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Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l'audience.
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
BEFORE
THE
CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND
TELECOMMUNICATIONS
COMMISSION
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES
AVANT
CONSEIL DE LA
RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS
CANADIENNES
SUBJECT:
VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS
/
PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN
RADIODIFFUSION
HELD AT:
TENUE À:
Metropolitan
Conference
Centre de conférence
Centre
Métropolitain
333 Fourth Avenue
South West
333, Fourth Avenue Sud‑Ouest
Calgary,
Alberta
Calgary (Alberta)
February 22, 2006
Le 22 février 2006
Transcripts
In order to meet the
requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of
proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers,
the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public
hearings, and the Table of
Contents.
However, the aforementioned
publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as
such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official
languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at
the public hearing.
Transcription
Afin de rencontrer les
exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les
procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à
la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du
CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table
des matières.
Toutefois, la publication
susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et,
en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou
l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la
langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience
publique.
Canadian Radio‑television
and
Telecommunications
Commission
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et
des
télécommunications
canadiennes
Transcript / Transcription
VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS
/
PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN
RADIODIFFUSION
BEFORE /
DEVANT:
Michel Arpin
Chairperson / Président
Helen del Val
Commissioner / Conseillère
Elizabeth Duncan
Commissioner / Conseillère
Ronald Williams
Commissioner / Conseillier
Stuart Langford
Commissioner / Conseillier
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI
PRÉSENTS:
Chantal Boulet Secretary /
Secrétaire
Leanne Bennett
Legal Counsel /
Conseillère
juridique
Steve Parker
Hearing Manager /
Gérant de
l'audience
HELD AT:
TENUE À:
Metropolitan Conference
Centre de conférence
Centre
Métropolitain
333 Fourth Avenue South
West
333, Fourth Avenue Sud‑Ouest
Calgary, Alberta
Calgary (Alberta)
February 22, 2006
Le 22 février 2006
TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF
CONTENTS
PAGE /
PARA
PHASE I
(cont.)
PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION
PAR:
Calgary Independent Radio
Broadcasters Inc. 338 /
2194
Jim Pattison Broadcast
Group 435 / 2865
Yadwinder S. Sivia (OBCI) 525 / 3433
Rawlco Radio Ltd. 628 / 4218
Calgary, Alberta
‑‑‑ Upon resuming on
Wednesday, February 22, 2006
at 8:00
a.m.
2188 THE CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.
2189 I would ask that you
make sure that all cellphones, blackberries, and beepers are turned
off.
2190 We will begin with Item
No. 5, and I would ask Madam Secretary to introduce the
Applicant.
2191 MS BOULET: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As mentioned, we will proceed with Item
No. 5 on the agenda, which is an application by Calgary Independent Radio
Broadcasters Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial
radio programming undertaking in Calgary.
2192 The new station would
operate on Frequency 92.9 Mhz, Channel 225‑C1, with an effective radiated power
of 100,000 watts, non‑directional antenna, antenna height of 301.7
metres.
2193 Appearing for the
Applicant is Mr. Vince Tripathy.
Mr. Tripathy will introduce his colleagues. He will then have 20 minutes for his
presentation.
PRESENTATION /
PRÉSENTATION
2194 MR. TRIPATHY: Thank you. Before we begin, we would like to
indicate for the record that three documents were filed this morning, which were
in response to a deficiency letter request, indicating change of directorship
within our company.
2195 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. The documents will be put in the public
record, and they will be available to the participants at this
hearing.
2196 MR. TRIPATHY: Thank you.
2197 I was thinking this
morning that it was 25 years ago this September that I started my broadcast
career. You are going through the
butterflies and the jitters before you get up here, and it was interesting to
realize how far it has been from starting in Rosetown, Saskatchewan, to being in
front of the Commission this morning here in Calgary.
2198 That being said, Mr.
Chairman, Commissioners and Staff, I would like to introduce our team. I am Vince Tripathy, President of
Calgary Independent Radio Broadcasters Incorporated, and General Sales Manager
of STAR FM.
2199 To my far right is Rick
Meaney, Vice President of Calgary Independent Radio Broadcasters Incorporated,
and General Manager of STAR FM.
2200 Next to Rick is Mike
Bagshaw, Secretary of Calgary Independent Radio Broadcasters Incorporated, and
Retail Sales Manager of STAR FM.
2201 To my immediate left is
Laurie Healy, Program Director and shareholder in STAR FM.
2202 Next to Laurie is Paul
Kuster, Aboriginal Liaison and co‑host of "First Nations Friday" on STAR
FM.
2203 On my far left is Jim
Bagshaw, shareholder and advisor to STAR FM.
2204 Directly behind me is
our consultant, Shyla Dutt.
2205 Unable to be with us
today, because he is out of the country, is Terry Strain, a shareholder in our
company, and an advisor, with 40 years in radio.
2206 The principals of STAR
FM are all long‑time residents with commitments to Calgary, all with extensive
broadcast experience, all able to react to the needs of
Calgarians.
2207 This experienced group
represents the best of both worlds, an independent rooted in Calgary, best able
to understand and react to the needs of Calgarians, with the expertise and the
resources to ensure the viability of this radio station, which, in turn, will
meet community needs in one of Canada's most dynamic
cities.
2208 Collectively, STAR FM
has over 130 years of broadcast experience. Most of that is right here in
Alberta.
2209 Rick, Jim and Terry
have all served on the boards of the CAB and the WAB.
2210 Jim has been the
Chairman of BBM, and also received Broadcaster of the Year from the
WAB.
2211 Rick received a Gold
Ribbon for CTD from the CAB, and a Gold Medal for Community Service from the
WAB.
2212 Aside from
broadcasting, members of our group have made significant contributions on a
community level, including serving on boards for Mount Royal College, the
Salvation Army, 17th Avenue Rejuvenation, Junior Achievement, the United Way,
and the Calgary Children's Foundation.
2213 Calgary Independent
Radio Broadcasters is indeed a group of Calgarians dedicated to creating radio
for Calgarians.
2214 Mr. Chairman and
Commissioners, we are very excited about 92.9 STAR FM. The format will bring a new voice and a
new sound to Calgarians that will fill a void in the market: yesterday's favourites and hits of
tomorrow.
2215 The radio station is
designed by Calgarians, for Calgarians.
2216 Its staff will reflect
the diversity of the community and address community needs through our high
levels of news, lifestyle and special interest
programming.
2217 STAR FM will truly be a
radio station that is designed to showcase Canadian talent, especially artists
from Alberta, as well as Calgary.
2218 The history of
broadcasting shows that through the many challenges that radio has faced over
the years, it has been the independent that has helped to initiate the changes
to enable us not only to survive, but to thrive.
2219 MR. J. BAGSHAW: Mr. Chairman, I am particularly excited
to be in the company of these young entrepreneurs. They have dedicated a great deal of
their time, imagination, and money to the development of what I believe to be an
exciting new look at radio that will have significant impact in the Calgary
market.
2220 My broadcast career
began in 1974. I bring that up only
because of the gentleman I started my career with, Dr. Charles Allard. He was a true entrepreneur. During my years with him, we built a
small television station in Edmonton into what was at one point the most
successful independent television station in Canada, later to become
WIC.
2221 The application before
you today is built in that same entrepreneurial spirit. It is local, independent, and dedicated
to the Calgary market with concrete dreams to fulfill a market void in
Calgary ‑‑ the dreams that Western Canadian entrepreneurs such as Dr.
Allard and Frank Griffiths brought to life.
2222 As Doug Holtby, a
former colleague of mine, stated in his support
letter:
"In this broadcast
environment of increased consolidation and concentration, I respectfully urge
the Commission to license local applications whenever possible. I steadfastly believe that locally owned
broadcast stations are tuned in more closely to the pulse of their community,
and consequently are better equipped to recognize and respond to the community's
needs. Local ownership creates more
diversity in our global broadcast environment, a factor which blends to a truer
reflection of the diversified Canadian society in which we
live."
2223 MR. MEANEY: Mr. Chairman, local entrepreneurs have
made Calgary what it is today. The
frantic pace of business activity and economic expansion continues, fuelled by
high energy prices, strong migration, a red‑hot construction sector, a resilient
housing market, and the fastest growing retail spending in Canada. Calgary's economy has never been
better.
2224 Calgary's growth and
prosperity is reflected in its radio market. Calgary is the most profitable radio
market in Canada, and has been for the past seven years.
2225 In 2005, radio revenues
reached $76 million. To date, the
market is growing at 11.6 percent.
At this rate of growth, the Calgary radio market will top 100 million by
2009.
2226 Calgary is ready and
able to support a new radio station; not any radio station, but a station that
will program to the most under‑served demographic in the
city.
2227 We have heard from many
adult Calgarians, who have expressed a frustration with Calgary radio. They cannot find a station that plays
their favourite music.
2228 We understand their
frustration, based on our knowledge of the existing radio format and the
research that we commissioned.
2229 In June of 2005, we
arranged for Bannister Research to conduct a survey to determine the best music
format for a new FM station in Calgary.
Two formats emerged as having the greatest cume and core potential. They were modern rock and seventies and
eighties soft rock.
2230 The results also show
that modern rock was much easier to find on the FM dial than seventies and
eighties soft rock.
2231 Therefore, our research
concluded that seventies and eighties soft rock, due to its strong format
viability, represents the best choice to fill the void in the Calgary
market.
2232 Since our music
research was conducted last June, three Calgary stations have altered their
formats, creating an even larger opportunity for a seventies and eighties soft
rock station.
2233 CHFM, the adult
contemporary station, is playing a brighter music mix, which means that they are
targeting younger.
2234 The smooth jazz
station, The Breeze, has rebranded itself and is now called California 103. Ninety‑three percent of their music is
from 1990 to current, and they, too, have lowered their target
demo.
2235 CKMX‑AM changed its
format in July from adult standards to traditional
country.
2236 There is now a complete
absence of popular soft music on the FM band that would appeal to a 35‑plus
audience. STAR FM will fill this
void with what our research shows is the most appealing music to this
under‑served demographic. We will
fill the need in the marketplace and have the least impact on existing
stations.
2237 With a limited number
of full‑power FM frequencies still available, we feel that a broad‑based format
targeting the 35 to 64 demographic is the best use of the 92.9 FM frequency, and
would maximize the reach of a new and distinct voice in the
market.
2238 This brings us to
today, to a station that we believe is the best choice for licensing and meeting
the needs of Calgarians ‑‑ 92.9 STAR FM.
‑‑‑ Audio clip / Clip
audio
2239 MS HEALY: Mr. Chairman, building on what is the
void in the market ‑‑ yesterday's favourites ‑‑ we are adding on hits
of tomorrow, those hits that have the feel and sound compatible with soft rock,
that provide a suitable resonance and are similar in
temperament.
2240 This combination will
give listeners the old favourites they still want, yet provide rejuvenation
through new and upcoming artists, whose music is in sync with the feel and
experience of soft rock from the seventies and eighties.
2241 Much of that new music
will come from Canadians, such as Harry Manx, The Philosopher Kings, Karla
Anderson from Stoney Plain, and, of course, staying true to our local roots,
music from Calgarians like James Keelaghan, Tim Tamashiro, Feist, and
Tariq.
2242 Our diversity of
musical selections will be a unique sound in the traditional adult contemporary
genre. We will endeavour to
pleasantly surprise our listeners with culturally diverse sounds that reflect
our community, while providing the music that our listeners grew up
with.
2243 Speaking of growing up,
we propose to present a two‑hour kids' show, "Kids' Radio". It will be a music‑intensive specialty
program that won't stray from our soft rock format, yet will incorporate
Canadian music specifically targeted to kids.
2244 A great example comes
from the Juno‑nominated CD "The Fabulous Song", featuring a number of Canadian
musicians.
2245 As well, young
Calgarians will be front and centre on "Kids' Radio", along with pet features,
interviews with local sports heroes, school events, kids' jokes, and
more.
2246 We are very excited
about "Kids' Radio", as there simply isn't anything like it in the market. We are completely committed to the
concept, should we be licensed for STAR FM.
2247 We will get in depth
with our local artists on the hour‑long "Stars Alive on FM", a monthly program,
to be recorded live at the Beach in Calgary.
2248 Our weekly half‑hour
show "Your World", will bring a serious and not‑so‑serious look at global news
and bring it back to a local level, while highlighting songs from our world
music category.
2249 Restaurant reviews by
well‑known local critic John Gilchrist is one example of our spoken word
programming that will be fun and informative.
2250 STAR FM will bring a
new editorial voice to the market.
Currently there is no news on Calgary FM stations after 9:00 a.m. until
4:00 p.m. weekdays. We, however,
will commit to hourly news packages from 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m., Monday through
Friday, and 6:00 a.m. to noon on weekends.
2251 In addition, we will
include a comprehensive segment specifically relevant to Calgarians, called "The
Morning Interview", at 10:00 a.m., which will be repeated at 6:00
p.m.
2252 "Entertainment This
Evening", an hour‑long weekday show, will always present the latest events and
performance calendars from venues across the city. Local interviews, news, comedy, gossip,
and lots of music will all be a part of "Entertainment This
Evening".
2253 Paul Kuster, our
Aboriginal Liaison person and co‑host of "First Nations Friday", will now tell
you about our aboriginal programming and community
connections.
2254 MR. KUSTER: Mr. Chairman, we will go beyond our
dollar commitment to the aboriginal community by truly supporting First Nations
music with a dedicated show on Friday evenings called "First Nations
Friday". Accomplished Canadian
musician and actor, Tom Jackson, and I will co‑host the program, highlighting
the talent of aboriginal artists, such as Calgary's Sandra Sutter and Les
Jerome, along with others, like Derek Miller, and Eagle and
Hawk.
2255 I would also like to
talk about community involvement.
There will be a seven‑member advisory committee that will provide ongoing
feedback on music selections and a range of issues. Meetings with local artists and members
of the community will be done in an open‑house forum twice a
year.
2256 In an age of huge
technological change, Calgary Independent Radio believes that the ability to
truly reflect community and to be relevant to the changing make‑up of Calgary
will allow traditional radio to thrive.
2257 Being local means being
connected. STAR FM will be very
excited to support, and have the support of, the Federation of Calgary
Communities. Listeners will be
automatically connected with the 137 community associations across the city
through daily on‑air reports, and will be instantly linked through STAR FM's
website.
2258 STAR FM will regularly
air public service announcements for community organizations and community
campaigns on a daily basis, for at least a total of three minutes at
day.
2259 The types of
organizations that will be accorded these services will include the United Way,
health organizations, farmers' organizations, immigrant services centres,
shelters for women, and Native Friendship Centres.
2260 MR. BAGSHAW: Mr. Chairman, as an independent we
recognize the importance of this licence.
Calgary Independent Radio is committed to making a Canadian Talent
Development contribution that is both affordable and, for a new standalone
station, meaningful. Our aim is an
owned and operated Calgary company to bring our talent initiatives as close to
home and make them as impactful as possible on the day‑to‑day lives of local
musicians.
2261 Our proposed Canadian
Talent Development package is valued at $2.1 million over the seven‑year licence
term.
2262 I would like to list
these for you. The Western Canadian
Professional Talent Development Fund would receive $734,000. The Aboriginal Scholarship Fund would
receive $56,000. Aboriginal radio
would receive $70,000. The Calgary
Association for the Development of Music Education would receive $250,000. ARIA, the Alberta Recording Industry
Association, would receive $200,000.
FACTOR would receive $160,000.
2263 We have a commitment
from FACTOR. Their contributions
will be used specifically for Alberta artists, as indicated in their
letter.
2264 There will be a
proposed part‑time Canadian Talent Development co‑ordinator, at
$100,000.
2265 Local Calgary festivals
would receive $560,000.
2266 Mr. Chairman, we would
like to point out that these are direct cost contributions to CTD. We are confident that these substantial
contributions to Canadian talent will make a difference.
2267 MR. TRIPATHY: Mr. Chairman, in conclusion, we believe
that our local ownership group, with its local community roots, will deliver a
different radio experience that will reflect Calgarians. We will be a new player, bringing a new,
locally based editorial voice to Calgary and the Canadian radio industry, with
programming developed locally.
2268 Our entry into the
market will have a minimal impact on the existing stations, given their
continued profitability and the prospect of continued growth in red‑hot
Calgary.
2269 Our proposed musical
format, designed to serve the under‑served segment in Calgary, will add
diversity and competitiveness, ensuring our business success to become a stable
and a growing force on the Calgary broadcast scene.
2270 Our programming format
will embrace the multicultural and aboriginal diversity of Calgary, and give it
a presence on our proposed broad‑based station.
2271 The Federation of
Calgary Communities will be a real partner in reflecting our
community.
2272 Our proposal of 35
percent commitment to Canadian content is reasonable and practical for a new
station targeted at an older demographic.
It becomes more meaningful when you consider that we are committed to new
and emerging artists, especially those from Calgary and
Alberta.
2273 We have made a
substantial commitment to Canadian talent of $2.1 million, yet it is not just
about writing a cheque, it is about having meaningful
results.
2274 Our initiatives are
intended to leverage the opportunities for artists right here in the Province of
Alberta, and, in particular, here in Calgary.
2275 Actions speak louder
than words. This group will prove
it. We are here for the long haul,
an independent that has the staying power to be here in
Calgary.
2276 We thank you for your
time, and we welcome your questions.
2277 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I would ask Madam Helen del Val to
question you with respect to your application.
2278 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Thank
you.
2279 Your presentation this
morning has clarified some of the questions that I had anticipated asking, so
thank you for that. There are a few
more points, though.
2280 In your supplementary
brief, it wasn't clear whether the core audience group you would be targeting
would be 35‑plus or 45‑plus.
2281 It is quite clear that
you would be targeting the 35 to 64‑year‑old demographic. With the presentation this morning, can
we confirm that the core target group would be 35‑plus?
2282 MR. TRIPATHY: Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, in
response to that answer, we do have an overall broad‑based target of 35 to
64.
2283 I would ask Laurie
Healy to answer that question in a little more detail.
2284 MS HEALY: Certainly you are correct that our
broad‑based and our target demo will be 35‑plus. We will specifically be looking closer
at the 35 to 54 demographic, but we realize that our music will also fall into
the up to 64 range, for sure, yes.
2285 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: So you would have a broad
appeal across the general 35 to 65 age group, but the programming focus would be
35‑plus, rather than a median age of 45 or so?
2286 MS HEALY: Yes, that is
correct.
2287 Rick might be able to
speak more to the demographics.
2288 MR. MEANEY: Our tight target is the 35 to 54
demographic. That is where we will
be aiming our programming.
2289 Of course, because we
will be the softest music on the dial, it will appeal to people who are over
55.
2290 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: You are quite confident that
the programming designed to appeal to 35‑plus will also appeal to the broader
base?
2291 MS HEALY: Yes, I am very confident that our music
will, in fact, do that.
2292 When we break down our
music in terms of the areas that we will play, we are certainly looking at
playing music ‑‑ our home will be the seventies, with about 30 percent of
our music coming from the seventies category.
2293 We are also going to
have a bit of life in the sixties ‑‑ about 10 percent. That will add some spice. Certainly, that also speaks to our
55‑plus audience.
2294 For the remainder, we
will live about 25 percent in the eighties, which will be keeping true to our
format of seventies and eighties music.
More than 50 percent will come from those two
decades.
2295 Then, of course, the
remaining 35 percent we will achieve from the nineties up to
today.
2296 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Thank
you.
2297 I think you are well
aware that there are at least three other applicants ‑‑ Evanov, the
Pattison Group, and 1182743 Alberta Co. ‑‑ which are targeting the same
group, with, more or less, a similar music format. How would your station, or your proposed
format, differ from their proposed formats?
2298 MS HEALY: I think we will bring a large amount of
difference.
2299 I am sure that Vince
and Rick will both be able to speak to this, as
well.
2300 Certainly, when we talk
about the difference between the other applicants, you make a good point,
straight off the top, that they are targeting specifically 45‑plus. We are actually coming down a bit lower,
to 35‑plus in our music.
2301 We are not going to
live in an instrumental world. That
is another example, where another applicant has suggested that that will be a
component to their application.
2302 Our music is mass
appeal. It is soft rock music. It is mass appeal music. It is something that can reach across
the generations.
2303 MR. TRIPATHY: If I could add to Laurie's comments, one
of the other areas on this application ‑‑ and it is very important to us,
and you will hear it over and over again in the next few minutes. This group of broadcasters is from
Calgary. We recognize
that.
2304 We also recognize that
technology has become a very, very big part of what is going on, as has the
Commission, in some of the restructuring that has been done in the last few
months. As a result of that, we
really feel that, as much as community has been a big part of programming in the
past, it has to become even more integral if we are going to survive as
traditional radio stations.
2305 To that point, our
spoken word content is very much going to be Calgary based, and that will be
another point of differentiation relative to some of the other
applicants.
2306 Rick, I would ask you
to enhance on that, if you could.
2307 MR. MEANEY: Madam Commissioner, the other three
applicants are older than we are, in terms of their targeting, and in their
music choices. I have noticed that
they will be playing artists such as Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, and the likes,
which we will not, making them older.
2308 Also, one applicant,
Mr. Evanov, has a 35 percent instrumental component.
2309 There is a smooth jazz
station in the market that has an instrumental component, so we have chosen not
to go there.
2310 These three formats are
designed on a station in Parksville, another one in Vancouver, and then one in
Newmarket. Calgary is a younger
city than those three centres, and we feel that the music here should have a
slightly younger appeal.
2311 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: I will come back to the spoken
word programming in a minute, but what about the existing tuning
options?
2312 I think there are a few
tuning options for the 35 to 44 adult demographic in Calgary right now. For example, the AC station, CHFM
Classic Rock, and CFGQ. Then there
is the AOR station, CJ, as well as the smooth jazz station, and there is also a
classic hits station.
2313 How do you think your
proposed station will differ from those?
2314 MS HEALY: I will start with your
list.
2315 CHFM is living in the
1990s and beyond. As you may have
heard in our presentation, we referred to it as about 93 percent ‑‑ which
is an approximate number ‑‑ of their music being from 1990 and later. In fact, their music is targeting a much
younger demo than what we are looking at, 35‑plus.
2316 The other stations,
quite frankly, have a sound that is very much targeted to a male audience, and
we are intending to skew more to a female
audience.
2317 MR. TRIPATHY: If I could add to Laurie's comments, we
had this discussion last night, because obviously we were anticipating a
question similar to this, and I guess the discussion ultimately surrounded the
fact that there is no doubt that there are other services that are delving into
some of those other demos.
2318 I think the question
ultimately gets down to, as great a job as the radio stations are doing in this
marketplace, after taking a look at our research that came back to us, it
appears that the bottom line is that there is more room for growth in those
particular demos.
2319 To that point, if I
could, Rick, I would ask you to enhance a bit on the research we
did.
2320 MR. MEANEY: To add to what Laurie said, CHFM is a
current‑based AC station. Eighty
percent of their music is from 1990 to current, even the smooth jazz station's
music is from 1990 to current, the bulk of it, and Q107 and CJ are both rock
stations, primarily targeted to the male audience.
2321 So we believe that
those stations are getting tuning in the demo that we are intending to go after,
but some of those listeners may not be able to hear their favourite music on the
FM band, and that is why they are listening to these stations, because they are
getting some of the music they want, but not all of it.
2322 That's why we are
different.
2323 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Where do you think your
listeners will come from then?
2324 You talk a lot about
the void. Where are these listeners
now?
2325 MR. MEANEY: Madam Chairman, if I could, our research
shows that our listeners would come from JACK FM, from CBC, from Q107, which is
a classic rock station, and Country 105, and CHFM would then fall in after
that.
2326 So they would come from
all over.
2327 MR. TRIPATHY: I think the other point with regards to
radio stations, if I may add, Rick, is that radio formatting and
programming ‑‑ and we all have different lifestyles. There is music, and then there is the
psychographics, the type of lifestyles that we are leading on a day‑to‑day
basis. This radio station is
designed to speak to some of those things, whether it is a busy parent with kids
running around between sports events, or whatever happens to be going on during
the day, or a business person who is going to be heading downtown for an office
meeting.
2328 That is another element
that comes in, aside from the music positioning on the radio station that
perhaps will differentiate ourselves from some of the other competitors in this
marketplace.
2329 MS HEALY: I have one further point about where our
audience will be coming from. We
can't forget that Calgary is a growing market. We have people migrating to this city
all the time that will look for a home in terms of their radio station, and we
hope that if we get STAR FM, that will be their home.
2330 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: How does that kids' show fit
into this whole picture?
2331 MS HEALY: I am very glad you asked about the kids'
show, because we truly are really excited.
It simply is a unique opportunity for us to play music that remains
within our soft rock genre.
2332 I think we have a
number of points to make about the kids' programming, in terms of that show and
its music.
2333 We talk about the
artists. We can bring in Canadian
artists that we can highlight in that show, and there are lots of them. I can think of Connie Kaldor, for
example.
2334 There is a great song,
and I can't wait to hear it. I say
that it's a great song. We all
remember "Puff the Magic Dragon".
There is a new mix of that for kids that is coming
out.
2335 These are the kinds of
things that we can highlight in that show, staying within our soft rock
format.
2336 We are targeting an age
demo, in terms of the kids, of about 12 years of age and younger. Kids listen to what their parents listen
to in the vehicle. I think we
listen to what our parents are listening to in that young
age.
2337 As we start to get
older, of course, we start to have other influences. We recognize that the 14, the 15 and the
16‑year‑olds are probably not going to be our target in terms of this group of
listeners.
2338 With our spoken word
content we will be targeting the 12‑and‑under group, with the opportunity to
have kids on the radio. I know that
we will speak to spoken word further, but definitely in terms of music, I don't
think we have to stray too far from our soft rock format. We have no desire to be a CHR station
for two hours in our programming.
We want to stay true to our soft rock format.
2339 MR. TRIPATHY: I am going to step back for a
second. If we put this into
perspective and think about it a bit, this program gives us an opportunity to
move into a lot of different areas.
2340 I am not going to kid
you, we weren't all onside initially when we brought up the idea, but as we got
thinking about it and got more and more excited about it, and thought about the
soft rock component that we have spoken about, we got into spoken word and some
of the other initiatives that we can take out of this and kind of move into a
lot of different areas, one of which could be book clubs in this city. There are book clubs and reading
programs that are currently set up with people such as the Calgary Hip and the
Calgary Flames, which would be a natural tie‑in with a program like this, if we
were able to secure those alliances.
2341 It moves all the way
through to kids' jokes, pets ‑‑ we all have kids who are in school, who are
looking for ways to try and get through school, in some cases. They are looking for ways, basically, to
enjoy their lives, and this program is something that, again, will not only
relate to the kids, but also to the parents, if properly
programmed.
2342 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Just to clarify, it is 35‑plus
female that is your core audience, isn't it?
2343 MS HEALY: Yes, that's
correct.
2344 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: So it's probably their kids
you are targeting.
2345 MS HEALY: You are exactly bang on,
yes.
2346 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: On pages 4 and 5 of your
supplementary brief you list your artists, and a number of them would be
considered what we call Category 3, special interest
music.
2347 What percentage of
Category 3 music selection do you think you will be including in your weekly
music playlists?
2348 MS HEALY: Quite frankly, I didn't figure out that
percentage. I can't answer that
question truthfully.
2349 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Counsel will correct me if I
am wrong. As a commercial FM
station, you cannot go over 30 percent.
2350 MS HEALY: We would certainly commit to
that.
2351 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: So you would go below
that.
2352 MS HEALY: Absolutely.
2353 MR. MEANEY: Madam Chairman, it would be far below
that number.
2354 MR. TRIPATHY: If I could also say, as broadcasters in
this city we have an opportunity, and have had opportunities, over the last 20
years in some cases, a bit less in some others, to work with a number of
broadcasters in this city, and we are very respectful of the current broadcast
environment, including operators such as Newcap, which have a specialty licence
here that fits into Category 3.
2355 We certainly wouldn't
want to tread on their territory, so to speak.
2356 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Mr. Meaney, I love how you
keep promoting me to chairperson.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
2357 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: I was a bit worried about
that.
2358 MR. MEANEY: I know that you are new, but I have
heard good things about you.
2359 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: But I'm not the
chairperson.
2360 Let's move into the
local and spoken word programming now.
2361 In your November 14,
2005 letter, which was in response to deficiency questions, you indicated that
you would devote 17 hours to spoken word programming, 7 hours to news and 88
hours to music programming, for a total of 112 hours of programming per
week.
2362 I notice that in your
package today ‑‑ and this is the one with the grid, with the
timetable ‑‑ you give a more detailed breakdown of your
programming.
2363 I haven't had time to
add the numbers up and things like that, but in your deficiency letter your
programming added up to 112 hours.
The broadcast week being 126 hours, that left 14 hours unaccounted
for.
2364 I am wondering how you
are going to fill the 14 hours, or is the answer in what you have submitted this
morning?
2365 MR. MEANEY: Madam
Commissioner ‑‑
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
2366 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Thank you. I like Chairperson better, but that's
okay.
2367 MR. MEANEY: That difference would be made up of
commercials and music. So the music
could be higher than 88 percent, based on the commercial load on the radio
station.
2368 That would be the
difference.
2369 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: On your breakdown of the
feature and spoken word programming, what you have provided this morning, will
that still add up to 112, now supplemented with Mr. Meaney's answer, or is the
14 hours listed in what you provided this morning?
2370 MR. MEANEY: The broadcast week is 126 hours. If we have 17 hours of spoken word, then
the balance would be made up of commercials and music.
2371 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Excluding the 7 hours of news
programming, you are proposing 17 hours of other types, like the kids' show,
"The Morning Interview", "Entertainment This Evening".
2372 Could you please
provide more detail regarding the nature of those programs and the programming
resources dedicated to each?
2373 MR. TRIPATHY: Madam Commissioner, to clarify, the 17
hours of spoken word is inclusive of news, sports and surveillance
programming. So it would be the
additional 10 hours over and above that, which Laurie will speak to
now.
2374 MS HEALY: We have a number of initiatives to
fulfil our spoken word programming.
As we have clearly discussed, our 7‑plus hours in terms of news. In addition to that, we have a news
interview segment, called "The Morning Interview", which we will be bringing to
our programming. This is
specifically targeted to Calgarians locally.
2375 One of the examples we
give in the documents is that perhaps we will have a pediatrician on who has the
latest advances in autism, some of the latest news, and that kind of
thing ‑‑ things that specifically target our audience of 35‑plus, with a
female skew.
2376 "Entertainment This
Evening" will be another great example of where we will be able to incorporate
our additional spoken word content outside of our, of course, unscheduled jock
talk that we will have.
2377 Again, our focus will
be local, because that is what we are all about, local events and what is
happening.
2378 It is what we consider
our opportunity to go beyond simply what was happening on TV last
night.
2379 We will have "Community
Calgary", and we are very excited that we have been able to hook up with the
Federation of Calgary Communities ‑‑ 137 organizations here in
Calgary. It is an umbrella
organization, if you will, that will allow us to keep Calgarians informed with
our community calendar and also via our website as to what is happening here in
the community.
2380 Our aboriginal
programming, which we are very excited about as well, will obviously be a music
show, again fitting in with our soft rock format, but with an aboriginal
flavour, because that is what the music will be. We also intend to incorporate a spoken
word element into that.
2381 Some other spoken word
content that we will have will be in the kids' programming, the two‑hour
show. We expect, again, a
music‑intensive show with great spoken word that will enhance the two hours,
again bringing it back locally to what is happening for kids here in our
community, as well as, of course, the trends and what is going on around the
world.
2382 Other spoken word
programming that we have allotted for ‑‑ we have "Stars Alive on FM". This would be a monthly show, so its
spoken word content in terms of a weekly basis really becomes limited. However, again, we anticipate having
perhaps four Calgary artists on "Stars Alive on FM". Not only will we have their music, but
you need to get to know those people.
So that becomes part of our spoken word ‑‑ and biographies, and
chatting with them, and so forth.
2383 "Your World" is a
global half‑hour program that we are anticipating will have a good, probably,
five or so minutes of spoken word content, in addition to our unscheduled jock
talk throughout our programming.
2384 We are developing
ideas, such as our 60‑second restaurant review, which John Gilchrist, a local
author and food critic here, is eager to participate in with
us.
2385 All of our spoken word
programming ‑‑ I could go through it all, but all of it is designed to
enhance what is going on in our listeners' lives. It is designed to target our 35‑plus
audience, and hopefully make their lives a bit easier, a bit more fun and
entertaining.
2386 With our unscheduled
jock talk, that will end up being approximately 17 hours of
programming.
2387 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: What about the programming
resources that you are going to dedicate?
2388 Who is going to run
them?
2389 MR. TRIPATHY: Thank you for that question, Madam
Commissioner. We have taken that
into account, and it is a terrific question. In order to get spoken word, you need
people to execute it and get it looked after. To that end, we have made some decisions
with regards to our programming, in particular the news
area.
2390 Rick Meaney, as general
manager of the operation, has put together those numbers with regards to
staffing.
2391 MR. MEANEY: First, if I could address the news, we
would have two full‑time news people and two part‑time news
people.
2392 As mentioned by
ourselves and other applicants, there is no news on FM in Calgary after 8:30 or
9:00. Typically, in those news
departments, there might be one person.
2393 So the news department
will handle some of the spoken word that is more in tune with the
news.
2394 Also, I will turn it
over to Laurie, because her programming staff will be looking after a lot of
this.
2395 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Perhaps this might make it
easier for me. I am looking at what
you provided this morning on programming, where you list your spoken word
programming.
2396 I don't know whether it
is doable to run down the list and say what is the programming resource for,
let's say, "Entertainment This Evening" ‑‑
2397 MS HEALY: Sure, we can do that, recognizing that
it's fluid and ‑‑
2398 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Yes, of
course.
2399 MS HEALY: Our goal, when we have staff, is always
to marry people with the right skills to the right ‑‑
2400 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Of course. We could say that a news person is
running ‑‑ we will just say news.
2401 MS HEALY: Absolutely.
2402 Of course, news we have
already touched on.
2403 "The Morning Interview"
is another program that would come from the news
department.
2404 "Entertainment This
Evening" would come from our on‑air staff, in terms of our jocks, if you
will.
2405 "Community Calgary",
actually, will be in combination with our producer and a local representative
from the Federation of Calgary Communities, who will put the piece together for
us, and then will call it in via the telephone. That is our vision for
that.
2406 Aboriginal
programming ‑‑ obviously, Paul and Tom will be a big part of how the
aboriginal programming comes together, along with our music director, of course,
and myself, as program director.
This will be a vital show for us, so we will take good care of that one
for sure.
2407 "Kids' Radio" ‑‑
one of the things that I strongly believe as a program director is that we have
to develop our new DJs, our new talent in the industry. With "Kids' Radio", it only makes sense
to have a young broadcaster, and it will be an opportunity for
us.
2408 This will be a big
project. It is not simple,
something you can throw off to the side.
We want someone who will be dedicated, and younger people in radio tend
to be pretty exciting.
2409 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: And you can charge him child
care rates.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
2410 MS HEALY: I will check on that. I will see what I can do to make it a
requirement.
2411 Beyond that, "Stars
Alive on FM", again, will be something that works very strongly. That will be very much in my ballpark,
along with our music director.
2412 We have "Your World",
which is something that I see working between the news department and our on‑air
staff. I think that needs to be
something that kind of goes hand‑in‑hand together.
2413 The 60‑second
restaurant review ‑‑ again, John Gilchrist has expressed a desire to be
part of that, along with the producer, again, and on‑air staff. They will be able to make that
happen.
2414 "Nuts and
Bolts" ‑‑ again, this will be our on‑air staff. "Nuts and Bolts" we haven't discussed,
but this is another little feature that is designed to make lives a bit
easier. It is something that would
definitely be with our on‑air staff, and the jock that would be
appropriate.
2415 "Talk the Walk" is
something that, again, would involve our producer, as well as our on‑air staff,
and hopefully experts in the field, because they know
best.
2416 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Thank
you.
2417 These programs will
total 17 hours.
2418 MS HEALY: Along with unscheduled jock talk, yes,
that's right.
2419 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: What portion of the 17 hours
do you think will be made up of banter ‑‑ disc jockey
banter?
2420 MS HEALY: We have calculated that we suspect about
5 percent ‑‑ up to about 5 percent.
2421 That's a fluid number
always, but that is pretty standard.
2422 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: In your reply to a deficiency
question, you also stated that news and related surveilling spoken word, such as
weather, sports and traffic, would total 7 hours per week.
2423 Could you please
provide details on the duration of the newscasts, if they haven't been provided
already, and what, if any, other information, besides related surveillance,
would be included in the newscasts?
2424 MS HEALY: You will note in the document we gave
you today that we outline the news package, the total length of the news
package, in the pretty little blue‑and‑white graph that I have for you
there.
2425 For example, our 6:00,
7:00 and 8:00 a.m. hours ‑‑ morning drive ‑‑ will be five minutes in
length. That includes news, sports,
weather and traffic.
2426 I could certainly break
down the specific times on those, if you would like me to.
2427 News in the morning
will be three minutes in length.
Our sports will be one minute in length. Our traffic will be 30
seconds.
2428 We will intersperse
traffic, of course, with our jock talk, because it is an important part of our
programming.
2429 Weather, as well, in
the news package, will be 30 seconds.
But, again, you will be hearing it throughout the
hour.
2430 We will also have
half‑hour news in our morning drive show, which will be on the half‑hour. Our newscasts will be one and a half
minutes long. Our sports, again,
will be one minute. Our traffic and
weather, each, 30 seconds.
2431 Our newscasts become a
bit shorter throughout the day, as news becomes less at the top of people's
minds during their workday.
2432 We will pick up at
noon, again with a slightly longer newscast, at three minutes for news, 30
seconds for sports, 15 seconds for traffic, and one minute for
weather.
2433 Then, at four o'clock
we will pick back up again with three minutes specifically for
news.
2434 Keep in mind that in
this market right now there are full newscasts ‑‑ morning newscasts ‑‑
through until 8:30. There are at
least two stations that are doing a brief nine o'clock update in the market, and
then you don't hear any news in Calgary, outside of breaking news stories and
that kind of thing. You won't hear
any scheduled news again until four o'clock, when there will be brief
updates.
2435 We are proposing to not
only do the news, but to do the sports, to do the weather and the traffic right
through until six o'clock every weekday, and on weekends from 6:00 a.m. until
noon.
2436 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: What would be the size of your
newsroom staff, and what kind of resources would you dedicate to news gathering
and production and on‑air broadcasting?
2437 MS HEALY: I think that Rick could speak to
that.
2438 MR. MEANEY: Madam Commissioner, there will be two
full‑time news staff and two part‑time.
2439 Could I ask you to
repeat your question again in regards to the news staff?
2440 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: What would be your anticipated
size of the newsroom staff and the types of resources you would allocate to news
gathering, production and on‑air broadcasting?
2441 MR. MEANEY: In terms of resources, we will have
Broadcast News, of course, the news that comes over the
wire.
2442 Laurie, you might add
to that, in terms of resources.
2443 MS HEALY: Certainly, when we talk about our news
staff, one of our news people ‑‑ our news director, more than likely, will
also be our morning news person, and then our other staff
will ‑‑
2444 We kind of look at it
as a team. Our other staff will
appropriately work the afternoon news, the morning news, and so
forth.
2445 MR. TRIPATHY: If I could clarify, in case we haven't
made the answer perfectly clear, there would be two full‑time and two part‑time
individuals.
2446 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Who is responsible for the
news content?
2447 MS HEALY: That would be our news director. Of course, the program director would
receive the entire thing as well.
2448 MR. MEANEY: And don't forget the general
manager. He gets in there
too.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
2449 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: You are beginning to
sound more like the Commission all the time.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
2450 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: I have learned, and I have
been told that the spoken word programming is very expensive to produce. Based on looking at your projected
programming expenses in section 4.1 of your application, over the seven‑year
period ‑‑ and I have also calculated it. I think your total programming cost is
about 30 percent of your total operating costs.
2451 I am just wondering why
you feel that your projected expenses will be sufficient to cover your spoken
word programming, particularly because there are applicants who have proposed a
less ambitious spoken word programming package and are dedicating more to
programming expenses.
2452 MR. TRIPATHY: Thank you for the question, Madam
Commissioner.
2453 In taking a look at the
expenses and the budgeting for the radio station, we tried to be as responsible
as we could in putting those numbers together, and we tried to put some thought
into it, and we tried to analyze not only where we are at today, but also the
costs going forward.
2454 Calgary is a dynamic
market. It is a city that is
currently growing.
2455 Rick Meaney could
probably best address the exact percentages and why they are set up that
way.
2456 MR. MEANEY: It is true that some spoken word could
be expensive. Most of the spoken
word that we are doing will be done by our staff in‑house.
2457 I am surprised that
Laurie hasn't brought this up, but the on‑air people are typically on the air
for four hours, and they have time to put together some of the spoken word
programming.
2458 As well, our news
department also has time during the day to put it
together.
2459 When I did the budget,
I made sure that we had the proper staff members in every
position.
2460 From my perspective, I
don't think we are low on the numbers.
2461 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: I looked at your financials,
and they show that you are projecting losses from Year 1 through Year 3, which
we see a lot.
2462 I have also calculated
that your average annual percentage growth in revenue over the seven‑year term
would be about 19.4 percent, which seems a little high to
me.
2463 I am wondering how your
projected revenues are tied to your programming expenses. What if you could not meet your revenue
targets?
2464 Would you be able to
finance the programming expenses?
2465 MR. MEANEY: First of all, the revenue numbers we
feel ‑‑ and I have heard this term used ‑‑ are
responsible.
2466 We fully expect to
reach those numbers, and I would hope a bit more.
2467 I don't see any reason
why we can't do the spoken word. I
really don't.
2468 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: I know that you have a line of
credit lined up for the first three years, so if you don't meet the targets in
the first three years, I suspect that your line of credit will kick in. Beyond that, what would your commitments
be if your revenues over the projected seven years did not meet the targets you
have set?
2469 MR. MEANEY: Madam Commissioner, you are right, we do
have a $2 million line of credit set up, and taking into account the losses in
the first two years, we still wouldn't use up that entire line of credit. There would still be a fair bit of it
left.
2470 So we would draw on
that, if need be.
2471 MR. TRIPATHY: If I could add to Rick's comments, one
of the strengths of this application ‑‑ and I am sure the Commission has
recognized it ‑‑ is that we are a local group that is from Calgary, with
extensive sales experience in this marketplace already.
2472 One of the benefits and
strengths of this application is that we not only have the skill set and the
understanding of the Calgary market already, but a set of business relationships
that have been built on for years and years.
2473 We anticipate being
able to get out of the gate a lot quicker than some of the other potential
applicants, if they were to come into the market, simply because we have a
better feel of the market and where we need to go moving
forward.
2474 With regard to the
situation for the company as far as dollars available and such, overall
financing is sitting at $3.5 million.
Worst case scenario according to our budgets ‑‑ and, again, we have
tried to be responsible with them ‑‑ shows us at $2.4 million, or
thereabouts, allowing for a $1.1 million cushion on financing for us to move
forward.
2475 The initiatives that we
are proposing are very doable, and I can assure you, knowing Mr. Meaney, that
they are going to have to happen.
It's not an option.
2476 MR. MEANEY: Yes, they will be out there
selling. I can guarantee
that.
2477 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: On your spoken word, I looked
at your Bannister Research results ‑‑ and I am sure I am missing
something. It doesn't seem to
measure the market's needs in terms of spoken word and what that target audience
should be.
2478 I am wondering, what do
you perceive to be the spoken word and information programming expectations of
your target audience, and why do you feel that your proposal for spoken word
programming would meet those expectations?
2479 MR. TRIPATHY: If I could start the response to that
question, I would appreciate it.
2480 With regard to the
research that was done, it was initially conducted based on a sense of feel,
after speaking with people in this marketplace about possible needs in the
market as far as format is concerned.
2481 In looking at the
Bannister Research, what you will note, after the music formats were chosen, is
that there are a couple of more information‑intensive radio stations that are
showing up at the top of that list, which potentially could share audience with
ourselves.
2482 In taking a look at
that, we then went a step further, and that got back to psychographics. In looking at the research, we said, "If
the individuals there are interested in information and what is going on in
Calgary, perhaps we should take a little closer look at our spoken word
content," and that is when we initiated some of those
initiatives.
2483 MS HEALY: Speaking in terms of the programming,
when I think of the 35‑plus audience, what we start to see is a greater desire
to have information, but it can't just be any information. It has to be information that fits with
their lifestyle. It has to be
information that is relevant to what is going on in their lives. It has to be compelling. It has to be
interesting.
2484 That is what our goal
in all of our programming initiatives is, to have spoken word that fits
seamlessly into our music‑intensive radio station.
2485 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Do you have any empirical
data, in terms of the research, that the existing radio stations are not meeting
the spoken word needs of Calgary listeners?
2486 MR. MEANEY: Madam Commissioner, when our research
was done, it was a format finder, to find the best format for Calgary. Spoken word was not a component of
it.
2487 However, if you look at
what is going on in radio in the market, other than the morning show, there is
very little spoken word.
2488 With the demographic
that we have targeted, we felt, first of all, that they wanted more news, and
that we could add a spoken word component to fit in with our
programming.
2489 So it is based on our
experience, not research.
2490 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Thank
you.
2491 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will take a ten‑minute break. We will return at quarter to
ten.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 9:35
a.m.
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 9:50
a.m.
2492 THE CHAIRPERSON: Before returning to the continuation of
the review of your application, I want to say that we took a small break to
discuss among ourselves and to review some of the questions that we have
regarding your filing of the material that you provided this morning. That is why we took a
break.
2493 Also, I know that the
Secretary would like to add something regarding the
filing.
2494 MS BOULET: Yes. Thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
2495 To be precise, with
respect to the extra documents that were filed on the record this morning, I
would like to describe what they are.
2496 There is a document
entitled "STAR FM Feature and Spoken Word Programming". It is a five‑page
document.
2497 There is also a
description of the Canadian Talent Development
commitments.
2498 There is a document
called "Financial Operations", which is an updated document to be included in
the application.
2499 Finally, there is a
Unanimous Shareholder Agreement, which was signed on February 21,
2006.
2500 These documents were
filed this morning and they will be placed on the public record for this
Applicant.
2501 Thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
2502 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Del Val.
2503 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: I will move on to the Canadian
Talent Development contributions.
2504 There have been a
couple of changes to the numbers, so I wanted to confirm for the record what the
commitments are, as they stand.
2505 Could you confirm that
the commitments are as you have stated in your December 9th response to the
deficiency questions, where you increased it from $756,000 to $2.1 million over
the seven years?
2506 There will be $108,000
each year, from Year 1 through Year 3, $368,000 in Year 4, $440,000 in Year 5,
$473,000 in Year 6, and $495,000 in Year 7.
2507 Is that
correct?
2508 MR. TRIPATHY: Madam Commissioner, we are reviewing our
CTD commitments, and we would like to walk through the totals on a year‑by‑year
basis, to ensure that we are in fact on the same page.
2509 We are indicating a
Year 1 total of $108,000, a Year 2 total of $108,000, a Year 3 total of
$108,000, our Year 4 commitment is looking at $368,000, Year 5, $420,000, Year
6, $453,000, and Year 7, $475,000.
2510 As would be expected,
we would honour those as a condition of licence.
2511 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: The numbers that you just gave
me, they would be in the package that you gave us entitled "Western Canadian
Professional Talent Development Fund"?
2512 MR. TRIPATHY: Yes, that would be one of the
components. That's
correct.
2513 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: So whatever you gave us this
morning supersedes what you have provided before.
2514 MR. TRIPATHY: That's correct. We apologize for the confusion. We had an increase in our CTD at the
last moment.
2515 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: That's
okay.
2516 In your earliest
submission you gave a breakdown of where you are going to allocate the CTD
commitment.
2517 I am going to read them
from the documents you provided this morning. If you could confirm for me whether they
are, in fact, correct, I would appreciate it.
2518 To the Western Canadian
Professional Talent Fund, $734,000.
To the area, $200,000.
Festivals is $530,000. Then
the Calgary Folk Festival is $10,000.
The Calgary International Children's Festival is $10,000. Aboriginal festivals, $5,000. The Aboriginal Scholarship Program is
$56,000, and aboriginal radio is $10,000.
2519 Is that
correct?
2520 MR. TRIPATHY: I think the only total that we may have
to clarify is aboriginal radio.
2521 MR. MEANEY: Madam Commissioner, if I may, those
individual festivals that you mentioned are inclusive in the overall
festivals.
2522 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: You anticipated my
question.
2523 So the Calgary Folk
Festival of $10,000, the Calgary International Children's Festival of $10,000,
and aboriginal festivals of $5,000 are to be included in your total of
$530,000.
2524 MR. MEANEY: That is correct.
2525 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Other than for that
clarification, those numbers are correct?
2526 MR. TRIPATHY: If I could, I would like to very quickly
review the aboriginal radio commitment, to ensure that we are on the same
page.
2527 Our overall commitment
for CTD is $70,000 for aboriginal radio, and that works out to $10,000 per year
over a seven‑year term.
2528 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: I think you have lost
me.
2529 MR. TRIPATHY: It wouldn't be the first time I have
done that to somebody.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
2530 THE CHAIRPERSON: With respect to aboriginal radio, I
notice that the money will be given to AMMSA, which is the Aboriginal
Multi‑Media Society.
2531 Am I
right?
2532 MR. TRIPATHY: That is correct.
2533 THE CHAIRPERSON: AMMSA doesn't operate radio
stations.
2534 I can see from their
letterhead that they have the news source ‑‑
2535 Oh, they have
CFWE. I
apologize.
2536 MR. TRIPATHY: Yes, that was their initial radio
station.
2537 Maybe what I could do,
as long as we have this opportunity, is hand this over to Mike Bagshaw. He could clarify what their role is in
that particular initiative.
2538 MR. M. BAGSHAW: Thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
2539 AMMSA broadcasts to 48
communities and settlements via satellite from that central station. So those funds would be used to help
develop talent in discussions with the president and CEO, Bert Crowfoot, at
AMMSA. They are in the process of
developing a college to help aboriginals learn radio, journalism and
television. So those funds would go
toward that.
2540 THE CHAIRPERSON: And they are not related to
ADR.
2541 MR. MEANEY: No, they are
not.
2542 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
2543 Madam Del
Val.
2544 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: That's why he's the
Chair.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
2545 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: In terms of the breakdown of
your CTD commitment, I should really go to the sheet where you have listed Years
1 through 7, and then the total ‑‑
2546 MR. TRIPATHY: That's correct.
2547 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:
‑‑ rather than the prose, the description of the funds, because those do
not total your commitment.
2548 MR. TRIPATHY: No, those are just some of the
highlights within each of the initiatives.
2549 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: I am sure this is a typo. I think, in this morning's presentation,
in terms of festivals, you mentioned the number 560,000, but the correct number
is 530,000.
2550 MR. TRIPATHY: That's
correct.
2551 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: So you would be prepared to
accept as a condition of licence to spend the incremental annual CTD budget at
the levels you have indicated in the documents you filed this morning ‑‑ in
the documents that list the seven‑year commitment.
2552 MR. TRIPATHY: That's correct. If there were any initiatives that were
deemed to be not necessarily within the CTD guidelines, we would certainly stay
with that $2.1 million commitment.
2553 Again, on the CTD
program, it is important with our group to emphasize that we have tried,
wherever possible, to make sure those initiatives were directed back into
Alberta, or back into Calgary, where possible.
2554 The aboriginal
initiative, as an example, is a station that is up in the northern part of
Alberta.
2555 To clarify what they
do, the programming that comes out of there is a satellite broadcast throughout
First Nations reserves throughout the province.
2556 MR. BAGSHAW: Madam Commissioner, if I could add, I
think it is important to note, as well, that we have had the opportunity to meet
with each of these individuals and we do have commitments with the dollar
amounts we have allocated to them, and, in most cases, we have a letter from
them indicating that they are looking forward to working with us, if we are
granted the licence.
2557 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Thank
you.
2558 I have more questions,
specifically on the CTD initiatives.
2559 First, with respect to
the Western Canadian Professional Talent Development Fund, you state that this
fund will be managed by the station and that it will be used to help a western
Canadian artist with the production and distribution of a
CD.
2560 Could you please give
us a budget breakdown for the recording and manufacturing of the CD; and,
secondly, will a third party facility be used to realize the
recording?
2561 MR. BAGSHAW: Thank you, Madam
Commissioner.
2562 Yes, that would be
managed by STAR FM, as well as the Beach Recording Studio. We have formed a partnership with them
on that.
2563 If I could give you the
breakdown for the CD production costs ‑‑
2564 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: If I could back you up, whose
studio will you be using?
2565 MR. BAGSHAW: Beach Recording Studio. They are a recording studio located here
in Calgary.
2566 There will be $2,500
for musician fees; $25,000 for studio, engineering, mixing and mastering;
$25,000 for producer fees; $5,000 for CD replication, artwork and production;
and $15,000 for promotion and marketing.
2567 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: How will you choose the
successful recipient?
2568 MR. BAGSHAW: There are a couple of different ways
that we will go about doing that.
One of the advantages, and things we are excited about, with respect to
working with Beach, is that Lanny Williamson has a distinguished resumé. He has been in the recording industry
since 1960. With the number of
up‑and‑coming talent from Calgary that comes into his studio, he will present
individuals to us that way.
2569 We will also have a
link on our website for individuals to apply for those
funds.
2570 As a committee, we will
meet with Lanny, as well as Rick Meaney, the general manager, and Laurie, the
program director. They will narrow
it down to five individuals. At
that point they will interview those individuals, have them come into the
studio, and make a determination from that point as to who that individual would
be.
2571 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: How will you promote the
talent fund to the community?
2572 MR. BAGSHAW: That's a great question. Again, through the website of the radio
station, and we will also support it with some on‑air, through PSAs and other
promotional components of the radio station.
2573 Again, with Lanny's
extensive network in the industry here in Calgary, he will certainly be able to
help extend that.
2574 MR. TRIPATHY: If I could add to Mike's answer for a
moment, we also have spent time over the last seven or eight months while we
were putting this application together to stay in contact with local Calgarian
artists, and we have been able to set up a network of sorts that will allow us
to gain as much exposure as possible for this program.
2575 We want to make sure
that it is as inclusive as possible, as opposed to exclusive, to potential
artists.
2576 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: You indicated that a large
number of CDs will be made for distribution. How many CDs do you anticipate
making? What kind of distribution
are we talking about?
2577 MR. BAGSHAW: We would anticipate the production of
about 15,000 CDs.
2578 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: How would you distribute
them?
2579 MR. BAGSHAW: Maybe I will have Vince respond to that
question.
2580 MR. TRIPATHY: Sure. As far as distribution is concerned,
again, it is one of the benefits of this group that you see in front of
you. We are locally based, we have
relationships within the city, and there are opportunities for distribution on a
retail basis, not necessarily even in the most traditional
manners.
2581 To cite a national
example, you can see the CDs that are occurring, as an example, in the Starbucks
outlets, and so on, down the line.
2582 We would find a local
retailer that we could work with in partnership to create that
exposure.
2583 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: With respect to providing
support to marquis Calgary‑based events and festivals, you have listed the
Calgary Folk Festival, the Calgary International Children's Festival, and
aboriginal festivals. Are they
examples, or are these the ones that you will be contributing
to?
2584 MR. BAGSHAW: Those three, we have committed those
dollars to them, and then we would look for additional festivals that we deem we
could put additional funds into.
2585 But we have committed
those dollars to those festivals.
2586 MR. TRIPATHY: The additional festivals that we might
look at could be of a multicultural nature. On some level we understand the
initiatives that the CRTC is trying to put forward, and do believe in them, and
if we are able to, we will certainly direct funds that are reflective of the
community here in Calgary.
2587 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Could you elaborate on
aboriginal festivals? Could you
give some examples?
2588 MR. TRIPATHY: If I could, Madam Commissioner, I will
turn that over to Paul Kuster, our aboriginal liaison
person.
2589 MR. KUSTER: First of all, I am a native, and my last
name is Kuster, so don't hold that against me.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
2590 MR. KUSTER: It's a bad name for a native guy to
have.
2591 The City of Calgary
hosts a Calgary Aboriginal Awareness Week every year. It used to be held in May; now it is
held in June. It is an annual
festival. It is a week long, and it
coincides with June 21st, which is National Aboriginal Day across the
country.
2592 When I first talked to
Mike about this, I was trying to think of what kind of festival would fit this
kind of funding, and I thought this one would work best because it is a
city‑wide celebration. There are
events going on that entire week at different venues across the city, and it is
inclusive. It includes
everyone.
2593 Of course, the feature
is aboriginal culture, which includes arts, music ‑‑ all that kind of
thing. So I thought perhaps one of
the best festivals would be that one to support.
2594 There are smaller
festivals, including powwows, which happen during the summer at the reserves in
and around the Calgary area, but this one is a city‑based festival and it
includes all of the aboriginal people from this area, as well as mainstream
cultures.
2595 That is the festival
that we have talked about to this point.
2596 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: That leads to my next
question. What specific directions
would you give to the various organizations receiving the funding on how the CTD
money should be spent?
2597 For example, with
respect to the festival, how would you ask them to spend the
money?
2598 MR. TRIPATHY: Madam Commissioner, that was a question
that we had to address in one of our deficiency letters, and we tried to put in
a couple of different mechanisms, and I could let Mike speak to that
directly.
2599 MR. M. BAGSHAW: There are a couple of directives that we
put in place. One of them is that
we would have the participants submit an application as to what the initiatives
of the festival are. There would be
a detailed list of where the funding would go.
2600 We would also ask, upon
completion of the festival, for a report as to where the funding went, as well
as an indication as to how the festival itself went.
2601 There would also be a
20 percent holdback that we would have on those funds, until we received that
documentation, and we would release those funds upon receipt of those
documents.
2602 MR. MEANEY: Madam Commissioner, if I might add to
that, the intention of this festival fund is to support Canadian musical
talent. That is the idea of the
fund.
2603 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Thank
you.
2604 Moving to your
aboriginal scholarship program, I noted your response in your November 14th
letter to the deficiencies, and I see that you address the question of: If this were not an eligible CTD, what
you would do with it?
2605 However, I am wondering
what would be your position right now.
Has it changed from the letter as to whether the scholarship that you are
talking about still qualifies or is eligible for CTD
funding?
2606 MR. BAGSHAW: Madam Commissioner, is the question
that, if it isn't eligible, would we reallocate those
funds?
2607 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Scholarships, usually, would
only qualify when they are used for studies in music, journalism and artistic
studies. The Commission has not yet
recognized broadcasting courses as being eligible, as it is not considered an
artistic study.
2608 I am wondering if you
agree with that interpretation, and how do you feel about your scholarship
initiative, whether it qualifies as an eligible
CTD.
2609 MR. BAGSHAW: I will let Vince
respond.
2610 My one comment on that
would be that, if the Commission deemed that it wasn't eligible, we could
certainly move it into the journalism course at Mount Royal, where we would
certainly be comfortable moving those funds to.
2611 MR. TRIPATHY: I think, at the end of the day, it is
important to point out that the initiative itself is something that is very
worthwhile and could be very, very beneficial.
2612 But, as Mike said, if
for whatever reason it is deemed to be a little offside as far as the policies
are concerned, we certainly don't have a problem in reallocating those funds to
another initiative.
2613 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: I also noted, in section 8.3
of your application, that the aboriginal scholarship program is also listed as
an example of a measure to promote employment equity.
2614 Just to clarify, if the
$56,000 was not CTD eligible, then would you redirect this funding, thereby
maintaining your overall CTD budget at $2.1 million, or would you reduce the CTD
commitment by the amount of $56,000?
2615 MR. TRIPATHY: Madam Commissioner, the $2.1 million
figure for CTD is something that we want to honour and commit
to.
2616 Again, if there are
initiatives that are deemed to be not compliant, we have no problem reallocating
them, but the number is $2.1 million.
2617 COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:
Okay. Then, would you still contribute to the
aboriginal scholarship program?
2618 MR. TRIPATHY: I think the initiative is a very
worthwhile program. If, for
whatever reason, it was deemed to be not a part of CTD, given the importance and
some of the initiatives that we have within our application, we would be
prepared to honour that scholarship.
2619 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Would you still be prepared to
honour that commitment to the tune of $56,000?
2620 MR. TRIPATHY: Yes. That would be over and above the $2.1
million, if it was deemed to be that way.
2621 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Thank
you.
2622 With respect to your
contribution to an aboriginal station in Alberta, I also acknowledge your
response in your November 14th letter.
Have you found a station that would benefit from this contribution, and,
if so, what station is it?
2623 MR. TRIPATHY: Madam Commissioner, we have found a
radio station to direct that initiative toward.
2624 I will allow Michael
Bagshaw to explain that a bit further.
2625 MR. M. BAGSHAW: Yes. That was the association, AMMSA, which
was mentioned earlier, and Bert Crowfoot.
CFWE is broadcast out of Edmonton.
It broadcasts across 48 communities and settlements ‑‑ the various
reserves throughout Alberta. That
is where those funds would be allocated.
2626 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Will you sponsor a different
station each year?
2627 MR. M. BAGSHAW: No, those funds would go to that station
to help develop talent within that organization.
2628 MR. TRIPATHY: If I could clarify the operation, as we
understand it, essentially, you have one initial radio station that is creating
the product, so to speak, and then it is beamed via satellite throughout
Alberta, into different First Nations areas.
2629 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: What control mechanisms would
you implement to ensure that the funds allocated to aboriginal radio would be
used as directed; that is, for music recordings, CD manufacturing and talent
promotion, and not for administrative or technical
purposes?
2630 MR. MEANEY: In the letter from Bert Crowfoot that we
submitted today, indicating that he would be willing to work with us, we would
come up with a series of guidelines and initiatives as to how those funds would
be spent.
2631 So we would apply the
same principles that we mentioned earlier with respect to submitting a proposal
and looking for progress reports as we move forward on those programs, as well
as a 20 percent holdback, which would be paid upon completion of those
requirements.
2632 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: For your co‑ordinator
part‑time, which came up today, there would be $100,000.
2633 Can you identify the
proposed CTD initiatives that this co‑ordinator would be responsible for, which
would warrant you creating such a position?
2634 MR. BAGSHAW: Thank you, Madam
Commissioner.
2635 That CTD co‑ordinator
position would essentially be a liaison between ourselves and the organizations
that we build a partnership with for our CTD commitments.
2636 We also envision that
role as being a liaison with the artists themselves.
2637 For example, if the
artists have a CD release or whatnot, we could be involved in organizing
interviews and helping out in any way that we could from a station
standpoint.
2638 He or she would report
back to us and make sure that we are doing all we can to support the artists, as
well as the organizations.
2639 MR. TRIPATHY: I would like to add two particular
points to Mike's comments on that position.
2640 The position we are
looking at is, first of all, a part‑time position. It is designed to be specifically
CTD‑related.
2641 Secondly, the position
we are looking at is to come in Year 4.
2642 As the Commission
reviews our CTD commitments, you will note that there is a significant increase
in Years 4, 5, 6 and 7 which takes place; thus, the reasoning for the position
being implemented at that period in time.
2643 MR. MEANEY: Madam Commissioner, you asked about what
initiatives they would be working with.
The Western Canadian Talent Development Fund increases significantly in
Year 4, so they would be spending time there.
2644 Also, the festivals
increase significantly in Year 4, and we see them spending a lot of time
there.
2645 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: This particular co‑ordinator
would have no other duties in your station?
2646 MR. BAGSHAW: That's right, it would be specifically
for CTD.
2647 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: In the event that this
expenditure is not CTD eligible, would you still maintain your commitment at
$2.1 million?
2648 MR. BAGSHAW: Yes, we would.
2649 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Let's move on to the
financials, please.
2650 The purpose of these
questions is to determine how you arrived at your audience shares, and why the
projected shares would be achievable.
2651 On page 11 of your
November 14th letter, which was in response to deficiency questions, you
included a table of audience projections.
Then, on page 12 of your supplementary brief you stated that these
projections may be a little conservative, but it was your preference to be
cautious rather than overconfident.
2652 Your projections seem a
little bit lower, compared with audience shares recorded by existing stations in
Calgary that rely on the 35‑plus demographic.
2653 If you were more
optimistic, what might you realistically hope to achieve in terms of the
audience share of 12‑plus?
2654 MR. TRIPATHY: Madam Commissioner, you are right. We did take a very, very responsible
approach in putting together our budgets.
2655 I can assure you again
that one of the benefits of our organization is that we do have experience here
in Calgary. We are aware of some of
the potential competitors that we may be up against, and, in putting our numbers
together, we took those into account.
2656 The realities of the
marketplace here in Calgary are such that up to August 2005 the market was $76
million; to December 2005 the market has been growing at roughly 11.2
percent.
2657 To translate it in a
share‑point‑to‑revenue position, you are looking at roughly $760,000 to $800,000
per share point, and our projection is a five share.
2658 If you were to go
numbers to numbers, that would translate to $3.8 million worth of revenue in
Year 1.
2659 The projection you have
there is, obviously, significantly less, and that has been done for a couple of
reasons. One, as a standalone
station, in Year 1 in particular, there will be no access to national revenue
dollars, which will play a part in what is going on.
2660 Secondly, as a
standalone in this marketplace, we wanted to ensure, again, responsibility in
the numbers that were presented to you.
2661 What I can suggest is
that those numbers, as they sit right now, will definitely work. If those numbers are higher, it only
puts our organization and this radio station in a better financial position,
allowing for viability for the long term.
2662 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: How did you translate your
market study? How did you use that
to arrive at your audience projections?
2663 MR. TRIPATHY: Basically what we did in taking a look
at it was, we tried to blend a couple of different thought processes, I
guess.
2664 Yesterday we heard
"bottom‑up" and "top‑down". The way
we tried to take a look at the situation was: get a sense of where the market was
going to be at, and then take a look at what was happening in the marketplace,
as far as other radio stations, and where they were as far as the numbers of
listeners, hours tuned, and so on down the line.
2665 In taking a look at
that and where we are at as far as our results on our research, we arrived,
roughly, at a number of about 5 to 6 percent.
2666 Then, we wanted to
ensure that we were on track, again being responsible, so we spent some time
with a group of consultants out of Toronto that we have been working with, a
gentleman by the name of David Bray of Hennessey & Bray
Communications.
2667 Mr. Bray is a
consultant in the broadcasting industry and has been in this business for quite
a long time.
2668 We handed our situation
over to David. He took a look at
the research, took a look at the overall market, took a look at the revenue
situation, and, based on his determination and his experience, we arrived at
that 5 percent figure.
2669 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: I did note the Hennessey &
Bray study that you attached as one of the appendices to your supplementary
brief, and I had some trouble interpreting the numbers.
2670 Do you have that
study?
2671 MR. TRIPATHY: I apologize, Madam Commissioner, I
wasn't able to hear the study.
2672 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Hennessey &
Bray.
2673 MR. TRIPATHY: All right.
2674 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: I think it was behind your
market study.
2675 MR. TRIPATHY: Madam Commissioner, was there a specific
concern?
2676 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: I was wondering whether you
could walk me through one or two lines, so that I could follow it
better.
2677 MR. TRIPATHY: To clarify, the information I am looking
at is the projected weekly tuning.
Is that correct?
2678 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Yes, the radio
buys.
2679 MR. TRIPATHY: I apologize. To clarify again, are we referring to
the radio buys by demographic?
2680 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Yes.
2681 Let me find my copy
first.
‑‑‑ Pause /
Pause
2682 It doesn't have a page
number, but it starts with "Calgary percentage share of all radio buys,
2004".
2683 MR. TRIPATHY: Okay, we are on the same page. Thank you.
2684 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: How should I read this? How should I interpret these
numbers?
2685 You say in the first
line that 34.495 percent of radio buys are targeted toward the 25 to 54 age
group.
2686 MR. TRIPATHY: That's correct.
2687 The goal of this piece
was to try to show the Commission an understanding of the marketplace, and where
we believe certain target demos are at.
2688 I think the reference
yesterday from one of the applicants was a term referred to as "power
ratio". The thinking behind it was
that certain demos allow for translation into revenue at different levels. That is what this piece is designed to
do.
2689 At the end of the day,
what we wanted to do was show that we haven't pulled the numbers out of a hat,
that we do have an understanding of where we are at in this market, and we do
understand where we are at demographically, as far as where we are going to go
moving forward.
2690 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: In section 5.5 of your
application, you state that revenue projections were calculated based upon
assuming 2 percent of the $75 million that you estimate the Calgary radio
advertising market to be worth.
2691 Why would you project
just 2 percent of the advertising revenue in the market when you are also
projecting to attract 5 percent of radio listeners?
2692 I know that I might be
going over ‑‑
2693 MR. TRIPATHY: No, that's fine. It's a terrific opportunity to clarify
these particular issues, so I appreciate that, Madam
Commissioner.
2694 Again, to give the
thought rationale behind it, we do project a 5 percent share of the marketplace,
first and foremost. You are
absolutely correct, that translates into a figure of between $3.5 million to
$3.8 million.
2695 Our overall revenues in
Year 1 are based on a two share of 1.5, and the factors that are affecting that,
again, are, first, national dollars not coming into play in this
marketplace. National dollars
translate into, roughly, 25 percent of revenue for the established radio
stations here.
2696 So those are dollars we
wouldn't have access to until we are established and actually have numbers to
show on an agency basis.
2697 That was one of the
factors that came in.
2698 The other
factor ‑‑ and you can appreciate that it is not one that many stations have
had to deal with in this market, because, quite frankly, most of the radio
stations are owned by the major groups ‑‑ Corus, Rogers, as well as
Standard.
2699 We had to, in our
minds, be responsible on the projection that we put forward and say: This is the business plan that will
allow us to work. If there are
dollars over and above that translate, because we have such strong relationships
on the sales side and management side in this city, and we are able to leverage
those things, that is all bonus.
But for us to come in and project a high number, we thought, would have
been irresponsible.
2700 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: You are also projecting that
15 percent of your revenue will be diverted from existing radio
stations.
2701 MR. TRIPATHY: That's
correct.
2702 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: In your response to deficiency
questions, in your letter of November 14th, you projected that 55 percent of
your first year revenue would come from incremental spending by existing radio
advertisers.
2703 I am wondering how you
arrived at that estimate.
2704 MR. TRIPATHY: To be perfectly honest, those numbers
are not an exact science at all.
2705 Again, we took a look
at our own experience and tried to get a sense of it.
2706 To suggest to you that
that is something that has been studied to the nth percent would be
incorrect. We are going off our
market experience and our understanding of how Calgary radio
works.
2707 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: That's okay. I am probably reading too much into
it.
2708 At section 5.1 of your
application, on average number of commercial minutes expected to be sold per
hour, you estimate in Year 1 four minutes, at $57 per minute, and then up to
Year 7 it will be six minutes, at $115 per minute.
2709 I wonder how you
arrived at those numbers.
2710 MR. TRIPATHY: The Calgary radio market is a bit of an
unusual market.
2711 To give you a sense of
that, some of the top radio stations in this marketplace, in general terms, for
30‑second ads, are charging in the order of $150, or more, per 30‑second
commercial.
2712 We took a look at that
and, I guess, in arriving at the number we did, said: This is something that we are going to
have to try and work with. Again,
how do we budget? How do we make it
work? Where is the upside that goes
with it?
2713 At $28 per 30‑second
ad, that is a number that is very, very reasonable relative to the
market.
2714 One of the things that
we have sensed in this marketplace, from our experience ‑‑ and we have been
in the market for a number of years ‑‑ is that at some point the cost per
commercial becomes a hindrance and puts up a roadblock, as far as an entry point
is concerned, for some advertisers in this
marketplace.
2715 Initially we have the
opportunity with this format to allow advertisers who currently cannot afford to
be on radio in this great city to come on the radio station, get a sense of what
radio is about, and not only from our bottom line standpoint as a radio
station. Once they get a sense of
radio and what it can do overall, it will allow and afford opportunities, not
just on our station, but to the other radio broadcasters in the
city.
2716 MR. MEANEY: Madam Commissioner, if I may add to
that, these numbers, in terms of minutes sold and the amount per minute, are
tied back to the budget, and then to the percentages of inventory that we would
sell.
2717 As the station becomes
more successful, we would sell more inventory and the rates would go up, up to
Year 7.
2718 That is the
rationale. It is tied back to the
budget, the percentage of inventory used.
2719 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: I might have missed this, and
you could have answered it, but how do those numbers compare to the market right
now?
2720 MR. MEANEY: How do they compare in terms
of...?
2721 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Whatever your numbers were
on ‑‑
2722 MR. MEANEY: In terms of other
stations?
2723 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL:
Yes.
2724 MR. MEANEY: The rates are on the low end. The cost for a 30‑second ad, I believe,
goes anywhere from $35 all the way up to $150, $175.
2725 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: That was what I needed. Thank you.
2726 I am looking at your
financial projections, and I think you are averaging about 19.4 percent ‑‑
average annual growth in revenues.
Does that seem high to you?
2727 I recognize that you
are starting from a low number.
2728 The Conference Board is
projecting retail growth at the rate of 5.1 percent between 2006 and 2010, and
the actual radio ad revenues from 1994 to 2005 were 8.3
percent.
2729 Do you have any comment
on why yours, at 19.4 percent, is realistic and
reasonable?
2730 MR. TRIPATHY: If I could, Madam Commissioner, there
are a couple of points there. One,
you are absolutely right, we are starting at a very responsible budget for Year
1 of 1.5. Translating that forward,
that obviously allows for higher percentage growth moving
ahead.
2731 In addition to
that ‑‑ and you have observed this already ‑‑ that 5 percent market
share that we refer to in Year 1 is something that will be fully developed,
fully taken care of. The potential
will be fulfilled over the seven‑year duration. As a result of that, the numbers, all of
a sudden, start to fall into place.
2732 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: On those financial
projections ‑‑ and, again, I am noting them year‑to‑year ‑‑ I see that
they are declining, and that is reasonable, but I am wondering why the sudden
drop to 5 percent in Year 7.
2733 You go from 60 percent
to 21, 21, 14, 15, and then you drop to 5 percent in the last
year.
2734 MR. MEANEY: Madam Commissioner, I would like to
answer that question, because I was involved in some of
this.
2735 Having been involved in
a standalone radio station in this market, where we started off with very low
revenue, when the station starts to attract numbers and starts to be successful
in the market, the revenues tend to go up in the early years very quickly. However, you get to a point where you
start to mature, and then your growth goes back to ‑‑ it could be back to
the market or less than the market, depending on what your ratings
are.
2736 So, potentially, you
have steep growth in the beginning.
2737 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: I recognize that, but there is
also a very steep drop between Year 6 and Year 7.
2738 I was wondering if you
anticipate something happening in Year 7.
2739 MR. MEANEY: I guess we think we have made it by
then.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
2740 MR. TRIPATHY: Madam Commissioner, you can appreciate
that over a seven‑year term it is very difficult to see where everything is
coming from.
2741 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Yes.
2742 MR. TRIPATHY: In taking a look at those numbers,
again, we wanted to be responsible, understanding that the market has been
growing where it has been growing.
2743 The decrease from Year
6 to Year 7, as Rick indicated, indicates maturation, I guess, of the radio
station.
2744 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: The frequency you have
proposed as your first choice is 92.9, isn't it?
2745 MR. TRIPATHY: That's correct.
2746 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: If that is not available as
your first choice, would you consider the use of another alternative
frequency?
2747 If yes, which
one?
2748 MR. TRIPATHY: Our first choice would be 92.2. We made a commitment from a funding
standpoint to research and choose that particular frequency, for a
reason.
2749 In speaking with your
technical people, as I am sure the Commission has recognized, there can be some
challenges on some of the other frequencies that have been put forward by the
applicants.
2750 We chose to avoid that
and go with 92.9, because it has the clearest signal, and will not have
interference.
2751 If, for whatever
reason, the Commission was to see fit to license us and deemed that 92.9 could
be used by somebody else for better use, we would obviously respect that and
have a look at a particular frequency, if need
be.
2752 This may be a personal
thing, and I may get into trouble with my partners, but 92.9 is definitely the
clearest frequency. One of the
reasons and one of the benefits of this radio station securing that particular
frequency is the broad‑based appeal that this format has. Understanding where we as a company are
trying to go, and where the Commission is trying to go with some of its
initiatives, as far as reflection on community, diversity and multiculturalism,
we are of the opinion that to have a broad‑based format on that particular
frequency would be in the best interests, not only for ourselves, but also for
Calgarians overall.
2753 At the end of the day,
though, we will respect your decision.
2754 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Have you identified any
alternative frequency to 92.9?
2755 MR. TRIPATHY: We have spoken with engineers and we
have a couple of different positions that are potentially
there.
2756 As I indicated, there
are some challenges on most of the frequencies with
interference.
2757 It would seem to us
that probably the most responsible thing to do would be to go back to our
engineers and make sure we clarify the particular frequency that we want to go
with.
2758 We have looked at
alternatives, we are just not exactly sure what would be the best
one.
2759 You can appreciate,
depending on the number of applicants that are licensed, that certain
frequencies will be gone, and they will also put into play a number of different
dynamics, as far as what is best for our group.
2760 But, at the end of the
day, we will take a look at it, if need be.
2761 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Did you take a look at
106.1?
2762 Do you
recall?
2763 MR. MEANEY: Madam Commissioner, I believe there are
some NavCan problems with that one.
2764 So, no, we stayed away
from that.
2765 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: So that would not be a viable
alternative?
2766 MR. MEANEY: No. Having spoken to our engineer ‑‑
and sometimes it is hard to understand what they are trying to tell you ‑‑
he didn't indicate that there was a second full‑power frequency that would be
suitable.
2767 When you get down to
the third one, you start running into impaired
frequencies.
2768 But our position would
be, should you give us a licence and not that frequency, that we would be
willing to look for another frequency.
2769 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: I have two final
questions.
2770 This one is
simple. Your advisory committee of
seven members, which you referred to on page 12 of your supplementary, is that
separate from your board of directors?
2771 I will tell you why I
ask this question. Perhaps it is
just coincidence, but in your incorporating documents you have named seven as
the maximum number of directors.
That just made me wonder whether they are the same
body.
2772 MR. MEANEY: No, that is a
coincidence.
2773 The advisory board
consists of seven separate people.
2774 I don't know if you
want me to go through it or not ‑‑
2775 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: No, that's
okay.
2776 The last question. How many more stations do you think the
Calgary market could absorb?
2777 MR. TRIPATHY: Again, this is a conversation that I am
sure every applicant has had over the last few
weeks.
2778 Being from Calgary, and
understanding what is going on in this marketplace, and understanding the
economics of this city ‑‑ and, quite frankly, the economics of the
broadcast business, because there are a lot of great operators that are
currently in this marketplace that have made this marketplace strong ‑‑ we
are definitely of the opinion that there is room for more than one applicant to
be licensed.
2779 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: I'm sorry, one more
question.
2780 Are the two young
gentlemen sitting back there potential hosts for the kids'
show?
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
2781 MR. TRIPATHY: I am hoping they will be shareholders
one day in the company.
2782 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Thank you very
much.
2783 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Duncan has a few
questions.
2784 COMMISSIONER
DUNCAN: I wanted to clarify, Mr.
Tripathy, in response to Commissioner Del Val's question regarding the CTD
payments for Years 5, 6 and 7, I think you stated 420, 453 and 475,
respectively, for those years, and I notice that those are the totals, in fact,
on the sheet you gave us this morning, except your columns are adding
incorrectly.
2785 So I think the numbers
she had were correct.
2786 Would you agree with
that?
2787 MR. TRIPATHY: Yes, I would.
2788 We
apologize.
2789 COMMISSIONER
DUNCAN: That's all
right.
2790 Those numbers, once
corrected, then come forward to the financial statement that you gave us, the
income statement ‑‑
2791 MR. TRIPATHY: At the end of the day, Commissioner
Duncan, the number is $2.1 million.
2792 COMMISSIONER
DUNCAN: In
total.
2793 MR. TRIPATHY: Yes. And if it has been incorrectly added up,
those funds will be redistributed and totalled up
correctly.
2794 COMMISSIONER
DUNCAN: All right. I am tying them into your statement, and
it looks fine.
2795 I do notice, though,
that on your pro forma statement, which was also provided this morning, I can't
follow the net income as reported on 4.1 of your pro forma statement of changes
in financial position. In the same
vein, I can't trace the depreciation expense to your statement of changes in
financial position.
2796 I just didn't know
whether there was an error and ‑‑
2797 MR. TRIPATHY: In taking a look at the pro
forma ‑‑ a couple of things.
2798 First, we filed a pro
forma statement in response to a deficiency request from the
Commission.
2799 Upon filing that, we
had an adjustment in our CTD commitment, just prior to presenting, which took us
up to the $2.1 million. As a
result, it has had an effect on our pro forma statements.
2800 I think what probably
would be best, if it is acceptable to the Commission, is if we were to review
the totals, make sure they are in order, and then resubmit them so they are
correct.
2801 COMMISSIONER
DUNCAN: I can see that the income
statement ties in with your objective.
I think the problems with the pro forma statement are with changes in
financial position.
2802 That would be
fine.
2803 MR. TRIPATHY: Thank you. We appreciate
that.
2804 COMMISSIONER
DUNCAN: There is one other question
that I have, which is on your opening remarks.
2805 This puzzled me ‑‑
and I am interested in your reaction.
You mention on page 6 that three of the local broadcasters changed their
formats since you did your music research in June. I wondered what the message is that we
should take from that.
2806 They are experienced in
the region, and they moved out of the area that you are wanting to move
into. Do you think it is just
because they wanted to concentrate on a younger audience?
2807 Why wouldn't one of the
three have moved more in the direction that you people want to
go?
2808 MR. TRIPATHY: I will turn that question over to Rick
Meaney.
2809 MR. MEANEY: Commissioner Duncan, there was an
alteration in format, not a change in format.
2810 There was one change in
format, which was on the AM station, from adult standards to traditional
country.
2811 The other
stations ‑‑ with CHFM, because there was an opportunity, I believe, in a
younger demo below them, they broadened their format so they could go
younger.
2812 Why would they do
that? Obviously, I think they could
maximize profits.
2813 In terms of the smooth
jazz station, the information I have is that it would be an improvement for them
to change and, thus, have a better bottom line.
2814 COMMISSIONER
DUNCAN: I suppose, with these
stations putting a greater emphasis on a younger audience, it makes the opening
for you people even better.
2815 MR. TRIPATHY: I think, at the end of the day, that was
the point that we were trying to make.
2816 As well, Commissioner
Duncan, you can appreciate that this market is a very fluid market and, as much
as we are up to date today as we are speaking, there will be further changes
before we move forward next year, depending on who is
licensed.
2817 COMMISSIONER
DUNCAN: Thank you very
much.
2818 Those are my questions,
Mr. Chairman.
2819 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
2820 I have one question,
and legal counsel also has a question.
2821 In your opening remarks
you said that there was no news on Calgary FM stations after 9:00 a.m. until
4:00 p.m. Obviously, you are making
the commitment that you will have news during that time period. For how long?
2822 MS HEALY: We have made the commitment to have news
while we have a licence. That is
part of our commitment, to have news during the daytime.
2823 MR. TRIPATHY: To add to what Laurie said, if the
Commission felt the need to, we would certainly accept it as a condition of
licence.
2824 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
2825 Legal
counsel.
2826 MS BENNETT: Thank you, Mr.
Chair.
2827 I want to clarify,
further to Commissioner Duncan's question a couple of minutes ago, about the CTD
commitment reflected in the table you filed this morning, and in the revised
section 4.1 of your application. I
want to confirm that you understand that the CTD COL would be based on the
annual commitments reflected in section 4.1.
2828 So, yes, the seven‑year
$2.1 million commitment is relevant, but the actual COL would reflect those
annual incremental amounts that are outlined in section
4.1.
2829 MR. TRIPATHY: I'm sorry, could I ask you to repeat the
question?
2830 MS BENNETT: Sure. The revised section 4.1 that you filed
this morning reflects the annual CTD amounts that were reflected in your letter
of December 9, 2005. As you were
discussing earlier, it is $108,000 per year for Years 1 to 3, then $368,000 for
Year 4, $440,000 for Year 5, $473,000 for Year 6, and $495,000 for Year 7. The condition of licence with respect to
CTD would reflect those specific annual amounts, not just the total seven‑year
commitment.
2831 MR. TRIPATHY: Yes.
2832 MS BENNETT: Thank you.
2833 That is my only
question.
2834 THE CHAIRPERSON: You agreed to refile the financial
statement and the cash flow statement.
When could we expect to receive them?
2835 MR. TRIPATHY: We would be more than happy to have
those numbers recalculated and back to the Commission by week's
end.
2836 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could we expect to have them at the
reply time on Friday?
2837 MR. TRIPATHY: I think that would be very
doable.
2838 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right. That's fair, because we need to have a
complete record.
2839 This is your
opportunity, in your own words, to tell us, in no more than five minutes, the
reasons why you think the Commission should grant you this
licence.
2840 MR. TRIPATHY: I am glad you put that time limit on it,
because I would have gone on all day.
2841 First and foremost, we
would like to thank everyone for the opportunity to speak here today. We believe the seventies and eighties
soft rock format that we are offering is the most distinctive choice for the
Calgary radio market in terms of minimum overlap and minimum impact on existing
stations.
2842 Our target demo of 35
to 64 is currently the most under‑served group in the Calgary
market.
2843 As far as the business
plan, we filed a realistic business plan and revenue projections, based on the
strength of the Calgary economy and the radio market.
2844 Our local sales,
programming and management team have the experience here in Calgary and the
business relationships that will make this station a
success.
2845 The proposed Canadian
content of 35 percent is realistic.
It is practical for a new station, and it is targeted at an older
demographic.
2846 We are committed to new
and emerging artists. Our focus is
on Canadian artists, and we will specifically seek to include artists from
Calgary, as well as Alberta.
2847 Our Canadian Talent
Development initiatives, totalling $2.1 million in direct costs over the
seven‑year licence term, will contribute substantially to the promotion of
Canadian artists.
2848 We are a new voice in
the Calgary market. We are local,
we are independent, and we will provide Calgarians with a new editorial voice
and a new choice on the FM band for the 35‑64 demographic.
2849 The shareholders of
Calgary Independent Radio Broadcasters Incorporated are longtime residents of
Calgary. We have been involved in
broadcasting, and we live here in this community.
2850 STAR FM will include
and reflect the aboriginal and the ethnic diversity of Calgary in its
programming, in its staffing, and in its management.
2851 We believe that
granting an FM licence to our group would meet the objectives of the
Broadcasting Act and the Radio Policy of 1998, which are: diversity of voice, fair competition,
and diversity of formats.
2852 At the end of the day,
Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, you have been presented a unique opportunity,
and we believe that you are in an enviable position to take a look at an
application that is, one, local, two, independent, and three, backed by an
incredible amount of broadcast experience.
2853 We have looked at the
other applications from B.C., from the groups in Saskatchewan, from Manitoba,
from Ontario and the Maritimes.
They are terrific applications, but, at the end of the day, what we want
to emphasize to the Commission is, there is only one application here in
Calgary, which is by Calgarians and for Calgarians.
2854 We thank you for your
time.
2855 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Tripathy. We thank your
group.
2856 We will recess for five
minutes to allow the members of the next Applicant to take their
places.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1100
/
Suspension à
1100
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at
1110
Reprise à
1110
2857 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.
2858 Madam
Secretary.
2859 MS BOULET: Thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
2860 We will now proceed
with Item 6 on the agenda, which is an application by Jim Pattison Broadcast
Group Limited, the general partner, and Jim Pattison Industries Limited, the
limited partner, carrying on business as Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Limited
Partnership, for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio
programming undertaking in Calgary.
2861 The new station would
operate on Frequency 90.3 Mhz, Channel 212‑C1, with an effective radiated power
of 100,000 watts, non‑directional antenna, antenna height of 298.5
metres.
2862 Appearing for the
Applicant is Mr. Rick Arnish, who will introduce his
colleagues.
2863 He will have 20 minutes
for his presentation.
2864 Mr.
Arnish.
PRESENTATION /
PRÉSENTATION
2865 MR. ARNISH: Thank you very much, Madam
Secretary.
2866 Good morning, Mr.
Chairman, Members of the Commission and Commission Staff. My name is Rick Arnish, and I am
president of the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group.
2867 We are very pleased to
be here with you this morning to present to you our application for a new soft
vocals FM station, SILK FM, to serve the City of Calgary.
2868 Before we begin our
presentation, it is my pleasure to introduce the SILK FM
team.
2869 To my immediate right,
and to your left, is Gerry Siemens, Vice President and General Manager of the
Pattison Broadcast Group's Vancouver stations. Gerry is a native Calgarian, has been in
the broadcast industry for 32 years, and was the program director for two
Calgary radio stations in the nineties.
2870 His family still calls
Calgary home, and he quarterbacked the development of our
application.
2871 Beside Gerry is Jasmin
Doobay, currently a news director within the Pattison Group, who will speak to
the news, current events and arts section of our
application.
2872 Jasmin has been in the
broadcast industry for 14 years, and has worked as a broadcast journalist in
western Canada for 12 years, the last 3 of which have been with the Pattison
Broadcast Group.
2873 To my left, and to your
right, is Angela Kelman, a former member of the Juno Award‑winning Canadian
country music group Farmer's Daughter.
Angela released a solo smooth vocal CD of pop standards a couple of years
ago, has recorded a children's album, and is a professional music
teacher.
2874 Beside Angela is Kat
Stewart, Broadcast Group head at the B.C. Institute of Technology in Vancouver,
and a graduate of the Canadian Women in Communications Radio Career Accelerator
Program.
2875 In the second row,
beginning at your far right, is Bruce Davis, Vice President of Sales for the
Pattison Broadcast Group. Bruce is
a 38‑year veteran of the broadcast industry, and has spent most of his career in
Alberta, including Edmonton and Calgary.
2876 Beside Bruce is Kim
McKechnie, currently a sales manager within the Pattison Group. Kim also works with the Pattison real
estate division, on a part‑time basis, in land development negotiations with
government, and is familiar with the Calgary market.
2877 To Kim's right is Chris
Weafer, legal counsel from Owen Bird.
2878 Beside Chris is John
Yerxa, President of John Yerxa Research Inc. from
Edmonton.
2879 Beside John is Frank
Lee, a secondary school music teacher.
2880 Completing our seated
panel is Bill Dinicol, Vice President of Finance of the Pattison Broadcast
Group.
2881 Standing to my right,
and to give you a small taste of the Canadian talent that is being developed at
the high school level, are four Grade 12 students ‑‑ Corey Hollett, Noel
Hollett, David McHugh, and James Turner ‑‑ who call themselves
"Synergy".
‑‑‑ MUSICAL PRESENTATION /
PRÉSENTATION MUSICALE
2882 Mr. Chairman, we are
now ready to begin our presentation.
2883 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I think that was the resurrection of the
barbershop quartet.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
2884 THE CHAIRPERSON: It is very good to see young people
singing a cappella. I appreciate it
very much.
2885 MR. ARNISH: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. That was truly an outstanding
presentation, and Seacove Secondary in North Vancouver would be very proud of
"Synergy" this morning here in Calgary.
2886 As you just said, Mr.
Chairman, it is another example of Canadian talent developing in our high school
systems in western Canada.
2887 We will talk more about
"Synergy" and the Save the Music Foundation later in our
presentation.
2888 Mr. Chairman,
Commission Members, the application we have before you is very important, and it
is a very important application for the Jim Pattison Broadcast
Group.
2889 Approving the Pattison
Broadcast Group application would add significant strength to one of the very
few longstanding, western‑based, multi‑station broadcasting
companies.
2890 It would allow us to
strengthen connections with our existing stations in Alberta by extending our
regional coverage, which is important to our news gathering and reporting
structure throughout the province.
2891 It would also be our
first major market station in Alberta, which would create opportunities for our
employees to experience both major markets and small markets while remaining in
Alberta.
2892 As the Commission is
aware, we have invested heavily in smaller markets, but need the large market
presence to ensure our overall stable competitive
position.
2893 Licensing the Pattison
Broadcast Group would also add a strongly needed western‑Canadian‑based
independent voice to the Calgary market, a market that is unique to Canadian
broadcasting, in that 11 of the 13 commercial stations are eastern based, and 10
of those are owned by only 3 companies, all based out of
Toronto.
2894 We believe, consistent
with Commission criteria, that a new station for Calgary
must:
2895 One, provide a new
format choice which adds diversity in the market.
2896 Two, have strong
Canadian Talent Development initiatives and other tangible benefits that
contribute to the Canadian broadcast system.
2897 Three, be based on a
solid but realistic business plan, and have the financial resources of a strong
owner to ensure that commitments are met over a seven‑year licence
term.
2898 Four, have minimal
impact on the existing players.
2899 Five, be of benefit to
the local community.
2900 The Pattison
application addresses all of those points, the highlights of which we will
discuss today.
2901 The soft vocals format
we have chosen would be unique in the Calgary market, and would serve an
audience that is currently not serviced by existing
broadcasters.
2902 To speak on the feel
and flavour of the new SILK FM, here is Gerry Siemens.
2903 MR. SIEMENS: In studying the market, we determined
that nearly half of the population in Calgary is between the ages of 35 and 64,
and that fully 38 percent of the people in Calgary are over the age of 45, yet
none of the existing Calgary FM stations focus on this ever‑increasing segment
of the population.
2904 We confirmed that fully
one‑third of Calgarians between the ages of 35 and 64 said they would listen to
an oldies‑based, soft vocals station a lot, and that nearly 70 percent of that
same demographic said they would give such a station
consideration.
2905 The soft vocals format
of today has evolved from what was known as "middle of the road" in the sixties
and seventies. Our station will be
music intensive, and will highlight music that is currently not being exposed on
any station in the Calgary marketplace.
2906 The station will be
targeted to the 35 to 64‑year‑old demographic, primarily those who are
45‑plus.
2907 SILK FM will highlight
new Canadian music that has no other home in the Calgary marketplace. A minimum of 25 percent of the Canadian
music we play will be newer Canadian music.
2908 The Pattison Broadcast
Group is intimately familiar with the soft vocals format through our experience
with 600 AM Vancouver, and we know that there is an ever‑growing list of
Canadian artists which we have contributed to developing.
2909 To name a few, Megan
Fanning, Armi Grano, Susan Arioli, Carol Welsman, Holly Cole, Tammy Weiss, Doug
Lallo, Tina Moore, our friend Angela Kelman, and many
others.
2910 We are encouraged to
see young talent such as "Synergy", who you just heard, and look forward to
adding them to our playlist.
2911 SILK FM will be an
oasis of tasteful music, diverse in sound, with low
repetition.
2912 It will have enough
familiarity to attract and hold listeners, and enough new music to entice them
to listen longer.
2913 We plan to further
enhance the sound of the station through special long‑form spoken word programs,
on topics of interest to the demographic, as described in our application, as
well as short‑form features, such as "The Flavours of Calgary" and the SILK FM
"Travel Diary".
2914 News, current events
and coverage of the arts will also be central to the success of our proposed
station.
2915 To comment on those
components is Jasmin Doobay.
2916 MS DOOBAY: An older demographic has a greater need
to know than a younger one, and SILK FM will respond with a minimum of 5 hours
and 13 minutes of news per week.
This will set us apart from the existing FM stations in the Calgary
market, where only one station has any news after the breakfast program, and
where news content is virtually non‑existent on weekends.
2917 Our newsroom will be
staffed seven days a week, and newscasts will be spread evenly throughout the
broadcast day.
2918 Our station will
provide a new editorial and news programming voice into the Calgary market,
where so many voices are controlled by so few owners.
2919 The news coverage on
our station will go beyond headlines.
Each day we will produce, in‑house, a 30‑minute current events program
called "In Touch", which will allow us to probe deeper into stories that affect
the lives of Calgarians.
2920 The best stories of the
week will be expanded upon for our longer Sunday morning program, "The In Touch
Weekend Edition".
2921 The 35‑64 demographic
is a huge supporter of the arts, and SILK FM will have, as an integral part of
our schedule, much needed coverage of arts and culture in the City of
Calgary.
2922 "On the Street" is an
entertainment billboard airing four times a day.
2923 "Arts and Stuff", an
arts feature, will also broadcast four times a day, will highlight concert
information, gallery and theatre openings, and other cultural events of interest
in the community.
2924 Our arts coverage will
culminate with the Sunday morning program "Into the Arts". This 60‑minute magazine program will
preview the upcoming week's performances, visual and literary arts events, using
on‑location interviews and coverage.
2925 MR. ARNISH: The Pattison Broadcast Group is very
proud of the $7 million in CTD initiatives and tangible benefits that we have
developed in support of our Calgary application.
2926 Of that amount, we have
dedicated $5.6 million for Canadian Talent Development initiatives, including
$3.5 million for the Save the Music Foundation.
2927 This initiative is
designed to enhance and complement existing high school and secondary music
education programs in Alberta and British Columbia to assist in the development
of excellence.
2928 It is a unique
initiative, specifically designed for western Canada, and its role will be to
help identify, fund and develop the best of the best.
2929 We believe that to
develop Canadian talent we must, as broadcasters, expand beyond only assisting
professional and semi‑professional musicians.
2930 Many of those programs
are already in place and are having a positive effect on the broadcasting and
music industries.
2931 We have been active,
long‑term supporters of FACTOR and similar initiatives, and will continue to
be.
2932 The Save the Music
initiative is based on a firmly held belief that development of Canadian talent
must begin with our youth.
2933 Earlier you heard
"Synergy". I am sure you will agree
that, for four 17‑year‑old young adults, they have an extraordinary
skill.
2934 This year they will
graduate from high school. Where is
the vehicle to assist them to the next level?
2935 If they were hockey
players, they would move to a junior league and prepare for a possible
professional career at an increased level of play.
2936 The Save the Music
Foundation will be in a position to assist groups like "Synergy" with funding,
mentoring, equipment purchases, and travel costs.
2937 The members of
"Synergy" come from a high school with a very good music program, yet, as Mr.
Lee of our panel can attest, a great deal of their time, and that of their
teacher and families, is spent fundraising.
2938 The Save the Music
Foundation will enable hundreds of young adults to work on their music and on
their other studies, secure in the knowledge that there is a solid floor of
support beneath their feet.
2939 By joining forces with
the Rocky Mountain Music Festival, we have been able to access instant expertise
and an established network of musical educators that has taken festival
organizer Willie Connell a lifetime to build. Mr. Connell will be here to speak to you
later this week.
2940 I would now ask Angela
Kelman to give her perspective on the Save the Music
initiative.
2941 MS KELMAN: I am here today to support the Pattison
Broadcast Group for a couple of reasons.
2942 One, I am a recording
artist who will potentially benefit from the station format that is being
applied for today.
2943 Two, I am the product
of a healthy music program in the public school system that recognized my level
of talent, provided a vehicle to develop my skills, and gave me the confidence
to follow my dream of having a career as a recording artist and
entertainer.
2944 In my teens I had the
great fortune to start a high school band that was very different from the
norm. The band was the vision of a
highly motivated teacher, Mr. Gerry Perkin, who donated his own time and
resources. This man changed my
life.
2945 By recognizing my
talent and helping to develop real‑life experiences of working singers and
musicians, such as live concerts at our own high school, as well as other
schools around the province, our own television show at the local TV station,
and setting foot in a recording studio to record our first record, I was started
on the career path I follow today.
2946 I feel it is my
responsibility to help guide the next generation of singers and musicians who
will represent Canada on the world stage.
2947 The Pattison Broadcast
Group's Save the Music program will concentrate on and foster the strengths of
kids who have what it takes, ensuring that Canada has future generations of
artists to be proud of.
2948 MR. ARNISH: In addition to the Save the Music
Foundation, the Pattison Broadcast Group has committed funding, and additional
$2.1 million, in Canadian talent initiatives.
2949 We need an early and
regular supply of Canadian content recordings. Local artists can always use a leg up,
so SILK FM has committed $1.19 million in direct spending and $1.75 million in
indirect value to the recording of two CD compilations annually for seven
years.
2950 A free concert will be
held in Calgary, showcasing the artists, and broadcast as part of our regular
feature "Somewhere Live".
2951 The second initiative,
SILK Series ‑ Road Version, will see the station fund a series of concerts
featuring Canadian artists, with a special emphasis on profiling local
musicians. We will provide $50,000
to Canadian musicians annually for this project.
2952 Finally, the Pattison
Broadcast Group pledges annual support of $30,000 to the Calgary Philharmonic
Orchestra, and $50,000 to the Alberta Recording Industry
Association.
2953 MR. SIEMENS: As proud as we are of our Canadian
talent initiatives, we believe that broadcasters can and should also contribute
by getting involved in other areas of the industry. That is why we have proposed $1.4
million in other tangible benefits.
2954 That figure includes a
$700,000 commitment to Canadian Women in Communications, half of which will be
used to save the Radio Career Accelerator Program for women, and half of which
will be earmarked to launch a new career accelerator program designed to assist
the careers of visible minorities, aboriginal persons and persons with
disabilities.
2955 We are pleased to have
with us the broadcast program head from the B.C. Institute of Technology, Ms Kat
Stewart. Kat has experienced the
Career Accelerator program firsthand and would be pleased to answer any
questions you have on the benefits of the program.
2956 MS STEWART: Completing the CWC's career accelerator
program for radio left me empowered, revitalized and energized. It enhanced my knowledge of the radio
industry and broadened my ability to network with key industry representatives
across Canada.
2957 The program provided an
ability to utilize the guest speakers as resources for my professional
enhancement, to expand my course content, and provided information on key
technological changes and insight into future
possibilities.
2958 The course also
introduced motivational techniques to inspire personal growth and facilitate
opportunities to enhance my mentorship abilities for
students.
2959 As a broadcaster, my
philosophy in the classroom is to encourage, excite and motivate students to
pursue excellence in radio. That
commitment challenges me to pursue knowledge and apply it to my personal and
professional development.
2960 The CWC radio
accelerator program is out of funding, and I am worried that it will soon die,
which would be a great loss for all women in the Canadian broadcast
industry.
2961 MR. SIEMENS: We have also pledged $700,000 to two
other important initiatives: one, a
strategic alliance with the Alberta Métis Association and the Alberta College of
Art and Design, which will see the development of two continuing adult education
programs; and two, the second commitment, the development of a new program
called Broadcast Leadership Bootcamp at SAIT.
2962 The camp will be to
better prepare persons employed in the broadcast industry for management
opportunities.
2963 Our employment equity
initiatives are designed to be of benefit and to lower entry barriers in the
broadcast industry for the four designated groups, or to encourage career
acceleration of the four groups for those that are already in the
industry.
2964 Finally, the Pattison
Broadcast Group undertakes, at a minimum, that 50 percent of the new hires for
our startup operation will be representatives of the four designated
groups.
2965 MR. ARNISH: Mr. Chairman, you have a large number of
applicants before you for these important Calgary frequencies. We are all making promises about our
contributions to the community, to Canadian talent and to the system, but to
deliver on these contributions there must be a business
case.
2966 The Pattison Broadcast
Group has a long history of running specialized formats in our Vancouver
operation, where we have operated our FM station in a country format for 20
years.
2967 Our AM station has been
in a niche format for 13 years, the last 8 of which have been in a soft vocals
format, very similar to what we are proposing for Calgary.
2968 We know how to
successfully operate a specialized format competitively in a major
market.
2969 We know that we must be
patient. As a new station appealing
to the upper end of a key demographic, it takes time to find its
feet.
2970 We know that this
format will work, given time. We
are committed to making it work.
2971 We are confident in our
ability to meet the ambitious commitments that we have made. We have a solid and attainable business
plan, and we have the resources of the Pattison Group of Companies behind
us.
2972 The Broadcast Group is
at the very cornerstone of that group of companies, and we are in the broadcast
industry for the long haul.
2973 In every business that
the Pattison Group goes into, it does so on the premise that the business is
multi‑generational, and our commitments in this Calgary process go beyond any
given licence term.
2974 Mr. Chairman, we
believe that the fact that we are a western‑based broadcast group is a critical
component of our application.
2975 Consolidation of
ownership has indeed strengthened the Canadian broadcast system, but it has also
reduced the diversity of editorial voices and created an imbalance, where almost
every newspaper, radio and television station is controlled by eastern
ownership.
2976 That situation is
exacerbated in Calgary, where 10 of the 13 commercial radio stations are
controlled by 3 companies, and where 11 of the 13 have ownership in eastern
Canada.
2977 As a regional player,
we have experience in competing against the major eastern Canadian radio players
in Vancouver. We are in the
business for the long haul and have the resources to successfully compete in the
Calgary market, with a format that will not impact on the existing radio
stations.
2978 None of these companies
has intervened against our application, recognizing that there will be no
material harm caused by the addition of our station.
2979 Mr. Chairman, the
Pattison Broadcast Group keeps its promises and serves its communities. We have a core belief that the more we
serve our community, the more successful we will be.
2980 In the acquisition of
Monarch Broadcasting in 2001, we committed over $1 million to build a
state‑of‑the‑art media arts centre for young students at Pacific Academy in
Surrey, British Columbia.
2981 That outstanding
facility was open to students in September of 2005.
2982 In 2005 our radio and
TV stations gave back $10.3 million in PSA and community service time to the
towns and cities we work in.
2983 We operate excellent
radio stations. New Country 93.7
JRFM has been named Canada's country music station of the year by "Canada Music
Week" two years in a row, and is nominated for a third.
2984 Our group has received
a number of CAB Gold Ribbon Awards, RTNDA Awards, along with many others in
recent years.
2985 Recognition for this
commitment was accorded Mr. Pattison, when he was awarded the Canadian
Association of Broadcasters' most prestigious award, the Gold Ribbon for
Broadcast Excellence.
2986 The Pattison Broadcast
Group is poised for growth and is committed to continued investment in the
broadcast industry, with an application pending for the purchase of Island Radio
and two other applications pending for new FM stations.
2987 However, the Pattison
Broadcast Group is also facing challenges in the markets we
serve.
2988 In 2005, our primary
competitor in Kamloops was granted a third radio licence.
2989 There are many FM
applications pending in three other markets that we are licensed to serve: Grand Prairie, Medicine Hat and
Lethbridge.
2990 There can be little
doubt that our operations in these smaller markets are going to be challenged in
the coming years, which makes our application for Calgary all the more critical
to our ability to service our communities at the high level that our audience
and the Commission have come to expect.
2991 As our second major
market, Calgary would strengthen a growing, western‑based Canadian broadcast
company.
2992 In conclusion, Members
of the Commission, we have a unique format designed for an audience that is
being under‑served. We have a
business plan that is workable, and we have the resources to compete with the
major chains from eastern Canada.
2993 We have committed $7
million in tangible benefits, including $5.6 million in unique Canadian talent
initiatives.
2994 Finally, we have the
very original and brand new Canadian Talent Development initiative, the Save the
Music Foundation, which will impact Canadian talent where it really matters,
with our youth.
2995 We submit that we will
provide significant benefits to the community of
Calgary.
2996 Thank you for your kind
consideration. We welcome your
questions.
2997 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.
Arnish.
2998 My questions will
relate to: audience clarifications,
particularly regarding your demographic; establishing the differences and the
similarities between the Pattison application and the competing applications;
music format clarification; CTD; your projected revenues; and some questions on
alternative frequencies.
2999 I will start with my
first line of questions, which have to do with your target
audience.
3000 In your application you
have identified the 35‑64 demographic as your target audience. In your supplementary brief, on page 14,
you state that the core target audience will be the 45‑plus age group. Again, this morning in your oral
presentation you mentioned that.
3001 Could you confirm to
the Commission whether your core target audience is indeed
45‑plus?
3002 I think you said so in
your oral presentation, but I would like you to confirm that for the
record.
3003 MR. SIEMENS: The broad target, Mr. Chairman, is 35 to
64. The specific target will be
adults 45‑plus. We could narrow it
down further. If we had to be very
precise, we would be targeting adults 45 to 54 years of
age.
3004 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
3005 You describe your
proposed music format as soft vocal music from a variety of genres, but
predominantly classics from the fifties, sixties and
seventies.
3006 As you are aware, there
are three other applicants in this hearing, and we have already heard
them ‑‑ they were the last three applicants ‑‑ that are proposing
similar music services, and are also targeting a similar
audience.
3007 Could you please
explain how you believe your proposed format would be more successful in
reaching the same target audience as the other three
applicants?
3008 MR. SIEMENS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will speak to that for a moment, and
then I will ask John Yerxa for a comment.
3009 I think the difference
between the Evenov, the Larson, and the Pattison applications comes down to
this: it is primarily
focus.
3010 The mainstay of our
format is the soft vocal music of the sixties and the
seventies.
3011 People develop a
passion for the music they listen to when they are primarily between the ages of
12 and 20 years of age. That is
about the age that a young person decides to move away from their parents' taste
and develop tastes of their own, and it's that 12 to 20 age group where music is
really, really important to young people.
3012 If we consider that to
be true, a woman who turned 10 in 1965 is today 50 years of age. A woman who turned 10 in 1975 is 40
years of age. So the sixties and
seventies were their formative years, and those were the years when they
developed a passion for the music.
3013 The second focus of our
station is new music from the last six years. We have committed that a minimum of 25
percent of Canadian music that we play will be from the last six years, and in
fact it is likely to be much higher than that as a result of the hit/non‑hit
rule.
3014 The third element of
our station is the salt and pepper, if you will, which are the standards from
the likes of Sinatra, Dean Martin, Nat King Cole, Sammy Davis Jr., and so
on.
3015 It comes down,
primarily, to focus. Our music mix
will be approximately 60 percent from the sixties and seventies, 35 percent from
the last six years, and then 5 percent from the fifties, which is the salt and
pepper that I referred to.
3016 I think the other
differentiating factors between Evanov, Larson and ourselves is that we have the
money to hire professional communicators.
With all due respect, in our opinion, it is not reasonable to hire
20‑year‑old students and expect them to communicate with a 50‑year‑old
audience.
3017 An important part of
our application is that we are committed to an employment equity initiative that
will see 50 percent of our new hires be representative of the four designated
groups.
3018 I think, in licensing a
new operation, the Commission has a unique opportunity to meet employment equity
initiatives, and our proposal is distinct in this regard.
3019 With regard to the
format differentials between ourself and the other two applicants you mentioned,
I will ask John Yerxa to speak to that.
3020 MR. YERXA: Mr. Chairman, just a clarification. Do you wish me to speak on what an
oldies‑based AC radio station is, or do you wish me to specifically address the
differences between Pattison and the other applicants in this
realm?
3021 THE CHAIRPERSON: I would prefer that you address the
second part, the differences between your application and the other
applications.
3022 MR. YERXA: What I would like to do, then, is refer
to a memo that I recently passed on to Mr. Arnish. I will refer to that in dealing
specifically with the other three applicants before us.
3023 Upon examining the
research done for the Calgary Independent Broadcasters' Application, and
comparing it with Pattison, it is quite obvious that the difference is
essentially one of sixties and seventies versus seventies and
eighties.
3024 Whereas the Pattison
format would attract a larger proportion of 45‑plus listeners by playing soft
vocals from the sixties and seventies, the Calgary Independent format would
encompass more 35 to 44‑year‑olds by playing more soft rock from the seventies
and eighties.
3025 Even though seventies
music is the common thread here, according to Pattison's research, there is a
bigger, more distinct FM hole in the market for their format, simply because
there are more FM stations playing eighties music in Calgary ‑‑ for
example, JACK FM ‑‑ than there are FM stations playing sixties
music.
3026 Regarding the Larson
and Norscot application, when I look at their research findings ‑‑ and I
note on page 23 of their supplementary brief that of all the music types which
they presented to respondents in order to help them better define the musical
composition of their radio station, of the 8 types presented, the top 2 most
popular groups that emerged encompassed sixties and seventies vocals, those
groups which perfectly describe the Pattison format, and which any broadcaster
would be well advised to present if they wanted to create a popular, not to
mention viable format for 35 to 64‑year‑olds.
3027 However, near the
bottom of their interest rankings are the classic performances and classic
re‑makes, those artists which they are actually heavily billboarding in their
application.
3028 Therefore, if they do
in fact end up emphasizing those kinds of artists, then they will certainly be
offering more adult standards and nostalgia artists and classic re‑makes than
Pattison is prepared to do, hence, skewing
older.
3029 With regard to Evanov,
they appear to be proposing an exceptionally broad format, one which someone on
their panel described yesterday as all‑encompassing and all‑inclusive. It sounds a bit like a family union,
but, from a programming perspective, it is pretty difficult to attract both
35‑year‑olds and 60‑year‑olds by playing the same music, unless maybe it's
country.
3030 So you pretty well end
up drifting in one direction or the other.
3031 Therefore, our analysis
suggests that the Evanov format will probably end up skewing older than
Pattison. After all, as Evanov
says, I think, on page 5 of their supplementary brief, the ratio of classic to
current will be weighted in favour of classic.
3032 I hope that
helps.
3033 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
3034 My second question will
be directed toward the incumbent radio stations. Some of them are already offering the
type of music that you are proposing.
3035 Could you explain how
you believe your proposed format will better serve that demographic than those
stations are currently doing?
3036 MR. SIEMENS: Mr. Chairman, we did a two‑day BDS
monitor of stations in the market that we thought might play some of the same
music we do, and we found that there was only a 3 percent duplication with CHFM
and a 6 percent duplication with what was then "The Breeze". Both of those stations have since
altered their programming somewhat, and I don't think there will be any
duplication whatsoever.
3037 With regard to the
older demographic, you have JACK, which is predominantly a male station,
targeting men 25 to 44. There is
CJ, a rock station, targeting men.
CKRY is a country station.
It skews a little bit older, attracting an audience that is 25 to 54
years of age. The other FM station,
"The Vibe", is very young, 18 to 34.
There is Classic Rock, again a male station. And then there is the Christian station,
which is a specialized audience.
3038 When we look at those
radio stations and who we might impact, we might take a bit from CHFM,
but ‑‑
3039 As a matter of fact, in
the mid‑nineties I was the program director at CHFM. In fact, I was the program director on
duty when we put it into its current "Light 96" format. So I am very familiar with the direction
of that radio station, and we don't see any duplication of music there at
all.
3040 Mr. Yerxa, perhaps you
could comment further on where the audience will come
from.
3041 MR. YERXA: First of all, when Pattison approached
me, having launched three stations in the market already ‑‑ and we are in
the market usually about every three months ‑‑ the first thing they asked
was: Who should we
survey?
3042 I said: You really have two options. You can go upper end or lower
end.
3043 Based on our
discussions, we decided to go upper end.
3044 Having said that,
having focused on the 35 to 64 demographic, we then presented what we considered
to be a fairly good group of music types that we knew appealed to those people,
and we recognized that the four groups which were the most popular ‑‑
because, really, when you do these format finder studies, it all breaks down to
popularity and availability.
3045 What we discovered was
that the four most popular music types ‑‑ I believe they were classic rock,
country, light rock, and eighties ‑‑ although they were the most popular,
they were already perceived to be well served on the FM
dial.
3046 However, the remaining
four groups, although not necessarily able to stand individually on their own,
when you amalgamated them into a group ‑‑ this oldies‑based soft AC
concept ‑‑ you realized that there was definitely potential there, but,
most importantly, upon examining each of those groups, you discovered that there
really wasn't a specific radio station on the FM dial that was serving any of
those decades, if you will.
3047 So that is how we came
up with the concept of the oldies‑based AC format.
3048 As far as its impact on
existing radio stations and the crossover, the fact is that this station will be
primarily focused on music before 1980, apart from the Cancon, which is very
important as far as flavouring and texture is concerned.
3049 These other radio
stations, by and large, are offering different music, be it classic rock or
country, or light rock, or eighties, and they are, of course, primarily playing
music that is 1980s or more current.
3050 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We will move now to the music section of
your application.
3051 You have proposed a
music format, which you have referred to using various descriptions: soft vocals, timeless soft vocals,
classic music, and soft vocals/adult standards.
3052 I would refer you to
your supplementary brief. These can
be found on pages 12 to 14, where you have used these different
descriptions.
3053 Which of these best
describes your proposed format, and could you give us the particular features of
your chosen format?
3054 MR. SIEMENS: The descriptor we prefer is the soft
vocals format, because of the primary focus, which I
mentioned.
3055 Mr. Yerxa, I will ask
you to comment again in a moment.
3056 It is because of the
primary focus that I mentioned a few minutes ago, targeting that particular
demographic: 35 to 64 in broad
terms; 45 to 54 in very narrow terms; and the focus of the music being,
fundamentally, from the sixties and seventies, when these people were developing
an emotional tie with the music of the day.
3057 MR. YERXA: From a research standpoint, we have our
own term. We call it oldies‑based
soft AC.
3058 First, let me begin by
saying, in this respect, that when you look at the 45‑plus demographic in many
markets, apart from country, what is largely available today, what broadcasters
tend to want to offer these listeners, are these niche formats, like adult
standards, smooth jazz and so on.
3059 Many AC stations, for
example ‑‑ adult contemporary stations ‑‑ in the past number of years
have definitely drifted into more contemporary or ‑‑ I think you heard the
term "brighter" used earlier. As a
result, there now remains this whole batch of music that we no longer
hear ‑‑ artists like Barbra Streisand, Simon and Garfunkle, and so
on ‑‑ which, again, from a research perspective, we term "Square
AC".
3060 Likewise, there are
acts like James Taylor, Carole King, Linda Ronstadt, the Little River
Band ‑‑ numerous other seventies‑based artists that AC radio has simply
left behind.
3061 This sound currently
represents a huge void in many markets across this
country.
3062 If you want to spice it
up with a few adult classic performers and classic re‑makes by artists like
Michael Buble, that's great, but a specific focus on sixties and seventies
music, over time, will help you to achieve your maximum share potential with 45
to 54‑year‑old listeners, and, therefore, have a significant influence within
the 35 to 64 demographic.
3063 The reality is, once
most people, like myself, turn 45, we don't, all of a sudden, start wanting to
listen to the music our parents listened to, but we wouldn't mind listening to
some of the music we heard 30 years ago.
3064 I would also like to
add that this reality, this situation, in my view, partially explains the
phenomenal success of the JACK format, and its various cousins or clones,
because, when it comes right down to it, that concept is probably, musically
speaking, offering a menu to those listeners that is closest to the era we are
talking about.
3065 THE CHAIRPERSON: In reviewing the sample two‑day music
playlist that you provided with your application, staff have observed that there
could be some Category 3 music selections.
3066 Would you be
broadcasting a minimum weekly amount of Category 3 music? If yes, what would be the
amount?
3067 MR. SIEMENS: If there was any at all, it would be an
insignificant amount. We don't have
any plans to broadcast Category 3 music.
3068 If some of these titles
fell into that category ‑‑
3069 THE CHAIRPERSON: They, more than likely, would be
crossovers.
3070 MR. SIEMENS: I would think so.
3071 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you planning to play any music of
the fifties?
3072 MR. SIEMENS: Yes, Mr. Chairman. As I mentioned a bit earlier, that would
be the flavouring ‑‑ the salt and pepper of our format, if you
like.
3073 I don't anticipate that
our music from the fifties would be more than 5 percent of our weekly
playlist.
3074 THE CHAIRPERSON: In your sample playlist you didn't have
any music from the fifties. That is
why I am asking the question.
3075 The presence of
eighties music, despite your description, that music will
be played.
3076 You also mentioned in
your oral presentation that you will be playing music from the
eighties.
3077 MR. SIEMENS: Again, a very small
amount.
3078 If you look at our
two‑day list, you will see some stuff from the very early eighties that we feel
fits the format quite well.
3079 I see "Bette Davis
Eyes" from Kim Carnes, which is certainly the feel and the flavour of what we
are talking about.
3080 There is also some
Canadian music from David Foster and a few people like that from the eighties
that we feel would fit.
3081 THE CHAIRPERSON: In the area of Canadian content, you
have said that a minimum of 25 percent of your Canadian musical selections will
be devoted to new Canadian music.
You define new Canadian music as being in the last five
years.
3082 Will this be the extent
of the contemporary music on your station, or will you also draw from recent
non‑Canadian music selections?
3083 MR. SIEMENS: We found that there is an exciting and
growing list of artists that are recording music that is format compatible. We could identify the Canadian ones, if
you like. It is a growing list, and
we have been a part of establishing that list with our station in
Vancouver.
3084 But, yes, there are
also artists like Carly Simon, of course Rod Stewart is very famous for his last
four albums, Linda Ronstadt, and a growing list of contemporary artists who are
not Canadian who are recording this type of music, and they, too, will help to
flavour our radio station.
3085 THE CHAIRPERSON: Given your proposed format, and your
reliance on it, as set out in your sample playlist, what challenges do you
envision in complying with the condition of licence to broadcast a maximum
weekly hit level of 49 percent?
3086 MR. SIEMENS: That is a very good question, Mr.
Chairman, because it is a challenge.
3087 The list that we
supplied does fit hit/non‑hit compliance, but we found that to be a good mental
exercise, and I think it was a good exercise to make us very aware of the
challenges we will have.
3088 But that is also an
opportunity to play some new Canadian music from, what is now, since we wrote
the application, the last six years ‑‑ from 2000 to today ‑‑ with all
of the artists that have been mentioned by some of the other applicants, which
include Armi Grano, Angela Kelman, Michael Buble, Tammy Weiss, Denzel
Sinclaire ‑‑ the list goes on and on.
3089 It is an opportunity
for us to play that new Canadian music, and some of the Rod Stewart that we
talked about a moment ago. That way
we can make up our non‑hit component.
3090 There are also a fair
amount of albums from the sixties and seventies. One of the best‑selling albums of all
time, Carole King's "Tapestry", only has two or three hits on it, and yet every
person in this room, I am sure, could sing along with every track on that
album.
3091 So you have an
opportunity with albums like that, and there others ‑‑ Fleetwood Mac's
"Rumours", some early Beatles stuff that is very soft and fits the format. It is very popular, everyone knows it,
but it's not a hit.
3092 So that will help make
up our non‑hit component as well.
3093 THE CHAIRPERSON: I know that you are already broadcasting
this format on your AM station in Vancouver, where you don't have the challenge
of the hit to non‑hit ratio.
3094 What kind of mechanism
are you contemplating putting in place in Calgary to make sure that you will not
exceed the maximum level of 49 percent?
3095 MR. SIEMENS: I would like to make one point, Mr.
Chairman. Certainly there are
similarities between 600 AM and what we are proposing here in Calgary on SILK
FM, but, in reality, 600 AM was launched as an adult standards radio station,
and while we are in the process of turning the format slightly, it still is an
adult standards radio station. It
is distinctly older and different from what we are talking about with the new
SILK FM.
3096 If I might comment,
what Vancouver has taught us is how to deal with, develop and create a mature
and older audience.
3097 It has also allowed us
to be very familiar with and to assist in the development of Canadian
talent.
3098 600 AM was the very
first station in Canada to play Michael Buble. If he were here, he would tell you that
very thing. We broke his career,
and he has thanked us any number of times, any number of ways for the increased
awareness that we made of his music.
The same is true of a bunch of other artists, as
well.
3099 This list of Canadian
artists is growing, and I think that 600 AM has been a very big part of
that. So, for that, we are
grateful.
3100 With regard to
monitoring the hit/non‑hit ratio, that is a matter of coding. When the music is input into the
computer system, the music director knows what was a hit, what wasn't a hit, and
he has but to program the computer to say that we will have no more than 49
percent hits, and we will stick with that.
3101 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will now move to local programming
and spoken word.
3102 Your programming in
this area is reflective of programs targeted to a more mature audience. Given the particular interests of these
listeners, what role will spoken word programming play?
3103 MR. SIEMENS: As I said just a moment ago ‑‑ and
I will ask Jasmin Doobay to comment in a moment ‑‑ while the station in
Vancouver is distinctly different from this, it has taught us what is important
to a more mature audience, what type of spoken word elements they enjoy and what
is important to them.
3104 That has had a definite
impact on the type of spoken word programming we have put
forward.
3105 MS DOOBAY: To go into a little more detail on our
spoken word, we understand that this demographic needs to know about health
issues, as we are getting older.
3106 They have children, of
course, and they need to worry about their health issues, but there is also an
older generation of parents which is also dealing with health
issues.
3107 Money, of course, is
very important to this age demographic.
Is the mortgage rate going up?
Am I going to be in trouble financially?
3108 We want to know about
our homes. This is a very hot
market for people moving in, and growing.
Am I going to buy? Am I
going to sell?
3109 We want to know about
gardening, how to take care of our homes, and we want to make sure they are
beautiful.
3110 We love arts and
culture as we are heading into this age, as well. There is perhaps a little more
disposable income, and, of course, a bit more time on our hands, as our children
are older and moving out. So we can
take advantage of what this city has to offer, and there is a lot of arts and
culture here.
3111 Plus theatre and travel
and food, as well. All of those are
very important to our demographic, and I think we very specifically target that
with our spoken word.
3112 News is also very
beneficial and very important to this age group. We have made a commitment to run news
full days, seven days a week, and have a very substantial newsroom that can
cover all of the arts and news components.
3113 We have an "In Touch"
feature, which is a 30‑minute news magazine that will run daily. If we were to take a look at what is
happening in the world today, the top news story right now is that two Canadians
have been killed in Mexico. How do
we bring that back to Calgary? We
are about three weeks away from spring break, and there are a lot of people
heading down to Mexico, wondering if they are going to be
safe.
3114 I love the immediacy of
radio. We could, in that half‑hour
news magazine program, get that information to air, and perhaps calm a lot of
people down who are heading away for the holidays.
3115 What we do with the "In
Touch" news magazine, Monday through Friday, will culminate in the best of news
stories being put together in a Sunday magazine format, which will be one‑hour
long, again highlighting the best of what Calgarians really want to know about
that happened in the week in Calgary, and what is pertinent to their
lives.
3116 We also get to focus on
arts and stuff, billboarding what is happening with 90‑second features, and
focusing on interviews with directors, with performers, getting a real feel for
what is happening out in the arts community, and perhaps creating more
excitement and developing more of an audience for arts and theatre and culture
in this community. It could help
gather a greater audience from this particular market that isn't currently being
marketed to.
3117 "On the Street" will
focus on what is happening and when and where they should be
going.
3118 We have a travel diary,
of course. As has been mentioned,
we are heading into spring break and people will want to go
away.
3119 "Flavours of
Calgary" ‑‑ wow, there is so much of an ethnic mix in this community. I love eating here. It is just
amazing.
3120 As I mentioned,
gardening, home improvement, art focus, and money focus, as
well.
3121 MR. ARNISH: Mr. Chairman, if I could add to
that ‑‑
3122 THE CHAIRPERSON: You can add, but I think you have
already covered everything.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
3123 I was saying to myself,
when you ask the question, you should be ready to have more than a
preamble.
3124 MR. ARNISH: I will let you in on a little
secret. We are in front of Jimmy
Pattison four times a year, and we have to be well prepared for those
meetings.
3125 There is a quick point
that I want to add to the discussion.
When we did our market research here in Calgary, the hole was clear for
this 45 to 54‑year‑old audience ‑‑ for a radio station to come into the
marketplace to fill the void.
3126 We took that
information ‑‑ and it stated in the information that we received from John
Yerxa Research that fully 21 percent of the adults polled in the demographic
that we are after stated that an FM radio station that made a mix of soft vocals
from the sixties and seventies, with a bit of a blend from the fifties, would be
the station they would listen to the most, while an impressive 32 percent of the
people in the same demographic stated that an FM station playing that type of
music would in fact be their second choice.
3127 The reason I put that
on the record this morning is that we then took that information and we looked
at the spoken word and said: Okay,
what are the spoken word components that are going to work well and complement
our music format that is going to work with this audience of 45 to 54 years of
age.
3128 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank
you.
3129 You indicated that you
will be devoting 14 hours and 30 minutes per week to spoken word programming,
which is broken down into news, current affairs and ‑‑ we have just
reviewed what it will be about.
3130 What about the
non‑scripted contents, such as announcer talk and banter?
3131 Could you confirm to us
what your estimated weekly total amount of spoken word programming over and
above that 14 hours and 30 minutes will be?
3132 MS DOOBAY: Yes. We have a commitment to five hours and
13 minutes of news per week. That
does not include interstitial or surveillance information
whatsoever.
3133 Our total of the 14
hours and 30 minutes is approximately 11.5 percent of the broadcast week. When we add in what we consider to be a
very low three minutes per hour of interstitial and surveillance information, we
add an additional 6 hours of information packaging, news and spoken word, with
news people being included as providing part of that
information.
3134 THE CHAIRPERSON: In reading the deficiency materials and
a reply that you sent, particularly regarding Question No. 4, I noticed that you
said that the Pattison Broadcasting Group has vast experience in open line, and
I know that you are planning to have an open line program. To that end, you have developed
guidelines.
3135 Have these guidelines
been filed with the Commission?
3136 MR. SIEMENS: No, Mr. Chairman.
3137 THE CHAIRPERSON: If not, could you provide us with those
guidelines?
3138 MR. SIEMENS: Absolutely. When would you like
them?
3139 THE CHAIRPERSON: When could we expect to receive
them?
3140 MR. ARNISH: The middle of next week, as soon as we
get back home.
3141 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right. That will be fine. Thank you. We will take that as a
commitment.
3142 Included in your
programming plans is a reference to some non‑locally produced syndicated music
programming. Could you tell us the
weekly level of station‑produced programming that would be broadcast at your
proposed FM station?
3143 MR. SIEMENS: Could I ask you to rephrase the
question?
3144 THE CHAIRPERSON: When we read your application, we
noticed that there was a reference to syndicated programming. I am not asking you how much of it is
syndicated programming, but how much is local content.
3145 MR. SIEMENS: In our broadcast schedule, which was
filed as part of our application, the only program that I would identify as
syndicated is "The Sounds of Sinatra", which runs for two hours on Sunday
evening. Everything else is
local.
3146 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you are not planning to have a
programming exchange with your Vancouver station?
3147 MR. SIEMENS: There is a program that we do in
Vancouver, the "Fred and Jerry's Home Improvement" show, which airs on Saturday
mornings, eight o'clock in Vancouver, and it would be nine o'clock in the
morning here. That is the only
program we would bring from Vancouver, which would be via
satellite.
3148 THE CHAIRPERSON: That would be live out of
Vancouver.
3149 MR. SIEMENS: Yes.
3150 THE CHAIRPERSON: In your application you have projected
your total programming expenses to be $1,034,000 in Year 1, increasing to
$1,235,000 in Year 7.
3151 How much of that money
is projected to be for your proposed spoken word
programming?
3152 MS DOOBAY: I'm sorry, could you repeat the
question?
3153 THE CHAIRPERSON: In your application ‑‑ let me start
with this. The answer will be
sufficient if we use Year 1.
3154 You have projected
$1,034,000 in programming expenses.
My question is, how much of that money is projected to be for your
proposed spoken word programming?
3155 MR. SIEMENS: I don't know that we have broken down
the budget in the manner that you are speaking to, but the spoken word
programming that we are going to undertake, such as the daily public affairs
program "In Touch" ‑‑ current events program is perhaps a better way to
describe it. That will be produced
by our newsroom, so that would be part of the budget.
3156 The other spoken word
programming, "Gardening with Harrington Telford", would not have much of a
budget. We haven't come to
negotiations with Mr. Telford yet, but I don't imagine that would be an
expensive item.
3157 I just don't know that
the spoken word programming will impact our budget
directly.
3158 THE CHAIRPERSON: How much of that would be for staff
producing this programming?
3159 Obviously, you haven't
done the breakdown, so you won't know how much will be staff versus programming
that will be contracted out, or whatever.
3160 MS DOOBAY: I know that, as far as staff in the
newsroom goes, we are committed to four and a half staff people, and that will
cover a large component of our spoken word production, the way that we have
broken down the week and who is responsible for what.
3161 THE CHAIRPERSON: How many programming staff have you
envisioned?
3162 MR. SIEMENS: Mr. Chairman, the programming staff
consists of five employees in the newsroom: a news director and morning reader is
one person, two full‑time news persons, a full‑time arts co‑ordinator, and a
part‑time weekend person.
3163 The programming staff
would be a program director, two morning show hosts, two full‑time announcers,
three part‑time announcers, two writers and one
producer.
3164 THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you planning to have any
voice‑tracking periods, or will it all be live‑to‑air, except for the syndicated
hour and the programming coming from Vancouver?
3165 MR. SIEMENS: We are committed ‑‑ and I believe
that we referred to this in our supplementary brief ‑‑ that we will not
voice‑track during the normal broadcast week.
3166 THE CHAIRPERSON: How does that compare with your other
Alberta radio stations?
3167 MR. ARNISH: We pride ourselves in the Pattison
Broadcast Group to try and have as many hours of local programming as we can
possibly achieve through our business plans. That is not to say, in some of our
smaller markets, that we don't do voice‑tracking.
3168 Let me say to you, Mr.
Chairman, that one of the things we really pride ourselves on in our group is
the independence of the various radio stations in the markets that we are
licensed to serve.
3169 We certainly give full
autonomy. We have our policies,
like every other company, but we give full autonomy to the management teams of
our various radio divisions or television stations to run their plants properly
and within all of the configurations and confines of the licence, and the
marketplace as well.
3170 The one thing that we
have not done is gotten into a networking of voice‑tracking various radio
stations.
3171 In response to your
question about what do we do in Alberta, if we were granted a licence here in
Calgary, certainly the station in Calgary, SILK FM, would have the most hours of
live local programming per day, seven days a week.
3172 Having said that, in
stations in Red Deer and Medicine Hat, for example, we certainly air programming
live into the evening, until about ten o'clock at night, in some cases, as
well. And certainly live
programming on the weekend, as well, throughout the day.
3173 So we do a lot of live
local programming. We try not to
use voice‑tracking, unless there is an absolute necessity to do
it.
3174 THE CHAIRPERSON: We know that you already have 10 radio
stations in Alberta, and 1 television station. Obviously, you have the potential of 11
newsrooms in all of those locations.
3175 Are you contemplating
synergies between those newsrooms and the one you would have in
Calgary?
3176 MR. ARNISH: Yes.
3177 From our smallest
stations in Drayton Valley and Rocky Mountain House, to all of the other
stations that we currently have licensed in Alberta, and to perhaps having a new
station in Calgary, we have certainly talked about this, how we could have
synergies between all of the stations.
3178 I would ask Jasmin
Doobay to give you her overview of that and how it would
work.
3179 We are very proud of
what we propose to do.
3180 MS DOOBAY: We have an opportunity in western Canada
to allow our voice to be heard more clearly across the country through the
information that is produced by the Pattison Broadcast stations from our news
departments.
3181 We have 11 radio
stations and 1 TV station in B.C., and 9 radio stations and 1 TV station in
Alberta, and I have had an opportunity to talk to the media market stations in
Red Deer, Grand Prairie, Lethbridge and Medicine Hat, to ask how much they are
currently sharing information, and whether there was an interest in being
granted a Calgary licence.
3182 To give you a bit of a
breakdown of how our newsroom producers ‑‑ there are little newsrooms all
around the world, and we will do an interview, if there is a crisis
situation ‑‑ perhaps a five‑minute interview, which would create three news
stories.
3183 We can share that
information across the country, but it depends on the editor on the other side
whether it is picked up.
3184 Broadcast News,
particularly on a weekend ‑‑ we don't even have a Vancouver voice in
British Columbia any more, and we have lost our core Corus newswire service as
well. So the only way that we can
share is by e‑mail.
3185 Fortunately, we have
this fabulous technology now to be able to e‑mail MP3s of audio and scripted
stories and share between the stations, and also get
clarification.
3186 From my experience in
British Columbia ‑‑ you probably are familiar with the Okanagan Mountain
Park fire. We had 234 homes burned
out, and that story went internationally.
Our little newsroom of five people in Kelowna was inundated with people
wanting information, and we were able to clarify, to share, and to get that
information out very quickly to our stations within the Pattison Group, and of
course nationally as well.
3187 We are excited about
the possibility of sharing information.
We use the term "networking", not technologically, but networking as in
we all know each other and we all want to build those
relationships.
3188 So rather than having
to send our story back to Toronto on a weekend, for example, when there are only
10 stories on their news summary, which are very eastern focused, we have an
opportunity to create a western‑focused voice here, and we are really excited
about that.
3189 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will now move to your CTD
commitment.
3190 First, I would like to
discuss with you your proposal to fund $3.5 million to Save the Music
Foundation.
3191 As described in your
application, in addition to the purchase of instruments, funds may also be
directed to mentoring programs for music educators, mentoring programs for
students with established Canadian musicians, creating opportunities for
students to travel to music events and competitions, bursaries and scholarships
for music programs.
3192 Does the music
foundation already exist, or will it be a totally new
initiative?
3193 MR. ARNISH: Thank you very much for that
question.
3194 We are broadcasters, so
we are always excited each and every day.
You talk to a lot of people who say, "Oh, I have to go to work today,"
but, with broadcasting, every day is the same, but every day is different,
because we are in the broadcasting industry and it is entertainment. We have fun and we do lots of great
things.
3195 The reason I prefaced
my remarks in response to your question, Mr. Chairman, is because the Save the
Music Foundation is, in our opinion, a wonderful new initiative for the youth of
Canada on a going forward basis.
3196 It is funny how seeds
of time are planted and seeds of ideas are planted when you look at new
initiatives, particularly the one we are talking about
today.
3197 When we were looking at
putting our Calgary application together, well over a year ago, amongst the team
that is before you this morning, we were trying to come up with a new idea. There have been lots of great ideas over
the years, some of them have worked, some of them
haven't.
3198 I am a tuba player,
believe it or not. I have played in
a world‑renowned band out of Kamloops called "The Kamloops Rube Band", not
"Rude" band, and we have played all over the world.
3199 I started music in high
school back in the sixties as a tuba player. I wanted to be a singer, but I am not
like the young fellows over here, "Synergy".
3200 My music teacher said,
"You can't even play the trumpet, so I am going to put you on the
tuba."
3201 So I have been a tuba
player all my life, and I am proud of it.
It's the backbone of the band.
3202 One day, last February
or March, I was talking to Mr. Weafer, and I said, "How is my tuba buddy
doing?"
3203 He has two sons that go
to school in North Vancouver, one is a saxophone player and one is a tuba
player.
3204 He said, "They are
doing great," and one thing led to another, and he said, "Rick, you can't
believe the program of music, frankly, that is put on at the high school that
our sons go to," and where "Synergy" comes from as
well.
3205 I said, "Tell me about
it," so he did. He was saying that
the trouble with all of these music programs is the fact that there is funding
from provincial governments for certain arts and music programs in schools, but
there is not enough of it.
3206 We have described some
of the scenarios that parents have to go through, and teachers, in raising
money.
3207 The long and the short
of it is, we started talking about this amongst ourselves, and we got our team
involved, and we said, "Maybe there is a great opportunity for us, on a going
forward basis as the Pattison Broadcast Group, to come up with this great brand
new initiative for the youth of Canada."
3208 In this particular case
right now, we are talking about students in the provinces of Alberta and British
Columbia.
3209 So the seed was sown
through that discussion, and we have moved forward in bringing to you the Save
the Music initiative.
3210 I will now turn it over
to Jerry Seimens to talk more about it and to give you more finite
detail.
3211 MR. SIEMENS: It is interesting how, when you start on
a project ‑‑ and it has been 15 or 16 months ‑‑ you start with an
idea, and then, after a few days of living with it, you say, "That is a pretty
good idea," and here we are, a year and a half later, and it has become a
passion.
3212 I believe so strongly
in the Save the Music Foundation.
If we really want to develop Canadian talent ‑‑ if we really want to
develop Canadian talent ‑‑ we have to start with the kids. That is where the future stars are going
to come from.
3213 The role of the Save
the Music Foundation is not to take the place of government. It is government's job to supply
education in the schools. The Save
the Music Foundation will enhance what government is already doing, because the
funds only go so far.
3214 We heard from these
young lads a moment ago, "Synergy".
Obviously they have talent.
3215 I am going to ask Frank
Lee to comment on this in a moment, because he knows these boys very well, and
he knows the music education system really well.
3216 "Synergy" was asked to
represent Canada twice internationally, once in Japan and once in Belgium. Neither time could they go because there
was no money. The families can only
raise so much.
3217 When you think about
that sort of thing and what would the Save the Music Foundation do, that is the
sort of thing we are talking about ‑‑ recognizing the cream of the crop,
the best of the best, and saying, "What can we do to get these young people to
the next level of performance."
3218 I think the analogy was
made earlier that if they were hockey players, they would go into the western
hockey league, and they would either make it or they
wouldn't.
3219 That is why we think
this is important.
3220 Even if they don't go
on to become professional musicians, the fact is that music students make better
citizens, and that has been documented over and over.
3221 Frank, maybe you could
take a moment and talk about what additional funding might mean to groups like
"Synergy" and other jazz and small bands that you work
with.
3222 MR. LEE: Like Jerry said, there are 12 performing
groups at the school, and they have been offered opportunities to travel abroad
and compete and perform at the international
level.
3223 Unfortunately, we had
to pass on some of those opportunities due to a lack of funds. Most recently was the Belgium trip last
year, the Europe contest.
3224 This past year we
actually accepted an invitation to an international festival in Powell
River. We were lucky enough that it
was in our backyard and we could go to it.
3225 These students are
constantly given opportunities to grow and develop, and to be inspired. I remember, when this program started
seven years ago ‑‑ it was through the Canadian Rocky Mountain Festival that
this program received that inspiration, that development, and that mentorship,
not only for the students, but for myself as well.
3226 It is really important
that these students see what their peers are doing at their age level, as well
as professionals, so that they have something to strive
for.
3227 These funds would be
instrumental in helping in the development of Canadian youth
talent.
3228 THE CHAIRPERSON: Has the foundation been
created?
3229 MR. ARNISH: We are working on that right now, as we
speak. We are in the process of
forming a society, and we are going through all of the necessary legal work to
do that as well.
3230 The foundation, at the
end of the day, will have a board of directors.
3231 We are committed to
this. I am sure you can feel the
passion in my voice, and in Jerry's, as well as our team. This is not a commitment just for the
short or long term, and I would even say seven years. We want to commit to this, as a
broadcast group, into infinity, really.
3232 We have an application
before you currently for the acquisition of Island Radio. We have taken some of the funds related
to that acquisition and have put them toward the Save the Music
Foundation.
3233 In reality, it is
already happening. It has started.
We just want to ‑‑ "Here, take this to the next big
level."
3234 That is why, through
Mr. Lee's association with the Rocky Mountain Music Festival, we brought them on
board and got into a full discussion with them to say, "Okay, we have this
wonderful idea, and we want to put a significant amount of money toward it. What can we do with the money to ensure
that it goes where we want it to go."
3235 Jerry, I would ask you
to comment on that.
3236 MR. SIEMENS: First of all, our relationship with the
Rocky Mountain Music Festival is very healthy. The Pattison Broadcast Group is the
title sponsor of the festival this year, and Mr. Connell will be here to speak
to you later in the week.
3237 The fundamental thing
about the Save the Music Foundation is that it is mentoring, it is covering
travel costs, it is providing competition at a very keen level for our young
people, so that they can see where they are at in their development compared to
other people in other parts of the two western provinces, and hopefully beyond,
as the company grows.
3238 THE CHAIRPERSON: What you are telling me is that this is
a new initiative, which you will be continuing over the years. You will continue to invest
while the company is growing.
3239 MR. ARNISH: Absolutely.
3240 As I said earlier, we
are looking at this beyond seven years, because we are in the business of
broadcasting for the long haul.
3241 For example, in our
application that was filed with the Commission regarding Grand Prairie, we put
significant funds into the Save the Music Foundation there, as well, and we are
looking for other opportunities to grow our company right across
Canada.
3242 With that, if we are
fortunate enough to receive licences or acquire other properties, we will
definitely direct a lot of money toward this new
initiative.
3243 THE CHAIRPERSON: You just said that you are on the verge
of creating the foundation, and that you will have a board of directors. Will the members of the board of
directors be independent from the Pattison Group?
3244 MR. ARNISH: We are really early into that. The majority of the board members would
be independent.
3245 We have talked to Mr.
Connell about that, through the Rocky Mountain Music Festival
Society.
3246 Some of the members of
the board would be from the Pattison Broadcast Group, as well, so that we have
an understanding of where the money will be directed and
spent.
3247 But the society board
would be the ones that would be charged with making sure the funds are allocated
accordingly.
3248 THE CHAIRPERSON: Have you, in your own mind, already
established a breakdown of how that half a million dollars a year will be
directed?
3249 MR. ARNISH: We haven't. We have talked about it. It is in the early stages in discussions
with people like Mr. Connell.
3250 We haven't decided yet
where that is going to go, but I think you gather, Mr. Chairman, from our
discussions about it this morning, that it will go to helping the best of the
best get the next step or leg up to become better, and perhaps even become a
professional musician, or a professional group, whatever the case may
be.
3251 THE CHAIRPERSON: Will any of the money that you will be
directing to the foundation be for the administration of the foundation, or will
all the money that you direct to the foundation go to the various
programs?
3252 MR. SIEMENS: We have identified in our application a
Canadian talent co‑ordinator, and that person's salary would come out of the
Save the Music Foundation.
3253 Other than that, there
are no other administrative costs tied to it.
3254 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, in a way, he will be the manager of
the foundation?
3255 MR. SIEMENS: This person will be a very busy person,
when they start to liaise with about 3,000 music educators across B.C. and
Alberta, plus the other Canadian talent initiatives that we have identified in
our application.
3256 I should mention, too,
because I think it is an important point, the number of letters that we got from
music educators here in the City of Calgary and throughout Alberta and B.C. We were surprised how far away some of
them came from.
3257 But once word got out
that we were considering this, the music educators certainly jumped to the
point.
3258 THE CHAIRPERSON: He may find that half a million dollars
is not a big amount.
3259 MR. SIEMENS: When Mr. Connell gets here later this
week, he will tell you that he has already had people asking him how they can be
a part of this.
3260 So there is certainly
excitement growing throughout the two western provinces.
3261 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
3262 Obviously, as you said,
the money will be directed to students in both Alberta and
B.C.
3263 Have you established a
split between Alberta and B.C.?
3264 MR. SIEMENS: No. I think the way we envision it working
is that students or educators who wish to take advantage of the foundation will
make a written application. Those
applications will be reviewed by the board of directors, and the money will be
allocated to what the board decides is the right thing to do. All of it will be going to Canadian
Talent Development, but, no, there has been no split set out as
such.
3265 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now we will move to the "Best of the
West" competition.
3266 Could you tell us more
about the annual funding for this project?
3267 MR. SIEMENS: Yes. Thank you for the
question.
3268 The "Best of the West"
will begin with regional competitions in northern, central and southern Alberta,
and also northern, central and southern British Columbia. We envision one‑day competitions in
those regions where groups, bands, a cappella choirs, whatever, will have made
application to the Save the Music Foundation, and they will be invited to
compete.
3269 We estimate that the
cost of staging a one‑day competition will be in the range of about $15,000, by
the time we pay for judges and renting the site and the sound technicians and
everything else.
3270 We estimate that the
total budget for the "Best of the West", from start to finish, will be about
$100,000 annually.
3271 THE CHAIRPERSON: You also say that a project manager will
be retained to oversee the implementation of "Best of the West". I suppose it would be the same CTD
co‑ordinator who will be looking after the Foundation?
3272 MR. SIEMENS: That is correct.
3273 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is there an associated annual salary for
this manager?
3274 If so, where is it
earmarked in your CTD budget?
3275 MR. SIEMENS: The figure that we mentioned in the
supplementary brief is $80,000, and that would be part of the half a million
dollars annually.
3276 THE CHAIRPERSON: That will go to the
foundation.
3277 MR. SIEMENS: The half a million dollars goes to that
foundation and, of that, $80,000 will go to the
co‑ordinator.
3278 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could you describe the duties and the
responsibilities that the manager will have?
3279 MR. SIEMENS: Surely. That person will be responsible, as we
mentioned a few minutes ago, for liaising with music educators throughout
Alberta and B.C.
3280 The person will be
responsible for co‑ordinating the "Best of the West" competitions, and also they
will have the responsibility of co‑ordinating the SILK Series, and the SILK
Series ‑ Road Version.
3281 He is going to be a
busy person.
3282 THE CHAIRPERSON: Will he have other duties at the radio
station?
3283 MR. SIEMENS: No.
3284 THE CHAIRPERSON: Obviously, he will be managing almost
all of your CTD programming.
3285 MR. SIEMENS: He or she will certainly be influential
in the CTD programming, but, again, we will have the board of directors for the
Save the Music Foundation, which will have the final say.
3286 MR. ARNISH: Mr. Chairman, if I could
interrupt ‑‑ and I apologize ‑‑ one of our panel members has taken ill
this afternoon, and I was wondering if we could take a moment to allow Mr. Davis
to excuse himself from the room.
3287 MR. DAVIS: I have had a sinus infection for two
days. As my father says, I am
enjoying poor health.
3288 Rick, it has
passed. I think the medication is
starting to work, so I will be fine.
3289 MR. ARNISH: Mr. Davis will be fine. I am sorry for the
interruption.
3290 MR. DAVIS: I will be fine.
3291 THE CHAIRPERSON: We could break now and resume after
lunch, or we could continue.
3292 You would prefer that
we continue?
3293 MR. ARNISH: If that is okay by you,
sure.
3294 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's fine.
3295 I am asking you,
because I have already answered myself.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
3296 We will now look at
your economic application and your financials.
3297 In section 4.4 of your
application, where you discuss assumptions applied to financial projections, you
state that revenues have been projected by creating an index of revenue
performance against the station's share of hours tuned.
3298 Would you please
provide us with an example of how you created this index, and how it is used in
deriving projected revenues from projected
audience?
3299 MR. ARNISH: I will start, and then I will have Mr.
Davis and Ms McKechnie answer that question.
3300 When we looked at the
market in Calgary after we had done our research, we certainly kept in mind what
was going on in the marketplace, as well, and what the growth has been over the
last number of years, and what the projected growth will be through 2012, for
example, where the market is estimated to be in the 100 million
range.
3301 When we are looking at
the estimates of revenue and the expense side of the business, as well, our
group certainly, for many, many, many years, has been realistic and somewhat
conservative about business plans.
3302 Dealing with Mr.
Pattison and the Pattison Group, we certainly have opportunities to review our
business plans four times a year.
3303 I am a person who
always believes that if you take care of the pennies, the dollar will take care
of itself.
3304 When we looked at
everything related to our application in Calgary, we wanted to be
realistic. We knew that we would be
coming into the marketplace with a very unique format, as well as the fact that
we would be a standalone station in the market against other major
competitors.
3305 We looked at our
overall picture with that thought in mind.
3306 With that, I will turn
it over to Bruce.
3307 MR. DAVIS: Mr. Chairman, we want to go into some
detail now about how we arrived at our initial market share and how we see the
market share growing toward maturity of the market.
3308 To establish this, we
used John Yerxa Research, and I would ask John to cover how we arrived at the
initial shares.
3309 MR. YERXA: In a nutshell, what we did was, my
research director took the core percentages within each of the various music
groups that made up the format and, upon combining these, was able to calculate
the primary and secondary impact, repatriation, things of that
nature.
3310 In a nutshell, we
presented a maximum potential share, once this station develops over a period of
time, of around 9.
3311 Now, I can provide you
with the math if you wish, but we gave the 9 share as a final end result, if
everything is done well over a period of time.
3312 I will let you take it
from there.
3313 MS McKECHNIE: Mr. Chairman, working that logic or
methodology backward from the 9 share, we looked at our inaugural year, which is
without BBM ratings, without history with the listeners, and with it being a
standalone, coming into an established market.
3314 We, therefore, reduced
that potential 9 share by about two‑thirds, to start it at 3, resulting in a 9
share over our term of licence.
3315 MR. DAVIS: If I could continue with that thought,
now that we have established a 3 share going in, we know that the market is
planned between a $55 and $60 cost per point, which, doing the math, would yield
about a $28 to $30 unit rate per 30.
3316 We know going in that
we can realistically sell about 50 percent of the available inventory at that
unit rate, and that brings us into about $1.4 million or $1.5 million with those
calculations, which are pretty standard in radio.
3317 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank
you.
3318 You have characterized
your audience and financial projections in the early years of your projections
as being conservative in nature. In
fact, you are not projecting to generate a profit until Year
5.
3319 Can you explain why you
have chosen to adopt this approach, given the positive outlook of the Calgary
economy and the results of your demand study, which suggest an opportunity to
address the needs of an under‑served segment of the Calgary radio
audience?
3320 MR. ARNISH: I think I would echo what I said a few
moments ago. When we are looking at
business plans for the entire Jim Pattison Broadcast Group, as a group and as
individual stations and individual markets, we are realistic and conservative
with our approach to our financial well‑being.
3321 Again, coming into
Calgary, we have had some members of our panel work in the Calgary market. It would be our second major market
station, but it would be an independent station, and with the startup of that,
against some very formidable competitors in this marketplace ‑‑ and there
are some great broadcasters that live and work in Calgary ‑‑ we know that
our job is cut out for us to ensure, at the end of the day, that we have a
viable radio station that employs great staff, that we pay them well, and that
we serve the market as we have committed to at this hearing with the
Commission.
3322 With that, we decided
again ‑‑ and we do this all the time.
We are realistic and conservative about our business plans. We looked at the first three or four
years as being tough slugging, as we get the station up and running and get it
established, get market share, and then be able to go out into the advertising
market and be able to sell this product, which we feel very confident we will be
able to do.
3323 As you can see with our
projections leading up to Year 7, it gets much more positive in the last three
or four years of the seven‑year period.
And we feel very strong about our projections.
3324 THE CHAIRPERSON: Am I hearing from you that it is easier
to attend your quarterly meetings, saying, "We have done
better" ‑‑
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
3325 MR. ARNISH: Jimmy always says, "It's better to
overachieve than to underachieve."
3326 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am coming to my very last question,
and it has to do with the technical side of the
operation.
3327 In the event that the
frequency proposed as your first choice is not available, have you considered
the use of another frequency?
3328 MR. ARNISH: Mr. Chairman, we hadn't. When we dealt with our consulting
engineers, D.E.M. Allen, they came to us like other applicants in front of you
and said, "The frequency we are recommending for you for Calgary is this
format."
3329 We understand that
there are a couple of other frequencies available here. I don't know whether there is confusion
in the room about the frequencies or not, but Mr. Gord Henke of D.E.M. Allen is
here, and he is willing to come forward right now and talk about that, if you
wish.
3330 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.
3331 MR. ARNISH: Mr. Henke, would you come forward to
discuss this issue, please?
3332 THE CHAIRPERSON: For the record, obviously there are,
from what we have been able to gather, a few frequencies available in the
market. Some are better than
others. Some seem to have an
impairment. We have heard about
NavCan issues.
3333 For the record, could
you tell us what we should know?
3334 MR. HENKE: Thank you, Mr. Chair; and Rick, thank
you.
3335 I would like to go back
to give a bit of history of the application process and go through all of the
frequencies that are potentially available in this market.
3336 Through the application
process there were actually five frequencies identified as potential in the
Calgary market.
3337 Channel 212, which is
90.3, the Pattison application, has been identified. It is clear. It is capable of operating 100
kilowatts, non‑directional.
3338 The second frequency
which has been applied for is Channel 225, which is 92.9 Mhz. It is a Calgary allotment in the
Industry Canada Allotment Plan. It
is available at a full 100 kilowatts, non‑directional.
3339 The third frequency
that is available in this market ‑‑ and all of these three have passed
through Industry Canada in terms of:
They operate. We know
that.
3340 The third frequency is
Channel 262, which is 100.3. It is
identified by one of the other applicants in this hearing. It is available, again, at a full 100
kilowatts, but it requires a directional antenna pattern to provide protection
to a number of other stations in adjacent markets to
Calgary.
3341 There are two other
frequencies that were identified during the application process, which were
Channel 283, which is 104.5, and Channel 291‑B, which is
106.1.
3342 Both of those
frequencies, if you look at the frequencies themselves, disregarding a number of
other factors, work in the Calgary market, but both of them have been identified
by NavCanada as having potential problems with interference to aircraft
navigation systems.
3343 That doesn't mean they
can't be used, it only means that they have either limited power ‑‑ the
power has to be kept down below a certain limit ‑‑ or they are only
available for use at very specific antenna sites.
3344 So there are three
full‑power stations that could have frequencies in this market, and several
others that could possibly work at lower powers.
3345 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Henke. That clears the
situation.
3346 We needed that
information for the record. Staff
of the CRTC knew of the situation, but it had to be registered somewhere, and
that is why we have kept asking.
3347 Those who are coming
after you, they won't be asked the question, because we now have the
information.
3348 Thank you very much,
Mr. Henke.
3349 MR. HENKE: Thank you very
much.
3350 THE CHAIRPERSON: This will be my very last question,
before asking Helen Del Val if she has a question for you.
3351 If the Commission were
to grant more than one licence, which one of the other applicants would have a
negative effect on your business plan, and why?
3352 MR. ARNISH: I will have Jerry jump in on this, as
well.
3353 Because we are going
after an older demographic of 45 to 54‑year‑old adults in Calgary, and there is
a clear hole in the market for a station like ours, SILK FM, playing music of
the sixties and seventies, certainly the applicants that you heard yesterday,
and even this morning, could have an effect on us if we and they were also
granted a licence here in Calgary.
3354 We certainly know that
there is a hole for our format, for a higher‑end demographic, and there would be
less damage to us if the Commission decided to award an additional licence, or
perhaps three, if that was the case, to a format that would be perhaps modern
rock, or album‑oriented rock, or even a specialty licence.
3355 Jerry, would you like
to comment on that?
3356 MR. SIEMENS: Thank you, Rick. I don't know that I can add much, but if
there is to be more than one licence granted, I think it would probably make the
most sense to have one of those new applications approved being one that serves
a younger demographic and one that supports an older
demographic.
3357 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
3358 Madam Del
Val.
3359 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: You have probably anticipated
this question on your revenue projections.
3360 I know you start quite
low, but you are the highest, at 29 percent annual average growth. And I see that you are declining, which
is reasonable, but even by Years 6 and 7 you are projecting 22 percent and 25
percent, respectively.
3361 Would you care to
comment on whether that is realistic?
3362 MR. DAVIS: Sure, I would love to comment on
that.
3363 Remember, the research
that we did showed that the potential at maturity of the radio station would be
a 9 share. If you use all of the
math that we used, that would yield the numbers we say they are going to, given
that the Calgary market will grow to over 100 million in the next few years, and
the demographic that we are in is also one of the fastest growing
demographics.
3364 Does that answer your
question?
3365 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Yes.
3366 Do you think that the
other applicants are coming in too low on their revenue
projections?
3367 MR. DAVIS: I can't speak to their research. Again, we are talking about looking
toward the same demographic, but completely different formats and different
genres and different years that they are talking about in
music.
3368 We are separated that
way, so each of the applications is distinct. I wouldn't want to comment on how they
came to their numbers.
3369 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: I have one more question in
intervention.
3370 I don't know whether
you are aware of this one. This is
Intervention 445. They made a
comment on page 6 of their intervention on the Save the Music Foundation and how
the money could possibly be better spent on an already established outfit, such
as the CARAS MusicCan program.
3371 Do you have any comment
on that?
3372 MR. ARNISH: I guess in retort to them, in respect to
that organization, I guess FACTOR and Musicaction and the Starmaker Fund, which
is through the CAB, could have all commented on our Save the Music initiative as
well.
3373 I guess my response to
them, and others, is that, again, in our opinion, this is a wonderful, new,
great Canadian initiative that is directed solely toward our
youth.
3374 I would like Angela
Kelman to give her perspective on this as well.
3375 MS KELMAN: Thank you.
3376 Over the years I have
personally benefited with Farmer's Daughter and my own recording projects from
entities like FACTOR, CARAS, and the Starmaker Fund, for which I am grateful,
but they came when I was already an established
artist.
3377 The Save the Music
Foundation is about to give kids who have got what it takes to be in this
industry a leg up, to ensure that future recording artists make it. It gives them a leg up to get them
excited about it and continue.
3378 I have yet to see any
kind of program at the entry level, so to speak, even though these kids are
extremely talented, that would provide everything they need to get to the
places.
3379 CARAS and FACTOR are
wonderful, wonderful entities, but we need to start a little sooner to get these
kids to that level.
3380 Thank
you.
3381 MR. SIEMENS: I would echo what Angela has just
said. The associations you
mentioned, Commissioner Del Val, do good work. There is no question about that, but if
you are a 35‑year‑old Canadian artist, we are really not developing talent at
that point, we are enhancing a career.
3382 That's good. That's fine. But I come back to my earlier
comment. If we want to develop
Canadian talent ‑‑ and I think that is the objective ‑‑ we have to
start with the youth.
3383 MR. ARNISH: To tag on to the two comments here, I
might put on my Canadian unity hat. Yes, I am from western Canada, but I am a
proud Canadian, and I think for us to be able to fund youth groups, musicians,
artists, jazz bands, choirs ‑‑ you name it ‑‑ high school
bands ‑‑ to travel across this country ‑‑
3384 They are having
problems, as we all know. We are
all parents, grandparents; we have nieces and nephews who are in music programs
in schools across this country.
They are all having trouble getting funding to do just that, to travel to
events in Quebec, Ontario or the Maritimes.
3385 Hopefully, through this
foundation ‑‑ one of the cornerstones of the foundation will be to give
them money to be able to do that.
3386 I can't think of a
better thing for Canadian unity than having youth talking with youth ‑‑
exchanging ideas, getting to know each other, getting to know a perspective from
eastern Canada, central Canada, western Canada, and the north as
well.
3387 I think that our
foundation, this initiative, will be great for Canada and great for the youth of
our nation.
3388 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Thank
you.
3389 Those are my questions,
Mr. Chair.
3390 THE CHAIRPERSON: Your last question will be coming from
legal counsel.
3391 MS BENNETT: Thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
3392 I have one question,
which is related to the commitment you have made of $1.4 million for employment
equity initiatives.
3393 In your presentation
this morning you mentioned that it would be $700,000 for CWC's Radio Career
Accelerator Program, and $700,000 to the two other initiatives, being the
strategic alliance with the Alberta Métis Association and the Alberta College of
Art and Design, and funding for the program at SAIT.
3394 Could you comment on
the possibility of the Commission imposing that commitment as a condition of
licence?
3395 MR. ARNISH: If the Commission did so, we would
certainly accept that as a condition of licence.
3396 MS BENNETT: Thank you. That was my only
question.
3397 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Arnish and Mr. Siemens, before we
break, in your own words, could you, in no more than five minutes, give us the
reasons ‑‑
3398 I think you have
already given us a lot of reasons.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
3399 I am allowing you to
wrap up and tell us why the Commission should entertain your
application.
3400 MR. ARNISH: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I
will try to be brief.
3401 Why
Pattison?
3402 We believe that the
granting of a new FM station in Calgary, as we have proposed, will meet the
objectives of the Broadcasting Act, as well as contributing to the objectives
that the Commission outlined in its commercial radio policy of
1998.
3403 I have seven brief
points to make in this regard.
3404 First, the proposed
station will add a new and distinctive format to the Calgary radio market. The new SILK FM would correct a
demographic imbalance in the Calgary market by targeting the mature listener in
the 35 to 64‑year‑old and 45‑plus demographics.
3405 Further, we would
accomplish that goal without duplicating music currently being exposed on any
Calgary station.
3406 Second, the new SILK FM
would provide a platform for a wider range of Canadian artists whose music is
not being heard on Calgary radio.
Unique to the Calgary version of the soft vocals format will be the
emphasis on local and national artists singing the standards. Canadian artists such as Armi Grano,
Angela Kelman, Matt Dusk, Tammy Weiss, Robert Fine and others are among the many
Canadian acts that have recorded music compatible with this format. For the most part, these are selections
that are not receiving airplay anywhere else on the dial.
3407 Third, there will be a
comprehensive package of direct benefits that will total $7 million. This figure includes $5.6 million in
direct Canadian talent initiatives, $1.4 million in employment equity projects,
plus an additional $2.38 million in indirect expenditures, for a total benefits
package of $9,380,000.
3408 The Canadian talent
initiatives are well thought out and are designed to have an immediate and
positive effect in southern Alberta and throughout the provinces of Alberta and
British Columbia.
3409 They include $500,000
annually for the Pattison Broadcast Group's Save the Music
Foundation.
3410 The Applicant will also
establish the SILK Series and the SILK Series ‑ Road Version, which will be
of particular benefit to local southern Alberta musicians and recording
artists.
3411 Additionally, there are
third party endowments to the Calgary Philharmonic Orchestra and the Alberta
Recording Industry Association.
3412 Fourth, the new SILK FM
will provide a new emphasis on and exposure for the arts scene in Calgary. Our full‑time arts and culture editor
will provide coverage of the arts and cultural scene in Calgary, with news,
reviews, and other information on gallery openings, new theatre offerings, as
well as upcoming concerts.
3413 Fifth, the Pattison
Broadcast Group has proposed four employment equity initiatives that will
enhance career opportunities for members of all four designated groups. They include:
3414 $350,000 for the
continuation of the CWC Radio Career Accelerator Program for Women, which will
ensure the long‑term survival of this CWC program, which is currently out of
funding.
3415 $350,000 for the
development of a new Career Accelerator Program for members of the other
designated groups ‑‑ aboriginal persons, visual minorities, and persons
with disabilities.
3416 Additionally, we have
proposed $350,000 for a joint strategic alliance with the Alberta Métis
Association and the Alberta College of Arts and
Design.
3417 Plus, the new SILK FM
will commit $350,000 over the term of the licence for the development of the
Broadcast Leadership Bootcamp, in conjunction with the Southern Alberta
Institute of Technology.
3418 Employment equity
initiatives total $1.4 million.
3419 Sixth, the Calgary
market is a strong radio market.
The addition of SILK FM will have little impact on the existing FM
stations in the market. The diverse
nature of the format is such that it will not duplicate any FM station in the
market, and will have little impact on any one station.
3420 We expect that a
significant amount of tuning will come from increased listening by people who
cannot afford to find this kind of music on the Calgary
dial.
3421 Seventh, 11 of the 13
commercial licences in this market are controlled by eastern‑based
broadcasters. In our opinion, to
truly add a diverse point to the market is critical to a broadcast group based
in western Canada.
3422 For these reasons, we
submit that the Applicant which best meets the objectives of the Broadcasting
Act, and the Applicant which is most appropriate to a licence in Calgary, is the
Jim Pattison Broadcast Group.
3423 I really want to thank
our great young talent "Synergy" for appearing today in front of you here in
Calgary.
3424 We thank you, Mr.
Chairman, Commissioners, and Commission Staff, for allowing us the opportunity
to appear before you.
3425 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Arnish, and
thanks to your team.
3426 We will adjourn until
two o'clock, and we will start with the next application at that
time.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1255
/
Suspension à
1255
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1400
/
Reprise à
1400
3427 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.
3428 Madam
Secretary.
3429 MS BOULET: Thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
3430 We will now proceed to
Item 7 on the agenda, which is an application by Raman Sivia, on behalf of a
corporation to be incorporated as a co‑operative, for a licence to operate a
commercial specialty FM ethnic radio programming undertaking in
Calgary.
3431 The new station would
operate on Frequency 92.9 Mhz, Channel 225‑C1, with an effective radiated power
of 50,000 watts, non‑directional antenna, antenna height of 298.5
metres.
3432 Appearing for the
Applicant is Mr. Raman Sivia. Mr.
Sivia will introduce his colleagues, and he will then have 20 minutes for the
presentation.
PRESENTATION /
PRÉSENTATION
3433 MR. SIVIA: Mr. Chairman and Members of the
Commission, my name is Raman Sivia.
I am the Executive Vice President of the radio
station.
3434 Before we begin our
presentation, I would like to introduce our panel members.
3435 On my right is our
legal counsel, Mark Lewis, a partner in the firm of Lewis Birnberg Hanet,
LLP.
3436 To his right is
Baljinder S. Tamber, who will be CEO of this radio company. Mr. Tamber is CEO of Watan Media Group
and Radio, which is a multimedia company serving the ethnic
community.
3437 On the far right is Ms
Asmita, a broadcast and print journalist who has recently moved to Calgary from
India. She is fluent in five
languages, but today she will speak in English.
3438 If licensed, we expect
that Ms Asmita will be the news and current affairs host of the radio
station.
3439 To my immediate left is
Mr. Gurbhalinder Sandhu, who is the publisher and editor‑in‑chief of Des Pardes
Times, the newspaper which serves the South Asian community of
Calgary.
3440 Mr. Sandhu twice headed
the Canadian media delegation on government trade missions to India in 2003, on
which he accompanied the premier, the prime minister and the Team Canada mission
to India.
3441 In the same year, he
accompanied the premier of Alberta on a mission to India.
3442 Mr. Sandhu has
firsthand knowledge of the business community in Calgary and can speak to the
collaborative efforts which are proposed between the newspaper and the radio
station.
3443 To my far left is Ms
Manjot Sandhu, who is the co‑publisher, in charge of sales, for the Des Pardes
Times Business Directory. She will
provide comments concerning advertising opportunities for the new radio
station.
3444 Seated in the row
behind me is Andrew Ilnycky, who operates a natural gas, pipeline, and energy
consulting company located in Calgary.
He is a prominent community leader in the Urkranian community, and
appears with us today as a member of our proposed advisory
board.
3445 To his left ‑‑ I
guess that Mr. Harmeet Sidhu is not here yet, but he will be joining us
shortly. He operates an insurance
company. He is a prominent
community leader. He has agreed to
participate as an advisory board member of the radio
station.
3446 Through his business
activities in the community, he can provide the Commission with some insight
regarding immigration patterns from South Asia in this part of
Canada.
3447 Seated to Mr. Sidhu's
left is Mr. Harnarayan Singh, who is a local reporter for a local broadcaster in
Calgary, and a documentary film producer.
3448 Mr. Singh is active in
the Sikh community with local youth groups.
3449 If licensed, we would
expect that Mr. Singh would be a news reporter for the
station.
3450 Seated to the right of
Mr. Ilnycky will be Mr. Kim Ban. He
will be joining us shortly. He is
the publisher of Viet Nam Thoi Bao Calgary, an informative magazine which serves
the Vietnamese community.
3451 Mr. Kim will be the
host of programming for the Vietnamese community.
3452 To his right is seated
Ms Sen Hong, who is also associated with Viet Name Thoi Bao Calgary, who will
also speak to the growth of the community and advertisement
opportunities.
3453 We will now begin our
presentation. Baljinder Tamber will
clarify the company's goal and provide a greater understanding of what we hope
to accomplish with this FM station.
3454 MR. TAMBER: Mr. Chairman and Members of the
Commission, good afternoon. I have
been an active member of the community since immigrating from India in
1980. I lived in B.C. for six years
before moving to Toronto.
3455 This land has provided
me and my family with so many opportunities that I had to give back to the
community.
3456 Since I have been here,
I have made it my responsibility to get involved and to integrate with the
community. This has been my
personality and nature.
3457 Radio stations, such as
the one we have proposed, will help new immigrants to become aware of activities
and programs available to them, as well as providing them with
entertainment.
3458 My biggest achievement
would have to be starting Sikh Sports Club. This club started with 50 kids, and has
now grown to 800. It is a
tremendous accomplishment for our club.
3459 All of my initiatives
have had one thing in common: to
provide the ethnic community with information, knowledge, understanding and
possibilities so that they can become responsible members of the community in
which they reside.
3460 The application
provides a high level of service to the South Asian community and other ethnic
communities of Calgary.
3461 It is financially
prudent, and we have set realistic and achievable financial and service
goals.
3462 This community is ready
to receive local programming of relevance to their community, rather than SCMO
rebroadcasts originating on a radio station in the U.S.A.
3463 The high level of local
service that we proposed is possible due to initiatives with allied media. Let me
explain.
3464 In Toronto, we have
successfully operated an SCMO service to the Punjabi
community.
3465 We also provide
programming on a daily basis on CIUT‑FM to the Greater Toronto
Area.
3466 I host and market
advertisement for a program telecast nationally on the Vision TV
network.
3467 We also have the
ability to promote the new radio station on our TV telecasts, our print
publications and our web services.
3468 We are experienced
producers of open‑line programs, music programs, and have been dedicated to the
promotion of Canadian performers.
3469 As we currently work
with the Canadian broadcasting system, we are fully aware of and comply with the
CRTC regulations and broadcast standards.
3470 We are in the process
of launching a Category 2 service of VTV to the South Asian
community.
3471 Our company prints a
weekly newspaper for the Punjabi community in Toronto, as you will shortly
hear.
3472 We are affiliated with
Des Pardes Times in Calgary. We are
currently working extensively on the ground here in Calgary with concert and
entertainment promoters, advertisers and local businesses. It is all about
networking.
3473 Our company has
increasingly grown and we are always looking for interesting ways in which to
provide ethnic services.
3474 In April 2006 we will
launch a new entertainment magazine.
This magazine will be published in Canada and distributed here and in the
U.S.
3475 Additional staff and
support are being set up in India.
Editorial content will also be utilized for the proposed Calgary FM
station.
3476 Through our media
group, we have a track record in web publishing. We provide internet and web services
targeted to young South Asians in Canada, with a focus on entertainment and
information regarding campus events.
3477 We also do live
screening of community events on the web.
3478 Our web publishing
skills will be useful for the promotion of the new radio
station.
3479 We also have a long
distance resale company. This
provides the radio station with low‑cost transmission of news and sports, for
example, from India, England, the U.S.A. and other
countries.
3480 This will benefit our
program producers in obtaining spoken word
content.
3481 With all of these
business relationships, we have a well established network of news and
information sources here in Canada, in Alberta, and overseas, as well as sales
and promotional opportunities which have been put in place for the new Calgary
FM station.
3482 In Toronto, we operate
a successful SCMO service in what is probably the most competitive South Asian
market outside India. So we are
well aware of the market potential and the advertising base for a new radio
station to serve Calgary.
3483 We also understand the
economics of ethnic broadcasting.
3484 MR. SIVIA: We acknowledge that there is no
independent research study filed with our application. Given that ethnic radio in the community
is not currently rated by BBM, there is no base by which to determine the
existing audience. Surveying
communities that are not fluent in English poses a very large
barrier.
3485 We took another
approach because we are active in this community through other media
activities. With our outreach
towards ethnic communities, we were able to determine that there is market
demand for ethnic programming.
3486 We also analyzed the
programming schedules of local stations and determined the format
hole.
3487 We are working with
existing strategic production partners and media partners, who were able to
determine whether, one, ethnic‑owned businesses were prepared to advertise on a
new ethnic FM station, and two, whether existing advertisers would increase
their advertising budgets now spent with the ethnic print media in order to
advertise on a new radio station.
3488 We learned that the
answer to both questions was yes.
Although we did not have independent research, we had a grassroot
confirmation directly from the community.
3489 The Commission has
received several hundred letters from Calgary business owners who intend to
support the programming of the station.
3490 There is a third thing
that we want to highlight. We
broadcast to the ethnic community via SCMO specialty television, on the
internet, via airtime on conventional FM, and through print media in Toronto
across Canada.
3491 We are familiar with
the potential advertising revenue in South Asian and other ethnic
communities. Our advertising rates,
our inventory sell‑out rates, and our revenue forecasts are consistent with the
experience that we have had in very competitive markets.
3492 We have assumed that
you would ask us whether the revenue projections are logical, achievable and
sustainable in Calgary. We believe
that they are.
3493 We have partnered with
the other print media that serves the ethnic community.
3494 We are very small
compared to English‑language media companies, but we already play a major role
in serving the ethnic community across Canada.
3495 Our company motto has
always been to connect ethnic communities and provide them with a positive
outlet, a "voice in a distinct land".
3496 Looking at the market
of Calgary and the ethnic community breakdown, as well as other existing
services, we determined that programming can be provided in 14 languages,
targeting 10 different ethnic groups, representing the make‑up of the
under‑served Calgary community.
3497 Mr. Sandhu will provide
some insight concerning the advertising revenue of South Asian
programming.
3498 MR. SANDHU: I have worked with Raman Sivia and
Baljinder Tamber on a number of projects.
In fact, I had a newspaper in Toronto, but now focus on Alberta and
California. I foresaw more
opportunities to build a business in this province because of the rapid
expansion of South Asian communities across Alberta.
3499 We collaborate with a
number of resources, including foreign journalists, who contribute news articles
to each of our newspapers and TV and radio programs.
3500 As a journalist, I can
tell you that there is a lot happening in this community, and I think that a
collaboration between Des Pardes Times and the new radio station makes a great
deal of sense.
3501 We have reporters in
Calgary, Edmonton, and in the oil sands community of Fort
McMurray.
3502 Business coverage of
the oil industry is important to our community. Listeners will benefit from the radio
station's news and information coverage.
3503 Calgary is a dynamic
community. The biggest South Asian
music and entertainment stars have made Calgary a destination on their world
tours.
3504 We have promoted
Canadian musical events in Calgary many times. We are currently working in association
with the applicants and their new Category 2 digital channel VTV in the
promotion of concerts.
3505 There are many cultural
activities in this community, and a new radio station could play a major role in
the promotion and coverage of those events.
3506 MS SANDHU: Mr. Chairman and Members of the
Commission, I am the co‑publisher of Des Pardes Times business pages, and have
been involved in the sale of advertising in Calgary since the publication's
inception.
3507 Perhaps you can't
imagine this, but I am rather unique.
I am a woman from a traditional society selling advertising, but most of
the advertising buyers are men.
That, in itself, is a very big challenge.
3508 I was pleasantly
surprised when we launched our directory in Calgary that over 300 businesses
bought advertising within a three‑month period.
3509 Today, more than 400
businesses advertise to the South Asian community with us. Our advertising clients span many
different types of businesses and services, including medical
professionals.
3510 Our clients from our
first edition continue to purchase ads.
3511 From our discussions
with our advertisers, I know that there is a large base who would commit to
advertising on the new station to reach their target audience on a daily
basis.
3512 MR. TAMBER: We now want to provide a brief insight
into the Calgary market, proposed programming, the advisory board, and the CTD
initiatives, all crucial elements in running this station, ensuring quality, and
outlining community involvement.
3513 MR. SIVIA: Running an FM station and staying in
tune with community needs is extremely necessary. Ethnic services become crucial for
ethnic communities, especially for new immigrants, since most are not fluent in
the English language.
3514 We have proposed a
balance of spoken word and music programming to serve the various community
groups.
3515 As you have heard this
week, the Calgary economy is booming, which can be seen from the current job
market. This job market has
attracted ethnic minorities, which has increased the ethnic population of
Calgary.
3516 If you look at the 1996
census, compared to 2001, the statistics show a 15.4 percent increase in the
population. The key indicators
suggest that the population continues to grow at a rate higher than previous
levels.
3517 Calgary now reflects
major Canadian cities where the visible minority population exceeds 25
percent.
3518 The City of Calgary
recently published data that indicate that 80,000 new jobs will be generated in
the next five years.
3519 The city projects that
the visible minority population will grow significantly, due to immigration from
other countries and the relocation of people from other Canadian
communities.
3520 For us to stay in touch
with the community and be on top of their needs, we will have an advisory
board. The committee will have a
mandate to ensure that our station is meeting the needs of the
community.
3521 Several seats on the
board will be filled by representatives of the Ukrainian and South Asian
communities.
3522 We would anticipate
that the smaller ethnic groups that we serve would have at least two
representatives on a rotating basis.
3523 We plan to have the
board meet at least quarterly, and will strive to have a gender balance and a
youth representative.
3524 Our general manager of
the station and program director will attend the advisory board
meetings.
3525 With respect to our CTD
proposal, we will provide direct benefits to young talent in Calgary, which will
allow us to connect directly to the communities we serve.
3526 We have three distinct
proposals, which I will quickly touch upon.
3527 The first one is a
talent contest in conjunction with Watan Music Academy. It will be an annual talent show and
contest that will be conducted in Calgary to seek out and promote local
talent. Judges will be chosen from
Calgary, and the talent show contestants will be chosen by the Watan Music
Academy.
3528 The winner, who may be
of any nationality, will be given the chance to record his or her own music CD,
which will be released by the FM station.
3529 We will work with the
other ethnic stations throughout Canada and the U.S. to obtain
airplay.
3530 The winner will be
given full copyrights to the recording.
3531 We will also work with
the record company to assist in the commercial distribution of the
recordings.
3532 Secondly, we will
provide a scholarship. The station
will provide a $1,000 scholarship, each, to five students studying excellence in
the media or arts field. We intend
to establish strong relationships with the University of Calgary and SAIT. We hope that this will lead to students
from multicultural backgrounds entering the broadcast
industry.
3533 Lastly, we acknowledge
the hard work that it takes to produce and record a CD. Free promotion and advertising will be
provided to any local artist who produces a CD and would like to promote their
CD on the air. We will even use
other mediums, including print, specialty TV and our website to promote and help
them in any way possible.
3534 This CTD plan follows
our company motto of promoting local talent and a positive outlet for
youth.
3535 MR. TAMBER: Now we will address the key programming
components of the station.
3536 Our goal is to
encourage families to listen to radio.
3537 In our South Asian
programming blocks, we will provide a variety of music programs for different
age groups, including contemporary music and Bollywood hits, which will attract
a younger audience, and traditional music, which will appeal to an older
audience.
3538 Many newly arrived
immigrants do not have a family support structure. Having access to information about
Canada and the social services available in Calgary are of prime importance in
order for people to succeed in this community.
3539 We have had great
success in our programs to engage community leaders and people from social
agencies to appear on phone‑in shows on a regular basis.
3540 It has been our
experience that women want access to information concerning social agencies that
can deal with such matters as domestic violence, ESL training, parenting and
pursuing job opportunities.
3541 We will provide spoken
word programming that will put our listeners in touch with experts and community
leaders.
3542 Our schedule, which was
filed with the application, lists news summaries as a significant part of the
programming. The station will have
an emphasis on local news, with local reporters and presenters, but we will also
use the resources of our existing network of seven overseas reporters and three
additional reporters who support our print, television and SCMO programming in
Toronto, Edmonton and Fort McMurray.
3543 Additional
entertainment and lifestyle information will be provided from our entertainment
magazine.
3544 MS ASMITA: I am pleased to appear before the
Commission. I am a recent immigrant
to Canada and, as many other young families, we identified Calgary as a good
place to live because of its low crime rate, economic opportunities, and the
fact that this is a multicultural city.
3545 Our South Asian
community is growing very quickly.
We immigrated to Calgary because we had close friends who had come here a
few years ago. So we arrived to
familiar faces, but there is very little programming available to us to listen
to.
3546 In India, I worked as a
professional journalist. I covered
top political stories and other news events for the Indian Express
newspaper.
3547 I am pleased to tell
you that since arriving here, in less than a year, I have found opportunities to
continue working in my profession.
3548 I cover Bollywood,
culture and entertainment stories for the Calgary Herald, and also contribute
articles to the Des Pardes Times.
3549 I look forward to the
contribution I can make as a journalist to a new radio station that is prepared
to cover issues of importance to our community.
3550 As a journalist, I know
that there is a demonstrated need for new radio outlets to serve the ethnic
community.
3551 I also bring with me
many contacts within Indian media and journalism, whom I can rely upon when
there are breaking stories out of South Asia. With internet, VoIP telephone, it is
very easy to get firsthand reports of news
events.
3552 MR. SINGH: Good afternoon. Working within the industry as a
reporter with a reputable news station and as a documentary producer here in
southern Alberta, I can tell you that there is a huge need for a variety of
programming that serves the growing South Asian communities in this
area.
3553 Having been born and
raised in southern Alberta, I see the need for an ethnic station that provides
unique but vital services to the minority communities.
3554 There are numerous
radio stations in this city which tend to duplicate one another, offering very
similar programming, which, on the whole, is not particularly reflective of the
diversity of this city.
3555 That growing population
is most certainly made up of ethnic minorities who need to have a media outlet
to serve their needs.
3556 Other major cities
across Canada all have mainstream cultural FM stations that cater their
programming to minority communities.
3557 It is hard to remember
a time when subcarrier or chip radio stations were last seen covering community
events or news. These media do not
provide enough variety of programming to be involved in the daily lives of
people. In fact, there are many
members of minorities, particularly in the South Asian community, who have no
idea that ethnic radio even exists in Calgary through these mediums, which, in a
sense, proves that it is non‑existent.
3558 The minority
communities in Calgary play a vital role in the city's economy and greater
society, but have virtually no coverage in the existing
media.
3559 The Sikh community
holds one of the largest annual parades in this city, with over 10,000 people in
attendance every year. However,
there is minimal to no mention of the event on any of the media outlets, whether
they be radio, television or print.
3560 In the interests of
time, I will not go into too many details; however, there is also one other idea
that I feel very much needs to be addressed, which is that today's youth and
ethnic minorities really have no way to link themselves back to their
culture.
3561 There is no connection
with today's existing media and that portion of society, but the need for
cultural issues to be discussed is greater than ever
before.
3562 Having ethnic
programming would provide a great asset for the minority communities in the
fight against drugs and gangs. This
is an immense need for the future of Calgary, and an ethnic radio station could
very much help in assisting today's youth in this city, linking their lives to
their cultural values and traditions.
3563 MR. ILNYCKY: I have resided in Calgary since 1974,
except for a two‑year period during the middle 1990s.
3564 I am active in the
Ukrainian community, more specifically, within the Ukrainian Catholic Church
community, and I have a very broad understanding of the ethnic communities in
Calgary.
3565 The
Ukrainian community has been in Calgary for over 100 years, and census figures
show a growth in the number of Ukrainians in Calgary during the 1980s and 1990s,
reflecting migration from other parts of Canada, and also immigration from
Ukraine itself and other diaspora countries, such as Poland, the former
Yugoslavia and parts of the Soviet Union.
As a result, the number of Ukrainian speakers in Calgary has
increased.
3566 We have also seen an
upsurge in the Ukrainian language and culture since the emergence of Ukraine as
an independent state in 1992.
3567 For our community,
local news, as well as local commentary, on events in Ukraine and the Ukrainian
diaspora would be important for the community.
3568 In my opinion, the
ethnic communities in Calgary are as diverse as those in Toronto, with the
principal difference being that they are proportionately smaller in
numbers.
3569 One very visible
indication of ethnic communities is the presence of various religious
groups. Within the Christian
segment of Calgary there are many denominational congregations organized along
various ethnic lines. Their numbers
have actually increased during the last 20 years. The same trend is also true for other
religions in Calgary.
3570 Currently, in Calgary,
there is one identifiable ethnic station, which appears to be anchored by
Cantonese, at least as evidenced by the website. To my knowledge, this group has not
expressed an interest in providing service to the Ukrainian community of
Calgary.
3571 MR. TAMBER: Although this was an open call for a new
radio licence, we believe that there is a demonstrated need for additional
programming to serve the growing immigrant community needs of
Calgary.
3572 You have heard from a
number of worthy candidates for an English‑language station; however, we believe
that Calgary's ethnic community continues to be under‑served relative to the
percentage of population they constitute.
3573 Ethnic and
multicultural broadcasting occupies a special position in the broadcasting
policy and the Broadcasting Act. We
ask that you take into account the special role that ethnic broadcasting plays
in reaching your decision.
3574 Our panel is open for
your questions. Thank
you.
3575 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
3576 I would ask Mr. Stuart
Langford to proceed with his questions of you.
3577 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
3578 I will try to keep this
as brief as possible, but, having said that, I have some areas that will take
some explanation, at least for me.
3579 I have read, very
thoroughly, your application and your supplementary brief, I have enjoyed your
remarks today, which answered some of my questions, I have pored over some of
the tables you have given us, and I still have questions.
3580 It's amazing. You pay a guy to ask questions, and he
can come up with some.
3581 I hope you will be
patient with me and that, together, we can work out the answers to the questions
I have, and we can emerge in the next hour or so with a fundamentally clear
understanding of what your application is all about and what its chances of
succeeding are as a business. As I
am sure your advisors have told you, that is a very, very important aspect. We dislike the notion of any of the
services we license failing, so we want to make sure that they have a good
chance of succeeding before we license them.
3582 Having said that, I
will now get on with some questions.
If you have been sitting in this room, you will know exactly what they
are going to be about. They are
going to be about format, they are going to be about what you are putting on the
radio, they are going to be about your CTD contributions, and they are going to
be about some of your projected revenues and expenses.
3583 It is always the same
story. Although you may be a little
tired of sitting over the last few days, I am sure you have gained from
listening to the other applicants.
3584 I want to clarify one
small point. I think you clarified
it today, but I think we had better be absolutely sure about
it.
3585 At least at one point,
in whatever paper has been filed to date, you referred to this new service as
serving 12 distinct groups and 14 languages. At other times it was 10 groups and 14
languages. This afternoon it was
10.
3586 I assume it is 10, but
could you clarify that point for me?
3587 MR. TAMBER: It is 10 groups and 14 different
languages.
3588 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: I assume that you would
accept a condition of licence to serve those groups and those
languages.
3589 MR. TAMBER: Yes.
3590 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Thank you very
much.
3591 The rest of the
questions will be a bit more difficult.
3592 Going now to what
people will hear if they tune in to your service, should you be licensed, I
understand from reading the paper to date that you have proposed a mix of 60
percent music content and 40 percent spoken word, and then the 40 percent is
broken up into different aspects, and we will get to that.
3593 I was wondering,
though, regarding the music, will it all be third language music, or will some
of the music have English lyrics?
3594 MR. TAMBER: On the ethnic shows it will be all third
language music, but there will be some remixes for the new generation. In the remixes there would only be a
couple of words in there anyway.
3595 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: The remixes have a
partial bit of English.
3596 MR. TAMBER: Very partial.
3597 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: All right. I think we can take it as a given that
this will be third language, both in spoken word and in music, with some
exceptions.
3598 MR. TAMBER: Yes.
3599 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Thank you for that. Again, these are things we have to clear
up.
3600 Looking at the proposed
schedule that you filed as part of your written material ‑‑ and we fully
understand that these schedules cannot be exact to the last minute, but I do
have some general questions with regard to the music/spoken word
mix.
3601 What I have here, with
the exception of the educational elements, is a schedule which essentially sets
out which language group will be programming at which time. What it doesn't tell me is the type of
programming I might be getting. So
I thought that, maybe, we could start with some of the easier, big blocks of
programming, the biggest being every day from 1:00 p.m. to 4:30 p.m.,
Punjabi.
3602 What are we likely to
hear?
3603 I don't need it in
absolute detail, but could you give me a breakdown between the music and the
spoken word content?
3604 MR. TAMBER: First of all, mostly every program,
before the host starts, there will be a couple of minutes of brief
news ‑‑
3605 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: A couple of minutes
of...?
3606 MR. TAMBER: Brief news. Local news.
3607 They will also talk
about community events ‑‑ upcoming events ‑‑ local and regional
events.
3608 In the programs there
will be a couple of ‑‑ it depends on who is the host.
3609 If we are talking about
a talk show ‑‑ and that is what we mostly like. Twenty‑seven percent is talk
show.
3610 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: When you say "talk show",
you mean spoken word, not music.
3611 MR. TAMBER: Talk show is spoken word, it's not
music.
3612 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: So what would a talk show
be? Would it be interviewing
guests, or would it be open line?
3613 MR. TAMBER: It could include a specialist ‑‑ a
woman coming from a women's crisis centre.
We could focus on that. She
would be talking.
3614 In the ethnic
community, we like to hear information, what goes on in the news. Then we could talk about that
information on our program, and clearly clarify what is going on in the
city.
3615 We could bring
entertainment, and we could talk to them for an hour on the
show.
3616 Mostly it's an
educational program that we will be talking to all the
time.
3617 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Let's say that we have
four hours. It's not quite that,
but we will call it four hours.
About one hour of that, or a little bit more, would be talk of some form
or another ‑‑ news, community events, special guests.
3618 Would there be some
phone‑in shows for that type of thing as well?
3619 MR. TAMBER: Yes. With our other stations, in other
provinces, most of the time we bring a professional in. They could be from a police unit. They
could be from blood donation services.
We could talk to them for an hour.
3620 This is making the
community aware of what goes on ‑‑ the importance of donating blood; if one
has diabetes ‑‑
3621 So most of it will be
educational programs, and also news and information
programs.
3622 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Could we expect, then,
that the rest of the time would be music?
3623 MR. TAMBER: We have proposed 60 percent
music.
3624 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: And that is across the
board. That would be the mix of
just about every hour?
3625 MR. TAMBER: The mix of every hour,
yes.
3626 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Let's take a small
segment, now that we have looked at a large one. Let's go to 11:00 a.m. to 11:30
a.m.
3627 Actually, I am not
clear on this.
3628 It seems to be,
actually, 11:30 to 12:00. It is the
Polish segment, Monday to Friday.
3629 Some of the times I
find difficult in this scheduling, but it may ‑‑
3630 MR. TAMBER: We are always doing five minutes of news
before any program anyhow.
3631 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: I see. Bear with me. Let's assume that we have an hour or
half an hour of Polish. Really, the
length is almost irrelevant at this point.
You would start with a small newscast?
3632 MR. TAMBER: Yes.
3633 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: In
Polish?
3634 MR. TAMBER: In Polish.
3635 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: And then you would have
music?
3636 MR. TAMBER: We would have
music.
3637 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: In
Polish.
3638 MR. TAMBER: In Polish, yes.
3639 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: And maybe some spoken
word ‑‑ a guest ‑‑ as well.
3640 MR. TAMBER: Not in this music time. This will be directed to music
only.
3641 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: The smaller segments,
then ‑‑
3642 MR. TAMBER: The small segments will be music
only.
3643 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: What about groups like
the Ukrainian and the Punjabi that have big sections of time and also small
sections of time?
3644 I am looking at, for
example, from 6:00 a.m. to 7:00 a.m., which is Punjabi, and from 8:00 a.m. to
9:00 a.m., which is Ukrainian.
3645 Give me an idea of what
those hour slots would look like.
3646 MR. TAMBER: These are the early morning, when we
will be playing five minutes of news, as I said before, before every
hour.
3647 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD:
Right.
3648 MR. TAMBER: We will also be playing
music.
3649 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Okay. So just about the same formula for the
smaller slots all the way through the day.
3650 MR. TAMBER: Yes.
3651 The bigger slots, we
will be having a lot of talk shows.
3652 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: We spoke about
Polish ‑‑
3653 Bear with me. I used to be a lawyer in my past life,
and I haven't gotten over being professionally thick in the head, so I have to
keep asking more and more questions.
3654 If you have, for
example, Polish, as you do, at either 11:00 or 11:30 ‑‑ it's not quite
clear to me, but it doesn't matter.
Polish in the morning for an hour, or half an hour. As you say, there will be a short
newscast and then some music.
3655 If we go all the way up
to Polish at midnight, another half hour, will that be the same formula again,
someone will be doing the news?
3656 MR. TAMBER: There will be some news, because we have
to cover the audience in the morning and the audience in the evening,
too.
3657 So the news will be
adjusted to current news that is happening, but we will have five minutes of
news and the rest will be music.
3658 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Would it be the same news
that was run at 11:30?
3659 MR. TAMBER: No, we would change it, because we have
staff reporters across the country who would update the
news.
3660 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: I see. That gives me a good idea of what it is
going to sound like. Very little
English language.
3661 When I look at your
references to the Watan Music Academy and Radio Watan in Toronto, the SCMO in
Toronto, you refer to the possibility of synergies. How exactly would that
work?
3662 I gather that this is a
music academy, obviously, by its name.
It supplies music. But it is
also in Toronto. So I am not
entirely sure. Would they be
sending you tapes?
3663 I guess that "tapes"
dates me; right? Nobody does tapes
any more. MP3 units or
whatever.
3664 Would they be sending
pre‑recorded music in whatever technological form we are dealing with by the
time you are licensed?
3665 MR. TAMBER: Yes. We are a small but large company to the
ethnic community in the media. We
will be using the resources from the SCMO in Toronto, from the FM station in
Toronto, and we will be saving costs because we will also be using those
programs here in Calgary.
3666 And music is the same,
when we are playing music. So we
could be using a lot of music from the station from Toronto, brought to
Calgary.
3667 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: What languages do the
Watan Music Academy and Radio Watan work in?
3668 MR. TAMBER: Hindi, Urdu and
Punjabi.
3669 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: You do a little bit of
Urdu, that's right.
3670 Might they be doing
your newscasts, for example, and then sending them here by internet or
whatever?
3671 MR. TAMBER: We do share a lot of news across our
different sources. In the
paper ‑‑ we share the news in the print media. On internet, we share the
news.
3672 We don't do much news
on the internet because it is just targeted to the young audience, just music
and images of current events.
3673 But from Toronto we
would be using news to our Calgary station, also, because we want to not just
give the local news, we want to give the international and the regional
news.
3674 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Would I be safe in
assuming or speculating that the international and national elements of an Urdu
or Punjabi newscast, for example, might come from Toronto, and then you would
tag onto that an element of local news that was produced
here?
3675 MR. TAMBER: Yes, we would take some of the news from
Toronto, because the Toronto station would cover most of the Toronto news. So whatever news is important to
broadcast here in the Calgary FM station, we will use some of the news to
broadcast here in Calgary.
3676 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: I have some experience in
news, but it was back in about the 14th Century, so I am somewhat dated, I
admit. Habitually, the way news
works, as I understand it, is that you have the talking head ‑‑ the hair
and teeth, as we refer to them ‑‑ well, not for poor old Peter Mansbridge
any more. It's just teeth now for
Peter.
3677 They front the whole
show, and then introduce reporters in different
situations.
3678 How would it work if
part of your newscast was coming from one place, Toronto, and the other part was
being put together here? Who would
be the main voice?
3679 MR. SINGH: If I could jump in, I think it works
similarly to any other news station here.
When you are working at a news station in Calgary, in your newscast you
have a portion that is ‑‑
3680 If your stories of
relevance are international, national or local, me, sitting here in Calgary, I
am not going to be able to cover a story in Montreal, or get sound clips from a
story in England.
3681 If a reporter who is
affiliated with our group covers that story, what you have is, you have a data
bank of "This is what is going on in the world today", and within your
resources ‑‑ these are our reporters who have covered these stories, and
they have filed these stories.
3682 As a producer here on
the Calgary show, I am going to decide what is relevant to Calgary
listeners. If it is an
international story that has to do with people in Calgary, I will put that in my
line‑up, but I will also use the stories that are local
Calgary.
3683 Using that database,
people in Toronto have the opportunity to use reporters' stories from Calgary,
as well as from all around the world.
3684 So the anchor in
Calgary, or the news producer for that line‑up, for that newscast in Calgary,
has the choice of using stories from a data bank from all around the
world.
3685 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: That's clear, except for
one question, if I may. Will the
anchor be in Calgary for all of your newscasts?
3686 MR. SINGH: I believe so. I believe that, because we are
doing ‑‑
3687 You can answer the
question. I'm sorry to jump
in.
3688 MR. TAMBER: We have news reporters all over the
world. We have five reporters in
India.
3689 One of our main persons
who handles the news in India, he left here from Canada to India. That is the person we use to bring the
news here. He will have his
reporters working under him, but he is the main person, who knows the CRTC rules
and regulations because he has worked here in Canada as a reporter. He will send us the news from
there.
3690 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: I appreciate that piece
of information, but I don't think it quite answers my
question.
3691 My question is,
assuming that you have an anchor ‑‑ a chief news reader ‑‑ will that
person be in Calgary, or will that person be in Toronto with some stories from
Calgary hooked onto it?
3692 MR. TAMBER: No, that person will be in
Calgary.
3693 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: For all newscasts, in all
languages?
3694 MR. TAMBER: Yes.
3695 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Thank you. That is very
helpful.
3696 So the relationship
will be as Mr. Singh has described it.
You will be borrowing elements of the Watan station, the Toronto stuff,
but not their full news broadcast.
3697 MR. TAMBER: No.
3698 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Thank you very much for
that.
3699 Let's talk a little
bit, if we may, about the spoken word ‑‑ the newscasts and some of the
other things. You have made
reference to it already, so we can cut to the chase a
little.
3700 You talk in some of the
filings to date of 32 newscasts per week, some of them as long as 10 or 15
minutes. But you spoke this
afternoon about a pattern of 5‑minute newscasts. Maybe you could clarify for me what,
overall, we are going to hear in the way of newscasts.
3701 MR. TAMBER: Our 5‑minute news is repeated news
throughout the day. Unless a
breaking news story comes in, we will change the format, but the 5‑minute news
will play every hour.
3702 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: In whatever particular
language happens to be ‑‑
3703 MR. TAMBER: In whatever particular
language.
3704 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: And the 10 and 15‑minute
ones that were referred to ‑‑
3705 MR. TAMBER: The 10 and 15‑minute ones are
local ‑‑ whoever is hosting that certain program. It would add the community events, what
is happening at the current time, and what is happening in his own
country.
3706 If it is the Polish
news time, he will do it in Polish.
If it's Italian, he will talk about Italy's soccer, or football, or
whatever we want to call it.
3707 He will add extra
minutes to that news.
3708 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Then I come to a problem
that I have trying to envisage exactly how this would
work.
3709 You have 14 languages,
and yet, when I look at your filings, as part of your appendices you filed a
number of charts on revenues and expenses, and one of the pages ‑‑ I am
afraid it doesn't have a number on it.
It is headed with your name and 78 Snowcap Road in Brampton. It is entitled "Programming and Salary
Forecasts".
3710 I see references here
to two news readers, eight programming producers, and two field reports, which I
assume must be field "reporters", it's just a typo.
3711 MR. TAMBER: Yes.
3712 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: It still doesn't get us
to 14.
3713 I am trying to figure
out how many languages the average news reader, for example, would have to know
to work at your station.
3714 MR. TAMBER: The Indian in India ‑‑ one person
will speak three languages, Urdu, Hindi and Punjabi. So that covers one part. And English also. But we are not doing any news in
English.
3715 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: So we have one person who
speaks three languages.
3716 Would that be a news
reader or a producer?
3717 MR. TAMBER: News reader.
3718 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: News reader. Okay. So now we have one more news reader
left. How many languages would this
person have to speak?
3719 MR. SIVIA: We have two news readers who will
be ‑‑
3720 We have
reporters ‑‑ I just want to give you a picture of what we have
currently.
3721 We have a newspaper in
Calgary. It has news reporters in
Calgary, in Edmonton, and also the same team is in Toronto, and the same example
in England.
3722 So all of the
reports ‑‑ the written words come as pre‑prepared news, and then we have
two presenters here. One will be
presenting South Asian, and the other one will be Ukrainian, but
the ‑‑
3723 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: The other one will be
what? Excuse
me.
3724 MR. SIVIA: The Ukrainian
language.
3725 They are
part‑time.
3726 The other communities
that we will be targeting, they have their own producers. The producers will do the news and music
and so on.
3727 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Let me get this right
again.
3728 MR. SIVIA: I want to clarify that they are hosts,
not the producers.
3729 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: The news readers are
hosts?
3730 MR. SIVIA: No, no. What I meant to say is, the other
community host ‑‑ for example, Vietnamese ‑‑ they will bring their own
news, but the two people that you mentioned in our financials are strictly just
for one South Asian and the other one for Ukrainian.
3731 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: These are news
readers.
3732 MR. SIVIA: Yes.
3733 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: One speaks three
languages, plus English; the other speaks Ukrainian, plus
English.
3734 MR. SIVIA: Yes.
3735 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Let's deal with them,
since we have them defined.
3736 You said they were
part‑time.
3737 MR. SIVIA: Yes.
3738 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: You have them down
here ‑‑ and, I'm sorry, I am jumping out of programming into
budgeting. It works, so I think we
might as well go with the flow, rather than stick to the rigid
script.
3739 You have them down here
as being paid $13,500 annually.
3740 MR. SIVIA: Yes.
3741 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: What does that work out
to an hour?
3742 Do you have any
idea?
3743 MR. SIVIA: You see, working with the ethnic
community, they are not like English radio, the highly paid
people.
3744 I have a journalist
sitting here who has no job, because she is not good in English. She can't obtain a job in some English
broadcasting station.
3745 But, here, she is so
interested in devoting time to our community, and she is willing to work as a
part‑time news announcer.
3746 That is an
example.
3747 So these kinds of
people we will hire into our station.
They are not full‑time employees.
They will be given specific jobs to do, and then they will just stick to
that.
3748 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: So how many hours would
that take per day, on an average day?
3749 MR. SIVIA: I would say that the news would be
pre‑prepared, and it will be scanned before it comes here. We will know what the news is
going to be, and the person would just sit in and speak to
it.
3750 I believe, for full
bulletins, I would say that the person would come two hours a day to read the
news.
3751 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: So this person would show
up ‑‑ for example, if we were doing Punjabi, this person would not write
the news, they would show up to read it at 6:00 in the morning, and then show up
to read it again at 1:00 and ‑‑
3752 MR. SIVIA: No. I meant to say "full‑fledged"
news ‑‑
3753 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: I beg your pardon,
sir?
3754 MR. TAMBER: Let me add that this news is repeated
news. Any breaking news will be
spoken by ‑‑ or will be hosted by the host
itself.
3755 The news we are talking
about will be produced part‑time by certain producers, in the morning and in the
evening.
3756 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: And this is what we are
referring to as news readers?
3757 These are the people
who are producing this?
3758 MR. TAMBER: Yes.
3759 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: But the news
reader ‑‑
3760 Maybe I am locked onto
the title. Maybe it should be "news
person" or something.
3761 If the news reader
shows up at 6:00, taking the Punjabi example, and then does Urdu at 9:00, and
then does Urdu again at 11:00, and then does Punjabi at 1:00, Hindi at
4:30 ‑‑ that's a long day. Who
will do that for $13,500?
3762 MR. TAMBER: The news is recorded only once in the
morning, and then it is repeated.
Any breaking news is hosted by the host only.
3763 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: I see. So what you would do is play the
news ‑‑
3764 The news would be
recorded ‑‑
3765 MR. TAMBER: In the
morning.
3766 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
‑‑ I suppose, at 6:00, and whatever, and
then ‑‑
3767 MR. TAMBER: It will be
played ‑‑
3768 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
‑‑ played in three languages.
3769 Taking the example of
the Indian news person, that would be three languages, and then the
host ‑‑
3770 MR. TAMBER: These salaries are only for Ukrainian
and South Asian news. Any other
news we will be producing.
3771 Like, say, Italian news
from Italy, it will be done by the host himself, because he is ‑‑ we are
not paying for his cost to produce the news, because he will be doing the news
by himself.
3772 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: And who pays
him?
3773 MR. SIVIA: They will be on shared revenue with
us.
3774 For example, the
Vietnamese programming will be done, but because it is a small amount, they will
collect the revenue, and the revenue coming into the station will be shared with
the person who is hosting that program.
3775 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: You are going to have to
go over that one a little more slowly for me.
3776 They are on a kind of
profit sharing, these people?
3777 MR. SIVIA: To some extent,
yes.
3778 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Would this sort of profit
sharing apply to everybody except Punjabi, Hindi ‑‑ can I use the general
term Indian ‑‑ and Ukrainian?
3779 MR. SIVIA: Yes.
3780 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Everyone else is on
profit sharing?
3781 MR. SIVIA: The small communities,
yes.
3782 We will give them a
chance, because if it's a small community they cannot afford brokerage
time.
3783 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: We were going to get to
that.
3784 Although, believe me,
the size of some of these communities does give one reason to sort of hold your
breath a little, in the sense of a business plan.
3785 MR. SIVIA: Yes.
3786 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Let's take one. You pick, if you like, or I will
pick.
3787 Let's take the
Russians, who are on from 5:00 to 9:00.
They get four hours on Saturday.
3788 Explain to me how your
relationship would work with the Russian producer, if I could call that person
that.
3789 MR. SIVIA: What we will do is, we will provide them
our production ‑‑ our studio facilities, our airtime. And those people from Russia, for
example, that you choose, will go and get the advertisers ‑‑ will collect
the advertisements from the community, and the station will share the profit
with that person, to support those communities, because they cannot
afford ‑‑ as I said, they cannot afford their own time into the
station.
3790 Being an ethnic, we
also cannot afford ourselves buying a producer for such a price. So here we can work with the community
by sharing the money.
3791 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Okay. Let me make sure that I have it
right. Some members of the Russian
community ‑‑ and I gather it is reasonably small, but still you would get
some interested members who would agree to put on some Russian programming,
broken down 60:40 music/spoken word, some of which would be news, some of which
would be guests ‑‑ the very sort of format that you described
earlier.
3792 In order to gain some
revenue from this, you would have some sort of revenue splitting. So whatever ads were sold, you would get
a percentage and they would get a percentage. They would also get the use of your
studio facilities.
3793 MR. SIVIA: Yes.
3794 I also wanted to
mention that we have full‑time staff at the station, so any problem they have,
they could also consult with them.
3795 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: You have a full‑time
Russian‑speaking staff?
3796 MR. SIVIA: No, not Russian, our station staff. If they need any help with the
technology and so on ‑‑
3797 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: I don't always want to be
pursuing negative thoughts here, and I apologize ‑‑ and I want you to know
that it is going to get a little negative now because of my misunderstanding of
this. But I want you to know that I
fully appreciate the sentiments behind this application. I fully understand the spirit of it, and
I fully understand the market need and the human need that you are trying to
meet here. I don't have any doubt
about that in my mind. I am fully
cognizant of the directions in the Broadcasting Act which would lead us to think
that this is the very sort of thing that we should be trying to promote, and
bending over backwards to help you with.
But that doesn't take away from the fact that I do have a few
concerns.
3798 Let's take our Russian
example. How do you control what
this group puts on the air?
3799 MR. SIVIA: We have an advisory board that will be
constantly connected with our station, and there are members who will be on a
rotating basis from those small amount of people that are there. They will be reporting back to us
regarding this.
3800 Plus, our manager will
also be constantly in contact with these people, to make sure they follow the
CRTC guidelines.
3801 It is very important to
follow the CRTC guidelines. We are
going to make them understand what to broadcast.
3802 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Let me get more
fundamental, if I may. It is also
important to try, as best we can, to objectively tell the truth when we are
doing news. It can't get any more
basic than that.
3803 Who is
there?
3804 Other than this
advisory board member, who is there to say that the Russian news is accurate and
balanced, that the Russian presentation of a guest on a very important public
policy issue is balanced and accurate, at least as accurate as can be, or at
least gives an opportunity for fair comment on the other
side?
3805 And I would take that
through all of the other languages that aren't Ukrainian or Indian in
origin. Who is there? Who is on your
staff?
3806 I don't see anybody
like this in your list of employees.
Who is there to ensure that there is this kind of very important balance
and control, which we need when we are putting what is passing for information
and truth out on the public airwaves?
3807 MR. TAMBER: We are not just going to put anybody on
the mic. Our company will be
thoroughly investigating anybody who will be hosting that program, or could be
hired through that station.
3808 Our team will work
together with the community members.
Each community knows which community leader is the best for
them.
3809 This is where our
company management team will come in and thoroughly investigate who is the
Russian person who will be hosting the news, what experience does he
have.
3810 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: I don't doubt that you
will try. I don't doubt best
efforts here, but I have to say that it seems to me that the scope for problems
is reasonably large. It is simply a
control area.
3811 I can see in the bigger
pieces that you have probably got people right on staff who can fact‑check and
check, even more, the kind of context of what is going out. And music, of course, is, I assume, not
a problem, unless there is some equivalent to "eminem" coming out of Russia
these days, and there well might be.
3812 Okay. I have your answer on
that.
3813 Just to go back to this
chart again ‑‑ and I am sorry to beat it to death, but I look at another
category that is in the $13,500 a year range, and that is the producers ‑‑
programming producers ‑‑ eight of them.
3814 Where do they fit in?
What kind of jobs will they be
doing?
3815 MR. SIVIA: They will be more of ‑‑ say, for
the South Asian community, we have a four‑hour block. There are a lot of identified people
that we have here who will work with our
station.
3816 Again, as I mentioned
before, we are limited with the budget.
Those people understand, and they want to reach out to the
community.
3817 They will work as an
announcer, for example, or a host part‑time.
3818 Because it is an ethnic
station, you also have to understand that it's not one man being assigned this
job and he is only dedicated ‑‑
3819 There is a general
manager, who will be talking to the communities. He will probably be sitting some days on
the board, helping the person who is hosting.
3820 You have to understand
how the ethnic people ‑‑ we work with each other, you know. We help. It's not that, the general manager, he
is just going to sit on a chair and monitor, he is also going to be there
helping people.
3821 This is how the
part‑time people will come in.
3822 MR. TAMBER: Let me add to that. Through our station in Toronto, and
newspapers in Edmonton, and also our radio station in Toronto ‑‑ one
person, in particular, left for a bigger station. Say, if he is a news announcer, he is
going to announce news all day. We
don't have a budget for that. But,
in an ethnic station, one person is used in many different operations. He could be doing the news, also he
could be hosting a program.
3823 We have a staff for
Punjabi and Ukrainian, but the smaller audiences we have, they bring their own
show, and they are playing mostly music.
Five minutes of news, which will be monitored, but they are only playing
music and playing commercials, and that will be monitored by our
staff.
3824 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: I appreciate your
experience with the SCMO, and I don't mean to denigrate it in any way. We all start somewhere, and we start
where we can, but I think there is a huge difference ‑‑ and I am sure you
would agree ‑‑ between the impact of an SCMO and that of a full‑power
commercial FM station in a large urban area. There can be a massive impact, because
it will be taken as the voice of authority. It has a certain cache simply because of
its size and power.
3825 You know, when I hear
Mr. Singh ‑‑ and it is so nice to put a face on a name after all these
years of listening to him on the CBC ‑‑ there is an assumption that I am
getting fact‑based, balanced news.
It kind of goes with the territory.
3826 So it has an enormous
impact.
3827 I don't want to sound
preachy in my comments, but I think there is ‑‑
3828 I appreciate your
experience with the SCMO, but I think this is a big leap from an SCMO,
frankly.
3829 MR. TAMBER: I do understand that. I also work for a national ‑‑
Vision TV, so we do understand the rules and regulations.
3830 We also have a one‑hour
show on CIUT‑FM in Toronto, and with the print media.
3831 So we are experienced
FM broadcasters in Toronto.
3832 We are also on the
web. So we have experience working
with different communities, working with different languages, working with the
rules and regulations of the CRTC.
3833 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: I think you will recall,
though, if you work with Vision TV, that they got themselves into a certain
amount of difficulty in this very way a few years ago, because what they were
taking was brokered programming that they weren't controlling and they weren't
pre‑screening.
3834 What fell out was a
huge rant against homosexuality, which was something that the CRTC had to take
them to task for.
3835 That wasn't the end of
the world. They have a very good
record overall, but that one slipped through their controls, because they were
selling airtime and they simply didn't have the controls in place to screen it
and to approve it for content and for tone.
3836 I appreciate your
experience with Vision TV, but even a long‑time broadcaster like Vision has run
into difficulties with this very problem of ‑‑ if I can call them
that ‑‑ outsiders. I don't
mean that in a derogatory way, but people outside your particular organization
coming in and getting access to a microphone. This could lead to
problems.
3837 It can be particularly
difficult when their access to the microphone is to be used in a language you
don't understand.
3838 I appreciate that you
have an advisory board, and we will get to some questions I have on that, but I
wonder whether that is quite enough.
3839 It is one thing to put
a day's schedule on, but when you are putting on a year's schedule, a seven‑year
schedule, that is a lot to put on the back of a volunteer advisory member. That is a real hard load to
carry.
3840 We will get back to
some of the salary levels. I am
taking a little too much time, but I think these points are important to
clarify.
3841 Let me ask you about
one other aspect of your spoken word programming that I didn't quite understand;
that is, educational language courses in ‑‑ I thought it was in French and
English, until I saw your programming.
So maybe we could start with that.
It is only in French.
3842 Will there be
educational language courses in English and French, or just in
French?
3843 MR. TAMBER: No, that will be in French
only.
3844 MR. SIVIA: I would like to add that we are
developing a program for our VTV where the same scenario ‑‑ in Toronto we
are trying to develop this with the community. For our TV viewers we are developing
this program for teaching French to ethnic people.
3845 So it's fairly new, but
we are trying to do something that can help the community.
3846 I just wanted to add
that we are in the process of developing this program for our
TV ‑‑
3847 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: For
TV.
3848 MR. SIVIA: Yes.
3849 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: And you are developing it
yourselves?
3850 MR. SIVIA: No, we have identified people in Toronto
who speak South Asian languages, and they also speak French and English. We have identified, even, a very
professional host who speaks French and South Asian languages in
Toronto.
3851 We are working with
those people to put this program together for specialty
TV.
3852 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Could you give me some
notion of how an hour of this would work?
3853 What will I hear when I
turn on my radio? I am dying to
learn French, so I turn it on and someone says "Bonjour"?
3854 MR. SIVIA: It is more for the ethnic people,
because we will be teaching them, just like how we teach ESL. It is similar to
that.
3855 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: But who are you
teaching? Are you teaching South
Asian people, or Ukrainian people, or Polish people, or does it
matter?
3856 Have you figured out
some way to teach everybody at once?
3857 MR. TAMBER: This will be taught to South Asian and
the Ukrainian people first.
3858 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: I see. You have the personnel in line to do
this?
3859 You are working on
it.
3860 MR. TAMBER: We have the personnel in line who are
willing to come on board and work with us.
3861 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Do you have any idea of
the cost of this programming?
3862 MR. SIVIA: I just wanted to mention that the cost
of this programming is on our specialty channel, which is going to produce these
programs.
3863 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: This is your Category 2
specialty channel?
3864 MR. SIVIA: We are in the process of launching VTV,
as we mentioned, on our ‑‑ our parent station, that we are going to be
launching specialty 2 channel, which ‑‑ we have most of the parts done, and
in a matter of months it will be launched over the air.
3865 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Do you have carriage
agreements with ‑‑
3866 MR. SIVIA: Yes, we have the carriage agreement in
the western part of Canada, and we are almost to touch ‑‑ deal with the
Toronto side ‑‑ Ontario part of it.
3867 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Who will be carrying it
here? Shaw?
3868 MR. SIVIA: Telus is launching their
service.
3869 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD:
Telus.
3870 MR. SIVIA: Yes.
3871 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: That's
interesting.
3872 Basically, what you are
going to do ‑‑ and don't let me put words in your mouth, but it sounds like
what you are going to do is simply just lift the audio portion of this
television program and run it on the radio.
3873 MR. SIVIA: Yes, that is what we intend to do,
because there are educational programs ‑‑
3874 The same percentage of
our TV will be ‑‑ it's the same percentage.
3875 When we were doing the
application, we considered this, because it is already in our TV. So it will reduce the cost of producing
such a program on ethnic stations.
3876 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: I don't want in any way
to minimize the value of learning French.
I am struggling every week with my four hours of courses, but I same
getting there. I won't bore you
with a demonstration. I won't
assault you with a demonstration, but I am doing my best, so I am a big
backer. Even though I am so old now
that I am not covered by anybody's demographic, still I am
trying.
3877 But I am not entirely
sure why, in a city where the language ‑‑ over 80 percent of the people
speak English and almost no one speaks French as a first language. Why would you be teaching French rather
than English?
3878 MR. TAMBER: Being an ethnic broadcaster, we
believe ‑‑ and through our community experience, through our
kids ‑‑
3879 I have two kids. It is very difficult for the newcomer
parents, first of all, to learn English, another language, and then they have to
learn French.
3880 They are having a
difficult time with the kids, teaching them their homework. This program will help the South Asian
kids with their French homework. It
will teach them the basic understanding of the ‑‑ just like the ESL ‑‑
English and the French also.
3881 So, as an ethnic radio
broadcaster, we are here to help the community where they need the
help.
3882 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: So this is for school
children mostly.
3883 MR. TAMBER: It is mostly for school
children.
3884 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: May I ask you, then, why
you would put it on five times a week at 10:00 p.m. in the
evening?
3885 MR. SIVIA: Ten p.m. is when the family sits
together.
3886 I work with a lot of
people, and I see that most of the English people have dinner at 6:00 or 7:00
and they go to bed early, but myself and my parents, we go to bed at 10:00,
11:00 or 12:00.
3887 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: What about your
children? When do they go to
bed?
3888 MR. SIVIA: I don't have children
yet.
3889 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: All right. Somebody here must have
children.
3890 How do they get up for
school if ‑‑
3891 MR. SIVIA: My nephew goes to bed pretty late. I mean, that is the
structure ‑‑
3892 My nephew probably came
up, but ‑‑
3893 MR. TAMBER: Each community works differently, but if
we have to adjust the time, we would adjust the time. That is not a
problem.
3894 But the reason we have
that French in there is because we want to help the community. The community is lacking in
French.
3895 If we have to change
the time to eight o'clock, we would be happy to change it.
3896 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: It sounds like a winning
idea, but you might want to do it at six o'clock.
3897 No, that would be the
Ukrainian time.
3898 I leave that with you,
and I don't know what time all children go to bed. I know that mine always went to bed too
late, even if it was early.
3899 Those are my questions
on that. I have your answers, and I
am grateful for them.
3900 I want to move now,
because I am going a little too slowly, and I apologize, to volunteer
programming.
3901 You say in your October
17th, 2005 letter ‑‑ you refer to recruiting volunteers from local temples
and community service organizations.
That is a direct quote. They
will produce eight hours and 45 minutes a week.
3902 Can you give me some
idea of what we are talking about here?
3903 MR. TAMBER: That is the educational programming,
eight hours and 45 minutes. I
believe that is what we are talking about.
3904 MR. SIVIA: Yes, it is eight hours and 45
minutes.
3905 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Where will that fit
in?
3906 Is that just part of
the 27 percent?
3907 MR. TAMBER: Yes.
3908 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: What kind of education
would you be giving?
3909 MR. TAMBER: That is the French timing we are talking
about, eight hours and 45 minutes.
3910 MR. SIVIA: No, sorry, it is the community people
who would be talking on our TV.
3911 For example, there is
an immigrant women's association in Calgary. A lot of women from South Asia, they
don't like to come up ‑‑ or they don't have resources to come up into their
organization and obtain help. So we
will get those kind of speakers coming into our radio station. And they will come to our radio
station. They are experienced
speakers. They teach the community
the whole day. This is their
job.
3912 These kind of
experienced speakers will be coming to our radio
station.
3913 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: I think that I appreciate
what type of programming it is, but why would you differentiate it? Why is it any different from any of the
other spoken word programming? Why
is it centred out here as some sort of special type?
3914 I don't quite
understand that.
3915 MR. TAMBER: This is where ethnic communities ‑‑
for the women, it's hard to speak out.
We will be bringing a woman from a women's association. She could be talking about social
issues, wife abuse or children abuse.
3916 These are the education
programs. We call them educational
because ‑‑
3917 It could be winter
driving, looking at the weather today; teaching the newcomers in the ethnic
community how to handle a car and when to slow ‑‑
3918 We treat that as an
educational program.
3919 It could be teaching
somebody why it is important to donate blood. We call that an educational program
because we are in a country where a network is helping each other, is helping to
build the country, and that is what we are here for, looking at this great
country of ours.
3920 I have done a lot of
volunteer work through the Peel Police in Toronto. We have a softball
club.
3921 It's through
education ‑‑ if you are not giving education to people of why it is
important not to abuse your wife, why it is important to teach the kids and
work ‑‑
3922 These are the
educational programs we are producing for eight hours and 45 minutes, and we
could get these through different organizations.
3923 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Maybe I am hung up on a
problem here. I understand the
value of this, and you have spoken very eloquently about it, and thank you for
that.
3924 Who is to produce
it?
3925 What I understood from
the October 17th letter ‑‑ and perhaps I read it incorrectly ‑‑ was
that the volunteer would actually produce this. Are you now saying that you will produce
it?
3926 MR. TAMBER: No, these are the organizations ‑‑
it could be a women's association.
They are looking to reach out to the community. To give them time on the air, and host a
program ‑‑ an educational program ‑‑ it not only benefits them, but it
benefits the City of Calgary, because they are putting their educational voice
out to reach the community they want to reach.
3927 MR. LEWIS: Commissioner Langford, I think,
conceptually, the type of programming that Mr. Tamber is talking about is more
structured, where community organizations participate with the radio station on
a regular basis. Perhaps one day a
month or one day a week a particular individual, who would be designated from a
social service agency, would come in and the station would produce a show with
them.
3928 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: You are saying that the
station is going to produce this programming.
3929 MR. LEWIS: The station would produce the show, but,
as opposed to what I would call rolling ‑‑ the old ‑‑ I go back to the
foreground days ‑‑ the rolling format program, where there is music and
less structured talk. Let's put it
that way.
3930 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: I think that is some
comfort.
3931 My concern was, again,
a lack of control, and in comes yet another element. And I don't in any way question the
energy and the spirit with which these people will approach this, but you still
need a certain degree of professionalism, and I wonder what the overall quality
of your station would be if you are inviting in so many volunteers,
amateurs ‑‑ people who want to do a good job, but perhaps aren't skilled at
doing it.
3932 The quality might
suffer horribly.
3933 MR. TAMBER: Let me add that if we were looking at
the YMCA, they have to have quality to help people.
3934 Looking at a women's
association that is supported by the City of Calgary, they must have good
guidelines and information to give out to the community. That is why they are receiving their
funding.
3935 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Yes, and I agree that the
people would be high quality, but you need a certain amount of familiarity with
broadcasting to be able to put together an interesting, well presented
show.
3936 I am sure that your
associate here would tell you that she has years of
experience.
3937 You can't just take
anyone off the street, no matter how qualified and how eager they are, and
expect that they are going to maintain the quality that I am sure you are going
to want for this station.
3938 MR. SIVIA: I just wanted to mention, also, on the
same questions, we answered that these hours will be monitored by our
programming directors, or the general manager of our station, because they are
really critical and we want them to be monitored by someone who is
highly ‑‑ a good employee for our station.
3939 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: All right. Another possible stumbling block ‑‑
and any broadcaster will tell you this, this is not unique to ethnic
broadcasting ‑‑ is the open‑line show. The famous open‑line
show.
3940 Are you planning to do
open‑line shows?
3941 MR. TAMBER: Yes, we are.
3942 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Are you familiar with the
need for balance and to screen out abusive and offensive comments, which are
requirements of CRTC policy?
3943 MR. TAMBER: Yes, we are, and we will follow all of
the rules and regulations ‑‑ the guidelines of the
CRTC.
3944 MR. SIVIA: Also, in our brief, we said that we will
have a policy for these talk shows.
And it is not every single producer or part‑time producer who will be
doing an open‑line program. We want
senior, serious people conducting these kind of
shows.
3945 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Still, there is no reason
why the Russians, who have five hours ‑‑
3946 I keep picking on the
Russians. We will do the
Italians.
3947 There is no reason why
the Italians can't have an open‑line show, is there? Or would you just not allow
that?
3948 MR. TAMBER: For the Italians, due to the tiny size
of the population, there is very minimum time for them, so we stuck to music for
the Italians.
3949 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: I'll say it's tiny. According to the Financial Post's 2005
estimates, language at home ‑‑ listing the number of people who speak
Italian at home, which is a pretty good test as to whether they are going to
listen to the radio in Italian or not ‑‑ 1,038 as of last
year.
3950 That brings us to
another issue. Can you carry five
hours of programming a week if you only have 1,038 people?
3951 MR. SIVIA: You are referring to Italian‑speaking
people?
3952 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD:
Yes.
3953 MR. SIVIA: I don't think we have five hours, but I
will double confirm ‑‑
3954 MR. TAMBER: It is four hours
weekly.
3955 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: All right. Four. Excuse me. I never was good at math. I apologize.
3956 MR. TAMBER: That is four hours weekly, so that works
out to about half an hour ‑‑
3957 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: I beg your
pardon?
3958 MR. TAMBER: It is four hours
weekly.
3959 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: In one block. So four hours.
3960 I apologize, I read
that wrong.
3961 That is probably why
the people in the Income Tax Department never like what I send to them in
April.
3962 The question
stands. You have four hours, and
you have a group of, essentially, 1,000 people, which is your total possible
audience. I don't know if you can
assume they are all going to be home on Sunday at five
o'clock.
3963 You could end up with
an audience of a few hundred people.
3964 How long can you carry
the economic freight for that, because you are on some sort of profit
sharing.
3965 MR. SIVIA: I just want to mention that a big
portion of our revenue is coming from South Asian broadcasting. A big bunch. And then we are left with so
much ‑‑ a little money from those small communities to gather
from.
3966 As you said, 1,000
Italian‑speaking people ‑‑ but the StatsCan ‑‑
3967 I mean, the ethnic
people ‑‑ for example, when Statistics Canada would do a survey, my parents
would never respond to it. They
would never get into those numbers.
3968 I am not saying that
Statistics Canada is wrong, but, as far as the ethnic communities, they are not
that accurate that we can find within the
communities ‑‑
3969 Perhaps, I believe, the
same thing can be implemented to the Italian community,
also.
3970 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: You are saying that the
numbers may be vastly understated.
3971 MR. SIVIA: To our understanding, the number for the
Italian population should be more than what you are
stating.
3972 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: But I am not speaking
about the entire Italian population, I am speaking about that part of the
Italian population which identifies its home language ‑‑ the language they
speak at home, that they feel comfortable in ‑‑ as being
Italian.
3973 I assume that people
who have been in Canada longer may have switched over, on a day‑to‑day basis, to
English, perhaps without even knowing it is happening, but it has
happened.
3974 MR. SIVIA: Yes. We also find that within our community,
because you can talk with them every day, but
those ‑‑
3975 For example,
kids ‑‑ like my age, would they still be listening to the music of South
Asia? If you wanted to just
compare ‑‑
3976 The youth of South Asia
would listen to Punjabi music, would listen to what is going on, but they don't
speak Punjabi. When a survey would
come to them, they would state that they are English speakers, rather than
saying they are Punjabi speakers.
But they will love to hear what their culture is about. They will love to hear the music that we
play. A lot of these kids, I mean,
they barely speak Punjabi, but they listen all day to Punjabi
music.
3977 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: How did you choose the
groups that you chose?
3978 I mean, the big ones
are somewhat obvious, but how did you choose
them?
3979 MR. SIVIA: We chose by ‑‑ we did our study in
the market, because we have a newspaper and we always talk with our
newspaper. But, there again, most
of them are committed with the South Asians.
3980 But we had a feel for
the community, and we also checked the Statistics Canada numbers, and we matched
them. We had our staff here
working, and then we worked out with them what the best numbers were, and what
is the population that is not being served.
3981 As I said, we are going
to draw a big amount of money from South Asians, but we also have to support
these other communities, although we will probably have to fund some money from
South Asian to, for example, Italian programming. You know, if you can't get a really good
response ‑‑ but we are still going to continue providing those
languages. The revenue will
probably be diverted from our South Asian revenue that is going to
come.
3982 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: What you are saying is
that you expect the vast majority of your revenues to come from the
larger ‑‑ the two larger blocks ‑‑ South Asian and Ukrainian ‑‑
and that they will subsidize the others, if necessary, assuming that the other
people will work virtually ‑‑
3983 MR. SIVIA: Yes. Once the station is on the air, if we
have to subsidize some people, yes, we would.
3984 MR. TAMBER: Let me add to that. With the experience with the newspaper
and the business directory, we have a lot of people in the South Asian community
who are willing to jump on with us for the FM station, because with the first
edition of the business directory we had 300 business pages on this for these
business pages.
3985 Now, this being the
third edition, we are almost over 400 businesses listed in the business
directory.
3986 So we know the South
Asian market, and we also know the value and the price of the market, and we
know the numbers that are willing to jump on the FM
station.
3987 We have a huge market
in the South Asian community. If we
lack on the Italian budget, the South Asian would ‑‑ there is enough
budget in there to cover the costs of the Italian
time.
3988 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: I wonder. There may be enough revenue, in a sense,
that you can keep the rent paid and the staff paid and the heat on, but the
other side of the equation, it seems to me, is that you have a large group of
your 14 languages represented, who are essentially being asked to work as part
of a speculative venture.
3989 You come and you do
your four hours of Russian, or your two hours of Filipino, and if you can sell
some ads, you will get part of it, but if you can't you will get
nothing.
3990 How long will it be
before they tire, if, by your own admission here today, there isn't a lot of
market out in those smaller language groups?
3991 MR. SIVIA: For example, the Vietnamese
community ‑‑ you only recognize that there is one number, but you also see
the stats, which are very minimum.
But if you go ‑‑ the community has grown so
big ‑‑
3992 I mean, we have here
Kim, who feels that there are a lot of advertisers. There are two newspapers, and they are
full of a lot of advertising, and still, a lot of people, they don't advertise
in those sources, they like to advertise on the radio.
3993 You have to also
understand that these groups don't receive no programming at all, and when we
have a program and we are expecting a lot of people to listen to it, that is the
only source of the business to advertising.
3994 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: The story seems to change
dramatically. At one point, not
very long ago ‑‑ five or six minutes ago, I would suggest ‑‑ you were
saying to me that you are going to have to subsidize the smaller communities,
that the South Asian community will basically be carrying the freight here. That is the big money‑maker. But now you are telling me,
no ‑‑
3995 MR. SIVIA: I feel that the community will be saying
that it can fulfil the need that we would be expecting from the community, but
the subsidies will only be if they cannot support themselves, or if something we
projected ‑‑
3996 You know, say that
everything doesn't work 100 percent.
We are very confident that we can achieve what we proposed, but if
something, as you said, to be on the negative side ‑‑ if the Italians don't
have enough resources to pay, we will pay for that.
3997 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: You will even pay a
salary for the Italian programmer, or the Italian host?
3998 MR. TAMBER: There is enough budget revenue to cover
the salary.
3999 I believe, with only
four hours per week on the Italian, or any other language, is very minimum. I believe they will be able to pull in
the advertising.
4000 There are enough
businesses in the Calgary community to support their
community.
4001 I think, if you call an
ethnic channel, anybody would love to support their language. This is what Canada is all about. This is what the ethnic station is all
about.
4002 I mean, if I have a
chance to support my Punjabi channel ‑‑ Punjabi language ‑‑ and teach
my community the values of the lifestyle in Canada, I think that supporting a
very minor budget should not be a problem for the Italian, Filipino or any other
community.
4003 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: I admire your positive
thinking.
4004 Let's take one more
example. We are really talking now
about revenue projections here.
4005 It would seem to me,
listening to you, that the larger the community, almost axiomatic, the more
revenue you will be able to generate.
There will be more businesses, there will be more people willing to
advertise.
4006 Does that make sense to
you? Am I
correct?
4007 MR. TAMBER: Yes, it does.
4008 If you look at our
budget, we haven't projected any national advertisement in our budget. In our budget we only
projected ‑‑
4009 No, we haven't
projected any national advertisement, because that could also fill the
field.
4010 Through our paper and
our SCMO and other experience ‑‑ we have national advertisement in our
paper, but we have not projected any budget in this radio station that there
will be any national advertisement.
4011 That money could be
there to help out the smaller communities.
4012 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Let me make an
observation here. You have set
aside a good deal of time, five days a week, about four hours a day ‑‑ five
hours a day, five days a week, for Ukrainian programming, and you have set aside
one hour per day, five days a week, for Vietnamese ‑‑
4013 Have I got that right,
or is it only one hour?
4014 It is only one hour for
the whole week, I think. Yes, one
hour, 9:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. on Sunday for the
Vietnamese.
4015 My reading of the
statistics would say that the Vietnamese community is at least twice the size of
the Ukrainian‑speaking community.
4016 MR. SIVIA: I just wanted to point out that when we
did the FM proposal, we had Mr. Kim Bode with us. Some communities expect
extra ‑‑
4017 I mean, we thought that
one hour would be enough, but there is people demand. People are calling us. They send us support letters. They are saying that there are great
people that can listen to us, and later we can have more amount of time devoted
to the Vietnamese communities.
4018 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Are you saying that this
is a moveable feast, that you may change this around, that you may take from
Peter to pay Paul?
4019 You are going to get
the support of Paul, that's for sure, but are you saying that you may have to
strip away ‑‑ and let's be specific ‑‑ some of the time dedicated to
the Ukrainian community and give it to the
Vietnamese?
4020 MR. TAMBER: We don't want to take any pie away from
anybody, but if they are not supporting their timetable, and if there is a need
for the Vietnamese community to jump on board and produce the revenue, we would
follow the guidelines to change the schedule, if we have to. But we will stick to this timetable at
this moment.
4021 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: You have your advisory
board member behind you. I am sure
that he can protect the interests of his community, and I will leave that task
to him.
4022 You have said
today ‑‑ and certainly there is nothing on the paper file to indicate
otherwise ‑‑ that you have, in fact, done no professional market surveys at
all, that your projections of revenue, your projections of interest from the
community, stem, basically, from your own experiences, from your judgment on the
size of the community, and from some experience that you had selling ads in a
publication, the Des Pardes Times.
4023 Tell me a little about
the Des Pardes Times.
4024 MR. TAMBER: Des Pardes Times is affiliated with our
company. We have been working for
the past several years.
4025 We are in the
market. That is why the South
Asian ‑‑ if you look at the block, it is supporting most of the budget to
this station because we have experience in this market. Our paper is full of ads. The business directory is full of
ads. We are promoting local
talent.
4026 We are in the
community. We know what
advertisements we have in our magazine and in our business
pages.
4027 There is a big demand
for them to come on the FM station, because they want to
advertise ‑‑
4028 I mean, we have a
biweekly paper, which we were going to make into a weekly paper, but with this
FM station coming, these advertisers, if they have a sale going on right away,
where they can't advertise in the paper, they want to advertise on the FM
station.
4029 We have enough
advertisers to cover the cost.
4030 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Bear with me for a very
few basic questions on the Des Pardes Times.
4031 In this section we are
talking about Ms Sandhu as the co‑publisher of the Des Pardes Times business
pages.
4032 How often are the
business pages published?
4033 MR. TAMBER: Once a year.
4034 MS SANDHU: Once a
year.
4035 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: How much does it cost for
a typical advertisement in the Des Pardes Times?
4036 MR. TAMBER: Should I give you the national revenue,
or just the local ethnic revenue?
4037 It averages anywhere
from ‑‑ an average ad in the business directory is $500 to
$1,000.
4038 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: In the business
directory.
4039 MR. TAMBER: In the business
directory.
4040 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: So once a year you have
had the experience that up to 400 businesses have advertised in this directory,
and for the pleasure of that they have paid $400 or $500.
4041 How do you translate
that into the hunger for money that a commercial FM radio station
has?
4042 This isn't a
once‑a‑year event. People have to
be prepared to buy advertising every day of the year, seven days a week, many
times through the day. They have to
support you in a significant way.
4043 I have seen your rate
sheets, and I have seen your projected revenues. You project to be running in the black
Year 1. That is a very optimistic
projection.
4044 We just had the
Pattison Group in front of us, which is one of the most experienced groups of
radio broadcasters in Canada. They
are not big yet, but, boy, they are experienced, and they know their
business. They are not projecting
to get into the black until Year 5.
4045 MR. SIVIA: I would like to give you an example of
our Toronto SCMO.
4046 When we first started,
no one was listening to us, because we had to sell the radio, as you are
aware. But at the very first, at
the beginning, we had more than 50 ‑‑ almost 45 to 50 advertisers who will
pay us to support that kind of programming.
4047 Where, in English
media, the business people only see the advantage, but where the ethnic people
like to help each other.
4048 That is an example that
we had in Toronto, which would be in Calgary. People are still calling us and they are
wondering when the FM station will be on the air.
4049 This is the kind of
response we are getting from the community.
4050 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Let's assume for a
horrible moment that your projections are too optimistic. What will you do to make up a dramatic
shortfall?
4051 Assume just for the
moment the hypothesis that you are dramatically overestimating it, and not
through any fault of your own. You
have given it your best shot. There
is nothing like having all of your community clap you on the back and say: We are behind you. And when the trouble starts, you look
around and you are marching alone.
4052 Every businessman,
somewhere along the line, has had that experience.
4053 What resources do you
have at your command to see you through, say, three or four very bad
years?
4054 MR. SIVIA: We have investors who are ‑‑ you
can see the letters. We have not
too many from our personal investments, but we also have investors who can
support us in case of an emergency, as you explained. But it is most
likely ‑‑
4055 We are 30
percent ‑‑ we projected 30 percent of the revenue, which is very minimum to
collect. I mean, 30 percent ‑‑
and this is where we are going.
4056 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Revenue is one side of
it. The other side, of course,
is ‑‑
4057 MR. SIVIA: Thirty percent of our inventory is sold
out, I meant to say. We are only
selling 30 percent of our radio.
And we have an existing newspaper in the market.
4058 We are known in the
market. People know us. It is very likely not to
happen.
4059 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: I am looking now at your
seven‑year expense projections. It
is, again, part of the same appendices that came in with some of your written
filings.
4060 I am looking at rent,
for example ‑‑ $20,544 for Year 1.
That is roughly $1,700 a month.
Is that realistic for a radio station, with studio space
and ‑‑
4061 MR. SIVIA: The current office that we have in
Edmonton ‑‑ and it's a fair good amount of the unit, and this is the right
price, we figured. We would have a
really good studio and ‑‑
4062 Obviously, we cannot
build an empire, because we are an ethnic ‑‑ small broadcaster. So we have to limit our
budget.
4063 We can't afford big
buildings, compared to something we want to survive
in.
4064 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: As I understand it, the
occupancy rate is so high here in Calgary that there are almost no
vacancies.
4065 I haven't done a
survey, but I don't see a lot of "For Rent" signs hanging in windows when I go
on my lonely walks to try to get over sitting here for eight hours a day. I wonder if my body still
works.
4066 It looks a little low
to me.
4067 MR. SIVIA: We have recently ‑‑ we contacted,
actually ‑‑ these are figures not just off the top of my head. I contacted a person who recently built
a plaza, and they have promised to give us ‑‑ lease out the space that we
require.
4068 It was built by one of
the Indian guys, and he is willing to give us the space for that amount of
money.
4069 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: And it is located
reasonably close to tower space and whatnot?
4070 MR. SIVIA: Could you repeat your
question?
4071 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Let me look at one last
expense, and then I think I will be finished with my
questions.
4072 What I really want to
look at is Canadian Talent Development.
4073 I am not unclear about
what you are doing with the money.
That seems reasonably clear to me.
Strangely enough, I can't figure out how much money it
is.
4074 On the expenses sheet
that we were just speaking about, it is down at $30,000 a year. That is what is expensed, every year,
$30,000, for seven years.
4075 MR. SIVIA: Yes.
4076 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: But at different times in
your written submissions to us, depending on how I read your commitments, it can
be as low as $8,000, or even $12,000 a year.
4077 I am confused as to
precisely what you are committing to absolutely.
4078 MR. SIVIA: We are committing to $30,000 total in
CTD, or 2.5 percent of our total revenue.
That is, pretty much, standard policy. This is the money we have allocated for
our CTD plan.
4079 The reason I
said ‑‑ if you look at the deficiency questions, we said where we are going
to spend that money.
4080 I also want to clarify
one thing. When you initially
started, when you were talking about the music, bringing it from Toronto, the
Watan Music Academy is a standalone, different academy, which is not
affiliated. We don't own any of the
shares ‑‑ or we are not the owner of that academy. But the Watan name is so famous ‑‑
I mean, Watan basically means a country.
4081 I just wanted to
clarify that, that there is a different identity to it.
4082 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: I hope that Mr. Lewis
will agree, and I hope that you will agree.
4083 I think the easiest
thing to do would be for you to give me a list of what exactly you are
committing to and how much you are committing to it, and then we will add it up
at the end.
4084 I want you to keep in
mind that we would expect you to agree to a condition of licence to this. We would like to have what you agree to
as a condition of licence.
4085 I am not trying to push
you to $30,000 or more; I simply want to know what it is, so that we are very,
very clear in our minds about this aspect of your licence.
4086 If you could give me
the list, I will jot it down, and the commitment on numbers. I will jot those down, as
well.
4087 MR. LEWIS: Commissioner Langford, I am looking at a
letter filed on the 17th of October, which is a deficiency response. Unfortunately, it is not numbered, but
it is Item No. 6. So it is six
items in.
4088 If I could run through
the list with you, perhaps that would be helpful.
4089 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: If you don't mind,
because it seems to me that it may have been that document or
another ‑‑
4090 MR. LEWIS: There is another document, as
well.
4091 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:
‑‑ where there was an indication that your clients would commit to it as a
COL.
4092 MR. LEWIS: Yes.
4093 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: So my sense of confusion
deepened.
4094 MR. LEWIS: The original commitment was the
$8,000 ‑‑ the number for Calgary, as the size of market, was $8,000 per
year.
4095 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD:
Right.
4096 MR. LEWIS: Of that $8,000, in the first three
years, $5,000 was for the CAB initiative, and $3,000 was for the ‑‑ I
believe it is the Ontario Ethnic Broadcasters initiative. So that is
$8,000.
4097 Then, over and above
that, there is $22,000, which is in the October 17th document, and that was
broken out ‑‑ $12,100 for the talent contest ‑‑
4098 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Right, and I have the
elements of that. The concert hall,
studio and ‑‑
4099 Right, I have
that.
4100 MR. LEWIS: Then there is $5,000 for the
scholarships, and $4,900 for the advertising of CDs.
4101 Then, over and above
the $22,000 is the $8,000.
4102 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD:
Right.
4103 MR. LEWIS: So that is the
$30,000.
4104 Then, after the third
year, starting in the fourth year, the condition of licence would be the 2.5
percent of revenue or $30,000, whichever is greater.
4105 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: And your clients are
willing to commit to that as a condition of licence?
4106 MR. TAMBER: Yes, we are.
4107 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Thank you very
much.
4108 I am sorry if I sounded
a little thick on that point, but I did get somewhat
confused.
4109 Strangely enough,
usually it is the other way around ‑‑ we are clear on the money, but not
clear on what people are going to do with it. This time we were fairly clear on what
you are going to do with it.
4110 I would like to ask you
another standard question ‑‑ and we ask this of
everyone.
4111 If, in reviewing your
commitment, we find some element that is not acceptable ‑‑ it wouldn't be
the whole thing. Just listening to
you, we know that a good deal of it ‑‑ I mean, committing to the CAB is
always acceptable. But if we found
an element that wasn't acceptable, would you be willing to re‑file another
proposal with the same amount of money?
4112 MR. TAMBER: Yes, we would be.
4113 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Thank you very
much.
4114 Mr. Chairman, those are
my questions of this Applicant.
4115 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr.
Langford.
4116 Madam Del
Val.
4117 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Hello. I have one question on your financial
projections.
4118 On your growth,
year‑to‑year, in the seven‑year plan, I just noticed that you have increases per
year. You go from Year 1 to Year 2,
17 percent, and then you go 20 percent, 17 percent, 12 percent, and 9 percent,
and then, in the last year, you jump to 25 percent.
4119 I am
wondering ‑‑
4120 MR. SIVIA: Are you referring to our revenue
projections?
4121 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Yes.
4122 Usually we have seen a
decline, but this time you go from 17 to 20 to 17 to 12, down to 9, and then up
to 25 in the last year.
4123 MR. SIVIA: The way we calculated this was the
percentage of growth in every year.
4124 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Yes.
4125 MR. SIVIA: If you could give me one second to get
my papers up front with me ‑‑
4126 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Yes.
‑‑‑ Pause /
Pause
4127 MR. SIVIA: If you go to the revenue forecast sheet,
it says that in the first year we will have 30 percent of our inventory, and
then it increases to 35 percent.
4128 It is not 30 percent
of ‑‑ it is just another 5 percent increase in the revenue, and so
on.
4129 If you go to the third
year, it is 42 percent of sold‑out inventory.
4130 This is how we
predicted our revenue, which is a fair amount of growth. From the first year to the second year,
we have 5 percent growth, and from there, if you go to the third year, we have
another 7 percent growth.
4131 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: So you calculate what is your
percentage growth from year to year, then?
4132 MR. SIVIA: For example, the first year to the
second year is 5 percent.
4133 The difference
of ‑‑ you know how 30 percent is the first year. So we would be going another 5 percent
in the second year, and then we would be going up to 42 percent in the third
year.
4134 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: And what are the years
following?
4135 MR. SIVIA: If you could give me a
moment ‑‑
4136 Or we could file
the ‑‑
4137 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: Sure. Why don't you do
that.
4138 MR. SIVIA: Yes. We will file, where it says clearly what
kind of percentage it is growing by every year.
4139 COMMISSIONER DEL
VAL: All right. Please.
4140 Thank
you.
4141 MR. SIVIA: No problem.
4142 THE CHAIRPERSON: If you are making an undertaking to file
material, when could we expect to receive it?
4143 MR. LEWIS: By Friday.
4144 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. That's fine.
4145 Also, Mrs. Duncan would
like to ask a few questions.
4146 COMMISSIONER
DUNCAN: I see that you have, on the
ownership data that I have, three shareholders, and yet you are incorporating a
co‑operative.
4147 I am not familiar with
that business structure. Could you
explain it?
4148 I thought that a
co‑operative was usually owned by all of its members and that it would not have
shares. This must be something
unique to Alberta law maybe.
4149 MR. LEWIS: Commissioner Duncan, I think that the
document you are referring to is a draft document, "Summary of Articles of
Incorporation".
4150 COMMISSIONER
DUNCAN: Actually, what I am looking
at is a document prepared by staff.
4151 MR. LEWIS: Oh, I'm sorry.
4152 COMMISSIONER
DUNCAN: At the outset you were
introduced as a co‑operative.
4153 The document I am
looking at was prepared by staff, but when you were introduced at the outset,
you were introduced as a co‑operative.
4154 When I am looking
through, I see that there are three shareholders. Am I wrong in
that?
4155 MR. LEWIS: There are three
shareholders.
4156 The document that was
filed ‑‑ and I may be mistaken, but I think the intent was ‑‑ in our
October filing for deficiency questions, my clients prepared some articles of
incorporation, in draft, which they obtained from the Alberta government ‑‑
some forms ‑‑ and the intention was a corporation, not a share
corporation.
4157 COMMISSIONER
DUNCAN: All
right.
4158 MR. LEWIS: I am looking at the ownership chart at
2.2 of the application form, and the intent was a share structure company,
rather than a co‑operative.
4159 I don't know where the
word "co‑operative" came from, I'm sorry.
4160 COMMISSIONER
DUNCAN: So that word should be
deleted?
4161 MR. LEWIS: Yes.
4162 COMMISSIONER
DUNCAN: All right. Thank you.
4163 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
4164 Legal
counsel?
4165 MS BENNETT: I have two questions for you. The first one relates to your audience
projections.
4166 In your October 17th,
2005 response to deficiency questions, you set out some audience
projections. I would like to ask if
you could tell the panel how you arrived at the estimates of the percentage of
listening that would come from different age groups.
4167 MR. SIVIA: When we did the statistics for this, we
got the data from Statistics Canada.
They provided us the data, what is the number of people and what
age.
4168 For example, 15 to
24.
4169 And the total ‑‑
what we did was, we totalled up all of the languages ‑‑ major languages
that we would try and target, and then we did the mathematical calculation
of ‑‑ we will be targeting 60 percent of our
audience.
4170 So this is how we came
up to the percentage.
4171 MS BENNETT: I have one further question, which
relates to how you arrived at your percentages of revenue, based on Ukrainian
and other language programming, and Punjabi, Urdu and Hindi language
programming, which were on page 2 of your October 17th
letter.
4172 MR. SIVIA: Are you referring to Question 2 on the
17th of October letter?
4173 MS BENNETT: Yes, it is Question
2.
4174 MR. SIVIA: We have done our ‑‑ from our
internal survey that we did here, we knew what kind of community we are,
especially for the South Asian and Ukrainian ‑‑ what kind of community can
support us ‑‑ what kind of revenue.
4175 For example, in the
South Asian community, a lot of people don't have a place to advertise. So a big portion of that is coming out
of the South Asian community.
4176 There is not much
programming offered to them at the current time, so we went into the community
to see how many people that advertised were ‑‑ because we are already into
the market and we know how many people ‑‑ you know, we have an idea of the
community because, on a daily basis, we are dealing with
them.
4177 This is how we formed
this chart.
4178 MS BENNETT: Thank you very
much.
4179 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
4180 I forgot to ask my
standard question, before asking you to make your wrap‑up.
4181 As you know, we have
heard other applicants, and we will be hearing a few others. Some have been saying that there is
enough room for more than one licence.
4182 In the eventuality that
the Commission were to grant you a licence, which one of the other applicants
could have a negative effect on your business plan; and, if there is one,
why?
4183 MR. TAMBER: The reason our application makes the
best use of the frequency ‑‑ I would like to explain
that.
4184 THE CHAIRPERSON: That is not the
question.
4185 MR. SIVIA: I think that our business plan won't be
affected by any of the English ‑‑ because they don't cater to these
audiences. These audiences are
under‑served, and no one has served these audiences, so they are completely left
alone. We have no competition with
any of the other applicants.
4186 THE CHAIRPERSON: I appreciate your comments. The answer was obvious, but, in all
fairness, since I have been asking all of the other applicants, I thought that I
should ask you.
4187 You seem to be ready to
wrap‑up, so we will hear that now.
4188 MR. TAMBER: Thank you.
4189 We believe that we can
make a significant contribution to this community by serving visible and
linguistic minorities who do not have sufficient access to high‑quality
programming in their own language, and do not currently have a voice on the
air.
4190 Approving our
application would bring a new, independent owner into both the Canadian
broadcasting system and the Calgary market. We will provide a new, independent
editorial source of news and information.
4191 The station will
achieve the objectives of the Commission and the Broadcasting Act by reflecting
the diversity of Calgary's minorities on the air every
day.
4192 We understand that
section 3(d) of the Broadcasting Act places a special priority on broadcasting
which affects multiculturalism and the multicultural nature of Canadian
society. We believe that we meet
that objective.
4193 We have identified in
our community many individuals who are talented broadcasters, who have no role
to play in mainstream English‑language broadcasting in this country. As you have heard today, we will create
an on‑air opportunity for these people.
4194 We commit to the
Commission to be proactive in effecting a balance of men and women in the
staffing of the station and on the air.
4195 We will provide
programming to families, including younger and older members of the communities,
by playing a variety of music, and the music is not duplicative of any of the
other applicants or any other existing
stations.
4196 The station will also
provide educational programming and spoken word, which will allow newly arrived
immigrants, and those who have lived here for some time, to better assimilate
into Canadian society.
4197 Our station will also
tackle the tough issues that affect immigrant communities, including family and
domestic problems.
4198 We know that many
community groups and social agencies have great difficulty getting their message
out to the ethnic communities. The
growing visible minority population of the City of Calgary and its social
agencies will benefit the most from our ethnic station.
4199 We plan to work with
ethnic broadcasters across Canada to promote and expose Canadian
talent.
4200 Performers, not only
South Asian, but from all ethnic communities, are taking their place on the
world stage.
4201 There are market
opportunities, and not only in Canada, where young people buy recordings of
Indo‑Canadian artists. There are
also export opportunities in the U.K., South Asia, the U.S. and other parts of
the world.
4202 Our CTD commitment will
be on‑air play, and we will work to promote the careers of these
artists.
4203 Our station will have
the least impact on existing Calgary stations, and is likely to have no impact
whatsoever on any other applicants before the Commission.
4204 Our application
projects zero national advertisement dollars during the term of the seven‑year
licence. That means that not one
national advertisement dollar would actually be taken from the 15 existing
Calgary radio stations.
4205 The revenue projections
are based firmly on advertisements from retailers who do not use existing media
or would like to propose radio services.
4206 Although we believe
that 92.9 is the best frequency to serve our communities right across the city,
we are confident that, were the Commission to license three or more AM and FM
stations, a frequency could be chosen that would afford adequate services to
generate the revenues we have projected in the
application.
4207 I want to thank you for
a thorough hearing, and I want to thank the Commission Staff, who worked with us
prior to the hearing.
4208 We look forward to your
decision.
4209 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very
much for your presentation.
4210 We will now take a
15‑minute break.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 3:55
p.m.
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 4:15
p.m.
4211 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.
4212 We will move to the
following item.
4213 Madam
Secretary.
4214 MS BOULET: Thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
4215 We are now at Item 8 on
the agenda, which is an application by Rawlco Radio Limited for a licence to
operate an English‑language FM commercial specialty radio programming
undertaking in Calgary.
4216 The new station would
operate on Frequency 100.3 Mhz, Channel 262‑C, with an average effective
radiated power of 19,000 watts, maximum effective radiated power of 100,000
watts, antenna height of 276.5 metres.
4217 Appearing for the
Applicant is Ms Pam Leyland. Ms
Leyland will introduce her colleagues.
She will then have 20 minutes for her presentation.
PRESENTATION /
PRÉSENTATION
4218 MS LEYLAND: Thank you. Good afternoon, Mr. Arpin, Mr. Williams,
Ms Del Val, Ms Duncan, Mr. Langford and Commission Staff. My name is Pam Leyland. I am President of Rawlco
Radio.
4219 I am proud to run 12
radio stations in Saskatchewan, and our newest baby, Magic 99, in
Edmonton.
4220 It is an honour to be
here applying for Calgary's ‑‑ in fact Canada's ‑‑ first and only
acoustic‑based folk radio station.
We are proud to present you with a unique, innovative application, one
that will provide a distinctive listening choice for Calgary and will give the
wonderful folk community here an unparalleled opportunity.
4221 Our station will give a
voice to Canada's music ‑‑ folk music.
4222 Allow me to take a
moment to introduce you to the members of our panel applying for Folk 100, or,
if I could put it another way, it is time to "meet the
folkers".
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4223 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: I would say that you got
away with it, but just.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4224 MS LEYLAND: I was very careful on the
pronunciation.
4225 I would like to say
that the biggest challenge I have running Rawlco Radio is seated to my left,
Gordon Rawlinson, CEO of Rawlco.
4226 Rawlco was started by
Gordon and Doug's late father, E.A. (Ed) Rawlinson. I am very pleased that we have with us
E.A.'s grandson, Gordon's son, Edward Rawlinson. Edward is standing beside me, and to my
right.
4227 With Edward is "Mr.
Indispensable", the guy who makes dealing with Gord a little bit easier, Gord's
assistant, Bob Young.
4228 On my immediate right
is Doug Pringle, our Director of Program Development. There will be more on Doug after I
introduce the other members of our panel.
4229 Next to Doug is Neil
MacGonigill. Neil has a long
history in the music business. He
has worked for major record labels, including London Records, Warner Brothers
and A&M. He was K.D. Lang's
tour manager, he managed Ian Tyson, and played a key role in developing the
carriers of Jan Arden and Paul Brant.
4230 Neil currently owns an
independent label here in Calgary called "Indelible Music", which has released
nine CDs over the last four years.
4231 Neil is appearing with
us today because, if our application is successful, he will become the executive
producer of our major Canadian Talent Development initiative, Project
10K20.
4232 Next to Gordon, on my
left, is Don Armstrong. Army was
the project manager for 10K20 in Edmonton.
He has totally immersed himself in Calgary's vibrant folk music scene,
and, if our application is approved, will be responsible for 10K20 right here in
his hometown.
4233 Next to Don is Johanna
Sillanpaa. Johanna graduated from
the music program at Grant MacEwan College and the jazz vocal workshop at the
Banff School of Fine Arts. She has
performed in numerous clubs and concerts, not only here in North America, but
also in Europe.
4234 Johanna participated in
Project 10K20 in Edmonton. In all
our years of doing Canadian Talent Development projects, we have never seen a
program this successful.
4235 If I could draw your
attention to the graphic on my right, Johanna's CD "Goodlife" is there, in the
second row, on the far right.
4236 One reviewer said of
her CD: "Outstanding. Soulful. Smooth. The best thing I could say is, `Check it
out for yourself'."
4237 Behind me is Dave
Babcock, a professional, first‑call sax player. Prior to the hearing in Edmonton, we had
Dave test our Project 10K20 concept by making a CD, and now tracks from that CD
are in rotation on our station.
4238 Dave is also the
executive producer of Project 10K20.
He works closely with all of the artists to make sure their CDs are the
best they can possibly be.
4239 The final result is the
20 CDs you see on our graphic. I
believe, in each and every case, that the artists are very pleased and proud of
the music they produced.
4240 Next to Dave is Doug
Rawlinson, the Executive Vice President of Rawlco. Doug Rawlinson and Doug Pringle are the
programming gurus of Rawlco. We
call them "The Doug and Doug Show".
4241 Beside Doug is Bruce
Cameron, the President of Cameron Strategy. His firm did our
research.
4242 In introducing Bruce, I
have to tell you a funny story. We
met with Bruce and mentioned that we wanted to research Folk music. Bruce let us go on for about ten minutes
before he finally said, "There are some things that you should know about
me. First, I'm on the board of the
Calgary Folk Music Festival.
Second, I play in a Folk Group called Swamp Donkey. And third, my firm has done extensive
research on the kind of people who go to the Folk
Festival."
4243 Well, talk about
hitting the jackpot.
4244 So Bruce is here today
wearing at least three hats.
4245 First, he can talk
about our market research. Second,
he knows a great deal about the Folk Festival. And third, he is intimately involved
with Calgary's Folk music scene.
4246 Finally, I would like
to say a few more words about Doug Pringle.
4247 Doug was one of the
inspirations for this Folk music application. Doug's roots in Folk music go right back
to its heyday in the tumultuous sixties.
At that time Doug pioneered the progressive Rock format in Canada at
CHOM‑FM in Montreal. This is the
time when Folk music was the conscience of the world, when its lyrics expressed
such core values as equality of the sexes, the fight against racism, concern for
the environment and of course anger about fighting the wrong war ‑‑ core
values that resonate to this day.
4248 I now want to ask Doug
to tell you a story. It is the
story of Canada's music, Folk music, how it was given wings in the late sixties
on FM radio but how it fell victim to the evolution of FM, to the point where
today we find ourselves in a very unique position.
4249 This incredibly rich
genre of music, both classic and contemporary, is without a home on radio in
Canada. I believe that you will
become convinced that now is the time, and Calgary is the place, to once again
give Folk music its rightful spot on the FM dial.
4250 MR. PRINGLE: The story of Folk and acoustic music on
FM radio on the dial here in Canada really started with progressive Rock radio
back in the sixties. Up until then,
all popular music was on AM.
4251 The recognition that
many new artists were not getting played on AM led three adventurous
stations ‑‑ CHUM‑FM in Toronto, CHOM‑FM in Montreal and CFOX in
Vancouver ‑‑ to try a new kind of radio. And it was called Progressive
Rock.
4252 The words Progressive
Rock suggest that this was a Rock format.
Well, in actual fact, that is not true. The word "progressive" was more
important than the word "Rock". It
included Rock, but it also included a lot of other kinds of music ‑‑
acoustic music, some R&B and some totally weird offbeat stuff like Ravi
Shankar's Raga.
4253 But at its heart, the
format was a blending of Folk music and Rock
music.
4254 The acoustic stars were
just as big as the Rock stars. A
brand new Bob Dylan or Gordon Lightfoot album was just as big as the latest Led
Zeppelin.
4255 But it was the Folk
music of the day that contained the lyrics that changed the world. The power of the lyrics was entirely
carried by the acoustic acts ‑‑ from Bob Dylan to Crosby Stills and
Nash. They were the artists that
really mattered.
4256 In the early years of
Progressive Rock radio, the seminal moment was the Woodstock Festival. Of course, Woodstock became known as the
granddaddy of all Rock festivals.
There is just one slight problem ‑‑ Woodstock wasn't a Rock
festival.
4257 What it was was based
in Progressive Rock. Half of the
acts on Woodstock on the bill were Folk acts. In fact, on the first day of Woodstock
there were 11 acts on the bill and every single one of them, with one exception,
was a Folk act.
4258 Richie Havens opened
up; Country Joe was second; John Sebastian was third; The Incredible String
Band, fourth; Sweetwater, fifth; Burt Summer, sixth; Tim Harden was seventh;
Melanie was ninth; Arlo Guthrie was tenth; and Joan Baez closed the day's
program. A complete day of Folk
music to open the Woodstock Festival.
4259 Looking back on
Woodstock, people tend to remember Jimmie Hendricks and the Who smashing their
guitars and feel that was the big deal.
The headliners actually for Woodstock were acoustic Folk‑based acts:
Crosby Stills and Nash. They were
the headliners of the Festival.
4260 So this raises the
question: If Folk was such a big
deal back then, why do we have numerous Rock formats but no acoustic formats
today?
4261 Well, a funny thing
happened in the evolution of FM radio.
It became apparent in the early seventies that there was a demand for
formats with softer music than Rock.
And many wanted formats where you could put it on and listen to it in the
background.
4262 And Folk musically
honestly doesn't fit in the background.
It's just not background. It
demands your attention. It's the
kind of music that demands that you listen to the lyrics.
4263 At that time the
Progressive Rock format got more into Rock. In this much harder Rock format, Folk
didn't fit there either. Folk was
left without a home.
4264 There should have been
two different formats that came from the two primary kinds of music that made up
Progressive Rock. There should have
been a Rock format and there should have been a Folk format. Instead of there being a Folk format,
however, it became Soft Pop.
4265 As we move through the
seventies, eighties and nineties, right up until today, we see that the Rock
format has split into several different kinds of Rock, and the soft format into
several different kinds of Pop.
4266 What has completely
been lost are the founders of soft music, the Folk artists. They have really been without a home on
the radio and yet they are a big part of the reason FM radio is so successful
today.
4267 MR. MacGONIGILL: Advances in technology were another
factor making it difficult for Folk artists. The first sound systems were atrocious,
but over time they got better and better.
Like every new technology that comes along, people embrace it and then
begin overusing it.
4268 Amplified sound came
into its own at live concerts. As
the crowds got bigger and bigger, there was a demand for bands to get louder and
louder. Loudness was one battle
that the acoustic artists could never win.
Some acoustic groups, like the Byrds, went with the flow and morphed into
amplified Rock bands. Those that
didn't were left in the dust.
4269 MR. PRINGLE: So what happened to the Folk artists who
stayed true to their music? Did
Folk basically just kind of die, like Disco and Urban
Cowboy?
4270 By every measure, Folk
probably should have died right then and there. They were totally shut out by
radio. They couldn't compete with
the monster speakers used by the Rock groups in live concerts. That should have been the
end.
4271 Defying logic, Folk
music didn't die. It went
underground. The Folk artists
literally wouldn't let it die.
4272 The commitment to being
a singer/song writer with real music and something to say was just too
strong. Radio ignored them and
later MTV also ignored them, but it didn't matter. The special thrill that comes through
really bonding with a rapt audience sustained them.
4273 They may have lost
their mass audience, but they never lost their true
audience.
4274 To understand why Folk
music didn't die, you have to understand the audience for the music. They certainly noticed when radio
stopped playing their music and they didn't like it. Nor were they happy with the lightweight
Soft Pop that took its place. They
wanted real music with real lyrics that meant something to them. The more difficult the mass media made
it for them to hear this kind of music, the more passionate they
became.
4275 Disproportionately,
Canadian Folk singers stayed true to their music. You started with Gordon Lightfoot, Joni
Mitchell, Buffy Sainte‑Marie, Leonard Cohen, Ian and Sylvia, on through Bruce
Cockburn, and on and on it goes.
4276 Those names are
international music icons. The
amazing thing is that nowhere today in Canada can you hear these artists on the
radio. They are living legends and
yet they get virtually no airplay.
4277 If these are the
legends, what about the new artists?
4278 Well, thanks to that
passionate audience, Folk musicians in Canada are alive and well. They may not be exactly thriving, but
they are certainly making a living.
They are not as recognized as their talent warrants, because there is no
radio exposure. And even those that
get a little bit are not nearly as big as they should
be.
4279 So what is happening
right now in 2006?
4280 A pretty good example
would be the Maritime band from Newfoundland, Great Big Sea. Great Big Sea have had two or three hits
and they have been played on the radio, but to get airplay they have to
"rock‑up" their Folk sound.
4281 Despite this, of their
nine CDs, one went gold, eight went platinum or multi‑platinum, and in total
they have sold in the region of two million CDs in Canada.
4282 Clearly, there is
something wrong with this picture.
If they are selling that many CDs, why aren't they getting the kind of
airplay accorded Bryan Adams and Shania Twain?
4283 And if they are only
getting minimal airplay, how do they continue to manage to sell two million CDs
in this country? And if they were
getting airplay, how many CDs would they sell?
4284 Looking
internationally, I would like to talk a little bit about a guy called Jack
Johnson. "Jack who", you might
ask. Well, he is an acoustic guitar
player from Hawaii. He's a cool
dude. He's an ex‑surfer. Anyway, he gets virtually no radio play
and has had no hit single, and in spite of that has sold millions of CDs
worldwide.
4285 In Canada, his first CD
went gold; his second went platinum; his third double platinum. His latest, that was released last week,
debuted in Canada at number one on the CD sales charts. And I just heard earlier today it is
going to be number one again for the second week.
4286 All of this without
getting any airplay.
4287 It just doesn't make
sense that Jack Johnson, who the public has embraced in Canada to this extent,
cannot be heard on the radio.
4288 The unplugged acoustic
phenomenon is another indication that maybe commercial radio has got it
wrong. It really shows that the
public wants music that doesn't sound completely over‑produced but done in a
pure, acoustic way. The unplugged
phenomenon is huge, and there are probably more 50 major artists now who have
put out unplugged albums.
4289 Because they are
acoustic, they obviously get minimal airplay.
4290 It's a sad fact that a
kind of music that was largely responsible for all the different FM formats that
we know today no longer has any place on the radio. Through all these years, the Folk
audience has remained true to this music.
They have bought great quantities of it on CD. They support it whenever it comes and
plays live.
4291 And this in spite of
the fact that 99 percent of it is absolutely unavailable on the
radio.
4292 MR. MacGONIGILL: Calgary is a real centre for Folk music
artists in Canada. I know these
artists because I work with them every day.
4293 I manage Karla
Anderson, who was recently named the best new artist at the inaugural Canadian
Folk Music Awards. Karla has great
talent. She has great songs, but of
course if you only listen to commercial radio you haven't heard
her.
4294 I too think commercial
radio has got it wrong, and let me tell you why.
4295 The American hit TV
show "Joan of Arcadia" used just 15 seconds of Karla's song "What Else Can I Do"
and that was enough to capture the hearts of the viewers. Following the show, Karla received
hundreds of e‑mails asking where they could buy the
CD.
4296 In fact, we knew when
this show aired in different countries because the day after the show she would
be bombarded by e‑mails from countries around the world.
4297 We have numerous
outstanding acoustic artists in our area:
Chad VanGaalen, a bright new artists on the Folk scene; Amos Garrett;
David Wilkie; and Denise Withnell ‑‑ to name a few.
4298 Because their music is
acoustic, they get no airplay on commercial radio.
4299 MR. ARMSTRONG: Almost exactly one year ago, we launched
Project 10K20 in Edmonton. This was
a program under which we funded 20 artists or groups with $10,000 each to help
them make a CD.
4300 As at our sign on, all
20 projects were fully funded and have been completed. One group, Bomba, has sold out their
initial run of 2,000 pressings and has ordered a second run. All of the artists have received airplay
on Magic 99.
4301 And here's what some of
these artists have had to say about 10K20.
4302 Sheri Somerville
said:
"Since the release
of my Rawlco‑funded CD, I have heard two of my songs played every single day on
Magic 99."
4303 A young artist, Brett
Miles, said:
"Project 10K20 has
allowed me to fulfil a musical goal and a vision that I have had for years, but
I just couldn't afford to realize..."
4304 Sandy Foster reports
that her CD (Marooned) has:
"... been well
received on a national level and is making its way internationally as
well."
4305 Mike Lent, who has been
a professional, fulltime musician for 25 years, writes:
"... as a musician,
producer, engineer and studio owner working on several 10K20 projects, I have
been fortunate enough to be able to take my craft to a different level. We are a stronger musical community
because Rawlco Radio has found a home in
Edmonton."
4306 We believe that 10K20
is proving to be the most successful Canadian Talent Development initiative ever
undertaken in Canadian radio, and with our first year's production we have been
told that we are probably one of the biggest recording labels in North
America.
4307 MS SILLANPAA: I am a jazz artist who has greatly
benefited from Project 10K20. It
was a wonderful experience because it allowed me to complete something that I
have had as a goal for many years.
4308 Project 10K20 addresses
the major issues that unsigned artists face, which is getting funding for
recording sessions, as well as getting exposure on the
radio.
4309 My songs are now played
on a daily basis on Magic 99, and since Rawlco sent my CD to the local Smooth
Jazz station here in Calgary, I now hear four songs played here on a regular
basis.
4310 Rawlco's approach will
make a meaningful difference to the lives of Folk artists here in Calgary, just
as it has with mine. It has helped
me to kick‑start my career again, and for that I am forever
grateful.
4311 MR. ARMSTRONG: In addition to 10K20, we have two other
important Canadian Talent Development Initiatives: "Showtime" and "Live at
Five".
4312 Project 10K20,
"Showtime" and "Live at Five" should not be looked upon as three independent
projects but rather as a co‑ordinated approach to Canadian Talent Development
where the whole is greater than the sum of the part.
4313 Let me describe how we
see this working.
4314 A Calgary Folk artist
who has completed a CD through the support of Project 10K20 is then faced with
the challenge of promoting and marketing the finished product. The first step is usually to hold a CD
launch party at a Calgary club.
4315 Prior to the launch
party, we will air their new music on our radio station and invite the artist to
appear on "Live at Five" where we can spotlight the
artist.
4316 Next, we will have the
artist participate in one of our heavily promoted monthly "Showtime"
events. This will further help to
build momentum for CD sales and provide the artist with an additional $2,000
that can be used for marketing and promotion.
4317 Taken together, Project
10K20, "Live at Five" and "Showtime" will give Calgary and area Folk artists a
real opportunity to build their careers.
4318 Folk 100 will also make
a major contribution to a vitally important event in Calgary, the Calgary Folk
Festival.
4319 Attended by 45,000
people each year, the Folk Festival is Calgary's second biggest annual
event.
4320 We will support the
festival with $50,000 annually ‑‑ money which is earmarked to support
Canadian artists appearing at the festival.
4321 MS LEYLAND: Our application is for a specialty
licence for a Folk‑based, acoustic FM station. It would be a first for Calgary and for
Canada. It is a bold and innovative
concept that would give Calgarians a truly different and distinctive choice on
their FM dial.
4322 Because it is so
different, we feel we don't compete with any of the other applicants or existing
stations.
4323 Almost all of the music
we play is not on commercial radio today, and much of this music will be by new
and emerging artists. Our 40
percent Canadian content is much greater than the CRTC minimums. As you know, the minimum for Category 2
is 35 percent, and Category 3 is 10 percent. We are 40
percent.
4324 Our mature and educated
audience will expect, and we will provide, comprehensive news, weather, sports
and community information. The
focus of our spoken word programming will be on music and culture in
Calgary. In every way we will add
real diversity and choice for Calgary.
4325 In closing, I would
just like to highlight what I think are the most important parts of our
application.
4326 I will take a walk over
here to the graphics.
4327 First of all, we will
play many different types of Folk and Folk‑oriented music, from the legends of
Folk like Gordon Lightfoot and Bob Dylan, which will be spice on our radio
station, to the many different forms of contemporary Folk and Folk‑based music
that you see here: Modern Folk,
Bluegrass Folk, Maritime Folk, Aboriginal Folk, just to list a few
examples.
4328 All of these kinds of
Folk and Folk‑based music share these very important characteristics, the three
characteristics that define our music.
4329 First and foremost, we
are acoustic based. Our songs have
meaningful lyrics that demand to be listened to. And perhaps most importantly of all,
virtually none of this music is heard on commercial radio in Calgary
today.
4330 I would also like to
summarize for you our Canadian Talent Development contributions, totalling
$3,186,000 over our licence term.
4331 First and foremost,
Project 10K20 and its complementary programs "Showtime" and "Live at Five". We will make a significant donation to
the Calgary Folk Music Festival to bring in even more Canadian Folk talent. There is also funding for our Canadian
Talent Development Coordinator and to the Women in Media
Foundation.
4332 I believe that Rawlco
Radio is uniquely qualified to launch Folk 100 in Calgary. I am very proud of our tremendous record
of community service.
4333 We have major market
experience and a very experienced management team.
4334 Our owner lives right
here in Calgary and Rawlco always keeps its promises.
4335 I hope you will agree
that Calgary is the ideal market in all of the country for Folk radio. There is a hugely successful Folk
Festival here. Country music is
very popular in Calgary. Calgary
has a booming economy and a very strong, rapidly growing radio advertising
market.
4336 Rawlco Radio is ready
and more than able to launch this new concept, and we are a specialty
applicant.
4337 I hope you agree by the
end of our presentation that now is the time and Calgary is the place for Folk
100.
4338 This concludes our
formal presentation. We look
forward to your questions.
4339 Thank
you.
4340 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Ms
Leyland.
4341 Commissioner Williams
will start with the interrogatory part of your
application.
4342 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Thank you,
Mr. Chairman.
4343 Welcome, Ms Leyland and
Rawlco panellists.
4344 Your presentation was
very thorough and eliminated some of my questions, so hopefully we can finish a
little earlier today. But I still
have quite a few to go through.
4345 I particularly enjoyed
the passionate, historical review of Folk music given by Mr. Pringle in your
opening remarks. That was certainly
worthwhile to listen to.
4346 Where I am going to
start today is we are going to talk a bit about the rationale behind Rawlco's
specialty FM format proposal to blend Category 3, Folk and Folk‑oriented music,
with Category 2, acoustic‑based music, to determine the methodology in how
Rawlco's classifies its Category 3 and how it would assure the Commission it
would operate in compliance with its 30 percent minimum Category 3 music
commitment at all times.
4347 We will spend a bit of
time to define in precise terms who Rawlco is targeting to serve and why the
Rawlco proposal is better than the other competing applicants vying to serve the
45‑plus demographic; and how and why Rawlco feels it can compete for 45‑plus
listeners with the incumbent Calgary stations.
4348 That is the area that
we will cover in the next 10 or 15 minutes or so.
4349 My first question
is: Your proposed specialty FM
format would blend a minimum of 30 percent Category 3, Folk and Folk‑oriented
music, with upwards of 70 percent primarily acoustic‑based Category 2
music.
4350 The proposed music mix
is, for us, a totally new type of commercial format proposal, as you indicated
in your opening remarks.
4351 As an observation, I
note this type of music mix is programmed on the CBC and on many community and
community campus FM stations, albeit within specific programming
blocks.
4352 Why do you feel this
type of music programming would be viable as a fulltime commercial FM format in
general? And more specifically, why
do you feel it would be successful in Calgary?
4353 You have offered some
explanation, but if you could give us a bit more detail behind your rationale to
choose this type of format for this marketplace, that would be very
helpful.
4354 MS LEYLAND: Certainly, Commissioner
Williams.
4355 I really think there
has never been a better time to do something like this than right now. The economy is booming, as everybody has
commented on. The radio advertising
market is growing rapidly.
4356 Calgary has such a
strong Folk music scene, which was a revelation to me coming from Saskatchewan
where it is not the same theme at all.
Calgary's Folk Festival is the second largest outdoor event in Calgary
after the Stampede, which is amazing.
4357 I was very surprised to
hear about the number of clubs in Calgary that bring in live Folk artists as an
indication of the extremely vibrant scene here.
4358 I would like to ask
Neil MacGonigill to tell us more about that.
4359 MR. MacGONIGILL: Calgary has a disproportionate interest
in Folk, acoustic and roots music.
We will touch on the Folk Festival, and we will also touch on commercial
nightclubs presenting acoustic music.
4360 But what makes Calgary
so completely unique is the ten or more subscription‑based Folk clubs: the Calgary Folk Club has been in
existence for 30 years. The
Nickelodeon, the Bow Valley Folk Club, Saturday Night Special, the Rocky
Mountain Folk Club, the Beneath the Arch concert series in Turner Valley, just
to name a few.
4361 These events are held
once or twice a month, Friday nights or Saturday nights, depending on the
club. They are in community halls
and most of them hold in the vicinity of 400 people.
4362 They are
subscription‑based and they are always sold out. Someone almost has to expire before you
can get into these clubs. It's
tough.
4363 They are a gold mine
for touring acoustic artists. They
pay well. They sell CDs like
crazy. And you can come back on a
regular basis.
4364 Another key point is
they do not diminish concert sales.
They are a completely separate situation. Artists like Ruthie Foster can come here
from Texas, as she is next month.
She is going to play two or three folk clubs in
March.
4365 She is coming back in
April and playing a brand new acoustic venue: the Knox United Church. It holds 800‑plus people. They have been doing the odd acoustic
music show there, but they have recently introduced a reserve seating policy and
now, as we speak, there is a great acoustic music series being programmed
there.
4366 Artists like Tom
Russell ‑‑ Tom Russell lives in Texas ‑‑ was here last week. He played two folk clubs, Friday night
and Saturday night, and then he did two shows in a nightclub in Inglewood
District of Calgary called Ironwood.
He did a Sunday afternoon show, sold it out; and he did a Sunday evening
show, sold it out.
4367 Four performances in
three days; four sell‑outs and a ton of CD sales.
4368 Karen Kane and Kevin
Welsh live in Nashville. They come
here on a regular basis and they do great
business.
4369 Many times these clubs
will put developing artists on the bill with the headliners. It is usually someone from the
community, a local artist. It's a
great way for these artists to gain experience and exposure ‑‑ not just
exposure to the audience that they are playing for, but exposure to the artists
that they are opening for. To have
Tom Russell or Ruthie Foster or Karen Kane go back to their home town and talk
about a Karla Anderson that they saw at one of these clubs is just a benefit
that you can't put a price on.
4370 Karla Anderson got an
opportunity to open for a Welsh singer/song writer named Martin Joseph in a folk
club. In that audience that night
was Terry Wickham, the executive producer of the Edmonton Folk Festival. Terry heard Karla, a very new
artist. He immediately hired her
and put her on the Edmonton Folk Festival.
4371 That's the way it
should be.
4372 She went from playing
coffee houses to folk clubs to the Edmonton Folk Festival, and then won the best
new emerging artist award at the Canadian Folk Music
Awards.
4373 That's how it should
work.
4374 All of this with no
commercial airplay.
4375 There is not a city in
North America with the number of clubs and the quality of clubs that we have in
Calgary. That's a
fact.
4376 Let's look at the
commercial nightclub scene for a moment.
4377 Last night, Tuesday
night, my artist Karla Anderson opened for Gordie Sampson at the Ironwood in
Inglewood. Who is Gordie
Sampson?
4378 In the past year
Country superstar Keith Urban has recorded two Gordie Sampson songs. Faith Hill had finished recording her
album when she heard one of Gordie's songs called "Paris". She rebooked the studio and went back in
and recorded "Paris" and added it on her record.
4379 As we sit here, the
number one Country record in America is called "Jesus Take The Wheel". It was recorded by Kerry Underwood. The record has sold between two and
three million copies. The writer of
that song was a little dude from Cape Breton Island named Gordie
Sampson.
4380 Gordie Sampson can't
get arrested in Canada. He can't
get played on the radio. The show
last night was sold out. It was
phenomenal. I don't how many CDs
Gordie sold, but Karla Anderson sold 26 CDs at $20 apiece in an audience of 150
people. The bulk of those people
were couples, so 75 opportunities to sell a CD and she sold 26 of them. It was wonderful.
4381 This morning as you
were probably arriving here in the snow storm, Karla Anderson and Gordie were on
their way in station wagons to Edmonton, as musicians do. They play one night, they get up early
the next morning and they drive in any kind of condition to go to the next
venue.
4382 Tonight that venue is
the Arden Theatre in Edmonton. It
holds 500 people. There will be
400‑plus people there. They will
sell a lot of CDs. They will make
some money. That's doing pretty
good considering they don't get any airplay.
4383 Finally, let me just
say this about the Calgary Folk Festival.
4384 Over the last 25 or 30
years they have had their peaks and valleys. Over the last ten years there have been
no valleys. It's all peaks. It has turned into one of the greatest
venues for acoustic music in this country.
4385 I have fond memories of
Jan Arden, whom I managed for 13 years.
She wanted to play the Calgary festival. It was a goal for her. When she finally did, she was over the
moon. But when she got to do a side
stage workshop with her hero Janis Ian, I'll never forget it: the tears in Jan's
eyes, the tears in the audience's eyes.
She was such a fan favourite and to see this local girl do good and
sitting on the stage with her idol is something that we'll never
forget.
4386 All of this is evidence
of a very significant demand for Folk music in the Calgary
market.
4387 Imagine what would
happen if we had a Folk music station.
4388 MS LEYLAND: Commissioner Williams, if I could, I
would like to ask our musical guy Doug Pringle to speak to why Calgary and why
Folk.
4389 MR. PRINGLE: You know, when I look at music I see
four major genres. I see Rock, I
see Pop, I see Country and I see Folk.
4390 It is incredible to me
that of the four major genres, Folk has no dedicated radio format. Even Jazz has a whole bunch of radio
stations playing Jazz.
4391 On a conservative
level, just doing my little straw poll asking people for every Jazz musician in
Calgary how many Folk musicians there are, the general consensus seems to be
about five times as many.
4392 I did my same little
straw poll across the country, and it worked out about four times as
many.
4393 I believe Folk music is
Canada's music. Musically, we are a
nation of singer/song writers. Some
of the biggest names in the world ‑‑ and I mean anywhere in the world, if
you travel ‑‑ are Canadians. I
think you can go anywhere and ask them if they have heard of Leonard Cohen, if
they have heard of Gordon Lightfoot, if they have heard of Joni Mitchell. These are internationally known
artists.
4394 And yet in their very
own country, with the huge interest that we have in this nation for singer/song
writers, there is no Folk format.
4395 To me, it almost feels
like a no‑brainer. It's not a
no‑brainer because obviously there isn't one.
4396 But when I look at,
first of all, the legendary music that has already been made, is already part of
the Folk catalogue, and then we hear about the contemporary artists, a Canadian
whose songs have been recorded at that level internationally, that is
incredible. When that happens, the
names usually are Shania Twain or Bryan Adams or Celine
Dion.
4397 A songwriter who can
achieve a similar kind of world renown at that absolute peak level ‑‑ you
are playing in the absolute big leagues here ‑‑ and yet can't get played on
the radio in Canada.
4398 He is fabulous. I was at the show last night. The guy is amazing. He is incredible. He's driving through a snow storm. He's not even flying to
Edmonton.
4399 If you are asking why
Folk, it's for the same reason that there always needs to be radio. If the quality of music is there in
depth ‑‑ and it is ‑‑ and the audience is there, it's a natural
marriage.
4400 In this market
particularly, we've got both the quality and the quantity of artists, and we've
certainly got the audience.
4401 As you can tell, I feel
a little strongly about this. I
love this music.
4402 When I started off in
radio, I was playing this music. It
was the best part of what I was playing on the radio. It's what I liked the most. I am not saying I didn't like Zeppelin
and Floyd and all those guys; I did.
4403 But I loved the Folk
artists because they were speaking to me.
They got me right here in my heart.
I was rockin to the rockers, but where I live, that's where these guys
get you. We need more of that in
music.
4404 I don't know if I
answered your question or not. I
was rambling.
4405 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: I think you have given us
a thorough answer there.
4406 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Commissioner Williams, we
are putting Mr. Pringle down on the "undecided" category.
‑‑‑
Laughter
4407 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Ms Leyland, as a
specialty FM format, you have committed to draw no less than 30 percent of your
weekly music from sub‑Category 32 Folk and Folk‑oriented.
4408 This of course
represents the minimum Category 3 commitment required as a specialty
FM.
4409 Under this I note that
you could program up to 70 percent of Category 2 music if you
wished.
4410 If you believe this
format will be viable over the medium and long term, why have you opted for the
minimum Category 3 commitment rather than let's say a higher commitment of 50 or
60 percent?
4411 MS LEYLAND: I wish I was a musical expert, but I
confess I'm not. I am going to give
this back to Mr. Pringle.
4412 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: I will just give a little
bit more and then you can maybe give a full answer, as you did
before.
4413 A minimum 30 percent
Category 3 commitment and upwards of 70 percent Category 2 music commitment
affords you a fair degree of programming flexibility. To perhaps alter your music mix into
something other than what we are talking about today, what assurance can you
give us that you would remain true to your format commitment should you not
garner the audience levels projected in the short, medium or longer
term?
4414 It's two
questions.
4415 Why are you just doing
the minimum and will you stay the course?
4416 MR. PRINGLE: Maybe I can answer
that.
4417 As much as I love Folk
music, it's acoustic music that I'm really totally in love with. And I think it's unnatural to start
putting precise definitions on music.
4418 First of all, you
can't. There is no musician in the
world who has ever made something as something. They make music and then we put all this
music in boxes.
4419 The difference between
CRTC definition Category 3.32 Folk music and I believe a lot of acoustic
oriented Category 2 is either non‑existent or so finely different that it would
be almost impossible to tell.
4420 I think if you played
this mix of music that I submitted here to the general punter out there who just
likes music, they would say it is 100 percent Folk music, because it all
sounds like Folk music.
4421 The difference is, of
course, that some of it may not technically meet the
standard.
4422 So what I have done
here is when I have categorized some as Folk and some as Acoustic Category 2, I
bet you 80 percent of what I categorized as Acoustic Category 2 I could equally
well have categorized as Folk.
4423 What I did was, if
there was any doubt at all, I put it in as Acoustic 2. It makes no difference if you are
playing the whole mix on the radio.
4424 What we are looking for
is a radio station that is totally acoustic. Whether it is technically Folk or it is
Acoustic Category 2, the public can't tell the difference.
4425 That is why we have
split the hundred up into those two different areas.
4426 In this hundred, for
example, 53 percent is Category 3 Folk and 43 percent is Acoustic 2. In other words, 96 percent ‑‑ well,
96 of 100 songs are acoustic, and it all sounds like Folk.
4427 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Mr. Williams, the other thing I would
say is that we are always in compliance and we want to make sure we are in
compliance. Because of this
difficulty with the definition, we thought that 30 percent was something we
could do for sure and then some.
4428 I think we have made it
clear the type of radio station we will be. But because of the fineness of the
difficulty of defining, we thought let's say as a minimum 30 percent. Then we know we will always be in
compliance because it is our intention to play a significant amount
more.
4429 That was our plan. That is the reason why we did
that.
4430 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: How exactly do you
classify whether it is Category 2 or 3 again? I am not entirely clear on
that.
4431 MR. PRINGLE: I start with the CRTC definition. That's the definition of Folk. But we are going to be a contemporary
station because I also believe to be a successful Folk station, you can't be an
oldies Folk station. You have to be
contemporary.
4432 We are going to be, for
example, 80 percent from the 1990s onward. We are going to be 50 percent from
the 2000s. We are only going to
play 20 percent prior to 1990.
So the legends of Folk are going to be obviously a huge part of the
modern sound, but in terms of how much play they will get, 20 percent is the
most they can get with what is happening today that is going to give this
station power and legs going on into the future.
4433 You have to look at
contemporary Folk and what are its roots when you are defining
it.
4434 There are two main
roots. There is traditional Folk,
which obviously came over with the pioneers from Great Britain. And the chief purveyors of that are
really in the Maritimes. Most of
our Canadian Maritime Folk would have that particular root. It would have the traditional Folk music
root.
4435 The other huge root for
Folk music today is of course the golden age of Folk in the 1960s. We are talking about your Bob Dylans,
your Gordon Lightfoots, your Ian and Sylvias, the legends of Folk, Joni
Mitchell.
4436 I would say that most
of today's singer/song writer Folk singers ‑‑ Karla Anderson would be one,
for example ‑‑ their root is to the golden age of
Folk.
4437 For me to classify
something as Folk, I have to feel that those are the two
roots.
4438 If it's acoustic roots
music, then I think I could categorize that as Folk, but I don't want to. I would rather categorize it as Acoustic
2.
4439 But you could
categorize it and a lot of people, probably most people, would categorize that
music as Folk. It certainly has one
foot in Folk.
4440 For example, Emmylou
Harris, she can't get arrested on Country radio. So why is she called Country? She would probably say that most of what
she does is Folk root stuff. But
she's got the image of being Country, so I have categorized her as Acoustic
2.
4441 For example, Poverty
Plainsmen recently did "America ‑ Sister Golden Hair". That's a Folk song. But they had a Country hit with it, so I
am not going to count that as a Folk song.
I will count it as an Acoustic 2.
4442 So when in doubt, I've
always graded down or up, depending on how you want to look at it, because I
want to make sure that I am in more than compliance. So there is no question at all that at
least 30 percent, in this particular list 53 percent is
Folk.
4443 I want to make sure
that if I am coding something Folk, it's really Folk. And if I have any doubts about it, I
won't code it Folk.
4444 But the one thing that
all the music is going to have in common, it's all going to be acoustic, it's
all going to have meaningful lyrics, and it ain't gonna be played on the radio
elsewhere.
4445 MR. G. RAWLINSON: If I can just throw in one other
comment, that is that I think our track record would show ‑‑ and we
certainly give that commitment again ‑‑ we always keep our
promises.
4446 You asked for what
assurance could you have that we would not stray from our plan. I think that is a strong
assurance.
4447 In addition to
that ‑‑ and I am sure you will get into this ‑‑ all of our financial
projections and our audience projections are done on a very conservative basis
as we know this is innovative, something new. So we have done it on that basis because
of that.
4448 Quite frankly, we think
we can do better than what we have projected in a lot of ways, but we have done
things very conservatively because it is a new thing.
4449 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Thank you both for
that.
4450 Ms Leyland, in your
supplementary brief you suggested that your station would appeal to older
adults, 45‑plus, but also suggested that it would attract some tuning from
younger adults in the 35‑plus age group.
4451 What is the general
demographic age group you expect to attract with your proposed format? And more specifically, what is the core
demographic you would hope to serve?
4452 MS LEYLAND: Actually, I think this radio station is
going to appeal to an incredibly wide range of ages. In part I draw this from our experience
in Edmonton where it is amazing to me the age range of people who say they are
enjoying our new Jazz radio station, from I can say kids in their early twenties
through to people in their sixties.
4453 I think it is not a
demographic. It is going to come
down to: Do you like acoustic‑based
Folk and Folk‑based music?
4454 We always use the term
demographics. That is sort of the
word that has been used many times today.
But in Rawlco we also talk, very importantly, about the psychographic
because not all 45‑year‑olds are created equal, nor all 6‑year‑olds, nor all
20‑year‑olds.
4455 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Yes. We heard yesterday that 50 is the new
35.
4456 MS LEYLAND: Something like
that.
4457 I would like to ask Mr.
Pringle to speak to psychographics.
4458 MR. PRINGLE: Okay. Maybe I can also answer one of the
questions you posed earlier, which is:
How do we compete with some of the easy listening applicants who have
been up here earlier on?
4459 It is a weird bird,
this Folk format, in that it appears to be something and it is actually probably
something else. That is because I
don't think you can define it the way you define Pop and Rock radio: you know, the hard equals young; soft
equals old, that kind of thing. I
don't think you can do that.
4460 In terms of competing
with the easy listening stations, the tempting thing to do is to say: Well, it's soft and they seem to be
saying that they are going to get an older audience. Therefore, I imagine that's going to
come from the easy listening pile ‑‑ not just easy listening, but the
current AC station in town as well.
4461 That's not actually the
case. The reason is because if you
look at radio a different way, instead of looking at it formatically, if you
look at it from the point of view ‑‑ when we talk about radio, it drives me
nuts sometimes.
4462 We always talk about it
from the radio operator's point of view.
The only reason we are doing this is for the people. The only reason we are in business is
because they like what we do, listen to us and then support our
advertisers.
4463 I think we should
always look at it from their point of view and what are their
needs.
4464 There are two main
reasons why people listen to the radio.
4465 One is to be
entertained and to be stimulated.
So as programmers, if we want to attract that audience ‑‑ and
notice, I didn't give a demographic here ‑‑ then we need to put on
programming that is entertaining and
stimulating.
4466 It generally tends to
be newer, harder music. Stations
tend to have names like Hot and Energy.
New music is very important, because that is one of the most stimulating
things that you can give an audience, is exciting new music. The production values on those stations
tend to be exciting, up, great contests, win this, win that, lots of involvement
with local concerts and stuff like that.
4467 If I could take you
inside a music meeting, for example ‑‑
4468 The other thing, by the
way, that I should mention is that if you are programming to that audience, then
what you are really doing is you are programming to people who have put radio in
the foreground of what they are doing at that moment.
4469 In other words, when
they listen to the radio, it is foreground for them. They are actively listening to the
radio.
4470 Again, if I can put you
into a music meeting, there will be a bunch of people and there will be quite a
few records ‑‑ records; not even that, digital files. I much prefer records.
Anyway...
4471 And there will be a lot
of animated discussion. People will
be pretty excited. One will go oh,
yes, there will be somebody championing this to get on the radio, and another
track will go and they will be championing that to get on the radio. Then finally there will be some
decisions made, and usually there will be a couple, maybe even three, tracks
added this week and there will be all kinds of stuff. "Oh, man, I can't wait until we get that
on. People are not going to believe
it when they hear that. The phone
is going to ring off the hook when they year this." Right?
4472 That is the kind of
general energy level that you are dealing with in the foreground radio
station.
4473 The other kind is
people want something to relax to.
Their lives are pretty stressful, for a number of different reasons, and
one of the ways that they can relax is they can come home or they can be in the
office where they are working and they can put on something that is in the
background that is relaxing. It's
smooth. It just feels nice. A lot of people like to use the radio
for that. It's
non‑intrusive.
4474 So as a programmer, it
is our job to program radio that is
non‑intrusive.
4475 For a background
station, which basically is your ACs or your ‑‑ and ACs tend to have names
like soft and light and easy ‑‑ or easy listening stations. The name says it all; it's easy
listening.
4476 A music meeting they
are at would be way more subdued.
There would be way less songs that you are
considering.
4477 Where a song might turn
over in 12 weeks on a foreground station, it might last for almost a year at
high rotation, a big song, on a background station.
4478 The kinds of words you
would hear bandied about are "that will fit very nicely in the mix" and "yeah,
that will work well". It's a much
more clinical approach to putting the music together.
4479 Now, one music isn't
better than the other. There is
great music both ways. But the
needs of the audience are different.
4480 So where does Folk fit
in? It's weird because on one hand
musically it's soft, but its lyrics are loud. You can't put Folk music on in the
background. It will keep sucking
you into the radio to listen to what they are saying.
4481 So it's not background
music. It shares more in common
with the younger formats that are foreground than with the older formats that
are background.
4482 I think in many
respects we are going to repatriate a lot of people who currently are not
listening to the radio because there is no acoustic. The biggest difference, of course,
between the Folk station and all the other stations is the sound. Texturally Folk music sounds as
different or a Folk station will sound as different to an AC or easy listening
station as an AC or easy listening station sounds to a Rock
station.
4483 I guess maybe that was
a long way of getting around to the point that no, I don't think we are in
competition with easy listening or AC stations. I think we are complementary. I think that people come to us for
foreground and to be stimulated.
Lyrically, there is a lot going on in this kind of
music.
4484 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: I think our Chairman has
a question for you.
4485 THE CHAIRPERSON: My question is now that we have heard
the programming people, the music people, I want to move to the next office, of
the national sales director.
4486 What type of
demographic will he be targeting?
4487 I am sure that he will
not have the same passion that you have.
He will be much more to the ground.
He will say well, my clients are number crunchers. They need to have a target group. So I need to fork out my pitch. I need to put some numbers on my
pitch.
4488 Which numbers will he
be putting?
4489 MR. PRINGLE: Well, I ‑‑
4490 MS LEYLAND: I would like to say that Gord has been
selling since Marconi, so he would like to answer that
question.
4491 MR. G. RAWLINSON: The research that we did, which is more
specific and number‑oriented, showed that there was a higher proportion of other
people who like Folk in the 45‑to‑65 year old age group. But there were positive responses
from ‑‑ we surveyed from 25‑to‑64 year olds, and there was positive
reaction to all those.
4492 But that is where would
anticipate we will be the strongest.
4493 I must say quite
frankly that we don't think we will be the top‑rated station. In fact, we think we will probably one
of the bottom‑rated stations. So we
don't expect to get a lot of national advertising in any event. A lot of it will be out feet on the
street, generating sales.
4494 THE CHAIRPERSON: There are also local sales offices and
obviously they also use the same methodology as the national
reps.
4495 MR. G. RAWLINSON: They do. About half the business in radio
business in Calgary is generated through local advertising
agencies.
4496 But again, that won't
be our strength because we won't be one of the top stations and the agencies
tend to buy top stations; another reason why we are projecting not very
significant revenues in this radio station. In general a couple of million dollars a
year is not very much in this kind of market. We can generate that with no business
from any advertising agencies. We
will get some agency business.
4497 MS LEYLAND: If I can add to that, we would draw on
our experience in Saskatchewan and also in Edmonton when it comes to working
with local clients here in Calgary.
In Saskatchewan we have our news/talk radio stations which are not
top‑rated radio stations, but there is an excellent quality of programming and a
quality audience.
4498 And in Edmonton,
similarly, we will not be a top‑rated FM station but we are attracting a quality
audience.
4499 So it is talking to the
advertiser about the kind of person that is listening to the radio station and
building the case from there as opposed to using numbers.
4500 MR. G. RAWLINSON: If I can add one more thing, that is the
difference between foreground listening and background listening, it is a sales
technique that we use a lot when we are selling on behalf of our news talk
stations and also we will use on this station. And that is that when you are listening
to the radio in the foreground, you hear the commercials. When it is background, you don't hear
them as much.
4501 So it is a very
effective way to advertise. As a
result, we can get a higher rate than we would with the same level of audience
with a background type station.
4502 We have done that in
many markets over many situations.
4503 THE CHAIRPERSON: Say for a straight ‑‑and I
appreciate all the nuances that you have introduced, but you are of the view
that we will be catering more to the 45‑to‑64 demographic. That is what we wanted to
hear.
4504 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Yes.
4505 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right.
4506 Mr.
Williams.
4507 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Of course, you can tell
us some things we don't want to hear as well, but it is probably better the
other way.
4508 Given that your core
market is the 45‑plus adult listener ‑‑ and I appreciate that you have told
us there is the full demographic from I guess 20 to 60. I hope it doesn't all end at 60. So the 45‑to‑60 adult
listener.
4509 Each of the format
proposals of your competing applicants is based on providing a service to what
they have identified as an underserved demographic group. While your format would target the same
general age group, the rationale behind your specialty FM format appears to be
based more on adding musical diversity to the Calgary
market.
4510 Why do you feel that
your format would be the better choice to serve the 45‑plus adult listener in
Calgary as compared to some of the other applicants?
4511 MS LEYLAND: First of all, Commissioner Williams, we
really don't see it as an either/or.
We really believe that we are not competitive with the other
applicants.
4512 Yes, that is
contributing diversity first and foremost.
But I think that is a very, very important aspect of this whole
proceeding.
4513 The others are all some
version Category 2, easy listening, playing either older or newer amplified Pop
or Soft Rock, and we are the only specialty acoustic‑based
applicant.
4514
Gord.
4515 MR. G. RAWLINSON: It is our contention that whether or not
you license an easy listening station in addition to ours, it would make zero
difference to us. We will be so
different that immediately you will know that we are
different.
4516 Our case is based on
the musical diversity and not the demographic diversity.
4517 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: I take your point. That is a good
point.
4518 We have come through
that area. Thank you for helping us
understand it better.
4519 The next MO I am moving
into is local reflection and spoken word.
4520 You have made a
commitment to provide approximately 16 hours of scripted spoken‑word programming
each week. This includes
11‑and‑a‑half hours of news and related surveillance programming, plus
4‑and‑a‑hours of spoken word contained within a number of special feature
programming.
4521 Would you outline your
plans regarding programming staff?
In particular, I would be interested in your staffing plans for the
newsroom in respect to on‑air talent.
4522 MS LEYLAND: Certainly.
4523 We will have 24
full‑time staff, specifically programming staff. We will have a staff of eight, one
person who will be program director, music director ‑‑ music's extremely
important on our station, obviously ‑‑ plus five
announcers.
4524 We will also have two
other positions, two writer/producer positions for putting together the
spoken‑word features that we have outlined.
4525 In the newsroom, we
will have a staff of four, so one news director, who, most likely, will anchor
the news in the morning, plus three other news people.
4526 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Okay. On a daily and weekly basis, how many
hours would you offer live‑to‑air programming?
4527 MS LEYLAND: We will be live from six o'clock in the
morning until midnight.
4528 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: If your application is
approved, do you have any plans to share programming synergies with your Calgary
station and your Edmonton station, or with any of your Saskatchewan
stations? And if there are
synergistic opportunities, could you outline what these would
be?
4529 MS LEYLAND: No. The station will be so different from
anything we have in Saskatchewan or, obviously, in
Edmonton.
4530 MR. G. RAWLINSON: We will have the same
president.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4531 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Yeah. Maybe some shared corporate work, I'm
thinking.
4532 What I'm going to try
and determine with this next question is why Rawlco is proposing a blended
weekly Canadian content calculation.
4533 Over the past two
years, we have heard one or two similar proposals for blended weekly Canadian
content calculations. Our concern
with blended calculations is that it leaves open the possibility that Canadian
selections from either musical content category could be underrepresented and
programmed at a level lower than the minimum weekly regulatory requirement for
35 percent for Category 2 music and 10 percent for Category 3
music.
4534 If we look at your
sample music list that you provided of a hundred selections, as we discussed
earlier, even if some of your Category 3 is reclassified as Category 2,
approximately 37 out of the 100 selections suggested would seem to qualify as
Category 3 music. Of these 37
songs, 18 are Canadian, for a 48 percent Canadian content level. Of the remaining 63 Category 2 songs, 26
would qualify as Canadian selections, for a 41 percent Canadian content level in
Category 2 music.
4535 In light of these
observations, my question is this:
why propose a blended weekly Canadian content calculation when it appears
from your sample music list that you would have no problem meeting either the
minimum 35 percent Category 2 or the minimum 10 percent Category 3 Canadian
content requirement?
4536 MR. G. RAWLINSON: The short answer is because it's so hard
to know to classify whether they are Category 2 or Category
3.
4537 But if I could just
point out something, because I'm proud of this, I think we are going to ‑‑
our application proposes a higher percentage of Canadian music than any other
applicant relative to what the CRTC minimums are. If I can just take you through this
graphic that we just put up ‑‑ and this is on the assumption that we were
playing the bare minimum of 30 percent Category 3, it could higher ‑‑ but
if out of every 100 songs we play, in that example, there would be 70 songs that
would be Category 2 and 30 songs that would be Category 3.
4538 The CRTC Cancon minimum
for each of those types of songs is 35 percent in Category 2 and 10 percent in
Category 3. So to meet the CRTC
minimum, in Category 2 we would have to play 24.5 songs and 3 songs out of
Category 3. That's 70 x 35 equals
24.5 and 30 x 10 percent equals 3, a total of 27.5 songs, and yet our commitment
is 40 percent.
4539 So when you compare
that to an applicant where their minimum is 35 percent and they say they will
play 40 percent, our minimum is 27.5 and we will play 40. If we play a higher percentage of
Category 3, the minimum that we would have to play actually
goes down.
4540 For example, if out of
a hundred songs we played 50 songs of Category 3, because the 30 percent for
Category 3 is a minimum, if we played 50 songs of that and 50 songs of Category
2, the minimum goes down to, I think, 21.5 that we would have to play in total,
and yet we are still going to be 40 percent.
4541 So the more Category 3
we play, the higher we exceed the CRTC minimum, but our commitment is a blended
40 percent, and we just did that because of the uncertainty of what is counted
in Category 3 and what in Category 2.
4542 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Thank
you.
4543 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Does that answer the
question?
4544 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS:
Yes.
4545 COMMISSIONER
LANGFORD: Why do I get the feeling
they were ready for that question?
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4546 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: There's a bit of
anticipation there, I think.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4547 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: There's also a Canadian
content distribution regulation.
This regulation requires licensees to devote 35 percent or more of
Category 2 music broadcast between 6 a.m. and 6 p.m. Monday to Friday to
Canadian selections.
4548 How would you operate
in compliance with this regulation using a blended calculation model that would
also include Category 3 music?
4549 MR. G. RAWLINSON: What we are going to do is we are
prepared to commit that we would be 35 percent 6 a.m. to 6 p.m., regardless of
what type of music it would be. So,
again, that would be substantially in excess of what the minimum would be
because some of that is obviously going to be Category 3.
4550 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Okay. Regarding Category 3 Canadian content
requirements, the regulation states that,
"Category 3
Canadian content must be scheduled in a reasonable manner throughout each
broadcast day". (As
read)
4551 How would your Category
3 Canadian music be scheduled to comply with this
regulation?
4552 MR. G. RAWLINSON: I think it's the same
answer.
4553 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: The same
answer.
4554 MR. G. RAWLINSON: We are prepared to accept a condition of
licence that we would be 35 percent, as well, Category 3, 6 a.m. to 6
p.m.
4555 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Okay. Our staff will make note of that
willingness to accept that as a condition of
licence.
4556 Now, I will work into
the area of Canadian talent development.
In your November 4, 2005 deficiency response, you indicated you would
maintain your $10,000 annual commitment to support the Women in Media
Foundation, should it not qualify as eligible CTD expense, and reduce your
overall annual commitment to Canadian talent development by $10,000 from
$418,000 to $408,000.
4557 Would you be prepared
to accept the $10,000 annual commitment to support the Women in Media Foundation
as a separate condition of licence outside the CTD
funding?
4558 MS LEYLAND: Yes, we would.
4559 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you.
4560 Let's talk about some
of your initiatives. "Live at
Five", I would like to learn a little bit more about your proposed "Live at
Five" initiative. As well as giving
folk and roots artists on‑air exposure, it will also provide you with regular
weekly programming on a fairly consistent
basis.
4561 Perhaps you could
explain to us why this initiative, and the $500 given to artists to perform on
the program, should not be seen as more of a cost of doing business than
CTD. And if the Commission
deems this director to be ineligible of CTD funding, would Rawlco be prepared to
redirect the $50,000 per year to another CTD initiative?
4562 MS LEYLAND: First of all, I will ask Doug Pringle to
talk to you about "Live at Five" and tell you more about the concept. We have done that
before.
4563 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: I'm just going to find my
page ‑‑
4564 MR. PRINGLE: Okay.
4565 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:
‑‑ to just go along with your presentation.
4566 Okay, I'm
ready.
4567 MR. PRINGLE: The basic concept of "Live at Five" is
very simple. The absolute most
exciting way you can hear music is live, yet you hardly ever hear live music on
the radio.
4568 I think there's a good
reason for that. With today's huge
production values for most artists, it's almost impossible for them to come in
and play live. There are maybe a
couple of formats that can happen.
One is country, if they strip themselves right down. Of course, the other is
folk.
4569 When we had our country
station in Toronto, KISS‑FM, we had the biggest acts in country music, including
Garth Brooks, come in and play, play their acoustic guitar live. We also had some of the real up and
coming young Canadian talent, people like Jim Witter and Cassandra Vasic and,
yes, believe it or not, a young Shania Twain, come play "Live at
Five".
4570 I got to be honest, I
stole this idea from myself when I was CHOM, when I used to frequently have folk
singers. When they came through
town, I would have them come on, they would play live. It was incredible, almost every time
they would play live, even though we were playing their music and the tickets
weren't moving, when they played live on the radio it's incredible how often
they were sold out.
4571 But Don has got, yeah,
some more additional information for you about what we going to plan to do
here.
4572 MR. ARMSTRONG: As Doug said, the idea is the artist,
once they get their CD in hand, they want airplay, and we will provide airplay,
but to have the opportunity to play live on the air is a wonderful
experience. Prime time drive, 5
p.m., we will do this twice a week, all year long, and give the artist $500 for
so doing. And $500 for an artist
starting out is a lot of money.
4573 MR. G. RAWLINSON: You were saying: why shouldn't this be counted as a part
of our programming expense? The
fact is that most artists would pay us to get on there, so this is not something
that is considered to be something that ‑‑ I mean, we could do it,
probably, and do it for free. We
are paying them just to help them along and give them some more money to further
their careers, but I think writing a cheque to artists is one of the best things
you can do in Canadian talent development.
4574 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Would you agree with
that, Ms Sillanpaa.
4575 MS SILLANPAA: Yes, I would.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4576 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Have you had the
opportunity to perform live in the Edmonton radio station?
4577 MS SILLANPAA: Not at the Edmonton, no, I haven't, as
of yet.
4578 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Have you at other radio
stations, then?
4579 MS SILLANPAA: I have performed live on CKUA,
yes.
4580 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank
you.
4581 Your CTD commitment
includes funding to underwrite a salary of a CTD coordinator position for seven
years, at a cost of $60,000 per year, or $480,000 over seven
years.
4582 Now, you indicate this
person would have 100 percent involvement and responsibility to oversee your
project 10K20 initiative, the "Showtime" initiative and the "Live at Five"
initiative. This would represent a
total seven‑year budget of $2.286 million.
4583 Okay, while the budget
is substantial, perhaps you could outline in more detail exactly what duties and
responsibilities the CTD coordinator would have in overseeing these various
initiatives? And, of course, should
the Commission decide that the CTD coordinator position does not qualify as
eligible CTD expense, would Rawlco redirect the $480,000 in funding to another
eligible initiative or reduce its overall seven‑year commitment by
$480,000?
4584 MS LEYLAND: A couple of comments, Commissioner
Williams, and then I will ask Don Armstrong to speak to
this.
4585 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS:
Okay.
4586 MS LEYLAND: I'm quite passionate about this
because I have seen how hard two of the people at our panel have worked on
project 10K20 in Edmonton, and programs they are outlining here for Calgary are
even more extensive.
4587 As I mentioned, Don
Armstrong and Dave Babcock, Don is our project manager, and Dave is our
executive producer in Edmonton.
4588 So, Don, over to
you.
4589 MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, first off, with respect to the
Calgary application, there are the two initiatives that you indicated,
"Showtime" and "Live at Five", which do require a fair amount of
organization.
4590 With "Showtime", what
we will be doing there is producing 12 concerts per year in a live local venue,
two artists, two Canadian artists, appearing at each concert, widely promoted on
the air, each participant in the concert would receive $2,000. So it's $4,000, 12 shows a year,
$48,000. There's a lot of
organization to do in that.
4591 As well, you identified
the "Live at Five" initiative, and that would be under the director, as well, in
terms of setting up and arranging for those
artists.
4592 In terms of the
day‑to‑day management of project 10K20, this is huge. Dave Babcock has completed one year of
having done that for us in Edmonton, and he, probably better than I, can tell
you specifically ‑‑ like, I know what he does, but I would like you to hear
him tell you what he does.
4593
Dave.
4594 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Can I just interject for one
thing?
4595 We didn't put this in
our Edmonton application for the station there. We did not put the Canadian talent
coordinator money into our proposals, but we have been paying this money anyway,
because it was just required to do to make it happen. So we know that this is a necessary
expenditure.
4596 But Dave can maybe give
you just a bit more background.
4597 MR. BABCOCK: Yes. As executive producer of the 10K20
project in Edmonton, essentially my role is two‑fold. I act as a full‑time adviser to Rawlco
Radio Limited on all musical aspects, questions and what have
you.
4598 As far as the 10K20
project itself, I'm working with the artists pretty much on a daily, weekly,
monthly basis, from the time their application is approved right to the finish
mastered state of the album, going through all the four phases involved in
recording the album, which are essentially the preproduction, the recording, the
mixing and the mastering, in order to produce a finished master copy, which
eventually goes to Rawlco and to Magic 99, and onto the
air.
4599 Every artist is
different, and there are 20 of them, so this process you go through 20 times,
with each artists, and let me tell you, it kept me hopping big
time.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4600 MR. BABCOCK: So as far as that goes, it's also been
an incredibly positive and enjoyable experience for me and for all the artists
involved. Just inasmuch as a
year‑and‑a‑half ago there would have been nothing on that board, and today, as
you can see, there are 20 finished albums of great music by Edmonton artists. I
would imagine, that it would be the exact same result here in Calgary, should
this application be approved, as well.
4601 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Mr. Babcock, you are an
entertaining artist yourself, are you not?
4602 MR. BABCOCK: That's correct.
4603 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: So if they keep you
hopping, how do you find time to pursue your passion?
4604 MR. BABCOCK: I'm also a
juggler.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4605 Mr. BABCOCK: Yeah, it's been a learning experience
this first year, but, you know, it's all about having passion for what you are
doing. Also working with such a
great team, you know, working with guys like Doug Pringle and John
Armstrong. Everyone at Rawlco has
been so supportive and helpful in every aspect of my duties, so having a great
team on board is key in all of this, as well.
4606 MR. ARMSTRONG: Mr. Williams, if I may just add to that,
Dave mentioned the fact that a year ago that board would have been empty, and we
are very, very proud of the fact that in the year prior to our signing on we
have been able to produce 20 albums like that.
4607 And Dave is a little
modest in actually what he does in it, because if I could just be a little more
specific ‑‑
4608 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS:
Absolutely.
4609 MR. ARMSTRONG: ‑‑
on how we deal with it, we identified artists that we felt possess some talent
and could, with the proper direction, produce an album that might merit
airplay. We invited them to
apply. When that
application ‑‑ with our having the opportunity to observe them or hear some
demo, if that application were approved, I phoned each of them and spent 20 to
40 minutes on the phone, explained how the process would work, how the funding
would be released, how the determination would be made for airplay at the
conclusion of the project, if any, and then we sent them a cheque for $1,000 to
help them with their preproduction.
4610 That cheque was sent to
Dave. Dave sat down with the
artist, gave them the cheque, and then worked on the preproduction: what kind of songs do you want to work
on? Where do you feel you can
produce? What's your strength? Where's your weakness? What do you want to do with
this?
4611 Then, when that phase
was complete, Dave would say to me, "Okay, Army, I think they're ready to go
into the studio", so we would requisition a further $5,000 to help them with
their recording.
4612 He, again, would take
them the cheque, they would acknowledge receipt of it, and Dave would visit them
regularly in the studio, helping them along, and, prior to going in the studio,
would say, "What studio do you plan on using? Do you know how many side musicians you
will need? What about a
producer? What about a graphic
artist? Have you thought the whole
project through?".
4613 As an adviser, he would
help build the budget, help them with their preproduction, and then be with
them, literally, holding hands through the recording phase. And once the recording was complete, we
then sent them $3,000 for mixing and $1,000 for mastering.
4614 I think we were very
pleasantly surprised at the prudent and diligent manner in which all those
artists managed the funds. Not one
artist came up short and said, "You know, I've run out of money. I can't complete my
project".
4615 We think that by Dave's
constant presence, it instilled in them a sense of financial responsibility and
a sense of urgency. In fact, I
hadn't planned on it, but Johanna completed her project in less than six months,
right? From the time we received
your application until the album was complete was six
months.
4616 MS SILLANPAA: Yes.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4617 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Thank
you.
4618 MR. G. RAWLINSON: If I could just throw one quick comment,
you may be getting tired of hearing about Edmonton, because, of course, us
Calgarians, you know, being Calgary Flames fans, we hate Edmonton, but the
reason we keep mentioning that is because we are so proud of this
program.
4619 Of course, we are
proposing the same program here, this 10K20 program, and it's just been wildly
successful. We can now say that we
have a proven, effective Canadian talent program. In fact, it's the best program I have
ever seen in all my years of radio.
So that's why we are referring to this, because we are so excited and we
are so sure that it will be the same thing here.
4620 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Thank
you.
4621 MR. ARMSTRONG: If I may just add one thing, Rawlco is
certainly not short on imagination, and the reason for doing 10K20 in Edmonton
similarly to the way in which it's being done in Edmonton is, as Gord said, I
mean, it just works that well. It's
just terrific.
4622 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Thank you. And your artists have confirmed that on
the record today, as well. So
that's great.
4623 I want to spend a bit
of time clarifying your application's audience share
projections.
4624 We note that deficiency
projections you filed with your November 10, 2005 response indicates no growth
in audience share through the later years of the first licence
term.
4625 Why have you predicted
no growth in the later part of the licence term?
4626 MS LEYLAND: In all cases we project very
conservatively, and say we are here in Alberta. But we project very conservatively, so
therefore the three share.
4627 Yeah, I think there is
more potential than that. I really,
really do. If you haven't heard
something, you don't know if you like it, and I'm confident a lot of people are
going to fall in love with this music that don't even know that they like it at
the present time.
4628 We are always striving
to do better. Gord and I won't be
happy if we are still a three share after seven years. We will be trying to do everything we
can to grow the audience. But our
projections are very conservative.
We want to show to ourselves and to the Commission that at 3 percent
audience share we will be viable.
4629 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS:
Okay.
4630 The study conducted by
Cameron Strategy Inc. notes that,
"Only persons
currently listening to radio were surveyed. In addition, no one over the age of 64
was surveyed". (As
read)
4631 Given the results of
the survey that suggests that interest in folk and roots music tends to increase
with the age of the respondent, do you think that the study may have failed to
measure a potential audience target group, those north of
65?
4632 MS LEYLAND: An interesting question. Quite likely.
4633 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Yeah, it may have.
4634 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: It may
have.
4635 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Yes. Almost all advertising, as Commissioner
Arpin was saying, that focuses on demographics, tends to be ‑‑ in fact,
over half the buyers are 25‑54, so to go to 64 was stretching it from that
demographic world. So that's why we
choose that. But people over 64 buy
things and shop in retail stores, so if we were granted this licence we will
certainly be talking about that, as well.
4636 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Yeah, one applicant was
talking about his father earlier in this hearing actually buying a satellite
radio, so I'm aware that they are still buying a lot of innovative products at
that age.
4637 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Right.
4638 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: By excluding from the
sample persons not currently listening to radio, do you think that the study
could have overlooked a segment of the population who might have expressed an
interest in your proposed format? I
think you mentioned in your presentation a few times that you would hope to
bring people that currently aren't listening back to
radio.
4639 MR. PRINGLE: I don't want to get too excited, but, as
we speak, I think there is a phenomenon beginning to develop at the university
level. The Jack Johnson phenomenon
that we are talking about is almost exclusively being driven by 19‑, 20‑,
21‑year‑olds. I mean, this guy is so cool with them. You know, he's ex‑surfer
dud.
4640 They don't call it
folk. They call it laid back
music. So their folk is kind of,
you know, beards and banjos and stuff.
But there's a whole acoustic little young artist thing that's
happening ‑‑ Jack Johnson, Jason Mraz, John Mayer ‑‑ and it's being
driven by the same demographic that drove the golden age of folk, the Bob Dylans
and the Joni Mitchells. That came
out of the campuses and the universities.
4641 So it's early days yet,
but I think that we might well see ‑‑ because, again, it goes across age
groups. You either like acoustic
music or not, and I don't think it really matters how old you are, and it seems
to be that at the university level there's a lot of people getting into this
acoustic music.
4642 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Of Jack Johnson's four
CDs, I think he's put out ‑‑
4643 MR. PRINGLE: Yeah, yeah.
4644 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:
‑‑ which of the four has enjoyed the most commercial
success.
4645 MR. PRINGLE: None ‑‑ almost none. How do you
quantify?
4646 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Sold the
most.
4647 MR. PRINGLE: Oh, have sold the most. Oh, he has dramatically increased
through word of mouth with each CD.
Like in Canada, the first CD sold gold.
4648 Then, of course, people
playing, talking about it, so when the second CD comes out, there's just more
people aware of it through word of mouth, that went
platinum.
4649 Third CD, again, more
word of mouth, that went double platinum
4650 And then the outrageous
situation of debuting at number one on the Canadian CD sales chart, I mean,
that's just ‑‑ I mean, with no airplay, that's
incredible.
4651 So I have no idea how
many this will sell, but I would imagine it will outdo the third
one.
4652 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Well, I'm personally a
tough sell, but I think you have convinced me to invest in one of them for the
drive back to Edmonton this weekend.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4653 MR. PRINGLE: You will like him. He's great. Get the new one. The new one's the best
one.
4654 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: All right. Thank you.
4655 MS LEYLAND: Commissioner Williams, I wonder if I
could just ask Neil to perhaps tell you a story that I found fascinating about
one of his young artists here, Chad Van Galen.
4656 MR. MacGONIGILL: Chad Van Galen is a very interesting
young cat here in town whose dad is a well‑known artist, Doug Van Galen, so he
comes from a creative family.
4657 Chad holed up in his
bedroom. I don't know if his
parents probably didn't see him for a couple of years, or two or three
years. What he was doing in there
was building instruments out of, I'm not sure, things he had in his
bedroom.
4658 He built a number of
instruments, some conventional, some unconventional, and he learned how to play
them all. While he was doing that
he wrote in the vicinity of 300 songs.
4659 He's also a graphic
artist.
4660 So Chad, in the past
year, completed an album, and he did the package, he played all the instruments,
he recorded it on his dad's vintage gear:
reel‑to‑reel tape recorders, 4‑tracks and bouncing things back and
forth.
4661 Honestly, when you
first hear Chad's record, you think, "What is this?". I mean, it's not Gordon Lightfoot by any
stretch of the imagination.
4662 He sings in a falsetto,
very much like Neil Young. People
compare his vocal to Neil Young and to the early Neil Young
records.
4663 Chad put out his record
independently, sold it through the MegaTune stores here in
town.
4664 It's been on the charts
since the day it was released, and he's started gigging. And if you see Chad Van Galen, you don't
see many people playing a guitar and a drum kit at the same time, but he can do
that, and he does it regularly.
4665 He opened a show for
the Pixies at the university last year and the year‑end poll in the city, from
the city music journalists and music critics and stuff, the favourite
performance by any artist in the past year in this city was Chad Van Galen
opening for the Pixies.
4666 Chad recently signed to
Sub Pop, a Seattle‑based label, a very prestigious major Indie, and he's on tour
in the U.S. as we speak opening shows for hot bands, Canadian bands, Arcade
Fire, and the like, and he's playing the most prestigious clubs in America at
this point in time.
4667 He's a solid
Calgarian. He has absolutely no
intention of leaving here. He
should be heard. He's amazing. His records are blowing people's
minds. The reviews, if you go on
the Internet and google Chad Van Galen, you will be blow away by the reviews
that are coming in from this kid from Calgary.
4668 It's just one of the
success stories in this town.
There's a bunch of them.
4669 So Chad is definitely
not a beards and banjos guy. He's
the new leading edge of folk music.
As Doug was talking earlier about where they draw their inspiration from,
and if you go back and listen to those early Neil Young records, and that ilk,
you know, they are edgy, but they are folk and they are acoustic and they
are ‑‑ really, when I first got his record, I thought, "What is this?", you
know, and now I can't take it out of my CD player. It is phenomenal.
4670 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Geez, you guys are pretty
good. Now I got a CD for my ride
back, too.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4671 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: I want to talk a bit
about your demand study and its effect on deriving your advertising revenue
projections.
4672 Would you please
discuss how you used the results of the study conducted by Cameron Strategy
Incorporated to derive advertising revenue projections consistent with your
projections of audience?
4673 MR. G. RAWLINSON: First of all, the research showed that
we could likely have an even higher audience share than what we are
projecting. In fact, they only way
they were able to ‑‑ when they came up with our final estimate was to say,
"Well, we'll take it in half what the research shows". That's, I think, a pretty pragmatic
thing to do. People will say, "Oh,
yeah, I like that", but will they really become core listeners, I don't know, so
we cut it down to half. So we said
approximately a three share of the audience.
4674 The total revenues in
Calgary, the latest figures we have, and I don't know if you have seen those,
but there's an outfit call Tram that reports them monthly, and it shows that
Calgary's radio revenues are $78 million in the latest 12
months.
4675 Our first‑year
projection of $1.9 million is 2.4 percent of that, and that's based on current
revenues, whereas our $1.9 million would be done, assuming we are licensed and
then get on the air ‑‑ that's a year, a year‑and‑a‑half from now ‑‑
I'm guessing that the revenues for Calgary could be $85 million or $90 million
by that time. So it would be even a
lower percentage.
4676 Going right through to
the seventh year, we are projecting only $3.3 million in revenue. And if the revenues were, say, $90
million, only $90 million seven years from now, which is very conservative,
that's 3.6 percent of the revenues.
4677 So we started with
conservative audience projections, and then we converted those into
ultraconservative revenue projections.
I will not be happy at all if this is all the audience we do or all the
revenue we do. We think we can do
significantly more than that, but this is something new and it's innovative,
it's pioneering, so we thought it prudent to be conservative and careful in
presenting our plans to you so that you could feel confident, if you choose to
license us.
4678 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you, Mr.
Rawlinson.
4679 You indicate on page 11
of your November 4, 2005 response the deficiency questions
that,
"...30 percent, or
approximately $570,000 of your projected year one revenue, will come from
advertisers currently placing ads on other media, such as newspapers and
magazines". (As
read)
4680 What factors did you
take into account arriving at this percentage?
4681 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Mr. Williams, I have to answer this
honestly, and that is that, quite frankly, we think these questions are
impossible to answer.
4682 I have launched radio
stations where we were very experienced in the market and we were adding one
more station to it, and, in hindsight, we had no idea where the money comes
from. It just isn't
possible.
4683 Some advertisers will
tell you, many won't tell you where they have taken it from. On a specific case you can say, "Well, I
know that I got that guy's budget cause he said he wasn't going
to..." ‑‑
4684 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: So it's just a best
guess, then, I guess?
4685 MR. G. RAWLINSON: It's based on our experience and a best
guess. But I think anybody that can
answer this with any precision, I mean, there's just no
way.
4686 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: There's future for them,
right?
4687 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Yeah.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4688 MR. G. RAWLINSON: I would love to meet
them.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4689 MR. G. RAWLINSON: What we are really saying here is that
it will come from a number of different sources. The most important thing about our
revenue projections is that a fair chunk of our revenues, a significant chunk of
our revenues, will come from non‑advertising agency‑type buys. They will be pure retailers that will
buy based on, "Help me get people into my store and...", you
know ‑‑
4690 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS:
Yeah.
4691 MR. G. RAWLINSON:
‑‑ "...if you have got the right demos" ‑‑ and we will have good
demos as far as it be.
4692 Our research shows that
it will be a little higher income, a little better educated audience than the
average person. So that's the best
thing that we can tell you about our revenues.
4693 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you.
4694 Just give me a second
just to refresh myself with this question.
‑‑‑
Pause
4695 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Has Rawlco decided to
explore possible alternative frequency choice, in view of the number of
applications received in the available frequency choices?
4696 MS LEYLAND: Gord will speak to
that.
4697 MR. G. RAWLINSON: When we were searching for a frequency
for this application, we did a lot of work on it. My experience in radio, which goes back
too many years to speak of, is that, in general, the best frequency in the
market goes to the most deserving and best applicant, therefore, it's the best
use of the spectrum.
4698 We picked 100.3 because
it's our contention it is the third best frequency in the market. We did not pick 90.3 or 92.9 because we
thought that those are actually better frequencies. And because we were going to be a
specialty format, a niche station, we felt it was appropriate that we would pick
not the very best frequency. But we
also want to be able to cover the city well, so it's a directional
frequency.
4699 Obviously, we would be
thrilled if we were licensed to be awarded either of the other two, but we are
quite happy with the one we have applied for.
4700 The only other
applicant that has applied for that frequency is an applicant for Airdrie. It's our contention that they may very
well deserve a licence, but to just cover Airdrie does not need much power. So it would be a shame to use a
frequency that can be used for 100,000 watts to cover the city really clearly,
the whole city of Calgary, on Airdrie, where it could be niche frequency, a
frequency that would work for several thousand watts. I believe that their application
proposes an average of 3,600 watts and a maximum of 6,000 watts. So when you get down to a lower power,
there's more options for frequencies, so that's our position on
frequencies.
4701 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you.
4702 Well, Mr. Chair, I
think we have arrived near the end sooner than we thought, which is good,
given the time.
4703 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you, Commissioner
Williams.
4704 We will now ask
Commissioner Langford, who has a few questions.
4705 MR. LANGFORD: I'm almost scared to ask this
question. Somebody put a gag on
Pringle over there ‑‑
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4706 MR. LANGFORD: ‑‑
so we can get out of here for dinner before it's breakfast
time.
4707 MS LEYLAND: If I knew how to gag
Pringle!
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4708 MR. LANGFORD: I like Johanna's laconic approach of yes
and no.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4709 MR. LANGFORD: One observation,
first.
4710 Kind of listening to
Mr. MacGonigill speaking earlier and kind of thinking of Handel, because there's
no more valleys, every valley has become exalted now, it's all peaks and
everything's going great, you are not worried that you are going to wreck it,
are you? I mean, it's doing so
great without any FM radio, you are not worried that somehow you are going to
ruin some magical underground thing that's happening across Canada
here?
4711 MS LEYLAND: I see Neil shaking his head, and I'm
sure he has a thought or two for you, quickly.
4712 MR. MacGONIGILL: By all means we are not going to ruin
it. Just imagine what can happen if
more people hear these artists.
There's some brilliant artists out there.
4713 It's frustrating. I see these artists, brilliant young
artists, working hard and making records, and knowing full well when they make
them that the chances of getting them played on commercial radio is
poor.
4714 No, we have got lots of
room to grow, lots of room to grow.
It's exciting.
4715 MR. LANGFORD: Just that people who like to be kind of
on the outside and into some wonderful thing that they think they have
discovered may not want to blast it all over the place.
4716 MR. MacGONIGILL: You know, what, I'm the king of living
on the outside. I know it very
well. In the early days with Jan Arden we had two mottos: two people can't be wrong and happiness
is a dial tone. And it took
time. It took five years before we
got a deal, and they were five hard years.
4717 The truth of the matter
is, by the time Jan sold 2 million records with the song "Insensitive", it was
more fun in the early days. There
is a change. There's a dynamic
change when you start selling a lot of records, but it's such a struggle. We lose so many of our talented artists
because they just can't afford, financially or emotionally, to stay in this
business long enough to make it.
And the problem is they aren't getting heard by enough
people.
4718 It's not that people
don't like their music, it's just that they don't get an opportunity to hear
it. And we need to do something
about that. We need to let these
people be heard. It's
important.
4719 MS LEYLAND: Commissioner Langford, could I ask Neil
just to share one more story, and it will be quick, and it's about an artist who
we all know by name, Ian Tyson, and your lunch with Ian a couple of weeks
ago.
4720 MR. MacGONIGILL: I used to manage Ian Tyson. You want to talk about a touch
job.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4721 MR. LANGFORD: It could have been Johnny
Cash.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4722 MR. MacGONIGILL: It could have been something easy like
Johnny Cash, yeah.
4723 Ian's a great guy, he's
a proud guy, and I learned a terrific amount from him when I managed him, but it
was difficult. But he and I ‑‑
I don't manage him now, but we are good friends, and we meet and we talk, and he
respects my musical judgement and tastes and
stuff.
4724 But I had lunch with
him a couple of weeks ago. He's
nominated for the best roots album of the year this year. He's 72 years old. He did 70‑plus shows in North America
last year. They all sold
out ‑‑ or the majority of them sold out. He sells a whack of records at those
shows.
4725 I remember one time
when Ian travelled with a drummer ‑‑ he doesn't any more ‑‑ when they
sold merchandise the drummer would take the case that holds the kick drum and he
would put it behind him and he would be selling CDs and throwing money in the
kick drum, he had to get in the kick drum and stomp the money down because they
were selling so many CDs.
4726 That being said, Ian
gets frustrated. Every time he
makes a record, he says, "This is the last record I'm every going to make
because nobody plays them". Nobody
plays them.
4727 This newest record,
"Songs from the Gravel Road" is incredible. He's getting better. He's wise and he's extremely well read
and he's literate and he makes these records that are intelligent, and people
need to hear them and they are just not hearing them unless they go ‑‑ if
you want a treat, go out to the East Longview Hall, in October, when Ian does
four nights in a row there, and watch the people that come there. It's amazing. It's an amazing event. And there's no reason that Ian Tyson
shouldn't be played on the radio.
4728 MR. LANGFORD: Thank
you.
4729 Now, I have one other
question of fact, and then I will be finished. It's been a long day, and I apologize,
but I really do need an answer to this.
I think it's essential to your presentation and I don't understand it, so
I need some help with it.
4730 You talk about folk,
and the word "folk" is everything ‑‑ and we had Ms Leyland's interesting
play on words at the very outset, and I won't try to repeat it, it's too late
and I'm too tired and I will blow it for sure ‑‑ so the word "folk" is
everywhere, but when you really get to discussing it, this acoustic‑based
moniker keeps coming up, and I'm having trouble understanding what that
is.
4731 I mean, it's very easy
to understand a young Bob Dylan with a guitar standing alone on stage. That's acoustic‑based. I can get that. But how far can you push
acoustic‑based? I mean, if Mr.
Dylan then has someone with an electrified bass behind him, has he lost
it?
4732 So can you give me some
help about how pure this word "acoustic" is when it's used as an
adjective.
4733 MS LEYLAND: I'm sorry to do this to you, but I need
to go to Pringle, and then perhaps Neil, who books these acoustic
artists ‑‑
4734 MR. LANGFORD: I'm worried about Pringle, because you
know what they say, if you can remember Woodstock, you weren't
there ‑‑
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4735 MR. LANGFORD: ‑‑
and so I don't know how much value to put on what he's telling me
here.
4736 MS LEYLAND: Yes. But you will notice he doesn't speak in
detail about what he was doing at Woodstock.
4737 MR. PRINGLE: No, I won't tell you about what I was
doing at Woodstock.
4738 You are right. You are absolutely right. It's very hard to define music. Not for the public. I think for them, an acoustic‑based,
that's folk music, right? But I
think, you know, when they get down into these situations, it is difficult to
define it.
4739 MR. LANGFORD: Would you allow me to interrupt for one
second, just so we don't go on.
4740 What I need ‑‑ I'm
not doing this just for my own edification ‑‑ and I do want you to go
on ‑‑ I'm worried about what you can include ‑‑ what your playlist
will look like. So let me give you
just an insane example to really help you straighten me out on
this.
4741 If Frank
Sinatra ‑‑
4742 MR. PRINGLE: Could I jump in and say, "No, we
wouldn't play the first half of "Stairway to Heaven", the acoustic
part!
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4743 MR. LANGFORD: If Frank Sinatra is singing ‑‑
well, were singing ‑‑ if we had an old Frank Sinatra record with an entire
orchestra behind him, none of which was electrified, is that
acoustic‑based?
4744 MR. PRINGLE: Oh, no ‑‑
4745 MR. LANGFORD: This is where I'm
having ‑‑
4746 MR. PRINGLE: ‑‑
no, I'm sorry, no, no, that's not what we mean ‑‑
4747 MR. LANGFORD: There's the range, Bob Dylan with a
guitar, Frank Sinatra with an entire orchestra, Bob Dylan with a bass
player. I just need some sense of
the way that works.
4748 MR. PRINGLE: Okay. The real cutoff point is when it starts
sounding silly on the radio. I
mean, if your basis is ‑‑ you know, when we are talking acoustic, we really
mean acoustic guitar is at the heart of
everything.
4749 I mean, by all means,
there are other acoustic instruments, for example Chad Van Galen has got
probably a whole bunch that he made, right, but, I mean, the acoustic guitar is
at the base. Probably the acoustic
piano, not the keyboard but the acoustic piano, would be the secondary. So that's the kind of thing that's got
to fit.
4750 And if you are going to
do a format, everything's got to fit.
If it doesn't fit, it's just a mess. So, you know, when we are saying
"acoustic‑based", we are really meaning 90 percent of the time it's going to be
acoustic guitar based.
4751 MR. LANGFORD: But if, heaven forbid ‑‑say we love
what you are telling us, and we worry about Ian and we want these people to get
some airtime, so we license you and, heaven forbid, it doesn't go well, it just
doesn't, for some reason it doesn't, and now you have got some room in that
Category 2, a lot of room, where can you go? Can you do Diana Krall with her
piano? Is that
acoustic‑based?
4752 I mean, I'm must trying
to figure out the leeway is, what this could transcend into or metamorphose
into ‑‑
4753 MR. PRINGLE: Right.
4754 MR. LANGFORD: ‑‑
if things weren't going well?
4755 MR. PRINGLE: Well, maybe this would help. It's not an acoustic‑based station, it's
a folk‑based acoustic station, right?
So folk music is the basis of this station. Like, you know, whether it's 30 or 50
percent folk, or whatever we play, the overwhelming sense is this is going to be
a folk music station. So what music
can you play that will fit with folk music?
4756 MR. LANGFORD: So if we license you, what do we call
you so that in licence renewal we can call you on what we called
you?
4757 MR. PRINGLE: Well, I would call us a folk station,
because I think most of this acoustic Category 2, I call folk
music.
4758 MR. LANGFORD: Okay.
4759 Those are my questions,
Mr. Chair. Thank
you.
4760 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr.
Langford.
4761 Madam del
Val.
4762 COMMISSIONER del
VAL: Just one
question.
4763 You must away of
CIRPA's intervention, where they commented that you weren't making contributions
to FACTOR and instead you had your own station. I was just wondering whether you had a
comment on that.
4764 MR. G. RAWLINSON: I don't want to sound flippant, but I
think that we ‑‑ I bet you we produced more CDs in Alberta last year than
FACTOR did, with those 20 CDs there.
And if you license us, we will be doing 40 CDs a year out of
Alberta.
4765 Their main thing is to
have it be administered nationally, and we are a great proponent of doing things
locally and supporting local artists.
We are proud to say that we are playing all of those 20 CDs on our
Edmonton radio station. We expect
to play the CDS that we produce, if we are licensed, on this radio
station.
4766 In fact, we had set a
goal to have half of our Category 3 music in Edmonton come from Edmonton
artists ‑‑ half our Category 3 Canadian music come from Edmonton by the end
of our licence term, and we are doing it already when we signed on. I mean, it's phenomenal. If it goes as well here, we will be
playing half of our Canadian music from Calgary. I mean, there's nobody else doing that
in Canada.
4767 So I appreciate
FACTOR's great work in a lot of areas, but we think locally we are doing
better.
4768 COMMISSIONER del
VAL: Thank
you.
4769 Those are my questions,
Mr. Chair.
4770 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mrs. del
Val.
4771 The 10K20, it's a
yearly project ‑‑
4772 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Yes.
4773 THE CHAIRMAN: ‑‑
so it's going to be for the seven years?
4774 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Yes, it's actually ‑‑ our
commitment is actually eight years because we commit to doing the first 20
before we sign on, so that we have got some music to play when we sign on. So those 20 on the board there in
Edmonton, those were produced prior to sign‑on, and I think we have already
fully funded six artists in Edmonton already for our year, which just started a
month ago. So we are well on the
way to doing ‑‑ so we were doing 20 a year there, and if we get this one,
as I say, we will be doing 20 before we sign on, and then 20 a
year.
4775 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, am I right to understand that Mr.
Armstrong, who is already working for the 10K20 program in Edmonton will also be
looking at the Calgary one?
4776 MS LEYLAND: That's correct.
4777 THE CHAIRMAN: It's correct. So you will be travelling back and forth
between the two cities.
4778 MR. ARMSTRONG: It's a nice drive.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4779 THE CHAIRMAN: It's a nice drive. That's what Commissioner Williams is
telling me.
4780 COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: You have got a good
source of inspirational music from your two comrades.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4781 MR. G. RAWLINSON: You have got it.
4782 Don lives here in
Calgary, but his role was not full time in Edmonton, so he will actually be
working part time on Calgary and part time on Edmonton. That will become like a full‑time job,
but ‑‑
4783 MS LEYLAND: And he will be paired
with Neil.
4784 MR. G. RAWLINSON: And paired with Neil, who is going to be
our executive producer here.
4785 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. I think you already answered partly, Mr.
Rawlinson, to my following question, but I'm putting it at least to make sure
that we registered it completely.
4786 If the Commission was
to grant more than one licence for the market, which other applicants could have
a negative effect on your business plan, and why?
4787 MR. G. RAWLINSON: First of all, in responding to that, I
want to make sure that we are not responding to the AM applicant for the
religious station and we are not referring to the ethic applicant that we have
just heard because those are out of our realm and we don't have any comments on
that.
4788 But amongst the
music‑based FM applicants for Calgary, we think that it would be possible to
license one applicant for our young format, young‑based format, of which I think
there's three applicants, it would possible to license an easy‑listening format,
and hopefully us. So we actually
have an opinion that would be okay, that this market, because it's such a rich
market, could handle that.
4789 We come from
Saskatchewan, as you know, and Pam has one interesting
comparison.
4790 MS LEYLAND: I would like to comment on
that.
4791 You know, I live in
Saskatoon, and in Saskatchewan our population is just under a million people,
and unfortunately it's declining.
There are 33 commercial radio stations in Saskatchewan and $60‑million
radio advertising market in the province as of the last information that we
have, as compared to Calgary, where the population is a million people, growing
rapidly, 13 radio stations, a $78‑million radio advertising market, growing
quickly. So by my calculation, you
could probably license another 20.
‑‑‑ Laughter /
Rires
4792 THE CHAIRMAN: Legal counsel.
4793 MS BENNETT: I just have one follow‑up question on
the blended Canadian content calculation that you have
proposed.
4794 Commissioner Williams
articulated earlier the Commission's concerns about the possibility with the
blended rate for programming Category 2 or Category 3 selections at a lower
level than the separate regulatory levels, and we heard in your comments
earlier, you outlined a scenario, where, under a blended rate, you could air 40
out of 100 selections being Canadian.
4795 I understand that your
Edmonton station operates under separate COLs for Category 2 and Category 3
Canadian content levels. I'm
wondering, could you comment on or come back to us with the possibility of
separate Category 2 and Category 3 levels that would allow you to air that 40
out of a hundred being Canadian?
4796 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Well, in Edmonton, it was a little bit
different because our commitment there was 35 percent Canadian overall. Of course, the rules require you to be
35 percent in Category 2 anyway, so you have no choice. So that means that automatically we just
said, "Well, okay, we've got to do that for sure, and our commitment is 35
percent", so it just became a natural to say we can do two separate commitments
because it was 35 percent.
4797 In this case, because
we are exceeding the commitment of 35 percent in Category 2 to 40 percent, and
we are also saying 40 percent in total, it just gives us a little more
flexibility to say that we will be 40 percent overall, and, of course, we will
meet the minimums of the 35 percent and 10 percent.
4798 MS BENNETT: So you are saying that you would have a
blended rate of 40 percent and you would meet the 35 and the
10?
4799 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Well, I think we have no choice. Every broadcaster has to meet the 35 and
10. So we are saying and then in
addition that we will have a blended rate of 40 overall. So I guess I'm not understanding what
the difficulty is. Maybe I don't
understand the question.
4800 MS BENNETT: Let me just confer with my colleague
here.
‑‑‑
Pause
4801 MS BENNETT: All right. Thank you.
4802 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Thank you.
4803 THE CHAIRMAN: So now's the time to wrap
up.
4804 Can you, in your own
words, tell us why the Commission should retain your
application?
4805 Mr. Rawlinson? Madam Leyland?
4806 MS LEYLAND: Yes, I was able to start, so I will ask
Gordon to wrap up.
4807 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Thank you.
4808 For over 35 years, my
brother Doug and I have managed radio stations. We are radio guys first and businessmen
second. We are businessmen, of
course, but we are radio guys first.
We have devoted our lives to doing great radio.
4809 Doug Pringle and Pam
Leyland have been with us for almost 25 years.
4810 The last few years I
have been invigorated by doing new types of radio, first news/talk in
Saskatchewan, which was a big challenge and a big learning curve for us. Then, recently smooth jazz, and now the
possibility, hopefully, of doing folk.
4811 We don't make huge
profits in our radio stations, and we won't make a lot with this one. But we are okay with
that.
4812 In Saskatchewan, we run
full‑service stations that superserve their communities. I'm extremely proud of the track record
of Pam and her team in Saskatchewan, and now in Edmonton: huge community service, excellent
news/talk stations, and leadership in first nations programming and
employment.
4813 So why is Rawlco
willing and able to do this bold application for a folk station? Well, we don't have any bank debt, so we
don't have pressure from bankers.
We are not a public company, so we don't have pressure from shareholders
and from the capital markets. And
we have the resources and the expertise.
4814 We are a locally,
Calgary‑owned radio group, and we are not just in it for the money, we are in it
for the fun.
4815 There's a huge number
of folk artists in Calgary, and we have the most effective and successfully
proven Canadian talent development program that I have ever seen in all my years
of radio: the 10K20 program, and
now the complementary programs that we have
added.
4816 The folk festival is
the second‑largest event in Calgary, after the Calgary Stampede. Not many people know that, but it's a
fact. There's a very large number
of people who love folk music and acoustic music in Calgary and the Calgary
market is strong enough to support a relatively small‑share
station.
4817 Doug Pringle pointed
out the psychographic difference between listeners to easy listening and
listeners to folk or acoustic music.
It's background versus foreground, and we are the most unique applicant
here. So we believe you can license
an easy‑listening station, or any other stations, and we are
okay.
4818 So Mr. Chairman and
members of the Commission, and staff, I personally feel that it would be a
tragedy if this opportunity is missed.
I feel this is a truly historic moment in Canadian radio and opportunity
for an innovative pioneering format, and I, and we, would be thrilled to get the
chance to do it.
4819 Thank
you.
4820 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Rawlinson. Thank you, Mrs. Leyland. Thank you to all your team for an
excellent presentation.
4821 We will adjourn now,
and reconvene tomorrow morning at 8:30 a.m.
4822 It's our intention to
hear the two last applications for Calgary in the morning and the three
applications for Airdrie in the afternoon, so we may close later tomorrow night
than 6 p.m.
4823 MR. G. RAWLINSON: Thank you.
4824 MS LEYLAND: Thank you.
‑‑‑ Whereupon the hearing
adjourned at 1820, to resume
on Thursday, February 23,
2006 at 0830 / L'audience
est ajournée à 1820, pour
reprendre le jeudi 23
fevrier 2006 à
0830
REPORTERS
_____________________
_____________________
Doug Lebel
Sue Villeneuve
_____________________
_____________________
Fiona Potvin
Sharon Millett