TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES AVANT

                CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

                          SUBJECT:

VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

Delta Regina                          Delta Regina

1919 Saskatchewan Drive               1919, promenade Saskatchewan

Regina, Saskatchewan                  Regina, Saskatchewan

November 3, 2006                      le 3 novembre 2006

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

                 Canadian Radio‑television and

                 Telecommunications Commission

              Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

                 télécommunications canadiennes

                   Transcript / Transcription

                VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /

              PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

BEFORE / DEVANT:

Barbara Cram                      Chairperson / Présidente

Michel Arpin                      Vice-Chair, Broadcasting / Vice‑président, radiodiffusion

Rita Cugini                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Ronald Williams                   Commissioner / Conseiller

Joan Pennefather                  Commissioner / Conseillère

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTES:

Chantal Boulet                    Secretary / Secrétaire

Leanne Bennett                    Legal Counsel /

Conseillère juridique

Lyne Cape                         Hearing Manager /

Gérante de l'audience

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

Delta Regina                      Delta Regina

1919 Saskatchewan Drive           1919, promenade Saskatchewan

Regina, Saskatchewan              Regina, Saskatchewan

November 3, 2006                  le 3 novembre 2006

                           - iv -

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

                                                 PAGE / PARA

SASKATOON - PHASE III

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

629112 Saskatchewan Limited

Communications Management Inc.

Rawlco Radio Limited                             1563 / 7722

The Secret Santa Foundation                      1609 / 7930

Lisa Rendall                                     1616 / 7960

APTN, Jean LaRose

Amanda Nepper                                    1625 / 7998

Saskatoon Indian & Metis Friendship Centre       1646 / 8075

Missinipi Broadcasting Corporation               1651 / 8117

Robert A. Merasty                                1671 / 8211

Joe Duquette High School                         1677 / 8244

SASKATOON - PHASE IV

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting Ltd.                1685 / 8276

Aboriginal Voices Radio (AVR)                    1687 / 8287

Radio CJVR Ltd.                                  1692 / 8308

Touch Canada Broadcasting Inc.                   1697 / 8331

Standard Radio Inc.                              1698 / 8336

Harvard Broadcasting Inc.                        1700 / 8350

Newcap Inc.                                      1703 / 8363

                           - v -

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

                                                 PAGE / PARA

AVR RENEWALS

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

Aboriginal Voices Radio (AVR)                    1710 / 8394

         Regina, Saskatchewan / Regina (Saskatchewan)

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Friday, November 3, 2006

    at 0830 / L'audience reprend le vendredi

    3 novembre 2006 à 0830

LISTNUM 95 \l 1 \s 77147714             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17715             Well, here it is, Gainer is not going just to sit in a seat.  He wants to be on the side ‑‑ he wants to be, you know, down on the floor, down there.  Now, it didn't help that one of our own players said he shouldn't go because he doesn't wear pants.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17716             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17717             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17718             We are now ready to proceed to Phase III of the process in which other parties appear in the order set out in the agenda to present their intervention.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17719             I would now call on the first three appearing interveners to appear as a panel.  Mr. Elmer Hildebrand as President of company 629112 Saskatchewan Limited ‑‑ and this is a correction from the agenda on which we indicated Golden West Broadcasting, Communications Management Inc., and Rawlco Radio Limited.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17720             You will have 20 minutes for the presentation.  I understand Ms Pamela Leyland for Rawlco Radio will be starting.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17721             Please go ahead.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 95 \l 17722             MS LEYLAND:  Good morning, Madam Chair, members of the Commission.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17723             We're before you once again, this time to talk to you about Saskatoon.  My name is Pam Leyland, President of Rawlco Radio.  With me today are Gordon Rawlinson, CEO of Rawlco, Doug Pringle, Rawlco's Director of Programming, and some new members of our panel from Saskatoon.  Marianne Vibert is our Director of Promotions and Community Relations.  Marianne has been with us for 22 years and does an amazing job of connecting our stations to the community.  She's sitting behind me and to my right.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17724             To Marianne's left is Jamie Wall who manages our Saskatoon stations.  Jamie started with us as an announcer then became Music Director, then Program Director, and now Manager.  Jamie has been with us for 17 years.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17725             Next to Jamie is Sandee Reed, the Sales Manager of News Talk 650 CKOM.  Sandee knows the business community in Saskatoon extremely well.  She's been with Rawlco for 19 years.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17726             Finally we have Kate Peardon, News Director of News Talk 650 CKON.  Kate is one of the stars of our news operation in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17727             Ken.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17728             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  I'm Ken Goldstein, President of Communications Management Inc.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17729             MR. HILDEBRAND:  My name is Elmer Hildebrand, I'm the President of 629112 Saskatchewan Limited, operators of three radio stations in Saskatoon.  With me are to my right Vic Dubois, General Manager, long time resident of Saskatoon.  And to my left, Ken McFarlane, General Sales Manager for our radio stations.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17730             Pam.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17731             MS LEYLAND:  We're here to talk to you about Saskatoon, but before we begin it's Friday morning, you've had a really long week, and we have a little something to play for you.  It's a song about Saskatchewan, written and produced by a couple of our very creative staff in Saskatoon.  Please listen closely, I think you will get a kick out of the lyrics.

‑‑‑ Audio clip / Clip audio

LISTNUM 95 \l 17732             MS LEYLAND:  Again, welcome to Saskatchewan.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17733             Despite that low blow in the song about Gordon's handwriting, I do want to say a bit about the letters that were submitted as part of our intervention.  We asked our staff to go out into the community and talk to people they knew who were with community organizations and to local businesses who advertised on the stations.  There was no pressure,  there was no arm twisting.  We just wanted to know what they thought of another station possibly coming to Saskatoon.  We said if they had an opinion and they wanted to express it to the Commission to write a letter and say what they thought of the idea.  The bottom line is they said how they feel.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17734             Community organizations and businesses have real concerns about another station coming to Saskatoon.  We told them we would help convey their message to the Commission so that their voices could play a part in the decision‑making process.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17735             We also wanted the people who listen to radio in Saskatoon to have a voice.  We had an independent research survey done to try and find out what they thought of radio in Saskatoon and whether they felt there was a need for an additional musical choice.  What they told us was that they liked the radio they have and they had no problem listening to the music they like.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17736             So we feel that as well as looking at economic indicators as criteria for determining if the city will benefit from another radio station, the feelings of the people, the listeners, should be considered.  It's the public, the listeners, who are the ones that will be affected by your decision.  What we have tried to do through our interventions in Regina and Saskatoon is to give them a chance to have a voice.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17737             MR. RAWLINSON:  You know, this is very different.  We'd never intervened against other applicants.  In my 35 years in radio I think this is the first time that we have done it.  Radio in Saskatchewan is still very good.  It's not big business.  My father used to say, put so much local information on the radio that people will be afraid to tune out because they might miss something.  You know, I'm as big a booster of Saskatoon and Saskatchewan as anyone.  I care about Regina and Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17738             Pam and her team really do run excellent full service radio stations, so why are expenses so high, because our service is very good and News Talk done very well, with a very high level of local, is very expensive.  In fact, right now there is a high level of service from both companies.  I just have a couple more comments.  In Saskatoon we think every potential advertiser is known and called on.  There are no hidden pockets of potential new money.  We really do cover all the bases and do an excellent job of sales.  My estimate would be that at least 80 percent of the advertisers for a new station will come from the existing six stations.  On this note, none of the applicants are proposing music that is really different and all of the listeners will come from the existing stations.  I can virtually guarantee there will be no increase in total tuning in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17739             We know how to do lean and mean radio, but I don't like it at all.  It takes away everything I like about radio.  It starts us down a slippery slope to juke box radio.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17740             So, Madam Chair, and members of the Commission, this is the most important thing that I want to leave you with.  No matter what you decide, Rawlco will continue to do its utmost to serve Saskatoon, and Regina for that matter, to the very best of our ability.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17741             Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17742             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Madam Chair, and Commissioners, I have taken to heart your admonitions and fore‑brevity.  As we stated earlier in this hearing, there is one fundamental question that needs to be addressed.  Do the economic indicators tell us that the market is capable of supporting a new commercial radio station?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17743             Based on the information summarized in our report, we believe that the economic indicators for the Saskatoon Radio market are not favourable to the licensing of any new commercial radio stations at this time.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17744             I'm going to very briefly touch on the key indicators.  Population, the Conference Board is projecting that Saskatoon's population will grow by just two and a half percent over the five years from 2005 to 2010.  That is better than Regina, but still significantly lower than the comparable growth rate for Canada.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17745             Second, GDP.  The Conference Board is predicting that the real GDP growth for Saskatoon in 2009 and 2010 will be half of what it was in 2005.  For Canada the real GDP growth rate is projected to be slightly higher in 2010 than it was in 2005.  By 2010 the real GDP growth rate for Saskatoon is projected to be about 20 percent lower than the growth rate for Canada.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17746             Retail sales.  Using data for Saskatoon, again from the Conference Board we see that the growth rate for retail sales spiked in 2005 and is projected to be lower from 2008 to 2010.  And as I noted previously, the recent reduction of the provincial sales tax from 7 percent to 5 percent may have a modest, but short‑term effect.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17747             Fourth, radio revenues.  From 1996 to 2003 private radio revenues in Saskatoon grew more slowly than was the case for radio in Canada.  From 2003 to 2005, there was a brief growth spurt, however, based on the data for 2006 that we have seen, the growth spurt is over and private radio in Saskatoon, again, has a lower growth rate than radio across Canada.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17748             And fifth and final, radio profitability.  And as noted in our report, pBIT levels in Saskatoon Radio are substantially lower than the Canadian average.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17749             Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17750             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Madam Chair, Commissioners.  First of all, maybe some history on radio in Saskatoon would be in order.  Generally we all have relatively short memories, and the Commission changes, Commission staff changes, so the following may not be well‑known to today's Commission.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17751             Only a few years ago the radio picture in Saskatoon was in a shambles.  One station was in bankruptcy and another station was floundering like a fish out of water creating havoc in the market by trying to sell ads for rates du jour.  Program changes done poorly were frequent and generally radio did not have a very good reputation in the city.  At that time you could not have ‑‑ you could not have garnered the great many letters of support that you have seen filed with the Commission for this hearing.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17752             And I wonder, where were all the applicants you have heard from for the Saskatoon market at that time?  They could have purchased existing stations at the stress prices any time.  Part of the problem then was that the Commission of the day had issued a licence to someone who never ever worked at a radio station, but because he said, "It has always been my dream to have a radio station," he was granted licence.  His dream came true and a nightmare followed.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17753             I ended up buying both of these two stations in Saskatoon and we have been able to bring to the city a degree of professionalism that has elevated the stature of radio dramatically.  As the Commission knows, all of this comes at tremendous cost and a lot of patience, and those of you that know me, I have a lot of patience.  However, any new station in Saskatoon will dramatically impact our financial wellbeing.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17754             As the Commission knows, my group of stations in Saskatoon are currently incurring losses each year, so even though the stations are losing money, I don't like it, but I can sustain it for now, but larger losses would not be sustainable.  The majority of commercial radio stations in Saskatoon, both AM and FM, have suffered financial difficulties over the years, several times have had change of ownership, and all the stand‑alone radio stations have been bought and sold, they couldn't sustain themselves.  So Saskatoon is not and has not been a booming radio market.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17755             We have maintained our service to the community at very high levels as is clearly demonstrated by all the letters that you have already seen.  To do full service radio requires a lot of creative writers, sales reps, producers, news people, announcers, promotion people, and on and on it goes.  You can do high cost full service radio or low marginal radio service.  And again, as the Commission knows, my choice is always to do full service radio.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17756             We have contributed one million dollars in Canadian talent development in our first licensed term at Magic, our newest FM station.  We have also maintained a full service at CJWW, our heritage AM station, and have maintained the only country music format on FM at Hot 93.  And we are playing 40 percent Cancon on all three stations.  And we're playing a lot of Saskatchewan produced music.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17757             All three stations as a group complement very well the other radio stations in the market.  The existing Saskatoon Radio stations cover all the major formats and all age groups.  And, you know, no wonder every applicant is applying for a different format.  If there was an obvious hole in the market, several applicants would surely have applied for the same format.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17758             The Commission also knows in Saskatoon that Rawlco is a fierce competitor, but we have managed to carve out an audience and an advertiser loyalty that enabled us to show annual modest sales growth until 2005, however, this growth stopped in 2006.  Our total sales in 2006 were lower than in 2005.  Much of the national business is disappearing.  The reason for this is described by Patrick Risson(ph), the President of CBS, in a letter to the Commission that national revenue in Saskatoon is down, and we would like to quote.  "The reason for this decline is due to the inelastic advertising budgets funding significant increase in demand and price in major markets, specifically Ottawa, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton and Toronto."  We have heard that Toronto radio billings are up 25 percent since 2003.  Much of that money comes from Saskatchewan.  As prices increase in Toronto, overall national budgets don't necessarily increase, so in order to satisfy those markets, Saskatoon, Regina budgets are decreased, not to mention other markets in Saskatchewan.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17759             We don't see this trend changing anytime soon.  Patrick Risson goes on to say, "Our most relevant and important comment on these proceedings is that the addition of new radio stations in Saskatoon will not result in any new national advertising becoming available.  The money already there will just be split between more stations."

LISTNUM 95 \l 17760             The other thing that we have heard a number of times at the hearing is that, you know, there are a lot of new businesses coming to Saskatoon.  Well, to some extent that may be true, some of the big box stores are arriving.  The Home Depots, Wal‑Marts and Costcos, however, interestingly they don't spend any money on national advertising, and generally don't even spend local advertising money.  What they do do, they drive out of business altogether some of the smaller businesses that we normally would do business with.  So that means that our local revenues will also not go up because of big box stores.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17761             So to recap, we project continuing small losses for the next few years under current conditions.  I can sustain these losses and can commit to the Commission that no reduction in service is going to take place under the current landscape, and we will continue to make Canadian Talent Development contributions.  This, however, would change dramatically if the Commission were to license any new stations.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17762             Upon the appearance of a new applicant, the following would likely develop.  Rates would be cut and this would reduce our overall revenue going forward.  We would be forced to spend considerably more on promotion.  Our operating cost would increase due to the poaching of staff.  Available national money would be split further resulting in even greater reductions in revenue.  All of this will add up to dramatic increase in losses in my stations in Saskatoon, and if this happens we will have to reduce overall community service, delay planned upgrading of equipment and facilities.  The unintended consequences would see the City of Saskatoon getting a much more watered down radio service.  Right now the city is one of the best served in Canada.  This will be in jeopardy if the Commission renews any ‑‑ or issues any new licences prematurely.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17763             And we all have to remember Saskatchewan is not a growing province.  It is a province with a declining population.  Much as we would like to see it otherwise, we don't see it changing anytime soon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17764             Right now we have 13 radio stations in the city, six commercial stations, two CBC English, two CBC French, a community station, a religious station, and one Aboriginal repeater station.  With all that choice and all the choice on the Internet, iPod, CD, satellite, and so on, the public is not demanding more radio, and yet in a province of less than one million people, there are 33 commercial stations in Saskatchewan.  At that rate Calgary alone should have about 33 commercial stations, so I can see already that many of the applicants will want to reapply in Calgary.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17765             I find it amazing that in 1940 Saskatchewan was larger than Alberta and B.C.  We were the third most populated province in the country, and yet studies have stated that by 2030 there will actually be fewer people than there are now in Saskatchewan.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17766             So adding an additional station comes at a cost.  It will increase the costs of my stations, reduce our audiences and reduce our revenue.  Over time this has to impact the level of service we can provide.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17767             The question that needs to be asked, I guess, does the benefit of a little increased musical diversity outweigh the cost of reduced service in a smaller city like Saskatoon.  When I envision Saskatoon with a new seventh commercial radio station, I can't think of one thing that the city would be better for.  Overlicensing is therefore a real concern as it relates to Saskatoon, and overlicensing is something that I've talked to the Commission about before.  And that really concludes my intervention, and we'll be happy to answer any questions.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17768             Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17769             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17770             Commissioner Pennefather.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17771             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17772             Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17773             Mr. Hildebrand, I was following your notes, actually you've amplified, considerably, your written intervention, and I thank you for that.  So I don't have too many questions, but let me just be sure I heard you correctly.  In going through the lists of ‑‑ your list of what might happen if we were to license in Saskatoon, you used the word prematurely, and that would seem to mean to me that there might be a point where it would not be a case of overlicensing, but appropriate.  As you know, we've been discussing what issues the Commission should look at in making that assessment.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17774             I think you went through quite a few in your comments this morning, but could you just take us back to perhaps what you consider to be the most important areas we should look at when it wouldn't be premature?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17775             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Well, I think we've heard a fair bit in the last week, a variety of very rosy projections and rosy futures.  And for those of us who have been working in Saskatchewan for a long time, we've heard those often.  Every few years there is projections and predictions that you will take Saskatchewan through ‑‑ up to the moon, but, you know, that hasn't happened.  And so my premise would be that if all of those rosy productions that we've heard over the last week, you know, actually come about, then there would be no reason in four or five years that we could look at this again, and, you know, if, in fact, the City of Saskatoon becomes a city of 250,000 in the next few years, well, then dynamics would change.  But, you know, our history in the province has always been sort of slow and steady, slow and steady, but at the end of the day always a little lower.  And every year we seem to lose a few people, and especially in our younger demos, they move to Alberta or other places, and so we have, you know, a province that is very proud, we have a lot of people that are true blue Saskatchewanites and will support the province to their dying breath, but that doesn't give us the number of people, and as Ken Goldstein talked about the other day, even though there may be a few more people in Saskatoon this year than last year, mostly they moved from their farms in the surrounding areas.  It doesn't provide any more ears in the entire greater region.  And so that's what our biggest concern is.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17776             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I take that point, and I think you have itemized for us some of your concerns.  I heard also you used the term, it's not wise when the only gain would be a little more music diversity.  But surely we're looking at other, as you know, in our looking at our criteria for licensing other kinds of diversity.  What's your sense of the balance, though, in different voices, different editorial voices, different ownership, and is it not ‑‑ isn't it more than just a question of a little bit of music diversity?  Aren't there other more as important diversity points to be raised when we're looking at licensing or not?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17777             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Well, surely they could be looked at, but we have Global television here, we have CTV television, very strong newspaper.  We have four ‑‑ or two CBC radio stations, plus a community channel.  So there is a lot of diversity.  We also have some newspaper publications that are free delivery, so there is additional publications in the area that provide diversity as far as news and information.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17778             My premise is that the City of Saskatoon is very, very adequately served from all of those aspects.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17779             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Would your opinion be the same in terms of the Commission licensing a service or services such as the MBC or AVR or Touch or the other kinds of services that are before us?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17780             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Well ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 17781             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Difficult perhaps.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17782             MR. HILDEBRAND:  You know, I think it's difficult ‑‑ from what I was hearing on the Touch application, for example, and I appreciate the kind of music that they would be providing to a minority audience, but I found it interesting that when you're asking them about news, they were proposing to maybe hire news people once they had some more money.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17783             My premise is that in radio you have to have the news people before you get the audience.  So if you're not hiring news people right on the hop, I mean, you will never get the audience.  So news and information is an important part of the radio cycle, and from my perspective in the business, we spend a lot of money on those things up front with the knowledge that if we do it really well, we won't get the audience down the road.  And so we're investing money now to get some money back later.  And I found it odd that applicants would be saying, well, we'll add some news people later when we, you know, get our feet on the ground, and I think that's sort of not quite the way the radio works.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17784             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17785             Those are my questions, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17786             MR. RAWLINSON:  Excuse me, can I just jump in?  I know you were asking Mr. Hildebrand, but I just want to clarify our company's position.  We have no objection to licensing AVR or Missinipi in Regina, even though you're not talking about Regina, they're already here in Saskatoon and we're okay with Touch Broadcasting too, we don't object to those.  Our intervention is not against those applicants.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17787             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you, Madam chair.  Thank you, Mr. Rawlinson.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17788             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17789             Vice‑chair Arpin.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17790             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17791             Mr. Goldstein, you have been doing marketing ‑‑ not marketing, but market studies for other applicants over the years, and obviously one of the formula that has been looked at is one based on the retail sales.  Numerous applicants that we have heard yesterday were using a retail sales base formula to arrive at a given figure of market capacity.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17792             Based on your own experience, what is the market capacity ‑‑ advertising capacity of Saskatoon?  We have heard a lot of numbers yesterday, starting from 16 million up to 23 million available dollars for radio.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17793             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  I need some guidance from the Commission on this because I know the real number.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17794             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  But you know also the retail sales for Saskatoon and you know the formula.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17795             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Well, I wouldn't reduce it exactly to a formula.  There will be, obviously over time, linkages between retail sales and the advertising revenues, but they will change.  Mr. Hildebrand pointed out quite correctly why they might change as a big box store might take the place of a smaller merchant who would have bought locally, and now the big box store either doesn't use radio or uses it in a different way, and then you're into the whole national business.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17796             I get nervous about saying there's an automatic percentage of this or there's an automatic percentage of that, but the figure that I have for advertising revenue in Saskatoon is the same figure you have, and it would be up to the people sitting to my left whether they want that on the public record or not.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17797             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  I'm not looking to have actual numbers, because as you said I have numbers and we also learned yesterday that CJVR is also selling in Saskatoon and they have provided us with their sales that comes out of Saskatoon, which increases a bit the availability of money for radio in that market.  What I'm trying to see, and based on your own expertise, is that we have been presented with a fork, as I said, that goes from 16 million dollars towards 23 million dollars, and they all came and said that they were using a formula.  Now, since you ‑‑ it's your feel of expertise to do market study, so that's why I'm asking you, based on your own expertise, have you done the math to see where normally Saskatoon shall be ‑‑ advertising capacity shall be?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17798             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Well, I think you're correct, there were estimates ranging from 16 to 23 million, and none of the estimates were correct, which says something about formulas.  I think that you have to try to find the real numbers if you can, and some were too low, some were too high from that estimating routine that they did.  When you talk about the capacity in the market, I think in some cases I heard people saying, here is a number and that's the capacity and there is some money left over.  The fact is is that the sales in the market are the sales in the market.  And so if you have a sales figure, I'm not sure how you can say there is money left over from the sales figure.  I didn't understand that logic by some of the applicants who were saying we think that the stations are getting this much and we'll take this much of that and then simultaneously say, but we won't take it from them.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17799             Well, I'm not sure how they can take what's actually in the market without it coming from the people who are in the market, so it's not as if there is a capacity in the market of X and the current stations are only getting 82 percent of X, and somehow there is something left over.  The market is what the market is.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17800             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Could I jump in also with a comment?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17801             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Sure.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17802             MR. HILDEBRAND:  You know, too often we hear that there are formulas for this, and it has been my experience over the years that there are no formulas.  Radio is built by one listener at a time, and the advertising business is developed one advertiser at a time.  This is a huge painstakingly slow job, and, for example, we have heard that the retail sales growth in Saskatoon has been growing to whatever numbers you have heard this last week, yet the correlation is that national revenue in Saskatoon has gone down.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17803             Obviously just saying that these things work on formulas isn't a fact, and so I have often heard applicants say, you know, there is so much retail sales and automatically there is so much advertising revenue.  In my experience, advertising revenue is never automatic.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17804             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  We've also heard yesterday some applicants saying that, well, that they have visited retailers in the market, some will say, that are probably currently advertisers, and will be delighted to pay this and go with a third ‑‑ a third party, but some others, and that's what we heard, claim that they were not using radio at all, but will use the radio because the format they were proposing was more catering towards their clientele ‑‑ leading ‑‑ what it's telling us, even if you have ‑‑ come up, both of you, with support letters from your client that they are still ‑‑ there is still a certain number of retailer that either have money not spent or ‑‑ or have not yet been sought by ‑‑ by your reps.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17805             MR. HILDEBRAND:  I think that will always be the case.  You can always find somebody that, you know, says, well, sure, I can do this or I can do that.  To some extent that may be a little like consultants.  You can hire consultants and they will tell you exactly what you want to hear, and then you can hire them again and they will tell you something else.  I mean, they don't mind because they're just happy to get the fee.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17806             You know, so at the end of the day in our business, you know, it's just like when people come with an application saying from a business, you know, I will buy advertising on this station if they go on the air.  Well, I've seen many of those over the years, and when the station is on the air these folks aren't buying advertising because the advertising has to do something for the client.  The client has to be convinced that this is a good deal and that he will get some results, otherwise they're not buying.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17807             MR. RAWLINSON:  Madam Chair, can I just comment?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17808             I heard a number of applicants say they'd talked to people and then they're telling you the stories of what they'd heard, but there was actually very few letters written by clients saying, yes, they would like to buy additional advertising, whereas between the letters filed by our company and by Mr. Hildebrand's company there was over a couple hundred of letters talking about ‑‑ of clients talking about that they're happy, they don't want more radio stations, it makes it more difficult to buy, their advertising might become less effective, et cetera, et cetera.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17809             If you want to look at the hard evidence, the stuff that has been provided to you in writing, there is some conflicting evidence, but the ‑‑ I would say that the evidence supporting what we're saying is overwhelming compared to what's been filed with you on the other position as far as, you know, people actually ‑‑ where you have got ‑‑ you have heard directly from them as opposed to somebody saying, I talked to somebody.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17810             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you very much for your concern.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17811             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17812             Commissioner Cugina.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17813             COMMISSIONER CUGINA:  Ladies and gentlemen, good morning.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17814             Ms Leyland, I have a question for you.  Earlier this week when I asked you what were some of the factors you looked at when deciding to enter a new market?  One of the things you said, in fact, the first thing you said was musical diversity.  Again, earlier this week CJVR said that 22 percent of the Saskatoon population tunes in to out‑of‑market stations.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17815             My question is, how much weight should we give to the fact that more than one in five people in Saskatoon can't find, seeming, what they are looking for from Saskatoon Radio stations?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17816             MS LEYLAND:  First of all, that was the first time that I'd heard that piece of information, and I found it hard to believe, frankly, just from my experience working in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17817             MR. RAWLINSON:  Can I jump in, because ‑‑ can I give you the actual statistics?  I don't know where they got that figure, but 94.4 percent of the tuning in Saskatoon is to local radio stations, and that's just counting the six private stations and CBC and the community station.  It's probably higher than that if you add up, you know, the ‑‑ there is a couple of other stations that could be considered in there, but that's what it is.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17818             If they say there is 20 some percent, maybe they're talking about weekly reach that occasionally somebody tunes in to an out‑of‑market radio station, but the fact is the share of hours tuned is approximately 95 percent to local stations.  So they were giving you incorrect information.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17819             COMMISSIONER CUGINA:  Just so we have an apples to apples comparison, then, Mr. Rawlinson, what is the source of your information?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17820             MR. RAWLINSON:  This is BBM, the spring ‑‑ Spring 2006 BBM.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17821             COMMISSIONER CUGINA:  Okay.  Thank you very much.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17822             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Excuse me, if I might add something, I think I can clarify what was done there, I read their research.  They asked people to say what stations do you ever listen to, just for a minute or two minutes or whatever, and they got a figure of 20.6 percent in Regina and 21.6 percent in Saskatoon for people who might have tried a station on the Internet or tried a station somewhere, but that was out of a total of over 200 percent because people could answer more than one and they did not ask the people how long they spent with those stations, you know.  We have all had the experience of occasionally flicking around and saying, oh, what can I get here, what can I get there?  That doesn't mean you actually spent a lot of time with it, so they've essentially confused, I guess you might say, a reach figure and a tuning figure, and that isn't representative of tuning at all.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17823             COMMISSIONER CUGINA:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17824             I'm sure our able staff will be able to ‑‑ now that we have, like I say, an apples to apples comparison.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17825             Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17826             MR. RAWLINSON:  And the figure I quoted was 12 plus.  That was all people.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17827             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17828             Commissioner Williams.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17829             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  I think for the benefit of everybody, and I think that will confirm what Mr. Rawlinson just said, the out‑of‑market tuning is seven percent altogether, and I'm using your BBM Fall, 2005.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17830             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17831             Commissioner Williams.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17832             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  Good morning, panelists.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17833             Mr. Rawlinson and Mr. Hildebrand, how do you reconcile your comments of this morning that you think the Saskatoon market could absorb AVR and Touch Canada Broadcasting given that you state all Saskatoon advertisers have been served?  Where do you expect Touch Canada Broadcasting will find its estimated 11 million in sales over its licence term, and even in year one, almost 700,000 of local advertising?  If everyone has been served, where is this money coming from?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17834             MR. RAWLINSON:  Well, I should perhaps answer that because I'm not sure if Mr. Hildebrand said that he was okay with Touch coming in.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17835             They're just so ‑‑ it's a specialty format, number one.  They're ‑‑ I believe that their promise is something like 90 percent to be religious programming, if I'm not ‑‑ which is category 3.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17836             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Gospel music.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17837             MR. RAWLINSON:  Yes.  And that's just ‑‑ quite frankly we just ‑‑ we think of them in the commercial world as something that is very different.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17838             And so other than that, I don't know how to reconcile it, there just doesn't seem to be ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 17839             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  There is only a certain amount of money in the marketplace.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17840             MR. HILDEBRAND:  I think ‑‑ I think also a good percentage of their revenue was projected to be brokered programming, which would be coming from out of the market.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17841             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17842             Another question, and this one for sure will be for both Mr. Rawlinson and Mr. Hildebrand.  Please clarify if we should consider your Saskatoon broadcasting application seriously given your evidence this morning on the state of the Saskatoon Radio marketplace.  I heard you say various ones that you could support, perhaps AVR perhaps coming, perhaps Touch Broadcasting, and you talked a bit about the Regina market.  But I'm going to stay in the Saskatoon market, but I didn't hear mention of the Saskatoon broadcasting application, which is the reason for my question.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17843             MR. RAWLINSON:  I'll jump in and start.  As we said yesterday, our first preference is no commercial licence, but we came up with the idea for Saskatoon Radio broadcasting and have presented it to you because we feel if the Commission feels there is a need for a radio station that that's clearly the radio station that we think the community needs.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17844             And while that would impact on us from the amount of money that we would have to contribute and the amount of time we would have to contribute and the impact on the advertising revenues, we look at it as an ‑‑ or I look at it as a ‑‑ just the right thing to do for the community.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17845             It would have a financial impact, but I guess I wouldn't mind that as much as I would anybody else because in this ‑‑ in Saskatoon Radio broadcasting I think there would be a lot of good done for the community, so I wouldn't mind the financial hit there as much as I would just if some other commercial operator comes in, then there is just ‑‑ to me there's more lost than there is gained.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17846             MR. HILDEBRAND:  I think my comments are along the lines of what I made yesterday and early this morning.  I view all of the stuff that I do in this industry on a long‑term basis, and I think that given the increase in the Aboriginal community in Saskatoon, in the long term this would be a good thing for the community.  And as such, we can support it.  So I don't know if there is anything else that I can add.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17847             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I just needed little clarification based upon this morning's presentation.  That's my question, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17848             Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17849             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17850             I have a few questions.  Mr. Hildebrand, you were saying that national revenue has gone down.  Our highly confidential statistics show otherwise up to 2005.  Are you saying that in '06 they have gone down?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17851             MR. HILDEBRAND:  That's right.  There was a market decrease in 2006, which was outlined by Patrick Gurison(ph) as well.  And so the ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 17852             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can you give us a percentage reduction?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17853             MR. HILDEBRAND:  The percentage is in the range of 15 percent.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17854             MR. RAWLINSON:  And we experienced the same percentage decline this year that just finished, yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17855             THE CHAIRPERSON:  '06, August '06.  Okay.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17856             MR. HILDEBRAND:  And I might add that already we're in the new year going forward and we see this erosion continuing, and to some extent it is a little alarming.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17857             MR. RAWLINSON:  For the first two months of this year, September and October, again, that's the same thing we're having a 15 percent decline in our national advertising.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17858             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it's 15 percent of the already 15 percent reduced amount?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17859             MR. RAWLINSON:  Well, no it's comparing September, October of '05 with September, October '06.  That's down 15 percent, so the trend that happened last year is continuing.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17860             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is continuing.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17861             MR. RAWLINSON:  Actually if my memory serves me right, the decline in national advertising started happening during the year and it just kind of fell off the map.  It was weird, but it wasn't ‑‑ it was not a particularly bad fall a year ago, it was kind of ‑‑ it wasn't growing, but it was kind of in that range and then all of a sudden, boom, it just fell apart.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17862             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Yeah, it just flies in the face of overall national advertising in Canada seems to be going the other direction.  So these are some of the anomalies as it relates to Saskatchewan.  Saskatchewan, many times, you know, isn't on anybody's radar screen in Toronto, and we have to work really hard to get agencies to even realize that there is a Saskatchewan.  And so once we've got them to realize that, then we have to try and actually get some of the budget.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17863             So many times Saskatchewan nationally will only get attention if there is something really bad happening in Saskatchewan.  Gainer is getting more promotion across Canada than any of the good stories that have happened in Saskatchewan in the last year.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17864             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  Government advertising, Crown Corporation advertising, how much of ‑‑ maybe if you could file it confidentially, how much of that comprises as the total percentage of your total advertising?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17865             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Yeah, we'd be happy to do that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17866             MR. RAWLINSON:  Yes, okay.  I can tell you ‑‑ actually last year was a reasonably good year for Government advertising, Provincial Government advertising, but for some reason again this fall it has fallen off.  And yet, as we seem to be getting closer and closer to an election you would think ‑‑ you know, it normally picks up and it had picked up, and we thought, oh, boy, you know, the '07 year should be a great year for Government advertising and it's been quite poor this fall.  So I don't know, it's hard to predict, but ‑‑ so you want percentage of the ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 17867             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Of your gross revenues.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17868             MR. RAWLINSON:  Of our gross revenues comes from Government advertising?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17869             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, and Crown Corps.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17870             MR. RAWLINSON:  And Crown Corps.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17871             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Have you considered that being local advertising or national advertising?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17872             MR. RAWLINSON:  We consider that to be local.  At least that's how we treat it.  I don't know how ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 17873             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Yes, we do.  We treat it as local as well, yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17874             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  So you treat it as local?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17875             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Yes, we do.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17876             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So I wanted to go, Mr. Goldstein, predictions are wonderful, but when we were talking last time we were talking about the difference in population in Regina since the last licensing.  And in Saskatoon the last licensing was 2000.  Did you ever check into what the population was then?  He has to change glasses to find that out.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17877             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  I didn't check it, but I think the difference would be probably about 4,000.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17878             THE CHAIRPERSON:  In population?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17879             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17880             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you think if I could get you to do a little homework and provide us with the population since I think the licensing ‑‑ the hearing was in '99, so since 2000.  The increase in population, the increase in GDP, the increase in retail sales since that time, just so we can have ‑‑ like, it's just history is ‑‑ I always consider it a better predicator than gazing into a crystal ball.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17881             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Sure.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17882             THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you can do that?  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17883             Now, I'm intrigued by ‑‑ and I don't know if you've seen it, Mr. Goldstein, the Newcap document called some market comparisons.  And I must say it looks to me like the stars are coalescing.  In general it looks like somewhere between well, I'm going to say around 20,000 is the number of persons per station in the six other markets.  The average household income looks ‑‑ well, it's an average of 57,000.  And the retail sales per station is 278.  And based on all of that, Regina and Saskatoon are, I know we're special, but, I mean, it doesn't seem to me to make logical sense.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17884             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Well, we discussed a little bit the other day this business about the average number of people per station.  And in our report I dismissed that as a simplistic exercise because, of course, if you take different markets you can prove something else.  But, in fact, I think the most important thing to say about that, and I can, by the way, give you a very long and involved statistical exercise, but I'm not going to.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17885             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Please, please, keep it in normal language for us laymen.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17886             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Yes.  It's not going to be a statistical argument, it's going to be a bit of a philosophical argument.  Madam Chair, you yourself, over the last couple of days, have been questioning applicants on the degree to which they understood the difference between Regina and Saskatoon.  And I ‑‑ and there were a variety of responses.  Some were, in fact, saying, oh, they're very much the same and we can do the same thing in one, we can do the same thing in the other.  And I think you challenged that, and I agree with you, I think they are different.  But if there are differences between Regina and Saskatoon and unique characteristics about Regina and unique characteristics about Saskatoon, how can you then use Moncton or St. John as a proxy?  How can you use Muncton and St. John, New Brunswick as a proxy for Regina and Saskatoon?  It just doesn't make any sense.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17887             The markets are what they are.  We should be looking at the fact that the markets have achieved not at high profit levels, but a certain equilibrium here, and other markets are there, and we should be looking at what one might to that equilibrium if one licensed a new station.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17888             So if the average number of people per station in another market is a certain number, does that mean we're importing the model from that market into Regina and Saskatoon?  Does that mean we're going to put the number of employees per station, which is lower?  Does that mean we're going to bring in the spending on programming, which is lower?  Does that mean we're going to bring in the revenues which might also be lower?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17889             So, I mean, I found it interesting to hear some applicants say that the per capita levels per station or the per capita levels of radio advertising in Saskatchewan were higher given the number of stations, therefore let's now go bring in the number of stations from another market where the per capita levels are lower.  I mean, you can't just cherry pick these statistics and say, well, we can mimic Muncton for numbers of stations and population, but somehow that will have no effect on the program spending, that will have no effect on the revenues, I would rather deal with Regina and Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17890             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Goldstein, though, the differences between the markets that I was referring to was social differences, and surely radio can be responsive to that and, in fact, I think, you know, radio has huge power to change feelings and thoughts about social issues.  That doesn't impact ‑‑ it appears to me that we should be looking, if we're going to use something like this, we should be looking at a place that has a similar economic ‑‑ well,  similar in economics, and if I do that, one would use, I guess, the conference for diversity factors also in that.  And Saskatoon has, what is it, 93 diversity?  Probably the second highest in Canada.  Is it the second highest?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17891             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  I'm not sure.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17892             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think Winnipeg is 95, so it's right up there.  If we tried to do a matrix including diversity factors and the, what am I going to say, economic output, the GDP, and put some of these other issues in, would that give us another way of comparing a proxy?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17893             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Well, I think the two most important things to use are going to be population and retail sales.  I mean, if you're looking for the two most important indicators, the number of indicators are, of course, sub‑indexes of other indicators.  GDP is connected to personal income, is connected to retail sales, I mean, you have to have the GDP to have the income.  You have to have the income to have the sales.  At some point you max out your credit card, so you do have to have the income to have the sales.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17894             So I think I would start with population and retail sales.  I think that I would avoid the headline of the day approach.  You know, 50 new housing starts today, let's licence a new radio station.  450 jobs lost, let's take one away.  I mean, you know, you can't quite do that, and I think, though, that within the use of indicators of this nature, we should be looking at three important things.  And I made some notes for myself and I think maybe it's important to put this on the record, about how one should use these indicators.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17895             First of all, the data has to come from a reliable source, and that means we should be using Statistics Canada wherever possible for historical data.  And if we can't find Statistics Canada data because we're looking at projections or we're looking at markets where Stats Canada doesn't produce data on a regular basis, we should be using sources that do regular updates.  We should be using sources that revise past data.  One of the places some of the people in this process got into a little trouble is they used the source that doesn't revise past data.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17896             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is that FP?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17897             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Yes.  So they come out once a year with a long lead time, and so if they're two percent low in one year and don't revise it, and two percent high in the next year, all of a sudden you're looking like a big increase, which really isn't there.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17898             So first, reliable data.  Secondly, consider the data over a long period of time.  Go back at least ten years and go forward at least five years.  And projections aren't perfect, but they do at least reflect the consensus of demographics and economics.  And don't be driven by short‑term blips.  And the third point is, don't just consider absolute growth rates.  Look at relative growth rates.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17899             Yes, Regina is growing a little, and yes, Saskatoon is growing slightly more than Regina, but both are still growing a lot more slowly than a lot of other places and that is one of the roots of the things we have just been discussing about national advertising and the shift.  And indeed, as you get the big box stores, perhaps elbowing out some local merchants, that might get exacerbated.  So those would be the indicators with those three caveats attached.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17900             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And what if I put into the matrix of, you know, another indicators where the incumbents were privately held or publicly held.  Would that be relevant?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17901             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  I think it might be.  I think the privately held incumbent might be less driven by the next quarterly results, and might have a longer view.  And you have two very good privately held companies sitting right here who could probably answer that as well, but I think that would be a consideration, yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17902             MR. RAWLINSON:  Madam Chair, I'd like to throw one other thing into your matrix, and that is the quality of the radio stations that are in the market, and what are they doing?  I would wonder whether some of these markets they're using have a News Talk station?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17903             And the, you know, we filed many letters, we've got, you know, a lot of evidence on the file about the tremendous benefits that having News Talk stations brings to a community.  It's not just the extra news, it's the, you know, when, you know, the RCMP officer was killed, the ‑‑ carrying the funeral live to the province, I mean, there was just a bunch of things.  And there was an election the other night and I think we had 16 people covering the civic election in Saskatoon, as an example.  I mean, you just don't get that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17904             And the other thing is, is the full service AM stations that are CKRM or CJWW.  Those stations also have big news departments and also carry a lot of local information.  It isn't just the News Talk stations.  And, you know, they haven't been ‑‑ become a shadow of their former selves the way many AM stations have.  Those are still vibrant full service radio stations, and that costs money.  And so I just think those are, you know, the ‑‑ so I think all of those things should be taken into your matrix too.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17905             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Hildebrand, you were talking about, we get a new entrant and the rates will go down, we have to promote more, our staff would be poached.  That would happen except for maybe the last ‑‑ well, no, that may not be true, if Saskatoon broadcasting were licensed also.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17906             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Not in the same way because we would actually be mentoring and training the employees for the new operators.  It would be quite different than if, you know, a public company comes into the market and decides to just ‑‑ you buy the talent no matter what, and so I think it is a big difference from that.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17907             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You don't think the trust wouldn't try to poach Mr. Brass?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17908             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Well, maybe Mr. Brass would ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 17909             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I mean, you've got good some trustees there, and I can't see them, you know, well, I mean ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 17910             MR. HILDEBRAND:  But in real terms, we will be developing more Aboriginal employees there and it will be a totally different picture than, as I say, if a public company comes into the market and decides to sort of just, you know, swoop through and see whatever they can pick off.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17911             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But, like, once they're up and running, you and I would expect them to compete as best they could.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17912             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Truly.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17913             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And my thoughts would be, they would be out there with the advertisers and they might be cutting rates for a while.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17914             MR. HILDEBRAND:  And in all likelihood then we all have to do that to match it.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17915             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yeah, and then would you have to promote too because they would be there?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17916             MR. HILDEBRAND:  And so then you're sort of on a downhill spiral that at the end of the day doesn't provide good radio.  I mean, we just have to go back six or seven years to what we had in Saskatoon.  I mean, we didn't have six good radio stations.  We had two or three good ones and some real dogs, and so the whole process, you know, has been fixed up and I keep coming back to the fact that Saskatoon may have the best radio service of communities anywhere in the Prairies because it has six distinct formats, it has a full service radio, it has  community involvement, you know, second to none and we have a commitment to do that for our audience.  And my personal commitment is that's what I do in broadcasting, I do it for the long run, not for the short run.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17917             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And the trustees of Saskatoon Radio who presented it were proposing a format that appeals to youth.  Is that the format that would hurt your companies the least?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17918             MR. HILDEBRAND:  Probably would hurt our company the least, yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17919             MR. RAWLINSON:  And I think as I said yesterday, it will hurt us more than it will hurt Mr. Hildebrand's operation.  But if I could just reiterate what I said just a few minutes ago, it seems to me that that's ‑‑ if that operation gets a licence and we do take a hit, that's a hit that, quite frankly, from a financial point of view we can afford and I wouldn't feel ‑‑ I mean, at least it's going ‑‑ it would be for a tremendous benefit to the community.  I don't see their ‑‑ it could be argued is the benefit to the community greater than the impact it will have on us as an operator, and that could be debated which way it goes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17920             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So Mr. Rawlinson, though, does this format impact you the least compared to all the other formats proposed?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17921             MR. RAWLINSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17922             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Thank you, gentlemen.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17923             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17924             THE SECRETARY:  We would now call on the next appearing intervener for the record.  I would like to indicate the following interveners will not be appearing.  Those are CIRPA, Paul Martin Communications, Neil Meckelborg, and Jason Moffat.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17925             Therefore, I would call on the next appearing intervener, The Secret Santa Foundation to come forward for their presentation.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 95 \l 17926             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary, this is the Santa Foundation?

LISTNUM 95 \l 17927             THE SECRETARY:  Yes.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 95 \l 17928             THE SECRETARY:  Before you proceed with your presentation, if you could identify yourself.  You could turn on the microphone, introduce yourself, and then you will have ten minutes for your presentation.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17929             Please go ahead.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 95 \l 17930             MS WEYMAN:  Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17931             Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today about the CJWW, Denny Carr, Secret Santa Foundation and what it means to needy families in Saskatoon at Christmas.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17932             My name is Mercedes Weyman and I am the Executive Director of the Secret Santa Foundation.  Seated beside me on the left is Jim McRory, one of our volunteer board members, and to my right is the Chairman of the Secret Santa Board and General Manager of CJWW radio, Vic Dubois.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17933             Please bear with me as I tell you about the history of Secret Santa.  Secret Santa was initially formed 20 years ago in the mid 1980s.  Long time CFQC 600 AM radio morning man, Denny Carr, approached the Salvation Army staff in Saskatoon to ask how the radio station could assist the needy during the Christmas season.  Their request was for toys and Secret Santa was born with a mandate to see to it that no child in Saskatoon would go without a new unwrapped toy on Christmas day.  Denny Carr continued to be the driving force behind Secret Santa each year directing a team of volunteer elves led by myself.  As to how I first became involved, my late husband was another long time radio news man with CFQC.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17934             MR. McRORY:  In 1994 the radio station was purchased by the company that owned CJWW radio in Saskatoon.  CFQC then became an FM station and Denny Carr continued his career as a co‑host on the morning show on CJWW, which now occupied the 600 dial position.  CJWW General Manager, Vic Dubois, wholeheartedly took on the task of supporting Denny's Secret Santa with whatever air time, money, and staff resources that were required.  Of course it goes without saying that CJWW already had an excellent track record of involvement with many charitable organizations and events before Secret Santa came along.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17935             MS WEYMAN:  In 1998, Denny Carr was diagnosed with cancer and sadly passed away in 1999 after being a fixture on the morning airwaves in Saskatoon for more than 30 years.  As a side note, my husband, Easton Weyman, had also contracted cancer and passed away two years earlier in 1997.  Both his and Denny's pictures, with the caption, "In memory of our friends," are on the wall to this day in CJWW's reception area.  This is a radio company that cares.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17936             The challenge in 1999 was what was going to happen to Secret Santa now that its founder and guiding leader was gone.  I was asked to attend a meeting with Vic Dubois, along with both CJWW's promotions and community relations directors.  The purpose of the meeting; to discuss the future of Secret Santa.  Would we carry on somehow without Denny at the helm or simply dissolve the organization.  And to compound events, the Salvation Army in Toronto decided to not continue releasing income tax receipts, which made things more difficult for donors.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17937             MR. McRORY:  The decision came easily that Secret Santa was far too important to just let it fade away into oblivion.  CJWW would take on the task of seeing to it that Denny Carr's legacy lived on and with the help of CJWW's outside legal and accounting firms, the result was the formation of the CJWW Denny Carr Secret Santa Foundation, a Federally registered charity with the ability to issue tax receipts.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17938             There is a six person volunteer Board of Directors from the community chaired by CJWW General Manager, Vic Dubois, and our Executive Director, Mercedes, along with a number of volunteers who come on board in November and December each year as this wraps up at the end of the year, and that number is somewhere between 75 and 100 people from the community, including huge support by our firefighters in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17939             I'm very pleased to say that ongoing fundraising efforts after 1999 became so successful, thanks to wonderful community support from Saskatoon businesses and organizations, that last year, in 2005, the foundation made a decision to expand its mandate.  Now, we had noticed that the Salvation Army had reduced staff and operations in the City of Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17940             Accordingly, after consulting with the Salvation Army, the Secret Santa Foundation stepped up to the plate and took on the task of providing not just toys, but Christmas food hampers as well.  And we searched until we found a building that we could use as a storage and a pick‑up depot, and the week before Christmas, CJWW staff and their families, along with other outside volunteers, put together hampers full of food and toys; then on December 22nd, handed them out to a total of 600 needy Saskatoon families, the majority of which, as it turned out, had four or more children by the way.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17941             So that number was anywhere from between 15 and 100 and 2,500 people total that were looked after at Christmas time.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17942             We had our most recent Board meeting a short time ago in October and I'm happy to report that the 2006 Secret Santa campaign is set to get under way.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17943             We expect to once again provide ‑‑ officially start that campaign with a symbolic placing of a present under the big Christmas tree in the lobby of our City Hall in Saskatoon.  The Mayor is always a part of that.  The firefighters come out and sing carols for us, and there is always a good turnout of the media; and from print, to radio and television, always support us very, very nicely.  CJWW management and staff are ready to go and are as passionate as ever about this very worthwhile cause.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17944             MS WEYMAN:  There are two reasons that I felt it was important for you to hear this story.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17945             The first reason is to show how this radio station, CJWW, goes above and beyond the call of duty when it comes to being caring and compassionate about the community.  This station, along with the other two in the same company, CFQC FM and CJMK FM, are deeply committed to helping nonprofit groups and organizations in Saskatoon achieve their goals of providing a better quality of life for those who require their help.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17946             The station employs a Community Relation's Director whose mandate goes far beyond simply allocating public service announcements on the air.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17947             The CJWW Denny Carr Secret Santa Foundation is just an excellent example of how far these broadcasters are prepared to go to give something back to the community in order to assist those in need.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17948             The second reason that I am here is because I have a fear that should new FM radio licences be granted to Saskatoon, CJWW AM could find itself in a position whereby it cannot continue to spend enough time and money, as well as allocating of staff to ensure that the Secret Santa Foundation fulfils the mandate it has been given by the Board.  That would mean a sad Christmas day for many needy families in Saskatoon.  I believe that it is vitally important to our community that Secret Santa lives on and is able to do its wonderful charitable work in the future.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17949             I am therefore asking the Commission to please take this consideration when deliberating on the number of radio licences that should be operating in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17950             Thank you very much for allowing us to make this presentation today and we would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17951             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Pennefather.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17952             COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17953             Thank you for being with us this morning and for presenting the story behind the foundation and I really have no questions; just to congratulate you on your important work for the community and reminding us that Christmas is around the corner.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17954             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mrs. Weyman and gentlemen.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17955             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17956             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17957             I will now call on the next appearing intervener, Lisa Rendall, to come forward for her presentation.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17958             Ms Rendall, you can go ahead.  You would have ten minutes for your presentation.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17959             Thank you.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 95 \l 17960             MS RENDALL:  Thank you, Madam Chair, members of the Commission, and Commission staff.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17961             My name is Lisa Rendall.  Joining me is Glenda Little, the communications consultant for the Saskatchewan Cancer Agency.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17962             I would first like to tell you just a bit about me.  I was diagnosed with stage 4, incurable metastatic breast cancer in July of 2000.  At the time, I was a morning show co‑host on C95 and I have been on long‑term disability for the last six years.  I had pain throughout my body and doctors could not figure out what was going on, until I had severe neck pain, and x‑rays showed that a vertebrae in my neck had totally collapsed.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17963             Cancer had eaten away at the bone and destroyed it, collapsing my neck and causing me unbearable pain.  I went to the hospital with a sore neck and found out that I had breast cancer that had spread to the rest of my body; areas including of course my neck, my first right rib is totally broken apart by a tumour.  There are numerous cancerous legions in my chest wall, many of my ribs and throughout my spine from the neck right down to the sacral area.  I have a partially collapsed vertebra in my back and the cancer is also in my liver, but do I look like I have cancer?  No.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17964             I was put in a halo for three months.  I had a bone graft put into my neck from my hip, along with a titanium plate put into my neck.  I also had the lump in my breast removed, a lump that was only detectable by a CT scan.  I had chemotherapy once a week for six months, which was able to shrink the tumours, and my cancer has remained the same for six years.  It's still there, it just hasn't grown or shrunk.  So I have what they call stable disease.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17965             I still have three different treatments a month.  I take two different kinds of Morphine to help me cope with the pain of the cancer in my bones, but I'm not here to talk about me.  I'm here to talk about the outstanding support of C95 in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17966             Since my diagnosis I have been overwhelmed with the support of all of the Saskatoon radio stations, but particularly with C95.  They have been having radio marathon fundraisers for paediatric causes until my diagnosis and it was then that C95 changed the radio marathon to be a fundraiser for breast cancer research.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17967             I have to tell you, I'm a control freak and mixing a control freak with cancer is not an easy thing to do, to say the least, because there was nothing I could do to control my situation.  There is nothing I could do to change it, but I could try and raise enough money to find new treatments and ultimately a cure.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17968             The staff at C95 threw themselves into the radio marathon.  It was personal for the staff because of what had happened to me.  I was actually not expected to live for very long.  And someone close to them had been diagnosed with cancer.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17969             We not only have the C95 radio marathon for breast cancer at the end of October, which of course is Breast Cancer Awareness Month, but there are many events that C95 publicizes throughout the year.  If an event comes up, they're always trying to think of a way that we can turn it into a fundraiser for breast cancer research.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17970             When the Exhibition is in town, for the entire week the announcers and other staff are there raising money for breast cancer with contests.  They're selling some kind of C95 breast cancer fundraising item.  For a local City Hall chili cook‑off, the money raised goes to the C95 radio marathon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17971             I'm involved with a dragon boat team of breast cancer survivors.  We have fundraising pasta nights, barbecues, and much more throughout the year and C95 is always extremely supportive in letting the community know about these little events as well.  In the summer I hold my own golf tournament, even though I don't golf.  It's called the Lisa Rendall Golf Classic.  It raises money for the C95 radio marathon for breast cancer research, another way that I can try and make a difference in what's happened to me.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17972             C95 puts the entry form and poster on their website.  They run promos to let everyone know of the event.  And the morning show even comes out to broadcast live the day of the tournament.  The support of the golf tournament goes basically from May through to the end of August with promos and the announcers talking about it, along with information on the C95 website.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17973             I personally hold many fundraising and awareness events about breast cancer throughout the year, and I'm always overwhelmed with the support I receive from the current local radio stations, C95 in particular.  I have been contacted numerous times to do interviews about my golf tournament, fundraising steak nights, our Busting With Energy Dragon Boat Team, even speaking engagements that I do to talk about my breast cancer experience and my ongoing battle with the disease.  I have been featured in many newspapers, magazines and TV interviews, and C95 is even notifying the public about these kinds of things.  Look for Lisa in the paper today, Lisa is here.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17974             The single biggest event, though, that shows the commitment of our location radio stations is the C95 radio marathon for breast cancer research.  We just had our 7th annual radio marathon last week ‑‑ I'm sorry, it was just last Thursday and Friday.  We raised a record‑breaking $305,000.  There are no big corporate donations.  This is all money raised by local people who are moved to donate because of what they hear on C95.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17975             In the seven years that C95 has turned over the airwaves for an entire two days, we have now made over one million dollars for the Saskatchewan Cancer Agency for research.  It's an incredible two days where the radio station focuses entirely on breast cancer and raising money to find a cure and new treatments.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17976             C95 started out doing the marathon for 30 hours, then they extended it to 35 hours, now we're at 36 hours.  That's 36 hours of live radio devoted to breast cancer awareness and research.  They talk to a local breast cancer survivor every hour, talk to family members, friends, and staff at the Saskatchewan Cancer Agency.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17977             Before the radio marathon, no one even knew about the Saskatchewan Cancer Agency.  You see, they can't go out and tell people about themselves like the Canadian Cancer Society can.  Glenda could speak more to that issue better than I can.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17978             C95 has not only been able to raise over one million dollars for the Saskatchewan Cancer Agency, they have made the province aware of the fact that the agency exists.  Glenda Little, communications consultant with the Saskatchewan Cancer Agency will now speak about the impact that C95 has had on the Saskatchewan Cancer Agency.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17979             MS LITTLE:  Thanks, Lisa.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17980             I'm pleased to be here today to talk about Saskatchewan Cancer Agency's relationship with C95 and Rawlco Radio.  As chairperson of the agency, C95 radio marathon committee, I would like to express to you how important our relationship with C95 and Rawlco Radio has become.  This relationship is not only important to our cancer research unit, but to our staff and volunteers, as well as to our patients and their family members and the public at large.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17981             The agency operates cancer centers in Regina and Saskatoon, cancer patient lodges, screening programs for breast and cervical cancer, many other programs and services.  We also have an active cancer research unit located within the Saskatoon Cancer Centre.  Funding for administration of the unit comes from the agency in the form of core support, however, all research carried out within the unit is funded by competitive grants from agencies such as the National Cancer Institute of Canada and others like it.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17982             Over the past seven years, the C95 radio marathon has brought in actually one point one million dollars for breast cancer research.  This is an incredible amount and has had an amazing impact on our research program.  Specifically we have been able to significantly expand our program in the area of breast cancer.  Lisa is correct in saying that up to this point, the Saskatchewan Cancer Agency has been a passive fundraiser, meaning that we accept donations, but we haven't been actively involved in fundraising promotion.  Consequently it is sometimes difficult getting the word out that we're right here in the province delivering cancer services and conducting world class research, and C95 and the radio marathon seven years ago, and the positive result has been increased awareness.  We regret that Lisa Rendall's diagnosis is the reason the C95 radio marathon for breast cancer research was given to us, but we're truly grateful and thankful for our relationship with Lisa, C95, and Rawlco Radio.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17983             C95 and Rawlco Radio are making a big difference in the lives of people affected by breast cancer and, in turn, people with all types of cancer.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17984             Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17985             MS RENDALL:  Thank you, Glenda.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17986             In closing, I would like to personally express that I feel the number of radio stations we have in Saskatoon is more than enough for the size of our community.  I worry that should other competing radio stations come into our community that events such at as my golf tournament would not be able to get the community coverage that we currently receive and that getting 36 hours of live radio for a fundraiser may not be possible any more.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17987             The radio stations we have currently serve our community extremely well.  C95 is incredibly generous and goes over and above what radio stations normally do.  They donate air time and manpower to a massive fundraising and awareness endeavour that I could not possibly do on my own no matter how hard I try.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17988             Thank you so much for your time and we'd be pleased to answer any questions.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17989             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms Rendall.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17990             It's amazing, just this morning, the five of us were sitting around the table in our room talking about how cancer has touched us all.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17991             Thank you very much, we have no questions.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17992             MS RENDALL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17993             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17994             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17995             I would now call on the next two appearing interveners.  They are APTN, Mr. Jean LaRose, and Amanda Nepper, if you would come forward for your presentation.  We will start with Mr. LaRose from APTN, you will have 10 minutes for your presentation.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17996             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Welcome to God's country, Mr. LaRose.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17997             I said, welcome to God's country.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 95 \l 17998             MR. LAROSE:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 17999             There is still no snow here.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18000             Good morning, Madam Chair, monsieur le vice-président, Commissioners and Commission staff.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18001             Mon nom est Jean LaRose.  Je suis le directeur général du reseau de télévision des peuples autochtones.  Je suis un citoyen Abanaki de la première nation Odanak.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18002             I appear before you today in support of an application by Harvard Broadcasting to provide an FM service to Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18003             The service they propose would be directed to the least well served population in the market, 12 to 34 years old.  Harvard has found in their research, both in this and other markets, that it is these younger listeners who are least satisfied  by traditional broadcast radio.  I commend any broadcaster who is recognizing and addressing this critical problem, one of the reasons being that our population is over 50 percent in that age group.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18004             Because it is not just the immediate or even midterm future of radio that is being jeopardized by ignoring these audiences, it has a larger social implication.  As the next generation disconnects from mass media in favour of more highly personalized information and entertainment sources, we lose the opportunity to engage in dialogue; dialogue that is critical to advancing their understanding of the world and dialogue that is needed to expand the horizons of their thought.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18005             The challenges within the Aboriginal communities in this area are not undocumented.  At APTN, we take our role as a community leader and a potential mentor for our youth quite seriously.  One of the primary driving forces behind the creation of the Aboriginal Media Education Fund, AMEF, was the shocking realization that young Aboriginal persons were either not aware of the opportunities in broadcasting or considered it beyond their reach.  In one case, we had developed an Aboriginal‑specific initiative with a CEGEP in Quebec in conjunction with a well‑known producer that offered a number of openings for Aboriginal youth.  Even with a substantial information campaign in high schools located within our communities in that region, not one youth applied.  This demonstrated to us that we need to work harder and more diligently at reaching our youth and clearly demonstrating to them that this is one field where they do have opportunities and a range of choices.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18006             The AMEF, as you heard earlier this week, has one of its mandates, a plan to address this disenfranchisement.  It will begin with education, expand to training both academic and workplace based, develop into mentorship programs, and hopefully will be able to assist with job placements.  One of the most important aspects of the AMEF is that the scope of training covers all aspects of media.  Our intent is to provide training where needed and in areas that are of the most interest to the recipients of the funding.  This is what makes AMEF, in my mind, the most comprehensive and important initiative of its kind in Canada, one that is deserving of support by the entire broadcasting community, be it radio or television.  I sincerely believe that the pool of talent that industry will require in the coming years will in great part be composed of Aboriginal Peoples and we must start today to establish and develop that talent pool.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18007             While the AMEF did not consider Canadian Talent Development Funds as part of the original funding base, it is our assessment that given the criteria, it is exactly the type of organization that the CTD initiatives were envisioned to support.  We thank Harvard Broadcasting for recognizing this opportunity and drawing our attention to this potential funding.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18008             The heart of our support for the Harvest Broadcasting proposal, however, is premised on the ongoing commitment of Harvard Broadcasting in assisting APTN in developing a pool of trained news reporters.  Similar to the commitments of Harvard in Calgary and Fort McMurray, Harvard is prepared to provide at their expense mentorship programs for one candidate each year of a licence.  APTN will recruit and select the candidates and Harvard commits to hiring at least one of the persons completing the program.  These candidates will receive full training in all aspecting of news production and will be given the opportunity to develop their own on‑air segments.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18009             Candidates for the mentorship program with Harvard will leave after a year with critical firsthand experience of producing and reporting news.  They will have a portfolio of material that they have worked on to show prospective employers and through their on‑air segments, they will have production credits.  The importance of this type of on‑the‑job training support should not be underestimated.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18010             As the Commission well knows, APTN has just recently been renewed for its second term, and you would know since you renewed it.  We are very proud of what we have accomplished thus far and the increased pass through fee will help take us to the next level.  But all of these new monies have been earmarked to meet our targets of increased production and will be directed toward what appears on screen.  The Commission has given us very specific direction as to how and where to direct that revenue and I intend to ensure that APTN meets the conditions of licence that the CRTC presented with the subscriber increase.  As you know, APTN competes for audience with all other broadcasters and it is imperative that we never lose site of the need to create on‑air programming that is entertaining and engaging.  This leaves APTN and frankly the system with the same exact under‑ representation skilled Aboriginal media people as five years ago.  As well, the Commission is well aware of the costs of producing certain categories and genres of  programming.  Even with the increase, APTN needs to establish partnerships with other broadcasters to develop the types of programming that will meet audience needs and expectations and successfully demonstrate that Canadian productions can be as good, if not better, than off‑the‑shelf productions made in other countries.  APTN is working hard to establish, maintain and expand those partnerships.  But these are outside of the scope of AMEF, which is a totally independent entity from APTN.  AMEF will develop a talent pool from which not only APTN, but other Aboriginal radio broadcasters like AMMSA, MBC, NCI, Wawatay, and others, will be able to get talent.  It is also AMEF's goal to help mainstream broadcasters to have access to this incredible talent pool that will provide them with qualified dynamic and young individuals who will provide them with a whole new generation of skilled workers.  After all, isn't it our social responsibility to ensure that we pave the way for our young people to replace us?  Many of us in this room are 10, 15 years from moving on into our sunset years.  That is a very small window, indeed, to train young people to assume the tasks and responsibilities that we hold and ensure that the industry remains strong and vibrant.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18011             That is why we believe it is important that broadcasters be encouraged to contribute support to the system through initiatives like the AMEF and directly to APTN through programs like the proposed news mentoring program.  It is only through a more broadly organized and more widely supported effort that APTN will be able to realize its goal of producing information and entertainment that are "by" and not just "for and about" Aboriginal Peoples.  It is only through these larger efforts that the imbalance in the system in terms of the participation of Aboriginal Peoples will be addressed.  The entire system will benefit since many of these individuals will one day be filling these types of positions not only in the Aboriginal community, but the entire broadcasting community in Canada.  That is the goal of AMEF and I believe the goal of the Commission and the industry and it seeks to work collectively to address the systemic imbalance through the work of the industry in SABAR,  for example, and through other initiatives set out by the Commission to address the under‑representation of certain groups including Aboriginal Peoples.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18012             At APTN we are proud to say we are the first national Aboriginal broadcast in the world.  Our role and our place in the Canadian broadcast system is something we both value and appreciate.  We are encouraged by the fact that broadcasters like Harvard recognize the role they can play in ensuring representation of Aboriginal Peoples "in front and behind the cameras and microphones" and we hope the Commission will reward such valuable contributions by expanding the communities they serve.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18013             In closing I would like to sum up why I think the Harvard Broadcasting proposal should be licensed.

‑ 1)  The Zone seeks to provide a service for an underserved population and a group of people increasingly disenfranchised with traditional media.

‑ 2)  Harvard proposes a news mentoring program that will provide Saskatoon Aboriginal Peoples an opportunity to train in the market where they live and create skilled people in an area of critical need.

‑ 3)  Harvard's mentoring proposal will not only provide training, but it comes with an offer and a guarantee of employment.

‑ 4)  Harvard Broadcasting's ongoing support of APTN and the AMEF recognizes the role that broadcasters and the system have to play in developing Aboriginal talent.  APTN is certainly making strides, but should not carry the obligation alone.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18014             I thank you very much for your time and attention and would be most happy to answer any questions you may have at this time.  Merci.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18015             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. LaRose.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18016             We'll continue with Ms Amanda Nepper and then questions may follow from the panel.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18017             MS NEPPER:  Good morning, Madam Chair, and Commissioners and Commission staff.  My name is Amanda Nepper.  I'm 24 years old and I have been a resident of Saskatoon for seven years now.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18018             I used to listen to the radio all the time.  For a while, I have been finding myself relying more on my CDs to hear the music that I want to hear.  There is nothing on the radio that I listen to, mainly because it's been the same music and programming over and over and over for years now.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18019             Our city desperately needs some diversity for the listeners.  Our current stations play the same music all the time.  There are times I tune into the radio and the song on Rock 102 will also be playing on C95 or the song on Magic 98.3 will also be playing on Rock 102.  And I have personally experienced the same song playing on three stations at once and it's not much of a selection.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18020             So needless to say I was excited to hear about a possible new radio station in Saskatoon.  The ideas presented in the application put forth by Harvard Broadcasting have captured my attention and have my full support.  I want a station that's going to play my music, my friends' music and The Zone would definitely be a station that I could call my own.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18021             Currently no station in Saskatoon is speaking to my generation.  We spend time downloading music and listening to our MP3 players, iPods, rather than using the radio and it's because there is nothing to listen to.  A station that would be playing Alternative and Modern Rock, Urban, Hip Hop and Pop music is exactly the radio station I want and one that I would listen to.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18022             The Zone would not only be playing my generations' music, but the news and information programming would be relevant to those in my age group.  This would also be an interactive  station, having listener DJ's mix and introduce their own music and listener polls, which I feel are programs that are designed to create a connection between the station and its audience.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18023             Harvard also wants to be helping towards the discovery and development of local talent in Saskatoon and Saskatchewan.  Funding is planned for the U of S music department, which in return helps keep music alive and growing in our city.  The talent discovery contest is something I think will help artists within the area and will also be a program for listeners.  We can hear new music and vote for who we like.  It would be like having our own little version of Canadian Idol right there in Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18024             A new sound for Saskatoon is long overdue.  I would love having my music collection combined into one radio station rather than having to haul around numerous burnt CDs.  The Zone 92.3 is not only what I'm looking for, I know it's what Saskatoon is looking for.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18025             Thank you for having me today and I will answer any questions you have for me.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18026             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18027             Vice‑Chair Arpin.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18028             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18029             Mr. LaRose, I note in your oral presentation today that you're mentioning that AMEF is there to develop the talent pool for APTN and other radio broadcasters, and you name a few by their acronyms.  There is a national radio network whose name doesn't appear on your list.  Is it for any given reason or ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18030             MR. LAROSE:  No, actually this list isn't exhaustive.  If I had made an exhaustive list, it would included AVR, as well as an NEB Terrace, NBY Yukon, NCS in Yellowknife.  I mean, there is a whole range of others.  I just selected a few from this region because I suspect that a lot of the training that would happen in this region would be for youth in this area who would work in radio stations in this area that are currently established and the ones that come to mind as established were those mentioned here.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18031             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Now, I don't know if you're aware, yesterday and over the last couple of days, we heard a few applications for new Aboriginal services in the area.  ADR surely was here with the two proposals; one for Regina and one for Saskatoon.  A group from Saskatoon also under the name of Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting made a proposal regarding the implementation of a radio service for Saskatoon, and which will be staffed exclusively by Aboriginal.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18032             Now, you just referred in your presentation to a situation that you lived in Quebec through CEGEP.  Do you think that for the time being there is sufficient staffing for ‑‑ to meet the needs of setting up radio stations that will be staffed exclusively by Aboriginal and starts from the ground, say, in the next year or so?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18033             MR. LAROSE:  I don't pretend to know everything about radio, so I will qualify my statements, but it has been my experience with APTN that in many fields we do not have ‑‑ we are hard pressed even as a network to fill all of our positions with Aboriginal people.  That's why we created the mentorship program within the network where non‑aboriginal individuals, who have years of experience in mainstream, are hired for some of the key positions, some director positions and others, some engineer positions, and mentor over the course of sunset contracts, which is three to five years, mentor the Aboriginal staff to reach that level.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18034             I would be hesitant to say that a fully staffed Aboriginal radio station would actually find all of its staff to start.  I suspect there would be gaps.  We certainly have gaps ‑‑ we have gaps right now in filling some of the positions of the bureaus that we have now opened in accordance to our licence.  We're having difficulty filling the positions in Iqaluit with qualified Inuit reporters.  We're having difficulties in filling ‑‑ even in filling one of the prairie bureaus right now.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18035             So obviously there is a shortage of talent and this is why the approach that we are using with AMEF and Harvard here strikes APTN as the proper approach because it is developing talent in areas that are needed and it is looking at all areas, and some of our production areas, whether it's from a technical perspective, whether it's from an off‑air strictly management and operational perspective.  There is not a lot of talent that has had the opportunity in mainstream to possibly be able to fulfil all the duties of a network.  That's my experience with APTN.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18036             I know it's the experience of some of the societies who operate Aboriginal radio networks across the country, so I would have to say that, at this point, I am not convinced that a fully staffed station established for the purpose of that, and also under the auspices of a mainstream network, might actually develop the way that it is expected to.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18037             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  And personally, you, John LaRose, how did you come to broadcasting to the position that you are now holding at APTN?  Where were you trained?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18038             MR. LAROSE:  Where did I ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18039             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18040             MR. LAROSE:  Actually I came into APTN from our communications PR and media relations field.  What gave me the background to fulfil this position was the fact that I had the opportunity over a few years to operate a business on my own, but also from my political perspective to work with some of the Aboriginal organizations and gather a lot of knowledge and experience of what were some of the challenges faced by the communities, and what were some of the challenges faced by some of our organizations.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18041             And this knowledge is what allowed me to be able to step in this position, and while not being fully knowledgeable about the field, have enough experience to know what the pitfalls usually were for organizations such as ours, how to avoid them.  And the big knowledge I learned over the ten years in business also gave me a good background on what to look for, how to build a network, how to expand it, and how to ensure that it is on the proper footing.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18042             VICE‑CHAIR ARPIN:  Thank you, Mr. LaRose, thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18043             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18044             Ms Nepper, you are a part‑time student?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18045             MS NEPPER:  I just wrote my last midterm for this semester.  I'm not going back next semester.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18046             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You're not going back?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18047             MS NEPPER:  Well, I plan to go back, but I just ‑‑ there is a glitch in the plan right now, so ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18048             THE CHAIRPERSON:  What about your friends at University or ‑‑ not necessarily in University, your other friends, what do they listen to?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18049             MS NEPPER:  Not the radio, and it's not even that; they listen to ‑‑ they download music because we don't hear it ‑‑ like, I have one girlfriend that, you know, she said, I'll listen to the radio for maybe an hour, I'll hear two songs that I like and maybe ‑‑ and none of them will be songs that they haven't already heard.  And I have ‑‑ like, I use my boyfriend's younger siblings, because I don't have any younger siblings.  Chantelle is 16 and Chet is 19 and they never listen to the radio.  Like, they probably ‑‑ I don't think ‑‑ I don't think Chantelle has listened to the radio at all.  Like, Chet stopped listening, but there is nothing there for them.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18050             Like, there is going to be no future in radio.  That's what I mean, we're going to lose, like, a whole generation.  Music is so important and they're not hearing anything they want to hear.  And an '80s request lunch doesn't mean anything to them and that's prime time listening hour, as far as I'm concerned.  That's when kids aren't in school, that's when, you know, people are on their lunch breaks, that's when people are driving around.  Everyone is listening to the radio and I'm sure the '80s does hit a certain group, but ‑‑ I was even born in 1982, but I don't want to hear that all lunch hour, you know.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18051             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You probably don't remember when you were one year old and had  favourite tunes at that time?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18052             MS NEPPER:  I even made a comment to my mom about ‑‑ because of my hair.  I said, I wish I was born in the '80s, but that's ‑‑ I was, but I didn't live the '80s, you know.  We lived the '90s and, like, the future now.  Like, there is nothing on the radio for us to listen to.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18053             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18054             Mr. LaRose, I hear you about trying to find qualified people.  I think it is the experience of broadcasters in Saskatoon that even finding anybody to recruit to train is difficult.  And you will be choosing the person who will be going in with Harvard should they be licensed.  How do you plan to find somebody and your CEGEP experience is the same thing, isn't it?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18055             MR. LAROSE:  Well, it is.  And I mean, what we have ‑‑ in fact, one thing that's been very useful to us recently, as you know, we opened the Edmonton bureau, we've opened the Whitehorse and Iqaluit bureaus.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18056             We also had to staff our Saskatoon bureau because we had one of our key reporters, who is also a playwright, make the choice that play writing was more interesting than news reporting and also who plans to pitch show ideas to us, so he left, but in the course of the job search and the interviews we conducted, we identified about eight Aboriginal individuals who have some writing experience, but no radio or television experience.  So we right now have possible candidates for up to eight positions that would require training and mentoring.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18057             The same happened in Edmonton.  I think we've got five people on that list, five Aboriginal individuals, so I think that the opportunities are there.  I think that the people are there.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18058             In Quebec it's a different story.  We've started an outreach program in high schools where our regional manager of programming for Quebec and eastern region will be going to some of the community colleges, will be going to high schools and even earlier, you know, mid schools, late grade 7, grade 8, some of the job fairs, and we will be basically bringing sort of a little travelling road show to those schools to show the various opportunities, not only within television, but whether it be a reporter, whether it be a sound person; it could be radio, it could be television, to show the entire broadcasting sector because we're also trying to build an Aboriginal television broadcasting sector.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18059             We're trying to build a production community that will provide us with programming, but also work with the partnerships that we have, say, with Omni and with other broadcasters to develop new programming that's of interest to both our audience and Canadians in general.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18060             As you know, the partnership with Omni right now is allowing us to develop two ‑‑ we're test marketing two talk shows that are oriented to Native spirituality, but spirituality in general as well, so it's of interest to both audiences, but that we'll also look at the broader scope of spirituality within the Aboriginal consciences, which involves healthy living, which involves a whole array of, you know, an entire lifestyle.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18061             And from these two that we are developing this year, and will be airing, we will choose one that under the special benefits and the partnership we have with them, will be pursued for the next three years.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18062             So as we develop these opportunities we are also tightening our rules for non‑ aboriginal producers.  We are tightening the rules for the mentoring of the people they hire.  We are tightening the guidelines as to what they need to deliver to those individuals because too often we have seen ‑‑ I hate to use the term, but I have to use it, because I can't think of another one, what I call is the store‑front Indian, which is the token Indian in front of a project where the individual in fact has no real responsibility.  And we have seen that with the production this year.  And that discourages me because it goes totally against what APTN is trying to do.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18063             If someone is hired to be an associate producer, I expect that they will be given the training to that level, not asked to sort of sit and watch, because you don't learn too much in sitting and watching.  You learn by doing.  You learn by being mentored.  So I think we have the people that we can bring into these markets, the prairie markets.  This is where we have the highest concentration of Aboriginal people.  This is where right now we have the highest potential and we do have people that could go in right now these mentoring positions.  We just need to ensure that they're there.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18064             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. LaRose.  Thank you, Ms Nepper.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18065             And I have been asked by two individuals if we could take a break.  So it's 10:30 my time.  We will be back in 15 minutes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18066             Thank you.

‑‑‑ Recess at 1030 / Suspension à 1030

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1050 / Reprise à 1050

LISTNUM 95 \l 18067             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18068             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18069             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18070             We will now proceed with the next two appearing interveners.  I would ask that the Saskatoon Indian & Metis Friendship Centre as well as Mils Productions, if they would come forward to present their intervention?

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 95 \l 18071             THE SECRETARY:  I would ask if you could please identify yourself?  Are you with the Saskatoon Indian & Metis Friendship Centre?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18072             MS HENDERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18073             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18074             Please introduce yourself and you'll have ten minutes for your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 95 \l 18075             MS HENDERSON:  Good morning, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, ladies and gentlemen.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18076             I'm honoured to be here today before you to lend my support for the radio licence application put forward by the Aboriginal Voices Radio network to broadcast in Saskatoon.  My name is May Henderson and I represent the Saskatoon Friendship Centre.  Saskatoon Friendship Centre was incorporated in 1968 and has served as the central hub of the Saskatoon Aboriginal community for 38 years.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18077             Our Friendship Centre continued to build and develop partnerships that assist Aboriginal people in closing the gap in life's chances between Aboriginal and non‑Aboriginal peoples.  We have been committed for many years to developing a strong and productive community.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18078             SIMFC objectives are to provide a reception centre for Aboriginal people coming to the city, to provide an information referral centre for Aboriginal people to ‑‑ residing in the city, to provide a place where cultural activities and identification can be carried on and maintained, to provide a meeting place where the Aboriginal and non‑Aboriginal community can come together to mutually support each other and exchange ideas and values.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18079             Simply put, I believe that having Aboriginal Voices Radio broadcast in Saskatoon will contribute to the achievement of our priorities and our goals.  AVR has demonstrated the same values and concerns toward Aboriginal wellbeing as we do.  AVR recognizes that our future is in our youth, therefore we must create opportunities for the young ones to hear their language, hear their stories, and hear their own voices.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18080             One of the great gifts that we can give to the future is strong and grounded children with a clear sense of who they are.  This sense of identity is the foundation upon which we can rebuild our communities and fully participate in opportunities and employment.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18081             Having AVR provide an outlet of creative expression allows our community to share the beauty and strength of our culture with others.  In this way, we hope to affect how other people in our city hear and understand us.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18082             We see AVR as a way to bridge the cultural divides.  As well, AVR allows our artists a place their expression of today's Aboriginal reality and culture.  It establishes a venue that our people will aspire to to share their art and voice.  We are a vibrant and dynamic community.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18083             Furthermore, AVR is committed to supporting the efforts of our communities and organizations by creating the opportunity for us to get the word about ‑‑ out about our events, gatherings and community endeavours.  This is a very important contribution.  It allows us the chance to support each other and coordinate a common front on our issues and our priorities.  I'm nervous.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18084             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Don't be.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18085             MS HENDERSON:  Once again and in conclusion, I believe that having AVR here in Saskatoon will contribute to the achievements of our collective priorities.  Here is an opportunity to fill a void that would mean great things to so many people.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18086             Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18087             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18088             Do you have an estimate?  Like, I know Stats Can has their estimates, but it's always been that Indian and Metis people ‑‑ well, particularly Indian people under‑report.  Do you have an estimation of the population of Aboriginal, First Nations, Metis people in Saskatoon?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18089             MS HENDERSON:  I would say it's at least 25, 30 percent.  It's quite high.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18090             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Of the population?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18091             MS HENDERSON:  Yeah.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18092             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yeah.  Especially the Metis because we don't ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18093             MS HENDERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18094             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And how many people would be coming through your doors these days?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18095             MS HENDERSON:  Through our doors monthly, we'd probably have about 1500 people that comes through our doors on a regular basis.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18096             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And any estimate about how many people ‑‑ I don't know ‑‑ I guess maybe on a monthly basis or a yearly basis are coming into the city?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18097             MS HENDERSON:  Lots.  It's ‑‑ you know, we're surrounded by several reserves.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18098             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yeah, mmhmm.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18099             MS HENDERSON:  And there's a lot of people coming in from ‑‑ into the urban centres because, you know, there's more opportunities, but it ‑‑ the numbers are high, and it's growing.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18100             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Education and jobs ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18101             MS HENDERSON:  Education, jobs and just for places to live, like ‑‑ you know, they need homes, and we try and assist them in locating accommodations and ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18102             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18103             MS HENDERSON:  Okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18104             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18105             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18106             I would now call on the last three appearing interveners, Missinipi Broadcasting Corporation, Joe Duquette High School and Robert A. Merasty, if you would come forward for your presentation please?

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 95 \l 18107             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I wonder, Madam Secretary, are these conflicting interveners?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18108             THE SECRETARY:  I'm just told that, so perhaps we will start with Missinipi Broadcasting Corporation and we'll continue ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18109             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And are you with the school?  Are you Mr. Merasty?

LISTNUM 95 \l 18110             MR. MERASTY:  I'm Mr. Merasty.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18111             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Merasty, if I could ask you to sit back in the ‑‑

LISTNUM 95 \l 18112             MR. MERASTY:  Yes, I will.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18113             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18114             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18115             My apologies for this.  Mr. Prokopie, you can go ahead with your presentation for the Missinipi Broadcasting Corporation.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18116             Thank you.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 95 \l 18117             MR. PROKOPIE:  Good morning, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, Commission staff.  Unfortunately Deborah Charles, MBC's CEO, is unable to be here today.  She needed to depart Regina quickly yesterday afternoon.  Her hope was to be back here for this morning.  Unfortunately that hasn't happened, so I will do my best to present her case.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18118             I filed, this morning, some papers with the Commission secretary with regards to some notes that I will be working from at this point in time.  I may not read them exactly verbatim, but I'll touch on the points that I think are certainly important towards our intervention.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18119             Number 1, MBC's objection to Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting Ltd.'s application is based on a number of salient points.  From the lack of community involvement in the selection of trustees, to the inclusion of only one Aboriginal person in the trustees' list, to the generic survey provided, to the complete absence of cultural programming, it is clear that Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting Ltd.'s application lacks substantial meaningful participation by Aboriginal people.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18120             Number 2, Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting Ltd.'s application has no mechanism of accountability to Aboriginal people.  The trust structure it proposes offers one seat of four to an appointed Aboriginal with no mandated responsibility to serve the Aboriginal community.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18121             Number 3, Aboriginal people cannot accept that the trust structure is sufficiently accountable to the Aboriginal community especially given the fact that only one of the trustees, again, is of First Nations descent.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18122             Number 4, a major flaw in the Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting Ltd. application is the claim that Rawlco Radio and 629112 Saskatchewan Limited are the only companies likely even to consider creating such a station.  In our view, this statement by the applicants demonstrates their total disregard for the capacity of the Aboriginal community to create a radio station by, about and for the Aboriginal people.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18123             This premise is weakened all the more by the applicant's failure to acknowledge the fact that MBC, a dedicated Aboriginal broadcast organization already exists and serves the vast majority of Saskatchewan's Aboriginal population, including those in Saskatoon in 104.1 FM.  With the ‑‑ and MBC does it with the most culturally attuned and relevant radio programming in the market done in the Cree, Dene, Michif and English languages.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18124             Number 5, the absence of a plan to deliver substantial and meaningful cultural programming further underscores the application's shortcomings and why it is inappropriate for these applicants to launch an Aboriginal radio station.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18125             Saskatoon Radio Broadcasting Ltd. does not offer the quality and quantity of specific cultural and linguistic, not to mention social content in their application that would speak to the real needs of Aboriginal people.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18126             To overlook primary programming elements such as broadcasts in Aboriginal languages is a clear sign of the applicant's inability to recognize and therefore address the true range of needs and interests of the Aboriginal population.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18127             Number 6, we find it somewhat ludicrous to suggest that a top 40 station that with programming that appeals to Aboriginal and non‑Aboriginal young people alike could be a seminal point in the history of Saskatoon.  Such a statement, at its best, is exceedingly disgenerous and fulsome in its artful pretense.  Any radio station that purports to serve Aboriginal people and fails to offer content that reflects the distinct needs and interests of this audience will fail to serve them in the degree they deserve.

LISTNUM 95 \l 18128             Number 7, MBC feels certain that our prospects for Aboriginal people living in urban centres, and in particular our youth, will not be impacted in any significant positive way by the applicants proposed undertaking.  Their proposal is essentially a conventional commercial radio station with a modicum of current events, information of interest to the target demographic.  We agree that a radio station can contribute to and reflect a healthy Aboriginal community.  However, we find nothing in the applicant's documentation to support