TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

                      SUBJECT / SUJET:

Various broadcasting applications /

Diverses demandes de radiodiffusion

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

Sussex Ballroom                       Salle Sussex

Future Inns Cambridge                 Future Inns Cambridge

700 Hespeler Road                     700, chemin Hespeler

Cambridge, Ontario                    Cambridge (Ontario)

October 22, 2008                      Le 22 octobre 2008

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

                 Transcript / Transcription

Various broadcasting applications /

Diverses demandes de radiodiffusion

BEFORE / DEVANT:

Michel Arpin                      Chairperson / Président

Rita Cugini                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Elizabeth Duncan                  Commissioner / Conseillère

Peter Menzies                     Commissioner / Conseiller

Stephen Simpson                   Commissioner / Conseiller

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Cindy Ventura                     Secretary / Sécretaire

Joe Aguiar                        Hearing Manager /

                                  Gérant de l'audience

Anthony McIntyre                  Legal Counsel

                                  Conseiller Juridique

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

Sussex Ballroom                   Salle Sussex

Future Inns Cambridge             Future Inns Cambridge

700 Hespeler Road                 700, chemin Hespeler

Cambridge, Ontario                Cambridge (Ontario)

October 22, 2008                  Le 22 octobre 2008

- iv -

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

                                                 PAGE / PARA

PHASE III (Cont'd)

INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:

London Silverbacks Football Team                  618 / 3666

North by Northeast                                624 / 3687

London Majors Baseball Corporation                632 / 3722

Great Lakes Blues Society                         648 / 3811

Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs            659 / 3820

Downchild Blues Band                              669 / 3869

PHASE IV

REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:

My Broadcasting Corporation                       680 / 3931

Frank Torres (OBCI)                               681 / 3939

United Christian Broadcasters Canada              684 / 3961

Blackburn Radio Inc.                              689 / 3992

Evanov Communications Inc. (OBCI)                 696 / 4034

Rogers Broadcasting Limited                       697 / 4045

CTV Limited                                       699 / 4059

Forest City Radio Inc.                            702 / 4080

Sound of Faith Broadcasting                       708 / 4118

- v -

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

                                                 PAGE / PARA

PHASE I

PRESENTATION BY / PRESENTATION PAR:

Frank Torres (OBCI)                               719 / 4186

Blackburn Radio Inc.                              768 / 4506

591989 B.C. Ltd.                                  814 / 4762

Guelph Broadcasting Corporation                   859 / 5032

PHASE II

INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:

Guelph Broadcasting Corporation                   909 / 5358

             Cambridge, Ontario / Cambridge (Ontario)

‑‑‑ Upon resuming on Wednesday, October 22, 2008

    at 0902 / L'audience reprend le mercredi,

    22 octobre 2008 à 0902

3659             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.

3660             Madam Secretary...?

3661             ASSISTANT SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

3662             Good morning, everyone.  As a reminder, please turn off your cell phones and beepers and blackberries as it is causing interference with our internal system, please.

3663             We now have the London Silverbacks Football Team, North by Northeast and London Majors Baseball Corporation to appear as a panel and present their intervention.

3664             We will start with the London Silverbacks Football Team.

3665             Please present yourself for the record and you will have 10 minutes to make your presentation.

INTERVENTION

3666             MR. LAZAR:  My name is Alan Lazar and I'm here on behalf of the London Silverbacks Football Team.  We are a men's professional minor league football team located in London, Ontario.  This year we just completed our fifth season of operation.

3667             We take part in the North American Football League, which is the world's largest football league with approximately 130 teams across North America.

3668             We are proud to boast the distinction of being the minor league affiliate to the Toronto Argos.  We had great success.  We just finished an undefeated season and, unfortunately, lost in our third round of the playoffs, as well as winning a championship title in our league last season.

3669             Our team is comprised of adult men aged 18‑plus.  I believe it gives men opportunities to continue competing in football in a way that's pretty much unavailable to them, as well as competing on an international scale.

3670             I believe it adds a lot to the community in that we are involved in a lot of charitable organizations, into a lot of high schools, a lot of children's groups, et cetera.

3671             We believe that after the introduction to pod fm we have been really pleased to see something like this possibly being introduced to the London market, as the hurdle we have faced over the years here in London has been a limited opportunity to be able to contact especially individuals, the younger age groups, especially the high schools and that that we are trying to get into, et cetera.  We pride ourselves on being a family event, good quality football.

3672             We have probably boasted a great number of professional athletes coming into our organization as well as going out of it, and we believe we offer great opportunities for individuals of all ages, but especially the toughest hurdle has been finding any kind of venue to contact, especially there like around 18 to 25 there.

3673             We have two college radio stations in our town, but one of the hurdles in dealing with that has been the fact that the personnel and the personality of the station sometimes changes from semester to semester so there is no consistent venue to market our team.

3674             As well, a lot of the media is so varied within our city in that some of them will focus purely on ‑‑ whether it be major league sports purely that they don't look at any of the local content which makes it really tough for an organization such as ourselves to get the word out there and build our fan base, which has been an interesting thing for us in that last year we were fortunate enough to win a league title and that.

3675             Again, this being the world's largest football league and we play American rules football.  We are just one of three Canadian teams in this league.  What we accomplished was, many would think, pretty significant, yet virtually no media interest, response whatsoever with it, despite our usual continued efforts to always send out media releases to the local media.  It was completely left forgotten.

3676             Coming off of a season like that, here we entered this year, we had a great season as well that we continued the undefeated season here, and yet due to the fact that there is a lack of a good venue for us to be able to get out to our fans, to get out the interest there, we have seen our numbers dwindle, which really from a business point of view has definitely made it challenging to continue improving and providing the opportunities that we are working on.

3677             We believe there that with pod fm it gives us a great avenue to (a) continue to improve our fan base, which has really ‑‑ we have been very fortunate in that the product we provide has been good, that it retains most of the people who come out.  It's been a great percentage of people that when they come out to our game they usually enjoy it and will come back, but it's building upon that and trying to continue to get the word out there has been the biggest hurdle.

3678             So that has been one of the reasons why pod fm has been so appealing to us, as well as the interactive nature of the station we think is a great appeal.

3679             We have seen a lot of demand from the people who have been involved with our team to want to know what's going on with the team, especially when we are on the road.  We are travelling to various places in the States.  Our championship game last year was in Las Vegas, this year it's in Atlanta.  So to try to meet that demand in interest we had to go out and ourselves set up a webcast to allow our fans to be able to stay involved, knowing that unfortunately while we didn't expect to get play‑by‑play from local media or anything like that, but just to keep at least some sort of regular score update, some sort of standing, some sort of something for the people who are interested in our team, because there has been a lack of opportunity to provide that information to our fans.  We have had to take it on ourselves and try and develop the proper website as well as the webcasts, et cetera.

3680             That's where we really believe that when we first were introduced to pod fm that it's a really exciting opportunity, that here our fans will now have a way to be involved, to interact, to possibly hear what's going on with the Silverbacks and even report to other possible fans what's taking place at a Silverbacks game.

3681             I believe the format will help us get out there to potential fans, as well is to make our fans who are already involved and have been diehard being there with us for the last five years there, make them feel validated that there is something going on and that Silverbacks are supported as being London's premier minor league football team.

3682             And that's what we are looking at going forward, is we think it's a really exciting opportunity and we are glad to be here to support that.

3683             Thank you very much.

3684             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

3685             ASSISTANT SECRETARY:  Thank you.

3686             North by Northeast, please introduce yourself and you will have 10 minutes to make your presentation.

INTERVENTION

3687             MR. McLEAN:  Great.  Thank you.

3688             My name is Andy McLean.  I am the Managing Director of the North by Northeast Music Festival.  It's also a film festival and a conference based in Toronto.

3689             For those of you who are not familiar with the event, it's our 15th year coming up and we take place this year June 17 to 21 all over the city of Toronto.

3690             It's my pleasure to be here this morning to support the Rogers pod fm application and particularly the pod Road Tour which is the CCD component that we are here and looking at.  I think it's a very exciting development and initiative.

3691             It's very ambitious, but I think it's one of the most important initiatives to help emerging Canadian bands, especially in the current climate, the way the music industry has developed over the past 10, 15 years especially.  I really feel it's time to concentrate on an initiative that is based back on the old‑fashioned idea of getting a band on the road.  So that's where we are going to go with this proposal.

3692             I just wanted to perhaps give a little bit of a background first.  Many of you I'm sure you know the music industry has changed hugely.  North by Northeast was started 15 years ago, I am one of the founding owners.

3693             Because Indy, the word "Indy" has nothing to do with a Molson car race, it's all about being an independent band, being an entrepreneurial band, being a band traditionally, a traditional model for a band or an artist.  When I say "band" I mean performing artist, it could be a singer/songwriter as well, but I will just use the word "band".

3694             They traditionally would wait around and try and write songs and develop their craft and trying get a buzz going and wait for a record company to come and sign them and pluck them out of obscurity and send them into stardom.  This is a system that existed for a long time, unfortunately it doesn't exist really anymore.  For all kinds of reasons that traditional model no longer is relevant.

3695             In fact it's a good thing.  I think there were many bad aspects of that situation, particularly in the '80s and '90s.  As music became more and more corporatized you really were limited as your choices as a musician into how you could connect with your audience.  I mean let's remember what this is all about, it's about an artist with an idea, a musical idea and a concept who wants to connect with an audience.

3696             So what would happen is you really ‑‑ there were two things, you needed to record your music because you can go play for your family and you can try and do a little tour if you can, but most of the time it's restrictive in terms of getting out there.

3697             So you need to record your music, then you need to find a way to distribute it and a record company would fulfil both those roles.  This is the traditional record deal.  The record company was the bank, they would advance to the money, you go out and record your album, they would own most of it and then you would hopefully try and sell some records and make some money that way.

3698             The second thing of course was getting the record distributed.  The record companies controlled all the distribution.  That was a way for you to reach your audience and, if all things lined up, your record is released, the radio of course extremely important in terms of promoting it, your fan base would be built, mostly probably through radio first but also a groundswell, and then you get a chance to go out and play for them.

3699             This would be done with the support of a label called Tour Supports and they would support you in your efforts to go out and play.  Most of the time at a loss because you would still be building your career, but they would try and get you started.  And that's kind of what would happen.

3700             And then all of a sudden I guess the Internet came along and changed all of that.  So the two main reasons ‑‑ and digitization of music as well.  Bands no longer need help really in recording as much.  Everybody can make a recording.  Everybody can get their music up online now and try and build a fan base through social networking and all of that.

3701             Unfortunately, what's missing of course is still an ability to get out there and play in front of a live audience.  So this is what the pod Road Tour is really all about.  It's about authenticity, it's about gaining faith and respect from an audience, earning that respect actually.

3702             The bad side of the other system where you are kind of top‑down and promoted first before you really had earned the right to go out and demand loyalty from an audience, whereas now the Indy route, if we can go back to that, the Indy route is bands preferring to go that route in many ways.  It's a lot harder.  It means that they have to struggle in obscurity for quite a long time.  Certainly they would be able to record their music, get it up on their own website and try and build a fan base.

3703             But some of the good things about a record label obviously was the mass marketing that they could throw and the amount of budget that they could spend to promote an act.

3704             So an independent act now is still faced with a major issue of how do I get my music out to people?  How do I connect with them?  Music in the end it's about going into a live venue and just having that musical experience.  It's an emotional ‑‑ it's an emotional investment on both sides.

3705             So this idea is to take emerging bands ‑‑ take three emerging bands from the London area and give them the opportunity to go out and play a really good tour.

3706             North by Northeast has the expertise and the background in terms of pulling this together.  We have 3,000 submissions from all over the world, about two‑thirds are Canadian.  Every year our team of listeners go through the process of judging all these bands.  We come up with about 500 that showcase.

3707             Regionally we can break out all of the bands that are coming here.  So we can look at all the bands that would come from the 519 London area and we can, through that process of constant listening and weeding out as the strongest bands, we can get to after the end of the festival we can pick three that we think are a pretty good bet, so these bands are going to be going somewhere.

3708             And what this program will do is offer them a top class agent, a top class promoter, a publicist, all of the things that they can't afford, all of the things that they would never be able to do themselves and we can send them out on a 12 day, two or three week tour to some key venues.

3709             And this will be the missing piece.  This is the missing piece between the fan base that they built up online between the records and MP3s that they have sent out themselves.  It's an opportunity for them to really build with their audience and develop that kind of loyalty and authenticity that I think was missing in the past.

3710             So North by Northeast as an organization can provide the credible structure for all this to happen.  You know, we can get them Nickelback's agent to actually book this tour, we have those kind of connections.

3711             It's a kind of dream opportunity for a band.  It's something that is a tremendous payback with the station.  One of the most exciting things also is that while the band is on tour and performing in the old‑fashioned live way, there's a whole new side of the interaction through the website of the radio station.

3712             The savvy kind of 15 to 35s, particularly younger end of that demo, are all looking online.  So they can discover these bounds so they can discover these bands.  They can discover this radio station online and then they can also enjoy what is being put on stage through a live experience.

3713             So the two really go together.  I think that's a really innovative approach to what we are doing.

3714             There is interaction between the bands, they are going to be creating content themselves while they are on the road.  These three acts are going to be blogging, they are going to be making videos, they are going to be sending stuff to the website, and it's a way to have this more personal interaction with the audience within the catchment area of the pod fm reach.

3715             So to me it's got all of the aspects of the old school, going out and just playing, of the era when you had a record company.  We are kind of not being a record company, we are supplying some of the great promotional aspects that they had.  And of course it's all up to date with the Internet, social networking, all of those sides that are working.

3716             So that in the end these three bands are going to come out with more fans, there is no doubt.  I have no doubt about it.  They are going to make more connections, they are going to be able to sell the CDs, sell their downloads, either online or straight off the stage after the gig, and we will put together a tour that will be top class and these bands I think will come out of it a lot further ahead with their career than they would have previously.  So that's why I am here.

3717             Oh, I have two minutes left, but I think I have kind of hit most of the main points and I think I will just stop there and thank you very much for allowing me to make the presentation.

3718             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. McLean.

3719             ASSISTANT SECRETARY:  Thank you.

3720             London Majors Baseball Corporation.

3721             Please introduce yourself for the record.  You have 10 minutes.

INTERVENTION

3722             MR. DART:  Hi, my name is Scott Dart.  I am the owner of the London Majors baseball team.  I have owned the team now for five years and, as any sporting business would tell you, the younger that you can get the fans in the better it is for down the road.

3723             For us it's been a little bit of a struggle getting the younger fans out and we have really had to shy away from more media advertising and we have had to go more door to door and to the schools to actually get the participation of the younger kids.

3724             For us, the younger kids represent a huge opportunity for us.  For them to come to the games, we think that we are actually a really good family destination, but we are also a destination for younger kids where there is not a lot to do for the younger generation.  We feel that high calibre baseball that we offer is definitely an entertainment value for that age group.

3725             So one of the things that we have been having a tough time doing is how do we set our goals of strategy with regards to the media.

3726             To this point we haven't had a radio station in London that can hit that younger age group for us.  Right now the way that we see it is, we have to get the younger age group in and not only the 15‑year‑olds to the 20‑year‑olds, but also the older group as well that is, say the 30 to 35 range.  The reason why that age group is so important to us, that's the age where there's a lot of young families.

3727             So that's our secondary target because we figure that if we are offering a good destination for family entertainment, good, clean family entertainment, then we want the families that have the younger kids to bring them because then that will be our future fans as well going forward.

3728             To this point we just haven't had top of mind awareness for our team.  Over the past five years we have really ‑‑ we went from probably under 100 fans again to now we are actually just over 400 and the majority of that segment that we actually have been successful with is the older clientele, the 50 to 65 range.

3729             What we want to do is, we want to make sure that we are going after the demographic that suits our team, and that would be to make it so that the younger kids can start to have our players as role models, mentors, that sort of thing.  At this stage we can't do that using radio at all because they are just not set up right now to handle that age group.

3730             And we have tried in the past actually where we have done some marketing with some of the radio stations.  We have been on some morning programs and stuff like that and it's fantastic for our older groups, but we are not getting any of the kids.  Like when we ask them, you know, how did you hear about our London Majors baseball, it's almost 100 per cent of the time it is from oh, when you guys came out to our school, when you had players come out to our assemblies, that sort of thing.

3731             So nothing has been a success on the radio front, and even on ‑‑ you know, I'm sidetracked here, but even on the paper front as well we haven't had this success for the younger fans that we are looking for.

3732             So for us to be able to build a top of mind awareness for our team, we really need to have that media outlet that we can actually touch that age group and we feel that, you know, in reviewing everything that Rogers is doing for pod fm it actually would be beneficial for us and would be an avenue that we could start to look at strategically is going after, because currently we just don't have that and we are very limited.

3733             The only radio that we do currently where we get steady presence and is coverage is actually a station that's outside of London.  The reason why that happens is because our PA announcer actually works at the radio station.  So I think that if we didn't even have him there, I don't even know if we would get the kind of carry time that we would need to even have just our scores and our updates and what's kind of going on with the team to be that kind of channel for our fans to hear about us.

3734             And that's at the older demographic and it's not even reaching the younger generation, which is what we need.

3735             The second thing that I wanted to mention was, our team itself is actually ‑‑ I'm not sure if anybody here knows what the InterCounty Baseball League is, but our league itself is comprised of young players.  So our youngest player this year was 18 years old and our oldest player was 27.  So it falls right into this category.

3736             And for us, you know, we get the feedback of what's going on with radio and media and stuff like that directly from our players and they even tell us that for them to get what they want, our pregame and that sort of thing, there is no radio stations being played.  And it's directly impacted because it's not the music that they want to hear.  There is no music that they want to listen to being played on a current radio station that we can get.

3737             So every single pregame, after game, every single bit of it is downloaded music so that they can actually get the content that they want.

3738             I think that with the application today for Rogers, I think that would probably change how our players view it as well, and that's who we deal with on a regular basis, and how we interconnect with, you know, what's important to them.  Currently, right now, you know, what we said what type of sound system do you need, there was nothing to do with well, we need this to be able to pick up "X" number of radio stations or anything like that, it was all, you know, we need somewhere to dock our iPod and that was pretty much it.

3739             The other thing as well, like for our updates and that, even though we are getting the word out to our older demographics and they are ‑‑ we do hear it that they do hear us on their radio stations that their preferences are, we are not hearing it from any of our younger fans.

3740             And when we hear about ‑‑ sorry, when we ask them about, you know, do you know where we are in the standings?  Do you know how our players are doing?  None of them know.  They have no idea what position we are in, like whether we are in first place or last place.  And that's important to us.  We really need that kind of recognition so that we can build that connection between our players and between that age group to have our fan base started.

3741             The younger generation is going to be our future fans and we have to keep mining at the younger demographic to be able to build that, because right now it's affecting our revenues and our revenue streams going forward if we are not able to bring in the younger generation to recognize what our program is about, how good of a level this is of baseball, where it fits within the entertainment industry for sports entertainment within the city of London.

3742             That's what we really need to see more of, is a station that can actually do that for us.  And not only us, there are a lot of other teams in the city that they are being missed out on.  You know, they hear about it and stuff like that, they hear about the different teams that are in the city of London, but they are not actually hearing the details of those teams and being able to recognize and do player profiles, that sort of thing, which strategically would fit well with our advertising campaigns going forward.

3743             Because any time that you can build ‑‑ as you guys know, any time you can build the connection between fan and player it's going to make them want to come back and want to come out and be a part of that experience.  And with our location in London and with the amount of success that we have had with the team, now is our opportunity.  Like we have been building to this for five years and this year we unfortunately lost out in the finals in a game seven, but we had 5,000 people at our game, which is capacity crowd.

3744             So we need to be able to latch onto the younger demographics and pull them along to make sure that they become fans going forward, because if not we are missing a whole segment of our fan base that we can't get in touch with, that we can't connect with.  And that's the big thing for us.

3745             I hear about it as well from other people that are associates of mine who have small businesses, the same thing.  Like I have a friend who actually owns ‑‑ he installs blinds and shutters and he can't reach that younger demographic either, which is what he's looking for is the new homeowners.

3746             And we talked about ‑‑ you know, we talked back and forth about how do we attract people to our respective businesses.  And he's in the same mind frame where he can't get that younger group.  You know, they are just getting out, they are just starting off, they are just buying their first new home and they are looking to ‑‑ you know, he wants them to buy blinds and shutters for their house, but he can't reach them.

3747             And that's one of the things that we feel strong ‑‑ why I felt strongly enough to want to come here today to support this, because it's not just one specific group within the city or one specific business or one industry, this covers all of us.  Like we all need to ‑‑ we all need to look at the younger generation and the younger demographics for our businesses to be successful.

3748             For me personally this is a huge opportunity, is to get the younger demographics into the park to see the type of level of baseball that we can offer.

3749             You know, families with young kids, it's an inexpensive night out and it's a way to kind of bring back families back together again and to do stuff together.  We feel that with this we can start to target our marketing and our media towards them so that we can start to get that fan base out to, one, help on the family values side, but, you know, like any business we are also looking to match our revenues with that.

3750             So I want to thank you very much for allowing me to come and speak before you today, but I also want to let you know that I wholeheartedly support this and really feel that this would be a huge benefit for not only us but for a lot of other businesses as well that are targeting the younger demographic.

3751             Thank you.

3752             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Dart.

3753             I'm asking Commissioner Cugini to ask questions to this review.

3754             Thank you.

3755             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you very much and good morning to all three of you and for making the trip here to Cambridge to appear before us this morning.

3756             I just have a couple of questions and they are going to be both applicable to you, Mr. Dart and to Mr. Lazar because I am interested in knowing for example in your typical season how many fans do come out to see your games?

3757             MR. LAZAR:  I think this year we were ‑‑ I know that we were definitely down from previous years.  I think this year we were right around 300 to 400, tops, including ‑‑ our last playoff game, I think, possibly topped out at 400.  It has been dropping significantly over the years with lack of exposure.

3758             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And you, Mr. Dart?

3759             MR. DART:  For our regular season, not counting the playoffs, our average fan attendance was just over 500, and then, in the playoffs, it kept ramping up until our final game, where we had over 5,000 people.

3760             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And not even the community channel in London, or the CTV local television station in London covers your games at all, not even the results?

3761             MR. DART:  They cover the results, but we still don't get it for the younger demographics that are not hearing about us on TV.  I don't know if it is because it's just not something that they listen to ‑‑

3762             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I asked about television because you have already mentioned print and radio.

3763             MR. DART:  Yes, absolutely.

3764             On the A‑Channel they do cover us that way, but still not in‑depth; nothing that we are doing for ‑‑ like buying any media time with them or anything like that, because we don't feel that it is going to hit our demographics still.

3765             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Mr. Lazar, is it the same for you?

3766             MR. LAZAR:  Yes.  Actually, when it even comes, say, to TV, it is pretty much hit or miss, a great example being ‑‑ I think it was about two weeks ago.  We had finished our final regular season game ‑‑ or our first playoff game.  We called in, as we do every night ‑‑ our games finish, generally, about 10:30 p.m.  We called it in, to get it in for the 11 o'clock news that our game had been played, and the funny comment that was made by the sports person there was, "Oh, you guys were playing tonight?  I forgot about that," and that was it.

3767             Hopefully, that night, something did get on there, but it's really hit or miss whether they are even aware of it, despite the fact that we try to send out one or two media releases to TV, print, or a couple of radio stations.  It's completely hit or miss whether they even pick up on it, and then whether they want to bother reporting it.

3768             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  If we were to licence the Rogers' application for pod fm, what would be your expectation?

3769             That is, what would you expect Rogers to do for both of your leagues?

3770             MR. DART:  I think the big thing is ‑‑ and we have seen it from the television side.  Rogers covered the majority of our games, and all of the games in the playoffs were covered.

3771             So we would expect that, since we have a good working relationship at a league level, it would continue on the radio side.

3772             One of the other things, in conjunction with what Alan was saying, was that we had a situation last summer ‑‑ and this is going back to the print side ‑‑ where the reporters were on vacation.  We got no coverage whatsoever.  Like, nothing.

3773             And it was at a point where we were actually competing for first place for the league pennant, and they just said, "Everyone is on vacation, so you won't have any coverage whatsoever."

3774             We thought that, for the size of the town we have, there should have been some sort of coverage.

3775             That is where we are missing out on ‑‑ consistency, I guess, is probably the biggest thing.  We need something that is not only going to be, like Alan was saying, hit and miss, we need something consistent.  We can't build our brand on hit and miss.  It really has to be something that is going to be ongoing, and build it into our strategy as well.

3776             If we can't actually get to the demographics that we need, what do we do?  It's back to word of mouth, and word of mouth doesn't really cut it too much, in our minds anyway.

3777             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Anything to add, Mr. Lazar?

3778             MR. LAZAR:  I don't have much to add.  I think that expectations are, simply ‑‑ again, as has already been said ‑‑ regular, consistent exposure to the team.

3779             The nice part with a medium like pod fm is the fact that we know that we will be able to get the score out there.  If there are major things happening ‑‑

3780             We had one of our players, mid‑season, signed by the Toronto Argonauts, and nothing got out about that.

3781             We signed another player who had been a Vanier Cup MVP, et cetera, and yet, if it gets out there, it is completely by chance.

3782             The other part, too ‑‑ I think the fun part about pod fm is that it brings an interactive element.  It would allow someone at the game, for example, to contact pod fm and say, "Hey, this is a great thing that's going on."

3783             It helps to really create awareness, and, also, it really gives people a true feel of what these events are about, what is going on, so that people understand that this is a true event, it's a family event, it's a lot of fun, and it really hits that demographic.

3784             Sometimes it is more about the enthusiasm that is caught up by:  "Who else is out there?"  They know that "somebody else in my age group is out there having a great time.  Hey, maybe I should be out there, too."

3785             You miss a lot of that, for example, in the print medium, which may have no interest in what it's covering.

3786             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you very much.

3787             Mr. McLean, just a couple of questions for you.

3788             Have you been able to quantify how many artists from the London area have participated in North by Northeast, say, in the last five years?

3789             MR. McLEAN:  I have last year's figures, actually.

3790             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Oh, that's good.  You came prepared.

3791             MR. McLEAN:  I believe there were 61 applications that we took from the London area, and we invited 11 acts to actually showcase.  Three of those acts made it onto our top sheet ‑‑ Top 60 ‑‑ which we started this year.

3792             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  And I do agree with you, there is nothing like live music.

3793             MR. McLEAN:  Well, let's hope not; otherwise, we are all in trouble.

--- Laughter / Rires

3794             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  What is the concert scene in London?

3795             Are there large venues, medium‑size venues?

3796             MR. McLEAN:  In this proposal, what we have done is put together a list of ‑‑ this would be a university ‑‑ kind of a Frosh Week tour.  We have identified a dozen venues ‑‑ for example, Fanshawe College in London.  We would do Western, obviously, and then there would be other areas in the 519 area ‑‑ Kitchener, Conestoga College.

3797             There is a whole list in the application here of where we would actually send these bands, and they are well‑established campus venues.

3798             We would make sure that the bands going in there would get the best opportunity they could, in terms of production, that we would enhance production in whatever facilities are in there already.

3799             It's a good circuit to be on.  It's the campus circuit.  It is usually quite a step above where they would normally be able to get access.  These bands would be seeing it as a major opportunity to build their audience directly with the student population at universities.

3800             Usually, this kind of thing would be out of their reach, because they would be bands at a higher level.

3801             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I saw Teenage Head at my university pub.

3802             That may date me, but it is a fact.

3803             MR. McLEAN:  Frankie Venom, RIP.  Unfortunately, he died.

3804             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Yes, I know.

3805             Thank you very much, gentlemen, for your participation this morning.

3806             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Messrs. McLean, Lazar and Dart, for your presentation.

3807             We will now move to the next group of intervenors, Madam Secretary.

3808             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

3809             I would now call Mr. Dennis Burns, Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs, and the Downchild Blues Band to appear as a panel and present their interventions.

3810             Please introduce yourself for the record.  You will have 10 minutes for your presentation.

INTERVENTION

3811             MR. TAYLOR:  Good morning, Mr. Chair, members of the Commission, and Commission staff.  My name is Earl Taylor.  I am not Dennis Burns.  I am the Executive Director of the Canadian Organization of Campus Activities.  I am here, primarily, in my volunteer role as one of the vice chairs of the Great Lakes Blues Society.

3812             My colleague, Dennis Burns, unfortunately, was unable to attend this hearing at the last minute, so he asked me to read his statement for him.  So, with your permission, I will do that.

3813             I should preface this by saying that many of the comments ‑‑ or most of the comments that Dennis makes in his statement are supported by members of the executive of the Great Lakes Blues Society, which is the blues organization in London, Ontario.

3814             I will start his letter:

"I am providing this letter to be read by one of my fellow Blues Society members in support of the above‑noted application..."

3815             ‑‑ and that is for the DAWG FM blues station in London ‑‑

"...since I am, regrettably, unable to attend due to trial commitments in London today.

By way of introduction, my name is Dennis Burns.  I am a lawyer in London, and have been for more than 28 years.  I have been certified by the Law Society of Upper Canada as a specialist in family law since May 1996.

I am also, and have been for some 40 years, an avid blues music fan and a supporter of this genre, the original music of North American popular music.

As a supporter and fan, I am, and have been for more than four years, Vice‑Chairman and Treasurer of the Great Lakes Blues Society.  The mandate of the Great Lakes Blues Society is, for want of a better expression, to keep the blues alive.

We do so by producing and promoting live events, featuring blues artists from Canada, the U.S., and abroad, and also through our 'Blues in the Schools' program, where we bring blues artists to elementary schools in London and the surrounding areas to teach students about blues music, its African roots, and its blending with other North American musical forms, which result in the variety of popular music that we enjoy today.

We do our best to bring the 'Blues in the Schools' program to elementary school students without any cost to the school boards, and never any cost to the students themselves.

All of the students and teachers are left with a greater knowledge and a joy for the blues, music which has uplifted many generations of music fans around the world for many years.

Additionally, as an integral part of our mandate, we raise money for charities, mostly local, grassroots, Canadian-registered organizations, which do not have the kind of high profile required to raise funds on a national, or even regional basis.

On occasion, we have also raised money for international charities during times of extreme need ‑‑ for example, the Tsunami Relief Fund in January 2005, and our 'Blues for Katrina' effort in October 2005, to aid the victims of Hurricane Katrina, which wreaked so much destruction, particularly in New Orleans, and especially amongst the poor.

Over the past four years, I believe we have raised, or helped to raise, well over $50,000 for those in need.  We do this through our events, and with the support of the artists who perform, and the dedicated blues fans who pay generously to attend the events, and then contribute more by participating in silent auctions, raffles and other fundraising activities.

That brings me to this application.  Although blues is undeniably the true original North American music, it suffers from a lack of exposure in the media, most noticeably on the radio.  There are very few, if any, blues stations that are available, except via satellite.

The fans are there, but there is no affordable way for them to connect to the music on a day‑to‑day basis.

I go to Chicago periodically, where you will see many young people attending blues events, whether the venue is a festival or a nightclub.  They enjoy and connect with the music just as much as the more, shall I say, mature fans do.

Blues music spans not only generations, but also many geographical and geopolitical areas.  If you go to the Blues Foundation website, you will see that there are blues societies listed from virtually every corner of the globe.

Blues musicians tour worldwide, and are very warmly received wherever they go.

Music Maker Relief Foundation is a North Carolina charitable organization of which I am proud to be a member.  It is dedicated to preserving blues music and assisting blues musicians.  One of its mottos is 'Preserving music by preserving musicians.'

It accomplishes this by giving grants of money to those who are in need.  It also gets work for these professional musicians through its own record label and through concerts in the U.S.A., France, other European countries, South America, and elsewhere in the world.

Music Maker rocks the Senate and House of Representatives at its annual Congressional Blues Festival, which is held each spring at the Kennedy Plaza in Washington, D.C.  I believe that 2009 will be its sixth annual event.

Music Maker is able to do all of this with donations from people in all walks of life.  There was one donor early in Music Maker's history, when it was a fledgling organization, who dropped off a bank draft for $100,000.

There are many who help, both rich and poor, by donating whatever they can in money or time, but they all have one thing in common, a love of blues music.

There are other organizations like Music Maker, and there are many blues societies that work in the same way, but on a smaller scale.  The point is, those who love and support blues are passionate about the music and the artists who make it.

Blues is woven into the fabric of North American society.  It crosses all boundaries and is colour blind.

While I recall reading a very good article in National Geographic a few years ago about the Blues Highway, I also recall another excellent piece in that publication about the universal language of the blues and its symbolism in different forms to all who play it.

There is not only Mississippi Delta, Hill Country, Chicago and Texas blues, each of which has its own style and tradition, there is also distinctive Canadian ‑‑ East Coast, Quebec, Ontario and Western Canada ‑‑ blues forms.  Each speaks to listeners in a different style, but it is all the blues.

A very wise bluesman named Willie Dixon once said, 'Blues will never die, not as long as people work and play and live and love.'

As has been said often, and by many, blues is truth, but people need to have a chance to be exposed to the art form readily and regularly.  Radio is a medium that can accomplish that.

Here in London we have a very rich blues tradition.  You will, no doubt, hear from colleagues of mine who have been in the blues music business going on 35 years, all due to their love of the music.  You might hear from some of our very accomplished musicians.  You might hear from those who own blues clubs.  You might hear from others like me, who simply have been and continue to be moved by the music.

Whatever you hear will be from the heart.  No one has gotten rich through blues music, in a monetary sense, but many have been immeasurably enriched by it, even those who do not necessarily know it is because, without the blues, there would be no jazz, or rock and roll, or rap, or other popular forms.

However, the genre needs help to continue to grow.  The musicians, especially local artists, need an outlet for their talents.  Fans need the exposure to the music on easily available commercial radio.  Club owners and their staff will, in turn, benefit, as will advertisers and other businesses, and ultimately our blues education program, 'Blues in the Schools', because we cannot make that work without the assistance of local businesses.

I want to thank you for your time and attention to this, and to the application for this broadcast licence.

Sincerely, Dennis Burns, Vice‑Chairman and Treasurer, Great Lakes Blues Society."

3816             Thank you very much.  I am prepared to answer any questions you might have, even though I am not named on the original application.

3817             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Taylor.  We will hear the two other intervenors, and after that we will, surely, have questions for you.

3818             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you.

3819             The Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs.  Please introduce yourself.  You will have 10 minutes to make your presentation.

INTERVENTION

3820             MR. BLAICHER:  My name is John Blaicher, and I am a staff person at the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs.

3821             I would like to thank the CRTC, first, for allowing our organization to be represented at this hearing and speak in support of Ed Torres' application for two new radio station licences.

3822             Snowmobiling is an iconic Canadian recreation activity, invented by a Canadian, and enjoyed each winter by hundreds of thousands of outdoor enthusiasts, including many Guelph and St. Thomas area residents.

3823             The Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs is a non‑profit, volunteer‑driven organization.  The 235 community service clubs that form the OFSC operate the world's longest integrated recreational trail network.  Believe it or not, it is over 41,000 kilometres in length, which represents more kilometres than there are provincial highways, which many people aren't aware of.

3824             About 2,500 kilometres of these trails are located in an arc around Guelph and St. Thomas, and are easily accessible to area residents.

3825             Economic impact studies confirm that OFSC snowmobile trails generate $1 billion in economic activity annually, primarily in rural and northern Ontario, while also contributing many millions more in tax revenues to government coffers.

3826             These winter‑only trails are operated by community‑based, not‑for‑profit snowmobile clubs, and provide numerous social, recreational and health benefits to countless Ontarians in their home towns.

3827             Moreover, these snowmobile trails provide hundreds of rural communities and their residents with significant winter livelihoods, helping to sustain many families in an otherwise traditionally dormant and difficult season.

3828             The OFSC clubs operate trails directly north of the Guelph and St. Thomas area, on private land, generously donated by local landowners, and many area residents access these trails for their winter recreation.

3829             As local service clubs, snowmobile clubs benefit charity, running numerous events, including our annual Snowarama rides, which have raised over $16 million, to date, to support the Easter Seal Society of Ontario for children with physical disabilities.

3830             Local clubs are also involved in delivering safety education for young snowmobilers through the OFSC driver training program, an authorized program by the Ontario Ministry of Transportation.

3831             To date, almost 6,000 teenagers have graduated from OFSC driver training courses.

3832             Rural values are the foundation of the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs in small‑town Ontario.  We are all about generous local people, freely sharing their time, efforts, or land, for the greater well‑being of their home communities and fellow residents.

3833             Through our local service clubs and volunteers, the OFSC delivers important safety and environment programs, and we rely extensively on local contacts, especially local radio, to get our messages out, to promote our fundraising and charity events, and to help save lives.

3834             Unfortunately, our ability to reliably and consistently do this varies considerably from town to town and time to time.

3835             To date, no existing broadcasting company has stepped to our plate to help us put together a provincial radio messaging education and information campaign, through multiple station outlets, in various markets ‑‑ no one, that is, except Skywords, Frank and Ed Torres.

3836             The OFSC began to work with Ed and Frank Torres and Skywords several years ago.  Not only have they over-delivered on all their community service efforts on behalf of our clubs and volunteers, in multiple markets, they have approached us, again and again, to get our message out in new ways, and into new markets, where we have previously been unable to find willing radio partners.

3837             Skywords has proved to be an exceptional media partner, that has gone out of its way to serve our non‑profit, volunteer‑based organization in a variety of ways.  We have always been impressed by their willingness to try new ideas, to create innovative opportunities, and to work at the grassroots level.

3838             For example, the OFSC is comprised of 235 community clubs, in 17 districts, and when we asked Skywords to assist Ontarians by developing a much needed radio trail report throughout the winter, Ed and Frank Torres personally attended meetings in most OFSC districts to meet our volunteers and hear what each community needed.

3839             As a result, Skywords has served many rural and northern communities very well by promoting events, delivering safety messaging, and encouraging the snowmobile tourism on which so many of these small snowbelt towns depend each winter.

3840             The point of all of this background is that Ed and Frank Torres have proved to be willing, effective, motivated, and generous partners in assisting the OFSC and its clubs to achieve our community service mandate.

3841             More than any other broadcasting company, Skywords has demonstrated its commitment and ability to growing and improving the benefits of organized snowmobiling for communities throughout snowbelt Ontario.

3842             So when the OFSC learned of the Skywords radio application for a blues radio station in Guelph and St. Thomas, we knew that one result would be new and effective community service access to thousands of listeners who we have not previously been able to reach, either frequently or affordably, through existing radio outlets.

3843             Guelph and St. Thomas has a significant mix of urban and rural, where snowmobiling is integral to its winter recreation opportunities, yet neither local nor area residents are well served with regular news, information, and updates supporting these two regions of the province.  We are confident that this will change dramatically with a new Skywords radio station in the area.

3844             Knowing their passion for radio, their commitment to the experience, and community service, we are especially pleased to support the Skywords' application for a blues radio station in Guelph and St. Thomas.  These two new stations will provide listeners with a music choice that is presently absent from this rapidly growing market, and an opportunity to be involved with, and benefit from, a very community‑minded broadcaster.

3845             There are three tangible ways that they actually have served us over the last number of years that I would like to share with you.

3846             We talked about them helping us in supporting charitable events.  That's one.  But they have really gone to bat to assist us in developing better radio public service messages to drive our volunteer recruitment strategy, because we depend on volunteers to do most of our business, to help us reduce the incidents of snowmobile injury and death in this province, which, at times, may appear to be catastrophic ‑‑ the good news is that they don't happen, for the most part, on our trail system, they happen off our trail ‑‑ and, also, to educate Ontarians about the responsibility they have to use our trails in an environmentally responsible way.

3847             If I could, I would like to give you an example of three public service messages that Skywords has helped us produce.  They have choreographed them, helped us to script them, and actually assisted us in their production.

3848             It may seem like a small gesture, but when you are looking at limited dollars, and trying to outreach and compete amongst many other different messages being played on the air, it really does help to have experts helping you do the job.

3849             The first is a safety message, which is 30 seconds in length.

--- Audio clip / Clip audio

3850             MR. BLAICHER:  The second is a message ‑‑ because we rely on thousands of volunteers to support our business.  In fact, we have over 7,000 dedicated volunteers, representing the 235 snowmobile clubs in the province, and we estimate that the volunteer contingent supports about 265,000 family riders.

3851             Snowmobiling is big business, but we are sometimes challenged to communicate these important messages, and we want to be as environmentally responsible as we can, as stewards of this land, so this is one of the environment messages that will play across a network of stations this winter.

--- Audio clip / Clip audio

3852             MR. BLAICHER:  The last one addresses the need to recruit volunteers.

--- Audio clip / Clip audio

3853             MR. BLAICHER:  Now, we do have a budget and we do invest in radio and television and print advertising to help get our message out.

3854             One of the other things that Skywords, Frank and Ed Torres, has helped us do is to take that budget allotment and, as volunteers to their company, they have contacted each of our radio stations partners, the over 68 radio stations in the province, and have tried to lever or our investment to a higher level.

3855             Their expertise in doing radio and television buys, their connections in the industry and their first‑hand often knowledge of who owns the stations has helped us take our $180,000 annual media budget and lever it to the point that we now are documenting over a half a million in media messaging.

3856             It's just their commitment to try to help an organization who has limited resources by applying their expertise and knowledge and it's been unwavering.  There have been many examples of where we have needed help and we have gone to Ed ‑‑ I know Ed more specifically than Frank ‑‑ and it's always been there.

3857             We just launched a ‑‑

3858             ASSISTANT SECRETARY:  Excuse me, sir.  This is the Hearing Secretary.  You have one minute remaining.

3859             MR. BLAICHER:  Okay.

3860             ASSISTANT SECRETARY:  Please conclude your...

3861             MR. BLAICHER:  Okay.  Thank you.

3862             We just launched a Take a Friend Snowmobiling challenge in hoping that existing snowmobilers could recruit a friend, take them out and by exposing them to the sport maybe recruit a new customer.  So we have launched a contest.  Ed helped us gain some prizes.  He has put up, you know, a Langford canoe that will be one of the prizes.

3863             We had a snowmobile show happen in Toronto only three weeks ago and we wanted to do something for the young kids attending the show so we launched what was called The Incredible Critters Zone so kids could come in and actually learn about the animals they might see on the trail or even some that might be hibernating in the winter.  Ed again stepped to the table and Skywords sponsored that section of the show.

3864             So it's not only their commitment to help us as an organization, lever our dollars better, get better messaging out to the public, but it's also their philanthropic contribution when we have needed help that has impressed us.

3865             So it is time to reward them and to support their application and we are happy to be here to do that.

3866             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Blaicher.

3867             ASSISTANT SECRETARY:  Thank you.

3868             Downchild Blues Band, please introduce yourself for the record and you have 10 minutes for your presentation.

INTERVENTION

3869             MR. JACKSON:  Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

3870             My name is Chuck Jackson, I'm the singer of the Downtown Blues Band.  We have been together for over 40 years and we have won numerous awards.  We have been nominated or won five Junos, we have won 50 Canadian blues awards and have performed all over the world, Europe and Canada, United States and Central America, and I am very proud to be here to support the blues format radio station in London.

3871             I think it's a wonderful thing.  It certainly gives opportunity for a lot of bands such as ourselves, bands that have been in the business for years and years, and also newer bands starting out to promote their CDs.  It gives an opportunity to promote their performances that are coming up.

3872             I know for sure that when we come to London to have an opportunity to do some advance advertising, to do interviews with some of the DJs, to promote the show that we will be doing would be a great advantage to us and certainly to all the other groups that would be performing also.

3873             Blues music is certainly loved by a whole group of people.  I would like to tell you a story that happened to me one time after a show.  A young girl 19 years old came up to me and said, "Well, Mr. Jackson, Downchild Blues Band, you're really great.  You're a great blues band.  I didn't think I would like it.  You know, I didn't think I would like the blues, but my grandparents have all your records and they made me come."

3874             And I just thought it was quite funny that this young girl came with her grandparents, and her parents were there, so we had three generations of blues lovers that were at the Downchild Blues Band concert that day and she walked away a blues fan, like so many young audiences do, and it helps create a lot of young performers themselves.

3875             We have had the pleasure of playing with a lot of kids now that are 15, 16, 17, in their 20s, playing the blues and being very dedicated to it.

3876             I also, besides being the singer for Downchild, I am the founder and the Artistic Director of the Southside Shuffle Blues and Jazz Festival in Mississauga.  We celebrated our 10th year and this year we actually drew 75,000 people to our five‑day festival.  We had people from all over the world come to the festival.  It just goes to show how widespread the love and dedication of the blues is.

3877             One thing that we do at the festival, too, is also we try to do a show that's called The Junior Jam, it's all children under 18 that perform the blues.  We close our street and have basically a New Orleans type activity going there where people are ‑‑ there are 35 bands, mostly bands from places like Timmins, you know, Sudbury.  We bring in people from all over Ontario to play and showcase their music and sell CDs.

3878             This is great and it would be another great opportunity for festivals to promote on the radio station, which I think would be a great advantage.

3879             Basically, there is a festival going on somewhere in Canada every weekend of the year.  And we played the Blues Festival here in London, Windsor and other areas that would be certainly in the range of the radio station that would be a good advantage for us to promote blues and the festivals that are happening and the individual shows that different performers play at in bars and restaurants and things like that.

3880             So I'm very happy to be here and I just feel it's a wonderful opportunity for all the Canadian blues artists and the chance to have their music played on a 24‑hour format blues station.

3881             So I thank you very much.

3882             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Jackson.

3883             Commissioner Simpson...?

3884             COMMISSIONER SIMPSON:  Thank you very much.

3885             Going back to the relationship that the snowmobile club ‑‑ I'm sorry, I will start with that question first.

3886             Was it you that had made the approach to ‑‑ how did that relationship get started to the point where it is as strong as it is today apparently?

3887             MR. BLAICHER:  Well, we knew that Skywords Radio was delivering important traffic reports across the GTA and on many radio stations across the province and we had the challenge to try and deliver a snowmobile trail condition report so that much of our audience ‑‑ I believe that half of our snowmobile client group lives south of Highway 7 so they don't reside in the north, they have permanent residence in the south but they travel to the north, so it is important to give them good trail condition report information.  That was our first approach.

3888             When we made that call, we found out that Ed and Frank Torres were new recruits to snowmobiling.  They had just bought machines, they were very passionate about it and their enthusiasm for the sport and our need to do a better job in our business created this partnership.  It has really been a marvel.

3889             Like I said, any time we have asked for help, they have been there to help us.

3890             COMMISSIONER SIMPSON:  Thank you.

3891             Mr. Taylor, what is it that drew you to the blues, and your circle of friends?  What do you feel is the common thread that makes you a devotee?

3892             MR. TAYLOR: Well, I  think that blues is clearly the basis of most popular music that we hear today on the radio that buys the CDs and so on.  It is, I suppose, an attraction to the roots of our popular music.

3893             I have been involved with music for many years, not only in London.  Before I'm doing what I do now, I was a nightclub owner in Montréal, I was a music promoter for McGill University, so I have been exposed to popular music for many years, and blues as part of that.  It was a love of the music I think that drew a group of us together in London to form the Great Lakes Blues Society and promote that genre specifically.

3894             COMMISSIONER SIMPSON:  You had mentioned you were in the entertainment and promotion business as a nightclub owner, and others have.  I suppose this question is directed to both yourself and Mr. Jackson.

3895             As promoters, players of blues, what kind of demographic are you seeing turned out?

3896             I was impressed with the 75,000 figure that you drew in Mississauga, but I'm curious if you could give me a cross‑section.  I'm hearing that the blues is for all ages, but I'm just wondering if that is actually what's happening in terms of the kind of fan support you get at the turnstile.

3897             MR. TAYLOR:  Well, I think that the kind of demographic ‑‑ the story that you mentioned, Chuck ‑‑ the key supporters are, I would say, over 40, but we are finding that as we promote to students in London, of both Fanshawe College and the University of Western Ontario, we are seeing more and more of the younger generation discovering that the roots basis of the music that they listen to, all the different genres, that being the blues.  So we are getting some good turnouts from the younger generation.

3898             Also, as Chuck alluded to, we are seeing a lot of very young blues musicians coming out of the woodwork.  I mean we had ‑‑ before each of our general meetings we have local artists do a spotlight set for 45 minutes, and one of those ‑‑ one of those local musicians was a fellow, I don't know, 12 or 14 years old.  I mean he was just a whiz on the guitar, still had a lot of maturing to do, but I mean that's the kind of thing that we are promoting and we are seeing some good results from that.

3899             MR. JACKSON:  I think it's really become almost the contemporary music for the boomers.  You know, the thing about the blues that's happening is we are getting original music.  All the musicians are writing new music so you are getting an opportunity to hear new music instead of hearing oldies and songs that we probably heard a million times.  I think that there is a real need out there for that.

3900             As I was saying earlier, there are so many young musicians getting involved in the blues now.

3901             So obviously I say the core audiences are boomers from 40 to 65, but there are also great ‑‑ it's the kind of music that you can bring your whole family.  You can bring your kids out and have a great time, you know.

3902             People have to realize that, like any kind of music, there is a lot of different styles of blues, there is blues, jump blues, country blues, you know, there is blues that everybody loves to dance to.  You can dance all night to the blues and you can also sit and listen to a single person play guitar and harmonica.  So there's Kansas City blues which has lots of horns and big band arrangement.  So there is a great variety.

3903             COMMISSIONER SIMPSON:  I think I'm hearing you say the blues has been around so long that it's ‑‑ or it is so old it's new again.

3904             MR. JACKSON:  Pretty much, you're right.

3905             COMMISSIONER SIMPSON:  Yes.

3906             The last question.  This is to the genre because radio is a commercial business and as such there is not only the responsibility of the station to its community, to its marketplace, but there is a responsibility in making sure that it's financially successful.

3907             Any of you can weigh in on this, but if you could give me an idea of your perception of whether or not blues is going from the edges to the middle of society's appetite for music and how a broadcaster that chooses to go this route with a programming format like this would be able to resonate with the community.

3908             Because again, as a promoter for example, there is a big difference between mainstream rock 'n roll and the blues because it's a more refined ‑‑ perhaps may be characterized as a more refined music style.

3909             So this is a commercial question, you know:  Can a station like this in your mind get to the core of a community and still be viable?

3910             I know you're not broadcasters ‑‑

3911             MR. TAYLOR:  Yes.

3912             COMMISSIONER SIMPSON:  ‑‑ but you know I'm talking appetite, taste levels and residency in a market.

3913             MR. TAYLOR:  Well, again, as was alluded to earlier, there are so many variations of the blues.  You know, there is blues‑based rock and roll, there is Southern Fried Blues, there is Mississippi Blues.

3914             Our Blues Society tends to be more of a purist.  The music that we promote tends to be more what we call pure blues, but you know in terms of mainstream radio I don't see any problem at all with satisfying a more mainstream audience and not just the blues purists.

3915             MR. JACKSON:  I think one thing that we are seeing is that all the communities across Canada, including the capital in Ottawa, the largest vessel in North America is in Ottawa, the largest blues festival.  It is a five‑day festival.  Communities, if you even look in this area with London and Kitchener and places like Guelph, they all have blues festivals.

3916             You know, we are not seeing country music festivals happening in all these areas, we are not seeing, you know, hard rock concerts outdoors in these festivals.  I can think blues is a music that I think everyone including the communities feel, and the cities behind them, that they can put their money in and they can get people coming out and enjoying it.

3917             COMMISSIONER SIMPSON:  Thank you.

3918             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Gentlemen, thank you for your presentation.

3919             This ends Phase III of the public hearing.  We will now move to ‑‑

‑‑‑ Pause

3920             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think we are going to take a break.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1020 / Suspension à 1020

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1040 / Reprise à 1040

3921             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  À   l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.

3922             Madam Secretary, we are now starting Phase IV of the public hearing.

3923             ASSISTANT SECRETARY:  Mr. Chairman, for the record, before we proceed with Phase IV, I wish to inform you that the applicant Frank Torres has submitted, in response to undertaking, a revised CCD chart and a proposed alternative reallocation of CCD funds.

3924             As well, My Broadcasting Corporation has submitted, in response to undertaking as well, a breakdown of CCD commitment.

3925             Third, also for the record, Rogers Broadcasting Limited has submitted a final projection, including a breakdown web interactive cost and a revised CCD expenditure, in response to undertaking.

3926             These documents will be added to the public record and copies are available in the examination room.

3927             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

3928             ASSISTANT SECRETARY:  Now we will proceed to Phase IV in which applicants can reply to all interventions submitted on their application.

3929             Applicants appear in reverse order, so I would now ask My Broadcasting Corporation to come forward.

‑‑‑ Pause

3930             ASSISTANT SECRETARY:  I would ask you to please reintroduce yourself for the record and then you have 10 minutes for this purpose.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

3931             MR. POLE:  Thank you.

3932             My name is Jon Pole.  I am the President of My Broadcasting Corporation and to my right is Andrew Dickson, the Vice President of My Broadcasting Corporation.

3933             We would just like to take this opportunity to be brief and have it on record that we would like to show our acknowledgment and our thanks to the close to 1,000 people in the city of St. Thomas who have showed their support for our application and at the same time have it on the record that we would like to thank the Chamber of Commerce in St. Thomas, as well as the City of St. Thomas for their support in our application, and as well thank the Commissioner and the staff of the Commission for their support and taking the time to hear our application.

3934             Thank you.

3935             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Pole.

3936             Madam Secretary...?

3937             ASSISTANT SECRETARY:  I will now ask Frank Torres to come forward.

‑‑‑ Pause

3938             ASSISTANT SECRETARY:  I would just ask you to please reintroduce yourself for the record.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

3939             MR. E. TORRES:  Yes, good morning.

3940             My name is Ed Torres, I am the President of Skywords and the Chairman of CIDG‑FM.  Beside me is my brother, Frank Torres and Yves Trottier to his left.

3941             Good morning, Mr. Chair, CRTC Commissioners, CRTC staff.  I would like to thank our 670 supporters for this application that supported and the support of blues fans, musicians, venue owners and record labels that have supported us.

3942             Particularly, I would like to thank the supporting intervenors.  I would like to put that on the record.  They took time out of their busy days.

3943             You have just heard from John Blaicher from the OFSC, Earl Taylor representing Great Lakes Blues Society, and Chuck Jackson of the Downchild Blues Band.  We want that to be reflected in the record.

3944             And because there were no interventions opposing our Blues FM application, we would just like to close by a thank you to the CRTC, thank you for hearing this application; thank you to the CRTC staff for their hard work to facilitate this process.

3945             Merci.

3946             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Torres.

3947             I know legal counsel has a question for you.

3948             MR. McINTYRE:  All right.  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3949             I just have one question of clarification.

3950             In your application you submitted that you would commit to 25 per cent Category 3 and yesterday you said that in fact you would commit to 20 per cent as a COL.

3951             Am I understanding your commitment correctly?

3952             MR. TROTTIER:  Yes, that is correct.

3953             MR. McINTYRE:  I guess my question is:  Would you accept a Commission COL to hold you to that 25 per cent commitment?

3954             MR. TROTTIER:  Yes, we will.

3955             MR. McINTYRE:  Thank you.

3956             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Gentlemen, thank you very much.

3957             Madam Secretary...?

3958             ASSISTANT SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

3959             United Christian Broadcasters of Canada, please come forward.

‑‑‑ Pause

3960             ASSISTANT SECRETARY:  Please reintroduce yourself for the record and you have 10 minutes.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

3961             MR. HUNT:  Thank you.  Good morning.

3962             My name is James Hunt.  I am the COO all of UCB Canada.

3963             Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, Commission staff, there were six points raised yesterday by Sound of Faith and I will just respond to those quickly.

3964             The first point was:  Why would UCB apply for a station in London where our website, quotes ‑‑ that we would not do this if there was an existing Christian station in the market.

3965             Mr. Elliott quoted the UCB international website, not the UCB Canada one, and he quoted from the website directly and I just want to paraphrase:  to establish Christian ‑‑ the goal is to establish Christian stations where there is an open door and to birth a work in new areas and not adequately covered.

3966             When a group of local business leaders and church leaders asked UCB Canada to come into the London community, to us that constitutes a fairly open door.

3967             The second point there is, this is an area that is not currently adequately covered, which is the very premise of UCB Canada being invited, as well as Sound of Faith's application.  That's what they based their application on.

3968             So I don't see a contradiction in any of the goals on that point.

3969             Point number two, the point was raised regarding a national licence application and not rebroadcasting where there is an existing station.

3970             This has nothing to do with the application that is sitting before you at the moment.  Rebroadcasting was never mentioned in our application or during the hearings.  We have been very clear that this will be a local station for the Christian community in the community employing people from the community.

3971             Point number three, Mr. Elliott mentioned that I had met with Dr. Reid in 2007.  That's true.  Actually, it was Mr. Quinn and myself and it was on the request of Dr. Reid.

3972             The discussion centred around the perceived notion that the CRTC had shown favour regarding UCB Canada's previous applications and he was asking how this was achieved.

3973             What Mr. Elliott did not say ‑‑ and he may well not be aware of it ‑‑ was that Dr. Reid and I met on the 11th of April 2008 at Michael's Grillhouse just off County Road 59 South of Woodstock.  It was at this meeting, which I initiated and requested, that I asked Dr. Reid if Sound of Faith had responded to the call from the CRTC.  He said that they had not.  I suggested to Dr. Reid that maybe we should work together to ensure that the London and surrounding areas get a high‑powered Christian station that can serve the Christian community.  This suggestion was unacceptable to him.

3974             Working with other stations for a common cause is not new to UCB.  In a number of cases the stations we work with are not even affiliated to UCB.  Our name defines who we are, United Christian Broadcasters.

3975             However, the people of London deserve a fair representation in his hearing and that is what we committed to do.

3976             Point number four was raised, and the assumption of Sound of Faith that Mr. Butler was involved in the community leaders asking UCB to make an application on their behalf before you is totally false.

3977             We had a total of three meetings with some of the leaders involved and yet, Mr. Chair, the CRTC received roughly 350 letters of support from London intervenors ‑‑ there were more from others ‑‑ in support of this application without even approaching the church community.

3978             Point five, the second to last one, Mr. Elliott mentioned that in a brief discussion with Mr. Grieve from His Season after UBC Canada's appearing yesterday, that Mr. Grieve would have supported the application if he had known about it.

3979             I obviously can't comment on a discussion I was not part of.  Mr. Grieve was asked to advocate for Canadian Christian artists.

3980             What I do take exception to is calling Mr. Grieve's integrity into question, suggesting that he would side with the group, especially as all Christian broadcasters benefited from Mr. Greaves appearing.  He was asked to present and I'm sure you would agree with me that Mr. Grieve's perspective on Canadian Christian artists, the struggles they face and the Christian broadcasting landscape from an artist's perspective was informative and very helpful.

3981             Mr. Grieve was not coached by us and he responded with integrity and a sensitivity that brings a level of understanding regarding a fledgling industry and I believe his comments would help all Christian radio broadcasters, including Sound of Faith because of his involvement.

3982             Last, Mr. Elliott called into question the statistics we were quoting regarding the London market, saying that only 6 per cent of the Christian population is evangelical.

3983             We are not targeting only the Evangelical segment of the Christian community.  The wider London Christian community is calling to be served by a high‑powered, professionally‑run Christian radio broadcaster.

3984             We work hard and providing balance and integrity for us is important, so we would not align ourselves to only one segment of the Christian community.  Working together, as you saw in the video, is our preferred path.

3985             What we do we strive to do well and we were asked to use our expertise to place an application before you on behalf of a diverse group of London community leaders and I believe we adequately have done that.

3986             Thank you.

3987             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Thank you.

3988             We don't have any questions.

3989             MR. HUNT:  Thank you.

3990             ASSISTANT SECRETARY:  Thank you.

3991             I will now invite Blackburn Radio Inc. to come forward.

‑‑‑ Pause

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

3992             MR. COSTLEY‑WHITE:  Thank you.

3993             Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission and Commission staff.

3994             My name is Richard Costley‑White and with me in this phase are Ron Dann, the General Manager of the Blackburn stations in Sarnia; Carl Veroba ‑‑ Ron is to my left, Carl to Ron's left, our technical consultant; and Debra McLaughlin of Strategic Inc.

3995             Ron...?

3996             MR. DANN:  We understand that some of the other applicants dispute some of the research numbers that we have presented.  We are confident that the CRTC can interpret the numbers and come to an appropriate conclusion so we won't belabour that.

3997             We had intended to raise one matter in Phase II, however following the Chair's comments to Forest City yesterday we decided the comments would be more appropriate in this phase of the hearing.

3998             In response to a question from the Panel, CTV indicated there was only one frequency available for use in his hearing.  We must beg to differ as we believe there are a number of frequencies that could be used.  In contrast to CTV in response to a similar question, Rogers was clear that they believed there were other options open as well.

3999             We would like to explain why we believe there are opportunities to license more than one private commercial radio station in London and I would like to ask Carl Veroba to explain.

4000             MR. VEROBA:  Thank you, Ron.

4001             Good morning, Chair and Commissioners.

4002             First of all, it's important to note that we originally applied for 91.1 and submitted a technical brief for that frequency.  Our application to Industry Canada was subject to a valid objection from Global Television's Channel 6 service in Paris.

4003             Our consulting engineer, Jim Moltner of Technics, believes that with the careful design of a new transmitter facility and certain guarantees to Global their objection can be overcome, making the use of 91.1 a viable option in London.

4004             The proposed new service on 91.1 would not interfere with Global TV and we are confident that we can provide the necessary guarantees to satisfy them.

4005             Second, there are a number of frequencies that are available to other applicants at this hearing.  In each case only one applicant can use the frequency as it would cause some interference to other stations in the surrounding markets.

4006             Let me take you through these opportunities.

4007             Rogers could use 96.9 by accepting interference to their 96.7 in Kitchener.  This is similar to the application you will hear shortly in the Guelph portion of this hearing.  In that case Corus is applying to convert their AM station in Guelph to 95.7.  Only Corus can use this frequency as it would cause interference to their London station CFPL‑FM.

4008             CTV could use 101.9 by co‑siting and combining that signal with their existing Bob FM on a common antenna to provide a single adjacent service ‑‑ a second adjacent service to BOB FM, which broadcasts on 102.3.  These frequencies would only be available to Rogers or CTV.

4009             There is another frequency that could be used by Blackburn and no other applicant as well, although it is a bit more complicated.  It would depend on your decision regarding the Sound of Faith application to use 99.9.

4010             We are currently operating that same frequency in Sarnia and Sound of Faith has agreed to accept any interference that the Sarnia station would cause.  Our engineers tell us that the Sound of Faith facility might have a difficult time covering the market on 99.9 and it may be possible to upgrade their existing facilities to an A1 protected status on their current frequency of 105.9.

4011             However, the first concern would be get their existing facilities up to full power.  As you heard yesterday, or on Monday, they are operating at only 6 W.

4012             After their appearance on Monday, Ron Dann and I had a short discussion with David MacDonald and Dale Elliott of Sound of Faith and offered Blackburn's technical expertise to get their ailing transmitter up to full operating power.  They expressed interest in such help.

4013             If the Commission does not approve the Sound of Faith application for 99.9, Blackburn believes that we could make use of this frequency in London with interference concessions to and from our own CFGX‑FM in Sarnia.  This would require some re‑engineering in Sarnia, but we would be willing to undertake this.

4014             We have provided you with the summary of the viable FM frequency options for the London market and earlier provided enough copies to the Secretary for all applicants.

4015             MR. DANN:  Thank you, Carl.

4016             We would like to clarify one matter we discussed with Commissioner Simpson.  I'm not sure we were as clear as we needed to be in a question you asked us.

4017             The audience for our proposed format is united by a love of music.  They are light users of radio and they have an eclectic music tastes.  They can be identified by more traditional audience metrics as well.

4018             The key demographic efficiencies for the Triple‑A format are as follows:  57.3 per cent of the audience will be from the group 35 to 54.  While we would draw an 8.3 share of sellable tuning hours among all listeners 12‑plus, we draw 15.5 per cent of the sellable tuning by those 35‑54 and 12.5 per cent from those 25‑54.  The audience does skew slightly female at 55.9 per cent.

4019             Now, here to sum up once again is Richard.

4020             MR. COSTLEY‑WHITE:  Well, first of all, Carl outlined the various frequency options, but we believe we have made a good case for the use of 98.1.

4021             But if you believe that another use would be more appropriate, we believe that you could approve us in part, contingent upon us finding another frequency.

4022             If you decide to provide us with 98.1, we believe that there are options that would allow you to approve in part any other applicant.

4023             Now, I would be remiss if I did not thank a number of people.  Ron Dann and his team have devoted hundreds, if not thousands of hours to writing our application, researching the market, reaching out to people in London for input and in preparing for this hearing.  Thank you very much, Ron, and your team.

4024             Second, I want to thank the many people who took the time to write letters of support for our application.  They came from a wide cross‑section of Londoners and from people who have been served by our other stations in the area.

4025             Community organizations told you of how Blackburn Radio goes above and beyond the call of duty to reflect their communities and their concerns in their programming.

4026             Business leaders told you of the need for new radio choice in London and of our company's credibility to the London community.

4027             Musical artists and their representatives told you of the contribution that our radio stations have made to their careers and of the need for a Triple‑A station that will break the format barriers that keep them from getting the exposure that they deserve.

4028             Finally, we would like to thank you, Commissioners, and your staff for your courtesy and your helpfulness and thorough examination of our application.  It is clear to us that you have done your homework.

4029             Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission, London has been the home of Blackburn Radio since 1922, virtually the inception of the industry.  We have operated media enterprises in London since the middle of the 19th century.  Blackburn is an established brand known for journalistic excellence, community service and business integrity and London.  We would love the opportunity to bring our brand of radio home to London once again.

4030             Thank you.

4031             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Costley‑White, Mr. Dann, Madam McLaughlin.  Thank you very much for your presentation.

4032             ASSISTANT SECRETARY:  Thank you.

4033             I will now invite Evanov Communications Inc.

‑‑‑ Pause

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

4034             MR. EVANOV:  Good morning, Chair, Commissioners and Commission staff.

4035             My name is Paul Evanov, Vice President of Evanov Communications Inc.

4036             I would just like to thank you for the opportunity we have had to present a unique use contemporary radio format to serve London and to thank you for your time over last few days of the hearing.

4037             A special thanks to the Secretary and the Chair for making arrangements for our speaking intervenor, Chad, to be able to speak yesterday so he could get back to Halifax for this morning.

4038             Thank you.

4039             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That's it?

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

4040             MR. EVANOV:  That's it.

4041             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

4042             ASSISTANT SECRETARY:  Thank you.

4043             Rogers Broadcasting Limited, please.

‑‑‑ Pause

4044             ASSISTANT SECRETARY:  Please reintroduce yourself for the record and you have 10 minutes.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

4045             MR. SKI:  Thank you very much.

4046             I am Paul Ski, CEO of Rogers Radio.  With me is Susan Wheeler, VP of Regulatory Affairs for Rogers.

4047             Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission and Commission staff, thank you again for the opportunity to appear before you this week to present our proposal for pod fm, a new brand of interactive radio that will respond to the tastes and media habits of London's youth market.

4048             We also sincerely want to thank the many intervenors who took the time to write letters of support for our application, and to Scott, Andy and Adam who came here today to tell you why pod fm is needed in the London market.  Their contribution and interest in this proceeding is evidence of their commitment and desire to have a radio station that appeals to youth and young adult listeners and brings diversity to the London radio market.

4049             The rise of user‑generated content and its integration with more traditional content is one of the most exciting developments to watch in today's media space.

4050             We would like to make just one comment again about frequencies.  You have heard from others and I think you heard our thoughts the other day that there are other frequencies that can be made available.  They can be somewhat difficult and they can be ‑‑ there are cost implications to that, but it can be done.

4051             We think that our application best serves an underserved market in the youth market and that's why we believe that the best use of the frequency is for our application and that's 98.1.

4052             I think the other point on that too, is because we have another radio station broadcasting in Toronto at 98.1 CHFI, we are better able to manage any interference that may take place between our station in Toronto and pod fm.

4053             We would like to thank the staff for their assistance this week.  They have been very helpful to us, and we thank you for the opportunity to reply to the interventions filed in support of our application and we wish you well in your deliberations.

4054             Thank you very much for your time.

4055             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Ski.  Thank you very much.

4056             Madam Secretary...?

4057             ASSISTANT SECRETARY:  I will now invite CTV Limited.

‑‑‑ Pause

4058             ASSISTANT SECRETARY:  Please reintroduce yourself for the record.  You have 10 minutes.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

4059             MR. GORDON:  Thank you.

4060             For the record, my name is Chris Gordon.  I am joined by my colleagues today Jim Blundell, David Jones and Lenore Gibson.

4061             To start, we would like to take this opportunity to thank the many intervenors that took the time to write to the Commission on our behalf, including overwhelming support from individuals, community organizations, advertisers and artists.

4062             In particular we would like to thank Steve Malison of Fanshawe, as well as Jon Nolan and Bob Toft of the Don Wright Faculty of Music at UWO.  These individuals spoke to the music programs that our CCD funding will support and how their students will gain knowledge and hands‑on experience to support, train, develop and promote Canadian artists.

4063             Before we turn to the key reasons why our application for The CURVE should be approved, I would like to clarify two issues that were raised during our appearance on Monday, that is our airplay commitment toward emerging Canadian artists and the eligibility of certain CCD initiatives.

4064             First, our definition of emerging Canadian artists.

4065             While it was intended that our proposed definition be identical to the CAB's, their definition evolved after we filed our London application.  We confirm that we are prepared to commit to playing 25 per cent emerging Canadian artists using the CAB's definition.

4066             Second, our CCD initiatives.

4067             In the 2006 Commercial Radio Policy the Commission expanded its CCD policy to include a broader list of eligible initiatives.  The policy now provides that contributions should be dedicated to the initiatives that will provide high‑quality audio content for broadcast.  All CCD initiatives must be allocated to support promotion, training and development of Canadian musical and spoken word talent.

4068             The three initiatives that were discussed on Monday are our proposed funding to UWO, H.B. Beal and Fanshawe College.  Based on the Commission's criteria, these initiatives we feel are eligible for funding.

4069             With respect to the Don Wright Faculty of Music, we will provide scholarships to students enrolled in the popular music studies.

4070             In the case of H.B. Beal, we are providing funds through MusiCan for them to purchase musical instruments.

4071             Finally, with respect to Fanshawe, we will help Fanshawe's Music Industry Arts Program to upgrade their studio equipment.  However, should the Commission find that our proposed funding to Fanshawe be an ineligible CCD initiative, we are fully prepared to commit our proposed funding equitably to the other initiatives that we have identified in our application.

4072             We look forward to having the opportunity to build another successful example of local radio doing what it does best, proudly supporting the community it serves.  We know The CURVE will be an exciting addition to the London radio scene.

4073             Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you, and thank you to Commission staff who work so hard before, during and after these proceedings.

4074             Thank you.

4075             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Gordon.

4076             We don't have any questions.  Thank you.

4077             MR. GORDON:  Thank you.

4078             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary...?

4079             ASSISTANT SECRETARY:  Forest City Radio Inc., please come forward.

‑‑‑ Pause

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

4080             MR. KIRK:  Good morning.

4081             I am Doug Kirk, for the record.  I am Chairman and CEO of Forest City Radio and I just want to provide our reply to interventions and some concluding comments on our application for Boomer 98.1.

4082             I want to make three points.

4083             I have just been coached by Mr. Kassay to move the microphone away so I don't keep popping it.

4084             First of all, regarding research, I want to clarify a point raised by Blackburn yesterday.  I think they were clarifying the point as well.

4085             As stated in the Hendershot research, the entire 18 to 64‑year‑old respondent group Triple‑A was the most preferred format style at 31.7 per cent, but it was closely followed by pop oldies at 29.7 per cent.

4086             But when we look further in the report it's clear that pop oldies is the preferred music style for the 35 to 64‑year‑old demographic, which was the main demographic for Boomer 98.1.

4087             We have added a chart in the handout to capsulize that information.  I think it shows clearly the high acceptance of the pop oldies in particularly the 45 to 54 and 55 to 64‑year‑old demos.

4088             That clarifies the point on research.

4089             Regarding technical considerations, there has been considerable questioning of applicants who have presented subsequent to our appearance on Monday and statements have been made about frequencies in London.  We want to provide some additional comments to the Commission on the technical capacity of the market.

4090             There are basically two aspects to the question.

4091             First is the official position, and that's what you need to do with Industry Canada to receive a technical approval of your technical brief that you filed.

4092             Second, a second aspect is the possibilities for the development of additional frequencies in London.

4093             In dealing with the first point, all the commercial applicants have gravitated towards 98.1 from either a downtown or the Television Ontario Tower site.  Industry Canada has approved those technical proposals.

4094             London has what the Industry Canada people and the technical consultants call a Channel 6 problem.  Channel 6, because of its proximity to the FM band ‑‑ it lives right below the FM band from 82 to 86 MHz ‑‑ it precludes the use of FM frequencies below 92 MHz unless you have the approval of the Channel 6 operator in the market.

4095             In this case Global operates Channel 6 from Paris, Ontario and serves this market with that frequency.  So their initial position on the technical aspects for using other frequencies below 92 was no.  That's why several applicants have had to amend and end up on 98.1.

4096             However, Global has recently been cooperative in similar situations.  For example, in Guelph Global has indicated acceptance.  You will hear more about this in the Guelph discussions which follow.  They have been agreeable to use a frequency below 92 in Erin, Ontario to allow spectrum utilization and solve an issue of frequencies in the Guelph market.

4097             Global has also allowed the CBC to use a sub‑92 frequency, 88.1 as a matter of fact, to serve the CBC's new facility in Vancouver.  They have a Channel 6 station in Victoria that has precedence in Vancouver.

4098             So there are two examples where Global has been amenable to working with FM broadcasters.

4099             We have spoken to our technical consultant for Global and understand that Global TV is open to discussions.  They haven't made any commitments, but they are open to discussions relating to the use of FM frequencies below 92 MHz in London, as long as utilization of those frequencies does not impair the coverage of Global TV Channel 6 in the London market.

4100             Successful negotiation of these agreements could result in the creation of at least three usable channels that we know of below 92.  The best one is the 91.1 MHz frequency that was originally applied for by some of the applicants, and there are two other channels that we know of in the 89 MHz area.

4101             In addition, there are a couple of frequencies ‑‑ possibly 94.1 and 107.9 ‑‑ which might be used in London.  Our technical consultant advises that these frequencies are limited in coverage, but with finessing their patterns, antenna systems or antenna transmitter placements, they could possibly provide usable coverage.

4102             I would cite Mr. Veroba's comments just recently regarding some usable adjacent frequencies.

4103             This is all to say ‑‑ and the conclusion I want to leave you with ‑‑ that though there is only one official frequency that has been approved in the technical briefs you have seen for the commercial applications this week, there are several reasonably probable possibilities which could be used to develop new FM channels in the London area.

4104             My third point regards the definition of an independent operator.

4105             Forest City wishes to comment on what defines an independent operator.  We have heard several applicants in Phase I refer to themselves as independent operators.

4106             In our view, the addition of a new, independent operator contributes to the Commission's goals of promoting diversity of ownership and diversity of editorial voices in the market.

4107             How do you get there?  Who is independent?

4108             To be independent, we think, you have to be an operator which has no broadcasting or media activities existing in the market.  This would include radio, television, community television stations, market‑originated publications, or other media.

4109             To us, independent means no other broadcast or related media interests in the market.

4110             In closing, Forest City wishes to thank the scores of supporting intervenors from the London community who have understood and endorsed our vision to provide a new, independent, viable radio service for London.

4111             We particularly wish to thank and acknowledge Jim Scott and David Firth from the Kiwanis Festival of London, who appeared here yesterday before you, and Rob Gloor from Orchestra London for showing excellent and unwavering support for our application.

4112             We look forward to your deliberations, and feel very confident that we can put Boomer 98.1 on the air in London successfully.

4113             I want to thank you personally, Chairman Arpin, Commissioners, and Commission staff, for hearing us out and attending to our application.  Thank you very much.

4114             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Kirk.

4115             Madam Secretary.

4116             THE SECRETARY:  Finally, I would invite Sound of Faith Broadcasting to come forward.

4117             I would ask you, please, to reintroduce yourself for the record.  You will have 10 minutes.

REPLY / RÉPLIQUE

4118             MR. MacDONALD:  Good morning, Mr. Chair and members of the Commission.  It is a pleasure to be here before you again.

4119             I am Dave MacDonald, and I am the Coordinator of Applications for Sound of Faith, and also the General Manager of our station in Kitchener.

4120             To my right is Dr. Robert Reid, Chair of our Board.

4121             To my left is Dale Elliott, General Manager of our existing station in London, Grace FM.

4122             If I could, I would like to address a couple of points that have been brought up in this part of the discussion.

4123             First of all, the Blackburn people, Ron Dann, indicated that he had approached us with this plan so that we could remain on 105.9.  While we are very grateful to Mr. Dann and his associates for their offer of assistance, we would still prefer that we would get 99.9, since it would give us wider coverage than trying to expand on 105.9 would, partly due to the fact that we have a protected station in Alymer for which we would have to be putting up directional antennas and that sort of thing.

4124             So, while we appreciate their offer, we certainly would still prefer to see our application approved as it stands.

4125             I would also like, very briefly, to respond to an accusation that Mr. Hunt made that I was questioning Mr. Grieve's integrity by saying that he would have appeared for us.

4126             I have known Mr. Grieve since he was a teenager, appearing as part of the Southern Gospel Quartet.  I have introduced him at many different concerts.  He is a good friend, a close friend, and is a very strong supporter of what we do at Sound of Faith.  I, in no way, intended to question his integrity.  I agree that he, indeed, did present an excellent presentation, and it certainly would have been beneficial to any Christian broadcaster to hear what he had to say.  My comment about him appearing for us only came out because, when I walked in the room and he saw me, he was surprised to see me here and wanted to know why I was here.  When I told him that we had an application, he said, "Oh, I wish I had known about that."

4127             That is where that came from.  I wasn't trying to indicate that he shouldn't be with United Christian Broadcasters, but simply that he would also be very much in support of what we have been doing, and are trying to do in all three of our communities.

4128             I have also been asked to read into the record our commitment regarding balanced programming in London.

4129             We would like to officially commit that we would do six hours of balanced programming per week.  We already do, I think, almost that much.  We have our Jewish program on the air.  We have a man‑in‑the‑street interview program that brings to all people in the community the opportunity to comment on various issues.  We have programs on health and wellness.  We already have several faith groups represented, church groups, of many different denominations, including Baptist and Pentecostal, which are about as opposite as you can get in their outlook.  We are always looking for ways to bring new people on the air.

4130             So we would definitely be prepared at this time to commit to a 6-hour per week balance in our programming.

4131             I would like to turn the microphone over now to Dale Elliott, who did some research ‑‑ and I was in the room with him while he was doing part of it ‑‑ on the interventions that came in through the internet and through other means.  He made some interesting discoveries.

4132             Dale, if you would like to take it over...

4133             MR. ELLIOTT:  Thank you, Dave.

4134             Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission, Sound Faith Broadcasting would like to briefly talk about some of the interesting discoveries that we made while going through the interventions that were filed with regard to UCB's application, as well as our own.

4135             First, we went through all of the support letters that UCB received, and we discovered that a large number of them came from the Belleville and Chatham areas.  We are puzzled as to why these people would support an application for London, since they would not be able to receive the signal.

4136             There were also a large number of form letters in the UCB file, and since there is no address on them it is not possible to determine where they came from, but one line in the letter made us wonder who they were aimed at.  It states:

"Currently I can only receive American Christian stations, and have heard of Christian artists who have been leaving Canada to work in America, because not many stations in Canada will play their music."  (As read)

4137             Surely no one in the London area who is aware of the existence of Grace FM would sign something like this.

4138             In addition, we know of no American Christian station that is available in London.

4139             So we think that the people who signed this letter had no knowledge of the London market at all.

4140             We also did some calculating, and results came forth that were very interesting, as well, to say the least.  There were 92 letters in support of the application that we had made, and, as far as we could gather, approximately 200 on file supporting UCB's application.

4141             In looking at each one individually, we found that roughly half of these were from out of town, as we referred to earlier.  That would leave about 100 letters from this market area, and, of those, only 35 to 40 of them were the misleading form letters, leaving roughly 65 local letters that we thought actually were supporting the application by UCB.

4142             However, as we read through them, we were surprised to find that a number of them, roughly 25 or so, talked about the difficulty in receiving the station and were asking the CRTC to give it more power; therefore, not referring to UCB at all.

4143             "How could this happen?" is our question.  We think that when people went to the CRTC website to intervene on our behalf, they were somewhat confused and saw "United Christian Broadcasters", and clicked on that, thinking that it was us, in fact.

4144             We estimate that UCB support letters are actually around the 40 number, as opposed to 200, or 350, as was referred to earlier, compared to the 92 for Sound of Faith.

4145             If you move those 25 letters that actually refer to us in their intervention from their file to ours, we would end up with about 117 support letters, which is nearly three times the amount that they actually were receiving.

4146             I would note, as well, that we appreciate Mr. James Hunt's supportive letter on our behalf.

4147             Just as a side note, I wonder if we could add all of their supportive letters to ours.

4148             We admit that this is not a scientific survey, but we did have fun looking at all the letters, and it appears that we have strong support from the support base of London.  We know that from our day‑to‑day operations with many of the ministries and churches in the London area.

4149             In closing, I would like to thank the CRTC staff for their help over the past few days.  They have been very helpful.  This is the first time that I have appeared at a CRTC hearing, and the staff made it a very positive experience for me, as well as my colleagues.

4150             I would like to thank the Commissioners, as well.  They were always ready to answer our questions, and they made sure that we understood the rules.

4151             Thank you, also, to you, Chairman, for giving us this opportunity.

4152             We would like to thank, also, each person who intervened on our behalf, as well as those who appeared here for us.

4153             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

4154             Would you like to add something?

4155             DR. REID:  I just want to say thank you.  I found the Commissioners and their support staff extremely helpful.  I am very impressed.  Thank you.

4156             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

4157             Staff made me aware of the mix‑up in the files, and I know that they are reviewing all of the letters that were received for Sound of Faith, as well as for UCB.  We will, surely, come up with the right files at some point in time.

4158             MR. ELLIOTT:  May I just say that we realize it is not completely based on the competition ‑‑ who receives more letters ‑‑ but we did think it was worthy to note that there was a discrepancy.

4159             THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, and I think it was very appropriate to draw our attention to it, and our staff is already taking the time to re‑work the filing.

4160             Commissioner Menzies would like to ask you a question.

4161             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  I have a question about the offer from Blackburn.  I didn't get a chance to ask them.

4162             Is it your understanding that their offer stands dependent on the outcome of this hearing, or independent of the outcome of this hearing?

4163             It is their offer, but I didn't have a chance to ask them, so I wanted to ask you what was your understanding.

4164             MR. MacDONALD:  My understanding was, I think, that it would be dependent ‑‑

4165             Of course, if we were approved, that would change the landscape and they wouldn't really need to make the offer.

4166             I think it was dependent on the outcome of this hearing.

4167             If we were to be turned down, they would be able to do this for us.  That was my understanding, but it really wasn't put down in terms that were that clear.

4168             I think the intent was that they would like to be able to perhaps expand their Sarnia operation in the future, and if we were to get 99.9, that might restrict their possible expansion plans.

4169             I think that's where they are coming from, but I don't know that for sure, they didn't say that.

4170             From our point of view, 99.9 is a much better frequency than expanding on 105.9 would be, because, as we have already pointed out, we have problems from Detroit already, and from the Alymer station.

4171             So, while we appreciate the offer, I think that 99.9 is still a better solution.  However, I was very interested to hear what Mr. Kirk had to say about the frequencies down lower on the band that Global may be willing to work with.  If there are, indeed, two or three frequencies down there, we would be very interested in that, too, should that become available in the future.

4172             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  The longer a hearing goes on, the more frequencies become available.

--- Laughter / Rires

4173             MR. MacDONALD:  That's true.

4174             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  I would just like to point out, too, that we do not think it was divine intervention that caused the fire alarm that gave us more time to gather our thoughts.

--- Laughter / Rires

4175             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

4176             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Gentlemen, thank you very much.

4177             This completes Phase IV of the London Public Hearing.  We will take a five-minute recess and start with the first application for the Guelph market.

--- Upon recessing at 1130 / Suspension à 1130

--- Upon resuming at 1135 / Reprise à 1135

4178             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  We will begin now Phase I of the Guelph portion of this Public Hearing.

4179             Madam Secretary.

4180             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

4181             For planning purposes, we would like to inform you that the Commission intends to hear, at least, Phases III and IV tomorrow.

4182             We will now proceed with Item 10, which is an application by Frank Torres, on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated, for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Guelph.

4183             The new station would operate on Frequency 101.5, Channel 268A, with an average effective radiated power of 326 watts, maximum effective radiated power of 1,550 watts, with an effective height of antenna above average terrain of 48.8 metres.

4184             Appearing for the Applicant is Ed Torres.

4185             Please introduce your colleagues.  You will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

4186             MR. E. TORRES:  Thank you, and good morning.

4187             Mr. Chair, members of the Commission, and Commission staff, my name is Ed Torres.  I am the President and Co‑Founder of Skywords Radio, and Chairman of CIDG‑FM.

4188             Thank you for hearing our application for a new blues format FM radio licence.

4189             Seated to my right is my brother Frank Torres.  Frank is the Chief Operations Officer at Skywords.

4190             Together, we founded Skywords in 1991, and today it is a national radio company, with offices in several Canadian major markets, including Ottawa, Halifax, Edmonton, and our head office in Markham.

4191             To my left is Robyn Metcalfe.  Robyn is the Vice-President of Programming at Skywords.  She worked in the Guelph market for Corus stations CJOY and CIMJ in the early 2000's.

4192             Robyn is also part owner in this application.

4193             On Frank's right is London resident Greg Simpson.  Greg has extensive radio experience in southwestern Ontario.  He served as Music Director for CJOE, and for 14 years was Music Director at CFPL.  During this time he was twice named Music Director of the Year by the Canadian Music Industry Awards.

4194             If our station is licensed, Greg will serve as Operations Manager of DAWG FM Guelph.

4195             Greg is also the Chairman of the Great Lakes Blues Society.

4196             In the second row, seated directly behind me, is Ron Ford.  Ron is a chartered accountant and the Chief Financial Officer for Skywords.

4197             To the left of Ron is Aubrey Clarke, Director of Business Development at Skywords, and former National Sales Manager.

4198             In the second row, to your far left, is Yves Trottier.  Yves is the former Operations Director at Couleur fm in Gatineau, and has held various PD positions prior to joining Skywords as the General Manager of Quebec Operations.

4199             Finally, beside Yves is Tod Bernard, the General Manager of Eastern Canada Operations for Skywords, and part owner in this application.

4200             MS METCALFE:  On August 26th, the Commission granted this group its first broadcast licence.  Radio Station CIDG-FM will broadcast from the nation's capital, and will be the first all-blues format commercial radio station in North America.

4201             The next stop in our plan to roll out the blues across Canada is here in Guelph.

4202             Our presentation today will illustrate that Guelph can sustain an additional entrant into the market.  We will increase plurality and provide the only independent news voice in Guelph, a counterpoint to the only voice in the market, that of Corus.

4203             We provide a missing, highly desired, extensively researched radio option to listeners in the region.  Our format will help break and launch new Canadian blues artists through commercial airplay of their music on FM airwaves.

4204             We have received over 1,700 letters of support for our blues radio station applications.  There are over 567 supporters for this application alone, including Chuck Jackson, Don Walsh, Downchild Blues Band, Grand River Blues Society, Great Lakes Blues Society, Liz Sandals, MPP Guelph, Karen Farbridge, Mayor of Guelph, and Peter Cartwright, City of Guelph Economic Development, whose letter I quote:

"Guelph City Council has identified, as one of its priorities, the redevelopment of our downtown.  This program is being led through my department, and one of the main action items relates to the creation of supporting cultural opportunities.  It is my opinion that Skyword's proposal would very much complement our objectives."

4205             We have commissioned extensive formal research by Sensus Research, an independent, third party research firm, into the viability of our proposed format in 10 markets across Canada, including Guelph.

4206             To supplement our formal research, we created an online survey at "bluesincanada.com", a website that we own, that has generated hundreds of responses.

4207             Overwhelmingly, we found in our research that blues is the first music choice for 30 to 60 percent of people, and it is almost universally accepted as a second choice.

4208             Guelph has a vibrant blues scene, championed by the Great Lakes and Grand River Blues societies, and is exhibited at the many area blues fests, which attract thousands of festival‑goers to the region every year.

4209             Guelph, also, is a highly desirable market for national advertisers.  The market constantly shows up on RFPs from major agencies.  However, with only two options for these advertisers in the market, agencies and local advertisers are forced to purchase out‑of‑market stations to reach this population.

4210             MR. BERNARD:  The City of Guelph ranked eighth in rate of population growth of major Canadian urban centres in the 2006 census.  Guelph's proximity to the Greater Toronto Area, its strong manufacturing employment base, and employment diversification, along with its strong population growth, show that Guelph is indeed an economically viable southern Ontario market.

4211             Recent findings from the Pembina Institute confirmed Guelph's economic viability in its August 2007 report, titled "The Ontario Community Sustainability Report."  Guelph ranked fifth for sustainability in communities across Ontario.

4212             The report looked at 33 indicators of sustainability, across three categories, including "Smart Growth", "Livability" and "Economic Vitality".

4213             Guelph's strong performance in this study shows that the Guelph region boasts a strong and vibrant economy that is diversified over many sectors.

4214             Recent expansions in Guelph's manufacturing sector are also indicators of Guelph's sustainability and ability to compete in these challenging times.

4215             In March of `07, Denso Manufacturing Canada announced a $64 million U.S. expansion project.  Denso is Toyota's leading parts supplier, but also manufactures parts for other major car makers, including Honda, Fiat, General Motors and Ford.

4216             This expansion project will see the addition of 300 new employees by 2010, and increase the size of the company's facilities by nearly 300 percent.

4217             Similarly, Canadian automobile parts manufacturer Linamar announced in May of `06 a five‑year expansion project, with a value of $1.1 billion, in conjunction with the provincial government, through its Ontario Automotive Investment Strategy Fund.

4218             Linamar, which produces auto parts for the North American and European markets, is expecting the creation of an additional 3,000 jobs with this expansion.

4219             Despite Guelph's high percentage of workforce in the manufacturing sector, the region shows diversification into other work areas, as well ‑‑ 5.7 percent of Guelph's workforce lies in the classification of "Professional, Scientific and Technical Services", 9.8 percent in the retail trade, 8.7 percent in health care and social assistance, and 11.3 percent in educational services.

4220             Clearly, the Guelph region shows diversification of workforce, along with sustained strength in its major employment sector of manufacturing.

4221             These contributing factors add to Guelph's overall economic viability, and are confirmed in the area's Top 5 ranking in the recent sustainability report for communities across Ontario.

4222             MR. FORD:  In light of the fact that the Skywords group has made multiple radio licence applications as part of our national radio network vision and strategy, we would like to outline our financial strength and capacity.

4223             In preparation of our business plan to embark on this national radio network strategy, and prior to making these applications, we reached an agreement with Mr. Joe Dwek and his company to finance the building and start‑up operations of a number of radio stations.

4224             Mr. Dwek, a chartered accountant, whose CA firm performs the annual year end review of Skywords Traffic, is extremely confident of the business acumen of the Skywords group, as shown by his acceptance of the financing arrangement.

4225             Upon the granting of the Ottawa‑Gatineau licence, we began discussions with our corporate commercial bankers to explore the optimal use of our internal resources to fund the new radio station.

4226             Final negotiations are pending, which would enable us to finance the Ottawa‑Gatineau operations without needing to access the third party funds provided by Mr. Dwek and his company.

4227             This further demonstrates our financial strength.

4228             MR. SIMPSON:  I moved to southwestern Ontario 40 years ago this past summer to further my chosen career in broadcasting and music, and, after all that time, consider the area from Toronto to Windsor my stomping grounds.

4229             One of the first things I discovered upon arriving was the diversity of music available not only in my chosen city of London, but all through the region.  In relatively short order, I expanded my pop and rock base to include bluegrass, folk, jazz, classical and, of course, the blues.

4230             Another thing I noticed is that the City of Guelph, which I knew initially as the home of two institutions that friends attended ‑‑ only one was a university ‑‑ was way ahead of the curve in its support of music outside the mainstream.

4231             Over the years I found myself in that city often to attend festivals of various kinds, and continue to make the journey up the 401 even today.  Such longstanding gatherings as The Hillside Festival and other events have always made the trip worthwhile, and during that time I had the pleasure of getting to know many of the city's residents, music lovers all.

4232             It seems that the music loved the most by those who live in and around Guelph is music that represents the roots of all popular music.  The blues, among the root forms, is the most popular of all, and yet mainstream radio continues to offer slight variations on the same two or three tried‑and‑true formats, all representing pop and firmly established rock.

4233             I don't doubt for an instant that their research tells the operators of those radio stations that they are doing the right thing to achieve maximum numbers, and, therefore, high sales figures, but I have always felt that when research is being done, perhaps they have been asking the wrong questions.

4234             It is not a coincidence that the CBC continues to experience extremely high numbers of listeners in the most cosmopolitan of all our cities, Toronto.  People are looking for an alternative to cookie‑cutter radio, and DAWG FM represents the best opportunity for an alternative that one could imagine.

4235             The blues is not niche music, it is the basis of all forms, save a few, currently offered by both pop and rock radio, and holds a pretty strong kinship with country music, as well.

4236             Everybody relates to the blues, and a community like Guelph, with its long history of accepting and seeking that which is not the same as everywhere else, would welcome and support the option of having something to listen to that speaks directly to them.

4237             Having spent my entire adult life in the music and broadcasting industries, I have found that blues fans cross the demographic spectrum.  Young, middle-aged and older music fans are represented at virtually every blues show that I have been involved with over the past 40 years.

4238             The same can be said for life circumstances, with audiences ranging from casual labourers to doctors and lawyers and politicians.

4239             At a typical show in London, where I reside, these diverse age groups and economic strangers share not just the room, but often the same tables, all in the name of the music they have come to see.

4240             The same is true of Guelph, which shares many of the same attributes of London, both in diversity of population and economic balance demographically.

4241             When music can bring people together the way the blues can ‑‑ and let there be no doubt that it does ‑‑ it represents a choice that doesn't immediately stamp the fan as being a hick, a square, a snob, or any other appellation applied to fans of other forms of music.

4242             In general, blues lovers are seen as music lovers, and the opportunity for them to have a station of their own should be recognized and supported here as a nod to diversity on the air, and a way to not exclude the most devoted fans of any kind of music.

4243             MS METCALFE:  Having lived in Guelph, I know firsthand how important the community and locality is to the residents of Guelph.  Working at the radio station in Guelph gave me an opportunity to partner with organizations like the Alzheimer's Society of Guelph and the United Way.  The people of Guelph really like to give back to their own.

4244             Having that knowledge of community and the city itself, I feel that DAWG FM will encompass everything that is important to Guelph residents.  Local news, sports and traffic will be a top priority.

4245             DAWG FM will give back by helping out the Guelph-Wellington Food Bank with food drives, and helping drive business back downtown, with our street‑level studios.

4246             When I worked for the Downtown Board of Guelph, the main action item on our agenda was to get the people of Guelph back downtown and away from the big box stores, to enhance the downtown experience.

4247             These are all things that are important to the City of Guelph and its residents, and I know what they are looking for in a radio station, as well.

4248             DAWG FM will be a positive and enjoyable workplace.  Passion for radio and a team mentality are central to building a community connection, and we will partner with the community to create a radio station that is locally focused.

4249             We like to say that we aren't the big "DAWG" on the block, but we have attitude.  Our radio station will have a brand, and it will have a feel.  The feel is the blues.

4250             We have done some advance work on our brand.  We would like to give you a glimpse into some of the image work we have done for our Ottawa station.  We like to call them "DAWG" tags.

--- Video presentation / Présentation video

4251             MS METCALFE:  I am proud to highlight the fact that our station will be a good corporate citizen, engaged and connected with our community, and environmentally responsible.  Yes, the blues are green.

4252             We take pride in proposing that DAWG FM will be carbon neutral, like our other station.

4253             DAWG FM promotions will be different.  Instead of a week in Mexico on a beach, listeners will win a blues tour of Chicago, Memphis, or New Orleans.

4254             Ratings promotions will see listeners whisked away on a cruise; not just any cruise, it will be a blues cruise ‑‑ bands on every level of the ship, playing into the late hours.

4255             MR. TROTTIER:  DAWG FM is not a specialty radio station, it is a Category 2 that will have success with audience and shares, a blues station with a popular and commercial sound.

4256             DAWG FM will not only attract blues fans, it will also have mainstream appeal, without infringing upon other formats.

4257             Blues music has had a massive influence on a number of genres, and Guelph will be pleasantly surprised at how much music they will recognize at 101.5 on the FM dial.

4258             DAWG FM will play 70 percent Cat 2 songs from the rhythm and blues and blues rock categories.  In Cat 2 we will play blues rock songs from blues artists, like "Flip, Flop and Fly" by the Downchild Blues Band, Colin James' "Into the Mystic", and "Look at Little Sister" by Stevie Ray Vaughan.

4259             We will play pop rock songs with a bluesy rhythm, like "Ain't No Sunshine" from Bill Withers, "Come Running" from Van Morrison, or "You Can Leave Your Hat On" by Joe Cocker.

4260             We will complete the lineup with popular pop/rock songs like "Suzie Q" from CCR, "American Woman" by the Guess Who, and "Fly Like an Eagle" by the Steve Miller Band.

4261             DAWG FM will play, as a Condition of Licence, a minimum of 20 percent of selections from Category 3 blues music, including classics like "Hootchie Kootchie Man", "Let the Good Times Roll", or "Mustang Sally".

4262             Our goal is to play 29 percent of blues music, the maximum that we can.

4263             For the benefit of emerging Canadian artists like JW‑Jones, Amos Garrett and Garrett Mason, 40 percent of all selections will be Canadian content.

4264             MR. F. TORRES:  Market research into the Guelph market was compiled by Sensus Research, and focused on providing an objective and unbiased assessment of this prospected format.

4265             The research points to a number of indicators to suggest that the DAWG format would be warmly received in the Guelph market.  Four in ten Guelph residents would consider listening to a new blues-oriented radio station.  Forty‑one percent of people surveyed answered that they would be likely to listen.

4266             Among this number were 13 percent who stated that they would be very likely to listen to such a station.

4267             Of the people who would be likely to tune to a blues-oriented station, nearly five in ten answered that, in doing so, they would likely increase the total amount of time spent listening to radio, including 19 percent who would be very likely to do so.

4268             This suggests that overall listenership would be augmented, rather than cannibalized from existing stations.

4269             Almost half of the sample was unable to recall any local stations that played a fairly recognizable list of blues artists.  Of those who could, 34 percent could identify just one.  Yet many could name two or more stations that played country, rock and Top 40.

4270             The research further confirms that a key demographic for this station is between the ages of 35 to 54, with secondary demos being 55 to 64 and 18 to 24.

4271             News and information is important to blues listeners.  Forty-six percent responded to the importance of news and information programming on the station.

4272             MR. CLARKE:  Our Canadian Content Development has been carefully designed to provide funding and promotion to Canadian national talent and to nurture the future of musical development in Guelph.

4273             Some of these initiatives include:  FACTOR will receive $15,000 annually, which will go to fund blues genre artists.  This is a substantial investment in musicians that will promote and help launch the careers and the music of emerging Canadian artists.

4274             Canadian Music Week will receive $15,000 annually to start a blues concert series and fund Guelph area blues musicians to attend music industry conferences.

4275             The Grand River Blues Society would receive $7,000 annually to continue their work of promoting and fostering the blues in the Grand River region.

4276             The University of Guelph School of Fine Arts and Music would receive $10,000 per year to support their music programs.

4277             MR. E. TORRES:  We initiated this call because we know this market.  We know that it is served by a single operator.  We have the experience of having worked in the market and for the market.

4278             We have seen advertising dollars, destined for Guelph, instead go to stations in Toronto, Brantford, Kitchener and other markets.  It is time to repatriate those dollars and those listeners who also tune out of market.

4279             The approval of this application will help add competitive balance to the Canadian broadcast system.  While all of the applicants are from mainstream formats at this hearing, our application is the only one that comes from a standalone, single, FM operator.  All of the other applicants have multiple stations, where they can realize economies of scale and synergies from similar operations.

4280             The approval of this application will allow DAWG FM that same economy of scale.  The approval of this application will accrue substantial benefits to the public and the 41 percent of Guelph residents who want to hear this music.

4281             We always like to say that we are the public's best friend, as you know.

4282             We will provide a format that is not currently available on conventional over-the-air radio.  It will repatriate listeners that tune to out‑of‑market stations, or listen to satellite or internet feeds for their desired blues program.

4283             It will benefit the Canadian blues industry, artists, promoters, venues and the like.

4284             Blues have arrived.  Marginalized and restricted by mainstream media, the internet and satellite radio have brought it back to the forefront.  The CRTC recognized this in August of 2008, granting the world's first commercial blues format at CIDG.  This licence allowed us to be first to market with this format.  It is our hope that you will license a second DAWG FM to maximize the efficiencies that other multiple licence holders benefit from, and to keep CIDG‑FM company.

4285             We will leave you with a metaphor, not a "DAWG" one, a hockey one, as we enter another season of hockey.

4286             Skywords is the backstop of our team, the solid, dependable, veteran goalie that we can rely on.  CIDG, our high-scoring centreman, will provide the offence.  We need, then, a couple of wingers and some "D" to play in this league.

4287             Thank you.  We will now take questions.

4288             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

4289             I would ask Commissioner Menzies to ask the first round of questions.

4290             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Good morning, and thank you.

4291             Parts of this will seem a little bit like "Groundhog Day", but I am going to try to move through those questions and get into some other areas.

4292             How much of your local news programming will be local?

4293             MS METCALFE:  We will have 60 percent local, 20 percent regional/national, and 20 percent international.

4294             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

4295             In your listing of expenses, it is not clear that the over and above is included in the CCD.

4296             Can you clarify that for us?

4297             MR. E. TORRES:  I believe that the CCD chart ‑‑ and I will flip to it.

4298             The total is the $50,000 annually, for a seven-year total of $350,000.

4299             The basic CCD is outlined in a schedule.  The basic CCD remains at $1,000 until Year 7.

4300             The over and above CCD, in that case, is $49,000 through to Year 6, and in Year 7 the over and above is slightly lower, at $48,015.

4301             The total CCD commitment is $50,000 a year.

4302             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  So that is all included in your listing of expenses.  Thank you.

4303             In the 13.8 hours of spoken word, does that include or exclude your plans for snowmobile reports and farm and agribusiness reports?

4304             MR. E. TORRES:  I believe that we refined the spoken word chart.

4305             Yves...?

4306             MR. TROTTIER:  We don't have the snowmobile reports on that.

4307             It's everything.  It's news, sports, weather, station promos ‑‑ some station promos could be included ‑‑ traffic, "DAWG Days", "Community Cruiser", entertainment, and the business report.

4308             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  So the snowmobile report would be in addition to that?

4309             MR. TROTTIER:  Yes.

4310             MR. E. TORRES:  The snowmobile report will be a seasonal report.  It will only happen in the winter, and this is really annual.

4311             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  It could last for a few weeks or a few months.

4312             MR. E. TORRES:  Correct.

4313             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thanks.

4314             The DAWG Music Camp, can you give us a bit more information on that, so that we know how it fits the eligibility requirements?

4315             MR. E. TORRES:  Sure.  The DAWG Music Camp is an initiative that we have started.

4316             We partner with the Grand River Blues Society, in this case.  Through the Grand River Blues Society, we find students that are eligible.  Again, they administer the program.  These would be students who are interested in music, and blues music.

4317             So it's a blues education program, and what we do is, we fund the artists that teach, and the instruments that are required, but it is set up and administered through the Grand River Blues Society.

4318             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  So it is all third party, and they create the budget for it.

4319             MR. E. TORRES:  Yes, and there are two parts to the CCD that involve the Grand River Blues Society.  The first part is a commitment of dollars to the Grand River Blues Society, which will mainly be used for them to promote and produce local music series that are blues genre specific.

4320             The DAWG FM Music Camp is administered by Grand River, but the money will flow directly to the artists, and directly to purchase equipment ‑‑ musical instruments.

4321             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Is that separate from or included in your other contributions to the Grand River Blues Society?

4322             MR. E. TORRES:  It's separate.

4323             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Just segue through that and do the same thing with the Grand River Blues Society.

4324             MR. E. TORRES:  Again, there are two components to the CCD.  The first is that the cheques would be made out to the Grand River Blues Society, and that is the CCD commitment of $7,000 annually.  That is for them to produce shows, to bring artists to live‑music venues.

4325             Then, there is the DAWG FM Music Camp, which is $3,000 annually.  That is money that, although it is administered by ‑‑

4326             The students are selected by and the program is administered by the Grand River Blues Society, but those payments don't go to the Grand River Blues Society, the payments go directly to the artists involved in the instruction.

4327             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  And then they pay the Grand River Blues Society for the instruction?

4328             MR. E. TORRES:  No.  The Grand River Blues Society ‑‑ much like Greg's program at the Great Lakes Blues Society, they try to not pass on the costs to the school.

4329             In effect, what we are doing is, we are sponsoring the artist, which normally the Grand River Blues Society would pay for to come in and provide the instruction.

4330             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  Thank you.

4331             And the same for the University of Guelph.

4332             MR. E. TORRES:  The University of Guelph program, again, is directly related to the purchasing of instruments for the University of Guelph.

4333             Again, that is totally administered by them.

4334             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  Thank you.

4335             How much of the programming in Guelph would be local live‑to‑air?

4336             MR. E. TORRES:  As is the case with all of our radio stations, except for the occasional six hours of syndicated programming that we want to keep a window open for, 120 hours would be live‑to‑air.

4337             So 24/7 staffing live‑to‑air.

4338             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  And that would all be local from the Guelph station, it wouldn't be ‑‑

4339             MR. E. TORRES:  Correct, yes.

4340             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Where will you get your syndicated programming from?

4341             MR. E. TORRES:  Our idea is, again, to look at products that are out there.  I think there is one that Dan Aykroyd hosts that might be a fit.

4342             Then, it is certainly our intention, as we ramp up operations in Ottawa, to create some programming that we could syndicate.  That might be something ‑‑

4343             Essentially, it will be up to the General Manager of the Guelph operation, or the Operations Manager and the Program Director there to make those final decisions.

4344             MR. SIMPSON:  I anticipate that if the DAWG network eventually comes into play, Ottawa will be producing for the rest of the network, Guelph will be producing for the rest of the network, London will be producing for the rest of the network, and then, through this method, regional acts from all of the locations where there are DAWG FM stations will be heard across the country, in specialty programming that is created for the network.

4345             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  How would you do that?

4346             If the grand vision becomes reality at some point and you have a network ‑‑ a blues network in that sense ‑‑ how do you keep regional?  How do you make sure, if you are in the maritimes, that maritimes blues artists are getting exposure across the country, and Vancouver ‑‑ West Coast artists are getting exposure across the network?

4347             MR. SIMPSON:  I don't know if I am the one to answer that question or it should be Yves, but the dedication to all Canadian blues would exist at any DAWG FM station.

4348             The networks that we have built up ‑‑ for example, in the network that I have built up in my years in the industry, I know the people who are recording blues artists all across the country.  I deal with them a lot in my job at Canadian Music Week.

4349             The network is solid, at least from my position.  I am sure that Yves has an equally solid network.

4350             MR. E. TORRES:  What we have seen ‑‑ we have been researching this format for the better part of two years, and what we have found in Canada is that we have a much tighter knit community than in the United States.

4351             In the United States you have your Chicago Blues, which is very different from your New Orleans Blues, and ‑‑ you have probably heard this answer before ‑‑ your West Coast Blues.

4352             In Canada, there are fewer venues to play.

4353             Matt Andersen, who is an East Coast act, played in Trenton six weeks ago, but because he was touring, he played in Ottawa, he played in Cornwall, and he hit a couple of spots in Montreal.

4354             So there is a lot of movement in the genre.  I am sure, if you asked Chuck Jackson, he could tell you about the Yale Hotel and the Blues on White.

4355             He mentioned, actually, that he just played Edmonton, and he was sorry that we didn't get the licence there.  He says that it's a great blues town.

4356             MR. F. TORRES:  I think that the nature of blues music and blues performers ‑‑ I was talking to Jack DeKeyser, and he does over 300 appearances a year, mostly in Canada.

4357             So these acts are touring quite a bit, and if we are able to provide a base like, for instance, our Ottawa‑Gatineau operation, where they know they can come and perform live, it would be very easy for us to represent all of the regions across Canada, because those acts are moving across Canada.

4358             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Right, which takes me into another area ‑‑ and you have referred to it a couple of times ‑‑ that the nature of the blues is a fundamental element in all kinds of other music forms.  Blues can be a bit of a shape shifter in that sense.

4359             How do you maintain your identity as a blues station?

4360             You have the 29 percent in terms of categories, but how do you maintain the identity as being blues, and identify people as being specifically blues, when, as you have described yourself, blues is The Rolling Stones, blues is Eric Clapton, blues is Van Morrison, blues is ‑‑

4361             It is sort of everywhere, so how do you take ‑‑

4362             MR. SIMPSON:  I would suggest that you maintain the identity by what you do not play, that the other radio stations play.

4363             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.

4364             MR. SIMPSON:  Yes, you will hear The Rolling Stones on other stations.  You will also hear AC/DC, and you are not likely to hear them on DAWG FM.

4365             Yes, you will hear blues‑influenced country on a country station, but you will not hear non‑blues‑influenced country ‑‑

4366             MR. E. TORRES:  It is part of the brand.  I mean, if we tell people that they are listening to a blues station, they may come to it with a pre‑conceived notion.  That's why we have stayed away from "Blues 102" as a handle.

4367             We are going to let them listen to the music, and then, in the IDs, that's where we will reinforce the brand, the fact that:  Hey, this is blues.  You probably didn't realize that you listen to the blues and you like the blues.

4368             We think that it is going to be an education process, but we are committed to it.

4369             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  Back to the application, in terms of technical things, I think you said 29 percent in the presentation, and I had 30 percent written down that you were willing to take on as a COL for subcategory 34, "Jazz and Blues".

4370             MR. TROTTIER:  As we said, we received a Condition of Licence for Ottawa of 20 percent of Cat 3, subcategory 34 music.

4371             To have a Cat 2 radio licence, you have to play a minimum of 70 percent Cat 2 music.  So we will play a minimum of 70 percent Cat 2 music, and our goal is to play 29 percent Cat 3 music.

4372             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  What my question was really getting at was, how will that be dispersed throughout the day?

4373             MR. TROTTIER:  It will be the same 6 to 6, and throughout the day it will be the same percentage.

4374             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  So it would just flow evenly throughout the day.  So between 7 and 8 in the morning would be the same as between 2 and 3 in the morning?

4375             MR. TROTTIER:  Yes, that's our goal.

4376             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Any interest in accepting that as a COL, as well?

4377             MR. TROTTIER:  Yes.

4378             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  That would be okay?

4379             MR. TROTTIER:  Yes.

4380             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Thank you.

4381             In terms of your business plan, it seemed a little optimistic, given the nature of the incumbents in Guelph, that you might get 35 percent of your Year 1 revenues by picking Corus' pockets.

4382             I am open‑minded on it, but I need to know how you came to that conclusion.

4383             MR. CLARKE:  Actually, I took a look at the chart and that was a typo error.  It was supposed to be 35 percent of Year 3.

4384             The numbers were calculated on Year 1, and accidentally ‑‑

4385             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  I'm sorry, I didn't quite hear you.  Thirty-five percent of ‑‑

4386             MR. CLARKE:  It was supposed to be Year 3 revenues.

4387             It was calculated on Year 1, but it was supposed to be calculated on Year 3 revenues, that whole chart.  It was a typo error.

4388             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  Thank you.

4389             Which out-of-market stations do you think are most likely to lose listeners from Guelph to you?

4390             MR. E. TORRES:  We think that we will likely affect Q-107.  We may affect The Hawk, and we may affect CBC.

4391             But because our format, again, is something that is not currently out there, and appeals to that 35 to 54 demographic that largely is tuning out of radio, as we have heard repeatedly through this proceeding ‑‑ and the research company shows that we really will have negligible impact on market players, in this format, in every market across Canada ‑‑ every market that we have tested.

4392             I mean, anecdotally, I think that we would take some rock listenership, but I don't think it will ‑‑ I think it will have a negligible effect on those stations.

4393             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  There is no specific area that you have done an analysis on that says you are most likely to get from ‑‑

4394             MR. E. TORRES:  I don't believe so.

4395             Aubrey, I don't think we did a specific analysis of ‑‑

4396             MR. CLARKE:  According to Sensus Research ‑‑ and I don't have the research here in my book, but from what I recall, the research shows that people who like blues listen to a variety of different formats, and from the formats they listen to, it shows that it would be evenly distributed ‑‑ coming over to DAWG FM.

4397             We don't think that we are going to cannibalize any one station, but we believe that we will pull listeners and revenues from a number of stations.

4398             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  On your research, my read of it was that the research ‑‑ the data that you presented, and collected, was based on a poll of 200 people.

4399             What is the margin of error on 200 people?

4400             MR. F. TORRES:  The margin of error is, plus or minus, 9 percent, and the confidence of the data is 95 percent.

4401             Because we performed a lot of these all across Canada, we had to debate what number would be ‑‑ what survey group ‑‑ what sample group would be adequate.

4402             We found that the difference in margin of error from a 150 to a 200 sample to a 600 or 700 sample is very minimal.  It is only about 2 or 2.5 percent.

4403             We found that the 95 percent reliability factor is quite acceptable to us.

4404             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  You still get 6.5 percent on a 600 or 700 sample?

4405             To me, just looking at it, if it says that 13 percent of the people would be very likely to listen to the blues, and you have a margin of error of, plus or minus, 9 percent, it could be as low as 4.  It could be as high as 22 on the upside.

4406             I guess all I am asking is for you to affirm your confidence that that's the number you are willing to invest in.

4407             MR. E. TORRES:  We don't have the research representative here, but we asked them this question repeatedly in Vancouver, as well, and, again, what you gain in the sample size is not really material to the end result.

4408             I think also when you are talking about surveys you have to look at the questions, you know, and a lot of the surveys that we see at hearings they ask ‑‑ since we are talking about surveys, they ask which formats are you more likely to listen to?  So they ask questions about rock formats and AC formats.  So they ask a listener a sample of eight or nine ‑‑ they give them an option of eight or nine existing formats that they can choose from and the results always seem to be skewed.

4409             So we didn't ask Would you listen to a blues‑oriented radio station, we asked questions with respect to artists and sound and music tracks.

4410             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  So what did you base your audience share projections on?

4411             MR. E. TORRES:  Again, Aubrey has done most of the leg work on this, but I think he will tell you that it's based on BBM data on all the research.

4412             MR. CLARKE:  Right.

4413             Another research that we are forgetting about is the ground level guerrilla marketing that we did by going into the market and going into the bars and serving the people ourselves, as well as what we get online from bluesincanada.com.  You know, the combination of all of that, along with the survey, BBM data, CBC blues radio shares, a combination of that is what we based our share on.

4414             MR. E. TORRES:  If I might just add on the surveys, because we have done 10 of these surveys in numerous markets across the country we get a very mean average.  We get a good idea of what the mean is.  So, you know, it's not that from sample to sample we are seeing huge variations, so again that may add to your question of size of survey.

4415             But we also look at our Blues in Canada survey has generated over 1,700 responses.  You know, that gives us very valuable data as to what our key demographic is and where they are located.

4416             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay, thanks.

4417             Do you have any idea how many local advertising dollars are leaving the Guelph area and so what the opportunity is for repatriation, that's advertisers in Guelph who are advertising with stations outside the area?

4418             MR. E. TORRES:  Well, with out of market tuning of 80 per cent, I mean with less respect to the local dollars I would hesitate to guess that it might be as high as 60 per cent of the potential ad budget is not getting spent.

4419             We see this.  The reason why, as we mentioned in our presentation, Guelph shows up on a lot of our national RFPs, right, so if we can just talk about national for a second.  It's with the rate of population growth that it's experiencing, rate of influx of the big box stores and larger retailers, it's a market that's in demand.

4420             And, unfortunately, there are only two options to reach Guelph and if you don't like that rate, then you have to go you have to buy spill stations and you have to buy the Toronto stations, you have to buy Brantford and Kitchener.

4421             Aubrey, I don't...

4422             MR. CLARKE:  Yes.  Also, I mean on Skywords we sell a lot of advertising across the country and many times when advertising agencies come to us we sell them out of market stations in order to hit the residents in Guelph.  So we know that there are a lot of dollars that are being missed.

4423             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.

4424             Have you  taken a look at your business plan in light of ‑‑ I mean this was filed some time ago, before the current economic turmoil.  Have you had a chance to review it and does it still hold up?  And, if so, why?

4425             MR. E. TORRES:  The numbers in the financial plan again are based on our experience in the market, the trends that we have seen, the spot rate that we know that the market sells at.

4426             Again, we took a conservative approach, so revenue figures from 648 to, at the upper echelon.  When you compare it to the other applicants in these proceedings, we are actually the most conservative in terms of our projections.

4427             Now, with all of our applications, yes.  Will we have to revise them downward because of current economic trends?  I think that is probably prudent.  There are some things that are going to ‑‑ you know, that the recent economic turmoil is going to affect and manufacturing is one of them.

4428             Because the dollar yesterday was at $.82 and we know that that has a direct proportional impact to manufacturing.  So we think the Ontario economy will start to march in lockstep with that dollar as it comes down.

4429             So it's hard to predict of course what the next 24 months, 12 months are going to bring, but we think that these predictions, these projections, will hold up.

4430             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Well, the good news for manufacturing is that the dollar is below $.80 today.

4431             MR. E. TORRES:  There you go.

4432             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  The last thing I wanted to touch on was, you talk about having an objective, a sort of key objective in this of they speak about launching new Canadian blues artists.

4433             How would you measure your success in that area?  You have a licence for Ottawa now for instance, I mean what ‑‑ having goals is always a good thing, but having measurable goals is an even better thing.  You do it with finances and that sort of stuff.

4434             How would you measure your success in launching new Canadian blues artists?

4435             MR. E. TORRES:  That's a good question and I will maybe throw that one around the table as well.

4436             I think that we haven't got a measurement tool or a yardstick yet, but I certainly ‑‑ part of what we do, we are going to very closely track our CCD.  We are going to give you detailed accounting on what that money does and where it goes and what kind of success we have had with it.

4437             So in terms of success, we have already had what I would deem some success.  We were asked to judge an emerging blues artist contest in Ottawa for the Ottawa Blues Society.

4438             So in terms of success we think that ‑‑ the Ottawa Blues Society wasn't going to hold that contest, they were kind of buoyed by the licence that was granted.  They decided at the last minute to hold that contest, they asked us to judge it, so I think that we are already having some success.

4439             But there will be yardsticks and there will be things that we quantify to the CRTC in our annual reporting.

4440             MR. F. TORRES:  I think also we have already seen some intangibles that, you know, really boost the morale of this entire process and this team.

4441             We were at the Vancouver hearings and one of our intervenors was a blues performer who was a great performer, had a very well produced a CD that he claimed couldn't get airplay on any of the radio stations locally, and at those hearings one of the applicant said:  Give me his CD and I will play it.  And he has been played since then.

4442             Again, do we have a yardstick to measure that at this point?  No, but we thought that we had already launched our first emerging artist before we even held a licence.  It's those types of small victories that we think we will be able to quantify en masse when we are licensed.

4443             MR. E. TORRES:  Robyn...?

4444             MS METCALFE:  And I think because it's a new format and a new radio station it's going to be baby steps, if you will, by seeing, I think first off, getting new blues artists in the market, getting them on our radio show, playing their CDs, seeing the excitement and excitement for that, and then getting patrons to go to their shows and seeing their shows increase, seeing them get more gigs across Canada.  I think it is going to be like a step‑by‑step process how we can measure that.

4445             MR. CLARKE:  All right.

4446             I personally spoke to Chase Parsons at Chris Smith Management who manages Nelly Furtado, they manage Tamia, they manage Jarvis Church, they manage Jacksoul and a number of Canadian artists.  Their artists have a lot of blues songs in their repertoire that they don't release because there is no outlet to release them, and when I told them about what we were endeavouring to do he was excited because he knew that his artist would have a way to release these songs as well, too.

4447             So I mean that's the way that we can measure success, by these current artists that are out there starting to release their blues music because there is a venue to release it.

4448             MR. BERNARD:  We also saw a great example of the effectiveness of, again, stations that are willing to play emerging artists in helping their careers.

4449             Just yesterday in Phase III the young musician from the east coast who supported the Evanov application, I think the question, to paraphrase, was asked, you know:  Previous to getting airplay on the Evanov station there, how many stations were you aware of where you had exposure in Canada?  I think it was essentially zero.  The young man couldn't get airplay in Halifax and when he subsequently did on the Evanov station the question was then asked:  Well, what happened?  And he quickly answered "Well, you know, I'm now being played on 15 stations across the country."

4450             So it was tangible evidence again of how stations that are willing to work hard for emerging artists can definitely accelerate those careers and in a very short period of time see those careers change for the better.

4451             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Just sort of one more question ‑‑ there might be another one, but one more question.  How do you envision your corporate structure working so that while you can take advantage of a national brand, you can still have a vibrant local identity?

4452             MR. E. TORRES:  I think that that's ‑‑ I mean there's a lot of broadcasters that do a very good job of that right now.  We would take our lead from them.  When you look at an easy rock brand or a BEAR or a Q brand, those are well‑established radio formats, they do a great job of producing local content, covering their local areas.  So a brand can be national and still provide a very much‑needed local service.

4453             I mean, we are very strong believers because our background is spoken word ‑‑ and we have said this a number of times also, but news and information is central to what a radio station does and the radio stations that do a good job of covering their local communities are the stations that are successful.

4454             COMMISSIONER MENZIES:  Okay.  Thank you.

4455             That concludes my questions.

4456             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

4457             Commissioner Cugini...?

4458             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4459             I just want to follow up on the discussion you had with Commissioner Menzies and that is ‑‑ and we have talked about this before at previous hearings, but it goes directly to the distinctiveness of your sound.

4460             Obviously research is conducted and it's conducted on the basis of what is available in the market and what is not available in the market.  But you have no control over what other applicants do in the same proceeding, so my question is this ‑‑ a phrase we all love to use:  If the Commission, in its wisdom, were to license you and one of the other two classic rock/new rock applicants, would you survive and what effect would it have on your business plan?

4461             MR. E. TORRES:  I believe absolutely we would survive.  I think in terms of numbers an easy answer might be it might have a 10 to 15 per cent effect on the overall business plan.  I don't think it would be substantially more.

4462             Again, we need to repatriate the dollars to the market that are going out of the market.  Because we have the national sales team we know where those dollars are already because we have worked in the market and for the market.  Again, that gives us an advantage we think over someone else.

4463             But sure, I'm not really pulling that number out of the air, we have been asked this question before, in particular with the classic rock.

4464             If you look at who is listening to radio in Guelph, I mean you have Q107 in there ranked in the top six.  We think that adding another rock format, you are still going to have Q107 in there in the top six.  Listeners to Q107 are not going to leave Q107 to listen to a local rock station.  Some of them are, but most of them are going to stick around.

4465             So when we look at the neighbouring markets of St. Catherine's and Hamilton, those two in specific, Q107 still pulls an equal amount of share of rock listeners from those markets.

4466             You know, the promotions ‑‑ and Robyn, we have talked about this before, the promotions are going to be better because Q107 has resources that a Guelph local station is not going to have.  The personalities are going to be the personalities that you have grown up with.  John Derringer has been at Q I think for close to 20 ‑‑ 20 years.  I think when we started Skywords and we were on Q he was the afternoon host.  So we don't think that those listeners are necessarily going to leave Q107.

4467             You know, our listeners are going to come from the great disenfranchised that are leaving radio.  Some of them are going to come from rock stations because we are playing tracks now that are different, so you are not going to hear Hotel California on our radio station.  We think that those tracks burned, but still we hear them in the rock marketplace every day.

4468             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Would the licensing of you and a classic rock/new rock station present a different challenge in terms of appealing to retail advertisers in particular in the market because both of you will be hitting the ground running, probably around the same time?  What is your pitch going to be to the local Toyota dealer who says "I'm all confused.  I'm all confused.  I already get that guy, you know, on this station, or I could get that guy on this new station and he may not be as well versed in music as you are."

4469             So how do you explain the difference to him and why he should perhaps advertise on both?

4470             MR. E. TORRES:  And I guess ‑‑ and I will ask Aubrey to expand on this, but I think we take in that CD that you saw yesterday and we say we are a blues station but here is the music that we are going to play.  It's a little bit different than what you are used to, but it is still going to be very mainstream.  And this is a demographic that it appeals to, it is 35 to 54 and here is our research.

4471             Aubrey, you are the professional...

4472             MR. CLARKE:  Right.

4473             It's also a lifestyle of the people who are listening to the blues music versus the lifestyle of people who are listening to, let's say, a classic rock or a rock station.  You know, we sell a lifestyle as opposed to music format.  So, you know, I have to give them a picture of maybe a Commissioner Cugini for instance that might be listening to the blues.

4474             So that's how we sell.  We sell to people as opposed to the music.

4475             Also, John Blaicher was here from the OFSC earlier and he spoke about us partnering with OFSC and us handling their media for them as well.

4476             That's an advantage at Skywords that we have.  There are a number of clients that we help them with their media so we already know where some of our revenue is coming from because we sort of control that revenue, you know, ahead of time.

4477             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I'm not sure flattery alone will get you a licence, but thank you.

--- Laughter / Rires

4478             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

4479             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

4480             Legal counsel...?

4481             MR. McINTYRE:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4482             I have just one point of clarification and it will be very ‑‑ it will sound very familiar to you guys.  Just a question about the Category 3 commitment.

4483             In the application you committed to 30 per cent and today you submitted 20 per cent.

4484             Is that correct?

4485             MR. TROTTIER:  Yes.

4486             MR. McINTYRE:  My follow up question is:  If we were to impose a 30 per cent requirement, would you accept that as a COL?

4487             MR. E. TORRES:  No, I don't believe we could accept a 30 per cent just because to be a Cat. 2 station we would need a buffer between the Cat. 2 and the Cat. 3.

4488             So we would be willing to accept 25 per cent, but we would prefer a 20 per cent condition of licence.

4489             MR. McINTYRE:  Thank you.

4490             I just have the one undertaking to read into the record, confirmation of financing availability by October 30th.

4491             MR. E. TORRES:  Yes, we undertake to provide that.

4492             MR. McINTYRE:  Thank you.

4493             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

‑‑‑ Off microphone / Sans microphone

4494             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  It's not recorded, ladies and gentlemen.

4495             So we will break for 90 minutes.  We will proceed again with the next item at 2 o'clock.

4496             Thank you.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1230 / Suspension à 1230

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1407 / Reprise à 1407

4497             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.

4498             Madam Secretary...?

4499             ASSISTANT SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

4500             Before we start, I wish to inform you for the record that the applicant United Christian Broadcasters have submitted responses to undertakings for the London market:  One, a revised financial assumption with explanation of depreciation; as well as the breakdown on spoken word and balanced programming; and, finally, a clarification on CDD initiatives.

4501             Those documents will be added to the public record and copies are available in the examination room.

4502             We will now proceed with Item 11, which is an application by Blackburn Radio Inc. for a licence to operate an English‑language FM commercial radio programming undertaking in Guelph.

4503             The new station would operate on frequency 101.5, Channel 268A, with an average effective radiated power of 132 W, maximum effective radiated power of 500 W, with effective height of antenna above average terrain of 40 m.

4504             Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Richard Costley‑White.

4505             Please introduce your colleagues and you will have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

4506             MR. COSTLEY‑WHITE:  Thank you very much.

4507             Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, Members of the Commission and CRTC staff.

4508             My name is Richard Costley‑White.  I'm sitting over here at this end this time.  I am the owner, Chair and Chief Executive Officer of Blackburn Radio Inc.

4509             Today we are presenting the second of our applications for a new FM service in southwestern Ontario.  Before we begin our presentation I wish to present the members of our team.

4510             To my right is John Weese, General Manager for the Wingham‑based radio stations and a long‑time media executive for Blackburn beginning in 1990.  John has 28 years in the media industry.  John put together our application and will quarterback our responses in the question period.

4511             To John's right is Justin Oliphant, the Program Director of The BULL, Blackburn's rock station in the Wingham.  While Justin is one of this industries youngest Program Directors, he is now entering his fourth year at the helm and has eight years of media experience in various capacities at various stations.

4512             To Justin's right is Gina Lorentz.  Gina is the Program Director for our Wingham‑based The ONE FM.  In the past she served as News Director for 570 news in Kitchener and in 2004 she accepted an Edward R. Murrow Award for best newscast in New York.  Gina provided valuable guidance in developing our proposals for news and information.

4513             Next to Gina is Andrew Campbell.  Andrew is the Agricultural Director and Farm Reporter for our CKNX stations.  With the large footprint of the University of Guelph in the Guelph market, Andrew will provide valuable direction and strength to our coverage of agricultural business, academic and science and technology issues.  Andrew will also host a weekly agri‑lifestyle program entitled "Farm Out".

4514             To Andrew's right is Joan Moore.  Joan is our specialist in the area of community marketing.  We are eager to tell you more about community marketing later in this presentation.

4515             In the second row, just behind me, are colleagues who are available to provide expertise and, if necessary, clarification.

4516             Starting from my right is Peter Doering of Peter Doering Consultants Inc. who conducted our format research.  Peter has 37 years of experience in market research.

4517             To his left is Rob Enders our Director of Engineering who can address any technical issues.  Rob has over 20 years of industry experience and came to Blackburn 10 years ago from Q107 in Toronto.

4518             Next to Rob is our Promotions Coordinator David McTeague.  David recently came to us from FLOW in Toronto and he specializes in creating and executing listener support initiatives, including live on‑location broadcasts, hosting and emceeing of community events and general contests and promotions.

4519             David is also responsible for content development and website management in Wingham.  He will play a lead role in developing The DUKE's web presence.

4520             Next to David is Blackburn Radios Canadian Content Development Coordinator and long‑time radio executive Walter Ploegman.  Walter will speak to the specifics of our $280,000 pledge for Canadian Content Development.

4521             Finally, beside Walter is Jason Ploegman who is Blackburn's emerging technology point person.  Jason has been particularly involved in developing a web strategy for our company, including the construction of websites to accommodate local and emerging artists in our southwestern Ontario properties.

4522             Earlier in these hearings I appeared with our London team to present our application for an adult album alternative station.  Today our proposal is to bring local competition for the first time to Guelph radio with a broad‑based rock format that serves the large demographic that must listen to out of market radio to meet its needs, men from 18 to 54.

4523             While the two formats we are proposing may seem quite different, what they have in common is the Blackburn approach based on strong and independent local management and strong local service, anchored in large news departments and community service initiatives.

4524             At the same time, our stations benefit from back office synergies, the experience of our team in putting successful local stations on air and access to news and programming resources of other nearby stations.

4525             With autonomous locally‑based station management, 101.5 The DUKE will be an enthusiastic partner for the City of Guelph.  Our staff will embrace the opportunity to contribute to local events and causes.