit now on the guidelines on ethics as a condition of licence.

6826             As we just discussed, you will be broadcasting some religious programs.  The guidelines on ethics in a religious policy deal with the solicitation of funds and programming practices.

6827             What would be your reaction to the Commission imposing these as a condition of licence?

6828             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Practically would that me that we can't go on‑air and ask for money, or what does practically that mean?

6829             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  It means you can't threaten damnation if you don't give money.

6830             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Oh.

6831             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  We can do that, but you can't.

6832             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Actually, I heard that.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

6833             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  We would fully agree with that.  In fact, the policy in Peterborough has been that we don't solicit funds for ourselves.  Most Christian operations in Canada, that is a major part of their financial revenue stream is doing share‑a‑thons.  The verdict is still out for us whether we need to do that or not, but we have had a policy that we won't go on and solicit money for ourselves, we will solicit money for the social service agencies or the organizations.

6834             As I said, the verdict is still out on that, but we won't threaten anybody.

6835             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  All right.  Thank you.  We will talk a bit about your proposed initiatives now.

6836             Besides directing $1,000 per year to workshops to assist with talent development and $800 per year to performing arts camp, I note you have proposed to direct $500 a month to KAOS Concert to develop a monthly show which would total $6,000 a year.

6837             However, in your January 9th letter you indicate that you will direct $5,800 a year.

6838             Could you please clarify the amount that will be directed to the Concert Series development?

6839             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  We did set a rough budget of $500 a month.

6840             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So $6,000 would be the figure then?

6841             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Yes, sir.

6842             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  All right.  As indicated above, we note that KAOS Concert Series development will be responsible for hosting and developing the monthly talent shows and that amount would cover operation costs associated with hosting the concert, including honorarium to musicians performing.

6843             Could you tell us what your involvement in the Concert Series is?  Do you have an ownership position?

6844             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  No, we don't own it.  As a matter of fact, I am an unpaid volunteer for King's Kids Promotions.  There is no money.  The radio station simply puts on this concert to, again, surface young, local talent.  Some of them are not very good musicians as of yet, but they have a hint of passion ‑‑ a lot of passion and a hint of talent.  We give them an opportunity to play.

6845             We have done this actually for about 14 years.  It was called "The Gas Show".  Opposite to "The Gong Show" when somebody came out and you gonged them and made them look like a fool, "The Gas Show" is a guaranteed applause.  That means, it doesn't matter how bad you are, we applaud your effort to get up there on the stage and try to do something.

6846             So we have continued that and we believe there is great merit.  I mean, everybody wants to jump on the next great artist.  Everybody wants to put $10,000 into the next great artist and give him a CD and say, "Look at who we broke."  But I believe like panning for little specks of gold, if you go through hundreds of young, local people, try to help them into flame that little trickle of hope they have in them, or the little bit of talent, that that does far more for Canadian talent development than just jumping on the next big thing.

6847             So it doesn't look like a lot, but we consistently create an opportunity for young people to play and applaud them and encourage them and steer them maybe to the next level of their growth, that that is going to be much more significant in the landscape of Canadian talent in the future than is the $100,000 into the next record for one group.

6848             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  We practice that to some degree in the broadcasting industry ourselves.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

6849             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How will your performing musicians be chosen?

6850             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  In that feature just young people have to just apply.  They just have to apply, usually four or five ‑‑

6851             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  For them to apply, how would they hear about it?  How would you promote it?

6852             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Oh, it would be on‑air, like "Come to the KAOS Concert Series".  It's just come and apply.  Call Katey at kaosvideo.com.

6853             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Would you use other media, posters or internet?

6854             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Posters, yes.  High schools, our street teams, poster‑it, flyer‑it, viral marketing.

6855             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Could you give us a breakdown or an overview of your other proposed initiatives, the workshops and performing arts camp?

6856             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  This past year in Peterborough it was actually American Kingdom Bound said "We will fund money for Canadian talent."  So they said "Would you run a performing arts camp?"

6857             So we did that for 75 students.  They came in for the weekend, we brought in local artists and professional artists that were quality.  We just developed entry level, advanced level guitar, vocal, just different aspects of the musical industry.

6858             Then there were a couple of bands that actually came and we put them onto a promoter and an artist developer, so the varying levels depending on who comes, that is the kind of thing.  So we create either a one‑day event, or in Peterborough's case it was a weekend event.

6859             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  All right.  Thank you.

6860             Let's talk a bit about possible synergies with your Peterborough station.

6861             In your January 9th letter you indicate that there will be some synergies with KAOS 99.5 in Peterborough.

6862             Could you elaborate on the extent of this and are you also expecting to realize any other synergies between your proposed station and the Peterborough station?

6863             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  I think some of the programming like the Dr. Dave features, the Lucid Noize features could be similar, but we would have to get local responses, obviously, to the issues.

6864             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  The issues may be different in the two communities.

6865             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Right.  Exactly.  So it would be a similar format, but local characters.

6866             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Would any of your existing staff in Peterborough be involved in, say, the training or recruitment or establishment of the proposed station?

6867             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  As a matter of fact, yes.  We have some ‑‑ our staff will be given an opportunity if they would like to come to Fort McMurray.

6868             We have a Fort McMurray young person, our afternoon drive host right now, and so there would be some synergies and certainly he is a local boy.  He has been on here, trained in CJOK and KYX in Fort McMurray, and he is a great young talent and he could possibly come back and train some locals as well.

6869             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That brings us to the higher cost side of Fort McMurray.

6870             Can you explain to us how your business plan takes into account the relatively high cost of living, zero apartment vacancy rate for example?  For example, are you expecting to have to pay higher salaries or living allowances or ‑‑ I don't know.  I was in business in Yellowknife when it was a high‑cost area ‑‑ I guess it still is ‑‑ and we actually had to buy houses and trailers for our employees and rent them out at a reduced rate.  That was our entry, I guess, into the real estate business inadvertently.  We didn't want to be in the real estate business.

6871             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Yes, a couple of considerations there.

6872             We do admit that some of the people going into Christian broadcasting have a passion for the vision and so they are desirous to work for a little bit less.  It is also a policy of KAOS in Peterborough to not make the Christian broadcasters poor.  I don't think that is honouring to God or to anybody to make them work for nothing.  However, we do realize that there is a cost of doing business.

6873             So we are counting on a passion for the industry even more than a regular passion for radio.  We have also made exceptions for

6874             MR. D. KIRSCHNER:  Commissioner Williams, every business new and existing is facing the same challenges in Fort McMurray relative to hiring, staff retention and the costs of living that we are faced with there.  I see on a regular basis and know of national western businesses, as well as small businesses, that are struggling and are closing their doors because of the area's ‑‑ the growth impact there.

6875             I think that individuals ‑‑ I have found that in radio and the arts, as well as in aviation, that people who have a passion for that job, they will start wherever.

6876             But, as Rick said, our intention ‑‑ and with my staff, I have 35 staff, I always try to get them a little bit above the marketplace wage, as well as give them a better ‑‑ a great quality of work site that addresses their personal needs and assists them in their personal needs as well.

6877             As we have mentioned, we have a cross‑section of letters and support from the community from business, government, church, social and individual agencies, so we have been there ‑‑ or we have thousands of people connected.  We are well‑connected.

6878             My own business and family has connected seven new employees from Ontario to different businesses this year.  That is what the businesses are faced with.  There are people coming in and you have to facilitate their presence in the community.

6879             There are vacancies in Fort McMurray and there are people who are willing to help people to get established, because we need community.

6880             Of course we invite families first because the idea of the transient worker isn't as good for the community as it is to have families come and root themselves.  In the early '80s people came for one year, but they are still there today.  That's what we hope for in these new people coming.  And they are and can be facilitated through the connections that we have in the community.

6881             Again, we will try to keep their wages a little bit higher and move them forward.  My staff is in the $70,000 or $60,000 to $100,000 range.  They are married, they are having children, they are buying homes.  You can do it.  They have done it in Yellowknife, they did it in Toronto, they have done it in Vancouver over the decades.  You make it work.  It's all proportionate to the wage.  It's just they have 35 year mortgages now, not 25 year.

6882             So we believe that we are as connected as anyone and we see success in new people coming to every industry in the community.

6883             One idea we have, too, that seems to be working, I have been developing it over the last five years, is we train up our own staff.  We have a pool of truck drivers, for instance, junior, intermediate and senior level and we have always ‑‑ we have an educator on staff, a trainer on staff, and we just have three or four drivers on a regular basis to replace the ones that can go at any day.  We draw from a source more junior than our company.

6884             And right now our company as well is able to compete with ‑‑ basically all the small businesses in Fort McMurray is competing with the major oil industry and they are coming forward with increases and such to do so.  I think in the advertising sense the budgets are showing that they can do that as well.

6885             So we create our own pool, we pay well and we assist people to get settled.  It's happening and it will continue to happen in Fort McMurray.  I think with our connection in the community we can do that in radio as well.

6886             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.  We are nearing ‑‑

6887             MR. TAYLOR:  Just to add to that ‑‑

6888             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Oh, please.

6889             MR. TAYLOR:  ‑‑ if you would let me, I think we also have commitment from the religious community to this initiative, whereby if we are required to bring in staff from outside that the most difficult phase for new staff to the community is actually that first few months of getting settled and figuring out, you know, are you going to find a roommate and share an apartment or what are you going to do.  Can you get into affordable housing programs which are available in the community.

6890             We have a commitment from people within the religious community that they would be open to opening up a room or two in their existing housing for some of those people because they believe in the vision of what we are doing.

6891             So I think that gives us an advantage as well where these people, their rooms are empty right now because they are not in the idea of just renting out rooms for renting out rooms.  They don't want that, but they would be willing to do it to help this initiative.  So I think that is a positive.

6892             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  All right.

6893             With one more question we have reached the end of my portion of this.  My colleagues may of course have more.

6894             I imagine you have heard part of this hearing, if not all of it, how many new radio stations do you believe Fort McMurray could support at this time?

6895             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Well, I think everyone has really underestimated the potential in our financial projections what is really available there.

6896             I think the short answer is ‑‑ again, I am not an experienced broadcaster like the wealth of knowledge around this table, but it would certain seem by the rationale I have heard that it could support two high‑power and one low‑power station.

6897             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So that would be, I presume, your station or a similar one, and any of the other high‑power applications?

6898             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Depending of course on the formats and everything that they line up in their ‑‑

6899             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes.  They have indicated Classic Hits and ‑‑

6900             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Yes.

6901             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  All right.

6902             That concludes my portion of the questioning, Mr. Chair.  Thank you very much.

6903             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cram...?

6904             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

6905             Did you send a memo out to each other saying "Wear green today?"

6906             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  No.

6907             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  No?

6908             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  It's the only shirts we had left.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

6909             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I'm looking at your revenue projections, on the revised one on page 4, and there is an "annual Sheraton".

6910             What is that?  It is an annual donation?

6911             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  It should say "Share‑a‑thon", I apologize.

6912             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I'm wondering if the Sheraton Hotel is giving you $10,000 a year.

6913             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  Well, I will approach them.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

6914             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  But it should say "Share‑a‑thon" and really it's a caption for meaning that we will anticipate we are going to get sponsorship from local churches.

6915             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.

6916             Program sales.  Today you said it's not firmed up and you said there were problems or there are perceptions that low‑power is not an effective vehicle.  But do you have brokered sales on your Peterborough station?

                 MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  We do have a couple.  Actually, no, there was just advertising from local features that we are ‑‑ it was just advertising.  They purchased air time.  So we have no brokered sales at this point.

6917             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  So what would go if you couldn't get any brokered sales?  What would go in your programming?  What would your contingency be then?

6918             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  That we get the sales people to make up the difference of $30,000.

6919             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  And what do your sales people do in Peterborough when you are not part of BBM?  Have you done surveys, things like that, to find out your share?

6920             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  We have an unofficial kind of hint of what our share is.  Of course we can't use that in advertising.

6921             But we just really emphasize letters of successful advertisers, we try to put the while hat on and say, "Look at all the great things we are doing for the community", and that's pretty much all we can do.

6922             We are anticipating and projecting and working hard to be part of the BBM ratings this fall and we are just praying we will have a pleasant surprise there.  That's what we are hoping for.

6923             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Mr. Rick Kirschner, you have such enthusiasm and such creativity, but this is going to be in a place where you want.  How are you going to sort of transfer your experience, your creativity, how are you going to transfer it to Fort McMurray so that if we gave you a licence you could have the same kind of station that sounds very interesting?

6924             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  I think that I will spend a little bit of time in Fort McMurray.  I have spent lots of time prior to this process, certainly four separate times within the last year interacting with people on the street and things like that.

6925             I think there has been a lot of transference of enthusiasm already, but also a seeking out of like‑minded individuals.  There are many people in Fort McMurray with ‑‑ as a matter of fact, I think it is one of the most entrepreneurial and creative communities I have ever seen, and so I think there has already been some synergies and relationships developed by people with as much or more passion than I have for these people.

6926             So I just think I am just really part of a team of a bunch of people that will make this happen.

6927             We also have some transference happening in Peterborough right now with a Fort McMurray local who is working with our team who is part of what we are doing there, and we just don't know where he will go, but I know he likes home and there are lots of opportunities.

6928             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  It's not to say that you, Mr. Dave Kirschner are not creative and energetic and enthusiastic, or you Reverend Taylor, it's just that Rick, if I can call you that, you are just bubbling over with the enthusiasm and some creativity.

6929             Anyway, thank you very much.

6930             Thank you, Mr. Chair.

6931             MR. D. KIRSCHNER:  Commissioner Cram, if I may comment on that, your question to Rick, I am a resource expediter to every major resource in the region.  The name of my company is McMurray Serv‑U Expediting.  What my job has been for the last 30 years is to find the resource in Fort McMurray first to assist these companies to grow.  They are the major companies of the region.  I still have the contracts with them and such.

6932             And I have some question as to the possibility of finding that resource in Fort McMurray too, and I pondered it heavily over the last three months and again this week, but I believe that with the connection in the community and the resource in itself to assist the community, that those people will be flushed out.

6933             Again, having the letters of support from the broad section of the community, and I have to say, those people have to come forward in very short time.  They have come forward with their letters of support in our initial meetings, but as a resource expediter I still believe that it is such a resource and that it would come forward and it is worthy of pursuing.

6934             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

6935             Thank you, Mr. Chair.

6936             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Kirschner, or maybe your two other panel members may be in a much better position to answer the question that yourself because it is really towards Fort McMurray.

6937             How many other significant faiths are there in Fort McMurray?

6938             MR. TAYLOR:  That's always an interesting question.  I guess it depends on your perspective.

6939             The way I would look at it is, what we would call major faith groups would be certainly the Evangelical Christian group, the Catholic Christian group, there would be the Mormons, the Jehovah Witnesses, there is a significant Muslim community.  Those would sort of be the major groups.

6940             I think there are, you know, certainly a variety of First Nations variance in there, including Christian First Nations community, as well as certainly some smaller groups mixed in.

6941             It is a very diverse community that is represented by people from well over 50 different countries in the world, so I'm sure there are tons of little groups that we aren't quite fully aware of yet as well.

6942             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You are not including the Catholic in your definition of Christian?

6943             MR. TAYLOR:  Certainly.  Like I said, the Catholic Christian community.

6944             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I was born Catholic and they have told me all my life I was a Christian.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

6945             MR. TAYLOR:  Certainly, no.  I did say the Catholic Christian community, just making a difference there that depending on people's perspective on how they define Christianity.  I know some Catholics that tend to tell me I should get onboard with real Christianity.  You know, I know some non‑Catholics that would tell the Catholics the same thing.

6946             We are quite ecumenical, especially in our group here even, on that matter and certainly they are a large portion of our community and we would see them as part of this initiative.

6947             THE CHAIRPERSON:  How aware are the other denominations of your project here?  Have you been talking, say with the Muslims, if there is a Jewish community as well in Fort McMurray?

6948             MR. TAYLOR:  Yes.

6949             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are they aware of your project?

6950             MR. TAYLOR:  I think significant portions are aware.  One of the difficulties that we do have ‑‑ and initiatives like this I think help us, is communicating with some of the other groups.  Not all of them come to some events.  They tend to separate themselves.

6951             So, yes, there has been a little more difficulty communicating heavily with, say, the Muslims.  There has been some communication with them, but I wouldn't call it significant at this point, because they do try and separate themselves from us.

6952             We would like to use mediums like this that we can bring together a common positive message ‑‑ that applies just as much from them as it does from us ‑‑ to bring together a little more common ground for the community to work together on something.

6953             THE CHAIRPERSON:  If we grant we a licence and they knock at your door, would you be open to do programming with them?

6954             MR. D. KIRSCHNER:  By all means.  The Mormon community in particular are very family oriented and very strong community members.  I know the two Bishops personally and we talk on a regular basis about the challenges our youth and the youth of the community are faced with.

6955             We certainly would be open.  Two heads are better than one and the more, the merrier.  Like the better perspective we are going to get and the better product we will be able to produce.

6956             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Earlier today we heard Harvard Broadcasting.  While they were describing their programming format they were talking main AC during the day and then more Pop or Rock‑driven during the evening.

6957             When I heard you talking, you were talking almost in the same terms about being AC during the day and more Pop, Rock during the evening.

6958             How different do you think your programming schedule is from a standard commercial radio project like the one Harvard put before us?

6959             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Mr. Chairman, I have never done this in seven and a half years on this Panel and I apologize, but I had too much coffee this morning and I need a two‑minute break.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

6960             MR. R. KIRSCHNER:  And I will join you.

6961             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Would you mind if I just stepped outside for two minutes.

6962             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

6963             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  You can think about your answer.

6964             UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  Nature calls.

6965             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That's your theme for the next one.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

‑‑‑ Pause

6966             THE CHAIRPERSON: So are you ready to answer my question?

6967             MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Yes, sir.  I believe we are the last adult contemporary in the day, I apologize if I didn't make that clear.  I mean, it is more Hot AC which is on its way to CHR pop.  And then the evening will actually be a little bit more rock than it would be, you know, then just pop in the evening.  So a little bit more ‑‑ quite a bit more rock in the evening.

6968             THE CHAIRPERSON: So one of the questions that I asked to all of the applicants that have appeared here was will we be skewing more towards the male or the female?  I suspect with the type of music that you are planning it is going to be more towards the male gender rather than the female gender.

6969             MR. R. KIRSCHNER: No, we anticipate approximately a 60/40 split, female being 60 per cent of what we are going for.

6970             THE CHAIRPERSON: And what will be the median age of..?

6971             MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Twenty‑nine years old.

6972             THE CHAIRPERSON: Twenty‑nine years old.  As you know, there is another applicant for a religious radio station, Touch Canada.  They appeared ‑‑ I don't know if you were here when they appeared ‑‑

6973             MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Yes.

6974             THE CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ for Grande Prairie.  I suspect the radio programming plan that they will propose for Fort McMurray will be similar.  And they are talking about contemporary gospel music and their base music usage is also subcategory 35.

6975             MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Okay.

6976             THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you qualify the music genre that you will be playing as also meeting that definition of contemporary gospel music?

6977             MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Yes, sir.  I don't want to define for Mr. Hunsperger.  I have listened to that and I did have the same question.  I believe, and he will clarify for us, that by gospel he means overtly evangelical in nature.  In other words, God has a good plan for your life, come to him.

6978             THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that is what he ‑‑ yes.

6979             MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Whereas, some of our music ‑‑ more of our music will just be traditional Judiah (ph) Christian themes, being hey when you fall down get back up.  That is a biblical theme, it is a Christian theme, but it is also a Muslim theme, you know.  So I think his is a little more overtly evangelical and I think that is wonderful.  As I said, there will be some of our overtly Christian evangelical songs as well.

6980             The songs will be as they are sonically a great song and a song that is doing well in North America.  We will play that song whether it has an overtly evangelical or gospel theme or not.  We won't apologize for that.  It is a Christian licence we are applying for.

6981             MR. TAYLOR: And if I could just add to that discussion briefly.  Certainly, when we talk about a 60/40 split female to male, you know, part of that mix is the fact that we believe that the daytime programming would swing a little more towards the female engender, whereas maybe a lot of the evening programming would actually be a little more even.

6982             And the other thing is, even with that median age of 29, and it is a reminder I like to give people, if we talk an average age in that area in the community that means for every 40‑year old there is a 20‑year old, for every 50‑year old there is two 20s.  There is a huge young population and so certainly, especially in the evenings and especially weekend evenings, we would swing to that younger population that really makes a predominant part of the culture up that we would be trying to work with.

6983             THE CHAIRPERSON: I seek your comments on my last question, is if the Commission was to grant you a licence and also grand a licence to Touch Canada, could you both go through and succeed?

6984             MR. R. KIRSCHNER: I believe we could both succeed and I would believe there would have to be collaboration in doing that, because there is similar play lists.  As I said before, there is not that many contemporary Christian artists.  So we would just have to really work on in collaborating.  The same kind of initiative happens in Peterborough market.  We have Life 100.3 broadcasting a repeater station in our community.  I program around him, you know, and he has a top seven at 7:00, you know, he has a top eight at 8:00 and I want to do a call‑in top seven I do it at 7:00.

6985             So I think there has to be some synergies and I think the Christian broadcasters are coming together and collaborating more than ever and that is certainly my prayer.  So I think we could work together.

6986             THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Well, as you know, we are giving you an opportunity to sum up and tell us in a few minutes why you should be granted the licence to serve Fort McMurray, so it is to you.

6987             MR. R. KIRSCHNER: Thank you.  Mr. Chairman, King's Kids steering committee has been working in Fort McMurray for a long time, even prior to a call for applications.  This has been considered and, of course, the call for applications has made us speed up our process.

6988             King's Kids has demonstrated from letters of intervention and other letters referred to in the oral presentations that we have exceptional local community support for this undertaking: local MP, MLA, mayor, school board, religious social services, RCMP and businesses are well represented in their support.

6989             MR. TAYLOR: King's Kids has a sound, realistic business plan having demonstrated, even in this hearing, an understanding of the ever changing market in Fort McMurray and a willingness to adjust and be flexible in order to be successful.

6990             MR. D. KIRSCHNER: King's Kids has a long‑standing history of Canadian Talent Development and letters of support testifying to their sincere commitment to artist development, a commitment which has borne fruit in the lives of more than one Canadian artist.

6991             MR. R. KIRSCHNER: King's Kids have current partnerships established to introduce new Christian talent in a well‑established local festival, interPLAY.

6992             MR. TAYLOR: King's Kids has demonstrated a need for this format to expose, support and strengthen local social service agencies who are often overwhelmed in this fast‑paced, high‑stressed community.

6993             MR. D. KIRSCHNER: King's Kids has outlined a unique philosophy and approach to the market with a Christian radio format and provided letters from the religious, business and Canadian talent communities validating many of the benefits for business, religious groups and artists, some of whom are not considered religious at all.  This approach will draw more listeners to our station, both Christian and non‑Christian.

6994             MR. R. KIRSCHNER: King's Kids believe we have a transcendent cause to expose hope to Fort McMurray through relevant music, talk and action.  We pray we have justified the need and demonstrated the support for this unique radio initiative.  If the Commission deems our proposal insufficient to warrant a speciality licence for Fort McMurray, we recommend you consider any other applicant proposing a Christian music service.

6995             Our research for the market has been personal, not arms‑length surveys, by independent brokers over months of personal interaction with the people of the community of Fort McMurray, two meetings with the police departments, over 45 high school teachers, hundreds of students, business members, church communities, street people, parents, local bands and promoters, college staff and even Tim Horton's employees.  Radio is about community, about people, about people touching people in relationships.  King's Kids research has been on the ground level in relationship with the people we intend to serve.

6996             Thank you very much.

6997             THE CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, thank you.

6998             We will take a real 10‑minute break, so the others have a chance to..  And we will do the next application immediately after.  So we will resume at 11:45.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 11:35 a.m.

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 11:45 a.m.

6999             THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Secretary.

7000             THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

7001             We will now proceed with Item 17 on the agenda, which is an application by Newcap Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Fort McMurray.

7002             The new station would operate on frequency 110.5 MHz (channel 263B) with an effective radiated power of 20,000 watts (non‑directional antenna/antenna height of 54 metres).

7003             Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Robert Steele who will introduce his colleagues.  And I would like to say for the record that the applicant has filed some revised financial information which will be place on the application file and available in the examination room.  Mr. Steele.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

7004             MR. STEELE: Well, good morning, still I guess.  For the record, I am Rob Steele, President and Chief Executive Officer of Newcap Radio and I would like to introduce my colleagues.  On your far right are David Murray, VP of operations; Rob Mise, Director of Programming for Newcap; Glenda Spenrath, Assistant GM of Newcap's Alberta Radio Group; Mark Maheu, Executive Vice‑President and Chief Operating Officer of Newcap Radio; and Al Anderson, GM of the Alberta Radio Group.

7005             Mr. Chair, members of the Commission, Commission staff, we at Newcap are very pleased to present this application for a new FM radio station to serve Fort McMurray.  And as the Commission has heard, the Fort McMurray with Buffalo region is a vibrant, growing community whose current population is 75,000, could well top 100,000 within the decade.

7006             Our research suggests a clear interest on the part of Fort McMurray residents for greater format choice.  Almost one in five say they are not at all satisfied with Fort McMurray radio, while only 14 per cent are 100 per cent satisfied.

7007             Applicants in this hearing have proposed variations on three different potential formats to serve these listeners and the health of the local economy should allow the Commission to licence at least one new commercial service.

7008             We believe that our application is worthy of your approval both because of its specifics and more generally because of what Newcap as a company can bring to Fort McMurray.  We are one of the few Canadian operators that remain equally committed to growth and in smaller and larger markets in Canada.  Small and mid‑market radio is and will remain our core business, we believe we are pretty good at it and our listeners and our shareholders seem to agree.

7009             MR. MAHEU: Attracting retaining listeners to radio is not exactly getting easier.  Picking the right format and complimenting it with the right kind and level of local news and information programming is essential, especially when the competition comes less and less from other stations in the market and more and more from radio's competitors, iPods, internet and, particularly in Fort McMurray, satellite radio.

7010             Newcap is proposing a classic hits station for Fort McMurray.  Our reason for choosing classic hits is simple, the research.  Our format research in Fort McMurray evaluated eight format options, 1980s, 1990s, active rock, CHR, classic hits, classic rock, country, Hot AC and Soft AC.  The research is projecting a 27 per cent share for classic hits.  Classic hits is going to generate the most interest of the formats we tested.  Half of the respondents to our survey expressed positive interest in classic hits.  A quarter expressed strong positive interest, ie. they would listen to classic hits all the time.

7011             At present, CKYX FM is the station that comes closest to serving this need, but less than 40 per cent of listeners overall, and those with positive interest in classic hits, associate CKYX with the format.  Half of both groups cannot identify any station with classic hits.

7012             As a result, classic hits is by far the largest format opportunity in Fort McMurray today.  The station's audience will be predominantly 35 ‑ 54.  Among 18 ‑ 64s overall the station should rank a strong third in the market, ensuring no undue impact on O.K. stations.

7013             The classic hit station that we propose for Fort McMurray will feature a wide variety of music and while the vast majority of the music will be from the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s, 10 per cent will be current and most of that will be Canadian.  Fort McMurray FM will combine the best of the past and present to create a compelling radio station.

7014             Now, to give you a better feel for the station, we have a short audio presentation.

‑‑‑ Audio presentation / Présentation audio

7015             MS SPENRATH: Both before and after we filed our application 15 months ago Al and I spent a lot of time in Fort McMurray speaking with residents, business owners and public officials.  The growth and changes in just 18 months is astounding.  What hasn't changed though is Fort McMurray residents' thirst for a strong new source of news and information on local radio, live and when it happens.

7016             With no local TV station and a small local daily newspaper Fort McMurray residents rely heavily on radio for local news and information.  So given only two local radio stations, both under one owner, the addition of strong, new, alternative local news and information sources is even more important.  Fort McMurray FM will significantly increase the diversity and availability of local news and information programming.  We will provide 53 newscasts throughout the week, including weekends, all of them sourced and presented by our staff in Fort McMurray.

7017             With the booming oil industry and issues associated with local growth there is little doubt that there is enough local news to warrant such coverage.  Fort McMurray FM plans to offer our listeners 75 per cent local content in all newscasts with the remaining 25 per cent being relevant news and information from Alberta, from Canada and from the rest of the world.  Each newscast will run approximately four minutes, inclusive of sports and weather, for a total of three and a half hours of news content weekly.

7018             Considering Fort McMurray's isolated geographic location, community presence will need to be an integral part of a successful radio station.  Eight daily 60‑second features called Fort McMurray Today will profile upcoming and recent community events.  We are confident these capsules will soon become an important source of information on the what, where and how to get more involved in the community.  This will add another hour of intensely local information dedicated to Fort McMurray.

7019             Frequent unscheduled updates breaking news, weather, traffic, road and forest fire conditions, together with music and other commentary, will bring our minimum total spoken word to 13 and a half hours.

7020             MR. ANDERSON: Our employees, and in particular those on the air, will be representative of the Fort McMurray mosaic and will focus their stories to reflect the reality of Canada's culture, ethnic, racial and Aboriginal diversity.  In addition, we will report on news that is very important to the community as a whole, being sensitive to the cultural nuances of the local population.  The station's news director will supervise a team of two reporters in Fort McMurray.

7021             In addition to the local news team focusing on Fort McMurray news, the station will benefit from Newcap's 40 existing news people on the ground and behind the mics in the rest of Alberta.

7022             Connected through today's technologies stories of national significance and those relevant to Western Canada can be instantly shared by our stations right across the country.  Consistent with Newcap's long tradition of providing intensely local service, this new station will make a difference to the community.

7023             MR. MAHEU: Our Canadian Talent Development plan is specifically designed to expose emerging artists and stars from the Fort McMurray area in Alberta.  We have proposed a package of Canadian Talent Development totalling $525,000 over the term of the licence, spending $75,000 in each of the first seven years of the licence term.

7024             Now, $37,500 each year for the first seven years of the licence will go to fund the initiatives of the Radio Starmaker Fund; $37,500 each year will go to fund local Canadian talent initiatives within the Fort McMurray school district.  Funds will be used for the purchase of instruments, the development of music curriculums and music festivals, including scholarships.

7025             Now, the economic impact on the existing stations.  Ensuring new licensees do not have an undue impact on incumbents is an important objective of the Commission's licensing process.  At Newcap we deliberately design our applications and launch new stations to ensure and share growth rather than just slicing up the existing pie.  In fact, we estimate that only 30 per cent of our year‑one revenues will be generated from existing radio advertising budgets primarily from local retailers simply unable to effectively reach Fort McMurray FM's potential target audience.

7026             Seventy per cent of the first‑year revenue is going to come from other sources, 40 per cent of it is going to come from new radio advertisers drawn because of the distinct audience that the radio station we are proposing will attract or from those who presently advertise in newspaper, outdoor advertising and other media, but will find them expensive when measured against the effectiveness of Fort McMurray FM.

7027             Thirty per cent will come from expanded radio advertising budgets.  While Fort McMurray FM's audience share will largely come from the existing private stations, our revenue will not.  Indeed, our estimated first‑year portion of $300,000 from existing radio budgets could largely be accommodated through current natural market growth alone.

7028             Mr. Chair, members of the Commission, we believe that our application strikes the right balance for Fort McMurray, the right format, the right plan and the right owner/operator.  Thank you for your consideration and we would be happy to answer any questions you may have.

7029             THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Maheu.  Commissioner Cram.

7030             COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.  You get me again, aren't you lucky?  Anyway, I was going to start with your programming and can I assume that all of your programming is going to be locally produced?

7031             MR. MAHEU: Yes, our programming will be locally produced.

7032             COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.  No co‑production with other stations

7033             MR. MAHEU: No, standalone station on a standalone basis.

7034             COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.  In the other application that you had with us at this hearing for Grande Prairie you had an hour of public affairs programming, and you are not planning that for Fort McMurray?

7035             MR. MAHEU: At this point in time it was not included in our supplemental brief.  We applied for Grande Prairie after our application for Fort McMurray went in.  In thinking about it going forward, obviously we don't want to and cannot change what we have already submitted in a competitive process.  But obviously dependent upon if we were to receive a licence and if there were other competitors licensed we are going to look for every opportunity we can to differentiate ourselves in the midst of competition.

7036             As we spoke about in Grande Prairie, we believe that live programming is becoming a more important way to differentiate along with the music, so it would certainly be a consideration going forward.

7037             COMMISSIONER CRAM: And your live to air 100 per cent of the regulated time?

7038             MR. MAHEU: Yes, we are proposing that we have live personalities on the radio station, Monday to Friday from 5:00 a.m. until midnight, and on the weekends from 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m.  And when we are not live on the air we will be voice tracked and those voice tracks will be produced by station personnel locally.

7039             COMMISSIONER CRAM: Would you agree to a COL to be live to air during all of the regulated hours?

7040             MR. MAHEU: Sure.

7041             COMMISSIONER CRAM: Now your spoken word ‑‑ this, by the way, is a very handy little piece of paper, it has just about everything I wanted to know.

7042             MR. MAHEU: We are learning.

7043             THE CHAIRPERSON: Me too.

7044             COMMISSIONER CRAM: You have three fulltime equivalent news staff and will they be doing exclusively news?

7045             MR. MAHEU: What we are proposing in Fort McMurray is we will have three fulltime news staff and two part‑time for a total of five, which probably works out to about an equivalent of 3.9 or almost four.  And our news people are going to do a number of things.  Obviously, they are going to write and report news and deliver it on the air.  They are also going to report on stories throughout the city and do the things that reporters do.

7046             And we also would anticipate, based on our business plan, that potentially some of the part‑time news people would also help us in gathering information from the community for the eight times a day, one‑minute community updates that we are proposing to air on the station, so they will do a little more than just news, but it will be in that information gathering vein.

7047             COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.  And scheduled news that you have on this piece of paper that you filed with us it talks about 53 four‑minute news packages.  Now, I notice that you have unscheduled info reports, but these news packages would include news, weather, sports?

7048             MR. MAHEU: Yes, they would.

7049             COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.  And they are going to be four minutes.  When are these 53 news reports to be heard?

7050             MR. MAHEU: We can get that for you right ‑‑ on Monday to Friday the regularly scheduled newscasts ‑‑ thank you, Glenda ‑‑ 6:00 a.m., 6:30, 7:00 a.m., 7:30, 8:00 a.m., 8:30, noon, 4:00 and 5:00, all Monday to Friday.  And on the weekends, 7:00 a.m., 8:00 a.m., 9:00 a.m. and noon news on Saturday and Sunday.

7051             So basically what we wanted to make sure we were doing is that in prime time and in morning drive time and afternoon drive, in the high‑tune listening hours, that we do have news and information on the radio stations.

7052             COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.  And in terms of your news, is there a target for local, a proportion of local?

7053             MR. MAHEU: Yes, there is.  Our goal and our stated goal is to have 75 per cent of that news and information that we present be local and the other 25 per cent is a provincial, countrywide or international news and, wherever we can, we would localize that too based on the needs and wants of people in Fort McMurray.

7054             COMMISSIONER CRAM: Now, you talked in your application about listener pools.  How are these done and who does it and..?

7055             MR. MAHEU: They are an interesting feature and we do that on a number ‑‑ not all of our stations, but some of our stations where it makes sense we do them.  And basically it is an opportunity for listeners to give feedback on a big topical issue of the