TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

                      SUBJECT / SUJET:

Various broadcasting applications /

Diverses demandes de radiodiffusion

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

Quartz Ballroom                       Quartz Ballroom

Matrix Hotel                          Matrix Hôtel

10001-107th Street                    10001-107th Street

Edmonton, Alberta                     Edmonton (Alberta)

June 5, 2008                          Le 5 juin 2008

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

                 Transcript / Transcription

Various broadcasting applications /

Diverses demandes de radiodiffusion

BEFORE / DEVANT:

Elizabeth Duncan                  Chairperson / Présidente

Rita Cugini                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Candice Molnar                    Commissioner / Conseillère

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Cindy Ventura                     Secretary / Sécretaire

Lyne Cape                         Hearing Manager /

                                  Gérante de l'audience

Véronique Lehoux                  Legal Counsel

                                  Conseillère Juridique

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

Quartz Ballroom                   Quartz Ballroom

Matrix Hotel                      Matrix Hôtel

10001-107th Street                10001-107th Street

Edmonton, Alberta                 Edmonton (Alberta)

June 5, 2008                      Le 5 juin 2008

- iv -

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

                                                 PAGE / PARA

PHASE III (Cont'd)

INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:

ArtStart/E4C                                     1873 /12105

Slowburn, Blues Band                             1877 /12124

Harpdog Brown and the Bloodhounds                1880 /12140

Barrypatch Records                               1901 /12281

Sarah Pocklington                                1905 /12307

Nestor Pistor Productions Ltd.                   1913 /12349

CKUA Radio Network                               1930 /12469

Community Radio Fund                             1945 /12550

Byron Christopher                                1954 /12588

Edmonton Public Schools                          1961 /12630

UrbanDNA Events                                  1973 /12714

Jonny Chung                                      1980 /12756

Q99 FM                                           1983 /12773

Peter Kossowan                                   1986 /12791

Aboriginal Voices Radio                          2002 /12910

Laura Vinson                                     2011 /12949

Canadian Rocky Mountain Festival                 2014 /12967

Western Canadian Music Alliance                  2020 /12997

Gateway Entertainment                            2042 /13131

- v -

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

                                                 PAGE / PARA

PHASE III (Cont'd)

INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:

Hipjoint Music Group                             2046 /13152

Shiloh Schramm                                   2053 /13187

Community Radio Fund /                           2064 /13248

  Fonds canadien de la radio communautaire

The Amber Affair                                 2077 /13338

CIRPA                                            2091 /13414

Department of Family Medicine,                   2099 /13451

  University of Alberta

Christian Hansen                                 2116 /13569

Stew Kirkwood                                    2121 /13593

Katie Perman                                     2126 /13617

Sandro Dominelli                                 2131 /13640

PHASE IV

REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:

Rawlco Radio Ltd.                                2150 /13743

Evanov Communications Inc. (OBCI)                2151 /13749

Harvard Broadcasting Inc.                        2152 /13757

CTV Limited                                      2153 /13766

Jim Pattison Broadcast Group Limited Partnership 2159 /13795

- vi -

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

                                                 PAGE / PARA

PHASE IV (Cont'd)

REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:

John Charles Yerxa (OBCI)                        2161 /13809

Rogers Broadcasting Limited                      2165 /13831

Don Kay (OBCI)                                   2183 /13940

Aboriginal Multi-Media Society of Alberta        2189 /13974

Black Gold Broadcasting Inc. (OBCI)              2190 /13983

Frank Torres (OBCI)                              2191 /13994

Multicultural Broadcasting Corporation Inc.      2198 /14029

Guldasta Broadcasting Inc.                       2200 /14037

               Edmonton, Alberta / Edmonton (Alberta)

‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Thursday, June 5, 2008 à 0905

    L'audience débute le jeudi 5 juin 2008 à 0905

12097            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

12098            Just before we start we wanted to make an announcement that today we will break for an extended lunch hour, probably about two hours, so we are looking at around 12:30, depending on the timing of the interventions, just to give you a little advance notice.

12099            Thank you.

12100            THE SECRETARY:  Good morning.

12101            Before we begin, for the record, Aboriginal Multimedia Society of Alberta, AMSA, has filed in response to undertakings a list of the locations of all transmitter sites operated by AMSA.  This document has been added to the public record and copies are available in the public examination room.

12102            I would now call ArtStart/E4C; Slowburn, Blues Band and Harpdog Brown and the Bloodhounds to appear as a panel and present their interventions.

12103            We will start with ArtStart/E4C.  Please introduce yourself, after which you have ten minutes for your presentation.

12104            Thank you.

INTERVENTION

12105            MS KONOPAKI:  Thank you.

12106            My name is Cadence Konopaki and I have been the Program Coordinator for E4C's ArtStart program over the past year and a half.  I came to ArtStart after several years of working in the health charity field.  I loved working with organizations that promoted community development and contributed to quality of life in our society.  However, I missed the arts in my life.

12107            I grew up in a household filled with the arts, as my father was a formerly professional drummer.  He is now a visual artist at Emily Carr.  My mom is a professional actress.  Galleries, concerts, live theatre and more constantly enriched my life.  I wished I could work in a position where I was able to combine my passions for community development and the arts and luckily I found ArtStart.

12108            Thousands of children in Edmonton have no access to the arts.  We believe that every child deserves the opportunity to be exposed to and mentored in the arts.  Research shows that the arts aid social and cognitive development, as well as motivates, engages students in learning and builds competence.  These are clearly benefits that children from low income families deserve to receive as much as any other child.

12109            In fact, children and youth involved in the arts use up to 50 per cent less social, justice and health services throughout their lifetimes.  Therefore, the arts provide a proactive tool to involve children and youth in healthy individual and community development.

12110            With this in mind, ArtStart was created to provide high‑quality lessons, field trips and performance opportunities for children aged 6 to 14 who come from low income families.  We are multidisciplinary programs so our classes, field trips and performances are all within visual art, drama, dance, music and creative writing.

12111            In September 2007 we experienced a 300 per cent growth increase due to demand of parents, social service workers, teachers and others to have their children involved in healthy and enriching activities outside of school.

12112            The ArtStart goals are to reach students who are often ignored or forgotten in ways and with methods not always used to teach children to work together building healthy group identity and strong friendships, provide challenges to students at all levels and reignite their level of learning, teach students to take instruction and use it in a self‑directed manner and, last but not least, create lifelong patrons of the arts.

12113            Both myself and ArtStart as a whole are very excited to support the application of DAWG‑FM to receive licensing to create the first Blues radio station in Edmonton.

12114            First, Blues is an amazing form of music that crosses all social demographics in its fan base.  Anyone who knows anything about music loves the Blues and are clearly missing the opportunity to fully immerse themselves in the genre through radio play.

12115            Second, radio stations are becoming more and more generic.  It is hard to find a station that does not play Easy Rock, Alternative Rock or Top 40 music.  This severely limits the growth of new artists.  Without being within one of those categories, most musicians do not receive radio play.  Without radio play they will not attract as many new fans, thus limiting their success on a whole.

12116            As an individual, I strongly support the independent arts and would like to see artists have the opportunity to attract a larger fan base.

12117            As an ArtStart representative, I would like to say that the arts do not come in one form, nor are they for one demographic, nor are they created by one type of person.  By diversifying the music on the radio, DAWG‑FM will not only be promoting Blues music but independent artists and the diversity of arts and culture in our society.

12118            Last, ArtStart wants to support DAWG‑FM because they are committed to supporting us in our mission.  Through their financial support we will be using the money to support our children in the ArtStart Music Program.  These students learn drums, guitar, piano, violin, to name just a few, and this money will be used to obtain better instruments, recruit more instructors, provide food to our students who may not have adequate nutrition at home and much more.

12119            We will also be working with DAWG‑FM to hopefully create somewhat of a Blues specific focus.  This may mean providing scholarships to students to work with Blues musicians within the community or perhaps for students to attend Blues concerts.

12120            In conclusion, I would like to say that I hope the CRTC will recognize the need for this new station.  You will not only be supporting musicians and arts and culture, but also hundreds of children in Edmonton who would otherwise have no access to the arts.

12121            THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

12122            We will now proceed with Mr. Phil Wilson‑Birks from Slowburn, Blues Band.

12123            You have ten minutes for your presentation.

INTERVENTION

12124            MR. WILSON‑BIRKS:  My name is Phil.  I guess I'm here to let you know that the Blues in Edmonton is alive and doing very well.

12125            My background, I just retired about five years ago as a teacher.  I taught for 25 years and decided that it was time to really get involved in my passion and my passion was Blues.  I formed the band at that time.

12126            Today we are proud to say ‑‑ and I quoting Bruce Stovel, the late Bruce Stovel from CJSR radio ‑‑ we are proud to be the busiest and hardest working Blues band in Alberta.

12127            We perform on average over 100 shows a year, 98 per cent of which are in Alberta, probably 70 per cent of those in the Edmonton area.  We play every weekend.  That's our goal.  We love to play.

12128            When I heard about this radio station possibly coming online, a Blues radio station, myself and the rest of the band, we just about jumped for joy.  We have been waiting for something like this for a long time and I think there is a real place for it in Edmonton.

12129            There is a good, solid base of fans, as well as musicians in this community, well enough to support a radio station of this nature.

12130            We are presently in the process right now as a band of putting together our second CD for release in July.  Of course we are independently produced, putting the money up ourselves.  The problem that we have had in the past and we are still having is getting radio play.  Being a local band, trying to get your songs heard on the local airwaves, there is very little opportunity.

12131            We do have some exposure.  We have been played on other radio stations, at best very minimally because obviously we don't have 24‑hour a day Blues in this community yet.  So we are getting airplay, but once a week, twice a week.  If you are lucky to turn the radio on at a specific time in the week on a specific day, you might be fortunate enough to turn it on to a Blues program on one of the other radio stations and hear our song, but the odds are very slim.

12132            As a listener myself, I kind of view the radio as a smorgasbord.  I am always changing channels trying to find the songs that appeal to me.

12133            The Blues programs that are available in town right now are very specific in their times.  We gig every weekend, Friday, Saturday, sometimes Sunday, sometimes Monday nights, and those are when the Blues programs happen to be on so we don't even get a chance to hear.  We hear that we are played on the radio because fans come to our shows and say well, we heard you on Friday night.  They played one of your songs.  They were just fortunate enough to have the radio on that particular station at that particular time.

12134            I really believe that this radio station could be a huge success in this community.  At present we have three Blues festivals in this province.  As a band that works every weekend, live music is alive and it is out there.

12135            The genre of music, we play at clubs that feature all genres of music, all ages of music.  This music spans ages 5 years to 90 years.  It has a broad appeal and we really believe that it could be a very big success.

12136            Thank you.

12137            THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

12138            We will now proceed with Harpdog Brown and the Bloodhounds.

12139            You will have ten minutes for your presentation.

INTERVENTION

12140            MR. BROWN:  Thank you.

12141            I'm Harpdog Brown and I have been that for about 20 years now I think.  1989 is when the name was thrown upon me, so I predate Snoop Dogg and all the other dogs.

12142            I guess to start things off, I am really nervous.  You know, I don't usually have to stand ‑‑ although I'm used to looking at 20,000 people, but it's different when I'm just performing.

12143            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Don't be nervous.

12144            MR. BROWN:  Well, you know, okay.  Okay, I won't.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

12145            MR. BROWN:  I have to say, the last few nights I didn't do much sleeping either because I was racking my brain on what to say and how to say it and not to say too much, you know, like to go on and on and on, because I have been known to do so.

12146            Just a little bit of information.

12147            I am an adopted child and I think thousands of adopted ‑‑ millions of adopted children on this planet have one thing in common:  we don't really feel like we belong.  Loved by all and owned by none is kind of how I felt.

12148            You know, I was raised here in Edmonton, born in Edmonton, and although I had all this love I never really felt like I belonged anywhere.  I tell you, I got into the music business primarily because I didn't want to become another one of these people that I was seeing as robots working in welding shops.  We figured that music would be the only way to actually not have to conform to that mindless drivel of going to work and just waiting for the 20‑minute call to play some cards and then your personality goes back in your back pocket when you go back to work to grind welds.

12149            So we figured music would be the way out.  I was 18 at the time.

12150            Now, a few years later I found the Blues.  I stumbled upon the Blues and that was the first time in my life I really felt like I belonged.  I found a place that would ‑‑ undeniably a place that I belonged that would never fail me.

12151            This comes back to ‑‑ this goes into the need of Blues in the society, in the schools.  In this day and age we have so many broken families and people, adults, dropping the ball on the children, letting them down, not being there for them.

12152            Well, the Blues has never let me down.  People do, but Blues never does.  And that is why I have been really wanting to get Blues in schools and in the youth because, you see, I think it really saved my life.  It gave me something to stand up for, something to believe in and something that would not fail me.

12153            The one thing made by man that is not made to fail, that is Blues music.

12154            Music, all music from western Canada or the western world is really Blues, because Blues defined like this, somebody reporting life as they see it.  Now, when we report life as we see it, it is not always good.  But when we hear that I'm not the only one that life is picking on, that he even has it a little worse than me, then all of a sudden I don't feel like it is not so bad because the weight of the world is not on my shoulders; it is on all our shoulders.

12155            Another thing is when I get on the stage and I sing and I play harmonica and I choose the songs that I perform, it is the message.  It is not because I know you are going to like the song.  I do it because it is my therapy.  The thing is, I am very fortunate that my therapy also is therapeutic to others.

12156            So when they hear what I'm speaking or singing about, they realize that hey, we are all in this together.  That is why the Blues is the foundation of all Western music.

12157            The Blues are the baby and they called it Rock 'n Roll, said Muddy Waters, and I've got to admit that that is really the whole root of it all.

12158            I think it was Count Basie when he was asked what kind of music you listen to, he said don't you know there is only two kinds of music, good and bad.

12159            I thought about that too, yes.  Good music is the performance.  It is not the genre so much; it is the performance.  I would rather hear a good song ‑‑ or a bad song sung well as opposed to a good song sung bad, you know.

12160            So, I don't know, to me I was racking my brain all night for the last two nights, so I'm thinking, you know, this is really a no‑brainer, for me anyhow.  I understand the CRTC and all the regulations and the rules and stuff, but this is something that needs to be done.  This is something that Canada needs, that the world needs.

12161            I have known for Edmonton, Edmonton has always been on the cutting edge of arts and culture.  We are the City of Festivals.  There is no other city in Canada that has more festivals than we do.  That's fabulous.  Not just music festivals, that's comedy festivals, and so on.

12162            Our Citadel Theatre is globally known.

12163            It just makes sense and it makes me proud that we could be ‑‑ Edmonton could be the first Canadian city to actually stand up and say yes, Blues 24/7.  I think that is very positive.

12164            Now, in the music business as well, yes, I have recorded three CDs.  I have recorded in America.  I have won awards in America.  I have played from Alaska to San Francisco, all across Canada and the Pacific Northwest.  And I got into music to travel.  I love to travel.  I still live out of a suitcase.  I love it that way.

12165            But Edmonton is really my home and for me to be able to say that Edmonton is the first city ‑‑ it was the first city to have American Blues coming to Canada, or western Canada, The Ambassador Hotel two blocks away.  The King Eddy in Calgary picked up on the slack from what Edmonton was bringing up to western Canada.

12166            Edmonton has always been the starter and I think it is just a no‑brainer.  This really is what Edmonton should be doing.  Then of course all of Canada will follow suit, I'm sure.

12167            But that will also help with distribution of getting the word out, you know.  I can only play at one place at one time, but the beauty of radio, that allows you to be heard across the whole country.

12168            And I do get my airplay, you know Hogart on CBC plays me.  I was talking to a guy I was working for out on the coast driving a truck last summer and he said, you know, it's funny, I turned on the radio and I thought that sounded like you.  Then the DJ comes on and says it was Harpdog Brown.  He said well, isn't that cool.

12169            You know, he didn't know what station it was because, once again, he is on the search dial to, right.

12170            So, I don't know, all I can say is that this is really good for society.  It is good for humanity.  Blues music is a healing power and I think we really need to heal society.

12171            You know, we have problems with drugs, we have problems with all kinds of things in our social structure these days and, you know, I feel the war on drugs is a moot idea.  What we have to do is heal our society.  If we can heal humanity, we will eliminate the need to erase what we call, you know, reality, and then we can start embracing reality instead of trying to erase it by gambling or drugs or alcohol, you know.

12172            The thing is that all comes from understanding and healing.  So we have to heal ourselves and I think this is the start.

12173            Do I get more time?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

12174            THE SECRETARY:  Two minutes.

12175            MR. BROWN:  Two minutes?  See, I call my own two‑minute warning.

12176            So you know, the live industry, I mean the live music industry has really kind of, you know, been kicked in the teeth and that is all live music.

12177            Well, now we are really clamping down on drinking, all right.  Winnipeg went down to .05.  Even though .08 is the legal, well they went no, that's not good enough; they went .05.  Well, the live music in Winnipeg is really hurting because of that.

12178            The smoking bylaws are hurting the live music industry.

12179            So, you know, it is eliminating us to actually get out there and do what we do, which is spread the word of life.

12180            Now, with a 24‑hour Blues programming station, that allows us to be heard.  That's really all it is.

12181            We have churches on every block, but if you don't listen, the same thing.  If you go to school and you don't listen, you don't learn.  You have to pay attention.

12182            So here is a chance.  We have 24 hours.  People want to pay attention and learn about life and maybe heal a little bit.

12183            Thank you.

12184            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

12185            Commissioner Molnar...?

12186            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank you and welcome.  I am pleased all of you came and you are all obviously very, very passionate about what Blues can bring to Edmonton, so I understand that.

12187            I am hopeful I'm going to say your name right, Ms Konopaki.  Is that what you said?

12188            MS KONOPAKI:  Just Cadence is fine.

12189            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Cadence?

12190            MS KONOPAKI:  Yes.

12191            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.

12192            Cadence, I had initially read your letter of support that you sent in and was wondering as to how you would possibly use this to make it Blues specific.  I think you said but maybe you could just tell me again how you would propose to take this and focus it upon the Blues.

12193            MS KONOPAKI:  Yes.  Well, all the money will be directly to our music program, so some of the money will be allocated to things like new instruments, so violin.  You know, you can't guarantee that it is going to ‑‑ or guitar.  It may be used for other music.

12194            But then what we hope to do is also do some specific Blues focus within that program such as we may do workshops with Blues musicians that we otherwise wouldn't be able to work with.

12195            We also hope to take our kids ‑‑ we always take our kids on field trips and we want to take them on more always, and it would be nice to take them to some Blues concerts.

12196            Again supporting live music and the arts, we want to pay for those tickets.  So this gives us the opportunity to pay for more tickets to go to more shows.

12197            So those would be two ways that we would try to do it.

12198            But the most important thing I think is getting the musicians to work with the kids directly.  Although it may be nice to go to a concert once or twice a year, all the kids wouldn't be able to get that opportunity and the impact that comes from our instructors and from the artist is really the one‑on‑one work or the one‑on‑three or whatever it is, that work of where their passions come from and the talent and skills that they can pass on.

12199            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank you.

12200            Are there any Blues artists within the city who do work with your group today?

12201            MS KONOPAKI:  No.

12202            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  No.  Okay.  Thank you very much.

12203            I'm going to turn my questions to ‑‑ is it Mr. Wilson‑Birks or Mr. Birks?

12204            MR. WILSON‑BIRKS:  Phil would be good.

12205            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Phil.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

12206            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  And I'm just going assume it's Harpdog and not Mr. Brown.

‑‑‑ Laugher / Rires

12207            MR. BROWN:  Yes.  My friends call me Dog.

12208            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Dog?

12209            MR. BROWN:  Sure enough, yes.  Harp is my instrument, Blues harp, right.

12210            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Oh, I see.

12211            MR. BROWN:  Harmonica.

12212            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay. I'm going to open this question to both of you to try to help me understand.

12213            I understand your passion for the music and many, many of us enjoy going to Blues festivals.  What I am trying to understand, and maybe you can help me with, is the scope, the extent to which the audience ‑‑ like who is the audience?

12214            How large is the audience for Blues here in Edmonton?

12215            MR. BROWN:  Here in Edmonton or globally?  Because you know I find ‑‑

12216            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Well, let's talk about Edmonton ‑‑

12217            MR. BROWN:  Okay.

12218            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR: ‑‑ because that is of course where we are looking to bring in this 24/7 station.

12219            MR. BROWN:  Yes, sure.  No doubt.  No doubt.

12220            If you have been to any festivals you will see even in the Folk Festival there is Blues arts, you know, Blues artists there.

12221            All festivals that I have ever played have children as well as adults, you know, children of all ages.  So I have found that there really is ‑‑ the requirements to love Blues is have one good ear and a little bit of heart.

12222            So children of all ages really stand up and take note and be touched by and moved by the Blues.

12223            You can play restaurants.  I mean we both talked about this, a little joint on White Avenue called Murireta's, a great little restaurant, and they have Blues bands on Fridays and Saturday nights.  The beauty there is ‑‑ I have an 11‑year‑old son and opportunity, restaurant, no smoking, he comes in on a Friday or Saturday, you know, to watch dad work.

12224            But I have seen babies, you know like actual babies in little carry‑in cases, you know, that are sitting on the floor in their little carriers, right.

12225            So children of all ages, big and old, you know, young and old, really do find a draw to the honesty and the truth of what Blues is.

12226            See, that's the thing, is it is really ‑‑ it is all about honesty and truth and we are all drawn to that.

12227            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Phil, you have said that you have operated here, you work every weekend, 25 years and now you are doing this fulltime, I understand.

12228            MR. WILSON‑BIRKS:  Yes.

12229            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Do you have loyal listeners?  Do you have people that follow you or are you playing to new audiences every time?

12230            MR. WILSON‑BIRKS:  I would have to say both, hopefully picking up new fans everywhere we do play.  And I think everywhere we play we do pick up new fans.

12231            But my experience ‑‑ and I can only speak for the last five years in this particular band that I'm in right now ‑‑ I think we are about 450 shows, so every weekend and then some in midweek.  So we play everywhere.

12232            We see people of all ages.  We don't play just Blues clubs because really there aren't that many Blues specific clubs.  It is hard to support live music to have music seven nights a week in any genre of music.

12233            But I can tell you that we see ages, like I said before, young kids to older people.  We play festivals and it doesn't matter what the age is. Just the love of the music, what it does to you, what it makes you feel, how it gets you moving.

12234            I don't think you can say that about every genre of music over all those age ranges.

12235            But we do have a following, people do follow us around.  Of course, we can't expect people to come to every gig that we play every weekend.  That would be a big much.  Even my family has quit doing that after 400 shows.  We will see them once every little while.

12236            The radio station really is a bonus in that it gets your music out to that audience on a larger scale.

12237            We have had radio play locally and it is a thrill when somebody comes to the show and they have had the fortunate happenstance to be listening to the radio at a specific time in the week where your song came on.

12238            I have only experienced that once myself, driving home and turn it on and here Slowburn comes on and it is just the biggest thrill you can imagine, but I think it should happen more than that.

12239            This is a great band that we have going here.  This is music that should be heard by a lot of people, but it is just not getting out to as many.  You know, every weekend a few people is fine, but the potential for a radio station to draw people to your shows, which in turn sells your CDs, and the more CDs you sell the more chance as a local band struggling to make it, the more chance you will sign a record deal.

12240            At this present time we are selling our CDs but basically at the gigs that we play at and anywhere we can.  It is hard to get a record deal based on that kind of sales.

12241            Throw in the mix of the radio play and that just opens up a whole new world of possibilities.

12242            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  I just have one more question.

12243            Once again I will let you both have an opportunity, but it sounds like you have been in the situation.  You worked 25 years and now have the pleasure of dedicating yourself to your music.

12244            It sounds, Harpdog, that you have had the opportunity to have music your career.

12245            MR. BROWN:  Oh, yes.

12246            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Is that right?

12247            MR. BROWN:  Yes.  I mean I have  dabbled in a lot of other angles.  I have driven truck, I have welded, I have done a lot of things, but I have only committed to ‑‑ you know, in the course of the 28 years I have been in this racket, I have really consciously tried to get away from the Blues and the life and stuff, you know.

12248            For the love of a woman when I was younger and I thought I didn't really need Blues.  Well, it turned out I did.

12249            When I became a father I consciously took 10 years off.  You know, he is 11 now so I'm kind of getting back in the swing of things again.

12250            But yes, it was a conscious effort of ‑‑ well, it's a life, right, and in order to live it you have to actually put all your eggs in one basket and go for it.  Now, luckily I was born this gypsy, never really belonged anywhere, so I'm comfortable living out of a suitcase and from motel to motel in town to town.

12251            So you know, it worked for me and it still works for me.  I'm still planning on global domination, you know, but that is going to help.  The radio station and stuff like this will help that.

12252            I have sold a lot of CDs, thousands of CDs.  You know, I have won awards in America.  I was up for Juno in 95 with an American release.  I signed ‑‑ a little label in Portland, Oregon, signed me.  I was the first Canadian to play their 20,000 seated festival for two years, 1992 and 1994.

12253            So I have had a lot of opportunity and I have really done a lot of ‑‑ I have a lot of fan base and it seems to be getting bigger and bigger all the time.  As there is Internet and everything, the world is getting smaller.

12254            You know, I almost gave up on this ‑‑ six years ago I was getting tired, I was like man, I can't even get arrested in this town but I will get a gig, you know.  But then I ask myself, well, I'm treating the three main people in this city who are booking live entertainment the same way as I treat everybody in Ontario or British Columbia and America.  So I thought okay, it's not me, it's them.

12255            Now, I was going to just hang her up, you know, and say well, I'm 40 years old back then and maybe I should look at another career.

12256            And then the Internet came into my hands and Napster came into my hands.  My first download ‑‑ my first search on Napster was Harpdog Brown.  Lo and behold, I found me.  My first download was a song I wrote.

12257            My first Internet conversation was with a guy down in San Diego that I was taking my songs out of his hard drive, and then he told me, man, I know fans of yours all around the globe.

12258            So that actually saved my ‑‑ he changed my whole perspective.  I said well, maybe I shouldn't give up yet.  Maybe life was just beginning, you know.  Maybe there is more out there.  Maybe just because I ‑‑ because at that time I felt like I couldn't get arrested in this city, well, everybody else wanted me.  So with the world, it's my oyster, right.

12259            So it's a matter of just keep on keeping on.

12260            The fact of the matter is we are only here to do what we are here to do, right.  If you are here to spread the word, if you are a teacher, well than you have to have somebody to listen to your thoughts, right.  And I kind of feel that in actual fact it is a teaching experience.  Being on the stage, choosing what works and what messages you lay out to the people is really all what it is ‑‑ that's what it's all about.

12261            So that is why I have people coming to hear me.  It is not because I play the songs that they want to hear, because they don't know they want to hear them until they hear them.  It takes somebody to kind of cut it out a little bit differently and say, no, no, no, yeah, you heard that before.  Let me give you something you haven't heard.

12262            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank you.  I just wondered which of your models is the more frequent, if you will, or the most usual model for a Blues musician here in the local community, somebody who has to work fulltime and do it once they are financially secure or is it that you can make a lifestyle playing Blues here in the west?

12263            MR. WILSON‑BIRKS:  From my perspective ‑‑

12264            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Or is it just both?

12265            MR. WILSON‑BIRKS:  Yes, it is both.  For the 25 years as a teacher the music was always there, just not as often.

12266            At some point in your life ‑‑ I loved doing the teaching experience, this whole concept of bringing Blues into the schools, that is my ultimate fantasy.  Sign up Slowburn for that, you know.  To be able to go into the schools and bring the Blues into the schools, back as a teacher that way, that would be just unbelievable.

12267            But I was always performing but not quite as often and now the opportunity ‑‑ my kids are grown up and to be able to do that.  I would say at this point I am probably making half my living at playing and performing every weekend, but I would have to say it is a real mix of musicians out there.  A lot of musicians, just like actors or any of the arts professions, you need a day job to supplement because you don't have the record deals, you're not getting the play.

12268            I think that kind of thing would open up a lot of people's possibilities with the advent of a radio station that can promote your music, not only in one station in Edmonton, but the possibility in other provinces, in sister stations, you know, spreading the word across the country and getting out that way.

12269            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  I would like the thank you all for coming.  Those are my questions and thank you again for coming here today.

12270            MR. BROWN:  It is a pleasure.

12271            MR. WILSON‑BIRKS:  Thank you very much.

12272            THE CHAIRPERSON:  I will just add to the thanks.  It is a pleasure to meet the three of you.  You certainly have added some insight into our deliberations and we appreciate it.

12273            Thank you very much.

12274            MR. BROWN:  Thank you.

12275            MR. WILSON‑BIRKS:  You're welcome.

12276            THE SECRETARY:  I now recall the Community Radio for Beaumont to come forward to the presentation table.

‑‑‑ Pause

12277            THE SECRETARY:  It appears that Community Radio for Beaumont is not in the room so we will now proceed with the next one.

12278            I would now call Barrypatch Records, Sarah Pocklington and Nestor Pistor Productions Ltd. to come to the presentation table to appear as a panel and present their interventions.

‑‑‑ Pause

12279            THE SECRETARY:  We will start with Barrypatch Records.

12280            Please introduce yourselves and you will have ten minutes for your presentation.

INTERVENTION

12281            MR. POWIS:  Thank you.

12282            My name is Barry Powis.  I own and operate a small independent record label in Edmonton.

12283            First of all I want to thank you for the opportunity to speak before you.

12284            How I got into the music industry, by the way, is first of all I am a music fan.  When I moved here from Calgary in 1990 I would hang out at all the local venues and be continually blown away by the bands that I would see.  I mean, I had not seen talent like this anywhere.

12285            When I would see a band that would blow me away, on the Monday or the Tuesday after I had recovered I would call the radio station and ask about this band, where I can find more music and why I'm not hearing them on the radio.

12286            One example I can tell you is I saw a band called The Rockin' Highliners at the Sidetrack Cafe.  I called the radio station asking where I can get music from these guys.  They didn't know who they were and I thought there is something wrong here.  This is a Juno nominated band and the radio station for that genre did not know who they were.

12287            So I kind of realized that there was something wrong in the industry.

12288            Excuse me, I am a little nervous here.  I'm not used to public speaking.

12289            Some of the other bands that I would see ‑‑ this was before the Internet was around so I couldn't research them afterwards ‑‑ I would call the radio stations to try to find again where to find them.  They didn't know.  I would go to the record stores.  They didn't know.

12290            One particular band I saw, it was at the Sidetrack, I was just so impressed with them.  They were so original, so dynamic, so energetic that I thought, you know what, there is such a problem in this industry and I want other people to hear this band.  So I formed the record company.

12291            When I did that, I took a course at Grant MacEwan, Record Label Management.  I spoke to a number of friends in the industry, and I thought I did everything right.  I brought the band into Homestead Recorders with Barry Allen, you know, may as well get the best ear in the industry to work on him, and we did everything right.

12292            We sent our 200 copies across Canada to all radio stations and we just couldn't get played.

12293            The reason why we couldn't get played is that couldn't be pigeonholed.  We were different.  We didn't sound like every other band on the radio.

12294            So other bands would come up and ask me, you know, how can I get on your label and can you do anything for me?  The only advice I could give them is, if you want to make it in this genre in Edmonton, either change your genre or move away, because you are not going to get played here.

12295            So when I heard that The Planet 107 with Don Kay was applying for a licence, I thought this is finally the opportunity we have been looking for.

12296            In doing some research I found out what they are doing to the industry as far as giving back, i.e. money to the Edmonton Folk Festival, the various schools, you know, just supporting the various genres out there.  There is so much good music out there that is falling through the cracks and no one is playing it because, again, the band doesn't sound like somebody or ‑‑ I don't know what the cases.

12297            I saw the band The Smalls in Edmonton quite a while ago and this band again, I was completely blown away by them.  The lead guy, Corb Lund, in order to get heard, had to change his genre to get his music heard.

12298            There is just again something wrong with the industry in Edmonton if this kind of talent has to go away from its roots to get heard.  I don't get it.

12299            So anyway, as you can tell, I am very frustrated with the radio in Edmonton.

12300            My band has, you know, they are a Rock band with bagpipes, not your normal thing.  Out of the 200 copies we sent to radio across Canada, we have been played on an AM Country station here in Edmonton, we have been played on CKUA in Edmonton and we have been played in Colorado, if you can believe it, and satellite radio.

12301            We can't get played on the radio stations that are close, the closest match to our genre.  I don't think it is for lack of talent.  The people I talk to in the industry just love the band.

12302            We now have five albums out that nobody will hear unless the check out or website and again, my advice to them now is rather than put a new album out, either change your genre or move away because, you know, if you don't sound like somebody else, you are not going to get played.

12303            So anyway, because of this and for all the other bands out there that continually blow me away in these live venues that will never be heard, I really ask you to consider strongly the application by Don Kay and The Planet 107.

12304            Thank you.

12305            THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

12306            We will now proceed with Sarah Pocklington.  You have ten minutes for your presentation.

INTERVENTION

12307            MS POCKLINGTON:  Thank you.  I am really delighted to have the opportunity to be here.

12308            As you have mentioned, my name is Sarah Pocklington, no relation, for anybody who is a hockey fan.

12309            I have spent the majority of my life living in Edmonton but I've had the good fortune not only to live in various cities across Canada but also internationally.

12310            I am a graduate of the Vocal Performance Program at Grant MacEwan.  I have taken courses on percussion, theatre and dance and I have been singing professionally since I was 15 years old.

12311            I guess I like school.  I have an Honours B.A., a Masters in Native Studies and I'm currently working on my Ph.D. focusing on Contemporary Aboriginal Music in Canada.

12312            I have been teaching at the post secondary level for almost 20 years, most of that as an Adjunct Professor for the Faculty of Native Studies at the University of Alberta.

12313            I have co‑developed what I have been told by the University is the first course offered by a Canadian university on contemporary aboriginal music.

12314            I am Cree‑Métis and actually had ‑‑ when I first met Don, I would say that was several weeks ago, I found out that Don is also Métis and I think that stands Don in good stead.  He obviously knows a lot about his heritage, which makes him a person that really understands the needs of community and what community is about.

12315            I am also a member of the aboriginal women's trio Asani, and Asani in the Cree language means rock.

12316            Our music is really distinct.  We carry with us the traditional influences of First Nations and Métis music accompanied by drums and rattles, and more recently World Beat rhythms, and we combined that with our own blend of traditional vocals infused with the sounds of Jazz, Folk and Blues.  We also sing a high percentage of our songs in indigenous languages, predominantly Cree.

12317            Asani's debut CD Rattle and Drum ‑‑ and yes, it is a play on U2's Rattle and Hum ‑‑ was released in 2005.

12318            The thing I found very interesting about this was we had a lot of people asking us to make a CD and we really didn't know very much about that.  We ended up receiving a $3,000 grant from the Alberta Foundation from the Arts and that is what we used to make our CD.  That is all the money we had.

12319            We ended up recording our CD in one day live from the floor at Convocation Hall at the University of Alberta.  I had the help of a terrific producer and an engineer who believed in us enough to help us.

12320            I have to say, initially to our dismay and great delight, this CD has been nominated for 11 music awards across North America, including a 2006 Juno for best aboriginal recording of the year.

12321            We were the recipients of the Canadian Aboriginal Music Award for best female traditional cultural roots album of 2005.

12322            We are currently in the process of recording our second CD and ‑‑ and this has been mentioned several times here ‑‑ we are in a position where we are struggling to complete this CD because of lack of funds.

12323            However, we are very fortunate to be working with Barry Allen from Homestead Recorders, who has been mentioned here and has also presented.  I have to say that everybody knows that Barry is a renowned producer‑engineer.  He has received many, many awards.  But what is astounding about Barry is his passion and support for aboriginal and Alberta artists and, I have to say, he has an incredible ear.

12324            So Asani, like so many artists, especially those who are working in the area of specialized music, is trying to find funding for our CD.  Our music is so different that I think it often falls between the cracks even within funding institutions.

12325            Asani has performed at Carnegie Hall in New York City, the Kennedy Center, as well as the Smithsonian Folk Life Festival in Washington, D.C., Talent du Sud at Medan, France.

12326            We have performed at festivals across Canada, U.S., Finland, Africa.  We composed the music for the opening section of the opening ceremonies of the World Champions in Athletics in Edmonton in 2001, and we have been featured artists at Canada Day celebrations in both Montréal and on Parliament Hill where we have our own version of O Canada that has gotten really strong support.  We sing that in three languages, including Cree.

12327            We also received the prestigious Fleck Fellowship from the Banff Centre in 2003.

12328            I have to say it can be very discouraging.  Asani has never been invited to perform at any major festival in Edmonton or in Alberta.

12329            Edmonton needs a radio station that will play music by Edmonton, Alberta and Canadian artists whose music doesn't fit the format of many of the other commercial radio stations out there.

12330            As has been mentioned, there are many great musicians and bands around Edmonton and other parts of the province that fall through the cracks.  Even if their music is fabulous, it isn't heard on the air.  Obviously, if artists' music isn't heard they don't get offered those opportunities that are out there to perform at amazing venues.  They struggle.

12331            So not only are the artists missing out, but the public is missing out, too, because the public is not having access to this great music.

12332            The Planet's commitment to playing diverse music styles means there is a greater variety of artists that will have their music played and I think that is hugely important, especially for groups that are like Asani.

12333            The Planet and Don Kay have made a commitment to highlight the music of these artists on their station.  That is a huge bonus for this city and for the artists.

12334            But further to this, I have to say I didn't know Don Kay prior to three weeks ago and the fact that Don Kay took it upon himself to find an artist like myself who creates and performs this specialized music, and I also happen to be Cree‑Métis, and then offer me the opportunity to speak here to you today really highlights his and The Planet's commitment to actually follow through with their mandate to include these diverse music styles and this greater variety of artists in their programming.

12335            The fact that The Planet would be actually located in Edmonton and operated by people who live here rather than 1,000 miles away, how can you beat that?  It gives a voice to Edmontonians.  It celebrates all that Edmonton is.

12336            It offers a real and meaningful way to support the vibrant music and the arts scene, as well as the artists in and around Edmonton, Alberta, a place where local artists' music is not just played on the air, but where we have the opportunity to get to know, in a real sense, the people who are operating the station, a place where our music, our voices and our opinions can be heard not just through a telephone call, but through real relationships with real people that have the opportunity and the authority to make decisions about how this station operates.

12337            The fact that the decisions are made right here in Edmonton, that there is no checking with the head office some place in the eastern part of Canada is a powerful thing.

12338            Under these circumstances there is a strong likelihood that the decisions that are made by this radio station will be made in favour of what is in the interests of Edmonton and Alberta and the artists that live here.  I think that is hugely important.

12339            The Planet's commitment to Alberta's independent artists is backed up with meaningful financial support, festivals, special programs, sessions that offer emerging artists information required to build their music career, beginning on how to access funds through institutions like FACTOR.

12340            This program that they would have where artists can compete for $10,000 at the beginning of their music career to make CDs and then have that ramped up for three different artists or groups so that they have enough money not just to make the CD, but to actually do promotion and marketing, that is where independent artists really struggle.

12341            So from my perspective that is just huge.

12342            On a personal note, I have to say that Don and I have had several discussions about The Planet's commitments to get involved with musicians here and help them make things happen.  I can't say enough, quite honestly, about how I am so impressed with his passion, his dedication and his ability to pull together the team that you saw present a few days ago.

12343            That speaks a great deal about his character, his knowledge and his track record, in my opinion.

12344            I hope that you will support The Planet's application.  I think that The Planet will become so much more than just a radio station.  I think that The Planet can become a viable component of the fabric of what makes Edmonton and Alberta a great place to be.

12345            Thank you.

12346            THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

12347            We will now precede with Nestor Pistor Productions Ltd.

12348            Please introduce yourself, after which you will have ten minutes to make your presentation.

INTERVENTION

12349            MR. AST:  Good morning and welcome to Alberta.  My name is Don Ast.  I am also known as Nestor Pistor.

12350            I sit on ACTRA's board as the national representative for Alberta.  I have five Juno nominations, five gold records, two platinum records and this all didn't happen by circumstance.

12351            When I first put out the record of Winestone Plowboy ‑‑ which is a parody on Rhinestone Cowboy ‑‑ we needed a vehicle.  The vehicle naturally was radio.  I am going back a few years now when radio was really radio, when radio gave the personalities or the DJs on the air licence to communicate with people.

12352            This doesn't happen any more.  They are tightly scripted and it has just taken the personage out of radio.  But I did get airplay.

12353            I did get airplay and when my third record came out January 6th, 1976 there was an unprecedented sale of 78,000 albums on the first day of release.  This was because radio gave me the opportunity of going on the air, talking to DJs, having fun and letting people know who you are, what you are.

12354            It was a marvellous trip, and it still is in certain circumstances, because there are still radio stations that will say, "Oh, Nestor is in town.  Let's give him a call and see if we can get him on the air."

12355            That's a plus to any artist, because once they know you are in town the phones start ringing at the venues that you are in and all of a sudden you have SOR on your door.  But without that, you don't get that opportunity to do so.  You don't get the opportunity of reaching people and having them hear you.

12356            Radio is a communication device and I don't know how many people in the world sit at home alone and the only people that they can talk to or talk with is the guy on the radio.  I do it myself.  I do it myself.

12357            It is a communication device and with what Planet has in mind it is going to give every artist of every genre a chance to be heard, to be played, and to make something of themselves.

12358            It has to happen.  It is a commitment made.  And knowing Don, and being on his radio stations where he welcomed every artist with open arms to sit down and talk for almost as long as they wanted to, I know that his resolve is going to hold through right up until the end.

12359            But I have to say something as my alter ego, Nestor Pistor.

12360            Now Nestor is an old country guy that speaks with a dialect.  I don't know if you people are familiar with Nestor Pistor or if you have ever heard of Nestor Pistor, but there are two languages that Nestor Pistor speaks at home.  One is English and one is broken English.

12361            So I am going to relate to you a story about my uncle Tom Pratchuk(ph) who was live over here to Harry Hill, Alberta.  It is very true.

12362            One day he was kind of puttering around the yard, you know, feeding the chickens, throwing the horse over the fence some hay.  Pretty soon a guy drive up in a nice automobile and say, "You Tom Pratchuk?"  He say, "Yeah, that's me."  He say, "You live in Rural Route 3, Harry Hill?"  "Yes, that's me, Rural Route 3."  He says, "Well, listen, I got to do something over here to your land.  I'm a Commissioner, you know.  I want to go around your land because I have to find what water levels are and what everything is about, and I need access to every place of your entire farm."  He said, "Mister, you go do whatever you want, but whatever you do, whatever you do, don't go to that field over there."  He said, "And why can't I go there?  I'm Commissioner.  You see this piece of paper here?"  He say, "Yes."  He say, "Well, that's licence.  That's licence give me every opportunity to go where I want to go, to do what I want to do and to see everything and you can't stop me.  You understand that?"  He says, "Sure, but I got to say, please, be my guest, go wherever the hell you want.  You know, what can I say.  You got the licence.  You do whatever you want."

12363            So that Commissioner, the first thing he go to that field.  Oh‑oh.  Now my uncle, he putter around, do some raking, water the plants.  All of a sudden he hears, "Help me!  Help me!  Please, Tom, help me!"  He looked and he ran to the field and there is this Commissioner running as fast as he can and uncle big bull with horns like that chasing him.  Every step he take, every step that bull get closer.  He says, "Help me!  Please help me!  This bull is going to kill me."  My uncle look at him and he say, "Ha, you smart in the pants Commissioner, show him your licence."

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

12364            MR. AST:  Well, kind of a two‑way street here because when you people hear all the wonderful things The Planet has for all the great artists, Alberta artists, Edmonton artists, what they could do for them, they need one thing.  They need you to give them that licence because without that licence, none of this great stuff is going to happen.

12365            So I ask you humbly and with respect, please, Edmonton needs the station.  Give them that licence.

12366            Thank you.

12367            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  (Off microphone)

12368            THE CHAIRPERSON:  You should at least use your microphone.

12369            Commissioner Molnar...?

12370            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank you.  I'm a bit afraid.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

12371            MR. AST:  Don't be afraid, I don't bite.

12372            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  No.  I will tell you that my parents were very big fans of yours and there were many times they were laughing about Nestor Pistor.

12373            And I come from a farm, so you are not going to catch me in a field without looking for a bull.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

12374            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  I understand you have had a long experience with ‑‑ I'm sorry, now I have lost his name with this ‑‑ with Mr. Kay, and that it has been a very positive experience, but you are an established artist and I wonder if you can tell me, is this something that is truly unique?

12375            There is a lot of radio available across Canada and even here in Edmonton.  You come here representing Mr. Kay specifically, and I wondered if there was something specific that you have found through your relationship with him, through your experience with him, that is in fact unique?

12376            MR. AST:  Yes, I do, Candice.  It's his openness and willingness and unselfishness to artists.  He is not a man that says we have a radio station here and we have a formula or we have a format that we have to follow, and if we don't follow it to the precise thing it is going to kind of throw everything up in the air.

12377            That is neither here nor there with Don.

12378            Ever since I have known him, ever since he has been a manager of many radio stations and you walk in there or he tries to get a hold of you, he is a gentleman that you don't have to really attempt to contact.  He is a gentleman that attempts to contact you if he knows that you are in town, if he knows that you are in a venue.

12379            This speaks well of him because this gives me the knowledge within myself that this man is not going to shirk on what he says he is going to do.

12380            I think it is a true commitment, I think it is a noble commitment and I know for a fact that he will follow through with everything that he says he is going to do.  That is a big plus for Edmonton and Alberta.

12381            I hope that's what you wanted to hear.

12382            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Yes, thank you.  And thank you for coming here today.

12383            MR. AST:  It's my pleasure.  Thank you.

12384            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  I would like the ask Mr. Powis ‑‑ if that is correct ‑‑ you are talking about your Alternative band and I guess being frustrated with the inability to get on existing stations.

12385            Are you speaking particularly of Edmonton?

12386            MR. POWIS:  Yes, pretty much.  We did send packages Canada‑wide, but I am speaking specifically about Edmonton.

12387            I think the problem is that it seems like radio stations' programming is all done out of eastern Canada and therefore the Edmonton stations just don't know what is here and what they have.

12388            Yes, so I was speaking specifically Edmonton.

12389            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Let me ask about when you are with this band, one of the other things I wondered is, there are a number ‑‑ and we have heard through this week our applicants come forward with a number of different packages to support Canadian Talent Development, Canadian Content Development, and one of the established funds that are available is called FACTOR.

12390            Is that something that you ‑‑

12391            MR. POWIS:  That we have applied for?

12392            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Yes, would have applied for?

12393            MR. POWIS:  Yes.  Yes, we did apply for the last album with FACTOR.  We actually achieved an Alberta Foundation for the Arts grant for the last album.

12394            We applied for the last two and got the last one.  FACTOR, we applied for both and were turned down on both.

12395            I think it wasn't ‑‑ they're musicians.  They don't really know how to fill out the application properly and I think we learned from our mistakes.  I think if we were to apply to FACTOR again for a grant, I think we would get it.

12396            I guess the point I'm trying to make is I think we were turned down because our application wasn't strong, not because the music wasn't strong.

12397            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.  Fair enough, because we have heard that there is not a lot of Albertan, frankly western ‑‑ I am from Saskatchewan and it is the same; that the artists are not getting a significant amount of the money out of FACTOR.  It is not landing was artists within these prairie western provinces and have had discussions that it is not ‑‑ you know, it is not the organization.  It is just how do the artists know about it and how are they able to successfully, as you mentioned here, even fill out the forms to get access to those sorts of funds?

12398            MR. POWIS:  Right.  I think that is all improving now.  There are instructions on the Internet now and there are people who will coach bands on how to fill them out correctly.

12399            I think the bottom line is I don't think the bands out there are looking for any handouts.  They just need to be heard.  You can throw as much money as you want at our band.  It doesn't matter.  They just want people to hear them.

12400            They want to make it on their own merits and their own laurels.  They are not looking for handouts.

12401            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Yes.  Fair enough.

12402            Thank you and thank you for coming here today.

12403            MR. POWIS:  Thank you.

12404            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Ms Pocklington, you have really given us some compelling reasons to listen.  Obviously you are passionate about this and your band sounds truly ‑‑ it is kind of an interesting story to hear how successful you have become and yet, as you say, somehow falling through the cracks here in Edmonton and perhaps across Canada to some extent.

12405            MS POCKLINGTON:  Yes.

12406            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  You, too, mentioned FACTOR.  Is that something that has been available to your band?

12407            MS POCKLINGTON:  We have applied for FACTOR.  We have never received a FACTOR grant and we do know how to fill out grants.

12408            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  I can't imagine you can't fill out the form.

12409            MS POCKLINGTON:  No, we know how to fill out the grants.  We have received ‑‑ for the CD that we are working on now we received a Canada Council grant as well as an Alberta Foundation For the Arts grant,

12410            But the Alberta Foundation for the Arts grant ‑‑ and I mean we understand this is the way things go.  But the Alberta Foundation for the Arts grant was very small.

12411            In fact, I have sat on several juries and it was very interesting to me that the grant that we received from Alberta Foundation for the Arts was less than 50 per cent of what we asked for, which is very rare.

12412            So I will leave that with you.

12413            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Yes.

12414            Just following up on what Mr. Powis said, "it is not the money, we are not looking for handouts, we are looking for airplay", would that be what you feel would be most effective to help your music as well?

12415            MS POCKLINGTON:  Absolutely.

12416            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Is it the airplay that is in need?

12417            MS POCKLINGTON:  No.  It's absolutely airplay and I will say this.  We have had just extraordinary situations where people are like okay, you know, whoever, who are these women?  And then we perform and we have had so many people say, "Oh my God, this music is fabulous.  You know, where do we find you?  We have never heard you anywhere.  Why aren't we hearing you?"

12418            So yes, I think that airplay for Asani would be huge.

12419            We are played occasionally on CBC and occasionally on CKUA.  I have never heard Asani played on any other radio station.

12420            If what people are telling us everywhere we go ‑‑ so it is not just across Canada but other places ‑‑ if what people are telling us is true, then people are interested in our music.  They just need to hear it to know that we exist.

12421            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Yes.

12422            Well, thank you very much.  As I said, you were very eloquent and very passionate as you brought it forward.  So thank you for coming in, all of you for coming.

12423            Those are my questions.

12424            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Just two quick questions.

12425            Mr. Powis, I may have missed your comment there and I'm just wondering, you said that the reason you didn't get the money from FACTOR was more related to your application than the quality of the music.

12426            I'm just wondering what that was, because I did ask yesterday one of the applicants if it was an involved process to apply to FACTOR and I understood it was not.

12427            MR. POWIS:  Our first application was two pages long, and I spoke to another band that had received a grant and they showed me their application and it was 45 pages long.

12428            There seemed to be a little bit of a problem there filling out the application.

12429            THE CHAIRPERSON:  I thought it was a form.  It's not a form then?

12430            MR. POWIS:  Well, you have to make a lot of attachments.

12431            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, I see.

12432            MR. POWIS:  Basically what we found out later, you can't just say you are going to send it out to 200 radio stations in Canada.  You have to provide addresses and a contact person to every radio station.

12433            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, I see.

12434            MR. POWIS:  Basically making it your marketing plan.  We found out after the fact.

12435            THE CHAIRPERSON:  So once you learned that, did you apply again and still not successful?

12436            MR. POWIS:  No, but we will for our next album.

12437            By the way, one thing I didn't mention is our newest album, we have actually changed our genre a little bit.  We have made it much more commercial, radio friendly, again just to get it heard on the radio.

12438            I don't necessarily like that idea, going away from your roots, but again, that is the state of the industry here.

12439            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you play in the band or are you ‑‑

12440            MR. POWIS:  No.

12441            THE CHAIRPERSON:  You represent them.

12442            MR. POWIS:  No, just a fan that has lost an awful lot of money.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

12443            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms Pocklington, I just wanted to know how you spell Asani, because I is soon you have a website.

12444            MS POCKLINGTON:  We do have a website.

12445            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you?  How do you spell that?

12446            MS POCKLINGTON:  I am delighted that you want to look.

12447            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

12448            MS POCKLINGTON:  It is A‑S, as in Sarah, A‑N‑I.

12449            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  It is a good thing I asked.  Thank you.

12450            I was just curious, do you have a video?  Would I see you on APTN, for example?

12451            MS POCKLINGTON:  Yes.  We are on APTN probably quite a bit, yes.

12452            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  I will watch for you.

12453            Thank you.

12454            MS POCKLINGTON:  Thank you.

12455            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you all for your comments.  We appreciate you coming.  Thanks very much.

12456            THE SECRETARY:  I would now call CKUA Radio Network to come forward to the presentation table.

‑‑‑ Pause

12457            THE SECRETARY:  Please introduce yourself.  You will then have ten minutes to make your presentation.

12458            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Excuse me, if I could.  There seems to be something wrong with the copies we have.  We are not starting with paragraph 1 or is that paragraph removed?

12459            Are we supposed to start at 8?

‑‑‑ Pause

12460            THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, it's not there actually.

12461            MR. REGAN:  My apologies.  That's the photocopier.

12462            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Maybe what we could do ‑‑ is it possible to fix that?  We could just take a break now and then we will start again in about 20 minutes.

12463            MR. REGAN:  Sure.

12464            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Would that be all right?  Would that give you enough time?

‑‑‑ Off record discussion / Discussion officieuse

12465            THE CHAIRPERSON:  So that would make it 10:40.

12466            Thanks very much.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1015 / Suspension à 1015

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1045 / Reprise à 1045

12467            THE SECRETARY:  Please be seated.  We will now resume.

12468            We will resume with the presentation by CKUA Radio Network.  Please introduce yourself and you will then have ten minutes to make your presentation.

INTERVENTION

12469            MR. REGAN:  Thank you very much.

12470            My name is Ken Regan.  I am the General Manager at the CKUA Radio Network.  I apologize for the disruption.  It is one of the reasons why I am protective of CKUA.  We need more money so that we can afford a photocopier, a better photocopier.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

12471            MR. REGAN:  Madam Chair and Commissioners, thank you for the opportunity to speak to these important deliberations.

12472            Appreciating that my time is limited I would like, for the record, to provide a bit of history about CKUA, some background.

12473            CKUA is one of this country's great broadcasting institutions and pioneers.  Founded in 1927 at the University of Alberta, CKUA was created for the express purpose of using the medium of radio to serve the community.

12474            One of the things I am most proud of today is that after 80 years of history, CKUA remains true to that founding principle.

12475            Over its 80‑year history, CKUA has established many firsts for Canadian radio:  Canada's first educational broadcaster; Canada's first public broadcaster, predating the CBC by almost a decade.  CKUA was also the first radio station in the British Commonwealth to broadcast as a public service the proceedings of a Legislative Assembly.  In 1995‑96 CKUA was the first radio station in Canada to stream its signal via the Internet while the Internet was in its infancy.

12476            Following the deadly Edmonton tornado of 1987, it was CKUA engineers who, with the encouragement and support from the Alberta government, developed and today continue to maintain as a public service Alberta's Emergency Public Warning System.  It is the only province‑wide public alerting system in Canada, and it is a system considered by jurisdictions worldwide to be one of the finest anywhere.

12477            Today CKUA broadcasts via a network of one AM and 16 FM transmitters which cover 95 per cent of Alberta's populated regions from Fort McMurray and the Peace country in the north to Lethbridge and Medicine Hat in the south, from Banff, Canmore, Valley in the west to Lloydminster in the east.

12478            CKUA's product consists of some of the most eclectic, intelligent and informed Alternative music programming to be found anywhere.  It is made up of Jazz, Blues, Classical, Country, Celtic, Contemporary, Folk, Roots, R&B and World Music and, I am proud to say, including the music of fantastic musicians like Harpdog Brown and Asani.

12479            I think, if I may suggest, during the course of your deliberations when you have heard oblique references from artists about getting some airplay on radio in Alberta, that more often than not they are probably speaking of CKUA, perhaps Campus Radio, but more than likely they are talking about CKUA.

12480            It is what we do.  Support for local, regional and Canadian artists is our chosen mandate.

12481            This music programming is backed up by immensely dedicated, knowledgeable and experienced programmers, many of whom are accomplished or professional musicians themselves, and by one of the largest most diverse music collections in North America, consisting of more than 1.5 million selections.

12482            I think this number is particularly relevant, given that when you consider that the Encyclopedia of Life, which is an internationally recognized online repository of information on every known species on the planet, has 1.8 million entries.

12483            The CKUA music library is a national treasure and I think if you ask any working musician who knows about it, they will tell you that visiting this collection is akin to completing a pilgrimage.

12484            But CKUA is about much more than music.  It is also a place where listeners can hear outstanding information programs.  I will just mention a few.

12485            Inspiring Leadership, a series produced in conjunction with the acclaimed Leadership Development Program of The Banff Center, which examines the essence of leadership and its relevance, increasing relevance, in society.

12486            Similarly, an earlier series entitled The Folkways Collection, which told the story of Moses Asch, the founder of Folkways Records, and which was produced in collaboration with the prestigious Smithsonian Institute.  It is now a very popular podcast on iTunes music platform, and during the first two weeks that the series was available on iTunes it was downloaded 50,000 times.

12487            Madam Chair, this unique content and the intelligent, informed and respectful way it is offered are why people in Alberta, across Canada and around the world support CKUA, to the tune of roughly $3 million annually, a fact even more remarkable when you consider that these are voluntary contributions for a product that can be acquired for free.

12488            This support has made CKUA without question the most successful community‑based broadcaster in this country.

12489            But inherent in this success is CKUA's vulnerability, because it is this unique programming and CKUA's history of serving niche markets that will forever relegate CKUA to having to survive with the support of a loyal but relatively small audience.  Implicit in that equation, then, is the fact that any potential erosion of an existing small audience that is so crucial to our existence, particularly one that voluntarily funds our operations, can have a disproportionately negative impact on CKUA's viability and sustainability.

12490            The situation is really no different for any community‑based broadcaster serving its community, I believe.

12491            But it is specifically because of this particular vulnerability that it is incumbent upon CKUA to defend its audience position fiercely.  To not do so would be an abrogation of responsibility.

12492            Which brings me to our intervention against DAWG‑FM.

12493            Madam Chair, even though CKUA has intervened against DAWG, I have tremendous respect for Mr. Torres and his desire to support the Blues community of Edmonton.  CKUA has its own history of supporting Blues music in this province.

12494            Our intervention, though it referenced several issues we feel are relevant, was largely borne out of concern that a broadcaster seeking to commercially develop a niche music format, particularly one that has been a mainstay of CKUA for 50 years, does represent a potential threat of audience erosion.

12495            That being said, I will say that subsequent to our intervention and Mr. Torres' vigorous defence, I have had opportunity to meet with and discuss my concerns with Mr. Torres and I'm happy to inform the Commission that we have agreed that should Mr. Torres' application be successful on its own merits, we will work collaboratively to address the concerns specific to CKUA.

12496            In truth, CKUA's biggest concerns are not specific to Mr. Torres or any one application or company.  I am excited by what I have seen and heard at these hearings because it speaks directly to the passion, the dedication and the ongoing entrepreneurial spirit that are the hallmarks of this industry.

12497            It is the nature of the business that we will all have occasional differences, but I have been around the business a while and the Canadian broadcasting industry is one of the most collegially competitive enterprises I have ever seen.  Differences will crop up, but behind the competition is the foundation of respect and friendship.

12498            Because of this kinship, I wish that CKUA never had to intervene or challenge anyone's applications, but the vulnerability is real to CKUA, and I might suggest to all community broadcasters.

12499            The broadcasting industry today is staggeringly dynamic and challenging.  CKUA and other community broadcasters face exactly the same challenges and threats as our private and public sector colleagues:  technological change, rising costs, audience fragmentation and increased competition.

12500            The difference for CKUA and other community broadcasters is that the resources needed to face these challenges are extremely limited, our margin for error is minuscule and our sector is, frankly, handicapped by a patently unfair playing field.

12501            As much as CKUA may have concerns with individual applicants from time to time, our primary concern is with the systemic inequities that exists within the Canadian broadcasting system.  On one hand, unlike our friends in the private sector, CKUA is not allowed to compete on an equal footing for advertising.  We cannot simply sell more or charge more to improve our bottom line.

12502            Unlike the CBC, CKUA receives absolutely no tax subsidy to fall back on.  Unlike the public broadcaster, we have no choice but to earn our keep.  That's fine, because in fact we don't want government handouts.

12503            While it may not be specifically germane to these discussions, I have to tell you that it causes me great concern and intense frustration when the tax funded public broadcaster uses our own money to revamp its entire network schedule to, in effect, emulate if not copy CKUA programming models to create, at the very least, a serious potential to erode our audience.

12504            I am more than willing to put CKUA's product up against any other stations in the country, but I cannot compete with private radio's immense marketing machinery or the guaranteed tax funded CBC resources which allow them to leverage a place on SIRIUS, XM, on most if not all telco mobility services, and which allows them to dominate the broadcasting Internet platform in Canada.

12505            CKUA and other community broadcasters have made and are making very important contributions to our respective communities.  We all know we could do much more and we want to contribute more.  Like any other broadcaster, we have a right to not only exist but to thrive.  Any other suggestion would be pure paternalism and is, frankly, unacceptable.

12506            The problem is not a lack of will, Madam Chair.  The problem is our sector's ability to survive, let alone thrive.  The problem is the absence of an appropriate funding framework of support and systemic inequities that preclude us from competing fairly in the marketplace on the basis of our product.

12507            I am happy that Mr. Torres and I have found common ground to resolve our specific issues, but CKUA's greatest concerns are not with Mr. Torres alone, or with Rawlco Radio or any of the fine applicants who have appeared before you in these past weeks.  Our greatest concern is with these inherent and systemic inequities in our system and their potential for significant negative impact on CKUA and the entire community broadcasting sector.

12508            I thank you for this opportunity.

12509            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

12510            Commissioner Cugini will do the questioning.  Thanks.

12511            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  This is going haunt you, Madam Chair.

12512            I'm just saying, if you weren't here, Mr. Regan, she ‑‑ to say mispronounced my last name on a day of the hearing would be an understatement.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

12513            MR. REGAN:  That's why I have stuck with a simple one like Regan.

12514            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you for your intervention here today.  Believe me when I say that the Commission understands and appreciates the special role that CKUA plays in the Canadian broadcasting system.

12515            I am going to start with the end of your presentation and I can't help but think that it is a preview of a submission urging us to review the Community Radio Policy.

12516            MR. REGAN:  I think that's fair to say.  It may also may be a preview of a submission that we plan to make with respect to broadcasting in the new media as well, because there are issues specific to that particular component of the industry that are crucial in the underlying case that I'm trying to make.

12517            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I would suggest that that is probably your best route, in the sense that the Commission will continue to license commercial radio stations if the market so warrants, and I think that you raise some very valid points that the Commission must keep top of mind in those decisions, as I said, the role that community radio plays and the potential impact and that perhaps a bigger form is also something that needs to be added to your schedule.

12518            Now, your written intervention did focus on the Torres application in particular.

12519            MR. REGAN:  Correct.

12520            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I think it is great that you and Mr. Torres were able to reach an agreement to collaborate, so you know I am going to ask you if you can provide us with more details as to what shape that collaboration will take.

12521            MR. REGAN:  Well, it's not in writing as yet ‑‑

12522            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I understand.

12523            MR. REGAN:  ‑‑ but I can say that Mr. Torres has offered to assist CKUA in providing free air time to promote our fundraising activities, for example.

12524            We conduct two fundraisers a year to try to raise operating revenue from the audience.  We have been very successful, but certainly any support that we can achieve around that is helpful.

12525            He has also offered to purchase advertising on CKUA ‑‑ we have a limited advertising, restricted advertising licence ‑‑ not to promote his station so much but to promote community‑based activities that his station may be engaged in and we can ‑‑ when I talk about working collaboratively, I think it is a good thing, a way that we can also assist the work that they're trying to do in the community by promoting those things within our Blues programming on CKUA as well.

12526            So those were couple of things that we have spoken about specifically.

12527            We intend to get together and talk further about other things that we may be able to do, but those are a couple of specific examples.

12528            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  How much Blues music do you currently broadcast?

12529            MR. REGAN:  We broadcast three hours on Friday evenings, from 9:00 to midnight, and we broadcast two hours on Saturday afternoons, from 3:00 to 5:00 p.m.  Those are Blues specific programs, block programs if you wish.

12530            It may sound like odd times within the schedule, but it is not to ghettoize those things at all.  In fact, those programs have garnered significant audiences in those timeslots, so we are reluctant to move them around because we don't want to be upsetting or alienating the audiences that they have developed.

12531            Natural Blues, which is the program produced by Holger Petersen on Saturday afternoons, is the longest‑running Blues program in this country on radio.  So our history in supporting the music and the artists and the industry is well established.

12532            As I say, it is unfortunate that the systemic issues require us to intervene from time to time and our arguments, the points that we made in our intervention, we feel are appropriate.  But it is not a personal thing and we don't wish any ill will to anyone.

12533            As I say, we feel significant vulnerability because we are a small player in a very big and very competitive market.  We have been fortunate to achieve the success that we have, thanks to the generosity of listeners who appreciate what we do, but we know without doubt that we are riding a very strong economic wave at the moment and increased competition, whatever form it may take, audience fragmentation, however it evolves, are serious issues for all of us in broadcasting.  We feel a particular vulnerability because of our reliance and the capricious nature of listener funded radio.

12534            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And your position is that the deleterious effect of licensing more commercial radio stations is that it takes away audience from you, because it doesn't take away advertisers, being a non‑commercial.

12535            MR. REGAN:  No, that is correct.  That is correct.

12536            There is only one audience at the end of the day and we are all trying to carve out a piece of that audience, so the more players there are it stands to reason that the smaller the piece is going to be for somebody.

12537            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  As far as interventions are concerned, we all know that for the most part broadcasters are grown‑ups.  The great thing about your intervention is that you were able to strike at least a conversation with the Torres Group.

12538            MR. REGAN:  Absolutely.  As I say, you know, CKUA has a tremendous relationship with everyone in the industry, particularly I would say with the private sector broadcasters who I think really not only appreciate the niche that CKUA serves, and not only appreciate the fact that we are survivors and the success that we have been able to achieve, they appreciate the fact that we earn our way; that just like them, we make our way on our own product, if you like, the fact that we are not subsidized in any way.

12539            Again, I worked at the CBC and I believe in public broadcasting.  So my issue is not with public broadcasting.  But it causes me grave concern, as I said, to see our money being used to essentially mimic or replicate a lot of what we do in this market and I can't compete with their resources.  I can't compete with the wage scale that has already lured many valuable CKUA employees away from us because we can't compete with their wage scale.

12540            I can't compete with the honorariums that they pay to musicians.  CKUA insists on paying artists who perform at CKUA.  We insist on paying them a stipend, but when CBC can offer them three or four times as much as we can afford, that is problematic for us.  I don't blame an artist for preferring to go to CBC.

12541            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Well, Mr. Regan, thank you very much for your intervention here today.  It was quite useful.

12542            MR. REGAN:  I appreciate the opportunity.

12543            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

12544            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Regan.

12545            MR. REGAN:  Thank you.

12546            THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

12547            I would now call Community Radio Fund and CRA/ANREC, ARC du Canada, ARCQ; Byron Christopher and Edmonton Public Schools to come to the presentation table and present as a panel their interventions.

‑‑‑ Pause

12548            THE SECRETARY:  We will start with Community Radio Fund.

12549            Please introduce yourself and you will then have ten minutes to make your presentation.

INTERVENTION

12550            MS KAESTNER:  Thank you.

12551            Good morning, everyone.  My name is Melissa Kaestner and I am the development consultant for the newly formed Community Radio Fund of Canada, La Fond Canadien de la Radio Communautaire.  I have worked in radio for 15 years and was most recently the National Coordinator for the National Campus and Community Radio Association.

12552            We are here today on behalf of not only the Fund, but also for its three founding associations.

12553            MR. HANNLEY:  Hello.  My name is Jay Hannley.  I am the Program Manager at CJSR Radio here in Edmonton, Alberta.  It is a campus and community radio station.

12554            I was the Music Director there for five years and I just recently got to the position as Program Manager.

12555            MS KAESTNER:  The Community Radio Fund of Canada is a national fund established to support the development of local community radio.  It is our goal to help these broadcasters reach their collective potential as a well resourced, independent, diverse, vibrant and accessible media sector.

12556            The activities of the Fund will reflect the commitment of the sector to principles of localism and access, respect for and promotion of the official languages of Canada, diversity and multiculturalism, social justice and high quality programming and innovation.

12557            We are here today to talk about how approving the licence for Rogers Broadcasting will contribute to community radio broadcasting across the country.  We will talk about the details of the program and provide examples of projects that stations could receive funding for, but first we will give an overview of the Fund itself.

12558            The Fund was created by Canada's largest community radio associations, the National Campus and Community Radio Association, l'Alliance des radio communautaires du Canada and l'Association de radiodiffuseurs communautaires du Québec.

12559            Since the fall of 2004 they have worked together to build this arm's length not‑for‑profit organization, from initial discussions and research to creating bylaws and policies, to meeting the CRTC staff and Commissioners and to making our case to Canadian Heritage, Senators and MPs.  The Associations have contributed considerable financial, staff and volunteer resources.

12560            The result is a transparent and accountable funding body that will have a meaningful and significant impact.

12561            The Fund is open to all non‑commercial community and community based licensed broadcasters in Canada and their associations.  It will ensure that financial support is well targeted and used efficiently.  Applications for funding will be judged on a combination of need and merit for projects and activities under the following program areas: sustainability and capacity building; dealing with emerging broadcast distribution technologies; local news and spoken word programming; and, finally, Canadian Talent Development.

12562            In terms of structure, the Fund is member driven, its membership comprised of the stations and associations it has been created to serve.  These members will elect an independent board with no directors having any affiliation with potential recipients, meaning they will not be board members, officers, staff people or active volunteers at recipient stations.

12563            Additionally, each founding association will have an ex officio representative to act as an advisor but will not have a board vote or participate in funding decisions.

12564            In the future, we may add ex officio positions to represent our long‑term funding agencies or sectors, which would help achieve our goal of ensuring transparent management of the funding we receive.

12565            While we intend to diversify our revenue sources in the future, we are currently focusing on soliciting contributions from the private broadcasting sector and the federal government, including the Department of Canadian Heritage.

12566            With regard to private broadcasters, we have already made significant progress toward achieving our funding goals.  Last month we publicly launched the Fund by announcing our partnership with Astral Media Radio, resulting in a $1.4 million contribution over seven years.  This will see the Fund distributing grants as early as this fall through two programs, the Astral Media Radio Artist Development Assistance Program and the Astral Media Youth Internship Program.

12567            Now that the Fund has been officially certified by the CRTC, we are able to develop new funding partnerships with other broadcasters as well.

12568            One such partnership is with Rogers Broadcasting.  After indicating in their application they wanted to support campus and community broadcasters, they learned of the existence of the Fund from CRTC staff.  Rogers then approached us to discuss possible news oriented grants for our stations.

12569            The result is our proposal to manage the Rogers News Access Program.  This program would provide funding to assist eligible stations in Alberta and across the country to develop and increase local news and public affairs programming.

12570            MR. HANNLEY:  One of the primary functions of community media is to provide people with a voice that reflects what is happening in the community around them.  With so many people turning to digital forms of media, terrestrial analog radio now competes with a wide range of music, news and other content from around the globe.  But no matter how much choice they have, people still need to know about the events and issues in their home communities, where they live, work, learn, pay taxes, raise children and socialize.

12571            Local news orientated programming not only keeps people informed and offers in‑depth analysis and relevant local issues, it can also help hold local decision‑makers accountable, encourage dialogue and participatory decision‑making and contribute to sustainable community development.  Increasing the capacity for not‑for‑profit community stations to carry this out provides community members with a unique opportunity to actively participate in researching and broadcasting their own news orientated programs as an alternative to passing consumption of news.

12572            It will play a key role in ensuring that the not‑for‑profit community media remains relevant in the future.

12573            Having consistent on air news programming is a common goal of stations in our sector.  Most stations offer at least some programming geared towards news and public affairs.  For the most part this occurs through weekly programming focused on specific issues.

12574            For example Terra Informa, an environmental news program on CJSR in Edmonton, Dynamic Health on CFRO in Vancouver Co‑op Radio, Aboriginal Connections on CKUW in Winnipeg and Critical Thinking, a municipal politics program on CFRC in Kingston.

12575            There are a few stations that have the resources to produce daily news programming such as CKDU in Halifax, CKUT in Montreal and CHRY in Toronto, but this is rare.

12576            The key challenges the stations face in realizing regular local news oriented programming can be attributed to a lack of resources, which leaves them with insufficient staff, equipment and inadequate training to produce frequent, thorough and reliable news.

12577            Through the Rogers News Access Program stations will be eligible to apply for grants to help with the infrastructure, training and production.  Half of these grants would be given to stations in Alberta and the remaining half to stations in other parts of the country.

12578            In the area of training, stations could receive grants to strengthen the presence and improve the quality of news oriented programming to serve their local communities.

12579            For example, a station could bring in experienced researchers, journalists, reporters and other news producers to conduct workshops and training sessions so that new and experienced volunteers and staff can learn skills relevant to high‑quality news broadcasting.

12580            In the area of production, grants could be available for stations to purchase portable recording equipment.  It can also enable stations to develop custom software to facilitate digital editing and enable stations and their volunteers to share news and information locally and nationally across the community radio sector.

12581            In the area of infrastructure, stations could receive grants to hire consultants to help establish a sustainable news department or develop news and editorial policies and style guides.  They could also hire short‑term interns or producers to develop story ideas, conduct research and recruit local volunteers to help create news oriented programming.

12582            MS KAESTNER:  Rogers Broadcasting's contribution to the Fund will increase the capacity of stations in the community radio sector to produce news and strengthen the presence and quality of the news and public affairs programming they provide.  It will also foster increased opportunities for community members to participate in newsmaking, thereby increasing the diversity of voices and perspectives on the airwaves.

12583            We ask the Commission to consider this impact when awarding licences for the Edmonton market.

12584            Thank you.  We welcome your questions.

12585            THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

12586            We will now proceed with Mr. Byron Christopher.

12587            You have ten minutes to make your presentation.

INTERVENTION

12588            MR. CHRISTOPHER:  Thank you very much and good morning, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

12589            Right off the bat, a very belated warm welcome to Edmonton and to Alberta.  I think I have new respect to the CRTC after watching you in operation for about a week and a half.  You certainly have an awful lot of information to go through and I do not envy your job.  There have been very good presentations here.

12590            I am a little bit like Harpdog in that I'm kind of nervous talking to the group.  It is not the microphone.  I feel like I am appearing before the Broadcasting Supreme Court.  There is a lot at stake here.

12591            I would like to thank Cindy Ventura for her help.  She has been an excellent traffic cop.  I have been badgering her to find out when I am appearing and she has been very patient with me.

12592            Yes, I am here on behalf of the Rogers application for an all news operation here in Edmonton.  I support that fully and with my heart.

12593            Another news operation here is desperately needed.  The key word is desperate.  It is like we need it like a slow steady rain after a long drought.  The fact is Edmontonians have been suffering through an information drought for about two decades.

12594            Radio news rooms here have been decimated.  I know you have heard this probably from one end of Canada to the other, but you are going to hear it again.

12595            I don't think there is one FM operation here in the city that has a dedicated reporter, not one.  That is a huge change from the time I got into the business 30 years ago.  The proof is over here.

12596            I mean, you have a media table set up and I haven't seen too many reporters here.  But if this was the early 1980s, there would have been quite a few reporters.

12597            So for a long time now there has been no real competition.

12598            I notice that with all the speakers here ‑‑ and I include myself ‑‑ we speak with passion.  We have different interests and certainly with a lot of passion.  I too have a lot of passion for the news business.

12599            I was asked at an employee evaluation just a few years ago how would I rate my loyalty to the company?  It is a bit loaded.  I said it comes in second.  My loyalty is to the audience and it always will be.

12600            Whether I work for one company or Al Jazeera or CBC, it doesn't really matter.  My loyalty has always been to the audience.

12601            To give you an example of a lack of media coverage, about 2002 or so I was reading news on one of the AM stations in Edmonton on the weekend ‑‑ I was also the reporter ‑‑ and I forgot to check my faxes.  Five hours later I checked them and found an important fax:  a news release from the Edmonton Police Department about a homicide.  I quickly got it on the air and the remarkable thing was we broke the story.

12602            That illustrates the drought here.  That would not have happened in the 70s, there was such competition here.

12603            I'm sure ‑‑ and I hate to say this to a panel of three women, but I have to use a sports analogy.

12604            I'm sure you have watched hockey teams where teams have been playing with two players short.  Edmontonians have been watching a game here where their team has been four players short.  That accounts for a lot of smoke and mirrors in the industry, a lot of plagiarism.  I hate to say it, but it goes on.

12605            I think the big losers ‑‑ I listened to these corporations, the suits talk here about their fear of competition, but really the big losers are the people of Edmonton.  They are not given a choice in information.  They are not given a choice in many stations, to start with.

12606            It is the equivalent of asking the people of Edmonton to buy their cars at one dealership, essentially a General Motors car.  If there are two dealerships, it is owned by the same company.  It is not a level playing field, not even close to it.

12607            So not only do Edmontonians need more information, they need different kinds of information, different outlooks, not the same editorial voice.  That won't work.  It works fine in North Korea or Cuba, but not here.

12608            I know the buzzword that I have been hearing here is diversity of voices.  That simply means we need more voices.

12609            I believe consumers need a choice in news, the same way you need a choice when you buy a vehicle or any product.  Competition is a good thing and choice is a good thing.

12610            When the Calgary Flames made it to the NHL Stanley Cup finals a few years ago, guess which team followed them the following year to the finals?  It was the Edmonton Oilers.  That's competition.  That's pride.

12611            If we get another great newsroom here ‑‑ and there are some here now and I don't wish to knock the other stations ‑‑ it will only make everyone better, not just the other stations, the TV stations, newspapers.

12612            There is nothing that ticks off a media company more than to get a great scoop and to have them follow it or to try to match it or to beat it.  Competition is a good thing.

12613            Again I use a sports analogy here, but going back to the so‑called old days where we played AAA ball here, now it is slo‑pitch.  And what is being lobbed across are news releases, news conferences, wire copy.  It sure ain't journalism.

12614            Ethics.  I am big on that.  The broadcast industry has a Code of Ethics.  It is administered by the Radio‑Television News Directors Association.  The City of Edmonton also has a bylaw prohibiting littering and the old Soviet Union had a Bill of Rights.  They don't really mean a lot unless it is enforced, and they are not enforced.

12615            Competition.  One of the caveats I would put in my support for Rogers is that they put up a Code of Ethics right in the newsroom for everyone to read and stick it on their website so the public can read and can look over their shoulders and give them ‑‑ take them to task if they cross any lines.

12616            By the way, I am not aware of any newsroom in the city that has a posted Code of Ethics.  Some brothels in Vegas do, but newsrooms don't.

12617            A good friend of mine recently turned down a job in radio in Edmonton.  He was to be a reporter.  I won't identify the station.  But he walked out after he saw the reporter steal traffic reports from another station.  There was no shame.  He said no thanks.

12618            I recently interviewed the infamous paedophile Karl Toft.  That story appeared front‑page news in Edmonton Sun.  I offered the tape free to a radio station in Edmonton on condition that they give credit.  They didn't want to run the story.  Management didn't like to give credit.

12619            The voice of Karl Toft speaking was broken by a radio station in Calgary.  It happened to be Rogers.

12620            One thing I liked about Rogers' management ‑‑ and it's not very often I praise suits.  But a number of years ago while working at a private station here one of our reporters joined the Rogers outfit in Calgary and said, do you know what's neat, they were ordered to credit sources.

12621            I don't know who that person at Rogers was, but I would like to shake their hand.

12622            The CRTC could do its share to.  I think you could do more in enforcing standards.  I really believe that in some instances you are part of the problem and not the solution.

12623            Have you ever yanked a licence because of plagiarism?  It's rampant.

12624            I would like to see the CRTC make newsrooms accountable to indicate the sources for stories, not necessarily names, but to indicate if you pulled that story straight from a newspaper, say so.  I mean, you do that now with playlists and Canadian content.  I think it is equally as important to have it done for news.

12625            I can't believe I have only talked about ethics and stopped at three minutes, because I could go on for three days.

12626            That is the end of my talk.  Thank you and thank you again for coming here.

12627            THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

12628            We will now proceed with Edmonton Public Schools.

12629            Please introduce yourself, after which you will have ten minutes for your presentation.

INTERVENTION

12630            MR. WRIGHT:  Thank you.

12631            Good morning.  My name is Stephen Wright.  I work for the Edmonton public school system in a role titled Supervisor.  Although that role carries a title, nobody really knows what that means.

12632            My role is to work with student transitions dealing with secondary students who are transitioning to post secondary or the world of work and to develop programming, courses and help schools in delivering things to assist students in the successful transition.

12633            One of the roles I perform is the development of the Skill Center which is going to begin pilot operation in September 2008.

12634            Edmonton Public Schools has looked at the programming we provide in our secondary school and has noticed with the recent cuts to education that we no longer provide previous courses to students because we can't provide them in the variety of school settings we have.

12635            So my job and role were to reinvent what can be done at a school, but instead of providing it to all of our high schools to relocate the students to the Skill Center for a portion of their school day.

12636            So one of the things we will be putting in is a hospital ward in order to teach health services to students.  We do not have enough students in any one school to fill that classroom, so we will be busing students to and from the site from other high schools to utilize the facility and the teacher, because the teacher must have high qualifications to do that.

12637            Our original plan focused on very traditional courses.  Just like the students, we thought of what roles they traditionally go to after high school and we never thought of radio.  That was never on our agenda because it was just never in our mind.

12638            Through conversations with the General Manager from SONiC and World FM, we learned of the Canadian Content Development as part of this and tried to look at how this could support school systems or the K to 12 system, not only in providing instruction through the Skills Center, but also such things as a community resource database in which we identify community companies that can support education and things that can be distributed to other schools that are sort of trickle‑down from the work we do with the Skill Center.

12639            The Radio in Schools Program, as part of the Canadian content development, is a seven‑year plan that aligns very well with what we are proposing for the Skill Center, because it is a phased‑in approach that will allow us to build two sites, deliver instruction in radio and broadcast journalism that goes along with other initiatives we're working on.

12640            The money used from this Radio in Schools Program will provide the equipment, teacher learning resources and student learning resources that we currently do not receive funding from Alberta education to buy.  We are funded from Alberta education on something called CEUs, which are credit enrolment units, to pay for the teachers we have.  But there is no seed money to start up new programs in that.

12641            Also as part of the Canadian content development Rogers is looking at supporting the work done at NAIT and we also are partnered through an innovation grant with NAIT to develop the programming, so this is what content and courses go into that school as well, so we can leverage that money and that grant money to support the development of a radio program in the Skill Center.

12642            Why it is important for us to work with an all news station is because of the interactions of students with the media; that it maximizes the learning time for students.  If you look at the curriculum we are starting for Audio 1525‑35 is the name of the course, it has the students constantly doing something and that's what we look for with the all news station.

12643            Also we look at partnering with the all news station because they will have a larger pool of professional people in the radio station to support student learning, so we would be able to tap on more people to come out and mentor the students, work with the students in doing presentations; that there is actually more human capital available.

12644            Another reason for getting involved in supporting this application is media awareness.  The partnership for the 21st century skills identified the need for children to understand the myriad of messages from the broadcast medium that surround them every day.  Unfortunately, that often comes with students learning to cut‑and‑paste, not citing their sources.  Instead, we must have students access and analyze, so they must have the news available to them to do that.  Then they must evaluate and create messages of their own to learn and have opportunities.

12645            We feel that the Radio in Schools focused on journalism will provide all four of these to occur.

12646            The third reason for getting involved is, as a previous classroom teacher, I taught math and unfortunately I think I am a good math teacher, but I don't think many kids woke up and jumped out of bed in grade 8 to come into my math class.

12647            We found not surprisingly that students are losing out on their option courses and losing relevancy of education.  So they are not hopping out of bed to come to the course any more, but we are also finding we have lost the reinforcement and transferable skills.

12648            If we look at journalism, it is easy to recognize that they reinforce our language, our arts curriculum and our social studies curriculum.  But when you look a little deeper, there is statistics, there is ethics, there is technical skills, career awareness, science inquiry.  All of that can be reinforced in the option classes.  We don't need to keep putting kids into more academic courses and wondering why they're not succeeding any longer.

12649            The one area that I am out of my element in speaking about but I want to mention is the future.  This is a seven‑year plan and I don't know where radio will evolve to in seven years.  I am simply a consumer of the radio system.

12650            We do know that students readily use new technologies, and often faster than our teachers, but I was fortunate to teach both teachers and students PowerPoint when it was first introduced and we found the same thing occurred in adults and kids:  everybody learned very quickly how to have things fly in and the typewriter sound as words appear, but they lost the fact that there had to be a message on that screen; there had to be content.

12651            We want to teach media literacy to our students, not just how to use the equipment.

12652            So I'm pleased today to be a part of this process.  It has increased my awareness.  It has increased our involvement with the radio community and I am surprised that I bump into more and more people now involved with radio that I never knew before, now that I am involved with it.

12653            So thank you for the opportunity for Edmonton Public to present today.

12654            If you have any questions, I would be happy to answer them.

12655            Thank you.

12656            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, all of you, for appearing.

12657            I'm just wondering, Ms Kaestner, these funds, Astral, Rogers, these are just the start of this new funding.  What other sources?

12658            I think you referred in your remarks to approaching broadcasters, I assume you meant in general, just not people applying for new licences?

12659            MS KAESTNER:  That's right.  We are essentially going to seek every opportunity that we can.  Since the time that we incorporated the Fund last November, you know, it is promising that we already have one funder established, and we are here as part of this proceeding to speak to two other potential sources.

12660            That is barely with really getting the word out.  We haven't had a lot of opportunities to really spread the word that the Fund is here and come on over and talk to us, kind of thing.

12661            So I think as time goes by and more people learn about us, I think that the opportunities will open up, whether it is through new licences or renewals or transfer of owners, those kinds of things.

12662            Then outside of the private broadcasters we are looking at contributions from the federal government, as I mentioned, such as through the Department of Canadian Heritage.  That is an ongoing thing and we have been focused on that because I think, as I also mentioned in the presentation, the three founding associations have just been putting in any resources that they currently have.

12663            So now the Fund is in a position where it has a development consultant that is available to start pushing this forward little bit more.

12664            THE CHAIRPERSON:  So where are you situated yourself?  Where is your office?

12665            MS KAESTNER:  In Ottawa.

12666            THE CHAIRPERSON:  In Ottawa.

12667            MS KAESTNER:  Yes.

12668            THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think we have met before.

12669            But you will be approaching broadcasters, for example established broadcasters in Edmonton as well, independents?

12670            MS KAESTNER:  Yes.  As far as we are concerned, we are available to work with multiple broadcasters in terms of ‑‑ I don't know what the best forums or what the best methods are for that outreach, if it is just a matter of picking up the phone and calling them.  We are certainly willing to do that and hopefully some people will pick up the phone and call us as well.

12671            THE CHAIRPERSON:  I guess I was actually wondering if you were going to be proactive or if you were just going to wait for people like Rogers or others to come to you because they have an idea and they want to put together an acceptable plan.

12672            MS KAESTNER:  Our goal is to be proactive.  I just started working out of the office at the beginning of April.  So getting our website ‑‑ I mean, our website isn't even up and running yet.  It is currently being developed.  Just getting our address ‑‑ it is actually still a temporary office.

12673            So everything is still in the development phases.

12674            So even though in these cases people have approached us with respect to the Edmonton proceeding, we definitely intend to be much more proactive, even in the coming months.

12675            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

12676            Mr. Hannley, are you also involved with the fundraising aspect of it as well?

12677            MR. HANNLEY:  Well, as regard to our individual station, for sure.

12678            THE CHAIRPERSON:  And your station again was what?

12679            MR. HANNLEY:  It's CJSR.  It is a campus and community station here in Edmonton.

12680            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, in Edmonton.

12681            MR. HANNLEY:  Yes.  So we raise money in the same sort of way that CKUA does, through listener donations.

12682            THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you have great success at that?

12683            MR. HANNLEY:  Not as good as CKUA; but, yes.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

12684            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Theirs sounded good.  Thank you.

12685            Mr. Christopher, you will be happy to know that I stayed in my room last night to watch the game.  I wasn't happy with the outcome, but nevertheless I did watch it.  And my husband plays slo‑pitch, so I did get your analogies.

12686            MR. CHRISTOPHER:  You can relate to those, yes.

12687            THE CHAIRPERSON:  I understand there was a recent change in format with one of the Corus stations in the last few weeks, I gather, to add another new station.

12688            Do I have that right?

12689            MR. CHRISTOPHER:  Okay.  I would rather not be compromised on that.  I worked for that station.  I know of conversations that were said there and I would rather not bring them up.

12690            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

12691            MR. CHRISTOPHER:  If you are trying to get into there, I must back away from it.

12692            THE CHAIRPERSON:  I wasn't trying to get in there.  I was just wondering if it was going to be sufficient to address your concern about whether there was adequate news in the market ‑‑

12693            MR. CHRISTOPHER:  No, absolutely not.

12694            THE CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ are adequate diversity of voices?

12695            MR. CHRISTOPHER:  Absolutely not.

12696            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Absolutely not.

12697            MR. CHRISTOPHER:  There won't be a diversity of voices.  It's the same news staff.

12698            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

12699            As for the Edmonton Public Schools, I was just wondering, Mr. Wright, when you had actually hoped to start your Radio in Schools aspect of your Shared Skills Center?

12700            MR. WRIGHT:  The Skills Centre will begin operation this September.  We are running some pilots this summer to learn from them in the healthcare field and then we will gradually phase in programs, adding them as we go along.

12701            It is a five‑year program in cooperation with NAIT, of which this was the first year in developmental phases.  So we are into year two this coming year and we will be adding programs.

12702            We recently met at NAIT to decide which of the programs we will work together on and radio was one that we are working on.

12703            THE CHAIRPERSON:  So will the radio one proceed with or without the Rogers money?

12704            MR. WRIGHT:  Without the money, it will probably not proceed.

12705            THE CHAIRPERSON:  I was curious to know, you mentioned the gentleman from The Bounce; I didn't catch the name.  Did they approach you or did you approach them?

12706            MR. WRIGHT:  From SONiC and World FM?

12707            THE CHAIRPERSON:  SONiC, was it?  Okay.  Thank you.

12708            MR. WRIGHT:  And they approached us.

12709            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  We appreciate you all taking the time to come.  We have read your interventions and we certainly will consider them.

12710            Thank you.

12711            THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

12712            I would now call UrbanDNA Events, Jonny Chung, Q99 FM and Peter Kossowan to appear as a panel and present their interventions and to approach the presentation table.

‑‑‑ Pause

12713            THE SECRETARY:  We will begin with UrbanDNA Events.

INTERVENTION

12714            MR. BAIG:  Thank you.

12715            Good morning, Lady Chairman and everybody else on the Panel.

12716            I am glad to be here and show my support for NEW 107.

12717            My name is Tim Baig and I represent a small group of people called UrbanDNA Events.  I am sure you would want to know who I am and what I do here in Edmonton.

12718            I am a part‑time, independent promoter here in Edmonton and we are dedicated to bringing small to medium‑sized concert events and showcases.  I consider ourselves more grassroots, meaning that what we do is more trendsetting and always a step ahead of what's going on.

12719            Having said that, you know, I would like to be here today and speak on behalf of the Urban music community here in Edmonton.

12720            What makes me qualified to speak on their behalf?  For several reasons.

12721            First of all, I would like to consider myself active in the community, continuously active.  I work with venues, retailers, major record labels and most importantly the local artists.  It is all in an effort to help build the emerging Urban music community that is happening here in Edmonton.

12722            I also DJ and have been doing so for over a decade now.  You know, being a DJ you are always in the know of what's new and what's fresh and the feedback that you get from people and their ideas of the music selection that is available here in the city.

12723            Last, I have been involved with event promotions for the last five years, three years in Toronto working for one of the largest promotions companies in the country and two years here in Edmonton as an independent promoter, which has been successful thus far.

12724            So with all this experience I have been fortunate to meet all sorts of people, most importantly getting the feedback from these people, what they like, what they dislike when it comes to music that is available here in their own city.

12725            Let's just say I just try to keep an ear to the street in trying to see what people are saying.

12726            So that is why I'm here, you know, to voice that opinion of the community and say that something like NEW 107 and its format is something that is in demand and it is something that would be successful, you know, in the City of Edmonton.

12727            If you are wondering how I heard about NEW 107 and why I wanted to get involved, it was through word of mouth initially and from there I took it upon myself to do my own personal research, looking up their website, checking out their pages on Facebook, which is very popular, and I was instantly impressed.  I was instantly excited.

12728            The reasons why is because I could relate to the concept and the image that they are putting out there.  I related to it on a personal level because it is something that I have always wanted to see, and even on the business level what I am doing with UrbanDNA is kind of what NEW 107 is doing as well.

12729            You know, it is young, it is new, and most importantly it is local.

12730            I was also impressed with the promotional efforts that they put forth and the feedback they generated in such a short time.

12731            You know, it wasn't just me, it was the people that were getting excited and they definitely created a buzz in the city.

12732            So after all that I took it upon myself, contacting John Yerxa, showing him my support and trying to get more information about what I could do, and that's how I ended up here.

12733            So basically I know you are going to ask why do we need a station like NEW 107 here.  There are various reasons.

12734            You know, as far as I know, radio stations are supposed to be a reflection of their target listeners and I'm here to say that there is a group of listeners, a large group of listeners, that aren't getting what they want from the local radio stations.  More importantly, it is a station that could probably bring new listeners to radio.

12735            You know, if people want to listen to Modern Rock and Classic Rock, we have great stations like The Bear and SONiC, and for those people who want to listen to Top 40 hits, The Bounce is great for that.  I mean, those stations are great at what they do, but there is a large market similar to the one that I aim after with UrbanDNA that is 15‑to‑29 years old that aren't getting what they want from radio.

12736            So where are they turning to?  I mean, like everybody else that knows it is simple.  They are going to their iPods, they are going to MP3 players, they are going online to the Internet and listening to music just because that is the only place they can get it.

12737            The people in this demographic are just doing it at a larger rate, you know, and it is just going to get larger and larger.  So, I mean it is not a fad, it is not a phase.  This is what is happening and this is the future of music.

12738            The younger people want variety and because of the accessibility today, I mean we are listening to more artists, we are listening to more songs, we are listening to more genres.  Everything has just become more, more, more.  So we need to make radio relevant again to young people and we need to give people a reason to reach for the radio dial again, because it is losing some appeal with the younger generation.

12739            One of the solutions is what NEW 107 is proposing, having a constant rotation of new and fresh music, which is a format that will keep these listeners coming back and introducing new listeners to radio again.  That is how we can keep it more appealing.

12740            The most important reason why we need NEW 107 is because of their commitment to play Canadian content.  It is a commitment I have made by always making efforts to include local artists at every one of my events, and I hope that if this station gets approved I could help build these local artists and the music community with NEW 107.

12741            So I guess one of the questions that may arise is that, you know, if NEW 107 is some form of an iPod, then why do we need it?  If people can listen to what they want on an iPod, why do we need 107?

12742            For one, it is interactive where iPods and MP3 players and the Internet are kind of limited in that way.  People still want to hear a voice.  People still want to hear what's going on in their city and they want the information to go along with their music.

12743            Second, NEW 107 is constantly introducing new music, a constant rotation of music that people won't hear anywhere else.

12744            Then just some final notes, probably the most important ones.

12745            I would like to distinguish between an outlet and a source, meaning NEW 107 will not just be an outlet for music like other radio stations.  I feel other radio stations are just outlets for music.  They are just driving the chart‑based music and they are good at what they do for certain type of listener.  But there is a huge demographic of listeners that isn't getting what they want.

12746            Instead, NEW 107 will be a constant source, not an outlet.  It will be a source.  It gives people a reason to listen.  It is what we need and that is the key to the station, because I think the young people now go to the Internet, go to iTunes because it is a source rather than an outlet.

12747            You know, radio needs to catch up with what is going on, especially with the younger target market.

12748            You know, everything else is changing when it comes to the way we listen to music.  We are in a generation of constant progression.  Everything is bigger, everything is better, everything is faster.  And the way the younger generation listens to music now, you know, like I said, it is not a phase or a fad; this is the present, this is the way the future of music is going and we need a station that reflects that.

12749            You know, I'm not saying that we need to reinvent the wheel, but we need to put some shiny new rims on it and make it more relevant to what is happening now to the younger generation.

12750            So please strongly consider NEW 107 for approval.  I believe in John Yerxa.  I believe in his group of people that can make this happen.

12751            Like I said, I hope that what I'm saying is taken to heart and, like I said, I am speaking on behalf of many, many people.

12752            I appreciate your time and thanks again.

12753            THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

12754            We will now proceed with Jonny Chung.

12755            You have ten minutes for your presentation.

INTERVENTION

12756            MR. CHUNG:  Hello.  As you said, my name is Jonny Chung and I'm a full‑time student at the University of Alberta as well as an independent Urban artist here in Edmonton.

12757            First off, I would just like to say as a science student you don't really do public speaking so I am kind of nervous, if you can't tell already.  I think the last time I public spoke seriously was in high school, so please just bear with me.

12758            Like I said, I am one half of a duo here in Edmonton known as The Greater Good.  We are an Urban group here, and we have been making music since 2001.

12759            As a solo artist I have been able to open up for such groups as Sweatshop Union and Slum Village, which was with the help of UrbanDNA.

12760            I am here today to speak on behalf of John Yerxa and NEW 107.

12761            For the last two years we struggled kind of just to be heard on local radio.  We got a couple of plays on CJSR, because they have an Urban show, which is the campus radio, but we haven't been heard on commercial radio yet.

12762            NEW 107, they launched the website which I heard through word‑of‑mouth from my peers and they actually contacted me first and were willing to support me and put me up on the website, and they threw my song up on their website and put me into the, I guess, online rotation.

12763            Yes, only after a couple of days I got some feedback from my friends who were also checking out the site and they are like wow, like you got put on the site.  When is this radio station coming out, like when can we hear you on air?  And I was just telling them that they are applying for it and they were all agreeing that it would be a great idea to have this kind of station in our city.

12764            As well, if they gave us this type of support online and through the website and the Facebook group, which Tim already mentioned, just imagine what kind of support they would give us if the station were to be granted here, as well as they would play us not only to the online community that is already supporting, but to the rest of the community that would hear the buzz and maybe tune in.

12765            The second point I would like to bring up his John Yerxa, he mentioned to me that they would be contributing financial backing to independent artists here in the city.  One of the names that came up was FACTOR, and he said that you can go online and fill out a form to have a grant given to you that would help with financial backing.  He said that they would be a large part in that, contributing financial backing to that.

12766            The last point I would like to bring up is I am also a taekwondo instructor to the urban ministry in the city here, and I teach a lot of youth.  One thing that they brought up, which is similar to my peers, is they aren't just listening to one genre right now.  They like every type of music, kind of like their iPods, but also when you go to the clubs DJs were playing mash‑ups, which are maybe a Rock song mixed with an Urban song.

12767            So they want to hear kind of a mixing pot of music and everything.

12768            A lot of interest has been shown.  I would just like to bring that point up.

12769            Thank you.

12770            THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

12771            We will now proceed with Q99 FM.

12772            Please introduce yourself and then you will have ten minutes for your presentation.

INTERVENTION

12773            MR. TRUHN:  Thank you very much.

12774            My name is Ken Truhn.  I am the President and General Manager of Q99 in Grande Prairie.

12775            I just wanted to thank you first.  I haven't had a chance publicly to thank the Commission for giving me the opportunity to pursue my lifelong dream, which was owning a radio station in my hometown, which is Grande Prairie.

12776            I am here obviously to speak on behalf of John Yerxa's application for a new FM licence here in Edmonton.

12777            I have been in this business ever since I graduated from high school some 32 years ago.  I have a great passion for it and still do, for radio and everything it represents in our community and the communities it serves across this country.

12778            One of the things that you may or may not be aware of is the huge contribution that John made to our application process when we went through it for Grande Prairie, well beyond what we hired him to do, which was initial research and consultation throughout the process.

12779            My association with John goes back a number of years to the Monarch Broadcasting days when John was initially hired to provide that company with research in various markets.  Over the course of time, he and I became pretty close friends and his experience in radio as a research consultant is unequalled as far as anyone I have had the pleasure of working with in the business and a large part of that credibility I believe stems from his background in the actual operation of radio stations.

12780            The kind of support John provided us with is indicative of the association he has had with many other broadcasters across the country, including a lot of friends and associates of mine, and that is primarily why I'm here before you today.

12781            There aren't very many of us independent broadcasters left in Canada or across the country.  I believe John should be given the opportunity to build a station in his hometown based on the same set of reasoning that I applied for one in my hometown.  He is local.  He has an extensive background in this business.  He has a solid business plan in terms of format and the niche he wants to carve out in the Edmonton market.

12782            His format position is unique.  When you look at the radio landscape across the country, I just believe that there must be opportunities for individuals such as myself and for John to pursue our passion for radio.

12783            I believe in circumstances such as this where you have an applicant with expertise, with the know‑how, with a great plan and an even larger passion for radio, he deserves that opportunity.

12784            I know John has many supporters throughout the radio industry.  I know that lots of people are rooting for him.  In his case, how unique it is to see an independent applicant with his entire family around him, not only serving as a support network but as active members of his presentation team.

12785            I just wanted to personally attest to the Commission that beyond his skills as a radio consultant, John has the passion and expertise to introduce a diverse and meaningful new format to radio listeners in Edmonton.

12786            As an independent broadcaster, I wanted you to know that he will contribute something special to this, his hometown, and to radio in general.

12787            Thank you.

12788            THE SECRETARY:  Thank you very much.

12789            We will now proceed with Peter Kossowan.

12790            You have ten minutes for your presentation.

INTERVENTION

12791            MR. KOSSOWAN:  Thank you.

12792            Madam Chairman, Commissioners and staff, my name is Peter Kossowan and I have been a constant promoter of Edmonton ever since I have arrived in 1950.

12793            I have had the opportunity to know the Yerxa family for a long, long time and they have a standing tradition in this community in radio and in business.  As a youngster, I listened to John's father, Hal Yerxa, host the farmer's program, basically designed and directed at the youth.

12794            Then he ventured into creating his own radio station CFCW Camrose, which still serves a large part of the province.  While operating that radio station they as a family helped build the community and were excellent corporate citizens.

12795            The Yerxa family put the northern Alberta area on the map operating radio station.

12796            Like his father, John Yerxa is an entrepreneur and, like his father, has special interest in youth and in business.  John and his family deserve an opportunity to demonstrate and maintain the legacy established many years ago.

12797            Youth of today, as always, are in need of guidance, direction and to become responsible leaders of the future.  Given this opportunity, John and his family can mould the lives of the young and ensure them a bright future.

12798            I can firmly vouch for John's integrity, his business knowledge and his drive to serve the Edmonton community.

12799            History has an opportunity to repeat itself.  Should John Yerxa and his family establish a radio station of their choice, it will again be a legacy.

12800            Support of this applicant is going to further enhance Edmonton and the world of radio here.  I firmly support this application, knowing it is going to make a difference.

12801            From my own personal introduction, I am the former Chairman of the Board of Governors at Grant MacEwan College, which brought the brand new college downtown and, as you are very well aware, has an arts component to it which is music.

12802            In addition to that, I brought some fame to Edmonton as the world creator of Toastmasters International.  As I hear many of the young presenters here, I have a program that can suit your needs.

12803            The Toastmaster program also has a youth component to it, so I speak on behalf of the community in favour of this station.

12804            Thank you.

12805            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

12806            Commissioner Molnar...?

12807            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank you and welcome, everyone.

12808            Mr. Kossowan, when you say you speak on behalf of the community, I have read your intervention and I have seen your very significant contributions to the Edmonton community.  So I think you are well placed to speak on their behalf, on the community's behalf, and I would like to thank you for coming.

12809            I don't actually have questions for you.  It was very clear, both in your written intervention and in what you told us here today, of your support for the local, if you will, the local presence here in Edmonton and the family's contributions to this community.

12810            So thank you for coming.

12811            Mr. Truhn, it was always very clear of your support for Mr. Yerxa on a personal level, as well as from a professional level, having worked with him also on your own application.

12812            Is that right?

12813            MR. TRUHN:  Yes.  He was our research consultant.

12814            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  I am relatively new to the Commission and wasn't around at the time when you would have been licensed for Grande Prairie.  When did that occur?

12815            MR. TRUHN:  November 15th of 2006 was when the licence was awarded.

12816            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  How many licensees are there in Grande Prairie?

12817            MR. TRUHN:  Five now.

12818            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Five.

12819            MR. TRUHN:  There was two.

12820            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Are you the only local independent licensee in that market?

12821            MR. TRUHN:  Yes.

12822            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  How is that working?

12823            MR. TRUHN:  It's working just fine.

12824            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  It's working fine?

12825            MR. TRUHN:  Yes.

12826            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  So you are competing as a local independent against regional and national players?

12827            MR. TRUHN:  Yes.

12828            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  What do you see to be your advantages as a local independent?

12829            MR. TRUHN:  I think one of the biggest things that has helped us is that I grew up in that community.  I had 20 years of experience or more in that community when I started.  I went to school there and I played sports there, so I had some ins in the community, especially in the business side of things before we started.  It helped.  It went a long ways when we first got off the air.

12830            I think the background that I had in the radio business went a long way to helping us get off the ground as well.

12831            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank you.  So you think those are some similar advantages Mr. Yerxa would have here in Edmonton?

12832            MR. TRUHN:  A career in the business and growing up in this area and the family's history in the business, I don't think there is any doubt that John would make it successful.

12833            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank you.  And thank you for coming here today.

12834            MR. TRUHN:  Thank you.

12835            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Is it okay if I say Jonny instead of Mr. Chung?

12836            MR. CHUNG:  Yes.

12837            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  I'm quite surprised that somebody who is a soloist and a musician would be nervous speaking in front of three old ladies, but there you go.

12838            COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Speak for yourself.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

12839            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  And no need to be nervous.  I think you made it clear what you saw.

12840            I'm interested in the excitement.  Where did you say that you were attending school?

12841            MR. CHUNG:  I am at the University of Alberta.

12842            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  So there is talk around the university about this potential launch?

12843            MR. CHUNG:  Oh, yes.  Like my whole group of friends, there are a lot of Rock fans but there are a lot of Hip‑Hop fans as well, and this is a station that doesn't merge them but it gives them a mix and it also throws in some new local talent that they were interested in checking out.

12844            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Such as Jonny Chung.

12845            MR. CHUNG:  Yes, there is me and there are also a lot of other urban acts that I have noticed on the website.

12846            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  So when you say there is talk, how is the talk occurring?  Is this like blogs and different Facebook, or how is this talk occurring?

12847            MR. CHUNG:  Yes.  It's on Facebook.  You just go to school and it is through word‑of‑mouth.  There are no big posters or bulletins, but I believe John Yerxa also has ‑‑ one of his sons goes to University of Alberta, so his group of friends are pretty interested in what he is doing and how he is helping his dad.

12848            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Right.  Right.

12849            Just a little bit about your music.  Have you received any airplay anywhere?

12850            MR. CHUNG:  Just on CJSR a couple of times, on the Urban show there.

12851            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  You may not be aware as we went through this, but there are many applicants and there are many proposals to offer room and airplay to new and emerging artists, and particularly local Edmonton artists.

12852            So I think it is all just good news, what we heard all week here from all of the applicants and Mr. Yerxa as well was one of those.  It is one of many, so I think you will see growing opportunities in your community.

12853            Mr. Baig...?

12854            MR. BAIG:  That's correct.

12855            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Properly pronounced?

12856            MR. BAIG:  Yes, you did.

12857            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank you.  It is actually my scribbling writing here.  I didn't know what I had written.

12858            I am interested particularly in talking ‑‑ you talked about bringing in acts and, as a part‑time promoter, you said you are not looking at the headline acts; you are looking at the small and medium acts to bring them into Edmonton.

12859            Is that right?

12860            MR. BAIG:  That's just because of the budget that I run with.  I am strictly independent.  All the money that comes into my promotions is strictly from my own pocket.  So I'm not getting funded from any outside sources.

12861            I would love to put on larger shows and bring it larger artists, but right now that is just not feasible for me.  So I have to do what is in my means.

12862            Like I said, the driving force behind what I'm doing is more for the love and more because I know that there is an opportunity to present this type of shows and events and concerts because ‑‑ I mean, I would like to think we are one of the leaders, if not the leader in what we're doing with the type of shows and concerts that we are putting on.

12863            Like I said, it has been just over two years now and it is just getting better.  The turnouts have been great and the feedback has been nothing but positive.  So, yes.

12864            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  So these groups and performers you are bringing in, are they groups and performers that receive airplay here in Edmonton?

12865            MR. BAIG:  Some of them do.  Some of them mostly get airplay at the larger markets like Toronto and Vancouver, but they do definitely get airplay.

12866            Some of them are actually Canadian.  I usually catch most of these acts when they do their cross national tours.  So I work with them.

12867            A couple of acts I have brought two or three times and they have got great responses.  Like I said, they are small to medium.  I mean, I could get anywhere between a hundred to 800 people.  So I'm not filling up stadiums, but I am filling up some of the great small independent venues that are here in the city.

12868            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  I wanted to ask you ‑‑ and Mr. Chung you may also want to pipe in on this.  Radio does a few things, and two important things: one is that it entertains and the other is informs.  You are here speaking about obviously the music component about that and speaking about how it takes people from the iPod and maybe brings them back to radio.

12869            But how is it that from your perspective ‑‑ and I take this as a personal perspective.  I am not asking you to speak for all youth or for all people within your community.

12870            How do you stay informed?  If the access is through the iPod and through the web and so on, what is the source of information, you know, for you and your group?

12871            It is what radio does, right.  It combines information ‑‑

12872            MR. BAIG:  Right.

12873            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  ‑‑ and entertainment.

12874            MR. BAIG:  Right.

12875            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  So how do folks disenfranchise from radio?  The youth if they are using only the web and only MP3s and iPods and so on, what is the source for information?

12876            The web doesn't seem to me to provide a lot of local information.

12877            MR. BAIG:  Well, that is one of the reasons why, like I was saying, the iPods and MP3 players are limited on what they provide.  I mean, they are great for the music, but for radio format we are trying to take the selection of music that people can get online and on their iPods, transferring that to radio and adding the appeal of radio, which is being more interactive, which is being informative, because people still want that.

12878            I think if you mix the relevant information that people want with the music that they want, it is just a good mix.

12879            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  That is very fair.  I maybe should explain why this question came to me ‑‑

12880            MR. BAIG:  Okay.

12881            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  ‑‑ because I think you are there well, why am I speaking for all.  I'm just thinking, you are bringing in these concerts ‑‑

12882            MR. BAIG:  Okay.

12883            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  ‑‑ so even to promote these concerts, how do you inform?

12884            MR. BAIG:  Oh, okay.

12885            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  You know, because radio to me seems like a very obvious means of hitting your target audience, to letting them know you were bringing in a new band, a new group or whatever, and yet it would sound like the groups that you normally go to are disenfranchised from radio.

12886            MR. BAIG:  This is one of the points I mentioned to Mr. Yerxa especially, is that I'm in the business of promoting and a radio does seem like an obvious outlet.

12887            But the markets that they are targeting, especially The Bounce, isn't, first of all, the market that I'm going after.  I mean, it might hit some of the people, but for me to spend the money on radio ads and only hit a small percentage of who I'm going after, you know, didn't really make sense to me.

12888            That is one of the reasons why NEW 107 has the same target as I do.  For me to advertise on there as a promoter would make more sense and more ‑‑ you know, it would make more sense for me to spend the money to do that.

12889            Like I said, I am smaller and I do have budgets when I do have on the show, and radio promotion wasn't one of those budgets.  I just never thought it would be the best promotion for me.

12890            Most of our promotions is online and that seems to be the way it was.  Like I said, I have been in promotions for just over five years and when I first started we used to be very street‑level promotions.  Everything was about flyering, postering, hitting the retail spots, and it's great for that time period.  But in the last year or two I have slowly gone away from that type of promotion, and the promotions now have been more so online.

12891            And it has been more effective that way because the younger youth are always online, whether it is going to be on a website, on a blog site, on a discussion board, through e‑mail.  People are hitting up all these places and it saves a lot of time, it saves a lot of money.  And just the effectiveness of online promotions, that is the way I see everything going now.

12892            You can see that not even just through independent promotions like myself, but I work with Universal Urban, I work with Warner Urban here in the city, which are the two largest urban distributors of music in the country, and they have cut back their promotions on CDs and promotional materials and everything they do now is online.

12893            So when I ask them for promotional material, when I ask them for vinyl, when I ask them for anything to help me promote, they said, you know, we are moving towards online promotions now.  We will send you JPEGs.  We are going to send you MP3s and push it through online rather than pushing it on the street.

12894            So this is the trend that is happening now.  I mean, it's changing even on the promotional side.

12895            I don't know if that answers your question.

12896            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  No, it definitely answers my question.

12897            MR. BAIG:  Okay.

12898            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank you.  I think I'm trying to understand to what extent, you know, if we have this station, will it stimulate advertising from disenfranchised groups as well or is it that the target audience is really kind of pretty solid on their web and, you know, using the Internet as their primary source of information?

12899            MR. BAIG:  I think it opens up new opportunities for anyone who considered radio advertising but didn't because there wasn't a proper outlet for it.

12900            You know, like I said, The Bounce is great at what they do, but for an advertiser like myself who considers radio, it wasn't the best option for me and something like this is something that I would consider now just because it works better for me.

12901            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.  Thank you very much.

12902            MR. BAIG:  No problem.

12903            COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank all of you for coming.

12904            THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you all.  Your comments are very much appreciated and will certainly be taken into consideration.

12905            We are going to break now.  We have a Commission matter to deal with, as I mentioned earlier.

12906            So we will resume at 2:15.  Thank you.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1220 / Suspension à 1220

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1425 / Reprise à 1425

12907            THE SECRETARY:  I would now call Aboriginal Voices Radio, Laura Vinson, Canadian Rocky Mountain Festival and Western Canadian Music Alliance to appear as a panel and present their interventions.

12908            We will start with the Aboriginal Voices Radio.

12909            Please introduce yourself and you will then have ten minutes to make your presentation.

INTERVENTION

12910            MR. CARDINAL:  Good morning, Madam Chair, Members of the Commission, Commission staff and ladies and gentlemen.

12911            My name is Lewis Cardinal.  I am the Chair of the Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc., AVR, Board of Directors.  I live here in Edmonton and with me today is Jamie Hill, the CEO of AVR.

12912            I am attaching biographical information about Mr. Hill and myself to your copy of this presentation.

12913            Before we begin I would like to express thanks for the letters of intervention filed in support of the Pattison application on behalf of AVR by national aboriginal leaders and organizations, including:  Phil Fontaine, National Chief, Assembly of First Nations; George Erasmus, CO‑Chair, Royal Commission on Aboriginal People; Vera Powis Tobobondung, President, National Association of Friendship Centres, and Beverley Jacobs, President, Native Women's Association of Canada.

12914            I would also like to acknowledge and thank local aboriginal organizations and leaders here in Edmonton for letters of interventions filed in support of the Pattison application on behalf of AVR, including:  Glori Meldrum, President, Little Warriors Society, Edmonton; Dean Brown, Executive Director, Canadian Native Friendship Centre, Edmonton; George Vass, General Manager, Apeetogosan (Métis) Developments Inc.; Giuseppe Albi, General Manager, Events Edmonton; Dale Hudjik, Program Director, Guru Digital Arts College; Jared Sinclair Gibson, Executive Director, Sun and Moon; Jack White, Indigenous Elders Cultural Resource Centre; Muriel Stanley Venne, President for the Institute for the Advancement of Aboriginal Women; Adrienne Lachance, Director of Yellow Ribbon Cultural Dancers; Clayton Kootenay, Executive Director of Oteenow Employment and Training Society; and Len Mundorf, Public Relations Chair for Teen Time, Edmonton.

12915            I am now ready to begin our presentation.

12916            Aboriginal Voices Radio appreciates the opportunity to appear before you today in support of the application by Pattison for a licence to establish a new FM station here in Edmonton.  Our presentation today will (a) update you on our current financial situation; (b) explain how we will utilize the Canadian Content Development Funds pledged by Pattison; and (c) touch on a few of the reasons why Pattison's funding is important to us and the Canadian broadcasting system.

12917            We have touched on many subjects in other appearances before you.  We have indicated that the aboriginal community is Canada's poorest and most vulnerable community.  We have emphasized the need for a national urban aboriginal service in major urban centers where the aboriginal population is growing at an unprecedented rate.  And we have touched on the important role that free over the air radio can play to help a people with old traditions rejuvenate their languages, cultures and identities.

12918            But we have spent little time explaining the extent of the financial challenges we face to establish a national radio service dedicated to serving aboriginal people.

12919            Madam Chair, ladies and gentlemen of the Commission, AVR requires $10 million per annum to carry on the operation of a credible, robust, full‑service national aboriginal broadcasting transmitting undertaking with stations in Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Regina, Saskatoon, Kitchener, Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal.  $10 million is not an unreasonable estimate of what it will cost to operate the network.  It costs that much or more just to operate a single commercial station in Toronto.

12920            As you may know, AVR has received substantial benefits package pledges since it was awarded its first licence in 2000.  One may think that this would be sufficient to cover the start‑up costs required to launch a national radio service.  However, the Canadian Content Development funding is spread over a 16‑year time horizon that began in 2000 and continues through to 2015.

12921            As a result, the funds paid over the 16‑year period average only $962,000 per annum, or less than $1 million per year.  That is hardly enough to sustain the operation of a national radio service with nine stations across Canada.

12922            AVR will need almost all of the $962,000 per annum just to keep our nine transmitters on the air.  This is before we invest in programming.

12923            We note that CCD packages are not adjusted for inflation.  As you know, $1.00 received in year seven of a benefits package is worth less, far less than $1.00 in one year.  It is in fact nearly one‑third less.

12924            Moreover, because of inflation, while the money AVR receives diminishes in value each passing year, the cost to operate keeps going up.  So the task of securing AVR's financial viability is a never ending battle that we have been waging for ten years.  It is job one for us.

12925            AVR is currently in discussions with the Commission on ways to establish adequate stable long‑term funding.  Until we find a way to achieve this elusive goal we cannot survive without CCD funding.

12926            Last Friday was a day of celebration for us because of your decision approving Pattison's application to transfer its AM station in Vancouver to the FM band.  As a result of your decision, Pattison's commitment to contribute $3.0 million over seven years to assist AVR has now been confirmed.

12927            We thank you and our friends at Pattison for this timely lifeline.

12928            While we are very grateful for Pattison's proposed funding, the $428,571 per annum that we will receive will merely replace funding that expires at the end of next year from another broadcaster.

12929            Therefore, in order to advance beyond where we are, the funding proposed by Pattison in these Edmonton proceedings is crucial to us.  This funding will help us to: sustain existing operations; meet the daily news and local programming requirements that come on stream for Edmonton and each of our other markets next April; and launch our stations in Regina and Saskatoon.

12930            But Pattison's funding is about much more than AVR's financial capacity to grow and develop its service.  It is about access, giving aboriginal people access to the Canadian radio broadcasting system.

12931            As you know, there are no aboriginal programs on the CBC's main network in the south, few if any aboriginal programs in major urban centers on private sector commercial stations, and only a limited patchwork of aboriginal programs on campus and community stations across Canada.

12932            Lack of access is also a problem on aboriginal stations.  If you listen to the overwhelming majority of aboriginal stations in Canada, you will hear very few if any songs by aboriginal artists and musicians.  Instead, they play commercial Pop Rock and Country music from the American charts by non‑aboriginal artists and musicians.

12933            In addition, most aboriginal stations feature very little aboriginal enriched spoken word programming.  As a result, it is often difficult to tell the difference between aboriginal stations and commercial private sector stations.

12934            By comparison, all of the music featured on AVR is by aboriginal artists and musicians.  Moreover, 50 per cent of the music we play is aboriginal Canadian music by aboriginal Canadian artists and musicians.

12935            In addition, AVR is the only station in Canada with an enriched spoken word commitment of nearly 20 hours per week.  Like everything else we do, all of our enriched spoken word programming is distinctly aboriginal.

12936            In the circumstances, we believe AVR is the only radio service in Canada featuring distinctly aboriginal music and spoken word programming on a dedicated 24‑hour basis 7 days a week.  To our mind AVR is an important national cultural institution.  It stands alone among all stations in Canada providing aboriginal people with free and unfettered access to the Canadian broadcasting system through its network of stations in major urban centers.

12937            But lack of funding constitutes a significant and ongoing challenge, forcing AVR to operate a skeleton service which lacks the financial capacity to provide aboriginal people with meaningful access.

12938            What is meaningful access?  In our view, meaningful access means giving aboriginal people the quality of news and spoken word programming that they deserve.  It means providing aboriginal people with the quality of programming that Canada's broadcasting system provides non‑aboriginal people.

12939            At present, AVR can only offer old and tired spoken word programming repeated over and over again because we do not have the human and financial resources to develop fresh, new and vital aboriginal programming every day.

12940            In effect, the funding proposed by Pattison in this licensing process is essential if we are to provide aboriginal people with the quality of access enjoyed by non‑aboriginal people on non‑aboriginal radio stations.

12941            In conclusion, according to financial information provided by the CRTC, there are more than 600 privately owned commercial radio stations in Canada.  These stations achieve annual revenues in excess of $1.4 billion.  Over the years, commercial broadcasters have built large and profitable companies through the use of scarce public frequencies.  Many of the broadcasters who benefited from the profits gleaned from the use of these frequencies later sold their companies, reaping millions and in some cases billions of dollars in the process because of the asset value of radio and television frequencies.

12942            In the period between 2003 and 2006, the Commission licensed 233 new over the air radio stations, including 76 new stations in 2006 alone.  We do not begrudge the use of spectrum by any broadcasters, aboriginal or non‑aboriginal, but since existing aboriginal and non‑aboriginal broadcasters feature mostly mainstream commercial programming, AVR has a critical and strategic role to play in giving aboriginal people access to Canada's radio broadcasting system.

12943            Until long‑term solutions are found to fund AVR, AVR cannot fulfil its role unless you approve interim CD funding opportunities as they come along, including the funding opportunity before you as proposed by Pattison.

12944            We therefore urge you to approve Pattison's application for one of the four frequencies available here in Edmonton.

12945            Thank you.

12946            THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

12947            We will now proceed with Laura Vinson.

12948            You have ten minutes to make your presentation.

INTERVENTION

12949            MS VINSON:  (Off microphone)

12950            ... a little louder there.  So I'm hoping that you will be answering (Cree language spoken), which means I am fine.

12951            I am an aboriginal recording artist and singer/songwriter.  I have about 30‑some years in the music business.  We won't go there.  But quite a few CDs, awards, nominations, that sort of thing.  The ones I'm most proud of are the Queen's Golden Jubilee Medal from Senator Chalifoux; a Woman of Vision Award from Leslie ‑‑ you probably know who I mean ‑‑ and the Esquio Award from Muriel Stanley Venne.

12952            I don't say that to brag about things but just to let you know what my connection is to the aboriginal community here in the city and in the musical community, as well.

12953            I was Executive Director at Ben Calf Rope Society for seven and a half years as well as my 15 years there.  I can't say enough about what he has already said.

12954            I have been the recipient of FACTOR grants, also Canadian Council grants, and I have been a juror for both of those, as well as a juror for the Canadian Aboriginal Music Awards.  I am also a teacher.

12955            So when I got this thing from my friend Gerry Siemens from Pattison, I was absolutely ecstatic that somebody was going to put some money into emerging aboriginal artists, into things like the station, the radio station that they are proposing, that would just be such an invaluable outlet for our music.

12956            The interesting part of their input into FACTOR is that they will also be emphasizing the grants going to western Canada.

12957            As a juror on the FACTOR committees I know where a lot of the money goes, and as a juror for the Canadian Aboriginal Music Awards I know where a lot of those awards go as was well, and they don't go ‑‑ they go disproportionately not to western Canada.

12958            There is so much going on down east in the aboriginal music industry, it is a real eye‑opener and the people out here don't know that.  Our artists out here are not getting the kind of chance that they should.

12959            Like I say, I have been in the industry here for many, many years.  Had there been this kind of opportunity for myself and the AAA station that they are also proposing, I probably wouldn't be sitting here right now.  I would be touring instead of building a bed and breakfast in the mountains.

12960            I just can't say enough about the kind of input that they are going to do that will help aboriginal people particularly, but also western Canadian artists and emerging artists.

12961            Any time you put money into the Edmonton Folk Festival, hey, that's got to be great.

12962            As a teacher, I am totally blown away by the fact that they have a fund that is going to purchase musical instruments for kids in schools, because heaven knows, especially in the school like Ben Calf Rope School there is not a musical instrument in that school except for a hand drum and they are not getting the chances that they need because there isn't the money there.

12963            I don't think I can say too much more than that, but a really exciting proposal I think.

12964            THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

12965            We will now proceed with Canadian Rocky Mountain Festival.

12966            Please introduce yourself and you will then have ten minutes for your presentation.

INTERVENTION

12967            MR. CONNELL:  Good afternoon, Madam Chairman, Members of the Commission.  Thank you for allowing me to speak before you today.

12968            Just to preface my presentation, I would just like to say that I am a little bit in awe of this whole thing; I mean, making a presentation in front of the CRTC, the broadcast industry which is a huge business in Canada.  I'm just an old music teacher that believes in kids and believes in the power of music and I think that's where our talent comes from.

12969            Anyhow, I am here in support of the application by the Pattison Broadcast Group.

12970            Although I support all the initiatives in this package of Canadian Content Development put forth by this application, I am here to speak directly to the importance of the Save the Music Foundation.

12971            As a former music educator for 17 years, and someone who has been involved in music and the music industry for 39 years, I firmly believe that the development of Canadian music talent begins at the grassroots in our schools.

12972            This proposal by the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group supports Canadian Content Development on all fronts, from the Save the Music Foundation involved in the beginnings of music talent to the culmination of a musical career with The River Performance Project.

12973            When you talk to musicians of all genres or read interviews from famous musicians, it is inevitable that they speak about how they were influenced by someone when they were young.  The development of talent starts when we are young and usually in our schools.  By assisting the development of music programs we will be nurturing the environment that is necessary to attract students to music.  The more students that are positively influenced by music, the greater that pool of Canadian talent will be, which will result eventually in more Canadian content over our radio waves.

12974            If we are serious about developing Canadian content, we need to assist our school music programs where it all begins.  The Save the Music Foundation, which operates at arm's length from the Pattison broadcast Group, does exactly this.

12975            The foundation provides the needed funds to assist school music programs.  Although music programs are part of our curriculum, they rarely receive enough funding.  Most programs need financial assistance with instruments, with equipment, with performance projects, with travel, with almost every aspect of a music program.

12976            This is what the Foundation does.  By helping to develop good music programs, the Save the Music Foundation is aiding the development of Canadian talent right where it starts in our schools.

12977            The Pattison organization believes in the importance and value of music education.  They just don't give lip service to this whole idea.  This is proven by the involvement they have in the Save the Music Foundation, in the Canadian Rocky Mountain Festival and projects such as the Chandos Pattison Auditorium at the Pacific Academy.

12978            To put it bluntly, the Pattison Broadcast Group put their money where their mouth is.

12979            I have come to know the Jim Pattison Broadcast Group over the past four years as a major supporter of the Canadian Rocky Mountain Festival which takes place annually at the Banff Center.  Through the festival, the Jim Pattison Group has seen the power of music education in action and how it positively influences the youth of Canada.

12980            Every year over 3,000 young Canadians attend the festival in Banff and become rejuvenated and motivated by all the festival activities.  All of them become better citizens because of the discipline and commitment it takes just to get to the festival.  Many of these students realize how important music is to their lives because of the festival experience and end up in that pool of Canadian talent.

12981            Former festival participants are professional musicians all over the Canadian music scene:  from Russ Broom, who is Jann Arden's guitar player, to Linda Brown who was a fulltime member of the Calgary Philharmonic Orchestra; from the Churko Brothers who perform with Shania Twain to Stella Steledo(ph) who performs on Broadway.

12982            I found it very interesting that the Junos in Calgary two months ago, when I was watching, the bands that backed up both Michael Bublé and Feist were made up of kids who had been to the Canadian Rocky Mountain Festival.

12983            The festival is a place where we create talent.  I would invite Members of the Commission, anybody from the CRTC, please come out to the festival some time at the Banff Center and see the development of Canadian talent in action.

12984            So we know that by assisting school music programs through projects like the Save the Music Foundation and the Canadian Rocky Mountain Festival we are indeed helping to develop Canadian talent and therefore Canadian content for the radio stations.

12985            On a personal note, you need to know that the Pattison Broadcast Group is genuinely interested in music, which is the backbone of this industry.  The Jim Pattison Broadcast Group does not support the development of Canadian talent only to achieve a radio licence.  On an ongoing basis, in various ways and in many areas they support the development of Canadian talent.

12986            The package of Canadian Content Development presented in this application is simply an addition to what thi