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Providing Content in Canada's Official Languages

Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

              TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

 

 

 

 

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

 

 

 

 

 

                      SUBJECT / SUJET:

 

 

 

VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

 

Best Western Inn                      Best Western Inn

2402 Highway 97 North                 2402, autoroute 97 Nord

Kelowna, B.C.                         Kelowna (C.-B.)

 

November 1st, 2007                     Le 1er novembre 2007

 


 

 

 

 

Transcripts

 

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

 

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

 

 

 

 

Transcription

 

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

 

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.


               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

 

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

 

 

                 Transcript / Transcription

 

 

 

            VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /

            PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

BEFORE / DEVANT:

 

Rita Cugini                       Chairperson / Présidente

Ronald Williams                   Commissioner / Conseiller

Michel Morin                      Commissioner / Conseiller

 

 

 

 

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTES:

 

Cindy Ventura                     Secretary / Secrétaire

Véronique Lehoux                  Legal Counsel /

Conseillère juridique

Francine Laurier-Guy              Hearing Manager /

Gérante de l'audience

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

 

Best Western Inn                  Best Western Inn

2402 Highway 97 North             2402, autoroute 97 Nord

Kelowna, B.C.                     Kelowna (C.-B.)

 

November 1st, 2007                Le 1er novembre 2007

 

 


- iv -

 

           TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES

 

 

                                                 PAGE / PARA

 

PHASE III

 

 

INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:

 

Okanagan College Students' Union                  528 / 2741

Kris Michelson

University of B.C. Students' Union

 

Okanagan Nation Alliance                          541 / 2797

Westbank First Nations

 

Young Life of Canada                              565 / 2910

Jessanna Jones

Brodie Kalamen

Donagh Czerwinski

John McNickel

 

Okanagan Symphony Orchestra                       594 / 3026

 

Minstrel Cafe and Bar                             605 / 3076

Danny McBride

Phil McGrew

Rachel MacGregor

 

 

 

PHASE IV

 

 

REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:

 

Deep Waters Media                                 625 / 3176

 

Radio CJVR Ltd.                                   625 / 3181

 

Northern Native Broadcasting                      629 / 3210

 

Touch Canada Broadcasting                         636 / 3248

 

Clear Sky Radio Inc.                              637 / 3255

 


- v -

 

           TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES

 

 

                                                 PAGE / PARA

 

PHASE IV (Cont'd)

 

 

REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:

 

CTV Limited                                       638 / 3262

 

Harvard Broadcasting Inc.                         645 / 3295

 

Sun Country Cablevision Ltd.                      653 / 3340

 

Vista Radio Ltd.                                  656 / 3359

 

 

 

PHASE I

 

 

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

 

Community Media Education Society                 658 / 3371

 

 

 

PHASE II

 

 

INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:

 

TELUS                                             702 / 3605

 

 

 

PHASE III

 

 

REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:

 

Community Media Education Society                 712 / 3649

 

 


- vi -

 

           TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES

 

 

                                                 PAGE / PARA

 

PHASE I

 

 

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

 

Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Ltd.                 718 / 3670

 

 

 

PHASE II

 

 

INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:

 

Vista Radio Ltd.                                  761 / 3869

 

 

 

PHASE III

 

 

REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:

 

Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Ltd.                 778 / 3956

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


                      Kelowna, B.C. / Kelowna (C.‑B.)

‑‑‑ Upon resuming on Thursday, November 1st, 2007

    at 0900 / L'audience reprend le jeudi

    1er novembre 2007 à 0900

LISTNUM 1 \l 1 \s 27372737             THE SECRETARY:  Good morning.  We will now continue with Phrase III in which intervenors appear in the order set out in the agenda to present their intervention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12738             For the record, we have been informed that Westside Warriors Junior A Hockey Club listed on the agenda will not be appearing at the hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12739             I would now call Okanagan College Students' Union, Kris Mickelson and University of B.C. Students' Union to appear as a panel to present their interventions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12740             We will start with Mr. Dave Lubbers, who is representing both the Okanagan Students' Union and the University of B.C. Students' Union.  Mr. Lubbers, you have ten minutes for your presentation.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 12741             MR. LUBBERS:  Thank you.  Can everyone hear me okay?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12742             Good morning, Madam Chair and the rest of the panel and everybody else here.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12743             My name is David Lubbers.  I am the outgoing Executive Chair of the Okanagan College Students' Union, and I sit on the executive as the external coordinator for the University of British Columbia Students' Union here in the Okanagan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12744             I have represented students in the Valley for the last four years, which covers roughly 9,000 students spanning from Osoyoos to Salmon Arm, most of whom reside in the Kelowna area.  During that time I have looked after services such as transportation improvement, low income housing, environmental campaigns, and affordable education for students, as well as campus life, such as promoting events at the college and the university, often booking musical events for students.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12745             I am proud to be a part of a growing community of students here in the Okanagan.  It is worth pointing out that UBC Okanagan and the Okanagan College Students' Union are some of the only institutions in British Columbia that have actually seen significant growth in the last two years.  This is an area that many people don't realize is really a youth town, as well as a town that is, you know, a little bit older.  It is becoming more of a college town all the time.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12746             This is a place where youth are coming to become educated, and as well as to enjoy everything that British Columbia, particularly the Okanagan, has to offer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12747             That being said, I think that there are places that we could improve.  We have, over the last few years, booked several bands at our pub, such as Tegan and Sara, All Night Long, Cold Driven.  Some of these are local bands.  Tegan and Sara is not.  I believe it is from Vancouver.  These bands sell out every time they come to our campus.  The last time actually Tegan and Sara performed, I often have to work the door unfortunately, and a gentleman offered me $120 in cash to get in because we were sold out and the line up was so far out the door.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12748             These are not things that people are hearing on the radio, and it begs the question, if radio in our community is like a pie, it often seems like we are missing a piece of that pie.  We have several radio stations in town, and I think they do a very good job of servicing a lot of the people who we have in our community, but I don't see that we have a radio station that services the demographic that I represent, students ranging from the age of 17 years old to returning students who are in their early 30s coming back to university.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12749             It is difficult to get the type of music that people are interested in.  I hear a lot of stories about how radio has a chance to dictate what is cool to students, and the general consensus is that they are doing a bad job of dictating to them and that students may be able to have more input in it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12750             It is also worth pointing out that in this area a lot of the growth that we are experiencing is not local.  It is students who are coming from Alberta and Ontario and the Maritimes who want to come here, and when I meet with them, sometimes we have to go for a drive and when I hop in the car, they ask me to turn the radio station off because the radio stations are not giving them what they have grown to expect in other regions of the country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12751             Another point is in a world where most students have instant access to music on their iPods or on a CD, the relevance of radio is not necessarily to get the music that you want to listen to solely, because you could get that other ways.  But in reality radio is an important venue to connect students to the community and to talk about issues that they really care about.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12752             While I hear a lot of things on the radio that I am sure very important to a great number of people in this community, I am not hearing about the issues that matter to students like better public transportation, low income housing concerns, high prices of rent.  These are issues that really matter to students and it would be nice to have that kind of connection to the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12753             Events is another thing.  I often hear about events that are happening in town, word of mouth after they happen, and these are events that people in my schools would very much like to go to, but they are not getting the opportunity to hear it on the radio because they are missing out on these things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12754             The other thing that I believe radio can have an important role in is connecting not just the community to the campuses, but the campuses to the community.  For instance, we participated in the World Make Poverty History Day two weeks ago, and there was not one member of the radio there.  We had people from television there; we had members of the print media there; but there were no representatives from radio there.  Why is that?  Surely these things are important.  There is youth in the community, it clearly matters to them, but the current radio situation that we have is not fulfilling that need.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12755             I think that what students are going to be looking for is a new way where they can get involved in radio and feel like they are a part of it, where they can share their experiences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12756             I know myself, and I think Kris will probably back me up, that things like Facebook and My Space are becoming much more than just a networking tool.  They have become the end of spare time.  This is what people my age do.  I come home after a long day at school and I log on to my computer and I see what is going on, and I like to be able to manipulate things and I like to be able to play with things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12757             I do think that AIR‑FM has an interesting proposal, and I think that it will appeal to a younger demographic who are looking to maybe explore radio in a new way that hasn't been looked at before and give them an opportunity to dictate to radio what they think is cool.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12758             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12759             MR. MICKELSON:  Thanks very much, Dave.  Good morning, Madam Chair, Commissioners and staff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12760             My name is Kris Michelson, and I would like to thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today about radio in Kelowna from a young person's perspective.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12761             I would just like to start off to let you know a little bit about myself.  I am 26 years old, originally from Vancouver Island and I have lived in the Okanagan for the past seven years and in Kelowna for the past six years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12762             I graduated from the Okanagan University College in Business in 2006, and while I attended college here, my summers were spent working on some of Kelowna's large summer festivals and events, including the Dragon Boat Festival, where I was responsible for setting up and managing all aspects of the events.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12763             This led me to being hired by the city of Kelowna to monitor and liaise with over 50 events over the past summer from approximately May to October.  As a result, I have now started my own events company, Eventis Management.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12764             We are pleased to be partnering our freestyle mountain bike event with Volleyfest, which happened this year, In Kelowna and City Park of August of next year.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12765             This event encompasses some of the world's best professional beach volleyball players, world's top ranked professional mountain bikers, music, live entertainment, fashion shows and community interactive activities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12766             Now I would just like to spend a bit of time about radio here in Kelowna.  When I first heard of the idea of AIR‑FM, I was really interested because I thought it would be good to have a station that really focuses on young people in Kelowna because it has been my experience that young people, instead of being tuned into local radio here, are actually tuned out.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12767             Most kids that I know don't listen to radio now a days.  Instead they download their music directly from the internet.  They say things to me constantly like the songs played today are always the same, they don't play new stuff ever, and the news that is being portrayed isn't of interest to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12768             I know from a young person's perspective we are really interested in the new and upcoming musicians and artists that are not too well known yet, rather than usual top 40 songs that we constantly hear.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12769             I was also really interested in the interactivity of AIR‑FM.  Young people today are totally look hooked up to technology from their cell phones and iPods to the internet.  To combine old technology of radio with new technology is very appealing for young people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12770             I heard a story about three young local female artists that formed a group, and apparently they are absolutely amazing vocalists and musicians.  They actually went to all the troubles of creating a CD with support from their parents, and they tried to get some air time to showcase themselves.  Unfortunately, they were unable to access air time just due to the fact that they were new and not that well known yet.  Eventually they stopped creating music all together because of the lack of opportunity here in the local music scene.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12771             It is very upsetting to know that these young talented women did not get a fair chance to be recognized.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12772             With an interactive station in Kelowna, it will enable emerging local artists the opportunity to display their talents right here in our community.  From a business perspective, it would be very helpful to be able to reach young people about Volleyfest and the freestyle mountain bike event on a station that young people actually listen to.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12773             Currently there are not any vehicles present that allow local businesses and industries to advertise directly to the young demographic.  Unfortunately, we must access our target markets indirectly, such as media outlets that cater to a wind range of demographic ages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12774             Also, AIR‑FM would allow event organizers to gain direct feedback from the target market through the interactive aspect of the station, and that is something that is not easily accessible for organizers today at all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12775             A few weeks back a thought came to me as I was listening to a local station.  Although it is important for a community to be updated on traffic problems, speed traps ahead, et cetera, I feel there is a large area of important topics concerning youth today that are completely absent.  AIR‑FM has the potential to speak about local problems that our youth are facing every day, from more simple problems such as bullying to more serious ones such as drug and alcohol abuse.  This, in turn, could be a great way to educate and offer support to young people here in Kelowna.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12776             I personally believe this station has the opportunity to reach a young, growing market of individuals who have voices and ideas that are not currently being heard.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12777             Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to speak to you today in support of the AIR‑FM application, and I would like to invite any questions from the Commission for myself or Dave.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12778             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Lubbers and Mr. Mickelson, thank you very much for being here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12779             Do my colleagues have any questions?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12780             Mr. Lubbers, thank you.  We don't get to hear a lot from students and I am hoping this is just as much an educational experience for you as it is for us to hear from you.  Also, thank you very much for reminding me of my pub nights in university.  Our pub was called The Blind Duck.  I guess it is a good thing I still remember its name.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12781             You said a lot of interesting things in terms of what your peers expect but are not getting from radio currently.  We know that there are many sources for music.  You both mentioned the internet and downloading music.  We have been told that five years ago there was only one source of music and that was radio.  Now there is as many as ten and tomorrow there could be 15 or 20.  So we know all that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12782             Why do you think that the AIR‑FM proposal, given its 360 degree model that will include streaming and downloading and uploading and blogs and all of the elements that make up that 360 degree experience, why do you think that that will then draw your peers to listen to the radio station itself?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12783             In other words, if everything surrounding the radio station, will that not satisfy what their needs are in terms of the kind of music they want to hear because they are going to hear it on the website.  What will draw them to turn on the radio and tune to the AIR‑FM dial when they are in their cars, their dorm rooms, wherever, instead of wearing their iPods?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12784             MR. LUBBERS:  First of all, I would like to bring you back to the idea that radio is a medium to communicate things like events and issues.  I mean, you are not going to be able to easily go on the internet and find out what is happening as far as sustainable transit initiatives in Kelowna.  That is a difficult Google search.  You are not going to be able to go on and see what the city council is doing for affordable housing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12785             I think that a youth‑oriented radio station, however, can bring those messages to a youth audience, and I think that that is going to make it relevant and important to them.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12786             But secondly, and perhaps more importantly, is that students like to feel that they matter.  There is a very wide perception among people my age that there are folks up there in suits who don't care about what I have to say and they don't really care what I listen to, as long as I buy their stuff.  But AIR‑FM'S proposal to make things interactive, to use people's playlists, to do those things allows students to feel like they are part of the process and that their voice really does matter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12787             I think that is what is going to hook people on to that radio station is that interactivity that they are relevant and they can tell others, look, this is who I am, this is what I want to see.  I really think that that is the hook.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12788             MR. MICKELSON:  I definitely have to agree with Dave.  I think young people, the internet generation, millennium generation, so to speak, really like to be involved in things.  If they could see themselves being involved in creating what is the content going on air, I think they would like to be listening to what some of their peers and some of their friends may have to say or seeing a local group actually making it somewhere and getting some recognition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12789             I think that is the biggest thing is for the youth to be involved in order to get them involved in listening.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12790             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you both very much for coming here today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12791             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12792             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12793             For the record, there has been a schedule change.  We will proceed first with Okanagan Nation Alliance and Westbank First Nation, followed by the panel of intervenors for Touch Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12794             I would now call Okanagan Nation Alliance and Westbank First Nation to come up to the presentation table.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 12795             THE SECRETARY:  I would now call the Okanagan Nation Alliance and Westbank First Nation to appear as a panel.  We will start with the Okanagan Nation Alliance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12796             Please introduce yourself, and you will have ten minutes for your presentation.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION


LISTNUM 1 \l 12797             MR. LOUIE:  Good morning.  Madam Chair, honourable Commissioners, (another language spoken here) to the Westbank First Nation territory.  We are the Nsyilx people, Okanagan people, the people of this land and we have lived here for thousands and thousands of years.  (Another language spoken here) Westbank First Nation.  I am the Chief of the Westbank First Nation.  My Indian name is Simoux (ph).  It means being connected to the lands.  My English name is Robert Louie.  I represent my community, the Westbank First Nation and also am a member of the Okanagan Nation Alliance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12798             With me today is Tara Montgomery.  She is our communications officer for the Okanagan Nation Alliance.  Tara will be reading the statement by our Grand Chief, Chief Stewart Phillip.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12799             As well, accompanying us is our Advancement Advisor for the Okanagan Nation Alliance, Lorraine Johnson, and she is here to assist in the event that there are questions that you might pose with regard to our presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12800             What we would like to do, Madam Chair, is to have the statement from the Okanagan National Alliance read out first by Tara, and then I would like to offer comments from the Westbank First Nation community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12801             MS MONTGOMERY:  Good morning, Madam Chairman, Commissioner members.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12802             Let me first say that it is our shared history and experience, our language and our strong connection to the land, our traditional territories, that binds the seven member bands of the Okanagan Nation together.  This is our strength.  The seven bands represent the only First Nation resident in the valley and we speak one language, Nsyilxcen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12803             It is our duty as a people to preserve, protect and build upon this heritage for now and for the future.  The Okanagan Nation Alliance, representing the unanimous voice of all seven member bands of the Okanagan Nation, does not support this application to provide FM radio service to Kelowna, British Columbia.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12804             We have examined NNB Terrace's proposal, read its clarifications in response to CRTC questions and sat through their presentation before this hearing.  We have watched NNB Terrace modify its position in answer to points we raised in our written intervention, but after all this, we are more convinced than ever that this application must be denied.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12805             We believe that NNB Terrace is attempting to mislead the CRTC panel in the same way it has the Okanagan Nation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12806             To begin, Chief Robert Louie of the Westbank First Nation was mentioned in the context of providing encouragement and support for this application.  This is false and misleading, but I will leave that to Chief Louie to give you the facts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12807             The application contains other misstatements and fabrications to imply local support.  NNB Terrace has not been in regular contact with Okanagan Native leaders for the last seven years.  In fact, all the Chiefs of the Okanagan Nation strongly oppose the application and have passed a Tribal Council resolution in support of establishing our own radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12808             The panel should know that personnel from NNB Terrace were contacted by myself, the Communications Officer, and Lorraine Johnson, our Advancement Advisor, in October and November of 2006.  We were seeking advice and assistance from NNB Terrace in order to start our own Okanagan Nation radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12809             While this contact was for fact finding, Mr. Barry Wall, Manager of NNB Terrace, who I understand is no longer with the station, offered to do everything he could to assist the ONA in setting up its own station.  He offered all direction, help and support to train staff, both in sales and production, as well as assistance in dealing with CRTC for a licence, Industry Canada for technical approval, and Heritage Canada for equipment funding.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12810             He promised to send CFNR's technical specialist to the Okanagan to assess technical needs and other costs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12811             Myself and Lorraine stressed that the programming would be heavily based on Okanagan language and culture, with special focus on children and youth programming, including stories from Elders and family language sessions.  Lorraine then sent a memorandum of understanding, outlining what NNB Terrace and the ONA had discussed to Mr. Wall.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12812             Once that memorandum went unanswered, we didn't hear any further from NNB Terrace despite us phoning them and following up with e‑mails.  So, when NNB Terrace claims there was no time to notify the ONA of its application and blames the CRTC process for rushing their application, they are being less than honest.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12813             They knew exactly what the Okanagan Nation hoped for in a radio station, and they knew exactly who to notify regarding their application.  When the ONA learned of the NNB Terrace application, we asked Mr. Wall to come and tell us how the new station would fit with the model we had discussed.  Mr. Wall met with us on September 24th, 2007 and said that since they didn't have the licence, it was pointless to discuss programming and language concerns.  He was not interested in creating an Okanagan board position and was generally uncooperative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12814             In our opinion, the NNB Terrace application does not meet the requirements for the Native undertaking as defined by CRTC guidelines.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12815             Our objections are as follows:

LISTNUM 1 \l 12816             Target audience.  The application does not mention the Okanagan Nation by name or identify the nation as its target audience.  It provides no evidence of any knowledge specific to the particular market and offers no guarantee that its programming will "reflect the interests and needs specific to the Native audience it is licensed to serve" as in the CRTC Native Broadcasting Policy Public Notice 1990‑89 dated the 20th of September, 1990.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12817             Ownership.  This application is presented by a non‑profit organization owned and controlled and directed by a board made up of individuals from well outside the Okanagan region.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12818             Board representation.  The application does not offer a structure that provides for board membership by the Native population of the region served.  The CRTC Native Broadcasting Policy.  The application does not call for a separate governing body for the Okanagan region, nor does it designate any Okanagan positions on its existing Board of Governors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12819             Our language concerns are as follows:  The revised application promises just one hour a week, .79 per cent of program time in the Okanagan language, raised to 1.5 hours yesterday at the hearing.  This minimal language programming does not fulfil the CRTC mandate of fostering the preservation of ancestral languages, as mentioned in your Native Broadcasting Policy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12820             Our cultural concerns.  Cultural programming is not addressed in the application at all.  It offers news, horoscopes, road reports, community events listings and phone‑in shows as poor substitutes.  This falls short of the CRTC mandate of fostering the development of aboriginal cultures.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12821             Education and youth programming.  The NNB Terrace application does not include educational programming or any programs designed to attract younger listeners.  This ignores and excludes a significant segment of the Okanagan Nation population and will make it difficult, if not impossible, to develop and sustain loyal and growing audiences.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12822             Public examination.  The application was two locations for public examination, the first NNB Terrace head office, which is 1262 kilometres from Kelowna; the other the Westbank First Nation which has never received a copy of the application or a request to display such a document in a prominent location at its offices.  As a consequence, the CRTC's public examination requirement remains unfulfilled.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12823             Misrepresentation of local support.  The application contains serious misstatements and fabrications to imply local support.  NNB Terrace has not been in regular contact with the First Nations leaders of our community for the last seven years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12824             Lost opportunity.  Granting an aboriginal broadcasting licence to Northern Native Broadcasting (Terrace) will make it impossible for the Okanagan Nation to develop its own community radio station.  Preliminary work has already begun toward filing an application to the Commission to accomplish that goal and NNB Terrace was well aware of the Nation's intent to develop its own station to serve the Okanagan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12825             The Okanagan Nation Alliance sees the NNB Terrace licensing application as an opportunistic attempt to expand into a much larger urban market without any demonstrated knowledge of the market of the First Nations communities to be served.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12826             Northern Broadcast Service is designed to reach rural isolated First Nations communities that are not served or poorly served by radio.  These communities are separated by large distances and perhaps by differences in language, dialect or culture.  To accommodate this, NNB Terrace has adopted a one‑size‑fits‑all approach to broadcasting that downplays language or cultural content in favour of music, interspersed with general interest items and some First Nations content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12827             NNB Terrace's format may be acceptable to its northern audience, but it does not serve the Okanagan First Nation audience or the Okanagan market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12828             The ONA Chiefs' Executive Council is dedicated to the following communication goals:  To preserve and revive the Okanagan language and culture, especially among youth; to improve communications among the seven member bands to strengthen the Nation; and to bring an Okanagan Nation perspective on issues to a broader audience and improve relations with the outside community.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12829             The NNB Terrace application does not address and will not accomplish any of these communications objectives.  The panel should be aware that the Okanagan Nation has its own college, the En'owkin Centre, which teaches Nsyilxcen language courses and offers instruction in media and communication.  In addition, the ONA has an excellent working relationship with Okanagan College and the University of British Columbia Okanagan.  The will and the infrastructure exists locally to accomplish our goal of an Okanagan Nation radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12830             Granting this licence to NNB Terrace will destroy any chance of building an Okanagan First nations radio station that would be a worthwhile addition to Native broadcasting in Canada and a complement to the local broadcasting community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12831             One of the presenters from NNB Terrace stated that they would not move forward if Okanagan Chiefs were not in agreement, and we are not in agreement and we do not support Application 2007‑0863‑8 for a new FM station in Kelowna.  We ask that CRTC deny this application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12832             Thank you for this opportunity to speak to the Commission.  Lim limp.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12833             MR. LOUIE:  Madam Chair, if I may speak now?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12834             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12835             MR. LOUIE:  Thank you.  Lim limp.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12836             Madam Chair, honourable Commissioners, as Tara has indicated, not only does the Okanagan Nation Alliance collectively not support this application, the Westbank First Nation does not support the application by Native Northern Broadcasting to provide FM radio service to this city.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12837             I know that Native Northern Broadcasting (Terrace) has mentioned my name as one who has encouraged and supported their application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12838             It is very awkward for me.  I very much view the First Nation from Terrace as my friends.  I know Chief Bennett and his people and I know quite a bit about the community and their connection with the radio station.  I have had past discussions with the people from Terrace, but this application is done without proper consultation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12839             I should also point out some salient facts.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12840             There are not 12 First Nations represented in the Okanagan Valley as Native Norther Broadcasting (Terrace) claims.  In fact there is one First Nation collectively, and we refer to that nation as the Okanagan Nation, as composed of seven bands.  That is the Okanagan band to the north, Westbank First Nation here Kelowna, Westbank, Penticton band, Osoyoos band, Upper Similkameen, Lower Similkameen and also the Upper Nicola band outside of Merritt.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12841             As Tara has mentioned, our language is Nsyilxcen.  We are the Nsyilx people, the Okanagan people.  As well, I should point out that while had in the past occupied this land before Europeans arrived, our population has considerably dwindled.  We do not unfortunately make up the 15 to 20 per cent population in the Okanagan as it is right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12842             The statistics are closer to 3 per cent of the population now is comprised of the Okanagan people, who live off reserve.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12843             So, there are misconceptions about the Okanagan Valley and about our residents who live here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12844             For the information of the panel members, I should explain that my community, Westbank First Nation, we have self‑government.  Our legislation came into effect on April 1, 2005, after two decades, almost two decades, 17 years of community consultation and tedious negotiations.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12845             The decision for my community to seek self‑government was not taken lightly and our road to this realization was a long one but it was finally granted to us.  We have certain rights and responsibilities that we, as the Westbank First Nation take very, very seriously.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12846             One of our responsibilities includes, and I quote, jurisdiction in relation to the preservation, promotion and development of Okanagan culture and language on Westbank lands.  That is pursuant to our self‑government agreement, Part 15.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12847             So, it is indeed troubling to discover that Native Northern Broadcasting (Terrace) proposes to operate a native broadcasting service on our lands and traditional territories.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12848             We have four objections to this application.  They are very straight forward and they are quite simple.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12849             Firstly, our community, the Westbank First Nation, was not informed properly or consulted properly prior to or after this application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12850             Secondly, the Westbank First Nation is listed as a public examination location but we have never received any documents, notifications or copies of the application from Native Northern Broadcasting (Terrace).  You can't consult after the fact, in other words.  You can't indicate a location when none has been applied for.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12851             Thirdly, the application does seriously misrepresent local First Nations support.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12852             Fourthly, the application is, quite frankly, woefully deficient in programming content, as Tara has explained, the content of interest to our local First Nations audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12853             Further background on each of these four items, very briefly, the lack of consultation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12854             As I have explained, we are a self‑governing entity.  We should have been informed of the broadcast application in its fullest details.  We should have had the application given to us.  We should have had some meetings with the people, especially since we have jurisdiction over our culture and language on our lands.  We are surprised that the broadcast studio might be located in our community, Westbank, as I understand the application suggests.  As I have indicated, we have received no formal request from Native Northern Broadcasting (Terrace).

LISTNUM 1 \l 12855             Undoubtedly had this taken place, this would involve leasing arrangements, business licences that we have jurisdiction over on Westbank lands and something that is very much part of this application for a location.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12856             Secondly, public examination.  Our offices was listed, as I indicated, as a location where the general public could examine the broadcast application.  I have asked our staff to take a thorough search from our staff, our personnel have gone through the Canada Post courier, e‑mail receptions and any other documentation that might have been submitted.  We have failed to find any documents or notifications from Native Northern Broadcasting (Terrace).  There have been verbal discussions seven to eight years ago with myself with Native Northern Broadcasting.  I admit that and certainly I will comment further upon your questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12857             As far as a public examination, we can only conclude that the documents were never sent to us.  So, the CRTC requirement of public examination has, quite frankly, not been fulfilled.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12858             Thirdly, the local support.  Including my community, the Westbank First Nation in this application and the CRTC application before you without our knowledge or consent breaches First Nations protocol and, quite frankly, again offends business ethics.  It is seen by us as a back door approach to gain this broadcast licence, intended to convey the impression that our community supports this application, which we do not.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12859             The Okanagan Nation Alliance Chiefs Executive Council have met.  We concluded that no Chiefs or band councils have been in regular or continuing contact with Native Northern Broadcasting (Terrace) regarding a native broadcasting station as they maintain in their application.  We have seven Chiefs involved along with their council.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12860             Fourthly, the program content of it.  Their application contains programming which at this point seems of little interest to our Okanagan Nation.  The language commitment is less than 1 per cent of program time per week.  This is unacceptable to us.  We cannot think of any other Native undertaking with the language component under 5 per cent of program time.  We know of some stations in Ontario that devote as much as 90 per cent of their air time to Native languages and culture.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12861             So, in our viewpoint this application is more similar to a commercial radio station, playing old rock and roll music, and masquerading as a Native undertaking.  This is unacceptable to us.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12862             In conclusion, an Okanagan Nation radio station reflecting the language and culture needs to be specific to our nation, to our stated goals as a people and our stated goals, from the Chief's Executive Council of the Okanagan Native Alliance, have not been met.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12863             It should be owned and controlled by a non‑profit organization, with board membership drawn from the First Nation population of the Okanagan, our people.  Much work has already been accomplished to this end, and perhaps this is something that Native Northern Broadcasting may be somewhat aware, but a lot of work and a lot of discussion has been put towards ourselves as a people making an application to CRTC for our own radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12864             We expect, my community, the Westbank First Nation expects that we will be prepared to submit our application for a Native undertaking to yourselves certainly within the next 12 months.  We hope to have it much, much sooner than that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12865             My council, my community that I represent, requests that the CRTC deny the application for this Native Northern Broadcasting 2007‑0863‑8 for a new FM radio station in Kelowna, B.C.  It is unfortunate that this has not been further discussed with the people who have made this application.  We regret that, and I am certainly prepared to answer any questions that you might have regarding any conversations we have had in the past, more so in the last seven to eight years past, not recently.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12866             A lot of effort has been put by our people and consideration has been given to having an application sent before you.  We fully intend to do that.  You will be hearing our application, should you deny this application, and we commit to you to have this before you within the expedient time necessary to have this heard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12867             Thank you for your time and the opportunity to present our views at this public hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12868             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Chief Louie.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12869             I will ask Commissioner Williams to begin the questioning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12870             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good morning and welcome to our hearing, Chief Louie and fellow panellists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12871             Yesterday we heard from Mr. Bartlett in answers to questions about consultation.  He felt it was a very detailed complex process and it would take a large amount of time and there wasn't sufficient time in order to do that.  Can you comment on that, please?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12872             MR. LOUIE:  We are involved in consultation with all kinds of groups:  Mining, forestry, developers, everyone that involves lands in our area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12873             Quite frankly, we see this as, when you are talking about consultation, if you are talking forest, for example, if you cut down the trees and then come to us and say we cut down the trees, is that right?  That is how we see this application.  The licence is granted.  Why is there need for consultation?  That is after the fact.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12874             Consultation by law, as we understand it, by law, when we are looking at things like forestry and mining and so forth ‑‑ and we view this as no exception ‑‑ should be properly done, and that is before hand.  We should be sitting down and perhaps had that occurred, perhaps we could have worked out some sort of an arrangement that would be mutually beneficial.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12875             We are in a very awkward position right now with this hearing and with the non‑consultation that should have been properly done, taken after the fact.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12876             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You have invited us to ask you so I will ask you.  Could you please describe the nature of your prior conversations with the applicant over the past seven years or so?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12877             MR. LOUIE:  By all means.  In my other capacity as Chairman of the Lands Advisory Board I have travelled to many communities across Canada, assisting First Nations to get into land management, and I have done so with this community at Terrace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12878             I know the Chief very well.  I know most of the council members very well and I know many of the community members very well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12879             Some time ago, and I am looking at my records and trying to recollect, it is somewhere in the seven, eight years ago, certainly I have been at the community and spent a fair amount of time looking over their lands, understanding what sort of land jurisdiction they were seeking, and had the opportunity to view their radio station.  Certainly I had discussions with their Chief, executive people, with their radio announcers and even did some interviews with Native Northern Broadcasting.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12880             Our discussions were looking at, well, what about the expansion of Native Northern Broadcasting to other areas.  I indicated that we were certainly looking at this; perhaps we could work out some sort of arrangement; perhaps this would be a good idea.  We are looking for experienced people, experienced radio station, so, yes, at that time we had some discussions.  They were cordial discussions.  We have never followed up with anything beyond that, outside of their offices at Terrace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12881             I know they had some interest.  I didn't know where they would end up going, whether it would be Prince George or other places, Williams Lake.  I don't know exactly the full extent of Native Northern Broadcastings' coverage, but I know they have some good people up there, and I am friends with most of the people, I think, at least associated with the council.  They are very good people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12882             But here, unfortunately, no, there has been no follow up discussions.  As I have clearly indicated we have not received any documentation, anything of any significance, and this is unfortunate, as it is, and is awkward, very awkward for me to speak against the First Nation who I very much admire, very much respect, and it has put me into a very awkward position.  But that is the actual facts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12883             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Chief Louie.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12884             Just to summarize, I guess your intervention this morning, you are saying there is no local support, no consultation, no or very little local reflection, no local ownership, no local management, the application is not good enough for the Okanagan people and then you recommend that we do not license it.  Would that be an effective summary of your presentation?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12885             MR. LOUIE:  I think that would be almost exact.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12886             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I guess I have one question at the end of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12887             Is there any opportunity for you two groups to work together after?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12888             MR. LOUIE:  Perhaps.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12889             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  In the event that we did deny a licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12890             MR. LOUIE:  I think perhaps.  I would certainly welcome that opportunity.  I think these people have a lot of good experience and I would welcome that opportunity.  So I would hope that that would be possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12891             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you very much, Chief Louie.  That concludes my questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12892             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12893             Just for my own knowledge, Chief Louie, because your intervention also mentioned the lack of aboriginal languages on this station as proposed, how many languages are spoken in the Okanagan Nation?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12894             MR. LOUIE:  There is one language, that is the Nsyilxcen as part of the Nsyilx people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12895             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that is spoken among the seven bands that make up the Okanagan Nation?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12896             MR. LOUIE:  That is correct.  I should indicate that Upper Nicola has a partial occupation of Thompson people.  So there is some overlap, but they have participated and the majority are Okanagan, and they are the Nsyilx people.  So, one language in the Okanagan Valley.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12897             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You wanted to add something.  Please go ahead.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12898             MS MONTGOMERY:  I just wanted to say that the Nsyilxcen language also has old dialects as well in the Similkameen area and people of the Similkameen.  They spoke a different dialect in Nsyilx, but since time has progressed, there are less people who speak that old dialect and have more converted to ‑‑ it is like the language has kind of evolved into this language, but there was that old dialect of the Simillkameen people.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12899             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for that.  I was going to ask you a whole bunch of questions about demand for a radio station in this area, what kind of radio station you would like to see, but since you have told us that you would probably be filing an application for us, I am going to avoid those questions and allow you to tell us that information in your application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12900             Thank you very much for your intervention here today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12901             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12902             MR. LOUIE:  Lim limp, Madam Chair; lim limp, Commissioners.  Thank you for this opportunity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12903             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12904             I would you call Young Life of Canada, Jessanna Jones, Brodie Kalamen and Donagh Czerwinski to appear as a panel to present their interventions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12905             Please proceed to the presentation table.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12906             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We have just been informed that one of the other intervenors who was to appear on this panel have a little bit of a plane delay and is in a cab on his way to the hotel from the airport, so we are going to take a break at this point.  Sorry to have called you up here.  We will take a 20 minute break.  We will be back at 10:10.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12907             Thank you.


‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 0950 / Suspension à 0950

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1009 / Reprise à 1009

LISTNUM 1 \l 12908             THE SECRETARY:  I would now call Young Life of Canada, Jessanna Jones, Brodie Kalamen and Donagh Czerwinski to appear as a panel to present their intervention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12909             We will start with Jessanna Jones.  You will have ten minutes for your presentation.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 12910             MS JONES:  Thank you so much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12911             Good morning, Madam Chair and the Commissioners.  My name is Jessanna Jones, as mentioned, and I live here in Kelowna.  I am a wife and a mother, as well as a young adult, so I would like to present my case for why I really strongly believe that Touch Canada would be a great choice for a new radio station in Kelowna.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12912             Firstly, I would like to just start off as a perspective as a young adult and how I really strongly believe that there is a huge market niche out there for my age group, for early 20s and late teens as far as the style of music that can be playing and that a radio station that would have all these different varieties of music that will reach all these different age groups I think is very important.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12913             I know for myself I am extremely excited to be able to take my music anywhere, listening to it in the car and on the road, as well as at home.  So having a radio station that will be playing the type of music I already listen to at home would be a really good thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12914             Second of all, I would like to talk about the most important thing and that is being a mother, a new mother of two kids and a third on the way, we just found out it is another little boy so we are very excited about that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12915             Having said that, my priority and my focus is raising my children.  We are really committed to wanting to raise them in a healthy, wholesome surrounding and upbringing and instilling into them our morals and our values.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12916             When I look around at society today, unfortunately there aren't too many parts of the media and things that are complimenting our values that we are trying to instill at home especially when it comes to the radio.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12917             For us in our scenario, we have a home of MP3 and CDs and stuff like that that we listen to, but when we get out on the road unfortunately we only have a cassette player, and so any kind of music we have in our house, being an MP3 and CDs we don't have cassettes.  So my children, who love music and my 3 year old always asking for it, is obviously the radio.  That is our option.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12918             When I get into the car and we turn on the radio, their content and the lyrics and the attitude of things that are being sung about aren't really appropriate for a three year old.  She is extremely smart and inquisitive, and I know that this issue is just going to grow more and more as her comprehension grows and her questions grow.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12919             So, 90 per cent of the content that I have been listening to on our local radio stations aren't something that I would want my child to be listening to.  The questions are starting to be raised.  A lot of content is about sex and break ups and a lot of negativity and things that we are not only trying to avoid at this early of an age, but also wanting to instill our own values from the home.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12920             So, for my child having to listen to these types of things is something we are not into.  So, we have been listening and tuning into the classical station, I believe it is CBC or something like that, that we can listen to often.  Other than that, there isn't really anything out there.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12921             I know that I am not the only one that has this problem.  I know many, many young mothers.  I am really well connected here in the community and we all have that similar thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12922             Whether you are religious or not, you still want your children to be innocent and to still be able to have good moral values in the home and that being complimented and affirmed elsewhere, including the radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12923             Having a radio station in the Okanagan that is going to do that is something that I really think is important and I believe that there is a very broad audience for it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12924             When I look around at society and I look around for the different role models that there is for my young girl especially out there, there isn't necessarily one that I really want her looking up to with the way they dress and what they talk about and the content of the music and everything.  I believe that it is not only disturbing, but I don't believe that any good parent that is really looking out for the well‑being of their children want their type of role model for them.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12925             So I think having the option of other music will bring in other artists and stuff that have more positive energy, positive values being instilled instead of the normal kind of musical lyrics and stuff like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12926             I am not saying that every single song played on radio today is evil and wrong and bad and just plain awful for kids, but unfortunately it is a huge percentage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12927             So that is something that I am really looking forward to having that other option of having Touch Canada broadcasting as a station here in the Okanagan.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12928             The other thing that I would like to mention is that whenever we go anywhere else, such as Calgary or Edmonton, that is something we actually regularly listen to, the first thing when we come into the city limits is tune into those radio stations.  I know the people there, they listen to it, that we know, and enjoy it.  And it is something like I'm always, like, oh, why don't we have something like this in the Okanagan.  Why don't we have this option to be able to listen to for ourselves as different types of programmings for parenting and bringing up different issues, but also for children.  There is going to be children programs and things like that that they can listen to and something that you can just leave on freely, whether you are in the car or house and you are not having to listen to the lyrics and listen to the content of the song and be worried about what messages are being portrayed to your children that are going to conflict with what you are trying to instill into them as just even morality and just how you are supposed to live and be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12929             I don't know any parent, a good parent that wants the best for their children wanting their children growing up thinking I want to go to a party or going to parties where there is hooking up with others and drunkenness and even, dare I say it drugs, because that is becoming such a norm.  But if you look at the different role models on the music stations, that is exactly what they portray.  Even if it is artistic expression as an excuse, it is still something that they are portraying and that kids are looking up to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12930             So I really, really believe that there is a whole generation of children, I am only 23, but I am not alone in this, I have many, many other young mothers, play groups, walking groups and stuff like that that are all having children, and I believe it is emerging of different age groups.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12931             I have friends that just had their second and they are in their forties, as well as mothers that are in their thirties.  It is a whole generation that is settling down and having children.  So there is going to be a whole generation coming up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12932             As a mother, young or old alike, we are concerned for what kind of examples are going to be out there.  So, having an alternative radio station with alternative artists that are going to be displaying their music and being proper role models is something that is extremely imperative and I think needs to be really looked at.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12933             I don't know about you, but as a mother, not even anyone that is religious but just as a mother who wants their child to know that there are really cool people that you want to be like out there that are expressing their art and their music in a way that is classy, in a way that is not scandalous or sleazy but something that is moral and right and something that can draw from the inside the lyrics that are more challenging, not just same old sexual content, partying and breaking up and singing about that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12934             I mean, that is great, that is part of life, we all have to get used to it some time but that doesn't need to be the majority of everything.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12935             I really want to stress that.  I think it is so important that we bring a Christian radio station into the Okanagan that is going to offer different programmings for all sorts of different age groups, but for sure one that is going to be hitting this new booming market of young families.  So, for parents and their programs, for children and their programs, and then just general music because as our children grow up, they will become teenagers and they will be changing their different styles of music as well.  So, having a station that is going to be there throughout the generations, a station that is going to be there to be safe and fun and the parents are not going to have to worry about what is going to be listened to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12936             I think it is a start.  It is obviously not the answer to all the troubles in society but it is something; it is an option.  And I think that it will definitely be the start of good for our kids and for our future.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12937             Thank you so much.  That is everything.  If you have any questions, otherwise, Donagh.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12938             MS CZERWINSKI:  Good morning, Chair and Commissioners.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12939             My name is Donagh Czerwinski.  It is very common for that name to be said extremely wrong, but that is okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12940             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I can relate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12941             MS CZERWINSKI:  I am a registered nurse at KGH here in Kelowna.  I grew up in Winfield when it was called Winfield, not Lake Country.  I was then unchurched and unfamiliar with anything that was Christian.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12942             When I was 18 I moved to the Lower Mainland for ten years and at that time I did become a Christian.  While living in the Lower Mainland I discovered Christian radio and I was exceedingly delighted.  Eight years ago I moved back to Kelowna where my husband and I are raising are family.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12943             The one big thing I have missed since moving back to the Okanagan Valley has been Christian radio.  My husband and I have both talked about it.  He has lived in Calgary.  He has listened to the Shine FM.  We both really missed not having that kind of content on the radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12944             When I was living in the Lower Mainland I had the Christian radio on every day at home or in my car.  Today my family does not own a TV but we do own a radio.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12945             Sadly I have been very disappointed and hard pressed to find anything worth listening to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12946             I want my children to be exposed to things that will build them up and not tear them down, which is a lot of what Jessanna was just saying as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12947             Most of the time we lend our ear to the CBC with its classical music content.  However, even that radio station has to be monitored carefully as some on the content is not suitable for our children.  I also find just some of the commentaries that the speakers are saying in their own words is not the kind of words that I want my kids to hear or the gestures I want them to be picking up either.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12948             I have really strong moral convictions and beliefs that I want to upbring for my family.  I am not against secular programming or music, but I don't choose to have the unpredictability of it in my home.  I do find it unpredictable, which is what Jessanna was also mentioning.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12949             Christian radio is what is missing as a wholesome option here in the Okanagan Valley.  In my ten years of listening to Christian radio in the Lower Mainland I never heard anything that I would not want my children to hear.  Never have I heard any depressing, angry, oppressive or sexual lyrics in the music which I was listening to the radio.  The programming is always uplifting.  It is positive and I find it very inspiring.  The focus is toward good things like doing good, loving your neighbour, loving yourself, even loving your father in heaven and honouring your parents and other such family values.  It is this positive, encouraging atmosphere that I and my husband want in our home for our family.  Touch Canada Radio can fill that void in the Valley here.  I have been longing for this in Kelowna since I moved back here, which I also mentioned.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12950             It is my opinion that what Kelowna is not looking for is more of the same old, same old radio programming.  We currently have an ample selection of that.  Today I can turn my radio on and find just about anything I want as long as what I want is more secular mainstream programming.  I believe that the market for Christian radio programming in the Okanagan Valley will prove itself to be very broad and supported by the business community as well.  I am one person and I know of a great number of businesses that are either owned or managed by persons that do share similar convictions that I have, and I believe that they would support it.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12951             I am very confident that these and a great number more would be delighted to support Touch Canada Radio for its moral programming.  I am also aware of well over 100 individuals and families, just like Jessanna was saying, that are as eager as I am to have a quality run, morally focused Christian radio station in our valley.  Overall, I feel that this station will be very well received here in the Okanagan Valley.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12952             I just have a little story.  My little girl Joah, that is her name, she is 20 months old, and she is a healthy little sponge.  She soaks up everything that she sees and hears.  For this reason, I and my husband have to be very careful what we model in everything that we do and say.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12953             I was in the grocery store a while ago with little Joah.  We were standing in a line to pay for our groceries and all was going fine.  It was a rather unremarkable shopping event, which is remarkable in itself.  I thought I was getting away unscathed.  I had my milk and my cheese in one hand and Joah's little hand in my other.  As I stepped forward to dispense my bounty on to the conveyer belt before me, I heard something rather large coming from my rather small little girl.  These words reverberated forward with a certain passion I was not yet aware that she possessed.  She said quite loudly, "Lady, move it."  I was so embarrassed.  If that isn't bad enough, I turned to see my wee peanut lunging at a leg that had stepped in front of her, giving a mighty shove, a very determined and justified look transforming her normally serene little face.  I was amazed and relieved that the lady hardly seemed to even notice Joah.  She just continued on her way without looking down or breaking her stride.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12954             So, where did that come from?  It took me the rest of the day to figure out the answer.  I realized that she was repeating something she had in fact heard me say.  We have a rather bold little cat that has taken to begging as of late, so when she tries to take over the dining room chair that I have been sitting on, I gently push her toward the edge, and I loving say, "Zoe, move it."  But I must say that is not the sound; it sounds nothing like what came out of my daughter when she boldly blurted out her little statement in the grocery store.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12955             Having said that, it is impossible for me or my husband to be able to monitor everything that our daughter hears and even less possible for us to control what she says and when she is going to say it.  That is why it is so important that we have a quality Christian radio station that can provide our Valley with safe and fun programming for the whole family.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12956             I cannot be in the room every second with my daughter when the radio is on.  It doesn't take much more than an interesting sounding word with some emphasis for her to be drawn toward it and then repeat it.  There are very few, if any, careless words spoken on Christian radio and for that I am grateful and much relieved.  Sadly, currently here in the Okanagan Valley we do not as of yet have that option to turn to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12957             One thing that has drawn me to support Allan Hunsperger is his commitment to quality programming and professional integrity.  I have had the pleasure on more than one occasion to listen to his Calgary and Edmonton radio station broadcasts, Shine FM while visiting relatives in Alberta.  I have enjoyed every minute of it and I am impressed by the quality and the consistency I have found in that programming.  I have nothing but confidence in his ability to provide the Okanagan Valley with that same level of quality and integrity.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12958             This is what we need here Kelowna and the surrounding areas, quality Christian radio broadcasting, as offered by the well‑established Touch Canada application.  So, I urge you strongly to please consider this application and what this radio station will mean not only for my family but for all those in the Okanagan Valley as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12959             Thank you for your time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12960             MR. KALAMEN:  Madam Chair and Commissioners and staff, good morning.  My name is Brodie Kalamen, and I have been fortunate to be born and raised here in Kelowna.  I have watched Kelowna grow from a small town surrounded by orchards and mountains to a large city that is bursting at the seams.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12961             As a young boy on my way to school I remember getting up early enough to get out the door and warm up the car for my mom so she could drive us to school.  I remember enjoying turning up the stereo so I could listen to some music while I imagined myself driving the vehicle.  I enjoyed most styles of music such as country, pop, rap, rock, gospel, and remember having to go through CD after CD in order to listen to the music that I was interested in.  Never once do I remember turning on the radio.  Why?  Even though I enjoyed all types of music, there wasn't a content played that connected to me the way that my CDs and my collection had.  I knew that the musicians on the radio were talented and could sing, but I was looking for something more.  What I was looking for was found in a type of music only played on the radio for an hour on a Sunday morning.  This, by the way, isn't even being played any more.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12962             As I got older, I was able to attend an event that was a type of Christian Woodstock called Creation Festival.  Tens of thousands of young and old gathered to hear all the musicians that gathered for that event.  I was totally blown away.  My mind was opened up to all sorts of new bands, new music, new styles, and I had no idea that there were musicians like that.  I attributed my ignorance to coming from a small town in the Okanagan Valley.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12963             But with the internet, I was able to search out labels and recording companies and review their artists that had signed for them.  From there I was able to special order music, books, and I began to share the music and those resources with my friends and they took interest and began to write and create their own music, emulating the styles that they had seen at the festivals and that I had introduced them to.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12964             In result, a whole culture of youth began to outlet their creativity in music and began to draw huge gatherings to the events that we hosted.  Many of my friends now have become professionals in the music industry and I believe it was due, in part, to their exposure to new and creative music.  Imagine what might have been able to occur if we had had the opportunity at an even younger age to have heard that type of music on the radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12965             The other day I was able to hang out with a friend of mine.  I was excited to see him because he was working night shifts and was usually asleep during the day.  He had begun going through some really rough times with his health and he had to step out of a flight school he was attending because he was experiencing fatigue and dizziness.  When I began to talk to him, he was asking some really deep questions.  The questions he was asking were the questions that people ask under their breath, but rarely openly, even to their closest confidante.  These questions were pertaining to his soul, his purpose in life, his future, his health.  As I know, he didn't attend any church that I knew of or hung out with any people that I was associated with.  I asked him where those questions were coming from.  I asked what had stimulated those thoughts.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12966             He began to tell me how when he worked night shift he was managing a machine and in the meantime he would listen to the radio.  He asked me if I had ever heard of a fellow named Dr. James Dobson.  I had.  He said that he never missed an airing of his show.  In my opinion, the things discussed on his show are interesting, but didn't hold my attention for long.  But to him it was a life line.  It stimulated questions, it raised awareness, and gave him hope that there was going to be something that would happen for his benefit, that there might be a cure for the thing he was dealing with and that things were going to turn out all right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12967             As we all know, the airwaves are powerful.  They have the ability to reach people in their homes, their cars, their businesses.  If there was capability to introduce more people to hope, make more people aware and ask the questions that no one else is really asking, shouldn't we stand behind it?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12968             In my occupation I deal with young people on a daily basis.  I teach them to guard their minds, guard their eyes, their ears.  I teach them to focus on things that are good, wholesome, pure, things that bring hope and that increase in them a desire to do good for their neighbourhood or their neighbours and their family.  It is a constant battle which often times feels really futile, and it is my hope that there will be a source such as this radio station that I could point them to that connects them with what really should inspire them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12969             Every family unit needs something they can listen to together.  Family‑oriented programming is hard to find today on the radio and on TV.  Programming that draws a family together and gives them something they can all agree with and embrace would be an incredible source of strength to the family unit.  Like I said, in my occupation, I have come across many resources and media that I know many people don't know about that can be exposed from this radio station.  To me, it is a shame, and I try and expose it to them on my own, but what if they had the platform of the radio waves?  So many more people could be made aware and take advantage of the resources and media that I know about.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12970             As a life resident of Kelowna, I believe I carry a pulse for the city.  I know that a radio station such as Shine FM with Touch Canada would be warmly welcomed and celebrated in the city.  People have been waiting for this to happen for years.  I know it is still in the preliminary process, but the excitement has already begun to stir in the numbers of people.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12971             It is my hope that you respond to the desire of the people here and welcome the programming as we will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12972             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12973             MR. McNICKEL:  Good afternoon, the whole group of you, Commissioners and people sitting on the council.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12974             My name is John McNickel.  I am from Edmonton, Alberta and I work with Young Life.  I oversee our work with teenagers from B.C. to Ontario and have been involved for 25 years.  Recently I have been working on a doctorate degree and particularly studying the value of mentoring teenagers and addressing spiritual needs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12975             The literature is very interesting in that it says that teenagers across North America are in crisis and that crisis is deepening and it is deepening particularly in regards to the many indicators that we often speak of, depression and anxiety and food, eating disorders, alcoholism, dangerous behaviour, really every indicator that has teenagers at risk.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12976             So, those of us who are working with teenagers across North America are very concerned saying this seems to be getting worse and the statistics show that.  So, the question has been placed and has been battered around for quite some time to say what is it that we could really do.  Part of the answer that seems to be coming up is that we need systemic change for the way that we function as a culture and just the sense of community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12977             One of the things that has been studied is that the human being needs connection to other human beings.  This is how we are formed.  This is how we are loved into loving, cared into caring and we become the people that we are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12978             So, one of the things that seems to be happening is somehow that teenagers and others are being disconnected from their family, from the rest of the community and the other age groups, and in their isolation, they sometimes choose to connect quite deeply to their peer group or to their media or to parts of culture that are available to them and, therefore, they become informed and in some ways culturated.  They assimilate with that which is around them and they become like that which is around them.  An expression I like to use sometimes is as a twig bends a tree grows.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12979             One of the concerns that we have is that we need to strengthen community, and the solution seems to be to create much stronger connection for families, for the school, for everyone that is working and living in a community to have connection to teenagers.  If there is greater connection, then those teenagers will feel that they are a part of something larger than themselves and they will perhaps at times receive the Eldership, the mentoring and the guidance that prevents them from doing some of the stupid things that they do, which are foolish and get them into trouble simply because they are willing to experiment, they are willing to follow a peer pressure, they are willing to listen to an idea and think, well, I will try that out.  They are a very experimental group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12980             Unfortunately, it is leading to more deaths just in their risk behaviour.  They will see something on TV, an extreme behaviour and there is more accidents happening that is causing death.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12981             One idea is that kids were having fun in sort of a rash of activity where they were lying down on the highway on the yellow line while the trucks were going by to say this would be fun.  Really, the concept is that what if somebody were to speak to them at that time and say, well, let's play soccer instead, maybe an adult in their lives and in fact many of these kids would say, sure, you know, we're not that interested in lying on a yellow line; we just want to have a good time.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12982             What I am leading to is that there is this need for community.  It is a need for all human beings.  It is not just teenagers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12983             But I think that what radio can do is get into moments in people's lives and speak to them, and that is what communication does at all times.  I wanted to speak of two stories where I have been touched by radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12984             One was with Jean Vanier and the Massey Lecture Series and him talking about the value of human beings.  He was a person who committed his life, although he was from a family of great wealth in eastern Canada, he committed his life to loving disabled persons.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12985             As a wise Elder in our country, he is recognized as somebody who could teach us what it is to be human.  In his teachings I found listening to the radio one time that I pulled over to say, wow, this guy is really encouraging me.  This man is changing and affirming my ideas that we ought to care for one another.  We ought to be a strong community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12986             I think we all know that that is what we want and I think the fear possibly of this council is that the Christian element might be a fundamentalist group that would lead to some of the fundamentalist problems that are all over the world.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12987             I just want to say that there are many in the Christian community like Jean Vanier who are strong leaders, who have a contribution to make and the people who are working in Touch Canada are really making an effort to guide people towards positive alternatives, positive directions and to do it with great wisdom and not the fundamental foolishness that sometimes is available.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12988             It is sad that that exists but I don't think the fear of it should deter you from encouraging this radio station, particularly with the reputation they have in other communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12989             One other story I would like to tell is that we had a couple of miscarriages and then we were told that we were going to miscarry and we waited for my daughter and after 20 weeks they told us it was going to happen again.  I have a little daughter and two sons and she was delivered.


LISTNUM 1 \l 12990             About three months after that, I was just cruising the radio, driving home from work and I heard a song and it was ‑‑ I am almost embarrassed to say ‑‑ it was called Butterfly Kisses.  But what that song said was here is a father who wants to love his daughter and, for whatever reason, I was moved, I cried, I had to pull over to say I am excited, my daughter is alive.  But radio will reach into people's lives and in certain moments will, I think, inspire them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12991             When this particular station has the goal of enabling community and bringing health to the community, including a spiritual orientation, I don't think it needs to be feared, but it could be extremely positive for the community, and I am hopeful that you will allow that to happen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12992             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12993             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you to all of you for your presentation today.  Glad you could make it, in Mr. McNickel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12994             I will ask Commissioner Williams to lead with some questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12995             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good morning, panellists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12996             Ms Jones, in your opinion is the Touch Canada proposal the only applicant that can provide programming that can, in your words I think, positively contribute to the wholesome upbringing and help instill in your children the morals and standards of purity, integrity and justice that local parents want for their children?  Is this the only one?


LISTNUM 1 \l 12997             MS JONES:  I am not exactly aware of all the applicants that have been coming across you guys.  Touch Canada is one that I am familiar with as far as being in Edmonton and being in Calgary, having listened to their programming, listened to their radio station firsthand, as well as knowing many people in both cities that listen to it on a regular basis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12998             It is one that I know that I can feel comfort with, that I am happy to have in my home and playing for my children and for myself listening to that music.  I know that it is the style of music that I like that I will be listening to at home anyways, as well as exposing me to more newer artists out there that would, like Brodie said, take me a lot longer to find and then go, oh, I wish I knew about this earlier.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12999             So, I am not exactly aware of all the other applicants so I can't say for sure to you.  It is one that I firsthand have experience and am familiar with and so that is why I for one really support that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13000             I know it is totally coherent with my values and everything I believe.  So there is going to be no question for me and for a lot of other people I know to just be letting that playing to be a loyal listener.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13001             Does that answer you question?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13002             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  It does.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13003             Ms Czerwinski, we have heard much of protecting children in their formative years.  Could you comment on the benefits to, say, young adults and older population of this type of programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13004             MS CZERWINSKI:  My experience with them in Calgary and stuff is that they also have programming specifically for teens, not just for my age group as well.  I believe on Saturdays they have very contemporary, upbeat, the newest of the newest coming out for teens and young adults, things that they can really get their teeth into and be excited about and emulate is actually a lot of what you see is happening.  They have little bands and they play for their friends and what they play is what they hear, and I think it covers that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13005             Also I believe on the weekend they turn more of a focus during the day, is my understanding, to more of a kind of a dial down for the seniors, that kind of a thing.  It is a little more contemporary.  It is a softer rock for those kinds of people.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13006             So I believe that they cover all those areas in their programming, and all of those areas, the content is still moral, it is still family orientated, it is still fun, and it is still safe.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13007             So, for me in all the stages of my family, as they grow, they will continue to be able to be blessed by this station, to listen to this station and have absolutely no fear of the content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13008             Did I answer?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13009             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You did.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13010             Mr. Kalamen, is this type of programming something that you personally would imagine listening to for a full life?  Do you listen to other broadcasters?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13011             There are two questions there.  Do you listen to other broadcasters or is this type of programming the only type that you are interested in?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13012             MR. KALAMEN:  As I mentioned earlier, Kelowna is the only place I have ever lived so I haven't had the chance to actually live in Calgary or Edmonton or Vancouver where I have been exposed to Christian radio otherwise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13013             So, what I have done is, like I said, I have listened to a lot of CDs.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13014             But recently I have been listening to the radio stations that we have in place right now, and I enjoy the radio.  I enjoy the music and things, but I know I would be tuned in, I know I would be tuned in to that specific station.  That would probably be the station that my wife and I would tune into and the one I would listen to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13015             So, it would be specific to me, yes.  The answer would be yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13016             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13017             Mr. McNickel, the teenager community connection, do you know much about Shine's programming that is directed towards the teenage audience?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13018             MR. McNICKEL:  Yes, I do.  Sorry, I am not familiar with every program, but I am aware of kids who are listening and enjoying the music.  I would say that the demographic of the listener definitely includes some teenagers who are interested in that music, although not all for sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13019             But I would say it tends to be contemporary and not the classic gospel that the Elders would like in their Christian listening, and so to me it goes right up to the soccer moms.  I think there are a lot more moms that are listening than men.  I think there are a lot of teenagers who are listening in particular segments to say, well, this is my time to hear my DJ and there is an audience that is doing that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13020             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you very much.  That concludes my line of questioning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13021             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you all very much for your participation in these proceedings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13022             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13023             THE SECRETARY:  I would now call the Okanagan Symphony Orchestra to come up to the presentation table.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 13024             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with Caroline Miller from the Okanagan Symphony Orchestra.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13025             Ms Miller, you have ten minutes for your presentation.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13026             MS MILLER:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13027             I am the General Manager of the Okanagan Symphony Orchestra.  While I didn't originally think I was going to be able to be here today due to a scheduling conflict, I am delighted that I am able to make an appearance.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13028             I had invited several of our young symphony players to be with me this morning, but unfortunately they appear to be locked in their classrooms at school.  And while radio station CJVR very kindly offered to give them a note so that they could be absent, their parents, no doubt wisely, declined.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13029             I am here because CJVR came to see me last spring and wanted to learn more about music in the Okanagan community, live music in our case.  The Okanagan Symphony was formed in 1960.  We have between 45 and 65 musicians who play at each of our concerts throughout the year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13030             Our musicians are professional classical trained musicians, and the Okanagan Symphony Orchestra is the third largest professional orchestra in the province.  We are very proud of our heritage and will be celebrating our 50th anniversary in 2010.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13031             At that time, we will be performing for the first time, a commissioned work, Canadian commissioned work, which will celebrate our 50th anniversary, under the baton of our new music director, Rosemary Thompson, who is moving here from the Calgary Philharmonic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13032             When CJVR came to see me, they spent a fair bit of time finding out a bit about our symphony orchestra, what our needs were and how we interact with our community.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13033             We are not the Kelowna Symphony.  We are the Okanagan Symphony and, as such, we perform each concert cycle up and down the Valley.  We perform in the Vernon Performing Arts Centre, which seats 750; we perform in Kelowna at the Community Theatre, which seats almost 900 people; and in Penticton at the Cleland Theatre seating 450.  We perform as far north as Salmon Arm and as far south as Oliver and Osoyoos.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13034             We are very much an institution in the Valley.  About 80 per cent of our musicians live and work in the Valley.  They work as musicians in the orchestra, of course, in our 19 concerts each year and that is excluding our educational program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13035             The other 20 per cent, we fly in from Edmonton, Calgary and Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13036             The needs of our educational program are significantly different from those of our regular concert program.  A concert cycle costs us in excess of $85,000, and we perform generally three nights and have three or four days of rehearsals.  This covers hall rental, ticket fees, advertising and promotion, payments to our musicians, including expenses and series fees.  We are covered under a union agreement, as well as guest artist fees, stage management, truck rental and so forth.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13037             The educational program, on the other hand, the shows tend to be a bit shorter because of attention span.  So, rather than two and a half hours with an intermission, our educational shows generally run about 45 minutes.  These programs reach children from the ages of seven to 15.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13038             These programs are run in theatres.  They are run with work books which the children receive in the late fall, and the programs are run in the spring after the school teachers have had a chance to work with their children.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13039             This is only one aspect of our educational program.  It has several other arms.  We send our professional musicians into the schools to work with bands, music groups, choirs and to do special workshops.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13040             Last year we did a saxophone workshop at one of the middle schools in Kelowna and it was attended so well that we kept running it throughout the day and eventually had I think upwards of 200 to 300 students attending.  Fortunately it was timed along with one of our concerts and we offered a special to teachers and staff and parents.  So, we had a grand turnout that night at the concert in Kelowna.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13041             Other parts of our educational program, which CJVR was particularly interested in, was the programming that we are developing to reach middle adults, I would call middle adults 35 to 45 or 50 years of age, and then the older demographic ranging from, let's say, 55 up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13042             Individuals in the Okanagan Valley appear to keep going right through.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13043             We have players in our community orchestras who are well into their seventies and eighties.  We have attendees at our concerts who get there one way or the other and have been attending for many, many years.  Lots of these individuals call us.  They want to find out more about the music.  They come to our pre‑concert lectures.  They come to our post‑concert Q and A session which is called After Thoughts, and we are this year developing a program for taking adults into musicians' workshops where the musicians are building cellos, building harpsichords, working on violins, writing music, composing, building guitars and essentially broadening the depth and understanding of our community for classical music.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13044             This all costs money.  Our budget, although we are the third largest orchestra in British Columbia, is just under three‑quarters of a million dollars a year.  This certainly pales in comparison to the Vancouver Symphony budget of around $15 million a year.  Their educational program is well funded and funded primarily through their endowments.  We launched an endowment last year which we hope in the next ten years will begin to fully fund some of our new series such as our workshop programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13045             Another way that we reach into the community with information is through interviews, and we have found in past years that interviews with our music director and our guest artists on the radio have appeared to be an excellent way to reach our demographic.  They take questions from the interviewer; they play bits of the music that is going to be performed at the upcoming concert and we also send musicians and young musicians into the radio studios.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13046             CJVR has very wisely, I think, incorporated this kind of a component in what they call their indirect funding initiative.  Their direct funding initiative I thought was wisely drawn.  It grows over a period of seven years from a rather small component in year one to a much larger component by year seven and, in fact, would total over $100,000 total by the end of year seven.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13047             This is money that would help us offset the cost to our children for the educational program.  We do have children from home schoolers to the public schools who are not able to attend the concerts because there is no funding.  We currently apply for grants to help offset the cost of the educational concerts, but the grant funding falls woefully below the actual costs to the orchestra of presenting these concerts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13048             Currently we are performing the school and the educational program on what I would call a deficit basis.  We are trying to find funding from sources that in fact are not included in our budget.  But education is hugely important to us and we are committed to finding ways of keeping these programs going.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13049             I have talked a lot about the orchestra because I know a lot more about symphony orchestra management than I do about radio licences.  So I don't present myself as any sort of an expert on CJVR.  I can say our audience for our regular concert season totals about 13,000 throughout the Valley for the school program, up to 8,000, and the potential for growth, as this Valley continues to grow, with our audience catchment area being around 250,000, I think is limited certainly but there is a lot of room for growth and for success.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13050             I would be delighted to take any questions.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13051             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms Miller, thank you.  I just have a couple of questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13052             You talked about the funding for the orchestra obviously, and the basis for your support of CJVR is that part of it is what we call Canadian Content Development spending will be directed to your orchestra.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13053             MS MILLER:  Uh‑hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13054             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You mentioned that you are applying for grants as one of your sources of funding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13055             What are your other sources?  Do you have sponsorship?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13056             MS MILLER:  For the educational component we do apply for grants to the Cherniesky Foundation, as well as our overall program is funded approximately 30 per cent from ticket sales, 30 per cent from major funders, which would be federal government, Canada Council, provincial government, Gaming, B.C. Arts and municipal governments, North Okanagan Regional District, city of Kelowna, city of Penticton.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13057             For the educational program, the funding scenario is not quite so black and white, and the other 30 per cent that I didn't mention comes from private donations, sponsorships.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13058             So, while we are proceeding to look for sponsorship for the educational program, there is a lot of competition for those funds, and I would say at this point that even if we pursue private sponsorships for that, because the Okanagan Valley is not a centre of head offices, it is very difficult and the retailers and the businesses here do tend to be asked perhaps out of proportion to their ability to sponsor and to donate.  That impacts all arts organizations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13059             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And the 30 per cent, let's call it the public funding from Heritage, et cetera, is that guaranteed for a long term or do you have to negotiate that year after year?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13060             MS MILLER:  Every year.  Every year it is an application, every year it is an unknown.  It makes budgeting very dramatically challenging.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13061             We do always ask for a small increase based on our needs, but public funding is limited as well.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13062             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The educational programs, I ask this only because you come to us as the symphony orchestra and the format for which CJVR has applied does not necessarily lend itself the symphonic music, but it is your position that it is through the educational programs that the students don't necessarily have to end up participating in the symphony or working in the symphony but could branch out into other forms of music?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13063             MS MILLER:  I guess it is our belief that young people, and really people of any age, but if you can start with young people and move them into a concert hall or into any opportunity for them to see live music, feel, experience live music, it really is a transforming experience and especially, I think, for generations who are increasingly brought up with the perfect sound of a recording, a CD, a DVD, where the music and the imagines perhaps have been manipulated and re‑manipulated to a state of perfection that is seldom achieved at a concert hall.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13064             It is marvellous to watch.  The enthusiasm of the young children and particularly the very young ones as they sit in the chair and they realize that these sounds they have been hearing on television or radio are actually being made by human beings on a stage 20, 30, 50 feet away from them with instruments that many of them haven't even seen before, and I am talking about the much younger ones.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13065             For the older students who are in a band or an orchestra program they are, I think, encouraged and in some cases slightly overwhelmed by how well it is possible to play one of these instruments that they are struggling with or struggling with the flute or saxophone or the trombone or the trumpet in the school band and they realize that on stage in front of them is someone who is playing with great fluency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13066             The transforming experience of being in concert hall with live music is one that can enhance any individual's life at any age, and to turn on the radio and hear Blended Country or to hear New Age music or Rock or Pop, so many Eric Clapton, so many musicians, Ian Tyson have classical trained music backgrounds.  That is where they started.  The hard work of learning to read music, learning an instrument, learning what it is like to be in a band.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13067             I can tell you that two of the applicants who appeared before you for the CJVR application, one was a trombonist for four or five years in his high school youth symphony, another was a trumpet player who has then appeared on stage with the Saskatoon Symphony Orchestra playing Tympany.  It is not a black and white world out there and music and music education should be available to anyone at all levels and all forms.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13068             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for your participation here, Ms Miller.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13069             MS MILLER:  Thank you for listening to me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13070             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13071             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13072             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13073             I would now call the Minstrel Cafe and Bar, Danny McBride, Phil McGrew and Sheila, Rachel and Alisha MacGregor to come up to the presentation table.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13074             Minstrel Cafe and Bar, Danny McBride, Phil McGrew and Sheila, Rachel and Alisha MacGregor will appear as a panel to present their interventions.  We will start with Minstrel Cafe and Bar.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13075             Please introduce yourself, and you will have ten minutes for your presentation.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13076             MR. ANDERSON:  Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13077             My name is Clare Anderson.  I am an operating partner at the Minstrel Cafe.  Prior to that I was an operating partner at the Sidetrack Cafe in Edmonton, Alberta, where for 15 years we presented one of the strongest live musical formats in the country seven nights a week.  Eight years ago I arrived in Kelowna and welcomed the opportunity to develop a restaurant live entertainment venue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13078             One of the challenges in doing so is finding the proper mediums to expose music and entertainment, entertainers, performers to its populace.  As Kelowna has grown exponentially, I don't feel that the radio medium has caught up or is providing the same opportunity that larger centres, more developed centres have the ability or servicing other areas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13079             Deep Waters' application is exciting in that it allows an operator such as myself an opportunity to work with an independent station and help support to a greater extent the entertainers that tour across the country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13080             By example, one of the most profiled recognition of Canadian artists is the Juno Awards, and it is not even so much about the winners, it is about if you break it down to the different genres, the nominees in each category, right there you have a core of 150 musical artists that are very worthy; they take their craft seriously; it is their life; they go about it for the right reasons.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13081             There is musical integrity.  It is a challenge to find the radio stations that are committed to exposing it to the populace, to the listening audience.  What is formatted now is so often not about musical integrity.  I think the stations know what they are doing and why they are limited, but, again, you have to hope that there can be a difference made.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13082             Again, you get artists that they are not glorified karaoke singers or winning idol competitions; they are no sort of over blown celebrities.  They are the heart, the roots of what music should be in this country.  We play a small part by trying to facilitate their performances here and, in terms of understanding that, it is sorely missed that people can't just turn on the radio and listen to these performers and particularly it is exciting at the ground breaking level when they are just beginning to get recognized and develop their craft.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13083             This is a lifetime for them.  I mean, you get young performers in their teens and they go on and they become elder states men in their fifties sixties, that is still their life, that is what they are doing; we see them at every stage of their life through that.  It is very rewarding when you get the response and that interaction on a full house.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13084             I just find it very limiting in terms of Kelowna and the Okanagan in general in terms of the perception of what radio, what musical content should be.  Again, that is why I am here in support of Deep Waters' application because there needs to be a difference and something that is receptive to what exists now a days.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13085             Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13086             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with Mr. Danny Mcbride.  You have 10 minutes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13087             MR. McBRIDE:  My name is Danny McBride.  I have lived in Kelowna for nine years.  I am a native of Toronto, but I have also lived in Vancouver, Los Angeles and London, England.  I am a record producer, a composer.  I am was once a CBS recording artist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13088             I have been in the entertainment business for over 35 years and have been fortunate enough to have worked with some of the greatest names in the industry.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13089             As a recording artist, I have released two solo records, one with CBS New York and the other with CBS in the UK.  As a co‑producer, recording artist and session player, I have had the incredible opportunity of working hand‑in‑hand with 12 of the most sought after producers in the world.  To name a few:  Daniel Lanois, who produced U2, Peter Gabriel, Rupert Hine who produced Tina Turner, Keith Smith who produced Sting, Jack Richardson, a Canadian icon, Jack produced the Guess Who, Pink Floyd, Peter Gabriel and Bob Seger and finally Bob Johnson.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13090             Bob Johnson produced several artists including Simon and Garfunkel, Bob Dylan, Johnny Cash and Willy Nelson.  Bob is probably the most amazing person I have ever worked with.  Besides being a legend and maybe the greatest producer in America, he was like a brother and a father to me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13091             I also spent 15 years travelling the world as Chris de Burgh's lead guitarist and was instrumental in helping Chris sell upwards to 47 million records world wide ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13092             Starting out in the business in Toronto during the early sixties was quite a challenge.  I was in my early teens and a high school drop out.  I thought if I did one more crazy thing my parents would hire a hit man and have me whacked.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13093             But as luck would have it, my group at the times, Transfusion, became the house band in a music venue called the Rock Pile.  The Rock Pile was quite a place, and at age 17 I found myself opening for groups like Led Zeppelin, Blood Sweat and Tear and Rod Stewart and so on.  The manager of the Rock Pile soon became my manager.  He also became the biggest promoter in Canada, bringing in acts like The Doors, Jimmy Hendrix, John Lennon and others.  It was a wonderful, yet somewhat cruel time because many of the most talented people I knew never got a break and I believe that was because there were no programs out there like the Rising Star Initiative to support them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13094             It basically came down to the luck of the draw.  My manager eventually got me a deal as a solo artist with CBS and by the time I was 20 I was in the UK working on my first album, which I am positive by now has been turned into so many frisbees.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13095             My brother Bob McBride, also an entertainer, was a lead singer in a Juno Awards winner group Lighthouse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13096             My intention today is not to sound pretentious, but I am rather hoping to establish the kind of credibility and support that will support my opinions and belief with regards to the Deep Waters media petition.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13097             I believe Kelowna is missing a radio station that appeals to a slightly more urban, sophisticated listening audience.  Kelowna is growing and evolving at a tremendous rate and is attracting people from all over Canada, the U.S. and abroad.  The city is rapidly developing the desire for cultural change and diversification in many areas, including radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13098             Every time I throw a dinner party I find myself running to my CD collection looking for something that is easy and enjoyable to listen to.  That is exactly what I think we will get when we tune into this new and innovative station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13099             Most importantly is Deep Waters' focus and commitment to home grown talent which is shown not only by their promise to dedicate 40 per cent airplay entirely to Canadian content but by their contribution to close and upwards to $600,000 to the local music scene.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13100             The Rising Staff Initiative in itself is a milestone and I would believe will further the careers of many emerging local artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13101             I have been totally overwhelmed with the amount of talent that exists in the Okanagan.  It is absolutely remarkable, and sitting to my right, one of the MacGregors, is a prime example of what I am talking about.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13102             I believe that with a little encouragement in the form of a financial kick start and professional guidance in the form of record production and radio airplay that we will soon see many Okanagan performers at the top of the charts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13103             I am a partner in a production company called ZMS Music.  We have created a state‑of‑the‑art recording studio here in Kelowna primarily because of the potential we see in local artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13104             I know that on a production level, ZMS would be honoured and thrilled to become involved with the Rising Star Initiative to help provide the guidance, the support and the professionalism needed to ensure that the music produced would be of the highest quality.  Although ZMS is a new company, we have connections throughout the industry and world wide, including major labels and some of the biggest promoters in the business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13105             When I first started out in this business there was no one helping us get our music played on the radio, let alone paying us to get it out there.  So I think it is time we created a platform for young deserving artists like the MacGregors so they can show the rest of Canada, and maybe the world, just what they've got.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13106             Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13107             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with Mr. Phil McGrew.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13108             You have ten minutes for your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13109             MR. McGREW:  Thank you.  Good morning, Madam Chairman and members of the Commission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13110             You do have a letter on file from my daughter, Bonnie, and her singing partner, Kelsy Ny.  Like many struggling artists, they are both working and going to UBC this morning so were unable to be here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13111             It was many years ago, but my first career I was in the radio business for about five or six years, and while my experience in radio is somewhat limited, I must say I was very excited and impressed when I read the application by Deep Waters.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13112             The deep Waters application demonstrates support for local talent, a strong support for emerging artists by playing a heavy percentage of these artists, whether you are in my let's call it the somewhere around 50 demographic or whether you are in my daughter's 19‑20 demographic, how long have we longed for a station that did not play the same superstar Canadian artists over and over just to adhere to the Canadian content?  And the 40 per cent of the 40 per cent dedicated to emerging artists is refreshing and a great alternative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13113             Deep Waters also demonstrates strong financial support to the local music scene through the Rising Star Initiative, and that is what I would like to focus on this morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13114             Four artists each year would receive $10,000 towards creation of a CD and, more importantly, would receive regular airplay and heavy promotion.  This is an invaluable service, as I can attest to firsthand.  For a few years I have been helping to manage this young band and I know all too well how difficult and how expensive it is to complete a properly produced CD, but as well, how even more difficult it is to promote that CD and to receive airplay once you have it in your hands.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13115             By way of background, the band I have been involved with, they won the Okanagan Grown Contest.  They have received some limited airplay, thanks to SUN‑FM and to the CBC.  Their first CD received very positive reviews, sold almost 1,000 copies through Canada and even other parts of the world.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13116             They have appeared at the New Music West showcase.  They have shared the stage with Juno winners, Greg Siebel and Fefe Dobson.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13117             But without ongoing promotion, airplay and distribution, it is hard to maintain momentum, even harder to get discovered, as they say.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13118             Young artists who wish to make music a career constantly struggle with these issues.  The Rising Star program will certainly help some of the better ones to hopefully break through, and I suspect will have a real impact on the careers of these young artists, local artists.  Also, quite impressed with the way the Rising Star program has been structured.  So, rather than writing a cheque to the artist, Deep Waters has arranged for proper recording facilities, renowned producers with experience and connection in the industry, such as Mr. McBride and a mechanism to help promote and provide airplay for these artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13119             So, obviously Deep Waters also has the experience and resources to be of real assistance to the artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13120             With any luck, a great song or a great group that is discovered in Kelowna may soon receive airplay on other JACK‑FM formats throughout the country.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13121             The artist can also gain additional exposure by participating in some of the many local festivals and events of which this station would be an integral part.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13122             I also would like to make a word on FACTOR if I could.  I know that FACTOR does do admirable work, but I believe it falls short of helping the independent or undiscovered artist.  Many of the FACTOR grants go to established artists or to record labels.  Once an artist is already represented by a record label, they already have some notoriety and a leg up.  This is where I see in my experience a large, yet unnoticed, void in the development of Canadian artists.  It is a level that I call close to but just below FACTOR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13123             I am sure you have heard this complaint before.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13124             These artists have some recognition.  They get great reviews.  They have great potential, but they are needing help with their radio airplay, publicity and eventually management and distribution.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13125             In short, I believe the Rising Star program as established by Deep Waters to be innovative, unique and I think it has huge potential.  Yet, this is obviously only one facet of a very thorough programming plan by Deep Waters.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13126             Thank you for your time and I would be happy to answer any questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13127             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with Ms MacGregor.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13128             Ms MacGregor, please state your first name for the record, and you will then have ten minutes for your presentation.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13129             MS. RACHEL MacGREGOR:  My name is Rachel MacGregor.  Sheila and Alisha aren't with me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13130             I am really happy to be here.  I am part of a group called the MacGregors which is a music duo with my sister, who is in school today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13131             The MacGregors have released two CDs up to date.  We are working on our third right now, and I will give a bit of an overview of some of the things that we have done.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13132             We have had a lot of our success in songwriting.  A couple of examples, the International Songwriting Competition, my sister and I have both been winners in it.  I won the teen category in 2003, with my sister being a semi‑finalist that year.  And two years later my sister won and I was third.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13133             One of the prizes that is given out as being a winner in the teen category is a full scholarship to the Berkley College of Music in Boston for their summer performance program.  So my sister and I both had the privilege of going there for a summer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13134             My sister entered another songwriting competition while she was there and won that and is able to go to Berkley for another summer program on another full scholarship.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13135             She was also a finalist in the uni‑song songwriting competition, and I was a finalist in the John Lennon songwriting competition, both of which are international songwriting competitions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13136             Through the John Lennon songwriting competition, we got the opportunity to go perform at NAAM in Anaheim last January.  If you are unfamiliar with NAAM, it is a huge music convention; over 20,000 people all in the music industry, huge names there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13137             Our big story from there is my sister was walking down the stairs and Stevie Wonder grabbed her hand as he was walking down the stairs.  He didn't realize who she was, but that was the type of people you were rubbing shoulders with the whole time, which is absolutely amazing.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13138             We have also been to Canadian Music Week in Toronto and Music West a couple of times in Vancouver.  We just came back last week from a two‑month tour of Europe where we kind of performed all over at schools and community events and coffee shops and stuff like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13139             I am just going to kind of talk a bit about the struggles of being an emerging artist in Canada.  It is tough to get on the radio and even tougher once you have even got a couple of spins on the radio to get anything from that.  It is a huge financial commitment to get anything on the radio.  We know people who have put a ton of money into hiring radio tractors and doing the whole radio thing, but you don't get a lot of return from it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13140             It would be great to have a radio station that really actually supported emerging artists and gave them more than the 3:00 a.m. slot Canadian content in the middle of the night.  It would be really positive for us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13141             Also, our genre doesn't quite fit into the Country station and you have the Rock station and the Adult Contemporary and then your Top 40 station, which we would probably fit easier into the Top 40 station but because you are not Top 40 you don't get played on that station.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13142             We also are kind of a multi‑genre because we do almost a bit folk and then sometimes it is a bit pop rock and we also add a bit of celtic influence as well because we started as a celtic fiddle group back when we were ten years old.  We keep the violin aspect in it as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13143             With that, we talked with some radio stations and they have a hard time finding a spot for us because we have all of these multi‑genre things going on that don't quite make us fit into your very specific focused group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13144             So, Deep Waters is great because it is playing music that isn't on the conventional radio right now and it is different music and it is stuff that I think people really want to listen to.  It gives a chance for artists like us to have a spot to play our music because we do have success in some things with songwriting and stuff like that and you know that you are pretty good at what you are doing but no one ever gets to hear it because there is not really a spot in your specific radio stations right now for it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13145             So, that makes us quite excited about Deep Waters.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13146             Also, the Rising Star Initiative is really great for emerging artist support because it is imperative to have a quality product.  Your music recorded well so you can compete with other artists out there, but it is a huge financial investment.  When you are not making any money as an emerging artist really, it is tough to be able to constantly be pouring money into it when you don't have all that money to pour into it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13147             So, the financial support, as well as the promotional support of the Rising Star Initiative would be a great ‑‑ the Okanagan is full of musicians that could be great because they are amazing.  Actually, it is ridiculous when you go into the Okanagan Music Awards just how many emerging artists we have in the Okanagan Valley here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13148             I think there is a real need for it and there is a real need for a radio station that plays stuff that is not already out there right now on the radio in Kelowna.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13149             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13150             Commissioner Morin, do you have any questions?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13151             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13152             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am almost embarrassed to be in front of so much talent.  Thank you very much for being here today.  I do have a couple of questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13153             Ms MacGregor, I notice on your letter in particular you do use My Space.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13154             MS MacGREGOR:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13155             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is a way, I am sure, to have people become aware of your music.  Is it your position, therefore, that that is just not enough, that if you don't get on radio you just can't make it in this country as an artist?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13156             MS MacGREGOR:  There are a lot of people who are doing it with My Space right now, but radio is still the number one spot where people hear a song on the radio and they like it, then they go search for the My Space for it after that.  It is hard for people to just search out of no where the MacGregors or to find things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13157             To get on radio is very important for people to hear about you and get exposure that way.  But with My Space, I have found that it also kind of shows people's hunger for new music, how there are a lot of people making it on My Space because people are searching for new music and want to hear different stuff than what is on the radio right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13158             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Your peers, other than places like My Space, they are still relying on radio to get exposed to new music?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13159             MS MacGREGOR:  Yes.  That is basically where they listen to their music, unless they have been told about something that they should go search up on My Space, where they are finding the music is on the radio and what they see on Much Music and things like that.  It is very tied into the media which is out right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13160             THE CHAIRPERSON:  If any of the other panellists wish to address this issue, I would be glad to hear you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13161             MR. McGREW:  You do get paid when your song is played on the radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13162             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that is a big fact, I am sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13163             I thank you all very much for your participation.  As you can imagine, this hearing certainly isn't an exception, but oftentimes we are faced with the embarrassment of choice because of who the applicants are and what they have put forward.  Certainly the interventions from participants such as yourselves and everyone else who appeared in this phase certainly help us to make our decisions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13164             Thank you all very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13165             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13166             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13167             This completes the list of appearing intervenors and Phase III.  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13168             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  We will take a 15‑minute break and we will come back at a quarter to 12:00, where we will start Phase IV of this part of the hearing.  We will then break for lunch.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13169             It is the intention of the Commission to hear both the CMES application, as well as the Pattison application.  So I am putting on notice both of those applicants and their intervenors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13170             If for any reason we can't do that, please inform our Hearing Secretary, Ms Ventura.  But it is our intention to complete the hearing by the end of the day today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13171             Thank you.  We will be back in 15 minutes.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1130 / Suspension à 1130

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1148 / Reprise à 1148

LISTNUM 1 \l 13172             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with Phase IV in which applicants can reply to all interventions submitted on their applications.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13173             We have been informed that Corus Radio Company and In‑House Communications Inc. will not be appearing in this phase.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13174             Applicants appear in the reverse order.  We would now ask Deep Waters Media Inc. to come up to the presentation table.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13175             Please restate your name and you have ten minutes for your presentation.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 13176             MS HOMMY:  My name is Hillary Hommy with Deep Waters Media.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13177             We have nothing to add to any of the interventions or the applications.  We just wanted to thank you again for hearing our application and thanks for coming to Kelowna ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13178             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13179             THE SECRETARY:  We would now ask Radio CJVR Limited to come up to the presentation table.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13180             Please restate your name for the record, and you have ten minutes for your presentation.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 13181             MR. SINGER:  Thank you.  My name is Ken Singer, Vice‑President of Radio CJVR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13182             First of all, thank you, Madam Chair, Commissioners and staff for a very excellent hearing and an opportunity to present here this week.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13183             We would also like to acknowledge our appreciation to our intervenors who wrote letters on our behalf and, in particular, to Caroline Miller of the Okanagan Symphony, who took time to appear here today on our behalf.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13184             Just as an aside to comments made yesterday by Curtis Tulman of the Cruzeros, appearing in support of Sun Country and his reference that stations in Saskatchewan make their playlist decisions based on input from Nashville, I just wish to point out that this is clearly not the situation when it comes to programming the music on our country stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13185             We are very proud of our commitment to expose Canadian independent artists, including the Cruzeros, and the industry has recognized this by naming our station an unprecedented 12 times as Saskatchewan Country Music Station of the Year, six CMM Awards as Canadian Country Station of the Year, and just two months ago our Canadian Coast‑To‑Coast program was named Country Program of the Year by the Canadian Country Music Association, competing with several CMT programs that were nominated in this category.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13186             We can only surmise that Mr. Tulman was referring to other country station operators in Saskatchewan, as we checked our records and found that we have 15 Cruzeros songs on our playlist, receiving 447 spins on CJVR since May 2005.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13187             Further, since November a year ago, the Cruzeros have received 63 spins on our Melfort station and a similar amount on our Whitecourt Country station and we are very proud of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13188             In addition, the band has been featured several times on our Canadian Coast‑To‑Coast radio show.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13189             Given the opportunity to bring Country 96 to Kelowna, I wish to assure the Commission and independent artists such as the Cruzeros that CJVR's commitment to promote and expose local Canadian artists will be very evident.  We look forward to the opportunity and to play them and others to a home town audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13190             Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13191             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Singer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13192             I have been reminded ‑‑ it is great having the staff here ‑‑ that we need to ask you to confirm your over and above CCD commitment because the figure we have is $953,298 over the seven years of the licence term.  Is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13193             MR. SINGER:  We submitted a spreadsheet yesterday showing our calculations, and I just want to be clear.  Are you asking the difference between our commitment to FACTOR and the $1 million?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13194             THE CHAIRPERSON:  As you know, according to the 2006 policy, there is a basic amount that each radio operator must contribute based on previous year's revenues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13195             MR. SINGER:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13196             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So, that is your base amount.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13197             MR. SINGER:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13198             THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is the over and above.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13199             MR. SINGER:  Over and above the base amount?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13200             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Over and above the base amount.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13201             MR. SINGER:  It is the 953.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13202             THE CHAIRPERSON:  $953,298.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13203             MR. SINGER:  Yes, it is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13204             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you will accept that as a condition of licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13205             MR. SINGER:  Yes, we will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13206             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Now I can let you go.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13207             MR. SINGER:  And thank you again.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13208             THE SECRETARY:  We would now call on Northern Native Broadcasting (Terrace, B.C.) to come up to the presentation table.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13209             Please restate your name for the record, and you have ten minutes for your presentation.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 13210             MR. BARTLETT:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13211             My name is Ron Bartlett.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13212             MS TERBASKET:  My name is Lynne Terbasket.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13213             MR. WESLEY:  I am William Wesley.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13214             MR. BARTLETT:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13215             Again, I thank you for this opportunity, as I am sure everyone in the room appreciates they don't have to go through quite the rigorous consultation that we do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13216             But with respect and our humble apologies for the process.  We fully understand the responsibility of meaningful consultation and intend to engage the Westbank First Nation as Kelowna is their territory.  We didn't find we had adequate time to research and process the application, as well as engage the Westbank First Nation in meaningful consultation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13217             Because of the short time line our intention, should we be privileged to obtain, is to meaningfully consult the Westbank First Nation, accommodating their needs.  Through consultation, our commitment is to establish a stand alone radio station in Kelowna, with full involvement with the Westbank First Nation.  We will be looking to train and staff the radio station, where possible, with their band members, reflecting the culture of the Westbank people in their language and culture broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13218             We, at NNB, Northern Native Broadcasting, above all, have the knowledge and experience with over 20 years of serving the First Nations of B.C.  We feel confident that we will be able to accommodate the needs of the Westbank people and provide a quality First Nations broadcast product that will be an important part of the daily lives of the Westbank First Nations people and the aboriginal population of Kelowna.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13219             That is what I understand that we are applying for, Kelowna.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13220             There was some mention of 3 per cent and we were looking at suggesting 10 or greater.  We have actually consulted the Friendship Society, which is the urban First Nations population, and they are looking at their people being represented as well in this.  There are also Métis and Inuit as well within the area.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13221             One thing that we have tried to do within our northern network is to accommodate the First Nations people in the urban centres as well.  There is actually more people living off reserve, people that have come to Kelowna for work from all parts of British Columbia, Canada and the northwest.  There are Métis people living here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13222             Again, we have had the privilege of meeting with Chief Louie prior to them leaving and the door has been open for us to consult.  So, we plan meaningful consultation.  We have had a very warm and cordial meeting at that point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13223             Unfortunately, again, understanding consultation and explaining it again and being First Nations and understanding our point in consultation, it is more than a word.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13224             Consultation, as designed by law as it has gone forward, is accommodation.  So, again, if we cannot accommodate their needs, then we will look at backing away if we cannot make things go forward.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13225             But, again, the application that is presented to you today was put forward and we are responding to an application.  They had an opportunity as well to respond to the application.  We chose to go ahead with our application and, again, our consultation process, we go on record is going to be meaningful.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13226             With Chief Louie, as Kelowna is the Westbank territory, so other intervenors, if we are applying for Penticton or wherever else, they may come in place, but Chief Louie was the one representing Westbank and that is who we will be consulting for consultation.  If he wants to bring other peoples in, then by all means we will deal with their needs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13227             But we have been very successful in our northern broadcast in accommodating the needs of the First Nations, and there is many diversities, many different areas that we have to work within.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13228             Again, we welcome the opportunity.  There is areas that we can bring in strength with our association, with our Western Association of Aboriginal Broadcasters.  We encompass over 200 communities that are served by our broadcast networks combined together.  We are a society now registered and we share our programming, we share our news.  This Friday night we are broadcasting the APTN Aboriginal Music Awards and on and on.  So we work together.  We bring that strength; we bring our experience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13229             We have had in our region a number of First Nations communities that have tried on their own to do community radio broadcasting and they have failed.  We tried to help them.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13230             It sounds like a really good idea until you have to start paying the bills and eventually money is tight in most communities and you have to pay for them out of social programs or whatever else.  After a couple of years, it implodes in on itself, where we have developed a model that has proven for 20 years.  We are successful and we are wanting to share this model with the Okanagan people, work with them closely and from there benefit the people of Kelowna, the First Nations and aboriginal and Métis people, the people that also need to be represented.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13231             So, our application is global to the First Nations people in this region, but first, again and foremost, we will accommodate and consult with the Westbank First Nation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13232             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So, are we to understand that we are to disregard Chief Louie's intervention this morning based upon a conversation that you had with him after that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13233             MR. BARTLETT:  I don't want to take anything away with what Chief Louie said.  With respect, he is the leader of their nation and his presentation stands as it is.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13234             I have his business card, his contact information that he gave me to continue to consult and that is what we intend to do, to meaningful consult.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13235             Again, the process of consultation from his level, just to give you an idea, in our meetings they would come up with their needs in programming, in language, in culture, in staffing, in board membership.  Those are processes that we would look to accommodating, but we would then have to take it back to our Board of Directors because we are a business as well, to see if there is a business model that we can present.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13236             We don't want to be one of the many, many First Nations community radio stations that go broke after two years.  We don't want to do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13237             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Chief Louie told us this morning that they would be applying for a licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13238             MR. BARTLETT:  They had the opportunity to apply as well now.  So, what you are considering is the application before you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13239             Again, Lord bless Chief Louie, I know he is a very good fellow, a very gracious man and we look forward to working with him in the future.  Again, our assurance is accommodation.  That is in law; we have to do that.  It is consultation and accommodation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13240             Any one that is coming in to do business in First Nations' lands, be it First Nations or not, they have that obligation.  The Westbank can choose where they want to intervene or not in anything.  I understand that fully.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13241             Again, we are planning to work within their processes and work with their needs.  From there, we will go.  But, again, if you could consider the needs of the Métis, the needs of the other First Nations people within Kelowna, as well, we would have to then concern ourselves with their needs because the application is for Kelowna.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13242             So, we are operating in many urban centres, and when our sister stations, Missinipi, NCI from Edmonton, now they are in the number one and two markets in those places where there is a diverse culture of many different nationalities and they are representing the global spectrum of those communities, as the CBC does.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13243             Again, we understand how First Nations' governance in law works and this is our commitment, we can be on record, it can be part of our licence, if you choose to grant it to us, that we would be in full consultation and accommodation with the Westbank First Nation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13244             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you for your answer.  That is all my questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13245             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Bartlett and to your colleagues.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13246             THE SECRETARY:  We would now call Touch Canada Broadcasting Inc. to come up to the presentation table.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13247             Please restate your name for the record, and you have ten minutes for your presentation.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 13248             MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you, Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13249             Allan Hunsperger.  Madam Chair, Commissioners, CRTC staff, first of all I want to thank all our supporting intervenors, particularly the four who appeared before us today.  I would also like to thank you for the special consideration that you showed us that enabled all four to present their views to you.  We deeply appreciate it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13250             We wish you good luck in your deliberations and have a safe trip home.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13251             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Hunsperger.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13252             Go ahead.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13253             THE SECRETARY:  We would now ask Clear Sky Radio Inc. to come up to the presentation table.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13254             For the record, please restate your name, and you have ten minutes four your presentation.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 13255             MR. LARSEN:  Thank you very much.  Paul Larsen.  I am the President of Clear Sky Radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13256             I just want to thank the intervenors who took time to write on behalf of our application, acknowledge the staff and the Chairperson and the Commissioners for your time and diligence, and on the record I just wanted to say how much we appreciate this Kelowna application process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13257             From our previous experience the timing of the whole process from application to hearing has been cut in more than half and we know that the Commission has been working hard on expediency, and I just wanted to say that it is appreciated from our standpoint.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13258             Thank you very much.  Have a safe trip home.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13259             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Larsen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13260             THE SECRETARY:  We would now call CTV Limited to come up to the presentation table.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13261             For the record, please restate your name, and you have ten minutes for your presentation.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 13262             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Thank you, Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13263             Again for the record my name is David Goldstein.  I am the Senior Vice‑President of Regulatory Affairs for CTVglobemedia.  I am joined by Rob Farina, our Vice‑President of Programming Development for CHUM Radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13264             Thank you, Madam Chair, members of the Commission for this opportunity to reply to the oral and written interventions concerning CTVglobemedia's application for Kelowna's AIR‑FM.  We have only a few comments, but first we would like to begin by thanking all of the intervenors who supported our application for AIR‑FM.  They represent a cross‑section of members of the underserved youth audience of Kelowna who are craving a unique local media experience to call their own.  We also received support from parents and youth‑based agencies, as well as underserved advertisers who are looking for a local media experience.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13265             In particular, we would like to thank Mr. Dave Lubbers of UBC Students' Union and Mr. Kris Mickelson of Eventis Management who appeared this morning.  These are clearly two individuals who are deeply involved in the local scene and have provided us with a great deal of insight into the issues facing youth and young adults here in Kelowna and the Cental Okanagan, including their lack of reflection in the current local media landscape.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13266             There were some intervenors that raised issues of localism.  We are excited about the prospect of serving Kelowna and Central Okanagan.  CHUM Radio has had a long history of creating intensely local radio stations in small, mid‑sized and large communities from coast to coast.  Our localism has been well documented, as our stations are managed locally, staffed locally and programmed locally, and we are continually recognized for our community service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13267             We have been an industry leader in local news and information, and as well as ensuring that our stations are a reflection of the cultural diversity in each of the communities that we serve.  We will bring all of these values to Kelowna's AIR‑FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13268             In our view, the evidence in this proceeding was clear.  There is a strong consensus amongst the intervenors and other parties that the local economy is robust and audiences in Kelowna are looking for more choice.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13269             As we stated in our presentation, this is a tale of two cities, one that is increasingly older and one that is increasingly younger, both growing dramatically.  In fact, several parties, including some of the applicants, made a point that licensing AIR‑FM would serve this demographic best and we would have the least impact on the incumbents and other applicants who might be licensed in this process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13270             Moreover, the Commission was quite clear, we believe, in the commercial radio policy when it stated the key challenge was to keep radio relevant.  The Commission also outlined its concern to lower levels of tuning especially amongst young people.  In paragraph 8 of the policy, the Commission stated, and I quote:

"Overall weekly listening levels to conventional radio decreased by roughly one hour and 25 minutes from 1999 to 2005 to 19.1 average weekly hours tuned per capita.  The decrease is most notable in the teen demographic of 12 to 17 and for adults aged from 18 to 34."


LISTNUM 1 \l 13271             Later, in the public notice, paragraph 31, to be specific, the Commission's challenged broadcasters to be more innovative in the new media space, and I quote:

"In addition to continuing to monitor how new distribution technologies for audio programming are affecting the radio industry, the Commission also intends to question radio licensees at licence renewal and new licensing and transfer ownership proceedings about their plans to employ new distribution platforms to the benefit of the Canadian broadcasting system."

LISTNUM 1 \l 13272             We respectfully submit that CTVglobemedia's application for AIR‑FM is the only application in the process that explicitly addressed this challenge as the most direct response to the Commission's Commercial Radio Policy.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13273             We contend that AIR‑FM is the right proposal for Kelowna because, as noted by the intervenors and others, the scale of the underserved youth market is undisputed, our impact on the incumbents and other potential licensees will be minimal, our four‑pronged support for Canadian talent centred on our 40‑40 plan will deliver results.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13274             As intervenors had noted we need to completely embrace all forms of technology available as extensions of the radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13275             AIR‑FMs 360 degree interactive approach reaches out to this age group and their multi‑media environment.  This age group wants radio to step up, change for the better and challenge them in a new way of presenting radio that is customized to their lifestyle.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13276             AIR‑FM not only meets the Commission's key challenge but will provide a truly unique and innovative service to build a new community for young audiences here in the Central Okanagan.  That completes our reply.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13277             We would like to thank Madam Chair, members of the panel, and we would also like to thank the staff, many of whom have been working months on this process, and we welcome your questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13278             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13279             I just have one question and it really is just to complete the circle and complete the record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13280             In an exchange of question and answers on Tuesday, between Commissioner Williams and Mr. Ski, Commissioner Williams did ask Mr. Ski how many new commercial FM stations the market, in his estimation, how many the market could support, and the second part of the question was if we licensed more than one, which of the other applicants would have the least impact and which would have the most.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13281             Mr. Ski answered the first part, wherein he said that the market possibly could have two licences, and that the market is robust and it is growing.  But he didn't answer the second part of the question, and that is:  If we licensed more than one and you were one of the more than one, which of the others would have the least impact and which of the others would have the most?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13282             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  I will obviously agree with Mr. Ski on the first half of the answer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13283             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is probably a good career move.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13284             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  That is right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13285             I would like to extend, if we are working under the precept that we are one of the ones licensed, I would also like to continue with that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13286             I think what we said in the opening statement and we reiterate it today, our research has demonstrated that there are two pools, if you will, demographic pools in the marketplace that are growing dramatically, which is not to say that there isn't a large population here in Kelowna that rests in the middle, but we believe that they are well served by the current radio stations in the market.  We never wanted to leave the impression with the Commission that radio stations in the market now are not doing a good job.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13287             Our research did find that there were two significant pools of growing demographics.  We chose one, the younger demographic.  Other applicants in this process, like Harvard, have chosen another demographic.  I think, as I said in my comments and reiterate, I think if there were two commercial licences to be licensed in this process those are the two choices that would fill the two holes in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13288             THE CHAIRPERSON:  If we were to licence anything else that targeted a younger demographic, that would obviously have the most impact on your proposal, and yet if we were to licence something that targets the older demographic, it would have the least, and within those two groups ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 13289             MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Without prejudice, Madam Chair, I think the applicants at the older end of the scale, given the research that we have done, would not only have the least impact on us but the current incumbents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13290             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Thank you gentlemen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13291             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13292             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13293             We will now proceed with Harvard Broadcasting Inc.  Could you please come up to the presentation table.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13294             For the record, please restate your name, and you will have ten minutes for your presentation.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 13295             MR. COWIE:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13296             For the record, my name is Bruce Cowie, Vice‑President of Broadcasting for Harvard.  With me is Deborah McLaughlin on my right, and Rob Malcolmson on my left.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13297             I would first like to thank the many intervenors who supported our application and, in particular, to Gerry Fraser for coming here yesterday to share his views on Kelowna.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13298             We are here today to briefly reply to the intervention from Astral/Standard regarding the positioning of our proposal and to clarify for the record the distinctiveness of our application when compared to what exists here today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13299             In terms of the concerns expressed by Astral/Standard regarding the 31 per cent duplication with CILK‑FM, we have looked at four measurement metrics.  We examined the duplication in the following areas:  Artists, selection or tracks, crossover in the presentation of eras, and audience distribution.  We have attached charts that will assist you in understanding our assessment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13300             I will ask Deborah McLaughlin to walk you through these schedules.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13301             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Schedule A attached to the presentation summarizes the artist and track duplication, and we presented it on two levels.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13302             The first is market level.  When we look at the proxy station that we have used, which is the Jewel in Ottawa and we look at it at the artist level, we see that only 166 artists or 16.5 per cent of our artist list is in fact available in the market today.  If you take that to the track level, that reduces to 8 per cent, a track being of course the song selection that we would make.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13303             We specifically looked at CILK and we used the most current week, which was last week, and we found that only 153 of the artists that would be on our playlist were currently on CILK.  This represented only 15.2 per cent of our playlist and, when reduced again to the song level, that represented only 7.2 per cent of our playlist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13304             We then looked further into the media base data and, again, for the same period, last week, we broke down the eras, and that is in Schedule B on the following page to the artist and track duplication.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13305             If I can just take you through that.  If we look at 1969 or earlier, CILK had 4.9 per cent of their artists playing or from that era.  We would have 28 per cent.  From 1970 to 1979, they had 17.5 per cent compared to our 6; 1980 to 1989, 24.2 per cent for CILK and 13 per cent for our proposal; 1990 to 1999, 17.5 per cent for CILK, 13 per cent for us; 2000 to 2004, 14.1 per cent for CILK and 25 per cent for us; finally 2005 to present, 21.8 per cent for CILK and 15 per cent for us.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13306             I must point out that the opportunity for a station like Timeless 96.3 to play current music at this level is somewhat of a phenomena given that stations are starting to play this so artists are starting to record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13307             Mr. LeBlanc on Tuesday talked about Rod Stewart and other contemporary artists who are currently starting to perform in the standards because there is an opportunity there is a market, and the list goes on, Cindy Lauper, Carly Simons.  It is quite an extensive list.  So that period of 2000 to present actually represents a new resurgence in the production of Easy Listening and Standard's music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13308             Finally, we also took an audience duplication assessment.  In order to do this, because obviously we are not on air and CILK is, we took a summary of the adult standard groups from BBM.  Sorry, it is in Schedule C.  If you look at this chart, you will see that, in fact, and all of the age breaks are there, the detailed age breaks that BBM provides, but if you look towards the bottom there is four summary lines and I would like to draw your attention to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13309             The average age for CILK audience is 45.4.  I believe we went on record earlier this week saying it was less than 50.  This is actually what BBM shows us.  For the adult standards group currently performing this format, it is 61.1.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13310             The per cent of the audience that is below 35 for CILK is 26.4.  For adult standards it is 5.7.  The per cent of the audience between 25 and 49 for CILK is 29 and for ours it is 9.7.  Finally, the per cent of the audience above 50 is 44.6 for CILK and 84.6 for the adult standards.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13311             MR. COWIE:  Madam Chair, we would also like to address for the Commission numbers that were read into the record regarding our CCD and clarify total commitment, our base commitment and our over and above numbers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13312             Again, I would ask Deborah to read those into the record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13313             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Some day I am going to get to read something other than numbers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13314             Our total commitment is $900,000.  Our total CCD owing under the new policy is $22,872, and our contributions to CCD above the base commitment is $877,128.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13315             MR. COWIE:  In closing, we think that the market can sustain new competition and we think that our proposal properly identifies the largest and fastest growing gap in the market and fills the need created by a missing older format.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13316             Thank you very much for your consideration, time and patience over the week.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13317             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13318             I do have a question for you because I neglected to ask you the question I have asked all applicants when you appeared before us on Tuesday, and that is of course, in your opinion, how many new commercial FM stations can this market sustain, which is the first part of the question, and the second part is if we were to licence more than one, which would have the least impact and which would have the most on your business plan?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13319             MR. COWIE:  Thank you very much for asking the question.  I was going to ask you to ask the question if you hadn't.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13320             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You could have just given me the answer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13321             MR. COWIE:  You heard CTV CHUM describe Kelowna as a tale of two cities, one young and one old.  We agree with this assessment of the market.  We would all augment it by highlighting the growth prospects in our answer.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13322             B.C. Stats, the definitive source of population projections for the province, estimated in August of this year that over 55 per cent of the radio market will be over 45 years of age by 2015, the final year of any license that is issued after this hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13323             This represents 96,000 people, more than the entire population of the cities of Vernon, a city of 58,000 and Penticton, a city of 45,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13324             As you have heard from every applicant, this is a market that is undergoing strong economic growth and there has not been a new radio station licensed in this market in eight years.  So, we believe the market can support two new commercial licences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13325             Of all the applicants before you, CTV CHUM would have the least impact on our business plan.  They are targeting the opposite end of the demographic spectrum, while the median age of our audience is 58.  Based on our extensive review of the market, the two demos that are the most underserved are 55‑plus and the youth demos.  Rather than creating a situation where either of the consumers lose choice or the market is disrupted, why not choose to licence applicants with a clear plan to serve this market from the outset?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13326             With that, Madam Chair, we thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13327             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you have given me obviously the one that would have the least impact?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13328             MR. COWIE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13329             THE CHAIRPERSON:  What about the one that would have the most?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13330             MR. COWIE:  We think that any of the other applications that are targeting the higher demo would be harmful to us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13331             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13332             I believe legal counsel has a couple of questions for you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13333             MS LEHOUX:  Just one question.  In the revised CCD calculations you have identified two initiatives that are not eligible any more under our 2006 radio policy.  They are Star Maker and CCIM.  Will you redirect the funds and, if so, to what?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13334             MR. COWIE:  To FACTOR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13335             MS LEHOUX:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13336             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13337             Madam Sectary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13338             THE SECRETARY:  We would now ask Sun Country Cablevision to come up to the presentation table.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13339             For the record please restate your name, and you will have ten minutes for your presentation.


REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 13340             MR. GRAY:  Thank you very much.  My name is Walter Gray.  We are from Sun Country Cablevision, applicants for Classic Rock 96.3 in Kelowna.  We will be quite brief.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13341             Joining me is our President of our company, Ted Pound and one of the founding Directors, and our Managing Director, Michael Hall and I am also a Director.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13342             First of all, Madam Chairman Cugini and to the Commissioners Williams and Morin, we want to thank you so very much for coming to Kelowna.  We opened with those remarks back at the beginning of the hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13343             As a former Chamber of Commerce President and as the former Mayor, we are always very satisfied when our community is recognized.  I think when Kelowna's business is being discussed, it should be done in Kelowna and we want to thank the Commission and the staff for recognizing that.  It is much appreciated and I am sure the other applicants feel the same way.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13344             We at Sun Country are very grateful for the attention that the Commission has given to our application.  Our observation is that it has been very, very thorough.  You do have a difficult job ahead of you, but I have every confidence that the community will be served well by your decision after you have digested everything that you have heard this past week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13345             We want to extend our thanks to the many, many dozens of written interventions we had on our behalf.  It was quite rewarding and certainly worth all the time and effort and money that has gone into the preparation of our application to get that kind of support.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13346             I would like to particularly point out one letter and that was the letter from NARIA, the National Aboriginal Recording Industry Association who, in their letter ‑‑ and I don't know whether you had time to read all of the letters ‑‑ but in their letter they stated that if we were licensed, our CCD commitment to helping them would be much appreciated.  But they did go on to say that we are the first radio company or radio applicant in Canada to offer such support through the CCD.  So, we think it would send a great signal if we had that opportunity to be funding them on a seven‑year basis.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13347             I also want to thank the two intervenors that appeared here live and in person, David Langton and also Curtis Tulman of the Cruzeros.  We appreciated their support and I must advise you that they came to us, we did not go to them.  So that gives us a special thrill.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13348             The Canadian Radio and Television Commission process has given us, at Sun Country, a fair and good hearing.  We are very proud of our federal regulated CRTC for its professionalism.  I echo that and I thank you so much for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13349             Throughout the hearing, and not just when we were presenting as the second applicants back on Tuesday morning when we were all much fresher than we are now, it has been coming through I think quite loud and clear that a locally owned and operated radio station will add very much needed diversity in this market and I think the Commission should recognize, as we certainly are aware, having been long‑time residents in the broadcasting business here in Kelowna, there are two very good, but very large, radio companies operating the current radio station, Pattison and Astral.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13350             I have so much respect for them, but a locally owned and operated radio station would complement what we already have, I believe, very, very well.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13351             The only other thing I would ask the Commission, because of the 11 applicants, it is either seven or eight, I would have to look at the list, are all applying for the same frequency of 96.3.  Nobody at this hearing has yet thought to put in their dibs, but if we are successful, we would very much appreciate getting that fourth adjacency frequency, 96.3.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13352             I think that sums up our comments, unless one of my colleagues has anything further to add.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13353             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Gray, thank you very.  You can bet that now that the hearing has taken three days instead of four, we will be enjoying some time tomorrow in this area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13354             Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13355             MR. GRAY:  I will talk to the weather office for you as soon as we are out of here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13356             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13357             MR. GRAY:  Thank you so very, very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13358             THE SECRETARY:  We would now ask Vista Radio Limited to come up to the presentation table.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE


LISTNUM 1 \l 13359             MS MICALLEF:  Thank you, Margot Micallef, Chair and CEO of Vista Broadcast Group and Vista Radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13360             I wanted to just reiterate that we have provided fulsome replies to the written interventions that were filed in advance of this hearing, and the only thing we would add is just to reconfirm those interventions or replies, rather, and the fact that you have heard from a number of the applicants in support of at least one more FM station here in Kelowna, the robustness of the economy here and the eagerness of the citizens of this city to have another radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13361             I also would like to thank our 1,000 plus supporters who took the time to write in support of our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13362             Finally, to thank you, Madam Chair and Commissioners and staff for a very efficient hearing.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13363             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms Micallef, thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13364             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13365             THE SECRETARY:  This completes consideration of items 1 to 11 on the agenda.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13366             Thank you, Madam Chair.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13367             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  We will now break for lunch.  We will come back at 2:00 o'clock.  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1230 / Suspension à 1230

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1400 / Reprise à 1400

LISTNUM 1 \l 13368             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with item 12 on the agenda, which is an application by Community Media Education Society for a licence to operate a community programming undertaking in the service area of the regional Class 1 broadcasting distribution undertaking of TELUS Inc., which serves British Columbia and Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13369             The applicant proposes to provide community programming in Victoria, Nanaimo, Prince George, Terrace, Vernon, Penticton and Vancouver, including Lower Mainland and Fraser Valley, British Columbia, and in Calgary, Edmonton, Fort McMurray, Red Deer, Grande Prairie, Lethbridge and Medicine Hat, Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13370             Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Brock MacLachlan.  Please introduce your colleagues, and you will have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION


LISTNUM 1 \l 13371             MR. MacLACHLAN:  Thank you.  Good afternoon, Madam Chair and members of the Commission.  We are pleased to be here in Kelowna to present our licence application.  We are especially thankful to the Commission to hear us in person.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13372             My name is Brock MacLachlan.  I have been involved in community TV as a volunteer for over ten years and served as a Director of CMES and Independent Community Television Cooperative, ICTV over the past six years.  I have been studying Political Science and Communications at the graduate level at Simon Fraser University.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13373             Lynda Leonard is a producor and editor of community TV programming, as well as corporate and educational video.  She has been volunteering with community television since the 1980s, starting with Calgary Cable and then Rogers Cable and ICTV in Vancouver.  She is also a Director of CMES.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13374             Richard Ward has been in community TV for over 30 years since finishing graduate studies at UBC, first with West Kooteney Television and then in Vancouver with Vancouver Cablevision, Premier, Rogers and Shaw.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13375             He was a network control technician at Rogers for seven years.  Recently he was the Treasurer at Video Inn, where he is a founding member.  He is also a Director of CMES.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13376             One of the main building blocks of a liberal democracy towards its social, cultural and intellectual development is that there be free and open public spaces in which new ideas, viewpoints and challenging perspectives are created, nurtured and entered into public discourse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13377             We view the community television channel as an essential component of this public space, which is the only television broadcast medium that serves the interests and needs of Canada's heterogeneous and diverse mosaic of communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13378             The idea of self‑expression, of free and open television access, is one of Canada's most successful exports.  Opportunity for public discussion is a fundamental issue around the world.  In modern economies free speech has an economic meaning.  It must be cost free as well as uncoerced.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13379             Thirty years ago, when the community channel was created, it was mandated by the CRTC to cover local events, seek out alternative views, provide balance on public issues and provide open access to local broadcasting for participation by any member of the local community.  It also served as a middle ground for Canada's television system, less experimental than the film schools and providing more in‑depth coverage of local events and issues than is seen in commercial broadcasting.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13380             Public access for all community members was the key.  TV stations used to require students with communication diplomas to get experience doing community TV before they were considered for permanent commercial employment.  Without a community TV demo reel most graduates struggled to find work in their chosen field.  This process provided an important step for many individuals pursuing careers in commercial media, as well as a welcome place for volunteers wishing to use the community channel for their own ideas while learning practical media skills.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13381             Deregulating the community channel had one major flaw.  It left the control, administration and programming decisions of the community channel solely with the BDU licensee.  Unfortunately, for those members of the community whose needs and interests were of secondary importance to the BDUs, there has been the irresistible tendency to use the BDU community channel for its own commercial and promotional purposes.  Licensing the community channel independently is a good response, a powerful response, and a necessary response.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13382             Michael McCabe of the Canadian Association of Broadcasters pointed out that the community channel was the chief social obligation of the cable companies, their duty for bringing in basic American channels without payment.  That early advantage let cable companies grow into dominant players as Canada's media ownership has become narrowly concentrated.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13383             By contrast, ICTV, Independent Community Television Cooperative, has put public access first and foremost.  For several years it has delivered shows to Novus Communications and Shaw Cable without paid staff or core funding.  ICTV, a volunteer group, exists to provide top quality shows (11 international awards) for a variety of distribution systems.  Because it has community support and dedicated members, ICTV has managed to keep producing since 1997.  CMES hopes that ICTV will be able to coordinate access programming on the TELUS system in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13384             Unregulated industries cannot justify social spending and that is where governments must provide balance.  The idea of community television is well respected internationally.  In association with ICTV, CMES has hosted delegations from Brazil, Japan and South Korea, who know Canada as the birth place of the community channel.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13385             Independent community TV is a significant resource for enhancing Canadian identity.  Having participatory television channels everywhere in Canada, accessible channels where citizens have an independent society with directors they can elect, will make a fundamental difference to our involvement in democracy, Canada's television industry is full of people who started in community TV.  The next generation should have that same opportunity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13386             Thank you.  I will turn it over to Lynda.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13387             MS LEONARD:  Thank you.  We would now like to show you a compilation we have done of community programming, past and present.  We are fortunate enough to have an archive of over 25 years of community television programming mainly from Vancouver East, and I have also included some segments from that archive as well.

‑‑‑ Video presentation / présentation vidéo


LISTNUM 1 \l 13388             MR. WARD:  I am Richard Ward.  Distribution will be the main service CMES provides.  We have available a selection of digital servers which are marketed for less than $10,000 to PEG stations in the United States and we now have a strong Canadian dollar.  PEG is the acronym for public, educational and government television.  We will include a switcher in the system so that we can do instant substitutions or live phone shows with a five second delay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13389             Our initial staffing cost is for two playback operators to load shows into the server and handle any problems during the broadcast week.  Funding to handle distribution at this initial level will determine our launch date.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13390             We plan to deliver a fully packaged channel so that TELUS will be able to plug it into their head end and play our shows as easily as they can play global, CityTV or the CBC.  We support internet distribution and video on demand, but we also believe that British Columbians and Albertans should have a voice on a continuously programmed channel, a place where someone can relax and watch TV without having to search for each show individually, programs viewers can find easily while scanning the menu or clicking through the channels.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13391             We believe it is vital for the community channel to retain its place on the basic service between channels 2 and 13, and for participatory public access to be the main feature of the community channel.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13392             Once our channel starts broadcasting we can reach every TELUS viewer, but we will need a city to have at least 6,000 subscribers before we can hire an outreach coordinator and give her the necessary equipment to train volunteers and help them with their productions.  We are budgeting on the assumption that we will receive 2 per cent of subscriber revenues even in communities with fewer than 6,000 subscribers.  We hope that TELUS television service will be popular enough with urban viewers so that we will be able to hire and equip an outreach coordinator in any town or village with 2,000 subscribers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13393             With the geography of the TELUS licence, we believe the most effective way to preserve the local nature of the community channel is to focus on local production.  We have to get equipment and training as close as possible to every TELUS subscriber who wants to participate.  We have to guarantee public access to those people and groups who can't afford broadcast‑quality cameras.  We can't assume that everyone who does buy his own equipment will know how to get full advantage from its capabilities, so training and mentoring are important.  The idea of community is that people will work together in a social relationship, not just a virtual one.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13394             The outreach coordinator will actively recruit volunteers to report issues and events in each neighbourhood.  Each neighbourhood office will produce two core shows:  A news magazine show and an interview show.  That way each community will have local coverage of events and personalities while other towns get an introduction to their neighbours.  Of course community programs are as diverse as the imagination of the volunteers and individual productions will be encouraged, preferably after a period of training on one or both of the core shows.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13395             These two familiar formats mean that shows get done on a regular schedule, they use volunteer time efficiently.  Interview guests and people appearing in news items represent the primary content of each neighbourhood office.  Volunteers may use the channel for their personal visions but only after they have demonstrated competence handling traditional industry formats.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13396             Each community will have major events that deserve extraordinary coverage.  Doing shows on a regular basis encourages volunteers to practice their skills.  That way, when the opportunity comes to do exceptional work, talent can rise to the occasion.  Community channel quality means that Canada's broadcasting system continues to function as a single system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13397             Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13398             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. MacLachlan, Mr. Ward and Ms Leonard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13399             I am going to ask Commissioner Williams to lead the questioning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13400             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good afternoon.  Welcome to the hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13401             I would like to spend a little time learning more about CMES and your aspirations.  Could you please provide us some more information about CMES, maybe talk in terms of its history, how many active members does it have now, where your current members live, are they only in Vancouver or are they in other parts of B.C. or Alberta, and how much community programming is being produced by CMES and where is CMES programming being broadcast at this time?  So basically just a snapshot of your organization as it exists today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13402             Start with the history and the members.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13403             MR. WARD:  CMES was incorporated in 1997 when the Vancouver East Neighbourhood Office kept going after Rogers shut down the 11 neighbourhood offices in Vancouver.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13404             At the time, each neighbourhood office had about 60 to 120 volunteers.  Kitsilano I believe where I was had 110.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13405             Rogers gave the Van East office $10,000, plus the term of the lease, plus the equipment.  The term of the lease was another 14 months.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13406             But it had to be incorporated into a society.  That society was CMES, Community Media Education Society.  So, 1997 we were incorporated.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13407             We have 200 members, but I would say about 30 are active.  Those members are in B.C. and Alberta, but primarily in the Lower Mainland.  The ones outside of the Lower Mainland would be more in the nature of supporting members.  We have an alliance with people from NUTV in Calgary and people have come to Vancouver and then moved, for example, to Osoyoos.  One of our 20‑year veterans is living in Osoyoos now, but we basically program in the Vancouver area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13408             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So the members outside of Vancouver would not be actively involved in CMES's activities then?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13409             MR. WARD:  They are not now, but should we get this licence, they would become quickly very active.  They are eager for this.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13410             We have support throughout B.C. and Alberta.  The Mayor of the city of Prince George passed a motion supporting our application.  There is a lot of excitement about this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13411             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  If we can talk about the programming, how much is produced and where is it being produced at this time?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13412             MS LEONARD:  Right now we have about 12 different shows airing right now in Vancouver.  A lot of the producers have their own equipment, but that means other producers unfortunately don't have as much access because we don't have enough of a budget right now to purchase the equipment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13413             So, there is a lot of interest, as Richard was saying.  We get e‑mails just about every other day from people wanting to volunteer, and we also get e‑mails from the States from people wanting to air their programming, but I think maybe they are not quite sure that community television started in Canada primarily to keep Canadian programming going in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13414             So, right now we have four hours a week on Shaw TV in Vancouver, and also we have some air time on Novus Cable as well.  The programming, I think NUTV in Calgary has three half hour airings a week on Shaw in Calgary, but the community channels in Vancouver and Calgary are very different right now.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13415             There is very different programming that the cable company has produced itself in Vancouver, but some of it does show in Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13416             I think the reason maybe why they are doing their type of programming is precisely because of what we are doing in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13417             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  On page 2 of your application you state that CMES proposes to serve nine communities in British Columbia, and you list the following seven locations:  Vancouver, Victoria, Nanaimo, Prince George, Terrace, Vernon, Penticton.  On page 10 you refer to Nelson.  Which is the other community that has been omitted from this?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13418             MR. WARD:  At the moment we are likely to ‑‑ we had written this list based on the TELUS application, the original TELUS application of the communities that they would serve.  So, I simply transferred this from the TELUS application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13419             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So it is eight communities, then, not nine?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13420             MR. WARD:  I may have a typo in here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13421             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  It is not a big deal.  If that is the case we will just note it.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13422             MR. WARD:  In fact, what we do expect to serve now is Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton because those are the communities where the service is.  We would serve all of these communities as quickly as we can, and more as the subscribers are available.  But these would be the communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13423             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So we would add at least Edmonton and Calgary to this list then?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13424             MR. WARD:  Please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13425             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How did you choose these communities?  I guess you kind of just answered that in that wherever TELUS goes that where you plan to go.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13426             MR. WARD:  We have to.  That is simply the technology of the distribution.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13427             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  TELUS's service area includes Kamloops and Kelowna.  They have not applied for Kamloops and Kelowna?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13428             MS LEONARD:  I did ask TELUS ‑‑ actually, we had some interest from Canmore and Banff area.  Some people had asked if we would be covered in that area, and I had written to TELUS, but they said not at this time.  So, Kamloops and Kelowna, I also asked about that, but I didn't receive an answer about those two areas.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13429             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  CMES has an experienced track record of producing community programming in Vancouver.  How do you propose to expand your activities and your presence to provide community programming to such a wide range of locations both in Alberta and British Columbia?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13430             MR. WARD:  What we find is that the bottleneck in this is not getting the programs.  The bottleneck is the administration and the distribution.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13431             People are eager to produce programs.  What you want to do on the production end is you want to improve the quality of the programs.  You get into a lot of difficulties with a first come, first serve.  There are concerns over the responsibility of the person producing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13432             So, how would we get the programs from these smaller communities?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13433             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13434             MR. WARD:  The first thing is that people who are there already, once they know we have the licence, there is an excellent chance that they will be seeking us out and we will certainly be publicizing the availability of this in those communities.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13435             The second thing that we will do is when we hire outreach coordinators, which we are planning to do pretty much on a one day a week basis ‑‑ we are used to working with very small amounts of money and placing these amounts of money in very small chunks.  If there was, for example, demand from Kamloops, there would be an outreach coordinator in Kamloops and the equipment would go there probably from a pool in that area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13436             So, we would take the programming from the people there, but also we would do what we could to support them and lighting equipment, switchers, things like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13437             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That's Kamloops.  Now let's say the next day there is something in Fort McMurray.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13438             MR. WARD:  The next day there is something in Fort McMurray.  Fort McMurray is closer to Edmonton.  Now we get someone from Edmonton there, but we would also, from a lot of these places, take something that they would produce completely because, again, a lot of people do have the equipment, but we are trying to get better equipment from there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13439             But Fort McMurray actually is on our list for having someone there as the number of subscribers justifies.  That is one of the first places we would go.  We tried to place it geographically to keep the travel costs under control.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13440             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So you will have a person in most of these centres employed for ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13441             MR. WARD:  A part‑time job.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13442             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  A part‑time job, effectively one day a week I think you said.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13443             MR. WARD:  Effectively one day a week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13444             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  And there will be pools of equipment on a regional basis that could be transported to wherever they were needed?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13445             MR. WARD:  We think pretty quickly we could have a camera, an edit bay, a lighting kit and a vehicle everywhere we have an outreach coordinator.  We are optimistic that the TELUS service will be in demand and that the revenues will be such that we can do this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13446             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  In your submission you state that CMES is making this application in association with the society to be incorporated in Alberta because you want to have a regional facet complementing a local focus, the main body of programming.  If this application is approved CMES would be the licensee of this community programming undertaking.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13447             What would be the relationship of the Alberta society's involvement with the day‑to‑day operations of the station?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13448             MR. WARD:  The Alberta society would act as a peer society.  The Alberta society would be a member of CMES.  I don't believe CMES is restricted geographically from having members in Alberta.  We have the relationship with NUTV right now.  And NUTV, while it is connected with the university, would not itself be the society.  Members of NUTV, including people on their Board of Directors, are quite eager to be involved in this.  So, it would be not a new from the ground society.  It would be people who have been involved with community television for many years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13449             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Just for a second, just so I don't lose this point, what is NUTV?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13450             MS LEONARD:  It is the university television from the University of Calgary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13451             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And they already produce?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13452             MS LEONARD:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13453             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And they are part of the Alberta society?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13454             MS LEONARD:  They would be, yes.  They are a little bit different.  They have student members, but they also have members from the public at large, but mainly from the students.  But they have a Board of Directors who have expressed interest.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13455             THE CHAIRPERSON:  What is their mandate right now?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13456             MS LEONARD:  For NUTV?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13457             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13458             MS LEONARD:  To provide access for university students to video production and also from the public at large.  But they do ‑‑ because they are funded by the student levy, most of their membership has to come from the university.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13459             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is this programming produced by the students and available through the university's network?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13460             MS LEONARD:  Yes, and it does also air on ‑‑ it doesn't air on the cable company's community channel.  It airs on the multi‑cultural channel, which is much further up the dial than the community channel in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13461             If we were airing their program, for example it would be on our lower channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13462             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Sorry to interrupt.  I just didn't want to lose the point on NUTV.  Go ahead, Commissioner.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13463             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Members from all these distant communities, you are going to have members and volunteers and coordinators in all these different communities that are distant from your core.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13464             How will they have a meaningful input and not just into the programming but into the management and operations of CMES or will they have any?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13465             MR. WARD:  Here we do expect to use the internet quite a bit.  We are hoping that we can get the programs through a file transfer protocol rather than having them actually trucked physically.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13466             We will have meetings and a lot of it will happen through e‑mail, keeping people involved that way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13467             We have meetings about every two months right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13468             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Will they have board membership, voting power, hiring, firing, commissioning power?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13469             MR. WARD:  Yes.  Indeed that is the whole point of this.  The whole point of this is to have as diverse a group of people as we can, electing the directors from as many places as we can.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13470             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Would there be regional or provincial representation percentages?  Could all the members end up being from Vancouver or would you have representatives from each of the communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13471             MR. WARD:  We hadn't actually thought that far but we certainly should have regional emphasis.  I had assumed ‑‑ I never assumed that they would all be from Vancouver.  I just couldn't see it working out that way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13472             What we tried to do to prevent the risk of some group from taking this over is that our nine directors, three are elected on a three‑year term each year.  So the most any group can do to try to take over the organization is to elect three directors in any one year a minority.  We hope at that point people will see that the system is at risk.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13473             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Or you have got nine communities, you could have one from each community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13474             MR. WARD:  We could do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13475             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That is a possibility as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13476             MR. WARD:  This is something that the board would handle, but it is certainly the way that we have been thinking.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13477             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Is your proposed service severable?  Would you proceed if CMES was only authorized to proceed service to some of the proposed locations, for example, only Vancouver or only the locations in British Columbia for example and, if so, which of these locations would you choose?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13478             MS LEONARD:  I think the reason we sort of did the big picture was we don't want to see the community channel fragmented so much between providers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13479             I can give you an example in the States, Manhattan Neighbourhood Network has four access channels, three PEG system, public, education and government, and also a youth channel.  Those channels are funded at arm's length from the cable companies and they also air on all of the providers.  So, that is why we feel that is the best way to keep the community together is to avoid this fragmentation between the providers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13480             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  If we license you only for some of what you have applied for, and I am suggesting in this example perhaps just the British Columbia locations, would this be enough to make your proposal go forward?  Do you need it all or can you get by with part of it I guess is the question?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13481             MS LEONARD:  I think we might ask another group in Alberta to apply for the Alberta section.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13482             Just from what is happening in Quebec right now, a lot of the members of the federation there are applying to have their channels carried on all the different providers so that there will be the continuity there.  So I guess we just want to see the same out here as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13483             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  If we were only to licence you or if in this example, the British Columbia communities, would you then withdraw your application and say it is not workable?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13484             MR. WARD:  No.  I am starting to understand where you were going with your question about the Alberta society.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13485             No.  We would then hope that a society with goals similar to ours and a society for the directors are elected from the membership.  It would get a comparable licence in Alberta.  Yes, we could do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13486             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So your plan is workable either as presented or in a smaller version?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13487             MR. WARD:  It is, but on a personal note, I have just moved to Calgary.  I would probably then be part of a society there and not the one in Vancouver.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13488             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Let's spend a bit of time on the viability of your business plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13489             Are the financial projections included in the application still valid even though they were established prior to 2005?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13490             MR. WARD:  Yes, very much so.  Volunteer production, if anything, has grown since that time.  Just having the access is a great motivator for people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13491             And the very fact that we have reached this point, that we are having our licence considered carries considerable weight.  There were, I think, 1700 letters on the Diversity of Voices hearing that broadly supported what we are doing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13492             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Have you received additional information from TELUS or other sources that would impact or change the projections that you presented in your application?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13493             MR. WARD:  No.  We understand that sales have not been as rapid as was originally hoped, but we had planned in the first year anyway that we would get support federally, most likely from the Canada Council, which did support ICTV earlier and shows continuing interest, and I know something about that from my involvement in the arts community.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13494             Van City continues to show a great deal of interest in how we are progressing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13495             So I would think for the first year anyway we would get established with the TELUS contribution being a minor factor in our financial plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13496             In later years, we expect it to grow, but of course these things always depend on sales.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13497             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How many communities have reached your stated threshold of 6,000 subscribers to begin service and what time line do you foresee in offering service to each of these communities?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13498             MR. WARD:  Ann Mainville‑Neeson is here to represent TELUS, and she would know that.  We don't have that information right now.  We don't know how the TELUS sales are progressing.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13499             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  In your year two projections, assume 15,000 subscribers and four communities with at least 2,000 in each.  This statement would appear to contradict another of your assumptions of beginning service in a community once TELUS has reached 6,000 subscribers in a community.  Could you please provide clarification as to how we should interpret these assumptions?  Is it 15,000 and 2,000 or is it 6,000 in each?  We just need to be able to understand that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13500             MR. WARD:  The reference to the 2,000 subscribers follows the 6,000 subscribers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13501             We need 6,000 to start somewhere.  We are assuming it would be Calgary, Vancouver, Edmonton, the biggest municipalities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13502             Once we get that, we would like to use the revenues from the larger municipalities to subsidize the smaller municipalities.  I believe this is being done in Saskatchewan as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13503             What this does is it encourages people in smaller communities and also there is a lot of turnover, you get people leaving the small towns to go to the cities, you get people leaving the cities to go back.  To know what is happening one place and another it seemed to me to be part of the appeal of this regional licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13504             So, the 2,000 subscribers doesn't really pay the way, but the 6,000 subscribers is a little more than is needed.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13505             MR. MacLACHLAN:  On the matter of funding, one of the issues with regard to production of television at the community level has been lack of funding.  This is kind of a double edged sword against our operation is that I have personally been involved in looking for funding from various organizations, whether municipal groups, one is the Vancouver Foundation, and always the barrier where we were coming up against is that we lacked core funding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13506             I mean, this is a classic catch 22.  You have to have funding in order to get funding.  The way I understand, in the event that we get the licence, that we suddenly have core funding and then we have that financial base or even the groups that we are representing have that financial base that they can build on and they can use that money, that core funding to demonstrate that they have other financial supportive base to apply for outside funding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13507             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Let's follow up on the whole funding area, then.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13508             Do you have sufficient resources to implement your proposal, respect the regulatory obligations and provide an adequate level of service to the communities in the TELUS service area under the projections set forward in your slower revenue growth model?  I think it was table number 2.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13509             Can you also please provide additional details as to the sources of government and non‑government funding and whether in fact these funds have been secured, and is the disbursement of government or non‑government funding conditional upon certain performance base objectives in either revenue or even agreements with TELUS?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13510             I am going to stop it there because it's starting to be a long question.  But basically how is your sources of money?  Do you have enough of it and is any of it conditional?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13511             MR. WARD:  Well, our sources of money up to this point are our personal revenues which are moderate but ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13512             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Personal donations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13513             MR. WARD:  No, I mean what I actually have from selling my apartment in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13514             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes, that is a donation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13515             MR. WARD:  That would be a donation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13516             What we have here is we have a projection of what TELUS ‑‑ my figures simply follow the original TELUS application.  If TELUS sales projection follows what they applied for in the licence, a licence application which was successful, then I have every reason to think that our application, our financial performance will be successful.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13517             What Brock said about the core funding is absolutely true.  We have nothing secured right now, but we have a lot of encouragement from the Vancouver Foundation, which is the largest foundation in Canada, from Van City, which has a strong track record of supporting these kinds of activities, and Canada Council, and those would be the main ones, but there are a lot of foundations that we can look to once we get past this step.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13518             But this is absolutely key for us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13519             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So you can't even consider I guess these other sources of fundings until you get past the first step, and so you don't know whether they are conditional or not then?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13520             MR. WARD:  We assume that they are conditional on the licence and receiving the 2 per cent levy, and without that, we don't think that they are forthcoming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13521             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You have indicated that you would avoid sponsorship sales as potential sources of revenues.  What impact could this have on your ability to execute the business plan and maintain a high standard of service to your viewers?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13522             MR. WARD:  Well, there are two things.  First of all, we think it makes our business plan more stable since we think the revenues from subscriptions to the television service will be more stable than advertising revenue.  But more importantly, we see this as a public service, and for us to compete with commercial stations which are entirely dependent on advertising seems to me to be unfair to the commercial stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13523             We can offer a higher quality programming because we have the levy, and we can take advertising revenue, where they are dependent entirely on the advertising revenue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13524             So, we really think it is fairer under the Broadcasting Act for the community channel not to have advertising at all.  I realize the policy goes the other way right now, but I myself feel strongly that no advertising is much better for a public service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13525             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How do you plan on providing community programming that reflects the interests and the needs of 16 locations spread across two provinces?  How is it locally reflective?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13526             MS LEONARD:  I think we have the situation right now where, because of consolidations, some of the areas that had their own community channels no longer have those channels.  Their council meetings are not being covered.  They are told if they want to have an event covered, they have to book quite far in advance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13527             I can see that we would only improve that situation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13528             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Can you give me some examples?  Just pick a couple of communities, say Fort McMurray and Vancouver, how are you going to reconcile their ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13529             MS LEONARD:  They actually have some similar issues about housing right now, and even Kelowna, affordable housing.  So, those issues are similar.  We can learn from each community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13530             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You are talking about the west end of Vancouver and then the southeast corner of Fort McMurray in the next year or so?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13531             MS LEONARD:  Yes.  I think we will find people ‑‑ actually there are a lot of people who used to work for community channels who live in these places now and they are interested in getting involved again, and they have a personal connection to the issues and events going on and they are prepared to help in any way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13532             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13533             In your application you state that CMES will devote at least 60 per cent of its programming to local community programming.  The application form notes that local community programming is defined by programs that are produced by the licensee in the licensed area or by members of the community from the licensed area.  In the case of cable operators who applied for regional licences the Commission has retained the original licence area, the individual communities for the purposes of this definition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13534             Using this approach, 60 per cent of the programming broadcast in Terrace would be local programming produced in Terrace, 60 per cent of the programming in Fort McMurray would be produced in Fort McMurray.  Judging from your proposed programming block schedule in Appendix 4B, it appears this is not the approach that you are taking to definition of local community programming.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13535             Does your definition of the licence service area mean all of the communities CMES is licensed for; in other words, programming produced in Terrace could be considered local programming in Fort McMurray, and does this undermine the objective of local programming requirements which are essentially to ensure that a community is reflected through programming as produced in that community about that community by community members?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13536             MR. WARD:  I think we are already seeing a lot of centralization of production and I believe we can reverse it.  What we are not seeing right now is any programming from Fort McMurray about the issues there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13537             The way I am envisioning it is, as I said earlier, that CMES is a distribution service and the programs from Fort McMurray will be made there and we should be able to put staff there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13538             But will 60 per cent of all of the programming in Fort McMurray be made in Fort McMurray?  I would have to say no, that is not the strategy that we are proposing.  We are proposing that we originate programming from all the communities within the licensed area and then show it to the neighbours.  So, you are right, we are not following that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13539             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So your definition of licensed service area would mean all of the communities in a block that have a licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13540             MR. WARD:  That is our definition.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13541             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  In your application you state that CMES would access at least 30 per cent of its programs produced by individuals or groups within the community served by the undertaking and make available a minimum of 50 per cent of the programming aired during each broadcast week to the broadcasting of access programs.  Would 30 per cent of the programming in a given community be produced by residents or groups residing or living in that community or are you using a broader definition that any CMES produced content, regardless of what was produced, would qualify as access programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13542             MR. WARD:  The broader definition, but I would hope that we would exceed that figure by a wide margin.  We are hoping to have no centralized programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13543             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How will an organization that is based in Vancouver and Calgary provide programming that reflects the interests and needs of the communities spread throughout the more remote parts of Alberta and B.C.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13544             MR. WARD:  By receiving it from those communities and distributing it back to them without adding any more editorial comment than the outreach coordinator who ideally lives close to those communities would introduce.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13545             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Earlier today, a few minutes ago in fact, we talked about your application where you have outlined how CMES with a limited budget will rely on your outreach coordinators or a coordinator in each of the communities, either a part‑time paid staff working one day a week and/or volunteers in the various communities to recruit trained volunteers on how to produce community programming, primarily former community program volunteers, I would assume, or retired television persons.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13546             What would you provide to these communities that a profit organization perhaps with more financial resources and full‑time staff won't?  What makes you better than that?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13547             MR. WARD:  I suppose it is the experience.  I volunteered through four different cable companies in Vancouver.  I have appeared in front of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage and the Senate Transportation Committee, and I have spent much of my life talking about these issues, and there are a lot of things that money really doesn't solve.  If you give people more expensive equipment, it doesn't mean that they have the freedom to use it.  We are seeing that in Vancouver right now, that they are very well funded, but the volunteers have almost no autonomy.  They don't get to choose what issues they discuss.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13548             What we are offering here is freedom to say what is important to you and our fear is that as the money becomes more generous, our experience is that as the money becomes more generous, the temptation to take that freedom away is irresistible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13549             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That has been a good conversation.  I think we have got a pretty good understanding of what you hope to achieve with this application, should you be successful.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13550             I guess the only part that I am having a little difficulty understanding is to me community television, I think it was originally called community access television, was that the community could then have access to a channel to produce whatever programming that the community determined was of interest and important.  Now, if the decisions are being made in a large centre somewhere for a bunch of smaller communities scattered throughout a couple provinces, I am having a little trouble reconciling that aspect of community access television.  So if you have any final comments to make to help me on that, that will be my last question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13551             MR. WARD:  Let me be more emphatic.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13552             We have gone to considerable effort, right from our original incorporation to create first of all a society that no one can buy because every commercial television licence that has ever been awarded in Canada sounds just like a community channel in its original application, and a year down the road there is a change and something is allowed to be different and maybe you can bring in American football, I think that was a first one, and on they go.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13553             So, we have tried from a structural standpoint to guard against that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13554             We have tried to do that with the way our directors are elected.  We tried to do that by keeping in touch with people who, as they move to the smaller places, we keep them up to date on everything that is happening.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13555             I honestly don't think Vancouver or Calgary or Edmonton would be central.  I think, if anything, we are more likely to see Terrace and Prince George and Medicine Hat and if you get one Director from each of the large cities ‑‑ I think the enthusiasm is going to come from the smaller places.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13556             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, thank you very much, Mr. Ward.  It has been a good interrogatory.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13557             Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13558             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13559             I do have some follow up questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13560             Mr. Ward, you said that currently you have 200 members but 30 are active.  Why aren't the other 170 members active?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13561             MR. WARD:  The other 170 members who have joined over the period of the organization have gone in some cases ‑‑ we have one in Japan who keeps his membership up, we have one in Brazil.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13562             Now, originally in the community television system in Vancouver, we had over 1,000 people who were active.  The 200 members who remained eager enough to join CMES were involved in shows, I think at the time we had six shows, and Rogers, while it still held the licence, cut two of those and then Shaw, when it took over the licence, cut them one after the other, until by 2002 our last show was cut, and we continued to make the shows, we put them into the public library on tape for people to see, we continued to make East Side Story, but we were discouraged.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13563             We were just about ready to fold when 2002‑61 came up.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13564             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So, these 170 producers, even though they aren't currently producing for community television, they continue to remain members of your society?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13565             MR. WARD:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13566             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13567             Later you said that you have 12 shows airing in Vancouver produced by producers who have their own equipment, four hours per week are aired in Vancouver on Shaw.  Are these made up of those 12 shows, those four hours?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13568             MS LEONARD:  Yes, they are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13569             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You then said three 30‑minute shows on Shaw in Calgary.  Where do those shows come from?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13570             MS LEONARD:  That is just the NUTV.  I guess I would consider their show to be a public access show.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13571             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But they are members of your society?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13572             MS LEONARD:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13573             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Then you said there were shows airing on Novus?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13574             MS LEONARD:  Yes, some shows airing on Novus.  Well, Novus had a different approach where people had to submit their shows and if they suited the demographic of where Novus aired, the shows would be accepted.  So, this is a problem that has kind of been chronic in the last couple of years.  Even though there has been advertising for volunteers and program and ideas by the providers, they are not actually providing the access.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13575             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But let me ask you this.  Why is that a problem?  If it is Novus who are airing the shows, should it not be their responsibility to determine whether or not the shows are appropriate for their audience?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13576             MS LEONARD:  That is not public access.  It is very commercial.  The demographic of Novus' area is Yaletown, it is very wealthy, or deemed a wealthy area, new area in Vancouver.  So, that is not what public access is around the world.  Public access is air time, and you give the show and its played.  The open channels in Europe play just about any programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13577             I know some access programs in the States air all over the world on open channels.  So, community channel and public access now are two different things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13578             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you don't believe there should be any filtering?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13579             MS LEONARD:  There should be filters that the show should follow the CRTC programming guidelines as was done for years.  But as far as suiting a particular demographic, that is not community television.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13580             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13581             When Commissioner Williams asked you about the expansion of your activities should this licence be approved, you would be now moving from two or three communities to as many as 16, you said that there is an excellent chance that producers in all of these communities will seek you out and show their enthusiasm for wanting to produce television.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13582             My question is this:  Would it have not been more prudent on your part to do the research before filing the application and identifying the potential for producers from these communities, identify the equipment that they might have, identify the resources that they have in order to produce the programming?  Because perhaps you are creating far too great an expectation not only for the communities, but for yourselves, and what if you just can't meet that expectation because you couldn't find the people?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13583             MR. WARD:  I don't think the expectation is understated.  The reason I don't is people who are constantly getting in touch with us saying what can we do to get the community channel back again?  That research comes to us.  That is spontaneous.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13584             When you call the hearing on Diversity of Voices you get a lot of letters, maybe even a predominance of letters saying we want community television.  When you do the hearing on deregulation, I think you are going to find a preponderance of your letters will be a concern that the community channel may be deregulated.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13585             We could commission a survey if we had the funds to determine this in a more statistically valid way, but we already have people who would represent more than a valid sample who are showing strong support.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13586             But I understand where the question comes from.  There has been a concern over the years that the community channel only ‑‑ the people are just not interested in it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13587             Our experience ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 13588             THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, that is not my question.  It is not that people aren't interested.  What if you are creating too great an interest in the community channel and you can't meet that expectation because the resources just aren't there, whether it is to produce programs of quality that people will want to watch on the community channel and/or there just aren't people in those communities who want to produce.  It is not that there is not an interest.  It is if you are creating too much of an interest and can't meet that expectation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13589             MR. WARD:  So, the concern is with our financial resources, should the TELUS market remain small, bring too many people wanting to be part of this very small community channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13590             It is a reasonable fear.  I have thought of that very thing myself, but I think we have to try because we already have people who are producing with nothing.  On the system in Vancouver, most of the access programming is by people who receive nothing, while the levy money remains with the promotional commercial channel, the commercial community channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13591             So, if they will work for nothing there, we expect that they will work for nothing in the TELUS area, but we don't want that.  We want to get the resources out there.  But will something happen without them?  It probably will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13592             THE CHAIRPERSON:  What is your contingency plan should your revenues fall short of what you have projected?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13593             MR. WARD:  Our contingency plan depends very much on how TELUS proceeds with its marketing.  We will provide what we can.  We can get the shows on there as long as there is somewhere to put the shows on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13594             Assuming that the market itself doesn't fail, assuming that there is delivery of television via high speed internet to homes, we can get programming on to it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13595             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Those are all my questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13596             Legal counsel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13597             MS LEHOUX:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13598             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13599             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13600             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.  This completes Phase I of consideration of item 12 on the agenda.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13601             We will now proceed to Phase II in which intervenors appear in the order set out in the agenda to present their interventions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13602             For the record, we have been informed that ACCESS and ICTV listed on the agenda will not be appearing at the hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13603             I would now call TELUS to appear.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13604             Please state your name for the record, and you will have ten minutes for your presentation.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13605             MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON:  Thank you very much.  Good afternoon, Madam Chair, Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13606             My name is Ann Mainville‑Neeson, and I am Director of Broadcast Regulation for TELUS.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13607             For TELUS the issue is simple.  TELUS supports the concept of community programming.  This is why TELUS intends to launch its own community programming service on TELUS TV now that it has established its broadcast distribution service in Edmonton, Calgary and Vancouver.  But rather than replicate the cable style community channel, TELUS plans to offer a state‑of‑the‑art IPTV technology to offer an innovative service which is more in keeping with the on‑demand world and the rising consumer trend away from appointment TV.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13608             There is nothing contentious about our service.  In fact, the CRTC has already deemed such an on‑demand service equivalent to a community channel.  Accordingly and fundamentally, TELUS submits that it has the legal entitlement to offer its own community programming service in an on‑demand format and, in these circumstances, the CRTC must dismiss the CMES application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13609             Let me take this opportunity, though, to tell you a bit about the proposed community service that TELUS intends to offer.  By offering its community service on‑demand, TELUS will make the programming more easily accessible to its subscribers.  TELUS considers that the video‑on‑demand platform will provide better access to community programming and will attract more viewers than would a traditional linear community channel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13610             The TELUS community programming service will have pride of place on the TELUS TV menu screen.  This screen acts as the portal to our service offering and pops up at the touch of a button on the remote control.  The TELUS community channel service will be alongside other popular menu choices which draws viewers to come back to this portal again and again.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13611             As viewers consistently see the availability of community programming and see it advertised on the barker channel, they may be drawn to check it out, and from that point TELUS hopes to capture regular visitors to its offering of home grown local content.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13612             Being part of the VOD menu provides for greater visibility to subscribers than a linear channel.  Let me explain.  Today almost 50 per cent of existing TELUS TV subscribers go to the video‑on‑demand menu system to access their desired programming.  With the hundreds of channels available on TELUS TV, many subscribers make use of the advanced interactive programming guide which allows them to program favourite channels and then surf only through those selected channels.  The system also allows subscribers to search for specific programming or for specific genres of programming services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13613             Accordingly, the number of subscribers who simply scroll through all the available channels aimlessly and who may fall upon a linear channel such as the one proposed by CMES is in fact very limited.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13614             Many interventions in this proceeding support the notion of community programming as a counterweight to the commercial and increasingly consolidated private broadcasters.  TELUS wholeheartedly agrees with this.  TELUS sees a need to add to the diversity of voices within the Canadian broadcasting system.  Accordingly, TELUS filed notice of intent to launch a community programming service with the Commission earlier this year, and this notice was included as part of the record relating to the CMES application.  Many of the intervenors seem to have overlooked this important fact when filing their interventions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13615             To the extent that some interventions have taken note of the potential for TELUS to offer a community programming service, they have dismissed the idea based on erroneous comparisons with incumbent cable companies.  TELUS notes that CMES and some intervenors point the finger at other BDUs and the Commission's policy on community programming for alleged failings in realizing their vision in community programming service.  This leads them to conclude that CMES must be given a chance to do what other BDUs allegedly aren't doing with respect to their own community programming services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13616             None of these interventions, however, explain why TELUS should be held liable for these alleged failings of other BDUs, nor do they make the case as to what powers the Commission has to expropriate TELUS's right to offer the type of community programming service already approved by the CRTC in Manitoba and Saskatchewan.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13617             TELUS considers it particularly unfair of these intervenors to make assumptions regarding TELUS's service based not on TELUS's own actions but rather on their assessment of the behaviour of other BDUs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13618             TELUS has a solid reputation for being engaged in the communities in which it operates.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13619             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms Mainville‑Neeson, your intervention is crossing the line of becoming your opening remarks for your application.  So I am going to ask you to please limit your remarks to the CMES application and the proposals therein.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13620             MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON:  Certainly.  Our intention was to explain that we do intend to offer our own service and to provide some indication to the Commission as to what that service would be like.  To the extent that you would prefer not to be informed as to what our service would be like, I can certainly ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13621             THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is not that we don't want to be informed.  There is an application before us.  We will have the opportunity to examine that application and have full analysis of what you will be providing, but we do ask you to please make this an intervention and not an oral presentation of that application.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13622             MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON:  Certainly.  Obviously TELUS considers that to the extent that the assumptions made with respect to other BDUs, which were made in the written interventions, are unfair to TELUS, and TELUS's reputation in the community is very strong.  We do have that local connection with the communities in which we serve.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13623             To the extent that the CMES application views its own application as being that much more appropriate than one offered by TELUS or any other BDU, that is where TELUS feels that it is simply unfair and wrong to consider it in that light.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13624             In fact, the alleged failings that were mentioned with respect to other BDUs, TELUS uses opportunities.  TELUS can see its own service as being one that will provide what the community seems to be asking for and we do intend to serve that market as best we can.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13625             TELUS notes that the expenditures on the current productions to be made available on the proposed community programming service have far exceeded the 2 per cent or, at this point, 5 per cent of contributions that CMES would be entitled if it were to be licensed.  This leads us to consider that the application, the financial basis of the CMES application may be unfounded.  Our current expenditures have far exceeded, as I have indicated.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13626             While TELUS intends to produce its own programming, obviously access programming is very much a part of the CRTC's community policy, and we intend to fully adhere to that.  We have engaged members of the community and have reached out in particular to CMES, who would be obviously someone that we would look to to provide programming on the TELUS service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13627             In closing, TELUS would like to emphasize that the Commission has already deemed an on‑demand community programming service, such as the one TELUS is proposing, to be equivalent to a community channel for the purposes of the contribution regime set out in section 29 of the Broadcast Distribution Regulations.  Accordingly, TELUS's intent to offer such a service should effectively bar any licensing of any independent community‑based television service to be carried and funded by TELUS.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13628             In decisions relating to MTS Allstream and Saskatchewan Telecommunications, the Commission determined that the on‑demand platform for delivering a community programming service was for all intents and purposes the equivalent of a community channel and, therefore, it granted conditions of licence authorizing the two BDUs to use the contribution regime set out in section 29 of the regulations to fund their own on‑demand community programming services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13629             Accordingly, TELUS considers that it is legally entitled under the regulation to offer its own community programming service, and CMES or others have no legal entitlement if TELUS offers a community channel or its equivalent, since TELUS has recently filed an application and the Commission has no authority under its regulations in TELUS's views to licence CMES as a community‑based television service to be funded and carried by TELUS.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13630             Moreover, based on past precedent, the Commission has no policy grounds for denying TELUS's application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13631             The fact that CMES has voiced its desire to have access to TELUS funding prior to the Commission's approval of the TELUS application is irrelevant.  All that counts is that TELUS intends to offer this community service.  Based on the wording of section 29 of the Broadcast Distribution Regulations, this effectively bars CMES from access to the funding from TELUS.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13632             This concludes my opening remarks.  I would be more than pleased to answer any questions you may have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13633             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, and thank you for understanding that sometimes we can't allow that line to be crossed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13634             One of your paragraphs says that the expenditures on its current productions to be made available on the proposed community programming service have far exceeded the 5 per cent gross revenues, soon to be 2 per cent, to which CMES would be entitled.  What is the basis for you making this statement?  Why do you believe that they just won't be able to produce the kind of programming that they have put in their application for the funding?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13635             MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON:  My statement was more to the fact that what we have spent so far on programming far exceeds what we know to be the 5 per cent contribution, which would be reduced to 2 per cent.  So, to that extent, we find that we are in a much better financial position, a better technical position and a more strategic position to offer a community service.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13636             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You also said that you are already establishing important relationships and you have specifically reached out to CMES to provide some public access programming.  Did I hear that correctly?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13637             MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON:  We have certainly reached out to establish that relationship and look forward to be able to view some of their programming to assess its relevance on our service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13638             I have been promised a private viewing of what was shown to the Commission earlier this afternoon, so I do look forward to seeing that.  Of course, we have had our programming team meet by teleconference with Mr. Ward, and we would continue that relationship, as we will with many other independent producers and other members of the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13639             CMES would be one of many that we would be consulting with and reaching out to to ensure that we have a good base of access programming available to us to fill our service, which it needs to be said that as a VOD‑based service has a lot more potential for offering more programming than a linear scheduled service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13640             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Would you expect that to be distributed across your system?


LISTNUM 1 \l 13641             MS MAINVILLE‑NEESON:  Yes.  Of course, there would be separate programming services for each region, of course.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13642             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  My colleagues, any additional questions?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13643             Ms Mainville‑Neeson, thank you very much for your intervention here today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13644             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13645             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13646             This completes the list of appearing intervenors in Phase II.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13647             We will now proceed to Phase III in which the applicant, Community Media Education Society, can reply to all interventions submitted on their application.  I would ask them to come forward.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13648             Please restate your name for the record, and you will have ten minutes for your presentation.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 13649             MR. WARD:  Richard Ward, Lynda Leonard on my left, Brock MacLachlan on my right.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13650             The first thing I should mention is that when TELUS originally applied for its licence, we intervened.  What we said in paragraph 5 of that intervention is that the solution that protects the public interest is to have TELUS, Shaw and to a lesser extent Novus, this was in the Vancouver area, use the share of their levy money to support an independent community programming service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13651             The reason that we said that was we had observed in Quebec how effective the community channel was and we had also noticed their outrage when the $22 million that independent groups had been receiving dropped to $19 million.  The broad social outrage over that, it was not just small activist groups.  I think I saw the Assembly of Bishops.  I certainly saw the heads of every municipality that you could think of, and I said to myself, why can we not have that in British Columbia?  It sounded very good.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13652             So, I wrote this intervention and we supported the TELUS application on the understanding that there would be an independent community channel, and I got a letter from Willy Grief, the Vice‑President of Public Policy and Regulatory Affairs where he says TELUS has not proposed to provide community programming as part of its application.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13653             On the strength of that, we made our application.  We followed up with it on several occasions over the years, and during that time TELUS, which could have offered something earlier, didn't, and we kept saying, well, we have a chance at this and encouraging people to be involved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13654             So, there is a matter of time here.  We are ready to do this now.  We were ready to do it then.  TELUS is ready to do it now, they say.  We will see.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13655             Regarding the levy and the amount of money that is being spent, Shaw also in Vancouver significantly outspends the levy money on their community channel, but here I see it as the person paying the piper calling the tune.  I think the levy is adequate to provide a good independent participatory public access community channel.  Spending more, again, I think puts it very much under the control of the company, and while TELUS may say that they would not do that, I still notice that they are saying that they would want to assess the relevance of the programming.     It seems the relevance is not usually whether it is important social issues.  It is whether it is relevant to a business plan.  We find most of the cuts, most of the restrictions on programming are for a corporate purpose.  We actually had an experience ‑‑ did you want to talk about in Coquitlam ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 13656             MS LEONARD:  I guess a good example of why we think community channels should be funded at arm's length from the providers is that we have an example of a program that was done by one of our volunteers at a community event and it was a fair, a festival and there was a choir of employees, former employees of TELUS and B.C. Tel, a glee club singing, and the other cable provider asked us to cut that segment because we were promoting TELUS in that segment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13657             So, that is one example, and there have been other examples of.  Well, I guess censorship that we have had to deal with.  Some have been brought before the CRTC in Vancouver when Marguerite Bogo was the Director there.  That is another reason why we want independent community television in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13658             MR. MacLACHLAN:  One of the things that I would like to emphasize is that when we are drawing people to the community channel, we are inviting groups who are traditionally excluded from that participation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13659             The problem with BDUs or people who have commercial interests, like a commercial viability of the product, if what is in this product doesn't have resonance with a popular audience, then these people are effectively excluded, and this is basically the point or basically the essence of why we are here is to secure this one little piece of turf in the media landscape of Canada, which is vast and large, and we feel that there is enough commercial opportunities for the BDUs and other commercial broadcasting operations without having to dominate every square inch of the media, and we want the community channel as a preserve for the community at large.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13660             A lot of the stuff that is produced on there is not going to be popular, but at least these people are going to feel included, and that is basically what we are about.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13661             MR. WARD:  I would like to say that I was delighted to hear that the community channel, should TELUS be the licensee, will have pride and place on the menu screen.  We will do the same.  That is important to us.  So, that was good news, and on that note I would like to end.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13662             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for being with us here this afternoon.  That concludes this part of the hearing, right, Madam Secretary?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13663             THE SECRETARY:  Yes, this completes Phase III and the consideration of item 12 on the agenda of this public hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13664             Thank you, Madam Chair.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13665             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  We will take a 15‑minute break.  We will be back at a quarter to 4:00.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1533 / Suspension à 1533

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1548 / Reprise à 1548

LISTNUM 1 \l 13666             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with items 13 and 14 on the agenda.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13667             Item 13 is an application by Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Limited (the general partner) and Jim Pattison Industries Limited (the limited partner) carrying on business as Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Limited Partnership, to acquire the assets of the radio programming undertakings CKIZ‑FM Vernon and its transmitter CKIZ‑FM‑1 Enderby, British Columbia from Rogers Broadcasting Limited.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13668             And item 14 is an application by Jim Pattison Broadcast Limited (the general partner) and Jim Pattison Industries Limited (the limited partner) carrying on business as Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Limited Partnership (collectively the Pattison Group), to acquire the assets of the radio programming undertaking CIGV‑FM Penticton and its related transmitters CIGV‑FM‑1 Keremeos and CIGV‑FM‑2 Princeton, British Columbia from Great Valleys Radio, a corporation controlled by Ralph and Jean Robinson.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13669             Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Rick Arnish.  Please introduce your colleagues, and you will then have 30 minutes to make your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13670             MR. ARNISH:  Thank you very much, Madam Secretary, Madam Chairwoman and fellow Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13671             Good day.  My name is Rick Arnish, President of the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Limited Partnership.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13672             We are very pleased to be here in front of you in Kelowna to present you our application to acquire from Great Valleys Radio Limited the licences and assets of CIGV‑FM Penticton, and its related transmitters in Keremeos and Princeton, British Columbia which is application No. 2007‑1129‑3, as well as our application to acquire the assets of the radio programming undertakings CKIZ‑FM Vernon, and its transmitter, CKIZ‑FM‑1 Enderby, British Columbia from Rogers Broadcasting Limited, application number 2007‑0868‑8.


LISTNUM 1 \l 13673             These items were originally non‑appearing items in this proceeding.  However, we received a note two weeks ago from the Commission requesting that we appear and we are pleased to do so.  While we understand the call to appear may relate primarily to an intervention filed by Vista Broadcasting Limited, focusing on issues related to the Commission's Common Ownership Policy, which we will fully address, we will firstly focus on why approval of these applications is in the public interest, the interest of the specific communities of Vernon and Penticton and in furtherance of the objectives of the Broadcasting Act.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13674             Before beginning our presentation, it is my pleasure to introduce those appearing with us.  To my immediate right is Mr. James Robinson, President of Great Valleys Radio.  Mr. Robinson will provide you with background to Great Valleys Radio and its long tradition of family service in the market of Penticton, British Columbia.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13675