Transcript, Hearing January 20, 2017

Volume: 5
Location: Gatineau, Quebec
Date: January 20, 2017
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Attendees and Location

Held at:

Terrasses de la Chaudière
Gatineau, Quebec
Commission Headquarters



Gatineau, Quebec

--- Upon commencing on Friday, January 20, 2017 at 8:32 a.m.

5495 THE SECRETARY: Please take your seats.

5496 THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. A l’ordre s’il vous plaît.

5497 Madame la secrétaire.

5498 THE SECRETARY: Thank you and good morning.

5499 We’ll now hear the presentation of Group of PSAPs, including TPS. Please introduce yourself and your colleagues and you have 20 minutes for your presentation.


5500 MS. FINN: Thank you, Madam Secretary.

5501 Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Vice-Chairman, Commissioners, and Commission staff. My name is Tracy Finn and I’m the 9-1-1 coordinator for the Toronto Police Service. I’m very honoured to be before you today representing the Toronto Police Service with the support of the 42 PSAPs you’ll see listed on your screen. Oh, here we go. Oh, there we go.

5502 I’m joined today, on my right, by Acting Deputy Chief, Richard Stubbings, and on my left, Manager, Mr. Dion Evelyn.

5503 I’d also like to note that although the Ontario Provincial Police has submitted their own contribution, which is very much in line with that of the Toronto Police and the joint PSAPs, the have elected to attend today in support of this presentation, since we do wish to reinforce a lot of the same positions.

5504 Currently the quickest way to reach emergency services is by dialling 9-1-1.

5505 Dialling 9-1-1 is designed to connect the public to police, fire, or ambulance services to provide emergency first response. During a life-threatening emergency, seconds count.

5506 Every moment a PSAP spends attempting to obtain critical information means a delay in emergency response.

5507 The PSAP mandate is to receive the 9-1-1 call and quickly and efficiently determine which emergency service the caller requires in order to dispatch emergency services.

5508 Regardless of the method that the public uses to request emergency response, it is imperative that the minimum mandatory PSAP requirements are implemented with any new technology.

5509 Today, the only way to reach 9-1-1 in Canada is by placing a voice call. PSAPs understand that new methods of communication will become available in a 9-1-1 environment and that the “call” for service may not only be received by voice going forward.

5510 In order to meet our mandate, the following minimum mandatory PSAP requirements must be met in order to ensure public and emergency responder safety. These minimum mandatory requirements include accurate location information that’s GPS X, Y, and at some point possibly Z coordinates; accurate call routing to the appropriate primary PSAP along with secondary PSAP agency information which is normally contained in the Emergency Service Number or the ESN; the identification of the service provider; class of service indicators; a valid callback number or a means of communicating with the call, which may include type Of device, for example a 9-1-1 app or WiFi calling; cell tower location; or WiFi router location if they’re using IP.

5511 In addition, supplementary information such as subscriber information including billing name, address, and alternate phone number if provided, would greatly enhance that emergency response.

5512 This would minimize time spent by a PSAP attempting to obtain the critical information required to dispatch emergency services.

5513 Accurate caller information, subscriber information, and the XY coordinates are valuable and essential pieces of information required by the PSAP. When this information is not presented to the PSAP at the time of a 9-1-1 call, additional time -- sometimes two minutes or more -- can be spent contacting the ILEC and/or the correct service provider for any additional contact or location information. This, of course, delays emergency response.

5514 It’s not enough to have customer-provided addresses available to the PSAP. Any address information should go through a validation process by the service providers to ensure efficient call routing to the correct PSAP.

5515 The address information must be current, complete, and accurate, particularly when a call is being routed by a third-party operator. This will become even more important when routing a 9-1-1 call between non-bordering PSAPs or between provincial ILECs to ensure that the caller information is delivered with any 9-1-1 transfer.

5516 Having all pertinent and additional information provided at the time of a call would not only add efficiencies to the calltaking or life-saving process, but could be a cost-saving measure for not only the PSAPs but also to the service providers who must staff their call centres 24/7 to meet the large number of requests for additional caller and location information received daily from PSAPs.

5517 There are many next-generation 9-1-1 options being explored when it comes to delivering 9-1-1 services to the public.

5518 One of concern for PSAPs is the delivery of pictures and videos. Although pictures and videos may be useful to the responding agencies, they are not a mandatory requirement. They may be of value to an investigation, but are not required when initiating an emergency response, and in fact, may slow down the process altogether. Call takers do not have time to watch a video or view a photo.

5519 Information such as pictures and videos should not be the only means of contacting 9-1-1. And by this I mean that a photo or video should not be delivered direct to the PSAP without another supporting method of communication, be it voice or text message. They should be considered supplemental information that should never be automatically pushed to a call taker but rather, available upon request.

5520 Pictures and videos sent to the PSAP could expose communicators, both call takers and dispatchers, to graphic and disturbing content. Filtering through pictures and videos is not part of a communicator’s responsibilities. The effects of viewing these pictures and videos could potentially have a devastating effect on the communicator.

5521 Communicator training and support must be also taken into account when implementing any new features or service.

5522 Currently there is no national coordination or governance to support all aspects of next-generation 9-1-1. Governance, legislation, policies, and best practices vary greatly from one province to another.

5523 There is a significant gap between the coordination and standardization of 9-1-1 services that must be addressed, including technical mandatory PSAP requirements, answering efficiencies, and standard operating procedures.

5524 Currently, at a national level, the CRTC Emergency Services Working Group advises and guides technical aspects of 9-1-1 and future next-generation 9-1-1 standards. At a PSAP level, it is largely a group of volunteers from provincial, territorial, and municipal PSAPs, along with the 9-1-1 service providers, working together to ensure a consistent, reliable 9-1-1 service for Canadians.

5525 PSAPS across Canada are advocating for a national PSAP coordination that would ensure continued effective 9-1-1 delivery in Canada that would look beyond technical aspects of the 9-1-1 delivery to also include legislative models to ensure a consistent standard of service.

5526 In provinces where there is a lack of provincial or municipal 9-1-1 legislation regarding funding, primary PSAPs are typically funded by the regional or municipal tax base.

5527 Currently, PSAPS in Ontario and Manitoba, for example, do not receive any funding for 9-1-1 services. There is also no disbursement of 9-1-1 fees collected by service providers. These fees are not shared with PSAPs nor do they contribute to their operating costs.

5528 A key requirement for assessing 9-1-1 funding is to establish provincial and national guidelines on where the funding should come from, how it should be dispersed, and to establish standards of service.

5529 We believe that the current structure of service providers assuming the responsibility of costs for network infrastructure up to the demarcation point, should continue and PSAPs should not bear the financial cost of next-generation 9-1-1 network services and components.

5530 Future implementation of new communication methods must be coordinated with a systematic rollout to ensure public safety is always taken into account to eliminate jurisdictional challenges.

5531 A coordinated rollout must also take into account that national governance is required to ensure all PSAPs are prepared for any future next-gen implementation. This rollout must take into account the varying degrees of PSAP readiness provincially and/or nationally.

5532 It is important that all information received can be downstreamed from the primary PSAP to the secondary PSAP.

5533 Future services must be coordinated between the primary and secondaries as the primary may not be equipped to support the additional workload for calls that are unable to be downstreamed to an unequipped secondary that has not completed their technical upgrades.

5534 This was a challenge that was identified by PSAPs with the rollout of the T9-1-1 service and it still exists today.

5535 PSAPs support a 9-1-1 network that has a regional primary point of contact in the event of technical issues. PSAP reporting processes must be accurate and consistent in order to mitigate delays.

5536 Currently, PSAPs work in partnership with their ILEC to identify and resolve technical issues and believe that the current ILEC structure should remain. PSAPs do not support a regional multi-level ILEC system with multiple points of contact. This would delay the reporting process and impede trouble shooting and service restoration.

5537 When a 9-1-1 call is unable to be routed with all pertinent information, an operator service is used to deliver the call. The operator service relies on customer-provided information that can be out of date and/or incomplete.

5538 The PSAPs do not support an operator service-type system to deliver all 9-1-1 calls across the country. This is unreasonable in the PSAP view, and sets 9-1-1 service delivery back decades, since no caller or location information would be provided with the call. It would also add an additional delay to the call handling and emergency response times due to the call transfer required from the operator service to the PSAP. This is experienced with nomadic VoIP calls today.

5539 Canadians have come to rely on calling 9-1-1 in an emergency. Oftentimes, the public believe that when they call 9-1-1, their address and telephone number are automatically presented to the call taker. They also expect that when they dial 9-1-1, that PSAPs know exactly where they are.

5540 Most Canadians are not aware of the many technological, geographical, financial, or legislative challenges faced by PSAPs, nor are they cognizant that service delivery may be different from one PSAP to another, one province to another.

5541 The truth of the matter is they may not know how 9-1-1 works, but they expect immediate emergency response in their time of need.

5542 Although PSAPs support technological advancements, they must, under no circumstance, delay emergency response. Any delay in service delivery could potentially jeopardize public safety. Due diligence, planning, and foresight is required to mitigate any risk associated with the implementation of any new method of communication.

5543 It is imperative that the new next-generation 9-1-1 services do not result in a downgrade of 9-1-1 service in comparison to the current level of service citizens across Canada have come to expect, and rely on.

5544 PSAPs recognize the need for technological advancement and understand the public’s desire for the latest technologies, but we need to be cognizant to how this will affect 9-1-1 services.

5545 The public expects that when they dial 9-1-1 that PSAPs know exactly where they are; however, current technology does not always provide reliable, accurate location information. While advances have been made with location accuracy, further enhancements to technology are still required.

5546 PSAPs respectfully submit that the Commission mandate service providers to ensure that minimum mandatory PSAP requirements are included with any new feature or service introduction. Public safety is paramount and must always be the primary consideration when implementing any new service. Anything less may jeopardize emergency response and public safety. When time is of the essence, every second counts.

5547 Thank you and we welcome your questions.

5548 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, thank you very much for that presentation, and I'm going to start off the questioning and off that last point you made where, you know, saying public safety is paramount. And I'll do this by a little bit of a preamble, and -- because you've obviously followed the proceeding and the discussions this week, and there seems to be a clash of visions as to the way forward in terms of some of the larger architectural pieces, as to who should be responsible for the network component.

5549 And it's a gross simplification, but you know, 9-1-1 requires that telecommunication network aspect to it, which I think everyone would agree is under our oversight, and then there are the functionalities of the PSAPs, the first responders, and it's more to -- that's where the public safety aspect of it grows.

5550 And I've been struck all along this week that those people of -- that normally operate in our world, the telecommunication world, are coming to this hearing and advocating that although we've had 40 years of success with the ILEC-delivered model, current philosophies, trends, policies in telecommunications is towards a more competitive model and therefore would should go towards a notion of abandoning the ILEC-delivered model and go towards a consortium that would do a RFP/RFI.

5551 The other world, the world of PSAPs and public security, seem to be taking a different perspective, and I guess this is the biggest question in this hearing. And if public safety is paramount, which seems reasonable, if I would ask you what is the best way forward, is it an ILEC-delivered model or is it a consortium, national consortium with RFIs, RFPs, as Shaw and Videotron and Freedom and some others have advocated?

5552 MS. FINN: So I think in the PSAP views, we do prefer the ILEC model and we could appreciate there are a couple of ILECs across the country and interoperability between them is key. I would agree with some of the other submissions -- Bell, for example -- that RFPs and RFIs and all of those things add a significant delay and a lot of barriers and challenges that may not be inherent with a smoother migration.

5553 At the end of the day, I mean, it's not for PSAPs to say how the network components should be put together, but we do see value in those relationships and maintaining the expectations. These ILECs have been service providers for many years. They understand the security requirements and many things that are challenging to interconnect with PSAPs, so it's a model that, at this point, seems like the most logical, most comfortable fit.

5554 THE CHAIRMAN: Is it just a question of comfort, because in the end, Canadians -- and I look to you and other people on the, you know, the front lines -- the first responders, the PSAPs, the people that are actually dealing with the public safety -- to help guide our reflection.

5555 And of course, in any potential change, you're more comfortable with the people you know and all that. But it seems to me that Canadians would expect -- and you've argued it in your presentation today -- that whatever next-generation looks like, it must not lower the bar in terms of citizens' expectations in terms of safety and response.

5556 So I can appreciate that when you have historically had comfortable, knowledgeable, there are networks, there are people you get to know that might even, you know, flow beyond just being acquaintances and becoming friends, that there is more comfort continuing the 40-year-old ILEC model. But I think more importantly, when we come to this analysis from a rational perspective as a decision body evidence base, beyond the comfort of dealing with people that you’ve dealt with for 40 years, what is the best way to ensure public safety, because you've said it's paramount.

5557 MS. FINN: So I guess I would submit that these ILECs do understand what is best for public safety because they’ve been delivering that component with the 9-1-1 networks going forward. Certainly open to the fact that other carriers or other entities could offer a reliable service, but these are entities that have understood the paramount necessities for keeping their systems up and running for many, many years.

5558 And I think it goes -- comfort may not have been the right choice. It's not so much about acquaintances or friendships, but you know, we know when we pick up, it's one phone call, and we get what we need resolved. We don’t have to get into a finger-pointing, well, this part's not ours. This part belongs to X Company.

5559 So having that one-stop shop to take care of everything and understanding the importance of this is a 9-1-1 service, it can't be out, it can't be down. And the level of redundancies, I think that's the type of comfort that we're talking about.

5560 THE CHAIRMAN: So when push comes to shove, you think from a reliability, security, mission-critical delivery perspective, that we should follow on the side of building on a more traditional ILEC-delivered model?

5561 MS. FINN: I think from a technical -- from my technical knowledge -- and I'm certainly not technical -- that I believe that that is the model that would work best.

5562 THE CHAIRMAN: You mentioned -- and I go back to, you know, there's two worlds here; there's the network aspect and the PSAP aspect. And certainly, we've heard throughout the week and throughout the proceeding how the ESWG -- the Emergency Services Working Group -- has provided a constructive venue for coordination, I guess, of the network side of things.

5563 There would appear that the experience on the other side, that is the PSAP world, the emergency responder part of the world, is uneven. Particularly if you look across the country, you’ve got some consolidation occurring in British Columbia; in some places there’s provincial governments that have focused and done some legislation, the funding is thought out. But it’s really -- it’s a bit of a dog’s breakfast.

5564 And the tendency I’ve heard in this hearing is sometimes perhaps to bring some of the PSAP security issues, the second world, into the ESWG world, which is really not our responsibility. I mean, it’s not that we don’t care; it’s just jurisdictionally it’s different.

5565 And I was wondering if you can help us define the way forward? Because if it’s a time of change, here’s an opportunity to do better on the other side and maybe we have a role to play in nudging people along to deal with it.

5566 Some have suggested that we should have a national operator. Do you think that’s a way forward?

5567 MS. FINN: I don’t think that that’s necessarily the way forward. A national operator would require probably multiple points of transfer to get calls from wherever that national operator would be located to whatever jurisdiction required the emergency response. I think that builds in inherent delays to call-handling process.

5568 I think that PSAP models, similar to what we have -- and you refer to consolidation -- I’m not saying there should or shouldn’t be consolidation -- but that there’s a local flavour and a jurisdictional knowledge that comes with having PSAPs in your province, your city, your jurisdiction, however that’s handled, that you wouldn’t get on a national level.

5569 THE CHAIRMAN: Then how do we then assure coordination not on the network side but on the public safety side? Is it SOREM? Do they have to step up? Is it a temporary task, as some have suggested, for the Emergency Services Working Group? Is it a political solution that I’m not seeing?

5570 MS. FINN: So there’s certain benefits associated with a SOREM model for decision-making and direction for sure. I can’t speak solely on my knowledge of SOREM as being, per se, the best body. But certainly we support some type of a national coordination entity to help get the PSAPs along. I think part of the problem is that there are some PSAPs -- and we participate regularly at ESWG -- but there are many that are not involved in getting that information shared. And more importantly, going forward with the secondary PSAPs that are equally as important as we move to next-generation 9-1-1, there has to be some type of coordination to help move that along.

5571 THE CHAIRMAN: No, that’s precisely it. Help us help to that outcome. You know, the sad thing -- well, it’s not a sad thing -- the reality is that because a lot of Canadians see 9-1-1, until they actually have to use it, monthly on their bills -- they associate it with their telecommunication carrier; they associate it with the CRTC. The fact is, we only have components, a critical component, under our bailiwick. But there’s a lot of other things that need to be done on the other side. And it’s crying for a solution but nobody is stepping up.

5572 MS. FINN: So yeah, I would agree that that’s part of the challenge, is that it is piecemeal.

5573 THE CHAIRMAN: The ministers responsible for municipalities, minister responsible for public security don’t realize that it’s part of their job to worry about these things?

5574 MS. FINN: Well, it’s an interesting question.

5575 THE CHAIRMAN: So what is your view?

5576 MS. FINN: Well, I honestly don’t know. I don’t know what ---

5577 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you just being quiet because, you know, as a quasi-public servant that you have to be careful about criticizing? I mean, you’d think that Canadians would want to hear what an expert like yourself has to say?

5578 MS. FINN: No, certainly I believe somebody has to step up. And whether that is at a municipal level or a provincial level, there needs to be better conversations, bigger conversations, and timely conversations. How we move it along, whether that becomes a provincial-type -- or sorry, a national-type body with provincial representation -- I think most of the provinces do have some type of coordination or legislation which makes it a little bit simpler. Ontario and Manitoba without legislation become a little bit more of a challenge in that aspect. And of course in Ontario we have so many PSAPs and secondary PSAPs it can be, as you said, a dog’s breakfast to try and get everybody in the same ballpark.

5579 So I do some type of body coming together. I just don’t know for sure how I foresee it looking. But I do believe that there should be some government representation, ILEC representation, and PSAP representation in that body.

5580 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you agree with me that there is, however, a vacuum at this point, of leadership?

5581 MS. FINN: I would say that’s a fair statement.

5582 THE CHAIRMAN: Your presentation today, of course, reiterated your position that, you know, before we -- voice remains the best way to communicate. There may be some benefit for going down with the text, but the last thing you want is to be inundated by photos, videos, and blog posts, presumably.

5583 That being said, I would think that 10 years ago nobody -- a transportation regulator would never have thought about, you know, planning ahead for Uber. And so, you know, we have to be thinking about innovations that occur and new things.

5584 So I take it you’re not against the idea of building whatever we need to build to be able to adapt over time to new data points that might -- or might not, we’ll have to see; but let’s not exclude it from the beginning set. Would that be fair?

5585 MS. FINN: Yeah, that’s a fair statement.

5586 THE CHAIRMAN: But down the road we may have to expand the kind of functionalities and data points that would be integrated into the overall architecture of this, which would mean that maybe certain parties that aren’t interconnected now might seek to interconnect. Right now it’s CLECs -- well, ILECs at the base, CLECs, WISPs, PSAPs.

5587 You know, to me you’re here to talk about the public safety component, from a public safety component perspective. Who else should be trusted entities to potentially be added for interconnection purposes and what criteria should we use to do so?

5588 MS. FINN: So we have other trusted partners now that are not interconnected emergency measures and those types of organizations, Poison Control perhaps. But when we’re talking about receiving data, I think that the Emergency Services Working Group and CISC will have to define some clear guidelines for what is required. We just don’t want anybody interconnecting to our networks for any reason. But we’re certainly not opposed to receiving information provided there is useful information. If we’re just getting alarm signals with no valid information, no location, that type of thing, there is no value to receiving any of that without being able to dispatch emergency response.

5589 So we understand that, you know, the potential for telematics or alarms and things down the road could be possible. But there are security considerations and those technical requirements that would have to be met and would be best to design probably at CISC.

5590 THE CHAIRMAN: And that’s a task that needs to be done. And would you agree with others that answered similarly that the analysis you do should be distinguished between those that upload and those that download data points?

5591 MS. FINN: Yes, I would agree.

5592 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. I take it that your point is that the current PSAP/ILEC demarcation point should not be altered?

5593 MS. FINN: Correct.

5594 THE CHAIRMAN: Notwithstanding that, we had evidence presented yesterday by WIND, now Freedom. They suggested that the Commission mandate ILECs to provide only the ESInet core network elements and not include the connections to the primary PSAP as is the case today. Is that were the case -- I’m not saying we’ve decide, but just hypothetically -- would you put the connectivity between PSAPs and that ESInet out to tender? That’s what WIND suggested.

5595 Or would you just turn to the local ILEC in your territory to provide that for you?

5596 MS. FINN: So it will be tough one for me to answer. I'm not -- as again, I don’t have a lot of technical expertise. It would be something, certainly, we would have to take back with our -- discuss with our technical folks. I would think that would be something we would consider with the ILECs, just because of the relationships, but ---

5597 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you agree to take that as an undertaking so you can consult with your -- or is that not going to be constructive, even if you were to do that?

5598 MS. FINN: I would probably submit that, in the timeframe, I'm not sure that it would be -- there would be much of a constructive discussion that could come out of it in a short turnaround.

5599 THE CHAIRMAN: How much more time would you need? Is it a question of a few days or well beyond our timeline?

5600 MS. FINN: A week.

5601 THE CHAIRMAN: An additional week beyond the 24th of ---

5602 MS. FINN: Yes.

5603 THE CHAIRMAN: --- January? So let's say -- is that a weekday, the 30th? Is that -- would that work for you? I mean, I don’t have a calendar in front of me.

5604 MS. FINN: Sure. That will work.

5605 THE CHAIRMAN: That would work? So you could undertake for the 30th?

5606 MS. FINN: Yeah.

5607 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.


5609 THE CHAIRMAN: And would you agree with WIND's position as well that secondary PSAP connectivity would be the responsibility of individual communities under their model and their perspective?

5610 MS. FINN: Well, I think currently, the secondaries, when we're talking about ambulance and fire, they already are a municipal responsibility, so I would agree it would remain the same.

5611 THE CHAIRMAN: Even if the demarcation point were to be changed?

5612 MS. FINN: Well, I don't know about whether -- you know, well, I'm making the assumption that demarcation would remain the same. If it was to change, then ---

5613 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah, that -- my -- the hypothesis to my question assumes that it would change.

5614 MS. FINN: I would think it would still need to be a municipal responsibility.

5615 THE CHAIRMAN: Do your -- the members of your group or it's your experience that most PSAPs have service level agreements in place, and -- well, actually, my real question is, whether you do or you do not, are they useful in a going-forward basis? Should the Commission, in one way or another, encourage their development by either creating models or requiring them, going forward?

5616 MS. FINN: So I do think that they should continue and that there is value in a service level agreement to ensure that the standards for the carriers are being met.

5617 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a role to standardize what -- to create model SLAs? Why are they so widely -- are they widely used currently, in your experience?

5618 MS. FINN: That's not something -- I don't know ---

5619 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.

5620 MS. FINN: --- whether each jurisdiction -- how much weight they would put on them.

5621 THE CHAIRMAN: Nor do you know, then, whether they pretty much all look the same or not; is that correct?

5622 MS. FINN: I wouldn't know that.

5623 THE CHAIRMAN: But you'd still agree that there would be some value in standardizing the ---

5624 MS. FINN: I'm sure that each PSAP would measure, so I'm sure that for whatever they're using those agreements for, those reports for, there would still be consistent -- a need to consistently have that measured.

5625 THE CHAIRMAN: When we go about creating standards, norms, the question then becomes, to what degree do those things get (a) monitored and reported upon, and then should they or should they not be the basis for some enforcement action of one kind or another? Because that's -- I'm still talking of the network world. I'm not talking about the -- but in our network. And I'd like to have your perspective -- again, it's from a public safety perspective.

5626 Do you think that the purpose of an SLA is a continual improvement monitoring of quality objective and that's the outcome, and that there is little purpose to be served in using those standards, their measurement, the monitoring, to go down the road of a -- of some sort of punitive enforcement if they are not met?

5627 MS. FINN: I'm actually not sure how to answer that question. I think that they have to have -- certainly, there has to be some onus on the carriers to want to continue to improve. They shouldn't just be a means to measure status quo. We always want to improve. But if they're falling below, then certainly there should be some type of penalty or something to make them maintain what they -- you know, what the standard is that they must meet.

5628 THE CHAIRMAN: Some parties have suggested the mere reputational harm of not meeting a standard, and that that standard is reported on publicly, is sufficient to focus the mind without necessarily having the sort of pending over their heads of some sort of -- perhaps even a financial monetary fine.

5629 MR. STUBBINGS: I think the framework that you suggest is helpful to move things forward, but some level of accountability, there's some benefit to that. It holds people's in organizations feet to the fire, keeps them on track. You know, when used appropriately under a right system of governance and accountability that's fair. I think there's some benefit to that.

5630 THE CHAIRMAN: And it wouldn't be unique to this particular area. I mean, what the Commission now has under the Telecommunications Act, the power, recent and legislative amendments to do administrative monetary fines, since that's come into force, we haven't really needed to use that authority. But you still think it's useful, the threat of potentially using it is a way of focusing the mind or to use your expression, "putting feet to the fire"?

5631 MR. STUBBINGS: Yeah, I agree. And you know, I think in the public safety environment, we're used to rules, regulations, tribunal processes, and accountabilities. So if that's -- we do believe that that would be helpful to keep everybody on track.

5632 THE CHAIRMAN: Getting back to my original question, if we were going to an architecture based on a new delivery model through an RFI/RFP, would you think -- hypothetically -- I'm not saying we're going that way -- but if we were, that it would become even more important it have standards, monitoring, and consequences for breach?

5633 MR. STUBBINGS: Yeah, along the same line, I agree. I mean, you -- if you do go that route, there has to be accountabilities built into place if people don’t live up to their part of the contract. I think we -- you know, we're -- again, we're talking about public safety here. We can't take public safety for granted and if outside providers step up and they say they can deliver service, I think we have to assure our citizens that they're getting the service.

5634 THE CHAIRMAN: And under that model, do you think the Commission should have oversight, because it's been suggested that if we were to go down the model, not the traditional ILEC-delivered model, but by consortium delivery, that it would be whoever -- well, it's still unclear who would be the tendering party -- that they, under their contractual arrangements with the successful bidder, would do that oversight. But it's not obvious to me, at this point, what the Commission -- what oversight the Commission itself would have.

5635 MS. FINN: So I still -- I believe that the Commission should still have some oversight to some degree, because I still see value in ESWG, even with a consortium model. So I think that there should be some -- perhaps some joint ownership there.

5636 THE CHAIRMAN: And do you have specific views, or perhaps you don’t, as to how that oversight would occur in a consortium model?

5637 MS. FINN: No.

5638 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.

5639 The current standard of performance, which we recently monitored under the current 9-1-1 for 9-1-1 network providers, the norm is an open-textured one that says:

5640 “…to take all reasonable measure to ensure that their 9-1-1 networks are reliable and resilient, to the maximum extent feasible by implementing an adequate combination of certain industry best practices.”

5641 So it's a very fluid, open-textured standard. Do you think that's an appropriate standard in an NG9-1-1 environment?

5642 MS. FINN: I think it works in this current model. I think that with next-gen there may be possibly more points of failure. There may be -- need to be a little bit more rigour behind that. But the reliability and maintaining the same level of standard is paramount.

5643 THE CHAIRMAN: The challenge will be is that we’re all learning together as we transition to the next-generation. So how do we develop standards that are more black and white when we’re all learning together?

5644 MS. FINN: Well, we are learning together and I’m sure that there will be lessons learned, as there is with everything. But this is 9-1-1 and we have to be sure that whatever we’re doing, that the testing and pilots and trials are rigorous so that we’re not falling into a situation where we’re losing 9-1-1 connectivity and then going, “Oh, no, now what do we do?”

5645 There has to be enough rigour prior to a full launch to make sure that we’re meeting those reliabilities.

5646 THE CHAIRMAN: Right. I fully understand that. About 12 months ago I changed my telephone provider and my alarm system became incompatible. I appreciate the frustration. There was no loss of life or property, but there was loss of sleep.

5647 The notion of doing some pilots or tests seems to have come -- I mean, you’re obviously advocating that we should have rigorous tests and pilots. Where and when?

5648 MS. FINN: So that’s a tough question. I suppose at this point, if we’re looking at what’s been talked about, that potentially 2018, 2019 seems to be the timeframes, then certainly that makes logical sense to start piloting some PSAPs. And we’d look at Calgary, for example. They’re farther ahead than other PSAPs. So I think as a result of this hearing a lot more PSAPs will have an understanding of timelines and where they need to go. And we may see more hands coming up to say, “Yes, I’d like to be part of a pilot and go forward.” I think it’s a little premature right now to see how those pilots will look across the country.

5649 THE CHAIRMAN: Fair enough. But when deciding where to pilot -- first of all, would you agree that one might want to pilot in more than one jurisdiction or area?

5650 MS. FINN: I think it’s safe to say that would be best.

5651 THE CHAIRMAN: What are the other characteristics of a place where you would do a pilot that would be worth -- would one have to have a balance of rural and urban? Would it be a place -- you know, I’m not sure exactly what you would want to be -- in terms of your objectives of public safety, what kinds of -- there’s a network component but there’s an on-the-ground component too.

5652 MS. FINN: So I’m by no means volunteering my organization for a pilot because we’re not at that point yet, but certainly in a jurisdiction like Ontario where there are so many more PSAPs and connectivity versus an E-Comm model where they have many agencies in one centre, I think there’s value in seeing how those next-gen features are going to work in a controlled environment versus multiple PSAPs and secondaries interconnecting.

5653 THE CHAIRMAN: Right.

5654 MR. STUBBINGS: Can I add to that too?


5656 MR. STUBBINGS: I think we have to be cognizant, too, in the policing environment. We have other stakeholders and other forums that we’ve confined ourselves in. We have of course staffing infrastructure concerns, funding concerns to even participate in that. But we would want to make sure whatever the environment is that it’s crystal clear and doesn’t create any confusion that a framework for such pilots is clearly articulated. Because as you know, some of the calls that our people end up going to, they result in situations that there’s court processes, there’s inquests, tribunals.

5657 So I just want to bring to the attention of the Commission that it would probably be something that we would really need to consider how to really properly architecturally develop something like that before we would step forward, keeping in consideration all of the other stakeholders that we deal with. And I’m just thinking from the police environment, and I’m sure our paramedic partners and fire partners also would have comment on that as well. Thank you.

5658 THE CHAIRMAN: Presumably one would pilot on a desk exercise before we did real emergencies, however, right?

5659 MR. STUBBINGS: Right, yeah, tabletop, et cetera.

5660 THE CHAIRMAN: Right.

5661 MR. STUBBINGS: But as you know, some things don’t -- tabletop of course is a process to build towards. But until you really get into the reality, other things develop.

5662 And again, thinking about what is at stake -- the lives are stake -- that we would want to be very crystal clear that we have the infrastructures in place and the framework, that we don’t contribute to issues. You know, getting to your earlier comment about -- we’re not afraid to move forward. But we do want to make sure it’s with a measure of caution and measure.

5663 THE CHAIRMAN: Right. So it is an iterative transition.

5664 Do you think that ESWG is well-positioned to define the scope and timing of such pilots?

5665 MS. FINN: I do think that they are. I would respectfully submit that perhaps a little more consideration to PSAP readiness, and I can appreciate that they can’t wait until all the PSAPs across the country are ready. But sometimes PSAP readiness and telephone service provider readiness differs greatly. And there has to be more of a happy medium between that readiness in order to be able to pilot something effectively.

5666 THE CHAIRMAN: But would the Working Group be an appropriate place to balance those competing pressures or not? Or does it have to be at another venue? Or do you feel that the PSAP perspective is not as present in that discussion group?

5667 MS. FINN: I would say being part of ESWG that we’re heard. I don’t know that I necessarily would feel that our timelines are necessarily weighted as greatly as the TSPs. But if we could find a better balance between that I think we would see a little more readiness in a timely manner, cohesively. And again, I’m not saying all across the country at the same time, but perhaps a bigger showing.

5668 And T9-1-1 was a great example of that. It was very piecemealed across the country due to varying states of PSAP readiness. The PSAPs wanted one timeframe. The TSPs requested another. And it did greatly, significantly -- differed significantly, rather. And if we had come closer to the PSAP timelines or met somewhere in the middle, I think we would have seen a greater launch of more PSAPs at one time.

5669 THE CHAIRMAN: And that would have been an advantage from what perspective?

5670 MS. FINN: I think that a greater launch of multiple PSAPs across the country at one time -- again, if you look at the DHHSI community, there may have been a better audience to say, “Wow, it’s not only just available in a small part of B.C.; it’s also available in Calgary and in Ontario at the same time.” So there’s more value; they’re paying closer attention than just one little jurisdiction at a time.

5671 THE CHAIRMAN: In terms of the transition, the common wisdom seems to be percolating, although not universal, that primary PSAPs will have an easier time to adjust to next-generation 9-1-1 and do the transition and that secondary PSAPs may not be, for a number of reasons, as ready or ready as quickly. Would you agree with that?

5672 MS. FINN: I would agree with that. I think inherently secondaries haven’t really had to have -- I don’t want to say pay as much attention, but everything that’s come through the PSAPs has been telephony mostly; there’s been no data exchange or anything that they’ve really had to concern themselves with.

5673 So Text-to-9-1-1 again is a prime example where many secondaries are still not ready. Although they’re on the IP network, they still don’t offer the T9-1-1 service, so the PSAPs are acting as that translator or relay operator for those types of calls. So making sure that our secondaries are involved in these conversations going forward, and putting the focus on PSAPs holistically versus just the primary, I think will help move it along.

5674 THE CHAIRMAN: Is it your view that the major barrier for secondary PSAP readiness is one of capacity or funding?

5675 MS. FINN: Probably a little of both.

5676 THE CHAIRMAN: So 50/50, 60/40, 20/80?

5677 MS. FINN: I’m not sure that I’d be in a position to answer that.

5678 MR. STUBBINGS: In the Province of Ontario there’s 54 police services. So you know, some are contracted; they assume the dispatch capabilities of others through contracts. So as Tracy said, it would be awkward to really speak intelligently and even give you a proper estimate. But I think the general comments she says is understood by me, anyway, that it’s probably a little bit of both capability, staffing, infrastructure budget that they have or don’t have.

5679 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you at least agree that funding would not be an insignificant component?

5680 MS. FINN: Absolutely.

5681 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So because funding will be a consideration, there’s a very likelihood that in the interim -- because there are some PSAPs, primary PSAPs who will want to move on -- that we will go through a gateway structure. And it’s my experience that when you find temporary solutions they become permanent.

5682 Have you given some thought as to how those temporary gateways can over time become the subject of disincentives so that they don’t become a patch and therefore permanent cost-effective for a municipal politician that sees, you know, holes in the streets and leaky water pipes?

5683 MS. FINN: Yeah, I would agree. And I would assume that with gateways at some point they will become, you know, ineffective completely because you’ll have to move beyond that, perhaps, gateway offering at some point you won’t have the connectivity. So I think that they’ll have to look at holistic solutions from the beginning. And that may require, again, the work collectively between PSAPs and secondaries to look at the infrastructures and see what really is required.

5684 And I don’t think the secondaries have been -- I know, in fact, they haven’t been at the table, especially at ESWG -- but the requirement for them to really start to pay attention to these specs. And a lot of these TIFs, as we’re moving forward, will be key for them to understand how they need to get there.

5685 THE CHAIRMAN: Is it your view that local politicians understood, understand, understand well, or don’t understand at all that there will be funding pressure associated with this next-generation?

5686 MR. STUBBINGS: I think there’s a great interest. I can certainly speak from our particular environment they’re asking questions; they’re interested in the future of 9-1-1, next-gen, and what it can do or what it can’t do. But they also appreciate, to some extent -- and I would say all do -- but that there are huge funding pressures. Based on the municipal tax base that right now they’re currently in that position that they have to fund, particularly ours, I think they’re listening. They want more information to make decisions. And again, in our environment it’s our job to bring it to their attention.

5687 And I can assure you that we are doing that in our particular environment and I’m confident that our partners in public safety in Ontario are doing that as well.

5688 So there’s an interest. I don’t know if it’s fully understood what their real -- or when you come into a communications environment and you see the people, the stuff that’s in there and the amount of information that goes through those centre, I’m sure that there would be a lot of eyes open quite widely.

5689 THE CHAIRMAN: You’ve mentioned the Text-to-9-1-1 experience under the current system and some of the communication challenges associated with that, the way that it was rolled out. Presumably one should learn from that experience not to repeat that in the future.

5690 When you’re looking at -- it remains unclear exactly what timelines the transition would occur in. But in this unknown timeline, at what point does it become important to start communicating to the general population? Because functionalities will change. But I think you would agree that at one point you’ve got to go even though you’re not 100 percent across the country.

5691 So there’s a communication challenge implicit in that where some things -- well, even if you do a pilot. Say it will be available in some places and it will get reported on and people may assume certain functionalities are available when they’re not. So how do you deal with that?

5692 MS. FINN: So public education is huge and I think that everybody -- PSAPs, ILECs, the Commission, service providers, everybody -- has a responsibility in some degree of public education. Because we know the public looks to many different sources for their information.

5693 It has to be ongoing education. Even at this point, I mean, people don’t understand how 9-1-1 works. And there’s probably many key messages, from a public education perspective, that we could be sharing with the public now with the current system and have it evolve.

5694 So again, T9-1-1 is a great example because we would say, you know, it’s available in the City of Toronto. Well, that doesn’t really mean anything to somebody who happens to be driving along Steeles Avenue, for example, which is a jurisdictional boundary. There’s an imaginary line there and if they’re on the wrong side that call doesn’t get answered or doesn’t show up as a registered T9-1-1.

5695 So those imaginary boundaries and those challenges, no matter how much you educate the public, are not apparent in an emergency. You’re not stopping to think about which side of the street you’re on or does it work here or doesn’t work there. You forget that in an emergency and you expect it to work.

5696 So there needs to be ongoing education and again a more collaborative approach to how these things go forward.

5697 THE CHAIRMAN: And at what point does one start that communication? Let’s say, you know, is it 12 months, 6 months? Do you necessarily have to think about it on an Ontario base or a community of communities that makes more sense?

5698 MS. FINN: I think it will be depend on whatever the next feature, for lack of a better word, would be. If we have an idea how it’s going to start to be deployed -- again, you know, if you’re announcing that Calgary, for example, is going to offer texting, then you have to be clear in all of your education that it is Calgary only and it is not available anywhere else.

5699 So I don’t know how far in advance you would want to start that education component because I think the more you talk about it, the more the expectation is “now”. People lose sight of six months from now it’s going to happen and they focus on the message that it’s available and again they’re not focusing on, “Oh, it’s not available for six months.”
So I think there would have to be some coordinated approaches to how far in advance. And I’m not sure I have the answer to that.

5700 THE CHAIRMAN: It’s clear from your position that the primary communication tool going forward, even in a next-generation scenario, will be voice? I think you’d agree with that?

5701 MS. FINN: I don’t know that I -- primary? I think that in an emergency I think most people default to voice. And it’s great to say that people want to text or people want to just send a picture. But in an emergency I think that people want a calming voice on the other end of the line. They want somebody to tell them what to do. They don’t necessarily want to have to stop and read a message.

5702 And I know from having emergency situations in my life that my dexterity -- when I’m upset or when I’m in a traumatic situation, I don’t think I could text a cohesive sentence in an emergency.

5703 So I do believe that as much as we say there will be other features -- and I think there will be people who will text -- that most people will default to voice because that’s what they know. It’s tried; it’s true; and it’s far quicker than communicating by text.

5704 THE CHAIRMAN: But after voice you assume that the next means of communication will be text of some sort?

5705 MS. FINN: I think the next evolution would likely be text. Because we have T9-1-1, which is basically of a hybrid at this point of voice and text, I think it’s a logical next step.

5706 THE CHAIRMAN: As you know, there’s a lot of ways to text. There’s the current SMS standard, which we’ve heard evidence is evolving to new standards which aren’t quite yet available. But that’s more the traditional, telephony context. But there’s also various applications from Facebook Messenger to WhatsApp, erstwhile Kik -- well, it’s not erstwhile; it’s still around but not a lot of people use it -- I mean, there’s a lot of applications that arise in this connected broadband environment.

5707 What are your views on how expansive should we be when thinking about texting?

5708 MS. FINN: So I'm not 100 percent sure. I think Real-Time Text -- and we’ve talked about that -- is something that will be coming. But when I think about Twitter and Facebook and you know, WhatsApp, these are all things that provide challenges in locating the person who requires emergency assistance.

5709 In our centre, we get many calls a year from people who tweet out that they need help or post something on Facebook, and trying to locate these people sometimes takes hours to try and locate. So it's not effective. It's great that they can put a message out there and hope to get help, but I would suggest that unless there's some type of change in how these message applications through these services work, I don’t see them as a realistic method to reach emergency services.

5710 Will people continue to use them? It's likely that they will, but we have to be clear that these aren't the best ways to get, you know, emergency response when time is of the essence.

5711 THE CHAIRMAN: It's interesting, the juxtaposition of saying on the one hand, voice is probably an effective way because of -- there's a social aspect to it. There's a human behaviour aspect to it. We know, you know, you've mentioned yourself, and I think I would agree, that in a stressful situation, texting may not be -- I wouldn't -- I personally don’t think I would be very good at it in a stress, adrenalin situation.

5712 But I'm not everybody, right, and we're seeing social behaviour change tremendously, where people -- and not to put the entire new generation in the same basket, but we're seeing it on a generational divide, where the phone is not used to talk any more, it's used to do a lot of things but that.

5713 At what point do we, as a society, have to accept that maybe we have to embrace that people are using other means to communicate in a -- and then have to figure out a way where the location and the other emergency response imperatives have to be added to that, rather than putting a wall on it? Because we know that voice continues to be an effective way of -- there seems -- I guess, aren't we at risk of -- by trying to be comfortable with the status quo and what we know, put up walls to what might be a rather significant social change in how people communicate?

5714 MS. FINN: So I'm certainly not suggesting that we put up walls and that we don’t accept other methods of communication. It's not at all what I'm suggesting, and I do appreciate that there will be people who will text. And again, the deaf community in itself is a prime example of that.

5715 But I do believe that we can't negate voice, and I think that there will be a lot more of the public than we expect that will continue to rely on voice, at least until we can prove that some of these other methods provide the same reliability by way of minimum standard requirements for the PSAPs to get the help there when they need them.

5716 If we have to spend minutes calling other carriers and service providers to get an approximate location and you know they're on the 23rd floor of an office tower but it only gets me 700-metre radius in that building, at what point do we realize that it's not an effective way and there's a better way to do it?

5717 So when these things can be delivered with those locations, I think that people will start to embrace them more. And I think PSAPs will be more receptive to a comfort level in we can get the people the help and we're not -- there's -- being on the end of an emergency call when you can't find the caller, I can't explain to you what that feels like when you have exhausted everything that you can and you still don’t know where to send that help.

5718 THE CHAIRMAN: Right. I can only imagine, except there may be two perspectives on this. One could take the -- only when an application provides the level of location do we embrace it. Or there's the other way of looking at it and say, because people are likely going to be using those means of communications, we have to proactively build something that will create location and the other functionalities that are required from a public safety perspective.

5719 MR. STUBBINGS: Part of our responsibility too is to help people help themselves. And I believe that if we can funnel them to the most reliable source -- as Tracy discussed, people already have difficulty just using 9-1-1. Some are pocket dials, various abuses -- my water is running. Can you go shut the water off in the house?

5720 Not excluding other technologies or apps that are available, but not to create confusion for people and unrealistic expectations that if they've -- you know, whatever mechanism they’ve used, that they have in their mind an expectation that somebody is coming, that we just -- we're not in an ability to help them.

5721 And I think part of our responsibility is to make it easy for them. And you might want to say make it easy and reliable. That's the -- so I think, you know, to go broadly into all of the different apps that you mentioned -- or there's probably more -- that might just be a little far afield for us. And it might raise the vulnerability and the ability for us, again, to provide public safety responses.

5722 THE CHAIRMAN: Right, although the media often celebrate stories when they're international disasters, how Facebook helped so-and-so to find -- but that's not the sort of the emergencies you're dealing with, and may be creating a false notion that Facebook messenger might be a way to communicate in emergencies in a first world.

5723 MR. STUBBINGS: Right. We're -- you know, we pay attention to these things, but I think, again, back to what this is about, about PSAPs in 9-1-1 response, we take that information in through other sources. But for a dispatch purpose, I think we could be raising the expectations of Canadians that something that we just -- we're not there yet.

5724 THE CHAIRMAN: Right. Do you monitor some social media currently across the various PSAPs, or -- and then try to get people into the correct channels?

5725 MR. STUBBINGS: We have Twitter accounts, those sorts of things. I mean, just general information. So people communicate with police services. We have Twitter, you know, Twitter people that, you know, above, that are Toronto police in our particular environment, and people do communicate with us. So we do communicate with the public through those sorts of mechanisms or Facebook accounts, but not for this purpose.

5726 THE CHAIRMAN: And it's ineffective, in terms of timeliness, I would think as well, right?

5727 MR. STUBBINGS: Well, we get instant public response back on, you know, how, you know, people's thoughts, et cetera. But again, back into an emergency response ---

5728 THE CHAIRMAN: That's what I meant.

5729 MR. STUBBINGS: Right. It's -- you know, we -- in some of our environments, we do get some feedback from the public.

5730 But again, as Tracy talked about, this is now for sending cars, resources, to situations. Some of the other things that people respond to, they become more evidentiary down the road for longer-term investigations, so people want to provide their accounts of -- so we'll send people out to talk to them. But that's not -- that's past the 9-1-1 emergency, if you will.

5731 MS. FINN: So let me just add to that. I think it's fair to say -- as the deputy said -- we do have staff, many officers, myself included, that are social-media trained for the service and we are on Facebook and Twitter and such. But when we do get calls for -- or people reach out via those platforms, it's not always a member of our team that is finding that. It's generally a member of the public who calls us on 9-1-1 to say, "Hey, I just saw this posting on Facebook" ---

5732 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah.

5733 MS. FINN: --- and that's how we start that search.

5734 THE CHAIRMAN: Perhaps our first communication attempts collectively would be to tell people that's the most efficient and safest way and most effective way to communicate with first responders; let the apps go and pick up the phone.

5735 We've had the discussion with others about the challenge in an era where you will have more than voice calls and perhaps text exchanges and call records to manage, into a world where you may actually have -- maybe not tomorrow and maybe not in four years, five years -- but at some point, there will be videos, photos, and a lot of other information.

5736 How do we tackle that access and storage and retention issue?

5737 Is it just bigger than what we’re doing now and we just have to adapt to it, the basic principles at play there remain the correct principles, that it’s the PSAPs that are principally responsible for this and not, let’s say, the ILECs -- if we go down that model -- or the consortium, and that privacy issues are dealt with like they are now; there’s no need to reinvent the wheel but it’s business as usual but for the fact there’s a lot more potential data points and records to be stored and retained?

5738 MR. STUBBINGS: At a high level, I can tell you that everything you said are all -- they’re all concerns of ours. We have a finite amount of data storage. We have great concern about -- you know, you talk about cloud storage; we talk about -- you know, every municipality, you know, and we’re one of the largest -- well, we are the largest municipal service in the country and these are huge pressures for us.

5739 But again getting back over to the budget side of the house, the capital investment in data storage and systems becomes unwieldy. Quite frankly, we’re trying to get through that right now. I wouldn’t have a comprehensive answer for you. I can tell you it’s discussed in the policing community because we have other technologies that, you know, we’re exploring right now.

5740 But with our justice partners, again -- with the courts as well -- how do we provide evidence in a format that the courts can understand as well? So it doesn’t just end even in our own environment. It goes off to the judicial processes.

5741 THE CHAIRMAN: Right. And I appreciate that and we know that connectivity -- in fact, yesterday we saw a very glaring example when police forces did not have the connectivity required and the consequences that could have come of that.

5742 But I put it to you that we could -- the PSAPs or the local authorities, it’s a fact point that the cost of storage retention that they have to take into consideration when they decide whether or not to go next-generation. That assumes that they take responsibility for those issues, as a starting point, and if they do not have the budgets, financial, or other resources available to them, then you don’t flick the switch for that particular type of data.

5743 MR. STUBBINGS: Yeah, that’s right.

5744 You also mentioned privacy issues as well. And we’d have to explore that as well through our privacy commissioner environment in our province as well.

5745 That’s not an easy -- yeah, I know. I know it’s not easy for and you’re probably expecting a finite answer. But it’s something that -- it’s a major concern for us ---

5746 THE CHAIRMAN: Right.

5747 MR. STUBBINGS: --- the ability to do this.

5748 THE CHAIRMAN: But not in terms of reinventing the rules in a next-generation 9-1-1 scenario, but how -- assuming it’s the same principles -- do you manage the workload, the human resources, the budgets associated with that? Would that be a more correct statement?

5749 MR. STUBBINGS: Yeah, absolutely. And these are big organizational questions. You know, you talk about the -- you know, that’s the just cost and ability to store. But then there’s how do you process the information? There’s as a whole, if you will -- a whole factory below the water line of people that have to do this work, which puts great pressures.

5750 And again, as you know we talked about earlier, we’re prepared to change as we modernize in public safety environments. But we want to make sure that the speed of the change -- we’re able to match the speed of the change rather than playing catch-up and doing it in an unthoughtful way.

5751 THE CHAIRMAN: One might think that there would be efficiencies of scale to be garnered from consolidations of PSAPs precisely to deal with some of those issues you’re dealing with, that a larger, better-structured PSAP might have more depth, girth, experience, resources to precisely deal with those transitional issues. Would you agree?

5752 MR. STUBBINGS: You know, the coordination of them, there can be some benefit to that. But again, in the existing models that exist, I just think some other municipalities might not be interested in supporting -- I’ll say “get the bang for the buck”, if they will, and contributing to another environment where it’s just they’re not seeing the return on investment but they’re contributing to something that’s being utilized in larger municipalities.

5753 So it would be hard to speak for them but I’m not sure how they would -- I think I know. They wouldn’t want to give their tax-based dollars over necessarily to us where we would have probably a larger use on a day-to-day basis.

5754 THE CHAIRMAN: So you don’t envisage consolidation of PSAP in your world?

5755 MR. STUBBINGS: No. No, I don’t. I don’t think that -- that’s not -- as we go in towards more modernization and consolidation of partnerships, et cetera, it’s not off the table. I mean, certainly as we look for more efficient models, those are the kinds of discussions that I think are important to have as we advance different frameworks forward.

5756 THE CHAIRMAN: Are there currently plans in Ontario for consolidation?

5757 MR. STUBBINGS: Well, broadly speaking, in other areas of policing we are looking -- obviously in the modernization of policing in the Province of Ontario we’re looking for a lot of different -- responses in different environments, not in this particular discussion that I’m aware of.

5758 Tracy, you may know but I don’t.

5759 But we are -- in the policing environment, for sure -- because of the pressures that we do have, we are looking for efficiencies and, you know, cost-sharing, sharing of resources where possible.

5760 THE CHAIRMAN: I’d like to explore with you with respect to the accessibility community what lessons can be drawn from the past that will help guide us in the future, whether it’s Text 9-1-1 or your best practices in various PSAPs, in order to interface with members of that community.

5761 And if you were here yesterday, they’re very diverse. The nature of the accessibility issues are wide; the organizations are very diverse; their capacities are very diverse. And on top of that they face communication challenges which will be key to actually building that capacity.

5762 So lessons learned, from your perspective, on that?

5763 MS FINN: So I think it was a challenging deployment, if you will. I know that in the City of Toronto we did do some public outreach prior to even the trial that took place at -- you know, Bob Rumball Centre, for example, Canadian Hearing Society. We even went to the Ernest C. Drury School for the Deaf out in Milton to kind of talk about what was coming.

5764 Certainly the outreach was probably not as great as the community would have liked and there are lessons learned for us in that as well.

5765 There were very few organizations who participated at ESWG, as a matter of fact. I think we had representation from the Canadian Hard of Hearing Association and CHS only. So a wider expanse of outreach.

5766 But we did work collaboratively with the CWTA in trying to get the best information and those sources of information for the T9-1-1 service out to the public as best we could.

5767 THE CHAIRMAN: So going forward, because there will be presumably similar challenges with next-generation 9-1-1, how do we learn from those, that experience and others? How do we try to do better next time? And who ultimately is responsible for that?

5768 MS FINN: Well, I think it comes back again to a collaborative effort, right? The PSAPs, the municipalities. So you know, lessons earned. It could have been that maybe -- you know, we did reach out to some of the deaf organizations. And it is very hard to gather information on all of the varying organizations, and I know we have to look at different resources. Perhaps we're looking at leveraging city services that may have the better link to communities.

5769 If we're trying to focus on a specific group, there's got to be another way to -- or a better way, rather, to make sure we're hitting the right organizations. But those organizations also have to take some ownership in ensuring that the information gets to their members, because we can press release, we can social media, we can post them on websites, but not everybody hits the same sources for their information, so everybody has to have a hand in filtering down that information when they talk to friends and ---

5770 THE CHAIRMAN: Right.

5771 MS. FINN: --- that's how the information share will work.

5772 THE CHAIRMAN: Maybe just a variation on the vacuum on the public safety leadership coordination that we talked about right at the beginning.

5773 MR. STUBBINGS: I think we could add, though, in Ontario, the AODA, I mean we thought it was this great thirst of knowledge. It's been in all of, you know, business and in public sector organizations that part of that, in our environment, is, as Tracy discussed, it's reaching out; it's forming committees that you're -- you have a constant dialogue that we hear.

5774 We work on policies together, so we can determine how to best serve, because sometimes barriers are there that we're not -- we're just unintentionally unaware of, and through education of our side of the fence as well.

5775 But also, out of those discussions comes the capabilities of public safety organizations as well. It's back to the persons affected, so they realize what the limitations are of policing, fire, paramedic services as well. So constant discussion, dialogue, feedback, but developing relationships that are really meaningful relationships.

5776 THE CHAIRMAN: My last area of questioning before I turn to my colleagues and to legal is with respect to TTY. Do you actually -- are you equipped to receive TTY? I mean, how often is it used; what's your experience currently?

5777 MS. FINN: So like everybody else, we are equipped. Calls are few and far between; I would say less than 10 a year. So training is a challenge much like T9-1-1 because it's not used very often. We are testing every day to make sure that the functionality is still up and running. We're doing random training ongoing because if you don’t use the skills, you lose the skills, so we're constantly refreshing our staff.

5778 We don’t have TTY on every call taker work station, so they're at a supervisor location, so again it's one stand alone, but for the call volume that we receive, it sufficiently meets our needs for the amount of calls that we receive.

5779 THE CHAIRMAN: Are there any legislative or other regulatory requirements, to your knowledge, that -- in Ontario, for instance, that would require you to have TTY?

5780 MS. FINN: Not from a 9-1-1 perspective, but I believe that businesses in itself have to have one, so we comply by having it in the PSAP.

5781 THE CHAIRMAN: But not for the 9-1-1 functionalities?

5782 MS. FINN: There is no ---

5783 THE CHAIRMAN: It’s done for ---

5784 MS. FINN: There is no regulation.

5785 THE CHAIRMAN: --- historic reasons rather than -- and public safety reasons ---

5786 MS. FINN: Correct.

5787 THE CHAIRMAN: --- more so than because you're obliged to by some statute?

5788 MS. FINN: That's right.

5789 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, good. Thank you.

5790 Apparently, my colleagues have no questions, but legal does. Thanks.

5791 MR. LY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good morning.

5792 We heard from Bell yesterday that in their territory, they have connected all their secondary PSAPs in their territory. Can you provide your views on whether the connections between the NG9-1-1 core network and secondary PSAPs should be paid for through the ILEC tariffs or by the communities themselves, particularly given that a large -- particularly given the large number of secondaries across the country?

5793 MS. FINN: Sorry, can you just repeat that? Sorry, just the connectivity to?

5794 MR. LY: Sure. Should the connectivity be paid for through ILEC tariffs or the communities themselves, given the -- particularly given the large number of secondaries in the country? What's your view on how they should be paid for?

5795 MS. FINN: So the connectivity today, to my understanding, is covered by the tariff, so I think it should remain the same.

5796 MR. LY: Great, thank you. That's all.

5797 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much for participating in this hearing.

5798 I think what we'll do is -- it's a bit early for a break. We'll at least hear the presentation for the next panel, and then we'll move to questions. Thank you very much.

5799 LA SECRÉTAIRE: J’inviterais maintenant la Coalition pour le service 9-1-1- au Québec de s’approcher.


5801 LA SECRÉTAIRE: S’il vous plait, vous introduire et introduire vos collègues et vous avez 20 minutes pour votre présentation. Merci.


5802 M. ALLEN: Monsieur le président, bonjour. Monsieur le vice-président, Madame, Messieurs les conseillers, Madame la secrétaire de l’audience, et membres du personnel du conseil de l’équipe 9-1-1, nous vous remercions de votre invitation à participer à la présente audience.

5803 Comparaissent pour la Coalition pour le service 9-1-1 au Québec :

5804 À mon extrême droite, Monsieur Bernard Brabant, expert-conseil 9-1-1, qui nous accompagne;

5805 Monsieur Pierre Foucault, le représentant de l’Association des centres d’urgence du Québec et du Service de police de la Ville de Montréal;`

5806 À ma droite, Monsieur Daniel Veilleux, directeur général de la Centrale des appels d’urgence de Chaudière-Appalaches, mieux connue sous l’acronyme CAUCA;

5807 Et enfin, moi-même, Serge Allen, directeur général de l’Agence municipale de financement et de développement des centres d’urgence 9-1-1 du Québec – je m’excuse du nom, ce n’est pas moi qui l’ai choisi.

5808 Et voilà. Alors, Monsieur le Président, nous allons… le document que nous vous soumettons, compte tenu des contraintes de temps, nous avons identifié en ombragé bleu les parties que nous allons livrer verbalement, le texte est quand même plus complet, et ce sera une alternance entre M. Foucault et M. Veilleux. Nous sommes disponibles à la fin.

5809 M. FOUCAULT: Donc, le conseil propose un projet des plus stimulants, susceptible d’accroître la collaboration étroite entre toutes les parties prenantes du système 9-1-1 au pays. La transition vers le 9-1-1 de prochaine génération, si elle est menée de façon adéquate, devrait conduire à une améliorationde la sécurité de la population dont nous pourrons tous être fiers.

5810 Nous espérons un processus inclusif et respectueuxdes besoins, des préoccupations, des contraintes et des responsabilités des centres d’appels de la sécurité publique (CASP). Même si ceux-ci relèvent d’un autre ordre de gouvernement, ils sont incontournables.

5811 La technologiedes télécommunications évolue et elle offrira sûrement de nouveaux outils ou moyens de communication d’urgence novateurs avec les CASP, dont certains que nous ne soupçonnons pas encore. Il faut s’en réjouir, mais demeurer focalisés sur l’objectif : traiter rapidement et de façon sécuritaire et fiable les appels à l’aide, obtenir dans tous les cas la localisation précise des appelants, peu importe la technologie utilisée, et ce, avec le moins d’intermédiaires possible ou d’imprécisions, sans avoir à trier de l’information accessoire. Il faut que le Conseil établisse des normes et des principes généraux qui guident les développeurs de nouveaux produits et services, sans toutefois jamais renoncer, au nom de la « souplesse », à des acquis quant à la sécurité des communications.

5812 Au point 1, « Enjeux » :

5813 Le réseau 9-1-1 hérité des années 90 a bien servi les Canadiens. Il sera remplacé, graduellement, par une technologie plus souple, plus performante à certains égards. Celle-ci peut aussi être source de préoccupations en raison de nouveaux enjeux de complexité, de cyber-sécurité, d’interopérabilité et d’interdépendance de plusieurs systèmes et réseaux connexes. Nous avons eu l’occasion de faire connaître notre opinion à ces sujets dans nos observations produites autant pour la présente instance que pour celle antérieure sur la fiabilité et la résilience des réseaux 9-1-1 (la 2015-305).

5814 M. VEILLEUX: Les nouveaux moyens de communication.

5815 Nous n’avons trouvé à ce jour aucune étude ou rapport d’expertise sur les « besoins » des Canadiens, soumis par quiconque dans le cadre de l’instance, afin de documenter cette question. Ces données seraient utiles, afin de déterminer les éléments prioritaires ou les plus utiles, et en même temps techniquement réalisables et abordables.

5816 Par quoi faut-il commencer? Les besoins spéciaux et les services adaptés pour les personnes vivant avec un handicap limitant les possibilités de communication conventionnelle devraient aussi être considérés.

5817 Les moyens de joindre le service 9-1-1 pourraient se multiplier : textos, télématique, applications et autres. C’est le moment pour le Conseil de définir des critères ou des exigences minimales de sécurité obligatoires qui doivent être respectées, afin de déterminer des communications au service 9-1-1. Quitte à parfaire le tout, au fur et à mesure de l’innovation.

5818 Nous ne voyons pas d’intérêt pour les CASP à développer une « application nationale » pour joindre le 9-1-1 : laissons la place à l’innovation et à la créativité, d’où qu’elle provienne, mais toutefois guidée et sanctionnée avec un mécanisme canadien préalable de « certification ».

5819 Nous sommes évidemment intéressés par les avancées que le service 9-1-1 PG devrait offrir afin d’améliorer la sécurité des personnes qui joignent le service 9-1-1. La nouvelle technologie ne doit pas diminuer la qualité des services, mais la maintenir ou l’améliorer comme les fonctionnalités sécuritaires du réseau 9-1-1 actuel. C’est le rôle du Conseil d’être exigeant, et ne pas se contenter de demi-mesures ou d’expédients. Le passage au service 9-1-1 PG et aux réseaux IP ne devrait jamais être l’occasion de diminuer la sécurité de nos citoyens.

5820 Les citoyens, en particulier les plus jeunes générations, ont probablement déjà des attentes légitimes sur des modes alternatifs afin de demander des secours, reflétant leurs modes et outils préférés de communication. Ces modes comportent peut-être des risques qu’il convient de bien évaluer, avant de les autoriser. Se croire en sécurité n’est pas l’équivalent d’être en sécurité. Le fardeau d’identification des renseignements ne doit pas être reporté par défaut sur les CASP et les services d’urgence locaux, si de nouveaux services autorisés laissent à désirer à cet égard. Le Conseil a le rôle de protéger les citoyens, selon son plan d’action.

5821 Les autorités compétentes et leurs CASP auront des choix à faire quant à l’utilisation ou non de ces nouvelles possibilités, sujet qui relève d’eux seuls. Même avec la meilleure volonté, ceux-ci demeureront dépendants des processus budgétaires pluriannuels, des délais et des formalités pour les acquisitions d’équipement et la rareté des ressources techniques spécialisées ou financières. Il faudra également considérer les répercussions potentiellement indésirables sur le personnel dans certains cas.

5822 Nos réponses et observations, dans les quatre documents soumis dans la présente instance, font valoir qu’il faut distinguer entre ce qui est possible, ce qui est prioritaire, et ce qui est souhaitable ou utile du point de vue des CASP. Nous ne travaillons pas dans le domaine du divertissement : chaque seconde compte lors d’un appel pour des secours. D’où l’importance pour le Conseil de limiter, dans la mesure du possible, les solutions nécessitant des intermédiaires pour le traitement des appels d’urgence 9-1-1 : cela nous semble constituer une solution de facilité. Cette pratique ne semble d’ailleurs assujettie présentement à aucune norme ou autorité de surveillance.

5823 M. FOUCAULT: Les fournisseurs du réseau 9-1-1.

5824 Les entreprises de services locaux titulaires sont responsables des réseaux 9-1-1 au Canada. Ce modèle a permis de simplifier les choses, de faciliter l’ajout rapide de fonctionnalités, de limiter la complexité et de conserver des coûts plus raisonnables pour les municipalités, leurs CASP et les citoyens au Canada, comparativement à nos voisins américains.

5825 Nous ne croyons pas que l’on doive retirer ou fragmenter cette responsabilité ou modifier ce modèle, sans motifs clairs d’intérêt public, malgré son caractère quasi-monopolistique. Tout peut être amélioré, mais il n’y a pas de place pour l’improvisation et l’absence d’imputabilité dans ce domaine. La migration vers le 9-1-1 PG ne doit pas non plus être une occasion de transférer des responsabilités ou des coûts additionnels aux municipalités ou à leurs CASP. La Coalition est d’avis que le modèle actuel de réglementation par le Conseil est adéquat, en exigeant toutefois plus de transparence financière. De plus, il nous semble essentiel d’exiger de conserver totalement au Canada tous les systèmes et aspects du réseau 9-1-1 canadien.

5826 Le calendrier de déploiement simultané de nouvelles fonctionnalités 9-1-1 PG devrait être coordonné au moins à l’échelle provinciale, et les futurs réseaux 9-1-1 des fournisseurs devraient toujours être simultanément totalement interopérables, sécurisées et compatibles en totalité, d’un océan à l’autre.

5827 M. VEILLEUX: Encore beaucoup d’inconnus.

5828 Il faut faire preuve de perspicacité et avancer prudemment, car il n’existe pas, à notre connaissance, de réseau 9-1-1 PG complet et fonctionnel nulle part dans le monde. Les choix de nos voisins américains auront très probablement des répercussions au Canada. Comme rappelé par plusieurs intervenants dans l’instance, le 9-1-1 PG et la feuille de route de son implantation au Canada ne sont pas définis actuellement sur les plans administratifs, fonctionnels, techniques ou opérationnels, sinon par des concepts généraux et une vision globale limitée.

5829 Les éléments techniques du 9-1-1 PG ne semblent vraiment pas maîtrisés… ne semblent vraiment maîtrisés que par quelques personnes au pays. Comment rêver l’avenir si l’on n’en connaît pas les possibilités? Qui fera les choix? Une démarche d’information et de vulgarisation à l’échelle nationale devrait être entreprise avec le soutien du Conseil et des fournisseurs, car nous notons un déficit d’information pratique (en français, en particulier) auprès des CASP. Il ne faut pas imposer aux diverses parties d’être mises devant les faits accomplis ou d’accepter des choix dictés par des impératifs commerciaux.

5830 Quant au cadre réglementaire, il nous semble prématuré ou impossible de tout prévoir aujourd’hui. Comme le Conseil le mentionne, il faudra probablement procéder par étapes, mais sans laisser traîner les choses entre celles-ci. Maintenir deux systèmes en parallèle durant un certain temps sera coûteux, mais on ne peut prendre le risque de solutions rapides non éprouvées.

5831 M. FOUCAULT: Le français.

5832 Afin de faciliter le passage au 9-1-1 PG, le Conseil devinera que nous sommes particulièrement intéressés par des rapports et des publications techniques en langue française, un point irritant au Québec, mentionné à plusieurs reprises dans le passé lors de l’approbation de rapports du GTSU par le Conseil.

5833 Nous exprimons clairement nos attentes que les rapports et les documents techniques approuvés par le Conseil relativement au service 9-1-1 soient toujours traduits à l’avenir et dans une langue de qualité.

5834 Comment partager un vocabulaire et des objectifs communs, pour un objet aussi essentiel et complexe que le 9-1-1 PG, sans se soucier de toujours respecter la lettre, sinon l’esprit, de la Loi sur les langues officielles? Approuver en quelques lignes bilingues d’importants documents unilingues, généralement la substance de la décision, ne nous semble pas convenable. Ces documents ne sont pas produits par des entreprises ou des particuliers dans la langue de leur choix, mais par des groupes de travail relevant du CRTC. L’anglais est utilisé pour des raisons de commodité. Lors de leur approbation avec une valeur quasi-réglementaire, ils devraient toujours alors être disponibles dans les deux langues officielles. Cela facilitera la transition vers le 9-1-1 PG au Québec de façon harmonieuse avec le reste du pays, si cela constitue pour le Conseil un objectif souhaitable.

5835 M. VEILLEUX: Coordination nationale. La coordination nationale du design, de l’architecture, du déploiement et de la gestion du 9-1-1 PG semble un élément important pour certaines parties.

5836 Pour notre part, nous sommes favorables à la mise en place d’un mécanisme souple de coordination, de pilotage, d’information, de partage d’expériences et d’essais à l’échelle nationale (donc généralement bilingue). Cela serait sans doute utile afin de faire progresser le dossier de façon ordonnée et validée. Le GTSU peut-il jouer ce rôle? Il devrait peut-être alors disposer de ressources financières et humaines requises pour la coordination, ou avoir la possibilité de recourir à des experts externes de façon ad hoc.

5837 La transparence et l’absence de conflits d’intérêts de la direction d’un tel mécanisme de coordination nous semblent essentielles. Les CASP sont peu nombreux, leurs quelques représentants sont déjà très sollicités par leurs responsabilités professionnelles, contrairement aux entreprises plus disponibles réglementées par le Conseil. Nous croyons important de toujours conserver un équilibre significatif et crédible dans la constitution d’un tel mécanisme.

5838 M. FOUCAULT: Bien que la localisation des appels sans fil par le réseau cellulaire ou par d’autres types alternatifs d’acheminement des appels soit exclue de cette instance, il faut rappeler qu’il est inexplicable, pour les citoyens, que contrairement au CASP 9-1-1, alors que des vies peuvent être en jeu, Uber ou ses amis puissent les localiser très précisément lors d’un appel. C’est un sujet beaucoup plus important et vital que les vidéos au 9-1-1, selon nous, tant dans l’environnement actuel que dans celui du 9-1-1 PG. Les principes et les exigences à cet égard devraient précéder ou être établis simultanément à un cadre réglementaire pour le 9-1-1 PG, car ce n’est certainement pas une question accessoire.

5839 Conclusion. Nous vous remercions de votre écoute, et nous sommes prêts à répondre à vos questions.

5840 LE PRÉSIDENT: Alors merci pour votre présentation. Comme je l’ai annoncé plus tôt, on va prendre notre pause de la matinée et on est en ajournement jusqu’à 10h30.

5841 Merci beaucoup. Quinze (15) minutes. Merci.

--- Upon recessing at 10:14 a.m.

--- Upon resuming at 10:32 a.m.

5842 LE PRÉSIDENT: À l’ordre, s’il vous plaît.

5843 Alors je vais vous poser des questions pas mal semblables à ce que j’ai posé au dernier groupe, donc vous ne serez pas étonnés, mais peut-être que... je pense que vous avez suivi la discussion, donc on va pouvoir être peut-être un petit peu plus efficace parce que je n’aurai pas besoin d’expliquer autant.

5844 Effectivement, nous voyons dans cette instance un conflit de vision par rapport à qui devrait être... quelle serait la structure architecturale pour livrer le côté réseau du 9-1-1 de prochaine génération.

5845 Et j’aimerais vous entendre par rapport à votre point de vue, qui est un point de vue non pas de politiques traditionnelles de télécommunications mais vraiment un point de vue de gens qui ont à cœur la santé et la sécurité des citoyens.

5846 Pourquoi, à votre avis, le modèle... parce que je pense bien que votre point de vue c’est que le modèle du consortium n’est pas le bon point de vue pour l’avenir, qu’on devrait bâtir plutôt sur un système basé par l’intermédiaire des entreprises de services locaux titulaires... pourquoi, non pas parce que vous avez toujours fait affaire avec certains groupes, mais pourquoi d’un point de vue de sécurité publique c’est la meilleure façon de procéder dorénavant?

5847 M. FOUCAULT: On favorise le modèle actuel des entreprises de services locaux titulaires. Pourquoi? Parce que ça nous a permis de déployer des nouveaux services relativement rapidement pour la population canadienne. Je pense à la Phase II cellulaire. Je pense au texto au 9-1-1 pour les personnes sourdes, malentendantes et avec des difficultés d’élocution. On a un tel interlocuteur qui a des obligations et c’est régi par un tarif approuvé par le CRTC dans le format actuel. Donc on voit un grand avantage, surtout quand on se compare à nos voisins au sud de la frontière où le service 9-1-1 est une mosaïque. Quand on change d’état et même de conté, on ne peut pas s’attendre au même service alors que via le GTSU et le travail avec nos partenaires des sans fil, les ESLT et les autres PSAP canadiens... pardon, les autres CASP canadiens... nous a permis de déployer des services relativement uniformes à travers le pays et relativement rapidement.

5848 Il y a encore des zones chez nos voisins du sud qui n’ont pas la Phase II cellulaire. Le service est inégal, ce qui n’est pas le cas au Canada.

5849 LE PRÉSIDENT: Mais certains diront qu’au Canada, en suivant cette logique-là, on n’a toujours pu déployer, par exemple, les services téléphoniques partout au pays d’une façon assez efficace, qu’on n’aurait pas eu besoin même d’introduire de la concurrence au niveau des longues distances, de la téléphonie locale. À un moment donné c’est peut-être le temps de redéfinir nos objectifs et les moyens par lesquels on les atteint.

5850 M. FOUCAULT: Moi, je pense qu’il nous apparait évident que les nouvelles technologies nous poussent en avant pour le service 9-1-1. Comme on le disait dans notre contribution, les gens s’attendent à être localisés. Quand quelqu’un appelle au 9-1-1, il s’attend à ce que le préposé qui lui répond sache exactement où il est, et malheureusement ce n’est pas toujours le cas. Je pense que nos amis de Toronto l’ont exposé tout à l’heure.

5851 Et c’est normal pour quelqu’un qui appelle au 9-1-1 d’avoir des attentes très élevées parce que les applications aujourd’hui localisent facilement. Vous pouvez vous trouver un taxi, une pizza en quelques secondes.

5852 Et pour le 9-1-1 c’est des systèmes qui sont plus sécurisés, qui sont plus encadrés qui font que parfois l’information n’est pas aussi précise mais elle est souvent plus fiable. Avec les avancées des technologies, ça va aller encore de plus en plus vite et il faut suivre le pas. Il faut suivre... mais il ne faut pas le faire n’importe comment. Malheureusement, il faut s’assurer de rendre les nouveaux services sans compromettre les services déjà existants, selon nous.

5853 LE PRÉSIDENT: Monsieur Brabant?

5854 M. BRABANT: Oui. Votre première question tantôt concernant l’architecture des bénéfices, si on regarde présentement le point de contact unique, toutes les technologies, s’il y a un problème, surtout avec les nouvelles technologies, on regarde présentement la tuyauterie. On regarde, ni plus ni moins, on dit le réseau IP des services d’urgence, ce qu’on appelle ESInet communément. On regarde juste au niveau de tuyauterie.

5855 Il y a beaucoup d’autres choses qui vont venir interagir avec le 9-1-1 de prochaine génération qui est complètement mis en sourdine pour le moment.

5856 En ce qui concerne les centres d’urgence d’avoir affaire avec un fournisseur que d’avoir affaire avec 22 fournisseurs, parce que si on regarde hier ce que Bell nous a soumis comme plan... puis ça, c’est simplement à haut niveau, au niveau des fonctions. Ce n’est pas tous les fournisseurs qui vont être inter-reliés et tout. Il y arrive une problématique pour le centre d’urgence. On appelle qui?

5857 Présentement, d’ailleurs, lorsqu’il y a un problème, est-ce que c’est le fournisseur des services sans fil? Est-ce que c’est le revendeur? Déjà c’est toute une problématique pour les centres d’urgence de réussir de communiquer avec la bonne personne. On a un appel à faire.

5858 Lorsque le 9-1-1 ne peut pas être hors-service pour de longues périodes et...

5859 LE PRÉSIDENT: Mais on pourrait...

5860 M. BRABANT: ...c’est un des facteurs ça.

5861 LE PRÉSIDENT: ...entrevoir, par contre, que si on allait vers un consortium choisi par un appel d’offres, il pourrait quand même y avoir un seul interlocuteur.

5862 M. BRABANT: Il arrive au niveau technique... par exemple, aujourd’hui, je suis membre de NENA depuis 1996. Je suis sur de nombreux comités techniques là-bas. Je suis sur le GTSU depuis 1997.

5863 Présentement, nous avons 18 tâches d’ouvertes sur lesquelles on cherche des recommandations, des solutions. Et de dire qu’un consortium va avoir accès à tout... et on parle juste au niveau des alarmes, des informations, comment gérer les réseaux et tout.

5864 Même s’il y avait un consortium, le consortium n’aurait pas accès à chaque compagnie individuelle sous toutes les composantes, ce qui a présentement avec différentes façons.

5865 Si on regarde avec le texto 9-1-1 la façon qu’il a été introduit, la façon que c’est fait, on n’a pas 42 appels à faire. On a un appel.

5866 Et indépendamment où est la plateforme c’est d’ailleurs une plateforme nationale mais qui sert les intérêts des Québécois et c’est ça vers quoi on regarde.

5867 Le pourquoi que le modèle qui a été proposé présentement par les entreprises de services locaux titulaires pour nous est le modèle idéal pour le fait que le 9-1-1 est si critique.

5868 Et notre personnel des centres d’urgence ne sont pas nécessairement des experts en télécommunications. Certains centres oui, mais lorsqu’on regarde les 28 centres n’ont pas tous le même degré d’expertises.

5869 On a besoin de faire affaire avec quelqu’un qui a accès aux informations, qui peut nous donner les réponses en temps voulu et rapidement de la fiabilité.

5870 Si on introduit le, par exemple, avec ce qui s’en vient avec la nouvelle technologie, la cyber-sécurité, je suis le responsable au GTSU pour la cyber-sécurité. Il y a bonne pratique pour justement les centres d’urgence. On va... on devrait déposer un rapport dans les mois à venir.

5871 Juste cet élément-là est complètement... c’est incroyable le degré de combien de personnes on va devoir faire affaire et référence avec.

5872 On ne doit pas oublier cela. Ce n’est pas juste de la tuyauterie. Je comprends que le CRTC présentement l’a comme responsabilité, mais globalement on doit regarder le service de bout en bout.

5873 Le 9-1-1 de prochaine génération, si on l’introduit en 2018 avec projet pilote et ce qu’il va avoir l’air en 2020, en 2022, 2025, on parle des choses totalement différentes.

5874 Et ça nous comme centre d’urgence on doit viser c’est comment qu’il va être à la fin. On n’a pas toutes les informations aujourd’hui, mais on doit viser cela.

5875 M. ALLEN: Monsieur le président, pour peut-être compléter et revenir à l’essence de votre question au départ sur la question de consortium.

5876 Nous n’avons pas d’appétit pour les monopoles ou quoi que ce soit. Nous sommes très bien servis actuellement.

5877 Nous avons fait valoir nos observations aux documents et dans le document ce matin. Si on change ce modèle il faudrait savoir pourquoi.

5878 Est-ce que c’est pour des raisons de philosophie? Vous-mêmes les membres du Conseil, j’ai écouté toutes les audiences toute la semaine, évidemment je m’en suis fait un devoir et même une joie à l’occasion, donc je dirais que j’ai... je me souviens de Rogers, je me souviens de Vidéotron.

5879 Il y a quelqu’un parmi vous qui a posé la question le consortium pourquoi, qu’est-ce qui vous préoccupe et est-ce que le 9-1-1 est comme un service commercial comme les autres en compétition ou si c’est un service public?

5880 C’est peut-être vous-même qui avez posé la question.

5881 Je pense qu’on doit se poser la question qu’est-ce qui fait que les gens veulent absolument un consortium, ceux qui le demande. Quel est leur intérêt?

5882 Est-ce que c’est un intérêt financier? Il y avait beaucoup de secret dans ce domaine. Vous avez... le Conseil a publié les montants retirés par les fournisseurs de services en 2015.

5883 Je crois que c’est la première fois de l’histoire qu’on a accès à ces montants-là, combien ça rapporte. On a vu 65 million là de... je vous dis ça de mémoire. Très bien.

5884 Comment c’est utilisé, comment ça sera. Nous on vous dit peut-être que les... au lieu d’un consortium on devrait aller avec une première étape qui serait de rendre un peu plus transparent les revenus financiers.

5885 Les compétiteurs ou fournisseurs en compétition et autre, Rogers, Vidéotron, et cetera, pourraient avoir accès à certaines données, pourraient questionner la façon... l’efficience de la gestion de ces sommes, et cetera, mais pas nécessairement avoir à gérer le service.

5886 Quand on a un problème nous, si on a un problème on peut s’adresser aux tribunaux puis aller régler avec Bell, mais un consortium c’est tout le monde et personne. Ça ne finira pas.

5887 Même si on crée un consortium qui s’appelle Réseau 9-1-1 Canada Incorporé, un peu comme il y a SRV Canada et d’autres modèles. Il y a tout de sortes d’organismes qu’on peut créer, peut-être que oui mais c’est fait... puis ça fait beaucoup d’étapes et de couches.

5888 Peut-être qu’on devrait plutôt améliorer le processus de négociation, ou d’interaction, ou de communication, entre les fournisseurs de réseaux, qu’ils soient titulaires ou non-titulaires, s’il y a de l’information à partager et le Conseil pourrait jouer un rôle de forum pour ça éventuellement là et je pense qu’on résoudrait le problème.

5889 Parce que personne n’a mentionné que c’était essentiel, sinon pour dire nous sommes en dans un monde compétitif, comme la compétition introduite dans les interurbains que vous mentionnez et tout. Ce qui est très bien.

5890 On en bénéficie tous comme consommateurs et on s’en réjouie, mais dans ce cas est-ce que c’est un problème de compétition pour faire de la philosophie ou de compétition pour améliorer vraiment l’efficacité et le gain à quelqu’un.

5891 Le gain serait auprès de qui? Quel serait-il?

5892 Dans la réduction des tarifs d’interurbains, dans la réduction des tarifs téléphoniques d’abonnement locaux il y a un gain concret, mesurable, et vous avez adopté une politique récemment sur la large bande ouverte à tout le monde, et cetera. Bravo. On offre les services.

5893 Mais dans le cas du 9-1-1 quel est le gain et pour qui? C’est la question qu’on pose.

5894 S’il y a une réponse claire à ça on n’est pas... nous ne sommes pas fermés philosophiquement à dire jamais, jamais, mais il faudrait savoir est-ce qu’on le fait rien que parce que ce serait bien ou il y a un objectif puis qu’on peut pas le mesurer.

5895 M. VEILLEUX: Et même avec une réponse claire (inaudible).

5896 LE PRÉSIDENT: Veuillez utiliser votre micro pour qu’on puisse mettre votre réponse sur la transcription, si vous voulez donner une réponse.

5897 M. VEILLEUX: D’accord. Ce que je disais c’est que même avec une réponse claire là-dessus les mécanismes d’acquisition de RSP puis d’RFI qu’on... dont on parlait tantôt, sont quand même très, très, très long.

5898 Fait que la question c’est à quelle vitesse qu’on pourrait déployer si on prenait cette position-là. Pour nous autre on disait time is the essence, fait que je pense que on regarde pour que ça puisse s’implanter assez rapidement. C’est l’attente des citoyens puis de nos municipalités.

5899 LE PRÉSIDENT: Vous avez mentionné la nécessité possiblement d’avoir plus de transparence par rapport à la façon que nous fixons les tarifs.

5900 Est-ce que vous avez des recommandations spécifiques à cet égard?

5901 Un de nos défis c’est que les éléments de coûts, l’équipement, la structure qui est utilisée pour les services 9-1-1 sont aussi utilisés pour des services concurrentiels.

5902 Et donc permettre plus de transparence pour l’aspect 9-1-1 fait violence au principe de la confidentialité pour le reste de l’utilisation de ces équipements-là et puis évidemment pour une question de diviser les équipements en deux-là parce que ça va coûter plus cher. Il y a des... il y a quand même des synergies.

5903 Alors comment assurer plus de transparence dans le... les étapes tarifaires?

5904 M. ALLEN: C’est un peu un défi que l’on pose au Conseil, de peut-être faire une réflexion. Parce qu’il suffit actuellement au fournisseur d’invoquer ---

5905 LE PRÉSIDENT: Des fois on a besoin d’aide pour trouver des idées.

5906 M. ALLEN: Je fais confiance à l’intelligence et à l’expérience des gens chez vous.

5907 Il y a eu un model tarifaire quand on était dans certains éléments, puis il y a des éléments de confidentialité également dans le cas du réseau 9-1-1 qui ne sont pas d’intérêt publique toujours, on peut le comprendre également.

5908 Il faudrait s’assurer que les gens qui doivent savoir certaines choses les sachent. Il faudrait savoir si c’est ce qui est nice to know et need to know là. C’est toujours cette balance entre les deux.

5909 Mais en même temps ne pas permettre qu’on sache par exemple combien les frais d’un réseau 9-1-1 rapporte à chaque année. Ça devrait être dans le rapport des télécommunications publiées à chaque année.

5910 Il est très... il n’est pas très bavard sur le 9-1-1 le rapport des télécommunications. Il n’y a pas... il pourrait avoir une petite section, avoir quelques éléments d’information. Un petit conseil là-dessus.

5911 LE PRÉSIDENT: Un peu comme on a fait dans... comme mentionné tout à l’heure dans l’instance le montant globalement pour ---

5912 M. ALLEN: Exactement. Moi je veux pas savoir combien Telus, ou Bell, ou Vidéotron reçoit, mais je veux savoir combien qu’il y a dans le pot pour ça et si on nous dit que les coûts augmentent bien qu’on sache quels sont les coûts réels, parce que là on a des revenus mais on n’a pas de coûts.

5913 Vous comprenez qu’en comptabilité je vais avoir une colonne de revenu, c’est intéressant, mais qu’est-ce que... quelle est ma colonne de coûts? Je ne l’ai pas.

5914 Fait que ça la colonne de coûts devrait joindre la colonne de revenu pour qu’on sache est-ce qu’il y en a assez, est-ce qu’il y en a trop, est-ce qu’il en manque, est-ce que le principe est que ça doit s’autofinancer sans plus, est-ce que ça peut être un centre de profits.

5915 Il manque certaines informations pour porter un jugement qui ne relève pas de nous, mais qui relève de vous comme tribulateur(phon.) du bien public. Donc est-ce que on... ici dans la mise en place du réseau 9-1-1 de nouvelle génération il y a des nouveaux coûts bien il faut savoir avant d’augmenter les tarifs il manque tant d’argent ou si on en manque pas. Est-ce qu’on en manque et si oui combien.

5916 Donc il faut connaitre les coûts et les revenus. Je ne sais pas si ça vous aide, mais je n’ai pas de réponse magique pour vous dire comment... parce que les avis tarifaires qui sont publiés c’est une section 17 que j’appelle plus obscure disons-là.

5917 Il faut... un énorme site que vous avez beaucoup d’informations sur pleins de choses. Si on suit les 1,900 fournisseurs puis qu’on... ça prend des gens à temps pleins pour suivre ça là.

5918 LE PRÉSIDENT: M’hm.

5919 M. ALLEN: Bon. D’ailleurs on proposerait dans nos documents que toutes les instances où il y aurait un tarif pour le 9-1-1 de nouvelle génération, peut-être faire une instance type avec Bell, Telus ou tous ensemble, comme vous voudrez et que ces questions-là soient débattues vraiment clairement, officiellement, avec une requête publiée, que tout le monde le sache et non pas apprendre qu’il y avait une requête tarifaire déposée dans le site de la page 7,222 tel jour.

5920 LE PRÉSIDENT: M’hm.

5921 M. ALLEN: Pour établir des principes. Je ne parle pas d’éléments techniques là comme le... les requêtes tarifaires que vous recevez à toutes les semaines il y en a de toute nature pour refléter le marché, des nouveaux services, et cetera, mais le 9-1-1 nouvelle génération devrait faire l’objet d’une instance particulière, je pense, et il devrait toujours être, du moins au début, claire, transparent, pour que les gens sachent de quoi on parle et ne pas permettre des documents caviardés à 90 pourcent comme on a vu dans certains cas.

5922 LE PRÉSIDENT: Vous mentionnez votre préférence évidemment pour utiliser les entreprises de services locaux titulaires, certains prétendent par contre qu’il y aurait plus de transparence si on allait par la voie d'un consortium.

5923 M. FOUCAULT: Malheureusement, on n'a pas vécu avec un consortium. Ça fait que c'est difficile de juger. Par contre, la robustesse, la clarté des réponses qu'on obtient du fournisseur titulaire en cas de problème, y a des -- également des avis qui sont donnés en cas de problème sur le réseau de 9-1-1 aux CASP qui sont concernés et ça va au-delà des obligations des entreprises de services locaux titulaires dans ce cas précis là.

5924 D'emblée, ils sont allés au-delà de leurs obligations pour aviser. Dans l'effet, si je -- s'il y a un village qui est isolé au niveau du service 9-1-1, ben le fournisseur de services titulaire va aviser le centre 9-1-1 qui couvre ce village-là. Et à l'usage, on a toujours eu des expériences favorables avec le fournisseur de services locaux titulaire.

5925 C'est pourquoi on demande pourquoi changer un modèle qui fonctionne et avec lequel ça va bien? On a déployé un paquet de nouveaux services au fil des dernières années. Le déploiement du réseau 9-1-1 s'est fait en 2003 au Québec et on couvre maintenant j'pense c'est 98 pour cent du territoire québécois, de la population québécoise. Ça s'est fait relativement rapidement en quelques années, en deux ou trois ans.

5926 Donc c'est un modèle qui fonctionne bien. Pour nous, c'est notre vision de la chose. Et quand y a des difficultés, on a un point de chute unique auquel on peut s'adresser et on a une réponse claire sur ce qui est -- ce qui est survenu pour mener à cette problématique-là.

5927 LE PRÉSIDENT: Et c'est important parce que ça vous permet de mieux dormir la nuit ou parce que c'est plus important pour les objectifs critiques de vos associa -- de votre travail ---

5928 M. FOUCAULT: Nous ce qu'on veut c'est livrer des services de secours aux citoyens qu'on sert. C'est la seule motivation. Par contre, je sais que cette nuit s'il survient quelque chose, je vais appeler. J'ai un contact et je vais être répondu en quelques secondes, pis i vont travailler rapidement à rétablir le tout. C'est une certitude qu'on a pis qui s'est développée au fil des ans.

5929 Malheureusement, le consortium il n'existe pas dans le moment et on se demande pourquoi exposer cette certitude. Surtout dans le domaine du 9-1-1, nous un appel perdu c'est un appel de trop. On fait des pieds et des mains pour rattraper le coup quand cela arrive.

5930 On a la philosophie de porter une ceinture et des bretelles. On veut s'assurer de toujours être prêt à toute éventualité et, dans le moment, les fournisseurs de services locaux titulaires nous ont prouvé qu'ils étaient prêts également à toute éventualité et qu'ils réagissaient rapidement à l'imprévu.

5931 M. BRABANT: À titre de référence, si on regarde présentement, l'état du Vermont aux États-Unis ont un ESInet installé depuis plusieurs années et sur un mode compétitif. Après cinq ans, ben ils ont été en appels d'offres pour avoir un autre -- un tarif meilleur. Ils ont eu un -- justement ils ont tout changé, toute la grille sur le ESInet sur un autre consortium qui leur fournissait le service.

5932 Dernièrement, ils ont vécu des pannes majeures dans lequel leur accès texto au 9-1-1 direct a été hors service pour l'état du Vermont pendant plusieurs jours.

5933 Si on regarde le modèle qu'ils ont employé, le modèle compétitif, d'ailleurs c'est à moindre coût. On va aller avec quelqu'un d'autre avec -- y a beaucoup de choses qui ont -- qui ont appuyé justement leur décision pourquoi ils ont changé mais on voit tous les résultats. Ils ont pas un fournisseur unique avec lequel, comme Pierre mentionnait tantôt, on a pu le faire.

5934 Ces informations-là en passant ont déjà été transmises au Conseil. De notre rôle qu'on joue au GTSU, on a aussi fourni l'information de tout ce qui se passe au niveau déploiement, au niveau de toutes ces activités, ces actions qui arrivent là.

5935 C'est un exemple concret de consortium à savoir qu'est-ce qui arrive dans un mode compétitif. Est-ce que c'est mieux pour les centres d'urgence ou pas? Mais dans ce cas-là pour les citoyens de perdre l'accès au texto 9-1-1 pendant plusieurs jours c'est quand même important de savoir.

5936 M. ALLEN: J'ajouterais un petit mot, Monsieur le président. On parle de consortium. Je suis un -- je n'étais pas là de vécu mais j'ai lu beaucoup de choses sur le passé. Y a déjà eu un consortium au Canada qui s'appelait Stentor et vous relierait les décisions que vous avez vous-même rendues le Conseil, pas vous comme président mais le Conseil. Ces gens-là s'opposait par exemple à ce que le service 9-1-1 soit acheminé avec les téléphones cellulaires, toutes sortes de choses. C'est vous qui avez obligé ça. Le consortium n'agissait pas pour le bien commun. Ça c'est une chose.

5937 Deuxième chose, le consortium si t'as un problème, quand même qu'on dirait dans les journaux le consortium machin truc, i se passe telle chose, si y a un gros problème chez TELUS, Bell ou Sasktel ou MTS qui a un problème, ces gens-là sont plus sensibles à leur image, à leur réputation. Un consortium c'est anonyme. Ce n'est personne. On se fout complètement du client.

5938 LE PRÉSIDENT: L'ironie c'est que le consortium Stentor était composé de ce qui est aujourd'hui les entreprises de services locaux titulaires. Bon ---

5939 M. ALLEN: Je sais. Je sais qu'il y a une ironie dans ce que je viens de vous dire mais sur le service, y avait pas un souci du service au client. Y avait un souci d'autres intérêts.

5940 LE PRÉSIDENT: Vous mettez beaucoup d'emphase -- pas beaucoup mais vous mettez une certaine emphase dans votre présentation que le fournisseur du réseau devrait être sous contrôle canadien.

5941 Évidemment, si on prend des entreprises de services locaux titulaires par l'entremise des règles de propriété étrangère, ils détiennent plus que 10 pour cent du marché, donc par le fait même sont des entreprises sous contrôle -- propriété de contrôle canadien.

5942 Plus tôt cette semaine, nous avons entendu ceux qui préconisaient la notion d'un consortium. Ils ne semblaient pas avoir d'objection qu'un soumissionnaire pourrait être une société sous contrôle non canadien.

5943 J'aimerais comprendre de votre point de vue pourquoi c'est si important -- c'est tellement important que le fournisseur serait sous contrôle et propriété canadienne?

5944 M. ALLEN: D'abord parce qu'on serait certain que les lois canadiennes s'appliquent, que les actifs de cette entreprise sont au Canada. Vous avez suivi au Conseil dans l'instance sur la résilience et la fiabilité tous les problèmes qu'il y a aux États-Unis à cause d'une multitude -- un enchevêtrement de fournisseurs, sous-fournisseurs, sous-traitants. Ça nous semble pas souhaitable.

5945 Deuxièmement, évidemment comme vous connaissez également la Patriot Act aux États-Unis qui prévoit que toutes données informatiques, tout, tout, tout peut être gardé, etcetera, on comprend que si vous appelez l'ambulance, c'est pas nécessairement un secret d'état. Mais on se demande si l'intérêt que le fait que ce soit une entreprise étrangère qu'ils aient accès à tout, il faut se poser des questions je pense que vous devrez explorer avec le Commissaire à la protection de la vie privée du Canada. Ça serait intéressant.

5946 Nous on pense qu'on est en mesure -- on n'est pas un si petit pays, on n'est pas si pauvre -- d'exiger que ce soit des entreprises canadiennes au Canada avec une imputabilité canadienne soumise aux lois canadiennes de A à Z, pas de faux-fuyant, pas d'impossibilité de trouver qui est responsable.

5947 LE PRÉSIDENT: Mais le fait demeure que même avec des entreprises canadiennes, y a une partie du trafic de l'information internet notamment qui transite beaucoup aux États-Unis et dont est assujettie au Patriot Act. Ça changera rien ça.

5948 M. FOUCAULT: Et par contre dans l'état actuel des choses, si on regarde dans le domaine du 9-1-1 quand on a besoin de coordonnés d'un abonné, un service sans fil par exemple, y a des obligations par décisions règlementaires de -- justement du CRTC qui nous permettent d'obtenir rapidement des informations des compagnies sans fil sur les données de l'abandonné.

5949 C'est sûr qu'il faut qu'on fasse un appel au service 24/7 mais c'est une obligation que le Conseil a donnée aux compagnies sans fil au Canada qui n'existe pas aux États-Unis et qui nous permet de réagir beaucoup plus rapidement pour servir les citoyens et d'envoyer des secours à nos citoyens.

5950 Ça peut être laborieux parfois mais c'est beaucoup plus efficace que d'appeler une compagnie qui fait de la voix sur IP aux États-Unis qui n'ont pas -- qui sont pas tenues d'avoir un service de réponse 24/7, qui ne sont pas tenues de nous répondre en vertu des lois canadiennes, des lois québécoises.

5951 Donc c'est pour ça qu'on trouve important que ça demeure au Canada pour nous permettre d'avoir un accès rapide et efficace à des données qui nous permettent d'aider les gens, de leur porter secours.

5952 LE PRÉSIDENT: Mais présumément dans le contexte d'un consortium, on pourrait établir toutes ces normes-là, y compris les normes de réponses 24/7, la langue de service, la disponibilité, non?

5953 M. FOUCAULT: Nous, comme je disais tout à l'heure, on a un modèle qui fonctionne, qui fonctionne relativement bien, et quand il fonctionne pas aussi bien qu'on voudrait, on a des instances qui nous permettent de l'améliorer.

5954 Dernièrement, on a eu un processus de lettre humanitaire qui a été discuté au GTSU parce qu'y avait eu des -- des préoccupations de maintien de la confidentialité des abonnés par les compagnies sans fil. Donc, tous les CASP, les ESLT, on a tous participé à établir un processus un peu plus serré, mais en même temps convivial, qui nous permet, encore là, d’obtenir des informations assez rapidement. De répéter, comme M. Veilleux disait, toutes les obligations actuelles vis-à-vis d’un consortium, d’après moi, ça va prendre un certain temps, alors qu’on a déjà du service et des obligations qui encouragent les gens à rendre un service 9-1-1 fiable pour les Canadiens.

5955 M. VEILLEUX: Si vous me permettez, aussi, c’est que lorsqu’on parle d’un consortium, on parle de diversité; quand on parle de diversité, on va amener dans notre monde 9-1-1 de l’incohérence. La cohérence, nous autres… pour nous autres, c’est très… c’est pas parce que… juste parce qu’on est bien dans nos vieilles pantoufles, mais on est habitués d’avoir quelque chose qui arrive comme cohérent de notre fournisseur actuel. Alors, quand c’est cohérent, ben, c’est plus facile d’intégration, c’est plus facile de compréhension, c’est plus facile de formation, et ça devient un outil qu’on peut utiliser rapidement.

5956 À chaque fois qu’on a approché des fournisseurs différents, peut-être aussi performants, mais différents, ben, y’avait d’autres philosophies d’utilisation, d’autres philosophies d’interface avec nous autres, et là, ça devenait plus complexe, ça devenait plus long, ça devenait plus ardu. C’est pour ça qu’on vise beaucoup la cohérence.

5957 Dans notre monde 9-1-1, y’a beaucoup d’héritage, on a construit ce système-là avec beaucoup d’années, hein, puis on ne voudrait pas perdre cet héritage-là puis être obligés de penser dans un hi-fi ou un RP de tout ce qu’il faut mettre pour conserver juste nos acquis; ça serait fastidieux comme effort et ça deviendrait contraignant pour un fournisseur. Alors, on se dit la cohérence de ça est déjà là. De continuer dans cette voie-là pour nous autres, c’est beaucoup plus… beaucoup plus concret.

5958 M. FOUCAULT: Pour ajouter à cela, si on pense au déploiement du nouveau réseau 9-1-1 qui a été fait au Québec récemment – là, on parle de 2015… 2014, 2015 –, le fait… le nouveau réseau de données, on a remplacé un système qui datait d’une trentaine d’années ou d’une vingtaine d’années, plutôt, par un nouveau système qui est beaucoup plus flexible, mais la sécurité de ce système-là a été pensée par l’entreprise de services locaux titulaire et, de bout en bout, donc, les différentes adresses, les plans d’adressage, toutes ces technicalités-là étaient sous l’égide d’une seule et même entité. Et, pour notre part, nous, nos gens de TI, posaient beaucoup de questions parce que c’est pas… même si le 9-1-1 au Québec est géré par une seule entité, les gens de TI des différentes… des différents CASP ne sont pas toujours familiers avec la réalité du 9-1-1, du réseau 9-1-1.

5959 Donc, on avait beaucoup de questions, à savoir : pourquoi le plan d’adressage est tel qu’il doit être fait pour pas compromettre le plan d’adressage des autres CASP, puis ces choses-là. Mais on a du personnel de l’entreprise de service local titulaire qui a été capable de parler avec nos gens de TI pour expliquer les raisons et le pourquoi, puis la conformité à la sécurité. Ils ont dû se plier à des normes de sécurité. Y’a 25 services de police au Québec qui gèrent des centres 9-1-1, des CASP, donc y’a des réalités de banques de données policières dont il fallait tenir compte dans la sécurité informatique que le ESLT, l’entreprise de services locaux titulaire, a tenu compte.

5960 À ce niveau-là, les centres qui sont… qui relèvent pas d’un service de police ont profité d’une sécurité informatique accrue ou ont dû s’adapter à une sécurité informatique accrue pour justement respecter toute la confidentialité qui doit être entre les banques de données du 9-1-1 et les banques de données policières pour s’assurer que les citoyens qui appellent au 9-1-1, leur confidentialité est respectée et est maintenue.

5961 Ça fait que c’est tous des aspects très particuliers au 9-1-1 qu’on ne retrouve pas nécessairement dans d’autres domaines. La mise sur pied d’un consortium, on ne voit pas le même souci de rendre les choses redondantes, robustes et confidentielles de la part des compagnies de téléphone autres que les ESLT. Peut-être parce qu’ils n’ont pas la responsabilité ultime du réseau 9-1-1 actuellement là, mais on ne le voit pas.

5962 LE PRÉSIDENT: J’aimerais me tourner vers les questions de coordination maintenant. C’est clair que vous envisagez que, surtout lorsqu’on va faire la transition, qu’il va avoir besoin d’avoir un peu plus de coordination à plusieurs niveaux.

5963 Il m’apparait aussi que y’a, si on peut dire, deux volets de considérations : y’a des considérations par rapport aux réseaux, puis y’a des considérations par rapport à la sécurité publique. Et bien que imparfait, le groupe de travail a quand même fourni un lieu de discussions, d’échanges qui mènent à des décisions, et donc, l’outil existe.

5964 Seriez-vous d’accord avec l’autre intervenant plus tôt qui semble avoir un vide du côté de la coordination sur l’aspect sécurité publique sur le plan national?

5965 M. FOUCAULT: Sur le plan national, je pense que le GTSU fait un bon travail, manque possiblement de ressources, et, comme on le mentionne dans notre document, malheureusement, les gens des CASP qui participent au GTSU, ben, c’est des ressources qui viennent de… qui proviennent de leur organisation, et déjà, la plupart du temps, sont très sollicités dans leur emploi…

5966 LE PRÉSIDENT: Je veux bien, mais mon point, c’est qu’on amène au groupe de travail des enjeux qui ne sont pas proprement des enjeux de télécommunication, qu’on est en train de discuter des enjeux de sécurité publique, et qu’il y a un vide de leadership du côté des ministres et des municipalités en sécurité publique pour créer un forum. Est-ce que vous êtes d’accord?

5967 M. ALLEN: Oui et non. Évidemment, le Canada est une fédération, c’est un grand pays, la situation varie d’une province à l’autre. Alors, je reprends l’exemple du Québec qui est celui dont on parle, nous avons une loi qui gère les centres d’appels d’urgence, nous avons un règlement sur les normes de performance, et les centres d’urgence doivent être certifiés périodiquement par le ministère de la Sécurité publique. C’est un processus public, des règlements publiés du gouvernement, un « regulation » là, pas de normes à l’intérieur. C’est la seule province qui a ça à ma connaissance. Y’a un mécanisme de financement.

5968 Je sais évidemment que nos amis ontariens souffrent d’une… sont un peu, vous l’avez souligné tantôt, un peu orphelins à plusieurs égards. Le besoin de coordination, parfois même à l’intérieur de la province, est plus intense à certains endroits. Nous n’avons pas ce même problème au Québec, par contre une coordination nationale sur le déploiement du NG… du 9-1-1 des prochaines générations, on pense… un peu comme le texto 9-1-1 a été fait d’ailleurs, y’avait des groupes de travail où j’étais dessus, et ç’a permis de faire des tests dans trois ou quatre régions du Canada, de publier des essais, d’apprendre ensemble, de donner de l’information, de partager une feuille de route avec tout le monde et d’atteindre des résultats. Le 9-1-1 de prochaine génération est un plus gros chantier qui va s’étendre sur de plus grandes… sur une plus grande période; néanmoins, qui a un certain aspect orphelin.

5969 C’est sûr que lorsque l’on regarde nos voisins américains, j’ai eu l’occasion de rencontrer le vice-amiral Simpson qui est responsable du Homeland Security Bureau au FCC, il est certain que eux s’occupent beaucoup de ça parce que l’aspect sécurité publique, et cetera, est très, très, très, très valorisé ou important aux États-Unis. Ici, Sécurité publique Canada ne joue aucun rôle par rapport au 9-1-1 à notre connaissance. La sécurité publique des provinces, ça varie d’un endroit à l’autre. Il pourrait peut-être y avoir une table nationale qui pourrait servir, mais vous l’avez vous-même mentionné dans l’instance sur la résilience, la fiabilité et tout ça, vous ne pouvez pas… le Conseil ne peut pas établir une table qui serait… avec une autorité quelconque, ça pourrait être une table de concertation, se parler, mais vous disiez dans une décision – j’ai la référence exacte avec le paragraphe :

5970 « Si une telle table est mise en place par les autorités provinciales, territoriales ou fédérales, nous participerons avec plaisir. »

5971 Mais vous n’êtes pas l’initiateur nécessairement.

5972 LE PRÉSIDENT: Le défi, c’est que, puisque nous on a une table pour les objectifs qui sont sous notre responsabilité et notre gouverne…

5973 M. ALLEN: Elle sert à plus de choses.

5974 LE PRÉSIDENT: …on a plein d’orphelins qui viennent traiter de toutes sortes d’autres enjeux et qui met en péril possiblement les enjeux critiques qui devraient être discutés à la table de travail sous l’égide du service.

5975 M. ALLEN: Le gouvernement canadien a lancé récemment une consultation sur le plan de sécurité nationale qui…

5976 LE PRÉSIDENT: On fait beaucoup de consultations ces jours-ci.

5977 M. ALLEN: Oui, je le sais, puis sur plein de sujets, mais, enfin, ç’a été publié récemment, le rapport… le rapport n’est pas publié, les ministres de la Sécurité publique et de la Justice ont dit que les résultats de la… seraient pris en compte… publiés en 2017. C’est un pénible exercice. Peut-être que, comme c’est une compétence provinciale, y’a peut-être pas beaucoup d’appétit au niveau fédéral pour prendre la responsabilité ou établir des normes dans un domaine, mais jouer un rôle de coordination nationale dans la perspective de la sécurité nationale, parce que les centres 9-1-1 sont le point d’entrée pour tout ce qui peut arriver, n’importe quelle situation. Si un camion fonce sur les piétons ici, si y’a une bombe qui saute à votre siège social, c’est le centre de Gatineau qui va recevoir l’appel.

5978 LE PRÉSIDENT: Mm-mm.

5979 M. ALLEN: Donc, il faut absolument que… peut-être que y’aurait un intérêt, mais on n’a pas ressenti aucun intérêt canadien à ce sujet. Je sais que le centre de…

5980 LE PRÉSIDENT: Vous savez, dans une autre vie, moi, j’ai travaillé dans le domaine fédéral/provincial, et puis notamment dans le domaine du sport et de la culture, vous pouvez imaginer que c’était particulièrement difficile parfois dans le domaine culturel, mais on trouvait quand même des solutions. On a créé une politique nationale du sport.

5981 M. ALLEN: Il y avait une volonté.

5982 LE PRÉSIDENT: Oui. Et du leadership.

5983 M. ALLEN: Voilà! Mais ça, évidemment, nous, on peut pas se plaindre au Québec, on a une loi, un règlement, un ministère qui nous encadre avec qui on a des tables de travail continuelles, un dialogue. Tout n’est pas parfait, mais, disons, tout va mieux qu’à plusieurs autres endroits.

5984 LE PRÉSIDENT: Vous mentionnez…

5985 M. FOUCAULT: J’aimerais rappeler…

5986 LE PRÉSIDENT: Oui, je vous en prie.

5987 M. BRABANT: J’aimerais rappeler quand même que y’a pas de dissociation entre les responsabilités que le Conseil a en matière de services 9-1-1 et le Service 9-1-1. Lorsque le service a été introduit en 1993 par… c’était encore à ce moment-là… le Service 9-1-1 était un partenariat, c’était un partenariat entre les fournisseurs de services. À ce moment-là, y’avait un fournisseur de services par province; par après, en 77, avec la décision 97-8, on a introduit la concurrence locale, on a introduit la portabilité, par après les services sans fil, mais c’était toujours un partenariat où les fournisseurs amenaient les appels au centre 9-1-1. Ils fournissaient une plateforme avec l’affichage…

5988 LE PRÉSIDENT: Je ne remets pas en question que y’a un partenariat. Le problème, c’est pas que le fédéral du côté télécommunications n’occupe pas son terrain. C’est le côté de sécurité publique qui m’inquiète.

5989 M. FOUCAULT: Je pense que y’a d’autres instances où y’a plusieurs associations au niveau de la sécurité publique qui travaillent à coordonner les efforts. Au niveau du Service 9-1-1, ç’a été principalement le GTSU qui s’est occupé de coordonner la mise en place des derniers services. Par contre, le sentiment, comme Serge… M. Allen le disait, au niveau du Québec, on a plusieurs instances qui travaillent déjà en partenariat. On a une association des centres, on a une agence municipale 9-1-1 qui permet des discussions avec les ministères, qui permet que tous les acteurs se coordonnent en quelque sorte.

5990 Au niveau national, oui, ce serait bien que la coordination soit renforcée, mais il faut se rendre compte qu’encore là le service sans fil phase II a été déployé à l’intérieur de deux ans, je crois, et le texto au 9-1-1 est en train de se déployer, puis c’est grâce au GTSU qui devra possiblement renforcer son rôle de coordination pour le déploiement des nouveaux services, mais on a déjà une instance…

5991 LE PRÉSIDENT: J’en conviens, mais…

5992 M. FOUCAULT: …qui permet de le faire.

5993 LE PRÉSIDENT: …mais on veut s’assurer qu’il concentre ses efforts et ses énergies sur des enjeux qui sont du ressort du Conseil et du côté réseau.

5994 M. BRABANT: Si je reprends, par exemple, le schéma, comme Pierre mentionnait, le déploiement du 9-1-1 pour les sans-fils, j’ai fait partie des équipes des groupes de travail aux côtés de NENA qui a sorti justement les différents modes. Aux États-Unis, y’a eu, selon les endroits, MCAST, Hybrid, y’a toutes les possibilités qui ont été faites et, aujourd'hui encore, Pierre mentionnait à plusieurs endroits qu’ils n’ont pas la phase II, plusieurs endroits n’ont même pas la phase I. Les sans-fils sont même pas capables de communiquer avec le 9-1-1.

5995 Au Canada, grâce au GTSU et la position qui a été prise, y’a une position unique. Selon les besoins de chacun des partenaires, à ce moment-là, pour les centres d’urgence, on a établi la solution hybride – à part une province, le Manitoba. Et on a été à même de décider, par le GTSU, à savoir le meilleur moyen d’intégrer ces nouvelles fonctionnalités-là qui sont utiles aujourd'hui pour tous les Canadiens. On mentionnait 70-75 % des appels maintenant sur sans-fil, si on peut s’imaginer qu’on n’est pas capable de localiser au moins approximativement dans quel secteur de la ville ils sont avec les solutions qui ont été mises de l’avant… y’a plusieurs moyens qui avaient été proposés par NENA, différents moyens ont été employés à différents endroits.

5996 Une des choses que souvent j’ai entendues lors des réunions de la NENA par les Américains était : « Vous avez choisi la bonne façon au Canada d’opérer », par… justement grâce à quoi? Grâce au GTSU, grâce à la position, aux partenariats, et la volonté de tout le monde de servir l’intérêt du 9-1-1. Et c’était… ç’a toujours été fait de façon appropriée, à moindres coûts pour tous, et surtout dans l’intérêt de la sécurité publique qui était là.

5997 Mais faut prendre en considération que, en allant dans le futur, ce qu’on entend dernièrement dans les médias : la cybersécurité. On n’en parle pas encore, on en parle très peu au GTSU, mais ça va être un élément critique avec tout ce qui s’en vient avec le 9-1-1 de prochaine génération, avec le mode IP, c’est incroyable tout ce qu’il va falloir avoir sur place. On regarde des appels d’offres aujourd'hui, y’en a des tonnes d’appels d’offres. J’en achemine régulièrement au personnel du CRTC pour les mettre au courant de ce qui se passe. Et, si on regarde l’élément de cybersécurité, de… en tout cas, je reviens beaucoup à celui-là parce que c’était les…

5998 LE PRÉSIDENT: Mais ça démontre peut-être mon… ça illustre peut-être mon point que, puisque c’est des enjeux de cybersécurité, faudrait peut-être que le ministère de la Sécurité publique du fédéral et des autres provinces ou l’équivalent là, soient au rendez-vous, non?

5999 M. VEILLEUX: Je pense que là-dessus vous avez raison. Vous parlez de manque de leadership, tantôt M. Allen parlait d’appétit; moi, je pense que c’est un manque de ressources, ressources financières. C’est vrai que GTSU a fait un travail, mais GTSU, c’est des gens qui sont volontaires, c’est des gens qui… la volonté est là, c’est sûr, c’est les moyens qui sont pas là. Et je sais pas si le Conseil peut, lui, mettre en place des choses qui vont amener des ressources pour faire ça puis s’assurer que…

6000 LE PRÉSIDENT: Le Conseil peut faire ce qui est de son ressort, mais devrait pas être en train d’utiliser ses ressources pour occuper le terrain qui a été laissé vide par d’autres leaders.

6001 M. FOUCAULT: Par contre, je dirais que j’ai de la difficulté à dissocier le réseau 9-1-1 du Service 9-1-1. Je pense que c’est un ensemble qui nous permet de secourir les citoyens canadiens lorsqu’ils en ont besoin, et les gens des CASP qui participent au GTSU soulèvent des enjeux qui ne sont pas nécessairement techniques ou de réseau, mais dont ils doivent tenir compte. On voit présentement certains… on voit du ransom-ware, on voit toutes sortes de choses qui surviennent, malheureusement, puis ils vont toucher aussi les CASP.

6002 Donc, on ne peut pas… on n’est plus dans le temps du filaire où on avait le contrôle sur à peu près tout, puis ça n’existera plus. Faut s’adapter, mais faut avoir un pas d’avance sur ceux qui veulent briser la confidentialité, ceux qui veulent compromettre le Service 9-1-1. C’est tous des points que des gens des CASP souvent, malheureusement, on n’a pas toute l’expertise nécessaire, mais c’est des points dont on est conscients qu’il faut soulever et, dans le développement du 9-1-1 de prochaine génération, il faut en tenir compte. Il faut qu’on soit là pour ne pas perdre les avantages qu’on a actuellement dans le Service 9-1-1 et faire en sorte de l’ouvrir, le Service 9-1-1, à des nouvelles technologies, à des nouvelles façons d’alerter les services d’urgence quand on en a besoin.

6003 M. ALLEN: Monsieur le Président, pour compléter, dans nos observations qui ont été déposées à l’instance, à l’article 4 de nos observations, nous disions… puis je pense que ça va dans la droite ligne de ce que vous avez évoqué, nous formulons une suggestion qui porte sur l’article 7 de la Loi sur les télécommunications, lequel énonce la politique canadienne en télécommunications :

6004 « Il n’y est nulle part prévu explicitement que l’un des objectifs est de s’assurer de la sécurité des Canadiens. En comparaison, la Loi constitutive du Federal Communications Commission aux États-Unis d’Amérique énonce, entre autres, parmi ses mandats : ‘For the purpose of promoting safety of life and property through the use of wire and radio communications.’»

6005 » Il serait probablement souhaitable que la loi canadienne soit modifiée afin d’asseoir clairement le pouvoir d’intervention du Conseil au besoin, si l’autre ministère ne s’y intéresse pas – parce que le FCC a un mandat de sécurité publique un peu plus développé –, particulièrement dans l’univers mouvant et multiforme, divers acteurs que pourrait constituer le Service 9-1-1 de prochaine génération. »

6006 Peut-être qu’il faudrait parler au ministre titulaire et, si un ministère n’a pas d’appétit, peut-être que l’autre pourrait le prendre, ou si aucun… si personne ne veut le prendre, vous aurez fait votre baroud d’honneur en…

6007 LE PRÉSIDENT: Oui. On aura l’occasion d’en discuter cet après-midi avec les représentants…

6008 M. ALLEN: Oui. Enfin, on l’a bien mentionné tel quel.

6009 M. BRABANT: Et peut-être juste aussi mentionner – pour mettre sur le record public –, le FCC, le 18, cette semaine, a publié justement un mémoire sur la cybersécurité, à savoir pour les fournisseurs, à savoir qu’est-ce qui était la… qu’est-ce qu’ils entrevoyaient pour l’avenir. Ce document-là, le dernier de ce document-là a été transmis à la Commission – en réalité, dans le cadre du GTSU, ces informations-là.

6010 Faut prendre en considération, d’ailleurs, que lorsqu’on parle de la sécurité des individus, les centres d’urgence sont là en bout pour recevoir les appels, mais c'est pour servir l'intérêt de l'appelant. L'abonné qui se sert d'un appareil filaire, sans fil, voix sur IP, ou quoi que ce soit qui sert au travers d'un revendeur, les personnes avec des systèmes téléphoniques à lignes multiples, les résidences de personnes âgées que maintenant sont desservies par ce genre d'appareil, leur sécurité d'introduire toutes sortes de nouveaux -- nouvelles capacités de IP avec toutes sortes de capacités, et capacités aussi pour les personnes malveillantes d'attaquer les réseaux, de mettre -- on peut pas ignorer. En réalité, le service 9-1-1, c'est un service de bout en bout.

6011 Si on regarde juste une partie dans ma -- dans ma cour où tout est propre, mais si je suis le seul sur toute la rue que ma cour est propre, j'ai un problème. Et c'est ça que nous on regarde le service toujours de bout en bout. C'est en travaillant en partenariat avec tous les intervenants.

6012 LE PRÉSIDENT: O.k. À la page 13 de votre présentation aujourd'hui -- et je vous demanderais là il faut accélérer là. C'est bien beau que vous avez tous un point de vue mais vous êtes là ensemble. Vous devriez coordonner vos réponses.

6013 Mais à la page 13, vous parlez de la transparence et l'absence de conflits d'intérêts. Est-ce que c'est un principe ou vous songez à un problème en particulier lorsque vous parlez de la nécessité d'éviter des conflits d'intérêts lors de la coordination nationale?

6014 M. ALLEN: Mais il faudrait s'assurer que les gens qui coordonnent, qui établissent les normes ne soient pas des revendeurs ou des consultants eux-mêmes pis qu'i recommandent de faire des choses qu'ils vendent par ailleurs. Il faudrait s'assurer de gens qui ne sont pas un rôle -- des rôles multiples là disons.

6015 Évidemment les gens là-dedans ont des vies à part le groupe de travail mais un minimum disons d'éthique-là. I devrait y avoir un minimum d'engagement ---

6016 LE PRÉSIDENT: J'comprends mais vous songez pas à une situation précise qui est déjà survenue?

6017 M. ALLEN: Non, non, non, pas du tout. C'est un principe général qui devrait être établi qui a pas de ---

6018 LE PRÉSIDENT: Je comprends.

6019 M. BRABANT: On a entendu hier un des fournisseurs nous dire, par exemple, que le consortium, selon leur vision du terme consortium, serait seulement des fournisseurs de services téléphoniques. Donc à ce moment-là pour servir -- avoir les obligations pour servir le 9-1-1 mais dans lequel les centres d'urgence, les municipalités n'auraient pas place. Donc ---

6020 LE PRÉSIDENT: Et donc vous vous sentez pas interpellés dans une -- dans un tel modèle parce que vous n'avez pas droit au chapitre.

6021 M. BRABANT: Mais c'est pour fournir -- si on regarde y a une décision qui a été rendue dernièrement par le Conseil, 2016-453, dans laquelle tout le processus de décision a été pris mais jamais les centres d'urgence ou les municipalités responsables du service ont été interpellés ou approchés pour discuter du problème. On a d'ailleurs déposé une partie I. On va s'en tenir à là justement qui est dire nos intérêts étaient où à ce moment-là, étaient représentés de quelle façon.

6022 LE PRÉSIDENT: Oui. On n'est pas là pour discuter de ce dossier-là puis on va en traiter en temps et lieu.

6023 Par rapport aux normes, je suis curieux de vos pratiques actuelles par rapport à des "service level agreeements" comme on dit. Est-ce que vous considérez que c'est une bonne pratique? Est-ce que c'est une pratique que vous avez à l'heure actuelle? Et ça sert quel objectif principalement?

6024 M. FOUCAULT: On parle des SLA qui sont signés avec les fournisseurs de services locaux concurrentiels.

6025 LE PRÉSIDENT: C'est ça, oui.

6026 M. FOUCAULT: Au Québec maintenant, le SLA de par la nouvelle loi qui a introduit la taxe municipale 9-1-1, les SLA sont devenus obsolètes parce que toutes les compagnies -- y a pus de SLA ---

6027 LE PRÉSIDENT: Dans la structure québécoise ce n'est pas pertinent mais ce l'était un moment donné pour quel but?

6028 M. FOUCAULT: Ce l'a été -- ç'a été -- y avait beaucoup de difficultés avec les SLA parce que, au fur et à mesure que les fournisseurs se sont multipliés, y a 1,100 municipalités québécoises. Fait que vous imaginez que tous les fournisseurs devant signer avec les municipalités un SLA pour le service 9-1-1, ben c'était -- ça avait été une boîte de Pandore qui avait été ouverte avec l'arrivée des fournisseurs de services locaux concurrentiels. Et à l'époque c'est pourquoi on a -- l'association québécoise a travaillé très fort à obtenir une loi qui a créé la taxe municipale qui a rendu obsolète les SLA.

6029 LE PRÉSIDENT: Bon, une bonne solution au Québec parce que vous aviez identifié une difficulté mais évidemment ça sera peut-être pas le choix politique dans d'autres juridictions.

6030 Est-ce que vous avez des avis et conseils à nous fournir -- je sais que c'est pas nécessairement la situation du Québec -- par rapport à la nécessité de créer des normes objectives de résultat plutôt que simplement de diligence, telles qu'on a à l'heure actuelle, pour les normes de résilience et de fiabilité?

6031 M. FOUCAULT: Et au Québec ç'a été au-delà justement du financement. Ç'a été également un processus de certification pour les centres 9-1-1, donc pour les CASP qui doivent -- les primaires qui doivent se conformer à 22 articles du règlement portant sur la formation, le délai de réponse, le délai de traitement des appels. Donc c'est assez vaste.

6032 LE PRÉSIDENT: Est-ce qu'on devrait s'en inspirer?

6033 M. FOUCAULT: Je pense que oui. Je pense que l'Alberta s'en est inspiré d'ailleurs et nous on s'est inspiré des provinces maritimes quand ç'a été créé. Donc ---

6034 M. VEILLEUX: Pas le réseau. Le réseau est pas soumis à ça.

6035 M. FOUCAULT: Par contre, le réseau n'est pas soumis à ça, comme Monsieur Veilleux disait.

6036 LE PRÉSIDENT: Oui. Je vous rappellerais d'utiliser votre micro. C'est plus facile pour les sténographes.

6037 M. VEILLEUX: D'accord. Alors, ce que je disais c'est que le réseau n'est pas soumis par les lois provinciales à des normes de performance. Ce serait plus au CRTC de le faire pour le réseau. Pour ce qui est de l'autre côté de la clôture qui est la sécurité publique, ça s'est fait pis on pense que c'est relativement bien fait.

6038 M. FOUCAULT: Et si je peux me permettre de souligner au Conseil, dans le tarif actuel, y a des conditions de redondance et de robustesse qui sont pour les CASP primaires qui ne s'appliquent pas aux CASP secondaires. Nous sommes d'avis qu'il faudrait étendre la robustesse et la redondance aux CASP secondaires et on devrait travailler à améliorer la robustesse du réseau dans son ensemble du territoire canadien.

6039 LE PRÉSIDENT: Comme enjeu de télécommunication.

6040 M. FOUCAULT: Comme enjeu de télécommunication et pour permettre au réseau de mieux supporter les -- le service 9-1-1.

6041 LE PRÉSIDENT: La transition vers des réseaux nouvelle génération va se faire à différentes vitesses un peu partout au pays. J'imagine que vous préconisez qu'on doit aller à la vitesse -- une vitesse raisonnable. Vous l'avez dit ici, mais que -- avec la nécessité par contre d'avoir des projets pilotes.

6042 Sans nécessairement décider où les projets pilotes devraient avoir lieu, pourriez-vous partager votre vision à ce qu'on devrait être en train de tester lorsqu'on fait des projets pilotes?

6043 M. FOUCAULT: Pour notre part, à Montréal, on a participé aux essais pour le développement et le déploiement du texto 9-1-1 qui se sont faits en 2010 et je pense que les projets pilotes devraient être sur une base volontaire dans une -- avec un CASP ou un modèle, plusieurs modèles de CASP autant que possible.

6044 Y a des CASP qui desservent plusieurs municipalités. Y a des CASP qui servent une seule municipalité. Donc on devrait utiliser les deux modèles lorsqu'on déploie et ça devrait impliquer également des CASP secondaires, donc l'ensemble de la variété qu'on peut retrouver dans les CASP pour nous permettre d'évaluer toutes les -- toutes les formes possibles et imaginables de communications qui vont vers les centres d'urgence parce que ce sera pas nécessairement du vocal à long terme. Ça peut être du texto et quelles formes, je peux pas les imaginer à l'heure actuelle. Il va sûrement y avoir d'autres ou de nouvelles formes de communications. Donc pour avoir une certaine variété pour permettre aux pilotes d'avoir des enseignements pour le déploiement suite aux pilotes.

6045 Je sais pas si ça répond à la question.

6046 LE PRÉSIDENT: Oui, puis j'imagine aussi que par la même occasion que c'est le groupe de travail qui serait bien situé pour définir les critères et peut-être même faire le suivi de ces essais.

6047 M. FOUCAULT: Actuellement ç'a toujours été vis le groupe de travail, pis ç'a bien fonctionné à mon avis. Pour notre part, bien qu'on ait été parmi ceux qui ont participé aux essais pour le développement du nouveau service, ben quand le nouveau service a été disponible, nos systèmes n'étaient pas prêts encore parce que malheureusement -- ben, malheureusement, on vit avec une réalité parfois que le financement municipal peut être -- souvent c'est sur une période de trois ans. C'est des plans triennaux et il faut le prévoir à l'avance.

6048 Donc il faut -- et d'après nous, ç'a été somme toute assez concerté quand on a déployé le texto 9-1-1 au Québec. Y a plusieurs centres qui l'ont fait d'un coup et ça s'est fait à l'intérieur d'une année pour l'ensemble du territoire. Mais on essayait de le faire de façon concertée par région parce que c'est un souci que nous avions.

6049 Malheureusement, ç'a pas été rapide dans notre cas à Montréal là mais ça s'est fait quand même assez rapidement si on regarde l'ensemble du pays.

6050 M. VEILLEUX: Pis il est aussi important de -- quand on fait comme le texto au 9-1-1 de peut-être faire des essais dans un milieu francophone. On a eu des petits problèmes d’accents avec le Texto-9-1-1.

6051 LE PRÉSIDENT: On en a entendu parlé. Vidéotron nous a mentionné.

6052 M. VEILLEUX: Alors je pense que c’est... tous les services pourraient être testés dans les deux environnements bilingues du Canada, parce que ça quand même un ---

6053 LE PRÉSIDENT: Est-ce qu’un test dans une région urbaine et rurale ou quasi-rurale serait important aussi?

6054 M. FOUCAULT: Bien c’est pour ça que je mentionnais tout à l’heure que bon une région urbaine qui sert une seule municipalité et par contre en région rurale souvent M. Veilleux, CAUCA, si ils servent 500... plus de 500 municipalités, donc ça donne une échelle de... différente-là pour le service 9-1-1.

6055 LE PRÉSIDENT: Vous envisagez ce genre de projet pilote de se déployer dans quel horizon de temps?

6056 M. FOUCAULT: Je pense les services de police de Toronto parlaient de 2018-2019. Dans le moment il y a plusieurs standards qui ne sont pas encore définis.

6057 Souvent M. Brabant mentionnait NENA. Il faut décider d’une architecture, il faut décider des standards qui vont être utilisés, donc c’est tout en train de se discuter.

6058 Oui 2018-2019 ça peut être les premières... les premières étapes, mais il va falloir agir rapidement à ce moment-là.

6059 M. BRABANT: Il faut prendre en considération présentement au GTSU nous avons la tâche 82 qui est ouverte, concernant justement les réseaux IP des services d’urgence, les ESI Net, et aussi les fonctionnalités cœur du futur réseau NG 9-1-1.

6060 On a trois paramètres qu’on a établi, à court terme, à moyen terme et à long terme, donc les projets pilotes vont devoir justement être apparenté avec ces... il va avoir pas un ou une série, il va avoir plusieurs échelonnés selon les... la disponibilité des fonctionnalités de technologie.

6061 Présentement on travaille avec la norme NENA i3 version 1. L’année passée NENA a approuvez la version 2 et présentement il y a un groupe de travail dont Monsieur Caron fait partie, travaille sur la norme i3 version 3, incluant le multimédia.

6062 Donc il y a des choses qu’on a de disponibles qu’on pourrait aussitôt que les technologies le permettent faire des essais, mais il y a d’autres choses que tant que le... que justement les normes ne sont pas disponibles, que les réseaux ne sont pas établis, que les appareils des usagers n’ont pas la capacité de supporter ces nouvelles fonctionnalités-là, donc il y a plusieurs en réalité c’est une réponse multiple à multiples facettes.

6063 LE PRÉSIDENT: Donc un très gros projet avec des sous-projets qui nécessiterons l’amérage de tout ça?

6064 M. VEILLEUX: Oui et peut-être avant tout une étude de besoins complète. C’est peut-être pour ça qu’on a de la difficulté à trancher entre ce qui va dans le côté réseau puis le côté sécurité public. C’est peut-être parce qu’on ne les a jamais mis sur un papier pour les diviser dans deux groupes.

6065 Puis nous autres on pense qu’une étude de besoins complète devrait précéder les normes, parce que si on ne sait pas qu’est-ce qu’on veut de le normaliser c’est un peu difficile.

6066 Puis cette étude exhaustive-là des besoins aurait sa place au Canada.


6068 M. VEILLEUX: Nous on pense ça. Fait que c’est pour ça qu’on dit ça en réalité.

6069 LE PRÉSIDENT: Sauf que d’autres vont dire que on ne connait seulement ce qu’on connait et puis si on bâti des normes basées sur ce qu’on pense être le 9-1-1 aujourd’hui, on risque de fermer la porte dans l’architecture par rapport à des choses qui doivent survenir.

6070 Je donne l’exemple que je ne pense pas qu’un régulateur des services de transport aurait il y a 5 à 10 ans par le passé eu dans son plan de travail Uber.

6071 M. VEILLEUX: M’hm.

6072 LE PRÉSIDENT: Et le risque c’est qu’on... par inadvertance on ferme la porte à l’innovation.

6073 M. VEILLEUX: Mais on pense aux besoins actuels et futurs. Pas seulement que les besoins immédiats-là. Je pense il faut envisager ça sur une plus longue période.

6074 M. BRABANT: Si on regarde juste au niveau de l’acheminement des appels, présentement tout est basé sur des normes statiques.

6075 C’est pour ça d’ailleurs qu’on a intégré le sans fils au réseau en étant une norme statique basée sur la cellule, l’antenne, le secteur de la cellule qui captait l’appel à tel moment et où en général l’appel va être acheminé.

6076 Aujourd’hui le 9-1-1 prochaine génération si on devait établir un pilote serait toujours sur cette notion d’acheminement par défaut, tandis que la vision à long terme du 9-1-1 prochaine génération c’est d’acheminer les appels.

6077 Autrement dit l’appelant lorsqu’il va appeler 9-1-1 lui il va décider où est-ce qu’il s’en va selon toutes les données qui vont être bâties dans le réseau, donc l’acheminement total.

6078 Ce sont toutes des concepts qui présentement n’ont... ne sont pas... sont à l’époque hypothétique. Ils sont dans des plans à long termes, mais qui doivent être justement discutés et d’avoir vu ça ça l’a une incidence directement au niveau réseau, parce que là c’est le réseau qui va décider où l’appel va aller, quelle information va transiter avec l’appel.

6079 Le centre 9-1-1 n’ira plus chercher l’information dans une base de données à part d’une information par exemple si on veut aller chercher... on a un flag qui va nous dire quel vidéo aller chercher si on a besoin de le voir, quelle photo, mais tout le restant va transiter du côté de l’appelant, va résider dans le réseau IP et ça va être... l’information va être là.

6080 Tous ces concepts là doivent être mis sur papier. Ça n’a pas été discuté encore au GTSU.

6081 LE PRÉSIDENT: Vous dites dans votre présentation, plus particulièrement à la page 10, qu’il va falloir procéder sans doute par étape, mais sans laisser trainer les choses entre celles-ci.

6082 N’existe-t-il pas un risque que les CASPs secondaires retardent la transition?

6083 M. FOUCAULT: À ma connaissance il y a... au Québec il n’a pas eu de retard causé par les CASPs secondaires dans le déploiement des derniers services.

6084 Ça été comme le service Toronto mentionné. Il y a certains CASPs secondaires au Québec présentement qui sont capables de faire du texto au 9-1-1.

6085 Il y a d’autres CASPs secondaires qui ne sont pas capables de faire du texto au 9-1-1, mais à ce moment-là le primaire prend la relève pour s’assurer.

6086 Dans le cellulaire phase 2, à ma connaissance il n’y a pas de CASP secondaire qui a retardé le déploiement, par contre au Québec ils sont peut-être moins nombreux qu’il y en a en Ontario.

6087 LE PRÉSIDENT: Et la loi cadre vous aide plus ---

6088 M. FOUCAULT: La loi cadre ne... bien ne gère pas tous les CASPs secondaires. Les gens de santé en sont exclus, parce qu’ils sont régis par le Ministère de la santé et services sociaux.

6089 Donc à ce moment-là... mais ce n’est pas arrivé. Je pense qu’on a des bons partenariats. Certains CASPs primaires font aussi lieux de CASPs secondaires. J’en ai un bon exemple à ma gauche.

6090 Donc souvent c’est intégré et j’ai... on n’a pas eu de retard dû aux CASPs secondaires dans le déploiement d’un nouveau service. Pas au Québec.

6091 LE PRÉSIDENT: Oui. J’imagine vous ne voulez pas Monsieur Barrette en train de gérer le 9-1-1?

6092 M. FOUCAULT: Je ne commenterai pas.

6093 LE PRÉSIDENT: Bon vous mentionnez la transition au Texto-9-1-1 qu’on a déjà eu dans le système actuel. Le... il y a eu un défi de... puis je ne commenterai pas que... si ça été un succès ou non, mais c’était quand même un défi auquel qu’on préconisait qu’il y a un problème de communication au public par rapport à la disponibilité lorsqu’on a un déploiement qui est à plusieurs vitesses.

6094 Est-ce qu’il y a des leçons à en tirer pour le prochain déploiement, comment communiquer et quand communiquer les nouvelles façons d’entrer en contact avec les services 9-1-1.

6095 M. FOUCAULT: Dans le cas particulier du Texto-9-1-1 on faisait face à ce qu’on appelle une communauté qui n’en n’est pas une. C’est ce qu’on a découvert par les commentaires au GTSU.

6096 Pour notre part à Montréal on ne peut pas dire qu’il y a un point de chute pour toutes les personnes sourdes, malentendantes ou avec difficultés d’élocution, pour l’ensemble du territoire Québécois ou pour l’ensemble du territoire Montréalais.

6097 C’est une multitude d’associations qui regroupent ces gens-là et ça peut aller jusqu’à distinguer les personnes qui sont nées sourdes, des personnes qui sont devenues sourdes.

6098 Il y a plusieurs distinctions, puis c’est une réalité qu’on ne connaissait pas qu’on a apprise et qu’on s’est donné des mesures pour communiquer le mieux possible avec ces gens-là.

6099 Malheureusement le défi de communiquer comme le service au niveau du réseau il était disponible en même temps partout à travers le pays suite à une décision du Conseil justement qu’on a beaucoup apprécié parce que ça nous permet d’avoir une... une certaine coordination.

6100 Par contre les municipalités n’étaient pas toutes prêtes à cause du processus d’acquisition qui peut durer jusqu’à deux, trois ans dans certains cas-là. Certains centres ont dû changer leurs systèmes, certains centres ont dû réécrire du code pour permettre le texto au 9-1-1.

6101 Il y avait tout le réseau 9-1-1 qui... le nouveau réseau de données qui devait être déployé avant de pouvoir offrir le service.

6102 Donc il y avait un paquet de facteurs. C’est le premier jalon du 9-1-1 de première génération qu’on a déposée avec le Texto-9-1-1, selon moi.

6103 LE PRÉSIDENT: Oui et si le Conseil n’avait pas créé une date de tombée, ces municipalités-là sont en train d’étudier les possibilités…

6104 M. FOUCAULT: On serait peut-être pas tombés à l’heure actuelle.

6105 LE PRÉSIDENT: Oui. Mais quelles leçons doit-on en tirer pour la prochaine génération?

6106 M. FOUCAULT: Il faut communiquer lorsque le service est disponible. On ne peut pas se permettre de communiquer à l’avance. Les tests pour les essais ont été faits en 2010 et le service a été déployé à beaucoup d’endroits en 2015.

6107 Lors des essais, on a créé des attentes et on était en communication avec des associations de personnes sourdes/malentendantes, et quand qu’on fait des essais, on crée des attentes. Faut raccourcir le plus possible le délai entre les essais et la livraison du nouveau service et il faut communiquer, une fois que le service est rendu disponible, en s’assurant que quelqu’un qui se promène en voiture, traverse un pont, ben, que le service d’un côté et de l’autre côté du pont soit disponible. On voudrait surtout pas qu’une personne ait l’illusion que le service est disponible partout, il se ramasse à faire le 9-1-1, puis y’a aucun secours qui lui sont acheminés. C’était ça notre préoccupation première dans la coordination de la mise en service.

6108 LE PRÉSIDENT: Mais lorsque vous avez une tradition (phon.) nationale, ça va être encore pire, parce que le Nouveau-Brunswick pourrait vouloir déployer, tandis qu’en Gaspésie, ça sera pas prêt encore.

6109 M. FOUCAULT: Y’a certaines places que c’était déployé à la grandeur de la province d’un seul coup. Ça, c’est un avantage qu’on a eu à certaines provinces. Malheureusement, au Québec, on n’a pas pu le faire comme ça.

6110 Monsieur Veilleux?

6111 M. VEILLEUX: Une des choses aussi qui est peut-être intéressante, c’est que, oui, ç’a été un peu compliqué d’annoncer ça au public, au grand public, que ce nouveau service-là était en place, mais ç’a été tout aussi surprenant pour les petits centres du Québec qui, eux, n’étaient pas préparés à la venue du texto 9-1-1, qui ont dû s’adapter à une vitesse… si on avait… si cette coordination-là qu’on parle d’aider les centres à comprendre ce qui va arriver avec le texto 9-1-1, oui, mais encore plus avec le 9-1-1 de prochaine génération qui va amener beaucoup plus de changement. C’est pour ça qu’on disait il faut instruire un peu les centres, les préparer à ça parce que, effectivement, y’ont pas pu se retourner de bord puis être là à la bonne date au rendez-vous. Les gros centres le savaient, Montréal le savait, nous autres on le savait puis on était prêts, mais je pense que c’est là qu’on parle de coordination avec les centres pour qu’ils puissent comprendre qu’est-ce qui va arriver puis dans quel calendrier que ça va arriver, comme ça ils vont pouvoir se préparer à la venue des nouvelles affaires.

6112 M. ALLEN: Le système fédéral fait aussi que les provinces nous… le ministère de la Sécurité publique du Québec n’a pas joué un rôle très actif dans le texto 9-1-1. Ce sont des associations de centres d’urgence et les centres d’urgence eux-mêmes qui ont décidé de se donner un échéancier, de livrer telle date, et cetera.

6113 Et on parlait tantôt d’appétit, bon, ça semblait être un… c’était pas leur juridiction, mais ils auraient pu jouer un rôle de leadership pour aider les personnes handicapées. Le gouvernement provincial s’occupe des offices de personnes…

6114 LE PRÉSIDENT: Y’a même des soins québécois avec, dans ce cas-là, avec des…

6115 M. ALLEN: Exactement.

6116 LE PRÉSIDENT: …des troubles d’accessibilité.

6117 M. ALLEN: Donc là, nous, on a commencé à entendre… on trouvait que y’avait, bon, dans certaines… les provinces ont eu leur réalité, mais le gouvernement provincial aurait pu là – le gouvernement avec un grand « G » là, au sens large – décider que c’était un dossier important puis qu’il coordonnait, qu’il poussait. Y’a eu mêmes des organismes comme l’Office des personnes handicapées qu’on a mentionné dans nos observations…

6118 LE PRÉSIDENT: Je pense que y’a des citoyens qui sont pas mal tannés de pas avoir les résultats des services publics parce que y’a des chicanes de juridiction ou des absences de joueurs à la table.

6119 M. FOUCAULT: Ben, je pense… j’ai pas… dans ce service-là, j’ai pas vu de chicanes de juridiction comme telles. Par contre, il faudrait mentionner également que l’Association canadienne de téléphonie sans fil a développé plusieurs outils en collaboration avec les CASP pour justement informer le public. La difficulté était qu’on ne voulait pas, en tant que quantité, informer le public que le service est disponible alors qu’il ne l’était pas. Il fallait être prêt à offrir le service pour le publiciser.

6120 Et j’aimerais également mentionner les entreprises de services locaux titulaires qui ont fait plusieurs activités pour informer les CASP de la nature et de la venue du service, de la disponibilité du service.

6121 M. BRABANT: Une des choses aussi qu’on a remarquées lors du déploiement du texto 9-1-1, au Québec en particulier, on avait une personne-interface-ressource avec qui on faisait affaire. Malheureusement, cette organisation-là a perdu son financement, on a perdu la personne-ressource, et ce qu’on a appris aussi, c’est que ce ne sont pas toutes par exemple les personnes sourdes/malentendantes, et toutes les différentes catégories, qui sont membres de ces regroupements, donc qui sont informées. Il reste une responsabilité au niveau des fournisseurs qui, eux, fournissent l’accès à ces services-là d’informer leur clientèle et de leur fournir le soutien technique.

6122 Personnellement, j’ai été dans des sites, dans les grandes surfaces où est-ce que y’avait plusieurs centres, et je leur posais des questions sur le texto 9-1-1. Il était à ce moment-là établi, et les préposés là-bas n’avaient aucune idée à savoir qu’est-ce que c’était. Je leur fournissais l’information : « Allez voir sur le site de l’ACTS pour savoir c’est quoi puis questionnez vos compagnies. »

6123 Donc, y’a tout un processus. Lorsqu’on dit des informations, les personnes en ligne qui interfacent avec les usagers doivent l’avoir. Il devrait y avoir plus d’interaction dans ce domaine-là.

6124 M. BRABANT: Et pour mentionner également, le texto 9-1-1 était probablement le plus grand défi de communication pour un nouveau service parce qu’on parle non seulement des deux langues officielles au niveau du Québec, on parle de l’American Sign Language, du Langage des signes du Québec, en français, en anglais, et on a remarqué également que les personnes sourdes/malentendantes aiment beaucoup être accompagnées quand elles s’inscrivent au service. Donc, c’est un ensemble de facteurs qui ont fait en sorte que la communication du nouveau service était plus difficile. On peut pas simplement passer à la radio pour annoncer le nouveau service.

6125 LE PRÉSIDENT: Avec une communauté en plus qui a, par le fait même, des problèmes de communication.

6126 M. FOUCAULT: À la base, donc…

6127 LE PRÉSIDENT: À la base, oui.

6128 Donc, c’est clair de ce que j’entends, vous pouvez me le confirmer –, mais que vous pensez qu’après la voix, qui va demeurer un élément important dans la nouvelle génération, que le prochain candidat pour la nouvelle génération serait des textos d’une forme quelconque, n’est-ce pas?

6129 M. FOUCAULT: Si je me fie à mes enfants, parce que, moi, je ne suis pas de la génération du pouce là, ils communiquent de plus en plus avec… les téléphones intelligents, c’est quand même assez récent, et on regarde notre personnel dans nos centres de communication, ils communiquent de plus en plus avec… par textos, c’est une évidence pour moi, donc va falloir que ce service-là soit…

6130 LE PRÉSIDENT: Les fameux téléphones dits « intelligents ».

6131 M. FOUCAULT: Oui, oui, ben, parce que l’individu n’a pas nécessairement besoin de l’être.

6132 LE PRÉSIDENT: On l’a bien vu à plusieurs égards.

6133 Mais vous envisagez, par rapport au service texto, un cadre de certification de ce qui serait acceptable ou pas comme service texto?

6134 M. FOUCAULT: C’est parce que y’avait plusieurs applications qui ont été développées…

6135 Je j’excuse, Serge.

6136 LE PRÉSIDENT: J’imagine que vous allez… vous présumez que…

6137 M. FOUCAULT : Tel que « Find-me-9-1-1 ».

6138 LE PRÉSIDENT: Mais que le SMS puis ces genres de normes là vont rencontrer les normes de localisation et autres que vous recherchez, c’est vraiment pour les autres applications, que ce soit WhatsApp ou les autres là.

6139 M. FOUCAULT: Et je me permettrais que les SMS dans le moment n’est pas à la hauteur des attentes de quelqu’un qui contacte le 9-1-1 parce qu’un message SMS, y’a pas de garantie qu’il soit livré dans un délai raisonnable.

6140 LE PRÉSIDENT: D’accord.

6141 M. FOUCAULT: Donc, faut que le service SMS, si c’est ça qui est utilisé, soit amélioré. Il faut… y’a des applications intéressantes qui sont développ0ées, je pense à RapidSOS, par exemple – y’a un essai qui va se faire avec plusieurs compagnies –, qui permet de localiser l’endroit par GPS, puis ça correspond aux attentes des gens qui utilisent un téléphone intelligent. Vous savez, bien souvent au 9-1-1, on se fait dire : « Ben oui, vous savez où est-ce que je suis. » Ben là, on a une coordonnée longitude/latitude avec un rayon d’incertitude d'un kilomètre.

6142 LE PRÉSIDENT: Mais, par rapport au service texto livré par des services de contournement, vous envisagez quand même… c’est pour ça que vous envisagez un processus de certification. Ça ressemblerait…

6143 M. FOUCAULT: Ben, ça devrait rencontrer au moins certaines contraintes et… dans le 9-1-1 là, c’est la localisation qui…

6144 LE PRÉSIDENT: Je comprends. Je voulais savoir qui définit ces contraintes-là et qui les évaluent.

6145 M. ALLEN: Ça devrait être l’autorité règlementaire qui devrait être vous-même. Le Conseil établit par le groupe de travail qu’est-ce qu’on peut faire, ça peut être par étapes. On ne trouvera pas nécessairement les réponses à tout, à la première rencontre, mais… aux États-Unis, y’a des organismes qui jouent un rôle…

6146 LE PRÉSIDENT: Oui, mais il faut que le Conseil…

6147 M. ALLEN: règlementaire : NENA, l’ATCO (phon.), et cetera…

6148 LE PRÉSIDENT: Oui. Je suis pas convaincu que nous sommes l’instance règlementaire pour les applications.

6149 M. ALLEN: Non, non, mais lorsqu’ils communiquent avec le réseau 9-1-1, je sais que toutes les questions de juridiction, puis c’est… mais parfois, faut faire preuve d’audace et le faire, ne serait-ce que pour le fait que si y’a la certification CRTC, c’est un plus, et ça va être accepté par tout le monde. Si elle n’existe pas, si quelqu’un ne l’obtient pas, son chemin sera plus difficile.

6150 M. FOUCAULT: Si je peux me permettre, lorsque… les premiers sans fil qui ont été déployés, peut-être vous vous souvenez de ça c’est avec un clavier. Et quand on pesait sur le 9 pendant quelques secondes, ça communiquait avec le 9-1-1. C’est une réalité avec laquelle on a dû vivre à l’époque et c’est pas par voie réglementaire que ç’a disparu. Ç’a été par la voie de la conviction ou de convaincre les compagnies de cellulaires d’arrêter de faire des appareils avec le 9 en rouge qui permettait d’appeler le 9-1-1, parce que nous on recevait une foison d’appels qui étaient... les gens n’étaient même pas conscients qu’ils avaient appelé au 9-1-1. On vit encore le même genre de problème aujourd’hui dans certains cas, comme les appels d’urgence, mais encore là, il y a des organismes, des associations qui développent des standards pour des applications, des fois d’avoir le renforcement.

6151 Voilà quelques années, l’internet, ça n’existait pas ou c’était dans des milieux particuliers. Le texto n’existait pas il y a quelques années. Donc c’est toutes des choses qui nous arrivent.

6152 Le seul organisme canadien qui regarde les télécommunications c’est le Conseil de radio et télécommunications du Canada.

6153 Donc on ne voit pas quelle instance... peut-être Industrie Canada, encore là, qui pourrait réglementer là-dessus, mais ça fait partie du domaine du 9-1-1. Il faut s’en occuper parce que sinon on va vivre avec des choix qui ne sont pas...

6154 LE PRÉSIDENT: Mais il y en a qui pourraient dire... et je pense que ça ne serait pas farfelu de dire que c’est maintenant le ministère de l’Innovation... ils ont changé de nom... qui sont responsables de la certification des appareils.

6155 M. VEILLEUX: Mais de la même façon que vous avez fait quand vous avez permis aux compagnies sans fil d’acheminer des appels 9-1-1, vous avez dit, « Il va falloir mettre vos clients au courant des limitations du service 9-1-1. » Donc vous avez imposé un espèce... au moins une règle.


6157 M. VEILLEUX: De la même façon, on pourrait dire, ben, peut-être qu’on pourrait y aller cette fois-ci par renforcement positif puis dire cette application-là est autorisée par le CRTC. Pour nous autres ça serait suffisant et puis je pense que ça ferait le travail.

6158 LE PRÉSIDENT: O.k. Mon dernier sujet avant que je me tourne vers mes collègues et le contentieux porte sur la gestion, le storage, le stockage des nouvelles données.

6159 J’admets qu’il y en aura peut-être plus. On verra qu’est-ce qui va être utile. Je comprends bien que ce sera une décision à plusieurs niveaux.

6160 Mais est-ce que vous êtes d’avis que la responsabilité de qui doit garder ces informations, les préserver, les stocker, et les obligations de protection de la vie privée, que le cadre actuel devrait s’appliquer dans le nouvel environnement, qu’il n’a pas lieu de changer les règles, quoique son application et qui aura les responsabilités aura sans doute une incidence par le volume mais que, essentiellement, le cadre est applicable. Les mêmes règles devraient s’appliquer.

6161 M. FOUCAULT: À notre avis, le cadre actuel est applicable. Par contre, les données vont être stockée sous des formes différentes parce que ce n’est pas le même format de données et le 9-1-1, d’après nous, n’est pas obligé d’avoir accès à toutes les informations. Les informations peuvent être disponibles.

6162 Je prends par exemple un dossier médical ne sert pas à un officier de la police, par contre peut être très utile à un ambulancier et le 9-1-1 n’aurait pas nécessairement à récupérer le dossier médical d’un individu. Ça pourrait être le CASP secondaire qui le fait. À ce moment-là, toute l’information qui a été transmise durant une communication... je ne dirais pas un appel 9-1-1, je dirais une communication 9-1-1...


6164 M. FOUCAULT: ...devrait être stockée par le centre qui a reçu cette communication-là et qui l’a traitée.

6165 LE PRÉSIDENT: D’accord. Merci.

6166 Alors nous n’avons plus de questions pour vous. Merci beaucoup pour votre participation. Évidemment il va y avoir d’autres phases.

6167 Je crois qu’on va prendre une petite pause de cinq minutes et on va entendre la présentation de la Province de l’Ontario, qui est la prochaine intervenante, et après on prendra notre pause du déjeuner.

6168 Alors merci beaucoup, Messieurs, et merci d’avoir participé à l’instance.

6169 Donc ajournement pour cinq minutes jusqu’à midi. Merci.

--- Upon recessing at 11:53 a.m.

--- Upon resuming at 11:59 a.m.

6170 LE PRÉSIDENT: À l’ordre, s’il vous plait. Order please.

6171 Madame la secrétaire.

6172 THE SECRETARY: Thank you.

6173 We’ll now hear the presentation from the Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services for the Province of Ontario.

6174 Please introduce yourself and your colleague, and you have 20 minutes for your presentation.


6175 MR. BECKETT: Good morning, Mr. Chair, Members of the CRTC. Thank you very much. Good afternoon. We’re certainly pleased to have this opportunity to speak to the CRTC today from the Province of Ontario perspective.

6176 By way of introduction, my name is Stephen Beckett and beside me to my right is Anthea DeSantos, and we are both with the Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services in Ontario.

6177 Further, I’ll just describe a little bit about our perspective. I’m here in my role as Assistant Deputy Minister of the Public Safety Division and the Public Safety Training Division.

6178 As Assistant Deputy Minister, among other things, I am responsible for: policy, regulatory and standards oversight of police services, including regular compliance inspections; policing standards development, including adequacy standards for the delivery of communications and dispatch services; program delivery and grants administration, including funding for First Nations Police Services; and public safety training, including the development and accreditation of course training standards for police communications, call takers, dispatchers and communication supervisors.

6179 Previous to my role as Assistant Deputy Minister I was the Deputy Chief of Systems and Innovation for the Waterloo Regional Police Service. I had responsibilities for communications and dispatch and IT, and in that role I co-chaired the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police Information and Communications Technology Committee.

6180 Today it is my intention to provide you with an overview of the challenges facing Ontario in the provision of a regulatory framework for provincial next generation 9-1-1 services and plans to address those challenges moving forward.

6181 9-1-1 as the common emergency call number was first activated in London, Ontario in 1974 and of course the system spread organically across Ontario and in Canada, for that matter. Ontario municipalities took responsibility for operating Public Safety Answering Points, or PSAPS, which were managed by the local police force or the Ontario Provincial Police.

6182 The Police Services Act, by virtue of the Adequacy and Effectiveness of Police Services Regulation (O.Reg.3/99), requires Ontario police forces to have the services of a communications centre for the purpose of receiving calls from the public and dispatching police. These services must be provided by a police force or other municipal emergency service provider or cooperatively by both. In all methods, a member of a police force must supervise police communications and dispatch services.

6183 In the late 1990s, when the Adequacy Regulation and supporting ministry guidelines were developed, the operation of PSAPs was not identified as a function distinct from police communications centre services. Police communicators answered the incoming calls and either continued with a pause for police or transferred fire and ambulance calls to their respective dispatchers.

6184 The Regulation requires ministry-accredited training for communicators and dispatchers or the equivalent ministry-approved qualifications or skills. An understanding of 911 and E911 systems is included for call takers. Chiefs of police are responsible to boards for communications centre operations and service provision.

6185 Ministry guidelines further support communications centre requirements and address policy and procedure standards and systems capabilities including such things as the recording of incoming telephone calls and back-up generators and communications centre security.

6186 Emergency call-takers at primary PSAPs engage in the first interaction between persons requiring emergency assistance or reporting crimes. The critical information received is routinely required for criminal and civil proceedings and coroners’ inquests.

6187 Currently, with the exceptions of services provided by the O.P.P., 9-1-1 services in Ontario are locally administered and funded, and the province has no direct legislative, regulatory funding or oversight role for the delivery of 9-1-1 services that are not provided by a police force. And while the majority of primary 9-1-1 PSAPS are operated by police services in Ontario, there is no requirement that 9-1-1 PSAP services be provided or supervised by the police. And I’m differentiating between PSAPs and primary 9-1-1 delivery.

6188 While Ontario’s current model -- sorry -- in Ontario, a number of agencies and levels of government are involved in the delivery of 9-1-1 services. For example, of course the CRTC regulates phone carriers and customer access to 9-1-1. Municipalities directly oversee fire communications. Municipal police services boards oversee police communication centres with municipal funding. The OPP Commissioner oversees OPP communication centres. The Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care oversees 22 Central Ambulance Communications Centres, which are administered, half, 11 of them, by the Ministry of Health and Long-term Care and the other half by different models and municipalities; and fire and police and ambulance respond to emergencies, but there’s no unifying framework to ensure service cross-disciplinary standards and consistency.

6189 However, in some cases there are multi-disciplinary committees designed locally to facilitate a consistent and cooperative approach to emergency response.

6190 Most Ontarians residing within municipalities and all areas in southern Ontario have access to 9-1-1. Yet, service gaps exist regarding access to Ontario’s 9-1-1 systems mostly within remote First Nations communities, unincorporated communities, and some areas of northern municipalities.

6191 Of the 134 First Nation communities 28.4 percent or 38 -- approximately 25,000 people -- do not have access to 9-1-1 services in Ontario.

6192 Where access to a PSAP 9-1-1 service is unavailable, First Nation communities utilize a radio system that forwards calls from the community members directly to First Nations officers in the field when they are not at the detachment.

6193 It should also be noted that in general, First Nations with capable infrastructure for connectivity may decide to use primary PSAP 9-1-1 services that are usually put in place as part of an agreement with a local municipality or other provider, either private or fire and rescue.

6194 The responsibility falls to the First Nation to make these arrangements, and to pay for the services through their operational budget, although those are funded provincially.

6195 In Ontario, communications centres operating as primary PSAPs answer incoming 9-1-1 calls and either dispatch response services directly or route the call to the appropriate secondary PSAP -- local police, fire, or ambulance.

6196 There are a total of 31 primary PSAP communication centres operating, which are predominantly managed by police services; 90.3 percent, or 28, are municipal police-operated primary PSAPs providing service to 119 single and lower-tier municipalities. The OPP operate one primary PSAP communication centre in North Bay, which feeds four other OPP dispatch centres in some other municipalities.

6197 Northern911 operates one primary PSAP communication centre and it is private in nature. And one municipal fire and rescue operates one primary PSAP.

6198 With respect to communities, approximately 415 single and lower-tier municipalities are receiving primary PSAP services. Approximately, 77.8 percent, or 323, receive service from 29 police-operated primary PSAPs. Approximately 21.5 percent, or 89, receive services from Northern911, the private entity I referred to earlier. And three municipalities receive service from the municipal fire-and-rescue-operated primary PSAP.

6199 I just want to speak briefly to the private operation of 9-1-1 systems in Ontario.

6200 Northern911 is a private enterprise located in Sudbury offering 9-1-1 call routing and dispatch services to police, fire, and ambulance agencies across North America. Currently, Northern911 is the only private sector provider of primary PSAPs in Ontario.

6201 Eleven (11) Ontario municipalities with municipal police forces have contracted with Northern911 for the provision of primary PSAP services. All are small to mid-size with Brantford Police Service being the largest.

6202 Seventy-nine (79) Ontario lower- and single-tier municipalities policed by the OPP receive primary PSAP services from Northern911. The police communications centres servicing these municipalities are secondary PSAPs as they receive calls routed from Northern911 as the primary.

6203 Northern911 also contracts services to Voice over IP telephone providers to receive 9-1-1 calls, determine the emergency location through interview, and forward the call to the appropriate secondary PSAPs. These calls may originate anywhere in Ontario where high-speed internet is available.

6204 Our Ministry does not have oversight for the services provided by Northern911, nor are there policy, procedure, or service standards set by the province at this time

6205 As per the CRTC requirement for telecommunications providers to transition from analog to digital as a precursor to introducing mandatory TEXT with 9-1-1 services for the deaf, hard of hearing, or speech-impaired community TEXT with 9-1-1, T9-1-1, it is currently available throughout Ontario.

6206 In addition, all OPP PSAPs are now equipped to receive texts from registered deaf, hard of hearing, or speech-impaired individuals, and most other primary PSAPs in Ontario have already converted from analog to digital technology.

6207 TEXT with 9-1-1 is not available to the broader public in Ontario at this time. The province continues to be focused on ensuring 9-1-1 services are meeting the necessary expectations of direct and equal access to 9-1-1 services for people who are deaf, hard of hearing or speech impaired. And as we heard earlier, there’s certainly a need to address those issues for people with disabilities.

6208 As part of the CRTC consultations on the establishment of a regulatory framework for NG9-1-1, interventions were submitted by both the Ontario Provincial Police and the Toronto Police Service, the latter of which included input from a number of municipal police services in Ontario. These interventions have highlighted both challenges and opportunities to the province with respect to the delivery of NG9-1-1.

6209 The emergence of next-generation 9-1-1, which will enable the use of data communications to obtain emergency assistance, including document, picture, and video transmission, would cause considerable pressures on PSAP operators in the form of technology upgrades, data storage, training and personnel, investigation of information, and increased call/data volume.

6210 Presently, there are limitations with Ontario’s existing network infrastructure regarding compatibility and interoperability with NG9-1-1 and designated PSAPs’ computer-aided dispatch systems, as well as other 9-1-1 systems which should ultimately transfer information from the call, no matter the format.

6211 Thus far, interim solutions and technological upgrades to PSAPs -- CADs -- have not supported the widespread provincial adoption of NG9-1-1 features such as multimedia contacts and services, the ability to deliver accurate caller location in real-time, and interoperability at the provincial level.

6212 As you are well aware, federal, provincial, and municipal partners have differing mandates and responsibilities, all of which require coordination to ensure reliable and consistent services, data collection, and interoperability.

6213 The extent of progress realized by the province on upgrades towards achieving standards under NG9-1-1 have not been extensive or sufficient to date as the aforementioned challenges, combined with aging infrastructure, new technologies, and requirements for technological conversion have outpaced our resources and local capacity.

6214 So as far as next steps moving forward, we’ve heard from stakeholders that there is a need to be forward-thinking in determining Ontario’s next steps in the delivery of next-generation 9-1-1.

6215 Currently, provincial interest is being examined and we are looking to explore options that will address the challenges and aid the modernization of 9-1-1 systems.

6216 Given the complexity of the 9-1-1 system, the number of agencies involved, and the province’s limited role to date, the province needs to consult with key stakeholders and gather and confirm information and discuss options for the future of 9-1-1 services.

6217 Ontario has initiated initial research to inform and validate 9-1-1 risks, opportunities, and potential modernization costs and considerations, including investigating a sustainable funding model for capital infrastructure renewal, and to ensure cost effective and sustainable maintenance of the system; analyzing potential standards and training for operators, dispatchers, and service levels to ensure reliable and consistent service delivery across the province; reviewing proposed systems of oversight that would monitor compliance with standards; assessing the readiness for coordination, compliance, and interoperability of systems and information-sharing across emergency service providers -- for example, police, fire, and ambulatory services; exploring regionalization and/or consolidation, where possible and appropriate, to enable more efficient, effective, and sustainable service delivery; evaluating the need to establish a provincial steering committee to facilitate the creation of a provincial emergency dispatch governance model as per stakeholder recommendations; and conducting an inter-jurisdictional scan of proposed or established legislative and regulatory frameworks for 9-1-1 service across Canada.

6218 In addition, we’re exploring the option of aligning the modernization of the 9-1-1 systems with the development of the Strategy for a Safer Ontario, which aims to meet the challenges we face in today’s world of limited budgets, changing demographics, rapid technological innovation, and ever-changing demands for police services

6219 Our goal is to build proactive, sustainable, and effective community safety in Ontario, whether receiving policing from the Ontario Provincial Police, municipal services, or a First Nations police service.

6220 The Strategy has identified a number of initiatives, relating to policing, under four pillars where change is likely required to support the overall goals. Under the pillar related to the ministry’s Community Safety Service Delivery Framework, Ontario would have the ability to define what entities can deliver or must deliver police emergency communications to a legislated/prescribed standard.

6221 The ministry developed a methodology to identify community safety services that must be delivered by a police service or jurisdiction with its own resources and those entities may enter into agreements for services with, such as a contiguous police service, private entity, or a crown corporation.

6222 This determination recognizes the complexity of communications dispatch and supports the need to modernize and standardize police emergency communication throughout Ontario.

6223 Conceivably, this approach may assist with the advancement of next-generation 9-1-1 technology and standards.

6224 In conclusion, the province is committed to ensuring that Ontario has a modern emergency communications system that enables quick and effective action in emergency situations, and plans to engage key stakeholders as we move forward to identify next steps for NG9-1-1 services that best address current considerations

6225 Ontario’s rollout of NG9-1-1 will be informed by the CRTC’s public consultations and options being considered for a national, regulatory framework.

6226 Thank you.

6227 THE CHAIRMAN: I'd announced earlier that we'd do the questioning after the lunch break. Would you be willing to do it now?

6228 MR. BECKETT: Absolutely.

6229 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.

6230 MR. BECKETT: Yeah.

6231 THE CHAIRMAN: So we'll do that now. Thank you.

6232 MR. BECKETT: Okay, great.

6233 THE CHAIRMAN: So I'll put you in the hands of Vice-Chair Menzies.

6234 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Thank you, and thank you for the description of the various action points you listed there in terms of the options being explored. I guess the bigger question above all that -- and I appreciate that it might be difficult to answer in some ways -- is how much energy is there behind those initiatives? I mean, are they fresh, are they aging? I mean, in a lot of cases, emergency services -- and you're not alone in this in terms of government departments -- they’re sort of always in the in basket, but there's always something that gets put on top of them so they never quite get to the top of the in-basket and get dealt with.

6235 So maybe you can give us a kind of a sense, as best you can, as frankly as you can, about whether you have the champions you need to move these things forward and whether there's fresh energy behind it or otherwise?

6236 MR. BECKETT: Well, you know, I think it's a very good question, and one that I can answer. Although you say it's difficult, I can probably answer it best by talking a little bit about Strategy for a Safer Ontario, which has provided, I think, a new momentum for addressing complex situations which require multiple -- multi -- multiple public safety responses, including health responses, fire responses, policing responses.

6237 So within our Strategy for a Safer Ontario, we're looking at community safety and wellbeing as a holistic piece. What providers do you need to bring together to make a community not only more safe, but actually make sure that it's well?

6238 So and oftentimes -- and I'll speak to situations like people with mental health issues, you know, traditional approaches have been police responses -- perhaps an apprehension, perhaps taking them to a mental health hospital where they're retained under a Form 1.

6239 But in -- certainly in -- as we look forward for a better strategy, we're starting to look at consolidating services and working with health care providers with the police to respond to those issues. In many cases, the police are not the best response model. And you start to look at better ways to sort of amalgamate multi-ministry responsibilities and multi-municipal responsibilities.

6240 I think that's created pathways for us to look at complex issues like next-generation 9-1-1, where it does require bringing together different perspectives and certainly different ministries, different approaches. And certainly, we're working much more closely with our provincial partners and our municipal partners.

6241 So that all to lead into an increased momentum, which is causing us to look at things like 9-1-1 service delivery and how better to deliver that, how better to transfer information, and how better to work collectively.

6242 I would say that our energy is increasing by the week, by the month, and as we move this project forward, we're realizing where a lot of the gaps are because of some of the other conversations we're having. They may seem quite apparent when I provide the summary, that those gaps are there, but they've become more apparent as we move forward with that collective strategy.

6243 So the best way to answer that question is, there is energy in the province. The timelines will be challenging, because there's a lot of work to do, and of course, as you know, in your context, our municipalities oftentimes are responsible for providing those services and they want a certain level of autonomy and want a fairly large say in how they get it delivered.

6244 So for us to coordinate provincially, we need lots of consultation. We need to listen to all of our stakeholders. We need to listen to the citizens of Ontario and understand the services that they want provided for them. And that provides us with the platform to move forward. But I think the short answer is, there is an increasing momentum in energy to move this forward.

6245 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay, thanks. You mentioned consolidation and earlier regionalization both, and I took it a little bit from what you just said -- maybe clarify for me -- that when you're talking about consolidation or regionalization in terms of that, that that's broader than just PSAPs.

6246 MR. BECKETT: Yes.

6247 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: And that would be a variety of, you know, health services or -- that were non -- not necessarily emergency services. Is -- within that discussion, is it contemplated that there might be a consolidation when we're at 31 PSAPs right now, I think?

6248 MR. BECKETT: Yes.

6249 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: And how many ---

6250 MR. BECKETT: Well, actually, it's a total of 121 PSAPs if we count primaries and secondaries.

6251 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Right. That's what I was going to ask, how many ---

6252 MR. BECKETT: Yes ---

6253 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: --- secondaries.

6254 MR. BECKETT: --- 121. We have 90 secondary PSAPs and 31 primaries.

6255 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Right, and that's a lot.

6256 MR. BECKETT: That's a lot. Agreed, yes.

6257 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: And they would all be governed by probably municipalities or First Nations?

6258 MR. BECKETT: Yes, they are, and in many cases, as I described, I mean, the First Nations' issues are very difficult for connectivity and even 9-1-1 service.


6260 MR. BECKETT: But we're moving toward that. We have a public safety radio network project that's beginning, fairly -- a large project across the province that probably will increase accessibility for First Nations in many ways.

6261 Having said that, we do recognize that there are opportunities for consolidation and you know, we want to make sure we -- as we move forward, we're looking at new legislation for public safety, a new Police Services Act, if you will, and look at it more broadly. We want to certainly enable the ability for consolidation.

6262 So I think what you heard in my summary is that where police deliver a primary PSAP, which they do in many cases just because they're a fairly well-placed 24/7 service for most municipalities and they're fairly comfortable with that. We want to make sure that we look at other opportunities that both -- two sides of the coin: one, increase the effectiveness of the service delivery model -- and that can be, you know, as we look out west to E-Comm and those other examples, they obviously work fairly well in those contexts and we see those as perhaps models to move toward, but also to reduce costs, in many ways, for the taxpayer.
And policing and health care services and fire are getting increasingly costly, and we're hearing from our municipal stakeholders that they want to try to control those costs a bit more. So we're trying to look at it from two sides: better delivery and perhaps a more cost-effective model.

6263 We've had some examples. In fact, in Waterloo region, where I came from -- and they're still working at trying to consolidate a communications centre, which fell out of a call that went badly for a helicopter crash. It was reviewed and a lot of the recommendations were to consolidate services.

6264 But as you can imagine, there are a number of complexities with that. Some of those are labour-oriented. We've got, you know, some cases. We've got police associations, fire associations, or unions -- very strong unions in the fire and others, and of course, when you start to combine and look at jobs, there's some challenges there. But having said that, they're continuing to work through those pieces.

6265 As a province, what we want to do though is rather than, I think, force a mandate but enable those municipalities to be able to combine services and create more of that regional context, it starts to make more sense as we move forward.

6266 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Is there energy from the municipalities on that end, because obviously there is, because there's obviously efficiencies they can gain. There's ---

6267 MR. BECKETT: There is.

6268 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: But there's opportunities there?

6269 MR. BECKETT: Yeah, and by example -- and of course, you know, we are talking multi-disciplinary service provision, but I'll just speak to police services for a second. We're seeing the KPMG report that Toronto Police Service just dealt with, where they're trying to look at better ways to do things. And all of those, a lot of municipalities are following those models in trying to look at how you amalgamate services, reduce sort of those back-office costs, and provide better service to the community at the same time.

6270 So there is an increasing desire for that, and of course, on the other side of it, we often have municipalities looking for different services, whether it be Northern911 or OPP provision of communications and dispatch. In Owen Sound, we've seen a lot of consolidated communications provision out of the Owen Sound Police, but they're policing -- or they're dispatching fire and police for multiple municipalities because it has become a better value when it comes to contracting and centralizing.

6271 So the short answer is yes, there is willingness amongst many municipalities for that to occur.

6272 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: You mentioned legislation earlier and it sounded like it would be relatively broad-based. But would it -- first of all, is it on the -- what stage is it at? Is it imminent, on the horizon, beyond the horizon, or a concept? Like, as we look forward, when might we reasonably anticipate ---

6273 MR. BECKETT: Well, as far as the Strategy for a Safer Ontario ---

6274 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: --- (inaudible) 9-1-1.

6275 MR. BECKETT: I’m sorry; I didn’t mean to interrupt. As far as the Strategy for a Safer Ontario goes, we’re looking at the introduction of legislation in the spring of 2017 that would address a new Police Services Act, perhaps with a different name, but addressing public safety. That’s one element, obviously.

6276 There would be possible regulation that would fall out of that in a little bit longer term.

6277 And I think as far as 9-1-1 specifically goes, that would potentially require a separate piece of legislation outside of that or a regulation because it address more than the police; obviously it’s more broadly from a public safety perspective.

6278 But the two, I think, certainly -- the new Strategy for a Safer Ontario would provide a fairly firm platform to step off of and I think the next piece would be looking at or considering what the provincial role is for 9-1-1 services. And some of the things I described for you are what we need to do before we firm up exactly what that role is and exactly what any potential legislation might look like.

6279 But I would say as far as direct legislation for 9-1-1, it’s in the exploration phase. As far as some pieces that would allow for a greater amalgamation of services provided by the community and sort of the downstream effects, that will happen a little bit earlier.

6280 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay. Does that contemplate the 9-1-1, specifically the creation of standards, the possibility of a provincial levy? Are those part of that picture?

6281 MR. BECKETT: We certainly heard -- and the Ontario Association of Chiefs and Police and others have certainly put forward a motion to look for a levy that might be provided to them.

6282 I think for us at this point in time the province has not committed to any sort of levy but it wants to explore sustainable funding models. And of course, you know, we have -- with respect to the federal government we’ve got models where we’re receiving portions of funding from the feral government, some provincial, and some municipal.

6283 First Nations Policing is one of those examples. We receive 52 percent funding from the federal government -- of course it’s a very unique circumstance -- 48 percent for the province, and likewise.

6284 And so, you know, potentially for the CRTC, if you’re looking for sort of broader consistency across the country and you’re looking to have that closer, maybe there’s some opportunities to provide funding federally. That said, we’d need to look at all options and that requires further discussions. It’s not off the table for a tariff, but certainly all of those funding models have to be explored.

6285 And considerable consultation with all of our stakeholders has to take place as well since right now all of these -- the delivery of all of these services are being funded municipally. The Association of the Municipalities of Ontario and the City of Toronto are big players in this and we certainly want to make sure that we’re considering the implications before we land on that funding model.

6286 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: And because it impacts the information that may be required, or at least useful to first responders and therefore the nature of the network required to transmit it to them, can you update us on the state of digitization of information in -- provincial government information, health records, and roadmaps, that sort of thing is specifically what I’m thinking about.

6287 MR. BECKETT: Oh, certainly I'm really not -- I don’t have any expertise for health records. I can speak a little bit to some of the other public safety pieces. I mean, certainly we’re moving to a much more digital environment and certainly a much more open governed approach to information, where possible.

6288 We have a number of privacy lenses on information and we’ve been working with the Privacy Commissioner in a number of different ways, including the sharing of information in situation tables or hubs that address sort of proactively interventions with people with a number of different issues.

6289 We have had a lot of conversation with our public safety partners about certainly opportunities for secure cloud technology and better ways to retain digital information.

6290 Justice Technology Services in the Province of Ontario provide both data storage for computer-assisted dispatch and records-management system data for 44 public safety entities in the province. The majority of those are police, including the OPP and a number of smaller police agencies. So in essence, a lot of the data from CAD systems and RMS systems does reside digitally with the Province of Ontario.

6291 We do have some opportunities and a lot of those are in terms of interoperability. And I think you heard from CITIG earlier that certainly interoperability amongst service providers is key.

6292 In the policing environments -- in the fire environments we have a number of different records-management systems. And CAD systems as well as Health has their own CAD system. Ideally, we’d like to see those all being interoperable and integrated.

6293 And in a policing environment we basically have two -- with very few exceptions we have two CAD systems and two RMS systems. And so we’re looking right now through OPTIC, which is the Ontario Police Technical Information Cooperative run back in through Justice Technology Services, to open gateways that would allow for all that information to be digitally interoperable and accessible for specific purposes that would respect privacy legislation.

6294 So I think we’re in some very good positions with respect to the transfer of digital information currently.

6295 If I can step off of some comments made earlier, if you don’t mind, in terms of the complexity? And of course I’m sure -- just although you look at the networks, the downstream effects can be considerable. So if we look at the receipt of text broadly from the public, probably less of an issue because text is fairly easy to store, fairly easy to search. From a privacy perspective, if we have privacy requests, it can be vetted fairly easily.

6296 If you expand that -- and of course for a court’s disclosure it’s fairly easy to disclose text.

6297 If you expand that to photos, now you start to think about potentially a collision on the 401 which might get 100 phone calls, 100 photos, perhaps 200. And then those would have to be retained by the PSAP -- they may be evidence in police trial or a coroner’s inquest and of course they all have to be vetted. And then if we have privacy requests, we actually have to pixelate out people that don’t agree to have their information shared.

6298 So you can imagine the complexity of that, not to mention the work involved to investigate the information. And of course video just expands that one step further. That 10-minute video that may come in for a person who may be on a bridge -- whereas the call might be somebody looks like they’re going to jump from a bridge you dispatch right away. In that case that video has to be reviewed and determined what information is there and try to pass it on to the front responder. If you get 10 videos or 20 videos, of course that gets expanded.

6299 So to that extent, I think we’re ready digitally for the transfer of probably less complex pieces. I think the storage and processing for a video gets much more difficult and pictures as well. But from a progression, going from text to more complexity, it would be challenging in terms of our readiness for digital data.

6300 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Thanks. And can you just confirm or clarify for me one thing. You mentioned, when you were talking about Northern911 and the number of jurisdictions ---

6301 MR. BECKETT: Eighty-nine (89) over there.


6303 MR. BECKETT: Eighty-nine (89).

6304 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Eighty-nine (89)?

6305 MR. BECKETT: Yes.

6306 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: So that’s -- yeah.

6307 MR. BECKETT: Communities.

6308 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: So 60 or 70 percent -- 70 percent of the communities you’re ---

6309 MR. BECKETT: We have 444 communities in the province of Ontario.

6310 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Sorry, 444 communities, right. Okay.

6311 Eighty-nine (89) communities. How many PSAPs within that? Do you know?

6312 MR. BECKETT: Well, Northern911 would be the ---

6313 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Because they’re a PSAP ---

6314 MR. BECKETT: Oh, for ---

6315 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: They’re a secondary PSAP too, right?

6316 MR. BECKETT: Yeah. So how many PSAPs in that 89, you’re asking?


6318 MR. BECKETT: I would have to hazard a guess on that one. Most of them would have a volunteer fire service or a fire service that would be dispatched locally.


6320 MR. BECKETT: But I couldn’t give you an accurate number on that one, sorry.

6321 COMMISSIONER MENZIES: Okay. Anyways, all I wanted to clarify on that, really, was you mentioned or I heard you say -- and I’m not sure; I just want to confirm that I heard correctly. You said that there’s no provincial oversight or policies or a set of policies or procedures provincially that overlook with Northern911. Are there -- what does look over them, The Municipal Act, or the municipalities, or is it just done by the nature of the contracts?

6322 MR. BECKETT: Yes, it would be contractual in nature. And of course, there is a gap, probably one that, as legislation was created and, of course, this business evolved, it falls between the cracks in some pieces of legislation; I don’t think it was ever anticipated. And of course, we’re looking at that scenario right now to determine the best way forward.

6323 We do, in consultation with some police services and some providers -- they’re telling us that this service is adequate and works well for their context. We have not inspected that business; we don’t know all of the elements of that business.

6324 A municipality is responsible for the delivery of 9-1-1 services and within that context, there’s nothing that mandates who that can be. So within the contract for a municipality, they would develop the terms, and that would include probably certain service levels; although, I have not seen those contracts so I can’t speak to that.

6325 But that would be -- the only mechanism would be a contractual arrangement within the municipalities right now. We do recognize, as a province, that that’s a gap for us.

6326 COMMISSIONER MENIES: Thank you very much. Those are my questions.

6327 THE CHAIRMAN: I turn to my colleagues. No?

6328 I just have one. The thing about 9-1-1, it’s very rich in jurisdictions.

6329 MR. BECKETT: Yes.

6330 THE CHAIRMAN: Many of them -- for it to work, it requires a lot of shared collaboration. And as I'm -- I don’t know if you were here earlier when I said -- it’s a bit of an oversimplification, but there’s two big baskets; one of them is the telecommunication aspect and then there’s the other basket, which has the public safety, public-security aspect to it.

6331 We’ve been active in this field by making sure that the networks are in place, that working groups exist, that issues are moving forward.

6332 The public-safety aspect is, of course, partially federal, partial provincial and territorial. If you were going to give a grade to how well the FPT aspect is this going on the public-security side, what would it be?

6333 MR. BECKETT: That’s a very good question. I do -- I think on the FPT level it wouldn’t be a high grade. I think, certainly -- you may -- in listening to previous presentations -- and I know you’d asked about SOREM potentially as an oversight. I don’t -- I think that would be a good first step to try to move some continuity across the country.

6334 And I know that’s difficult, from previous experiences because we do have each province having its own responsibilities in moving things forward within its context but I do think that there is -- there needs to be a really strong Coalition of the Willing. I think ESWG helps in that regard.

6335 I think we’ve got CITIG and others that bring some of the providers together but I do think, from an FPT perspective, 9-1-1 services, emergency communication, the modernization of emergency communication, broadly, deserves its own, probably, FPT discussion, whether that happens at the SOREM level or a separate FPT committee.

6336 We have committees that deal with policing and crime prevention, and I know fire has some of theirs and health has theirs, but I think a dedicated approach to emergency communication and 9-1-1 would go a long way to forward the advancement of the technology and the delivery of services.

6337 If I -- and certainly, if I may -- I know you talked and had questions about the ILEC versus some of the other models -- I think I wouldn’t venture to recommend one over the other but what I would respectfully suggest is that in the consideration of which way to go, I think the ability for emergency service providers to be able to have that appropriate connection, that consistency, the standards that are provided by either model have to remain constant, otherwise -- and they constantly face needs for upgrades in CAD system and others.

6338 And of course, you’re heard of comfort about the ILEC model. And I think the fear is that things are going to change and the IT systems will have to adapt to the new providers. As long as there’s a -- you know, I would respectfully say, as long as there’s a consistent standard for whoever that provider is, I think it can work.

6339 There’s obviously economies presented where you have a competitive model and, you know, I think that creates advantages for citizens and taxpayers; there’s certainly a good argument there. But I think that a single point of contact, if that’s achieved through RFP or others, makes sense.

6340 And so I think whichever the way the CRTC decides to go on that, I would please recommend that you take those pieces into consideration. I think it’s not a simple decision and it really depends, a certain way, on how it hits the ground and what sort of conditions are around the delivery of those services.

6341 THE CHAIRMAN: What are the barriers to better FPT coordination on this issue?

6342 MR. BECKETT: Well, I do know -- I can’t speak personally. I do know, in my past role as the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police ICT Chair, we were recommending that SOREM take on NG9-1-1. I don’t know the reasons. I know that that was not accepted at that point in time, that a SOREM group be created for NG9-1-1.

6343 I think the barriers may be political; they may be otherwise. It’s hard to say. But I think, certainly, for provinces, there’s an opportunity for us to advocate for that sort of leadership approach at the FPT level.

6344 And I think, in many way, as this starts to become more real -- and that’s always a hard part with something like next-generation 9-1-1. As recently as a couple of years ago, I had a chief of police call me and say, “What is this next-gen 9-1-1 and how does this affect me?”. He had no idea.

6345 So I think people start to understand it better, understand what it means; our politicians start to understand it better and understand the implications; then I think the attention gets paid.

6346 I can tell you that, as a former police officer, I spoke to a group of police leaders at the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police Conference and, certainly, my starting comments were, “What would you do if your communications budget increased by 30 percent?” and I got attention.

6347 I think that’s, you know, the things that have to be considered about how we roll this out, and I think taking it, certainly seriously, understanding that this is something that the public wants -- and needs, in many ways -- I think is important.

6348 And I think those barriers are really -- if I were to be very high-level, maybe a lack of momentum. And I think that momentum can be increased through education and understanding of what’s possible, and what’s coming, and what needs to be done.

6349 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you believe that 9-1-1 services are taking a little bit too much for granted and, because there is no crisis, it gets not political attention?

6350 MR. BECKETT: Yeah. I mean I might not put it that way. But if I could ---

6351 THE CHAIRMAN: Am I too blunt?

6352 MR. BECKETT: Well, no, that’s -- it’s easier to communicate that way. But I would say I think in many ways service delivery works quite well.

6353 And of course, just to get down to the normal operations, the discussion and the great presentation we had by people who were either hearing-impaired, deaf, deaf-blind -- I mean those challenges are huge and I think -- I don’t think you’d get any argument that provision of alternative services through text or others for people with disabilities makes perfect sense; it has to be done.

6354 I think where the argument starts to fall off for emergency providers are that, you know, a phone call can deliver most of the information and you can get somebody there right away. The data’s entered into a CAD system right away and lands on a mobile work station -- for most police services, and for most ambulance attendants, and for most fire -- readily.

6355 So I think, while the delivery of pictures, photos, video would add something in some cases, it also gets very complex. And I think the lack of excitement over that, I think, is a concern over the complexity, whereas you have something that’s generally working.

6356 You do have, of course, if I might ---

6357 THE CHAIRMAN: By the same token, newspapers were doing a fine job delivering news; hotels were doing a fine job delivering hotel rooms ---

6358 MR. BECKETT: Yeah.

6359 THE CHAIRMAN: --- and taxi companies were doing a fine job delivering taxi services until broadband came along.

6360 MR. BECKETT: I certainly don’t dispute your perspective. I agree with it. I think what I’m describing -- you asked why there’s some reluctance. I don’t necessarily share that view but what I would suggest is that’s shared by some of the people that are in the field who are concerned about the practical rollouts. I agree with -- that it’s a modernization of the delivery of information.

6361 And I think -- you know, you asked earlier about voice versus text. I think, you know, you have to consider, as we do as a province, our -- certainly, our goal is to make sure that every Ontarian receives good quality services in whatever method is -- provides that.

6362 So for some people that may have arthritis, they can't type, text may be problematic, so they need to have voice capability. Others may not even have voice capability so they need text ability, and you know, there may be very good reasons for video and others that that makes that very valuable. So I don’t argue through that, but I think that's why you get some resistance and maybe some reluctance to move forward more quickly.

6363 And of course, as you -- you know, certainly as a federal entity as for us as a provincial entity, we have to certainly consider all the positions of our stakeholders, and that means moving forward in a way that allows people to adapt appropriately. It's probably -- I would say it's more an evolutionary process than a revolutionary process in this case.

6364 I think what was described earlier, perhaps in test sites with text, would go a long way to start to reduce those implications. We find you get some early adopters who can do it well and others follow fairly closely. So I think for us to be successful, that's probably the best approach.

6365 And making sure that those agencies or sites that we'd choose for tests are ready and that it's going to be successful in those environments; I think that's key in moving forward.

6366 THE CHAIRMAN: I appreciate your insight, and certainly in the next phases of the written comments I wouldn't mind having your perspective on how we can build the momentum or remove barriers, as the case may be, to make sure that there's better and more efficient coordination on the public safety side in FPT contents.

6367 MR. BECKETT: Very good.

6368 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Thank you very much for your intervention.

6369 MR. BECKETT: Thank you.

6370 THE CHAIRMAN: We will now take our break and come back at -- in an hour at 1:45. Thank you.

--- Upon recessing at 12:46 p.m.

--- Upon resuming at 1:46 p.m.

6371 THE CHAIRMAN: Order please. À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.

6372 Madame la secrétaire.

6373 THE SECRETARY: Thank you. We'll now hear the presentation from the Senior Officials Responsible for Emergency Management (SOREM). Please introduce yourselves, and you have 20 minutes for your presentation.


6374 MS. DURAND: Merci beaucoup. Bonjour. Je me présente. Mon nom est Stéphanie Durand. Je suis la directrice générale à Sécurité publique Canada responsable pour la gestion des mesures d’urgence et les politiques et les relations avec les intervenants.

6375 So I'll just introduce myself. My name is Stéphanie Durand. I'm Director-General of Emergency Management Policy and Outreach at Public Safety Canada, and it's a pleasure to be here this afternoon with you.

6376 I'm also here with Duane McKay, Commissioner of Emergency Management and Fire Services of the Government of Saskatchewan, and both of us are the co-chairs of the interoperability working group, which is the FPT Group, which deals with interoperability and emergency communications issues.

6377 Before I begin our intervention, I'd like just to speak a bit about the context and the evolving nature of emergency management and specifically with respect to 9-1-1 services.

6378 So we all recognize that technology has evolved and the public's expectations as well, with respect to receiving emergency alerts, is also changing. Modernizing 9-1-1 requires a multi-disciplinary approach with many different stakeholders involved, as well as inter-jurisdictional conversation.

6379 There is not one owner of this issue. It does touch national interest and involves federal, provincial, territorial, and municipal engagement, as well as a variety of different stakeholders involved in the tri-services community, police, fire, and paramedics. It involves also the private sector, telecommunication service providers, PSAPs, and the list goes on.

6380 What we do recognize is that this conversation that you are having with the public hearings will inform the thinking with respect to what are possible options to moving forward? But we do recognize as well that this is complex. It is not one simple solution, but having this dialogue engaging with the different actors involved in 9-1-1, which is also very similar to the complex domain which is emergency management.

6381 So maybe I'll now just speak a bit about the different working groups that we do have. So the interoperability working group is comprised of provincial, territorial, and federal officials. We've also included the Federation of Canadian Municipalities and the tri-services are now also part of the group, which again, as I mentioned, involves police, fire, and paramedics organization.

6382 And what we do at the FPTIWG, which Duane and I are the co-chairs, is that we facilitate discussions and look at all aspects of emergency communications, which is included in our communications interoperability strategy for Canada. What the strategy does is set goals and identifies key national priorities to enhance governance, planning, technology, training, and exercises. It also promotes interoperability voice and data communications.

6383 Now, I will say that our challenges are evolving with advances in technology. And again, it's important to recognize that this a very diverse domain, and also requires shared responsibilities.

6384 Senior Officials Responsible for Emergency Management (SOREM), is the body responsible for overseeing the various FPT working groups, which includes also the FPT Interoperability Working Group. And over the last couple of years, I will say, there's been tremendous progress in the collaboration and the discussion of national issues of interest.

6385 And what SOREM does is work to harmonize and improve emergency management practices across the country, not only to respond to large-scale emergencies such as natural and man-made disasters, but also looks to discuss broad national issues that really helps the emergency management posture for Canada.

6386 I also want to note that SOREM is not a regulatory body, but is more of a policy coordination body where we discuss aspects of emergency management within the jurisdictions.

6387 Other key issues that we discuss include the public safety broadband network and interoperability between Canada and the U.S.

6388 So given the group's focus on future communication systems where next-generation 9-1-1 was recently flagged at our last FPT minister's meeting back in May in Toronto, this issue, next-generation 9-1-1, will be a topic where that it will be discussed at our FPTIWG working group, which we both co-chair.

6389 This is an important development, where there's a recognition of the continuum of emergency management communications, not only to look at it in isolation, but to look at all the different aspects. And this public hearing is very timely with the addition of this topic within our domain.

6390 So what I'd like to do now is I'll turn it over to Duane to provide a more -- I would say he'll dig down into some of the different aspects of this work and then we can conclude with some general remarks.

6391 Duane?

6392 MR. McKAY: Thank you, Stéphanie, and thank you to the Commission to allow us to make a presentation here.

6393 As Stéphanie had pointed out, my name is Duane McKay, Commissioner of Emergency Management Fire Safety with the Province of Saskatchewan, and specifically responsible for the Sask911 system, which operates within that province. And I would say, generally, it is a unique system there, so my comments today will be a little bit about SOREM and of course, because of the type of person I am, a little bit of personal opinion as well.

6394 So after a week of hearings, I assume now that you're -- you've heard the various perspectives and opinions about 9-1-1 and its current system and some of the challenges it faces. Obviously, as Stéphanie has said, this is very diverse and it's very complex in terms of how we would deliver services in the present environment.

6395 Obviously, we see various levels of engagement and sustainability with the first -- with the current model. Some jurisdictions, obviously 9-1-1 services are operated at a municipal level and supported only by the local business model. In other areas, it might be regional or county based and have a wider tax base and funding sources there to keep it current and sustained at an appropriate level. In some cases, the province is involved, as is certainly the case in Saskatchewan and others which are now putting in regulatory frameworks, and in some cases, they're actually collecting money through fees and funding and distributing that back to sustain the 9-1-1 system.

6396 I also want to identify the various levels of services that are provided across the country, as I'm sure you're aware.

6397 There are places in this country that doesn’t have access to 9-1-1, other places that have access only to basic 9-1-1.

6398 Enhanced 9-1-1 is obviously a little bit more prevalent and there are a few jurisdictions now that are ready to, or are currently, operating on the first iteration of NG9-1-1.

6399 So the lack of national consistency has impacted many jurisdictions and their ability to actually move forward in any level of consistency in terms of implementing new technologies.

6400 And I think ultimately this is beginning to impact on the full potential of a fully integrated 9-1-1 system, integrated with other technologies and within the communications continuum. And I think Canada has been missing out on some good opportunities here.

6401 In many cases we view 9-1-1 exclusively as an answer transfers service which allows the public to dial a three-digit number and get access to public safety services during an emergency.

6402 However, it must be viewed in a broader sense. It is not just call taking and transfer. But it has implications all the way down the system all the way to the responding agency that may be attending to those particular incidents.

6403 As Stéphanie has mentioned, this was recently discussed at the provincial/territorial Deputy Minister’s meeting and then ultimately moved to the FPT table with the conclusion that 9-1-1 is a critical service and needs to be brought into the fold and is now included on SOREM’s Interoperability Working Group agenda.

6404 As we continue to develop the interoperability concepts related to land-based radio systems, the public safety broadband network, it has become obvious that 9-1-1 is an information transfer, as well, in terms of data. And downstream dispatching agencies, ultimately first responders, or responding agencies are intimately connected and require a similar consideration as we give to these other initiatives.

6405 With these considerations in mind and built a little bit on my experience in Saskatchewan, I will make these following observations and suggestions.

6406 I want to begin my comments by emphasizing again that the 9-1-1 system is the entry point to almost all public safety emergencies for Canadians. As such, we need to ensure that we build a strong foundation in which -- that is integrated into the public safety continuum, which includes radio, includes data transfers, and other initiatives that we’re working on.

6407 The parties that we are suggesting for your consideration today have been identified by the IWG, Interoperability Working Group, and again built on, sort of, the experience that we have in Saskatchewan.

6408 First, we need a substantial and a successful governance model. In our province we have that in place. We have legislative frameworks. We have interoperability advisory groups that really run the entire system.

6409 We need to focus in on the continuum of the response services. So anything that we take in at 9-1-1 must be able to be transferred ultimately to the responding agency, whoever that might be. That may include, as it does in Saskatchewan, the Provincial Public Safety Telecommunications Network in the legislation that governs 9-1-1.

6410 We need to focus on standards and standardization of services and some way to measure and to maintain those services.

6411 So within that context I have three priorities. Standardization of service recognizes that we must have national standards; consistency in the services delivered, including the availability of 9-1-1 services in every jurisdiction. Standardization of service level speaks to our belief, and likely most Canadian citizens, that a person in trouble should be able to call 9-1-1 and reasonably expect a comparable level of service. To achieve this it requires us to acknowledge that some Canadian jurisdictions don’t have 9-1-1 or just have access to basic 9-1-1.

6412 Before we focus solely on the introduction of new technologies, as indicated with the NG9-1-1 initiative, we need to consider how we can standardize the basic services of 9-1-1 across this country. In addition, we need to pay particular attention to already-mandated services that are not consistently in place like cellular location accuracy. It is little benefit to a primary PSAP to have the latest NG9-1-1 technology if we still can’t locate a caller and then transfer that information to downstream secondary PSAPs with less or no capability.

6413 This is the same for communications structures and voice and data that connect these systems together, which moves ultimately this information to the public safety responder.

6414 In addition, as pictures and video are tactical or investigative information belonging to secondary dispatch agencies, we must revisit the role of 9-1-1 in collecting and managing this data within the context of the 9-1-1 -- or the emergency communications continuum.

6415 To sum up, the focus should not be purely on 9-1-1 technology. Instead, both primary and secondary response agencies need to be a part of the integrated emergency communication system.

6416 With respect to standardization of processes and protocols for PSAPs, we recognize that this will be a challenge due to the types of services that are provided across the country, including governance models, which would include in some cases only municipal and others -- municipal, provincial agencies. Many are in different stages of development.

6417 Consistent and dependable funding is not in place but need to be there so that we can effectively develop a technology roadmap for the system.

6418 Standards adopted across Canada should be based on national criteria. They should be peer-developed, managed, and supported. This may include training and peer certifications and audits.

6419 It is recognized that standardization could lead to some consolidation or regionalization of the 9-1-1 system in order to be more cost-effective. It may not be feasible to have all PSAPs that are unable to offer appropriate level of services.

6420 This offers an important and practical opportunity to deliver more effective services. National standards, consistent delivery of service, and technology may offer opportunities for complete PSAP-to-PSAP redundancy and backup across this country.

6421 Financial stability across the system is becoming a national priority. Currently there is no consistency in how funds are collected and allocated by municipalities and government, provincial governments, and telecommunications companies. Operational fees collected by the province are not necessarily governed by the CRTC.

6422 Our suggestion is that the CRTC consider mandating a portion of the fees collected by telecommunications companies be targeted specifically to these other initiatives, like a national body.

6423 Lastly, and likely the most important overarching priority, is the establishment of a national, user-based governing body. This body would provide a common forum to discuss service delivery as well as develop guidelines and tools to measure the services that might allow us to certify public safety answering points.

6424 It would provide a national point of contact for technology service providers, telecommunications companies, and industry to develop and interface with emergency service telecommunications systems.

6425 This would need to include multiple levels of service and support all levels of service -- basic, enhance, and NG9-1-1 services -- and ultimately the jurisdictions that may be providing those services.

6426 So in conclusion, we recognize that most of these comments are not necessarily related to systems that are regulated by the CRTC and we’re not suggesting a change in that role. However, we are suggesting that national coordination -- a coordinated approach to regulate organizations and PSAPs -- to regulated organizations and PSAP operators, will be a significant benefit to both of those organizations and ultimately to the public.

6427 SOREM has recognized the national significance of the 9-1-1 service in Canada and has taken steps, at the request of the provinces and territories, to include this vital service in the IWG agenda. While we focus on similar discussions related to the development of public safety broadband networks, we also recognize that 9-1-1 service will require its own parallel-focused attention so that it can contribute to resolving its current challenges during this evolution.

6428 We also recognize that the governance models cannot be developed entirely -- in silos, but rather needs to be developed in a collaborative and coordinated fashion with one another.

6429 We believe these priorities will contribute to a stronger, more standardized integrated national public 9-1-1 system that will allow the continued confidence of the public, meet the current and future technical and operational requirements of the telecommunications services providers and the public safety agencies that depend on it and allow 9-1-1 and all of its components to reach its full potential as a part of the public safety emergency communications continuum.

6430 Thank you for this opportunity, and I’ll turn it back over to Stéphanie.

6431 MS. DURAND: So as you’ve heard, the planning, coordination, and deployment of next-generation 9-1-1 in Canada is an area of national interest. The conversation at SOREM has also evolved within this topic.

6432 There are many issues to consider, as Duane has articulated. There are issues of training, of equipment, of public awareness, consistency in standards; how do we best leverage technology and ensure accessibility for all of Canadians needs? It’s also something that we cannot do quickly. It will require and phase and incremental approach.

6433 While the existing 9-1-1 system is decades old, it does continue to perform well. However, it does need an update and some modernization to deal with the demands of the public and how we can best ensure the safety and security of Canadians.

6434 Next-generation 9-1-1 is about building a system for the future. It provides the ability to transfer calls, messages, and data, like pictures or video, between any interconnected system, as well as ensure that responder communication systems are interoperable across the country. It’s about the ability to share data and ensure that communications is seamless.

6435 This is similar to other initiatives that we are advancing, including wireless public alerting and the public safety broadband filed.

6436 As you’ve also heard, NG9-1-1 fits within the continuum of emergency communication in ensuring that all key players are part of the solution. This is an area with shared responsibility, inter-jurisdictional accountabilities, and complex solutions.

6437 We’d also like to thank the CRTC for the work on this very important issue that will help advance the modernization of the 9-1-1 system in Canada. This is a key component of Canada’s emergency management response capability.

6438 We look forward to hearing about the results of this hearing and taking part in the next phase of this national dialogue with the diverse stakeholders involved in this emergency service. We are all committed to keeping Canadians safe and this is one important piece that we look forward to advancing together with all the different stakeholders and different levels of government to really advance this important file.

6439 Merci beaucoup.

6440 THE CHAIRMAN: Merci beaucoup. And thank you for having accepted our invitation to participate in the hearing.

6441 I think you may have heard me speak earlier today about the fact that -- and I agree with you that it’s a share responsibility in a number of aspects. But, broadly speaking, there are two buckets of issues. There are the network issues, which are within the CRTC’s oversight -- it doesn’t mean the CRTC does everything, but it’s in our oversight -- and then there’s the public safety aspects.

6442 And because we’ve been active, there’s a lot of issues that strike me as being more national security issues, or public security issues, that come on our table when we should be focusing on the network issues.

6443 So what is SOREM’s vision of next-generation 9-1-1 from a public safety perspective?

6444 MS. DURAND: So, again, what we’ve -- next-generation 9-1-1 was not an initiative that was on the SOREM agenda. This was something that was brought forward to SOREM, I believe a year ago; and at that time -- or maybe even more than a year ago -- at that time, it was deemed that this fell more within the provincial and territorial jurisdictions, and that SOREM was not the best forum to advance this type of conversation.

6445 Since then, there’s been a tremendous amount of progress in advancing nation priorities in the emergency management domain. And some of the issues that, perhaps, were not discussed at SOREM are not being brought forward because we’ve advanced the collaboration, how we work together from an FPT perspective, which is no longer the federal, and then the provincial and territorial, aspect but we’re really looking at national issues in its entirety.

6446 So as far as the position and the vision for NG9-1-1, I would say that’s a work in progress. We’ve added it just recently to the FPT IWG’s agenda, so this is something that we’ll be able to articulate as we bring this work forward. And again, this -- the discussion that you’re having will also be quite useful in shaping that thinking.

6447 THE CHAIRMAN: The Commission published its working plan on 9-1-1 in June 2014 and published the notice associated with this, although it was advertised, in our three-year plan almost a year ago. Why isn’t SOREM working a little faster?

6448 MR. McKAY: Yeah, that’s a really good question, and we get asked that on a number of files on a regular basis. Specifically, in this -- on the agenda around NG9-1-1, there was a lot of discussion at the PT table with respect to who has jurisdictional authority in those particular cases. It took some time for provinces and territories to recognize that this was a national interest. In some cases the provinces are not engaged in the delivery of this system.

6449 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you really think Canadians care who’s responsible? They want the outcomes, don’t they?

6450 MR. McKAY: Yes, but I don’t think Canadians understand clearly the crisis that 9-1-1 is facing with respect to NG91-1-1.

6451 THE CHAIRMAN: Should they? I mean that’s our role as leaders in government, as public servants, to occupy the field, to deal with technical issues that you can’t settle through Twitter accounts.

6452 MR. McKAY: Yes, and I think that there are two elements that you identified. There’s two buckets. The provinces probably are less concerned about the technical issues and more about the operational issues and then what the -- when those two buckets come together, how they create problems on either side of the -- within the other buckets.

6453 So the 9-1-1 system, as it currently operated today in a large part of the province, or in a large part of the country, isn’t NG9-1-1. It is enhanced 9-1-1 or basic 9-1-1. And so if you dial that, is it reasonably -- can you reasonably expect it to answer? It is the cause of the technology that is causing some of the update and the challenges in terms of, “How do we deal with the enhanced capabilities that NG9-1-1 are bringing?”

6454 THE CHAIRMAN: Earlier today, some of the witnesses suggested that there may be a leadership void on the public safety aspect -- not the network aspect; that’s being worked on either by us or through the emergency working group. Would you agree?

6455 MR. McKAY: I would agree. And, you know, in my comments I addressed that. There needs to be a national ---

6456 THE CHAIRMAN: So what’s the source of the void? Are the recommendations being made and it’s politicians not taking them seriously?

6457 MS. DURAND: So I think it was about the priority-setting. There’s a lot of, I would say, gaps that are currently being addressed. I think what we do need to recognize is that this has now been discussed at the FPT Ministers Meeting to be an item that we advance. I think the conversation we had in the past, there was a decision at the time that it not be brought forward to SOREM.

6458 And again, if I can just maybe bring greater awareness of what is SOREM; SOREM is comprised of the leaders of the emergency management organizations from the provincial and territorial government and Public Safety Canada. So there is also a forum where provincial and territorial members discuss, without the federal government, without Public Safety Canada at the table.

6459 This was brought forward to bring this initiative -- because I know this is not a new -- this is not a new topic of discussion but it was decided at the time that this was -- SOREM, with Public Safety and the provinces and territories, was not the best forum to advance those conversations.

6460 THE CHAIRMAN: Decided by whom?

6461 MS. DURAND: Decided by the provincial and territorial governments.

6462 THE CHAIRMAN: So the federal government wanted to go forward but the PTs did not?

6463 MS. DURAND: So we wanted to bring that forward, and it was -- again, it’s -- how decisions are made, it is a collaborative forum.

6464 THE CHAIRMAN: Right.

6465 I used to be responsible for an FPT table, a couple of them.

6466 MS. DURAND: Yes.

6467 THE CHAIRMAN: The federal government brought issues to the table because they thought it was important. We didn’t ask permission from the PTs.

6468 MS. DURAND: Understood. But emergency management, given how emergency management is governed, it is a very much -- there are jurisdictional lines and Public Safety Canada did not really -- does not really have that authority in that space.

6469 THE CHAIRMAN: Despite the fact that the federal government has police forces and responsibility for First Nation reserves and has a great deal of responsibility for parks and a great, important role about public safety and security in this country?

6470 MS. DURAND: And that’s why we’ve brought it back and now it’s being considered and we actually are going to be making -- are making progress.

6471 THE CHAIRMAN: Does the SOREM wish to have recommendations from the CRTC on this issue? Because you said earlier that you’re following what we’re doing.

6472 MS. DURAND: And I think we’ve made -- I think the work that the CRTC has done has been quite helpful in advancing certain initiatives where it is a domain of shared responsibility. So we do see that there is value and we very much appreciate the role as well that’s taking place with respect to public alerting. Again, that has helped, as well, advance some of the conversation that we’ve had with the telecommunications and the broadcasters. So I do think that we would value, again, that collaboration to advance and unpack this complex issue.

6473 THE CHAIRMAN: As part of this hearing, one of the threshold issues that we have to deal with is who would deliver the network components? Historically, it’s been the incumbent local exchange carriers that have provided that. Some parties in this proceeding are advocating that should be continued and others are suggesting that there should be, probably through an RFI/RFP process, the creation of a consortium that would deliver the network components through that process. Do you have views on that?

6474 MS. DURAND: Not at first glance. I’d have to have a bit more information on the pros and the cons.

6475 THE CHAIRMAN: We’ve been gathering information about that since the hearing was launched in May and you still don’t have a view?

6476 MS. DURAND: I’ve not paid -- not specific attention to that component.

6477 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So I take it -- just earlier in the week I was asking about the risk. Because some parties were asked whether the potential winning bidder from an RFI/RFP process could be a non-Canadian company. Does SOREM have a view as to the appropriateness of a non-Canadian entity operating Canada’s next-generation 9-1-1 service?

6478 MS. DURAND: Again, SOREM -- we’ve not had those type of conversation at the SOREM table. This is now a new initiative. I mean, there’s been different developments within each of the jurisdictions. But to bring it to that national FPT table, this is something that I would bring to the group and would not want to venture before having had the opportunity to discuss it.

6479 THE CHAIRMAN: Would the FPT consensus be that 9-1-1 services are a critical infrastructure?

6480 MR. McKAY: So in defining “critical infrastructure” I would say it would be a critical service. I’m not sure what your definition of “critical infrastructure” would be.

6481 THE CHAIRMAN: Is it something that were you involved in tendering, either federally or provincially, contracts for, would you invoke national security exceptions?

6482 MS. DURAND: So again, SOREM is not a body that would do that type of thing. Public Safety Canada often would advance initiatives or make -- you know, issue contracts on behalf of SOREM. So again, that’s something that we would bring back.

6483 But how SOREM works -- it’s not a body that has a status and it’s an entity. It’s a committee of senior officials which reports to an FPT Deputy Minister’s committee, which then has that FPT Minister’s table. So for some initiatives Public Safety Canada taken the lead to advance some work on behalf of the PTs.

6484 THE CHAIRMAN: And when I was growing up some people would tell me that if you’re not part of the solution you’re part of the problem.

6485 MS. DURAND: Well, I think we’re -- I mean, the way we bring the issues forward, we definitely bring it to a national conversation. And again, it’s a shared space so ---

6486 THE CHAIRMAN: But shared space means you have to occupy your space, doesn’t it?

6487 MS. DURAND: Absolutely.

6488 MR. McKAY: So just for clarification, then -- so is it suggested then that the federal government needs to occupy a space or SOREM needs to occupy a space? As Stéphanie has identified, SOREM is really a committee of provincial and territorial and the federal government collaboratively working together to determine policy around what it should do.

6489 Most of the decisions within the space of emergency management fall either to a municipality under the umbrella of a province or to the province, provincial authorities. So in the case of looking for a national opinion, we would have to take that question back to that group and find out what the individual opinions and consensus ultimately would be of the parts of SOREM.

6490 So SOREM isn’t a body that speaks on behalf of the province and territories; it’s more about collaboration and working together developing common interests in, I would say -- less than FPT and more now in the last 18 to 24 months -- about national interests.

6491 MS. DURAND: And from the Government of Canada we do bring other federal departments to the table. So Public Safety Canada -- for many of the initiatives that we advance we work in very close collaboration with Environment and Climate Change Canada, NRCan, ISED. So it is about we represent and we work together with our other federal partners and work with the provincial and territorial jurisdictions.

6492 THE CHAIRMAN: I appreciate your perspective that maybe SOREM isn’t the body, but the fact of the matter is that throughout this proceeding, which has been very public and which everybody was invited to participate, there seems to be a consensus that this will be an iterative process to move to next-generation 9-1-1. It will require a great deal of coordination and collaboration. But the Commission, under its oversight, only has part of that. So who is responsible for the public safety aspect to it, to ensure coordination?

6493 MS. DURAND: So I do think that with the decision from FPT ministers, we’ve been tasked to look at this important issue. So obviously this will be something that -- I mean, the reason why we also wanted to come talk with you today is to note the progress that’s happened in this domain, that the timing as well is a good one as we are looking at other emergency communications components.

6494 So it does fit within the continuum of files that we are advancing, like I mentioned, the Public Safety Broadband Network, which is a similar complex, multi-stakeholder; different jurisdictions have a role. Public alerting as well is another area where there is the shared responsibility with many different actors. And this NG9-1-1 is another very important aspect that’s key to ensuring the public safety.

6495 So if you’re looking to which federal department is best placed to play that broad leadership role, Public Safety Canada certainly is the department that brings the right players and has that relationship with the tri-services, with the provincial and territorial governments with respect to emergency management. And I do think that the timing -- it does fit within the conversation, the dialogue that we’re having. So there’s an opportunity to leverage some of the conversation because there are similar stakeholders and players that we are working with on the other files.

6496 So the results of your hearing will be quite informative in shaping the path forward, and for us to be part of the next steps and to look at how we can advance this in a timely way.

6497 THE CHAIRMAN: CITIG has indicated that the Public Safety Broadband Network might be a natural conduit for emergency responders to access new forms of data. Could you help us understand where you are in the deployment of that PSBN and comment on that potential use for that network?

6498 MS. DURAND: So CITIG -- are you familiar with that organization and -- okay. So they are now part -- the tri-services and CITIG are now part of our FPT Interoperability Working Group. As far as the deployment right now, we're looking at what are the best -- what's the best governance structure to manage a future PSBN; what are the different deployment models, because there are a variety of different options to explore; and what are the user requirements of the use case to make sure that what we build will be what the first responders and what -- also what the federal agencies for security, what they need, as far as the interoperability components.

6499 So this is also a very complex and involves many different aspects, including municipal government, obviously, private sector. So we are in a planning stages to really understand what's the best options to move that forward for consideration.

6500 And governance, similar to NG9-1-1, making sure that we have the right governance, given that it is a domain of shared responsibility, is critical, and we're going to be spending some time and we've created three working groups to tackle those three buckets of work that I've just talked about: governance, deployment options, as well as user requirements.

6501 THE CHAIRMAN: I take it from that it would be fair to say that's -- the actual decisions on all those are a little bit -- some time out in the future?

6502 MS. DURAND: Correct.

6503 THE CHAIRMAN: In this proceeding, we've had parties raise issues when we've asked questions about the volume of potential new info points coming into PSAPs -- from videos to photos to all kinds of other things, medical records and so forth -- raise concerns that they may not have the financial ability, whether as primary or secondary PSAPs, to take on the responsibility to store, maintain, preserve, apply appropriate privacy rules.

6504 And one can conclude that there may be cost barriers to the deployment of NG9-1-1 in this country, even though there may be some benefits to having a more robust NG9-1-1, quite apart from the fact that maybe the current one is in need of significant investment.

6505 Does SOREM discuss potential federal-provincial cost-sharing models?

6506 MR. McKAY: At this particular point, no. The -- this goes back to sort of ---

6507 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, the only federal-provincial table where money's not just spoken about.

6508 MR. McKAY: Well ---

6509 MS. DURAND: So not on ---

6510 MR. McKAY: --- not on ---

6511 MS. DURAND: So maybe not on NG9-1-1.

6512 MR. McKAY: Not on NG9-1-1, yes. So there's ---

6513 MS. DURAND: (Inaudible).

6514 MR. McKAY: There's always money discussed. In this particular case, no. So this was -- this goes really back to the complex questions you were asking before about you know, where does this lie and whose responsibility and so on. In most cases, these are municipal responsibilities delivered at that level, and with -- in some cases, with provincial systems, some without. And this is really sort of the crux of the situation is, how do you scale this up so that all levels of government are engaged in supporting the services?

6515 Certainly in Saskatchewan, in my experience, we have operational fees tagged to the telephone bills. It generates money and incomes into the system. It is not used anywhere else. It's isolated specifically for that. But in saying that, as we've implemented the first phase of NG9-1-1, which is text, our costs associated with delivering that service are extremely high. It's not that we can't handle those, but as more demands on that service go up, then of course, it will start to impact the ability to maintain those over a long period of time.

6516 And of course, as 9-1-1 is doing this, we have no place to place that downstream. So it's not just the 9-1-1 system, it's all the consequential moves downstream, in terms of secondary PSAPs, fusion centres, the investigative components within police services, health records, and so on. So it's not just around just the gathering in of that information. It's all of the components.

6517 And I don't think that the municipalities or the provincial authorities that are engaged or IWG, has even wrestled with fixing the local issues before we move on to the larger ones. It's a challenge.

6518 THE CHAIRMAN: So I take it even from whether it's SOREM or sub-working groups that you're still trying to get your head around issues about what your data points should be shared with whom, to whom, whether it's a pull or a push? All those are issues that are still under evaluation?

6519 MS. DURAND: So if I can maybe qualify the previous intervention, so obviously, at SOREM, when an initiative is ready to -- and we've studied it and we understand, you know, the business case and what we want to accomplish, obviously costing is discussed and is something that then we would tackle through normal FPT processes.

6520 As far as NG9-1-1, this is a new topic that's being brought to the FPTIWG. We have not tackled it yet. We've been focusing right now on the Public Safety Broadband Network as a priority. Now, we've added NG9-1-1 in the work plan, and will be an area that we will unpack and most likely build on some of the conversations that have already taken place.

6521 And some of the members that have appeared at your hearing are part of our working group, so we do -- we will have the reach to be able to build on what the Coalition of the Willing has done and other work that's taking place, but it has not come up at the -- officially at the FPTIWG. That will be something that we will advance once we have a dent as well in the -- because right now, we're really focusing our efforts on the next phase for the PSBN file.

6522 THE CHAIRMAN: My final area of questions -- it's not a -- much a question, but before I turn it to my colleagues if they have any questions.

6523 Obviously, your evidence here suggests that it's an ongoing evaluative process, even from your side. Would you undertake to provide us updates on a regular basis as to the work of SOREM and provide it to the hearing secretary in the normal course? You can provide offline exactly how you would do that, including, if you need to, asking for confidentiality if some things require confidentiality. Would you undertake to do that?

6524 MS. DURAND: Yeah, absolutely.


6526 So as I've mentioned, we've worked -- I mean, if -- the work that you have embarked on has been has been very helpful in several of our initiatives, so absolutely. I think this is -- will be beneficial for us to give updates as well as seek guidance, given the extensive work that you've done in this domain.

6527 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. It would appear that there are no other questions from my colleagues, nor from legal counsel, which I'm sure you're happy to hear. But thank you for having agreed to appear, and we look forward to hearing the other developments.

6528 MR. McKAY: Great, and thank you for inviting us.

6529 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

6530 Mme DURAND: Merci.

6531 LE PRÉSIDENT: Merci beaucoup.

6532 Madam Secretary, are there any other intervenors?

6533 THE SECRETARY: No, Mr. Chairman. This completes the agenda.

6534 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. So just before I close the hearing, I just would like to thank a few people that -- you know, that make these hearings possible.

6535 Et particulièrement les interprètes et les sténographes qui nous aident à bien comprendre et se rappeler de ce qui a été dit.

6536 Je tiens à remercier tout particulièrement le personnel du CRTC, qu'ils soient ici à notre administration centrale ou dans les régions pour leur travail et dévouement et surtout pour les heures de temps supplémentaire souvent nécessaire pour la préparation.

6537 I would also like to thank my colleague commissioners. They’ve, I know, put a lot of time into preparing the hearing so far. We're not quite done, but getting to a public hearing and preparing for questioning is always a monumental task, and I thank them for that time.

6538 Je tiens à rappeler aux parties que, pour la plupart -- y a une exception si je ne me trompe pas -- que les engagements d'information supplémentaire sont dus le 24 janvier, tels que fournis dans les documents publics du Conseil, et que les soumissions finales dans le dossier sont dues le 31 janvier.

6539 So all parties, please respect the undertaking dates, which are the 24th of January, and final submissions on the 31st of January.

6540 So thank you very much and this phase of the hearing, the oral phase, is adjourned. Thank you. Merci.

--- Upon adjourning at 2:34 p.m.

Court Reporters

Sean Prouse

Mathieu Bastien-Marcil

Lyne Charbonneau

Julie Payette

Ian Schryer

Kathy Poirier

Karen Noganosh

Krisa Campbell

Renée Vaive

Mathieu Philippe

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