TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

                       SUBJECT/SUJET:

Various broadcasting applications further to calls for

applications for broadcasting licences to carry on radio programming undertakings to serve Owen Sound, Windsor and Peterborough, Ontario /

Plusieurs demandes en radiodiffusion suite aux appels de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'entreprises de programmation de radio pour desservir Owen Sound, Windsor et Peterborough (Ontario)

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

Rooms B, C & D                    Salons B, C et D

Delta Hotel London Armouries      Hôtel Delta London Armouries

325 Dundas Street                 325, rue Dundas

London, Ontario                   London (Ontario)

December 12, 2007                 Le 12 décembre 2007

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

                 Transcript / Transcription

Various broadcasting applications further to calls for

applications for broadcasting licences to carry on radio programming undertakings to serve Owen Sound, Windsor and Peterborough, Ontario /

Plusieurs demandes en radiodiffusion suite aux appels de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'entreprises de programmation de radio pour desservir Owen Sound, Windsor et Peterborough (Ontario)

BEFORE / DEVANT:

Rita Cugini                       Chairperson / Présidente

Peter Menzies                     Commissioner / Conseiller

Helen del Val                     Commissioner / Conseillère

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Cindy Ventura                     Secretary / Secrétaire

Joe Aguiar                        Hearing Manager /

                                  Gérant de l'audience

Kelly-Anne Smith                  Legal Counsel /

                                  Conseillère juridique

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

Rooms B C D                       Salons B C D

Delta Hotel London Armouries      Hôtel Delta London Armouries

325 Dundas Street                 325, rue Dundas

London, Ontario                   London (Ontario)

December 12, 2007                 Le 12 décembre 2007

- iv -

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

                                                 PAGE / PARA

PHASE I

PRÉSENTATION PAR / PRESENTATION BY:

Newcap Inc.                                       577 / 3466

Larche Communications Inc.                        626 / 3754

Pineridge Broadcasting Inc.                       658 / 3968

K-Rock 1057 Inc.                                  719 / 4349

Evanov Communications Inc.                        773 / 4712

Frank Torres (OBCI)                               823 / 5051

                   London, Ontario / London (Ontario)

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Wednesday, December 12, 2007

    at 0900 / L'audience débute le mercredi

    12 décembre 2007 à 0900

LISTNUM 1 \l 1 \s 34613461             THE SECRETARY:  Good morning and welcome to day three of the public hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13462             We will now proceed with item 8, which is an application by Newcap Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Peterborough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13463             The new station would operate on frequency 96.7 MHz (channel 244B) with an average effective radiated power of 17,000 watts (maximum effective radiated power of 50,000 watts/antenna height of 96.8 metres).

LISTNUM 1 \l 13464             Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Rob Steele.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13465             Please introduce your colleagues and you will have 20 minutes for your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13466             MR. STEELE:  Good morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13467             My name is Rob Steele, President and Chief Executive Officer of Newcap Radio, and joining me today are David Murray, Chief Operating Officer for Newcap Radio; Glenda Spenrath, Director of Newcap Operations; Steve Jones, Vice‑President of Programming; Josie Geuer, Program Director of Ottawa's Hot 89.9 and on the end, Scott Broderick, Director of Ontario Operations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13468             Madam Chair, members of the Commission, Commission staff, we are very pleased to be presenting this application for a new FM radio station to serve Peterborough, Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13469             Peterborough is a thriving city whose residents enjoy lifestyle and economy fuelled by local manufacturing and recreation.  Quaker Oats and General Electric maintain large operations in the city and from canoe building in the 1850s to today's status as a gateway to the Kawarthas, Peterborough has always had a special link to the outdoors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13470             Peterborough's proximity to Toronto means that its residents readily receive a number of Toronto radio stations but, like Canadians everywhere, given the right choices residents of the city will naturally prefer local radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13471             Our research suggests a clear interest on the part of Peterborough residents for more local radio and greater format choice.  According to BBM numbers, more than 40 percent of hours tuned in Peterborough currently go to stations licensed to other markets.  Licensing a new entrant like Newcap will not only help repatriate such tuning but will strengthen local radio and its ability to successfully compete in the future.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13472             We believe that we have a strong application both because of our specific plans for serving Peterborough and because of what Newcap as a company can bring to the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13473             First, our local radio professionals always have the creative freedom to make the programming decisions that will best serve their local audiences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13474             Second, we remain equally committed to growth in smaller and larger markets in Canada and we provide the research, resources and expertise needed to make it possible.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13475             And third, we make a difference by actively supporting local community organizations including hospitals, food banks and children's charities.  Talent, growth and community are what we are all about.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13476             Newcap owns and operates radio licences across Canada but unlike Canada's large radio companies, most of our stations are in small and medium‑sized markets.  But we are committed to serving diverse communities across this country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13477             I would now like Steve Jones, our Vice‑President of Programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13478             MR. JONES:  Newcap is proposing a Gold Based AC station for Peterborough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13479             Adult Contemporary or AC as the format is known, is one of the most widely‑programmed formats in Canada.  AC provides a non‑intrusive and familiar sound that appeals very strongly to the 25‑54 demographic, particularly with female listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13480             Our selection of Gold Based AC came from our analysis of the existing formats in the market and an evaluation of the viability of nine different formats as diverse as Modern Rock and Country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13481             The research initially uncovered two potential format opportunities in Peterborough, CHR and Adult Contemporary.  Our research was confirmed and our choice made when shortly after CTVglobemedia converted CKPT from AM to FM and launched Energy 99.3 in the CHR format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13482             We project a 10 percent share 18‑64 for a Gold Based AC format in Peterborough.  We propose 35 percent Canadian content distributed equally throughout the broadcast day as the most appropriate level for this format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13483             Gold Based AC is a natural complement to the existing FM stations in Peterborough of Rock, Country and CHR.  Soft AC, Sixties and Seventies, Oldies and Classic hits are the primary components of a Gold Based AC station.  These sub‑formats are familiar to Newcap as we operate stations in each of them, and our research shows that all would be in demand in Peterborough.  Combined together in Gold Based AC they provide us with the best opportunity to add music diversity to the market and avoid the playlists of the incumbents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13484             96.7 The River will focus on timeless music by artists such as Elton John, Sheryl Crow, Guess Who, The Beatles, Fleetwood Mac, Céline Dion, Bryan Adams, Phil Collins and many others.  The music will be softer, older and more familiar than that of other available stations.  Our listeners would expect to turn on 96.7 The River and hear songs they grew up with and have come to identify as the music of their generation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13485             Although 96.7 The River will be rooted in the music of the past our playlist will not be entirely old.  Today there is a strong crop of established and emerging stars such as Michael Bublé, Jann Arden, Nora Jones and John Mayer who are making exciting, fresh contemporary soft music.  This rejuvenated new AC format combined with the music of the sixties, seventies and eighties is just right for Peterborough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13486             96.7 The River will appeal to a core audience that is 65 percent female in the 35 to 44 demographic.  At 40, the median age of our typical listener will reflect that of Peterborough itself.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13487             Not surprisingly, the other nine incumbent applicants in this hearing are all proposing either variations or elements of the Gold Based AC format.  What sets Newcap apart is its ongoing ability to research and execute that choice to adapt and compete effectively with strong incumbents and to provide Peterborough with a strong local news and information programming that it deserves.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13488             MS GEUER:  Our research demonstrated that there is a strong interest in news that is specific to Peterborough as well as to its status as an outdoor recreation destination.  Our format will be flexible enough to permit frequent news flashes keeping our listeners up to date with timely capsules.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13489             96.7 The River will significantly increase the diversity and availability of local news and information programming.  We will provide 79 newscasts throughout the week, including weekends, all sourced and presented locally.  The station's news director will supervise a team of two journalist announcers in Peterborough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13490             In addition to the local news team focusing on Peterborough news, the station will benefit from Newcap's existing news resources in Ontario and across Canada.  We will offer our listeners 75 percent local and regional content in all newscasts with the remaining 25 percent being relevant news and information from other parts of Ontario, Canada and the rest of the world.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13491             Major hourly newscasts will run approximately five minutes inclusive of sports and weather, which together with half‑hourly updates will provide a total of over six hours of news content weekly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13492             Frequent unscheduled updates on breaking news, weather, traffic and road conditions together with music and other commentary will bring our minimum total spoken word to 17 hours per week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13493             Beyond the numbers, though, 96.7 The River will commit to gearing its news and information programming specifically to Peterborough City and County.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13494             Being so close to a major city like Toronto often a community such as Peterborough can find itself overwhelmed by the bigger city.  Combating that means things like paying special attention to providing listeners with daily updates and scores from area high school and university leagues and games.  It means Pause for a Cause, an hourly feature profiling community groups, non‑profit events and other causes that are relevant to the local community.  And it means little things like visiting rinks with coffee and hot chocolate in the winter and stopping at the ball fields with water and pop in the summer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13495             Other program features on 96.7 The River will include Change the World.  One listener gets the opportunity to explain what they would do to make life better in Peterborough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13496             Voices from Peterborough is a very unique concept to commercial radio.  This will be brought to life on 96.7 The River.  Half an hour on this station will be handed over to the personalities that make up the fine city, from politicians to poets, nurses to school teachers.  Then we have River Requests.  Every day listeners will have the chance to hear their requests on the air over the lunch hour.  Listeners will be able to call, email or text message their request to the 96.7 The River studios.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13497             96.7 The River will also have an online presence that will go beyond the typical radio station website including a detailed and updated interactive community events calendar, Peterborough Picks; up to the minute local news direct from our newsroom and a local sports scoreboard featuring minor hockey, little league and school sports events.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13498             MS SPENRATH:  Our commitment to commitment to community reflection on 96.7 The River will stem from a systematic approach to employment equity and include the three basic tenets of cultural diversity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13499             First is our programming.  Both our news and non‑news programming will reflect the cultural diversity of our audience.  News stories will reflect the reality of Peterborough's cultural, ethnic, racial and aboriginal diversity.  Our other spoken word will contain elements that appeal to our ethnic and aboriginal audience.  In our River Requests feature we will appeal to our diverse audience to tell us what they want and we will listen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13500             Second is our on air personalities.  Our announcers and reporters will be representative of the ethnic mosaic that makes up Peterborough.  Our culturally‑diverse audience will enjoy an association with the people delivering their daily entertainment and information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13501             And third is our workforce.  Both on and off the air our staff will be representative of the demographics of the community we serve.  Our staff will be well versed in corporate policies designed to support cultural diversity in the workplace and the reflection of the diverse groups in our programming.  Our goal will be to connect with the parents, network with the organizers and establish roots in the community.  Consistent with Newcap's long tradition of providing intensely local service, this new station will make a difference to the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13502             Our Canadian content development plan is specifically designed to develop and expose emerging artists from the Peterborough area and Ontario.  We have proposed by far the highest value package of Canadian content development among applicants, totalling $1,015,000 over the term of the licence with spending of the licence with spending of $145,000 in each year of the licence term.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13503             $609,000 or $87,000 annually will go in financial support to FACTOR.  We will ask that FACTOR direct these funds toward artists and groups residing in Peterborough and Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13504             $406,000 will go to Peterborough's own Trent University which is $58,000 per year to help fund performance art programs, including such initiatives as scholarships and enhance aboriginal music theatre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13505             Trent University is an exceptional post‑secondary academic institution based in Peterborough and we are delighted that they have agreed to work with us to develop and implement CCD programs that will make a difference to this community.  Trent University was the first university in Canada to launch a native studies program in 1971 and is the only university in Canada to have a cultural studies program as a separate autonomous unit complete with a doctoral program, the focus of which is performance arts and the role of music and theatre and shaping culture.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13506             MR. BRODERICK:  Ensuring new licensees do not have an undue impact on incumbents is an important objective of the Commission's licensing process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13507             That said, in this hearing, we think that ensuring any new entrant has a reasonable chance of competing with the incumbents is also important.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13508             The four popular commercial radio stations in Peterborough are currently owned by Corus and CTVglobemedia.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13509             While CTVglobemedia's two FM stations may, theoretically, give them a slight edge over Corus' AM/FM combo, in reality the two companies are virtually neck‑and‑neck in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13510             By contrast, any new entrant will be one station up against incumbent operators with two stations each, stations that have better frequencies, better coverage, and enormous corporate resources behind them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13511             Additionally, we recognize that fully 40 percent of the radio tuning in Peterborough currently comes from outside radio stations, most notably the Toronto marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13512             Two of the top four 25 to 54 stations in Toronto are CHFI‑FM and EZ Rock.  Based on the similarity of their playlists, the biggest opportunity for 96.7 The River will come from these Toronto radio stations, owned by Rogers and Astral, respectively.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13513             Coupled with the local multimedia competition from CTVglobemedia and Corus, and Quebecor's recent purchase of the Peterborough Examiner, the Peterborough media landscape truly is the land of the giants.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13514             Competing with these major players won't be easy, but we believe that Newcap and 96.7 The River are up for that competitive challenge.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13515             MR. MURRAY:  Madam Chair and Members of the Commission, like most markets in Canada, Peterborough is a healthy market that can only benefit from the licensing of new entrants.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13516             The current competitive landscape is made up of large, experienced broadcasters, namely, CTVglobemedia and Corus in Peterborough, and Astral and Rogers out of Toronto.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13517             This will make Peterborough a challenging market to succeed in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13518             We also believe that, over time, with competition from a range of new wireless, local, audio media, the environment will only get tougher.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13519             We feel that we are well equipped to serve local audiences in Peterborough in just such a market.  We believe that our application strikes the right balance for Peterborough now and into the future.  Newcap has the resources and commitment to build for the long term, and that would certainly be the case here:  a strong business plan, based on deep resources, and our demonstrated expertise in bringing new formats to the market in exciting ways; a new format that presently is not available; a new editorial voice in the market; one of the highest commitments to local news and reflection; and the highest contribution to the development of Canadian content, more than $1 million over the next seven years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13520             We look forward to the opportunity to serve this market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13521             This concludes our presentation.  We welcome your questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13522             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Murray, Mr. Steele, and your colleagues.  Welcome to the hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13523             I will ask Commissioner Menzies to lead the questioning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13524             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Good morning.  Some of these questions are for the record.  Your presentation answered a few of them, but I just wanted to go through a few of them, and then give you an opportunity to expand on a few areas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13525             I need to confirm with you that you are committed to 6 hours, 7.5 minutes of news per week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13526             MR. MURRAY:  Yes, we are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13527             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Can you confirm that 75 percent of that will be local?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13528             MR. MURRAY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13529             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Maybe you could expand on the nature of your local news.  Will that match or duplicate other local breaking news, or will it be distinctive in some way?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13530             Why would I tune to your news as opposed to anybody else's news, or is your news in addition to your core?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13531             MR. JONES:  If I understand the question correctly, our news is designed to complement the service we provide, that being a gold‑based AC station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13532             We recognize that we are primarily a music‑driven entertainment service to our listeners, but being intensely local in our news is what will set us apart.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13533             We commit to 75 percent local news, and we recognize that the only way to be successful is to be local.  There are thousands of sources for what is going on overseas or in the U.S. or across Canada, but in your local market there are very few sources to find out what is going on around the corner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13534             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  If I understand correctly, obviously music is the core product, and the provision of news ensures that people don't have to switch the channel and tune in someplace else to find out what is going on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13535             Is that basically it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13536             MR. JONES:  Precisely, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13537             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  And you have two journalist announcers.  Typically, how would they work?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13538             Are they primarily in the station tracking news and giving updates, or do they get out and find things on their own?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13539             MR. JONES:  We have planned for three full‑time news staff, and I believe a part‑time staffer, as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13540             One would be a news director, two news journalist announcers, as you noted, and one part‑timer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13541             Their roles would be a combination of being in the station and being out of the station, but, for the most part, they would be in the station providing newscasts, as we have noted in our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13542             A lot of the collection of news and information these days is done electronically.  They would pick and choose the events they would be personally covering.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13543             A lot of what they would do would be contacting the newsmakers and those involved in the news, and providing our perspective on the stories.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13544             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Typically, where do you find the people to do that?  Do you find them locally, or other places?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13545             If you find them other places, what do you do to make sure they have a sense of the local nuances in terms of interests?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13546             MR. JONES:  In all cases, for all positions, it makes the most sense, generally, to hire locally.  If we can find on‑air people who understand the community already, they are that much further ahead.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13547             For those that we cannot hire locally and we need to bring in from elsewhere, we try to create a staff that provides mentorship and leadership.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13548             An example might be in Thunder Bay, Ontario, where our news director has been the news director in that market for probably 20 years.  When we bring new staff in, they mentor under his direction.  He is able to give them a pretty good perspective on the market.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 13549             MR. JONES:  We were just noting that the same case exists in Newfoundland, at our Heritage news talk station, VOCM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13550             Newfoundland is a unique market.  Sometimes it can be difficult to recruit people from the rest of Canada to come that far east.  Often, once they do, it is hard to convince them to leave.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 13551             MR. JONES:  It is an example of where a keen understanding of the market is essential to success, and we do that same kind of mentorship there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13552             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  Thanks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13553             What, precisely, is your minimum commitment to spoken word in addition to news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13554             I believe you answered that, but I would like you to expand on it a bit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13555             MS GEUER:  Thank you, Commissioner Menzies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13556             The spoken word will total, including news, 17 hours per week, which is about 13.5 percent.  That will involve features like "Change the World", "Voices of Peterborough", "Then and Now", "River Requests" ‑‑ I can go into a couple, if you are curious.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13557             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Yes, just some "for instances", and expand on those.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13558             MS GEUER:  Absolutely.  For instance, we have "Pause for a Cause", which will be a 60‑second produced feature that will run seven days a week, each hour.  It will profile community groups and non‑profit events in the Peterborough area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13559             For example, if 96.7 The River were broadcasting today, we might use "Pause for a Cause" to highlight the concert fundraiser that is happening this evening at Thomas A. Stewart High School at 7 p.m.  That is a fundraiser for the homeless.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13560             That is what we would use "Pause for a Cause" for, for example.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13561             Also, I mentioned in our opening remarks that we have something called "Voices of Peterborough", which we are hoping to launch on 96.7 The river.  This is a really unique concept.  It's a lot of fun, and it is something that we have never done in Ottawa, and I am actually considering it, because I think it is a really great idea.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13562             What we would do is, we would bring in a member of the community.  It might be a nurse from the regional hospital in Peterborough, or it could be one of 600 of their volunteers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13563             In this case, we would bring that person in, and they would get an announcer to sort of show them the ropes, and they would get to choose some music from our format that they enjoy, and then they would get a half‑hour show to talk about their life in Peterborough, and what interests them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13564             We would pre‑record that and pre‑package it and air it, most likely, on a Sunday afternoon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13565             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  And what type of people?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13566             MS GEUER:  They could be teachers, coaches.  It could be a city worker, it could be a poet, an artist ‑‑ anyone who listens, basically, to 96.7 The River would be welcome to come in and share a bit of their life with the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13567             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13568             How much of your commitment is live‑to‑air?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13569             Could you confirm that for me again?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13570             MR. JONES:  About 75 percent of our broadcast week would be live‑to‑air, and the remaining 25 percent would be locally originated voice tracking.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13571             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  So it would be 100 percent locally ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13572             MR. JONES:  Yes.  There may be opportunities here and there where it may make sense to carry a syndicated program of some sort, like most radio stations would when perhaps a certain artist is performing in Peterborough, and we can find a really good syndicated special that profiles their career.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13573             But in an average broadcast week, 100 percent of our content would originate locally.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13574             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  In your presentation you mention that there is some familiarity with the formats currently in place, and obviously, with the Toronto market, there is a lot of cross‑over.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13575             What are the things that you have in common ‑‑ and there will be a second half to this question ‑‑ format‑wise with the other applicants?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13576             MR. JONES:  Almost all of the other non‑incumbent applicants have proposed some form of similar AC format.  What differentiates us, as we look through the other applicants ‑‑ and I can't speak with a great deal of authority to their applications, but from what we have seen, our format is significantly older and based more on the music of the sixties and seventies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13577             We estimate that 50 percent of our playlist would be pre‑1980, whereas, from what we can tell at this point, most of the other applicants appear to be a little more in the eighties and today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13578             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  How does that give you an edge?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13579             MR. JONES:  We believe, from our research, that the greatest format opportunity is an AC format that is more broad, that encompasses music from as early as The Beatles' arrival in North America in the sixties, up until the softer hits of today and that gives us, we believe, the best ability to reach the biggest possible audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13580             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  Your ‑‑ I am sorry, I will just make sure I don't have you confused with anybody else.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13581             Your target audience ‑‑ I mean everybody talks about the 25‑54 but that is too big to make sense entirely.  But your target audience is mostly ‑‑ the median age?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13582             MR. JONES:  It is 40.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13583             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Forty?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13584             MR. JONES:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13585             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  And it is primarily female?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13586             MR. JONES:  We estimate 65 percent female.  And of that 25‑54 demographic, we plan to reach a core audience of 35‑44 female.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13587             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  And why is that important to you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13588             MR. JONES:  It is important because 25‑54 is the demographic that drives most radio advertising and you win ‑‑ there is a saying in radio that 25‑54 isn't a target, it is a family reunion.  So you narrow it down.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13589             It is a little bit like an archery target and if you want to win the big target you have to shoot for the bull's eye.  So our bull's eye would be that 35‑44 and by hitting that bull's eye well, we can win the bigger demographic of 25‑54.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13590             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  If you hit that bull's eye, how does it work for you commercially?  Like why would advertisers ‑‑ and you are going to need those ‑‑ why would they find that attractive?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13591             MR. JONES:  The 25‑44 ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13592             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Not that there is anything unattractive about 35‑44 year old women ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 13593             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  ‑‑ but what is commercially attractive about it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13594             MR. JONES:  I think Scott Broderick, our Director of Ontario Operations, is best to handle that question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13595             MR. BRODERICK:  I think it comes down to money.  It really does.  I think there is a perception among advertisers that in order to spend money you have to have money, and under 25 the belief is that you probably haven't accumulated enough wealth at this point in time to be interesting as a consumer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13596             And over 55 your buying patterns are probably pretty well established at that point and the advertising isn't what is going to drive your purchasing, it is more pre‑established loyalties and brand loyalties.  Once you are satisfied it is pretty tough to move you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13597             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  And why are women better than men as a commercial audience?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13598             MR. BRODERICK:  I hope I am not the first one to explain this to you but ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 13599             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  I know the answer, I just needed you to say it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13600             MR. BRODERICK:  A commonly held belief that women would control about 80 percent of spending in the marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13601             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Right, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13602             Your scholarship criteria, as you have laid it out, is specific ‑‑ or the Commission's scholarship criteria, sorry, is now specific to music and journalism students in terms of that, in other words, content that is specific to audio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13603             Is that outlet available through Trent for you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13604             MS SPENRATH:  Yes, it is.  We have had discussions with our representatives of Trent University and they have a very interesting and complete cultural program, and as part of that they have workshops and classes that specifically look at music and its role in culture, and so we have taken a look at the opportunity to provide scholarships that would work in that direction to promote the music part of the culture.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13605             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  If for some reason that doesn't become available at some point during the period of the licence or the Commission were to rule otherwise, how would you adjust?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13606             MS SPENRATH:  Well, I guess primarily ‑‑ first of all, we would try to keep to our commitment to Trent University because there are other opportunities there for us to provide funding in other areas.  They have the musical theatre for Aboriginal talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13607             So we would try in negotiations and discussions with Trent University to find other avenues that are eligible and I guess if that is not available then our other alternative would be to direct it towards FACTOR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13608             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  Technically your application's projected CCD expenses don't include a provision for the basic, although the overall is significant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13609             Can you just clarify this for the record, please?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13610             MS SPENRATH:  Yes.  What we have identified here is clearly over and above the basic CCD and the basic CCD we will make in addition to this amount that is promised.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13611             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay, thank you.  Your application ‑‑ as you have said, all your programming will be local.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13612             Are there synergies to your advantage in other areas?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13613             MR. JONES:  You mean as far as our ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13614             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Your other operations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13615             MR. JONES:  Yes.  They are few and far between.  They do exist and where appropriate we would certainly take advantage of them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13616             For example, across Atlantic Canada last week there was a major winter storm that kept power out in parts of Prince Edward Island for upwards of a week.  Our news operation in Prince Edward Island was able to share that with the rest of our Atlantic Canadian stations who were also very interested in that story.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13617             There may be programming cases ‑‑ as I mentioned earlier, if a certain artist is playing in Calgary on a cross‑Canada tour and we can interview him in Calgary and share that interview with Peterborough so that when the artist comes to that community we have a programming edge on our competitors, we would certainly take advantage of those.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13618             But as I mentioned, off the top those synergies are few and far between and are not really the foundation of our application, which is to be intensely local.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13619             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  You mentioned this in your presentation and touched on it quite confidently but I would like you to expand on it a bit more.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13620             If you get a licence in this market you will have CTV and Corus incumbents to deal with.  As you have noted, you will have Rogers and Astral to the south of you, and as you also noted, you have Quebecor with the Peterborough paper.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13621             That is a pretty tough company to compete with and I just want to give you the opportunity to expand briefly on why I need to believe you are tough enough to make it through that crowd.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13622             MR. MURRAY:  Right, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13623             Well, we compete with these large broadcasters in many of our markets, in Ottawa and in Calgary and in Edmonton, and we hold our own and do quite well.  I mean they are very good broadcasters and they do get a good share of the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13624             Now, I think, as Steve has said, the key to success in Peterborough is to be intensely local and to repatriate a lot of that 40 percent or ‑‑ we have heard different numbers depending on which BBM book you are looking at.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13625             But that 30‑40 percent of out‑of‑market tuning, once that is repatriated and we create an intensely local product, we will get our share of the audience and that is all you need to have.  You need to have that niche audience in our format and then we can ‑‑ Scott can sell it.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 13626             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay, thank you.  How many licences do you think this market can handle?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13627             MR. MURRAY:  We think that probably ‑‑ our business plan was based on the fact that you might approve two new licences for Peterborough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13628             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  I am not going to answer that question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13629             MR. MURRAY:  Which one?  Do you have anything in mind?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 13630             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  But is that what you think it can handle?  I mean if you think it can handle four, tell me.  If you think it can handle just one, tell me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13631             MR. MURRAY:  Right.  Well, I think the difficulty with more than two is that there is really only one reliable good frequency, 96.7.  As everybody has applied for and all of their engineering consultants have advised them, that is the plum frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13632             Every other frequency has some adjacency problems which could get ironed out but the reality is it is going to be ‑‑ you would get those at a much lower power and much lower coverage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13633             So a possible alternative ‑‑ it appeared from yesterday's hearing and from our analysis of our engineering information that 102.5 might be the best secondary frequency but it appears to only be applicable or acceptable off the Corus site.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13634             So I don't believe Corus has given anyone else permission to use their tower.  So probably 102.5 would only work for Corus.  So it might be acceptable in their flip but we think that the best use of 96.7 would be a new licence to bring some new people to ‑‑ new formats available to the public for Peterborough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13635             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay, thanks.  You spoke about the commitment to diversity and reflecting the ethnic community of Peterborough, et cetera.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13636             Can you give me some idea what Peterborough looks like demographically in terms of that, its cultural makeup and its ethnic makeup, et cetera?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13637             MS SPENRATH:  Yes.  With that market and with all the markets that we operate in we tend to look to Stats Canada as a standard for our research.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13638             It does have a small Aboriginal and ethnic population, not as much as the major metropolitan areas like Toronto or Montreal, but there is, according to the information that we have, just under 4 percent on the ethnic, and Aboriginal is close actually to the ethnic community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13639             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  Now, what would ‑‑ a couple of years from now if you were to launch in Peterborough and I were to walk down the street and ask people about you, how would they describe you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13640             MS SPENRATH:  I would say a big part of the fabric of the community and, you know, a welcome member.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13641             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  Anybody else?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13642             MR. JONES:  Just to expand a bit on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13643             From a programming point of view, I would like to have people recognize us, as Glenda noted, as being very much involved in the community, intensely local, a fun and entertaining radio station that is on top of what is going on in Peterborough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13644             And from a corporate perspective, I think we would like to be recognized as a contributing member of the corporate community and a positive influence on the business community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13645             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay, thanks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13646             Could you just expand a little bit on your revenue sources, just give me some examples of 40 per cent of first year revenues will derived from non‑radio advertisers, including new radio advertisers and advertisers in other media?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13647             As you mentioned, I don't think the guys at Quebecor are probably that interested in giving up the revenue that they have.  Can you expand a little bit on where that is going to come from and how you are going to get it and what trends there are in the market that make it possible?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13648             MR. MURRAY:  Sure.  I will ask Scott Broderick to expand on those percentages and give you an idea.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13649             But I will say first that, you know, through our experience and with operating in many markets of this size, like Moncton and Charlottetown and Fredericton, et cetera, we believe that our projections are quite conservative.  We have exceeded those projections in most of the markets where we have started up new licences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13650             And I will ask Scott to talk about the actual percentages and the clients, et cetera.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13651             MR. BRODERICK:  Sure thing.  I think, as you said, yes, I don't think Quebecor is anxious to be giving up anything.  But I think there is a trend.  I mean, radio revenues I think are up something like 25 per cent over the last five years, whereas newspaper revenues in terms of dailies are down something like 17 per cent.  So there is a trend and that has to do with circulation numbers I think overall.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13652             There is a scene from All the President's Men, and they kept saying follow the money, follow the money.  And in this case, that is what is going to happen here.  I think that it is most likely going to come from newspaper.  I think that the tuning that we repatriate into the marketplace is going to be very saleable to the local advertisers.  So whereas before there wasn't a local radio solution available demographically, they are going to find a really palatable and very cost‑effective solution.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13653             And the other thing is, and this is kind of an answer to your other question about, like how do we know that we can compete with these giants?  And it is because I think our sales approach is results‑based, it is not directly tied to ratings.  It is activity and account by account management.  And I think that when you look at our projections, by the end of our first quarter, we need approximately 10 clients active on the radio station on a weekly basis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13654             By the end of our first year each of our five representatives would need eight clients, each, active on the radio station on a weekly basis.  I think any sales manager, you know, here today would say that those are pretty reasonable expectations and it really comes from having a radio representative in front of a business person asking business questions and providing radio solutions.  And that is just going to naturally grow the radio revenues in the marketplace, so we are very confident.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13655             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Why does it work commercially for you and/or why is it culturally relevant, important, to repatriate listeners?  I know it is the term common usage, but repatriating people from a Toronto station to Peterborough, why does that matter?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13656             MR. BRODERICK:  Honestly, one of the things I often say to people is that we don't create spending in the marketplace, we move market share around.  People are going to, you know, spend their money where they choose.  We are able to introduce new clients, new opportunities to the listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13657             And if they are not listening to Peterborough radio stations, they are not going to be introduced to Peterborough businesses.  And I think repatriating those listeners on behalf of the business owners is a big part of the business plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13658             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  In your business plan your total revenue is 1.1 for the first year.  You seem to bite off a very large chunk right off the bat and then predict, well, I wouldn't call it modest, but not excessive growth after that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13659             MR. BRODERICK:  M'hmm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13660             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  How can you hit the market that hard and that fast and get that much revenue that quickly?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13661             MR. BRODERICK:  Again, I think that is what makes us a little bit different.  Because of our experience in the small and medium markets where ratings are much less part of the sales game, so we are used to selling without ratings.  In fact, depending upon when the station launches, we could be without ratings for quite a while.  So it is about transferring confidence and sitting down.  And, frankly, a good idea will work on any radio station, so we focus on ideas with our salespeople.  So that is why I think we will have more success early on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13662             But it is about activity management and it is about getting out, getting in front of people and asking questions.  So you are not going to necessarily make twice as many calls in your seventh year as in your first year.  Hopefully, with good sales management, you are going to make about the same because we are just going to be out there visiting, talking to people, providing solutions and getting results.  So it won't change dramatically over the term of the licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13663             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  I am interested in that, how you sell without ratings in terms of that.  And just to confirm what you indicate, is you are basically going to get in there and get yourself entrenched early.  And then most of the growth ‑‑ there is some increase in the client base, but it looks like a lot of it is a rate after that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13664             MR. BRODERICK:  Not necessarily.  I think that what happens is you have some success with clients early on and those stories become ‑‑ the results that you are getting for other clients become what you are really selling.  Saying, hey listen, we have had a tremendous amount of success, in particular maybe in the automotive category.  So I think those success stories become very marketable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13665             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  Yes?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13666             MR. MURRAY:  Yes, if I could add just something and I will just hand it back to Scott.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13667             An example of that is that we were recently approved for an AM/FM conversion for Carbonear, Newfoundland.  And this year Carbonear AM will do approximately $600,000 of revenue total for the year.  And we plan to launch that new FM station in February.  Last week we went into the market and pre‑sold $400,000 on Carbonear FM in three days.  So it was a very systematic approach, we did our blitz of our salespeople from St. John's, which is 45 minutes away and, you know, created that through stories and, as Scott is saying, through confidence.  And we have done, whatever that is, two‑thirds of last years' results already into this year with that FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13668             So we would do a similar thing in any new market that we started.  The sales force would be hired two months prior launch and we would go with a large blitz and then we would be selling and telling our story throughout the lead‑up period and also, obviously, after we launch.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13669             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  I just have, I think, just one more question, forgive me if there is another.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13670             Can you tell me how comprehensive your research was into that market, how many people were surveyed and how many businesses?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13671             Actually, I will have one more question.  Go ahead.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13672             MR. JONES:  Our research was conducted by Mark Kassof & Company, who has appeared before you earlier in the hearings for Owen Sound and, I believe, for Windsor.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13673             Mark has done a great deal of research for Newcap.  We take a great deal of pride in the amount of research we do, research is a compass.  And if you are lost in the woods, if you don't have a compass, you know, you could end up further away from your goal with every step you take.  So we try to gauge our direction first before we take any big steps.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13674             Our research in Peterborough was nine different formats and 300 individuals 18‑64. The margin of error in that research would be, on the ratings projections, 3.4 per cent plus or minus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13675             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Within the structure in terms of that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13676             MR. JONES:  I am sorry?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13677             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  The margin of error is 3.4 per cent within the ratings structure?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13678             MR. JONES:  Yes, within the final ratings projections.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13679             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay, thanks.  Have you surveyed the potential advertisers in terms of that and had any sense of any interest or otherwise from them in the marketplace or is that premature?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13680             MR. MURRAY:  Yes, we had not done that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13681             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  That is it for me, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13682             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Commissioner Menzies.  The more of these you will do, the quicker you will learn you never say I have one final question.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 13683             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I just have a couple of follow‑up questions and one has to deal with growth.  I, obviously, just heard your conversation with Commissioner Menzies.  But one area in which you don't project growth is in your audience share.  It is steady at 13 per cent for year one through to year seven.  What is your rationale for not including any growth in share of tuning?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13684             MR. JONES:  We believe that there is a hunger for this format in Peterborough and that hunger isn't necessarily going to take a long time to wrap up or grow exponentially once it is on the air.  We have seen, in the case of the recent CKPT flip, where the station immediately gained a 20 share plus in the first book.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13685             So when there is a hunger for a new format there generally isn't a long ramp‑up of escalating ratings.  Things can happen, quite often, fairly quickly and we believe we can sustain that over the course of the licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13686             MR. MURRAY:  And I would add that it is not like instant 13 and then 13 forever.  It is, you know, our average ratings for year one will be 13, our average ratings for year two will be 13, et cetera, because that is what we believe ‑‑ that is what our research told us that we would enjoy.  Obviously, there is going to be fluctuations and you are going to have great book ‑‑ BBM is not particularly reliable in all situations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13687             And as Scott said, you know, we really don't depend on ratings, we depend on providing results for clients and our community involvement and our local local ‑‑ and ratings are nice but, you know, they are not critical.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13688             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, thank you. And in terms of format, I did have up here your amended sample playlist.  In light of the format change in the market, in particular CKPT, what are the differences between that format and what I see here in your amended playlist?  Because a lot of these artists and a lot of these songs could fit into the Hot AC format, could it not?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13689             MR. JONES:  Yes and no.  We did look at CKPT's current playlist and did an analysis of what we would project the overlap would be.  And it would be about 10 percent or less and it would primarily be in certain artists that are Canadian for the most part.  There is not a lot of crossover.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13690             For example, CKPT's current playlist includes 60 percent from 2006 and 2007 so only 40 percent of their current spins are derived from previous to 2005.  On our approach only 10 percent of our entire spins would be from 2000 to today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13691             So we are really looking at two stations that although on the surface may have some artist overlap, the actual overlap is quite small.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13692             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, thank you for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13693             In terms of your news and spoken word in your oral presentation you said:

"The station's news director will supervise a team of two news journalists/announcers in Peterborough."  (As read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 13694             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You have among all the applicants ‑‑ wrong stickie.  Excuse me for just a second.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13695             Yes, amongst all the applicants you have the highest level of programming expenditures, not that that's a bad thing.  But just for comparison purposes what do you include in your programming line?  Is that just news staff or is it also the rest of your programming staff, like I say for comparison purposes because yours is the highest?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13696             MR. MURRAY:  Sure.  We do that in detail and Glenda can.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13697             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, terrific.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13698             MS SPENRATH:  Yes, that would include the entire programming costs, including of course the biggest is our payroll staff complement.  But it would also include our broadcast news, the cost of any news vehicles; any other supplies or costs are included in running the news and programming departments.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13699             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So how many staff members does that line item include?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13700             MS SPENRATH:  That includes the equivalent of five programming and part time and three fulltime news, and a part time as well news person.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13701             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13702             So it's not like you just pay the greatest salaries?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 13703             MS SPENRATH:  We think so.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13704             THE CHAIRPERSON:  To attract the best people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13705             Again, in your oral presentation you said:

"The station will benefit from Newcap's existing news resources in Ontario and across Canada."  (As read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 13706             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And I am wondering if you could elaborate a bit for us on that in that is it ‑‑ are we talking about synergies with resources or news stories?  How is the station going to benefit?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13707             MR. JONES:  Well, as I mentioned to Commissioner Menzies earlier, the synergies are minimal but they are there.  And the benefit would primarily be in content that is locally relevant to all those radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13708             The example earlier was the snowstorm on the east coast where the content that happened in Charlottetown was really very relevant to our audience in Halifax or St. John's, Newfoundland because those communities are so interconnected in terms of travel and family members.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13709             So when news breaks in Ottawa where we have two radio stations there may be an opportunity.  If the news that breaks in Ottawa is relevant to Peterborough, we can share those resources with our station in Peterborough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13710             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it's not that Newcap has or is planning on having a centralized newsgathering?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13711             MR. JONES:  Right.  At this point we don't have that and don't have plans to do that, although I will elaborate slightly on one point in terms of the east coast.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13712             We have radio stations in all of the Atlantic capital cities and created a report we call "The Capital Report" that airs in each market each day that details the lead stories affecting each capital city across Atlantic Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13713             So as our company expands, you know, that may be something we look at, but at this point we don't have any kind of central news service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13714             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And would you consider that ‑‑ the example you just gave about Atlantic Canada, would you consider that network programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13715             MR. JONES:  Not so much network programming as simply sharing the synergies that exist between the stations because each radio station in that group contributes to it.  It's not something that's, you know, beamed down centrally.  It's a group effort.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13716             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13717             MR. MURRAY:  Just to expand a little bit on that, all of our stations use broadcast news.  We also use a product called KLZ which is a computerized network news system and it allows us to post news stories on a website and any of our stations can access that and draw those stories down.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13718             As an example, our VOCM full service news talk station in Newfoundland provides a large number of stories to BN and we get a huge credit for that.  So those stories are also available to our other stations directly from VOCM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13719             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13720             Legal counsel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13721             MS SMITH:  I have just a few questions for you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13722             We note your comment from your letter of September 27, 2007, page three, where you state that:

"The use of 100.5 would generate 10 to 15 percent fewer sales and would cause you not to reach a breakeven PBIT until year seven."  (As read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 13723             MS SMITH:  Would you accept licensing on this alternative frequency?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13724             MR. MURRAY:  Since that letter and since coming to the hearing we have received more information from our engineering experts.  And 100.5 has additional problems that we weren't aware of then.  So it's difficult to know what the impact would be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13725             I think ‑‑ apparently there is interference, potential interference with a Bellville station.  So basically what they said, you would need Bellville's permission to use 100.5 at a certain power level and they would have to agree to not increase their power in the future.  So it's not likely that they are going to do that.  They now have permission to operate at a higher parameter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13726             So I think 100.5 is a core alternative in Peterborough and I think what ‑‑ so the answer is "no".

LISTNUM 1 \l 13727             MS SMITH:  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 13728             MS SMITH:  I just have two CCD questions for you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13729             Could you confirm your understanding that if licensed your station would have to contribute a basic annual CCD contribution imposed by COL until the regulations are amended, based on the station's total annual revenues and in the amounts as set out in paragraph 116 of new radio policy, Public Notice CRTC 2006‑158?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13730             MS SPENRATH:  Yes, that is my understanding.  And we will be making basic CCD contributions in addition to the contributions that we have made in this application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13731             MS SMITH:  Thank you, just one additional question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13732             Could you confirm your understanding as well that of this basic annual amount no less than 60 percent of the station's basic annual CCD contribution must be allocated to either FACTOR or MusicAction and that the remaining amount, if any, may be directed to any eligible CCD initiative at your discretion?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13733             MS SPENRATH:  Yes, I understand that 60 percent must ‑‑ at least must go to FACTOR or MusicAction.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13734             MS SMITH:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13735             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Murray or Mr. Steele ‑‑ I'm not sure who it is ‑‑ but you have your final two minutes to give us your best pitch.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13736             Mr. Steele.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13737             MR. STEELE:  And thank you, I appreciate that.  I will be very brief and I will just cover some of the salient points.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13738             Well, thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13739             We believe that our application for 96.7 The River provides the best possible use of 96.7.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13740             96.7 is the only available frequency that can provide reliable coverage of Peterborough and the Kawarthas.  Our application would maximize the public benefit from use of this scarce spectrum in four significant respects.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13741             First, we would be a new entrant and a strong new editorial voice in the market with a broad appeal format designed to add the greatest diversity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13742             And secondly, we are an experienced midsize radio operator with the resources, the expertise necessary to compete successfully against the large experienced broadcasters who dominate the Peterborough radio landscape.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13743             And third, our contribution to the development of Canadian content of over one million is by the far highest before you and includes significant support for Peterborough's Trent University.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13744             And finally, our commitment to 17 hours of local spoken word, including over six hours of local news focusing on local and regional content is both one of the highest and will specifically appeal to residents of Peterborough and the broader region.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13745             We appreciate your consideration of our application and we look forward to subsequent phases of this proceeding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13746             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, and thank you to your colleagues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13747             We will take a very short five‑minute break to allow for the change in panels.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1000 / Suspension à 1000

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1005 / Reprise à 1005

LISTNUM 1 \l 13748             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13749             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13750             We will proceed with item 9, which is an application by Larche Communications Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Peterborough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13751             The new station would operate on frequency 96.7 MHz (channel 244B) with an average effective radiated power of 17,000 watts (maximum effective radiated power of 50,000 watts/antenna height of 96.8).

LISTNUM 1 \l 13752             Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Paul Larche.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13753             Please introduce your colleagues and you will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 13754             MR. LARCHE:  Thank you and good morning, Commissioners.  Good morning, Chair, good morning CRTC staff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13755             My name Paul Larche.  I am President of Larche Communication.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13756             Again, it's very much always a privilege to present before you and we are doing that today for a new FM undertaking in Peterborough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13757             Joining me is Mora Austin, Vice‑President of our company.  Next to Mora is our company's Music and Program Director, Ted Roop, and next to Ted is our Marketing Director from CITZ FM Kitchener, Beth Warren.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13758             Now, since we just presented to you the other day and this is pretty much the same panel, for the sake of saving everyone some time we are going to skip some of the background on our company and our people and our vision and accomplishments as they are already on the public record and get right to the meat of the application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13759             So Madam Chair and Commissioners, we are thrilled again to be here.  Much like Owen Sound which we talked about the other day, the Kawarthas Region is like home to us because it so closely mirrors Simcoe County where our Midland operation resides.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13760             Both are considered cottage country to much of Southern Ontario.  Their populations swell in the summer.  They both rely heavily on tourism with a multitude of recreational opportunities.  They are not only connected by the Trent‑Severn Waterway but by vibrant dynamic communities that share much of the same culture, values and challenges.  Their economies are also alike and intertwined.  That's why this application along with our application for Owen Sound, which is also part of cottage country, makes so much strategic sense for us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13761             So let's get right into the business plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13762             Mora.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13763             MS AUSTIN:  Thanks, Paul.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13764             Good morning, Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13765             The Classic Hits format is the clear choice for Peterborough.  LCI commissioned Radio Index Inc. to conduct a comprehensive market analysis to determine an underserved format opportunity for a new station and its impact on existing stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13766             The purpose of the study was to research the market viability of the top three FM radio formats currently not available on the FM dial in Peterborough at the time of the research; Top 40, CHR, Classic Hits and Adult Contemporary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13767             Although all three formats showed a clear demand, Classic Hits showed the highest interest particularly with listeners 25 to 54.  Over 43 percent of listeners in that demographic rated a high likeliness of listening to a Classic Hits station compared to 35 percent for CHR and 32 percent for Adult Contemporary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13768             Furthermore, the radio index study concluded that 72 percent of listeners could not identify a local station that features Classic Hits music.  It is the clear format void.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13769             Offering a local Classic Hits station will also bring listeners back to Peterborough.  Many local listeners have left local radio and found Classic Hits on CKLY FM in Lindsay and CHUC FM in Cobourg or found other alternatives to get their Classic Hits music such as iPods, the internet and satellite radio.  Currently, CKLY FM and CHUC FM garner a 4.3 share of hours tuned in Peterborough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13770             To tell you more about our proposed Classic Hits format I will pass it to Ted.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13771             MR. ROOP:  Thank you very much, Mora.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13772             Our new station is going to be called Classic Hits 96 and will feature a broad‑based music format that will air the biggest hits from the sixties to today with the primary focus on the eighties and nineties.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13773             The Classic Hits format derives much of its popularity from a very wide and diverse playlist covering many popular genres.  Core artists would include Bryan Adams, Fleetwood Mac, Madonna, John Mellancamp, Corey Hart, Blondie, Tom Cochrane, Bonnie Tyler, B‑52s, The Police, Glass Tiger, Men Without Hats and Hootie and the Blowfish.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13774             Classic Hits 96's programming will be 100 percent locally produced and originating.  We believe the only way to truly reflect the community you serve is to ensure all programming originates from the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13775             As mentioned in our Owen Sound application, our non‑music programming in a nutshell will be local, local and more local.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13776             Classic Hits 96 will offer Peterborough listeners over 12‑and‑a‑half hours weekly in comprehensive and local talk reflecting the community.  This represents 10 percent of our total weekly programming and will include news, sports, weather, traffic reports, business reports and more.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13777             Our newsroom will broadcast every half hour in the mornings and again during selected hours during the day and weekend and we will provide close to four hours of news per week.  The addition of this distinct news voice in Peterborough will increase diversity and add an alternatives news perspective to the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13778             Classic Hits 96 will also provide daily recreation reports from our station boat or station snowmobile on activities in the area.  We will also provide daily relevant spoken word features such as community clips and the Peterborough Sounding Board on issues revolving around their lifestyle and local activities, and events that reflect the fabric and cultural makeup of Peterborough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13779             We anticipate the impact on local stations will be minimal considering the current incumbent stations' formats and market growth.  We will be repatriating out of market listeners and bringing back radio dollars that have left the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13780             Now, to talk about some of our exciting CCD initiatives here is Beth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13781             MS WARREN:  Thanks, Ted.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13782             Although we are applying for a Classic Hits format, LCI is dedicated to assisting and developing emerging Canadian talent.  After all, today's current artists will become tomorrow's classics.  That's just part of the reason why LCI is committing a total of $350,000 over the first licence term.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13783             Fostering emerging talent is not only an investment in radio but also in the artists, the music industry and in Canadian culture and heritage.  Without the foundation to assist Canadian talent on record, most Canadian artists would never be able to afford to record.  $20,000 per year will go to FACTOR in order to contribute to the growth and development of the Canadian recording industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13784             To help nurture the love of music in our young people another $10,000 per year will go towards the purchase of new musical instruments and equipment for Peterborough elementary and secondary schools.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13785             We have also committed $10,000 per year towards the Peterborough Kiwanis Festival of Music.  These music festivals have been instrumental in developing the careers of some of Canada's biggest stars.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13786             Classic Hits 96 will also host the Star Quest Talent Search at a cost of $10,000 per year.  This will be modeled on the successful Star Quest we conduct in Midland and Kitchener.  The winner will receive studio time, reproduction and of course airtime on our station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13787             Our application also outlines a commitment of $50,000 per year in airtime and features devoted to promotion of music‑related activities in Peterborough and area as it relates to emerging artists.  This would include the promotion of concerts and performances by local artists, artistic and musical programs in the community and release of CDs by local artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13788             We are also planning a weekly one‑hour show called "Future Classics" featuring new Canadian music that fits the overall feel of the format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13789             These are truly superior CCD initiatives that we believe exceed and surpass the Commission's CCD plan as outlined in the most recent radio review.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13790             Again, as mentioned in our Owen Sound application, LCI is committed to Canadian music.  It's our lifeline and we realize we need a steady supply of high quality talent for our listeners.  We always strive to introduce Canadian and emerging artists any time we are able to, often opening for a popular headliner so that there is a built‑in audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13791             LCI has presented many Country music concerts in both central Ontario and Kitchener‑Waterloo at our own expense and our own risk.  As well, we often present concerts at no cost to the audience, creating a memorable experience for both the artist and our listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13792             We hope to have the chance to do this in Peterborough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13793             Paul.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13794             MR. LARCHE:  Thank you, Beth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13795             Again, sorry for the fact that we are repeating ourselves a bit, but we all do consider this a privilege.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13796             We understand and appreciate our mandate to the Broadcast Act, to give back, to bring value to our communities, to reflect like a mirror who we are as Canadians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13797             Profits are not our main motivator.  Sure, we need to stay economically sound, but an analysis of our returns over the past several years will show we invest our profits right back into our product.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13798             Too many in our industry are driven primarily by margin targets and shareholder expectations and others will run their operations on a shoestring, often because they can.  Our motivator is to create great radio.  We have a deep burning passion for this fantastic medium.  To continue doing great radio we need some economies of scale to become more efficient, to weather the ups and downs of our business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13799             Again, you have several great applications in front of you today by some really good broadcasters but we think ours holds up.  To sum up, approval of this application will fill the largest underserved format in the market.  Independent research clearly demonstrates the significant void Classic Hits will fill.  This format will also repatriate some out‑of‑market tuning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13800             We will provide a new distinct news voice.  This application will result in over 12‑and‑a‑half hours of distinct and local news and spoken word programming in Peterborough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13801             We will add an alternative news perspective to the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13802             We will invest considerably in Canadian talent development with $350,000 of expenditure over seven years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13803             And also, approval of this application will benefit the Canadian broadcast system.  As I mentioned in my introduction, Peterborough and the Kawarthas is part of cottage country and we know how to do great radio in cottage country.  We have done it successfully for 10 years.  Imagine the cross‑promotional opportunities and synergies that we could bring between our stations in Midland, soon to be Orillia, Peterborough and maybe even Owen Sound.  They would not only be connected by water but by a group of radio stations that would reflect events throughout the region.  Boating, fishing, snowmobiling, camping, cottaging, skiing, hiking, golfing; the list goes on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13804             LCI could be the common bond and glue that pulls these communities together for the betterment of all.  And isn't that what the Broadcasting Act is all about?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13805             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13806             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Larche, and your colleagues.  Welcome back.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13807             MR. LARCHE:  You are welcome.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13808             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And just so we are not accused of being repetitive I am going to ask you the CCD questions right off the top.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13809             So please confirm your understanding that if licensed your station will have to contribute a basic annual CCD contribution imposed by condition of licence until the regulations are amended, based on the station's total annual revenues and in the amounts as set out in paragraph 116 of the new radio policy, Public Notice CRTC 2006‑158.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13810             MR. LARCHE:  Confirmed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13811             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Please confirm your understanding that of this base annual amount no less than 60 percent of the station's basic annual CCD contribution must be allocated to either FACTOR or MusicAction and the remaining amount, if any, may be directed to any eligible CCD initiatives at your discretion?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13812             MR. LARCHE:  Confirmed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13813             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13814             And now we will move on to the specifics of your application.  And as you know ‑‑ I will be repetitive here because I do like to start with format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13815             MR. LARCHE:  M'hm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13816             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And would I characterize your proposed format as the softer side of Classic Hits?  Is that a fair characterization of what you are proposing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13817             MR. LARCHE:  I think the best characterization, and I'm sure Ted could talk more about this, we probably ‑‑ what we are proposing is as mainstream a Classic Hits format as you can without having launched it yet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13818             Anytime you are going to launch a radio station you find the hole.  But before we would launch we are also big believers in doing additional research, fine tuning, doing auditory and music testing to make sure that the music that we are going to play is exactly what the listener wants.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13819             So in a general sense I wouldn't want to say we are on the softer side of what a Classic Hits format would be because we would be Classic Hits and we would fine tune it to what the market wants, you know, if we have the good fortune to be approved for this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13820             Ted, do you have anything to add to that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13821             MR. ROOP:  I would just ‑‑ as far as eras go with the music that we would be playing or playlists that we would probably be playing, about 20 percent from the sixties, 40 percent from the seventies, 20 percent from the eighties, 15 percent from the nineties and 5 percent current music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13822             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And just so I can increase my knowledge base what is auditory music testing?  Is that ‑‑ do you bring in a focus group and play them a sample of what you will be playing on the station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13823             MR. LARCHE:  That is precisely what it is and the technology today allows an independent research company to bring in ‑‑ usually we do it with 75 to 100 people that fit the demographic we are going after.  We will have them listen to basically hooks of upwards of 200, 300, 400, 500 songs and they have a little dial and they can punch in what they think of it.  And we get data from that that allows us to tell us which songs they would prefer, which songs they feel they have heard too much and are burnt in the market.  Again, it makes it very, very tuned to those listeners in Peterborough.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13824             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And is this something you would typically do only once you are granted the licence as opposed to part of your application research?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13825             MR. LARCHE:  Actually, many stations do it once a year.  And online research as well ‑‑ you know, with our Country stations, Country is very much a current format versus a Gold Based format.  So it's very important to find out things like you know, are people liking the music.  And even more important is when are they getting tired of it because you can burn a song.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13826             And we do a lot of online research with a company called "Rate the Music" where we have literally hundreds and hundreds of listeners each week that will go through little clips of current songs.  We get data back to tell us, okay, this song is getting a little tired, this one they really, really like.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13827             And what has been really great about that, you know from our perspective, is we found that a lot of Canadian music, and I'm talking Country, really fares very well.  You know we don't have to pigeonhole what we are doing with music in terms of is it Canadian or not.  We just want to play the music that people want and they are liking the most.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13828             But to answer your question, auditorium testing is often done on an annual basis or every second or every two years, especially on a Gold Based format like we are talking about.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13829             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Well, thank you for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13830             Have you done a comparison of your proposed format with what is currently being offered in the market in terms ‑‑ to determine how much if any overlap there would be in terms of spins?  We know that there might be in terms of artists but in terms of individual spins have you done that comparison?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13831             MR. LARCHE:  The one that we would probably have the most spins with ‑‑ and again, Ted could talk more to this ‑‑ would probably be the Corus station, The Wolf.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13832             But our research shows that 72 percent of the listeners in Peterborough could not identify a station that would be considered Classic Hits in the definition that we gave them for Classic Hits.  That station would probably have the most duplication but that's a rock station.  They obviously would be, you know, considerably harder.  They would also be playing some current rock.  So we would have much of a different sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13833             In terms of AC, sure there would ‑‑ you know some artists in the seventies and eighties, the softer Elton Johns and so on and so forth, there would be some duplication there.  But our sound would be very unique in the sense that we are very much an era‑based format.  We are more of a Gold Based, a little more up tempo and not as soft as an AC station and that would really separate us from the pack there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13834             Ted, anything to add to that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13835             MR. ROOP:  Yes, as far as duplication goes I think it would be probably about 50 percent between the current rock station Corus owns in Peterborough right now.  It would be 50 percent, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13836             THE CHAIRPERSON:  50 or 15?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13837             MR. ROOP:  50.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13838             THE CHAIRPERSON:  50.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13839             MR. ROOP:  I mean they would be a lot harder than we would be, and then as far as the Hot AC station goes we would be a little hotter than they would be, a little edgier than they would be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13840             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And your target demo is 25 to 54 with a focus on 35 to 49?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13841             THE ROOP:  And the median age probably would be ‑‑ well, it would be a 42 year old adult.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13842             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You are a quick study, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13843             MR. ROOP:  A man or a woman, sorry.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 13844             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We heard the previous applicant characterize Peterborough as "the land of giants" in that you would be competing with the two Corus and the two CTVglobemedia combo.  As well, though, you will be competing with the out‑of‑market tuning to Kawartha Lakes, to Cobourg, to Toronto.  I think the out‑of‑market tuning is as high as 43 percent in this market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13845             What is going to allow Larche Communications to compete in this land of giants as it has been characterized?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13846             MR. LARCHE:  That's a great term.  It just came up this morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13847             Obviously, we wouldn't have applied if we didn't think we could compete.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13848             I think there are a few things we can bring to the table.  Obviously, our experience.  We compete in other markets, in Kitchener and in central Ontario, in Midland, Orillia and Barrie, with Corus and with Rogers and with CTV in these markets, and we hold our own.  We run successful businesses.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13849             Also, one of the things I try to get across with our business plan ‑‑ and I say it time and time again ‑‑ is that we try to make it realistic, in the sense that we are not here with the highest cost for programming and for marketing and promotions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13850             We are also not here with the highest revenue projections.  We try to be conservative, because we know, as a small operator, that we have to live to the mandate of providing what we say we are going to provide in our applications, and give to the community, but we want to make sure that we are doing it not in a position where, financially, we could really get ourselves into some trouble.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13851             I think, if you were to look at our expenses, programming and otherwise, you would find that they are probably in the middle of the pack, but they are very realistic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13852             I think that our revenue projections are also a little lower.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13853             We know that these are conservative numbers, and if that's the way it goes, then we can still weather it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13854             I think there are a couple of other things, too.  We will have some synergies throughout that region ‑‑ throughout central Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13855             Again, one of the things that excited me so much about the fact that there was a call for Owen Sound and Peterborough is that they are nice bookends for the part of the province that we live in and that we want to call home.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13856             There is no doubt that there are all kinds of great synergies that would abound, particularly when it comes to a lot of the culture in the area.  We talk a lot about snowmobiling and skiing and golfing and boating.  We all do a lot of it, because that is what people do in our area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13857             We imagine having a marine team ‑‑ we do have one in Georgian Bay, but we imagine having another one in Peterborough, and possibly Owen Sound.  On weekends they could be saying:  If you are taking your boat through the Trent‑Severn system, let's see what the conditions are like on Lake Simcoe.  Let's go to our sister station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13858             That would be something that we could offer that wouldn't cost us any additional money, but would allow us to have a unique selling proposition, for lack of a better term, and keep our costs down.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13859             Then, of course, we would have the synergy of an engineer.  We could have one engineer look after all of these radio properties, because they would be within an hour or an hour and a half's drive from where we are based.  And accounting, and so on and so forth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13860             To answer your question, because it is a good question and I was thoroughly expecting it:  We could compete with no problem, if we were given the opportunity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13861             I know you will probably ask about the frequency issue, so ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13862             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sure, jump ahead.  Go for it.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 13863             MR. LARCHE:  When I say all of this, I want to preface it by saying that we would only be able to do this, we feel, if we received the frequency we applied for.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13864             We know that this is a competitive hearing.  We know that there are a couple of other frequencies that are possibilities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13865             Our alternate frequency is the same alternate frequency that Mr. Murray talked about this morning.  Just a week ago we found out through Industry Canada that there could be issues with that frequency that could greatly diminish the coverage that that frequency would give us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13866             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So, as a result ‑‑ I believe it was in response to questions of clarification ‑‑ you said that it would have minimal impact on your business plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13867             MR. LARCHE:  We say that it would have minimal impact on our deficiencies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13868             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13869             MR. LARCHE:  But, again, since that time, Industry Canada ‑‑ and I think you will hear this, probably, from other applicants, as well, today.  Many of us have applied for the same main frequency and alternate frequency, and there is an issue now with that alternate frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13870             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So is 96.7 the only viable frequency available in the market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13871             MR. LARCHE:  We believe it would be the only viable frequency available to us to be able to survive in that market, in the land of giants.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13872             THE CHAIRPERSON:  If we were to grant you ‑‑ just to be absolutely sure, if we were to grant you a licence that was an approval, in part, which said, "Great idea.  Yes, we approve your application, but go out and find another frequency," you would not accept that licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13873             MR. LARCHE:  No, I wouldn't.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13874             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Thank you.  Best to be sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13875             In terms of the other characterization of the market, which is that of cottage country ‑‑ and we know that means that the population can swell on weekends, and in the summer in particular.  How do you adjust in terms of audience share, and therefore advertisers, when you are in a market such as this, where the population does swell at different times of the year and throughout the week?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13876             MR. LARCHE:  Again, we have been doing this for 10 years now.  I think I mentioned the other day that, although we don't have an opportunity to translate a lot of the cottagers and people that come up during the summer into ratings, because, unfortunately, they are not rated, we do have a great opportunity to monetize them, in the sense that the local retail community knows that those people are going to be spending money in that area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13877             It could be a box store, it could be a boutique, it could be groceries, it could be anything and everything in between.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13878             Obviously, when we are laying out our sales plan for the year, we know that.  We build that into our cycle and we make sure that we are approaching clients at the right time to take advantage of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13879             But the population up there, again ‑‑ you know, you are looking across that region at a population base of probably close to 500,000 people, if you were to include the whole population base.  Obviously, the people who live there buy their cars there and do most of their retail there, and those people we look after all year long.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13880             Mora, do you have anything to add to that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13881             MS AUSTIN:  As far as some of the things that we might do differently, if I understand your question correctly, about our on‑air product during the summertime?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13882             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13883             MS AUSTIN:  We do some specialty programming at that time of year, such as "Cottage Country Traffic", for example.  We probably triple our traffic reports on Friday evening and Sunday afternoon and Sunday evening, because there are so many people coming up from Toronto.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13884             As well, on Friday nights we do a drive‑through request show.  We go to different ‑‑ we are out of Midland, but we certainly service a lot of other communities around there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13885             So we would go there, and we would ask people to stop by and actually drive through and make a request.  We are finding that we have the local people that come through, but, as well, we have some of the cottagers coming through, getting geared up for the weekend.  They want to hear their favourite song.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13886             That kind of thing is where we would kind of tweak our programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13887             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So, as it is commonly referred to, the DJ banter and the spoken word programming are then customized ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13888             MS AUSTIN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13889             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ for those population swells at different times of the year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13890             MS AUSTIN:  Exactly, realizing that our main focus is our local residents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13891             THE CHAIRPERSON:  In speaking of spoken word, just to confirm, your application is proposing 12 hours and 38 minutes in total of spoken word programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13892             MR. LARCHE:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13893             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Seven hours of information programming, of which four hours would be news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13894             MR. LARCHE:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13895             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The difference between the seven and the four, is that surveillance material for the most part?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13896             You say seven hours of information programming, and four would be news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13897             MR. LARCHE:  Yes.  Four would be strictly news ‑‑ three hours and 58 minutes ‑‑ and then other surveillance material would make up a lot of the rest of it:  traffic reports, obviously, being a big one; weather; sports ‑‑ Peterborough Petes coverage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13898             We also are proposing community clips, which would be daily vignettes that reflect issues that are going on in the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13899             These are things that we currently do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13900             Also, there will be features like the "Peterborough Sounding Board", where we allow people from Peterborough to give us their feedback on an issue of the day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13901             Each day we talk about a local issue that is relevant, and usually we try to do it on something that is quite perishable.  It is an issue that came up at council last night, or something to that effect.  We would ask a question ‑‑ "Call on this line and leave your feedback", and the next day we would provide little snippets of people's comments in the area as it relates to that subject.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13902             We also do commentaries.  One of our news directors, Brian Wicks ‑‑ we call it "Words of Wicksdom", where he will give 90 seconds of, basically, his opinion, or interpretation, of an issue, and we always solicit feedback on it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13903             It is to give, again, an alternate perspective to what the mainstream might be doing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13904             We also have in there entertainment reports and morning show interviews, and so on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13905             THE CHAIRPERSON:  As far as the news is concerned, the breakdown between local and national, regional, international?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13906             MR. LARCHE:  We put 60 percent local, 20 percent regional, and 20 percent national/international.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13907             Again, those are guidelines, depending on what is going on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13908             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And for the regional news, there might be some synergies there with your Midland and Kitchener stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13909             MR. LARCHE:  Yes, there would be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13910             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I believe your application calls for the hiring of two full‑time newspeople to produce this level of news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13911             MR. LARCHE:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13912             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You heard my conversation with the previous applicant, in terms of programming expenses, and I believe yours are on the low side, when we compare those expenditures with the other applicants in this proceeding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13913             Could you tell us what it is that you include in that expense line, just so we can compare that with what everybody else is doing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13914             MR. LARCHE:  We would include all of our on‑air staff, including news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13915             THE CHAIRPERSON:  What would that total?  What would the staff complement be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13916             MR. LARCHE:  We have a total staff complement of 13 now.  we have four on‑air, two news, and then there would be two part‑time news and two part‑time on‑air.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13917             So there would be six, and four part‑time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13918             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Which would translate into two full‑time, I guess; right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13919             MR. LARCHE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13920             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Your expenditure line includes eight full‑time ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13921             MR. LARCHE:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13922             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ equivalent full‑time people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13923             MR. LARCHE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13924             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And their primary function is programming, whether it's news or ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13925             MR. LARCHE:  It's programming produced on‑air, correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13926             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13927             The capacity of the market to absorb new commercial radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13928             What do you believe the market can sustain?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13929             MR. LARCHE:  The market can certainly sustain one.  It possibly could sustain two.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13930             There are unique issues with this market:  the application by Corus to flip their AM to FM, and the fact that there is only one, right now, really good frequency that is in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13931             It goes back to what I said earlier.  I think the market could possibly sustain two, but I wouldn't be the one that would want the frequency that may have an issue with it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13932             I would need to have some very clear indication that there would be no issue that just popped up last week with an alternate frequency.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13933             To answer your question, I think the market could probably, for sure, absorb one, possibly two.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13934             It would depend on which two, as well; how the formats duplicate each other.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13935             If you were to license one that was going for a much younger demographic, and another station that was skewing older, then the impact wouldn't be as big.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13936             But it is a very healthy, vibrant market, there is no doubt about it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13937             THE CHAIRPERSON:  When you say that it could sustain two, does that include the Corus flip plus one, or is it the Corus flip plus two?

LISTNUM 1 \l 13938             MR. LARCHE:  No, the Corus flip plus one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13939             But if the Corus flip gave them 96.7 ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13940             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right, the frequency issue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13941             MR. LARCHE:  ‑‑ then it would be very tough for the plus one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13942             I am speaking for myself.  I certainly don't want to speak for ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 13943             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You are the only one you can speak for.