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Volume 8, 16 May 2012

TRANSCRIPTION OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

SUBJECT:

To consider the broadcasting applications listed in Broadcasting Notice of Consultation CRTC 2012-126, 2012-126-1, 2012-126-2 and 2012-126-3

HELD AT:

Room 200 ABC

Allstream Centre

105 Princes' Boulevard

Toronto, Ontario

16 May 2012


Transcription

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the public hearing.


Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Transcription

To consider the broadcasting applications listed in Broadcasting Notice of Consultation CRTC 2012-126, 2012-126-1, 2012-126-2 and 2012-126-3

BEFORE:

Len KatzChairperson

Candice MolnarCommissioner

Peter MenziesCommissioner

Marc PatroneCommissioner

Tom PentefountasCommissioner

Stephen SimpsonCommissioner

Louise PoirierCommissioner

ALSO PRESENT:

Lynda RoySecretary

Crystal HulleyLegal Counsel

Lyne CapeHearing Manager

HELD AT:

Room 200 ABC

Allstream Centre

105 Princes' Boulevard

Toronto, Ontario

16 May 2012


- iv -

TABLE OF CONTENTS

PAGE / PARA

APPEARING ITEMS

PHASE II

INTERVENTIONS

APPEARING INDIVIDUALLY

7. Frank Torres, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated1876 /11600

8. Rock 95 Broadcasting Ltd.1888 /11661

12. WorldBand Media, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated1897 /11711

16. Radio 1540 Limited1905 /11769

17. S. Sivakkumaran, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated1911 /11815

20. Radio Ryerson Inc.1920 /11875

22. MZ Media Inc.1927 /11926

PHASE III

INTERVENTIONS

PANEL OF INTERVENERS

1. 1806628 Ontario Inc. o/a The Media Group Inc.1937 /11980

2. Diversity Emerging Music Collective1951 /12033

3. CJVF 105.9 FM1958 /12065

4. Canadian Multicultural Alliance1964 /12106

PANEL OF INTERVENERS

5. CINA 1650 AM Radio1972 /12164

6. 3885275 Canada Inc. o/a Canadian Multicultural Radio1977 /12186

PANEL OF INTERVENERS

8. Daniel Besharat1983 /12223

9. Greg Duffell1987 /12246

PHASE IV

REPLIES

APPEARING INDIVIDUALLY

20. Stanislaus Antony, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated2004 /12356

1. Intercity Broadcasting Network Inc.2014 /12420

3. La Coopérative Radiophonique de Toronto inc.2021 /12467

4. MZ Media Inc.2034 /12553

5. Dufferin Communications Inc.2040 /12590

6. Radio Ryerson Inc.2050 /12641

7. 8041393 Canada Inc.2059 /12687

8. Sarabjeet S. Arora, on behalf of a not-for-profit corporation to be incorporated2064 /12724

9. S. Sivakkumaran, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated2071 /12758

10. Radio 1540 Limited2080 /12809

12. Trust Communications Ministries2086 /12843

13. Tosan Lee, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated2088 /12857

15. 7954689 Canada Inc.2092 /12882

14. WorldBand Media, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated2096 /12916

16. 2308739 Ontario Inc.2104 /12971

17. Family FM Inc.2116 /13045

18. Rock 95 Broadcasting Ltd.2124 /13096

19. Frank Torres, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated2133 /13149

21. Durham Radio Inc.2143 /13204

22. Bhupinder Bola, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated2149 /13238

23. Michael Wekerle, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated2159 /13293

24. Larche Communications Inc.2165 /13325

25. Newcap Inc.2170 /13355


Toronto, Ontario

--- Upon commencing on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 at 0902

11599   THE SECRETARY: We will start today with Frank Torres in Phase II. Please reintroduce yourselves for the record and you have 10 minutes for your presentation.

INTERVENTION

11600   MR. E. TORRES: Good morning, Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission and Commission staff. My name is Ed Torres, President of SkyWords Media and CEO of CIDG 101.9 DAWG FM in Ottawa.

11601   To your far right in the front row is Lisa Morales, Program Director of SkyWords Media.

11602   Beside Lisa, Yves Trottier, Operations Manager and Program Director of 101.9 DAWG FM.

11603   My brother Frank Torres is beside me. He is my business partner, cofounder of SkyWords and also cofounder of CIDG.

11604   Beside Frank is Doug Smyth, a partner in the law firm of Low Murchison Radnoff LLP and legal counsel to Torres Media.

11605   Beside Doug is Todd Bernard. Todd is a partner in our Ottawa operation, a native Torontonian and the General Manager of 101.9 DAWG FM.

11606   To Todd's right, on your far left, Jeff McFayden is the Sales Supervisor of DAWG FM.

11607   We take this opportunity to make comments regarding applications before the Commission at this proceeding and to try and clear up any muddy waters that might be out there.

11608   MR. BERNARD: We submit that the other applicants appearing before you proposing music-based formats do not inject the same level of musical diversity the DAWG application proposes. All other music formats are targeted to essentially serve a female audience and ignore the underserved male demo clearly identified in DAWG FM's application.

11609   A review of the various submitted AAA format playlists clearly shows a level of artist and song duplication ranging from 10 to 25 percent when compared with existing formats such as AC, EZ Rock and female-oriented formats.

11610   The proposed AAA formats also draw heavily on established artists such as Sarah McLachlan, Jann Arden and Bryan Adams tracks, to name only a few. Even so, the AAA format has underachieved in Canadian markets where licensed.

11611   Further, the AAA format already exists in Toronto on CBC Radio 2 and achieves only a 1.6 share in the market.

11612   Shore FM launched an AAA format in July of 2009 in Vancouver and only recently was able to achieve their highest rating of a 1.6 share. Shore was recently sold to Astral and Astral's long-term financial commitment to the AAA format's viability is questionable.

11613   Further, we are unsure about Mr. Wekerle's experience with the AAA formats and following their presentation a number of questions remain unanswered.

11614   Who owns the Wekerle application? Who will manage it? What percentage, if any, will Stingray own? How long will it be before control changes?

11615   In fact, it appears that the pilot of that ship, Dan Barton, has accepted a full-time position as the Marketing Manager for Metro News, Eastern Canada last Friday. Is he coming back? And who will tie Mr. Wekerle's sneakers now as he prepares for the Olympics?

11616   At the Vancouver hearing in 2008, we saw a high-powered panel apply against us. They won that licence and Shore FM was born. Shortly after launch, the major money men pulled out, cutting their losses due to overinflated CCD commitments and failure to realize and monetize original overestimated share projections. Our group, by contrast, is largely the same group that appeared before the Commission in that same hearing four years ago.

11617   MS MORALES: We feel that ethnic programming already exists in the Toronto market in appropriate levels.

11618   South Asian communities are well served in the current market. Decision 2003-115 licensed CJSA-FM following the last major Toronto radio call. The decision was predicated on CJSA's extensive service to South Asian communities, including over 65 hours per week to principal language groups, including Hindi, Punjabi, Tamil, Filipino and Urdu, as well as numerous other smaller South Asian language communities in Toronto.

11619   The East Asian community is also well served in the Toronto market by Fairchild who specializes in East Asian programming not only in Toronto but in Vancouver and provides programming in Mandarin and Cantonese as focus language groups.

11620   The Commission recognized this when it licensed Focus (CBLT-FM - The Beat) in Vancouver, Decision 2001-312, to operate an urban format with a business plan predicated on attracting multicultural youth. In that decision the Commission accepted Focus' argument that most second- and third-generation multicultural youth are highly integrated into the Canadian mosaic and look more to mainstream commercial-oriented stations for their music and information.

11621   We would note that second- and third-generation ethnic youth do not gravitate to ethnic radio as their first choice in listening, as suggested by various ethnic applicants.

11622   MR. E. TORRES: It's our view that the news/talk applicants also do not offer any additional diversity into the market. Toronto is already served well by six English-language talk radio stations, including CFRB, CFMJ, CHUM AM, CFTR, CJCL and CBLA. Further, Toronto is served by one French-language talk radio station and 10, soon to be 11, ethnic radio stations that prominently feature talk and spoken word programming in both English and third languages. Talk can be accommodated on AM signals for this market.

11623   A number of applicants in this proceeding have grossly inflated share projections and revenues to support unsustainable CCD commitments.

11624   It is worth noting that in the past competitive hearing decisions the Commission has been clear in its wording that it expects an applicant's business plan to realistically reflect its ability to meet CCD.

11625   The OK Radio decision is a good example. The Commission licensed OK Radio in Edmonton with a total seven-year commitment of $525,000 instead of Rogers at $10 million. Decision 2004-135 paragraph 28 states, and I quote:

"The Commission notes that OK Radio is a smaller independent broadcaster that will be operating a single English-language commercial FM station in the competitive Edmonton market. Based on these considerations, and noting that the applicant's CTD proposal far exceeds the minimum requirements of the CTD funding plan instituted by the CAB, the Commission is satisfied that the financial commitments to CTD by OK Radio are reasonable."

11626   A review of the latest PPM data will give you a sense of what current radio stations achieve in terms of share. We feel that at best a standalone in this market with an impaired frequency, regardless of format, would only ever achieve between a 2 and 2.5 share.

11627   MR. F. TORRES: The Ryerson application has not received technical acceptance from Industry Canada. Further, it appears that the three main issues that resulted in the revocation of the Ryerson licence, governance, regulatory compliance and the support of its student population, are still serious issues that have not been addressed in their oral presentation.

11628   In losing its privilege to broadcast on 88.1, Ryerson opened the door for this proceeding. We have reviewed the Commission's Web site for decisions or precedents where a revoked licence has been reawarded to the same broadcaster or group. We could not find any.

11629   However contrite the Ryerson Group may be today, for the Commission to reaward 88.1 to Ryerson sends the wrong message not only to the community campus stations but to all broadcasters and would, in our view as a small independent broadcaster, set a very dangerous precedent.

11630   MR. McFAYDEN: The Commission has a unique opportunity to license a new commercial station in Canada's most profitable market as a result of this hearing.

11631   All the applicants applying for a licence amendment knew what they were getting into when they sought CRTC approval to operate using impaired signals or purchased stations with signal limitations or long-term potential technical or transmitter viability issues.

11632   MZ Media currently operates one of the best AM frequencies in Southern Ontario. AM 740 is referred to as "Boomer" rather than "Zoomer" radio. Problems surrounding a possible lease issue for their AM transmitter were well understood when the application to acquire assets was filed. Further, CBC site issues will not need to be addressed until 2021, which is hardly around the corner, as MZ Media has suggested.

11633   While some nesting has been granted in Toronto, the frequencies approved for this purpose were, for the most part, severely limited. A number of the amendment applications before you testify to this issue. However, as the Panel indicated during questioning, it is not necessarily the Commission's job to solve technical issues but to determine the best use of the frequency.

11634   We also note with some skepticism that although not required in an amendment application, MZ Media is offering substantial CCD commitments where none is required.

11635   Is nesting a wide-reaching AM signal in the Toronto market the best use of 88.1?

11636   A CBC French-language FM may be in CBC's long-range plan, but given the market size of the Franco population of Toronto and rating of other CBC services in Toronto, this clearly points to the fact that this would not constitute the best use of the 88.1 frequency.

11637   CBC is in the enviable position for owning three other FM signals in the market. Has the CBC fully explored the second adjacency signal? With the amount of spectrum real estate that CBC owns, could it not negotiate a deal with another large player instead of using scarce spectrum that could be used for commercial purposes?

11638   None of the amendment applications add diversity to the Toronto radio landscape, merely they seek to improve their position in the market.

11639   MR. F. TORRES: The technically unapproved.

11640   Broadcasting Notice 2011-625 -- that is the Toronto call -- clearly states:

"The Commission intends to consider the applications at a public hearing. However, the Commission advises applicants that it will withdraw any application from the public hearing if it is not advised by the Department that the application is technically acceptable at least twenty days prior to the first day of the hearing."

11641   Without technical acceptance from Industry Canada, competing applications cannot be compared in terms of their business plan, reach or market studies, et cetera.

11642   In a market as densely populated as Toronto, a power reduction of only 10 watts could create a variance in population served by hundreds of thousands of people. Merely reorienting a panel in a directional antenna by one or two degrees could result in a similar change in population coverage.

11643   We question the projections of all of the applicants that have not received technical approval in light of the unknown status of their signal coverage and population counts.

11644   For the above reasons, we wish the record to reflect a number of applicants have not met the standard of technical acceptance from Industry Canada prior to this hearing.

11645   MR. E. TORRES: We believe that our application best fills the void in Toronto's radio landscape by targeting the underserved male demographic and we maintain that our application provides a superior CCD package that promotes and focuses on blues genre artists and the MAPLE Blues Awards.

11646   We have engineered a superior signal to reach our audience. We will inject diversity in terms of format, ownership and cultural diversity into this market. This market is our home. It's home to us, it's home to our business.

11647   For these reasons we believe that our quality application ---

11648   MS HULLEY: Excuse me. I'm just going to have to ask that you keep your remarks to the other interveners and not your own application. Thank you.

11649   MR. E. TORRES: Okay. And that concludes our intervention.

11650   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Any questions at all, Panel?

11651   COMMISSIONER PENTEFOUNTAS: Just briefly.

11652   In terms of technical approval, who does not have technical approval besides Ryerson?

11653   MR. E. TORRES: There are a number of applicants that have not received technical approval and they are in Broadcast Notice 2012-126-2, I believe.

11654   COMMISSIONER PENTEFOUNTAS: Are you telling me everybody in red does not have TA?

11655   MR. E. TORRES: Correct.

11656   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for your intervention.

11657   Madam Secretary...?

11658   THE SECRETARY: Thank you very much. I will now invite Rock 95 Broadcasting Ltd. to take their place.

--- Pause

11659   MR. BINGLEY: Madam Secretary, can I proceed?

11660   THE SECRETARY: You certainly can. Please reintroduce yourselves for the record and you may proceed.

INTERVENTION

11661   MR. BINGLEY: Okay. Thank you very much.

11662   Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Vice-Chairman, Panel Members and Commission staff. My name is Doug Bingley, I am President and General Manager of Rock 95 Broadcasting.

11663   To my left is Megan Bingley, a member of our Board of Directors, and to my right is Dave Carr, who is our Vice-President of Programming.

11664   Now, I'm told that the Commission finds this section of the hearing quite valuable, so we will try to give you a lot of value in the next few minutes, but I would like to point out that our comments are technical in nature and they certainly don't reflect on the professionalism of any of the applicants, all of whom have done a truly amazing job.

11665   First, AAA. In a nutshell, AAA just hasn't worked. For various reasons those who have received AAA licences in Canada abandoned the format. Of the five stations licensed over the last few years, Calgary and Edmonton abandoned the format shortly after launch. The London AAA is now Classic Hits. In B.C. Shore FM could not make money with the format.

11666   A key factor in the failure of AAAs is that their overall musical position places them in direct competition with existing Classic Hits and AC operations. What initially appears to be a clear format hole does not materialize. Given the signal limitations of 88.1, this problem would be magnified in Toronto.

11667   Lack of success is not limited to Canada. Arbitron rankings show that of all formats in the U.S., AAA ranks second to last. Although a few have been successful, the vast majority have abandoned the format.

11668   Turning to CCD, although the intent is admirable, the benefits proposed by the AAA applicants appear to be overly ambitious relative to available revenue. These commitments have turned what essentially would be a relatively low-cost-to-operate niche format into a high-cost format.

11669   Past experience has shown that it's unlikely that an AAA will be able to generate predicted revenue levels, and from a business standpoint when you combine those projected lower revenues with high CCD expenses, that's a strong case for changing the format.

11670   A couple of other points.

11671   Although Newcap describes their format as Modern Adult, it appears to be AAA. In their search for Calgary, Pattison Broadcast examined a format they called Softer AAA, which is virtually identical to the Modern Adult descriptor used by Newcap.

11672   Michael Wekerle, OBCI. Research began with focus groups, which is okay, but focus groups are too small to provide any degree of statistical validity. They must be followed up with telephone surveys with a large number of people.

11673   But during the telephone interviews, the research firm did not play a musical montage, standard practice for all format research. Finding intent to tune without a musical montage is the equivalent of asking someone if they would buy a car without showing it to them.

11674   Moreover, the research question was very broad in nature. It would be very difficult to identify the potential audience from this type of question.

11675   Turning to the business format. When we look at the market space for a business station, we see that a new business station with standard news wheels in drive periods would compete directly with 680 News, which could easily expand their business news coverage, blocking any competitive opportunity.

11676   Commissioners, if you ever have the chance, take a tour of the 680 newsroom. It really is amazing. It is a well-oiled machine and it would be very difficult for a standalone operator to compete with this powerful operation.

11677   Existing AM stations could also shift programming to include more business news or flip to the format. This would be particularly easy for CTV which already operates BNN.

11678   In terms of cost structure, the proposed programming staff size is 21. This contrasts with the 680 News programming staff of 66. While the applicant has indicated they will have synergies, they do run a very tight ship, so we believe that programming costs could easily be double those forecasted.

11679   Business news is not easy to implement and target listeners will expect knowledgeable business-savvy hosts, moderators and reporters. These people are very difficult to find, especially within a modest budget, and while the applicant proposes to bring in some industry insiders at no cost, this will not eliminate the problem.

11680   Finally, the limited coverage area of 88.1 would erode revenue opportunities and technically the station would be at a huge competitive disadvantage in head-on competition with existing stations.

11681   Turning to news/talk, there already are two news/talk stations in the market. One, CFRB, is doing well. The second, AM 640, only has a 2.3 share. So it seems very unlikely to us that a third station could increase programming diversity, nor could they be financially successful.

11682   Turning to the application by Torres, we note that during their presentation they characterized our application as AAA. This is not the case.

11683   If you examine a 12-song hour you will see that an AAA station would play approximately 25 percent indie artist maximum, with 75 percent of their music coming from mainstream artists.

11684   An indie station is the opposite. We would play 83 percent indie artists with only 17 percent coming from mainstream artists.

11685   AAAs also play some indie, but the vast majority of their spins would be from established indie artists such as Arcade Fire, Said the Whale and Broken Social Scene. Those bands of course would be played on 88.1 as well, but they would represent a small proportion of our overall indie content.

11686   Now, CBC and MZ Media put forward a very compelling case as to why their service is important, but that's not the point. Use of 88.1 is not the only way that they can improve service to downtown Toronto.

11687   Both Radio-Canada and Zoomer Radio operate on clear channels at the low-end of the AM band. Those are the best AM frequencies available, but the frequencies are not being used to their full potential.

11688   Other broadcasters in Toronto with frequencies having similar potential have developed better sites for AM; thus, they have much better signals.

11689   For example, Rogers 680 News operates on AM. It has an audience size of over 3 million people. That's 50 percent higher than CBC Radio One, which operates on FM.

11690   And to put this all into perspective, CBC used to broadcast Radio 2 and Espace Musique from a 575-foot-high tower. When the city grew up they moved to the CN Tower. If they were still broadcasting from that old site they would have reception problems on FM.

11691   CBC has had many years to move their AM site and install a directional antenna which would greatly improve their signal into the city core, and although they state they are unable to locate an antenna at Toronto Island or elsewhere within the city, a technical solution would not require towers located within Toronto.

11692   Directional arrays could be located at various locations outside of the city, and although it may take some time to find a location and obtain permits, it would greatly improve their signal. We do recognize the budgetary constraints that they currently face, but given the desire, the CBC will be able to find the funds and a location in order to improve the signal on AM.

11693   Moreover, there is only one FM frequency available. If you award the frequency to either CBC or MZ Media, only one problem will be resolved. If the CBC develops a better AM site, it will also provide a better opportunity to improve the signal for Zoomer Radio, doubling the public benefit.

11694   Turning to Dufferin Communications, as noted by the Panel, Dufferin has not implemented their already approved power increase to 250 watts. Such a change would greatly improve reception.

11695   Reception difficulties in downtown Toronto are largely due to multipath, not signal strength. This is related to antenna design and location.

11696   When driving along the Lakeshore in downtown, which are all within the 3mV contours, there is significant picket fencing or flutter on the signal. But driving along Highway 401 beyond the 3mV contours, reception is clean and clear, as is the case driving up Highway 400, where the signal is clear north to Highway 7.

11697   Aside from downtown multipath reception in cars, it's pretty good throughout the city.

11698   The applicant states that more buildings are being erected in the city core, creating more signal problems. But those buildings are all within the 3mV contour of the station. Assuming an effective antenna system, those new buildings do not represent significant impairment in coverage, they represent increased population density and greater opportunities to increase audience size.

11699   With respect to the common ownership policy, we note that there is significant overlap of the 88.1 signal and existing signals of this applicant, which could place them in conflict with the COP. Although nominally licensed to Orangeville and Newmarket, Z103.5 and 88.5 The Jewel place a strong 3mV signal into the Toronto CMA. Both operate out of studios located in downtown Toronto.

11700   In terms of licence class, we note that this is not a community licence, it is a commercial licence, currently not restricted to the LGBT format. The applicant has agreed to a COL, but stated that they would accept it only for one licence term.

11701   In any event, such a COL would be very difficult to measure and enforce.

11702   The applicant contends that revenue difficulties are all related to signal. What if they are not? If they continue to lose money with this format, market forces would dictate a move to another.

11703   In that event, although they could not simulcast, it would make perfect sense to coordinate programming on 88.1 with their existing 88.5 station. In such a case, Dufferin would have the best coverage of any station in Toronto -- 88.1 would cover the city core and 88.5 would take them to the shores of Georgian Bay.

11704   That concludes our remarks. We very much appreciate your attention.

11705   THE CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions?

--- Pause

11706   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for your intervention.

11707   MR. BINGLEY: Thank you.

11708   THE SECRETARY: Thank you very much.

11709   I would now invite WorldBand Media, OBCI, to come forward, please.

--- Pause

11710   THE SECRETARY: Gentlemen, when you are ready, please reintroduce yourselves for the record. You have ten minutes.

INTERVENTION

11711   MR. SHEA: Thank you very much. We have a slight change to our script, and the benefit is that we will be much shorter.

11712   Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners and Commission Staff. My name is Kevin Shea, and I am the Chairman of the Board of Directors of WorldBand Media Inc., OBCI.

11713   Thank you so much for inviting us to participate in this phase of the hearing. We will be very brief, but hopefully helpful.

11714   The members of the Touch FM team who will present to you today are:

11715   To my right is Prabha Selvadurai, President and CEO of WorldBand Media.

11716   Also to my right is Judy Tapp, Touch FM's General Manager.

11717   And to my right, again, is Pierre-Louis Smith, Touch FM's Regulatory Advisor.

11718   On my left is Brian Thomas, who is our Editorial Advisor.

11719   Prabha...

11720   MR. SELVADURAI: Thank you, Kevin.

11721   Thank you, Commissioners. On April 2nd, 2012, WorldBand respectfully submitted a written intervention setting out its views regarding the proposals of the other 21 licence applications.

11722   We stand by our submission and see no need to repeat all of our comments here. However, we wanted to make ourselves available to respond to any questions that you may have regarding our written intervention, a copy of which is attached for your reference.

11723   Our written intervention can be summarized by the following three charts.

11724   Chart No. 1: Music listening in radio is in steady decline.

11725   Commissioners, this is from your monitoring report.

11726   As you can see from the chart, tuning to music stations has been in steady decline since 2006, despite the fact that there have been over 100 additional music format stations licensed.

11727   Chart No. 2, which correlates with your data -- a conversion of FM music stations to the spoken word format is accelerating in the top 10 U.S. markets.

11728   If I may take one minute to explain the chart, if you look at 2006, that is where we see a decline in music. That is from the CRTC monitoring report. We took a look at which formats converted from music to news talk/spoken word. WTOP Washington, D.C., converted from a music FM station to the spoken word format in 2006.

11729   In 2007, there was a Houston station that converted.

11730   But if you look at the line, in 2010 there were two. In 2011 there were seven stations.

11731   We are looking at only the major markets. There are other markets, but we are just looking at the major markets.

11732   In 2012, two weeks ago, New York's No. 6 station, KISS FM, which has been a 30-year urban station, dropped their format and went to a spoken word format.

11733   And next week an Atlanta station with a classic hit format will be converting to the spoken word format.

11734   So that correlates with what is happening with music declining. Stations are moving toward a bigger opportunity in the spoken word format. They are all FM stations that we are seeing here.

11735   So, based on these two charts, and based on the market realities and dynamics, we have come up with our solutions.

11736   If you look at the Toronto market, there are 14 FM stations that have music formats, and two private AM stations that have news talk, which is the target we are doing, and one national station.

11737   So, if you look at the top line, that talks about why the larger population, the greater population, can be served by a spoken word format. And the bottom line shows all of the music applications, including Ryerson -- it's targeting a narrower format.

11738   And the top line clearly indicates -- and it is substantiated by the first two charts that I showed -- that music is declining and music stations are converting to FM with a news talk format, or some spoken word format.

11739   Thank you.

11740   We are skipping our positive comments, as per the Commission's request.

--- Pause

11741   MR. SELVADURAI: Once again it's me.

11742   We respectfully submit that the Ryerson application must be viewed as a music application and not as a community campus application in this competitive process.

11743   In any event, we know that campus audiences are niche audiences. In this competitive process, we submit that music niche services, including Ryerson, do not carry the public policy benefits of applications designed to offer a broader service to a larger Toronto audience.

11744   If WorldBand's application is approved, and in the event that the Commission wishes Ryerson, in the future, to have a voice on Toronto radio --

11745   MS HULLEY: I'm sorry, I hadn't noticed that part. I am going to ask you to skip to the next paragraph.

11746   MR. SELVADURAI: Okay. Thank you.

11747   With respect to the ethnic applications, WorldBand respectfully submits that licensing another ethnic applicant is not in the public interest, since the language groups are already well served, and another station would significantly impact the existing ethnic stations.

11748   Furthermore, as part of WorldBand's application, we seek to target Toronto's visible minorities and bring them into English mainstream media, and to address the issues they uniquely face, not in silos, but as Torontonians as a whole. No one else is doing that.

11749   Commissioners, we respectfully submit that a spoken word format that serves, speaks and listens to the largest demo in Toronto is what the market needs. Toronto FM is ripe for a spoken word private station, and our proposal would make the best use of the frequency.

11750   Thank you for this opportunity. We are available for your questions.

11751   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

11752   Could you elaborate on the top of page 9, where you submit that Ryerson's application must be viewed as a music application and not as a community campus application?

11753   Why do you submit that, based on what information, based on what assumptions?

11754   MR. SELVADURAI: I would ask Pierre-Louis to comment on that, but before -- this is a competitive process, and we had to look at what the public is being served, and the Ryerson application is -- rather than who is serving it. So it's served to the public as music. We looked at it as emerging artist music is their format, so that is the reason.

11755   Pierre-Louis, do you want to comment?

11756   MR. SMITH: Yes.

11757   Mr. Chair, it is quite clear that the status of Ryerson is a campus community radio station, but campus community radio stations are mainly music stations. They are providing diversity with respect to music, but the fact of the matter is, they are predominantly music stations.

11758   It is in that context that we submit that Ryerson, as much as the Triple A format, or the other music proposals that you have before you, are niche formats and, in our view, will not attract a significant number of listeners which will help radio to repatriate listeners. It is in that context.

11759   THE CHAIRPERSON: So are you suggesting that the Commission do away with campus community radio as a form of station?

11760   MR. SMITH: No, that's not what we are saying, Mr. Chair. We are just saying that, as a matter of fact, a proposal like the one by Ryerson will provide, if licensed, mainly music. Therefore, in our view, it would serve only a niche audience and would not help radio, in this market, to repatriate tuning.

11761   THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that the Ryerson format is different from the CIUT or any other campus format that exists out there today?

11762   MR. SMITH: No, that's not what we are saying, Mr. Chair. All campus community radio stations are mainly music stations, including the proposal by Ryerson.

11763   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you.

11764   MR. SELVADURAI: I just want to add one comment, Commissioners. In our CCD -- we want the community and the campus radio stations to flourish, that's why we put five, zero -- 50 percent of our CCD allocations into the Community Radio Fund.

11765   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

11766   THE SECRETARY: Thank you very much.

11767   For the record, MTSD Broadcast Inc. will not be appearing in Phase II. I will, therefore, call on Radio 1540 Limited to come forward to the presentation table, please.

--- Pause

11768   THE SECRETARY: I would ask that you please reintroduce yourselves for the record. You have ten minutes.

INTERVENTION

11769   MR. LOMBARDI: Good morning, Mr. Chair, Commissioners. My name is Lenny Lombardi, and I am President of CHIN Radio/TV International here in Toronto.

11770   With me today is Stephen Armstrong, the author of the Armstrong report filed with our application.

11771   To the right of Stephen is Grace Fusillo-Lombardi, the Community Liaison Director for this application.

11772   To her right is Mr. John Hylton, a consultant to CHIN Radio.

11773   To my left is Theresa Lombardi, Vice-President and General Manager of CHIN Radio operations.

11774   To her left is Dario Amaral, our Programming Director and Vice-President of Sales.

11775   Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, none of the applicants envy the Commission's Solomonic task of choosing 1 out of the 23 competing applications that you have so diligently listened to in the last ten days.

11776   But you have established guidelines in your call regarding 88.1 that helped both applicants in coming before you and the CRTC in its decision-making process, namely: quality of the application, diversity of news voices in the market, market impact, and competitive state of the market.

11777   In searching for some convenient and relevant analysis, we found that the Ryerson presentation, in support of its excellent application, does provide some assistance in its file research that notes: "There are 30 FM radio stations based in Toronto, 4 on university or college campuses and 2 community stations."

11778   The report goes on to note the 10 top stations in direct competition with Radio Ryerson. The main competition includes 8 stations, listed as follows: CIUT, CBL, CKHC, CARN, CBLA, CHIN Radio -- we made the list -- CMR and CHRY.

11779   The analysis goes on to list what it establishes to be several key attributes. Here is a sample of its quotes that we think make an important point:

11780   CIUT, at the University Toronto: "Provides alternative to mainstream media...projects an underground vibe..."

11781   CBL Toronto, Radio 2: "...recently changed programming that added world music and live music."

11782   CKHC, Humber College, is "focused on community involvement...campus life features prominently."

11783   CARN, Intercity Broadcasting: "Early adopters of technology and internet-savvy."

11784   "...a commercially run station but are attempting to reach out to the community..."

11785   CBC Radio One: "Mostly talk radio."

11786   "They are a strong voice for the members of the Toronto Community but do not cater much to a younger demographic, even though engaged youth cited the station in our survey."

11787   CMR: "CMR targets the South Asian market. There is a large Hindi market being served..."

11788   CHRY Campus Radio, York University: "Community based..."

11789   "Alternative programming..."

11790   "Claim to be the most diverse programming...hip-hop, Reggae, African, Punk, Rock, Ska, Blues and Jazz. They do not focus on Dance/Techno and electronic genres."

11791   CHIN Radio Multilingual: "32 different languages, involved in community events programming, does not focus on new music, mostly older hits."

11792   "Listeners can tune in at a specific time..."

11793   "CHIN does not target second-generation, younger listeners."

11794   Mr. Chairman, may we suggest that Ryerson's research clearly shows that there is already incredible diversity in the Toronto radio market, with many stations, with a variety of formats, providing service to smaller audiences, with programming that is intensely local by design.

11795   It seems that the applicants in this proceeding for new mainstream radio stations are fighting for increasingly small and obscure genres of music, whereas the history of the existing stations' evolution in the GTA shows quite sensible and quite nimble evolution of their program schedules as originally licensed. They shift their target audience by either plunging into the latest trend or moving to cover off the more lucrative mainstream, or both.

11796   If there is a programming need, I think we can expect that at least one of the many mainstream radio stations that are available in the Toronto market will respond to that need.

11797   Some of the ethnic applicants have decided to go "main stream", but they are really fishing in the "main creek". The South Asian market, a fairly large but specific ethnic sector, is already well served. There are about 440 hours of radio programming available each week in a South Asian language. Four of the last six ethnic radio stations licensed by the Commission have proposed to focus primarily on the South Asian community. Ethnic radio stations provide a good level of service downtown and into the bedroom communities around the GTA, such as Oakville, Mississauga, Ajax, Brampton, King City, Hamilton and Markham.

11798   It is claimed that CHIN does not serve a younger audience. At present, CHIN provides a needed service to people of all ages, whose language of comfort, the language in their homes, daughter to grandmother, father to son, is neither English nor French. CHIN provides its programming in established blocks of time to longstanding ethnic groups and newer groups.

11799   Over the years the groups' basic composition does not change rapidly, unlike the fluid music programming offered by commercial radio.

11800   CHIN's role has always been and will continue to be to help people in their family's language to understand the social, cultural and political reality of Toronto and Canada, and to try to alleviate the concerns that new arrivals face in dealing with enforcement agencies, political life, immigration policy, and the day-to-day issues of licensing, taxes and regulation. No other applicant has proposed to take on this full-time --

11801   MS HULLEY: Excuse me, this relates to your application.

11802   MR. LOMBARDI: That leaves CHIN as an applicant hoping to fill the role of serving an audience of almost three quarters of a million new or newer Canadians in the GTA.

11803   MS HULLEY: That is also --

11804   MR. LOMBARDI: Cut that out?

--- Laughter

11805   MR. LOMBARDI: In conclusion, CHIN is uniquely positioned to accept early-year financial losses --

11806   MS HULLEY: That is also --

--- Laughter

11807   MR. LOMBARDI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Commissioners. We are available for any questions that you may have.

11808   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I don't think there are any questions, and you will get a chance to embed that into your final Phase IV reply.

11809   Thank you very much.

11810   MR. LOMBARDI: Thank you very much.

11811   THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

11812   I would now invite Mr. Sivakkumaran, OBCI, to come forward to the table, please.

--- Pause

11813   THE SECRETARY: All right.

11814   I think we are ready when you are ready. Go ahead, please.

INTERVENTION

11815   MR. SIVAKKUMARAN: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Vice Chairman, Commissioners and Commission staff.

11816   Thank you once again for the opportunity to appear before you today. My name is S. Sivakkumaran and I am the President and CEO and controlling shareholder of the applicant.

11817   I am pleased to be here to present our Phase II intervention to competing applicants for FM 88.1.

11818   Number one, our intervention to all applicants proposing non-ethnic service is as follows.

11819   Demographic Reality of Toronto:

11820   The non-ethnic market is well served already by a wide variety of broadcasters who can apply to the Commission to change their format if there is a case for an evolving audience.

11821   As such, the reality is none of the non-ethnic services being proposed for the use of 88.1 truly captures the diversity of languages, as well as the multicultural and multi-ethnic reality of the GTA, nor the needs of second generation ethnic Canadians.

11822   Further, it is extremely evident ethnic communities are underrepresented in the radio market when you compare hours of service per population size by a factor of two.

11823   In terms of quality of service, the mainstream community on FM receives one hour of service for every 1,200 people, while ethnic communities get four times less service for every 5,800 people.

11824   The question then arises if this situation should continue given the reality that the mainstream population is declining in proportion to ethnic population, here the numbers present a compelling reality check.

11825   The ethnic population would number 5.6 million by 2031 and would represent 63 percent of Toronto from the current 43 percent.

11826   Ethnic communities are growing by a factor of 10 compared to the mainstream population growth.

11827   Licensing a non-ethnic service would result in creating a further disparity of service that ethnic communities face and the radio market will not reflect the multicultural, multilingual and multi-ethnic reality of Toronto now and for any foreseeable future, a factor that has deep implications for second generation ethnic Canadians who see society outside of the radio sector change to embrace their needs.

11828   Development of Local Ethnic Music:

11829   Of my fellow commercial English-language applicants for 88.1, none have proposed airplay for third language music. As such, local ethnic artists will not get any airplay or promotion of their music should any one of these stations be licensed.

11830   As you may know, airplay and promotion have the biggest impact in the development of an artist's career.

11831   The Toronto radio market has 17 mainstream music stations that provide about 750 hours of airplay to mainstream Canadian Artists, and eight ethnic stations dedicate about 53 hours of airplay to ethnic Canadian artists.

11832   Mainstream Canadian artists get greater than 10 times more airplay than ethnic Canadian artists.

11833   Developing Canadian ethnic artists should be a priority for a multicultural nation like Canada and this would require additional airplay through a viable station.

11834   To address this disparity between ethnic and mainstream Canadians, our station has committed to provide 15 percent airplay to ethnic Canadian artists. Toronto is the hub for ethnic Canadian artists and increased airplay will create an infrastructure to promote them today and in the future as their population proportion increases.

11835   The CRTC has had an immense impact on the promotion of local Canadian music and on the establishment of an entire mainstream Canadian music industry. You now have the opportunity to equalize and spread this vision by helping to establish local Canadian ethnic musicians through licensing an ethnic station.

11836   Intervention to English Music Applicants:

11837   The mainstream community receives programming in multiple music genres; two adult contemporary, two hot adult, two top 40 CHR, adult hits, CHR, rhythmic CHR, jazz, modern rock, classic rock, country, classic hits and oldies.

11838   With many stations duplicating music formats and playlists, existing stations have the ability to change their formats to serve any unexposed music genres within the mainstream listenership.

11839   With so many stations with experienced and capable broadcasters who have the financial capacity and resources, it is hard to imagine a scenario where a huge audience exists that they have not discovered and serviced.

11840   Mainstream music stations have been in operation for many decades. The radio market is well established and has stabilized to meet the needs of its audiences.

11841   If any new trends in music arise, there are multiple mainstream stations that are capable of filling such a demand.

11842   Intervention to Spoken Word English Applicants:

11843   Mainstream audiences currently receive two sports news and talk; two general news and talk, one news and one news and general interest spoken word programming.

11844   There are several editorial viewpoints being expressed on news and talk formats. Existing stations cover varied topics of interest from sports, business, politics, current affairs, news, et cetera.

11845   Existing stations adequately reflect news and talk formats, and have the ability to expand additional service by changing their content to reflect any new topics of interest that appear to be in demand.

11846   Diversity of voices:

11847   Any new additions of English music, talk and news formats would fall under "duplication of service" and will not generate substantial new audiences to the radio market. Any introduction of service of this kind will only create a diversity of choice within a format with existing audiences.

11848   Also, the radio dial is dominated by mainstream ownership. On FM frequencies, only three of 19 stations are owned by members of the ethnic community.

11849   The radio spectrum on FM was mostly licensed well before the emergence of the ethnic population and this round of licensing should reflect the future growth and underrepresentation of ethnic ownership in the Toronto radio market.

11850   Intervention to Ethnic Applicant CHIN:

11851   The average potential population reach per hour of broadcast by our station is 204,000 while CHIN's is 71,000. The total potential population reach of our station is 1.3 million while CHIN's is 500,000.

11852   Our station has chosen to provide service to communities that will outpace the growth of the communities outlined by CHIN.

11853   MS HULLEY: Sorry, I'm just going to have to ask you to focus on the application.

11854   MR. SIVAKKUMARAN: All right.

11855   CHIN has not adequately reflected the needs of second generations Urdu, and Tamil communities which require service.

11856   CHIN simply does not understand the non-homogeneity of the South Asian community and believes that service in Hindi and Punjabi are sufficient for Tamil and Urdu audiences.

11857   CHIN also proposes to serve the Spanish community which already receives over 100 hours of service and is well served.

11858   CHIN proposes programming expenses of $81,000 in Year 1, increasing to $166,000 in Year 7. CHIN has very minimal expenditure to ensuring good quality programming and local reflection of programming.

11859   Granting CHIN the license will not increase diversity in the ethnic radio market as they possess three of eight ethnic licences that would reach the entire GTA. In terms of quality of signal, CHIN would have two of four of ethnic FM stations that reach the GTA.

11860   CHIN currently holds one FM and one AM license in the market and has had the resources to reflect the changing demography of Toronto's ethnic communities, but has not done so in its programming. This is the reality they have chosen.

11861   In conclusion, we believe a proposal that will serve the most number of underserved audiences and bring new listenership to the radio market that truly reflects the multicultural, multilingual and multi-ethnic reality of Toronto, especially those of second generation ethnic Canadians should be licenced.

11862   Thank you.

11863   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

11864   Any questions?

11865   Thank you very much for your intervention.

11866   THE SECRETARY: Thank you, sir.

11867   For the record, Sarabjeet Arora, on behalf of a non-profit corporation to be incorporated, will not be appearing in Phase II.

11868   We therefore invite Radio Ryerson to take place, please.

--- Pause

11869   THE SECRETARY: Sorry, we will take a 10 minutes break or is that --

11870   THE CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no.

11871   THE SECRETARY: Oh, sorry. I thought we were breaking.

11872   THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you guys ready? Go ahead.

11873   MR. BUCHANAN: We think we are ready, Mr. Chairman.

11874   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

INTERVENTION

11875   MR. BUCHANAN: We will find out in a moment whether we are ready or not.

11876   Thank you. You have copies already of our presentation. This flows primarily from Phase I where we were asked to compare our application to other applications. We hadn't dealt with the other applications at that point. So now we are back to answer the question about that.

11877   It turns out we have to try and unscramble those eggs a little bit to talk less in certain places about ourselves and to try and focus. However, in certain cases the sentence relates the two together which really was the question in the first place.

11878   So we'll do our best. We have hacked out several paragraphs here and if we go overboard you'll gong us.

11879   Before we do, earlier the folks from DAWG FM said that we had not received our technical authority. That's wrong. We did. We received it. We filed it with the Commission. We filed it.

11880   THE CHAIRPERSON: Add that into your last phase when you can do reply.

11881   MR. BUCHANAN: Thank you, we will.

11882   THE CHAIRPERSON: Because you do it at that time.

11883   MR. BUCHANAN: Sure. It's fine. It's a non-issue.

11884   Do you want to start now, Jacky?

11885   MS HARRISON: Good morning.

11886   Once again for the record, my name is Jacky Tuinstra-Harrison and I am the President of Radio Ryerson.

11887   With me today is Grant Buchanan, counsel to Radio Ryerson Incorporated.

11888   MR. BUCHANAN: As I mentioned, we were not planning to participate in this phase but something Commissioner Menzies said in Phase 1 caused us to think that we could add some value here this morning.

11889   He noted that our condition of licence proposal was for 45 percent CanCon from Category 2 but that, and I quote:

"There is a commercial proposal that offers just as much in terms of Canadian content and in terms of emerging artist commitment. Two years is 50 percent and there is another application that we have seen that it was actually as high as 60 percent." (As read)

11890   So we went back and read the other applications that we think were being referenced. We want to make the following comments.

11891   MS HARRISON: I don't believe we did a good job if we left you thinking that the sound of the three triple A applicants, or the sound of the Rock 95 station called Indie FM would sound like our campus community radio station.

11892   0ur application filed in December had committed to 45 percent Canadian content, half of which is emerging, so for 22.5 percent of overall music. One of the triple A applicants also committed to 45 percent Canadian content, half emerging, for 22.5 percent of overall music.

11893   The Rock 95 application committed to 40 percent Canadian content, 60 percent of which is emerging, for 24 percent of overall music.

11894   The other triple A guys were at 40 percent Canadian content with lower emerging music commitments as well, so you are correct there.

11895   The Canadian content and emerging music minimums we went in with in December on a quick scan seem to be similar to those of the other highest applicants but the similarity ends there.

11896   A closer look at the content of those commitments and what we proposed back in December when contrasted with the commitments of the other applicants highlights some critical differences.

11897   With respect to the numbers, we also said something else. In addition to 22.5 percent of all the music on-air being aired by emerging Canadian artists the same percent of all of the music played on-air will be new Canadian music. That is Canadian selections released during the six months prior to the time it is aired.

11898   We do not see that similar commitment on the part of the triple A applicants, 22.5 percent emerging Canadian artist applicant, or on the part of Rock 95, 24 percent emerging Canadian artist applicant, or any other commercial music applicant. And that's because commercial music radio simply works differently.

11899   Second of all, your hearing material and many interveners have placed an emphasis on diversity.

11900   Well, imagine you are a Ryerson student reviewing the triple A application or the Rock 95 applications. Ryerson is a diverse campus. More than 82 percent of Ryerson students do hail from one of the four employment equity designated groups and more than 57 percent of Ryerson students are members of visible minorities.

11901   So in reading these applications you, the student, wonder, "Okay, who are the Canadian artists these stations are going to be playing?"

11902   And as you read through the lists, the answer quickly becomes apparent. There is going to be a lot of rock music from white people. There will be a lot of male music.

11903   Commissioners, there is nothing wrong with that. I listen to it and so do lot of younger people: Tegan & Sara, Hey Rosetta, The Arkells, Arcade Fire, Feist. There are some really hip bands there.

11904   But when we surveyed the Ryerson students who are a microcosm of a young Toronto audience, independent and alternative rock was the third most popular kind of music.

11905   Finally, please take a look at the schedule we submitted in December, which we attached again to our oral presentation Monday. Monday through Friday, 6:00 to 9:00, 12:30 to 1:30, 3:00 to 6:00 is all 100 percent new selections by diverse emerging Canadian artists.

11906   These are the peak listening periods of the day and nobody else has proposed anything like that. No commercial station can afford to do that! The consultants will shrink that playlist in a hurry to the sorts of music, specifically over-representation of rock music that were filed with their applications.

11907   There is lots more I could say here especially if you want to talk about Top 40. We will be capped at 10 percent hits, and we probably won't come close to using those.

11908   In regards to spoken word, Triple A and Rock 95 or even Larche don't have anything like our commitments to spoken word, which is at the least 20 percent of our programming and all local. There was some confusion on this on Monday.

11909   Looking at our application, you will see we committed 20 percent of our programming as local --

11910   COMMISSIONER PENTEFOUNTAS: Can you please stop talking about yourselves?

11911   I'm sorry.

11912   MS HARRISON: Absolutely.

11913   MR. BUCHANAN: In closing, Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, we would ask you to think about that:

11914   Out of the three triple A and Rock 95 applications, two do promise 22.5 and 24 percent of their spins to emerging Canadian artists, just as Radio Ryerson promises 22.5. But have they committed to new Canadian selections that are less than six months old at airtime?

11915   Have they committed to playing nothing but new songs by emerging Canadian artists during peak listening periods like the morning drive, lunchtime, and the drive home?

11916   Have they committed to combine those commitments with a schedule, 20 percent of which is composed of nothing but local news? No, they haven't.

11917   If you were to license one of the triple A or Rock 95 applications, are we going to hear the hip hop, electronica, reggae, bhangra and all the other music that young people expect to hear if they are going to be drawn into a medium so many of them have abandoned? No, we aren't.

11918   So we thank you for prompting us to participate in this second phase. We were not ready to talk at that time about our commitments compared to those of other applicants and, thus, we were pleased to have that opportunity today.

11919   We would be pleased to respond to any questions you might have.

11920   THE CHAIRPERSON: Any questions for the application?

11921   Thank you very much.

11922   THE SECRETARY: Thank you very much.

11923   I will now invite MZ Media Inc. to come forward to the presentation table, please.

--- Pause

11924   THE CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready to proceed?

11925   THE SECRETARY: We are. Please go ahead.

INTERVENTION

11926   MS LAFONTAINE: Good morning, I'm Monique Lafontaine, general counsel and VP, Regulatory and Business Affairs at ZoomerMedia Limited.

11927   Excuse me. With me this morning is Mark Lewis, our external counsel at Lewis Birnberg Hanet.

11928   MR. LEWIS: Good morning.

11929   We intervene against all services that target 18 to 34 or 25 to 54 on the basis that they don't add diversity to the system. On the contrary, they exacerbate the already distorted system that provides almost no service for the under 18 or the over 55 and, especially, the over 65.

11930   Only by actually licensing us can you preserve what little age-related diversity there is now.

11931   Second, we intervene against those applicants who have unrealistic business plans and those who would waste the last precious FM frequency in Toronto on tiny communities that are already well served by others.

11932   We also question whether the generation with the lowest proclivity to listen to old-fashioned over the air radio, students, should be awarded Toronto's last remaining FM frequency. It would be truly bizarre to give 88.1 to kids who boast of not using old-school tech while denying it to the vast community of late adopters who actually love and depend on radio, our large audience of zoomers.

11933   Fourth, you've heard that a reformed Radio Ryerson has finally put in place safeguards to ensure that the sins of the past, the bad behaviour, the foul language and casual racism, the sub-standard broadcasting, the years of litigation and the extended months of dead air will not be repeated. But there's really no guarantee of that because in the very nature of a college community station there is no continuity of management and responsible control.

11934   Everyone knows that those who manage and are on air today will graduate tomorrow and move on. It's an endless revolving door of people passing through unfamiliar with the past and, given that they are volunteers, impossible to discipline.

11935   In any case, there are already a handful of such stations in the GTA, UofTCI, UT provides a variety of music and spoken word to students and the larger community. Radio York, CJRY, which I founded 42 years ago, continues to serve a large geographical area of the city at 105.5 on the FM dial.

11936   Radio Humber, 96.7, also provides students and broader community reflection. And the original Ryerson station, CJRT FM, provides a stellar service, with a broad jazz playlist, specialty programs and interviews with Canadian artists.

11937   With respect to the Triple A applicants and those applying for similar, younger-oriented music services, we offer the following comments, and you've heard them this morning.

11938   When CBC Radio Two reformatted its service, it captured what there is of a Triple A audience across the country. The failure of a number of such stations following the 2006 and 2008 competitive licensing hearings in western Canada bears witness to that fact.

11939   In fact, CBC offers a larger playlist, higher Can con and the greatest amount of exposure to emerging artists in the genre. CBC's recent announcement, that it will seek permission to sell advertising for Radio Two, should give such applicants pause.

11940   We have read reports suggesting that the CBC expects to derive as much as $50 million per year in revenue from such a service, which would have to mean 20 to 25 million out of Toronto alone at the expense, no doubt, of stations pursuing Triple A or similar younger skewing formats.

11941   Next, with respect to the applicants for ethnic services, we believe the ethnic radio policy has provided minority language groups in this city with the greatest variety of over the air SCMO and cable-based services in the entire country, if not North America.

11942   By our count and an audit that I conducted this past Sunday of over the air and SCMO, there are 11 over the air AM and FM services that are devoted to full-time foreign language programming, 12 if you count Chin's Nested FM transmitter.

11943   There are 13 more SCMO services covering virtually every minority language group such as Chinese, Vietnamese, Spanish, Portuguese, Farsi, Tamal, Punjabi, Bengali and Filipino, just to name a few. In fact, we lease SCMO sub-carriers to a Tamal service and a Farsi service, and they have widespread coverage in the GTA and beyond.

11944   As you've heard in past hearings, older listeners who do not speak English are more likely to listen to SCMO, so when you tally up the Tamal heard across the over the air FM, AM and SCMO, it makes you wonder how there could be construed as a lack of service to a community that FP Markets estimates to number only 85,000 in the Toronto CMA.

11945   The home language statistics for Punjabi in this 2012 study are similarly meagre. These groups are, by any measure, super-served, and yet our 65 plus cohort only receives one full service station. That's AM 740.

11946   Applicants proposing a variety of formats have projected revenue targets that are, in our view, very aggressive, indeed, unattainable. And we've provided a chart this morning, Channel Zero or 88 Biz, Michael Weckerle, Newcap, Teitolman and World Band.

11947   We know this market very well, and their audience share projections, together with their revenue projections, are not going to be realized by stand-alone FM stations against well-marketed clusters operated by Astral, BCE, Rogers and Corus.

11948   It's taken us years to attain even modest revenues that you have on record. And as we noted yesterday, the market has compacted by 10 percent since 2007. That's $28 million off in real money.

11949   Any application which projects and depends on $7 or 8 million of revenue in just 36 months is begging for a reality check. To that end, we're providing a chart that distils the audience share and revenue projections of those applicants taken from their applications.

11950   MME LAFONTAINE : Bonjour. Je vais procéder en français ce matin.

11951   Finalement, on aimerait discuter de la présentation de CJBC.

11952   Hier, Radio-Canada a soumis qu'il y avait 578000 francophones qui habitaient à Toronto. Le conseiller Pentefountas, qui semblait être stupéfié par ce chiffre, a posé des questions au sujet de la population, des cotes d'écoute de CJBC et de la possibilité que plus d'information locale soit offerte sur Espace Musique 90.3.

11953   Je peux vous dire très sincèrement que s'il y avait 578000 francophones qui habitaient à Toronto, ma vie et mon expérience en tant que Franco-Ontarienne serait très, très différente.

11954   Tout d'abord, il serait beaucoup plus facile d'élever et d'instruire ma fille en français dans la ville reine, et on entendrait le français sur les coins de rue, dans les cafés. On mangerait dans des restaurants dans le quartier du Petit Québec ou de la Petite France au lieu de Chinatown, Little Italy, Little India and Greektown.

11955   S'il y avait 578000 francophones à Toronto, il faut se demander pourquoi CJBC n'atteint un auditoire que de 22000 personnes par semaine dans le marché radiophonique de Toronto? Parmi ces 22000 personnes, seulement 1000 individus ont 60 ans ou plus.

11956   Il nous semble inconcevable que Radio-Canada invoquerait la Loi sur la radiodiffusion afin d'argumenter que le grand public à Toronto serait mieux servi par un service desservant un auditoire de 22000 personnes qui ont d'autres options médiatiques à leur disposition dans leur langue, un groupe de plus de 300000 personnes qui n'ont aucune alternative sur les ondes.

11957   Pour ce qui est des vrais chiffres, au paragraphe 13 du mémoire complémentaire de Radio-Canada, le diffuseur public a lui-même soumis qu'il y avait 45075 francophones qui habitaient à Toronto.

11958   Et nous notons que selon les chiffres de 2006 de Statistique Canada, nous sommes environ 42000 francophones qui habitons dans l'intérieur du contour de 5mV de la fréquence 88.1.

11959   De plus, selon les chiffres plus récents de "Financial Post Markets," soit de 2012, les francophones comptent environ 29000 personnes ici à Toronto.

11960   On aimerait aussi noter que les francos à Toronto ont d'excellentes sources médiatiques à leur disposition et à la mienne avec Espace Musique, 90.3, le réseau télévisuel de Radio-Canada, TFO, la Coopérative radiophonique, TVA, TV5 et plusieurs autres chaînes spécialisées.

11961   Finalement, on aimerait noter qu'il y a eu très peu d'interventions soumises à l'appui de la demande de Radio-Canada, tandis que plus de 1000 personnes ont demandé au Conseil d'octroyer 88.1 à la communauté ayant plus de 65 et 50 ans à Toronto.

11962   Pour conclure, on behalf of Moses Znaimer, if there is one thing that we want the Commission to take away from these interventions, it's that whether it's students, ethnics, Francophones or still more service in the 18 to 34, 25 to 54s, all have alternatives already in existence, other sources from which to get what they want.

11963   Moreover, these alternatives and existing options, generally speaking, involve relatively small sub-sets of the population. If other applicants don't get their wish, their constituents can still find plentiful and robust services elsewhere.

11964   Thank you.

11965   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

11966   COMMISSIONER PENTEFOUNTAS: A brief comment.

11967   D'abord, corriger l'épellation de mon nom.

11968   MME LAFONTAINE : Pardon.

11969   CONSEILLER PENTEFOUNTAS : Corriger l'épellation de mon nom. Ça va.

11970   Et deuxièmement, qu'il soit clairement indiqué dans le dossier que je suis facilement stupéfié. Alors, voilà! Merci beaucoup.

11971   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. That completes this phase.

11972   THE SECRETARY: This completes Phase II of Item 3 to 26 of the agenda, effectively.

11973   Do you wish to take a short break before Phase III, Mr. Chairman?

11974   THE CHAIRPERSON: Yeah, we'll take a 10-minute break.

11975   THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

--- Upon recessing at 1021

--- Upon resuming at 1044

11976   THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary, let's begin.

11977   THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We will now proceed to Phase III in which intervenors in the order set out in the agenda to present their interventions.

11978   We will now begin with the presentation of 1806628 Ontario Inc., The Media Group Inc., Diversity Emerging Music Collective, CJFM VF105.9 FM, which is not here, and I would invite them right now to come to the presentation table if you are in the room, please, and the Canadian Multicultural Alliance, who will all be appearing as a panel to present their intervention.

11979   We will begin with 1806628 Ontario Inc., The Media Group Inc. Please introduce yourselves for the record. You will have 10 minutes for your presentation.

INTERVENTION

11980   MR. CANALES: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, staff, applicants, audience at large. My name is Manuel Canales. I have attached some biographical information for your perusal at the end of the document.

11981   I would like to start this presentation with some of my wording from my written comments, intervention.

11982   We're having trouble understanding or simple don't want to participate that the Toronto GTA is, in fact, the first global city in the world. This should not be only an intervention call for a minimum diverse emerging content requirements and compliance execution of existing regulations, but a global opportunity for Toronto, Ontario, Canada and its diversity emergent artists.

11983   We hereby confirm that Canada has one of the best Canadian content development regulations in place, living proof of the success that our Canadian artists are having worldwide.

11984   This is a comments intervention in response to the broadcast consultation CRTC 2012-126 and 126.1 to all applicants and the Commission to propose minimum requirement of diversity emerging content and compliance of existing regulations.

11985   In fact, for five years in a row now, the United Nations has designated the Toronto GTA as the most cultural diversity in the world. This fact is supported by every statistic report available.

11986   However, we are still not providing greater opportunity and access to diversity and emerging artists, as the current programming of the Toronto commercial GTA stations does not reflect proportionately the community they are CRTC licensed to serve.

11987   The existing regulations. We'll refer to the Canadian Broadcasting Act (1991), where I quote:

"The Canadian broadcasting system should be effectively owned and controlled by Canadians. The Canadian broadcasting systems operate in primarily the English and French languages and comprise public, private and community elements, makes use of radio frequencies that are public property and provides, through its programming, a public service essential to the maintenance and enhancements of national identity and cultural sovereignty. English and French language broadcasts, while sharing common aspects, operate under different conditions and may have different requirements. The Canadian broadcasting systems should serve to safeguard, enrich and strengthen the cultural, political, social and economic fabric of Canada, encourage the development of Canadian expression by providing a wide range of programming that reflects Canadian attitudes, opinions, ideas, values and artistic creativity by displaying Canadian talent in entertainment programming and by offering information and analysis concerning Canada and other countries from a Canadian point of view, through its programming and employment opportunities arising out of these operations, serve the needs and interests and reflect the circumstances and aspirations of Canadian men, women and children, including equal rights, the linguistic duality and multi-cultural and multi-racial nature of Canadian society and the special place of Aboriginal peoples within that society and be readily adaptable to scientific and technological change.
Each element of the Canadian broadcasting system should contribute in an appropriate manner to the creation and presentation of Canadian programming. Each broadcasting undertaking shall make maximum use and in no case less than predominant use of Canadian creative and other resources in the creation and presentation of programming unless the nature of the service provided by the undertaking, such as specialized content or format or the use of languages other than French or English renders that use impracticable, in which case the undertaking shall make the great practicable use of those resources.
All persons who are licensed to carry on broadcasting undertakings have the responsibility for the programs they broadcast. The programming provided by the Canadian broadcasting system should be varied, comprehensive, provide a balance of information, enlightenment and entertainment for men, women and children of all ages, interests and tastes, be drawn from local, regional, national and international sources, provide a reasonable opportunity for the public to be exposed to the expression of differing views and matters of public concern."

11988   We refer to the Commission's licensing priority for Toronto Public Notice CRTC 2001-10. The GTA has a diverse multi-cultural, multi-racial and multi-lingual population, one that's rapidly increasing in size and proportion.

11989   There is a strong demand for new radio services to serve the ethnic population in the GTA and recognition of the needs of the ethnic population of the GTA; however, if and when suitable AM or FM frequencies can be identified, the Commission tends to give priority to the licensing of programming services that clearly reflect the diversity of languages as well as the multi-cultural and multi-ethnic reality of the GTA.

11990   We refer to the definition of emerging artists as per broadcasting regulatory policy CRTC 2011-316.

11991   For their part, the Canadian Association of Broadcasters, CAB, and the Canadian Independent Music Association, CIMA, propose the definition to the following effect, again altered slightly for the purposes of the research:

"An artist would be considered an 'Emerging Canadian Artist' if he/she is Canadian (that is, meets the "A" criterion of the MAPL system) and has never previously charted or reached the Top 40 position on the music charts listed in Schedule A or the Top 25 position on the music charts listed in Schedule B.
An artist shall retain the status of 'Emerging Canadian Artist for a period of 36 months from the date he/she reaches the positions on the music charts mentioned above.
If an artist who is a member of a duo, trio or group with an established identity launches a solo career or creates in company with others a new duo, trio or group with a new identity, this solo artist or new duo, trio or group will be considered a new artist for 36 months following the date its selection under the new identity reaches the positions on the music charts mentioned above."

11992   As per my written comments, interventions, we pledge to present some programming research paper of the current programming in the airwaves of the GTA indicating the lack of representation of diversity emerging programming directly related to the population base community that the broadcasters are licensed to serve.

11993   So we referred to the latest BBM, Bureau of Broadcasting Measurement, a non-profit Association owned by its members, Canada's Broadcasters and Advertising Agency, ratings report -- please note that a rating report that currently doesn't measure audiences in third languages -- to get the Top Line BBM PPM, Portable People Meter.

11994   The survey was the latest November 28th, 2008 (sic) to Feb. 26th. Demographics is Adult 2+, Daypart Monday 2:00 am to Sunday 2:00 am. Geography is the Toronto central area. This is done by the respondent.

11995   We listed the Top 10 stations by audience shares. I'll just read the radio station and the share.

11996   CHFI has got a 15.8 share. CBLA, 11 point. CHUM, 9.8. CFTR, 7.6. CILQ, 6.0. CKFM, 5.8. CHBM FM, 5.7. CFRB, 5.2. CFNY, 5.0. CFMZ, 4.7.

11997   Then we look at each station's playlists, the ones they have available on charts, for artists, music and their websites searching for Cultural Diversity reflecting the GTA cultural diversity with the following results.

11998   CHFI FM has less than five percent artist cultural diversity. Same station has only two mentions, one on women's and the health issue about cultural diversity.

11999   CBLA, CBC, 50 percent Canadian music for Category 3 and 20 percent for Canadian music Category 3, seems to be corresponding each week, and they have 766 mentions about cultural diversity, 320 mentions about diversity emerging artists in radio.

12000   CHUM FM 104.5, less than five percent artist cultural diversity. Several mentions about cultural diversity.

12001   CFTR 680, talk station, doesn't play music, so we look at their mention about cultural diversity. They have 233 mentions about cultural diversity.

12002   CILQ, less than five percent cultural diversity. Several mentions about cultural diversity.

12003   CKFM, less than five percent artist cultural diversity and several mentions about cultural diversity.

12004   CHBM, less than five percent artist cultural diversity and several mentions of cultural diversity.

12005   CFRB, talk station, no music. Several mentions about cultural diversity.

12006   CFNY, less than five percent artist cultural diversity, five mentions about cultural diversity.

12007   CFMZ has got less than five percent cultural diversity in artists and four mentions opera, dance, choir and the film festival, about cultural diversity.

12008   In addition to the research that the Applicants have presented here, we look at the Applicants in terms of the transcripts of the proceedings that have gone through here and we search for the following words in all of these discussions we've been having since May 7th: diversity, emerging, diversity emerging and cultural diversity, with the following mentions of the word usage results in the Applicants' presentations and the Commission's question and answer period.

12009   During the May 7, there was nine mentions of diversity, 15 mentions of emerging, zero mentions of diversity emerging, one mention of cultural diversity.

12010   On May 8th, 20 mentions of diversity, 90 on emerging, zero again on diversity emerging and zero on cultural diversity.

12011   May the 9th, 15 diversity, 49 emerging, zero on diversity emerging, two on cultural diversity.

12012   May 10th, 23 diversity, three emerging, zero in diversity emerging and zero in cultural diversity.

12013   May 10th, 23 -- I think I read that already. Sorry.

12014   May 14th, diversity -- May 11, sorry, 14 on diversity, 12 on emerging, zero on diversity emerging, zero on cultural diversity.

12015   May 12th, 31 on diversity, 17 on emerging, zero on diversity emerging and two in cultural diversity.

12016   So as to measure the use of the words in the context of usage in the language (French Presentations excluded) in representation of plans and proposals for benefits to the CRTC for diversity emerging, cultural emerging artists, groups in the GTA.

12017   In conclusions and recommendations, they're consistent with what we presented in our written statement, is that within the 35 percent or more requirement of Canadian content airplay, the Commission to regulate the minimum diversity emerging content requirements proportionally mirror-reflecting the percentage of diversity existent in the market at the time of licensing (new or renewal) and compliance execution of existing regulations and, finally, granting regulated access to Canadian diversity emerging artists, as the current programming of the Toronto commercial GTA stations does not reflect proportionally the community they are CRTC licensed to serve.

12018   Sixty -- example, 60 percent of the GTA market diversity (annually measured by Statistics Canada and BBM), then 60 percent of the Canadian content level, or 21 percent.

12019   Number (2) Level the field and increase the requirement of Canadian content on ethnic broadcasters to 35 percent as per the commercial broadcasters, granting regulated access to incremental Canadian content artists and percentage of corresponding level of Canadian diverse emerging artists.

12020   With the current population levels in the GTA alone, there are hundreds of diversity emerging artists with recordings to supply content to fulfil this commitment.

12021   Number (3) Regulate all broadcasters to provide annual diversity and emerging artists benefits performance levels reporting. Last diversity report from the CAB was for year 2009 and the Commission accepted their proposal that they didn't need a diversity research, for radio, that is, and could use the TV portrayal one.

12022   Engage the regional broadcasting and music associations like the Ontario Association of Broadcasters to produce suitable diversity programs represent --

12023   THE SECRETARY: I'm sorry, sir. I'm going to have to ask you to conclude. Your time is up.

12024   MR. CANALES: I've just got two lines to do.

12025   THE SECRETARY: Please conclude. Yeah, if you can finish your two lines.

12026   MR. CANALES: To produce suitable diversity programs and educate their members on diversity representation, regulations.

12027   SOCAN, FACTOR, et cetera, and all other similar organization to report detailed information and quantification of diversity emerging artists' participation in the Canadian broadcasting system (spins, sales, productions, databases of groups, collectives, bands).

12028   And number 4, and finally, enhance the definition of emerging artist to include diversity emerging artists in content requirements proportionally mirror-reflecting the percentage of diversity existent in the market.

12029   We are positive that augmenting the access levels of Canadian diversity emerging artists and music will enhance compliance execution of existing regulations, and create even a greater global opportunity for Toronto, Ontario, Canada and its diversity emerging artists.

12030   Thank you to the Commission for the opportunity to present today. I look forward to any questions that you may have.

12031   THE SECRETARY: Thank you, sir. The questions will come after all presentations.

12032   We will now hear Diversity Emerging Music Collective. Please introduce yourselves for the record. You will have 10 minutes as well.

INTERVENTION

12033   MS DE LA TORRE: Good morning. I have with me two under-served, under emerging artists. One is Michelle. She's Italian and representative of Dirty Maria rock band here.

12034   On my other side, we have Rasta Fel. Rasta Fel is from Trinidad, Canadian, and the best friend of Mark Wahlberg and the radio stations -- he's a singer, rapper-singer.

12035   The radio stations call him to have appointments and bring --

12036   MR. P. THOMAS: Interviews.

12037   MS DE LA TORRE:  -- interviews with Mark. They never play his music. They know them, but they never play his music.

12038   Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, Commission staff, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Magdala de la Torre, and I'm a double immigrant, a citizen of Canada and extremely proud to be part of the diverse Canada entertainment industry.

12039   We have addressed the CRTC on several occasions, at all times opening the eyes of the CRTC with issues rarely heard by the Commission. Below, we are using captions of our previous presentations in a chronological order.

12040   1999, for third language and ethnic programming Toronto with its 60 percent plus of ethnic penetration demands a diversity video and radio calendar.

12041   Today we have increasing new audiences of second- and third-generation ethnics that have grown up in our great multicultural fibre. While targeting programs for Canada's multicultural reality, Canada needs programs that encompass the bridging from first to second and third generations. Mainstream media, with very few exceptions, does not pay attention to this increasingly growing audience.

12042   2006. Help, I'm independent. Help, help, I'm diverse too. Our Spanglish radio show at CING Energy 108. In these hearings we learned that the radio stations live or die by attracting listeners. Well, we have good news. In Spanglish, the music in Spanish and the spoken word in English, on a Sunday night 8:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. via BBM we found that we had become the number one station above 98.1 FM in the elusive 12-34 demographic. Enclosed copies of the BBM papers for your use.

12043   2007, diversity of voices proceeding. The CRTC, the Cancon percentage, the number of diversity residents in Canada and the radio industry as a whole has changed drastically in the last 30 years. What has not evolved proportionately is the lack of representation and exposure that the diverse communities and the Cancon diversity members receive from the Canadian airwaves.

12044   Is the CRTC able and willing to make the changes and uphold safeguarding and enriching the cultural, political, social and economic fabric of Canada?

12045   The result of this hearing and the changes to the regulations will be part of the Canada where in several Canadian cities the visible minorities have become visible majorities. Will those majorities be properly represented? The future is in your hands, Chairman and Commissioners of the CRTC.

12046   Today, almost five years later my words are too, too similar. The "Globe and Mail," the most-read national newspaper in Canada, is dedicating the month of May to "Our Time to Lead: The Immigrant Answer."

12047   Does the CRTC have all the answers to diversity in radio? Does the broadcaster? Do we at the collective? No, but working together maybe we will.

12048   On our last presentation in September 2007 we had two options: follow Commissioner Cugini's suggestion and solicit funds from Astral for our plans or hear the Chairman's repeated suggestion, let the market talk.

12049   The Chair mentioned at that time: Isn't that a numbers game? When you have a sufficient number from one language or from one ethnic group, then in effect it becomes very lucrative to serve them and you will have people going to that market.

12050   We waited for the market forces to produce access changes for diversity in radio. Not yet.

12051   In Toronto for many years we have had sufficient numbers from several languages and ethnic groups and it is lucrative to serve them. The mainstream media does not go after that market except for a few exceptions, "The Star." They do know them -- they do not know them, they do not speak the language, do not know how to deal with them, et cetera, et cetera.

12052   For years we have been collecting databases and emails of diverse emerging artists around Canada to find out the reality and feelings about the issues.

12053   As promised, we surveyed the country coast-to-coast, communicated with over 15,000 Canadian artists, and we are now in closing some of their letters, that range from simple support for diversity in radio to complaints about the industry and even the Junos.

12054   Our plans to help diversity emerging artists range from information on affordable rates for their music arrangements, and finally, one of the Collective's main goal, access to airplay on radio and exposure to the media and events.

12055   With a focus on diversity emerging artists, we at the Collective are very concerned at the lack of representation of them in our Canadian radio and television stations -- particularly the lack of Corus funding to represent a reflection of diversity emerging artists in the Greater Toronto Area, where there is a near 60 percent of diverse population -- and are ready to work bridging the access gaps and creating awareness, while relaxing the fear of the unknown that is worrying the broadcasters and the CRTC.

12056   For example, the creation of DESA, Diversity Emergency Service Announcement instead of a PSA. We at the Collective will send radio stations monthly information bulletins with pertinent information, thus creating awareness to the stations and a way of recognizing the listeners as a member of the community. We will be able to receive proof of performance after.

12057   We at the Collective have spoken to a well-known rockstar in Canadian radio to do a coproduction with Dirty Maria, a local Latin rock band that is an emerging artist with less than 2,000 albums sold.

12058   We have a meeting with an entertainment lawyer in the next two weeks to finalize a complete plan to approach both sectors, the diverse emerging artists and the ways of helping an industry that is exploring how to jump to an unknown diversity world to encourage a healthier and more realistic portrayal of ethnic and visible minorities.

12059   We require funding. That seems to be available in great quantities but lacks access direction to the diversity emerging artist sector.

12060   Enclosed please find CRTC notices and CAB correspondence dated from December 2006 to January 2009, including highlighted comments with our remarks; furthermore, a list of 26 artists with various commentaries.

12061   We will finish with the words of a Juno award winner, Billy Bryants from the Parachute Club group, who died this past April 23rd. In his letter of submission to us, included in our CRTC submission, in 2007 he said:

"Allow us to live in a Canada that acknowledges, welcomes, cherishes, protects and fosters diversity."

12062   Thank you very much for the opportunity.

12063   THE SECRETARY: Thank you, ma'am.

12064   I would ask CJVF 105.9 FM, are you in the room? You are. Thank you very much. So you may start your presentation. You have 10 minutes.

INTERVENTION

12065   MR. ROGERS: Mr. Chairman, Commissioners and Commission staff --

12066   THE CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, is there a document that we should be looking at?

12067   MR. ROGERS: Oh, yes.

--- Pause

12068   THE SECRETARY: Please continue.

12069   MR. ROGERS: Thank you.

12070   Mr. Chairman, Commissioners and Commission staff, the panel before you represents CJVF 105.9 FM, the original licence holder of the frequency which Mr. Bola is applying for, item 5 Tuesday, May 8.

12071   We at CJVF 105.9, a low-power FM on the air March 19, 2012, oppose the application of Mr. Bola's application to use the same frequency of 105.9.

12072   We were just licensed by the CRTC and, yes, we understand about the CRTC policy on low-power FM, but since we were only licensed in December of 2011 and, after testing, Industry Canada gave the on-air authority March 19 and we hit the airwaves on April 1 of 2012, we feel this would really be a miscarriage to the Tamil community to lose a station that is building a following, not to mention the considerable amount of money paid out already, close to $150,000, including the advertising.

12073   We are also not clear why a Tamil newspaper keeps advertising that they know that we would have to move off our frequency to make room for theirs.

12074   We also note that both stations would not be able to operate on the same frequency, and technically, even though Mr. Bola maintains it would be a better use of the frequency, he maintains it would be predominantly English with close to 40 percent ethnic.

12075   Reading his application it appears there is a good possibility even though some of the programs and music will be in English, they would still be ethnic-based.

12076   We will point out briefly under these unusual circumstances why we should remain on the 105.9 frequency.

12077   Samy...?

12078   MR. APPADURAI: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners and members of the staff. My name is Samy Appadurai.

12079   Canada has the largest Sri Lankan Tamil population outside of Sri Lanka, and the former City of Scarborough in the GTA has over 65 percent of them, inclusive of the Tamils who have migrated from India, Malaysia and Singapore.

12080   The majority of the Canadian Tamils are more inclined towards living with their heritage values in their day-to-day lives while becoming integrated and they have been looking to have an FM radio channel that broadcasts primarily in the Tamil language, with the inclusion of programs produced and starring local artists. I thank the CRTC for licensing FM 105.9.

12081   Although the first language of the second generation is English, their way of life and their interests in having culturally appropriate programming is important, for the medium of radio is an essential mode of communication and is a vehicle for promoting and discussing Tamil culture as well as current events within the community.

12082   Among the first generation of Tamils, as any other group of neo-immigrants who were taught in their mother tongue and lived in a monocultural background, the Tamil language radio channel 105.9 is making their life better along with increasing their productivity. It makes them feel more at home in Canada.

12083   Furthermore, most of our business enterprises, community organizations, places of worship and the potential markets are also centered in and around Scarborough, in which most of the Tamil community resides.

12084   Therefore, in the best interest of this great nation's multiculturalism policy and the Tamil community, I ask that this Tamil radio station be allowed to continue its work.

12085   Thank you.

12086   MR. SATHIYANATHAN: Good morning, Chairman and Commissioners. My name is Sathiyanathan, Vice-President of Business Development.

12087   My role started in Tamil One. We started off with two clients and now we are 95 percent sold out. This includes corporate accounts such as GM, TD Bank and Western Union. When we got the licence for the radio, some of our clients were happy to take out combo buys for TV and radio.

12088   Now when the controversy got out in the Tamil community regarding 105.9, less than four weeks after we hit the airwaves, a lot of our advertisers became confused after reading our articles in Tamil newspapers and Web sites. Some of our clients voiced concerns over the uncertainty of what was happening to 105.9.

12089   We tried to assure them we were the licence holders, but due to the continuous advertising and the Web site information on what was happening to 105.9, clients started cancelling their advertising until they felt comfortable the issues were resolved.

12090   So not only did this hurt us at 105.9 but the ripple effect caused a loss of some advertising on Tamil One, our television station.

12091   Moving to another frequency after all the work we have done will cause severe hardship and it will cause damage to our relationship between our clients and us.

12092   Smaller stations already have a struggle to secure advertising. We have worked very hard to secure what we have, and changing now to a different frequency would be an advertising and marketing nightmare and the consequences would ultimately hurt the station, the staff and the Tamil community as we have started to build a good Tamil following on 105.9 CJVF.

12093   MR. ROGERS: And finally, several other stations in this hearing have recognized us, CJVF, and, I quote, "would like to see the impact of CJVF has been established."

12094   Another one said:

"The Commission recently licensed a station to serve primarily the Tamil-language community in Scarborough and Markham. The addition of another competitor providing Tamil and South Asian will split the market even further."

12095   And finally, the Mayor of Markham, Mr. Scarpetti, appearing with Mr. Bola's presentation, said, and I quote:

"I leave it to the due diligence approvals process to ensure the technical merit of this application and also ensure that there is no frequency interference with other already established stations. I support this new application for Markham, yet also request that the CRTC ensure that there is a responsible plan that meets this application's technical requirements as well as the continuance of other stations in the same frequency range that are currently serving our diverse community."

12096   We are that other licensed station on 105.9 and we ask the Commission to reject Mr. Bola's application to use that frequency.

12097   Thank you.

12098   THE SECRETARY: Thank you very much.

12099   I believe you did not introduce yourselves for the record before your presentation. Could you please do so?

12100   MR. ROGERS: I'm sorry. Frank Rogers.

12101   THE SECRETARY: Mr....?

12102   MR. SATHIYANATHAN: I'm Sathiyanathan, Vice-President of Business Development.

12103   MR. APPADURAI: I'm Samy Appadurai, Consultant of this radio station.

12104   THE SECRETARY: Thank you very much.

12105   We will now hear the Canadian Multicultural Alliance. Please introduce yourself for the record before beginning your presentation. You have 10 minutes.

INTERVENTION

12106   MR. PARTHIBAN: Mr. Chairman --

12107   THE CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, is there a document that we need to work from?

12108   THE SECRETARY: Yes. You have it.

12109   THE CHAIRPERSON: I have it? I don't have it. I didn't get it.

--- Pause

12110   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I'm sorry, go ahead.

12111   MR. PARTHIBAN: Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, and very respected Commission staff, my name is Kris Parthiban representing Canadian Multicultural Alliance.

12112   This is the Canadian Multicultural Alliance's negative intervention to Mr. Bhupinder Bola's application number 2011-1271-3 to serve Markham on the FM band with a hybrid format, 61 percent English and 39 percent ethnic.

12113   We would like to make the following observations to support our negative intervention.

12114   Compared to the other applications submitted for Markham, Mr. Bola's application does not carry broad spectrum in programming. Markham is more highly populated by ethnic communities than any other city in the GTA.

12115   Number two, Mr. Bola's application only carries 39.5 percent ethnic programming. The other application will carry 100 percent ethnic programming. We welcome the idea of the other applicant which will carry 15 languages and cater to 22 groups. Mr. Bola will carry only nine languages and cater to only five groups.

12116   We have also noted from the information on the CRTC Web site that Mr. Bola has obtained more than 25 CRTC licences, which none of them are operating and some of them have expired already. On the other hand, he also tried to sell one of his licences and was turned down by CRTC. Mr. Bola doesn't seem to understand the CRTC rules and policies, especially toward licence trafficking.

12117   Number four, we understand that having a broadcasting licence is a privilege, not a right. Our suspicion is that if the Commission grants a licence to Mr. Bola he may not be able to build the station and would be forced to sell his licence to a third party.

12118   Mr. Bola's idea of mixing ethnic languages with English programming is by no way a good broadcasting practice. As a mainstream language there are English stations here that will always be available to listeners. This is essential to attract and maintain a stable audience.

12119   Number six, Mr. Bola is suggesting adult contemporary type of music AAA format. Then where are the other formats? What happens if the listeners do not adult contemporary? He or she will stay away from the station. How much percentage will like adult contemporary?

12120   Over the years, Markham listeners have taken a habit to identify themselves to the different types of many formats from the GTA English stations which have a strong signal penetration and Markham. It was discussed at this hearing that an AAA format does not work very well in Canada.

12121   The Canadian Multicultural Alliance disagrees with Mr. Bola's proposal to relinquish the ethnic programming to nighttime and weekend periods. Why should we South Asians and other multicultural people not be able to receive a reliable South Asian station radio station 24 hours a day, seven days a week? The visible minorities population of Markham, as per the Statistics Canada 2006 Census, shows over 65 percent of the population to be visible minorities.

12122   As Mr. Bola is applying for an FM frequency that, if approved, would severely jeopardize the future of a neighbouring low-power FM station that caters to visible minorities, primarily South Asians, the Canadian Multicultural Alliance cannot accept this situation.

12123   We strongly feel that Mr. Bola's project is due to failure. The Canadian Multicultural Alliance has no choice but to respectfully ask the Commission to deny the application 2011-1271-3.

12124   We thank the Commission for giving us this opportunity to present this intervention. Thank you.

12125   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you all very much.

12126   Are there any questions from -- Commissioner Menzies?

12127   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: I have a question for Mr. Rogers.

12128   I had checked with the -- the fact that you have launched CJVF is news to us because it is not in the CRTC database as having launched yet and I just wanted to check if you had notified the CRTC that you have launched yet?

12129   MR. ROGERS: Yes. And Industry Canada will also, from what I understand, sent a letter to the CRTC. Now, Industry Canada, they have moved.

12130   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Yes. I have nothing to do with Industry Canada, but did you notify the CRTC?

12131   MR. ROGERS: Yes, we did.

12132   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: And on Wikipedia it says that you are broadcasting only in Tamil. Are you broadcasting in all the languages that you were licensed to or are you broadcasting only in Tamil?

12133   MR. ROGERS: At the moment we are broadcasting in Tamil. We have negotiations that were under way for the other languages that -- we have only been on the air four weeks and the problem -- or six weeks, I should say -- and the problem was when this controversy came up --

12134   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay, I just wanted to know whether you were or not --

12135   MR. ROGERS: Yes.

12136   COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  -- because your condition of licence says that you have to broadcast in four languages.

12137   MR. ROGERS: Yes, that's what we are --

12138   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: And you have launched and you are not broadcasting in those languages.

12139   MR. ROGERS: Well, that's what we are trying to do, sir.

12140   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: But you're not.

12141   MR. ROGERS: Sorry, at this -- as of today no, we are not.

12142   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay.

12143   And just for the record, you are asking us to subordinate an application to operate day and night in an official language to meet the needs of an adjacent operator operating in a nonofficial language?

12144   MR. ROGERS: Could you repeat that question, sir, please?

12145   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: The Bola application, as I recall, is to operate primarily in one of Canada's official languages, English, and you are asking -- you are saying that we should give that less priority than the needs of CJVF, which is operating in a nonofficial language?

12146   MR. ROGERS: No, we are not saying that, sir. What we are saying is we are fighting to keep the frequency of 105.9. That's what this is all about.

12147   COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay, thank you. That's all.

12148   Commissioner Poirier...?

12149   COMMISSIONER POIRIER: Yes.

12150   I would like to ask a few questions to the representative of the Canadian Multicultural Alliance, sir.

12151   Today, in paragraph 4 you say that Mr. Bola may not be able to build a station and would be forced to sell his licence. May I ask you on what facts you relied to make that affirmation?

12152   MR. PARTHIBAN: Just from what we have seen, the history, obtaining more than 25 CRTC licences, none of them are operating today and some of them have expired already. That is the reason we are saying that.

12153   COMMISSIONER POIRIER: Okay. Thank you.

12154   But the fact that he gathered a team with him, he came in front of us with a big group, okay, and he got the support of at least 2,000 names, plus 25 documents in support, doesn't it mean that he's not alone in this and the team could be credible and reliable?

12155   MR. PARTHIBAN: We are just basing it on our observation mainly from the history of his activity.

12156   COMMISSIONER POIRIER: Okay. Thank you, sir.

12157   THE CHAIRPERSON: Any other questions?

12158   Thank you all very much.

12159   Can we get the next panel up, please?

12160   THE SECRETARY: Yes, please.

12161   I will now call CINA 1650 AM Radio and the Canadian Multicultural Radio to please come forward to the presentation table.

--- Pause

12162   THE SECRETARY: So we will now proceed with the presentations by CINA 1650 AM Radio and Fairchild Radio Group Ltd., who are appearing as a panel. I will remind you that you have 10 minutes -- I'm sorry, let me just -- yes, you have 5 minutes each, 10 minutes as a panel. Please introduce yourselves for the record before beginning your presentation.

12163   We will start with CINA.

INTERVENTION

12164   MR. RAY: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners and CRTC staff. My name is Neeti Ray, I'm President of C-I-N-A, CINA Radio, 1650 AM.

12165   This intervention is in opposition to the applicants who are proposing programming targeting the Indian and Pakistani communities of the GTA, namely Radio 1540 Limited; MTSD Broadcast Inc.; S. Sivakkumaran, OBCI; Sarabjeet S. Arora, OBCI; 8041393 Canada Inc. and Bhupinder Bola, OBCI.

12166   The Commission must gauge the extent and adequacy of programming currently available to this community and whether additional programming targeting this community is warranted at this time.

12167   Licensing an ethnic radio station proposing Indo-Pakistani programming will have an adverse impact on CINA Radio.

12168   CINA was licensed to serve primarily the Indo-Pakistani community of the GTA in six languages. This radio station went officially on air on 1 February 2009.

12169   As the attached program schedule of CINA Radio shows, the vast majority of our programs are in Hindi, 79 hours a week, and Urdu, 20 hours a week, including those during the most important morning and afternoon drive time blocks.

12170   The third-largest number of hours are devoted to Punjabi programming, 23 hours a week. We also broadcast in Gujarati, 2 hours a week, Bengali, one hour, and Armenian, the only non-South-Asian program, one hour a week.

12171   Our programming targeting the Indo-Pakistani community is of course further augmented by hundreds of hours of Punjabi, Hindi and Urdu programming provided by seven other local radio stations, CIAO, CJMR, CIRV-FM, CHIN-AM, CHIN-FM and CJSA and CHKT, not to mention WTOR 770 AM, an American radio station with its main studios here in Etobicoke. That station devotes a major part of its programming to target GTA's Pakistani community, and to a lesser degree the Punjabi community.

12172   Not including this U.S. station we calculate that there are over 400 hours of South Asian programming on air in Toronto each week. This does not include the new predominantly South Asian FM radio station licensed in Decision 2011-756, CJVF. This new radio station will broadcast 60 percent of its programming in Tamil and 20 percent, or 26 hours a week, in Punjabi.

12173   In addition to these radio stations the South Asian community in the GTA has access to a wide array of television programming services. There are now at least 36 specialty television services that offer programming in Hindi, Punjabi, Urdu, Bengali or Gujurati, or a combination of these languages. Not only do these TV services offer a great deal of programming, many of them also compete directly with radio for advertising revenue.

12174   It is our belief that any frequency available to serve the GTA or any part thereof is very scarce public property. If it is to be used for third-language programming, then we suggest that it should be used to provide programming for groups that are the most underserved in the Greater Toronto Area. The Indo-Pakistani community is no longer underserved.

12175   In order to better explain how vulnerable CINA radio would be to a new radio service at this time, I would like to underline the fact that CINA Radio has faced severe technical difficulties ever since going on air in February 2009.

12176   We received CRTC approval for a daytime power increase from 1000 watts to 5000 watts, implemented in July 2011 to alleviate the interference problems within our primary coverage area. However, there are stringent technical conditions attached to the approval.

12177   Essentially we still operate at reduced power levels starting in the late afternoon, 90 minutes or one and a half hours before sunset, and continuing until 90 minutes after sunrise. During the winter months our drive-time programming block is particularly affected by the power reduction.

12178   While we are doing everything we can to overcome our difficulties, it is unlikely to happen in the very near future given the substantial cost of moving the transmitter site to one that would allow a higher power multi-tower array.

12179   CINA was not profitable as of the year ending August 2011. We hope to break even or be marginally profitable just in the current year.

12180   At the least, the Commission should provide some time for CINA to become better established and for the station licensed in 2011 also to find its place in an already crowded market.

12181   We respectfully request the Commission to deny the applications seeking to provide additional South Asian programming.

12182   Thank you for the opportunity. I will be available for any questions to be answered.

12183   THE SECRETARY: Thank you very much, sir.

12184   We will now hear the presentation of 3885275 Canada Inc., otherwise known as Canadian Multicultural Radio Inc.

12185   You may now proceed. You have five minutes as well.

INTERVENTION

12186   MR. ANTONY: Mr. Chairman, esteemed Commissioners, CRTC staff and members of the public gallery, my name is Stan Antony and I am a controlling shareholder as well as the Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Canadian Multicultural Radio.

12187   With me today is Ragavan Paranchoty, Director of Public Relations and Community Development for CMR.

12188   Canadian Multicultural Radio is here today to oppose the application for multicultural stations being considered in this proceeding and to reinforce the message in our written intervention that licensing another multicultural station for Toronto, especially one that targets the Toronto South Asian communities, is not in the public interest.

12189   CMR is the licensee of CJSA-FM Toronto and we have been proudly serving the ethnic communities of Toronto since 2004. As an existing GTA ethnic station we have a special concern about the applications for new multicultural stations being considered in this proceeding.

12190   Ragavan is the drafter of our written intervention and I will turn it over to him now. Thank you.

12191   MR. PARANCHOTHY: Thank you, Stan.

12192   Our opposition to the multicultural applications is based on a number of factors, most importantly of which is that the proposed stations will be directly competitive to our own station. Adding a new competitor without a clear and unequivocal demonstrated need for a new service will only serve to weaken us and the other existing GTA stations, as well as make it extremely difficult for any new station to operate successfully. We see no benefit in this.

12193   The GTA currently has a significant number of ethnic stations already, nine full-time private ethnic stations, with a 10th one that just launched. In addition, we note that Toronto is also served by 11 ethnic stations which are community-based.

12194   Of particular concern to CMR is that each of the proposed multicultural stations appears to be targeting the South Asian and Tamil communities.

12195   Mr. Chairman, the GTA already has a significant amount of programming directed at the Tamil and other South Asian communities, with over 400 hours per week, including over 100 hours directed to the Tamil community broadcast by a number of existing ethnic broadcasters.

12196   In fact, Toronto's South Asian population has the largest amount of programming hours of all the various ethnic groups served by Toronto radio. The second-largest group is Toronto's Chinese community with 190 hours per week.

12197   Mr. Chairman, none of the ethnic applicants has filed any cogent evidence that Toronto's South Asian population is underserved by the existing ethnic broadcasters. Some of the applicants have attempted to justify their language choices by indicating that they will reach a number of smaller South Asian communities.

12198   However, all of the ethnic applications propose to provide the largest share of their programming to one of a few groups, such as Punjabi, Urdu, Hindi or some combination thereof. These applicants appear to be basing their language choices on the fact that Toronto's South Asian population is continuing to grow.

12199   Population growth on its own is not an indication that more radio hours are required. Radio programming is not a one-to-one medium, it is one-to-many. As a result, this increased South Asian population will be able to enjoy the South Asian programming currently being broadcast.

12200   Justifying a new competitive service on population growth completely ignores current service and puts existing stations like CMR at risk.

12201   Mr. Chairman, our concern is further warranted when one examines the economic performance of Toronto's ethnic stations as compared to the English-language stations. In 2010 the PBIT margin for nine GTA ethnic stations was 10.6 percent, whereas for the 28 total stations in the market it was 30 percent.

12202   The recent launch of a full-time Tamil-language FM station in Scarborough already has an impact on the revenue and profits of the existing stations. We note that this station is broadcasting 100 percent Tamil programming and is operating at a possible radiated power of at least 200 watts, despite the Commission's conditions of licence mandating service in at least three languages, including 60 percent Tamil, at a maximum radiated power of 45 watts intended just for Scarborough.

12203   It is clear that the introduction of yet another ethnic station in an already highly competitive Toronto ethnic market will only make the situation worse. This cannot be in the best interest of the Toronto South Asian community.

12204   We do not oppose the application of Radio 1540 and Bhupinder Bola as they are not proposing to target the South Asian community. However, without Commission help there can be no assurance that either or both will not decide to later change their mind and start targeting the South Asian community.

12205   We note that in CMR's original application we indicated that we will not provide any programming in Italian, Portuguese or Chinese languages so as not to be competitive with the then existing ethnic stations. The Commission noted these commitments in our decision and imposed a condition of licence requiring that 48 percent of our programming be in the Tamil, Hindi and Filipino languages.

12206   We strongly request the Commission take a similar position with Radio 1540 and Mr. Bola and impose on them commitments and conditions of licence that would ensure that these respective services are not able to redirect programming towards Tamil, Punjabi, Hindi or Urdu audiences.

12207   MR. ANTONY: In conclusion, we urge the Commission to consider carefully any decision to grant a licence to one of the ethnic applicants in this hearing. Most of them are significantly based upon service to the Tamil and/or other South Asian communities that already enjoy significant hours of programming.

12208   Given the relative weak economic performance of the ethnic stations in Toronto as compared to the English-language stations, CMR believes that the addition of yet another ethnic station in the market will have a negative impact on the existing stations.

12209   We submit that only undeniable evidence of a clear demand for additional service that can be satisfied by a new service without cannibalizing audience and revenue from existing services can be used to justify a new service that is competitive with existing stations in the market. This undeniable evidence has not been presented and does not exist.

12210   Thank you for allowing us the time to present our case and we would be pleased to answer any question. Thank you.

12211   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you both.

12212   Any questions from the panel?

12213   Seeing none, thank you both very much for your appearance today.

12214   MR. ANTONY: Thank you.

12215   MR. PARANCHOTHY: Thank you.

12216   THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary...?

12217   THE SECRETARY: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

12218   I will now call upon Mr. Daniel Besharat and Mr. Greg Duffell.

12219   As for Madam Paulette Andrea Hamilton, I don't think she is in the room today.

12220   And while the next presenters get ready, I would like to inform all parties that the Commission intends to hear all applicants wishing to appear in Phase IV today. Please note that we will conclude the hearing today. Therefore, all parties must be ready to present this afternoon.

--- Pause

12221   THE SECRETARY: Mr. Chairman, we are ready to proceed with presentations by -- just for the record, Mrs. Paulette Andrea Hamilton is not here, so will not be presenting today.

12222   We will start with Mr. Daniel Besharat. You have five minutes for your presentation. Please proceed.

INTERVENTION

12223   MR. BESHARAT: Thank you, Madam Secretary.

12224   Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, Vice-Chair, Commissioners and Commission staff. My name is Daniel Besharat. I would like to thank the Commission for providing time for my comments.

12225   My familiarity with community radio is as a result of my 10-year involvement with Ryerson CKLN-FM.

12226   Radio Ryerson's proposed programming does not fill a gap for the Toronto listeners. CIUT, CHRY, CBC Radio One and 2, PROUD FM, CKHZ, CIRV, CHIN and G98.7 FM, as well as others, already broadcast the bulk of proposed programming.

12227   In my time at CKLN I have witnessed high Canadian content, ethnic spoken word and student involvement commitments failed to be delivered upon time and again. Radio Ryerson lacks a fundamental understanding of the operations and limits of a campus community radio station.

12228   Furthermore, Radio Ryerson will not be able to deliver their grandiose plans due to logistical impracticalities, single-source funding and financial uncertainty.

12229   The Ryerson students, like the Waterloo students before them, could withdraw the majority of funds to this new station at any time. A referendum is fairly simple to initiate and the Ryerson Board of Governors' only interaction is to decide whether the question is clear for the students.

12230   Ryerson President Sheldon Levy suggested students defund CKLN in March 2009. CKLN had decades of financial turmoil, as outlined in Table 1.

12231   Will Radio Ryerson awaken a renaissance of local Canadian music in Toronto and be the saviour of radio in Canada or is it more likely that the station will descend into infighting and anarchy, with violations of the regulations, as CKLN before it?

12232   Only 10 percent of students bothered to vote in the referendum to fund Radio Ryerson. When it appeared that quorum would not be reached, the voting hours were extended by two hours and Ryerson professors and staff entered classrooms and coerced students to vote. Students voting yes were under the expectation that they were voting for a student radio station and not a community station, based on the promotion surrounding the campaign.

12233   Ryerson President Sheldon Levy described the revocation of CKLN's licence as "no loss" and said that in today's Internet world students can practice "their talents in infinite ways."

12234   The various surveys used by Radio Ryerson were poorly designed and led to biased conclusions. The use of in the street interviews only around Ryerson and small sample size calls into question the validity of the results and the ability to apply any conclusions to the area covered by the proposed signal. The design and results of the survey were tailored to support predetermined conclusions.

12235   The agreements entered into by Radio Ryerson will constantly put the station in jeopardy. CKLN signed virtually identical agreements with the same parties. This was a major area of concern in the decision rendered to revoke CKLN's broadcast licence.

12236   There are no written guarantees that Ryerson administration will protect Radio Ryerson. Nothing has been codified in any agreement presented with the application. Promises can quickly vanish when people move on and a situation turns ugly.

12237   The proposed bylaws missed the nature and spirit of the Campus Community Radio Policy. Community involvement, probably one of the most promising aspects of a campus community station is being impeded by a set of bylaws created to eliminate that involvement in management and running of the station.

12238   In conclusion, it seems to me transparently obvious that Radio Ryerson is just CKLN reborn. CKLN's former station manager, Jacky Harrison, is the new president of Radio Ryerson.

12239   Vancouver's campus-based community station CITR-FM Program Director urged supporters to write letters to the Commission attempting to "get CKLN their spot back." Ryerson was given two chances at organizing a radio broadcast operation and both times was unsuccessful.

12240   Campus community radio is vital to the Canadian broadcast landscape, but an application that is so flawed and unrepresentative of the various stakeholders is not one that should be granted a licence.

12241   I find it more important to consider the holistic approach and quality of a campus community radio applicant than the number of stations in a given market.

12242   Granting Radio Ryerson Incorporated a licence to broadcast at 88.1 FM will simply be a repeat of the past. Lessons have not been learned.

12243   Mr. Chair, Vice-Chair, Commissioners, staff, thank you for your time and allowing me to present my thoughts as part of this hearing. I will be happy to answer your questions with regard to my submission and comments.

12244   THE SECRETARY: Thank you very much.

12245   Mr. Duffell, please proceed.

INTERVENTION

12246   MR. DUFFELL: Thank you.

12247   Mr. Chair, Mr. Vice-Chair, Commissioners and Commission staff, I appreciate the time allotted me in this proceeding to provide my opinions and thank the Commission for this opportunity.

12248   My interest in the 88.1 FM applications extends from my personal experience in Toronto community radio over decades, first as a listener and financial supporter, and later in the role of volunteer and broadcaster at CKLN.

12249   I appeared before the Commission as an intervenor in the December 2010 hearings into CKLN.

12250   It's a familiar scenario that we have all witnessed: a well-known local enterprise goes out of business, only to show up in the same location, under a slightly different name, with the previous owner and employees using equipment liquidated in the prior company's fire sale.

12251   While this is perfectly legal, there are consequences in terms of public perception and legitimacy. One would reasonably question whether the problems that caused the interruption in business have been solved or simply papered over.

12252   Case in point: CKLN becomes Radio Ryerson.

12253   CKLN's most recent station manager becomes Radio Ryerson's inaugural President, Secretary and Treasurer.

12254   Radio Ryerson's first "volunteer representative" turns out to be an influential, 17-year veteran CKLN programmer and Board member.

12255   The RSU and Palin Foundation, who locked the community and students out of CKLN in 2009, are both back.

12256   Is this what the application refers to as "completely new" and a clean break from CKLN?

12257   Hatched in July 2011, while students were on summer break, Radio Ryerson came to a referendum when students returned in the fall. Despite an enormous amount of publicity around campus, just over 10 percent of students voted. What does it say about the state of our democracy that this level of turnout is lauded as being indicative of a groundswell of support for this or any other initiative?

12258   And if there is such a thirst for over-the-air broadcasting at Ryerson, why was there not more care and interest when CKLN actually had a broadcast licence that absorbed hundreds of thousands of student dollars each year? I witnessed barely any significant student and absolutely no faculty or administration involvement in all of my years at CKLN.

12259   Is it credible that the Ryerson President or the 30,000 students were completely powerless to turn a bad situation around? Students needed only to obtain 100 signatures to call a Special General Meeting to express their views, yet that never happened -- more evidence of apathy running rampant at Ryerson University, at least when it comes to side issues such as a CRTC-licensed station run amok.

12260   Ryerson's Radio and Television Arts faculty maintain their own internet broadcaster, "Spirit Live", offering students course-related radio broadcast experience and a creative outlet within a state of the art facility. Given the relevancy between youth and the internet, perhaps maybe voter turnout would have been higher had the question been about Ryerson having the best funded and publicized internet radio station in Toronto. Now, that would be "completely new".

12261   It is acknowledged that this radio "real estate" is a valuable commodity. I witnessed how so-called volunteers were allowed to use their program slots, sometimes for decades, for their own personal financial and business interests. Given a licence, they will be back knocking on the door. Radio Ryerson has not submitted policies in their application to preclude this destructive activity from repeating.

12262   This brings me to Radio Ryerson's governance, as represented in their bylaws. I am deeply troubled about what constitutes membership in this organization, the use of designates and proxies, and the lack of a chain of command and responsibility. I challenge that this Board is balanced. There will be no "membership" funding drives at Radio Ryerson, and only nine elite people attending their AGMs. My criticisms of the Radio Ryerson bylaws are manifold and contained in my written intervention.

12263   In conclusion, it is my impression that Radio Ryerson, its participants and advocates, project a sense of grand entitlement to the frequency 88.1 FM. This hearing demonstrates how sought after and valuable this licence is, and underscores what Ryerson squandered in the past and is desperate to reclaim, perhaps more to satisfy their pride and reputation than to be a home for innovative broadcasting.

12264   No matter what sector and company is ultimately granted the licence, it is the quality and integrity of the participants that is paramount to ensuring the service to the public over its term.

12265   The Radio Ryerson application falls short and I would recommend not granting it the licence for 88.1 FM.

12266   I thank you very much for your indulgence.

12267   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you both very much for your submissions.

12268   I just have one question, Mr. Besharat. Paragraph 13 of your submission this morning says that the proposed bylaws miss the nature and spirit of the Campus-Community Radio Policy, and that community involvement is being impeded by a set of bylaws created to eliminate that involvement in management and the running of the station.

12269   What would it have had to do, in your mind, in order to be more balanced and represent what you believe to be the audience it should be representing?

12270   MR. BESHARAT: A set of bylaws that doesn't allow community members an easy path to the Board, and to be involved with management of the station, is not a set of bylaws that I would consider open to the community.

12271   The number of steps that a community member would have to go through to be on this Board -- in fact, it is probably easier to become the mayor of Toronto than it would be to become a member of the community on CKLN's Board.

12272   If they had arranged a system, some sort of -- as was mentioned about other stations, a membership drive, where members of the community could either donate their time or money, and that would, then, allow them to attend a meeting, and then vote and stand before the rest of the members and say why they feel they are qualified, and then the members would get to vote for them, some sort of an open process, I think that would have gone a long way.

12273   The current structure of the bylaws is virtually locked down.

12274   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

12275   Are there any other questions?

12276   Commissioner Molnar...

12277   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Thank you.

12278   Good morning. It is nice to put a name to the faces that we have seen here since the beginning of this hearing.

12279   I read both of your interventions very carefully. They are, clearly, very detailed. You have, clearly, spent a lot of time following this hearing and the record on the Ryerson file.

12280   I also note both of your past experience with Ryerson and CKLN.

12281   I just wondered, Mr. Duffell, you stated early in your presentation that your interest in 88.1 extends from your personal experience in community radio, and I just wanted to ensure -- because I know that you have both put a lot of time and effort into this -- do you have any commercial interest in any of the applications that are before us in this hearing?

12282   MR. DUFFELL: Absolutely none.

12283   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: None?

12284   MR. DUFFELL: No, absolutely none.

12285   MR. BESHARAT: I will go on the record, as well. I have no interest, and I am not involved with any of the other applicants.

12286   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Okay. Thank you very much.

12287   MR. BESHARAT: Thank you.

12288   THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Simpson...

12289   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Gentlemen, thank you very much. I marvel at your ability to sit still for two weeks. It's one of the challenges of this job. At least we get a chance to move and squirm a little bit.

12290   What I am interested in, in terms of your intervention, is: you tried to deliver a knockout punch with respect to Ryerson being considered for the renewal of their former self on the basis that Ryerson is not proposing anything different and runs the potential of sliding back into previous performance and habits.

12291   But my question to you is this: What are you defending?

12292   Are you defending the reputation of Ryerson by this intervention?

12293   I mean, obviously, by my take, if I were as passionate as you are about the importance of campus and community radio, I would be trying to see the applicant succeed, and then work on improving the merits and the quality of their operation, rather than delivering a knockout blow.

12294   So what is it that you are defending, the reputation of the campus or the reputation of community radio and campus radio, in your intervention?

12295   MR. BESHARAT: I believe it's the second that is more, the integrity of the campus community radio sector as a whole.

12296   I was a bit shocked that there weren't more campus community-based applications for this process. I would have loved to have seen more of them.

12297   I think that there are two things there. First of all, I think that some people, in some circles, have the predetermined idea that Ryerson is guaranteed this application, that they are the rightful inheritors of this application, and that might have stopped some of the applicants from being involved.

12298   Throughout my ten years of experience at CKLN, I have offered CKLN multiple meetings -- fix this, fix that, make the station a better place, become more inclusive, don't allow all of these breaking of the regulations to be done over the air. Totally ignored.

12299   I have spoken with other individuals, from other community campus stations, and they have always been aghast as to what CKLN got away with in the past, and I could just throw my hands up, saying: I have done virtually everything I can.

12300   I think that, in the end, what you have to do is, you have to come before a panel like the Commission and just tell them what the facts are on the ground; what Radio Ryerson chose not to tell you, versus what the reality is. I think that is the best that we can do.

12301   MR. DUFFELL: If I could put in my two cents' worth, my interest is in community radio. I spent many years, as I said in my intervention, listening and being a fan, and becoming a broadcaster there was a bit by accident, really.

12302   I think it's the quality -- as I said in my speech, it is the quality of the presentation.

12303   I mean, yesterday I was a bit chilled by what the President of the university was saying: the veto power, the control, the absolute, total control that was going on.

12304   In many ways, some of the good things about CKLN -- and I think there were some good things about it, it wasn't all bad, by any stretch of the imagination -- in principle, are being wiped away with this.

12305   They are sort of saying -- on the one hand, they are saying to you, "Look, this won't happen again," and this is such a lock-down situation here at this station -- it's never going to happen again, but are students on the campus of a university -- are they into being locked down?

12306   I mean, look at what we are seeing in Quebec now.

12307   I would hope they wouldn't be. I would hope that students would be more engaged.

12308   I was always shocked, as I said, that students weren't more engaged at Ryerson University. As I learned more about CKLN's operations, I wondered: Why aren't they here? Why aren't they involved? Why don't they care?

12309   We heard stories that the faculty were saying: Oh, don't go over there.

12310   But they were full members. Those students were full members. There were 20,000 or 30,000 of them. So I think that --

12311   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: I get your point, but it seems to me -- unless I am misreading you, you seem to be saying -- without really opening an old file, there was not a lot of governance before, benign neglect perhaps, too. But we now have been presented with a formula where there is significant governance, and I sense that you think there is too much governance overarching on the application, and yet, Mr. Besharat, you seem to be saying a different thing, in that there is not enough to prevent it from sliding back to its former self.

12312   Very briefly, are you on different sides of the fence with respect to governance?

12313   MR. DUFFELL: The thing about governance is that the division, as I read it in the policy, involves what appears to me to be four groups: the student body, the associated college/university, station volunteers, and the community.

12314   I don't see that in this application.

12315   They talk about one volunteer person, but who is to say that volunteer isn't a student?

12316   And it also suggests that the student representatives on the Board actually represent the students. Well, they really --

12317   What I learned at CKLN was that, once you got on the Board, you were representing the corporation. That was your primary use.

12318   MR. BESHARAT: If I may add one little point, the idea of the super votes is absolutely shocking. You would hope that a station would be able to have some level of manoeuvrability in tough economic times, or if their space was pulled away from them, or if financing was pulled away from them.

12319   Now, all of a sudden, you have a situation at Radio Ryerson where there could be a lock-up, a deadlock, where two sides don't want to give up power, and no vote will take place to move the station into a safe area, which could lead to not meeting regulatory requirements.

12320   That's an example that I -- when I heard that, I thought to myself: What an incredible way to lock a station in without properly looking forward to the future.

12321   COMMISSIONER SIMPSON: Thank you.

12322   THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Poirier...

12323   COMMISSIONER POIRIER: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

12324   I have one question, to continue, because I have been following the issue for quite a while, and I have never seen such fierce opponents to an application, never in my life.

12325   I was wondering, you are not involved in any other radio application here, but what did you lose in that battle?

12326   Isn't the community going to lose it all?

12327   MR. BESHARAT: As for my personal loss, I wasn't remunerated, in terms of my involvement with CKLN, so I did not lose any money.

12328   A certain level of joy, being a radio talk show host -- we couldn't get to go and perform on the air.

12329   Will the community lose? I think that the community will lose a lot more if Radio Ryerson is accepted under what it has presented as part of this application.

12330   In fact, I would argue that the word "community" should almost be even crossed out in their application altogether. Perhaps it should be called a campus station, or something else. They seem to have an identity crisis in terms of what they want.

12331   I believe that the community is not being served by the application of Radio Ryerson.

12332   MR. DUFFELL: I believe that, in the particular case of Radio Ryerson, when the community does not really have access, when there are no membership drives -- I don't see how that serves the community.

12333   What they were talking about yesterday, I believe, the subtext of it, when I'm listening -- of course, with my experience, knowing about the people involved in it and so on, and how things worked before, and how things tend to continue -- they already have it worked out who is going to be on the air, and it is probably people from the past, and they are going to be -- you know, maybe with the exception of some students, which, I think, will still be minimal.

12334   COMMISSIONER POIRIER: What have you lost in this battle?

12335   MR. DUFFELL: Lost?

12336   Which battle are you referring to?

12337   COMMISSIONER POIRIER: You have been working hard to make sure that Ryerson doesn't get a licence, and in the previous battle you were involved in the governance issue. You must have been doing that because you were losing something.

12338   MR. DUFFELL: I don't think so.

12339   I mean, the thing is -- I believe that you are referring to, you know, things from a few years ago, related to our experience at CKLN.

12340   COMMISSIONER POIRIER: Yes.

12341   MR. DUFFELL: What we lost was what the whole community could lose there.

12342   The main thing was that they weren't living up to their bylaws. It's one thing to have all of these great ideals, but when you don't actually follow your bylaws, when you take members -- strip membership cavalierly, when you have meetings that don't follow any protocols, what is it then?

12343   There are no safeguards. The bylaws don't represent any safeguards.

12344   COMMISSIONER POIRIER: Okay. Thank you very much.

12345   MR. DUFFELL: You're welcome.

12346   THE CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other questions?

--- Pause

12347   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for your interventions.

12348   Madam Secretary, why don't we break for lunch, and then we will come back and do the last phase.

12349   THE SECRETARY: What time would you like to come back, 1:30?

12350   THE CHAIRPERSON: One-thirty is fine.

12351   THE SECRETARY: One-thirty. Thank you very much.

--- Upon recessing at 1206

--- Upon resuming at 1332

12352   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, Madam Secretary. Let's begin the next phase.

12353   THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

12354   In response to a procedural request from Mr. Stanislaus Antony, OBCI, the Commission will permit Mr. Antony to appear first in the reply phase.

12355   So I would invite you, please, to come up to the presentation table. And when you are ready please introduce yourselves for the record. You have 10 minutes.

REPLY

12356   MR. ANTONY: Thank you.

12357   Mr. Chairman, esteemed Commissioners, CRTC staff, members of the public gallery and supporters of Canadian radio, I am pleased to be here today to present the reply of STAN FM 88.1.

12358   My name is Stanislaus Antony. I am the President and CEO of STAN FM 88.1.

12359   With me today is Ragavan Paranchothy, our Chief Operations Officer. Ragavan will be providing our remarks today.

12360   MR. PARANCHOTHY: Thank you, Stan, and thank you, Commissioners. I am beginning to get familiar with your faces already.

12361   Thank you for this opportunity to clear up some misconceptions or to respond to the questions we have had. Our reply address is four key points that were raised by various interveners with respect to Stan FM 88.1.

12362   The first point we wish to speak to is our emerging genres format. This is in reply to a concern raised by Media Group about the lack of opportunity for diverse music in Toronto, the concern raised by IBN that their format is best suited for 88.1, a concern raised by WorldBand that a music format is not the best use for 88.1 and incorrect statements made by Evanov and Fairchild that STAN FM 88.1 is an application for ethnic radio licence.

12363   With respect to statements made by Evanov and Fairchild that STAN FM is an application for an ethnic radio licence we can assure these companies that this is not the case. STAN FM 88.1 is an application for an English-language commercial FM radio licence to serve Toronto.

12364   Our format is music drawn from emerging genre, targeted to Toronto and is aged 18 to 34.

12365   STAN FM 88.1 assures the Commission that the concerns stated by Media Group, IBN and WorldBand with respect to an appropriate format for the Toronto radio marketplace will be fully met by our unique emerging genres format.

12366   Perhaps their concern is based on some confusion as to what exactly our emerging format is all about. This is understandable as it is a new genre. Let me explain.

12367   The music we will be playing will not be established. It will not be tried and true but, rather, it will be new and exciting and it will bring a new voice, music voice to Toronto.

12368   As stated in our application, this format provides an exciting mix of subcategory 21, for example soul, dance and hip hop tracks; subcategory 33, world beat and international music and subcategory 34, emerging jazz and blues sections -- selections, rather.

12369   Emerging genres is all about the type of music we will play. This music primarily will come from new and emerging artists but it will also come from established artists that are looking for a new sound.

12370   The playlist submitted with our application is but a tiny sampling of the richly diverse area of music available in this format whether from Toronto, the rest of Canada or the rest of the world. It's a format that is highly unique and perfect for drawing 18 to 34 year old Torontonians of diverse backgrounds to Toronto radio.

12371   It is also a format with a near limitless range of available content. We have seen this first-hand from the music submitted to Canadian multicultural radio each week, dozens and dozens of English-language tracks that do not fit into any established format and that would have no hope of getting on the radio in the current Toronto market.

12372   This music is brave. It is bold. It is uniquely different.

12373   Many of the original compositions would find a home on STAN FM 88.1. This unique area of emerging music is what sparked our decision to develop the emerging genres format in the first place.

12374   We are so excited by the prospect for its success and so confident that it will resonate with the young people of Toronto that we would gladly accept a condition of licence to maintain this format for our first licence term.

12375   The second point we wish to address is the use of emerging artists within our format. This is in reply to a concern raised by Media Group with respect to the lack of opportunity for emerging artists in Toronto radio. In fact, STAN FM 88.1 is all about new music in emerging artists.

12376   Our musical rotation relies heavily on emerging artists.

12377   Our spoken word programming focuses on emerging artists, especially those musicians from Toronto.

12378   Our CCD plan is all about support for emerging artists, especially in the local music scene. While our application noted a commitment of 35 percent Canadian content and 5 percent emerging artists, we were simply ad infinitum the minimums required by current CRTC policy.

12379   The reality of our commitment is much better reflected in the playlists submitted within our application. Of 13 tracks identified, six are Canadian emerging artists or approximately 40 percent.

12380   The inclusion of such a high number of emerging artists in our sample playlist was not by accident but by design. It is our intention to play 40 percent and likely more emerging artists in our music programming and we would accept a condition of licence to this effect.

12381   Mr. Chairman, STAN FM 88.1 is of a firm belief that the combination of emerging music and emerging artists will successfully attract young Toronto adults to radio.

12382   The effort required to address the challenge in building a young, new audience brings us to our third point, our projected audience share. This is in response to comments made by WorldBand with the respect to the ability of STAN FM 88.1 to attract its demographic and a 5 percent share of the Toronto listening market to our radio service.

12383   We must be clear here. STAN FM 88.1 is all about bringing new listeners to our station. Our target audience is 18 to 34 year olds who are not currently listening to radio. They are not currently part of the Toronto radio audience. In fact, it is probably a missed statement to suggest that our target audience will be repatriated when they they have never listened to much radio in the first place.

12384   The 5 percent market share set out in our application refers to 5 percent of the untapped listenership within our target audience. The 5 percent refers to 5 percent of adults, aged 18 to 34, not the overall Toronto radio market.

12385   As a result, we project we'll bring in 5 percent new 18 to 34 year old listeners in the range of 60,000 to 65,000 listeners weekly which will grow slightly each year as the population increases.

12386   It is our radio audience -- this is our radio audience and the audience of non-listeners that we have based our projections on. In a word, we will go the local listening audience. We will bring to Toronto radio an audience not currently listening to radio. This will be new listeners. The pie will get bigger with STAN FM 88.1 in the market.

12387   The prospect of playing new music supporting new artists and generating a brand new audience is exciting but it is also challenging. It'll take time for us to establish ourselves as an attractive commercial entity in the marketplace. Our revenues will be far less per share point as a result.

12388   Given this, our revenue projections are quite conservative for our first licence term. This in turn relates to the fourth point we wish to make today, our contribution to Canadian Content Development.

12389   Like our projected revenues, our CCD contribution of 700,000 over the first licence term is conservative and it is our minimum commitment. This is because it reflects the revenue limitations inherent in attracting a young, new demographic to the radio station. We will likely spend more than this minimum if our revenues permit. It's only good business to do so.

12390   We would of course commit to increasing our CCD in our second term should our numbers outperform our projections in the first seven years.

12391   As it stands now, we believe that our CCD commitment is targeted in the right direction and represents an important contribution to local talent support in light of the makeup of our audience and related revenues.

12392   We will also invest considerable resources above and beyond our CCD commitment in developing a database of emerging genre music. This database does not exist yet and it will prove to be a valuable resource that we will make available to the market to help this genre and to help artists that play this music get the exposure they need to grow and flourish.

12393   We at STAN FM 88.1 believe that our new radio station in Toronto should be all about investing in the future. We are that station.

12394   We will invest in new music. We will invest in new artists. We will invest in local Toronto music scene.

12395   In doing so we will bring the most exciting music format ever experienced to Toronto radio and great new opportunities for artists driving this content, including the substantial number of emerging artists that performed this music in Toronto. These artists need a place to showcase their music and we believe that STAN FM 88.1 is that place.

12396   Thank you for your time. We would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

12397   THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any questions from the panel?

12398   COMMISSIONER PENTEFOUNTAS: No.

12399   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Just one.

12400   THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Molnar...?

12401   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Thank you, just one question.

12402   At paragraph 24 you say:

"It's our intention to play 40 percent and likely more emerging artists and we would accept a condition of licence to this effect."

12403   MR. PARANCHOTHY: That's correct.

12404   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Is that new and revised from your application that you filed with us?

12405   MR. PARANCHOTHY: No, it is not. But the fact we're saying that would agree to a condition of licence is something that we are saying in our response to questions we had. But this is part of our application.

12406   COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: Okay, thank you.

12407   COMMISSIONER POIRIER: Mr. Chair, one question, please.

12408   Would there be a lot of multicultural emerging music in the emerging music you want to play?

12409   MR. PARANCHOTHY: Absolutely. It would be very -- do you mean from other languages?

12410   COMMISSIONER POIRIER: Yes.

12411   MR. PARANCHOTHY: No, this is an English-language programming undertaking so it would be in English. Of course, we will allow, you know, various flavours to come in, a little bit of you know the various cultural flavours to be part of that music.

12412   COMMISSIONER POIRIER: Thank you.

12413   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for appearing and we'll move on to the next applicant.

12414   MR. PARANCHOTHY: Thank you.

12415   MR. ANTONY: Thank you.

12416   THE SECRETARY: Thank you very much.

12417   For the record, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, CBC, had indicated they will not be appearing in Phase IV.

12418   I will now invite Intercity Broadcasting Network Inc.

12419   Gentlemen, please reintroduce yourselves for the record. You have 10 minutes.

--- Pause

REPLY

12420   MR. GORDON: Thank you very much. Good to see you again, Commissioners. Hope you had a good night's rest.

12421   My name is Fitzroy Gordon, and I am the President and CEO of Intercity Broadcasting Radio, CKFG G98.7, The Way We Groove.

12422   Beside me is my Vice-President and Chief Financial Officer, Mr. Delford Blythe.

12423   I am pleased to once again have the opportunity to address you on behalf of Intercity Broadcasting Network to provide additional clarity with respect to the strong merits of our application for a technical amendment to move from 98.7 to 88.1.

12424   Our presence at these hearings is to ensure that we can serve all of our targeted audience, including those who live in the east Toronto area who are currently being deprived of our programming.

12425   In our 2010 application, we recognized the technical limitations expected of 98.7 MHz, and we advised Industry Canada and the Commission in our technical brief that, I quote:

"...the coverage achieved is the best possible at this time; some important parts of the applicant's potential market are not well served, particularly Scarborough...The applicant intends to improve the availability of the station's programming and will pursue opportunities to improve the coverage as they become available through regulatory and technological developments." (As read)

12426   Commissioners, the opportunity is there now. This application before you is our first chance to fulfil our intentions to the Commission and Industry Canada, as stated in our 2010 approved application.

12427   We had no control over how soon that opportunity would have arisen. So despite the fact that we are only a mere five months old, it was imperative for us to participate in this process. I believe a soldier must always be ready to defend his people.

12428   A gentleman on the way called me and said, "Mr. Gordon, you got a licence in June and by October you were on the air. You should be commended and not criticized because no one has done it better."

12429   In our brief remarks today, we wish to address a few points that have been raised in regards to IBN's application during the intervention stage.

12430   Let's look at licensing of IBN without a competitive call, as some may say.

12431   Others have noted that IBN was licensed without a competitive call. Since the last competitive call in 2001, several Toronto radio stations have been licensed by the Commission, including CINA Radio and 103.9 Pride FM.

12432   We are, therefore, clearly not an exception. What the Commission did in awarding IBN a licence without a public hearing is not unprecedented. We also note that no other broadcasters applied for the 98.7 frequency.

12433   In Public Notice 1999-111, the Commission listed a number of exceptions to its general policy of issuing calls for competing radio applications. One exception was for "low power and other proposals with very little commercial potential."

12434   The fact that the Commission saw fit to license IBN in 2011 without a public hearing simply proves our point that the brand new World Beat format we proposed -- and are now delivering to the delight of hundreds of thousands of listeners -- was so lacking in this market, and furthermore demonstrates that our target audience was clearly the most underserved population in Toronto. We can, therefore, surmise that had there been a public hearing for any available frequency, IBN would have been in a good position to receive it.

12435   Let us now address the benefits of 88.1 FM versus 98.7 FM.

12436   Mr. Blythe.

12437   MR. BLYTHE: Mr. Chairman, let us look at the benefits of 88.1 versus 98.7.

12438   As stated in our Phase I opening remarks yesterday, the objective of changing the approved frequency of CKFG FM from 98.7 FM to 88.1 FM is to be able to increase the coverage to IBN's principal targeted market in the GTA east and northeast communities that are negatively affected by interference.

12439   Analysis of the demographics between 98.7's current and 88.1's proposed coverage area reveals the following:

12440   The total population in the interference-free contour increased significantly from 2.3 million to over 3.1 million.

12441   Total listeners in the new 88.1 interference-free contour increased significantly to 73 percent of the total population compared to only 50 percent for 98.7 FM. This represents approximately 700,000 more potential listeners in the GTA east.

12442   The number of households able to receive G98.7's programming increased to 1.2 million from 1 million. This represents a 38 percent increase in the ability to reach the targeted audience and businesses in the eastern part of the GTA.

12443   88.1 FM provides interference-free coverage to all of Scarborough, and, for the first time, improved coverage in the areas, Pickering, Ajax, Whitby, and Oshawa.

12444   The fact that 22 applicants are vying for 88.1 FM underscores the value of this frequency.

12445   The economic challenges of the signal are great. The limitations of the frequency and the severity of its impact on our initial financial projections were not realized until we began broadcasting. Since that time some national advertisers and many local advertisers from the affected areas, have been reluctant to advertise on our station because of the limitations of our signal reach to the east.

12446   MR. GORDON: The suggestion that G98.7 is not the only mainstream commercial radio voice for the GTA's Black and Caribbean population because of the presence of FLOW 93.5 in the marketplace is simply false.

12447   Yesterday, we quantified the size, scope and ethnic composition of our core audience, which, contrary to what many believe, is not homogenous. As the GTA's third-largest ethnic minority group, the Black and Caribbean population is indeed this market's largest underserved audience and the public interest would best be served by finally affording this audience a clear third adjacent frequency to fulfil its programming needs.

12448   In conclusion, we were licensed to primarily serve a core target demographic of Black and Caribbean people in the GTA. The co-channel interference that we currently received from CBCP, Peterborough's CBC station in the GTA, has prevented us from achieving this to date.

12449   We have been pleasantly surprised, however, that hundreds of thousands of Torontonians of all backgrounds have also embraced and have been enjoying our World Beat brand of music and spoken word programming. Those in the eastern section of Toronto deserve to hear the programming we offer without interference.

12450   I wish to make this unequivocally clear. If the 88.1 FM frequency was available at the time of our application, it would have been our only choice to apply for. 88.1 FM traditionally served the Black and Caribbean population for over 40 years and we strongly believe that approving our technical amendment application would be the best use of the 88.1 frequency.

12451   While we currently call ourselves a Toronto radio station, there is a significant portion of our audience that cannot access our signal without the heart of -- within, I'm sorry -- the heart of the 416 area code.

12452   We look forward to the day that we can truly call ourselves a Toronto radio station serving not only those in the west but all Torontonians.

12453   Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Commissioners.

12454   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

12455   Any questions; clarifications?

12456   Thank you very much for your appearance here today.

12457   MR. GORDON: Thank you.

12458   THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Chairman, let's go on.

12459   THE SECRETARY: Thank you very much.

12460   I will now call la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto.

--- Pause

12461   LE PRÉSIDENT : Est-ce qu'il y a des documents?

12462   LA SECRÉTAIRE : Non, Monsieur le Président.

12463   LE PRÉSIDENT : O.K. Merci.

12464   LA SECRÉTAIRE : Alors, je vous demanderais, s'il vous plaît, de vous re-présenter aux fins du dossier.

12465   MME MORI : D'accord.

12466   LA SECRÉTAIRE : Vous disposez de 10 minutes.

REPLY

12467   MME MORI : Monsieur le Président et membres du Conseil, bonjour. Je me re-présente, Tonia Mori, à la direction générale, depuis novembre 2006, de la Coopérative radiophonique de Toronto, qui gère la radio communautaire francophone.

12468   Je suis aujourd'hui accompagnée de madame Christine Kouremenos, qui est administratrice au sein du conseil d'administration de la Coopérative depuis maintenant quatre ans.

12469   En fait, elle est l'exemple parfait de la Torontoise francophile qui, en 2007, nous a contactés pour connaître le titre d'une chanson que nous venions de diffuser sur nos ondes.

12470   Elle voulait aussi, du même coup, savoir à quel endroit elle pourrait rencontrer d'autres francophones et d'autres francophiles et aussi savoir comment participer à des activités culturelles en français à Toronto.

12471   MME KOUREMENOS : Dans le cadre de cette dernière intervention, nous aimerions d'abord remercier le Conseil d'avoir bien accueilli notre demande.

12472   Ensuite, nous aimerions commenter plusieurs énoncés faits par Radio-Canada lors de leur présentation.

12473   Enfin, nous aimerions réitérer que CHOQ FM est la meilleure option afin de desservir le marché canadien. Nous sommes un élément incontournable à la Loi sur la diversité du spectre radiophonique canadien et une réponse efficace à la Loi sur les langues officielles.

12474   Nous avons la pire fréquence de Toronto, the bottom of the barrel, tel que l'a précisé notre ingénieur M. Jim Molton. Il n'existe donc aucune autre solution pour rejoindre notre auditoire cible sur la bande hertzienne. Même le cannibalisme ou l'auto-interférence ne sont pas des options envisageables pour nous.

12475   MME MORI : Voici quelques précisions sur les émissions radiophoniques d'information locale qui sont disponibles en français à Toronto.

12476   Nous tenons à exprimer notre surprise quant à plusieurs énoncés présentés hier par Radio-Canada, des énoncés qui nous paraissent erronés.

12477   Leur recherche indique qu'ils seraient les seuls à diffuser une émission matinale d'information locale de langue française, et ceci est faux.

12478   MME KOUREMENOS : CHOQ FM est une source d'information locale importante. Depuis le début de notre arrivée dans le marché de Toronto, notre grille de programmation inclut deux émissions quotidiennes d'information, produites localement, soit « CHOQ matinal » de 6 h à 9 h et « Pare-Choq », l'émission du retour à la maison, diffusée de 15 h à 18 h.

12479   Ces deux émissions d'information quotidiennes traitent des dossiers d'actualité locale, présentent des bulletins d'information régionale, nationale, et traitent de l'information internationale. Les revues de presse ainsi que les chroniques, les entrevues, les bulletins sportifs et l'agenda culturel de Toronto sont également présents dans ces émissions, et tout est produit localement.

12480   Ainsi, CHOQ-FM est une source importante d'information locale et évidemment, on sera là si des situations d'urgence se présentent afin d'informer et soutenir en français notre communauté.

12481   MME MORI : En ce sens, nous aimerions préciser qu'en nous octroyant le 88,1, CHOQ-FM sera en mesure de mettre en place une salle de presse et ainsi assurer une meilleure couverture de l'actualité locale et municipale.

12482   Nous tenons à préciser aux membres du Conseil que cette initiative existe déjà dans plusieurs radios communautaires.

12483   Nous nous inspirons du modèle de salle de presse développé par la radio communautaire CIBL, une source d'information connue et reconnue à Montréal.

12484   CIBL et CHOQ-FM sont deux radios urbaines qui ont un environnement semblable.

12485   Nous avons conclu en analysant leur fonctionnement qui met à contribution de nombreux stagiaires, soit des étudiants en communication ou en journalisme, que leur modèle de salle de nouvelles est réalisable à Toronto.

12486   Ce partenaire nous a déjà offert de fournir la formation et la documentation nécessaire afin de faciliter la mise en place d'une telle salle de presse à Toronto à CHOQ-FM.

12487   Ce type de projet est aussi exactement le type d'initiative que plusieurs bailleurs de fonds dont le fonds des radios communautaires du Canada seraient enchantés de financer la mise en oeuvre.

12488   Pour notre part, nous recruterons nos stagiaires, soit des étudiants qui parlent le français dans différentes institutions collégiales et universitaires comme Ryerson, Glendon, la Cité Collégiale et le Collège Boréal.

12489   Rappelons également que 90 pour cent, c'est-à-dire114 heures de notre programmation est produit localement, alors que Radio-Canada ne diffuse à Toronto que 22 pour cent, c'est-à-dire 27.5.

12490   Donc, 78 pour cent de la programmation de la première chaîne provient du réseau national.

12491   Toronto agit ici plutôt comme un satellite de la société d'État.

12492   De plus, les compressions annoncées par Radio-Canada ne semblent pas non plus annoncer des investissements supplémentaires dans la programmation locale, comme CHOQ-FM sera en mesure de faire si on obtenait le 88,1.

12493   En ce sens, la programmation de CHOQ-FM revêt d'une dimension très importante pour la communauté francophone de Toronto.

12494   La société d'État remplir un rôle qui est important et national pour les Canadiens et Canadiennes.

12495   Mais partout dans le pays, les communautés locales et principalement les communautés francophones, elles ont préféré se doter de radios communautaires locales dynamiques pour remplir leurs besoins d'émancipation, de reconnaissance et d'information locale.

12496   MME KOUREMENOS : Il est important de souligner que pour nous, impliqués de servir la diversité est beaucoup plus qu'une question d'ajouter des «accents différents» comme le mentionnait monsieur Quenneville, le directeur des services français de l'Ontario, de Radio-Canada.

12497   Pour nous, impliquer la diversité est une question d'encrage au quotidien, de participation active et de reconnaissance mutuelle.

12498   Le besoin d'une radio à leur image plutôt que des porte-paroles ayant le bon accent.

12499   MME MORI : Par ailleurs nous aimerions profiter de cette occasion pour préciser que nos stratégies de développement des revenus publicitaires reposent sur notre expertise que nous avons développée au courant des six dernières années.

12500   Il repose aussi sur des comparaisons de différents marchés.

12501   De plus, vous conviendrez avec moi qu'il est plus facile de multiplier et d'augmenter des revenus alors qu'ils sont pratiquement inexistants, que d'en trouver des nouveaux dans un marché qui est déjà mature.

12502   De plus, l'ajout de nouvelles ressources humaines, soit trois représentants des ventes et d'une fréquence capable de rejoindre notre auditoire nous permettrait d'atteindre les revenus qui ont été présentés dans notre demande.

12503   L'atteinte de nos projections budgétaires sont réalistes dans un marché comme Toronto, et ne peuvent être comparés à la réalité des autres radios communautaires de façon générale.

12504   Nous avons déjà été en mesure d'atteindre ces résultats. C'est notamment ce que nous avons fait en 2008. Donc, il s'agit d'objectifs atteignables.

12505   MME KOUREMENOS : Enfin, nous désirons réitérer que selon Statistiques Canada 2006, 425000 personnes parlent le français dans le Grand Toronto.

12506   De ce chiffre, toujours selon Statistiques Canada 2006, plus de 65000 sont de langue maternelle.

12507   Selon une étude réalisée par la Fondation Trillium en 2010, ce serait plutôt 75000 personnes.

12508   CHOQ-FM, étant donné la nature de sa programmation, rejoint et vise concrètement les personnes qui parlent le français, qu'ils soient de langue maternelle ou non.

12509   En six ans d'expérience, nous pouvons confirmer que les francophiles sont très intéressés par la programmation musicale et les émissions de la radio francophone communautaire de Toronto.

12510   Tout comme moi, ils interagissent directement avec CHOQ-FM.

12511   De plus, tel que présenté hier, le français gagne en popularité et plusieurs indicateurs le prouvent.

12512   Par exemple, il y a une demande croissante, tant pour les écoles francophones que d'immersion.

12513   Nous confirmons que près de 200 écoles francophones et d'immersion existent dans le Grand Toronto.

12514   Enfin, CHOQ-FM travaille en collaboration avec différentes associations francophiles qui ont la mission de faire la promotion du français, telle que l'association «Parents for French» et «Français pour l'avenir».

12515   MME MORI : En conclusion, nous maintenons que nous sommes vraiment la réponse à la question qui consiste à savoir qui fera la meilleure utilisation de la dernière fréquence disponible à Toronto.

12516   Nous sommes convaincus que CHOQ-FM est le bon choix, et pour les différentes raisons suivantes:

12517   - le 88,1 permettrait d'assurer la survie et la croissance de CHOQ-FM, soit la seule radio communautaire francophone à Toronto. Cela permettrait au Conseil de favoriser l'application de la Loi sur les langues officielles et de contribuer à son implication;

12518   - le 88,1 permettrait d'accroître la qualité et la quantité de notre programmation locale et de mieux exposer les artistes émergents francophones canadiens. Nous avons 65 pour cent de contenu canadien, minimum;

12519   - le 88,1 permet d'amener de nouvelles personnes à écouter la radio. Ce sont des Francophones unilingues, des nouveaux arrivants, des jeunes et également des francophiles. Le Conseil s'assurera d'une continuité naturelle de l'utilisation non commerciale de cette fréquence;

12520   - nous octroyer le 88,1 permettrait d'assurer un apport important et unique à la diversité du spectre radiophonique à Toronto. Vous aurez l'assurance que cette fréquence ne sera jamais vendue ni utilisée comme une simple réémettrice;

12521   - en nous octroyant le 88,1, le Conseil démontre une belle reconnaissance en cette belle année internationale de la coopérative.

12522   - en nous accordant le 88,1, nous débuterons les travaux dès le lendemain de votre décision. Comme nous l'avons mentionné, nous avons le financement et l'équipe de professionnels pour réaliser rapidement les travaux.

12523   En conclusion, les résultats que nous avons atteints par le passé prouvent que nous possédons vraiment l'expérience, l'expertise, la passion.

12524   Nous avons l'audace, les idées et la détermination pour vraiment maximiser l'utilisation et l'exploitation de la fréquence88,1.

12525   Chers membres du Conseil, nous sommes à une croisée des chemins. Nous vous remercions pour votre attention.

12526   LE PRÉSIDENT: Merci bien. Est-ce qu'il y a des questions? Commissionnaire Poirier?

12527   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Deux questions.

12528   J'aimerais que vous répétiez les chiffres que vous avez dits concernant les Francophones. Je les ai mal entendus. C'est vraiment une question, inaudible pour moi.

12529   MME KOUREMENOS : Pardon. Donc, selon Statistiques Canada 2006, 425000 personnes parlent français.

12530   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Quatre cent vingt-cinq. C'est ce que vous dites.

12531   MME KOUREMENOS : Quatre cent vingt-cinq mille.

12532   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : O.K. Qui parlent français. Et vous dites 65000...

12533   MME KOUREMENOS : Plus de 65000 sont de langue maternelle.

12534   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Parfait. On vérifiera bien sûr tous ces chiffres-là.

12535   MME KOUREMENOS : Bien sûr.

12536   Puis j'avais mentionné que Trillium reviennent eux aussi. Et pour eux, c'était plutôt 75000.

12537   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Et la deuxième chose. Vous nous avez lancé l'idée que, je sais pas si c'était dans votre soumission de base, qu'en supposant, par exemple, que Ryerson n'obtienne pas la licence - et c'est moi qui extrapole - vous seriez à même d'établir une sorte de lien avec l'Université pour utiliser les journalistes en formation pour qu'ils viennent sur vos ondes vivre l'expérience du journalisme. Est-ce que j'ai bien compris?

12538   MME MORI : Vous avez très bien compris. Puis nous avons déjà effectué des démarches par le passé.

12539   La difficulté pour nous d'aboutir, c'était qu'on manquait de personnel à l'interne. Donc, il y a eu une réponse qui était positive. On fait la même chose pour le collège Glendon, la Cité Collégiale qui est arrivée maintenant à Toronto, la même chose avec le Collège Boréal.

12540   Donc, c'est vraiment pour nous naturel d'aller dans ce bassin-là qu'il y a beaucoup de personnes qui parlent le français.

12541   Donc ça, c'est indéniable. Et beaucoup sont aux études et on veut qu'ils contribuent à notre programmation, absolument.

12542   CONSEILLÈRE POIRIER : Merci Mesdames. J'ai terminé, Monsieur le Président.

12543   LE PRÉSIDENT: Merci beaucoup.

12544   Est-ce qu'il y a d'autres questions? Non?

12545   Merci beaucoup.

12546   MME MORI : Merci à vous.

12547   THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Chairman, let's go on.

12548   THE SECRETARY: Merci. It's the second time you call me Madam Chairman today.

--- Laughter

12549   THE CHAIRMAN: Madam Secretary.

12550   THE SECRETARY: Next presenter, MZ Media Inc.

--- Pause

12551   THE CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready?

12552   THE SECRETARY: Please introduce yourselves for the record. You have 10 minutes.

REPLY

12553   MS LAFONTAINE: Merci.

12554   For the record, I am Monique Lafontaine, General Counsel and VP of MZ Media and with me is Mark Lewis, external counsel to MZ Media Inc.

12555   Before we begin, on a point of order I want to clear the record relating to something that Mr. Torres said this morning. Mr. Torres claimed that we did not get technical acceptance for our application and should not have been heard. This is not correct. We received a technical acceptance notification from Angela Kelly of Industry Canada 23 days prior to the start of the public hearing. We will refile this document with the Commission, should you wish.

12556   THE CHAIRPERSON: It's not required. Thank you.

12557   MS LAFONTAINE: Thank you.

12558   Now to respond to the statements made by the applicants, Rock 95. They made a number of claims regarding the technical solution to our problem, but offered nothing based in reality or fact. That they claim that we could co-site with CBC and provide a directional array outside of Hornsby and outside of Toronto is totally unfounded.

12559   They have made no technical assessments, and we have -- as we have relative to alternative siting outside of the GTA. These allegations are typical of an applicant who does not know this market. If only it were as simple as they assert.

12560   Worldband, who has no broadcast experience in this market, made similar claims. We responded with a detailed reply on April 12, 2012, which was filed with the Commission.

12561   MR. LEWIS: Beside Worldband, there have been others who have suggested that there are other AM solutions. For the record, we are filing three key documents which should end speculation for once and for all.

12562   They are: (1) the 2001 staff report of the City of Toronto regarding location of AM services on Toronto island and the Toronto portlands; (2) the November 1999 staff report authored by Dr. Sheela Basrur, Medical Officer of Health for the City of Toronto, that resulted in the adoption of radio frequency restrictions that far exceed those imposed by Industry Canada, and (3) the amended telecommunications protocol of the City of Toronto dated January 28th, 2009.

12563   These documents, read together, clearly articulate the City of Toronto's regulatory powers over AM and other transmission facilities. They state and confirm that a reasonably powered AM station cannot be sited within the Municipality of Toronto.

12564   We trust this will end speculation and misleading claims made by others.

12565   With regard to Radio Canada, they presented what purported to be a legal argument based on the provisions of the Broadcasting Act. The problem is, they badly misinterpreted the relevant sections of the Act.

12566   They claim that licensing CJVC AM 860 for a nested FM transmitter should be paramount over any other private or non-commercial broadcasting applicant by virtue of Section 3(1)(n) of the Broadcasting Act.

12567   What the CBC was arguing is that subsection (n) of the Act trumps all other applicants in this proceeding and that the programming of Radio Canada must be available on 88.1 regardless of the merits of any other application before you.

12568   With respect, that's not even remotely what Section 3(1)(n) says. The section reads as follows:

"Where any conflict arises between the objectives of the corporation set out in paragraphs (l) and (m) and the interests of any other broadcasting undertaking of the Canadian broadcasting system, it shall be resolved in the public interest and, where the public interest would be equally served by resolving the conflict in favour of either, it shall be resolved in favour of the objectives set out in paragraphs (l) and (m)."

12569   The problem is, paragraphs 3(1)(l) and 3(1)(m) set out objectives that have nothing to do with the allocation of a frequency which becomes available or the use of a nested FM transmitter.

12570   We urge the Commission to read those sections of the Act carefully. Were you to accept that subsection 3(1)(l) or (m) were triggered in this proceeding, there is nothing in 3(1)(n) that elevates the corporation over other applicants all of the time. And even if the CBC's legal argument were founded on a proper legal interpretation of sub-section 3(1)(n), and we suggest it's not, Parliament determined that the Commission, and not the CBC, has a significant role to play.

12571   Again, 3(1)(n) states:

"...where the public interest would be equally served by resolving the conflict in favour of either, it shall be resolved in favour of the objectives set out in paragraphs (l) and (m)."

12572   Parliament's critical words here are "the public interest would be equally served".

12573   The programming of La Première Chaîne is available over the air, on the internet, and is available to mobile devices. The station, however, attracts very few listeners, even outside of where there is interference.

12574   According to -- awarding a licence to Radio Canada, which only has 22,000 weekly listeners in the Toronto CMA where there is a broadcast applicant who has over 340,000 listeners in the CMA, that is, MZ Media, is not a case where the public interest would be equally served in favour of either applicant.

12575   Parliament never intended subsection 3(1)(n) to be used as a tiebreaker to decide controversial licensing issues only to the benefit of Radio Canada.

12576   We conclude with a thought that the real under-served group is the 65 plus cohort. We've provided with our reply this afternoon a table compiled from the BBM data that indicates CJBC 860 only attracts 1,000 listeners a week 65 plus in the Toronto CMA and only 2,000 listeners 65 plus in other parts of Ontario served by the 860 transmitter.

12577   CFZM has more than 340,000 weekly listeners 65 plus in 88.1's .5 millivolt contour.

12578   MS LAFONTAINE: In conclusion, sometimes in the pressure of the moment in the effort to answer tangential questions, the most important thing does not get said.

12579   Concerns relating to aging will increasingly dominate public policy debate in Canada for the next 20 years. It will be a mistake of tragic proportions of the CRTC by inaction in this moment when a simple solution is readily at hand, allowed the one and only Broadcast Voice of the New Old to grow dim and perhaps even fade away.

12580   We therefore urge you to award 88.1 to Toronto's extensive and growing 65 plus demographic and AM 740 zoomer radio.

12581   We appreciate the opportunity to provide these reply comments.

12582   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

12583   Are there any questions? No.

12584   Thank you very much for your appearance.

12585   MS LAFONTAINE: Thank you.

12586   THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary?

12587   THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

12588   I will now invite Dufferin Communications Inc.

--- Pause

12589   THE SECRETARY: So we're ready to hear your reply. Please reintroduce yourselves for the record. You have 10 minutes.

REPLY

12590   MS LAURIGNANO: Thank you, Madam Secretary.

12591   My name is Carmel Laurignano. I am the Vice-President of Evanov Communications Inc., which is a parent company for Dufferin Communications.

12592   To my left is Andre Wiley of Blakes LLP. To my right, immediate right, is Chad Skinner, our in-house general counsel, and to his right is Jim Moltner, I think the most familiar face at this hearing, who is also our consulting broadcast engineering.

12593   We thank you for the opportunity and -- to be with you again and to have this opportunity to address you in our reply.

12594   I would like to thank the over 3,200 intervenors who, with this application, have demonstrated their support, including the 50 advertiser community organization, cultural institutions and special cultural and community groups who lent their support for our application.

12595   We will not use this time allotted us to demonstrate that PROUD FM is experiencing technical problems. The extent to which broadcasting on 103.9 FM at 50, or even 128 ERP watts is inadequate to provide radio service to an unserved community in Toronto has been amply demonstrated. We are, in fact, grateful to MZ Media for having done so so effectively and persuasively yesterday in speaking about the challenges they have with their 50,000 watts.

12596   We, on the other hand, would never be at more than 128.

12597   As for Mr. Bingly's remarks with regard to maintaining our service as an LGBT service, we gave our commitment to you and to the LGBT community that we have no plans to compete with our own other Toronto CMA signals by changing format.

12598   What we intend to use this time for is, first, to expand on why a solution for PROUD FM's technical problems which involves the further impairment of CIDC FM is unfair from a regulatory perspective, fiscally suicidal for the Evanov Radio Group and, moreover, technically impossible.

12599   Secondly, in light of Durham Radio's proposal for the use of second adjacencies, we will expand on the value of our offer for the use of 103.9 FM by another broadcaster on the technical parameters currently used by PROUD FM, or those approved by the Commission in Decision 2010-357.

12600   In the words of Intercity Broadcasting Network Inc. and Aron Davis Bessarion, Dufferin should simply allow CIRR-FM to increase its broadcasting power as a second adjacent station.

12601   Industry Canada protects the use of the FM frequencies it assigns to broadcasters based on certain exact technical parameters that you are well aware of. The rules involve the right of a broadcaster not to accept the interference on the mother station which would result from the use of the second adjacency. This is true for our CIDC FM frequency, 103.5, as much as it is for any other frequency used by any other broadcaster.

12602   Our engineer has affirmed that increasing the power used to broadcast on the second adjacency of CIDC-FM, that is, on 103.9, cannot be accomplished beyond the 128 ERP watts approved by the Commission without significantly impairing the coverage of CIDC FM in addition to interfering with other frequencies.

12603   It has been made clear by Mr. Moltner that it is not technically possible to increase the size of the approved coverage of 103.9 without causing undue interference to CIDC FM and other incumbent broadcasters. As he clearly said, the circle cannot be enlarged -- or much larger.

12604   Based on the limitations imposed because of the placement of other incumbent broadcasters, we are boxed in to the current signal footprint of CIRR FM. We cannot expand to the east or the west because of the protections established for other broadcasters. The only theoretical option available is to expand the signal to the north.

12605   Unfortunately, such a move would effectively decimate the coverage of CIDC FM. This would be financially disastrous for CIDC FM and the gains incurred by CIRR FM would be minimal, at best.

12606   Further, creating a one directional expansion would not offer our service to the Gaybourhoods spread throughout the downtown core and would leave the majority of the LGBT community unserved.

12607   The Commission has acknowledged the societal value of serving the LGBT community, a recognized unserved community in Toronto, but it has never suggested that it should be done at the expense of another of one of Evanov's frequencies. The integrity of CIDC FM is guaranteed by Industry Canada. It is essential to the financial integrity of the Evanov Radio Group. It is also essential to the listeners of CIDC FM.

12608   The Commission is aware of the fact that CIDC FM is the flagship station of Evanov fiscally. It is a driver of the company. It has been largely responsible for our ability to support PROUD FM and other undertakings to date despite the fact that CIDC's revenues have declined since the implementation of PROUD FM. Impairing CIDC FM further would be suicidal.

12609   In addition, the loyal listeners of CIDC FM are entitled to count on its licensee not to deprive them voluntarily of the signal they have come to rely on.

12610   MR. SKINNER: The co-location of the two frequencies has been raised. This is something which has been considered by the company in attempting to solve the technical problems faced by PROUD FM.

12611   The reason this cannot work is relatively simple and is based on the fact that the strongest coverage area of any station is in the physical area directly around the transmitting tower. It is that area which makes up the three mV coverage area of any station. Recognizing this, if we chose to move CIRR FM to the current CIDC tower location, some 50 kilometres from downtown Toronto, the three mV coverage area would be near that tower in Orangeville.

12612   This distance, along with the protection requirements of two adjacent stations, would never allow the three mV contour of PROUD FM anywhere near the intended audience. Further, we would still be limited to the east and the west of the current coverage area due to protections set up for other broadcasters.

12613   Based on the distance from the Gay Village to the current CIDC transmitter, we would, at best, only be reaching the downtown core with our weak 0.5 mV coverage area, if that. And based on that coverage, we would effectively lose downtown coverage of PROUD FM.

12614   In considering co-location of the frequencies in downtown Toronto, we were able to recognize that such a move would violate the conditions of the CIDC licence. If we moved the CIDC transmitter to be situated with CIRR FM, our three mV coverage area would be nowhere near our licensed area of Orangeville, as required by licence for that station, and would mean we had effectively abandoned that market.

12615   Contrary to interveners, solving this problem is not just a question of negotiating a transmitter lease to implement Decision 2010-357 at 128 ERP watts.

12616   We have already indicated to the Commission that we would be here today regardless of whether or not we had been able to implement the prior amendment. We offer that assurance even after having invested a substantial sum in trying to implement the Commission's amendment approval. This is because our engineer has demonstrated that the limited coverage area of 103.9 can never be significantly enlarged to allow us to reach the market we are licensed to serve.

12617   MS LAURIGNANO: All that being said, any broadcaster who agrees to use its own adjacency for its own purposes, with the approval of the Commission and Industry Canada, can. That is how we got to broadcast on 103.9 when no other frequencies were available in Toronto to launch PROUD FM.

12618   The underlying assumption is that no broadcaster will impair its own frequency and business plan but, rather, will act in its own self interest in using its own second adjacency.

12619   However, that same broadcaster can offer the use of its adjacent frequency and agree to its use with Commission and Industry Canada approval, but of course on reasonable terms.

12620   That is what we did at page 8 and 9 of our Supplementary Brief and in our oral presentation. We put it on the record that we were willing to offer 103.9 for use by an alternate broadcaster at our current parameters or those approved in Decision 2010-357.

12621   In our Supplementary Brief, we specify that our offer was for a community or not-for-profit station for the reasons expressed. We have since found out from our engineer that this offer could also provide a nesting solution or opportunity for commercial broadcasters and we have, therefore, extended our offer for that purpose.

12622   It would avoid the under-utilization of 88.1, the last FM frequency in Toronto. It would allow PROUD, which can't get out of the downtown core, out and allow a broadcaster who can't get in, in.

12623   It would not be the first time the Commission has taken this route to allow an under-served community to be served. In Decision 2009-481, the Commission required Astral to accept certain technical parameters on the second adjacency on one of its existing frequencies, in this case CIMF FM 94.9 in Ottawa, by Radio de la Communauté Francophone d'Ottawa as a quid pro quo for the use of a newly approved frequency, 99.7, by Astral. In case of a dispute on unreasonableness, the Commission required that the matter be referred to it for resolution.

12624   It is, of course, obvious that this offer is dependent on PROUD FM vacating 103.9 because its use of an alternate frequency, in this case 88.1, has been approved.

12625   MR. SKINNER: The Commission has acknowledged that providing radio service to the LGBT community of Toronto is in the public interest. That requires the use of a workable frequency.

12626   This frequency, 88.1, would allow us to finally serve the largest LGBT cultural centre in Canada, and one of the largest in the world. Toronto is an important epicenter for LGBT culture and is demonstrating this by hosting World Pride in 2014.

12627   We look forward, with your approval, to showcasing PRIDE FM and Canadian culture to the world at that time.

12628   Commissioners, we have been training enthusiastically and barefoot for six years. Our feet are swollen and sore. We implore you to give us a good pair of shoes.

12629   Thank you very much for your time.

12630   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

12631   Are there any questions from the Panel?

12632   Thank you very much for your appearance in this phase.

12633   MS LAURIGNANO: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

12634   I would just lastly like to thank you, the Vice-Chair and Commissioners and the awesome staff, who have made our job very easy during this particular marathon.

12635   So thank you very much, and good luck with your deliberations.

12636   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

12637   THE SECRETARY: Thank you very much.

12638   It is now time for Radio Ryerson. Please come forward.

--- Pause

12639   COMMISSIONER PENTEFOUNTAS: A lot of trees fought the good battle and lost for this hearing. A lot of paperwork coming here.

12640   THE SECRETARY: When you're ready, please reintroduce yourselves for the record. You have 10 minutes.

REPLY

12641   MS HARRISON: Thank you.

12642   Good afternoon. Once again, for the record, my name is Jacky Tuinstra Harrison. I'm the President of Radio Ryerson. And with me today is Grant Buchanan, counsel to Radio Ryerson Incorporated.

12643   Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, on behalf of Ryerson University, its staff and students as well as all of the potential listeners to Radio Ryerson, we thank you for this opportunity to present our final reply.

12644   First we thank those who have helped us along the way, thousands of students who came out to support us, university administrators and a wealth of community groups who we reached out to and said we want genuine community involvement here from diverse groups who are on the ground, mot just friends of friends who show up at a meeting or perhaps elect each other.

12645   We heard the panel that spoke earlier today about a radio station that reflects Toronto's diversity. As you know, that is very important to us.

12646   Radio Ryerson wants to reflect it in its on-air personnel and in its programming. The station even decided to insist on measuring its diversity and meeting targets that, while slightly lower than the actual diversity that exists in the Ryerson student body at about 82 percent of equity groups, this is higher than any commercial radio stations.

12647   We think there has also been a bit of confusion on certain points that were raised, and we'd like to address that briefly.

12648   First on the mix of music and spoken word that was raised on Monday, and I think an applicant today suggested that this should be considered a music station.

12649   Commissioners, our application has committed to a minimum of 20 percent spoken word content, all of which is local. When you look at our program grid, you will see that, in practice, we will hit that with the local news alone.

12650   We have slotted 47 hours of spoken word per week, which is 38 percent of our total hours. And that is higher than a lot of other campus community stations.

12651   Second, on who we are. There was a bit of confusion in the Torres OBCI applicant, who suggested that you shouldn't license the same applicant twice because contrition isn't enough.

12652   To be clear, this isn't the same applicant. Just before lunch, you heard the CKLN intervenors, Messrs. Besharat and Duffel, repeat the same accusation that they made in their intervention and that we have already replied to. But to be clear, there are only two people involved in Radio Ryerson who were ever involved in CKLN, and one of them is me.

12653   In March 2011, long after the CKLN intervenors' lawsuits against CKLN and after the CKLN's licence had been revoked by the CRTC, I did apply to a job that was advertised for a station manager for CKLN. I later learned that I was one of 60 applicants, and I applied because of my passion and background in community radio and journalism. And this application is not about me.

12654   The other person who filled the volunteer Board position during our start-up term -- and we were just getting started. None of us had been involved with CKLN, so we needed someone who knew enough about what had happened there and how community radio works on the campus to transmit that knowledge to us.

12655   If we didn't know what went wrong, we couldn't have fixed it. We talked very seriously with the person who was appointed for that start-up term, who was an articling student with the Ontario Ministry of Justice, and we agreed that she fit the bill for that limited period.

12656   We developed a volunteer representation policy, and we needed time for these volunteers to work up their hours to qualify for election to the Board. We also have a volunteer programmer agreement and complaints policy which is nearly in its final form and that precludes activities such as compensation for programming as well as outlining enforcement and termination provisions for programmers and programs.

12657   MR. BUCHANAN: We have heard some interveners suggest that youth don't listen to the radio, need not listen to the radio and maybe can go on the Internet if they don't want to be part of the radio system. We don't believe that.

12658   In my view, for the 1991 Broadcasting Act to have designated community media as one of the three elements of the Canadian broadcasting system means a great deal.

12659   We believe your 2010 Campus and Community Radio Policy 2010-499 responds to that requirement and is well thought out. It describes a model for the funding and governance of campus community stations within the sector.

12660   You recognized that these stations are funded by student levies in this country, but you also created the Community Radio Fund of Canada to supplement them.

12661   You also said that Boards of Directors must include balanced representation from the student body, the associated college or university, station volunteers and the community at large. We spent a lot of time figuring out how to do that.

12662   We also spent a lot of time reworking and negotiating the agreements that the station has in order to eliminate the possibility of loopholes that were exploited the last time from being there.

12663   What we came up with is not typical of campus community radio stations. It is typical of other types of volunteer-run organizations that have to combine ongoing stability with strong volunteerism.

12664   We put it together with the expertise of some of my partners who do non-profit governance work and with the help of insights from the non-profit management program at Ryerson University. To call it identical to what CKLN had is plain wrong. Those who are on the ground at Radio Ryerson know that.

12665   MS HARRISON: Members of the Commission, in response to remarks about our student and community roles, I would like to say as follows.

12666   During my short involvement thus far with this station, as well as my involvement with other stations such as CKCU in Ottawa, CHRY and CKLN before that, I have been very impressed by the goodwill and willingness of so many people working to try and bring diverse voices and new diverse emerging Canadian music to air.

12667   Ryerson is right now one of Canada's only major universities not to incubate a campus community radio station and it is one of Canada's leading broadcasting and journalism schools. We certainly don't think we have the inside track on this licence, but we believe we have made a compelling case to you and we were starting from a pretty low place.

12668   Students initially were not enthusiastic, nor was the administration, but the interest grew very quickly. Having gotten 10 percent of students to come out and vote, 84 percent of them saying yes was remarkable for a campus with big commuter adult and part-time segments and it compares well to what happens at other campuses without those challenges. In fact, several referendums at Ryerson have not met the 10 percent quorum.

12669   Community organizations that have their own energy and their own member bases have also been willing to get involved in our programming and our governance if we are privileged enough to make it to the airwaves.

12670   MR. BUCHANAN: What some of the interveners in this hearing forget is that there hasn't been a campus community station licensed yet under your new policy.

12671   We believe we have adopted it in a responsible and appropriate manner that highlights the diversity of new local talent and neighbourhood news that Radio Ryerson's student investors expect: like the new musical selections we play from diverse emerging Canadian artists at peak times, like our local news commitments, like the diversity that our staff will represent.

12672   If you feel that Radio Ryerson's campus community application deserves to be licensed but you think the details of how we implemented your new policy are different from what you intended, we would remind you of the following.

12673   We can't change our application, but you can. The Commission can issue a licence to Radio Ryerson imposing whatever conditions it feels appropriate. This is true regardless of whether Radio Ryerson asked for those conditions or not.

12674   MS HARRISON: Given the importance of the community element in the broadcasting system, given the platform that this station will provide to a broad diversity of emerging artists that correspond and respond to the changing tastes of the people of Toronto, and given the wealth of content, volunteers, resources and training that the Ryerson campus has to offer to the city, we invite you to approve our application.

12675   We would be pleased to respond to any questions.

12676   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

12677   Are there any questions from the panel? No?

12678   Commissioner Patrone...?

12679   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: Thank you.

12680   Thank you for providing a little more clarity around the number who voted, the percentage of those who said yes. So 84 percent of 10 percent. So roughly 92 percent either didn't vote or voted against; is that correct?

12681   MS HARRISON: And that would be true of the other referendums in general elections as well.

12682   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: That's my question, thank you.

12683   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. That completes this phase for Ryerson. Thank you very much for appearing.

12684   Madam Secretary...?

12685   THE SECRETARY: Thank you very much.

12686   I will now call upon 8041393 Canada Inc.

--- Pause

REPLY

12687   MR. MATHIEU: Good afternoon. My name is Michel Mathieu, I am a Broadcast Consultant.

12688   To my right is Mr. Kumar Nadarajah. He is the applicant and he will address you after the short point form I have done here to briefly answer the intervention and we will allude to the written answers that we have sent to the interveners and to the Commission.

12689   To start with, Canadian Multicultural Radio, CJSA, their concern about the impact of the new South Asian service of the GTA. Of course, with all the applications for 88.1 we can understand that.

12690   We would like to remind the Commission that CJSA is licensed to Toronto and we understand the concerns of CJSA that they have in regard to the 88.1 frequency as it will affect directly their market.

12691   However, our service, our proposed service, is limited to local Markham and, as explained in our written answers, the CJSA marketing signal and our proposed marketing signals do not overlap. There is a gap of 8 kilometres between our proposed 15mV daytime contour and CJSA's 3mV contour, which is what the Commission recognizes as a marketing area. Furthermore, between our proposed 5mV contour and CJSA's 3mV contour there is a 4-kilometre gap.

12692   As for the fact that the intervener CJSA is drawing a significant portion of its Tamil and South Asian revenues from Markham advertisers, our comments are as follows.

12693   Although CJSA does not cover Markham with a marketing signal of 3mV, they can still be heard somewhat in cars, but CJSA is well heard in Toronto and in between Toronto and Markham.

12694   Therefore, Markham advertisers wishing to attract Toronto clients and customers who hear CJSA between Toronto and Markham are advertising and will continue to advertise on CJSA-FM. The coverage of our station will be limited to Markham.

12695   Inversely, should a Toronto business desire to attract a Markham client, fine, they may wish to advertise with us, but they will certainly not cease to advertise on Toronto stations, including CJSA. CJSA, you will note, is a well-established radio station, as was mentioned in the Commission's decision approving another neighbouring station of ours.

12696   As for CJMR Trafalgar Broadcasting, they are also concerned about a new South Asian ethnic radio station being introduced in the GTA. This is understandable, and as for our proposal we detail in our written answers to their intervention that our marketing signals again are definitely not overlapping. As explained, our 5mV signal, the signals of the two 5mV of each station are separated by 20 kilometres.

12697   CHKT Toronto does not oppose any application but are suggesting to the Commission to protect their Chinese programming. We would like to say that this does not apply to us as we are not going to broadcast in Chinese.

12698   CINA's intervention, our answers are similar to the ones to CJMR. Our marketing signals are far apart, we are in two distinct markets, and we will have no impact whatsoever on CINA.

12699   To have a complete overview of all our answers, well, we invite the Commission to consult our March 31, 2012 answers submitted to CJMR and April 10, 2012 to CJSA as well as CINA, CHKT, Evanov, CIAO, CHIN and Media Group. These answers were also sent of course to the Commission.

12700   In closing, I would like to say that we are talking about other persons who have applied in the Markham area. You have licensed, and it went on the air recently, a neighbouring station and we are very proud that they are there but we would like to precise that they are licensed per your decision as a Scarborough Station and not as a Markham station.

12701   We would like to point out that theoretically Markham doesn't have its own station, which is what we wish to provide.

12702   People can send letters, many thousands of people can send letters. I would like to point out that we have the support of the Markham residents. On Monday or Tuesday when we appeared in front of you there were many residents of Markham that were here. I didn't count them, but they were quite numerous, and we have some today that took the time, time out of their homes, time out of their work to come here and support us.

12703   For us, that means more than a few letters, but I believe, and I strongly believe, that we have the full support of the Markham residents and area.

12704   I will let Mr. Kumar conclude and I appreciate and thank you very much.

12705   MR. KUMAR: Thank you.

12706   In conclusion, I have over 26 years of broadcasting experience. There were never any complaints against my SCMO service. Quite the contrary, if the Commission provided me with the privilege of a broadcasting licence I pledge to provide an outstanding service to my community. I thank you.

12707   MR. MATHIEU: And the last closing comment is that this is a transfer from an SCMO to an AM frequency. Honestly, I don't believe we are taking anything away from anybody.

12708   The Commission could choose to license us, license anybody else. We do not have a problem with that. We can do our own thing and be very proud of it.

12709   Thank you.

12710   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

12711   Any questions? No?

12712   Thank you very much for appearing at this phase.

12713   MR. KUMAR: Thank you, Commissioners.

12714   MR. MATHIEU: Thank you.

12715   THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary, we will move on.

12716   THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

12717   Sarabjeet S. Arora, on behalf of a not-for-profit corporation to be incorporated, will be the next presenter.

--- Pause

12718   THE SECRETARY: You may now proceed.

12719   THE CHAIRPERSON: No, we're not ready yet. We are missing a Commissioner.

12720   THE SECRETARY: Oh, I'm sorry.

--- Pause

12721   THE CHAIRPERSON: You will notice we inflict pain and suffering on our Commissioners here.

--- Laughter

--- Pause

12722   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, let's proceed.

12723   THE SECRETARY: Please go ahead, Mr. Arora.

REPLY

12724   MR. ARORA: I think the Commission should consider yoga classes here, not just for the Commissioners but also for the applicants here to help them all relax.

12725   Good evening, Mr. Chair, Commissioners, interveners and everyone else in the audience. I have one of those faces, a face with a turban and cookie monster mustache, a face that you cannot forget but a name that is quite a mouthful, you won't remember. So for the record, my name is Sarabjeet Arora and I am here on behalf of Brampton Community Radio to offer a few clarifications for the licensing of a new community radio station in Brampton.

12726   I have along with me today, on my left, is Tajinder Kaur, Head of our Volunteer Committee, and on my right is Raman Sivia, Vice-Chair on the Board of Brampton Community Radio.

12727   Brampton Community Radio is a not-for-profit community radio station and not a commercial station. We are a community station that is targeting a niche market going to the heart of things by digging deep and offering a service, one that is much needed in the languages that can be understood by the audiences living in Brampton.

12728   To compare Brampton Community Radio to any existing ethnic commercial broadcaster would be like comparing an ethnic-language documentary film to an ethnic-language feature film and believing one would negatively affect the other.

12729   We hope to work with the commercial stations and provide a complementary service. Our community-based programming will not displace or negatively harm in any way, shape or form any existing service. In fact, it will complement them, just as six other community radios in Toronto coexist with 30-odd commercial radio stations.

12730   We present for our listeners programming in Punjabi, Urdu, Hindi, Gujurati, Vietnamese, Arabic, Farsi and English, and these languages have not been randomly picked. In fact, they are the demographic representation of the City of Brampton.

12731   Even though we do not perceive ourselves to be a threat to any commercial ethnic station, we have been very prudent in trying to work with existing ethnic stations.

12732   For example, the language element of our schedule does not overlap with any of CINA 1650 AM radio's language schedule. When they broadcast in Hindi, we do not, and when they broadcast in Punjabi, we are not broadcasting the same language at the same hour.

12733   MS KAUR: In addressing the specific interventions, and specifically the one put forth by Markham application number 2011-1663-2 by 8041393 Canada Inc., we would like to point out the following:

12734   - One, the 1190 AM frequency is the best frequency that is available to address the needs of the residents of Brampton. This has been already addressed in our written response already with the Commission. If the intervener is able to propose a suitable alternative, we would be more than willing to consider it.

12735   - The Board of Directors represents the community at large. This is reflected in our application and also in our bylaws, which we have already submitted. Furthermore, not only is our Board of Directors diverse in the languages spoken but also our Board of Directors represents the skills that are required to run a successful organization. It should be noted that in our application we have left room for an addition of three more Board of Directors to be appointed upon approval of this application.

12736   - Brampton needs this service.

12737   Respected Commissioners, it has been brought forward to the Commission many times during the entire process that ethnic communities are well served. If we were to believe this even for a moment, can we by any measure of honesty and earnestness believe that almost all ethnic radios that work through a brokerage system provide any value-added service to its audiences? Do they in any way help these new Canadians integrate and assimilate with the rest of the population?

12738   MR. ARORA: In our humble opinion, all broadcasters licensed to broadcast not only have a duty to be compliant with the CRTC for the sake of regulations but also have a moral duty to use the service to the best of their abilities to inform and to educate the audiences they serve. From the social responsibility perspective, entertainment without information has no value.

12739   To draw your attention once again to our programming schedule, if you look at the schedule that we have already submitted along with our application you will see our focus on informative programming.

12740   Our Hindi program, such as "Himmat" (or Strength) talks to physically challenged people; the program "Sandhya Chaaya" (The Evening Shadows) talks to seniors about their issues and concerns; the program "Madad Moujood Hai" (Help Is Available) assists new Canadians in finding information on various subjects such as health, old age, employment opportunities, alcoholic issues, anger management.

12741   Similarly, our Arabic program, "Masa' al-Khayr," which means Good Evening, is a magazine format program which provides the Arabic-speaking audience some useful information in their first language, presenting sociocultural reports, music, radio dramas and other relevant information sessions.

12742   These are just a few examples that I bring before you. This is informative programming that is locally produced for local audiences. We choose to refer to this kind of programming as "infotainment" or entertainment with a purpose.

12743   For Brampton Community Radio it is the content that is the key, not the languages. The languages that we speak at Brampton Community Radio are merely a tool to get the word across.

12744   Our mandate is to help Canadian talent to come forward, to provide them with a platform, an avenue, an outlet to showcase the talent. Our mandate is to educate and to inform and not just provide third-language ethnic programming connecting immigrants with news from back home.

12745   Our responsibility as Canadians is to welcome all who join us in this land of opportunities with open arms and help them assimilate and integrate. We strongly believe in keeping the native culture and values alive, but it is even more important to make sure that these small ethnic groups do not get isolated but rather feel a part of the Canadian fabric.

12746   Using the help that we all can collectively offer, they learn, they improve and they take their position, as we do today, of coming forward to help others.

12747   We once again request the Commission to view Brampton Community Radio not as another ethnic service but as a community radio that chooses to serve those in need. Thank you.

12748   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

12749   Any questions?

12750   Just for the record, community, you don't mean a community radio station, this is a for-profit station.

12751   MR. ARORA: It's a not-for-profit community radio station.

12752   THE CHAIRPERSON: But you are not applying under community.

12753   MR. ARORA: Yes, we are.

12754   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you.

12755   THE SECRETARY: Thank you very much.

12756   I would invite the next presenter, S. Sivakkumaran on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated.

--- Pause

12757   THE SECRETARY: When you are ready to proceed, sir.

REPLY

12758   MR. SIVAKKUMARAN: Hi. My name is Sivakkumaran. I am the President and CEO of the applicant 2011-1656-7.

12759   We have provided an extensive reply to the interventions filed by CIAO 530, CINA 1650, CJMR 1320, CHIN 1540, CJSA 101.3, and WorldBand Media and other applicants on April 12 as part of our reply to the initial interventions.

12760   We have attached some appendices to the document today and it was a part of our reply. Those appendices are on the public record.

12761   I would like to start my reply.

12762   A number of incumbent ethnic broadcasters have intervened against the applicant for its proposal for new ethnic programming in the Toronto market. It must be stressed that many of the interveners ironically faced similar concerns during their licence hearings and have continued to prosper in this market, thus demonstrating that capacity and market share can be expanded with detriment to existing broadcasters.

12763   Summary of interventions.

12764   1. Overall, ethnic communities are adequately served by existing ethnic stations due to the introduction of CJSA, CINA, AM 1610, AM 1690 and FM 105.9.

12765   In each of the licensing decisions of AM 1610, AM 1690, AM 1650 and FM 105.9, the Commission indicated that the limited commercial viability of these stations would not cause a significant impact on existing ethnic stations. These stations have had limited geographical reach and serve niche segments of the ethnic population. The limited coverage of these stations restrict them from serving the Greater Toronto Area ethnic population in any reasonable way.

12766   The GTA's diverse ethnic population has rapidly increased and outpaced projections outlined in the Commission's 2001 Report to Cabinet. Demand for new radio service to ethnic population in the Greater Toronto Area has increased from 2001 to 2012. Radio service expansion to ethnic communities has lagged when compared to the growth in population and demand.

12767   Even after the introduction of ethnic services since 2001, there is still a lack of airtime slots for many ethnic communities. Many ethnic communities such as Filipino, Urdu, Tamil, Arabic, Farsi and African do not receive service during valuable day parts such as in the morning, midday, afternoon drive time or no daily service at all.

12768   Ethnic communities are expected to outpace the overall population growth of Toronto in the next two decades by a factor of 10. The applicant has chosen to provide service to communities that are projected to grow at the fastest rate.

12769   2. English, South Asian, Urdu and Tamil language service proposed by the station is not required and such service would result in negative financial impact on existing ethnic stations.

12770   The South Asian community in Toronto is mainly comprised of Punjabi, Hindi, Urdu and Tamil languages and is not homogeneous. As such, we will analyze each group separately.

12771   English-language South Asian programming.

12772   The English-language South Asian programming will be geared to the younger generation of South Asians, who are not being catered to by the existing ethnic stations. The younger audiences do not tune into AM stations due to the lack of signal quality. Eighty percent of South Asian programming is currently available on AM stations. Existing stations' programming is high on spoken word in language programming that does not contain news and information relevant to second-generation audiences.

12773   We have examined the current list of South Asian media outlets serving the younger generation and we estimate their revenues to be around $2 million. We compared the list of advertisers on these media outlets to the local advertisers on existing ethnic stations and found that 95 percent of the clients are different. Local businesses that cater to the younger generation are not advertising on existing ethnic stations in any significant way as these stations cannot reach the younger demographic.

12774   Urdu community.

12775   We conducted an extensive review of the South Asian program on ethnic stations and summarized the following facts:

12776   - Hindi and Punjabi programming accounts for 80 percent of all South Asian programming in Toronto and is directed solely at the Indian community.

12777   - Hindi and Punjabi programming did not provide any service to the Pakistani Urdu community to reflect their local needs. The advertisers in the Hindi and Punjabi program come from the Indian community and the Pakistani advertisers were visibly absent. Hindi and Punjabi programming in the Toronto market cannot be used as any indication of service to the Urdu-speaking Pakistani community. The majority of Urdu programming currently is after 7:00 p.m.

12778   - The total Pakistani advertising revenue in the GTA is estimated at $11 million. The station's Urdu revenues would represent less than 4 percent of media revenues in the Pakistani community. The audience the applicant will get for its Urdu program during its broadcast from 12:00 to 5:00 is absent from the existing ethnic market as they do not provide service to them during this time slot. Several supporting interveners from new and existing radio advertisers all indicated they intend to bring new advertising dollars to the station's Urdu programming.

12779   Tamil community.

12780   Many other communities that have similar sizes, such as Spanish, Hindi, Punjabi and Portuguese receive around 100 hours of radio programming. The Tamil community does not receive any afternoon or midday programming that reaches the GTA. It is also instructive to note that CJVF-FM 105.9, which is a 40-watt low-power station that covers only 1 percent of the GTA, has not intervened against us as their service we believe is very limited.

12781   Pointing hours of service from SCMO stations that require special receivers is not comparable to over-the-air service that reaches the community in their cars, where radio listenership is most.

12782   It is also instructive to note when CJSA applied for their licence they indicated SCMO service was inadequate as a reason for them being licensed and now they point to SCMO as being adequate. It's contradictory.

12783   Only CJSA-FM 101.3 provides Tamil programming over-the-air that reaches the entire GTA, with 47 hours per week. Only 15 hours of it is on weekday morning drive, with the other 32 hours after 9:00 p.m. and on weekends. This is hardly adequate service.

12784   The station's Tamil revenues will represent less than 5 percent of the estimated $5 million media revenues in the Tamil community. Several supporting interveners from new and existing advertisers all indicated they intend to bring new advertising dollars to the station's Tamil-language programming.

12785   The station has scheduled its Tamil programming in a way that does not conflict with the CJSA 101.3 Tamil programming. We anticipate existing stations will not face any significant impact from the applicant's program.

12786   The overall South Asian market.

12787   We estimate the total revenues of South Asian advertising to be in excess of $50 million. Print, television and radio represent 68, 20, and 12 percent of South Asian advertising revenues, respectively.

12788   The applicant's year one South Asian revenues would be less than $1 million and would represent about 2 percent of South Asian media revenues. It is therefore hard to see how this could have a significant impact on the South Asian media market.

12789   In conclusion, the Commission, by its own submission to Cabinet, has outlined the criteria it used to evaluate the need for licensing of a new station to reflect the multicultural and multiethnic reality of Toronto. The rationale it used outlined where the need was greatest and was based on census figures that show where the Toronto market is growing. This evaluation by your own staff and the Commission holds true on more recent census statistics.

12790   The current ethnic market serves first generations and has not addressed the younger demographic of Canadian ethnic communities in their programming. The station will feature English-language programming to reach second generation, intercultural communities such as African, and cross-culturally through our new immigrant programming.

12791   Music shall be the engine of the station as it can communicate across demographics and the station will not feature any substantial spoken word programming on religion, politics and other content from back home as we want to champion Canadian content and values.

12792   Years ago a great Prime Minister, Sir John A. Macdonald said: "Let us speak English or let us be French, and above all let us be Canadians."

12793   We believe that we are the only broadcaster with the vision and programming that says out of many one Canada.

12794   Toronto has the largest amount of second-generation Canadians in our country. A broadcaster that serves their needs helps serve the country in the long run.

12795   First-generation ethnic communities might have preferred the vertical segregation as a means of preserving their cultural identity. This might have been a reality when ethnic communities were smaller in size and proportion, from the '70s to the early 2000s. This is no longer a reality now. Toronto is becoming more ethnic in proportion and the integration of ethnic communities into the Canadian society, while preserving their culture, is an essential evolution of multiculturalism.

12796   Second generations are the majority in ethnic communities and as such they need a mass media platform in the radio market that will establish this new brand of integrated multiculturalism, which is as integral to the composition of Canada as our beloved Maple Leaf.

12797   The station will focus on music and local Canadian content in English and in third languages as a means of reaching ethnic communities linguistically, interculturally and cross-culturally, thereby reflecting the new reality of multiculturalism.

12798   It is our belief that a fundamental tenet of public policy should be to achieve equity of outcome. As custodians of public policy we request that you provide an opportunity to integrate newer cultural communities into the Canadian fabric through our programming and therefore urge that our application be considered.

12799   Commissioners and Chair, our panel not only sees you as Commissioners of the CRTC but also as custodians of public policy in nation-building.

12800   Thank you very much.

12801   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

12802   Any questions for clarification? No?

12803   Thank you very much for appearing.

12804   MR. SIVAKKUMARAN: Thank you.

12805   THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary, I suggest we take a little break for 15 minutes.

12806   THE SECRETARY: Fifteen minutes, all right. Thank you.

--- Upon recessing at 1512

--- Upon resuming at 1530

12807   THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary, let's begin.

12808   THE SECRETARY: We are now ready to hear the reply of Radio 1540 Limited. Please reintroduce yourselves for the record. You have 10 minutes.

REPLY

12809   MR. LOMBARDI: Thank you.

12810   Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, Commissioners. My name is Lenny Lombardi, President of CHIN Radio and TV International.

12811   To my left is Dario Amaral, our Vice-President of Sales and Vice-President of Programming at CHIN Radio.

12812   To begin with, I would just like to go on the record as well to advise the Commission that CHIN Radio in its application did receive Industry Canada approval for our technical brief.

12813   So throughout the proceedings we have heard some comments that we would like to address, and to begin with respect to South Asian programming.

12814   It was alleged this morning that we don't seem to understand the South Asian market. On the contrary, we know it is served by 440 hours of available programming each week, which is the largest allotment of hours to any ethnic group living in the GTA. This is a contributing factor to CHIN for the reasons we did not propose any additional programming serving the South Asian community in our application.

12815   We acknowledge that we hope to provide a modest 20 hours a week of Spanish-language programming. This need arises from the lack of business retail opportunities that was conveyed to us by members of that community. This programming will be complementary to San Lorenzo's already existing 114 hours of community programming on that station.

12816   San Lorenzo has not intervened in these proceedings. It is a not-for-profit station with limited advertising, supported by volunteers and fundraising events, is religious-based and it doesn't serve those retail needs.

12817   It was suggested that CHIN could simply juggle its schedule to accommodate the unserved ethnic groups we propose, but the fact is our existing schedule for 31 languages and 47 cultural groups is not as flexible as one might think.

12818   Do we drop our Portuguese or Croatian programming to communities we have served for over 40 years to introduce Tagalog or Russian? Do we lose a valuable financial source to serve groups that we believe won't show a profit for six years? It's not like tweaking a broadcaster playlist. These audiences are loyal to CHIN and they depend on us.

12819   There was a general assertion made by many applicants that had not, and I quote, "committed to new Canadian artists." I note that in our application CHIN has committed to 50 percent of our Canadian content will be from emerging ethnic artists of interest to new Canadians and old.

12820   It was argued that the GTA has the greatest variety of ethnic services in Canada. Generally if there is a variety of ethnic services in Canada's biggest ethnic market, it is because they are needed.

12821   Let me assure you that SCMO is not free. It requires specialty -- special costly equipment to receive signal, is a poor signal service, with little application in vehicles. You heard from our Associate Producers who operate SCMO services who spoke earlier about the shortcomings.

12822   It may be the over-55 English-speaking audience could use service other than the stations CFRB 1010, CBC One and 2, and 740 in Toronto, but we suggest the age group that we propose to serve, youth to old age that don't speak English, is 750,000 in number and has a greater need.

12823   While our programming costs may appear to be low, we propose a low-revenue and low-cost service because CHIN is singularly well placed with a range of synergies, studio equipment, administration and personnel to provide a quality service at low cost.

12824   CHIN is uniquely positioned to accept early year financial losses with no impact on existing services in order to build a profitable station over time, as much time as it takes, as we did from scratch at CJLL-FM in Ottawa.

12825   It was claimed that CHIN operating two frequencies in Toronto gave rise to concentration concerns. As you know, the Commission has accepted that multistation ownership in local radio markets is an effective way to support the growth and development of competitive high-quality radio services. Under these policies a company may own up to four stations, two AMs and two FMs in markets with eight commercial stations or more.

12826   Currently, there are nine commercial ethnic radio stations in the GTA. As such, it would be consistent with the established policies of the Commission, even under this more narrow definition of the relevant market, if CHIN were to be favoured with three commercial ethnic radio stations, one AM and two FM in the GTA.

12827   Beyond this, it should be noted that the ethnic media market as a whole in the GTA is highly competitive. Clearly, the approval of this application would not have a negative impact on the state of competition in this larger market.

12828   Mr. Chair, Commissioners, CHIN Radio will not harm any other station. It will provide diversity to groups that have no radio service in their language.

12829   Members of these groups likely don't have iPads on their desk, don't all Twitter and Facebook, don't have Internet access and don't download their own choice of music to their phones. Our proposed audience is 750,000 people and growing, with 90,000 new people arriving each year.

12830   Thank you very much.

12831   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

12832   Are there any questions from the panel?

12833   Thank you very much.

12834   Mr. Lombardi, it has taken me years to shed the name Lenny from my name. I now go by the name -- the term "Len" and you are not helping the matter at all.

--- Laughter

12835   MR. LOMBARDI: I have tried myself, and I can't do it.

12836   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

12837   THE SECRETARY: Thank you. I would now invite MTSD Broadcast Inc. to make their reply.

12838   I am not sure if they are in the room.

12839   Is MTSD Broadcast Inc. present?

12840   For the record, I don't think they are present.

12841   I would now invite Trust Communications Ministries to come forward.

--- Pause

12842   THE SECRETARY: Please reintroduce yourself for the record.

REPLY

12843   MR. JACKSON: My name is Scott Jackson, and I am the Executive Director of Trust Communications Ministries.

12844   Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners and CRTC Staff. I would like to start by taking this opportunity to thank the Christian music fans who appeared in our video presentation. It is their ongoing enthusiasm that has been the drive behind our application.

12845   Thank you to the musicians, the pastors, event coordinators, and everyone who supported the application, both in video, whose endorsements were included in our written application, and those who continue to cheer us on.

12846   In particular, I would like to thank Pastor Ginette Howse from Malvern Christian Assembly in Scarborough, who took the time out of her busy schedule last week to appear in person to offer commentary about our application, and provide insight into the diversity of church members who are potential listeners to our station.

12847   There was a question posed by the Chairman about the voting of our directors, and we provided clarification with the Commission's Secretary.

12848   In closing, on behalf of all the employees and directors of Trust Communications Ministries and our 88.1 Advisory Committee, thank you for hearing and considering our proposal to serve Toronto with a Christian music format.

12849   Thank you to the Staff for running this efficient process. God bless.

12850   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

12851   Are there any questions or clarifications?

--- Pause

12852   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, again, for appearing.

12853   Madam Secretary...

12854   THE SECRETARY: Thank you, sir.

12855   Tosan Lee, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated, would you please come forward.

--- Pause

12856   THE SECRETARY: Mr. Lee, please proceed when you are ready.

REPLY

12857   MR. LEE: Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, Commissioners and CRTC Staff. Thank you for this opportunity to respond to the interventions.

12858   My name is Tosan Lee, CEO of the applicant, 2011-1616-1.

12859   I would like to begin by responding to a statement in the intervention of Frank Torres, OBCI, specifically on page 5. I quote:

"The East Asian community is also well served in the Toronto market by Fairchild who specializes in East Asian programming not only in Toronto, but in Vancouver and provides programming in Mandarin and Cantonese as focus language groups."

12860   With respect, it is this type of blanket statement that clearly demonstrates the need for our station.

12861   I am sincerely disheartened to have to sit here before the Commission today and be forced to say, quite simply, we are not all Chinese. This is so basic, yet still not clear to many.

12862   The intervention goes on to state:

"In that decision the Commission accepted Focus' argument that most second and third generation multicultural youth are highly integrated into the Canadian mosaic, and look more to mainstream commercial oriented stations for their music and information."

12863   This clearly shows that second and third generation youth are looking to mainstream stations, not ethnic stations.

12864   Ultimately, mainstream needs to have cultural diversity, and our application does this most effectively.

12865   At this point I would like to call attention to the CRTC's own research in Public Notice 2005-24, which states:

"The Task Force identified two overall gaps as being critical in nature and in need of priority attention. These critical gaps were with respect to the significant under representation in Canadian television programming of Canadians of Asian and Southeast Asian descent, and the virtual absence of Aboriginal peoples."

12866   First, the single largest visible minority group in Canada is comprised of Canadians of Asian and Southeast Asian descent, including Chinese, Vietnamese, Filipino and Korean, some 1.7 million Canadians according to the 2001 Census.

12867   However, given their significant population proportion, they are significantly less likely to be represented on-screen.

12868   The Commission's response succinctly stated:

"Moreover, given the invisibility of Aboriginal peoples and the significant under representation of Asian Canadians, the Commission considers these to be serious issues of concern for the entire broadcasting industry."

12869   English-speaking East Asian and Southeast Asian communities currently have no public voice and representation. If we are not granted this licence, this deprivation of a public voice will continue for the next 10 to 20 years. It is more than just about music.

12870   Thank you once again, and I wish the Commission the best of luck with what is an impossible task.

12871   THE CHAIRPERSON: Near impossible task you meant.

--- Laughter

12872   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

12873   Are there any questions?

--- Pause

12874   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for appearing.

12875   Madam Secretary...

12876   THE SECRETARY: Mr. Chairman, I was just told that the President of WorldBand Media is here in the building, he is just not here in the room right now.

12877   Would it be agreeable to hear the next presenter before them?

12878   THE CHAIRPERSON: Sure.

12879   THE SECRETARY: Thank you very much.

12880   For the record, I would now invite 7954689 Canada Inc. to come forward.

--- Pause

12881   THE SECRETARY: When you are ready, I would invite you to reintroduce yourselves for the record. You may proceed with your ten-minute presentation.

REPLY

12882   MR. CONNELL: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. On my far left is Nicolas Tétrault, a managing partner of TTP Media.

12883   On my immediate left is Paul Tietolman, also a managing partner of TTP Media.

12884   On my right is Rajiv Pancholy, a managing partner of TTP Media.

12885   And on the far right is Steve Kowch, a member of the programming team at TTP.

12886   My name is Jim Connell, and I am also a member of the programming team at TTP Media.

12887   Mr. Chairman, Commissioners and Staff of the CRTC, once again we thank you for the opportunity to apply for the 88.1 FM frequency in Toronto.

12888   In applying for this valuable frequency, we are guided by three very important criteria that we feel are key to your stewardship of this scarce resource.

12889   Number one: What format best serves the people of Toronto.

12890   Second: Who can bring diversity, imagination and creativity to the market and enrich the listening environment.

12891   Third: This licence should be entrusted to the applicant who can deliver on their commitments through precise execution, and someone who has the ability to stay the course financially, while providing quality content.

12892   Our application addressed these essential criteria in great detail.

12893   Point one: A spoken word format makes the most sense for listeners on the FM band in Toronto. There are enough music and ethnic format stations on the radio -- 16 music stations, 11 ethnic stations, 1 Aboriginal, 2 sports, 1 all news, 1 national information, and 2 AM talk stations.

12894   Moreover, it has been demonstrated that listenership of music on radio is declining because of the proliferation of personal music players.

12895   A lack of variety and choice is not the reason for the reduced listenership to music radio. This has been further evidenced in a recently published study that shows that listenership of music on the radio in Canada is down 10 percent since 2006, while, not surprisingly, listenership of the spoken word format has increased 8 percent over the same period.

12896   Market studies commissioned by Tietolman Tétrault Pancholy Media confirm this to be true for the GTA market.

12897   This unmistakable trend toward spoken word format needs to be extended to two underserved market segments: younger demographics and female listeners.

12898   This, more than anything else, necessitates that the spoken word format be given space on the FM band.

12899   Point two: Who can bring the most diversity, imagination and creativity to the market.

12900   Several months ago we unveiled our unique way of doing talk radio, incorporating face-to-face, live local programming 24/7, and investigative reporting, programming concepts that will bring a new level of relevant talk to Toronto audiences.

12901   We are pleased to note that some elements of our proposal have since been incorporated into the offerings of Toronto radio, and to this we say, with confidence: We will continue to be market leaders.

12902   Point three: This licence should be entrusted to the applicant who has the ability to deliver on their commitments.

12903   Members of the Tietolman Tétrault Pancholy team have a track record of successfully implementing projects of far greater scope and complexity. This includes managing multisite and international organizations of up to 2,500 employees.

12904   Our principal members have raised funds in Canadian capital markets and from private equity funds in tens of millions of dollars.

12905   We enjoy the full confidence of financial institutions right here on Bay Street. We have veteran broadcasters on our team who bring seven decades of Canadian broadcast experience, a fair amount of which is directly related to our proposed talk format.

12906   The people at TTP Media and others involved in this project are passionate about talk information radio and we are fully prepared creatively and financially to share that passion with the people of Toronto with a new contemporary talk information radio station that we know Torontonians will be passionate about as well.

12907   We thank you for your attention and if you have any questions we are ready to answer them.

12908   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

12909   Any questions from the panel -- no?

12910   Thank you very much for appearing at this phase.

12911   MR. CONNELL: Thank you.

12912   MR. TIETOLMAN: Thank you very much.

12913   THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess in the absence of the Secretary we call upon WorldBand Media to come forward.

--- Pause

12914   THE CHAIRPERSON: I hope you folks own the printing company that produces all this paper.

12915   Okay. We are all ready. So go ahead.

REPLY

12916   MR. SELVADURAI: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners and Commission staff.

12917   I am Prabha Selvadurai, President of WorldBand Media.

12918   With me today are Pierre-Louis Smith, Judy Tapp, Soroopi Shan and Brian Thomas.

12919   Commissioners, the preponderance of our comments today will focus on two out of process interventions WorldBand received at the reply phase of this proceeding.

12920   The first was from MZ Media and the second from Frank Torres and DAWG FM.

12921   This reply will also address certain comments made by other parties including Doug Kirk in Phase II of this proceeding.

12922   These parties claim that the news stock market is well served and the TOUCH signal configuration will prevent it from reaching 17 percent of the target market and that this will have a downstream impact on WorldBand's audience and revenue projections.

12923   These parties make their rather simple-minded suggestion that WorldBand's content partnerships betray our ability to add diversity to the market.

12924   We respectfully disagree with these parties' allegations. Here is why.

12925   First, there is a strong demand for the spoken word format we intend to introduce and an appetite for TOUCH FM's proposed programming.

12926   Existing news talk stations are predominantly on the AM dial and target new listeners over 55. There is a demand for a news talk format on FM.

12927   We want to attract younger audience, women and visible minorities. To tell their stories we have established and credible partners to assist us.

12928   In our analysis 680 AM is all news, a utility station used by people for traffic, weather and news. It doesn't provide talk conversation programming.

12929   Only two private stations provide news talk, 1010 and 640, which target older male-skewed.

12930   We said it before and we will say it again. Touch FM will offer Toronto an inclusive, interactive, independent and intelligent news talk service unlike anything else it's ever seen before.

12931   Also, in response to MZ, we respectfully remind the Commission that 86 percent of the 18 to 49 demographic listen to FM.

12932   MS TAPP: Touch FM's audience and revenue projections are based on sound estimates. Contrary to MZ's written allegations and Doug Kirk revenue's share allegations there is nothing unrealistic about WorldBand's audience and share projections. Both are aligned with market realities. News talk is very sales friendly.

12933   This is in line with what has been filed by other applicants. When one considers that the CBC news talk station on the FM dial enjoys an 8.6 percent share one could reasonably assume that WorldBand's projected audience share is conservative.

12934   With respect to WorldBand's projected revenues, WorldBand notes MZ has cited market revenue numbers from the TRAM reports, whereas WorldBand used those supplied by the CRTC. This explains the discrepancy since TRAM does not include all radio stations operating in Toronto.

12935   Contrary to MZ's allegations, WorldBand is not projecting a 6.5 percent annual growth rate. This is a conclusion that MZ ascribes to WorldBand but it stems from MZ's use of TRAM numbers and their own forecasting projections, not ones supplied by WorldBand.

12936   Also, Doug Kirk pointed out that we have a higher revenue per share power ratio. It would appear that Mr. Kirk is not aware that the spoken word format generally attracts a higher power ratio. This is a market reality here and in most radio markets.

12937   For instance, the market is well aware that 680 News attracts around a 2.0 as power ratio. For one share of market share they attract two shares of revenue.

12938   As TOUCH FM builds its audience it will have better revenue per share.

12939   MR. SMITH: Both MZ and Frank Torres made several allegations relating to the technical parameters of WorldBand's proposal. We have appended to this rebuttal a full technical response to MZ's claims.

12940   Regretfully, neither of these to interveners properly consulted the very conclusive engineer study and coverage map prepared by Stewart Hahn on behalf of WorldBand and a number of other applicants.

12941   In the 3 m/Vm contour our signal will reach 1.7 million population or people. In the 0.5 m/Vm contour it would reach 4.2 million people.

12942   We can assure you that the signal contours were carefully considered by TOUCH FM's engineers and these indicators have informed our revenue and share projections.

12943   Furthermore, as we previously explained, TOUCH FM intends to broadcast in mono as opposed to stereo, because spoken word does not require the stereo signal. A mono signal for spoken word has no signal degradation or fidelity loss as others have claimed. Rather, mono signal drastically increases the listener's ability in areas where signal strength may be weak.

12944   CBC Radio One and others spoken word radio in the U.S. do it without losing quality but improving the signal listenability. Hence, TOUCH FM will benefit from a mono signal.

12945   To be clear, broadcasting spoken word in mono has no quality, fidelity loss but improves drastically the listenability. What a great way to guarantee coverage to more listeners than music.

12946   MS SHAN: WorldBand's content sharing arrangements and editorial control:

12947   Finally, contrary to MZ's assertions, WorldBand will have complete editorial control of TOUCH FM.

12948   WorldBand will maintain control over the production and distribution of all content received from its partners.

12949   WorldBand will exercise an independent editorial voice in the Toronto market.

12950   There is no truth whatsoever to suggest that TOUCH FM's programming will not be original programming. These suggestions are desperate attempts to discredit our application.

12951   We are proud of our content and marketing partnerships providing a synergic win-win solution to the Toronto market. In fact, we are bringing a true editorial and ownership diversity to Toronto market.

12952   MR. B. THOMAS: In conclusion, Commissioners, the interveners mentioned above have failed to raise any credible arguments at all.

12953   Once more, impact data that describes changes to incumbent tuning shares following the introduction of a news station in the market illustrate that WorldBand's estimates are clearly within the bounds of what other radio markets have experienced in terms of changes to tuning share of those incumbents.

12954   Finally, there is no merit to the argument that our proposed TOUCH FM service is somehow deficient in the diversity it will add to the Toronto market. Much to the contrary, WorldBand will bring historic new ownership and editorial diversity to English mainstream programming for the Toronto market.

12955   This is all about making history in Toronto for private spoken work on FM and for the future of the FM radio sector through an inclusive, interactive, independent and intelligent news talk service.

12956   MR. SELVADURAI: Throughout the process we were talking about TOUCH FM meaning the four key words Brian mentioned: inclusive, interactive, independent and intelligent.

12957   I would like to take just a few seconds in my own words what they really mean by it. When we say inclusive we mean a radio service targeting 18 to 54, grow the demo, especially young female and visible minority.

12958   When we say we see one conversation how for all Torontonians? When we say interactive we mean specifically integrating the social media, the mobile forms and other digital devices because we believe the radio's future depends on including these platforms in the radio experience.

12959   When we say independent now more than ever with the consideration that the Commission should make sure a new editorial voice should be in Toronto.

12960   When we say intelligent we mean news and information that does not stoop to the lowest common denominator.

12961   This is what we mean by TOUCH FM. This is what Toronto needs.

12962   Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, and Commission staff, it has been a great pleasure being here and thank you for making it truly an extremely pleasant experience here.

12963   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

12964   Are there any questions -- no?

12965   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for appearing in this phase.

12966   Madam Secretary, we will move on.

12967   THE SECRETARY: Thank you very much.

12968   I will now invite 2308739 Ontario Inc.

--- Pause

12969   THE SECRETARY: Are we ready to proceed?

12970   Just re-introduce yourselves for the record, first.

REPLY

12971   MR. FUOCO: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Vice-Chairman, Commissioners and staff.

12972   We are pleased to be back before you to discuss Biz88, our application for a business news station.

12973   I'm Chris Fuoco, Vice-President, Sales and Marketing at Channel Zero.

12974   I am joined today by Bryan Woodruff, General Manager of Biz88 to my right;

12975   Beside him is Mike Katrycz, Vice-President News for Channel Zero;

12976   To my left is Donna Skelly, journalist and news anchor with Channel Zero, and;

12977   Beside Donna is Joe Fortune, our Regulatory Advisor.

12978   Cal Millar regrets that he could not be here today.

12979   We appreciate this opportunity to reply to interventions made regarding Biz88.

12980   First, we wish to express our deep appreciation for the more than 300 supporting interventions that we received. Of these interventions 250 came from individuals and more than 50 came from small and midsize businesses, media buyers and potential advertisers for the station.

12981   For example, Daniel Passmore, President of Frechette Lawncare, commented:

"As the owner of a small business in the service industry I spend a lot of time driving. Having business information available on the radio will be very valuable to me." (As read)

12982   Connie Sugiyama, retired Bay Street lawyer, founder and member of the Advisory Council of Women in Capital Markets, wrote:

"I can attest to the fact that there is currently no equivalent programming available to listeners of which I am one, and I believe that Biz88 would not only provide a voice for Canadian entrepreneurs and business but would help boost the financial literacy and the financial acuity of Canadians, a laudable goal that is supported by our government and business. Canadians need Biz88." (As read)

12983   Gavin Lynch, co-owner and CIO of the Lynch Group of Companies, commented:

"The 30-second bare bones reports that other radio stations provide are almost meaningless to many business owners and consumers. Toronto needs a radio station that actually reports in-depth on what is going on and how it impacts everyone." (As read)

12984   We think that their participation in this hearing and their support for Biz88 speaks to the widespread demand and need for this service.

12985   We would now like to turn to respond to the interventions made by other applicants.

12986   MR. WOODRUFF: WorldBand's media intervention including their written intervention against Biz88 amounts to the claim that Biz88 will not attract sufficient listeners. This claim is based on the apprehension of what our business news format will be and what else is happening in North America.

12987   WorldBand claims that business news formats have not been successful anywhere in North America including New York City. This is simply untrue.

12988   Bloomberg's WBBR ranks in the middle of the pack of New York's 52 rated stations and has carried a business news format since 1993. It has achieved respectable ratings and longevity and that's despite a narrow focus on New York's financial elite.

12989   WorldBand also claims there are no other business news radio stations operating in any radio market in Canada or the U.S. This is again untrue. We have identified 34 business news stations operating in markets all across the U.S., ranging in size from Sweetwater, Florida to Denver to San Francisco.

12990   Last, WorldBand questions our commitment to local programming. As our schedule shows, Biz88 plans to broadcast 130 hours a week of local programming, 94 hours during the broadcast day and another 36 overnight. Channel Zero's commitment to local programming is well known to the Commission and it is the basis of our application.

12991   WorldBand's comments regarding the potential of our business news format in Toronto completely misses the point, as Donna will explain.

12992   MS SKELLY: As we presented and as you saw in our video, Biz88 will have wide appeal and will be accessible by a spectrum of listeners, not just the financial elite as suggested by WorldBand. Half of the respondents to our Harris Decima survey said that they were likely or very likely to listen to a business news station.

12993   In our presentation to you last week we pointed to a number of popular television programs, books and magazines that are widely watched and read by Canadians of all backgrounds.

12994   When complex financial issues are presented in plain English, Canadians listen. We will appeal to this broad audience as well as financial news junkies and the more than 200,000 people who work in the sector.

12995   MR. KATRYCZ: We will now turn to the omnibus interventions from Intercity Broadcasting Network, the Media Group, Diversity Emerging Music Collective, Family FM and others.

12996   Each of these interveners speaks in its own way to the need for diversity on Toronto's airwaves. Each opposes our application and other applications on the grounds that our application will not contribute sufficiently to diversity.

12997   Biz88 fully supports the objective of diversity and we have the greatest respect for these interveners. However, we believe strongly that our application will bring needed diversity to the Toronto radio market that it's ideally suited to appeal to individuals from all backgrounds and virtually all age groups.

12998   And, just as important, it will provide financial literacy.

12999   First, there is very limited business news on Toronto radio. As we pointed out in our initial presentation, less than 4 percent of the programming on existing news and talk stations on average is business news and information. Biz88 will fill that void.

13000   Second, Biz88 represents ownership and editorial diversity. Our station will broadcast spoken word programming providing substantive local news and information content. This kind of programming contributes directly to the diversity of editorial voices and exposes listeners to different points of view in the marketplace of ideas.

13001   Third, the Biz88 format is broadly based and is intended to reflect the entire diversity of Toronto's business community and potential listeners with an interest in business news programming.

13002   Entrepreneurship does not depend on your background and everyone in Toronto's cultural mosaic need reliable, financial information that goes behind the headlines.

13003   Newcomers to Canada who settle in Toronto especially stand to benefit greatly from the accessibility and in-depth coverage of topics on Biz88.

13004   The station will be directly relevant to them as individual consumers, the person starting a business or someone considering what to do with their savings. Biz88 will demystify the complexities of finance.

13005   Last, our programming will speak to all of the people of Toronto in a way that a music-based services, which must necessarily seek out a programming niche, cannot.

13006   Biz88 will make a significant contribution to diversity in Toronto and will provide much needed news and information to a broad and diverse segment of our population.

13007   MR. FUOCO: You have heard the argument that news and talk belong on the AM band. The second-highest rated station in Toronto is a news and talk format, CBC One, which is on the FM band. The precedent is there. The proven success is there.

13008   Now, I'm going to leave our script for a moment and address some points that were raised this morning.

13009   Further supporting the idea that FM is an appropriate band for news and talk, WorldBand pointed out that music consumption on radio is in decline and the accelerating trend of FM stations in the United States converting formats to talk and spoken word.

13010   You also heard this morning that some existing talk stations could switch formats to fill the void that we have identified. Respectfully, this is pure speculation and given the success of stations like 680 News, it is highly unlikely that they will change their focus.

13011   Furthermore, there has been some discussion regarding the difference in headcount between the Biz88 and the 680 newsrooms. In part, this reflects the focused nature of our business news and information programming. Our staff of 21 will be focused on gathering and presenting business news.

13012   The other aspects of news and information programming on Biz88 such as sports, weather, traffic or general news will directly leverage and tap into the existing news infrastructure already in place at the CHCH news centre which boasts a head count of over 180 people, operates 24/7 and outputs more local television news than any other over-the-air broadcaster in North America.

13013   Lastly, our revenue projections have been called into question. I should point out that several Commissioners during this hearing have commented on the thoroughness and detail contained in our financials.

13014   Our revenue model was developed with Sherry O'Neil, former managing director at OMD who was part of our application team. Sherry was also the vice-president and general manager of CFRB Radio.

13015   Once complete, we have added our model and our projections past two of the most respected and largest media buying agencies in the city.

13016   They confirmed our assumptions as accurate and achievable. Our projections are reasonable and we have great confidence in our business plan.

13017   Now back to our notes, paragraph 28.

13018   In our initial presentation, we said that we recognized that 88.1 FM represents a scarce resource in Toronto today. For this reason, we also said that this hearing boils down to one simple question; which application represents the best use of 88.1 for the widest number of Torontonians.

13019   We would like to revise that statement just a little.

13020   You have heard from many skilled and qualified broadcasters in this hearing and been very patient, so answering the question is probably not that simple.

13021   We wish you well in your deliberations and thank you for your time today.

13022   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

13023   Are there any questions?

13024   Commissioner Patrone.

13025   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

13026   It was suggested by one intervenor that you can't really afford to pay for the kind of expertise that you're going to need to provide the kind of information that you want on BIZ 88. Could you address that for me?

13027   MR. FUOCO: Brian, would you like to take that?

13028   MR. WOODRUFF: Sure.

13029   I can say yes, we can, and I can give you an example of just the experience that I've had, which you know some of.

13030   When I ran Canada's Business Network, I was the President and General Manager, we did 113 market updates. We did it with four staff, four very high qualified, expert staff.

13031   Arness Peterson, he was the market commentator for CFRB. Rob Graham, who we actually hired away from 680 News, and we had Fred Ketchen (ph), who was our chief market commentator, and we also had a very skilled newscaster, Paul Tipple.

13032   We did, again, 113 market updates, also provided a half hour of show called Canada's Business Report Daily and a weekend -- hour-long weekend business show with these four people.

13033   So first off, the expertise, it's there. It's out there, and we'll find it the same way we did when we launched the Business Network.

13034   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: Yeah, but Fred was with Scotia McLeod, wasn't he, or was he -- I don't know.

13035   MR. WOODRUFF: Fred was with Scotia McLeod, but all the radio stuff he did was under contract with Canada's Business Network. We actually sold back Fred to Scotia McLeod, if that makes any sense.

13036   COMMISSIONER PATRONE: Thank you very much.

13037   MR. WOODRUFF: Thank you.

13038   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

13039   I think that completes our questioning for your panel. Thank you very much.

13040   MR. WOODRUFF: Thank you very much.

13041   THE CHAIRPERSON: We'll do one more before we break again, Madam Secretary.

13042   THE SECRETARY: Thank you very much.

13043   Family FM.

--- Pause

13044   THE SECRETARY: So when you're ready, please reintroduce yourselves for the record. You have 10 minutes as well.

REPLY

13045   MR. FREDERICKS: Thank you.

13046   My name is Paul Fredericks. I'm the President of Family FM, and I have here sitting on my right Mr. David Bray, General Manager, Music Director, to be followed by Raisa Ally, who is our Community Relations Director, and following on my extreme right, it's Mark Charlebois, our General Sales Manager.

13047   Mr. Chairman, Vice-Chair, Commissioners and CRTC staff members, on behalf of the Family FM team I would like to thank the CRTC for considering our unique proposal for a family friendly radio station to serve the people of Toronto.

13048   We would like to respond to certain comments made during the hearing.

13049   One applicant claimed that Family FM added no diversity to the marketplace. We would like to stress the fact that Family FM offers a truly unique format.

13050   The music is eclectic in nature and the thematic emphasis is unlike anything in North America. The target group of families represents the largest unserved group in Toronto.

13051   Contrary to what one broadcaster said of Family FM, our share projections and financial forecasts are the most realistic and solidly grounded of any applicant. Our research is solid, with an excellent sample size.

13052   Even more importantly, our share projections comes with a realistic analysis of PPM trends performed by experts in the day to day working on all aspects of BBM radio audience data.

13053   This analysis details where the audience for the Family FM will be drawn from.

13054   The Family FM concept has been thoroughly researched. Working with BBM Analytics, Family FM undertook a survey of 1,000 Toronto listeners aged 25 plus. Our research indicates conclusively that there is an extremely strong demand in the marketplace for a family format station.

13055   As a matter of fact, from our survey results, 77.9 percent of the respondents were in favour of a family friendly station such as Family FM. 83 percent of the respondents also support Family FM playlists.

13056   MR. CHARLEBOIS: In an era of corporate consolidation, this marks one of the last opportunities to add a strong independent voice to the marketplace.

13057   Our team is comprised of professionals with extensive broadcast and media experience. We believe they have earned the opportunity to be heard.

13058   The history of radio in Toronto boasts a number of innovative entrepreneurs. It was true yesterday; it is still true today. Family FM's team has the wherewithal to meet that challenge.

13059   MR. ALLY: We have heard from intervenors and applicants that there is no need for more multi-cultural programming. While Family FM is not a multi-cultural radio station, we have committed to daily hours of music focusing on the Chinese, South Asian and Caribbean cultures. All will feature cultural music with lyrics in English.

13060   There are numerous Chinese, Caribbean and South Asian artists in Canada, all emerging by the CRTC definition, that are singing in English and are receiving no mainstream air play. They will benefit from exposure to a broader audience.

13061   Family FM is new radio, with the most progressive social media cross platform strategy of any applicant. This makes Family FM different, modern and forward thinking. This will allow us to attract a new audience and help to revolutionize traditional radio.

13062   MR. BRAY: It was implied that Family FM was in some ways a religious format. Family FM is neither religious nor political in nature.

13063   Our goal is to speak to families of all cultures, creeds and backgrounds. Our mandate is to deliver songs with wholesome and uplifting messages, i.e. with no swearing or violence, and relevant spoken word programming that addresses the needs of families.

13064   Parents can rest assured that their families will never be exposed to content or themes they wouldn't approve of. For example, certain current hits by Rihanna or Drake with overtly sexual content would be deemed inappropriate.

13065   Conversely, a song like "Dance With My Father", the Grammy Award-winning song by Luther Vandross, would make the playlist, as would songs by Sarah McLaughlin, Taylor Swift, Josh Groban, Andre Bocelli. "Money for Nothing" would not make the playlist, while another Dire Straits song might.

13066   Songs with historical themes that would be deemed positive would make the list. For example, consider the Juno Award-winning song by one of our intervenors, James Keelihan, "Abraham", which discusses the Plains of Abraham and the goal of making peace between Francophone and Anglophone cultures. That would make the playlist.

13067   Canadian artists have provided us with a wealth of moving, thought-provoking material, a library too great to detail here.

13068   To clarify, Family FM's playlist will be defined firstly by the lyrical content and secondarily by the music, regardless of genre. The result will be an unprecedented eclectic music mix. Folk, country, adult contemporary, R&B, blues, multi-cultural, et cetera, all will be embraced if the song's message speaks to family issues in a positive fashion.

13069   All will be tied together by the compelling nature of the themes.

13070   It is worth nothing that our research demonstrated the need for a broader genre, eclectic music with proper talk content.

13071   Moreover, recent PPM has indicated that listeners tuned to a broader mix of material than previously thought. On average, listeners regularly tune to six stations covering a mix of genres. The hunger for diversity seems clear.

13072   Additional evidence of eclectic tastes on the part of many listeners can be found in the millions of iPod users with broad content and a shuffle option. Clearly, there is a taste for diversity. There is no need for additional, narrowly-defined formats.

13073   On a completely separate issue, and you've heard this a few times, Mr. Torres indicated we didn't have technical approval from Industry Canada. I can see you laughing now.

13074   Yes, of course, our engineer, Stewart Hann, has filed the approval some months ago and it has been on file with your -- with the Commission.

13075   MR. FREDERICKS: In summary, we've assembled an outstanding team of experienced broadcasters and media professionals who are passionate about bringing this unique opportunity to Toronto.

13076   Awarding the 88.1 frequency to Family FM will bring the following benefits to the community and the broadcast system.

13077   One, new ownership and diversity. Two, a unique format providing a new listening experience for families. Three, provide through ethnic and cultural diversity in a mainstream English language station. Four, a solid business plan backed by an experienced, diverse team. Five, 40 percent Canadian content and 15 percent emerging Canadian artists covering a broad range of musical genres with our eclectic format. Six, over $5 million committed to Canadian content development.

13078   In closing, I would like to thank the intervenors who spoke on our behalf as well as the over 50 major Toronto-based organizations such as MADD Canada, Sick Kids Hospital, Long & McQuade Musical Instruments, Toronto Parks and Recreation, et cetera, et cetera.

13079   We are grateful to our entire community in the GTA who've showed their support.

13080   Mr. Chairman, Vice-Chair, Commissioners, CRTC staff, it is safe to say that Family FM will be the best use for this last frequency that is available in the Toronto market. Our entire community will benefit from our station.

13081   Thank you for your consideration, and we're looking forward in serving our community, Toronto, through 88.1 FM. Thanks.

13082   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

13083   Are there any questions?

13084   Thank you very much.

13085   MR. BRAY: Thank you.

13086   THE CHAIRPERSON: And we'll now take a break for 15 minutes and review the last applicant.

13087   THE SECRETARY: Can I just make an announcement, Mr. Chairman, before we break?

13088   THE CHAIRPERSON: You can.

13089   THE SECRETARY: I would like to note for the record that Paulette Andrea Hamilton, who did not appear in Phase III earlier today, has requested that a written copy of her oral presentation and her position to the application by Radio Ryerson be added to the record.

13090   Radio Ryerson objected to this request. In the circumstances of this case, the Panel has determined that the written remarks will be accepted and that Radio Ryerson will have until 4:30 tomorrow, Thursday, May 17, to respond in writing to the contents of this document.

13091   As such, the written comments of Ms Hamilton have been added to the record.

13092   Thank you very much.

--- Upon recessing at 1626

--- Upon resuming at 1639

13093   THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary, let's get going.

13094   THE SECRETARY: All right. So we have at the presentation table Rock 95 Broadcasting Inc.

13095   Please reintroduce yourselves for the record. You have 10 minutes.

REPLY

13096   MR. BINGLEY: Thank you, Madam Secretary.

13097   To my left is David Carr, our Vice-President of Programming, and I'm Doug Bingley, President and General Manager of Rock 95 Broadcasting.

13098   I'd first like to thank the many intervenors and individuals who signed petitions in support for our project. That totals of 4,000 individuals. And we'd like to particularly thank the panel of intervenors who supported us here at this hearing.

13099   We met that group at Canadian Music Week, where we received an amazing amount of support from the many musicians and small business people who earn their living in Canada's music industry.

13100   Now, turning to other interventions, in their intervention, World band stated that tuning to music-based stations is in decline, thus, any new licence should be for a talk-based format.

13101   One of the main reasons that tuning has declined is the lack of variety of musical formats. Evidence shows that although hours tuned are down, the reach of radio is almost the same as it was 30 years ago, and I'll illustrate this.

13102   My favourite cereal is Raisin Bran. I buy Raisin Bran at Loblaws, but if Loblaws stops stocking it, I'll go somewhere else to find that cereal. That's how lack of choice works. But here's the danger.

13103   If I start going to other stores to buy my cereal, I'll probably start buying other products there as well until one day I stop going to Loblaws altogether. And that's why musical variety is so important.

13104   Listeners are still tuning to music-based stations, but when they can't get the music they want on the radio, they find it somewhere else. And we must give listeners the music we want or, one day, they could switch off the radio altogether.

13105   World band states that it would be more appropriate to use 88.1 for spoken word since use of FM for talk would bring younger listeners to the format, but it's not technology keeping younger listeners away from talk radio; it's just that they prefer other formats.

13106   And I can assure you that younger listeners have the technical savvy to find the AM button on their radio.

13107   World band also cites conversion of FMs to talk in the U.S. is support for allocating 88.1 for use by a talk format, but they could only demonstrate a handful of licensees in only a few of the largest markets. That's from over 5,700 FM stations in the U.S.A.

13108   And there's one key factor in Canada that does not exist in the U.S., and that is CBC Radio. With immense resources and high quality programming, CBC crowds out opportunities for spoken word formats.

13109   In a written intervention, Intercity stated that mainstream stations should not be licensed since there would be greater public benefit derived from increasing coverage areas for minority focused stations. But allocating this last frequency to Intercity or any other broadcaster already having a station in the market would only produce marginal public benefits. I illustrate this.

13110   Assume that a hypothetical station had 50,000 listeners in Toronto within their target group. An increase in coverage area of 20 percent would provide services to an additional 10,000 incremental listeners, many of whom can already hear the station in some locations, just not in all locations.

13111   Now, compare that 10,000 marginal benefit to that of a new radio station providing service to an additional 600,000 listeners.

13112   During their presentation, Michael Weckerle, OBCI, stated that Indie 88.1 would have 40 percent duplication with existing stations. We assume that this was based upon monthly or lifetime spins, and this can be a little misleading since if a song is spun only once in a market, it is considered duplication.

13113   To provide a better apples to apples comparison, we compared our submitted playlist, which was prepared the week of November 20th, to music played by Toronto stations during that same week. And you have before you a summary of that that shows very little duplication.

13114   Radio 1540 states that we're a niche station and that other commercial stations which previously operated in niche formats have moved to larger mainstream formats where revenue opportunities were greater, the implication being that we would do the same.

13115   Well, first we would point out that niche does not mean tiny. For example, when it was first launched, the minivan was considered a niche product. It still is, but there's a very lucrative market for it.

13116   In the case of the indie format, we forecast an audience of 600,000, more than enough to meet our business case. And in developing our business plan, we reviewed the 10-year PBIT forecast and found an internal rate of return of approximately 18 percent.

13117   Further, service to 600,000 disenfranchised listeners is a significant public benefit.

13118   As to moving to a larger format, the best assurance we can give the Commission that we will not do so is the business reality that flows from the 88.1 frequency as well as our size as an independent.

13119   First, the reduced signal at 88.1 demands a format that is not in direct competition with other stations having high power signals. Second, w do have the resources to operate a smaller station, but we don't have the resources to go head to head with the large players in the marketplace.

13120   Our best opportunity is to focus on a market space that's big enough for our needs, but not large enough to attract the interest of larger broadcasters, which have higher cost structures and shareholder expectations. Those broadcasters target formats with much higher revenue potential.

13121   Ryerson states that we would not be new music based. That's not correct. What drives indie is new music. And the Vice-Chair commented during our presentation that it would be important that we maintain credibility with our listeners, and that's 100 percent correct.

13122   In order to maintain credibility with an indie format, we must play current music, and that's why our plans are to program music levels of 70 percent current and recurrent.

13123   Finally, World band and others stated in their interventions that Toronto is saturated with music-based stations.

13124   Now, you have before you a chart that's labeled "1987 and 2012". And this chart is, I think, very useful as you analyze the marketplace because it shows you the movement of stations over the last 25 years. It also reflects all the licences that were issued during that period of time.

13125   And just turning to that chart for a moment, let's take a look. If you look back at 1987, there were 16 music-based stations. Today, there are 11.

13126   Now, that may be somewhat surprising because what happened to them? Well, a lot of the stations back in '87 were music-based AM stations. AM was still quite viable, with 40 percent of the hours tuned.

13127   So when you hear listeners complaining that there's lack of musical choice, no wonder. When you look at the number of music-based stations in Toronto, it's one of the lowest numbers for markets of this size in the world.

13128   Turning down the chart, you'll see that the number of talk stations has more than doubled. Specialty music has gone from two to three stations.

13129   Looking at community, campus and religious, that's gone from three to seven. Ethnic, from four to 12, including one rebroadcaster for 12 frequencies.

13130   So we take a look at distribution by format as a percentage, you'll see that mainstream music accounted for 57 percent of the licensees 25 years ago; only 27 percent today. And the largest by percentage today is ethnic, now accounting for 32 percent of the licences issues.

13131   Commissioners, it's been over 20 years since the CRTC licensed a new commercial music station which would provide service to all Toronto listeners. And the question of this hearing has to be, what would you do with the last piece of Crown land.

13132   I tell you what I'd do: I'd open a park and make that park one that appeals to all of the public.

13133   That's why we believe a commercial music-based service is the most appropriate use of this last quality FM frequency.

13134   That concludes our response. We very much appreciate the support and patience of Commission staff, as well as their kindness to us, and thanks also to the panel.

13135   I know it has been a long couple of weeks. The holiday weekend is coming up and, like many Torontonians, I'm going to grab a 24 and head for the cottage and I hope all of you will be able to enjoy the weekend as well. Thank you very much.

13136   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

13137   Any questions at all? No?

13138   Thank you.

13139   You already live close to the cottage up there, so you haven't got far to go.

13140   MR. BINGLEY: I always seem to be down here.

13141   THE CHAIRPERSON: The rest of us in Toronto have a long drive to get up there.

13142   MR. BINGLEY: Thank you.

13143   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

13144   THE SECRETARY: Thank you very much.

13145   I will now invite our next presenter, Frank Torres OBCI.

--- Pause

13146   THE CHAIRPERSON: People are ready?

13147   THE SECRETARY: Yes, they are setting up their audio.

13148   We are now ready to proceed. Please reintroduce yourselves for the record and you have 10 minutes as well.

REPLY

13149   MR. E. TORRES: Thank you.

13150   To my left, Aubrey Clarke, my brother and business partner Frank Torres, Kim Elliot, and on the far left of your panel, Jeff McFayden. My name is Ed Torres and I am the President of SkyWords and the CEO of DAWG FM.

13151   We take this opportunity to reply to interventions in support and opposing our blues and blues-rock FM radio format application.

13152   Let me begin first by stating for the record our most sincere thanks to the many thousands of supporters of our vision to put the blues on the air in the heart of the Canadian blues landscape, Toronto. Those supporters include:

13153   - over 50 Canadian Blues artists, including Downchild Blues Band, Monkey Junk, Jack de Keyzer, Shakura S'Aida;

13154   - The Toronto Blues Society;

13155   - Toronto City Councillors Mark Grimes and Gloria Lindsay Luby;

13156   - Member of Provincial Parliament Todd Smith;

13157   - Members of Parliament Sergio Mario and Matthew Kellway;

13158   - Senior VP, Radio Buyer, Mediabrands, Dave McDonald; and

13159   - numerous potential advertisers such as Active Green and Ross, Calabogie Peaks, Hakim Optical, ReMax and many others.

13160   MS ELLIOT: We also acknowledge the support of Academy Award nominee, Member of the Order Canada and Canadian icon Dan Aykroyd, who we woke up at 5:00 a.m. in California to appear as a supporting intervener last Wednesday.

13161   Mr. Aykroyd stated, and I quote:

"Of course we are contemplating bringing a House of Blues to Toronto. I think that the Live Nation people are now seeing that that's something that should be done, and Toronto has come right to the top of our list of places where we could put a House of Blues. And obviously, you know, DAWG FM is going to be instrumental in getting us going there and we are going to be, you know partners in the enterprise."

13162   How much more attractive does Toronto become to the Live Nation and House of Blues if you grant us a blues licence? The fact that Mr. Aykroyd and his partners are considering Toronto speaks volumes to the affinity for live blues music that Torontonians share.

13163   House of Blues is a tourist destination and in itself could be a tourist draw for our city. Toronto can become the first Canadian locale for this iconic music venue and join the proud line of locations in places like Anaheim, Atlantic City, Boston, Chicago, Cleveland, Dallas, Houston, Los Angeles and Las Vegas.

13164   There is a vibrant Canadian blues scene that DAWG FM Ottawa has just begun to help expose and the approval of this application is a game changer for Canadian blues artists.

13165   Interveners have miscategorized our music format and we would like to provide some clarification.

13166   Our format gives us a competitive edge at this hearing. We invented it. We studied it, researched it, tweaked it and continue to refine it. We know the kind of songs that work. Our format appeals to an underserved demo in this market, mainly males 35 to 54. Our slide demonstrates the void in this market. Further, we will have commercial appeal and offer a diverse choice to the Corus-owned male-targeted music stations Q107 and Edge 102.

13167   Our format gives a voice to emerging Canadian artists. Over 50 percent of our playlist will be made up of emerging artists. We will spin close to 30,000 tracks from Canadian blues artists and this type of focus support for a specific genre of Canadian artists is unmatched by other applicants.

13168   Our format is based on the premise of creating a flow through all of the music of the station. The common thread is blues. We play bluesy tracks from well-known artists like "Crossroads" by Derek and the Dominos or "Yer Blues" by the Beatles and we place them back-to-back with Canadian artists like Monkey Junk or Shakura S'Aida and then hit them with classic blues from B.B. King or John Lee Hooker. Our core blues lovers are happy.

13169   While other stations may play the Beatles or Derek and the Dominoes, they don't go as deep into the blues catalog as DAWG does and they certainly don't play any emerging Canadian artists or classic blues artists, period.

13170   We will support Canadian artists and foster their growth and exposure in Canada's largest market. No other applicant at these proceedings even comes close to this level of support for Canadian content.

13171   Interveners commented on the best use and quantity of CCD commitments. Canadian Content Development is more than just dollars. Our format will spin thousands of blues tracks every year. We will support the national blues awards program, the MAPLE Blues Awards. We will create blues festivals and we will help artists to sell CDs and downloads.

13172   We maintain that our application has the most fiscally responsible and well-directed CCD of any of the applicants. It balances an independent radio operator's ability to run a successful business while providing benefits in the most direct ways to Canadian blues artists.

13173   MR. F. TORRES: Interveners commented on the importance of local ownership. Toronto is our backyard. It is very important to note that we have been selling radio in Toronto for well over 20 years. We are solidly rooted in the community and in touch with what works and what does not work in the market.

13174   My brother and I grew up in the Beach in the east end of Toronto. A trip to the country at that time meant going to Scarborough to take a look at the bluffs. We graduated from Danforth Technical School. I learned to fly in the Air Cadets as a member of 330 Squadron Danforth Tech. My first job was driving a fuel truck at the Toronto Island Airport.

13175   Later we started SkyWords in this City, a company that we have grown into a national company over its 20 years of existence. My current residence in the Beach is just a few blocks away from my parents' home where I grew up and where they still live.

13176   Interveners commented on their ability to serve Toronto, but many of the applicants are not local to Toronto and do not have the infrastructure that we currently have in this market. We have client relationships that we have forged over 20 years of providing them with radio and advertising solutions in Toronto.

13177   We own commercial studios and have space already available to turnkey launch this station in six months. We can do this because this is our backyard, home to our head office and most of our management team and synergies.

13178   MR. CLARKE: Interveners questioned whether a new player can compete in this market. Starting a new format is a capital-intensive venture and payback comes down the road with the ability to spread out over numerous radio frequencies and in markets that work. Toronto is that market and is our backyard.

13179   The Toronto Blues Society is Canada's largest and lead blues society. Its full-time staff and resources connect the thousands of blues fans in Toronto and across Canada. The Toronto Blues Society organizes and executes the MAPLE Blues Awards, which every year brings thousands of blues fans to Toronto to celebrate Canadian blues from Vancouver to Halifax.

13180   Toronto is a hotbed for live music. It ranks third in North America in terms of live music venues. We hope that one of those venues will be the House of Blues, as Mr. Aykroyd mentioned, as a perfect partnership for our blues format.

13181   MR. F. TORRES: A number of interveners questioned the best use of 88.1 MHz. From a technical standpoint it cannot be questioned that we have engineered the best and most efficient use of 88.1, offering 8000 watts of power. Most of the applicants at this proceeding are under 1000 watts.

13182   Please refer to a comparative analysis of 0.5mV contours of most of the technical briefs. Now, this slide should be on the AV presentation, but you do have it attached to the back of the brief there.

13183   The first slide shows the contour of the 890-watt applicants; the second slide shows the 4000-watt applicant; the third shows Newcap's 7000-watt signal; and the last and by far best-reaching and highest-power contour is the one engineered by our engineers at 8000 watts max, 2000 watts average ERP.

13184   This is the last decent signal left in Toronto and it should not be under-engineered simply to replay the process of the current applicant applying for a technical boost to our engineered 8000 watts.

13185   Our final point on intervening comments about best use of frequency can be addressed by focusing on the call itself. The call states that technical approval must be received at least 20 days before the hearing or April 17.

13186   On April 18 the Commission received BNC 2012-126-2. An abridged version is attached as well. It should be on screen, but our AV seems not to be functioning.

13187   In it the Commission clearly states Industry Canada's concern that a number of applicants would have to reduce their parameters.

13188   In the interest of fairness, we would like to stress that applicants should not be allowed to adjust their technical parameters or submit approved technical briefs past that procedurally determined date of April 17 or the original deadline for submission of applications, which was December 19, 2011. This breaks the vacuum of the balanced playing field that we all started with at the beginning of the process.

13189   As a standalone operator in the Ottawa market, we recognize that you need to squeeze every watt possible out of your coverage. At 8000 watts in Toronto, we will be nearly twice as powerful as our current Ottawa watt signal.

13190   The Commission must question why applicants have intentionally under-engineered this frequency. 100, 200, 900 watts: they are not going to penetrate the concrete jungle that we have heard so much of these last couple of weeks.

13191   So why would applicants not engineer the frequency to its full potential? Is it to keep away from common ownership conflicts with their existing stations? Is it to intentionally suppress the signal to provide a backdoor entry into the market on a very small business plan with a minimal effect on incumbents, then appear before the Commission again to receive a technical boost up to our 8000 watts?

13192   MR. F. TORRES: Interveners commented about the ability of the market to sustain a new commercial entrant.

13193   Given the strength of the Toronto radio market and its consistently high PBIT numbers compared to the rest of Canada, the best use of 88.1 is to award a frequency to a commercial applicant who can best exploit the commercial potential of the frequency, add diversity to the market with respect to musical format, increase competition amongst current incumbent broadcasters specifically serving the 35-54 male age group, and DAWG has demonstrated this demo is clearly underserved and there is a pent-up demand for new revenue to come into market.

13194   And also, the applicant should be able to bring new ad revenue to the market. This is SkyWords' backyard and we have been selling Toronto radio here for over 20 years.

13195   DAWG will tap into the latent demand for blues and blues-rock music and reconnect Torontonians with Toronto's rich blues and blues-rock history. We will provide a musical platform in Canada's blues music capital, Toronto.

13196   We submit the DAWG FM application will strengthen a 20-year broadcaster in the GTA, bring diversity, plurality and new competition to the market. This is a game changer for us. We are ready, we are able to bring blues to Toronto.

13197   To close, please accept my most sincere thanks to the Commission and to Commission staff for your public service and your thoughtful consideration of this matter. Thank you.

13198   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

13199   Any questions? No?

13200   Thank you very much for appearing in this phase.

13201   THE SECRETARY: Thank you very much.

13202   I will now call Durham Radio Inc., please.

--- Pause

13203   THE SECRETARY: When you are ready, please reintroduce yourselves for the record and you have 10 minutes.

REPLY

13204   MR. KIRK: Thank you, Madam Secretary.

13205   Acting Vice-Chair Katz, Vice-Chairman Pentefountas, Commissioners Molnar, Poirier, Menzies, Patrone and Simpson, and Commission staff. We were here last week in case you don't remember.

--- Laughter

13206   MR. KIRK: Good afternoon. I am Doug Kirk, President of Durham Radio.

13207   On your right is Andrew Forsyth, our consultant, and on your left is Mary Kirk, my lovely wife and editor of the proceedings that have gone on it seems like forever, and Steve Kassay, our Vice-President of Operations for Durham Radio.

13208   On behalf of my team, I sincerely want to thank the more than 500 Toronto area residents who offered real heartfelt letters of support for our application to bring a new easy listening format to Toronto.

13209   I also particularly want to thank Don Valley MP John Carmichael, Oshawa MP Dr. Colin Carey, and the Honourable Jim Flaherty, MP for Whitby-Oshawa, Minister of Finance for Canada and the Minister responsible for the GTA, who have heartily supported our application.

13210   We also want to thank the numerous artists who offered articulate and passionate support for our proposal, which offers unique and specific benefits and substantial contributions to Canadian music and broadcasting industries.

13211   As an award-winning Canadian pop artist, Rob Tardik, who was here last week and recounted the story, Durham Radio does play more than the music. We help artists from the patio of the Boulevard Club to the international stage.

13212   Also, our thanks go to you, Commissioners presiding over this multifaceted hearing and to the Commission staff for their professional and helpful approach while we conducted this lengthy and complex process.

13213   For the record, in Phase I of this hearing we believe we were not asked if we would accept the Commission's amended section 15 of the Radio Regulations requiring licences for revenues over $1.25 million to make the 15 percent of basic CCD contribution to the Community Radio Fund of Canada, and I just wanted for the record to confirm that we would accept this as a condition of licence.

13214   I have a couple of off-script comments that have sort of been flying around the room as this developed and we just couldn't edit or type this quickly.

13215   There were a couple of assertions made by MZ Media in this proceeding about AM frequencies and there not being the ability to implement additional AM frequencies.

13216   Just for the Commission's record, you are likely well aware of it and excuse me if I'm boring you with repetition, but certainly the frequencies, AM frequencies 1610 and 1690 have been implemented in Toronto, within the City of Toronto since year 2000, and in fact the 1610 frequency, CHHA, was granted a high-power FM up to 10,000 watts, I believe it was, a year ago.

13217   Secondly, I know the previous intervener Ed Torres mentioned about technical proposals. The technical proposals that you have seen are multiple, but they are all essentially the same. Most of the additional power a number of the applicants have talked about don't really cover a whole lot more land, they cover a whole lot more lake, and if you are going for fish that's probably helpful but I don't think it really makes a huge difference to the technical assessment of any of the applicants for 88.1.

13218   In response to specific points raised earlier by Intercity Broadcasting Network with regard to our application, we wish to address some of the incorrect assertions.

13219   Our Toronto application for NEZ is predicated on 11 years of experience with the smooth jazz brand at CIWV-FM in Hamilton-Burlington. Initially, the central market area was limited to Hamilton and Burlington, and not the GTA and Southern Ontario as claimed by Intercity. This market alone did not provide a large enough audience for long-term sustainability.

13220   That said, we continued to evolve the format and create a network of relationships with performers across Canada and the United States for over a decade. As well, we implemented technical enhancements that expanded the coverage area slightly, eventually covering a small segment of the GTA in Oakville and Mississauga.

13221   It was obvious to us that the demand and usage for the service was growing in the west GTA, not in Hamilton. The attached graph in the presentation shows the whole story in one picture.

13222   It shows the dramatic growth in the non-central market audience. The central market there on the very bottom line of the graph refers to the central Hamilton-Burlington market. The middle dotted line is the non-central audience and the top solid line is the full coverage audience.

13223   Clearly, what that says is that the non-Hamilton audience was the part that was growing and growing quickly. Basically that's why we are here. It shows dramatic growth in the non-central market as the signal was made available east of the Hamilton market.

13224   Our application will service the Toronto market where there is a demand for new easy listening as indicated by our research and demonstrated by our previous experience, as noted in the chart we just discussed.

13225   As our condition of licence attests, we are unequivocally committed to this music format with its unique instrumental component and we guarantee it will work. We have over a decade's worth of practical experience evolving this mainstream style of contemporary music.

13226   It serves the underserved 45-64 audience demographic which craves it and it provides exposure to underexposed Canadian artists with no other outlet for their music. It does not duplicate others.

13227   We think it is a great use of 88.1 in Toronto. Durham Radio looks forward to applying our energy and experience to launch a fresh new service for all residents of Toronto. We hope we have made your job and decision a bit easier.

13228   That was easy.

--- Laughter

13229   MR. E. TORRES: Thank you very much for your attention.

13230   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

13231   Any questions, clarifications?

13232   Thank you very much for appearing.

13233   THE SECRETARY: Thank you very much.

13234   I will now invite Mr. Bhupinder Bola.

--- Pause

13235   THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary, let's begin.

13236   THE SECRETARY: All right.

13237   Mr. Bola, please reintroduce yourself for the record. You have 10 minutes.

REPLY

13238   MR. BOLA: Good afternoon, Chair, Commissioners and Commission staff. My name is Bhupinder Pip Bola.

13239   Seated to my left is Nelson Millman; he is acting as a consultant on this project. Next to Nelson is Chuck Yeoung; Chuck is the President of WOW TV. To my right is Eddy Lelievre and to his right is Bhupinder Toor.

13240   Eddy will now begin our formal presentation.

13241   MR. LELIEVRE: As requested by the Commission at the hearing of May 8, 2012, we filed the fall 2011 BBM survey on May 10, 2012. It highlighted the single station small markets with a 15 percent or higher share and, as requested, provided evidence of local stations achieving this in markets where spill from larger urban centres exist.

13242   To clarify our statements regarding other revenues in the amount of $829,400 for year one, we will deconstruct how we got there.

13243   It is made up of airtime blocks sold to ethnic community producers during evening and weekend times. This is neither atypical for this format, nor risky.

13244   In fact, given the shortage of available airtime, the importance of this third-language market in Markham and attractiveness of what we offered to both consumers and producers, our ethnic program partners are prepared to make a three-year contractual commitment for airtime.

13245   They recognized the demand in this market and it's very strong currently and the market is growing. There is a new arena coming, there are the Pan Am games, and the retail market is growing.

13246   Furthermore, producers of all of our ethnic programming are willing to offer a letter of credit to protect their future business opportunities in this region.

13247   We are not abdicating any responsibility in brokering programs. Ethnic broadcasters know that the best way to reflect the community is to have direct input from its members.

13248   Having production that originates in the market, with oversight from us, engages listeners, involves advertisers and delivers exactly what listeners want. It is no less professional than an in-house show that meets all the requirements of the Broadcasting Act and Broadcast Standards Council.

13249   How is this enforced?

13250   Two ways: a community advisory committee, which we described last week as a programming committee, and through the Code of Conduct.

13251   We will provide ongoing training to producers and production stuff on the Code of Conduct set out by the Broadcast Standards Council, engage in spot checks on programming, and rigidly enforce and spearhead the tenets of the Code.

13252   We will invite members of the community not affiliated with the producers to participate on an advisory committee. We will task them with providing feedback from the community on the programming we offer and liaise with the community.

13253   Criteria will apply for assembling our programming board. It will include local social services and charitable organizations. It will include local talent, especially Markham youth, institutions like Seneca College, community police officers, one resident from each community, one member from the Town of Markham Council, for a total of 15 to 20 people who will meet every three months to provide guidance and input.

13254   MR. MILLMAN: We would like to clarify that there is no English-language content in the ethnic-language programs. Our discussion regarding news was to establish our slightly different approach to managing third-language production. Unlike a pure brokerage situation where we sell the airtime and have nothing further to do with the content, we will in fact require input on news.

13255   Our research shows that consumers lack local news and information. With limited production budgets, many third-language programs rely on Internet sources for news and as a result end up with mostly international news. It is simply too expensive for them to have local reporters.

13256   But we will use our news-gathering as a resource for the third-language programming and we will require that our producers access our centralized news-gathering to share the top local stories. That way the market as a whole will have access to all the news.

13257   It will save them money, expand what they can give their audience and protect our brand that is a Markham-York radio service. It is a win-win. But just to reiterate, whatever we provide by way of news and information will be delivered in the third language of the program.

13258   We brought forward an application that provides optimum use of this frequency. The program we are offering serves the entire market in English and in major third languages in the area.

13259   Our transmitting power is the maximum allowed for this frequency, ensuring everyone in the area can receive our signal.

13260   Attached Appendix "A" provides information on estimates of the population size within each service contour.

13261   Markham-York radio will serve a much larger population and cover an area that is over three times that of CJVF. Where CJVF is licensed to serve three communities, Tamil, Punjabi, Tagalog, it plans to provide a minimum of 90 percent of its programming in these three languages.

13262   However, it should be noted that due to conditions of its licence, its programming can be in one primary language. 89.5 percent of its programming can be in the Tamil language only, and .05 percent need be in Punjabi and Tagalog to meet its condition of licence.

13263   Considering that 10 percent of English programming would target the Tamil community, this would translate into 99.5 percent of the airtime to one community. Therefore, this frequency is entirely for one community with a population in its licensed area of Scarborough being 12,140 of ethnic origin. That's according to Stats Canada 2006. This is clearly not the best use of this frequency.

13264   Markham-York Radio by contrast will provide 100 percent local programming, 35 percent Canadian music content, of which 10 percent is for local emerging artists, and $60,000 in CCD contributions. Our application far exceeds theirs in all areas of programming, financial investment, new job creation, service to all age groups and communities which are served in the area.

13265   MR. BOLA: As required by Industry Canada procedures, on March 7, 2012, we notified Mr. Frank Rogers, agent for CJVF, that we have applied for a new protected Class A assignment on 105.9. We suggested a few alternative frequencies that he could consider: 106.1 FM, 1480 AM.

13266   In addition, at our own expense, we searched the GTA market for alternative frequencies. We were able to identify six other second adjacent frequencies for the Scarborough area and three AM frequencies that are vacant: 1480, 1350 and 1390 AM. All of these frequencies are ideally suited for low-power use.

13267   The second adjacent frequencies are widely utilized in Canada where new frequencies are not available in areas such as Toronto, 7; Ottawa 2; Montreal 3. There are 6 second adjacent frequencies that have been identified. It requires the cooperation of third parties, but regardless should be considered a viable option with the three vacant AM frequencies.

13268   We have attached Appendix B, co-channel, low-power option on 102.7 FM, which can be used as our alternative frequency, avoiding any interruptions to the CJVF service.

13269   We know that the 1480 AM frequency had been previously applied for in Toronto for 1000 watts. As can be seen from the public filing, the 1480 frequency is much better suited for the area of Scarborough and Toronto than Markham since in Markham it can only be used as a daytime frequency.

13270   Given this would ensure protection of CJVF and prevent this type of challenge to their broadcast assignment from happening in the future, it seems wise to do this now. We have done our part to help out.

13271   For the Commission's reference, we have provided a few decisions related to low-power services.

13272   In the last Toronto public hearing on September 17, 2002, at which the CRTC licensed 1610 AM to San Lorenzo Latin American Community Centre, the existing low-power operator BVF was required to vacate the frequency under Industry Canada procedures.

13273   In conclusion, our application was misunderstood by many of our opposing interveners with respect to our program format and coverage. Many of the interveners did not read the whole application and this created confusion, leading interventions to be filed.

13274   Interveners that had read the whole application provided positive comments, recognizing the program format proposed, understanding that the coverage area is primarily the Markham area, with no signal into Toronto, Etobicoke, Mississauga, Oakville, Brampton, Rexdale, Downsview, Woodbridge and so on, like other radio stations that cover most of the GTA market. In fact, the Markham area is only about 80 percent of the GTA market, therefore not directly competitive with any station that is GTA-based.

13275   No mainstream radio stations filed interventions against our application and had other ethnic stations seen our coverage map and our programming format, which is 100 percent local, they may have not filed any interventions either as our service has no impact on any existing services.

13276   Thank you for your time and attention. We would be happy to address any questions you may have.

13277   THE CHAIRPERSON: It's not a question I have, it's a comment that I have, Mr. Bola.

13278   On page 4 you cited some new information regarding a discussion you had with Mr. Frank Rogers and you suggested certain alternatives are available. This is new information that you did not present during your application and these parties did not have a chance to comment and I will not bring them back to comment on this, so I must strike this from the record.

13279   MR. BOLA: The information with regards to 106.1 FM and 1480 AM, that was filed in our written intervention.

13280   THE CHAIRPERSON: To the extent that it was filed it will be accepted, but anything else that's in here that is new with regard to you notified, you met with, you talked about, I don't want to hear from them that we did or did not --

13281   MR. BOLA: I understand.

13282   THE CHAIRPERSON: So all those issues are off the record, just so you are aware.

13283   MR. BOLA: Okay. I understand. Thank you.

13284   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay?

13285   Any other questions?

13286   Thank you very much for your appearance here today.

13287   MR. BOLA: Thank you.

13288   THE SECRETARY: Thank you very much.

13289   I will now invite the next presenters, Michael Wekerle OBCI.

--- Pause

13290   THE SECRETARY: Are we ready?

13291   MR. WEKERLE: Yes.

13292   THE SECRETARY: Please reintroduce yourselves for the record. You have 10 minutes.

REPLY

13293   MR. WEKERLE: Great, thank you. Thank you.

13294   Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, Commission staff, my name is Michael Wekerle, and with me today are Paul Sparkes and Debra Mclaughlin.

13295   We have listened carefully to all of the presentations and the Commission's questioning of the applicants throughout this hearing. We would like to take this opportunity to briefly reply to some of the recurring themes that have dominated the debate around which applicants should be granted the last viable commercial frequency in Canada's largest market.

13296   Throughout the hearing concerns have been raised about the ability of a new entrant standalone operator to compete in the Toronto radio market. The presumption seems to be that the market is just too large and much too competitive for a new player to succeed here.

13297   We respectfully disagree. In our view, Toronto is an essential cornerstone market for a well-financed independent operator with a multimarket growth plan. Without access to Toronto and Toronto radio revenue and its audiences, it will be challenging for a new independent operator to roll out a viable growth plan, be it by acquisition or application, in markets across the country.

13298   As you heard in our presentation, our plan is to become a new independent radio voice in markets across Canada. Toronto is the first and by far the most important element in our growth strategy. Without Toronto we will be at a disadvantage relative to the multistation vertically integrated operators that currently dominate the radio landscape in this city.

13299   So in our view, the question is not can you compete in Toronto, but rather how can an independent new voice be heard without a presence in Canada's largest city?

13300   MR. SPARKES: We have also heard a lot about which demographic group is underserved, a fair question given that the result of this hearing will be to allocate the last remaining frequency with a signal large enough to support a commercial station.

13301   During the hearing it has been contended by some that our broad target audience is already well served and therefore the Commission should look to other demographic groups in awarding the frequencies, such as the 65-and-over crowd to the youth demo.

13302   MS McLAUGHLIN: We have looked at the numbers and here is what they show. Toronto has a population in excess of 5.1 million people and according to the only Stats Can data available 39 percent of this group, or 2 million people, fall into the 25-49-year-old age group.

13303   This demographic segment is by far the single largest population group in Toronto. No other demo even comes close. This group alone is larger than the total population of many Canadian cities.

13304   Tuning in this core demo is on the decline in Toronto, while tuning in the over-65 and youth demos is on the rise. The result is that the largest population group, 25-49-year-olds, who are typically the heaviest users of radio, are turning away from Toronto radio.

13305   In these circumstances the last frequency is best utilized by licensing the applicant that proposes to increase tuning among the largest segment of the population, and we believe our proposal does just that.

13306   MR. SPARKES: Much of the debate at the hearing has been about bringing listeners back to radio. This is a legitimate concern in our view and in our view it starts by providing the largest and most dissatisfied population group with the one format that is so clearly missing in the market: AAA.

13307   But in focusing on how we bring listeners back to radio, we should not lose sight of how we bring Canadian artists back to radio was well. After all, this is one of the key objectives of the Broadcasting Act.

13308   Of all the applicants that have come before you, our application stands above the rest in that regard. We have made an unqualified commitment to Canadian content of 45 percent throughout the broadcast day and week and are prepared to accept this as a COL.

13309   We have made our commitment to airplay for Canadian new and emerging artists, representing 50 percent of our Cancon or 22.5 percent of our playlist, and we have put forward a format that can support these commitments over the long term.

13310   Our application will bring Canadian artists back to radio and give them the exposure they deserve on Canada's largest stage.

13311   MR. WEKERLE: Finally, I would like to respond briefly to Mr. Torres' claims in his appearance this morning.

13312   There is no uncertainty as to ownership or my commitment to this venture. I own 100 percent of this application and I have committed $10 million of my own capital to see this station through to profitability.

13313   As for Stingray, we have advised the Commission that they have an option to acquire nonvoting shares should this application be approved. The option has not been exercised, and even if it is, it will not affect the basis upon which this application has been filed. I will still own the voting shares and control the licence, just as I have from the beginning.

13314   To build on the Olympic analogy that was discussed with Commissioner Poirier when we first appeared, what Toronto needs is a fresh set of legs, a willingness to come to the starting line with the desire to win. Let's try to get across the finish line first.

13315   We have the resources to compete, the cash to finance and a plan to be a sustainable new voice that is so desperately needed here. I believe that an AAA format is the best use of the last FM frequency.

13316   I believe that a passionate Torontonian who historically and currently listens to over 25 hours per week of various existing stations in Toronto is the Commission's best choice to deliver a new voice, a new format, a new and diverse audience, and a new Canadian business ready to run the marathon, not a sprint.

13317   Chairman, Vice-Chair, Commissioners, staff, merci. Thank you.

13318   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

13319   Are there any questions? No.

13320   Thank you very much for your appearance here.

13321   MR. WEKERLE: Thank you.

13322   THE SECRETARY: Thank you very much.

13323   I will now invite Larche Communications to come forward to the presentation table, please.

--- Pause

13324   THE SECRETARY: All right, Mr. Larche, you may now proceed with your 10-minute presentation.

REPLY

13325   MR. LARCHE: Thank you very much.

13326   I will just reintroduce myself. My name is Paul Larche, I am the owner of Larche Communications Inc., and to my right is Mora Austin, who is Vice-President of our company.

13327   I will let Mora start off.

13328   MS AUSTIN: Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, thank you for the opportunity to thank the positive interventions that have been submitted in response to our application. You heard from several mayors, MPs and MPPs from all the cities and neighbouring communities that we serve and their sincere appreciation and acknowledgment of what we do for our communities.

13329   You also heard from several community leaders. These interveners share the same refrain: our stations are excellent corporate citizens, they give back to the community, and the people of Toronto will benefit greatly from our arrival.

13330   We also want to thank the hundreds of people who intervened on our behalf through the Metro 88.1 Web site and who liked us on Facebook.

13331   We do want to acknowledge our CCD partners through their support interventions, including the Canadian Comedy Foundation for Excellence and Yuk Yuk's, who took the time to appear before you last week: the Canadian Independent Music Association, Music Ontario, Canadian Music Week, North by Northeast Festival and the Live Green Toronto Festival.

13332   Paul...?

13333   MR. LARCHE: Thanks, Mora.

13334   Regarding the negative interventions, there were detractors for just about every format and proposal during interventions heard during Phase II, which is of course to be expected.

13335   We believe that our application and presentation does speak for itself, but we would just like to add a few comments to clarify some statements.

13336   First, the notion that AAA as a format is wrong for tomorrow because it's struggling in other markets. We have heard that reoccurring theme in some interventions.

13337   Just because a format doesn't work in one market does not mean that it is going to fail in another, first of all. As we mentioned during our presentation to you, which seems like an eternity ago, last week, you know, we thought that Country was the hole, Country as a format was the hole. It's one of the most popular formats in Canada and we are experts in Country. Yet, it did not resonate with potential listeners within the reliable footprint of the signal. A rock-based AAA did resonate.

13338   Some interveners have also pointed out that Vancouver, as an example, is struggling with AAA. Well, I'm not sure if they're looking at the same numbers I am, but it should be noted that the two AAA stations in Vancouver, if you put their share together it's over a 5 share with listeners 25 to 54, which is, you know, an important demo for a commercial radio station.

13339   Well we, along with I'm sure many of the other applicants here today, would be thrilled to have a 5 share 25-54. You know, we are proposing half of that.

13340   Finally, there's four -- you could maybe even argue five -- variations of the AAA format that are in front of you. That can't be coincidence. You don't have variations, several variations of blues or other types of formats to back it up. Again, it just can't be coincidence. We didn't talk to these people before we applied.

13341   Some interveners have lumped us in with all the AAA applicants as well, and I just would like to point out that I believe that we are not the same. We are offering innovation through a unique mix of comedy and interactivity and all the other benefits that come with AAA, including 24 hours of spoken word.

13342   Also, based on some interventions I just about feel that I have to defend our "high CCD." Commissioners, after these two weeks I maintain that our business plan remains the most realistic of all the applicants.

13343   If you take into consideration the signal limitations, the inherent challenges of a standalone operation, the expectations for audience levels and revenues that we put forth are built on sound business models.

13344   We want to make Toronto a better place to live. We want to make a positive difference in Torontonians' lives, much like we have done in our other markets. I just hope that we have demonstrated that we have the experience and the people to make Metro 88.1 a first-class radio operation that would make all of you proud.

13345   I do want to take this opportunity to thank you for your consideration in this application along with the entire staff. They have been terrific to work with. We have truly enjoyed the experience.

13346   I also really want to acknowledge my respect and admiration for many of the applicants that have come before you. There has been some outstanding applications and plans. As I said last week, before I heard all of them I don't envy you. I even don't envy you even more now.

13347   That didn't come out right, but I think you know what I mean. There has been some terrific plans out there and I think that it speaks well to our industry.

13348   The process we have gone through is envied around the world. It ensures that the Canadian people always get the absolute best they can out of the airwaves. It's really a privilege for us to be part of that process.

13349   We thank you, and we would be happy to answer any questions if you have any. Thank you.

13350   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Anybody have any clarifications -- no?

13351   Thank you very much for appearing.

--- Pause

13352   THE SECRETARY: Thank you very much.

13353   I will now turn to Newcap Inc. to present their reply. They will be the last presenters today.

--- Pause

13354   THE SECRETARY: Please introduce yourselves for the record. You have 10 minutes as well.

REPLY

13355   MR. MURRAY: Thank you. Good afternoon.

13356   Chairman and Commissioners, I'm David Murray, Chief Operating Officer of Newcap Radio. With me today are John Steele, Scott Broderick and Steven Jones.

13357   First of all, we would like to thank those who wrote you in support of our application.

13358   Next, we would like to address the opposing interventions from competing applicants. There are two main points in our application that had been questioned, our business plan and our CCD commitment.

13359   MR. J. STEELE: Earlier in this hearing Commissioner Poirier used an analogy that stuck with me as the various applicants appear before you.

13360   Madam Poirier suggested that launching a radio station in Toronto is like running the Olympic marathon and the successful applicant must have the training, the coaching, the funding and most importantly, the experience to run a long and difficult race.

13361   Newcap Radio is that company.

13362   To take the marathon analogy a step further, at Newcap Radio we just completed our 26th year or mile of service. It was 1985 when we acquired an underperforming AM radio station in Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island.

13363   We invested in and served the community but lost money for a decade before we turned that station around.

13364   We next purchased radio stations in Halifax in 1987 and although that investment also took 10 years to make a reasonable return, we never stopped serving.

13365   In 1990 we bought a group of 11 radio stations in Newfoundland and Labrador for one million dollars. CHUM practically gave them to us. However, we had to invest an additional $17 million in capital and operating losses until we finally broke even 10 years later.

13366   Today, Newcap has 83 licenses and competes successfully against multibillion dollar corporations with seemingly unlimited resources like Bell, Astral, Rogers and Corus.

13367   The industry uses a monthly report called TRAM which is an acronym for Transcanada Radio Advertising by Market to measure radio advertising in Canada's 16th largest markets. The chart provided compares Newcap's performance with that of all reporting stations.

13368   It illustrates that Newcap outperformed the industry by 29 percent over the past four years. Those who question our business plan are unaware of our track record of success in markets of all sizes.

13369   We have always had a vision of serving Toronto. We have applied here twice before, in 1997 and 2000.

13370   And today, more than any applicant before you, Newcap Radio is prepared for the massive challenge of launching a new standalone FM station in Canada's most competitive market.

13371   We believe our business plan is conservative and our research is accurate. However, if you have any doubts in our revenue or ratings projections, you can trust that our commitment to $12 million in CCD, 40 percent Canadian content and 15 percent emerging artists is absolute.

13372   MR. MURRAY: Our $12 million CCD commitment is the largest talent development undertaking by far of any applicant at this hearing. The size of our CCD commitment has been called into question by numerous applicants.

13373   No doubt $12 million looks like a large number but only when compared to the other applicants for this frequency. In past major market hearings like Vancouver and Calgary, CCD commitments in this range were common.

13374   When building our application we felt that the $12 million would likely put us in the middle of the pack. We make no apologies for doing what is right for Canadian artists.

13375   One of the newer applicants suggested that when it comes to CCD broadcasters often promise very high and then live to regret it. That is certainly not true of Newcap Radio. We have absolutely no regret when it comes to our very significant CCD contributions.

13376   In Ottawa alone we have invested $10 million in CCD, and we have no regrets. That market has 31 licences and Newcap has two of the top-rated stations including one with a limited signal reaching only 70 percent of the available population.

13377   Ottawa is our most successful operation from a ratings, revenue and profitability standpoint and while proudly honouring every penny of our $10 million in CCD.

13378   Another applicant mentioned that they wished to be judged based on merit, not millions. We agree.

13379   We also believe in the merit system and we believe that Newcap Radio can stand on its own merits more so than any other applicant before you.

13380   This is a radio licence. We are a radio-only company. We are Canada's largest radio-only company. Radio is what we do and as such we understand that you can only be as successful as a radio company if you show up to serve every day.

13381   We serve the communities in which we live, large and small.

13382   We serve our listeners and our advertisers.

13383   We serve our employees and our shareholders.

13384   We understand that we are here to serve but we also understand that before you serve you must first survive.

13385   We have survived. We have survived the challenges of turning around money-losing radio stations in markets of all sizes from Charlottetown to Calgary.

13386   We have even survived the complete destruction of our radio station at Slave Lake during last year's wild fires. Despite the fact that our station and one-third of the town was burned to the ground we were back on the air within 48 hours, as evacuees returned to the community the radio station was on the air to serve them.

13387   We have survived and we are here to serve.

13388   We are before you once again asking for the opportunity to serve Canada's largest and most culturally-significant market. We are ready to run this marathon.

13389   Newcap Radio is the only applicant at this hearing who fully understands the scope of this challenge and has the experience and resources required to compete at this level.

13390   Thank you, Commissioners, and staff for an efficient and fair hearing. I'm sure all of you will be grateful to get home a day early.

13391   The end.

--- Laughter

13392   THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I'm not sure we are going home tomorrow but, anyway, thank you for those kind wishes.

13393   Any other questions?

13394   COMMISSIONER PENTEFOUNTAS: Yeah.

13395   Just briefly, Ottawa is the second-biggest market you are serving after Calgary?

13396   MR. MURRAY: (Off microphone / Sans microphone)

13397   COMMISSIONER PENTEFOUNTAS: Thank you.

13398   THE CHAIRPERSON: Any other questions?

13399   MR. MURRAY: Yes.

13400   THE CHAIRPERSON: That concludes Phase III. I return to legal counsel to see if there is any outstanding issues that we need --

13401   THE SECRETARY: It concludes Phase IV, Mr. Chairman.

13402   THE CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Phase IV. Sorry.

13403   No...?

13404   MS HULLEY: No outstanding issues.

13405   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

13406   Madam Secretary, have you got any follow-up statements?

13407   THE SECRETARY: Yes, I would just like to indicate for the record that interveners who did not appear who were listed on the Agenda as appearing interveners will remain on the public file as non-appearing intervention.

13408   Also, there were seven non-appearing applications on the Agenda of this public hearing. Interventions were received on some of these applications. The Panel will consider these interventions along with the applications and a decision will be rendered at a later date.

13409   This completes the Agenda, Mr. Chairman, of this hearing.

13410   THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I have got some concluding remarks.

13411   First of all, I would like to thank, on behalf of all the Panel here, Commissioners, the staff that have worked so diligently during this process.

13412   I want to thank the transcript reporter who sat through this stuff and put together the materials that were needed as well.

13413   I want to thank all the applicants, the interveners, the support staff.

13414   Et j'aimerais remercier les intervenants et les demandeurs qui ont comparu en appui aux services radiophoniques de langue française.

13415   And I also want to thank my fellow Commissioners for being patient and diligent as well as we processed this to this stage.

13416   We hope to get a decision out in the earliest possible timeframe.

13417   Thank you very much, and that concludes the proceedings.

--- Whereupon the hearing concluded at 1748


REPORTERS

Benjamin LaFrance

Jean Desaulniers

Karen Paré

Sue Villeneuve

Monique Mahoney