ARCHIVÉ -  Transcription

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

      THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

 

 

 

 

TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES AVANT

  CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

   ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

 

 

SUBJECT:

 

 

 

VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:             TENUE À:

 

Fairmont Hotel Vancouver             Fairmont Hotel Vancouver

900 West Georgia Street             900, rue Georgia O.

Vancouver, British Columbia             Vancouver (C.-B.)

 

 

March 1, 2005          Le 1^er mars 2005

 

 

 

 

 

Transcripts

 

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

 

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

 

 

 

 

Transcription

 

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

 

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

Canadian Radio‑television and

Telecommunications Commission

 

  Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

télécommunications canadiennes

 

 

Transcript / Transcription

 

 

        

  VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

        

 

 

 

 

BEFORE / DEVANT:

 

Charles Dalfen          Chairperson / Président

Andrée Wylie          Commissioner / Conseillère

Ronald Williams          Commissioner / Conseillier

Joan Pennefather          Commissioner / Conseillère

Stuart Langford          Commissioner / Conseillier

 

 

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

 

Pierre Lebel     Secretary / Secrétaire

 

Alistair Stewart          Legal Counsel /

Conseillers juridiques

 

Joe Aguiar          Hearing Manager /

Gérant de l'audience

 

 

 

HELD AT:          TENUE À:

 

Fairmont Hotel Vancouver          Fairmont Hotel Vancouver

900 West Georgia Street          900, rue Georgia O.

Vancouver, British Columbia          Vancouver (C.-B.)

 

 

March 1, 2005          Le 1^er mars 2005

 

TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

 

   PAGE / PARA

 

PHASE I (cont.)

 

 

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

 

 

Radio India (2004) Inc. 257 / 1703

 

CHUM Limited    320 / 2036

 

I.T. Productions Ltd.    401 / 2487

 

Mainstream Broadcasting Corporation  471 / 2982

 

Newlife Communications Inc. 545 / 3440

 

 

 

Vancouver, B.C. / Vancouver (C.‑B.)

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Tuesday, March 1, 2005 at 0830 /

    L'audience débute le mardi 1 mars 2005 à 0830

1697     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  Order, s'il vous plait.

1698     Mr. Secretary, would you call the next item, please.

1699     MR. LeBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  Item 4 on the agenda is an application by Radio India (2004) Ltd. for a licence to operate a commercial specialty FM ethnic radio programming undertaking in Vancouver.

1700     The new station would operate on frequency 93.1 megahertz on channel 226C1, with an average effective radiated power of 4,100 watts.

1701     Mr. Vic Sanghera will represent the applicant and he will introduce his colleagues.

1702     You have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

1703     MR. SANGHERA:  Thank you, sir.

1704     Firstly, I'd like to thank the Commission for your accommodation yesterday.  Mr. Gill is feeling much better.  Thank you.

1705     Good morning, Mr. Chair, Madam Vice‑Chair, members of the Commission, and Commission staff.  My name is Vic Sanghera, and I'm the Operations Manager of Radio India (2004) Ltd.

1706     Before we start our presentation in chief, we would like to introduce our team.  Just one note before starting.  You will find that the same family name comes up frequently.  The only family relationship within this group is between myself and Maninder Gill, who is my uncle.

1707     To my left is Mr. Maninder Gill, the controlling shareholder of Radio India (2004) Ltd.  Mr. Gill has been active in the cultural life of the South Asian community since he arrived in Canada at 16 years of age.  He has been a concert promoter, a record label owner, a producer of television and radio programming, and, most recently, the Managing Director of Radio India 1600 AM.

1708     To his left is Mrs. Gaytri Kaul, who provides Hindi programming with a particular focus on family, health, and culture.  She was involved in women's literacy and health training in India.  Since her arrival in Canada in 1989, she has pursued her interest in music and has become active in radio.  She has been an on‑air host since 1995.  In addition to English, she speaks Hindi, Urdu, Punjabi, Bengali, Telegu, Kashmiri, and Gujarati.

1709     To my right is Tom Gill.  Tom is a Certified Management Accountant and the CFO for the Coast Foundation.  He was responsible for the preparation of our financial statements.

1710     Beside Tom is Ashiana Khan, who typifies the diversity of our community.  With an Afghani father and Indian mother, she was born in England and educated in Fiji.  She is fluent in Hindi, Urdu, English, Punjabi, and Arabic and can also speak Pashtu.  As our Business Manager, she makes sure everything works, and she hosts a daily Hindi program and hosts Urdu programs as well.  She is also our computer whiz, making sure that our systems work.

1711     In the second row, at your left, is someone we are looking forward to welcoming to our team if the licence is granted.  Irene Yatco is the publisher and editor in chief of the Filipino Journal, the newspaper that links Vancouver's Filipino community to the world.  Educated in commerce and accounting, she is an accomplished businessperson with interests in restaurants and import and export.  With experience in Vancouver as a radio host, Ms Yatco will program our daily Filipino program.  Her experience in promoting concerts makes her an excellent choice to administer our CTD initiatives in her community.

1712     Beside Irene is Gurpreet Singh.  Gurpreet holds a Master's degree in Communications and has worked as a print and broadcast journalist for the past 8 years.  In addition to his news and public affairs programs with Radio India, he is a columnist for the Surrey Now weekly and a correspondent for the Indian Express.  He is also the author of the book, Terrorism:  Punjab's Recurring Nightmare.

1713     Next to Mr. Singh is our regulatory counsel, Mr. Jon Festinger of Koffman Kalef.  Jon needs no introduction to the Commission after his lengthy career as a broadcast lawyer and as a broadcast operator.

1714     Beside Jon is another person we will add to our team permanently if we are fortunate enough to receive this licence.  Mr. Ramin Mahjouri will program our daily Persian language program and administer our Canadian talent development initiative for his community.  He holds a degree in Communications from Concordia and is the Vancouver editor of Paivand, a weekly Persian newspaper.  He hosts two Persian programs on the Shaw multicultural channel, one public affairs and one musical, and has hosted a one‑hour radio program for the last 6 years.

1715     Next to Ramin is Dalbir Gill, who hosts two weekend programs of popular music, one in Punjabi and one in Hindi.  He also serves as the supervisor of our music programming.  Dalbir holds a bachelor's degree from the University of New Delhi and has worked in theatre in India.  For the past 13 years, he has worked in radio and television in the Vancouver area, mostly producing and hosting entertainment programs.

1716     In the third row, at your left, is Sukminder Singh Cheema.  Sukminder is the chief journalist of the station, and he hosts our morning public affairs programs.  He started his journalistic career in Punjab in the 1980s as a reporter for two of the largest Punjabi newspapers.  Since his arrival in Canada in 1988, he has worked in both the English and Indo‑Canadian press and provides reporting for the Vancouver Province on events in the South Asian community.  He is an accredited member of the Canadian Association of Journalists and the Canadian correspondent for a number of newspapers around the world.

1717     Beside Mr. Singh is Rakesh Chand, who hosts our daily drive‑home Fijian program, "Drive Time with Rockin' Rakesh."  Mr. Rakesh has over 15 years of experience in producing and hosting radio programs in the Lower Mainland.

1718     Beside Rakesh is Omendra Singh, who is responsible for preparing our daily 10‑minute Fijian newscast.  He holds a diploma in journalism and a degree in Business from Simon Fraser University.  In addition to his work at the station, Mr. Singh is the publisher and editor of the Asian Star.

1719     At the right of the table are two consultants instrumental in getting us here.  Kerry Wicks is President and CEO of Mediastats, a firm well known in the broadcasting industry and to the Commission.  She supervised the preparation of our three research studies.

1720     Next to Kerry is John Matthews of Promethean Electronics who prepared our technical brief.

1721     We are now ready to start our presentation in chief.  We have provided you with a chart showing the name of each person and where they are sitting.

1722     We are here today hoping to move to the next stage in our development.  Our team has worked hard and is ready to be entrusted an FM licence to serve Vancouver and the Lower Mainland.  Radio India's four years of operations have taught us what the community needs, wants, and how to deliver it.  In each year, we have enriched the service we provide to the South Asian community.  We look forward to maintaining our existing level of service while improving and expanding it.

1723     To tell you a bit more about the company and its development, I would now like to call on Maninder Gill.

1724     MR. MANINDER GILL:  Thank you, Vic.

1725     Good morning, Mr. Chair, Madam Vice‑Chair, Commissioners, counsel, and CRTC staff.

1726     I am proud to be here today with this team of dedicated and experienced broadcasters.  Together we have developed the best and most popular South Asian radio service in British Columbia.

1727     We have the experience, we have the passion, and we have the plans to provide a high‑quality stereo FM service to Vancouver and the Lower Mainland.  Our research shows that we are the most listened to South Asian radio station with over half of the community listening to us daily and another quarter listening several times per week.

1728     I have had much experience as a radio and television producer of South Asian programming in B.C.  In the late 1990s, our community was frustrated because of the lack of local over‑the‑air programming.  At that time, it seemed that there were no Canadian AM or FM frequencies available in Vancouver.

1729     A number of local businesspeople looked for ways to serve our community and developed SCMO channels.  However, they did not provide a quality signal.

1730     When an opportunity to lease time from an American station came along, I moved to provide service along with some partners.  But we also continued to explore means to become Canadian licensees, including several attempts to purchase Canadian stations.  When Industry Canada changed its protection rules, we were able to make an application for a Canadian station.

1731     Radio India (2004) is a new company, bringing together the existing studio and other resources of Radio India with my additional investment to fund it.

1732     Ashiana?

1733     MS KHAN:  Thank you, Maninderji.  Good morning, everyone.

1734     Unlike many other ethnic stations, Radio India does not broker its programming.  We are a commercial radio station with news, sales, programming, and business departments.

1735     Our conviction, gathered from experience, is that we need to provide quality programming to all the communities we serve.  This approach is not just good for the community; it is good for our business.

1736     From an operation with five employees in 2000, the station has evolved to 23 employees, of whom 17 are full time.  The nature of the service has continued to be enriched.  Every year has seen the addition of new features, including daily Fijian programming, a women's talk show, youth programming and much more.

1737     News is a key part of our operations at Radio India.  The Mediastats consumer research confirms our own market knowledge.  The four highest rated categories of programming were: news from the home country, news about the Vancouver South Asian community, information about Canada, and news about the South Asian community across Canada.

1738     To tell you about our proposals for news, here is Gurpreet Singh.

1739     MR. GURPREET SINGH:  Thank you, Ashiana.  Good morning, everybody.

1740     Our current four‑member news team provides seven local news bulletins each day.  Each bulletin is at least 10 minutes long.  Four of our local bulletins are in Punjabi, two are in Hindi, and one is in the Fijian language.  We propose to add daily 10‑minute Urdu, Filipino, and Farsi news bulletins.

1741     Our local South Asian newscasts cover the full range of local, regional, and national events.  They are supplemented by two live newscasts from India each day, one dealing with events in Punjab and the other from the rest of the country.

1742     Our journalists have extensive experience in news‑gathering, writing, and editing.  Our resources are significant.  We have connections to the major Lower Mainland ethnic and mainstream newspapers.  We are often invited by mainstream media to comment on community issues.

1743     We are now at the point that we have the capacity to be up to the minute, breaking local, national, and international news.  Our emphasis is on immediate and breaking stories along with the major news events of the day in the Lower Mainland.  This includes interviews with newsmakers.

1744     With our stringers and correspondents across Canada, in the U.S., U.K., and India, we can provide timely coverage of events across our country and around the world.

1745     And now to tell you about our public affairs program, here is my colleague, Gaytri Kaul.

1746     MS KAUL:  Thank you, Gurpreet, and good afternoon, Commissioners.

1747     We deal with community events of all kinds in our public affairs programs.  While some might call them open‑line programs, in fact they are more discussion programs with opportunities for listeners to participate.

1748     For example, Mr. Cheema's morning news program contains interviews and discussions with guests and the audience.  Gurpreet Singh's evening program uses a similar format, with less emphasis on news and more on discussion.  We cover everything from community and national politics, health and lifestyle issues, and culture and the arts.

1749     Ashiana's Hindi‑language program Aap Ki Pasand, the Urdu program Awaaze Pakistan, our women's talk show, and our proposed English‑language youth talk show all deal with a wide variety of issues and use many formats.  We usually try to have an expert guest who can provide guidance to our listeners, and we seek out our audience's input.

1750     One thing that we should point out is how multilingual our community is.  Most of the South Asians on this team understand and speak several Indian languages, as do most South Asians.  It often happens, during our programs, that someone calls in with a question in English, Punjabi, Hindi, Gujarati, Bengali, or Kashmiri.  Most South Asians appreciate Bollywood music and Punjabi pop music.  This means that the smaller South Asian communities already enjoy our programming.

1751     Before we started, call‑in shows in our community were chaotic at best, based on the host's opinions and often lacking focus.  On the SCMO stations before our arrival, callers would leap from subject to subject, and it was not unknown for abusive and vulgar language to be used.

1752     We have worked hard to educate our listeners to the rules of professional radio, and we religiously repeat these rules:

1753     1.  The caller must stick to the topic being discussed;

1754     2.  There must be no vulgar or otherwise abusive language;

1755     3.  Remarks putting down another language group, race, or religion are not tolerated, nor are sexist remarks.

1756     Unfortunately, we have had to use our 7‑second delay from time to time.

1757     We do not shy away from controversy.  Recent programs have included conflicts in the Sikh temples and same‑sex marriage.  The discussion, although sometimes heated, must stay within the bounds.

1758     Of course, we also play a wide range of music.

1759     I would now ask Dalbir Gill to speak about our music programming.

1760     MR. DALBIR GILL:  Thank you, Gaytri.

1761     Good morning to you all.

1762     The Indian subcontinent and its diaspora have a rich and diverse musical history.  At Radio India we try to capture as much of it as possible, as well as being in touch with how that music has evolved here.

1763     While many of our spoken‑word programs include some music, we focus on musical efforts in a number of specific programs.  They play music ranging from classical Indian and Pakistani music to Bollywood film and other pop music, folk and traditional Bhangra, and even fusion between hip‑hop and Bhangra music.

1764     As you may know, Surrey is the centre of a growing South Asian music industry.  Maninder Gill has played a big role in developing the careers of local artists.  His commitment results in lots of airplay for local acts.

1765     We track our music, and I am proud to say that we regularly exceed 10 percent Canadian content.  The music comes from a variety of Canadian labels, such as Maninder Gill's Raja Entertainers, Sargam International Promotions, Latti Entertainment, Golden Star Video, the Video Shop, Music Waves, and Shammi Entertainers.

1766     Vic?

1767     MR. SANGHERA:  Thank you, Dalbir.

1768     As you can see, we have put in place the systems and we have the resources to be a critical programming success, and this has resulted in sales growth for our station.  We know how to sell in the South Asian retail community.  Many of our producers also sell sponsorship of their programs, as well as individual advertising spots, and Mr. Gill is a one‑man sales machine.

1769     The Mediastats advertiser study confirmed our own experience:  The South Asian retail community uses radio, and advertisers will expand their budgets to advertise on FM.  Our operating results speak for themselves.  In our first year of operations, in three months in the year 2000, our total revenues were under $80,000.  In 2004, they surpassed our most optimistic hopes.

1770     While we have been successful with advertisers of South Asian origin, we have had more difficulty getting through to mainstream advertisers, both local and national.  Part of the resistance is that we don't have a measurable audience.  Further, these advertisers do not perceive us as being here for the long haul, nor do they see us as a Canadian station ‑‑ yet.  This application, in addition to giving us better technical coverage and stereo sound in Vancouver and the Lower Mainland, will help deal with some of the reasons why mainstream advertisers may not choose our station.

1771     South Asian advertisers know we are popular because they see immediate results when they advertise, whether through on‑site at their businesses or by spot sales; but convincing Save‑on Foods, Zeller's, or B.C. Lotteries to advertise with us is more difficult.  They have no way to know if their investment is a good one, nor do they know if the rates charged are appropriate.

1772     The application process has also showed us a way to address this measurement issue.  The consumer research for Mediastats has shown the extent of our success program by program.  With this kind of information, we can fine‑tune our programming as well as show advertisers that their money would be well spent on us.  We expect to do regular surveys to ensure that we meet audience and advertiser expectations.

1773     When we started this project, we recognized that receiving a Canadian licence would require us to meet the broad service requirement of the ethnic policy.  As Gaytri Kaul noted, the multilingual nature of many South Asians means that our Punjabi, Hindi, Urdu, and Fijian program is already attractive to many of the smaller groups, but at the same time, they have needs to speak to themselves as communities, and we decided that it would be appropriate to provide them with a weekly program that would zero in on their specific needs.

1774     We also decided that we needed to identify other underserved communities that would be compatible with us and which merited additional service.

1775     We asked Mediastats for three studies:  The consumer and advertising studies I have already mentioned and a demographic model.  The demographic model demonstrated that the South Asian communities were the most underserved and that there were also other underserved communities.  In choosing which of these groups to serve, we were guided by a number of additional factors:

1776     1.  We wanted to provide a meaningful level of service;

1777     2.  We looked for the degree of demand in the community.  For example, existing SCMO services, television programs, and newspapers;

1778     Finally, we wanted programmers with experience, credibility, and connections.

1779     We finally decided on two groups:  The Farsi‑speaking community, which includes Persians and some Afghanis, and the Filipino community.  We decided that we needed to provide significant service to each and to support the development of new talent.

1780     I would now like to introduce Irene Yatco, our Filipino programmer.

1781     MS YATCO:  Good morning.

1782     When Radio India approached me, I was excited about the prospects of a daily program for our community.  I know the interest in this from Filipinos, as I am the editor‑publisher of the Philippine Journal and I've hosted a radio program in the past.

1783     My daily magazine program will provide the news of our community here in Vancouver, around Canada, and in the Philippines, as well as a discussion of community issues.  Thanks to the journal, there is already an infrastructure in place to ensure this.

1784     Filipinos are very active musically, particularly based in our choirs.  Winnipeg, Toronto, and Vancouver all have strong musical activity, and my program Balitang Pinoy will give voice to them, as well as music from home.

1785     I am particularly pleased by the commitment of $15,000 per year for a Filipino music contest.  I expect that this will culminate in a free concert at our Philippines Day festivities in the month of August.  I am one of the organizers of that event, and our board is excited about the possibilities.

1786     Radio India also proposes to ensure the active participation of our youth with other visible minority youth in a weekly talk show, and a journalism scholarship will be available to all groups they serve.

1787     Ramin?

1788     MR. MAHJOURI:  Thank you, Irene.

1789     The Iranian community in Vancouver is the second largest in Canada and one of the least represented.  The population here is estimated at over 50,000 people.

1790     Our newspaper Paivand is published weekly in Vancouver and is also distributed in Victoria, Calgary, Montreal, Toronto, and Ottawa.  Our existing infrastructure will ensure that our daily magazine program will provide a wide range of programming for a growing community.

1791     My existing radio program is only one hour per week, and essentially a phone‑in discussion program.  I'm looking forward to broadcasting music and other cultural content with an hour per day available.

1792     Even more importantly, having a daily program enables us to provide our community with much needed up‑to‑date news on a daily basis.  I expect that the existing advertising sales effort that our paper makes will be augmented by cooperation in radio sales, and I'm looking forward to efforts to reach mainstream advertisers with our story.

1793     Lastly, we also will have a musical competition, and our culminating event will be during the celebration of Persian New Year, which is in March.

1794     MR. SANGHERA:  Of course, our CTD efforts provide a significant amount of money for the South Asian community as well.  Over $50,000 each year to promote new South Asian acts.  With Maninder's international music connections and the money for CD and video production, we expect a few new international stars from Surrey, Abbotsford, and Vancouver will join the likes of Gill Hardip and K.S. Makhan.

1795     In all, we propose to devote $100,000 each year to Canadian talent development, all but $3,000 to be spent on local initiatives.  This is more money to local musical talent than any other applicant.

1796     We would now like to show you a short video about Radio India.

‑‑‑ Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

1797     MR. MANINDER GILL:  Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, we have come a long way in the past four years.  From a mostly Punjabi service, we have developed a strong theme that provides news, public affairs, and a wide variety of music programming in four languages.

1798     Our own research, and that of other applicants, demonstrate the support of the community for our present service.  The many interventions from community leaders, politicians, musicians, and others show that our proposal has found favour in that community.

1799     We have found a way to be financially viable, not by brokering or charging community groups a fee for access to our air waves; rather, quality programming and strong community service have made us the most trusted group in South Asian radio.  We are experienced and are a serious radio broadcaster, here for the long haul.  We are ready to be entrusted with this licence.  Our existing team and our new colleagues will make you proud of what we can accomplish as a Canadian licensee.

1800     Thank you.  We are ready to answer your questions.

1801     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

1802     Commissioner Williams.

1803     Go ahead.

1804     MR. MANINDER GILL:  Mr. Chair, I would like to bring to your kind attention that my English is not that strong, but if I don't understand your question, I am going to ask Vic to explain to me in Punjabi, and then I will give you an answer in English.

1805     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good morning, Mr. Gill, and Radio India panelists.

1806     Of course, some of the questions I'm going to touch on have been touched on by your opening remarks at some level, but I'd like to just explore quite a few of the areas in a little more detail just so we can more fully understand your application.

1807     A few general questions, perhaps, just to get started.

1808     Where is Radio India located?

1809     MR. SANGHERA:  It's located in Surrey, B.C.

1810     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Surrey, B.C.?  Could you please describe your business operation and facilities.  How do you operate from Surrey, say, without benefit of a licence?

1811     MR. SANGHERA:  We initiate our programming in Surrey, and we have leased time on KVRI 1600 AM, a station in Washington State, Blaine, Washington State.  We send our programming to that station, and they are in charge of broadcasting it.

1812     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  What percentage of your revenues come from the Vancouver or Lower Mainland region?

1813     MR. SANGHERA:  All of them.

1814     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  If your application is successful, how will your business operations change?  Where will you go from there?  Say, for example, would you continue your current AM operation, or would you modify it, sell it, close it down?

1815     MR. SANGHERA:  When we started this application, we had initially asked to broadcast on two transmitters, 93.1 and 88.5 FM.  It was our understanding that 93.1 FM does not cover the entire Lower Mainland region.  Many South Asians and other ethnic communities are living in Abbotsford and the other Fraser Valley communities.  Because of a technicality on our part, that second frequency is not being heard at this licence, and I would like, actually, John Matthews to talk more about that first.

1816     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  While he gets ready for that, what would happen with the U.S. station?

1817     MR. SANGHERA:  Our plans with the U.S. station are following:  If we're awarded the licence, 93.1, firstly, we're going to come back right away, as soon as possible, to get the retransmitter.

1818     One of the disadvantages of 1600 AM is that the signal is not clear at night in some of the communities.  So the purpose of moving to FM would be to provide a clearer signal and also serve all the communities.  Our intentions are to simulcast for 6 months on 1600 AM so that a new company could not come and take over our operations, because it is our belief that 1600 AM is here for the long haul as well.

1819     So our intentions are to keep the station for 6 months, simulcast with our new station, and after that, it will move our operations to 93.1 forward.

1820     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Basically, after 6 months, there's no U.S. AM station?

1821     MR. SANGHERA:  On our part, yes.  I don't know what we'll have to do with the station.

1822     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  Mr. Matthews?

1823     MR. MATTHEWS:  Thank you, Commissioner Williams.

1824     The problem on 1600 AM is one that you will also see when you hear the applicants for 1200 AM here in Vancouver.  Even daytime coverage into Abbotsford is week, but nighttime coverage is, on some of those frequencies, nonexistent.

1825     On the FM applications you're hearing, you will see that the FM signal is not interference‑free as you move east, into the east end of Surrey even, let alone Langley, Aldergrove, and Abbotsford.

1826     My mission here ‑‑ my client has asked me to provide a service which can be inclusive of all the South Asian populations throughout the Lower Mainland.  It's really a question of inclusivity rather than anything that would seriously affect the business plan.  The numbers are significant but not huge in those communities.

1827     I would refer to Kerry Wicks for population numbers in those affected areas.

1828     Our notion was to apply on two FM frequencies in order to provide inclusive service.  Obviously, we can't talk much about what we would like to do on that second FM service as it's not before you now, but if you would indulge me a little, I would say that we're simply dealing with timing issues there, more than anything.  We had last‑minute objections from two licensees that stood to be affected somewhat by interference; and in both cases, we believe we have dealt with those objections in a timely manner, but certainly not in time to receive a technical authorization from Industry Canada.

1829     So what we would propose to do on that Abbotsford frequency is, if given the Vancouver licence, to set up a temporary authorization through Industry Canada and work with CHEK‑TV to establish parameters that could be used on 88.5 megahertz to serve Abbotsford and communities west of Abbotsford as much as possible.  So we would certainly be coming back to you with a subsequent application in order to provide that inclusive service.

1830     You have been provided maps that we hope explain the interference issue in the Vancouver market, and you've already heard from other applicants that there is serious first adjacent interference from a full‑power Class C station operating on the American side, just one channel away, and we're, I guess, somewhat optimistic that, on better radios, the Vancouver FM frequency will be able to provide service which is somewhat inclusive in Surrey, but I don't think you're going to hear from anyone that that Vancouver frequency is able to provide service in Langley or Aldergrove or Abbotsford, or points further east.  That is our motive for applying on that second frequency.

1831     MR. SANGHERA:  So, to sum up your question, if we are granted this FM licence, 93.1, we will do simulcast on 1600 AM and, again, we will come back right away with 88.5 frequency to cover the additional communities that 1600 AM covers currently.

1832     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Mr. Sanghera.

1833     If your application is unsuccessful, what would your business plan be going forward?

1834     MR. SANGHERA:  If our application is unsuccessful, we have been providing quality program service to the South Asian community for the last four years.  We've grown by leaps and bounds over the last four years.  We are heavily involved in fund‑raising.  We are heavily involved in news, which we know is very important to the South Asian community.  Our business plan would be to continue 1600 AM, as is, with some expansion to ‑‑ keeping in mind that our assumptions are that you are going to license two stations at this hearing, one AM, one FM.

1835     There will be significant competition for us, but we feel that the quality of our programming and the quality of our team here before you today, we will provide excellent programming and will continue to do so in the future.

1836     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.  The comparison of the current Radio India schedule from your web site with your proposed FM schedule shows that about 79 percent of the programs between 6 a.m. and midnight would be reproduced on the FM station.

1837     Would I be correct in assuming that the program producers associated with these existing shows would transfer to the new FM station?

1838     MR. SANGHERA:  Yes.

1839     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  About 21 percent of the broadcast week would be made up of programs that would be new to Radio India and you have stated there would be no brokered programming.  How will you recruit the producers that you need for the new shows?  Will they already be experienced broadcasters, specifically with experience in the area?  Will they have contracts with Radio India, or will they be station employees?  Just tell us a bit about that part of your business.

1840     MR. SANGHERA:  Sure.  We already have programmers in place for every program that we are proposing.  Most of the programs proposed, we are already practicing.  Our Filipino programmer is here, our Persian programmer is here, and, as mentioned, Gaytri speaks many languages.  So some of the languages that you see, Bengali and Gujarati, she also speaks those languages.  She has experience in broadcasting.  She will be programming those shows.  So there will be no brokerage, and we do have the programmers in place, with experience.

1841     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  And they're employees as opposed to contractors?

1842     MR. SANGHERA:  That's correct.

1843     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Your program schedule shows a program named Samajam on Tuesday evenings at 11 p.m.  There's no direct reference to it in your table in section 7.12 of the application.  But there is a reference to one‑hour programming in Malayalam for Indians of South Indian origin.  Is Samajam the title of the Malayalam program?

1844     MR. SANGHERA:  That's a printing mistake.  Samajam is the name of the program.  Malayalam is the community targeted.

1845     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.  In assessing the overall merits of your application, the Commission may wish to impose upon you conditions of licence related to your proposed levels of ethnic and third‑language programming.  In your case, this would represent at least 90 percent ethnic programming and at least 90 percent third‑language programming each week.

1846     Would you be willing to adhere to these weekly levels as a condition of licence?

1847     MR. SANGHERA:  Yes, we would be willing to adhere to these, and as you would note, our program schedule actually has 98 percent, so we would allow for the flexibility, the remaining 8 percent, to allow for our youth talk show, and also for future cross‑cultural programming that we may intend to do.  Further, for our evening talk show, we propose to have experts and guests in every field, and as you can appreciate, some of those guests might not speak the languages that we speak, so their translation would be done; however, they would be speaking in English.

1848     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.  Additionally, would you be prepared to accept a condition of licence that is reflective of the ethnic programming contained in your application for service in the predominant languages listed?  Specifically, would you be prepared to accept a condition of licence that a minimum of 68 percent of all ethnic programming broadcast each week would be directed in the Punjabi and Hindi languages?

1849     MR. SANGHERA:  Yes, we would be willing to accept the condition of licence, and as our programming schedule notes, 67.5 percent of our program is directed towards the communities you mentioned.

1850     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So would 67.5 be more appropriate than 68 then or ...

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

1851     MR. SANGHERA:  Yes, 68 percent we ‑‑

1852     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Sixty‑eight percent you ‑‑

1853     MR. SANGHERA:  Yes, we do.

1854     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I notice that in your supplementary brief, you've indicated a willingness to abide by a conditional licence that would prohibit broadcasting in any of the Chinese languages.  Are there any other commitments that you'd be willing to commit to as a condition of licence that would serve to maintain the nature of the ethnic programming service that you're proposing?

1855     MR. SANGHERA:  We do commit to broadcasting no Chinese languages.  We understand that as part of the broad service requirement, the Commission would like that service not be duplicated, and as you are aware, three ethnic stations do significantly serve the Chinese community so, yes, we would agree to that.

1856     We would also agree to 10 percent Canadian content in our programming.  We are currently doing that already on our station, and we would definitely commit to that.

1857     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  As set out in the Commission's ethnic broadcasting policy, a primary responsibility of ethnic broadcasters relates to their ability to serve and reflect their community's and their station's local programming.

1858     We note your application plans to monitor your success by reflecting the community by repeating the consumer survey performed for you by Mediastats.  If you are awarded a 7‑year licence, when do you think you would commission the first such follow‑up survey, and would you repeat the survey one or more times before the expiry of your first licence?

1859     MR. SANGHERA:  As mentioned, we will follow up with that survey, and I would suspect that definitely within the first year, we would do our next survey, and we would continue to do a survey each and every year.

1860     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So an annual survey?

1861     MR. SANGHERA:  An annual survey, yes ‑‑ at least.

1862     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Give me some idea of the types of questions you'd be asking in this survey.

1863     MR. SANGHERA:  Sure.  I can refer this question to Miss Kerry Wicks.

1864     MS WICKS:  Thank you, Vic.

1865     I would probably recommend that we would do questions along the line of qualitative surveying, also comparing the different types of programming on the air, reaffirming that we are still popular with our listeners.  The breakdown of the news; do people like the way we've divided news between news from home country, news from Canada, news from B.C. and local news?  If Radio India did pursue some cross‑cultural programming, of course we would want to explore that.

1866     Again, these would be my recommendations to my client.

1867     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Depending on the answers, the type of answers that you get to your survey, what kind of actions do you envision taking to improve or enhance the reflection of local issues and concerns in your programming?  Have you thought ahead to that?

1868     MR. SANGHERA:  Yes.  We will depend significantly on these research surveys.

1869     When we did our first survey, we were sure that the South Asian communities are heavily reliant on news.  However, this survey confirmed our initial understanding.  Based on that, we plan on continuing a significant level of news service to the community.

1870     Again, depending on each year of the survey, the recommendations, we will look closely at or work closely with those recommendations to broadcast our programming.

1871     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I'm going to move into the area of Canadian talent development now.

1872     MR. SANGHERA:  Sure.

1873     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I notice that one of your Canadian talent development projects is to give $7,000 to a local dance school to underwrite the costs incurred by their students in travelling to dance competitions in the U.S.

1874     Will you have any oversight concerning how the money will be allocated by the school?  For instance, will this school be reporting the names of the recipients each year to the station?

1875     MR. SANGHERA:  The dance school that we have in mind for the first year, Trinjin, Punjabi Folk Academy, is currently already active in competitions all over North America.  We would be providing them with additional ‑‑ this money would be in addition to what they are already spending, so they have the expertise in knowing where this money needs to go and we would just follow up with that.

1876     Maninder would like to speak.

1877     MR. MANINDER GILL:  We are giving you this commitment, but our past history shows, in the last 25 years, I produced more than 15 singers from Vancouver, music directors, musicians, film artists, so I have lots of experience and I am helping these artists, and they're world‑wide, well‑known now.  Thanks.

1878     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  So you'll have ‑‑ I don't want to use the word "audit," but you'll have a way of verifying who the recipients actually were?

1879     MR. SANGHERA:  Yes, we will be doing follow‑up with the dance school, and it will be a different dance school every year.  Just because there are so many different aspects of the South Asian communities, different dance schools, different traditional folk singing, so we would be allocating that to different dance schools and we would be following up with an informal audit.

1880     MR. MANINDER GILL:  We do a yearly concert since the last 25 years in Vancouver, since we started Radio India.  So we do a free‑of‑charge concert every year in Surrey, so almost more than 20,000, 25,000 people gather and enjoy that event.

1881     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.  You intend to provide $15,000 to each of the winners in the South Asian talent contest for studio recording time to produce a CD.  How will the CDs be used by the winners in advancing their careers?  What will they be doing with these CDs?

1882     MR. SANGHERA:  The $15,000 ‑‑ you're referring to the CD production?

1883     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes.

1884     MR. SANGHERA:  Okay.  The $15,000 is actually for the producing of the master copy.  So that money is allocated to studio time, recording time, and musicians, yes.

1885     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Can you tell me what this master copy would be used for and also what the videos would be used for?

1886     MR. SANGHERA:  The promotion of the artist.  The video is our cost and helping promote the first album that the artist comes up with.  The CD, once produced, it won't have anything to do with Radio India; it will totally be the artist's CD.  So it will be up to the artist, what he plans on doing with that CD, where he plans on going with it?

1887     Maninder?

1888     MR. MANINDER GILL:  I have lots of experience in producing albums and CDs.  I have produced so far, in the last so many years, more than 175 albums, including local talent.  We have lots of experience here, in the U.K., Pakistan, and India as well.

1889     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.  The winners of the Filipino and Persian talent contest would receive $6,500 for the production of a CD and 500 copies.  What use would the winners have for this prize?  How would they use this prize?

1890     MR. SANGHERA:  I would refer to Ramin for the Persian music contest and Irene for the Filipino contest.

1891     MR. MAHJOURI:  Well, right now, in Vancouver, we are suffering from a talent drain.  Most of our talent has moved down south to Los Angeles.  Vancouver is a very fruitful city in terms of artists, both in traditional music and more modern, pop music.

1892     Doing what I do ‑‑ TV, radio, and newspaper ‑‑ I'm often asked by musicians and artists, they call and ask if I can produce their CDs, and I say I can't.  If they have a CD, we can play it on the radio, and if they have a video, we can show it on TV.  So there's a great need for Iranian artists to be promoted that way.

1893     We're thinking, with this generous offer from Radio India and this money allocated, the artists can produce a CD and video, whereby we can promote them.

1894     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

1895     MR. SANGHERA:  Irene?

1896     MS YATCO:  It is a well‑known fact in the community, in the Filipino community, that there is a wealth of talents.  Unfortunately, they have no means to move forward with their talents, and this generous offer from Radio India will provide that vehicle for some of the talents to be able to make use of their talent.

1897     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.  As a result of Industry Canada's denial of your application for a technical certificate for the establishment of a transmitter in the Abbotsford market ‑‑ we talked about it a bit earlier ‑‑ am I to assume that these are your revised financial projections for a 7‑year licence term that reflects a change to your service area, and that your new Canadian talent development figures are the ones that we are to use?

1898     MR. SANGHERA:  Tom can answer this.

1899     MR. TOM GILL:   Mr. Commissioner, just before I start, many of my responses today will be referring to that same amended statement that you have before you, and, yes, the Canadian development talent to increase allocation to $100,000 does reflect our correspondence from December 15, 2004.

1900     You will also note that document includes just a summary of highlights for the financial operations, Schedule 4.4, "Summary of Assumptions," and Schedule 5.5, the methodology that we used.

1901     So in response to your question to the Abbotsford market, again, our model is a very conservative model.  It's based on what we currently do.  We are very successful in what we are doing right now.  The loss or the potential loss of the Abbotsford market is very nominal to minimal.  So I would not assume that there's any revenues that need to be taken out of this model to accommodate that last request for denial of licence for the second FM station.

1902     MR. SANGHERA:  Just to add to that, the loss is mostly in listenership, in quality of listening for the audiences.

1903     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Let's talk about that for a minute.  What portion of your projected audience tuning do you believe will be generated from KVRI as well as KRPI, Radio Punjab, which currently transmits from Washington state as well?  Your new tuning, where is it going to come from, which portion of your audience?

1904     MR. SANGHERA:  The new tuning of our audience comes mostly from Radio India current listeners.  We're going to transfer our current operations to the FM ‑‑

1905     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Within the 6 months.

1906     MR. SANGHERA:  Yes, within the 6 months.  So we're projected to take over our listening audience.

1907     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So it's purely your listening audience, or do you hope to attract other audiences.

1908     MR. SANGHERA:  Oh, we definitely hope to attract other audiences.  Moving to the FM band, music is going to be stereo sound, so we will have an advantage in that regard.  Again, as I mentioned before, we are assuming that there will be a successful AM incumbent in this hearing as well, so keeping that in mind, listeners, depending on programming, quality of programming, is where projections lead to.

1909     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.  In your deficiency responses, further along the same area here, dated 15 December '04, you indicate that approximately 70 percent of your year 1 advertising revenues be generated from existing services, of which 65 percent would be from your service transmitted from Washington state.

1910     As a point of clarification, is this 65 percent of total revenue, or 65 percent of your out‑of‑market services.  An example:  45 percent of year 1 projected revenue?

1911     MR. TOM GILL:  Sorry.  Can you repeat the question?

1912     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Sure.  In a reply to us on the 15th of December, 2004, you indicate that approximately 70 percent of your year 1 advertising revenues would be generated from existing services, of which 65 percent would be from your service transferred from Washington state.

1913     As a point of clarification, is this 65 percent of total revenues or 65 percent of your out‑of‑market services?

1914     MR. TOM GILL:  It is 65 percent of Radio India ‑‑ 65 percent will be of current Radio India revenues.  So we are allocating new radio advertising to be 10 percent and also incremental spending by existing radio advertisers, 10 percent, and advertising directed from other media, such as newspapers, to be 10 percent.

1915     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So that's 95 percent.

1916     MR. TOM GILL:  From other ethnic broadcasters.

1917     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So 5 percent is the answer to the question.

1918     MR. TOM GILL:  Yes, that's right.

1919     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You've indicated that your proposed new service will be attractive to the estimated 20,000 South Asians in and around the Abbotsford area.  With your new wave serving that area, what percentage of your revenue do you think would come from that?

1920     MR. TOM GILL:  We conservatively estimate that the Abbotsford area has a potential of maybe 5 percent.

1921     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay.  From a technical perspective, what, in your view, are the compelling reasons to grant you the requested frequency?

1922     MR. SANGHERA:  Before I pass this question on to John, we believe that there is a significant amount of the South Asian community living in Abbotsford and region, close to 30,000, and that's including Abbotsford, Langley, Mission, Aldergrove, Haney, so those communities would be left without coverage, even with the 93.1 frequency, and I'd call on John to talk more about that.

1923     MR. MATTHEWS:  Thank you.  You've been provided a map that compares the coverage that has been proposed by different FM applicants.

1924     You can see, by looking at that map, that we have made maximum use of the frequency 93.1.  We've also been thorough about putting together a coverage solution that reaches all of the South Asian communities from Vancouver to Abbotsford, and we hope that that inclusivity of service will be something that you consider as important as we do.

1925     Examining that comparison map, you can see that Radio India's interference‑free contour through Surrey, for instance, is reaching close to 50 percent of the Surrey population.  The area that is most in jeopardy is southern Surrey.  Only on better‑quality radios would we expect interference‑free service in that area, and we're hopeful that, given the opportunity to test transmissions in Abbotsford, that we'll be able to provide some further service in areas of Surrey that are not reached by the Vancouver signal.

1926     The map we've provided, labelled Map D, the fourth map in the PowerPoint presentation, shows you the combined service areas based on a very conservative approach to what we would expect to be able to do than Abbotsford.  It's a scaled‑down version from what had been originally applied for in Abbotsford, and it's basically the least that we would expect.  We would expect it to be somewhat better, depending on the results of tests that we would do in cooperation with Industry Canada and CHEK‑TV.

1927     In summary, what we're hoping for here is an FM service that, between the two frequencies, is somewhat continuous between Vancouver, all the way to Abbotsford, and we hope that there will be no South Asian populations or communities that will be excluded as a result of the rather difficult adjacent interference on the Vancouver channel and the ‑‑ co‑channel interference on the proposed Abbotsford channel.

1928     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.  One final question, I guess, is:  In what way does your proposal constitute the best use of frequency 93.1, particularly from a technical perspective?

1929     MR. SANGHERA:  Again, for a technical perspective, I can pass it to John.

1930     MR. MATTHEWS:  Thank you, Vic.

1931     Simply a matter of making maximum use of the frequency in Vancouver, we're hoping to reach more people, despite the interference, and likewise with regard to Abbotsford.  We don't know why the other applicants have overlooked it, but we think it's important enough that we will come back to you with an application to ensure that we can include those communities within our service.

1932     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

1933     Mr. Chair, that concludes my series of questions for this applicant.  Thank you very much.

1934     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  In regard to your music programming, you indicated in your response to our deficiencies, that you'll be carrying some 54‑1/2 hours of spoken word; is that correct?

1935     MR. SANGHERA:  That's correct.

1936     THE CHAIRPERSON:  So what will be the musical content; the balance of the time?

1937     MR. SANGHERA:  Yes, that's correct.

1938     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Pardon me?

1939     MR. SANGHERA:  Correct.

1940     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, I have it that, Mr. Gill, you've been introduced as a concert promoter, record label owner, and so on, and I'm wondering whether ‑‑ and I assume that a number of the artists that are under contract to you will be aired on this station?

1941     MR. MANINDER GILL:  Yes, which artists I produce, we play their songs, plus my staff, like, you know, they play more songs from my competitors.  We already mentioned here, like, you know, the Music Waves, Latti Entertainment, and other media companies in Vancouver.  So we always love to play those songs as well.

1942     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you have internal procedures or guidelines in respect of access to your air waves by artists who are not under contract to Mr. Gill to you avoid a kind of favouritism to those who might be?

1943     MR. MANINDER GILL:  Not at all.

1944     MR. SANGHERA:  I think he said, "Not at all."

1945     THE CHAIRPERSON:  He's not concerned about it?

1946     MR. SANGHERA:  No, he's saying that we don't have any favouritism.

1947     In regards to that, the policies that we would have in place mostly are that the listening audience, the level of quality that we provide our listening audience, if we were to give specific favouritism to Maninder's artists, we would hear it from our listeners.  So to keep our high level of service where it is, I mean, we would keep it upon ourselves to promote other artists as well, because there are a significant amount of artists here, they have a wide variety of talent, and each artist caters to different parts of the communities.

1948     In regards to Maninder's artists, it might be that, you know, most of his artists target more traditional‑type music.  So if we wanted to provide more modern types of music, we would have to go to other music labels, such as Sargam International Promotions or even Music Waves, such artists as Jazzy B.

1949     THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, I understand that.  I guess rules are set up to take care of worst cases, to take care of cases where there might be a suspicion or feeling among certain sectors that that isn't happening, and I'm wondering whether you'd be prepared to develop some form of rules of practice, guidelines, code to ensure that the public and other artists can be comfortable that there will be access ‑‑ in the event of a complaint ‑‑ that there will be standards against which you'll be evaluated as to whether you're not giving such favouritism?

1950     MR. SANGHERA:  Yes.  We haven't looked that far yet.  We operate in good faith, just as every other station does.  But we would definitely look at successful models that do have such features in their policies, and definitely, we would hold ourselves to a standard that could be compared against, yes.

1951     MR. MANINDER GILL:  Plus, you can see from letters of support, there's so many other companies supporting us on this issue.

1952     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  No, it's not for normal course that we're concerned.  Again, these rules come up because, at the extremes, there is sometimes disaffection or suspicion, and in those cases, it's useful to have ‑‑

1953     MR. SANGHERA:  Sure.  And I would like to point out that if we had any such bias in the past, it wouldn't be shown in the amount of letters of support that we have received from artists across the board.  If you look at our public file, we have artists that are on Maninder's label, we have artists that have nothing to do with Maninder.  He's been in the business for 25 years.  There are some artists that have never worked with him, and they have signed letters of support in our favour.

1954     Again, we would, if you require so, we would have standards of policies in going forward.  But in good faith, we do play all musicians and artists.

1955     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

1956     Commissioner Wiley?

1957     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Mr. Matthews, would you help me understand these maps better?  If I look at the "B" map ‑‑ well, first of all, Mr. Gill, perhaps you can tell us, where is the majority?  Or is there an area where the audience you are targeting is situated in greater proportion to other areas of Vancouver?  Is it the Lower Mainland?

1958     MR. SANGHERA:  You're asking for where the largest concentration of South Asians are?

1959     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Yes.

1960     MR. SANGHERA:  Kerry, could you answer that question?

1961     MS WICKS:  Essentially, it is the whole area, Vancouver and the Lower Mainland; and the percentage of the population that would be left out, if you will, or the number would be about 25,000, without the Abbotsford transmitter.

1962     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  But, Mr. Matthews, if we look at the coverage shown on the Map B, I guess ‑‑ am I to understand that what you're getting by continuing to transmit on 92.9 and, concurrently, at 93.1, you're actually creating interference to 92.9?  Is that what the "B" map shows?

1963     MR. MATTHEWS:  No.  Any interference that takes place to the American station that is on the frequency 92.9 would take place over Canadian land, at least not over U.S. land.  The international agreement doesn't permit us to interfere with a U.S. station over U.S. land.

1964     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  With regard to reaching your audience, 93.1, if you continue on 92.9, 93.1 then covers the northern part of Vancouver but not at all the southern part.

1965     MR. MATTHEWS:  Yes.  What Map B shows you is the interference area, which is due to the existing station operating from the U.S. on 92.9.

1966     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So that is not changing by broadcasting on 93.1?  It doesn't get any worse?

1967     MR. MATTHEWS:  We're in no position to alter the parameters of the U.S. station.  What we can do is portray the extent to which that interference limits coverage on 93.1, which is the proposed channel.

1968     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So far the time that it may take to solve the Abbotsford type of retransmitter, you would ‑‑ 93.1 would have the effect of improving coverage in the northern part of Vancouver but not changing it in the southern part, in the Lower Mainland?

1969     MR. MATTHEWS:  I'd like to make clear, first of all, that the frequency 92.9 is under operation by ‑‑ has nothing to do with Radio India.  Radio India is operating on 1600 AM right now.

1970     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  On the AM, okay.  Oh, so that one, there would be no ‑‑ on this map, I'm sorry, you're just showing the interference that exists at the moment ‑‑

1971     MR. MATTHEWS:  92.9 is a classic rock station operated by some Chicago entity ‑‑

1972     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  ‑‑ and 1600 doesn't make that worse?

1973     MR. MATTHEWS:  No.

1974     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  No.  So you would be improving coverage to the north and not making it worse.  I misunderstood ‑‑ thank you ‑‑ that it was not the frequency 92.9 that was causing this.

1975     MR. MATTHEWS:  I would be happy to take you through this series of maps ‑‑

1976     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  No, I think I understand my mistake, yes.  Thank you.

1977     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Langford?

1978     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

1979     I have some questions that are probably best characterized in the realm of kind of wonderland or something, because I'm going to ask you about some situations over which we have no jurisdiction and, therefore, of course, don't exist.  But, in fact, they do exist, and I'm curious about them.

1980     I guess really what I'm interested in is the whole notion of what this market, the appetite, if we can call it, for the type of radio service that you and other applicants have come before us with, aimed at the communities that all of you basically are aiming them at in various degrees.  What is the market, what's the appetite out there, for these services?  Because, in fact, they're already being served, being served by radio services that don't exist, as far as our jurisdiction goes, but do in the real world.

1981     And so I would like first to just get a notion of what the competitive world is like right now between you and the other station that doesn't exist.  Could you give us a little idea of what it's like competing for market share in Vancouver at this point between two stations coming out of Washington state?  And I don't expect you to give us confidential numbers, but if you could give us some sort of narrative sense of what the battle is like out there for market share?  I think that would help me to understand what this market can take.

1982     I'll tell you where I'm leading ‑‑ I'm sorry to be so long in the asking.  But you did make a statement that you expected two radio stations to be licensed coming out of this, so it does make me curious, as to just what this market can bear.

1983     So what's it like right now, today?

1984     MR. SANGHERA:  The research that we've had gone in regards to our advertising research ‑‑ and I'll let Kerry talk more about that ‑‑ shows that roughly 43 percent of businesses advertise using radio.  Of that 43 percent, the two stations that don't exist make up for about 90 percent of the revenues.  It is a competitive market.  For us, we don't own that station, as the other station does.  We have a significant lease to fulfil.  So we compete on our programming.  There's no way that we compete on price‑cutting or any other feature, so strictly programming ‑‑ news, quality programming service.

1985     To talk more about the specific stats, I'd refer to Kerry first.

1986     MS WICKS:  Thank you, Vic.

1987     Yes, as you can see from our demographic model, this is a large community.  The South Asian community alone ‑‑ and these are 2001 numbers, so, of course, it's only grown since then ‑‑ there's a couple hundred thousand people.  This is larger than many small cities.  So we certainly feel that the community can support a number of applicants.

1988     Our advertising research reinforces the fact that these are people who do spend money on advertising.  They advertise regularly.  Our weighted average was $1,000 a month.  Two thirds of our advertisers are spending over $500 a month, and radio is close to half of that.  So we do believe there is room for ourselves and another licensee.

1989     And then in addition to that, our consumer research reaffirms that people are listening to the radio frequently, so the advertisers are being heard, their message is getting out.  People are listening.  If you only take our radio station, half of the people surveyed are listening every day and another quarter are listening several times a week, and our competitors are enjoying considerable listenership as well.

1990     So, yes, we think there is room for ourselves, all of the existing incumbents, plus another applicant.  Thank you.

1991     MR. SANGHERA:  To add to that, based on our existing revenues and based on that research, we can ballpark that there's approximately $4 million in the existing radio market.  If you divide that by giving us the successful FM licence, a new AM licence, and also 1550 still being there, you can divide that three ways and there still is a market for all three stations.

1992     MR. MANINDER GILL:  And add to that ‑‑ I just want to mention one more thing.  We have a very lovely team.  They have good experience.  We charge even more money than mainstream radio charges.

1993     Our Sukminder Singh team has a morning program.  We charge $95 per slot.  And we never go under $20 at Radio India at any time.  So we are doing extremely well on Radio India 1600 AM.  So we have lots of connections in the community.  So that is why we get this.

1994     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  There's some feverish note‑taking going on out there in the audience, I just want to warn you.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

1995     It's not up to me to tell you how to protect your business.

1996     Let me push the scenario just another step because you've told us that ‑‑ I think what you've told us is that the two of you are both succeeding in this market, the two existing radio stations out of Washington ‑‑

1997     MR. SANGHERA:  Based on our research, yes.

1998     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  I think you've just said, if I understood you correctly, that there would be room for one more in there, in the sense that I suppose the scenario you're giving us is that it actually would be two Canadian‑licensed services and then one other continuing, and in your dreams, not your own.  So we're up to three.

1999     Now let me give you the worst‑case scenario.  We don't licence you ‑‑ this is all hypothetical; I don't want any tears ‑‑ we don't licence you, we don't licence the other existing Washington player.  So the two of you carry on.  But we do licence a Canadian AM and FM service.  So we now have four services scrapping over market share.

2000     What do you think of that in the terms of a business case?  I don't want to hear about your disemployment, because this is all hypothetical.  But in the sense of trying to keep your operation going, can this market of the sort of numbers we've heard here, can this market absorb that amount of competition?

2001     MR. SANGHERA:  The short answer is yes, in our opinion, and the reason for that is, even if we weren't successful for the FM licence, you gave the FM licence to another applicant, hypothetically, there wasn't a successful AM incumbent, we still existed, 1550 still existed.  Although it would be tough, we're going to run on our program.  We have full confidence in our team.  We have quality, experienced broadcasters in news and in our musical programs.

2002     One of focuses that we would change to rely even more heavily on is news.  Our research has shown that news is very important to the community.  AM bands in general, even on mainstream radio, are successful, news formats on AM; and as I mentioned, we do have a significant lease agreement, so there's nothing that we can do in that regard, so we feel confident in our team.  We have grown in leaps and bounds in the last four years.  We probably wouldn't grow as significantly in the future, but we would continue to grow.

2003     MR. MANINDER GILL:  More to add.

2004     Actually, if we don't succeed in the application for a new FM licence, we're going to not leave 1600 AM at all.  We love to provide service to my community.

2005     The four different communities we are serving now, you can see from the letters of support, each and every temple ‑‑ from Sikh temples, Hindu temples, Muslim mosques ‑‑ each and every one of them is giving us a letter of support.  We give them a fantastic service.  They are really proud of Radio India, and I am really proud of all these four nations.

2006     So we have huge revenue.  Why should we leave?  I have 25 years' experience.  Every year when I do a concert, so many other promoters bring a concert on that month, and sometimes the same day, but I always be successful.  I have lots of connections in that community, and the community knows me very well and I know the community very well.  Not only the Sikh community, but all these four or five different communities as well.

2007     MR. SANGHERA:  Another thing I would like to add to that is, in answering your question, we also have to take into consideration, if we are the successful incumbent for this frequency that, as I mentioned, 1600 AM is not going anywhere.  The station that operates that, that is their business.  They have over 50 stations across the U.S., and that is their business plan, to seek out ethnic communities in the markets and to sublease the time.  So if we take over 93.1, we are taking into consideration that someone is going to take over 1600 AM and also have taken into consideration, when we want to simulcast for 6 months, and that's our rationale behind that.

2008     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Would you be offended if I put the same question, though, because there's so much enthusiasm in your team and so much trust in your ability ‑‑ and that's good.  That's a good thing.  But would you be offended if I put the same question to Miss Wicks, just on the sense of straight numbers.

2009     From your experience, do the numbers you're giving us today support four radio services?

2010     MR. SANGHERA:  Go ahead, Miss Wicks.

2011     MS WICKS:  Thank you, sir.

2012     I think it goes without saying, more services, more competition means it's going to be tougher for everybody.  Where we base our numbers and where you'll see the confidence coming from our team is that we have a proven track record, we are a going concern.  So when we say we're number one, when we say we will be number one, we're not just making that up.  We're speaking from experience, and we believe we have the team to sustain the competition for the long haul.

2013     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  More high enthusiasm.  But if I may ask:  What about the straight numbers?  Looking at that as a professional student of these matters, I mean, you've given us a total population catch basin, if you were coming in this cold, no existing stations, just that number, that population number, would it support four services?

2014     MS WICKS:  Yes.  This is a quarter of a million people.  This is a sizable market.  The South Asian portion of the Greater Vancouver market is as big as a large city unto itself, and that is why we feel it can sustain the competition.

2015     That is why you will hear all of us actively reinforcing our message.  We are prepared for you to license two people, not just ourselves.  And we are prepared not only to compete within the market but also to be complementary to the other applicants and the other incumbents.  Our programming schedule demonstrates that.

2016     MR. SANGHERA:  Just to add to that, sir.  As Kerry mentioned, we do figure about 250,000 South Asians living in this community.  It's my understanding that the City of Kingston, Ontario, a population of 100,000, is successfully supporting five stations.  So we don't see why this market would not support four stations.

2017     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  A lot of different formats in Kingston, though, whereas you folks are offering pretty well the same type of a format, aren't you?

2018     MR. SANGHERA:  But in regards to programming, there's a lot of different target audiences in the programming as well.  I mean, just saying that we cater to the Punjabi community does not mean you cater to Punjabi community.  If you put one type of song on for a first generation Canadian, his or her tastes are going to be different than a new immigrant from India.  So there is room within the communities for different types of programming in each language.

2019     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.

2020     Those are my questions, Mr. Chair.

2021     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

2022     Counsel?

2023     MR. STEWART:  Merci, monsieur le président.

2024     Just a quick follow‑up question.  You refer to cross‑cultural programming and that you intended to do some, and I believe in your application, you also mention that.

2025     Now, I don't know if you were present yesterday when there was a discussion about the definition of ethnic programming with respect to cross‑cultural programming, and I infer from your presentation and your application that you do not consider the cross‑cultural programming that you would be proposing to be ethnic programming, as defined under the policy; is that correct?

2026     MR. SANGHERA:  That is correct.  That's why we're allowing for 10 percent.  That's why we're committing to 90 percent ethnic programming, 90 percent third‑language programming.

2027     MR. STEWART:  Again, in light of the discussion of yesterday, the cross‑cultural programming that you are proposing is not ethnic programming, in your view, for what particular reason?

2028     MR. SANGHERA:  Again, first, we're not proposing cross‑cultural.  We're asking for that flexibility, just in case we do decide to do cross‑cultural, and it is our understanding that that type of programming does not fall under the criteria for ethnic broadcasting, so that's why we're allocating that in the 10 percent rather than the 90 percent.

2029     MR. STEWART:  Okay.  Fair enough. Thank you.

2030     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for your presentation.  That ends your participation in phase 1.

2031     We will take a break now and resume in ten minutes at ten o'clock with the next item.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 0955 / Suspension à 0955

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1010 / Reprise à 1010

2032     THE CHAIRPERSON:       Order, please.

2033     MR. LeBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

2034     Item 5 on the agenda is an application by CHUM Limited for a licence to operate an English language commercial FM radio programming undertaking in Vancouver.  The new station would operate on frequency 93.1 megahertz on channel 226 C1, with an average effective radiant power of 1,780 watts.

2035     Mr. Paul Ski is appearing on behalf of CHUM.  You have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

2036     MR. SKI:  Thank you.  Good morning, Mr. Chair, Madam Vice‑Chair, members of the Commission.

2037     My name is Paul Ski, and I am Executive Vice‑President of radio for CHUM Limited.

2038     Before I introduce my colleagues, I just wanted to express how personally exciting it is for me to be here today to share with you a cutting edge proposal for the future of Vancouver radio.

2039     Two years ago, I was asked to head up all of CHUM's radio operations from coast to coast, but prior to that, I spent 21 wonderful years here in Vancouver managing our local radio stations, and witnessed firsthand how this city has exploded into one of the most diverse, cosmopolitan, and diverse communities not only in Canada but maybe in the world.

2040     For some time, we have been following the emergence of the modern global music phenomena.  When we saw the call for a new radio service that would reflect the ethnocultural diversity of Vancouver, we knew this was the right time and the right place to make this groundbreaking concept, modern global radio, a reality.  The result is PlanetRadio.

2041     Before we elaborate on our proposal, however, I would like to take this opportunity to introduce the members of the team that put together this application, as well as members of our local advisory committee.

2042     Joining me today, to my far right, your left, is Roma Khanna, Vice‑President of CHUM Interactive.  Next to Roma is Peter Miller, our Vice‑President Planning and Regulatory Affairs for CHUM Limited.  To your right is Rob Farina, Program Director for CHUM FM.  Next to me is Prem Gill, Director of Multicultural Programming and Public Affairs for CHUM Television here in Vancouver.  Prem is also the Supervising Producer of the local show Ethnosonic, but most Vancouverites will know her as the host of Colour TV.

2043     In the back row this morning, starting to your right, is Kerry French, Director of Research for CHUM Radio.  Next to Kerry is Duff Roman, Vice‑President Industry Affairs, CHUM Radio.  And next to Duff are two members of our local advisory committee:  Cassandra Onyejikwe, better known in local rap and hip‑hop circles as "Ndidi Cascade," is not only an emerging artist in the process of recording her second independent album, but is also an educator and facilitator, visiting schools and community groups using her art to help build understanding and identity among Vancouver's youth.

2044     Next to Ndidi is Todd Wong.  Todd is an acknowledged cultural engineer, and in that role, has been a leader in conducting educational programs to advance cross‑cultural understanding.  Todd is perhaps best known here in Vancouver as the creator of the cross‑cultural festival Gung Haggis Fat Choy, a joint celebration of Chinese New Year and Robbie Burns Day, a festival that is geared to bridging Vancouver's various ethnocultural communities together.

2045     I also wanted to make special note that we are joined today in the audience by Jay Switzer, President and CEO of CHUM Limited, and former COO and CHUM Limited board member, Fred Sheratt.

2046     Mr. Chair, Madam Vice‑Chair, members of the Commission:  In our brief time today, we hope to share with you our vision for what we believe will be a groundbreaking new kind of radio offering, and in doing so, we plan to give you a taste of what PlanetRadio is all about, show how PlanetRadio will fill an important void in Vancouver, and explain how PlanetRadio will bring increased diversity to Vancouver and the system.  By the time we wrap up today, we hope to have answered three fundamental questions:

2047     1.  Will PlanetRadio clearly reflect the diversity of languages as well as the multicultural and multiethnic reality of Vancouver?

2048     2.  Will PlanetRadio advance the policy objectives of the Broadcasting Act?

2049     3.  Is this the best possible application for a new FM radio station, taking into account the Commission's evaluation criteria?

2050     As we will demonstrate, we believe the answer to all of these questions is "yes."

2051     MS GILL:  As Paul noted, Vancouver is one of the most diverse cities in the world.  Its residents are multicultural, multilingual, and multiethnic.

2052     I was born and raised in this city, and I am just one example of the Vancouver of today.  Like many young Vancouverites, I am Canadian and extremely proud of my cultural roots.

2053     You may be asking yourselves whether the ethnic broadcasters in this group serve people like me, first‑ and second‑generation Canadians.  The answer is no.  In my parents' kitchen, Punjabi Radio is always on.  I may listen to it when I'm visiting them and enjoy the experience.  However, when I return to my home, I'm listening to artists from all over the world, not just South Asia.

2054     For the last four years, I have been the supervising producer of Ethnosonic, Citytv Vancouver's weekly global music show.  On Ethnosonic, we explore sounds from the world's most vibrant music scenes in an effort to find new reflections of the human spirit.  The music we feature on the show is complex and dynamic and appeals to a diverse generation of Vancouverites.

2055     PlanetRadio will draw on our experience with Ethnosonic.  PlanetRadio's mission will be to seek out the best music from around the world and share it with an audience eager to experience contemporary international sounds.  PlanetRadio will be the first station in Canada to champion a genre we are calling modern global music.

2056     Musical influences are transcending geographical borders and are apparent in the eclectic sounds that are emerging from the streets of the world's urban centres.  Cities like Sao Paolo, Brazil; Ibiza, Spain; Mumbai, India; Vienna, Austria; and right here in Vancouver, you can hear everything from Aboriginal hip‑hop in East Vancouver to Bhangra music from Surrey, as well as many other groundbreaking artists who are marrying modern trends in music and production with their regional influences.  PlanetRadio will showcase these artists.

2057     Given that this is the first service of its kind in Canada, the best way to get PlanetRadio is to experience it.

‑‑‑ Video presentation / présentation vidéo

2058     MR. FARINA:  PlanetRadio will promote a growing, diverse, cutting edge Canadian music scene that, as numerous intervenors noted, receives limited airplay, if any, on conventional radio.  Instead of marginalizing their material, PlanetRadio will celebrate the works of such trailblazers as War Party, Chin Ingenti, and Kiran Aluwahlia.  In total, a minimum of 35 percent of PlanetRadio's music selections will be Canadian.  At least 50 percent of these songs will be uncharted, guaranteeing exposure for emerging artists.  Moreover, of PlanetRadio's Category 3 selections, 20 percent will be Canadian, double the regulatory minimum.

2059     In addition, CHUM will spend over a million dollars to support Aboriginal and ethnically diverse Canadian talent and the further development of modern global music in Canada.

2060     When reading the call, it was clear that this process called for applications from both third‑world language services and services that would reflect the diverse reality that is Vancouver.

2061     We are proposing a service that connects with the largest emerging group of diverse Vancouverites.  They are connected to their roots, but they live in English, and are navigating cultural experiences from around the world.  They are, in fact, the next generation Vancouverites who have been missed by both conventional commercial radio and traditional ethnic radio.  Our mission is to create a radio experience that is truly reflective of their reality.

2062     PlanetRadio will accomplish this in three ways:

2063     First, modern global music is a music format that is inherently and unabashedly diverse.  The station will take audiences on a musical journey around the globe.  Over 45 percent of the station's musical selections will come from outside of North America and a minimum of 20 percent will be in over 20 languages other than English and French.

2064     Second, building on CHUM Radio's Best Practices on Cultural Diversity, we will fully reflect the diversity that is Vancouver.  Not only will this be easily achievable in the case of a start‑up station, but given the nature of the station's format, this diversity will be central to PlanetRadio's success.

2065     Third, PlanetRadio will provide listeners with a minimum of eight hours of locally produced, culturally diverse spoken word programming each week.  The station's spoken word programming will take one of three forms:  Long‑form programming designed to promote cross‑cultural understanding; features consisting of interviews with artists from Canada and around the world which will offer valuable insight into this emerging musical genre; and news and public affairs programming focussed on issues of importance to our listeners' communities.

2066     In short, we are inviting Vancouver's youth to experience the world through music.

2067     MS KHANNA:  CHUM is a leader in connecting with today's youth on their own terms and integrating their media preferences.  With recent advancements in technology, music is being created, recorded, and shared at almost an unprecedented rate.  Today's young Canadians live in one of the most wired countries in the world.  They are technologically savvy, garner musical influences from around the globe, and connect with like‑minded people on multiple platforms.  They view themselves as members of a global community of lovers of music and culture.

2068     Since fall 2001, time spent listening to radio for Vancouver residents between the ages of 12 and 34 has declined by three hours to 15.4 hours per week.  Tuning by younger Aboriginal and ethnic Vancouverites would be even lower.

2069     To connect with Vancouver's youth, PlanetRadio will have to compete with the internet, MP3 players, online communities and blogs for its audience.  Our goal is to create a radio format that is relevant to the diverse youth of Vancouver, becomes a meaningful part of the media mix that they consume, and speaks to them directly.

2070     To do this, we will need to offer them a total experience that they are not currently finding on other media.  As well, we will need to integrate new technologies, such as the internet and wireless, to reach out to listeners and create an interactive experience and community around both the radio programming and the artists featured on PlanetRadio.

2071     MS FRENCH:  Statistics Canada data for the Vancouver CMA shows that 39 percent of Vancouver's population are either visible minorities or Aboriginal.  70 percent of visible minorities are under 45, and 37 percent of visible minorities are under 25.  The breakdown for the Aboriginal population skews even younger.  95 percent of Vancouver's young visible minority and Aboriginal population speaks English.

2072     Though these young people come from many different cultural backgrounds, they share not only a global view and a love of music, they connect in the same language:  English.

2073     At present, no radio station is dedicated to serving Vancouver's multicultural youth.  Vancouver's ethnic media may provide some programming that is of interest to younger generations of immigrants or second‑ or third‑generation youth who are more fluent in English; however, the bulk of the programming they offer is directed at an immigrant population that is looking for a link between the "new land" and the "homeland."

2074     In contrast, Vancouver's commercial radio stations cater to an audience seeking more conventional, hit‑driven playlists and programming.  While Vancouver's diverse youth do listen to these stations, given the evidence of declining hours of tuning, they're not getting everything they need.  PlanetRadio would answer that need, providing music and programming currently unavailable in the market, specifically targeting young visible minorities who define themselves simultaneously as Canadian and as members of a particular cultural community and heritage.

2075     Young Vancouverites from visible minority and Aboriginal communities want a station that reflects their contemporary Canadian experience, one that offers music and programming from multiple cultures, shifting between them and promoting a shared cross‑cultural reality.

2076     In effect, our goal with PlanetRadio is to create a station that bridges the void between traditional ethnic broadcasters and conventional commercial broadcasters.  Not only will this appropriately fill a hole in the market, it will ensure that PlanetRadio will have minimal impact on the existing commercial broadcasters or any traditional third‑language broadcasters that operate today or may be licensed in this process.

2077     MR. SKI:  The Broadcasting Policy for Canada, as set out in Section 3 of the Broadcasting Act, states that the Canadian broadcasting system should:

2078     "encourage the development of Canadian expression by providing a wide range of programming that reflects Canadian attitudes, opinions, ideas, values and artistic creativity ..."

2079     and

2080     " through its programming and the employment opportunities arising out of its operations, serve the needs and interests, and reflect the circumstances and aspirations, of Canadian men, women and children, including equal rights, the linguistic duality and multicultural and multiracial nature of Canadian society and the special place of Aboriginal peoples within that society ..."

2081     These two objectives are the basis for the Commission's quest for diversity, both from a programming or format perspective and an ethnocultural perspective.

2082     With respect to programming diversity or diversity of format, the Commission has implemented a number of policies to help achieve this goal.  For example, format diversity was highlighted as one of the potential benefits of the changes the Commission made to the radio common ownership policy in 1998.

2083     The Commission has also been clear that both traditional ethnic licensees and mainstream broadcasters have an important role to play in the advancement of cultural diversity and cultural understanding.  CHUM has a very long tradition in this area, not only through on‑air representation and leading the industry in best practices, but by making diversity central to what we do.

2084     As frequencies become scarcer in many large markets, it is increasingly important that the Commission use these opportunities to promote diversity in both senses of the word.  PlanetRadio is such an opportunity.

2085     There is a major segment of the population in this city that is young, diverse, cosmopolitan, multilingual, and, by their very nature, worldly.  Both mainstream commercial radio and traditional third‑language broadcasters have not connected with this audience.  PlanetRadio will bring diversity to both Vancouver and the system by filling this void.  CHUM's established base in Vancouver will ensure that PlanetRadio has the resources to make this happen.

2086     At the outset of our presentation, we wanted to give you a feel for the station, show where the station's listeners will come from, and demonstrate how this application will bring diversity to both Vancouver and the system.

2087     In addition, we indicated that we would try to answer three questions:

2088     1.  Will PlanetRadio clearly reflect the diversity of languages, as well as the multicultural and multiethnic reality of Vancouver?

2089     2.  Will PlanetRadio advance the policy objectives of the Broadcasting Act?

2090     3.  Is this the best possible application for a new FM radio station, taking into account the Commission's evaluation criteria?

2091     We believe the answer to these questions is a resounding "yes."

2092     In closing, Mr. Chair, Madam Vice‑Chair members of the Commission, we would like to acknowledge the over 100 interventions from ethnocultural artists, the music industry, and members of countless communities that represent the entire planet.  As you walk the streets of this city, you may notice its magnificent geography, but more importantly, you can't help but be charged by its diversity.

2093     While global music is a growing and increasingly successful genre, it is uncharted territory for the Canadian radio industry.  If there is anywhere in Canada where this type of radio station can break through, it's here in Vancouver.

2094     Clearly, the planet has come to Vancouver.  Vancouver's unity is in its diversity.  That diversity is in search of a voice, and that voice is PlanetRadio.

2095     Thank you for your time.  We look forward to your questions.

2096     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

2097     Vice‑Chair Wiley?

2098     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

2099     In your application early on at 7.6, you say that there will be 6 to 8 hours of spoken word programming, including news, and that's repeated in your supplementary brief at page 10, a minimum of 6 to 8 hours.

2100     Do I conclude from that that there could be as much as 120 hours per week of music?

2101     MR. SKI:  I believe that's correct.

2102     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  We'd like to understand a little better what this type of music, which you describe as a blend of traditional world music with modern global sounds, what the sound of the station will end up being.

2103     In your supplementary brief, at pages 1 and 8, you actually refer to some of the centres from which this music will come.  At page 8, you have Sao Paolo, Hong Kong, London, Bangalore, Seoul, Paris, Tokyo ‑‑ are some of the cities from which the music would come.

2104     Will there be any attempt to have on your playlist music that is particularly desirable ‑‑ or there is an appetite for it in Vancouver due to the majority ethnocultural groups; in other words, will there be more from Hong Kong, more from South Asia because of the cultural groups that make the Vancouver population?

2105     MR. SKI:  I'll let Rob Farina, our programmer, first of all, talk to what modern global music is, and then maybe Prem can add a little bit more about the various types of music.

2106     MR. FARINA:  Sure.  Thank you ‑‑

2107     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Well, yes, but also, an answer to the question would be, are your playlists going to be made of by reference to concentrations of ethnic populations in the area that your signal will reach?

2108     MR. SKI:  Yes, they will.  I'll let Rob expand, Commissioner.

2109     MR. FARINA:  With advancements in technology, as the Commission is well aware, the rate at which music is created and shared is unprecedented.  In this wireless age, musical expression has introduced the modern global music movement.  Modern global is a diverse genre of music that includes rock, dance, hip‑hop, world beat, acid jazz, folk, and roots.  It is contemporary music from around the world of particular interest to youth audiences.  Modern global marries new technology and current music trends and genres with indigenous sounds from different cultures.

2110     Examples of artists in this modern global genre are artists like Angelique Kidjo, who's cross‑pollinated her West African traditions of her childhood in Benin with elements of R&B, funk, and jazz, and she's now based out of France and one of the largest artists in French and records both in African and English language; Romania's Ozone, that recorded a contemporary version of a hundred‑year‑old Romanian folk song and turned it into a hit in 23 different countries throughout Europe and Asia; right here in Canada, artists like Leslie Feist, who fuses alternative folk and jazz and lounge music, and although she's still relatively unknown in Canada, she's actually nominated for a Juno award this year in the alternative music category.  Her career has taken off in Europe.  In France alone, she sold over 100,000 copies of her debut CD.

2111     Modern global music is the popular music throughout many parts of the world where the overwhelming presence of American culture doesn't dominate the indigenous music of that country.

2112     In answer to your question, "Will the music reflect the most prominent cultural groups represented here in Vancouver?"  Obviously, it's important for us to ensure that those groups are well‑represented, because they will be key to the success of this global music station.  At the same time, music, being the creative medium, is in constant flux.  It's in flux in terms of the product flow, and it's in flux in terms of what the tastes of the youth audience are in any given moment.

2113     Hopefully that answers your question as well as we can with this genre being so diverse.

2114     MS GILL:  I would just like to add, Vice‑Chair Wiley, that as much as, yes, the concentrations of the majority of the visible minorities in our city are from the South Asian community and the Asian community, as we expressed in our video and in our opening presentation, we are people who are these cultural navigators ‑‑ yes, I have a real interest in hearing music made by South Asian people from all over the world.  But, at the same time, I'm extremely interested in the sounds coming out of Brazil, the sounds coming out of Hong Kong, the sounds coming out of France, the sounds coming out of Italy; and that's what the term "modern global" is.  Is that because the majority of faces in this city, in the visible minority majority, are of Asian descent?  It does not mean that is the only music and that that needs to necessarily always be the majority of the music being played on our stations, on PlanetRadio.

2115     There's an interesting vibe that's happening in this city right now where you see, you know, a South Asian tabla player hanging out with a Scottish bagpipe player and making music together.  These are things that are actually happening in our city.  And that's sort of the fusion and the sharing of music that's going on.

2116     MR. FARINA:  Commissioner Wiley, if I could go back to your comment about 120 hours of music programming?

2117     The actual net hours of music programming is just slightly under 96 hours, and that's when we take out the components of commercials and the disc jockey talk on back cells throughout the week.

2118     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  We'll go back to the spoken word later once we get a fix on the music.

2119     In your experience, is this global world beat music also appealing to English‑language speakers who don't have an ethnic heritage?

2120     MR. FARINA:  Absolutely.  Again, the technology has really brought down the borders of music, and the growth of this music world wide, which has come from all centres of the world, really takes up increasingly more and more rack space.  Here in Vancouver, if you walk into the Virgin record store down the street, it's striking the amount of rack space in the world beat/electronica sections, and these compilations, which each of these compilations ‑‑ first of all, I must say that they're not cheap properties because they usually come in as imports.  Fusion III distribution, based out of Toronto, is the prime importer of these, and the cost of these compilations is usually in the $35 to $40 range, and they usually sell about 5,000 to 6,000 copies each, which on the surface may not sound like a big number, but it actually is a large number due to the volume of product that gets released from around the world in this genre.

2121     This music crosses all cultures and really the spirit that it's made in is in the spirit of sharing and experimenting music from diverse genres in a contemporary format.

2122     MS GILL:  And the language on our streets of Vancouver amongst the demographic that we believe PlanetRadio would appeal to is English.  I think and function in English.  I do understand other languages, but that's not the only type of music I'm looking for, isn't necessarily just in English and Punjabi.  You know, I love music from France and from South America.

2123     The key to the link here is that all of us from our diverse backgrounds ‑‑ and there's also a huge population in Vancouver of people of mixed race heritage who identify with different cultural heritages, is that English is our common link, and that's what brings us together to talk about this music from the different parts of the world.  The amazing thing about this genre of music is that it's not necessarily about the words.  It's like listening to opera or something.  It really is about the vibe of the music.

2124     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So I can conclude that what you're saying is the South Asian youth in Vancouver could be interested in music from Rome, or somewhere in Italy, just as the non‑immigrant or non‑recent‑immigrant youth or of English‑speaking heritage could be interested in music from Hong Kong and Bangalore?

2125     MS GILL:  Yes, absolutely.  I also think it's really important to note, and something that's emerging in our city, is the abundance of music from the Aboriginal community, specifically the younger generation, that they are creating their own versions of rap music, and they're actually fusing music with South Asian music.  It's like Indians playing music together from ‑‑ you know, they're different types of Indians, but that's what they all refer to themselves.

2126     So it really is a magical thing happening, that it is truly transcending borders ‑‑ as flaky as I know that sounds, but it really is happening.

2127     MR. FARINA:  Further to that, the spirit of PlanetRadio is celebrating the cultural works in an inclusive manner and in a spirit of sharing and experimentation and discovery.

2128     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  My understanding is that you're proposing 75 percent Category 2 and 25 percent Category 3 music.

2129     MR. MILLER:  Madam Vice‑Chair, we suggested that based on our reading of sub‑category definitions of Category 3, that's what it would average out to.  We'd be happy to talk about that more specifically.

2130     We also ‑‑ and I'm sure you have it ‑‑ have the conditions of licence that we proposed in the deficiency that address many of the issues that you've been alluding to, including the fact that, by committing to a minimum of 45 percent of musical selections from outside North America, plus a 35 percent Can‑con requirement, means, for example, that our U.S. selections would be limited to 20 percent of the station.  So those are the ways we approached it in our deficiencies.

2131     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  When you say 25 percent on average, what did you have in mind over what you would average in the 25 percent Category 3?

2132     MR. SKI:  Sorry, Madam Vice‑Chair, I didn't quite hear the question.

2133     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Mr. Miller repeated that, and it's in your application at 7.3, that on average ‑‑ no, it's in your deficiencies at page 7, that on average there would be 25 percent Category 3 music.

2134     I'm curious, what did you have in mind about what that would be averaged over?  A day?  A week?  A quarter?  A month?

2135     MR. SKI:  That would be averaged over a week.

2136     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Over a week.

2137     Now, your Category 2 will be 35 percent Canadian, as required by the regulations; correct?

2138     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

2139     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  And that will be Category 2 music, popular music, popular Canadian music?

2140     MR. SKI:  Not necessarily.  Some of that music could also be Category 3.

2141     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  I'm not talking about Canadian content now, I'm talking about language.  The rest of that 75 percent of Category 2 will be in English?

2142     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

2143     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  It will be international pop music in the English language.

2144     MR. SKI:  Or French.

2145     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  I understand from your response at page 5 of the deficiency that, to you, world beat and international music, that is, in a language other than English, would not be Category 2, that would be Category 3.

2146     MR. MILLER:  This was our difficulty in trying to frame and come up with useful measures and proposed conditions of licence.

2147     As we read sub‑category 33, it would include international music, certainly that is third‑language, so that would incorporate our 20 percent overall commitment; but as soon as something was a popular international track, so if it was a piece of Japanese popular music in English, it falls outside ‑‑

2148     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  In Category 3.

2149     MR. MILLER:  ‑‑ sub‑category 33, and therefore Category 3.  That was the dilemma we were trying to grapple with in coming up with appropriate conditions ‑‑

2150     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  I'm trying to understand your limitation of 20 percent only would be non‑English, non‑French.

2151     MR. MILLER:  That would be a minimum, that's correct.

2152     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So that would be then 20 percent of the 25 percent, which makes it Category 3.

2153     MR. MILLER:  No, that would be 20 percent that would fall within the average 25 percent Category 3 and fall within the 45 percent from outside North America.  So it's not ‑‑

2154     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So, Mr. Miller, what, in your view, would be the minimum or maximum non‑French, non‑English songs on this station?

2155     MR. MILLER:  We didn't define a maximum non‑English, non‑French, we just defined the minimum.

2156     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Well, 20 percent only.

2157     MR. MILLER:  Sorry, 20 percent minimum.

2158     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Non‑English, non‑French.

2159     MR. MILLER:  Twenty percent minimum non‑English, non‑French.

2160     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Only.  Is that a maximum?

2161     MR. MILLER:  If that was the way it was worded, I apologize.  What we meant to say was the 20 percent non‑English, non‑French was a minimum.

2162     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Yes, you're correct.  It's a minimum of 20 percent.  What would be the maximum then of international songs in languages other than English and French?

2163     MR. MILLER:  We haven't proposed a maximum ‑‑

2164     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  You wouldn't propose a maximum?

2165     MR. MILLER:  No, we haven't and we wouldn't.

2166     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  But they would definitely not be Category 2 if they were in a third language?

2167     MR. MILLER:  Our understanding, again, of your definitions, correct, that what you're saying is correct.

2168     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  You know why these questions are being asked.  One has to look at the ‑‑ which we'll discuss later ‑‑ is the extent to which this is a station that is mainstream or in answer to the call.  We'll get into that later.  But first we have to establish what it is that it's going to sound like, what is it going to be, and it's a bit difficult to come to terms with how many selections in a week would be in a language other than English and French or Aboriginal language.

2169     MR. MILLER:  The dilemma that you pose is exactly the dilemma we faced in trying to come up with a unique format, that as we said in our opening statement ‑‑

2170     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Have you not expected this question and come to an answer as to minimum and maximum of the languages other than the mainstream languages and Aboriginal languages?

2171     MR. MILLER:  Again, we have proposed a minimum of 20 percent.  We had not thought that a maximum would be appropriate.  If that's something you want us to think about ‑‑

2172     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So it could be as little as 20 percent of the broadcast week?

2173     MR. MILLER:  A minimum, that's correct.

2174     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Okay.

2175     MR. SKI:  Madam Vice‑Chair, as Peter was alluding to, we did have some challenges with sub‑category definitions, because when we looked at world beat and international, the description says, "This genre includes world beat music that draws heavily from the traditional music styles of countries throughout the world."

2176     And the word "traditional" sort of caught us a little bit there because the target of this radio station is young adults and youth.  I think, if you look at sub‑category 34, for instance, which is jazz and blues, that sub‑category not only covers traditional and various other types of jazz and blues but it also covers soft contemporary jazz, contemporary jazz fusion, and other contemporary and emerging jazz styles.

2177     So we had a dilemma, as Peter mentioned, because we didn't see a contemporary focus or a way to play contemporary music under that world beat sub‑category 33 category.

2178     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  And when you say that 45 percent will come from outside North America, that's measured over both Category 2 and 3?

2179     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

2180     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Now, in your application at 7.3, at the very beginning, you say that "the music will be in a variety of languages."

2181     What we have difficulty coming to terms with is to what extent will it be in English and to what extent in languages other than English?  Because you give me a minimum, but we don't know just ‑‑ considering your playlist, you've submitted, I think, three specific hours.  You don't have a sense of what an average percentage of Category 2 or both categories when it's a song, in what language it will be?

2182     MR. FARINA:  Commissioner, if it helps, out of the average week, just under 96 hours of music programming, we play 1,439 selections per week.

2183     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  One thousand four hundred ...

2184     MR. FARINA:  And thirty‑nine.  What we did was we averaged each song at about 4 minutes.

2185     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Yes.

2186     MR. FARINA:  Out of that, 288 songs a week are in languages other than English and French.

2187     We committed to reasonable distribution of non‑English and French music.  What that basically means, in simplistic terms, is one song out of five will be in a language not English or French.

2188     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Okay.  So that's the answer to what you expect the station to sound like, is for every four songs in English or French, there will be one in a language other than ‑‑ okay.  Well, that ‑‑

2189     MR. MILLER:  Part of the rationale there is a lot of these songs, either from international artists in English ‑‑ because, again, English being a common language, those international artists sometimes do sing in English; and, secondly, there's also, of course, an instrumental component.  So what we're saying is one out of five would be in languages other than English and French, but the remaining four out of five are not all going to be English and French, if you understand that.

2190     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Aren't we back to our 20 percent?

2191     MR. SKI:  We are, yes, but the 20 percent, as we mentioned, is a minimum.

2192     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  But you're telling me that's likely to be ‑‑ from the playlist you've put together, that's likely to be the sound of the planet, is 20 percent in languages other than.

2193     MR. FARINA:  What we're saying is that that is the minimum commitment.  When we looked at this format and we looked at the music and we also looked at the fact that a lot of artists ‑‑

2194     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Well, I'm not really looking at a minimum commitment.  I'm looking at whether this service will be in answer to the call, which we can get back to ‑‑

2195     MR. FARINA:  Right.

2196     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  ‑‑ and then a minimum doesn't help, right?

2197     MR. FARINA:  Okay.  Well, when we get into that ‑‑

2198     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  You keep answering a minimum, is going to be the average ‑‑ the likely sound of the station?

2199     MR. FARINA:  That's correct, Commissioner.

2200     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Now, Canadian content.  There's 35 percent for Category 2, as required by the regs.

2201     Category 3, a minimum of 20 percent.  This minimum of 20 percent is not proposed as a condition of licence, is it?  That's what you'll try to do, but it's not proposed?

2202     MR. MILLER:  We'd be happy to have it as a condition of licence ‑‑

2203     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Okay.

2204     MR. MILLER:  ‑‑ but to be clear, the 35 percent minimum commitment would also be an overall commitment.  So whatever the mix is between Category 2 and 3, we would commit to 35 percent Canadian content ‑‑

2205     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Regulation for Category 2, a condition of licence of 20 percent instead of 10.  And overall, 35 percent; is that a condition of licence?

2206     MR. MILLER:  That's correct.

2207     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

2208     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  You are now saying you're accepting this as a condition of licence?  Because if you do a calculation, out of, you say, if you have 1,039 and you calculate them separately, you get many more Canadian selections; you know that?  But 35, you're prepared to accept that as a condition of licence overall.  Okay.

2209     Because when you read the application, sometimes you speak of songs, sometimes of music selections, et cetera, so it'll be clearly 35 percent.

2210     So I think now we have a bit of a fix on the music.

2211     When you say 96 hours will be music, the rest is your news, which we can talk about in the spoken word, and also interstitial presentations of programming, all of that has been excluded to come to 96 hours.

2212     In the spoken word, all of it will be in English?

2213     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

2214     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  It will be 100 percent in English, including the interstitial, the introduction to programs, to the music, to the news.

2215     MS GILL:  It will be predominantly in English, but it would not exclude, you know, translation happening.  If there's an artist from ‑‑ you know, Angelique Kidjo, who we featured in the video, she also speaks French.  If she came and she was more comfortable speaking French or in her native tongue from Benin, we would be translating that simultaneously for our listeners.  So it doesn't exclude that there wouldn't be some sort of third language in the spoken word, but it would be predominantly in English.

2216     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  It would be incidental, as required or as needed.

2217     Now, the 6 to 8 hours includes, if I understand correctly, 3 hours of news and public affairs; right?

2218     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

2219     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  And then you get 2 hours of news.  Tell me how you arrived at 2 hours.  What I have here is two two‑and‑a‑half‑minute packages of news, 5 to 9, during the week?

2220     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

2221     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  And one four‑minute, 3 to 6, during the week, and one hour of public affairs programming on Sunday, 60 minutes.

2222     So the news calculation, how do you arrive at 2 hours?  I haven't quite made it.  Two two‑and‑a‑half‑minute packages, 5 to 9.  How does that add up for you?

2223     MR. FARINA:  Well, Commissioner, each morning we've got 20 minutes of news, which is 5 minutes each hour over 4 hours.  Then we have an additional 12 minutes of news in the afternoon drive show, which gives us daily news of 32 minutes over five days.

2224     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So you calculate then the news to fit the 5‑to‑6 hour in the morning?

2225     MR. FARINA:  Absolutely.  It's an important drive time, yes.

2226     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  I was looking at the regulatory broadcast day.  That's why perhaps I was missing that.  Because the regulatory broadcast day is 6 to midnight, so you added that in as well, and an hour of public affairs on Sunday, 60 minutes.  So that's where I had 15 times 5 instead of 20 times 5.

2227     And that includes surveillance, news, sports, all of that?

2228     MR. FARINA:  Absolutely.

2229     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  And also international news?

2230     MR. FARINA:  Yes.

2231     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So would it be like a headline news format, the usual format?

2232     MR. FARINA:  No.  Commissioner, because we're targeting a youth audience, we need to deliver that news to them in an innovative and different fashion.

2233     The news programming will be balanced between local news, with specific emphasis on topics of relevance to youth.  Those can be youth crime, technology, cultural issues, pop culture, and then the international news ‑‑ we not only have to cover world events, but we need to put some framework around those world events and deliver that information in a language that they understand.

2234     As well, part of our news makeup is investigative journalism.  Because community youth topics are not widely covered, we need to assign a reporter to research and report on stories that speak to this audience.  We also plan to use this investigative journalism as a marketing vehicle for our weekend one‑hour public affairs programming, which we've called Word on the Street.

2235     An example of the topics we would cover there is there's a growing trend in the Asian community to get plastic surgery to look more Western.  So we would do reports throughout the week on that, and different sides of the issue, in a way to drive the audience to an open discussion on the weekend, which we then support on the interactive front with a web site.

2236     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  You say in your application that the youth audience that you are targeting has a real appetite for international news and information.  Is two hours of news a week a lot or a little to meet this appetite and this apparent failing of the other radio stations to satisfy their appetite for international news and information?

2237     MR. SKI:  What we have to understand is what the target of the radio station is.  This radio station will be serving youth and young adults.  As a result of that, music is going to be the initial draw for those particular people.  It's what draws younger adults and youth to radio, and if we don't have them in the tent, obviously there's not much more that we can do.

2238     As a result of that, we felt it was important to make sure that the music was there first and then the spoken word was an added component to that.

2239     Prem can give you an idea of how that might work.

2240     MS GILL:  Basically our spoken word and our news are kind of extensions of each other.  We're looking at it all as a package.  We are the young adults, the young listeners in Vancouver.  We are information junkies, as you noted, Madame Wiley.  We are looking for information in all sorts of places.

2241     My colleague, Roma, kind of can tell you a little bit more about, you know, how much time we spend on the web looking for information.

2242     But because this is a savvy, sophisticated, very smart audience of people that ‑‑ yes, they want news and information, but if they are listening to a modern global music station, they also want more information about the artists.  That's why the other spoken word programming we've proposed in addition to the news is all about the music that they are listening to.  And this music, a lot of the world music that has come out in the past and still is, is about things happening in our world and what connects us all together.  It's almost like it's a seamless transition going from our different types of spoken word programming that, yes, it is about the music, but at the same time, it is looking at issues around the world, issues in our city.

2243     As I have been saying, there's a real buzz in this city that I don't feel when I travel around Canada and go to other places.  The uniqueness here is that, yes, I'm very interested in the election that's just happened in India, but why is it affecting my community here so much, both the South Asian community and the non‑South Asian community?

2244     So I think it's a real, yes, we want more information, but it's not just necessarily in the daily news.

2245     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So, now, you said it was 6 to 8 hours, including the 2 hours of news.  So I would be correct, then, that what you would be left with, Miss Prem, what you've just described, is 3 to 5 hours a week of complementary spoken word programming, both long form and short form?

2246     MS GILL:  Correct, yes.

2247     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  To satisfy this ‑‑

2248     MS GILL:  It would be 8 hours a week.  I think it's important ‑‑

2249     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Well, you have to ‑‑

2250     MS GILL:  A minimum of 8 hours a week.

2251     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  ‑‑ deduct the 2 hours of news.  So when I'm looking at the spoken word programming other than news, which, if you deduct the 2 hours of news, you have 3 to 5 hours a week.

2252     MR. FARINA:  Madam Commissioner, it's actually two and a half hours of news, unless you're discounting the 5 to 6 a.m. hour, because it's 32 minutes a week, Monday to Friday.  Two and a half hours.

2253     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  If you discount the 5 to 6 ‑‑

2254     MR. FARINA:  Then it's 2 hours.

2255     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Yes.  And the interstitial programming or short form would be 3 to 5 minutes in length.

2256     MR. FARINA:  That's correct.

2257     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  And the long form?

2258     MR. FARINA:  The long‑form programming is an hour in length.

2259     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  That's the hour that was included with the news that you're talking about.

2260     MS GILL:  There is a variety of long‑form programming that we've proposed.  Three of the programs that relate directly to the music are one hour each and then one hour of Word on the Street a week.

2261     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Now, how will you gather the news?  Will you use synergies from other CHUM stations in the city?

2262     MR. SKI:  That's not our intention, and it might be helpful to understand a little bit about how the three current CHUM stations operate.  They're in quite diverse formats.  One is a soft adult contemporary station, another is a sports station, and the other is a talk radio station that's targeted to women.

2263     As a result of that, those three stations are quite distinct in their approach.  There's really no crossover between one station and another in terms of the hosts.  In addition to that, our sales forces for all three of those stations are different.

2264     So I would imagine that there's the possibility of possibly a reporter covering a particular feature, and we wouldn't send two reporters to that, and that information might be brought back to the station, and at that point it would be interpreted by whoever is responsible for the information on any one of those stations, because they each have their own special character.  So it's very difficult for us to take a news story, a news feature that's done for one station and it's complementary to that station; it wouldn't be complementary to any of the other stations.

2265     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Miss Prem, the spoken word, you emphasize, is going to be very much connected to the music as interstitial, et cetera.

2266     Explain to me the ‑‑ both in your research, audience research, at page 1 it talks about trying to find the desire for multicultural talk, and you yourselves, in more than one area in your application, talk of spoken word that encourages and promotes cross‑cultural understanding.  How will that operate, considering that it'll be in English and it will be mostly connected to the music played?

2267     MS GILL:  As we noted ‑‑ you know, I'm not here, of course, to speak for all of the young people of Vancouver, but as someone who is, you know, I'm very active in the local cultural communities and the youth scene.  We talk to each other in English.  Even when I'm talking to other young South Asian people, we're not hanging out and speaking Punjabi.

2268     So I think it's important to note that, yes, the importance of cross‑cultural programming is that it is in English because that's the language that binds us together.  And when we have a program like Women In Global Music, which is one of the long‑form programs we are proposing, if we have someone ‑‑ we have a local music festival in Vancouver every year called Rock for Choice, and it features independent Canadian artists, and it's a women's music festival.  So that is, at the same time, local, but it also is ‑‑ Rock for Choice is a pro‑choice music festival.  So that creates all kinds of interesting dialogue.  And because of our desire to have our listeners involved with us, whether it's through the web or through text messaging or through any other wireless means or calling us during these shows, that's a way for us to promote that kind of dialogue.

2269     So we're not just looking at issues about culture, necessarily, always, or issues about racial things, but, you know, we are complex ‑‑ as all of us are ‑‑ we're complex people who think about all types of issues and the broad range of stuff going on in our communities.

2270     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  You have mentioned TV programs that CHUM has been successful with, such as Colour TV and Ethnosonic.  How easily can these programs be adapted or recreated for the radio medium?

2271     MS GILL:  Well, television is visual, obviously, and radio people are listening to it.  So as much as there may be elements of these programs that will inspire some of the stuff happening on PlanetRadio, the topics that we cover on ‑‑ let me sort of go back for a second.

2272      Ethnosonic, we've talked about it, we talked about it in our opening statement, is a world music video program, and it is the rhythms and the songs that people are listening and watching it for, but people watch music videos for different reasons than they listen to radio.  I mean, this whole station is building on our experience with Ethnosonic and the response that we've had from local viewers.  In that sense, yes, it's something to build on, based on our experience.

2273     I mean, our unique experience at Citytv Vancouver has been that this cross‑cultural type of programming ‑‑ and for us, it's just part of our local programming schedule, and local programming in Vancouver happens to be cross‑cultural ‑‑ is that it's just a natural extension of what's going on on the streets of our city.

2274     On Colour TV, I talk about everything from what's happening in Hollywood when it comes to portrayal of the gay and lesbian community to what's happening with the local Israeli and Palestinian communities and, you know, what they think of the cease‑fire.  There's such a broad range of topics and stories that I'm constantly being pitched for both Colour TV.

2275     Ethnosonic is a music video show, but if it was a different type of program, there's so many world music artists that are coming through our city constantly that you can't always, you know, find a place for them on television.  But with a place like PlanetRadio, you know, there's a local artist named Xavier Rudd who's huge in Australia, but he had a sold‑out concert at the Commodore Ballroom in Vancouver on Friday night, yet nobody on mainstream radio would know that.

2276     So that's part of our excitement for kind of building on our experience with our cross‑cultural programming on Citytv in Vancouver, is that there's so much potential and opportunities to extend what we've learned from our television experience on to a property like PlanetRadio.

2277     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Word on the Street on Sundays is going to be your hour of public affairs programming aimed at encouraging cross‑cultural understanding.  Who will be involved in formulating this?  Will it include open line?  Will it include youth of various ethnic groups participating?  What is it going to sound like, or is it again going to be wrapped around music, musical artists?

2278     MS GILL:  Word on the Street will actually be an extension of our news and information programming.  If this week we have looked at, as Rob mentioned ‑‑ and it sounds very strange that this idea of Asian people, who are beautiful people wanting to look more Western, this is kind of a hot topic and it's very controversial.  This could be a feature news story that was on earlier in the week on PlanetRadio, and on the weekend, we might bring in somebody who's had the surgery and not had the surgery and have the reporter who did the story also come in and ‑‑ it's an extension of what news can't necessarily always do.  We can expand on topics.

2279     Cross‑cultural understanding ‑‑ we understand each other a lot; there's just a lot of complexities and sameness and cultural issues that we're all dealing with that a program like Word on the Street can be just another link, instead of sort of having, you know, programming kind of segregated and, "Okay, I'm going to have the Punjabi hour now and we're going to talk about issues for young South Asian women in the Punjabi community," well, our issues are actually the same or very similar to someone in the Korean community or someone in the Aboriginal community, that we all are kind of dealing with the same kind of reality.  It's not necessarily linked to our cultural heritage at all times.

2280     MS KHANNA:  The other thing, Madam Vice‑Chair, to keep in mind, in terms of building the stories and building the discussion, is taking this multi‑platform approach that's very integral to the lifestyle of people in this demographic under 35, so the idea of using the internet as a forum for discussion, a forum to raise issues, to let debates rage in a more open sense, and then to cull from that the most interesting discussion and bring that to the on‑air environment is going to be an integral part of how we look at this radio station format.

2281     You were speaking earlier to the idea of how do you satisfy the appetite for world news of this young demographic.  Well, when you look at a really complex media mix, and the complex media mix that they consume, there's this concept of efficiency of medium.  What medium does what best?

2282     FM radio is fantastic for music, and the internet is fantastic for discussion and debate.  So it's not that the discussion and the news doesn't take place on the radio signal itself, but it is complemented by the other experiences that we're going to build into PlanetRadio, because we're trying to make this reflective of the actual culture of the first‑generation lifestyle.  A lot of these young people, myself being one included, don't speak their native language fluently.  In fact, I speak French better than I speak Hindi and Punjabi, and that's because I'm Canadian and I studied French for many years.

2283     So we're trying to bring in this multifaceted approach to the discussion.  I think it's going to be very important.

2284     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Now, I'd like to discuss with you the perceived demand for the planet, and you filed an audience ‑‑ Research International Inc. ‑‑ study.  In the very first paragraph, it talks about Ottawa.  Should that have been Vancouver?

2285     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

2286     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  People interviewed were between the ages of 13 and 44.  I love people who think 44 is youth.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

2287     MS GILL:  Madonna is 47 now, and she's pretty youthful.

2288     MR. SKI:  There are many of us on this panel who agree with you, Madam Vice‑Chair.

2289     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Ever since we started chatting, we've talked about youth and it's everywhere in your application.  Only older people think of 44 as youth.

2290     What is your core target audience?  Even in that study, we have, on page 4, 13 to 17, 18 to 24, 25 to 34, and 35 to 44, looking at a result of listeners.  What is going to be your core audience?

2291     MR. SKI:  The core audience essentially is 13 to 34.  We see that as youth and young adults.

2292     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So 13 to 34.  It doesn't mean you're not going to get some beyond, but that will be more your target.

2293     How does that make your study meaningful since it introduces 506 residents of Vancouver between the ages of 13 and 44?  How do you measure demand for this type of music and also the value to be ascribed to the fact that they don't feel served by the radio stations in the market at the moment?

2294     MR. SKI:  It might be prudent to understand the type of radio station this is, since it's not essentially a mainstream format or a mainstream station.

2295     Most mainstream radio stations have a fairly large core audience.  We call those people P‑1s or primary listeners.  This radio station, being more of a niche format, has a much smaller P‑1 or a much smaller core audience.

2296     Having said that, this type of radio station can be the second, third, or fourth choice for people.  So the peripheral listening, the listening that goes beyond the core listening, is much larger to a station of this nature than it would be to a station that's much more mainstream, that needs to live off of a larger core.

2297     I think, when we asked people about this particular type of station in the audience research, I think almost 80 percent said there wasn't a radio station of this type within the city.  So we were quite enthused by that.

2298     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Now, somewhere else you say as well that in your view, youth has abandoned mainstream radio.  But if we look at the results of the recent BBMs, Fall '04, there are stations in Vancouver offering formats that are appealing to youth and get very, very good shares between the 12 and 24 and also the 25‑34.  For example, CFBT, a standards station, CKZZ and CFOX, they rank very high in Vancouver and they have formats that appeal to young people from the BBM results.

2299     So how do you explain this conclusion that the young people in Vancouver are not served?

2300     MR. SKI:  I'll let our research director, Kerry French, comment on that.  But in a market the size of Vancouver, the fact that only three radio stations are responsible for approximately ‑‑ and I don't have the numbers you have in front of you ‑‑ but possibly 50 percent of the listeners actually shows that there's not much competition for younger people.  It shows the reverse.

2301     Kerry may want to comment on youth and the fact that, as she mentioned earlier, tuning in this particular market, in the Vancouver market, is down by about three hours for youth and young adults.  Even though they're still listening to some of the radio stations, certainly, tuning is on the decline.  It's that way across Canada; that's not just in Vancouver.  We just happen to see this particular format as a way to bring youth and young adults back to the radio band.

2302     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Yes.  At page 3 of demand research, it's 13 to 44, it's 50 percent of 13 to 44 is served by four radio stations.  But I was looking at the ratings for the younger audiences that will be your core market, and standard stations format, and CFOX and CFBT have formats that obviously get shares among the 12 to 34.

2303     MS FRENCH:  Madam Vice‑Chair, if I can just try and frame that.

2304     We say that youth are abandoning radio.  They're not totally abandoning it.  What's happening is, generally, listening to radio across the country overall is maintaining the same level and has been for many years.  It's this one group of individuals, generally under 34, who are tuning less.  The tuning curve is going downhill.  This has been happening over a period of about 10 years.  But over the past couple of years, if we go back to fall 2001, the average number of hours spent with radio per week in this demo has gone down 3 hours.  That's a significant drop.

2305     The three stations that you mentioned that do target this demo, yes, they're getting decent shares, but the share is of a declining pie.

2306     We believe that one of the reasons the decline is happening is that we, as broadcasters, aren't serving them properly, and particularly the group that we're targeted with PlanetRadio, the young multiculturals.  We see, as Roma mentioned before, they're consuming media on multiple platforms.  They're finding news, information, and music through the internet.  What we need to do as broadcasters is to stop that decline and try and bring those hours back up, and the only way we can do that is to offer them something innovative, something that they're searching for out there that they're not finding on radio.

2307     MR. SKI:  We might ask two members of our advisory committee to maybe comment on that too, Madam Vice‑Chair.

2308     MR. WONG:  Hi.  My name is Tom Wong, and I've been working with many community organizations providing community programming for Asian Heritage Month, the Dragon Boat Festival, the Vancouver Public Library, Word on the Street ‑‑ they're searching for how to grab the youth.

2309     What we find is, everybody is looking for ways to express our own ethnic cultures.  So we search on the internet for that.  A lot of it goes word by mouth, but we don't find it on mainstream radio.

2310     For myself growing up, listening to mainstream radio, we all wanted to be rock singers or whatever else.  But part of it is, we didn't find people representing our own ethnic cultures.  We're finding that more and more now.  Kid Koala Kiran Aluwahlia ‑‑ we find our ethnic voice out in song but we can't find it on radio very often.

2311     So I think what PlanetRadio is proposing really touches us, and it's been great meeting Ndidi Cascade here, because she's involved with Black History Month, and we're finding all these similarities of expressing our identity, the quest for Canada's youth to find that identity, that sense of belonging, we find also in other communities, that they've gone through the struggles, they go through the same issues, and we find that our communication is through the English language.

2312     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  You have also filed some market research.  At page 12 it says that:

2313     "Based on tuning assumption, CHUM has projected the advertising revenues for the new station."

2314     And your tuning assumptions were filed as an attachment to the deficiency letter, and it projects, in year 1, a 3 percent share, and in your seventh, 4 percent share.

2315     Now, we've had this discussion with another applicant earlier.  What are these market hours?  What do they represent?

2316     I have in year one 3,451,000 market hours and then station hours of a million, and I don't get 3 percent.

2317     MR. SKI:  I'll let Kerry take you through those numbers.

2318     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  What are the hours?

2319     Also, I'd like to ‑‑ we'd like you to address, as you explain how you got your share, what is the audience that you are putting into your tuning assumptions?

2320     In that market research at page 2, it says that it won't be limited to ethnic groups.  Other Vancouver listeners in the 13‑48 group ‑‑ I gather non‑ethnic or mainstream population ‑‑ and at page 12, from this target group, which includes the mainstream, I guess, your tuning shares were calculated.

2321     So how was it calculated and what audience, as between ethnic and non‑ethnic, was put into those hours?

2322     MS FRENCH:  Madam Vice‑Chair, if I can first explain the numbers, the projected numbers that we came up with were based on the Spring 2004 BBM numbers, and we looked at the total hours of tuning in the market at ‑‑

2323     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Hours of tuning in the Vancouver radio ‑‑

2324     MS FRENCH:  Yes, Vancouver CMA as 34 million.

2325     We looked at this from a couple of perspectives.  The total tuning that we expect in our first year is about a million hours, which translates to 3 percent of the total radio tuning to any radio station in Vancouver.

2326     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So a million station hours.

2327     MS FRENCH:  Yes.

2328     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Have you an idea of how that will break down between ethnic and mainstream?

2329     MS FRENCH:  We fully expect, although there isn't an actual way to quantify this totally, but we expect it'll be about 60/40:  60 from the multicultural communities and 40 percent from non‑visible minorities.  We project that from our experience and also from the available pool of listeners.

2330     As you mention, our economic report, it states that 39 percent of Vancouver's population 15 to 44 ‑‑ and we use that 44, very simply, because it's a Stats Can break.  They don't break that at 34.

2331     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Yes.  So when you talk about 60 ethnic, 40 mainstream, how does that work with your market research at page 1, the third paragraph, where it states:

2332     "A station that would be aimed at people of diverse ethnic origins."

2333     So that aim would be 60 percent.  The other 40, it would also be aimed at the mainstream.

2334     MR. MILLER:  Madam Vice‑Chair, Kerry will get through some of the precision, but there's two things I just want to point out.

2335     First of all, this is a top‑down piece of research, and then we did our own bottom‑up research that was used for our specific financials.

2336     The point that we're trying to say here and that reflects in that 60/40 split is, in our target demographic, they represent Aboriginal and ethnic Vancouverites, about 39 percent of that demographic in Vancouver.  So when we look at the format that we're proposing, we will, in a sense, overrepresent that make‑up, but we acknowledge that, by virtue of the whole format ‑‑ and we think it's a good thing ‑‑ that non‑Aboriginal, non‑ethnic Vancouverites in that younger adult‑youth demo will also find it interesting.

2337     So our sense, and it's hard to be precise, is that's how you end up with that 60/40 split.

2338     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Now, let's look at the sources of your expected revenues.  You have, in answer to a deficiency question at page 4 of your response, put down the sources of your revenues, a percentage expected.

2339     What are the other radio stations that you expect to draw 20 percent of your revenue from?  Are they the ones that I suggested were aimed at youth?

2340     MR. SKI:  They are partially, Madam Vice‑Chair, but when we did our calculations ‑‑ and Kerry can provide you with more detail on that ‑‑ I think that, since we expected less than maybe 5 percent of the tuning, that 5 percent of the dollars might come from those particular radio stations; but, again, because we think that this will be, as we mentioned earlier, a second, third, or fourth choice of people who are listening to the radio, that's why we don't see much of an impact on those radio stations.  On any one of them, I think the maximum, according to our estimates, would be about 5 percent.

2341     Kerry may want to ‑‑

2342     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Five percent of any one ‑‑

2343     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

2344     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  ‑‑ of your expected revenues in your projections would come from one station?

2345     MR. SKI:  Correct.

2346     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  The multicultural media, 10 percent, what is that?

2347     MS FRENCH:  I think, Madam Vice‑Chair, the current available choices to reach these visible minority youth, it's hard to target them specifically because most of the ethnic media have a wider demographic, so it becomes very expensive and difficult to really zone in on the core of the audience that we're going to attract.  So I think there will be cases where people who would normally advertise on whatever ethnic media they choose to in this market would look at us as an addition to what they do.

2348     So in both cases, in the cases of the radio stations and the other ethnic media, we wouldn't necessarily take advertisers totally away of them.  We would become part of their advertising mix.  So we would be taking part of the pie.

2349     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Now, I think we have a ‑‑ at least I have a better sense of what the plan will sound like, so it will be all spoken word, but for incidental spoken word, will be in English.  You expect your audience to be 60 percent ethnic and 40 percent mainstream.  When asked if this music would appeal to mainstream English heritage, you very enthusiastically answered "Absolutely."

2350     So, of course, the question that this raises:  To what extent does this application respond to the call?

2351     Now, the call, as you know, was triggered by an ethnic application, and the response, and you consistently repeat, that it will be, as required by the call:

2352     " ... radio programming that clearly reflects the diversity of languages ... "

2353     I have difficulty seeing the extent to which it will reflect the diversity of languages given the very small amount of song selections that will be in languages other than English and French, plus all the spoken world, the interstitial connecting.  Where is the reflection of languages?

2354     MR. MILLER:  Madam Vice‑Chair, I will start.

2355     Again, we saw the call as a call for services that reflect diversity, and we took it that by deliberately not making a call for ethnic applications, the Commission invited parties to come up with different ways of reflecting that diversity.  Some of the discussions we've had, including Madam Pennefather's discussion on cross‑cultural programming yesterday, shows that while cross‑cultural English‑language programming that targets different cultural groups may have public policy value, it doesn't fall within the definition of ethnic programming or the ethnic broadcasting policy.

2356     What we took from this call, however, is that you acknowledge that there are other ways of doing it, by serving the Aboriginal community, for example, or different communities, and the three‑part test, if you will, of reflecting the diversity of languages as well as the multicultural and multiethnic reality, was the way we looked at it.  We looked at it as a three‑part test.

2357     In terms of reflecting the diversity of languages, we think that 20 percent minimum commitment in our music is a very significant commitment because, again, given that our target audience is a very sophisticated, younger audience, and we're trying to reach them through the universal language of music, that that was the right level and that showed clear response to that need for diversity of languages.

2358     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  It must be the universal language of music, because your Category 2 music is going to be 75 percent of 96 hours of music, and a relatively small proportion of that will be in languages other than music.  So you would have to say that music is language diversity reflection, even if the songs are in English and also the interstitials and all the material in between.  You feel it still fits reflection of languages?

2359     MR. MILLER:  Very much so, and I'd invite some of our other members of the team to reflect on that.

2360     MS KHANNA:  We have to remember, when we're looking at first‑generation youth around the world, they often are singing in English, even though the music is garnering its influences from their home culture.

2361     I'll give you an example of a band out of the U.K. called Cornershop, which a lot of young people will be very familiar with because they're a fantastically talented group.  They have traditional sitars in their music, tabla music.  The idea of being named Cornershop is reflective of the experiences of South Asian youth living in the U.K., yet everything they sing is sung in English.  They use quarter‑tone scale in some of their singing, which is a South Asian influence but, again, the actual words that they're singing are actually in English.

2362     So that's the type of music that may make up some of the English‑language programming.

2363     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  All the other applications we have before us for this frequency are specialty licences, specialty applications, and they are ethnic.

2364     How easy would it be for an experienced broadcaster like CHUM to morph this into an absolutely mainstream radio station that is not that different from the urban dance type of application that we have heard in the last few years?

2365     MR. SKI:  I think I'll start, Madam Vice‑Chair, by saying, as we mentioned, we struggled with this a little bit when we were putting together the application, just because ‑‑

2366     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  So did I.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

2367     MR. SKI:  Well, let me see if I can help.

2368     When we looked again at the sub‑categories, world beat and international, sub‑category 33, and I touched on this earlier, we just felt that we couldn't put a contemporary radio station on the air that reached youth and young adults given the descriptors of the type of music that we would have to play in order to do that, whereas the jazz sub‑category is quite different.

2369     What we thought we would do, and since this particular format is unknown and quite different, although it's a very exciting new format, we think, that will end up in probably several markets across the country, we wanted to give some comfort and so we proposed conditions of licence that would make it necessary for us to stay in that particular format.  One is 45 percent of the music.  We'll start with that.

2370     Forty‑five percent of our music is coming from outside of North America; secondly, 20 percent of the music will be in a language other than English or French; and 35 percent of the music will be Canadian, and half of that will be uncharted.

2371     If you take a look at the music that's going to be played from outside of North America, and essentially that would be music that's not produced and recorded in the U.S., the remaining amount, I believe, is about 20 percent.  It's pretty difficult to mount a radio station or to put a radio station on the air where 20 percent of the music is from the United States, whereas, on the other hand, most of the mainstream radio stations, I would guess ‑‑ and I know we've done a little bit of an analysis ‑‑ but 95 percent of the music that they play would be from the U.S.

2372     So there's quite a difference between 95 percent, 90‑95 percent, and that remaining 20 percent if, in fact, it was all from the U.S.

2373     I think Rob has some other figures that he calculated also.

2374     MR. MILLER:  Just to give the Commission some framework, the current Billboard Chart, dated February 26, the Hot Hundred Singles Chart, not one song originating from outside of North America in the top 40.

2375     When we expand it to the entire hundred songs on the chart, only two artists are from outside of North America, and both are rock artists.

2376     In Canada, we looked at the Canadian Music Network Chart for the top 40 playlists, dated also the week of February 26 ‑‑ my apologies, dated the week of February 13th ‑‑ that issue wasn't out yet.  Of the top 40 songs, only one song originated from outside North America.

2377     As a final illustration, we took a look at the Top 40 station here in Vancouver, CFBT, and we looked at the playlist of the top 40 spins and found not one song in the top 40 spins of that radio station was from a song that originated from outside North America.

2378     I think that's important to illustrate because there's a notion that on the top 40 charts there's a mix of the most popular music from around the world.  But because of the huge influence of American culture we're not seeing that diversity of this music that is, you know, getting airplay and garnering large audiences all over the world, it isn't really being played.  And these artists, when they do come to markets like Vancouver or markets like Toronto, they'll play G.M. Place or the Air Canada Centre, and it will be under the radar of the mainstream media, yet these artists sell out these huge arena shows with no airplay, yet a fan base exists under the radar.

2379     These are the cultural navigators we want to reach.  These are the people we want to repatriate to our medium.

2380     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  My last question is, the commitments you were prepared to accept as conditions of licence is somewhat different from what is in the application.

2381     Would you take your response in the deficiency letter at page 7, and then we'll go over them to make sure we understand what today's commitments are.

2382     At the bottom of page 7.

2383     "To ensure we achieve what we are proposing, we will also commit to the following conditions of licence:"

2384     So 45 percent of musical selections will come from outside North America.

2385     MR. SKI:  That's correct.  I should mention, these are all minimums.

2386     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  And 35 percent of musical selections will be Canadian, and 50 percent of those songs.  So you have now said 35 percent Canadian overall, so we should remove the word "songs"; correct?

2387     MR. SKI:  Correct.

2388     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Thirty‑five percent of all musical selections will be Canadian?

2389     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

2390     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Okay.  So that will cover 2 and 3.  For that purpose, we remove "songs," because some of the music won't be.

2391     And then 50 percent of the songs will be uncharted?

2392     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

2393     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Okay.  And 20 percent of all musical selections will be in languages other than English and French?

2394     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

2395     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  That will cover Category 3, and pop music as well, despite the concern, Mr. Miller, you have, that if it's in English, then it's not Category 3, right?  So what exactly is this?  Is this of all musical selection?

2396     MR. MILLER:  It is 20 percent of all musical selections, but in reality, that 20 percent would probably come out of the Category 3 selections.

2397     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Category 3, because the others will be pop, in Category 2.

2398     Now, of course ‑‑ oh, yes, another question:

2399     At 6.2 of your application, you have ticked off SCMO, as use of SCMO.  Do you have a deal already?

2400     MR. MILLER:  I have to assume that was a mistake.

2401     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Or is that just saying that you will have that or you will use it or what?  It's at 6.2 of the application form ‑‑ well, if you're not answering, you obviously don't have a deal already.

2402     MR. SKI:  That's correct.

2403     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Okay.  I was wondering if maybe you have one of the languages and so on.

2404     Now, everybody has asked why you should get this coveted frequency, and I'd like you to put into the mix, everything else being equal, the extent to which it responds to the call, which, unlike other situations, was triggered by an ethnic application and narrowed by the Commission.

2405     MR. SKI:  Madam Vice‑Chair, let me first of all say that we think that this is a new, innovative format, it appeals to the global music sensibilities and multiple identities of Vancouver's highly diverse youth, and it will appeal and reflect both the multicultural heritage and urban reality of being a young Vancouverite, and I think you've heard from some of the young Vancouverites here on the panel.

2406     What we want to do ‑‑

2407     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Including you.

2408     MR. SKI:  Yes, including me.  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

2409     I appreciate that.

2410     What we're trying to become here is a meaningful part of the media mix that these young adults actually consume.

2411     There was an interesting comment from Sam Feldman, who is a local manager, he manages Diana Krall and Joni Mitchell and others, in the Vancouver Province on Sunday, which was, I think, quite instructive.  He said there isn't one station in Vancouver that reflects the soul of the city.  And that's what we want to do.

2412     Let me be more specific.  We think it's a new, innovative approach that reflects diversity and fills a void between traditional ethnic radio stations and commercial radio stations.  Why is that?  If you tune to an ethnic station, you tune by the hour for various programs and different languages, whereas with ours, as we've said, I think, the unity is in the diversity.

2413     This particular station targets ethnic and Aboriginal and youth, a demo that has increasingly abandoned commercial radio and is not well‑served by ethnic radio.  These younger people are culturally fluid, more fluid certainly than the first generation.

2414     It combines the full support of Canadian talent ‑‑ 35 percent Can‑con, as we have said ‑‑ and significant Canadian talent development funds.

2415     In addition, I think we made a conscious effort to tell you how diverse, first of all, the music would be, the spoken word, and, of course, the staffing.

2416     We think the station will add diversity, and not just add diversity, but embrace it and express it in a number of different ways.

2417     COMMISSIONER WYLIE:  Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.

2418     

2419     Mr. Roman and I are delighted to be so young.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

2420     Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

2421     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Just a few follow‑up questions, Mr. Ski.

2422     I'm turning to your presentation today, page 6.  You refer at the second paragraph to the decline in 12 to 34 listening, and I was trying to compare the 3 hours to 15.4 with your supplementary brief, page 18, where you indicate an 11.9 drop in that period over Canada, and you said a similar decline in Vancouver.  Could you help me with the math there?

2423     MR. SKI:  I'll ask Kerry to explain that to you, Mr. Chair.

2424     MS FRENCH:  I think, Mr. Chair, what we're looking at are time frames.  When we looked at the Fall 2001 BBM, the tuning by 12 to 34s was 18.4 hours a week.

2425     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Pardon me?  18.4?

2426     MS FRENCH:  Yeah.  And it's down to 15.4, and that's the difference of 3 hours per week.

2427     THE CHAIRPERSON:  The footnote in your supplementary brief, you refer to 2001 as the starting point there.  It just says BBM surveys, so perhaps you chose a different time frame.  But the math I don't think works if you use the 11.9 or anything like it.

2428     Do you know what period you're using in the supplementary brief?  What 2001 survey were you using?

2429     MS FRENCH:  It could have been Spring.  Let me just double‑check that.

2430     What page were you referring to in the supplementary?

2431     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Page 18.  This suggests that it meant up in 2001, in the fall, and then came down, suggesting more of an up‑and‑down.

2432     MS FRENCH:  I think the difference there is per capita.  There's a difference between average and per capita.  With average, you're looking at the number of people actually tuning to radio, divided into the total number of tuning; whereas per capita means the population.

2433     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.

2434     MS FRENCH:  That's where the difference may be, because radio, in this demo, doesn't reach 100 percent of a demographic group.

2435     THE CHAIRPERSON:  What would have been the two reference points of which 11.9 is the decline?

2436     MS FRENCH:  We're talking about 11.9 percent?

2437     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  Per capita tuning doesn't mean hours?

2438     MS FRENCH:  Yes, it means per capita, meaning the total population ‑‑

2439     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Perhaps you could just, rather than us kind of search here, just reconcile those two numbers, if you could?

2440     MS FRENCH:  Yes, certainly.  We would be happy to do that.

2441     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Then further on that page, at the bottom, you quote the under 45 percent of visible minorities.  Then under 25, your demographic is, of course, a 34 to 12.  So do you have the 35, under 35, number for that?

2442     MS FRENCH:  As I said before, the Stats Can break for visible minorities is 24 and then 44.

2443     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, I see.

2444     MS FRENCH:  They don't have a 34 bracket.

2445     THE CHAIRPERSON:  They didn't have a 34.

2446     So it's impossible to really estimate it by splitting the difference between 37 ‑‑ so you just don't have that information.

2447     MS FRENCH:  We could do that estimate for you.

2448     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, no.  It was just interesting to try and figure it out.  You know, the fundamental question here is, is this the appropriate application to address what appears to be a major gap in the radio market in Vancouver?  We have the South Asian population of 20‑plus percent, the hours currently in Vancouver radio serving them ‑‑ somewhere in the 5 to 7 percent range ‑‑ and we have applicants, who are like Prem Gill's mother, I suppose, who are listening to that radio and who are underserved by the normal standards we would use.  Particularly in view of your demographic and your format, this clearly doesn't serve that particular community.  I guess that's the uphill battle that you're facing in this particular proceeding.

2449     MR. MILLER:  Mr. Chair, I don't think we see it as an either/or proposition.  I think Roma hit the nail on the head when she talked about the efficiency of the use of that frequency and that FM station.  Obviously an FM station is predominantly music‑oriented, and what we're saying is, the underserved younger adult Aboriginal and ethnic audience is itself a very underserved niche.  It's the void between commercial and whatever.

2450     We would fully imagine that some of the more targeted South Asian applications you have before you would also warrant licensing.

2451     MS GILL:  Just a note on my mother for a moment?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

2452     THE CHAIRPERSON:  You raised her first.

2453     MS GILL:  Mrs. Gill is a lovely woman.  She's a fabulous cook, although she made chicken ‑‑

2454     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Williams says, no, she raised you.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

2455     MS GILL:  The really neat thing that's happening is that my mother ‑‑ Roma mentioned Cornershop, and my mother loves Cornershop because ‑‑ not necessarily that she relates to the music, but when she first saw the videos on MuchMusic even up to four years ago, it was, like, "Who are these young South Asian guys?"  And they're finding their own place in the so‑called new lands.  I think that's part of, you know, maybe the older generation's seeing younger people involved in mainstream media and just really having a sense of pride for that community and wanting to really see it.

2456     The other night at my parents' place watching the Academy Awards, and the one of the nominees for a short film was a young South Asian man, and sitting next to him was a South Asian woman in a sari; and my mother was like, "Oh, my god, that's so wonderful.  We need to see more of that."  That's what we're missing in the mainstream media sometimes, is that, you know, we are the mainstream in a sense.

2457     We talk about the mainstream, we talk about the ethnic, but really the visible minority and Aboriginal communities in Vancouver are ‑‑ we are going to be emerging more and more into the mainstream, and there's a real sense of that pride that my parents or even my grandparents, for that matter, really want to see us sort of connecting ‑‑ it's sort of the middle ground between the commercial mainstream radio and the ethnic radio.  They're seeing something happening in the middle, and they have an interest in that.

2458     And she's a good cook, really.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

2459     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for your presentation, an interesting application.

2460     Commissioner Langford?

2461     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Just a quick question kind of into the realm of, did you ever think of this as an alternative?

2462     It occurs to me that CHUM, being a pretty professional crowd, you must have looked at almost every format opportunity before you settled on this one, or while you were settling on this one.  You know how the game is played, and you're in every market in Canada and you know how to read a public notice, as you demonstrated today, and you've brought a lot of enthusiasm to this, and I don't want to, in any sense, say, well, I'm just sweeping that off the table.

2463     But in looking at some of these other formats, I wonder if it occurred to you to use some of the resources you've already got differently?  Because we've got quite a few applications here for AM radio stations, and you've got two of them already, none of which is setting the world on fire in the sense of market share, as most AMs aren't these days.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

2464     And here's this great opportunity in this great market that you and everyone else has identified, and did it ever occur to you to change the format ‑‑ perhaps not to this exact format that you've demonstrated today, but to some format that would serve this underserved market?

2465     MR. SKI:  You're asking why we didn't change one of our existing stations to this particular format?

2466     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Mm‑hmm.  I mean, you've got what a lot of people who are here this week would love to have.  You've got it twice.  You've got two AM stations which, according to the fall returns, have fairly small market shares ‑‑ as many AMs do.  I don't say that to be critical, but it's just the reality of life.

2467     Did it occur to you, in your strategic planning for these applications, to perhaps reorient one of your AMs that you have along a different line to serve this underserved market?

2468     MR. SKI:  We do have two AMs, as you mentioned, and I tend to think they are starting to set the world on fire.  I'm not saying that just because I believe the manager of our station is in this room.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

2469     But in part because I was maybe instrumental in changing the format of those radio stations.

2470     It is a little difficult on the AM band, but we're probably as successful or have become successful and are becoming even more successful with these two radio stations.  These radio stations, both CFUN and The Team, in fact I think are ‑‑ the revenue that they produce is revenue that's higher than the revenue that this particular station will produce.  It's taken a long while to build that up.

2471     When you're able to build on AM any kind of a franchise, and normally that franchise is going to be some type of spoken word, whether it's talk or sports or some other format, and develop that psychological affiliation with the audience, now is not the time for us, we believe, to throw that away.  We really believe that these two radio stations, that are quite different ‑‑ and although the ratings of those particular radio stations have not set the world on fire, it doesn't really matter because when you have a talk format or a sports format, those particular types of radio stations perform better from a revenue standpoint than if the share was the same on a non‑talk, non‑sports station.  I think we've talked about power ratios previously.  And that's an example of it.

2472     These two stations, although the ratings may be here, the revenue can be here, and it's growing.  It grows every year.

2473     So that's the first point.

2474     I think the second point is we have to remember who the target audience is for this particular radio station.  The target audience is youth and young adults.

2475     We're probably not going to bring them back to the radio on the AM band.  Not when they have so many other choices that are all digital.  It's one of our challenges that's been talked about before.  If we don't have the same type of sound that you can get on an FM or the same type of sound or sound quality that these younger people can get from their i‑Pods, MP3s, then they won't tune to the radio station.

2476     COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thanks very much.  That's my question.

2477     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

2478     That completes your participation in phase 1.

2479     We will break now and resume at 1:00 p.m.  Nous reprendrons à 13 h 00.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1203 / Suspension à 1203

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1305 / Reprise à 1305

2480     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.

2481     Mr. Secretary.

2482     MR. LeBEL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

2483     Item 6 on the agenda is an application by I.T. Productions Ltd. for a licence to operate a commercial AM ethnic radio programming undertaking in Vancouver.  The new station would operate on frequency 1200 kilohertz, with a transmitted power of 25,000 watts.

2484     Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Sudhir Datta.

2485     I will ask him to introduce his colleagues.

2486     You have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

2487     MR. DATTA:  Thank you.

2488     Mr. Chair and Members of the Commission, my name is Sudhir Datta and I am the General Manager of IT Productions.

2489     Before proceeding with our formal presentation, please allow me to introduce the panel that has joined Shushma Datt and myself today.

2490     At this table, starting to my right, is Shavilla Singh, a former broadcast journalist with Fiji Broadcasting for 32 years and IT Productions director of Special Programming since 1988.

2491     To my left is the President and founder of IT Productions, Ms Shushma Datt.

2492     Next to her is our legal counsel, Mr. Chris Weafer of Owen Bird, who has been with us for 17 years.

2493     Simmi Cheema joined us in 1995 as Director of Punjabi Programming.  She is fluent in Punjabi, Urdu, Hindustani and English.

2494     Behind Shavilla Singh is Manu Chopra, who joined us from Grey (Advertising) Worldwide in 2003 to head our Creative and Marketing Department and is fluent in Punjabi, Hindustani and English.

2495     Gobinder Gill, also of Punjabi Sikh heritage, has a 24‑year career in broadcasting with Vancouver's CJVB, CBC and Fairchild before becoming our Advertising and Accounts Manager a year ago.

2496     Sonia Lotay, who joined IT Productions in 1998 as a graduate from UBC.  She is our Director of Youth Programming and is fluent in Punjabi, Hindustani and English.

2497     Shankar Roy, a chartered accountant for 25 years, became our CFO in 2001.

2498     Lee Davis, President of Vancity Capital, is our banker.  And Grant McCormick is our Technical Advisor.

2499     I would like to identify a number of our language producers, some of whom are in the audience.

2500     Vito Bruno, our Italian language producer, who we have worked with since 1978; Balan Balasothy, the producer of our Tamil language programming and producer of the long running Tamil show on the Shaw Multicultural Channel; Belal Azizi, our producer of Farsi and Pushto programming; Ron Durana, an accomplished performing artist who is our Filipino producer; Sumita Roy, our Bengali producer ‑‑ an experienced Indian broadcaster and film maker; Harinderjit Singh Sandhu and Pankaj Shah, who has been our Gujarati producer for the past 11 years.

2501     Unfortunately, Naheed Karim, our news director since 2003, is unable to attend today as she is attending to a family emergency in Pakistan.

2502     Mr. Chair and Members of the Commission, it is our privilege to appear today to request approval for IT Productions to operate a licensed AM radio undertaking to serve Vancouver.

2503     IT Productions has been proudly serving Greater Vancouver's many and diverse South Asian communities for 17 years.

2504     Our 17‑year success has been built on deep‑rooted commitments:

2505     (a) to produce balanced and responsible programming that consistently respects all views and values;

2506     (b) to forge close, respectful working relationships with Greater Vancouver's ethnic communities; and

2507     (c) to build a tested and trusted professional broadcasting team that can sustain a financially viable radio station for today's ethnic market.

2508     Our success has been led by Shushma Datt, who has shown remarkable vision and determination in her quest for responsible broadcasting for our region's ethnic communities.  Let me openly declare that she is also my mother.

2509     But, as importantly today, she is also an astute business partner and as former B.C. Premier Mike Harcourt said in his intervention letter, she has been a positive force in the community for the past 25 years.

2510     I am very proud to have worked for her and with her in our business, building it to the point where we are ready to move to the AM band in Vancouver.

2511     Shushma Datt will expand on our plans for such an undertaking.  But first, we would like to start with a video presentation.

‑‑‑ Video presentation / Présentation vidéo

2512     MS DATT:  Good afternoon.  I am Shusma Datt.

2513     Let me begin by thanking you for the opportunity to put forward our vision for a new stable and successful broadcasting endeavour in Greater Vancouver.

2514     In our presentation we will highlight the mission/vision for this proposed station, the presentation of diverse cultures under one roof, our responsible approach to broadcasting, our Canadian Talent Development to assist future broadcasters, and last but not least our framework for programming and unique program schedule.

2515     As you are aware, IT Productions started Radio RimJhim, an SCMO service, when CJJR applied to the Commission for the use of their sideband for programming to the South Asian Community.  The station went on air on November 1, 1987, broadcasting 24 hours, 7 days a week.

2516     The program grid evolved with time but the fundamental principles underpinning this station have been in place: to provide balanced, professional, high quality, inclusive programming for the whole South Asian community in full adherence to the principles of the Broadcasting Act and regulations of the CRTC.  Logger tapes have been kept, log sheets have been followed, spoken word has been carefully monitored, on‑air staff was either trained by organizations like All India Radio, BBC, NHK, Radio Pakistan and Radio Fiji; or they were trained in‑house.

2517     All this solid experience culminates today with our appearance before you to seek your approval to move to the next level.

2518     As you are aware, it was our application filed on 28 August 2003 set out in Broadcasting Public Notice CRTC 2004‑55 which resulted in this call for applications.  The Commission indicated the following as an important assessment factor:

"The contribution that the proposed service will make to achieve the objectives established in the Broadcasting Act and, in particular, to the production of local and regional programming."

2519     IT Productions has been making significant contributions to meet these objectives for the past 17 years.  We have operated within the spirit and intent of the Broadcasting Act notwithstanding our low priority position within the regulatory framework as an SCMO service.  These contributions to the objectives of the Broadcasting Act are clearly articulated in thousands of letters which have been filed in support of our application.

2520     We have tried to be an effective, balanced service, meeting the Broadcasting Act objectives for providing programming of high standards.  We are broadcasters, plain and simple, and our longevity in the market and the support we engender from the community reflects the quality of our service and our commitment to providing a principled, professional local broadcasting service.

2521     In 17 years we have had one complaint registered with the CRTC against our programming, a complaint which was resolved in our favour.

2522     We submit that approval of our application will ensure that a vital, long standing operation serving Vancouver is maintained and expanded.  We are before you today seeking an AM licence to ensure that we can continue to contribute to meeting those objectives set out in the Broadcasting Act.

2523     We recognize that the Commission is concerned about the impact of a new entrant on the market.  Since our intent is to serve a significant but underserved community in the Greater Vancouver area, there will be no negative impact on incumbent stations.  In addition to the two SCMO services, the Vancouver South Asian community is primarily served over‑the‑air by two AM radio stations which broadcast from Blaine, Washington.

2524     Our aim is to repatriate listeners and revenues through a Canadian‑owned, controlled and located over‑the‑air operation that provides quality programming.  The only stations which may be impacted by approval of our application are these two Blaine, Washington‑based operations.

2525     In this respect we note that the Fairchild broadcast group, licensee for two of the existing radio stations in Vancouver, has in its intervention indicated that they do not oppose approval of our application, as we have clearly stated that we will accept a condition of licence not to pursue Cantonese or Mandarin language programming.  We appreciate the letter of support from Jim Pattison Industries, a significant player in the Vancouver radio market, indicating that conventional radio has little concern with the impact of our operation on the Vancouver radio market.

2526     Approval of our application will therefore significantly enhance, not impede, the Canadian Broadcasting Act objectives in terms of the competitive state of the Vancouver ethnic market.

2527     Our business plan is not complicated.  We already run a radio station which has been successful in the Vancouver market on an SCMO basis.  We are in a position to move forward and operate the new AM service successfully within 12 months of approval.  We have the staff with thousands of hours of broadcasting experience and a format that is proven in the market.

2528     Our confidence in our business plan has led us to make a commitment to the most significant level of Canadian talent development among the AM licence applicants.

2529     Our contribution to the education and the arts is something we are very passionate about.  For instance, we have recognized students who excel academically.  We host and enable communications students to do their practicum at our studios for radio and television.  We will enhance this support through our commitment of $10,000 per year for seven years to the University of British Columbia, Simon Fraser University and British Columbia Institute of Technology to assist in scholarships to students focusing on the journalism and broadcast‑related studies, from the language groups we serve, especially the ones with fewer resources.

2530     A total of $210,000 is being allotted for this over a period of seven years.

2531     IT Productions has always encouraged literary expression.  The Likhari Sabha will be given $15,000 per year for seven years for organizing poetry reading competitions and to run a talent search in cooperation with the Kala Mandir music school.

2532     For the performing arts, our CTD contribution will be directed to Classical and New Fusion, Bollywood style of dancing, which is hugely popular among our youth and keeps them connected with their South Asian roots.

2533     Shaimak Davar, a world renowned singer and choreographer who has opened an Indo Jazz fusion school in North Vancouver, and The Natraj School of Dancing will be the recipients of our CTD contribution, for a total of $70,000 over seven years.

2534     We will also contribute $5,000 per year, for a total of $35,000 over seven years, to the development of ethnic recordings.

2535     This brings our total CTD contribution to $420,000 over seven years.  In years 6 and 7 we will commit an additional $100,000 which we plan to use for a talent search, as well as for support and development of talent from the smaller language groups we serve.

2536     Sudhir will now give you an overview of our programming framework and describe the key programs that IT Productions has been known for in the community and which will be an integral part of the new service.

2537     Thank you.

2538     MR. DATTA:  Our programming approach has been guided by meeting high standards of programming quality, inclusiveness, balance, integrity and service to the community.

2539     Over the years we have improved and expanded our program schedule by adding other South Asian languages beyond the ones we started with, namely Punjabi, Hindustani, Hindi and English.  Subsequently we added Urdu, Gujarati and Marathi.  Today we look at the community and feel our schedule is a comprehensive map of languages and groups that are connected to one another by geographical and/or cultural proximity.

2540     Our proposed station will be inclusive and serve the entire South Asian community living in the Greater Vancouver area.  Our language policy is and will be inclusive, not exclusive.  This includes Punjabis, who constitute 60 per cent of Greater Vancouver's South Asian population.

2541     But as importantly, our station will also serve the non‑Punjabi speaking 40 per cent which includes Gujaratis, Marathis, Bengalis from Bengal and Bangladesh, Tamilians from Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka, Sinhalese from Sri Lanka and Fiji Islanders.  We will broadcast in Urdu, the national language of Pakistan, as well as in Arabic.

2542     We want to emphasize to the Commission our proposed Hindustani language programming, as Hindustani is the most commonly understood language among South Asians in Vancouver and around the world.  The Indian sub‑continent has over 25 recognized languages.  India alone has 16 recognized state languages and two official ones.  Hindustani is the bonding language between North, South, East and West.  It is the common language that brings Bollywood and entertainment programs to the entire community.

2543     We will also broadcast in Pushtu, Dari and Farsi to serve the immigrant population who have come from Afghanistan and Iran.  On the East side of India are Malaysia and the Philippines where Indian influence has existed for centuries, who we will serve through Malay and Tagalog programming.

2544     And finally, we propose an additional language group unrelated to our South Asian and East Asian focus, but which responds to the lack of programming for the fourth largest population sub‑group of Greater Vancouver ‑‑ namely the Italian community.

2545     IT Productions has provided a balanced editorial voice in the Greater Vancouver area for 17 years as an SCMO service.  We operate on behalf of the community as a whole and present news in a fair and impartial manner without favouring any particular interest or interest group over another.  We base the selection of news items for broadcast solely on journalistic principles.

2546     We draw a clear distinction between news and opinion.  An AM‑quality signal will enable this balanced voice to be heard more widely and more clearly.  The thousands of letters of support we have received speak to our moderate and inclusive news service.

2547     We are a company very closely connected to our community.  Virtually all of our programming is locally produced and will continue to be so should we be granted this AM licence.  We will continue to be dedicated to reflecting the local community and we will exceed the Canadian content commitments for an ethnic licence in the Vancouver market.

2548     Our news, information, education and entertainment programming is dedicated to interconnecting all language groups with one another.  In particular, our programming for youth will be created by youth for youth.  Open discussion of issues encourages sharing of ideas and bridging of cultural gaps.  To provide in‑depth programming, we focus on selected topics and have discussion of the issues over a number of days in Gupshup.  The programs inform and involve the community at the grassroots level.

2549     Often we are the only service to provide a particular type of programming.  In this respect we are proud of being the significant provider of health and wellness programming for seniors, to which we will continue to dedicate two hours every Saturday.

2550     Our station has made a special place in our programming schedule for stories about women, their struggles, their successes and discussion of issues of concern.  The community has relied on this station to provide this bridge.  For example, in 1998 at a coroner's inquest into the murder of a Merritt woman of South Asian origin, the Coroner recognized and recommended that RimJhim continue its public education programming about violence against women.

2551     It is for her role in efforts like this by the station that Shushma was awarded the Order of British Columbia.

2552     But let me add here that IT Productions is not a one‑person show.  With foresight, Shushma has ensured IT Productions is a strong team with leadership committed to running a stable, quality radio station for the future.

2553     I actually am a good example of that foresight.  When I was just one month old, my mother would take me to the studio where she would provide programming for CJVB‑AM.  I was told Mr. Van Bruchem, the owner of CJVB at the time, that I was a true radio baby.  When I was in the studio I would cry my eyes out as the music played, but as soon as my mother would put the mic feed up, I was quiet as could be ‑‑ of course only to start screaming again as soon as the mic went silent.

2554     I am proud of the contribution this team is making to providing stable and quality radio for Vancouver's South Asian communities and of the greater contribution we can make in the future with a fully licensed station.

2555     In conclusion, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Commission, we believe that an AM licence is best suited to provide service to South Asians throughout the Greater Vancouver area.  We believe that we are best prepared to provide that service given our 17 years of experience providing balanced, inclusive programming embracing the whole community and the highly professional manner in which our operations have been conducted.

2556     MS DATT:  Thank you very much for your attention, and we look forward to responding to your questions.

2557     THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

2558     Commissioner Williams.

2559     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good afternoon, Mr. Datta and Ms Datt.

2560     Mr. Datta, you probably will be the youngest broadcaster to enter the Century Club.

2561     MR. DATTA:  That is what I have been told many times, yes.

2562     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  My understanding is Gupshup means chitchat.  Would you please confirm that for the record and what language is that in.

2563     MS DATT:  Gupshup means chitchat.  This program was started about 14 years ago on Radio RimJhim.  Gupshup was started so that people could understand what was going around; instead of giving news bulletins to talk about news stories, to talk about things that concerned the community on a whole, people who are staying at home.

2564     As you know, parents when they come here as immigrants, husbands go out to earn their living and kids go to school.  So both of them are proficient in English.  But the women stay at home so they are left behind.

2565     What happens is that this program caters to women as well, and they were able to understand what was going on in the world.  We would take the news stories and we would talk about them.

2566     The program is in many languages.  As you have heard, the majority of our announcers speak more than three languages.  I host that program and I speak six languages.

2567     If somebody would talk to us in say Punjabi or Hindustani or Gujarati or Urdu or English, the program would encompass all those languages.

2568     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I propose that we take the form of a Gupshup this afternoon and have a chitchat about your application.

2569     MR. DATTA:  That sounds wonderful to us.

2570     MS DATT:  Let's do that.

2571     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  We will talk first about your commitment to local programming.

2572     You indicated in the response dated December 1, 2003 that you are committed to providing a minimal level, a minimum level of 50 hours of local programming.  However, it is programming schedule in fact virtually all local programming and it in fact would greatly exceed 50 hours per week.

2573     How many hours of local programming will be featured on your station in a typical week?

2574     MS DATT:  The majority of our programming will be local.  When we were answering that question, we gave an answer that a minimum of 50 hours would be local.  What we meant was it would be more than 50 hours.

2575     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I am trying to establish how much more.  How much would that be?

2576     MR. DATTA:  I think in terms of programming a minimum of 85 per cent of our programming would be local at any given time, but I would say closer to almost 100 per cent would be local.

2577     I don't really want to say 100 per cent just because of the fact that if something comes up ‑‑

2578     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes.  My next question would be:  If the Commission were to impose on you a condition of licence in regard to the minimum level of weekly local programming ‑‑

2579     MR. DATTA:  We would be willing to accept 85 per cent as a condition of licence.

2580     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Eight‑five per cent.

2581     MR. DATTA:  Yes.

2582     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Where would the remaining 15 per cent of your programming come from?

2583     MR. DATTA:  Like I said, most of the time it won't be 85 per cent.  It will be most likely closer to 90 or 95 per cent.

2584     The other programming it would probably come from would be news from India, because we have daily three news bulletins coming in from Delhi, Fiji and Punjab.

2585     We also have during courses of ‑‑

2586     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Just on the daily news originating from those three centres, I think your application said that these are paid news bureau staff.

2587     MR. DATTA:  Yes, they are staff.

2588     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Do you have permanent people stationed in each of these centres?

2589     MR. DATTA:  Yes.

2590     MS DATT:  They are our own staff.  In fact, the staff in Delhi has been there from day one.  Ms Joshie(ph) and Mr. Joshie used to work with me at the BBC, and when I came to Canada they emigrated to India.  When I told them in 1987 that we will be starting a radio station, it was natural to have them do the news programming from there.  We then hired them as our staff.

2591     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  What nature is the staff relationship?  Do they work a full day for you or just part days?  Is it like a contract or is it a permanent employee there all day?

2592     MS DATT:  They are permanent employees.  If there is breaking news in India, they would call right away and the news would go on‑air.  During election times we would have news bulletins happening.  But that is very rare.

2593     Usually there is a 10‑minute news bulletin every evening at 6:30.

2594     MR. DATTA:  Which actually the newscasters spend all day actually researching.

2595     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  And preparing for that.

2596     MR. DATTA:  Yes, preparing for that one news bulletin.

2597     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Do you have something to add?

2598     MR. DATTA:  Going back to the question about 85 per cent and what would the other 15 per cent be, the reason why I would say to have 15 per cent as non‑local would be during the Indian election when we have news bulletins on the hour, every hour, from India and from London and from other places, in Punjab and so on and so forth, where elections are covered on a regular basis.

2599     That would obviously take up more of our local programming.

2600     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You have also indicated that spoken word would make up 32 hours, or 25.5 per cent, of your total weekly programming.

2601     What percentage of the weekly programming will consist of music?

2602     MR. DATTA:  I'm sorry, could you please repeat the question.

2603     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You indicated that spoken word will make up 32 hours or 25.5 per cent of your total weekly programming.

2604     MR. DATTA:  Yes.

2605     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  What percentage of your weekly programming will consist of music?

2606     MR. DATTA:  Basically the rest, 75 per cent, will consist of music, will be music‑based programming.

2607     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You have also indicated you intend on co‑producing programs with language producers to serve certain communities.  Maybe we could talk about that for a little while.

2608     MS DATT:  Yes.

2609     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Of the 11 cultural groups you serve, which ones will involve station staff and which will involve non‑station staff co‑producers?

2610     MS DATT:  Bengali, Gujarati, Tamil will be the station staff.  Tagalog, Malay, Farsi, Dari, Pushtu would be non‑station staff; and Italian.

2611     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes, there was one more; thanks.

2612     MS DATT:  Italian was added on later on.

2613     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How will your station staff be involved in these co‑productions?  What will their roles be?

2614     MS DATT:  When I first came to Canada, I came in as an immigrant and as a person who worked with CJVB and I was like the producers that we are currently talking about.  It is very difficult for a new immigrant who is gung‑ho to serve the community to do programming for the community and pay for time or pay for music, run around getting commercials.

2615     So we decided ‑‑ and I always used to think about this: that if I ever went and had a radio station, I would like to assist those people because I have been there, I have done that.  So I would help them to produce their programming.

2616     So we would provide studio facilities for them.  We would provide music if they needed that.  The production of their program, the recording of their program, would be done in our studios.  And any revenue that would come for their programming, which we would bring in, we would share it with them.  Any revenue from commercials that they would bring in, they would keep 100 per cent of that.

2617     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Have you already entered into agreements with any program producers for purposes of co‑producing these programs?

2618     MS DATT:  In principle, we have talked to these producers.  When you give us the licence ‑‑ if we get the licence ‑‑ we will get into contracts with them.

2619     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So no contracts have been entered into yet then.

2620     MS DATT:  We have not signed any contracts with them.  But in principle, agreements have been made.

2621     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So you know the revenue sharing, as you have described.

2622     MS DATT:  That's right.  And they are pretty happy with that.

2623     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  They are happy; okay.

2624     How were these producers recruited?  What kind of radio experience do they have?

2625     MS DATT:  Our Italian producer, Mr. Vito Bruno, has had experience since 1978.  He is an icon in the Italian community.  He has been broadcasting on radio and television.

2626     Our Bengali producer is a film‑maker and a broadcaster from India.  Our Tamil producer is doing television programming right now.  It is the longest running TV show, Mr. Balan Balasothy.

2627     And Ron Durana, who is our Tagalog producer, Philipino producer, is a professional singer and has doubled into broadcasting.

2628     Belal Azizi has done Pushto and Farsi broadcasting in Pakistan as a volunteer.  He is very young and has joined us now.

2629     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  A tremendous level of experience.  How did you find these people?

2630     MS DATT:  Some of them I have known ‑‑ I have been here for 32 years, so when anybody wants to get into broadcasting, we usually do get a call from people saying:  "I would like to do some broadcasting.  Do you have any time on your programming?"  Or:  "We are going to do television programming.  Can you assist us in any way?"

2631     Our station has trained many people.

2632     In fact, you have heard some applicants, many of their broadcasters have been trained by us.  We have had broadcasters who have been trained here or have worked with us and have gone to Voice of America.

2633     One of our announcers is in Mumbai, and he is one of the popular hosts of the morning show there.  So getting trained here and going to other places is not new to us.  In fact, a CTV announcer started her practicum with us.

2634     We find it quite encouraging when people call us and say:  We would like to get training.  We would like to find out how we can enter this market.  We have the facility for them to come and have a look and learn; and if they want to go ahead further into some other field, we encourage them.

2635     MR. DATTA:  I would like to add I think when it comes to people coming to us and asking us if they can do programming with us, and so on and so forth, I think the reason why they ask is because of the fact that our reputation holds a high level of experience and expertise, not just in speaking our languages but in actually broadcasting and in the field of broadcasting.

2636     As we have said, many of our announcers have had many years of experience in some of the most prestigious broadcasting companies in the world.  So it is that reputation that affords us the ability to have all these people come to us and ask us to work with us.

2637     MS DATT:  I would like to add here, though, when I first met Shavilla Singh, who is our Director of Special Programming, it was in nineteen seventy...

2638     MS SINGH:  In 1979 when I came here for my vacation from Radio Fiji that was the Fiji Broadcasting Commission.  Shushma said:  Shavilla, I have one hour programming on CJVB.  What about you take half an hour from that, do some news from Fiji and do a musical program?

2639     After doing the program ‑‑ I think, Shushma, you better tell them.  How was my program?

2640     MS DATT:  We had a great response.  People wanted her to stay here in 1979.  Unfortunately, she had to go back.  But when she came here in 1988, it was ‑‑

2641     MS SINGH:  Sorry, I came here in 1987.

2642     MS DATT:  But she didn't join us right away.

2643     MS SINGH:  I didn't join right away.  She said:  I am opening a radio station, and you and me will be working together.  I said great, that's very nice.

2644     MS DATT:  So we have been working together from day one.

2645     It is very encouraging to see people coming to us and saying we would like to learn.  My mother used to say:  Shushma, consider you are a school.  If anybody worked with us and left us, I would be very unhappy because I would miss that person.  And she would say:  Think of this as a school of teaching.

2646     MS CHEEMA:  If I may also add to that, in my ten years of experience, I am proud to say that we are very well known for our quality, experience and consistency.  Thank you.

2647     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How many hours a week would these co‑productions represent?

2648     MS DATT:  Our Sunday programming schedule will have programs starting from ‑‑ and let me get the schedule out ‑‑ from 7:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m.

2649     All these programs will be produced in‑house.

2650     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  They are mainly on Sunday, the smaller group programming?

2651     MS DATT:  That's right.

2652     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Can you explain your programming strategy?  Why did you pick Sunday and that time to run these programs?

2653     MS DATT:  I am so glad you asked that.

2654     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You are welcome.

2655     MS DATT:  I believe that to present programming on the proposed station that we have today, to present programming for a community as large as the South Asian community, I wanted to do programming for them, not for one hour a day, because when I used to work for CJVB it was one hour a day.  When I left CJVB in 1979 I decided I would go back to radio only if I could do 24 hours for my community.

2656     I realized that all the other language groups that we have added in a way geographically and culturally are attached to our community.  But as a business, I would like to see that there is a schedule which satisfies the listener and the advertiser.

2657     So we decided to keep Monday to Saturday for the South Asian community to do programming in Hindustani, Punjabi and Urdu and English.  The Sunday schedule we decided would be for language groups.

2658     When I was speaking with Mr. Vito Bruno he specifically asked for 12:00 to 2:00.  That is very important to the Italian community, and we made that available for him.

2659     I talked to the Gujarati community, and currently we are doing programming for them from 10:00 to 11:00 in the morning.  That time suited them too.

2660     The Tamil community, I talked to them about the time and that time suited them as well.

2661     I think because the station wants to cater to the South Asian community, I didn't want to come up with a schedule with languages put in the middle of the day and then come to you after six months or a year and say:  You know what, when I was making that schedule, it sounded good but it didn't make business sense to me.  I would like to change it and put them all now on Saturday or Sunday.  I didn't want to do that.

2662     I wanted to do this from day one to show you this is how we want to do it.  We want to take this as a condition of licence.

2663     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  All right.  We will consider your offer.

2664     How will you ensure that your station and co‑produced ethnic and third language programming containing the spoken word material is relevant to each community; for example, local community news and local events and information?

2665     How will you make sure that remains important to the listeners?

2666     MS DATT:  As you know, we have been doing this for the past 17 years.  We have listeners who call us in our Gupshup programming and are very open to appreciate our programs or criticize our programs.

2667     Gupshup is a program that allows them to voice their opinion about programming.

2668     When we do a local interest program, we make sure that the entire community is involved.

2669     As you can see from our panel today and our employees, we have people from all walks of life.  All religious factions are represented in our staff.  All age groups are represented in our staff.

2670     So our staff helps us to make sure that we are doing local programming for our audiences.

2671     I have Manu Chopra, who has been with us now for two years.  I would like him to expand a little bit on that aspect of local programming and Gupshup.

2672     MR. CHOPRA:  Good afternoon, Commissioners.  Gupshup in a sense, like you said, initially is chitchat.  I would say in another manner of speaking, another definition is just informal conversation.

2673     In this informal conversation we basically involve members of the community.  We make it a point to bring in experts and then there is us.  It is a very nice forum, Commissioners.  If somebody wants to have a conversation or has an opinion or wants to say something, not to one person but to a few thousand people, there can be no better way than this.  So it is really nice.

2674     It is a mix of issues really.  It could be something that is local and pressing to the community.  It could be something that is pressing to B.C, something that is important in Canada, something that is important in the world; so from the micro to the macro.

2675     We expand and we do talk and have this Gupshup on everything there is really.

2676     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So topics that might come up in this Gupshup, then, would indicate to you whether you had to make adjustments in the various programs.

2677     Is that what you are saying?

2678     MS DATT:  Sometimes, yes.

2679     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How else would you determine?  Would you survey?  Would you ask your listeners: Is this programming relevant to you?

2680     MS DATT:  We do.

2681     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Is the news and community events helpful?

2682     MR. CHOPRA:  If I may, actually all the time, and again this is a sort of informal process that is followed.  Very often listeners take the trouble of calling us when we are off‑air and saying "hey, I really liked this".

2683     Even on a few occasions when on‑air we asked them:  What are the topics you would like to be discussed?  What are the topics that you think are relevant?

2684     In fact, once we had actually done a show, 45 minutes, where we involved the community and we just said:  What are the topics you would like?  And 45 minutes was spent on that; people just giving us feedback.  It made our job a lot easier, actually.

2685     MR. DATTA:  It's a lot easier to program for people when you know what they want.  It's really helpful.  That is one of our underlying things with our community, that we like it when they participate.

2686     That was the whole point of Gupshup, for them to participate not only in the community but also in the station.  We cover many different topics in Gupshup, very serious, very sublime, but also at the same time the station becomes a topic and we talk about the things that are important to the station.

2687     We also make it a point to ask for listener feedback; to call the station and tell us what you think of our shows, what you think of the announcements, the producers who are doing the shows.  Are there any topics that you would like to hear, if they don't want to call in through Gupshup and just want to leave a voice message, or what have you?

2688     We even use extensive use of e‑mail to keep in contact with listeners and their opinions.

2689     MS DATT:  Simmi may have something to add.

2690     MS CHEEMA:  In addition to that, Sudhir mentioned that we have personal voicemail to collect the feedback.  If we feel it necessary, if there is a need of change or something, then we sit down and we talk about that.

2691     In addition to that, our clients come and they tell us.  When they call us for advertising, they tell us that these programs are popular and they want to advertise with us.

2692     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How would you see, for example, programs to the Italian community within your proposed station?

2693     MS DATT:  With groups like the Italian community I would rely on Mr. Bruno's experience and his position within the community to let us know what sort of programming he would like to do.  As long as it is within our framework of policies and rules and regulations, he can go ahead and do that ‑‑ and the rules and regulations of the CRTC, of course.

2694     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Of course.

2695     MS DATT:  I thought I would add that quickly.

2696     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You have identified in your ethnic programming chart five hours of English language programming to be targeted to a mainstream audience: two hours of English language program to appear in the program descriptions filed with your application on Sundays.

2697     I note you intend on featuring programs with various linguistic segments, in which English will be featured.  These multilingual programs will be featured during a significant part of your weekday programming blocks: the morning show, the drive home show and the evening show.

2698     I would like to know a bit more about the linguistic spoken word segments of these programs.

2699     For example, can you give us the approximate amount of time that would be devoted to Hindustani into English language spoken word programming during the morning show?

2700     MS DATT:  I would like to, first of all, talk a little bit about Hindustani so that we can go into that topic.

2701     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That would be very helpful; thank you.

2702     MS DATT:  Hindustani is the language that is understood.  It is a mixture of Hindi and Urdu.

2703     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  It is widely understood.

2704     MS DATT:  Widely understood.  I was just going to give you an example that we live in a country of immigrants.  I have a best friend who is Chinese.  I communicate with him fine.  Vito is my friend and he is Italian, and I communicate with him fine.  I have a Polish friend, a Greek friend, and I talk to them okay.  And I don't know any of these languages.  So the common language for all of us is English.

2705     Similarly, the common language for India is Hindustani.  Everybody understands Hindustani.

2706     Over here, when Bollywood stars come here everybody is there to see them.  All the video stores have Bollywood movies.  All these movies are rented by people.  Everybody watches them.  So in essence it is the language that bonds everybody together.

2707     Having said that, we recognize that there are other languages too, like Punjabi.  I am a Punjabi.  I speak Punjabi; that is my mother tongue.

2708     Punjabi language programming gets special attention.

2709     Your question was how much ‑‑

2710     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How much Hindustani and how much English?

2711     MS DATT:  ‑‑ English would you have in your morning programming, for example.

2712     The morning programming, the entire program spoken word would be Hindustani and the co‑host might have some spoken word in English for the younger audience, who are either on their way to school or are on their way to work and understand the music that we play but don't necessarily understand the language.

2713     So the English language would be used in that.

2714     The split will be 50:50.  We have the split over here in the languages.

2715     MR. CHOPRA:  Commissioners, if I may add, the fact is that when we speak, people like us speak more than one language.  When you are really interacting with your audience on a radio show, you tend to lapse into the other language.  You flow.  One language flows into another.

2716     I don't know about definitely giving percentages, but that is the way it goes.  You speak a lot of Hindustani, and you do lapse into Punjabi, you lapse into English and back.  That's the way it goes.

2717     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  It sounds interesting.

2718     MS DATT:  Sonia has something to add to that.

2719     MS LOTAY:  I just wanted to talk about the English programming that is going to air on Sunday.  We have proposed three new programs and they are entitled "Hot Pepper", "Masala Mix" and "Hip Hop".  They are designed in a way so that they stand for the spirit of the youth.  They are prepared in a way so that they appeal to the youth, because this is the kind of music that the youth listen to.

2720     Just to describe these programs a little further, "Hot Pepper" would be a program which will feature Hindi pop music, which means that it will feature pop artists and it will have a fusion of Indian and western musical style in the music.

2721     "Masala Mix" would feature Bollywood remixes, which are songs that let's say are made in a more groovy way.  They could be taken from Shavilla's generation from the fifties and sixties.  They are presented in a groovy way by adding a contemporary beat to them.

2722     That program will feature remixes, and "Hip Hop" will feature Hindi, Punjabi and English music, all three of them.  What differentiates "Hip Hop" from "Hot Pepper" is that it might have Hindi music that is more upbeat and Punjabi music that is more dedicated or more played in party halls or clubs.  It will definitely have some English music as well.

2723     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

2724     Where I am going with these questions, Ms Datt, is I am trying to determine how much the English language programming would fit into the five‑hour total that appears in the ethnic programming chart filed under cover of your letter of November 18th, should it work out to be more than five hours.

2725     Your latest programming chart shows that the percentage of total programming that is devoted to third language programming will be 95.5.  If it was more than that, would you wish to amend that part?

2726     That is where I am going with this area of questioning.  It might help your response.

2727     MS DATT:  We are comfortable with the percentages.

2728     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  You are comfortable with the percentages.

2729     MS DATT:  Yes.

2730     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

2731     Could you please explain to us how these multiple language program segments would be presented to the listener.  I hear a bit of moving back and forth unconsciously I guess between the languages, but maybe give me an idea of a typical program.  Would you do half the program in one language and then switch or is it just back and forth?

2732     MS DATT:  Let me run through some of the programs for you.

2733     For example, the morning show would start in Hindustani and would have a few English announcements in it.  We have the breakdown in the languages that we have provided to you.

2734     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  And explaining the music would be in English.

2735     MS DATT:  Exactly.  Coming to the drive home show, we might have it exactly the same way as the morning show.  The only show that is different in all this is Gupshup, because if a listener comes on and speaks in say Punjabi and asks the question in Punjabi, or we have a guest who is going to be giving some information in Punjabi, then we would be talking to that person in Punjabi.

2736     In return, our other listeners who are not Punjabi speakers, because they cannot understand Punjabi we would be translating that for them in Hindustani.

2737     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  And that is a two‑hour daily show.

2738     MS DATT:  Currently at the moment the current show is one and a half hours.  It will be promoted to two hours because we need those two hours.

2739     MR. CHOPRA:  During Gupshup, actually it is a comfort level that is paramount to us, whether it be of the guest or it be a caller.  Whatever they are comfortable with we would be talking at that particular point in time.

2740     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  What language would newscasts be broadcast in during these programs?  When you are doing the news, which language is it in?

2741     MS DATT:  All our newscasts would be in Hindustani except in the Punjabi programming they will be in Punjabi.  And we do have two hours of Punjabi programming during the day time, from 12:00 to 2:00 and from 7:00 to 9:00.  Those four news bulletins will be in Punjabi.  Then the 8 o'clock news bulletin, that comes from Chandigarh in Punjabi, which is included in those four bulletins.

2742     The rest of the bulletins during the day, Monday to Saturday, would be in Hindustani.

2743     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That would include the bulletins coming from your staff that are stationed in Punjab, New Delhi and Fiji as well?

2744     MS DATT:  No.  The Fiji bulletins come every day.  They are every day at 12:30 currently, and they will be in our morning show.

2745     The New Delhi programming is at 6:30 in the evening.  That has been there since day one.  On November 1, 1987 we started the 6:30 news bulletin from New Delhi, and we still do that to date.

2746     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

2747     As set out in the Commission's Ethnic Broadcasting Policy, a primary responsibility of ethnic broadcasters relates to their ability to serve and reflect their communities in their station's local programming.

2748     Could you tell us a bit about your plans with an advisory board.  Is there one in place in your current CMO operation?  Will there be new members attracted or are you going to use some of the same members?  How often do they meet?  How many members?

2749     Tell us about your advisory board and plans.

2750     MS DATT:  Commissioner Williams, we do not have an advisory board at the moment as per se.  Our advisors are our listeners, organizations that we deal with, people who advertise with us, our staff, mainly our listeners.

2751     We will have an advisory board which will be comprised of business people; will be comprised of religious organizations so that the religious component is looked after; organizations that we have assisted in the past 17 years, fund raised for them, organizations like B.C. Children's Hospital, Heart and Stroke Foundation, the Cancer Society, et cetera.

2752     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How many members would be on this board?  Would they represent all parts of the community that will be your listeners?

2753     MS DATT:  Yes.  And also we will have representatives from language producers.  We will have ten people, five women, maybe six ‑‑ no; five women and five men.

2754     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Sounds pretty equal.

2755     MS DATT:  I was going to say six women.

2756     MS CHEEMA:  We believe in equality.

2757     MS DATT:  Yes, we do believe in equality.

2758     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  It's like my home with my wife and daughter.  They don't need the extra vote.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

2759     MS DATT:  They do have the vote; right?  You are the one who gets left out.

2760     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Yes.

2761     It appears your station's advisory board, from that type of representation, will give you the feedback and input that you need.

2762     Are there any specific measures that you will establish to make sure that the local issues and concerns are reflected in your programming?

2763     MS DATT:  We do that already.  All the news and other programming, we make sure that they are balanced.

2764     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How do you do that?

2765     MS DATT:  We have policies in place.  All our announcers have those policies.  The new producers will have those policies.  The new employees will have those policies.

2766     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Who follows up and checks on it?

2767     MS DATT:  The management does that.  I do that.  I keep ‑‑

2768     COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  A close eye on it.  I understand.

2769     MR. DATTA:  It's a big whip that we have over us.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

2770     MS DATT:  I am not that bad.