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Providing Content in Canada's Official Languages

Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

              TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

 

 

 

 

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

 

 

                       SUBJECT/SUJET:

 

 

 

VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

 

Conference Centre                     Centre de conférences

Pontiac Room                          Salle Pontiac

Portage IV                            Portage IV

140 Promenade du Portage              140, promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                      Gatineau (Québec)

 

May 1st, 2007                          Le 1er mai 2007

 

 


 

 

 

 

Transcripts

 

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

 

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

 

 

 

 

Transcription

 

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

 

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.


               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

 

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

 

 

                 Transcript / Transcription

 

 

 

            VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /

            PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

 

 

 

 

 

BEFORE / DEVANT:

 

Michel Arpin                      Chairperson / Président

Barbara Cram                      Commissioner / Conseillère

Andrée Noël                       Commissioner / Conseillère

 

 

 

 

 

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

 

Jade Roy                          Secretary / Secrétaire

Francine Laurier-Guy              Hearing Manager /

Gérante de l'audience

Valérie Lagacé                    Legal Counsel /

Conseillère juridique

 

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

 

Conference Centre                 Centre de conférences

Pontiac Room                      Salle Pontiac

Portage IV                        Portage IV

140 Promenade du Portage          140, promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                  Gatineau (Québec)

 

May 1st, 2007                     Le 1er mai 2007

 


           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

 

                                                 PAGE / PARA

 

PHASE I

 

 

PRÉSENTATION PAR / PRESENTATION BY:

 

Hellenic canadien câble radio ltée (Cont.)        351 / 2058

 

Neeti P. Ray (OBCI)                               370 / 2218

 

International Harvesters for Christ               436 / 2617

  Evangelistic Association Inc.

 

S.S. TV Inc.                                      492 / 3069

 

Radio Humsafar                                    546 / 3470

 

Communications Média Évangélique                  592 / 3862

 

 

 

PHASE II

 

 

INTERVENTION PAR / INTERVENTION BY:

 

Yves Sauvé                                        668 / 4447

 

Hellenic canadien câble radio ltée                674 / 4493

 

René Ferron                                       686 / 4572

 

Neeti P. Ray                                      690 / 4592

 

S.S. TV Inc.                                      696 / 4623

 

Radio Humsafar                                    701 / 4663

 

Communications Média Évangélique                  705 / 4696

 


                 Gatineau (Québec) / Gatineau, Quebec

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Tuesday, May 1st, 2007

    at 0830 / L'audience débute le mardi 1er mai 2007

    à 0830

LISTNUM 1 \l 1 \s 20532053             LE PRÉSIDENT :  Nous entendrons, en premier, les représentants de la requérante Canadian Hellenic Cable Radio, suite à quoi nous procéderons avec le prochain item de l'audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12054             C'est exact, Madame la secrétaire?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12055             LA SECRÉTAIRE : Exact, Monsieur le président.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12056             LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci, Madame.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12057             Alors, bienvenue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12058             MRS. GRIFFITHS:  Good morning, Mr. President, Madam Commissioner, Mr. Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12059             I am Marie Griffiths.  You remember Allan Mass, our partner; Bill Schwartz, who is our financial advisor and accountant; and here he is, Jean Fréchette, our engineer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12060             M. FRÉCHETTE : Bonjour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12061             LE PRÉSIDENT : Bonjour, Monsieur Fréchette.  Avec votre permission, je vais vous poser des questions en français.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12062             M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui, oui, oui.  C'est ma langue.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12063             LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12064             Monsieur Fréchette, comme vous êtes l'ingénieur au dossier, vous êtes familier avec les enjeux d'un deuxième adjacent à une fréquence, d'une part, et d'autre part, vous êtes sans doute connaissant du fait que, au moment où on se parle, Aboriginal Voice Radio occupe un site temporaire et que, éventuellement, ils se relocaliseront à un endroit autre que le site qu'ils occupent présentement.  Du moins, c'est ce que le Conseil semble avoir reçu comme information, soit de la part de AVR, soit de la part du ministère de l'Industrie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12065             Advenant que AVR se relocalise à un site différent de celui qu'il est présentement, quel sera l'impact sur votre projet?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12066             M. FRÉCHETTE : Vous voulez dire qu'il s'installe à son site permanent...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12067             LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12068             M. FRÉCHETTE : ...qui serait, par exemple, le Tour de la Bourse ou...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12069             LE PRÉSIDENT : Bien, je ne le sais...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12070             M. FRÉCHETTE : Moi non plus, je ne le sais pas là, mais je fais ça comme hypothèse.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12071             LE PRÉSIDENT : Bien, actuellement, si je regarde la carte de rayonnement que vous avez déposée...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12072             M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui.  Nous, on est sur le Mont‑Royal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12073             LE PRÉSIDENT : ...et ses coordonnées, vous êtes sur le Mont‑Royal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12074             M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12075             LE PRÉSIDENT : Est‑ce que vous avez l'intention de vous implanter au Mont‑Royal?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12076             M. FRÉCHETTE :  Oui, oui.  Bien, écoutez, je vous explique brièvement comment on s'est retrouvé là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12077             A mon avis, le meilleur site à Montréal, c'est le Mont‑Royal.  Donc, il y a beaucoup de stations qui... des stations majeures qui ont déménagé au Mont‑Royal, même des stations qui avaient 100,000 watts.  Donc, forcément, avec notre petit 300 watts ou 200‑300 watts maximum, on se doit d'être au Mont‑Royal.  Pour desservir Montréal, il faut être au Mont‑Royal.  Techniquement, je crois que c'est un must.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12078             Donc, pour moi... et d'autant plus que l'expérience du 105.1 nous a montré qu'on avait un très bon signal à partir du Mont‑Royal.  Donc, il fallait être là.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12079             L'autre raison pour laquelle je trouvais que le Mont‑Royal, c'était un bon endroit pour la situation des seconds adjacents, c'est que la zone de brouillage qui est la plus importante dans ces cas‑là, c'est à côté des antennes, c'est‑à‑dire là où le signal est élevé.  L'avantage du Mont‑Royal, c'est que là où le signal est très élevé, notre signal est très élevé, donc, là où on pourrait brouiller AVR, peu importe où il est, c'est un parc, donc, il n'y a personne.  Enfin, il n'y a pas d'habitations, il y a moins de personnes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12080             Donc, c'est un double avantage d'être au Mont‑Royal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12081             Maintenant, si Industrie Canada ou la réglementation nous oblige à être au même endroit que AVR, on n'a pas d'objection, à condition qu'on sache où ils sont.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12082             LE PRÉSIDENT : Donc, vous n'auriez pas d'objection de co‑localiser, mais à votre avis...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12083             M. FRÉCHETTE : Bien, mon avis, c'est le Mont‑Royal, c'est...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12084             LE PRÉSIDENT : A votre avis, basé sur votre expertise, le meilleur site pour vous, c'est le Mont‑Royal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12085             Je présume que ce serait également le cas pour AVR; ce serait le meilleur site pour eux, je présume?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12086             M. FRÉCHETTE : Bien, si on met ces arguments‑là bout à bout, c'est‑à‑dire desservir Montréal, il y a une montagne à Montréal, il faut être sur la montagne.  Comme je dis, il y a beaucoup de stations qui...  Il y a des stations... il y a une station de 100 000 watts, qui était au coin de Berri et Sherbrooke, qui est déménagée sur le Mont‑Royal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12087             LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12088             M. FRÉCHETTE : Nous, on parle de 300 watts.  Alors, il faut être sur le Mont‑Royal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12089             Ensuite, il faut être ensemble.  C'est sûr que s'ils étaient sur le Mont‑Royal avec nous, ça serait... si c'est faisable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12090             LE PRÉSIDENT : Ça serait la situation idéale.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12091             M. FRÉCHETTE : Puis l'autre chose, c'est que le Mont‑Royal, c'est un parc, donc, la zone de brouillage intense, ou là où on risque d'avoir des gros problèmes, bien...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12092             LE PRÉSIDENT : Est‑ce que le Mont Royal, les tours du Mont‑Royal souffrent encore de problèmes de sécurité?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12093             M. FRÉCHETTE : Du Code 6?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12094             LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12095             M. FRÉCHETTE : Pas à l'endroit où on a fait le projet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12096             LE PRÉSIDENT : Pas à l'endroit où le projet serait...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12097             M. FRÉCHETTE : Non, surtout aux puissances dont on parle.  On parle de petites puissances, donc...  D'ailleurs, le projet tel qu'on l'a présenté a été accepté, ces études là ont été faites.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12098             LE PRÉSIDENT : Ces études‑là ont déjà été réalisées, donc, c'est acceptable... ce serait sur la tour de Radio‑Canada ou sur l'autre tour?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12099             M. FRÉCHETTE : Non, de Bell, la tour de Bell.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12100             LE PRÉSIDENT : Sur la tour de Bell.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12101             M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12102             LE PRÉSIDENT : Et Bell va procéder à des...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12103             M. FRÉCHETTE : Non, c'est‑à‑dire nous, on doit...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12104             LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous avez fait une... des simulations?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12105             M. FRÉCHETTE : Non, mais quand on présente un projet comme ça, il faut présenter au ministère un calcul qui montre qu'on ne dépasse pas les normes.  Donc, ce projet est irrecevable si on ne présente pas ce calcul‑là.  Il a été fait.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12106             LE PRÉSIDENT : Il a été fait, puis...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12107             M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12108             LE PRÉSIDENT : ...je vois aux notes du dossier que le ministère consent à approuver le...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12109             M. FRÉCHETTE : Vous voyez, nous, l'avantage de ‑‑ je dirais, la beauté de ce projet‑là, c'est que, avec le 105.1, on a fait nos armes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12110             Puis autant du côté signal, je dirais, site, par exemple, on connaît bien le site, on est là déjà.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12111             Puis autant du côté deuxième adjacent, puisqu'il y a un deuxième adjacent, qui est la petite station de Radio‑Canada à 104,7, qui est juste à côté, et qui est un deuxième adjacent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12112             Donc, on connaît déjà, je dirais, le fonctionnement.  Puis, en plus, ce ne sont pas des sites qui sont au même endroit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12113             LE PRÉSIDENT : Ça, le 104,7, c'est celui que Radio‑Canada voulait installer au coin de Sherbrooke et Cavendish?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12114             M. FRÉCHETTE : Qu'il a installé.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12115             LE PRÉSIDENT : Qu'il a installé?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12116             M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12117             LE PRÉSIDENT : Puis là, il est rendu sur le Mont‑Royal?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12118             M. FRÉCHETTE : Non, non, non.  Non, non.  C'est que, justement, c'est un bel exemple de... ce n'est pas au même site.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12119             LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous n'êtes pas co localisés?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12120             M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui.  Je cherchais le mot là.  C'est ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12121             LE PRÉSIDENT : C'est ça, bon, vous n'êtes pas co localisés.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12122             M. FRÉCHETTE : C'est ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12123             LE PRÉSIDENT : O.K.  Et ça fonctionne bien parce que c'est un deuxième adjacent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12124             M. FRÉCHETTE : On vit avec depuis trois ans maintenant, puis...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12125             LE PRÉSIDENT : Et ni un ni l'autre ne rapporte de problème de brouillage qui...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12126             M. FRÉCHETTE : Je pense qu'on peut dire que...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12127             LE PRÉSIDENT : ...autre que ceux qui étaient prévus dans...


LISTNUM 1 \l 12128             M. FRÉCHETTE : Je vais vous dire quelque chose, quand on a commencé le 105.1... d'ailleurs, c'est toujours le problème de ces petites fréquences‑là, ou ces petites puissances‑là plutôt, on se demande toujours ce que ça va donner, hein, parce qu'il y a plusieurs années, on n'aurait même pas imaginé présenter un projet ici avec 200‑300 watts, ça aurait été un peu risible même.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12129             Mais là, on l'a fait à 105,1.  Le signal a été assez surprenant, et, à mon avis, une des raisons, c'est le Mont‑Royal.  Puis ce qui nous inquiétait encore plus, avec ça, il y avait non seulement la petite puissance, mais il y avait le 104,7 juste à côté, qu'on avait accepté...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12130             MS GRIFFITHS: De vivre avec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12131             M. FRÉCHETTE :  On avait accepté de vivre avec.  On s'était dit, évidemment, ça plus de chance de fonctionner si on accepte.  Puis trois ans d'opération, puis ça marche.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12132             LE PRÉSIDENT : Puis Radio‑Canada...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12133             M. FRÉCHETTE : A ma connaissance, il ne s'en est pas plaint là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12134             LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous le sauriez?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12135             M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12136             LE PRÉSIDENT : Ils sont rapides pour le dire?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12137             M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui, oui.  D'ailleurs, ils ont fait les mesures et tout ça.  Puis, d'ailleurs, ça été très intéressant comme référence.  On a des choses concrètes là.  On ne parle pas de quelque chose qui est peut‑être, probablement, et caetera.  On sait ce que ça donne.  Donc, c'est un peu dans le même esprit qu'on a monté ce projet‑là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12138             LE PRÉSIDENT : Et vous dites que le brouillage, si brouillage il y a, il est immédiatement dans le parc, donc, il n'affectera aucun auditeur?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12139             M. FRÉCHETTE : Moins, disons.  Il y a ceux qui se promènent là.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12140             LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui, oui, évidemment là, qui...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12141             M. FRÉCHETTE : Mais même là, je vais vous dire, j'ai été surpris personnellement.  Vous savez, on fait des études théoriques, puis on va dans le champ, souvent les études théoriques sont plus sévères que la réalité.  Puis moi, ça ne m'inquiète pas, en tout cas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12142             LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous n'êtes pas sans savoir, puis vous en exploiter un deuxième adjacent, que certains récepteurs sont plus sensibles aux interférences, notamment, les récepteurs de basse qualité, les récepteurs portables, les réveille‑matin.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12143             Est‑ce que vous pensez que cela a une incidence potentielle sur votre auditoire, le fait que cette catégorie de récepteur serait susceptible à ne pas recevoir, effectivement, le signal?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12144             Il y a quand même, dans le parc, des récepteurs, et c'est un nombre assez absolu...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12145             M. FRÉCHETTE : Important.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12146             LE PRÉSIDENT : ...important.  Ce n'est pas tout le monde qui a des Bosch et des appareils Harmon Kardon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12147             M. FRÉCHETTE : Bien là, comme je vous dis, actuellement, ça fonctionne.  Moi, je dirais, le principal handicap, ce n'est pas tellement le deuxième adjacent, c'est la puissance, c'est des problèmes...  Puis, comme je vous dis aussi, c'est qu'on est sur le Mont‑Royal, puis ça fonctionne bien.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12148             C'est le fait qu'on n'a pas beaucoup de signal qui pourrait être un handicap au départ, mais aujourd'hui, on a une assurance qu'on n'avait pas même il y a trois ans quand on a présenté l'autre projet en disant...  On disait, bon, 200‑300 watts, est‑ce que ça va être bon, est‑ce que ça va fonctionner même?  Puis là, ça fonctionne bien.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12149             C'est vrai que, à 100 000 watts, on serait mieux.  C'est vrai que si on n'avait pas de deuxième adjacent, on serait mieux aussi.  Mais ça fonctionne.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12150             LE PRÉSIDENT : Puis le 105,1, quelle est la puissance de cette...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12151             M. FRÉCHETTE : C'est du même ordre. C'est une centaine de watts, moyen là, puis 300 watts, 200‑300 watts rayonnés.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12152             LE PRÉSIDENT : Donc, c'est des... on parle de...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12153             M. FRÉCHETTE : De petites...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12154             LE PRÉSIDENT : ...de puissances comparables entre...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12155             M. FRÉCHETTE : Tout à fait.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12156             LE PRÉSIDENT : Tout à fait.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12157             M. FRÉCHETTE : Tout à fait.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12158             LE PRÉSIDENT : Et quel territoire, réellement, ça dessert sur... parce que la carte, vous l'avez dit tantôt, entre la pratique et la théorie là...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12159             M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui.  Mais je vais... mais j'aurais le goût de laisser parler Marie là dessus parce que c'est eux qui reçoivent les...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12160             Mais moi, personnellement, de ce que j'ai vu, c'est qu'on réussit à faire, je dirais, l'île de Montréal, peut‑être pas vers l'ouest là complètement, parce que quand on dit l'île de Montréal, c'est peut‑être un peu grand là, mais... je ne sais pas.  Marie.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12161             MS GRIFFITHS:  Yes.  First of all, we have to tell you we were pleasantly surprised with the coverage we got.  I don't think for a minute ‑‑ and I am not an engineer ‑‑ had he not installed it the way he did at the mountain, at the height we are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12162             I learned a lot of things from him.  You could have 2 watts and be four miles up in the sky and you could cover half the world.  So it wasn't so much the number as the location and the quality.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12163             We reach all of the west Island.  We go as far as ‑‑ when I drive to Ottawa, up to Hawkesbury I can hear 105.1.  We hear it in L'Estrie.  It comes in loud and clear in Dorion/Valleyfield, for example.  It goes all the way up north past Saint‑Sauveur.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12164             People ask us:  What are you broadcasting at, 10,000 watts?  So there is no more shame in saying we have 300 watts.  It is what you get at the end of the day.  The proof is in the pudding.  We have a great signal, a tight, good, clear signal, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12165             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So if I am just looking at the community you are looking to serve, where they are located your signal will reach them?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12166             MS GRIFFITHS:  Sir, it reaches further than we even thought but you are perfectly right when you say there are certain receivers ‑‑ for example, we have a small area of two blocks around Descaries ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12167             M. FRÉCHETTE : C'est ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12168             MS GRIFFITHS:  ‑‑ remember, at Queen Mary, where for some reason the reception is not good.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12169             M. FRÉCHETTE :  Oui, c'est ce que j'allais dire.  C'est que la radiodiffusion, vous savez, on pourrait dire probablement qu'à Saint‑Sauveur, ça rentre ou à des endroits... mais l'idée, c'est de rentrer partout dans la région visée.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12170             C'est certain que si on faisait une étude, on arriverait à un taux peut‑être de 70‑80 pour cent, quelque chose comme ça.  Ce n'est pas 100 pour cent, puis ce n'est sûrement pas équivalent aux autres stations de 100 000 watts, mais c'est vivable, c'est viable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12171             LE PRÉSIDENT : Monsieur Fréchette, comme vous savez, le Conseil, en décembre dernier, en révisant sa politique sur la bande L, a conclu que peut‑être qu'il y avait d'autres technologies qui pouvaient être susceptibles de numériser le signal et que les Canadiens seraient intéressés à cet autre type de technologie.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12172             Une que le Conseil a dit accepter, dans la mesure où Industrie Canada la normalise, c'est la technologie in‑band on‑channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12173             Or, si cette technologie se voit introduite au Canada, est‑ce que vous avez des plans pour introduire le IBOC sur la station que vous demandez aujourd'hui?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12174             M. FRÉCHETTE : Écoutez, à mon avis, ça serait une très bonne chose pour ces petites stations là d'introduire des technologies comme ça, parce que ça a l'avantage, de ce que j'ai lu sur ça... parce que je dois dire que j'en ai jamais implanté personnellement au Canada, évidemment, parce que ce n'est pas autorisé encore, mais j'espère que ça viendra, ou l'autre aussi, d'ailleurs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12175             LE PRÉSIDENT : Mais je sais que vous voyagez à travers le monde, donc...

‑‑‑ Rires / Laughter

LISTNUM 1 \l 12176             M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui.  En fait, je ne pense pas que ça soit en Europe non plus, ni en Afrique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12177             Mais là, vous m'avez... j'ai perdu le fil là.

‑‑‑ Rires / Laughter


LISTNUM 1 \l 12178             LE PRÉSIDENT : On parlait de l'introduction du IBOC et puis des problèmes que vous anticiperiez.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12179             M. FRÉCHETTE : Non, mais en fait, je...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12180             LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous venez juste de dire que, à votre avis, ça serait une excellente...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12181             M. FRÉCHETTE : C'est ça.  En fait, je trouve... en premier lieu, je trouve que ça serait une excellente chose pour les petites stations qui ont une centaine de watts, parce qu'il s'avère que ça augmente leur territoire, ça permet d'aller rejoindre des... parce que le digital a besoin de moins de signal pour atteindre une qualité intéressante.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12182             C'est la même chose qu'en télévision, c'est‑à‑dire... et plus, disons, à l'abris des interférences.  Donc, ça permet de couvrir un territoire meilleur... un meilleur territoire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12183             Par ailleurs, c'est certain que la technologie IBOC, ce qu'ils ont fait, c'est qu'ils ajoutent une porteuse digitale aux extrémités de la bande FM, qui, normalement, est réservée à la bande FM, ce qui fait qu'elle devient pratiquement... l'espacement entre les canaux est très, très... en fait, il reste 4 kilohertz, qui n'est pas beaucoup.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12184             Bon, à première vue, on pourrait dire ça pose problème.  Ce que j'ai lu là‑dessus... il y une étude dont j'ai une copie ici, ou enfin juste un résumé, qui montre que pour le deuxième adjacent et même pour le premier adjacent, l'effet n'est pas significatif.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12185             MME GRIFFITHS : Du IBOC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12186             M. FRÉCHETTE : Du IBOC, c'est ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12187             Donc, en autres mots là, si je résume, c'est que si les deux stations opèrent le IBOC, ça ne va pas affecter leur signal analogique, deux stations, deuxième adjacent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12188             LE PRÉSIDENT : Si je comprends bien, il faudrait... est‑ce qu'il faut que les deux stations se transforment au IBOC au même moment...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12189             M. FRÉCHETTE : Non.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12190             LE PRÉSIDENT : ...ou une peut le faire, puis l'autre décider de ne pas le faire?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12191             M. FRÉCHETTE : Absolument.  Ce dont je parle, c'est le signal analogique là, c'est‑à‑dire...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12192             LE PRÉSIDENT : Ah! bon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12193             M. FRÉCHETTE : Les deux stations sont en signal analogique...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12194             LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12195             M. FRÉCHETTE : ...c'est‑à‑dire le signal conventionnel qu'on connaît.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12196             LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12197             M. FRÉCHETTE : Une décide d'aller en IBOC, ça ne dérange pas l'autre en signal analogique.  Les deux décident, ça ne dérange pas l'autre non plus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12198             Ils ont fait des tests avec des récepteurs.  Ils ont mis le IBOC, ils l'ont enlevé, puis ils ont demandé aux gens d'évaluer la qualité, puis les résultats sont, ce qu'ils disent, non‑significatifs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12199             LE PRÉSIDENT : Non‑significatifs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12200             M. FRÉCHETTE : C'est ce que j'ai lu.  Il y a une étude du NRSC américain sur ça.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12201             LE PRÉSIDENT : Est‑ce que vous accepteriez de partager votre étude avec le Conseil?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12202             M. FRÉCHETTE : Bien, oui.  Bien, comme je vous dis, ça 60 pages, mais...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12203             LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous avez un sommaire?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12204             M. FRÉCHETTE : Je vais vous le lire... non, non.

‑‑‑ Rires / Laughter

LISTNUM 1 \l 12205             M. FRÉCHETTE : Non, bien c'est‑à‑dire ce que j'ai retenu, c'est, d'abord, la page couverture, puis deux tableaux, finalement.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12206             Bien, les tableaux les plus significatifs, c'est celui qui parle... il y a deux tableaux sur le deuxième adjacent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12207             LE PRÉSIDENT : Mais si vous acceptiez de laisser une copie à la secrétaire...

LISTNUM 1 \l 12208             M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12209             LE PRÉSIDENT : ...de l'audience, puis elle s'assurera de partager les informations avec le personnel et les membres du Conseil.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12210             Madame Griffiths, Monsieur Fréchette, ça termine mes questions.  Je vous remercie pour ce matin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12211             M. FRÉCHETTE : Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12212             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mrs. Secretary, we will move to the next item.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12213             LA SECRÉTAIRE : Merci, Monsieur le président.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12214             We will now proceed with item 15 on the agenda which is an application by Neeti P. Ray, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated, for a licence to operate a commercial specialty FM (ethnic radio) station in Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12215             The new station would operate on frequency 106.3 MHz (channel 292A) an average effective radiated power of 324 watts (maximum effective radiated power of 1,200 watts/antenna height of 198.9 metres).


‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 12216             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Ray, when you are ready.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12217             THE SECRETARY:  Please introduce your colleagues and you will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation.  Thank you.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 12218             MR. RAY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12219             Mr. Chairman, Commissioner French and Commissioner Cram, good morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12220             It is with a sense of pride and commitment that we appear before you today seeking approval to establish an over‑the‑air ethnic FM radio broadcasting undertaking on 106.3 FM in Montreal and before I do that I take this opportunity to introduce my panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12221             On my right is Dr. Ralph Agard.  Dr. Agard has been the Director of Human Rights and Equity at the University of Guelph and taught graduate study Faculty of Social Work Cultural Diversity at the University of Toronto.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12222             On my left and on your right is Julia Ciamarra.  She is a long‑time Montrealer who has been a community activist for the past many years in Montreal's Hungarian community in particular and has brought her ethnic mosaic in general.  Julia is also a member of our proposed board of directors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12223             On Julia's left is Rita Simon.  She is an event organizer in Montreal's Hungarian community, a Hungarian teacher who also used to teach English in Budapest, Hungary, before migrating to Montreal in 1982, and Rita is part of the proposed Montreal station's advisory council.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12224             Before I start I must apologize that yesterday we had kind of a miscalculation of the timing and we thought we would be certainly up yesterday.  As a result, two of our panel members, Mr. Khanna and Mr. Chadda, who had taken the day off from their work, unfortunately, were unable to do that today unless they lose their job.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12225             Also, our engineer, Mr. Peter Cahn, because of his heath and his age and the fact that he recently had heart surgery was unable to make it back but, fortunately, Mr. Jim Moltner, who is behind me, will be representing us in place of Mr. Cahn.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12226             I should also take this opportunity to thank very much Mr. Jeff Lutes of International Harvesters who will be making a presentation later today for having allowed his engineer, Mr. Moltner, to speak on our behalf.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12227             Now to start the formal part of our presentation, Mr. Chairman and commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12228             Montreal today stands as the third largest and most culturally diverse urban centre in Canada.  It remains one of the last major markets where a significant number of third‑language communities remain without any over‑the‑air radio service in their respective mother tongues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12229             In fact, when you consider the national South‑Asian listening audience of Canada's three largest diverse urban centres, Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal, Montreal remains the only one without any dedicated FM service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12230             In addition, 14 of Montreal's diverse third‑language communities have no programming hours available to them from any commercial radio station and three language groups are very underserved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12231             Based on our consultations with local third‑language consumers, the need and demand for our proposed new ethnic FM radio station is abundantly clear and is overdue.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12232             Consistent with our findings of the need for dedicated ethnic radio programming services for the region's multicultural communities that we propose to serve, we draw your attention, commissioners, to two letters to the Commission by Montreal organizations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12233             The past president of India‑Canada Association, Mr. Bhargav, stated:

"An important element in an immigrant community's growth is access to local information, local and homeland news and interaction about who we are and how we feel about our lives in Canada.  Radio plays the most important role in providing access to all of the above.  Unlike larger ethnic communities and the mainstream population, the South‑Asian and many other communities have very little or no radio service that they can enjoy and benefit from."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12234             Rita.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12235             MS SIMON:  Another national organization based in Montreal, the Hungarian Canadian Chamber of Commerce, also wrote to the Commission reinforcing the long‑held Canadian government policy on integration wherein the maintenance of cultural identity is an essential part of shaping the national Canadian identity and we quote:

"Our people are hard‑working Canadians.  When they will hear radio programs in Hungarian it will further reinforce the deep cultural values that we all came to Canada with.  Our children will benefit the most.  It will revitalize community activities as well as help the business community in its prosperity."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12236             The proposed Montreal radio station's inclusive approach to serving 20 cultural communities in 17 languages is both necessary and desirable.  Given that 14 out of these 17 languages have no service on existing commercial radio stations and three have a mere 30 to 90 minutes per week of radio programming, the obvious need, we argue, can only be met by a new multicultural station entering the market.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12237             MR. RAY:  As experienced ethnic broadcasters we know the true value of third‑language radio programming to multicultural communities.  We are all those communities.  We immigrated to Canada and have lived the experience of trying to find our way and fit into the new way of life as Canadians and we have witnessed the importance that a permanent radio voice holds for Canada's multicultural communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12238             In the words of Dr. Reikov(ph) of the Clarke Institute of Psychiatry:

"A transition to a new culture is made more easily by people who come with a strong sense of their ethnic identity."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12239             Eminent Canadian sociologist Raymond Britain has in his research on the acculturation process of immigrants pointed out:

"Beside religious institutions, it is radio programs that have the most important effect on an immigrant's interpersonal network."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12240             Given these well‑researched needs of immigrants and our experience that an ethnic radio station in essence becomes part of the extended family that immigrants have left behind, we have opted to serve as many third‑language communities as possible without compromising on the quality of programming and the quantity of time allocated to each language group.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12241             Given the existing multilingual radio station configuration in Montreal, it is our firm belief that in approving our application the Commission will therefore gain comfort in the fact that those we propose to serve would not otherwise receive third‑language programming and others in our pool would not otherwise be able to in the near future mount the combination of community and private resources to generate over‑the‑air services in their third language.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12242             Apart from the South‑Asian community, these would be Vietnamese, Indo‑Caribbean, Cambodian, Turkish, Afghan, Lao, Korean, Ghanaian, Hungarian, Czech, Slovak and Bulgarian.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12243             This is consistent with the principles of the Commission's Ethnic Broadcasting Policy.  At the same time such an approval also calls for a nation‑building use of the last Montreal FM frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12244             In a sense, licensing our proposed use of 106.3 FM will fill in the missing link within Montréal's otherwise well‑rounded local programming spectrum.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12245             Ralph...?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12246             DR. AGARD:  Turning to community and business enhancements.  Chair and Commissioners, the licensing of the proposed Montréal radio station in 106.3 FM will introduce to Montréal an historic first time, third language ethnic programming service to 14 multilingual, multicultural communities representing more than 150,000 third language Canadians and significantly enhance services to the Hindu, Urdu and Punjabi speaking and Vietnamese communities who have very little programming available in Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12247             MR. RAY:  More specifically, the proposed station will, among many key considerations, achieve the following:

LISTNUM 1 \l 12248             ‑ provide first‑time locally relevant community programming to 20 ethnocultural communities in their own heritage languages;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12249             ‑ greatly enhance the level of programming diversity and listener choice within the Montréal region by introducing ethnic programming elements that do not exist on local radio;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12250             ‑ invest a minimum of $500,000 in direct and indirect expenditures on the development of Canadian content and promotion and on‑air exposure of emerging local, ethnic Canadian talent, an important new diversity to the ownership ranks of ethnic broadcasting in Montréal;


LISTNUM 1 \l 12251             ‑ train and develop a new generation of ethnic broadcasters to serve the multicultural communities within the region;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12252             ‑ provide Montréal's ethnic business owners with a cost‑effective radio advertising vehicle to target and serve specific third language communities;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12253             ‑ beneficially attract new listeners and increase hours of tuning to local radio without impacting on existing radio stations;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12254             ‑ generate new radio dollars from Montréal's various unserved ethnic business communities with very minimal impact, if any, on existing radio stations; and

LISTNUM 1 \l 12255             ‑ create important new employment opportunities for ethnic broadcasters within the Montréal radio market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12256             Ralph...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12257             DR. AGARD:  Building our broadcasting undertaking.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12258             We have attempted to build a contemporary broadcasting service which also facilitates the implementation of the Commission's new thrust in fulfilling the principles of the Broadcasting Act.  Our goal has been to create a radio station that meaningfully addresses and reflects Montréal's ethnicity and the needs of underserved communities by giving them a voice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12259             In coming to this conclusion, we believe that the design of the proposed station must optimize utilization of the 106.3 MHz frequency and reaching out to serve the 20 unserved and largely underserved communities in 17 different languages within the greater Montréal area.  Our proposal does just that rather than proposing service to any of the already well served language groups.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12260             Mindful of the Commission's ethnic policy on local reflection which emphasizes a primary responsibility of over‑the‑air ethnic stations to serve their local communities, we have designed our programming to do just that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12261             By way of example, on our morning drive show, The Punjabi Voice, on weekdays there will be the news reflecting the happenings within the local, South Asian and other Montréal communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12262             From 8:30 to 9:00 a.m. each weekday morning there will be interviews and open line discussions with an emphasis on Montréal's South Asian community and issues important to them such as social, political and health issues.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12263             Similarly, the afternoon program in Hindustani will feature local news, interviews, local guests like a musician, a politician, a youth, a woman activist or a social worker.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12264             Neeti...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12265             MR. RAY:  Chair and Commissioners, in serving 20 communities we are sensitive to the challenge of balancing quantitative needs of a large unserved ethnic population with the all‑important qualitative considerations.  We are mindful of the Commission's Ethnic Broadcasting Policy and Public Notice CRTC 1999‑117 which states in part:

"A balance may be struck between two priorities serving as many groups as practical and providing high‑quality programming to those groups that are served."


LISTNUM 1 \l 12266             The proposed Montréal radio station shares the Commission's insistence on quality programming, since achieving the highest quality possible has always been our benchmark and the key to our success in producing world‑class multicultural programs in Edmonton and in Toronto.  This quest for high‑quality programming is essential to the proposed radio stations opting for a combination of station‑produced programs and brokered and non‑staff‑produced programs that would operate within the same guidelines as the staff‑produced programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12267             In achieving and maintaining a high quality programming service for each of the 17 language groups, the proposed Montréal radio station has a number of important tools at its disposal, including:

LISTNUM 1 \l 12268             (1) an ongoing commitment to training both in‑house and institutionally of both staff and non‑staff producers;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12269             (2) the allocation of quality time slots to each community regardless of size across the 6:00 a.m. to 12 midnight regulated portion of the broadcast day; and

LISTNUM 1 \l 12270             (e) an independent advisory council composed of representative members from the various ethnic cultural communities will, among other responsibilities, monitor the programming and advise and recommend changes and improvements to further enhance the quality and level of service provided to each language group.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12271             We have structured our proposed broadcasting schedule to ensure that each language group has a minimum of four hours of programming per week of those allocated weekend time slots, and minimum of five hours per week for those groups allocated weekly time slots.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12272             Julia...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12273             MS CIAMARRA:  Chair and Commissioners, from the many consultations that we conducted with third language groups throughout the Montréal region, the message was loud and clear:  they wanted locally relevant programming that reflected the news, activities and events, current affairs, local talent, music and a host of other undertakings that were important to the respective communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12274             In addition to the local community focus, there was a strong desire for news, information and music from their homelands.  The proposed Montréal radio station will give the 17 third language communities what they want: locally relevant, locally produced community‑driven programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12275             MR. RAY:  Supplementing the local programming components will be news and information from the home countries of the ethnic communities as provided by such international broadcast news organizations as Voice of America, the British Broadcasting Corporation, All India Radio, Radio Pakistan, Trinidad And Tobago Broadcasting Corporation, Radio Korea, Voice of Vietnam, Guyana Broadcasting Corporation, et cetera.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12276             Chair and Commissioners, in keeping with the Commission's policy regarding Canadian content development as set out in Public Notice 2006‑158, approval of this application for the proposed Montréal radio station will greatly benefit Canadian ethnic talent within the Montréal region.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12277             As detailed in our application, the proposed station is committed to spend a minimum of $150,000 in direct expenditures and $350,000 in indirect on‑air talent promotion initiatives over the initial seven‑year term of the licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12278             Dr. Agard...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12279             DR. AGARD:  In formulating our Canadian content development proposals we have kept in mind the commercial radio policy 2006 and its Canadian content development assertions.  It was therefore important to keep in mind that the proposed Montréal radio station, if licensed, will become the first ethnic radio service provider for 14 language groups and one that will radically enhance the services to the South Asian and Vietnamese communities.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12280             As such, the proposed radio station's priority is to ensure that its talent development proposals will be utilized in an equitable and inclusive fashion across the region's multicultural population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12281             The direct expenditure initiatives within our Canadian content development proposals will, in our view, achieve that goal.  The proposed a CCD initiatives and the amounts of contribution over the seven years of the term of the licence are as follows:  the station grants program, $66,000; annual ethnic broadcaster scholarship fund, $66,000; and on‑air ethnic talent contest, $18,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12282             While the first year total for the direct expenditure initiatives is $10,000 and the second is $15,000, in subsequent years three through seven the proposed Montréal radio station will increase its direct expenditures on the above projects to $25,000 per annum, bringing the total to $150,000 over the first licence term.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12283             It is our view that the combined total of $500,000 in direct and indirect expenditures over seven years will be a profoundly beneficial impact on the lives and careers of developing ethnic Canadian talent within the Montréal region.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12284             MR. RAY:  Chair and Commissioners, the Montréal radio market demonstrates a clear opportunity for the proposed ethnic radio station on 106.3 FM, because Montréal market revenues of all AM and FM radio stations were at a healthy level in the past few years.  In 2005 the total revenue of all commercial radio stations in Montréal was $138 million, up from $126 million in 2004, and is expected to grow to over $150 million in 2007.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12285             Also, local and national demand for FM airtime continues to grow.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12286             Commissioners, please permit me to summarize.  The proposed Montréal radio station's programming services to 20 multicultural communities in 17 different languages will attract new listeners and increase hours of tuning to FM from targeted and unserved ethnic communities.  This increased listenership and hours tuned to FM will not come at the expense of other Montréal radio stations.  This is because the third language communities targeted by the proposed new Montréal radio station are mostly unserved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12287             Approval of the proposed Montréal radio station's application will result in new radio dollars being attracted to Montréal's FM sector, with minimal impact on existing broadcasters, because our revenue will accrue largely from ethnic businesses interested in effectively reaching those unserved third language communities.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12288             With a revenue of $700,000 in year one, going up to $1 million in year seven, the proposed Montréal radio station's projected dollar share of the Montréal radio market will be at about 0.5 percent in year one and remain below 1 percent in year seven.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12289             We would also like to point out that the proposed Montréal radio station's sources of revenue would accrue as follows:  10 percent from local market radio station; 15 percent from increased budgets of existing radio advertisers; 40 percent from new advertisers; and about 35 percent would be repatriated from other media.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12290             In the final analysis, the long‑term outlook for the economy of the Montréal area is excellent and the proposed FM radio station can realistically set a revenue target of $700,000 in its first year of operation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12291             Licensing this radio station will allow the significant synergies that will flow from our Mississauga radio undertaking licensed in Decision 2007‑117.  Similar to the proposed Montréal radio station, our Mississauga radio station's programming orientation is set to be predominantly South Asian.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12292             Dr. Agard...?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12293             DR. AGARD:  Chair and Commissioners, the proposed Montréal radio station's ethnic broadcasting plan for 106.3 FM fully meets the spirit and intent of the Broadcasting Act and the Commission's Ethnic Broadcasting Policy.  From our perspective, it represents the most comprehensive and productive utilization of the 106.3 FM frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12294             With respect to radio broadcasting, Canada's third language communities and their ever‑growing need for basic radio service is on a collision course with an almost depleted source of usable public broadcasting frequencies.  Hence, those few remaining viable frequencies must be utilized to their optimum advantage in reaching and serving the unserved and the underserved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12295             In seeking the Commission's approval for 106.3 FM, we would underline that its utilization of the frequency would be maximized through the extension of the first ethnic FM service to 14 third language communities and much more enhanced services to three language groups representing 150,000 unserved and underserved third language Canadians living within the greater Montréal area.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12296             The proposed Montréal radio station's majority owners, Mr. and Mrs. Ray, are no strangers to Canadian broadcasting or the Commission.  They are highly experienced career ethnic broadcasters who bring a fresh perspective, new ideas and approaches, new energies and commitment, and an acute sensitivity to Montréal's multicultural reality.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12297             They have the broadly based support of Montréal's diverse ethnocultural communities who, in themselves, are determined to fully optimize this opportunity to gain an ethnic radio voice of their own on the radio waves.  There is little risk in licensing this proposal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12298             MR. RAY:  Together, Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, we respectfully ask for your approval for 106.3 FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12299             Thank you very much for the opportunity, Chair, and I and my colleagues will be ready for your questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12300             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Ray.  Thank you to the Members of your Panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12301             I will direct my questions to you, Mr. Ray, and you may choose to ask one of your colleagues to complement the answer to the question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12302             My first question will be dealing with your programming plans.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12303             I note in reading your application that you are planning up to 121 hours of third language programming, which is about 96 percent of the broadcast week which is devoted to third language programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12304             Doesn't that mean that the five other hours will be either English or in French?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12305             MR. RAY:  The five other hours would be in English, targeting the Indo‑Caribbean community, and that will be on weekdays from Monday to Friday from 8:00 to 9:00 p.m.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12306             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So one hour each day of the week, and that will be in English but aimed at a specific community?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12307             MR. RAY:  It will aim at two specific communities, those who are from ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12308             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The Caribbean.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12309             MR. RAY:  ‑‑ Guyana and those who are from Trinidad.  So two distinct ethnic communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12310             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two distinct communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12311             So does that mean that in the other than 21 hours when you talk about third language, neither one will be French nor English?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12312             MR. RAY:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12313             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12314             Are you ready to accept that as a condition of licence?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12315             MR. RAY:  Yes, I am.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12316             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12317             You have structured an advisory committee.  Could you elaborate on that advisory committee?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12318             I understand that some of the members of your advisory committee are with you today.  They may also wish to tell us how they see their role, but I will ask you to start with the make‑up of the advisory committee:  how the members are selected and how will they be replaced over time and who takes responsibility, what their role is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12319             Are they only giving you advice ‑‑ well, they are advisory, so do they have any specific or direct access to staff?  Could you please elaborate on that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12320             MR. RAY:  Yes, Mr. Chairman.  The Advisory Council, we call it, will be organized in the proposed ethnic radio station in Montréal, if we are fortunate enough to be licensed.  The composition of the Council will consist initially of 12 voting members.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12321             I will take this opportunity also to mention, since you asked me, how it was formed.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12322             The Advisory Council is not formally formed yet, but once we are licensed, we have a very good idea of who would be the members of that Council.  It will consist of the people, different leaders within the various ethnic communities that we have consulted during the period prior to the application last year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12323             For example, I spoke to the President of ‑‑ there is a Lao Organization, the Buddhist Association of Québec, Mr. Thond, and he has agreed to be on the Advisory Council representing the Lao community.  We also have the President of the Vietnamese Women's Association of Canada, Mrs. Hoa Truong who will be a member representing the Vietnamese community, and so on and so forth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12324             There is Cambodian community, Mr. Ong(ph), Turkish Community, Mr. Acom(ph).  The Canadian‑Bulgarian Cultural Centre of Zonika(ph), the President Mrs. Bolitska(ph) will be part of the community and Mrs. Belki(ph) from another organization, and the Czech and Slovak community there is Mrs. Walstinova(ph).  I spoke to her.  I always have problems pronouncing her name, but she was very kind to us and agree to be on the Council.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12325             So that is an overview.  There are more members than that.  I could go on with the names.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12326             The Council will basically be monitoring the radio station and will give us advice as to whether the radio station is operating within their expectations, are meeting the needs of the community, the various communities.  And we do understand that each ethnic community has its own unique needs in various ways.  I could elaborate on that as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12327             For example, I found that a couple of communities, Lao community, the Cambodian, I found that they seem to be much less vocal communities even though they agreed to be on the Council.  We told them we would certainly like you to monitor what is going on and they said that yes, we would love to do that because there are so many problems back home and our information is very difficult to access about what is going on back home.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12328             So these are the kinds of roles that they will be fulfilling, and hopefully with their feedback from the community we will be able to enhance further as time passes by the quality of the programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12329             Any comments you have, Dr. Agard?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12330             DR. AGARD:  I think, Commissioners, the important thing of the Advisory Council would be twofold.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12331             The first, I think we need to mention that its operations will follow the standard advisory committee structure, in that there are no financial interests held by any of its members, that the term is a two‑year term, that it will occur on a rotational basis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12332             I note that when we first developed the membership we spoke of 12 representatives and I guess the concept at that time was to bring a balance to the language groupings, as well as the involvement of the individual communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12333             You note that there is a small discrepancy between the number of language groups and the membership.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12334             Mr. Ray and I have discussed that in view of that, at an appropriate time it can easily be extended to represent any language group that appears on the broadcasting schedule.  I think the initial consultation suggested that since the primary broadcasting languages would belong to a South Asian configuration, then maybe some dual representation might be appropriate.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12335             In the rotating fashion, those of us who work in ethnic communities recognize that some in‑depth consultation is necessary when once you are beginning to identify individuals as representatives of.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12336             And emphasis will also be placed on some youth representation because a significant portion of the broadcasting agenda is music.  It is not simply spoken word.  So in order to be contemporary and to allow for the involvement of emerging artists, we certainly will be looking towards that involvement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12337             MR. RAY:  Just to answer your last question, Mr. Chairman, the Council membership will be normally for a two‑year term on a rotational basis.  The Council members may be recommended by the radio station or the Council Chairman and shall be appointed by the station manager.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12338             The radio station employees may attend Council meetings as required with a view of improving programming services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12339             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You have written bylaws, I can see, because you are reading from a script.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12340             MR. RAY:  This application is written by me, so I do go back to some of the points that we raised so it is entirely consistent with the line that I have taken in writing this application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12341             THE CHAIRPERSON:  How many times a year will the Advisory Counsel meet?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12342             MR. RAY:  Four times a year, every three months.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12343             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Who calls the meeting?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12344             MR. RAY:  The Chairperson of the Advisory Council would call the meeting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12345             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is responsible.  Who makes up the agenda?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12346             MR. RAY:  The Chairperson would make the agenda, would work with the station manager, together with the station manager, the management, to prepare the agenda.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12347             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Does station staff participate at the Advisory Council?  Do they attend, first, and are they sought to participate?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12348             MR. RAY:  Yes.  They will be encouraged to sit there and listen in, in order to get a feel of what the feedback of the communities have been and what advice has been provided by the Advisory Council.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12349             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will change and talk now about your Canadian content development program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12350             Thank you very much for your comments on the Advisory Council.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12351             Basically it is very straightforward. It is three items.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12352             A money commitment towards the Ethnic Broadcasters Scholarship Fund Initiative.  That is already an existing program, the Ethnic Broadcasters Scholarship Fund, or is it something that you would be putting in place?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12353             MR. RAY:  This, on behalf of the proposed new FM radio station we will put in place as a new initiative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12354             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is not something that is already taken care of or managed by the Canadian Association of Ethnic Broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12355             MR. RAY:  No.  That is our initiative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12356             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That will be your own initiative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12357             MR. RAY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12358             THE CHAIRPERSON:  If I read your application well, you will be essentially helping students in journalism.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12359             MR. RAY:  Exactly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12360             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Who are registered at Concordia University.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12361             MR. RAY:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12362             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You also have a grant program.  Can you expand on that grant program?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12363             MR. RAY:  Yes.  We will have the grants program which a considerable amount of thought has gone into it.  The station could most equitably assist emerging talents within these groups by offering the grants program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12364             The amounts have been specified in there which I can reiterate to you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12365             The applicants for the grants program would make the application to an independent jury that would be formulated consisting of Montréal's various ethnic communities, their leaders, the musical talents.  Even though the radio station will initiate this initiative and the jury will evaluate each submission by ethnic artist and performance, the station and its management itself and its ownership itself will remain autonomous of the decisions made by that jury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12366             It is important to underline that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12367             I don't know if that answers your question, but we are very excited about the grants program and its potential to provide direct financial assistance to the broad range of ethnic performers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12368             Dr. Agard...?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12369             DR. AGARD:  I think the grants program is modeled after traditional granting opportunities.  One of the performance evaluators, not tools but indicators in the station manager's portfolio is twofold.  One is really the servicing of the Advisory Council and the other is the administration of the program, the grants program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12370             The responsibility is therefore a managerial responsibility in ensuring that the panel is established, in place and those processes are conducted on an annual basis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12371             THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is not the Advisory Council who makes the ‑‑ at the end of the day it's the jury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12372             MR. RAY:  No.  In fact, essentially the station will establish an independent jury.  It will consist of a cross‑section of member representatives of the performing arts discipline within the Montréal region.  They will meet on a semi‑annual basis and invite ethnic talent to submit applications and we will promote that through the various ethnic communities, their organizations and also on‑air promotion to let the ethnic talents know that we are inviting them to submit applications for financial assistance, whether it is to buy instruments or to cut CDs or whatever else.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12373             THE CHAIRPERSON:  They are mainly music driven?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12374             MR. RAY:  It will be mainly music driven, yes.  It will be mainly music driven, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12375             DR. AGARD:  The reason for that is that we believe that the Concordia scholarships will really attract or develop the spoken word component.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12376             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Component and the other one will drive the music component.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12377             DR. AGARD:  The music, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12378             THE CHAIRPERSON:  About your business plan, Mr. Ray, we note that the revenue you have projected seems to us to be somehow a bit aggressive particularly regarding the local advertising revenues.  I'm sure you have closely looked into them, but obviously we are privy to all the financials of all the ethnic broadcasters of Montréal and other areas in the country.  That has how we can sum up saying that your number seems to be quite aggressive compared with other similar sized operations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12379             Could you tell us how you did arrive at your first year local advertising?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12380             MR. RAY:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12381             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And how confident you are in your numbers, because obviously you have strong commitments towards the CCD and I will be concerned down the road about your ability to meet your CCD commitment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12382             MR. RAY:  Yes, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12383             To answer that, I must point out first, Mr. Chairman, that the sources of revenue as far as the different ethnic programming segments of this proposed station is concerned are divided into two.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12384             The first is the station‑produced programming ‑‑ that would be predominantly South Asian ‑‑ would generate a total of $440,000 in year one.  The balance of the $260,000 would come from the other brokered programs which would be in the non‑South Asian language, or I would say that non‑station produced languages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12385             Now, let's first look at the $440,000 from the largest group, that is the South Asian community.  There are a few things that we kept in mind.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12386             First of all, we know from having of course read the other applications that even a sideband, an SCMO in Montréal, has no problem generating about $220,000 or $225,000 in one year.  That is kind of a closed‑circuit radio.  An over‑the‑air radio would have a much greater reach, a much wider reach, including in the cars.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12387             The most lucrative time of an over‑the‑air radio station is during the morning and afternoon drive time.  That is something that an SCMO cannot take advantage of.  That is one element that brings the projected revenue so high.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12388             The other is, the population of the South Asian community in Montréal, a vibrant community, with only one and a half hours, that is 90 minutes of programming, currently available on CFMB, late in the night on Friday half an hour, and late in the night, near midnight, for one hour on Saturday night.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12389             It is an untapped business community and the size of that community in 2001 was approximately 61,000, according to the 2001 Census.  In the addendum I have provided the Census data from Stats Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12390             If we look at another market as a comparison, Vancouver has approximately twice the population of the South Asian community that we see in Montréal.  The population there is about 122,000 to 125,000, if I remember correctly from 2001.  In Vancouver, two radio stations two years ago were licensed simultaneously to serve predominantly the South Asian community of 125,000 people.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12391             The number of businesses in Vancouver is approximately twice within the South Asian community of that of Montréal.  There are approximately, in our estimation, 700 to 900 businesses within the Montréal South Asian community, including real estate agents, financial services, immigration consultants, dentists, and not only the restaurants and grocery stores and fashion stores, jewellery stores.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12392             The $440,000 per year from the Montréal's affluent business community is therefore easily achievable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12393             I would go as far as to say that we are confident that this number could be conservative, and we are going to use the resources of the South Asian revenue if necessary to, if I could put it that way, subsidize some of the very small community groups that we propose to serve that may on their own not be able to have either programming or a radio station of their own.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12394             Dr. Agard...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12395             DR. AGARD:  Chair, in terms of third language, visible minority or racial minority communities and business sectors, it has traditionally been difficult to quantify in advance what that potentially is.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12396             However, based on other licences that have been granted and have survived in highly racialized minority communities, we feel confident that there are untapped resources in those communities.  The South Asian community is a very business‑oriented community and this proposal is really based on precedents in other broadcasting entities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12397             We are relying heavily, as much as 40 percent, on new business, and another 35 percent of that revenue would come from repatriating advertising, particularly from the print media in Montréal where there is a healthy community‑based newsprint, but news organization.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12398             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Agard, you just touched my secondary question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12399             How confident are you?  Have you talked to the business community as to how attracted they are by a radio service like yours?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12400             MR. RAY:  Yes.  I'm glad you asked that question because it brings to light what we found.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12401             Something to keep in mind is also that in our experience, what I have watched over the last 27 years of my experience in radio ‑‑ and if I could just take one minute to give that background to help clarify my next statement ‑‑ in 1979, when I was involved in the licensing process of CKER radio in Edmonton and the radio station went on air, the challenge that we had was the fact that it was the first multicultural radio station in Edmonton and all the advertisers, from of course the various ethnic communities, the ethnic advertisers, were all inexperienced.  They had no idea what advertising on radio would be like.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12402             In Montréal, fortunately, the main group, the South Asian market, is quite experienced in advertising on radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12403             Now, having said that, it might come to mind that I said there is no programming available on the radio.  Well, there is no over‑the‑air programming available in Montréal except 90 minutes per week, but they have the experience of advertising on the sidebands in Montréal and also in another radio program that was there until a few years ago.  I think it was five hours a week on CFMB.  That program went off the air quite a few years ago actually.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12404             I lived in Montréal for some time in the late 1970s and the program was on then and also in the 1980s.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12405             But the experience that the South Asian business community has will help us a lot.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12406             When I spoke to some of the groups, whether jewellers or real estate agents, restaurants, fashion stores, they were all very excited about the fact that we could give them the vehicle to advertise on over‑the‑air radio that they could access their clients during drive time.  They were very excited about that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12407             To answer your question, to make a long story short, yes, I have a pretty good feel of what the business community would be able to offer to the proposed FM radio station in Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12408             THE CHAIRPERSON:  In the eventuality that you don't meet your expected revenue ‑‑ the economics is more problematic than the one you just described and one that you are expecting ‑‑ you have made some commitments regarding the Canadian Content Development program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12409             How would you deal with your commitments?  Will you make your payment in accordance with the plan that you have given to us or will you obviously contemplate other alternatives?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12410             MR. RAY:  Yes.  To answer your question, I was listening to you and I was also looking for the page where I have the statement of changes in cash flow of the station.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12411             I would answer that in the affirmative by saying that if we do not meet the target, say during the first, second, third or whatever years, I would point out that with the investment of $600,000 in year one, cash at the end of the year is $472,000 left over.  So that is quite a bit more than sufficient to cover any shortfall and we would have no problem fulfilling our obligations vis‑à‑vis the CCD.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12412             As we go on from the first to the seventh year in the projected financial position, we are in very healthy shape.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12413             Once again to say concretely, there is going to be absolutely no problem with this investment to meet those obligations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12414             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Ray.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12415             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Mr. Ray, you compared the South Asian populations, which is the financial locomotive at least in the first years for your business.  You compared the populations of Vancouver and Montréal, and you said Vancouver is roughly twice as much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12416             Do you know ‑‑ and it is a very unfair question and if you can't answer it, it is perfectly normal.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12417             But would you know what percentage of the Vancouver South Asian population is Punjabi in origin?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12418             MR. RAY:  If you can give me a couple of minutes, I have the numbers with me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12419             But to give you the answer, yes, the majority ‑‑ you said Punjabi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12420             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  I said Punjabi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12421             MR. RAY:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12422             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Do you know where I'm going?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12423             MR. RAY:  Yes, I think I know where you are going.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12424             With the Punjabi, there are two Punjabi.  Punjabi is the language, so there are two communities, the Sikhs in the Hindus.  The majority there would be Punjabi speaking.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12425             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  But it turns out even the Hindu Punjabis are a hell of a lot richer than anybody else.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12426             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  I lived for nearly four years in India and I learned that India is not a citizenship, it is a world in itself.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12427             The only reason I'm asking you that is that to my sense ‑‑ purely anecdotal, I lived in Montréal for most of my life, but I spent some time in Vancouver, too ‑‑ that the percentage of Punjabis in Montréal, even in half the South Asian community, would be far lower than it is in Vancouver.  Is that fair?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12428             MR. RAY:  The Punjabi population in Montréal in proportion would still be the largest.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12429             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  It would be the largest?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12430             MR. RAY:  Yes, it would be the largest.  Next to that would be the non‑Punjabis like the Tamils and the Bengali‑speaking who are about ‑‑ Bengali speaking, surprisingly when you see the numbers, is about 12,000 including those who are Bengali speaking from India and Bengali speaking from Bangladesh.  It is exactly the same language.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12431             Then the Tamil speaking, approximately 8,500.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12432             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  I will tell you where I'm going with it just for what it's worth, and you may or may not buy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12433             It seems to me that the Montréal South Asian community is more professional and less business oriented than the Vancouver South Asian community.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12434             If you tell me I'm wrong or you tell me you are banking on the fact that I am wrong, fine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12435             You know, professionals don't advertise.  University professors, doctors don't advertise.  Waiters in Indian restaurants don't advertise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12436             I'm just fishing a little to see whether you have considered these ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12437             MR. RAY:  Before I let Dr. Agard further elaborate on that, I will tell you something else very interesting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12438             The professionals who do not advertise, and the doctors who don't advertise, they do eat Indian food and wear Indian clothes and they do travel a lot to India and Pakistan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12439             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  They are consumers.  They are consumers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12440             MR. RAY:  They are big consumers and you need many establishments to fulfil their needs.  For example, the number of restaurants in Montréal would not be much less, not significantly less than in Vancouver.  Maybe a bit less in proportion, I'm not sure, but I guess pretty close.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12441             But the number of jewellers, the number of those who sell Indian clothes, saris and the Punjabi suits, would be the same in proportion.  The mediation consultants would be the same in proportion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12442             So to answer your question, that is not entirely right but it is true that Montréal population is more professional and the Vancouver South Asian population is ‑‑ well, it is a combination of, you know, highly educated professionals as well as maybe those who are in different trades.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12443             DR. AGARD:  I don't think I have much to add to Mr. Ray's comment, except to note that if we follow the lead of the print media in the language community, a large number of service providers advertise because the metropolis is so large that they do need to have a vehicle to bring those, not necessarily audiences but consumers directly to their door.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12444             So I think that is a unique configuration in racial minorities in language markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12445             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12446             As you noted, in Montréal there is already an SCMO that is providing South Asian programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12447             MR. RAY:  I'm sorry, I lost you on the last few words.  Can you kindly ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 12448             THE CHAIRPERSON:  There is an SCMO operator that is currently broadcasting towards the South Asian population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12449             How would your proposed service impact on Radio Humsafar?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12450             MR. RAY:  How would the proposed radio station, if licensed, have an impact on the SCMOs?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12451             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, exactly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12452             MR. RAY:  It would have some impact on the SCMO, but I would explain why it will not have a significant impact, not so significant that they would not remain viable.  It is also from watching SCMOs elsewhere in Canada, including Toronto and Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12453             SCMO is more like a subscription service and you have to sell the radio sets to the community that you serve.  Many thousand sets, I presume, have been sold to consumers who would continue to listen to them, number one, during times that they are not able to listen to South Asian programming; so 8 o'clock onward, because 8 to 9 o'clock we do have programming Monday to Friday that is catering to the Indo‑Caribbean community who look like us, they eat the same food, they dress like us and they sing the same songs.  So the South Asians would be able to relate very well to that programming segment because most of the music is also from Bollywood.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12454             But from that point on to the morning we do not have South Asian programming, so the only way that the Montréal South Asian community would be able to access some South Asian programming would be through the SCMO.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12455             As a result, they would become complementary to us, or we would become complementary to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12456             All weekend we do not have any South Asian programming proposed and therefore the SCMO would thrive during the weekends.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12457             We have to settle with the idea that we would not be able to get across to the South Asian community during the weekend.  SCMO would be the only way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12458             The other thing is that in the Montréal market where there are a number of radio stations over the air providing South Asian programming and still there are right now four Tamil SCMOs and one fulltime Punjabi language SCMO.  The Punjabi has been doing extremely well.  Two of the Tamil SCMOs, I know the three parties well.  The two Tamil SCMOs are also doing very well.  I know it is a very large market, but at the same time not one, but almost like five SCMOs going on at the same time and surviving.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12459             The same thing in Vancouver:  two fulltime over‑the‑air radio stations, predominantly South Asian.  In addition to that, there are two fulltime, 24‑hour over‑the‑air radio stations on the U.S. side of the border, on 1400 and 1650 AM, that 24 hours they are broadcasting to Vancouver.  The studios are in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12460             So if so many undertakings can survive together and coexist, then I would say that the SCMO in Montréal is going to be viable and there are all the reasons I gave to believe that it would be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12461             DR. AGARD:  Chair and Commissioners, from a broader policy perspective, having worked with the Toronto SCMOs and on‑air licensing of an FM recently and continuing to observe that market in particular, from a broad policy perspective, I think that what happens is that from the Commission's perspective the greater competition brings a greater quality of programming.  So that's one asset.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12462             The other is that I really look at it as the expanding of the availability of diverse programming within that particular marketplace.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12463             They are not necessarily ‑‑ and Mr. Ray and I have discussed this; that really the introduction makes available a greater diversity.  So you could tune to your radio in the car and if you want a certain directed programming you could become a subscriber, just like cablevision, for example.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12464             MR. RAY:  Beyond that, also listener choice will be available to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12465             THE CHAIRPERSON:  As you know, they are also applicants for AM frequencies to provide third language service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12466             Would your service and the AM service make it in the Montréal market with the ethnic community that is available?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12467             MR. RAY:  To further understand you clearly, you mean if two were ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12468             THE CHAIRPERSON:  If the Commission were to grant an AM licence at the same time as your proposed service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12469             MR. RAY:  If you would permit me to answer it in the following manner, Mr. Chairman, maybe I should say which one would have the least impact on us and which one would have the most impact on us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12470             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12471             MR. RAY:  If I have your permission to talk about both AM and FM, it will answer your question but it will also give an idea ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 12472             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I understand that you will be coming back as intervenors, so I'm not opening a door to allow you to make an intervention, but only for the record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12473             MR. RAY:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12474             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Let's take the question in a positive manner and say:  Could on AM and FM service, owned and operated by two different operators, survive in the South Asian community in the Montréal market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12475             MR. RAY:  If the answer had to be in yes and no, the answer would be yes, both would be able to survive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12476             But if you would permit me to also elaborate, the other two ethnic AM ‑‑ well, one of them, Radio Humsafar, which is also a very successful SCMO in Montréal, their entire programming would be a duplication of what we also are going to provide if we are licensed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12477             The other applicant, SSTV, the vast majority of its programming also would be duplication of our programming.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12478             Therefore, if a choice had to be made, then I would say that these two proposals would have much greater impact on us than, for example, CHCR, which Hellenic will have no impact on us because the groups they want to serve are not the same, except a very small amount, you know, four hours of South Asian and I guess a couple of hours of Vietnamese they are proposing.  We can always sit down with them and make sure that there is no scheduling conflict.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12479             So they will have the least impact on us, but the other two would have more impact.  But then, yes, we can survive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12480             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.  That suffices at this stage of the proceeding.  I will come back to programming because staff came to see me saying that I skipped a page.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12481             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You will be devoting 14 hours a week toward news and weather, traffic and sports.  Have you broken it down between each of the components and how local it would be versus national and international?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12482             MR. RAY:  Talking of the news I guess first ‑‑ I think we are talking about the news, 14 hours of news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12483             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12484             MR. RAY:  All right.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12485             The news, we have proposed ‑‑ and this from our previous experience in Toronto as well as in Edmonton ‑‑ that approximately one‑third would be local news, one‑third national and one‑third international, because ethnic communities, each one has a homeland that they have come from.  So we would divide that roughly one‑third, one‑third and one‑third.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12486             THE CHAIRPERSON:  How will you gather, say, the local portion of the news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12487             MR. RAY:  We would provide the tools to the producers by way of not only the Internet, but also I must mention that we do propose to invite the journalism students from Concordia to report to us, also local secondary schools.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12488             But that's not the primary source.  It's because it came to my mind and before I forget it, I might as well put it on record that we would encourage them to report to us what is happening in the community, what is happening in the youth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12489             But also our staffing, we have allocated two news staff during the station‑produced programming Monday to Friday: one part‑time in the morning and one part‑time in the evening, whose only job would be to gather news, local news, and of course national BN, translated BN and get direct feeds from the BBC.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12490             They would also be encouraged, whenever possible, if there is a major event happening, and if there is no conflict with their schedule that they are supposed to be on air in the morning and the evening, to attend those, or to report from a remote location where the event is taking place.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12491             So the emphasis on local programming, local weather, local traffic, local events would be very prominent on our news, both morning, evening and day time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12492             DR. AGARD:  As well, the brokered programming part of that agreement requires ten minutes of news directed at those particular communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12493             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Those brokered programs are locally produced.  They are not coming from overseas or Toronto or Vancouver or Edmonton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12494             MR. RAY:  They are all going to be locally produced and all the non‑staff producers, the brokered programming, would in fact not only be producing them locally but also the news portion and the programming, they will be encouraged ‑‑ in fact, they will be required to follow the same guidelines as staff producers, including if we have seminars to enhance programming quality.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12495             I'm a trainer myself and I do workshops and I teach various things to ethnic communities, how to be effective broadcasters, voice modulation, or whatever else, news reading.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12496             We would require them to attend these workshops and seminars.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12497             If I remember correctly, I think you asked me to break down the news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12498             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, you said a third, a third, a third, 14 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12499             MR. RAY:  And I also have the breakdown as to which programming will have how much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12500             But a total of 14 hours, approximately.  To be exact, it's 14 hours and 15 minutes per week of news programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12501             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Where will your brokers go to produce their programs?  At your station?  Or are they equipped?  Do you know them now?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12502             MR. RAY:  Some of them, yes.  But there are no contracts in place.  It would be premature to do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12503             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12504             MR. RAY:  To answer your question as to where they will produce, there are two options that they would have.  If I remember correctly, I have devoted a paragraph in the supplementary brief to the effect that they would have full access to the radio station's production facility, as well as the radio station's music library.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12505             They would be encouraged to produce their programs within the radio station premises.  If they have the facility at their own place, if they can afford it, well, that will be no problem of course.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12506             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Back to your own local programming, if my memory serves me well in reading your brief, everything seems to be taped or pre‑produced before going on air.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12507             Am I right?  Did I understand your application right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12508             So the local live portion seems to be always prerecorded.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12509             MR. RAY:  In fact, the answer would be no.  There is only one segment ‑‑ which I'm not sure if you are going to ask me that question later and I'm jumping the gun.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12510             But about what proportion of our total programming will be pretaped or voicetracked, it will be all live‑to‑air except one segment during the weekday.  In the morning Punjabi program from 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m. and there's an Urdu program from 10:00 a.m. to 12:00 noon on weekdays catering to the Pakistani community.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12511             The news person in the morning would be fluently bilingual in Punjabi and Hindustani, as most of those who have migrated from northwest India are; the western part of Pakistan and the eastern end of India, the Punjab, and there is a border in between.  They are fluently bilingual in Punjabi.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12512             So the news person in the morning would produce the Punjabi programming but he would also produce and voicetrack the Urdu news, which will be broadcast at 11:00 a.m., a ten‑minute news ‑‑ it is probably 11:00 a.m.  So there is that one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12513             And in the afternoon, there will be possibly a voicetracked news item, early in the afternoon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12514             In addition to that, there is going to be no other pretaped program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12515             For example, if there is an interview, if a member of the Montreal Board of Education or Montreal City Police or Elections Canada or maybe the Health Department, if somebody is being interviewed, it will not be pretaped.  It will be all live‑to‑air, an interview with an artist or a social worker.  It will all be live‑to‑air.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12516             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You have just been granted a licence for Mississauga.  Will you have synergies with your new operation?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12517             MR. RAY:  Absolutely there will be ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12518             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And of which type?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12519             MR. RAY:  As you know, the Mississauga radio station is set to be predominantly South Asian.  Let me take the musical part of it first.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12520             Toronto perhaps is the biggest resource we have in Toronto of local talents.  That is one area that we would be able to send a lot of the Canadian content that is locally produced to Montreal.  So that is one area where our Mississauga undertaking would greatly help the Canadian content of the Montreal station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12521             The other part, I'm thinking that there could be some programming that could be exclusively produced for the Montreal radio station, to be broadcast only on the Montreal radio station.  But because the resources of on‑air talent is also abundant in Toronto ‑‑ I used to have a radio program on a radio station which was 60 hours a week.  Unfortunately, the ownership changed and the new owners didn't want any ethnic programming and we had to go off the air.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12522             I had 21 professional broadcasters who were working for us.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12523             To make a long story short, there is huge resource ‑‑ not that I'm going to bring them to Montreal and do all my Montreal programming.  It will be all locally produced.  There are good resources available in Montreal also available that we will be able to use.  We can polish them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12524             But the synergies would include that and also the experience that we would have from our Mississauga undertaking, we do expect to put it on air before the Montreal if we are fortunate enough to be blessed with a licence here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12525             Dr. Agard, you can probably add to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12526             DR. AGARD:  I always like to go to broad policy‑type descriptors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12527             Commissioners, I know that you should recognize that the Mississauga approval only came rather recently so we are still in the process of understanding that and the implications of another licensed FM of the same nature.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12528             There are a few things I think that would emerge should we be successful with this frequency.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12529             One is the obvious economies of scale.  One should not avoid recognizing that; managerial.  Another one of particular interest is the service providers in terms of news and contractual arrangements, for example, with Voice of America, Radio India, et cetera, would certainly be beneficial.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12530             I think we also attempted to evaluate the impact on emerging Canadian content and emerging Canadian talent; that there would be some synergies there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12531             As well, the program development in terms of recognizing that facilities would involve the development of programs specific to the Montréal initiative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12532             Lastly I think from a national broadcasting perspective, the synergies with respect to third language broadcasting specific to the South Asian communities, we have that intercultural community development access that both stations can in fact engage in and carry, simultaneous casting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12533             I know that we have discussed the fact that Montréal has unique.  The station has to have its local unique programming, and so the synergies are in terms of ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12534             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But in most instances in the groups it is the back office where the synergies are taking place.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12535             DR. AGARD:  Correct.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12536             THE CHAIRPERSON:  There is only one area for accounting and one area for traffic and one area ‑‑ so that is something you didn't allude to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12537             DR. AGARD:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12538             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But as a matter of principle it has been on your radar screen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12539             DR. AGARD:  Radar, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12540             MR. RAY:  In fact, to just round that off, the Montréal South Asian community ‑‑ of course the station if licensed would be predominantly catering to the various communities within the South Asian community, and the same community, the South Asian community in Toronto has a relationship as well.  There is a lot of synergy flowing back and forth between Toronto and Montréal within the South Asian community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12541             The communication between the two would be further enhanced and it would be very interesting and beneficial to the two communities when sometimes we can have a link and have say an open line show with a 1‑800 number with both stations going simultaneously on air and talking to each other.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12542             That would be another synergy that would further enhance the quality of the programming and benefit the community.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12543             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Ray, we need to clarify some issues regarding the control of your proposed station.  There seems to be some contradiction in the documents that have been filed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12544             Obviously you are the majority shareholder and have legal control of 51 percent of the shares of the company, but in your shareholder agreement we read that the Board of Directors of the proposed organization will hold the legal control of the company.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12545             We need to clarify who really has the legal control.  Is that the members of the board through their shareholder agreement or is it you as the majority owner of 51 percent of the shares?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12546             MR. RAY:  The control of the licence ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12547             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The ultimate control.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12548             MR. RAY:  The ultimate control of the licence will be with Neeti P. Ray.  That is myself.  When we refer to the Board of Directors, as far as the policies are concerned of the station, whether it is programming and some other aspects of the station, but as far as the licence is concerned, as far as fulfilling the conditions of the licence is concerned, the local programming, those would lie ‑‑ I will be, Neeti P. Ray will be ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12549             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The ultimate control, as the ultimate control of the corporation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12550             MR. RAY:  Will be with Neeti P. Ray.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12551             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think your shareholder agreement is only a proposed shareholder agreement.  Before making it the final document, if you are granted a licence, would you clear that up so that it is clearly stated that you have the ultimate control of the corporation?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12552             MR. RAY:  Absolutely, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12553             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12554             Now I have my technical questions and I appreciate that your engineer was here yesterday.  I appreciate very much that Mr. Cahn was here and I understand that he has stayed and he also led me to believe that he had a doctor's appointment this morning.  So I appreciate the attendance of Mr. Moltner on your behalf to help out with the more technical questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12555             My questions are exactly the same for everybody so he already has a bit of an idea of what they are going to be.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12556             Obviously AVR is currently operating out of a temporary transmission site and they are expected to move to a more permanent site.  We don't know, at least as of today, which site it is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12557             I'm looking at your plan.  You have identified the Montréal Stock Exchange Building, because you have a letter from McGill Laurentian in your file that you are planning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12558             In the eventuality that AVR goes to the same location, what will be the impact on your service?  Then we will look at it if they go somewhere else.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12559             MR. RAY:  Before Jim answers the technical side of that, of course we do understand that our undertaking is predicated technically an AVR and we have to go where AVR goes.  We understand that their proposal, as submitted to Industry Canada with their application, was based on the Stock Exchange Tower and that is where we propose to put our antenna, presuming that AVR would do the same.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12560             But having said that, of course we have to be with them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12561             Maybe I will like Jim Moltner further elaborate on that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12562             MR. MOLTNER:  Mr. Chairman, perhaps I could clarify.  I don't want to take away your ability to ask the same question over and over, but AVR, as the incumbent, provided a blanket agreement to allow collocated second adjacents, and that agreement provided that AVR would have the right to choose the site and the incoming second adjacent would be required to collocate with them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12563             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So the plan that has been prepared by Mr. Cahn takes that into consideration and makes the assumption that it will be the Montréal Stock Exchange Building?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12564             MR. MOLTNER:  It does, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12565             THE CHAIRPERSON:  It does.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12566             Obviously there are some potential interference issues of being a collocator and they may have some bearing on the ability for the listeners, say in the Montréal downtown area, to have reception problems.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12567             How have you figured that out by collocating?  Will it be a problem, a significant problem for the service that Mr. Ray wants to provide?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12568             MR. MOLTNER:  In terms of the second adjacent?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12569             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12570             MR. MOLTNER:  Well, I think I would like to dispel that as well.  There is no evidence that indicates that even the cheapest receivers have any problem receiving second adjacents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12571             In fact, the most recent test data, which I believe it comes from Industry Canada, from their second adjacent testing in the laboratory a few years ago, indicates that even the cheapest receivers should have absolutely no problem with second adjacent signals as long as those signals are comparable in level.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12572             In general, cheap receivers have a problem with adjacent signals, whether they be second adjacent or third adjacent or 14th adjacent, when one of the signals is much stronger than the other signal.  That is not the case here.  Both signals will be exactly equal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12573             To summarize, we don't anticipate any interference.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12574             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You don't anticipate any interference.  But if there was to be interference, have you looked into the type of solutions that you will have to undertake to diminish the level of interference?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12575             One of the ways usually engineers propose is to increase power, but I think I understand you both will be going at the maximum authorized power for the frequencies that you would be allocated.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12576             MR. MOLTNER:  That's correct.  Well, potential interference is not just a second adjacent issue.  It also happens with third adjacent and fourth adjacent, which the Commission licenses routinely and Industry Canada authorizes routinely and people deal with it.  They either replace the affected radios with a better radio or in extreme cases they move sites to less populated areas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12577             It's not just a second adjacent issue and it's not doom and gloom and life goes on.  That's why we have our radio system in the major markets in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12578             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, my last question is regarding IBOC implementation.  If you are collocating at the same location, will you be able to implement IBOC if the standard was authorized for Canada?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12579             MR. MOLTNER:  Well, I would like to say first of all that IBOC has not been adopted for Canada.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12580             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But there are some strong indications ‑‑ at least the Commission sent a message saying that we will undertake to look at any application that will propose IBOC as long as Industry Canada accepts the standard.  It is our understanding that someone somewhere at Industry Canada is currently working on it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12581             MR. MOLTNER:  I appreciate that, but there are also strong indications, particularly from the CBC, that IBOC may not work in the Canadian broadcasting environment.  So I guess my point is, would I today exclude a perfectly viable frequency in the market such as Montréal for a future technology which may never happen?  That doesn't make sense to me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12582             But having said that, from the test results I have seen, predominantly the CBC's IBOC testing of last summer I believe, there is no reason to believe that second adjacent stations either/or both running IBOC cannot coexist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12583             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cram has a question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12584             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12585             Mr. Ray, it sounds like your expenses would now be adjusted as a consequence of the synergies you were thinking of having with the Mississauga station, and I'm wondering if you could just file revised expenses?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12586             DR. AGARD:  Commissioner, I would assume that they would have to be very preliminary.  I don't know if that adds ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 12587             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Most projections are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12588             DR. AGARD:  I would say yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12589             MR. RAY:  Yes, we would be able to do that, but if you don't mind, just further clarify exactly what you are looking for.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12590             Are you looking for the expenses resulting as a result of implementing the synergies?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12591             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  I mean, your expenses now in this application, because I think you said today that you would have significant synergies and you have talked about them.  So clearly we want to look at what your expenses would be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12592             MR. RAY:  Yes.  How much time would I have to do that, just so that I can ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12593             THE CHAIRPERSON:  A very short period of time.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12594             MS LAGACÉ:  Tomorrow we will start with Phase III, I think most probably, so if you could file this with the Commission ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12595             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Tomorrow morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12596             MS LAGACÉ:  ‑‑ tomorrow morning at the latest.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12597             MR. RAY:  All right.  Maybe I will discuss with you what format you wanted in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12598             In fact, do you want me to take the same pages and redo them from the methodology pages, or something like that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12599             MS LAGACÉ:  I think that would be a good method to provide that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12600             MR. RAY:  All right, no problem at all.  We will do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12601             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12602             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12603             Legal counsel...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12604             MR. RAY:  If I have your permission, and for the sake of the staff so they don't run into any problems, would I have the permission to point out two typographical mistakes in the application that may help in case they detect those mistakes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12605             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think the record is complete.  Obviously we are trying not to ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12606             MR. RAY:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12607             THE CHAIRPERSON:  When we quote, something that we seldom do anyhow, we quote generally speaking from the transcript rather than from the application.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12608             MR. RAY:  Of course, yes.  It relates to the language that we described in the description and if you find any confusion as to "Oh, this language was not proposed but in that particular place it is", it is because it is a typographical mistake.  That is all I will say.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12609             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Ray, ladies, Mr. Agard, Mr. Moltner, thank you very much for your presentation this morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12610             We will take a 15‑minute break, so we will be back at 10:45 with the next application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12611             MR. RAY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to staff.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1027 / Suspension à 1027

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1051 / Reprise à 1051

LISTNUM 1 \l 12612             LE PRÉSIDENT : Madame la secrétaire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12613             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with item 16 on the agenda, which is an application by International Harvesters for Christ Evangelistic Association Inc. for a licence to operate a French language (51%) and English‑language (49%) FM commercial specialty (religious) radio programming undertaking in Montreal.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12614             The new station would operate on frequency 106.3 MHz (channel 292A) with an average effective radiated power of 320 watts (maximum effective radiated power of 1,200 watts/antenna height of 209 metres).

LISTNUM 1 \l 12615             Appearing for the applicant is Reverend Jeff Lutes who will introduce his colleagues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12616             You will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation.  Thank you.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 12617             REV. LUTES:  Mr. Chairman, Commissioner French, Commissioner Cram, I would like to introduce to you my colleague Rob Adams.  He is the founder of Open Hand Productions.  He himself is a Christian artist, composer, broadcaster, and Open Hand Productions promotes local Quebec artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12618             Jim Moltner is with us.  He is our engineer with Technics Ltd.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12619             Unable to appear before you today is Jo Casse(ph).  He is a retired Montreal businessman visiting Europe presently.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12620             Luc Gingras is a Quebec music recording artist and he is in Alberta for television taping.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12621             Application No. 2006‑1224‑3.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12622             The outline for our presentation:

LISTNUM 1 \l 12623             ‑ slides 1‑2, the introduction;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12624             ‑ slides 3‑6, vision;


LISTNUM 1 \l 12625             ‑ slides 7‑13, current situation;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12626             ‑ problems, slides 14 20;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12627             ‑ slides 21‑30, the proposed solution;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12628             ‑ 31 44, the benefits;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12629             ‑ 45‑48, the conclusion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12630             M. ADAMS : Inspiration Montréal : la vision.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12631             REV. LUTES:  Granting this licence will:

LISTNUM 1 \l 12632             M. ADAMS :

LISTNUM 1 \l 12633             ‑ aider à créer une diversité de voix;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12634             ‑ desservir une portion importante d'auditeurs à Montréal dont la préférence musicale n'est pas comblée;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12635             ‑ permettre à Montréal d'avoir ce que d'autres villes au Canada ont déjà;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12636             ‑ progresser selon la croissance de l'industrie musicale;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12637             ‑ améliorer la société et privilégier les familles;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12638             ‑ aider les néo‑Canadiens à développer un sentiment d'appartenance;


LISTNUM 1 \l 12639             ‑ encourager le développement de l'industrie d'enregistrement de la musique Gospel et la programmation québécoise;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12640             ‑ plus que tout, inspirer Montréal avec une musique rafraîchissante et pro‑famille.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12641             Inspiration 106.3 : un reflet de Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12642             REV. LUTES:  Vision.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12643             The vision is for a balanced radio station that will inspire religious development as it promotes Quebec artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12644             Inspiration Montréal:  Current situation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12645             New Canadian music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12646             The Canadian Gospel Music Recording industry is growing strongly, thanks in large measure to the CRTC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12647             M. ADAMS : La musique Gospel augmente en popularité.  Les ventes ont augmenté de 80 pour cent durant la dernière décennie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12648             REV. LUTES:  There is an overall decline in music industry sales except Christian music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12649             M. ADAMS : Plus de 30 stations religieuses au Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12650             REV. LUTES:  Montreal needs a new station that serves the wider religious community.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12651             Family‑friendly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12652             Inspiration 106.3 will answer the growing call for family‑friendly radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12653             Now is the time for Inspiration 106.3 to meet this need.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12654             M. ADAMS : Un soutien financier solide.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12655             REV. LUTES:  Harvesters has years of experience operating a station in a bilingual setting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12656             M. ADAMS : Inspiration Montréal : Problèmes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12657             Radiodiffusion américaine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12658             Les Canadiens ne devraient pas avoir à dépendre uniquement sur les États‑Unis pour leur besoin en matière de programmation religieuse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12659             Inspiration 106.3 offrira à Montréal une alternative canadienne et une alternative québécoise diffusée 24 heures par jour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12660             Format manquant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12661             On peut se demander pourquoi on retrouve pratiquement tous les formats sur le cadran de syntonisation, à l'exception d'une station chrétienne bilingue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12662             REV. LUTES:  Vulgar and distasteful.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12663             Inspiration 106.3 will be a clean influence.  The lyrics of some songs in jock‑talk is becoming increasingly vulgar in mainstream radio.  The public is finding this distasteful.  Listening time increases to religious radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12664             The Montreal market is well able to support a religious FM radio station.  A new religious FM radio station will have little to no financial impact on the existing stations as it will draw on financial sources that are not in competition with existing stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12665             M. ADAMS : Format non doublé.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12666             Ceci ne sera pas un duplicata de Radio Ville‑Marie.  Nous diffuserons la musique pertinente retrouvée couramment sur le palmarès.  Nous comblerons les besoins religieux des personnes au‑delà de la foi catholique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12667             Les deux langues officielles.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12668             La raison de la requête de 51 pour cent de contenu français et 49 pour cent de contenu anglais respecte la disponibilité actuelle des programmations musicales et religieuses, afin de permettre le développement ultérieur de la programmation radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12669             REV. LUTES:  Support.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12670             We believe an AM station generally serves a different demographic than an FM, and hence, our application is not mutually exclusive to that of M. André Joly.  We are in full support of his application and applaud his efforts to serve a primarily French religious format.  We feel that in no way would his proposed station negatively affect ours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12671             Our application is broader in scope in that we are recognizing the diverse needs of the entire religious community to be served in both official languages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12672             Balanced programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12673             We are in complete agreement with the Religious Broadcasting Policy as set out in Public Notice CRTC 1993‑78.  Our loggers are diligently maintained.  We are very strict in ensuring that anyone on the radio is fully aware of this policy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12674             We will not restrict other religions from having access.  With kind, courteous guidance, we will make this service available to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12675             M. ADAMS : Solidité de plan d'affaires.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12676             Nous possédons une expérience professionnelle, montrée dans le maintien de programmation religieuse de haute qualité dans le cadre de paramètres financiers.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12677             Il y a plusieurs exemples de stations religieuses à travers le Canada qui ont des bases financières solides : à titre d'exemple, CHRI à Ottawa et Life 100.3 à Barrie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12678             Notre réseau comprend les stations qui ont ce même niveau de succès.  CMC Canada fournit de la musique actuelle avec une emphase particulière sur les chanteurs canadiens.  Notre style de programmation cadre bien avec un grand centre métropolitain comme Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12679             Autonomie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12680             Notre deuxième application diffère de la première en ce que nous démontrons que ceci est à la base un effort montréalais qui reflète la diversité des besoins des auditeurs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12681             Cette application établit l'autonomie du groupe montréalais dans la direction de sa propre station, tout en bénéficiant du fait d'être membre d'une plus grande famille.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12682             Fondamentalement, nous agissons en tant que facilitateur afin de permettre aux Montréalais d'avoir leur propre station.  Nous nous voyons comme desservant Montréal en permettant à la communauté religieuse d'obtenir ce qui, autrement, pourrait sembler alarmant.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12683             REV. LUTES:  Sensitivity to listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12684             This application is reflective of the religious community of Montreal.  Harvesters has a long track record of being sensitive to its listeners.  We are constantly inviting our listeners to give us their feedback so these stations will be a reflection of their tastes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12685             Inspiration Montreal will be no different.  The team of broadcasters for Inspiration Montreal has over 75 years of combined experience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12686             Strong need for a religious stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12687             99 percent of the people in the region declare a religious affiliation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12688             M. ADAMS : Protestants : 207 940

LISTNUM 1 \l 12689             Orthodoxes : 94 680

LISTNUM 1 \l 12690             Chrétiens : 37 445

LISTNUM 1 \l 12691             Musulmans : 110 185

LISTNUM 1 \l 12692             Bouddhistes : 37 840

LISTNUM 1 \l 12693             Hindous : 24 075

LISTNUM 1 \l 12694             Sikhs : 7 930

LISTNUM 1 \l 12695             Religions orientales : 2 300

LISTNUM 1 \l 12696             Autres religions : 2 250


LISTNUM 1 \l 12697             REV. LUTES:  Approximately 600,000, 20 percent of the city is not being served by a religious station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12698             M. ADAMS : Montréal a besoin de cette licence afin de conserver la cadence.  D'autres parties du Canada sont bien desservies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12699             REV. LUTES:  Inspiration Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12700             M. ADAMS : Solution proposée.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12701             Meilleure utilisation de la fréquence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12702             Ceci permettra aux minorités de s'intégrer à la vie montréalaise.  Ceci permettrait d'étaler le talent québécois en matière de musique religieuse et son développement ultérieur.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12703             Bien équipé.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12704             Harvesters est bien préparé pour inspirer davantage l'industrie d'enregistrement de musique religieuse du Québec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12705             REV. LUTES:  Canadian programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12706             A broadcast agreement form is signed by all who provide programming to ensure it meets the broadcast standards as set out by the CRTC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12707             M. ADAMS : C'est une programmation financée au Canada.  Tous les revenus de la programmation restent au Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12708             REV. LUTES:  Other religions.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12709             Inspiration 106.3 has documented invitations to Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims for participation.  Time will be shared with various religions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12710             Canadian Talent Development.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12711             Harvesters has a proven track record:  Gospelfest concerts, the Oasis Music Club, ECMAs, the Junos, the Maritime Gospel Artists Association, and financial support for emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12712             The organizational chart.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12713             We have myself, the president, and the board of directors from different parts of the country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12714             The Interreligious Advisory Committee will be made up of clerics, different religious leaders representing their various denominations, religions in Montreal.  This will represent the broad spectrum of the religious community of Montreal and it will read a response from the city to the proposed radio station, and hence, as the arrow points, back to the board of directors, advise the board.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12715             The board then in turn will, as we look to the right‑hand side, direct the Montreal Radio Committee, of which Rob is the chairman, and they will be responsible for the direct day‑to‑day operation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12716             Then, of course, the Radio Committee, with Rob as the chairman of the board and the station manager, will then in turn give direction to the staff at the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12717             And Harvesters board of directors and president will have a direct impact as well on the staff at the station and listening to the station and so forth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12718             And of course, the staff is responsible for the day‑to‑day operation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12719             Our team is multicultural, bilingual, reflecting the Quebec recording industry and business sector with decades of experience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12720             M. ADAMS : Programmation locale.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12721             Le Forum : Nouvelles et vues de Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12722             Le Foyer : Interviews avec représentants des communautés.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12723             Le Babillard montréalais : Événements locaux et annonces de concerts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12724             Québec à Cour : Artistes musicaux du Québec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12725             Rhythm Gospel : Musique Gospel contemporaine et traditionnelle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12726             REV. LUTES:  Quebec‑based religious programs.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12727             M. ADAMS : Chants d'inspiration.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12728             Connexion Vie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12729             Paroles de Vie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12730             Radio Espoir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12731             La Voix de l'Évangile.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12732             Grâce victorieuse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12733             Faculté Mission Radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12734             L'Heure Nouvelle Vie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12735             Un Temps d'Espoir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12736             Ligne directe.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12737             La Foi vivante.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12738             Nouveaux Débuts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12739             Objectif Famille.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12740             Et si c'est vrai.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12741             Et RAFA

LISTNUM 1 \l 12742             REV. LUTES:  Inspiration Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12743             Benefits.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12744             M. ADAMS : 106.3 inspirera Montréal. Elle reflétera la diversité culturelle de cette ville de classe mondiale.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12745             Bénéfices socioéconomiques et en matière de sécurité.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12746             Une telle station favorise la baisse de la criminalité, l'amélioration de la vie familiale et de l'économie.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12747             REV. LUTES:  Inspiration 106.3 will strengthen families with parenting tips, children's programs and marriage enrichment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12748             M. ADAMS : Inspiration 106.3 promulgue le bien‑être des femmes et des enfants.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12749             REV. LUTES:  It defends the equality of all people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12750             Inspiration 106.3 helps new Canadians feel welcome, helps them learn the official languages, helps them make the transition to life in Montreal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12751             Inspiration 106.3 will help provide a diversity of voices for Montreal.  There are multiple stations giving the same formats, yet, no one is providing inspirational gospel music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12752             Inspiration 106.3 will reflect the cultural diversity of Montreal.  It will play a role in helping new Canadians gain a sense of belonging.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12753             M. ADAMS : Vaste gamme.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12754             Cette station a une grande pertinence sur le marché montréalais, parce qu'elle fournit une vaste gamme de services, à savoir :

LISTNUM 1 \l 12755             ‑ aviser les communautés ethniques des différents services religieux offerts;

LISTNUM 1 \l 12756             ‑ information concernant des opportunités d'emploi, des rencontres sociales.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12757             Citons, entre autres, le Babillard hindou et le Babillard chinois.  D'autres groupes seront également invités à faire connaître leurs activités.  Cela sera offert gratuitement et engendrera une cohésion accrue dans la mosaïque culturelle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12758             Il y a une forte demande pour cette licence, tel que démontré par une inspiration à une programmation qui n'est pas comblée par les stations actuelles.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12759             REV. LUTES:  New Canadians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12760             About 50 percent of the Asian community who came to Canada during the 1990s regularly attend religious services according to the federal government statistics agency.

"Immigrants remain faithful to their religion and even increase their devotion because it eases their transition to Canada, offers them comfort and provides a support group"

LISTNUM 1 \l 12761             ‑‑ Statistics Canada researcher George Morey(ph) said.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12762             Noting that Canada's large cities are among the most multicultural in the world, Morey said:


"Immigrants, most of them Asian, make up 18 percent of Montrealers.  Asian immigrants, whether they are from Korea or India, typically remain loyal to the religion of their parents."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12763             M. ADAMS : Inspiration 106.3 diffusera dans les deux langues officielles du Canada.  Les différentes communautés culturelles y trouveront un lien commun.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12764             Québec possède une industrie d'enregistrement de disque effervescente.  Cette licence peut être bénéfique à d'autres parties du monde.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12765             Inspiration 106.3 mettra en vedette les artistes québécois.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12766             Des stations de classe A sont une façon efficace de supporter de façon pratique la relève artistique.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12767             REV. LUTES:  Emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12768             We strongly encourage emerging artists in tangible ways.  There are superb Quebec artists who need Inspiration 106.3 for the promotion of their music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12769             Autonomy.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12770             An autonomous station by Montrealers for Montreal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12771             Inspiration Montreal:  The conclusion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12772             Montreal Inspiration.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12773             Music to inspire Montreal to even greater heights.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12774             M. ADAMS : Inspiration 106.3 est synonyme d'inspiration musicale fraîche, familiale et amicale.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12775             Inspiration pour Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12776             Aux noms des familles montréalaises, les néo‑Canadiens, les artistes du Québec et tous ceux qui désirent une musique pro‑famille et amicale, nous demandons que cette licence soit accordée afin que les besoins d'un segment important de la population montréalaise soient comblés.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12777             Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12778             REV. LUTES : Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12779             THE CHAIRPERSON:  This ends your oral introduction, presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12780             Commissioner Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12781             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you and I will be asking questions in English.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12782             M. ADAMS : Merci.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12783             REV. LUTES:  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12784             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And, Reverend Lutes, if I do not call you Reverend, please excuse me, I am used to talking to misters in these hearings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12785             REV. LUTES:  It is, yes, that is fine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12786             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And I will direct my questions to you and then you can address them to your panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12787             I am going to start with your programming and we are going to go into local, news, spoken word programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12788             You initially said you were going to have 30 hours of local programming and now 60 hours a week.  Where are they going to be produced?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12789             REV. LUTES:  In encouraging the local religious communities, the Buddhist community, the Hindu community, to actually come into our station so that if there are members of their community who do not have the resources, they can utilize our facilities but we would like to show them with the emergent technologies that it is relatively straightforward for them to produce a month's worth of programs so that we can bring them in.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12790             And recognizing the cultural diversity, we want to expand to ensure that in the evenings there is some good listening time for the other religious communities in addition to the Christian community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12791             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So am I hearing you that the 60 hours a week of local programming would be produced in Montreal?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12792             REV. LUTES:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12793             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  And you referred to some names of programs.  Have you actually set them up and have you got hosts and things like that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12794             REV. LUTES:  They are already in existence, which is proof positive that we need this for Montreal so that they are not looking south of the border.  Two of them are on our station in Moncton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12795             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  I am looking at page 39 of your presentation today.  So these are all produced right now in Quebec?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12796             REV. LUTES:  Surprisingly, the Champlain New York station is aiming its antenna to specifically reach the Montreal market.  Two hours in the afternoon is seulement en français, and we really feel that Canadians must have their own religious radio station.  They shouldn't have to be going to New York.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12797             I think that if it is produced by Quebecers, it should stay in Quebec.  It can remain in Quebec on their own radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12798             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So where are ‑‑ you say some of these are on your ‑‑ I am assuming your Moncton ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12799             REV. LUTES:  Yes, just two of them are, ma'am.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12800             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  And where are the rest of them airing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12801             REV. LUTES:  Primarily in ‑‑ this is an amazingly phenomenal station.  You can literally drive three hours in your automobile listening to this AM station but it finishes at 8:00 roughly in the evening and so many Montrealers are disappointed.  It is like well, what happens after 8:00?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12802             The other thing, when you are downtown around Montreal, it is fuzzy because of some of the buildings.  Montrealers are not happy with the service that they are receiving out of New York:  (a) it is AM, they need a high fidelity FM station; and if    this is proof positive that there is a healthy recording Christian industry in Quebec, with Luc Gingras as a prime example, and also specifically pertaining to these French spoken word programs that are very strong and very vital in Quebec, they need their station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12803             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So are there like brokered programs?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12804             REV. LUTES:  They represent themselves ‑‑ they are local ministers in Montreal.  There is ‑‑ l'Église Nouvelle Vie in Montreal is one of the largest in Canada, with over 2,000 people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12805             In Moncton we have three of the fastest and largest churches in Atlantic Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12806             I think that these religious stations that the CRTC is licensing is helping to bring a new vitality.  CMC Canada has a superb method of delivery.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12807             When I got started eight years ago, it was rather difficult to keep current with the music but we can have generally 80 percent of the top songs so that when a secular listener listens in ‑‑ this is primarily for the religious listener ‑‑ they are not going to say, oh, that's those Christians doing something second‑rate.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12808             We have superb facilities, tremendous artists right here in Quebec, an excellent method of delivery.  We are part of a network of over 100 people in Canada and we are part of this group of 40 stations in Canada, that synergy.  There is a well organized magazine that comes out monthly so that ‑‑ yes, I am sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12809             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Can we stick to my question?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12810             REV. LUTES:  Yes, certainly, I am sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12811             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So the question was:  Are these programs at page 39, are they brokered?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12812             REV. LUTES:  Brokered meaning that they will ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12813             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Buy the time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12814             REV. LUTES:  Buy the time, yes.  Straight answer, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12815             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  But would you be essentially reproducing the same ‑‑ it would just be an FM signal that you would be brokering from these people, they would be buying time on your station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12816             REV. LUTES:  They will provide for us in MP3 format these programs ‑‑ Rob would like to answer this question.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12817             MR. ADAMS:  Well part of our vision really is to repatriate Canadian listeners.  We find it regrettable that Montrealers who want to hear Christian programming have to look to a U.S. station and so an important part of our project is to bring those listeners back to Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12818             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So you would use the same programming that the New York station is using, is that ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12819             MR. ADAMS:  Not necessarily.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12820             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12821             REV. LUTES:  It is in French already being heard on an English station, so we don't have to reproduce it, it is all ready for air in fine quality.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12822             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Mm‑hmm.  So back to local programming.  Would you agree to a COL that there would be 60 hours of programming per week produced in Montreal?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12823             REV. LUTES:  Most definitely.  That is an easily accessed goal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12824             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  And then you talk about five hours of news.  When would news be provided during the day?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12825             REV. LUTES:  On the top of each hour and the first hour would be the French broadcast, the second corresponding hour would be the English news, then back to French and so forth throughout the day from 6:00 a.m. in the morning till 6:00 p.m. in the evening.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12826             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  And how much of the news is local?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12827             REV. LUTES:  One‑third is local, one third is Quebec/Canadian, then the other third is international.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12828             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And how much    the newscast, how long would it be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12829             REV. LUTES:  They are two‑minute sections, ma'am.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12830             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  And weather, sports?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12831             REV. LUTES:  Yes, and a business report as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12832             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  So one minute to news and the rest to ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12833             REV. LUTES:  No, two minutes for news and then the one‑minute weather report on the top of the hour.  On the halves we have a sports report and a business report and the one‑minute weather report and then it keeps cycling throughout the broadcast clock.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12834             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  And what number of staff are you anticipating in your newsroom?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12835             REV. LUTES:  We have already talked with le Tour de la Bourse, refreshed things since our initial approach, and I was quite surprised to see that the cost per square foot to rent here in Montreal is quite reasonable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12836             And in light of the lease that we are working out with them, we feel very confident that even if we didn't sell any commercials that we would still be showing a very sizeable profit.  I think that we could easily give salary to four people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12837             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I'm talking news‑gatherers, new journalists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12838             REVEREND LUTES:  We will be working with Wise Broadcasting that is across Canada and then we will have one of the staff members getting the local news as it pertains specifically to Montréal and Québec.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12839             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  So we have the five‑hour news.  What other spoken word is there in addition?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12840             REVEREND LUTES:  There are these Québec‑based programming.  There are some English program such as "Through the Bible" that have the French translation that will be airing.  Then the others will be English 28 minute programs.  Aerial Ministries out of Montréal.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12841             One of the things, thanks in large measure to the CRTC strengthening the religious community, organizations such as ourselves are now able to come back some years later and to report to you.  We asked you to give us the tools, and you have done that, and as a result we have first‑hand involvement with the People's Church, with their "Living Truth" program that is now beginning to air.  We are supporting Aerial Ministries, a local congregation in Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12842             I have been taking courses with the Pastor of the flagship church for the United Church of Canada.  The Timothy Eaton Memorial United Church have just approved to purchase airtime in Halifax.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12843             So because you are giving us the tools we are becoming less and less dependent upon American broadcasting.  Years ago when I first appeared before you, I had to say that a lot of these programs, yes, they are coming from the United States, but because you keep helping us we are able to meet with people like Dr. Andrew Stirling and say we need, in addition to the Brian Stillers, new emerging leaders and we are able to give them that platform so that we have a Canadian entity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12844             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So in addition to the five hours of news, how much additional spoken word will there be in your broadcast week?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12845             REVEREND LUTES:  Yes.  I did the math because ‑‑ the program Schedule 15.  We have 98 hours per week.  Given that you have a 126‑hour broadcast week, 98 hours is music and 28 hours per week you spoken word programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12846             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  So if there is five hours of news ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12847             REVEREND LUTES:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12848             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  ‑‑ and there is other spoken word ‑‑ I'm sorry, I didn't do the math ‑‑ is how much, 23?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12849             REVEREND LUTES:  Roughly, yes, with these programs that we want to be Montréal religious community programs, like from the Hindu community, Buddhist meditations, and so forth, for a half an hour in the evening on Friday night.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12850             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So how many hours of spoken word is there in addition to the five hours of news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12851             REVEREND LUTES:  There is 23 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12852             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Of that 23 hours, how much of it is local per week?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12853             REVEREND LUTES:  Half and half at this point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12854             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So 12‑1/2?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12855             REVEREND LUTES:  Yes, roughly.  As you can tell, that was off the top of my head.  I haven't done the math on that, but we could.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12856             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  Of that amount, how much of the 12.5 how much is "en français"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12857             REVEREND LUTES:  Again, it is half.  Ideally, I would like to have it mostly in French.  However, my friend is reminding me there is a strong English community, obviously, in Montréal as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12858             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  So of the amount that is not local ‑‑ and that is the other 12‑1/2 hours ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12859             REVEREND LUTES:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12860             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  ‑‑ how much of it is Canadian?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12861             REVEREND LUTES:  Well, the Timothy Eaton Memorial will be Canadian.  We have "Words from the Heart" that is Canadian.  Here we are right here.  Aerial Ministries is Canadian, "La Voix de l'Évangile", "La foi vivifiante", "Prophecy for Today", "The People's Gospel Hour".  These are all Canadian broadcast, spoken word programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12862             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I am trying to figure out what I am going to listen to.  So of the 12‑1/2 hours that are not locally produced, how much of that will be Canadian?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12863             REVEREND LUTES:  "In Touch" is an American program with Dr. Charles Stanley ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12864             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Please don't give me descriptions of the programs.  The question is:  Of the 12‑1/2 hours that is not local, how much is Canadian?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12865             REVEREND LUTES:  All right.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12866             Two, four ‑‑ there is three hours that is not Canadian in a day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12867             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  So about 4‑1/2 hours that is Canadian?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12868             REVEREND LUTES:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12869             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12870             Your balance programming, you were talking about having, was at four hours a week, and that was the block between 7:00 and 8:00, I think it is Monday to Thursday?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12871             REVEREND LUTES:  Yes, with programs whereby we give the tools, so to speak, to the Hindu community or the Muslim community.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12872             In Halifax we are encouraging that and we have the local committee there, and so forth.  These communities need to see that it is not an ominous task and we want to give them the instruction and the tools.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12873             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So you would agree to a COL of having a minimum of four hours a week balance programming by other faiths?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12874             REVEREND LUTES:  That sounds very reasonable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12875             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  It seems to me that your noon hour program ‑‑ was it "Fireside Chat" or something?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12876             REVEREND LUTES:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12877             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Was also going to essentially be balance programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12878             REVEREND LUTES:  Yes.  We have changed it to "Le foyer" because we didn't want it to sound like an American program.  It will be in French.  It is an interview format, prerecorded of course, whereby we have representatives from various charities, different religious clerics and so forth, where we come in ‑‑ I have done this for three years in Moncton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12879             I have many, many interviews that I have saved and it was perhaps the most popular show on CITA over any American programming, and so on and so forth, because people were hearing leaders from their own community.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12880             So we will be encouraging ‑‑ well, we will insist on the staff in Montréal having their own Montréal "Le foyer" program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12881             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You said in your talk today that you had "invited" other faiths ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12882             REVEREND LUTES:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12883             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  ‑‑ "a documented invitation to Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims".

LISTNUM 1 \l 12884             REVEREND LUTES:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12885             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Have you gotten any RSVPs?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12886             REVEREND LUTES:  Yes, I have.  I have made a mailing list of them.  I have it right here in front of me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12887             If the Commission would like, we have what we have labelled "List of Supporting Documents" and there are 18 different things.  One of them here is the response from the Buddhist community, the Hindu, the Islamic, and so forth, with contact information.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12888             So we have not tried to hype this up amongst the religious community where it is obviously very difficult to have a licence of this nature approved.  We want to wait until we actually had the licence.  At such time then we will say:  "There, finally, now we have this tool that we are making available to you so we are ready to go into action so to speak."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12889             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I think it is in your application under "Local Programming" ‑‑ you didn't paginate, but if you could get to your application under "Local Programming", and the third page of it ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12890             REVEREND LUTES:  In the actual application that was submitted?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12891             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  It is before the "Supplementary Brief", yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12892             REVEREND LUTES:  Yes, okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12893             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Three pages before the end.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12894             REVEREND LUTES:  All right.  I have them numbered.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12895             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  This is probably just my own curiosity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12896             REVEREND LUTES:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12897             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  In the third paragraph there you say that the Buddhists will be part of the mosaic.  The Chan Hai Lei Zang Centre is located there.  Then you have "Chinese folk religion is another part."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12898             REVEREND LUTES:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12899             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  What is "Chinese folk religion"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12900             REVEREND LUTES:  Other than typically Buddhist and recognizing the sizable Chinese Oriental community, wanting to make that available to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12901             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  What is "Chinese folk religion"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12902             REVEREND LUTES:  Well, in China we think that all Chinese are alike, or perhaps people like myself, but the Rev. Jim Chang of the Toronto People's Church was explaining to me there is much, much more, Jeff, then Mandarin and Cantonese.  You have to understand that there are so many other different folk religions and language groups, and so forth.  With the present government they have enforced the present language and it is not quite as homogeneous as what one might think.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12903             So he gave me quite a long explanation on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12904             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12905             Your CCD, moving right along.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12906             REVEREND LUTES:  All right.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12907             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  In the letter you send us on the 19th of April you said:  "A First Nations radio station" ‑‑ you would be giving money to a First Nations radio station ‑‑ "to be used in the training of a First Nations future broadcaster."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12908             Do you have any more particulars on that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12909             REVEREND LUTES:  Yes.  That is where I got my start in radio, at Big Cove in New Brunswick.  We have remained wonderful friends ever since; Melvin Augustine.  He by times has a school for young native men and women.  It is wonderful to go there and to see the enthusiasm.  Melvin has wanted to have a school like that in Moncton for off reserve native young people, and I want to give him the finances and the resources so that we see the strengthening of Aboriginal Voices Radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12910             We understand that one of the problems ‑‑ if I could just go a step further ‑‑ Aboriginal Voices Radio, we will be allowing them to collocate with us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12911             They have said they don't have the finances at this point and we feel that with these religious spoken word programs, we feel very confident that we will be able to cover the cost for the rental on the facility at Tour de la Bourse also.  So we want to remember where our roots are with native radio.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12912             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  So do I understand that this money is then going to be dedicated to a particular individual or a particular Band?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12913             REVEREND LUTES:  He and his son and wife, and so forth, they own the CFTI and he has his organization there.  It will go to him to help strengthen him in his vision of training up the future leaders of the native community of tomorrow, particularly as it pertains to broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12914             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So CFTI is the call letters?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12915             REVEREND LUTES:  Yes, in Big Cove, New Brunswick, near Rexton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12916             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  How would you ensure that it would be used for training of a First Nations future broadcaster?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12917             REVEREND LUTES:  Melvin and I have talked about teaching the school together, actually providing the computer on the desks, and so forth.  Now that our organization is growing, it frees me up for travelling in helping, and so force.  I enjoy going to Big Cove from time to time and just spending time with the First Nations people there.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12918             So I will be there first hand to see that the money that has been allocated is actually being used by his radio broadcast organization to help these young people and encourage them in their development of education.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12919             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So it is not like for a seminar or anything, or it is not a bursary?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12920             REVEREND LUTES:  I was very impressed to see Melvin having four or five of these young people coming in each evening.  They were picking their own music, and so forth.  We had to curtail them ‑‑ or Melvin did ‑‑ so that they weren't asking for girlfriends over the air, but nonetheless, with proper supervision and so forth there was some very serious training there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12921             Sometimes there is discouragement that sets in and we want to be there, not just in a financial way but encouraging them right along and helping provide the resources and even some teaching and setting a role model.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12922             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Did I misquote you?  Did your letter of April 19th refer to a Québec First Nations radio station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12923             REVEREND LUTES:  No, ma'am.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12924             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  No?  All right.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12925             I have to say I am having a hard time figuring out how we can assure ‑‑ what I am essentially hearing from you, and you have to disabuse me of this, is that the money is going to go to this licensee and you trust him that it will go for training of somebody.  Normally we can't do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12926             REVEREND LUTES:  We would accept as a COL that there be a representative of International Harvesters there to ensure that the money is not misappropriated, that it is used for a three‑month school for these young people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12927             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12928             REVEREND LUTES:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12929             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Are you planning any synergies?  I'm sure you are planning admin synergies with Moncton and Halifax, back office programming synergies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12930             REVEREND LUTES:  The synergy, it is so delightful one of the things that is making my life easier, not to get too, too personal, is that we have a DJ in St. John's, Newfoundland, who prepares a morning drive program and we have another DJ who is a teacher in broadcast schools.  He has 30 years of experience.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12931             We don't want to bring in too much of this from outside because we want Québec based French programming.  These people of course are speaking English, but the synergy would be in some of the spoken word programming and some DJ work.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12932             So the beautiful thing is that people in other parts of the country can find employment without having to move from their place of birth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12933             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So what programming synergies are you anticipating?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12934             REVEREND LUTES:  Some afternoon voicetracking and some programming such as the Timothy Eaton Memorial United Church.  Well, Aerial Ministries is Montréal.  But the synergy in terms of Bob Beasley's "Words from the Heart" where he is kind of like using the Canadian Encyclopedia and having a little fact of the day and bringing in some Canadian information and making spiritual application for his listeners within a little five‑minute program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12935             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  How much of the programming on the Montréal station would be the same as on either your Moncton or your Halifax station?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12936             REVEREND LUTES:  Very little, because this is an autonomous body that is self‑governing.  It is not imposing.  We feel they have the resources.  Basically we are the facilitators to supplement them where there is resource people, encouraging them as much as possible to have, in essence, its own independent radio station benefiting, if they want, from the synergy from the other radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12937             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  How much is "very little"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12938             REVEREND LUTES:  I would like to see 75 percent.  I think most definitely 75 percent is "seulement" solely from Québec and for Montréal.  The other 25 percent some of these outside programs, only to lighten the load on their staff, and so forth, and to give them that professional sound, sound that will be acceptable to secular listeners should they happen to hit "Seek" on their radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12939             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So 25 percent is minimal?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12940             REVEREND LUTES:  We feel that we need that because instead of a lot of little independent radio stations, the benefit of them being in a forum with one another is what helps to give that full professional sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12941             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I wanted to talk to you fairly seriously about ‑‑ I notice in one of your letters dated November 6th you talk about:

"This application for a religious FM licence arises from the grassroots of the Montréal religious community."


LISTNUM 1 \l 12942             I don't see them sitting here with you today and I ask myself why they don't apply.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12943             REVEREND LUTES:  Well, our thought is that with Luc Gingras, who is well‑known throughout Canada and Joe Cass, who is a well‑established businessman and our thought ‑‑ perhaps I will allow you to answer that question, you being a Montréaler.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12944             MR. ADAMS:  Well, I think the best way to answer that question is that when you approach a Christian in Montréal with a project for a radio station most of the times their immediate response would be "it will never happen".  They immediately will say "we have WCHP in Champlain, New York.  There is not enough of a market here", or whatever.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12945             They will have a response that is very lacking in hope, I think probably due to some failures to obtain licensing in the past.  They have come to a point where it is very difficult to get them on board.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12946             But I believe that once the licence is granted, they will definitely respond and would obviously prefer to have local programming, a local station that they can tune into.  So this is really the response to that.  There are many, many Christians in Montréal and they just don't have ‑‑ they just don't have the network when it comes to radio.  They are looking to an alternative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12947             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I guess now that it's even a phrase used in Newfoundland, the term "maîtres chez nous" comes to my mind, especially in regards to Québec, who first used it, but now Newfoundland uses it.  So I was just curious as to given that there is this groundswell or the grassroots, you just think that they don't think it can be done.  Is that it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12948             MR. ADAMS:  Also, there is the fear of competition.  For instance, the applicant for the AM station, among Christians in Montréal there is a fear that if we have two stations that competition is somehow unhealthy, whereas our view is the more the merrier, especially if you have one on AM and one on FM.  It is really not an issue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12949             But in the minds of many of these people, they need to be, in a sense, encouraged that the stations that broadcast in other cities ‑‑ they go to other cities and they hear Christian stations and then somehow in Montréal there is nothing, particularly for the English‑speaking listeners.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12950             For instance, Radio Ville‑Marie, I think some people were heartened by the arrival by Radio Ville‑Marie, but I don't think it really reflects a typical evangelical Christian radio station as we know it.  So that was a little bit of a disappointment, I think, for some people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12951             So there is still this need that needs to be filled for a specifically Christian radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12952             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  I want to go into control.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12953             As you know, there have been some concerns raised as to your control over the organization.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12954             REVEREND LUTES:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12955             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  As I see it, Mr. Lutes, you have a lifetime appointment, you cannot be replaced, and you have a 51 percent vote on the board.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12956             Just to take it down to a very simple level, right now I am sure you have your marbles, as my mother would say, but if you lost your marbles and you decided to buy a yacht in the name of International Harvesters, I don't think anybody could do anything about it, could they?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12957             REVEREND LUTES:  Well, the way I operate, each year's Chairman, who sometimes remains on for two years, I call him my boss.  The Chairman, it is like you have the CEO and then the Chairman of the Board.  It is a leadership of equals.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12958             The reason why we have entrenched things like this is to ensure the CRTC, should they grant this licence, that five years from now there is not some rogue Board; that there is somebody that they know ‑‑ there will be volunteer Directors who come and go, but we need to have that continuity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12959             But it is very much reporting to the Board of Directors, and it is wise to allow them to challenge things, and so forth, because when we walk away from the boardroom table we have a stronger ministry than ever because of many people giving their input.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12960             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  You have protected us from a rogue Board, but you haven't protected us from a rogue President.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12961             REVEREND LUTES:  I am ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12962             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And if you lose your marbles and decide to buy a yacht, they can't fire you, they can't change your decision.  I know you like to talk about conciliatory nice stuff, but I am a lawyer and so I look at the documents.  And if you bought a yacht, nobody could do anything about it.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12963             REVEREND LUTES:  We are a member of the Canadian Council of Christian Charities.  We report to Revenue Canada Charities Division and such irresponsible actions would be reported to Charities Division.  We could no longer hold membership with the Canadian Council of Christian Charities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12964             In associating with them we find out how to properly operate a charitable organization.  So it is a charity that has that security that owns the property and the licence, not one individual.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12965             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So there are external controls, but on the Board there are no controls against you buying a yacht.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12966             REVEREND LUTES:  Yes.  I can't spend anything over $500 without it being approved by the Chairman and the Board of Directors.  These things have to be brought up in the quarterly business meetings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12967             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  But again, at the Board of Directors you have a 51 percent vote.  So if you chose to buy a yacht, nobody could stop you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12968             REVEREND LUTES:  And that would be the last yacht that I would ever buy, because I would lose my charitable licence because ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12969             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And you have lost your marbles also, so it's not a big deal.


‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 12970             REVEREND LUTES:  That would be the end of International Harvesters.  It would have lost the confidence of the public.  We would have our charitable licence taken from us and the Board would have nothing to do with that kind of a character.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12971             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  But again, they couldn't do anything about it, because you are still in a lifetime appointment and 51 percent of the vote.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12972             REVEREND LUTES:  Lifetime ‑‑ I'm not trying to be a smart alec here ‑‑ lifetime appointment of what?  You could be like a locomotive going down the track and look behind you in see, hey, you broke the coupling.  You haven't listened to your leaders and the cars are way behind you.  So you can go full steam ahead, but you are not a leader if nobody is following you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12973             I have to have the confidence of these people, meeting with them on a regular basis and listening to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12974             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  Please don't think that I thought you have lost your marbles.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12975             REVEREND LUTES:  No.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12976             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I was just speaking hypothetically.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12977             REVEREND LUTES:  Certainly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12978             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Economics.  You are projecting an audience share of 1.5 percent.  How did you come up with that number?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12979             REVEREND LUTES:  Typically, these religious radio stations, none of them are getting above the 2 percent mark.  We feel it is a realizable goal anticipating that yes, we would wedge into the market and people would increase their listening time to include C106.3, thus giving us a 1.5 percent part of the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12980             So even the highly successful stations of CHRI and the Barrie station under Scott Jackson, they are not muscling out CHUM or anything like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12981             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  What is their share?  What is the Barrie station's share?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12982             REVEREND LUTES:  I can't answer that, but I will get you that answer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12983             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  This audience share projection wasn't based on your performance in Moncton or Halifax?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12984             REVEREND LUTES:  Yes, it is in part, but it is the precedent that is across‑the‑board as we correlate with fellow broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12985             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  You say there will be little impact on CIRA‑FM and soon to be Radio Shalom, and that is because...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12986             REVEREND LUTES:  It is because we are broadcasting in both official languages.  Since Radio Shalom has been approved, we have pulled back in the area of feeling, yes, the Jewish community would be welcome here by virtue of the fact that it is a religious, not a Christian licence, but we don't want to potentially be in competition to Radio Shalom and we want to peacefully coexist with other radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12987             Should our friends be approved, we would try to correlate with them.  If they say "Oh, well, we want this program", "Certainly, help yourself."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12988             MR. ADAMS:  We don't pose a threat to Radio Ville‑Marie for the reason that it is a completely different format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12989             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right. Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12990             You are projecting a steep revenue growth, 53 percent over the years, but your sales costs are only going up 11 percent.  What are you doing?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12991             REVEREND LUTES:  We are more interested in ministering comfort to people, assurance for families and ministering hope to people.  We want a commercial licence because when you have a non‑commercial licence and you have the business community making donations, I am always concerned that when we thank them on the air it might potentially begin to get a little bit too much like a commercial.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12992             So we operate with donations as a charity, but to make sure that we have the leeway we have asked for a commercial licence.  But we are not hungry for advertising dollars.  We don't really need them because these brokered programs provide us with a steady income.  So our focus is on making sure that these brokered programs are on the air.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12993             We are not commercially minded, being a charity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12994             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I wanted to get into the donations because you are at I think about 100 and you are going to go up to about 165.  Throughout you talk about them being unsolicited, free will offerings and yet there is talk about a fund‑raising campaign.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12995             What does that fund‑raising campaign do?  Do you use the radio waves at all?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12996             REVEREND LUTES:  We do in order to announce different events that are going on.  We find that one of the ways that people express their appreciation for the programming, knowing that it doesn't just come on automatically, is that they offer to make contributions.  We never have to stress money.  We would never, because we never have to, say "we are going off the air if you don't give", or anything like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12997             People give because they are joyful and because the appreciate what they hear, and they feel that they are being listened to and they feel that they have received the product that they have been asking for for decades.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12998             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Could I understand ‑‑ and I am looking at your Constitution.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12999             REVEREND LUTES:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13000             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I am looking at the updated January 2003.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13001             REVEREND LUTES:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13002             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I'm looking at Article 4 under "Finances".

LISTNUM 1 \l 13003             REVEREND LUTES:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13004             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Do I understand it, then, that if you get any money on air and you thank people on air, you don't give them a charitable receipt?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13005             REVEREND LUTES:  Exactly.  We are speaking, of course, of like an insurance company or a restaurant or whatever.  I say to them, I say "Well, I can't give you a charitable donation receipt."  Well, it doesn't matter to them because they treat it like advertising.  They are making a contribution from their business, which is treated differently than a private donation from a specific individual like somebody who is making a contribution of $100 for the year.  Then this way they receive a charitable receipt that is beneficial at income tax time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13006             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  In other words, businesses can put it off to ad and promo and people can't.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13007             REVEREND LUTES:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13008             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  That money then isn't subject to the Revenue Canada charitable rules that you have to pay out 80 percent, that sort of thing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13009             REVEREND LUTES:  All of it is.  We operate completely and with the assistance of the Canadian Council of Christian Charities to make sure that we are obviously within the confines of what is set out by Charities Division Revenue Canada.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13010             So the answer to that is yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13011             We can't make a profit from this.  80 percent has to be disbursed before the year is out for the charitable objectives of the organization.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13012             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  All right.  You said in writing that you are a member of the Canadian Council of Christian Charities and of course they have guidelines on ethical fund raising.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13013             REVEREND LUTES:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13014             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Would you agree to a condition of licence that you would remain a member in good standing of the Canadian Council of Christian Charities?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13015             REVEREND LUTES:  Most definitely.  We follow anything that they pick up on and follow it through.  With your membership, they are just a phone call away for any questions to make sure we are within the confines.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13016             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13017             Thank you, Mr. Lutes, panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13018             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Lutes, you talk about an AM radio station based in Champlain, New York.  Do you have an idea of their market share in the Montréal market?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13019             REVEREND LUTES:  Do you know that answer?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13020             I'm sorry, sir, we could get that information.  He has contact with the Champlain Radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13021             MR. ADAMS:  Yes.  The station manager is a good friend of mine.  I could easily get that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13022             THE CHAIRPERSON:  By the same token, can you ask them how many Francophones they are reaching?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13023             MR. ADAMS:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13024             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Because usually the American stations seem to reach the West Island but not necessarily where the Francophone population is living.  Obviously they are also reaching Valleyfield and Vaudreuil‑Dorion, which are bit more Francophone than in the West Island in terms of proportion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13025             Mr. Adams, when Commissioner Cram ask you about Radio Ville‑Marie you quickly answered saying that you were not competing against Radio Ville‑Marie because you were to be broadcasting a different format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13026             Could you elaborate on the differences between the two services?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13027             MR. ADAMS:  Yes.  I think principally Radio Ville‑Marie, being licensed with a religious licence, operates pretty much as a regular radio station with a format of easy listening and some talk.  What we are planning to do is to broadcast music that is evangelical Christian music from the top 40 Christian charts.  This is not something that Radio Ville‑Marie is currently doing, unless they have recently changed their format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13028             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is for music, but they also have talk programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13029             MR. ADAMS:  Yes.  Also, as far as talk goes, Radio Ville‑Marie is principally a Catholic station, whereas the background from which Mr. Lutes and myself come is Protestant.  So the evangelical and Protestant stream of Christianity has a very different perspective, very different lexicon, very different ways of addressing issues, has a very different administrative and political structure, has very different views on marriage, et cetera.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13030             So I think the ideas that are being promoted from Radio Ville‑Marie are not really the same ideas once you get into specifics, in the same way that a Catholic person is not going to go to a Protestant church on Sunday and a Protestant person is not likely to go to a Catholic church.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13031             So it is really two different markets.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13032             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13033             Mr. Moltner, unless you have different answers to what you gave when you appeared with the previous group, I may skip all the questions.  If you are telling me the answers will be exactly the same, I can surely thank you for being here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13034             MR. MOLTNER:  Well, fortunately in my business, the laws of physics don't change very rapidly, so the answers remain the same.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13035             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But the applications to change, I hope.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13036             MR. MOLTNER:  They sure do, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13037             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But it doesn't seem that the engineering community ‑‑ that as an aside.  That has nothing to do with the hearing, but looking at AM radio, which is based on technologies developed in the early 1920s, maybe the laws of physics haven't changed but the applications must have to some extent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13038             MR. MOLTNER:  This is true.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13039             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That they are still broadcasting with technologies put together in the early 1920s.  The same for FM, which is only 10 to 15 years later.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13040             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  Just on the subject of your programming, the language of programming is 49 percent French?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13041             MR. ADAMS:  51 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13042             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  51 percent French.  I'm trying to understand what the audience for that 51 percent French programming will be if you consider yourselves to be a religious station but, in essence, a Protestant station.  I don't want to get into an argument of whether I'm right about the essence of Protestants, because I think he just said it.  So let's not question that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13043             REVEREND LUTES:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13044             COMMISSIONER FRENCH:  I appreciate the balance issues and so on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13045             I am just trying to understand what you are trying to do with the 51 percent French broadcasting.  I don't know a French Protestant.  There may be some Huguenots in North America and Europe but there are very few French‑speaking Protestants around.  So what does it mean?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13046             MR. ADAMS:  I would love to introduce you to my friends.  You know, there are way more French‑speaking Protestants than most people know, as proven by the number of French programs broadcast from WCHP.  Just that alone is an indicator that it is not a non‑existent people group.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13047             But to answer the question, I think that the 51 percent majority going to French ‑‑ because we are not afraid of the French losing their marbles and taking the majority of the pie away, but maybe we are wanting to reverse the numbers from the referendum that we had a few years back.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13048             I think the nature of this decision is that Canada has two official languages.  We are not applying for a multilingual station; we are applying for a station that represents Canada, French and English ‑‑ French primarily because we are located in Québec, in Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13049             But we are also not wanting to deny the fact that there is a significant population of English‑speaking people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13050             We could have applied for a fully French Christian station, but I think that would have ‑‑ I don't think that would have served the English‑speaking Christians in Montréal which are numerous as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13051             I don't know if that fully answers your question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13052             CONSEILLER FRENCH:  Ça va, Monsieur le Président.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13053             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Adams, you took an undertaking to get us some answers back from your friends at the Champlain AM radio station.  Could we have answer, say, for tomorrow morning?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13054             MR. ADAMS:  If he answers his phone, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13055             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13056             MR. ADAMS:  I will do my best.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13057             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  You could say it orally when you will appear tomorrow just for the record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13058             REVEREND LUTES:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13059             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, gentlemen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13060             REVEREND LUTES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13061             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will take an hour for a break and this afternoon we will hear the three AM applications.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13062             Nous reprendrons à 1 h 05 avec l'étude des trois démandes de radio pour la bande A.M.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1204 / Suspension à 12 h 04

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1307 / Reprise à 13 h 07

LISTNUM 1 \l 13063             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13064             Madame la Secrétaire?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13065             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13066             We will now proceed with an application by S.S. TV Inc. for a licence to operate an AM commercial, ethnic radio programming undertaking in Montréal.  The new station would operate on frequency 1,410 kHz, Class B, with a transmitter power of 10,000 watts day‑time and night‑time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13067             Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Ravinder Singh Pannu, who will introduce his colleagues.  You will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13068             Mr. Pannu.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13069             MR. PANNU:  Chairperson and Commissioners, good afternoon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13070             Before I start the presentation I would like to introduce my panel.  My name is Ravinder Singh Pannu.  I am the President of S.S. TV Inc.  The new AM station will be owned and operated by S.S. TV Inc.  I have 20 years of experience with television and SCMO Radio and I am the first Canadian among the Punjabis to start a 24‑hour TV and SCMO radio channel.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13071             Before venturing into the ambitious project of starting a 24‑hour radio and TV program, I anchored Awaze‑Punjab, the first Punjabi program on Citytv from 1986 to 1992.  From 1992 to 1995, I produced, directed and anchored a TV program called "Sajri Saaver" on Citytv.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13072             In 1994, I started Sur Sagar Radio, SCMO, the first 24‑hour seven days a week South Asian radio channel catering to the needs of Punjabi, Hindi and Urdu population of Toronto and adjoining areas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13073             In 2001, I got S.S. TV broadcasted on Rogers Cable and in 2005 on Cogeco.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13074             On my left is Mr. Mario Pratola who is our Director of Technical Services, under contract. He has more than 30 years of experience in radio and television design and installation.  Mr. Mario Pratola will take up the technical part of our application today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13075             On my right side is Mr. Sanjiv Kumar.  He has a Master's Degree in Management and Master's Degree in Economics and has been teaching management and economics in Guru Nanak Dev University in India.  Mr. Kumar had the opportunity to make presentation on issues of economics and management before international organizations, including World Trade Organization in Geneva.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13076             Mr. Kumar started his broadcasting career in Montréal.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13077             Mr. Kumar is anchoring the TV program "Canada Watch" at S.S. TV and he will be taking care of the marketing and financing part of our application today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13078             Chairperson and Commissioners, S.S. TV Inc. appears before you today seeking approval to establish a new ethnic AM station to serve Montréal centre and adjoining areas.  The proposed station will operate at 1,410 kHz on AM band at the effective radius power of 10,000 watt.  Approval of S.S. TV's application on frequency 1410 kHz will bring significant diversity and added listener choice to Montréal radio market by providing high quality, locally relevant programming to 13 ethnocultural communities and 12 different languages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13079             The program schedule of S.S. TV reflects the rich culture diversity of each community by giving it a distinctive radio voice and an ongoing presence and a recognition of its contribution to Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13080             For the unserved, it will mean access to regular scheduled dedicated programming in their own heritage language, and for underserved it will add programming diversity and listener choice that will enhance and complement existing services.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13081             The major languages to be catered by this new enterprise will be Punjabi, Hindi, Urdu, Gujarati, Armenian, Hungarian, Belgian, Korean, Syrian, Tamil, Bengali and ethnic English.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13082             Our commitment to $190,000 on Canadian talent will greatly benefit Montréal's developing artists in need of financial support.  We confirm that if licensed, our station will make a contribution of $125,000.  This cheque will be written today if the licence is granted in years one through four, and increasing at $230,000 in years five through seven.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13083             We further confirm that we will contribute 100 percent of the station's annual contribution to either FACTOR and/or MUSICACTION.  We accept the above commitment as conditions of licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13084             Over and above the contribution outlined, we will build in our station a recording studio in order to provide a platform to emerging artists to be recorded, as well as it will be an important vehicle at the disposal of various ethnic groups served by station.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13085             We will provide emerging singer opportunities and broadcast their music and interviews to promote emerging talent.  We will be providing opportunities for the commercial radio audience to hear music by new Canadian artists.  It will be 33.3 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13086             We will be providing them free studio facility.  We will organize the concerts for them.  We will facilitate their participation in various community‑based activities.  We will sponsor them to buy instruments.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13087             We accept the above commitments as conditions of licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13088             As you know, the Ethnic Broadcast Policy stipulates that for ethnic radio stations a minimum of 7 percent of musical selection aired each broadcast week during ethnic programming period must be Canadian.  We would commit to a minimum 10 percent of musical selection.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13089             Since this percentage surpasses the maximum regulatory requirement of 7 percent, we confirm that we would be prepared to accept this higher commitment by condition of licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13090             S.S. TV Inc.'s ethnic broadcast plan fully meets the spirit and intent of the Broadcasting Act and the Commission's Ethnic Broadcast Policy and represents the most comprehensive, productive and optimum utilization of the 1,410 kilohertz frequency.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13091             Montréal's multiculturalism has transformed into one of the most ethical diversities in the world.  Montréal hosts many ethnic communities which are unserved and underserved on the airwaves.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13092             The applicant will accept as a condition of licence the obligation to provide air time in their respective languages to these communities.  We will be catering to 12 languages and 13 communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13093             Furthermore, we will provide special programming.  As Montréal is a predominantly French‑speaking city, immigrants who come from various countries need to integrate themselves into a predominantly French environment.  We have planned a special program which helps new immigrants to understand and appreciate French language and the culture, hence developing our broadcast model.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13094             The dominant languages spoken amongst South Asians are Punjabi, Hindi, Urdu, Bengali, Tamil and Gujarati.  This is the reason we have taken care of providing exclusive time for our programming in these languages.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13095             Spirituality has a very important place in the heart of all communities in general and South Asian communities in particular.  To promote religious harmony, to advance good understanding of various major religions, time slots are earmarked for Christianity, Sikhism, Islam and Hindu religious programs, along with the art of living.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13096             Most important, this will be non‑commercial programming.  It may lead to some loss in revenue, but it will give respect to the sensitivities of many communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13097             As carrier broadcaster, S.S. TV's insistence over the past two decades on achieving the highest quality programming possible has been our benchmark and the key to our success in producing world‑class multicultural programming in Toronto.  We believe through our experience in both ethnic radio and television, the most important need of the third language group is to have access to programming that is directly relevant to the local communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13098             We will provide 92 percent local programming, which will be 116 hours of the programming taken from Sur Sagar Radio will be 10 hours per week, which will include programs called "Bhakhde Masle", "Khoz Nachdi Jawani" and "Sur Sagar Radio".

LISTNUM 1 \l 13099             Please see the schedule of Time table.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13100             We will definitely incorporate spoken word material of direct and particular relevance to the communities served.  This will include local news, weather, sports coverage and promotion to local events and activities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13101             Below is a typical Wednesday program line‑up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13102             The ethnic English program will take up community issues of ethnic population.  This program will be truly a multicultural program representing multicultural Canada.  This program will be broadcast Monday to Friday from 2:00 p.m. to 3:00 p.m..  We will be providing a minimum of 15 hours of cross cultural programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13103             Now I request Mr. Mario Pratola to brief you on the technical part of our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13104             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13105             MR. PRATOLA:  Thank you, Mr. Pannu.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13106             Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, S.S. TV's application will utilize the frequency of 1,410 kHz in the most efficient manner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13107             S.S. TV Inc. in this application is proposing a 10 kW day, a 10 kW night undertaking on 1,410 kHz to service Montréal.  This operation is to be co‑sited with CJMS 1040 located in Saint‑Constant.  CJMS has signed a co‑siting agreement to that effect.  This document is on file with the CRTC.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13108             Currently the CJMS site is comprised of three in‑line towers.  S.S. TV Inc. will require adding a fourth tower in order to obtain the required contours.  Both CJMS and S.S. TV Inc. to utilize the same antenna grid, a combiner will have to be installed.  S.S. TV Inc. will of course pay for these changes, along with whatever modifications are required.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13109             I will emphasize that there will be no degradation to CJMS, to its signal and/or its contours.  Should S.S. TV Inc. be awarded a licence, S.S. TV Inc. will install the most current transmitter, the latest technology available.  We will provide redundancy to the system, including backup transmitters, diesel generator power backup.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13110             S.S. TV Inc. is committed to correct all transmission difficulties as related to reception, interference, overloading, et cetera, within the 250 mV per metre contour and provide free consultation outside of this 250 mV per metre contour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13111             Safety Code 6 will be implemented to its fullest capacity.  Proper fencing, signage and rear field radiation warnings, et cetera, all that is required to keep the public aware and to limit any liability.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13112             S.S. TV Inc. is prepared to share the cost with CJMS for the existing three towers and to bring them into good state of repair, correcting any structural concerns.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13113             S.S. TV Inc.'s application maximizes the potential of the 1,410 kHz frequency at 10 kW.  Therefore, the most efficiencies are realized from the spectrum.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13114             Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13115             MR. PANNU:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13116             CJMS 1040 kHz AM ownership discovery.  This situation was conveniently raised two weeks ago.  It appeared that various individuals, one being the consultant of Radio Humsafar contesting ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13117             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Pannu, this is part of the intervention period that will take place at the end of the day today or early tomorrow.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13118             MR. PANNU:  All right, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13119             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Could you refrain from referring to that and go to your conclusions so that this part is dealt with at the proper time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13120             MR. PANNU:  Yes.  I would like to ask Sanjiv Kumar if he would present his...

LISTNUM 1 \l 13121             MR. KUMAR:  Thank you, Ravinder.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13122             Good afternoon, Chairperson and Commissioners, fellow applicants in the audience.  The Metropolitan Montreal is a vibrant multicultural city with a large immigrant population.  South Asians are an important segment among the visible minorities.  This highly active community has no visibility on the airwaves of Montreal.  There is a huge South Asian community and other ethnic populations with good business and purchasing power.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13123             S.S. TV Inc. has a specialty TV channel and Sur Sagar Radio, SCMO.  The ethnic population of Canada belonging to Toronto, Vancouver, Montréal, Edmonton, Calgary, needs a common platform.  Our effort to start an AM channel in Montréal is a step in this direction.  This will have major revenue and programming synergies and will provide quality broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13124             The new AM station will provide opportunities to mainstream business communities and ethnic business communities of Montréal to broadcast about their products and services among growing ethnic communities and hence will create business jobs and will cater to the educational, informational and entertainment needs of the communities.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13125             It is important to note that there is no multicultural radio attaching to the South Asian community operating in Montréal centre on AM airwaves.  The long‑term revenue projections were developed using that presumption.  The general economic forecast seems optimistic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13126             Particularly, there is a bubbling growth of immigrant communities in Montréal and it is expected to continue for the years to come.  This would increase the number of listeners as the number of local businesses serving a population.  The most important facts, we have discussed with independent producers our proposals about programming in their language, which includes tapes of borrowed time, content of programming and prospective hosts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13127             A final agreement can be done when the CRTC grants the licence.  Approximately 50 hours of programming is already secured.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13128             S.S. TV Inc. is going to invest $400,000 as an equity in this project.  Brokered programming will be 69 hours and average hourly charge will be approximately $65.  Non‑commercial programming will be of 14 hours.  Commercial programming by our station will be of 42 hours.  Total weekly sports will be approximately 4:30 and one spot will be approximately at a very small nominal rate of $7.00.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13129             For programming we will have one full‑time and three part‑timers.  We will have one full‑time marketing person and one part‑time marketing person.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13130             For administration, one station manager, receptionist and bookkeeper and part‑time person for weekends will be employed.  We expect around $50,000 to be the rent, telephone and hydro, but this is not included in our expenses because Mr. Pannu proposed that if this licence is granted probably he will buy a property.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13131             Last year Mr. Pannu applied for a Brampton station and he gave a site to the CRTC for the antennas and others, and he purchased that property for $1 million and we have no regrets, though our application was denied.  But that is a good property.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13132             So he intends to buy a property in Montréal when he starts the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13133             As far as the financial operations are concerned, we expect from the national sources we will be getting $75,000 in the first year, which will increase to $250,000 in the seventh.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13134             On the local advertising revenue, we expect $100,000 in the first year, which will increase to $275,000 in the seventh year from other, which means brokerage.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13135             We expect around $237,000 in the first year, which will reach to about $325,000 in the seventh year.  As far as the expenses are concerned, we believe that around $90,000 will be spent on the programming and $25,000 a straight payment to the Canadian development program, on either FACTOR or MUSICACTION.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13136             We expect to spend around $60,000 on the technical in the first year, which will reach to $83,000 in the seventh.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13137             On sales, advertising and promotion, $65,000 in the first and $75,000 in the seventh.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13138             On administration and general expenses, around $125,000 in the first and $295,000 in the seventh, as the operation increases.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13139             Total operating expenses will be to the tune of $365,000.  Including other unforeseen and other expenses it will be around $25,000.  The total expenses will be $390,000 in the first year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13140             So we find that even in the first year, S.S. TV Inc. is having a positive balance.  So there is no negative balance.  It comes to the break‑even point with very, very conservative projections for the revenue.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13141             Before I complete my presentation, I would like to regret that some typographical mistakes were done in our application because we were working on two applications simultaneously, our Brampton application and Montréal application at the same time.  So there was some similar programming.  Because of that, certain typographical mistakes were being made in the application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13142             We once again regret and apologize.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13143             Mr. Pannu...?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13144             MR. PANNU:  Thank you, Sanjiv.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13145             In conclusion, approval of S.S. TV Inc.'s application for 1,410 KHz AM will, among many considerations:

LISTNUM 1 \l 13146             1) extend service to 13 unserved and underserved ethnic communities in 12 languages;

LISTNUM 1 \l 13147             2) introduce a significant new level of programming diversity and added listener choice to Montréal's ethnic radio market;

LISTNUM 1 \l 13148             3) implement Canadian talent development initiatives.  That will provide financial support.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13149             4) help narrow the service disparity gap between Montréal's well served English and French speaking radio audience and the far less served third language community.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13150             Chairperson and Commissioners, these are but some of the reasons why approval of S.S. TV Inc.'s application will serve the public interest and best ensure the optimum utilization of 1,410 kHz AM frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13151             On behalf of S.S. TV Inc., I want to thank you for this important opportunity to present our proposal for 1,410 kHz AM.  My colleagues and I look forward to answers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13152             Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13153             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Pannu, thank you very much for your introductory remarks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13154             Just a comment on the financials that you have tabled today.  They are the same as what we have in our file.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13155             MR. PANNU:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13156             THE CHAIRPERSON:  They are made on the same assumptions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13157             I heard you, Mr. Kumar, mentioning that you have budgeted money for rent but you may buy your own facilities.  But that doesn't change the economics that is before the Commission.  It is exactly the same numbers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13158             MR. KUMAR:  Exactly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13159             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So there is no ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 13160             MR. KUMAR:  That is why we have not included the rent part and expenses in our actual financial statement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13161             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it makes the thing clear for everybody, we are working from the same numbers throughout this period.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13162             MR. KUMAR:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13163             THE CHAIRPERSON:  My first questions will deal with ‑‑ I would say, first of all, that we had a series of questions but a good number of them have been answered by your oral presentation and your agreement to accept conditions of licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13164             So I will try not to repeat what you have already agreed to.  But if it does happen, I apologize because obviously there were numerous commitments in your oral presentation and we appreciate that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13165             MR. PANNU:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13166             MR. KUMAR:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13167             THE CHAIRPERSON:  My first question is to do with spoken word in your programming versus music programming.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13168             Could you give us, in terms of hours, how many hours of spoken word you are contemplating and then we will break it down between news and current affairs and other types of spoken were programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13169             MR. PANNU:  It will be approximately 40 percent, so 126 hours, of 45.  It will be approximately, we can say, around 55 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13170             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Around 55?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13171             MR. PANNU:  Around 55 to 60 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13172             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.  Between 55 to 60 hours of spoken word, which will be made up of what type of content?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13173             MR. PANNU:  That will be, let's say, when introduction of any songs, the announcer will be speaking some words regarding music and the singer, as well as the writer.  It would be including a news section too.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13174             THE CHAIRPERSON:  How much news are you contemplating in terms of duration?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13175             MR. PANNU:  We would have two hours news, which will be regional and national and international.  Local news will be 1‑1/2 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13176             So altogether it will be three hours and 30 minutes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13177             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So 75 percent of your news time will be dedicated to local news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13178             MR. PANNU:  Two hours will be original, national and international.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13179             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13180             MR. PANNU:  The local will be one and a half hours, which will be particular about Montréal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13181             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That hour and a half is over and above the two hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13182             MR. PANNU:  Yes, sir.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13183             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it is an hour and a half over three hours and a half of programming time.  All right.  I apologize for misunderstanding what you had said.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13184             News, does it include sports, weather, traffic or is it purely news material?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13185             MR. PANNU:  It will be rather about sports as well as community events happening around.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13186             THE CHAIRPERSON:  How will you gather the information for your news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13187             MR. PANNU:  We already have quite a system set up in Toronto and we would be doing the same thing here in Montréal.  We will be taking the news from overseas, which we already have our people working over there for international.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13188             About national, we will be picking up from various sources.  And locally we would have our people sitting and they will be receiving the calls from ‑‑ because when we are talking about small groups, ethnic groups, mostly whatever happens in the community, people call first and then we call them and confirm is it right or wrong.  If it is wrong, then we start asking why someone told us what is not right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13189             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.  By local news, obviously you are not talking about what we could listen to on CBC or any given commercial radio station for local news.  It is news that is catering very specifically towards the community that you are serving and, as you say, more than likely they will be calling you to break the news so that the matter is covered.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13190             MR. PANNU:  It is sort of that community news we call this community news, and about which will be related to Canada.  That will be taken from various sources.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13191             THE CHAIRPERSON:  What happens when there is a major, much broader issue?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13192             Take the City of Montréal as an example.  The Mayor of the City of Montréal makes a major announcement that obviously is of interest for all the community.  Will you be capable of accessing that information and how will you do it?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13193             MR. PANNU:  Yes, mostly.  Like in Toronto, we have already set up everywhere our system.  They send us newsletters.  So we will be taking the newsletter from them through our e‑mail or through the fax and then we will make up the news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13194             You want to add something?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13195             MR. KUMAR:  Well, basically there are two types of things.  As Mr. Pannu has already mentioned about community information, they send us the information.  You have mentioned about suppose the city sent us some information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13196             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13197             MR. KUMAR:  Yes, we can develop a part of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13198             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Obviously you receive a news release from the city, but there is something happening now.  Obviously there is no news release because it's ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13199             MR. KUMAR:  I understand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13200             We can always have one or two persons on contract which we can inform them "Okay, go and contact her", that information.  Because the operation of the station is not as big as CTV or CBC or in a big national channel.  It is not like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13201             But if it is really important, it can always be done.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13202             We had a very good experience.  Last year we covered Canadian election on S.S. Television and I was the only person from S.S. TV to go visit the whole of Canada, having my camera and going there, talking there.  I don't do that recording and reporting job every day, but for important events you can always find people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13203             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But those are planned events.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13204             MR. KUMAR:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13205             MR. PANNU:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13206             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am trying to get your views regarding an unplanned event, something that breaks out today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13207             MR. KUMAR:  For any such event we have to make arrangements.  We are supposed to be there and those special situations can always be handled, and we should handle them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13208             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So in a way you are saying to me you will handle at in the very same manner as any other radio broadcast services would do.  They don't know about it before it occurs, but suddenly it happens.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13209             I'm just having in mind the drama that happened at Dawson College a year or so ago.  It could have been of interest to members of your community because they could have had kids registered at Dawson College and they surely will want to know what is going on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13210             MR. KUMAR:  Well, we cannot have everyday presence at most of the events like CBC radio or others may have.  We cannot have.  But definitely we have to make the arrangements for special situations, which we will be making.