TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

                       SUBJECT/SUJET:

VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

Conference Centre                     Centre de conférences

Outaouais Room                        Salle Outaouais

Portage IV                            Portage IV

140 Promenade du Portage              140, promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                      Gatineau (Québec)

March 28, 2007                        Le 28 mars 2007

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

                 Transcript / Transcription

            VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /

            PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

BEFORE / DEVANT:

Rita Cugini                       Chairperson / Présidente

Michel Arpin                      Commissioner / Conseiller

Richard French                    Commissioner / Conseiller

Barbara Cram                      Commissioner / Conseillère

Helen del Val                     Commissioner / Conseillère

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Jade Roy                          Secretary / Secrétaire

Valérie Dionne                    Legal Counsel /

Conseillère juridique

Joe Aguiar                        Hearing Manager /

Gérant de l'audience

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

Conference Centre                 Centre de conférences

Outaouais Room                    Salle Outaouais

Portage IV                        Portage IV

140 Promenade du Portage          140, promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                  Gatineau (Québec)

March 28, 2007                    Le 28 mars 2007

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

                                                 PAGE / PARA

PHASE III

REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:

Kenneth R. Schaffer                               458 / 2893

Diversity Television Inc.                         468 / 2929

National Broadcast Reading Service (OBCI)         475 / 2957

Avis de recherche inc. and All Points             485 / 2998

  Bulletin Incorporated

Faith and Spirit Media Inc.                       493 / 3026

Pelmorex Communications Inc.                      499 / 3047

Canadian Broadcasting Corporation                 508 / 3088

PHASE I

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

Joco Communications Inc.                          520 / 3148

William Wrightshell (OBCI)                        581 / 3545

Newcap Inc.                                       630 / 3900

Connelly Communications Inc.                      717 / 4430

                      ERRATA / ADDENDA

                           ACTION

March 27, 2007 (Volume 1)

Page 302,        "80 pour cent" s/b "85 pour cent"

Line 10,

Para 2110

                  Gatineau Quebec / Gatineau (Québec)

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Wednesday, March 28, 2007

    at 0900 / L'audience débute le mercredi 28 mars

    2007 à 0900

LISTNUM 1 \l 1 \s 28882888             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.  Madame Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12889             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you Madame Chair.  For the record, Diversity Television has filed the revised nature of service, and the breakdown of original programming and acquired programming.  These documents are going to be available in the Examination Room.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12890             And now we will proceed to Phase III in which applicants can apply to all interventions submitted on their application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12891             I would like to mention that Astral Broadcasting and YTV mentioned that they will not appear in this Phase.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12892             And now I would ask Kenneth Schaffer to make your presentation.  You have ten minutes for this purpose.  Thank you.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 12893             MR. SCHAFFER:  Hello, bonjour.  Thank you again, Madame Commissioner and the Commission for allowing us to appear and talk about these issues on the interventions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12894             I am pleased to be able to respond to the interventions, both written and presented at the hearings.  My comments will speak to, I suppose ‑‑ two general areas raised ‑‑ well actually a little bit more than that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12895             The first area of comment concerns the appropriateness of 91H as a way to address the public priority and the overall financial viability of the basic cable tier.  It comes as no surprise that the BDU's are arguing against any new service attaining the 91H MUST CARRY designation.  They have been arguing this since the MUST CARRY was created.  And no one would expect them to say anything else in their defense.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12896             As I mentioned in the presentation earlier, one of MMTN's biggest problems is that the BDU's have become the gatekeepers for the Canadian Broadcasting system.  And have the de facto power to decide what services go forward and what do not.  This creates a problem of enormous chaos, especially for aboriginal concerns, and of course, Metis specific television here in this country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12897             While we have been arguing that the Metis Aboriginal Television Network addresses the core shortcoming in the current system, the BDU's have declined to consider carriage as they do not see the services being of value to their bottom line.  And that really is what it is ‑‑ it's the bottom line agenda, more than anything.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12898             This raises the question of who sets the public policy here, the CRTC or the BDU's.  In ‑‑ I think in a lot of people's opinions ‑‑ that when we look at what goes on in Canadian Broadcasting history, that the BDU's kind of take the approach that they are the Commission.  And they don't want their hands tied, but they don't mind tying up the Commission's hands.  In it's question, following my presentation on Tuesday, the panel indicated that they are wrestling with the question of how much is too much for basic cable, and what should be included in this package.  This is a fair question, and one that the Commission will have to answer both here and in the over the air migration proceedings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12899             However, this may also require the Commission to consider some previous decisions that have been provided.  A MUST CARRY with fee subscriber category one status to services I would suggest, fall much lower on the list of public priorities than the Metis Mitchell Television Network.  It is a little strange to have the Commission in that position, or in the position that your hands would be tied, and that the overall explanation from Shaw is to have regulatory ‑‑ satellite BDU regulatory ‑‑ I guess definitions ‑‑ that would impose problems for you to actually make decisions on the future of Canadian broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12900             Shaw advocates deregulation.  And that's fine.  In a way, really, we look at this from the same point of view.  When I went over the interventions, I was stuck with over and over again with the same thing ‑‑ that really it goes to show that what the BDU's are asking for is that nobody be a MUST CARRY.  And if we look at this from historical past ‑‑ and I must bring up the fact of the job shops as part of this ‑‑ and the fact that we have applied now ‑‑ we have actually handed in a Category One license to you‑‑ but when I do this, I go back in history and I say ‑‑ now what happened with the job shops was it took one night for the Attorney General to decide that we were being beaten up by the newspaper, the major dailies across this country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12901             What happens here in this instance is very similar to this Broadcasting Act.  Whether it's the Employment Agencies act, or whether it's the Broadcasting Act, it puts everybody in the same parallel situation, of chaos.  In other words, what happened was the newspapers were stating that we were in violation of the Employment Agencies Act, yet they were the ones that were bullying us and they were in the same position, so therefore, the Attorney General overnight turned around and said if they have the right to run, so do we.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12902             The same thing works within the broadcasting situation.  If we are not given the latitude and the ability to basically launch and have that same quality as spoken underneath the language of the Broadcasting Act, well then that impedes our rights, and therefore, what that does, is it creates discrimination.  And the only way to really kind of settle it is either to give us the MUST CARRY decision or to have everybody be denied.  And that's what happened in the Saskatchewan decision for the job shops.  It was either that the newspapers quit or they allow us to do our job in the job shop end of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12903             So the same thing works here.  We're a Metis Television Network.  We're asking for a quality.  We're asking for all the same things.  APTN has less than 1 % Metis programming on that network.  And this comes to the area of programming.  We're hard pressed to find any other broadcasting companies out there that have any more Metis programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12904             APTN and other interventions make note that Vision, APTN and others MUST CARRY and MMTN will take a market share of what they have.  Well, with only 1% of Metis content in the APTN model, we're not really taking any of their share, really.  And what it really comes down to, is the aboriginal task force on broadcasting has stated that APTN is predominantly an Inuit broadcaster.  And that's right in the actual report.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12905             MMTN has been denied access to a market share, and it's also been denied access to I guess the same things that Vision and APTN and CPAC get to enjoy, the protection under the 91H and that is what the one thing that everybody's making a big mistake on here.  Not the Commission, but the BTU's and their interventions, when they come to you and they say that we do not meet that exceptional standard for MUST CARRY, and we do as the Metis people of this country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12906             So the CRTC points out that the programming and part of what we have to come up with ‑‑ and we must point out, APTN, Vision and others are not given ‑‑ they were not given unrealistic conditions to watch their network ‑‑ and we were given unrealistic conditions of license for decision two thousand, two, three forty five.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12907             With the BDU's being the gatekeeper, they locked us out as tight as they could.  And really ‑‑ it really makes no sense ‑‑ in a supposedly a world where they want to be aboriginal friendly.  It doesn't show any kind of aboriginal friendliness whatsoever, or a commitment to completing the Broadcasting Act.  And like I say, they have been very good at tying your hands, but they don't want their hands tied.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12908             Because of the unrealistic conditions that were placed on MMTN, most of the certainty put into ‑‑ this certainly puts us into a terrible position.  In fact, the only position that can be realized is that we were being set up to fail.  And that's the only thing that we can really honestly say.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12909             And, according to the Act, it's language of a quality ‑‑ is MMTN is denied 91H than all 91H designators should be denied, until further access and protection is granted to the Metis Mitchell Television Network.  You must do the right thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12910             Legally, the Counsel, or legally, you must do the right thing, and cancel all 91H licenses in Category One or Two.  It doesn't really matter.  You must let MMTN have that protection, or you must cancel that.  It is a situation of a human rights factor.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12911             The Attorney General would agree that this has been unrealistic conditions for us to launch.  We are certainly willing to ‑‑ I have had many conversations with the Attorney General's office about this ‑‑ and it would be basically because of discrimination.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12912             The BDU's must then, if the intention of the CRTC is to deny MMTN a 91H, deny all, again, networks carriage, just as MMTN has been denied, this has caused us again, a great amount of chaos.  MMTN does not meet ‑‑ or does, I'm sorry ‑‑ MMTN meets the taste test as far as the exceptional aspect of this application for 91H MUST CARRY.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12913             And I understand that the interventions came back from Shaw last night and Rogers and they were very complacent on the fact that the digital system was created and the 91H kind of ties up the digital system by granting MUST CARRY designation to certain broadcasters.  Again, though, they're not looking at the exceptional status of this.  They have ignored the exceptional status of this application to the Commission and they have done everything they can to make sure that it doesn't come to the agenda.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12914             Basically, what has gone on in the past, and through the interventions, is that there is a little bit of positiveness to it from the APTN part of it, but there's also a lot of intimidation and antagonizing to the Metis Television Network, and to Metis programming through APTN specifically.  I mean, I, as a broadcaster ‑‑ not a broadcaster, but as a producer, really don't want to do business with APTN any more.  They have not really filled the need, and they don't want to fill the need.  So it makes it completely difficult.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12915             But now that I'm now a little more understanding of the hearing process, I have to make note of the fact that it's been a learning process for me and I thank you for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12916             And on the area of programming again, we look at the programming aspect of this ‑‑ cause APTN brings this up ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12917             THE SECRETARY:  I'm sorry Mr. Schaffer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12918             MR. SCHAFFER:  I think that if they were in the same position ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12919             THE SECRETARY:  I'm sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12920             MR. SCHAFFER:  They wouldn't be able to.  I'm sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12921             THE SECRETARY:  Can you please just conclude.  Your time has expired.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12922             MR. SCHAFFER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12923             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12924             MR. SCHAFFER:  All right.  Again, as I say, I don't think that if they had to go through the same thing that we do, and try to get carriage from the satellite or BTU's, without the 91H carriage, they ‑‑ you would hear nothing but chaos stories coming out of them.  We have been doing this for seven years, just on this area alone.  And it is frustrating, so with that said, I could go on and on and on, but I'm sure we can talk about other things later.  Thank you for allowing us this opportunity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12925             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Schaffer, Ms. Schaffer, Mr. Gustin, thank you very much for your comments this morning.  We have no questions for you.  Madame Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12926             MR. SCHAFFER:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12927             THE SECRETARY:  And now I would ask Diversity Television to respond to all the interventions that were filed to their applications.

‑‑‑ Pause.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12928             THE SECRETARY:  Please present yourself, and you have 10 minutes.  Thank you.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 12929             MR. DE SYLVA:  Thank you.  Good morning, Madame Chair, and Commissioners.  I would like to introduce first of all the panel this morning, many of whom all of us who you've seen yesterday. I'm Paul De Sylva.  And this is Amos Adetuyi beside me.  And beside him is Patricia Scarlett.  Beside me on my right is Jim Byrd.  And beside Jim, is Joel Fortune, and Floyd Kane beside him.  And in the back row, Les Lawrence from Diversity, and Wayne Albo, our financial consultant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12930             Thank you for the opportunity to reply to intervention.  We have of course filed written replies to the written interventions, Madame Chair, and we have received ‑‑ so these comments will be somewhat abbreviated this morning.  I'm sure everybody will be relieved to hear that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12931             First, we would like to thank the many positive interveners in this proceeding, who wrote letters in support of Canada One TV.  Many of these interveners provided personal accounts supporting the comprehensive research in our application.  They have spoken of the challenges they face as visible minority and aboriginal Canadians in finding an outlet for their talents.  And even in seeing themselves and their stories represented on television.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12932             You will recall our existential discussion yesterday.  Many of these letters express directly the importance of insuring full representation of Canadian society on television.  You heard at first hand yesterday submissions from the prospective of a parent, second generation young Canadians, from an experienced producer and broadcaster, still waiting for change, and from a committed advocate against the marginalization and disenfranchisement in the system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12933             Personally, I was moved by what they said, and it reinforced for me the importance of what we are proposing to do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12934             Now I would like to respond to a few of the comments made yesterday by various broadcasting distribution undertakings. We were struck by how the BDU's universally each attacked not so much our application, as the entire notion of any pro‑active action within the framework of the Broadcasting Act.  Despite what the BDU's say, televisions will still be in the living rooms of homes across the nation tomorrow, and for a good many years to come.  And Canadians will continue to be BDU subscribers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12935             We agree with the Commission that the basic level of service remains relevant.  That it will continue to be relevant in a digital environment, and that the basic level of service should and can fulfil certain important broadcasting policy objectives.  Technology has not, and it will not, render obsolete, reasoned, sensible regulation to achieve broadcasting policy objectives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12936             We were also struck by how little effort was spent by the BDU's universally on commenting seriously on the applications being considered in this proceeding, including our own.  We were gratified, however, to learn that Québecor considers our application to fulfil three out of the six criteria.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12937             Other BDU's said we didn't meet any, or that all broadcasting services met the criteria.  This is not a serious way to approach important issues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12938             Regarding the question raised by the BDU's of increasing the size of the basic service, and imposing new rules on BDU's, we note that the digital migration framework should, with time, lead to a smaller basic service, and more regulatory flexibility.  That is one of the objectives of the policy.  The cable BDU concerns seem to be in relation to the transitional period, rather than the end point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12939             As visible minority people have been waiting a long time for change, we have some sympathy for the BDU's.  We note, in any case, that those concerns don't really apply to Canada One.  As a new service, Canada One will need to be carried by all larger BDU's, cable, and satellite.  There is no lack of competitive parity there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12940             With respect to the concerns expressed by the CCSA, Canada One has suggested carriage on larger BDU's.  The smallest BDU's represented by the CCSA would, similar to past CRTC rules, not be required to distribute our service.  We discussed yesterday, the possibility that Canada One TV could be subject to an order requiring carriage only by Class One BDU's and DTH undertakings in English language markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12941             As we discussed yesterday, we would accept those carriage terms, reluctantly, if the Commission was satisfied that carriage in Class Two systems would pose an undue burden on those systems.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12942             An argument was also made that some subscribers should not have to supposedly "subsidize" the services that would be of interest to others.  Commissioner's first and second generation Canadians buy through basic service to purchase foreign language channels.  Indeed, all visible minority and aboriginal peoples pay basic service just like any other subscriber.  The services on basic, as we have shown, which include the strongest Canadian conventional TV brands, as well as the multi ethnic services, do not adequately reflect the citizens in the highest cost, highest impact, and most intensely funded programming drama.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12943             We suggest that these individuals are already paying a much larger cross subsidy to the system, if it can be called that, than we are asking from others.  That to us, is the unfairness, that needs to be addressed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12944             We can though, agree with the BDU's on one point.  Our application, and your decision, is about choice.  Where we differ with BDU's, is that we believe that Canadian citizens who do not now see the system serving them as Canadians, deserve that choice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12945             Some may say that may be important.  But, is it exceptionally important?  One's perception on that question may depend on where you sit.  I can tell you that it is exceptionally important to me, our team, the people who have supported us in this initiative, and to many, many of the six million visible minority and aboriginal peoples in Canada.  It will also be exceptionally important to many of the one million new immigrants arriving every four years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12946             The Broadcasting Act and Section 3.1.D speaks directly about the broadcasting system serving the needs and interests and reflecting the circumstances and aspirations of all Canadians, and reflecting the multi‑cultural and multi‑racial nature of Canadian society.  We have shown how there is still significant under representation in the broadcasting system and in its' opportunities.  This persists, despite years of initiatives and government and regulatory pressures.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12947             The current state of representation in the broadcasting system sends a direct message to visible minorities and aboriginal peoples that they are not a full part of Canadian society.  We believe that this is damaging to Canada ‑‑ actually is damaging to all Canadians ‑‑ and is not consistent with the Broadcasting Act.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12948             We have shown how Canadian society is becoming more multi‑cultural and multi‑racial.  The demographic projections are all well known. It is exceptionally important that we, as a Society, act now, while we have the ability to make a difference to ease that change.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12949             We don't want to look back and think about the opportunity we missed.  The broadcasting system is a powerful social and yes, economic force, and we should not underestimate the impact that it can have.  The positive difference it can make.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12950             Look at the APTN example.  It is time, we feel, to make a bold step, that can change the poor position in which visible minorities find themselves in mainstream broadcasting in Canada.  And that will make our system even better and stronger to deal with change in the future.  Madame Chair and Commissioners, I thank you for your courtesy and attention in this process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12951             We have filed our take away work that was requested of us yesterday, regarding our nature of service and percentage of original hours.  On the question of our nature of service, we have clarified the portion regarding the qualifying conditions be met by all programming exempted on the service.  We state:

"All of the programming on Canada One TV will reflect multi‑cultural and multi‑racial themes and perspectives"

LISTNUM 1 \l 12952             Meaning more specifically, it will be relevant to, and reflect the lives, cultures, and expression of visible minorities and aboriginal people in Canada.  We have provided an explanation of how we would determine relevance for Canadian and non‑Canadian programming, and we would accept those explanations as part of the nature of service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12953             We will continue to be equally bound by our commitment to consult and interact regularly with our advisory council regarding the application of the nature of our service.  We would be pleased, Madame Chair, to answer any questions you may have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12954             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. de Sylva, and your colleagues, thank you very much for your comments this morning.  We have no further questions for you.  Thank you.  Madame Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12955             MR. DE SYLVA:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12956             THE SECRETARY:  I will now ask the National Broadcast Reading Service (NBRS) to come forward.  Please introduce yourself, and you have 10 minutes.  Thank you.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 12957             MR. WESEEN:  Thank you and good morning Commissioners.  My name is Gerald Weseen.  To my left is Debra McLaughlin.  To her left is Rob Malcolmson.  To my right is Stuart Robertson.  And to his right is Betty Nobel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12958             Madame Chair, members of the Commission, before beginning our reply to the interventions that were presented last evening, we would like to address two key concerns that were raised by the Commission following our presentation yesterday.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12959             First, the Media Access Trust, and the proposal to transfer any excess earnings from the operations of the accessible channel to the Trust.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12960             In response to the Commission's concerns, let us say for the record that we are prepared to eliminate the Trust altogether.  This means that any earnings will be retained by the licensee company, and fully reinvested in the accessible channel, and therefore the Canadian Broadcasting system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12961             Second, with respect to our proposed 20 cent pass through fee.  In response to concerns about affordability of the basic service, while at the same time taking into account the requirements of our business plan, we are prepared to reduce our requested pass through fee from 20 cents to 18 cents in years four through seven of the license term, when digital penetration has ramped up.  This represents a 10% reduction in our pass through fee.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12962             In our view, the reduction in pass through fees strikes an appropriate balance between the important issue of affordability and the equally fundamental issue of providing a high quality, relevant and engaging program schedule to Canada's blind and vision impaired community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12963             We would also like to address two proposed conditions of license discussed during our presentation.  Commissioner Cram asked what percentage of the 500 hours per year of new described programming would constitute Canadian programming.  We are pleased to advise that we would accept a condition of license requiring that 150 hours per year, or 30%, would be Canadian programming.  And this is because the bulk of the existing described programming in the system today is Canadian.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12964             Next, we are prepared to accept a condition of license that no less than 50% of programming that be accessible channelling engages a third party to describe, will be sourced to description companies other that Audio Vision Canada, or any other entity related to NBRS.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12965             We continue to believe that quality of work and competitive price must be the ultimate barometer for choosing a supplier, but this minimum commitment to services other than AVC, indicates good faith.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12966             We trust this response to the issues raised during our presentation, and we confirm it for the record, that we will file written responses to the various undertakings that we discussed during our presentation by the close of proceedings on Friday.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12967             We would now like to respond to the various interventions that were presented last evening, but before we do, we would like to take this opportunity to thank the over 900 interveners that supported this application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12968             The BDU's agree that this is a service that should be carried on their systems.  We heard, for example, from Mr. Engelhart of Rogers that we have lots of room, and the accessible channels should be carried.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12969             We heard from Mr. Frank of Bell Video Group, that the goal is to get as much described programming on air as possible.  While the BDU's admit that accessible channel will serve the needs of the vision impaired community, they remain steadfast in their resolve not to distribute their service other than on terms that they dictate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12970             Madame Chair, members of the Commission, it's clear to us that without MUST CARRY status, the accessible channel will simply never become a reality.  It's also clear from the record, that there are a multitude of problems preventing the delivery of described video programming to the vision impaired.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12971             In our submission, the problems identified, not only by us in our testimony, but also by the BDU's themselves in their interventions, established quite clearly that only a MUST CARRY, 24 hour a day open description channel, can solve these barriers to access.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12972             In our presentation, we identified the accessibility challenges presented by the digital remote control.  None of the BDU's disputed this fact.  We also pointed out that high profile US acquired prime time programming is simply not being provided in described form.  Quite simply, if it's going to be described, we are going to have to do it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12973             We heard from Mr. Allan of Rogers that described video pass through as ultimately dependent upon the will of US decoder manufacturers like Motorola and Scientific Atlanta.  Without DVC capability installed in the box by the US manufacturer, it's clear that the problems with pass through will continue to plague our digital world.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12974             In our view, members of Canada's vision impaired community should not have to wait until US hardware suppliers determine if and when pass through capability will be made available.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12975             We further heard from Mr. Allan that Rogers does not control the printed programming guides that identify available described programming.  He is correct.  This is yet another barrier to accessibility that is beyond the control of the vision impaired community, and indeed, the BDU's.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12976             The BDU's were also quite forthright in admitting that what little described programming is available on the system today, is not being consistently passed through.  For example, Mr. Ferris from Shaw Star Choice stated that their analogue receivers don't accept the SAP stream, and that on the digital side of the equation, pass through is admittedly not where it needs to be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12977             And Mr. Boyd on behalf of the CCSA, described that the pass through efforts of their members as sporadic in the analogue world, and non‑existent in digital.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12978             The other key point to bear in mind is the amount of described programming that is available on the system today.  Based on current conditions of license, conventional broadcasters are required to pass through four hours per week, only two of which are original Canadian programs, and a limited number of specialty services are required to do just two hours per week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12979             We are appreciative of Bell Express View's efforts in the area of described video.  However, the fact remains that Bell Express View is only able to pass through what broadcasters are mandated to provide and only to those who choose to subscribe to satellite TV.  Bell Express View's solution is not a substitute for what the accessible channel would provide.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12980             The accessible channel would provide 168 hours per week of open described programming on one channel.  Compare this to the twelve hours per week of CTV, Global and CHUM programming that Bell Express View is currently mandated to pass through.  Only 50% of which is original.  We believe the benefit of our proposal is self‑evident.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12981             We also listened carefully to the concerns presented by Mr. Ray and Ms Leclair.  Their concern is one of ghetto‑ization.  They fear that the accessible channel will act as a substitute for the ongoing obligations of broadcasters and BDU's to provide and deliver described video programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12982             The record indicates that licensing the accessible channel will not be used by licensees to shirk from their regulatory obligations.  Commissioner Del Val asked each of the BDU's if they would maintain their pass through obligations if the accessible channel was licensed.  The answer in each case was yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12983             And last, but not least, is the issue of exceptional importance and the use of Section 91H.  The BDU's all deem the accessible channel not to be of exceptional importance and caution against using Section 91H in a digital world.  We disagree.  The fact is that Section 31P of the Broadcasting Act, a statute you are charged to administer, specifically requires that programming should be made accessible to disabled persons as resources become available for that purpose.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12984             The accessible channel has brought together all the necessary resources to provide a 24 hour open description channel.  It has harnesses advancements in technology to achieve real time, and short turn around description.  It has identified a multitude of programming sources, and it will utilize the description expertise of a Canadian pioneer, Audio Vision Canada, and others.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12985             In short, it has presented a complete solution that overcomes all of the barriers to accessibility that have been identified at this hearing.  We should also note that the Broadcasting Act does not restrict the use of Section 91H to the analogue world.  The powers granted to the Commission under Section 91H transcend technology.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12986             That's the issue for you Commissioners, is whether you're prepared to use Section 91H to accomplish the objective set out in Section 31P, and we think you should.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12987             Betty.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12988             MS. NOBEL:  Madame Chair, Commissioners, you heard from Mr. Stein of Shaw that the digital world is all about choice.  We agree.  Clearly, the vision impaired community wants one choice, the accessible channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12989             We heard yesterday from Ms. Leclair should do the right thing.  Providing mandatory carriage for the accessible channel is the right thing, as you have heard throughout this hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12990             For any proposal, there will be some opposition, but it is obvious from the many interventions that supported this application, that the vision impaired community wants the accessible channel to increase their access to, and enjoyment of, television programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12991             Without complaint, vision impaired cable subscribers have long supported a system that they can't completely access.  Now, the system needs to support us.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12992             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Del Val.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12993             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Thank you.  I only have one question arising from Bell Express View's intervention yesterday.  If the subscription base of DTH services that do pass through 100% of video described programming was taken out of your financial projections, would your business plan still be viable?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12994             MS MCLAUGHLIN:  I guess that depends on some of the conditions you asked us to commit to yesterday.  I mean obviously, we would have to go back and re‑work it.  I guess on a consumer basis, my concern would be that, while they provide options within the scope of what Canadian broadcasters provide now, it's really not going to improve the amount of selection in the system.  There will be no US.  There won't be a channel that you go to and it's simply description 24/7.  You do have to go through the range to find it.  And in some cases when there is no description, there's no soundtrack.  And for a vision impaired person, you wouldn't know where you are.  And in some cases, it's just the regular.  So you know, it's a long answer.  We'd have to re‑work it, but my concern would be, you're actually cutting out a whole portion of the value of the service we proposed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12995             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Thank you.  Thank you Madame Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12996             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Weseen and your colleagues, thank you very much for your comments this morning.  We do not have any more questions for you.  Thank you.  Madame Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12997             THE SECRETARY:  I would now ask Avis de Recherche and Mr. Geracitano and All Points Bulletin to come to the presentation table please.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 12998             LA SECRÉTAIRE:  Vous avez dix minutes pour répondre aux interventions.  Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12999             M. GÉRACITANO:  Merci.

Madame la Présidente, mesdames et messieurs les conseillers et membres du personnel, comme vous le savez, je suis Vincent Géracitano, président fondateur de Avis de recherche et All Points Bulletin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13000             Je vous remercie, tout d'abord, de m'offrir une dernière occasion de plaider ma cause devant vous.  J'ai entendu hier soir les représentants de l'industrie et de la distribution venir vous redire qu'ils s'opposaient à toutes les demandes de reconnaissance de statut 91H quelle que soit la nature du service et la mission qu'il ait accomplie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13001             Il n'y avait aucun élément nouveau dans leurs représentations, par rapport aux interventions écrites qu'ils avaient déjà déposées.  Et j'avais déjà réfuté point par point leur argument dans ma réplique écrite.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13002             Vos journées sont longues et ma nuit a été courte.  Je ne vais donc pas reprendre ce matin chacun de ces points.  Il y en a quelques‑uns, cependant, sur lesquels je voudrais revenir en tentant d'y apporter un éclairage nouveau.  Les EDR vous ont dit hier que, selon elles, Avis de recherche et All Points Bulletin ne servent pas l'intérêt public national.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13003             Permettez‑moi d'être insolent et de vous poser la question suivante:  Qui est le plus compétent pour établir si un service contribue à la sécurité publique?  Ces quelques distributeurs, au nom de leur intérêt comme... économique privé, ou les hauts responsables politiques et milliers d'experts ouvrant concrètement en sécurité publique qui nous ont appuyés à travers de leur association ou des organismes qui les emploient?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13004             Rassurez‑vous que je ne vais pas toutes les nommer.  Mais je veux souligner, parmi les quelque 150 interventions à l'appui à nos demandes figurent, entre autres, le ministère de la Sécurité publique de l'Alberta, du Nouveau‑Brunswick et du Québec, la Gendarmerie royale du Canada, la Sureté du Québec, la Police provinciale de l'Ontario, The B.C. Association of Chiefs of Police, ainsi que The Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13005             Presque tous les chefs de police municipaux ou régionaux de pratiquement toutes les grandes villes canadiennes, de Halifax à Vancouver, en passant par St. John, Québec, Montréal, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Edmonton et Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13006             De nombreuses associations nationales et provinciales regroupant des dizaines de milliers de policiers et policières de toutes les régions du Canada.  Près de 40 maires ou conseils municipaux d'autant de villes canadiennes, des dizaines d'organismes de prévention ou de protection civile, tels Canadian Crime Stoppers Association, Service d'incendie de Montréal, Sun Youth, Jeunesse Soleil, the Missing Children's Network et l'Association de sécurité civile du Québec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13007             Je crois que poser la question c'est y répondre.  Certains de ces distributeurs vous ont dit que même si vous reconnaissiez qu'ils servent l'intérêt public national, il n'y avait nul besoin de rendre la distribution de mes services obligatoire.  Il suffisait de les laisser négocier avec moi de bonne foi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13008             Parlons‑en.  Avis de recherche est distribué par Vidéotron à mes frais depuis octobre 2004.  Depuis ce temps et même avant, j'ai sollicité des rencontres avec tous les grands distributeurs du Canada pour les convaincre de distribuer mes services.  Je leur ai écrit et téléphoné; je leur ai transmis un dossier complet sur notre service en ondes, ainsi que les témoignages d'appréciation des corps policiers avec lesquels nous collaborons.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13009             Rien ni fit.  La plupart d'entre eux n'ont jamais retourné mes appels, accusé réception de mes lettres ou accepté de me rencontrer.  La réalité c'est qu'ils n'ont aucun intérêt à distribuer des services dont la mission fondamentale et exclusive est de servir l'intérêt public national.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13010             Ce qu'ils veulent, ils vous l'ont dit, d'ailleurs, ce sont des services ayant un "mass appeal", des services divertissants, attrayants, susceptibles d'attirer des auditoires dignes des émissions les plus populaires, ce qui est en contradiction profonde avec la nature de mes services, qui ne comportent pas une seule émission de divertissement et qui se refuse à tout sensationnalisme.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13011             Leur mission n'est pas de diffuser ni de chercher à concurrencer C.S.I. Las Vegas, American Idol, Royal Air Farce ou Hockey Night in Canada.  Elle est d'offrir aux organismes chargés d'appliquer la loi des occasions constantes et quotidiennes d'entrer en relation avec les communautés qu'ils desservent et d'obtenir d'elles des informations utiles à retrouver le plus grand nombre possible des 65 000 enfants qui disparaissent chaque année au Canada, à capturer les criminels en fuite ou des personnes en liberté illégale et à prévenir de nouveaux crimes, fraudes ou accidents. Bref, rendre la société canadienne plus sécuritaire et respectueuse des lois.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13012             J'avais avec moi, hier, des responsables de la G.R.C. et du service de police de la ville de Montréal qui sont venus vous dire que ça marchait, que ça donnait des résultats très concrets, tangibles, appréciables.  Et vous avez aux dossiers publics plusieurs dizaines de témoignages d'autres corps policiers et organismes qui le confirment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13013             Quelle meilleure preuve puis‑je vous fournir?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13014             MR. GERACITANO:  The distributors also came here and argued that all that matters is that the consumer must be left with the freedom to choose.  However, for a consumer to be able to exercise that freedom, it would help if our services were to be placed on the menu.  And that is something that the distributors have failed to do, despite several years of effort on my part.  So whose freedom are they really looking out after?  The consumers, or their own.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13015             Those opposing my applications have also argued that the financial burden placed on consumers because of the additional costs would jeopardize the transition to digital.  Let's be serious.  To put the numbers into perspective, at six cents per month, a consumer would be able to subscribe to 500 years of All Points Bulletin for what is essentially the difference in cost between a regular 32 inch TV set, and an HD compatible TV set.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13016             Madame President, who can argue that 72 cents per year represents an infinitesimal fraction compared to the benefits of public security that such a service can generate.  Isn't the life a single child worth the cost of half a cup of instant coffee per year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13017             En terminant, madame la présidente, je voudrais souligner qu'Avis de recherche et All Points Bulletin ne sont pas des services qui s'adressent à un groupe étroitement défini ou ciblé de téléspectateurs canadiens ou qui visent à répondre aux besoins ou à défendre les intérêts particuliers d'un groupe.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13018             Nos services s'adressent à l'ensemble des téléspectateurs canadiens et leur diffusion au service numérique de base contribuerait à améliorer la sécurité publique de l'ensemble de la société, des communautés et des citoyens canadiens.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13019             Je pense avoir démontré qu'Avis de recherche et All Points Bulletin servent, effectivement, l'intérêt public national.  J'ai soumis aussi tous les éléments démontrant que sans distribution obligatoire au service numérique de base, ses services, non seulement ne pourront pas remplir adéquatement cette mission, mais qu'ils seront condamnés à disparaître.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13020             Almost three weeks ago, I paid our only distributor another $52,000 as I was once again threatened with having the service disconnected.  Within a week of the payment, the phone rang once again.  It was our collection department demanding more money.  As I mentioned yesterday, despite the fact that we offer a public service that benefits the community, we must pay for doing so.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13021             Some of the very same people that claim to have the consumers' interests at heart, send letters such as this one threatening to disconnect the service that provides a valuable service to the community, unless they are paid.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13022             Due to the seriousness of the matter that we broadcast, and because we are only available on one single distributor in Quebec, we are unable to generate any advertising revenues.  I suppose that if we were to broadcast images of pretty girls on a beach late at night, inviting viewers to call 900 services, we can maybe make ends meet.  But in my opinion, that would detract from the seriousness of the mission, and jeopardize our credibility as a public interest service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13023             C'est pourquoi, madame la Présidente, je vous demande de rejeter les arguments des distributeurs et de reconnaître qu'Avis de recherche et All Points Bulletin servent l'intérêt public national et de leur accorder, en conséquence, une distribution obligatoire au service numérique (au service numérique de base, c'est‑à‑dire) de tous les grands distributeurs du Canada, chacun selon la langue du marché ou de l'abonné.  Je vous remercie de votre attention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13024             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Geracitano, thank you very much for your comments this morning.  Madame Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13025             THE SECRETARY:  And now I would ask Faith and Spirit Media to come to the table please.  Please introduce yourself, and you have 10 minutes to respond to the intervention.  Thank you.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 13026             MR. ROBERTS:  Thank you.  Madame Chair, Commissioners.  Thank you for having us back.  My name is Bill Roberts, President and CEO of Vision TV and with me to my right is Brant Kostandoff, our general Counsel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13027             On behalf of Vision TV, we have a few brief comments in reply to the interventions, both written and verbal from the BDU's.  We appreciate that this is not strictly speaking a competitive process.  But there is an natural inclination to compare the various applications for basic carriage.  In doing so, we want to thank Québecor Media as we have found the chart in their written intervention to be quite helpful in assessing the applications against the criteria established by the Commission, and against each other.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13028             While Québecor gave Vision TV a score of five out of six, second only to MéteoMédia and weather combined, we of course would score Vision TV a full six out of six.  Where we differ is in our view, that the broad distribution enabled by basic carriage is essential for Vision TV to fulfil it's mandate.  To nurture diversity and tolerance in Canada, and to achieve the policy objective of balance, multi‑faith religious content in the broadcasting system.  The BDU's are rightfully concerned about increasing the cost of basic service.  We share that concern, and urge the Commission to exercise caution when considering whether to grant licenses to new applicants looking for guaranteed distribution with substantial subscriber fees.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13029             But that's not the case with Vision TV.  Approving the Vision TV application does not, and will not, add to the cost of basic service.  It will enable Canada's multi‑faith channel to continue to fulfil a policy, and a policy objective the CRTC has identified as a priority for the system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13030             To sum, that may sound like an existing licensee seeking to maintain it's privileged status.  And to a certain extent, that's true.  But where interveners have suggested that such privilege is based solely on the date of licensing, in the case of Vision TV, that is not true.  Vision TV was licensed by the Commission in answer to a public policy imperative.  How to address religious broadcasting in Canada, given the challenges of single faith broadcasting in other jurisdictions, and to better reflect Canada's spiritual and cultural mosaic through television.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13031             A national, multi‑faith service was the CRTC's solution.  There is no other applicant for basic carriage that was licensed in response to a public policy initiative.  The CRTC has already found, as a matter of policy, that the distribution privilege granted to Vision TV is appropriate in the context of Canada's approach to religious broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13032             I want to spend a moment addressing the BDU's suggestion that we can rely on the market to achieve policy objectives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13033             Taken to an extreme, the argument suggests that we don't need any regulation in the Canadian Broadcasting system, that a market free of regulation will achieve the objectives of the Broadcasting Act all on it's own.  We disagree.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13034             In our view, the Chair of the CRTC had it right.  In his presentation to the CFTPA, in February, when he said, and I quote:

"...market forces are driven by strictly rational economic objectives.  They don't put any value on culture per se, yet, broadly speaking, the prime goal of the Broadcasting Act is to safeguard, enrich, and strengthen Canadian culture.  The goal thus becomes one of directing or steering market forces, so that they lead to the attainment of the objectives of the Broadcasting Act."

LISTNUM 1 \l 13035             End of quote.  There is a need for regulation to ensure the cultural priorities of the Act are being achieved, and that the broadcasting system is nurturing Canadian identity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13036             Because the basic television service is at the core of the broadcasting system, it is appropriate that it should be subjected to a higher standard of regulation to achieve the policy priorities established by the Commission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13037             The BDU's, and Rogers in particular, have attempted to establish that the dual status services do not require basic carriage to sustain a viable business model.  But the question raised in Visional Migration framework, was not whether a basic carriage is necessary for a business model, we acknowledge many services have demonstrated success without basic distribution.  The question was whether basic carriage is essential to the business plan, and implementation of the specific commitments of the applicant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13038             For Vision TV, there is a substantive risk to viability if digital basic carriage is not approved.  But it will be impossible for Vision TV to maintain it's high level of investment in Canadian programming, to continue exhibiting 65% Canadian content, and most important, to fulfil it's mandate as Canada's multi‑faith channel without broad, national distribution as part of the basic digital service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13039             The BDU's have also argued that the exceptional importance of the dual status services have not been established.  But they have failed to address Vision TV's national and international award winning contributions to the advancement of diversity, tolerance, and religious freedom.  All of which are values fundamental to Canadian identity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13040             The advancement and exploration of religion is recognized by Canadian society to be in the public interest.  And the Commission has held religion to be a matter of public concern.  Vision TV's exceptional importance to ensure that a balanced, civil, and diverse presentation of faith perspectives is to all Canadians.  That objective can only be achieved with Vision TV's continued distribution in the digital basic service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13041             There is no other channel that will assure the Canadian Broadcasting system reflects our nation's multi‑faith heritage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13042             Again, to borrow from the Chair's remarks at the prime time conference, the basic service should be, quote:

"a special place within the broadcasting system for Canadian voices, points of view, and ways of expressing ourselves."

LISTNUM 1 \l 13043             End of quote.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13044             Reflecting the varied religious practices and diverse beliefs of all Canadians, Vision TV is unique.  The only channel of it's kind in the world.  Vision TV makes an exceptional contribution to gain expression, and is deserving of a special place in the broadcasting system.  A place in the digital basic service.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13045             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Roberts, Mr. Kostandoff, thank you very much for your participation this morning.  Madame Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13046             THE SECRETARY:  I would now ask Pelmorex to come to the presentation table please.  Please present yourself, and you have ten minutes to respond to the interventions.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 13047             MR. TEMPLE:  If I might, just a little omission from yesterday, if I could just have a moment.  When we listed the services, or the provinces that were joining our project to disseminate provincial warnings, in addition to Nova Scotia and the Yukon Territory, we had forgotten Prince Edward Island.  And just because they're the smallest, we didn't want to further embarrass them and get ourselves in trouble, so I promised I would mention them.  So they will also be participating in the morning project.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13048             MR. MORRISSETTE:  Good morning, Madame Chair, Vice‑Chairs, members of the Commission.  My name is Pierre Morrissette, President and CEO of Pelmorex Communications Inc., licensee of the Weather Network.  With me today, to my left, are Luc Perreault, Vice‑President Affiliate and government relations.  Beside him, Sheryl Plouffe, News Editor for the Weather Network.  To my right, Paul Temple, Senior Vice‑President, Regulatory and Strategic Affairs, and Alysia Charlton, our Senior Vice‑President and Chief Financial Officer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13049             Before we address the comments of the few opposing interveners, I would like to thank the 15,000 Canadians who individually wrote in support of our application.  Almost half of these letters received by the Commission are in binders beside me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13050             In addition, the Commission received petitions containing more than 2,000 names, and we received at our offices, hundreds of additional supporting phone calls from individuals that do not have the language skills, or computer or fax equipment, to write the Commission.  Their message is unequivocal.  They asked you to ensure that our services are carried on basic for three reasons.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13051             First, these Canadians believe that the Weather Network and Metro Media are a public service and essential to their personal safety.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13052             Second, they do not want to pay more for our services, and many cannot afford to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13053             Third, they do not believe their satellite and cable providers will necessarily act in their best interests.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13054             In this reply, we will address the main issues raised by the four appearing interveners who oppose our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13055             BDU's suggested that a 91H order is inappropriate in the 21st century.  They fail to understand, however, that Section 91H is technology neutral, and is simply a means for the Commission to achieve the objectives of the Broadcasting Act.  It is a mechanism to implement the criteria outlined by the Commission in it's public notice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13056             It is, and remains, a perfectly appropriate approach for the Commission to use.  More significantly, no one who filed comments in this proceeding has contradicted the evidence we filed demonstrating the exceptional importance of our services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13057             The only large BDU that applied to Commission's complete test to our services was Quebecois.  And it found that we did in fact, meet the criteria set out in the public notice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13058             The fact that other BDU's have said that none of the applicants have demonstrated the exceptional importance of their services is not surprising.  Because they do not want any applicant to be considered exceptional.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13059             MR. TEMPLE:  The second issue raised by the opposing BDU's, is that in a fiercely competitive digital distribution environment, a decision approving our application, with limit packaging flexibility and consumer choice.  The BDU market shows little evidence of competition.  BDU's life in the marketplace for high‑end, bundled customers with HD TV, and VOD offerings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13060             While the vast majority of the remaining customers have little real choice, most customers are still captive to their BDU, either because they've committed to capital investments for DTH equipment, or committed to buying bundles of services which makes switching between competitors a costly exercise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13061             Basic only subscribers are largely ignored.  The significant increases and the cost of basic service by these BDU's, which are noted in the attached table, further illustrate the lack of real competition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13062             Where else can competitors increase prices $3 at a time in unison?  A sufficiently competitive market simply does not exist to protect the interests of consumers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13063             Opposing BDU's have also argued against approval of our application in the name of consumer choice.  In the digital universe, true subscriber choice is in practice, a myth.  It is uneconomical and impractical for consumers and distributors alike to deal in an a la carte world of 500 channels.  There will always be packages established by distributors.  These packages will always be promoted and produced by distributors.  Consumers will always be buying services they do not want because of these packaging decisions made by distributors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13064             In this case, however, consumers have told us they want the Weather Network and MéteoMédia offered as part of the basic service, and they do not want that choice made by BDU's.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13065             When rate reductions are extracted from us, to remain on basic, or when we are tiered, the financial benefit will flow only to the BDU.  The consumer will not benefit.  Where is the choice?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13066             MR. MORRISSETTE:  The next point that we wish to address is the argument by the four interveners that our programming is readily available from other sources.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13067             Literally thousands of Canadians wrote to the Commission in this proceeding to say that they depend on our programming because there are no reasonable alternatives.  They said in many rural communities and small towns, the Weather Network and Metro Media are the only source of local weather.  Even in larger Canadian centres, up to date weather and road safety information may be restricted to a few newscasts a day, and unavailable on weekends.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13068             One third of Canadians do not have personal computers in the home, let alone internet access.  These Canadians include some of Canada's most vulnerable groups, like low income families, the disabled, and seniors.  No other broadcaster provides Canadians with up to date local weather every ten minutes.  No one else has weather warnings, watches, or advisories, or takes the time to explain the significance of severe weather.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13069             No one else carries all provincial warnings, local UV reports, and pollen reports.  The programming we provide is simply not available elsewhere on a regular and easily accessible basis for all Canadians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13070             M. PERREAULT:  Hier, les EDR vous ont dit que Pelmorex a bénéficié du statut double pendant près de vingt ans.  Nous reconnaissons ce fait et nous savons aussi qu'il a bénéficié à la stabilité de notre entreprise.  C'est certainement une des raisons principales qui font que notre entreprise est toujours, aujourd'hui, indépendante.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13071             Cette offre a contribué à l'atteinte des objectifs de la loi sur la radiodiffusion et a aussi grandement bénéficié aux consommateurs.  Mais le focus de cette instance est sur les vingt prochaines années, sur l'avenir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13072             Sans l'offre du service de Météomédia ou Weather Network au service de base numérique, les Canadiens n'auront plus accès à des prévisions météorologiques, à des avertissements et à des bulletins sur l'état des routes à un prix abordable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13073             De plus, sans l'offre au service de base numérique, notre modèle d'affaires devrait être sérieusement révisé.  Nous devrons * focusser + davantage sur les grands centres urbains et aurons de la difficulté à desservir les petites communautés rurales comme nous le faisons actuellement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13074             De plus, il serait difficile pour nous de mettre à niveau les équipements de localisation desservant ces régions rurales.  Notre offre de services dans les deux langues officielles, aux deux communautés linguistiques du Canada serait aussi mise en péril.

Il faut noter, de façon importante, que près de soixante‑dix câblodistributeurs du Québec, y incluant Vidéotron, sont intervenus dans cette instance, afin de vous dire qu'un changement dans le statut de distribution de nos services aurait un impact sur l'offre de nos services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13075             Les petits câblodistributeurs vous ont dit de façon un‑équivoque (ph.) que l'approbation de cette application assurerait que ces petits "cablos" seraient traités d'égal à égal avec les grands systèmes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13076             MR. MORRISSETTE:  If our application is denied, the only people enriched will be major BDU's operating in Anglophone markets.  Everyone else will lose.  Requiring BDU's to distribute the weather network and Metro Media as part of the digital basic service, serves the public interest and furthers the objectives of the Broadcasting Act.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13077             It is the only way the Commission can ensure that all Canadians, whether they live in rural areas, or urban communities, whether they have modest incomes, and whether they are francophone or Anglophone, continue to have access to weather, public safety, and environmental programming that is essential to their personal safety.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13078             Our services will only remain affordable and accessible to all Canadians if our application is approved.  Thank you.  I will be pleased to answer any questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13079             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Vice‑Chairman Arpin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13080             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Mr. Morrissette, or whoever, are you carried on basic, on Express View and Star Choice, or ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13081             MR. MORRISSETTE:  Yes, we are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13082             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13083             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Morrissette.

‑‑‑ Laughter

LISTNUM 1 \l 13084             MR. MORRISSETTE:  I could qualify that.  During the term of our current agreement, we are carried on basic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13085             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Okay, I understand the qualification as well as on the other side.  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Laughter

LISTNUM 1 \l 13086             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for your comments this morning.  We don't have any further questions.  Madame Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13087             THE SECRETARY:  CANAL Corporation pour l'avancement de nouvelles applications des langages and TV5 Québec Canada have informed us that they will not be appearing in Phase III.  I would now ask Canadian Broadcasting Corporation to respond to all the interventions that were filed to their applications.  Please introduce yourself.  Thank you.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 13088             MR. TREMBLAY:  Good morning, Madame Chair, Vice‑Chairs, Commissioners, and CRTC staff.  My name is Michel Tremblay, and I am CBC Canada's Vice‑President, Strategy and Business Development.  With me today are Sylvain Lafrance, vice‑président principal des services français and Richard Stursberg, Executive Vice‑President, English Television.  A la droite de Sylvain Lafrance, Alain Saulnier, directeur général de l'information des services français.  On Richard's left, is Tony Buman, Editor‑in‑Chief, CBC News.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13089             Behind us are Robert Nadeau, Marilyn Goodwin, Manager, Market Research, and Heaton Dyer, Newsworld Program Director.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13090             Our remarks are in response to interventions received both in support and opposition to the applications by Newsworld and RVI for mandatory carriage on digital basic as contemplated in the CRTC's digital migration framework.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13091             M. TREMBLAY:  Tout d'abord, nous souhaitons remercier sincèrement les quelques 200 Canadiens et associations qui ont manifesté avec force leur appui à l'égard de ces demandes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13092             Les intervenants se sont exprimés sur le rôle essentiel que joue Newsworld et le RDI, en proposant une perspective canadienne sur les événements internationaux, en diffusant les nouvelles de toutes les régions du pays, en fournissant un lien vital pour les francophones qui vivent à l'extérieur du Québec et en facilitant et en lançant un dialogue national sur les questions de culture, de société d'économie et de politique qui nous définissent et façonnent notre pays.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13093             Ils ont aussi affirmé que Newsworld et le RDI revêtent un caractère exceptionnel à cet égard et que leur mandat de service public les distingue de tous les autres services dans le système canadien de radiodiffusion.  Selon eux, ces services sont d'une importance telle qu'ils doivent être accessibles au plus grand nombre de Canadiens possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13094             Aucun consommateur canadien ne s'est opposé à nos demandes.  Ce degré d'appui est conforme au résultat du sondage que nous avons produit avec nos demandes, et qui indique que 93 pour‑cent des abonnés croient que Newsworld et RDI devraient être toujours être offerts sur le service de base.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13095             M. LAFRANCE:  Les distributeurs ont affirmé collectivement qu'aucun des services canadiens visés par cette demande, y compris RDI et Newsworld n'a réussi a démontrer son importance exceptionnelle.  Nous voulons nous opposer avec vigueur à cette position étonnante.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13096             Pour plusieurs raisons le RDI est un service essentiel qui doit être offert à la population sur le service de base des distributeurs.  Depuis le début de mon mandat, je conçois et j'explique que le rôle fondamental d'un service public de radiodiffusion est d'améliorer la qualité de la vie démocratique et culturelle de nos concitoyens.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13097             Aujourd'hui plus que jamais, j'ai l'occasion de parler concrètement de ce concept grâce au RDI qui en est un parfait exemple.  Le réseau de l'information de Radio‑Canada, en raison de son important réseau journalistique à travers le Canada et dans le monde, est le seul réseau de nouvelles francophones canadien qui, dans sa couverture des événements survenant au Canada et dans le monde entier, fouille en profondeur, expose des répercussions et offre une mise en contexte pertinente.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13098             La programmation du RDI est canadienne dans une proportion de plus de 90 pour‑cent. Ses journalistes apportent un point de vue typiquement canadien à tous les événements, qu'ils proviennent des quatre coins du pays ou du reste de la planète.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13099             Le RDI est disponible, à l'heure actuelle, à plus de dix millions d'abonnés au Canada.  En fournissant des services d'information en continu accessibles en tout temps, partout au Canada sur le service de base des distributeurs, le RDI demeure un outil important de cohésion sociale.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13100             Près de un Canadien francophone sur deux accorde chaque semaine sa confiance au RDI pour se renseigner sur ce qui se passe dans le monde, dans le pays et dans sa région.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13101             Le RDI revêt clairement une importance exceptionnelle dans l'atteinte de plusieurs objectifs clés de la loi sur la radiodiffusion.  Par exemple, fournir de l'information et de l'analyse concernant le Canada et l'étranger, considéré d'un point de vue canadien, servir à sauvegarder, enrichir et renforcer la structure culturelle, politique, sociale et économique du Canada, refléter la dualité linguistique de la société canadienne.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13102             Le réseau de l'information de Radio‑Canada représente un lien vital entre les communautés francophones dispersées partout sur le territoire canadien.  RDI est le seul à pouvoir remplir ce rôle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13103             Pour la plupart d'entre elles, c'est un instrument précieux de promotion de la langue française et des valeurs culturelles et sociales du Canada.  C'est le seul réseau d'information en continu qui assure une présence et un reflet des préoccupations des francophones de toutes les régions du pays.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13104             Parmi les nombreuses interventions favorables des associations de francophones, je vous souligne, par exemple, celle de la Fédération des communautés francophones et acadiennes, un organisme national qui regroupe vingt et une associations provinciales et territoriales.  Je la cite:

" RDI représente une source de nouvelles essentielle pour les francophones vivant en milieu minoritaire.  C'est pourquoi les communautés francophones et acadiennes se sont d'ailleurs mobilisées, il y a une décennie, pour assurer que la majorité des câblodistributeurs offre RCI au service de base.  Les francophones du pays reçoivent RCI à la base... RDI à la base (pardon!) depuis dix ans.  C'est pour eux un service essentiel."

(Fin de la citation)

LISTNUM 1 \l 13105             MR. STURSBERG:  Newsworld also makes an exceptional contribution.  It delivers unparalleled international coverage with the support of 14 bureaus around the world.  The most extensive international coverage of any Canadian television news service, giving us a window on the world through Canadian eyes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13106             As a universally available service, Newsworld is overwhelmingly the destination of choice for English Canadians in times of national crises, whether it is the shootings at Dawson College, the murder of the RCMP officers at Mayerthorpe, or the SARS crisis.  It provides unmatched, live event coverage with 330 hours each year on average.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13107             It has coverage in every region of the country.  Connecting Canadians to each other in the news as it happens.  We bring the nation to the nation, through election coverage.  We cover every provincial and federal election in depth, and from beginning to end.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13108             There is extensive collaboration between Newsworld and RDI on news gathering, reporting, and documentary making, ensuring English Canadians understand the point of view and perspective of French Canada and vise versa.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13109             The BDU's have presented no evidence or analysis to challenge the case put forward by Newsworld and RDI that they make an exceptionally important contribution.  They simply do not address the merits of our applications.   Canadians, however, believe that these services make an exceptional contribution and strongly support the idea that they should continue to be universally available to as many Canadians as possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13110             The BDU's in general and Rogers specifically, claim that mandatory carriage is unnecessary.  Rogers claims that we are over estimating the impact because digital migration will not occur that quickly.  The BDU's may choose not to move services off basic, and that if services are moved off basic, any loss of subscriber revenue could quote:

"be largely offset by increases to subscriber rates"

LISTNUM 1 \l 13111             If any of that were true, we would not be here before you today.  We see the potential impact of digital migration on Newsworld and RDI as very real.  The migration framework could well jeopardize the availability of these services and their capacity to continue to provide an essential service to Canadians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13112             The BDU's have also said that mandatory carriage is inappropriate.  We could not disagree more.  The broadcasting system in Canada is undergoing fundamental change.  All of the major news assets in this country are now held by three, and potentially only two private sector players.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13113             Consolidation creates synergies.  However, it also leads to a potential radical reduction in diversity of voice, and uniformity of editorial perspective.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13114             Newsworld and RDI provide Canadians with an important alternative source of news and a distinct editorial perspective.  In this context, mandatory distribution is absolutely vital.  To quote from the Senate Committee's report last year on media concentration:

"In a world of media concentration and cross‑media ownership, the importance of the CBC as an alternate source of news and information programming is greater than ever."

LISTNUM 1 \l 13115             M. TREMBLAY:  En conclusion, nous sommes convaincus que nos demandes prouvent que les services qu'offrent RDI et Newsworld sont d'une importance exceptionnelle dans l'accomplissement des objectifs clés de la loi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13116             Nous avons aussi démontré qu'il est absolument nécessaire que le RDI et Newsworld restent accessibles sur les services de base des distributeurs partout au Canada pour pouvoir maintenir leur contribution unique et essentielle.  Les distributeurs n'ont présenté aucune preuve qui conteste ces aspects essentiels de nos demandes et celles‑ci reçoivent un appui unanime des citoyens qui sont intervenus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13117             Merci de votre attention, nous nous ferons un plaisir de répondre à vos questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13118             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Vice‑Chairman Arpin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13119             COMMISSIONER ARPIN:  Thank you, Ms. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13120             Ma question est la même que j'ai posée à Météomédia.  Est‑ce que Express Vu et Star Choice distribuent Newsworld et RDI à la base présentement?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13121             M. TREMBLAY:  Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13122             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Et c'est selon des ententes contractuelles?  C'est... parce que c'est historique, effectivement...

LISTNUM 1 \l 13123             M. TREMBLAY:  Des ententes historiques, effectivement qui ont été mises en place.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13124             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  Parce que ce n'est pas la réglementation qui fait que vous êtes présentement à la base sur Star Choice et sur Express Vu?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13125             M. TREMBLAY:  Pour l'instant, oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13126             CONSEILLER ARPIN:  D'accord.  Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13127             Merci madame.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13128             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13129             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  I note that you are proposing that the wholesale rate would be the same.  And I am going to show how long I've been around, but my memory is the increase granted both Newsworld and RDI included money for the purchase of some capital.  And they were the mobile trucks.  So why would that portion of the increase continue?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13130             MR. BURMAN:  Our plan ‑‑ I was actually as you may recall, I was at that ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13131             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yeah, it was a wonderful time, whenever years ago ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13132             MR. BURMAN:  A memorable moment in our lives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13133             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13134             MR. BURMAN:  I mean, I think our intention then was to use the increase to direct, to increase our ability to cover live coverage, to cover live events.  And we've done that, we've done than in a variety of ways.  Including the purchase of trucks, but a lot of our capital has been directed into other technologies which we really didn't anticipate then.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13135             I mean, I think our kind of financial goal then ‑‑ and I think we've maintained it, was to use the rate increase, keep it as such, and as the ‑‑ as our live coverage expands over the years, and it has, far more than we anticipated ‑‑ six or seven years ago, that we would use that money to provide that coverage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13136             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  Thank you Madame Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13137             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Tremblay, Mr. Stursberg, and your colleagues, thank you very much for your comments this morning.  Madame Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13138             THE SECRETARY:  This completes the considerations of items 1 to 12 on the agenda.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13139             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Legal counsel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13140             MS DIONNE:  Mr. Schaffer, the applicant for Metis Mitchell television network, mentioned in his reply comments that they filed an application for a category one license.  I would like to clarify for the record that this application will not be considered as part of this proceeding.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13141             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Madame Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13142             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with item 13 on the agenda, which is an application by JOCO Communications Inc., for a license to operate an English language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13143             THE CHAIRPERSON:  My apologies.  The Commission is going to take a 15 minute break at this point, and allow you to collect your thoughts in between proceed ‑‑ in between applications.  We will resume at 10:35.  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 10:21 a.m.

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 10:40 a.m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13144             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.  Madame Secretary.  You can call the next applicant please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13145             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with item 13 on the agenda, which is an application by JOCO Communications Inc. for a license to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13146             The new station would operate on frequency 94.5 Mhz, Channel 233A, with an effective radiated power of 1,350 watts, non‑directional antenna, antenna height of 168.3 metres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13147             Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Joe Cormier, who will introduce his colleagues.  You will then have 20 minutes for your presentation.  Thank you.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13148             MR. CORMIER:  Hi, my name is Joseph Cormier, the President of JOCO Communications Inc. and with me is my wife Monique Audette.  Before I start my presentation, I would like to, Madame Chair, Vice‑Chair and the Commissioner, to note a deficiency in response to a question you made in the letter dated Tuesday, March 20th, regarding CCD contributions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13149             Okay, we add in here that the question was:  please confirm your understanding that under the new policy, no less than 20% of this annual over and above CCD contribution will be allocated to factor or music action.  What percentage of your annual over and above the CCD commitment do you wish to allocate to either factor or music action, and what dollars amount would this be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13150             It's not a big mistake, it's just that JOCO Communication confirms the understanding and we wish to allocate ‑‑ we had put 25% ‑‑ but it should be written 20%.  It's just a typo, okay, so I don't know if you want me to read all the rest of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13151             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's fine, that correction is ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13152             MR. CORMIER: Okay, thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13153             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13154             MR. CORMIER:  Thanks.  Okay, JOCO Communication will be a vital asset to the City of Greater Sudbury, because we are a locally owned and operated.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13155             Our objectives will be to operate a de‑centralized business structure, where the station is locally owned and operated to serve the city of Greater Sudbury without the interference of a hierarchy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13156             The decision making process is made locally, fast and efficiently.  On the basis of greater local autonomy, we will provide the community with professionalized higher quality radio.  We're gonna know the needs of the people, because we are locally owned and operated.  We can answer questions right away when questions are asked, without going higher.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13157             We will have the power to develop local community news, information, and interest.  We will also, for example, inform people about school boards and town council meetings, school cancellation, city history.  We're getting a historian to talk about the city.  We do the same thing in our little operation in Sturgeon Falls.  It works very well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13158             We'll feature the best in citizen critics, giving reviews of local arts and entertainment.  It was a need that people were talking to us about in Sudbury.  So we're going to offer that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13159             One viable rule for radio is reaching out to people during a disaster.  We'll reach out to the community, and when in crisis, our priority is to broadcast up to the minute updates in emergency situations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13160             We will also act like a communications headquarters for local police, fire departments, city officials.  An example, when we had the power outage, we had the CEO of Sturgeon Falls to come in and do the live updates from the source itself, without us taking the information.  We got him right on the radio to tell the people of Sturgeon Falls what was going in.  It works pretty good.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13161             We are heavily invested in operating and marketing helping advertisers build their business of course.  We maintain a strong focus on connecting with the community it serves, through creating partnerships with local groups, community leaders, charities, special causes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13162             For example, the telethon.  We aired that in Sturgeon Falls.  By far the biggest local Canadian artist show I think is the local telethon, cause it's all local people. So we give some good Canadian content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13163             Also the dragon boat races, relay for life.  We always participate in that.  It's a fun event too.  So broadcasting from a local level is what will make JOCO Communications great and unique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13164             Sudbury radio history.  In the past, Sudbury had an oldies radio station, which is what we're applying for.  It is apparent it was not feasible for other operators to keep it running as such, due to high cost, resulting in a flip format, causing disappoint among listeners, advertisers, and other radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13165             Our company's projections are attainable for this type of music format, due to realistic business plan, geared to this demographic. Maybe I'll explain that a little bit more.  It's what we get from people from Sudbury.  We live there, we know what the people want, what the people will miss, and this is a big concern, this format being flipped, without them knowing about it.  And also formats being applied for and they're not playing that music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13166             I'm not putting nothing against no one here, it's just something that was told to us.  We're bringing the message from Sudbury to the CRTC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13167             Format stability.  When radio stations change their musical format, for whatever reason, the citizens are left feeling ‑‑ feeling of importance, which has been demonstrated in several interventions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13168             Music is personal, and every generation has their favourite song.  Being a DJ for 25 years, I know how people get when they can't hear their song.  Music is part of everyday life, and people can relate to lyrics, which makes it very important to hear their favourite song.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13169             And I'm sure everyone here went to a wedding and said you know, can I hear this song.  If they can't hear it, they're disappointed.  So imagine having a format flipped, how the people must feel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13170             Sudbury will have their oldies radio station back.  And we will never change the format.  Reasons why ‑‑ we will be operating on a realistic budget.  We have high standards of ethics, and will commit to our musical format.  We respect the importance of music to the older generation would compromise as over 60,000 in the age group of 45 and over.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13171             It is not perceived well with the music industry when a musical format is changed, especially if you're playing a kind of music, and you flip it and ‑‑ you know ‑‑ you're paying royalties on that, so these people are not getting their royalties no more, so it's not perceived very well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13172             It would take credibility away from our company.  And we respect the Broadcast Act, and the CRTC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13173             Another reason why local ownership rules.  Living in the community you serve, we give people the ability, the voice, to voice their opinion and whether it's good or bad to comment.  It is vital for the long run that all comments be seriously taken and looked at at every angle, before making any decision.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13174             Our market study is conservative and realistic.  Conducting a market study back in August of 2005, we proved that indeed Sudbury had a market for an oldies radio station.  We believe that our projections are conservative and realistic, and will ensure success and longevity of this station.  We are committed to providing a unique oldies format for the older citizens of Sudbury for years to come.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13175             I've put here like about costs and that.  If you can't run a station cause it costs too much, or you need format, we have a solution to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13176             The benefits of lower cost of operation.  With our power being 1,350 watts, the lowest power transmitter of all applications, we will keep our costs of broadcasting low and affordable.  We will be consuming less energy, lowering costs of broadcasting to ensure format stability.  And also, it's very environmentally ‑‑ it's more environmentally friendly, using less hydro.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13177             Some bigger transmitters consume up to 35 times more power than ours.  The power we're applying for ‑‑ if you look at our engineering brief ‑‑ it'll cover the area very well.  There won't be any problem, there won't be any lack of signal anywhere.  We've already proved that.  And we believe that less cost, plus energy efficiency, equals a successful business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13178             Costs being a major factor in operating a successful business.  We believe this is a great way to reduce costs without losing quality of broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13179             Now we're going into diversity.  The strength of JOCO Communications is in our people.  We are committed to recruiting and retaining diverse talent by creating an environment that is integrated diversity and inclusions of all aspects of our operation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13180             We are an equal opportunity employer, where all will be encouraged to apply.  We will commit to reflect the cultural diversity of Canada in our programming and employment practices, especially with respect to news, music, and promotion of Canadian artists.  And emerging artists, and local artists, of course.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13181             Our strength at JOCO Communications is the diversity of our people, thoughts, and ideas, all working together to meet and exceed the expectations of our listeners, and our clients.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13182             Now they had asked me a question about internet streaming and podcasting.  Local radio broadcasting is a world that has been put on the back burner with the onset of internet networking.  We are choosing not to broadcast via the internet.  Our focus is the aging population in the community of greater Sudbury, consisting of the pioneers of our great city.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13183             We did our survey on older people, to see if they were interested in the internet, and there was no interest whatsoever.  There was some of the younger generation that do tune into the internet, but the older people, it's not a major concern.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13184             This radio station will allow our senior listener an opportunity to tune into a radio station which is not currently available to them at the present time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13185             Maybe they could throw away their vinyls and cassettes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13186             Okay, Canadian content.  JOCO Communications is pleased to provide local voices delivering important information at a community level.  Too often news of our friends and neighbours are passed over, and we miss hearing about their achievements, difficulties, and success.  JOCO Communication has always believed that Canada's strength is found in its' people.  By keeping in touch with one another, we promote our Canadian heritage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13187             We will air the Canadian National Anthem at 7:00 a.m., seven days a week, 365 days a year.  Like we've been doing in Sturgeon Falls since the inception of JOCO Radio.  And it's very well ‑‑ people love it.  They get up in the morning, they listen to the Canadian Anthem.  Some say they salute to it, and I mean it's something that people kind of forgot about.  You know, you gotta remind them, and let's put it on every day, and it is a Canadian radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13188             We have committed to contribution to the new Canadian Development, which we have in our application, over and above to our budget.  Not only do we commit to playing 40% Canadian content, JOCO Communication can attest to playing 100% of Canadian content on Canada Day. So Canada Day is Canada, you know, we got the call signs, the fireworks, and I don't want to say too much information in case people pick it up here, but we do the fireworks, and the call signs, and it's all Canadian music that day.  It's fun, and it's great.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13189             We will also commit to air the Christmas telethon live, which we've been doing in Sturgeon Falls for the last four years.  People that can't tune into the TV, they go in their car, or the people from out of town, they could tune into the radio for the telethon.  Which is by far the largest showcase of emerging local Canadian artists from Sudbury and the surrounding areas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13190             Over and above our CCD commitments, we will donate to local charities as part of everyday operation.  We don't wanna promise too much in case we can't fill it, so as part of an everyday commitment, which we've did in our other stations, we always gave a lot more, we'll do that as an everyday operation.  And if the Commission wants that in writing, we'll do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13191             Local and emerging Canadian artists.  Sudbury's local musicians will benefit through our show called "Homegrown".  The Canadian show on our ‑‑ we called it the Canadian show on our application ‑‑ but it's actually called "Homegrown".  This local music show features the best in emerging local talent, from Sturgeon Falls in northern Ontario.  For over four years, JOCO Communication has submerged itself in the local music scene, and it's on the cutting edge of promoting local artists who are making waves in the community.  So we take these artists, we bring them in the studio, you know, we record call signs for them, record their song ‑‑ I mean, they have their songs recorded.  So we put a call sign in front of their song, and every time their song goes on, there's a call sign that goes up in front of it.  And you know what, the people are so excited about that, it's crazy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13192             So "Homegrown" is aired every Sunday night at 7:00 p.m. in Sturgeon Falls.  Bands featured on the show receive exposure to thousands of listeners.  From the beginning, "Homegrown" has been on the cutting edge of exposing bands such as High Holy Days.  We've had them to open up to our grand opening of JOCO Radio and these guys ‑‑ since then, they've had two music videos, airing on Much Music, and they're from Sturgeon Falls.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13193             And they also opened for the biggest Canadian act, called Nickelback ‑‑ they've opened for them in Sudbury ‑‑ which they were exposed in front of 6,000 people.  And these guys, they always come into the station.  You know, they come in and hang out and they tell us how much they appreciate stuff like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13194             Rock Wilder, from Garden Village ‑‑ its' a little village close to Sturgeon Falls ‑‑ they're from there, we air them.  We also had them on our grand opening.  We also include Sudbury bands.  Roger West and the Bounty Hunters.  Sab's from North Bay.  I'm sure a lot of people know him.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13195             Claude Braudt from Sturgeon Falls.  Pierre Gingras from Verner Yvon Serre, former resident of Sturgeon Falls, now resides in Japan.  We got his website on our website to promote his concerts and stuff.  La Jeunesse Girard, former residents of Sturgeon Falls, now live in Ottawa.  They come down lots.  We play their music on Sunday night.  Also Angele Leblanc, which is a local artist.  We've received a lot of e‑mails thanking us for promoting local artists.  But I'll get Monique to read one that we just, just got from this girl.  Monique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13196             MS AUDETTE:  From Nancy Doubet.

"To JOCO993@yahoo.ca.

Monday, March 19th, 2007.

Subject:  Local artist

Angele Leblanc.  Hi guys.  I'm Angele Leblanc's mother, Nancy, and I want to thank you sincerely for playing Angele's songs on the local artist spots you have.  She was so happy and excited to hear herself on the radio.  It gave her a big boost to keep going.  As she is only eleven, she is achieving a great deal.  Even recording her very own song, with the help of European manager and recording studio out in Belgium.  She will be registered with SOCAN as well, coming in about a month or less.  I also wanted to know if she could have her website featured on your website page.  She wants to also put a link on her page to your web page as well to thank you playing her songs, if that's okay.

If so, here is her web page."

LISTNUM 1 \l 13197             They indicate the web page.

"Please let us know at this e‑mail.  We thank you sincerely and enjoy your station.  You have a great selection of songs.  Keep up the good work.  On behalf of Angele and myself, we thank you."

LISTNUM 1 \l 13198             Now because this was written on March 9th, I haven't had an opportunity to respond.  And we will do so, and we will place her website on our website, as requested.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13199             MR. CORMIER:  Thank you.  These are only a few of our local artists featured on Home Grown.  We have probably over 150 fro the area, musicians that were never featured before and now they're actually featured.  So people actually listen to their music.  Pierre Gingras came in the station one day, he says, hey, Joco, he calls me Joco, and gave me a big hug, and he showed me ‑‑ he took a photocopy of a SOCAN cheque.  That guy never received a cheque in his life, he's 52 years old.  He was so happy, he says it's the best gift I ever had.  It's just the thought, he told me you know, he says, the system works, you know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13200             It's nice, you played our songs, we're registered through SOCAN, I got a cheque here, so I'm bringing you a photocopy.  So we got it up by the station.  If you want a copy, we'll send on to CRTC also.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13201             Like I said, in Sturgeon Falls ‑‑ that's what goes on in Sturgeon Falls.  I'm just trying to create something here to show you how we promote local and emerging artists, which is very important.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13202             In Sturgeon Falls, Home Grown is a show that welcomes all local artists, regardless of race and culture.  So everybody's welcome here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13203             JOCO Communication will air a new music show in Sudbury also called Home Grown.  This show will feature special interviews, CD's, and songs by local bands.  JOCO Communication will create a forum for local unsigned band that is really unique in a market of our size, while exposing our audience to local talent.  In addition to Home Grown, we are committed to promoting new, local emerging artists through local concerts, events, contests and festivals, and cash donations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13204             Home Grown in Sudbury market will be featured two hours a week on Wednesday nights, due to the bigger population.  And also, on 80% of our musical format, a minimum of 10% will feature emerging local and Canadian artists, which will be aired during higher listenership, rather than late at night and early in the morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13205             Here's an example of how we're gonna do this.  Every ten songs played, one song will feature a Canadian and emerging artist, or local artist.  We're not gonna compete with other stations for the category of the song.  But it's gonna be new music that complements the format.  And we've checked with the older generation ‑‑ do you mind if we put one local or emerging, brand new artist on the format at every ten songs ‑‑ they said not at all, and we won't tune it out.  So I believe that will work really good.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13206             To conclude the presentation, we think JOCO Communications should be awarded this broadcast license for the following reason:

LISTNUM 1 \l 13207             We are the first company to submit an application of a radio station in the city of Greater Sudbury back in October, 2005.  We are locally owned and operated, making our main focus towards promoting local values and cultures which meet the needs and interests of the citizens of the greater city of Sudbury.  We have a proven track record of our commitment promoting musicians and composers from the local community.  We are offering the unique listening format with realistic projections, and instead of competing, we will increase diversity in the Sudbury radio market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13208             We will provide live coverage on community events, up to the minute information in time of regional and national crises.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13209             We have committed to airing a minimum of 40% Canadian content.  We have committed to airing emerging artists during peak hours of listenership.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13210             We have committed to creating a more energy efficient environment by transmitting at a lower power, which in turn is financially and environmentally friendly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13211             As a bonus of course, being locally owned and operated, our mandate is to create a model radio station in Sudbury where if you need to address any concerns, I the owner, will be accessible.  Thank you.  If you have any questions, please feel free to ask.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13212             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Cormier, Ms Audette, thank you very much, good morning, and welcome.  I was kind of glad, Mr. Cormier, when you were talking about how the older generation doesn't want to throw away their vinyl or cassettes, that you didn't mention 8 tracks ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter

LISTNUM 1 \l 13213             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Cause it would remind me of how many times I had to buy my favourite music and how long I've been around, so thanks for that.

‑‑‑ Laughter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13214             MR. CORMIER:  Oh, I'm there too.

‑‑‑ Laughter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13215             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I want to talk first about your format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13216             MR. CORMIER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13217             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Your proposed format.  I heard what you said in your opening statement about a station that had flipped and therefore the market misses the oldies format.  But through your assessment of the market, you say the format is lacking, and in response to deficiency questions in a letter dated January 5th, you said:

"We were able to prove there was indeed a market for a new oldies radio station in the Sudbury area last November when we applied for our broadcast license, which triggered the CRTC to launch a call for applications on July 15th."

LISTNUM 1 \l 13218             What did you mean by that?  Why do you think that because it triggered a call, it shows that there is a lack of this format in the Sudbury market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13219             MR. CORMIER:  Well, Madame Commissioner, I just figured that if they ‑‑ cause they've asked me ‑‑ they said do you still wanna go on with this license ‑‑ I said of course I do.  So you're gonna have to submit it, cause we're gonna call for other competing applicants to apply for a radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13220             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you saw it as ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13221             MR. CORMIER:  So I figured ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13222             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The possibility of competition for the format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13223             MR. CORMIER:  Yeah, yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13224             THE CHAIRPERSON:  As opposed to competition for the frequency?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13225             MR. CORMIER:  Yeah, yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13226             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, that's good.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13227             MR. CORMIER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13228             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Do you consider your proposal to be competitive with other applications in these proceedings?  Wrightsell for example has applied for an older adult contemporary format.  Halliburton ‑ new easy listening, including adult standards, soft adult contemporary, pop instrumentals, light classical, jazz, and folk and roots music.  Do you consider your application to be competitive with those?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13229             MR. CORMIER:  Oh, yes, I do.  And especially for the costs of operation.  Like in the past, if a company ‑‑ and I'm not gonna name anybody ‑‑ couldn't do it, and they had to quit the format, and there is excuse is cause we can't afford to run that format ‑‑ well, guess what, you gotta go to lower power, and you gotta cut costs down to be able to run that format.  More realistic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13230             I know we're not the big ‑‑ how can I say that ‑‑ we're not sophisticated I guess you could say, like the other stations.  We're a more small town station, okay.  And what we're gonna run here ‑‑ we're gonna make it on a budget that will allow that format to run forever.  You know, we're not gonna change it around.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13231             Cause if you'd see the people's reaction when a format is changed, you would not believe it.  I live in Sudbury, and I've experienced it, twice now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13232             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So your argument is that because you will be able to keep your costs down‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13233             MR. CORMIER:  Yes, exactly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13234             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The format is more sustainable, long term, than perhaps another applicant who may have to switch formats because their costs are higher than yours, and may have to switch to a more popular format, or a format that ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13235             MR. CORMIER:  Exactly.  You got that right on the money, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13236             THE CHAIRPERSON:  It's why I get to sit up here.

‑‑‑ Laughter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13237             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You proposed to devote 5% of your overall music to sub‑category 3, which is of course, jazz and blues.  Now your application was in fact submitted prior to the release of the new commercial radio policy, but are you aware that the new commercial radio policy requires that broadcasters devote at least 20% of their overall music to sub‑category 34, that is jazz and blues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13238             MR. CORMIER:  Okay, we could fix that for you and re‑submit, you know, if that's the only problem here.  We got no problem, cause the thing is, I wanna mix it in the regular format as well with blues and jazz.  Cause there's a lot of these Canadian artists, and you know, I've seen that in a lot of things, where people say ‑‑ well, you know, if we put too much emerging artists, we're gonna lose our audience.  That's not true.  Cause you know what, there's commercial ‑‑ there's radio stations playing commercials that are a lot longer than a song, and people never tune it out.  I've heard commercials on some stations where they got stop sets of six minutes, and a song is only three minutes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13239             So I'd rather hear a song from a brand new artist for three minutes, than listen to commercials for six minutes.  So I don't believe that if you play emerging artists, that the people are gonna tune out.  It's not true, and there's a lot of emerging artists out there.  Especially in the blues and jazz that I've never been exposed to a market like Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13240             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right, but I ‑‑ well I understand ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13241             MR. CORMIER:  Yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13242             THE CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ that you can play emerging artists within the category of jazz and blues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13243             MR. CORMIER:  Yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13244             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The question is, is your format viable if we are to impose a condition of license that says 20% of your music overall must be comprised of jazz and blues?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13245             MR. CORMIER:  It is viable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13246             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And would you, are you prepared to accept that as a condition of license?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13247             MR. CORMIER:  Yes, I am.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13248             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now because we've made this change, and originally you had said 5% of your music overall would be jazz and blues, we've now  increased it to 20%, we would have to now adjust the other categories, obviously.  And I don't know if you are prepared to do this now, but perhaps if you'd like to think about this, and do some homework ‑‑ because originally you said pop, rock and dance, 32%, easy listening, 32%, folk and folk oriented, 9%.  So we would have to adjust those percentages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13249             MR. CORMIER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13250             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And perhaps, I ‑‑ I don't know, are you prepared to do that now, or would you like to think about that and perhaps file at a later time with the Commission.  I'll let legal ‑‑ tell you when it is that you would file that information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13251             MR. CORMIER:  Well, what is better for the Commission at this point.  Like, do you want us to do that ‑‑ like ‑‑ you know, within a day, or is that how you're talking, or ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13252             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yeah, we would probably look for it by the end of the day.  Legal counsel?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13253             MS DIONNE:  Yes, or at the reply stage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13254             MR. CORMIER:  Okay, I'll have it for  the reply stage for tomorrow, thanks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13255             MS DIONNE:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13256             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You've agreed in your application, and you've repeated it today, to accept as a condition of license to broadcast a minimum of 40% Canadian content on this service.  Would that apply to the broadcast week and Monday to Friday from 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m., the regulatory periods?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13257             MR. CORMIER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13258             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you'll accept that as a condition ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13259             MR. CORMIER:  Yes, definitely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13260             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  In terms of emerging artists, thank you for more detail in your presentation this morning.  But in the ‑‑ in response to deficiencies in a letter dated January 5th, you say that you will be playing emerging artists from Category 3 only, Category 3 music only.  So what factors did you take into consideration in making that decision?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13261             MR. CORMIER:  Okay, the factor that I took is cause I don't wanna ‑‑ like, the other stations ‑‑ there's a whole bunch of stations in Sudbury, and if they followed the new rules, they're gonna have to play emerging artists and it's all in Category 2, so they're gonna be exposed to the ‑‑ quite a bit of people there.  The thing is about Category 2 music ‑‑ I wanted to match the format, you know.  It's hard to ‑‑ let's use for example, you're listening to Elvis Presley, or you, know, Sha Na Na, or whatever song's playing, and then Nickel Back comes on with a really heavy song, it doesn't really mix with that format.  But we could probably go with a Category 2 easy listening music for emerging artists if we have to go with Category 2.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13262             So I had figured a Category 3 is music that's not being exposed there already, so we wanted to give more exposure to that.  Like the Sons of Maxwell from Timmins ‑‑ nobody's ever heard of these guys ‑‑ and they're folk, you know, and they got really good music.  And there's so much of it, like there's so many artists like that from Alberta, Nova Scotia.  Also blues singers in Toronto, you know.  They play in these little bars, but these guys are so good.  Like nobody's ever been in the expos to those emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13263             So we figured a Category 3 would probably be the way to go.  But I'll note that on our Home Grown show we'll feature all local emerging artists.  In any category, it's gonna be a local show, and the people that I was speaking to ‑‑ the older generation ‑‑ they just love to hear that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13264             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And so, would it be 10% of your Category 3 music would be devoted to emerging artists, or 10% of your music programming overall?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13265             MR. CORMIER:  The music, the format would be 10%.  Probably more than that, but a minimum of 10% featuring local emerging artists.  Now from Category 2 or 3 it's gonna be hard to define, cause the local musicians, when they just start, they're not really categorized yet so, it's hard to define if they're ‑‑ you know what I mean ‑‑ they could be Category 2, Category 3, we're not sure until they get signed up with SOCAN.  And we help them out to do that too.  But I mean before they're signed up, it's pretty hard for them to get the exposure.  It's pretty hard for them to get that status of which category it is.  So I'm not sure how to answer your question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13266             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, we're looking for an indication as to what you would propose as a commitment to exposure of emerging artists as a percentage of your music program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13267             MR. CORMIER:  Oh, it's a ten per cent overall.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13268             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, and this is for my own education.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13269             MR. CORMIER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13270             THE CHAIRPERSON:  In your presentation this morning, when you talked about the local artists, that you recorded their CD, and you put a call sign.  What does that mean?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13271             MR. CORMIER:  Do you know what I do ‑‑ it's a call ‑‑ well, it's a call sign ‑‑ it's an I.D. for their song.  What they do for example, I'll say it in French here ‑‑ Si, à Claude Proulx... vous êtes à l'écoute de la station locale JOCO Radio, puis... this is our song ‑ It's...  You know, Pierre Gingras...  Hey!  This is High Holy Days and you're tuned into JOCO Radio, here's our brand new song, River Sticks, on her brand new album.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13272             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13273             MR. CORMIEER:  You know, bang, and then their song starts ‑‑ so this way here if we don't have guys ‑‑ like we have people in the daytime, but at night time, you know, sometimes we run voice tracks.  Like a lot of other operators do.  So we have a call sign.  So if there's nobody to introduce their song, you know what, they're still gonna be introduced.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13274             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you use it as a means by which to not only identify the artist, but identify the fact that JOCO Communications has supported them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13275             MR. CORMIER:  Yeah, exactly, and the artists really like that, because you know if somebody in town is driving around, they say hey, I just heard a song by High Holy Days last night at 1:00 in the morning, a really heavy tune, but it was good, you know.  Cause that's what we do, yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13276             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I'd like to now move to your spoken word programming and as it's been proposed in your application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13277             MR. CORMIER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13278             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You are proposing a total of 19 hours of spoken word.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13279             MR. CORMIER:  Yes, I am.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13280             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All of which will be locally produced, and the majority is comprised of news, and surveillance as well as a number of community minded programs that have been detailed in your application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13281             But when I look at your staffing levels, you include four on‑air staff, four sales people, one station manager, and one technician.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13282             MR. CORMIER:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13283             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can you take us through how the four on‑air personnel would produce this amount of spoken word programming?  In other words, it's a substantial commitment to spoken word, with four on‑air staff.  What are their functions, and how are they going to achieve this level of spoken word programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13284             MR. CORMIER:  Okay, good question.  We're gonna ‑‑ well, they're gonna work on four shifts.  We usually just have one person on the air, compared to having two of them at a time.  So that there, you know, if you get two people on air to do your morning show, and your day show and stuff, it uses twice the amount of staff.  So like I say, we're trying to cut costs to see how this station's gonna go, and we'll probably include more staff than that.  This is just a projection of what we're gonna do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13285             And to get our local content, well, the person's gonna want air, and they're gonna have to work, you know.  They're gonna have to do the news and the weathers, and when they're not doing that, they're gonna be pre‑recording some of it, you know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13286             Like the ‑‑ the updates are gonna be pre‑recorded.  The weathers will be pre‑recorded.  You know, you gotta, at the top and the bottom of your hour, is your news and weather.  But on ‑‑ at quarter after and quarter to is usually your news update and weather.  It's kind of a little pre‑recorded thing, and then you ‑‑ so like that ‑‑ we're gonna get our spoken word.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13287             Plus, we get a lot of locals.  Like the police show, it's all locally done.  We usually pre‑record it for reasons that sometimes if a person talks, like myself, if I talk too much, I could say the wrong thing, you know.  So we kinda record a ten minute show and we edit it and put it on air.  So that's the ten minute there of, you know, the spoken words.  And we'll repeat that program in the afternoon, so that the officer doesn't have to be in the area of your station no more.  He could go back to work, so there's a lot of it that's volunteer from the community, to get them involved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13288             The Mayor of West Nipissing, she's on the radio a couple of times a week, you know, with our on‑air guy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13289             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But with this complement of staff, who for example, would act as the News Director, to ensure accuracy of the news ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13290             MR. CORMIER:  Oh, the Manager.  The Station Manager.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13291             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Station manager.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13292             MR. CORMIER:  Oh yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13293             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good.  Would the Station Manager also be an on‑air person?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13294             MR. CORMIER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13295             THE CHAIRPERSON:  At times.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13296             MR. CORMIER:  Yes, for sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13297             THE CHAIRPERSON:  What assurances can you give us that this programming will be compelling enough to attract a radio audience to your station in this competitive market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13298             MR. CORMIER:  I, that's just something that I know.  I know how people are.  And I know people wanna hear Elvis Presley, and like the music ‑‑ the music, and the small town feeling that we're gonna put on this station ‑‑ the local artists that are gonna come in.  I got ‑‑ I got people, like, for example, Northern Music Resource ‑‑ this guy here, like, he's been in bands ‑‑ he's a ‑‑ he's a ‑‑ he's a studio musician.  I'm getting all excited here, cause I really like this stuff ‑‑ and what he's gonna do, he's gonna create programs, and they're gonna keep the interest of the people there.  Cause it lacks that.  They want the small town feeling back and I will bring that to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13299             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that will be achieved through your spoken word programming as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13300             MR. CORMIER:  Oh yeah, the spoken words, plus our shows.  A lot of the retired broadcasters too would like to make another appearance on an oldies station.  A lot of people wanna hear these guys, you know.  Rick Nelson is one guy that ‑‑ that was working for an oldies station in Sudbury before.  And he's ready to come back, you know.  So, we got lots of people like that ‑‑ Bob Woods.  They all wanna do radio shows.  So we're gonna include them, and it's gonna bring our spoken word up probably to more than 19 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13301             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  I heard you this morning in your presentation when you talked about how efficiently you're going to run this station.  But, in this application, the average salary of the on‑air talent seems to be around $23,000 a year.  On what basis did you forecast this salary level, and how viable is it to attract on‑air talent that is going to be able to produce this level of spoken word programming ‑‑ a level of spoken word programming that the audience will want to listen to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13302             MR. CORMIER:  Okay, I'm pretty confident about that because of the applications I've already received for jobs in this market due to a lot of people getting laid off from bigger operations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13303             A lot of people out of school, that wants to learn about broadcasting.  I got people from St. Marie, people from everywhere.  But a lot of people from Sudbury wants to come and work, and we base that salary, as a starting salary of course, until they could prove themselves.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13304             And, like I said, we're not gonna ‑‑ you know, if we need more staff ‑‑ we're making more money, we'll hire more staff.  But that ‑‑ to run like this ‑‑ the people are ready to take the wages that we have there.  Cause I've, I've spoken to them.  I've did many interviews.  And there's a lot of people, believe it or not, it's not a thing of money.  It's a thing of being on air, and ‑‑ you know, especially the older people.  There's a lot of people that are in their 50's and 60's that are applying for jobs, and it's just a ‑‑ you know ‑‑ I used to do radio, you know, I miss it, I wanna come back and work for you.  And you know what, I've got enough money, I don't really care about the wage ‑‑ so ‑‑ I'm not saying that we're gonna do that to everybody.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13305             We're gonna hire some young people that have the knowledge of new technology.  But I also wanna bring the old school guys back and women back to radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13306             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Are you planning to do any voice tracking, or automation?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13307             MR. CORMIER:  Well, we're gonna voice track some certain things, like I said, weather scans, cause you can't have a guy going on, or a woman going on, steady doing a small ‑‑ a small ‑‑ how can I say ‑‑ a small update.  But we'd like to voice track the evening hours, like you know.  It's a 24 hour operation.  So, yes, we're gonna voice track some.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13308             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So how are you defining the evening hours?  From what period to what period will the radio station be voice tracked?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13309             MR. CORMIER:  Well, we want to voice track from 11:00 p.m. until probably 6:00 a.m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13310             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And does that include the weekends?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13311             MR. CORMIER:  Yep.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13312             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And will you be live on the weekends, during the day?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13313             MR. CORMIER:  Oh yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13314             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Before 11:00 p.m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13315             MR. CORMIER:  Yeah, a lot of ‑‑ there's ‑‑ weekends I find we get a lot of live on‑locations too, so is that considered live, or ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13316             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm sorry ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13317             MR. CORMIER:  A live on location ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13318             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13319             MR. CORMIER:  Where you bring your vehicle ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13320             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  Do you anticipate any synergies with your station in Sturgeon Falls?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13321             MR. CORMIER:  No, not for the oldies station, cause we don't wanna image it the same way.  This is oldies, the other one is more of a top‑40 type radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13322             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So not even for any of your news programming, for example.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13323             MR. CORMIER:  Maybe, we're not sure yet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13324             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Any back office operation synergies ‑‑ accounting?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13325             MR. CORMIER:  Yeah, accounting will take care of the two operations.  So we'll use the accountant from Sturgeon Falls to, you know, kind of help us out in Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13326             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that also goes to the efficiencies of your cost efficiencies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13327             MR. CORMIER:  Well, there we go. Yeah.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13328             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right, now in terms of CCD.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13329             MR. CORMIER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13330             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for your responses of March 20th.  That certainly helped to clarify your CCD contributions and your further correction this morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13331             MR. CORMIER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13332