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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES SUBJECT / SUJET: PUBLIC CONSULTATION ON THE CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION (CBC)/ CONSULTATIONS PUBLIQUES SUR LA SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC) HELD AT: TENUE À: Crown Plaza Crown Plaza Victoria Albert Room Salle Victoria Albert 350 St. Mary Avenue 350, avenue St. Mary Winnipeg, Manitoba Winnipeg (Manitoba) March 9, 1999 Le 9 mars 1999 tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668 Transcripts In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of Contents. However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the public hearing. Transcription Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience publique ainsi que la table des matières. Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l'audience publique. StenoTran Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des télécommunications canadiennes Transcript / Transcription Public Hearing / Audience publique PUBLIC CONSULTATION ON THE CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION (CBC)/ CONSULTATIONS PUBLIQUES SUR LA SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC) BEFORE / DEVANT: Barbara Cram Chairperson / Présidente Andrée Wylie Vice-Chairperson, Radio- television / Vice- présidente, Radiodiffusion ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS: Carolyn Pinsky Commission Counsel / Avocat du Conseil Rod Lahay Broadcasting Planning Services / Service de la planification de la radiodiffusion Gary Krushen Director, Winnipeg Regional Office / Directeur régional, Winnipeg HELD AT: TENUE À: Crown Plaza Crown Plaza Victoria Albert Room Salle Victoria Albert 350 St. Mary Avenue 350, avenue St. Mary Winnipeg, Manitoba Winnipeg (Manitoba) March 9, 1999 Le 9 mars 1999 StenoTran ii TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES PAGE Presentation by / Présentation par: Ms Olena Ziombra 5 Ms Valerie Wadepool 9 Ms Ann Pedersen 15 Mr. Roy Benson 21 Mr. Bill Harrison 33 Mr. Carl Ridd 36 Ms Trish Masniuk 55 Mr. Jesse Vorst 65 Mr. Gordon Toombs 73 Mr. Brian McLeod 81 Ms Jamie Davidson 87 Ms Mary Hewitt-Smith 93 Mr. David Northcott 99 Ms Cheryl Ashton 104 Ms Carol Vivier 108 Mr. Murray Smith 115 Mr. Herbert Schulz 122 Mr. Kenneth Emberley 132 Mr. Ed Bachewich 141 Mr. Garnet Angeconeb 155 Mr. Dave Walley 164 Ms Tirzah Sharpe 172 StenoTran iii TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES PAGE Presentation by / Présentation par: Ms Rita Menzies 177 Mr. Edward Hiebert 181 Ms Delaney Earthdancer 187 Mr. Bill Toews 196 Ms Janis Kaminsky 203 Ms Maxine Hasselriis 209 Mr. Maurice Strasfeld 213 and Ms Celine Papillon Ms Laurie Ankenman 219 Ms Phyllis Abbe 224 and Mr. Mel Christian Mr. Harold Shuster 228 Mr. Al Mackling 233 and Mr. Dave Mackling Ms Elizabeth Fleming 243 Ms Linda McMillan 246 Mr. Ian Ross 252 Mr. Don Laluk 258 Reply by / Réponse par: Mr. John Bertrand 261 StenoTran 1 1 Winnipeg, Manitoba / Winnipeg (Manitoba) 2 --- Upon commencing on Tuesday, March 9, 1999 3 at 1304 / L'audience commence le mardi 4 9 mars 1999 à 1304 5 1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good day, ladies 6 and gentlemen, and welcome to this public consultation 7 on the CBC. 8 2 My name is Barbara Cram and I am a 9 CRTC Commissioner. 10 3 We are here to gather your views and 11 comments on CBC radio and television. In your opinion, 12 how should the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation fulfil 13 its role in the coming years? 14 4 The CBC is a national public service, 15 broadcasting in English as well as in French. It plays 16 an important role in the Canadian broadcasting system. 17 Today, many elements are constantly being added to the 18 broadcasting system, as new technologies multiply, 19 converge, open up new horizons, and increasingly offer 20 new services. In this context, we want to know what 21 are your needs and expectations as viewers and 22 listeners of the CBC. 23 5 Given that, it is very important that 24 the Commission hears what you have to say. We must not 25 lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public StenoTran 2 1 organization that serves Canadian citizens. In this 2 capacity, we are responsible to you. This is why my 3 fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to come 4 and meet with you to discuss these issues and why we 5 are holding this series of regional consultations, from 6 one end of the country to the other, in eleven Canadian 7 cities, from today until 18th. 8 6 These consultations are designed to 9 give you a chance, on the eve of a new millennium, to 10 express your opinion on the CBC's role, the programming 11 it offers and the direction it should take at the 12 national, regional and local levels. 13 7 Through these consultations we hope 14 to enter into an open dialogue with you and to hear 15 your concerns. Your comments will from part of the 16 public record which will be added to the record of the 17 public hearing on the CBC beginning in Hull on May 25. 18 8 At this upcoming hearing, the 19 Commission will examine the CBC's application for the 20 renewal of its licences, including radio, television 21 and its specialty services, Newsworld and Réseau de 22 l'information. You can also take part in that public 23 hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 24 If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the 25 specific licence renewals being examined when you file StenoTran 3 1 your comments. 2 9 Now, I would like to come back to 3 today. 4 10 Please allow me to introduce the CRTC 5 staff that is here. Carolyn Pinsky, our legal counsel. 6 This is Mr. Lahay. He has a new outfit today. I think 7 he is on an airplane coming here. Please feel free to 8 call upon either Carolyn or Mr. Lahay, when he does 9 arrive, with any questions you might have about the 10 process today, or any other matter. 11 11 So that you will all have an 12 opportunity to speak, we ask that you please limit your 13 presentations to ten minutes. As these consultations 14 are a forum primarily designed for you, we want to 15 listen to as many participants as possible and we will 16 not ask questions unless we require clarification. 17 12 At the end of the session, 18 representatives of the local CBC stations will have a 19 chance to offer their views, as they are naturally very 20 interested by the issues we are discussing here today. 21 13 Before we start, I would ask Carolyn 22 Pinsky, our legal counsel, to go over some of the 23 housekeeping matters regarding the conduct of this 24 hearing. 25 14 Thank you. StenoTran 4 1 15 MS PINSKY: Thank you, 2 Commissioner Cram. 3 16 Firstly, there are translation 4 services available in the other room if anybody 5 requires them. 6 17 In order to sort of set out the 7 process a bit, what I will be doing is calling up 8 10 presenters at a time and at that time if you will 9 all come up and take a place around the table. I will 10 then call each presenter individually in turn to make 11 their presentation and they will have approximately 12 10 minutes to do so. 13 18 When you begin your presentation, to 14 assist the court reporter, please ensure that your 15 microphone is on, you just press the button in the 16 front, and when you have completed that it is turned 17 off. 18 19 For those who are in the audience 19 today and who don't wish to make a presentation, we do 20 have comment forms available at the front table if you 21 wish to put some thoughts in writing and then those 22 will be placed on the public file as well. 23 20 So without further ado, I think I 24 will call the first 10 presenters: Olena Ziombra -- 25 and you can just come up and take a place at the table, StenoTran 5 1 please -- Valerie Wadepool (ph); Ann Pedersen; 2 Roy Benson; Bill Harrison; Carl Ridd; Trish Masniuk; 3 Gordon Toombs; and Brian McLeod. 4 --- Short pause / Courte pause 5 21 MS PINSKY: We do seem to have room 6 around the table and time, so perhaps I will call 7 Jamie Davidson as well because he hadn't originally -- 8 I'm sorry -- she hadn't been scheduled. 9 --- Short pause / Courte pause 10 22 MS PINSKY: We will now begin. 11 23 I would first ask Olena Ziombra to 12 make a presentation. 13 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 14 24 MS ZIOMBRA: Thank you for the 15 invitation from the CRTC Commission. 16 25 The Canadian Broadcasting 17 Corporation, CBC, Radio-Canada sent me a letter because 18 I attended a CBC open house on October 1998 in 19 Winnipeg. 20 26 The Canadian Radio-television and 21 Telecommunications Commission, CRTC, wants to know what 22 Canadians think of CBC radio and television. 23 27 I think very highly of the English 24 radio network at the regional and national level. 25 Television I don't watch too often and I think it's StenoTran 6 1 satisfactory. 2 28 I am very proud of CBC broadcasters, 3 the Commission, and management because they are 4 representing Canada, Canadians from different 5 nationalities, ethnic groups and Canadian living for 6 the world. 7 29 CBC technicians and other employers 8 are on strike and they paralyse the CBC networks from 9 coast to coast. They should be revived morally and 10 financially and send them back to work or some could 11 get transferred close to their parents and work there 12 for CBC, the same work they perform in the old place if 13 they like it. 14 30 Questions, it says here, from CRTC: 15 "In your view, how well does the 16 CBC fulfil its role in national 17 public broadcasting? In the new 18 millennium, should the CBC serve 19 the public and fulfil its role 20 in a different manner than it 21 has in the past?" (As read) 22 31 The answer: Not really necessarily, 23 but if they have better ideas than the old ones, they 24 could try it. 25 32 Question: StenoTran 7 1 "How well does the CBC serve the 2 public on a regional as well as 3 national level?" (As read) 4 33 Radio programs at regional/national 5 levels are very good. 6 "Should the programming provided 7 by CBC radio and television be 8 different from that provided by 9 other broadcasters? If so, what 10 should these differences be?" 11 (As read) 12 34 Answer: Differences should be the 13 best programs available in moral, educational, 14 cultural, financial, religious, music, news, and 15 children's programs because they meet the standards and 16 they are representing Canada in a regional and national 17 field. 18 35 For example, Mr. Prime Minister often 19 is saying in his speech: Canada is the best country in 20 the world. Which is true. So the broadcasters and 21 technicians should be happy, too, with the CBC. 22 "Is there a special role that 23 the CBC should play in the 24 presentation of Canadian 25 programs? If so, what should StenoTran 8 1 this role be?" (As read) 2 36 Answer: Less sports programs on TV. 3 The Canadians are not interested in sports. Instead of 4 sports they should have more ethnic group programs on 5 the radio and also on TV, at least 10 to 12 hours per 6 week, like Ukrainian programs and other ethnic groups. 7 37 To the President of CBC, 8 Mr. Beattie (ph), radio and TV broadcasters, employees 9 across Canada and CRTC, Mr. Bertrand, all the best in 10 the future. No more strikes. The management of CBC 11 and the union should come to a fast agreement and 12 everybody who works for CBC radio should be satisfied, 13 healthy, wealthy and live a successful life. 14 38 Thank you all for your attention. 15 39 Also, thank you Judy Butler for her 16 service. It's a pleasure to be here. 17 40 Yacho Uzawara (ph) and my name is 18 Olena Ziombra. 19 41 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 20 42 Ms Ziombra, do you live in Winnipeg? 21 43 MS ZIOMBRA: Yes, I am. 22 44 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you. 23 45 Please sit down when you are giving 24 your presentations. We are trying to sort of create 25 a -- StenoTran 9 1 46 MS ZIOMBRA: I'm very sorry. 2 47 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, no, no. 3 I should have said it at the first. That was my fault. 4 48 MS PINSKY: The next presenter is 5 Valerie Wadepool. 6 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 7 49 MS WADEPOOL: Yes. My name is 8 Valerie Wadepool and I am representing Neil Slykerman 9 who is the President of Campaign Life Coalition 10 Manitoba, a national organization which has as its aim 11 the promotion of the family as the basic building block 12 in society and the legal protection of all human life 13 from the moment of fertilization to natural death. 14 50 I welcome the opportunity to voice 15 the concerns of our organization with respect to CBC 16 reporting on some social issues covered by your mandate 17 as an organization. 18 51 It is our opinion that the CBC has 19 been less than fair on a number of occasions on these 20 issues in the past. However, we want to address 21 ourselves, in particular, to the element of bias in a 22 documentary aired on January 19th of this year in 23 connection with the shooting of abortionist Dr. Barnet 24 Slepian (ph) in New York last fall on CBC's News 25 Magazine. StenoTran 10 1 52 Television, to be sure, is a most 2 powerful educator, highly influential and shaping the 3 public's minds on all kinds of issues and concerns. It 4 is a powerful tool which reaches far and wide into the 5 hearts and minds of a multitude of Canadians. 6 53 At the heart of a democracy lies the 7 right to knowledge. This includes knowledge on 8 controversial social issues. Such issues especially 9 must be dealt with in a responsible, non-biased manner 10 and reflect core values which have long since become 11 engrained in society. 12 54 A balanced objective presentation of 13 such issues can go a long way toward a fair debate 14 among Canadians on these issues. It is not for the 15 media to control that debate, only to present the 16 facts. In presenting the facts, fairness and balance 17 must be a guiding force. In our opinion, the 18 aforementioned documentary, which was aired under the 19 title "Thou Shalt Not Kill", was a departure from this 20 principle. Allow me to explain. 21 55 The mainstream pro-life movement in 22 Canada does not agree and in fact strongly disagrees 23 with the statements made by U.S. pastors 24 Mat Truhela (ph) and Michael Grey (ph) to the effect 25 that shooting an abortionist is not murder. This has StenoTran 11 1 the immediate effect of implicating the Canadian 2 pro-life movement as a whole and putting it in a 3 negative light. These statements represent a radical 4 view by a small U.S. segment of the anti-abortion 5 movement, which is not supported by pro-lifers at all. 6 To pro-lifers, every human life is sacred and people 7 who support the killing of an abortionist are in fact 8 not pro-life. 9 56 Even though representatives of 10 Canadian pro-life groups strongly condemned the 11 shooting, a statement made again and again by these 12 representatives but largely ignored by the media, the 13 CBC had to rely on the help of this American group of 14 radicals to get its message across which covered the 15 bulk of the documentary. 16 57 If the CBC had any knowledge of the 17 pro-life movement in Canada, while still maintaining a 18 non-biased stance, it would not have dared to associate 19 it in any way with this radical group. Thus, the 20 pro-abortion mind set, which appears to run through all 21 our media, was well represented in this documentary. 22 58 Without linking these American 23 radicals to Canada's pro-life movement, the CBC would 24 have had no show at all. Even the only segment in the 25 documentary which was Canadian in content, the "Show StenoTran 12 1 the Truth" segment, was depicted to be a violent 2 demonstration which it definitely is not. "Show the 3 Truth" is a peaceful protest by concerned citizens 4 showing the reality of abortion to the public. 5 59 Campaign Life Coalition protests the 6 airing of this type of unfair reactionary coverage. It 7 appears that the only purpose of this documentary was 8 to discredit the mainstream Canadian pro-life movement. 9 By this presentation, the CBC was successful in 10 distorting the issue of abortion-related violence in 11 Canada in the minds of countless Canadians. A real 12 service would have been provided to the Canadian public 13 if the content of this program would have been more 14 balanced. 15 60 What's more, if the CBC were 16 interested in saving human lives, it would have paid 17 much more attention to what Canadian pro-lifers had to 18 say about the shooting of Dr. Barnet Slepian. Perhaps 19 this is too much to ask and we can only urge the CBC to 20 be more balanced in its coverage. 21 61 On another subject, the CBC is by 22 Canadians for Canadians, and we find it puzzling that 23 the House of Commons Debates on the Parliament Network 24 can only be viewed by cable or dish subscribers who 25 receive largely American content programming of StenoTran 13 1 American origin. Rural homes which have no cable 2 access are also deprived of this most Canadian 3 programming. 4 62 To provide the debates through CBC, 5 regularly scheduled programming may remain in place. 6 The CBC could use the off hours after the late night 7 programs and before the 6:30 a.m. news. You may be 8 surprised how many would watch or tape this 9 broadcasting to be viewed later. This is a service the 10 CBC should be providing. 11 63 On a personal level, though other 12 members of our group concur, the CBC often is an oasis 13 in a desert of mostly mindless noise with little 14 substance to choose from. Where Americans have 15 membership networks with more cultural informative 16 content than commercial networks, Canadians have the 17 CBC. Particularly, CBC radio is the station of choice 18 of our members. This topic came up as an aside at an 19 executive meeting, so I do not say this from guesswork. 20 The music, the classical and jazz is highly 21 appreciated, as are many of the documentaries. Some 22 documentaries of emerging countries are so interesting 23 and well done that the visuals are not even missed. 24 Congratulations. 25 64 In closing, I want to thank the CRTC StenoTran 14 1 for the opportunity to be heard. I hope these remarks 2 were within the parameters suggested for this 3 presentation and that they will be considered. 4 65 Thank you very much. 5 66 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Could you 6 please have her repeat her name and the name of her 7 organization, please? 8 67 MS WADEPOOL: Valerie Wadepool, 9 Campaign Life Coalition. 10 68 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Thank you. 11 69 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Wadepool, are 12 you from Winnipeg also? 13 70 MS WADEPOOL: Yes, I am. 14 71 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any 15 other instances of what you would call unbalanced 16 programming that you have seen? 17 72 MS WADEPOOL: I don't have anything 18 written down in particular or anything that I can call 19 to mind right now because unfortunately, for some 20 reason -- I don't have cable because there is a lot of 21 programming on cable that I do not want to bring into 22 my home and I have to buy it as a package, so I just 23 have the antenna, and for some reason I have terrible 24 reception of CBC television personally. So I can't say 25 anything about that. StenoTran 15 1 73 But that's another thing I could go 2 off on a tangent about, these packages that I am forced 3 to buy channels which would never fly if they had to 4 depend on commercials and such. There are some 5 terrible -- and everybody agrees with me that I have 6 asked about those. 7 74 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 8 75 MS WADEPOOL: Thank you. 9 76 MS PINSKY: Thank you. I would ask 10 next Ann Pedersen. 11 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 12 77 MS PEDERSEN: Hello. I'm 13 Ann Pedersen. 14 78 CBC radio and television have been 15 part of my life for as long as I can remember. I grew 16 up watching Disneyland, Don Messers Jubilee, 17 Tommy Hunter and Hockey Night in Canada. I cut my real 18 adult teeth listening to Peter Gzowski This Country in 19 the Morning during my post-secondary education years. 20 79 For a few years I tried out all of 21 the other stations on radio and TV, but soon found that 22 they did not have much to offer but the same 10 songs 23 or the same situations/role played out on every sitcom 24 imaginable. I came back to the CBC. 25 80 When my children were small I again StenoTran 16 1 enjoyed Peter Gzowski, this time on Morningside. Today 2 I have CBC Radio One on all day at home and in my 3 vehicle. I listen to Information Radio with 4 Terry MacLeod, This Morning with Avril Benoit and 5 Michael Enright; Radio Noon with Susan Magus (ph); 6 Questionnaire with Donald Benam (ph); The Roundup with 7 Bill Richardson, and The Afternoon Edition with Maureen 8 Pendergast (ph). 9 81 In the evening and on weekends, I 10 often tune into such programs as As It Happens with 11 Barbara Bud and Mary-Lou Finlay (ph); Ideas with Lister 12 Sinclair; DNTO or Definitely Not the Opera with Nora 13 Young; and Quirks & Quarks with Bob MacDonald (ph). No 14 other radio station can provide the kind of enjoyment 15 and information I get from CBC. 16 82 CBC television offers excellent 17 programming too. Comedy in the forms of Red Green, 18 This Hour Has 22 Minutes and Comics. Documentaries 19 like Witness and Life and Times; journalism programs 20 such as Fifth Estate, Market Place and Venture; and 21 science programs such as The Nature of Things. In most 22 cases, these are family shows that we can all enjoy and 23 learn from. 24 83 Lifelong learning is a term touted by 25 many organizations today. Learning comes from many StenoTran 17 1 different areas not just colleges and universities. I 2 am a firm believer in lifelong learning and the CBC, 3 both radio and television, continue to be part of my 4 university. 5 84 Thousands of other Canadians who are 6 at home by choice or who cannot get out also enjoy this 7 kind of learning opportunity. It is our lifeline. 8 Where else could we learn about the great citizens of 9 this country, some ordinary and some unique, all while 10 carrying out daily mundane but very necessary household 11 chores and the all important job of raising a healthy 12 family? 13 85 The CBC strives not only to inform 14 and enlighten, but also to show a remarkable talent in 15 promoting Canadians who make a difference. It is to the 16 CBC's credit that I have learned more about Nunavut and 17 what it will mean to its people than from any other 18 news source. 19 86 Issues affecting local farmers and 20 communities are presented in a fashion that is easily 21 understood by anyone. 22 87 Canadian superstars and local heroes 23 of many walks of life are all highlighted on CBC. 24 88 Political pundits and analysts, 25 newspaper editors, the many volunteers of this great StenoTran 18 1 country, musicians and artists ranging from those just 2 breaking onto their respective scenes to those who have 3 made it big, sports achievements and failures, and just 4 average Canadians are featured daily on CBC radio and 5 television. I can't get that anywhere else. 6 89 As a national public broadcaster, CBC 7 is able to inform me of the issues that affect each 8 area of the country and why they are important, both to 9 the local people and to me. They do this in a timely 10 manner. 11 90 Coverage of the ice storm in eastern 12 Canada and the flood of the century in Manitoba are two 13 excellent examples of how CBC fulfils its role as a 14 national public broadcaster. Many people who never 15 tuned to CBC before were getting essential information 16 from the CBC during the flood. 17 91 Too much emphasis is being placed on 18 the new millennium. The Year 2000, or Y2K as computer 19 buffs like to call it, is just a number like all other 20 years, the only difference there will be could be due 21 to computers. It will arrive much like others and end 22 similarly. It's only fanfare will be human made. 23 92 Should the CBC fulfil its role in a 24 different manner than it has in the past? The answer 25 is an unequivocal no. StenoTran 19 1 93 The CBC is a continually evolving 2 institution that fulfils its role as a national public 3 broadcaster by dropping that which doesn't work and 4 innovating ways to present new items often into 5 existing programming. The one thing that has held them 6 back is continual cuts in funding. This funding must 7 be restored. 8 94 The CBC serves the public regionally 9 here very well. Information Radio, Radio Noon and The 10 Afternoon Edition, all on the radio, provide 11 programming and information that keep me up to date on 12 regional events and issues as well as items of national 13 interest. The 24 Hours news program on CBC television 14 also provides excellent local, regional and national 15 coverage. 16 95 The CBC has always been different in 17 what it provides to its audience. Its programming can 18 generally be watched by or listened to by people of all 19 ages. It has a tendency toward family-oriented viewing 20 and listening, a trend on which I expect to continue to 21 rely. Other Canadian television stations seem to 22 believe that sex and/or violence needs to pervade every 23 aspect of viewing regardless of the time of day or 24 evening. Thankfully, the CBC does not share that 25 belief. StenoTran 20 1 96 Please allow the CBC to continue 2 their high quality broadcasting. 3 97 I believe that presentation of 4 Canadian programming should be done not just because 5 its Canadian but because it is good quality 6 programming. We as Canadians have proven to the world 7 that we are capable of producing news, entertainment, 8 documentaries, series, sports, comedy and journalism 9 that can not only compete, but is actually in demand in 10 other countries. 11 98 CBC radio and television present 12 programming that is not only entertaining, it is often 13 thought provoking and easily becomes the basis for 14 future discussion on a wide variety of topics that no 15 other broadcaster can boast. It is this discussion 16 that can keep us together as a people and a country for 17 without discussion there is no understanding. Where 18 there is no understanding there is no tolerance. 19 Without tolerance we grow apart and learn hatred. 20 99 Canadians are a diverse people, 21 originating from points all over the globe. This 22 diversity in origins and culture has caused us to be 23 the most inventive nation in the world. We are able to 24 learn and cull from the best of all cultures and thus 25 become the United Nations number one place to live. StenoTran 21 1 100 The CBC has been the very fabric that 2 brings Canadians of all cultures and origins together 3 in one facet or another. I urge the CRTC to restore 4 funding to previous levels and to allow the CBC to 5 continue to fulfil its natural role in Canada, that of 6 public educator. 7 101 Thank you. 8 --- Applause / Applaudissement 9 102 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 10 Ms Pedersen. 11 103 My notes here say you come from 12 Springstein (ph). 13 104 MS PEDERSEN: That's correct. 14 105 THE CHAIRPERSON: And where is that? 15 106 MS PEDERSEN: Springstein is just 16 outside the city, about a 15-20 minute drive. 17 107 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 18 108 MS PINSKY: I will ask Roy Benson to 19 be the next presenter, please. 20 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 21 109 MR. BENSON: Thank you very much. 22 110 I don't think that I will probably 23 use up my full 10 minutes, but one never knows. 24 111 I do have a few things that I'm glad 25 to have the opportunity to say. One of them is that StenoTran 22 1 man and boy for awhile -- I'll tell you, over 50 2 years -- I have listened to and enjoyed the CBC. I 3 find nothing wrong with it that I can be critical of. 4 From time to time it produces a program that doesn't 5 particularly interest me. But that's all right, it 6 interests someone else and that's fine. We all have 7 something for all of us on the CBC. 8 112 I have been very distressed over the 9 last decade or so at the incessant cuts in funding that 10 the CBC has received from Ottawa and I would request 11 that the CRTC do all of the lobbying that they are able 12 to encourage the federal government to restore the CBC 13 enough money so they can do the job that they did 14 before and indeed restore all of that funding and more. 15 113 We cannot get too much of the 16 excellent service the CBC has always provided us. 17 114 One of the ladies speaking earlier 18 referred to the cacophony of sound that we get out of 19 the other stations and I must admit that 25 years ago I 20 would sometimes listen to another station for its news 21 or something on my way to work, and I stopped that 22 because I realized the others had nothing on them 23 whatsoever except noise and news and they simply 24 weren't worth wasting my time on. 25 115 I would make another suggestion StenoTran 23 1 vis-à-vis CBC television. To that I would draw your 2 attention that CBC radio enjoys the opportunity to 3 operate without those stupid, stupid commercials. You 4 know, you have to have a brain that's not more than 5 three years' old for some of them, and even then I 6 think they are insulting. 7 116 Is it possible that the CRTC could 8 enact some sort of limitation on the private 9 broadcasting networks that they do not repeatedly 10 insult our intelligence with commercials that are 11 intensely offensive? 12 117 At times at home my wife reproves me 13 because I have developed a habit of answering back to 14 them. She threatens to record it, but I don't think 15 she will ever play what I say publicly. I would just 16 as soon she didn't. 17 118 But to your first question -- oh, one 18 more comment. I would like to say that, as far as I 19 can recall, I fully endorse and agree with absolutely 20 everything the lady preceding me had to say. I think 21 it was very, very to the point, very well thought 22 through and very eloquently presented. 23 119 I'm retired so I feel no particular 24 onus on me to think things through very carefully or 25 arrange them or present them particularly well. I have StenoTran 24 1 a tendency to let them just sort of roll out as they 2 come. I don't ever want to hurt anyone's feelings, but 3 I don't care if you like it or not. I no longer am 4 being paid, so therefore I will do it as I see fit. 5 Well, I get a pension, but they can't do anything with 6 it. 7 120 On your first question about how well 8 the CBC fulfils its role as a national public 9 broadcaster, I think it does that excellently, as some 10 of you may have inferred by my comments. 11 121 I feel that in the new millennium the 12 CBC -- actually, the new millennium, you know, doesn't 13 make any difference. What we are really talking about 14 there, if you use those words correctly, is the next 15 thousand years, and I for one am not prepared to make 16 solid recommendations as to what the CBC should do over 17 the next thousand years. The next four or five 18 perhaps, the next 10, but even I have a limited life 19 expectancy. 20 122 At any rate, I feel that in the 21 immediate future, as long as I'm alive, the CBC should 22 continue to improve its services as it has improved 23 them over the many years in the past. I think they are 24 superb. There is no private sector broadcasting 25 station, either radio or television, that is fit to be StenoTran 25 1 in the same room with the CBC. They are just a blight 2 on the face of the airwaves. I worry for the radios 3 and TV sets that have to receive them. 4 123 Indeed, one of Winnipeg's most 5 popular talkers is a good acquaintance of mine. I 6 commented to him once that when his program was on in 7 our house -- and I never leave a radio running unless I 8 listen to it, I turn them off if I'm not. I like to 9 think. I said "When your program is on I'm not able to 10 think. I can't marshal any thoughts. It's like a 11 mental anaesthetic." His reply was interesting. I had 12 suspected it, but he confirmed it. He looked very 13 pleased and said "That's just what it is supposed to 14 be." I was surprised that he was dumb enough to tell 15 me, but he was. 16 124 I will go on now. I musn't wobble 17 too far. 18 125 How well does the CBC serve the 19 public on a regional as well as a national level? I 20 would say extremely well. But to try to answer that 21 question I have got to have something with which to 22 compare it, and I have never encountered anything to 23 which the CBC is comparable. As far as I'm concerned, 24 it provides the best possible regional and national 25 coverage. StenoTran 26 1 126 I do wish that there was a bit more 2 funding. I wish we hadn't closed those three network 3 outposts, the one in South Africa, because I find it 4 rather pleasant and very interesting to get my news by 5 satellite direct from a Canadian. We don't have to 6 hire Americans to do everything, you know. 7 127 I think that regionally, well, I 8 don't know how they could do it much better without 9 spending a lot more money. On that note, I would 10 suggest, come back to the suggestion, let us please 11 restore the CBC funding. Let us please increase the 12 CBC funding. And if you want more taxes from me, we 13 are not wealthy, but I am perfectly willing to kick in 14 extra money in my taxes to support an enriched, more 15 vibrant CBC. The CBC adds considerably to our quality 16 of life and I am perfectly willing to pay for it, not 17 just willing but anxious. 18 128 Your next question is: 19 "Should the programming provided 20 by the CBC be different from 21 other broadcasters?" (As read) 22 129 Well, it certainly is. It is that 23 way already, so it isn't a question of whether it ought 24 to be. It is. It has some coherent intelligence in 25 it. StenoTran 27 1 130 Think about some of the CBC programs 2 that are presented. Where are you going to find 3 Wayne Ronstad on any other national or private station? 4 I thought so. Nowhere. Nobody is going to do that, 5 yet that's an important thing. I think that we tend to 6 forget that programs like Ronstad's, programs like 7 Hockey Night in Canada, programs of infinite number are 8 an integral part of the glue that holds Canada 9 together. 10 131 We learn about each other. We learn 11 about our ethnicity and we find out that whether you 12 are a united empire loyalist descendant as I am, or 13 whether you have emigrated to this country in the last 14 five or ten years, you are not very different. There 15 are far, far more commonalities than there are 16 differences, and we learn that through the CBC. 17 132 But there is no one else that 18 presumes to even try to do such a thing, and we need 19 this cohesion. We need it. If we don't do something 20 to enhance it, we are going to lose the country because 21 when we lose an awareness, an understanding of each 22 other, and a tolerance and a respect for each other's 23 customs and ways, when we lose that, what will Canada 24 be then? We will be nothing. 25 133 We are heading that way quickly. We StenoTran 28 1 have already turned over most of our economy to the 2 Americans. One would wonder where our legislators get 3 their plans. There are some parties in the House of 4 Commons who sound as if they have been speaking to 5 Gerry Fulwell (ph) in the United States or alternately 6 you did go down to have conferences with 7 Newt Gingrintch (ph). 8 134 We have to do better than that, 9 because such policies will leave us without any 10 country. We will be some sort of satellite 11 second-class citizens attached loosely to the United 12 States. 13 135 We find now in our dispute with 14 magazines that the Americans are prepared to attack us 15 over steel, softwood lumber, cattle, all sorts of 16 things. When are we going to ever stand up to the 17 Americans again and tell them "No. Do what you like 18 and we will too." 19 136 I like Americans fine individually, 20 but their government exasperates me. Our government's 21 unwillingness to demonstrate Canadian sovereignty and 22 Canadian control of Canada is intolerable. One of the 23 vehicles with which we learn of these nefarious goings 24 on is, without doubt, the superlatively good CBC news 25 reporting. Now, I didn't say perfect. It's not, but StenoTran 29 1 it's damn close. 2 137 I would also like to comment on a 3 different topic, package programming. That's a very 4 secondary concern to my wife and I. Our children are 5 grown and gone and we sold our house and moved into the 6 country. We didn't find it necessary for four or five 7 months, until our son came home, to have a television 8 set at all. We found we were getting perfectly good 9 service from CBC radio, but he did want to watch hockey 10 games. He seems to be unable to live without them. 11 138 Also, why is it that of the channels 12 we are able to get, and I live a mile north of the town 13 of Selkirk, the CBC is the poorest reception of all? I 14 can get three other channels perfectly, but the CBC 15 channel is the one that is poor. Why is that? 16 139 And as CRTC people, could I also draw 17 to your attention what I believe has been the law for, 18 oh, I should think 40 or 50 years, and that is that it 19 has been illegal I believe to increase the transmission 20 power of the transmitters during commercials. Well, 21 why don't you enforce that law? You have the rules, I 22 believe. Why is it that when I'm watching radio or 23 television, I can be watching a program perfectly 24 pleasant, perfectly agreeable, and boy suddenly there 25 is a commercial break and it comes booming out and StenoTran 30 1 knocks my head off? I have to look around for the 2 remote control as my wife sometimes swipes it, and turn 3 it down, and then I have to turn it up. Worst yet, 4 ours is an old television and I often have to bang it 5 hard on the arm of the chair to make it work, and I 6 shouldn't have to do this. 7 140 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Benson, could 8 you sort of -- 9 141 MR. BENSON: I will draw to an end, 10 then, difficult as it may be. 11 142 THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand your 12 concerns. 13 143 MR. BENSON: You see, I'm a retired 14 teacher, and once I have begun, it's difficult to stop. 15 144 THE CHAIRPERSON: We need to bring in 16 a school bell. Is that what -- 17 145 MR. BENSON: Well, that would 18 probably work, but I'm afraid you will have to have an 19 electric buzzer. We have conditioned the children 20 differently. 21 146 I just made a few notes. I would 22 also like to point out the uniqueness of the programs 23 and the people that we find and that we have found on 24 radio and TV for all these years. Last night I though 25 I made a bit of a note of them and somewhere it will StenoTran 31 1 be. I will find it here. 2 147 But I would like to ask you a 3 question. What plans have you got to regulate computer 4 animation that allows technicians to make dead human 5 beings or live ones walk, talk and move as if they are 6 perfectly normally alive? And if this is not a 7 problem, you tell me how we can ever believe anything 8 we see or hear over TV? 9 148 I would comment again, all of us saw 10 the American moon landing, and we saw the man climb out 11 of the spaceship and onto the moon, didn't we? We 12 heard him speak, didn't we? Are you sure? 13 149 I have seen a damn sight more skilful 14 and complex special effects in movies than that. Now, 15 I'm not throwing doubt on that. I believe it happened. 16 But if we are going to have manipulation of that sort, 17 well, what are we going to do to control it? We can 18 have Mr. Chrétien say anything that anybody wants him 19 to say, and there are a miscellany of people who would 20 like him to say numerous things. 21 150 Well, I'll stop with that. But I 22 would like to say just the names of a few programs, and 23 I seem to be losing them. No, no, I have them. Here 24 they are. 25 151 Where else but on the CBC are you StenoTran 32 1 going to find individualists, colourful, articulate, 2 intelligent individuals like Rex Murphy? Where do you 3 find anyone like the deceased J. Frank Willis (ph), 4 there may be some of you old enough to remember him, I 5 certainly do; and our own Bill Guest (ph) here in 6 Winnipeg, a fine man at the mike; Stanley Burke (ph); 7 Earl Cameron; Max Ferguson; Alan McFee (ph)? Where are 8 you going to get people like that if you don't get them 9 on the CBC? Do we want to do without them? I sure 10 don't. I want them. I want them on my radio. I want 11 them on my television because they are the spice that 12 makes us live and living worthwhile. 13 152 In conclusion, and honestly I will 14 stop this time, remember that the CBC is an integral 15 part of our culture. We have so much difficulty in 16 defining ourselves as Canadians. But, you know, a 17 definition of a Canadian isn't always the same in all 18 parts of Canada. The people in Newfoundland seem to 19 have very colourful and entertainingly different 20 cultural edges than we do and we find them delightful 21 to listen to. Where do you find politics like you find 22 them in British Columbia, where they have a premier 23 that they want to resign even though he has done 24 nothing wrong, et cetera, et cetera, no charges, no 25 fault or anything? StenoTran 33 1 153 Now, we have to rely on honest, 2 national networking to tell us about each other so we 3 can learn what we are like and learn to accept and be 4 glad of each other. The most potent force for that is 5 what Peter Gzowski used to refer to as the ministry of 6 truth. 7 154 With that I will stop. Thank you 8 very much. 9 155 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 10 Mr. Benson. 11 156 MS PINSKY: Bill Harrison is the next 12 presenter. 13 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 14 157 MR. HARRISON: I'm happy to be here 15 because this seems to be Canada at work. I want to 16 thank the CRTC for giving us this opportunity. This is 17 our free country and let's just keep it that way, and I 18 think the CBC has a role in doing it. 19 158 Anyway, good day. My name is 20 Bill Harrison. I live in rural Manitoba, about 21 80 miles southwest of Winnipeg. 22 159 I and many of my neighbours and 23 friends listen to CBC Radio One and Two around the 24 clock. We view the CBC as Canada's community network, 25 our national neighbourhood connector. We depend on the StenoTran 34 1 CBC for news, information, entertainment, cultural 2 reporting and participatory talk shows, a Canadian 3 dialogue. It is reassuring to hear from fellow 4 citizens across the country and even American 5 neighbours calling in to voice their opinions on topics 6 we are concerned about collectively. 7 160 So already we have a local, national 8 and even an international sharing just from CBC radio. 9 161 My television experience, however, is 10 quite limited, but I do feel it is very important to 11 maintain a national public TV broadcaster as well. 12 162 CBC media must be given a stronger 13 and a broader mandate to serve our national public 14 interest. We must stop a commercial media monopoly 15 from moulding us into simple-minded consumers. We need 16 the CBC to be Canada's watchdog, providing a public 17 forum for us to constantly re-examine ourselves and the 18 world around us. 19 163 Knowledge is power, it was said 20 before, and the power must belong to the people. In 21 order to ensure this is done creatively, effectively 22 and responsibly, it must be given more funding. The 23 crippling cuts done by the last two federal governments 24 must be stopped now. The CRTC must remember the 25 airways are as free as the air we breathe. StenoTran 35 1 164 Foreign bureaus, such as the one in 2 Mexico City, should be re-established and in fact more 3 bureaus opened worldwide. If we want to prevent a 4 Kosovo-type situation in Canada or elsewhere, we need a 5 strong public broadcaster at arm's length from the 6 government. A healthy CBC can help foster our sense of 7 Canadian identity and unity, a securely funded CBC can 8 inform, educate and even entertain its listeners and 9 viewers. 10 165 The wishes of self-serving right-wing 11 politicians in this country who want the CBC abolished 12 must be resisted. The freedom we have and cherish to 13 speak freely in this country is the freedom we take, 14 the freedom we must guarantee ourselves to a strong 15 public national voice, a strong public media, a strong 16 CBC. 17 166 That's as much as I have to say. 18 167 Thanks very much. 19 --- Applause / Applaudissement 20 168 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 21 Mr. Harrison. 22 169 MS PINSKY: Carl Ridd is the next 23 presenter. 24 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 25 170 MR. RIDD: My name is Carl Ridd. I StenoTran 36 1 am a retired professor of religious studies from the 2 University of Winnipeg. My favourite self-description 3 for myself and all of us is "citizen". 4 171 Before I say my own remarks, I would 5 like to say how much I concur with most of what I have 6 heard before, beginning with Ann Pedersen particularly 7 and following on through. I'm very relieved that so 8 much ground has been covered by them so that I don't 9 have to say any of that, and can instead go on to the 10 things I particularly want to say and that I maybe 11 haven't heard from them or others yet. 12 172 First, I would like to answer your 13 questions very swiftly. 14 173 In my view, how well does the CBC 15 fulfil its role as the national public broadcaster? 16 Increasingly poorly. I will come back to that. 17 174 In the new millennium -- and I, too, 18 noted what Roy Benson had, the new millennium, the 19 thousand years idea. It seemed to me that that phrase 20 therefore was a glib and catchy phrase and typical of 21 the sort of thing I don't want to get from any of my 22 broadcasters. We are all into this "in the new 23 millennium", this sort of vague, catchy phrase that 24 prevents thought. 25 175 Should it fulfil its role in a StenoTran 37 1 different manner than it has in the past? No, though 2 it will evolve I hope over time, as one of the earlier 3 speakers said. 4 176 How well does the CBC serve the 5 public on a regional as well as a national level? 6 Well, reasonably well. Better than practically anyone 7 else, obviously. But it does so by cutting services 8 rather than regions. 9 177 Yes, you have kept your regions 10 because politically that would be very unpopular 11 with -- I shouldn't speak to you people as though you 12 had done this. The CBC, though, had made the decision 13 to cut services, and I will come back to that, rather 14 than regions because it would be perceived as being not 15 in the best preference of the government, its funder. 16 178 I think that's why the strikes are on 17 right now. I mean, I'm not close to anyone in these 18 strikes, but I take it that one of the things that is 19 happening is that services are being cut and therefore 20 the quality of the CBC -- which is exceptional, I want 21 to say again and again, in the beginning, but is less 22 and less so -- that's where we citizens are paying the 23 price of keeping the regions, as I see it, from my 24 distance. 25 179 Should the programming provided by StenoTran 38 1 CBC radio and television be different from that 2 provided by other broadcasters? Yes, emphatically. If 3 so, what should these differences be? Well, very 4 briefly, I want Canadian content and above all a 5 Canadian view of reality. I want to see the world from 6 what I hope to be, wish to be, the Canadian 7 perspective. I think many of us could define that and 8 probably in different ways, but I don't want some 9 homogenized view. I want that which is Canada at its 10 best. That the CBC has, for me, in all the years of my 11 attention to it and listening to it, done better than 12 anything else. 13 180 I want secondly what I will call 14 investigative journalism and critical journalism. I 15 don't mean critical in the sense of carping and 16 complaining. I mean critical in the sense of asking 17 the sorts of questions that the purveyors of 18 information or facts or deeds don't necessarily want to 19 have asked. How often have we in this room sat there 20 hearing somebody put out a viewpoint and wishing that 21 the interviewer would ask them whatever it is. You get 22 that from the CBC a way more than you get it from 23 anyone else, and I want that. I have to have that. 24 Our country has to have it. 25 181 And I want it relatively free of StenoTran 39 1 advertising. I'm not one of these purists who has to 2 have it completely so, but I don't want the government 3 to get away with its funding cuts because all of a 4 sudden the CBC is turning into that which is beholden 5 to those who advertise in it. 6 182 I think I have, in those remarks, 7 answered the final question you specifically asked: 8 "Is there a special role the CBC 9 should play in the presentation 10 of Canadian programming? If so, 11 what is this role?" (As read) 12 183 Those are my quick answers to your 13 questions. 14 184 I would like to spend the rest of my 15 time, which will be pretty brief I think, five minutes 16 or so, if you will give me that, to make my own 17 comments from my own point of view as a Canadian 18 citizen and comment, I intend to, on the process I 19 believe to be happening. It may not be, but this is 20 what I perceive. 21 185 I perceive, then, first off the 22 serious dilution and weakening of the CBC, both radio 23 and television since about 1985. 24 186 There is more popular features, for 25 example, in the news programs, the sort of thing I say StenoTran 40 1 disgustedly to my dear partner in life as we sit 2 listening or watching "Another one of these 3 man-bites-dog stories." Features that can be prepared 4 in advance. 5 187 Now, look there is nothing wrong with 6 that under some conditions. But in the news programs I 7 look for news, not the kinds of features that could 8 come up any time but are a nice filler and sort of 9 serve a pop or entertainment function in that newscast. 10 And I hate the glib and cheery little supposedly funny 11 anecdote that some of the newscasts end with. 12 188 Now, look, the CBC is not the only 13 one guilty of that sort of thing either. But the 14 transition or partial transition into entertainment 15 rather than news in what ought to be the news part of 16 the CBC I deplore. 17 189 I see also a very serious diminution 18 in the research capacity of the CBC. Whenever it 19 touches something that I know something about, for 20 example, nuclear issues or ecological issues or 21 economic issues or APEC, I often find that the 22 interviewer on the CBC doesn't know very much about 23 this and therefore can't ask the questions that I'm 24 wanting to hear asked, because we have this person 25 right here and a chance to ask them, and they don't StenoTran 41 1 know enough to ask the right questions. 2 190 Yes, I phone in and say, you know, 3 "Why didn't this or that get asked?" Well, you know, 4 "Make your point further up", and I do. But the chance 5 has been missed for all those other listeners who 6 didn't know what questions to ask. I'm sure there are 7 many people sitting out there wanting to ask questions 8 that I don't know how to ask and never even thought of. 9 But the research -- the background stuff that the 10 interviewer has got seems to me significantly and 11 visibly weaker than it once was. There aren't as many 12 people employed to do that kind of rich preparation to 13 help the interview be that which educates us. 14 191 The second point I would like to 15 make, I take it that there has been a -- I have come 16 here to use plain words and I come here with great 17 respect and hope in the CRTC. I will come back to 18 that, too, as I end -- but I take there to have been 19 and to be right now an attack on the CBC by 20 governments. 21 192 There has been I believe an attempt 22 to tame the CBC. It began with the Mulroney 23 government. I can't go back into that, but I think we 24 all remember how much the Mulroney people hated the 25 CBC. I think the Chrétien government hates them StenoTran 42 1 equally. Maybe all governments would hate any critical 2 and investigative kind of journalism. I think if I 3 were in government I wouldn't much like them in many 4 respects and I would be anxious to have them tamed, 5 maybe not absolutely if I retained any of my citizen 6 faculties. I say this with some respect for our 7 governors, some respect, but pleading with you people 8 that that not become that which limits and governs this 9 precious medium. 10 193 So there have been these funding 11 cuts. It's an excellent way of taming, because you 12 don't have the research capacity and blah, blah, blah, 13 blah. Therefore, you function more by press releases 14 and handouts by the opinions of the opinion moulders of 15 society, and so on and so forth, and everything goes 16 along more smoothly. The boat is not as much rocked. 17 I take it that CBC, among others, and the Prime 18 Minister's office as well, is busy persecuting 19 Terry Milewski as a way of showing that it's really not 20 that bad and that it's sort of with the government in 21 this. 22 194 Now, look, I don't think there has 23 been any collusion between the government and the CBC 24 brass over this but, you know, I can't go into the 25 detail of that whole story, which I know pretty well, StenoTran 43 1 not from within the CBC but from a number of other 2 sources, and that's what I take to illustrate. The 3 government wants, then, mainstream and what government 4 wouldn't. 5 195 I think we are in huge danger in this 6 world and in Canada increasingly, and rapidly 7 increasingly, of what John Ralston Saul called 8 corporatism. The kind of monolithic control of the 9 mind. Some of the people don't know how to think 10 otherwise. 11 196 If I was a controller, I would want 12 control. But I'm not, and I think democracy is that 13 which is willing -- that the public, that the citizens, 14 that the whole of the community should have its strong 15 role and voice and reality. I am afraid that Canada is 16 becoming a corporation less than a country, and the CBC 17 is one huge, has been, one huge roadblock to that. It 18 still is. I want again and again to say how grateful I 19 am for what is left. 20 197 Whenever I do phone the CBC about 21 something or other to inquire of or often to complain 22 "Why wasn't this angle brought out", in those 23 relatively few areas where I know something, I always 24 hit, I always hit infallibly intelligent and helpful 25 and co-operative people. I am just amazed at the StenoTran 44 1 talent that's still there. Why haven't they bled off 2 to higher salaries somewhere else? So it is great 3 stuff, but it's definitely getting weaker, in my view. 4 198 Third point, I think we see here a 5 method. Again, I'm not sure how explicit this method 6 has been made to the controllers, but the method is you 7 cut and then the quality of that which is cut has less 8 value so there is going to be less energy to try and 9 defend it because it is diminishing in value anyway. 10 199 When I first heard you people were 11 coming I thought "I'm not going to be bothered." I 12 couldn't live with that. Finally, that's why I'm here, 13 because the thing had sunk down so much it was hard -- 14 I used to belong -- I belonged in the beginning to the 15 friends of CBC, the Ian Morrison thing. I haven't sent 16 them any money or done a darn thing in that for, I 17 don't know, three or four or five years, anywhere from 18 the first year on, because it didn't seem worth it. 19 The thing was going to get ripped up anyway and I had 20 other battles to fight and I was fighting them and I 21 wasn't going to fight this one, but here I am saying a 22 small word. 23 200 I think therefore that there is less 24 energy to defend it out there and this is exactly what 25 is wanted. Since it's not serving very well and people StenoTran 45 1 don't care as much about it, well, you can cut it some 2 more. You see the process. It's a brilliant method. 3 It's a brilliant method, and I think it is pretty 4 deliberate. 5 201 The final thing I have to say is 6 really a question -- and I don't know whether you are 7 wanting to answer this, you Commissioners. I, again, 8 respect your presence. I'm grateful you exist. I 9 won't go on about it. I mean, you and the CBC are 10 defending the things that are of value in life as I 11 experience it. But I wonder whether you are able to 12 tell me and this room what role you have. 13 202 I mean, you will go back and I 14 presume report the sorts of things you hear including 15 these pleas that funding cuts be restored, which is my 16 plea as well, but do you have the right to -- the 17 government is not exactly your master. You are an 18 arm's-length body, I realize, but do you have the right 19 to take on the role of advocate? 20 203 Are you able to answer that question 21 or is that something about which you should be 22 discretely silent? 23 204 THE CHAIRPERSON: I prefer 24 discretion. 25 205 MR. RIDD: Okay. Thank you. I StenoTran 46 1 thought probably you would, so I will leave it as a 2 rhetorical question, you know, and end therewith. 3 206 THE CHAIRPERSON: Maybe I will ask 4 Ms Pinsky, the lawyer, to sort of define our role a 5 little for you. 6 207 Thank you, though, Mr. Ridd. 7 208 I will ask Carolyn. 8 209 MS PINSKY: I think as 9 Commissioner Cram mentioned in her opening remarks, we 10 will be conducting proceedings into the licence 11 renewals of the CBC. In that capacity, the Commission 12 is not an advocate. The Commission sits as a 13 regulatory body to determine the conditions that should 14 be imposed on the licence of the CBC. The licences 15 that we are looking at are the TV networks, the radio 16 networks and Newsworld and RDI, and maybe some of the 17 regional television stations as well. So it is more of 18 a regulatory body capacity. 19 210 MR. RIDD: Just a follow-up question, 20 then. What about all the stuff you have heard for the 21 last 40 minutes or so? I mean, how will that get 22 reported to -- well, to whom will it get reported? 23 Does it get reported to the CBC? Does it get reported 24 to the government; and, if so, how? 25 211 MS PINSKY: The purpose of these StenoTran 47 1 microphones are to transcribe the proceedings. The 2 transcriptions of the proceedings will form part of the 3 record of the hearing where we will be looking at the 4 renewal of the licence terms. So the input from the 5 public will inform the private Crown as a Commission, 6 one of the decision makers, in terms of the terms and 7 conditions and the scope of the licence that should be 8 accorded for the renewal term. 9 212 So in terms of -- this doesn't go to 10 the government because it is the CRTC, as you noted, as 11 an independent body and it will make its own decisions, 12 so it forms part of a public record upon which the 13 Commission then makes decisions. 14 213 MR. RIDD: Does the government have 15 access to this if they should seek it? 16 214 MS PINSKY: It's a public record, 17 yes. As well, of course, the CBC is here represented 18 and they will have an opportunity to reply at the end 19 of the session if they wish, so of course they as well 20 have a full opportunity to review the record as well. 21 215 MR. RIDD: A final question. Will 22 some official person or persons -- not person so much 23 as institutional representative be telling members of 24 the government -- I forget who the minister is 25 responsible for the CBC, but -- StenoTran 48 1 --- Off microphone / Sans microphone 2 216 MR. RIDD: It may be. But anyway, 3 will some officer be telling the requisite minister, 4 the relevant minister, that this material which you are 5 gathering from Canadians all across the country is 6 something that she or he ought to hear? 7 217 I mean, we can write and say that, 8 but it would have less authority I think than if you 9 Commissioners or someone could make that point. 10 218 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Ridd, this is a 11 public forum and that's -- I mean, the whole idea is 12 that not only you tell us, but that your views are 13 publicly known, that we have the transcript, because 14 that forms part of the record of what we have heard and 15 what we consider in our decision. But it's also public 16 for the reason that we at least have the greatest 17 exchange of ideas that are possible. 18 219 I would be very surprised if the 19 public record were not at least referred to in any 20 final decision, and were not referred to or seen by, 21 say, the media and inevitably the government of the 22 day. 23 220 MR. HARRISON: Excuse me. If we are 24 asking you or presenting here that many of us seem to 25 be suggesting that the CBC needs to have their funding StenoTran 49 1 increased, if we are presenting that to you, is that 2 something that you will be involved in? Do you have 3 any say in that or do you have any way of presenting 4 that to the government or to the people who do decide? 5 221 I mean, are we just blowing air here 6 or what? I mean, maybe we shouldn't be here if we are 7 asking for the CBC to be given more stable funding, you 8 know. Money is essential to keep the thing afloat. I 9 mean, it's a public broadcaster. It doesn't get its 10 funding from commercial enterprises, at least the radio 11 doesn't. 12 222 So I'm just wondering, are you the 13 people we should be talking to? 14 223 THE CHAIRPERSON: We cannot tell 15 government and would not even purport to tell 16 government anything. Our purpose is to find out if CBC 17 is following its mandate, if its fulfilling its 18 statutory mandate. If it is not we will say that, or 19 if it is we will say it is. That is the issue. 20 224 But I would expect that in any 21 long-term decision by anybody the issue of funding 22 would be raised in these proceedings all along, because 23 that is what we have been hearing and I expect will be 24 hearing. I don't think there is anything we can do to 25 ensure an increase in funding. StenoTran 50 1 225 MR. HARRISON: Yes. But you, as the 2 CRTC, you recommend or you dictate to the media on what 3 they can do on air, correct? I mean, you set the 4 guidelines, do you not? I mean, there must be some 5 guidelines. We often hear the CRTC involved in making 6 these comments in the media itself when, say, 7 private -- I mean, who do we speak to? I thought we 8 spoke to you when we are concerned if the media was 9 becoming too violent, say, television or whatever, we 10 thought there should be more children's programming. 11 226 So, in a same sense, obviously, 12 economics drives a lot of this. That's what I mean. 13 Is the CRTC able to at least, if they are making 14 recommendations, let's say, the CBC, if they are not 15 doing what you consider is not their mandate, then -- 16 or if they can't do their mandate because of funding, 17 can you say to the government or to yourselves, whoever 18 is going to grant this licence, "Well, gee, you need 19 this licence and you also need financing to do the job 20 that you are supposed to do"? 21 --- Off microphone / Sans microphone 22 227 MR. HARRISON: Someone has to say -- 23 you know, I mean, you can't just do something without 24 money. If they are cutting back and the CBC can't, you 25 know, perform their mandate because they are being cut, StenoTran 51 1 their funding is cut, they can't do the same quality of 2 shows or the same shows or the shows at all that they 3 are doing, the programming they are supposed to be 4 doing -- I mean, I think that's why so many of us are 5 here. We are concerned that the CBC is being watered 6 down and, you know, we enjoy it. We see it as a public 7 media, a public voice, more than commercial radio. You 8 know, they are interested in profit. The CBC isn't 9 interested in profit, it has a mandate to inform and 10 provide a cultural forum for Canadians. 11 228 I mean, we are here and we say we 12 want more funding. So I would hope you could -- you 13 know, when you are making your recommendations to the 14 CBC, well, if they don't die while we are sitting here 15 talking about it, you know, I would hope that you would 16 make a recommendation that money, funding be restored, 17 at least to their formal levels before the Mulroney 18 government or actually -- I mean, with inflation now it 19 should be even greater. 20 229 I'm saying, as a Canadian, I want 21 more media, public media. The airwaves belong to us, 22 not to a private corporation. You only grant them a 23 licence, but you still work for me and for these people 24 here, and that's the way I see it. I would hope you 25 could help us. StenoTran 52 1 230 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think I have said 2 pretty well all I can say. Thank you very much. We do 3 hear you. 4 231 MR. BENSON: Could I ask a short 5 question? 6 232 I'm not sure I understood. Are you 7 or are you not able to make a recommendation to 8 government that CBC funding ought to be increased to 9 meet its mandate? 10 233 THE CHAIRPERSON: Our job is to renew 11 the licences of CBC. We don't report to government. 12 We renew licences. So the question: Is CBC meeting 13 its mandate? If it is not meeting its mandate, what 14 can be done to make it better? Those are the issues 15 that -- you have seen the four questions. 16 234 MR. BENSON: Yes. 17 235 THE CHAIRPERSON: Those are the 18 issues that we can address. 19 236 MR. BENSON: Well, I must say in that 20 case that I think I agree with Mr. Ridd's first 21 intention that it's a waste of time to come here 22 because there is no problem with the CBC's mandate that 23 funding won't fix. If funding is restored to the CBC, 24 they will meet and exceed their mandate as they have 25 always done. If it isn't restored and if it is StenoTran 53 1 diminished, they will not, and it will not matter what 2 meetings like this say. 3 237 MR. RIDD: Might I just add to that, 4 and I won't make a big speech, and I know you need to 5 get on so I'm sensitive to that. 6 238 But would there not be a way of you 7 adding to whatever recommendation you make about 8 licensing, and so on, some kind of footnote that may be 9 to the effect of what in the last 10 minutes several of 10 us have tried to say about the funding, that this you 11 heard repeatedly and that it is relevant, therefore, to 12 the mandate and to what you are legitimately to rule 13 upon? 14 239 I'm not asking that it be front and 15 centre. I'm just saying, you know, in some fashion 16 getting the whole picture through, because otherwise we 17 die by having only a little technical corner of the 18 picture. 19 240 MS PINSKY: That request is now on 20 the public record and will be part of the record. 21 241 I would just note that in terms of 22 the licence renewal, that hearing will be held in May. 23 The proceeding for the licences hasn't yet begun, so 24 actually we are not sort of talking about the specific 25 licences right now. StenoTran 54 1 242 We are talking about the general 2 mandate. Certainly, all of the comments that have been 3 presented have related to the types of programming, as 4 I have heard it, that the presenters here and members 5 of the public wish to -- that they rely on the CBC for 6 and it is the programming that the CBC presents that 7 the Commission will be looking at in the context of its 8 licence renewal. 9 243 MS WADEPOOL: Excuse me. I'm sorry. 10 244 MS PINSKY: Yes? 11 245 MS WADEPOOL: It seems to me that I 12 heard our Chairperson say that this will probably be 13 presented to the government of the day. Didn't you say 14 something to that effect. 15 246 MS PINSKY: No. The record of this 16 proceeding will ultimately form part of the record of 17 the Commission for the purpose of the CBC's licence 18 renewal hearing. The CBC will be applying for the 19 renewal of their licences and the CRTC Commissioners 20 will be examining those applications and will hold the 21 public hearing on those specific applications, and 22 that's the purpose of this public record. 23 247 MS WADEPOOL: But will our government 24 receive copies of this so that they will know what the 25 people want? StenoTran 55 1 248 MS PINSKY: As we have noted, it's a 2 matter of public record and I can't speak for 3 government officials at the department. 4 249 MS WADEPOOL: It's their option to 5 look at it, then. Okay. Thank you. 6 250 MS PINSKY: Perhaps I will call on 7 the next presenter, just to ensure that everybody does 8 have an opportunity to make their presentation. 9 251 The next presenter is Trish Masniuk. 10 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 11 252 MS MASNIUK: Hello. I'm 12 Trish Masniuk, and I want to thank both the CRTC and 13 the CBC for the amount of time, energy and resources 14 that they are devoting to this, which I consider a 15 really vital question. 16 253 Now, it's rare for me to speak out in 17 a national forum like this. I do speak out quite a bit 18 on local issues, but I'm not a presentation groupie. 19 It's my first time speaking before a CRTC hearing. The 20 last time I remember feeling quite this passionate 21 about it, and I'm speaking here because I feel very 22 passionate about the issue of the CBC, was back when I 23 was in college and the B&B Commission was coming 24 through which, since that predates the Beatlemania and 25 Trudeaumania, gives you a bit of an idea of the StenoTran 56 1 strength with which I feel what is going on, because I 2 feel, with this, with the issue of CBC now, as with our 3 need to bridge our solitudes back in the sixties, we 4 are at a crossroads. 5 254 It is absolutely vital that we 6 realize just how serious this question about the CBC is 7 and the fact that you, as the CRTC, hold in your hands 8 the power of dismantling the webwork, the network from 9 high and low and across the country that really holds 10 us together. 11 255 CBC has woven through the fabric of 12 our country and it has also woven through the fabric of 13 my life. I am a CBC addict, self-admitted, 14 particularly radio, but CBC radio and television. As a 15 young child growing up in Manitoba's Interlake we 16 didn't have electricity yet but we did have a 17 battery-powered set. We would bring the car battery in 18 and hook it up and listen to it. 19 256 Eventually we did have electricity 20 and there was a television that one of the families had 21 and all the other families went over to watch. I have 22 to admit that when listening to Twilight Zone on that 23 flickering set or watching it, or listening to a radio 24 drama with the howling of the coyotes set a certain 25 standard for what I have looked for in terms of really StenoTran 57 1 all-absorbing drama. 2 257 But CBC has brought a lot more than 3 that to me. It has brought the voices of my community 4 and the communities from around the world to me. 5 258 When I moved out to the West Coast 6 and then to Montreal, it kept me in touch with familiar 7 voices because of the national character of the 8 broadcasting. As a grad student in the U.S. I looked 9 forward to As It Happens to try to keep me anchored and 10 clued in to what was really happening, the kinds of 11 things that even with public television and public 12 radio down there we didn't get. 13 259 I'm not sure how fully people who 14 have not lived outside Canada really realize just how 15 precious this resource that we take for granted is, 16 this voice that we take for granted. 17 260 Right now as a person who lives in 18 the heart of the west end and is very much involved in 19 community development, I realize what a vital role the 20 local programming has played. 21 261 I have also had a once-in-a-lifetime 22 experience. I live in the Buen (ph) Peterson house, 23 the one with the icelandic murals that has emerged to 24 the attention of Winnipeg and the country, largely 25 through a local broadcaster here in Winnipeg, Meagan StenoTran 58 1 Ketchison (ph), the local CBC traffic commentator. Her 2 interview at eight o'clock in the morning led to this 3 once-in-a-lifetime experience. Within 24 hours of 4 being in colour on the front page of both major 5 newspapers -- and unlike Lady Di or Mother Theresa, I 6 didn't have to be dead yet or commit a major crime or 7 anything, but it also helped me realize what the power 8 of it was because, within hours, as well as the 9 newspapers there was Reuters (ph) knocking on my door; 10 Mary-Lou Finlay from As It Happens was spreading the 11 word across the country. 12 262 What that has done, both to my 13 research on that history but also to the perception of 14 the strength of our past in the west end and therefore 15 the power of our future, a neighbourhood that was 16 really under siege is extremely powerful -- I don't 17 know any other webwork of radio and television that 18 reaches from that grassroots to the national and 19 international level that could have captured things 20 like that and catapulted it from the local onto the 21 national and international scene. 22 263 Now, from time to time I replay that 23 Mary-Lou Finlay tape in which she starts out saying 24 "Well, this is an ordinary house in an ordinary 25 neighbourhood" and I keep on saying to myself "Well, StenoTran 59 1 Mary-Lou, not so ordinary house, not so ordinary 2 neighbourhood." And that's true with CBC, too, it's 3 not so ordinary a network. It's not like the other 4 networks you are dealing with, the commercial networks. 5 This has a greater responsibility, a much greater 6 power. 7 264 Now, what makes CBC different? Part 8 of it is what you stated before at the beginning of our 9 discussion here: its mandate of public service. It's 10 also its English, French and other voices of diversity. 11 It's the fact that it's in radio, television, Internet 12 and so many different forums. 13 265 Also, that it not only broadcasts our 14 voice internationally but brings international voices 15 to us. Being a person who is often up with the Late 16 Night Radio, I get a chance to hear all these many 17 voices from around the world on the overnight Radio One 18 programs. 19 266 It weaves us together. It's 20 something when I get together with good friends from 21 other parts of the country. We have a common cultural 22 context in a way that we would not have other than CBC, 23 and it's really delightful to see my thirtyish son 24 having become a CBC addict as well. 25 267 There are disappointments that I have StenoTran 60 1 with the funding cutbacks. There is no question of 2 that. But I see some real positives and one of them 3 was the renewed commitment of CBC to regional and local 4 programming by building a new and expanded building 5 here in the heart of the country and in the heart of 6 the inner city. 7 268 It is important, I think, for CRTC to 8 support and to strengthen that regional reach 9 throughout the country, because the number of licences 10 you choose to renew and where you renew them are really 11 vital in keeping that webwork alive. It is not a bunch 12 of isolated stations. It is a vital living creature, a 13 living body. 14 269 The way I see the cutbacks which have 15 happened, yes, they have been hurting our programming 16 to a large extent, and I do hope that when you are 17 trying to evaluate whether its living up to its 18 mandate, you will, as the other presenters have asked 19 you, please look at how much has been in their control 20 and how much of it has been imposed on them by these 21 funding cuts. 22 270 But you, as the CRTC, do have the 23 really essential power in terms of a licensing renewal 24 to maintain this high-to-low and this across-the-nation 25 structure. The CBC has the responsibility of StenoTran 61 1 allocating the resources its given responsibly to keep 2 this alive and to keep this balance and diversity 3 going. There is no question that the losses of funding 4 cutbacks, where we have a lost a whole number of the 5 familiar and valued voices and the current labour 6 dispute which is putting us in a very much of a 7 withdrawal situation with respect to some of our 8 favourite programs but is maybe making us realize just 9 how important those programs are, is giving us an 10 opportunity to review and value what we have. 11 271 But the important thing I think is to 12 recognize this network as a network, not just a 13 collection of stations. 14 272 In closing, I would like to remind 15 all of us that it is our network. At this local level 16 it is a local voice, it is an important element of our 17 national identity, it is an important element of our 18 international reputation, our reputation for fairness, 19 for diversity, of what makes us different from the U.S. 20 273 As the CRTC and the CBC both try to 21 guide this network into the new millennium, I think it 22 is going to have to come out of a shared vision. Now, 23 it is a tripod. The funding does come from the 24 government, which is from somewhere else, but there is 25 an important element which CRTC has to play in terms of StenoTran 62 1 defending the value of that to the country, to us as a 2 country. 3 274 Through the funding, there is also 4 the responsibility of providing fairness and balance of 5 a full spectrum voice, and that is a voice through 6 technology including looking at the new technologies 7 and the Internet. I don't know quite how they are 8 going to be regulated. 9 275 I think, though, within all that, we 10 have to keep in mind that it is not possible to solve 11 funding problems by being unfair to individual workers, 12 whether that's younger workers who because they aren't 13 getting fair wages have to go off somewhere else, or 14 older workers who are given the golden handshake long 15 before they are ready to silence their voices and long 16 before we are ready to give up listening to the value 17 that their voices give to us. It can't be done at the 18 cost of individual -- I mean, of regional needs, but 19 that also is a place where you, as the CRTC, have a 20 role in terms of the licences you grant. It is also 21 important that the special sector voices be retained, 22 and that's one of the things that is most put at hazard 23 when there are funding cuts or when there are numbers 24 of outlet cuts. 25 276 So somehow what we have to learn is StenoTran 63 1 to find a way of adapting without cutting our 2 hamstrings, without severing vital nerves, without 3 chopping off limbs, and again that's where CRTC comes 4 in, or cutting out the heart of the CBC. 5 277 One area that especially concerns me 6 with respect to that is the reporting relationship of 7 the head of the CBC, and I'm not sure if that's within 8 the purview of the CRTC. But if the leadership 9 position within the CBC becomes something that is at 10 the whim of the government of the day rather than at 11 the service of the needs of the people of Canada, 12 something absolutely critical will have been damaged in 13 CBC. The silence that will come from the fear of what 14 might happen to a career by allowing the diversity of 15 programming will hurt us at one fell swoop, far greater 16 than even the funding cuts, and we know how damaging 17 those have been. 18 278 There has to be an independence, and 19 I do believe and hope that the CRTC would have a strong 20 voice within -- really clarifying how vital that is to 21 the ability to fulfil the mandate and who exactly the 22 CBC is responsible to. 23 279 There was talk earlier about the 24 taming of the CBC. I consider trying to put that as 25 a -- to politicize that appointment to be dismissable StenoTran 64 1 at whim as being intimidation not just taming. 2 280 As a final note, one of the earlier 3 commentators commented that the CBC might be the glue 4 that holds our country together. I see it as far more 5 than that. It is in fact like a seed catalogue, like a 6 nursery that provides a warm and a nurturing climate 7 for voices new and old and that scatters seeds through 8 cross-fertilization of a hybrid that goes far beyond 9 what we would ever imagine and that go far beyond the 10 borders of the CBC itself. 11 281 If we lose that heritage seed 12 treasury, we have really lost a very, very great deal 13 as a nation and maybe we have lost so much that our 14 very survival may be put in jeopardy. It's the seeds 15 for our future. 16 282 Thank you. 17 283 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 18 Ms Masniuk. 19 284 I am proposing that we would take a 20 short break, 10 to 15 minutes. The other room is out 21 on break and you can probably hear them. Then we would 22 resume at a quarter to 3:00. 23 --- Short recess at 1437 / Courte suspension à 1437 24 --- Upon resuming at 1451 / Reprise à 1451 25 285 THE CHAIRPERSON: If we could StenoTran 65 1 reconvene. 2 286 We will be calling more people to 3 come and sit at the table. Those of you who have 4 provided your presentation, you may be more comfortable 5 now sitting in the other seating because we will be 6 having another group of people around the table. 7 287 Ms Pinsky will call those 8 individuals. 9 288 MS PINSKY: In addition, to the three 10 remaining presenters from prior to the break, I will 11 ask Mary Hewitt-Smith please to come up; Jesse Vorst; 12 David Northcott; Cheryl Ashton; Gordon Toombs. 13 289 MR. TOOMBS: You called me before. 14 290 MS PINSKY: Yes. I'm sorry. You are 15 here. 16 291 And Carol Vivier, please. 17 --- Short pause / Courte pause 18 292 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just find yourself 19 a seat beside a microphone. 20 293 MS PINSKY: To accommodate schedules, 21 we will ask Mr. Jesse Vorst please to be the first 22 presenter this afternoon. 23 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 24 294 MR. VORST: Thank you very much. 25 295 I appreciate that I'm given this StenoTran 66 1 privilege not just of speaking here but also in moving 2 up in the ranking. I have to be back at work in about 3 45 minutes and it's a long day starting at 7:30 this 4 morning and we will finish by about 9:30, 10:00 5 tonight. 6 296 I very much commend the CRTC for this 7 exercise in consulted democracy. I think it's a great 8 event and I want to use the opportunity, by the way, to 9 congratulate the CRTC decision to award a licence to 10 our aboriginal community. I think it is a landmark in 11 Canadian broadcasting. 12 297 Unfortunately, I have been unable to 13 write something. Time is short and I will just make 14 some comments. Later on I will quote from something 15 which I wrote at an earlier time. 16 298 Let me explain just for the record 17 that I am what we normally call a New Canadian. I came 18 here as a Centennial immigrant in 1967 during the 19 Pan-Am games. I had heard those horrible stories about 20 North American broadcasting. That's the only news that 21 filters into Europe from North America that is all 22 commercialized. 23 299 Then I came to Winnipeg and I 24 discovered this absolutely marvellous agency called the 25 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and its French StenoTran 67 1 division called Radio-Canada. If there is one reason, 2 I will be very frank about that, if there is one reason 3 why I stayed in Canada, even though I came here only as 4 almost an occasional employee, it was because of the 5 CBC and because of Radio-Canada. There is nothing 6 anywhere in the world resembling this. 7 300 It is the institution that has taught 8 me what it means to be a Canadian, has taught me what 9 Canada is all about, what the people of Canada are all 10 about. It simply has made an impression on me, unlike 11 anything else I have ever experienced. 12 301 The CBC provides information to 13 Canadians from coast to coast to coast, and everything 14 in between. Not just the little tidbits, not a story 15 about, you know, whose cat bit what dog, its the 16 substantive issues that are being covered by the CBC, 17 issues, events people. 18 302 I teach economics and labour studies 19 at the University of Manitoba. Only the CBC provides 20 in depth, adequate coverage in matters of economics. 21 No other radio station, TV station or printed media 22 paid any attention to the collapse of the western 23 economy in the past 10 years. Nobody talked about the 24 fallout of the demise of the Soviet Union except for 25 the CBC. StenoTran 68 1 303 Only the CBC provides adequate 2 coverage of labour issues. The poor are only heard on 3 the CBC. They are also being seen, I must say, on the 4 Vision channel which I'm very grateful for that we have 5 that on our local cable. 6 304 Adam Smith, the founder of capitalism 7 as some people call it, Adam Smith warned us never to 8 hand over education and culture to the marketplace 9 because as Adam Smith says, when two business people 10 get together you can be assured that they are trying to 11 do the public out of something that belongs to the 12 public, and then of course only to fill their own 13 pockets. Now, I'm using my words, not Adam Smith's 14 words, but you can look it up. 15 305 About 12 years ago, 11 years ago, I 16 visited the old CBC building on Jarvis Street in 17 Toronto. There I saw on the bulletin board pinned 18 something with the University of Manitoba logo, and 19 being very shortsighted of course I had to go and stand 20 very close, and I suddenly realized they had pinned up 21 something that I had written, that I had written and I 22 had sent earlier somewhere because people ask me for my 23 opinion. 24 306 Actually, it started out when I sent 25 somebody an e-mail which has a signature, one of my StenoTran 69 1 many signatures on the e-mail, that "Heaven is a folk 2 festival". I have been a folk festival supporter and 3 volunteer for almost 20 years now. Also, thanks to 4 CBC, by the way, with Peter Gzowski of course being 5 such an eminent host. And somebody asked me: If 6 Heaven is a folk festival, what else are they doing 7 there? I said, "Well, they listen to the CBC", and we 8 got to talk about it, and finally I wrote the following 9 down, and it is old, it is a dozen years old: 10 "In Heaven they eat with Motion 11 in Music, RSVP or other CBC 12 classical music programs. Then 13 they clean up and do the dishes 14 with As It Happens. They enrich 15 the mind with Ideas, Quirks & 16 Quarks and State of the Arts, 17 they relax with Morningside, 18 Simply Folk or Max Ferguson, 19 they reminisce with The 20 Transcontinental, Otto 21 Lowie (ph) or Max Ferguson, they 22 laugh with the Radio Show and 23 the Royal Canadian Air Farce, 24 they cry with Business World 25 from sadness and with A Joyful StenoTran 70 1 Sound from happiness. They 2 remain superbly informed as to 3 what's happening down there on 4 that good old Earth with World 5 Report, Canada at 5:00, The 6 World at 6:00, The Inside Track, 7 The Media File, The Medicine 8 Show, Sunday Morning, Cross 9 Country Checkup and The House, 10 and they wonder up there in 11 Heaven why anyone calling 12 himself or herself a true 13 Canadian would dare to cut the 14 budget and destroy it all." (As 15 read) 16 307 I wrote that, as I say, about a dozen 17 things ago. Things haven't changed except that the 18 programming has become poorer. Less money means less 19 freedom to develop new ideas. Still the CBC has been 20 able to maintain its quality in terms of personnel. 21 308 I do a lot of media work. They call 22 me all the time, at least one interview a day, and it 23 always strikes me there are no better informed 24 journalists in this city, and indeed across the country 25 because I get calls from elsewhere too, no better StenoTran 71 1 journalists than the CBC people. They prepare. They 2 know what questions to ask and they actually use my 3 material in a fair and unbiased manner. I have never 4 been misquoted on a CBC program, unlike some of the 5 other printed media where it does occur. 6 309 Today I work 12 hours a day, six and 7 a half days a week. CBC is on all the time. When it's 8 something I do which allows me to listen to spoken 9 word, there is plenty on the radio. When I want to 10 hear the music just think of Saturdays, Pearls of 11 Wisdom, The Vinyl Cafe with that marvellous man Stuart 12 MacLean who succeeded so well our beloved late Clyde 13 Gilmor (ph), Sound Advice with Rick Phillips (ph), The 14 Collector's Corner, terrific programs. 15 310 Where else in Canada do we get that? 16 Nowhere, because the marketplace is not the place that 17 would propagate quality programming including quality 18 music, never mind quality exchange of information. 19 311 Inside Track; where else do we get an 20 intelligent discussion on what is happening in sports? 21 Writers and Company; Tapestry; of course As It Happens; 22 Ideas with Lister Sinclair, who by the way was the one 23 who pinned up my notice on that board in the old 24 building on Jarvis Street. 25 312 Peter Gzowski could be very StenoTran 72 1 irritating sometimes the way he spoke, the things he 2 mentioned, but a little incident, and I will close with 3 that, what happened years ago. It was on Victoria Day 4 when Peter Gzowski had on the show our own Maestro 5 Tovie (ph), and Maestro Tovie said to Peter, he said 6 "Gzowski, isn't that Polish?" "Heavens, no", said 7 Peter, "It's Canadian." 8 313 That's why I support the CBC. It is 9 a Canadian program. It is not inward looking, but 10 looks out to the wild world. It tells the world what 11 we are as Canadians and it tells Canadians what is 12 inside Canada and what is going on outside in the 13 world. There is nothing like it anywhere. 14 314 Please renew their licence and if you 15 have any influence with the government, please get them 16 the money they need to do the work they used to do 17 20 years ago so well. 18 315 Thank you. 19 --- Applause / Applaudissement 20 316 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 21 Mr. Vorst. 22 317 MR. VORST: Okay. My apologies, but 23 I have to leave for work. 24 318 Thank you. 25 319 MS PINSKY: Mr. Gordon Toombs. StenoTran 73 1 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 2 320 MR. TOOMBS: Thank you for the 3 opportunity. 4 321 I would like to start with question 5 three: 6 "Should the programming of CBC 7 be different from other 8 broadcasters and what should 9 these differences be?" 10 (As read) 11 322 We live in a commercial and a 12 business world where it is continually dinned in our 13 ears that the market is the measure of all things. In 14 a consumer society everything becomes a commodity which 15 can be bought and sold. In the airwaves, supply and 16 demand is determined by the largest number of 17 consumers, the largest audience, in other words, the 18 lowest common denominator. 19 323 In preparation for this I consulted 20 the federal statute, the Broadcasting Act, and I have 21 discovered that it uses several very distinct clauses. 22 324 The first one is a distinctive word 23 in describing the mandate of the CBC. I quote: 24 "...providing programming that 25 reflects Canadian attitudes, StenoTran 74 1 opinions, ideas, values and 2 artistic creativity." (As read) 3 325 And in another place: 4 "...reflecting the circumstances 5 and aspirations of Canadian men, 6 women and children." (As read) 7 326 The role of the CBC is to be a 8 reflector. That's the key word "reflector". It occurs 9 several times. That means that the founding 10 visionaries of our public broadcasting system saw it as 11 a disinterested party reflecting back to Canadians the 12 whole spectrum of what we are and what we are about. 13 327 In the cacophony of the radio and TV 14 marketplace, the role of a disinterested reflector is 15 beyond price. Private broadcasters have their place 16 and the social fabric of our nation is richer because 17 of them. But as we all know in a free enterprise 18 system, the owner and the sponsor have the privilege of 19 putting their spin on whatever goes over the airways. 20 The high cost of broadcasting being what it is, that 21 means that the public gets what the business elite can 22 pay for. 23 328 The founders of the CBC long ago saw 24 the need for an alternative to the marketplace. 25 Appealing to the lowest common denominator and the StenoTran 75 1 biggest audience was not its reason for existing and 2 it's even stated in the Act. I quote: 3 "Alternative television 4 programming should be innovative 5 and be complementary to the 6 programming provided for mass 7 audiences." (As read) 8 329 Part two of the question: How should 9 the CBC be different? Because the Broadcasting Act 10 requires that it be different. 11 330 I quote again: 12 "...cater to tastes and 13 interests not adequately 14 provided for by the programming 15 that is otherwise provided for 16 mass audiences including 17 programming devoted to culture 18 and the arts and that reflect 19 Canada's regions and 20 multicultural nature." 21 (As read) 22 331 One historical difference and one of 23 its main attractions has been the absence of 24 advertising and commercial sponsorship. I protest the 25 CBC's growing dependence on commercials. Surely, we StenoTran 76 1 can have one channel of communication between ourselves 2 which is independent of the marketplace. 3 332 Another difference, I and my friends 4 like and support investigative journalism and 5 consumer-oriented programs currently being broadcast 6 and which have a sterling reputation. Now, the private 7 broadcasters will argue that they can do that as well 8 as the CBC. 9 333 But may I remind you, Madam Chair, 10 what a conflict of interest it was for the Columbia 11 Broadcasting System a few years ago when they began to 12 do an investigative journalism on the tobacco companies 13 and what happened to them when they got caught between 14 one of their most lucrative sponsors. This is 15 something the CBC can do. 16 334 We also need more programs for 17 children, both educational and entertaining. These 18 programs must continue without commercial sponsors for 19 young minds are exceedingly impressionable. You may 20 recall that recently Sesame Street, the well-known 21 children's program in the United States has succumbed 22 to commercials. Perhaps as Ralph Nader says, they 23 should change the name from Sesame Street to Huckster 24 Alley. 25 335 Need I remind the Commission we have StenoTran 77 1 children today who readily can identify a dozen or two 2 dozen commercial logos, corporate logos, but they can't 3 name six different species of trees or birds. Is that 4 what we want? 5 336 Another difference comes to mind and 6 that is the CBC's tradition of high standards in the 7 quality of programs offered, in the balance of 8 information offered on matters of public interest, and 9 in the use of the English language, good language and 10 pronunciation. 11 337 Concerning sports programming, I am a 12 basic cable subscriber and have no interest in an all 13 sports channel. I would appreciate some sports 14 coverage, but not six weeks of program interruptions 15 every spring by the National Hockey League finals. It 16 is essential of course that events in which Canadian 17 athletes are competing be adequately covered. 18 338 Another difference, and this refers 19 to question four, the special role of the CBC as the 20 national broadcaster. I quote the Act again. Quote: 21 "...to provide a public service 22 essential to the maintenance and 23 enhancement of national identity 24 and cultural sovereignty." 25 (As read) StenoTran 78 1 339 No private radio or channel exists to 2 remind us of our history, provide independent coverage 3 of all national events and to keep us aware of each 4 other from sea to sea to sea. 5 340 Returning to question one: 6 "How well does the CBC fulfil 7 its role and what should happen 8 in the new millennium?" 9 (As read) 10 341 First of all, it cannot fulfil its 11 role as a national public broadcaster because of the 12 budget cutbacks which have been greater than for any 13 other Crown corporation. The hostility of both the 14 Mulroney and Chrétien governments to the CBC is 15 evidence. An acquaintance of mine who happens to be a 16 senator told me privately that the hidden agenda is to 17 save the CBC radio and proceed toward the privatization 18 of CBC TV. It looks that way. 19 342 The CBC cannot carry out its mandate 20 under the present financial restrictions. The 21 shortwave service to the world was saved at the last 22 minute. Now it's the correspondents in Africa and Asia 23 who cannot be maintained. Even Lloyd Axworthy insists 24 that we need Canadian eyes and ears in key areas of the 25 world. StenoTran 79 1 343 In short, with 30 per cent of 2 broadcast time now devoted to reruns, the CBC can 3 neither do its job nor maintain its audience nor fulfil 4 its mandate by Act of Parliament. 5 344 Part two, concerning the new 6 millennium, faced with the rapidity of technological 7 change, the many new channels, the declining TV 8 audience across North America and the increasing number 9 of citizens with the Internet service, I support the 10 expansion of CBC into digital broadcasting and the 11 worldwide web. 12 345 By the way, the Broadcasting Act even 13 foresaw that long ago, decades ago. I quote again. It 14 said that the CBC should be: 15 "...readily adaptable to 16 scientific and technological 17 change." (As read) 18 346 A brief answer on question two 19 concerning regional service. The CBC did a better job 20 15 or 20 years ago than it is doing today with the 21 budget cuts. 22 347 I would like to remind the Commission 23 of the original mandate again, quote: 24 "...that it be predominantly and 25 distinctively Canadian, that it StenoTran 80 1 reflect Canada and its regions 2 to national and regional 3 audiences while serving the 4 special needs of each 5 region." (As read) 6 348 The Act talks about: 7 "...a balance between local, 8 regional, national and 9 international sources." 10 (As read) 11 349 And I'm quoting there: 12 "This can only be achieved by 13 adequate and active regional 14 broadcast centres." (As read) 15 350 So in conclusion, Madam Chair, I 16 suggest that please renew the local CBC licence. We 17 need it. 18 351 From what we have heard today about 19 your role as a regulatory agency, I gather we are all 20 going to have to storm the doors of our Members of 21 Parliament if we are going to get any action. 22 352 Thank you. 23 --- Applause / Applaudissement 24 353 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 25 Mr. Toombs. StenoTran 81 1 354 MS PINSKY: Brian McLeod. 2 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 3 355 MR. McLEOD: Brian McLeod is my name, 4 and my discussion is as a private citizen commenting on 5 how the local political scene is reported. 6 356 I would like to offer my opinion on 7 the role CBC radio locally is playing today and the 8 role I feel it should play. 9 357 Let me begin by saying I think the 10 people in Winnipeg are poorly served by the media, that 11 is by all media including radio, television and 12 newspapers. 13 358 The media collectively in Winnipeg is 14 usually bland and superficial. It does not know or 15 even care what the issues are. They don't know what is 16 really going on in the community. It is not prepared 17 to do any in-depth looking and reporting. It only 18 pretends. 19 359 It also is suggested here that the 20 performance of CBC radio on local issues is no better 21 nor any worse than any other media outlet. There is a 22 vital role here in Winnipeg that is easily identified 23 that would allow CBC radio to function effectively if 24 taken to heart and really thought through. It is my 25 thought that the Canadian Radio-television Commission StenoTran 82 1 grants a broadcasting licence without any real 2 examination of the role it is intended to fill, nor 3 does it follow through on performance to see what is 4 being done in the public interest. 5 360 Heaven forbid, it is not my intention 6 that CBC radio should be told what to broadcast, but to 7 say CBC radio can only make a real contribution to 8 community affairs when it has carefully looked at the 9 issues, this requires a lot of hard unremitting toil in 10 balance with the allocation of scarce resources to what 11 is important in news gathering. 12 361 What is being referred to here is the 13 reporting of the local political process, that is, the 14 community committee system of government in place in 15 the City of Winnipeg. It is at this level, basic 16 level, that decisions affecting the lives of thousands 17 and thousands of citizens is made and it is this level 18 that is poorly reported or ignored entirely. 19 362 It has been said the business of 20 government is boring. This is true, a lot of it is. 21 It takes patience and dedication to learn the process 22 of the community committee level and it takes patience 23 and dedication to stick to it and report it in a lively 24 and relevant manner. Of course it takes a management 25 that understands this. The CRTC and CBC radio StenoTran 83 1 management should certainly understand this. The 2 community committee system has been in Winnipeg since 3 1972, that is, 27 years, waiting for the media to catch 4 onto its role and importance. It bears repeating. 5 363 Reporting the community committee is 6 not glamorous and it would take a firm hand to see that 7 the process is kept sight of day by day, week by week. 8 The community committee level is a most important step 9 in the process and it is a direct connection between 10 citizens and the political process. Citizens learn the 11 process when issues they are interested in are dealt 12 with and reported on and learn the valuable lesson that 13 they, too, can participate and indeed are encouraged to 14 do so. 15 364 Over the years I have attended many 16 community committee meetings on traffic issues related 17 to our neighbourhood and have observed media interest 18 or rather the lack of it. Through dozens of these 19 meetings I cannot recall once seeing CBC radio there 20 and, in fact, rarely any media at all. Agendas are 21 always available, but they sit their unexamined by any 22 media and therefore the issues go unreported. 23 365 I strongly suspect that somewhere in 24 the past a conscious or unconscious decision has been 25 made by CBC radio that attending community committee StenoTran 84 1 meetings is not productive or rewarding and is unlikely 2 to produce the level of excitement producers think the 3 audience wants to hear. The mundane rules here. 4 366 While my theory is unsupported by 5 scientific evidence, I estimate, from many years of 6 observation, that 50 per cent of taxes collected by the 7 city are spent inefficiently. This is largely because 8 there is no media watchdog analysing and reporting, and 9 much of this spending originates at the community 10 committee level. 11 367 An example of poor reporting is the 12 Charleswood (ph) Bridge. Prior to its construction in 13 1995, it was discussed many times at community 14 committee meetings. Naturally, it was controversial. 15 While it did receive some media attention, no real 16 in-depth analysis was ever done and reported on. This 17 is unbelievable since this was a $30 million project. 18 368 In a report prepared by traffic 19 engineers, it was stated that if the bridge stops at 20 Robin Boulevard and does not proceed to Grant Avenue 21 that the bridge should not be built because of traffic 22 levels local residential streets would experience. 23 Politics prevailed. The Province of Manitoba earmarked 24 $13 million and provided this amount to the City of 25 Winnipeg on the condition that it be used immediately StenoTran 85 1 in bridge construction. The city took the grant and 2 the project stopped at Robin Boulevard. This, despite 3 evidence that local residential streets would be 4 overwhelmed by bridge traffic. The predicted volumes 5 and problems the engineering report predicted are only 6 too accurate. 7 369 Here was an issue crying out for real 8 coverage and did not get it. 9 370 In 1996, with the first anniversary 10 of the bridge approaching, I had a call from CBC radio 11 seeking comments about the impact the bridge had on the 12 community. I asked what treatment they were planning, 13 and just being disappointed with their answer turned 14 them down. They called back with an expanded format 15 which went well. Three local organizations have been 16 spontaneously formed to protest what traffic volumes 17 have done to this residential neighbourhood and they 18 approached CBC radio and were given very brief 19 interviews. 20 371 With the second anniversary 21 approaching in 1997, and no relief by the city in 22 sight, I called CBC radio but got no response. 23 372 Just as an aside, the City of 24 Winnipeg capital budget calls for construction of a 25 connection to Grant Avenue in 2002, but I would suggest StenoTran 86 1 you not make plans to move to the neighbourhood until 2 you see the connection in place. 3 373 A further example, in 1998, an 4 application for rezoning was submitted to the city. 5 This would have resulted in smaller lot sizes. 6 Connecting roadways were planned that would have 7 brought increased traffic. One neighbourhood 8 organization, realizing of course the already severe 9 traffic burden generated on residential streets by the 10 bridge, urged local residents to attend the community 11 committee meeting that would hear the application. 12 Ninety-three residents attended and naturally the 13 application was turned down. 14 374 These are huge numbers concerning an 15 issue of real magnitude in the area. Information 16 concerning this issue was available in the clerks 17 office in advance, but no media other than Metro One 18 thought it worthy of attention. In fact, my opinion 19 from watching its performance over the years is I don't 20 think any of the media had a clue what was happening. 21 375 What is needed of course is a 22 revolution in the way CBC reports local politics, that 23 is, develop a feel for it and give coverage a genuine 24 effort. To quote Gor Vidal (ph): 25 "Who collects what money from StenoTran 87 1 whom in order to spend on what 2 is all there is to politics and 3 should be the central 4 preoccupation of the 5 media." (As read) 6 376 I think the CBC has a vital role to 7 play in the lives of Canadians and this is a time for 8 change and renewal. 9 377 Thank you for the opportunity to 10 prevent my views. 11 378 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 12 Mr. McLeod. 13 379 MS PINSKY: I will ask 14 Jamie Davidson. 15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 16 380 MS DAVIDSON: Thank you. 17 381 The reason I have chosen to come and 18 speak to you today is because I'm afraid that the CRTC 19 and citizens of Canada might underestimate the 20 influence the CBC has on individual citizens. 21 382 My reflections are highly personal 22 and mostly related to CBC radio. Although having said 23 that, my initial reflections are on CBC television. 24 383 In the mid-sixties, my first 25 recollection of CBC and the role it would play in my StenoTran 88 1 life as a 10-year old, I saw two displays of compassion 2 levelled at CBC. 3 384 I have vivid memories of my father 4 lying on the couch either snoozing or watching 5 television. In his own living room he was very 6 opinionated and very intolerant. I recall when 7 Festival -- I don't know if any of you recall that 8 program when it came on -- my father levelled angry, 9 inflammatory, derogatory remarks toward the 10 programming. 11 385 My mother, on the other hand, 12 expresses an opposite picture. She was a career woman 13 in the beginning of the late fifties -- her career 14 began, sorry, in the late fifties. She was a curious 15 and compassionate woman. She seldom watched 16 television. However, surprisingly, she took an hour a 17 week to watch This Hour Has Seven Days with Lori 18 Lapierre (ph) and Patrick Watson. As a child I felt 19 curiosity and respect for this program that warranted 20 my mother's undivided attention. 21 386 In my formative years, at 18-years 22 old, living in Calgary with a group of people, I recall 23 the impact of As It Happens. Alan Maitland was 24 penetrating a secret mercenary contact network located 25 in a pub in Ireland. I didn't know what a mercenary StenoTran 89 1 was. At that point I realized that the world was much 2 bigger than my limited horizon. 3 387 At 19, having left Calgary moving to 4 Saskatoon, I recall one morning with Judy Lemarsh, Don 5 Heron, and I'm afraid I don't remember the other 6 participants, celebrating the end of Judy Lemarsh's 7 stint in This Country In the Morning. The sense of 8 laughter and camaraderie delighted my 19-year old mind. 9 388 At 20, having moved back to Winnipeg, 10 As It Happens again thrilled me as I remember listening 11 to an interview with the President of Iceland regarding 12 the cod wars. I was thrilled because this interview 13 was addressing a research paper that I was working on 14 at that point. 15 389 Another move further west to 16 Lethbridge, continued contact with CBC radio and then a 17 move to Ottawa. 18 390 Ottawa at 22. My partner was newly 19 employed with Environment Canada and was off for three 20 weeks in the field the second day that we arrived in 21 the city. Feeling that I had arrived at the other side 22 of this magnificent country but a side that was foreign 23 and in the beginning somewhat cold, I felt very much on 24 my own, unpacking boxes, no one to share the experience 25 of a new home or a new city. I vividly recall moving StenoTran 90 1 with despondence into our kitchen and turning on the 2 radio. As I rotated the tuning dial looking for 3 something, for some satisfaction, Don Heron's voice 4 filled my kitchen. I wept. I was no longer on my own. 5 I was part of something much bigger. 6 391 It hadn't occurred to my conscious 7 mind that CBC was indeed a national radio, and at that 8 moment I fully realized the power and the influence CBC 9 plays in the life of individual Canadian citizens. 10 Again, when I most needed to be, I was part of one 11 country. 12 392 I could regale you with specific 13 stories of precious and significant moments the CBC has 14 played in my life. I have spent the last 18 years in a 15 community with a focus on research and development. 16 Many citizens from many other countries have visited 17 and moved to our community. The consistent 18 recommendation to the new families is: In order to get 19 a sense of Canada tune into CBC radio. 20 393 I recall laughing out loud as 21 Peter Gzowski encountered fruit flies in his studio as 22 he interviewed an herbologist. I recall feeling 23 honoured and delighted to be welcomed to eavesdrop on a 24 conversation between Peter Gzowski and Farley Mowatt. 25 I recall crying with compassion, identification and StenoTran 91 1 understanding at a letter sent to Morningside from 2 another citizen from our great country. I recall 3 knowing the pride I felt as a Canadian and the respect 4 I felt for the countless brave and insightful Canadian 5 individuals whose stories have been told on CBC. 6 394 If by now you have glazed over after 7 listening to the accolades I heap upon CBC, I would 8 like you to wipe away the glaze and listen to what I 9 have to say. 10 395 Eighteen years ago today, I 11 experienced the miracle of birth and was blessed with a 12 wonderful a son, a son who blended humour, sensitivity, 13 physical strength and intelligence into his daily 14 existence. Two years' ago last Saturday my son died. 15 I have no desire to be melodramatic. I have not got 16 the words to express the devastation his death has had 17 on my soul. Cynics and perhaps others would feel that 18 what I have to say borders on the ludicrous, but it is 19 indeed a fact. 20 396 Through the intense grief and 21 isolation I have felt and continue to feel when family 22 and friends would not or could not reach into the depth 23 of my sorrow, many times it was the people on CBC who 24 made me realize that people do still live. They are 25 still thinking and debating and complaining and StenoTran 92 1 laughing. Canada's heart still beats strongly, 2 strongly, I might add, in light of adverse cutbacks. 3 397 I have heard people speak of CBC as 4 elitist. Knowing quite well what elitism means, I 5 cannot but translate this into alienation. If I'm not 6 part of the elite, then I am alienated from what they 7 are doing. I believe we are alienated if we are made 8 to feel uncomfortable. 9 398 I recall my father's rage when he was 10 confronted with the unusual and unfamiliar arts world 11 portrayed in Festival. I am sorry that certain 12 individuals are unable to look beyond their comfortable 13 world and at least recognize that there is a world 14 beyond our tightly defined horizons. I am sorry that 15 some of us do not appreciate the challenge of 16 investigation and representation of alternates points 17 of view, but I am grateful the CBC has throughout my 18 life reminded me that I am part of a much bigger 19 picture. It has invited me to question my biases and 20 to hear other opinions, to weigh the information, to 21 think. I have had the chance to listen, feel for and 22 appreciate Canadians and I have not been alone. There 23 has been no other medium that has come remotely close 24 to doing this for me. 25 399 Do not underestimate the influence StenoTran 93 1 CBC has had on individual Canadians. Do not assume for 2 a moment that the sense we have of our fellow 3 Canadians, our diverse regions, our national and 4 individual celebrations and heartaches would be as 5 strong as it is today without the work of CBC and those 6 with the vision of its success. 7 400 With regard to past cuts and future 8 funding, and at the risk of sounding overly aggressive, 9 I will paraphrase a prophetic phrase I implore the CBC 10 to consider: If one believes the cost of education and 11 knowledge is too great, one ought to try to fathom the 12 cost of ignorance. 13 401 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 14 Ms Davidson. 15 --- Applause / Applaudissement 16 402 MS PINSKY: Mary Hewitt-Smith is the 17 next presenter. 18 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 19 403 MS HEWITT-SMITH: Fellow Canadians, 20 addressing you as a public citizen today I recall a 21 speech I made 10 years ago when I talked about two 22 things that united our country. 23 404 Today we have already lost our 24 continental railway and our Canadian Broadcasting 25 Corporation is constantly being weakened link by link. StenoTran 94 1 405 In the past, the CBC has expressed 2 our values, formed the stories from which our history 3 is written, expressed our culture and explored our 4 visions of the future. 5 406 Today the CBC has been unique in 6 celebrating and promoting our identity as a nation, 7 unlike the commercial stations which have no such 8 mandate or interest. Everyone knows of the vast 9 cutbacks by the federal governments during the past 10 decade, which has caused the loss of the local news 11 broadcasting, discouraging our own communities and all 12 our communities from other across Canada. 13 407 I read that wrong and it's important 14 and I'm going to reread it. 15 408 Everyone knows of the vast cutbacks 16 by the federal governments during the past decade which 17 has caused the loss of local news broadcasting, 18 disconnecting our own communities and all communities 19 from others across Canada. Old programs have been 20 replaced by ever-increasing repeat programming. Many 21 programs have been dropped at the height of their 22 popularity while many of the new shows do not capture 23 our interest or imagination. In the past the CBC has 24 endeavoured to educate and inform Canadians. Programs 25 like the Farm Forum contributed greatly in organizing StenoTran 95 1 our farmers, pulling them through The Depression. 2 409 I'm sad to say that I cannot see the 3 CBC in this role today with the forces that influence 4 it. Today we, as Canadians, expect our news broadcasts 5 and information programs to give us balanced 6 viewpoints. We want to hear the viewpoints of the 7 political party in power and the opposition parties, 8 depending on the issues. We want to hear reports from 9 the C.D. Howe and Fraser Institutes. 10 410 On the other hand, we expect to hear 11 how organizations like the Canadian Centre for Policy 12 Alternatives or the Council of Canadians stand on 13 issues. 14 411 Many businesses show interest in 15 commercialization of some of our prime time radio. The 16 advertising dollars will certainly negatively influence 17 the content of the programs. I am unabashedly a very 18 loyal CBC radio listener. When my piano tuner entered 19 my house a few years ago, he laughed with surprise to 20 hear my radio still on CBC two months into a strike. 21 It is my very best friend, with Terry MacLeod gently 22 awakening me each morning at six o'clock and 23 Marjorie Doyle tucking me into my bed each night. 24 412 Even with devastating cutbacks to 25 many of our local and national programs, not only have StenoTran 96 1 many survived but have vastly improved due to the 2 abundance of superb radio announcers, guests and very 3 intelligent talented people working behind the scenes. 4 413 My accolades go to Terry MacLeod, 5 Avril Benoit, Karen Tool-Mitchell (ph), Donald 6 Benam (ph), Lister Sinclair, Eleanor Wachtell, Jason 7 Moskovitch (ph), Bob MacDonald, Joey Taylor, Nora 8 Young, Rex Murphy, Mary-Lou Finlay, Marjorie Doyle, 9 Ian Brown, Jim Cochrane. 10 414 Never before in over 50 years of 11 devote listening have we ever had so many talented, 12 intelligent, conscientious, unbiased people working on 13 a radio station probably anywhere in the world. Before 14 we get too carried away, I wish to express a few of my 15 personal beefs. 16 415 I am an older single woman who rarely 17 goes out on Saturday night. What a void between eight 18 and ten. It is the only time all week I turn my radio 19 off. I'm sorry, but poor Danny Finkleman with his 20 music and views just doesn't stand up to the standard 21 that I expect from the CBC. The problem is there is no 22 alternative on FM or TV. 23 416 Michael Enright will never be able to 24 replace Peter Gzowski, with whom I have had a long 25 lovely relationship. Michael is an intelligent fluent StenoTran 97 1 person who is simply lacking in sensitivity towards 2 women, ethnics, youth, Canadians in general. Peter at 3 least related to all kinds of Canadians from coast to 4 coast to coast. Michael admits that every opportunity 5 he gets he heads to a ranch in Wyoming. 6 417 I believe Vickie Gaberal (ph) should 7 have remained on CBC radio. I believe the biggest 8 mistake made by the CBC was to cut The Food Show. I 9 really resent this personally as through ignorance I 10 didn't have nutritional information resulting in a 11 major operation and I see so many Canadians who haven't 12 a clue how to eat properly today. 13 418 Very rarely do I turn on my 14 television because I believe it is getting worse 15 yearly. When they cancel programs like Street Legal, 16 North of 60, Rita MacNeil and her wonderful guests, I 17 have lost interest. Hockey, which I used to enjoy, has 18 become far too violent. I wish the NFB films that they 19 used to play would resume. 20 419 I have an eclectic taste in music and 21 resent that so much jazz is being promoted. I wish 22 someone -- I don't know whether I should say this but 23 it's a pet peeve -- I wish someone would have the nerve 24 to tell Ken Finkleman that he is not, never was and 25 never will be funny. The news is too late, StenoTran 98 1 particularly the local news. I don't appreciate the 2 violent edge so prevalent in so many productions. 3 420 There are a few TV programs I do 4 appreciate. As a grandmother I get to watch small 5 children's shows. There were tremendous adjustments 6 when new technologies were developing, but CBC kids' 7 programs now compare very favourably with other 8 channels. Raccoons is the exception, because I sense 9 the program is deliberately being manipulated by values 10 I do not endorse, particularly with children. 11 421 I am disappointed when I have to go 12 out on Sunday nights because I enjoy the variety of 13 shows offered. Monday night, too, is a good evening 14 with Air Farce, This Hour Has 22 Minutes; and Life and 15 Times, David Suzuki, Ventures, Market Place, The Fifth 16 Estate are worth-watching programs. 17 422 In ending, I have some requests. The 18 haemorrhaging from cuts to the CBC must be terminated 19 and funding restored. It is time to reinvest first in 20 local programming, particularly for people who live in 21 areas in close proximity to the U.S. or for those who 22 have had no other means of obtaining local news. With 23 health care being the number one issue of concern with 24 Canadians, why isn't there a program on health 25 prevention? There should be one on food also. StenoTran 99 1 423 Since there are plans behind closed 2 doors to create a new position of CBC Vice-President 3 who would live in Ottawa and be responsible for news, I 4 am absolutely opposed to the federal government 5 interfering with news coverage. In a democratic 6 country, we need no body censoring our news. What ever 7 happened to freedom of speech? 8 424 Since I am happy with the CBC mandate 9 and as is it now stands, I do not care to have it 10 changed through privatization. I am here today because 11 I value our CBC and wish to defend the wonderful work 12 they do. We must fight to restore it to health, to 13 preserve its mandate and to ensure freedom of speech 14 for all. 15 425 I wish to thank the CRTC for this 16 opportunity of speaking to you today. 17 426 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 18 Ms Hewitt-Smith. 19 427 MS PINSKY: David Northcott. 20 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 21 428 MR. NORTHCOTT: Thank you. 22 429 Yes, renew the licence; yes, 23 strengthen the licence; and, yes, use your influence to 24 strengthen CBC's licence. 25 430 Now, that's your scope of influence, StenoTran 100 1 and now the other piece. 2 431 At Winnipeg Harvest, it's a food bank 3 in Winnipeg, we see the distress of families and the 4 food bank experience growing because of decisions made 5 primarily on issues of economic reality and the demand 6 that the economic engine must be the generator of all 7 activity and people must fit those moulds. 8 432 We appreciate that CBC quants that. 9 We appreciate that the broadcasting community was able 10 to put its foot in the economic realities as well as 11 the social and cultural realities which don't enter the 12 economic engine and to tell the stories and reflect the 13 cultures of all sectors of our society. That's an 14 asset for all Canadians. 15 433 There are four sectors in our 16 society. There is the government sector, there is the 17 not-for-profit sector, there is the business and 18 organized labour sector, and the fourth sector of all 19 which critically depends on the CBC and the right to 20 access the CBC, that's neighbourhoods, neighbourhoods 21 where people live, decisions are made and folks who 22 contribute to many, many charities in Canada. 23 434 The CBC has an ability to put its 24 foot in many worlds, and please don't demand that it 25 put all its feet and all its financial eggs in the StenoTran 101 1 economic basket and the for-profit world. I think it 2 does itself a disservice by doing that. 3 435 The CBC is a distinctive and 4 continuous cultural link with the cultural hearts and 5 the mosaic called Canada. The CBC's model has been 6 known as a thinking person's media outlet for many, 7 many years with just cause. The CBC and its workforce 8 are a unique blend of for-profit commercial 9 broadcasting skills while at the same time providing 10 access for developing Canadian talent, unique 11 entertainment and programs that otherwise would not be 12 showcased in Canada. 13 436 There are five hits. 14 437 The first hit is a right to access to 15 information and data by all Canadians, regardless of 16 their income, regardless of their ability to purchase a 17 service, regardless of where they live in Canada. 18 438 The second piece, developing a 19 showcase in Canadian talent, is not a profitable 20 endeavour until they get popular and commercially 21 viable. At some point in time somebody has to do the 22 developing and CBC has a strong and rich tradition with 23 doing that. 24 439 Thirdly, the CBC is a safe place to 25 rethink issues of politics, economic activity, StenoTran 102 1 ecological activity and to rethink and channel and 2 engage people in a dialogue without worrying about 3 having the funders cut, although when you move into 4 government issues I'm sure we all have that risk. But 5 to be a safe place to rethink and challenge has got to 6 be the centrepiece of what CBC has been doing for many 7 years, and please encourage and use your licensing 8 skills to encourage that. 9 440 Fourthly, a skill and career 10 excellence and fair and just compensation for many men 11 and women in Canada who train themselves to be career 12 people in CBC. CBC has had the reputation for fairness 13 and caring and being able to nurture people with fair 14 dollars. We are not interested in the move to minimum 15 wage jobs, to term work and the private sector 16 commercial interests in broadcasting. We are 17 interested in people that can develop careers, pay 18 their taxes and have an industry standard broadcasting 19 that is world renowned. Please, let's not lose that. 20 441 Fifthly, thresholds. The whole 21 relationship that the CRTC can bring to the table is 22 your ability to do licensing and respect the thresholds 23 that are challenging the whole Canadian mosaic 24 including the social justice piece. 25 442 Food banks in Canada know full well StenoTran 103 1 that we can't eliminate the issues of child poverty or 2 hungry Canadians using food banks without strong 3 ethically funded government dollars. The challenge the 4 CRTC can bring is a licensing agreement that can force 5 government to their table ethically strong as well as 6 force CBC to the table with the same ethical challenges 7 to treat its people well. 8 443 Social justice, rethinking issues and 9 developing Canadian talent is not profitable work to 10 do. However, as a Canadian that struggles with that 11 torn safety net, we need a thinking, reflective voice 12 that asks us all tough questions and demands answers. 13 We must measure activity not just with economic dollars 14 but with people who make up the core fabric of Canada, 15 many of whom cannot afford or have the skills to 16 participate in the economic engine. To have a media 17 that is funded by our tax dollars allows us to expect 18 programs, questions, reflections for all of us, not 19 just those that can afford to buy the product. 20 444 We are delighted at Winnipeg Harvest 21 for their relationship with many, many talented people 22 and all the media outlets in Winnipeg, not just CBC. 23 We appreciate both the commercial and public 24 broadcasters. We appreciate the print and electronic 25 ability to tell the stories and ask the questions that StenoTran 104 1 affect our lives every day. 2 445 We also recognize and appreciate the 3 unique relationship that the public broadcasting 4 system, CBC, crosses, over many boundaries, crosses 5 over business and organized labour, crosses over 6 government, crosses over not-for-profit boundaries, as 7 well as being able to stir and influence 8 neighbourhoods. All four sectors CBC is able to step 9 into without fear of financial retribution without fear 10 of losing commercial sponsors. 11 446 Essentially, Canada should not just 12 be driven by economic realities that we are challenged 13 with to so many areas today. Decisions from the head, 14 heart and soul of Canada, and not just from the pocket 15 book, are hopefully going to make a culture that will 16 eliminate food banks. 17 447 Thank you. 18 --- Applause / Applaudissement 19 448 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 20 Mr. Northcott. 21 449 MS PINSKY: Cheryl Ashton. 22 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 23 450 MS ASHTON: Thanks. 24 451 Good afternoon. My name is Cheryl 25 Ashton and I'm the Executive Director of the National StenoTran 105 1 Screen Institute Canada. NSI Canada is one of the four 2 federally recognized training institutions in Canada 3 which focuses exclusively on training writers, 4 producers and directors for the Canadian film and 5 television industry. 6 452 NSI Canada was established in 7 Edmonton, Alberta 13 years ago making it the oldest 8 film and television training institute in Canada. 9 NSI Canada has offices in Edmonton and more recently 10 Winnipeg. We are the only federally recognized film 11 and television training institute located in Western 12 Canada consequently giving us a very unique perspective 13 on the film and television industry in this country. 14 453 Our perspective is based on the 15 reality of the film and television writers, producers 16 and directors we train across the country. Unlike 17 their centrally located peers, our regional writers, 18 producers and directors find that without a voice or 19 presence in the larger centres they are at a clear 20 disadvantage in terms of having access to the centrally 21 located CBC's decision makers. 22 454 In this industry, in addition to what 23 you know, it is more important to adhere to the old 24 adage of who you know. 25 455 NSI Canada, over the last 13 years, StenoTran 106 1 has trained these regional independent film and 2 television writers, directors and producers in the same 3 fashion as their centrally located counterparts only to 4 discover the regional talent is held hostage by their 5 address. The final result is that we as Canadians lose 6 a very unique opportunity to view the images and hear 7 the stories from all regions of this country. 8 456 With this fact in mind, NSI Canada 9 strongly urges the CRTC to continue to support the CBC 10 licence, but also to encourage the CBC to decentralize 11 its decision-making process and encourage the 12 corporation to allow regional directors such as 13 Jane Chalmers (ph) and Joan Novak and their staff and 14 give them the opportunity to make informed, instructive 15 decisions about what their viewing audience wants to 16 see and what their independent production community is 17 able to produce. 18 457 Further, these dedicated 19 professionals should be given the opportunity to assist 20 in the development and broadcast licence 21 decision-making process on a national level. 22 458 Having said that, I can speak with 23 great appreciation of the support NSI Canada has 24 received from the CBC over the last 18 years and this 25 includes -- CBC has continually sponsored our Drama StenoTran 107 1 Prize Program which is an annual national competition 2 which chooses six teams of young film makers from 3 across the country, puts them through an intensive 4 18-month training process and results in their first 5 short film which is premiered at a festival that we 6 sponsor called Local Heroes International Spring 7 Festival. 8 459 CBC training and development has 9 allowed us to co-produce training workshops including 10 the National Writers Round Table, the Best of Input and 11 the Making It Happen seminars. The participation of 12 CBC personnel in the various NSI Canada juries and 13 workshops throughout the year is greatly appreciated. 14 These levels of participation and support play an 15 invaluable role in assisting us to be able to fulfil 16 our mandate. 17 460 One final point I would like to make 18 is the CBC, since its inception, has played an 19 invaluable role in building a strong and vibrant 20 national television industry. Over the last decade, we 21 in the film and television industry have witnessed a 22 tremendous growth in the strength and talent of our 23 regional producers, writers and directors. 24 461 In Nova Scotia, Saskatchewan and 25 Manitoba huge increases in production volume, in StenoTran 108 1 production activity have occurred. If the CBC is to 2 continue to have a true national presence, then I 3 strongly urge the CRTC to encourage all of the 4 centrally located CBC management to travel to these 5 provinces on a regular basis in order to meet with the 6 independent production communities and have them 7 witness the reality of what is really happening. 8 462 In addition, these centrally located 9 managers should be encouraged to acknowledge not only 10 the expertise of the CBC's regional directors, but of 11 the staff that live and work and produce in the regions 12 because they are on the front line and they truly 13 understand what the committees want to see and what 14 they are able to produce. 15 463 Thanks. 16 464 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 17 Ms Ashton. 18 465 MS PINSKY: Carol Vivier. 19 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 20 466 MS VIVIER: Good afternoon, 21 Commissioners and staff, ladies and gentlemen. 22 467 My name is Carol Vivier and I'm the 23 CEO of Manitoba Film & Sound. 24 468 Manitoba Film & Sound is the 25 provincial funding agency whose mandate is to develop StenoTran 109 1 and invest in the infrastructure and the promotion and 2 marketing of Manitoba's film, television and sound 3 recording industries. We are funded by the Department 4 of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. 5 469 I'm here today to discuss issues 6 relating to the CRTC's Public Notice 1998-134 regarding 7 public consultations on the Canadian Broadcasting 8 Corporation. 9 470 First of all, I would like to thank 10 the Commission for undertaking these regional hearings. 11 I believe it is very important that Canadians from 12 across the country have the opportunity to discuss with 13 the Commission their views of the public broadcaster, 14 and I would like to state for the record that I 15 strongly support the CBC as a public broadcaster. 16 Although I have some concerns, as I will mention in a 17 moment, I do not hesitate to support the CBC as a much 18 needed cultural institution in our country. 19 471 In a public notice, the Commission 20 outlined four general questions as a guide for 21 participants. I would like to comment on these four 22 general areas, but not necessarily in the same order as 23 outlined by the Commission. 24 472 I would like to start with the last 25 question first: StenoTran 110 1 "Is there a special role for the 2 CBC and the presentation of 3 Canadian programming?" 4 (As read) 5 473 Absolutely. Yes. The CBC as our 6 public broadcaster has a special obligation to develop 7 and showcase talent from across Canada. The CBC has a 8 unique responsibility to participate in the development 9 of emerging Canadian talent including writers, actors, 10 directors and producers, and to provide opportunities 11 for this talent to grow and to gain stature within 12 Canada and outside of our borders. 13 474 The next question: 14 "Should the programming provided 15 by the CBC be different from 16 that provided by other 17 broadcasters?" (As read) 18 475 Again, absolutely, yes. Private 19 sector broadcasters are motivated by profits and the 20 CBC should not be forced to focus on competing for 21 ratings or advertising dollars against the private 22 sector. The CBC's role should continue to be to 23 provide Canadian audiences with the best of Canadian 24 programming made by Canadians. 25 476 Now we come to the important StenoTran 111 1 questions from the perspective of Manitoba Film & 2 Sound: 3 "How well does the CBC serve the 4 public on a regional as well as 5 a national level?" (As read) 6 477 I am speaking primarily to television 7 here and the Canadian content. For an independent I 8 would argue not very well. The Broadcasting Act states 9 that the CBC's programming should reflect Canada and 10 its regions to national and regional audiences while 11 serving the special needs of those regions. Yet in 12 Manitoba we have witnessed the downsizing of the CBC 13 regional office here and the demise of regional and 14 local productions. 15 478 As we presented to the CRTC and our 16 appearance at the television policy review hearings 17 last September, the CBC's track record in triggering 18 national productions in Western Canada and Manitoba in 19 particular has been less than stellar. 20 479 According to the Western Television 21 Production Study prepared for the Department of 22 Canadian Heritage last year, CBC's financing of Western 23 Canadian independent television production dropped 24 51 per cent between 1993-94 and 1997-98, while dropping 25 only 25 per cent of the total English language Canadian StenoTran 112 1 content independent production across the five years. 2 480 Quite simply, over the past five 3 years the CBC has significantly reduced their overall 4 involvement in the west. In Manitoba in 1997-98, the 5 CBC's total involvement in triggering any television 6 production from the Canadian Television Fund amounted 7 to one television licence fee of $24,000 for one 8 documentary project. 9 481 Regional production and the 10 development of Western Canadian stories for Canadian 11 television screens is an inherent public interest 12 objective of the Broadcasting Act. The CBC has a 13 responsibility to reflect the regions to the rest of 14 the country and in the case of providing broadcast 15 opportunities to the producers and other talent in 16 Manitoba, the CBC is not doing a very good job. 17 482 While the regional CBC office does 18 what it can, without adequate funding and air time, 19 dedicated air time, it's pretty difficult for them to 20 achieve very much here. 21 483 This is compounded for western 22 producers by the difficulty of gaining access to CBC 23 decision makers who are based predominantly in Toronto. 24 484 Given the CBC's mandate, these CBC 25 decision makers should be regularly travelling across StenoTran 113 1 the country meeting with producers and searching for 2 new stories and new talent to develop. How do they 3 know they are getting the best if they are not out 4 there actively looking for it. 5 485 Better yet would be to empower the 6 decision makers that earn the regional offices with 7 funding and the ability to engage product from their 8 own areas, hence, I think some decentralization. 9 486 So, in conclusion, to answer the 10 first question posed by the Commission, "How well does 11 the CBC fulfil its role as a national public 12 broadcaster", I would say in some instances the CBC 13 does admirably well with the resources that it has, but 14 in terms of serving the hopes and aspirations of 15 western and Manitoba producers, the CBC seems to have 16 abandoned its mandate. 17 487 Finally: 18 "Should the CBC fulfil its role 19 in a different manner in the 20 future?" (As read) 21 488 Yes. In the future the CBC's 22 programming should reflect contributions from across 23 the country by providing equal opportunities for all 24 Canadians to develop, produce and showcase their 25 stories in their own regions and to the rest of the StenoTran 114 1 country. 2 489 Thank you very much. 3 490 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 4 Ms Vivier. 5 491 MS VIVIER: I would just like to add 6 one note. 7 492 With Canadian programming, I think 8 the CBC has been caught in this raising of advertising 9 revenue. Germany, when it's content programming that 10 the German government provides for, their main measure 11 is audience. Is that programming reaching the German 12 audience? If it is, that is sufficient to reach an 13 objective. 14 493 I think in Canada, as regards the 15 CBC, that needs to be refocussed. I think if the CBC's 16 programming is reaching the Canadian audience in great 17 numbers, that is a terrific measure and I think they 18 are caught between trying to raise advertising dollars 19 and meet audience targets, and I think in some cases 20 it's not achievable. 21 494 Thank you. 22 495 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 23 496 MS PINSKY: You are welcome to remain 24 at the table if you wish, I think there is enough room, 25 or you can step down. I will call up three more StenoTran 115 1 presenters whose names I have registered here: Murray 2 Smith, Herbert Schulz and Kenneth Emberley. 3 497 If there is anybody else in the room 4 who would like to make a presentation, you can come up 5 to the table and make yourself known. 6 --- Short pause / Courte pause 7 498 MS PINSKY: Mr. Murray Smith. 8 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 9 499 MR. SMITH: Good afternoon. I'm a 10 retired school teacher with, I would say, a lifelong 11 involvement with radio as a listener. 12 500 I asked myself my motivation for 13 coming and realized that I could be accused of 14 appearing out of self-interest in that it matters a 15 great deal to me that the radio in particular, but 16 television as well, provide the kinds of things that 17 I'm interested in. 18 501 Now, I know that self-interest has a 19 suspect sound to it and I myself often feel that when 20 the private broadcasters make appearances to your 21 Commission they do so out of self-interest, which 22 really means the growth and profitability of their 23 industry. 24 502 I find that by contrast, when I hear 25 the CBC arguing their case, they refer more often to StenoTran 116 1 service and education and national culture, 2 communication of the arts and I feel that as less the 3 aggrandizement of CBC than trying to live up to what is 4 in the Act. So, yes, I'm here because these things 5 have meant a lot to me over the years. 6 503 I found it very heartening listening 7 to the presentations this afternoon because they were 8 almost entirely positive, even where there were 9 criticisms expressed. As you just heard from 10 Ms Vivier, the basic support from the CBC was very 11 strong. 12 --- Technical difficulties / Difficultés techniques 13 504 MR. SMITH: I didn't know I created 14 that much noise that easily. 15 505 What came through to me, then, was 16 the warmth and strength of support for this national 17 institution. I asked myself and I ask you now: Have 18 you ever heard support like that for any private 19 broadcaster? Have you ever heard that kind of loyalty 20 to any broadcasting station or broadcasting system? 21 506 As a youngster growing up in the 22 thirties, I was actually around at the time that radio 23 first became significant in Winnipeg life. I was aware 24 that there was a national institution launched, I was 25 also aware of local broadcasting stations. It never StenoTran 117 1 occurred to me that these were competitive with each 2 other, but in the 60 years since that time it is very 3 clear how their interests and their mandates have 4 diverged. 5 507 In the fifties, when I was living in 6 England, I encountered a man, Graham Spry (ph) who was 7 actually directly involved in the creation of the 8 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and I though at that 9 time, and I have thought often since, how lucky we were 10 that there were this handful of people who thought that 11 this was terribly important and who argued with 12 government and argued with the public that we needed a 13 public broadcaster. I thought it was very helpful that 14 Gordon Toombs reminded me, obviously he doesn't need to 15 remind you, of the clauses in the Act which express 16 even today the kind of vision which was there in the 17 thirties about what radio could do for this country in 18 terms of tying us together, in terms of fostering the 19 development of communities, you know, as isolated as 20 some of the western communities were. 21 508 Someone mentioned Farm Forum. I 22 don't think most people today have any notion of the 23 impact that that program had in the prairies. 24 509 In my thinking about the work of the 25 CBC, I tend to be more interested in radio because I StenoTran 118 1 find that the CBC radio is much more distinctive. I 2 would like to remind you that the cost of providing 3 public radio is very modest compared with the cost of 4 providing public television and that for the money 5 invested Canadians get a wonderful service. 6 510 In our home, my wife and I are both 7 radio listeners. Radios are on a good deal of the 8 time, although not as background. She listens only to 9 CBC Radio One because she is a talk person and she 10 really values all the programs that CBC offers. I 11 listen only to CBC Radio Two, which means that I listen 12 to music except where it is interrupted for the news. 13 511 To me there are two components of 14 CBC radio that are especially precious. One is the 15 kind of mature presentation of ideas exemplified by the 16 program with that name, and the other is the valuable 17 presentation of music. I think that we should remind 18 ourselves -- and perhaps I can take that liberty 19 because I haven't heard anyone saying it on behalf of 20 the organizations -- I think we should remind ourselves 21 that CBC radio have a very close connection with 22 several musical organizations in Winnipeg, the Manitoba 23 Chamber Orchestra, many of their performances are 24 broadcast by the CBC, the Virtuosi Concerts, all of 25 whose concerts are broadcast by CBC; the Winnipeg StenoTran 119 1 Symphony Orchestra whose New Music Festival is almost 2 entirely broadcast by the CBC, not only across the 3 country but internationally, and then many local 4 chamber groups and recitalists who get on the air. 5 512 Compared with that commitment to 6 local music making I don't think CBC television rates 7 as highly. It has done something for the ballet, but 8 it hasn't done much for the Winnipeg Symphony or any 9 other instrumental group. 10 513 I would remind people who weren't 11 around when these institutions started that the first 12 broadcasts on radio and indeed the first broadcasts on 13 television were almost always music. Even in the 14 development of the American networks, the first 15 programs that were transmitted nationally in the United 16 States were of serious music and popular music, but the 17 two in some sort of balance. 18 514 When I was 20 I had an opportunity to 19 live in Britain for three years so I had a very serious 20 exposure to BBC radio, not much to BBC television. BBC 21 radio was astonishing to me even though I had 22 appreciated radio as I had heard it in Winnipeg through 23 the CBC and through Sicyus (ph) Bay where they had a 24 good deal of music broadcast. 25 515 But living in Oxford I could tune in StenoTran 120 1 music for two or three hours or four or five hours a 2 day, I could pick and choose, I could hear what I 3 wanted and ignore what I didn't want. It was a musical 4 education without parallel and its a debt that I owe to 5 them and since to CBC, and I think that it is a debt 6 many people have and that many younger people have the 7 right to incur by getting their music through the 8 radio. 9 516 I have a couple of other comments 10 which are more random. One is that I think many of us 11 have become very hostile to advertising and I consider 12 it one of the many blessings of CBC radio that it is 13 not subjected to advertising. 14 517 When I was in Britain about 15 years 15 ago, I watched more television and I watched the BBC 16 which had no advertising. One example which I might 17 quote. I'm fond of watching track and field on 18 television, which covers it very well. I watched a 19 one-hour BBC program in which they reported on and 20 showed every event which took place during an entire 21 afternoon's competition. They managed to show you 22 every race and every jump. That's because: (a) there 23 was no advertising; (b) there were no lengthy 24 interviews; (c) there were no in-depth biographies, 25 there was no personal interest stuff. They actually StenoTran 121 1 showed you what happened. 2 518 On reflection, I was really amazed 3 what could be fitted into one hour. So when I returned 4 to Canada I watched a broadcast on an American network 5 of a similar event and in the course of an hour there 6 five events shown, not 35 but five because all the rest 7 of the time was advertising, commentary, interview, 8 background, human interest stuff. They were not 9 interested in showing you the track and field 10 competition. They were putting on a show. 11 519 I think that once in awhile we should 12 ask ourselves what commercial radio would be like 13 without advertising, what television of all kinds would 14 be like without advertising and ask whether we would 15 have accepted this if we had been given a choice 16 40 years ago. 17 520 I return to my basic point that I 18 think you have heard this afternoon: a level of 19 support and a level of loyalty for the kind of things 20 which CBC can do, an interest in enabling it to 21 continue fulfilling its mandate better than it has been 22 able to do with limited resources. It should reinforce 23 your understanding that there is a substantial number 24 of Manitobans who consider that the CBC is an important 25 part of their lives. StenoTran 122 1 521 Thank you. 2 522 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 3 Mr. Smith. 4 523 MS PINSKY: Mr. Herbert Schulz. 5 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 6 524 MR. SCHULZ: Madam Commissioner, I 7 want to begin by commending you for being here, and 8 through you the CRTC. 9 525 I expect there will be those who will 10 feel that this is another one of those periodic reviews 11 of the CBC which is designed to reduce its prestige and 12 eventually to dispose of it as a public corporation. 13 But as far as I am concerned, any agency that is 14 publicly funded and that has as high a profile as the 15 CBC and that has the potential for doing good or bad 16 that the CBC has needs to periodically be reviewed. 17 526 Therefore, I am glad that you are 18 here and that I am one of those who is here to help 19 review it. In fact, one of the reasons that I have 20 always supported public corporations is because we can 21 periodically review them but we don't need to go -- you 22 know, if you have a private TV station and you don't 23 like what they are showing you are told "Well, turn the 24 channel", but if you turn the channel you get the same 25 junk. With the CBC we can sit at meetings like this StenoTran 123 1 and review it and try to get the kind of programs that 2 we would like to have. 3 527 Incidentally, I want to concur with 4 Murray Smith, that you are dealing here with the people 5 who have used CBC all their lives and who feel that it 6 is a part of their lives. 7 528 Now, I had intended to make a great 8 speech here for my edification as well as yours. 9 Unfortunately, well, it was all in my mind and then 10 Saturday morning I stopped at a book store and walked 11 in just to see what they had and the first book I 12 spotted was The Microphone Wars by everybody's 13 favourite news anchor Nolton Nash. So I made the 14 mistake of reading it and I discovered that all the 15 proposals that I had been intending to make here had 16 already been experimented with and most of them had 17 failed. 18 529 So I come here to give simply a very 19 general presentation with respect to a rather personal 20 view of the value of CBC. 21 530 A number of years ago my wife and I 22 drove to Florida and on the way back we could hardly 23 wait to get within reach of a Canadian radio 24 transmitter. My wife was playing with the radio dial 25 on the car and suddenly there it was, that distinctive StenoTran 124 1 CBC voice, no one that we knew but it was immediately 2 recognizable as a CBC voice. So we coined an 3 expression: Being Canadian is being able to live in 4 the land of CBC. It's something that we coined just 5 the two of us a long time ago and it's something that 6 we had never quite forgotten and every time we go 7 travelling we feel exactly the same way when we come 8 back. 9 531 I asked my wife one day: Well, what 10 is it that we find in the CBC which we don't find 11 anywhere else? She, being a woman of few words, said 12 "It has scope, it has substance and it has style." 13 532 When I asked for some elucidation, 14 she said "Well, it covers the world and when you have 15 heard a CBC newscast you feel that you have learned 16 something." 17 533 It has style, it has a distinctive 18 voice. You know immediately when you are listening to 19 a CBC newscaster, whether it is on the radio and you 20 know the name or not. It's not like these raucous 21 female voices that you hear so often, particularly in 22 the United States, that make your hair stand on end as 23 if the school teacher is scratching her fingernail on a 24 blackboard on a cold winter morning or that male voice 25 with the nasal whine. These are CBC voices. They StenoTran 125 1 sound like the voices of people who know what they are 2 talking about. They sound like the voices of people 3 that you can have some confidence in. 4 534 Since then we have done a 5 considerable amount of travelling, mostly in the United 6 States and mostly in the west and the midwest and the 7 southwest. We lived in Arizona for two years. We have 8 learned to know a lot of American people, and we have 9 learned to see them as very fine people. They are 10 kind, they are helpful, they are friendly almost to a 11 fault sometimes, but something is missing. These are 12 the people who believe that Rush Limbo (ph) is the 13 reincarnation of Jesus Christ. These are the people 14 who believe that President Clinton was a communist. 15 These are the people who seem to feel that if anyone 16 mentions merikeri (ph) he is a subversive. 17 535 I asked my wife one day: What is it 18 that makes these people -- I mean, they look the same 19 as we do, they speak the same language as we do, what 20 is it that makes them different? She of course gave me 21 the short answer: they have no CBC. And the more I 22 thought about it, the more I have been forced to the 23 conclusion that that does make a difference. We know 24 something. 25 536 When you speak to the people down StenoTran 126 1 there, particularly in the midwest and the southwest, 2 once you get beyond the borders of their state or often 3 beyond the borders of their municipality, they just 4 don't know. We have a picture of the world. We have 5 some idea of what is going on in the world and we get 6 that from CBC. 7 537 Now, the mandate of the CBC, part of 8 the mandate was to stimulate the intellect and to 9 create a self-image for ourselves and also to project 10 it. I think in that respect the CBC has probably been 11 more successful than it knows. It has in fact become 12 unique. But there is another part of the mandate and 13 that is to entertain. How do we go about doing that? 14 We can of course buy the entertainment, but then what 15 do we get? 16 538 Let me read something here. This is 17 a statement made by the United States Federal 18 Communications Ministers, Newton Monnin. I'm sure you 19 are familiar with the name. He said that American 20 television is a procession of game shows, violence, 21 audience participation shows, formula comedies about 22 totally unbelievable families, blood and thunder, 23 mayhem, violence, sadism, murder, western bad men, 24 western good men, private eyes, gangsters, more 25 violence, cartoons and endless commercials, many StenoTran 127 1 screaming, cajoling and offending and most of all 2 boredom. Now that was said about 35 years ago. 3 539 What has changed since? Well, there 4 has been a change. There are not -- well, there is the 5 same amount of dead bodies on American television on 6 the dramas but, you know, we used to be quite reticent 7 about watching those. We didn't know how fortunate we 8 were because now we are seeing a lot of live bodies and 9 they are almost always nude, and they are almost always 10 rolling around wrestling with each other on the bed or 11 on the floor, in the shower. You know, the hair on 12 some of those people. You know, if my body was that 13 hairy I wouldn't expose myself even in the bedroom with 14 the light off, and those are the women. You should see 15 the men -- well, maybe you shouldn't. 16 540 Then more recently there of course 17 has been that feeding frenzy, the morbid fascination 18 with OJ Simpson and his leading role as Mac the Knife, 19 and then there is Monika with her friendly President 20 with the priapic propensities, and that seems to be the 21 only things that we can see. 22 541 Now, when I watch American television 23 and when I watch the American newscasts, particularly 24 in the last couple of years, I can only be so happy 25 that when we came from Europe my parents brought me to StenoTran 128 1 live in Canada rather than the United States. Indeed, 2 to my wife and I, being Canadian is being able to live 3 in the land of CBC. 4 542 Nevertheless, you can't have a 5 network of radio and television without entertainment. 6 I mean, we can buy it easy enough or you can buy the 7 kind of programs that I have just described. In fact, 8 not only can we buy them we can hardly keep them out 9 unless we build a lead wall along the 49th Parallel 10 and -- well, we are not going to do that unless we can 11 justify it as a job creation program -- unless we do 12 that the American shows are here and they are very easy 13 to acquire. 14 543 The question is: Is that what we 15 want? Yet we have to have entertainment if we want to 16 have a mass audience for CBC. Now, we need programming 17 that includes drama, that includes entertainment. 18 544 Now, this is in Norton Nash's book: 19 "The one lesson clearly etched 20 over six decades of CBC history 21 is that programs are primary, 22 everything else is supportive 23 and secondary." (As read) 24 545 In other words, saving money is not 25 the great objective here. The great objective ought to StenoTran 129 1 be programming. 2 546 Then he goes on: 3 "The CBC could be the best 4 managed, most efficient, soundly 5 financed organization in the 6 country, but unless its programs 7 are exciting, enriching and 8 distinctive it won't be worth a 9 saucer of warm spit." (As read) 10 547 Nolton Nash does have a way with 11 words. 12 548 So if we need the programming and if 13 CBC is reluctant to go to commercial advertising for 14 fear that it will make it just like any other station, 15 and if the government is reluctant to fund, then what 16 do we do? 17 549 Several years ago the 18 Caplan-Sauvageau (ph) Commission did a study of CBC, 19 another of the many studies of CBC, and reported that 20 CBC news and current affairs is a great Canadian 21 success story, that there is a paucity of Canadian 22 drama. Only 2 per cent of the dramas seen on English 23 language -- I mark that word -- "English language" 24 television was Canadian produced. 25 550 Then the Commission went on to write StenoTran 130 1 this. Any change in this, the development of Canadian 2 drama will be costly, but, quote: 3 "...paying for the new system is 4 the easy part of the problem. 5 The more difficult question is 6 whether we have the will, 7 whether we care enough about the 8 role Canadian broadcasting plays 9 to do so." (As read) 10 551 Now, of course that is a problem. 11 But it can be done. We know it can be done because we 12 know of at least two groups in North America that have 13 done it and are doing it. One is the religious right 14 in the United States and the other is the separatists 15 in Quebec. They knew exactly what they want to do, 16 they have learned how to use the media to get it done. 17 They have an agenda, and they are prepared to pay the 18 cost to satisfy that agenda. 19 552 Perhaps the problem with the rest of 20 us is that we simply have no agenda. 21 553 I'm sorry. Am I going on too long? 22 Just one more thought. 23 554 In other words, if we want the 24 program, we are going to have to pay the cost. 25 555 Now, there are those who say, well, StenoTran 131 1 perhaps the CBC has fulfilled its mandate so let us 2 sell it and go to the private stations and besides, 3 then there would be no cost. You know, that is the 4 greatest self-delusion of all. 5 556 We have just had a situation, I'm 6 sure you have heard or read about it, where a couple of 7 years ago our government sold our publicly owned 8 telephone system and the argument was that it's costing 9 $90 million a year in interest charges and if we sell 10 it we won't have to pay that. Well, just last week we 11 discovered that we were going to have to pay 12 $90 million in shareholders dividends. So let's say 13 that the cost is the same, but there is a significant 14 difference: we lost the company. 15 557 We have exactly the same thing with 16 CBC. Sure we can get rid of it, but then we go to the 17 private stations and are the private station owners 18 philanthropists? No, they sell advertising, and they 19 advertise the cost of the advertising -- advertising 20 pay their costs. And who pays the cost of the 21 advertising? The people who buy the product from the 22 people who are doing the advertising. Who are these 23 people? They are exactly the same people as the 24 taxpayers. 25 558 So it doesn't really matter. We StenoTran 132 1 either take it out of the taxpayers' pocket or our 2 consumers' pocket. But the difference is that we will 3 have lost the system. 4 559 Thank you. Sorry to go on. 5 560 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 6 Mr. Schulz. 7 --- Applause / Applaudissement 8 561 MS PINSKY: Mr. Kenneth Emberley. 9 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 10 562 MR. EMBERLEY: Thank you. 11 563 I have just been so pleased, ladies 12 and gentlemen. I wrote my brief out "ladies and 13 gentlemen" hoping there would be at least one lady on 14 the CRTC, and I'm very pleased to see that there are 15 two because, now, officially, there are some people 16 that are saying ladies are just as smart and wise as 17 men. It's official. Judy Rebick (ph) told me so. 18 564 I'm so proud to be here and to hear 19 this and to hear the presentations this afternoon. I 20 thought of getting down on my hands and knees and 21 thanking you. 22 565 And thinking of all these passionate 23 wonderful people -- I don't know if you remember the 24 advanced technology that Justice Berger (ph) used that 25 broadcast all across Canada all his hearings, and in StenoTran 133 1 20 years of public hearings I have seen the system 2 perfected to the point where we meet in a small private 3 room with the door closed to hold a public hearing. 4 It's a fraud. It is a fraud. 5 566 You people I believe are very 6 passionately sincere and dedicated people, but you can 7 imagine the shame I feel, the deep shame. Every one of 8 these speeches could have been broadcast on cable 9 television in other provinces as well as here. Every 10 one of those things could have been put on a movie and 11 taken out to the 20 biggest towns in Winnipeg in 12 Manitoba, and I feel a deep sense of shame at the 13 failure of a public hearing that is held in a private 14 room with the door closed. How big an audience is 15 there here sharing in this besides the presenters? 16 Count them with one hand. Could you count them with 17 one hand? 18 567 Ladies and gentlemen, I weep, I weep 19 with the failure. But for 10 years I have been begging 20 for public hearings to be public. Can you imagine, you 21 dedicated people that want to save the CBC -- I believe 22 that with all my heart, you want to save the CBC, look 23 at the opportunity you had to create -- if ten or 24 20,000 people in Manitoba heard these presentations. 25 Please think about that. StenoTran 134 1 568 I love CBC. I know it's not perfect, 2 but, oh, I have a button on my television. It's an 3 advertising button. And I turn on the television to 4 Channel 9 whenever the advertising commercial comes on, 5 sometimes I forget for five minutes and I miss part of 6 the program, but I will not watch commercial 7 advertising because 90 per cent of commercial 8 advertising is like listening to a politician's speech, 9 and I shut off a politician's speech after the first 10 five lies, and I have never heard more than eight 11 minutes of any politician's speech, not in 10 years. 12 569 There has been so much wonderful 13 positive stuff today. Murray mentioned that. Such 14 positive stuff. I want to help what I believe -- help 15 you the best way I can by giving a slightly different 16 presentation, because I want to remind you what we are 17 dealing with, the reality, the hard-ball game. 18 570 Here is the loveliest book "No Car, 19 No Radio Nor Dicker (ph) Permit", the story about a 20 wonderful woman from our University of Manitoba spoke 21 at our Mount Dragon (ph) socialist book store and she 22 is talking about -- a whole book about the regulations 23 for women recipients of social welfare and social 24 assistance, and the spy network and the harassment and 25 the intimidation. StenoTran 135 1 571 You see, you wouldn't be aware as I 2 am that for 150 years we had men judges, men lawyers, 3 men policemen, men church ministers, men doctors. 4 Fifty years after we have banded to get the first women 5 United Church ministers and the first women lawyers 6 graduated. Fifty years later, we have heard the first 7 whisper of women's physical and sexual abuse and child 8 sexual and physical abuse. 9 572 Now, there is a theory that kings and 10 nobleman and billionaires and millionaires are almost 11 all men. There is a word "hierarchy", "patriarchy", 12 "bureaucracy." Those are things. 13 573 That system has been running our 14 world long enough that when I saw the second half of 15 episode of the movie Titanic, I fell off my chair 16 laughing and I realized the people that built the 17 Westray Mine, the people that run the Red Cross, the 18 people with Brian Tobin that put in all the Atlantic 19 fishing deep sea boats to fish all the salmon out of 20 the ocean, our whole country, most of the transnational 21 corporations are still running -- the people that built 22 and sailed the Titanic are still running everything in 23 our country. 24 574 All of the male hierarchy. There are 25 388 billionaires in the world and they have as much StenoTran 136 1 wealth as two billion people. The whole population of 2 China and India is equal to 10 bus loads of selfish, 3 greedy men. In North America it's worse. The head of 4 Microsoft, the President of Wal-Mart with 1,000 5 non-union shops, and one other man have as much wealth 6 as the 100 million poorest Americans. 7 575 Now, this is an official definition 8 of how democracy works. You could get a professor to 9 explain to you that this is caused by the laws that are 10 passed in the government, and Gary Filman (ph) passed 11 15 laws two years ago to prevent unions from having any 12 power. 13 576 We have a problem in our country, in 14 our world. The people, the people in the communities, 15 the people in the villages, mother nature, all the wild 16 creatures are all being destroyed. You just have to 17 ask the CBC's David Suzuki, and all the other 18 intellectuals. Our world is being self-destructed and 19 all the communities in all the world are being 20 self-destructed. 21 577 Did you know the first anthropology 22 textbook I read in 1972 said you cannot make money out 23 of a sustainable society. You have to destabilize it 24 to make exports and imports and then make profit. The 25 only emphasis on this nation for 15 years has been StenoTran 137 1 imports and exports and the destruction of every local 2 community. The end result is that we now have a 3 poverty rate equal to the USA. 4 578 I enclose for you a tiny excerpt from 5 Lorna Morrison's wonderful Senate Report on Poverty 6 made 10 years ago: 7 "In the 10 years the government 8 has worked frantic with every 9 effort in their hearts to 10 increase poverty to the fact 11 that now the minimum wage pays 12 half the value it did 10 years 13 ago." (As read) 14 579 People are on half pay, everybody in 15 the minimum wage. All the shopping centres, all the 16 small grocery stores, all the people that buy 17 commercial television. 18 580 The CBC is the thing that nurtures a 19 community, nurtures a nation, and our world of 20 communities and nations and self-sustaining has been 21 under assault on a scale that you can't believe. 22 581 I have included for you a manuscript 23 written by Alex Carrie (ph), I got it from Dr. Helen 24 Keldica (ph) in our Playhouse Theatre 10 years ago. I 25 distributed 196 copies of that manuscript across Canada StenoTran 138 1 and I handed one to Don Johnson 10 years ago and now he 2 is head of the OPEC in Europe and they are working to 3 set up free trade for the whole world. 4 582 This is the book Alex Carrie's widow 5 published and it detailed a 90-year effort of the 6 National Association of Manufacturers in the United 7 States to prevent democracy from happening, to assure 8 that the policies of the businessmen will always be the 9 policies acted on by government. 10 583 Now, you don't know about the 11 pressures for privatization, the pressures for -- oh, 12 yes, you must know, the overwhelming pressure for 13 privatizing, to deregulate and to sell the CBC. But 14 that will be selling the people of Canada and selling 15 the preacher that nurtures the diversity of Canada. 16 584 The United States has a unique 17 religious philosophy of individualism and a private 18 enterprise and private profit. This has been 19 indoctrinated. This and six other papers I include in 20 my files for you. 21 585 I will very brief. Just five minutes 22 more. 23 586 I give you a package of information 24 so that you can look at it at your leisure, because I 25 know you think this is trying to distract, but I wanted StenoTran 139 1 to beg you to show you these books. I want to get away 2 from the main part of my brief and just talk about the 3 heart of it, and these five books talk about the heart 4 of my brief. 5 587 The CBC is a foundation mark and a 6 key, a key basis for any democracy that's still left in 7 Canada. That's why. 8 588 David Suzuki is the second man I have 9 met in the last five years who told me personally that 10 the world systems of forests and soil and management 11 are gradually self-destructing and it will start to 12 show up within five years. But the same thing that is 13 destroying the forests and destroying the fisheries and 14 destroying the land, poisoning mother's milk in the 15 Antarctic, is the thing that's poisoning the minds of 16 people with commercial television. This nice gentleman 17 described the exquisite beauty of the United States' 18 commercial television, and the alternative is the CBC. 19 589 I just want to remind you how 20 important that is. 21 590 Here is another little book "The 22 Poverty of Affluence", an examination of the emptiness, 23 the emptiness of the heart and the souls of people in a 24 society where their whole society is talking about 25 selfishness and greed, as you mentioned, hate of your StenoTran 140 1 neighbours, hate of your strange neighbours, and the 2 CBC has been nurturing this nation. 3 591 I sat down with somebody the other 4 day and they just spent six years in the forests of 5 Burma fighting against a dictatorship. I had to answer 6 the lady from Indonesia who left the dictatorship in 7 Indonesia 20 years ago and now her dictator friend's 8 son is a friend of Jean Chrétien. Just a little tiny 9 story. 10 592 And the last radical -- 11 593 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Emberley -- 12 594 MR. EMBERLEY: My last comment. 13 595 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. If you can 14 just summarize now. Thank you. 15 596 MR. EMBERLEY: Yes. My last 16 sentence. 17 597 This book is the story about the 18 radical university students that drove Ronald Reagan 19 crazy and changed Ronald Reagan into a fanatic. But 20 this book says that 90 per cent of the students that 21 were involved in the upsets in Berkeley, California 22 were students who had completed two or three and four 23 years of their studies, had come from all over the 24 United States to be in the most progressive university 25 in the whole of the United States and were the best StenoTran 141 1 students and the best intellectuals in the whole 2 student body, and they were the leaders of the riots 3 fighting for democracy. Incredible. Incredible. Like 4 some of the people that appear at your CRTC hearings. 5 598 We want to thank you for coming and 6 thank you for taking the time to listen to us. I beg 7 you to accept some documents which will give you, some 8 information to confirm, I hope, that you have a mandate 9 from God as well as from the government to look after 10 our CBC for the good of the Canadian people. 11 599 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Emberley, thank 12 you very much. 13 600 No problem with you providing us with 14 documents. 15 --- Applause / Applaudissement 16 601 MS PINSKY: Mr. Ed Bachewich, please. 17 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 18 602 MR. BACHEWICH: Yes. My name is 19 Ed Bachewich. I have been thinking about this 20 presentation that I keep listening on the CBC, but I 21 kept putting it off and kept putting it off. I decided 22 that I would attend to see what the other people were 23 talking about. Since there is a few moments left, I 24 would like to take that time. 25 603 Thank you very much for coming to StenoTran 142 1 Winnipeg and entertaining us. 2 604 I have had withdrawals for the last 3 two weeks. I had been trying to find some place to 4 listen to because right now the CBC is in a strike 5 position and with a lot of repeats. I really enjoy the 6 Vinyl Cafe and I don't mind if I listen to it 25 times 7 because I listen to it on Sunday and Saturday, even if 8 I hear it twice, and there are some that I did miss, so 9 I don't mind listening to a repeat the second time. 10 605 What I don't like listening to is a 11 commercial radio that they have every place else. 12 There is nothing out there. There is crap out there. 13 606 I turn on some stations and I get a 14 headache in about two minutes, and you know what kind 15 of stations I'm listening to at that time, some of 16 those rock stations. They do not cover local artists. 17 They do not cover Canadian artists. 18 607 I think what we should have here at 19 all these hearings is local artists, local musicians, 20 local authors appearing and asking the Commission to 21 support the CBC. These people would not get exposed in 22 the world if they did not have the CBC. Where would 23 the Crash Test Dummies be without the CBC? They would 24 still be playing some place in Ontario. These people 25 get exposed by the fantastic organization that we have StenoTran 143 1 across the provinces. 2 608 As Mr. Schulz mentioned in regards to 3 advertising, I pay for every one of those stations 4 on -- the commercial stations. I pay for every one. I 5 have phoned them several times and I have told them 6 every time you hear them say, "Well, let's dump the 7 CBC. It's costing us 10 cents a day." I don't care if 8 it costs me 10 cents a day. It is more likely costing 9 me more than 10 cents a day for all the advertising 10 that I pay for, as Mr. Schulz mentioned, I pay for 11 through buying products in the marketplace. That's 12 fine, I pay for that, and I would like them to realize 13 that I would like to pay for CBC through my tax. 14 609 What I think that we want to impress 15 on the Commission is that we need a policy in this 16 country for funding of the CBC, one that does not 17 just -- "Well, today I am not happy with Mr. Terry and 18 I will cut the CBC and I will cut the governor or I 19 will cut their funding because I don't like what Terry 20 said in B.C. because he might have been telling the 21 truth." I want this to be a separate private arm of 22 the government, that they cannot interfere at every 23 whim because they don't like what is going on. 24 610 One thing that I do regret is that we 25 do not have enough local programming. Local news. I'm StenoTran 144 1 talking about sports news activities. I have to say to 2 the CBC in the morning I have to turn off and turn to 3 1150 Steinbach so I can get news of the sports that are 4 happening in the community. There is no place else you 5 can get it, so I do turn to Steinbach to get the sports 6 news and activities of school sports, community sports, 7 et cetera. I would like to see more community 8 involvement, community news. 9 611 Somebody mentioned earlier about the 10 problems that their programs, music, theatre was not 11 getting on the air. That's not the fault of the CBC. 12 Don't blame the CBC for that. The CBC has been cut 13 back in funding left and right. The CBC used to attend 14 the Winnipeg Folk Festival regularly. They don't any 15 more because they have been cut back. They used to 16 attend other festivals, other activities in the 17 community with films, et cetera. They have been cut 18 back. They can't attend that as often. 19 612 It's not because the CBC doesn't want 20 to. It's because they can't. 21 613 I also regret the loss of some radio 22 personalities, but CRTC can't help with that. Some of 23 them die; some of them retire. I'm talking about 24 Max Ferguson, the gentleman we used to have on from 25 Toronto that just passed away, with his lovely record StenoTran 145 1 collection. 2 614 One place that I do get world news 3 and world information -- that's Clyde Gilmor -- world 4 news and world information and discussion about the 5 world news and world information from different 6 viewpoints is the CBC. That happens no place else. 7 615 I have two children and they have 8 been brought up on CBC, as I was brought up, living up 9 north and some places that was the only station you 10 could get, and they do listen to CBC, and they have an 11 eclectic taste of music. They still listen to their 12 rock music or whatever, but they have an eclectic taste 13 of music. That's only because of the CBC. That's the 14 only place you can get it. 15 616 We need the programs that the CBC 16 provides for intelligent discussion, Ideas, As It 17 Happens, I could go on. Those of you who are here know 18 all those programs. I listen to the CBC, oh, some 19 place at five o'clock in the morning until 10:00, 11:00 20 and then I go to sleep and get up at two o'clock and I 21 listen to the CBC because they provide some excellent, 22 excellent radio from across the ocean. Excellent. 23 617 Again, CBC provides the opportunity 24 for our artists, our musicians. They should be here. 25 Don't sell the CBC. Don't have them do the cutbacks on StenoTran 146 1 it. If anything, we should expand it. This is on CBC 2 radio. 3 618 Because of the style that I live, I 4 spend very little time on CBC television, but the 5 programs that I do watch are excellent. The programs I 6 have mentioned, Suzuki, and all of those programs about 7 Canada and what is happening in the world, those are 8 excellent programs. So I wouldn't want to see that 9 cut. 10 619 I mean, you can get X-Files, you can 11 get all the wrestling that you want every place else. 12 Let's not go that way. Let's provide more of the 13 Canadian programs, what's produced in Canada. Then 14 these people could put in their films, their movies, 15 their shows that they put together in Canada on the 16 CBC. That's what the CBC should be providing. 17 620 What they have to realize is that 18 they can't be everything to everybody. They have to 19 pick an audience. I know on Saturday now they have 20 gone to a new programming on the AM to try to bring the 21 younger people in. It's DNTO, Definitely Not The 22 Opera. I enjoy it, but sometimes I get kind of bored 23 of it, and thank goodness there is Radio Two. 24 621 So I will thank you for your time and 25 that's all I have to say. StenoTran 147 1 622 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 2 Mr. Bachewich. 3 623 We now come to the end of the -- 4 624 MR. EMBERLEY: Madam Chairman, may I 5 read Bob Clegg's (ph) one-page brief when you -- 6 625 THE CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear you. 7 I'm sorry? 8 626 MR. EMBERLEY: May I read Bob Clegg's 9 one-page speech that I was assigned to read because he 10 cannot be here because of his bad voice? The lady at 11 the desk said that you would -- 12 627 THE CHAIRPERSON: The problem is, 13 now, after we finish the presentations, the CBC and 14 individuals from CBC are entitled to provide us with 15 their comments. We are supposed to be finished at 16 five, so could you be very brief, Mr. Emberley, please. 17 628 MR. EMBERLEY: May I submit this in 18 writing? 19 629 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, surely. Yes. 20 No problem at all. 21 630 MR. EMBERLEY: Thank you. 22 631 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you don't want 23 to read it, then? 24 632 MR. EMBERLEY: No. I don't think 25 that's fair to you. StenoTran 148 1 633 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 2 634 What I was proposing is we would 3 have, say, a break for 10-15 minutes and then we will 4 have these fine officials from CBC to provide us with 5 their response. 6 --- Short recess at 1651 / Courte suspension à 1651 7 --- Upon resuming at 1703 / Reprise à 1703 8 635 THE CHAIRPERSON: We now have someone 9 from the CBC to provide us with their reply. 10 Mr. John Bertrand. 11 636 MR. BERTRAND: Thank you very much, 12 Commissioner. 13 637 My name is John Bertrand. I'm the 14 Director of Radio for CBC Manitoba. 15 638 Commissioner Cram, on behalf of 16 everyone at CBC and CBC Manitoba, I want to thank you 17 for the opportunity to be part of these public 18 consultations because it is really very important. I 19 was sitting there frantically taking down notes and 20 listening to people. It is very important to be here, 21 to listen to people, to hear their concerns, their 22 interests. 23 639 Most of all, as I sat there, and I 24 think you could feel it throughout the room, as person 25 after person came up, their sense of passion, their StenoTran 149 1 passion about the CBC, the amount that they are engaged 2 in this process, and how much they care about the 3 future of the CBC, of radio, television, all of it. As 4 I say, I was struck. I kept writing down the word 5 "passion". People brought it up. The presenters 6 brought it up, and I was quite moved by it. You 7 couldn't help but be moved, I think, by people like 8 Ann Pedersen and Valerie Wadepool and Brian McLeod, 9 person after person. I think it was again very 10 passionate and very moving. 11 640 We will certainly endeavour to, in 12 writing, get back to all of the people who took the 13 time to present here today and talk more to them about 14 the things that they care about in terms of the CBC. I 15 do thank the people for taking time out of their busy 16 day to be a part of this and to speak to this very 17 important issue. 18 641 There is no doubt that today's 19 presentations have raised a lot of points that are 20 worth further discussion and we will be pleased to 21 follow up with this during the licence renewal 22 hearings. 23 642 As I say, we have numerous people -- 24 I'm the spokesperson I guess for CBC, but we have 25 numerous people. You know that Jane Chalmers, my StenoTran 150 1 counterpart, the Regional Director of Television, 2 couldn't be here, she is in B.C. on an urgent family 3 matter, but regional television is represented here 4 today by Carl Karp. He is the Programming Director for 5 programming for CBC television in Manitoba and 6 Saskatchewan. We are represented by people from 7 Radio-Canada. René Fontaine is the Director of 8 Radio-Canada in the prairies; Lionel Bonneville is the 9 Director of Television for Radio-Canada throughout the 10 west. Again, people who are part of these hearings. 11 643 There has been some dancing about 12 because you know there are parallel hearings, but I 13 have to tell you that, as I say, the word "passion" and 14 the sense of commitment that we heard today was 15 extremely moving. Again, we thank you very much for 16 allowing us to be part of this process. 17 644 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 18 Mr. Bertrand. 19 645 MR. BERTRAND: Thank you. 20 646 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now apparently the 21 room is being rearranged and we will reconvene at 22 six o'clock. Commissioner Wylie and myself will both 23 be here. 24 647 Thank you very much, everybody. 25 648 MS PINSKY: Actually -- sorry -- we StenoTran 151 1 are not going to be combining the rooms apparently -- 2 649 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, we are not? 3 650 MS PINSKY: -- because it may take 4 too long, so if you wouldn't mind going into the next 5 room where we do have the translation services 6 available, that is where we will continue at 7 six o'clock. 8 --- Recess at 1706 / Suspension à 1706 9 --- Upon resuming at / Reprise à 1800 10 651 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good day, ladies 11 and gentlemen, and welcome to this public consultation 12 on the CBC. 13 652 Bonjour mesdames et messieurs. 14 Bienvenue à cette consultation publique. 15 653 My name is Barbara Cram and I am on 16 the CRTC. On my left is Madame Andrée Wylie, the 17 CRTC's Vice-Chair of Broadcasting. 18 654 Mon nom est Barbara Cram et à ma 19 gauche est Andrée Wylie. We are both on the CRTC. 20 655 We are here to gather your views and 21 comments on CBC radio and television. In your opinion, 22 how should the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation fulfil 23 its role in the coming years. 24 656 The CBC is a national public service, 25 broadcasting in English as well as in French. It plays StenoTran 152 1 an important role in the Canadian Broadcasting system. 2 Today many elements are constantly being added to the 3 broadcasting system as new technologies multiply, 4 converge, open up new horizons, and increasingly offer 5 new services. 6 657 In this context, we want to know what 7 are your needs and expectations as viewers and 8 listeners of the CBC. 9 658 Given that, it is very important that 10 the Commission hears what you have to say. We must not 11 lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public 12 organization that serves Canadian citizens. In this 13 capacity, we are responsible to you. This is why my 14 fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to come 15 and meet with you to discuss those issues, and why we 16 are holding this series of regional consultations from 17 one end of the country to the other in 11 cities, 18 starting today until the 18th of March. 19 659 Ces consultations vous donnent 20 l'occasion de nous faire part de vos opinions sur le 21 rôle de Radio-Canada, le genre d'émissions qu'il vous 22 propose et l'orientation qu'il devrait se donner à 23 l'aube du nouveau millénaire -- je m'excuse -- aussi 24 bien la partie nationale que les parties régionales et 25 locales. StenoTran 153 1 660 Ces consultations se font dans 2 l'esprit d'établir avec vous un dialogue ouvert et 3 d'être à l'écoute de vos préoccupations. Tous vos 4 commentaires feront partie du dossier public et seront 5 ajoutés à celui de l'audience publique qui s'ouvrira à 6 Hull le 25 mai prochain. 7 661 At the upcoming hearing in Hull on 8 May 25 the Commission will examine the CBC's 9 application for the renewal of its licences, including 10 radio, television and its specialty services Newsworld 11 and Réseau de l'information. 12 662 You can also take part in that public 13 hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 14 If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the 15 specific licence renewals being examined when you file 16 your comments. 17 663 Now I would like to come back to 18 today's consultations. Please allow me to introduce 19 the CRTC staff who will be assisting us today. 20 664 Rod Lahay is from our Broadcasting 21 Planning Services, Mr. Gary Krushen is the Director of 22 our Winnipeg Regional Office, and Carolyn Pinsky is our 23 Legal Advisor. Please feel free to call on them with 24 any questions you might have about the process today or 25 any other matter. StenoTran 154 1 665 So that you will all have the 2 opportunity to speak, we ask that you please limit your 3 presentations to 10 minutes, as these consultations are 4 a forum designed especially for you and we want to 5 listen to as many participants as possible. We will 6 not ask any questions unless we need clarification. 7 666 At the end of this session, 8 representatives from the local CBC stations will have a 9 chance to offer their views, as they are naturally very 10 interested in the issues we are discussing here today. 11 667 Before we start, I would like to ask 12 our legal counsel to go over some of the housekeeping 13 matters regarding the content of this consultation. 14 668 MS PINSKY: Just to explain a bit of 15 the process to the people who will be presenting today, 16 the Secretary will call approximately 10 presenters at 17 a time. When he does so, if you would step up and come 18 to the table. The Secretary will then, in turn, call 19 each presenter individually. 20 669 When you are called, please make sure 21 that your microphone is turned on so that the court 22 reporter can transcribe properly. 23 670 We have translation services 24 available today, and for those who are present but who 25 don't wish to make a presentation, we do have forms StenoTran 155 1 that you can fill out if you wish to leave some written 2 comments with the Commission, and they will be put on 3 the public file. 4 671 Thank you. 5 1805 6 672 MR. KRUSHEN: I would now like to 7 call the first group of presenters: Garnet Angeconeb, 8 Ross Madder, Dave Walley, Tirzah Sharpe, Tim Watts, 9 Rita Menzies, Edward Hiebert, Derek Dabee, Tom Toothier 10 and Jeff Brennan. Would you please come forward. 11 --- Short pause / Courte pause 12 673 MR. KRUSHEN: Mr. Angeconeb, you can 13 commence when you are ready. 14 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 15 674 MR. ANGECONEB: Thank you very much. 16 675 Members of the Canadian-Radio 17 Television and Telecommunications Commission, ladies 18 and gentlemen, my name is Garnet Angeconeb, I am a 19 First Nations person from Sioux Lookout in northwestern 20 Ontario. I am a member of the Lac Seul First Nation, 21 an aboriginal community near Sioux Lookout. 22 676 I appear before you today in my 23 capacity as Executive Director of Wawatay Native 24 Communication Society. I am honoured to make this 25 short presentation to the CRTC's public consultation on StenoTran 156 1 the CBC. 2 677 You may be wondering why a northern 3 Ontario-based entity is making its presentation here in 4 Manitoba. Well, for us living in Sioux Lookout, 5 Ontario it is so much easier to drive six hours to get 6 to Winnipeg than it is to drive 16 hours to get to 7 Sudbury, the next nearest location of these 8 consultation meetings. Besides, I like the snow here. 9 678 First let me talk about the 10 organization that I represent here today. Wawatay is a 11 First Nations communications organization which works 12 in northern Ontario serving an area commonly referred 13 to as the Nishnawbe-Aski Nation. 14 679 Within the Nishnawbe-Aski Nation, or 15 NAN, lies some 48 First Nation Cree and Ojibway 16 communities. The majority of these communities are 17 accessible only by air. 18 680 The NAN territory covers a huge tract 19 of land from the Manitoba border in the west to the 20 Quebec border in the east, and generally north of the 21 50th parallel. That area that I talk about is 22 approximately the size of France. The population of 23 these 48 communities vary in size from 100 to 1,700. 24 681 This year marks the 25th anniversary 25 of Wawatay. Since our humble beginnings publishing a StenoTran 157 1 newsletter and operating an HF radio system, Wawatay 2 has grown into a modern multi-media organization whose 3 services include radio, television and print. We 4 publish a trilingual publication called the Wawatay 5 News in the Ojibway, Cree and English languages. 6 682 Wawatay also broadcasts regional 7 native language television and radio programs to most 8 of the communities in NAN. The Wawatay Radio Network 9 is carried by ExpressVu through an arrangement good 10 working relationship with TVOntario. The Wawatay Radio 11 Network reaches 39 Nishnawbe-Aski Nation communities. 12 683 In regards to television, native 13 language programs are broadcast each Sunday by 14 accessing the Ontario Legislative Assembly channel 15 during its down time. Wawatay's native language 16 television programming is received throughout the NAN 17 communities, including through cable systems in the 18 Province of Ontario. 19 684 Wawatay has witnessed many 20 communication developments and other positive changes 21 in our part of the world over the last 25 years, from 22 using a hand-driven Gestetner ditto machine for 23 printing the Wawatay News, to using the Second World 24 War communications technology called high frequency 25 radios, to the introduction of computerized newspaper StenoTran 158 1 production and the introduction of basic telephone 2 services and from the development of community radio 3 stations to the development of First Nations regional 4 radio and television services and the limited 5 introduction of the Internet service in some 6 communities. Wawatay also watched the introduction of 7 television service to the remote north, starting with 8 television stations beamed by satellite from the U.S. 9 to the introduction of Canadian television services 10 such as the CBC and TVOntario. 11 685 Our mandate is to protect and enhance 12 indigenous languages and cultures of the Nishnawbe-Aski 13 Nation through the use of appropriate technology. 14 686 Part of our mandate is realized by 15 co-operating and working closely with governments and 16 other interested partners. For example, Wawatay has 17 worked closely with the federal Department of Canadian 18 Heritage under the Northern Native Broadcast Access 19 Program in the: 20 "... production and distribution 21 of radio and television 22 programming that meet the 23 cultural, linguistic and 24 information needs of Aboriginal 25 people." StenoTran 159 1 687 Over the years, Wawatay has worked 2 closely with many federal and provincial government 3 agencies and organizations such as Industry Canada, the 4 Ontario Legislative Assembly, TVOntario and the CBC. 5 688 Like the CBC, Wawatay has considered 6 its future position as a public broadcaster: What 7 impacts this has on the programming we produce, and on 8 the relationship we have with our audiences. 9 689 Wawatay has worked to meet its 10 service commitments within an environment of extreme 11 fiscal constraints and fast-paced technological change. 12 690 And, like the CBC, Wawatay has 13 explored, and continues to explore alternative revenue 14 sources with the aim of securing long-term 15 organizational stability. 16 691 I will now respond to the four sets 17 of questions that were asked of these consultation 18 hearings. 19 692 Since the 1974 announcement of the 20 Accelerated Coverage Plan to extend CBC radio and 21 television service to small unserved communities, many 22 of the Nishnawbe-Aski Nation communities have received 23 a patchwork of both CBC radio and television services. 24 Some communities do not receive CBC radio or 25 television. The patchwork of CBC television comes StenoTran 160 1 through various distribution systems, for example CBC 2 North via satellite, through microwave towers, 3 satellite and cable and individual receivers. 4 693 Under the 1974 ACP only those 5 communities with a population base of 500 people were 6 eligible to receive CBC radio and television services, 7 which left out the majority of our First Nations. For 8 example, on the western side of NAN this meant only a 9 handful of communities received CBC service: Big Trout 10 Lake, Fort Hope, Sandy Lake, Osnaburg and Pikangikum. 11 Although the intent of the ACP was good, it still did 12 not provide CBC radio and television services to most 13 NAN communities and, to a certain degree, some northern 14 isolated communities still do not receive basic 15 Canadian radio and television services, that is the 16 CBC. 17 694 Over the years, however, through 18 other satellite technologies, some smaller NAN 19 communities and households have managed to beam in some 20 kind of CBC television service. 21 695 Within NAN the CBC has not fully 22 provided its services, and therefore has not fulfilled 23 its role as a public broadcaster. The federal 24 government, together with the CBC, must ensure the 25 essential Canadian broadcast services of the CBC are StenoTran 161 1 received in every household of the Nishnawbe-Aski 2 Nation before the turn of the century. 3 696 Limited access to basic CBC service 4 in our communities means that our communities -- our 5 concerns, tragedies and celebrations -- are virtually 6 unknown to Canadians nationally and regionally. 7 697 A few years ago Wawatay carried the 8 CBC radio feed when the Wawatay Radio Network was not 9 on the air. This allowed those smaller communities to 10 receive CBC radio who would not have received it 11 otherwise. This is no longer the case, and so many of 12 the NAN communities do not receive CBC service of any 13 kind. 14 698 For those communities on the western 15 side of the Nishnawbe-Aski Nation that receive CBC 16 radio, Thunder Bay CBC provides a weekly one hour 17 aboriginal language show. This radio show, called 18 Anishinabie Wingwan, has been on the air since the 19 mid-1970s. The CBC used to carry a special budget for 20 this program. However, because of financial cuts, 21 Anishinabie Wingwan is now immersed into the main CBC 22 Thunder Bay operational budget and so the CBC does not 23 have a special budget for aboriginal radio programming, 24 as it did once. CBC Sudbury, which serves a 25 significant aboriginal population in northeastern StenoTran 162 1 Ontario, does not produce or broadcast any aboriginal 2 language programming. They should, and they must. 3 699 In regions where there is a 4 significant aboriginal population, the CBC must play a 5 special role to promote aboriginal language 6 programming, and also to strengthen its aboriginal 7 content and presence in regional English language 8 programming. This would not only strengthen its 9 programming, but would also complement existing 10 aboriginal programming. For example, the CBC Thunder 11 Bay region does not cover the same area as the Wawatay 12 Radio Network. The CBC Thunder Bay coverage area 13 includes aboriginal communities along the north shore 14 of Lake Superior, the Kenora and For Frances regions 15 and the southern parts of northwestern Ontario which 16 are not served by our Wawatay Radio Network. 17 700 CBC radio must also promote a 18 national and, wherever possible, a regional aboriginal 19 issues show. Perhaps it is time to reinstate Our 20 Native Land or replace it with something similar. 21 701 In conclusion, then, Wawatay treats 22 communications as a cultural industry. Aboriginal 23 access to communications media has given the Cree and 24 Ojibway people of northern Ontario new opportunities to 25 learn about each other, to participate economically, StenoTran 163 1 and to interact with a Canadian culture that surrounds, 2 yet rarely penetrates our daily lives. 3 702 As aboriginal people living in remote 4 northern Ontario, and indeed in remote Canada, the 5 social, cultural and geographic distances which have 6 for so long separated aboriginal and non-aboriginals 7 will only be lengthened if the CBC retreats from its 8 commitment to serve all Canadians. 9 703 The work of the CRTC is very 10 important. I know the work you are doing will allow 11 communications systems to bring people together, like 12 Canadians talking to Canadians. It is our view that 13 aboriginal and national broadcasters will contribute 14 most if we complement each others work and share our 15 national resources. 16 704 I thank you very much for listening 17 to me. 18 705 Meegwetch! 19 --- Applause / Applaudissement 20 706 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 21 Mr. Angeconeb. 22 707 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Commissioner 23 Cram. 24 708 I would now like to call Mr. Ross 25 Madder. Is Mr. Madder in the room? I don't believe StenoTran 164 1 so. No. 2 1817 3 709 Then we will move on to Mr. Dave 4 Walley. 5 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 6 710 MR. WALLEY: Hello. I think the CBC 7 is doing an absolutely abysmal job in the third area 8 that it has license to operate in. 9 711 Because I don't think anybody else in 10 this room is probably aware of this third area I would 11 like to start with what I am calling Information 12 Industry Bingo. It's a chart that along the top has 13 publishing, broadcasting and interacting. Along the 14 side, text, audio, video and data. I would like to 15 fill in and demonstrate just exactly what is missing 16 from this picture. 17 712 I would start with publishing text as 18 the oldest information industry. It started with 19 Guttenberg when they started to publish books. 20 713 Publishing audio you can think of as 21 records -- these days we would call them CDs. Records 22 is fine with me. 23 714 You can also publish video, you can 24 produce video tapes for rental or for sale. So I would 25 just call that videos. And nowadays you can publish StenoTran 165 1 data, which is the other use for CD-ROM. Retail 2 software is the only word I can come up with for it. 3 715 So you can fill in this entire column 4 of the four different types of data. 5 716 You can do a similar thing for 6 interactivity. If you want to interact with text, you 7 send mail. So the post office would fill in that 8 information industry square. 9 717 If you would like to interact with 10 audio, you use the telephone. 11 718 I'm going to skip over this square 12 for just one second. 13 719 If you take a look at broadcasting, 14 you can broadcast text, and it has actually been going 15 on for many decades. The newspaper is something closer 16 to broadcasting than if you were publishing books, but 17 it's not really all the way there, so I might put it 18 somewhere on the borderline. The difference between 19 publishing and broadcasting is that in broadcasting you 20 are trying to get information quickly, and you are 21 trying to get it out to as many people as you possibly 22 can, as cheaply as you possibly can, and newspapers go 23 a distance to doing that. 24 720 The first real text broadcasting, 25 though, occurred with the invention of the stock StenoTran 166 1 ticker, and it has been around for decades. It's maybe 2 not quite as used these days because you can use the 3 Internet now -- which is in another square -- but if I 4 can fill that in for now as the stock ticker machine. 5 721 If you look at broadcasting audio, 6 that would be radio, and is the subject of what we are 7 talking about today. 8 722 If you broadcast video you would call 9 that television. 10 723 Then I would like to return to this 11 square over here which is interactive video. It has 12 been talked about for many decades. It has been 13 variously called the videophone or teleconferencing, 14 and it is beginning to catch on now because of the 15 industry in this square, and that is the Internet. 16 724 It is important to note that data 17 includes all of these. If you can deal with data you 18 can also send video, audio or text, and so the 19 videophone is really contained within its neighbour, 20 the Internet. So the Internet is now starting to take 21 over that job. 22 725 But I did notice an ad on television 23 the other night for the videophone. It's making a big 24 comeback after a couple of decades of not being used. 25 I think it wasn't used because people don't want to StenoTran 167 1 answer the videophone on a bad hair day, but other than 2 that I think it's maybe starting to come into its own. 3 726 The interesting thing that I see here 4 is that there is a missing square. Data broadcasting. 5 I would challenge anybody to give me an example of data 6 broadcasting that is going on today. The closest that 7 you could come is an Internet technology called "Push", 8 and it, like the newspaper, sits on the line. It's not 9 true data broadcasting. The difference between 10 interactivity and broadcasting is interactivity is 11 two-way and broadcasting is one-way. Broadcasting to 12 one person costs the exact same amount as broadcasting 13 to a million people. So if you are a broadcaster, you 14 want as many people to tune in as possible. 15 727 "Push" gets halfway there. If you 16 can get a million times increase in efficiency with 17 data broadcasting, "Push" gives you about 1,000 times 18 increase in efficiency. A thousand times increase in 19 efficiency is not bad, but it's only part way there. 20 728 So the question is: Why is that 21 blank? 22 729 The second question, I guess, is: 23 What would you put in that square if you could? I can 24 think of a number of things that I would put in that 25 square. First of all, I would broadcast popular data StenoTran 168 1 about Canada to Canadians. 2 730 What is popular? Well, it's all the 3 stuff you can't broadcast on the Internet because it 4 bogs down when you get too many hits. If you have a 5 popular web site it will bankrupt you, because you 6 can't afford the servers. An example of this, the last 7 example I can think of, is the dancing baby. Whoever 8 invented that and put it on the Internet could not keep 9 up with demand. The Mars probe was another example. 10 NASA had to spend millions of dollars -- and in fact 11 did come up with several millions of dollars in the 12 course of a couple of days -- to buy enough computers 13 to satisfy, or try to satisfy the demand for pictures 14 from Mars, and they simply couldn't do it. 15 731 To data broadcast that information 16 would be simple. To send information to one person 17 would cost exactly the same amount to send it to a 18 million people if you broadcast it. The same way as 19 television. When you have a television program you 20 want as many people to tune in as possible because it 21 doesn't cost you anything if they do. When they turn 22 their TVs on or off, you don't notice. On the 23 Internet, when you get a hit you notice it. The 24 Internet is not free, it costs about 10 cents a hit 25 right now. So every time somebody looks at your web StenoTran 169 1 site, if you are trying to pay for it, it will cost you 2 10 cents every time they take a look. 3 732 So if you are going to have an 4 Internet web site, don't be too popular, because it 5 will sink you. 6 733 But what I would put on a broadcast 7 channel, if I could, I would put the news on. I would 8 try to stem the tide of kids who are tuning out of 9 television and I would broadcast a few games. If 10 possible, I would broadcast games made by Canadians. I 11 would broadcast business directories, which I think is 12 in the economic industry of every business in Canada 13 for people to get information about that business. I 14 would broadcast weather information, I would broadcast 15 satellite maps of the weather as it was happening. I 16 would broadcast job listings. 17 734 It's not going to happen until 18 somebody starts. You can't expect anybody to broadcast 19 anything as long as there are no receivers, and you 20 can't expect anybody to buy a receiver until something 21 is being broadcast. So nothing is going to happen 22 until somebody goes on air. 23 735 The CBC, interestingly enough, has a 24 licence to broadcast digital data, and has had a 25 licence since 1988 when the CRTC allowed them to use StenoTran 170 1 the vertical blanking interval of the television signal 2 and what is called the SCMO of FM radio, an FM radio 3 sideband. They have had that licence for over a decade 4 and have not seen fit to use it. 5 736 I can only guess at what the argument 6 is, but I think it goes something along the lines of: 7 Nobody has receivers so why would we broadcast. Of 8 course, the people who would maybe buy receivers aren't 9 going to buy one because nobody is broadcasting 10 anything. 11 737 They have a licence. They have a 12 licence to broadcast radio, they have a licence to 13 broadcast television, they have a licence to broadcast 14 data, and they have had that licence for over a decade. 15 They could be broadcasting educational data to schools 16 as an alternative to the Internet. Of course they 17 would not broadcast pornography, they would not 18 broadcast hate literature, you could choose the best of 19 the net and broadcast only it. 20 738 For less than $100 a school in the 21 north or in the south could connect up the entire 22 school network to this continuous stream of porn-free 23 data. 24 739 I think people are tearing their hair 25 out these days trying to figure out how to stop StenoTran 171 1 pornography from getting to the schools through the 2 Internet. I'm afraid the technical answer is: You 3 can't. If you make it more difficult for kids to get 4 pornography then the kids who know how to get around 5 all the locks and codes just become the most popular 6 kids in school, because they can break those codes and 7 they can get the pornography to any child who wants it. 8 740 I think this opens up legal liability 9 to the schools for providing pornography to children. 10 I think the solution is easy. Broadcast a porn-free 11 stream of data to the schools for $100 per school. 12 741 A northern school, if they can 13 receive CBC's signals, could also receive this stream 14 of data. 15 742 I think that you could also 16 anticipate that this system could be very helpful in 17 the Y2K crisis. I have heard lots about the Y2K in 18 relation to hydro, and I have heard it in relation to 19 the phone system and everything else, I haven't heard 20 anybody discuss it in terms of the Internet. But as a 21 computer-based system with computers of all makes and 22 models and no control whatsoever, I expect the Internet 23 is going to have its problems. 24 743 THE CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, 25 Mr. Walley. StenoTran 172 1 744 MR. WALLEY: Yes. 2 745 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could you 3 summarize, please? 4 746 MR. WALLEY: Use it or lose it. I 5 think the CRTC should tell the CBC that if they have no 6 use for it they should lose the licence. 7 747 Thank you. 8 1830 9 748 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 10 Mr. Walley. 11 749 Could you call the next presenter. 12 750 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. 13 751 I would now like to call Ms Tirzah 14 Sharpe. 15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 16 752 MS SHARPE: I called when I heard on 17 the radio that this was happening. I didn't really 18 expect to say anything and haven't anything and haven't 19 anything prepared. But the radio is very important to 20 me and I listen to CBC continuously. 21 753 The secondhand stores sell radios for 22 about $5.00 each, and I have one on each floor of my 23 house, including the laundry room. 24 754 I see that you have three questions 25 you would like to address, and so I hope I can say StenoTran 173 1 something relevant to some of them. 2 755 How well does the CBC serve the 3 public on a regional and a national basis? 4 756 All I can speak for is myself, and I 5 am a nurse. I have nothing to do with the 6 communications industry. I simply know what I expect 7 of the CBC and how disturbed I am when I hear stories 8 about how there are cutbacks and I lose some of the 9 programs that I like; and I hear stories that the 10 people in charge, the Board of Governors, are really 11 not into communications or into the fields that I am 12 interested in at all, and that really disturbs me. 13 757 I am in my 60s. I have listened to 14 the radio -- the CBC radio since out in the bush in the 15 '30s we heard Hitler and some really scratchy things 16 over the radio. Then through the '40s we had the 17 plays. I just have really good memories of radio and I 18 depend on it very much. 19 758 I associate heating hot water on the 20 wood stove and doing the laundry on Saturdays with 21 opera, which I would never otherwise have been 22 associated with at all. 23 759 My kids, when they were small in the 24 '60s, always listened -- always were accustomed to 25 having this on the radio, and now my grandkids ride StenoTran 174 1 with me and they know you do not touch the radio in the 2 car -- in grandma's car, because that is the CBC. 3 760 I have a network of friends. As we 4 grow older we stay in touch across the country. The 5 friend -- the best friend in Toronto, who is in a 6 wheelchair, can't get out much, we phone and we compare 7 notes, "Did you hear this on the CBC? Did you hear 8 that? What did you think of so and so?" The young 9 nephew in Surrey, B.C., I speak to him and we have a 10 joke about, you know, did he watch Céline Dion, or 11 whatever her name is, and it's a continuity for us. 12 761 I'm interested in Canada. I really 13 like Canada, the idea of Canada as we grew up with, and 14 I see this threatened in so many ways, and I see this 15 one link across the country which reminds me, and I 16 really fear to grow old without this. That may seem 17 really trivial to you, but I really depend on this 18 radio station. I like to think that it reaches all 19 parts of Canada. 20 762 In the '40s we lived out in the woods 21 and my mother was a school teacher and we would stay up 22 late -- I think it was Friday night, or was it Sunday 23 night -- and hear the Northern Messenger to the North. 24 It was broadcast -- the messages were broadcast from 25 Winnipeg to places right across the north, and we would StenoTran 175 1 look on the map and see where all these places were. 2 Later that was an interest for me, that I nursed in the 3 north, and now I'm still really interested in the 4 aboriginal parts of our country, and I like to think 5 that we could see their celebrations and their 6 tragedies and, you know, their goings on, and that they 7 could be part of our community as well. 8 763 I pay my taxes. I think this is a 9 really legitimate use for my taxes. I get really angry 10 when I see that I still pay taxes, as much as ever or 11 more, and the things that I value are going, and one of 12 them is the CBC. They say if you scratch a Winnipeger 13 you find a farmer, it's not so true now, but still 14 those farmers and those northern relatives are still 15 part of our history. I would like to see more farm 16 stuff on the radio. 17 764 Okay. I don't watch the television 18 very much. I watch the television, but the CBC is just 19 another channel. I don't watch very much sports, and I 20 wish they would get out of sports. I wish they would 21 have less American stuff and more Canadian. There's 22 lots of American stuff if I want to watch it. 23 765 I can't think what else I was going 24 to say. Is my time up? 25 766 I like the local news. I really StenoTran 176 1 admire how the radio is managing without the 2 technicians, who are on strike, and the other morning I 3 woke up early -- I get up at 5:30 and I put the radio 4 on and I like to hear the CBC. Anyway, in that early 5 morning spot there was somebody from Ontario, southern 6 Ontario. It made me realize how I really don't care 7 about how many fall suppers there are in Belleville, 8 you know, I want to hear about the fall suppers in 9 Hedingly and Amaranth, and I want to hear the local 10 news as well as the connections with the rest of the 11 country. 12 767 I have to say, if I am to tell about 13 what I expect from the CBC, or what I like about the 14 CBC, I like no advertising. I like one place where I 15 am not pressured to buy something -- 16 --- Applause / Applaudissement 17 768 MS SHARPE: And I know our whole 18 country runs on advertising and marketing, okay, but it 19 is such a relief, and I think helps to keep us sane, to 20 have one place where there is no advertising, and to 21 have a rational viewpoint where we hear objective 22 viewpoints and in-depth reporting. 23 769 Sunday morning is still good, but it 24 used to be better when we had the reporters from around 25 the world. Some of us stay home from church in order StenoTran 177 1 to hear that. No kidding. You know, that's true. 2 Where you can hear what is really happening in Rwanda, 3 not just how many were killed or -- you know, that that 4 is really important. 5 770 I think that's all I have to say. 6 Thank you very much. 7 771 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 8 Ms Sharpe. 9 --- Applause / Applaudissement 10 772 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary? 11 1837 12 773 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. 13 774 I would now like to call Ms Rita 14 Menzies. 15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 16 775 MS MENZIES: Members of the CRTC and 17 ladies and gentlemen, my name is Rita Menzies and I am 18 General Manager of the Manitoba Chamber Orchestra. I 19 am here on behalf of the orchestra to speak to the 20 significance of CBC radio in Canada. 21 776 We have an orchestra that receives 22 rave reviews and plays a significant role in the 23 cultural network here in Winnipeg. We have produced a 24 recording with the Swedish company Veiss (ph). These 25 recordings are distributed around the world. StenoTran 178 1 777 How has this come about? The CBC has 2 given us a national and an international platform. We 3 cannot afford to tour. Without the CBC there is no way 4 a Winnipeg orchestra, so far removed from other 5 centres, could take advantage of its excellence, that 6 is produce recordings and garner Juno nominations. 7 778 Furthermore, CBC brings to Winnipeg 8 music information from around the world. Hence, we do 9 better programming. I cannot imagine the musical life 10 in Winnipeg without the rich national and international 11 network and ancillary recording services provided by 12 the local presence of the CBC. 13 779 Without the CBC the Manitoba Chamber 14 Orchestra would not have produced all of its 15 recordings, would not be established nationally, and 16 probably would not be here 27 years after its 17 inception. 18 780 CBC radio does what no other radio 19 station in Canada does, that is, it records live 20 performances for subsequent broadcast, both regionally, 21 nationally and internationally. 22 781 What does this mean for Canadian solo 23 artists, for Canadian creators, Canadian orchestras and 24 Canadian audiences? 25 782 Number one: Many Canadian artists StenoTran 179 1 with international profiles owe their success to 2 initial exposure on CBC radio, and I give you as an 3 example people like Ben Heppner -- tenor Ben Heppner; 4 pianist John Kamua Parker (ph); pianist Angela Hewitt. 5 783 Number two: The CBC radio provides 6 additional income for musicians in Canadian orchestras. 7 784 Number three: CBC radio makes music 8 performed by Canadian artists available to Canadians of 9 all ages. It is not expensive. All you need to have 10 is a radio. 11 785 Number four: CBC radio presentations 12 reflect the diversity of how events are presented in 13 different parts of the country. It makes us aware of 14 our cultural diversity. 15 786 Number five: Regional programming 16 promotes local musicians and local venues when live 17 performances are broadcast across the country. 18 787 Number six: Live performances on CBC 19 radio ensure the future of Canadian classical 20 repertoire, as the CBC continues to commission new 21 works and as these and other new Canadian works are 22 performed. In this way composers are given an 23 opportunity to have their works heard on a national 24 basis, and the opportunity for, perhaps, 25 rebroadcasting. StenoTran 180 1 788 In conclusion, I would like to say 2 that CBC radio defines how we as Canadians see 3 ourselves and how we are seen by others. The CBC has 4 set high standards in all aspects of the industry, and 5 these are recognized all over the world. 6 789 Canadian culture is unique, as is our 7 Canadian judicial system, our political system, or even 8 our history. There is immense interest in Canadian 9 studies in the universities of other countries, hence 10 the expansion of Canadian studies faculties in so many 11 major American and European universities. Canadian 12 culture is a significant aspect of the programs in 13 these institutions, and CBC radio makes this culture 14 available to the world. 15 790 Thank you. 16 --- Applause / Applaudissement 17 791 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 18 Ms Menzies. 19 1843 20 792 Mr. Secretary. 21 793 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. 22 794 That completes the people who were in 23 the room when I called the first list. However, just 24 so I don't miss anyone, I would like to recall the 25 following names. StenoTran 181 1 795 If you are present in the room now, 2 please come up to the table. 3 796 Ross Madder, Tim Watts, Edward 4 Hiebert, Derek Dabee, Tom Toothier and Jeff Brennan. 5 --- Short pause / Courte pause 6 797 MR. KRUSHEN: You may begin when you 7 are ready. 8 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 9 798 MR. HIEBERT: My apologies. I have 10 just come from another meeting. 11 799 Let me begin by saying that I have a 12 very high value of what the CBC's services are. 13 Primarily the information sources are what I find of 14 the greatest importance, news, the special reports, The 15 Fifth Estate, et cetera. I find them of an extremely 16 high value in comparison to what the other media have 17 available for us. 18 800 So that as a service to Canadians on 19 the basis of what I understand why the CBC was created 20 beforehand -- or why the CBC was created as far as the 21 connecting link within Canada, I think it is a very 22 important institution. 23 801 I want to, however, bring forward, in 24 a sense, two or three concerns as to what I think is 25 limiting or devaluating the services of the CBC StenoTran 182 1 unnecessarily. 2 802 The issues would be, one is the 3 accountability, or the lack of it, especially if 4 listeners have concerns. 5 803 The second is insufficient access to 6 the information that the CBC is reporting on. There is 7 no way of connecting to it. 8 804 The other issue is somewhat related 9 to it. So I will start with the first one. 10 805 On the issue of accountability, I 11 have certainly taken forward, through an extensive 12 number of letters through different departments, and 13 one of them would have been the noon show over a number 14 of years ago, ended up also bringing it forward to the 15 ombudsman, and my perception and feeling in comparison 16 to a legal process, of which I have some -- I'm not a 17 lawyer, I am a layperson but I have some familiarity 18 having been before the Public Utilities Board and also 19 having gone through some courts, I have some 20 understanding of what court -- of what due process is, 21 and it's my perception that when people bring forward 22 complaints to the CBC they are more met with basically 23 the big black box having a certain amount of power and 24 exercising it inappropriately, and just simply because 25 they can control it. StenoTran 183 1 806 I think there needs to be more 2 pressures put on the CBC that they truly be 3 accountable, not only to Parliament but also to the 4 listeners, and to do that in a substantive way and not 5 just inform and claim that they are doing -- even with 6 the ombudsman. Because even in the process of going 7 through before the ombudsman I did not feel that I was 8 getting anything that I would approximate due process. 9 807 This is not the time to go through 10 the complete thing, but my perception was he went 11 through it and made some arbitrary and somewhat early 12 decisions which basically ended up dismissing it, and 13 without having really understood what the issues were. 14 808 I mean that would be the first part. 15 So that on the issues of accountability I think there 16 is a significant amount of ground that needs to be 17 looked at and that the CBC must be held more 18 accountable. 19 809 On the other aspect, and that is on 20 the aspect of information and the access to 21 information, I believe that on the one hand there is 22 excellent information that the CBC is providing with 23 regards to news and the other documentaries, et cetera. 24 However, if that information is only supposed to be an 25 aspect of consumption, that it's nice to hear, et StenoTran 184 1 cetera, that may be one thing. I think, though, as a 2 function of the CBC it must be much deeper than that. 3 It must be a way of providing us access to that 4 information. 5 810 I find more often than not -- let's 6 take the point with regards to commentary which is 7 presented every day during the work day at 8:15. It's 8 an excellent piece. It's only for a few minutes and it 9 provides a phenomenal kind of information, and yet if 10 you want to make contact with those people it is very 11 difficult unless you know who they are. 12 811 I have -- under some circumstances 13 they will pass on more information, but I mean I'm 14 giving you that as one specific example, that I think 15 the listeners ought to be able in a simple method, to 16 be able to contact the CBC and find the point of 17 contact how to get in touch with the organization, if 18 it is a particular organization. If it's an individual 19 who is not part of an organization, I think even there 20 a point of contact should be available if the CBC were 21 to at least take some necessary steps beforehand to see 22 whether or not the person would be open or not. I 23 mean, there are certain things such as the security of 24 the person, confidentiality, privacy and all these 25 issues. You don't want, just because they are being StenoTran 185 1 interviewed either for commentary or the news, et 2 cetera, that doesn't necessarily say that the Canadian 3 public should all have access to them. However, if, on 4 the other hand, the CBC were required to make a kind of 5 a list beforehand, is this person open to receiving 6 contact from the public, yes or no. If they are, then 7 I think if a person from the public wants to have 8 access to that person, the CBC should not be playing an 9 additional role as to whether or not that person should 10 have access. 11 812 I mean, that's my basic argument on 12 these. In pushing forward for this kind of legitimate 13 access, much like the questions of accountability, I do 14 not get good, straightforward answers. Often it's the 15 issue of, for example, the security of the person or 16 the privacy. Well, I have just given you an argument 17 how that issue, if it's really an issue, could be 18 resolved in the largest number of cases, particularly 19 if it is organizations. Because clearly organizations, 20 if they are being in the news or in some other part, 21 would only love further contact, I would imagine, under 22 some respects. 23 813 So I can't see why they would want to 24 refuse it, other than an issue of power, that they are 25 the only ones who can have the access and for the rest StenoTran 186 1 it's only consumption. 2 814 The second point that I have heard 3 from time to time is that even the CRTC, this allows 4 the CBC from doing so. I found that a really big 5 stretch. When Jim Byrd who was still with the CBC at 6 the time, was here in Winnipeg I brought forward some 7 of these suggestions to him and he thought they made an 8 awful lot of sense and was going to move forward on 9 them, but unfortunately he left shortly after. So that 10 was about the most positive step that I had seen 11 forward. They were going to move forward but then he 12 left. But he himself also said that -- I mean, it's a 13 complete crock that the CRTC would have denied the CBC 14 the opportunity of passing on information of that. I 15 mean, I can't really tell whether you have or not, but 16 I mean you would know. But it's these kind of excusive 17 kind of statements that I as one person am getting 18 where I do believe the CBC -- as I said before, it's a 19 fine institution, they have phenomenal information, but 20 as far as empowering the public to get access to that 21 information, or to hold the CBC accountable, on both 22 points I find the CBC far too weak and I would 23 encourage the CRTC to take stronger steps on that. 24 815 That would be my presentation. I 25 thank you for this opportunity and if there are any StenoTran 187 1 questions I would be happy to try to answer them, and 2 if not, that's -- 3 816 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 4 Mr. Hiebert. 5 817 MR. HIEBERT: Thank you. 6 818 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary. 7 819 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. 8 820 I would now like to call the next 9 group of presenters. As I call your name, could you 10 please come up to the table. 11 821 Delaney Earthdancer, Bill Toews, 12 Janis Kaminsky, Maurice Strasfeld and Celine Papillon, 13 Laurie Ankenman, Phyllis Abbe and Mel Christian, Harold 14 Shuster and Al and Dave Mackling. 15 822 Delaney Earthdancer, please. 16 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 17 823 MS EARTHDANCER: Thank you. 18 1851 19 824 I just want to say thank you to the 20 CRTC for giving me this opportunity to give my opinion 21 on CBC. 22 825 Also, I was under the impression that 23 I had 15 minutes and I have been editing like crazy, so 24 I hope I am down to 10 minutes, and I apologize if I am 25 not. StenoTran 188 1 826 The CBC is one of Canada's jewels. I 2 cannot imagine having the love of or pride in Canada 3 that I had without the CBC. Through CBC I learn not 4 only about my country, but about the people in this 5 country and the way they think, sing and live. 6 Canadians are an incredibly unique and diverse people, 7 and CBC is, to me, very much the voice of that 8 uniqueness. 9 827 I have been listening to CBC radio 10 for at least 20 years. I'm actually surprised to say 11 that, but it's true. 12 828 As a young mother I listened to 13 Morningside faithfully. I learned so much about Canada 14 and the people of my country during those years of 15 listening to Morningside. So much of what I value 16 about CBC was epitomized by Morningside, a smorgasbord 17 of Canadian and world literature, music, ideas, humour, 18 critical thought, theatre and opinions, while focusing 19 on the individual lives of Canadians spread throughout 20 this vast country. 21 829 There is no question in my mind that 22 CBC fulfils its role as the national public 23 broadcaster, and that the programming needs to be and 24 is, thankfully, different from that of other 25 broadcasters. It also needs to continue to support StenoTran 189 1 Canadian programming. 2 830 I am almost exclusively a CBC radio 3 listener. I do not watch much TV, so I do not feel I 4 can adequately comment on CBC TV. But what I have seen 5 on CBC TV echoes much of what CBC radio brings to my 6 life. 7 831 I rarely listen to other radio 8 stations because I'm not interested in hourly 9 regurgitation of the same music over and over, 10 accompanied by what is often inane disk jockey chatter. 11 Over the years my listening interest, while continuing 12 to include the morning show, have expanded to include 13 so much of both Radio One and Radio Two. 14 832 Years ago I barely had a sense of 15 Canada existing as a country or as Canadians as a 16 people, but my sense of the uniqueness of Canada and 17 the people in it and the way that we think has become 18 apparent to me by listening to the countless voices of 19 ordinary citizens across the country. Experts, 20 scholars and radicals, authors, playwrights, First 21 Nations people, truck drivers, doctors and housewives, 22 immigrants, farmers and the homeless, francophones, 23 feminists and lawyers. 24 833 I certainly hear comments that I 25 disagree with, yet time and time again I hear people StenoTran 190 1 who think in thoughtful, creative, open-minded and 2 inspiring ways. I hear discussion that gives me hope 3 for this country and that makes me proud to be a 4 Canadian. 5 834 We live in a country that, like any 6 family, has successes worthy of celebrating, failures 7 that are embarrassing, members who are loved or 8 ignored, and problems that seem insurmountable, whereas 9 many families will often bury concerns in a closet, 10 it's my belief that CBC fairly consistently airs issues 11 no matter how troubling. 12 835 It matters to me that I hear 13 discussions and songs and writing that exposes me to 14 Canadian cultures that I know little about. 15 836 It matters to me that I hear 16 intelligent open-minded discussion about serious issues 17 that are important to me. It seems to me that at CBC 18 there is a respect for the diversity of people and 19 opinions. 20 837 A few examples: I was raised on the 21 prairies with a grandfather who despised francophones 22 and a father who had no respect for native indians. 23 Their influence, plus the societal messages that 24 alienates western Canada from Quebec and many white 25 people from aboriginals certainly affected me. I StenoTran 191 1 wanted to learn about these cultures, but how does one 2 cross these bridges? I appreciate that CBC shows me 3 glimpses of these cultures and others, glimpses that 4 inspire in me compassion, curiosity and interest. 5 These glimpses tell me about the people in my country 6 who have been so hidden to me. I hear about them as 7 real people, not aliens I should avoid. 8 838 It matters to me that I hear about 9 the realities of prison life and the justice system as 10 seen by an ex-prison through the journalistic 11 explorations of Rosie Rowbotham. 12 839 It matters to me to hear intelligent 13 discussion about youth crime, just as our governments 14 are making the decision to get tough on youth. 15 840 It matters to me to hear discussion 16 about how poverty, lack of social services and the 17 negative influences of prisons have affects on these 18 people. 19 841 Concerning the discussion of issues 20 hidden in closets, I have been pleased and surprised by 21 the empathic and ongoing discussions about issues 22 surrounding women and about sexism, violence against 23 women and children, and feminism. 24 842 Next is the music. I love the music 25 I hear on CBC radio. I cannot get this variety of StenoTran 192 1 music anywhere else in the radio world. Where else can 2 I hear jazz, blues, classics, the summer folk 3 festivals, the new music festivals, world music? Where 4 else do I get exposure to Québecois musicians? Where 5 else do I get such a large amount of Canadian music? 6 Nowhere that I am aware of, except for the music store. 7 843 CBC offers me so much, interviews 8 with authors. I had never heard of Alice Munro until I 9 heard her on Morningside. Readings of new books and 10 short stories, plays aired. My son is an 18-year-old 11 playwright, and now even he has a chance to have his 12 recent play aired on CBC. 13 844 There are many, many musicians and 14 authors who had their first national exposure on CBC. 15 That matters. I could write a short personal story and 16 possibly have it aired on CBC. 17 845 On CBC I hear full length concerts 18 performed by Canadian symphony orchestras. Over the 19 past month and-a-half I have been to three performances 20 where CBC was recording for national broadcast, twice 21 at the Winnipeg New Music Festival, and once at Rumours 22 Comedy Club. 23 846 As well as Canadian musicians I value 24 hearing music from all over the globe. 25 847 With regards to regional programming, StenoTran 193 1 I do believe that CBC needs to provide good regional 2 programming. I remember a time not that long ago when 3 it was a waste of time listening to CBC to get local 4 news if there was a concern or a blizzard, for example. 5 That improved after the two horrible winters that we 6 had in '95-96 and '96-97. Now if the weather is poor I 7 can count on getting information on the roads or on 8 school closures through CBC. 9 848 It certainly also changed during the 10 flood. I think CBC at that time provided a great deal 11 of support. Although I think we need good regional 12 programming and that there is an adequate amount of 13 time set aside for it, I do not often listen to it. 14 I'm not really sure why, but I actually just don't find 15 it that interesting, and I don't have any answers for 16 that, on why. 17 849 My concerns for CBC have to do with 18 the budget cuts that have been taking place over the 19 past few years, heavy-handed government interventions 20 such as with Terry Milewski and, of course, the strike. 21 I have feared the budget cuts since they first began, 22 but I have not noticed too much change until this past 23 year. Personally, I am tired of governments and 24 organizations that have been so fixated on the 25 financial bottom line that they do not seem to consider StenoTran 194 1 long-term consequences or the lives of the people they 2 affect. 3 850 I am not advocating indiscriminate 4 spending, but there needs to be a balance achieved so 5 that one is not cutting one's own throat to achieve a 6 balanced budget. 7 851 The quality has been reduced and it 8 is irritating. I hear programs more than once, which I 9 don't mind occasionally, but now it happens often, and 10 that was before the struck. 11 852 This morning when Avril or Michael 12 talks to someone from Saskatchewan or Newfoundland, 13 there is now only one regional correspondent available 14 instead of two or three as it was the year before. I 15 can understand that it is less expensive to have one 16 person, but how can I feel I am getting an accurate 17 assessment of the provincial situation when I am 18 hearing only one person's view. 19 853 I felt considerable unease and anger 20 when Terry Milewski was suspended from work because of 21 his APEC investigation. I felt like I was living in 22 another country, one where a dictator rules. In my 23 view, the message was clear: Do not get too close to 24 government misdeeds or to the Prime Minister's office 25 in your investigations. The government funds the CBC StenoTran 195 1 and I do believe that the government should set the 2 standards at CBC based on the ethics of this country, 3 but I do not think the standards should ever include 4 selective reporting and ignoring injustices committed 5 by the government. If we heard of that happening in 6 another country, we would be appalled, and it is 7 appalling when it happens here. 8 854 With regards to the strike, it needs 9 to end. I find it somewhat difficult to be sympathetic 10 of striking workers when my family's income has been 11 cut by a third in the past four years due to 12 downsizing. Yet I value the CBC and I value the work 13 of the people on the front lines at CBC. Obviously 14 these people are skilled technicians considering the 15 reduced quality of programming since the strike began. 16 Now the journalists and hosts are set to strike. These 17 people are very good at what they do. 18 855 I want CBC back and working properly, 19 and I would like management, or whoever it is who is 20 holding the purse strings to get the strike settled. 21 The CBC is far too valuable to this country to lose. 22 856 Thank you for your time. 23 --- Applause / Applaudissement 24 857 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 25 Ms Earthdancer. StenoTran 196 1 858 Mr. Secretary. 2 859 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. 3 860 I would now like to call Mr. Bill 4 Toews. 5 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 6 861 MR. TOEWS: Thank you very much. 7 1901 8 862 I really appreciate having an 9 opportunity to put forward a few views about the CBC 10 here tonight. 11 863 I would just like to compliment the 12 previous presenter. She essentially carried the day in 13 terms of my own views. I could support everything that 14 she said. 15 864 There was a suggestion a few minutes 16 ago by another presenter that if you scratched a 17 farmer's back that one might pop up. Well, one has 18 just popped up. I happen to farm for a living, that is 19 my main occupation, and I would like to present perhaps 20 some views from that perspective, but I don't want to 21 be seen to be presenting it only from an agriculture or 22 farming point of view. 23 865 I happen to have, I guess, come in 24 contact with the CBC from a number of different angles, 25 one of them on the shortwave international service StenoTran 197 1 while we were on an international project. And even 2 though the programming obviously was quite different 3 than what I was used to here, it gave us a contact that 4 was very important for us at that particular time, and 5 I certainly appreciated even -- I guess doubly so, the 6 content of the programming on CBC radio as a result of 7 that. 8 866 The second time we went on another 9 assignment of that nature I made sure I took some of my 10 favourite CBC radio tapes along, just to make sure that 11 I didn't lose that sense of what it meant to be a 12 Canadian. Some of it was related to the music program, 13 some of it related to some of the talk programs and 14 some of to sort of the historical kinds of 15 documentaries. 16 867 I can recall how -- what a wonderful 17 feeling it was being able to walk the halls of 18 St. Thomas Church when they were doing a particularly 19 good series on the Bach Tricentenary, and you could 20 hear -- virtually hear Bach playing the organ while we 21 were out in the prairies of Kenya. 22 868 At any rate, that to me sort of was 23 the starting point of my sincere interest in ensuring 24 that the CBC continue on with the good work it was 25 doing then, and I guess I'm one of those who is also StenoTran 198 1 concerned about what is happening now. 2 869 This issue of funding, I think it's 3 time that we stopped apologizing for spending so-called 4 public money on -- and I think some people like to use 5 the term "subsidizing" broadcasting. As far as I am 6 concerned, this is a very important investment we are 7 making in the country, and currently we are not 8 investing enough in this broadcasting system to allow 9 it to do its job properly. 10 870 Those people who suggest that we need 11 to do everything on a private-funding basis just should 12 ask themselves whether or not they would prefer to be 13 taxed with a private tax or a public tax, because 14 essentially I am obligated to pay for all of the 15 broadcasting that is being done on the private stations 16 and yet I listen to none of it. But every time you go 17 to the shop to purchase anything you know that there is 18 a significant amount of that purchase price is designed 19 to support the private radio. I don't view that 20 particular type of tax any more favourably than I do 21 dipping into the public purse. 22 871 So I would like to put this notion 23 out that this is an investment, this is an investment 24 for Canadians, and that we should stop apologizing for 25 spending money on the public broadcasting system. StenoTran 199 1 872 From a programming point of view, I 2 guess I will separate out radio and television. Some 3 of what I'm -- you know, some of my thoughts have 4 already been put forward. 5 873 But you just look at, you know, the 6 fact that I think the CBC is the only outlet that 7 actually programs in the true sense of the word. You 8 talked about the kind of music programming that we are 9 aware of. I mean, to be able to listen to Holger 10 Petersen on Saturday night doing the blues show and 11 then being able to switch on Shelagh Rogers in the 12 mid-afternoon, or in the morning and listen to 13 Take-Five, you know, picking up Bill Richardson in the 14 afternoon, talking to people from across the country, 15 and the fact is that, you know, our family -- my family 16 members have had an opportunity to be heard across the 17 country because of the opportunity to participate in 18 some of those kinds of programs. It's invaluable. 19 874 As far as television is concerned, I 20 think the CBC has made significant strides in approving 21 the quality of prime time programming because of the 22 kinds of programs that are being aired, and I for one 23 am not interested, and I don't want to spend the extra 24 money on having access to a lot of the other specialty 25 channels, it's not that important, we don't spend that StenoTran 200 1 much time wanting to be entertained with television 2 sources, but the television that does appear on CBC is 3 well worth watching in many cases. I mean, we have 4 programs that are very useful from the point of view of 5 informing the public, whether it's the health show or 6 whether it's, you know, The Fifth Estate or Current 7 Affairs, the Undercurrents program and those kinds of 8 things. I mean, you just don't get that anywhere else. 9 And again, I don't want -- don't think we should be 10 apologizing for the fact that, you know, the public is 11 spending money on that kind of programming. Like I 12 say, it's an investment and it's very valuable. 13 875 I do have some concerns, and I know 14 it's an issue for the CBC, and that is to somehow find 15 the balance in terms of how journalists perform and how 16 they do their work. I don't have an answer for that, 17 but I know that one of the reasons that I do listen to 18 CBC radio and television is to get the best 19 journalistic integrity that's available. And I guess 20 we all have our own impression of what is being 21 truthful and what is not being truthful and we all have 22 our various complaints, but you won't find it any 23 better than the CBC, but that doesn't mean there aren't 24 some ways of -- or they may be some need to improve it. 25 876 I'm not too sure how the CBC can StenoTran 201 1 approach that. To maintain arms length with our 2 government as such, but still maintain the contact with 3 the people and be responsible to the people of this 4 country. 5 877 Finally, I guess, you know, your 6 discussion earlier about Morningside, and specifically 7 Peter Gzowski I guess, and I like to just relate to the 8 fact that the people on CBC radio are family. You 9 know, you become so well acquainted with them, and you 10 become so respectful of who they are and what they do, 11 I just think that I am a little bit concerned about 12 some of the recent programming changes that perhaps 13 some of the programming may be losing the heart with 14 the Canadian flag around it, and I guess that's what I 15 always thought was so important with someone like 16 Gzowski being able to do those programs, is the fact 17 that he truly represented the feelings of a broad range 18 of Canadians, but he didn't do it just from an 19 intellectual point of view, he did it from the heart, 20 and I guess some of us are missing some of that. 21 878 Just one final point, and it's a 22 minor point. I have found too that -- maybe it isn't 23 so minor. 24 879 I have found that being a farmer I of 25 course have an interest in particular of the noon hour StenoTran 202 1 farm broadcast, and I have always found that I have 2 been able to call on an issue and even provide 3 information, maybe provide some seed for a story that 4 they might want to do, and I have found them very open 5 to suggestions. In fact, when we had some recent 6 concerns about some changes in the program, the CBC 7 management was very willing to discuss this issue with 8 the farm policy organization that I belong to, and we 9 found them very open to ideas and to our suggestions 10 and so I have to compliment them on that as well. 11 880 So overall, I just -- I think the 12 programming is being hurt, and I think we somehow have 13 to restore funding so the CBC can do its job properly. 14 881 Thank you very much. 15 --- Applause / Applaudissement 16 882 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 17 Mr. Toews. 18 883 Mr. Secretary. 19 884 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. 20 885 I would now like to call Ms Janis 21 Kaminsky. Is Ms Kaminsky not here? 22 886 MS KAMINSKY: Oh, very much here. 23 887 MR. KRUSHEN: I'm sorry. 24 888 MS KAMINSKY: You should be so lucky 25 that I'm not. StenoTran 203 1 --- Laughter / Rires 2 889 MR. KRUSHEN: My apologies. I just 3 didn't see you. 4 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 5 890 MS KAMINSKY: No, it's okay. I was 6 leaning back, relaxing. 7 1912 8 891 The previous two speakers I think 9 stole part of my thunder, but that's all right, I will 10 reinforce it as firmly as I can. 11 892 I am not, unfortunately, bilingual, 12 so I can't comment on the French CBC, but I think 13 probably the general comments that I have will apply as 14 well as to the English. 15 893 I think it is absolutely essential 16 that we have a strong CBC that can provide the kind of 17 programming for which they have become so famous and 18 have always done so well. These have been mentioned, 19 there are documentaries, news broadcasts, both locally, 20 national and international, comedy and drama. Some of 21 the comedy I guess I don't quite connect with, but then 22 people don't connect with mine either, so it's a 23 two-way street. 24 894 The CBC, both radio and TV is the way 25 that Canadians can develop, present and preserve our StenoTran 204 1 culture and our characteristics. There is a lot of 2 talk these days about a lot of programs in that big, 3 wide wonderful 100 channel job that's coming out there. 4 They won't represent us. I would be very surprised if 5 they do. This is -- the CBC is ours, and it's the glue 6 that is going to hold this country together. 7 895 The international bureaus, which have 8 been cut, unfortunately, some of them, give us our own 9 information on world events in the countries that they 10 are occurring. This is a real necessity in this world 11 that is getting smaller and smaller, and we want trade 12 and we have relatives and friends all over the world. 13 We want to talk to these people. We want to know from 14 somebody of our own what's happening in those 15 countries. 16 896 The national reports will ensure that 17 all Canadians get the important information that 18 applies throughout Canada. Local productions cannot 19 only inform regional areas, but also can be exchanged 20 throughout Canada and teach us about other areas. We 21 should have been seeing Land and Sea in the prairies. 22 The Maritimes, the Atlantic provinces should have 23 probably been seeing some of Sandy Coleman's columns -- 24 programs. Let's get to learn what's happening out 25 there. You know, the north always get forgotten, and StenoTran 205 1 we should know what is happening up in that part of it 2 as well. 3 897 I think all these things must be 4 done, and I think can only be done by a public 5 broadcaster, one for whom profit is not the motivation. 6 And I think this must also be done without political 7 interference. Public funding must not lead to 8 political control. 9 898 I have just been reading recently 10 that perhaps the next head of the CBC will be a Prime 11 Ministerial appointment, and if you will permit me to 12 be blunt, I think that is absolute stupidity. I'm 13 sorry, but that's how it is. That's from my point of 14 view. 15 899 I think the CBC must remain at arms 16 length from any government, I don't care whether it's 17 this one currently or one 20 years ago or the next one 18 down the road. 19 900 The attempts to -- I don't know 20 whether it was deliberate attempts to destroy the CBC 21 by cutting funding. That's more foolishness. We must, 22 I think -- and I hope the CRTC can put some baseball 23 bat clout behind this -- that we have to support this 24 institution that can provide the entertainment and the 25 information for Canadians, and that can also present us StenoTran 206 1 to the rest of the world. We want to hear from the 2 bureaus in other parts of the world. We want them to 3 know about us as well. 4 901 I think that good reporting like that 5 and good communication can only help us and the world 6 situation. 7 902 I have a few comments about the whole 8 business of televising professional sports. I don't 9 think we need so much emphasis on professional sports. 10 I know there is a great deal of talk about Hockey Night 11 In Canada and so on, but when we start getting two 12 hockey games back-to-back on a Saturday night, it's a 13 bit thick. So I really can't buy that. 14 903 In the spring -- and this was 15 somebody commented, and this is the freedom of this 16 country and talking on the CBC. Somebody commented 17 this morning about this business of professional sports 18 and how we get in the spring and in the fall -- the 19 spring with hockey that goes on until June and the fall 20 with baseball -- the whole CBC is disrupted. Programs 21 are shifted around, the news broadcasts are moved all 22 over the place. For what? You know, granted, yes, 23 there is an interest in professional sports, but I 24 happened to save from the 2nd of March in the Winnipeg 25 Free Press an article in the sports section that says StenoTran 207 1 "Americans don't love this game. In the arenas they 2 are watching TV. They are staying away in droves." 3 And we are putting the money out for two games 4 back-to-back on a Saturday night. I'm not so sure 5 that's good. 6 904 I think that we would get a lot more 7 viewers and a lot more interest if we started reporting 8 on some of the local kids that are in sports events. 9 Can you imagine how many families would be glued to the 10 TV set if they thought that their youngster or their 11 relative or their neighbour's kid was going to be on 12 TV? A lot more than the ones that are going to watch a 13 guy that's playing for one team today -- or a woman, 14 because the women are getting into now -- playing for a 15 team one time today and then tomorrow they are the 16 opposition. Have some of the local kids on, some of 17 the local sports. 18 905 I guess since the strike is on and we 19 have to sort of comment on this, I'm sorry that things 20 have been cut so much that this becomes a difficult 21 situation. I think that sometimes I have become 22 complacent about the CBC, but when the strike started 23 and I began to look for my good new programming and 24 informational programming that was on the CBC and it 25 wasn't there because it couldn't be there, I began to StenoTran 208 1 realize. It was a real eye-opener and I thought "I'm 2 missing something." 3 906 The only sort of minor advantage, I 4 suppose, is that a few programs that I had to miss for 5 other reasons are being rerun and I get a chance to see 6 them. But that's not really very helpful. 7 907 Advertising. I think keep CBC radio 8 free of advertising. As far as TV is concerned, if I 9 had my way -- well, if I had my way I guess there 10 wouldn't be any advertising, but I would limit it to 11 five minutes per hour, preferably at the beginning and 12 at the end of the program so that you don't get into 13 all this stuff and then find it's all chopped up. 14 908 This probably will need more public 15 funding if the CBC relies on advertising funding. Well 16 then, okay, that's fine with me. If we have to put in 17 some more money and replace what has been cut and 18 increase the amount to cover the costs of future good 19 programming, then let's have it. 20 909 We need the CBC as a public 21 broadcaster, independent of political pressure to 22 represent Canadians. 23 910 Thank you. 24 --- Applause / Applaudissement 25 911 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, StenoTran 209 1 Ms Kaminsky. 2 912 We will be taking a short break so 3 you can walk around and get out of those chairs. I 4 have about 26 minutes after. If we came back here 5 about 20 to 7:00 -- 20 to 8:00, I'm sorry. 6 --- Short recess at / Courte suspension à 1922 7 --- Upon resuming at / Reprise à 1940 8 913 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. If we can 9 all reassemble. Thank you. 10 914 Mr. Secretary. 11 915 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. 12 916 We are making a slight change to our 13 schedule. 14 917 At this time I would like to call 15 Ms Maxine Hasselriis. 16 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 17 918 MS HASSELRIIS: Thank you. 18 1942 19 919 Ladies and gentlemen, first I must 20 admit I rarely watch any television except news 21 broadcasts or news-related shows. 22 920 Second, for years I have watched 23 CBC TV news shows almost exclusively. I wish to 24 address just one area of CBC broadcasting, its news 25 shows. StenoTran 210 1 921 There is a tremendous difference 2 between CBC news shows and those of CTV, Global and 3 MTN. The last three would be better described as 4 entertainment. They give glib, superficial coverage to 5 news events. They react to events. As well as 6 reacting, the CBC initiates stories. It does 7 investigative reporting and holds to the fire the feet 8 of many newsmakers. I feel involved when I watch the 9 news related by the CBC. I feel like a bystander with 10 a short attention span when I watch the newscasts of 11 other stations. 12 922 We live in an age in which political 13 groups and businesses have learned to manipulate the 14 news. They carefully prepare promotional packages for 15 the media which appear to be news releases but are 16 actually disguised advertising. It is easy and cheap 17 for broadcasters to use this material. It seems to be 18 only the CBC which has the staff and equipment to 19 prepare unbiased material which doesn't use the 20 self-serving material. 21 923 There is an audience for the other 22 stations, however if the CBC news shows disappear those 23 other stations are not satisfactory alternatives for 24 the CBC audience. The amount of regional news on CBC 25 is shrinking, and I fear that not too many years into StenoTran 211 1 the millennium it will have disappeared. At the 2 convenient hour of 10:30 p.m. on weekdays and over the 3 weekends there are no regional CBC TV newscasts. One 4 can turn to the other stations, but they rarely address 5 regional news, just that of the immediate city area, 6 and that given in headline style interspersed with many 7 temperatures, long lists of sports scores and 8 infomercials. 9 924 That regional CBC TV newscasts 10 completely disappear for two days each week is 11 ridiculous if one remembers the CBC is the public 12 broadcaster. For almost one-third of the week one 13 cannot access regional CBC TV newscasts. The Canadian 14 public is still out there and news happens right 15 through the weekend. It seems to me the most important 16 mandate of the public broadcaster is to keep Canadians 17 well informed of regional and national events on a 18 timely basis. 19 925 An excellent example of the lack of 20 timely regional news came last November. Winnipeg 21 hosted the Grey Cup game and its pre-game festivities. 22 The Grey Cup game is a national celebration. On the 23 Friday evening there was a spectacular successful Grey 24 Cup parade. It started immediately after the regional 25 news and was not televised, either regionally or StenoTran 212 1 nationally. Brief coverage of the parade was given on 2 the Saturday afternoon CBC National News. By the 3 following Monday evening, 72 hours after the previous 4 regional CBC newscast, both the parade and game news 5 were stale and not included in the regional news TV 6 show. 7 926 In essence, in Winnipeg we have lost 8 regional CBC TV late-night news. The show, recorded 9 earlier in the evening, airs so late as to be 10 accessible only to insomniacs. The CBC National News 11 is repeated in a time slot which should be available 12 for regional news. We watch The National from 10:00 to 13 11:00 each evening, and then if we want regional news 14 we have to wait until The National repeat ends. We 15 don't wait, we just turn off the set. 16 927 I have just returned from a two-month 17 stay in the U.S., and as a news junkie I was in seventh 18 heaven. As Canada's national broadcaster cuts back the 19 time it gives to newscast, the U.S. stations are 20 increasing it. Every day of the week one could easily 21 learn what was happening regionally and nationally as 22 each station had many regular newscasts. Also, each 23 station seemed to be prepared to cover a story live as 24 it happened, interrupting regular programming. 25 928 I also noticed the co-ordination of StenoTran 213 1 regional and national news shows so that one moved 2 effortlessly from local newscasts into national 3 newscasts and then back into local news. 4 929 That U.S. stations have so many news 5 shows indicates that news shows are both popular and 6 profitable. As we enter the millennium I would like to 7 look forward to more CBC regional news on TV at more 8 appropriate times. 9 930 Thank you. 10 --- Applause / Applaudissement 11 931 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 12 Ms Hasselriis. 13 932 Mr. Secretary. 14 933 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. 15 934 At this point I would like to call 16 Mr. Maurice Strasfeld and Celine Papillon. 17 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 18 935 MR. STRASFELD: Thank you. 19 1945 20 936 I'm going to speak on behalf of my 21 wife and I. 22 937 Before I start, I can't say enough 23 good things about the CBC and I am barely going to 24 touch on the many different aspects of the CBC. The 25 previous speaker speaking about news, this is something StenoTran 214 1 we didn't address at all, but I support her entirely. 2 938 How well does the CBC fulfil it's 3 role as a national public broadcaster? Should this 4 change in the future? 5 939 The CBC fulfils its role as national 6 broadcaster very well for the time being. The endemic 7 cuts and the choosing of politically appointed heads of 8 the CBC to us undermines it. It's longstanding culture 9 of vision and excellence sustains it. There is, 10 however, a limit to how much or how many insults the 11 organism can withstand with impunity. Canadians will 12 be the losers. 13 940 Incipient in the dynamics of 14 employment today is the forced relocation of families. 15 This has given us fractured families where children no 16 longer benefit from the proximity and the wisdom and 17 experience of their elders. Enculteration, sense of 18 history, internalizing the common cord that makes us 19 Canadian, will only happen if we have strong cultural 20 and information institutions. 21 941 Canadian culture is a woven tapestry. 22 CBC, Newsworld, Radio-Canada and RDI provide the 23 warp (ph) which stretches from sea-to-sea. The local 24 programming, along with the national programming, 25 contribute the weft (ph). CBC Radio-Canada is the only StenoTran 215 1 organism that does it right. It is not loud -- the 2 loud, aggressive pseudo-American in-your-face brand of 3 programming. It's more communication than commercial 4 propaganda with all its implications. 5 942 CBC speaks to our minds and our 6 hearts. It doesn't have the voices that attack as 7 commercial ratio does. It's not in your mind -- it's 8 not in your face, but in your mind. 9 943 Radio programs such as Quirks & 10 Quarks, Basic Black, DNTO, This Morning, A Propos, As 11 It Happens; TV shows such as Witness, The Fifth Estate, 12 The Nature of Things, 22 Minutes, and the list just 13 goes on and on. This CBC programming addresses a 14 community and assumes that there is intelligent life 15 out here. There is a coherence to the daily offerings. 16 944 Although we have noticed growing 17 strain as local infrastructure and personnel have 18 diminished, here are a few examples of how CBC 19 Radio-Canada serves us at both regional and national 20 levels. 21 945 CBC has province-wide daily call-in 22 shows. Whenever we have needed a moderator for public 23 forums and public information meetings, our local CBC 24 radio personalities have unselfishly and willingly 25 accepted our requests for their expertise. They have StenoTran 216 1 shown themselves to be well-read and prepared and have 2 enhanced our meetings. 3 946 My wife is a Québecoise, and because 4 of my job she bemoans the fact that we cannot live in 5 Quebec. RDI and Radio-Canada have helped connect her 6 not only to the home province, but have opened up the 7 rest of Canada's French fact. Who knew that there was 8 a vibrant French community in B.C.? My wife, as a past 9 rabble-rouser and rattler of cages in the education 10 field has had occasion to be on CBC radio and 11 television, both in English and French. 12 947 One morning her niece in Quebec City 13 heard an interview with her on the CBC National Radio 14 News. That same morning her sister heard a letter read 15 by Peter Gzowski. At about the same time, her parents 16 saw her interviewed on RDI. The point here is that 17 this is the medium of listening and viewing choice for 18 our family in Quebec, and it's just by chance, or habit 19 of viewing and listening, that her family saw and heard 20 her. What other organism is there in Canada that could 21 bring families so tangibly close? We can say the same 22 thing about Cross Country Checkup with Rex Murphy. 23 948 The floods, the ice storms, these 24 have all become real to us in large part due to the 25 CBC. StenoTran 217 1 949 Should the programming provided by 2 the CBC be different from that provided by other 3 broadcasters? Of course it should. The CBC should 4 educate. We can't abandon the radio and television 5 airwaves to purveyors of mindless pap. There is no 6 reason we cannot raise the lowest common denominator to 7 a higher level rather than allowing the dumbing down of 8 society. 9 950 The CBC is our last line of defence 10 from the Huns and the Visigoths, the barbarians at the 11 gate. One of the great tragedies in Canada today is 12 how we have neglected to teach our children Canadian 13 history. There is no common curriculum in Canada. For 14 math, science or language arts this poses a niggling 15 problem. For history it becomes a crime. Not only 16 have we robbed our children of this right, this 17 heritage, but we have no way of helping our immigrant 18 children to buy into this common cord we should be 19 sharing with them. How can we invite them to our table 20 when we have nothing to offer. 21 951 Amazing as it may seem, our only 22 common articulations of history and purpose reside in 23 this public national broadcaster, from wonderfully 24 produced Quebec series such as Blanche, Les filles de 25 Caleb, Marguerite Vaillant, to the English series Black StenoTran 218 1 Harbour, North of 60, The Beachcombers we start to see 2 and understand our culture and history. Our stories 3 are stories of substance rather than flash. They do 4 not sizzle, they resonate, nurture and strengthen. 5 952 What special role should the CBC play 6 in the presentation of Canadian programming? Well, we 7 would love to see a cross-over of productions. 8 Marguerite Vaillant was a wonderful French series -- 9 which, as far as I know, has not aired in English -- 10 with the parts of the English soldiers played and 11 spoken by English actors. 12 953 Lance et compte -- He Shoots, He 13 Scores -- was done in both languages. North of 60 has 14 been dubbed into French. We love to see series done in 15 a bilingual fashion with the French speaking French and 16 the English speaking English, and subtitles could be 17 included for those who are not bilingual. 18 954 A series done in one language should 19 have a chance to air in the other language. We need to 20 see and hear stories, music and art from all parts of 21 the country. 22 955 My main concern with the CBC is the 23 funding cuts. It's just not what it was. Even so, 24 they are doing amazing things with what little they 25 have. StenoTran 219 1 956 Thank you. 2 957 I have to apologize. We have to go 3 pick up our children at school and we are already late. 4 --- Applause / Applaudissement 5 958 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 6 Mr. Strasfeld. 7 959 Mr. Secretary. 8 960 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. 9 961 I would now like to call Ms Laurie 10 Ankenman. 11 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 12 962 MS ANKENMAN: Good evening, everyone. 13 1953 14 963 I have been a listener of CBC radio, 15 primarily the English radio, for the last 22 years. I 16 have also lived in four major Canadian cities during 17 that time, both in western and eastern Canada, and I 18 had the opportunity to travel to both coasts by car 19 over that time span. 20 964 I chose CBC radio, as I still do, as 21 my primary source of information because, quite simply, 22 it has kept me connected to this country during all 23 those years serving as the national public broadcaster. 24 965 Fulfilling a role such as this in a 25 country as large and diverse as ours is something CBC StenoTran 220 1 staff and management have accomplished with style, 2 professionalism, and a commitment worthy of many 3 accolades. 4 966 Instead of accolades, however, the 5 successive cost-cutting measures and downsizing in 6 recent years has placed the CBC in jeopardy. My 7 increasing concern over the CBC brought me here tonight 8 to reiterate the necessity of CBC as the national 9 public broadcaster, and to support the renewal of its 10 licences by the CRTC. 11 967 So my comments are primarily in 12 reference to CBC radio, because I prefer radio and only 13 occasionally view CBC television. 14 968 The new millennium will bring no 15 fewer stresses, likely much greater ones to CBC to 16 provide objective, in-depth coverage, in which is 17 excels. I do not see any need for CBC radio to fulfil 18 this role of public broadcaster in any significantly 19 different ways in the new millennium, but it cannot 20 continue this fundamental role without adequate federal 21 support. 22 969 I would only caution, actually, that 23 CBC decision-makers on the magnitude of resources that 24 it would consider committing to the high-tech Internet 25 arm of this organization, because radio and television StenoTran 221 1 remain the most accessible avenue to receive news and 2 information for the majority of Canadians. 3 970 So many examples come to mind of the 4 quality of local and regional reporting. The Red River 5 flood of 1997 put CBC radio and television in Winnipeg 6 to the test. Other programming was suspended in order 7 to focus all available resources on a natural crisis of 8 immense proportions that demanded all the attention CBC 9 could possibly devote. This was not only critical for 10 the local community, who mobilized in ways not 11 experienced in decades to assist others in coping with 12 massive losses, but the public broadcasting role of CBC 13 automatically informed the rest of Canada, and we who 14 live here know the response of Canadians all across 15 this country. 16 971 The Saguenay flood, the ice storm 17 last year are two other examples where Canadians came 18 together to assist one another because of CBC radio and 19 television during these large scale human and 20 environmental crises in Canada. 21 972 Public programming on CBC radio is 22 usually viewed as being for the good of our Canadian 23 society, and I can't agree more, and there is little 24 financial return. I know also that the quality of this 25 programming is not found in the private sector which, StenoTran 222 1 by its nature, operates on a profit-basis. Nowhere 2 else can I listen to investigative journalism and a 3 wide array of information, including Canadian history, 4 culture and politics found on not just the local 5 programs but on the national programs like so many of 6 my favourites. Ideas, As It Happens, Quirks & Quarks, 7 Basic Black, The House and, of course, the comedy 8 programs like Double Exposure. 9 973 I cannot imagine my life without 10 these programs to challenge my brain and keep me up to 11 speed on current affairs, cultural affairs and 12 politics, and what the rest of Canada and the world is 13 up to. 14 974 These programs, all of them personal 15 favourites, are unique and should be offered by a 16 public broadcasting system which is not constrained by 17 a profit motive. 18 975 The private broadcasting sector will 19 never be able to provide what the CBC provides: A 20 forum for keeping this country knitted together. 21 Herein lies the strength of the CBC. The wool is the 22 news and the information, the needles are the CBC 23 staff. The needles knit, and I receive, knowing that 24 it is a right and a privilege. 25 976 Because some years back I took an StenoTran 223 1 opportunity of a lifetime to travel to the former 2 Soviet Union. The timing could not have worse, I flew 3 one week following the Chernobyl disaster. During my 4 14-day stay I lived in a news vacuum. An entire nation 5 was in severe crisis as one of the world's worst 6 disasters unfolded, and yet on the English radio 7 programmed for tourists like myself, there was 8 virtually no coverage of any substance. That was 9 really difficult for me, especially being a radiophile 10 that I am. 11 977 So when that two-week period ended 12 and I flew back home, I felt immense relief to have 13 immediate access to CBC radio once again, knowing I 14 could trust its cover and, even more basic, that it was 15 there. 16 978 I have not and never will forget 17 those feelings of a hunger for news and information, 18 especially during a time of massive environmental and 19 human disaster that profoundly impacted not only on 20 that nation but the world as well. 21 979 So in further reflecting on this, the 22 current strike actually has elicited some similar 23 feelings for me, those feelings of an information void. 24 980 In a world of information overload 25 the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation is a lifeline for StenoTran 224 1 me. It helps me to keep up with the changes in my 2 country and to make sense of the world. 3 981 I am someone who routinely changes 4 the dial to CBC when I go to visit my parents, at least 5 for the odd newscast and special program, because I 6 want to remain connected to the rest of my country. 7 982 Yes, the CBC is sacred and 8 distinctive. And I do expect the CBC will receive 9 another round of licensing from the CRTC and hope that 10 these will be issued to the extent that it reflects 11 this distinctiveness. 12 983 Thank you for the opportunity to 13 present tonight. 14 --- Applause / Applaudissement 15 984 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 16 Ms Ankenman. 17 985 Mr. Secretary. 18 986 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. 19 987 I would now like to call Ms Phyllis 20 Abbe and Mr. Mel Christian. 21 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 22 988 MS ABBE: I am Phyllis Abbe. 23 989 MR. CHRISTIAN: I am Mel Christian. 24 2000 25 990 Good evening, Madam Chair. StenoTran 225 1 991 We are going to do this a little 2 differently, and you will have to tiptoe through it in 3 your bare feet to be able to find the answers to the 4 questions that you have posed for us. 5 992 MR. KRUSHEN: Go ahead. 6 993 MR. CHRISTIAN: I love my CBC, but 7 this is not a love-in. 8 994 MS ABBE: When forces dark sell the 9 CBC they sell our soul, our liberty, voices of the 10 people, the people's voice lamenting, the desecration 11 of integrity, a public good we have learned to 12 treasure, uniting us across the land, honing our 13 identify. 14 995 MR. CHRISTIAN: The beeper that 15 controls speech is now used almost every day all day by 16 political sympathizers not allowing political opinions. 17 The buzzer is not what we hear. The world that we hear 18 is what fills the circling buzzard space. 19 996 MS ABBE: Voices of the people, the 20 people's voice lamenting. We were once proud Canadians 21 reflected back from public broadcasting, we saw the 22 image of ourselves command respect in foreign places, a 23 tolerant and a generous people, hearts and ports open 24 to receive refugees from war weary lands, our troops 25 peacekeeping, not warmongering in the world. StenoTran 226 1 997 MR. CHRISTIAN: Our politicians 2 support private corporate profits first and foremost 3 and always. The politician creates words and private 4 corporate rights faster than the public can understand 5 the motives. Political schemes support the private 6 profit brainwashing of listeners. Government does not 7 know how to play by its own proven established rules, 8 for it lets private corporations dictate caucus policy. 9 998 MS ABBE: Voices of the people, the 10 people's voice lamenting. The Monsanto touch, 11 terminator politics, democracy corporatized, 12 genetically modified, a look-alike seed turned rogue. 13 The seed of death. Elephantine hysteria about to crush 14 the living civilization out of us. In Rama (ph) was 15 there a voice heard, lamentation and weeping and great 16 mourning. Rachel weeping for her children and would 17 not be comforted because they are not. 18 999 MR. CHRISTIAN: A man without culture 19 is no different than a rat. Canadian culture is what 20 makes this place Canada. Just as our bodies will die 21 without oxygen, our dispersed country is vulnerable 22 without CBC freedoms, propaganda purchased by those 23 that control creates more control. If we let profit be 24 the yardstick we will live in a corporate market region 25 of the world. The people of the world are being StenoTran 227 1 squeezed by the wealthy. Those that have demand more 2 above all. 3 1000 MS ABBE: Devil's advocate turned 4 biblical scholar unleashes the Book of Revelations in 5 self-fulfilling prophecy. The corporate agenda 6 effected, unelected. Our political leaders -- may God 7 forgive us for electing them -- turn traitor and 8 Judas-like betray us. They themselves drag within our 9 boundaries the Trojan Horse of our destruction, our own 10 legislators a fifth column for the colonizing 11 multinationals. 12 1001 MS CHRISTIAN: To cry after the milk 13 has been split will create nothing, for the gate has 14 already been opened and the time will have passed to 15 push back the force of evil. The cutting, the 16 slashing, the burning in every country is isolating, 17 impoverishing and controlling. Canada must control 18 this cycle of unfettered profit. Corporate wealth has 19 no bounds and no limits and, most importantly, no 20 morals. 21 1002 MS ABBE: Voices of the people, the 22 people's voice lamenting do no harm to the voice of our 23 past. Speaking to our present, waiting to greet our 24 yet unborn. Voice of the eternal now are brushed with 25 immortality. StenoTran 228 1 1003 MR. CHRISTIAN: My CBC has our past 2 securely locked up in its vaults, free from the ravages 3 of time and man's tinkering. We know who we are and 4 when we were from that vivid record. This presence of 5 accounts ferment our reality, is the essence of our 6 Canadian identity that must remain Canadian at all 7 sacrifice. To secure our past we must prevent the 8 neutering of the CBC and its assets. 9 1004 MS ABBE: Voices of the people, the 10 people's voice disclaiming, we are not Faust, we will 11 not sell our public good for corporate favours. May 12 God bless the CBC for it belongs to you and me. 13 1005 MR. CHRISTIAN: Amen. 14 1006 Thank you. 15 --- Applause / Applaudissement 16 1007 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Abbe 17 and Mr. Christian. 18 1008 Mr. Secretary. 19 1009 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. 20 1010 I would now like to call Mr. Harold 21 Shuster. 22 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 23 1011 MR. SHUSTER: Good evening. 24 2006 25 1012 Much of what I want to say has StenoTran 229 1 already been said by others before me and much more 2 thoughtfully put together, particularly the last 3 presentation. 4 1013 I would like to start with a little 5 bit of background to my history with the CBC. 6 1014 I first started listening to the CBC 7 in 1983 when I was living in Whitehorse, and when I 8 moved to Winnipeg in 1986 my radio hasn't been off of 9 the CBC since that time. We have four radios in our 10 house, and all four of them are on the CBC. 11 1015 The CBC informs me, it entertains me, 12 it enlightens me and it connects me to my community, my 13 city, my province and the country in a way that no 14 other broadcaster could. 15 1016 My experience with the CBC is 16 primarily with English radio, but as a father of a 17 28-month old, I am becoming more and more familiar with 18 CBC Playground and now look forward to the exploits of 19 Jasper at the Dead Dog Cafe as much as I do with what's 20 happening with Noddy or Roly-Poly-Oly (ph) or the Zapp 21 Family (ph). 22 1017 The importance of CBC for me and 23 other -- and many here is that it plays, I think, a 24 vital role in keeping Canadians in touch with each 25 other and what makes us unique as a nation. The CBC StenoTran 230 1 serves a role that cannot, would not, and is not being 2 fulfilled by public broadcasters. 3 1018 While I was too young to remember 4 where I was when Kennedy was shot, I'm sure I'm part of 5 a generation of CBC listeners who will know exactly 6 where they were when Peter Gzowski went off the air. 7 1019 I think the current trend of media 8 concentration makes it even more important that a 9 public broadcaster like the CBC provide Canadians with 10 a balanced perspective on local, national and 11 international news, unimpeded by demands from 12 advertisers. The vast majority of whom are big 13 corporations and transnationals whose needs are being 14 very well served by the likes of Conrad Black, Izzy 15 Asper, Paul Desmarais, the Thompson's and the Irving's. 16 1020 The CBC provides a much needed forum 17 for Canadians to debate, discuss and participate in the 18 evolution of our country. It serves a democratizing 19 role in a nation whose political spectrum is being ever 20 more narrowed and shifting to the right by both U.S. 21 interest and media moguls whose interests lie not in 22 reporting but formulating and making news that will fit 23 with their view of what values and ideals our society 24 should aspire to. It is not one that I share, and the 25 CBC provides a place where differing views can be StenoTran 231 1 freely and opening expressed and in such a way as to 2 lend them credibility. 3 1021 I would also like to talk about 4 funding a little bit, and I think the ability of the 5 CBC to fulfil its role and mandate has been 6 significantly jeopardized by funding cuts from the 7 federal government. Cuts to the CBC under the current 8 Liberal government have amounted to approximately 9 $400 million at the end of 1997/98. On a per capita 10 basis the current funding is 47 per cent less than it 11 was in 1984/85. 12 1022 Restoring funding to the CBC is 13 important to Canadians and to the cultural community as 14 a whole. Cuts to the CBC's budget have a ripple effect 15 throughout the cultural sector since the CBC has 16 traditionally been the largest employer of artists in 17 Canada. 18 1023 Recent cuts to the CBC have meant 19 that repeat broadcasting has doubled to 33 per cent of 20 total hours. This saddens and infuriates me, because 21 it means that skilled, talented people have been put 22 out of work and valuable Canadian stories and ideas are 23 left wanting because there is no outlet for them. 24 1024 As a national public service, which 25 the CBC is, it must be adequately funded to serve that StenoTran 232 1 function to the highest degree possible. That would 2 require and needs to have foreign bureaus reopened and 3 reinstating the correspondence that work out of those 4 bureaus. 5 1025 When I was putting this together much 6 of my public presentations have been of a political 7 nature and speaking sort of intellectually. 8 1026 Much of the emphasis for me wanting 9 to come here tonight was to talk about how the CBC has 10 affected me personally, and I think some of what I have 11 wanted to say is a mix of that sort of intellectual why 12 we need the CBC and what the CBC has meant to me and 13 people who I associate with. 14 1027 I think in many senses that what you 15 have heard has been somewhat of a love-in for the CBC, 16 and I think generally that's how Canadians feel about 17 the CBC, they either love it or they hate it. Should 18 the CRTC renew the licence of the CBC because we all 19 love it? Well, probably not, but the licences should 20 be renewed, I think, for the reasons we love it. We 21 recognize and respect the integrity of the journalists, 22 the reporters and the producers who put the CBC's 23 programming together: it's independence; it's honest, 24 balanced presentation of the issues affecting us as a 25 community and a nation; it's support and promotion of StenoTran 233 1 new and uniquely Canadian talent from writers and 2 directors to artists in music, dance and theatre; and 3 for all the little ways that the CBC makes us feel 4 proud of ourselves, our neighbours and our country. 5 1028 Thank you. 6 --- Applause / Applaudissement 7 1029 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 8 Mr. Shuster. 9 1030 Mr. Secretary. 10 1031 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. 11 1032 I would now like to call Mr. Al 12 Mackling and Mr. Dave Mackling. 13 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 14 1033 MR. A. MACKLING: On a lighter note, 15 I would like to say that the Dave Mackling that is to 16 follow me is my older brother. I have another brother 17 and an -- 18 2012 19 1034 MR. D. MACKLING: Older and wiser 20 brother, Al. 21 1035 MR. A. MACKLING: Well, that's a 22 matter of opinion. 23 --- Laughter / Rires 24 1036 MR. A. MACKLING: We have another 25 brother, another sister. Unfortunately, they are out StenoTran 234 1 of the province and are not able to be here to make 2 their own presentations. I hope that they subscribe to 3 the presentations of my brother Dave and I. 4 1037 I started out to answer the 5 questions, but I suppose like a lot of others I sort of 6 wandered off the questions. 7 1038 The first question: How well does 8 the CBC fulfil its role as the national public 9 broadcaster. I started faithfully with that one. 10 1039 In answer to that question I would 11 say quite well, not withstanding two successive federal 12 governments, one Conservative and the current Liberal 13 government's severe reduction in operational funding. 14 1040 It is important to remember that back 15 in 1935 a vastly different Conservative government had 16 the intestinal fortitude and wisdom to establish a 17 number of national or federal agencies publicly funded 18 at reasonable arms length from government to ensure 19 that our nation, with all its regional differences, 20 would be linked economically, socially and culturally 21 from sea to sea to sea. 22 1041 In 1935 Canadian nationalism was 23 important. It is sad to note that despite the 24 increasing threat of economic and cultural domination 25 from our giant neighbour to the south our current StenoTran 235 1 government is forcing the CBC to cut back its national 2 cultural efforts and intends to weaken its independence 3 in the name of greater accountability by the proposed 4 amendment to the CBC Act whereby the current government 5 intends that CBC directors will hold office only as 6 long as their performance pleases the government. 7 1042 Despite all this, CBC radio and TV 8 have done well. Before the slashing of the CBC budget 9 we enjoyed excellent TV programs that were crafted and 10 programmed locally, not only giving the CBC presence in 11 the local workforce of artists and skilled workers and 12 technicians, but also bringing the richness of 13 Manitoba's cultural heritage into the homes of 14 Manitobans, but also to the enlightenment of Canadians 15 generally. 16 1043 We need more local production and 17 programming to knit our cultural mosaic together. 18 1044 Is there a special role for the CBC? 19 Yes. Showcasing our cultural heritage and diversity, 20 and demonstrating that a nation can be richer 21 culturally through a mosaic of ethnicity rather than a 22 melting pot, and demonstrating that despite cultural, 23 religious and linguistic difference people can live 24 together in tolerance and peace. 25 1045 Yes, there is a role: educating StenoTran 236 1 young and old Manitobans -- young and old Manitobans 2 and Canadians about our history, about our aboriginal 3 brothers and sisters, and about the challenges we all 4 face going into the millennium. 5 1046 Yes, providing some recognition and 6 outlet for minority political opinion. While the NDP 7 did not have enough members in Parliament to receive 8 official status for rights in Parliament, it was 9 virtually shut out of commentary in CBC news coverage. 10 Furthermore, the CBC should document the vast contrast 11 in the quality of life that exists under various 12 government throughout the world. Perhaps then we 13 wouldn't be so likely to follow slavishly the 14 propaganda of corporate America, propaganda that brands 15 public enterprise as negative and inefficient, and 16 taxation as something terrible that should be avoided 17 at all costs. 18 1047 The CBC should not have to seek 19 funding through advertising. Its operations should be 20 fully funded publicly by a fair taxation of all 21 Canadians, including corporations whose profits arise 22 because of the educated skilled workers available to 23 them in Canada, workers whose health and social 24 security are paid for by public taxation. 25 1048 I have nothing but praise for most StenoTran 237 1 CBC productions. While we miss Peter Gzowski, CBC 2 radio continues to perform well, and I want to say 3 locally how pleased we are with Terry MacLeod and Ross 4 Rutherford, to mention just a two. 5 1049 CBC television, The Fifth Estate, 6 Witness, The Nature of Things and others are excellent. 7 But CBC television is not perfect. In my view Air 8 Farce and its ilk presents a very cynical and jaded 9 view of politicians. If I were Jean Chrétien -- and I 10 have no particular axe to grind for our Prime Minister. 11 I very much oppose most of the policies he has 12 represented and the decisions he has made in Canada, 13 but if I were Jean Chrétien I would be tired of the 14 mean characterizations that go on and on from week to 15 week of his persona. 16 1050 It's time broadcasters generally made 17 an effort to restore a healthy public perspective of 18 people who choose to serve their community, their 19 province and their country. Broadcasters should 20 remember that in a true democracy all members of 21 society should be politically aware, and hopefully 22 involved. In effect, all members of society should be 23 politicians. 24 1051 If broadcasters want to keep 25 prominent public officer holders accountable, do it, StenoTran 238 1 but don't degrade and lampoon them as if they are fair 2 game for any kind of satirical treatment. 3 1052 Now, if you want an example of the 4 kind of sophisticated satirical treatment of government 5 you don't have far to look. There was a series on the 6 BBC called Yes Minister that is -- 7 1053 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's my 8 government. 9 1054 MR. A. MACKLING: There we are. 10 1055 That exemplified the kind of 11 sophisticated humour that debunked government in an 12 appropriate way. 13 1056 I believe that the CRTC should report 14 to the government that thinking Canadians want the CBC 15 to have greater funding, not less; more regional 16 programming, more reportage of Canadian sporting 17 events, less American professional sports, less 18 emphasis and reporting on the whims of the stock 19 market, and more reporting of local news. 20 1057 Finally, the government should be 21 advised to leave the CBC Act the way it is. If 22 R.B. Bennett in 1935, a Conservative, was not afraid of 23 an arms length public broadcaster, the CBC, why should 24 the current government want to tighten control of the 25 CBC? The CBC's role is to inform, educate, entertain StenoTran 239 1 and, as so many others have said, work as a force to 2 unify and integrate the Canadian culture. It has done 3 very, very well in the past, there is no reason why it 4 shouldn't continue to fulfil that role. But the 5 haemorrhaging, the cuts have to stop. Money has to be 6 put back, regional programming fleshed out again, 7 because we have a jewel that this country will not 8 allow to be lost. 9 1058 Thank you. 10 --- Applause / Applaudissement 11 1059 THE CHAIRPERSON: And now over to 12 your brother, Dave. 13 1060 MR. D. MACKLING: That's hard to 14 follow. You are a hard act to follow. 15 1061 The words "love-in" have been 16 expressed by one or two people, and I'm afraid my 17 presentation falls into the category of a love-in, 18 because I do love the CBC. 19 1062 I have listened to the CBC since, oh, 20 I guess 30-40 years, and my children grew up around the 21 supper table listening to Rawhide when they were just 22 little kids, and we looked forward to that so much 23 every evening. 24 1063 But, you know, we accept the fact 25 that you don't really miss something until you no StenoTran 240 1 longer have it, and that's my greatest fear about the 2 CBC gradually being eroded away. I think something 3 that exemplified that so much to us when my wife and I 4 were returning from Texas back in 1989, we had gone 5 almost crazy listening to all the trivial stuff on 6 American radio that we just were so happy when we got 7 close enough to the Canadian border that we could once 8 again tune into the CBC. It was really a glorious 9 moment for us. 10 1064 So I will begin my brief presentation 11 by paying tribute to those farsighted pioneers who 12 believed that a national radio network would inform 13 Canadians from coast to coast about this vast and 14 beautiful country. I think that over the years the CBC 15 has done an admirable job fulfilling that mandate. 16 1065 I personally have had my life 17 enriched in a number of ways. Yes, I have been 18 entertained, but most of all I have been educated by 19 being exposed to some of the great Canadians who have 20 debated important issues of the day with scientists, 21 teachers and writers. 22 1066 I think back to the programs hosted 23 by Peter Gzowski, and of the hundreds of interesting 24 discussions that ensued. 25 1067 Speaking of Peter Gzowski, let me StenoTran 241 1 just pause to say that 30 years ago Peter Gzowski 2 hosted a weekly program called Radio Free Friday. How 3 many of you remember that? I remember it because he 4 interviewed me one Friday evening. 5 1068 Anyway, I regard Peter Gzowski as a 6 national treasure, along with David Suzuki, Lister 7 Sinclair and many more who became household names. 8 1069 Thinking back many years ago I recall 9 a great Canadian entertainer such as Wayne and 10 Schuster, The Happy Gang, Max Ferguson as Rawhide and 11 many, many others who kept us glued to the radio. 12 1070 I'm happy that today we are still 13 receiving some excellent radio programs such as CBC 14 Radio Overnight, This Morning, As It Happens, Ideas, 15 Quirks & Quarks, Disc Drive, Basic Black, The House, 16 Cross Country Checkup, a few of my favourites -- by the 17 way, I almost forgot to mention The Vinyl Cafe. 18 1071 As far as television is concerned, I 19 would like to take a moment to reflect back to some 20 early TV programs enjoyed by my family and friends. 21 These were Don Messers Jubilee, Cross Canada Hit Parade 22 with Juliet -- do you remember that one -- The Tommy 23 Hunter Show, The Beachcombers, and of course today we 24 have some excellent programs such as The Nature of 25 Things, Market Place, Venture, Pamela Wallin, and I StenoTran 242 1 don't know what the program is, but we see Joe 2 Schlesinger on quite regularly, The Royal Canadian Air 3 Farce -- who brother Al doesn't think too much of, 4 but -- This Hour Has 22 Minutes, The Passionate Eye, 5 Wind At My Back. You know, these are all, for the most 6 part, wonderful programs that reflect Canada. 7 1072 Over the years we have developed a 8 wonderful pool of Canadian talent that has remained 9 loyal to Canada. This is something we should all be 10 very proud of too. 11 1073 I certainly will urge my Member of 12 Parliament to ensure that the CBC receives adequate 13 funding so that our national broadcaster can once again 14 play a leading role in informing and entertaining 15 Canadians. 16 1074 I thank you. 17 --- Applause / Applaudissement 18 1075 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 19 Mr. Mackling. 20 1076 Mr. Secretary. 21 1077 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. 22 1078 I would now like to call the next 23 group of presenters. When I call your name, could you 24 please come forward to the table. 25 1079 Elizabeth Fleming, Stuart Clark, Ruth StenoTran 243 1 and Kris Breckman, Antony Waterman, Don Laluk, Linda 2 McMillan, Nigel Basely and Ian Ross. 3 1080 I will call Ms Elizabeth Fleming to 4 make a presentation. 5 --- Short pause / Courte pause 6 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 7 1081 MS FLEMING: Thank you. 8 2028 9 1082 You will have to excuse me, I don't 10 have a written presentation, but some of your questions 11 were so provocative that I really felt I had to come 12 and address them. 13 1083 The one that I would like to start 14 with is: How well does the CBC serve the public on a 15 regional as well as a national level? In particular, 16 concentrating on the news and in television, 24 Hours, 17 The Regional Program and The National. 18 1084 I think in a time when the television 19 short hit aiming for stimulation, emotion and drama 20 challenges the efforts of some of us to sustain 21 thought, analysis and context, gives us a real cause 22 for concern. We are becoming a society for the short 23 term and we are seeing the death of context. A society 24 without context, and particularly a democracy, is 25 something of a dangerous thing. StenoTran 244 1 1085 One thing that I really appreciate in 2 the CBC is the fact that with professional journalists 3 who are able to stay at the respective levels of 4 government for some time and get to know what is going 5 on over time, have a knowledge of the history and how 6 the different levels of government fit together, and as 7 these journalists and presenters give this knowledge 8 across the airwaves it does provide a context and 9 continuing that we don't always see in other channels. 10 This is something that we really need to sustain. It 11 obviously requires more money and it requires a 12 commitment. 13 1086 Particularly in radio, one really 14 appreciates not having the short hits without 15 advertising. You are able to get a sustained approach 16 to issues and to have them discussed in more depth than 17 in programs with advertising. Here again, there is a 18 chance to go into more depth and to provide continuity 19 from day to day in the morning program and in the 20 afternoon program at the regional level. 21 1087 The balance, the fairness, the lack 22 of -- it is all based on having a lack of political 23 interference. 24 1088 I particularly ask the CRTC to 25 perhaps ask to see a January the 30th, 1997 program StenoTran 245 1 that CBC television did for 24 Hours, and in that 2 program they took us through the media rooms at the 3 "Leg" and showed how the desks were becoming emptier 4 and emptier as other television and radio stations were 5 not able to afford to keep journalists full time at the 6 "Leg" and covering it. 7 1089 CBC has been able to add continuity 8 and some of the newspapers, but it is expensive and it 9 does require help. But to get the feeling -- the 10 sustained approach for people to make analysis and to 11 understand how our political system is progressing we 12 do need to have people in those desks. They need to be 13 there. 14 1090 I would also like to see that they 15 cover more than question time and even go into more 16 depth, possibly covering estimates and getting into 17 looking into the future and what our politicians have 18 in store for us. 19 1091 At this time "Leg" has not sat for 20 eight months and we need journalists to tell us what's 21 happening in the programs and to help keep government 22 accountable, because our opposition parties are less 23 able to do that without question time. 24 1092 At the city level, we have excellent 25 reporters as well, and this is very much appreciated. StenoTran 246 1 They are there, they probably could do with two 2 reporters rather than just one to make sure that 3 everything is covered. 4 1093 So basically my point is, we cannot 5 lose sight of context and we do need the continuity and 6 people there to continue to give us that high standard 7 and the level of professionalism to which we have 8 become used. 9 1094 Thank you. 10 --- Short pause / Courte pause 11 1095 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 12 Ms Fleming. 13 1096 Mr. Secretary. 14 1097 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. 15 1098 I would now like to call Ms Linda 16 McMillan. 17 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 18 1099 MS McMILLAN: Thank you. 19 2032 20 1100 I am here tonight to speak for the 21 radio branch of the CBC. 22 1101 As a small child I remember our 23 family radio tuned to the CBC. My mother usually had 24 the radio playing in the kitchen as she worked. When 25 we became teenagers she switched over to the radio StenoTran 247 1 stations where my brothers began their careers, but she 2 still was a CBC television watcher. 3 1102 I began my career -- and I call it 4 career -- as a CBC listener when I married and moved to 5 Regina in 1967. I couldn't stand the local radio 6 stations. I disliked western music, I hated listening 7 to commercials about rockolators (ph), combines and 8 chemicals. 9 1103 The CBC provided me with middle of 10 the road intelligent coverage. I was delighted when 11 the commercials were removed a few years later. 12 1104 In Africa in the '70s I listened to 13 Radio Canada International. It kept us in touch with 14 the bigger issues of politics and sports, such as the 15 Grey Cups games, but it was dismal in telling me what 16 was happening in western Canada. We typified the 17 broadcast there as two items from Montreal, one from 18 Toronto and one from the rest of Canada. Chances of 19 getting any information about events outside of 20 Montreal or Toronto were minimal. I used the BBC, or 21 even Radio South Africa for world politics there. 22 1105 I became an absolute devotee of CBC 23 radio when we returned to Winnipeg in 1974. I turned 24 on the radio when I got out of bed, it stayed with me 25 throughout the day. I loved This Country in the StenoTran 248 1 Morning and Morningside in its various forms. The 2 programs were eclectic, and the various hosts treated 3 the audiences as intelligent. I learned about people 4 and events from around the country. I have always 5 appreciated the in-depth news coverage and have 6 listened to As It Happens since its inception. 7 1106 When I returned to the workplace in 8 the 1980s I continued to be a CBC fan. The radio gave 9 me the news before I went to work. My car radio 10 continued to inform me as I drove to and from work. 11 The house radio went on the minute I walked in the 12 door, and stayed with me when I worked in the kitchen 13 and at my desk in the evening. Weekends still allowed 14 me 25 hours worth of radio listening. My children 15 would never think to change a radio station to any -- 16 on any of my radios. 17 1107 The 6:00 o'clock news provided us 18 with information and topics for dinnertime 19 conversation. Saturday morning mornings such as The 20 House taught them about politics, and Quirks & Quarks 21 trained them in science. They learned to laugh at the 22 likes of The Royal Canadian Air Farce and to listen to 23 late night music other than the usual teenage pop 24 classic. 25 1108 At the lake we would sit together and StenoTran 249 1 listen to Ideas. I gave up going to church on Sunday 2 mornings because I go to the church of the CBC. 3 --- Applause / Applaudissement 4 1109 MS McMILLAN: I cannot miss my dose 5 of information. 6 1110 I taught high school English and 7 discovered that most English teachers in this country 8 listen to the CBC. It unites us as a nation. I can 9 travel to all parts of this country and talk to 10 colleagues, not about literature, but about programs on 11 the CBC. 12 1111 In the 1970s I stopped watching 13 television completely, my radio was on constantly. I 14 would go to bed with the CBC listening to classical 15 music. It would become silent in the early days at 16 1:05, and it acted as my alarm and woke me up at 5:30 17 in the morning when it came back on. 18 1112 Since overnight coverage began I have 19 joined the ranks of the best informed insomniacs in the 20 country. I never turn my radio off when I'm at home. 21 I wake up at -- or if I wake up at 2:00 a.m. I listen 22 to Radio Finland. I love to be informed about what is 23 happening in Australia. My only complaint is that 24 there is very little coverage of events in Asian 25 countries or the Indian subcontinent. I certainly hope StenoTran 250 1 this coverage continues. It is interesting and a truly 2 wonderful addition to the CBC. 3 1113 To sum up, the CBC is intelligent, 4 informative and insightful. There is nothing like it 5 in this country. It unites us as a country and allows 6 us to have a common world view as a nation. Small 7 centres have equal access. You cannot -- you do not 8 have to live in a big eastern city to gain access to 9 intellectually challenging radio programs. 10 1114 Without a publicly funded CBC radio 11 we would be a much weaker country. 12 1115 That said, I do have several 13 concerns. I am concerned about the cutbacks which have 14 forced CBC to run many reruns throughout the week. I 15 don't mind hearing an occasional item a second time, 16 but there are some segments of some programs that I 17 have heard three, four and five times, and with the 18 technician strike this problem is magnified. 19 1116 I am even more concerning about 20 political interference. Having friends of the Prime 21 Minister and eastern politicians in general acting as 22 the Board of Governors of the CBC means that final 23 decisions might not be made on the basis of what is 24 artistically meaningful or in the best interest of the 25 country as a whole. StenoTran 251 1 1117 Further, I am extremely concerned 2 about what appears to be blatant political interference 3 in this past year. By this statement I am referring to 4 the actions of the PMO in silencing Terry Milewski and 5 the APEC coverage. 6 --- Applause / Applaudissement 7 1118 MS McMILLAN: How arrogant of the 8 Prime Minister to think that he and his office have the 9 right to complain about coverage and, even more, to act 10 to stop that coverage. Imagine if Nixon had had that 11 same power to stop The Washington Post from covering 12 Watergate. I fear for our country when the Board of 13 Governors and the appointed directors allow the PMO to 14 shut down an inquiry. 15 --- Applause / Applaudissement 16 1119 MS McMILLAN: In short, we need more 17 funding to the CBC so that decent salaries can be paid 18 to the technicians and the on-air people. I want my 19 radio to remain. It is vital to this nation. 20 1120 I also feel strongly that political 21 interference must stop. Politicians and civil servants 22 alike must be held accountable. A radio with the power 23 to investigate is an important tool in a democracy. If 24 you shut down a national radio, no one will have the 25 power to investigate or inform us. Activities such as StenoTran 252 1 those that occurred in B.C. last year will continue 2 unchecked. The RCMP and the PMO will eliminate free 3 speech, and we will be no better off than the citizens 4 of a tinpot dictatorship. 5 --- Applause / Applaudissement 6 1121 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 7 Ms McMillan. 8 1122 MS McMILLAN: Thank you. 9 1123 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary. 10 1124 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. 11 1125 I would now like to call Mr. Ian 12 Ross. 13 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 14 1126 MR. ROSS: Thanks for having me here. 15 I'm not here on behalf of anyone or anything, I guess 16 just myself. 17 2040 18 1127 I apologize if my presentation is 19 anecdotal, but that's the way I talk. Actually, I 20 wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for the CBC. I saw 21 it on the news this afternoon and I remember, oh yes, I 22 was going to come and talk here. So that's what I'm 23 doing. 24 1128 I just met some friends upstairs and 25 I turned around and I looked and I saw these beautiful StenoTran 253 1 ice sculptures there, and it surprised me. It 2 surprised me that they were there, for one thing, but 3 also that they were so beautiful. They were fragile 4 and diverse. 5 1129 So to use that as a metaphor, the 6 thing also about them is that they were all made out of 7 the same thing, ice. So I guess you can extend that 8 metaphor to us as Canadians. You have probably heard 9 this before, but in many ways the CBC can serve as that 10 ice, that thing that makes us all the same. 11 1130 I have been travelling across the 12 country a lot in the last year and the CBC was sort of 13 my cultural touchstone. It was the thing that reminded 14 me of where I was, because often in so many of our 15 cities now, you can be in Ottawa on a strip and it's 16 the same as Provencher here in Winnipeg, or it's the 17 same as a strip in Calgary, very American, 18 "Blockbuster", you know, "McDonald's", whatever. 19 People know what I'm talking about. But the CBC helped 20 remind me of where I was. 21 1131 It also kind of brings me to I guess 22 the only sort of warning I have. One of the other 23 things I have been noticing is something I call the 24 regional possessiveness. I'm not going to use specific 25 examples, but I have seen this possessiveness cause StenoTran 254 1 strife and discord, this like "No, this is ours. It's 2 not for Winnipeg, or it's not for Vancouver." And I 3 have seen that same divisiveness within the aboriginal 4 community, and that is something that has kept us from 5 achieving our goals for quite a long time, and I don't 6 want to see it repeated anywhere. Perhaps one of the 7 ways to deal with it is to call attention to it if it 8 ever rears its head. 9 1132 I haven't seen examples of that 10 within the CBC, luckily, but I have seen it in a book 11 that I put out called "Joe From Winnipeg", and my 12 publisher can't sell it anywhere other than Winnipeg 13 because he is told its regional. So the next book is 14 going to be called "The Book of Joe". Anyway -- 15 --- Laughter / Rires 16 1133 MR. ROSS: You know, unfortunately a 17 lot of these booksellers were from Toronto and I'm not 18 going to pick on them because I understand it's colder 19 there than here right now. They need our sympathy. 20 1134 Anyway, when I was young and spending 21 part of my youth on the Reserve, there is only one 22 station up there, and that was the CBC. There was no 23 such thing as this 500 channel universe that we all 24 talk about that we now live in. It wasn't even 25 imagined back then. I mean, our TVs went up to 13 and StenoTran 255 1 there was the "U" channel that you always put it on but 2 never seemed to work. 3 1135 But we would wait for the end of the 4 programming day to see Fairford Channel 7. I realize 5 now that was probably a law or something, but that 6 sense of inclusion that gave us, or recognition, went 7 further than playing the Anthem, which they did at the 8 same time. So that's again some of the power that the 9 CBC can have. It's very subtle and it's all around us. 10 It's kind of like that ice I was talking about earlier, 11 we sort of take it for granted, although it's there, 12 but it's also fragile, like I said, as we are seeing 13 now. 14 1136 As far as inclusion, I think I am a 15 prime example for that. I literally walked in off the 16 street, that's how I got involved with CBC radio and 17 television, thanks to my producer Tom Anneco. He just 18 took a meeting with me and now I can say that it has 19 been very enriching and rewarding for me doing my 20 commentaries as "Joe From Winnipeg". 21 1137 People often say that CBC is elitist, 22 and I think that is somewhat of an excuse, because I 23 have found it be anything but. And it should continue 24 to do everything that it can to make us all feel 25 connected and part of a greater community of this StenoTran 256 1 country that we call Canada, because there is so much 2 now that can keep us at home. We can literally become 3 just sort of big heads living in our house. We don't 4 have to leave home any more, we can do banking over the 5 phone, over the Internet, shopping, you name it. So 6 rather than something that keeps us smaller, I think 7 it's something that can help us grow. 8 1138 I guess personally the example I 9 witnessed of that sort of power of what the CBC can do 10 was when I spoke at the Winnipeg Harvest Breakfast, 11 which is a food bank here. I had been doing my 12 commentaries for a few months and I had no sense of who 13 I was talking to. I can see all of you, so I'm talking 14 to you or the people behind me. But when I record 15 these things there was just me and my producer Tom and 16 a microphone. But when I went there the response was 17 quite overwhelming, and it's still overwhelming when 18 people come and talk to me and say they appreciate what 19 I do. Mine is just one voice, there are thousands and 20 millions of others out there. 21 1139 So finally, I guess, the CBC should 22 continue to go with the passion that is demonstrated 23 that we see here today, all these people who have come 24 and put their time and effort into speaking about what 25 it means to them, and what it means to me. Again, it's StenoTran 257 1 a subtle thing, it's not something that I can pinpoint 2 and say "Yes, it does that", because the CBC does many 3 things, and in many different ways. 4 1140 So my thanks for letting you listen 5 to me. 6 1141 Meegwetch! 7 --- Applause / Applaudissement 8 1142 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 9 Mr. Ross. 10 1143 Mr. Secretary. 11 1144 MR. KRUSHEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. 12 1145 At this point I would now like to go 13 through the list of presenters again recalling the 14 people who were not in the room when I made the initial 15 call. 16 1146 If any of the following are here, 17 would they please come up to the table: Ross Madder, 18 Tim Watts, Derek Dabee, Tom Toothier, Jeff Brennan, 19 Stuart Clark, Ruth and Kris Breckman, Antony Waterman, 20 Don Laluk and Nigel Basely. 21 1147 You may begin when you are ready, 22 Mr. Laluk. 23 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 24 1148 MR. LALUK: It seems that in the late 25 1800s, early 1900s it was very difficult for western StenoTran 258 1 Canada, Winnipeg, Calgary, Alberta, Saskatoon, to 2 recruit doctors, and there is a documented story of a 3 doctor that was a young doctor came to somewhere in 4 Saskatchewan and one of his first duties was to deliver 5 a child in a country home outside of Saskatoon. He 6 came to the home as a young doctor, probably had the 7 experience of delivering maybe three or four children, 8 to a country farmhouse. The lady had already had six 9 children and they were all delivered by a midwife. The 10 doctor came to the home and came into probably a 11 two-room country farmhouse where the woman was, he 12 said, ready to deliver the child. In the corner was 13 sitting the midwife who had already delivered six of 14 this family's children. Of course, she was sitting 15 there not very exited about the new doctor, this young 16 boy from Toronto coming to deliver one of her patient's 17 children. 18 2046 19 1149 The story goes that the doctor came 20 knowing that the woman was ready to deliver, and for 21 some reason she simply wouldn't. And he had the 22 presence of mind enough to ask the midwife if she would 23 help him. She said, "Well, if you really think you 24 want me to help you", she said, "maybe we should quill 25 her". Of course, not knowing what that really meant, StenoTran 259 1 he said "Well, maybe that's a good idea. Why don't I 2 boil the water and you can get it ready." So she asked 3 him to go to the barnyard and pick out the largest 4 goose quill that he could find. He came back with the 5 goose quill and he said -- she asked him, she said 6 "Would you like to do it or would you want me to do 7 it?" He said, "No, I think you had better do it", 8 having no idea what she was going -- what she was about 9 to do. 10 1150 She walked up to the woman and took 11 the goose quill and stroked it under her nose. 12 Subsequently the woman sneezed and gave birth to the 13 child. 14 --- Laughter / Rires 15 1151 MR. LALUK: Some of you must have 16 heard that story before. 17 1152 I delight in telling that story to my 18 medical friends because it is a true and documented 19 story. It was on Lister Sinclair's Ideas many years 20 ago. While my daughter was serving a church mission I 21 taped that story and sent it to her, along with many 22 others from As It Happens and other programs. 23 1153 I remember seeing several years ago 24 the picture "Cinema Paridiso", and I'm sure that many 25 of us have seen that movie, and after leaving the movie StenoTran 260 1 it really -- it really came to my mind that here in a 2 little Sicilian village after the Second World War, 3 probably in the early '50s, the entire small village of 4 600 or 800 people gathered every week to watch a movie. 5 And what did they watch? They watched John Wayne, 6 Marilyn Munroe, all the American stars. And we don't 7 realize how much influence and the propaganda the 8 American movie industry has been. All over the world 9 people are watching and listening to what I call the 10 new American heros, Vanna White and what's his name, 11 and we don't realize how important an influence I think 12 that we have by our only real national radio station, 13 and one of the identifiers of who we are as Canadians. 14 1154 So obviously we need to restore the 15 funding, and my vote is just that, to restore the 16 funding and to continue on our great radio. 17 1155 Thank you. 18 --- Applause / Applaudissement 19 1156 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 20 Mr. Laluk. 21 1157 This concludes the presenters that we 22 had registered. As I stated initially, we will now 23 provide to CBC the opportunity to provide any rebuttal 24 that they would wish. 25 1158 Is it you, Mr. Bertrand? StenoTran 261 1 REPLY / RÉPLIQUE 2 1159 MR. BERTRAND: Yes. Thank you very 3 much. 4 1160 Thank you very much, Commissioner 5 Cram and Commissioner Wylie. 6 1161 It has been a long day and it's 7 getting late so I will be as brief as possible. 8 1162 My name is John Bertrand, I am the 9 Regional Director of Radio for CBC here in Manitoba. 10 With me this evening, sitting in the front row, is Carl 11 Carp, who is the Program Director for CBC Television in 12 Manitoba and Saskatchewan. Also in the audience today, 13 throughout the day, have been representatives of our 14 French language sister services, and of the English 15 radio and television networks, including the 16 Vice-Presidents Alex Frame and Harold Redekopp for 17 Television. 18 1163 I said this at an earlier session, we 19 have been here primarily to listen -- and I underline 20 that -- to listen, because what Manitobans have to say 21 about the CBC is extremely important to all of us. We 22 have been taking very careful note, I have been 23 frantically jotting down notes, and we have made note 24 of all the comments that people have made throughout 25 the day in all of the sessions, and we are going to StenoTran 262 1 follow up on every single one of them. 2 1164 In fact, we intend to respond to them 3 directly and personally in writing to every individual 4 who took the time and effort to make a presentation 5 today, and I thank all of them personally for doing 6 that. We thank them very much for their support, their 7 suggestions and very constructive criticism. 8 1165 Most of all I think we thank them for 9 their obvious interest in and concern for the CBC and 10 what it means to all Manitobans and all Canadians. I 11 was quite moved by the fact, I think, that many people 12 spoke with real thoughtfulness and eloquence, 13 conviction, and a word we used I think, Commissioner, 14 in an earlier session "passion". A lot of people 15 mentioned passion. 16 1166 People spoke from the mind, and they 17 also spoke very much, I thought, from the heart. 18 1167 Many of the issues raised here today 19 will be addressed through the CBC's licence renewal 20 process, issues like local news coverage, regional 21 production for both regional and network broadcast, the 22 exchange of programs among regions and between French 23 and English Canada; the most effective way to provide 24 international new coverage with a Canadian perspective, 25 and that was raised several times; the proper place of StenoTran 263 1 both professional and amateur sports in our television 2 schedule; the best way -- and this came up this 3 evening -- to repeat programs so that everyone who 4 wants to see and hear an item can do so without these 5 items wearing out their welcome. These are obviously 6 matters that are important to many of the people who 7 showed up here today, and they are very important to us 8 as well at CBC. 9 1168 We will be using the licence renewal 10 process to confirm our continuing commitment to fair, 11 balanced, independent, in-depth and investigative 12 journalism. All of that is very important. And our 13 ongoing support for Canadian talent from the Manitoba 14 Chamber Orchestra, who was represented here tonight, 15 and the Winnipeg Folk Festival, to local playwrights 16 and producers. We will demonstrate that what we are 17 doing to address First Nations issues and to present 18 the voices, faces, stories and talents of Canadians of 19 all backgrounds in our programming. We will address 20 issues of coverage, and as well the issue -- the big 21 issue, the use of new technologies. 22 1169 In the area of public accountability, 23 and again that was an issue that has come up a few 24 times, the CBC has made, I believe very much, 25 significant efforts to make itself more accessible and StenoTran 264 1 accountable to people of Canada, and of Manitoba in 2 recent years, and we intend to redouble those efforts 3 in the future. 4 1170 Because, as several presenters made 5 clear today, our listeners and viewers are shareholders 6 in what we do. They are the owners of CBC Manitoba, 7 CBC across the country, CBC radio, CBC French, CBC 8 television, all aspects of it. You are the people who 9 are the shareholders and the owners of all of that. It 10 is your -- and I think a few people said it -- it is 11 your CBC. 12 1171 In closing, Commissioners -- and 13 again I said this earlier -- I just want to say how 14 grateful the CBC is to have the opportunity to hear 15 directly from Manitobans about what they think about 16 CBC radio and CBC television. I am personally very 17 gratified and I know my colleagues are gratified by the 18 strong support expressed by so many of today's 19 speakers, and we are determined to do everything we can 20 to earn and deserve that support of the people here in 21 the future. 22 1172 We are also very much committed to do 23 our best to address the concerns that have been raised 24 by everyone here today. 25 1173 On behalf of my colleagues, thank you StenoTran 265 1 very much for what really was an enthralling day in a 2 lot of ways, a very stimulating day, satisfying, and I 3 hope a productive day as well. 4 1174 Thank you very much. 5 --- Applause / Applaudissement 6 1175 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 7 1176 Thank you each and every one for 8 coming to this consultation. 9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2100 / 10 L'audience est ajournée à 2100 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 StenoTran