TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

                       SUBJECT/SUJET:

VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

Conference Centre                     Centre de conférences

Outaouais Room                        Salle Outaouais

Portage IV                            Portage IV

140 Promenade du Portage              140, promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                      Gatineau (Québec)

May 1st, 2007                         Le 1er mai 2007

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

                 Transcript / Transcription

            VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /

            PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

BEFORE / DEVANT:

Konrad W. von Finckenstein        Chairperson / Président

Rita Cugini                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Helen del Val                     Commissioner / Conseillère

Stuart Langford                   Commissioner / Conseiller

Elizabeth Duncan                  Commissioner / Conseillère

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Chantal Boulet                    Secretary / Secrétaire

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

Conference Centre                 Centre de conférences

Outaouais Room                    Salle Outaouais

Portage IV                        Portage IV

140 Promenade du Portage          140, promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                  Gatineau (Québec)

May 1st, 2007                     Le 1er mai 2007

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

                                                 PAGE / PARA

PHASE II

INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:

Suzette Couture                                   259 / 1590

Jack Rabinovich                                   261 / 1606

Jully Black                                       265 / 1627

Universal Music                                   270 / 1652

Plasma Management & Productions Inc.              274 / 1669

Corner Gas                                        304 / 1830

Epitome Pictures                                  313 / 1888

Patrick J. Hurley                                 348 / 2052

Communications, Energy and Paperworkers           365 / 2159

  Union of Canada

Illusions Entertainment Corporation               389 / 2310

Canadian Broadcasting Corporation                 416 / 2486

ACTRA                                             465 / 2815

Writers Guild of Canada                           495 / 3010

Canadian Recording Industry Association           512 / 3097

Canadian Independant Record Production            526 / 3177

  Association

Seneca College School of Communications Arts      536 / 3241

Manitoba Motion Picture Industry Association      549 / 3305

Canadian Film and Television Production           556 / 3347

  Association

Alberta Motion Picture Industries Association     579 / 3454

Association of Canadian Advertisers               587 / 3504

Canadian Association of Film Distributors         595 / 3560

  and Exporters

                 Gatineau, Quebec / Gatineau (Québec)

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Tuesday, May 1^st, 2007 at 0905 /

    L'audience débute le mardi 1^er mai 2007 à 0905

LISTNUM 1 \l 1 \s 15811581             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11582             Today is interventions day so we will be listening to the interventions.  We will listen to you in groups and then we will have questions for you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11583             If we do not have questions for any person in particular, it doesn't mean that we didn't listen to you or didn't appreciate your intervention, it just means your submission was clear and needs no further elucidation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11584             Before we proceed, Madam Boulet, you have certain announcements?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11585             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11586             Good morning, everyone.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11587             We will start by the first panel of five supporting intervenors.  We have Ms Suzette Couture, Jack Rabinovitch, Jully Black, Universal Music and Plasma Management & Productions Inc.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11588             We will start with Ms Suzette Couture and you each have 10 minutes for a presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11589             Please go ahead, Ms Couture.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 11590             MS COUTURE:  Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11591             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11592             MS COUTURE:  Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today in strong support of the CTVglobemedia's application to acquire CHUM Limited.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11593             My name is Suzette Couture and I am a screenwriter who lives and works in Canada.  My first feature film "La Florida" won the Golden Reel Award for the highest grossing Canadian movie of the year; my miniseries "Jesus" for CBS in the United States was nominated for an Emmy; and my last movie, for CTV, "The Man Who Lost Himself" was the highest‑rated television movie of 2005.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11594             But enough about me.  I strongly believe that the marriage of CTV and CHUM will bring more opportunities for high quality Canadian television.  CTV's commitment to achieving the highest possible quality in everything they do to support Canadian television and their stated commitment to nurture CHUM's differences can only mean that some very exciting television will be coming to our screens.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11595             Bringing together CTV and CHUM will give them each greater strength in an entertainment world that is now almost borderless.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11596             Bringing them together will also allow for greater opportunities to foster emerging talent.  Both companies have a dedication to developing emerging writers, directors and actors, and I believe this transaction will expand that capacity to nurture talent and showcase it on a larger scale.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11597             For that reason, I am also in full support of the proposed CHUM Writer Only Benefit.  The BCE/CTV Writer Only Benefit provided emerging writers and experienced writers with an unparalleled opportunity.  Writers must be moved by a story or an idea in order to fully pursue it with the kind of passion needed to write an exceptional script.  Sometimes that idea or story is a producer's and sometimes it is the writer's own.  The proposed Writer Only program is a rare opportunity for a writer to develop his or her own idea before involving a producer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11598             This is what writer's dream of, creative freedom in the early stages.  This kind of authorship is what has resulted in television history's finest programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11599             Providing key support to feature films and committing to maintaining CHUM's past levels of support for Canadian film is important for our industry as well.  To that extent, I am really excited by the drama funding included in the proposed benefits package for feature film, as well as that provided for television drama.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11600             In the end, all successful shows come down to the passion of the writer and the words that she puts down the page.  It will always be critical to the success of our industry that writers are allowed the freedom and the opportunities to create those stories, stories which will find an audience here at home and around the world.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11601             I have every confidence that the proposed acquisition of CHUM by CTV will enhance that freedom and opportunity to create.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11602             I thank you for this opportunity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11603             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11604             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11605             We will continue with Mr. Jack Rabinovitch's presentation.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 11606             MR. RABINOVITCH:  Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Commission.  My name is Jack Rabinovitch and I am here to support the proposal by CTVglobemedia to acquire effective control of CHUM Limited.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11607             The reason for my support is quite simple, they have done an outstanding job of supporting Canadian literature, Canadian authors and Canadian publishers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11608             As you may or may not know, I am the founder of the Giller Prize for Canadian fiction.  I set it up in 1994 with my late friend Mordecai Richler to honour my wife Doris, who was a great lady and a prominent woman of letters, and to support Canadian fiction.  In 2005, Scotiabank became a partner and it is called the Scotiabank Giller Prize.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11609             My direct association with CTVglobemedia started in the summer of 2005.  The CBC, which had previously televised the Giller, had a strike and was in turmoil regarding their program planning.  I therefore called Ivan Fecan and asked if he could help, and here I quote him.  He said "Jack, I understand that the Canadian publishing industry is in trouble and I would like to be part of the solution."

LISTNUM 1 \l 11610             He offered the Giller Foundation a five‑year contract and told me to speak to Susanne Boyce about making it happen.  And she did.  CTV put their full promotional communication and programming resources behind the Giller Prize.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11611             The first year CTV aired the show was in 2005, and they did that in record time.  It was aired live on CTV Newsnet and later on the main network.  It was cross‑promoted on TALK TV and a number of other CTV services and the result in terms of viewership was outstanding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11612             But in 2006 CTV really pulled out all the stops.  They took a major risk and broadcast the Giller live in prime time on CTV main channel.  I repeat, prime time from 9:00 to 10:00.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11613             The show reached an unprecedented television audience of 550,000 people, an astounding figure for a literary award shall and an unprecedented breakthrough for Canadian literature and its authors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11614             In addition, CTV streamed a live feed of the show over CTV broadband network, making it the first broadcaster in Canada to deliver a Canadian network awards program live on broadband.  CTV promoted it daily on all its services, produced it and showcased it to the hilt.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11615             Just as Ivan Fecan and Susanne Boyce had promised, CTV did a sensational job.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11616             That broadcast and the promotion that preceded it was a major breakthrough for Canadian literature.  Because of CTV's strong programming and promotion which brought the Giller Prize such a great audience, book sales exploded for the Giller's nominees.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11617             Last year's winner was a doctor named Vincent Lam who saw his book "Bloodletting and Miraculous Cures" sail to the top of Canadian bookseller list and it sold in excess of 200,000 copies, a first in Canadian book sales.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11618             The other short‑listed authors also benefited because they enjoyed a major spike in their sales.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11619             I tell you this story not just to laud what CTV has done for Canadian literature, Canadian authors and the Canadian publishing industry, but to point to CTV's commitment to Canadian culture.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11620             CTV understands the importance of flagship events like the Giller Prize and understands what their partnership can do for Canadian authors.  Because of this commitment, I am confident they will be great owners for CHUM, which itself plays an important role in showcasing Canadian talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11621             I think CHUM will flourish under CTV's leadership and I therefore ask the Commission to support CTV's application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11622             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11623             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11624             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11625             We will continue with the presentation of Jully Black.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11626             Thank you.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 11627             MS BLACK:  Good morning, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Commission.  I would like to thank you personally for the opportunity to share my views on why I support the transfer of the ownership and for giving me the opportunity to share my perspective.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11628             My name is Jully Black.  I am a singer, I am a songwriter, but first of all I am the youngest of nine children born to an immigrant mother who came to this country with just a dream ‑‑ just a dream.  As a songwriter in this country I feel that we need to protect our borders and nurture and take care of our wealth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11629             Over the course of my career I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to tour Canada many, many times, not only on my own but in support of the Black Eyed Peas, who we all know are a huge American band.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11630             As an artist, I can tell you that this transaction means more than a lot to the music community in Canada.  The significant benefit dollars that will result from this transaction will enable more artists like me ‑‑ and I say "like me" ‑‑ so you know that I am 29 years old and I am carving out a road and walking on the road at the same time.  I am willing to take a blow to be a pioneer, to diversify the face of Canadian music.  Without the benefit dollars, this is not possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11631             The development of my career has greatly been helped by FACTOR and Radio Starmaker Fund and, like just about every emerging artist in Canada, I have had to rely on these funds in order to pay for the high cost of recording, touring, production, making music videos, et cetera.  If this funding did not exist, I don't know many Canadian artists or record companies that would be able to break artists and build the profile necessary to have a successful career in this country and abroad.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11632             FACTOR and Starmaker will see their budgets increased greatly thanks to the benefit packages proposed by CTV.  Without this benefit money, many, many voices would not be heard and, to be quite honest, we run the risk of our industry becoming extinct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11633             A career in music is harder now than ever before, being illegal downloading, theft of my music personally.  I was stolen from 2.5 million times by the sake of illegal downloading and many, many others.  Illegal downloading and theft of my music, and many others, continues unabated, while the cost of recording and touring increase.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11634             There is a growing amount of competition out there, not just from other artists, but also from other entertainment sources and we are all vying for the listener's attention and dollars.  If we as Canadian musicians did not have FACTOR and Starmaker, we would easily drown in the torrent of American and foreign content that floods across the borders.  Again, we need to protect our borders.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11635             I have seen firsthand how the power of airplay on radio and television, supported by promotion and entertainment news coverage, can boost an artist's profile.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11636             At this very moment I would like to take a moment to acknowledge the profile.  My profile is bigger than my record sales, and that's okay, because CTV had vision.  They picked this little girl from Jane and Finch and said "You have talent.  You don't have a journalist degree, you don't have any degree as first television is concerned, but you have talent.  We trust you."

LISTNUM 1 \l 11637             And Susanne Boyce, my hero, gave me a chance.  She gave me a chance.  CHUM‑FM was an early believer in Jully Black.  R&B ‑‑ I am a rhythm and blues singer, which is in its infancy.  There is no way that at 29 years old I am the pioneer of an industry in this country that has been around for eons, right, but CHUM‑FM ‑‑ and right now I would like to shout out Rob Farina.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11638             Rob Farina played a song that I wrote for my mother called "I Travelled", because she came to this country and worked for $1.68 an hour and one by one by one brought her children from Jamaica, so I could dream in 1977.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11639             In 2004 the release of my own CD, "This Is Me" ‑‑ 2005, I'm sorry ‑‑ came out with Universal Music Canada, sake of the support of CHUM‑FM.  We need the resources.  We need to feed the people.  This is a business, right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11640             Thanks to the outlets such as eTalk Daily and CHUM radio stations, MuchMusic, MuchMoreMusic, City News and Star, I now have a solid foundation and a high enough profile to build my career, both home and abroad.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11641             When I reflect back to the 13 years as a professional singer and songwriter, and performer, I am most proud of gaining national recognition in my very own country, because I don't feel that we should be exiled.  We need to build our army here and be able to compete globally as Canadian musicians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11642             We have the strongest and biggest exports, whether you are a singer/songwriter, comedian, screenwriter, you name it.  We have David Foster, we have Shania, we have Celine, but they left in order to come back and then their stock was raised.  We need to stop that.  We need to eliminate that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11643             Music has the ability to reach beyond borders and boundaries.  It is the only language that every race, culture, religion ‑‑ we all speak music and we need to understand that it's an art form that is that the risk, again, of becoming extinct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11644             I think the joining of these two complementary companies, television and music ‑‑ a lot of times they don't understand each other, but it is a husband‑and‑wife scenario.  We could build a family.  Husbands don't understand wives all the time, we know that.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11645             MS BLACK:  Okay?  But it's a marriage and I think that it is a match made in heaven.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11646             CTV has vision.  It doesn't matter what these budgets are saying.  You could have millions and millions of dollars, but if you don't know what to do with it, it doesn't really matter.  And CTV and CHUM has vision and that is what we also need to acknowledge.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11647             CTV is making a positive contribution to Canadians and for this reason I, Jully Black, support this transaction.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11648             I would like to thank you, the Commission, for granting me your time to share my personal journey and I thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11649             I welcome any questions that you have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11650             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11651             THE SECRETARY:  We will continue with the presentation of Mr. Randy Lennox of Universal Music.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 11652             MR. LENNOX:  To begin, I just want to echo and congratulate you, Jully, for great words there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11653             MS BLACK:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11654             MR. LENNOX:  Fantastic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11655             Good morning, Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, and thank you for the opportunity to appear today in support of the application by CTVglobemedia to acquire CHUM also.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11656             My name is Randy Lennox and I am Canadian born and raised.  I have worked my entire adult life in the Canadian artist industry in a variety of different positions, and today I am the CEO of Universal Music here in Canada.  We are Canada's leading record company releasing over 1,000 CDs both digitally and physically per year, representing over 35 Canadian‑owned labels and 140 Canadian artists.  These artists include such diverse artists as Paul Anka, Bruce Coburn, Shania Twain, Diana Krall, Lorena McKinnon, and Nelly Furtado.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11657             I am also the Vice‑Chairman of Canada's Walk of Fame which airs in partnership with CTV.  I am on the Executive Board of the Canadian Association of Recording Arts and Sciences which runs the Juno Awards each and every year in partnership with CTV, and I am also on the Advisory Board of MusicCan, a charity program that puts musical instruments in much‑needed school programs across Canada; again, a charity that CTV is very much involved with.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11658             However, I am here first and foremost as the CEO of Universal Music Canada and we wholeheartedly support this application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11659             It is my firsthand experience over a period of several years that CTV shares our passion and commitment for Canadian artists and for music in general.  Their focus on artist development, both spiritually and financially illuminate this point, whether it's our industry's partnership on those Juno awards which helps raise industry sales 40 percent each and every week after it airs each year; the Canadian Idol phenomenon which finds and develops brand new Canadian superstars or their everyday music commitment of media time through eTalk Daily.  It is clear to me that music, particularly Canadian music, is CTV's priority.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11660             And like Universal Music, CTV recognizes that we compete every day with American content given our proximity to the United States. Their idea to take the Juno Awards not only nationwide but worldwide shows a like‑minded ambition with the music industry to raise our Canadian artists' awareness not only here at home but around the world through their media efforts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11661             And CTVglobemedia's leadership and track record to music makes them the ideal custodian for CHUM; CHUM who by the way is another culture whose stations and brands are very focused in the music space and partnership with our industry.  Incredible brands such as MuchMusic, the NewMusic, have seen Canadian artists nurtured and celebrated for decades now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11662             The development of VideoFACT, a funding organization invented and managed by the CHUM group to help Canadian artists make and develop videos here at home.  And this has helped us at home and developed, as Jully said, artists for the world.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11663             So I am heartened by CTV's commitment to maintain the unique culture that the CHUM television and radio properties represent.  On the radio side we are also pleased as an industry to see that CTV and CHUM are both committed to the continuing dialogue towards the establishment of industry benchmarks for airplay and promotion of our new and emerging artists.  We look forward to continuing work with CTV and CHUM towards this common objective.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11664             Out of necessity, the music industry in Canada and around the world has seen much consolidation.  In fact, Universal Canada is the product of two merged organizations ourselves and in the seven years since we began as one merged company our Canadian artists' commitment has helped us gain an additional 25 percent market share in growth during difficult times.  This has kept us at a market leadership position while always being focused on offering a wide array and variety of choices for the Canadian music‑buying public.  We spend our time on diverse artist development and Canadians benefit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11665             So I believe that both CTV and CHUM will continue to act in the spirit of this artist development because Universal is proof that it is not size that matters in business as much as what you do with that size.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11666             CTV's priority and emphasis and the commitment to maintain CHUM's culture will benefit Canadians and, again, we support wholeheartedly this merger of two great Canadian companies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11667             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Lennox.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11668             We will continue with the presentation of Mr. Farley Flex from the Plasma Management & Productions Inc.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 11669             MR. FLEX:  Good morning, and thank you, Chairman and Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11670             I appreciate the opportunity to appear here today.  I am here to speak in support of the application of CTVglobemedia to acquire CHUM Limited.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11671             My name, as mentioned, is Farley Flex and I am a Canadian music business entrepreneur.  For the past 20 years I have built a multifaceted career in the Canadian music industry as a producer, manager, radio station music director, DJ, entrepreneur and probably my most‑known role as a judge on Canadian Idol.  But I am here today first and foremost as an artist manager working primarily in the urban music industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11672             I support this application for the following three reasons:

LISTNUM 1 \l 11673             CTV is the ideal candidate to preserve the unique contributions and nature of the CHUM services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11674             Secondly, this transaction will increase the diversity of choice to Canadians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11675             And, lastly, the $42 million in benefits that will flow to the Canadian music industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11676             Allow me to elaborate.  I believe CTV is an ideal candidate to preserve the unique contributions and nature of the CHUM services.  Each of these companies has played a distinct role in fostering Canadian music talent and I believe that this will continue under the new ownership structure.  CTV have shown themselves to be true champions of Canadian culture and talent.  Their track record with Corner Gas, Canadian Idol, the Junos and eTalk Daily is impressive to say the least.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11677             CTV's commitment, not just to make Canadian programming but to make successful widely‑viewed Canadian programming is unquestionable and has been proven over and over again.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11678             I also believe in the importance of having a 100 percent‑owned Canadian broadcasting company nurturing those CHUM stations.  CTV realizes that it takes special care, patience and financial investment to create Canadian hits and Canadian stars.  This builds success not just for CTV but for the artists in those shows.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11679             A strong company with substantial financial resources is also important in the fight to keep Canadian voices heard above the increasing noise of foreign and unregulated sources coming into Canada.  Those financial resources are also necessary when it comes to building Canadian artists up to a level where they can thrive on the global stage, something that is important for the artists' artistic and financial development and to bring our Canadian culture to the rest of the world.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11680             I also support this application because I believe it will increase the diversity of voices in the broadcasting system.  We saw this happen in radio when the Commission changed its policy to allow an operator to own two FM and two AM stations in each market.  The Commission understood that this was no threat to the amount of choice available to listeners but a means to ensure more choice.  This has been proven in market after market.  In Vancouver, for example, CHUM owns four stations each with a distinct format and unique target audience.  It is simply good business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11681             Lastly, I would like to speak about the proposed benefits package.  CTVglobemedia support for FACTOR and Starmaker is vital to the health of the music industry.  I welcome and applaud the $42 million in additional funding and music‑related projects.  It will make a tangible positive difference to the Canadian music industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11682             Thank you and I am ready to take any questions you might have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11683             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Thank you for all your testimonials.  You obviously believe very strongly in CTV and what it can do for CHUM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11684             Now, I assume you were yesterday in the audience or else you read the papers, so you know that this is a problematic application for us because it doesn't really fit within our rules and we made that perfectly clear yesterday.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11685             Mr. Fecan made it quite clear that Citytv will be sold.  It is a very valuable item.  If he doesn't buy it or we don't allow him to buy it, somebody else will buy it.  So really, the key question for us and you have sort of ‑‑ not really addressed and I would like to put a point to it, what would be the best difference if Rogers, let's say for argument, bought City rather than CTV?  You all made the case for strong Canadian artists, funding, industry, champion somebody who pushes you, et cetera, but I am not ‑‑ I would like to see your views as to why this champion whom you obviously think very highly of, will be superior to whomever other players there may be in the Canadian industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11686             I am just mentioning Rogers as a name that comes to mind because they are buying the A‑Channel, but if you could address that to us that would be very useful.  So whoever wants to take it on?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11687             MR. FLEX:  I will begin with that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11688             You know, I think that when I can look at CTV acquiring CHUM and maintaining the unique culture of CHUM versus anyone else, two things come to mind, experience and leadership.  You know, in dealing with CTV everyday they are completely invested spiritually and financially in the space.  They understand it better than anyone, and the leadership of the organization as has been suggested this morning, the competency and vision is second to none.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11689             So if you were to line up four or five companies that could all have the wherewithal to buy CHUM, CTV would still come out ahead just because they will maximize value for the Canadian consumer and they will keep their word.  And I was here yesterday and heard every word that was said.  They will keep their word as to what they will do in terms of the zero overlap and the cultural sovereignty of both of these networks of radio and television stations.  So I think that's a very important thing for them to sustain and they will do it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11690             And I am not suggesting Rogers wouldn't but I am saying that CTV is very qualified to do so because they have lived in this space all of their lives with respect to these other multimedia companies who have not.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11691             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11692             Ms Black.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11693             MS BLACK:  Personally, you are not going to go to a dentist that has no teeth, you know.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11694             MS BLACK:  So let's be honest, right?  And I think ‑‑ you see, I just ‑‑ let's just be real.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11695             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You want to come and sit up here, I think.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11696             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  We are ready for ‑‑ I can't match that.  I am ready to retire now, you know.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11697             MS BLACK:  But on a serious note, I mean, CTV has number one, vision; number two, the cool factor.  Yesterday, I sat here and I listened to people speak about why not we be ‑‑ why don't we be safe and appeal to the older audience, the buying audience?  Well, they are going to die, okay.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11698             MS BLACK:  And the reality is that the younger generation ‑‑ that CTV is setting up without even realizing an apprentice system.  They are passing the baton onto the next generation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11699             And no disrespect to Rogers or anybody else, but if they were to get ‑‑ if they were to acquire CHUM they are going to have to hire everybody from CTV anyway.  So you know it's like Tommy Hilfiger doesn't make his own clothes.  He hires the people to do it.  CTV knows what they are doing.  They have teeth in their mouth.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11700             MS BLACK:  That's the reality.  So you can't beat experience and a company that is willing to make ‑‑ to take a high risk situation and deal with the circumstance.  They are okay with whatever the outcome is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11701             Change is growth.  That's why CTV should acquire CHUM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11702             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11703             MR. FLEX:  My good friend Jully Black.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11704             MR. FLEX:  I have proposed to this woman about 40 times, just so you guys know.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11705             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Even after you heard her views on husbands and wives you still proposed?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11706             MR. FLEX:  Even ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11707             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You are a brave man.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11708             MR. FLEX:  Even after that, even after that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11709             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes, you keep lifting those weights.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11710             MR. FLEX:  That's the whole idea.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11711             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  You are going to need it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11712             MR. FLEX:  That's the whole idea.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11713             MS BLACK:  Or his chequebook.  He could lift the chequebook.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11714             MR. FLEX:  What I wanted to emphasize, and I mentioned it actually on my way here this morning is that, you know, growing up as a black person in this country, CHUM has been the flagship station in terms of ethnic diversity.  When you grow up in the city of Toronto and there is no question that Citytv was the first media entity to truly reflect the diversity of Toronto and we all know how great the diversity of Toronto is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11715             And to be enhanced by the "deep pockets" of CTV, I think, is an important point as well because with the spirit of the CHUM group being held intact and the vision that they have had over the years in terms of representing the cultures and the great diversity and all of the different aspects of colour that they show on that TV screen, I think it is really important to emphasize that having an enhanced opportunity to do that will just enhance what it already is, which is a respectful and I guess you could say inclusive and fully open door system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11716             Like my career was built an opportunity for an artist that I managed named Maestro Fresh Wes to walk into Electric Circus and get a record deal walking out the door on Queen Street.  That's literally what happened, right, and my opportunity now as a judge on Canadian Idol.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11717             I do a tremendous amount of community work and for me to go into communities, aboriginal, you name it, all the marginalized communities across this country and have young people be willing to listen to what I have to say because they think that someone special is coming to see them, right, and then I can impart on them the other aspects of my life and the work that I do to uplift them; these are all opportunities that are enhanced indirectly and directly through my association with both entities.  So you know it's a no brainer for me in so many respects because I see it happen every single day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11718             I received a phenomenal award on Saturday evening for an organization called "The Black Business and Professional Association" and the award was in arts, media and entertainment and it was for community service and my professional work, and all of that is built on the foundation of an opportunity that began with CHUM, right, and then now is flourishing with CTV.  So that is why I am here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11719             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11720             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Rabinovitch.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11721             MR. RABINOVITCH:  Yesterday, as I was listening I heard a lot of discussion about expectation and commitment and I think that the five first intervenors here have demonstrated, I think very clearly, that forget commitment, forget expectation; CTV has demonstrated support and endorsement of Canadian artists and literature and in music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11722             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I was fascinated by your little story about the Giller prize.  I mean, I would have thought that this was something that you know was ready‑made for CBC and, yet, you had to go to CTV to get the exposure.  What is the difference in attitude between CBC and CTV here that led to ‑‑ how would you analyse it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11723             MR. RABINOVITCH:  I think that they were in turmoil, as I said.  The strike sort of fouled up their program planning and they didn't know exactly what to do, and the strange part about it is that the young group that Susanne Boyce put together had many booklovers in it, and when you see kids between the ages of 18 and 25 reading books and passionate about books it's quite a wonderful experience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11724             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Go ahead.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11725             MS COUTURE:  Oh, just lastly I would like to say that CTV gets it.  They understand the audience, they understand story.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11726             I mean, for a writer the worst thing to do is to write a script and put so much of yourself into it and actually come up with what you think is a very compelling script that will attract audiences and then the execution of it and the promotion of it falls so far short that your efforts are ‑‑ you know, they vanish and the audience isn't there.  And Jully said it, you know, it doesn't how much money is in the budget.  It's how you use that money and who is making it happen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11727             I think that my experience with CTV, one of the reasons I have remained in Canada even though I continue to work in the U.S., is because they get it.  They understand the audience.  They promote things beautifully and they are not just doing Canadian programming because they have to.  They actually treat it as, you know, a great value for the audience.  I just can't imagine who else would do a better job.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11728             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11729             Commissioners, any questions?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11730             Helen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11731             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Just one question, just one question for the writers, Ms Couture and Mr. Rabinovitch.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11732             Now, I don't know whether you had a chance to take a look at the intervention of Illusions Entertainment Corporation where they criticize the writers‑only initiative and they said that ‑‑ this is what they said:

"CTV's writers‑only development program undermines the role of the independent producers and the creative process and it may be a more accurate statement of how CTV views the producer's role when they state writers can fully realize their creative vision before the script is assigned to an independent producer."  (As read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 11733             Do you care to comment?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11734             MR. RABINOVITCH:  I would have to read it.  I have no comment at this moment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11735             MS COUTURE:  I would like to comment.  I mean, I am both a writer and a producer so I am sort of in an amusing position of either supporting myself or not supporting the other side of myself.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11736             I think that it's a fear and a concern that I really think is a problem for certain producers who perhaps don't work as much with writers as they would like because there is no problem with the producer getting a script that is already written.  In fact, as a producer I would welcome that because you see the intentions of the writer.  It's all there.  And I think that to get a script from a writer means that you don't have to do all of the development work that a producer needs to do to raise the money to work with the writer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11737             So I think that it's actually the opposite, I would say, for the independent producers.  They should welcome getting specs ‑‑ what we call spec scripts that have been developed by CTV.  In fact, CTV has done that with my company and it was a terrific experience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11738             On the other hand, I think for writers the fact that they have the opportunity to write for themselves before all of the other voices come in to say not this, not that, that's what writers in Canada particularly support.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11739             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Great, thank you.  So you don't necessarily agree with their conclusion that that's ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11740             MS COUTURE:  I think they are looking at it negatively when they should look at it positively, and I would like to talk to each and everyone of them to explain that to them.  So they can call me at home.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11741             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11742             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Rita, do you have any questions?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11743             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Further to that, Ms Couture, you have had projects that were funded out of the BCE‑CTV benefits?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11744             MS COUTURE:  Yes, I have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11745             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And yesterday they told us that one of the huge advantages of a self‑administered fund, as they have proposed, is that it is one stop shopping.  In other words, the producer doesn't have to go look for additional funding, that they can go to this pool of money and it's all there for them.  Was that your experience?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11746             MS COUTURE:  I think the big advantage with it already being at CTV is that you are in the door.  The biggest thing is to get a broadcaster to be excited by the project, to be in at the birth of the project and then they have a vested interest in following it through to the end.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11747             So I think to have it be in an outside funded group and to then go to CTV, I think that is not the advantage that writers are looking for, and I don't think producers have that advantage if it's from an outside group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11748             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11749             Mr. Lennox, just one more question for you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11750             In your written submission you said that you supported the CRIA submission, especially as it related to new and emerging artists and you did just say that you were here yesterday.  I'm just wondering if you could comment on the initiative undertaken by the CHUM Radio Station Group to support and promote new and emerging artists and if that is in keeping with your support of the CRIA submission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11751             MR. LENNOX:  Yes.  I think from the moment that submission was written to this moment things have evolved in an extremely positive fashion.  I think there has been additional growing empathy between CHUM and the music industry in terms of understanding that our artists' recording costs have exponentially increased, so therefore our reliance and need of true partnership at the early stage of the artist development is much more illuminated than it was even 6 or 12 months ago.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11752             So in those ensuing weeks that has evolved, and even know we don't have a perfect template yet as to how that will be framed in terms of criteria, the great news is that the will is there.  The will is there from CTV, CHUM and the music industry to now, you know, build a framework for a new and developing artist program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11753             So I feel very good about it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11754             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11755             Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11756             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Any other questions?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11757             Thank you very much, then.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11758             We will take a five‑minute break while the next panel sets itself up.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 0942 / Suspension à 0942

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 0951 / Reprise à 0951

LISTNUM 1 \l 11759             MR. WEINSTEIN:  It's a change of order?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11760             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Change of order, I understand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11761             THE SECRETARY:  Then Mr. ‑‑ please introduce yourself before you ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11762             MR. WEINSTEIN:  Okay.  Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, my name is Larry Weinstein.  I'm a producer, director, and founding partner of Rhombus Media, a small independent Toronto‑based film and television production company that has largely specialized in high‑end performing arts programming since 1979.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11763             Thank you for allowing me to support the CTVglobemedia's application to acquire CHUM Limited, and in turn the performing arts specialty channel Bravo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11764             Canada has long been at the forefront in the creation of performing arts, documentaries, and performance specials.  We, our company, and a number of other producers across Canada have won more awards in this genera then those of any other country.  Rhombus itself has earned a reputation for high‑quality programming that has attracted new audiences in the arts in Canada and abroad.  It's been our mainstay, it's been our passion, and it's allowed us to enjoy a huge international reputation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11765             But making these types of programs has become increasingly difficult over the last few years.  Now more than ever we need strong Canadian champions or cultural defenders that have the financial strength and creative vision to invest in Canadian culture.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11766             With its strong financial pledges and commitment to Bravo, it is clear that CTVglobemedia is perfectly positioned to be such a champion.  Their commitment of $6,000,000 towards performing arts documentaries on top of existing budget levels would be a great boom to Canada's culture.  With this pledge, and a number of others outlined in their benefit package, I believe that CTVglobemedia is the perfect group to nurture and support Bravo, Canada's premier arts channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11767             Rhombus has produced many shows with Bravo and with Bravo Fact from the channel's very inception.  We greatly benefited from their heyday in the mid to late '90s, 2000, 2001 when they were able to invest substantial licence fees into what were to become many of our most acclaimed programs awarded in broadcast throughout the world.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11768             Your approval of this proposed transfer of ownership, will allow Bravo not only to return to those days, the heydays, but likely to thrive more than ever.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11769             CTVglobemedia has shown its expertise and commitment in building Canadian programming of other genres in the past, enhancing Canadian production, and bringing large audiences to the work of filmmakers and TV producers.  Their investment in CHUM and Bravo will encourage our company and others to continue to work in Canada, and have the opportunity to create some of the best cultural programming in the world.  In ‑‑ which in turn will have great resonance with all Canadian cultural institutions ‑‑ performing arts institutions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11770             In the past Bravo often came to the rescue of many of the most important projects when other broadcasters faltered.  If CTVglobemedia is given the opportunity to fall through on its pledges, it will infuse Bravo with the support it needs to continue to play this pivotal role.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11771             The development and creation of the performing documentary is under threat as never before in television broadcasting history.  Funding for performing arts on television in both the international and national scene is diminishing, and in some cases has completely been disappearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11772             The recent termination of CBC's flagship program ‑‑ arts program, Opening Night, was a devastating indication of what these shows are up against, and what terribly difficult decisions broadcasters have had to make.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11773             We need national broadcasters to support and promote arts programming so that it can reach a substantial audience, an audience that does have an appetite for these programs.  Bravo can fulfill such a role, and with CTV as its new owner we believe that it can also thrive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11774             This will not benefit only art's program producers but innumerable talents across Canada; musicians, actors, designers, choreographers, dancers, composers, writers, and directors.  They'll all be greatly affected.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11775             In this way I believe CTVglobemedia in support of Bravo will be regarded a visionary ‑‑ that they have already committed to preserving and nurturing Bravo, and thus recognizing an important contribution made by this channel and its affiliated independent producers is highly commendable and can't be underestimated.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11776             With diminishing funding over the past few years Rhombus and others have had to look in other directions turning to non‑arts related productions.  We sincerely want to reverse that trend.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11777             We are producers with a passion for Canada and for the arts, and a passion for the creation of the cultural Canadian legacy that is seen here and also exported around the world.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11778             If you approve this transaction you will be protecting and nurturing not only the integrity of Bravo, but the entire Canadian performing arts community at large, and the invaluable contribution that they make to defining the Canadian nation ‑‑ sorry, the identity of our nation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11779             I can't think of a more worthwhile and admirable endeavor.  Thanks for your time, and I'd be happy to answer any questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11780             THE SECRETARY:  We will proceed with Mr. John LaRose of the Aboriginal Peoples Television Network Incorporated.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11781             Mr. LaRose.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11782             MR. LAROSE:  Mr. Chair, Commissioners, I am Jean LaRose, an Abenaki citizen of the Odanak First Nation in what is now called Quebec.  I am also the Chief Executive Officer of Aboriginal Peoples Television Network Incorporated.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11783             I am pleased to appear today on behalf of APTN in support of CTVglobemedia's application to acquire CHUM Limited.  At APTN, we believe that this application will have a direct and immediate impact to increase the level of participation of First Nations, Inuit, and Métis Peoples in television broadcasting.  We believe that this application will improve the position of Aboriginal Peoples for a number of reasons.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11784             First, CTVglobemedia has committed to contribute $2.25 million to APTN over seven years to be used to fund dramatic movies and series with Aboriginal independent producers.  We should say that this commitment did not just materialize "out of thin air".  It came from CTVglobemedia's working collaboratively with APTN to identify the area of Aboriginal production that could most benefit from direct support.  It also derives from discussions I had with CTVglobemedia that we could, jointly, develop a dramatic series that would be attractive to both our audiences.  I applaud CTVglobemedia's recognition of this possibility.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11785             Drama programming is tremendously important for Aboriginal producers and for APTN.  Drama continues to be among the more popular forms of TV programming.  I reaches out to the largest audiences.  Once that audience is reached, drama helps to build bridges:  it increases understanding and empathy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11786             It is regrettable but until recently good dramas featuring Aboriginal talent was close to non‑existent.  I don't think I am saying anything controversial when I say that there is a significant lack of knowledge among the wider Canadian population about Aboriginal Peoples, about the challenges we face in Canadian society, and about the historic ‑‑ meaning very long‑standing, generation after generation ‑‑ nature of these challenges.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11787             I would suggest that there is a connection between how Aboriginal Peoples are portrayed on television ‑‑ whether they are portrayed at all, as a matter of fact ‑‑ and the level of knowledge about Aboriginal Peoples in Canadian society generally.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11788             You can't blame the media alone for the poor level of knowledge that exists, generally speaking, but the media is definitely part of the solution.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11789             Drama programming sits at the top of the programming hierarchy.  It is the most challenging and expensive to produce, and it builds the most sought‑after skills among those involved in the production.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11790             One of quite a few Aboriginal producers that intervened in this proceeding in support of CTVglobemedia, Big Soul Productions, described the situation very well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11791             Big Soul stated that Aboriginal producers need to take responsibility for keeping Aboriginal peoples in the industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11792             Allocating more funding, therefore, to support higher drama, budget drama productions by Aboriginal independent producers, which draw Aboriginal writers, directors, actors and behind the camera personnel will build expertise that will help Aboriginal talent in the industry in the years to come.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11793             Finally, APTN has identified high quality drama programming as a priority for our network, but it is something that we do not have the sufficient resources to produce in quantity on our own.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11794             We have to partner with others to get this kind of programming off the ground.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11795             We are tremendously encouraged by CTVglobemedia's positive response and clear commitment to help APTN to produce more of this important genre programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11796             The second way in which CTVglobemedia's benefits proposal will improve the position of Aboriginal peoples in broadcasting, is that CTVglobemedia has chosen to allocate its funding to drama production through APTN.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11797             In other words, while the funding will ultimately be used to support Aboriginal independent production, APTN will also benefit in that we will obtain broadcast rights to those productions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11798             We believe that this approach reflects an understanding on CTVglobemedia's part that APTN has to play a leading role in representing Aboriginal peoples in television, and in ensuring that Aboriginal peoples have the opportunity to tell their own stories from their own advantage point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11799             We believe that CTVglobemedia's allocation of funds directly to APTN shows that it views APTN as a partner to be supported in the broadcasting system.  A partner that is working towards mutually compatible goals.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11800             And it also validates the CRTC's vision of providing a place for Aboriginal peoples in the broadcasting sector when it licensed APTN in 1999.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11801             Today key place in the industry now recognize, support and actively contribute to further enhance and solidify the vision that Aboriginal peoples had, and that the CRTC shared.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11802             It is important, we believe, that Aboriginal peoples control the telling of their own stories.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11803             CTVglobemedia's other important benefits proposal for Aboriginal peoples in this transaction includes the allocation of 3 million over seven years to social benefits in support of traditionally under‑represented groups.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11804             Aboriginal peoples will not be the exclusive recipients of these dollars, but we expect that a significant portion would be spent on Aboriginal initiatives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11805             We noted in our written intervention that the Aboriginal media education fund would be well positioned to assist CTVglobemedia to direct funding to youth skills training, where it is needed most.  And we expect that IMF will follow up with CTVglobemedia to show how it can be of assistance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11806             Above and beyond the specific benefits CTVglobemedia has proposed, we think it is important to underline our support for this application has much more to do with our experiences with CTV since APTN first launched.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11807             We accept the argument that it is important for Canada to have large and healthy media companies that can face head on the challenges that the future can bring, and there are many.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11808             But, from our perspective, as a small stand‑alone service, it is just as important that these large companies support the smaller services that also have a direct role in fulfilling important broadcasting policy initiatives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11809             Otherwise, smaller services risk being left behind and policy objectives will not be met.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11810             Consistently over the years CTV has shown that it shares our understanding of APTN's role in the system, and CTV's role in supporting APTN.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11811             For example, the financial support offered to APTN as part of the Bell Globemedia benefits package allowed APTN to build seven news bureaus across Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11812             This led directly to the success that APTN National News has achieved in bringing news stories of direct relevance to Aboriginal peoples from across the country to the airwaves everyday.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11813             Without CTV's support, it is doubtful that APTN National News would be as vital a source of information as it is today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11814             We are just as pleased to report that CTV's commitment to APTN did not stop with the benefits funds.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11815             We found that CTV was prepared to work with APTN to draw on APTN's resources in the field to enhance CTV's own news capabilities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11816             This has led to increased opportunities for our news personnel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11817             CTV's commitment to APTN in this area, we need to emphasize, is continuing beyond the lifetime of those previous benefits commitments.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11818             We have just signed a five‑year agreement between APTN and CTV News, which sets out the framework for continued cooperation in news and current affairs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11819             Among other things, the agreement commits us to share news materials with each other, and provides APTN with access to CTV's substantial archives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11820             Obviously having CTV's resources available to us makes a huge differences for our news capabilities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11821             It is a two‑way street, though, and CTV News will also benefit from this arrangement, as it has in the past.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11822             In conclusion, we believe that CTVglobemedia has proposed tangible benefits that will provide direct support to Aboriginal peoples in broadcasting, and that this application will allow CTVglobemedia to build on its past support for Aboriginal initiatives.  For these reasons, we support this application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11823             Finally, the Aboriginal production community has supported this initiative to a level unheard of before.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11824             We have provided 75 letters of support to the CRTC in favour of this proposal, and you have received these.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11825             Interestingly enough, as an aside, that's as many letters of support as they provided for our own license renewal, which has left me somewhat ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

‑‑ curious as to where they actually stand, but that's another issue altogether.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11826             I suggest to you that the entire community has recognized the importance of the proposed benefits package, both for APTN, as well as for their own stories in finding new and innovative outlets for their stories.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11827             I thank the Commission for this opportunity, and I will answer any questions that you wish to ask of me.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11828             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11829             We'll proceed with the next presentation, Mr. Brent Butt and Virginia Thompson of Corner Gas.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 11830             MR. BUTT:  Good morning, Mr. Chairman and the Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11831             My name is Brent Butt, and I am the creator, head writer, principal actor and an executive producer of the Canadian TV series Corner Gas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11832             I'd like to thank you for this opportunity to speak at this hearing, because I want to express my full and enthusiastic support for CHUM Limited's transfer of ownership to CTVglobemedia.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11833             Also joining me is my co‑producer, Virginia Thompson.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11834             I've been a stand‑up comedian for almost 20 years now.  And the first 15 of those years could be fairly described as eking a meager existence, while doggedly pursuing a crazy dream.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11835             Actually more accurately described as barely eking a meager existence ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

‑‑‑ and often failing to eke out what could reasonably called an existence.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11836             But that's the life of an artist and a performer.  You do it because you have to, and you hope that somewhere down the line you find the way to pay the bills.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11837             But I always knew that I wanted to step things up at some point to work in television.  I love television.  I seriously considered humanities greatest achievement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11838             I know that sounds like I'm trying to be funny, but I'm not.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11839             I won't bore you with my arguments as to why I consider television to be greater than penicillin or man flight, but I do.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11840             Working in television comedy was always my goal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11841             I often spoke to others about various ideas that I had for sitcoms, but the discussions would always end with the person I was talking to telling me that a sitcom in Canada was impossible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11842             They would say, "Yeah, it's a funny idea.  Could be entertaining, but we can't make sitcoms in Canada."

LISTNUM 1 \l 11843             And I always wondered why.  And when I asked why, there was usually some vague talk about being in a small market and having to compete with Americans who just do it better.  And that never sat well with me.  I always thought do it better?  Have you ever seen an episode of She's the Sheriff?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11844             They don't automatically ‑‑ they don't automatically do it better.  We should be doing our own shows.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11845             Over the years I had a few opportunities to work in television, but those opportunities were always short‑lived.  I can't definitively say why those opportunities didn't pan out, but I have some theories.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11846             From the start, I was paired up with a producer I didn't know, with a writer or two that I didn't know and that didn't know me.  And even once I was paired up with a director who told me he had never seen an episode of the Tonight Show.  He had, however, shot several figure skating specials and so was therefore apparently the right guy to shot the comedy I was working on.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11847             I don't mean to sound ungrateful for those opportunities, I just mean to illustrate the frustrations that come from having accountants talking to me about jokes in the script.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11848             I once had an accountant say these words to me, seriously I'm quoting these words in regard to a show I was working on:  "A chicken suit would be funnier."

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11849             I said, "Do you mean it would be less expensive?"  He said, "No, I really think that it would be funnier.  But, yes, it would be less expensive ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

‑‑ there's a chicken suit in the wardrobe warehouse."

LISTNUM 1 \l 11850             At any rate, those shows either never saw the light of day or never lasted, and I always found myself back touring the nightclubs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11851             But Corner Gas was a very different scenario.  The executives at CTV suggested that I start interviewing production partners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11852             They didn't assign me a producer, they wanted me to find a producer that I felt comfortable with, who I felt understood the project and my sense of humour.  And then they asked me who do you think should write the show with you.  What a wonderful and refreshing question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11853             In short, what I'm trying to say here is that at all times throughout the creation of Corner Gas, and through its multiple seasons, I've been allowed to focus my energies in the directions where I can actually have some impact.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11854             So I don't know how much more expensive a duck suit is than a chicken suit.  I even have a hard time verbalizing why it might be funnier in a given situation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11855             I just know that it's one of those intangibles that you have to feel, and it's why creative people should be allowed to create.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11856             But the scripting and the jokes and the acting are only the most visible of the many reasons why Corner Gas is watched by more Canadians than any other sitcom, which it is.  It's the most watched comedy, Canadian or American.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11857             When was the last time that the top‑rated sitcom in Canada was Canadian?  I was trying to think, I don't think it's ever happened.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11858             And a huge part of that success is due to the support that we received from the BCE CTV benefits.  It made a huge difference getting the vast majority of our production financing from one place, and the one‑stop shopping financing model.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11859             As you know, this kind of funding model and support is highly unusual in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11860             I strongly endorse the approach the CTVglobemedia is taking with the CTV CHUM benefits, because it will breed success.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11861             And when I say success, I'm not talking about whether or not the shows will turn a profit.  I just don't know a lot about those things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11862             Me talking about the bottom line would just be the reverse of the duck suit thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11863             When I say success, I'm talking about Canadians from coast to coast, lots of them, sitting down at a specific time of the week to watch a specific show, a specific Canadian show.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11864             The CTV CHUM benefits is set up to give creative people a chance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11865             I know a ton of very talented writers and actors and comedians and directors and young producers who can't break into the business because they just don't know how to raise the necessary funding from the various agencies that support the arts.  It's just not an easy process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11866             So these creative people end up missing the boat because they don't know how to do the paperwork, or simply scrapping their ideas because they can't alter their vision to suit the varying demands of the separate funding agencies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11867             The CTV CHUM benefits will allow those people an opportunity to better realize their vision, because they can spend time and energy writing, and casting, and story boarding, and rewriting, and designing sets, and doing all those other intangible things that don't show up on a balance sheet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11868             I'd like to sum up by correcting a misconception about Corner Gas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11869             There are some who think that, for whatever reason, I approached other broadcasters with the idea for Corner Gas, and that they turned it down, thereby missing out on this huge success story.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11870             It makes for a good urban legend, I guess, but it's just not the case.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11871             I want to make it clear that CBC or Global or anyone else did not turn down Corner Gas.  I never approached them with the idea of Corner Gas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11872             And, in fact, I never actually approached CTV either.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11873             The truth is CTV came to me.  They sought me out as a creative person and they said, "Hey, do you have any ideas for a TV show?"  And that's when I started talking about this small gas station show that I had.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11874             My point is the executives of CTV and the Comedy Network were actively seeking out talent, and they still are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11875             I don't know if any of you have ever heard the name Shawn Proudlove.  Not many people have.  But for my money he's one of the most original and unique minds in the country, and he's never had a national forum for his talents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11876             So you can imagine how it warmed my hearts and bolstered my belief in Canadian show business to find out that the Comedy Network is giving Shawn Proudlove his own special.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11877             I can almost guarantee no one else in the country was going to give such a unique artist a shot.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11878             Corner Gas is about to start shooting its fifth successful season, with an average audience now of over one and a half million viewers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11879             It has been sold to more than 26 countries, including a sale to U.S. channel, which has over 70 million subscribers.  There's a companion book and merchandising and DVDs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11880             So, from my perspective, the BCE CTV benefits has accomplished exactly what they said they would, and then some.  And I have no doubt the CTV CHUM benefits will lead to the same type of success.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11881             As an artist, I was able to benefit from this system, and I don't want to see it taken away from the next generation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11882             I don't have anyone telling me that a Canadian sitcom is impossible any more.  What happens now is people say to me, "Hey, I've got a great idea for a sitcom."

LISTNUM 1 \l 11883             This is a good time.  It's finally a good time for artists in this business.  It's what me and my friends used to dream about.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11884             I had to create a production company to do business, and I've always been kind of crazily symbolic about things for whatever reason.  I wanted to give a name to my production company that meant something, and since working with CTV I called my production company Sparrow Media, because I no longer feel the need to fly south.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11885             Thank you for your time.  Virginia and I are happy to answer any questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11886             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11887             We'll proceed with the next presentation.  Mr. Steven Stohn and Linda Schuyler of Epitome Pictures.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 11888             MS SCHUYLER:  Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, thank you for the opportunity to present to you today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11889             My name, as you heard, is Linda Schuyler, and I own a company with Steven Stohn.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11890             I am the creator, and together we are the executive producers, of two awarding‑winning Canadian dramatic series, Degrassi:  The Next Generation, and Instant Star, both of which air on CTV in Canada, and are also seen in over 150 and 120 countries respectively around the world.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11891             We are immensely proud of the fact that young audiences internationally are watching these 10 out of 10 Canadian series.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11892             We're here today to talk in full support of CTVglobemedia's acquisition of CHUM Limited.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11893             Joining Steven and me today, we are pleased to have two cast members from our series, Stacie Mistysyn and Melissa McIntyre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11894             Stacie Mistysyn has been an actor with us since the earliest days of the kids of Degrassi Street, which is over 25 years ago.  Sorry to do that to you, Stacie.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11895             And she is still working with us today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11896             And Melissa is one of our stars on Degrassi:  The Next Generation, and has been for seven years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11897             Our relationship with CTV has given us the platform to build bigger audiences for high quality Canadian programming.  And we have no doubt that the proposed acquisition of CHUM will only add to this visionary's company's ability to provide even more opportunity to Canadian independent producers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11898             CTV's commitment to Canadian programming of the highest quality, particularly drama, is demonstrated through their incredible support for Degrassi and other shows made possible through the BCE CTV benefits program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11899             The CTV CHUM benefits that are proposed in this application are based on a similar model, and we can speak to the reason that this model is poised for success.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11900             MR. STOHN:  Our entertainment industry is fraught with many challenges, perhaps foremost among them being how to finance projects.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11901             I firmly believe that CTV's staunch support of Canadian programming, as well as the BCE CTV benefits have been at least part of the solution to this problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11902             The BCE CTV benefits package, and the series extension benefit in particular, was of enormous help in achieving Degrassi's success.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11903             The additional financing provided under this benefit was sufficient to extend the typical series order of 13 to a larger number of episodes, like 22 or 19, or in the case of this season, 24.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11904             And this made our series far more attractive to international buyers.  And that has been critical in telling our identifiably Canadian stories to the world.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11905             As an example, last year during our sixth season of Degrassi, we surpassed the 110 episode mark.  And that's a key number, as it permits broadcast each week day for 22 weeks without repeats.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11906             And that, in turn, opened the door to a successful syndication sale in the United States.  Expanding us from the digital channel that we now appear on, to daily over the air broadcasts in all of the major cities of the United States, and indeed over 90 percent of all U.S. communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11907             And that's in addition to broadcasts on super stations such as WGN in Chicago, WPIX in New York and KTLA in Los Angeles.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11908             So we strongly believe that the inclusion of a similar funding envelope in the CTV CHUM benefits package is extremely positive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11909             I'd also like to speak to the extraordinary support CTV has given us in the development of multi‑platform adjuncts to our series.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11910             CTV has been a financial creative and marketing supporter of the highly successful websites for both Degrassi and Instant Star, and an array of new media initiatives, such as webisodes, mobisodes, animated webisodes, graphic novels and soundtrack albums, and these, in turn, have propelled forward even further initiatives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11911             For example, just yesterday afternoon many of our cast members were in a Broadway theater in New York for an event hosted by Rosie O'Donnell and to be broadcast on the Internet via AOL.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11912             It was featuring stars from the cast of Degrassi, five of them, and five members from the cast of the hit Broadway musical Spring Awakening.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11913             They were together discussing teen issues and challenges in a town hall forum in front of a live teen audience, in addition to the huge audience expected via the Internet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11914             And, may I say, hearing the reports of that event, it wasn't just a teen audience, it was a screaming pandemonium of a teen audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11915             And this is not unexpected.  Susanne Boyce has been with us on some of our mall tours in the United States, which we've had to actually stop doing because thousands of fans come out to see, you know, two of our Degrassi stars at a mall in Woodbridge, New Jersey, and the police have had to be called in because ‑‑ no matter how much security we have it tends to get out of control.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11916             My fond dream is that one day the President of the United States will be one of those fans who was lined up in the mall in Woodbridge, New Jersey or in the Eugene O'Neil Theatre in Broadway and seeing our identifiably Canadian stories in action.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11917             MS SCHUYLER:  CTV support and promotion ‑‑ financial, creative, and promotional for both Degrassi and Instant Star have been tremendous.  CTV could not have been more encouraging and supportive of our desire to develop new writers, actors, and directors, which you've heard a lot about today is so important.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11918             Because we know that our future industry rests on what we do now to develop and encourage diverse young talent.  And unusually for Canada, both our series have had the benefit of creative and far‑reaching publicity and promotional campaigns.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11919             All of this together with these series being given prominence on CTV schedule has resulted in Degrassi and Instant Star, being the top two English language Canadian drama series on air today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11920             We support this application because we know from experience and from CTV's demonstrated success that the benefit models proposed will breed further success.  CTVglobemedia's track record of working in tandem with independent producers to develop and promote identifiably Canadian dramatic television series is unmatched.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11921             In this borderless media age where new technology has increased the competition for media companies worldwide, we should applaud a Canadian broadcaster who wants to meet the challenge of creating compelling stories that reflect Canadians to themselves.  Success deserves to be regarded and encouraged.  And we encourage you to approve this application.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11922             THE SECRETARY:  We will continue with Mr. Heyges, Bright Light Pictures Inc.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11923             Sorry, for the pronunciation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11924             MR. HEYGES:  It's okay.  It's Heyges.  Thank you.  It happens a lot.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11925             Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners.  Thank you for the opportunity to appear at this very important hearing in support of the CHUM Limited transfer of ownership to CTVglobemedia.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11926             My name is Steven Heyges.  And I'm a producer and principal of Bright Light pictures, a Vancouver based production company that develops finances and produces independent feature films and television projects for the domestic and international marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11927             To date we've produced over 30 feature films as well as multiple television series.  We are thrilled that CTVglobemedia has made a firm commitment to preserve Citytv's unique contribution to the broadcasting system, including their support of Canada feature films.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11928             In an increasingly competitive global environment TV licencing is an integral part of the financing structure for Canadian feature films.  Without it Canadian film creators would never be able to compete financing requirements and go on to exhibit our films both in Canada and all over the world.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11929             The ability to showcase Canadian programming domestically and on the international stage can only continue if we have strong industry partners with a broad reach.  And without Canadian broadcast partners so many excellent Canadian films would never be seen in many Canadian markets.  Theatrical releases can be short lived and free TV windows are often the key platforms through which these films reach Canadian audiences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11930             I believe that CTVglobemedia with their demonstrated history of investing in Canadian programming and building success is the right choice to take on CHUM assets, and become a much stronger voice for Canadian content and Canadian feature film.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11931             The winning combination of CHUM's experience in feature film and CTV's expertise in promotion and building audiences will be an immense benefit to our industry.  Right now we are telling Canadian stories, and have seen a huge talent pool in Canada, but increasingly we see this talent go south.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11932             If there are more production opportunities in Canada for and by Canadians, we can create opportunities for the best and brightest in Canada.  Our success has enabled us to nurture many emerging writers and directors and producers.  CTVglobemedia's commitment to maintaining CHUM's focus on supporting feature films is of critical importance to independent filmmakers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11933             CTV has shown itself to be passionate about building Canadian programming and audiences, and succeeded into doing so.  This is no small feat.  I believe that under CTVglobemedia's ownership the unique CHUM services will thrive, and their ideas and innovation will be better financed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11934             This will mean that we do not lose the important contributions that Citytv and the other CHUM services have been making to the broadcasting system, and that Canada feature films will continue to have a free TV platform in Canada, and the opportunity to travel around the world.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11935             The marriage of these great companies while preserving City's distinctive voice will contribute greatly to the vitality of our broadcasting system thereby enhancing Canadian content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11936             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  It's fascinating to hear you all.  Obviously you're very satisfied with your relationship with CTV.  You've had a long relationship and it has been mostly beneficial.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11937             For us the key question, of course, is what I posed to the previous panel, why CTV?  Would not another owner of CHUM do the same thing?  That company would have Canadian obligations.  It would offer benefits.  It would make commitments for film, for independent production, et cetera.  And, of course, you are extremely talented and successful producers some of you.  Working with you would be to ‑‑ other owners benefit, of course, because you put a product that people want to see ‑‑ that sells, et cetera.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11938             So explain to me what is special about CTV?  What is its difference?  Why another owner could not do exactly the same thing that CTV has promised or committed to do?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11939             MR. HEYGES:  If I could jump in.  From the feature film standpoint ‑‑ I wanted to address this ‑‑ because feature film is in crisis in this country right now.  And I think that what ‑‑ CHUM has been a supporter of feature film, and our company wouldn't be where it is today had it not been for the support of CHUM and feature film.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11940             What I see in CTV, as Brent mentioned earlier, is a creative company that has the ability to promote and market Canadian content.  That is a component that is missing from the feature film community right now.  To have the creative knowledge and marketing and promotion is an essential component to the success of any feature film.  I think those ‑‑ that is something that is a unique ‑‑ a unique ‑‑ something that is ‑‑ really I can only see CTV as the company that can do that properly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11941             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11942             MR. BUTT:  I ‑‑ oh, sorry.  I just wanted to ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11943             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Whoever wants to speak.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11944             MR. BUTT: When you first posed this question the word that really stuck out in my mind was relationship.  You said we seem to enjoy a good relationship with CTV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11945             For me personally that's ‑‑ that is what it comes down to.  Because I've worked with other broadcasters.  I've worked with CBC, I've worked with Global, I worked with some other independent producers.  But it really comes down to the relationship of the individuals.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11946             When you talk about Rogers or anybody else, you know, adding to these benefits or having to make commitments ‑‑ with CTV it's not legal obligations with them.  It goes more than that.  They can satisfy the legal obligations that they have in a lot easier ways than what my experiences has been with them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11947             One of the things that comes to mind is one of the executives that was put in charge of Corner Gas in the beginning ‑‑ being on the phone with me until 1:30 in the morning listening to my ideas about how I could alter the resolution of the third act of the script I was working on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11948             She didn't have to do that.  She could have easily said, well, you know, e‑mail it to me tomorrow ‑‑ or I'll give you my ideas ‑‑ I said I'm going to be working on this late.  She said, well give me a call whenever you want.  I said it's not going to be until 1:00 or 1:30 in the morning.  And she said that's all right.  We'll talk about it then.  Because she knew I wanted to get this to the story department the next day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11949             So it's those kind of commitments that go beyond the ‑‑ just the obligations that they have to satisfy the Commission.  It really is them wanting to make sure that the creative people have the most opportunity to put their product out there.  That's been my experience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11950             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11951             MS THOMPSON: And following up with Brent.  I think what makes CTV and this exciting, you know, merger to companies ‑‑ exciting for me is that you say we're very interesting and talented bunch, and ‑‑ but I think you have to understand that CTV has nurtured our talent.  On Corner Gas I was a creative producer.  Not an executive producer championing other creative talents before Corner Gas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11952             CTV took a chance on me and on our company to be able to develop us and grow us as they developed Brent and his vision.  It's an extraordinary situation when you have a broadcaster ‑‑ and I believe this broadcaster is extraordinary because of their knowledge.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11953             CTV understands producers because I think their staff members ‑‑ some of them are former producers.  They're also exceptional broadcasters.  They're also exceptional marketers.  They also have an amazing, you know, capacity to understand new media.  They nurture us.  We nurture them.  It is extraordinary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11954             And I've been a producer in Canada for, you know, now ten years.  The most extraordinary experience that I had before working on Corner Gas with Brent Butt and CTV was when our first series, Incredible Stories Studio ‑‑ it was a huge hit in Canada, but it didn't actually really hit until it went overseas.  And I had the opportunity to work with Disney.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11955             And Disney just worked differently than Canadian broadcasters.  They worked as a team.  They nurtured this project and they made it relevant to the European community.  And they knew how to market, and they knew how to promote, and they knew how to nurture.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11956             And I had never been nurtured, marketed, and promoted in that way.  I got that nurturing from Disney International.  And I came back to Canada and I thought I wonder if that could ever happen again.  And it's happened with Corner Gas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11957             So I do believe that this is an exceptional company with exceptional people that have a broad base of knowledge in so many different aspects of broadcasting, marketing, promotion, et cetera that they bring out the best in us.  And I do very much hope that they can bring that with the next generation of producers with this acquisition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11958             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11959             MS SCHUYLER:  I would just like to follow up on that.  It was ‑‑ I don't know about Jully's teeth analogy, but I do know that in sports that the only way that we have winning teams is when we have great depth in the bench.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11960             It was 20 years ago that Ivan and I first met.  And at that point Degrassi was running on CBC, and it was running on a Sunday afternoon time slot around 5 o'clock.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11961             And Ivan called me ‑‑ had just come back to work at CBC, and he called me into his office.  And he said, Linda, I've been aware of this show of yours, and I think we should actually move it to an 8:30 time slot.  And I looked at him and I said, oh very nice to meet you Ivan, but I really don't think that's a very good idea.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11962             And he said well why?  And I said well because I don't feel ‑‑ I don't know if my show is ready for it or whatever.  And he said I am your broadcaster.  I am telling you, you are ready for 8:30.  He said you do your job.  You go and ‑‑ you produce the shows.  I will do my job and I will broadcast them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11963             And in those days Ivan and I worked quite closely.  He used to come down to our office, which was in an old basement.  And he would watch the first cut of every season.  And we would, you know, make sure that together we were happy with the story telling that we were doing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11964             Now we're back with Degrassi the Next Generation.  And I think that word "next generation" speaks volumes.  Not just to what we're doing in front of the camera, but to what's going on behind the camera.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11965             Ivan does not come down to my basement office anymore.  In fact, I'm not even in a basement office anymore.  He has around him ‑‑ when you look at Susanne Boyce and his whole Canadian team, he's not able to work with me on a daily that he used to.  But he has a team around him who share the vision and the passion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11966             I also don't work as closely on the floor on my show as I used to.  I've had to build around me an ‑‑ an infrastructure.  In fact, one of my co‑producers now on Degrassi:  The Next Generation is  Stefan Brogren who if you knew the original Degrassi he used to play Snake and was one of zit remedy.  He has now grown to be a producer with me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11967             So we are together through what CTV is doing, and what we're now able to do in our country is nurture this next level of talent.  Our industry is still a baby industry.  And we're competing as we well know with the forces south of us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11968             And it is only ‑‑ we are only going to mature as an industry if we can continue to build on those relationships and nurture our talent.  So it's ‑‑ you're dealing with a lot of things that are not easy to measure.  Because we're dealing with talent.  We're dealing with creative people and ‑‑ but I think you've heard a lot today about relationships and nurturing, and I can't speak highly enough of the importance of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11969             MR. STOHN:  If I could just add two small points to what Linda said.  And certainly what Steve, Brent, Virginia, and Linda have said, and indeed the previous panel on this issue resonate completely with me.  I'm just trying to make two different points perhaps.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11970             We are facing a very uncertain future in the television world.  I also have a music background, and I know the music industry in the face of the Internet has really ‑‑ is going in to free fall and it's going into massive transformation now.  It's highly likely that over the next few years the television industry may be facing similar kinds of pressure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11971             So we're going to need teams that are, you know, innovated, looking to the future, and willing to adapt.  That also means that we need ‑‑ there is something good about being big and being able to survive what's going forward.  CTV has shown in our relationship with them an extraordinary capacity to innovate in the new media and work with us.  We're small.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11972             I think ironically in this world it's good to be very big.  And it's good to be very small.  We can be nibble and run around and come up with ideas.  CTV ‑‑ I think big ‑‑ they're going to be very, very good and actually crucial over the next while to really have the ability to withstand some of the hurricanes that are going to be thrust in our path.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11973             The second is diversity.  And you know what ‑‑ what I see looking out over the dial, what Linda and I see as producers looking to different networks are ‑‑ as networks get into trouble they tend to move more towards the middle, this may be true in radio as well as in television, and start to appeal more and more to the mass audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11974             Where you've got one owner of two different channels, you actually are going to get more diversity in the system.  If a Rogers were to take over a CHUM, you know, surely their economic self‑interest ‑‑ regardless of what expectations or commitments they made, their economic self‑interest is going to be ‑‑ to make it look more like the most successful network in the country, CTV.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11975             So there's going to be pressures on them to do that.  Whereas, in CTV's economic self‑interest is to make them as different as possible, and indeed they've made that commitment already.  Because they've already got CTV.  Now they want something that, you know, is an adjunct to it.  It's complimentary not in competition with it.  So thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11976             MR. BUTT:  I'd like to just add one thing if I could too.  It's a little anecdotal maybe, but I think it applies to what we're talking about here.  Recently we received word that ABC was interested, based on the success of Corner Gas, of buying the rights to remake it and make it an American show.  Basically take Corner Gas and make it American.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11977             I know for a lot of reasons it ‑‑ probably from the business standpoint ‑‑ was very exciting.  And I think it probably made a lot of sense for CTV financially to have that happen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11978             Virginia and myself and David Story ‑‑ the other executive producers, we just talked about it and it just wasn't sitting well with us.  It was kind of taking the work that the writers and the actors and we as the producers had done and kind of erasing that and getting rid of it.  And suddenly here's a gas station in Nebraska or Idaho, and there is some other guy with a big round head and glasses doing it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11979             ‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11980             It just didn't sit well.  So I didn't know how to say that to CTV really, but I said it.  I said it doesn't sit well with us.  And they said well you don't have to do it.  If you don't want to do it we'll talk to ABC, and it will be fine.  Don't worry about it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11981             They as a champion that was big enough, you know, were able to step between us and a large broadcaster who wanted to essentially take what we did.  They were able to step between them and us and say look, if they don't want to sell they don't have to sell.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11982             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Larose, you represent a community that's clearly growing all the demographics ‑‑ I would suggest becoming more and more important, et cetera.  You mentioned your good relationship that you have with CTV.  And when I visited you about two months ago you could explain it to me in more greater detail as part of my general education.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11983             You must be courted by other networks, too.  I mean other networks must be seeing you.  Can you explain why you have such a good relationship with CTV?  Why you wouldn't be on equal footing with other networks?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11984             MR. LAROSE:  Well, we do work with other networks.  Part of what APTN tries to do is open opportunities for Aboriginal peoples across the broadcasting sector.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11985             Where CTV has made a huge difference for us in many cases is in some of the ‑‑ as I mentioned in my presentation it has gone beyond the strict wording of what the special benefit was.  When we look at the arrangement under the Bell Globe Media transaction, CTV was committed to providing so many dollars for so many years to open the bureaus.  And that was the ‑‑ that was strictly the wording of the arrangement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11986             However, in building the relationship with them it has become much more than that.  We are now two years past the special benefits.  We have worked to establish an entirely new relationship, built on the fact that they have a range of outlets across the country that allow us to tell our stories to Canadians from our perspectives from our point of view.  That is really the only outlet we have right now outside of APTN when it comes to news in that formal arrangement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11987             When we started discussing this proposal initially, the idea that I had ‑‑ and I mean it's interesting that I am sitting at same table as Mr. Butt ‑‑ I keep using Corner Gas as an example of the type of production that APTN would dearly love to do with somebody like CTV where we have Warren Cardinal, to whom I spoke by the way about this proposal and he was all enthusiastic about the opportunities it may provide to some of our actors and other players in the industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11988             This is the type of thing that we feel right now and we know by experience that the commitment that they have made will be lived up to.  They have lived up to every commitment and then gone beyond.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11989             Last fall when we did the Aboriginal People's Choice Music Awards we approached ‑‑ I approached Bell ExpressVu which is part of the overall family, if you wish, and I asked them ‑‑ I said, you know, you don't have any obligation to APTN but we are doing this live show and I would love to do it in HD and I would love to get it out across the view channel.  ExpressVu provided it at no charge to APTN or to the producer, the Aboriginal Production community, at all, their HD truck; all of their equipment, all of their personal.  Basically, they provided us a one‑time benefit of over $170,000 just to help us put this show out, something that nobody else has ever offered before.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11990             So I think ‑‑ to me, what has been key in this relationship and we are trying to build that relationship with others like Omni, as an example where we have many similarities, and we have been successful with Omni.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11991             But with CTV I know that when I call ‑‑ whether it's Robert Hurst, it's Terry Snazel; it's one of the key people over there with whom I am working, not only will I get a callback, often I get a response.  They actually pick up the phone and we can actually talk about these things and something concrete has come out of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11992             The same was with CHUM.  I could call Sarah.  I can call people over there and I knew that they would be part and parcel of finding a solution and helping us move forward.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11993             And to us that's key having been out of this industry, you know, forever until the CRTC gave us an opportunity almost eight years ago now, has been ‑‑ you know, they have been very strong supporters of the aboriginal people initiatives and we believe that this merger will only reinforce not only the relationship but the possibilities.  I don't see any negatives to it.  I mean, I can go back to when we looked back in the sixties when ‑‑ a study in journalism.  We had the Kent Commission on media concentration and the newspaper industry.  There were great fears that there would be ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11994             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Wait just for the fall when we have the diversity of voices hearing.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11995             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We want to hear from you then.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11996             Helen, you had a question?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11997             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Just I am following up on the question on your loyalty to CTV, and I obviously can sense that, but what about thinking of it from another perspective as well?  CTV will be there.  Like the CTV stations as they stand is what you have built the loyalty with your successes with, but what about the opportunity of an additional outlet; someone else who also has or could be as strong for you to also start building another ‑‑ the same type of relationship?  What about an additional outlet?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11998             Do you think that your existing relationship with CTV can completely outweigh the possibility of additional opportunities?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11999             MR. STOHN:  Well, I think to us, to Linda and me, I mean I don't think we are looking at this as just having one outlet.  I think the commitments that certainly I heard yesterday, was that there was going to be a vibrant and increasingly successful CHUM network with a separate program buyer and we have got our existing relationships with CTV.  So it seems like almost the best possible situation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12000             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You mentioned, basically, only CTV can complement and I would like you to explain that.  I find this kind of goes contra to us as far as I am concerned.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12001             Surely, you want to find a part of the market where you can compete and you can make a lot of ‑‑ your suggestion that if CHUM was sold to somebody else they would move to the centre, they would shed the City image and edginess and just try to become another CTV, obviously that's a possibility but there clearly is a market for CHUM.  Otherwise, CTV wouldn't want to have it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12002             Secondly, CHUM has been around a long time.  It has been very successful; of late, not so much but the question is whether that market can't be explored more meaningfully with somebody with deeper resources.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12003             So why are you automatically assuming that CHUM under a different owner would gravitate towards the centre rather than exploring the established niche, if you want to call it that, that CTV ‑‑ that City established?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12004             MR. STOHN:  The analogy that I used, I went to university in a small town in Ontario which only had two radio stations and they were both owned by different people and they both ended up sounding like Hot AC contemporary stations.  And that was nice if you happened to like Hot AC and contemporary music, but if one person owned both those stations in the market then it would seem, it just seems to me both intuitive and economically the way it would happen is that they would have one Hot AC contemporary station and another, perhaps a country station or a niche station because why compete with themselves?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12005             So that's why it is my view that if someone is owning two stations in a market, it will be in their self‑interest rather than competing with and trying to cannibalize themselves to really stretch out.  I think what you are saying is, well, isn't it in somebody else's interest to do that as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12006             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12007             MR. STOHN:  And to a certain extent, after the middle has been occupied that may be that they are forced to the edges, but the low hanging fruit will be that core middle audience that the advertisers are really desiring and that they have been able to deliver and that's why CTV has so many of the Top 20 shows already. People are going to want a share of that pie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12008             That's my view in any event.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12009             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But your analogies and casting back to your youth, different age, different time and much more sophisticated, much more demanding audience; not many more platforms in a fragmented market and urban market.  Doesn't that ‑‑ it is basically saying the middle is ‑‑ the low hanging fruit is not that big anymore and that all you can have is the off centre very successfully?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12010             MR. STOHN:  Certainly, we know that in the specialty area that's exactly what has happened, so on the cable channels we are seeing the success of the specialty channels that have arisen.  But when we are still in the conventional over‑the‑air space where there are a limited number of players, to me it seems there that when you are appealing to the mass audience the tendency will be to move towards the middle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12011             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12012             Rita, you had a question?  Oh, I am sorry.  I apologize.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12013             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  So I am sorry.  May I finish with my question?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12014             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12015             COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Just because there is a lot of concern from other intervenors on just the loss of the ‑‑ the number of outlets and I think the panel before us here are established, you know, by any stretch of the imagination but if you think on when you were starting would it not be beneficial to have more doors to knock on, to have just more strong outlets because the fact is that what is being asked before us that will be created is a very, very large conglomerate and then you do think about, you know, who are the others who could survive.  There probably will not be that many.  So then there would be diminished amounts of players.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12016             I mean, can you comment on the loss of outlets and do you see any benefit in sort of creating opportunities for other strong outlets?  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12017             MR. STOHN:  If I can ‑‑ I don't mean to monopolize this but what I am hearing you saying is that because CTV CHUM between the two outlets will become so dominant that it may result in other players having to leave the marketplace and I am not seeing that.  I know that the Competition Bureau has looked at this and said, no, no, there won't be that kind of dominant position.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12018             So to me I am seeing the same players still in the marketplace and an even stronger CHUM outlet as a result of this acquisition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12019             MR. WEINSTEIN:  I am seeing this from an entirely different point of view and, actually, it's sort of the opposite of what you are saying in that CTVglobemedia is ‑‑ when I found out about this possible acquisition I was actually quite terrified because ‑‑ I told you a little bit about the trends in classical music and performing arts and my first thought was, okay, well, that's it.  Bravo! is dead because a lot of people will look at these trends.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12020             And then I started speaking to the people there at Bravo! and at City and they were having meetings with the people at CTV and they started having ‑‑ they started having this optimism and this ‑‑ and I thought ‑‑ I didn't know what this was all about and then I was talking to some of the CTV people and I realized there was this sincere interest in preserving the distinct nature of the channels but also to really promote culture.  It is something that CTV hadn't done as much and it was really exciting to them.  This was really something that reassured me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12021             And, in fact, this whole question yesterday about edge.  I mean, edge, edgy programming what does that mean?  Does that mean it's hip?  Does it mean ‑‑ what does that mean?  But in a way, I mean, I make classical programs.  They are the least edgy things if you think about them but it was about groundbreaking as well and about pushing extremes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12022             So Bravo! was always really interested in the ideas that we are a little more experimental or a little bit more political musical and these things did very well.  But the idea of ‑‑ when I realized ‑‑ I mean, Ivan Fecan's own interest in both preserving the different nature of these channels but also of the love of culture and the importance of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12023             What it made me realize is the opposite, which is I didn't want just a monopoly in culture in Canada.  I have a wonderful relationship with CBC but I also have a wonderful relationship with Bravo! and the idea of one of those things disappearing terrifies me and, you know, for a while there it looked like both were going to disappear in terms of culture but I think that's not the case in either case.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12024             MR. BUTT:  Yes, I don't ‑‑ sorry, I was just going to say I don't really look at this as, you know if this acquisition is allowed to take place, I don't look at it as there being fewer doors suddenly.  I look at it long term as those existing doors that are out there have a greater chance of still being there 10 or 15 years down the road and my fear is that without a strong champion stewarding those, you know the keepers of those doors, those doors might be boarded up in a few years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12025             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12026             Well, we certainly have covered a lot of ground this morning so I hope to not keep you here for too much longer.  But I do have just a couple of questions on specifics and in particular for Ms Schuyler and Mr. Stohn.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12027             You spoke about the CTV ‑‑ BCE‑CTV benefits providing financial, creative and marketing support of the websites for both Degrassi and Instant Star and an array of new media initiatives.  Who owns the rights to those initiatives?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12028             MR. STOHN:  We do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12029             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So you are able to fully exploit all the new media and ancillary rights?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12030             MR. STOHN:  Absolutely.  So CTV has licensed certain rights during the term of their television rights within Canada but in the foreign markets we control those rights.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12031