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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE
THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND
TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT
LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT / SUJET:
VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /
PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Best Western Inn Best Western Inn
2402 Highway 97 North 2402, autoroute 97 Nord
Kelowna, B.C. Kelowna (C.-B.)
November 1st, 2007 Le 1er novembre 2007
Transcripts
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
Contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Transcription
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian Radio‑television and
Telecommunications Commission
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
télécommunications canadiennes
Transcript / Transcription
VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /
PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION
BEFORE / DEVANT:
Rita Cugini Chairperson / Présidente
Ronald Williams Commissioner / Conseiller
Michel Morin Commissioner / Conseiller
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTES:
Cindy Ventura Secretary / Secrétaire
Véronique Lehoux Legal Counsel /
Conseillère juridique
Francine Laurier-Guy Hearing Manager /
Gérante de l'audience
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Best Western Inn Best Western Inn
2402 Highway 97 North 2402, autoroute 97 Nord
Kelowna, B.C. Kelowna (C.-B.)
November 1st, 2007 Le 1er novembre 2007
- iv -
TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES
PAGE / PARA
PHASE III
INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:
Okanagan College Students' Union 528 / 2741
Kris Michelson
University of B.C. Students' Union
Okanagan Nation Alliance 541 / 2797
Westbank First Nations
Young Life of Canada 565 / 2910
Jessanna Jones
Brodie Kalamen
Donagh Czerwinski
John McNickel
Okanagan Symphony Orchestra 594 / 3026
Minstrel Cafe and Bar 605 / 3076
Danny McBride
Phil McGrew
Rachel MacGregor
PHASE IV
REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:
Deep Waters Media 625 / 3176
Radio CJVR Ltd. 625 / 3181
Northern Native Broadcasting 629 / 3210
Touch Canada Broadcasting 636 / 3248
Clear Sky Radio Inc. 637 / 3255
- v -
TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES
PAGE / PARA
PHASE IV (Cont'd)
REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:
CTV Limited 638 / 3262
Harvard Broadcasting Inc. 645 / 3295
Sun Country Cablevision Ltd. 653 / 3340
Vista Radio Ltd. 656 / 3359
PHASE I
PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:
Community Media Education Society 658 / 3371
PHASE II
INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:
TELUS 702 / 3605
PHASE III
REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:
Community Media Education Society 712 / 3649
- vi -
TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES
PAGE / PARA
PHASE I
PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:
Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Ltd. 718 / 3670
PHASE II
INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:
Vista Radio Ltd. 761 / 3869
PHASE III
REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:
Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Ltd. 778 / 3956
Kelowna, B.C. / Kelowna (C.‑B.)
‑‑‑ Upon resuming on Thursday, November 1st, 2007
at 0900 / L'audience reprend le jeudi
1er novembre 2007 à 0900
LISTNUM 1 \l 1 \s 27372737 THE SECRETARY: Good morning. We will now continue with Phrase III in which intervenors appear in the order set out in the agenda to present their intervention.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12738 For the record, we have been informed that Westside Warriors Junior A Hockey Club listed on the agenda will not be appearing at the hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12739 I would now call Okanagan College Students' Union, Kris Mickelson and University of B.C. Students' Union to appear as a panel to present their interventions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12740 We will start with Mr. Dave Lubbers, who is representing both the Okanagan Students' Union and the University of B.C. Students' Union. Mr. Lubbers, you have ten minutes for your presentation.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
LISTNUM 1 \l 12741 MR. LUBBERS: Thank you. Can everyone hear me okay?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12742 Good morning, Madam Chair and the rest of the panel and everybody else here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12743 My name is David Lubbers. I am the outgoing Executive Chair of the Okanagan College Students' Union, and I sit on the executive as the external coordinator for the University of British Columbia Students' Union here in the Okanagan.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12744 I have represented students in the Valley for the last four years, which covers roughly 9,000 students spanning from Osoyoos to Salmon Arm, most of whom reside in the Kelowna area. During that time I have looked after services such as transportation improvement, low income housing, environmental campaigns, and affordable education for students, as well as campus life, such as promoting events at the college and the university, often booking musical events for students.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12745 I am proud to be a part of a growing community of students here in the Okanagan. It is worth pointing out that UBC Okanagan and the Okanagan College Students' Union are some of the only institutions in British Columbia that have actually seen significant growth in the last two years. This is an area that many people don't realize is really a youth town, as well as a town that is, you know, a little bit older. It is becoming more of a college town all the time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12746 This is a place where youth are coming to become educated, and as well as to enjoy everything that British Columbia, particularly the Okanagan, has to offer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12747 That being said, I think that there are places that we could improve. We have, over the last few years, booked several bands at our pub, such as Tegan and Sara, All Night Long, Cold Driven. Some of these are local bands. Tegan and Sara is not. I believe it is from Vancouver. These bands sell out every time they come to our campus. The last time actually Tegan and Sara performed, I often have to work the door unfortunately, and a gentleman offered me $120 in cash to get in because we were sold out and the line up was so far out the door.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12748 These are not things that people are hearing on the radio, and it begs the question, if radio in our community is like a pie, it often seems like we are missing a piece of that pie. We have several radio stations in town, and I think they do a very good job of servicing a lot of the people who we have in our community, but I don't see that we have a radio station that services the demographic that I represent, students ranging from the age of 17 years old to returning students who are in their early 30s coming back to university.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12749 It is difficult to get the type of music that people are interested in. I hear a lot of stories about how radio has a chance to dictate what is cool to students, and the general consensus is that they are doing a bad job of dictating to them and that students may be able to have more input in it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12750 It is also worth pointing out that in this area a lot of the growth that we are experiencing is not local. It is students who are coming from Alberta and Ontario and the Maritimes who want to come here, and when I meet with them, sometimes we have to go for a drive and when I hop in the car, they ask me to turn the radio station off because the radio stations are not giving them what they have grown to expect in other regions of the country.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12751 Another point is in a world where most students have instant access to music on their iPods or on a CD, the relevance of radio is not necessarily to get the music that you want to listen to solely, because you could get that other ways. But in reality radio is an important venue to connect students to the community and to talk about issues that they really care about.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12752 While I hear a lot of things on the radio that I am sure very important to a great number of people in this community, I am not hearing about the issues that matter to students like better public transportation, low income housing concerns, high prices of rent. These are issues that really matter to students and it would be nice to have that kind of connection to the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12753 Events is another thing. I often hear about events that are happening in town, word of mouth after they happen, and these are events that people in my schools would very much like to go to, but they are not getting the opportunity to hear it on the radio because they are missing out on these things.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12754 The other thing that I believe radio can have an important role in is connecting not just the community to the campuses, but the campuses to the community. For instance, we participated in the World Make Poverty History Day two weeks ago, and there was not one member of the radio there. We had people from television there; we had members of the print media there; but there were no representatives from radio there. Why is that? Surely these things are important. There is youth in the community, it clearly matters to them, but the current radio situation that we have is not fulfilling that need.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12755 I think that what students are going to be looking for is a new way where they can get involved in radio and feel like they are a part of it, where they can share their experiences.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12756 I know myself, and I think Kris will probably back me up, that things like Facebook and My Space are becoming much more than just a networking tool. They have become the end of spare time. This is what people my age do. I come home after a long day at school and I log on to my computer and I see what is going on, and I like to be able to manipulate things and I like to be able to play with things.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12757 I do think that AIR‑FM has an interesting proposal, and I think that it will appeal to a younger demographic who are looking to maybe explore radio in a new way that hasn't been looked at before and give them an opportunity to dictate to radio what they think is cool.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12758 Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12759 MR. MICKELSON: Thanks very much, Dave. Good morning, Madam Chair, Commissioners and staff.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12760 My name is Kris Michelson, and I would like to thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today about radio in Kelowna from a young person's perspective.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12761 I would just like to start off to let you know a little bit about myself. I am 26 years old, originally from Vancouver Island and I have lived in the Okanagan for the past seven years and in Kelowna for the past six years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12762 I graduated from the Okanagan University College in Business in 2006, and while I attended college here, my summers were spent working on some of Kelowna's large summer festivals and events, including the Dragon Boat Festival, where I was responsible for setting up and managing all aspects of the events.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12763 This led me to being hired by the city of Kelowna to monitor and liaise with over 50 events over the past summer from approximately May to October. As a result, I have now started my own events company, Eventis Management.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12764 We are pleased to be partnering our freestyle mountain bike event with Volleyfest, which happened this year, In Kelowna and City Park of August of next year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12765 This event encompasses some of the world's best professional beach volleyball players, world's top ranked professional mountain bikers, music, live entertainment, fashion shows and community interactive activities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12766 Now I would just like to spend a bit of time about radio here in Kelowna. When I first heard of the idea of AIR‑FM, I was really interested because I thought it would be good to have a station that really focuses on young people in Kelowna because it has been my experience that young people, instead of being tuned into local radio here, are actually tuned out.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12767 Most kids that I know don't listen to radio now a days. Instead they download their music directly from the internet. They say things to me constantly like the songs played today are always the same, they don't play new stuff ever, and the news that is being portrayed isn't of interest to them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12768 I know from a young person's perspective we are really interested in the new and upcoming musicians and artists that are not too well known yet, rather than usual top 40 songs that we constantly hear.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12769 I was also really interested in the interactivity of AIR‑FM. Young people today are totally look hooked up to technology from their cell phones and iPods to the internet. To combine old technology of radio with new technology is very appealing for young people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12770 I heard a story about three young local female artists that formed a group, and apparently they are absolutely amazing vocalists and musicians. They actually went to all the troubles of creating a CD with support from their parents, and they tried to get some air time to showcase themselves. Unfortunately, they were unable to access air time just due to the fact that they were new and not that well known yet. Eventually they stopped creating music all together because of the lack of opportunity here in the local music scene.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12771 It is very upsetting to know that these young talented women did not get a fair chance to be recognized.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12772 With an interactive station in Kelowna, it will enable emerging local artists the opportunity to display their talents right here in our community. From a business perspective, it would be very helpful to be able to reach young people about Volleyfest and the freestyle mountain bike event on a station that young people actually listen to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12773 Currently there are not any vehicles present that allow local businesses and industries to advertise directly to the young demographic. Unfortunately, we must access our target markets indirectly, such as media outlets that cater to a wind range of demographic ages.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12774 Also, AIR‑FM would allow event organizers to gain direct feedback from the target market through the interactive aspect of the station, and that is something that is not easily accessible for organizers today at all.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12775 A few weeks back a thought came to me as I was listening to a local station. Although it is important for a community to be updated on traffic problems, speed traps ahead, et cetera, I feel there is a large area of important topics concerning youth today that are completely absent. AIR‑FM has the potential to speak about local problems that our youth are facing every day, from more simple problems such as bullying to more serious ones such as drug and alcohol abuse. This, in turn, could be a great way to educate and offer support to young people here in Kelowna.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12776 I personally believe this station has the opportunity to reach a young, growing market of individuals who have voices and ideas that are not currently being heard.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12777 Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to speak to you today in support of the AIR‑FM application, and I would like to invite any questions from the Commission for myself or Dave.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12778 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Lubbers and Mr. Mickelson, thank you very much for being here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12779 Do my colleagues have any questions?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12780 Mr. Lubbers, thank you. We don't get to hear a lot from students and I am hoping this is just as much an educational experience for you as it is for us to hear from you. Also, thank you very much for reminding me of my pub nights in university. Our pub was called The Blind Duck. I guess it is a good thing I still remember its name.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12781 You said a lot of interesting things in terms of what your peers expect but are not getting from radio currently. We know that there are many sources for music. You both mentioned the internet and downloading music. We have been told that five years ago there was only one source of music and that was radio. Now there is as many as ten and tomorrow there could be 15 or 20. So we know all that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12782 Why do you think that the AIR‑FM proposal, given its 360 degree model that will include streaming and downloading and uploading and blogs and all of the elements that make up that 360 degree experience, why do you think that that will then draw your peers to listen to the radio station itself?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12783 In other words, if everything surrounding the radio station, will that not satisfy what their needs are in terms of the kind of music they want to hear because they are going to hear it on the website. What will draw them to turn on the radio and tune to the AIR‑FM dial when they are in their cars, their dorm rooms, wherever, instead of wearing their iPods?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12784 MR. LUBBERS: First of all, I would like to bring you back to the idea that radio is a medium to communicate things like events and issues. I mean, you are not going to be able to easily go on the internet and find out what is happening as far as sustainable transit initiatives in Kelowna. That is a difficult Google search. You are not going to be able to go on and see what the city council is doing for affordable housing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12785 I think that a youth‑oriented radio station, however, can bring those messages to a youth audience, and I think that that is going to make it relevant and important to them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12786 But secondly, and perhaps more importantly, is that students like to feel that they matter. There is a very wide perception among people my age that there are folks up there in suits who don't care about what I have to say and they don't really care what I listen to, as long as I buy their stuff. But AIR‑FM'S proposal to make things interactive, to use people's playlists, to do those things allows students to feel like they are part of the process and that their voice really does matter.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12787 I think that is what is going to hook people on to that radio station is that interactivity that they are relevant and they can tell others, look, this is who I am, this is what I want to see. I really think that that is the hook.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12788 MR. MICKELSON: I definitely have to agree with Dave. I think young people, the internet generation, millennium generation, so to speak, really like to be involved in things. If they could see themselves being involved in creating what is the content going on air, I think they would like to be listening to what some of their peers and some of their friends may have to say or seeing a local group actually making it somewhere and getting some recognition.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12789 I think that is the biggest thing is for the youth to be involved in order to get them involved in listening.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12790 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you both very much for coming here today.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12791 Madam Secretary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12792 THE SECRETARY: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12793 For the record, there has been a schedule change. We will proceed first with Okanagan Nation Alliance and Westbank First Nation, followed by the panel of intervenors for Touch Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12794 I would now call Okanagan Nation Alliance and Westbank First Nation to come up to the presentation table.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 12795 THE SECRETARY: I would now call the Okanagan Nation Alliance and Westbank First Nation to appear as a panel. We will start with the Okanagan Nation Alliance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12796 Please introduce yourself, and you will have ten minutes for your presentation.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
LISTNUM 1 \l 12797 MR. LOUIE: Good morning. Madam Chair, honourable Commissioners, (another language spoken here) to the Westbank First Nation territory. We are the Nsyilx people, Okanagan people, the people of this land and we have lived here for thousands and thousands of years. (Another language spoken here) Westbank First Nation. I am the Chief of the Westbank First Nation. My Indian name is Simoux (ph). It means being connected to the lands. My English name is Robert Louie. I represent my community, the Westbank First Nation and also am a member of the Okanagan Nation Alliance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12798 With me today is Tara Montgomery. She is our communications officer for the Okanagan Nation Alliance. Tara will be reading the statement by our Grand Chief, Chief Stewart Phillip.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12799 As well, accompanying us is our Advancement Advisor for the Okanagan Nation Alliance, Lorraine Johnson, and she is here to assist in the event that there are questions that you might pose with regard to our presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12800 What we would like to do, Madam Chair, is to have the statement from the Okanagan National Alliance read out first by Tara, and then I would like to offer comments from the Westbank First Nation community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12801 MS MONTGOMERY: Good morning, Madam Chairman, Commissioner members.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12802 Let me first say that it is our shared history and experience, our language and our strong connection to the land, our traditional territories, that binds the seven member bands of the Okanagan Nation together. This is our strength. The seven bands represent the only First Nation resident in the valley and we speak one language, Nsyilxcen.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12803 It is our duty as a people to preserve, protect and build upon this heritage for now and for the future. The Okanagan Nation Alliance, representing the unanimous voice of all seven member bands of the Okanagan Nation, does not support this application to provide FM radio service to Kelowna, British Columbia.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12804 We have examined NNB Terrace's proposal, read its clarifications in response to CRTC questions and sat through their presentation before this hearing. We have watched NNB Terrace modify its position in answer to points we raised in our written intervention, but after all this, we are more convinced than ever that this application must be denied.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12805 We believe that NNB Terrace is attempting to mislead the CRTC panel in the same way it has the Okanagan Nation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12806 To begin, Chief Robert Louie of the Westbank First Nation was mentioned in the context of providing encouragement and support for this application. This is false and misleading, but I will leave that to Chief Louie to give you the facts.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12807 The application contains other misstatements and fabrications to imply local support. NNB Terrace has not been in regular contact with Okanagan Native leaders for the last seven years. In fact, all the Chiefs of the Okanagan Nation strongly oppose the application and have passed a Tribal Council resolution in support of establishing our own radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12808 The panel should know that personnel from NNB Terrace were contacted by myself, the Communications Officer, and Lorraine Johnson, our Advancement Advisor, in October and November of 2006. We were seeking advice and assistance from NNB Terrace in order to start our own Okanagan Nation radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12809 While this contact was for fact finding, Mr. Barry Wall, Manager of NNB Terrace, who I understand is no longer with the station, offered to do everything he could to assist the ONA in setting up its own station. He offered all direction, help and support to train staff, both in sales and production, as well as assistance in dealing with CRTC for a licence, Industry Canada for technical approval, and Heritage Canada for equipment funding.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12810 He promised to send CFNR's technical specialist to the Okanagan to assess technical needs and other costs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12811 Myself and Lorraine stressed that the programming would be heavily based on Okanagan language and culture, with special focus on children and youth programming, including stories from Elders and family language sessions. Lorraine then sent a memorandum of understanding, outlining what NNB Terrace and the ONA had discussed to Mr. Wall.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12812 Once that memorandum went unanswered, we didn't hear any further from NNB Terrace despite us phoning them and following up with e‑mails. So, when NNB Terrace claims there was no time to notify the ONA of its application and blames the CRTC process for rushing their application, they are being less than honest.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12813 They knew exactly what the Okanagan Nation hoped for in a radio station, and they knew exactly who to notify regarding their application. When the ONA learned of the NNB Terrace application, we asked Mr. Wall to come and tell us how the new station would fit with the model we had discussed. Mr. Wall met with us on September 24th, 2007 and said that since they didn't have the licence, it was pointless to discuss programming and language concerns. He was not interested in creating an Okanagan board position and was generally uncooperative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12814 In our opinion, the NNB Terrace application does not meet the requirements for the Native undertaking as defined by CRTC guidelines.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12815 Our objections are as follows:
LISTNUM 1 \l 12816 Target audience. The application does not mention the Okanagan Nation by name or identify the nation as its target audience. It provides no evidence of any knowledge specific to the particular market and offers no guarantee that its programming will "reflect the interests and needs specific to the Native audience it is licensed to serve" as in the CRTC Native Broadcasting Policy Public Notice 1990‑89 dated the 20th of September, 1990.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12817 Ownership. This application is presented by a non‑profit organization owned and controlled and directed by a board made up of individuals from well outside the Okanagan region.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12818 Board representation. The application does not offer a structure that provides for board membership by the Native population of the region served. The CRTC Native Broadcasting Policy. The application does not call for a separate governing body for the Okanagan region, nor does it designate any Okanagan positions on its existing Board of Governors.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12819 Our language concerns are as follows: The revised application promises just one hour a week, .79 per cent of program time in the Okanagan language, raised to 1.5 hours yesterday at the hearing. This minimal language programming does not fulfil the CRTC mandate of fostering the preservation of ancestral languages, as mentioned in your Native Broadcasting Policy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12820 Our cultural concerns. Cultural programming is not addressed in the application at all. It offers news, horoscopes, road reports, community events listings and phone‑in shows as poor substitutes. This falls short of the CRTC mandate of fostering the development of aboriginal cultures.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12821 Education and youth programming. The NNB Terrace application does not include educational programming or any programs designed to attract younger listeners. This ignores and excludes a significant segment of the Okanagan Nation population and will make it difficult, if not impossible, to develop and sustain loyal and growing audiences.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12822 Public examination. The application was two locations for public examination, the first NNB Terrace head office, which is 1262 kilometres from Kelowna; the other the Westbank First Nation which has never received a copy of the application or a request to display such a document in a prominent location at its offices. As a consequence, the CRTC's public examination requirement remains unfulfilled.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12823 Misrepresentation of local support. The application contains serious misstatements and fabrications to imply local support. NNB Terrace has not been in regular contact with the First Nations leaders of our community for the last seven years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12824 Lost opportunity. Granting an aboriginal broadcasting licence to Northern Native Broadcasting (Terrace) will make it impossible for the Okanagan Nation to develop its own community radio station. Preliminary work has already begun toward filing an application to the Commission to accomplish that goal and NNB Terrace was well aware of the Nation's intent to develop its own station to serve the Okanagan.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12825 The Okanagan Nation Alliance sees the NNB Terrace licensing application as an opportunistic attempt to expand into a much larger urban market without any demonstrated knowledge of the market of the First Nations communities to be served.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12826 Northern Broadcast Service is designed to reach rural isolated First Nations communities that are not served or poorly served by radio. These communities are separated by large distances and perhaps by differences in language, dialect or culture. To accommodate this, NNB Terrace has adopted a one‑size‑fits‑all approach to broadcasting that downplays language or cultural content in favour of music, interspersed with general interest items and some First Nations content.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12827 NNB Terrace's format may be acceptable to its northern audience, but it does not serve the Okanagan First Nation audience or the Okanagan market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12828 The ONA Chiefs' Executive Council is dedicated to the following communication goals: To preserve and revive the Okanagan language and culture, especially among youth; to improve communications among the seven member bands to strengthen the Nation; and to bring an Okanagan Nation perspective on issues to a broader audience and improve relations with the outside community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12829 The NNB Terrace application does not address and will not accomplish any of these communications objectives. The panel should be aware that the Okanagan Nation has its own college, the En'owkin Centre, which teaches Nsyilxcen language courses and offers instruction in media and communication. In addition, the ONA has an excellent working relationship with Okanagan College and the University of British Columbia Okanagan. The will and the infrastructure exists locally to accomplish our goal of an Okanagan Nation radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12830 Granting this licence to NNB Terrace will destroy any chance of building an Okanagan First nations radio station that would be a worthwhile addition to Native broadcasting in Canada and a complement to the local broadcasting community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12831 One of the presenters from NNB Terrace stated that they would not move forward if Okanagan Chiefs were not in agreement, and we are not in agreement and we do not support Application 2007‑0863‑8 for a new FM station in Kelowna. We ask that CRTC deny this application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12832 Thank you for this opportunity to speak to the Commission. Lim limp.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12833 MR. LOUIE: Madam Chair, if I may speak now?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12834 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12835 MR. LOUIE: Thank you. Lim limp.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12836 Madam Chair, honourable Commissioners, as Tara has indicated, not only does the Okanagan Nation Alliance collectively not support this application, the Westbank First Nation does not support the application by Native Northern Broadcasting to provide FM radio service to this city.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12837 I know that Native Northern Broadcasting (Terrace) has mentioned my name as one who has encouraged and supported their application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12838 It is very awkward for me. I very much view the First Nation from Terrace as my friends. I know Chief Bennett and his people and I know quite a bit about the community and their connection with the radio station. I have had past discussions with the people from Terrace, but this application is done without proper consultation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12839 I should also point out some salient facts.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12840 There are not 12 First Nations represented in the Okanagan Valley as Native Norther Broadcasting (Terrace) claims. In fact there is one First Nation collectively, and we refer to that nation as the Okanagan Nation, as composed of seven bands. That is the Okanagan band to the north, Westbank First Nation here Kelowna, Westbank, Penticton band, Osoyoos band, Upper Similkameen, Lower Similkameen and also the Upper Nicola band outside of Merritt.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12841 As Tara has mentioned, our language is Nsyilxcen. We are the Nsyilx people, the Okanagan people. As well, I should point out that while had in the past occupied this land before Europeans arrived, our population has considerably dwindled. We do not unfortunately make up the 15 to 20 per cent population in the Okanagan as it is right now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12842 The statistics are closer to 3 per cent of the population now is comprised of the Okanagan people, who live off reserve.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12843 So, there are misconceptions about the Okanagan Valley and about our residents who live here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12844 For the information of the panel members, I should explain that my community, Westbank First Nation, we have self‑government. Our legislation came into effect on April 1, 2005, after two decades, almost two decades, 17 years of community consultation and tedious negotiations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12845 The decision for my community to seek self‑government was not taken lightly and our road to this realization was a long one but it was finally granted to us. We have certain rights and responsibilities that we, as the Westbank First Nation take very, very seriously.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12846 One of our responsibilities includes, and I quote, jurisdiction in relation to the preservation, promotion and development of Okanagan culture and language on Westbank lands. That is pursuant to our self‑government agreement, Part 15.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12847 So, it is indeed troubling to discover that Native Northern Broadcasting (Terrace) proposes to operate a native broadcasting service on our lands and traditional territories.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12848 We have four objections to this application. They are very straight forward and they are quite simple.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12849 Firstly, our community, the Westbank First Nation, was not informed properly or consulted properly prior to or after this application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12850 Secondly, the Westbank First Nation is listed as a public examination location but we have never received any documents, notifications or copies of the application from Native Northern Broadcasting (Terrace). You can't consult after the fact, in other words. You can't indicate a location when none has been applied for.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12851 Thirdly, the application does seriously misrepresent local First Nations support.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12852 Fourthly, the application is, quite frankly, woefully deficient in programming content, as Tara has explained, the content of interest to our local First Nations audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12853 Further background on each of these four items, very briefly, the lack of consultation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12854 As I have explained, we are a self‑governing entity. We should have been informed of the broadcast application in its fullest details. We should have had the application given to us. We should have had some meetings with the people, especially since we have jurisdiction over our culture and language on our lands. We are surprised that the broadcast studio might be located in our community, Westbank, as I understand the application suggests. As I have indicated, we have received no formal request from Native Northern Broadcasting (Terrace).
LISTNUM 1 \l 12855 Undoubtedly had this taken place, this would involve leasing arrangements, business licences that we have jurisdiction over on Westbank lands and something that is very much part of this application for a location.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12856 Secondly, public examination. Our offices was listed, as I indicated, as a location where the general public could examine the broadcast application. I have asked our staff to take a thorough search from our staff, our personnel have gone through the Canada Post courier, e‑mail receptions and any other documentation that might have been submitted. We have failed to find any documents or notifications from Native Northern Broadcasting (Terrace). There have been verbal discussions seven to eight years ago with myself with Native Northern Broadcasting. I admit that and certainly I will comment further upon your questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12857 As far as a public examination, we can only conclude that the documents were never sent to us. So, the CRTC requirement of public examination has, quite frankly, not been fulfilled.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12858 Thirdly, the local support. Including my community, the Westbank First Nation in this application and the CRTC application before you without our knowledge or consent breaches First Nations protocol and, quite frankly, again offends business ethics. It is seen by us as a back door approach to gain this broadcast licence, intended to convey the impression that our community supports this application, which we do not.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12859 The Okanagan Nation Alliance Chiefs Executive Council have met. We concluded that no Chiefs or band councils have been in regular or continuing contact with Native Northern Broadcasting (Terrace) regarding a native broadcasting station as they maintain in their application. We have seven Chiefs involved along with their council.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12860 Fourthly, the program content of it. Their application contains programming which at this point seems of little interest to our Okanagan Nation. The language commitment is less than 1 per cent of program time per week. This is unacceptable to us. We cannot think of any other Native undertaking with the language component under 5 per cent of program time. We know of some stations in Ontario that devote as much as 90 per cent of their air time to Native languages and culture.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12861 So, in our viewpoint this application is more similar to a commercial radio station, playing old rock and roll music, and masquerading as a Native undertaking. This is unacceptable to us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12862 In conclusion, an Okanagan Nation radio station reflecting the language and culture needs to be specific to our nation, to our stated goals as a people and our stated goals, from the Chief's Executive Council of the Okanagan Native Alliance, have not been met.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12863 It should be owned and controlled by a non‑profit organization, with board membership drawn from the First Nation population of the Okanagan, our people. Much work has already been accomplished to this end, and perhaps this is something that Native Northern Broadcasting may be somewhat aware, but a lot of work and a lot of discussion has been put towards ourselves as a people making an application to CRTC for our own radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12864 We expect, my community, the Westbank First Nation expects that we will be prepared to submit our application for a Native undertaking to yourselves certainly within the next 12 months. We hope to have it much, much sooner than that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12865 My council, my community that I represent, requests that the CRTC deny the application for this Native Northern Broadcasting 2007‑0863‑8 for a new FM radio station in Kelowna, B.C. It is unfortunate that this has not been further discussed with the people who have made this application. We regret that, and I am certainly prepared to answer any questions that you might have regarding any conversations we have had in the past, more so in the last seven to eight years past, not recently.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12866 A lot of effort has been put by our people and consideration has been given to having an application sent before you. We fully intend to do that. You will be hearing our application, should you deny this application, and we commit to you to have this before you within the expedient time necessary to have this heard.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12867 Thank you for your time and the opportunity to present our views at this public hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12868 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Chief Louie.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12869 I will ask Commissioner Williams to begin the questioning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12870 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good morning and welcome to our hearing, Chief Louie and fellow panellists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12871 Yesterday we heard from Mr. Bartlett in answers to questions about consultation. He felt it was a very detailed complex process and it would take a large amount of time and there wasn't sufficient time in order to do that. Can you comment on that, please?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12872 MR. LOUIE: We are involved in consultation with all kinds of groups: Mining, forestry, developers, everyone that involves lands in our area.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12873 Quite frankly, we see this as, when you are talking about consultation, if you are talking forest, for example, if you cut down the trees and then come to us and say we cut down the trees, is that right? That is how we see this application. The licence is granted. Why is there need for consultation? That is after the fact.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12874 Consultation by law, as we understand it, by law, when we are looking at things like forestry and mining and so forth ‑‑ and we view this as no exception ‑‑ should be properly done, and that is before hand. We should be sitting down and perhaps had that occurred, perhaps we could have worked out some sort of an arrangement that would be mutually beneficial.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12875 We are in a very awkward position right now with this hearing and with the non‑consultation that should have been properly done, taken after the fact.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12876 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You have invited us to ask you so I will ask you. Could you please describe the nature of your prior conversations with the applicant over the past seven years or so?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12877 MR. LOUIE: By all means. In my other capacity as Chairman of the Lands Advisory Board I have travelled to many communities across Canada, assisting First Nations to get into land management, and I have done so with this community at Terrace.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12878 I know the Chief very well. I know most of the council members very well and I know many of the community members very well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12879 Some time ago, and I am looking at my records and trying to recollect, it is somewhere in the seven, eight years ago, certainly I have been at the community and spent a fair amount of time looking over their lands, understanding what sort of land jurisdiction they were seeking, and had the opportunity to view their radio station. Certainly I had discussions with their Chief, executive people, with their radio announcers and even did some interviews with Native Northern Broadcasting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12880 Our discussions were looking at, well, what about the expansion of Native Northern Broadcasting to other areas. I indicated that we were certainly looking at this; perhaps we could work out some sort of arrangement; perhaps this would be a good idea. We are looking for experienced people, experienced radio station, so, yes, at that time we had some discussions. They were cordial discussions. We have never followed up with anything beyond that, outside of their offices at Terrace.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12881 I know they had some interest. I didn't know where they would end up going, whether it would be Prince George or other places, Williams Lake. I don't know exactly the full extent of Native Northern Broadcastings' coverage, but I know they have some good people up there, and I am friends with most of the people, I think, at least associated with the council. They are very good people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12882 But here, unfortunately, no, there has been no follow up discussions. As I have clearly indicated we have not received any documentation, anything of any significance, and this is unfortunate, as it is, and is awkward, very awkward for me to speak against the First Nation who I very much admire, very much respect, and it has put me into a very awkward position. But that is the actual facts.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12883 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Chief Louie.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12884 Just to summarize, I guess your intervention this morning, you are saying there is no local support, no consultation, no or very little local reflection, no local ownership, no local management, the application is not good enough for the Okanagan people and then you recommend that we do not license it. Would that be an effective summary of your presentation?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12885 MR. LOUIE: I think that would be almost exact.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12886 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I guess I have one question at the end of that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12887 Is there any opportunity for you two groups to work together after?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12888 MR. LOUIE: Perhaps.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12889 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In the event that we did deny a licence?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12890 MR. LOUIE: I think perhaps. I would certainly welcome that opportunity. I think these people have a lot of good experience and I would welcome that opportunity. So I would hope that that would be possible.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12891 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you very much, Chief Louie. That concludes my questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12892 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12893 Just for my own knowledge, Chief Louie, because your intervention also mentioned the lack of aboriginal languages on this station as proposed, how many languages are spoken in the Okanagan Nation?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12894 MR. LOUIE: There is one language, that is the Nsyilxcen as part of the Nsyilx people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12895 THE CHAIRPERSON: And that is spoken among the seven bands that make up the Okanagan Nation?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12896 MR. LOUIE: That is correct. I should indicate that Upper Nicola has a partial occupation of Thompson people. So there is some overlap, but they have participated and the majority are Okanagan, and they are the Nsyilx people. So, one language in the Okanagan Valley.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12897 THE CHAIRPERSON: You wanted to add something. Please go ahead.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12898 MS MONTGOMERY: I just wanted to say that the Nsyilxcen language also has old dialects as well in the Similkameen area and people of the Similkameen. They spoke a different dialect in Nsyilx, but since time has progressed, there are less people who speak that old dialect and have more converted to ‑‑ it is like the language has kind of evolved into this language, but there was that old dialect of the Simillkameen people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12899 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for that. I was going to ask you a whole bunch of questions about demand for a radio station in this area, what kind of radio station you would like to see, but since you have told us that you would probably be filing an application for us, I am going to avoid those questions and allow you to tell us that information in your application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12900 Thank you very much for your intervention here today.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12901 Madam Secretary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12902 MR. LOUIE: Lim limp, Madam Chair; lim limp, Commissioners. Thank you for this opportunity.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12903 THE SECRETARY: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12904 I would you call Young Life of Canada, Jessanna Jones, Brodie Kalamen and Donagh Czerwinski to appear as a panel to present their interventions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12905 Please proceed to the presentation table.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12906 THE CHAIRPERSON: We have just been informed that one of the other intervenors who was to appear on this panel have a little bit of a plane delay and is in a cab on his way to the hotel from the airport, so we are going to take a break at this point. Sorry to have called you up here. We will take a 20 minute break. We will be back at 10:10.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12907 Thank you.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 0950 / Suspension à 0950
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1009 / Reprise à 1009
LISTNUM 1 \l 12908 THE SECRETARY: I would now call Young Life of Canada, Jessanna Jones, Brodie Kalamen and Donagh Czerwinski to appear as a panel to present their intervention.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12909 We will start with Jessanna Jones. You will have ten minutes for your presentation.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
LISTNUM 1 \l 12910 MS JONES: Thank you so much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12911 Good morning, Madam Chair and the Commissioners. My name is Jessanna Jones, as mentioned, and I live here in Kelowna. I am a wife and a mother, as well as a young adult, so I would like to present my case for why I really strongly believe that Touch Canada would be a great choice for a new radio station in Kelowna.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12912 Firstly, I would like to just start off as a perspective as a young adult and how I really strongly believe that there is a huge market niche out there for my age group, for early 20s and late teens as far as the style of music that can be playing and that a radio station that would have all these different varieties of music that will reach all these different age groups I think is very important.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12913 I know for myself I am extremely excited to be able to take my music anywhere, listening to it in the car and on the road, as well as at home. So having a radio station that will be playing the type of music I already listen to at home would be a really good thing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12914 Second of all, I would like to talk about the most important thing and that is being a mother, a new mother of two kids and a third on the way, we just found out it is another little boy so we are very excited about that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12915 Having said that, my priority and my focus is raising my children. We are really committed to wanting to raise them in a healthy, wholesome surrounding and upbringing and instilling into them our morals and our values.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12916 When I look around at society today, unfortunately there aren't too many parts of the media and things that are complimenting our values that we are trying to instill at home especially when it comes to the radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12917 For us in our scenario, we have a home of MP3 and CDs and stuff like that that we listen to, but when we get out on the road unfortunately we only have a cassette player, and so any kind of music we have in our house, being an MP3 and CDs we don't have cassettes. So my children, who love music and my 3 year old always asking for it, is obviously the radio. That is our option.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12918 When I get into the car and we turn on the radio, their content and the lyrics and the attitude of things that are being sung about aren't really appropriate for a three year old. She is extremely smart and inquisitive, and I know that this issue is just going to grow more and more as her comprehension grows and her questions grow.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12919 So, 90 per cent of the content that I have been listening to on our local radio stations aren't something that I would want my child to be listening to. The questions are starting to be raised. A lot of content is about sex and break ups and a lot of negativity and things that we are not only trying to avoid at this early of an age, but also wanting to instill our own values from the home.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12920 So, for my child having to listen to these types of things is something we are not into. So, we have been listening and tuning into the classical station, I believe it is CBC or something like that, that we can listen to often. Other than that, there isn't really anything out there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12921 I know that I am not the only one that has this problem. I know many, many young mothers. I am really well connected here in the community and we all have that similar thing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12922 Whether you are religious or not, you still want your children to be innocent and to still be able to have good moral values in the home and that being complimented and affirmed elsewhere, including the radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12923 Having a radio station in the Okanagan that is going to do that is something that I really think is important and I believe that there is a very broad audience for it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12924 When I look around at society and I look around for the different role models that there is for my young girl especially out there, there isn't necessarily one that I really want her looking up to with the way they dress and what they talk about and the content of the music and everything. I believe that it is not only disturbing, but I don't believe that any good parent that is really looking out for the well‑being of their children want their type of role model for them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12925 So I think having the option of other music will bring in other artists and stuff that have more positive energy, positive values being instilled instead of the normal kind of musical lyrics and stuff like that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12926 I am not saying that every single song played on radio today is evil and wrong and bad and just plain awful for kids, but unfortunately it is a huge percentage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12927 So that is something that I am really looking forward to having that other option of having Touch Canada broadcasting as a station here in the Okanagan.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12928 The other thing that I would like to mention is that whenever we go anywhere else, such as Calgary or Edmonton, that is something we actually regularly listen to, the first thing when we come into the city limits is tune into those radio stations. I know the people there, they listen to it, that we know, and enjoy it. And it is something like I'm always, like, oh, why don't we have something like this in the Okanagan. Why don't we have this option to be able to listen to for ourselves as different types of programmings for parenting and bringing up different issues, but also for children. There is going to be children programs and things like that that they can listen to and something that you can just leave on freely, whether you are in the car or house and you are not having to listen to the lyrics and listen to the content of the song and be worried about what messages are being portrayed to your children that are going to conflict with what you are trying to instill into them as just even morality and just how you are supposed to live and be.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12929 I don't know any parent, a good parent that wants the best for their children wanting their children growing up thinking I want to go to a party or going to parties where there is hooking up with others and drunkenness and even, dare I say it drugs, because that is becoming such a norm. But if you look at the different role models on the music stations, that is exactly what they portray. Even if it is artistic expression as an excuse, it is still something that they are portraying and that kids are looking up to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12930 So I really, really believe that there is a whole generation of children, I am only 23, but I am not alone in this, I have many, many other young mothers, play groups, walking groups and stuff like that that are all having children, and I believe it is emerging of different age groups.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12931 I have friends that just had their second and they are in their forties, as well as mothers that are in their thirties. It is a whole generation that is settling down and having children. So there is going to be a whole generation coming up.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12932 As a mother, young or old alike, we are concerned for what kind of examples are going to be out there. So, having an alternative radio station with alternative artists that are going to be displaying their music and being proper role models is something that is extremely imperative and I think needs to be really looked at.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12933 I don't know about you, but as a mother, not even anyone that is religious but just as a mother who wants their child to know that there are really cool people that you want to be like out there that are expressing their art and their music in a way that is classy, in a way that is not scandalous or sleazy but something that is moral and right and something that can draw from the inside the lyrics that are more challenging, not just same old sexual content, partying and breaking up and singing about that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12934 I mean, that is great, that is part of life, we all have to get used to it some time but that doesn't need to be the majority of everything.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12935 I really want to stress that. I think it is so important that we bring a Christian radio station into the Okanagan that is going to offer different programmings for all sorts of different age groups, but for sure one that is going to be hitting this new booming market of young families. So, for parents and their programs, for children and their programs, and then just general music because as our children grow up, they will become teenagers and they will be changing their different styles of music as well. So, having a station that is going to be there throughout the generations, a station that is going to be there to be safe and fun and the parents are not going to have to worry about what is going to be listened to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12936 I think it is a start. It is obviously not the answer to all the troubles in society but it is something; it is an option. And I think that it will definitely be the start of good for our kids and for our future.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12937 Thank you so much. That is everything. If you have any questions, otherwise, Donagh.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12938 MS CZERWINSKI: Good morning, Chair and Commissioners.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12939 My name is Donagh Czerwinski. It is very common for that name to be said extremely wrong, but that is okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12940 THE CHAIRPERSON: I can relate.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12941 MS CZERWINSKI: I am a registered nurse at KGH here in Kelowna. I grew up in Winfield when it was called Winfield, not Lake Country. I was then unchurched and unfamiliar with anything that was Christian.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12942 When I was 18 I moved to the Lower Mainland for ten years and at that time I did become a Christian. While living in the Lower Mainland I discovered Christian radio and I was exceedingly delighted. Eight years ago I moved back to Kelowna where my husband and I are raising are family.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12943 The one big thing I have missed since moving back to the Okanagan Valley has been Christian radio. My husband and I have both talked about it. He has lived in Calgary. He has listened to the Shine FM. We both really missed not having that kind of content on the radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12944 When I was living in the Lower Mainland I had the Christian radio on every day at home or in my car. Today my family does not own a TV but we do own a radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12945 Sadly I have been very disappointed and hard pressed to find anything worth listening to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12946 I want my children to be exposed to things that will build them up and not tear them down, which is a lot of what Jessanna was just saying as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12947 Most of the time we lend our ear to the CBC with its classical music content. However, even that radio station has to be monitored carefully as some on the content is not suitable for our children. I also find just some of the commentaries that the speakers are saying in their own words is not the kind of words that I want my kids to hear or the gestures I want them to be picking up either.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12948 I have really strong moral convictions and beliefs that I want to upbring for my family. I am not against secular programming or music, but I don't choose to have the unpredictability of it in my home. I do find it unpredictable, which is what Jessanna was also mentioning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12949 Christian radio is what is missing as a wholesome option here in the Okanagan Valley. In my ten years of listening to Christian radio in the Lower Mainland I never heard anything that I would not want my children to hear. Never have I heard any depressing, angry, oppressive or sexual lyrics in the music which I was listening to the radio. The programming is always uplifting. It is positive and I find it very inspiring. The focus is toward good things like doing good, loving your neighbour, loving yourself, even loving your father in heaven and honouring your parents and other such family values. It is this positive, encouraging atmosphere that I and my husband want in our home for our family. Touch Canada Radio can fill that void in the Valley here. I have been longing for this in Kelowna since I moved back here, which I also mentioned.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12950 It is my opinion that what Kelowna is not looking for is more of the same old, same old radio programming. We currently have an ample selection of that. Today I can turn my radio on and find just about anything I want as long as what I want is more secular mainstream programming. I believe that the market for Christian radio programming in the Okanagan Valley will prove itself to be very broad and supported by the business community as well. I am one person and I know of a great number of businesses that are either owned or managed by persons that do share similar convictions that I have, and I believe that they would support it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12951 I am very confident that these and a great number more would be delighted to support Touch Canada Radio for its moral programming. I am also aware of well over 100 individuals and families, just like Jessanna was saying, that are as eager as I am to have a quality run, morally focused Christian radio station in our valley. Overall, I feel that this station will be very well received here in the Okanagan Valley.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12952 I just have a little story. My little girl Joah, that is her name, she is 20 months old, and she is a healthy little sponge. She soaks up everything that she sees and hears. For this reason, I and my husband have to be very careful what we model in everything that we do and say.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12953 I was in the grocery store a while ago with little Joah. We were standing in a line to pay for our groceries and all was going fine. It was a rather unremarkable shopping event, which is remarkable in itself. I thought I was getting away unscathed. I had my milk and my cheese in one hand and Joah's little hand in my other. As I stepped forward to dispense my bounty on to the conveyer belt before me, I heard something rather large coming from my rather small little girl. These words reverberated forward with a certain passion I was not yet aware that she possessed. She said quite loudly, "Lady, move it." I was so embarrassed. If that isn't bad enough, I turned to see my wee peanut lunging at a leg that had stepped in front of her, giving a mighty shove, a very determined and justified look transforming her normally serene little face. I was amazed and relieved that the lady hardly seemed to even notice Joah. She just continued on her way without looking down or breaking her stride.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12954 So, where did that come from? It took me the rest of the day to figure out the answer. I realized that she was repeating something she had in fact heard me say. We have a rather bold little cat that has taken to begging as of late, so when she tries to take over the dining room chair that I have been sitting on, I gently push her toward the edge, and I loving say, "Zoe, move it." But I must say that is not the sound; it sounds nothing like what came out of my daughter when she boldly blurted out her little statement in the grocery store.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12955 Having said that, it is impossible for me or my husband to be able to monitor everything that our daughter hears and even less possible for us to control what she says and when she is going to say it. That is why it is so important that we have a quality Christian radio station that can provide our Valley with safe and fun programming for the whole family.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12956 I cannot be in the room every second with my daughter when the radio is on. It doesn't take much more than an interesting sounding word with some emphasis for her to be drawn toward it and then repeat it. There are very few, if any, careless words spoken on Christian radio and for that I am grateful and much relieved. Sadly, currently here in the Okanagan Valley we do not as of yet have that option to turn to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12957 One thing that has drawn me to support Allan Hunsperger is his commitment to quality programming and professional integrity. I have had the pleasure on more than one occasion to listen to his Calgary and Edmonton radio station broadcasts, Shine FM while visiting relatives in Alberta. I have enjoyed every minute of it and I am impressed by the quality and the consistency I have found in that programming. I have nothing but confidence in his ability to provide the Okanagan Valley with that same level of quality and integrity.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12958 This is what we need here Kelowna and the surrounding areas, quality Christian radio broadcasting, as offered by the well‑established Touch Canada application. So, I urge you strongly to please consider this application and what this radio station will mean not only for my family but for all those in the Okanagan Valley as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12959 Thank you for your time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12960 MR. KALAMEN: Madam Chair and Commissioners and staff, good morning. My name is Brodie Kalamen, and I have been fortunate to be born and raised here in Kelowna. I have watched Kelowna grow from a small town surrounded by orchards and mountains to a large city that is bursting at the seams.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12961 As a young boy on my way to school I remember getting up early enough to get out the door and warm up the car for my mom so she could drive us to school. I remember enjoying turning up the stereo so I could listen to some music while I imagined myself driving the vehicle. I enjoyed most styles of music such as country, pop, rap, rock, gospel, and remember having to go through CD after CD in order to listen to the music that I was interested in. Never once do I remember turning on the radio. Why? Even though I enjoyed all types of music, there wasn't a content played that connected to me the way that my CDs and my collection had. I knew that the musicians on the radio were talented and could sing, but I was looking for something more. What I was looking for was found in a type of music only played on the radio for an hour on a Sunday morning. This, by the way, isn't even being played any more.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12962 As I got older, I was able to attend an event that was a type of Christian Woodstock called Creation Festival. Tens of thousands of young and old gathered to hear all the musicians that gathered for that event. I was totally blown away. My mind was opened up to all sorts of new bands, new music, new styles, and I had no idea that there were musicians like that. I attributed my ignorance to coming from a small town in the Okanagan Valley.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12963 But with the internet, I was able to search out labels and recording companies and review their artists that had signed for them. From there I was able to special order music, books, and I began to share the music and those resources with my friends and they took interest and began to write and create their own music, emulating the styles that they had seen at the festivals and that I had introduced them to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12964 In result, a whole culture of youth began to outlet their creativity in music and began to draw huge gatherings to the events that we hosted. Many of my friends now have become professionals in the music industry and I believe it was due, in part, to their exposure to new and creative music. Imagine what might have been able to occur if we had had the opportunity at an even younger age to have heard that type of music on the radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12965 The other day I was able to hang out with a friend of mine. I was excited to see him because he was working night shifts and was usually asleep during the day. He had begun going through some really rough times with his health and he had to step out of a flight school he was attending because he was experiencing fatigue and dizziness. When I began to talk to him, he was asking some really deep questions. The questions he was asking were the questions that people ask under their breath, but rarely openly, even to their closest confidante. These questions were pertaining to his soul, his purpose in life, his future, his health. As I know, he didn't attend any church that I knew of or hung out with any people that I was associated with. I asked him where those questions were coming from. I asked what had stimulated those thoughts.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12966 He began to tell me how when he worked night shift he was managing a machine and in the meantime he would listen to the radio. He asked me if I had ever heard of a fellow named Dr. James Dobson. I had. He said that he never missed an airing of his show. In my opinion, the things discussed on his show are interesting, but didn't hold my attention for long. But to him it was a life line. It stimulated questions, it raised awareness, and gave him hope that there was going to be something that would happen for his benefit, that there might be a cure for the thing he was dealing with and that things were going to turn out all right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12967 As we all know, the airwaves are powerful. They have the ability to reach people in their homes, their cars, their businesses. If there was capability to introduce more people to hope, make more people aware and ask the questions that no one else is really asking, shouldn't we stand behind it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12968 In my occupation I deal with young people on a daily basis. I teach them to guard their minds, guard their eyes, their ears. I teach them to focus on things that are good, wholesome, pure, things that bring hope and that increase in them a desire to do good for their neighbourhood or their neighbours and their family. It is a constant battle which often times feels really futile, and it is my hope that there will be a source such as this radio station that I could point them to that connects them with what really should inspire them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12969 Every family unit needs something they can listen to together. Family‑oriented programming is hard to find today on the radio and on TV. Programming that draws a family together and gives them something they can all agree with and embrace would be an incredible source of strength to the family unit. Like I said, in my occupation, I have come across many resources and media that I know many people don't know about that can be exposed from this radio station. To me, it is a shame, and I try and expose it to them on my own, but what if they had the platform of the radio waves? So many more people could be made aware and take advantage of the resources and media that I know about.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12970 As a life resident of Kelowna, I believe I carry a pulse for the city. I know that a radio station such as Shine FM with Touch Canada would be warmly welcomed and celebrated in the city. People have been waiting for this to happen for years. I know it is still in the preliminary process, but the excitement has already begun to stir in the numbers of people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12971 It is my hope that you respond to the desire of the people here and welcome the programming as we will.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12972 Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12973 MR. McNICKEL: Good afternoon, the whole group of you, Commissioners and people sitting on the council.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12974 My name is John McNickel. I am from Edmonton, Alberta and I work with Young Life. I oversee our work with teenagers from B.C. to Ontario and have been involved for 25 years. Recently I have been working on a doctorate degree and particularly studying the value of mentoring teenagers and addressing spiritual needs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12975 The literature is very interesting in that it says that teenagers across North America are in crisis and that crisis is deepening and it is deepening particularly in regards to the many indicators that we often speak of, depression and anxiety and food, eating disorders, alcoholism, dangerous behaviour, really every indicator that has teenagers at risk.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12976 So, those of us who are working with teenagers across North America are very concerned saying this seems to be getting worse and the statistics show that. So, the question has been placed and has been battered around for quite some time to say what is it that we could really do. Part of the answer that seems to be coming up is that we need systemic change for the way that we function as a culture and just the sense of community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12977 One of the things that has been studied is that the human being needs connection to other human beings. This is how we are formed. This is how we are loved into loving, cared into caring and we become the people that we are.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12978 So, one of the things that seems to be happening is somehow that teenagers and others are being disconnected from their family, from the rest of the community and the other age groups, and in their isolation, they sometimes choose to connect quite deeply to their peer group or to their media or to parts of culture that are available to them and, therefore, they become informed and in some ways culturated. They assimilate with that which is around them and they become like that which is around them. An expression I like to use sometimes is as a twig bends a tree grows.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12979 One of the concerns that we have is that we need to strengthen community, and the solution seems to be to create much stronger connection for families, for the school, for everyone that is working and living in a community to have connection to teenagers. If there is greater connection, then those teenagers will feel that they are a part of something larger than themselves and they will perhaps at times receive the Eldership, the mentoring and the guidance that prevents them from doing some of the stupid things that they do, which are foolish and get them into trouble simply because they are willing to experiment, they are willing to follow a peer pressure, they are willing to listen to an idea and think, well, I will try that out. They are a very experimental group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12980 Unfortunately, it is leading to more deaths just in their risk behaviour. They will see something on TV, an extreme behaviour and there is more accidents happening that is causing death.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12981 One idea is that kids were having fun in sort of a rash of activity where they were lying down on the highway on the yellow line while the trucks were going by to say this would be fun. Really, the concept is that what if somebody were to speak to them at that time and say, well, let's play soccer instead, maybe an adult in their lives and in fact many of these kids would say, sure, you know, we're not that interested in lying on a yellow line; we just want to have a good time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12982 What I am leading to is that there is this need for community. It is a need for all human beings. It is not just teenagers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12983 But I think that what radio can do is get into moments in people's lives and speak to them, and that is what communication does at all times. I wanted to speak of two stories where I have been touched by radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12984 One was with Jean Vanier and the Massey Lecture Series and him talking about the value of human beings. He was a person who committed his life, although he was from a family of great wealth in eastern Canada, he committed his life to loving disabled persons.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12985 As a wise Elder in our country, he is recognized as somebody who could teach us what it is to be human. In his teachings I found listening to the radio one time that I pulled over to say, wow, this guy is really encouraging me. This man is changing and affirming my ideas that we ought to care for one another. We ought to be a strong community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12986 I think we all know that that is what we want and I think the fear possibly of this council is that the Christian element might be a fundamentalist group that would lead to some of the fundamentalist problems that are all over the world.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12987 I just want to say that there are many in the Christian community like Jean Vanier who are strong leaders, who have a contribution to make and the people who are working in Touch Canada are really making an effort to guide people towards positive alternatives, positive directions and to do it with great wisdom and not the fundamental foolishness that sometimes is available.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12988 It is sad that that exists but I don't think the fear of it should deter you from encouraging this radio station, particularly with the reputation they have in other communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12989 One other story I would like to tell is that we had a couple of miscarriages and then we were told that we were going to miscarry and we waited for my daughter and after 20 weeks they told us it was going to happen again. I have a little daughter and two sons and she was delivered.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12990 About three months after that, I was just cruising the radio, driving home from work and I heard a song and it was ‑‑ I am almost embarrassed to say ‑‑ it was called Butterfly Kisses. But what that song said was here is a father who wants to love his daughter and, for whatever reason, I was moved, I cried, I had to pull over to say I am excited, my daughter is alive. But radio will reach into people's lives and in certain moments will, I think, inspire them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12991 When this particular station has the goal of enabling community and bringing health to the community, including a spiritual orientation, I don't think it needs to be feared, but it could be extremely positive for the community, and I am hopeful that you will allow that to happen.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12992 Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12993 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you to all of you for your presentation today. Glad you could make it, in Mr. McNickel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12994 I will ask Commissioner Williams to lead with some questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12995 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good morning, panellists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12996 Ms Jones, in your opinion is the Touch Canada proposal the only applicant that can provide programming that can, in your words I think, positively contribute to the wholesome upbringing and help instill in your children the morals and standards of purity, integrity and justice that local parents want for their children? Is this the only one?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12997 MS JONES: I am not exactly aware of all the applicants that have been coming across you guys. Touch Canada is one that I am familiar with as far as being in Edmonton and being in Calgary, having listened to their programming, listened to their radio station firsthand, as well as knowing many people in both cities that listen to it on a regular basis.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12998 It is one that I know that I can feel comfort with, that I am happy to have in my home and playing for my children and for myself listening to that music. I know that it is the style of music that I like that I will be listening to at home anyways, as well as exposing me to more newer artists out there that would, like Brodie said, take me a lot longer to find and then go, oh, I wish I knew about this earlier.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12999 So, I am not exactly aware of all the other applicants so I can't say for sure to you. It is one that I firsthand have experience and am familiar with and so that is why I for one really support that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13000 I know it is totally coherent with my values and everything I believe. So there is going to be no question for me and for a lot of other people I know to just be letting that playing to be a loyal listener.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13001 Does that answer you question?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13002 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It does. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13003 Ms Czerwinski, we have heard much of protecting children in their formative years. Could you comment on the benefits to, say, young adults and older population of this type of programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13004 MS CZERWINSKI: My experience with them in Calgary and stuff is that they also have programming specifically for teens, not just for my age group as well. I believe on Saturdays they have very contemporary, upbeat, the newest of the newest coming out for teens and young adults, things that they can really get their teeth into and be excited about and emulate is actually a lot of what you see is happening. They have little bands and they play for their friends and what they play is what they hear, and I think it covers that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13005 Also I believe on the weekend they turn more of a focus during the day, is my understanding, to more of a kind of a dial down for the seniors, that kind of a thing. It is a little more contemporary. It is a softer rock for those kinds of people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13006 So I believe that they cover all those areas in their programming, and all of those areas, the content is still moral, it is still family orientated, it is still fun, and it is still safe.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13007 So, for me in all the stages of my family, as they grow, they will continue to be able to be blessed by this station, to listen to this station and have absolutely no fear of the content.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13008 Did I answer?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13009 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You did. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13010 Mr. Kalamen, is this type of programming something that you personally would imagine listening to for a full life? Do you listen to other broadcasters?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13011 There are two questions there. Do you listen to other broadcasters or is this type of programming the only type that you are interested in?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13012 MR. KALAMEN: As I mentioned earlier, Kelowna is the only place I have ever lived so I haven't had the chance to actually live in Calgary or Edmonton or Vancouver where I have been exposed to Christian radio otherwise.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13013 So, what I have done is, like I said, I have listened to a lot of CDs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13014 But recently I have been listening to the radio stations that we have in place right now, and I enjoy the radio. I enjoy the music and things, but I know I would be tuned in, I know I would be tuned in to that specific station. That would probably be the station that my wife and I would tune into and the one I would listen to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13015 So, it would be specific to me, yes. The answer would be yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13016 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13017 Mr. McNickel, the teenager community connection, do you know much about Shine's programming that is directed towards the teenage audience?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13018 MR. McNICKEL: Yes, I do. Sorry, I am not familiar with every program, but I am aware of kids who are listening and enjoying the music. I would say that the demographic of the listener definitely includes some teenagers who are interested in that music, although not all for sure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13019 But I would say it tends to be contemporary and not the classic gospel that the Elders would like in their Christian listening, and so to me it goes right up to the soccer moms. I think there are a lot more moms that are listening than men. I think there are a lot of teenagers who are listening in particular segments to say, well, this is my time to hear my DJ and there is an audience that is doing that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13020 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you very much. That concludes my line of questioning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13021 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you all very much for your participation in these proceedings.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13022 Madam Secretary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13023 THE SECRETARY: I would now call the Okanagan Symphony Orchestra to come up to the presentation table.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 13024 THE SECRETARY: We will now proceed with Caroline Miller from the Okanagan Symphony Orchestra.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13025 Ms Miller, you have ten minutes for your presentation.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
LISTNUM 1 \l 13026 MS MILLER: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13027 I am the General Manager of the Okanagan Symphony Orchestra. While I didn't originally think I was going to be able to be here today due to a scheduling conflict, I am delighted that I am able to make an appearance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13028 I had invited several of our young symphony players to be with me this morning, but unfortunately they appear to be locked in their classrooms at school. And while radio station CJVR very kindly offered to give them a note so that they could be absent, their parents, no doubt wisely, declined.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13029 I am here because CJVR came to see me last spring and wanted to learn more about music in the Okanagan community, live music in our case. The Okanagan Symphony was formed in 1960. We have between 45 and 65 musicians who play at each of our concerts throughout the year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13030 Our musicians are professional classical trained musicians, and the Okanagan Symphony Orchestra is the third largest professional orchestra in the province. We are very proud of our heritage and will be celebrating our 50th anniversary in 2010.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13031 At that time, we will be performing for the first time, a commissioned work, Canadian commissioned work, which will celebrate our 50th anniversary, under the baton of our new music director, Rosemary Thompson, who is moving here from the Calgary Philharmonic.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13032 When CJVR came to see me, they spent a fair bit of time finding out a bit about our symphony orchestra, what our needs were and how we interact with our community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13033 We are not the Kelowna Symphony. We are the Okanagan Symphony and, as such, we perform each concert cycle up and down the Valley. We perform in the Vernon Performing Arts Centre, which seats 750; we perform in Kelowna at the Community Theatre, which seats almost 900 people; and in Penticton at the Cleland Theatre seating 450. We perform as far north as Salmon Arm and as far south as Oliver and Osoyoos.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13034 We are very much an institution in the Valley. About 80 per cent of our musicians live and work in the Valley. They work as musicians in the orchestra, of course, in our 19 concerts each year and that is excluding our educational program.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13035 The other 20 per cent, we fly in from Edmonton, Calgary and Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13036 The needs of our educational program are significantly different from those of our regular concert program. A concert cycle costs us in excess of $85,000, and we perform generally three nights and have three or four days of rehearsals. This covers hall rental, ticket fees, advertising and promotion, payments to our musicians, including expenses and series fees. We are covered under a union agreement, as well as guest artist fees, stage management, truck rental and so forth.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13037 The educational program, on the other hand, the shows tend to be a bit shorter because of attention span. So, rather than two and a half hours with an intermission, our educational shows generally run about 45 minutes. These programs reach children from the ages of seven to 15.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13038 These programs are run in theatres. They are run with work books which the children receive in the late fall, and the programs are run in the spring after the school teachers have had a chance to work with their children.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13039 This is only one aspect of our educational program. It has several other arms. We send our professional musicians into the schools to work with bands, music groups, choirs and to do special workshops.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13040 Last year we did a saxophone workshop at one of the middle schools in Kelowna and it was attended so well that we kept running it throughout the day and eventually had I think upwards of 200 to 300 students attending. Fortunately it was timed along with one of our concerts and we offered a special to teachers and staff and parents. So, we had a grand turnout that night at the concert in Kelowna.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13041 Other parts of our educational program, which CJVR was particularly interested in, was the programming that we are developing to reach middle adults, I would call middle adults 35 to 45 or 50 years of age, and then the older demographic ranging from, let's say, 55 up.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13042 Individuals in the Okanagan Valley appear to keep going right through.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13043 We have players in our community orchestras who are well into their seventies and eighties. We have attendees at our concerts who get there one way or the other and have been attending for many, many years. Lots of these individuals call us. They want to find out more about the music. They come to our pre‑concert lectures. They come to our post‑concert Q and A session which is called After Thoughts, and we are this year developing a program for taking adults into musicians' workshops where the musicians are building cellos, building harpsichords, working on violins, writing music, composing, building guitars and essentially broadening the depth and understanding of our community for classical music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13044 This all costs money. Our budget, although we are the third largest orchestra in British Columbia, is just under three‑quarters of a million dollars a year. This certainly pales in comparison to the Vancouver Symphony budget of around $15 million a year. Their educational program is well funded and funded primarily through their endowments. We launched an endowment last year which we hope in the next ten years will begin to fully fund some of our new series such as our workshop programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13045 Another way that we reach into the community with information is through interviews, and we have found in past years that interviews with our music director and our guest artists on the radio have appeared to be an excellent way to reach our demographic. They take questions from the interviewer; they play bits of the music that is going to be performed at the upcoming concert and we also send musicians and young musicians into the radio studios.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13046 CJVR has very wisely, I think, incorporated this kind of a component in what they call their indirect funding initiative. Their direct funding initiative I thought was wisely drawn. It grows over a period of seven years from a rather small component in year one to a much larger component by year seven and, in fact, would total over $100,000 total by the end of year seven.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13047 This is money that would help us offset the cost to our children for the educational program. We do have children from home schoolers to the public schools who are not able to attend the concerts because there is no funding. We currently apply for grants to help offset the cost of the educational concerts, but the grant funding falls woefully below the actual costs to the orchestra of presenting these concerts.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13048 Currently we are performing the school and the educational program on what I would call a deficit basis. We are trying to find funding from sources that in fact are not included in our budget. But education is hugely important to us and we are committed to finding ways of keeping these programs going.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13049 I have talked a lot about the orchestra because I know a lot more about symphony orchestra management than I do about radio licences. So I don't present myself as any sort of an expert on CJVR. I can say our audience for our regular concert season totals about 13,000 throughout the Valley for the school program, up to 8,000, and the potential for growth, as this Valley continues to grow, with our audience catchment area being around 250,000, I think is limited certainly but there is a lot of room for growth and for success.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13050 I would be delighted to take any questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13051 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Miller, thank you. I just have a couple of questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13052 You talked about the funding for the orchestra obviously, and the basis for your support of CJVR is that part of it is what we call Canadian Content Development spending will be directed to your orchestra.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13053 MS MILLER: Uh‑hmm.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13054 THE CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned that you are applying for grants as one of your sources of funding.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13055 What are your other sources? Do you have sponsorship?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13056 MS MILLER: For the educational component we do apply for grants to the Cherniesky Foundation, as well as our overall program is funded approximately 30 per cent from ticket sales, 30 per cent from major funders, which would be federal government, Canada Council, provincial government, Gaming, B.C. Arts and municipal governments, North Okanagan Regional District, city of Kelowna, city of Penticton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13057 For the educational program, the funding scenario is not quite so black and white, and the other 30 per cent that I didn't mention comes from private donations, sponsorships.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13058 So, while we are proceeding to look for sponsorship for the educational program, there is a lot of competition for those funds, and I would say at this point that even if we pursue private sponsorships for that, because the Okanagan Valley is not a centre of head offices, it is very difficult and the retailers and the businesses here do tend to be asked perhaps out of proportion to their ability to sponsor and to donate. That impacts all arts organizations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13059 THE CHAIRPERSON: And the 30 per cent, let's call it the public funding from Heritage, et cetera, is that guaranteed for a long term or do you have to negotiate that year after year?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13060 MS MILLER: Every year. Every year it is an application, every year it is an unknown. It makes budgeting very dramatically challenging.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13061 We do always ask for a small increase based on our needs, but public funding is limited as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13062 THE CHAIRPERSON: The educational programs, I ask this only because you come to us as the symphony orchestra and the format for which CJVR has applied does not necessarily lend itself the symphonic music, but it is your position that it is through the educational programs that the students don't necessarily have to end up participating in the symphony or working in the symphony but could branch out into other forms of music?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13063 MS MILLER: I guess it is our belief that young people, and really people of any age, but if you can start with young people and move them into a concert hall or into any opportunity for them to see live music, feel, experience live music, it really is a transforming experience and especially, I think, for generations who are increasingly brought up with the perfect sound of a recording, a CD, a DVD, where the music and the imagines perhaps have been manipulated and re‑manipulated to a state of perfection that is seldom achieved at a concert hall.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13064 It is marvellous to watch. The enthusiasm of the young children and particularly the very young ones as they sit in the chair and they realize that these sounds they have been hearing on television or radio are actually being made by human beings on a stage 20, 30, 50 feet away from them with instruments that many of them haven't even seen before, and I am talking about the much younger ones.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13065 For the older students who are in a band or an orchestra program they are, I think, encouraged and in some cases slightly overwhelmed by how well it is possible to play one of these instruments that they are struggling with or struggling with the flute or saxophone or the trombone or the trumpet in the school band and they realize that on stage in front of them is someone who is playing with great fluency.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13066 The transforming experience of being in concert hall with live music is one that can enhance any individual's life at any age, and to turn on the radio and hear Blended Country or to hear New Age music or Rock or Pop, so many Eric Clapton, so many musicians, Ian Tyson have classical trained music backgrounds. That is where they started. The hard work of learning to read music, learning an instrument, learning what it is like to be in a band.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13067 I can tell you that two of the applicants who appeared before you for the CJVR application, one was a trombonist for four or five years in his high school youth symphony, another was a trumpet player who has then appeared on stage with the Saskatoon Symphony Orchestra playing Tympany. It is not a black and white world out there and music and music education should be available to anyone at all levels and all forms.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13068 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for your participation here, Ms Miller.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13069 MS MILLER: Thank you for listening to me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13070 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13071 Madam Secretary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13072 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13073 I would now call the Minstrel Cafe and Bar, Danny McBride, Phil McGrew and Sheila, Rachel and Alisha MacGregor to come up to the presentation table.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13074 Minstrel Cafe and Bar, Danny McBride, Phil McGrew and Sheila, Rachel and Alisha MacGregor will appear as a panel to present their interventions. We will start with Minstrel Cafe and Bar.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13075 Please introduce yourself, and you will have ten minutes for your presentation.
INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION
LISTNUM 1 \l 13076 MR. ANDERSON: Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13077 My name is Clare Anderson. I am an operating partner at the Minstrel Cafe. Prior to that I was an operating partner at the Sidetrack Cafe in Edmonton, Alberta, where for 15 years we presented one of the strongest live musical formats in the country seven nights a week. Eight years ago I arrived in Kelowna and welcomed the opportunity to develop a restaurant live entertainment venue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13078 One of the challenges in doing so is finding the proper mediums to expose music and entertainment, entertainers, performers to its populace. As Kelowna has grown exponentially, I don't feel that the radio medium has caught up or is providing the same opportunity that larger centres, more developed centres have the ability or servicing other areas.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13079 Deep Waters' application is exciting in that it allows an operator such as myself an opportunity to work with an independent station and help support to a greater extent the entertainers that tour across the country.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13080 By example, one of the most profiled recognition of Canadian artists is the Juno Awards, and it is not even so much about the winners, it is about if you break it down to the different genres, the nominees in each category, right there you have a core of 150 musical artists that are very worthy; they take their craft seriously; it is their life; they go about it for the right reasons.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13081 There is musical integrity. It is a challenge to find the radio stations that are committed to exposing it to the populace, to the listening audience. What is formatted now is so often not about musical integrity. I think the stations know what they are doing and why they are limited, but, again, you have to hope that there can be a difference made.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13082 Again, you get artists that they are not glorified karaoke singers or winning idol competitions; they are no sort of over blown celebrities. They are the heart, the roots of what music should be in this country. We play a small part by trying to facilitate their performances here and, in terms of understanding that, it is sorely missed that people can't just turn on the radio and listen to these performers and particularly it is exciting at the ground breaking level when they are just beginning to get recognized and develop their craft.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13083 This is a lifetime for them. I mean, you get young performers in their teens and they go on and they become elder states men in their fifties sixties, that is still their life, that is what they are doing; we see them at every stage of their life through that. It is very rewarding when you get the response and that interaction on a full house.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13084 I just find it very limiting in terms of Kelowna and the Okanagan in general in terms of the perception of what radio, what musical content should be. Again, that is why I am here in support of Deep Waters' application because there needs to be a difference and something that is receptive to what exists now a days.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13085 Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13086 THE SECRETARY: We will now proceed with Mr. Danny Mcbride. You have 10 minutes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13087 MR. McBRIDE: My name is Danny McBride. I have lived in Kelowna for nine years. I am a native of Toronto, but I have also lived in Vancouver, Los Angeles and London, England. I am a record producer, a composer. I am was once a CBS recording artist.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13088 I have been in the entertainment business for over 35 years and have been fortunate enough to have worked with some of the greatest names in the industry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13089 As a recording artist, I have released two solo records, one with CBS New York and the other with CBS in the UK. As a co‑producer, recording artist and session player, I have had the incredible opportunity of working hand‑in‑hand with 12 of the most sought after producers in the world. To name a few: Daniel Lanois, who produced U2, Peter Gabriel, Rupert Hine who produced Tina Turner, Keith Smith who produced Sting, Jack Richardson, a Canadian icon, Jack produced the Guess Who, Pink Floyd, Peter Gabriel and Bob Seger and finally Bob Johnson.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13090 Bob Johnson produced several artists including Simon and Garfunkel, Bob Dylan, Johnny Cash and Willy Nelson. Bob is probably the most amazing person I have ever worked with. Besides being a legend and maybe the greatest producer in America, he was like a brother and a father to me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13091 I also spent 15 years travelling the world as Chris de Burgh's lead guitarist and was instrumental in helping Chris sell upwards to 47 million records world wide ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 13092 Starting out in the business in Toronto during the early sixties was quite a challenge. I was in my early teens and a high school drop out. I thought if I did one more crazy thing my parents would hire a hit man and have me whacked.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13093 But as luck would have it, my group at the times, Transfusion, became the house band in a music venue called the Rock Pile. The Rock Pile was quite a place, and at age 17 I found myself opening for groups like Led Zeppelin, Blood Sweat and Tear and Rod Stewart and so on. The manager of the Rock Pile soon became my manager. He also became the biggest promoter in Canada, bringing in acts like The Doors, Jimmy Hendrix, John Lennon and others. It was a wonderful, yet somewhat cruel time because many of the most talented people I knew never got a break and I believe that was because there were no programs out there like the Rising Star Initiative to support them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13094 It basically came down to the luck of the draw. My manager eventually got me a deal as a solo artist with CBS and by the time I was 20 I was in the UK working on my first album, which I am positive by now has been turned into so many frisbees.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13095 My brother Bob McBride, also an entertainer, was a lead singer in a Juno Awards winner group Lighthouse.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13096 My intention today is not to sound pretentious, but I am rather hoping to establish the kind of credibility and support that will support my opinions and belief with regards to the Deep Waters media petition.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13097 I believe Kelowna is missing a radio station that appeals to a slightly more urban, sophisticated listening audience. Kelowna is growing and evolving at a tremendous rate and is attracting people from all over Canada, the U.S. and abroad. The city is rapidly developing the desire for cultural change and diversification in many areas, including radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13098 Every time I throw a dinner party I find myself running to my CD collection looking for something that is easy and enjoyable to listen to. That is exactly what I think we will get when we tune into this new and innovative station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13099 Most importantly is Deep Waters' focus and commitment to home grown talent which is shown not only by their promise to dedicate 40 per cent airplay entirely to Canadian content but by their contribution to close and upwards to $600,000 to the local music scene.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13100 The Rising Staff Initiative in itself is a milestone and I would believe will further the careers of many emerging local artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13101 I have been totally overwhelmed with the amount of talent that exists in the Okanagan. It is absolutely remarkable, and sitting to my right, one of the MacGregors, is a prime example of what I am talking about.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13102 I believe that with a little encouragement in the form of a financial kick start and professional guidance in the form of record production and radio airplay that we will soon see many Okanagan performers at the top of the charts.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13103 I am a partner in a production company called ZMS Music. We have created a state‑of‑the‑art recording studio here in Kelowna primarily because of the potential we see in local artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13104 I know that on a production level, ZMS would be honoured and thrilled to become involved with the Rising Star Initiative to help provide the guidance, the support and the professionalism needed to ensure that the music produced would be of the highest quality. Although ZMS is a new company, we have connections throughout the industry and world wide, including major labels and some of the biggest promoters in the business.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13105 When I first started out in this business there was no one helping us get our music played on the radio, let alone paying us to get it out there. So I think it is time we created a platform for young deserving artists like the MacGregors so they can show the rest of Canada, and maybe the world, just what they've got.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13106 Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13107 THE SECRETARY: We will now proceed with Mr. Phil McGrew.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13108 You have ten minutes for your presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13109 MR. McGREW: Thank you. Good morning, Madam Chairman and members of the Commission.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13110 You do have a letter on file from my daughter, Bonnie, and her singing partner, Kelsy Ny. Like many struggling artists, they are both working and going to UBC this morning so were unable to be here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13111 It was many years ago, but my first career I was in the radio business for about five or six years, and while my experience in radio is somewhat limited, I must say I was very excited and impressed when I read the application by Deep Waters.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13112 The deep Waters application demonstrates support for local talent, a strong support for emerging artists by playing a heavy percentage of these artists, whether you are in my let's call it the somewhere around 50 demographic or whether you are in my daughter's 19‑20 demographic, how long have we longed for a station that did not play the same superstar Canadian artists over and over just to adhere to the Canadian content? And the 40 per cent of the 40 per cent dedicated to emerging artists is refreshing and a great alternative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13113 Deep Waters also demonstrates strong financial support to the local music scene through the Rising Star Initiative, and that is what I would like to focus on this morning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13114 Four artists each year would receive $10,000 towards creation of a CD and, more importantly, would receive regular airplay and heavy promotion. This is an invaluable service, as I can attest to firsthand. For a few years I have been helping to manage this young band and I know all too well how difficult and how expensive it is to complete a properly produced CD, but as well, how even more difficult it is to promote that CD and to receive airplay once you have it in your hands.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13115 By way of background, the band I have been involved with, they won the Okanagan Grown Contest. They have received some limited airplay, thanks to SUN‑FM and to the CBC. Their first CD received very positive reviews, sold almost 1,000 copies through Canada and even other parts of the world.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13116 They have appeared at the New Music West showcase. They have shared the stage with Juno winners, Greg Siebel and Fefe Dobson.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13117 But without ongoing promotion, airplay and distribution, it is hard to maintain momentum, even harder to get discovered, as they say.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13118 Young artists who wish to make music a career constantly struggle with these issues. The Rising Star program will certainly help some of the better ones to hopefully break through, and I suspect will have a real impact on the careers of these young artists, local artists. Also, quite impressed with the way the Rising Star program has been structured. So, rather than writing a cheque to the artist, Deep Waters has arranged for proper recording facilities, renowned producers with experience and connection in the industry, such as Mr. McBride and a mechanism to help promote and provide airplay for these artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13119 So, obviously Deep Waters also has the experience and resources to be of real assistance to the artists.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13120 With any luck, a great song or a great group that is discovered in Kelowna may soon receive airplay on other JACK‑FM formats throughout the country.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13121 The artist can also gain additional exposure by participating in some of the many local festivals and events of which this station would be an integral part.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13122 I also would like to make a word on FACTOR if I could. I know that FACTOR does do admirable work, but I believe it falls short of helping the independent or undiscovered artist. Many of the FACTOR grants go to established artists or to record labels. Once an artist is already represented by a record label, they already have some notoriety and a leg up. This is where I see in my experience a large, yet unnoticed, void in the development of Canadian artists. It is a level that I call close to but just below FACTOR.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13123 I am sure you have heard this complaint before.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13124 These artists have some recognition. They get great reviews. They have great potential, but they are needing help with their radio airplay, publicity and eventually management and distribution.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13125 In short, I believe the Rising Star program as established by Deep Waters to be innovative, unique and I think it has huge potential. Yet, this is obviously only one facet of a very thorough programming plan by Deep Waters.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13126 Thank you for your time and I would be happy to answer any questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13127 THE SECRETARY: We will now proceed with Ms MacGregor.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13128 Ms MacGregor, please state your first name for the record, and you will then have ten minutes for your presentation. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13129 MS. RACHEL MacGREGOR: My name is Rachel MacGregor. Sheila and Alisha aren't with me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13130 I am really happy to be here. I am part of a group called the MacGregors which is a music duo with my sister, who is in school today.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13131 The MacGregors have released two CDs up to date. We are working on our third right now, and I will give a bit of an overview of some of the things that we have done.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13132 We have had a lot of our success in songwriting. A couple of examples, the International Songwriting Competition, my sister and I have both been winners in it. I won the teen category in 2003, with my sister being a semi‑finalist that year. And two years later my sister won and I was third.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13133 One of the prizes that is given out as being a winner in the teen category is a full scholarship to the Berkley College of Music in Boston for their summer performance program. So my sister and I both had the privilege of going there for a summer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13134 My sister entered another songwriting competition while she was there and won that and is able to go to Berkley for another summer program on another full scholarship.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13135 She was also a finalist in the uni‑song songwriting competition, and I was a finalist in the John Lennon songwriting competition, both of which are international songwriting competitions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13136 Through the John Lennon songwriting competition, we got the opportunity to go perform at NAAM in Anaheim last January. If you are unfamiliar with NAAM, it is a huge music convention; over 20,000 people all in the music industry, huge names there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13137 Our big story from there is my sister was walking down the stairs and Stevie Wonder grabbed her hand as he was walking down the stairs. He didn't realize who she was, but that was the type of people you were rubbing shoulders with the whole time, which is absolutely amazing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13138 We have also been to Canadian Music Week in Toronto and Music West a couple of times in Vancouver. We just came back last week from a two‑month tour of Europe where we kind of performed all over at schools and community events and coffee shops and stuff like that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13139 I am just going to kind of talk a bit about the struggles of being an emerging artist in Canada. It is tough to get on the radio and even tougher once you have even got a couple of spins on the radio to get anything from that. It is a huge financial commitment to get anything on the radio. We know people who have put a ton of money into hiring radio tractors and doing the whole radio thing, but you don't get a lot of return from it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13140 It would be great to have a radio station that really actually supported emerging artists and gave them more than the 3:00 a.m. slot Canadian content in the middle of the night. It would be really positive for us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13141 Also, our genre doesn't quite fit into the Country station and you have the Rock station and the Adult Contemporary and then your Top 40 station, which we would probably fit easier into the Top 40 station but because you are not Top 40 you don't get played on that station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13142 We also are kind of a multi‑genre because we do almost a bit folk and then sometimes it is a bit pop rock and we also add a bit of celtic influence as well because we started as a celtic fiddle group back when we were ten years old. We keep the violin aspect in it as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13143 With that, we talked with some radio stations and they have a hard time finding a spot for us because we have all of these multi‑genre things going on that don't quite make us fit into your very specific focused group.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13144 So, Deep Waters is great because it is playing music that isn't on the conventional radio right now and it is different music and it is stuff that I think people really want to listen to. It gives a chance for artists like us to have a spot to play our music because we do have success in some things with songwriting and stuff like that and you know that you are pretty good at what you are doing but no one ever gets to hear it because there is not really a spot in your specific radio stations right now for it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13145 So, that makes us quite excited about Deep Waters.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13146 Also, the Rising Star Initiative is really great for emerging artist support because it is imperative to have a quality product. Your music recorded well so you can compete with other artists out there, but it is a huge financial investment. When you are not making any money as an emerging artist really, it is tough to be able to constantly be pouring money into it when you don't have all that money to pour into it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13147 So, the financial support, as well as the promotional support of the Rising Star Initiative would be a great ‑‑ the Okanagan is full of musicians that could be great because they are amazing. Actually, it is ridiculous when you go into the Okanagan Music Awards just how many emerging artists we have in the Okanagan Valley here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13148 I think there is a real need for it and there is a real need for a radio station that plays stuff that is not already out there right now on the radio in Kelowna.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13149 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13150 Commissioner Morin, do you have any questions?
LISTNUM 1 \l 13151 &nb