TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

                      SUBJECT / SUJET:

Various broadcasting applications further to calls for

applications for licences to carry on radio programming

undertakings to serve Chilliwack and Vancouver, British Columbia /

Plusieurs demandes en radiodiffusion suite aux appels de demandes

de licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'une

entreprise de programmation de radio pour desservir Chilliwack et

Vancouver (Colombie-Britannique)

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

The Empire Landmark                   The Empire Landmark

1400 Robson Street                    1400, rue Robson

Vancouver, B.C.                       Vancouver (C.-B.)

February 25, 2008                     Le 25 février 2008

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

                 Transcript / Transcription

Various broadcasting applications further to calls for

applications for licences to carry on radio programming

undertakings to serve Chilliwack and Vancouver, British Columbia /

Plusieurs demandes en radiodiffusion suite aux appels de demandes

de licence de radiodiffusion visant l'exploitation d'une

entreprise de programmation de radio pour desservir Chilliwack et

Vancouver (Colombie-Britannique)

BEFORE / DEVANT:

Helen del Val                     Chairperson / Présidente

Rita Cugini                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Elizabeth Duncan                  Commissioner / Conseillère

Peter Menzies                     Commissioner / Conseiller

Ronald Williams                   Commissioner / Conseiller

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Jade Roy                          Secretary / Secretaire

Joe Aguiar                        Hearing Manager /

                                  Gérant de l'audience

Carolyn Pinsky                    Legal Counsel /

                                  Conseillère juridique

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

The Empire Landmark               The Empire Landmark

1400 Robson Street                1400, rue Robson

Vancouver, B.C.                   Vancouver (C.-B.)

February 25, 2008                 Le 25 février 2008

- iv -

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

                                                 PAGE / PARA

PHASE I

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

0785330 B.C. Ltd.                                   5 /   22

Touch Canada Broadcasting Inc.                     62 /  365

Newcap Inc.                                       102 /  573

Vista Radio Ltd.                                  168 /  871

Harvard Broadcasting Inc.                         225 / 1204

                                      Vancouver, B.C.

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Monday, February 25, 2008

    at 0930 / L'audience débute le lundi 25

    février 2008 à 0930

LISTNUM 1 \l 11                THE SECRETARY:  We will start the hearing.  Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to this public hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 13                My name is Helen del Val, and I am the CRTC Regional Commissioner for the B.C. and Yukon regions.  I will be presiding over this hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 14                Joining me on the panel are my colleagues, Rita Cugini, Regional Commissioner for Ontario; Elizabeth Duncan, Regional Commissioner for the Atlantic; Peter Menzies, Commissioner; and Ron Williams, Regional Commissioner for Alberta and the Northwest Territories.

LISTNUM 1 \l 15                The Commission team assisting us includes Hearing Manager, Joe Aguiar, who is also the Manager of English Radio Operations; Carolyn Pinsky, legal counsel; and Jade Roy, our Hearing Secretary.  Please speak with Ms Roy if you have any questions regarding the hearing procedures.

LISTNUM 1 \l 16                At this hearing, we will begin by considering 15 applications to operate a new English‑language FM commercial radio station in Vancouver.  At the same time, the panel will review applications to convert two radio stations serving Vancouver from the AM to the FM band.

LISTNUM 1 \l 17                The first application for conversion is by the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Limited Partnership and concerns CKBD Vancouver.  The second conversion application is by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, which is proposing to convert CBU Vancouver and to establish a new FM transmitter at Gabriola Island.  We will also hear an additional application by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation to amend the licence of radio station CBCV‑FM Victoria, to add an FM transmitter at Nanaimo.

LISTNUM 1 \l 18                The panel will then examine an application to operate a new English‑language FM commercial radio station in Port Moody.  In addition, we will hear four applications to operate a new English‑language FM commercial radio station to serve Chilliwack.

LISTNUM 1 \l 19                Those radio applications will be followed by applications to renew the licences of radio stations CKCR Revelstoke and CFRO‑FM Vancouver.  It appears that both these licencees may have failed to comply with certain regulations relating to the broadcast of Canadian content for category 2 music as required by the 1986 radio regulations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 110               Consequently, the Commission expects the licensees to show cause as to why a mandatory order should not be issued requiring them to comply with the regulations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 111               Finally, after all of the radio matters, we will examine an application by Rogers Broadcasting Limited to acquire from Multivan Broadcast Limited Partnership the assets of the ethnic television station CHNM‑TV Vancouver and the digital television station CHNM‑TV Vancouver, as well as their respective transmitters in Victoria.

LISTNUM 1 \l 112               I will now invite hearing secretary Jade Roy to explain the procedures we will be following.  Ms Roy, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 113               THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 114               Before beginning I would like to go over a few housekeeping matters to ensure the proper conduct of this hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 115               When you are in the hearing room we would ask that you please turn off your cell phones, beepers, and BlackBerries, as they are an unwelcome distraction and they cause interference on the internal communications systems used by our translators.  We would appreciate your cooperation in this regard throughout the hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 116               We expect the hearing to take approximately eight days, starting today until Wednesday of next week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 117               Starting tomorrow we will begin each morning at 8:30 a.m.  We will take an hour for lunch and a break in the morning and in the afternoon.  We will let you know of any schedule changes as they occur.

LISTNUM 1 \l 118               Pavilions 1 and 2 will serve as the examination room, where you can examine the public file of the applications being considered at this hearing.  As indicated in the agenda, the telephone number of the examination room is 778‑327‑4194.

LISTNUM 1 \l 119               There is a verbatim transcript of this hearing be being taken by the court reporter sitting at the table on my right. If you have any questions on how to obtain all or part of this transcript, please approach the court reporter during the break.  Please note that the full transcript will be made available on the Commission's website shortly after the conclusion of the hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 120               Now, Madam Chair, we will proceed with item 1 on the agenda, which is an application by 0785330 B.C. Limited for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial specialty radio programming undertaking in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 121               Please introduce yourself and your colleagues, and you will then have 20 minutes for your presentation.  Thank you.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 122               MR. BADH:  Thank you.  Good morning, Madam Chair, members of the Commission, Commission staff.  Welcome to Vancouver, home of the 2010 Winter Olympics.

LISTNUM 1 \l 123               Before we begin our presentation for a new FM licence to serve Vancouver, which we are calling The Planet 104.1, I would like to introduce our team.

LISTNUM 1 \l 124               My name is Sukhvinder Badh, although everyone calls me Suki.  I'm an economist, an educator, currently teaching economics at Simon Fraser University and Douglas College.  I am deeply involved in the community.  My most recent contributions include serving as Chair of the Richmond Hospital Foundation and the Advisory Committee on Environmental Issues to the City of Richmond.

LISTNUM 1 \l 125               On my left is my partner, Jim McLaughlin.  I have known Jim for many years and he has guided me in putting this application together.  Mr. McLaughlin has had significant experience in all aspects of radio and was head of Moffat Communications group of radio stations.  Jim chaired the CAB's radio board for four years, chaired the BBM radio board for an additional four, and was one of the original founders of FACTOR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 126               Beside Jim is David Oakes of Oakes Research.  David has over 30 years' experience researching Canadian, U.S. and international radio markets, and he undertook the research that led to our format choice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 127               Next to David is Liz Janik.  Liz is one of the pioneers of alternative radio.  From her beginnings as an announcer on CFNY‑FM in Toronto, she has worked as a programmer and consultant in alternative radio in both Canada and the United States for many years, most recently programming the 100 per cent Canadian channel on Sirius Satellite Radio.  She has served on the board of the Canadian Women in Communications.  She will be our Vice‑President Programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 128               Next to Liz is Jaspreet Gill.  Jaspreet speaks English, French, Italian, Spanish, Punjabi and Hindi.  She currently works as the marketing manager of The Source/La Source, B.C.'s only English‑French newspaper, dedicated to cultural diversity.  Jaspreet has served as our liaison with the local music community, and will be responsible to oversee our CCD implementation and produce The Planet's magazine, our daily magazine program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 129               To my right is Don Kay.  Don has a long history in the radio industry, starting as a junior announcer and working his way up in the programming stream.  Then he saw the light and realized that there was more money in sales and he re‑launched his career in sales, ending up in station management.  He has served on the boards of many industry associations and has advised us on our research to sales and marketing of the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 130               On the very right is our legal counsel, Robert Buchan of Fasken Martineau.

LISTNUM 1 \l 131               Madam Chair and Commissioners, we are a new broadcasting company so I would like to tell you a bit more about our genesis.  Jim will talk about the Vancouver market.  David will outline the research that led to our format choice.  Liz will tell you about the sound of The Planet.  Jaspreet will describe our spoken word initiatives and our CCD.  Finally, I will sum up ‑‑ and all in 20 minutes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 132               I am an academic involved in what they call the dismal science ‑‑ economics.  I have also had time to become involved in many community activities within Metro Vancouver.  These include the CKNW Orphans Fund, as well as a recent joint appointment from the Department of Canadian Heritage and Public Safety to the national Cross Cultural Round Table on Border Security.

LISTNUM 1 \l 133               In 2001, I purchased a 20 per cent interest in a U.S. AM station.  The station brokered time to various entrepreneurs who provided South Asian programming aimed at northern Washington and the Lower Mainland.  This allowed me to try my hand on air, where I co‑hosted a public affairs show with Minister de Jong, who was the Minister of Labour.  When the Commission called for applications for ethnic services in Vancouver, I threw my hat in the ring.  I learned a lot from that experience, probably from making every possible mistake in the book, as my friends insist on telling me all too frequently.

LISTNUM 1 \l 134               My friend, Jim, convinced me that English‑language radio was as much fun, if not more.  So we decided to pursue opportunities in English‑language media, and I sold my minority interest in KRPI.  We looked at buying a station in Vancouver, but were outbid by a larger company.  We were aware that a frequency might become available in Vancouver and started to work on our application.  And so, here we all are.  And now to talk about our Vancouver application, here is Jim McLaughlin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 135               MR. McLAUGHLIN:  Thank you, Suki, and good morning, Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 136               My experience in Vancouver radio started in 1978.  This is a great radio market and a booming economy.  In our application, we outlined a number of economic indicators that give us confidence that the market can sustain new radio choices.  I would like to highlight a few salient facts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 137               One, the population continues to grow about 1 per cent per year, largely fueled by immigration.

LISTNUM 1 \l 138               Two, the city's per capita income indexes fully 25 per cent higher than the Canadian average.  Overall income is expected to grow at that same 25 per cent from 2007 to 2012.

LISTNUM 1 \l 139               Retail sales are robust and expected to grow 36 per cent in that same period.

LISTNUM 1 \l 140               Radio local and national sales are growing at over 5 per cent per year.  Radio profit margins exceed the national averages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 141               Vancouver is a great place to do business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 142               We now have a large immigrant population that is moving into second, third and even fourth generations.  People like Suki have a foot in their own communities, but also are active in the larger community.  They cheer, and suffer, with the Canucks and the Lions, enjoy dim sum, pad thai, Indian candy, sushi, pasta, curry.  They bring a very cosmopolitan and eclectic taste to their radio choices, and they influence the rest of us who, because of them, have a wider menu of choices available to us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 143               This cosmopolitan community has two kinds of commercial radio choices:  Ethnic radio in third languages largely focus used on the specific needs of those groups, and English‑language radio that is not much different than what you would hear in Toronto, Halifax, Edmonton or Winnipeg.  We believe that it is time to bring a new, inclusive popular music‑based station that reflects today's Vancouver, including a focus on being green.

LISTNUM 1 \l 144               But to find the largest unmet need, we knew we needed research and we asked David Oakes to undertake detailed and comprehensive research in the Vancouver market.  David.

LISTNUM 1 \l 145               MR. OAKES:  Thank you, Chairman.  Good morning, Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 146               We undertook comprehensive phone out research of 600 Vancouverites aged 18 to 64.  This gives us a worst‑case reliability of plus or minus 4.1 per cent, 19 out of 20 times.

LISTNUM 1 \l 147               We looked at people's current listening habits, including which radio stations they listen to and their use of other media to get their favourite music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 148               We tested their interest in 29 different individual styles of music, as well as whether there was a station currently known for playing each style.  Then we asked respondents how likely they would be to listen to each of the seven formats.  Analyzing the music demands of the audiences for each of the seven formats showed the adult alternative format to be the clear missing choice in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 149               The adult alternative audience exhibited an usually strong demand for alternative rock, along with the specialty music styles, blues, folk, reggae and world beat.  In fact, Vancouver has the strongest demand for these specialty styles compared to any other Canadian city that I have researched.  And yet there is no station providing these sounds to any extent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 150               Now to describe the sound of the station, here is Liz Janik.

LISTNUM 1 \l 151               MS. JANIK:  Thank you, David, and good morning Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 152               The Planet's format is Vancouver's adult alternative.  It has been completely customized to suit Vancouverites.  The adult alternative format is sometimes referred to as Triple A, Americana or progressive FM, but regardless of the label used, there are four key common characteristics behind every successful adult alternative format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 153               First, they play a wide variety, very eclectic mix of music.  Their listeners are passionate and adventurous music fans and, although older, they are still interested in exploring new music, both from heritage artists and from emerging new artists.  They also want to hear more than one song from an album.

LISTNUM 1 \l 154               Two, the tone and presentation of the station is friendly, personable and intelligent.  These listeners are tired of hype and useless chitchat.  They want someone to talk to them as a real person one to one, and they have a higher need for news and information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 155               Three, this format appeals equally to both male and female music fans.  These listeners are typically more individualistic and they're not comfortable with the gender bias found on most formats.  The adult alternative format is the one format which makes both men and women feel welcome.  The common denominator is their passion for music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 156               Fourth, each alternative station must be fully customized to its market.  Every market has unique music histories and unique competitive issues which shape the sound of the station.  The Planet's format has been completely customized for Vancouver's music fans.  There is no other radio station which sounds like The Planet anywhere in North America.  So, to give you a sample, we've prepared a video, and on the bottom left you will find the artists' names.

‑‑‑ Video presentation / présentation vidéo

LISTNUM 1 \l 157               It is our belief that in order for The Planet to be successful, it must play a mix of mainstream music with specialty music styles.  Therefore, The Planet will commit to 40 per cent specialty music from the blues, jazz, folk and world beat categories.  In addition The Planet will play 40 per cent Canadian content.  Fully half, 20 per cent, will be from Canadian emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 158               Now to describe our news and information and our CCD is Jaspreet Gill.

LISTNUM 1 \l 159               MS GILL:  Thank you, Liz, and good morning, Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 160               The research told us that our audience wants local news and public affairs, with an emphasis on arts and culture, the environment, health and lifestyle, and our four‑person news department and our public affairs producer will deliver just that, over six hours of news per week, including ten newscasts per day during the week and seven per day on the weekends, and a daily one‑hour news magazine every day of the week, including Saturday and Sunday.  Our spoken word will total more than 22 hours per week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 161               Included in this total are daily features on the environment, current high tech information, artist profiles and culture and entertainment in Vancouver, as well as a full range of surveillance information.  All of these efforts will culminate in our daily magazine program, The Planet Magazine, where we will have the time to go behind the headlines.

LISTNUM 1 \l 162               Canadian content development is another area where we decided to put a lot of effort and investment:  A total of $4,375,000 over the term of the licence.  Suki, Jim, Liz and I made the rounds of educational institutions and the music community to see what they felt would be most helpful.  In addition to our annual contribution of $125,000 to FACTOR, we developed strong local initiatives.  I will be responsible to work year round with four main focuses.

LISTNUM 1 \l 163               The Planet independent music awards, $165,000 per year.  These will celebrate the best local artists in 12 categories of music, with cash awards, a local showcase event and a CD compilation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 164               Two, The Planet Music and Green Festival, $110,000 per year.  A weekend long event highlighting best practices in recycling, reusing and reducing, with opportunities to see how new green technologies can actually make a difference, along with concerts from independent local artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 165               Three, Music B.C., with an annual cash contribution of $100,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 166               Four, our educational initiatives, $125,000 per year.  We initially proposed providing scholarships to educational institutions.  Then we met with the schools and we asked for their input on how the funds could best be utilized.  Each school proposed ideas that would benefit hundreds of students and give them the chance to perform before thousands of listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 167               In our reply to deficiencies, we included letters from each of the five educational institutions, detailing how each will best utilize our annual contributions.  They proposed very creative and innovative approaches.

LISTNUM 1 \l 168               These cash initiatives will be supported by our on‑air program, Pick of the Week, which will turn the spotlight on a different independent Canadian artist each week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 169               Here to sum up is Suki.

LISTNUM 1 \l 170               MR. BADH:  Thanks, Jaspreet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 171               Commissioners, this is an incredibly diverse city, a Pacific Rim community that is a mosaic of East and South Asian cultures, European immigration, first nations peoples, and people from many other corners of the world.  It has a unique flavor where aboriginal art is celebrated in public buildings, private galleries and on the streets, with several Chinatowns, little Indias, and other ethnic communities, and Robson Street and Commercial Drive where they all come together.

LISTNUM 1 \l 172               The Planet will reflect this diversity, with women making up at least 50 per cent of our staff, including on‑air, with hiring policies encouraging visible minorities, aboriginal staff and persons with disabilities.  Our on‑air programming will include a strong presence of world music, aboriginal music, including, but not limited to our weekly show Planet PowWow and blues, reggae and folk.  Our CCD will aim at world beat and other diverse music communities, and our scholarship activities will promote all new talent, including special initiatives for visible minority and aboriginal students.

LISTNUM 1 \l 173               Madam Chair, we believe that our application more than meets your criteria for evaluation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 174               One, we will provide a strong new, locally based voice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 175               Two, we are well financed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 176               Three, we have a strong broadcast managerial expertise in Jim and Don.  Our programming will be crafted by Liz, a recognized leader in alternative formats.  And we will bring a bright and fresh approach to working on CCD with Jaspreet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 177               Four, experience tells us that our business plan is realistic with a format based on comprehensive, high quality research.

LISTNUM 1 \l 178               Five, we have the courage of our convictions with a commitment of 40 per cent category 3 music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 179               Six, our Canadian content at 40 per cent exceeds the Commission's requirements.

LISTNUM 1 \l 180               Seven, fully half of our Canadian music will be from emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 181               Eight, our CCD initiatives are creative, aimed at the local independent music community, not only substantial cash contributions, but a daily commitment to independent and emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 182               We have crafted The Planet specifically to meet the needs of this unique city.  I am excited to be part of this new project.  It will reflect the new Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 183               Thank you for your time and attention, Commissioners.  We are ready to answer any questions you may have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 184               THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Badh, and to your fellow panelists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 185               I have a few questions on your application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 186               Firstly, on your minimum level of local programming, from the application and also from the presentation this morning, can you clarify what is that minimum level out of the broadcast week of 126 hours, what would be your minimum commitment?

LISTNUM 1 \l 187               MR. McLAUGHLIN:  At present, Madam Chair, it's the full 126 hours.  One of our programs, the aboriginal program, Planet PowWow, it is being produced for us, but once it is produced, it may be sold elsewhere.  When that occurs, then it will no longer qualify if it is not produced specifically for us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 188               So, while our current position is 126 hours, that may drop to something around 120, if some of the other special programs lose their qualification if they get additional exposure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 189               THE CHAIRPERSON:  So, would you commit to about 120 hours?

LISTNUM 1 \l 190               MR. McLAUGHLIN:  I have no problem with that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 191               THE CHAIRPERSON:  What amount of your regulated broadcast week will be live‑to‑air programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 192               MR. McLAUGHLIN:  We are planning on 100 per cent 6:00 a.m. to midnight, and we hope to do better than that once we get established.

LISTNUM 1 \l 193               THE CHAIRPERSON:  So, you are not planning to have any voice tracked programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 194               MR. McLAUGHLIN:  That is not in our plans, no.

LISTNUM 1 \l 195               THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think you mentioned a bit earlier about maybe syndicated programming.  Are you planning to have any of that at this point?

LISTNUM 1 \l 196               MR. McLAUGHLIN:  I am going to ask Liz to get involved in that.  At the moment we don't have any syndication, but you never know when some might appear that fits our format very well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 197               Liz, would you like to add to that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 198               MS. JANIK:  Presently all of the programming that is being created is going to be created specifically for The Planet.  So there will be no syndication as far as I can see at this time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 199               THE CHAIRPERSON:  Following Mr. McLaughlin's line, if you were to look at syndicated programming, what would be the sources that would interest you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1100              MS. JANIK:  I am not aware of any syndicated programming that would be the perfect fit for the Vancouver audience.  I imagine if The Planet PowWow gets syndicated it would fall back into that category, but presently what we have planned is completely comprehensive to meeting our audience's needs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1101              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1102              On the spoken word, in your presentation today you mentioned 22 hours.  That is on page 10 of your presentation.  I believe that in your supplementary brief and the application, at that time it was 15.5 hours.  I know that you also have a handout on the break down of your spoken word.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1103              Maybe you can walk me through this.  Of the 22 hours, how many hours is newscasts?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1104              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  Jaspreet is just grabbing her copy of that.  I will start out with it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1105              There are 64 newscasts per week, ten per day, Monday to Friday, seven per day Saturday and Sunday.  That totals six hours and 24 minutes of newscasts, of which 75 per cent is news and 80 per cent of our news will be Lower Mainland and B.C. legislature.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1106              As you know, politics is a blood sport here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1107              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Seventy‑five per cent is what we would call pure news; right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1108              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1109              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And then 25 per cent would be other spoken word?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1110              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  Yes, surveillance, sports, weather, that sort of thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1111              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you won't have a break down right now of the 25 per cent of spoken word, other.  What would be the break down between, say, weather, and general surveillance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1112              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  Liz.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1113              MS. JANIK:  In addition to the usual surveillance material that we would hear from our announcers throughout the broadcast day, in our feature programming, because The Planet Blues, Planet PowWow and Earth Song, these hosts are especially knowledgeable about the topics that they are presenting, and we are estimating approximately eight minutes for each hour of that particular kind of programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1114              Also, we have a program on Sunday nights, the Music B.C. Evolution, which is two hours showcasing all of independent artists' releases from the Vancouver area and from British Columbia.  Again, there would be extensive dialogue and talk throughout that particular program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1115              Then, when we talk about special events and concerts, you will find that we will give ourselves more time to bring these issues into the full light for our listeners.  So, it is in these extended programs that we will have the additional talk quotient.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1116              THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see.  When you have the other spoken word and you list The Planet magazine, et cetera, that is supposed to be equivalent to 25 per cent of ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1117              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  I am sorry, you are asking about in the news package, what is news and what is other issues?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1118              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Exactly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1119              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  I am sorry, I misunderstood the question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1120              Weather is about a 15 to 20 second portion of that, and then there will be about a 60 to 90 second sports cast and perhaps some traffic, depending on time of day.  That is what will make up the rest of that package.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1121              My apologies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1122              THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, I probably wasn't clear enough in my question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1123              Of your 22 hours of spoken word, could you break it down into approximately what is structured and what is unstructured spoken word?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1124              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  Out of the 22 hours, five hours and 36 minutes, or approximately three minutes per hour in the regular flow programming would be unstructured.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1125              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Just to confirm, then, the 22 hours and four minutes includes all structured and unstructured spoken word?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1126              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  That is correct.  Commissioner, just before we leave that, so I don't mislead you, when we say that, we are talking about spoken word with value as against just disc jockey patter, et cetera.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1127              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So, the unstructured disc jockey banter is in addition to ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1128              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  Correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1129              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Moving on to Canadian content, I note that you have said you would commit to 40 per cent Canadian content.  I understand it to be overall.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1130              As you probably know, the requirement for category 2 music is 35 per cent weekly and for category 3 is 10 per cent.  Is your 40 per cent Canadian content for both of the category 2 and category 3 music combined?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1131              MS. JANIK:  Yes, 40 per cent of category 2 will be Canadian artists and 40 per cent of category 3 will come from Canadian artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1132              Vancouver has such an amazing supply of independent recording artists from every imaginable music genre, including some that we have yet to put a label to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1133              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So, you would commit to 40 per cent of all category 2 music will be Canadian, and 40 per cent of category 3?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1134              MS. JANIK:  That is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1135              THE CHAIRPERSON:  I know that you have asked that there not be any specific commitments to each sub‑category of category 3 music, even though you have identified the three sub‑categories that you would draw from would be jazz and blues, world beat and also folk.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1136              As you know, the jazz and blues, that sub‑category also has a requirement of a minimum being 20 per cent Canadian content.  Within the confines of what you have described, the 40 per cent of cat 2 will be Canadian, 40 per cent of cat 3 will be Canadian.  Would you also commit to that 20 per cent of the jazz and blues music that you will play will also be Canadian?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1137              MS. JANIK:  Yes, we would certainly commit to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1138              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you would be willing to accept those as conditions of licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1139              MR. BADH:  Yes, we would.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1140              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Moving on to your CCD contributions, in your August 7th deficiency response, you had increased your over and above annual contribution by $100,000, I believe, so that the overall would be $600,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1141              The numbers from your application to what you submitted today don't really correspond.  Can you explain that, please?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1142              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  Is my face red?  It is entirely my fault and let me explain how this came about.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1143              When we were going through and answering the questions from the Commission at the time we first submitted our licence, we realized we had made an error in our totals in what we wanted to do, so we added $100,000.  At the time we made that addition, I neglected to remember the 20 per cent commitment that must go to FACTOR.  I am a founder of FACTOR and it is my baby and I am the guy that forgot the number.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1144              In order to make the commitment to FACTOR match with the other work that we are doing, we have to add an additional $25,000 to be directed to FACTOR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1145              THE CHAIRPERSON:  I understand that.  Not a problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1146              The only thing is based on the calculation and what you had increased as your over and above contribution in your August 7th letter, the contribution to FACTOR would be $120,000, not $125,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1147              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  The problem is, if we go over $600,000 we have to give some of that overage to FACTOR as a percentage.  So, it works out to an additional $25,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1148              In other words, Commissioner, 20 per cent of $625,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1149              THE CHAIRPERSON:  I can't figure out where you got the extra $25,000, because you increase your original annual contribution from $500,000 by $100,000, which makes the total $600,000.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1150              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  Correct, but we did not alter the FACTOR number at that time.  It didn't occur to us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1151              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, but 20 per cent of $600,000 is $120,000, isn't it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1152              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  I am sorry.  I apologize for being slow today.  Yes, your math is correct.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1153              THE CHAIRPERSON:  The problem is we need to stick with the August 7th commitment because otherwise it is going to look like there is a further increase on hearing day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1154              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  We have no problem with that and we understand that position.  We have no problem with that, Commissioner.  The fact is we are likely going to spend that money, but we understand the position.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1155              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1156              Maybe this is where you can walk me through.  The additional 20 per cent, then, that you are contributing to FACTOR, is it coming out of any of your other identified initiatives?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1157              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  It won't in the sense that we will spend the money necessary, but in the sense that the total must be $600,000 for the Commission's purposes, that is the only place to get it, if you will.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1158              THE CHAIRPERSON:  How will this impact the other initiatives?  How will it change the numbers there, then?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1159              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  We can go in and just reduce by just a tiny bit here and there and we can certainly make it work.  It certainly won't eliminate or substantially change any of the other commitments.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1160              THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is not a big amount.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1161              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1162              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Could you please file an undertaking to show the revised allocation?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1163              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  Certainly.  No problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1164              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1165              On the training and support initiatives, you had identified several organizations that will be receiving the funding, and I acknowledge the letters that you have filed from Capilino College and certain institutions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1166              But I think the only confirmed partnership was with the Harris Institute for the Arts.  The others were, at that point, more letters of support.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1167              Have more of them evolved into confirmed partnerships?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1168              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  We have confirmed with each of those institutions that, should we be licensed, they will get that support from us, but until such time as we are fortunate enough to get a licence, we can't really do a memo of understanding and do all the details because we can't provide the funds.  It is kind of a chicken and egg thing, Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1169              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So, if all of those institutions that you have identified are on board, what would you estimate would be the number of scholarships and awards that you would disperse?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1170              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  We had started out planning to do scholarships.  But when we went to the institutions themselves, they said scholarships would be great and we would happily love to have scholarships, but we said to them, well, obviously you are hedging a little bit; what would you like?  Every single item that has come back has come from them rather than us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1171              If we go the scholarship route, we can involve a couple or three students at each individual college.  But if we go with what they need, we can involve literally hundreds of students and the public as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1172              So, the actual scholarships, it ends up that ‑‑ I will ask Liz to speak to it ‑‑ the Harris Institute is the only one where we are actually doing scholarships.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1173              MS. JANIK:  The Harris Institute is based in Toronto and is internationally recognized as one of the top schools for producing people ready for the music industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1174              They have two program streams.  One is for management of music artists, and the second one is for the production of music.  The program itself is exceptionally expensive.  So, there would be two scholarships each valued at $12,500 allocated for the Harris Institute.  Those scholarships would be directed towards local Vancouver and British Columbia residents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1175              THE CHAIRPERSON:  For those participating institutions, would you be able to file with us the letters indicating that they will disperse the funds in accordance with our commercial radio policy?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1176              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  Absolutely, that is not a problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1177              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Your projection of audience shares looks very, very optimistic, particularly with a format of triple A which isn't really proven in Canada yet.  I think your own forecast is that you will have an audience share of 5.5 per cent in year 3, growing to 8 per cent by year 7.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1178              Perhaps maybe just on the audience share, could you explain why your projection is so optimistic?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1179              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  Certainly, I am happy to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1180              I am going to turn this over to David Oakes who is far more expert than I, but I just wanted to outline to you, before I do that, that when it came to the research our brief to David was that we wanted research on the entire market and we wanted to find the unmet need in the market.  We didn't go in with any pre‑conceived ideas as to what direction we might go with the station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1181              We were extremely happy with the results when David came back to us.  David.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1182              MR. OAKES:  In doing the projections, I set them up so the initial projections were higher and I whittled them down for a number of reasons.  My original projection for audience share was 25 per cent.  The hours tuned share was a bit higher, and I took that down to 8 per cent based on any impacts we would have with other stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1183              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So, your answer is that you believe your research substantiates your conclusion that you could reach 8 per cent audience share by year 7?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1184              MR. OAKES:  Yes, and perhaps before that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1185              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Then on revenue growth, in Vancouver I think the compound annual growth since 2003 is 5.3 per cent.  Then in your own supplemental brief you assumed a growth rate in Vancouver market of 3 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1186              Yet, I think you have projected a growth rate between years 4 and 7 of 14.5 per cent in revenue.  That is five fold of what you have projected.  Could you explain that, please?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1187              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  Yes.  I am going to get Don Kay to add to this, but that is a combination of things.  As the station matures, we can increase our rates, as well as increase our sell through, in other words the number of units sold, while the market grows around us.  So, we have a rising tide that takes all ships up with it at the same time, plus we are gaining more audience and more strength in the marketplace and so we can increase our rates and sell more spots.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1188              So, it compounds the growth.  Having done this before, it is a rather euphoric effect, actually.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1189              THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you are confident that the compound effect will result in a growth that is at least three times what the market growth is?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1190              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  Right now the market is growing at over 5 per cent a year.  We use 3 per cent for all these calculations.  So, yes, when we are able to increase our rates as our audience grows and we are able to sell more commercial time, again as our audience grows, it does have that multiplying effect very quickly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1191              THE CHAIRPERSON:  On that basis, you believe that your projection of revenue growth of 14.5 per cent between years 4 and 7 is realistic?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1192              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  I think it is conservative.  I have done that in this market before.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1193              THE CHAIRPERSON:  What if your projections are not met?  How would you meet the resulting losses?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1194              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  I will ask my partner to answer that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1195              MR. BADH:  Commissioner, Mr. Oakes' research is very conservative.  He only counted the most likely, and our revenue growth is relatively modest compared to the market in the first few years.  We are a well‑financed organization, and we believe that Vancouver is the engine for the B.C. economy and B.C. is the engine for the Canadian economy, and I think it is a wonderful place to do business, and as an owner entrepreneur, I am willing to take that risk, Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1196              THE CHAIRPERSON:  How would you fund that risk?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1197              MR. BADH:  It is on the financial sheets that I have handed.  It is in there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1198              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you would be prepared to personally underwrite the ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1199              MR. BADH:  Definitely.  I have full confidence in my team, Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1200              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Would you resort to, say, program changes, program cuts to meet any losses?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1201              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  We don't believe that would be necessary.  This is a major market and we believe we have to provide a major market service at all times to be successful.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1202              THE CHAIRPERSON:  I have a couple of questions ‑‑ don't hold me to a couple ‑‑ some questions arising from your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1203              First, your target skews a bit older in the demographics.  Does your market research, Mr. Oakes, show that the older demographics in Vancouver are underserved?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1204              MR. OAKES:  In the sense of there are some things missing:  Alternative rock and the four specialty styles.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1205              I just want to point out, I have the feeling that with most broadcasters and commissioners, they look at specialty music and think we are pushed to put that on radio, but we don't really believe in it.  Quite frankly, I have never seen a higher demand for those styles.  I have seen these styles, the demand for them in other markets go up and I have seen it in Vancouver go up, but I have never seen it this big before.  Blues is the number five style out of the 29 styles I chose to run by the respondents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1206              THE CHAIRPERSON:  How would you explain that you see such a demand here in Vancouver?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1207              MR. OAKES:  Two reasons.  The baby boomers are getting older, loving the music that they have and wanting to get back to their roots.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1208              Classic rock is still a very big format.  I like classic rock, but I have heard a lot of those songs a lot of times.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1209              The blues has been growing gradually through the years.  The world beat is fairly new because of immigration driving it and it is really second generation, third generation, fourth generation producing music and it rubs off in the markets.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1210              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Badh or Mr. McLaughlin, in response to one of the interventions, in your reply you stated that you would accept a condition of licence not to broadcast in any South Asian language.  Is that still true?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1211              MR. BADH:  That is true.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1212              THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you would be prepared to accept such a condition of licence?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1213              MR. BADH:  Yes, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1214              THE CHAIRPERSON:  In your presentation today ‑‑ and it is a reality that Vancouver is one of the most culturally diverse cities in Canada ‑‑ are you going to be targeting the ethnic communities in your station in the programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1215              MR. BADH:  Commissioner, this is a mainstream English‑language station.  People like myself, Jaspreet and others in the audience, English is the common thread that weaves everyone together.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1216              This is not an ethnic station.  This is an English mainstream station.  We will be going after English mainstream audiences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1217              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1218              Do you plan on broadcasting any of the spoken word part in language other than English?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1219              MR. BADH:  No, but Planet PowWow is the only program that might, but even that is emphasized in English.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1220              THE CHAIRPERSON:  On one of the CCD initiatives that you mentioned on page 11 of your presentation today, which is The Planet Music and Green Festival, a weekend event highlighting best practices in recycling, reusing, reducing, et cetera, along with concerts from independent local artists, how are you going to ensure that the funding for an initiative like that is one that would meet the CCD criteria of production of music, spoken word rather than spending the funds on the go green initiative?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1221              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  I will start with an answer to that, but then I am going to ask Ms Janik to contribute.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1222              First of all, in all our projects that we outlined in our CCD, the station itself is responsible for the organizing and funding of each project.  None of that is included in the CCD.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1223              In that particular one, it allows us to accomplish two things at the same time.  It allows us to put on a green festival and the station is going to spend a lot of time in that area, but it gives us a platform for the artists, and that money is almost 100 per cent for the artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1224              Liz.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1225              MS. JANIK:  The funds that we have set aside for that are specifically to pay the artists for the performances and to provide the staging, lighting and technicians that they need to put on the show.  So, this would be a showcase opportunity for Canadian artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1226              The rest of the cost, the green side of the costs will come from the participants on that side of the project, and so that would come from sponsorships from the green community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1227              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1228              Unlike some of the other applicants, you have not identified or given any indication as to whether there is an alternate frequency that would be suitable for your station.  Do you have any comment on that or do you have an alternate frequency identified?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1229              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  We did not identify an alternate frequency.  However, if there is one out there that the Commission would like us to use that works, we would be happy to consider it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1230              Let me say that at the time this was the only frequency any of us were aware of.  It is over a year ago now that we actually first started dealing with this frequency.  So, other people have had some time to develop some other issues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1231              The other thing is that a couple of those frequencies that are kind of floating around out there at the moment don't really serve Vancouver particularly well; they may work for a specific area.  And then the CBC has identified that one particular frequency, 88, I am sorry, I don't remember, point ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1232              THE CHAIRPERSON:  88.1.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1233              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  .1, I apologize.  Although why they would want to walk away from one of the best AM signals I have ever seen for the troubles we all have with FM in this community, I have no idea.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1234              THE CHAIRPERSON:  How many licensees do you think Vancouver, this market, could sustain?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1235              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  As many as you have frequencies to give.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1236              THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you were to be licensed, which other applicant do you think will compliment you the best?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1237              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  Obviously someone like one of the religious applicants would be furthest away.  But let me be very clear.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1238              We are the only applicant proposing to play 40 per cent of our music from category 3.  That alone sets us a long ways apart from any other applicant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1239              We have no concerns about any of the other applicants that you might licence.  We would welcome whatever the Commission felt was the best route to go.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1240              THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think you have answered the next question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1241              I will ask my other colleagues if they have any questions.  I believe Commissioner Cugini has some.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1242              COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1243              Ms Janik, I can't have you in the room and not ask you questions because I did listen to you a lot on CFNY, and if that dates us, everybody else can do the math.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1244              MS. JANIK:  Let's hope they're as good at math as Mr. McLaughlin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1245              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  You're obviously very young.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1246              MS. JANIK:  Where does that leave me, Jim?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1247              COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I'm looking at your appendix 8‑c where you file your sample playlist.  You do obviously have quite a number of genres listed of music.  What I am wondering is what is the common thread that is going to tie adult rock, blues, 80s, alternative and so on, on this station?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1248              MS. JANIK:  If you listened to CFNY back in the day you probably were a listener that loved music.  It didn't matter what kind of music, if it was fresh, interesting and exciting to you, you probably enjoyed it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1249              Your personal library or your iPod, just like mine, is filled with all kinds of music.  So, the common denominator is people who love music and, even though regardless of age, they are still interested in exploring music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1250              So, among some of my colleagues, they have moved on to explore world beat, they love ambient music, they have jazz, they have blues, they still like some of the newer artists like Brett Dennen that came up during the video, which is reminiscent of Paul Simon's sound.  So the common denominator is a love of music and an environment where you can listen to the music as individuals with different backgrounds and tastes and preferences, but you have a common love of music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1251              COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Obviously your position is that no other radio station in the market offers first of all this kind of mix of music?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1252              MS. JANIK:  Definitely.  In the radio industry in general, we have gotten so used to pigeonholing music styles with certain genders.  There is a certain kind of limited approach to how radio can be done.  One of my clients in the United States, we created an alternative format for them that you would have recognized as sounding very similar to what CFNY sounded like during its hay‑day years in the mid 80s.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1253              COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  The spirit of radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1254              MS. JANIK:  The spirit of radio.  It created a great controversy in the United States, that how could this radio station play grunge and dance, that simply could not happen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1255              But we had the benefit of research that said to us the largest group of alternative fans were equally in love with grunge as they were with the new dance music.  It is that kind of passion for music that somehow falls off the plate with most of the mainstream formats.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1256              COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.  Thank you very much.  Those are all my questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1257              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  Commissioner, if I could jump in there.  That's the same passion that we so obviously found in the research that gives us our substantial level of confidence about our share of tuning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1258              The audience is telling us, we are out here, bring us the station, we are ready for you.  That is why we crafted the station the way we did.  So, we are highly confident about our share numbers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1259              MS. JANIK:  If I may add one more point.  That particular station that I was referring to became the number one alternative station in the United States among 120 other stations in the format with a 10.9 share 12 plus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1260              COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1261              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Duncan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1262              COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  I just had a couple of questions, and it may well be in your research and I just didn't have a chance to go through it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1263              In your comments this morning you mention that you tested 29 different individual styles of music.  Then you go right on to say then you asked how likely they would be to listen to each of seven formats.  I just wondered how you picked the seven and why you picked seven, not five, not nine?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1264              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  I will ask David to answer that.  David.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1265              MR. OAKES:  Those seven styles, what I did, the first step is to look at what already exists in the way of formats in the market, and then from past experience I look at formats that are formats that are not in the market, and then I picked out seven.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1266              It wasn't a magical number or anything.  It is just of the inventory of formats I have and the ones that exist in the market, I just subtracted them and came up with the seven.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1267              COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  There are seven not in the market or not predominant in the market?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1268              MR. OAKES:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1269              COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  There are triple A format, we authorized a signal for a new cat in Calgary, triple A, and I think there may have been some other conversions to that format in Canada in recent years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1270              I am wondering if you considered their success when you were considering this format or is your particular version of triple A so different that it is irrelevant?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1271              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  Liz.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1272              MS. JANIK:  This format is made especially for Vancouver.  While the name of the format is used here and there throughout Canada and the United States, there really isn't much parody between one station and another because of the market influences.  It depends on the history of the market, what music styles are played; it depends on the competitive issues that are in the market and also the character of the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1273              While it is of interest to me particularly to look over the fence and see what everybody else is doing, it would be a mistake on my part to take what other people are doing and assume that it would work in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1274              Perhaps another example of some of the successful progressive stations, you could look at early CHUM‑FM of the late 60s and 70s, CHOM‑FM in Montreal during the same time period, and the very earliest days of CHEZ‑FM.  Those three heritage formats were called progressive FM and were successful.  They are probably more in keeping with the feel and the commitment to music that we are considering for The Planet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1275              MR. OAKES:  If I can just finish off the question, initially in those seven formats there was no triple A.  It came out of the analysis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1276              COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  My understanding was that the most successful stations tried to appeal to the broadest audience and that to do that there had to be a consistency within their music so that the listener wanted to listen and always know they were going to get that type of music.  They weren't interested in this five or six or this great variety.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1277              Am I wrong in that, that is how it was and now the world has changed and this is where we are headed?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1278              MS. JANIK:  I would not say that you are inaccurate.  There are some audiences that prefer rock and rock only and some audiences that prefer urban and urban only.  But most music fans, whether they are top 40 and enjoying the mix of blues, pop, rock and urban on a top 40 station or if they are a little bit more developed in their music taste and are looking for something along the alternative lines, they are very comfortable with the mix of music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1279              The music you heard as the bed to the video this morning, I am not sure how your ears heard it, but for me it was a blend of music that picked me up and carried me along and made me want to tap my toes and sing along.  It is that quality of how you put the music together so that you have this flow that carries you through each hour.  That is what the appeal is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1280              So, yes, there are still audiences out there that are niched into this sound or that sound, but when you get to music fans, they are definitely very interested in a wider variety of music styles.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1281              MR. OAKES:  Once again, just to finish off, my analysis really shook out the adult alternative audience.  Originally, it came out of a format I called adult rock, and once I took a look at the audience and their music demands of the 29 styles, sure, they liked adult rock, but they had all these specialty music styles that they liked as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1282              So, the first thing I do after that is I test to see if they fit in with the mainstream styles.  Not only did they fit in, many of them were as popular as the mainstream.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1283              COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Just a question for Mr. McLaughlin, then.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1284              Is it your thought that you would get a listener and that listener would stay just on your station all the time or would they move around?  What do you expect from the listener?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1285              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  We are obviously going to have a core audience that hopefully loves our radio station a lot, and hopefully that is a big audience.  But realistically we will have a core that will use our station more than any other, but we will also have a number of listeners who will use us at different times of the day, depending on what they are looking for in their listening.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1286              They may use us in the evening when they are interested in the music that we are playing at that time, and use a news talk station on their drive to work in the morning, for example.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1287              It is really a variety.  What we do know is that the people who love music really showed up in huge numbers in David's research, which is what gives us such a high level of confidence in our numbers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1288              COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Just one last question.  In the market, in looking at the market, a number of the companies have three, four stations, two stations, so do you anticipate any particular problem as a stand‑alone?  Do you have synergies elsewhere?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1289              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  We do not.  We are a small stand‑alone company.  Are we afraid of the big guys?  No.  And let me tell you why.  Because we are here in Vancouver, and this is where it happens and this is where the listeners are.  We don't need decisions from Toronto.  When we fail, we have to pick ourselves up and go forward.  It is nobody else's fault but ours.  We are ready to go to work and do the job.  It doesn't concern us in the least.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1290              MR. BADH:  If I may add, Jim, there are other stand‑alone successful stations in Canada.  Yes, there would be advantages to us being larger and I think it did show up in the CCD numbers.  If I look at some of the larger companies that have more than $1 million a year on CCD, and yet they project to be losses, no, we are not that big.  Hopefully we will get that big one day, but for the time being I think our business plan is realistic and attainable and our financial resources can sustain this business plan.  As an owner I am willing to take that risk, Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1291              COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1292              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Menzies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1293              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.  I just want to touch on something regarding your plans for news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1294              It struck me that while your core is obviously the music, that one of the features you emphasized was that you would have a different approach to news, with an emphasis on arts, culture, the environment and health and lifestyle; that with a four‑person news department, plus producer, you're going to do 64 news casts a week, plus seven one‑hour daily summaries.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1295              I guess my questions are twofold.  The first one is how much of that daily one‑hour program will be local?  Secondly, given that journalists or news gatherers tend to travel in packs and you are moving off the beaten path a little, or aren't you?  My read of it is that you are moving off the beaten path a little bit with your focus, which I think is great, but it is hard work for a four‑person department.  Isn't that too much to ask for a small department?  Won't it get watered down eventually?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1296              MS. JANIK:  One of the common characteristics of this audience is that they are very vital and very active in the world around them.  A lot of radio stations have, over the past decade or so, identified a news talk station in the market and have determined that if people really want news, they are definitely going to go to that news and talk station, so they tend to give news headlines.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1297              We are looking for a more comprehensive approach to the format where we will be the one station where these adults, and I think 82 per cent of our listeners are over the age of 30, will be the one station in the market where they can tune in in the morning and get everything they need to know, in addition to the music mix that we have described, and the same thing in the afternoon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1298              With weekends, I think it would be a competitive advantage for us to give news coverage even on the weekends.  Yes, we have a very small news department, but with careful scheduling and planning, I have no doubt that we will be able to meet these commitments that we have outlined.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1299              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  My fault for asking too complicated a question.  How much of that one‑hour program each night will be local?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1300              MS. JANIK:  The content of the show will be directed to the local audience.  So, we are anticipating at least 80 per cent of it would have that local focus, would focus on issues that are relevant to Vancouver today.  If you like, Jaspreet could give you an itemization, if that show is on the air today, what are some of the topics that would be of interest to our listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1301              MS GILL:  Also to add a little bit to that, 80 per cent of the news would also encompass the legislation from Victoria.  That will be also in there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1302              For a sample show program, say at 1:00 o'clock we will have the mayoralty election that is going on right now as part of our ongoing coverage of the upcoming civic elections.  So, we would be interviewing a candidate, for example, Peter Ladner, asking a polster what she is seeing so far.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1303              At 1:12 approximately, Tambura Rasa.  It is one of the bands that was in our video there.  So they can talk about their CD release that is coming up, and they will be playing live at Lime on Commercial Drive.  We can play a clip and also have them in a small interview.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1304              At 1:24 we can talk about the carbon tax story that is going on right now and how B.C. is taking a lead on proposing legislation to enact that carbon tax.  We can talk to Minister Penner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1305              Also, at 1:36 there was just a recent multi‑cultural health fair that was held at the Croatian Cultural Centre.  We can go over the various kiosks, interview various people and what they found that was beneficial there and also add to The Planet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1306              At 1:48 first nations people at the Urban Reserves in Vancouver want to put on signs at Lion's Gate bridge.  We can talk about that and how they feel about having those signs on their land and how it is ruining their view and everything like that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1307              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  The magazine is not a news show, but may have some news content in it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1308              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  But it is local, is it?  That is really what I am trying to understand.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1309              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  Yes, predominantly local.  Everyone on the station is responsible for contributing to it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1310              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  You?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1311              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1312              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Good.  Just to clarify.  Just so I understand it fully, because when you talk about treating arts and culture as news, which I really find an engaging concept, are you moving that far away from the beaten path?  Are you going to do cops and courts or are you ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1313              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  I think the simple answer is no.  In the newscasts, the ten newscasts a day and that sort of thing, that will be similar to what I think you envision as news.  It is in the other areas and in the magazine show that we will move more towards the arts and culture side of things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1314              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  I understand that.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1315              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Some follow‑up questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1316              The audience that you are targeting, you have identified a broad group of 60 to 64, with a median age of 43.  What is your core audience group?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1317              MR. OAKES:  When I hear of core audience, to me that is a listener who says this station is the one station I listen to most often.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1318              Looking at that type of a listener, it narrows the age range and it is more like 35‑54.  But when it comes to musical styles that they like, they are not that different from the rest that I call cross‑tuners; the other ones would be listening more to another station.  They will listen to you, they will tune to you, but they won't give you as many hours tuned as another station.  But their musical style demands are pretty close to the cores, and it is balanced male and female as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1319              THE CHAIRPERSON:  It just looks like a pretty wide range.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1320              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  I think the issue here that may be a little bit confusing is that our core audience is people who like music, and that is not an age; it is a different measurement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1321              For instance, as a generality, we know the young people like the latest new musical styles and so we can categorize them as teen to 24 or something like that particular station.  What we are going to do with our station, it is for people who like music and they are not a specific age.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1322              MS. JANIK:  I sometimes refer to the alternative format as a format about attitude.  It is a youthful vital attitude that is the common characteristic between these listeners.  It is a wide age range, but it is interesting to me how various people that I played samples of the station for between the ages of 30 and 64 all respond to it based on the feel and the sound.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1323              MR. OAKES:  If you look at a classic rock audience, they are probably wider than we are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1324              THE CHAIRPERSON:  I would like you to comment on this.  I think we all know real music lovers, and from what I see, these real music lovers who have very eclectic tastes in music or are more adventurous in the music that they listen to don't tune to radio.  You can say that it is a chicken and egg situation, it is because there is nothing on conventional radio for them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1325              With new media, a lot of these music lovers have gone to new media or their iPods and all.  How do you plan to bring this group back to radio?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1326              MR. OAKES:  This is not an easy question to answer.  Maybe I can answer it this way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1327              About 98 per cent of the people in Vancouver already listen to radio.  So, you are not talking to somebody that is not listening to radio at all period.  You are talking about somebody who is spending a lot less hours tuned.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1328              If you look at younger listeners now, teens up to 25, the iPod and the internet is taking a lot of time away.  For years the Commission didn't allow CHR on FM, and that also took a lot away.  But even then teens still listened to radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1329              I am not exactly sure ‑‑ do you want to talk about this?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1330              MS. JANIK:  I think it is important to emphasize that the research was done with radio listeners.  So what music fans tend to do, if there is not their very own station, is that they will skip from one station to another to find a song that they are interested in or a style of music that they are interested in at the moment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1331              We are actually talking to radio listeners and it was radio listeners who sent back a very clear message that they love world beat and they love folk music and they love blues, and when answering the question, would you agree that the new FM should play this kind of music, we had an exceptionally high number of people who agreed to that, in some cases better than 40 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1332              MR. OAKES:  In my research, I estimated that about one‑third of our hours tuned to the station will come from new hours tuned in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1333              MR. BADH:  If I may add Commissioner, one of the successes behind a successful radio station is being local in the community and I think that is what we represent.  With us being local grassroots, we will reach out, we will be in the community and we will be building these bridges.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1334              THE CHAIRPERSON:  The two‑thirds that are from the existing stations, listeners, did you have an idea of which stations you will be drawing them from?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1335              MR. OAKES:  Yes.  Basically what I did was I took a look at what our audience was currently listening to.  In keeping with their wide music styles, not only was it just about every station in the market, including country and classical, but it was also news talk, sports.  So, the two‑thirds are going to come from a vast array of radio stations, and from my estimates I can't see any one station being hurt by us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1336              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1337              The last question is:  This is your pitch of why do you think you are the best?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1338              MR. BADH:  Thank you, Madam Chair, Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1339              Diversity has become a major issue in our society over the past few years and has been at the forefront in broadcasting as well.  Whether it is the Commission's policies to encourage cultural diversity or your recent proceedings to encourage diversity of voices in broadcasting, diversity has become a watch word for the industry.  We believe that diversity is a factor that distinguishes our application from others.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1340              Diversity of ownership.  We will be a new and distinct voice in the Vancouver radio community.  We will be locally owned with a new group of owners, but we are also a group with a wealth of broadcast experience and the financial resources necessary to succeed in this competitive market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1341              Diversity in programming.  Our research has identified an eclectic format that provides a wide range of compatible music styles not currently available in Vancouver.  We have made strong commitments in this regard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1342              One, 40 per cent category 3 music as a condition of licence, and reasonably distributed throughout the week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1343              Two, 40 per cent Canadian content in both category 2 and category 3 music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1344              Three, 20 per cent of our weekly spins will be from emerging Canadian artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1345              Four, our approach to Canadian content and development reflect with our local roots.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1346              Cultural diversity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1347              Number one, in ownership, if licensed, I will be the only visible minority owner of a mainstream radio station in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1348              Two, in employment practices, we will hire a work force reflective of the new Vancouver, with 50 per cent women and a proactive policy to reach out to visible minorities, aboriginal Canadians and persons with disabilities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1349              Three, in music, with a strong presence of world beat music, reggae, blues, as well as aboriginal music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1350              Commissioners, we are the newcomers to the broadcasting community as a company, but we bring a wealth of experience to the table.  We will bring a new sound to Vancouver, one designed to meet the new face of Vancouver, diverse, eclectic:  The Planet.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1351              Thank you for your attention and your questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1352              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I believe legal counsel has a question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1353              MS PINSKY:  I would like to set out some deadlines for the filings of the two undertakings that you made.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1354              In the first place, you undertook to file some revised allocations for the CCD.  Could you file that, please, by the end of Wednesday of this week?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1355              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  Yes, no problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1356              MS PINSKY:  Secondly, you undertook to file some letters from various institutions in relation to your CCD commitments.  When do you think you would be in a position to file those?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1357              MR. McLAUGHLIN:  Before the end of this hearing process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1358              MS PINSKY:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1359              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1360              Let's take a break now for 15 minutes and be back at 11:25.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1108 / Suspension à 1108

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1127 / Reprise à 1127

LISTNUM 1 \l 1361              THE SECRETARY:  Please take a seat.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1362              We will now proceed with item 2, which is an application by Touch Canada Broadcasting for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial specialty radio programming undertaking in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1363              Please introduce yourself and your colleagues, and you will then have 20 minutes for your presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1364              Thank you.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 1365              MR. ALLARD:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1366              Madam Chair, Commissioners and CRTC staff, my name is Charles Allard and I am a Director and President of Touch Canada Broadcasting 2006 Inc., the general partner of Touch Canada Broadcasting Limited Partnership, the applicant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1367              It is a pleasure to be back in Vancouver where I was raised through my elementary to university school years and where I still own and maintain a residence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1368              We are very excited to be here today to have the opportunity to apply for this very unique and scarce FM frequency for a contemporary gospel music radio station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1369              I would like to introduce our panel here with me today.  On my right is Allan Hunsperger, founder and Director of Development for Touch Canada and its predecessor entities.  Next to him is Bev Karbonik, our Business Manager.  To my left is Malcolm Hunt, Network Programming Director, and next to him is Richard Burrows, Retail Sales Manager.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1370              Behind me, to my right is Maureeta Percy, Vice‑President of Ipsos‑Reid.  To the left of Maureeta is Brandon Wall, a well‑known local Vancouver adult contemporary recording artist.  For ease of identification, we have attached a seating chart at the end of these remarks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1371              We would like to note up front that in our application in section 6.1 we showed the market share at 7 per cent, but our revenue numbers were based on our experience in Edmonton and Calgary which, in the past, have always been between 2 and 4 per cent market share.  Our experience in starting up stations and the fact that we will be launching with two American broadcasters with similar formats, one of whose signals has been impaired but is still present in the Vancouver market.  Our estimate of actual revenues is based on a market share of between 2 and 3 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1372              MR. HUNSPERGER:  With the introduction of adult contemporary gospel music in Edmonton over 14 years ago in the AM format, we have been pleased with the growth of and the general awareness and acceptance we are starting to see in western Canada, especially in Alberta.  This is starting to show up in our marketing studies, and it was overwhelmingly apparent when we initially spoke with businesses and the general public who asked us to start a radio station in Grande Prairie, Alberta, in 2005 after listening to our existing stations.  We received a licence for Grande Prairie on December 22, 2006 (Decision 2006‑623) and that station commenced operation on November 28, 2007.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1373              We closely watched the CRTC's proceedings in 2006 when the CRTC licenced a new FM radio station for Greater Vancouver which significantly limited the existing praise and worship station, Praise 106.5 crossing the border, which many of us listened to while visiting the Vancouver and Victoria areas.  Touch Canada made a commitment to ourselves that we would submit an application for gospel radio, and we advised our engineering firm to let us know when the 104.1 frequency for Vancouver was available, as we were determined to apply in order to restore the gospel music format by a Canadian broadcaster in Vancouver and repatriate some of the lost listeners.  We found out about the release of the frequency in February of last year and promptly set to work to determine if there was still the demand for a gospel format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1374              There is no question in our minds, given the Ipsos‑Reid report and our own discussions with parties involved in gospel music in Vancouver, that there would be a positive response for a gospel radio station here.  The demand for such a service is evident given the numerous letters of support for the application and the 7,000‑plus letters of opposition received by the CRTC in 2006 to the licensing of a new station because of the resulting impairment to the signal of the American station, Praise 106.5, which had a significant audience in the Lower Mainland.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1375              If we were to be successful in obtaining a licence for Greater Vancouver, it would also improve our company's synergies and enhance the long‑term viability in Canada for this gospel music format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1376              In addition to diversity in programming, our proposed station would bring more diversity in advertising.  By this, we mean we would actually increase the amount of advertising dollars spent on radio in the Vancouver area.  Our experience at our existing stations in Edmonton and Calgary and especially with our sister station in Grande Prairie is that this genre attracts businesses that do not typically advertise on mainstream radio.  Many of these advertisers are business people who enjoy gospel music and are willing to utilize radio advertising to ensure that the format has a base of revenue in order for it to succeed and flourish.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1377              This genre of music not only provides an alternative format by a Canadian broadcaster, but also fills a need according to those polled in our market research study.  To further explain our survey results, I would like to call upon Maureeta Percy, Vice‑President of Ipsos‑Reid.  Maureeta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1378              MS PERCY:  Thank you, Allan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1379              Ipsos‑Reid was commissioned by Touch Canada to conduct a survey with a random sample of 400 adults from the Vancouver area to determine the market potential for a contemporary Christian music radio station.  Telephone interviews were conducted between April 20th and May 6th, 2007.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1380              Interest in such a station in Vancouver is strong and encouraging.  Based on a brief description of the potential new station, a total of 26 per cent of respondents indicated they would listen to it either regularly or occasionally.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1381              Eighty‑six per cent of those who expressed interest in the new station were likely to become daily listeners for an average of almost 44 minutes per day.  Additionally, almost one‑quarter of those who would listen to the new station say their radio listening habits would increase if the station were to be licensed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1382              The audience for gospel music in Vancouver closely mirrors the level of support for a new Christian music radio station.  Presently, 30 per cent of Vancouver area residents say they listen to Christian music programming, but almost three in ten of those, 28 per cent, are not satisfied with the amount of this type of music available to them, indicating a further demand for this format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1383              If this station existed today, it would likely become a popular radio station in the Vancouver area.  Assuming that the 26 per cent of Vancouver residents who indicate they would likely listen to the new station do so at least occasionally, it has the potential to attract more listeners than 106.5 KWPZ currently broadcast from Lynden, Washington.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1384              The new contemporary Christian music radio station is likely to have broad appeal, skewing somewhat to females and to households with children in them under the age of 18.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1385              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you, Maureeta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1386              Richard Burrows, our retail sales manager will now share with you our view of the market in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1387              MR. BURROWS:  Thank you.  With a population of approximately 2,200,000, Greater Vancouver is the nation's third largest metropolitan area and its rate of growth was tenth among the Canadian census 33 metropolitan areas in 2006.  The city's vibrant retail and commercial base attracts a vast trading area of residents and attracted 8.6 million of visitors in 2006, which will accelerate dramatically in 2010, being the portal for the Olympic games.  Vancouver will be the biggest beneficiary of this event.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1388              Vancouver's economy is firing on all cylinders with all the contracted building for residential and commercial space and with all the significant infrastructure development that is being undertaken for the Olympic games.  We see continued growth and expansion in 2008.  Employment is up overall, despite job losses in the forest industry sectors.  Robust job growth will lead to higher levels of immigration, and Vancouver is always one of the most desirable places for people to live in as shown in most surveys conducted throughout the world from time to time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1389              Although traditionally reliant on the resources sector, Vancouver has diversified over time and has an ever growing tourist industry.  It is also the home of the third largest film production centre in North America.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1390              According to the Financial Post retail sales survey, the total estimated retail sales for 2008 are expected to be approximately $31 billion.  These sales are forecast to continue to increase over the next several years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1391              Competition for media dollars in Vancouver is significant for a market serving 2 million people.  There are two major English‑language daily newspapers and two English‑language national newspapers, three daily Chinese newspapers, and numerous daily, weekly and bi‑weekly neighbourhood newspapers.  There are three main news radio stations:  CBC Radio One, CKNW and News 1130, as well as over 20 FM radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1392              The cornerstone of our start‑up marketing strategy consists, quite simply, of pre‑selling packages with 20 to 30 parties that are interested in hearing a Canadian gospel radio station in the Greater Vancouver area.  This strategy worked extremely well with our start up in Grande Prairie.  In fact, our pre‑selling of our packages to mostly non‑traditional radio advertisers resulted in our budget being within 5 per cent of our original projections.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1393              Revenue estimates are based on a start‑up radio station scenario, our experience in Calgary and Edmonton and are pro‑rated to Vancouver's population and Shine FM's realistic estimated market share and also discounted for signals with similar formats coming across the border.  We believe the Vancouver market will be able to handle an additional radio station with an adult gospel contemporary format without adversely affecting the existing market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1394              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you, Richard.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1395              There is no one else in this country that has had more experience in programming gospel music radio than our Network Program Director, Malcolm Hunt.  Malcolm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1396              MR. HUNT:  Thanks, Allan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1397              Having recently assisted the launch of 96.3 Shine FM in Grande Prairie, I have to say how excited I am to be a part of this team applying for a new gospel radio station here in Vancouver.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1398              The steady growth of Canadian gospel music artists and our industry as a whole is directly impacted by the increase in the number of radio stations that are licensed.  If we look at the artists that feed the secular formats, I am sure you will agree their successful growth was largely attributed to how many radio stations were playing their music.  Our industry is no different.  Canadian gospel music artists need radio to be viable.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1399              British Columbia, along with other provinces like Saskatchewan, is seriously underserved with respect to gospel radio.  The Vancouver market was once mainly serviced by an American radio station out of Lynden, Washington, and is now partially serviced but significantly impaired.  104.1 Shine FM will fill the void left by the Lynden service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1400              When Shine FM signs on in Vancouver, it will have four full‑time and three part‑time programming staff.  Our morning show and drive home show will each have one full‑time host and a full‑time news anchor.  Weekend and midday programming will be voice tracked by our Vancouver staff, and we will also hire a part‑time weekend news anchor.  Evenings will feature a program called Today's Family with Beth Warden, a Canadian syndicated program that airs of all of our FM stations.  Touch Canada produces this program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1401              An extremely important aspect of our programming is Canadian content.  We continue to exceed our licence requirement of 10 per cent at our existing operations.  For example, last week, Shine FM in Edmonton aired 19.3 per cent Canadian content.  We will continue to exceed the required level in Vancouver, should we obtain a licence, and we will be able to achieve 20 per cent by the end of our first licence term.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1402              Shine FM Vancouver will provide a weekly total of nearly 30 hours of spoken word programming.  This will include close to four hours of news, weather and sports, approximately seven hours of local reflection and announcer content, just over an hour of comedy and human interest features and 15 hours of brokered programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1403              News is an area that Touch Canada continues to improve upon.  We continue to expand our news departments and feel with the addition of 2.5 news staff, we can adequately report the stories and information our Vancouver listeners need to know about, at the same time increasing our reporting capabilities with the other markets we serve.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1404              We are very proud of our Canadian content development initiatives.  A total after $105,000 will be allocated to CCD during the licence term.  Due to the new CCD calculations, Touch Canada will be allocating $30,000 to FACTOR and $75,000 to the Canadian Gospel Music Association.  Please note that this is updated from the figures previously identified in our appendix 8‑a.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1405              GMA Week is an annual event including a conference, talent showcase, awards show and artist competition designed to train, encourage and network artists and the gospel music industry coast to coast.  The GMA portion of our CCD commitment will be devoted to three areas:  The competitions, the training sessions and the Covenant Awards Show.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1406              The GMA Canada Covenant Awards gives out 38 awards each year for albums, artists and the industry in a variety of genres of music.  The number of awards and attendance has grown over the years.  This year saw over 1200 in attendance with artists from across Canada, as well as Canadian artists who have centered their operations out of Nashville, including Hawk Nelson and Downhere.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1407              We should mention last fall Shine FM was recognized as the Radio Station of the Year industry award at the GMA week.  That is an honour we are very, very proud of.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1408              Leroy Harder from GMA Canada is on our panel today, and will explain the importance of their organization.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1409              MR. HARDER:  Thank you, Malcolm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1410              GMA Canada exists to foster and promote Canadian gospel music.  They do this through this annual GMA Canada week, which consists of the training sessions in songwriting and artist development, the Shine FM cross‑Canada talent search and the Covenant Awards, now in its 30th year.  This week also provides opportunities for artists and industry to network.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1411              GMA Canada has contracted Slyngshot Productions to produce and promote this annual event, and through the CCD funding from Shine FM, GMA Canada has been able to assist artists from across Canada in establishing their careers in the following ways.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1412              The Shine FM cross‑Canada talent search.  As a Canadian Idol style competition with over 250 entries this past year, Slyngshot Productions and GMA Canada was able to give out prizes valued at over $20,000.  These prizes make an impact in artists' lives, including development deals with Canadian labels, showcase opportunities in front of labels, managers and agents and other practical prizes such as photo and design, instruments and recording equipment.  Having Shine radio stations in Edmonton, Calgary and now Grande Prairie has been a key component in this competition, both attracting and informing the core demographic interested in the competition and resulting in submissions more than doubling last year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1413              Canadian Christian Music Conference (CCMC).  The CCD fund enabled the CCMC to double its lineup of speakers and clinicians without creating unreasonable costs for the conference attendees.  This allowed the conference to absorb approximately $120 per attendee for registration while, at the same time, registrations doubled this year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1414              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Thank you, Leroy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1415              For the Commission to get a feel for the effect of gospel radio, we would ask Brandon Wall, band member and gospel artist to express his experience.  Brandon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1416              MR. WALL:  After ten years in a gospel rock band we have learned some very important details relating to the success of the independent artist.  If we look at what it takes to get your music out there ‑‑ booking agents, live venues, internet presence and word of mouth ‑‑ all play a crucial part in the life of an artist.  We did all these things and achieved some level of success.  This list had one more thing added after the release of our most recent album, Radio Play.  As our song was played, we saw a marked increase in orders for our music from the same region that the radio support was coming from.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1417              Until this point we knew that radio was a big part of any music's success, but we would have never guessed this big.  Shine FM in Edmonton, Calgary and Grande Prairie have been so good to independent artists, and my hope as a west coaster would be to have the same opportunity in my own home market.  We do not get the same chance to be heard on American stations, but thanks to genre‑specific radio and Canadian content regulations we have a chance to keep our art alive in a market dominated by major label machines from our southern neighbours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1418              A gospel music station in Vancouver would be an incredible addition to the musical mosaic of our great city.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1419              MR. HUNSPERGER:  One of the other areas that we are very proud of in our existing operations is our work with local charities.  Bev Karbonik, our Business Manager, will share some details concerning how we have helped charities in the cities that we are now broadcasting in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1420              MS KARBONIK:  As Allan mentioned, Touch Canada is very proud of its partnerships with very deserving charities in the markets it currently serves.  In Edmonton and Calgary, we have raised over $5 million for these charities.  Many of these organizations tell us that our radio‑thons, for them, are their biggest fundraising events of the year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1421              For example, our initial radio‑thon for the Mustard Seed Ministries in Calgary raised $175,000 in 2003 and that has grown to $425,000 in 2006.  With the help of many volunteers, these radio‑thons have helped meet the needs of these charities, which have helped many who have nowhere else to live but the streets.  These monies help them get off the streets and change their lives.  We now have many success stories and these people in turn are now helping others find a better life.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1422              If licensed in Vancouver, we fully intend to search out worthy charities, including a street mission, to assist in a similar fashion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1423              MR. ALLARD:  Thank you, Bev.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1424              Madam Chair, Commissioners, with your approval and our ability to provide the infrastructure, including personnel, programming, marketing and the financial backing to sustain such a station, we are confident that we can establish a successful gospel voice in this market, thereby satisfying the needs of the 26 per cent of Vancouver and area residents who desire our kind of format which will restore and increase the diversity within this market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1425              Touch Canada has been committed to the gospel format since we started broadcasting in April of 1994 on AM 930 CJCA in Edmonton, Alberta.  We have no plans or intentions of changing to other formats, as we believe there is a market for today's gospel music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1426              Thank you for allowing us this opportunity, and we will be happy to answer any questions you might have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1427              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.Allard and your panel.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1428              I will ask Commissioner Menzies to lead the questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1429              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you for the presentation.  Just a few particulars first and then some more particulars.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1430              Your application indicated that you would be producing 34 hours and 41 minutes of spoken word, of which three hours and 32 minutes would be news, weather and sports.  But in your reply in November, you said your weekly average would be 36 hours, 28 minutes of spoken word, and that would include six hours and four minutes of news, sports, weather, traffic and entertainment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1431              Can you clarify which total you are going with, the 34/41 or 36/28?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1432              MR. HUNT:  It would be the 34.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1433              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1434              Of that 34, how much of that will be pure news broadcast per week?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1435              MR. HUNT:  It would be approximately six hours of that through the week.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1436              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  How much of that news would be dedicated to local news and ‑‑ well, answer that one first.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1437              MR. HUNT:  Sure.  It is approximately 60 per cent local and 40 per cent national and international.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1438              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  How would that news be different from the news that is available in the marketplace now?  What would make it unique?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1439              MR. HUNT:  Having been able to do this for almost 14 years now, we have been able to develop newscasts that are somewhat more family oriented than what is on the air today.  We would tend to cover many of the same stories, but the wording that we use would slant more to, we have kids in the cars of the families that are listening to our radio station and we don't slant to the sensational side of the news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1440              We still report the facts, but we do it in such a way that is more family friendly.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1441              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  I don't want to put you on the spot, but can you give me an example?  You don't have to right now.  We can come back to that one if you want to take some time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1442              MR. HUNT:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1443              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  How much of your news content would be what we would call enterprise reporting, that you would be creating on your own and how much of it would be offwire services and what you would call rip and read, I guess?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1444              MR. HUNT:  Again, because the wording of how we prepare our newscast is going to be different from many of the other radio stations, if they are ripping and reading, we basically rewrite everything.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1445              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Your core demographic is described as a 33 to 35 year old, but then your application goes on to say, and your business plan, that 80 per cent of your audience will be over 35, which just confuses us a little bit as to how that would balance.  I just wanted to clarify on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1446              MR. HUNT:  Can you tell me where that is located?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1447              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  In your application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1448              MR. HUNT:  It says 80 per cent?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1449              MS PINSKY:  It is in your 16 November response to the deficiency.  It may be that your arrow is pointing the wrong way, in response to number 5.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1450              MR. HUNT:  I am going to ask you to repeat the question now I that I found it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1451              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  It describes your core audience as a 33 to 35 year old, but then it said that the vast majority, or we read it as the vast majority of your audience, 80 per cent would be over 35.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1452              MR. HUNT:  I believe the arrow was pointing the wrong way.  It is under 35.  It would be 35 and less.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1453              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  So, if I am an advertiser and you are selling it to me, you are still selling me a median of a 33 to 35 year old?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1454              MR. HUNT:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1455              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Likely being younger?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1456              MR. HUNT:  Somewhat slightly, but, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1457              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  To help, is the 33 to 35 more or less in the middle of your audience?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1458              MR. HUNT:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1459              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  I am curious about your marketing plan in terms of the 20 to 30 prior commitments and how that would work.  Part of that comes from when I was reading up on the area, I read an article on line on actually canadianchristianty.com, that was describing the Vancouver market or British Columbia market in a roundabout way.  It was from a Stats Can report.  It showed that in British Columbia 35 per cent, the highest number in Canada, of people identified themselves as having no faith connection at all.  I think the numbers are 32 per cent Protestant and then 17 per cent Roman Catholic, and with the fastest growing faith populations being Muslim and Sikh.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1460              I am just trying to figure out where in that you are going to market yourself.  I don't have the statistics for Vancouver in particular, but typically urban communities have even lower faith orientations than rural communities.  I am curious about your confidence in your marketing plan, given that you mentioned Grande Prairie and your success there, and the likely demographic differences between Grande Prairie in terms of faith commitment and orientation and, therefore, interest in gospel and Christian music and Vancouver.  Can you help me with that a bit?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1461              MR. HUNSPERGER:  The amazing thing is that we make an assumption that people who listen to gospel music are people that attend a church or are from a faith group, and that is not necessarily true.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1462              What we find, first of all, is a lot of our listeners that tune in and want to listen to us are more interested in the family friendliness part of radio, and it is a song that their children can sing and enjoy and whatever.  Many of them would not necessarily belong to a faith group or even attend a church.  They just are enjoying the positive family friendly‑type style of music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1463              We don't have any way to market this, but we have always said probably about 60 per cent of our audience are people who don't necessarily attend a local church or synagogue of anywhere.  They are just people who are interested in their family; they are people who want to raise their kids in a very positive environment; and that is what they are looking for.  That is where we get probably the majority of our listeners from.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1464              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  So, you are still confident that that marketing strategy for Grande Prairie would be effective here?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1465              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes, we are.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1466              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Have you done any advance work?  Would you have any commitments from people?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1467              MR. HUNSPERGER:  We don't have any contracts obviously signed, but there are a great majority of people that we have contacted here and feel that we are going to be heading in our projections and meeting what we have put down in the application quite freely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1468              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  An additional part to that, part of what you indicated in your presentation was that the people who would support you ‑‑ this is the way I heard it anyway, and I just want you to clarify ‑‑ would do so because they want to support the whole idea of a gospel Christian music station in their community.  I don't want to use the word "philanthropic," but it kind of came to mind.  Actually, it is not the right word, but I can't think of the right one, that they are doing it out of a sense of commitment to the genre, rather than necessarily an expectation of large commercial return.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1469              Are they getting both or how does it work?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1470              MR. HUNSPERGER:  I think our sales manager can answer that maybe a little better than I am, but I don't think we have any advertisers on that aren't expecting a return and aren't expecting customers to walk in the door.  But we are getting them because they are excited about the format and they are wanting to come on board, but obviously we have got to do the job, just like any other advertiser, and bring people in the door or we don't keep them very long.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1471              MR. BURROWS:  That is very true.  We do have clients, specifically in Calgary that I am thinking of, one of our major home builders, that supports the radio station and has been for a number of years.  But we happen to sell a lot of houses for him with our audience.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1472              He likes the bigger picture of what we are trying to do, the positive sound.  He is a family guy and he has one of our stickers in his window because he turns on the radio and he feels confident that his kids are listening to music that is safe and fun.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1473              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Are you ready to answer that question I was going to give you some time to think about?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1474              MR. HUNT:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1475              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Before I forget.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1476              MR. HUNT:  No problem.  I am not a news guy, so I can't really describe any of the news today because I have been so concentrating on this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1477              But anyway, if, for example, a bomb explodes in Iraq or something like that, the description on many radio stations now oftentimes would be very detailed and very graphic in a lot of the words that they would use.  We wouldn't go that graphic and that detailed but still explain to the people that this had happened because I think it is important to them.  But I don't think we would go ‑‑ I know we wouldn't go ‑‑ as in detail as many of the mainstream stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1478              Does that give you a bit of a glimpse?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1479              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Yes, that's helpful.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1480              In your presentation you clarified right off the beginning, I was going to ask about the 7 per cent versus 3.2 per cent.  Are you still looking at 1.2 million hours for the business plan, because we had calculated that out on the BBM as 1.2 million hours of listener share per week at about 3.7 per cent, and your business plan ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1481              MR. ALLARD:  No, we probably should divide that to get to the 2 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1482              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Sorry, what I had looked at originally was that you had said 7 per cent and I thought that is kind of big and compared to BBM, the 1.2 million hours worked out at 3.7.2 per cent.  Should that 1.2 million be depressed to 2.5 per cent, then, and what sort of impact would that have on your business plan then?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1483              MR. HUNSPERGER:  First of all, we brought it down to 2 and 3 per cent because that is what our business plan is.  The 7 per cent was gathered the same way as almost the other friends before us, where you take this huge percentage that you have with your market survey and then you divide it by 3 and you try to get it down to what looks similar, and of course that is where they came up with this 7 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1484              But we knew from our business plan, what we are doing in Calgary and Edmonton, that is way out of whack.  So that is why Mr. Allard did that beginning statement.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1485              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  So your business plan, your revenue forecasts are unchanged?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1486              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Unchanged.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1487              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1488              I just want to talk about KWPZ in Lynden for a minute.  My latest information is that they still have a 2.2 per cent share in this market.  You mentioned that they were quite badly impaired.  Is that 2.2 per cent your understanding of their market share right now?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1489              MR. HUNSPERGER:  No, our understanding was their market share was between 3 and 4 per cent in what we saw, and they are now down to the 2.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1490              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  The 2.2 is the latest?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1491              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1492              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  What is your strategy going to be in terms of repatriating those people, because there is obviously an opportunity there, as you described, the 7,000 letters of protest, but on the other side, 7,000 letters of protest also mean that people were quite committed and that the audience that they maintain is very committed there.  I want to know how much of that audience you think you can repatriate and how you are going to do it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1493              MR. HUNSPERGER:  The interesting thing about that is that within the last three months they have basically changed their format to almost sound exactly what we are playing in Edmonton or in Calgary.  What we have been in contact with is a lot of the people who would be in association with those people who helped organize those letters to go to the Commission, and many of those people are now either getting a scratchy signal or can't get it where they are located at all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1494              What we will be doing obviously is marketing, then, to those people to let them know that what they were used to for the last 20 years or so is now coming back in full power here in the Vancouver market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1495              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  In terms of advertising rates, according to In‑House's application, which I will just mention is coming up, KWPZ is only charging $68 a minute for advertising and you plan to charge $104 a minute.  That seems like a pretty big spread particularly for a challenger.  I am just curious to know how you might make that up or if you agree with those numbers?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1496              MR. ALLARD:  No, we don't agree with their numbers.  I think their spot rate is about $55 and we are close to that $55.  I think we are $52.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1497              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1498              In terms of your audience share projections, your application indicates that you will very rapidly build your audience when you first come in and then essentially rely on maintaining and nurturing it with not much growth forecast.  Isn't that a little risky, not forecasting any growth in a market this dynamic?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1499              MR. HUNSPERGER:  We are trying to go by experience.  We seem to be able to get anywhere from a 2 to a 4 per cent share and that kind of levels off at that.  To go higher would be not realistic when we are trying to project what is going to happen from the economic point of view.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1500              In Calgary or in Edmonton, where we have been the longest, we have a good audience.  It is a sustaining audience, it is a faithful audience, it is a loyal audience.  In fact, we find that our audience is probably the most loyal in the market, but it doesn't necessarily grow by leaps and bounds.  It kind of stays steady.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1501              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1502              You are projecting about $200,000 a year in brokered programming.  Do you have firm commitments on that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1503              MR. HUNSPERGER:  We have talked to the agencies that are involved in those programming, companies, and we have assurances that they are interested in the Vancouver market, but obviously no contracts are signed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1504              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Can you clarify a little bit on your contra revenue projections, how that exactly ‑‑ well, not exactly, but generally will be arrived at?  Any examples would be helpful, and where it is offset, in other words, what the exchange is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1505              MS KARBONIK:  Our exchange is almost 100 per cent goes into our sales expenses promotions, the contra in and the contra out is an exchange for anything promotional.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1506              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Promo time on there?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1507              MS KARBONIK:  No, it depends what kind of promotional company we mean.  The revenue will be, say, some kind of T‑shirt company will have their advertising on the radio, and in exchange for T‑shirts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1508              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  How will that articulate itself in terms of revenue or offset expenses for you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1509              MS KARBONIK:  It is under the sales.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1510              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1511              MR. HUNSPERGER:  If I can also add, it is also under promotion, which is what she was talking about, you know, billboards or advertising or that kind of thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1512              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  You will be exchanging for ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 1513              MR. HUNSPERGER:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1514              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Your projected losses over the course of the first licence term and the amount of financing you indicated you have in place are almost equivalent.  If you don't meet your revenue projections, that could appear on the face of it as presenting you with a problem.  What I am trying to do is explore your ability and level of commitment to shore it up if you don't meet those revenue projections.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1515              MR. ALLARD:  Commissioner Menzies, maybe I should answer that.  I have been in this since 1994.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1516              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  I thought you might be the guy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1517              MR. ALLARD:  Often we don't meet our projections and we have always sustained ourselves and I have always put in the cash.  I have got one application right now, the Commission is involved with it, it is actually four times the original budget that we had filed.  But I have always made sure that I have lived up to my commitments with the CRTC.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1518              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1519              Just give me a moment.  There was a couple other items.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1520              I just want to clarify on your update in your presentation on the Canadian content initiatives.  I was trying to call up appendix 8‑a, I believe it was, and I am challenged.  Can you just clarify for me there that you will be allocating $30,000 to FACTOR and $75,000 to the Gospel Music Association, for a total of $105,000, and that is updated from the previous figures.  Can you describe the difference?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1521              MS KARBONIK:  The total value is still the same.  It is just the 60/40 split for the basic and then the 80/20 split on the over and above contribution has been revised.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1522              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1523              Just one last question.  I just want you to go over again to give me a brief example of where you believe the core difference is between you and the other applicant in this genre, In‑House.  What thought would you want me to focus on in assessing the difference between the strengths of your application and the strengths of theirs?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1524              MR. ALLARD:  We think they have a good application.  We think they have over estimated the revenues.  I think we have a little bit more experience there.  Just because of our experience, we think the revenues are a little on the high side.  That is basically it.  Their rate is low; $25 spot rate is too low.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1525              Those are really only the two major things.  Revenue is too high and the rate is a little bit low.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1526              COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1527              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cugini, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1528              COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1529              Those of you who know me by now always know I like to take advantage of artists when they are in the room.  So, Mr. Wall, I am going to ask you just a couple of questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1530              Is your music played on other radio stations?  I ask that because U2 started off as a Christian rock band.  So is your music played on other radio stations?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1531              MR. WALL:  We have kind of been limited to the western Canada market for the last ten years, played almost every small town.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1532              COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Why is that?  Why are you limited to western Canada?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1533              MR. WALL:  It is nearly impossible without an agent in the U.S. to be able to get down there and get your start in a market that is huge comparatively.  The cost of traveling and playing music and travel between Canadian cities and so on.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1534              Basically what has happened in Edmonton and Calgary has given us a chance to be heard even when we are not out playing live.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1535              COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Have you approached other radio stations with your music or has your agent or manager?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1536              MR. WALL:  Being independent for the last several years, the whole grid work is different between when you have somebody who has a vested interest.  They have financially backed you.  Being independent we are financially backing ourselves.  So, we are limited to the contacts and the money that we have at the time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1537              Saying that, I am sure if somebody was to request our song enough times on any station that was reasonable ‑‑ even internet radio now has gotten very difficult to get played on.  We are getting responses when we say we will submit to an open submission.  We have enough responses from the major label bands, we don't even have time to look at independent artists, especially from Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1538              COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  If it wasn't for Shine FM in Edmonton you wouldn't be anywhere on the map is what you are saying?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1539              MR. WALL:  They are definitely raising our profile.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1540              COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you very much.  Those are all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1541              THE CHAIRPERSON:  I have a question on the CCD.  I am not understanding yet the discrepancy between your appendix 8‑a and what you have pointed out in your presentation this morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1542              MS KARBONIK:  Appendix 8‑a has a total 60/40 split for the entire term, whereas the revised figures have a 60/40 split for the basic and then an 80/20 split for the over and above.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1543              THE CHAIRPERSON:  What is your over and above, please?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1544              MS KARBONIK:  The numbers are different for each year because they are based on the revenue from the preceding year.  So, I can supply those figures.  But the overall amount is still the same, still the 105.  It is just the split between the GMA and the FACTOR that has to pertain to your regulations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1545              THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I believe our legal counsel has some questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1546              MS PINSKY:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1547              I just have one question relating to your target audience and the marketing further to the discussion that you just had with Commissioner Menzies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1548              You were saying that in terms of your listeners that you are finding that about 60 per cent of your listeners actually either don't attend any kind of religious institution, either church, synagogue, whatever, temple, nor would they necessarily be affiliated with any religious faith.  Is that what I understand?

LISTNUM 1 \l 1549