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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE
THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND
TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT
LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT/SUJET:
VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /
PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Conference Centre Centre de conférences
Pontiac Room Salle Pontiac
Portage IV Portage IV
140 Promenade du Portage 140, promenade du Portage
Gatineau, Quebec Gatineau (Québec)
May 1st, 2007 Le 1er mai 2007
Transcripts
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
Contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Transcription
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian Radio‑television and
Telecommunications Commission
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
télécommunications canadiennes
Transcript / Transcription
VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /
PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION
BEFORE / DEVANT:
Michel Arpin Chairperson / Président
Barbara Cram Commissioner / Conseillère
Andrée Noël Commissioner / Conseillère
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:
Jade Roy Secretary / Secrétaire
Francine Laurier-Guy Hearing Manager /
Gérante de l'audience
Valérie Lagacé Legal Counsel /
Conseillère juridique
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Conference Centre Centre de conférences
Pontiac Room Salle Pontiac
Portage IV Portage IV
140 Promenade du Portage 140, promenade du Portage
Gatineau, Quebec Gatineau (Québec)
May 1st, 2007 Le 1er mai 2007
TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS
PAGE / PARA
PHASE I
PRÉSENTATION PAR / PRESENTATION BY:
Hellenic canadien câble radio ltée (Cont.) 351 / 2058
Neeti P. Ray (OBCI) 370 / 2218
International Harvesters for Christ 436 / 2617
Evangelistic Association Inc.
S.S. TV Inc. 492 / 3069
Radio Humsafar 546 / 3470
Communications Média Évangélique 592 / 3862
PHASE II
INTERVENTION PAR / INTERVENTION BY:
Yves Sauvé 668 / 4447
Hellenic canadien câble radio ltée 674 / 4493
René Ferron 686 / 4572
Neeti P. Ray 690 / 4592
S.S. TV Inc. 696 / 4623
Radio Humsafar 701 / 4663
Communications Média Évangélique 705 / 4696
Gatineau (Québec) / Gatineau, Quebec
‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Tuesday, May 1st, 2007
at 0830 / L'audience débute le mardi 1er mai 2007
à 0830
LISTNUM 1 \l 1 \s 20532053 LE PRÉSIDENT : Nous entendrons, en premier, les représentants de la requérante Canadian Hellenic Cable Radio, suite à quoi nous procéderons avec le prochain item de l'audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12054 C'est exact, Madame la secrétaire?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12055 LA SECRÉTAIRE : Exact, Monsieur le président.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12056 LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci, Madame.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12057 Alors, bienvenue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12058 MRS. GRIFFITHS: Good morning, Mr. President, Madam Commissioner, Mr. Commissioner.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12059 I am Marie Griffiths. You remember Allan Mass, our partner; Bill Schwartz, who is our financial advisor and accountant; and here he is, Jean Fréchette, our engineer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12060 M. FRÉCHETTE : Bonjour.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12061 LE PRÉSIDENT : Bonjour, Monsieur Fréchette. Avec votre permission, je vais vous poser des questions en français.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12062 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui, oui, oui. C'est ma langue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12063 LE PRÉSIDENT : Merci.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12064 Monsieur Fréchette, comme vous êtes l'ingénieur au dossier, vous êtes familier avec les enjeux d'un deuxième adjacent à une fréquence, d'une part, et d'autre part, vous êtes sans doute connaissant du fait que, au moment où on se parle, Aboriginal Voice Radio occupe un site temporaire et que, éventuellement, ils se relocaliseront à un endroit autre que le site qu'ils occupent présentement. Du moins, c'est ce que le Conseil semble avoir reçu comme information, soit de la part de AVR, soit de la part du ministère de l'Industrie.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12065 Advenant que AVR se relocalise à un site différent de celui qu'il est présentement, quel sera l'impact sur votre projet?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12066 M. FRÉCHETTE : Vous voulez dire qu'il s'installe à son site permanent...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12067 LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12068 M. FRÉCHETTE : ...qui serait, par exemple, le Tour de la Bourse ou...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12069 LE PRÉSIDENT : Bien, je ne le sais...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12070 M. FRÉCHETTE : Moi non plus, je ne le sais pas là, mais je fais ça comme hypothèse.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12071 LE PRÉSIDENT : Bien, actuellement, si je regarde la carte de rayonnement que vous avez déposée...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12072 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui. Nous, on est sur le Mont‑Royal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12073 LE PRÉSIDENT : ...et ses coordonnées, vous êtes sur le Mont‑Royal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12074 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12075 LE PRÉSIDENT : Est‑ce que vous avez l'intention de vous implanter au Mont‑Royal?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12076 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui, oui. Bien, écoutez, je vous explique brièvement comment on s'est retrouvé là.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12077 A mon avis, le meilleur site à Montréal, c'est le Mont‑Royal. Donc, il y a beaucoup de stations qui... des stations majeures qui ont déménagé au Mont‑Royal, même des stations qui avaient 100,000 watts. Donc, forcément, avec notre petit 300 watts ou 200‑300 watts maximum, on se doit d'être au Mont‑Royal. Pour desservir Montréal, il faut être au Mont‑Royal. Techniquement, je crois que c'est un must.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12078 Donc, pour moi... et d'autant plus que l'expérience du 105.1 nous a montré qu'on avait un très bon signal à partir du Mont‑Royal. Donc, il fallait être là.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12079 L'autre raison pour laquelle je trouvais que le Mont‑Royal, c'était un bon endroit pour la situation des seconds adjacents, c'est que la zone de brouillage qui est la plus importante dans ces cas‑là, c'est à côté des antennes, c'est‑à‑dire là où le signal est élevé. L'avantage du Mont‑Royal, c'est que là où le signal est très élevé, notre signal est très élevé, donc, là où on pourrait brouiller AVR, peu importe où il est, c'est un parc, donc, il n'y a personne. Enfin, il n'y a pas d'habitations, il y a moins de personnes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12080 Donc, c'est un double avantage d'être au Mont‑Royal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12081 Maintenant, si Industrie Canada ou la réglementation nous oblige à être au même endroit que AVR, on n'a pas d'objection, à condition qu'on sache où ils sont.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12082 LE PRÉSIDENT : Donc, vous n'auriez pas d'objection de co‑localiser, mais à votre avis...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12083 M. FRÉCHETTE : Bien, mon avis, c'est le Mont‑Royal, c'est...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12084 LE PRÉSIDENT : A votre avis, basé sur votre expertise, le meilleur site pour vous, c'est le Mont‑Royal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12085 Je présume que ce serait également le cas pour AVR; ce serait le meilleur site pour eux, je présume?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12086 M. FRÉCHETTE : Bien, si on met ces arguments‑là bout à bout, c'est‑à‑dire desservir Montréal, il y a une montagne à Montréal, il faut être sur la montagne. Comme je dis, il y a beaucoup de stations qui... Il y a des stations... il y a une station de 100 000 watts, qui était au coin de Berri et Sherbrooke, qui est déménagée sur le Mont‑Royal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12087 LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12088 M. FRÉCHETTE : Nous, on parle de 300 watts. Alors, il faut être sur le Mont‑Royal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12089 Ensuite, il faut être ensemble. C'est sûr que s'ils étaient sur le Mont‑Royal avec nous, ça serait... si c'est faisable.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12090 LE PRÉSIDENT : Ça serait la situation idéale.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12091 M. FRÉCHETTE : Puis l'autre chose, c'est que le Mont‑Royal, c'est un parc, donc, la zone de brouillage intense, ou là où on risque d'avoir des gros problèmes, bien...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12092 LE PRÉSIDENT : Est‑ce que le Mont Royal, les tours du Mont‑Royal souffrent encore de problèmes de sécurité?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12093 M. FRÉCHETTE : Du Code 6?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12094 LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12095 M. FRÉCHETTE : Pas à l'endroit où on a fait le projet.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12096 LE PRÉSIDENT : Pas à l'endroit où le projet serait...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12097 M. FRÉCHETTE : Non, surtout aux puissances dont on parle. On parle de petites puissances, donc... D'ailleurs, le projet tel qu'on l'a présenté a été accepté, ces études là ont été faites.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12098 LE PRÉSIDENT : Ces études‑là ont déjà été réalisées, donc, c'est acceptable... ce serait sur la tour de Radio‑Canada ou sur l'autre tour?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12099 M. FRÉCHETTE : Non, de Bell, la tour de Bell.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12100 LE PRÉSIDENT : Sur la tour de Bell.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12101 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12102 LE PRÉSIDENT : Et Bell va procéder à des...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12103 M. FRÉCHETTE : Non, c'est‑à‑dire nous, on doit...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12104 LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous avez fait une... des simulations?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12105 M. FRÉCHETTE : Non, mais quand on présente un projet comme ça, il faut présenter au ministère un calcul qui montre qu'on ne dépasse pas les normes. Donc, ce projet est irrecevable si on ne présente pas ce calcul‑là. Il a été fait.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12106 LE PRÉSIDENT : Il a été fait, puis...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12107 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12108 LE PRÉSIDENT : ...je vois aux notes du dossier que le ministère consent à approuver le...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12109 M. FRÉCHETTE : Vous voyez, nous, l'avantage de ‑‑ je dirais, la beauté de ce projet‑là, c'est que, avec le 105.1, on a fait nos armes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12110 Puis autant du côté signal, je dirais, site, par exemple, on connaît bien le site, on est là déjà.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12111 Puis autant du côté deuxième adjacent, puisqu'il y a un deuxième adjacent, qui est la petite station de Radio‑Canada à 104,7, qui est juste à côté, et qui est un deuxième adjacent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12112 Donc, on connaît déjà, je dirais, le fonctionnement. Puis, en plus, ce ne sont pas des sites qui sont au même endroit.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12113 LE PRÉSIDENT : Ça, le 104,7, c'est celui que Radio‑Canada voulait installer au coin de Sherbrooke et Cavendish?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12114 M. FRÉCHETTE : Qu'il a installé.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12115 LE PRÉSIDENT : Qu'il a installé?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12116 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12117 LE PRÉSIDENT : Puis là, il est rendu sur le Mont‑Royal?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12118 M. FRÉCHETTE : Non, non, non. Non, non. C'est que, justement, c'est un bel exemple de... ce n'est pas au même site.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12119 LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous n'êtes pas co localisés?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12120 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui. Je cherchais le mot là. C'est ça.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12121 LE PRÉSIDENT : C'est ça, bon, vous n'êtes pas co localisés.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12122 M. FRÉCHETTE : C'est ça.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12123 LE PRÉSIDENT : O.K. Et ça fonctionne bien parce que c'est un deuxième adjacent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12124 M. FRÉCHETTE : On vit avec depuis trois ans maintenant, puis...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12125 LE PRÉSIDENT : Et ni un ni l'autre ne rapporte de problème de brouillage qui...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12126 M. FRÉCHETTE : Je pense qu'on peut dire que...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12127 LE PRÉSIDENT : ...autre que ceux qui étaient prévus dans...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12128 M. FRÉCHETTE : Je vais vous dire quelque chose, quand on a commencé le 105.1... d'ailleurs, c'est toujours le problème de ces petites fréquences‑là, ou ces petites puissances‑là plutôt, on se demande toujours ce que ça va donner, hein, parce qu'il y a plusieurs années, on n'aurait même pas imaginé présenter un projet ici avec 200‑300 watts, ça aurait été un peu risible même.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12129 Mais là, on l'a fait à 105,1. Le signal a été assez surprenant, et, à mon avis, une des raisons, c'est le Mont‑Royal. Puis ce qui nous inquiétait encore plus, avec ça, il y avait non seulement la petite puissance, mais il y avait le 104,7 juste à côté, qu'on avait accepté...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12130 MS GRIFFITHS: De vivre avec.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12131 M. FRÉCHETTE : On avait accepté de vivre avec. On s'était dit, évidemment, ça plus de chance de fonctionner si on accepte. Puis trois ans d'opération, puis ça marche.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12132 LE PRÉSIDENT : Puis Radio‑Canada...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12133 M. FRÉCHETTE : A ma connaissance, il ne s'en est pas plaint là.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12134 LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous le sauriez?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12135 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12136 LE PRÉSIDENT : Ils sont rapides pour le dire?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12137 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui, oui. D'ailleurs, ils ont fait les mesures et tout ça. Puis, d'ailleurs, ça été très intéressant comme référence. On a des choses concrètes là. On ne parle pas de quelque chose qui est peut‑être, probablement, et caetera. On sait ce que ça donne. Donc, c'est un peu dans le même esprit qu'on a monté ce projet‑là.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12138 LE PRÉSIDENT : Et vous dites que le brouillage, si brouillage il y a, il est immédiatement dans le parc, donc, il n'affectera aucun auditeur?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12139 M. FRÉCHETTE : Moins, disons. Il y a ceux qui se promènent là.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12140 LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui, oui, évidemment là, qui...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12141 M. FRÉCHETTE : Mais même là, je vais vous dire, j'ai été surpris personnellement. Vous savez, on fait des études théoriques, puis on va dans le champ, souvent les études théoriques sont plus sévères que la réalité. Puis moi, ça ne m'inquiète pas, en tout cas.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12142 LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous n'êtes pas sans savoir, puis vous en exploiter un deuxième adjacent, que certains récepteurs sont plus sensibles aux interférences, notamment, les récepteurs de basse qualité, les récepteurs portables, les réveille‑matin.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12143 Est‑ce que vous pensez que cela a une incidence potentielle sur votre auditoire, le fait que cette catégorie de récepteur serait susceptible à ne pas recevoir, effectivement, le signal?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12144 Il y a quand même, dans le parc, des récepteurs, et c'est un nombre assez absolu...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12145 M. FRÉCHETTE : Important.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12146 LE PRÉSIDENT : ...important. Ce n'est pas tout le monde qui a des Bosch et des appareils Harmon Kardon.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12147 M. FRÉCHETTE : Bien là, comme je vous dis, actuellement, ça fonctionne. Moi, je dirais, le principal handicap, ce n'est pas tellement le deuxième adjacent, c'est la puissance, c'est des problèmes... Puis, comme je vous dis aussi, c'est qu'on est sur le Mont‑Royal, puis ça fonctionne bien.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12148 C'est le fait qu'on n'a pas beaucoup de signal qui pourrait être un handicap au départ, mais aujourd'hui, on a une assurance qu'on n'avait pas même il y a trois ans quand on a présenté l'autre projet en disant... On disait, bon, 200‑300 watts, est‑ce que ça va être bon, est‑ce que ça va fonctionner même? Puis là, ça fonctionne bien.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12149 C'est vrai que, à 100 000 watts, on serait mieux. C'est vrai que si on n'avait pas de deuxième adjacent, on serait mieux aussi. Mais ça fonctionne.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12150 LE PRÉSIDENT : Puis le 105,1, quelle est la puissance de cette...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12151 M. FRÉCHETTE : C'est du même ordre. C'est une centaine de watts, moyen là, puis 300 watts, 200‑300 watts rayonnés.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12152 LE PRÉSIDENT : Donc, c'est des... on parle de...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12153 M. FRÉCHETTE : De petites...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12154 LE PRÉSIDENT : ...de puissances comparables entre...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12155 M. FRÉCHETTE : Tout à fait.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12156 LE PRÉSIDENT : Tout à fait.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12157 M. FRÉCHETTE : Tout à fait.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12158 LE PRÉSIDENT : Et quel territoire, réellement, ça dessert sur... parce que la carte, vous l'avez dit tantôt, entre la pratique et la théorie là...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12159 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui. Mais je vais... mais j'aurais le goût de laisser parler Marie là dessus parce que c'est eux qui reçoivent les...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12160 Mais moi, personnellement, de ce que j'ai vu, c'est qu'on réussit à faire, je dirais, l'île de Montréal, peut‑être pas vers l'ouest là complètement, parce que quand on dit l'île de Montréal, c'est peut‑être un peu grand là, mais... je ne sais pas. Marie.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12161 MS GRIFFITHS: Yes. First of all, we have to tell you we were pleasantly surprised with the coverage we got. I don't think for a minute ‑‑ and I am not an engineer ‑‑ had he not installed it the way he did at the mountain, at the height we are.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12162 I learned a lot of things from him. You could have 2 watts and be four miles up in the sky and you could cover half the world. So it wasn't so much the number as the location and the quality.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12163 We reach all of the west Island. We go as far as ‑‑ when I drive to Ottawa, up to Hawkesbury I can hear 105.1. We hear it in L'Estrie. It comes in loud and clear in Dorion/Valleyfield, for example. It goes all the way up north past Saint‑Sauveur.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12164 People ask us: What are you broadcasting at, 10,000 watts? So there is no more shame in saying we have 300 watts. It is what you get at the end of the day. The proof is in the pudding. We have a great signal, a tight, good, clear signal, sir.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12165 THE CHAIRPERSON: So if I am just looking at the community you are looking to serve, where they are located your signal will reach them?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12166 MS GRIFFITHS: Sir, it reaches further than we even thought but you are perfectly right when you say there are certain receivers ‑‑ for example, we have a small area of two blocks around Descaries ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12167 M. FRÉCHETTE : C'est ça.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12168 MS GRIFFITHS: ‑‑ remember, at Queen Mary, where for some reason the reception is not good.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12169 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui, c'est ce que j'allais dire. C'est que la radiodiffusion, vous savez, on pourrait dire probablement qu'à Saint‑Sauveur, ça rentre ou à des endroits... mais l'idée, c'est de rentrer partout dans la région visée.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12170 C'est certain que si on faisait une étude, on arriverait à un taux peut‑être de 70‑80 pour cent, quelque chose comme ça. Ce n'est pas 100 pour cent, puis ce n'est sûrement pas équivalent aux autres stations de 100 000 watts, mais c'est vivable, c'est viable.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12171 LE PRÉSIDENT : Monsieur Fréchette, comme vous savez, le Conseil, en décembre dernier, en révisant sa politique sur la bande L, a conclu que peut‑être qu'il y avait d'autres technologies qui pouvaient être susceptibles de numériser le signal et que les Canadiens seraient intéressés à cet autre type de technologie.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12172 Une que le Conseil a dit accepter, dans la mesure où Industrie Canada la normalise, c'est la technologie in‑band on‑channel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12173 Or, si cette technologie se voit introduite au Canada, est‑ce que vous avez des plans pour introduire le IBOC sur la station que vous demandez aujourd'hui?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12174 M. FRÉCHETTE : Écoutez, à mon avis, ça serait une très bonne chose pour ces petites stations là d'introduire des technologies comme ça, parce que ça a l'avantage, de ce que j'ai lu sur ça... parce que je dois dire que j'en ai jamais implanté personnellement au Canada, évidemment, parce que ce n'est pas autorisé encore, mais j'espère que ça viendra, ou l'autre aussi, d'ailleurs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12175 LE PRÉSIDENT : Mais je sais que vous voyagez à travers le monde, donc...
‑‑‑ Rires / Laughter
LISTNUM 1 \l 12176 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui. En fait, je ne pense pas que ça soit en Europe non plus, ni en Afrique.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12177 Mais là, vous m'avez... j'ai perdu le fil là.
‑‑‑ Rires / Laughter
LISTNUM 1 \l 12178 LE PRÉSIDENT : On parlait de l'introduction du IBOC et puis des problèmes que vous anticiperiez.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12179 M. FRÉCHETTE : Non, mais en fait, je...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12180 LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous venez juste de dire que, à votre avis, ça serait une excellente...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12181 M. FRÉCHETTE : C'est ça. En fait, je trouve... en premier lieu, je trouve que ça serait une excellente chose pour les petites stations qui ont une centaine de watts, parce qu'il s'avère que ça augmente leur territoire, ça permet d'aller rejoindre des... parce que le digital a besoin de moins de signal pour atteindre une qualité intéressante.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12182 C'est la même chose qu'en télévision, c'est‑à‑dire... et plus, disons, à l'abris des interférences. Donc, ça permet de couvrir un territoire meilleur... un meilleur territoire.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12183 Par ailleurs, c'est certain que la technologie IBOC, ce qu'ils ont fait, c'est qu'ils ajoutent une porteuse digitale aux extrémités de la bande FM, qui, normalement, est réservée à la bande FM, ce qui fait qu'elle devient pratiquement... l'espacement entre les canaux est très, très... en fait, il reste 4 kilohertz, qui n'est pas beaucoup.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12184 Bon, à première vue, on pourrait dire ça pose problème. Ce que j'ai lu là‑dessus... il y une étude dont j'ai une copie ici, ou enfin juste un résumé, qui montre que pour le deuxième adjacent et même pour le premier adjacent, l'effet n'est pas significatif.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12185 MME GRIFFITHS : Du IBOC.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12186 M. FRÉCHETTE : Du IBOC, c'est ça.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12187 Donc, en autres mots là, si je résume, c'est que si les deux stations opèrent le IBOC, ça ne va pas affecter leur signal analogique, deux stations, deuxième adjacent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12188 LE PRÉSIDENT : Si je comprends bien, il faudrait... est‑ce qu'il faut que les deux stations se transforment au IBOC au même moment...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12189 M. FRÉCHETTE : Non.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12190 LE PRÉSIDENT : ...ou une peut le faire, puis l'autre décider de ne pas le faire?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12191 M. FRÉCHETTE : Absolument. Ce dont je parle, c'est le signal analogique là, c'est‑à‑dire...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12192 LE PRÉSIDENT : Ah! bon.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12193 M. FRÉCHETTE : Les deux stations sont en signal analogique...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12194 LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12195 M. FRÉCHETTE : ...c'est‑à‑dire le signal conventionnel qu'on connaît.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12196 LE PRÉSIDENT : Oui.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12197 M. FRÉCHETTE : Une décide d'aller en IBOC, ça ne dérange pas l'autre en signal analogique. Les deux décident, ça ne dérange pas l'autre non plus.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12198 Ils ont fait des tests avec des récepteurs. Ils ont mis le IBOC, ils l'ont enlevé, puis ils ont demandé aux gens d'évaluer la qualité, puis les résultats sont, ce qu'ils disent, non‑significatifs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12199 LE PRÉSIDENT : Non‑significatifs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12200 M. FRÉCHETTE : C'est ce que j'ai lu. Il y a une étude du NRSC américain sur ça.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12201 LE PRÉSIDENT : Est‑ce que vous accepteriez de partager votre étude avec le Conseil?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12202 M. FRÉCHETTE : Bien, oui. Bien, comme je vous dis, ça 60 pages, mais...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12203 LE PRÉSIDENT : Vous avez un sommaire?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12204 M. FRÉCHETTE : Je vais vous le lire... non, non.
‑‑‑ Rires / Laughter
LISTNUM 1 \l 12205 M. FRÉCHETTE : Non, bien c'est‑à‑dire ce que j'ai retenu, c'est, d'abord, la page couverture, puis deux tableaux, finalement.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12206 Bien, les tableaux les plus significatifs, c'est celui qui parle... il y a deux tableaux sur le deuxième adjacent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12207 LE PRÉSIDENT : Mais si vous acceptiez de laisser une copie à la secrétaire...
LISTNUM 1 \l 12208 M. FRÉCHETTE : Oui.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12209 LE PRÉSIDENT : ...de l'audience, puis elle s'assurera de partager les informations avec le personnel et les membres du Conseil.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12210 Madame Griffiths, Monsieur Fréchette, ça termine mes questions. Je vous remercie pour ce matin.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12211 M. FRÉCHETTE : Merci.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12212 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mrs. Secretary, we will move to the next item.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12213 LA SECRÉTAIRE : Merci, Monsieur le président.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12214 We will now proceed with item 15 on the agenda which is an application by Neeti P. Ray, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated, for a licence to operate a commercial specialty FM (ethnic radio) station in Montréal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12215 The new station would operate on frequency 106.3 MHz (channel 292A) an average effective radiated power of 324 watts (maximum effective radiated power of 1,200 watts/antenna height of 198.9 metres).
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 12216 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Ray, when you are ready.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12217 THE SECRETARY: Please introduce your colleagues and you will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation. Thank you.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
LISTNUM 1 \l 12218 MR. RAY: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12219 Mr. Chairman, Commissioner French and Commissioner Cram, good morning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12220 It is with a sense of pride and commitment that we appear before you today seeking approval to establish an over‑the‑air ethnic FM radio broadcasting undertaking on 106.3 FM in Montreal and before I do that I take this opportunity to introduce my panel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12221 On my right is Dr. Ralph Agard. Dr. Agard has been the Director of Human Rights and Equity at the University of Guelph and taught graduate study Faculty of Social Work Cultural Diversity at the University of Toronto.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12222 On my left and on your right is Julia Ciamarra. She is a long‑time Montrealer who has been a community activist for the past many years in Montreal's Hungarian community in particular and has brought her ethnic mosaic in general. Julia is also a member of our proposed board of directors.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12223 On Julia's left is Rita Simon. She is an event organizer in Montreal's Hungarian community, a Hungarian teacher who also used to teach English in Budapest, Hungary, before migrating to Montreal in 1982, and Rita is part of the proposed Montreal station's advisory council.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12224 Before I start I must apologize that yesterday we had kind of a miscalculation of the timing and we thought we would be certainly up yesterday. As a result, two of our panel members, Mr. Khanna and Mr. Chadda, who had taken the day off from their work, unfortunately, were unable to do that today unless they lose their job.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12225 Also, our engineer, Mr. Peter Cahn, because of his heath and his age and the fact that he recently had heart surgery was unable to make it back but, fortunately, Mr. Jim Moltner, who is behind me, will be representing us in place of Mr. Cahn.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12226 I should also take this opportunity to thank very much Mr. Jeff Lutes of International Harvesters who will be making a presentation later today for having allowed his engineer, Mr. Moltner, to speak on our behalf.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12227 Now to start the formal part of our presentation, Mr. Chairman and commissioners.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12228 Montreal today stands as the third largest and most culturally diverse urban centre in Canada. It remains one of the last major markets where a significant number of third‑language communities remain without any over‑the‑air radio service in their respective mother tongues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12229 In fact, when you consider the national South‑Asian listening audience of Canada's three largest diverse urban centres, Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal, Montreal remains the only one without any dedicated FM service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12230 In addition, 14 of Montreal's diverse third‑language communities have no programming hours available to them from any commercial radio station and three language groups are very underserved.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12231 Based on our consultations with local third‑language consumers, the need and demand for our proposed new ethnic FM radio station is abundantly clear and is overdue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12232 Consistent with our findings of the need for dedicated ethnic radio programming services for the region's multicultural communities that we propose to serve, we draw your attention, commissioners, to two letters to the Commission by Montreal organizations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12233 The past president of India‑Canada Association, Mr. Bhargav, stated:
"An important element in an immigrant community's growth is access to local information, local and homeland news and interaction about who we are and how we feel about our lives in Canada. Radio plays the most important role in providing access to all of the above. Unlike larger ethnic communities and the mainstream population, the South‑Asian and many other communities have very little or no radio service that they can enjoy and benefit from."
LISTNUM 1 \l 12234 Rita.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12235 MS SIMON: Another national organization based in Montreal, the Hungarian Canadian Chamber of Commerce, also wrote to the Commission reinforcing the long‑held Canadian government policy on integration wherein the maintenance of cultural identity is an essential part of shaping the national Canadian identity and we quote:
"Our people are hard‑working Canadians. When they will hear radio programs in Hungarian it will further reinforce the deep cultural values that we all came to Canada with. Our children will benefit the most. It will revitalize community activities as well as help the business community in its prosperity."
LISTNUM 1 \l 12236 The proposed Montreal radio station's inclusive approach to serving 20 cultural communities in 17 languages is both necessary and desirable. Given that 14 out of these 17 languages have no service on existing commercial radio stations and three have a mere 30 to 90 minutes per week of radio programming, the obvious need, we argue, can only be met by a new multicultural station entering the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12237 MR. RAY: As experienced ethnic broadcasters we know the true value of third‑language radio programming to multicultural communities. We are all those communities. We immigrated to Canada and have lived the experience of trying to find our way and fit into the new way of life as Canadians and we have witnessed the importance that a permanent radio voice holds for Canada's multicultural communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12238 In the words of Dr. Reikov(ph) of the Clarke Institute of Psychiatry:
"A transition to a new culture is made more easily by people who come with a strong sense of their ethnic identity."
LISTNUM 1 \l 12239 Eminent Canadian sociologist Raymond Britain has in his research on the acculturation process of immigrants pointed out:
"Beside religious institutions, it is radio programs that have the most important effect on an immigrant's interpersonal network."
LISTNUM 1 \l 12240 Given these well‑researched needs of immigrants and our experience that an ethnic radio station in essence becomes part of the extended family that immigrants have left behind, we have opted to serve as many third‑language communities as possible without compromising on the quality of programming and the quantity of time allocated to each language group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12241 Given the existing multilingual radio station configuration in Montreal, it is our firm belief that in approving our application the Commission will therefore gain comfort in the fact that those we propose to serve would not otherwise receive third‑language programming and others in our pool would not otherwise be able to in the near future mount the combination of community and private resources to generate over‑the‑air services in their third language.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12242 Apart from the South‑Asian community, these would be Vietnamese, Indo‑Caribbean, Cambodian, Turkish, Afghan, Lao, Korean, Ghanaian, Hungarian, Czech, Slovak and Bulgarian.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12243 This is consistent with the principles of the Commission's Ethnic Broadcasting Policy. At the same time such an approval also calls for a nation‑building use of the last Montreal FM frequency.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12244 In a sense, licensing our proposed use of 106.3 FM will fill in the missing link within Montréal's otherwise well‑rounded local programming spectrum.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12245 Ralph...?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12246 DR. AGARD: Turning to community and business enhancements. Chair and Commissioners, the licensing of the proposed Montréal radio station in 106.3 FM will introduce to Montréal an historic first time, third language ethnic programming service to 14 multilingual, multicultural communities representing more than 150,000 third language Canadians and significantly enhance services to the Hindu, Urdu and Punjabi speaking and Vietnamese communities who have very little programming available in Montréal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12247 MR. RAY: More specifically, the proposed station will, among many key considerations, achieve the following:
LISTNUM 1 \l 12248 ‑ provide first‑time locally relevant community programming to 20 ethnocultural communities in their own heritage languages;
LISTNUM 1 \l 12249 ‑ greatly enhance the level of programming diversity and listener choice within the Montréal region by introducing ethnic programming elements that do not exist on local radio;
LISTNUM 1 \l 12250 ‑ invest a minimum of $500,000 in direct and indirect expenditures on the development of Canadian content and promotion and on‑air exposure of emerging local, ethnic Canadian talent, an important new diversity to the ownership ranks of ethnic broadcasting in Montréal;
LISTNUM 1 \l 12251 ‑ train and develop a new generation of ethnic broadcasters to serve the multicultural communities within the region;
LISTNUM 1 \l 12252 ‑ provide Montréal's ethnic business owners with a cost‑effective radio advertising vehicle to target and serve specific third language communities;
LISTNUM 1 \l 12253 ‑ beneficially attract new listeners and increase hours of tuning to local radio without impacting on existing radio stations;
LISTNUM 1 \l 12254 ‑ generate new radio dollars from Montréal's various unserved ethnic business communities with very minimal impact, if any, on existing radio stations; and
LISTNUM 1 \l 12255 ‑ create important new employment opportunities for ethnic broadcasters within the Montréal radio market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12256 Ralph...?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12257 DR. AGARD: Building our broadcasting undertaking.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12258 We have attempted to build a contemporary broadcasting service which also facilitates the implementation of the Commission's new thrust in fulfilling the principles of the Broadcasting Act. Our goal has been to create a radio station that meaningfully addresses and reflects Montréal's ethnicity and the needs of underserved communities by giving them a voice.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12259 In coming to this conclusion, we believe that the design of the proposed station must optimize utilization of the 106.3 MHz frequency and reaching out to serve the 20 unserved and largely underserved communities in 17 different languages within the greater Montréal area. Our proposal does just that rather than proposing service to any of the already well served language groups.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12260 Mindful of the Commission's ethnic policy on local reflection which emphasizes a primary responsibility of over‑the‑air ethnic stations to serve their local communities, we have designed our programming to do just that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12261 By way of example, on our morning drive show, The Punjabi Voice, on weekdays there will be the news reflecting the happenings within the local, South Asian and other Montréal communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12262 From 8:30 to 9:00 a.m. each weekday morning there will be interviews and open line discussions with an emphasis on Montréal's South Asian community and issues important to them such as social, political and health issues.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12263 Similarly, the afternoon program in Hindustani will feature local news, interviews, local guests like a musician, a politician, a youth, a woman activist or a social worker.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12264 Neeti...?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12265 MR. RAY: Chair and Commissioners, in serving 20 communities we are sensitive to the challenge of balancing quantitative needs of a large unserved ethnic population with the all‑important qualitative considerations. We are mindful of the Commission's Ethnic Broadcasting Policy and Public Notice CRTC 1999‑117 which states in part:
"A balance may be struck between two priorities serving as many groups as practical and providing high‑quality programming to those groups that are served."
LISTNUM 1 \l 12266 The proposed Montréal radio station shares the Commission's insistence on quality programming, since achieving the highest quality possible has always been our benchmark and the key to our success in producing world‑class multicultural programs in Edmonton and in Toronto. This quest for high‑quality programming is essential to the proposed radio stations opting for a combination of station‑produced programs and brokered and non‑staff‑produced programs that would operate within the same guidelines as the staff‑produced programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12267 In achieving and maintaining a high quality programming service for each of the 17 language groups, the proposed Montréal radio station has a number of important tools at its disposal, including:
LISTNUM 1 \l 12268 (1) an ongoing commitment to training both in‑house and institutionally of both staff and non‑staff producers;
LISTNUM 1 \l 12269 (2) the allocation of quality time slots to each community regardless of size across the 6:00 a.m. to 12 midnight regulated portion of the broadcast day; and
LISTNUM 1 \l 12270 (e) an independent advisory council composed of representative members from the various ethnic cultural communities will, among other responsibilities, monitor the programming and advise and recommend changes and improvements to further enhance the quality and level of service provided to each language group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12271 We have structured our proposed broadcasting schedule to ensure that each language group has a minimum of four hours of programming per week of those allocated weekend time slots, and minimum of five hours per week for those groups allocated weekly time slots.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12272 Julia...?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12273 MS CIAMARRA: Chair and Commissioners, from the many consultations that we conducted with third language groups throughout the Montréal region, the message was loud and clear: they wanted locally relevant programming that reflected the news, activities and events, current affairs, local talent, music and a host of other undertakings that were important to the respective communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12274 In addition to the local community focus, there was a strong desire for news, information and music from their homelands. The proposed Montréal radio station will give the 17 third language communities what they want: locally relevant, locally produced community‑driven programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12275 MR. RAY: Supplementing the local programming components will be news and information from the home countries of the ethnic communities as provided by such international broadcast news organizations as Voice of America, the British Broadcasting Corporation, All India Radio, Radio Pakistan, Trinidad And Tobago Broadcasting Corporation, Radio Korea, Voice of Vietnam, Guyana Broadcasting Corporation, et cetera.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12276 Chair and Commissioners, in keeping with the Commission's policy regarding Canadian content development as set out in Public Notice 2006‑158, approval of this application for the proposed Montréal radio station will greatly benefit Canadian ethnic talent within the Montréal region.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12277 As detailed in our application, the proposed station is committed to spend a minimum of $150,000 in direct expenditures and $350,000 in indirect on‑air talent promotion initiatives over the initial seven‑year term of the licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12278 Dr. Agard...?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12279 DR. AGARD: In formulating our Canadian content development proposals we have kept in mind the commercial radio policy 2006 and its Canadian content development assertions. It was therefore important to keep in mind that the proposed Montréal radio station, if licensed, will become the first ethnic radio service provider for 14 language groups and one that will radically enhance the services to the South Asian and Vietnamese communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12280 As such, the proposed radio station's priority is to ensure that its talent development proposals will be utilized in an equitable and inclusive fashion across the region's multicultural population.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12281 The direct expenditure initiatives within our Canadian content development proposals will, in our view, achieve that goal. The proposed a CCD initiatives and the amounts of contribution over the seven years of the term of the licence are as follows: the station grants program, $66,000; annual ethnic broadcaster scholarship fund, $66,000; and on‑air ethnic talent contest, $18,000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12282 While the first year total for the direct expenditure initiatives is $10,000 and the second is $15,000, in subsequent years three through seven the proposed Montréal radio station will increase its direct expenditures on the above projects to $25,000 per annum, bringing the total to $150,000 over the first licence term.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12283 It is our view that the combined total of $500,000 in direct and indirect expenditures over seven years will be a profoundly beneficial impact on the lives and careers of developing ethnic Canadian talent within the Montréal region.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12284 MR. RAY: Chair and Commissioners, the Montréal radio market demonstrates a clear opportunity for the proposed ethnic radio station on 106.3 FM, because Montréal market revenues of all AM and FM radio stations were at a healthy level in the past few years. In 2005 the total revenue of all commercial radio stations in Montréal was $138 million, up from $126 million in 2004, and is expected to grow to over $150 million in 2007.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12285 Also, local and national demand for FM airtime continues to grow.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12286 Commissioners, please permit me to summarize. The proposed Montréal radio station's programming services to 20 multicultural communities in 17 different languages will attract new listeners and increase hours of tuning to FM from targeted and unserved ethnic communities. This increased listenership and hours tuned to FM will not come at the expense of other Montréal radio stations. This is because the third language communities targeted by the proposed new Montréal radio station are mostly unserved.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12287 Approval of the proposed Montréal radio station's application will result in new radio dollars being attracted to Montréal's FM sector, with minimal impact on existing broadcasters, because our revenue will accrue largely from ethnic businesses interested in effectively reaching those unserved third language communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12288 With a revenue of $700,000 in year one, going up to $1 million in year seven, the proposed Montréal radio station's projected dollar share of the Montréal radio market will be at about 0.5 percent in year one and remain below 1 percent in year seven.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12289 We would also like to point out that the proposed Montréal radio station's sources of revenue would accrue as follows: 10 percent from local market radio station; 15 percent from increased budgets of existing radio advertisers; 40 percent from new advertisers; and about 35 percent would be repatriated from other media.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12290 In the final analysis, the long‑term outlook for the economy of the Montréal area is excellent and the proposed FM radio station can realistically set a revenue target of $700,000 in its first year of operation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12291 Licensing this radio station will allow the significant synergies that will flow from our Mississauga radio undertaking licensed in Decision 2007‑117. Similar to the proposed Montréal radio station, our Mississauga radio station's programming orientation is set to be predominantly South Asian.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12292 Dr. Agard...?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12293 DR. AGARD: Chair and Commissioners, the proposed Montréal radio station's ethnic broadcasting plan for 106.3 FM fully meets the spirit and intent of the Broadcasting Act and the Commission's Ethnic Broadcasting Policy. From our perspective, it represents the most comprehensive and productive utilization of the 106.3 FM frequency.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12294 With respect to radio broadcasting, Canada's third language communities and their ever‑growing need for basic radio service is on a collision course with an almost depleted source of usable public broadcasting frequencies. Hence, those few remaining viable frequencies must be utilized to their optimum advantage in reaching and serving the unserved and the underserved.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12295 In seeking the Commission's approval for 106.3 FM, we would underline that its utilization of the frequency would be maximized through the extension of the first ethnic FM service to 14 third language communities and much more enhanced services to three language groups representing 150,000 unserved and underserved third language Canadians living within the greater Montréal area.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12296 The proposed Montréal radio station's majority owners, Mr. and Mrs. Ray, are no strangers to Canadian broadcasting or the Commission. They are highly experienced career ethnic broadcasters who bring a fresh perspective, new ideas and approaches, new energies and commitment, and an acute sensitivity to Montréal's multicultural reality.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12297 They have the broadly based support of Montréal's diverse ethnocultural communities who, in themselves, are determined to fully optimize this opportunity to gain an ethnic radio voice of their own on the radio waves. There is little risk in licensing this proposal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12298 MR. RAY: Together, Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, we respectfully ask for your approval for 106.3 FM.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12299 Thank you very much for the opportunity, Chair, and I and my colleagues will be ready for your questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12300 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Ray. Thank you to the Members of your Panel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12301 I will direct my questions to you, Mr. Ray, and you may choose to ask one of your colleagues to complement the answer to the question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12302 My first question will be dealing with your programming plans.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12303 I note in reading your application that you are planning up to 121 hours of third language programming, which is about 96 percent of the broadcast week which is devoted to third language programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12304 Doesn't that mean that the five other hours will be either English or in French?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12305 MR. RAY: The five other hours would be in English, targeting the Indo‑Caribbean community, and that will be on weekdays from Monday to Friday from 8:00 to 9:00 p.m.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12306 THE CHAIRPERSON: So one hour each day of the week, and that will be in English but aimed at a specific community?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12307 MR. RAY: It will aim at two specific communities, those who are from ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12308 THE CHAIRPERSON: The Caribbean.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12309 MR. RAY: ‑‑ Guyana and those who are from Trinidad. So two distinct ethnic communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12310 THE CHAIRPERSON: Two distinct communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12311 So does that mean that in the other than 21 hours when you talk about third language, neither one will be French nor English?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12312 MR. RAY: Correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12313 THE CHAIRPERSON: Correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12314 Are you ready to accept that as a condition of licence?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12315 MR. RAY: Yes, I am.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12316 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12317 You have structured an advisory committee. Could you elaborate on that advisory committee?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12318 I understand that some of the members of your advisory committee are with you today. They may also wish to tell us how they see their role, but I will ask you to start with the make‑up of the advisory committee: how the members are selected and how will they be replaced over time and who takes responsibility, what their role is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12319 Are they only giving you advice ‑‑ well, they are advisory, so do they have any specific or direct access to staff? Could you please elaborate on that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12320 MR. RAY: Yes, Mr. Chairman. The Advisory Council, we call it, will be organized in the proposed ethnic radio station in Montréal, if we are fortunate enough to be licensed. The composition of the Council will consist initially of 12 voting members.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12321 I will take this opportunity also to mention, since you asked me, how it was formed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12322 The Advisory Council is not formally formed yet, but once we are licensed, we have a very good idea of who would be the members of that Council. It will consist of the people, different leaders within the various ethnic communities that we have consulted during the period prior to the application last year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12323 For example, I spoke to the President of ‑‑ there is a Lao Organization, the Buddhist Association of Québec, Mr. Thond, and he has agreed to be on the Advisory Council representing the Lao community. We also have the President of the Vietnamese Women's Association of Canada, Mrs. Hoa Truong who will be a member representing the Vietnamese community, and so on and so forth.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12324 There is Cambodian community, Mr. Ong(ph), Turkish Community, Mr. Acom(ph). The Canadian‑Bulgarian Cultural Centre of Zonika(ph), the President Mrs. Bolitska(ph) will be part of the community and Mrs. Belki(ph) from another organization, and the Czech and Slovak community there is Mrs. Walstinova(ph). I spoke to her. I always have problems pronouncing her name, but she was very kind to us and agree to be on the Council.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12325 So that is an overview. There are more members than that. I could go on with the names.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12326 The Council will basically be monitoring the radio station and will give us advice as to whether the radio station is operating within their expectations, are meeting the needs of the community, the various communities. And we do understand that each ethnic community has its own unique needs in various ways. I could elaborate on that as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12327 For example, I found that a couple of communities, Lao community, the Cambodian, I found that they seem to be much less vocal communities even though they agreed to be on the Council. We told them we would certainly like you to monitor what is going on and they said that yes, we would love to do that because there are so many problems back home and our information is very difficult to access about what is going on back home.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12328 So these are the kinds of roles that they will be fulfilling, and hopefully with their feedback from the community we will be able to enhance further as time passes by the quality of the programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12329 Any comments you have, Dr. Agard?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12330 DR. AGARD: I think, Commissioners, the important thing of the Advisory Council would be twofold.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12331 The first, I think we need to mention that its operations will follow the standard advisory committee structure, in that there are no financial interests held by any of its members, that the term is a two‑year term, that it will occur on a rotational basis.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12332 I note that when we first developed the membership we spoke of 12 representatives and I guess the concept at that time was to bring a balance to the language groupings, as well as the involvement of the individual communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12333 You note that there is a small discrepancy between the number of language groups and the membership.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12334 Mr. Ray and I have discussed that in view of that, at an appropriate time it can easily be extended to represent any language group that appears on the broadcasting schedule. I think the initial consultation suggested that since the primary broadcasting languages would belong to a South Asian configuration, then maybe some dual representation might be appropriate.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12335 In the rotating fashion, those of us who work in ethnic communities recognize that some in‑depth consultation is necessary when once you are beginning to identify individuals as representatives of.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12336 And emphasis will also be placed on some youth representation because a significant portion of the broadcasting agenda is music. It is not simply spoken word. So in order to be contemporary and to allow for the involvement of emerging artists, we certainly will be looking towards that involvement.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12337 MR. RAY: Just to answer your last question, Mr. Chairman, the Council membership will be normally for a two‑year term on a rotational basis. The Council members may be recommended by the radio station or the Council Chairman and shall be appointed by the station manager.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12338 The radio station employees may attend Council meetings as required with a view of improving programming services.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12339 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have written bylaws, I can see, because you are reading from a script.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12340 MR. RAY: This application is written by me, so I do go back to some of the points that we raised so it is entirely consistent with the line that I have taken in writing this application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12341 THE CHAIRPERSON: How many times a year will the Advisory Counsel meet?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12342 MR. RAY: Four times a year, every three months.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12343 THE CHAIRPERSON: Who calls the meeting?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12344 MR. RAY: The Chairperson of the Advisory Council would call the meeting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12345 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is responsible. Who makes up the agenda?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12346 MR. RAY: The Chairperson would make the agenda, would work with the station manager, together with the station manager, the management, to prepare the agenda.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12347 THE CHAIRPERSON: Does station staff participate at the Advisory Council? Do they attend, first, and are they sought to participate?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12348 MR. RAY: Yes. They will be encouraged to sit there and listen in, in order to get a feel of what the feedback of the communities have been and what advice has been provided by the Advisory Council.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12349 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will change and talk now about your Canadian content development program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12350 Thank you very much for your comments on the Advisory Council.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12351 Basically it is very straightforward. It is three items.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12352 A money commitment towards the Ethnic Broadcasters Scholarship Fund Initiative. That is already an existing program, the Ethnic Broadcasters Scholarship Fund, or is it something that you would be putting in place?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12353 MR. RAY: This, on behalf of the proposed new FM radio station we will put in place as a new initiative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12354 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is not something that is already taken care of or managed by the Canadian Association of Ethnic Broadcasters.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12355 MR. RAY: No. That is our initiative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12356 THE CHAIRPERSON: That will be your own initiative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12357 MR. RAY: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12358 THE CHAIRPERSON: If I read your application well, you will be essentially helping students in journalism.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12359 MR. RAY: Exactly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12360 THE CHAIRPERSON: Who are registered at Concordia University.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12361 MR. RAY: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12362 THE CHAIRPERSON: You also have a grant program. Can you expand on that grant program?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12363 MR. RAY: Yes. We will have the grants program which a considerable amount of thought has gone into it. The station could most equitably assist emerging talents within these groups by offering the grants program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12364 The amounts have been specified in there which I can reiterate to you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12365 The applicants for the grants program would make the application to an independent jury that would be formulated consisting of Montréal's various ethnic communities, their leaders, the musical talents. Even though the radio station will initiate this initiative and the jury will evaluate each submission by ethnic artist and performance, the station and its management itself and its ownership itself will remain autonomous of the decisions made by that jury.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12366 It is important to underline that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12367 I don't know if that answers your question, but we are very excited about the grants program and its potential to provide direct financial assistance to the broad range of ethnic performers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12368 Dr. Agard...?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12369 DR. AGARD: I think the grants program is modeled after traditional granting opportunities. One of the performance evaluators, not tools but indicators in the station manager's portfolio is twofold. One is really the servicing of the Advisory Council and the other is the administration of the program, the grants program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12370 The responsibility is therefore a managerial responsibility in ensuring that the panel is established, in place and those processes are conducted on an annual basis.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12371 THE CHAIRPERSON: It is not the Advisory Council who makes the ‑‑ at the end of the day it's the jury.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12372 MR. RAY: No. In fact, essentially the station will establish an independent jury. It will consist of a cross‑section of member representatives of the performing arts discipline within the Montréal region. They will meet on a semi‑annual basis and invite ethnic talent to submit applications and we will promote that through the various ethnic communities, their organizations and also on‑air promotion to let the ethnic talents know that we are inviting them to submit applications for financial assistance, whether it is to buy instruments or to cut CDs or whatever else.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12373 THE CHAIRPERSON: They are mainly music driven?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12374 MR. RAY: It will be mainly music driven, yes. It will be mainly music driven, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12375 DR. AGARD: The reason for that is that we believe that the Concordia scholarships will really attract or develop the spoken word component.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12376 THE CHAIRPERSON: Component and the other one will drive the music component.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12377 DR. AGARD: The music, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12378 THE CHAIRPERSON: About your business plan, Mr. Ray, we note that the revenue you have projected seems to us to be somehow a bit aggressive particularly regarding the local advertising revenues. I'm sure you have closely looked into them, but obviously we are privy to all the financials of all the ethnic broadcasters of Montréal and other areas in the country. That has how we can sum up saying that your number seems to be quite aggressive compared with other similar sized operations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12379 Could you tell us how you did arrive at your first year local advertising?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12380 MR. RAY: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12381 THE CHAIRPERSON: And how confident you are in your numbers, because obviously you have strong commitments towards the CCD and I will be concerned down the road about your ability to meet your CCD commitment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12382 MR. RAY: Yes, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12383 To answer that, I must point out first, Mr. Chairman, that the sources of revenue as far as the different ethnic programming segments of this proposed station is concerned are divided into two.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12384 The first is the station‑produced programming ‑‑ that would be predominantly South Asian ‑‑ would generate a total of $440,000 in year one. The balance of the $260,000 would come from the other brokered programs which would be in the non‑South Asian language, or I would say that non‑station produced languages.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12385 Now, let's first look at the $440,000 from the largest group, that is the South Asian community. There are a few things that we kept in mind.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12386 First of all, we know from having of course read the other applications that even a sideband, an SCMO in Montréal, has no problem generating about $220,000 or $225,000 in one year. That is kind of a closed‑circuit radio. An over‑the‑air radio would have a much greater reach, a much wider reach, including in the cars.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12387 The most lucrative time of an over‑the‑air radio station is during the morning and afternoon drive time. That is something that an SCMO cannot take advantage of. That is one element that brings the projected revenue so high.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12388 The other is, the population of the South Asian community in Montréal, a vibrant community, with only one and a half hours, that is 90 minutes of programming, currently available on CFMB, late in the night on Friday half an hour, and late in the night, near midnight, for one hour on Saturday night.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12389 It is an untapped business community and the size of that community in 2001 was approximately 61,000, according to the 2001 Census. In the addendum I have provided the Census data from Stats Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12390 If we look at another market as a comparison, Vancouver has approximately twice the population of the South Asian community that we see in Montréal. The population there is about 122,000 to 125,000, if I remember correctly from 2001. In Vancouver, two radio stations two years ago were licensed simultaneously to serve predominantly the South Asian community of 125,000 people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12391 The number of businesses in Vancouver is approximately twice within the South Asian community of that of Montréal. There are approximately, in our estimation, 700 to 900 businesses within the Montréal South Asian community, including real estate agents, financial services, immigration consultants, dentists, and not only the restaurants and grocery stores and fashion stores, jewellery stores.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12392 The $440,000 per year from the Montréal's affluent business community is therefore easily achievable.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12393 I would go as far as to say that we are confident that this number could be conservative, and we are going to use the resources of the South Asian revenue if necessary to, if I could put it that way, subsidize some of the very small community groups that we propose to serve that may on their own not be able to have either programming or a radio station of their own.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12394 Dr. Agard...?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12395 DR. AGARD: Chair, in terms of third language, visible minority or racial minority communities and business sectors, it has traditionally been difficult to quantify in advance what that potentially is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12396 However, based on other licences that have been granted and have survived in highly racialized minority communities, we feel confident that there are untapped resources in those communities. The South Asian community is a very business‑oriented community and this proposal is really based on precedents in other broadcasting entities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12397 We are relying heavily, as much as 40 percent, on new business, and another 35 percent of that revenue would come from repatriating advertising, particularly from the print media in Montréal where there is a healthy community‑based newsprint, but news organization.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12398 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Agard, you just touched my secondary question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12399 How confident are you? Have you talked to the business community as to how attracted they are by a radio service like yours?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12400 MR. RAY: Yes. I'm glad you asked that question because it brings to light what we found.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12401 Something to keep in mind is also that in our experience, what I have watched over the last 27 years of my experience in radio ‑‑ and if I could just take one minute to give that background to help clarify my next statement ‑‑ in 1979, when I was involved in the licensing process of CKER radio in Edmonton and the radio station went on air, the challenge that we had was the fact that it was the first multicultural radio station in Edmonton and all the advertisers, from of course the various ethnic communities, the ethnic advertisers, were all inexperienced. They had no idea what advertising on radio would be like.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12402 In Montréal, fortunately, the main group, the South Asian market, is quite experienced in advertising on radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12403 Now, having said that, it might come to mind that I said there is no programming available on the radio. Well, there is no over‑the‑air programming available in Montréal except 90 minutes per week, but they have the experience of advertising on the sidebands in Montréal and also in another radio program that was there until a few years ago. I think it was five hours a week on CFMB. That program went off the air quite a few years ago actually.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12404 I lived in Montréal for some time in the late 1970s and the program was on then and also in the 1980s.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12405 But the experience that the South Asian business community has will help us a lot.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12406 When I spoke to some of the groups, whether jewellers or real estate agents, restaurants, fashion stores, they were all very excited about the fact that we could give them the vehicle to advertise on over‑the‑air radio that they could access their clients during drive time. They were very excited about that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12407 To answer your question, to make a long story short, yes, I have a pretty good feel of what the business community would be able to offer to the proposed FM radio station in Montréal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12408 THE CHAIRPERSON: In the eventuality that you don't meet your expected revenue ‑‑ the economics is more problematic than the one you just described and one that you are expecting ‑‑ you have made some commitments regarding the Canadian Content Development program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12409 How would you deal with your commitments? Will you make your payment in accordance with the plan that you have given to us or will you obviously contemplate other alternatives?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12410 MR. RAY: Yes. To answer your question, I was listening to you and I was also looking for the page where I have the statement of changes in cash flow of the station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12411 I would answer that in the affirmative by saying that if we do not meet the target, say during the first, second, third or whatever years, I would point out that with the investment of $600,000 in year one, cash at the end of the year is $472,000 left over. So that is quite a bit more than sufficient to cover any shortfall and we would have no problem fulfilling our obligations vis‑à‑vis the CCD.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12412 As we go on from the first to the seventh year in the projected financial position, we are in very healthy shape.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12413 Once again to say concretely, there is going to be absolutely no problem with this investment to meet those obligations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12414 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Ray.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12415 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: Mr. Ray, you compared the South Asian populations, which is the financial locomotive at least in the first years for your business. You compared the populations of Vancouver and Montréal, and you said Vancouver is roughly twice as much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12416 Do you know ‑‑ and it is a very unfair question and if you can't answer it, it is perfectly normal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12417 But would you know what percentage of the Vancouver South Asian population is Punjabi in origin?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12418 MR. RAY: If you can give me a couple of minutes, I have the numbers with me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12419 But to give you the answer, yes, the majority ‑‑ you said Punjabi.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12420 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: I said Punjabi.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12421 MR. RAY: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12422 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: Do you know where I'm going?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12423 MR. RAY: Yes, I think I know where you are going.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12424 With the Punjabi, there are two Punjabi. Punjabi is the language, so there are two communities, the Sikhs in the Hindus. The majority there would be Punjabi speaking.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12425 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: But it turns out even the Hindu Punjabis are a hell of a lot richer than anybody else.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 12426 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: I lived for nearly four years in India and I learned that India is not a citizenship, it is a world in itself.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12427 The only reason I'm asking you that is that to my sense ‑‑ purely anecdotal, I lived in Montréal for most of my life, but I spent some time in Vancouver, too ‑‑ that the percentage of Punjabis in Montréal, even in half the South Asian community, would be far lower than it is in Vancouver. Is that fair?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12428 MR. RAY: The Punjabi population in Montréal in proportion would still be the largest.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12429 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: It would be the largest?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12430 MR. RAY: Yes, it would be the largest. Next to that would be the non‑Punjabis like the Tamils and the Bengali‑speaking who are about ‑‑ Bengali speaking, surprisingly when you see the numbers, is about 12,000 including those who are Bengali speaking from India and Bengali speaking from Bangladesh. It is exactly the same language.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12431 Then the Tamil speaking, approximately 8,500.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12432 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: I will tell you where I'm going with it just for what it's worth, and you may or may not buy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12433 It seems to me that the Montréal South Asian community is more professional and less business oriented than the Vancouver South Asian community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12434 If you tell me I'm wrong or you tell me you are banking on the fact that I am wrong, fine.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12435 You know, professionals don't advertise. University professors, doctors don't advertise. Waiters in Indian restaurants don't advertise.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12436 I'm just fishing a little to see whether you have considered these ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12437 MR. RAY: Before I let Dr. Agard further elaborate on that, I will tell you something else very interesting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12438 The professionals who do not advertise, and the doctors who don't advertise, they do eat Indian food and wear Indian clothes and they do travel a lot to India and Pakistan.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12439 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: They are consumers. They are consumers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12440 MR. RAY: They are big consumers and you need many establishments to fulfil their needs. For example, the number of restaurants in Montréal would not be much less, not significantly less than in Vancouver. Maybe a bit less in proportion, I'm not sure, but I guess pretty close.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12441 But the number of jewellers, the number of those who sell Indian clothes, saris and the Punjabi suits, would be the same in proportion. The mediation consultants would be the same in proportion.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12442 So to answer your question, that is not entirely right but it is true that Montréal population is more professional and the Vancouver South Asian population is ‑‑ well, it is a combination of, you know, highly educated professionals as well as maybe those who are in different trades.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12443 DR. AGARD: I don't think I have much to add to Mr. Ray's comment, except to note that if we follow the lead of the print media in the language community, a large number of service providers advertise because the metropolis is so large that they do need to have a vehicle to bring those, not necessarily audiences but consumers directly to their door.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12444 So I think that is a unique configuration in racial minorities in language markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12445 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12446 As you noted, in Montréal there is already an SCMO that is providing South Asian programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12447 MR. RAY: I'm sorry, I lost you on the last few words. Can you kindly ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12448 THE CHAIRPERSON: There is an SCMO operator that is currently broadcasting towards the South Asian population.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12449 How would your proposed service impact on Radio Humsafar?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12450 MR. RAY: How would the proposed radio station, if licensed, have an impact on the SCMOs?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12451 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, exactly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12452 MR. RAY: It would have some impact on the SCMO, but I would explain why it will not have a significant impact, not so significant that they would not remain viable. It is also from watching SCMOs elsewhere in Canada, including Toronto and Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12453 SCMO is more like a subscription service and you have to sell the radio sets to the community that you serve. Many thousand sets, I presume, have been sold to consumers who would continue to listen to them, number one, during times that they are not able to listen to South Asian programming; so 8 o'clock onward, because 8 to 9 o'clock we do have programming Monday to Friday that is catering to the Indo‑Caribbean community who look like us, they eat the same food, they dress like us and they sing the same songs. So the South Asians would be able to relate very well to that programming segment because most of the music is also from Bollywood.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12454 But from that point on to the morning we do not have South Asian programming, so the only way that the Montréal South Asian community would be able to access some South Asian programming would be through the SCMO.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12455 As a result, they would become complementary to us, or we would become complementary to them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12456 All weekend we do not have any South Asian programming proposed and therefore the SCMO would thrive during the weekends.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12457 We have to settle with the idea that we would not be able to get across to the South Asian community during the weekend. SCMO would be the only way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12458 The other thing is that in the Montréal market where there are a number of radio stations over the air providing South Asian programming and still there are right now four Tamil SCMOs and one fulltime Punjabi language SCMO. The Punjabi has been doing extremely well. Two of the Tamil SCMOs, I know the three parties well. The two Tamil SCMOs are also doing very well. I know it is a very large market, but at the same time not one, but almost like five SCMOs going on at the same time and surviving.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12459 The same thing in Vancouver: two fulltime over‑the‑air radio stations, predominantly South Asian. In addition to that, there are two fulltime, 24‑hour over‑the‑air radio stations on the U.S. side of the border, on 1400 and 1650 AM, that 24 hours they are broadcasting to Vancouver. The studios are in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12460 So if so many undertakings can survive together and coexist, then I would say that the SCMO in Montréal is going to be viable and there are all the reasons I gave to believe that it would be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12461 DR. AGARD: Chair and Commissioners, from a broader policy perspective, having worked with the Toronto SCMOs and on‑air licensing of an FM recently and continuing to observe that market in particular, from a broad policy perspective, I think that what happens is that from the Commission's perspective the greater competition brings a greater quality of programming. So that's one asset.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12462 The other is that I really look at it as the expanding of the availability of diverse programming within that particular marketplace.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12463 They are not necessarily ‑‑ and Mr. Ray and I have discussed this; that really the introduction makes available a greater diversity. So you could tune to your radio in the car and if you want a certain directed programming you could become a subscriber, just like cablevision, for example.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12464 MR. RAY: Beyond that, also listener choice will be available to them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12465 THE CHAIRPERSON: As you know, they are also applicants for AM frequencies to provide third language service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12466 Would your service and the AM service make it in the Montréal market with the ethnic community that is available?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12467 MR. RAY: To further understand you clearly, you mean if two were ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12468 THE CHAIRPERSON: If the Commission were to grant an AM licence at the same time as your proposed service.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12469 MR. RAY: If you would permit me to answer it in the following manner, Mr. Chairman, maybe I should say which one would have the least impact on us and which one would have the most impact on us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12470 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12471 MR. RAY: If I have your permission to talk about both AM and FM, it will answer your question but it will also give an idea ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12472 THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand that you will be coming back as intervenors, so I'm not opening a door to allow you to make an intervention, but only for the record.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12473 MR. RAY: Sure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12474 THE CHAIRPERSON: Let's take the question in a positive manner and say: Could on AM and FM service, owned and operated by two different operators, survive in the South Asian community in the Montréal market?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12475 MR. RAY: If the answer had to be in yes and no, the answer would be yes, both would be able to survive.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12476 But if you would permit me to also elaborate, the other two ethnic AM ‑‑ well, one of them, Radio Humsafar, which is also a very successful SCMO in Montréal, their entire programming would be a duplication of what we also are going to provide if we are licensed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12477 The other applicant, SSTV, the vast majority of its programming also would be duplication of our programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12478 Therefore, if a choice had to be made, then I would say that these two proposals would have much greater impact on us than, for example, CHCR, which Hellenic will have no impact on us because the groups they want to serve are not the same, except a very small amount, you know, four hours of South Asian and I guess a couple of hours of Vietnamese they are proposing. We can always sit down with them and make sure that there is no scheduling conflict.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12479 So they will have the least impact on us, but the other two would have more impact. But then, yes, we can survive.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12480 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right. That suffices at this stage of the proceeding. I will come back to programming because staff came to see me saying that I skipped a page.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 12481 THE CHAIRPERSON: You will be devoting 14 hours a week toward news and weather, traffic and sports. Have you broken it down between each of the components and how local it would be versus national and international?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12482 MR. RAY: Talking of the news I guess first ‑‑ I think we are talking about the news, 14 hours of news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12483 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12484 MR. RAY: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12485 The news, we have proposed ‑‑ and this from our previous experience in Toronto as well as in Edmonton ‑‑ that approximately one‑third would be local news, one‑third national and one‑third international, because ethnic communities, each one has a homeland that they have come from. So we would divide that roughly one‑third, one‑third and one‑third.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12486 THE CHAIRPERSON: How will you gather, say, the local portion of the news?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12487 MR. RAY: We would provide the tools to the producers by way of not only the Internet, but also I must mention that we do propose to invite the journalism students from Concordia to report to us, also local secondary schools.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12488 But that's not the primary source. It's because it came to my mind and before I forget it, I might as well put it on record that we would encourage them to report to us what is happening in the community, what is happening in the youth.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12489 But also our staffing, we have allocated two news staff during the station‑produced programming Monday to Friday: one part‑time in the morning and one part‑time in the evening, whose only job would be to gather news, local news, and of course national BN, translated BN and get direct feeds from the BBC.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12490 They would also be encouraged, whenever possible, if there is a major event happening, and if there is no conflict with their schedule that they are supposed to be on air in the morning and the evening, to attend those, or to report from a remote location where the event is taking place.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12491 So the emphasis on local programming, local weather, local traffic, local events would be very prominent on our news, both morning, evening and day time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12492 DR. AGARD: As well, the brokered programming part of that agreement requires ten minutes of news directed at those particular communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12493 THE CHAIRPERSON: Those brokered programs are locally produced. They are not coming from overseas or Toronto or Vancouver or Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12494 MR. RAY: They are all going to be locally produced and all the non‑staff producers, the brokered programming, would in fact not only be producing them locally but also the news portion and the programming, they will be encouraged ‑‑ in fact, they will be required to follow the same guidelines as staff producers, including if we have seminars to enhance programming quality.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12495 I'm a trainer myself and I do workshops and I teach various things to ethnic communities, how to be effective broadcasters, voice modulation, or whatever else, news reading.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12496 We would require them to attend these workshops and seminars.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12497 If I remember correctly, I think you asked me to break down the news?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12498 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, you said a third, a third, a third, 14 hours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12499 MR. RAY: And I also have the breakdown as to which programming will have how much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12500 But a total of 14 hours, approximately. To be exact, it's 14 hours and 15 minutes per week of news programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12501 THE CHAIRPERSON: Where will your brokers go to produce their programs? At your station? Or are they equipped? Do you know them now?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12502 MR. RAY: Some of them, yes. But there are no contracts in place. It would be premature to do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12503 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12504 MR. RAY: To answer your question as to where they will produce, there are two options that they would have. If I remember correctly, I have devoted a paragraph in the supplementary brief to the effect that they would have full access to the radio station's production facility, as well as the radio station's music library.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12505 They would be encouraged to produce their programs within the radio station premises. If they have the facility at their own place, if they can afford it, well, that will be no problem of course.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12506 THE CHAIRPERSON: Back to your own local programming, if my memory serves me well in reading your brief, everything seems to be taped or pre‑produced before going on air.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12507 Am I right? Did I understand your application right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12508 So the local live portion seems to be always prerecorded.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12509 MR. RAY: In fact, the answer would be no. There is only one segment ‑‑ which I'm not sure if you are going to ask me that question later and I'm jumping the gun.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12510 But about what proportion of our total programming will be pretaped or voicetracked, it will be all live‑to‑air except one segment during the weekday. In the morning Punjabi program from 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m. and there's an Urdu program from 10:00 a.m. to 12:00 noon on weekdays catering to the Pakistani community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12511 The news person in the morning would be fluently bilingual in Punjabi and Hindustani, as most of those who have migrated from northwest India are; the western part of Pakistan and the eastern end of India, the Punjab, and there is a border in between. They are fluently bilingual in Punjabi.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12512 So the news person in the morning would produce the Punjabi programming but he would also produce and voicetrack the Urdu news, which will be broadcast at 11:00 a.m., a ten‑minute news ‑‑ it is probably 11:00 a.m. So there is that one.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12513 And in the afternoon, there will be possibly a voicetracked news item, early in the afternoon.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12514 In addition to that, there is going to be no other pretaped program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12515 For example, if there is an interview, if a member of the Montreal Board of Education or Montreal City Police or Elections Canada or maybe the Health Department, if somebody is being interviewed, it will not be pretaped. It will be all live‑to‑air, an interview with an artist or a social worker. It will all be live‑to‑air.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12516 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have just been granted a licence for Mississauga. Will you have synergies with your new operation?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12517 MR. RAY: Absolutely there will be ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12518 THE CHAIRPERSON: And of which type?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12519 MR. RAY: As you know, the Mississauga radio station is set to be predominantly South Asian. Let me take the musical part of it first.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12520 Toronto perhaps is the biggest resource we have in Toronto of local talents. That is one area that we would be able to send a lot of the Canadian content that is locally produced to Montreal. So that is one area where our Mississauga undertaking would greatly help the Canadian content of the Montreal station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12521 The other part, I'm thinking that there could be some programming that could be exclusively produced for the Montreal radio station, to be broadcast only on the Montreal radio station. But because the resources of on‑air talent is also abundant in Toronto ‑‑ I used to have a radio program on a radio station which was 60 hours a week. Unfortunately, the ownership changed and the new owners didn't want any ethnic programming and we had to go off the air.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12522 I had 21 professional broadcasters who were working for us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12523 To make a long story short, there is huge resource ‑‑ not that I'm going to bring them to Montreal and do all my Montreal programming. It will be all locally produced. There are good resources available in Montreal also available that we will be able to use. We can polish them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12524 But the synergies would include that and also the experience that we would have from our Mississauga undertaking, we do expect to put it on air before the Montreal if we are fortunate enough to be blessed with a licence here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12525 Dr. Agard, you can probably add to that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12526 DR. AGARD: I always like to go to broad policy‑type descriptors.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12527 Commissioners, I know that you should recognize that the Mississauga approval only came rather recently so we are still in the process of understanding that and the implications of another licensed FM of the same nature.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12528 There are a few things I think that would emerge should we be successful with this frequency.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12529 One is the obvious economies of scale. One should not avoid recognizing that; managerial. Another one of particular interest is the service providers in terms of news and contractual arrangements, for example, with Voice of America, Radio India, et cetera, would certainly be beneficial.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12530 I think we also attempted to evaluate the impact on emerging Canadian content and emerging Canadian talent; that there would be some synergies there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12531 As well, the program development in terms of recognizing that facilities would involve the development of programs specific to the Montréal initiative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12532 Lastly I think from a national broadcasting perspective, the synergies with respect to third language broadcasting specific to the South Asian communities, we have that intercultural community development access that both stations can in fact engage in and carry, simultaneous casting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12533 I know that we have discussed the fact that Montréal has unique. The station has to have its local unique programming, and so the synergies are in terms of ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12534 THE CHAIRPERSON: But in most instances in the groups it is the back office where the synergies are taking place.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12535 DR. AGARD: Correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12536 THE CHAIRPERSON: There is only one area for accounting and one area for traffic and one area ‑‑ so that is something you didn't allude to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12537 DR. AGARD: Correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12538 THE CHAIRPERSON: But as a matter of principle it has been on your radar screen.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12539 DR. AGARD: Radar, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12540 MR. RAY: In fact, to just round that off, the Montréal South Asian community ‑‑ of course the station if licensed would be predominantly catering to the various communities within the South Asian community, and the same community, the South Asian community in Toronto has a relationship as well. There is a lot of synergy flowing back and forth between Toronto and Montréal within the South Asian community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12541 The communication between the two would be further enhanced and it would be very interesting and beneficial to the two communities when sometimes we can have a link and have say an open line show with a 1‑800 number with both stations going simultaneously on air and talking to each other.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12542 That would be another synergy that would further enhance the quality of the programming and benefit the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12543 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Ray, we need to clarify some issues regarding the control of your proposed station. There seems to be some contradiction in the documents that have been filed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12544 Obviously you are the majority shareholder and have legal control of 51 percent of the shares of the company, but in your shareholder agreement we read that the Board of Directors of the proposed organization will hold the legal control of the company.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12545 We need to clarify who really has the legal control. Is that the members of the board through their shareholder agreement or is it you as the majority owner of 51 percent of the shares?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12546 MR. RAY: The control of the licence ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12547 THE CHAIRPERSON: The ultimate control.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12548 MR. RAY: The ultimate control of the licence will be with Neeti P. Ray. That is myself. When we refer to the Board of Directors, as far as the policies are concerned of the station, whether it is programming and some other aspects of the station, but as far as the licence is concerned, as far as fulfilling the conditions of the licence is concerned, the local programming, those would lie ‑‑ I will be, Neeti P. Ray will be ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12549 THE CHAIRPERSON: The ultimate control, as the ultimate control of the corporation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12550 MR. RAY: Will be with Neeti P. Ray.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12551 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think your shareholder agreement is only a proposed shareholder agreement. Before making it the final document, if you are granted a licence, would you clear that up so that it is clearly stated that you have the ultimate control of the corporation?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12552 MR. RAY: Absolutely, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12553 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12554 Now I have my technical questions and I appreciate that your engineer was here yesterday. I appreciate very much that Mr. Cahn was here and I understand that he has stayed and he also led me to believe that he had a doctor's appointment this morning. So I appreciate the attendance of Mr. Moltner on your behalf to help out with the more technical questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12555 My questions are exactly the same for everybody so he already has a bit of an idea of what they are going to be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12556 Obviously AVR is currently operating out of a temporary transmission site and they are expected to move to a more permanent site. We don't know, at least as of today, which site it is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12557 I'm looking at your plan. You have identified the Montréal Stock Exchange Building, because you have a letter from McGill Laurentian in your file that you are planning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12558 In the eventuality that AVR goes to the same location, what will be the impact on your service? Then we will look at it if they go somewhere else.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12559 MR. RAY: Before Jim answers the technical side of that, of course we do understand that our undertaking is predicated technically an AVR and we have to go where AVR goes. We understand that their proposal, as submitted to Industry Canada with their application, was based on the Stock Exchange Tower and that is where we propose to put our antenna, presuming that AVR would do the same.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12560 But having said that, of course we have to be with them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12561 Maybe I will like Jim Moltner further elaborate on that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12562 MR. MOLTNER: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I could clarify. I don't want to take away your ability to ask the same question over and over, but AVR, as the incumbent, provided a blanket agreement to allow collocated second adjacents, and that agreement provided that AVR would have the right to choose the site and the incoming second adjacent would be required to collocate with them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12563 THE CHAIRPERSON: So the plan that has been prepared by Mr. Cahn takes that into consideration and makes the assumption that it will be the Montréal Stock Exchange Building?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12564 MR. MOLTNER: It does, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12565 THE CHAIRPERSON: It does.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12566 Obviously there are some potential interference issues of being a collocator and they may have some bearing on the ability for the listeners, say in the Montréal downtown area, to have reception problems.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12567 How have you figured that out by collocating? Will it be a problem, a significant problem for the service that Mr. Ray wants to provide?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12568 MR. MOLTNER: In terms of the second adjacent?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12569 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12570 MR. MOLTNER: Well, I think I would like to dispel that as well. There is no evidence that indicates that even the cheapest receivers have any problem receiving second adjacents.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12571 In fact, the most recent test data, which I believe it comes from Industry Canada, from their second adjacent testing in the laboratory a few years ago, indicates that even the cheapest receivers should have absolutely no problem with second adjacent signals as long as those signals are comparable in level.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12572 In general, cheap receivers have a problem with adjacent signals, whether they be second adjacent or third adjacent or 14th adjacent, when one of the signals is much stronger than the other signal. That is not the case here. Both signals will be exactly equal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12573 To summarize, we don't anticipate any interference.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12574 THE CHAIRPERSON: You don't anticipate any interference. But if there was to be interference, have you looked into the type of solutions that you will have to undertake to diminish the level of interference?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12575 One of the ways usually engineers propose is to increase power, but I think I understand you both will be going at the maximum authorized power for the frequencies that you would be allocated.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12576 MR. MOLTNER: That's correct. Well, potential interference is not just a second adjacent issue. It also happens with third adjacent and fourth adjacent, which the Commission licenses routinely and Industry Canada authorizes routinely and people deal with it. They either replace the affected radios with a better radio or in extreme cases they move sites to less populated areas.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12577 It's not just a second adjacent issue and it's not doom and gloom and life goes on. That's why we have our radio system in the major markets in Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12578 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, my last question is regarding IBOC implementation. If you are collocating at the same location, will you be able to implement IBOC if the standard was authorized for Canada?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12579 MR. MOLTNER: Well, I would like to say first of all that IBOC has not been adopted for Canada.