TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

                      SUBJECT / SUJET:

Various broadcasting applications /

Diverses demandes de radiodiffusion

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

Quartz Ballroom                       Quartz Ballroom

Matrix Hotel                          Matrix Hôtel

10001-107th Street                    10001-107th Street

Edmonton, Alberta                     Edmonton (Alberta)

June 4, 2008                          Le 4 juin 2008

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

                 Transcript / Transcription

Various broadcasting applications /

Diverses demandes de radiodiffusion

BEFORE / DEVANT:

Elizabeth Duncan                  Chairperson / Présidente

Rita Cugini                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Candice Molnar                    Commissioner / Conseillère

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Cindy Ventura                     Secretary / Sécretaire

Lyne Cape                         Hearing Manager /

                                  Gérante de l'audience

Véronique Lehoux                  Legal Counsel

                                  Conseillère Juridique

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

Quartz Ballroom                   Quartz Ballroom

Matrix Hotel                      Matrix Hôtel

10001-107th Street                10001-107th Street

Edmonton, Alberta                 Edmonton (Alberta)

June 4, 2008                      Le 4 juin 2008

- iv -

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

                                                 PAGE / PARA

PHASE I (Cont'd)

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

CTV Limited                                      1574 /10321

Harvard Broadcasting Inc.                        1646 /10800

Evanov Communications Inc. (OBCI)                1711 /11202

Rawlco Radio Ltd.                                1766 /11525

PHASE II

No interventions / Aucune intervention

PHASE III

INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:

Paul Hothie                                      1843 /11931

Assist Community Services Centre                 1848 /11953

Lulu Bernal                                      1852 /11973

Punjabi Heritage Theatre Society of Alberta      1857 /11998

               Edmonton, Alberta / Edmonton (Alberta)

‑‑‑ Upon resuming on Wednesday, June 4, 2008 at 0904 /

    L'audience reprend le mercredi 4 juin 2008 à 0904

10314            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good morning everyone.

10315            Madam Secretary.

10316            THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

10317            Before beginning, I have one small announcement.  For the record, Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Limited partnership has filed, in response to undertakings, a copy of the letter from FACTOR.  This document has been added to the public record, and copies are available in the public examination room.

10318            We will now proceed with Item 23 on the agenda, which is an application by CTV Limited for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Edmonton.  The new station would operate on Frequency 107.1 MHz, Channel 296C1, with an effective radiated power of 40,000 watts, non‑directional antenna, antenna height of 272 metres.

10319            Appearing for the Applicant is Chris Gordon.

10320            Please introduce your colleagues.  You will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

10321            MR. GORDON:  Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, Commission Staff, my name is Chris Gordon.  I am extremely pleased that my first appearance before the Commission as President of CHUM Radio is to present this exciting proposal for Edmonton's Essential 107.

10322            Before we begin our formal presentation I would like to introduce my colleagues on the panel today.

10323            To my right, your left, is James Stuart.  James Stuart is the Vice‑President and General Manager for CHUM Radio, Alberta.

10324            James has had over 15 years of experience in the Edmonton radio market, and joined CHUM four years ago to drive our launch of The Bounce.

10325            To James' right is Gisele Sowa, General Sales Manager and Assistant General Manager for The Bounce.

10326            To my left, your right, is Maie Pauts.  Maie is one of Canada's top experts in the genre of alternative music, and, specifically, this new and distinctive format of essential alternative.

10327            Maie was at the epicentre of the early alternative music scene, almost 20 years ago, when she was on‑air at CFNY, Canada's first alternative radio station.

10328            She has been with CHUM Radio for over seven years now, and will be the Program Director of Essential 107, should we be licensed.

10329            To Maie's left is Rob Farina, Vice‑President of Programming for CHUM Radio.  Rob works with our program directors across the country as they innovate with new formats and build multi‑platform connections with listeners.

10330            Behind us, in the second row, starting to my left, your right, is Lenore Gibson, Director of Regulatory Affairs for CTVglobemedia.

10331            Next to Lenore is David Goldstein, Senior Vice‑President of Regulatory Affairs for CTVglobemedia.

10332            Next to David is Kerry French, Vice‑President of Business Analysis for CHUM Radio.  She oversees our market and economic research, and provides our business development analysis.

10333            Next to Kerry, on the far right, is Jim Fealy, our Vice‑President of Finance.

10334            I would now like to ask James Stuart to begin our formal presentation.

10335            MR. STUART:  Thanks, Chris.

10336            I am extremely excited to be here with you today to share our vision for a new Edmonton radio station called Essential 107.  This application represents a truly distinctive take on the alternative format, one we are confident will resonate with the community of listeners who want to be a part of a social network of music and local reflection, but who cannot currently find what they are looking for on the Edmonton radio dial.

10337            We know there is room in the market for more choices.  The evidence is clear that the market is robust and shows signs of continued growth.  That said, we know that commercially viable spectrum is limited.

10338            In our time here today we will outline three key reasons why we believe the Commission should approve our application for Essential 107:

10339            One, our track record of success in Edmonton.

10340            Two, our unparalleled commitment to diversity and Canadian Content Development.

10341            And, three, our unique format responds to the needs of an underserved audience.

10342            Five years ago we sat here in Edmonton at an extremely competitive licensing proceeding.  CHUM Radio's response to the call was an innovative youth format for an underserved audience, with a view to changing the radio landscape for Edmontonians.  While there were skeptics, our local market research told us that the youth audience was looking for choice on the radio dial.

10343            We included in that proposal an investment in Canadian Talent Development of $4 million.  This was not simply a giveaway, but a purposeful series of targeted initiatives that were conceived to take unknown Canadian performers and create Canadian recording stars in the urban/contemporary/hit radio genre.

10344            In 2004, the Commission licensed what would become known as The Bounce.  Since its launch, we have managed to change the radio landscape in Edmonton, and we have helped repatriate young listeners to radio.

10345            We have also leveraged our CCD initiatives to create genuine Canadian stars.  While it has only been a few years, the results have been profound.

10346            Perhaps I could illustrate this with just two examples from one of those initiatives, The Bounce's "Showdown", an annual talent contest that we run.

10347            Kreesha Turner was our first winner.  As part of the prize package, we sent Kreesha to record with Vancouver's Hipjoint Productions.  This helped Kreesha meet Nelly Furtado's manager, Chris Smith, who agreed to represent her.  She has since signed an international recording contract with Virgin Music through EMI Music Canada, and I am very proud to say that her debut release "Passion" will be released internationally this fall.

10348            Our second winner was Shiloh.  Through the funding provided by CHUM Radio, she was also able to record with Hipjoint, where she attracted professional management, and is now on the verge of signing with a major record label.  In fact, as of late yesterday afternoon, we are very proud to confirm that Shiloh has now signed with Universal Canada.

10349            Her song "Alright" has been used in a broadcast of the U.S. television program "Gossip Girl".  More recently, her song "Raise a Little Hell" was featured in the new Ashton Kutcher and Cameron Diaz movie "What Happens in Vegas".

10350            You, the Commission, by that licensing decision, share in these successes, and we sincerely hope that our team's track record here in Edmonton will form part of your deliberations.

10351            Based on our success with The Bounce, we have discovered another opportunity to reach a truly underserved Edmonton audience, create a community, repatriate them to radio, and launch another series of groundbreaking CCD initiatives that will create the same kind of success for essential alternative artists.

10352            Our proposal for Essential 107 is designed to increase the diversity of music and spoken word programming available in the Edmonton market.  Essential 107 will have an intensely local focus.  This will include over 10 hours of spoken word programming each week, in a presentation style that is targeted to this underserved community.

10353            Our target audience is well educated, socially conscious, and politically aware.  To that end, we will offer them a minimum of 3 hours and 35 minutes each week of news and information programming, all of which will be locally produced and relevant to our specific audience.

10354            Essential 107 will also air a significant amount of Canadian music, with a minimum of 40 percent of the musical selections coming from Canadian artists.  A minimum of 25 percent of those musical selections will be from emerging Canadian stars.

10355            MS SOWA:  As mentioned earlier, when we applied for the licence to operate The Bounce, we made very ambitious promises relating to Canadian Talent Development.  With this application, we are looking to build on these significant achievements.

10356            The total value of our proposed CCD package is in excess of $10 million.

10357            To be clear, this amount is over and above the annual CCD obligations outlined in the Commercial Radio Policy.

10358            Of our proposals, there are two initiatives that we want to specifically highlight today.  The first is our proposal to provide a Community Radio Fund with $700,000 to establish an Alberta Cultural Diversity Program.

10359            This program will benefit campus and community stations in Alberta, and will allow them to fund local multicultural programming.

10360            In effect, the licensing of Essential 107 will result in the greatest increase in diversity, by allowing two of the three elements of the broadcasting system, private as well as campus community, to improve service in the market.

10361            The second is our cornerstone initiative, the Essential's "Start to Star" talent search.

10362            Building on the success we have had with The Bounce's "Showdown", this program consists of a comprehensive plan that involves the production of a CD, artist management, marketing, airplay and promotion.

10363            Local artists will submit three original songs to a panel of independent music industry judges.  Winning artists will get to work with the songwriters at Hipjoint to write and record a debut CD.

10364            The CD will be distributed and promoted by a Canadian‑owned record label, and all of the rights will reside with the artist.

10365            The lead single will be distributed to all format‑appropriate radio stations across Canada, not just to CHUM radio stations.

10366            A music video will be produced by a leading video director.

10367            The artist will automatically be enrolled in the CHUM Emerging Inde Artist Initiative, and receive guaranteed airplay, on‑air interviews, and marketing across all applicable CHUM radio stations.

10368            We will leverage all promotional opportunities to the benefit of Canadian artists, such as cross‑promotion on MuchMusic.

10369            And funds set aside for the Essential's "Start to Star" initiative will also be used for marketing materials, tour support and promotion.

10370            This level of commitment to an artist launch is unprecedented in Canada.

10371            I would now like to turn to Maie, to give you a better sense of the format in this underserved audience segment in Edmonton.

10372            MS PAUTS:  Essential 107 represents an exciting and innovative format that does not currently exist in Edmonton.  In fact, over 75 percent of the musical selections we propose for this station are currently not being played in this market.

10373            It would fill a musical void in the Edmonton radio community, and enhance the diversity of programming in this market.

10374            The format proposed is essential alternative.  In order to understand what essential alternative is, we need to look at how the alternative format evolved.

10375            Alternative music had its roots in the seventies, with punk, rock and electronic sounds.  It was reflected in the music of artists as diverse as the Sex Pistols, Craftwork, The Clash, and Canada's own Teenage Head, who just played Edmonton on Sunday night.

10376            While rooted in rock and pop music, alternative continued to evolve in the eighties to embrace a variety of sub‑genres ‑‑ for example, SCA, with the music of The English Beat; garage rock, with R.E.M.; the goth sounds of The Cure or Bauhaus; the grunge of Pearl Jam; and the list goes on.

10377            The genre was called "alternative", a word that described not only the music, but the fans that listened to it.

10378            Alternative music fans stood out because of the music they listened to, the way they thought, and how they looked.  Picture early eighties teens with pink streaks in their hair, and maybe a piercing or two ‑‑ pretty tame today, but the leading edge at the time.

10379            In the nineties, it was the Seattle‑based grunge rock sound that came to define alternative.  It escalated into a hard new rock sound, and came in and swooped up a huge audience of young male listeners.

10380            It became modern rock, and the alternative radio stations at the time all moved to serve this narrow market, which left all of the other genres of alternative, and the audience who was passionate about that music, without a home on the dial.

10381            In Edmonton, these fans have always had to work hard to find and support the music they love, through campus radio, music magazines, word of mouth, live venues, TV and the internet.

10382            They have been at the forefront of musical trends in the last three decades because they do welcome innovation and change.  They were among the first to jump on the internet, and to embrace all forms of technological advancements.

10383            These disenfranchised alternative music fans are now in their thirties and forties, and while they are not typically married with children, well educated and in good‑paying jobs, they still have that early‑adopter mentality.  They want to hear the music they grew up with, as well as the latest from the contemporary alternative music scene.

10384            MR. FARINA:  As an audience, these listeners are a disenfranchised segment of the population, who, in Edmonton, have never had a radio station to reflect their interests, music and ideals.

10385            In fact, out of the three formats we tested, essential alternative showed the largest underserved audience.  This could be partly attributed to the lack of exposure of true alternative artists, despite the launch of SONiC three years ago.

10386            Essential 107 will target adults aged 25 to 44, with a varied alternative music sound.  In order to reflect the music they grew up with, the station will air essential alternative tracks from the past 25 years.

10387            This audience still has a great interest in today's diverse alternative music scene, and, consequently, the station will feature a substantial amount of current alternative music not receiving any significant airplay in Edmonton.

10388            New music from emerging Canadian artists will also be featured prominently, including music from artists such as Buck 65, Emily Haines, Stars, Lites, and Patrick Watson.

10389            As mentioned earlier, Essential 107's listeners were early adopters of new media.  As such, the radio station will have an innovative web presence.

10390            Essential 107 will utilize several interactive touchpoints to forge a relationship with our listeners, and serve them on multiple platforms.

10391            At the core of our interactive plan for Essential 107 is a sophisticated social networking portal, which will allow our listeners to interact with friends and other music fans.

10392            The social networking component of Essential 107's website will let listeners know when their colleagues are online, and if their friends are attending any of the station events or concerts.

10393            Essential 107's web presence will also provide listeners extensive content modules that will keep them informed of local concerts, events, local news stories, and news about their favourite bands.

10394            Listeners will be able to not only access the information online, but will be able to update it and comment on it through message boards, blogs or podcasts.

10395            To further keep listeners engaged to Essential 107, our online platform will provide streaming of new and vintage music videos, full‑song streams of new emerging artists, or on‑demand content of shows previously aired live on the radio station.

10396            To give you added insight into the station, we have prepared the following short video.

10397            Please roll the tape.

‑‑‑ Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

10398            MR. GORDON:  As you can see, Essential 107 is clearly an exciting concept that will resonate with a segment of listeners in Edmonton who are currently disenfranchised with radio.

10399            Edmontonians want choice, and the market conditions are strong and show future prospects for growth.

10400            However, we are looking at the last few commercially viable frequencies, and we all know that the Commission is responsible for licensing based on the best use of scarce spectrum.

10401            We respectfully submit that our application is the most responsive to the listeners of Edmonton, as well as the objectives of the Broadcasting Act and the Commercial Radio Policy.

10402            As we have outlined for you today, we have a strong track record here in Edmonton at surpassing expectations.  Our application offers the most diversity and Canadian Content Development, both in quantum and potential impact.

10403            And we have researched the market and found a truly underserved local audience segment, which can be repatriated to radio with minimal impact on existing services.

10404            In a very short time, The Bounce's team here in Edmonton has worked to change the radio landscape, and has achieved admirable success in the face of a serious market imbalance.

10405            As a single FM operator in a market where several large players have two, three and four stations, we are easily left out of national advertising buys.

10406            As Gisele can tell you from personal experience, we are at a serious disadvantage in the local retail advertising market.

10407            By licensing Essential 107, our local team will have the tools, not only for a fair fight in the marketplace, but the critical mass to enhance our ability to provide diversity and service for Edmontonians.

10408            The Commission is well aware of CHUM Radio's long and proud legacy.  My personal vision includes a future for CHUM Radio that will build on that legacy by fostering intensely local Centres of Excellence, each with their own interactive community, while staying at the forefront of format innovation and content creation.

10409            I believe that this application for Edmonton's Essential 107 is part of that vision.

10410            For the benefit of Edmontonians, we sincerely hope that the Commission will give us another opportunity to surpass your expectations and share in our collective success.

10411            Thank you, and we look forward to your questions.

10412            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Gordon.

10413            Commissioner Molnar will start the questioning.

10414            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank you.  Good morning.

10415            I would like to begin by getting a better sense of your target market.  You say that they are 30 to 40‑year‑olds.  Is there anything more that you can tell me about your typical listener?

10416            Is it male?  Is it female?

10417            MR. GORDON:  The target market is adults 25 to 44.  The sweet spot, if you will, would be 30 to 40‑year olds.

10418            It's a pretty even balance between male and female.

10419            I would like to ask Rob Farina to expand on that a little bit for you, Commissioner Molnar.

10420            MR. FARINA:  Thank you, Chris.

10421            Commissioner Molnar, one of the things with the market that we are targeting, as well as looking at where they are today, is where they came from.

10422            As youth, this was a real disenfranchised market.  They didn't fit into the conventional rock scene or the pop scene.

10423            As Commissioner Cugini said yesterday, people were either rockers or into disco, but there was this third group that didn't fit into either of those genres.  They listened to this music.  Some of it originated from the U.K., but a strong alternative scene exploded throughout all of North America.  The music came from diverse genres, and this was an audience that didn't subscribe to convention.  They were very different.

10424            In growing up, they always had to seek separate avenues, rather than the conventional avenues to find their music.

10425            It is a very distinct audience, but now, as they have grown, and they are in their thirties and forties, they have real‑life issues like we all do.  They have kids, they have jobs, they have mortgages to pay.

10426            So, in terms of their lifestyle, there are many similarities, but yet that perspective, which they had from a very young age, gives them a very unconventional approach to how they look at things.

10427            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  So it is your view that this target audience is not listening to radio today?

10428            MR. FARINA:  It is our view that this target audience ‑‑ the music they grew up with is not widely available on radio today.

10429            So while they may be going to a series of different places to find it, there is no one avenue for them to have a format that really targets them.

10430            In fact, in Canada, the only format that targeted this audience during their youth, which was predominantly during the eighties, was CFNY in Toronto.

10431            This was a very small niche audience, and throughout the course of time the appeal for the music has grown, as the research has shown us.

10432            We were taken aback by the research findings, because a lot of this music was never really exposed in Edmonton.

10433            We approached the research study looking at the three holes that we thought the market could sustain, which wouldn't impede on the existing players, but we didn't know what to expect in terms of this essential alternative because of the lack of exposure that a lot of this music had gotten in the market.

10434            The first time this market got an alternative station was three years ago, with SONiC, and SONiC is very indicative of what the alternative rock format is today, which is completely different from what this format used to be.  The alternative rock format merged into a very young, male‑skewing, hard rock sounding station, and a lot of the artists that populated alternative playlists previous to that disappeared from playlists because they didn't fit that sound.

10435            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.  Thank you.

10436            I am just trying to get a sense ‑‑ as you know, there are many stations, including one of your own, in the market today, and there are many applicants here today, and I am trying to get a sense as to where these people are today and what they are listening to.

10437            Obviously, you believe that they will tune in and have a desire to listen to this more.  Would this, in your view, become their predominant station, their loyal listener station if you will?

10438            MR. GORDON:  There is no doubt that they are listening to radio stations currently, but they are searching in other places to find the music they are looking for on a regular basis.

10439            Yes, we believe that we will be able to repatriate a number of listeners back to radio who will make this their number one choice.

10440            I think that Maie Pauts could give you some real examples of what we would try to do, and how we would approach that audience, and how we would be speaking to them in a different manner.

10441            Maie...

10442            MS PAUTS:  Thank you.

10443            Let me preface my answer by giving you a little analogy that I could, maybe, associate with these listeners.  For example, if you are a vegetarian and you go out for dinner with your friends at any given restaurant, you can find a dish or two that you can eat and enjoy.  But you, as a vegetarian, would much prefer to go to a vegetarian restaurant, where you can enjoy everything on the menu.

10444            This is how I see the essential alternative listener here in Edmonton.  They are looking for a place where they can enjoy and find their needs in a full‑service radio station for them.

10445            This would not only be reflected in the music, but also in the spoken word.

10446            At this point these people are jumping around to various different ‑‑ not only radio stations, but other formats, to find everything they are looking for, whether it's getting the new music they want off the internet, maybe some traffic from one station, and maybe some news from another.

10447            What we would like to propose is that we can give them everything in one concise package with Essential 107.

10448            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Is there any expectation, from an advertiser's perspective, that you can target these people in such a way that advertisers can reach a new audience through your station?

10449            MR. GORDON:  Absolutely.

10450            Some of the differences between this station ‑‑ and I am going to throw it over to Gisele Sowa to talk about some of the advertising and some of the advertisers we have spoken to, but the key thing in the differentiation between the format is that 75 percent of the music we will be playing on the station is not currently heard in the marketplace.  We feel that that, in and of itself, will repatriate a lot of listeners back to Essential 107.

10451            Gisele...

10452            MS SOWA:  And it will also provide a new group of listeners to showcase to the advertisers.  If they are not currently listening to anything specifically, we would be able to sell them to new advertisers.

10453            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  I apologize for going on about this, but I am struggling somewhat.  You say that they are thirty to forty‑year‑olds, they are male and they are female.

10454            Give me an example.  If you were to go to an advertiser, how would you define your market to the advertiser to say, "Here they are.  This is what they look like, and they are new to radio"?

10455            How will you do that?

10456            MS SOWA:  I think, to balance off what we offer with The Bounce, they would be the older generation, and we would be able to offer them a full complement package of the demographic.

10457            They would balance off The Bounce.

10458            Does that help?

10459            MR. GORDON:  We have done extensive research into what this audience profile looks like, and Kerry French has provided a lot of analysis of who the audience is and what they are.  Perhaps she could shed some light on it and help to answer your question.

10460            MS FRENCH:  Thanks, Chris.

10461            Commissioner Molnar, this is really a unique audience.  They are, from an age demographic, 25 to 44, and there is a balance between male and female, and they are like‑minded people.

10462            We referenced when Maie was on the air at CFNY, which was this audience 15 years ago.

10463            At the time, I was also selling CFNY, and it was one of the easiest radio stations I have ever had the pleasure of selling.  The reason was, the profile was so distinct.

10464            I look at that audience, which exists in Edmonton, too, and how it has grown in the past 15 years.

10465            Both Maie and I have kept in touch with that audience over the years, because it was so special.  They were all well educated.  They had a different approach to life.  They were into environmentalism before it became mainstream.  They were people who worked in high‑end jobs, even in their early twenties.

10466            They were, as we referenced before, early adopters of the internet.

10467            They were early adopters of technology.  They were the early workers in the technology industries in this country, and the electronics industries.

10468            The profile that we are going to be able to present to advertisers will really give us a heads up in the market, because these people have high disposable incomes, and they are loyal, as they were 15 years ago at CFNY.

10469            They are loyal not only to the radio station, but to the advertisers on the radio station, which doesn't always happen.

10470            It's a great profile.  They have disposable income, and they are the kind of people who most advertisers really want to reach with their message.

10471            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank you for that.

10472            Just to ensure that our record is complete, I would like to ask you, if you would, to compare your format to some of those that exist in the market today.

10473            I would ask, specifically, if you could explain to us the similarities and differences between your format and CHDI, as well as CFBR, the Astral rock format.

10474            MR. GORDON:  Absolutely.  CHDI, SONiC FM, is a modern rock station which attracts a young, predominantly male‑skewed demographic, generally 18 to 34.  Our station is 25 to 44.  It will be attracting a male and female demographic.

10475            The Bear is also a male‑skewed radio station, which attracts an 18 to 44‑year‑old predominantly male audience, with a mix of classic and new music.

10476            Our station is completely different. Seventy‑five percent of the music that will be played on Essential 107 will be different from what is heard on those stations, and what is heard in the market currently.

10477            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Could you also comment on some of the other applicants that we have in front of us with Triple A formats?

10478            I would note, particularly, Evanov, Harvard, Jim Pattison, as well as Don Kay, if you have had a chance to look at their applications and compare what you are proposing to what they are proposing for the market.

10479            MR. GORDON:  Sure.  I would like to ask Rob Farina to jump in here, as well.

10480            There are a lot of adult alternative applications in this proceeding.  Our research found that the appetite, on the whole, for adult alternative was very small, and, obviously, we took a much different approach in looking at what our niche was.

10481            Adult alternative is over here, on an older, male basis, and alternative rock is over here, on a younger, predominantly male basis.  Our station complements those two and fits nicely in the middle.

10482            Rob...

10483            MR. FARINA:  Thanks, Chris.

10484            We have a lot of experience, both in researching markets and researching music formats and operating formats.  We operate an adult alternative station in Windsor, which is, admittedly, a real struggle.

10485            In our research, we are finding that the adult alternative format isn't viable unless it is in a huge market, because the audience is so niche.  So markets like Vancouver and Toronto can sustain that format.

10486            When I make that comment, it is important that I clarify how we did the research.

10487            CHUM Radio was one of the first companies to implement market research into programming our radio stations, and what we found was, when you are testing a music format, giving a description of the format to the audience does not allow you to get beneficial information to get a business plan from, because that information is open to interpretation to each consumer.

10488            If you ask people, "Do you like The Beatles," The Beatles could mean "Helter Skelter" to one person and "Yesterday" to another.

10489            So the way we employ the testing of our music formats is that we play a composite of the radio station, which is an audio clip, where we play clips of the kinds of songs that format would represent.

10490            We then ask people whether this is a radio station they would listen to.

10491            Based on the people who say they would listen to the radio station, we then ask them, "Would this be your favourite radio station?"

10492            When we did that in our testing here, with the adult alternative audience, we only found that 9 percent of the people were the potential audience.  Of course, as the Commission is aware, you never get the full potential audience, but that is the maximum potential of what is there.

10493            We noticed, of the other applicants, that the only one that used a similar methodology in actually playing an audio representation of the radio station was Pattison, and Pattison's research showed an even lower appetite for the format.  Five percent of people said that it would be their first choice of radio station.

10494            With this format, we had 22 percent of respondents who told us that this would be their favourite radio station.

10495            Further to that, asking questions about general perceptions, like "Does this radio station play too many commercials?  Is the music too hard or too soft," that kind of information is very beneficial, but when you are asking about actual music, the artist's name ‑‑

10496            There are two factors at play.  First of all, there is the public persona of the artist.

10497            In the nineties, I know from programming radio that when we used to ask people "What do you think of Madonna?" they would say, "I hate Madonna."  But yet, you would test the music, and Madonna songs would test well.  There is a difference between a song that they like to hear and an impression of the artist.

10498            The other thing at play is, nobody wants to be uninformed.  Chances are, when you name artists, few people know who all of the artists are.  We have jobs and lives and all of that going on, but few people want to feel uninformed.  So, generally, there is a disposition in our research experience of being able to give an answer, so that the respondent doesn't feel like they are uninformed.

10499            I feel that a keynote differentiation is this research, which is the same methodology that we employ in making all of the programming decisions at all CHUM Radio stations, and it has allowed CHUM Radio stations to rank number one or two in their target demos in most markets that we operate in.

10500            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Do you use this format anywhere else?

10501            MR. GORDON:  No, it's a brand new format.  We are developing it from the ground up, based on the research here in Edmonton.  It is an absolutely brand new entity that we are building right from scratch.

10502            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.  Thank you.

10503            I would like to ask about your programming.  You have indicated in your application that, although you plan on providing 125 hours of local programming, you are committed to offering a minimum of 84 hours of local programming per broadcast week.

10504            Is that correct?

10505            MR. GORDON:  That's correct.

10506            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  I am trying to understand what you would propose fits the difference between 84 and 125.

10507            MR. GORDON:  Well, 84 would be the minimum.  We actually propose that 125 hours a week would be local programming.

10508            The hour that we had not provided in here for local programming is a show that Maie was actually going to be producing for the station, but when Maie heard about the station, she loved the station so much that she agreed to be the program director.

10509            So, in effect, there will be 126 hours of local programming.

10510            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  So where you said that you were committed to 84 hours, that's not the case, it is 126 hours of local programming.

10511            MR. GORDON:  That's correct.  Eighty‑four was the minimum, yes.

10512            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank you.

10513            I want to reference something that you mentioned in your supplementary brief, where you spoke about the outcomes.

10514            I don't think that you need to go to it, I can read it for you.

10515            You had indicated that approval of this application would result in a number of outcomes, and you said that it will increase the programming and cultural diversity available in the Edmonton radio market.

10516            I wondered if you could elaborate on how you felt your radio station would increase the cultural diversity in this market.

10517            MR. GORDON:  I would ask James Stuart to respond to that question.

10518            MR. STUART:  Thanks, Chris.

10519            Commissioner Molnar, with Essential 107 what we are going to do is, essentially, build on the success that we already have had in launching The Bounce in the community and making it a part of the community and the fabric of Edmonton.

10520            We are going to be looking at every opportunity to, essentially, bring the culture of this city onto the airwaves.  It is an exceptionally diverse and cultural city in Canada, whether it be the festival season, which is now starting ‑‑ you can't go for a week or a weekend from now until the end of the summer without going into another festival of some sort, whether it be The Fringe or the Heritage Festival or the Folk Music Festival, which is internationally known and, certainly, world famous.

10521            The festival season sort of takes over this city in the summertime and turns it into something that it really is well known for within the area, but certainly outside our boundaries, and a lot of people don't give us credit for that.

10522            What we want to really do is reflect that on a local basis by being involved in every single festival that we can possibly be involved in, especially within the target demographic of 25 to 44.  These people, as mentioned earlier, have kids.  They have families now, and they are going out and taking advantage of the festival season.

10523            The cultural side of the station will reflect what happens in the city on an annual basis, and certainly throughout the summertime, but throughout the entire year we are going to be airing, five times a day, a 60‑second vignette called "Edmonton Essentials", which will highlight what is going on in the cultural/artistic side of the city, whether they be concerts or plays or things that are coming to town of interest for anybody in the artistic world.

10524            MR. GOLDSTEIN:  Commissioner Molnar, I would like to add a comment specifically to the cultural diversity element.

10525            CHUM Radio has been at the forefront of cultural diversity initiatives for many years, and was the first radio group that proposed a cultural diversity best practices piece to the Commission.

10526            One of the things that we wanted to do to, if you will, buttress the application is something that we have had success with in the past, that is, targeting CCD initiatives that would also complement the desire to bring cultural diversity to the fore.

10527            Specifically, in this application, and in the past, we have used our partnerships with AVR and other initiatives, but in this specific application we have built a CCD initiative with the National Campus Community Radio Association for specific, targeted, multicultural advancement initiatives, so that they can build capacity within the community, as well.

10528            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank you for that.

10529            Maybe I will move on, then, to CCD and ask, as it relates to your campus and community initiative, you had proposed to give money to the Community Radio Fund of Canada ‑‑ and I believe this is an issue of timing between when the applications were to be submitted and when we would have put out the decision relating to the Community Radio Fund.

10530            The decision on the Community Radio Fund allowed that, after the first $200,000 of funding, the Community Radio Fund could only retain 5 percent of revenues in excess of the $200,000 for administration.

10531            I wondered if you would be willing to obtain a letter from the Fund attesting to the fact that they would reinvest the difference between the 12 percent initially proposed and the 5 percent, and have that reinvested into the programs of your Fund.

10532            MR. GOLDSTEIN:  We have that letter, and we will submit it to Staff.

10533            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank you very much.

10534            While I don't have other questions related to CCD, I note that you certainly have a very complete proposal for that.

10535            It was complete, so I have no questions.

10536            I would like to ask a more open question with respect to programming and the format that you are proposing.

10537            I wonder if you could tell me why you believe that the format would be the best choice and provide the greatest degree of programming diversity to serve the Edmonton market.

10538            MR. GORDON:  We believe that the station is a brand new entity.  It creates a new and very influential musical sound that will repatriate people back to listening to radio.

10539            As Maie was mentioning, a lot of these listeners have gone to different places to find the music they really love, and this station, based on the research we have done, will absolutely repatriate those people, to make it their favourite radio station.

10540            We firmly believe that local radio works, and when you provide a service that has local colour, local announcers, local personalities, local business, weather, traffic, and which speaks to those concerns, those people will come back to radio, and they will make that radio station their first choice.

10541            We believe that the audience is underserved, and we will bring them back to listening to radio.

10542            MR. FARINA:  I think the uniqueness of the format is an important part of this, too.  We analyzed all of the music played in the market of Edmonton for four weeks, using Mediabase, from April 27 to May 25.  We looked at the top 1,000 songs spinned in the market.  That represented 37,485 times that those top 1,000 songs were spun.

10543            Of those spins, 14 percent of them were titles that Essential alternative would play.  That represented only 11.9 percent of the spins in the market, or 4,463 spins.

10544            I think what is of note, though, is that these titles didn't come solely from The Bear or SONiC.  Actually, a lot of the new and emerging titles, and some of the older titles, came from stations such as JOE FM or even The Bounce.

10545            What we are finding is, the alternative music scene in Canada, a great segment of it, is made up of artists who don't really fit into a format right now.

10546            I want to use the example of Feist.  I know that the Commission is sick and tired of hearing every applicant talk about Feist, but she is an important artist to talk about, in that, when Feist's record first came out, there was no airplay on Feist.  They released a single called "One Evening", it didn't get any airplay, and the record was actually out for a couple of years before she got a little bit of airplay.

10547            Then, with the second album and the Apple commercial, Feist's career broke right open.

10548            This is the kind of format that an artist like Feist would get airplay on ‑‑

10549            I should not have put a candy in my mouth and tried to speak.

10550            This is the kind of format that an artist like Feist would get support on at the ground level, and it is targeted to an audience that is really engaged by new music.

10551            I have decided to shut up and eat this candy.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

10552            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thanks for that.

10553            I have a candy in my mouth, too, so we will both be slurring on the transcript.

10554            MR. FARINA:  You are managing it much better than I am.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

10555            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  You put into your financial projections that 35 percent of your revenue would be generated from existing radio stations.

10556            Listening to what you are telling me ‑‑ well, I am not going to presuppose your answer.

10557            Why don't you tell me where within the system you feel ‑‑ what stations do you feel that 35 percent would come from?

10558            MR. GORDON:  I am going to ask Kerry French to answer that question.

10559            MS FRENCH:  This is a very difficult question to answer, and there are a couple of reasons why it is difficult.

10560            Radio advertising and audience levels are kind of moving targets.  When we are on the air ‑‑ that will be a year or so from now.

10561            The audience that we see right now will move around from station to station.  The advertising revenue will also move around from station to station.

10562            So to get really specific as to where the money is going to come from is quite difficult, but let me also explain that the growth of radio advertising has been amazing in Edmonton over the past several years.

10563            We are looking at ‑‑ I think the figure is ‑‑ rolling 52 weeks, according to tram, the market is sitting at $82 million, which is $7 million more than the previous year.

10564            This year we are on track to hit, probably, $86 million to $87 million.

10565            We expect that this will continue for the next couple of years, and a lot of our revenue will come from that growth.

10566            The impact that we will have on the other radio stations is more that we will slow their growth curve a little, rather than actually take money away from them.

10567            Their increase might be a little less than it would have been if we weren't on the air.

10568            The particular stations that we are most likely going to affect going forward are the top stations in the market, particularly in the broader buying demographic of adults 25 to 54.

10569            Those top stations are JOE, The Bear, CISN Country, CHED and EZ Rock.

10570            They are the top five, and particularly with national advertisers.  When they buy a market like Edmonton, they don't buy just one radio station, they will buy three, four or five, to reach ‑‑ usually their target is around 50 percent of the market, and there is a pool of money that will go to reach that 50 percent.

10571            It is not that a certain part is apportioned to CHED or a certain part is apportioned to The Bear, there is the total amount of money, and each of the radio stations puts a presentation together to get part of that money.

10572            So we are going to get part of that money, and where it actually comes from is difficult to quantify, but some of those stations who are going to be on the buy with us may get a little less.

10573            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank you.  That's a very fair answer, and it answered, in part, my next question as well.

10574            You have projected very positive revenues coming from this station, some $30 million over a seven‑year licence term of revenues, with a relatively small impact on incumbents.

10575            My question was going to be:  How does that play out?

10576            How do you see being able to generate such a significant amount of revenue with such a minimal impact on incumbents?

10577            I will let you answer.  I think that perhaps you have given me part of the answer already, but ‑‑

10578            MR. GORDON:  I think that, in the early part of the licence term, we are talking about 1.2 percent of the total market revenues in the first year.

10579            The majority of those dollars come in Years 5, 6 and 7.  We feel that early on, projecting to make $1.5 million in Year 1 ‑‑ over the term, the majority of that figure comes in Years 5, 6 and 7.

10580            MS FRENCH:  Commissioner Molnar, if I could add to that answer, when we put together our revenue projections, there are several ways we approach it.  One of the ways is to look at the available revenue in the market and what our projected audience levels are going to be over the licence term.

10581            We apply, then, a power ratio, which is really the difference between the percent share of tuning that you have and the percent share of revenue in the market.

10582            And we see that power ratio from a lot of experience.  We have tracked power ratios in all of our radio stations, and the ones we have launched, and we see how, generally, the power ratios grow over the seven‑year licence term.

10583            So we apply that factor and come up with revenue projections based on it.

10584            And then we do it a second way.  It's kind of a top‑down/bottom‑up methodology, where we will look at historical sell‑out figures, particularly with our new launching radio stations.

10585            It takes time to develop relationships with clients, so, in the initial stages, you don't sell all of the inventory you have available.  You start to grow in the percentage of sell‑out over time.

10586            In the first year, because we have audience projections, we can translate those into actual average quarter‑hour figures and rating point figures, and we know what the market can bear because, not only do we have a radio station in the market, but it is generally understood how the market is trading.

10587            So we get from that the kind of rate that we can expect to get from our clients in the first year, and as that grows.

10588            When we put those two methodologies together, if they are within a reasonable tolerance level, that gives us a lot of comfort that we are predicting the right level.

10589            In this case, with Essential 107, Gisele, who is the General Sales Manager, and I both looked at revenue projections, and we did them separately, without each of us looking at each other.

10590            So, when we got them together, we kind of joked and laughed about it.  She said, "I can't believe how close these are."

10591            So, in this case, there were three ways we did them, so we are pretty comfortable that we can achieve these projections.

10592            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank you.

10593            With your research methodology, is there any impact at all on how many entrants would be licensed here today?

10594            MR. GORDON:  Our projections were based on the licensing of one station.

10595            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Having listened to what has been occurring here this week, and speaking of the economic prosperity that is here, and how significant is the growth, what is your expectation, or what do you believe the market could actually afford as regards new licensees?

10596            MR. GORDON:  Based on the growth in the market in the last three years, we feel that the market could support three new entrants, one of them being an ethnic station.

10597            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Just one more thing.  You mentioned in your opening remarks, and you have also commented within your application about the issue of competitive imbalance.  You noted in your opening remarks the impact that has on your ability to be successful in national advertising.

10598            I wonder if you could explain to me what other issues there are related to competitive balance between you and the other entrants here in Edmonton.

10599            MR. GORDON:  Sure.  When you have a consolidated environment, there are generally three issues that you are facing when you are a stand‑alone station and competing with other players.

10600            The first one is on the programming level.  Other players in the market can adjust the formats on any one of their stations.

10601            For example, if they have four stations, they can easily adjust the format of one of those stations to either get in your way or to even stop you from growing.

10602            Recently, right here in Edmonton, one of the companies changed the format of one of their underperforming stations in light of this hearing.

10603            There is also the issue of efficiencies and synergies.  When you are a stand‑alone station, you have all of the back office and all of the administrative costs that go with one station.  When you have more than one station, you can spread those costs over a number of other stations.

10604            Lastly, and, of course, the most important disadvantage is in sales.  From a national sales point of view, I could give you an example of something that took place three or four weeks ago, when a national car manufacturer came into the market and was looking at our station and looking at another station, which had, basically, the same demographic profile and the same audience numbers.

10605            The other company was able to offer substantially more in order to lure that business from the agency.  They were able to offer a live remote broadcast on one of their other stations.  They were able to offer a business interview on their news and talk station.  They were able to offer unsold inventory on a station that was not performing as well as their other three stations.

10606            If I was the agency, I would buy those other stations and not buy our station.

10607            That is the biggest disadvantage from a sales point of view.

10608            Gisele could give you some examples on a retail basis of how that affects us, as well.

10609            MS SOWA:  The same thing happens locally.  We will be invited to present our station, as all of the other stations in the market will be, and we will put together a great presentation ‑‑ which happened recently, and we were not awarded the contract because one of the clusters was able to offer 4:1 ‑‑ four of their radio stations versus one of our stations ‑‑ where they can offset the extra promotional time, and even the cost to do business.

10610            That is one case.  There are other cases where the clusters act as sort of a mini agency for the client, and will, I guess, not allow our reps any contact with the buyer.

10611            That is created, I guess, because they want to be the marketing expert, but we really have very little control over whether or not there is a change in the market if we can't really present our case.

10612            That happens quite often in the market.

10613            Our team started three and a half years ago, all very new to radio.  All of the reps have worked very hard to make inroads and create a difference in the marketplace, and become somebody who will super‑serve the client.

10614            So they have done a good job, but they are still being blocked out in certain areas and not able to really showcase what the station could do.

10615            With two stations, they would be able to bring more information and more benefits to the client, and, again, continue with that super service and be able to offer more and to compete better.

10616            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank you.

10617            I just find that whole issue a bit troubling, as you see who is before us through this hearing.

10618            As you know, there are some brand new entrants, there are a number of regional players who are looking to enter the market with an initial station, and I just wonder how significant an issue this really is in competing in what is a highly concentrated market here in Edmonton.

10619            MR. GORDON:  It is an issue.  When you are a stand‑alone station in a major market competing against consolidated competitors, it is a more difficult path to travel than being in a cluster that has more than one station.

10620            MR. GOLDSTEIN:  If I could add, Commissioner, the Commission itself has grappled with this issue for a long time.  It presented the issue itself in the Commercial Radio Policy in 1998, when it first announced the new policy, and it raised it in several licensing decisions where there was an incumbent like ourselves who had one FM station in the market and was trying to compete against multi‑station groups.

10621            It is a difficult balance, but one that the Commission has grappled with itself.

10622            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Fair enough.  I know that we have had some discussions.

10623            Let me ask about the efficiencies and synergies, and how this has all played out into your financials.

10624            You have a financial picture here, which I assume is based on the expectation of two stations, so stronger, more aggressive, or more successful sales.

10625            Is that right?

10626            Could you tell me what the impact would be of these synergies and the strengthened presence in the market, and does that show up within your financial projections?

10627            MR. GORDON:  It is in the financials.

10628            The synergies that you gain in a consolidated environment are in areas such as administration, finance, traffic, creative production and engineering.

10629            The separate and distinct parts of those are always in programming.

10630            For Essential 107, we would have 14 full‑time programming people who would be generating the on‑air content and the on‑air product of the station.

10631            In total, there would be 22 full‑time, new employees dedicated to Essential 107.

10632            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank you, those are my questions.

10633            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cugini.

10634            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you, Madam Chair, and good morning.

10635            Ms Pauts, I have to thank you for taking me down memory lane and reminding me of my Friday nights at the Silver Crown.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

10636            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And I am only going to admit to piercings in my earlobes.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

10637            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So I get the format, in other words.

10638            What I am curious to know, though, is, you do operate The Bounce here in Edmonton, and I know it is a completely different format ‑‑ or is it?

10639            Do you think that if you were licensed for Essential 107.1 you would have to make any adjustments to the playlist on The Bounce?

10640            MR. GORDON:  Absolutely not.  The Bounce is a highly targeted, youth‑based station, slightly more female than male.

10641            We feel that the youth market in Edmonton is very well served with The Bounce, as well as SONiC.  In the last round of licensing, both stations were granted licences and have done a tremendous job in repatriating the youth market.

10642            Statistically, since those stations came on three or four years ago, youth tuning in the market has actually increased by 4 percent.  BBM shows that in other markets across Canada youth tuning is down by 9.

10643            So we feel that the market is very well served, and licensing Essential 107 would make zero changes to The Bounce.

10644            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Let's talk a little bit more about the youth market.

10645            I am just going to ask you:  Do you think you are cutting yourself short by not doing something to get the youth ‑‑ the younger section of the demo to listen to this music?

10646            I will give you an anecdote.  My niece looked at the box cover of the Live Aid DVD and said, "Oh, my God, Auntie Rita, all of these people performed at this one concert?"

10647            She is only 22.

10648            Is there something that this station will do, either through its spoken word or through its music programming, to capture the younger demo?

10649            MR. GORDON:  When we look at the research, 25 to 44 is where 60 percent of the audience resides.  There is a large portion that resides below 25, and a smaller portion that resides above 25.

10650            The things that we will be doing on the air will be a lot different from what other stations will be doing.  It will be a very music‑intensive format.  The personalities on the air will be extremely well schooled in music.

10651            You mentioned the Live Aid box set.  Our on‑air personalities will have incredible knowledge about those artists and about those concerts.

10652            Maie can certainly speak to how we will be speaking to younger people about the music we play and the lifestyle of the radio station.

10653            MS PAUTS:  I think the interesting thing about this particular format, and why we are saying that we are targeting 25 to 44, is that it's not age that exclusively defines this audience, it's a cyclograph.

10654            When we are saying that, yes, me, as a 40‑year‑old, can totally remember and appreciate all of those artists on the Live Aid CD, so can an 18‑year‑old.

10655            As a matter of fact, I have a teenager at home, and when she saw the potential of this opportunity, she was like, "Oh, my gosh, if only we could have a station like this in Toronto, as well."

10656            I feel that it speaks to a broader spectrum than perhaps what we were initially targeting here on paper.

10657            That being said, when we are talking about cyclographs, these people, whether they are 18 or 55, have a passion for new music.  Of course, we will be featuring an awful lot of new music.  We will be talking about who is coming to town ‑‑ to Edmonton.

10658            Like I said, Teenage Head was here Sunday night.  I couldn't go ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

10659            MS PAUTS:  ‑‑ but I am sure that if you went to that Teenage Head concert, there was an equal balance of people that ranged in age from ‑‑

10660            What's the drinking age, 19?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

10661            MS PAUTS:  ‑‑ 19 to 60 in the audience.

10662            That is why I feel that this particular format will definitely appeal to a young audience.

10663            And when you were talking about the kinds of things that we will be speaking about, the passion that we older folks have for the music hasn't diminished.  It is on par with the passion that I feel the youth have for their music, and that will be reflected in our spoken word throughout the day.

10664            But this audience, even when we were young, was passionate about so many other things, as well.  Live Aid was about poverty and feeding people in Africa, and it was put together by people who were in their twenties at the time.

10665            Three years later, at Wembley, was the concert for Nelson Mandela, which addressed the anti‑apartheid issue.  It was put together by Jerry Dammers, who was at the helm of a SCA band called The Specials.

10666            When we are talking about this kind of audience, they are young, they are old, they are passionate, they care about music, they care about social issues, and this will all be reflected in Essential 107.

10667            MR. FARINA:  Further to that, one of the things we haven't spent a lot of time talking about is the interactive component of the radio station.  CHUM is in the process right now of unveiling a sizeable interactive campaign, some of which the Commission heard about in Kelowna, and it is going to be applied here to The Bounce, and applied to Essential.

10668            With these components, we always target them directly to the specific audience, and there are five main components to our interactive platform.

10669            One of them is listener reflection.  We need to give the listener access to in‑depth local news and information, the opportunity to upload their own news, community events, post commentaries and stories on a variety of platforms ‑‑ message boards, blogs, podcasts.

10670            The second is music discovery, which is very important and very key.

10671            Technology allows us now to finally assess listeners' personal music preferences, so we will have the opportunity of listeners being able to create their own mixed tapes online, of being able to introduce them to new music which is really fine tuned to their personal tastes, and be able to recommend ‑‑ as I said, recommend those artists to them, and be able to stream that new music, and also music before it is released.

10672            We are in the process of our content deals with all of the major labels, and also representing a lot of the independent labels, to be able to access audio and video content and have it streamed on demand.

10673            The third is personalization.  Very important.  The ability to really personalize their website.

10674            That ties into the next part, portability.  We are building our platform on an RSS platform, which stands for "Real Simple Syndication".

10675            What RSS will allow us to do is ‑‑ it allows the listener to embed live streaming of the radio station or components of the radio station onto their Facebook page, or MySpace page.

10676            We need to take the radio station wherever they are, both online and, secondly, wherever they are physically.

10677            We are building mobile platforms, so there will be components of the radio station that will be available via mobile phones and BlackBerrys.

10678            The fifth and very important part is, we view radio as the original social networking hub, and we feel now that technology allows us to bridge that gap, once again, with the listeners in new and enhanced ways.

10679            Listeners will have the opportunity to interact online, on a variety of platforms, on a variety of topics.

10680            They will also be able to connect with friends and other music fans ‑‑ things as simple as, when they go online and see that Tegan and Sara are coming to town, they will have an icon, so they will know that three of their friends have already bought tickets and will be able to go to the show.

10681            It is a very robust interactive approach that we are taking in marrying our terrestrial radio with interactivity, and we feel that will have tremendous appeal with the audience of Essential, who were the pioneers of the internet age, in its earliest times, as well as the youth market.

10682            We need to really understand that while there will be some appeal to this format among youth, the real wheelhouse will be 25 to 44.

10683            There is youth appeal to the classic rock format, as well, but, really, when you look at the breakdown of the audience, the real hub of it is that 25 to 44 base, or 30 to 40 in the case of Essential.

10684            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.  My next question was going to be on your new media plan, so thank you for that.

10685            That's a good thing.  Thank you for your answers.

10686            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I have a few questions.  I don't want to let you go without making sure that I understand everything you are telling me.

10687            First, I would like to go back to Mr. Farina.

10688            I think the question that Commissioner Molnar was asking was if you could explain the difference between adult alternative and the Triple A.

10689            If I understood your research, you thought ‑‑ I am repeating what is my understanding of what you said.

10690            The method of the research, or the research approach, was very significant in the results that were attained.

10691            I would ask you if you wouldn't mind explaining to me further, were your comments with respect only to the adult alternative format that Pattison is proposing, or, as well, to the Triple A?

10692            MR. FARINA:  They were to the Triple A and, also, the Yerxa application.

10693            I think that when you describe a format to somebody and you say, "How do you feel about a radio station that is going to play a wide variety of music not currently available on the radio, and that is going to feature artists from wide genres," it is easy to get a positive answer.

10694            In our experience, because we have been working with research for a long time, where we really get an accurate reflection on how we are going to affect consumer behaviour is if we play an audio composite of the radio station.  It's about 40 seconds long, and in that 40 seconds we play about six or seven song hooks.  The hook is the memorable part of the song.

10695            And please don't ask me to sing for you.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

10696            MR. FARINA:  From that we are able to assess:  Would you listen to that radio station.

10697            If the answer is yes, we then say:  Would that be your favourite radio station.

10698            We look at the audience potential only on the people who say that would be their favourite radio station, because we can't build a business plan on maybe.

10699            We also can't build a business plan on skewing a question that plays on human nature, on being agreeable.

10700            In our findings, the only accurate way that we can assess the hole in a market for a music format, or even further to that, a music type, is by actually playing that type of music or that type of format in a composite.

10701            Another example that I would throw out, which is recent, is the Dixie Chicks, from about four years ago.  When you asked people about the Dixie Chicks, there was this ‑‑

10702            And it wasn't even a case of people being really well versed, but there was this kind of negative feeling about the group.  But yet you would play a clip from one of the Dixie Chicks hits, or some of their hits, and you would get more feedback about that song.

10703            Essentially, what we need to do on radio is, we have to make sure that when we play that song, people aren't going to turn off the dial, and we can't get that from their impression of an artist's name or a description of a format which is open to each individual's interpretation, it needs to be on a real‑life example, and on a music format a real‑life example is actually playing a selection of the music and having them tell us.

10704            THE CHAIRPERSON:  When you looked at the others' research, they didn't use the live‑clip approach?

10705            MR. FARINA:  Pattison did.

10706            THE CHAIRPERSON:  But their conclusion was 5 percent.

10707            MR. FARINA:  Correct.

10708            THE CHAIRPERSON:  In theirs, did they identify the format you are proposing?

10709            MR. FARINA:  They had a brief descriptor of the format, but they played a 40‑second composite and based the rating on feedback on that audio sample of the radio station.

10710            MR. GORDON:  I don't believe they researched the format that we are proposing today.

10711            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Because yours is truly unique.

10712            MR. GORDON:  It's different, that's right.

10713            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Why "Essential"?  What does that tell me?

10714            MR. GORDON:  Rob?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

10715            THE CHAIRPERSON:  I need to listen?

10716            I think you are telling me that.

10717            MR. FARINA:  We have a history, again, of developing a lot of new formats, and when we were looking at this format, it was in conversation with ‑‑ talking about this music base that kind of disappeared from modern rock radio.

10718            I could make a parallel in how formats evolve with the country format.

10719            In the early nineties, there was this new wave of music, this new country that came out, and radio formats decided to throw out all of the heritage country artists.  You weren't going to hear Merle Haggard or Willie Nelson, they were going to be focused on this new country/pop sound.

10720            Similarly, the alternative format changed from alternative to alternative rock or modern rock.  So all of these diverse artists that used to be on the format disappeared.

10721            With the constant evolution of listeners' tastes and music tastes, we looked at this huge music base that, really, had disappeared from the airwaves, but still had great appeal, coupled with the contemporary sound coming from artists all over the world, but even, specifically, here in Canada.  We looked at a lot of the alternative artists coming out now, who don't really fit into a radio format, unless they are able to break through with a hit record.

10722            Interestingly enough, Alanis Morissette has a new record out right now that was released about a month ago.  Her new record is getting no airplay here in Edmonton.

10723            She is an example of an artist who, if the record becomes a big hit, she might get some airplay on AC or hot AC radio, but this is an artist who would be getting airplay right at the ground level, because the audience is still very interested in not only an artist like Alanis Morissette and what she is doing now, but all of the new and emerging artists around today who don't really have a home on the radio.

10724            I am talking about everybody from Stars to Patrick Watson to Emily Haines, Creature, out of Montreal ‑‑

10725            Buck 65 is another great example.

10726            There are these quirky alternative artists, who have great fan bases, but their music is exposed, predominantly, through word of mouth or the internet.  They fail to really find a home on a format, and a home that will support those projects at the ground level, and not wait for ‑‑

10727            I will use the example of the artist Lites.  She is 18 now, and has signed a deal with Universal.  The record is coming out.

10728            Lites got exposed through a television ad campaign.  That is her claim to fame.

10729            It would be great if all of the emerging artists could get on Old Navy campaigns or Apple campaigns to get that exposure, but they can't.

10730            This is a format that not only is able to showcase those artists effectively, but showcase them in a really focused way.

10731            There is one thing about playing these artists three times over the course of a week.  That's not how a career is built.  A career needs to snowball, and in order to snowball you have to make sure that the record is being played enough times so that people are going to start to hear it, get familiar with it, and as the familiarity builds the rotation of that record builds, and the notoriety of the artist builds with it.

10732            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I think I have a better picture now.  And I think that, probably, I should have been putting more of the emphasis on "alternative", rather than ‑‑

10733            I was looking at it and I was wondering "Why Essential", but I can appreciate that it is alternative music ‑‑ music that listeners don't normally hear.

10734            MR. FARINA:  Correct.

10735            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  I have it.

10736            MR. GORDON:  Rob just liked the word "Essential", that's all.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

10737            THE CHAIRPERSON:  I was on the "Essential" hearing panel, so maybe I am not so enamoured with it.

10738            I have a question on the advertising side.  I notice in your remarks that you say you are easily left out of national advertising buys.  Is there more to expand on that, other than what you have just said about when you are competing against four stations in a market?

10739            MR. GORDON:  Gisele, do you want to jump in here?

10740            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Four stations owned by one party ‑‑

10741            MR. GORDON:  Yes.  Obviously, when you have more products to offer an advertiser, you are automatically at an advantage over a single offering.

10742            And that works both ways.  We have seen it in all markets that we operate in.

10743            You have to be very, very diligent.  When you are a stand‑alone, you have to be great programmers, you have to be great operators ‑‑ not that anybody in this licence proceeding is not, but you are at an extreme disadvantage because the other people can circle the wagons around you and take away things that you have from a sales point of view, but also from a programming point of view.

10744            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

10745            I noticed on the financial end of it that you are projecting substantial losses in the first three years, and then it takes off quite quickly after that.

10746            I noticed that your programming expenses, for example, are considerably higher than some of the others, and I am just wondering, if you had a chance to look at that, if you would care to comment.

10747            MR. GORDON:  We haven't really looked at the other players, but what we do know is what it costs to put on the kind of radio station that we know this is going to be.

10748            And because it is very personality driven, it is very much a station that will be requiring people who have a high level of music and a high level of connectivity with the audience.

10749            We are going to be live and local around the clock, so our programming costs are reflective of that.

10750            THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is based on your experience.

10751            I notice that Canada‑wide it's 24 percent of gross revenues, and 36 percent for Alberta, and it's 69 percent for yours.

10752            Even with the competing applicants, it is quite a bit higher than the others, except for Pattison.

10753            I guess the answer is, that's what it takes.

10754            MR. GORDON:  That's what we believe ‑‑ the quality of the station is totally dependent on the people.

10755            Salaries and those associated costs are the number one expense in operating a radio station, and we know what it's going to take to put on a station that's going to compel people who are currently being underserved.  It's going to cost us a significant amount of money.

10756            MS FRENCH:  If I could add to that, in the first couple of years, particularly, there is a lot of money allocated toward marketing and advertising.  In order to break through, particularly in a market like Edmonton, which is so competitive ‑‑ and there are a fair number of radio stations which are constantly spending marketing dollars.  In order to get your message out to people that the radio station is here, you have to spend a great deal of money in regular advertising, in street marketing, in all kinds of ways.

10757            We know from launching several radio stations across the country what it takes in the marketing and promotion area in order to do it right.

10758            That's why, particularly in the first couple of years, the costs are very high.

10759            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for that.

10760            I notice that you have broken out interactivity as an expense line on your projections.  Are there revenues associated with your internet activities that are included in the revenue, or is it just as it reflects your ability to sell and generate radio advertising?

10761            There is no equivalent line in the revenue section.

10762            MR. GORDON:  In early days there would be very limited revenue, but we are obviously hoping that our online component is something that, down the road, will generate cash flow for us.

10763            THE CHAIRPERSON:  I gather from Ms French's remarks earlier that, because she and Ms Sowa came up with the same revenue projections, based on the way you had traditionally been doing things, you probably didn't anticipate any increased factor for internet‑generated revenues.

10764            MS FRENCH:  There are no internet revenues included in the projections.

10765            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

10766            Legal?

10767            MS LEHOUX:  As a follow‑up question to your undertaking to provide a letter to the Commission confirming that the Community Radio Fund of Canada will reinvest the excess 7 percent in the Alberta Cultural Diversity Program, could you provide that by the end of the day tomorrow, so that we can complete the public record?

10768            MS GIBSON:  We, in fact, have it here.  We will provide it today.

10769            MS LEHOUX:  Thank you very much.

10770            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, counsel.

10771            Mr. Gordon, this is your two minutes.

10772            MR. GORDON:  Thank you.

10773            I have heard a lot of talk in these proceedings about local and regional and national, and one of the things that struck me is that we are, here in Edmonton, as local as it gets.

10774            To my right, Gisele and James have over 30 years of combined experience in this marketplace, and are currently operating a station here in Edmonton that we are extremely proud of, called The Bounce.  Because of that, I would like James to summarize our application.

10775            Thank you.

10776            MR. STUART:  Thanks, Chris.

10777            Madam Chair, Commissioners and Commission Staff, we want to thank you for giving us the time today to present our proposal for a truly new concept for the Edmonton radio scene.  Based on our local research and experience in the market, we are confident that Essential 107 will make a fundamental difference to a cross‑section of Edmontonians, men and women, aged 25 to 44, who currently don't have a home to call their own on the radio dial.

10778            Essential 107 is a fresh, new, music‑based format that is not on the dial in Edmonton.  At least 75 percent of the songs we will air on the station are not currently available in this market.

10779            Essential 107 will provide tailored spoken word programming on‑air and a portal to a rich online community, giving our sophisticated audience the window into news and current affairs that they so desperately want.

10780            Essential 107 will deliver CCD initiatives of $10 million, an amount that is unmatched in this competitive process, both in quantum and potential impact.

10781            Our local management team has an outstanding track record of building urban CHR stars, and we look forward to doing it again for emerging Canadian Essential alternative artists.

10782            The commitments in our application are strategic.  They are not random or symbolic, they are driven by our significant experience and success here on the ground.

10783            Creating true diversity in the radio market means increasing radio's audience by bringing listeners back to the medium.  People talk about repatriating listeners to radio.  In Edmonton, we have made it happen, and with Essential 107 we will make it happen again.

10784            We know how to identify an underserved audience, who the skeptics thought was lost to the internet and MP3s, and provide them with a personal experience that makes radio relevant again.

10785            On behalf of Gisele and myself, and our entire local team, who are here today in Edmonton, we sincerely hope that this is only the beginning.

10786            While we have had our successes, the road hasn't been easy.  Despite strong and committed resources, we are up against powerful station clusters in one of Canada's most competitive markets.

10787            Licensing Essential 107 will level the playing field, while enabling us to reach a new level of service to Edmontonians that a single station operator would be hard‑pressed to achieve.

10788            We look forward to having the opportunity to build another successful example of local radio doing what it does best, proudly supporting the community it serves.

10789            We hope the Commission will agree that Essential 107 will be an exciting addition to the Edmonton radio scene.

10790            Thank you.

10791            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Stuart, Mr. Gordon, and your team.

10792            We will take a break now for 15 minutes, and reconvene around 10:50.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1035 / Suspension à 1035

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1058 / Reprise à 1058

10793            THE SECRETARY:  For the record, Frank Torres, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated, has filed, in response to undertakings, additional information with respect to share and economic impact calculations.

10794            Also for the record, Don Kay, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated, has filed, in response to undertakings, the number of hours of Category 3 music that will be broadcast by the proposed station each broadcast week.

10795            These documents have been added to the public record, and copies are available in the public examination room.

10796            We will now proceed with Item 24, which is an application by Harvard Broadcasting Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Edmonton.

10797            The new station would operate on Frequency 107.1 MHz, Channel 296C1, with an effective radiated power of 40,000 watts, non‑directional antenna, antenna height of 272 metres.

10798            Appearing for the Applicant is Bruce Cowie.

10799            Please introduce your colleagues.  You will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

10800            MR. COWIE:  Thank you, and good morning, Madam Chair, Commissioners and Commission Staff.

10801            Before beginning our presentation, I would like to spend a few minutes introducing our management team, who will present to you an exciting new radio format, Jenn FM.

10802            My name is Bruce Cowie.  I began my career in radio in 1956, and the world didn't treat me all that well.  In the first 30 days, they had the largest shake‑up in the history of the Russian Presidium, of which no names were familiar to me at all, and unpronounceable.

10803            Not long after that the Russian army rolled into Budapest, and for some reason the British bombed the Suez Canal.  I can't remember why, but it happened in that first 30 days.

10804            I began my career in Saskatoon, and now in Edmonton, this is a bit of a homecoming for me, having lived and worked in Edmonton from 1988 to 1994, when I served as Vice‑President and General Manager of CFRN Radio and Television.

10805            Following my time at CFRN, I became the President of Electrohome Broadcasting in Kitchener, Ontario, and then served as the Executive Vice‑President and Chief Operating Officer of the CTV Television Network.

10806            I have been overseeing Harvard's western regional growth strategy since 1998, and it is my great pleasure to introduce to you the management team that will lead our expansion into the critically important Edmonton market.

10807            Seated in the middle, in the front row, is Karen Broderick.  Karen is Harvard's National Sales Manager.  She has over 20 years of experience in the radio business, in various capacities, all with Harvard Broadcasting.

10808            Karen, who grew up here in Edmonton, will serve as General Manager of Jenn FM, if we are successful in receiving your approval to introduce Jenn to Edmonton.

10809            Seated to Karen's left is Debra McLaughlin of Strategic Inc.  Debra is well known to the community and has over 20 years of experience in the radio, television and media industries.

10810            Debra conducted our market research, and was instrumental in the design of the Jenn FM format.

10811            Next to Debra is Pam Cholak.  Pam is a life‑long resident of Edmonton, where she owns and operates a very successful government relations firm.

10812            Prior to starting her own business, Pam held several important positions with the Alberta government, including serving as Executive Assistant to the Minister of Energy, and Director of Special Projects for Alberta's Department of Labour.

10813            Pam was instrumental in gathering feedback on Jenn, and has agreed to chair Jenn FM's Local Advisory Committee.

10814            We are delighted that Pam has agreed to join our team.

10815            Seated to Karen's right is Valerie Hochschild.  Valerie has held positions in radio stations in both Canada and the U.S.  She has worked in the Triple A format in at least three stations, and helped us develop the programming paradigms for Jenn FM.

10816            Beside Valerie is Tina Svedahl, Vice‑President of Investments for Harvard.

10817            Tina holds a Certified Management Accounting designation, and has been with the Hill companies for over eight years.

10818            Tina plays a key role in financial management, strategic and business planning for all of the Hill family companies.

10819            Next to Tina is Rosanne Hill‑Blaisdell, a Vice‑President and Managing Director with Harvard.

10820            Rosanne is a fourth‑generation member of the Hill family.

10821            With a B.A. in Broadcast Journalism from Gonzaga University, and an M.B.A. from the University of Manitoba, Rosanne embarked on a career that has spanned many disciplines, including several years of experience as a reporter on CJBN‑TV Kenora, and CKCK‑TV Regina, and over 20 years as a freelance writer.

10822            Rosanne has management experience in the commercial banking, investment management and commercial real estate sectors, and her role in the Hill companies is an integral part in the development of Harvard's western regional growth strategy.

10823            Seated on my right, here in the back row, is Michael Olstrom, Harvard's Station Group Manager.

10824            Michael is a career broadcaster, with 28 years of experience in the industry.  Michael oversees all of the Harvard radio stations, and was responsible for the launch of X 92.9 in Calgary, Mix 103.7 FM in Fort McMurray, and, most recently, Wired 96.3 FM in Saskatoon.

10825            Michael understands what it takes to compete as a stand‑alone operator in a major radio market, as evidenced by the success of X 92.9 in Calgary.

10826            Finally, seated on my left is Rob Malcolmson, a partner in Goodmans LLP, and our legal counsel.

10827            Rob has specialized in communications law for close to 20 years, providing strategic advice to radio and television clients in regulatory matters, strategy and business development.

10828            Madam Chair and Commissioners, you have before you an experienced management team, with the track record, passion and resources necessary to bring a new voice to Edmonton radio, a voice that is not heard in the market today.

10829            Before we begin, I wanted to make the Commission aware that we have just concluded successful negotiations with APTN to extend the mentoring project that we currently operate in Saskatoon, Fort McMurray and Calgary to both of our Red Deer and Edmonton licences, should we be successful.

10830            We had hoped to make this public prior to the hearings, but the details of such a program take time, and it is only now that we have extended the arrangements.

10831            We are now ready to begin our presentation.

10832            Karen...

10833            MS BRODERICK:  We are here today with an exciting concept for radio, a concept that is innovative, consumer driven, and unique to the market, a concept that we call Jenn FM.

10834            Jenn will have a core audience of women aged 35 to 54.  As the data in the chart attached to this presentation demonstrates, the spring 2008 BBM show that tuning for almost all demographics in Edmonton was up relative to the fall of 2004, but for the fourth year in a row, tuning among women 35 to 64 was well below the levels achieved in the fall of 2004.

10835            The greatest decline has occurred among women 35 to 64.  Time spent with radio by women 35 to 64 is down from 22.3 hours per week in 2004 to 20.5 hours in 2008.

10836            Hand‑in‑hand with the loss of hours spent with radio in Edmonton, a loss of reach has also occurred.  This loss of tuning is significant, because it signals a real sea change in the use of radio.

10837            Jenn is designed to address this decline in tuning among Edmonton's women, a group that represents 521,000 people, 276,000 of which are 35‑plus.

10838            Debra...

10839            MS McLAUGHLIN:  Harvard retained Strategic Inc. to research the Edmonton market and assist in the design of a format that would respond to the decline of tuning that Karen just talked about.

10840            We conducted extensive market research, including a complete review of syndicated tuning and spin data, two sets of focus groups, and a consumer demand survey.

10841            The research revealed that listener observations and reactions to radio programming had striking similarity with other markets we have studied.

10842            It is quite clear from the focus groups that women, in particular, are bored with high‑repeat formats that offer little variety of artists, and represent only a small portion of artist catalogues.

10843            They are tired of having to switch stations to create a listening experience that encompasses the range of music that interests them.

10844            Further, they feel shut out from traditional, alternative and rock radio stations, because the language and type of humour is very often intended for a decidedly male audience.

10845            The research identified an appetite for current, contemporary and alternative music, and a very strong desire for spoken word that is relevant to their age and life experience.

10846            We used the focus groups to engage Edmonton women in the design of a service they would like to listen to, and the result is Jenn FM.

10847            The programming concepts and music playlists were tested through a phone survey with the general population.  What we found was that, while women had the highest interest in the spoken word elements of our programming, the programming concept and presentation of music was of equal interest to both women and men.

10848            In the end, what we have crafted will serve both genders, but, in particular, it will engage women 35 to 54.

10849            Val...

10850            MS HOCHSCHILD:  Thanks, Debra.

10851            In Edmonton, we found that alternative rock, alternative country, pop, folk and world music were missing and of interest.  Jenn FM can supply all of these through a Triple A format.

10852            Jenn FM will provide:

10853            A larger playlist.  The current market average is 900 tracks, and Jenn FM will have a weekly rotation of 1,450.

10854            More genres.  With the largest mix of genres of any format to draw from, Jenn FM will be able to best represent the multi‑genre interests of the average listener.

10855            Unheard music.  By playing alternative tracks and digging deeper into artist catalogues, Jenn FM will be able to provide an unduplicated listening option in the market.

10856            More new artists.  Because Triple A is less hit driven than most popular formats, it is unique in being able to showcase new artists and fill listener demand for more new music, more often.

10857            A balance of eras.  Triple A is a fluid format, in that it can balance a representation of the eras of music, without noticeably changing the key elements of the programming.  So, Jenn FM will be able to continually adjust to the competitive market by making slight alterations to the emphasis between gold, current and recurrent music.

10858            While the musical emphasis may shift, Jenn will always provide an alternative and more comprehensive listening experience for our audience, combined with intelligent spoken word offered from a female perspective.

10859            When all of these opportunities presented by the Triple A format are realized, the result will be a station that addresses many of the tune‑out factors the research identified.  Jenn FM will be greater variety, fewer repeats, and more new music.

10860            Jenn will also be decidedly different from what is on the air in Edmonton today.  Because of the inclusion of new artists, including 20 percent Canadian new and emerging, the playlist has a higher turnover of tracks and is constantly changing.  This results in less duplication.

10861            We have attached to our presentation a BDS duplication analysis.  What this shows is that Jenn's playlist will offer the lowest level of duplication of tracks among the Triple A applicants.  In fact, only 6 percent of Jenn's playlist is heard on Edmonton radio stations today.  Clearly, Jenn's unique brand of Triple A offers the most musical diversity for the target audience.

10862            Karen...

10863            MS BRODERICK:  Jenn will also offer feature programming to fill perceived gaps in the radio landscape.

10864            For example, while 35 to 54 is not old by anyone's standards, it is still a period of life when people do start to look back.  Jenn FM will help listeners relive some of their special moments through "Return Engagements".  This program will be dedicated to replaying classic concerts and memorable performances, whether it is clips from the first Live Aid concert in 1985, revisiting the concert for Diana, or highlights from less global events like Lollapalooza.

10865            Responding to listener interest and having a more direct say in what they listen to, Jenn FM will run "Listeners' Choice" on Sunday afternoon.  This is an opportunity for listeners to pick the musical theme and have a hand in choosing the music playlist.

10866            Another feature program, "Music Notes", is a two‑hour music magazine that provides dedicated background and biographical information on the performers, groups and the production of classic and destined to be classic CDs.

10867            It will be the perfect environment for the introduction of new artists, and will allow the opinion leaders in our audience to formulate first‑hand impressions of new Canadian talent.

10868            Finally, Jenn's "Canadian Showcase", which will air six times daily, each week, will serve up a 60‑second infotainment break, which will be immediately followed by a track selection from the artist or production profiled.  Fifty percent of these features will be dedicated to new and emerging Canadian artists each and every week.

10869            And because FACTOR is such a huge opportunity that seems to be underutilized by artists in the west, one of the benefits we will deliver is promotion of the fund through a 30‑second awareness campaign that we will air throughout the year to improve access by local performers.

10870            Pam...

10871            MS CHOLAK:  Music is not the only differentiating factor on Jenn FM.  Spoken word programming was also identified as an area of disconnect by the women at the focus groups I attended, and as a resident of Edmonton, I wholeheartedly agree with this description of local radio.

10872            Sandra Sperounes, a writer for the Edmonton Journal, summed up radio in this market, and its strong male character, on her blog as recently as May 25th, 2008.  I quote:

"A lot of stations in Edmonton are so blatantly male, from their humour to their staff to their commercials.  I am an avid listener of The Team 1260.  The morning show goes out of its way to try and include women.  But some of the station's ads turn me off, especially those for a certain limo company.  The orgasmic female voices...tend to make the service sound like a brothel on wheels."  (As read)

10873            Jenn FM will program in contrast to this trend.  Spoken word will be focused on the areas that Edmonton women identified as being most relevant.  Topics typically associated with female interests, such as health, fitness, lifestyle, family and relationships, will be mixed with more gender‑neutral topics, such as personal finances, local issues, career advice, and adult education.

10874            One of the spoken word opportunities that a licence in Edmonton will give Harvard is a new regional newscast, called "The New West".

10875            In April of this year, Alberta's Premier, the Honourable Ed Stelmach, encouraged Saskatchewan to join Alberta and British Columbia to forge what he calls "The New West".

10876            Harvard will respond to this invitation through the creation of a news feature that will tie The New West together in each of the markets we serve.

10877            Anchored in Edmonton, the provincial capital and the epicentre of The New West, this news program will rely on contributions from each of the markets in which they operate, now and in the future ‑‑ Regina, Saskatoon, Calgary, Fort McMurray, possibly Red Deer, and, of course, Edmonton.

10878            With input from these major economic hubs in the west, this news program will provide listeners with insight into regional stories of importance and increase the understanding of how the futures of this vast area are inextricably linked.

10879            In Edmonton, "The New West" will follow our five‑minute update at noon.  Fifteen minutes in length, the program will air five days per week, Monday through Friday, with a 25‑minute wrap‑up of the week's stories on Sunday at 12:30 p.m.

10880            Jenn FM will also provide a drive‑time information series that will lend some predictability to our dialogue with our listeners, and provide something to think about while driving home.

10881            Our "Going Home" series is designed to focus on topics that most consistently ranked high in interest across all demos and both genders.

10882            While the perspective of Jenn FM will be female, the programming will be inclusive ‑‑ inclusive of gender, cultures, race, religion and affiliation.

10883            Jenn FM will accomplish all of this through clear and meaningful guidelines on language and content.

10884            The result will be a station that is intelligent, family friendly, and community based.

10885            Karen...

10886            MS BRODERICK:  Listener feedback will be critical to the success of Jenn FM.  One of the ways this input will be collected is through our website.  The plans for the internet go well beyond streaming.

10887            One of the most exciting aspects of the website will be a new opportunity for both consumers and advertisers.

10888            Despite the high use of the internet in Edmonton, and the advantages of it as a marketing tool, many radio advertisers have not taken advantage of this media.  JennFM.com will provide these retailers with an opportunity for a web presence that is more than a banner ad.  The JennFM.com "Marketplace" will allow a user to search by category, area of town or retail name.  This will provide our advertisers a chance for prolonged exposure through web presence, and provide our listeners with an invaluable resource.

10889            We will create an audio base of commercials, so that listeners who only hear part of an ad and wish to know more can go online and search by store name, topic, or partial text.

10890            And last but not least, we will give visitors to JennFM.com the ability to sign up for category sales and receive online notices of sales, events or promotions.

10891            These features will give our advertisers the efficiency of broadcast and the targeting of direct mail.  The potential for JennFM.com is exciting.

10892            Women make up slightly more than half of the population of Edmonton, and they are considered the primary decision‑makers in the purchase of the majority of packaged goods and services.  With an integrated approach to promotion, Jenn will be able to attract new advertisers to the medium, and through our efficiencies we will be able to increase spending in radio.

10893            Bruce...

10894            MR. COWIE:  Madam Chair, now that you have an idea of who Jenn FM is, I would like to turn to the matter of Harvard Broadcasting and why we are the ideal choice for Edmonton.

10895            As the Commission has heard from us before, we believe that diversity of voices is critically important to the industry and to consumers.  We believe that it is only through diversity of voices that the core objectives of the Broadcasting Act can be met.

10896            However, we also believe that the interests of short‑term diversity must be balanced against the potential for long‑term diversity.

10897            Edmonton is a very competitive radio market.  A well‑resourced company, with a demonstrated commitment to radio, and a track record of competing as a stand‑alone in major markets is the only way, in our view, to ensure that consumers will continue to have access to a variety of programming and a broad perspective on news and information in the future.

10898            Harvard knows the Edmonton market very well.  We are, therefore, well positioned to succeed.

10899            The Hill companies have been operating in this market for many years, and have a well established base of contacts, relationships and resources upon which we can rely.

10900            Edmonton is home to many of us at Harvard and, if licensed, we would represent a new voice, and local ownership, by an experienced broadcaster.

10901            Rosanne...

10902            MS HILL‑BLAISDELL:  Harvard is a western‑based company that remains true to its roots.  Our commitment is to serve the people of western Canada, and to do so means that we have to be present in major western markets.  Edmonton represents one of the last opportunities in a major radio market in the west.

10903            Having a base in Edmonton is critically important to Harvard Broadcasting and it will shape our ability to contribute to the achievement of the objectives of the Broadcasting Act through our programming and our contributions to CCD.

10904            This licence in Edmonton will move us towards effective critical mass in terms of population served on a national level, allowing us to engage in negotiations with advertisers from a stronger position.

10905            It will also assist us in maximizing the impact of our CCD initiatives, extending the exposure we can give new and emerging artists.

10906            A presence in Edmonton enables us to achieve programming synergies and to offer our listeners innovative new programming like the new west.

10907            Having a station in Edmonton will diversify our broadcasting revenue base and better allow us to maximize operating efficiencies.

10908            Bruce.

10909            MR. COWIE:  In summary, we think JENN FM is the right station for Edmonton for several reasons.

10910            With the help of the disenfranchised radio listeners, we have created the format to recover lost tuning in the market.

10911            We will expand diversity through an addition of new music, new artists and create a listening option through broader genres, fewer repeats and deeper reflection of catalogues.

10912            We will increase the perspective of the spoken word by providing a new editorial voice and introducing a feminine yet inclusive perspective.

10913            Although we've not spoken of it to any extent in this presentation, we propose an investment in CCD that is both significant in its size, $5.5‑million, or 18 per cent of our revenues, and significant because of the value it delivers to Edmonton.

10914            We always strive for meaningful and local initiatives and we're particularly proud of the commitments we have made here.

10915            And, finally, Harvard has amassed the experience needed to compete as a stand‑alone in a multi‑format, single owner environment like Edmonton.  We have demonstrated our capability to both finance and to manage launch scenarios.

10916            We are poised for this challenge, enthused by our format and excited by the opportunity to create a new programming service.

10917            In closing, I think it is best to let the music and the format speak for itself.

‑‑‑ Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

10918            MR. COWIE:  Madam Chair, before moving back to you, we did include some attachments with our presentation this morning and I would ask Debra McLaughlin, for clarity purposes, to discuss those with you.

10919            MS McLAUGHLIN:  In the interest of fairness, because we're going to be talking about this data, we wanted to put it on the record in Phase I.  So, what we've done is, the data that we presented as part of our application on the per capita tuning in the market, we simply updated to the most recent survey so you would have current data.

10920            That's the first chart.

10921            The second chart is the applicant playlist duplication that we've been talking about, so we've laid it out.  It seems to be coming up a lot, and just for clarity sake we wanted you both to see what we were talking about and for other applicants to have an opportunity to view it.

10922            And, finally, was a press release that APTN sent us yesterday and actually asked us if we could table, and we weren't sure if it was right, but we were doing it for them, so...

10923            MR. COWIE:  Again, thank you, Madam Chairman and Members of the Commission.

10924            We're now ready for any questions you may have, and we would ask that you direct those to Karen Broderick.

10925            Thank you.

10926            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for your presentation.  Commissioner Cugini is going to commence the questioning.

10927            Thank you.

10928            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  A little hesitation is not lost on me.

10929            Thank you.

10930            Good morning.  And, Mr. Cowie, I do want to say that we're not used to seeing you in the second row, but I know that the composition of your panel is not just for the sake of optics and we sincerely do appreciate it and it is a reflection of your commitment to the format and to Harvard ‑‑ yes, and to Harvard's employment practices.

10931            So, thank you for that.

10932            I am going to start my questioning, as you may have guessed, with the format, and I'm going to ask you in the same way that I asked Yerxa the question.

10933            Why do you think that rock, pop, alternative country, jazz, folk, world music and blues, as you have described the format in your application, all belong on one radio station?

10934            What do they have in common and why are these formats compatible enough to all be on one radio station?

10935            MS BRODERICK:  Commissioner Cugini, this really came from the research that we did in the marketplace.  The format for JENN FM was built specifically for the Edmonton marketplace, and Debra can speak to the research that they conducted, which really attested to the fact that all of these music genres do, in fact, work together.

10936            So, perhaps Debra can address that.

10937            MS McLAUGHLIN:  Yes.  We did quite a bit of research.  When the call came out, we came into the market in November of last year or thereabouts and met with the general public to find out exactly what their interests were, their impressions of radio, how it worked.

10938            We had already looked at the BBM data up to spring, 2007 and we suspected that women would be the dissatisfied group considering the trend that had existed prior to that, but we did come in and we had groups with genders and we covered a range of age.

10939            What came out of that was a clear identification that most people can't say, I just listen to this, I am a rock fan or a pop fan, they could name stations that they spend the most time with, but coupled with being able to say, I spend the most time with radio station was a reaction to the specialization of music formats these days and the fact that they have to spend a lot of time going through the dial to put together the listening experience they want.

10940            So, they're just not a pop fan or not just a rock fan.

10941            And when we started talking to people, similarly in the way that we discovered this about youth, that if you go into their iPods ‑‑ and this group has iPods and they're making their own music mixes ‑‑ there's not, you know, differentiated segments, they actually go from one format to another.

10942            And I'm not a programmer, so I went and talked to programmers and people who put music together.  I went and talked to people who are in clubs to find out how they were putting music mixes together for clubs, and they were blending it seamlessly.

10943            So, we came back in January and we sat down with ‑‑ or sorry, yeah, we came back in January, we sat down with them, we tested some of the music mixes with them, got their reaction and the way to test it is to play it, let them hear it and then play similarly sounding from the same genre together to see if it flows.

10944            They rated high on their own.  They actually in some cases, not all, rated higher when mixed together.

10945            The last piece of research we did was in April of this year and we came and tested again because, of course, we're coming before you; have the music mixes changed, has anything happened in the market?

10946            And in all of those cases, in all three scenarios, we found that people were interested in a blend, they were not just interested in a singular.

10947            The last thing is, in our consumer demand there's a really large sample there, it's 809, and typically when you're sampling just a single format, if you're just doing pop, it would be about 400, but what we did was when we were asking the demand question we shifted around the genres of music that we put in because it's not that people stop listening ‑‑ because that would make all research sound bad ‑‑ but they do pick up on the first few words and they tend to lose others, so we wanted to make sure we weren't introducing a bias.

10948            And what we found was with the mix there was similar interest however we worded it or presented it.

10949            So, all of those four separate occasions, plus our own listening experience and the experience of the programmers, suggests that blending genres of music is actually pretty reflective of how people experience music themselves.

10950            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  From both a researcher and a radio operator point of view, do you see this as a trend going forward, that is, the move away from, I guess, specialty radio, to one where ‑‑ because you're not the only market in which we've heard applications for a Triple A and you certainly aren't the only applicant for a Triple A, and we know that there are a couple in the country.

10951            So I guess, generally speaking, is this a trend that the music industry, the radio industry is going through?

10952            MS McLAUGHLIN:  You know, I certainly wouldn't summon a death knell for specialized music because I think there are people who ‑‑ and there's always room for specialized formats.  I mean, sometimes you just need to hear rock music, or you just need something soft and those stations will always have a market.

10953            What I think this is a reaction to is programming or a set of programming paradigms that have grown up that rely on a smaller list of music, and I think it reflects not necessarily the largest part of the market because, you know, I always present to you the degree of dissatisfaction with the market.  There is always that balance where there's people very happy with what's in the market.

10954            But what we're talking about now and with the markets where there's multiple formats and there's such specialization, and in the case of the rock format, for example, if I was to run a BDS analysis for you, I could find a large percentage of the playlist from each one of them that duplicates.

10955            So, the reaction is really to what's in the market and by a smaller group of people, albeit a large enough market to program to, simply what has been happening as a larger trend.  There will always be people who want something different, something more.

10956            Fortunately in the area of Triple A you can pull these together.  And I think the Triple A you would see in Edmonton would be different than, say, the Triple A in Vancouver.

10957            For example, alternative country got mentioned more often in this market than it would in Vancouver.  In Ottawa, we had more interest in some of the pop and, actually, there was a language interest, there was some interest in having alternative pop from Beck.

10958            So, I think what we're looking at is an opportunity to fill the gap that specialized radio services have created.

10959            It's not that they're not doing a good job and I think it's going to be, but I think  Triple A has room in the market, or there's room for it because there's people who really love music, who are out there, they're the early adapters, they're the people that are on the Internet, they're the first people to be leaving radio, and I think we can bring them back because, you know, local news is important and local information, so...

10960            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  From an operator's point of view, Ms. Broderick?

10961            MS BRODERICK:  I think ‑‑ actually, I'm going to let Michael Olstrom address this, this is more from a programming perspective and he would probably have a better idea than I.

10962            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Sure.

10963            MR. OLSTROM:  Well, from a programming perspective, you come into a market and you look for those opportunities.  And, as Debra attests to in the research, there's some holes that you can find and, you know, we look ‑‑ when we go into any market we look at the research, we wait to see what the people of that city are telling us.

10964            We've come before you with a number of different formats, whether it be Saskatoon or Calgary, Fort McMurray.

10965            You find what works and what appeals to that portion of the audience that feels they're missing something, and so far it's proven out fairly well for us in each of those scenarios.

10966            And we believe what we've found here is, from a programmer and an operations standpoint is, we found a format with an audience that is not getting what they want from not only a music perspective, but from a spoken word and news and information and I think perspective, considering the fact that this is a female targeted radio station and, as you can see, I'm in my proper place on the panel.

10967            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So, I don't want to beat this point but, Mr. Olstrom, are you saying that more than a trend, it really has to stay on a case‑by‑case, market‑by‑market basis?

10968            MR. OLSTROM:  I believe so, and I believe as broadcasters we're looking for opportunities.

10969            There's many radio stations, many different formats, formats of the same kind in markets, formats that niche a little bit one way or the other, but as broadcasters, you know, we look for opportunities.

10970            And when the consumer demand comes back that says this is what we're not getting, it really speaks to us and it also speaks to us from an advertising standpoint as well.

10971            There's advertisers looking to reach out to these audiences that aren't spending as much time with radio or, you know, maybe they've got a radio station they listen to but it's not quite theirs.  That's what they're looking for.

10972            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

10973            Category 3 music, because some of the genres that we have just been talking about do fall into the Category 3 bucket, how many hours a week are you proposing of Category 3 music?

10974            MS BRODERICK:  We are considering 18.9 hours per week.

10975            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And that represents what percentage?

10976            MS BRODERICK:  15 per cent of the number of spins, which is 1,450 per week, so it works out to be roughly 218 spins.

10977            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And you know the next question.

10978            MS BRODERICK:  Yes.

10979            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Will you accept that as a condition of licence?

10980            MS BRODERICK:  Yes, we will.

10981            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And of the subcategories of Category 3, from which subcategories will that music come from?

10982            MS BRODERICK:  I'm going to have Val explain that to you.

10983            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Certainly.

10984            MS HOCHSCHILD:  Of the 15 per cent, 10 will be from folk, three from world, and two per cent from jazz/blues.

10985            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And you are aware of the 2006 Commercial Radio Policy that requires that 20 per cent of subcategory 34 be Canadian.

10986            And will you accept that as a condition of licence?

10987            MS BRODERICK:  Yes, we will.

10988            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

10989            I am going to speak more about the combination of music and spoken word and targeting your demographic group, but before we go into that, I do want to speak about your share projections.

10990            And we know that they start at 3.8 per cent, rising to 7.5 per cent in year seven.  You have identified throughout your application your core audience as being disenfranchised.

10991            What is the combination of music and spoken word going to do for this disenfranchised listener to enable you to achieve these share projections that you have in your application?

10992            MS BRODERICK:  Again, Commissioner, this really did come from the research, so I'm going to turn it over to Debra again to explain that.

10993            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Sure.

10994            MS McLAUGHLIN:  I think it is important to note that it is a combination, that the music alone addresses only part of the disconnect that women in this market in particular are having with radio.

10995            So, you know, as we discussed in our presentation and certainly in the application, you know, we're going to be including that broader mix so they don't have to go somewhere else.  So, that adds to our ability to develop those shares.

10996            We're going to be bringing in new genres that aren't heard as much, so people who are playing CDs in their car to get that music can stay with us, they can actually expect to hear it.

10997            We're going to be including their perspective in terms of the music, certainly in the spoken word, and Pam can speak to that in a second.

10998            But we have a program in the afternoon on Sunday that is listener's choice and it was totally developed by women, and not just in this market, it comes up spontaneously in other markets, where they sort of get excited about the thought of having some say.

10999            So, listener's choice on Sunday afternoon.  Isn't a request program in as much as people call in and you're going to have this wide‑ranging or more inappropriate for this format, the same songs every week, what it's going to be is a themed program that will be tested through the website and with consumer groups.

11000            So, for example, people who really like Motown, which isn't a genre of music that you get mixed in very much in this market or in many markets, but we would have a Motown afternoon.  And if you promote it right and you get the information out on the website and through various forms, people will come to tune to that.

11001            And we think the excitement of involving them and engaging them in this way and the possibility of having them hear music that they don't typically hear, I mean people have CDs and they have collections and some of this music is a bit older and they don't even know where to find it any more.  So, they have one sampling but they'd like to hear the whole thing.  So, we're including their views of it.

11002            So, that will look after the music portion with more artists and larger catalogues because people buy CDs, so they know all their songs, they just don't know the hits and, in fact, sometimes hits are the very reason people go to another station.  So, we have that.

11003            And then in the spoken word, you know, I'm always cautious when I'm talking about this because this isn't going to be the prissy station, it's going to be respectful but, you know, people have ‑‑ that we talk, and particularly the women, have very keen senses of humour but they don't necessarily just revolve around bathroom humour.

11004            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  You can say it.

11005            MS McLAUGHLIN:  Okay.  Well, I was trying to think of just the politically correct term.

11006            So, anyway, you know.  And, so it is going to be funny, it is going to be topical and it's going to represent a female perspective.

11007            Having said that, there's a whole bunch of gender neutral topics that just don't get discussed.  And I think the best way to explain it is that there's an awful lot of pop cultural banter happening in between songs and the people that are dissatisfied and disconnecting with the spoken word  don't get it, or they don't want to hear it over and over again.  They want something a little broader, something that's relevant to their lifestyle.

11008            And I'll let Pam, because she's both a listener in the market, but also Pam spoke to an awful lot of people in this market when we were putting together this application.

11009            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Sure.

11010            MS CHOLAK:  Thank you, Debra and Commissioner.

11011            I think it's a really good question for this market because it would seem that the Edmonton marketplace has an awful lot of radio already, we have an awful lot of choice it would seem, and I don't think that it's absolutely fair to say that we do, that it's actually meeting the targets and the kind of demographic that's happening within not just Edmonton but the capital region.

11012            And I think when we talk about Edmonton, we have to be very cognizant that it's broader than just Edmonton, metro Edmonton and this radio station will serve that, the Sherwood Parks, the St. Alberts, the other communities that surround Edmonton.

11013            And the demographics that are in there are my demographic and the focus groups I've attended and the literally hundreds of people that I've been able to talk to are excited about this format, not just from a listener perspective, but certainly from a business perspective as well, because there is a new opportunity for advertisers to hit a market that they don't otherwise have an opportunity to do so.

11014            And in my opening remarks when I talk about the limo company, for example, and I did have to practise that by reading it, not certainly by practise, but it's important that we recognize that there's a whole business sector out there that is excited about this kind of a format because it gives them an opportunity to address a demographic that they wouldn't otherwise necessarily be able to attract.  And, so, I think from an operating standpoint, it's important.

11015            Certainly from a listener perspective there is a demographic out there and there is a listening audience that flip around on the channels, and I'll give you the perfect example, and that's me and my family.

11016            I am a businesswoman, but I'm also a mother.  I have two small children, and in this marketplace I often find myself fixated on the Disney Channel in my vehicle, which is not an FM station, it is not an AM station, it is not an Edmonton station whatsoever.

11017            So, I get inundated with some popular music, but it's certainly not local and certainly not necessarily the kind of music that I would like all the time.

11018            But I'll tell you why we listen to it, is because I know what I'm getting.  I don't have to worry about the kind of commercials that are going to be on there.  I can take my children to school in the morning and not be thinking, oh, my goodness, what did they just hear, because they're not going to hear ‑‑ I don't want them hearing the oh‑oh, conversation.

11019            And, so, I think we are not serving that particular market well.  And I need a station, and I know a lot of the women and men ‑‑ there is an awful lot, this isn't just focused solely on women, but certainly there is a proportion of the population here that would say, I need to have some respect in what we're talking about, I don't need all the banter, I don't need to know how many panties were hung in the barbecue pit last night with all the conversation that goes on.

11020            We need a little bit more respect, we need a presentation that is talking to a demographic  that's not dowdy.  Because we're 40 we're not  necessarily dowdy and we're not necessarily light, but we certainly have other considerations.

11021            And, so, I think the predictability that Harvard is presenting in JENN FM is also an important factor for us.  There's a format here of spoken word that we know what we're going to get when we're going to get it, in the a.m., in the p.m., and in between.

11022            So, in the a.m. I know I'm going to be getting advertising, I know that I'm going to be getting programming that is short, relevant but predictable in time.

11023            On the drive home, our going home series, our driving home series, three minutes in lengths on topics that are most relevant to what we as women, as well as what some of that demographic of age would be looking for, topics on health, nutrition.

11024            On Fridays ‑‑ Monday through Friday, a different topic every day, but Fridays, for example, a calendar of events.

11025            If you've ever been to Edmonton in the summer you know that it's a festival city.  Those things are very, very important, but we don't have a lot of time to spend on it, so we want it quick and snappy and I need to know when it is going to happen.

11026            And finally, again, I think the spoken word is all about perspective.  There is a female perspective here that is being missed, and we need to have a demographic on the radio that we hear that isn't doing just weather or traffic records.

11027            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I'm going to cap this line of discussion with what some may think is pretty blunt, but we all know of the terms chick flick, chick lit, some people think it's pejorative, some don't, some think it's great.  You know, Chapters will have a whole section that says chick lit.

11028            Is it a good thing or a bad thing in your perspective if you become known as the chick station?

11029            MS McLAUGHLIN:  I think for branding purposes it's probably pretty good.  I think it's probably unrealistic to think that a station that offers the kind of music we're going to offer isn't going to pick up a bunch of male tuners.

11030            But, you know, what you want when you're developing a business plan is to have a clear identifying view that is held by a majority of people.

11031            So, you know, are we going to exclude people intentionally?  No, but if people get to know that this station has a strong feminine identity and  then what they're going to hear is a bunch of topics presented from a female perspective and not necessarily what Pam calls the angry elf perspective, we think that's pretty good.

11032            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Fair enough.

11033            You know that we like to ask the similarities and differences questions with other applicants.

11034            But, you know, it's the last day of applicants appearing before us, so I'm going to do a different spin on the question.

11035            What, in your opinion, are the things that we should look at in determining whether or not applications before us are competitive one with the other?  What are the determining factors?  Is it format, is it the demographic group, is it the playlist, is it the commitment to Category 3 music or not?

11036            What, for us, should be the determining factors?

11037            MS BRODERICK:  The way we looked at it when we looked at us against the other applicants, we broke it down into probably five categories that we compared ourselves to and that was the target audience, the male/female split of audience, who's providing, you know, how much new and emerging, the duplication in the marketplace.

11038            Those are all areas that, you know, we try to differentiate ourselves from the other applicants.

11039            I'm not sure, Debra, if there's something you wanted to add to that.

11040            MS McLAUGHLIN:  Well, you know, if I had to weigh in on this, I think the importance is to be able to provide something that is different, but not for different sake, that it actually addresses the need.

11041            So, you know, trying to weight between is it truly unique to this market as in it doesn't duplicate anything else and does it serve this demo, I'm not quite sure what that balance is, whether it's 50/50 or 60/40.

11042            But, I mean, realistically this is a very competitive market, and just stepping back from a business perspective, if you're not different, I don't think you're going to do as well simply because you can already get something.

11043            And from my understanding of the research, all of the research that we've done and, in fact, a lot of research that I've