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Offrir un contenu dans les deux langues officielles

Prière de noter que la Loi sur les langues officielles exige que toutes publications gouvernementales soient disponibles dans les deux langues officielles.

Afin de rencontrer certaines des exigences de cette loi, les procès-verbaux du Conseil seront dorénavant bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience et la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l'audience.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

              TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

 

 

 

 

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

 

 

                       SUBJECT/SUJET:

 

 

Various broadcasting applications further to calls for

applications for broadcasting licences to carry on radio programming undertakings to serve Owen Sound, Windsor and Peterborough, Ontario /

Plusieurs demandes en radiodiffusion suite aux appels de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'entreprises de programmation de radio pour desservir Owen Sound, Windsor et Peterborough (Ontario)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

 

Rooms B, C & D                    Salons B, C et D

Delta Hotel London Armouries      Hôtel Delta London Armouries

325 Dundas Street                 325, rue Dundas

London, Ontario                   London (Ontario)

 

December 10, 2007                 Le 10 décembre 2007

 

 


 

 

 

 

Transcripts

 

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

 

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

 

 

 

 

Transcription

 

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

 

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.


               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

 

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

 

 

                 Transcript / Transcription

 

Various broadcasting applications further to calls for

applications for broadcasting licences to carry on radio programming undertakings to serve Owen Sound, Windsor and Peterborough, Ontario /

Plusieurs demandes en radiodiffusion suite aux appels de demandes de licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'entreprises de programmation de radio pour desservir Owen Sound, Windsor et Peterborough (Ontario)

 

 

 

 

BEFORE / DEVANT:

 

Rita Cugini                       Chairperson / Présidente

Peter Menzies                     Commissioner / Conseiller

Helen del Val                     Commissioner / Conseillère

 

 

 

 

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

 

Cindy Ventura                     Secretary / Secrétaire

Joe Aguiar                        Hearing Manager /

                                  Gérant de l'audience

Kelly-Anne Smith                  Legal Counsel /

                                  Conseillère juridique

 

 

 

 

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

 

Rooms B C D                       Salons B C D

Delta Hotel London Armouries      Hôtel Delta London Armouries

325 Dundas Street                 325, rue Dundas

London, Ontario                   London (Ontario)

 

December 10, 2007                 Le 10 décembre 2007

 


- iv -

 

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

 

                                                 PAGE / PARA

 

PHASE I

 

 

PRÉSENTATION PAR / PRESENTATION BY:

 

2079966 Ontario Limited                             5 /   26

 

Blackburn Radio Inc.                               60 /  403

 

Larche Communications Inc.                        120 /  779

 

Evanov Communications Inc.                        169 / 1079

 

 

 

PHASE II

 

No interventions / Aucune intervention

 

 

 

PHASE III

 

 

INTERVENTION PAR / INTERVENTION BY:

 

Jamie Pettit                                      221 / 1380

 

Walkerton and District Health Services Foundation 233 / 1448

 

Bayshore Broadcasting Corporation                 240 / 1500

 

 

 

PHASE IV

 

 

REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:

 

Evanov Communications Inc.                        262 / 1613

 

Blackburn Radio Inc.                              272 / 1660

 

2079966 Ontario Limited                           282 / 1710

 

 

 


                   London, Ontario / London (Ontario)

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Monday, December 10, 2007

    at 0930 / L'audience débute le lundi

    10 décembre 2007 à 0930

LISTNUM 1 \l 11                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good morning, ladies and gentlemen and welcome to this public hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12                My name is Rita Cugini and I am the CRTC Regional Commissioner for Ontario.  In case you hadn't guessed by now, I will be presiding over this hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13                Joining me on the panel are my colleagues, Helen del Val, Regional Commissioner for British Columbia and the Yukon, and Peter Menzies, National Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14                The Commission team assisting us includes Hearing Manager Joe Aguiar, who is also Manager of English Radio Operations; Kelly‑Anne Smith, Legal Counsel;and Cindy Ventura, Hearing Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15                Please speak with Ms Ventura if you have any questions with regard to hearing procedures.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16                At this hearing we will begin by considering four applications to operate a new English‑language FM commercial radio station in Owen Sound.


LISTNUM 1 \l 17                The panel will then examine two applications to operate a new FM commercial radio station in Windsor.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18                Finally, we will look at six applications to operate a new English‑language FM commercial radio station in Peterborough, as well as an application to convert the English‑language commercial radio station CKRU Peterborough from the AM band to the FM band and three applications to operate a new English‑language FM commercial radio station in Kawartha Lakes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19                I will now invite the Hearing Secretary, Cindy Ventura, to explain the procedures we will be following.  Ms Ventura...

LISTNUM 1 \l 110               THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 111               Before beginning, I would like to go over a few housekeeping matters to ensure the proper conduct of the hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 112               Le service d'interprétation simultanée est disponible durant cette audience.  Vous pouvez vous procurer un récepteur auprès du technicien à l'arrière de la salle.  L'interprétation anglaise se trouve au canal 1, et l'interprétation française au canal 2.


LISTNUM 1 \l 113               When you are in the hearing room we would ask that you please turn off your cell phones, beepers and BlackBerrys as they are an unwelcome distraction and they cause interference on the internal communication systems used by our translators.  We would appreciate your cooperation in this regard throughout the hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 114               We expect the hearing to take approximately four and a half days, starting today until Friday.  Starting tomorrow we will begin each morning at 9:00 a.m.  We will take an hour for lunch, a break in the morning and a break in the afternoon.  We will let you know of any schedule changes as they may occur.

LISTNUM 1 \l 115               The Gunnery Ballroom will serve as the examination room where you can examine the public files of the applications being considered at this hearing.  As indicated in the agenda, the telephone number of the examination room is 519‑660‑0688.

LISTNUM 1 \l 116               There is a verbatim transcript of the hearing being taken by the court reporter sitting at the table in front of me.  If you have any questions on how to obtain all or part of this transcript, please approach the court reporter during a break.


LISTNUM 1 \l 117               Please note that the full transcript will be made available on the Commission's website shortly after the conclusion of the hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 118               Also, in Broadcasting Notice of Public Hearing 2007‑14‑4 the Commission announced its decision to consider two CBC Windsor technical amendment applications, items 7 and 8, as part of the non‑appearing phase of the public hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 119               For the record, the Commission was advised by Mr. Neeti P. Ray on his intention to submit an intervention commenting on the CBC application, item 7 on the Notice of Public Hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 120               Accordingly, the Commission has approved his request and Mr. Ray has submitted his intervention to the Commission with a copy to the CBC.  The CBC may file its written response by December 17th, 2007.

LISTNUM 1 \l 121               A copy of Mr. Ray's intervention is available in the public examination room and has been added to the public examination file.

LISTNUM 1 \l 122               Now, Madam Chair, we will proceed with item 1 on the agenda, which is an application by 2079966 Ontario Limited for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Owen Sound.


LISTNUM 1 \l 123               The new station would operate on frequency 92.3 MHz (channel 222B) with an average effective radiated power of 32,000 watts (non‑directional antenna/antenna height of 104 metres).

LISTNUM 1 \l 124               Appearing for the Applicant is Mr. Brian Cooper.  Please introduce your colleagues and you will have 20 minutes for your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 125               Mr. Cooper.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 126               MR. COOPER:  Madam Chair, members of the Commission, my name is Brian Cooper.  I am President of 2079966 Ontario Limited, which owns and operates The Coast FM in Kincardine, which is situated 75 kilometres south of Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 127               I would like to begin by introducing our ownership group, and, in particular, give you a little background on myself and my partner, Danny McCarthy, as principals of this application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 128               I have been in entertainment for the last 30 years.  Some highlights ‑‑ I was the former President and COO of the Toronto Argonauts when Wayne Gretsky and John CandY owned the club.


LISTNUM 1 \l 129               I was the former President and COO of Inside Sports, a TV broadcast and production company.  My partner in that venture was Mr. Larry Tanenbaum, who is the current Chairman of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, which owns the Toronto Maple Leafs and the Toronto Raptors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 130               While I was there, I was the founding partner of the NHL Network, along with TSN and the NHL, as well as Goal TV and the World Fishing Network.

LISTNUM 1 \l 131               Currently I am President and CEO of Sports and Entertainment.  We are a marketing consultancy group, with clients like Warner Brothers, Sirius Satellite Radio, Scotiabank, and a host of others.

LISTNUM 1 \l 132               My partner, Danny McCarthy, and I met 35 years ago at St. Mary's University as accounting students.  Dan is a chartered accountant.  He has 20 years in the investment banking industry.  He is currently Vice‑Chairman of CIBC World Markets, and has engineered some of the largest financing deals in Canadian corporate history.

LISTNUM 1 \l 133               One thing we both have in common is our love for rock'n'roll music.  Both Dan and I were DJs at St. Mary's University's radio station, and even to this date Dan is the lead singer of a rock group called The Hedge Funds.  Fortunately, he is not going to be singing for us today.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires


LISTNUM 1 \l 134               On my right is Christopher Grossman, President of Haliburton Radio Broadcasting Group, which owns and operates 18 small market licences throughout Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 135               On my left, next to Danny, is the key builder of this application, Mike Brough, who is the General Manager of The Coast Kincardine FM, and will be the General Manager of The Pearl if our application is approved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 136               Next to Mike, on his left, is Lynda Cooper, who is the News Director of our Kincardine operation, and will be assuming that role in Owen Sound if our application is approved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 137               Also on the panel, on my right, is Wendy Gray, the Operations Manager of Haliburton Broadcasting Group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 138               Commissioners, our goal for this application is, one, to repatriate the rock radio tuning back to local radio in Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 139               Two, to add a new local editorial and ownership voice in Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 140               Three, to improve the balance of radio ownership in the Grey Bruce Region.

LISTNUM 1 \l 141               Four, to strengthen our station in Kincardine.


LISTNUM 1 \l 142               Five, to repatriate hundreds of thousands of radio ad spend dollars that are going out of market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 143               And six, to provide the citizens of Owen Sound with a much needed music genre that isn't currently being offered by a local radio operator.

LISTNUM 1 \l 144               We started The Coast FM in Ontario with great enthusiasm as a long‑time summer resident there and with strong ties to the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 145               The thought of making our contribution to the broadcast system was and is exciting.  The learning curve has been quite a ride, but Kincardine is on the air and is now very much a part of the fabric of the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 146               It is something I am very proud of.  Our focus on community and public service have become the tenets of our operation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 147               It has not been without its challenges and a few unexpected obstacles. Particularly, when we first launched, some of the agreements we had in place to utilize existing towers were reneged upon.  This set us back and cost us significantly more money and time than we expected.


LISTNUM 1 \l 148               Needless to say, we are up and strong, and the operational delays have been overcome.  Regardless, we have been successful in launching Kincardine, and we are hoping to have our repeaters in Goderich and Port Elgin up and running shortly, once we receive approval from the Commission on our application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 149               Part of our early success in Kincardine and assisting with our ability to overcome the start‑up obstacles was the participation of Haliburton Broadcasting Group.  Their experience, infrastructure and network provided us with invaluable resources.

LISTNUM 1 \l 150               The entire experience has provided us with the ability to expand our radio holdings, and we approach the possibility of launching in Owen Sound with great expectation and enthusiasm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 151               It is our goal to build a new radio company.  We want to be a new, vibrant entry into the radio business.  It is our sense that the radio business needs new, vibrant ownership, and we are up for it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 152               We need to create synergies and efficiencies.  We believe that a formula of programming, marketing and community integration will be a success in Owen Sound.


LISTNUM 1 \l 153               We invite you to ask anyone in our market about The Coast FM.  Their answer is, inevitably, that we are their voice in the community and their choice in music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 154               We believe that the efficiencies we will gain by having The Pearl will allow us to provide the residents of both Kincardine and Owen Sound with great community‑based radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 155               MR. McCARTHY:  Good morning.  We are here today to apply for a rock radio station, The Pearl, for the city of Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 156               Our process in making this application was, first, to find a format that had proven top‑rated BBM demand over a long period of time, a format that the Owen Sound radio listener wanted.

LISTNUM 1 \l 157               Second, that we were sensitive to the size of the market, and that the format was financially viable, at both an audience and advertising level, and the new service was not a fringe or narrow format that had little chance for success.

LISTNUM 1 \l 158               Third, that we had the people resources to launch a rock product successfully, and that also had a proven track record of programming successfully in the Owen Sound radio market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 159               Fourth, that this new station would add a new and relevant editorial and ownership voice to the community.


LISTNUM 1 \l 160               Fifth, as a new ownership entry, that we have the support and expertise of a radio company with small market expertise and a proven track record of success in launching a single station up against a one‑owner, multi‑cluster radio group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 161               We looked for a format that had little to no effect on the incumbent local radio operator.

LISTNUM 1 \l 162               Our audience will be largely comprised of repatriated Owen Sound rock radio listeners who are currently listening to The Bull.

LISTNUM 1 \l 163               Finally, and most importantly, in this time of rapid technological change affecting the radio business, our business plan, revenue estimates, and CCD benefits are realistic and sensible for the size of the Owen Sound market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 164               Our goal is not to make unrealistic promises in both CCD revenue and audience estimates and come back three years from now to say we can't make a go of it.


LISTNUM 1 \l 165               MS GRAY:  Owen Sound is an oddity in southern Ontario because one broadcaster owns three licences in a relatively small market, but the top‑rated station is one that is broadcast 85 kilometres away, in another small market, Wingham, Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 166               Owen Sound is a rare jewel.  It melds together the economic and retail hustle and bustle of the hub of the Grey Bruce Region and the natural pristine beauty of Georgian Bay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 167               Owen Sound is rich with nature.  Its hidden streams, waterfalls, exotic gardens of rare orchids and ferns, clear blue water and relaxing beaches make it a tourist destination for nature lovers and historians alike.

LISTNUM 1 \l 168               But Owen Sound is growing.  This 150‑year‑old city is expanding and prospering as new commercial and industrial growth populates the northwest end of Grey County, and is located in or just adjacent to Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 169               It has a strong and motivated workforce.  Employment is healthiest during the spring, summer and fall, due to the seasonal tourism that Owen Sound enjoys.

LISTNUM 1 \l 170               However, Bruce Power, the County of Grey, and Durham Furniture are ranked the top three employers, with over 500 employed.  There are also five employers with over 250 employees, and 13 employers with 100 to 250 employees.


LISTNUM 1 \l 171               It offers a unique alternative to big city living, with affordable and available housing compared to other urban centres to the south.

LISTNUM 1 \l 172               In the past 10 years the city of Owen Sound has made significant strides to improve its image as not only a nature‑based travel destination, but also a business, commercial and cultural centre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 173               Owen Sound is a unique city, vibrant with nature, and rich in its history, as it was once known as the Chicago of the North.

LISTNUM 1 \l 174               Retail sales are robust and healthy in Owen Sound.  According to FP Market, retail sales growth is expected to increase by 22.7 percent between 2007 and 2012.

LISTNUM 1 \l 175               Retail spending is well above the national average.  According to FP Market, retail spending in Owen Sound, Bruce County and Grey County could reach $1.7 billion this year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 176               FP Market also projects retail sales to grow by 8.2 percent in Grey County and by 15 percent in Bruce County by 2009.

LISTNUM 1 \l 177               According to Statistics Canada, Owen Sound's population grew by 2.1 percent between 2001 and 2006.

LISTNUM 1 \l 178               In Owen Sound central, the 12‑plus BBM cell population is 114,000.


LISTNUM 1 \l 179               Taking into consideration the profitability of the existing stations in Owen Sound and the demand for a current and classic rock radio station, we believe the time is right for a new radio service in Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 180               The largest benefit of The Pearl would be to its listeners.  Currently, rock radio listeners, especially men aged 18 to 49, are tuning out of market for rock radio.  That leaves them with little, if any, local news content, traffic, weather and community information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 181               A new rock radio FM service in Owen Sound would repatriate that lucrative demographic to a local service, providing the local information they need to know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 182               Couple that with the repatriation of advertising spending into Owen Sound, we feel that The Pearl would have little impact on the existing local radio operator.

LISTNUM 1 \l 183               The Pearl will offer this vibrant city a distinct new editorial voice, while repatriating out‑of‑market tuning with its rock‑based format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 184               It would also enhance synergies with our existing Kincardine station, CIYN.


LISTNUM 1 \l 185               MR. BROUGH:  Mother of all rock, 92.3 The Pearl.  Pearly inlay is used to dress up guitars.  Pearl was Janis Joplin's nickname.

LISTNUM 1 \l 186               The Pearl is a highly valued gemstone that is associated with richness and class.  The Pearl rock station will resonate with class.  It will be a mature presentation of the greatest rock music ever recorded.

LISTNUM 1 \l 187               I was the original program director of Blackburn Radio's rock station The Bull, CIBU, in Wingham.  I put that station together, knowing the huge effect it would have in the Owen Sound market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 188               Owen Sound is a rock town.  It has long been a hotbed for live rock acts.  The community supports live music, and now it will have a radio station that will provide 100 percent support for local musicians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 189               Years ago I can remember seeing the great Canadian punk band Teenage Head at a popular Owen Sound nightclub called The Downtowner.  It is no longer there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 190               I saw another great Canadian band called The Kings at Westhill Secondary School.

LISTNUM 1 \l 191               The list of fairly major rock acts to hit the Sound at various venues is legendary.


LISTNUM 1 \l 192               There is also a groundswell of local musicians who will prosper and flourish because of The Pearl.

LISTNUM 1 \l 193               I have worked with many of the seasoned music veterans in Owen Sound over the years, hiring many at an area nightclub I once owned, and I am looking forward to breaking new ground with the new, exciting talent that is there right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 194               A song will never become a classic unless it receives some airtime and somebody actually hears it.  The Pearl will champion new Canadian rock acts, with even more emphasis on the tremendous local talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 195               Every two hours we will play a new, emerging, local Owen Sound musician.  The Pearl listeners will feel like they are part of something very special, and they will be.  The Pearl will encourage listener participation at every level.  The Pearl listeners will be encouraging local musicians to be the best they can be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 196               The Bull, even though it is not an Owen Sound central station has achieved great success in Owen Sound.  Sales were good right out of the gate.  BBM numbers, they have been tremendous.


LISTNUM 1 \l 197               CIBU, The Bull out of Wingham, is the most listened to radio service in Owen Sound central for both key advertising demographics, adults 25 to 54 and adults 18 to 49, as well as all male demos under the age of 54.

LISTNUM 1 \l 198               It is clear that the incumbent radio stations in Owen Sound are not in particular serving the rock listener age 18 to 54.  These listeners are tuning to CIBU for the music with no local information and they are finding alternative choices to radio, such as the radio, internet iPods and even satellite.

LISTNUM 1 \l 199               A new rock radio service would bring those lost radio listeners back to a local service.  If an out of Owen Sound central radio station like The Bull can create such an impact, imagine what an Owen Sound originating rock station will do.  Rock radio is one of the most exciting formats in all of broadcasting.  A hybrid meshing of classic rock and modern rock has made the format a comfortable choice for rock fans of both eras.  The benefit to the local music scene would increase tenfold with the approval of our application.  We will adopt Owen Sound's impressive musical community.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1100              Local music will be programmed throughout the regular broadcast day every other hour and also during a special highlight program we call "Live from Owen Sound" which will feature local musicians performing live or out on location.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1101              It is my experience that a community falls in love with a radio station that is proud of its local talent and has no fear of showcasing that talent as we already do at Coast FM in Kincardine.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1102              Canadian music in general will be of high priority.  There are so many exciting emerging Canadian artists that need increased exposure, which is why our station when it comes to modern rock will place greater emphasis on Canadian as opposed to international artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1103              By providing fresh Canadian music and local musicians getting their first exposure on the radio, we will deliver promotions that revolve around cultivating the local music scene.  The Pearl will be a breath of fresh air in Owen Sound.  The Pearl will feature a fat music universe that the area has never been exposed to.  We will go deeper on albums; spin a wealth of local recordings.  The audience wants and needs diversity which means not only going deeper with popular artists but expanding the number of acts, actual acts in the music universe.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1104              When I was with Blackburn Radio Owen Sound was a focal point when we built The Bull.  And with that experience as a rock radio programmer and Owen Sound and area concert promoter and my upbringing in the Owen Sound area, I have a wealth of research information and street experience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1105              MS COOPER:  Our experience as a small market radio operator gives us an edge in the delivery of news and information.  Throughout our collective years of experience it has shown us that most important component of radio programming is the relevant local information we give to our listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1106              The Pearl would provide 64 local newscasts weekly along with 64 updates on cultural, charitable and recreational activities and events.  We will also offer traffic, weather, marine weather, business and regional fire advisories for a total of six and a half hours of local spoken word programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1107              The Pearl will service its listeners and will be on local first, covering topics of local and regional interests.  The information packages will not only service the city of Owen Sound but also the Grey Bruce region and smaller catchment communities such as Port Elgin, Meaford and Chatsworth.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1108              We are also committed to providing the Cape Crocker and Saugeen First Nations communities with relevant news and entertainment programming, produced specifically for our aboriginal listeners.  The Pearl will share synergies with Haliburton Broadcasting Group, already a leader in aboriginal affairs programming and small market news content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1109              The Pearl would air an aboriginal news and current affairs program called "Bomseda" weekly in prime time.  An aboriginal news reporter would regularly report and highlight issues of interest to the First Nations communities in the Grey Bruce region and throughout our regularly scheduled news packages Monday through Sunday.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1110              The Owen Sound market needs a new and a fresh editorial voice.  With just one local radio operator serving news and information to the community, the area needs a distinct and fresh approach to delivering the local news.  Because of our connection to the existing Haliburton Broadcasting Group, Moose Radio Network, we will share information and synergies reflected through central and northern Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1111              Two news reporters and a community stringer will be hired to deliver local news content from the outlying areas to our news room, a news room staffed by residents of Grey Bruce region.  Those staff members will live, work and play in the community and will have the dedication to our listeners to deliver news that matters to them and is about them.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1112              Owen Sound is home to a thriving sports community.  The Owen Sound Attack of the OHL and its supporting Junior "B" franchise, the Owen Sound Greys, will be highlighted in an expanded sports feature reported weekly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1113              Lacrosse is also huge in Owen Sound and both the Owen Sound Woodsmen and Own Sound Rams would benefit from the on air support of The Pearl.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1114              Owen Sound also has a strong and vibrant cultural community.  In 2004 Owen Sound was named the cultural capital of Canada and, according to Statistics Canada, Owen Sound enjoys a higher than average cultural employment.  Those employers include the Roxy Theatre, the Summerfolk Music and Crafts Festival, the Tom Thomson Memorial Art Gallery, the Billy Bishop Museum and the Owen Sound Marine and Rail Museum, all of which would be highlighted in a weekly cultural program designed to inspire interest in the rich cultural fabric of Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1115              The flourishing business community will also have a voice on The Pearl.  We propose a weekly segment dedicated to the Chamber of Commerce as well as the downtown improvement area.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1116              The Pearl will also provide a public service to many of Owen Sound's community groups and organizations.  We believe strongly in providing airtime to organizations that are dedicated to improving the lives and circumstances of our listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1117              In Owen Sound service clubs such as the Kiwanis Club, the Owen Sound family YMCA and Big Sisters of North Grey and Owen Sound would be invited into the station to update our listeners on their activities and their events.  Other organizations such as the Women's House of Bruce and Grey, Keystone Child, Youth and Family Services and the South Grey Bruce Literacy Council would be given access to our community calendar segments and regular interview opportunities on The Pearl.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1118              Finally, we believe in a healthy community and to ensure that we will continue to assist health services as we have in central and northern Ontario.  The Grey Bruce Regional Health Centre Foundation can be assured the full support of The Pearl as they try to raise funds for minimally invasive surgery operating rooms, a mobile digital sea arm and new nurse call systems.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1119              To enhance our on air information content we will also create a web‑based service that will highlight local public organizations and community information, all by the click of your mouse.  That website will also provide valuable information to visitors to the Owen Sound area through links with the Chamber, the DIA and other tourist destinations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1120              We have a proven track record of delivering information that matters to our listeners.  Our news philosophy is simple:  provide local and relevant information to all of our listeners in a responsible and diverse manner.  That commitment to our listeners will not only keep them connected to their community but also to the rest of the province and the rest of the country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1121              MR. BROUGH:  We are committed to supporting local musicians with on air exposure, but also we will make a significant financial contribution to Canadian talent development.  Over the term of its licence The Pearl will contribute $70,000 in direct contributions to Canadian talent development.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1122              100 percent of our CCD contribution will be directed to FACTOR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1123              The Pearl will also make a substantial non‑cash CTD contribution.  The Pearl will take an active role in working with the local music community, providing local programming through the regular broadcast day and a showcase of local and emerging talent with live from Owen Sound.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1124              The station will promote the local music scene not only through its spoken word program but also opening doors to live venue concert opportunities sponsored by The Pearl.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1125              Also, on a biannual basis we will record and produce a compilation CD of local talent that will showcase that talent and be sold to listeners with all proceeds benefiting local school music programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1126              The Pearl will also work with local high schools providing mentoring for their media programs.  The Pearl will also showcase the same high school students with a one‑hour radio show weekly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1127              MR. McCARTHY:  Owen Sound is a city enjoying strong growth in both population and retail spending.  The Pearl will have little impact to the current radio operator.  We expect the bulk of our radio advertising income will come from new advertisers and repatriated from out‑of‑market spending.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1128              MS COOPER:  Madam Chair and Commissioners, we believe we have presented a solid, logical and sensible business plan for a new FM radio service for the Owen Sound market.  There is clearly a disparity in service to the market, a market only served by one radio operator with the top‑rated station coming from 85 kilometres away.  The Pearl will correct this disparity as well as provide a new editorial and ownership voice to the area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1129              We believe the highlights of our application are a new editorial voice for Owen Sound, a new ownership voice for Owen Sound, a local voice for rock radio listeners currently not served by a local operator, $70,000 in CTD over the term of the licence, local news and information enhanced by the relationship with the existing Haliburton Broadcasting Group's newsrooms across the province, aboriginal programming to serve Cape Crocker and Saugeen Shores First Nations communities, 12 new jobs for local broadcasters, repatriation of advertising dollars to the local market; a realistic and solid business plan that will have little to no impact on the existing radio operator.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1130              The City of Owen Sound and, in particular, its rock radio listeners need this new service.  We feel that we will bring to Owen Sound's radio listeners a strong, diverse news and information package that would offer listeners a choice of both local information and music content.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1131              We have the programming expertise.  We have a vibrant new ownership group, local market knowledge along with the commitment and the resources for the long term.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1132              This concludes our presentation and we would appreciate the opportunity to answer any questions about our application the Commission has.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1133              Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1134              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Cooper, Mr. McCarthy and your colleagues.  Welcome to this hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1135              Just for the record, you have attached some appendices to your oral presentation, so could you just identify what those are and if this is new information?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1136              MS COOPER:  That information is included in the actual application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1137              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it's not new information?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1138              MR. GROSSMAN:  No, it's not.  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1139              THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.  I just wanted to get that on the record.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1140              Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1141              I apologize for the buzz.  It seems to be my microphone, a bad thing to happen at a radio hearing but we hope to get it resolved on the break.  So just bear with us for this presentation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1142              Mr. Brough, I want to thank you for ‑‑ first of all, for providing a little bit more context on the choice of the name "The Pearl".  And I was wondering is "Mother of All Rock" going to be your tagline?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1143              MR. BROUGH:  Yes, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1144              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, because when I think of The Pearl I thought that sounds more like an easy listening station to me.  But thanks for the context.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1145              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So I do want to start with the choice of format because, as we know, once you choose the format that forms the basis for your business plan.  And you are proposing a blend of current and classic rock, targeting a predominantly male audience.  Now, according to your application age 25 to 54, but in your oral presentation this morning you seemed to focus more on a younger demo; that is, 18 to 54.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1146              So what is your core target audience for this radio station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1147              MR. BROUGH:  I will turn that over to Christopher.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1148              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sure.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1149              MR. GROSSMAN:  I think the reference that Mike made where it is all demographics from 18‑54, but the primary focus of the application is adults 25‑54, which is the core audience of The Bull out of Wingham.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1150              THE CHAIRPERSON:  What would you say is the median age therefore?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1151              MR. GROSSMAN:  I think it would probably a 39‑40 year‑old male.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1152              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, thank you for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1153              And obviously you looked at what currently exists in the market.  You looked at where the out‑of‑market tuning is going.  Did you take any other factors into consideration in coming up with this target demo?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1154              MR. COOPER:  Madam Chair, we did. We did a survey of the marketplace, of existing radio listenership and their patterns.  We looked at the out‑of‑market tuning as well and came to the conclusion that this was the underserved portion of the music genre that we needed to focus on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1155              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Did you include the survey in your application?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1156              MR. COOPER:  The reference to a survey is looking at the BBM ratings historically over the last few years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1157              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  I believe I read in your application that you say that 24 per cent of out‑of‑market tuning goes to CIBU‑FM, is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1158              MR. GROSSMAN:  I believe it is 30 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1159              THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is up to 30 per cent.  How much of that ‑‑ you are shaking your head.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1160              MR. GROSSMAN:  The ratings just came out last week and I think two things to note. Number one, was from my reference a record of 70.9 per cent of out‑of‑market tuning in Owen Sound right now and, The Bull, I think in the Rank Report that we gave you, which is the most updated rating, is 24 and change in terms of a share in the marketplace right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1161              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And how much of that out‑of‑market tuning do you hope to capture?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1162              MR. GROSSMAN:  Mike?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1163              MR. BROUGH:  We expect to capture 15 to 20 per cent of the market share with The Bull.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1164              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that would come all from the out‑of‑market ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1165              MR. BROUGH:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1166              THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ currently from those people who are listening to the Wingham station, correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1167              MR. BROUGH:  Most of those numbers would come as repatriated listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1168              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  In response to deficiencies you did provide a limited play list of artists.  And I see that it is a little bit expanded in the appendices that you attached to your oral presentation.  Have you done a comparison to determine the level of duplication with the Wingham station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1169              MR. BROUGH:  When you are working with a rock format there is going to be a lot of duplication.  What sets our particular application apart from the others, and even The Bull itself, is how many spins we are going to be giving emerging artists, emerging Canadian artists, local Owen Sound artists.  So there is going to be a huge diversity when it comes to that with our actual format compared to that of The Bull.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1170              THE CHAIRPERSON:  The reason I am asking is I am trying to get a handle on what is going to be so attractive about your format and your musical selections that will prompt those people who are in the Owen Sound market who currently listen to Wingham to change the dial and tune into your radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1171              MR. COOPER:  Madam Chair, just to add to that.  I think Mike alluded to it, but the fact that it is local, it is not only local artists, it is local news, local traffic and it is the local offering that we can provide to the listeners in that area rather than tuning out‑of‑market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1172              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it is not just simply duplication of the music?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1173              MR. COOPER:  No, not at all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1174              THE CHAIRPERSON:  In other words, if they like the music on Wingham then they are going to like the music on The Bull, because you are going to copy their format or their choice of artists?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1175              MR. COOPER:  No, we wouldn't be copying their format.  We would have our own distinct sound, as we do in Kincardine, and we are still in competition with those radio stations as well.  But the fact that we ‑‑ incremental programming would be about local and we think local sells.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1176              THE CHAIRPERSON:  You project a ‑‑ is it a 12 per cent share in the first year, at launch, you project to capture 12 per cent share of tuning in the Owen Sound market, right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1177              MR. COOPER:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1178              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you have projections for years two to seven?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1179              MR. COOPER:  Christopher.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1180              MR. GROSSMAN:  Yes, I think the accumulation of the share, I think largely, we are thinking of repatriating about 85 to 90 per cent of The Bull's audience in the seventh year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1181              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right, but what would that translate into in terms of share of the Owen Sound market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1182              MR. GROSSMAN:  Again, because you'd have to take into consideration the duplication that those two stations would enjoy.  I think that would probably come in at about 22 to 23 per cent share in the market

LISTNUM 1 \l 1183              THE CHAIRPERSON:  By year seven?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1184              MR. GROSSMAN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1185              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Could you provide us with a break down of your projected share ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1186              MR. GROSSMAN:  Yes, we can.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1187              THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ from years two to seven?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1188              MR. GROSSMAN:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1189              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Terrific, thank you.  Is there any other out‑of‑market tuning that you expect to repatriate?  In other words, is the Owen Sound listening audience listening to anything else other than the Wingham station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1190              MR. GROSSMAN:  I think the male rock station has a disproportionately high share of tuning in that marketplace ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1191              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1192              MR. GROSSMAN:  ‑‑ from Wingham.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1193              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, in terms of the impact on the existing stations, your supplementary brief specifies that 15 per cent of your advertising revenues will come from existing stations.  Some might say that is minimal impact. Do you see any duplication with the current AC station that is in the market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1194              MR. GROSSMAN:  I think, you know, just from my personal experience when we have, in Haliburton, have launched single stations up against multi‑station clusters what we found, normally, is that the market tends to, you know, the incumbents tend to be affected marginally if the format ‑‑ in this case, which is glaringly obvious, and then the market tends to grow.  So I think that you have a lot of disenfranchised rock advertisers, there is a lot of repatriation advertiser opportunities for us.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1195              And I just think of the experience that we had in North Bay where we launched the station, had strong ratings out of the age, and overachieved both the estimates that we made to the CRTC as well as what we think we can do in this market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1196              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it is safe to assume that your contention is that since the format currently doesn't exist from a local broadcaster the impact, therefore, on that existing broadcaster is ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1197              MR. GROSSMAN:  Yes, I think it is contention and the experience that we have as well as Mike being the author of The Bull in Wingham.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1198              THE CHAIRPERSON:  In terms of advertising revenues to come from new advertisers you estimate that 50 per cent increasing to 85 per cent by year seven of your advertising revenues will come from new advertisers.  Some would say this is rather high.  So what evidence do you have to sustain this dependency on new advertisers in this market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1199              MR. GROSSMAN:  I think the evidence would be the local newspapers in both those markets, both of them weekly.  They are best described as the yellow pages in terms of thickness.  There is a tremendous opportunity in that market.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1200              And again, you know, drawing on our experience, when we go into these markets as a single station up against a cluster, we tend to find that they have had one sales rep come for 20 years or 30 years to specific customers.  And again, we are not suggesting that Bayshore hasn't done a wonderful job doing radio in the market, which they have I am sure.  But the reality is if you get more people in front of more advertisers in a local small market you will get more advertising.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1201              THE CHAIRPERSON:  But should this not come to pass, should your seemingly reliance on new advertisers not come to pass, what effect will that have on your business plan overall?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1202              MR. GROSSMAN:  Again, I would suggest that it is from our experience in doing it and being successful doing it.  I don't know, necessarily, if that is the case when you have a single market with one sales force over a long period of time talking to advertisers about radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1203              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  I am going to move on now to the specifics of your proposal as they relate to local spoken word programming, live‑to‑air and voice tracking, programming staff levels, synergies and, finally, CCD.  And we will take these one at a time, obviously.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1204              So spoken word.  You are proposing 6.5 hours of spoken word of which 3.5 hours will be news.  You also say that of that news portion 70 per cent would be dedicated to local news stories.  So if my math is correct, of the 3.5 hours of news, 2 hours and 45 minutes are devoted to local news.  Is that right?  Have I got my grade 12 math right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1205              MR. COOPER:  Yes, you do, Madam, Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1206              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1207              And so the 1 hour and 30 minutes that is left of the news portion, will that be regional, national and international news stories?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1208              MR. COOPER: Madam Chair, I am going to direct this to Wendy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1209              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1210              MS GRAY:  You are correct, that will be dedicated to regional, provincial, national, international news, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1211              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  So if we have taken care of the 3.5 hours of the total 6.5 hours of spoken word, what makes up the balance of three hours?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1212              MS GRAY:  The rest of the spoken word programming will be community information through our community calendars.  We have also factored in a health watch program because the demographic is aging, health issues are important, business issues as well, we have a business report.  We also have a live announcer speak as well, factored into that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1213              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, I get that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1214              MS GRAY:  So the balance of it, basically, is going to be local information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1215              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And what about surveillance material, where would that factor in? Is that in the 3 hours or the 3.5 hours, news, weather?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1216              MS GRAY:  That would also factor into the other 3.5 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1217              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Part of the 3.5 or part of the 3?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1218              MS GRAY:  Part of the 3 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1219              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  You spoke about it in your oral presentation, but in your application as well you are proposing to give local high school students their own weekly one‑hour radio show?  Is that in the 3.5 hours or the 3 hours?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1220              MR. COOPER:  Madam Chair, we actually did that in Kincardine.  Mike, could you speak to that please?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1221              MR. BROUGH:  Sure.  Yes, what a wonderful program and what a way to mentor.  We took a media class.  I did actually this in Huntsville as well, I was up there for 10 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1222              And I approached the high school, because I think it is very important to get the youth involved.  You get the youth, you get their parents, you get their aunts and uncles involve din your radio station as well, it is that commitment and passion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1223              So we bring the kids in, I give them radio 101 and then I put them to work and they put together their own one‑hour show.  I let them choose the music from the music universe and they can spin as many local artists as they want to and that is a full hour, once a week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1224              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that is part of the 3 hours?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1225              MR. BROUGH:  And that is part of the 3 hours.  Not, that is not a part of ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1226              MS GRAY:  That is not part of the ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1227              MR. BROUGH:  ‑‑ that is addition to our 3 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1228              MS GRAY:  ‑‑ no, that is not part of the 3 hours.  That is in addition to the ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1229              THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is in addition?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1230              MS GRAY:  Yes, that is in addition, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1231              MR. BROUGH:  That is in addition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1232              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Have you contacted local high school to gauge the interest in such a project?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1233              MR. BROUGH:  I haven't as of yet, but I will tell you from experience, it will be instantaneous and they will be very happy to see me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1234              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Who is going to be responsible for ensuring ‑‑ I mean, high school kids, right, I mean, who is going to be responsible for ensuring that this program will meet broadcast standards?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1235              MR. BROUGH:  That would be myself as the general manager of The Bull in Owen Sound, that would be my responsibility and I will take it on gladly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1236              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  And just to be absolutely sure, all of the spoken word programming is averaged over the broadcast week?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1237              MS GRAY:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1238              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, thank you. Will you be doing any voice tracking or automated programming?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1239              MS GRAY:  We will have voice tracking.  Our middays and evenings will be voice tracks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1240              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So how many hours live?  How many hours voice tracked?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1241              MS GRAY:  We will have 126 hours of local live programming and ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1242              MR. GROSSMAN:  Not quite.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1243              MS GRAY:  Not quite.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1244              MR. GROSSMAN:  The originating programming will be 126 hours and, the block of Monday to Friday, 64 hours a week will be voice tracked.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1245              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sixty‑four?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1246              MR. GROSSMAN:  Sixty‑four.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1247              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1248              Now, in terms of who will be doing all of this work.  We do have your projected staffing and, therefore, salary levels.  And there is the context of the fact that, if licensed, you will be competing in not only for listeners but also for staff.  And this competition, I mean, you are going to be facing competition from a well‑heeled incumbent in the market and so I would just like to explore this area with you for a minute.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1249              I believe in your oral presentation, if I am not mistaken, you said you hired two people to staff the newsroom; is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1250              MS GRAY:  That's two news reporters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1251              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1252              MS GRAY:  And then we will also have an announcer for the morning drive.  So it's three ‑‑ the news director will also be the morning show co‑host and news reader ‑‑ an additional two reporters and a part‑time freelance stringer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1253              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And these three people essentially will be responsible for all of the spoken word content on the station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1254              MS GRAY:  They will be responsible for the news content and the surveillance information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1255              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1256              MS GRAY:  The announcers ‑‑ our morning show and our announcers will also cultivate local content throughout their shows as part of their show prep.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1257              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  What evidence do you have that the salary levels proposed are commensurate with this market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1258              MR. GROSSMAN:  They are just averages that ‑‑ my personal experience in being in the markets that we are in, for a market that size they are certainly measurable and attainable.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1259              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you are confident that you can attract the kind of talent that you are going to need to compete, like I said, not only with the incumbent but also with out‑of‑market tuning?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1260              MR. GROSSMAN:  Yes, we are looking forward to it.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1261              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And I am sure that talent is as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1262              Now in terms of synergies, you spoke about it in your application, specifically synergies with the Kincardine station, and in your oral presentation today you also talked about synergies with Haliburton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1263              So you could you please elaborate on both of those?  Where do you expect to see the synergies and do these synergies represent in the long run cost savings to you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1264              MR. COOPER:  Madam Chair, the synergies we gain from Haliburton are tremendous in that they ‑‑ not just the experience that Christopher and his group provide to us but the infrastructure that they provide to us, whether it is in accounting or in the technical area, we have gained a lot in that area.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1265              By owning two stations, we obviously will be having some multitasking going on, allowing for us to gain some efficiencies through that and through personnel as well.  I am not saying that we will be bringing new personnel into the market into the Owen Sound station but there will definitely be some synergies gained.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1266              THE CHAIRPERSON:  What kind of multitasking?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1267              MS GRAY:  Our multitasking, just by way of reference, our program director would also be the morning ‑‑ or the afternoon drive announcer.  Our news director, as I mentioned, would be our morning show co‑host and news reader.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1268              We would have a new hire that would be a full‑time weekend/specialty programming person who would take care of The Pearl after hours as well as doing some voice tracking.  A new hire promotion assistant as well as an announcer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1269              So those are ‑‑ we have in total four multitasking positions planned.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1270              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right, but do any of these people also work for the Kincardine station or for Haliburton?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1271              MR. GROSSMAN:  Yes, and they would share those responsibilities with Kincardine as well.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1272              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And will there be any sharing of programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1273              MS GRAY:  There will be one shared program with HBG, which would be our Aboriginal programming Bomseda and that would be shared but it would include also information from Saugeen Shores and Cape Crocker.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1274              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So are there staff members who will be working exclusively for The Pearl, who won't have any other responsibilities, and who would they be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1275              MR. GROSSMAN:  Eight of the 12 people work exclusively for The Pearl.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1276              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And what would those positions be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1277              MS GRAY:  They would be the two news reporters ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1278              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Then I misunderstood.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1279              MS GRAY:  ‑‑ the news stringer ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1280              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, that is fine.  I am sorry, I misunderstood then.  I thought that the news reporter and the stringer would also be working at the Kincardine station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1281              MS GRAY:  No.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1282              MR. COOPER:  It is a busy day, Madam Chair.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1283              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1284              We will move on to CCD.  In your response to deficiencies dated August 17, you commit to an over and above CCD contribution of $10,000 annually.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1285              Will you accept this as a condition of licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1286              MR. GROSSMAN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1287              MR. COOPER:  Yes, we will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1288              THE CHAIRPERSON:  I love it when people answer that so quickly.  I dare someone to say no one day.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1289              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Further to that, you commit that 100 percent of the over and above contribution will be directed to FACTOR, although the Commercial Radio Policy requires that only 20 percent of the over and above be earmarked for FACTOR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1290              So give that this is a bit of a departure, will you accept a condition of licence that 100 percent of the over and above will be directed to FACTOR?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1291              MR. COOPER:  Yes, we will, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1292              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1293              There is one further question on CCD.  Please confirm your understanding that if licensed your station will have to contribute a basic annual CCD contribution imposed by regulation based on the station's total annual revenues and in the amounts as set out in paragraph 116 of the new Radio Policy, Public Notice CRTC‑2006‑158.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1294              MR. COOPER:  Yes, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1295              THE CHAIRPERSON:  The final line of questioning has to do with competition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1296              You are not the only applicant proposing this format.  As you know, Larche Communications is proposing a similar format or maybe you don't think it is similar at all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1297              So I would like you to comment on whether or not you see similarities with the Larche proposal, what those are or what those differences may be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1298              MR. COOPER:  Christopher.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1299              MR. GROSSMAN:  Yes, there is no question that it is very similar.  The genre, the music, the style, the ambiance of the presentation is probably the closest to us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1300              I can't comment on Paul's presentation but I can definitely comment on the fact that the benefit to the system here is clear, that we are going to strengthen and add a new ownership group to well‑known Canadian business people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1301              Obviously, we have got the architect of this station that is the top‑rated station in the market coming here to redesign or look for a new canvass for this station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1302              And obviously, I think the question you have got to ask yourself is ‑‑ you know, we are in it for the long haul.  These guys have the resources, the expertise, the connections to add a new vibrant ownership group into the broadcast system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1303              We have seen with consolidation with the company I worked for for years, Standard, CHUM, OK Group, the reality is they have to be replaced and I am excited to be working with these guys.  They are committed, crazy and resourceful.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1304              I think that if you can see a way around this, the CCD benefits and the fact that this presentation, I believe, is strong, these guys are going to add a tremendous ownership to the radio broadcast system.  I really believe that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1305              THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think you are anticipating the final question, which is always ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1306              MR. GROSSMAN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1307              THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ this is your two minutes but that is good rehearsal.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1308              THE CHAIRPERSON:  How many new commercial radio stations do you think the Owen Sound market can sustain?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1309              MR. COOPER:  Well, Madam Chair, deep down I would say one and that is us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1310              But having said that, when I look at what we have been reading, the pent‑up demand and we think the growth in the advertising dollar that it probably could take two.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1311              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And if we were to license more than one, as you are suggesting, you obviously, based on what Mr. Grossman just said, would not want us to license both you and Larche Communications?  That is the one that would have the most impact on your business plan, obviously.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1312              MR. COOPER:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1313              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Of the other two, is there one that would have the least impact on your business plan?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1314              MR. COOPER:  Probably the easy rock, easy listening, the Evanov.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1315              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Thank you, those are my questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1316              My colleagues?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1317              Commissioner del Val.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1318              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you, panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1319              I just wanted to ask you about the ‑‑ in your opening statement you referred to the Cape Crocker First Nations communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1320              I am wondering whether you have any specific initiatives around that community.  For example, in the Blackburn application they referred to funding the traditional powwow and I am wondering whether you had something like that in mind.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1321              MR. COOPER:  I don't think we do but I will turn it over to Wendy.  We do have some specific programming related to that community, I believe.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1322              MS GRAY:  Haliburton Broadcasting Group has an Aboriginal reporter who is focused solely on maintaining contact and building contacts with the Aboriginal First Nations throughout the province.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1323              So we are dedicating two hours a week to that program and she has already had contact with the two particular First Nations.  So we will share that programming and her expertise in the First Nations communities with The Pearl in Owen Sound.  She would obviously focus on the Aboriginal communities that we have in our group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1324              That being said, she is also very, very vocal and very, very active in the First Nations communities.  So she would be spending some time there and then bringing back to the ownership group suggestions about what we could do as a radio company to help and to assist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1325              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.  And for the support that your station is going to give this First Nations community, particularly in reference to Cape Crocker, do you consider that as part of your CCD initiatives or it is apart from it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1326              MS GRAY:  I consider that apart from our CCD benefits.  That is something that we would do partially as a public service and partially as a service to our Aboriginal listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1327              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1328              Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1329              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Menzies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1330              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1331              I just want to confirm for a moment that your research on the market was entirely based on BBM and your own knowledge and experience of the industry or was there anything else that I was missing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1332              MR. GROSSMAN:  No, it is based on BBM, which I think arguably would be the most accurate measurement of audience tuning in the market of Owen Sound, versus research, either demand or speculative research that would suggest that they think it might be successful.  We know that the station historically over the last couple of years has that audience in the market, as recently as the last 30 days.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1333              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  And in terms of your advertising base, you speak about repatriating listeners.  Would you be repatriating advertisers locally or would you be selling in a market much bigger than Owen Sound as far as local sales as opposed to national sales?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1334              MR. GROSSMAN:  A combination of both of those.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1335              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  A combination of both?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1336              MR. GROSSMAN:  Yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1337              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Where do you see the biggest opportunity for growth because you have indicated you probably won't have ‑‑ although I expect you to like to have a bigger impact on the local ‑‑ you want to have some kind of impact on the local market but you have indicated you wouldn't have a huge economic impact on the local market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1338              So can you just expand for me a little bit on your advertising base?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1339              MR. GROSSMAN:  I think that largely, again through our experience in launching single stations up against multi single owner clusters we have found that a lot of new advertising comes into play, a lot of disenfranchised advertisers that moved out of the radio business and looked for alternative forms to advertise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1340              And finally, obviously when you have more people in the street making calls you are going to get new advertisers that don't ever advertise radio as part of the growth of the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1341              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  So those might come from existing print advertisers?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1342              MR. GROSSMAN:  Yes, which would be the number one focus of our new sales.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1343              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay, thanks.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1344              In terms of your news operation, I am curious to know a little bit more.  With two reporters and a stringer, can you give me some idea of what your beat structure might be, or your focus?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1345              Is it cops and courts?  Are they creating original stuff?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1346              Because, if there are just two of them, it is a big area to cover; right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1347              MS COOPER:  I just happen to have an example of what a newscast would be like ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1348              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Excellent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1349              MS COOPER:  ‑‑ this morning, had we been on the air as The Pearl.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1350              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  That was a fat pitch, wasn't it?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1351              MS COOPER:  As we said, 60 to 70 percent local content of our news.  So this may be today's newscast.

"Owen Sound Council wants Grey County to restrict development in rural areas, saying that the county's growth management strategy doesn't conform to provincial policy.  It says growth and development should be focused in settlement areas.


   Hanover..."

‑‑ one of the surrounding communities:

"...plans a new arena complex to move forward.  The town is looking for proposals from architects for the design of the building.

   The Bruce Grey Catholic School Board is set to get an extra $200,000 from the province for administrative funding.

   The Mill Creek Bridge in Saugeen Shores is considered unsafe.  The mayor is asking the county to consider repair costs during their deliberations."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1352              As we mentioned in our proposal and presentation, the Owen Sound Attack is the local OHL team.  Of course, we would have coverage of their games.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1353              Unfortunately, they weren't too successful over the weekend, but we report that anyway.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1354              Then, of course, the balance of the newscast would be provincial, national and international.  Of course, today in the news the two big stories are Conrad Black being sentenced and Pickton's verdict.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1355              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  What will be your sources of national news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1356              To whom are you planning on subscribing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1357              MS GRAY:  We subscribe to Command Newswire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1358              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  I just wanted to confirm, too, that your Aboriginal Affairs reporter is a shared resource.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1359              Is that right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1360              MS GRAY:  That is a shared resource, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1361              MS COOPER:  I would like to add one thing about the news, if I could.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1362              One thing that we know, particularly from being in Kincardine ‑‑ we have truly been embraced by the community, and I love how Mike ‑‑ one of the catch phrases that he has for CIYN is that we are like a comfortable sweater.  You put us on and you leave us on all day.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1363              Honestly, where news is concerned, people want to know what is going on in their own backyard.  They need to know what is going on in their own backyard, and you can be assured that The Pearl will provide that information to the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1364              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1365              In terms of your newscasts, are they shaped in any way, in terms of ‑‑ I understand that news is news, but what you cover and what you don't cover would apply to the sort of audience you are trying to appeal to, and if I got it correctly, your median target is a 39 to 40‑year‑old male.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1366              Is that right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1367              MR. COOPER:  In music listening, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1368              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  In music listening.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1369              MR. COOPER:  I believe, in news, it would be broader than that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1370              Wendy?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1371              MS GRAY:  Obviously, as you said, news is news, and we can't ignore what is going on around the world and in our own backyard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1372              But, as far as some of our less local news stories, what we would focus on would be health matters for that particular demographic, and business matters for that particular demographic, as well.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1373              So we would work those sorts of stories in and around our newscasts, with as much local content as we could.  If there was a major health story, we would go to a local physician and get his take on it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1374              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  You identified your presence as being a new editorial voice.  How would you want people to describe your editorial voice in the marketplace?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1375              MR. COOPER:  Fresh and new, and someone that may take a different look at the community and what is going on in the community than what they have been served over the last 30 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1376              MS COOPER:  If I could respond to that, as well; being in news myself, I know that they send all of us reporters.  I meet them all the time.  We go to cover the same event.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1377              There are never two stories written exactly the same.  It all depends on your reporter that you have at the scene.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1378              So, of course, our newscasts would be totally different from Bayshore's newscast, just because it would be someone else telling that story.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1379              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1380              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Legal counsel?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1381              MS SMITH:  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1382              I have one question.  I would like to confirm that you are prepared to file with the Commission the breakdown of your projected market tuning by the end of the day December 17th, which is next Monday.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1383              MR. COOPER:  Not a problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1384              MS SMITH:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1385              THE CHAIRPERSON:  You now have your two minutes to wrap up your application and tell us why your proposal is the best one for Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1386              MR. COOPER:  Madam Chair, radio needs new ownership.  It needs vibrant and different points of view.  It needs investment, and it needs people that want to be in radio, and Danny and I are two of those people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1387              Owen Sound needs a new editorial voice, as we previously spoke of.  A local voice for rock radio listeners currently is not being served by the local operator.  We can deliver that demand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1388              We are committed to CTD, to the levels we have already set, and others.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1389              The local news and information, as Lynda alluded to, and Wendy talked about, is from a different perspective than what they have been receiving for many, many years.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1390              We are also committed to Aboriginal programming, and I think that serving the Cape Crocker and Saugeen Shores First Nations communities with the experience that Haliburton Radio Broadcasting Group brings us is a great benefit to those communities.  They have people in the marketplace dealing with the current issues they have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1391              We are providing 12 new jobs for local broadcasters, and we think that is exciting for the community, as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1392              We are repatriating advertising dollars to the local market.  We did this with Kincardine, and we can do it again with Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1393              We think we have given you a realistic, solid business plan, which would have little or no impact on the existing radio operator.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1394              We are also surrounded by Bayshore, which has Goderich now, and they have Port Elgin and Owen Sound; Blackburn, that has Wingham, and other markets that are completely surrounding us.  We need to create efficiencies and synergies and strengthen our radio group, so that someday we will be a multi‑cluster owner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1395              Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1396              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for your participation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1397              We will now take a 15‑minute break, in the hopes of resolving this microphone issue.  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1035 / Suspension à 1035

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1050 / Reprise à 1050

LISTNUM 1 \l 1398              THE SECRETARY:  We are ready to begin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1399              We will now proceed with Item 2, which is an application by Blackburn Radio Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM Commercial Radio Programming Undertaking in Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1400              The new station would operate on Frequency 92.3, Channel 222B, with an average effective radiated power of 14,635 watts, maximum effective radiated power of 29,000 watts, antenna height of 195.1 metres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1401              Appearing for the Applicant is Mr. Richard Costley White.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1402              Please introduce your colleagues.  You will then have 20 minutes for your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 1403              MR. COSTLEY WHITE:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1404              Good morning, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, CRTC Staff, members of our industry, and all in attendance today.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1405              My name is Richard Costley White, owner, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Blackburn Radio Incorporated.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1406              Before we start our presentation‑in‑chief, I would like to present the colleagues who are with me here today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1407              To my right is John Weese, the General Manager for the CKNX stations, who will quarterback the question period.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1408              John has been in media for 27 years, and with Blackburn since 1990.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1409              To his right is Gina Lorentz, the Program Director for 101.7 FM, The One, our Wingham‑based AC station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1410              Gina has over 20 years in radio, with a background in both news and programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1411              Before coming to us, Gina was the news director for 570 News in Kitchener.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1412              To Gina's right is Ray Baynton, the veteran of our team, who has been with our Wingham stations for the past 35 years.  For 32 of those years he has been our News Director.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1413              To Ray's right is Andrew Campbell, our Agricultural Director and Farm Reporter.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1414              Andrew has been with us for three years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1415              We have operated an Agricultural Department for over 50 years to the extended Huron, Grey, Wellington and Bruce counties, probably one of the few stations in Canada to do so.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1416              Finally, beside Andrew is Joan Moore, Community Marketing Representative, from whom you will hear more later.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1417              In the second row, to your left, is Nancy Burton, Accounting and Administration Supervisor, who has 25 years with Blackburn.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1418              Next to her is Mark Kassof, who conducted the research that led us to our choice of format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1419              Next to him is Rob Enders, our Director of Engineering for midwestern Ontario, who can address any technical issues that you may have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1420              Rob has 20 years in the broadcasting industry, and came to us nine years ago from Q107 in Toronto.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1421              Beside him is Jason Ploegman.  Jason's background is in the Computer Science field.  He has been with Blackburn since 2005.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1422              In the spring of 2007, Jason moved into his current role, responsible for the development of new emerging technologies for Blackburn as they relate to broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1423              In particular, he has been involved in our website connection to new and emerging artists in Windsor, and in our proposed website for The Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1424              In our folder we have provided a copy of our remarks, the seating plan of our panel, and a number of documents to which we will be referring during our presentation and during the question period.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1425              It is with great hope that we appear before you this week with two applications.  Today's presentation is for a new FM radio station, to bring our brand of community‑oriented service to Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1426              Later this week you will hear our application for a new FM service in Windsor.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1427              I would like to tell you a bit about our company to give you an idea of who we are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1428              As a fifth generation Blackburn, I am proud of my family's heritage in Canadian media, beginning with the London Free Press, here in London, in 1852, and in radio in 1922.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1429              Our radio operations grew up within a well‑established newspaper publishing company, and news and local reflection is, quite simply, our culture.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1430              Blackburn's philosophy and operating realities rest upon and reflect three basic principles:  service to the community; editorial independence and program quality; and autonomous, locally‑based station management.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1431              We believe that these principles align good business practice with fundamental public policy expectations.  They also reflect the ethics traditionally practised by the Blackburn family in the operation of media.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1432              Today that commitment is upheld in our small group of stations in southwestern and midwestern Ontario, and I am personally firmly committed to continuing and building on this successful operating philosophy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1433              Consumers have many choices, but radio's most relevant function continues to matter:  to provide information to the community in which it broadcasts.  That is why Blackburn Radio has placed such a strong emphasis on local news in our application.  In a world of satellite and internet radio, local radio's advantage is that it is there every day and can be mobilized quickly in a crisis.  That is why our stations have large newsrooms, with more staff than in most radio stations.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1434              In two cases we have dedicated agricultural reporters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1435              Later, Joan Moore will talk to you about some of what we do beyond news in Wingham, and the approach we want to bring to Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1436              On the strength of this philosophy, Blackburn Radio has forged a reputation of trusted service and quality broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1437              Our proposed investment in news and information, Canadian Content Development, local programming and capital investment underscores our sincere desire to establish a Blackburn‑brand radio service for the Owen Sound market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1438              And now to present our specific sounds for the Owen Sound market, I am pleased to introduce John Weese.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1439              MR. WEESE:  Thank you, Richard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1440              Good morning, Madam Chair, Commissioners and CRTC Staff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1441              CKNX Radio has been providing service to midwestern Ontario for 81 years from our facilities in Wingham, starting with our AM station, and then adding an FM station in 1977, and another in 2005.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1442              Wingham is a small town of approximately 3,200 people, and it is about dead centre of our broadcasting region.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1443              Our Wingham station's role in the lives of citizens within midwestern Ontario, who form dozens of communities that comprise our service area, is critical.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1444              CKNX Radio has a long and proud legacy of comprehensive and dedicated service.  It is in our DNA.  Today, CKNX Radio provides this kind of coverage with eight full‑time reporters, as well as seven correspondents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1445              We employ community marketing experts in addition to a full complement of traditional radio station staff.  And you will find similar levels and roles in the Blackburn stations in Leamington, Sarnia and Chatham.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1446              Owen Sound is a market that we believe is ready for a new radio service, a new local choice in musical format, news and information, and a competitor for local advertising.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1447              We have provided you maps from BBM showing the Owen Sound BBM Central, and we have shown the contours that our proposed station imposed as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1448              We estimate that the market will serve just a little over 100,000 residents.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1449              The market of Belleville, Ontario has a similar population, and it is served by five commercial stations and two ownership groups.  In Owen Sound there are three stations, with a single ownership group.  If we look at the most important predicator of radio revenues, retail sales, they skew 73 percent higher than the national average in the census agglomeration of Owen Sound, and 55 percent higher in the city, according to Financial Post Markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1450              Yet, Owen Sound only has three radio formats locally:  a news/talk AM station that plays oldies, a hot AC FM, and a country FM.  No wonder there is significant out‑of‑town tuning, or out‑of‑market tuning.  According to the most recent BBM ratings, released last Monday, out‑of‑market stations receive 56.3 percent of hours tuned by persons 12‑plus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1451              We knew that the market could support a new station, and our experience in building successful community‑based radio told us that some kind of rock‑based format would be the right choice.  However, we have learned over the years to verify the actual needs of the market with research, so we commissioned Mark Kassof to conduct research on the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1452              Mark.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1453              MR. KASSOF:  Thanks, John.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1454              Good morning, Commissioners.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1455              We completed 300 telephone interviews with 18 to 64‑year‑old radio listeners drawn throughout the coverage area.  First we studied listening behaviour.  Then we probed listeners' interests in nine different music formats, and whether they could identify a present station as delivering that format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1456              A key statistic is what I call "positive interest", the percent who rate a format 4 or 5 on a scale, where 1 means they would never listen to that format and 5 means they would listen to it all the time they listen to radio.  In Owen Sound we found the greatest positive interest in various forms of rock music:  classic rock, mainstream rock, and classic hits.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1457              But the crucial calculation is what I call the "percent of format void".  This is the percentage of the entire audience that both has a positive interest in a format and cannot associate any station with the format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1458              The percentage of format void analysis revealed the biggest voids to be older rock‑based music, sixties and seventies oldies at 13 percent, and classic hits at 12 percent.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1459              This led me to recommend a broad‑based classics format, mainly seventies and eighties, but including some mid to late‑sixties gold.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1460              Here to explain how the format will be put into practice is Gina Lorentz.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1461              MS LORENTZ:  Thanks, Mark.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1462              Good morning, Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1463              We took the format conclusion that Mark provided us and started building an exciting station that we have christened "The Sound", 92.3 FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1464              We believe The Sound will be an illuminating source of tremendous entertainment, a trusted voice for news and information, and a generous and involved community citizen and partner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1465              The Sound will provide a rock‑based classic hits format, uptempo, bright, instantly recognizable, and the very best classic hits from the seventies, eighties and early nineties, with a bit of spice from the sixties and today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1466              The core of this format will be rock hits from artists like Neil Young, Tom Cochrane and Red Rider, BTO, Bryan Adams, Mellenkamp, Springsteen and Elton John.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1467              We will not play the more middle‑of‑the‑road songs from these artists, nor the hardest rock.  Therefore, the sound will reach a broad audience of men and women age 35 to 54, with slightly more men than women.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1468              We will keep the station engaging to our listeners with a range of special programming:  lunchtime features that will put members of the community from the hockey team, the Owen Sound Attack, to the mayor, to listeners with great ideas to be the music director for an hour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1469              "The Sound Survivor" will be a feature that will pit two classic hit songs against each other, with the audience voting who moves on to the next week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1470              "I Can't Believe I Heard the Whole Thing" will provide a whole side of a classic rock album.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1471              "The Weekend House Party", on Friday and Saturday nights, will provide party music from a variety of classic hit genres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1472              This kind of format usually does not play a lot of contemporary music.  However, we recognize the importance the Commission has given to supporting emerging artists, and we have developed a number of responses to play our part.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1473              We have committed to 40 percent Canadian content, both during the broadcast week and from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m.  No other applicant for this market has done so.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1474              We will do this by playing compatible contemporary rock music, as well as the great Canadian artists from the past that I mentioned earlier.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1475              We propose a regular feature entitled "Sound Sessions".  This one‑hour weekly program will focus on new and emerging artists, with a special effort to promote local and regional artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1476              As we do in Windsor, we will have an "Inde Artist" section on our website that will expose and promote local and regional emerging artists.  Jason Ploegman has spearheaded this initiative, and will be pleased to explain it further during the question period, if you wish.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1477              We have budgeted $3.9 million over the course of the seven‑year term of licence for programming expenses.  That is almost twice the amount of the next closest applicant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1478              This is primarily for two reasons.  We will hire more people, particularly in news, and The Sound will recruit and retain seasoned announcers, men and women who can best connect with our target audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1479              Here to tell you about our plans for news is Ray Baynton.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1480              MR. BAYNTON:  Thank you, Gina, and good morning, Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1481              The Sound will offer full service, comprehensive news coverage of the Owen Sound area with four fulltime news reporters including an onsite veteran news director and also four field correspondents that includes a dedicated First Nations reporter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1482              Given the wide range of territory we serve from our Wingham stations with no real urban core but we still need to be the local station to many communities, we developed the field correspondent idea to ensure that we have knowledgeable local reporters to cover their communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1483              While we won't have the same territorial challenge in the Owen Sound area, we believe that having correspondents in Meaford, Thornbury, Saugeen Shores and in Wiarton to cover the South Bruce Peninsula will provide the information that our listeners need.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1484              For fulltime news people it means that we can provide solid news coverage throughout the week and on weekends.  It also means that our reporters can develop beats covering areas such as health and environment, arts and culture and others.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1485              Our spoken word commitment exceeds 13 hours weekly.  Of that eight hours and 18 minutes will be dedicated to news reports and that includes agricultural reporting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1486              Our connection to the community will go well beyond our news involvement.  Speaking in more detail on that here is Joan Moore.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1487              MS MOORE:  Thank you, Ray, and good morning, Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1488              I am a community marketing representative for Blackburn's Wingham base stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1489              Community marketing exists to super serve not‑for‑profit organizations and is a great way of building awareness to your organization and event.  We offer this stakeholder group modest affordable and effective marketing plans that include a premium advertising schedule, on air promotion of their events, live and recorded interviews and a web‑based platform that can be accessed by the public as well as our announcers.  In addition, we can provide MCs and personalities that will perform live reports from your event.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1490              I was hired in 2004 as the first dedicated marketing representative for this new initiative in the Wingham's stations.  We now dedicate two community marketing representatives who have been trained to specifically specialize in serving the needs of our not‑for‑profit groups.  This has proven to be very effective for non‑for‑profit organizations of all dimensions and purpose.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1491              Our clients include county health units, the United Way and their umbrella agencies, the Canadian Cancer Society, agricultural affairs, fundraising concerts and a range of other like organizations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1492              We measure our success on the success of the event.  A few examples would be the Canadian Cancer Society's annual Relay for Life.  Not only do we help promote and sponsor the relays in several communities in our area, we also volunteer our hours and provide a team in five of the overnight events.  In 2007 we helped raise well over half a million dollars for cancer research.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1493              We also were instrumental in the phenomenal success of the Town of Minto Canadian Redneck Games, which is an annual festival that began in 2006.  We assisted with their marketing plan, provided MCs and personalities.  They were rated the number one festival in Ontario for July 2006 by CBC Radio.  In addition, they won two festival and events Ontario Achievement Awards for the best new festival and the best community involvement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1494              Probably our largest success in this area is our annual Healthcare Heroes Radiothon for the area's hospitals.  The folks in the audience in the black t‑shirts are here to show their support for us.  They represent the 14 hospitals in our area that have benefited from the millions of dollars we have helped raise for them.  This year we raised $900,000 in a single day, bringing us to a total of $3.5 million in five years, a record we believe is unmatched by any other Canadian radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1495              The Sound will bring the same attention to the community in Owen Sound, including community marketing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1496              We will also reach out to the First Nations communities and extended market at Cape Croker and Saugeen.  We will do this in a number of ways both on air and off the microphone.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1497              We will hire a dedicated correspondent to report on the events in the aboriginal community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1498              A Sunday evening program "Sound Circles" will focus on the music and achievements of the aboriginal community.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1499              We will provide support to the Cape Croker Annual Traditional Pow Wow with $5,000 for music and dance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1500              And we will hire an aboriginal broadcasting student as a station intern.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1501              Now to speak to Canadian content development initiatives, and to sum up, here is John Weese.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1502              MR. WEESE:  Thanks, Joan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1503              In addition to our annual contributions to FACTOR which will amount to a little over $100,000, $102,000 over the licence term, we propose the four local initiatives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1504              Stars of the Sound will fund summer concerts by local and regional artists in the downtown area of Owen Sound at venues at a cost of $17,400 each year.  We will record the concerts and make them available to the artists to act as promotional tools as well as providing space on our website for them to promote their activities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1505              The Georgian Bay Folk Society will receive $20,000 annually for a new stage and that will feature local artists, and for a series of musician workshops.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1506              The Kiwanis will receive $12,000 annually for scholarship awards tied to the Kiwanis Festival and to host notable Canadian artists.  And as Joan has already noted, our annual commitment to the Cape Croker Pow Wow and the funding of artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1507              Blackburn and CKNX Radio have a proud history of service to a wide range of communities in mid‑western Ontario.  We have always believed that the key to our business success is community service and our attention to strong news departments, community development and to research has meant that we have done well by doing good.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1508              We believe that we have provided you with an application that best meets the evaluation criteria.  Owen Sound can easily absorb a new rock‑based classic hits station.  We will provide viable competition to the only local broadcaster which has three stations in Owen Sound and a number of regional stations.  At the same time, The Sound will take most of its audience out of the out‑of‑market stations, particularly our Wingham‑based rock station.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1509              Blackburn is the only applicant in this market who conducted format research that tested a wide variety of formats in order to seek out the largest unfulfilled void.  The Sound will serve a large group of men and women, age 35 to 54, who currently tune elsewhere for their favourite music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1510              We propose the strongest commitments to our local reflection of any applicant for Owen Sound.  Our projected expenditures on programming are almost double the next nearest applicant at $3.9 million over seven years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1511              We propose a news department of four fulltime staff, supplemented by four regional correspondents and will broadcast over eight hours of news each week and 13 hours of spoken word.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1512              We will program 40 percent of Canadian content during the broadcast week and between 6:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m.   This will be further supported by a number of special programs focusing on local and regional artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1513              We will donate almost a half a million dollars over the term of the licence to Canadian content development.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1514              We have a good team of dedicated professionals with experience in providing quality radio and if you grant this licence to Blackburn you will not be disappointed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1515              We would like to leave you with this sample of The Sound.

‑‑‑ Musical interlude / Intermède musical


LISTNUM 1 \l 1516              MR. WEESE:  Thank you.  And thank you for your attention this morning.  We would welcome your questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1517              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Weese and Mr. Costley White, and your colleagues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1518              I will ask Commissioner del Val to begin the questioning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1519              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you, panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1520              As I read your application I think one of the key elements of your particular application is the repatriation from your own station, The Bull.  So I would just like to get a little bit of background information about that before we go into the specifics of the application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1521              Now, you heard this morning from The Pearl that the latest figures shows a 24 percent, 12‑plus tuning.  I am not sure if I got that correct.  Can you comment on that, please?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1522              MR. WEESE:  Yes, I think where they may have gotten their information as they were preparing prior to the most recent release ‑‑ the most recent release of BBM which all audience 12‑plus indicates that The Bull, the Wingham rock‑based station, took a share of 13.5 percent.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1523              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay, 13.5 from the Owen Sound market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1524              MR. WEESE:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1525              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Now, what about ‑‑ but currently The Bull does derive some revenue from the Owen Sound market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1526              MR. WEESE:  Most certainly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1527              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  And could you tell us what percentage of your revenues would be from the Owen Sound market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1528              MR. WEESE:  I think the Board should look at ‑‑ of our Wingham‑based radio stations it would represent ‑‑ what we take out of Owen Sound would represent around 10 percent of the total revenues of our Wingham‑based radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1529              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1530              So Mr. Kassof, I was quite interested in your research and, you know, basically I want to explore a bit more about the basis of the optimism that the repatriation will be from Bull rather than from Bayshore's three stations.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1531              So I was looking at your study and on the applicant's supplementary brief, page 21, and you are talking about the core or the P1 listeners to classic hits format listening to less radio than average.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1532              MR. KASSOF:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1533              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Yes, and then from your deficiency response and all, I gather that ‑‑ is it from a lack of station association that there ‑‑ it simply isn't around, or is there something about the demographics of the group that you are targeting that that group listens to radio less?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1534              MR. KASSOF:  Well, I think if we look at what they like, which is essentially older music, seventies, eighties, a touch of sixties, there is really no station available on the market, even The Bull that really delivers that mix of music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1535              You know, I strongly suspect based on the research that they think The Bull would be a little bit too hard rocking for them.  I think that they would think that The Bull plays too much current, new cutting‑edge rock for them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1536              So really if they don't like country where are they going to go?  So there is really no station that's really serving them.  So hopefully we would see an increase in their time spent listening.  But right now if there is no station that really hits your needs you are going to spend less time with radio.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1537              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  So you are comfortable concluding that, given all of the factors, that is the key reason for them listening to radio less, that there is no station that really serves specifically their needs?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1538              MR. KASSOF:  Yes, because if we look at just their demographic group, strictly as a demographic no matter what they are interested in, they are not listening to radio less than average.  But these particular people who want this kind of radio station are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1539              So yes, I think it's a fair assumption that they are really not getting what they want.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1540              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Now, and also you heard from The Pearl today in their opening statements and their questions with Madam Chair on what they ‑‑ their plans on being very local in order to cater to the Owen Sound market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1541              Now, what can you do that is more local than local ownership?  Like how would you set yourself apart from, say, The Pearl's?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1542              MR. WEESE:  Yes, I would like to take that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1543              There is a couple of ways when we talk about programming and specifically we can talk about our news content.  I would like to ask news director Ray Baynton who could perhaps talk a little bit about the local nature of our intended news coverage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1544              Ray?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1545              MR. BAYNTON:  Thank you, John.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1546              The amount of local news that we are talking about is over eight hours and I think that you will find that significantly larger than what the competitors are offering.  That's going to be largely focused on the area and that's because we are going to have four fulltime people there.  We are going to have correspondents who are going to be out and covering the region, and we are going to have the airtime to be as comprehensive and detailed as we need to be for the market.  And that's above and beyond additional surveillance material that will be outside of that as well as some of the community service initiatives that we are doing as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1547              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  So do you think you could be more local than a local owner?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1548              MR. BAYNTON:  I think you have to determine what you mean by a local owner because to me it's not a matter of ‑‑ if you will excuse this, Richard ‑‑ it's not a matter of who is wearing the suit in the front office.  It's a matter of who is doing what on the air, and the people on the air will be local.  They will be people who live in the market.  They are going to be the people who play in the market and do everything else in the market.  They know the market.  So what they put on the air is what's going to be local.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1549              And all of our stations, all of our Blackburn operations are locally managed.  So that's where the local is going to come from.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1550              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1551              Now, when I was looking at the stats for this market and I can see that Bayshore and Blackburn have been competing neck and neck for years and very successfully.  And right now you are number two.  So why is that not enough for you?  Why do you actually want to be in the Owen Sound market and serving the market from an Owen Sound station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1552              MR. WEESE:  I would like to, in a second, have Mark Kassof ‑‑ might talk about ‑‑ I will ask him to speak about some people in that population that are not being served presently.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1553              We believe that we can bring an exciting new format that's not there now and that we can serve listeners and make the listening experience fuller for the market of Owen Sound.  And our community‑based initiatives we believe will enrich the quality of life of people in Owen Sound, and we believe we are quite capable of doing that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1554              And to talk about the other served (1112‑5:40) needs I would like to ask Mark Kassof to maybe talk a little more on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1555              MR. KASSOF:  Sure.  I mean we looked at this percent of format void which is essentially listeners who want something and aren't getting it, and the percent of format void for classic hits was 12 percent; for sixties, seventies, oldies was 13 percent.  Those were the two highest of the nine formats we tested.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1556              So that's a significant number of listeners in this market that aren't getting what they want.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1557              MR. WEESE:  Also, to add to that, Gina Lorentz has some information too that might be helpful.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1558              MS LORENTZ:  When we looked at BBM out of market tuning in the target demo that we are proposing, 35 to 54, 30 percent of women are listening to stations outside of the Owen Sound market and over 60 percent of men are tuning out of market.  So that's why we are proposing a broad‑based classic hits format that appeals to both men and women.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1559              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  On your revenue projections they are quite optimistic.  What is the basis of your optimism?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1560              MR. WEESE:  Well, basically we took a look at ‑‑ first of all, we think we are pretty good operators.  However, studying the market we discovered in our research from Financial Post markets, in addition to looking at Stats Canada information on retail sales for some of the areas that weren't included in the FP markets that retail sales are very, very healthy in that particular region and retail sales themselves are higher per capita in the city and in the immediate region than they are in other parts of the country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1561              Our calculations indicate to us that there is an un‑mined revenue source, radio revenue source that exceeds $900,000 in the market.  We believe that it would be foolish for us to believe that we are going to take all of that within the first one, two years of that.  However, we do show rapid growth throughout the period of seven years and as the markets grow we certainly intend to grow as well, along with our inventory.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1562              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  That just reminded me that in your supplementary brief you did ‑‑ oh, here ‑‑ that you are anticipating generating 80 percent of your total year to revenues from sources other than existing local stations.  So where would the ‑‑ where do you see those sources?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1563              MR. WEESE:  Well, certainly from the out‑of‑market radio stations and, unfortunately for us, but we would sort of chew off our arm a bit as far as our revenues from The Bull radio station because we would certainly take market share from them and revenue does follow that.  So there are ‑‑ a good healthy part ‑‑ I believe we have listed 25 percent ‑‑ will come from out‑of‑market stations and that will be predominantly us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1564              We also listed new business as well.  I believe we have that to the tune of 10 percent.  And that new business is going to come we think from three different areas up in our area with the Bruce nuclear plant and Ontario Power Generation and wind farming is bringing on a new stream of advertising because they want to be good corporate citizens and partner up in that area.  We believe that's a good ‑‑ great revenue source.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1565              Community marketing that Joan talked about earlier provides new revenue opportunities as well and also I think we have listed in there as expanding business.  With a new radio station player you can understand that advertisers will be using the traditional stations they have always used but they want to reach the entire market, recognizing there is a new player with a new audience.  And so they would want to reach the entire market.  So they will expand their budgets as well, and that will represent a good percentage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1566              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  So have you actually pursued any of these new sources that you have referred to, to find out their level of commitment?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1567              MR. WEESE:  Our experience today, and with our Wingham‑based stations those groups are certainly part of our market.  And we are in constant negotiations talking with the energy groups to expand their budgets.  We do get a bit of money from them but it is growing as those companies are growing along the coast as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1568              And community marketing does represent some modest dollars but good dollars for us as well.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1569              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  And I take it ‑‑ is there a significant proportion of these new businesses in Owen Sound that are currently already advertising with you in your other markets?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1570              MR. WEESE:  There will be some duplication of advertisers and we would like to think that we would be able to retain their ad dollars to some degree.  But we do realize that the day that we put out our shingle for the new station that they are going to be converting a lot of those dollars over to the new station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1571              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1572              Now, I think your projection also ‑‑ now, Bayshore's CIXK currently has an 11 percent share.  Now, what is your estimate of the tuning that you will take away from Bayshore, that station, and the other two of Bayshore's stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1573              MR. WEESE:  Yes, in total of their three stations they have in the market we believe that we are only going to take five point shares from them, which is around 20 percent or so.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1574              The biggest hit that we are going to take is from the out‑of‑market rock station from Wingham and that's where we are going to get the majority of our shares.  So we would really have minimal impact on the three stations that Bayshore has in that market.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1575              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Yes, and I believe that Mr. Kassof has sort of explained in your research and why ‑‑ how you calculated the format you chose would have the smallest impact on the incumbents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1576              MR. WEESE:  Yes, and we would be most interested in sharing that.  Would you like to hear from Mr. Kassof on that point?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1577              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Yes, please.  Yes, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1578              MR. WEESE:  Mark?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1579              MR. KASSOF:  In terms of the ratings projections and how we do that?  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1580              Well, you know one of the crucial questions in one of these research projects is which station do you listen to most, which corresponds most closely with audience shares as a service such as BBM would reflect?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1581              So we ask that.  We ask that right now, which station are you listening to most?  And then, in terms of doing a projection, the key is to figure out which station are they going to listen to most after this new station launches.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1582              So what we do is we look at people, in this case, who had a positive interest in the kind of music this station will play, who weren't passionate about any of the other kinds of formats that we tested.  So in other words, if they liked classic hits, but they were big country fans, we are not calling that person a potential P1 listener.  That person is not going to say that they listen to this station most even though they may sample it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1583              So once we have identified respondents who will be new P1 listeners for this new station, we move them from whatever station they were at to the new station and then recalculate share.  And, by doing, that we projected a 16 per cent share for the new station. And, again, most of that would be definitely be coming from The Bull.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1584              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1585              And going to your formats, what do you see would be the key differences between your format and the formats of the three incumbent stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1586              MR. WEESE:  Okay, very good.  Quite a bit of difference, actually.  And I would like to ask Gina Lorentz if she wouldn't mind talking about some of the differences in the formats.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1587              MS LORENTZ:  Thank you.  The three existing formats owned by Bayshore right now in Owen Sound's central market, there is an FM country station which is night and day compared to the classic hits format that we are proposing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1588              FM Hot AC station, it is not a rock‑based format, its focus is based on current music and the best hits of the 1990s and this decade.  Only similarity, there is a noon‑hour lunch program on Mix 106 which is a Hot AC that does a retro show, so there is some 1980s music during that hour.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1589              The AM station CFOS, it is primarily a news information sports station with some oldies.  There are various talk shows through the week and on the weekends, some sports programming.  And the music that is played is predominantly 1950s, 1960s and early 1970s and has a lighter touch than the classic hits rock‑based format that we are proposing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1590              Our classic hits would focus on 1970s, 1980s, some early 1990s harder edge.  Additionally, our application would adhere to the non‑hit regulation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1591              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  What about the difference between your format and those proposed by the other applicants?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1592              MR. WEESE:  Gina.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1593              MS LORENTZ:  Thank you, I can pick‑up on that as well.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1594              As has been discussed, there is currently no rock‑based format in Owen Sound.  Our Blackburn station, The Bull, does get a decent share and there are two proposals before you for a mainstream classic rock hybrid application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1595              There are some commonalities between a classic hits and rock station.  Shared artists could include; Aerosmith, Rolling Stones, Journey, Pink Floyd, Foreigner.  There are also artists you would not hear on a rock format that would appear on a classic hits format; Phil Collins, Chicago, Hall & Oates, Pat Benetar, Rod Stewart and early Elton John.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1596              Also, songs on The Bull are on the other competing applicants' proposing rock formats that you would not hear on a classic hits station and that would include; Black Sabbath, Ozzy Osborne, Jimi Hendrix and no new rock like Foo Fighters, Velvet Revolver or White Stripes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1597              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  And I think that you did touch on ‑‑ I am sorry, you had something to add?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1598              MR. WEESE:  Oh, no.  The only thing I was going to add as well too is, in addition to the musical formats that we would play, that our news content too is considerably higher and that would set us apart from the other applicants as well.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1599              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Just going back.  I believe you had given a brief explanation of the difference between The Bull and the format of the new station.  And The Bull is a little bit harder rock?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1600              MS LORENTZ:  Yes, its play list would include the new artists that I mentioned; Foo Fighters, Lincoln Park.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1601              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Now, what is it that Blackburn plans to do differently or better with this Owen Sound station than it does already with The Bull and in order to attract the Owen Sound audience?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1602              MR. WEESE:  Right.  Well, for one thing, the format would be more broad‑based in nature and we would be able to satisfy the listening habits of more women than we would be able to accomplish with The Bull as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1603              We also believe that this format and part of the points that we would take from The Bull is that we would be able to better satisfy some of the male listeners as well in the overall audience by playing music this is more germane to their appetite as well as giving them a lot more local news and information.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1604              The Bull has cursory news coverage of Owen Sound and areas, it pertains to our area. This station here would dedicate 75 per cent of the focus on news and events happening within Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1605              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1606              I have a few questions on your CCD contribution.  You have heard Madam Chair's, this morning, question Bayshore referring to the 2006‑158 public notice and paragraph 116 talking about the basic annual CCD contribution.  Do you understand that?  I can summarize that for you if you need.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1607              MR. WEESE:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1608              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  So stations with total revenues in a previous broadcast year of less than $625,000 will make a fixed contribution of $500.  And then stations having revenues between $625,000 and $1,250,000 will make a fixed contribution of $1,000.  And stations with total revenues exceeding $1,250,000 in a previous year will contribute $1,000 plus 0.5 per cent of the portion of the previous year's total revenues that exceed $1,250,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1609              MR. WEESE:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1610              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  You understand and accept that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1611              MR. WEESE:  Yes, we do, yes.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1612              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1613              MR. WEESE:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1614              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Now, on page 11 of your supplementary brief, in the second complete paragraph and the last sentence, you were referring to a transitionary condition of licence when you were talking about the 60 per cent of basic amount each year to FACTOR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1615              I am just trying to pull that up on my screen.  Do you see that?  On page 11 of your ‑‑ it starts with, "Blackburn proposes a substantial contribution.."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1616              MR. WEESE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1617              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1618              MR. WEESE:  Yes, I do see that, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1619              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  And the last two sentences:

"..60 per cent of the basic amount each year will be contributed to FACTOR.  We would accept a transitionary condition of licence." (As Read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 1620              I don't really understand what you mean by transitionary.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1621              MR. WEESE:  Well, to be perfectly honest, I don't have that answer for you right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1622              Richard, do you have anything to add to that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1623              MR. COSTLEY WHITE:  I think it just reflects the fact that the regulations are in sort of a transitionary mode from the previous set of regs to the current set.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1624              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you for the clarification.  But the bottom line is that you will accept that as a condition of licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1625              MR. COSTLEY WHITE:  Yes, we will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1626              MR. WEESE:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1627              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Now, on one of your CCD initiatives on the Cape Croker Traditional Pow Wow ‑‑ now I think you are probably aware that, with the commercial radio policy that we have just referred to, in 2006, the focus is for the support of development of Canadian musical and spoken‑word talent.  And so initiatives such as visual arts and dance they don't qualify anymore.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1628              So I just want to find out more about this Cape Croker Traditional Pow Wow.  What is it about, how do you think it does qualify and why don't we start there?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1629              MR. WEESE:  Okay, sure.  We had a couple of meetings with some people in Cape Croker to try to get their perspective of what their needs are when it comes to the Pow Wow.  With that event, they import a lot of people from all over Canada to come to that event and it is becoming increasingly difficult for people to come because of associated costs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1630              We believe that we can stay within the regulations on that by making sure that that money that we forward goes directly to pay the talent that will be performing and, specifically, those who will be singing as part of their performance.  So it is more than dance and visual arts and so on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1631              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  What proportion of that festival is dance and what is music?  Is it easy to separate?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1632              MR. WEESE:  I have to be honest with you, I have never attended a pow wow.  I don't know.  My understanding of it is that the have a celebration of the culture, there is a lot of dance to it, but there is also some singing that is part of that event.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1633              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  And would your play be to broadcast the singing and the spoken word portion or..?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1634              MR. WEESE:  That is certainly a wonderful idea and one that we would most certainly entertain.  They do have their own radio station in Cape Croker and we would want to make sure that we don't interfere with whatever their programming plans are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1635              And just on that note with the Cape Croker radio station, we have toured their facility and we have talked to their coordinator and we believe ‑‑ we didn't put it in the application, because it doesn't fall under CCD ‑‑ but just as a side note, we are very eager to help them with their very humble broadcasting centre that they have and to lend expertise as well as equipment to what they are doing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1636              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you. In the even that that portion of the initiative does not qualify as eligible CCD, what would be your proposal for that portion of the contribution?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1637              MR. WEESE:  What we would do if that does not qualify?  We would make sure that the Cape Croker Pow Wow people do receive the money anyway and that amount of money would be added in addition and would go to FACTOR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1638              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay, great, thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1639              I don't have any questions on specifics of your programming.  You have quite a detailed program on your spoken word and all.  Now, there are no changes that you anticipate from the time you filed the application and today on your spoken word and your local programming plans, are there?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1640              MR. WEESE:  No, there is no changes at all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1641              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  I have now one last question for Mr. Enders.  I took a look at the intervention from Bayshore and part of the intervention has to do with the technical aspects of Blackburn's application.  And mainly, the portion, what you have applied for, will not be sufficient to cover the areas that you want to cover and, therefore, we would be looking immediately at another application for us for changes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1642              I was interested in Mr. Enders' response as to give us some assurance that the frequencies and the technical parameters that the applicant has put forward is sufficient to support their application as it stands.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1643              MR. ENDERS:  Sure, I can answer that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1644              When we started the preparation for this application our consultants were asked to find the best channel for us to use, and Channel 222, 92.3 was the one chosen.  We have, in our application, maximized that channel to its full capacity and that is what our business plan is built upon.  So there is no intention to come back and ask for repeaters or other methods to expand the coverage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1645              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Are there any other alternate frequencies that would be feasible for you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1646              MR. ENDERS:  Yes, they identified a second Channel 272, which is 102.3 MHz and it has a similar coverage, although it has more interference issues to deal with, so this is the primary channel to choose.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1647              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you. I am sure Madam Chair will be asking you to give a last pitch.  I will postpone the next question, but basically I would like you to address it at some point, why you, why you are the best for repatriation and, out of all these fabulous applicants, why you?  So should we postpone that to..?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1648              MR. WEESE:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1649              COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1650              Those are my questions, thank you, Madam Chair.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1651              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Menzies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1652              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1653              I just have some quick questions and then another one that is maybe a bit more complicated.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1654              In your newsroom the presentation said you have four people, but then it referred to one experienced news director, plus four.  Is the news director included in those four?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1655              MR. BAYNTON:  The news director is included in those four, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1656              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  So there is a director and three reporters, one of whom is specializing on Aboriginal affairs?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1657              MR. BAYNTON:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1658              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  No?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1659              MR. BAYNTON:  No, the Aboriginal reporter is one of our additional four correspondents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1660              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1661              MR. BAYNTON:  Okay?  The four full‑time, including the news director, are the people who are actually working in the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1662              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  Are they going to cover shifts right through the week?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1663              MR. BAYNTON:  Yes, through the week, through the weekend and ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 1664              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  All seven days?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1665              MR. BAYNTON:  ‑‑ they will also be doing reporting as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1666              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Is it a 24‑hour cycle or..?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1667              MR. BAYNTON:  A 6A until 6P.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1668              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  6A until 6P?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1669              MR. BAYNTON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1670              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay, thanks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1671              MR. BAYNTON:  I should, possibly, just mention that there will be the opportunity for us to go live during the off hours as well.  We have got two things planned for that.  One of them is high school intern who would be in the station in the evenings who would be able to handle the incoming calls and deal with anything that is going on and then call in news staff, as required.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1672              The other is what we do in the Wingham stations, and that is we have an on‑call editor who has a pager, actually it is a Blackberry now, and he can access all the wire services and any phone calls that come into the newsroom and so on.  So he can respond and get back in the news room and get back on the air live if anything happens after hours as well.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1673              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  In terms of your research, a survey of 300 people, what is the margin of error on a survey of 300 people?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1674              MR. BAYNTON:  Mark Kassof.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1675              MR. KASSOF:  Just a second here, I have got the calculation standing by.  The worst case margin of error on a sample of 300 for the total sample would be 5.66 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1676              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  And what would it be on the breakouts?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1677              MR. KASSOF:  Higher.  I mean, it would depend on ‑‑ each breakout has its own cell size, so you would have to figure out each one individually.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1678              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  So plus or minus 9 if I break it out into gender, for instance?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1679              MR. KASSOF:  7.7.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1680              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  7.7, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1681              If this market were to be opened up, how many licences do you think it could handle?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1682              MR. WEESE:  One comfortably, for sure, and one that would be very healthy and one that would be viable and one that would be able to live to a full service commitment.  I would be concerned that if two were licensed that it would have impact on the existing broadcaster as well as the other new entity into the marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1683              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  So one?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1684              MR. MR WEESE:  I am thinking one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1685              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  I am curious to know about your strategy regarding The Bull.  What impact would this, yours or in that sense I guess others, but yours particularly, as you own it, have on The Bull?  It appears like you are prepared to partially cannibalize your audience at The Bull, I guess the idea being if somebody is going to eat it, it might as well be you.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1686              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  But what kind of an impact would that have on your operation in Wingham?  Because usually if market share falls revenue might fall, which means cost containment and I think we all know what that means.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1687              MR. MR WEESE:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1688              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  So can you just expand on your strategy regarding that?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1689              MR. MR WEESE:  I would be happy to.  And you are absolutely right, we do cannibalize ourselves a bit on that.  In fact, we have listed in our brief as to what we believe will be where our revenues will come, from out‑of‑market broadcasters at 25 per cent.  So that is $234,000 and we believe a chunk of that is going to come right off The Bull.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1690              However, we understand two things, and that is that The Bull was not intended to be a radio station for Owen Sound.  It was primarily intended to be a station for mid‑western Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1691              We soon discovered after testing and then putting it on the air that we did have a following in Owen Sound and that there was an appetite up there for people to participate with a radio station.  And, being good businesspeople, we certainly, I don't know if explored is a good word, but we certainly satisfied the advertising demand up in that area and we are very happy with that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1692              But we do understand that our core market is mid‑western Ontario.  And therefore, when we asked for power increases for South Huron we had that intent of being able to best satisfy our home market before we go gallivanting into other markets.  And so we believe that is where our long‑term strength is going to be in our home market.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1693              And, as you can see with the BBM, The Bull started off very strong year one, little loss year two, year three we are down to a 13.5 market share.  And we would like to think and the people on our Bull team would like to think that they can bolster that number or hold onto that number.  I think history is starting to prove that being out of market now does have a cost and that it is a depreciating asset as time goes on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1694              So we want to put a station into that market that is going to stand and grow in market share and not decline.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1695              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Can you just maybe explain for me too the difference between your format decision and the earlier application which went straight after a rock format in terms ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1696              MR. MR WEESE:  Sure, I would be happy to do that.  In fact, I am fortunate to have a couple of people with me here today who could probably best answer that.  I can either start with Mark or Gina.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1697              Mark, are you prepared?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1698              MR. KASSOF:  Well, I hope so.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires


LISTNUM 1 \l 1699              MR. KASSOF:  Basically, you know, what I looked at and shared with the radio station was what is the biggest unserved need in the market?  And the biggest unserved need in the market was the format that we are discussing.  You know, when we get down to mainstream rock it is considerably less.  The format for mainstream rock is 7 per cent, so it is considerably less.  So the biggest need in the market seemed to be a good way to go.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1700              Another thing I would like to share is that, you know, I think conventional wisdom is that the way to take share, to repatriate, is to put something on exactly the same as what they are taking away from.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1701              My experience is that is not always a very good strategy.  And, in fact, sometimes you can repatriate more by giving to people something that is a little bit different, giving them something that they don't have before. So that is where that all came from basically.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1702              And again, we are talking about a station that I projected at 16 share, 12‑64 with 10 points coming from The Bull.  And again, that is based on that model I shared with you earlier.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1703              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Without ‑‑ I am sorry, go ahead.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1704              MS LORENTZ:  I was just going to add, additionally, the format that we are proposing appeals to a slightly older demo, it is an aging demo in Owen Sound currently.  And, as Ray and others have spoken, that demographic of 35‑54 with the high percentage of out‑of‑market tuning, it is very community and family focused and a lot of our programming that will be going into this new station will reflect the need for that audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1705              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  And the last question on this is you identified an unmined revenue resource of about $900,000 out there.  I am not asking you to give away phone numbers or anything, but can you tell me, roughly, what sort of segments those are in?  Are they automotive, are they retail?  Give me some idea where those $900,000 loonies can be found.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1706              MR. WEESE:  Well, it is pretty broad‑based.  I think I have with me somewhere ‑‑ EPI Markets breaks it down by segment in a particular market and so there would be auto and there would be other areas.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1707              If you would just bear with me just one second, I will go through a briefcase and try to find this document.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 1708              MR. WEESE:  And I had better come up with this document.  We can play the sample of the sound again while I am going through this if you want.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires


LISTNUM 1 \l 1709              MR. WEESE:  Oh, here we go.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1710              Indeed, the biggest retail category to date in Owen Sound.  So when we talk about the untapped revenue potential, what would be off a broad base of existing business sectors that would be out there that are measured by Financial Post markets, when I take a look at information from the Radio Marketing Bureau it indicates that by far the largest sector would be automotive sales as well as RV and parts and that represents by far the biggest category.  That is followed by general merchandise, supermarkets, pharmacies, home centres, gas stations, clothing and so on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1711              So when we talk about that $900,000 of unmined radio potential, it would be taken off, in our mind, this cross‑section of all these markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1712              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  And just so I am clear, this is new money, that more competition would increase the spend by advertisers as opposed to shifting their spend from other forms of media or ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1713              MR. WEESE:  Well, that would be the idea.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1714              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Right.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1715              MR. WEESE:  Right now, the market is arguably underserved and if you were to take the calculations of radio share out of the retail shares, it would represent X amount of dollars, $6.2 million to be exact.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1716              Right now we currently estimate that $5.3 million is being taken, the variance being $900,000, and that there is plenty of room in the market for people to attack that directly.  They won't get it all but at least it shows that there is room in the market for somebody to compete for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1717              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1718              THE CHAIRPERSON:  I too have some follow‑up questions and primarily they deal with adding diversity to the market because if we license this service it is not like your Wingham station is going to go away from the Owen Sound market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1719              Mr. Weese, you said that a 13.5 percent share of tuning is down from other years but some of the applicants in these proceedings project an even lower share of tuning, at least in the early years, in their applications.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1720              So, first of all, would you care to comment on what some of those projections of share of tuning are, and, secondly, why you aren't comfortable with just getting 13.5 percent from Owen Sound?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1721              MR. WEESE:  Well, okay.  Yes, very good and a good question.  If their market share ‑‑ the last applicant, I didn't hear what they were projecting after year one but they sounded like they were coming out very strong.  The other applicants are also talking about coming out pretty strong with market share as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1722              We believe we are coming out quite aggressively with a 16‑point share but we recognize that we are taking that off ourselves.  When we open up for business, we do not expect that our Bull is going to hold onto its share of hours tuned, that that number is going to go down.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1723              We listed in Mr. Kassof's research that it is going to go down 10 points just from his research and we suspect it will take a pretty good dent into that 13.5, that is declining anyway as time goes on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1724              THE CHAIRPERSON:  You did say that about 10 percent of your revenues are generated from the Owen Sound market currently?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1725              MR. WEESE:  From all our Wingham radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1726              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  Do you have a sales force in Owen Sound?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1727              MR. WEESE:  We have.  We have two people that do service in Owen Sound, one specifically in the city and one part of the city and part of the surrounding area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1728              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are you moving that person back to Wingham ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1729              MR. WEESE:  We may have to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1730              THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ if you get licensed?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1731              MR. WEESE:  We will have a sales force, obviously, for the Sound.  That person may be a candidate for that team.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1732              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  One of the things about your format ‑‑ again, it goes to diversity in terms of what will be available in the market because your Wingham station will still be available here and so the format question is on this proposal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1733              Ms Lorentz, you said it had a harder edge than what is currently available in the market; correct?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1734              MS LORENTZ:  Harder edge than CFOS, which does have a percentage of oldies that they play within their format that includes news, talk and sports programming.  So the catalogue of music that we would be pulling from, the seventies and eighties, would have more of a rock‑based harder edge from that catalogue that perhaps CFOS also digs into primarily.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1735              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So there might be some duplication?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1736              MS LORENTZ:  There might be some duplication.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1737              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, because when I look at your list, and although I haven't seen it in a while, I see Procol Harum and I don't quite consider Procol Harum to have a harder edge, just as an example.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1738              MS LORENTZ:  I think overall the flow of it by focusing on the seventies and eighties, it will have quite a different sound from CFOS.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1739              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And I see in response to deficiency questions your target audience is males age 45‑54; is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1740              MR. WEESE:  When we drilled down to what the core was ‑‑ and my understanding of that deficiency question is if you had to identify exactly who your core audience would be, it would be 45+ male to 54.  However, our station will serve 35+ to 54 audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1741              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And what is the core audience of your Wingham station?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1742              MR. WEESE:  Of our Bull radio station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1743              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1744              MR. WEESE:  It is 18+.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1745              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And what would be the median age of both, of both the Bull and this proposal?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1746              MR. WEESE:  The median age?  I will let Mark Kassof address what he believes is the median age.  My understanding of it is it would be right around 40 and probably male.  The Bull seems to be growing a bit of a younger audience but it is strong at 35+ male as well, but burgeoning at 18+.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1747              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1748              Do you have anything to add, Mr. Kassof?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1749              MR. KASSOF:  Yes.  The projection that I have is that 73 percent of the audience would be 25‑54 men and women.  Drilling that down a little further, 62 percent would be 35‑54 and then further still 45 percent would be 45‑54.  Male‑female split about 55 percent men.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1750              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Well, thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1751              Legal Counsel?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1752              MS SMITH:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1753              I just have one question for you.  I wanted to know if you would be willing to file a breakdown of your projected market tuning by the end of the day December 17th, which is next Monday.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1754              MR. WEESE:  Absolutely!  We can give that to you now if you like.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1755              MS SMITH:  If you have it, that would be great.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1756              MR. WEESE:  You are welcome.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1757              THE CHAIRPERSON:  You now have your two minutes for your final pitch and to tell us why you would be the best applicant to serve this market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1758              MR. COSTLEY WHITE:  I will do that.  Thank you very much, Madam Chair and commissioners and staff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1759              The Commission's criteria for evaluating applications for new radio stations seeks to ensure that the best possible application is licensed while ensuring that no undue damage is done to incumbent broadcasters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1760              First of all, I would note that the incumbent broadcaster has not contested the capacity of the Owen Sound market to absorb a new station.  So that leaves the quality of the application.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1761              When this call was issued, Blackburn Radio responded by drawing on its heritage, on its experience and on its skilled team, some of whom you have met today, of broadcasters to develop a proposal for a new radio service of exceptionally high quality to serve the Owen Sound community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1762              I would like to refer you to your material.  Stapled to this map of Midwestern Ontario at the back is a comparison chart which I think you have also seen up on your screen here, the purpose of which is to illustrate the quality of our proposal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1763              Blackburn Radio has proposed by far the highest program expenditures of all the candidates for this licence.  You have heard some of the detail this morning.  Simply put, this underscores our commitment to broadcasting excellence wherever we operate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1764              We have also proposed by far the highest level of news content at 18 hours and 18 minutes and to produce this level of news we have proposed the largest news staff of all the applicants, with four full‑time staff and four part‑time correspondents to serve the extended coverage area of our proposed station.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1765              We have proposed the highest level of Canadian content, at 40 percent, both during the overall broadcast week and during the daytime period and we have proposed creative CCD initiatives that will enrich the cultural life of the city of Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1766              We have proposed the highest level of capital expenditure and this is also characteristic of our company.  We wanted to ensure that our signal will support our mandate, that our team is supplied with the best equipment and that we have a storefront presence in the city which will welcome the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1767              With respect to format, you have three choices before you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1768              Two applicants, those who have proposed rock formats, have essentially done no format research but merely looked at the BBMs.  One applicant chose its format based on testing the popularity of their proposed format only.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1769              By contrast, Blackburn Radio commissioned new consumer research which tested the popularity of and preference for nine different formats.  From this research we selected the format that will support the most effective market entry by meeting the greatest unmet need in the market.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1770              Blackburn Radio's approach reflects the way in which we operate in the five markets we currently serve.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1771              If my mother and father taught me one lesson of management, it is to hire great people.  I am proud of this team, some of whom you have met today, and they prove every day that they can fulfil their promises and deliver great radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1772              I want to thank you very much for your attention.  As John said in our opening remarks, if you grant us this licence, you will not be disappointed.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1773              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Costley White, Mr. Weese and to your colleagues for your participation here today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1774              We will now break for lunch and come back at 1:30.  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1200 / Suspension à 1200

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1330 / Reprise à 1330

LISTNUM 1 \l 1775              THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1776              We will now proceed with item 3, which is an application by Larche Communications Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Owen Sound.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1777              The new station would operate on frequency 92.3 MHz (channel 222B) with an effective radiated power of 20,000 watts (non‑directional antenna/antenna height of 212 metres).

LISTNUM 1 \l 1778              Appearing for the Applicant is Mr. Paul Larche.  Please introduce your colleagues and you will have 20 minutes for your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 1779              MR. LARCHE:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1780              Good afternoon, Madam Chair and commissioners and CRTC staff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1781              My name is Paul Larche.  I am the President of Larche Communications or LCI for short.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1782              It is always a privilege to present before you and today is no different for a new FM radio station to serve Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1783              Please let me introduce my panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1784              Joining me today is Mora Austin, who is our Vice‑President and General Manager of our Midland operation CICZ‑FM.  Mora has worked at CICZ for over 20 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1785              Next to Mora is our company's Music and Program Director along with morning show co‑host of CICZ, Ted Roop.  Ted recently won the Canadian Country Music Association's On‑Air Personality of the Year Award and Music Director of the Year Award for 2007.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1786              Seated next to Ted is our Promotions Director for CIKZ‑FM Kitchener, Beth Warren.  Prior to joining us four years ago, Beth worked for more than 10 years in the Canadian independent country music industry.  She won Manager of the Year Award in both 1999 and 2000 at the Ontario Country Music Association Awards and Record Company Person of the Year at the CCMA Awards in 1999.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1787              Madam Chair, commissioners, I can't tell you how excited I am to be here today.  This application for Owen Sound, as well as our application for Peterborough which we will present hopefully in the next couple of days, makes great strategic sense for our company.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1788              Owen Sound is right across Georgian Bay from our Midland operation.  We are not only connected geographically, we are both part of cottage country and cottage country radio is something we have had the good fortune to be very successful at for several years.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1789              I have had the pleasure of working and living all over Ontario.  I grew up in the north and also worked for several years in Toronto but I have always considered cottage country to be the most beautiful part of our province:  four great seasons, a multitude of recreation, fantastic waterways, absolutely great people and a terrific place to raise a family.  That is why it has been my home for 12 years and I can't imagine living anywhere else.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1790              Expanding our radio holdings in cottage country makes perfect sense on so many levels for us.  Because it is our home we intimately know the region.  We know how business is conducted in the area.  We understand and appreciate the economic drivers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1791              We are part of the fabric and culture of cottage country and at the risk of sounding a bit trite, it is a bit of a radio marriage made in heaven, but we fully appreciate that this is a competitive hearing and that the application must stand on its own and that is exactly what we have done.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1792              We believe this application strikes the perfect balance of reflecting and satisfying market needs, sound business judgment and fulfilling the mandate of the Broadcast Act.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1793              So let's start with the business plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1794              Ted.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1795              MR. ROOP:  Thank you very much, Paul, and good afternoon, commissioners.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1796              We are proposing a rock‑based music format for Owen Sound and this is clearly the format they want.  It is made evident by the market's BBM ratings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1797              The second most‑listened to station with listeners 12+ and the number one station with listeners 25‑54 in Owen Sound is a rock station.  The problem is it is not an Owen Sound station.  CIBU‑FM Wingham is situated over an hour's drive south of Owen Sound in a different county but the rock format offered by CIBU‑FM is without a doubt filling a huge void in Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1798              With only AC, country and oldies on local radio, no station is dedicated to the rock genre.  No station is providing radio programming that reflects the interests and lifestyle of rock music listeners in Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1799              Offering a local rock station will bring these listeners back to Owen Sound radio.  That is why we are proposing Rock 92.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1800              Rock 92 will be a broad‑based rock station that will essentially include the best the format has to offer.  Rock 92 will superserve the rock music fan in Owen Sound with a mix of classic rock and the best new rock.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1801              Classic rock artists such as the Guess Who, Rush, Led Zeppelin, BTO, Arrowsmith, the Eagles, AC/DC, the Rolling Stones, Tom Cochrane and Neil Young will make up approximately two‑thirds of the overall playlist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1802              Also airing on Rock 92 will be current rock music and music from the past five years.  Some of these core artists will include Nickelback, Sloan, Avril Lavigne, Sum 41, the Tragically Hip, Default, The Trews and Three Doors Down.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1803              Of course, a high‑quality station must provide a wide variety of music‑related features to engage the rock listener.  Rock 92 will feature several locally produced rock programming features targeted to Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1804              Rock 92's programming will be 100 percent locally produced and originating.  We believe the only way to truly reflect the community you serve is to ensure all programming originates from the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1805              We anticipate the impact on incumbent stations will be minimal.  We will be repatriating out‑of‑market listeners and bringing back radio dollars that have left the market.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1806              I am very proud of the track record CICZ‑FM in Midland has established.  At the recent Canadian Country Music Association Awards held in Regina, CICZ‑FM was chosen as Country Station of the Year and this is the fifth time in the past six years we have been honoured with that award.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1807              We want to duplicate this success in Owen Sound.  Of course, music is only one component of a successful station.  To talk about the rest, over to Mora.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1808              MS AUSTIN:  Thanks, Ted.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1809              Our non‑music programming, in a nutshell, will be local, local and more local.  That is what has made us successful in Central Ontario, that is what made us successful in Kitchener and that is what will make us successful in Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1810              In today's age of iPod, satellite radio and other emerging technologies, terrestrial radio's true and only edge is being local, informing, reflecting and discussing local and regional content.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1811              We have committed to over 12 and a half hours of meaningful local spoken‑word programming.  For example, we will program three times per day special community vignettes called "Community Clips."  They will feature a wide range of local topics and interviews aimed to reflect the needs of Owen Sound and the cultural diversity of the region.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1812              Similar to Midland, Owen Sound is also lucky enough to have Georgian Bay right on is doorstep.  With that in mind, we will offer comprehensive daily recreation and tourism reports throughout the year focused on boating, fishing, camping, skiing, snowmobiling and more.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1813              You will find our community cruiser, our station boat or our station snowmobiles at all major community events, offering both onsite and on‑air exposure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1814              In addition, the station will invite various community groups and charitable organizations to post their information, special events and link on our website.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1815              Also, we are very excited to offer our listeners an opportunity to voice their opinions and views regarding local issues of importance through our feature entitled "The Owen Sounding Board."  Each day our on‑air staff will pose a relevant question to the Owen Sound community.  Listeners will be invited to call in and record their feedback.  The following day we will air our listeners' comments and concerns.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1816              Rock 92 will also offer a new and diverse news voice to the Owen Sound market.  Local and regional news will be first and foremost and will represent 80 percent of our total news package.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1817              With over three hours and 20 minutes devoted to news and an additional three hours of local sports, local weather and local traffic reports, we are convinced we will be supplying the people of Owen Sound with the information that matters most to them each and every day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1818              As an added benefit we will cross‑promote news, public events and tourist attractions with our Midland operation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1819              Madam Chair and commissioners, I have worked at CICZ‑FM, which originally was CKMP‑AM, for 21 years.  Just prior to Paul's purchase of CICZ, I can honestly tell you I was not proud of the radio station.  I loved the radio business but at that point seriously considered getting out of it.  We had a skeleton staff of only six and definitely we were not serving our community in the way in which they expected or deserved.  We were losing respect and revenues, let alone morale.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1820              It is hard to believe that we just celebrated our 10th anniversary under Larche Communications.  I guess time really does fly when you are having fun and what a great ride it has been.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1821              Under Paul's leadership ‑‑ although, frankly, I have done most of the work ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires


LISTNUM 1 \l 1822              MS AUSTIN:  ‑‑ Midland has been a great broadcast success story in ratings, revenues, product and, above all, the critical role we play in reflecting and informing the communities we serve.  We are very proud to say we are doing the same in Kitchener.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1823              Our mission statement is exceedingly simple:  MOCHA, an acronym for Make Our Customer Happy Always.  Our customers are the communities we serve, including listeners, advertisers and employees.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1824              The core values behind MOCHA are simple as well:  Make sure we have the right strategy, the right people, effective systems and quality in everything we do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1825              Our vision is to be the most successful small independent broadcaster in Canada.  We want to be envied as a leader in ratings, innovation and place to work.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1826              It really comes down to this:  Ask our customers what they want and then give it to them.  What a concept!


LISTNUM 1 \l 1827              Despite the size of our company, Paul has set high standards that bring out the best in all of us.  His staff and peers respect and admire him.  He believes in rewarding his people both promotionally and financially and our profit‑sharing program exhibits his generous character.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1828              We want our company to grow.  Paul wants to give his employees an opportunity to grow as well.  That is why we are here today.  We have shown this industry and ourselves that despite being a small independent we can compete with the very best in the country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1829              I would like to now pass it over to Beth to discuss our impressive CCD initiatives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1830              MS WARREN:  Thanks, Mora.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1831              I have worked in the music industry in various capacities for more than 20 years and I have seen firsthand that the dollars committed by radio do make a huge difference to Canadian artists.  I have worked with several artists that have gone on to have successful careers and they couldn't have done it without the help and financial support of radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1832              LCI is dedicated to providing assistance toward the growth and development of the Canadian independent recording industry and are therefore committing a total of $350,000 over the first licence term.  We believe these initiatives will make a real difference, particularly with emerging artists.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1833              The Foundation to Assist Canadian Talent on Record, or FACTOR, has been directly responsible for many Canadian success stories and we are proud to be contributing broadcasters.  $20,000 per year will go to FACTOR.  It goes without saying the amazing job they do at assisting Canadian talent nationally and internationally.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1834              A lifelong love of music starts with our children.  To encourage and support music programs in the school system, another $10,000 per year will go towards the purchase of new musical instruments and equipment for Owen Sound elementary and secondary schools.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1835              We have also committed $10,000 per year toward the Owen Sound Kiwanis Festival of Music.  Many Canadian artists perform for the very first time on the Kiwanis stage, making it an important part in the careers of some of Canada's biggest stars.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1836              Rock 92 will also host the RockQuest Talent Search, at a cost of $10,000 per year.  RockQuest will be modelled on the successful StarQuests we conduct in Midland and Kitchener.  The winner will receive studio time, reproduction and, of course, airtime on our station.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1837              Our application also outlines a commitment of $50,000 per year in airtime devoted to promotion of music‑related activities in Owen Sound and area as it relates to emerging artists.  This would include the promotion of concerts and performances by local artists, artistic programs in the community and the release of CDs for local artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1838              We will also produce emerging artist programming, including the new Artist of the Month, with 28 weekly vignettes highlighting the new artists, similar to our features that we currently air on our existing stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1839              These are truly outstanding CCD initiatives that we believe exceed and surpass the Commission's CCD plan as outlined in the recent Radio Review.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1840              In my various positions in the music business I have worked on the artist side with many radio stations from across the country.  I know it sounds like I am bucking for a raise but I can honestly tell you I have never seen a company that puts so much time, effort and money into promoting and exposing Canadian talent.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1841              Just two weeks ago, our stations in Midland and Kitchener treated 4,000 of our listeners to two free concerts by Canadian country superstars The Wilkinsons and Emerson Drive, along with new Canadian emerging artist Jesse Farrell.  The cost was $25,000 and this was not a CCD initiative.  It was an investment we made in bringing our listeners and our artists together to celebrate great Canadian music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1842              We consider this one of our mandates and we hope to have the chance to do this in Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1843              Paul.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1844              MR. LARCHE:  Thank you, Beth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1845              So again, Madam Chair and commissioners, we are before you positioning ourselves for the long term.  This application, as I mentioned at the outset, is very strategic for our company.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1846              As you know, we are waiting approval on the divestiture of CIKZ‑FM Kitchener and the purchase of CICX‑FM Orillia.  This will allow our company to rid ourselves ‑‑ and I say this in the absolute nicest possible way ‑‑ of minority partnerships.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1847              We are back on our own with total control of our destiny.  It will allow us to consolidate our efforts in Central Ontario and cottage country.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1848              My vision of this destiny is to create a group of radio properties in small to medium size markets within a few hours drive of Midland.  That is why we applied and received approval for Sudbury, that is why we are applying for Peterborough and that is why we are here today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1849              As we have done with CICZ‑FM, I want these stations to be exemplary and envied inside and outside the business and the communities we serve.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1850              Madam Chair and commissioners, we all consider this a privilege.  We are custodians of broadcast licences that belong to the Canadian people.  The Broadcast Act wisely lets us hold onto it if we give back and reflect our country and communities.  What a deal!

LISTNUM 1 \l 1851              We work hard to hold up our end of that deal.  Our track record speaks for itself.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1852              Just last week we raised $25,000 for The Salvation Army in Midland through our Christmas Penny Drive.  People in that market collect pennies all year long for this event.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1853              This fall our morning co‑host Carey Moran shaved her head and raised $25,000 for the Kelly Shires Foundation, a foundation that helps women battling breast cancer.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1854              I have a terrific staff and I can assure you they know our mandate and what we have to do to hold up our end of the deal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1855              In conclusion, I hope you will agree that this is a fair, balanced and realistic application based on what we have proven that we do and not just on what you want to hear.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1856              Approval of this application will fill the largest underserved format in the market rock.  BBM so obviously confirms this as the number one station with listeners 25‑54 is an out‑of‑market rock station over an hour's drive away from Owen Sound.  Let's bring those listeners back.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1857              Because we are repatriating out‑of‑market tuning, approval of this application will have minimal impact on the incumbent radio broadcaster in Owen Sound, Bayshore Broadcasting.  We believe this is evident by the fact that they intervened against all applications for this hearing except ours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1858              Approval of this application will result in Canadian talent initiatives totalling an aggressive $350,000.  We will be offering high‑quality programming and standards by a young group of broadcasters who are considered by their peers as the best in Canada.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1859              Approval of this application will introduce a new editorial voice in Owen Sound, one that will offer extensive news and community programming as well as a number of additional community initiatives that will expand and reflect the makeup and culture of this great community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1860              This new voice will allow us to cross‑promote events and activities in cottage country and Central Ontario with our Midland and, hopefully soon, Orillia station.  It will also allow us to further consolidate our efforts in this part of the province where we have decided to live and call home.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1861              Finally, approval of this application will allow a small independent radio broadcaster to get stronger, stronger to hold its own against much larger public companies, stronger to weather economic downturns and stronger to contribute to and enhance the goals and aspirations of the Broadcast Act.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1862              Thank you.  We would be more than happy to take your questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1863              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Larche and your colleagues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1864              I guess my first question is:  Would you agree that beside every great man sits a great woman, based on what Ms Austin said earlier?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires


LISTNUM 1 \l 1865              MR. LARCHE:  Actually, we have several ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1866              THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1867              MR. LARCHE:  ‑‑ great women that work with us but Mora has been such a huge contributor to our company, and believe it or not, she has worked at CICZ for 20 years.  She did start when she was 12 but she does a great job up there and our company wouldn't work without her.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1868              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1869              I am going to start the questioning in a much similar fashion as I did with the first applicant this morning, The Pearl, and speak about your choice of format, because, as I said earlier, it does form the basis for your business plan and the reason why you are here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1870              You are proposing a blend of current and classic rock, targeting a predominantly male audience, age 35 to 54.  Correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1871              MR. LARCHE:  That's correct.  Thirty‑five to 49 is the target.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1872              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thirty‑five to 49.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1873              And the median age?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1874              MR. LARCHE:  Forty to 42‑year‑old male.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1875              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Other than the BBM, which I know is a very strong indicator, but other than the BBM, what other factors did you take into consideration in coming up with this format and, therefore, your target audience?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1876              MR. LARCHE:  First of all, I would like to comment on research in general for new applications, because I think it is quite relevant in this situation.  We never shy away from doing qualitative research.  We have done it in most of our applications.  We have done it for Peterborough, which we will present to you in the next couple of days.  And we have worked with some great researchers, including Mark Kassof, who you saw this morning.  Mark is actually doing some work for us right now in another market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1877              When you are putting a business plan together and you are trying to look at what the obvious hole is in terms of local and in a market, sometimes it becomes so obvious that it slaps you in the face, and, honestly, this is one of those times.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1878              When you have the number one radio station with listeners 25 to 54, and number two 12‑plus, with a radio station that is, arguably, an out‑of‑market radio station ‑‑ they are an hour away ‑‑ it is a testament to them that they put out a great product, but it is also so obvious that that is the biggest hole that is not being served in that market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1879              Then what you do is, you look around at similar markets in Ontario.  You don't have to go very far.  You can look at Barrie, you can look at Sudbury, you can look at Peterborough, and you can look at Kitchener, where they have a country station and an AC station, and the rock format is the format that makes so much sense.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1880              It is true that BBM is relevant third party research, but we knew that the research was going to show us that what people aren't getting from a local radio station is rock, and we stand firmly behind that.  Even looking at some of the other research that is being done, I think that still holds true.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1881              THE CHAIRPERSON:  We heard from Blackburn that, according to the latest BBM, they get about a 13.5 share out of this market.  How much of that do you expect to repatriate?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1882              MR. LARCHE:  We project a 7 share in our first year, and we see that moving up to a 12 share by Year 3.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1883              Again, this is based on our experience.  When we went into Kitchener, there was an out‑of‑market country station that was doing quite well in that market, and we found out that you don't come in and all of a sudden, just because you are local, take that audience away immediately.  It does take some time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1884              We have tried to do it based on our experience and, being conservative, we thought that it would take a little bit of time for us to get that audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1885              We also know that we will never get all of it.  The Bull, or whatever they decide to do with it, will continue to have an audience in the Owen Sound area, because, as I mentioned, it's a good product.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1886              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you don't necessarily agree with The Bull when they say that they may drop as much as 10 points?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1887              MR. LARCHE:  I look at it, also, from the target audience point of view, and the target audience is, arguably, 25 to 54.  Everyone is going to narrow it down a little bit, but that is the money‑making demo, and The Bull is doing very well in that demographic.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1888              It was mentioned this morning that the ratings are starting to slip with The Bull, but that, in fact, doesn't hold true to last week's BBMs.  They are the number one station, 25 to 54, with a 21.7 share, and that is the highest share they have ever had in that market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1889              So, in fact, the ratings are going up, not down.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1890              THE CHAIRPERSON:  As we said earlier, they are not going to go away.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1891              MR. LARCHE:  Of course not.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1892              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Whoever we license in this market ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1893              MR. LARCHE:  Like I said, they are good broadcasters.  They are very smart, and they will ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1894              Obviously, they don't make their bread and butter in Owen Sound, they make it in their home market.  So this would have some impact on them, but I don't see them going away.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1895              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you are going to have to co‑exist with them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1896              MR. LARCHE:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1897              THE CHAIRPERSON:  In terms of the music, how much duplication is there going to be between what you are proposing and what is currently being played on The Bull ‑‑ and it goes to diversity of music available in the market.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1898              MR. LARCHE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1899              A lot, but, again, we have looked at diversity in terms of local radio versus out‑of‑market radio.  We are used to that in markets like Midland, Barrie, Kitchener, where we operate, where we are 50, 60 percent of the tuning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1900              All formats are available in these markets, but they are not available on the local dial.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1901              Our format will be very similar to The Bull's.  Like I said, they are a very well programmed rock station, with about two‑third classic rock versus a new and current mix.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1902              We would be very similar to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1903              I can't stand up here and say that we are going to be different and create diversity from that radio station, because we are not.  Like I said, they are doing a good job.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1904              What we would be doing is something very similar to that, but we would be doing it with Owen Sound as our basis.  We would be a local Owen Sound radio station, talking to and trying to reflect the needs and wants of people in Owen Sound, not in Wingham.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1905              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you will do this through your spoken word programming.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1906              That will be the differentiating factor?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1907              MR. LARCHE:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1908              THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will talk about your spoken word programming a little bit later, but in terms of the impact on the existing stations, the Bayshore stations in Owen Sound, your supplementary brief specifies that 35 percent of your advertising revenues will come from existing stations.  Correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1909              MR. LARCHE:  Yes.  From the incumbent stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1910              THE CHAIRPERSON:  From the incumbent stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1911              But given that the format currently doesn't exist, some may say:  That's really high.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1912              Why do you expect that you will have that level of impact on existing stations, where the format doesn't exist?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1913              Or, are you saying that maybe what does exist might come a little bit close to your format?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1914              MR. LARCHE:  Again, we can tell you what we have seen happen in markets, and not just necessarily what you want to hear.  The fact is that we will have an impact on Bayshore.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1915              We do say that, I think, it is 200,000 or 250,000 in the first year, and going up from that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1916              What will happen is, you might have an advertiser who is just spending money on the country station and the AC station.  They might continue to do that, but what is going to happen is, they are going to split it up now three ways, and that will have a bit of an effect on the incumbent station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1917              If you look at the size of the market, the value of the market, and the new radio growth that is coming into the market ‑‑ and we project that 15 percent of our revenue is going to come from new growth ‑‑ it is very easy for them to absorb it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1918              THE CHAIRPERSON:  You also say that 50 percent from new advertisers and other media ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1919              MR. LARCHE:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1920              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So is it your contention that there are advertisers in the Owen Sound market who want to specifically target your target audience?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1921              MR. LARCHE:  Yes, and I also think it ties back to the fact that in Owen Sound right now there is only one broadcaster.  Again, they do a good job, but when you have more people out there selling radio, selling the value of radio as a medium, not even necessarily your radio station, but talking about why radio works in advertising, that tends to bring people over from newspaper and other media that haven't been convinced yet, because you are basically doubling the effort from the one current broadcaster to, now, two in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1922              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So the other media would be things like print, that you would expect ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1923              MR. LARCHE:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1924              THE CHAIRPERSON:  We have talked about it to some degree, but, if licensed, the fact is that you will be competing with a well‑heeled incumbent in Bayshore, and, in a very similar degree, with Blackburn's Wingham station.  It is competition.  It is out‑of‑market, but it is still competition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1925              As an independent broadcaster in the market, if you are licensed, what would be the challenges ‑‑ or maybe you see them as opportunities ‑‑ to be successful in this type of market?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1926              MR. LARCHE:  I see much more opportunity than challenge, although, again, we are not saying that it would be easy.  Again, we have tried to make it so clear in this that we are trying to tell you what we will do, and we are basing it on realistic numbers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1927              We don't necessarily have the highest amount when it comes to programming expenses, but what we do say we are going to do we will deliver on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1928              If you are looking at, basically, how we would react to competing against two players in a market, where they are already entrenched, we are very comfortable already doing that.  We do it where we are based in Midland.  We certainly have done that in the last four years in Kitchener.  We know that if we do MOCHA, which we have talked about a few times, which is "Ask our customers what they want and give it to them," ultimately we will succeed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1929              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Speaking of your Midland and Kitchener stations, are there any synergies, if you are licensed in Owen Sound, with those two stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1930              MR. LARCHE:  There definitely will be some synergies, especially at the back end of radio administration, our accounting, HR, engineering ‑‑ not too much on the programming side, for two reasons.  One is, this would be a format that we don't have right now.  We have country‑based formats.  This would be rock, so we would be bringing in new people that are experts in that field.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1931              Wherever there could be a synergy that makes business sense, we would definitely look at it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1932              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So not necessarily in programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1933              MR. LARCHE:  Actually, really not in programming at all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1934              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So the vignettes that, Ms Austin, you spoke about in the oral presentation, these would be totally independent of the Midland and/or Kitchener stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1935              MS AUSTIN:  Yes.  They would be locally produced and researched, and the interviews would be done through our newsroom in Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1936              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And they are not vignettes of artists?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1937              MS AUSTIN:  There are two.  There are artist vignettes, which would feature emerging rock artists, if you will, and the second vignettes, which we call community clips, which would be something that would go under the news umbrella.  We would interview the local Boy Scouts on what they are doing this week, if they have a special event, or something they are doing ‑‑ a fundraiser.  We would have them on the air and do a little interview and feature that on our programming under the news umbrella.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1938              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So if you were to create artist vignettes for this station that also may attract a country audience, you wouldn't use those vignettes?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1939              Bon Jovi ‑‑ I don't know, I am making this up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1940              John Cougar Mellencamp, Mr. Larche.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1941              MS AUSTIN:  Although both of those, sort of, have crossed over between the formats, these vignettes would be specifically for emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1942              If it made sense we would do it, but at this point I can't think of any emerging rock artist that would cross over to the country format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1943              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And vice versa.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1944              MS AUSTIN:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1945              THE CHAIRPERSON:  The vignettes you are doing on the country stations would not appear on this station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1946              MS AUSTIN:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1947              THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will go further into spoken word, because you are offering a substantial amount ‑‑ 12 hours and 31 minutes, to be exact.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1948              In your application you say that 6 hours and 42 minutes is information programming, and there will be 3 hours and 23 minutes of hard news.  Correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1949              MR. LARCHE:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1950              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Does that 3 hours and 23 minutes include surveillance?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1951              MR. LARCHE:  No, that is strictly news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1952              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Strictly news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1953              MR. LARCHE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1954              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Of which about 70 percent is local?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1955              MR. LARCHE:  Yes.  I think in the deficiency report we said that 60 percent would be local, 20 percent regional, and 20 percent national.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1956              Of course, that is an average.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1957              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And there, too, there won't be any synergies with either your Midland or Kitchener stations?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1958              MR. LARCHE:  No, except if there is an obvious news story that we want to cross‑promote between one or the other that just makes sense.  You know, there was a big fire in Barrie the other day, which is right in our backyard, so that would be something that ‑‑ we would have a reporter down there and we would, most likely, do a cut‑in for the Owen Sound station.  That would just make sense.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1959              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Again, according to your supplementary brief, you say that you would hire two full‑time news people.  Would these two people be responsible only for the 3 hours and 23 minutes?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1960              In other words, they won't be responsible for any of the other spoken word content?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1961              MR. LARCHE:  They would be primarily responsible for all of the news and some of the surveillance, some of the sports, and, obviously, some of the weather forecasts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1962              Again, this is based on our experience.  That is what we currently have in Midland.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1963              Again, when you are a small operator, you learn how to work lean and smart, and you also know that to do really well in this business you need really good people.  I have been very fortunate to be able to find and attract and hold onto some really good people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1964              This format will not be a news‑intensive format, it will be a music‑intensive format, but we want to make sure that we are providing everything that the local person needs in terms of news in Owen Sound.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1965              News is just one component of reflecting the community properly, especially a community like Owen Sound, where tourism is so big.  You have to be very involved with recreation, and that we don't include in our news department.  We hire people who just work our recreation teams.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1966              We have two people who are on a boat in Georgian Bay throughout the summer, calling in reports, talking about marine conditions, talking about weather alerts, talking about events that are going on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1967              There is an argument that that is more promotion, but there is also an argument that that is news and surveillance, as well, particularly when it comes to things such as weather.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1968              And it goes on with snowmobiling and fishing, and just living the culture of that market and reflecting it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1969              A little over 3 hours of solid news is aggressive, but we feel that is what you need to give everybody what they need, and they don't have to go to another source to get it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1970              But the additional 8 hours is where we really will separate ourselves from the pack.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1971              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And it is what will separate you from The Bull?


LISTNUM 1 \l 1972              MR. LARCHE:  That, primarily, is what will separate us from The Bull.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1973              As I mentioned earlier, our music will be similar, but the spoken word content will all be reflecting Owen Sound and what is going on in that area.  It will not be talking about Wingham, it will be talking about Owen Sound, and it will be reflecting what people in Owen Sound want to know and hear.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1974              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1975              I am going to move on to CCD.  You have committed to an over‑above CCD contribution of $49,000 annually, for a total of $343,000 over the licence term.  Will you accept this as a condition of licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1976              MR. LARCHE:  Gladly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1977              THE CHAIRPERSON:  There was a little twist on answering that question, but thank you.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 1978              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Please confirm your understanding that, if licensed, your station will have to contribute a basic annual CCD contribution, imposed by regulation, based on the station's total annual revenues, and in the amounts as set out in paragraph 116 of the new Radio Policy, Public Notice CRTC‑2006‑158.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1979              MR. LARCHE:  Confirmed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1980              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1981              As you know, the final line of questioning has to do with the competition in terms of the applications before us.  The Pearl is proposing a similar format, or maybe not, depending on your perspective, and I would like you to comment on whether or not you think there are similarities between your proposal and that of The Pearl.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1982              MR. LARCHE:  There definitely are similarities.  They seem, again, like another good group of broadcasters.  I know that Christopher Grossman really knows broadcasting and has put on some very successful radio stations in a lot of the markets he has.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1983              There is no doubt that they wouldn't put on a good radio station.  What would make ours different and, arguably, maybe a little better?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1984              I think we have to look at what separates our applications, and I think that, certainly, our CCD contribution is a big factor.  We have significantly more money up there.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1985              We also, self‑servingly, think that we do a pretty good job in the country genre, and we are itching in the worst way to do it on the rock side.  Rock music is near and dear, certainly, to my heart.  I grew up playing in a rock band, and Purple Haze and ‑‑ you don't want to hear it, but ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1986              And I put Q92 on the air in Sudbury back in 1990, and it is still the number one radio station up in Sudbury.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1987              We would take this and we would put out an absolutely great rock music product.  There is no doubt in my mind that the other applicants would put out good products, as well, but all I can tell you is, based on our experience, and based on our track record, we tend to really pay so much attention to the product.  That is the core.  That is our main driver, making sure that the product is right and is doing what the customer wants.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1988              THE CHAIRPERSON:  One of the things you said in your supplementary brief ‑‑ and I am going to read it, so I make sure I get it right ‑‑


"From a monetary and execution perspective, it is a substantial and aggressive undertaking for a company of our size.  The combination of three operations will greatly enhance the prospects of financial stability and survival for LCI."

LISTNUM 1 \l 1989              "Financial stability" and "survival" are strong words.  You did touch upon it in your oral presentation, but I would like to give you the opportunity to elaborate on these statements, and what awarding a licence to you for Owen Sound would mean for your company.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1990              MR. LARCHE:  As I mentioned in the oral presentation, the vision I have for our company is to be a central Ontario‑based radio company that is 100 percent controlled by myself and the group of people that I work with.  I think that if I were to look at what has happened over the past few years, where we expanded into other markets where we didn't totally have control of our destiny, it kind of came back to bite us a bit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1991              So we want to get back into control, into an area that I want to stay and live in and call home.


LISTNUM 1 \l 1992              But I also know that this business changes.  There are several large broadcasters that we compete with in all the markets we are in, and they are very smart and they have deep pockets.  We, basically, have to make sure that we have two or three or four radio properties, preferably in some different formats. To weather the storms of format changes and direct competition, we need those economies of scale.  It makes perfect strategic sense for us to do it in an area in which we live, which we know, and that is why we are here today.  That is why we will be here for Peterborough, so that we can concentrate on this part of Ontario, call it home, and be experts at it, and reflect those communities, and talk about everything that is going on within those communities that goes back and forth, because the just north of Toronto area really is different from other parts of the province, and you have to live there to really understand how it works.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1993              THE CHAIRPERSON:  If I have taken anything away from your final two minutes, I apologize, but thank you for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1994              How many licences should we award in Owen Sound?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1995              MR. LARCHE:  One.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1996              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Thank you very much, Mr. Larche, and your colleagues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1997              Do my colleagues have any further questions?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1998              Commissioner del Val.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1999              COMMISSIONER DEL VAL:  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11000             I just want to understand a bit better, from your perspective, the difference between your proposed format and the proposed format of Blackburn.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11001             MR. LARCHE:  Maybe I could let Ted talk to this a little bit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11002             We are proposing a mainstream rock format, whereas Blackburn is proposing a classic hits format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11003             I can appreciate how some of this can sometimes sound confusing, because there is a lot of overlap, but a classic hits format would be probably defined as less edgier.  Most of its music would be what we would call classic, from the seventies and the eighties, and the sixties, not too much new music, and it would have a bit wider repertoire in rock, to include some of what you might call softer rock.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11004             I think they mentioned some of the artists that they were referring to, some of the early Elton John and Carley Simon ‑‑ artists that wouldn't typically be on a rock station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11005             A mainstream rock station will have a little bit more of an edge to it.  It will be more male skewed.  It will be, generally, a little bit heavier.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11006             Ted, is there anything you want to add to that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11007             MR. ROOP:  I think that pretty much sums it up, with the addition that we would be playing some new stuff, as well.  A third of our playlist would be comprised of new music, too ‑‑ the last five years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11008             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11009             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Menzies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11010             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11011             I have a question in reference to bringing back radio dollars to Owen Sound.  I understand the desire to repatriate the audience, but I am a little confused as to how that might work.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11012             I would assume that the advertising that goes out brings people in.  If it didn't, it wouldn't happen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11013             How do you see that money returning to, in essence, and enhancing the community, and, at the same time, not actually decreasing the amount of commercial activity coming into the community from outside?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11014             MR. LARCHE:  Well, if I understand your question correctly, and please correct me if I'm wrong, are you referring to when we say that we are going to bring listeners back to the local market and dollars back to the local market?  The way we are explaining this is the money that is being taken out of that market by The Bull, for example, and the other stations out of Wingham, that is not ‑‑ that is money that is Owen Sound advertising radio money that could go to a local Owen Sound radio station, either the current incumbents or a new one if you were to licence it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11015             If those ‑‑ when we come in we would obviously be taking some ratings as we have outlaid in our application, and in time we would bring those dollars that are being spent on an out‑of‑market radio station back into Owen Sound radio, so that the revenue pool within Owen Sound radio is strong enough to make sure that all the stations can fulfill their mandate and be successful.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11016             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  And you are confident you would still be able to provide the reach, though, to attract dollars for those advertisers coming into Owen Sound that currently are, because I am going to assume they are otherwise ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11017             MR. LARCHE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11018             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  ‑‑ you wouldn't advertise out.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11019             Yes, okay.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11020             MR. LARCHE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11021             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11022             Ms Warren indicated the $340,000 or $350,000 or so could make a real difference in terms of the developing of Canadian artists or emerging Canadian artists.  I'm just curious if you could give me ‑‑ if there is a couple of ‑‑ one or a couple of success stories that you could share with us to show where it has made a real difference so far.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11023             MS WARREN:  Oh, as far as which artists have benefited from FACTOR for example?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11024             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Yes, who did you make into a star?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11025             MS WARREN:  Who did I make into a star personally?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11026             Well, I was married to a musician for over 15 years.  Does that count?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11027             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Did he become a star?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11028             MS WARREN:  Well, we are divorced now.  So you know no comment.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires


LISTNUM 1 \l 11029             MS WARREN:  Actually, my former husband is a well known country music artist, Jamie Warren.  I have also worked with Jason Blain who recently had a number one hit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11030             I have worked with a couple of artists outside of the country format as well, a couple of roots acts and I have done a lot of different things in the music business from being a roadie to tour managing to managing things, promotions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11031             As far as FACTOR is concerned, FACTOR is really a huge ‑‑ makes a huge difference as far as Canadian artists are concerned, everyone from Great Big Sea, Alanis Morissette.  At some point most of these artists had to apply for FACTOR because to make a record is a hugely expensive proposition.  And so the money that Canadian broadcasters contribute towards FACTOR, it's the only way we are going to sustain the Canadian music business, is to continue to support Canadian acts.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11032             MR. LARCHE:  Just add to that in terms of specific examples there are several, but Jason McCoy is one who lives just outside of Midland, is right now probably, arguably, the top male country vocalist in Canada.  He is now working out of Nashville but he has won the CC male vocalist of the year award, I think a couple of times, right, Ted?  He is an artist that started out in our area that we worked with, that we helped promote, won our talent contest, went onto a different level, so on and so forth.  So there is one clear example.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11033             And there is so many others that are ‑‑ just haven't maybe made it to that star level yet but they are doing so well.  Deric Ruttan who is a songwriter in Bracebridge, is doing extremely well.  He won another one of our talent contests and he is making a great living and I think ‑‑ was it last year the number one song in the U.S.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11034             So I mean, we have a lot of these types of success stories.  But also we deal so much with artists day to day and as Beth mentioned, you know, we showcase artists.  We put our money where our mouth is.  We bring our listeners together so they don't have to pay to see some of this stuff because self‑servingly the more they enjoy these artists the more they are going to listen to our radio station.  But we always take the time to make sure that we are introducing somebody new.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11035             And we were introducing Jessie Farrell a few weeks ago who is an up and coming Canadian artist.  And she had an opportunity to have great exposure in front of, you know, 4,000 people over two nights and radio exposure.  Those are the types of things that make a difference.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11036             MS WARREN:  We even do, not necessarily things that involve money, just bringing artists into the station to have them on the air during the course of the day and bringing in listeners to meet them and do a live performance in the studio.  It's beneficial for the act and it's great for our listeners.  It creates a buzz about that artist and we bring in a lot of brand new acts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11037             We recently at both of our stations had a brand new act.  His name is Johnny Pronto and he came into each station last week and performed for a bunch of listeners and on the air and created quite a buzz about himself, and he is just a relatively ‑‑ a relative newcomer.  He was nominated for the best new artist of the year last year at the CCMAs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11038             MR. LARCHE:  And not to name drop but I'm from Timmins and grew up with Shania Twain.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires


LISTNUM 1 \l 11039             MR. LARCHE:  And although I didn't own a radio station up there at the time I was just hoping that I would work in radio.  The radio stations up there at that time had a lot to do with helping her get her get her career started.  So it's certainly not just us but that's a pretty clear example when you grow up in northern Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11040             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11041             I had ‑‑ maybe you can help me on this.  This is a question that could really go to everybody but I'm trying to get my head around this 25 to 54 demographic that gets mentioned.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11042             If I am an advertiser I think I would want something a bit more specific than that.  I would want to know how many households of $75,000 income and higher, that sort of thing.  25 to 54 seems ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11043             MR. LARCHE:  A family reunion, isn't it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11044             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Well, one guy is buying beer; the other guy is buying Viagra, right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11045             MR. LARCHE:  Exactly.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11046             MR. LARCHE:  It's a family reunion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11047             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  It's a huge ‑‑

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11048             MR. LARCHE:  So when we say ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11049             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  More specifically is your target in terms of that?  I am a car dealer.  Sell me on what your market is going to be.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11050             MR. LARCHE:  Yes, and you know you are so correct in that 25‑54 is way too broad.  It's just unfortunately an advertising industry term that kind of encapsulates so much of ‑‑ national advertisers in particular tend to want to buy 25‑54.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11051             But to answer your question specifically, the great thing about BBM research is that it does offer so much qualitative information in terms of, you know, who your audience is, what their income is, what their household status is, their education level.  But it also gets into stuff like do they enjoy fishing, have they bought a fridge or a stove in the last couple of years, have they went out and went to a family restaurant versus a high end restaurant or a fast food service restaurant.  I mean, these are all types of things that we have at our disposal to go out and sell advertisers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11052             Now, specifically with this radio station we would be targeting our target ‑‑ if there was one person up there it would be arguably a 40‑year old male.  But obviously we would have some females listening at this radio station.  We would have some people that are 30 years old and we would have some people that are 50 years old just because of the nature of the format.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11053             But we would obviously be targeting what that type of consumer would have to offer.  And you know, typically in a market like Owen Sound or anywhere in Canada it would be probably at the higher end of the income scale.  You know, certainly automotive, home improvement, all of that type of thing is where we would be trying to target.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11054             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  So would the cottage country area, would that be typically a higher income level area or not or is it ‑‑ because I'm trying to ‑‑ is it weekenders or ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11055             MR. LARCHE:  In the summertime it's not weekenders.  It's all summer.  The population in that part of Ontario swells by a million people in the summertime.  Unfortunately, it's been difficult not just for us but for any radio station to really monetize it from a ratings point of view because those people are not rated.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11056             But certainly, the impact that they have on the local retail community is quite obvious.  And these people when they come up to their cottage are listening to local radio because it's arguably the only radio they can get, especially if you start getting farther north, you know, than midland.  So the retailers are keenly aware of that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11057             Our business ‑‑ and again, I would probably hazard to say that most radio stations in our region, most of their business is made in the summer months; versus Kitchener, for example, where the summers actually are summer months because everybody is up north.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11058             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11059             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Legal counsel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11060             MR. SMITH:  Thank you.  I just have one following CCD question for you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11061             I would like you to confirm your understanding that of the base annual amount for CCD no less than 60 percent of the stations basic annual CCD contribution will be allocated to either FACTOR and of the remaining amount, if any, may be directed to any eligible CCD initiative at your discretion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11062             MR. LARCHE:  Confirmed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11063             MS SMITH:  Thank you.  That's all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11064             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Larche, you have your two minutes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11065             MR. LARCHE:  Oh, yes, I forgot about that.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires


LISTNUM 1 \l 11066             MR. LARCHE:  I'm not even going to read from notes here.  You know, I think we have made our case fairly well.  We are offering a format that is currently not being offered by any local radio station.  We believe that the BBM research is very credible research to show this, particularly when you compare it against other markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11067             I think we are bringing a significant amount of surveillance and news and local spoken word programming to the market that will reflect Owen Sound and will enhance the lives and the culture and the people of Owen Sound, frankly.  There is going to be many synergy opportunities for us, for our company to get stronger in that part of Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11068             And again, you have several really good applications in front of you.  We don't envy your position.  But we think at the end of the day, especially when you consider the impact that we are going to have on the incumbents and that the incumbent you know didn't intervene on our application, would say that they probably in a perfect world wouldn't want anybody coming in, but if somebody did come in I would assume ‑‑ and I'm not trying to speak for them.  I'm just going on the fact that we didn't get intervened.  I would assume that they would probably prefer it was us and that has to be for a reason.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11069             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Larche, and to your colleagues, thank you very much for your presentation today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11070             MR. LARCHE:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11071             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I understand we have a little housekeeping issue to deal with.  So I apologize for breaking up the day but we are going to take another 15‑minute break.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11072             So we will be back at 2:40.  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1425 / Suspension à 1425

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1440 / Reprise à 1440

LISTNUM 1 \l 11073             THE SECRETARY:  We are ready to begin.  Order, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11074             For the record Blackburn Radio has filed in response to undertakings projected of market listening hours.  This document has been added to the public record and copies are available in the public examination room.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11075             We will now proceed with item 4 which is an application by Evanov Communications Inc. for a licence to operate an English language FM commercial radio programming in Owen Sound.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11076             The new station would operate on frequency 92.3 MHz (channel 222C1) with an effective radiated power of 40,000 watts (non‑directional antenna/antenna height of 181 metres).

LISTNUM 1 \l 11077             Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Bill Evanov.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11078             Please introduce your colleagues and you will have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 11079             MR. EVANOV:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11080             Good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11081             MS LAURIGNANO:  It's afternoon now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11082             MR. EVANOV:  Good afternoon.  It is afternoon.  Sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11083             My name is Bill Evanov and I don't know the time of the day.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11084             MR. EVANOV:  And I am President of Evanov Communications Inc., and before we begin I do want to introduce my panel because they are the backbone of the radio station that makes it work.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11085             Okay.  On my left is Carmela Laurignano, Vice‑President of our radio group.  To her left is Ky Joseph, Vice President of Sales.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11086             On my right is Ted Silver who is responsible for programming in this application.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11087             At the second table to the very left at the edge of it is a new emergent artist, Brian Roman.  Sitting beside him is our legal counsel, Stuart Robertson.  To his right is our CFO, Michael Kilbride; to his right is Sean Moreman who will handle CCD; to Sean's right is Gary Gamble, Program and News Director; to Gary's right is Debra McLaughlin of Strategic Inc. who did the research for this application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11088             I will now begin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11089             Our company is a strong independent broadcaster.  We have been in the radio business for over 30 years and we operate in small, medium and major markets offering a variety of formats.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11090             Our experience and our research tell us that the best choice for Owen Sound is new easy listening, and I would like to walk you through how we came to this conclusion.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11091             Our approach to crafting an application is fairly straightforward and follows a simple process.  We review syndicated data from Stats Canada, BBM, Financial Post markets and economic information from the region.  Then we visit the market, talking to both consumers and advertisers and, finally, we test the formats that our initial analysis suggested would work.  Occasionally, however, as was in the case of Owen Sound, the first step in the analysis led us to test a single format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11092             The findings that led us to this direction were:

LISTNUM 1 \l 11093             First, there is a clear demographic skew in the market.  Almost half of Owen Sound, 44 percent, is over the age of 45 years.  If you go beyond into Meaford, 49.3 percent, and in Wiarton 53 percent is 45 years or more.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11094             Secondly, a review of the BBM data demonstrated there is a significant spill from other markets.  Among the listening choices consumers have are many classic and gold‑based formats on one end of the demographic scale and several current hit formats on the other.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11095             Notably absent from both local radio and spill was any form of easy listening.  An analysis of the audience profiles of the top stations showed a clear skew in the service to younger demos and a measurable decline in tuning among older demographics.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11096             Finally, our in‑market research with consumers and advertisers showed that the great enthusiasm was for a format that provided new programming and new music for the new mature market.  Our proposal is for The Jewel, a new easy listening station, a format we pioneered.  It will be unique in Owen Sound and because of the high level of local content unique among our ECI stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11097             The essence of the format is to play soft melodic music.  Songs are selected by their sound and not by their hit status on the charts.  Because we blend a variety of music genres from different eras, listeners can expect to hear the best of the best and enjoy a wide variety of selections.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11098             But new easy listening is neither nostalgia or oldies.  Our format includes 40 percent new music.  Listeners tell us this approach of blending old with new is both refreshing, different and exciting to listen to.  Visualize or imagine Barbra Streisand singing The Way We Were from the seventies followed by Toni Braxton in the nineties and then Josh Groban and Dido from 2005, and then an instrumental by Jesse Cook, this followed by a Tony Bennett duet with Diana Krall or K.D. Lang.  The sound is distinctive, the selections are timeless and the artists are consumer favourites.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11099             ECI has a proud tradition of exceeding minimum Canadian content requirements and The Jewel in Owen Sound will not be an exception to this.  The new easy listening format has a rich array of Canadian talent to draw from.  Canadian artists and their genre include Serena Ryder, Michael Bublé, Molly Johnson, Matt Dusk, Lhasa de Sala, Amy Sky, Mark Jordan and many more.  This is why we can commit to 40 percent content over the broadcast week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11100             Further, our format means that many artists can produce in the genre so the supply of current selections is significant and growing by the day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11101             Who could have imagined years ago that The Great American Songbook would be recorded by a pop artist like Rod Stewart or that Cyndi Lauper would give fresh life to standards?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11102             And now I am going to ask Ted Silver to speak to the elements of The Jewel format and how they complement what is available in the market.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11103             MR. SILVER:  The music proposed for The Jewel is currently not played on any local station and our initial research show that approximately 80 percent of the music line vary, from which we select our music was not currently carried by local stations.  Subsequent to the initial examination we supplied Strategic Inc. with tapes from the market and our logs from the closest proxy station we could find, The Jewel in Ottawa, and commissioned a separate duplication analysis.  The results from this assessment demonstrated how clearly compatible our proposal is.  The only station with any measurable duplication was CFOS and only 6 percent of music selections played in breakfast and drive on this station were played at some point during a full week of The Jewel in Ottawa.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11104             The incumbent FM stations in the market target generally the 25‑54 demographic.  But on closer inspection, the two FMs actually garner most of their listening hours from the 25‑44 age group with their pop/rock leaning formats.  The AM news talk station features some music but the limited selections are mostly rock and roll oldies during the day and nostalgia at night.  Our analysis shows that the music in this timeframe is mostly rooted in the thirties, forties, fifties and the early sixties.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11105             By contrast, we will play 40 percent current music and we will play a minimum of 10 percent category 3 selections over the course of the broadcast week.  We will also play 15 percent of our tracks from the instrumental category.  This represents airplay for a group of artists who have been truly abandoned by most current formats and are deserving of a place in the radio spectrum.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11106             To round out our play list we will include 35 percent pop music, 25 percent soft A/C and 15 percent new and older standards.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11107             To put The Jewel sound fully into perspective, we can breakdown the distribution of tracks by era.  In addition to playing the aforementioned 40 percent of music from the years 2000 to today, 27 percent will be from the eighties and nineties and 33 percent from before 1980.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11108             The Jewel will be eclectic and engaging and something that the 45‑plus demo of Owen Sound, Meaford and Wiarton enthusiastically told us they would listen to.  Our Owen Sound station will demonstrate it is possible to have high quality programming that also showcases new talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11109             Because of the recent resurgence in the format there has been an upswing in the number of artists creating in this format.  For this reason and the under exposure of instrumental performers in Canadian radio overall, ECI can easily commit to dedicating 30 percent of our Canadian content to the new and emerging category.  This means that fully 12 percent of our schedule will be new talent.  We can accomplish this by playing more artists and including their recordings in all parts of a broadcast day.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11110             In addition to endorsing our proposed music format, respondents to the consumer survey indicated a high interest in news and, in particular, local news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11111             I will now ask Gary Gamble to address the spoken word element of the application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11112             MR. GAMBLE:  The news and spoken word element of The Jewel's broadcast week is an important and distinguishing element of our proposal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11113             92 percent of respondents place a high importance of news content and in particular local news and weather.  Owen Sound is the hub of an area including Meaford, Thornbury, Chatsworth, Markdale and Wiarton.  Each of these communities has news and issues to cover and will have six people dedicated to gathering and presenting the news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11114             The Jewel will provide news updated 13 times a day Monday through Friday and five times per day on the weekends.  Our total news programming amounts to five hours and 22 minutes of headline news per week.  We will also provide headline and weather updates and a number of comprehensive information features.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11115             Our community calendar will focus on local and regional events and activities while information on the markets and business will be covered by our business reports.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11116             Health Watch will include a summary of the latest findings in wellness and health advances.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11117             The Georgian Bay All Season Report will focus on seasonal conditions such as marine, golf, ski and trail updates.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11118             Our movie and book feature will allow listeners in Owen Sound and area to plan their leisure time.  Movie releases will focus on what is coming into the Bruce Peninsula and what is also new on DVD.  Our overall spoken‑word programming will comprise 16.5 hours per week, which constitutes 13.2 per cent of our program schedule.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11119             Owen Sound has been the hub of the Bruce Peninsula since the early nineteenth century.  It is a place with a strong history, the home of Tom Thompson, Billy Bishop, Nellie McClung and the recent winner of the Giller Prize for Fiction, Elizabeth Hay.  It is a place of the future with its Junior A hockey team, its schools, community college and its strong economy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11120             Our spoken word will celebrate this rich heritage and anchor our commitment to local reflection.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11121             MR. EVANOV:  Sean Moreman will now take you through the various important CCD initiatives we have made as part of this application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11122             MR. MOREMAN:  The Jewel has committed $700,000 to developing Canadian content in this application.  In addition to the contribution to FACTOR, we will also contribute a further $557,200 over seven years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11123             The Catalogue of Canadian Instrumental Music, an initiative we first proposed in our Ottawa application, is becoming a vital resource for instrumental artists.  It is a place where they can post their music and provide access to others, including record producers, radio station programmers and event organizers.  Feedback on the initiative has been extremely positive.  CIRPA has dropped its own collection of this music in their online database and, instead, is now using the catalogue to collect artists and titles in this genre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11124             The catalogue is much more than an online library.  It is a promotional tool that was included in the recent trade mission to Japan and has showcased Canadian artists in London, New York and Germany.  Notable Canadian artists such as Canadian Brass have began to upload music and promote the site to their fans.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11125             The Georgian Bay Symphony is an important institution based in Owen Sound.  Given our commitment to instrumental music, supporting the symphony was a natural fit for The Jewel.  Our investment will assist the musicians in the orchestra who wish to continue their careers as instrumental artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11126             ECI is a strong supporter of expanding access to the broadcasting system by people who, by reason of some disability, have difficulty obtaining that access.  Consequently, The Jewel will make an annual contribution to the University of Toronto Adaptive Technology Centre to assist them in the training of captioners and description writers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11127             Every year for the past 32 years the Summerfolk festival has been held in Owen Sound. Artists such as Shirley Eikhard and Bruce Cockburn have performed at this festival.  The venue continues to be an important opportunity for both established and new Canadian artists.  The Jewel will support this local festival by contributing $10,000 annually.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11128             We will also contribute $14,600 annually for the duration of the licence to the Aboriginal Media Education Fund to assist on‑the‑job training, specialized education, mentoring and skills development in the area of audio production.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11129             MR. EVANOV:  And now, Ky will share with you the results of our advertising survey.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11130             MS JOSEPH:  Thank you.  In conducting our market assessment my team of experienced sales staff spoke to literally hundreds of advertisers.  The message they brought back was clear, consistent and supportive of our business plan.  Owen Sound and the surrounding area needs a station that serves the 45 plus audience and provides an efficient way of reaching arguably the richest consumers in the Canadian population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11131             Rather than paraphrase, I will read you some quotes we collected.  "Having a different broadcaster would make radio more affordable for us."  "We want to advertise with a medium that delivers results efficiently."  Filed with our application are letters from many advertisers expressing similar levels of enthusiasm and support.  Importantly, they indicate that we can develop new revenues.  Our format will attract new advertisers because we offer something different.  We are new to the market, which means advertisers will sample us and advertisers are currently using other media to reach our core demo.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11132             MR. EVANOV:  We are the right choice for this market because, number one, we offer complimentary programming that is currently not available from either local radio or (inaudible)(@0424of1448) services which will result in the addition of a truly new consumer choice.  Our format will serve the largest group in the population.  Our commitment to news and spoken word ensures unparalleled local reflection and, because we represent a new voice in the market, we offer true diversity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11133             Our CCD commitment is substantial with significant commitments to local initiatives, it is also the largest of any applicant before you.  We will exceed the regulated Canadian content and commit 40 per cent of our schedule to promote Canadian artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11134             We will dedicate 30 per cent of our Canadian content to new and emerging artists  This represents the highest commitment in these hearings and is one of the highest in the broadcast system.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11135             Now, I would like to introduce you to a new emerging artist who will perform a sample of the music that we play on The Jewel.  His name is Brian Roman, and he has had a dream to sing and entertain, but he was always told the music he liked was too limited.  Then came Michael Bublé, Rod Stewart, Barry Manilow with their easy‑listening recordings.  And so he produced his first CD on his own and took it to numerous radio stations to get it aired.  They all told him his CD is not in their demo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11136             He performs on a regular basis across Ontario and we would like him to perform here today for you as part of our application to sample the sound of The Jewel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11137             Brian Roman.

‑‑‑ Musical interlude / Intermède musical

‑‑‑ Applause / Applaudissements

LISTNUM 1 \l 11138             MR. EVANOV:  We thank you for the opportunity of presenting our application and we look forward to the opportunity of answering any questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11139             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Evanov and to your colleagues.  Thank you, Mr. Roman, it is not often we get live music and hard to live up to the old blue eyes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11140             Commissioner Menzies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11141             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11142             To begin with, I have a couple of technical areas that I want to touch on in terms of your commitments.  One is regarding the University of Toronto Adaptive Technologies Resource Centre.  And it is noted here that the policy supports the eligibility of audio content initiatives.  And as you have presented it, the U of T is committed to funding the training of "description writers and captioners."

LISTNUM 1 \l 11143             Can you help with that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11144             MR. EVANOV:  I will ask Sean to respond to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11145             MR. MOREMAN:  Well, Commissioner, firstly, the description writers are to be read, it is for television programming that blind people are viewing, if you will.  But they describe what is happening on screen, so that would qualify under the audio content requirement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11146             The second aspect is for deaf people.  And if we were going to take a narrow reading of the audio content rule, that would exclude a lot of people who have hearing difficulties or are hearing impaired.  So we feel that a broader reading of subparagraph (5) of paragraph 108 should be read to include both the captioners as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11147             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay, thank you.  If the Commission were to find that that didn't qualify, do you have alternate plans?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11148             MS MOREMAN:  Yes, that particular funding would be directed to FACTOR.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11149             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay, thank you.  Also, regarding the Catalogue of Instrumental Music, can you clarify for us on that how that, you know, to put in the vernacular, how that translates into a jingle in the jeans of the performers?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11150             MR. EVANOV:  I will ask both Carmela and, the author of the catalogue, and Sean to respond to that.  We will start with Sean.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11151             MR. MOREMAN:  As Ted mentioned or alluded to in our presentation, instrumental music is a bit of a cottage industry and record production for instrumental artists is not broad stream and happens often times in people's basements.  What the catalogue does is it allows them a broad‑based exposure, both geographically, as it is on the internet anyone around the world can access their works, as well as cross media.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11152             The catalogue is being directed towards both record producers, people in the broadcast industry, but as well as the film industry.  As an example, the catalogue did have a booth at the Toronto International Film Festival where it received a number inquiries from the film industry who were looking to source instrumental music.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11153             Further to that, the Department of Heritage took the catalogue with it on their junket to Japan for the trade mission that they had there.  And CIRPA has also brought it with them to music shows in both Germany and will be going to the United Kingdom.  So there is quite a bit of promotion of Canadian instrumental music that is happening as a result of the catalogue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11154             So to answer your question most directly how does this add up to jingle in the pockets, well, it is because all of those people around the world in a variety of media, who are looking to source and use instrumental music, now have somewhere to go and find these people who otherwise didn't have an opportunity or a means to promote themselves.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11155             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  I was looking at its website here.  Is there going to be more?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11156             MS LAURIGNANO:  If I could add to that, Commissioner.  The catalogue is a work in progress.  It was an initiative that was approved with our Ottawa application.  And we are committed to it over the terms of our licence.  And understanding that there has been a review, the new commercial policy has come out, and that has changed some definitions or some initiatives, we are aware of that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11157             We believe that the catalogue should qualify.  Regardless, we believe that it is a good initiative.  And when it was conceived and devised and planned it was so that it could be a standalone over the terms of that one licence.  So while this would add to the catalogue in terms of adding more features and the development, it has enough resources there to be sustained for the full term of the licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11158             And it is now in the public domain and we are extremely happy to see how it is being used and what an instrument it has become both for the artists and the industry, as Sean mentioned.  And we even envision the future with the catalogue, whether it qualifies as an initiative or not.  But should this initiative not qualify, then we have plans to redirect that money for this particular application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11159             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay, where to?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11160             MS LAURIGNANO:  And that would got to Summerfolk, and Sean can just speak to how we have made some preliminary inquiries into how it would be specifically directed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11161             MR. MOREMAN:  Yes, that is correct.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11162             Before I talk about Summerfolk, though, we just want to say as well that the catalogue sampling has begun online so that people can, in fact, listen to the works that have been uploaded.  And we are currently in the process of adding links to the artist‑specific sites.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11163             Following up on what Carmela said, we do have a commitment from Brenda Scott at the Georgian Bay Folk Society, that if they were to receive additional funds over and above what we had committed to them specifically, it would be used for their Artists in the Schools program.  That programs sees musical artists going into the schools to encourage youth to take up music and to talk about their experiences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11164             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you. Could you confirm, please, your understanding that, if licensed, your station will have to contribute a basic annual CCD contribution imposed by regulation based on the station's total annual revenues and in the amounts as set out in paragraph 16 of new radio policy public notice CRTC‑2006‑158?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11165             MR. EVANOV:  Yes, we fully understand.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11166             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  And could you confirm your understanding that of this base annual amount no less than 60 per cent of the station's basic annual CCD contribution must be allocated to either FACTOR or MusicAction and the remaining amount, if any, may be directed to any eligible CCD initiatives at your discretion?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11167             MR. EVANOV:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11168             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11169             If the Commission decided to open up this market how many licences should Owen Sound handle, new licences?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11170             MR. EVANOV:  Right now, there are three local stations, there are two outside stations that do very well in the market.  The Blackburn stations, The Bull, that everyone has spoken about today, plus there is also CKNX, which is a Hot A/C, also a Blackburn station in the market.  Collectively, they garner about a 20 share, which is considerable in the market.  They may have an impact on retail, but they also have a definite impact on national dollars that come into then market and then flow directly out.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11171             With Bayshore, they have the Hot AC, the have a country, they have a news talk with oldies.  And with the applicants today, the proposals are basically for rock and I think we are adding more rock to an area that already has considerable rock.  And basically, I guess we believe there should be one applicant and it should be at the end of the market that is not served, which is the 45 plus demo.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11172             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay, thank you.  How will your 100 hours a week of local programming breakdown?  How is it divided up?  How much is live to air, for instance?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11173             MR. EVANOV:  All our programs are live with announcers, just the overnight show is not, that would be voice tracked.  The minimum is 100, but we will probably exceed that and I think we put it in as a safety in case there is something along that we want to produce or do or be creative.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11174             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  How much of your programming do you anticipate being shared?  I mean, you may have just answered that, but in terms of within your own company, is the overnight produced by your company as well?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11175             MR. EVANOV:  It is produced by the local station in Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11176             We are out to establish a local Owen Sound radio station with live local announcers, the spoken word will ensure that it is a very local station and it is not in anyway carried from another station or programs or traded.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11177             The only thing the stations will share will be the library that they can pick from, plus any resource material, such as we have Health Watch and whether it is mammograms, whether it is PSA, there will be resource material on those items.  That can be passed to the station, but in the end Owen Sound will have its own program director and music director who will make various decisions in terms of tweaking the music or in terms of content that goes on air.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11178             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  What other synergies do you expect to benefit from within your..?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11179             MR. EVANOV:  The only synergies are engineering.  Our library is a source, as I mentioned, resource material is a synergy, engineering and beyond that expertise and advice. We have people who have been with the radio station that know that we are standalone in a number of markets and we will need that expertise in Owen Sound, obviously, with five stations there.  But that is the only thing, there is no other.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11180             MS LAURIGNANO:  There might be some synergies from time to time in the news department, because each of our stations, as Bill mentioned, is a locally‑run station with its own staff, whether in Halifax or Ottawa or Hawkesbury soon.  Each station has its own news department.  So what happens is our news directors come together through company policy and on designated times of the year to get to know each other so they can pick‑up the phone and see if something is happening that they can share.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11181             A recent example is you heard about the no‑smoking ban in Wolfville, Nova Scotia.  So Shane Wilson, who is our news director there happened to have somebody who was in the station doing something and he called the Orangeville station and spoke with the news director there and they were able to feed, you know, the interview from there to that studio there.  And we have used those kinds of synergies in the past very very well.  But ultimately, it is always the local news director or the program director who decides what goes on the air or not.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11182             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  And could you, just continuing in that vein, just give me a fuller understanding of your news operation in that sense?  I have read it as news updates and I am curious to know whether this is enterprise reporting or, you know, rip 'n' reading or somewhere in between?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11183             MR. EVANOV:  Well, let us go right to the news director, Gary Gamble.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11184             Gary.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11185             MR. GAMBLE:  I will give you a thumbnail sketch of our news, how we are proposing to do it.  News alone is 5.4 hours per week.  That is based on mornings and afternoons, five minutes of headline news at the top of the hours, both mornings and afternoons, and 90‑second updates at the bottom of the hour during drive periods, 10 times on the weekends also.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11186             Those newscasts are broken down  50 per cent local and 30 per cent regional or provincial and then 20 per cent national or international.  That 5.4 hours encompasses 4.36 per cent of our total spoken word, which is 13.2 per cent overall.  This now, is outside of what the announcers are talking about when it comes to surveillance, weather updates, that sort of thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11187             We also have allotted for what we call announcer talk alone, another 7 hours per week of that.  If you include in that also our traffic features which covers another 2.62 hours, which is four per hour during the drive periods also and on Friday and Sunday evenings for cottage country travellers, that is factored into that also.  Then we also consider our features news‑based.  A lot of those, for example, business reports, we are letting people know what is going on.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11188             First of all, what is happening in Owen Sound, in the area, if there is layoffs or business material that listeners need to know about, it will be included in there.  If there is something national that has to be included in that business report, of course, it will be included in there.  Health watch is another feature that we are going to be running, it would run once per day, seven days a week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11189             And in that particular area of Owen Sound alone, right now a top news story that we would cover in the news and also in that health watch program is the doctor shortage, which is a huge issue there right now, so we would cover that there.  The Owen Sound Hospital is having an isotope shortage as of yesterday, so that sort of thing we would cover in the newscasts, but also more in‑depth in that health watch aspect of the news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11190             We also cover an all‑season report as another feature that is news‑based but also letting people know what is going on around the Owen Sound area.  It is a beautiful area, skiing, golfing.  It is just beautiful up there.  So once a day, seven days a week, we would do that based on the season.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11191             The movie and book report runs three times over the course of a week, letting people know about new releases.  If there is something specific to the Owen Sound area, an author has something that should be included, we will make sure that that is in, along with DVD releases and that sort of a thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11192             13.2 percent of what I just told you then covers our total spoken‑word commitment or 16.7 hours per week based on 126 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11193             It is also not a rip‑and‑read type news operation.  We have six people who will cover that news department.  Two of those are full‑time covering morning and afternoon.  Middays and the weekends are covered by also a few part‑time reporters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11194             And to make sure we have got it all covered on the outside of Owen Sound, in Georgian Bay and the Bruce area we have two stringers reporting back to the newsroom to fill in any other news that is relevant and has to be reported.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11195             We also employ a number of interns.  We put a nice intern package together in the Newmarket area that we are quite proud of.  We provide training and mentoring and in return for that use the services of interns based on 100 hours per week.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11196             For example, from Georgian College we would bring their students on board to give them a good grasp of what a newsroom is working but it is not something we want to consider cheap labour.  It is to use their resources and hopefully teach them what a proper broadcast news outlet is and how it would run and services and that sort of thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11197             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay, thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11198             In your overview of the health of the market, you pointed to the presence of big box retailers in the area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11199             I am curious to know:  Do big box retailers stimulate advertising or do they depress it, and if they do stimulate it, how so?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11200             MR. EVANOV:  They definitely stimulate it but I will ask Ky, our V‑P Sales, to speak to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11201             MS JOSEPH:  Well, that is a question that a lot of people have asked and I think that Mr. Evanov is right, I think that it stimulates it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11202             I think that the strong local retailers that are in the market, that have been entrenched in the market for a long time, have the ability to sustain the bigger box stores.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11203             I also think that a lot of the local retailers have gone into more of a niche market, so to speak, and I can personally speak on ‑‑ as part of devising revenue for this particular business plan, we took 12 professional salespeople into the market.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11204             We devised three separate teams of four individuals and we went into, first of all, Owen Sound, the west side, the downtown core and then Heritage Place Shopping Centre, which is east of the city.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11205             We each conducted what we call our street‑level marketing model which includes playing a sample CD of what the station would sound like so the advertisers can get a really, really good understanding of what the station would sound like.  We also provided them with literature.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11206             We really dug deep and spoke to them to find out who they are currently advertising with and what their challenges are in the marketplace.  In fact, their challenges, not one out of 123 retailers said to us that their challenges are big box stores.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11207             As a matter of fact, what they said was that there was ‑‑ the majority of them ‑‑ that there was no real outlet for them to advertise efficiently in order to generate the kind of business that they needed to sustain.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11208             Also, I would like to throw this to Debra, our researcher, who actually did a study on the economy of the marketplace.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11209             MS McLAUGHLIN:  It is true that all big box stores do not spend but the list we provided you in the summary actually contained stores that do spend locally.  Canadian Tire, for example, typically has a budget on the local level, as does Zellers and several others.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11210             But the importance of big box stores and why you draw attention to them is because they are able to draw a larger clientele from outside the area because these stores have well‑established brands with or without advertising.  Their flyers go well beyond the area that they are located to draw people in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11211             So what it does is it attracts other advertisers in the market to advertise because they know if these people are coming into the market to go to Home Depot, for example, maybe they would like to eat out or maybe they would like to go to a unique clothing or hardware store or whatever.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11212             But it is a huge draw to that market and what it does is it stimulates other advertisers to participate, sometimes to compete but also just to simply take advantage of those people coming into the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11213             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  While I have got you on the button there, you did a survey of 600 people; is that correct?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11214             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11215             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Can you tell me the margin of error on 600 people?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11216             MS McLAUGHLIN:  We don't calculate margin of error on the full sample, we calculate it on the format.  I just want to make that point because in this case we only measured one format for that very reason, so we could have a fairly accurate survey.  It is plus or minus 2 percent on this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11217             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  I am interested in the economics of that demographic group that you have targeted.  As was indicated, it is the richest segment of the marketplace.  It is also known to be the segment of the marketplace that already has stuff in terms of cars or houses or fridges or stoves or consumer items.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11218             Where do you see them being most drawn to goods?  I mean which forms of advertising are going to be the most attractive to them to stimulate them to actually buy and is there enough in that market for you?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11219             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Well that is ‑‑ you have asked the question that media planners have asked since they got into this business.  I was a media planner and what we had to do was try to figure out who was using what media in what market and try to draw from a very local perspective some sort of national or regional plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11220             The fact of the matter is that each media has its own opportunities and advantages for an advertiser and the best plans ‑‑ and I think most people would agree with this ‑‑ don't involve a single media, they involve a combination.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11221             In the case of radio it is portable, it goes wherever they go, it is the perfect companion in the car, at home it is background but the ads still get through.  I think people are mistaken that they think you have to hear an ad consciously for it to work.  I go to a store and try and explain why you pick one brand over another.  That ad is working at another level.  So radio is recognized as being highly effective.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11222             I think there is an awful lot of advertisers who target particularly 55+ by newspaper.  What you try to do is not say newspaper doesn't work.  What you say is:  If you add radio advertising to your newspaper buy, you have a more effective campaign because you have something that they can read and process and when they are out close to their purchasing decision it reminds them.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11223             So in that sense, I don't think you can identify a single medium for this group or any of them but if I was talking about where the money would come from, I think an awful lot would come, in other media, from newspaper.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11224             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  I see.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11225             MR. EVANOV:  May I ask:  Were you asking specifically about the age of the market in terms of buying power?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11226             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  The age of the market.  I mean I understand that ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11227             MR. EVANOV:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11228             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  I am not being contentious ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11229             MR. EVANOV:  No, no.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11230             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  ‑‑ that they have lots of money, it is just they usually have lots ‑‑ it is commonly felt within the advertising buying market that one of the reasons they have lots of money is they are not buying anything anymore.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11231             MR. EVANOV:  Yes.  Well, I would like to give you an example.  I will start and then Ky will come in there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11232             Forty‑five to 65 is no longer considered old.  It used to be.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11233             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Oh! Good.  That is good news for all of us here, especially me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11234             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Speak for yourself.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11235             MR. EVANOV:  When we think in terms of ‑‑ whether it is Paul McCartney, Mick Jagger or Bill Evanov, we are in an age demo that may be closer to the upper end of this but we don't stop buying.  We buy cars every two or three years.  We buy suits to come to CRTC hearings.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11236             MR. EVANOV:  We are always buying and I don't think you stop buying.  I think the perception that you stop buying is incorrect and I think you buy better things, more quality things.  You spend more money on maybe lesser items.  Years ago you bought the old Chevrolet or you bought the Pontiac and now maybe you are moving to the Oldsmobile, the Buick, the Cadillac or the Jaguar or the BMW, depending on your income.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11237             I will let Ky respond more to that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11238             MS LAURIGNANO:  I just have one thing to add.  Being somewhere in that demo, without revealing my real age, now I don't buy things I need, I buy things I like because I can afford them.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11239             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  I think ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11240             MS JOSEPH:  But actually ‑‑ oh! I am sorry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11241             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  No, go ahead, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11242             MS JOSEPH:  I was just going to say too, to just be a little bit more factual to your question, after speaking with over 100 advertisers or over 100 business people who want to advertise to that demographic, they have responded to that demographic in that community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11243             We are very familiar with the 45‑64 demographic and so we have devised categories that this particular demographic is interested in purchasing.  They include automotive, home improvements, home furnishings and decor, travel, leisure is a huge category, health services, private health services, naturopathy, housing ‑‑ many of them have more than one home ‑‑ and financial services and investments.  Those are only to name a few.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11244             So if I hear one more time that my parents are spending my inheritance ‑‑


‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11245             MS JOSEPH:  It is amazing, it really is.  As Carmela mentioned, it is not necessarily what they want but what they need.  It is a fact and what we are looking to do is respond to the business communities in that marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11246             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  And do you have commitments from those advertisers?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11247             MS JOSEPH:  Yes, we do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11248             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Good!

LISTNUM 1 \l 11249             MR. EVANOV:  We submitted with our application, I think, almost 100 letters from the business retailers in the Owen Sound area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11250             MS JOSEPH:  And actually I just want to add to that as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11251             Of those people that gave us support letters in that community, there were so many advertisers who didn't have a fax or e‑mail, which is true, so it was impossible for us to go back and then get letters of support.  So I would venture to say that it would be up around the 150 letters had they had the means to get us those letters.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11252             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  I know you have spoken to this a little bit and done some research on this but I just want to give you the opportunity to sort of address this one point again.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11253             Your format is markedly different from some of the other formats we have heard described.  In some of them when I heard the description of the Owen Sound area, in the summertime, cottage country, rock and roll, I kept thinking of a beer commercial.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11254             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Yours gives a different sort of image of Owen Sound in terms of its attractiveness.  I am not saying it is not fun and it isn't about fun but you seem to have discovered something that these other fellows haven't.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11255             How did you come to that and how do you explain the difference?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11256             MR. EVANOV:  The difference between the formats?  I guess if I back up a little bit, I grew up in the days of rock.  I mean when I was a teenager I was buying ‑‑ I was going to say CDs but it was vinyl then and it was rock and roll initially and then rock.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11257             But I think as you go through life and you become a little more mature or as you get older, you get to appreciate a different type of music as well.  I still like rock but I have grown to appreciate other kinds of music too.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11258             So today I can listen to El Divo, I can listen to Bocelli, I can listen to Nana Mouskouri.  I can listen to so many artists that in my younger years I never would have dreamt that I would listen to them.  And as life went on, I found Frank Sinatra, the music of Sinatra and Tony Bennett.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11259             I think we walk through life and the appreciation for music elevates and we get exposed to greater music beyond what we did when we were young and teenagers.  There is nothing wrong with rock.  It is great and I still like good rock but I also like the softer sound of certain music as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11260             So we looked at the Owen Sound market.  We did an economic study, we did a demand study and a format study and they came back very positive.  We looked at the demographics, the information on the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11261             When you have a market that almost 50 percent of the population is 45+ then you have to think in terms of a broader type of music than maybe that has been repeated.  I would think that in the past many people go for the rock format because that is where the money has been for many, many years and I think Blackburn has discovered that by being number one 25‑54 or 25‑44.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11262             Carmela, maybe you want to add to this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11263             MS LAURIGNANO:  I was just going to add, yes, that one of the considerations is, in putting it together you have to look at the landscape, which we did, and for all intents and purposes it doesn't matter really where the stick is, the fact is that Owen Sound is being served with rock and roll.  It is a number one station in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11264             So what could we do to add diversity to it and what could we do to make sure that we had a sustainable business plan, one that we could carve for ourselves without extreme impact on the existing broadcaster or the existing services because you have to treat that as an incumbent?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11265             As I say, it doesn't matter where the stick is, it is the fact that it is being served.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11266             So when we looked at the age of the population, you know, that it is way over the national and provincial, when we looked at the findings of the research and when we looked at, for example, what we could offer that is different, right now, we will skew female more than male.  All the other applicants, rock and roll, as you know, rock tends to skew male and when we looked at all the players, there is a heavy skew for male.  So we intend to attract a larger female audience.  So it just made sense.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11267             So based on all those factors we developed a business plan and from there we went to the advertisers and they said yes, they would support it.  There is a lot of money for this demo.  The 45‑64 year old demographic is pretty good coin in your jeans, as you said.  I forgot exactly what you said.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11268             So yes, the possibility for us made a lot of sense and it fit.  The business plan fits.  It allowed us to put back in the system, including a considerable investment in the CCD initiatives, which, as you know, is quite considerable and the highest here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11269             We could introduce new music in the format as well up to the level of 12 percent for the whole broadcast week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11270             I think Ted may have something to add.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11271             MR. SILVER:  Well, I just wanted to ‑‑ more from purely a programming perspective.  When you look at the Owen Sound market, you have a rock station.  Regardless of where it is from, it looks to be pretty successful if it is number one in adults 25‑54.  It could be coming from Venus, it seems to be the rock station in Owen Sound.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11272             You have the other stations who more or less all run after basically the same demographic and you see that not only in Owen Sound but virtually in most other markets across North America.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11273             What really is missing in this market in terms of not only the demographic, although the demographic in Owen Sound tends to be a little bit older than perhaps the national average, there is no soft music format in that market.  There is in virtually every other market, including the city that we are in right now and most other cities in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11274             That is absent.  These people are not being served.  A lot of these people are either listening to other radio stations for other reasons and may not be totally satisfied but listen because they get the local news or the traffic or whatever it is but may not be totally satisfied.  It is a second choice sort of thing or out‑of‑market or satellite or iPod or internet or not listening at all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11275             It is an opportunity for us to service these people who are not being satisfied in the market with a soft format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11276             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11277             Earlier today, Blackburn mentioned that they estimated there was the potential for about $900,000 in growth of new advertising.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11278             In your business model, potential new source you have $105,000 increase in budgets of existing radio advertisers and $105,000 in new advertisers.  That is about roughly a $700,000 difference.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11279             Would you care to comment on that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11280             MR. EVANOV:  I will ask Ky to comment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11281             But when we did the application, we don't know the actual numbers of the local station or the actual numbers even of the Blackburn station.  So we had to look at the market itself, the retail sales and all the other factors and come up with a budget.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11282             Ky.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11283             MS JOSEPH:  As I mentioned before, we do know that the market is healthy.  We do know that the market can not only sustain another radio station but that needs another radio station based on the advertiser demand study that we did.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11284             $700,000 will meet our business plan.  We have also factored in 14 percent market growth over the term of the licence, which is, albeit, 2 percent but we have still factored that in.  But whether that actually happens or not, it is not going to impact our business plan.  We will still be able to be profitable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11285             And again, there are several factors that we look at which we believe to be very realistic and conservative for our business plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11286             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  Thank you for your patience and I will turn things back over to the Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11287             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11288             I just have a couple of follow‑up questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11289             A hundred hours live to air, 26 hours voice‑tracked?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11290             MS LAURIGNANO:  What we have said is that we commit to a minimum of 100 and we have no plans now to do anything but the 126.  The 120 is over the licence term should we rely on it or from the get‑go and forever, hopefully, we intend to do local 100 percent unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11291             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So right now there are no plans to do syndicated programming, for example?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11292             MS LAURIGNANO:  No plans.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11293             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Thank you for that clarification.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11294             You did say in your application that 80 percent is not duplicated, 80 percent of the proposed playlist is not currently duplicated in the market, and in your supplementary brief you say that you will play 40 percent current music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11295             That 40 percent of current music also is not duplicated in the market?  In other words, I won't hear artists on this station that, say, are currently being played on CIXK?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11296             MR. EVANOV:  If it is new, how can we know?  In other words, if it is ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11297             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, it is current, not ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11298             MR. EVANOV:  Okay, but current ‑‑ there might be some duplication.  I think every radio station duplicates.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11299             Ours would be minimal because we produce a melodic soft sound.  We will play new and emerging artists like the one you heard today but there are many other artists that we are also playing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11300             I will ask Ted to comment further.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11301             MR. SILVER:  I would say that Mix 106, CIXK, a Hot AC which targets 25‑34, is really the core of that and so it leans that way, to a much younger, and we are really at the opposite end of the same stick in that they are both female.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11302             As Bill says, there may be a little, a minor amount of duplication but it is very unlikely that it would be to any great degree whatsoever.  It is a totally different artist.  What makes sense ‑‑ you know, if Lionel Ritchie comes out with a new single today, we would probably play it.  They probably wouldn't.  It just doesn't fit the demographic and so we would be looking to serve our core audience, which is far removed from theirs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11303             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  And by the same token, Toni Braxton's current hit might play on both stations but ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11304             MR. SILVER:  It depends on the song too.  I mean you can't really go by artist, it is really by title.  Toni Braxton has songs that we wouldn't touch and they would and there are others that we play that they wouldn't touch.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11305             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And if you launch with Marc Jordan's "When Rita Took the A‑Train," that would be a good thing?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11306             MR. SILVER:  Is that a request?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11307             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I get my pitches in any way I can.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11308             I am now reverting back to my grade 12 math again and talking about spoken‑word programming.  The total is 16 ‑‑ did I hear it correctly, 16.7 hours?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11309             MR. GAMBLE:  16.7 hours, that is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11310             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Of which 5.4 hours are news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11311             MR. GAMBLE:  Strictly news, 5.4.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11312             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Strictly news, not including surveillance material?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11313             MR. GAMBLE:  Not including surveillance, not including traffic reports or features.  That is outside of the 5.4 hours strictly news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11314             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that is included in the 7 hours of announcer talk; is that correct?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11315             MR. GAMBLE:  That is correct, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11316             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Of the 5.4 hours of news ‑‑ again, if you have covered this, I apologize ‑‑ how much is local?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11317             MR. GAMBLE:  Fifty percent of newscasts are local.  Thirty percent is regional or provincial ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 11318             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11319             MR. GAMBLE:  ‑‑ and 20 percent would be national or international.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11320             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And the balance therefore ‑‑ so we have got 12.4 hours of news and announcer talk?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11321             MR. GAMBLE:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11322             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The balance would be made up of the other programming features that you detailed in your supplementary brief?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11323             MR. GAMBLE:  That is correct.  Features, just to be specific, are 1.6 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11324             I will just run it down for you once again.  News only is 5.4 ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11325             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11326             MR. GAMBLE:  ‑‑ traffic, 2.6; features, 1.6; and announcer talk/surveillance would be 7 hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11327             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Thank you for that clarification.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11328             You did say that you don't see having a major impact on the incumbent in the market.  Yet, your advertising projections say that 35 percent of your advertising revenues will come from existing radio stations.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11329             Is that all from the incumbent because I think you ‑‑ it is separate, your out‑of‑market tuning revenue is separate from that 35 percent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11330             MR. EVANOV:  I will let Ky answer this one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11331             MS JOSEPH:  Just to clarify, we included the two Wingham stations, particularly CIBU, as part of impacts on incumbents, because, the fact of the matter is, BBM includes them as being rated for Owen Sound central, as well as CKNX FM.  They are number one, 25 to 54.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11332             What is defined as "local"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11333             If you asked an advertiser or a listener, they would say, for example, that The Bull would be local to them, as would advertisers, which we found out.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11334             So we have included the 35 percent, or $245,000, in our case, to be coming from, really, spread over five radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11335             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you have a percentage that is based solely on the Bayshore stations?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11336             MS JOSEPH:  We don't, although, to the best of our estimates, we believe that anywhere between 5 and 10 percent would come from Blackburn.  Therefore, the remainder would come from Bayshore.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11337             And because they sell their cluster, in many cases, together, as a buy, we don't know internally how they allocate their revenues, so it is really hard to ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11338             We really have to estimate that it would be shared over the three stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11339             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms Joseph, one of the reasons you come to CRTC hearings is that, hopefully, you won't have to depend on your parents' inheritance.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11340             MS JOSEPH:  I hope not.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11341             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I have one final question.  You mentioned in your oral presentation that 15 percent of your tracks are from the instrumental category.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11342             If you saw me frantically searching my laptop, it is because I was looking for a reference to that 15 percent of instrumental music in your application.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11343             If it is there ‑‑ and I didn't find it ‑‑ I apologize; and if it is, point me to it.  Or, is this something new that you are proposing in terms of your playlist?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11344             MS LAURIGNANO:  No, that is not declared in the application, nor is any music percentage declared in the application at all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11345             It was described as the blending in the genre music that was played throughout the application, and it is one of the elements that has been identified throughout.  But at no time did we do that, nor were we asked to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11346             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  And since you did include it in your oral presentation, which typically includes the most salient points of your application ‑‑ you know what my question is ‑‑ would you accept that, as a minimum, 15 percent of your musical selections will be instrumental?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11347             MS LAURIGNANO:  We would be glad and happy and honoured to do that.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11348             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11349             Legal counsel?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11350             MS SMITH:  I don't have any questions.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11351             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11352             Mr. Evanov, you have your two minutes for the final word.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11353             MR. EVANOV:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11354             To repeat slightly, we believe that we are the right choice for this market, for all of the information we have provided.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11355             We offer programming that is currently not available from either local radio or spill services, which will result in the addition of a truly new consumer choice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11356             We have contributed to this hearing process an economic study of Owen Sound, and a demand study, prepared by a nationally respected research firm, Strategic Inc.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11357             Our format will serve the largest group of the population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11358             Our commitment to news and spoken word ensures unparalleled local reflection, and because we represent a new voice in the market, we offer true diversity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11359             Our programming skews female, which provides further diversity in the Owen Sound radio market, and contrasts us from our competitors in this process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11360             Our CCD commitment is substantial, with significant commitments to local initiatives.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11361             We will exceed the regulated Canadian content and commit 40 percent of our schedule to promoting Canadian artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11362             We will employ 18 persons at our radio station in Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11363             And what has become very important most recently, we will dedicate 30 percent of our Canadian content to new and emerging artists.  This represents the highest commitment in these hearings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11364             Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11365             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Evanov, Ms Laurignano, and your colleagues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11366             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11367             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11368             This completes Phase I.  We have now reached Phase II, in which applicants appear in the same order to intervene on competing applications, if they wish.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 11369             THE SECRETARY:  For the record, 2079966 Ontario Limited, Blackburn Radio Inc., and Evanov Communications have indicated that they would not appear in Phase II.  Therefore, I would invite Larche Communications to come forward if they wish to participate in this phase.


‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 11370             THE SECRETARY:  For the record, Larche Communications Inc. has also advised us that they would not appear in this phase.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11371             Thank you, Madam Chair, this concludes Phase II.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11372             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Continue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11373             THE SECRETARY:  Could I take one minute, please, Madam Chair?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11374             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Let's take five.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11375             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1545 / Suspension à 1545

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1550 / Reprise à 1550

LISTNUM 1 \l 11376             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with Phase III, in which intervenors appear in the order set out in the agenda to present their intervention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11377             For the record, I would like to mention that the intervenor Walkerton and District Health Services Foundation has submitted an intervention in support of the Blackburn Owen Sound application and did ask to appear.  Therefore, they will be appearing second in this phase.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11378             I would now ask Jamie Pettit to present his intervention.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11379             Mr. Pettit, you have 10 minutes for your intervention.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 11380             MR. PETTIT:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11381             Good afternoon, Commissioners.  I have requested to be here today as an intervenor in support of the application by Evanov Communications Incorporated for a radio licence to serve the Greater Owen Sound and Georgian Bay area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11382             As a former program and music director who worked for a period of four years in the aforementioned market, I must say that I was pleasantly surprised to learn of the interest expressed by all of the broadcast companies submitting proposals.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11383             After carefully reviewing all of the applications, I strongly feel that the proposed Jewel format is the one best suited to our region, in that it is the only one offering something different from what we already have, especially in the realm of musical variety.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11384             I can confidently say that the proposed music programming is unlike any other in the market at this time.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11385             During the time when I was programming music in the Owen Sound and surrounding market, 88.5 in Newmarket was an Evanov station that I would often keep my ear on for musical comparison and contrast.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11386             Though there were many interesting artists playing on 88.5 that were nowhere to be found on local radio playlists, the greatest difference lay in the selection of songs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11387             The proposed Jewel application does not stray too far from 88.5, in that there is minimal duplication when compared to other stations in the Owen Sound and surrounding market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11388             When it comes to the signature contemporary artists that many stations play, The Jewel format focuses on rotating some of the less conventional songbooks by these artists, rather than what would be their more obvious contemporary hits.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11389             For example, while an adult contemporary station will play an uptempo Cyndi Lauper song from the 1980s, The Jewel will prefer to focus on selections from one of Lauper's recent tribute albums to the crooners and easy‑listening legends of the past.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11390             Likewise, while an oldies format will incorporate good‑time rock'n'roll vibes from the British Invasion and early soul and R&B, The Jewel will gear its sound more to the softer side of the artists in these genres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11391             It is this unique blend of carefully selected songs from various genres and eras that creates a sound and character all its own.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11392             Unlike many other formats, it is one based primarily on flow, rather than songs from a defined time period.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11393             I would like to speak to the fact that The Jewel is targeting the 45‑plus demographic.  It is important to note that the proposed format has proven to be successful in other much larger markets, such as Ottawa and Toronto's CMA, where a much greater youth population makes it more competitive for stations catering to a more mature demo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11394             I can personally say that I have met many 45‑plus‑year‑olds in our local area who are well aware of The Jewel in Toronto and absolutely love its format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11395             As I mentioned earlier, radio broadcasting is my background, in that I have worked at stations in four different provinces and just as many formats.  However, good broadcasting sense aside, I support this application for another series of reasons.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11396             The position I now hold deals mainly with economic development, business and tourism.  Through this line of work, I also currently sit on the Grey Bruce Regional Economic Development Committee with other representatives from various local communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11397             One of the major topics that is being addressed regionally right now is the massive development happening east of us in Simcoe County.  Many retirees from larger centres, particularly the GTA, are moving next door with a fair amount of disposable income.  The current spillover from this influx and the expectation that it will inevitably spread to our region speaks a lot to the fact that the mature demographic is a very significant one in our area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11398             At the moment, there is no local FM service available to cater to this important and extremely vast demo.  A large portion of this audience must currently tune to out‑of‑market FM frequencies, as the formats offered locally on FM are the younger‑driven adult contemporary, rock and country brands.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11399             Up until now, at least as long as I have resided in the Owen Sound and surrounding area, no attempts have been made to better serve this important demo in the way of an FM application or significant modifications to existing signals.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11400             From the perspective of someone who works closely with businesses, the concept of an additional radio station for the Owen Sound and surrounding area can only be seen as a benefit to the business community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11401             A significant benefit, in my view, is the opportunity of more advertising alternatives.  The introduction of more competitive advertising rates in the market would inevitably make radio advertising more affordable, so that businesses could either spend more or spend for the first time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11402             Some of the smaller businesses that have not been able to compete with big buck advertisers would have a chance to get their message out through radio and, consequently, increase their store traffic and sales.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11403             More diversity in radio advertising options might also bring forth some new and rekindled interest in the radio medium for local businesses.  Basically, more options would translate into more fairness in terms of rates.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11404             A new radio licence in our market should also, inevitably, bring out the best when it comes to the radio products currently available.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11405             Having resided in several other Canadian communities, ranging from 15,000 to more than a million people, I have repeatedly witnessed the fact that increased competition makes for great radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11406             Existing services in the Owen Sound and surrounding area would inevitably fight harder to have the best promotions, contests, visibility in the community, and news coverage.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11407             This would ultimately result in better radio for current and potential listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11408             I have heard it stated before that it is the public who owns the airwaves.  Therefore, the public should be able to find choices on the dial that suit its tastes, instead of listening to a minimal number of options because that is all there is and all that has ever been.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11409             The importance, renown and credibility that the local market can gain through the arrival of a new media outlet can only serve to benefit local businesses and the region as a whole.  The Owen Sound and surrounding area has been perceived as a monopolized, one‑company dominated market for the longest time.  To have a growing, reputable and successful company like the Evanov Radio Group determine through their extensive research that this market would support their proposed radio format demonstrates a definite potential for growth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11410             The evidence can be seen in other Evanov properties.  This is not a company that simply sets up shop anywhere.  Having a reputable company such as the Evanov Radio Group express interest in our region is a morale booster for the area, not only business‑wise, but from the standpoint of community pride as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11411             The approval of such a licence would contribute to a stronger sense of importance locally, as well as inject confidence in the community and local economy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11412             I would be remiss if I did not draw attention to another extremely appealing element in the application by the Evanov Radio Group.  The interest this company has shown in the communities surrounding Owen Sound is commendable, to say the least.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11413             Meford and Thornbury, for instance, are smaller nearby villages that have become increasingly popular with retirees.  These communities have been actively progressing, not only in terms of tourism, but also in the realm of arts and culture.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11414             A precious hidden treasure in our area is the Meford Hall Arts and Cultural Centre.  This historic facility was recently given a multi‑million dollar facelift, and has since been attempting to gain recognition as the premier facility in the region for year‑round performing arts and entertainment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11415             This past summer, the first ever Meford International Film Festival was held at Meford Hall and became a surprise smash success.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11416             Meford is a community that continues to struggle in the face of divided politics, negative publicity in the media, and controversy.  Some of this stems from the growing pains that Meford Hall has had to endure along the way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11417             I am happy to say that the Evanov Radio Group has already been in talks with Meford Hall management about partnerships to better market the facility, should the application for The Jewel be approved.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11418             The potential for Meford Hall and the effect it would have on local businesses is limitless.  From the vantage point of someone who works in Meford daily, I cannot even begin to describe to you the turnaround effect that positive news stories would have on the area.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11419             I can only dream of the even greater impact the Meford International Film Festival, Jazz Festival and other such events would have had with a station like The Jewel behind them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11420             This past Canada Day I was surprised to see an Evanov station cruiser actually make an appearance at one of the local festivities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11421             From what I have researched about Evanov stations in other markets, this company is actively ingrained in the communities it serves.  This is an encouraging ray of light in an industry that is too often criticized for larger broadcast chains that apply a big‑city franchise approach to smaller communities, with minimal hands‑on local involvement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11422             The Evanov Radio Group seems to be particularly supportive of local service clubs in the communities it serves.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11423             I look forward to the prospect of an additional news voice and perspective for Owen Sound and its surrounding communities.  I was very pleased to learn that the Evanov Radio Group intends to implement news gathering facilities in some of the smaller areas.  This demonstrates a genuine local commitment to the area and sense of pride to be competitive.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11424             For these reasons, I urge you to approve the application by Evanov Communications Incorporated and bring radio broadcasting to an exciting new level in the Greater Owen Sound and Georgian Bay area.  We are overdue and ready for it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11425             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11426             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Pettit, for your intervention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11427             You bring quite a unique perspective to these proceedings, because you work in the area, you used to work in radio, and now, with what you are currently doing, you can, hopefully, enlighten us on what is occurring in the area in terms of growth, and specifically for this demographic group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11428             As you know, advertisers aren't very keen on targeting this group.  There are a number of companies that are trying to change that mentality of advertisers.  They all go after 25 to 54.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11429             So what activities have you seen in the area that are going to incent advertisers to say, "We really need to look at this 45‑plus group, and, in particular, at this radio station"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11430             MR. PETTIT:  As I referred to earlier, one of the things that we have addressed in terms of economic development is the growth that is happening in Simcoe County, and it sort of seems to be moving down the highway, and there is great anticipation that eventually, and inevitably, it will spread to our area.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11431             So there is definitely, in terms of local festivals, and also in terms of ‑‑ what Bill referred to earlier, the more mature person nowadays ‑‑ it is not the same perception as it was even 10 or 20 years ago.  There seem to be more activities in terms of when you talk about local skiing and activities like that, and the trails, and all of those types of attributes that our area has.  I think that a lot of the older demographic are taking a much greater interest in that nowadays.  They are keeping fit.  They are joining ski clubs.  They have that disposable income.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11432             We see a difference, also, in some of the businesses that are starting to cater to that demographic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11433             THE CHAIRPERSON:  What are some of those businesses that cater to that older demographic which have become part of the community?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11434             MR. PETTIT:  Definitely some of the ski shops in the Blue Mountain area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11435             Antiquing is something that has sort of become a lot more popular in our area.  We have noticed in Meford, in particular, that some of the businesses there are catering more to that type of thing.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11436             THE CHAIRPERSON:  To your knowledge, these businesses aren't currently advertising on radio in Owen Sound?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11437             MR. PETTIT:  Actually, I can't say for sure that they are advertising on radio, but I know for a fact, through Evanov's research, that they approached businesses such as this.  But whether or not they are spending on local radio, I can't speak for them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11438             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All right.  Thank you.  Like I said, you do offer a unique perspective.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11439             Do my colleagues have any further questions?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11440             Thank you very much, Mr. Pettit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11441             MR. PETTIT:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11442             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11443             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11444             I would now call Walkerton and District Health Services Foundation to come to the presentation table.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 11445             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sit up front.  Come on, people!


LISTNUM 1 \l 11446             Don't leave this guy by himself, sit up front.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11447             THE CHAIRPERSON:  They are not moving.  I'm sorry, I tried.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 11448             MR. McLELLAND:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11449             Madam Chair and Commissioners, my name is Greg McLelland.  I am a director with the Kincardine and Community Health Care Foundation, and I am proud to represent 14 hospital foundations from midwestern Ontario in support of Blackburn's bid for an FM station in Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11450             We ‑‑ and I know that I can speak for the 14 foundations, even though they are hiding behind me ‑‑ are very indebted to the CKNX group of companies and radio stations in Wingham for their radio‑thon program that they started and coordinated and quarterbacked over the last six years, and I believe you heard statistics this morning of how successful it has been.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11451             Without that program, hospitals such as Kincardine's hospital, which I can speak for, would not have raised funds to purchase equipment to replace equipment that is 30 years old.  We are indebted to them for this program.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11452             We actually begin this process in April.  We work our way through the summer ‑‑ and we do get a lot of visitors over the summer ‑‑ and in October ‑‑ it culminates around the third Saturday in October, and we have a radio‑thon at CKNX in Wingham.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11453             We meet monthly in Wingham, as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11454             They provide the facilities, they provide the technical support, and during the summer and leading up to October, they also provide advertising, and support us in our community events as we are fundraising for our various pieces of equipment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11455             Without raising the money through the radio‑thon, our hospitals would not be able to purchase this equipment.  There is nothing in the budgets, and the government is not coming forward with money for us.  So we are totally indebted.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11456             In six years we have raised $3.5 million.  The process itself has evolved to such a state where we have an entity unto our own right now.  The Health Care Heroes has developed a logo, which we are proud to show off today.  We have a jingle on the radio, and throughout midwestern Ontario people now know what Health Care Heroes is all about.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11457             This was a dream started, as I said, six years ago at CKNX, hoping to someday accumulate $1 million.  They have far surpassed it.  We are at such a growth rate right now that we have another hospital wanting to come on board for next year, and there are two or three others talking to us about joining.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11458             I don't know if there would be any other hospitals left in midwestern Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11459             The great community citizenship that CKNX provides us has enabled us to do a great deal for our communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11460             Just to wrap up my short, little speech, when we are out talking to people when fundraising, we have a saying, which is on the back of this T‑shirt, which is:  "If we all give a little, we all gain a lot."  I think, if the CRTC sees its way to granting the Blackburn Radio Group and CKNX the station in Owen Sound, that they will all gain a lot.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11461             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11462             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11463             I think I speak for my colleagues when I say that we are always thrilled to hear of the great community service our licensees provide, and certainly CKNX is no exception.  So thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11464             Commissioner Menzies, do you have any questions?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11465             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  I would like to support what was just said.  I would like to congratulate you and everybody around you on your work as citizens, and I am delighted to hear of the good corporate citizenship of Blackburn in that regard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11466             They have quite a bit of history in this part of the world.  Does it just extend back the six years that this has been running?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11467             MR. McLELLAND:  The radio‑thon, per se, is six years.  I know they have done lots of health care services in the communities, but the radio‑thon is a six‑year event.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11468             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  What inspired you to come forward?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11469             MR. McLELLAND:  Working in a hospital and seeing the needs ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11470             As I said, we have replaced equipment that is 30 years old, and seeing budgets, and seeing what is not included in budgets, and seeing what the government is not supplying, we would not have equipment replaced.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11471             This year, for instance, in Kincardine, we replaced a 1991 portable x‑ray machine that was like a tank to push around the hospital.  To see the new technology and to see the facility that it brought to the x‑ray and diagnostic department to get down the halls and to get to patients in Emergency and ICU just does the heart good.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11472             I know all of the people on the Foundation, and we have become quite bonded thanks to CKNX.  The 14 foundations are united.  We have made lots of friendships.  We share ideas ‑‑ fundraising ideas ‑‑ and this is all because it started with CKNX.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11473             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  They sponsor the radio‑thon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11474             MR. McLELLAND:  Yes, they do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11475             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Where do some of your biggest donations come from?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11476             MR. McLELLAND:  It's a real mixed bag, because it depends on the foundation, but I know that we raise money through golf tournaments, we raise money through a cruise night, fifty‑fifty donations, and individual donors.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11477             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  So that I understand, this is just people phoning in and pledging money and ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11478             MR. McLELLAND:  Yes.  We do posters ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11479             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Mom and Pop and ‑‑


LISTNUM 1 \l 11480             MR. McLELLAND:  Yes, and there are events.  Ten of the 14 foundations, I believe, have events on the radio‑thon day, and CKNX sends out a reporter on the spot, and they send feedback in to the radio stations, both AM and FM.  It's on the air, and it raises the community level, and the spirit is just great.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11481             There are all kinds of challenges from various service groups, challenging each other to support their hospital.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11482             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Well, thank you for that and, again, congratulations on the work you do for your community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11483             MR. McLELLAND:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11484             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner del Val.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11485             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11486             I can see why you would want to support Blackburn who has given you so much support and the better they do, the stronger the support that they can give you.  Now, there is no indication that if things remain the status quo and they have the Wingham station that their support for you would lessen is there?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11487             MR. McLELLAND:  No, not at all.  I just see it growing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11488             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Great.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11489             Now, if there were more radio stations licensed in the area would it not give your organization more doors to knock on?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11490             MR. McLELLAND:  I don't think so because this is really ‑‑ it's really a CKNX 920 entity.  They started it and everybody relates to that as far as I know through mid‑western Ontario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11491             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Perhaps they could shame the other stations into doing the same.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11492             MR. McLELLAND:  Well, that's right.  I'm sure they would support it as well.  I mean it's a great cause.  Your hospital is a great cause.  But they are the starters and they are with us every step of the way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11493             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11494             MR. McLELLAND:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11495             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, thank you very much for your participation here today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11496             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11497             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11498             I would now call Bayshore Broadcasting Corporation to come to the presentation table.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 11499             THE SECRETARY:  Please introduce yourself before your presentation, and you will have 15 minutes for your presentation.

INTERVENTION

LISTNUM 1 \l 11500             MR. KENTNER:  Thank you, Madam Chair and Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11501             My name is Ross Kentner.  I am the General Manager of Bayshore Broadcasting and with me today are key members of Bayshore's senior management team, Deb Shaw, Rob Brignell and Kevin Brown.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11502             And because so much of the questioning today has dealt with the very problematic issues of programming, I took the liberty of inviting our three senior program staff members to the table as well, J.D. Moffatt, who is Operations Manager for the Owen Sound cluster and Rick Ringer and Don Vail.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11503             Bayshore is the licensee of six radio stations in central Ontario, three in Owen Sound and stations in Port Elgin, Wasaga Beach and Goderich.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11504             Bayshore and its predecessors have been active in the Owen Sound market for over 67 years, beginning with CFOS‑AM in 1940.  Its radio stations have become synonymous with the Owen Sound community and Grey and Bruce counties in general.  Its management and staff have a long history of community involvement and the Bayshore radio stations are consistently at the forefront in local fundraising activities and cultural events.  In fact, just this month CFOS held its 68th annual Christmas Fund broadcast of local talent from the Roxy Theatre, raising in excess of $21,000 for 24 local charities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11505             This is only one example of how Bayshore knows its community and the community knows us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11506             Today we are here to oppose the applications of 2079966 Ontario Limited, Evanov Communications and Blackburn Radio for a new FM radio station in Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11507             2079966 Ontario Limited has not provided any real evidence proving a real need for its service and two of the principals involved with this company have failed in previous attempts to provide service to Bruce and Huron counties on Ontario's west coast.  For clarity's sake we will refer to this applicant as the "Company".


LISTNUM 1 \l 11508             Evanov's proposal is going to compete directly for audience and advertising with both CFOS‑AM and CIXK‑FM, Bayshore's Adult Contemporary radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11509             The application by Blackburn does not promote diversity.  They are in the market already with three signals.  Moreover, the proposed stations will significantly duplicate large portions of music programming already heard on CFOS‑AM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11510             Looking first at the Company, two of the principal partners of this application are also owners of a radio station in nearby Kincardine, Ontario.  In 2005 Brian Cooper and Daniel McCarthy were awarded a licence to serve the Kincardine market with repeaters in Goderich and Port Elgin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11511             In March 2006 CIYN‑FM, The Coast, went on air in Kincardine with the Haliburton Broadcasting Group handling operations for that station.  However, almost three years after the original licence was granted neither the Goderich nor the Port Elgin repeater has been activated.  The Company now suggests that technical issues prevented them from activating these transmitters within the two‑year window provided by the Commission.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11512             Moreover, Bayshore notes that the Company has been developing this present application since at least June of 2006 and places a three microvolt per metre contour almost directly over the Port Elgin and Saugeen Shores area, the very area Cooper/McCarthy proposed to serve with their original Kincardine repeater.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11513             So this has led Bayshore to hypothesize that perhaps Cooper/McCarthy had no intention of activating a Port Elgin repeater and would rather have a more powerful and more lucrative Owen Sound‑based radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11514             On the other hand, as we heard the applicants state today, the Company has already granted themselves new licences for repeaters in Goderich and Port Elgin even before the applications have been submitted to the Commission.  We believe that based on Cooper/McCarthy's past performance it is reasonable to predict that the Company's motivation and promise of performance in this application is also suspect.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11515             Members of the Commission, we would like to clarify one of the points misinterpreted by the Company in our letter of intervention.  At no time has Bayshore claimed that there is no demand for a rock‑based radio station in Owen Sound.  In fact, we recognize that based on the out‑of‑market tuning to CIBU Wingham and CFJB Barrie there is indeed an interest in that music format.  What we did say in our intervention is that the Company provided no evidence of a demand for their particular service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11516             The Company points to BBM ratings for the Owen Sound market as the inevitable proof their service will succeed.  And their logic is very simple.  If the existing classic rock station from Wingham already has a strong presence in Owen Sound then the Company's service should, by default, receive the same audience share.  But that logic doesn't necessarily follow at all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11517             All of this notwithstanding, the Company has failed to answer one of the primary tenets of the CRTC's call for applications, namely that applicants will be required to provide evidence giving clear indication that there is a demand and a market for the station and the proposed service.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11518             Since the Evanov application ‑‑ or should the Evanov application be approved, the new station will undoubtedly draw significant numbers of listeners and advertisers away from Bayshore's local stations.  This will especially affect the ability of Bayshore's Adult Contemporary station, CIXK, to attract national advertising.  Evanov can bundle Owen Sound with its similarly branded Toronto and Ottawa radio stations when selling to national advertisers.  CFOS is already struggling in Owen Sound with a PBIT well below the Ontario and national average for AM radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11519             While an established retail base of advertisers does find CFOS continues to work well for them, it has been necessary for us to turn to any and all non‑traditional advertisers to keep sales from slipping further.  The addition of Evanov in the market will affect the ability of CFOS to continue to attract local advertisers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11520             Evanov is proposing to target a 45 to 64 core demographic, in direct competition with large portions of both the CFOS and CIXK audience.  Evanov's own research clearly shows the impact that service would have on Bayshore.  To quote Strategic Inc. from the Evanov application:

"Just under one‑third of the core audience currently listens to services from outside the market.  The remainder of the audience is spread across the local services with the Adult Contemporary station most frequently reported."


LISTNUM 1 \l 11521             MR. KENTNER:  Since Strategic Inc. determined that Bayshore is the only service inside the market, the Evanov application clearly states that a full two‑thirds of Evanov's audience is going to come primarily from CFOS and CIXK.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11522             The Evanov application, should it be approved, would draw significant audience away from CFOS and CIXK by duplicating the target audience and music format.  It would cause further local and national advertising fragmentation within the Owen Sound market.  The proposed Evanov station will have a negative impact on Bayshore's Owen Sound services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11523             As we detailed in our letter of intervention opposing the Blackburn application, approval would have a negative impact on Bayshore's stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11524             In its application Blackburn provided a list of 58 musical selections intended to reflect the station's sound.  Analysis by Bayshore's senior programming staff revealed that of the 58 selections provided, 33 are in active rotation on CFOS‑AM.  This equates to a 57 percent duplication rate.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11525             Blackburn challenged our analysis and therefore we have attached the full list, as provided in the application, along with the two most recent dates and times each selection was played on CFOS.  And J.D. Moffat, our Operations Manager for Owen Sound, was responsible for compiling the data in this list and can answer any questions you may have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11526             Clearly, the Blackburn application is targeting the CFOS audience with a very similar style of music programming.  Moreover, the Blackburn application states that the majority of its listeners will be drawn from its own classic and modern rock station, CIBU‑FM Wingham.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11527             Bayshore believes that audiences currently listening to Blackburn's hard rock station for artists like Van Halen, Led Zeppelin, AC/DC and Velvet Revolver would not be interested in hearing middle of the road and soft rock artists proposed in their application; artists such as Chicago, Cher, Carole King and Edward Bear.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11528             Given this obvious apples to oranges appeal of AC/DC to Carole King, and also considering the 57 percent play list duplication with CFOS, Bayshore believes the majority of Blackburn's composed listening audience is not coming from CIBU‑FM as they contend but from CFOS‑AM Owen Sound.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11529             The proposed Blackburn station will have a negative impact on Bayshore's CFOS‑AM.  Approval would offer no diversity of ownership, no diversity of news and especially no diversity of programming voices in Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11530             For example, according to the most recent BBM survey, Blackburn combines with Bayshore to garner nearly three‑quarters of total audience reach in Grey and Bruce counties.  If the Commission is seeking true diversity of voices in Owen Sound, Blackburn is not a realistic option.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11531             In summary, Bayshore believes that the applications submitted by Blackburn, Evanov and the Company will have an overwhelmingly negative impact on Bayshore's Heritage AM station CFOS and its Adult Contemporary CIXK‑FM.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11532             2079966 Ontario Limited has not provided any real evidence proving a need for their service in Owen Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11533             Evanov's proposal is going to compete directly for audience and advertising with both CFOS‑AM and CIXK‑FM, Bayshore's Adult Contemporary station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11534             The application by Blackburn does not promote diversity and will significantly duplicate large portions of music programming already heard on CFOS‑AM.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11535             Members of the Commission, Bayshore respectfully submits that the Commission deny the applications by 2079966 Ontario Limited, Evanov Communications and Blackburn Radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11536             Thank you.  And we would be pleased to answer any questions you have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11537             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Kentner, and to your colleagues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11538             Commissioner del Val.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11539             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11540             Thank you, Mr. Kentner and panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11541             So just some background information, the three stations, the three Heritage stations that you currently are licensed for in Owen Sound what years were they launched?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11542             MR. KENTNER:  CFOS, the Heritage AM, was launched March 1st, 1940, CIXK Mix 106 was launched in January of 1989 and Country 93 CKYC was launched in September of 2004.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11543             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11544             So you have been incumbent there ‑‑ the sole incumbent in that station for a long time.  So it's really ‑‑ it's reality to say that licensing anyone is going to have some negative impact on your stations, isn't it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11545             MR. KENTNER:  That's true, but we have not intervened against everyone.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11546             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  Then that's a good segue into my next question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11547             So can I draw the conclusion, which Larche has summarized very nicely for me, is the reason why you are not intervening against Larche that; one, you think Larche is the most compatible and; two, you think the market can absorb Larche?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11548             MR. KENTNER:  Yes, and I think I would like to defer to some of my colleagues to speak to your question, Madam Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11549             MS SHAW:  We feel that the market can sustain one more commercial radio station.  And I will defer to our sales manager, Kevin Brown, to give more detail.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11550             MR. BROWN:  Well, I think we all have the same numbers of how the markets are analyzed.  And you know, everybody uses the FP survey of markets and if you do the calculations you can see there is approximately another million dollars sitting there.  I think that's an accepted practice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11551             So we accept that as a company.  We do not feel ‑‑ I know this question is coming down the road ‑‑ that there is room for two, but we certainly believe there is room for one and we feel that the Larche application is one that would do the least damage to our operation.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11552             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  And that's because you would probably feel that Larche would be taking its audience from, say, Blackburn's existing station; is that why partly?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11553             MR. BROWN:  Yes, we don't currently program to the rock audience.  We are more female skewed with all of our properties.  Country has a male skew to it but, certainly, CIXK has a female skew and a rock property would take it from the out‑of‑market rock audience that's already tuning to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11554             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  So turning to your interventions and, Mr. Kentner, you have been quite loyal to the letters that you have written.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11555             I will ask this question first.  In your intervention against Blackburn in paragraphs 9 to 13 you talk about no diversity of news voices.  And I'm sorry, but I am not ‑‑ I am not following that very well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11556             So I am wondering if you could just explain your position again?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11557             MR. KENTNER:  Well, I think it is that Blackburn already has quite a substantive share of the Owen Sound market and therefore its news voice is very audible, and those who listen to The Bull or who listen to The One are very, very familiar with their news voice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11558             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  Here you say that:

"While the Blackburn application provides four fulltime staff in the news department, Bayshore's experience with news and information suggests that many of the key news items occurring on a daily basis are regional in nature, items of value to all residents in Grey and Bruce counties."

LISTNUM 1 \l 11559             MR. KENTNER:  That's correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11560             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11561             And then in paragraph 12 you say:

"It is further likely that Blackburn's network of correspondents will feed one news item to all Blackburn's stations in the area, whether in Wingham or in Owen Sound, duplicating both story and content."


LISTNUM 1 \l 11562             MR. KENTNER:  Yes, and in their application they outline plans for that.  If it were a Bruce Power story, for example, it would go to all the stations.  If it were a major story like, for example, the shortage of isotopes at the Owen Sound General and Marine Hospital or the hospital there, definitely that would go back to the Wingham stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11563             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11564             Now, Bayshore you have about ‑‑ you have six stations in the area including the three in Owen Sound and then Wasaga Beach, Port Elgin and Goderich.  Now, is it ‑‑ do you share news sources?  Does Bayshore share news sources like that and resources like that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11565             MR. KENTNER:  We have actually created within Bayshore a brand that we call the "Bayshore Broadcasting News Centre" and it is really the core CFOS newsroom and that supports the news product on CIXK and on CKYC.  However, we have separate news directors and news staffs in the other three localities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11566             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  And you are saying that Blackburn doesn't have that?  Is that what you are ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11567             MR. KENTNER:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11568             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11569             Now, I'm turning to Blackburn's reply to your interventions and, in particular paragraphs six through to nine, where they are not agreeing with your characterization of how they are ‑‑ what their contour is going to cover.  And so I am wondering whether you have had a chance to look at their response in those four paragraphs and whether you have any response to their reply?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11570             MR. KENTNER:  I think it is that since 1989 we have been located on the CBC tower at Kemble which is about 10 kilometres north of Owen Sound where three of the applicants propose to establish.  And our experience there right below the CBC antenna is that we cannot satisfactorily serve South Hampton, Port Elgin, Paisley, Chesley, Markdale, Flesherton, and those are communities that are really part ‑‑ satellite communities to Owen Sound in a sense.  Larger important Grey Bruce centres such as Kincardine, Walkerton and Hanover are totally unreachable from this location.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11571             These applicants have all talked about such a rich and vibrant market and they usually include all of Grey and Bruce when they talk about that, but you can't reach all of Grey and Bruce.  Even with three signals from three different transmitter sites in and around Owen Sound we do not cover all of Grey and Bruce counties, which is about 157,000 people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11572             So each of these standalone stations is not going to cover ‑‑ I believe in fact Blackburn said maybe 100,000, and that's optimistic in my view.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11573             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  And I guess in a nutshell their response does not allay your concerns and your ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11574             MR. KENTNER:  Our experience with Blackburn is that the ink is hardly dry on the licence before there is an application for a power increase followed by an application for a repeater.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11575             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.  What about their point that they said:

"Attached as Appendix A is a version of the same contour map provided by Bayshore showing the AM 15mV/m perimeter contour and the 3mV/m contour.  It is quite clear that there is no intersection between any of their existing Blackburn stations and the new Owen Sound station."

LISTNUM 1 \l 11576             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Do you have any response to that?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11577             MR. KENTNER:  It is absolutely true they don't intersect.  I would say that the driving time between the contours is about five minutes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11578             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11579             MR. KENTNER:  As an operator in the market I find that they are going to have four stations in a market in which I have three.  And I think it is going to be very difficult.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11580             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Now, did you have a chance to look at the other responses, because their responses were as ‑‑ they put as much work into their responses as you did to your intervention.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11581             And so I'm wondering whether you have anything to add to reinforce your concerns or in reply to theirs?  Are there any ‑‑ are there any issues that we can takeoff the table?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11582             MR. KENTNER:  I'm not sure ‑‑ I'm having a hard time getting past the opportunity to pass comment on the fact that ‑‑ I certainly think that the Evanov people are extremely interested in the Collingwood and Wasaga Beach markets.  Their intervenor has spent most of this time talking about what's going on in that part of the world and we fully anticipate that if Evanov is licensed they will be back with further plans to strengthen their service to that part of the country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11583             You were asking me, you know, to give you some comfort in licensing another player?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11584             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Not really, but if you want to say something along that line.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11585             MR. KENTNER:  It is not easy.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11586             MR. KENTNER:  I didn't understand your question and I apologize.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11587             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  No, no, I was just wondering whether the responses that each applicant provided to your intervention, I am wondering whether any of those responses elate any of your concerns and, therefore, took some of the issues that are on the table?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11588             MR. KENTNER:  No, that is why, for example, we have supplied more information on the duplication of music between CFOS and The Bull.  And I just say, having heard the Evanov presentation, which I have an ear for this kind of music personally, but they are targeting exactly our demographic, exactly our music, exactly our universe and exactly our advertisers.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11589             And one of the issues that we have is trying to keep Heritage AM that has not three hours, not 12 hours, but 30 hours of news in a week, to keep that alive and healthy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11590             COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank you, those are my questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11591             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Menzies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11592             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you. I think just to follow‑up on that last point, what is the biggest challenge in keeping the AM news component you just talked about healthy?  Because there has been quite a bit of talk here and there today about the news component of radio stations and that sort of stuff and the key to drawing listeners.  And if it is drawing listeners, it should be able to draw advertisers.  So what is the big challenge there?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11593             MR. KENTNER:  Well, the big challenge is if you are the incumbent at Owen Sound you are expected to be at every meeting of Owen Sound City Council and a dozen other municipal councils that meet bi‑weekly.  You are expected to cover the trials, you are expected to cover the two county councils and the two boards of education and a myriad of other things and you are also expected to be there on weekends.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11594             And I guess the concern is that most of these applicants are able to bring a new service to market and rely on Bayshore to be the news provider, but that does nothing to relieve our costs in a more competitive scenario.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11595             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  There has also been some talk about how competition grows the market in terms of that.  And I understand that you are not taking issue entirely with that point, but I would like to hear your thoughts on that a little bit more in terms of wouldn't a little bit of competition, and you have agreed that there could be one, but wouldn't more competition help you grow your market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11596             MR. KENTNER:  I honestly believe that radio grows as a result of more players, I would not argue that point with you.  One of the things everybody loves to say at these hearings is, don't worry, we will take it from the newspaper.  You should see our newspaper, there is nothing left of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11597             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  I have seen it.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11598             MR. KENTNER:  It is pathetic.  We have more journalists than, I want to say by a factor of three or four, than the Sun Times, they were our parent.  I remember when they had 12 news people and we had one, I was it.  And now we have 12 and they have about three.  So it is devastating.  And these new players are not going to find that there is much print money available in this market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11599             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11600             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner del Val.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11601             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I am sorry, I missed the very last line on my page.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11602             In your presentation you were talking about Evanov bundling, being able to bundle.  But you have five other stations, you can bundle too.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11603             MR. KENTNER:  Yes, but I would say that is something that may work to some degree.  Where we are operating these new services, Wasaga Beach, Port Elgin and Goderich, these are very small markets.  It is the first service that we are offering and we have definitely found some synergies, including some capacity to sell in combination.  But what I am speaking of is the capacity of Evanov to really clean house on national advertising.  And there is another fallacy out there too, by the way, and it is this idea that national advertisers will simply, you know, buy you too.  But what happens is that they switch buys, they don't enlarge buys.  National advertisers only buy winners and it is shorter and shorter lists.  Really, Kevin is the person who could speak to that.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11604             So those two points, Evanov is in a position, I think, to corner the market on national advertising by actually including Owen Sound with much bigger buys for Ottawa and Toronto.  And any of these players will, especially Blackburn, if they end up with four services against our three and a larger market share than they already have, I think some of our stations, and definitely CFOS, will never see another dollar of national.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11605             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  I guess my comment is, you know, being incumbent in this area for ‑‑ I appreciate your concerns and, of course, I can appreciate your concern that your market share or audience share will drop, but I just don't see so readily that you would not come out the winner in the competition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11606             MR. KENTNER:  We always pay to win.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11607             COMMISSIONER del VAL:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11608             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, thank you, Mr. Kentner and to your colleagues, thank you very much for your participation here today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11609             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11610             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  This completes the list of appearing interveners and Phase 3.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11611             We will now proceed to Phase 4 in which applicants can reply to all interventions submitted on their application.  Applicants appear in reverse order.  We would then invite Evanov Communications Inc. to respond, if they wish, to all the interventions that were filed to their application.  You may proceed to the presentation table.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11612             For the record, please reintroduce yourself, and you will have 10 minutes.  Thank you.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 11613             MR. EVANOV:  My name is Bill Evanov, President of Evanov Communications Inc.  To my right is Carmela Laurignano, Vice‑President of the Radio Group, and from Strategic Inc., to her right, Debra McLaughlin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11614             And I am going to ask Carmela to start the presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11615             MS LAURIGNANO:  Thank you.  Good afternoon again, Madam Commissioner, commissioners, Commission staff.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11616             With me today is Debra and Bill, as he mentioned.  We are here to reply to the intervention by Bayshore Broadcasting Corporation against our application for an FM service in Owen Sound and I will address each of the issues that have been raised.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11617             The first one was the ECI will duplicate the format and audiences of Bayshore.  We addressed this to some extent in our presentation in chief and again in questions, but I think the findings bear repeating.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11618             Our original investigation showed that 80 per cent of our library is not available in this market.  We subsequently commissioned a second independent study by Strategic that showed in the drive times, mornings and evenings, that there is only 6 per cent duplication, and that is only with CFOS.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11619             We followed that up with a secondary review six months later and found the same levels.  Although we have not tested the duplication of other applicants, given the less than definitive nature of formats generally, it is reasonable to conclude after examining all the proposals that The Jewel offers the least possible likelihood of duplication with stations currently serving the market.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11620             Their second point raised was that ECI is applying a large market concept for Owen Sound.  As you heard us outlining earlier today, we do not approach markets with a format in mind. Broadcasting is a business in line with good business practices, you must know the market before you introduce a product, so we did our homework.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11621             We found the following.  The market is older.  Over half of all the communities we will serve are 45 years of age or older.  The median age reported by StatsCan for each of these communities is over that of Canada and, in a market like Wiarton, is almost 10 years older.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11622             We looked at BBM tuning numbers in the market and found that tuning was down in the age group we wanted to serve.  And this same data showed a lack of service by originating and spill stations to the demos served, easy listening services.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11623             We spoke to consumers in the market and gauged their interest outside of format research and we tested the concept with advertisers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11624             Finally, we tested the interest with consumers using standard methodologies.  All of these measures indicate that an easy listening format is suitable for the market.  If there is interest by consumers, if it fits the demographic profile of the market, and if advertisers want it, how is this a big market concept?  It seems to us that a format that meets all of these criteria must be described as a marketable concept regardless of market size.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11625             The fact is that formats are not tied to geography, but to listeners.  And the only thing that should determine if our proposal is applicable to this market are the data demonstrating both an opportunity and an interest in the format and we think those data are pretty compelling.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11626             The third point was that ECI has not provided comfort that it will maintain its format.  Again, with all due respect to the intervener, as the Commission does not require it, who in these or in any other proceeding has committed?  Radio broadcasting is a changing landscape and one where ECI, like every other operator, must be free to adjust to market forces.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11627             We offer this, not because we will not answer the charge, but rather because it seems to be implied that we are not being upfront.  In fact, we are just asking to play on the same field as everyone else.  To provide comfort, however, we will offer our track record as evidence of our commitment to the formats we proposed.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11628             In Toronto where stations serving a younger end of demographic spectrum run far larger and by well‑funded company than ours, I might add, and have been in and out of programming to people under the age of 35, we have stayed fast.  Since 1994 we have provided music to the 12‑34 audience and have witnessed the exodus from the demo by companies such as Chorus and Rogers.  We are still there and at the top of the pack.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11629             In Ottawa and Newmarket where impaired signals keep us from reaching the full market we have stayed with The Jewel format despite recognizing opportunities to shift formats and target larger demographics.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11630             We believe that the 45 plus demo is the place to be and, just as we did all those many years ago with you, we believe the way to maximize the potential is to stick with it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11631             And then there was a statement that ECI will inevitably apply for a power increase of repeaters throughout the area.  We might add further that this list of possibilities, that it could include an application for a second licence.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11632             We are not being facetious, but factual.  We do not know what the future will bring and could speculate on all manners of activities, but we are sure of one thing, the process of public consultation and notice ensures that should we apply for this change of operating licence, Bayshore will have a chance at this time to explain why this is not in the best interest of incumbent broadcasters in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11633             And the CRTC will be able to review the arguments we present and ultimately decide if what we are requesting furthers the objectives of the Broadcasting Act and is good public policy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11634             Our request to provide diversity and meet the needs of an underserved consumer group today should not be denied on the basis of what we might do in the future.  That is what the public process is for.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11635             Finally, Bayshore has suggested that ECI has provided questionable research.  I do not purport to be a researcher, but I am confident in the reply supplied by Strategic Inc. on this matter.  Not only did Ms McLaughlin thoroughly address the points raised in our written reply, but two other industry experts reviewed the study and came independently to the same conclusion.  There is nothing in our research that either skews or misrepresents the market or the interest in our service.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11636             I should note that Dr. Anticol who was most conclusive in his letter, is not only a reputable researcher with one of Canada's largest firms, his is a lawyer and reviewed the work with a critical eye trained to identify bias from two distinct disciplines.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11637             I will ask Ms McLaughlin now to address two points that were raised by Mr. Kentner today, one relating to some research quoted and, the other, regarding the bundling issue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11638             MS McLAUGHLIN:  Yes.  On page 21 of the report Bayshore quoted from the Strategic Inc. report and, while it was a literal read, it wasn't an appropriate interpretation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11639             What that chart shows is of the core audience, which represents substantially less than the total audience proposed to our service, that a certain per cent, 60 per cent approximately, currently listen to another station in the market, all three of them being owned by Bayshore.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11640             It does not suggest that these listeners are going to stop listening to their station.  Neither does it indicate whether they are core listeners to the Bayshore station or peripheral listeners.  If they are peripheral listeners, then they are not contributing to their core audience and there is absolutely no way of determining that through this research.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11641             Further, we also asked, to make sure that we understood the potential for this service, if this group ‑‑ and we asked it of all applicants ‑‑ if this station was licensed would they end up tuning more?  And, in fact, 55 per cent overall of the audience that we will have as our core said they would tune more.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11642             Further, if we look at the most recent BBM data, we provided to the Commission on page 3 of our study an index of hours tuned in the market.  And if you look at the demographics, particularly at the older end, and you must remember that this isn't necessarily tuning to Bayshore stations, this is tuning generally in the market, the index continues to decline.  We reported that 55 plus was in the area of 94, it is now at 89 after the fall research or fall survey. The same for 65 plus, it dropped from 86 to 84.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11643             So we see a real opportunity for growth.  There is a declining audience base for stations in the area for all radio.  And our research provides evidence that not only did they like this format but they will tune more if it is available.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11644             Finally, on the issue of bundling, Ottawa and Toronto are top tier markets.  They aren't planned in the same manner that Owen Sound would.  And the way planning is done, it is ranked from top to bottom.  And there would be no similarities from the plan through to who would buy it most likely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11645             For several years I sold small market radio with target broadcast sales and I wish I could tell you that it was simply a point of saying I will leverage this station on because I have these other two major markets.  It doesn't happen.  In fact, it is the reverse.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11646             If you tried to make that sale, what they would say is let us cut the cost in very expensive Ottawa and very expensive Toronto by throwing that one in free and we will figure out the efficiencies.  So it is not a possibility.  In the end, everybody would lose.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11647             Carmela.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11648             MS LAURIGNANO:  So we did what any good broadcaster would do, we looked at the market from a data perspective and we examined it by being in it.  We used both scientific methods and common sense to arrive at the proposal we put before you.  And after hearing all the applications presented, we leave still confident that the format we have identified is not only the best option for the market today, but also the best for the future.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11649             News talk is the number one format in the country according to BBM.  The demand for local news is evidenced not only in our research ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11650             THE SECRETARY:  I am sorry, you have 30 seconds remaining to conclude.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11651             MS LAURIGNANO:  ‑‑ but in others as well.  Therefore, CFOS has a unique and enviable position in this market.  They should not short sell their ability to compete with a music service that, although having the highest commitment to spoken word, will in no way approximate the depth of coverage that they can give in residences and the communities they serve. They are entrenched and they are known and they will survive.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11652             Bayshore Broadcasting should rest assured that as an incumbent with three stations here, our entering into the market will be a very pleasant experience for them and for the listeners.  We will be good neighbours, we can compliment each other and we can coexist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11653             We thank you for the opportunity to make our comments today.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11654             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11655             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11656             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11657             For the record, Larche Communications Inc. have indicated that they would not appear in Phase 4.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11658             I would now invite Blackburn Radio Inc. to come forward to the presentation if they wish to participate in this phase.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11659             Please reintroduce yourself for the record and you will have 10 minutes for your presentation.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 11660             MR. COSTLEY WHITE:  Thank you.  Good afternoon, Madam Chair, members of the Commission and CRTC staff.  My name is Richard Costley White, Owner, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Blackburn Radio Inc.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11661             With me are my colleagues that you met in Phase 1; John Weese, Gina Lorentz, Ray Baynton, Andrew Campbell, Joan Moore, Mark Kassof, Nancy Burton, Rob Enders and Jason Ploegman.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11662             We are here to reply to the interventions to our application, both written and oral, supporting and opposing.  I would like to start by thanking the people who wrote letters of support for our application.  They include the representatives of 14 hospitals in our home market, the same people who came here today in black t‑shirts and addressed you earlier.  They are here because they appreciate the commitment that the CKNX team and Blackburn has made to the communities we serve.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11663             In their written intervention they stated and I quote:

"It would be safe to say that on a per capita basis CKNX is the largest supporter of local charities in its service area. CKNX Radio is an integral part of mid‑western Ontario communities." (As Read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 11664             Interveners from Owen Sound indicated that the market was ready for new radio. For example, the Billy Bishop and Marine Rail Museum noted and I quote:


"Will all deserved respect given to Bayshore Broadcasting and their many stations that currently serve Owen Sound, we believe a new voice, a competitive element, and Blackburn's intentions to invest in many local initiatives would greatly benefit our community." (As Read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 11665             Others noted our history of support for community events.  For example, the Port Elgin Pumpkinfest stated and again I quote:

"Their system of having a dedicated person to help non‑profit groups and festivals is one that makes them stand out from other media outlets and shows their ability to adapt a service to the area in which they operate." (As Read)

LISTNUM 1 \l 11666             We want to assure you that we will bring the same dedication to community service to Owen Sound if you grant us this licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11667             Let me now turn to the opposing intervener.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11668             Bayshore Broadcasting operates three radio stations in the Owen Sound market, two FM stations and a heritage full‑service AM station.  They also have an application before you at this hearing to convert the AM station to the FM band.  They are well‑positioned throughout the region with stations in nearby markets, Saugeen Shores, Goderich and Wasaga Beach.  Their stations reach into our market as ours can be received in their market and they are well positioned to take on new competition.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11669             Bayshore makes four arguments in its written brief.  Bayshore says that our proposed station will not add diversity in either ownership or editorial voice.  They state we already have a three‑station cluster in the market and they further state that we will duplicate the news on our existing stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11670             Two, Bayshore claims that our proposed station will not add diversity in musical format, since we will duplicate the sound of CFOS. Three, Bayshore alleges that we will inevitably return to the CRTC for a power increase or for re‑transmitters to provide better coverage.  And four, Bayshore that our research is questionable and contradictory.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11671             We provided a comprehensive reply to each of these allegations in our written reply and today we would like to add some additional remarks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11672             And I would now like to ask Ray Baynton to tell you some more about our approach to news on The Sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11673             MR. BAYNTON:  Good afternoon, Madam Chair and commissioners.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11674             In our application we mentioned that we would share some of our stories with our Wingham news room.  There are events that happen in Owen Sound that are of interest to the citizens of the many towns and villages within the Wingham coverage area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11675             For example, we covered the fact that the Grey Bruce Regional Health Centre's annual Christmas fundraiser is underway.  Now, that hospital is based in Owen Sound but it is a regional hospital.  That means its financial success is important to anyone who could use the services there and that includes people from Southern, Grey and Bruce counties as well as in some cases right into Northern Huron County.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11676             Now, similar stories from Huron County are of interest to the residents of Owen Sound.  For instance, the founder of an environmental group in the Bayfield area, and that is south of Goderich, says the province's plans to ban the use of non‑essential pesticides in Ontario towns is a good move.  Now, he also says that environmental groups will have to keep up the pressure to make it a reality.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11677             It is a story from Huron County but the use of non‑essential pesticides has been a hot municipal political story for sometime right across the region, including in the city of Owen Sound.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11678             It would be poor use of our news reporters to send reporters from both Wingham and Owen Sound to cover what is essentially the same story.  The journalist who covers the story would make it available to both markets.  The news director in each market would then decide if he or she would run it, what form it would take and whether it needs some sort of additional localization.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11679             Well, that is the same process that we basically use in our CKNX stations in Wingham that serve three stations.  Each station's editors decide which stories to use, what form they should get based on the demographic and the geography of their target listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11680             I might point out that Mr. Kempner suggested that as the incumbent it is Bayshore's duty to be the pre‑eminent news source in the Owen Sound market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11681             Now, with our proposed news staffing, our resources and our on‑air commitments, we would really love the chance to challenge that pre‑eminence in the Owen Sound market.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11682             Now, we have verified that the stories broadcast by our Wingham stations in a week in November found that only 5 percent of them made mention of the city of Owen Sound.  Now, we are proposing that 75 percent of the Sound's news stories will be local to the Owen Sound area.  That will result in significantly different newscasts than what they are hearing from our stations right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11683             To speak more about our diversity of format, here is Gina Lorentz.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11684             MS LORENTZ:  Thank you, Ray.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11685             Good afternoon, commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11686             Bayshore views both our application for a rock‑based classic hit station and Evanov's for a new easy listening as threats to its AM station CFOS.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11687             Bayshore claims there will be significant overlap to this full‑service station that plays music from the late 50s to the early 70s but Evanov and Blackburn propose radically different formats:  one, a rock‑ and hit‑based format, the other, an easy listening station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11688             This begs the question:  Exactly what is the format of CFOS?


LISTNUM 1 \l 11689             In our written reply we noted that CFOS is in fact a full‑service radio station that happens to play some oldies.  With comprehensive news coverage, a daily talk show, play‑by‑play coverage of Junior Hockey and a variety of spoken‑word shows on weekends, it is clear that it is neither an easy listening station nor a classic hit station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11690             Today, Bayshore Broadcasting placed on record a comparison list of songs which we have had no chance to see.  It is very easy to speculate that we would play some songs currently heard on CFOS.  What we do know is that these are two very different formats.  Classic hits is not CFOS.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11691             There was an admission that CFOS has 30 hours of news content each week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11692             Mark Kassof's research asked is there a music format currently available in this market and the largest number identified that classic hits was a void.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11693             Now, to sum up, here is John Weese.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11694             MR. WEESE:  Thank you, Gina.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11695             Hello again.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11696             Bayshore chose to question the research provided by Mr. Kassof.  Mr. Kassof is a very reputable researcher with many clients throughout Canada as well as the United States and he provided replies to each of the claims raised by Bayshore in their written intervention.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11697             Bayshore has also depicted Blackburn as operating in their market.  Frankly, their argument that we have a three‑station operation in their market is just inaccurate.  Our AM station AM 920 puts a very weak signal into Owen Sound's central market.  AM 920 is a full news, talk, sports station focused on the Wingham central market and we play a bit of country music.  CKNX‑AM drew a negligible 1.6 percent of hours tuned in Owen Sound central according to the most recent BBMs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11698             Our Hot AC station, CKNX‑FM, known as The ONE, also has a relatively weak signal into Owen Sound.  Its format is very similar to the Bayshore's Mix 106 and our station drew only 6.3 percent of hours tuned in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11699             Our rock station, CIBU, The Bull, has known some success in the Owen Sound market despite a relatively weak signal.  It provides a rock format that is not available locally.  Now in the most recent BBMs it drew 13.5 of all hours tuned.  It is interesting to note not only do we draw audience there but it also draws audience from other out‑of‑market stations as well.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11700             For the record, just on the BBMs, our reach was down all ages.  It was also down in reach and share for age 18+.  And in the category of 25‑54 the reach was down, however, our share was up negligibly.  We did retain that market share.  I think we are up by 2 points.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11701             When we launched The Bull, we discovered that there was a significant interest in the format across their central market and in Owen Sound.  We are good business people, so we didn't turn away business opportunity and given our success we capitalized on it but it is clear from our research that the big loser if we are licensed is our own Bull.  About 60 percent of the Sound's audience will come from the Bull.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11702             We do not have a three‑station cluster in Owen Sound.  We have three Wingham‑based stations that serve a large full‑service area and with the exception of a rock station we have no impact on Owen Sound, very little.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11703             We urge you to listen to the community service groups, business people and others who have told you of the benefit of Blackburn's brand of community‑oriented radio.  They deserve a strong new partner with a distinct editorial voice and diverse format as well as a proven track record of service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11704             We thank you for your attention and we would be pleased to answer any questions that you may have.  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11705             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Having no indication that there are any further questions, thank you very much for your reply.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11706             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11707             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11708             We would now invite 2079966 Ontario Limited to come forward to the presentation table if they wish to participate in this phase.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 11709             THE SECRETARY:  Please reintroduce yourself for the record and you will have 10 minutes for your presentation.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

LISTNUM 1 \l 11710             MR. COOPER:  Madam Chair and commissioners, I am Brian Cooper, President and CEO of 2079966 Ontario Limited, sometimes known as The Company.  To my left is my partner Daniel McCarthy and to my right is my partner Christopher Grossman.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

LISTNUM 1 \l 11711             MR. GROSSMAN:  I am still trying to get reeling or gathering my thoughts here.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11712             I want to give a brief history, a very brief history of how we got together, was that I recognized that these were two new entrants ‑‑ and I guess what is most offensive and mean‑spirited about this process is that we are trying to get or I feel it is important that we get new blood into the radio ownership in Canada and we have got Dan McCarthy, who is the Vice‑Chairman of CIBC worldwide, and Brian Cooper, who is one of the pre‑eminent sports marketing experts in Canada, if not in America, and for us to be defending some actions of Brian and Dan as it relates to them getting stations on the air at a specific time, I can sit here and tell you with a hundred percent certainty that they had agreements in place with Rogers and Rogers made it almost impossible for them to get those towers up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11713             That is when I came into the process and said we have to obviously work towards that but the reality of the situation is a single standalone station, even with repeaters in Port Elgin, where you at the same time had licensed an originating station, and in Goderich is impossible to be viable long term, so that we needed to get a second licence, which obviously, in this case, to create synergies, to make it a viable business entity, is to go into the Owen Sound market.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11714             I take personal offence at the fact that Bayshore would suggest in any way that these two gentlemen did anything other than the best they possibly could, with no experience in radio.  It is offensive and mean‑spirited.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11715             So what they are saying is that we offer no evidence that there is demand for a rock station but would suggest that Larche, who offered no demand in research or in any proprietary research, they accept the premise that the BBM numbers are accurate for him.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11716             And I also find it very offensive in this case that there is some sort of conspiracy that we are going to change the tower, that we are going to somehow come back here and re‑jig the deal that in June of '06 we had this secret meeting.  There was no secret meeting.  These guys need help.  They have got the resources, the expertise to build a radio company and we want to give them a hand.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11717             Finally, more than anything, for those of us that were at the Ottawa hearing for the Sudbury licence, there shouldn't be a backroom deal where they are picking who they want to be the competitor.  The reality is in that hearing where Bill and I did an application for Sudbury, had we known that Larche was selling his station in Kitchener ‑‑ and they talked about the synergies of the Kitchener station as it related to that market ‑‑ I think it would have changed the outcome of that for the rest in that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11718             There should be no backroom deal.  They shouldn't choose who they want to compete here.  Based on what they intervened against us, the same principle should apply.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11719             Obviously, if we get licensed in Owen Sound we are the biggest threat.  We have got the architect, the painter, the designer of that format in that market.  There is absolutely no question that the synergies, our expertise in Haliburton, that we will be successful in that market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11720             Don't ‑‑ please, I beg and implore you, don't make this a backroom deal.  Give these gentlemen an opportunity to build a business, to repatriate some of the ownership issues and you have my personal word we will be successful.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11721             Brian.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11722             MR. COOPER:  Thank you, Christopher.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11723             Commissioners, Madam Chair, as I said earlier, we need to build and grow.  We are excited about being in the radio industry.  We stumbled at the start.  We have a great partnership right here.  We believe we can serve the Owen Sound market with a great rock station.  Thank you.


LISTNUM 1 \l 11724             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Gentlemen, thank you very much.  Your passion is obvious.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11725             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11726             THE SECRETARY:  This completes the consideration of items 1 to 4 on the agenda.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11727             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11728             We will adjourn for the day and we will start tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m. and hear the applications for Windsor.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11729             Thank you and have a good evening.

‑‑‑ Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1715, to

    resume on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 at 0900 /

    L'audience est ajournée à 1715, pour reprendre

    le mardi 11 décembre 2007 à 0900

 

                      REPORTERS

 

 

____________________      ____________________

Beverley Dillabough       Monique Mahoney

 

 

____________________      ____________________

Sue Villeneuve            Jennifer Cheslock

   

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