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Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

              TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

 

 

 

 

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES AVANT

                CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

 

 

                          SUBJECT:

 

 

 

VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

 

Delta Regina                          Delta Regina

1919 Saskatchewan Drive               1919, promenade Saskatchewan

Regina, Saskatchewan                  Regina, Saskatchewan

 

November 2, 2006                      le 2 novembre 2006

 


 

 

 

 

Transcripts

 

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

 

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

 

 

 

 

Transcription

 

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

 

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.


                 Canadian Radio‑television and

                 Telecommunications Commission

 

              Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

                 télécommunications canadiennes

 

 

                   Transcript / Transcription

 

 

                               

                VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /

              PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

                               

 

 

 

 

BEFORE / DEVANT:

 

Barbara Cram                      Chairperson / Présidente

Michel Arpin                      Vice-Chair, Broadcasting / Vice‑président, radiodiffusion

Rita Cugini                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Ronald Williams                   Commissioner / Conseiller

Joan Pennefather                  Commissioner / Conseillère

 

 

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

 

Chantal Boulet                    Secretary / Secrétaire

Leanne Bennett                    Legal Counsel /

Conseillère juridique

Lyne Cape                         Hearing Manager /

Gérante de l'audience

 

 

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

 

Delta Regina                      Delta Regina

1919 Saskatchewan Drive           1919, promenade Saskatchewan

Regina, Saskatchewan              Regina, Saskatchewan

 

November 2, 2006                  le 2 novembre 2006


                           - iv -

 

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

 

                                                 PAGE / PARA

 

SASKATOON - PHASE I

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

 

Harvard Broadcasting Inc.                        1138 / 5721

 

Standard Radio Inc.                              1196 / 5959

 

Touch Canada Broadcasting Inc.                   1266 / 6272

 

Radio CJVR Ltd.                                  1311 / 6499

 

Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc. (AVR)               1385 / 6919

 

Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting Ltd.                1423 / 7103

 

Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Ltd.                1518 / 7515

 

 

 

SASKATOON - PHASE II

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

 

(no appearances)


         Regina, Saskatchewan / Regina (Saskatchewan)

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Thursday, November 2, 2006

    at 0830 / L'audience reprend le jeudi

    2 novembre 2006 à 0830

LISTNUM 95 \l 1 \s 57125712             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15713             Good morning everybody.  It's a period of victory.  Gainer has to sit in the stands and behave himself.  Just wait, we have all winter to think about what we're going to do with Ralph the dog.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15714             Madam Secretary...?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15715             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15716             Before we proceed to the next application, I would just like to indicate for the record that Newcap has filed last night their breakdown of ‑‑ their cost breakdown for their CTD initiatives for both their Regina and Saskatoon applications.  These documents will be placed on their application file and can be reviewed in the public examination room.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15717             We now proceed with item 18 on the agenda, which is an application by Harvard Broadcasting Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15718             The new station would operate on frequency 92.3 MHz (channel 222C1) with an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts (non‑directional antenna/antenna height 179.1 metres).

LISTNUM 95 \l 15719             Appearing for the Applicant is Mr. Bruce Cowie, who will introduce his colleagues, and you will have 20 minutes for your presentation.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15720             Mr. Cowie...?

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 95 \l 15721             MR. COWIE:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15722             Good morning, Madam Chair, members of the Commission, Commission staff.  My name is Bruce Cowie and I'm the Vice‑President of Harvard Broadcasting.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15723             I am pleased to be here today to present our application for The Zone, a new Youth Contemporary FM station serving the growing the City of Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15724             Before beginning our presentation, I would like to introduce the members of our panel.  Seated on my right is Michael Olstrom, our station's group manager.  Seated next to Michael is Karen Broderick; Harvard's National Sales Manager.  On my left is Daryl Holien, Harvard's Director of FM Programming and Creative Services.  Daryl has been in the radio industry for 30 years, having served in every facet of the business from on‑air to production and programming.  Seated next to Daryl is Gary McGowan.  Gary has been in the radio programming and concert promotion business in markets throughout Western Canada including Saskatoon for over 30 years.  Gary's active involvement at the "street level" both as a club owner and in the staging and promotion of concerts provides him with valuable insight into the media habits and musical tastes of the disenfranchised youth market we seek to serve in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15725             In the back row, beginning on my far right, is Debra McLaughlin of Strategic Inc., the company that did our feasibility and consumer demand study. Next to Debra is Rob Malcolmson, a partner at Goodmans LLP, our legal counsel.  Next to Rob is Tina Svedahl, Vice‑President, Investments for Harvard Developments Inc., our parent company.  And on my left in the back row is Paul Hill, President and CEO of Harvard Developments.  Mr. Hill is one of Canada's business leaders and operates a family‑owned, diversified company that has just celebrated 103 years of doing business in Western Canada.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15726             Paul and I will first speak to you about the importance of Saskatoon to our radio operations in Saskatchewan and why Saskatoon is a "must have" market for anyone seeking to operate a viable regional broadcasting business in this province.  Michael will then give an overview of the rapidly growing Saskatoon market and the extraordinarily high demand for the youth contemporary format that we propose.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15727             Karen will speak to the demand among advertisers for our proposed service and then Michael, Daryl and Gary will describe the station in more detail, including the kind of station it will be and the music that it will play.  And I then will present our plans for talent development.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15728             Paul...?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15729             MR. HILL:  Thank you, Bruce.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15730             As the Commission knows, Harvard is a regional broadcaster based in Saskatchewan.  We have been in the broadcasting business for three decades and have been proud and honoured to serve the residents of Regina and southern Saskatchewan.  However, our efforts to establish a major presence in radio in our home province of Saskatchewan have always been hampered by the fact that we do not have a station in Saskatoon. Saskatoon is the largest radio market in the province and it is the only market in the entire province that is experiencing any significant growth.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15731             Saskatoon represents the foundation of our regional growth strategy.  Having tracked the economy in this market for years, we know that the city is underserved and can support a new radio station. Bruce...?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15732             MR. COWIE:  Members of the Commission, the Regina‑Saskatoon corridor represents the economic lifeblood of Saskatchewan.  Regina is the capital city and centre for Government, but Saskatoon is where the majority of the province's head offices choose to locate and it is the hub from which all economic growth within the province emanates. As is the case in many businesses, an established presence in both of these cities is an absolute necessity for growth and long term viability in Saskatchewan.  Radio is no exception to that rule.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15733             We are committed to continuing our history of community service and to investing in the communities we serve.  But we cannot do it alone in Saskatchewan ‑‑ we need your assistance to make our radio business viable in this province for the long term.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15734             The assistance you can and, in our view, should provide, is a new licence in Saskatoon.  A Harvard station in Saskatoon will correct an imbalance that exists among the province's radio operators and provide us with new opportunities to generate advertising revenues that are not available today as we cannot offer media buyers a window into the province's largest and fastest growing market.  A new station in this market will provide us with critical mass, will strengthen our operations in Regina and will provide us with the ability to weather downturns in the Regina economy.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15735             In recent years, we have continually monitored the strength of the Saskatoon market.  In fact, we have undertaken no less than five economic surveys over the past five years.  Like the other applicants, we have determined that now is finally the right time to introduce some diversity of ownership and programming in the Saskatoon radio market.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15736             Saskatoon is key to our long term viability in Saskatchewan.  We submitted our application before the Commission issued its call because we knew the city was underserved and could support a new radio station.  The economy is strong and growing and the youth market, in particular, is underserved.  In short, the time is right to issue a licence in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15737             Michael...?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15738             MR. OLSTROM:  Thank you, Bruce.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15739             The economic future in Saskatoon continues to be bright.  Across all indicators ‑‑ real GDP, population, total employment, personal income and housing starts, the forecast is for ongoing positive growth. Perhaps the most critical element to examine in terms of the viability of the radio advertising sector, however, is retail sales.  And it is in this area that the strength of the Saskatoon economy can be seen.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15740             The Conference Board of Canada reports that retail sales grew by 10.7 percent between 2004 and 2005.  To put this in context, Saskatoon's growth is expected to outpace Canada as a whole in this key indicated. Consumer confidence is high and the retail sector is expected to continue to prosper as a result.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15741             In addition to a healthy economy, Saskatoon has a growing population that is defying the overall provincial decline.  According to updated figures from the Financial Post Markets 2006, half of Saskatoon's population is under 34 years of age.  The city is also home to the University of Saskatchewan and its almost 20,000 students.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15742             In our consumer demands survey, the majority of respondents in the 15 to 24 demographic, 56 percent, reported that there was little to listen to on the radio. Over three‑quarters of this group, (78 percent) said they would listen more if the music they liked were available and only 15 percent stated they were very satisfied with local radio.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15743             Coincidental with the clear expressions of dissatisfaction was a significant statement of interest in The Zone.  Fully 83 percent expressed an intention to listen should the service be licensed.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15744             MS BRODERICK:  Growth in radio advertising revenues is directly tied to growth in the retail sector.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15745             Multiple sources ‑‑ Conference Board of Canada, Financial Post Markets, the Region of Saskatoon and Provincial estimates ‑‑ all conclude that Saskatoon will experience real growth in retail sales and surpass both the regional and national projections, but it is the size of the youth market in combination with the current lack of service for this demographic that argues most persuasively for the success of The Zone.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15746             Advertiser interest in youth radio exists at both local and national levels. The opportunities for a youth service in Saskatoon are no different than those presented to the Commission in other markets. These advertisers are looking either exclusively or in combination with other consumer groups to reach the very audience The Zone will serve.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15747             Also noteworthy is that retailers generally are confident that an independent radio operator will introduce much needed competition to Saskatoon.  And because The Zone will be positioned to grow both tuning and revenues, it will have minimal impact on the incumbent stations when it enters the market.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15748             Michael...?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15749             MR. OLSTROM:  Thank you, Karen.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15750             Harvard recognizes the need to provide service to younger audiences to ensure radio's place in their media choices as they age.  As we all know, there has been a general decline in youth tuning.  We need to make radio relevant to a younger audience.  Our Youth Contemporary Format will accomplish this.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15751             The Zone will offer the same cohesive listening experience as Adult Contemporary, but will be specifically designed to meet the needs of a younger demographic.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15752             Our research identified a large variety of music and less repetition as being critical to developing Saskatoon's youth audience.  Offering a mix of currently charting Pop, Urban, Alternative, and Modern Rock Music, The Zone's playlist will satisfy the widest range of interests within the youth market.  In addition to hit international acts, top Canadian artists such as Nelly Furtado, Nickelback, Hot Hot Heat and K‑os will feature prominently in our regular playlist and will receive meaningful airplay on the station, as evidenced by our commitment to 40 percent Canadian content.  Daryl...?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15753             MR. HOLIEN:  One of the programming elements that was also given great importance by the respondents to the Strategic study was information programming.  We know that our listeners will want programming that speaks to them.  Saskatoon's youth want more coverage of the issues and events that matter to them most; presented to them in a relevant and engaging way.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15754             In addition to 75 newscasts each week, The Zone will offer coverage of local, regional, university, and high school sports.  Five times a day, we will broadcast the Entertainment ZONE, which will feature club and concert listings, all‑ages shows and other events that will interest our younger listeners.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15755             In addition to news, sports and entertainment and feature programming, The Zone intends to offer other locally relevant information programming to youth. Through a unique information series we call Enrichment, we will help listeners get to know their local community in a meaningful way.  We will broadcast one‑minute Enrichment segments throughout the programming day. This segment will bring the city's rich cultural traditions into the mainstream, making them relevant to younger listeners and facilitating cross‑cultural understanding.  Gary...?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15756             MR. McGOWAN:  The Zone will be entertaining, interactive and original.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15757             Our feature programming will examine new trends and emerging talent across all genres that appeal to youth.  The Indie ZONE, Saskatoon ZONE, The Urban Play ZONE, and The Canadian ZONE will become appointment‑listening for our listeners.  Through our feature programs, The Zone will focus on a variety of genres; showcase local talent and promote emerging Canadian acts.  We will offer a weekly countdown of top music; feature guest appearances by "Listener DJs", broadcast listener polls; and offer "instant messaging" between listeners and hosts.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15758             Of particular note is the special emphasis that The Zone will place on Canadian and regional Youth Contemporary artists not just through our commitment to offer 40 percent Canadian content, but also through the Canadian ZONE feature celebrating home‑grown talent from Saskatchewan and across Canada, with a special emphasis on new acts.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15759             The Zone will also support and promote those Saskatoon venues that the showcase music that appeals to our audience.  We believe that in partnering with local live music venues like Amigos, the Odeon and Louie's Pub at the U of S, The Zone will invigorate the local music scene and attract Youth Contemporary artists to Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15760             Now that you have heard all about The Zone, let's sample its sound and hear from the Saskatoon audience we seek to serve.

‑‑‑ Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

LISTNUM 95 \l 15761             MR. COWIE:  Members of the Commission, Harvard is committing over one million dollars over seven years to foster Canadian Talent Development in Saskatoon.  Our CTD package will expand an initiative we first introduced as part of our Calgary application; an intensely‑local approach focused on three phases of an artist's development, Discovery, Exposure and Support.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15762             First, Discovery:  Harvard will stage an annual high profile talent search in the Saskatoon area.  The Zone's audiences will participate by voting for the finalists. Finalists will be featured on the radio station and listeners will be asked to vote on line for their favourite. On the final night, an all‑ages concert will be held at a local venue where the finalists will perform and the winners will be announced.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15763             Next, Exposure and Support:  The Zone will build on the exposure given to the artists over the course of the contest by producing and releasing a CD featuring two selections from each of five finalists.  The CD will be heavily promoted locally and on‑air and copies will be provided to each of the artists.  All profits from the sale of the CD will be split among the contributing artists.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15764             The Zone will also support local music, education in Saskatoon by funding four annual scholarships for students attending the University of Saskatchewan's Department of Music.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15765             Finally, Harvard will donate $20,000 per year for seven years to a Local Broadcast Centre of VoicePrint Canada.  VoicePrint currently has no presence in Saskatchewan and this funding will provide it with the means to train and develop on‑air readers and develop writers in the art of broadcast description.  Michael...?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15766             MR. OLSTROM:  Part of The Zone's commitment to Saskatoon is to reflect all groups in the community.  As such, over and above the direct CTD funding, we will invest in an innovative talent development program for Aboriginal broadcasters; a  program that we first introduced as part of our successful Calgary FM application. In partnership with APTN, Harvard will offer a news‑mentoring program.  The ultimate goal of this is initiative to provide "hands‑on" training and broadcast experience to persons who might not otherwise have access to entry level positions, and yet who have a real passion for, and whose career aspirations include, news.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15767             MR. COWIE:  Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, in closing, I would like to summarize why we believe The Zone fulfills the Commission's licensing criteria:

LISTNUM 95 \l 15768             Approval of this application will bring diversity of programming and ownership to a market currently served by just two owners, each with three stations. This diversity will add a new voice to Saskatoon and will develop the market in terms of new programming, advertisers, and audience.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15769             The Zone will offer 40 percent  Canadian content and supply a Youth Contemporary format that is missing in the market and that responds to the high demand on the part of the youth demographic.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15770             We will promote the development  of Canadian talent both on‑air and off through our feature programming and locally‑focussed CTD package of over one million dollars.  In addition, our partnership with APTN will benefit all parties and help train a new generation of Aboriginal reporters.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15771             And, finally, granting our application will strengthen an independent broadcaster that has done business in Saskatchewan for over 30 years, allowing us to extend our tradition of community service to the growing market of Saskatoon.  Critical mass and access to growth are essential to long‑term viability and sustainability in this province.  In Saskatchewan growth resides in Saskatoon and this market is therefore critical to our future.  In our view, Harvard, as a Saskatchewan based broadcaster deserves the opportunity to grow within its home province. We hope you will agree.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15772             Thank you for your time and attention.  We are pleased to answer any questions and Michael Olstrom will act as our quarterback.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15773             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm happy to know that Louis is probably still around.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15774             Commissioner Cugini...?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15775             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15776             Mr. Cowie, Mr. Olstrom, colleagues, welcome back to I guess it's round three; different, city, different round.  Hopefully you will be pleasantly surprised at how few questions I have. It's an absolute reflection on obviously the quality of your application, as well as your presentation this morning, but I will start with format.  Pop, Urban, Modern and Alternative Rock.  I can appreciate that in a larger market this may be three or even four different radio stations.  Why are you so confident that the blending of these formats will create a radio station that the youth will want to listen to?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15777             MR. OLSTROM:  Commissioner Cugini, first I'd like to say we're very stoked about this format and opportunity to bring it to the youth demographic or the youth of Saskatoon.  I guess the closest analogy I can use with the format is that comparing it to Adult Contemporary and Adult Contemporary in terms of the number of charts that they use to compile their sound, and that's for an older demographic; ours targeting the youth demographic.  The key differences being the charts that are used, the amount of new music that is being used, and then the 12 to 34 broad demographic that we are targeting.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15778             And I would like to turn to Gary McGowan who can give you a little bit of insight into the format, the music, and how it works, and how we believe this is going to work in the Saskatoon marketplace.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15779             MR. McGOWAN:  Well, the top‑line part of the answer, Commissioner, is the fact that this is the way today's youth consume music.  One of the number one things that if you talk to them, if you research them, that they will tell you, is they like variety and they like new stuff and they like some push on it.  They like some experimentation on it, so if I can take a few minutes, I'll take you through some more detail on how Youth Contemporary radio works, how we're going to put it together in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15780             Michael had referenced the charts we're going to draw from.  As you said, in larger markets, you often have the population base to section it out a bit more.  In fact, many recent licences have done just that in other parts of the country.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15781             In Saskatoon we have a unique opportunity because the service window is so large; to put it together, not just similar to the way they might download those individual genres and load them up on their iPod and walk around the town because they can't listen to it otherwise on the radio.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15782             So we'll draw music from the four major charts that have youth elements in them, Pop and Top 40.  The various streams of Urban, which includes mainstream Hip Hop, Rap, Rhythmic CHR, Modern Rock and Alternative Rock.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15783             The fifth element is real, really important in this.  Maybe it's the most important in connecting with the audience reflecting their interests and building their loyalty, and that is new artists and new music that has yet to appear on any chart.  These are very inquisitive people.  It's a generation that really likes new things and likes it in great frequency.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15784             That's certainly a message that as we have dialogued with our audience in Saskatoon, and researched them, has been repeated over and over again, and said, essentially our hours of tuning to radio are declining because radio does not address our interest in new music or share our interest in musical experimentation.  So The Zone is going to address this.  Music that is less than two years old will make up approximately 70 percent of our playlist.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15785             Now, in a bit I will ask Daryl Holien, keeper of the numbers around this to provide you with a breakdown of how this music would fit together if The Zone were launching today.  When he does that, though, I want you to keep in mind that in a year from today, if we were on the air, it might be very different because our focus is on the audience. It's on these people and, as we said, the one thing that is predictable about them, is that their tastes are ever shifting and ever changing.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15786             Now, another message that we received loud and clear was the Youth's audience dislike of excess repetition and lack of variety, so The Zone will prominently feature new and emerging artists.  For example, in other areas, existing stations in Canada that would typically describe themselves as introducing high levels of new music, will generally dedicate about five percent of their schedule to new and emerging artists.  Off the top, The Zone is going to draw 10 percent of its schedule from this category and Canadian artists will represent 50 percent of that 10 percent.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15787             Now, we're excited at the prospects for The Zone because the music the station is going to play, some of which you saw in the video, is almost completely unavailable in Saskatoon. In fact, I think we were a little surprised at how unavailable it is when we looked at some of the existing YCR stations in the country.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15788             The newly launched Z103.5 in Halifax and the Beat in Vancouver. And we compared songs, we'll take ‑‑ do the Beat off the top, songs the Beat was playing during the week of October 18th to 31st and compared that to their availability, the availability of those songs in Saskatoon.  83.2 percent were not heard in Saskatchewan's largest city.  Of the artists on the Beat's playlist, 79.9 percent were not heard in Saskatoon.  And the equivalent numbers from Z103.5 in Halifax are 79.9 percent and 78.8 percent, so we're very excited at the opportunity that awaits this radio station in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15789             And the final sort of the leg of the table, as it were, is The Zone spoken word programming.  Spoken word and its relevance is a very important and key distinguishing element of a radio station like The Zone.  We will be running less general talk and much more discussion of the music and the artists because it's very central to the experience of these people.  It's an important part of their lives, which you witness every day in the ‑‑ essentially the trouble that they go to currently to find this music.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15790             I mean, you know, you got to spend some time to search it.  I mean, there are even Internet programs, now, as you know, that if you like a particular genre or combination of genres, will go run the net and find a new band who has just put up a website that you can access and download.  And I think we have an opportunity to, you know, help in that area.  So talk about the music and the artists is important.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15791             Our on‑air delivery is going to be entertaining and information rich with content that appeals to this demographic because we're going to focus on topics relevant to the younger listener in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15792             And the last point is another very key component of the radio station.  As I was having my music related discussions with those who are active in the music world in Saskatoon, I had a very telling conversation with one individual who works within the scene because we were, you know, just talking about what do you think about what's going on and such, and he said something that was of great interest to me.  He said, you know, people do listen to the radio in Saskatoon, he said, but I find, he said, that everything seems to be targeted over the heads of the youth audience.  It's not necessarily that it's bad or there is anything wrong with it, it's just not coming from their point of view.  And that led to the observation that there was a huge void for this demographic in Saskatoon to get their fix about music, about films that interest them about any sort of cultural events.  It's just not a top‑line message in the Saskatoon radio or other medias.  And that's simply because they ‑‑ it's not a primary focus for them, it just isn't.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15793             So I think he ‑‑ he didn't use the word stoked.  He used the word starved when he said, kids are really starved for cultural outlets in the city.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15794             So those are really some of the key elements that distinguish the radio station and the reason that it's put together is not because we think it's a good idea.  It's because that is the behaviour and the taste and the interest as young people today are displaying them.  And we think if we reflect that, plug into that, that The Zone is going to be very successful in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15795             MR. OLSTROM:  If I can add to that as well.  We know Saskatoon is a very young market.  In fact, median age is younger than anywhere else in Canada.  And 67 percent of the population is under the age of 45.  The 12 to 34 cell that we are looking to target comprises 41.3 percent of the population in Saskatoon and there is a station in the market that does serve that demographic to some extent.  Their median age, I believe, is approximately 34 years of age.  The median age of this radio station of The Zone is actually 24 years of age, 24.6, so rounded out either way.  And we believe that there is a significant youth audience there for us to be successful and it also leads to what we found out on the retail side in terms of what's been expressed to us in terms of a demand in the marketplace to serve that younger demographic.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15796             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Well, thank you for that thorough response.  In light of you raising the issue of the demo, you are targeting perhaps one of the most difficult.  We heard throughout the radio review that, in particular, the 12 to 17 year olds just ‑‑ radio is not part of their language, it's not part of their everyday habit.  Is this the answer to bring that 12 to 17 year old back to radio?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15797             MR. OLSTROM:  Well, we hope it's a portion of it.  Harvard, as you know, has been before the Commission on a couple of occasions with a youth targeted format and we believe that it is vital and incumbent upon us to ensure that we are bringing back the future radio listeners and maybe I can turn to Debra McLaughlin to speak a little bit about this audience and their needs and wants and what's missing.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15798             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Well, first I would like to say there is no panacea.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15799             We're not proposing that we found it, but we do know that music is a key driver and as much as iPods and the Internet offer them an opportunity to find the music, information is also important.  And I was just reviewing some research that suggested that the uptake in satellite radio that was considered to be maybe an area of interest, despite the financial implications ‑‑ sorry, I think I'm catching your bug, I'll get that later ‑‑ has slowed down somewhat simply because there is a need also to have local information.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15800             And when I go out and do research ‑‑ and I didn't do focus groups in this market, but just recently I have been across the country doing focus groups in the youth format, local radio still has potential, but it is music that's the driver and, you know, if ‑‑ you know, if we could open up the spectrum, have unlimited stations, perhaps the best thing to do would be to have a station in every format, but ultimately that's not possible.  And that's not how they're living.  They would be flipping from station to station, making none of them really viable.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15801             So the way to look at this is to try and put it together in the way they're experiencing life, in the way that Gary has described it, and to create an opportunity for them at least to find something in the spectrum, and with the local news driving it, we think this will bring them back.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15802             And, you know, just so you know there is a real live test, the Beat in Vancouver, which is a client of mine, had a very narrow focus for several years. They were licensed as Urban.  They stayed within that genre.  They covered all spectrums of those genres, all the sub ones that Gary has talked about.  It's when they added CHR that their shares started to move up.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15803             And you may recall in Edmonton, we were there, and we were talking about a blended format and when that hearing was over, there was several youth stations in the market suddenly and over time the ones that did the best were the ones that expanded their music selections rather than focussed in.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15804             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15805             Do you see any overlap between this proposal and those of the other applicants and any overlap with any of the incumbent radio stations?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15806             MR. OLSTROM:  There would be some overlap with the Rawlinson‑Hildebrand trust as they are proposing a CHR format.  From what I understand of their application, CHR tends to be higher in repetition, tends to be a little bit older and demographic than what we are proposing.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15807             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And with any of the incumbent radio stations, do you see any overlap?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15808             MR. OLSTROM:  There would be some overlap on the younger end with C95.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15809             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15810             MR. OLSTROM:  But as I mentioned, if you take a look at the median age of each station, it's considerably separated.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15811             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So you see it as a minimal overlap on both ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 15812             MR. OLSTROM:  We went into the market and looked at the opportunities in the marketplace and we felt that an older demographic format, we looked at adult standards, and we felt that an older targeted radio station would impact the incumbents more greatly, and hence the choice of focusing on the youth demographic as well, as well as our belief in programming to that demographic.  It was going to be the least impactful in the marketplace.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15813             MS McLAUGHLIN:  If I could just add, one of the important things, as I said before, is the music driving this, and Gary referred to some duplication analysis we did.  And if you look at the typical playlist of a YCR chart, I believe Gary, you have the numbers before you, but in the area of 80 percent of the playlist of the YCR from Halifax and the YCR from Vancouver is not being played in this market.  That is a huge gap to put a radio station in and it allows, with all of this room and all of this music, to create a very unique identity that won't affect their brand at all.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15814             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15815             Just one question of clarification on your CTD commitments; $140,000 over seven years for the University of Saskatchewan scholarships.  Will Harvard participate in any way in the selection of who will receive those scholarships?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15816             MR. COWIE:  We have requested that one of those scholarships be available to an Aboriginal person; however, I must tell you that currently there are none registered in that particular program.  Our intention would be to continue to offer the scholarships with the understanding that it will be used in part to attract Aboriginal persons to that program and would be used for that purpose.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15817             We have that undertaking from the department, but they also came back to us and said very clearly, we do not have any currently, and have not had for some years, but the University is trying to integrate Aboriginal students into some of these various programs and this one in particular.  So we expect that during the term of this licence, at least, that direction will be followed through.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15818             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And it's not as if that scholarship won't be awarded if it's not to an Aboriginal student?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15819             MR. COWIE:  Oh, no, the scholarships will be awarded.  And the choice of the scholarship will be by the Department at the University.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15820             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15821             News and spoken word.  You say 126 hours of local with no automated programming?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15822             MR. OLSTROM:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15823             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And of that two hours and 32 minutes will be news, will be pure news?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15824             MR. OLSTROM:  Pure news is two hours, 32 and a half minutes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15825             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And is that news 100 percent local?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15826             MR. OLSTROM:  The news will be approximately an 80/20 split, so in other words, 20 percent will make up International, National stories of that nature.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15827             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  In your application you say that the Saskatoon station will provide coverage of provincially relevant news stories from the surrounding area for broadcast on the Regina station.  Is the reverse true?  Will the Regina station provide any news to the Saskatoon station?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15828             MR. OLSTROM:  What we see as synergy here with news, obviously Regina being the provincial capital.  We having ‑‑ Harvard having a significant news gathering operation in Regina, being able to feed stories to Saskatoon, stories of relevance that impact the Saskatoon and area. We also see that Saskatoon being able ‑‑ as a bigger business centre, being able to feed business stories from our news department to our operation here in Regina.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15829             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So would those stories coming from Regina be part of that 20 percent or would you still consider that to be local news?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15830             MR. OLSTROM:  No, that would be more ‑‑ I guess that would be more on the local regional side of things because it is impacting ‑‑ I mean, Regina, Saskatoon is almost local when we get down to it.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15831             MR. COWIE:  Commissioner Gugini, this group is interested in what the Government does.  They don't like a lot of it, but they're interested in what the Government does, so that we think is an important part of it.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15832             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do you anticipate any other synergies with your Regina station?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15833             MR. OLSTROM:  We do. I would like to turn to Tina Svedahl who can maybe speak to the synergies that we believe there are between the two operations.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15834             MS SVEDAHL:  Yes, it's obvious with Saskatoon being so close to Regina that there are synergies in the areas of accounting and administration, which makes sense to have Regina be our headquarters and centralize that information.  Also on the regional sales side, our regional sales oversight will come from Regina.  And lastly, our oversight on the technical and engineering side is centralized in Regina, so definitely those synergies exist.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15835             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I think you also mentioned in your application that there might be some synergies with your recently licensed Calgary station.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15836             MS SVEDAHL:  Same type of synergies exist.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15837             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Same type?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15838             MS SVEDAHL:  Well, definitely ‑‑ not so much on the regional sales for Calgary, of course, but definitely in the accounting and administration areas.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15839             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15840             Do you have an estimate of the percentage of advertising that you think would come from existing radio ‑‑ from the existing stations in the market?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15841             MR. OLSTROM:  I would like to turn to Karen Broderick to speak a little bit about that and then maybe have Debra follow up with that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15842             MS BRODERICK:  We actually haven't broken it down into a percentage, but what we do know that with the population growth of Saskatoon continuing to increase, that the skew towards the younger demographics will also continue, so by us grow in tuning, we in fact will be able to grow revenue, advertising revenue in the marketplace

LISTNUM 95 \l 15843             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  But you haven't broken it down between how much of that revenue would come from existing radio stations or how much would come from new advertisers?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15844             MS BRODERICK:  We actually did do a revenue breakdown and that was ‑‑ existing would be 35 percent; new advertisers 30 percent; other media 20; and increased by just 15 percent.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15845             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay, thank you.  How much of a challenge is it going to be for you as a stand‑alone station in the Saskatoon market with the Hildebrand/Rawlco trust as you called it earlier?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15846             MR. COWIE:  Well, when we began to clearly define ourselves as being interested, for the most part, in the younger demographics because we believe that therein lies an opportunity and there also lies a challenge.  Repatriation to radio is going to be difficult.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15847             But, you know, I have a granddaughter in Winnipeg who is working to become a professional singer and sings with the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra, for example, but also if I listen to her iPod, I would hear our format.  And I would have some comfort if she wasn't listening to her iPod in the car when she was driving around Saskatoon, but it ‑‑ we think it's doable.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15848             And, quite frankly, I think radio in Canada has just not paid attention to this demographic because it was easier to everybody be massed in the middle where most of the money is.  And there is a temptation to go there, and why wouldn't you?  Radio, after all, is a business, but we think there is an opportunity and we think we can make a business of this, particularly if we have enough critical mass to do it.  And the synergies are going to be important, particularly synergies of thought, and that's why this team has been together now for five years.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15849             We have thought these things through, we have talked to people.  Our on‑street activity through  Gary McGowan, for example, has been critical to our planning.  Debra McLaughlin, who I think is the best market research person in the country, really has a handle on it.  She knows the music better than most of the programmers do.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15850             So we're confident it is not going to be easy.  We're showing a projected loss over the first seven years of this licence, but we think that investment will be returned over time.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15851             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Mr. Cowie and team, thank you very much.  Madam Chair, those are all my questions, thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15852             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Vice‑Chair Arpin.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15853             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15854             In the video we hear one youth's testimony saying that what he hates the most is advertising.  And what are your plans to satisfy his feelings?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15855             MR. COWIE:  There would have been a temptation to take that part out.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 95 \l 15856             MR. COWIE:  There is no question, if you ask 15 youth in a room, you're not going to get a unanimous decision for advertising, but I think if you give them something back for it, we can erase that reluctance.  And the ‑‑ if we give them what they want, which is variety, new music, and people talking to them instead of over their heads, we think we can solve that problem.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15857             MS BRODERICK:  If I can just add to that, we have scheduled, actually, only eight minutes of advertising per hour, which is actually, you know, on the lower end.  And, in addition to that, just by the nature of our format and the advertisers that we're going to target, it's been researched that if you make the advertising relevant to the audience you seek to serve, the tune‑out factor tends to be less.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15858             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  I could understand that when you've got to launch the station, obviously, you will even have difficulties selling an average of eight minutes per hour, but if you were to be more successful than you expect, then will you be ‑‑ not be tempted to increase that eight minutes per hour to something more?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15859             MR. OLSTROM:  Commissioner Arpin, let me speak just on a reference point to one of our radio stations here in Regina, The Wolf, which currently is the number 1 station 12 plus, number 1 station 2554.  It runs eight minutes of commercials an hour.  I'm a programmer at heart and we will not exceed that; the rates go up.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15860             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And the Saskatoon market will sustain the rate increase? The economy is that strong in the ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 15861             MR. COWIE:  We believe it is.  There is an opportunity there and the ‑‑ and I guess what attracted us on another level is that Saskatchewan has a history of going up and down.  You know, there has been a lot of talk about PST in the last few days.  The history in this province is that for many, many years there was always a reduction in the provincial sales tax prior to an election, but before the next election it was back.  I'm not suggesting that will happen in this case, but I would be ‑‑ wouldn't be surprised.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15862             But I think the pool is large enough that even if there were those periodic downturns in Saskatoon, that market share is big enough that we can survive in there; that there is a business there that will sustain us through downturns.  And also, as an extension with that, would help in sustaining Regina ‑‑ a Regina station over time where downturns are more prominent.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15863             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  I'm sure that you have done various studies to see what is the advertising ‑‑ radio advertising capacity of the Saskatoon market and what are the incumbents taking at this time?  Could you share your views with us on that?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15864             MR. COWIE:  I think the numbers you have been hearing are pretty much what the reality is.  The marketplace provincially is ‑‑ or for the two major cities is probably in the 36 million dollar area, and with the larger portion of that going to Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15865             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And, as you said earlier, your financials are showing that you will be losing money throughout the first licence term.  Is it acceptable from a corporate standpoint for an organization of the size of Harvard and Harvard Development?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15866             MR. COWIE:  I don't think Mr. Hill advocates losing money at any time, but through the synergies north, south in the province, we will be deriving new incomes from Saskatoon that come to Regina that we are not now getting.  And that will be coming into our Regina station as part of regional buys.  We would see, in terms of our internal accounting, that those revenues which are new and are generated in Saskatoon for Regina might very well be seen to as offsetting for the most part those losses in the early years in Saskatoon, so we're ‑‑ these numbers are quite acceptable to us, presuming that's what they are, and that the growth in regional revenue between the two markets will help offset those.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15867             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And if, for any given reason, the format doesn't deliver to your expectation, will you be tempted to move it more towards the centre and compete against the incumbent really to get a better market share?  You have the experience, you're already a leader here in Regina, so you have some knowledge of the market conditions and you surely are in a better position than many other of the applicants that are outside the region.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15868             MR. COWIE:  We don't like the consequences of changing format.  We thought this through very carefully and I guess how I would answer this is in one word, we are patient, and this is going to take some time to grow, we know that, but we know the rewards are there if we stay the course and we would be very reluctant.  It would take a long time of beating our heads against the wall before we would turn away.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15869             So we believe completely that this format will work and you can expect us to stay there and make it work.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15870             MR. ARPIN:  And if the incumbents who are here today in the room and obviously have studied your applications back and forth, are, gee, there is a hole, we never saw it, and they were to start moving towards that hole, do you have an alternative plan if you were to be granted the licence?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15871             MR. COWIE:  No, we don't expect they will go there, but if even if they do, they will be ‑‑ they will be dealing with a format, a group of people who are completed dedicated to that and not a piece of another format.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15872             So they would be unwise to make that choice, I would think, and if they did, we will take them on.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15873             MR. ARPIN:  Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Cowie.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15874             Madam Chair...?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15875             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15876             Commissioner Pennefather.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15877             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15878             Good morning, Mr. Cowie, ladies and gentlemen.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15879             I wanted just to pursue the discussion we have been having throughout the hearing on indicators for the capacity of a market to absorb a new station or not, and the impact on existing stations.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15880             My first question, just to see if I understood your remarks this morning, that you list the indicators that we would use to make that assessment, but you say the most critical element in terms of viability is retail sales. Other intervenors may, in this market and perhaps Regina as well, indicate market profitability is the most important indicator.  Can you expand on your point?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15881             I think there may be three parts to this answer and I think I'll start with Debra McLaughlin.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15882             MS McLAUGHLIN:  If I understand your question, you would like a ranking of the indicators in terms of the relevancy in this proceeding?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15883             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  You have already ‑‑ I believe these comments already ranked by saying this, "The most critical element would be retail sales," and I wondered why you said that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15884             MS McLAUGHLIN:  That comment would be made in regards to the very close relationship between radio broadcaster ability to generate revenue in the market, and there being availability in the market to support it, because retail sales, the lag time is three to 12 months in terms of reactions, generally, and radios, as I believe you heard yesterday, is typically the first of the media to be cancelled should there be any change in retail sales.  And so if the retail sales sector is going to be growing, it bodes very well for radio advertising revenue.  Radio has a shorter lead time, it's very local, it's portable.  People ‑‑ it's almost a point of purchased material in the sense that people can be walking by a store, listening to the radio, and be dragged in because of a sale to be attracted to something.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15885             Because it has such entirely local aspects to it, and because it has immediacy to it, it means that retailers tend to use it more, and so if there is any changes in that retail environment, radio is the first impacted.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15886             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And that would be the reason for the seeming ranking that you gave here?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15887             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15888             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  In looking at the way to analyze the markets, I think in terms of Regina you were concerned about the possibility of a new station in that market, whereas obviously in this market you see there is a possibility.  Could you clarify, Mr. Cowie, where you see the key differences?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15889             MR. COWIE:  One of them is the one we just talked about at the levels of retail activity in the marketplace.  The differences are Saskatoon's population is growing, Regina's population is not.  And when I say it is not, if it is, it's very slow and will tend to be about the same number it has been for many years.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15890             The economic activity in terms of business leadership now is by and large in the Saskatoon area, somewhat based on the resource opportunities in the north and so on, but Saskatoon has proudly on its own built its way past Regina over time and as by design.  I mean, they wanted to do that, so their whole focus has been to become the economic centre of the province.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15891             So population is part of it.  Retail sales is one part of it.  And I guess the other that you always have to measure is the retail plant and is it growing, is it strong enough to support a new station, so the two markets have divided; one is growing, one isn't.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15892             We would be quite happy if both markets were growing equally and Saskatchewan was having this revival that everybody has been talking about.  We haven't seen it yet.  We would be quite happy with that, but the reality is that Regina is kind of stuck in second gear at the moment. We hope that will change.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15893             What we ask the Commission to do in the short term was to not issue a licence there, but to monitor it for a reasonable period of time.  We are we ‑‑ do believe in competition and free enterprise and the need for, wherever possible, increased programming opportunities.  And at that time, if those elements change, we would be delighted.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15894             MS PENNEFATHER:  Thank you very much.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15895             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15896             Here comes my normal question.  Would you agree to a COL that you would have 100 percent live where ‑‑ during the broadcast week?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15897             MR. COWIE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15898             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15899             I wanted to talk about Saskatoon and how it is different from Regina and particularly in relation to the Aboriginal population.  And of course we have an Urban reserve in Saskatoon, the head of the FSIN, Waneskewin, and then we have what I'm going to call friction between the police and First Nation's people, and of course the whole issue of the Indian Gaming Association having applied twice for a Casino in Saskatoon.  And I was on the Board when it was refused a second time by the people of Saskatoon and it was quite a, I'm going to say, disturbing situation.  And I'm happy to recognize here that you have recognized that difference.  You have APTN with you and you also talked about cross‑cultural information.  Can you tell me more about that?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15900             MR. COWIE:  That was in part at the root of that discovery in our program schedule.  I was born and raised in Prince Albert.  Many of my friends and neighbours were either Metis or First Nations, and we grew up very nicely together.  We understand the problems in Saskatoon.  As a matter of fact, just in an anecdotal way, I started my career in Saskatoon 50 years ago this March.  And so I have always been watching the city.  It's been home for many years and so on.  Part of this program will deal with that or will attempt to deal with that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15901             I think we can promote within our listenership, you know, levels of respect; get the groups together, and make sure that we promote from the proper organizations that they have discovery opportunities from one culture to another and not ‑‑ not separately and totally for the Aboriginal relationships there, but largely for that, but for other reasons too.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15902             So we are cognizant of the issues and are dedicated through, in particular, this Aboriginal mentoring program for journalists.  We don't have those voices.  We don't have them producing the Aboriginal minute.  We don't ‑‑ not yet, but we will.  So we will look for outlets to both inform on what's going on in the marketplace and to provide opportunities for voices to talk about it; not in talk show formats or anything like that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15903             MR. OLSTROM:  Commissioner Cram, that leads to the ‑‑ sort of the Enrichment Program that we've designed, which is there to promote that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15904             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And can you describe it more fully for me?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15905             MR. OLSTROM:  Excuse me, sorry? THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can you describe it more fully, the Enrichment Program?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15906             MR. OLSTROM:  I will turn to Daryl to speak to it a little bit.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15907             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thanks.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15908             MR. HOLIEN:  Really, what the Enrichment Program is, an opportunity to look at the cultural traditions. It could be the venues around the city. It could be traditions of the Aboriginal people and that would be blended throughout ‑‑ throughout the program day.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15909             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I was looking after Mr. Howe's report with the Saskatoon radio application and it would appear to me that a large and growing proportion of your projected audience demographic would be First Nations Aboriginal.  Have you done any work into researching Aboriginal music groups in your proposed genres, Pop, Urban, Alternative, and Modern Rock?  I saw a lot of African Americans in your video, but I didn't see ‑‑ I think there is War Party in Edmonton.  You know, there are some quite good groups.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15910             MR. COWIE:  They appeared for us at a hearing in Edmonton.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15911             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's how I know ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 15912             MR. COWIE:  So we know her.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15913             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15914             MR. OLSTROM:  I would like to have Gary McGowan maybe speak to that a little bit because that's Gary's area of expertise.  He works in that area.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15915             MR. McGOWAN:  Well, I didn't bring any firm numbers with me.  I can tell you anecdotally working for the period of time I have in the independent music community that, interestingly enough, it is a couple of a very defined music genres that really seem to speak.  You referenced War Party who are from a First Nation's reserve south of Edmonton. I'm sure if we called up the Aboriginal Music Awards list, you know, there is quite a number.  And you see that the musics that seem to attract First Nation's youth are somewhat widespread.  I found that it's the most defined music genres that really seem to appeal, be a place where you want to go.  And they tend to be Rap and, to a lesser degree, Hip Hop and in many cases, Metal.  And I think that's because both those musics allow you lots of scope for expression. In the case of Metal, especially real hard core screamo kind of stuff, you know, there is a sense of immersion in it and I think, as we all know, there are ‑‑ you know, because of some of the issues that face the First Nations, there is a lot of emotion there.  And if you're a young person, it gives you a chance to kind of get that out into a biserial level.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15916             When you reference War Party, and certainly there is many, many other, you know, both DJs, MCs and, you know, Rap crews, that work in the community across the country; it's the level of verbiage that you can put out in a track that really allows you the freedom to address a lot of issues that you face and I think that's why ‑‑ that's been my experience, as I say, anecdotally.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15917             So I guess to draw back the radio station, and our interest in independent music and our commitment to it, I know that the Saskatoon music scene has always, you know, traditionally been very healthy.  I think, you know, on a mainstream level, we have seen a couple of Canadian Idol finalists come out of there.  You know, we have seen other applicants who have been, you know, doing some other things with that.  At a very street level, I found that the sense of community and volunteerism to bring music to Saskatoon from elsewhere, and to put it ‑‑ and to create it within a community is amazing.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15918             To give you one example, there is a group called, The International Group of Pals, they have a My Space Page.  These kids are, in many cases, working their, you know, six, seven, $8 an hour jobs and putting their own money on the line to bring touring acts to Saskatoon that in points west and points east are being done as, you know, hard promoted show, contracted show guarantees, in let's say Winnipeg or in Edmonton or Calgary that might normally skip over the Province of Saskatchewan because of perception from maybe some of the larger companies is that, you know,  there is not enough ‑‑ you know, can we do it there.  And these guys are pooling their resources and getting the word out on the Internet through posters and flyers to make this happen.  And there is a lot of that happening to draw artists to Saskatoon, which is a very cross pollination thing and it's also happening both within the First Nation's community and on up. There are basement studios.  There is quite a community support, and, again, my experience has been it's not necessarily getting a lot of help within the community at the moment, but it's there.  And, if it's there, and we can draw it out, I think that's going to ‑‑ I think people will be surprised again what they find in that city.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15919             MR. COWIE:  Commissioner Cram, I think the assurance we would give the Commission is this.  We philosophically have an on‑ramp philosophy and you have seen it in other things we do with Voice Print, with training Aboriginal journalists, and other plans we have for the future, so we're cognizant of the issues here and the lack of opportunity.  And we ‑‑ that certainly will be very close to our thinking as we ‑‑ as the station builds and grows over time.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15920             MR. OLSTROM:  I would like to ‑‑ actually Debra McLaughlin would like to just give a little bit more background.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15921             MS McLAUGHLIN:  The only thing I wanted to share with you is in working with APTN both on the mentoring program and just discussing what they needed, one of the things that excited them the most about this application was the talent search in this market.  Because it's through this that Aboriginal artists who perhaps weren't aware that they could have access to recording or couldn't find the funding or, you know, creating their own My Space Page without understanding the funding elements, would have their first big break.  And it's this talent search in a market where the population is so clearly available and the talent pool is there that will be truly helpful.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15922             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15923             You now have your ‑‑ sorry, Vice‑Chair Arpin...?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15924             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  I apologize, I will follow with one question to you, Mr. Cowie.  When you said that the Saskatoon/Regina market altogether are picking about 36 million dollars in advertising revenues, but that ‑‑ okay, that's for the current size ‑‑ that's the current advertising pie, but how do you see the ‑‑ now, surely you're thinking that there is either money left that nobody has been taking because they are sold out or they ‑‑ or ‑‑ and what is the money left for you in the ‑‑ in Saskatoon?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15925             MR. COWIE:  Thank you, Commissioner.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15926             I will also have Karen Broderick speak to this, but the youth market, as I hate to use this analogy again as I did in Calgary, the shallow end of the pool is reasonably untapped.  We had a look yesterday at the number of businesses in Saskatoon and we won't name any of them obviously, that would be available to support this radio station based simply on our demographic as we go into the marketplace.  We're going to have to obviously attract revenues from outside of that as well, but we are surprised by the number.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15927             I think there were over 200 businesses that operate in both markets currently and over 50 of those were directly inside our genre, so we think that there is an ample base for us to attach ourselves to, to begin and to grow over time, but the ‑‑ I would think that there is ‑‑ there is room for us to, you know, stretch those limits a little bit on the upper side and just to see what we can do there, but we're comfortable that the market is there for us.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15928             MS BRODERICK:  If I could just add to that.  We've identified a fair number of youth advertisers in both markets, but just specifically speaking of Saskatoon, the ones that we spoke to, a lot of them are not current users of radio because they don't necessarily feel that the options they have are ‑‑ they're not ‑‑ their customers are not listening to the stations in the market, so they go to other mediums to actually, you know, advertise.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15929             So there is that opportunity, but in addition to what Bruce was saying about the synergies, there are a number of retailers that operate in both markets, so we see the sales side of the synergy is probably one the most important.  We see that there is a sales synergy between a proposed station in Saskatoon, plus our station in Regina, CFWF, because the demo in Regina is a wider 1834; Saskatoon being 1234, there will be synergies between those two stations.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15930             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  You said those advertisers are going into other radio.  They're surely not going print, the youth generally don't ‑‑ generally speaking don't read the paper, the daily papers, and the weekly papers or community papers?  Where do they go?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15931             MS BRODERICK:  No, what they were telling us is they use flyers or, you know, they do outdoor advertising, transit, that kind of stuff, not necessarily newspaper, because you're right, the youth market isn't high newspaper readers.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15932             MR. OLSTROM:  Maybe if Gary McGowan, just a little anecdotal information that he was able to uncover in the Saskatoon marketplace.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15933             MR. McGOWAN:  During the Calgary hearing, one of the interveners that appeared on our behalf was a company called Union Events, who are a regional concert promotion company specializing in new music.  And they often build ‑‑ you know, their own crew is across the west or sometimes work in tandem with House of Blues on things.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15934             So I actually spoke to them and I said, you know, Woody, I have noticed that you play more shows in Saskatoon than you play in Regina, for starters.  What's the ‑‑ what's your sense of the market?  Like, how do you work in it?  And they said, well, you know, it's challenging to use that word because they said, our top line media choices are really limited, to nonexistent.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15935             Typically what might happen in a larger market is you have AC Decks coming and you will build your media relationship with a print outlet and a radio station that's, you know, format or audience target applicable, have a big concert announcement and start giving away some tickets, gets the buzz building really quickly. And they gave me a couple of examples that both kind of reflect how it has to work now and maybe what the potential of the market is.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15936             There is a Hip Hop artist called Atmosphere who is American, but if you had to equate him with somebody, I would describe him as being very similar to Chaos in the sense that this is thinking man's Hip Hop.  It's not about, you know, the bling and all this.  I mean, it's very about, you know, politics and issues of today.  And they played him through Saskatoon in the fall and the act sold more tickets in Saskatoon than it did in either Edmonton or Calgary.  And there was absolutely no radio support on it.  There is ‑‑ I think maybe they bought some space in Planet S, which is the weekly there, but that was pretty much it.  That was based on getting some posters on some lamp posts and some fliers in the record stores and let ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 15937             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Word of mouth?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15938             MR. McGOWAN:  Word of mouth, letting it go from there because that was the only option they had and they sold a thousand tickets in a market of ‑‑ you know, a quarter of the size of those other cities, both of which also have very viable urban music scenes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15939             On the other hand, we had an act like Pennywise come through, which apparently was a white‑knuckle ride for them because there was no radio support available.  You know, it's just not an act that the current rock station would play because it's just a little too far to the left of any need they have, but yet that act is a corner stone of the third wave of the punk rock, as it's called, that came out of California starting in the '80s and are much admired by people who respect that kind of music.  And whereas it started blowing up all over the place in, you know, Winnipeg and Edmonton and Calgary, I think the on‑sale was very weak and we held on, we only did, like, 15 percent of the capacity on the first day.  We thought, do we have to cancel this show, and then the word of mouth kicked in again.  And it still didn't perform as well as it did in some of the other markets, but they got away with it.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15940             So I said, well, you know, how do you feel about things, and they said, well really, you know, I think the word heartache was described in terms of trying to approach a lot of mainstream media in Saskatoon right now, because they said, you know, just so much of what we do falls outside of their parameters, but yet there is an audience for it.  If we had an outlet, I said obviously, and described the radio station to them.  I said, yeah, obviously that would be a big help.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15941             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15942             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, Mr. Cowie, your two minutes to shine.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15943             MR. COWIE:  Tank you, Madam Chair, members of the Commission.  Our conclusion after reading all of the applications is that there is an opportunity for a new service in Saskatoon.  What that opportunity is and how big it is, in our mind, are the two pivotal questions in this processes.  Saskatoon leads the province in terms of all key economic indicators and they are our forecast to continue to improve; however, to suggest that because of two spectacular years Saskatoon is suddenly in the league of Alberta markets is to overstate the case.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15944             It is this reality and obvious need to create listening opportunities for an increasingly disenfranchised youth that guided the design of our proposition. The Zone is the best choice for this market for several reasons.  One, it serves the market 12 to 24 that is being left behind; is more immediately lucrative, demographics are served by the existing broadcasters; a systemic issue that must be addressed if the future of radio broadcasting is to be secured.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15945             The 12 to 24 population base in Saskatoon is large, over 40 percent of the market, and is underserved. This means that even if the economic forecasts are not as rosy as suggested by some, we would have a large enough base from which to draw an audience and develop revenues.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15946             By addressing a clearly underserved niche audience, we can enter Saskatoon with less impact on the other applicants, over the other applicants, who seek to compete directly with the existing services. And, most importantly, the format we propose has scored very high in demand test, fully 81 percent of the 15 to 34 population stated that they would definitely or probably listen.  It is a format that is working extremely well in both Vancouver and Halifax and is drawing young people back to radio.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15947             In closing, we would like to add that we think the test of all of the applications before you should be how well the proposal meets the consumer needs and economic conditions of the market.  In this case, there should also be another consideration.  Harvard Broadcasting has long wanted to address the imbalance that exists in the province in terms of ownership and opportunity, and Saskatoon represents the best and perhaps the only chance to do that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15948             We operate in a province where 27 of 33 stations are owned by Rawlco and Goldenwest and, in combination, they are a formidable opponent.  Well, I think we can safely argue they are based on numbers of stations that arguments based on the numbers of stations owned or stations per capita have been dismissed in this hearing.  Size does matter when it comes to negotiating advertising buys.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15949             And so we ask the Commission to consider the reason behind all of our recent applications; the need to develop critical mass when deciding whether we should be licensed and ask you to consider this.  We know the Saskatoon market.  We know that the station in the market will provide us with access to regional advertising buys that we do not now get.  It offers synergies with our Regina service that will benefit both operations.  By giving us access to the largest market in the province, it corrects an imbalance and gives us the necessary resources to serve both markets.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15950             We hope that Saskatchewan star is on the rise as so many sources seem to indicate.  Saskatoon is leading in the growth in the province and, by all accounts, it will continues as long as this turn around goes on.  We ask the Commission to allow us to participate in as much anticipated recovery by granting us this licence.  We have survived the bad years and we look forward to celebrating the good ones by creating new listening opportunities in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15951             Thank you very much for your time and attention.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15952             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15953             Yes, we will be taking 15 minute break.  By my watch it is 10 to 10, so we will reconvene at 5 after 10.

‑‑‑ Recess at 0950 / Suspension à 0950

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1005 / Reprise à 1005

LISTNUM 95 \l 15954             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary...?

LISTNUM 95 \l 15955             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15956             We will now proceed with item 19 on the agenda, which is an application by Standard Radio Inc. for a licence to operate an English language commercial FM radio programming undertaking in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15957             The new station would operate on frequency 96.3 megahertz, channel 242 C 1 with an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts nondirectional antenna, antenna height of 179.1 meters.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15958             Appearing for the Applicant is Ms Sharon Taylor, who will introduce her colleagues and you will have 20 minutes for your presentation.  Ms Taylor...?

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 95 \l 15959             MS TAYLOR:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15960             Good morning, Chair Cram, members of the Commission, staff.  My name is Sharon Taylor.  I am the Vice‑President and General Manager of Standard Radio Stations in Manitoba, which include two FM radio stations in Winnipeg and two FM radio stations in Brandon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15961             Before we begin I would like to introduce you to the members of our team, which has changed slightly since you saw us for the Regina application.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15962             To my right, Diane Morris, Standards Radio Manager of Finances for Western Canada.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15963             To my left, Norine Mitchell, our Retail Sales Manager in Brandon

LISTNUM 95 \l 15964             To Norine's left is Brian Depoe.  Brian is the Vice‑President of Adult Contemporary Programming for Standard Broadcasting.  Brian has 13 years experience programming the format, is a leading expert in Canada, and is the Program Director for a flagship EZ Rock station in Toronto, one of Canada's most successful radio stations.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15965             And as an aside I think it was Brian who said he came for a CRTC hearing and a CWC convention broke out.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15966             Directly behind me is Leah Singleton, one of our Department Heads in Winnipeg,  and the Traffic Manager for our Manitoba cluster.  Leah is our Aboriginal Advisor on this application.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15967             To Leah's right is Betty Selin, Regional News Director for Standard Radio based in Vernon, BC.  Betty is the recent winner of the Jack Webster Fellowship.  She has also won BC RTNDA awards  last year for best small market newscast.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15968             To Leah's left is Janet Lazaris, Principal of the Research Strategy Group in Toronto. Janet handled our research.  This is our standard team.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15969             We're very pleased to be here today to apply for a current based soft adult contemporary radio station for Saskatoon.  Our radio station will place a strong emphasis on current music and new and emerging Canadian talent.  We will refer to this station as EZ Rock, which is our very successful brand for the format.

 

LISTNUM 95 \l 15970             At this point I had planned to outline for you the economic indicators proving that Saskatoon is enjoying a robust and growing economy and is healthy enough to withstand another broadcaster.  However, over the last couple of days and during the four phases of the Regina hearings, all of the applicants have discussed the strength of the economy in the Province at length.  The intervenors have discussed the lack of strength in the economy at length.  And the Commission has sifted through what I can only imagine is countless statistics that seemingly represent both points of view.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15971             Our journey a couple of hours up the road to Saskatoon will change the point of view of some of the parties that you hear from today, but not ours.  While Saskatoon and Regina are two very distinct cities which enjoy a healthy rivalry, we believe it's a great time to be doing business in either of them, or better yet, both.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15972             One of the trades that differentiate Saskatoon from Regina is the incredible biotechnology industry here.  In fact, the biotechnology industry might, in fact, best symbolize the diversification that Saskatoon has achieved.  By combining its historical ag roots with cutting edge technology, this city's biotechnology industry has grown with strength and with speed.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15973             Saskatoon is currently recognized as one of the top biotechnology centers in the world, attracting over 30 percent of all research spending in Canada.  Saskatoon has also proved to be a terrific location for information technology companies.  Over 70 information technology companies have head offices in Saskatoon, providing a variety of services including programming, software, systems integration, data processing, information retrieval, maintenance and repair, to a wide range of market sectors in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15974             Mining is an important industry in the region.  Exploration and mining remain ongoing for potash, uranium, gold and diamonds.  The region has almost two thirds of the world's recoverable potash reserves, and is the world's largest exporter of uranium.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15975             Saskatoon is also, as you've heard, a vibrant university town, where music and the arts not only live, but thrive.  The music in Saskatoon ‑‑ the music community in Saskatoon is loud and proud, a fact that I'm certain was not overlooked when it was announced that the Juno Awards would originate from Saskatoon next year.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15976             It is an exciting time to be living and doing business in this city.  We are somewhat relieved that today there will be more groups in front of you agreeing with us on this point than arguing it.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15977             Standard Radio is a family owned and operated business and a leading Canadian broadcast company with a well‑known track record of serving the community, and the Canadian music industry.  With 51 radio stations in seven provinces in markets small, medium and large, we do truly understand the importance of local radio service.  While some of our radio stations are in major markets like Vancouver and Toronto, perhaps overlooked is that standard is very much western broadcaster with the majority of our radio stations, 34 in total, located in the west.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15978             In Manitoba I'm particularly proud of what Standard Radio has accomplished.  In Winnipeg alone we raised half a million dollars last year over just three days for our local children's hospital.  That of course is an addition to our enormous catalogue of community endeavours.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15979             For example, this past March our Program Director at Hot 103 in Winnipeg challenged each of his announcers to visit a different school every day during reading month and read to kids.  Teachers in our community love us and we support them in every way we can.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15980             Standard Radio operates in every size market there is in Canada and we will put our efforts to passionately and effectively serve our listeners, our clients, and our community up against anyone else's regardless of market size.  In preparing our application, Standard listened to the needs expressed by many members of the Saskatoon community.  We closely analyzed the Saskatoon economy and we commissioned research to accurately pinpoint what is currently missing and desired by members of this vibrant prairie community. To highlight our research findings, Janet Lazaris.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15981             MS LAZARIS:  The purpose of our study was to help Standard Radio identify the most appropriate format for its plans to serve the Saskatoon radio market.  First our study showed that there is a viable business opportunity for two formats in Saskatoon, a modern rock station and a Soft AC format.  Both would attract a significant audience, but with a very distinct profile.  The rock station would skew towards younger men, while the Soft AC format would appeal largely to women, age 35 and over.  Of the two formats, Standard chose the Soft AC option for the following reasons:

LISTNUM 95 \l 15982             First current base Soft AC would draw a large and saleable audience.  In our research 52 percent of adults indicated that they would be either very likely or somewhat likely to turn to the easy rock format.  Five percent indicated that this type of station would become the favourite station, and 17 percent said that it would become their second choice station.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15983             Based on the favourite station response, we would project that a Soft AC format has the potential to gain a five percent share of listening among adults 18 plus in Saskatoon. Among women age 25 to 54, the potential share rises to six percent.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15984             Second, a current base Soft AC station would add diversity to the market. Among those who indicated that a Soft AC format would be their favourite, 70 percent felt that there is no local station that consistently plays the kind of music that suites their taste.  This dissatisfaction is further reflected in the fact that many potential core listeners to the format, that's the Soft AC format, are tuning to satellite signals, internet radio and digital music channels like Max Trax.  Forty percent of adults report listening to one or more of the nontraditional delivery methods in the past week.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15985             All in all the research indicates that Standard Soft AC format would be viable and would add a degree of diversity that would strengthen the local radio market.  Additionally, while modern rock scored higher in our research, it was also clear that a new modern rock station would attract 40 percent of its audience from the existing station CJCJ Rock 102.  Soft AC, on the other hand, would attract a fraction of that from across all of the existing stations resulting in less audience disruption to the incumbents.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15986             MS TAYLOR:  EZ Rock Saskatoon will feature artists that generally don't get air play in the city, featuring not only many of the Canadian artists that Standard Radio has supported across the country for the past several years, but new and emerging artists whose music perfectly suits this current based format.  To further illustrate, we have prepared a brief audio presentation for you.

‑‑‑ Audio clip / Clip audio

LISTNUM 95 \l 15987             MR. DEPOE:  We are proposing a current based Soft AC radio service predominantly consisting of newer vocal music featuring artists such as Sarah McLaughlin, Corinne Bailey‑Rae, James Blunt and Kelly Clarkson, as well as emerging Canadian artists such as Amanda Stott and Keisha Chante.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15988             The key difference from what's available in the market now is that we propose to play roughly 60 percent new music.  CJFK, the adult contemporary station in Saskatoon plays over 90 percent gold music, meaning very limited play for new and emerging artists, particularly Canadians. This mimics an often‑seen pattern in underserved markets.  Stations have to work harder at being all things to all people, and in doing so, become broad, unfocussed, oldies based, and unable to serve the need our research exposed for new music in the market.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15989             The EZ Rock format is a female‑focused mainstream format that enjoys success in numerous Canadian markets, owing to its commitment to family values, new music, serving the needs of the females and its target audience, and adhering to its strong brand principles.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15990             EZ Rock is one of the most consistent and steadily growing formats in Canada.  Because of the seamless blend of long established artists, together with emerging Canadian and international artists, EZ Rock Toronto and other EZ Rock stations are consistently strong performers in the markets they serve.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15991             The current based Soft AC format we propose has little duplication with current Saskatoon operations.  The EZ Rock play list includes established artists such as Elton John, Lionel Richie and Fleetwood Mac that currently have some air play in Saskatoon, but also prominently features emerging Canadian artists such as Ron Sexsmith, Keisha Chante, Matt Dusk and Tommie Swick, who don't receive enough exposure in the market, particularly with the target audience we seek to serve.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15992             The EZ Rock format is more adventurous than most traditional AC stations. EZ Rock Edmonton, for example, was the first AC station in Canada to add James Blunt's "You're Beautiful" into regular rotation, as well as the very first AC station to play Vernon, BC native, Daniel Powter's megahit "Bad Day."

LISTNUM 95 \l 15993             EZ Rock is the perfect venue to showcase and establish emerging Canadian artists.  Over the past few years we have introduced Hip Joint, Lakota Sun, Feist, Shaye, David Usher and Kayle to our audience, to name just a few.  We've also provided many new artists with an opportunity to showcase their talents with our exclusive Loyal Listener Club Performances where we invite an audience of listeners, provide a venue, serve food and refreshments, and let the Canadian newcomer perform, all at no cost to the artist.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15994             Standard Radio also compares play lists with other like‑formatted stations in our company, so if an artist is successful in Saskatoon, we can provide the opportunity to take his or her exposure from a regional to a national level.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15995             With this proactive approach to nurturing and exposing Canadian talent and our commitment to established Canadian Superstars,  reaching and maintaining 40 percent Canadian content in this format, including 40 percent 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. Monday to Friday, is very manageable.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15996             The EZ rock format is unique and what we call family friendly.  It's a format that especially appeals to women and families and allows them to enjoy the station without the worry of being embarrassed or offended by lyrics or verbal content.  We are very proud to offer Saskatoon its first family friendly radio station. This is the EZ Rock family friendly pledge that will be at the core of our new radio station.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15997             At EZ Rock we want you to feel safe when you're listening with your kids. That's why we promise never to say anything that would embarrass you or make you feel uncomfortable with your family present, in fact, we guarantee it.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15998             MS TAYLOR:  I'd like to switch gears and have Norine Mitchell share with you some of the details of our sales plans for EZ Rock Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 15999             MS MITCHELL:  Thanks, Sharon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16000             Retail spending, population growth, building permits, and new business licences in Saskatoon show steady increases year over year with a projected GDP growth 3.8 percent in 2006.  Personal disposable incomes have been rising steadily since 2001, which supports a positive rise in retail spending.  The reduction of the PST by two points will also have an immediate and positive impact on the local retail business.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16001             When considering whether Saskatoon can support another radio station, we believe that all the positive key economic indicators are there.  I was pleased to see that Wal‑Mart is planning a 50,000 square foot expansion for their existing location, plus adding another new store in Saskatoon in 2007.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16002             Home Depot is planning a new store and tenders have just been closed on a new 31 acre retail site at the Blairmore suburban development area.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16003             Local advertisers such as Wheaton Chevrolet express support for our application, and quoting their intervention letter, "The Standard Radio organization will offer a respected professional diversified alternative to the local landscape."

LISTNUM 95 \l 16004             Beilley's Bar and Grill, one of Saskatoon's largest restaurants and night spots was adamant about having another radio station represented in Saskatoon as he felt competition is needed to make this market competitively fair and healthy.  The owner of the Midas Muffler franchise in Saskatoon stated in his intervention that, "Standard Radio Incorporated's proposed radio station would fill the void presently existing in the Saskatoon market for a soft adult contemporary FM radio station."

LISTNUM 95 \l 16005             After discussing the potential addition of Standards EZ Rock format to the Saskatoon radio landscape, with key local advertisers, I am very confident that this radio station will be met with support not just from listeners, but also the business community and local retailers.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16006             A unique format that appeals to women and families as well as the business diversity, that a national company such as Standard Radio offers will be welcomed. Our revenue projections are conservative, realistic, and quite achievable in Saskatoon.  With Standard's financial and programming strength and expertise, we plan on working closely with our advertisers and the community to provide exactly what Saskatoon has asked for, a new, diverse voice to support this rapidly growing economy.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16007             MS SELIN:  Madam Chair, we believe this application offers a unique news component, in part due to the resources we will have in the region and across the country.  Our strength is our commitment to reflect the community of Saskatoon and surrounding area and to bring a new independent editorial voice to the region. Our team will focus on local news.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16008             But one of our other advantages is the strength of the Standard Radio news centres across the country.  Wherever news happens in Canada, we have access to Standard's award winning network of news rooms, including those on the Prairies and in Ontario.  When news breaks, we will have access to sources no one else has.  Conversely, we're excited to add our stable of news rooms, a Saskatoon bureau allowing us to bring the news, issues and events of this community to a national stage in the same way.  This will truly be a new editorial voice in the community.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16009             There will be 45 news casts Monday to Friday, as well as locally produced news and public affairs programming featuring content relevant to our audience. We know how important features like road conditions and weather reports are to listeners in a region that can experience severe weather, and we plan to ensure that our listeners are well informed.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16010             EZ Rock will have an advantage during major events like National elections, budgets or any major government announcements.  Our newsrooms will have the ability to link up with our Standard Radio news centres, bringing news from the source directly to our listeners.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16011             Our news policies reflect our commitment to diversity and local reflection. Our proven track record to serve our audience will keep our listeners in the Saskatoon area connected to the community and well informed.  This application also offers a unique opportunity with our Sunday morning news magazine program to give an outlet to many groups in the community who currently don't have a voice.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16012             To further explain the Sunday morning news magazine and its impact on the community, Leah Singleton.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16013             MS SINGLETON:  I discussed our Sunday News Magazine with many Saskatoon organizations, including The Aboriginal Friendship Centre, The Saskatchewan Indian Cultural Centre and White Buffalo Youth Lodge, just to name a few.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16014             Saskatoon has the largest Aboriginal population per capita of any city in Canada, and we want to help build bridges, not only within the Aboriginal community, but the community in general through access to our EZ Rock station.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16015             As I mentioned Tuesday, it is estimated that by 2050 half of Saskatchewan's population will be Aboriginal.  Today it's 17 percent.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16016             Our Sunday Morning News Magazine will cover issues that relate to all Aboriginal people in the Saskatoon region.  Voting procedures for local Band councils, decisions on the latest developments for survivors of residential schools, language classes and native youth programs, such as the youth leadership and employment.  These are just some of the examples of discussions you will hear on our weekly news program.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16017             We will also utilize our partnership with Aboriginal Voices Radio to share any of their relevant programming with our audience.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16018             As part of our Canadian Talent Development program we will recruit and train Aboriginal stringers hoping to enter broadcasting.  These paid interns will produce programming for our news magazine, pitch story ideas and be out in the community reporting on events.  The annual commitment for this program is $15,000.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16019             We will also create a $10,000 bursary program for students at the First Nations University ‑ Saskatoon campus.  The university's  Indian Communication Arts (INCA) certificate program prepares students to work as journalists.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16020             We have also earmarked $10,000 to create a scholarship program for Aboriginal students interested in attending one of Western Canada's leading post‑secondary schools in a full‑time broadcasting program.  With so many Aboriginal young people poised to enter the workforce here in Saskatchewan, we want to do our part to attract them to a career in broadcasting where their voices need to be heard.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16021             MR. DEPOE:  Other Canadian Talent Development programs will include an annual EZ  Rock Talent Search, much like the Canadian Idol phenomena, where the winner would record a demo sampler at a leading Canadian recording studio.  Each year $30,000 will be devoted to this important initiative of which there will be a cash prize of $10,000 and a special showcase to introduce our winner to influential people in the music business.  Standard will fully pay for the production of CDs and a professional bio package.  The program further underscores our commitment to developing Canadian talent and promoting home‑grown music.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16022             Standard will also direct $15,000 per year toward the Saskatchewan Recording Industry Association or SaskMusic, as it's now known.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16023             And we've also created a fund that will support Canadians who are members of the four designated groups ‑‑ women, Aboriginals, disabled  persons, and visible minorities.  Musicians, songwriters and performers will be eligible to participate in this program, which will assist them with their music career. Standard is committing an annual $10,000 contribution to this initiative.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16024             There will be a donation to FACTOR of $5,000 per year, as well we will direct $5,000 annually to Canadian Music Week.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16025             MS TAYLOR:  In total, Standard has proposed significant benefits for the development of Canadian talent in the amount of $100,000 per year or $700,000 in cash over the seven‑year licence term.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16026             Our Canadian Talent Development program also includes three non‑cash benefit programs.  These include Standard's well‑known national free ad plan, which runs commercials promoting new Canadian CDs ‑ Standard Cares, our national program assisting local children's hospitals, and our national public service announcement program, which has every Standard Radio station airing public service announcements every hour.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16027             With our $875,000 of in kind programs, our total Canadian Talent Development package is over one million dollars over the term of the licence, a million five.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16028             Standard Radio's commitment to the local community is consistent throughout the entire company.  Last year alone Standard raised a total of over seven million dollars across Canada to assist local hospitals in each of the markets we serve.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16029             In summary, we have presented what we consider to be a well thought out and strong application for an EZ Rock radio station in Saskatoon.  The key highlights of our application are:

‑ A current base Soft AC format that is in demand, but not available in Saskatoon.

‑ A new independent editorial voice with a national platform.

‑ 40 percent Canadian content, including 40 percent Canadian content from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. Monday to Friday.

‑ A Canadian Talent Development benefits package of over $700,000 in cash, and $875,000 in kind.

‑ 20 new jobs and almost 10 million in investment over the term of the licence.

‑ A partnership with Aboriginal Voices Radio that will be part of our news and magazine coverage to the area

‑ a realistic and achievable business plan.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16030             We feel our application brings diversity with an exclusive format ‑ EZ Rock ‑ and a new editorial voice that are highly complimentary to Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16031             That concludes our presentation, and we appreciate the opportunity to answer any of your questions.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16032             Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16033             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Vice‑Chair Arpin...?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16034             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16035             Just to ‑‑ as before turning to any discussions, I have gone through the CTV list that you put down this morning, and they are similar to the one that we have in the application, you agree?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16036             MS TAYLOR:  Thank goodness.  That is correct.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16037             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16038             We will now start discussing the format, and its application for, say for the Saskatoon market.  And as ‑‑ my first question will be the one that I have been asking a lot of people, what's got to be the major age of your listener in Saskatoon?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16039             MS TAYLOR:  I will ask Brian Depoe to speak to our demographics.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16040             MR. DEPOE:  We anticipate the medium age of our listening audience to be about 41 years, skewed about 55 percent towards females over males.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16041             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Okay, thank you.  I'm writing it down.  As you probably are aware,  because you surely did spend some time in the market.  As CJMK appears to target a very similar adult audience and which is ‑‑ with an AC format.  The BBM day life showing that they have somewhere between a 12 to a 13 share, at least a 12 plus, and that they surely are aiming in the 35‑64 age group. Could you tell me what's going to be the main differences between your Soft AC and CJMK?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16042             MS TAYLOR:  Again, I will ask Brian to give you his comments on that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16043             MR. DEPOE:  The primary difference between ourselves and CJMK would ‑‑ first of all, CJMK programs 90 to 95 percent gold music.  There's very little exposure for current artists or current music, particularly new and emerging Canadian talent on CJMK.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16044             The proposal we're putting forth for EZ Rock Saskatoon would be 60 percent current music with an emphasis on new and emerging Canadian talent.  What comes back to us time and again in the many markets we program the EZ Rock format with the women and the families we seek to serve is, listen, we're not dead yet.  We still want to hear new music, we still want to be in touch with what's going on today, but we want this music presented in an environment that's safe and friendly.  And that's the format and the kind of radio station we're putting forward that does not currently exist in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16045             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  I heard you in your oral presentation saying that exactly ‑‑ almost using the same words, that you will never say anything that will embarrass you, you being the CRTC or being the listener?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16046             MR. DEPOE:  Well, we certainly don't want to embarrass the CRTC ever.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 95 \l 16047             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And what do you really mean by that?  Do you sensor your programming staff, what do you really mean by making sure that the comments that they're making is ‑‑ are totally ‑‑ again, back to that they will never embarrass anybody and make anybody feel uncomfortable?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16048             MR. DEPOE:  The essence of EZ Rock brand has been reverse engineered from conversations with the target we seek to serve, which is women and families.  And what came back to us time and again, and I don't know if you've had the experience recently as I have, if you're driving along in your minivan with your nine‑year‑old and something comes on the radio you can't explain, you don't want to be taken by surprise because you didn't have the opportunity to steer that inputted information to that little person.  And the EZ Rock environment and EZ Rock brand is oriented towards no surprises for women and their families.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16049             So it's not so much a question of censoring people or shackling them, if you will, or not making them able to say things, it's how things are presented. And we just ‑‑ it is a no surprises environment for women and families, nothing inappropriate.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16050             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  It also applies in selecting the music?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16051             MR. DEPOE:  Yes, it does apply in selecting music.  Fortunately the great majority of what we have to choose from is never even an issue. So it's very, very seldom that we have to, you know, not use a musical selection because it's something inappropriate. It just doesn't come to us in this format.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16052             MS TAYLOR:  I would like to just add one comment to that, if I may.  It's not untypical when you have a group of people inside your radio station who are passionately motivated to serve the audience that the radio station is targeting.  They become in tune with the life group, they become in tune with what's going on.  Of course, all the announcers that work at our EZ Rock stations understand that at the very core of our programming is this family friendly pledge.  They also, by virtue of doing a good job, have to immerse themselves in what's going on in the lives of the audience of our core audience.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16053             To follow up on what Brian said, it really just flows from that.  They understand, they do their best to present stuff that's interesting.  It doesn't have to mean boring, it simply is family friendly.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16054             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  I will say, more than likely that your programming staff will be also of the same age group, than the audience that you're trying to serve?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16055             MS TAYLOR:  In most cases, yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16056             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  In most cases.  So they have already had their training years through other formats, maybe, or through other ‑‑ they have the needed experience to say what they have to say.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16057             MR. DEPOE:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16058             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  There are two other applicants in this hearing.  One is Pattison, and the other one is CJVR that are proposing formats of the same nature.  Could you comment on their proposal and tell me what are the key differences between your application and theirs?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16059             MS TAYLOR:  There are some very key differences musically, and I will have Brian again fill you in on those.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16060             MR. DEPOE:  Having reviewed the other applications, it's very clear that neither of them is proposing the amount of current based music that we are.  And clearly, what our research exposed, particularly through the adult female audience we seek to serve, is there's just not an outlet for them to hear a blend of some of their favourite songs, but also to hear a lot of the new music that they would like to hear to keep them in touch with what's going on today.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16061             So both of the other applications, to the best of my knowledge, from what I have learned from analysing them, are gold based entirely and would more or less more closely duplicate what's currently available in the market, whereas we propose something that is an alternative to what's available in the market.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16062             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And earlier this morning we heard Harvard, which is presenting a rock ‑‑ a more modern rock radio format.  In your oral presentation you said that it is a format that you also look at for Saskatoon, but you choose Soft AC.  Could you elaborate on your choice?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16063             MS TAYLOR:  I may ask Janet to fill in some of the gaps on the research for you.  First of all, modern rock as we researched it, there was a hole for that ‑‑ for that format.  I'm not sure that the format that Harvard is putting on the table is exactly the same as the modern rock format that we researched.  There seems to be a little broader, a little bit more of, perhaps, CHR with rock and alternative.  We were ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 16064             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And probably more younger than what you will have come up with.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16065             MS TAYLOR:  It seemed that way to me.  Yes, it seemed that way to me.  Well, I'll ask Janet to talk about our research and what it told us.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16066             MS LAZARIS:  Now, I wasn't responsible for the decision of the format Standard is applying for, but from the perspective of the research I would think that the primary rationales were one, the modern rock format would, according to the research, do quite a bit of harm to the incumbent rock station.  Also, on ‑‑ from another perspective, the target demographic of the Soft AC is much more appealing to a broader variety of advertisers simply because the population base in the age demographic is much larger, and it's also much more affluent.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16067             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Well, we move now to talk about spoken word and local reflection.  Thank you, Mr. Depot, you may have to come back to clarify the views of the EZ Rock.  Obviously the Commission is quite knowledgeable of the EZ Rock format since you have numerous radio stations, one of them being your Toronto flagship station, so that we have a very good understanding that ‑‑ of the format.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16068             In the application I'm drawing your attention to page 13 of your supplementary brief, and under the heading "Addition of a New Voice in Saskatoon," you said approval of your application will provide an opportunity to improve the diversity of an editorial voice in the region and in Saskatoon. You go on to characterize approval of your application as being a significant benefit to the Saskatoon listener.  Can you elaborate on the statements, please, and specifically as they relate to news and the provision of relevant local reflection programming?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16069             MS TAYLOR:  I'll ask Betty Selin to respond to that for you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16070             MS SELIN:  Thank you, Sharon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16071             As I mentioned a couple of days ago, one of the things we think makes it unique is that there are only two broadcasters currently, and just the fact that we would bring that third editorial voice, and the fact we have in markets like Toronto and Ottawa, Standard Radio stations.  You know, our CFRB station constantly wins awards for their programming, and we just have the ability through the software that we would have in our newsroom here, the ability to be able to access the stories that we could share with the audience here when it's relevant.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16072             Of course, our mandate in operations of this size is that our news would focus on local and this would be a local stand‑alone newsroom, but we would have the access to those other resources.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16073             When it comes to local reflection, we actually spent quite a bit time in the market talking to some local groups, and wanting to hear their concerns about how they feel they're being heard in the community.  Many of these groups certainly welcomed our proposal for our Sunday News Magazine format show because they don't feel that their voice is being heard, and certainly that their community is being reflected in a positive way.  Most of the stories, they feel, is certainly about ‑‑ they come from the Aboriginal community are not necessarily positive and, so in a news magazine format show you have an opportunity to give both sides to a story even though it's not a talk show format, it's a prerecorded interview kind of format show.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16074             So we feel that that's an opportunity to really reflect a segment of this community that they feel is currently not being heard on mainstream radio.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16075             MS TAYLOR:  The fact that Standard Radio has this National platform of newsrooms that we could draw on should there be a National breaking story in the Nation's capital or in British Columbia, I would like to also point out that we believe that the reverse is true as well.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16076             Standard Radio currently, as you are aware, does not have a radio station in Saskatchewan.  The ability to have a news centre here that can feed our other news centers across the country is one ‑‑ it will work both ways.  There is lots going on here, and when the story permits it will be something that would be shared with the other newsrooms.  Whether or not they feel it is a value to their listening audiences of theirs to determine, but I just wanted to point out that not only can we draw from across the country and bring that information directly from the source in here, but the reverse is true.  The issues that are going on here in Saskatchewan will be fed to our other newsrooms for them to use as they see fit.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16077             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Madam Taylor, you are the operator of the Winnipeg stations, and you also supervise Brandon. And based on your own experience, on a weekly basis and in percentage terms, what are you taking from the Standard Radio news centre versus what you are doing locally, on an average?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16078             MS TAYLOR:  That's a good question.  I wish I had thought of asking our News Directors that before I left.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16079             MS SELIN:  Perhaps, Sharon, I could add to that, although, I mean, my experience is British Columbia based.  It's not that often.  It's on the big story.  It's on the big story, like I explained the other day, when the rest of the broadcasters are, generally speaking, using broadcast news, and don't get me wrong, I love broadcast news, I would hate to give them up, they're a fabulous resource. But most of us on those kinds of big stories have to use broadcast news.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16080             In Standard Radio news stations because of the technology we have, they feed us their reporter on the scene.  I mean, the Montreal example is a perfect example of how that was unique.  They have the same story, but maybe they have a different source, they have a different eyewitness, and so if you're flipping back and forth between a Standard station and another station, you're going to hear just a slightly different perspective on the same story, which we think is unique and, of course, brings, you know, a third editorial voice.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16081             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Does Standard Radio news have correspondence outside Canada?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16082             MS SELIN:  No, we do not, but one of the things that Standard Radio is able to do, for example, during an election, we have a reporter on the bus with at least the two major parties, and for a section of the election someone with a third party, so that we actually have those direct reporters.  We can call them up on our talk shows.  We have complete access to them, so that's another big advantage that we have during those kinds of national stories.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16083             MR. DEPOE:  And in addition, while we don't have people stationed all over the world on a full‑time basis, we very often do send reporters to cover major stories and major events.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16084             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  But do you have a regular source of International news that you  are subscribing to some foreign service or do you rely through the Internet or you have somebody sit and watch CNN?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16085             MS SELIN:  Most of our International news would be, unfortunately like the rest of the broadcasters from broadcast news just because of the resources that that requires. However, if it is a major story, certainly a story like 911, CFRB sent people to New York and therefore we have access to those reporters in those emergency situations.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16086             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Could we speak a bit about The Sunday Morning News Magazine?  I think you've alluded to it earlier, but you know that there will be a component coming from AVR and could we ‑‑ without going into as many details as we went the other day, could we have ‑‑ will it be different in Saskatoon than what you're planning to do in Regina or is it the same ‑‑ is it the same program or is it a similar type of program?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16087             MS SELIN:  No, actually the program would be unique to Saskatoon.  There are different groups within the community, I mean, the Aboriginal Friendship Centre here, the Cultural Centre we spoke to, The White Buffalo Youth Lodge, The Metis Women's Association, all of them are already on board wanting to be regular contributors to the program because they want to get the message to the local community.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16088             Now, if there's a province‑wide story, probably that would air on both stations.  And just to maybe further explain a little bit about how we would use Aboriginal Voices Radio, it's much how we would use the Standard Radio news centers across the country.  Really the focus of the program will be local, but when there is a need or a great National story, they have more resources than us to do that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16089             And so if they have a really interesting program that what we think would be of value to our listeners in Saskatoon or should we be so lucky to be in Regina as well, that that's when we would use AVR.  Certainly not on an ongoing weekly basis, but more of when the story warrants it, when there is a National story that would be of interest, but we really see the Sunday Morning News Magazine as a reflection of what is happening in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16090             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  If I understand very well, what you're going to be doing with AVR is you're going to get a half an hour segment coming from them on a weekly basis prepackaged by them, so it will be not only of a Saskatoon nature, but of a Nation‑wide nature; am I right?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16091             MS SELIN:  That's right. And that's when we would use them is when there is a component of their programming that we feel would be of interest to our listeners in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16092             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Oh, I see.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16093             So you will access AVR programming only when ‑‑ because my understanding was that the agreement was to get a half an hour weekly feature that you called ‑‑ you were to introduce in your Sunday News Magazine.  Now, am I hearing you well when you say it's ‑‑ you may do it or only if it is of relevance for Saskatoon or ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 16094             MS SELIN:  Yes, that's correct.  I mean, there is no real need to air a program that doesn't affect the Saskatoon market, right.  So my concept of this program is that the focus would be local, but clearly there are National issues that would impact the local listener, and so that would be a weekly decision made by the news director in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16095             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  So the agreement is that for them to produce for you a half an hour feature ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 16096             MS SELIN:  They wouldn't be producing something unique for us, we would have access to their already produced programming that we would be able to carry when appropriate. Am I making sense?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16097             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  It makes sense, but it means that you're going to need to have some staff listening to AVR to make the determination that this segment is of relevance and this one is not.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16098             So it means that you're going to have staff somewhere and ‑‑ well, obviously if it's got to be in Saskatoon, the AVR station has to be on air as well in Saskatoon otherwise you can always get it from Calgary or Edmonton or Toronto, but somebody will have to be listening to AVR to make sure that it has some relevancy for your ‑‑ for Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16099             MS SELIN:  That's where a relationship with our News Director and people at AVR will be very important.  Most of the other resources that we use in our stations across the country when we access programming, we certainly know what's available every week and so, I mean, that will be probably a weekly conversation saying what are your ‑‑ what are your program highlights this week and then a determination made to say, this is a great show, we want to take this show.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16100             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And if you do take a segment, you understand that obviously this segment will not count as being local, because you said in your ‑‑ you're saying in your application you're going to be 100 percent local, but that segment will not be necessarily local.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16101             MS SELIN:  Correct. And that's ‑‑ it's sort of difficult to nail it down because we really want this program to be a local reflection, but we also want the ability to be able to inform our listeners of an important national issue within the Aboriginal community.  So that's a balance that we're obviously going to have to pay very close attention to.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16102             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Can I keep you, again, back on your ‑‑ the page 13 of your supplementary brief, and I will ask you also to enlarge on the two following quotes that I found, which you are saying the station will be designed to depend, in a large part, on interactive and public involvement to cover the daily news, and you go on to state that your news will be different because it will rely on actively involving the public and encourage listeners in the communities and will serve to help drive local reflections.  Could you enlarge on that topic and say how it's going to really work?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16103             MS SELIN:  Absolutely. The mandate of all of our Standard Radio news people, particularly in our smaller markets is to really get known in the community, to be at those meetings, to attend those council meetings, to be at the school board meetings, to make contacts within the community because we all know the reporters with the best contact list get the best stories. And so that's one way that we will do it is actually attending those functions, being out there as well as being on the phone every day.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16104             We also have opportunities through encouraging our listeners to call our newsroom with their news tip, and now we have, of course, a new way where they can e‑mail us, and we have, you know, through our website that we will have for this radio station, another opportunity for people to be able to send us their ideas, their suggestions, that kind of thing.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16105             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  We will now move to the other spoken word, the component of your programming grid.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16106             Other than the three hours of news and weather and sports that you have provided in your grid, could you tell me more about what is going to be the other components of your ‑‑ and obviously we have already covered the Sunday News Magazine, but the other features, other components of your spoken word?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16107             MS SELIN:  Certainly. And just to clarify that, the three hours of our news and sports package.  Our weather is over and above that, another two hours and two minutes, and then our road and traffic reports above that, another 45 minutes.  And then when you include the Sunday News Magazine, it's a total of six hours and 43 minutes that would be provided by the newsroom, and then the remainder will be features and that type of thing provided by the Programming Department, and I believe Brian Depoe would like to speak to that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16108             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  You seem to have a chart like probably the one you've produced this  morning for Regina.  Could we ask you to file it at some point during this proceeding?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16109             MS SELIN:  Absolutely. We have that prepared for you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16110             MR. DEPOE:  And in addition to what Betty was talking about, we're proposing to produce local top 20 countdown, which will air twice on weekends.  We also have a prerecorded daily feature called Community Counts, which again is aimed at the women and families in our target, highlighting various events being run by charitable community organizations.  There's also the EZ Rock family fun guide, which is an entertainment and event feature that focuses on events, places with activities of interest to families.  And then Saturday nights we have a fun show called Studio 96, which is just a place for people to sort of let their hair down and relax and have a little fun.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16111             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  My next question may get us back somewhere close to format discussions, not only spoken word, but obviously you mentioned that Saskatoon is probably having the most ‑‑ is probably Canada ‑‑ major urban city that has the most Aboriginal people, mainly First Nations people.  And how do you think the EZ Rock format will cater to the need of those listeners, and particularly looking forward when you were saying that Saskatchewan is moving from 17 percent Aboriginals towards eventually be 50 percent of the population.  And how do you think that your format fits with the needs of the Aboriginals, and particularly those in Saskatoon?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16112             MR. DEPOE:  I think one of the aspects of our Canadian Talent Development promise would be the first way that I would field that question.  The Aboriginal community would be one of the four groups that we would target with our $10,000 fund that targets women, Aboriginals, disabled persons and visible minorities.  We want to get those people involved in our radio station and get involved in the business that we're in, which is the music and radio and performing business. Any radio station that is going to take a place in this community would certainly understand its role in terms of reaching out to the members of the community and making the radio station relevant, otherwise they're not going to be successful.  You know, part of the ambition of EZ Rock as family friendly radio station, and that's a value that resinates with any community irrespective of ethnicity or origin.  We think the EZ Rock brand will be relevant to the Aboriginal community, particularly because of some of the other initiatives and community service aspects that are built into our proposal.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16113             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  One of your CTD incentives is the allocation of $15,000 for stringers for the Aboriginal and First Nation communities to provide content for this program.  Should the stringer incentive be deemed ineligible for CTD under current guidelines, will you still maintain this weekly magazine program?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16114             MS TAYLOR:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16115             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And you still commit, I think, to spending the $15,000 even if the Commission was to come to the conclusion that it wasn't CTD?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16116             MS TAYLOR:  Yes, correct. I would like to comment on that just briefly though.  I understand that, as well, our commitment to the ‑‑ to the scholarships for Aboriginal students in broadcasting would be something that you would reflect on as well and guide us on whether that would be considered Canadian talent development.  If there ever was a hearing or a market where we feel that this is important to reflect on, it is this one.  It's not just ‑‑ we really need to do our part, I feel, as an industry to do everything we can to attract Aboriginal people to this industry.  They need to be sitting on this side of the microphone, their voices need to be heard, not just in news stories, not just in magazine programs as part of the story, but we really need to do whatever we can to attract these people to the industry.  Of course that's true, I believe in Saskatchewan, of any business that you're in, but it follows suit that it's also very true for us that we need to do what we can to get young people interested in entering broadcasting.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16117             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16118             On page 2 of your supplementary brief, you allude to available programming synergies with other Standard stations in the areas of local reflection as well as  regional, national, and you state further that approval of your application will allow Standard to draw on our expertise from other EZ Rock stations in the chain creating more opportunities for synergy.  Could you be more specific as to the times of programming synergies that you are referring to?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16119             MS TAYLOR:  Certainly. We have a number of EZ Rock stations already within our chain, so I'll ask Brian to speak to how they work together.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16120             MR. DEPOE:  We're always researching the EZ Rock brand and EZ Rock music and EZ Rock core values in all the communities that we do business, and we're always learning things, and you can learn things in any market that you can put to use in other markets.  The more people we talk to, the more women and families we talk to, the more we learn about what their core values are, what their needs are and what they would like from an EZ Rock radio station.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16121             So there's a sharing platform there.  It's not so much an opportunity for us to import programming, it's more an opportunity for us to import ideas and to expand on the values that we know are at the core of our brand and are at the core of the people we seek to serve.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16122             MS TAYLOR:  Brian does conduct I think it's weekly phone conference calls with all the Program Directors that had this format across the country, as we do with our other like formats. And it's exactly that, it's ‑‑ well, Brian might have a few cages that he wants to rattle from time to time, but it's usually a sharing of opportunity, a sharing of information. Did you hear about this, we have this going on in this market, it's really working out well.  And as well, with our commitment to new and emerging Canadian music, we think this is very instrumental in getting music that is in a small market somewhere in Canada by a local artist that is doing well, that's getting response on our websites or request lines and whatnot, getting that information to our other Program Directors quickly so that they can respond to it and potentially test it out in their market and grow the music that way.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16123             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  The talking about local programming, you will be local live how many hours a week?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16124             MR. DEPOE:  Seventy‑eight hours per week.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16125             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And the rest will be voice track or will you have syndication programming as well?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16126             MR. DEPOE:  We have 37 hours of voice track programming and 11 hours of produced special program, but it's all local.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16127             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  All right, so it's produced by the local people to be here over the weekend, particularly, or later during the day?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16128             MR. DEPOE:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16129             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  That's correct, ok.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16130             MS TAYLOR:  THE countdown show and things of that nature.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16131             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Okay. No broker programming?  Any broker programming?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16132             MR. DEPOE:  I beg your pardon, sorry?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16133             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Will you have ‑‑ there aren't any brokered programming?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16134             MR. DEPOE:  At this point we have no plans to do any broker programming.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16135             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Okay. Now, I was directed by one quote in your application and where you are dealing ‑‑ well, you're going to have a daily financial and business report, and I was asking myself how do you do those business reports to make them more attractive for women, since you are going to be catering more towards women.  Generally speaking, those features are done by a guy at the Stock Exchange or at CIBC or Nesbitt Burns, but what kind of special focus do you have to make them more attractive for women?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 95 \l 16136             THE CHAIRPERSON:  For the record, this woman over 35 plus listens to male stockbrokers and female stockbrokers, and I am indifferent to the gender of the individual and the tone and whether it's ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 16137             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  I'm not suggesting here that women aren't interested by business and financing, I think they have ‑‑ but they are more attracted, surely, by something other than men.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 95 \l 16138             MS TAYLOR:  I'll attempt to answer that, but I'm going to ask Brian to ‑‑ maybe Brian should handle all of it.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16139             MR. DEPOE:  Commissioner Arpin, it's you and me at this point.  First of all, and I know Sharon is itching to get at this question, but, of course, business news and financial news is a relevance to both sexes and it's presented in a way that's of interest to both on the EZ Rock radio stations. Sharon...?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16140             MS TAYLOR:  I think you put that beautifully.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16141             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you. You're saving me as well.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16142             We'll move now to Canadian talent development.  We noted that during the deficiency phase that there was some question that as to the eligibility of your Aboriginal, First Nation broadcasting core scholarship initiative you have indicated that this initiative, if it was deemed ineligible, then the $10,000 will be re‑directed to the CB Starmaker Fund.  If ineligible as CTD it will not maintain this initiative as a benefit outside of CTD.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16143             MS TAYLOR:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16144             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Could you provide us with any additional background of this type of broadcasting scholarship initiative that might impact on its eligibility as acceptable CTD funding under current guidelines?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16145             MS TAYLOR:  I just want to be clear, are you speaking to the First Nations University?  It's the other one, the ‑‑ okay.  No, the only ‑‑ again, the only explanation or background I can give you on that is that we are ‑‑ I guess we're trying to make the point that we think it's valuable, we think it's important, particularly in this community.  We, of course, will have the opportunity as a new startup to fill all of our positions locally, and we'll be able to look at that, certainly, from an employment equity point of view, but we really think that we need to add that extra push, that extra initiative to try to attract Aboriginal students to the industry.  And again, that's why we would really appreciate you considering that program.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16146             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And you have ‑‑ well, you just stated that if the Commission was to deem it noneligible, then you will not contemplate doing it.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16147             MS TAYLOR:  We'll certainly still do all the good work that we do in our other markets with the universities, with the community colleges, working with then, and, of course, we'll have a large component on air for employment equity and diversity.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16148             But, no, we think that again, if you disallow that, we'll be content to put our money into Starmaker and proceed with our other initiatives, which do include the First Nations University bursary program.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16149             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16150             We'll move now towards the economic aspect of your application, including the impact of the incumbent and the market capacity.  We'll start ‑‑ my first question I'll start with page 6 of your presentation where you said ‑‑ you spoke about economic indicators and particularly the first one that you quote was GDP growth of 3.8 percent for 2006.  What is the source of that indicator?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16151             MS TAYLOR:  I would just like to reintroduce Norine Mitchell, she handles our sales component, and she'd like to speak to that, I think.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16152             MS MITCHELL:  I was provided that information by the Saskatoon Regional Economic Development Board.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16153             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Now, you also mention in your oral presentation, Ms Mitchell, that they ‑‑ all the economic indicators were positive other than the GDP. What were the other indicators that you had looked at?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16154             MS MITCHELL:  Building permits were very encouraging, and in particular my discussions with the local business people, the key advertisers.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16155             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  So that, generally speaking, reflected that the economy was good, that's what you're saying?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16156             MS MITCHELL:  Yes, the growth in retail spending was obvious and in particular there is quite a large growth in housing and relatively affluent housing as well.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16157             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Okay. So those are not ‑‑ so your reference is really the local trade and talking with the people, and obviously with the city, just industrial, development corporation, I would suspect, but there is no ‑‑ no other ‑‑ you didn't consult the conference board or the other sources?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16158             MS MITCHELL:  I did source the Conference Board as well, and that was as well through Saskatchewan Economic Development ‑‑ Saskatoon Economic Development.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16159             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  That's fine.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16160             MS TAYLOR:  There were the other indicators, of course.  You know, we looked at population, we looked at housing starts, we looked at kind of the laundry list of what you go through to see whether there is growth in the market and whether it's been a sustained growth, slow but sure or just in the last couple of years, and in Saskatoon it is true that it is a market that is so diversified at this point and what's really terrific is I just ‑‑ I just love reading about the way the ‑‑ I think I referenced, you know, the old fashioned ag business has now been married with this incredible high technological industry that's going on in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16161             So there is ‑‑ and, of course, just the local retailers are very, very buoyant about what's going on there and feeling good, and everyone that we spoke to when you ask the question, how is business?  Good.  Well, how is it compared to this time last year?  Great.  And how are you feeling about where it's going?  I think it's going terrific.  And this all was before the PST cut, which I apologize if we tend to kind of talk about it a little too much, but we don't have it in Manitoba, so we're maybe a little jealous at this point.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16162             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And the other provinces as well.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16163             MS TAYLOR:  Yes, true.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16164             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Have you tried to ‑‑ have you done a study to establish the market capacity for ‑‑ an advertising capacity of the market in Saskatoon, and particularly the radio ‑‑ the radio capacity, and what the incumbents are currently taking and what you expect to take?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16165             MS MITCHELL:  The formula we used or the process we used is we worked our way backwards from the CRTC 2005 Financial Report stating that Saskatchewan on a whole had approximately $63 million spent in radio advertising.  And we backed that up to determine a share ‑‑ cost per share and we determined the market to be at about 23 million dollars.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16166             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And have you figured out how much money the ‑‑ could you give me more details on how you arrived at the 23 million dollars, because you started with 63 for the full ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 16167             MS MITCHELL:  63 million, yes, I can.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16168             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And then you said, you look at market share and finally arrive at 23 million, but could you substantiate that?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16169             MS MITCHELL:  Well, the formula that we used, we started at the 63 million from 2005.  We broke the population base down.  In Saskatoon the 18 to 54 year old market represents 26 percent of the overall Saskatchewan population, and Saskatoon represents 26 percent.  26 percent of that gave us approximately 13 million dollars. Now, keeping in mind, of course, that Saskatoon is a major centre in Saskatchewan, we added 40 percent onto that to increase because additional spending will be focused in they're being a major centre, and that brought us to a cost per share of $230,000.  And we are projecting a five share in this market.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16170             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  So you're going to be taking yourself a million ‑‑ a million ‑‑ $350,000 of that 23 million dollars.  Do you have an idea of what the incumbents are currently getting out of that 23 million dollars?  Because you're using 2005 numbers, so have you done any study or have you listened to the stations, look at the number of spots that they're currently running and then make an estimate of how much they are ‑‑ they could get out of the market?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16171             MS MITCHELL:  Yes, I did monitor the stations and we have been monitoring the stations.  The radio stations are fairly balanced right across the Board as far as share goes.  There is, of course, the Hot AC station in town does take a slightly more share, but it's very balanced right across, and I believe that the remaining 23 or the 23 million is spread fairly evenly over the top three radio stations there.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16172             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  So 23 is what the market ‑‑ what the radio broadcasters in the market are making.  Are there any money because they ‑‑ we heard earlier this morning that there were some retailers that were not advertising because probably they were not even solicited.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16173             MS MITCHELL:  That's right.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16174             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  So what is, according to you, the market capacity?  I hope you're not telling me that you're going to be taking 1,150,000 out of the broadcasters department use?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16175             MS MITCHELL:  No, actually ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 16176             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  That's not what your application says.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16177             MS MITCHELL:  Yes, I've got it right here, yes.  Yes, I do have a breakdown on that.  We project 35 percent of our revenue will come from non‑radio, nontraditional advertising, 25 percent, we feel, will come from existing advertisers' budgets spread, like I said earlier, fairly evenly over the competitors.  And 40 percent we expect to see from expanded radio advertising budgets, because this particular format is delivering a market not currently reached.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16178             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And what has been the experience of Standard in launching EZ Rock format in other markets regarding new advertisers?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16179             MS TAYLOR:  I think it depends on the market, and I think it depends on the demand for that format in the market because it is Standard Radio and in this case I think you will notice by looking at our projected financials, we will operate at a bit of a loss for the first couple of years, something that we're more than willing ‑‑ I was going to say more than happy, but I'm sure that there would be people that would argue that.  That we can manage that and we're content to manage that because we think it is a growth format and one that will be successful for many, many years.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16180             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Now, I don't have any doubts that Standard has the financial capacity to compete, but you will be a stand‑alone group in a market where there is six stations owned by two different owners who are making use of the same shop for national advertising.  How do you think you will be able to compete?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16181             MS TAYLOR:  Well, it will be ‑‑ we have organized all of our financials and all of our planning based on being a stand‑alone station.  We accept that, we understand that, we're well aware that Rawlco and Elmer Hildebrand are very well imbedded in the market and established and are able to operate of synergies not just within the Saskatoon market, but also in Rawlco's case in Regina and Prince Albert and North Battleford, and in Golden West's case in Moose Jaw and elsewhere.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16182             So we are very aware of that.  It's not uncommon.  We have the same situation in other Standard markets.  We'll be able to withstand it, we'll find whatever synergies are available to us and operate.  We are very aggressive on our costs and conservative with our expectations.  We think that we'll do just fine.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16183             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  As you know, Rawlco and Hildebrand have intervened and so is Ken Goldstein, and particularly the study filed by Ken Goldstein saying that the market cannot support a new radio station.  What are the factors you think have been taken by Mr. Goldstein and show they have been taken so that to consider the market is sound and having the capacity to support new entrants?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16184             MS TAYLOR:  Naturally we disagree with them strongly.  We believe that the market is strong and will support a new broadcaster in the market, and we also feel that the time has come to answer the need in the community for a new broadcaster, a new voice, not just a new editorial voice, but a new feed on the street.  I think that it will be very stimulating for the business community on a local level as well as on a national level to have another broadcaster in the market.  Do you want to expand on that, Norine, at all?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16185             MS MITCHELL:  Certainly, Sharon, thanks.  Keep in mind, too, these projections that we're talking about are from 2005.  This radio station would be, if we're lucky enough to get the licence, be launched in 2007 following two years of substantial growth in an average of three percent GDP growth.  The retailers I spoke to, it was very exciting to speak to them because I did find that they were in want of having an alternative to find out more about the radio advertising they're doing, and being more targeted with their advertising and have a different player in the market, and in particular, a player from outside of the community, a player from ‑‑ a national player that can come in and bring a new level and help Saskatoon take its next step.  It is growing, there is a lot of activity, a lot of excitement in this market, I found, and they're all ready to move up one more step and go to the next level.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16186             MS TAYLOR:  As well, you know, I think pointing out the obvious that Golden West and Rawlco have combined as a trust to enter the market with another radio station, so ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 16187             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  I may appear to go back and forth because I have two questions.  One is based on your oral presentation and may need Mr. Depoe to expand because you're saying that you will provide an avenue to serve food and refreshments to let the Canadian newcomer perform at all at no cost to the artist.  What are you planning to do specifically for Saskatoon?  A cafe of some kind where you will have performers coming down to Saskatoon and play for ‑‑ or sing for the local people?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16188             MR. DEPOE:  This is something we do in many of our markets already.  For example, our country station BX93 in London has hosted a series for a couple of years now that's become very successful  where they do concerts in the basement of their building.  And it's become one of the more sought after entertainment venues in the city, strangely, because it's an exclusive concert, an opportunity for their listeners to come down to the radio station and be part of a very small group to be up close and personal with a Canadian music star.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16189             Our Edmonton radio station is doing it.  We do it in Toronto. We find various venues, interesting places, they're small areas for small numbers of people.  It's an exclusive opportunity and we foot the bill and it's a tremendous opportunity for people to get up close and personal with the stars they want to see and hear.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16190             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And are you taping these shows and playing them back on the radio station or is it ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 16191             MR. DEPOE:  We broadcast many of them live, we've taped many of them.  Many of them have turned into nationally syndicated specials via our national syndication arm, which is Sound Source, and they will continue to be a source of material not only for Sound Source and for our radio stations, but for Iceberg Media, our online media service.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16192             MS TAYLOR:  We also enjoy doing the same kind of initiative with new and emerging artists, artists that really are unknown to our audience.  I remember a number of years ago talking to a SRIA about some of the things that they do to help their membership, and it was a bit eye opening for me to realize that something as basic as helping them build and manage a budget, these kind of performances are terrific for new talent.  It gives them a controlled opportunity in front of a fairly small, receptive crowd to, you know, really hone their craft.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16193             So as Brian said, we will have these very highly anticipated and sought after artists come in, Canadian artists that people, you know, are just thrilled to be in a small group and be able to listen to them talk about how they write and their music and listen to them perform, but it's equally as gratifying to find artists who are fairly new in the business and help them kind of get their feet underneath them with performing in front of an audience.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16194             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And on a yearly basis, how many performances do you think you could do in Saskatoon?  I could understand that in Toronto you could probably have a weekly one, but in Saskatoon?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16195             MR. DEPOE:  Well, in Saskatoon it will be the responsibility of the radio station programming staff at a very grassroots level, to go out and seek and find new artists that we can present, you know, and as an example, the Canadian Aboriginal Music Awards will take place Friday, November 24th in Toronto  at the John Bassett Theatre.  Saskatchewan, last year, was somewhat under‑represented, and we would like to go out in the Aboriginal community and find those Aboriginal artists who need grassroots support and who need to learn how to perform and who need to be supported in learning their craft in order that Saskatchewan music will be better represented at the Aboriginal Music Awards in the future.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16196             So we will make a very proactive case of going out there and doing it as often as we can.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16197             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  My last question, Mrs. Taylor, as in your supplementary brief on page 17, you're saying that you will have an Advisory Board which will provide ongoing feedback and direction to the station programming people, and the members of that Advisory Board will include local listeners, performers, promoters and members of the Aboriginal community.  Have you already started talking to some people this way or ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 16198             MS TAYLOR:  We have not talked to anyone in particular in terms of an invitation.  We have certainly made mention of this to groups that we have met with and individuals, you know, mentioning would you be interested, should we have this licence, would you be interested in participating in something like this, and give them a general guideline of, you know, what we do in other markets with this Board, but we haven't done anything specific, and we have no one currently lined up for it, no.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16199             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And who, at the station, will be involved in the Advisory Board and responsible ‑‑ who is going to call the meetings?  Is it the station manager or is it ‑‑ it will be the Advisory Board has its own Chair, how does it work?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16200             MS TAYLOR:  No, it is ‑‑ I'm going to ask Brian to fill in on this, but it is generally chaired by the General Manager and the Program Director.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16201             MR. DEPOE:  That's correct.  The General Manager and Program Director chair the meetings and we invite department heads from the radio station to come in and talk about their functions and activities of the radio station and then take feedback from the Advisory Board. And it's one of the really critical aspects of setting down roots in a community, particularly in Saskatoon, where the Aboriginal community is going to be a growing community and one that we want to super serve.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16202             So inviting the Aboriginal community into our boardroom to sit down and tell us what they need from the radio station will be a critical aspect of our future, should we be granted the licence.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16203             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And do you have an Advisory Board in other markets?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16204             MS TAYLOR:  Yes, we do.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16205             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  You have one in Winnipeg, say?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16206             MS TAYLOR:  Yes, we do.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16207             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  So how many times a year do you meet with the Advisory Board?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16208             MS TAYLOR:  A minimum of four.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16209             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  A minimum of four?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16210             MS TAYLOR:  Once per quarter, yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16211             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Once per quarter.  Well, those were my questions.  Thank you, Mrs. Taylor and returning back to my Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16212             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16213             Commissioner Williams...?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16214             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16215             Now, Ms Taylor, given the apparent financial vibrancy of the Saskatoon marketplace, how many new stations do you think we can license, and if we were to license more than one, which applications would have the least impact on your business plan, and which applicants would be most compatible with your offering, and which applicants would be most harmful to your business plan?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16216             MS TAYLOR:  Certainly we feel that there is a very comfortable margin for one commercial operator. After that, you know, I don't know whether you want me to, you know, Touch, I think has a ‑‑ Touch, AVR, these are both groups that would have absolutely minimal impact on our business plan.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16217             So it would be ‑‑ I would be very comfortable with either of those groups as well in the market.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16218             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Are you going to try and identify which would be most competitive with you then?  I think my question ‑‑ I said which would be most harmful to your business plan if they were licensed along with you?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16219             MS TAYLOR:  I think Pattison.  It is a ‑‑ I mean, it's too ‑‑ if we were lucky enough to have ‑‑ when you have the existing broadcasters and then you add in our EZ Rock radio station, and then you add in the Pattison Group's format, then I start to think it gets a bit muddy.  So I would say Pattison.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16220             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay. Thank you for that answer.  That's my question.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16221             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16222             Just back on the Advisory Board, the last sentence of the description in the supplementary brief says, "The Advisory Board will also ensure that the station is true to our family friendly promise."  Could you explain what that means and how that works?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16223             MR. DEPOE:  It's a question of being a voice in the community that we are learning about, and we want to go in there and marry our core values with core values that are compatible in the market that we're seeking to serve.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16224             It's sort of a reserve engineering process where we say, you know,  this is the kind of radio station we are, and these are the values we seek to serve.  And we would like your advice on how the best ‑‑ what the best way is to do that in the Saskatoon community.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16225             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I understand the purpose, but it was more specific.  And  when you say ensure, one might think they would be responsible for the ‑‑ what's on the air, but I assume it's an advisory role and that the Program Director or the News Director is, in fact, responsible?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16226             MS TAYLOR:  Yes.  I would like to speak to that for a second. With these Advisory Boards, where we find them to be the most helpful is they're not reactive, they're proactive. You know, quite often in a lot of the radio stations that I manage, it is a reactive communication that you have with your listeners.  It's as simple as having a mother phone and say, I was driving my children to school this morning and this is what I heard on the radio and I think it's inappropriate. And with our Advisory Boards we have the opportunity to sit and talk about what's on our mind, what we're thinking about with our programming, where the music and the, you know, the artists and what's going on in pop culture, if you will, within our format, and kind of get their feedback on how they feel about these kinds of issues.  And it gives us a ‑‑ it gives us a good gauge measure to go back and speak to the rest of the radio station, the announcers, the talent, even the news department, and say this is what we're feeling from our Advisory Board.  This is what they're telling us how they feel about these issues, how they're being handled in other media, on television, at other radio stations, and how they feel about it, so it really does help us, I believe, to be more proactive as opposed to reactive.  That's certainly one of the components.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16227             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  No, I do understand.  I thank you for that further explanation.  It was just a question of assuring that it is an advisory role, but in fact the decision is made by the Program Director.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16228             MS TAYLOR:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16229             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16230             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms Taylor, can I ask or suggest, maybe, that you would file the curriculum from Red River College on that bursary issue and from NAIT?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16231             MS TAYLOR:  Certainly.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16232             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Because my recollection of that Red River College course is that it wasn't ‑‑ it was broader than broadcast.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16233             MS TAYLOR:  Yes, it is. It's a Creacom, creative communicate ‑‑ the Red River one you're speaking of?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16234             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16235             MS TAYLOR:  Yes. Yes, you're correct, it is, it is broader.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16236             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms Mitchell, when you had your discussions in Saskatoon, was that before or after Mitchell's Fine Foods said they were closing down all of their plants?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16237             MS MITCHELL:  That was prior to.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16238             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Was that before or after the second flooding in of the ‑‑ no, the second uranium mine to flood?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16239             MS MITCHELL:  You know what ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 16240             THE CHAIRPERSON:  It's about a week or two ago.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16241             MS MITCHELL:  It was pretty close to that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16242             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms Mirwald is here, I think she'd be able to tell us the exact date.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16243             MS MITCHELL:  Probably help us with that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16244             MS MITCHELL:  Yeah, I would suspect it was before.  I was there about four weeks ago.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16245             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I suppose things go up and down, so I guess it doesn't ‑‑ who knows.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16246             My final question is this looks a lot ‑‑ aside from the format, this looks to me like a cookie cutter of Regina; am I right?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16247             MS TAYLOR:  No.  I think that when ‑‑ when you operate within a larger company, you do try to take your best practices everywhere you go,  and I think ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 16248             THE CHAIRPERSON  :  No, I'm talking about the CTD.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16249             MS TAYLOR:  Oh, I see.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16250             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm talking about the programming, the spoken word programming.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16251             MS TAYLOR:  Our news commitment, I think, in Saskatoon is quite a bit different than our news commitment in Regina.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16252             THE CHAIRPERSON  :  But you've got the same magazine program?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16253             MS TAYLOR:  Correct.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16254             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you've got the same CTD.  And I guess my reaction is vis‑a‑vis the differences in the ‑‑ in the markets, particularly the differences ‑‑ well, I mean, there are a lot of differences in the market, one of which I think is very important and I have spoken about.  I guess I'm surprised you didn't pay more attention to the differences between them and the needs of the communities.  I see the same amount of you will be doing the same thing for Aboriginals in Regina as you would be doing here.  The programming that one would hear could be 15 minutes or maybe 30 minutes every Sunday morning.  And the CTD is virtually identical.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16255             MS TAYLOR:  I don't disagree with you that there are some similarities.  We did build both ‑‑ we built the programming in both of the markets, we felt, to react to that market.  I mean, the  idea of the Sunday Morning News Magazine program, which we're very excited about, is a ‑‑ it's a stand alone in each market.  We wanted to serve each market individually as we do recognize that they are very different markets.  That said, Saskatchewan, there is a lot of similarities in‑between the two, but there are differences, and we feel that that is reflected in a lot of the different parts of the application, whether it be news or differences in ‑‑ subtle differences in the Canadian talent development. We operate in ‑‑ in many markets where I suppose if you sat and organized the ‑‑ like you do for a hearing, the points that you offer, they would be similar. We are a company that tries to take our best practices, our best programming, and share it.  At the same time, we would not be successful in any of our markets if we did not respond to local programming, and that's how we do build our radio stations for the audiences that we serve and the communities that we serve.  And if I could just ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 16256             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16257             You have your two minutes to shine.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16258             MS TAYLOR:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16259             I would just like to take a moment to reaffirm the key points of our application. Those are brand‑new format not previously available in the market EZ Rock, a new and strong voice for Saskatoon, 20 new jobs, new opportunities, 40 percent Canadian content, including 40 percent Canadian content 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. Monday to Friday.  A benefits package, a Canadian Talent Development package of $700,000 in cash over a seven‑year period.  A new approach to news and information utilizing our newsrooms across the country, along with partnerships with Aboriginal Voices Radio.  And a unique magazine program for Saskatoon that will truly give a voice to the Aboriginal community.  And finally, a conservative, realistic and achievable business plan.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16260             Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16261             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16262             Madam Secretary, we'll just go straight on.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16263             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16264             I would now call on Touch Canada Broadcasting to come forward for their presentation.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16265             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16266             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16267             Before we proceed to the next application, I would just like to indicate for the record that Standard Radio has filed their chart on Spoken Word Programming on their Saskatoon application.  It will be available in the public examination room.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16268             And also, just for ‑‑ to note that the curriculum that they have undertook to provide with respect to the Broadcasting Scholarship Initiative, this will be provided on November 10th through the Commission, and will also be available on their application file.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16269             We can now proceed with the next application, which is Item 20 on the Agenda. An  application by Touch Canada Broadcasting Inc. for a licence to operate an English language FM commercial specialty radio programming undertaking in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16270             The new station would operate on frequency 100.9 MHz, (channel 265C1) with an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts (nondirectional antenna/antenna height of 179.1 meters).

LISTNUM 95 \l 16271             Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Allan Hunsperger, who will introduce his colleagues, and you will have 20 minutes for your presentation.  Mr. Hunsperger.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 95 \l 16272             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you, Madam Secretary.  Madam Chairman, members of the CRTC and Commission staff.  Thank you for allowing us the opportunity of sharing with you our reasoning for applying for a specialty FM Gospel music radio licence for the City of Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16273             Before we get started, let me reintroduce to you our panel.  To my far right is Beverly Gillespie, our Business Manager.  To my immediate right is Malcolm Hunt, our Network Program Director.  To my left is Jamie Moffat, Sales Manager of our Edmonton stations.  Maureeta Percy of Ipsos‑Reid was unable to be with us today and unfortunately Dionne Smith from the Shai Awards had to return to Calgary yesterday due to a family emergency.  Her son, just so you know, got cut in an incident in the school and required 25 stitches, and he's okay.  So we're happy about that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16274             Attached to the end of our presentation document is a seating chart for ease of identifying members of our panel.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16275             At the present time Saskatoon has no full time full power Gospel station.  There is a low power 37‑watt station transmitting from Bulcher, which is owned by Mr. Robert Orr.  Mr. Orr is in full support of our application as evidenced by the intervention he has submitted to this proceeding.  With your approval in our ability to provide the infrastructure, including personnel, programming, marketing and financial backing to sustain such as station, we are confident that we can establish a successful Gospel voice in this market thereby satisfying the needs of 30 percent of Saskatoon residents whom have declared an interest in this kind of format.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16276             As we mentioned earlier in our Regina application, Touch Canada Broadcasting Inc. is committed to the gospel music format, which it broadcasts on its existing stations in Edmonton and Calgary.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16277             Due to the success of these stations, Touch Canada Broadcasting is now ready to launch more of these kinds of stations in other markets where interest has been shown such as Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16278             MS GILLESPIE:  As you drive into Saskatoon from any direction, the city signs that welcome you say, "Saskatoon Shines" as its motto.  We think that it would be very fitting to have Shine FM in a city that uses "Saskatoon Shines."

LISTNUM 95 \l 16279             Saskatoon shines in several ways.  It has the largest science project in Canada ‑‑ Canadian Light Source synchrotron; the most advanced bioprocessing facility in Canada.  Lowest corporate tax rates for manufacturers and processors west of Ottawa.  Home to the world's largest producers of potash and uranium.  In lifestyle, it is the best city under 250,000 in Canada, and 15th in North America.  It has the best air and water quality in Canada.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16280             We at Touch Canada Broadcasting want to be part of the mosaic of this community, and we feel that the addition of a Shine FM will only add to its luster.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16281             We called in Ipsos‑Reid to survey the city and area to see what the response would be in offering a Gospel music format.  I will ask Jamie Moffat to explain to you their process and also share with you the results of the survey.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16282             MR. MOFFAT:  Thank you, Bev.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16283             Ipsos‑Reid was commissioned by Touch Canada Broadcasting to conduct a telephone survey with a random sample of 300 adults from the Saskatoon area to determine the interest in a contemporary Christian music radio station and a southern Gospel music station. Respondents were contacted using random digit dialing in the Saskatoon area.  All telephone interviews were conducted between May 8th and 16th, 2006.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16284             Interest in a contemporary Christian music station in Saskatoon is high.  A total of 30 percent of respondents indicate that if a contemporary Christian music radio station was available in Saskatoon, they would listen to it either regularly or occasionally.  Furthermore 35 percent of Saskatoon adults say they listen to Christian music, indicating a healthy appetite for the format in that market.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16285             Those interested in the contemporary Christian music station indicate they would listen to the station for an average of 74 minutes per day. Additionally 24 percent who would listen to the station, say their overall radio listening habits would increase if the station was available.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16286             Interest in a southern Gospel music station is weaker than that for a contemporary Christian music station, but still promising.  A total of 21 percent of respondents say that if a southern Gospel music radio station was available in Saskatoon they would listen to it either regularly or occasionally.  Those interested in the southern Gospel music station indicate they would listen to the station for an average of 60 minutes per day.  Additionally, 17 percent who would listen to the station say their overall radio listening habits would increase if the station was available.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16287             If these stations existed today they would be among the most popular stations in Saskatoon respectively.  By virtue of the 30 percent who say they would listen to the contemporary Christian music station at least occasionally, and 21 percent who would listen to the southern Gospel music station at least occasionally, these radio stations would have the potential to become popular stations in Saskatoon if they were launched.  Listenership could rival that of CFMC 95.1, C95, which 33 percent have listened to in the past month, CJDJ 102.1 FM, Rock 102, which 30 percent have listened to the past month, and CJMK 98.3, Magic 98.3, which 22 percent have listened to in the very past month.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16288             Few Saskatoon residents are very satisfied with radio in Saskatoon, and few who watch or listen to Christian programming are very satisfied with the amount of Christian programming available to them.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16289             Although almost all Saskatoon adults listen to the radio on a daily basis, only one in three report being very satisfied with radio in Saskatoon, indicating a gap in the marketplace.  Only 17 percent of respondents who watch or listen to Christian programming say they are very satisfied with the amount of Christian programs available to them. Only 10 percent of respondents who listen to Christian music say they're satisfied with the amount of Christian music currently being played on the radio.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16290             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Upon receiving this information we decided to go with the largest group in the survey, that of the contemporary Christian music.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16291             We have trademarked Shine FM for Canada so that when we approach different markets with our style of radio, they will know exactly what to expect.  Jamie Moffat, our Sales Manager in Edmonton will tell you about our marketing plans for Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16292             MR. MOFFAT:  As I told you earlier in our Regina presentation, our past experiences have shown us there are advertisers specific to this format that would not usually advertise on other types of radio stations.  Our research in the Saskatoon market indicates the same holds true here.  A number of businesses that currently do not utilize radio have indicated to us a willingness and an eagerness to advertise on a Gospel music station.  These include bookstores, trucking companies, and small businesses.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16293             As a result of our research of the Saskatoon market, we are confident that there is a large enough interest in our proposed Gospel format to sustain and grow a successful business.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16294             MR. HUNSPERGER:  I will now ask Malcolm to share with you a little of our programming plan for Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16295             MR. HUNT:  Thank you, Allan.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16296             For your information, attached to this presentation is Appendix B, Programming schedule that I have drawn up to give you a look on one page of what the programming looks like at 100.9 Shine FM Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16297             As in Regina, we will be hiring two full‑time on‑air personalities, plus one part time to assist in the morning drive.  The part‑time position will become full time in year two.  In our existing operations we regularly exceed our Canadian content of 10 percent.  We will continue to do this in Saskatoon if granted a licence.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16298             We will provide a weekly total of 31.4 hours of spoken word programming, this will include 6.6 hours of news, weather and sports, 8.3 hours of local reflection and announcer content, 1.5 hours of comedy and human interest features, and 15 hours of brokered programming.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16299             A total of 98 hours per week of our programming will be local as defined by the Commission's current regulations.  This represents approximately 78 percent of our overall 126‑hour broadcast week.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16300             In our Regina presentation we indicated that news is an area in which Touch Canada Broadcasting is planning expansion.  We will provide a full slate of news programming using our own staff in Saskatoon supplemented by our Edmonton centre in the services of radio news.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16301             Community involvement is another area Touch Canada Broadcasting prides itself on.  If granted a licence in Saskatoon we fully intend to find deserving charities to partner with as we have in Calgary and Edmonton.  In the last three years we have raised approximately 2.7 million dollars for charities in those two cities.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16302             With respect to balance, just let me reiterate what we stated our Regina application.  We take our responsibilities to provide balanced programming very seriously.  As in Regina, we will set up a dedicated phone line and answering service to take listener comments.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16303             We also recognize the importance of Canadian talent development.  We believe the stronger the Canadian Gospel music industry becomes, the better sounding our radio stations will be.  We propose a commitment of $112,000 over the licensed term that money will go entirely to the Shai Gospel Music Awards.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16304             As Dionne Smith explained to you during our Regina presentation, the Shai Awards are Canada's only people's choice Gospel music awards dedicated to this genre.  Shai Gospel music, with its awards, seminars, and events, offer a unique platform for the Gospel music industry, the listeners and the artists.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16305             In addition to the artists mentioned in our Regina application who have gone on from the Shai Awards to receive national prominence at the Juno Awards, many upcoming artists have been assisted in their careers by the Shai Awards.  One local example of this is the rock band Stereotrap, which was showcased at the Shai Awards in 2004 in Calgary.  This band has gone on to be the opening act for groups like Thousand Foot Krutch and Tree63 performing in Saskatoon tomorrow night at CNH Place.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16306             Since the inception of the Shai Awards, Touch Canada has supported its endeavours each year. We look forward to continuing this relationship in the future.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16307             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you, Malcolm.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16308             Touch Canada Broadcasting is looking forward to bringing a Shine FM to Saskatoon.  We believe there is a strong niche for this format.  Licensing a full power Gospel music radio station in Saskatoon will allow the city to shine even brighter than it is right now.  We bring balance and diversity with the broadcast system, and we would do all we can to be a part of the positive growth happening in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16309             We are now ready to answer any of your questions in regards to this application, and thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16310             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Pennefather.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16311             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  Good almost afternoon by a few minutes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16312             First, Mr. Hunsperger, would you please convey to Madam Smith our best wishes for a speedy recovery of her son.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16313             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you, I will.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16314             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I just have a few questions to clarify our understanding of the music and local and spoken word programming first on the list.  One thing that wasn't clear when we're looking at the music.  You haven't specified a target audience, and when I went through IPSOS‑Reid I didn't quite see that there was a target audience or a core demographic.  And as you know, we look at that with all the applicants.  Could you explain what you think is your core target audience?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16315             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Our core demographic usually is female, 33 to 35, married, two children, and a professional.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16316             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  That's quite specific.  So female, 33 to 35, and as we ask, is there a medium age that's the core?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16317             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Well, we'd go 20.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16318             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  That would be 32 and a half.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16319             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yeah.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16320             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay. Not bad for a non‑math person. I notice as well that you mentioned today, and this was very interesting to read on page five, that in fact it's the Christian music more than southern Gospel that is showing up as more attractive to your potential listeners.  And you do note that the listenership could rival CFMC, CJDC and CJMK, which are CHR Rock and so on.  Could you just explain how you would bring a distinctive music to the listenership and what ‑‑ why is yours the best choice of format?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16321             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Well, obviously, you know, right now outside of the low power 37 watt that's playing out of future, there is no format right now in Saskatoon that's playing contemporary Gospel music. When you look at this statistic you know that 30 percent of the survey said they would listen to our station. We know that we're not going to probably show that kind of percentage when we get up.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16322             I mean, if we got half of that, we would be turning cartwheels.  We usually get in a market about a four to a five percent, maybe a six percent share, and that's about where we go.  IPSOS‑Reid just, you know, takes a look at this and then takes a look at the other people that they've surveyed and asks the question, which station do you listen to?  And that's where they get these percentages.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16323             So it makes us look very good on the paper here, but we know realistically that we're only going to get about five or six percent of the share.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16324             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16325             It's the distinction that you drew with the Christian music, which really covers a number of genre, as you explained the other day, and the more specific southern Gospel music, which skewed of less interest.  So I guess we're looking at the diversity within low genre that you would offer.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16326             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes. We have done this in several of our surveys with IPSOS‑Reid because we know in our Edmonton market we have a southern Gospel music station and we have a contemporary, and so we ask the question for them to ask which of these formats would be the most popular in these areas, and virtually almost every area that they surveyed comes out the same, that the contemporary Gospel music is higher than the southern Gospel music, almost about the same percentages all the way through.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16327             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So there is contemporary Gospel and souther Gospel?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16328             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16329             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay. That terminology provides a slightly different distinction.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16330             Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16331             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16332             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  If we move on to spoken word, again just a clarification.  In your application, and you repeat it today in your presentation, you will provide a total of 31.4 hours of spoken word, which includes 6.6 hours news, weather and sports, 8.3 hours local reflection and announcer content, and 1.5 hours comedy and human interest features.  Would that describe ‑‑ that describes only part of the 31.4 hours of spoken word.  Could you just elaborate?  I'm looking at your application at 7.6 where you have a list of what you're providing as spoken word.  Could you go through that and just clarify the total 31.4 hours?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16333             MR. HUNSPERGER:  I will ask Mr. Hunt to give you the detail on that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16334             MR. HUNT:  I think the remaining 15 hours that we were talking about is the brokered spoken word.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16335             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  It's the brokered?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16336             MR. HUNT:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16337             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay. Because we had in the application special programs that could promote the community, et cetera, and so it led to thinking that the 31 was made up of the six, the eight and another 16, but that's not the case.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16338             MR. HUNT:  The local reflection I think would be the community involvement, community calendar, that type of thing.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16339             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  The 8.3 hours of local reflection?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16340             MR. HUNT:  Correct.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16341             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And the 15 hours of brokered programming is not local, it is, in fact, not Canadian as we discussed.  It's the same approach as in the Regina application?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16342             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes. You know, like we said in the Regina application, we tried to get Canadian involvement in that and we have been successful somewhat in our Edmonton scenario, but it's very difficult.  We would be trying the same thing in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16343             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I think as well your diagram of the program schedule, we had looked at 52 hours of voice tracking, but this schedule outlines when the voice tracking would be.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16344             So I don't think I need to ask that question, but in your application you state at 7.3, "The proposed FM station will utilize the TCB News network and the radio news network to cover breaking news, current affairs, sports, regional events, and news specials."  You also specify that a Saskatoon news reporter will add local news and community reflection to the package. This point was also asked at deficiencies, but could you tell us how you will ensure that the local interests of your Saskatoon listeners will be ensured with this approach?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16345             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Well, it will be, of course, with the staff that we have there.  They will have the Saskatoon focus, that will be their focus.  All of our radio stations, you know, focus on their particular markets.  We are using, you know, the resources that we have, our developing Touch Canada Broadcasting News network, which is just in its infancy stages, which we mentioned the other day.  They will provide a lot of the national and international news,  but the local people will be talking about, you know, the local sports as well as any current news stories that are happening in Saskatoon specifically.  The half time person will do that in year one, and, of course, that will be a full‑time person in year two.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16346             Also our announcers are, just as much as our news people, involved in what's going on in the specific markets that they're in, so they all are fully aware that if something needs to be reported, they will report it for that market.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16347             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I'm looking at your schedule and I think a deficiency response on July 21 you indicated that you will not schedule newscasts on the weekend, at least until your news department expands.  Can you give us an idea when you will be able to provide weekend news and how you will, in the meantime, keep listeners informed on news, weather, and sports, if there is no weekend newscasts as such?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16348             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Well, the weekend announcers will obviously take care of that for the first year. It's something that I've definitely thought about, especially through a lot of the questioning that we've had through the hearings, that we probably wouldn't have a problem scheduling newscasts on the weekends in year two.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16349             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  In year two?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16350             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Correct.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16351             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So if we connect that, then, to your newsroom and you haven't provided, I think, enough information on the size of the newsroom and the staffing news reporter. You may have added a little more information today, so could you clarify what at the start you will have as a newsroom and news staff and programming staff?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16352             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Once again, it's basically comprised ‑‑ we have a small staff.  Most of our ‑‑ all of our radio stations operate with a small staff.  We try to be very conservative.  We're not one of the giants in the market that can employ 20 people.  We have to be very conservative with the people that we do have.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16353             Our newsroom is ‑‑ in this day and age with technology, when we say newsroom it totally looks different from what it did five, ten, fifteen years ago when we had, you know ‑‑ I remember when I first got into the radio you had to rip the wire and there was actually staff that was there and doing that on a constant basis.  For us, we utilize the resources of the radio news, and, of course, the rest of the people within our radio stations in order to accomplish that. So we basically wear a lot of hats.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16354             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  But how many staff will be in the Saskatoon newsroom even though it looks a little different, but how many people will be in Saskatoon dedicated to the news?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16355             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Well, there would be one person part time in the first year, and then that person would be full time in year two.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16356             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Part time. And do you feel that's sufficient to provide 6.6 hours of news, weather and sports?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16357             MR. HUNSPERGER:  In combination with our Edmonton centre and radio news, yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16358             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So  if we look at ‑‑ and you mentioned that again today, full slate of news programming using our own staff in Saskatoon. So that's part time ‑‑ one part‑time person supplemented by Edmonton and the services of radio news?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16359             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Correct.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16360             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So how can you assure us, then, that the news will be pertinent to Saskatoon listeners?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16361             MR. HUNSPERGER:  All of our ‑‑ all of our announcers, whether they be just regular DJs or news people, are talking about what's going on and what is relevant to that particular market.  It's happening right now in Calgary, it's happening in Edmonton, and we are servicing those listeners no different than we would in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16362             We're ensuring that the people in Calgary and in Edmonton right now are receiving the information that is relevant to them and the same will happen in Saskatoon.  It may not just necessarily be that part‑time person, it might be the morning announcer who perhaps may do their own sports in the morning, as well as, you know, the afternoon drive.  We utilized everybody on our staff to ensure that the information gets to the people, to our listeners.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16363             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So if I'm looking, just to be sure I understand, spoken word breakdown Saskatoon, Monday to Friday, news, five minutes, one minute weather, two minutes sports.  That five‑minute news, 60 percent national, 40 percent local, that five‑minute newscast, would that be coming from Edmonton and/or radio news content?  What component of that five minutes do you think would be local to ‑‑ 40 percent?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16364             MR. HUNSPERGER:  I believe it says 40 percent.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16365             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Forty percent.  And that would be that one half ‑‑ well, half a person, person part time that would be doing that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16366             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Correct.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16367             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  That clearly involves synergies with ‑‑ with your existing stations and clearly programming synergies will be realized.  Can you provide us with details on any other synergies which you see, particularly in the areas of voice tracking and traffic?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16368             MR. HUNSPERGER:  I mean, wherever possible, we're going to use people from Saskatoon to do our voice tracking.  When that's not possible, we will utilize the people within our company.  They may be in Edmonton, they may be in Regina, they may be in Calgary.  We will ‑‑ that's basically who we're going to be utilizing for voice tracking.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16369             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So the 52 hours of voice tracking, in speaking with other applicants' voice tracking, will be done locally to a great extent.  Your voice tracking would likely be done in Edmonton; is that what you're saying?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16370             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Some of it, correct.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16371             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Can you give us a sense of the proportion?  Starting in year one, and then I realize you're going to evolve, but in the first couple of years, for example.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16372             MR. HUNSPERGER:  It's difficult to put it into, you know, exactly what percentage of the people in Saskatoon are going to be doing that voice tracking at this point in time. It's something that we're going to have to develop once we get into the market.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16373             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Okay, thank you.  We're going to move on now to the religious programs, which are ‑‑ I have the list and I'm assuming the brokered programs are the ‑‑ at least at the start, would be the programs listed on the chart you gave us, such as Focus on the Family, Insight For Living, Back to the Bible, et cetera.  Those are the programs we're talking about at this moment.  And I think, Mr. Hunsperger, you explained that they're not Canadian and that you don't, at this point, have any Canadian brokered religious programming available?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16374             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Right.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16375             Those that are listed there are not Canadian even though they all do have Canadian offices and staff, and many times we work with these programmers. There are sometimes programs that they develop that are US oriented and would not be sufficient or reasonable to play on a Canadian station.  And they revised those and Canadianized those with the Canadian staffs that they have.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16376             For example, Focus on the Family, Insight For Living, both of their headquarter offices in Canada are in the Abbotsford area of Vancouver.  The In Touch Canadian office is in Markham, Ontario.  Right now the Love Worth Finding, for example, that we have listed there doesn't have a Canadian office, they have a Canadian Board, but they are very versatile down in Memphis, Tennessee, and they have ‑‑ the last time that I was down there was last year in their headquarters, the President of the organization continues to want to ensure us that, (a) if there is anything that would be US oriented or whatever, they would change that and make those programs that would be more applicable for our Canadian audience.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16377             So they do do those kind of things to try to make sure we do not want to have their programs come across in any way, shape, or form as a US scenario, and there are some of the subjects that they talk about most of the time that are universal, and so we don't have a problem with that.  But when that happens, the Canadian offices usually take care of those issues for us.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16378             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16379             It helps us understand your approach to the brokered programming. And just on that point, we mentioned 15 hours when we were discussing the spoken word breakdown, and in your deficiencies you talk about planning to add five additional hours in year two and another five in year three up to 25 per week.  In adding the brokered programming, will you take the same approach?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16380             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16381             I mean, we develop personal relationships with these people, that's why we have been able, as we have mentioned before, to so far keep a clean track record and make sure that we don't end up with egg in our face.  As best we can, I mean, that probably is going to happen to us sooner or later, but we try the best we can.  I go down on a yearly basis to meet with these broadcasters. I go to their headquarters, I visited where they broadcast and let them know what's going on on the Canadian scene and the Canadian market.  And we keep very close contact.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16382             So how it ‑‑ and we also keep close contact, there is kind of a three‑pronged relationship.  One is with the agencies, either Eaglecom come out of Tawasin, BC, which handles most of them.  Or there is Reimer Advertising out of Winnipeg, which handles them.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16383             So with those agencies we keep a very close relationship.  They know what's going on with their station, they know what's going on with these broadcasters as well, and then we also make sure that we have a relationship, not only with the agencies, but also with these broadcasters to try to do the best we can to facilitate our listening audience and make sure that what's happening here, even though it's largely as we have stated is for revenue, is ‑‑ is going to be fitting and appropriate for our kind of programming.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16384             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Continuing on this question.  We can address the issue of balance, but I have here what you tabled in the reply of Phase IV, and I'm assuming should I ‑‑ should we assume to bring that forward to this application?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16385             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes, no problem.  We would abide by what we had said yesterday, the same would apply for Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16386             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Then could you ‑‑ there is one thing to clarify.  I have two points, the first is on the second page, second to last paragraph, "We are willing to accept a condition of licence capping the amount of brokered spoken word programming at a maximum of 15 hours per week for the term of the licence, 11 percent of our 126 hours."  You still agree to this condition of licence?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16387             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes, we do.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16388             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I have another question, but just while we're on this particular document, you also clarified your position on local programming, including voice track programming, which we just discussed, would the same commitments apply in Saskatoon?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16389             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes they would.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16390             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Finally, on the issue of the balanced programming, could I ask you to just speak to the ‑‑ you will be, according to this document, agreeing to a COL general condition with respect to religious policy, and we're aware of the wording of that COL, of course.  Could I ask you to comment on your approach to balanced programming?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16391             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Well, as we've mentioned, we're going to, you know, bring in the telephone line and get comments and even seek after comments of our listeners, and then we're going to air those comments on the station.  And if there is ever a program that is ‑‑ we're not getting any kind of feedback to help us on that balance, then we will, as a staff, our staff will search after that balance and seek it.  Whether we bring in some guests from the community to speak on that subject or whether we actually go out and do the research ourselves. Most likely it would be where we would invite someone who would be able to give the other point of view or points of view in that matter, we would invite them to come on the air and express themselves.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16392             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Regarding the open line programming, I'm sure you're aware of the Commission's regulations regarding open line programming.  Do you have in place mechanisms to, for example, a delay mechanism or supervision of ways to supervise the on air comment?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16393             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes, this is not open line, this is recorded.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16394             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  It will be recorded?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16395             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes, it would be recorded and then we would play back.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16396             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Should open line be an approach you would like to use  to provide balance, would you have in place the mechanisms?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16397             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16398             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Who would be responsible and who will be responsible as well for the recorded as well as any possible open line programming and the monitoring thereof?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16399             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Well, obviously there is two people that are responsible for the ‑‑ on the open line.  One of them obviously is our Program Director who is responsible for anything that goes over the air.  And the other one we would look to our engineering to make sure that the mechanisms are in place and working properly, you know, to handle that if we did do an open line.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16400             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16401             I'll move on to Canadian talent development.  There is ‑‑ you have committed to spending at least 16,000 a year to support the Vibe Gospel Music Project.  You provided a cost breakdown in the context of our discussion in the Regina market.  In asking you to provide a cost breakdown would it be the same cost breakdown or different?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16402             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16403             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  The same?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16404             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16405             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So perhaps we could resubmit the same cost breakdown, the contents is just discussion. And should the Commission decide that some of these costs do not qualify as direct contributions to develop a Canadian talent, would you be prepared to re‑direct these costs to ineligible initiative as set out in Appendix 1 of Public Notice 1991‑11?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16406             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes. We would, as I mentioned yesterday, we would like to approach Dionne Smith and see if she can make adjustments that would satisfy the Commission.  If there is something in the Shai that doesn't satisfy the Commission, we would want to see if she could make those adjustments, and I'm sure in talking with Dionne that she would do everything she could to make sure that that would happen because I guess we really believe in what's happening in the Shai movement and how it's happening.  I have an e‑mail here from Kelly Bittner(ph) who's from Stereotrap, which is a rock band out of Saskatoon.  And he basically states in this e‑mail that of how thankful they are and what the Shai Awards has meant to them as a local band.  Would you like me to read that into the record or?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16407             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Madam Chair?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16408             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I don't think it matters.  You do what you want.  I mean, it's your evidence.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16409             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Okay. All right.  I will just read it.  It's from Kelly Bittner from Stereotrap.  "The Shai Awards have helped Stereotrap a great deal.  The exposure to industry professionals and to new audience that the Shai Awards provides is something that most young independent bands cannot do on their own.  The vision of Dionne Smith to see the Shai Awards grow and to be a steppingstone for Canadian Christian artists is admirable and we feel it is effective towards making Christian music credible and respected in the Canadian music industry.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16410             From our first experience on the New Artists Showcase competition to performing at last year's awards ceremony in Mississauga, we feel that the Shai Awards has come a long way in trying to promote Canadian acts and not just the bands and artists who have recording contracts, but the independent artists and bands like us.  We feel as though we are a part of the Shai Awards and we would love an opportunity to work with their team again.  Kelly Bittner."

LISTNUM 95 \l 16411             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16412             Finally, the area I wanted to touch on was the economic impact, the economic issues and your plans, and perhaps also to give you a chance to comment on the discussion we have been having about the market with the applicants. Specifically to your application, you indicate nine percent of your advertising revenues in year one would come from existing stations.  How would you assess the potential of the religious format or your Christian music format to attract new advertisers to radio compared to other formats?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16413             MR. HUNSPERGER:  I'll give that to Mr. Moffat.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16414             MR. MOFFAT:  Based on our experience in Calgary and Regina, we found that ‑‑ or Calgary and Edmonton, that we have found that advertisers who buy our radio stations at least 60 percent of the time have never bought radio before and they're buying us because of our format.  It's format specific.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16415             As far as impact on incumbents or other new licensees in the marketplace, I see it as very minimal, our impact, because if anything the revenue that we would attain would be as an add on to an existing advertiser.  For example, a major General Motors dealer perhaps who is advertising on three Saskatoon radio stations might book a remote broadcast on Shine FM Saskatoon as part of their overall media buy.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16416             So they may increase their budgets to add our specific niche market to their marketing plan.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16417             MR. HUNSPERGER:  And we'd literally get no national revenue.  Very, very small, if any, national revenue.  Once in a while target broadcasting or an agency sends us some ads, but it's very small, very minimal.  Once in a while we'll get a Tim Hortons commercial on our stations, Wal‑Mart once in a while, but basically we have to go after the new markets.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16418             By the way, one of the things that I would like to enter into this is that one of the bookstores ‑‑ there is two book stores called Scott's Parables.  One is in Red Deer, on the highway between Calgary and Edmonton, which is a very successful large bookstore that sells Christian music and other books and things like that.  And the other store that's huge that also does a tremendous selling is up in Saskatoon. And when I was up in Saskatoon the last time talking to the manager there, he said most of the time the Alberta bookstore is ahead of them, but they're very competitive and very close to each other, so we know that they're, just by the virtue of these huge stores, particularly in Saskatoon, but there is a market ‑‑  there is revenue there.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16419             One of the meetings that I had when I went to Saskatoon was with business people, met with over 15 different companies who are not advertising on radio today, but if we were granted a licence, would put their support behind us and advertise on our station.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16420             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So as we have mentioned ‑‑ asked other applicants in terms of a market with six stations now.  In fact, some of the music touching on the genre of music that you would be presenting, although in more from the Christian music artists, do you feel you can compete?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16421             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes, we do.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16422             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Those are my questions, Madam chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16423             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16424             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And thank you very much.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16425             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Vice‑chair Arpin.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16426             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16427             This morning when we heard Standard Radio in their oral presentation, they had the following quote, "The EZ Rock format is unique and what we call family friendly.  It is a format that especially appeals to women and families and allows them to enjoy the stations without the worry of being embarrassed or offended by lyrics or verbal content."  Could we hear some of the same type of music on Shine?  There is an EZ Rock station in Edmonton and there is Shine in Edmonton. Do you play the same music?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16428             MR. HUNSPERGER:  There is ‑‑ I could probably count the number of songs that would cross over on one of my hands between what EZ Rock in Edmonton and what our current Shine FM plays. It's very minimal.  Very minimal.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16429             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Even if it's family friendly and even if it's done not to offend anybody through lyrics?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16430             MR. HUNSPERGER:  They advertise that in Edmonton, that they're a family radio station.  And when I heard Standard say that they wanted to be that kind of a station, I was very excited.  That's great.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16431             But they won't be playing the same music as we're playing, and like Malcolm says, once in a while there are some artists that there is a crossover, but very small.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16432             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  But the two formats are female driven?  Yours is a bit younger in terms of the demographic, yours is say 32 to 33, theirs is 41, but we're talking the same generation of people with ‑‑ women with kids.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16433             MR. HUNSPERGER:  What happened with us in Edmonton is the morning on air personality that was on the EZ Rock station, when we started up our Shine station, came over to us.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16434             So, you know, there is a bit of that kind of similarity, and yet there is a total difference between our kind of music and theirs, and if all the stations in Saskatoon would be family friendly, that would be fantastic for us.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16435             I do just want to add one more thing too, that we're talking very similar styles of music, but the artists and the lyrics are completely different. Like I don't want us to be put into the same category as EZ Rock in terms of the music format, because it is absolutely ‑‑ it is completely different when it comes to the artists that we're dealing with.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16436             When I mention that there is probably a handful of artists that we share, it's basically the crossover artists that are coming out of our genre that get some national more wide spread ‑‑ I use Mercy Me. They had a terrific song called, I Can Only Imagine, that spread across a number of different formats, but for the most part I would say 99 percent of what we play is going to be completely different to anything that's in the Saskatoon market.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16437             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you, Mr. Hunsperger, Mr. Hunt, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16438             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Williams.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16439             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good morning, Mr. Hunsperger and panel.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16440             Much has been made of the large and rapidly growing Aboriginal population in Saskatchewan, and I guess specifically in Saskatoon we heard numbers of 17 percent of the population this morning.  Do you have any specific initiatives to involve or target some of your programming to the Aboriginal populations of Saskatoon?  And you have experience in Edmonton and Calgary, which also have large Aboriginal populations. What has been your experience in working with the Aboriginal communities in those cities where you currently operate? Maybe you can detail some of your experiences and best practices and initiatives and that sort of thing.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16441             MR. HUNSPERGER:  I would be more than happy to.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16442             We have thought about this and talked about this a lot, particularly when we were up in the Grande Prairie area, for example, and even the Fort McMurray area and now, in Regina and Saskatoon.  We have been in contact with Aboriginal pastors and those kind of communities, and even though we have a niche programming of contemporary Christian music, we have been asking ourselves the question, what could we do that would reach out somehow in a positive way to the Aboriginal community?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16443             And one of the things that we've come up with that both the Aboriginals feel would be very positive and we would feel would be very positive is if we could find some young people that are ‑‑ have the ability to come on and be our on air personalities on our radio station we would be overwhelmed and very grateful for that kind of scenario.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16444             I was just talking with some of the applicants that have applied here in saying, say, do you know of any Aboriginal young people that want to be on air and would want to be on air in a Christian contemporary music type of station?  And Debra, back here I talked to her, and she said yes, she feels that there might be a young lady here in Regina who is working on her degree and be ‑‑ might be very interested in being a part of it.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16445             So we have exchanged cards, we have even asked the ARV people as well, that situation, and if we could get one of these staff members to be Aboriginal in our applications and for our, you know, if we get some of these new licences in these markets, we feel that they would be then a model or a role model for some of the Aboriginal young people and we would feel that that would be the best way that we could do this right now.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16446             On our southern Gospel station we, you know, one of the artists is Jody Brown Indian Family, and they're a southern gospel group and do very well and they get a lot of air play on our station in Edmonton.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16447             So we are striving to try to see how that can take place.  And right now our biggest answer would be that if we could get a young person that would want to be on air and be one of our on air personalities in these stations, that would be phenomenal.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16448             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Have you been successful in doing that in the years that you've been operating in Edmonton or Calgary?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16449             MR. HUNSPERGER:  We have not. We have not found, I mean, even, you know, talking with these people even when I ‑‑ here in Regina.  It's very difficult to find those kind of young people, as you know.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16450             But we're not going to give up and we even suggested that if there are young people in the Aboriginal community that want to be a part of our type of programming and would be interested, we would be interested in looking at helping them in their education to get that done, whether it be through scholarship or whatever, to accomplish that.  We have done some of that already with some young people.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16451             For example, our engineer in Edmonton, he was a young man that really didn't know what he wanted to do in life and he came to our station and he worked as a part timer. Ended up to be a full‑time position, but it was a dead end street where he was at in his full‑time position.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16452             So I asked him what he wanted to do in life.  He didn't really know.  I said, I notice you're interested in, you know, tinkling with stuff and putting stuff together.  I said, would you be interested in going to SAIT in Calgary, we'll pay for your education, you come back and work with us as an engineer.  And so he did that, he went to SAIT, he  graduated and now he's back as one of our main engineers in our Edmonton office.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16453             So we would hope that that same thing could happen with the Aboriginal community.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16454             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Mr. Hunsperger.  That's my question.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16455             THE CHAIRPERSON:  On that latter point, the issue of recruiting Aboriginal First Nations people into broadcasting is becoming a very serious issue, and it appears that the practices being done by some people, Mr. Rawlinson included, is go to high school career fairs.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16456             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Pardon me?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16457             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is to go to high school career fairs.  Because there is, as Ms Charles stated, a real dearth, an absolute dearth.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16458             MR. HUNSPERGER:  That's a very good suggestion, thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16459             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, I must have been mixed up last time.  Let me try to do this again.  When you have your morning people here, your morning show people here, you will have the 98 hours as you said.  But you're not going to have them here for a while?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16460             MR. HUNT:  From day one we will have them here or in Saskatoon or Regina or wherever it is we're at.  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16461             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you are going to have them here, the only issue is the new staff?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16462             MR. HUNT:  Well, we have ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 16463             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Half and then one.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16464             MR. HUNT:  Exactly.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16465             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay. I got it, okay.  So when I look at your economic data, the other is the brokered income.  Have you got that, your projections?  It's Appendix ‑‑ no, it is my Appendix 3, it would be in your application, 4.1 of your application.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16466             MR. HUNT:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16467             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, you got it.  How did you calculate the local income?  How did you figure out ‑‑ was it based on the population or something?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16468             MR. MOFFAT:  I'll address that, Madam Commissioner.  When we did our projections, target projections, I looked at the Saskatchewan radio revenue from the CRTC documents, and the Saskatchewan population.  And then I broke it down per capita, Saskatchewan revenue of 63.7 million dollars, a population of 978,000 plus per capita revenue works out to $65 per person in Saskatchewan.  I took the Saskatoon population and multiplied it, which I came up with a conservative, as it turns out, estimate of 14.6 million dollars in Saskatoon radio revenue.  Earlier applications ‑‑ applicants have stated numbers in excess 20 to 25.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16469             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Up to 23, yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16470             MR. MOFFAT:  So we based our revenue projections on a Saskatoon radio revenue pie of 14 million and then taking five percent of that pie, which is what we would project to be our audience share.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16471             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Based on your share.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16472             MR. MOFFAT:  And that audience share is based on ‑‑ we're not measured in Edmonton or Calgary by BBM right now, we have been in the past.  It's also based on current measurement tools of this format in other major markets across North America. In major cities or cities the same size as Calgary and Edmonton, the contemporary Christian music format will drive a three to five share in those markets, however there's 40 to 50 radio stations in those markets as well.  So we feel our estimates are extremely conservative.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16473             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And the other contra, what does that consist of?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16474             MS GILLESPIE:  Contra advertising is what we do in exchange for contra expense, and primarily that is promotional material.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16475             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay. And help me because I actually have never listened to the brokered programming.  They do solicit monies, don't they?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16476             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Not really. What they do is offer books, those kind of things.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16477             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right. Okay.  And they pay you based on the size of the population?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16478             MR. HUNSPERGER:  No, they pay us on what we charge them.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 95 \l 16479             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay. Thank you very much, and you have your two minutes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16480             MR. HUNSPERGER:  To Shine?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16481             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sometimes I say it, sometimes I don't.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16482             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Well, we were hoping you would say it for us

LISTNUM 95 \l 16483             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right. You've got your two minutes to shine.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16484             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16485             First of all, we want to thank you so much for allowing us the opportunity to apply for a specialty FM radio station, Gospel music radio station in Saskatoon.  We feel that we, as you have heard, even some of the other broadcasters we have the least amount of impact in a community when we come in to other broadcasters. And we also know that there is a strong niche for this kind of format that we have in the Saskatoon area.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16486             And we would be very honoured and would try to do our very best to be a broadcaster that would be able to help Saskatoon and Saskatchewan, and we're looking forward to that possibility and I know many of the residents are as well.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16487             So we thank you so much for allowing this opportunity to share with you today.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16488             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16489             I think I'm going to be lynched if I don't call a lunch break.  We are running seriously behind, I must say, should have started at a quarter to eight.  If we can come back at 1:30, and I do ask everyone to try to be brief in their answers here on in.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16490             Thank you.

‑‑‑ Recess at 1245 / Suspension à 1245

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1328 / Reprise à 1328

LISTNUM 95 \l 16491             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary ...?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16492             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16493             Before we proceed I would just like to indicate for the record that Touch Canada has filed their CTD cost breakdown for their Saskatoon application, and that will be placed on their application file.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16494             The other commitments that have been filed with the Commission are two of the numbered companies, 1182743 Alberta Limited.  There are letters clarifying their CTD commitments with respect to factor and the Medicine Hat Jazz Festival.  This is the application for Medicine Hat.  These letters will be placed on the Applicant's public record file and can be viewed in the examination room.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16495             And we will now proceed with items 21 and 22 on the agenda, which are applications by Radio CJVR Limited for licenses to operate two English language FM commercial radio programming undertakings in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16496             One of the new station would operate on frequency 89.7 MHz, channel 209C1, with an effective radiated of 100,000 watts, non‑directional antenna/antenna height of 179.1 metres.  The other station would operate on frequency 106.1 MHz, channel 291C1, with an effective radiated power of 100,000 watts, non‑directional antenna/antenna height of 179.1 metres.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16497             Appearing for the Applicant is Mr. Ken Singer, who will introduce his colleagues. You will then have 30 minutes to make your presentation on both applications.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16498             Mr. Singer ...?

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 95 \l 16499             MR. SINGER:  Thank you. And good afternoon Madam Chair, Commissioners, CRTC staff.  Thank you for allowing us this opportunity to appear before you for the third time on this very busy week.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16500             Before we begin our presentation for our two new FM licences in Saskatoon, I'd like to introduce the member of our team. I am Ken Singer Vice‑President of Broadcast Operations for our company.  Behind me is Joan Therens, a past President and lifetime members of the Board of Directors of the Saskatchewan Music Educators Association.  Next to her, Harrison Thunderchild, a distinguished member of the Aboriginal Community and accomplished educator and a prominent member of the Office of the Treaty Commission Speakers Bureau.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16501             On my far left in the front row is Dave Marcoux.  Dave has 24 years experience in Saskatchewan broadcast media sales, and for the past six years has served as CJVR's Saskatoon Territory Sales Manager.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16502             To his right is Kevin Gemmell, recently appointed station manager and sales manager of our two Melfort radio stations CJVR‑FM and CKJH‑AM. Kevin has been with our company for over ten years.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16503             On my far right is Corrin Harper, a partner at Insightrix Research of Saskatoon.  Corrin earned her Bachelor's degree in Commerce and Masters of Business Administration from the University of Saskatchewan.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16504             To her left is Jessica Schnell, Director of Research Services at Insightrix Research.  Jessica has a training in a wide variety of analysis techniques and earned her Bachelor of Science degree with great distinction at the University of Regina.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16505             Next is Dean Sinclair, a broadcast veteran whose 30‑year career includes programming, on‑air sales and senior management experience.  Dean has provided input and direction for our proposed classic rock musical format.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16506             To his left is Linda Rheaume, Administrative Manager for Radio CJVR's two stations in Melfort, and our new FM station in Whitecourt, Alberta. Linda joined our team 15 years ago.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16507             And to my immediate right is the President and owner of Radio CJVR, Jean Fabro.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16508             MR. FABRO:  Madam Chair and members of the Commission, Radio CJVR is pleased to appear before you today seeking approval to establish two new FM programming undertakings on frequencies 89.7 and 106.1 to serve Saskatoon and surrounding communities. These applications are, without question, the most important initiatives ever undertaken by our company in four decades of continuous broadcasting service to Saskatchewan residents.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16509             Each of the proposed new stations, Classic 89 and Oldies 107, are vital components to CJVR's strategic broadcast plan for Saskatchewan.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16510             Approval of these applications will bring much needed program diversity, listener choice and competitive balance among other important benefits to Saskatoon's radio market, while significantly improving CJVR's ability to compete in today's challenging broadcast environment. CJVR is fully committed to growing its radio business, ensuring the viability of CK750 and CJVR‑FM, in the interests of their listeners across northeast Saskatchewan and to maintain a strong independent radio voice within an increasingly consolidated private radio broadcasting sector.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16511             The Commission's call for Saskatoon and Regina is critically important to CJVR, as both markets represent the rare, if not final, opportunities, for our company to meaningfully increase the size of its critical mass in Saskatchewan.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16512             CJVR, like many of its independent radio peers, arrived at a crossroads some time ago in terms of our broadcasting future.  Many opted to sell to larger broadcast organizations and leave the business and its growing challenges and complexities to others.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16513             CJVR chose not to sell and we began to lay the groundwork for growth in our radio business by increasing its broadcast holdings and critical mass in both Saskatchewan and Alberta.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16514             The first priority was to stabilize CJVR‑AM by giving it the necessary financial, technical and human resources to improve its operation. Next, a sister FM station was added to increase diversity and listener choice within the coverage area, while further stabilizing the AM station by applying shared operating synergies.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16515             Having developed the Melfort stations to their full maturity, CJVR has entered the next critical phase of it's strategic broadcast plan.  That is a phase that includes the acquisition of and launch of CIXM in Whitecourt, Alberta, and pending applications for FM licences in Grande Prairie, Fort McMurray, Medicine Hat, Regina and Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16516             As career broadcasters, CJVR is confident in the economic future of Saskatchewan as evidenced by our substantial investment in Melfort and the level of additional expenditures that my family has committed to in establishing new FM undertakings in Saskatoon and Regina.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16517             MR. SINGER:  Madam Chair, Saskatoon is more to CJVR than just another radio market applied for, one more licence ‑‑ or one more licence to add to a growing chain of stations.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16518             Rather, Saskatoon is central to CJVR's needs to rationalize its radio operations in Saskatchewan.  It represents an integral part of our future lifeblood, and it serves as a linchpin to CJVR realizing its full broadcasting potential in its home province.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16519             If approved for Classic 89 and Oldies 106, CJVR comes to the Saskatoon market not as a stranger, but as a friend and a contributor who has been a part of the Saskatoon community for many years.  As such, we have developed strong and lasting relationships within its business, cultural and educational sectors.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16520             CJVR, for example, has maintained a full‑time sales office in Saskatoon for 11 years to accommodate local businesses who purchase air time on the Melfort radio stations in order to access the thousands of listeners throughout our coverage area who regularly travel to Saskatoon as the service centre for the region.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16521             I'm proud to say that CJVR's AM station CK750 has been the official radio voice of the University of Saskatchewan Huskies football team for over ten years and retains the broadcasting rights to all of their home and away games through to the end of the 2014 season, and we are the host broadcaster for the Vanier Cup, which will be played in Saskatoon on the 25th of this month.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16522             The live play‑by‑play broadcasts reach alumni and Huskie fans throughout the province, across Canada and around the world via CK750's on‑line streaming service.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16523             Further, in response to the University's fundraising campaign, Thinking the World of Our Future, CJVR, on behalf of the Fabro family, donated $275,000 to the cause.  Part of the donation will support the Huskies athletic programs, and the balance will help support additional upgrades to Griffith Stadium.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16524             While these are but a few examples of the kinds of ongoing relationships that CJVR has fostered over the years, they serve to underline the close affinity between our Melfort radio stations, the City of Saskatoon and its many parts.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16525             From the time the Fabro family acquired CJVR as business people and entrepreneurs, it was obvious that expanding to other Saskatchewan markets was critical to our long‑term success in the radio industry.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16526             Given our close proximity to the largest radio market in Saskatchewan, coupled with the historic ties that link the two communities in so many ways, applying for Saskatoon is a natural progression in CJVR's evolution as an independent, dedicated Saskatchewan‑based radio company. In short, CJVR and Saskatoon are a natural fit.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16527             MR. FABRO:  Madam Chair and Commissioners, one of the many challenges facing the Commission today in today's broadcast environment is to strike a balance between preserving the diversity of news voices in the market and the benefits of permitting increased ownership consolidation.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16528             The issues of diversity and consolidation, in our view, can be offset by licensing motivated, independent broadcasters like CJVR, with the credentials to be a viable licensing alternative to a larger corporate interest and even more concentration.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16529             It is our belief that the balance weighs heavily on the side of concentration in the Saskatoon market at the expense of news diversity, given the fact that all six radio stations are controlled by two ownership groups.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16530             Approval of CJVR's proposed new FM stations will help correct the diversity and ownership concentration issues by establishing competitive balance within Saskatoon's radio market through the addition of a distinct alternative news voice and increased ownership diversity.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16531             Of further concern to CJVR is the fact that 26 of 35 English language commercial radio stations in Saskatchewan are controlled by the same two ownership groups. That's almost 75 percent concentration within the province.  The highest in the land.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16532             MR. GEMMELL:  Madam Chair, based on our own intimate knowledge of the local market, the results of extensive consumer demands research and the echos of dissatisfaction from the listening public, it is clearly evident that Saskatoon's local radio spectrum needs new blood.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16533             One frustrated listener in her letter of intervention to the Commission stated:  "I know many people, including myself, who have gone to satellite radio because of their lack of satisfaction with the current radio stations in Saskatoon.  We need new radio stations here, and I believe we are way behind the times in comparison to other larger cities with their choices of radio stations."

LISTNUM 95 \l 16534             CJVR's research of the Saskatoon market indicates 22 percent of listeners are tuning out local radio and tuning in to distant stations, satellite radio and the Internet to find their musical preferences.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16535             Some 70 percent say they would listen to more radio if the programming they liked was available.  65 percent agree that most Saskatoon stations offer similar programming, and 50 percent say they are not satisfied with the choice of local stations.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16536             In this regard, CJVR's proposed new classic rock and oldies unduplicated formats, if approved, will provide significant musical and spoken word diversity and listener choice to meet the unfulfilled needs and stated preferences of Saskatoon's 35‑44 and 45 plus underserved demographic.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16537             MR. SINGER:  Madam Chair, CJVR's ability to compete with multiple station operators is hampered by the fact that we currently do not have access to larger urban markets, like the majority of other applicants.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16538             By comparison, CJVR, as a heritage Saskatchewan broadcaster, serves a widely spread population of 150,000 people living in more than 100 largely rural communities, ranging from Nipawin in the northeast, to Tisdale in the east, to Hudson Bay in the far east.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16539             As such, CJVR cannot afford to idly sit and watch competitors pass us by.  We need to grow our company now, while there are still significant developmental opportunities like those created by the Commission's call for Saskatoon and Regina.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16540             Approval of our proposed new FM stations will have a very positive impact on CJVR's broadcast operations well beyond the urban boundaries of Saskatoon, an impact that will greatly assist the company in its efforts to:

‑ Stabilize and maintain the high quality of existing broadcasting services that its Melfort stations have been providing to northeast Saskatchewan listeners for over four decades.

‑ To help compensate for the erosion of its listeners and revenue base caused by the combination of Saskatchewan's rural to urban migration patterns, and the steady outflow of workers to Alberta's job rich energy sector.

‑ To bolster the financial viability of its Melfort AM/FM stations, whose revenues have been severely impacted by lower power undertakings operating within their regional coverage area.

‑ To enable CJVR to realize more of the common operating efficiencies enjoyed by multiple station operators through shared synergies.

‑ To enhance CJVR's ability to compete on more equal terms with larger broadcast groups in Saskatchewan and Alberta as we implement our strategic broadcast plan.

‑ To enable CJVR to attract and retain new and experienced broadcast talent by providing them with fresh challenges and greater opportunities within a growing company dedicated to radio.

‑ To maintain the voice of independent broadcasters within today's milieu of ownership concentration in markets like Saskatoon and Regina; and

‑ To extend to other markets CJVR's brand of radio, offering great music, locally relevant/community driven spoken‑word programming, and a firm commitment to the development and exposure of Canadian talent.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16541             MR. GEMMELL:  Madam Chair, in response to the call, CJVR engaged Insightrix Research Services to undertake a consumer demand study and economic analysis of Saskatoon, to determine both the need for additional local radio services and the market's ability to support any new undertakings.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16542             Results of IRS study underline both the demand for new FM services to meet the needs and listener preferences of an underserved 35 to 54 demographic, and a vibrant and growing market economy that can readily support new FM radio undertakings with minimal impact to existing Saskatoon stations.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16543             In preparing the business plans for Saskatoon and Regina, CJVR recognized the challenge that any new entrant would face in either market, by having to compete with two ownership groups, each of whom operate three stations in the market.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16544             CJVR concluded that in order to compete in such a concentrated environment, it was necessary to develop a strategy that would help negate the competitive advantage enjoyed by the two incumbent ownership groups.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16545             After a careful review of the IRS studies and its own knowledge of the local radio markets, CJVR concluded that the best competitive approach for both Saskatoon and Regina was to apply for two licences.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16546             MS HARPER:  Madam Chair, essentially the IRS study underlined the degree to which Saskatoon's 35 to 54 year‑old demographic spectrum is underserved relative to the music listening needs and preferences.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16547             Further, the study points to the changing trends within Saskatoon's population which shows that the 30 to 39 year‑old demographic component has steadily decreased over the past six years.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16548             This trend reserves itself, however, within the 40 to 44 age group, and reflects a major increase in the 45‑54 year‑old component, which is the cohort of Saskatoon's maturing population.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16549             Despite Saskatoon's population growth and vibrant economy, it only has six local private radio stations serving nearly 237,000 persons.  The six stations provide a broad range of musical styles that largely cater to the 18 to 34 demographic at the near exclusion of the 35 to 44 and 45 to 54 age groupings.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16550             Hence, in determining which combination of formats would be most compatible in terms of diversity and listener choice, programming and having the least impact on existing stations, it was evident to CJVR that classic rock and oldies made the most sense.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16551             As an integral part of its consumer demand study, IRS presented a 15‑item battery of music genres to 500 respondents aged 18 to 54 in seeking to determine how often they listened to each of the music styles.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16552             The IRS music popularity survey indicated that while the prime audience for CJVR's proposed classic rock station is the 35 to 44 age group at 81 percent, nearly 68 percent of those that were aged 45 to 54 were interested in classic rock.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16553             Similarly, while the prime interest in the proposed oldies station is the 45 to 54 age group at 68 percent, over 50 percent of the 35 to 44 year olds were interested in oldies music and would listen to the station.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16554             MR. MARCOUX:  Madam Chair, the approval of CJVR's Classic 89 and Oldies 106 will largely meet the needs of the 34‑44 and 45‑54 demographic spectrums.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16555             By serving this important sector of Saskatoon's population with two FM services, both stations can specifically target their primary audience, and thus provide better service than one station trying to be more things to more listeners within the broader 35‑54 year‑old demographic.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16556             From CJVR's perspective, the music and spoken word initiatives of Classic 89 and Oldies 106 will also significantly strengthen Saskatoon's local radio market by attracting new listeners and repatriating the 22 percent of residents who tune out of market to access their musical preferences.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16557             MR. GEMMELL:  Madam Chair, in dealing with Classic 89's music, and the level of diversity it will bring to the Saskatoon market, I would again refer to the IRS survey, which showed that classic rock at nearly 74 percent was the most popular style of music among respondents.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16558             While scoring very well across all age groups, the 35 to 44 group was the highest at 81 percent, followed by the 25 to 34 group at 74 percent, and the 45 to 54 group at nearly 68 percent.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16559             Taking the results of the IRS survey and measuring them against the music formats currently available in Saskatoon, there is no station that specifically targets the classic rock genre in spite of its popularity relative to other music styles.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16560             CJVR, in programming Classic 89 musically will specialize in playing classic rock, including milestone rock albums.  The play list will feature music by international artists such as Tom Petty, Pink Floyd, Santana, The Eagles, The Rolling Stones, The Beatles and Canadian artists like Bryan Adams, The Guess Who, Neil Young, Tragically Hip and Streetheart, to name but a few.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16561             We would like to provide you with a sense of how Classic 89 will sound and feel musically with the following montage.

‑‑‑ Audio clip / Clip audio

LISTNUM 95 \l 16562             MR. SINCLAIR:  As a means of creating even more musical diversity and enhancing both established and developing Canadian artists, CJVR will produce in studio a daily 20‑minute program called Canadians on Track, which will run Monday to Sunday at 3:00.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16563             A second programming initiative entitled Saskatchewan Rocks is a 60‑minute program that again will be produced in studio and is scheduled to run in prime time on Saturday evening from 8 to 9:00.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16564             Among the key findings of the IRS demand study is the fact that 76 percent of respondents on hearing a description of the proposed Classic 89's musical and spoken word programming, stated they were very or somewhat likely to listen to the station.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16565             Within the various age groups being targeted, 86 percent of respondents aged 35 to 44 indicated they would likely listen to the new station, followed by nearly 80 percent of those aged 45 to 54, and 65 percent of those aged 25 to 34.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16566             In keeping with the fact that 40 plus is the fastest growing demographic in Saskatoon and the least served, CJVR's second proposed musical format is oldies.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16567             Currently those wanting to listen to oldies music have to tune into a variety of stations with formats ranging from CJMK's adult contemporary to CJWW's country information.  The problem is that none of these stations play more than a small sampling of oldies music.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16568             Essentially, as a dedicated oldies station, rather than some hybrid variety, Oldies 106 will feature hits from the '50s and '60s by international artists Elvis Presley, The Beach Boys, The Beatles and Buddy Holly, and Canadian artists like Joni Mitchell, Paul Anka, Bobby Curtola, Gordon Lightfoot, Andy Kim and The Poppy Family, to name a few.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16569             We would like to provide you with a sense of how Oldies 106 will sound and feel musically with the following montage.

‑‑‑ Audio clip / Clip audio

LISTNUM 95 \l 16570             MR. SINCLAIR:  Oldies 106 will also feature specialized nostalgia programming for the 45 plus demographic, such as big band music from the '40s.  There will also be an album component to the station featuring classic albums by the biggest artists of the '50s and '60s.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16571             In creating even more musical diversity, CJVR will produce in studio two special musical programs, namely The Great Canadian Song Book and Canadian Folk, both of which will profile and play the music of Canadian pop and rock artists of the past, as well as Canadian folk music artists.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16572             MR. GEMMELL:  Madam Chair, with respect to spoken word programming, the IRS study noted that listener needs and preferences included local news, weather, road conditions and closures, school closings and bus cancellations, updates on local community events and activities, national news and sports scores.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16573             On the cultural side, Saskatoon residents expressed interest in updates on the entertainment scene and cultural events, the exposure and promotion of local Canadian artists and performers and a reflection of local history, people, events, cultural heritage and lifestyle programs and features.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16574             That beginning with daily news coverage, Classic 89 will bring an independent news voice to the Saskatoon market that will increase diversity and provide an alternative perspective on issues and events of direct relevance and interest to residents throughout the coverage area.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16575             Classic 89 will employ a news director and four full‑time news reporters.  The station will broadcast local news at the top of the hour and every half hour in the mornings, and again during selected hours throughout the day, as well as on weekends.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16576             In all, the station will provide over five hours of scheduled newscasts per week, plus additional surveillance material when necessary and as it becomes available.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16577             MR. SINGER:  Madam Chair, CJVR will reach out in an inclusive fashion to the rapidly growing Aboriginal population, and the increasing number of ethnic groups, among others, and through a series of unique spoken word initiatives, build bridges of understanding between people by giving them a radio voice.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16578             This will be achieved a number of ways, including the recruitment of a network of correspondents who will assist in providing Classic 89 with information on events and activities specific to their own communities.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16579             These 90‑second spots known as Community Connections will be featured four times daily, along with Culturally Speaking information snippets on current and upcoming events and activities that will be highlighted ever hour.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16580             Included among the special features that will be incorporated daily into Classic 89's program schedule are such programs as Saskatoon Lifestyle, City Beat, Live from the U of S, School of the Day and Listener Feedback.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16581             CJVR, in recognition of the dramatic growth of the Aboriginal communities in both Saskatoon and Regina, felt it was important that initiatives be taken to help foster greater understanding and communication between Aboriginals and the broader community.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16582             As such CJVR has retained the services of Mr. Harrison Thunderchild, a distinguished member of the Aboriginal community, an educator, and a prominent member of the Office of the Treaty Commission Speakers Bureau.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16583             Mr. Thunderchild has agreed to serve as CJVR's Aboriginal special program coordinator.  In this capacity he will help produce and host a series of features to be known as The Bridge.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16584             These two‑minute features will run twice daily and share the Aboriginal community's culture, highlight its successes, and help foster greater understanding and awareness of Native issues and concerns.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16585             In addition, Mr. Thunderchild will contribute to a special 15‑minute segment on the Sunday news magazine show, A Saskatoon Perspective, which runs on Oldies 106.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16586             MR. GEMMELL:  Madam Chair and Commissioners, Oldies 106 in addition to delivering great music, will provide it's currently underserved 45‑54 audience with a blend of locally relevant spoken word programming that will address their news and informational priorities.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16587             Further to the news, information and special features programs that Oldies 106 will share with Classic 89, there are a number of special features that are exclusive to Oldies 106.  These include Prairie Mosaics, This Week on Campus, Huskies Football, This Week in Politics and Stock Market Report.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16588             As well, the news magazine show, A Saskatoon Perspective, is a 60‑minute production that will run Sundays at 11 a.m.  The program will feature four 15‑minute segments.  One segment will be devoted to the Aboriginal community, a second to Saskatoon's diverse ethnic communities, a third to the business community, and the fourth will be an omnibus component.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16589             MR. FABRO:  Madam Chair, in our applications for Saskatoon and Regina, CJVR and my family made an unprecedented level of direct expenditures on Canadian talent initiatives across the diverse field of educational, cultural and music driven endeavours.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16590             Approval of Classic 89 and Oldies 106 will yield a minimum of $3 million in direct expenditures, along with an indirect on‑air expenditure budget of 2 million.  The combined 5 million in direct and indirect expenditures will have a profoundly beneficial impact on Saskatchewan talent at all levels for years to come.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16591             While my family is proud of CJVR's achievements for Canadian talent to this point, approval of our Saskatoon and Regina applications will result in higher expenditure levels and a broadened mandate for CJVR to do its very best for Saskatchewan and Canada's developing young talent.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16592             MR. SINGER:  Madam Chair, I would draw attention to the significant commitment that CJVR has made to the Aboriginal community through dedicated scholarship funds for broadcast journalism and music in both the Saskatoon and Regina markets.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16593             In Saskatoon, for example, CJVR will establish a minimum of $535,000 in Aboriginal scholarships. Of this amount 365,000 will be allocated to broadcast journalism scholarships, and 170,000 will go to the music scholarship fund.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16594             Given the dramatic growth of the Aboriginal population in Saskatchewan, it is vital that young Aboriginals receive the necessary training and education to ensure their full participation in the economic activities of Saskatoon, Regina and elsewhere.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16595             It was essentially within that spirit that CJVR, in consultation with Aboriginal educators like Mr. Thunderchild, among others, has developed an Aboriginal scholarship fund to assist those qualified students interested in pursuing careers in broadcast journalism and music in realizing their objectives.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16596             To ensure the Aboriginal scholarship fund yields maximum benefits to the Aboriginal community, CJVR will work closely with community leaders, educators and organizations relative to the Aboriginal community for ongoing advice and direction.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16597             MR. FABRO:  Madam Chair, CJVR's Aboriginal scholarship objective is very much in keeping with my family's passion and commitment to help make a difference in the lives of talented young Canadians.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16598             This is further exemplified by the Horizons Unlimited initiative which is founded on the basic philosophy that talented youth should not have their goals and dreams limited or sidetracked by a lack of resources and proper mentoring.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16599             Through the financial assistance and attendant support structure inherent within Horizons Unlimited, Saskatchewan's talented youth, through hard work and commitment, can live their dreams in the realization that indeed their horizons can be unlimited.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16600             The total direct expenditure budget, based on approval of both Classic 89 and Oldies 106 totals $3 million as follows:

‑ Aboriginal scholarships $535,000

‑ University of Saskatchewan department of music program $307,500

‑ U of R Faculty of Arts journalism $452,500

‑ Horizons Unlimited $586,000

‑ Music Business 101 $172,000

‑ Opening Acts $492,000

‑ FACTOR/CAB Talent Fund $120,000

‑ Saskatoon Folk Fest $99,000

‑ Saskatoon Symphony $169,000

‑ the Saskatchewan Recording Industry Association $67,000.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16601             MR. MARCOUX:  Madam Chair, a recent supplement in the Globe and Mail stated, "Saskatchewan's landscape may be flat, but its economy is clearly on a roll."  And headlines like "Hi‑yo Silver, Saskatoon's economy among best in country," which appeared in the September 15th addition of the Star Phoenix, and "Saskatchewan Economy Resources Are Red Hot," appearing in yesterday's Leader Post reflect the strength of Saskatchewan's economy.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16602             Some comments, while ruling the day for doomsayers brigade, succinctly describes the momentum of Saskatchewan's diversified economy as evidenced by the fact that its economic growth rate has outpaced the national average for three consecutive years according to Stats Canada.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16603             The local market economies of Saskatoon and Regina, inextricably linked to Saskatchewan's provincial economy, are buoyant in terms of economic growth and activity.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16604             Both cities are beneficiaries of the rural to urban population shift that is occurring, and likely to continue at the expense of many small rural communities, like those our Melfort stations are dependent on for their revenue.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16605             An examination of some of the key economic indicators relative to Saskatoon in terms of its population, retail sales, read GDP growth and employment rates, among others, are all heading in the right direction, along with healthy forecasts for continued growth.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16606             MR. GEMMELL:  With respect to the local broadcast economy, CJVR concluded that 16 percent or 16.64 million of the $104 million of available advertising revenues in the Saskatoon market should be obtainable by all local radio. We believe the six existing stations currently garner about 14.5 million and operate profitably.  This would leave about 2.14 million for our market entrant.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16607             Further to our market study, however, as noted in a report filed relative to these proceedings, of the entire province's radio advertising expenditures of 64 million, about 56 percent or 36 million is captured by all radio in Saskatoon and Regina.  Splitting the potential revenue based on the population proportions would be 46 percent Regina and 54 percent Saskatoon, or $16.6 million for Regina and $19.4 million in revenue for Saskatoon. Using these market figures, the available advertising dollars for a new entrant in Saskatoon would be closer to $3.4 million.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16608             MR. SINGER:  Madam Chair, based on the musical and spoken word programming initiatives for both Classic 89 and Oldies 106, should the Commission licence this dynamic duo of diversity, Saskatoon's 35 to 44 and 45 to 54 listenership spectrum's current status of being underserved will quickly and dramatically change.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16609             MR. FABRO:  Madam Chair and Commissioners, CJVR needs Saskatoon and Regina markets in order to meaningfully grow our business and realize our broadcasting objectives for Saskatchewan.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16610             We have not come to this hearing with a small broadcaster's cap in hand, rather we have come forward with major commitments that are commensurate with opportunities and responsibilities that are inherent within what is ‑‑ what CJVR is requesting from the Commission.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16611             On behalf of my CJVR colleagues and the Fabro family, we wish to thank you for the opportunities this week to tell our story, and we respectfully ask for your approval of all our applications.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16612             I also want to thank the commission staff for the courtesy they extended to our team both before and during the hearing.  And finally, we wish you well in your deliberations and a safe trip home. Merci beaucoup.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16613             THE CHAIRPERSON:  It's a ten‑minute drive to my home, I love it.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16614             Mr. Fabro, we were talking, was it yesterday or the day before, in the Regina hearing, the Regina portion of the hearing, about what you would prefer.  And I thought you were going to ‑‑ are you ready to tell me what you're ‑‑ I know you're ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 16615             MR. FABRO:  Yes, we're ready.  We're ready to tell you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16616             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I know your wish list.  I know the Christmas wish list.  What would be ‑‑ what would be second best?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16617             MR. FABRO:  Well, let me put it this way.  Like I said to my colleagues, I think it was yesterday, that it's kind of like losing one of your children.  You're asking us to choose which child do you want to take away from us.  These are very dear and near to our heart.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16618             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Except it's really an economic issue too?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16619             MR. FABRO:  Yes, it is.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16620             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16621             MR. FABRO:  But if we were to put it this way, if you were to grant four licences obviously we would like two in each market.  If you were to grant three licences, we would like to have two in Saskatoon, one in Regina.  If you were to grant two licences, we would like to have one in Regina and one in Saskatoon.  And if you were to grant one licence overall, we would like to have one licence in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16622             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And in both scenario three and four, which licence would you ‑‑ which of the classic hits or oldies would you like?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16623             MR. FABRO:  We would choose classic hits.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16624             THE CHAIRPERSON:  In both circumstances?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16625             MR. FABRO:  In both scenarios, correct.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16626             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16627             MR. FABRO:  Classic rock, pardon me.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16628             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Classic ‑‑  yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16629             MR. FABRO:  We're both getting confused here.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 95 \l 16630             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The non‑oldies?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16631             MR. FABRO:  That's right

LISTNUM 95 \l 16632             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you've ‑‑ you're up to speed on this, on the programming now, and I don't really have to ask very many questions because you've got the ‑‑ where you're simulcasting or repeating it.  You're not necessarily simulcasting, are you?  For instance, the Week in Politics would be heard at different times?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16633             MR. SINGER:  Yes, that is correct.  And the programs, where possible, would be localized as well.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16634             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16635             MR. SINGER:  The main content would be ‑‑ would be common, but they would be produced by the local stations in each market.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16636             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay. So now I'm mixed up.  The Week in Politics, this wouldn't be the same Week in Politics as would be run on the Regina stations?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16637             MR. SINGER:  That is ‑‑ that is correct.  It would be a feature that's put together by your combined news departments, Regina and Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16638             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, okay.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16639             MR. SINGER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16640             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay. So now ‑‑ okay, so the Week in Politics would be shown then on all four stations, four proposed stations, and would be common to all four stations?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16641             MR. SINGER:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16642             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay. Is that true of any other spoken word programming?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16643             MR. SINGER:  I think that would be the only one on here that would be common to the ‑‑ to all four.  Now, the same features, type of features, would be running in both markets, but again, they would be produced by the various people.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16644             THE CHAIRPERSON:  By either Saskatoon for Saskatoon ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 16645             MR. SINGER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16646             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ and Regina for Regina?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16647             MR. SINGER:  But there would be a sharing of these as well, because our philosophy is that there is information of events and things going on in Regina that we would certainly share with the Saskatoon audience.  I think there's ‑‑ there's a lot of similarities between these two markets.  I'm one of those transplanted people that grew up in Saskatoon, spent 22 years in Regina.  I always had an interest in my ‑‑ what was going on at home when I lived in Regina.  So certainly we see an opportunity here to cross‑promote things and happenings in either city.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16648             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But, I mean, you'd send the content down essentially by e‑mail, down or up, and they'd just use that information, wouldn't they?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16649             MR. SINGER:  Yes.  We ‑‑ as I say, we would share that information, and if it was needed we would certainly add a local element to it as well.  So it would be a combination of the two station's inputs to the production of those shows.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16650             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay. And if a single station, be it either classic or oldies, were licensed, you would still have the spoken word under the ‑‑ the various columns?  You would still have the spoken record under the classics and/or if you got the oldies, you'd have it under that column?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16651             MR. SINGER:  Yes, we would.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16652             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes. The news staff for two of them will consist of four and a half reporters; am I right on that, including a director?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16653             MR. SINGER:  I believe that's correct.  Linda ...?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16654             MS RHEAUME:  For a combo station it would be five.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16655             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Five?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16656             MS RHEAUME:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16657             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And for a single station?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16658             MS RHEAUME:  Three and a half.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16659             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Three and a half, okay.  If you had the dual stations, it would be the same newsroom, same newscast, and a single news director?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16660             MR. SINGER:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16661             THE CHAIRPERSON:  On classic hits, how much of the programming would be live to air preprogrammed locally?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16662             MR. SINGER:  The amount is the same as we discussed yesterday, 86 percent or 108 hours of our programming would be live, 18 hours would be voice tracked.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16663             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16664             MR. SINGER:  And that would be the same for ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 16665             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The oldies?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16666             MR. SINGER:  All four radio stations, Regina and Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16667             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay. And when would there be the voice tracking?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16668             MR. SINGER:  The voice tracking would be from ten ‑‑ weekdays, Monday through Friday, from 10 p.m. to midnight.  Also Saturday ten to midnight and then from 8 p.m. until midnight on Sunday.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16669             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right. And will you accept a COL to have a minimum of 108 hours live to air or locally produced programming during the broadcast week?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16670             MR. SINGER:  Yes.  Yes, we would.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16671             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay. Now, I guess when I was looking at your Regina station I was looking at the Huskies, and I was sort of asking myself ‑‑ the Huskies, for my colleagues' information, is the U of S football team and hockey team and all of them are called Huskies.  It would certainly be more relevant, I know you've got the rights until 2014?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16672             MR. SINGER:  14, yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16673             THE CHAIRPERSON:  It would be more relevant to Saskatoon than to Regina, wouldn't it?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16674             MR. SINGER:  Well, you know, that's an interesting question, because when we first started with the Huskies broadcasts more than ten years ago, there was quite a few asked me why the heck would a station in Melfort want to do the Huskies football broadcasts?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16675             If you look at the rosters of these teams, they're young talented athletes that grew up all over Saskatchewan, and there's a tremendous feedback on ‑‑ of appreciation for broadcasting these games.  These young players' families are all over the province and all over the world actually.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16676             There's also the alumni.  We get constant feedback from U of S Huskies alumni saying thanks for putting these games on.  I think if you attended the University of Saskatchewan, no matter where you live, you're still a Huskies fan.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16677             The other point, Madam Commissioner ‑‑ Madam Chair, is that to our knowledge the Regina college team games are broadcast in Regina by one of the incumbent stations.  So this would offer some balance, and certainly I know that probably in the City of Regina there's probably more Regina fans, but again, it's ‑‑ we look at it as an opportunity to broadcast those games for the other reasons.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16678             And should ‑‑ now just back to your point should we be given ‑‑ our intention is to run those Huskies broadcasts on our AM in Melfort where it originates, on our oldies FM in Saskatoon, and our oldies in Regina.  If we ‑‑ now, if we were only given the one licence and it was classic rock, we would certainly consider putting those names on the licence that we were granted.  So ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 16679             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, you did the same this time, Mr. Singer, on 7.2 in the application, you ticked $3,000 to the CAB and in addition.  So I take it that your answer in this case is the same as last time?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16680             MR. SINGER:  Yes, it is. That was our error, and we have obviously designated those funds to the CAB or to the FACTOR.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16681             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And since we spoke the other day, have you had an opportunity to look at the FNUC curriculum to see if they're ‑‑ if you would make it eligible for a student attending FNUC to get the scholarships?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16682             MR. SINGER:  Yes, we have, Madam Chair.  And in further discussion with our future Aboriginal coordinator, Mr. Thunderchild, Harrison has indicated to us that there are programs there that could be considered as prejournalism.  We certainly have to do some further investigation, but I think primarily we ‑‑ we are very interested in working with FNUC to help us to recruit and identify who some possible students would be that could be recipients of these ‑‑ of these funds for journalism or music studies.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16683             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And have you looked at the SIIT curriculum in Saskatoon to see if again there could be some eligibility for that?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16684             MR. SINGER:  We ‑‑ that's another area we have spoken about, and we said we certainly would pursue that as well because I think we want to make this as broad based as possible.  We don't want to shut out any opportunities for some Aboriginal students to have access to these opportunities.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16685             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes. Because I have to tell you, I mean, if I was Aboriginal and I was living in Regina, my first choice would be to go to FNUC rather than the U of R, clearly.  I mean ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 16686             MR. SINGER:  We understand that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16687             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, I want to go back to the discussion we had a couple of days ago.  I find it difficult to have exclusive Aboriginal scholarships and then scholarships that are non‑Aboriginal.  Would you find it acceptable to consider them all together and say ‑‑ and I don't know the proportion of which, but say a minimum of which shall go to ‑‑ and I'll give you an example.  You've got Aboriginal scholarships, then you've got music and U of R journalism. And I'm going to say, let's say, one dollar is assigned to each.  If you lumped them together and said $3 was to go to either U of S music, journalism scholarships at the U of R and/or FNUC, with ‑‑ one of which ‑‑ a minimum of one of which, to be given mandatorily to an Aboriginal?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16688             MR. SINGER:  I think the ratio is actually higher than that the way we have it set up.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16689             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I know, but I'm just using ‑‑ the concept is rather than excluding Aboriginals, you've got one for Aboriginals and then two more for non‑Aboriginals, which I find hard to deal with.  Would you accept that they would be the total with a minimum amount per month to go to Aboriginals, and in that way they would not be foreclosed if they were ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 16690             MR. SINGER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16691             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ better than anybody else to get more.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16692             MR. SINGER:  Yes.  I don't have a problem with that.  Our intention here was to earmark a significant amount of dollars that would only be available to the Aboriginals.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16693             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16694             MR. SINGER:  And the way we have structured ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 16695             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But you wouldn't want to foreclose them from more?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16696             MR. SINGER:  No.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16697             THE CHAIRPERSON:  If they indeed were, you know, qualified for more, would you?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16698             MR. SINGER:  No, we wouldn't want to do that.  And I think if you look at the ‑‑ and I can file this.  I've done a spreadsheet of the comparisons of the two initiatives, Aboriginal and non‑Aboriginal, I'd be happy to file a copy of that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16699             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yeah, well, we will be discussing, going right through when we get there.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16700             MR. FABRO:  Okay.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16701             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am not ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 16702             MR. FABRO:  I think what you're saying, Madam Chair, is that the minimum would be what we presented, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the maximum, as simply as that, in terms of ‑‑ what you're saying, if I understand you, is that the Aboriginal scholarship that we've proposed, there's no maximum, but there is a minimum?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16703             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's right. You would tie all three of them together ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 16704             MR. FABRO:  Right.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16705             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ and say there would be a minimum amount that would go to an Aboriginal.  But, I mean, one of these days ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 16706             MR. FABRO:  No, I agree. I think that's a great idea.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16707             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes. Now, can I shorten this up by saying the number and the amount of scholarships are the same as in the Regina application?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16708             MR. SINGER:  The scholarships are increments of $2,500, so I would have to look up the figures. Again, our commitments between ‑‑ in Regina are somewhat less overall because our revenue pictures are projected as less. So there are some differences. They're slight.  But we worked this plan on the basis of increments of $2,500 each.  So, as I say, the initiatives in Regina will be a little bit less in terms of the total seven‑year commitment.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16709             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay. So we can figure out the number by dividing by 2,500 for each?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16710             MR. SINGER:  Correct.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16711             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay. My next question is, you know, it's sort of like what if you, you know, called a meeting and nobody showed up? What happens if you don't have enough applicants for the money in any given year?  Because I don't know if you figured ‑‑ if you've heard around the room, when Missinipi can't find people to work for them, and APTN I know has looks and they get the cream of the crop, it's difficult to find Aboriginals who are interested in, you know, going and pursuing a career in journalism or ‑‑ I mean, some are, and/or broadcasting.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16712             MR. SINGER:  Yes. Well, I guess we will only find that out by trying these initiatives, but I can tell you that we certainly would be quite flexible in seeing what we could do.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16713             And I'd like to perhaps just give Mr. Thunderchild an opportunity, and certainly we would consult with Harrison as to his ideas, and maybe he has some right now and I'll give him a chance to respond to that, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16714             MR. THUNDERCHILD:  Thank you, Ken.  Madam Chair, good afternoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16715             I would like to answer that by stating that the area of communications and that is a field of discipline that has recently opened up, you know, thanks to APTN and NBC radio and the likes and that.  There's a radio station out of Alberta.  And what we've done in this with the Aboriginal scholarship was we've conducted research through word of mouth, through the different institutions that specialize in communication.  I am a product of the Aboriginal education program, communication program, out of Edmonton, which was under the umbrella of a station out of Lac la Biche.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16716             Now, in saying that, with the creation of APTN network, we have students that are just finding out that there are more radio, journalism, broadcasting opportunities that are being made available.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16717             And I will speak from experience.  Last night, Madam Chair, I was at the casino where I was approached, yes, how can I get into broadcast journalism?  And these are professional background First Nation people from Manitoba that approached us.  So there is definitely ‑‑ you have to go to the proper institutions and get your contacts in line with the prospect graduates for that coming year and then you go from there.  It's like planting a seed and harvesting, you know, at harvest time.  And we would approach that in the same manner, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16718             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mine was more sort of a legal question.  Like, what if you didn't have enough applicants?  And would the money roll over into the next year?  That's my point.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16719             MR. SINGER:  That would be I think a first option.  The other thing is if there was an imbalance and we ‑‑ let's say there weren't enough applicants for the music side of the equation, we could also consider moving some ‑‑ more of the music funding into the journalism side.  I think the idea here is we really want to approach this on the basis of is it working and is it doing everything we thought it would do?  And if there are adjustments along the way, we're going to find other Aboriginal initiatives that qualify under the CTD definition.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16720             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You're tied in by COL with these things, you recognize?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16721             MR. SINGER:  Well, I recognize ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 16722             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And they're very specific.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16723             MR. SINGER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16724             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And these are your specific ‑‑ so you can't take money out of a scholarship program for music scholarships and put it into journalism.  If that's ‑‑ it you're proposing that, then you have to be far more general in the way you propose it.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16725             MR. SINGER:  Okay. Well, I guess, of course, we would consult with the CRTC to make changes if it was necessary, if we felt it wasn't working.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16726             THE CHAIRPERSON:  No consulting, there's an application involved.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16727             MR. SINGER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16728             THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you want to move one penny you have to come to us.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16729             MR. SINGER:  Mmhmm.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16730             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So ‑‑ and how are the recipients going to be chosen?  You said last time it would be the university and you. Well, now if we've got FNUC involved, and maybe SIIT, how are you going to choose the recipients?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16731             MR. SINGER:  Well, I think working with those institutional ‑‑ or with those educational institutions, we would develop a criteria certainly using their input as to the best way to set the criteria and the guidelines for qualifying students.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16732             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay. Horizon's Unlimited, similar to Regina?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16733             MR. SINGER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16734             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mmhmm. And how are you going to ensure that the monies are going to go to eligible CTD?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16735             MR. SINGER:  Once again we are working with the Saskatchewan Music Educators Association on this initiative and we would certainly structure a very definite guideline as to how the funds are ‑‑ are earmarked, and also a reporting process that we're kept in the loop as to the dollars being used and distributed.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16736             And I have Joan Therens with us on our panel today who could certainly speak to that as well.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16737             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We discussed it last time though.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16738             MR. SINGER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16739             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it's probably not ‑‑ Saskatoon Folk Fest, again how are you going to ensure it's eligible CTD?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16740             MR. SINGER:  The Folk Fest Society itself does set up grants for the operation of the various pavilions.  And in our discussions with them we did identify these would clearly have to be ‑‑ our funds would clearly have to be used to pay direct dollars to the musical entertainment that was going to be there.  So we would have a full report as to who the groups were, what they were paid.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16741             THE CHAIRPERSON:  FACTOR, again the same issue as to it being directed to Saskatoon.  And you were to get documentation about that, as to whether or not the monies were incremental and as to whether or not they would roll over into the general fund. And if you cannot get that commitment from FACTOR you would be redirecting ‑‑ redirecting it?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16742             MR. SINGER:  Yes, we would.  And we've had discussion with FACTOR in the last day, and we are awaiting such a letter. And they are aware that if they cannot meet those three criteria, that we will look at an alternative way to use that money.  And it would be directed ‑‑ our plan today is that it would go into the SRIA, Saskatchewan Reporting Industry fund.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16743             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay. Opening Act, again identical to Regina in terms of ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 16744             MR. SINGER:  Identical concept, different venues, different bands.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16745             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes. And it's going to be on the classic rock if it fits with the format; is that the idea?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16746             MR. SINGER:  Yes, that is correct.  If we were not granted the classic rock format, we would have to look at how we could retool that.  It has a better fit with Classic Rock than it does with oldies.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16747             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Indeed, yes. Music business 101, the breakdown is the same?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16748             MR. SINGER:  Yes, it is.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16749             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16750             MR. SINGER:  Well, the break ‑‑ actually, the breakdown is a percentage of the total.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16751             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16752             MR. SINGER:  I believe we did file that breakdown, but it ‑‑ I can quickly give it to you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16753             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, you did for Regina.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16754             MR. SINGER:  Yes. Basically the formula is that 75 percent of the ‑‑ the annual initiative would be dedicated to fees paid to the actual industry professionals.  15 percent would be facility rental.  These are fairly ‑‑ estimates at this point, but 5 percent would be equipment rental and another 5 percent would be additional promotions, such as posters, any non ‑‑ any advertising outside what we'd be providing on the air, which would be significant on the air.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16755             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mmhmm. And you are considering still the possibility of working with SRIA?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16756             MR. SINGER:  Yes, we are, definitely.  We see that as an opportunity to just strengthen a program they already have, and they agree with that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16757             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mmhmm, okay. Mr. Sinclair, Classics, percentage of duplication, especially with Rock 102?  Page 87 of your supplementary brief.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16758             MR. SINCLAIR:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16759             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Percentage? Have you got a percentage?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16760             MR. SINCLAIR:  Yes, Madam Chair.  23 percent.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16761             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Duplication? Is that the highest in terms of duplication with any of the other incumbents?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16762             MR. SINCLAIR:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16763             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay. The demographic?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16764             MR. SINCLAIR:  For our Classic Rock proposed station?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16765             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16766             MR. SINCLAIR:  Yes. 35 to 44.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16767             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The core?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16768             MR. SINCLAIR:  The target is 38.

LISTNUM 95 \l 16769             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Median is 38?

LISTNUM 95 \l 16770