TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

                      SUBJECT / SUJET:

Unresolved issues related to the accessibility of

telecommunications and broadcasting services to

persons with disabilities /

Questions en suspens concernant l'accessibilité des

services de télécommunication et de radiodiffusion pour

les personnes handicapées

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

Conference Centre                     Centre de conférences

Outaouais Room                        Salle Outaouais

140 Promenade du Portage              140, Promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                      Gatineau (Québec)

November 19, 2008                     Le 19 novembre 2008

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

                 Transcript / Transcription

Unresolved issues related to the accessibility of

telecommunications and broadcasting services to

persons with disabilities /

Questions en suspens concernant l'accessibilité des

services de télécommunication et de radiodiffusion pour

les personnes handicapées

BEFORE / DEVANT:

Leonard Katz                      Chairperson / Président

Elizabeth Duncan                  Commissioner / Conseillère

Timothy Denton                    Commissioner / Conseiller

Suzanne Lamarre                   Commissioner / Conseillère

Candice Molnar                    Commissioner / Conseillère

Stephen Simpson                   Commissioner / Conseiller

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Sylvie Bouffard                   Secretary / Secretaire

Kathleen Taylor                   Hearing Manager /

                                  Gérante de l'audience

Martine Vallée                    Director, Social Policy /

                                  Directrice, Politiques

Sheila Perron                     Hearing Officer /

                                  Agente d'audiences

Lori Pope                         Legal Counsel /

Véronique Lehoux                  Conseillères juridiques

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

Conference Centre                 Centre de conférences

Outaouais Room                    Salle Outaouais

140 Promenade du Portage          140, Promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                  Gatineau (Québec)

November 19, 2008                 Le 19 novembre 2008

- iv -

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

                                                 PAGE / PARA

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

SaskTel                                           618 / 3546

Regroupement des aveugles et amblyopes du Québec  700 / 4126

Edwin Ross Eadie                                  737 / 4332

Canadian Hard of Hearing Association in Hamilton  769 / 4514

VRS Consultative Committee of BC                  819 / 4828

Ryerson Centre for learning technologies          849 / 5024

Canadian Cable Systems Alliance Inc.              865 / 5116

Joe Clark                                         913 / 5431

Gatineau, Quebec / Gatineau (Québec)

‑‑‑ Upon resuming on Wednesday, November 19, 2008

    at 0902 / L'audience reprend le mercredi

    19 November 2008 à 0902

3534             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  We are about to start Day Three of this proceeding.  A couple of preliminary matters before we start.

3535             First, we are going to have another first for the CRTC today.  There are a number of videoconferencing linkups that will be taking place today through Vancouver, Winnipeg and Toronto, so we ask for everybody's support in trying to work the process out.  There will be support staff in some of these locations as well, so we will try and time things as best we can with the intent of not disrupting anybody else's evidence or interventions or cross‑examinations.

3536             With that said, I will pass it on to Madam Secretary.

3537             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

3538             Good morning.  Bonjour, tout le monde.

3539             Before we begin, I would like to go over a few housekeeping matters.

3540             For the benefit of those who were not in the room yesterday, I would like to remind everyone that when you are in the hearing room we ask that you completely turn off and not only leave on vibration mode your cell phones and Blackberrys as they cause interference on the internal communication systems used by our translators and interpreters.

3541             Please note that ASL and LSQ sign language interpretation services will be available throughout the hearing if needed.  Please advise the Hearing Secretary if you require such services.

3542             Furthermore, English and French captioning of the hearing is available on the screens to my left, as well as on the CRTC's web home page.  If you require assistance during the consultation, our staff members in and outside the hearing room or in the public examination room will be pleased to help you.

3543             Any parties planning to apply for their costs, who are unfamiliar with the application forms or process, are invited to speak with Commission counsel during a break for information.

3544             We will now proceed with our panel No. 12, SaskTel Telecommunications.

3545             Please introduce yourselves and proceed with your 15‑minute presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

3546             MR. MELDRUM:  Good morning.  My name is John Meldrum.  I am the Vice‑President and Corporate Counsel of Regulatory Affairs for SaskTel and with me today is Duncan Kroll, Director of Regulatory.

3547             First of all, with respect to last Friday's interrogatories, we do prefer to provide answers at the end of our presentation as we will probably provide some context for some of the Commission's questions.

3548             The exceptions would be questions (g) and (i), which we undertake to respond by November 28th.

3549             We are pleased to have the opportunity to make our presentation and to answer your questions today.

3550             As you may know, SaskTel is celebrating its 100th anniversary as a leading communications provider in the province of Saskatchewan.  Over those years, SaskTel's commitment to Saskatchewan people has been the one constant in a time of change and innovation.  Whether delivering the latest wireless technology or plain old dialtone, SaskTel always keeps Saskatchewan and the particular needs of its communities, families and residents in mind.

3551             We are acutely aware that the communications tools we offer have become critical for Saskatchewan people to fully participate in society and improve their quality of living.  With that awareness comes responsibility and accountability.  As a result of SaskTel's status as a Crown corporation, all Saskatchewan residents, including persons with disabilities, are not only customers but owners of SaskTel.  This generates a keen interest on SaskTel's part to pay close attention to customer services, including accessibility issues.

3552             To use a football analogy in this Grey Cup week, this means the service yardsticks that we are measured by often are different than those experienced across the country.

3553             Consequently, SaskTel has undertaken many activities and initiatives to ensure that these customers have access to telecommunications and broadcasting products and services.

3554             SaskTel is adhering to the many requirements established by the Commission to reduce accessibility obstacles.  At times, often at the request of the Saskatchewan disability community, SaskTel has adopted specific programs or services that exceed national requirements.

3555             I don't want to give you the impression that we believe that we are perfect in our response to the needs of our customers with disabilities.  No one is or ever will be, given the pace of change in our industry.

3556             We try, however, to maintain a diverse range of products and services which improve the accessibility of our communications services.  We concentrate our efforts on building strong, ongoing relationships with the disability community in Saskatchewan.  We continue to strive to be responsive to the communication needs of our customers and to satisfy those needs within the limits of our available resources.

3557             In that regard, our views on the five major services identified by the Commission in its letter of October 6, 2008 are summarized and attached to our comments today.

3558             In the time remaining, we would like to speak to several themes that have emerged from the public proceeding.

3559             Accessibility.  SaskTel agrees that communications products and services should be made accessible to persons with disabilities to the extent that is readily achievable; that is, weighing the benefit to be delivered by a measure against the technological requirements and limitations, associated costs and the impact of the measure on the population at large.

3560             However, most of the issues regarding the accessibility of communications services generally deal with terminal equipment, and it is commonly agreed that accessibility is best accomplished in the initial design and development of products and services rather than attempting to modify specific devices after the fact.

3561             In this regard, SaskTel notes that it does not design or develop the vast majority of the products or services that we offer; rather, we market products and services that have been developed by others.  Nor is SaskTel, as a small communications provider, in a position to influence the design and development of such products and services.

3562             In spite of that, there is a constant appeal that service providers, including SaskTel, take the lead in ensuring that products and services are made accessible to all people with disabilities.  It appears to us that those who voice that appeal fail to understand that a company the size of SaskTel, or the whole Canadian industry for that matter, can exert very little influence upon manufacturers of equipment by which communication services are delivered.  We simply do not have the mass of consumers to match those of Europe and Asia where manufacturers are focusing their attention.

3563             As ARCH has noted in a comments in this proceeding, there are many fronts where accessibility initiatives are being advanced, including Internet and computer technology and telecommunications.

3564             The Neil Squire Society which preceded us reports that its research and development group researches and creates devices, technologies and products to facilitate and improve the quality of life for people with disabilities.  There is an Assistive Devices Industry Office within Industry Canada.  The ADIO website identifies 23 different business organizations in Canada involved in research and development of assistive technology, largely addressing communications services.

3565             Seventeen educational institutions with departments, divisions or programs in assistive technologies are also identified on the ADIO website.  The Center for Learning Technologies at Ryerson University, a participant in this proceeding, and the Adaptive Resource Center at the U of T are but two examples.

3566             Similarly, in Saskatchewan there are long‑standing agencies such as Saskatchewan Abilities Council and the Saskatchewan Association for Community Living which continue to play a prominent role in accessibility issues.  These supporting entities should not be ignored, nor should it be assumed that service providers are the sole source of improving the accessibility of communications services for people with disabilities.

3567             Affordability has also been raised.  We acknowledge that affordability of services affects their availability.  However, disabilities are diverse and varied.  As has been noted in the proceeding, every Canadian is likely to have a disability sometime in their life, some permanent and some temporary.  It is also said that people with disabilities are not a static group but that they vary and grow over time.

3568             Some have suggested that all telecom products and services be fully accessible by all people regardless of disability now and in the future.  This broad perspective on disability and its impact on the accessibility of communications services places a daunting task before service providers to ensure that they have affordable services that aid accessibility.

3569             SaskTel has described a variety of services and other accommodations it makes available to its customers.  Many of these accommodations are made available at no charge or at prices lower than might otherwise be charged.  With very few exceptions, such as the initiatives that SaskTel proposed for the disposal of its deferral account, these services and accommodations were established well before SaskTel came under federal regulation.

3570             But if the boundaries of disability we just described are to be used to guide the development of accommodations for our customers, a serious question arises as to the capability of service providers to make available the required services at prices that are affordable.

3571             In our view, due consideration must be given to the potential and significance of other sources to address affordability of communications services.  Across Canada there are a variety of governmental, nongovernmental and community based organizations and programs devoted to addressing and improving accessibility to communications services.

3572             For example, in Saskatchewan the Ministry of Social Services Social Assistance Program makes provisions for utility allowance which may be available to cover costs for basic telephone service and other utilities.  Funds may also be available to cover the costs of special telephone equipment for a person with a disability.

3573             In its last budget the Government of Saskatchewan announced over $20 million to support the inclusion of people with disabilities, which includes a doubling of tax credits for people with disabilities.

3574             Most recently, in its Throne Speech the provincial government announced the development of a new disability income strategy in order to review and improve income support.

3575             It is our firmly held view that service providers should not continue to be relied upon as the parties with the primary responsibility to address issues of affordability.

3576             In terms of collaboration for solutions, the issues of improved consultation and collaboration on issues of accessibility are the two most broadly addressed themes of this proceeding.  We strongly support the view is better for all parties when solutions are developed through a collaborative and consultative process, creating understanding, mutual trust and commitment between service providers and the affected stakeholders.

3577             The success of such consultation depends greatly upon the framework of the process.  In our experience, the most productive consultations and concrete outcomes arise when they are focused and purposeful.  Successful collaboration among parties also requires respect for priorities and the resources available to address them.

3578             Perhaps most important is the creation of an open door policy where parties directly engage one another and work toward building a shared effort to meet common goals.

3579             In our view, this collective effort is best established through the Saskatchewan disability community, providing SaskTel with their expectations, needs and priorities.  That is why we strongly believe that those consultations are most successful when conducted at a regional rather than a national level.  In our case regional means provincial.

3580             We believe that SaskTel already has an effective working relationship with provincial disabilities groups by focusing its attention on serving the needs of its customers and we take pride in our record of responding to those needs.

3581             Having said that, we do recognize the value in participating in national consultations on specific topics when these topics are of a national nature.

3582             As an example, we think that it is of paramount importance that the issues regarding the establishment and provision of video relay service be addressed at the national level.  This is a service which the deaf and hard of hearing community of Saskatchewan has identified to us as a priority, but which we both understand would not be feasible for SaskTel to provide on its own.

3583             In terms of the need for regulation, many of the participants in this proceeding representing the disability community call for increased or different regulation to improve accessibility of communications services.  SaskTel does not believe this is warranted.

3584             The Commission has correctly forborne from regulating telecommunications terminal equipment.  We support the Commission's conclusion that Industry Canada should be responsible for ensuring accessibility of terminal equipment.

3585             The Commission also retains the ability to address issues of accessibility in telecom and broadcasting through establishing the terms and conditions of any service offering.  Added regulation is inconsistent with the federal government's policy directive which calls upon the Commission to avoid regulating where it is not necessary and to rely upon market forces to the greatest extent possible.

3586             In that regard, SaskTel shares TELUS' view that innovation will drive more accessibility.

3587             The availability of SMART phones with their text messaging capabilities has met the needs of many deaf and hearing impaired persons.  Those phones did not arise as a result of regulatory fiat, they were made available by manufacturers responding to the capabilities of new technology.

3588             Our introduction of voice to text messaging was motivated by the notion of providing our customers with the ability to receive messages without having to access their voice mailbox.  That it also improved accessibility for the hearing impaired is another benefit.  Although SaskTel does not believe that additional regulation is required, if established by the Commission it should be applied to all service providers.

3589             This again would be consistent with the policy direction which directs that regulatory measures that are not of an economic nature should be implemented in a symmetrical and competitively neutral manner.

3590             In closing, SaskTel can assure you that we will continue to make progress on accessibility issues in Saskatchewan.  As has been our tradition, we are committed to directly engaging the disability community and taking our direction for service improvements from those affected groups.  This model has worked well in Saskatchewan.

3591             While SaskTel understands that the Commission has a responsibility to ensure that accessibility issues are adequately addressed across the country, we sincerely hope that the outcomes or determinations of this process not divert SaskTel from devoting the attention to our customers that they deserve and have come to expect.

3592             SaskTel's recent annual report stated:

"With tens of thousands of people having worked for SaskTel over the years and decades of building social capital in Saskatchewan, our record is just as much about people and relationships as it is about getting affordable world‑class communications technologies into our customers' hands." (As read)

3593             Our relationship with the disability community in Saskatchewan is illustrative of this record.

3594             We would like to thank the Commission for the opportunity to appear today.  We are ready to move forward in partnership with Saskatchewan residents with disabilities, their families, community based organizations, the Saskatchewan government and the Commission.

3595             In terms of the interrogatories, first of all, the status of our IP relay project, generally the project at the corporation is not at a state where many of the questions could be answered as we have been concentrating on the entire future of our Operator Services Group.

3596             We do require a major technology change‑out in our Operator Services Group and unfortunately that has distracted us.  We will be continuing with operator services and we are in the process of arranging for that technology change‑out.

3597             That gives you sort of the background as to why we are not quite as far along as we would hope to otherwise be.

3598             In terms of cost per minute of IP relay service, that isn't available yet because we are not as far along as we hoped.

3599             In terms of migration of minutes from MRS to IP relay ‑‑ this would be question (b) ‑‑ we don't have anything specific, but we do certainly expect that there would be some migration.  But we do in general note that there are many other factors that are impacting the volume of MRS already today and those of course are text messages, e‑mail and of course increasing needs for people to be able to communicate.

3600             In terms of monthly cost to users of MRS, IPRS and VRS, our MRS costs are not centralized.  The service is offered by all of our operators as part of an integrated work station.  We would have to do a cost study if we were to provide ‑‑ if we were to be able to provide the cost of MRS.

3601             I should say by background that we do not charge our customers for MRS.  It is not a separate bill line.  The service we believe came into being in about 1987, and when we became regulated in June of 2000 it was embedded in our rates at that time.

3602             With respect to VRS, we do know that we have 300 registered message relay service customers today.  We can easily extrapolate the costs over that base of customers.  We have heard an estimate of perhaps upwards of $50 to $100 million a year for video relay service.  We certainly hope that it is nowhere in the ballpark.

3603             But if you extrapolate that over our registered TTY users, that would be between $5,000 and $10,000 per year per registered user today.  It would strike me that if the costs are that high that that perhaps would be on the other side of the reasonableness line, and certainly we believe that the Commission needs to fully understand these future costs before embarking on VRS service.

3604             Question (d), the date we plan to begin offering IP relay service, we have committed to the Commission to June of 2009.  That is still our target, but we are afraid that that may slip as we get deeper into the analysis.

3605             Hours of availability ‑‑ this would be question (e) ‑‑ we believe it should be 24/7.  Anything else wouldn't make any sense.

3606             Question (f), language availability.  We have not had any demand whatsoever for French message relay service, so today we do only provide an English service for message relay in Saskatchewan.  In the future we would see IPRS as been English only for us.

3607             Territory available, (g), that is an intriguing question.  We think the answer is Canada but we will undertake to provide a formal response on that one.

3608             Compatible devices.  Our expectation would be that if a device can access the Internet, then it should be able to access IP relay service.

3609             And last but not least, question (i), again an intriguing question, and we will file a response by November 28th.

3610             Duncan and I would be pleased to answer any questions of the Commission.

3611             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Meldrum.

3612             We will begin the questioning with someone that I think you are very familiar with, Commissioner Molnar.

3613             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Good morning and welcome.

3614             I'm going to address you as Mr. Meldrum and Mr. Kroll and I will address my comments to you, Mr. Meldrum, and you can redirect as you choose.  Okay?

3615             Thank you for your opening remarks.  They are very complete and very inclusive.  So I will apologize right up front if I'm going to ask a question that is half answered here.

3616             I have questions for you related to telecommunications, related to customer service and related to BDUs.

3617             Let's begin with the telecommunications side of this.

3618             You did provide, and we appreciate you providing the answers to the potential undertaking, the questions that were sent out on your IP relay service.

3619             Before we get into IP relay service, I would just like to step back a little bit on message relay service.

3620             You mentioned that you offer it as an integrated platform with your operator services and that you don't have a cost study.  I am very interested, however, in understanding what are the major components, cost components, of providing message relay service.

3621             I understand that SaskTel provides, for example, the TTY units themselves free of charge to users.  Operators are another cost component.

3622             Are you able to discuss here today what are the major cost components of message relay service or would you like to get back to us with that?

3623             MR. MELDRUM:  Yes, we would have to undertake to provide you that.

3624             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.  At this point I don't think we are looking for an actual cost study, but I would like to understand what all is contained.  I mean there is a rate.  I think your rate is what to message relay ‑‑ while you say it is embedded, it is a separate rate.  I know that it is, for example, imputed in your subsidy requirements and so on, so there is a separate rate or separate component of the rate for message relay.

3625             Do you know what that rate is?

3626             MR. MELDRUM:  No.

3627             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  No?

3628             MR. MELDRUM:  We will have to undertake that.

3629             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Sorry, I have it, but I have been told not to lift my screen or you won't see me.  I think it's about 25 cents.  So some component of that rate is covering off with the TTY.

3630             Obviously there are operators.  And what are the other cost components?

3631             You also mentioned that there are other technologies and services that are available that have already impacted upon the demand for message relay service: text messaging, instant messaging and so on.

3632             Do you have information that you could provide to us related to the quantity or the demand for message relay over the past ‑‑ I would like five years, if you have that.

3633             MR. MELDRUM:  We do have three years.  We will see if we can get five and we will file it as well.

3634             Certainly 2006 to 2007 the volume dropped by about 10 per cent, and in 2008 we are expecting that drop to be more significant than that.

3635             Again, we are thinking that it is text messaging and e‑mail that is really replacing it.

3636             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Yes.  I think that's a logical conclusion.  It's obvious that some of these new technologies are valuable and useful tools for persons who are deaf.

3637             So yes, if you have that information, I would appreciate it.

3638             As we move into the issue of IP relay service, you mentioned you had not begun because you are doing an overhaul of the operator services.

3639             MR. MELDRUM:  Well, we have done some work but we are not as far along as we would like to.  They have been dealing with the issue of whether we would try and provide it in‑house or whether we would contract it out.

3640             I believe they have reached the conclusion that they want to contract it out and I believe they are now in the process of working with potential vendors.

3641             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.  So if as a result of this proceeding we were to determine that it made sense to have a national IP relay service versus a regional service, would that affect the monies you would need to spend on your trial?

3642             MR. MELDRUM:  Well, we did have the money that was allocated out of the deferral account.

3643             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Right.

3644             MR. MELDRUM:  I guess certainly that would have to be redirected if there is going to be a national service.

3645             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  So the majority of that money is still available?

3646             MR. MELDRUM:  Yes, for sure.

3647             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  And could be redirected if that determination was made?

3648             MR. MELDRUM:  For sure.

3649             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Would you have information or be able to file information as regards how much of that money would still be available?

3650             MR. MELDRUM:  We can certainly file that, yes.

3651             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Yes?

3652             MR. MELDRUM:  We think it is virtually all the money.

3653             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Virtually all is still remaining?

3654             MR. MELDRUM:  Yes.

3655             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.

3656             MR. MELDRUM:  There would have been some work that would have been done, but it is really internal work.

3657             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Pardon?

3658             MR. MELDRUM:  There would have been some work that would have been done that I suppose ends up getting costed out, but I don't think it's huge.

3659             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Right.

3660             So let me just talk briefly about a national IP relay service, separate from video relay service, a national IP relay service.

3661             You have stated that you believe it's the way to go.

3662             Oh, I'm sorry, you talked about video relay.  What are your views on national IP relay service?

3663             MR. MELDRUM:  I don't think there is anything particular to SaskTel or the province of Saskatchewan that would dictate it being a regional service.  So if it makes the most sense to provide it on a national basis, which it likely does because then you can access economies of scale, I would think we would be supportive of that.

3664             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  As it regards service providers, I think you mentioned that you are looking at potentially contracting out if you proceed with your regional.

3665             Would you see any particular issues related to having this contracted out separate and apart from the telecommunications service providers themselves?

‑‑‑ Pause

3666             MR. MELDRUM:  Can I just get you to repeat the question, please?

3667             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Yes.  My question is ‑‑ I mean, message relay has been primarily provided by the telephone service providers themselves.  IP relay service, there are of course companies we know in the States, for example, who provide the service.  It is a separate and unique service and different companies contract their resources.

3668             Would you see that same model working here in Canada?

3669             Is there any reason that it would need to be provided by a telecommunications provider?

3670             MR. MELDRUM:  No, I don't think there is any particular expertise that we have that others wouldn't be able to have.  Our core competency there would really be handling customer inquiries and running a call center, being the operator services group, which isn't a skill that is particular to phone companies.

3671             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Right.

3672             If we were to proceed with a national IP relay service that ‑‑ let's say, we contracted out, looked for, you know, set out the requirements and established this for the most economical ‑‑ in the most economical way we could, obviously, there still is ongoing costs associated or that will entail ongoing costs.  Have you considered how to recover the ongoing costs?

3673             MR. MELDRUM:  And again, we are talking about IP relay?

3674             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  We are talking IP relay, not video relay, just IP relay. 

3675             MR. MELDRUM:  Well, certainly in terms of the dollars that were flagged in our deferral account for introduction of an IP relay service, it was to cover the cost of putting the service together and some ongoing operating costs but it would have reached an end point. 

3676             In terms of future costs over and above that, I guess it takes you back to a certain degree to the MRS service and where that is going in terms of volumes, because maybe in total the volumes may not be that much greater.  I know some people think it could be substantially greater.  I am not necessarily convinced of that. 

3677             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  So potentially ‑‑ and thank you for that because it is a natural question, I believe ‑‑ I mean, as we make a transition, which is in effect a technology transition from one relay service to another, and we see the users transition from the old technology into the new IP relay technology, it is an obvious question why the existing rate for relay services could not be sufficient to fund the new service, yes?

3678             MR. MELDRUM:  Yes. 

3679             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank you.

3680             Let's move on to the issue of national video relay service. 

3681             Could you provide me your comments or perspectives as it relates to establishing a national video relay service in Canada?

3682             MR. MELDRUM:  We certainly ‑‑ as I have followed the proceeding, I came to the conclusion that it certainly is a service that Canada needs to look at and on the face of it would have great benefit to disabled Canadians.

3683             My only reservation is the cost of the service.  A lot of people don't seem to want to talk about the cost of the service but if it approaches anywhere near this $50‑100 million estimate, then I think the Commission and Canada as a country needs to understand if that is the best way to spend $50‑100 million a year. 

3684             So we certainly are quite supportive of it but we certainly want to understand the costs and I think our government would want to understand the costs as well. 

3685             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  You mentioned that there's 300 users in ‑‑

3686             MR. MELDRUM:  Right. 

3687             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Do you have any sense as to what number of those registered users ‑‑ I assume all of those registered users are text literate today if they are registered.

3688             Do you have any sense as to the size of the community of users in Saskatchewan who aren't being served today because they aren't able or aren't literate in text?

3689             MR. MELDRUM:  We did ask the Saskatchewan Deaf and Hard of Hearing Society their views and they don't have a number themselves.  They certainly believe there are a number of people that only sign and for which that service would be essential but they don't know the number. 

3690             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay, thank you.

3691             I want to move on to the issue of website accessibility.  I understand some of your deferral monies was directed to improving the accessibility of your website. 

3692             MR. MELDRUM:  Correct. 

3693             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  And where are you in that process?

3694             MR. MELDRUM:  We recently received back an audit that was done by an outside contractor and are in the process of going through the audit to understand what changes we can make within that envelope of money.

3695             It is not our expectation that there is enough money available or that it makes sense for us to make our entire website compliant today but certainly we believe that it would make sense to focus on the special needs portion of our website.

3696             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  And that is what I was going to ask.  So the money in the deferral account is being used to create a special section?

3697             MR. MELDRUM:  Well, it was ‑‑ we haven't made that determination yet.  That is our expectation in terms of the amount of money that is available given what it has cost others to make their entire website compliant with those guidelines. 

3698             But I believe looking at the amount of money available, that that is where we will end up, that we will focus on the special needs portion and whatever other sections that we could do reasonably.

3699             Did you want to add anything, Duncan?

3700             MR. KROLL:  No.

3701             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  I know that you have been here for a couple of days and so you have heard some of the parties who have represented disability communities speak about the fact that they want and believe they should have access to all aspects of the website, not a segregated section but all aspects of the website, that all information should be made available to them.

3702             So under what basis would you decide ‑‑ if it is not all and it is not just a section on special needs, how is it you are going to decide what will and won't become accessible?

3703             MR. MELDRUM:  I guess there is that balance in terms of whether it is reasonable for a company the size of SaskTel to spend upwards of a half a million dollars to make its website accessible.  It is that balancing act that I guess occurs all the time in terms of the services that we offer to our customers. 

3704             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Are you in any process where you will be doing any kind of web redesign in the near future where these costs could be incorporated front end?

3705             MR. MELDRUM:  I think it has just been recently redesigned. 

3706             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  And not compliant?

3707             MR. MELDRUM:  No. 

3708             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.

3709             I am going to move on from the website to other information.

3710             Another theme we have heard is that persons with disabilities are looking for information in alternative formats and we have heard examples such as manuals for some of the terminal equipment that is provided as an example. 

3711             What today do you provide in alternative formats?

3712             MR. MELDRUM:  That which is mandated by the Commission.  I don't believe we offer anything over and above that.  So that is the opportunity to get your bill in Braille, big print bills, some other promotional material. 

3713             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Would you have any comments as it regards the feasibility of expanding that to other types of information, customer‑related information that your company provides?

3714             MR. MELDRUM:  Again, I think for a company our size, it is a question of balance.  It might make more sense for us to deal directly with the customer involved and help them with the service or the issue that they are having.

3715             We have heard through the course of the proceeding that it sounds like some of the other phone companies have substantially automated their customer service.

3716             We are not on that page.  We continue to have live customer service reps answering the phones and dealing with our customers on a day‑to‑day basis and it could be that continuing to do that with people that are requiring more information would make more sense for a company our size. 

3717             For example, to contact and talk to the special needs manager directly to discuss the issues might make more sense than trying to separately prepare a brochure that might only have 10 or 20 people interested in receiving it.  

3718             We think in terms of the alternative format that ‑‑ in terms of bills, we think at the moment we only have 40 customers out of our province of a million people that actually get bills in alternative formats. 

3719             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  A million and growing. 

3720             MR. MELDRUM:  Yes, and growing.

3721             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Sorry, did you say 40?

3722             MR. MELDRUM:  Yes. 

3723             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.

3724             So just maybe as a matter of principle, I understand what you are saying about a company your size.  However, customers should not be limited by the size of the company in addressing their accessibility.

3725             But do you believe it would be important that information be made accessible and it is not necessarily how it is made accessible that we should be focussed on?

3726             MR. MELDRUM:  Yes, I would agree with that. 

3727             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay, thank you.

3728             I would like to talk briefly about other customer service. 

3729             You have been identified as a company ‑‑ well, identified ‑‑ I think maybe a proper term is a company that gets it regarding customer service and addressing the needs of the disability communities.

3730             I have looked ‑‑ we have a matrix that just sets out, you know, what the different companies have as it regards servicing different disability groups, you know, whether or not there is a special needs manager, whether or not they have a dedicated access to CSRs or what it might be.

3731             I have to tell you, having looked at the sort of black and white as to what SaskTel provides versus what other telephone companies provide, there is nothing special.  You know, if you just look at the form, there is nothing special.  SaskTel is not the only company to have a special needs manager.  SaskTel is not the only company that has access, you know, to their call centre.

3732             MR. MELDRUM:  Mm‑hmm.

3733             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  So what is it that you believe sets you apart as it regards customer service, as it regards serving the needs of these disability communities?

3734             And, Mr. Meldrum, if you say it is because you are a Crown corporation, we are not going to be able to do much with that.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

3735             MR. MELDRUM:  Well, I certainly would say that it is the relationship between us and our customers.  It really is.  They own us and that makes them at times very demanding and makes us very responsive.

3736             We are not in the business of disappointing our customers because we end up hearing about it in the Legislature, reading about it in the newspaper or handling complaints through the Minister's office.  So if you sort of said, why do we focus on it more, that would be, to me, the underlying theme.

3737             Now, in terms of the document that you are looking at, I don't know the extent to which it lays out all the things that we do, because looking at the things at least that are over and above what the Commission has mandated, there is a fair list of things that we understand are beyond that.

3738             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Do you have that list?

3739             MR. MELDRUM:  We do.

3740             Now, again, we didn't compare that to what the other companies do to see whether ‑‑ are we the only ones that do it?

3741             But our own initiatives that we understand would be no charge with respect to speed call, which helps the blind.

3742             We do have an initiative with the Paraplegic Association of Saskatchewan that has a special cellular offering for people that are members of that association.  That is about 750 people that are on that particular directed cellular plan.

3743             We do meet regularly with the disabled groups in Saskatchewan.  We do have the special needs manager, but as you indicate, other people do.  And we do have a large ‑‑ I would say for a company our size, a fairly large amount of special needs equipment that you can see on our website.

3744             We do do the free TTYs to registered users and their principal contact, and we do provide artificial larynxes for people that are no longer able to speak without the assistance of an artificial larynx.

3745             And we do provide ‑‑ I would say that the rates that we charge for those telephone, special needs telephone sets that we sell outright, I would say that it is a subsidized rate that we charge those for.

3746             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay, thanks for that.

3747             I will admit I am not sure that I am all that much smarter on, you know, what it is, what is the magic that sets one company apart in having ‑‑ you know, in serving a community where there is obviously a lot of discontent with others.  So if we wanted to take your formula, I am not sure, truthfully, that I understand the formula. 

3748             MR. MELDRUM:  I will get Duncan to add to it.

3749             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Sure.

3750             MR. MELDRUM:  I don't think he can come without saying something.

3751             MR. KROLL:  I don't know if we can give you a formula because it is not something that you can probably write down on a piece of paper and say here are the three or four things that you need to do to ensure that your consultations and your relationship with these folks is going to be a positive one.

3752             And we work hard at it, as John said.

3753             We have had longstanding relationships with a lot of these groups.  It is sometimes the small things that count.

3754             For instance, our relationship with the Saskatchewan Deaf and Hard of Hearing Society, we obviously meet regularly with them but they also come into our facilities and use our facilities for their board meetings and other functions.

3755             We understand that they don't have a great deal of resources and cannot afford sometimes to rent facilities, so we ask them to come in and ‑‑ or they ask us if they can come in and use our facilities and we offer them for them to do so.  So it is hard to describe, I suppose, but other than we pay close attention to it. 

3756             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thanks for that.

3757             Just, I guess, a couple more questions, one related to the cost.

3758             Would you say that your enhanced relationship with the disability communities is at significant cost or minimal cost?

3759             MR. MELDRUM:  Oh! I definitely wouldn't say significant cost.  It is worth the effort.

3760             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  It is worth the effort, you said?

3761             MR. MELDRUM:  For sure. 

3762             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Yes.  And as a business group, for you ‑‑ I mean we have all seen the statistics as to how the disabilities are growing in Canada as we all age ‑‑ have you looked at it from a business perspective to say what is the value of this group or the groups of disability communities?

3763             MR. MELDRUM:  I wouldn't say that it is a major thrust on the Corporation's part but certainly seniors make up a fairly high proportion of Saskatchewan residents, so they are a market that we are attuned to.

3764             But again, we are challenged by the size of the company.  I know there has been a lot of discussion about companies, wireless service providers providing terminals that are specific to the disabled community.

3765             We did look at bringing one in and the minimum order for us was 10,000.  We wouldn't be able to move 10,000 cell terminals in Saskatchewan. Our market, again, is just too small.

3766             So where we would like to focus, again, you run into some of the economic realities really quickly.

3767             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  I am going to come back to terminals in a minute, but I would like to finish off on the issue of customer service and consultation.

3768             You were clear in your opening remarks that you believe consultation should be purpose driven, and it should be regional.

3769             I would like to get your views, however, on the proposal put forward by the CNIB that there be an institute established to deal with issues related to disabilities, and that the members would be not just the disability communities and the industry, but also that there needs to be a role for the CRTC in making those consultations effective.

3770             Do you think there needs to be a role for the CRTC in ensuring effective consultation?

3771             MR. MELDRUM:  In terms of national issues and the national industry, I certainly would see the CRTC taking a role in that.

3772             As you have seen from our comments, we are not really thrilled about being mandated to participate in all of the discussions.  Our experience has been that national consultations, from a cost/benefits analysis ‑‑ typically, the cost goes up and the results go down, as opposed to, when we do it regionally, the costs are low and the results are high, in terms of getting somewhere.

3773             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank you.

3774             I want to move to the issue of terminal equipment, and you gave an example here about bringing in something and the costs of bringing in a product to serve the disability community ‑‑ cost versus demand.

3775             I hear that, and I have also seen in your remarks your comments as they relate to how the manufacturers ‑‑ really, we don't have control.  SaskTel is not large enough.  Canada is not large enough, necessarily, to influence the design.

3776             Let me ask you about equipment that is available nationally, or, more importantly, internationally, that has been designed for the disability community.

3777             For example, terminal equipment that meets their needs, or adaptive devices.

3778             What happens when one of your customers procures one of these devices outside your jurisdiction?  Do you support it?

3779             MR. MELDRUM:  These would be wireless terminals?

3780             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Let's talk wireless.

3781             MR. MELDRUM:  We asked that question this week, and we would work with a customer to try to get it to work on our network.

3782             But I think you have heard this week that there are a lot of issues as to whether or not a particular device will work.

3783             First of all, it has to be CDMA, in our case, because we are not a GSM provider, so the total number of terminals that are available is a reduced number to start with.

3784             And, then, of course, it has to work on the right frequencies, and we have to be able to adapt it to work on our system.

3785             But we would try to work with a customer, if they came forward with a device that they had sourced elsewhere, to see if we could get it connected to our network.

3786             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  When you say that you would try, I assume that there may have been issues in the past where customers have wanted an accessible wireless handset.

3787             Has that happened in the past?

3788             MR. MELDRUM:  A set that they have sourced elsewhere and then brought to us?

3789             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Sourced elsewhere.

3790             As you noted, the economies don't allow you to provide it yourself, so if they are going outside your jurisdiction to obtain or acquire that handset ‑‑

3791             Has that never happened?

3792             MR. MELDRUM:  Not that I am aware of.

3793             We can make further inquiries to see if ‑‑

3794             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  It's not important that you undertake to provide that information.  I think it is more important to know what you will do going forward, and on a going forward basis you said that you would support it.

3795             MR. MELDRUM:  We would attempt to get it to be able to connect to our network, yes.

3796             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  And, once connected, I guess the issue is ongoing support.

3797             I am not asking you to support a handset any more than you would support any other person's wireless handset if it's an equipment issue, but obviously there are interworkings between a handset and the network that says, "If there is a problem, we are not going to tell them, `It's not our handset,' and ‑‑ "

3798             MR. MELDRUM:  With those limitations we would support it, but there are incredible limitations, as even I, as a consumer, discover when a handset has fallen into a swimming pool.  They are not supported.

3799             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.  Thank you.

3800             I want to move to the issue of your broadcast distribution undertaking.  The first issue relates to closed captioning.  In this proceeding there has been a lot of discussion about the quality of closed captioning.  The CAB has put forward the position that there is a role, and there is a definite role to play for BDUs, as it relates to monitoring and responding to issues related to the quality of closed captioning.

3801             Do you have any comments related to that?

3802             MR. KROLL:  As you know, our requirement is to pass through closed captioning that is available, and we do so.

3803             As you saw from the attachment that we provided to you, when we do have issues regarding closed captioning from our end, we try to address them as quickly as possible.

3804             We have an issue on the closed captioning side with our high-definition programming, for instance, and we are working with our vendor to accommodate or adjust those issues.

3805             If you are asking if we are constantly or formally monitoring the closed captioning that is on our system, I suppose that there is not a formal process, but certainly we periodically make sure that the quality is there, and that is how we are able to address some of the issues that arise.

3806             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Is there any end‑to‑end process?

3807             If a customer has an issue with the closed captioning, it could be caused ‑‑

3808             There is obviously a chain, be it the BDU, the SRDU, the programmer ‑‑ there are many in the chain that get to the end, and it can fall apart anywhere in that chain.

3809             Is there any process for ongoing ‑‑ to work together with the chain of suppliers?

3810             MR. KROLL:  I think that when there are issues our technical people would be in contact with the various parties to see where the issue is, who may be responsible, and what can be done about it.

3811             I think that is probably quite common.

3812             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  My last issue relates to described video.

3813             Today, as I understand, you provide described video in an open format for your customers.

3814             MR. KROLL:  We provide it through the duplicate channel method, yes.

3815             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  And you will be moving to an embedded basis going forward.

3816             Is that right?

3817             Is that your plan?

3818             MR. KROLL:  That is what we would like to do longer term, yes.

3819             The duplicate channel method, as you know, was an interim measure, given the state of our IPTV technology at the time, and we are updating and modifying our IPTV network as we speak, over the next year or so, and that will allow us to go to a single stream.

3820             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  When you say that it will allow you to go to that, the benefits for you are reduced capacity requirements?

3821             MR. KROLL:  Yes.  Some costs, yes.

3822             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Costs.

3823             Would it be possible, to better understand what costs we are speaking of ‑‑

3824             What are the costs of carrying it open source versus embedded?

3825             MR. KROLL:  Commissioner, as you know, I am not a technical person, so I think that I would have to get back to you with that.  I don't have that with me.

3826             MR. MELDRUM:  We did do some work in preparation for the proceeding, and the costs aren't substantive when you are talking a few channels.

3827             Actually, as a company, we would be prepared to continue in the future to have the four Canadian channels as separate described video channels.

3828             The costs are reasonable enough that, in addition to having it embedded in the regular channel, we would be prepared to break it out.

3829             Now, we wouldn't want to do that with all of the channels that we carry, because, essentially, you would be doubling your equipment costs, and perhaps, then, as you get into that doubling, there are some scale issues that would start to affect some of your underlying equipment.

3830             In other words, instead of the equipment necessary for 120 channels, you would have the equipment necessary for 240 channels.

3831             We wouldn't want to get to that point, but certainly to have the four dedicated Canadian channels with separate described video, we believe that would be a reasonable thing for us to do for our customers.

3832             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank you.

3833             Today you provide open source for more than the four.  You provide it, as well, for the specialties that have described video.

3834             MR. KROLL:  Yes.

3835             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Would you propose to leave them open source, as well?

3836             What is in the system today ‑‑ I guess that is what I would say.  For the described video that is in the system today, would you be prepared to leave that all open source?

3837             MR. MELDRUM:  I think we would have to understand the full implications of that, as to whether there is a point at which you would get these lumpy costs that arise.

3838             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  I am not asking you to do any more than you are doing today, just to be clear.

3839             MR. MELDRUM:  But, of course, the number of channels that we offer will continue to expand, so the fact that we can do those extra ones today doesn't necessarily mean that it would be the same situation that we would encounter two years out or four years out.

3840             I think we would want to understand it more ourselves.

3841             As Duncan says, neither of us is technical, and we wouldn't want to make a commitment that the engineers would ultimately come back and ask us if we had lost our minds.

3842             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.  That's fair.  You can undertake to provide that answer.

3843             Or, in your reply, I think, would probably be efficient, as well.

3844             MR. MELDRUM:  Sure, we will address it in our reply.

3845             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  I would like to understand the embedded format that you are proposing to move to.

3846             Yesterday, TELUS told us that the process for a person who is blind to access described video is a six‑step process.

3847             Do you know what process will be involved for consumers when you move from the open format to the embedded?

3848             MR. KROLL:  I'm sorry, I wouldn't know that, although I would hazard to guess that it could be similar to the TELUS situation.

3849             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  I would hazard a similar guess, actually, that it would be similar to TELUS, and that it would be a six‑step process.

3850             I am going to leave you with the same question I asked them.  Are you working with your manufacturers to develop a simplified process?

3851             MR. MELDRUM:  That is a bit of a challenge, because most of the new middleware folks that we are looking at are from the States, and, actually, described video is something that they are not all that familiar with.  It's not mandated in the United States.

3852             We are just hopeful that their middleware will support it.

3853             Our actual Request for Proposals did not address the issue of access itself ‑‑ how many clicks, so to speak.

3854             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.  I will let that go, but I think it's hard to imagine going from open format today to six clicks to get somewhere tomorrow.

3855             Do you know what I mean?

3856             That's the difference between what is being offered and what you are moving toward.

3857             MR. MELDRUM:  Certainly, we haven't yet acquired our middleware, and we will keep this in mind as we work with the potential vendors to understand what their system is capable of.

3858             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  You are saying that you don't have any potential influence in setting out requirements for that middleware, where you could look at reducing ‑‑ or making that content more accessible, simplifying it for the end users.

3859             MR. MELDRUM:  I think it will be a challenge.

3860             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.  The last thing I want to talk about is the electronic programming guide.

3861             I understand that today there is a visual indicator for described video programming.

3862             Is that correct?

3863             MR. KROLL:  We do a couple of things.  We voiceprint, and all of our described programming services are grouped together in the sequence of channels.  In our case, they are channels 555 through 567 or 568, I believe.

3864             Those described video channels also have an identifier, if you will, on the interactive guide.

3865             For instance, CTV would be "CTV/DV".  That would come up on the guide.

3866             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  But there is no indicator in your electronic guide itself to indicate that a program is described.

3867             MR. KROLL:  No.

3868             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Is that something that you could see making available, assuming that broadcasters provided you the information that the program is described?

3869             Because I have heard some comments here that BDUs aren't always aware that described video is even being provided.

3870             If you were provided with that information, could it be easily added to your electronic program guide?

3871             MR. KROLL:  I think we would explore that, yes.

3872             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  What about any opportunities for audio announcement, or other means of simplifying access for persons who are blind?

3873             MR. KROLL:  I believe, as John mentioned, in terms of discussions with middleware vendors, that is a functionality that we have flagged.

3874             Now, I am not exactly sure what is out there, as John indicated, but certainly it is something that we have pointed out.

3875             MR. MELDRUM:  And the people responsible for our service are going to look to see if there is something they can do on an interim basis.

3876             We hadn't really looked at it before we heard it discussed at the proceeding this week.

3877             So we will have a look to see if there is something we can do today.

3878             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Will you have a look and be able to provide us some information on whether that is possible by the time reply comments are due?

3879             MR. MELDRUM:  We will try.

3880             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.  It is interesting that the IPTV application is a bit unique in its integration with internet websites, and so on, so I just wondered, with that technology, if there also might be other ways of information related to what is or is not ‑‑ you know, what is described video, what is accessible programming available for those people.

3881             You know, a separate website that could flash up or something.

3882             It seems to me that the technology would provide some opportunities.

3883             MR. MELDRUM:  For sure it would.  When you think of how it actually works, the opportunity to have a section right on your television that was devoted to special needs and/or focused on this, yes.

3884             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Right.  If any of those opportunities are available, it would be very interesting to hear about them, as well.

3885             MR. MELDRUM:  Certainly.

3886             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Those are my questions.  Thank you.

3887             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Commissioner Molnar.

3888             I think that some of us have some questions, as well.  I am going to start.

3889             I want to go back to something you said a few minutes ago with regard to middleware being done in the United States, and, as a result, your manufacturers or suppliers may not have the expertise on described video, because it's not something that is done in the United States today.

3890             I don't know who you are using, but described video was a standard that was being used several years ago in the United States.  It may have had a bit of a hiatus, but I still believe that described video is being offered by the Public Broadcasting System, PBS, and some other channels, as well.

3891             So I cannot believe that, unless you have gone with some relatively new, unknown middleware supplier, they haven't got the expertise to know what is required in described video, nor what has been the standard in the U.S. in the past.

3892             It leaves me to believe that the reason it is not being incorporated is because it wasn't part of the RFP process and identified as a need right upfront.

3893             Is that true?

3894             MR. MELDRUM:  No, our RFP definitely is asking for described video.

3895             THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is.

3896             MR. MELDRUM:  In terms of your views, I can only report what I have been advised, that some of the middleware providers were surprised about described video and didn't really know that much about it.

3897             Certainly, our current middleware provider is Canadian, and knows all about it, and has worked with us to try to make it work as best we can.

3898             THE CHAIRPERSON:  When you look at your response to your RFP, how much weight do you put on the fact that one supplier may not have the expertise to do something that is for a segment of the population, as opposed to costs or other technical parameters?

3899             MR. MELDRUM:  If they couldn't support the Commission's requirements, then we wouldn't go with them.

3900             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I want to come back to MRS, and you are going to have to help me here.  My math may be wrong, so I am going to take you through a mathematical exercise.

3901             Do you have your tariff with you for MRS, or is there a tariff today?

3902             I should ask the first question.

3903             Do you have a tariff for MRS?

3904             MR. MELDRUM:  I don't believe there is a tariff, no.

3905             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Commissioner Molnar mentioned, I think, that the rate was 25 cents.  My records say that it's 26.  It doesn't matter.

3906             I want to take you through a mathematical exercise, and tell me if I am correct or not.

3907             There are roughly a million people in Saskatchewan.  The average number of people per family is somewhere between 3.5 and 4.  So you have about a quarter of a million homes in Saskatchewan.

3908             If I take that number and multiply it by 25 cents per MRS customer, times 12 months, my math comes up with, roughly, three-quarters of a million dollars of revenue generated by the cost recovery for MRS services from the residential side.

3909             Business was also mandated to subscribe, pay for, and contribute to MRS, so I just doubled it and got $1.5 million.

3910             It may be less than that.  Competition may have caused you to lose some market share ‑‑ and I don't want to get into proprietary numbers.

3911             So I am at $1.5 million, give or take a bit.

3912             You were saying that there are 300 registered users for MRS services ‑‑ TTI services ‑‑ I believe.  So if I divided 300 by $1.5 million, I would get $5,000 per person utilizing MRS as what you would be recovering through the passthrough charges of what was approved by the CRTC, in whatever year it was approved.

3913             That's my math.

3914             Does the math sound logically correct, give or take the number of customers?

3915             MR. MELDRUM:  The back‑of‑the‑envelope math sounds reasonable, yes.

3916             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you are recovering, roughly, $5,000 per person utilizing this technology, per year, and I guess the question is, how much cost are you actually incurring to serve 300 people with TTI?

3917             I guess I would put it to you that there may be a contribution there that may be useful in developing additional services through this recovery mechanism, because my math tells me that the $5,000 per person using TTI per month is quite a high amount of cost to have to recover.  In this case there is a major contribution.

3918             MR. MELDRUM:  That possibility exists, yes.

3919             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

3920             You said you incorporated the rate into the monthly service fee.  So there's not an individual line item on the customers' bill for MRS services?

3921             MR. MELDRUM:  There is no individual line item, no.

3922             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

3923             MR. MELDRUM:  It's in the $22 a month.

3924             THE CHAIRPERSON:  This is the antithesis of system access fees, where you have put it in as opposed to leaving it out.

3925             Why did you do that?

3926             MR. MELDRUM:  Why?

3927             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Because at one time it was a tariffed item, I mean you were fully regulated, and, as far as I know, this service is still a regulated service and ‑‑

3928             MR. MELDRUM:  Well, there was a period of time during which we weren't formally regulated at all.  I know for phone companies that's Nirvana and probably not for regulators, but there was a period of time and that might have been the period of time at which we introduced MRS.

3929             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Because again, I mean, my math would tell me if you incorporate it into the rate and just bundled it in, then, as you increase your telephony rates by inflation or whatever, 2 percent, 3 percent, you are bumping that number up, as well.

3930             And again, if it was a tariffed item by the CRTC, embedding it and then bumping it up by the cost of inflation may not be something that we contemplated or approved either.

3931             So I just leave that thought with you and maybe you can look into the history behind the rate, and how it became bundled into the services, and maybe file something with us at an appropriate time explaining it.

3932             MR. MELDRUM:  We can certainly undertake to see what we can find in our records.

3933             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Great.

3934             MR. MELDRUM:  Unfortunately, I have been around forever and I can't recall the specifics as to how it was that occurred.

3935             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  Neither do I, for that matter, but ‑‑

3936             MR. MELDRUM:  I think it probably was during that unregulated era.

3937             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Was there anything else you did during that unregulated era that you want to share with us?

‑‑- Laughter / Rires

3938             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

3939             MR. MELDRUM:  I'm sure they are all good.

3940             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm sure they are.

3941             Someone mentioned the other day -- and we keep using the term Jitterbug -- I think TELUS said they had an alternative phone to Jitterbug, as well.  And I think I heard you say that the order levels, in order to bring in product, was a minimum of 10,000 units, and therefore it didn't support the business proposition.

3942             I guess I question to the extent that you have 300 TTY customers and you were able to equip them with product and you didn't buy 10,000, I would believe that one could get smaller numbers if they wanted to.  And if they couldn't, I would tend to think you can still buy them off the shelf if you had to subsidize them, which is maybe what you are doing on TTY, I don't know.

3943             MR. MELDRUM:  Well, certainly we have a number of wireline terminals that we are able to source quite easily and I think it's probably more the nature of the cellular terminal industry.

3944             I had occasion to meet with a manufacturer is Southeast Asia within the last year, and it's a country that's renown for their politeness, and when we met with them they essentially asked us why we were there and told us that we were so small that they couldn't waste their time to talk to us, and we carried a number of lines of their phone.

3945             So I had the firsthand opportunity to hear from a large international manufacturer that they didn't want to talk to us.

3946             THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, and I have no doubt that it's difficult to deal with large manufacturers who have production runs that are in the tens of thousands, if not even more than that, but that doesn't mean you can't get them through a distributor and perhaps pay a higher margin, a higher price for it.  But I'm sure people are bringing them into the United States, for example.

3947             And I guess I heard TELUS say that they have an alternative product to this Jitterbug product.  Why you couldn't call them up and say, Can you sell us a hundred of these things?, at whatever price they will pass it through to you.  To me it would be a logical thing to do if there's a need for it or a demand for it by your citizens, your customers.

3948             MR. MELDRUM:  And again, from what I understand, a wireline terminal just sort of works on the end of the line and with a cellular terminal it has to integrate with your network and work with your network and be supported and meet your requirements and be locked onto your network, and all those various things.  So, again, it's hard to do small batches.

3949             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You are all CDMA.  If TELUS can do it, you can do it.  You are all roaming on TELUS network so your products are perfectly interchangeable across the CDMA platform.

3950             MR. MELDRUM:  If they would let us have a look at it, we would.

3951             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Well, it's something that you might want to think about, I guess.

3952             You mention in your submission that one alternative for people who have got issues is to deal with the Commissioner of Complaints that was set up about a year ago.

3953             Do you know if there's been any complaints by the disability community to the commissioner for telecommunications complaints, whatever they are called.  CCTS, I think it's called.

3954             MR. MELDRUM:  Concerning SaskTel?

3955             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

3956             MR. MELDRUM:  No.  There have been four complaint since it's set up and I guess I can't address it without saying that comes out to $15,000 a complaint for us for the first year.

3957             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  It's on the record, Mr. Meldrum.

3958             Value of service pricing:  some of the parties came before us saying they buy product, because you sell them off the shelf and so they have got to take what you sell them, and some of the services, whether you are disabled through hard of hearing or visibility impaired, the services are there and yet they pull full price for the service even though the utilization may be lower.  I know you mentioned earlier that there is some discretion where you actually reduce the price of some services, as well.

3959             Have you thought about, particularly on the wireless side, looking at whether, if the value of the product to people with disabilities is lower simply because they can't utilize some of those services, rather than trying to get them a product which we know is not available that you would find some way of creating a discount for their utilization?

3960             MR. MELDRUM:  Our pay‑per‑use service actually doesn't require you to spend any money at all on voice.  You can actually get our pay‑per‑use service, and then subscribe to a text messaging plan, and either pay per use on text messaging or pay $10 month...or I guess it's $13 a month now, to get unlimited text messaging.

3961             So essentially we do have a plan that would be text only or the opportunity to put a plan together that would give you that.

3962             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

3963             Those are all my questions, Mr. Meldrum.

3964             Commissioner Lamarre?  No?  Yes.

3965             Commissioner Lamarre.

3966             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Merci, monsieur le président.

3967             In your presentation you have mentioned that you do not intend to offer the IP relay service in French because there's no demand for the service in French.

3968             How did you come to that conclusion that there was no demand?

3969             MR. MELDRUM:  None of the 300 registered TTY users have indicated a need for French.

3970             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Aren't you going to plan for the possibility that there may be new people coming to Saskatchewan and that there could be a demand in the future for it?

3971             MR. MELDRUM:  Well, we certainly would look at it if one of the registered users came forward and said that they could only communicate in French.  We would certainly try and deal with that.

3972             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Okay, but that's from the end of the users.  Now, people that live in Saskatchewan surely don't communicate only with people in Saskatchewan.  Some of them probably communicate with people outside of Saskatchewan.

3973             How would one of your...actually, I hesitate between using the word "customers" or "citizens" given that you have mentioned that your customers own you and that you are a Crown corporation, but I think it's going to be easier if I say "customers".

3974             If one of your customers wants to communicate with somebody who only speaks French at the other end, how would they do that?

3975             MR. MELDRUM:  Well, I think we would see if any of the operators on duty were bilingual and get them to handle the call.

3976             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Okay.

3977             MR. MELDRUM:  We would have some bilingual operators.

3978             Unfortunately, though, bilingualism in Saskatchewan is fairly limited.  We just don't get an opportunity to use our French, so we learn French and then lose it, unfortunately.  But if there were bilingual operators on duty, then they would handle that particular call.

3979             I'm sure today we must get calls from some customers that end up in our operator services that are French‑only.

3980             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  And couldn't you extend that to the IP relay service, then?

3981             MR. MELDRUM:  The extent to which we are able to handle it today and the extent to which those calls arise in the future, yes.  But in terms of actually setting ourselves up to ensure that we would be able to provide bilingual IP relay service, we just haven't had a need yet to undertake that.

3982             And again, it's a bit of a struggle for a call centre the size of which we operate to be able to meet all the needs of everybody at all hours.

3983             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Have you considered the possibility of contracting it out in that case?

3984             MR. MELDRUM:  And that certainly is one of the things we are looking at for IP relay is to contract it out.  And again, this would be another consideration as to why a national service would make more sense:  to be able to provide a higher level of service to Saskatchewan customers who wanted to communicate in French.

3985             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  What about VRS?  Because for VRS you have it in your presentation, and, actually, in your undertaking at the end of your presentation, that you do agree that it should be set up as a national service.  And then you mention that you are only going to offer VRS in English.

3986             So are you saying that, if there is a national VRS service, then in Saskatchewan it should be only in English?

3987             MR. MELDRUM:  No, I don't think we did say that, that we would only offer it in English, VRS.

3988             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  You did not say ‑‑

3989             MR. MELDRUM:  No.

3990             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  ‑‑ that VRS would be offered only in English?

3991             MR. MELDRUM:  I think the question that I was answering was in relation to IP relay.

3992             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Oh, okay.  So VRS, you will also offer in French?

3993             MR. MELDRUM:  Well, again, our view is that it should be a national service, and we certainly would support that it should be an English and French service, yes.

3994             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  If it doesn't become a national service, if it becomes regional services, will you be offering it in French, as well?

3995             MR. MELDRUM:  Oh, I would think we would really struggle with that ‑‑

3996             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Why would you struggle with that?

3997             MR. MELDRUM:  ‑‑ in terms of being able to deliver it.

3998             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Why?

3999             MR. MELDRUM:  Well, I guess we could contract to somebody that would have that expertise, because we certainly wouldn't.

4000             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Okay, so you ‑‑

4001             MR. MELDRUM:  Yes, so we would contract, and I guess we would certainly look to see if that was available and possible, and try and understand the costs of obtaining that.  But if it was a call centre that offered both English and French, then I would certainly think it would come with the service that we would contract.

4002             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  So, basically, correct me if I'm wrong, what I understand you to say is that you have not made any specific cost analysis as to what it would amount to to offer IP relay service or VRS regional service in French, as well as in English, once you implement it.

4003             MR. MELDRUM:  Right, we wouldn't have any costs at all.  We are not far enough along on our IP relay service to know the additional costs ‑‑

4004             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Okay.

4005             MR. MELDRUM:  ‑‑ and whether there even are any additional costs if we are contracting it out.  And in terms of video relay, we wouldn't be anywhere along that continuum of understanding of costs.

4006             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Will you make those comparative costs when you get there?

4007             MR. MELDRUM:  I would think so.

4008             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Can you commit to it?  I'm just asking you if you will make the cost analysis to see what it would cost to offer it in both French and English, either in‑house or contracting out.

4009             MR. MELDRUM:  Yes, we would certainly commit to do that.

4010             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Okay, thank you.

4011             Now, I do take Mr. Kroll's point that he's not a technical person, but I still have technical questions anyway.  And it's regarding, really, your IP technology.

4012             Now, currently, your infrastructure for IPTV, does it rely on cable or on fibre?

4013             MR. MELDRUM:  I will maybe try that.

4014             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Yes.

4015             MR. MELDRUM:  It's fibre to within 900 metres of the homes or less ‑‑

4016             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Okay.

4017             MR. MELDRUM:  ‑‑ and then from there it's copper‑delivered.

4018             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  And then it's copper, okay.

4019             MR. MELDRUM:  Yes.

4020             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  With regards to your electronic program guide, we were under the impression that at one point SaskTel had asked for a quote to get a voice sensitizer device to connect to that program guide so that the program could be heard.

4021             Am I wrong?  Did I...?

4022             MR. KROLL:  I'm sorry, Commissioner, I'm not sure what you are referring to.

4023             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Well, currently, the guide is only visual ‑‑

4024             MR. KROLL:  That's right.

4025             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  ‑‑ and you have mentioned in the notes that I have from this morning that you are not aware of any EPG or IPG which would provide,

"...audio cues accompanying the graphic information at this time.  Should one appear, SaskTel will assess the feasibility of incorporating audio cues to its IPG."  (As read)

4026             Some of our technical staff was under the impression that you have already started looking into that.

4027             MR. KROLL:  As I indicated earlier, it was one of the functionalities that we flag in the RFP that we have put out the middleware vendors, but we are certainly not at the point where we have been able to determine whether that's even possible.

4028             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Okay.  Did you get the reply for that RFP?

4029             MR. KROLL:  My understanding is that the responses have come in and that they will begin reviewing them shortly.

4030             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Okay.  Can you keep us informed whether or not your supplier was able to provide you with a positive answer or not?

4031             MR. KROLL:  Yes, we will do that.

4032             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Thank you.

4033             Those are all my questions, thank you.

4034             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Commissioner Lamarre.

4035             We will start from the far east coast. Have you got any questions, Commissioner Duncan?  One?

4036             Go ahead.

4037             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  I have just a simple question, I think.

4038             I would like to understand the open versus embedded.  If I'm a customer of SaskTel's, how do I access the open signal now?  Is it just a single button?

4039             MR. KROLL:  Yes, you would get your remote, you would select "Guide", and then you would have to scroll to the described video programming channels.

4040             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  So then, as compared to the six steps, still a few steps, is that the idea?

4041             MR. KROLL:  A few steps, yes.

4042             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Half as many?

4043             MR. KROLL:  And as I said earlier, we have tried to make it more user friendly by grouping the channels together.

4044             And, of course, as TELUS mentioned yesterday, too, we do have, as part of the menu option, a favourites option, as well, where they could customize the guide to be tailored to described video or closed captioning.

4045             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Do you have staff that would go to a customer's home and help them set that up?  I'm just imagining it would be complicated initially to set up.  Not any moreso there than anywhere else, but....

4046             MR. KROLL:  I think we give as much support as we can.  When the installer goes into the home to install the equipment, they would probably lend some assistance if they could, and certainly there are avenues available for the customer to call back if they were having troubles.

4047             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  So I'm taking that most of it would be done by phoning into the office, then?

4048             MR. KROLL:  I would think so.

4049             MR. MELDRUM:  That would be our first attempt: to try and support it over the phone.

4050             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Okay.  Thank you very much.  That's good.

4051             Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

4052             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Commissioner Duncan.

4053             Commissioner Denton, any questions?

4054             COMMISSIONER DENTON:  No questions.

4055             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

4056             Over to the far west coast, Commissioner Simpson.

4057             COMMISSIONER SIMPSON:  The left coast.  Thank you very much.

‑‑- Laughter / Rires

4058             COMMISSIONER SIMPSON:  Good morning, gentlemen.

4059             I would like to be very brief, first of all, but just deal with a few issues from your presentation that I would like to take not exception but challenge you on with respect to accessibility in general.

4060             While I'm extremely cognisant of the issues that you have brought out with respect to the scale of your business and how that plays with respect to the supplier community globally, you know, it's noted and well received that is a reality.  But still on points 16 and 17, on page 2 of your presentation, you had indicated that it seemed to be of your belief that accessibility issues largely rested with technological issues and you had said:

"However, most of the issues regarding accessibility of communication services generally deal with terminal equipment and it's commonly agreed that accessibility is best accomplished in the initial design and development of products and services."  (As read)

4061             Where I'm going with this is I would like to have a very brief discussion about the range of disability.

4062             I think, to a certain extent, from what I have seen from service providers, they take a rather compartmentalized view to the issue of disability, that you are either disabled or you are not, and if you are able‑bodied you fit into one category of service provision, including products and services, and if you fall into the disabled category.  It's a hard wall that divides the two and that puts you in another framework of thinking, in terms of what you can and can't do given the size of your organization.

4063             But one of the things that has impacted me in the preparation for these hearings was the very slippery slope we seem to be on, as an aging population, where individuals of my age, as the elder, I think, at this table, are finding ourselves going more and more from what I would call totally abled to somewhat disabled.

4064             And the degree of difficulty that I ran into was in my years in the advertising business, finding 25‑year‑old designers designing business cards in 6 point type that I could read when I was their age and I can't read today.

4065             I would like to ask you if you believe that there's some movability in your position that there is nothing you can do for individuals with disabilities of varying types with respect to the other soft services, such as the manner in which you engage your customers in a non‑technical area, such as the provisioning of your billing services, your website services and so on.

4066             I'm trying to divide your perspective on hard, technical issues that you can't control from those that you can, and I would like you to discourse a bit as to whether you actually have some elasticity in your position, in terms of the stuff that you can control that's within your financial means.

4067             MR. MELDRUM:  Well, certainly the phones that we do carry and that we do offer for sale on the wireline side are not simply designed and aimed at those that are completely disabled, they are to get at people who are hard of hearing.  And, of course, certainly as I'm discovering as well as I get older, the hearing starts to slip.

4068             So we do, through our special needs manager and the special needs products and services, attempt to address that broader description of the disabled in Canada that I think makes up the 15 percent that is disabled.

4069             I don't know if that answers ‑‑

4070             COMMISSIONER SIMPSON:  Well, I guess I was reacting somewhat to what I felt was a little bit of a defeatist attitude towards your ability to address the issues before this hearing.  So I'm hearing you say that you do have sensitivity and are making efforts in the areas you can make.

4071             MR. MELDRUM:  We do have a number of products and services that we provide.  Perhaps the frustration is really more on the wireless side than on the wireline side.

4072             And again, our special needs manager will actually try and help special needs people to source products that we don't have, again on the wireline side being much easier than making inroads on the wireless side, unfortunately.

4073             COMMISSIONER SIMPSON:  Is there, for providers such as yourself, which I'm sure globally there are many that are in your scale ‑‑ are you aware of any working groups or organizations of telecom providers that have workgroups that deal specifically with the mandate of bringing disability requirements to the equipment manufacturers?

4074             MR. MELDRUM:  No, we are not aware of any.

4075             I should mention we do have some products that are fairly new that are actually directed I think to that senior category to a certain degree.  Actually the Office of Disabilities of the Province of Saskatchewan has asked us to use that smaller amount of our deferral account to actually focus on seeing whether we can adapt these products to aid cognitively disabled individuals to be able to live more independently.

4076             Of those two products, one is a medical alert service that we offer through our security company, SecureTech Monitoring Solutions.  It is a 100 per cent owned entity.

4077             That provides sort of a work alone medical alert thing that in the case of seniors could be quite helpful and aid them with independent living.

4078             And then there is a product called LifeStat, that we actually have a joint venture with Alcatel, that provides remote monitoring for serious illnesses.  Two that are today monitored remotely would be blood pressure and blood sugar levels, which of course diabetes leads to so many other disabilities.

4079             So we are focused in that marketplace trying to see what we can develop, and certainly we would be addressing much more than Saskatchewan to the extent that we are successful with those particular products and services.

4080             COMMISSIONER SIMPSON:  Thank you.

4081             I just would like to end with a statement of sharing what we are learning, because it goes both ways.  With respect to the business model of any service provider, again we are seeing at this end that scale of aging population and the percentage of moving into what could be considered some form of disability.  As an individual reaches 75 years of age, we are being told that between 65 and 75 per cent of the population of that age group will be considered as having some form of disability.

4082             I bring this up to all of the providers, that it perhaps is time to start thinking about that with respect to disability becoming a much broader category that they have to put into their focus.

4083             Thank you.

4084             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Commissioner Simpson.

4085             I believe Commissioner Molnar has a couple of follow‑up questions.

4086             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Yes, thank you.  Just a couple of things.

4087             First of all, I would like to go back to the whole issue of national IPRS service and the natural transition that exists with existing message relay service.

4088             If we were to implement a national IPRS, would it make sense that message relay service also be provided on a national basis and potentially by that same service provider?

4089             MR. MELDRUM:  I think intuitively I think it would make sense.  I think you would want to understand the specifics, but intuitively I think it would make sense.

4090             Get the economies of scale that would be available to offer it in French and English on a national basis.

4091             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Right.  So would your company have any concerns if we move to a national message relay service?

4092             MR. MELDRUM:  No, I don't think we would have any concerns.

4093             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.

4094             I need to move back to the issue of website compatibility.

4095             You mentioned that the deferral account funds were being used specifically to create a special needs section of your website.

4096             Could you tell me how much funds was approved for that purpose?

4097             MR. MELDRUM:  Just to be clear, we haven't decided that we would only do special needs.  It's just that we think that the amount of money available may only permit us to do special needs.  We are still trying to understand the audit.

4098             And the extent to which there are other relatively easy things to do that would provide benefits in terms of the accessibility of our website, we would certainly do that for sure.

4099             It's $103,000 set aside out of our deferral account.

4100             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  If the Commission were to make a determination that the full website should be accessible, would you undertake to provide us with an estimate of what the costs would be to expand accessibility to incorporate all the information available on your website?

4101             MR. MELDRUM:  We would have to do an estimate because we wouldn't know for sure, but I think we would have an idea.

4102             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.  If you could provide that and any other information you would have related to requirements, benefits, challenges or so on, you know, in expanding the requirement to be all information.

4103             I would also be interested in that same undertaking, if you could undertake to provide this with the other information we spoke about, if you could look at it relative to maybe a requirement to make it accessible in the near term, let's say the next sort of two to three years, versus the requirement if it was part of your next Web redesign and how the costs would be different if it was imposed upon the website you have today versus incorporated into the next version or the next redesign.

4104             MR. MELDRUM:  We will see what we can do.

4105             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank you.

4106             I didn't provide a date related to undertakings.  The end of next week, is that reasonable?

4107             MR. MELDRUM:  With some of them it would be reasonable.  That last one I would be very surprised if we could provide anything meaningful within a week.

4108             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Maybe I will just check with our legal counsel.

4109             In two weeks is that what ‑‑ two weeks?  I guess I shouldn't have said the end of next week.

4110             In two weeks if you can provide us the best information you have available.

4111             MS LEHOUX:  And we will be laying all the undertakings and tomorrow we will provide the list.

4112             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.

4113             MR. MELDRUM:  Great.

4114             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank you.

4115             MR. MELDRUM:  It seems to be a long list.

4116             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Does legal have any legal questions at all?  I see heads shaking no.

4117             Thank you very much, Mr. Meldrum, Mr. Kroll, for appearing before us.

4118             We will take a five‑minute break for a change of speakers and parties and we will reconvene in five to seven minutes.

4119             Thank you.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1044 / Suspension à 1044

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1056 / Reprise à 1056

4120             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.

4121             THE SECRETARY:  Please be seated.  Veuillez prendre vos places, s'il vous plaît.

4122             Nous allons maintenant procéder avec le Regroupement des aveugles et amblyopes du Québec.

4123             Mais avant, je vais faire une annonce qu'il y a possibilité que nous arrêtions entre 11 h 15 et 11 h 30 pour procéder avec le participant qui vient en vidéoconférence, puis si nous n'avons pas terminé, nous allons revenir avec votre présentation.

4124             I would just like to announce that we will probably be stopping between 11:15 and 11:30 for our videoconference and we will continue with the presentation by le Regroupement des aveugles et amblyopes du Québec.

4125             Vous pouvez maintenant procéder avec votre présentation de 15 minutes.

PRÉSENTATION / PRESENTATION

4126             M. DUBOIS : Alors, bonjour.  Je vais vous présenter ma collègue Florence Pardo.  Elle est directrice générale du Regroupement des aveugles et amblyopes du Québec.  Je suis André Dubois, président de ce regroupement.

4127             Alors, nous vous remercions, nous remercions le Conseil de nous avoir invités aujourd'hui à venir nous présenter à votre audience.

4128             Je voudrais juste expliquer brièvement le regroupement.

4129             Nous autres, on a 12 affiliations à travers le Québec.  On couvre tout le Québec.  Notre organisme existe depuis 32 ans, et nous avons fait cheminer plusieurs dossiers pour favoriser l'intégration des personnes handicapées visuelles au Québec.

4130             Le mot " amblyope ", souvent, on me demande ce que ça veut dire.  C'est un mot qui a une racine grecque, qui vient de " ambly ", faible, et " ope ", vision.  Alors, c'est pour ceux que ça ne paraît dans les yeux, au niveau des yeux, mais c'est à un autre niveau.

4131             Alors, voilà pour la présentation.

4132             Juste une petite seconde.  Je vais juste vérifier là, j'avais... juste vérifier dans mon ordinateur parce que je ne veux pas m'égarer dans ma partie.  On va le faire de façon alternative.

‑‑‑ Pause

4133             M. DUBOIS : O.K.

4134             Alors, nous, nous ne sommes pas... bien sûr, nous ne sommes pas des professionnels au niveau des médias électroniques et tout, mais sur le plan humain, sur le plan de la déficience visuelle, ça, on connaît.

4135             Alors, sans plus tarder, je vais laisser Florence faire sa première partie.  Merci.

4136             MME PARDO : Bonjour, mesdames et messieurs.  Je vais vous entretenir sur nos besoins en vidéodescription, et, par la suite, monsieur Dubois prendra le relais pour parler du service à la clientèle, du service et du soutien à la clientèle.

4137             Pour la période de licence qui doit débuter en août 2009, nous souhaitons que les télédiffuseurs, par exigence du CRTC, fournissent le quart de leur programmation avec vidéodescription, c'est‑à‑dire 42 heures par semaine, 6 heures par jour.

4138             Cette mesure devrait être appliquée de façon graduelle.  Ce que nous proposons, c'est au début de la deuxième année, 2 heures par jour, au début de la quatrième année, 4 heures par jour, et au début de la sixième année, 6 heures par jour.

4139             Cette mesure devrait s'appliquer à tous les télédiffuseurs de langue anglaise et française et concerne les émissions préenregistrées ainsi que ‑‑ pardonnez mon Braille parce que ça, je sais que c'était très important ‑‑ ah, oui! aux heures de grande écoute parce qu'on n'aimerait pas que ce soit enterré à 2 heures du matin.

4140             Cette augmentation significative des heures de vidéodescription, pour nous, est nécessaire parce que, actuellement, les besoins des téléspectateurs handicapés visuels est pratiquement ignoré, et ce, malgré le fait que nous sommes des citoyens à part entière, que nous payons des taxes, que nous achetons les appareils, nous payons pour les services de câble, et les solutions aux problèmes d'accessibilité sont maintenant disponibles.

4141             Bien sûr, la vidéodescription a un prix.  Sur le site d'AudioVision Canada, on cite une moyenne de 1 600 dollars pour produire la vidéodescription d'une émission d'une heure.  Par contre, ce prix est un pourcentage peu élevé des coûts des émissions elles‑mêmes.

4142             Par exemple, l'émission québécoise " Minuit, le soir ", dans sa première saison coûtait $260 000 environ par épisode de 30 minutes.  Une partie de ce prix peut être assumé par des instances gouvernementales qui financent les producteurs, ainsi que par une contribution des abonnés au câble.

4143             Une autre raison pour augmenter les exigences, c'est que l'histoire nous a clairement démontré que c'est par les exigences du CRTC qu'on voit l'augmentation du service de vidéodescription, c'est‑à‑dire les compagnies semblent avoir une bonne volonté et de comprendre, mais elles attendent les exigences du CRTC pour aller de l'avant.

4144             Il y a aussi un avantage financier pour les compagnies d'ouvrir leur auditoire, d'agrandir leur auditoire, parce que les personnes que nous représentons, nous sommes 600 000, disons des centaines de milliers de personnes handicapées visuelles et on sait qu'avec le vieillissement de la population, notre nombre est en hausse.

4145             Tantôt, j'ai mentionné, pour la vidéodescription, que nous proposions qu'elle soit appliquée aux émissions préenregistrées.

4146             En ce qui a trait aux émissions en direct, ce que nous proposons, pour l'instant, c'est qu'une attention soit portée lors de la période de pré‑production aux besoins des personnes handicapées visuelles.  C'est‑à‑dire que, en fait, c'est un peu un retour à la parole parce que nos membres mentionnent beaucoup qu'autrefois, il ne fallait pas ignorer la température ou c'est qui la personne qui est à l'écran dans un bulletin de nouvelles et qu'il y a tout à fait moyen qu'il y ait une attention portée à ce besoin‑là.

4147             Et le fait d'accorder une importance à l'accès à l'information lors de la pré‑production correspond au principe d'accessibilité universelle qu'on défend.  C'est‑à‑dire qu'au début d'un projet, c'est là qu'on tient compte des besoins de toute la clientèle, et ça peut, par la suite, réduire les efforts à mettre dans l'adaptation des services.

4148             Pour terminer ce volet sur la vidéodescription, nous aimerions que le CRTC encourage et facilite tout projet qui vise à transférer le précédent qui a été créé par The Accessible Channel, un poste qui permet d'avoir la vidéodescription en clair dans toute la programmation.

4149             Maintenant, mon collègue va vous entretenir sur le service à la clientèle, équitable.

4150             M. DUBOIS : Merci.

4151             Pardonnez ma digression, mais lorsque vous écoutez... bien souvent, un bulletin de nouvelles est toujours accompagné d'un bulletin météo, et puis, lorsque vous entendez, bon, voici la météo pour les 24 prochaines heures, et que vous entendez une petite musique presque d'ascenseur là, vous vous ennuyez de l'éloquence de Jocelyne Blouin ou encore des explications claires du professeur Lebrun.

4152             Pour la vidéodescriptive, on disait qu'on connaît le proverbe : La parole est d'argent, mais le silence est d'or.  Et, dans notre cas, c'est l'inverse, c'est la parole qui est d'or.

4153             Alors, voilà.  Pour le service, maintenant, à la clientèle, nous, on demande au CRTC d'obtenir... de faire en sorte qu'on puisse obtenir un service à la clientèle équitable.  En fait, ça signifie que toute la clientèle va recevoir la même information, et ce, de façon à faire des choix éclairés.

4154             Bon!  Donc, c'est primordial que toutes les entreprises sous la juridiction du CRTC puissent fournir à sa clientèle, sur demande, en différents médias substituts, les dépliants, la facturation, que ce soit un gros caractère, en Braille, en texte électronique ou en audio.

4155             On demande aussi à ce que tous les sites web de ces fournisseurs respectent aussi les normes W3C, qui sont les normes en cours pour l'accessibilité du web.

4156             D'ailleurs, au RAAQ, on avait monté un projet, les Ambassadeurs du web, justement pour sensibiliser différentes entreprises.  Il y a plusieurs choses qui existent pour venir en aide aux compagnies comme ça qui veulent leur site web accessible.

4157             On parlait aussi de l'assistance annuaire.  Il y a plusieurs fournisseurs qui offrent les services d'assistance annuaire gratuits, mais c'est différent d'une compagnie à l'autre.  C'est différent aussi, d'une région, je vous dirais, à l'autre. 

4158             Par exemple, on peut... moi, je suis de Drummondville, j'ai accès à l'assistance gratuite, mais dès que je suis ailleurs dans un territoire qui n'est pas couvert par Bell Canada, c'est toute une histoire, ce n'est pas couvert, puis on a souvent des mauvaises expériences quand on fait la demande d'obtenir l'assistance annuaire.

4159             Donc, on aimerait que le CRTC se penche là‑dessus pour, en fait, rendre uniforme l'assistance annuaire gratuite, peu importe le fournisseur ou la région.

4160             Je m'excuse, je fais juste regarder mes notes.

4161             Oui, on disait que la solution doit refléter l'époque que nous vivons.

4162             Excusez‑moi.

‑‑‑ Pause

4163             M. DUBOIS : Ah, oui!  Toujours dans le but d'avoir un service équitable, lorsqu'on fait appel aux services à la clientèle, on devrait être informé qu'il existe un service à la clientèle qui peut recevoir les demandes particulières, non seulement pour les personnes handicapées visuelles, mais pour toute personne handicapée.

4164             Les gens devraient avoir une formation.  Tout l'ensemble du service à la clientèle devrait avoir une formation minimale et être en mesure d'adresser la personne handicapée à la bonne personne ou au bon service à l'intérieur du service à la clientèle.

4165             En fait, on demande aussi qu'il y ait une particularité dans le service à la clientèle pour recevoir toutes ces demandes‑là.

4166             On demandait aussi pour le service à la clientèle d'avoir accessible en différents médias substituts toute l'information.

4167             Ah, oui!  On aimerait... oui, oui, oui.  Ça, vraiment, on aimerait souligner un grand obstacle que toute notre clientèle rencontre, c'est l'inaccessibilité des appareils.

4168             Par exemple, on sait qu'on peut avoir... à travers le SAP, on peut avoir parfois de l'audiodescription sur différentes chaînes quand c'est possible, mais seulement se promener dans les menus là, se déplacer dans les menus, c'est déjà très laborieux.  On doit toujours mémoriser une séquence de quatre fois flèche bas, une flèche droite, un entrer.  Et puis, les télécommandes aujourd'hui, ce n'est pas ça qui manque dans les maisons.  Alors, ça devient presque impossible de tout mémoriser ces télécommandes‑là.

4169             Alors, nous, ce qu'on demanderait au CRTC, c'est que le CRTC puisse faire appel soit à Industrie Canada ou à l'ACNOR, à l'Agence canadienne de normalisation, pour tenter de trouver des solutions pour résoudre ce problème‑là.

4170             De même, les fameuses entreprises de radiodiffusion et de télécommunication, elles‑mêmes ont des plans de développement.  Alors, ce serait peut‑être bon qu'une partie de leur investissement dans le développement consiste à l'adaptation de leurs appareils.

4171             Par exemple, tantôt, j'entendais ce serait bien qu'on puisse avoir des menus avec une synthèse vocale, non seulement affichés, mais aussi en synthèse vocale, ça serait... ça serait vraiment une belle accessibilité.

4172             Alors, voilà, je repasse maintenant la parole à Florence.  Merci.

4173             Mme PARDON:   J'aimerais apporter une précision par rapport à la formation du personnel.  Deux choses doivent se passer.

4174             D'une part, le personnel en général doit être formé sur les besoins des personnes handicapées et ça, de façon récurrente parce que, comme on sait, le personnel change, donc ça ne peut pas être chaque cinq ans.

4175             Mais, d'autre part, il faudrait que toutes les compagnies suivent l'exemple de certaines compagnies qui ont des services d'assistance spécialisés.

4176             Et puis, dans l'information dont on a besoin pour faire les choix éclairés, il y a l'information générale et on a le droit à cette information générale.  Donc, c'est pour ça que la solution d'avoir un petit coin d'une site web, on est moins d'accord avec ça.

4177             Donc, il y a le fait d'avoir l'information générale et aussi l'information particulière.  Par exemple, des fois, il va y avoir certains services particuliers comme la vidéo description et l'assistance annuaire gratuit, site web accessible, et caetera, les documents en média substitut, mais on ne retrouve pas cette information-là.

4178             Donc, cette information particulière devrait être incluse dans les sites web et devrait être incluse aussi dans les canaux dédiés au Service à la clientèle où Vidéotron explique comment on fait Illico et qu'on peut acheter Illico.  Donc, il faut avoir de l'information sur la vidéo description et on suggère aussi les lignes téléphones interactives qui puissent avoir de l'information sur les besoins particuliers.

4179             Alors, ça, c'est des...

4180             LA SECRÉTAIRE:  Excusez-moi; il vous reste une minute.

4181             Mme PARDO:  Une minute?  Eh! bien, c'est parfait parce que je conclus.

4182             Alors, juste avant de conclure, nous aimerions quand même, parce que c'est une grande opportunité aujourd'hui, sans élaborer, mais très brièvement de dire que les services d'urgence et la représentation et l'emploi des personnes handicapées, c'est quelque chose qui a une grande importance pour nous et, à cet égard, je crois que de mettre sur pied des comités consultatifs avec les personnes handicapées, ce serait de bonne augure, à cet égard, mais aussi pour les autres points qu'on a nommés plus haut.

4183             Alors, les propositions que nous vous faisons, nous pensons que ça va assurer... aider à assurer un réel exercice de nos droits, mais nous croyons aussi qu'elles sont parfaitement réalisables parce que les stratégies existent, la technologie existe et il y a même des solutions sur le plan financier.

4184             Et pour nous, l'autonomie des personnes que nous représentons, c'est toute la société canadienne qui va gagner avec ça. 

4185             Alors, merci beaucoup pour cette opportunité parce que ce sujet est de très grande importance pour nous et nos membres. 

4186             Merci.

4187             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Merci beaucoup.  Je demanderais au conseillère Lamarre de commencer les questions.

4188             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:  Merci, monsieur le président.  Bonjour, monsieur Dubois, madame Pardo.  Merci d'être ici aujourd'hui.

4189             Les questions que j'aimerais vous poser portent principalement sur les trois sujets que vous avez abordés : la vidéo description, le service à la clientèle et les modes de consultation dont vous avez parlés dans votre soumission et aussi un peu ce matin.

4190             Alors, on va plonger immédiatement dans le vif du sujet.  Je note, premièrement, que dans votre soumission du 16 juillet, vous proposez qu'on modifie les exigences en matière de quantité de programmation vidéo décrite au moment du renouvellement des licences de radiodiffusion.

4191             Est-ce que je me trompe, mais vous avez changé le quantum entre votre soumission et votre présentation de ce matin?

4192             Dans votre présentation du mois de juillet, vous faisiez état d'une modification pour qu'on accroisse jusqu'à 28 heures d'heures par semaine alors que ce matin vous nous dites 42?

4193             Mme PARDO:  D'accord.  Ce que nous avons fait depuis juillet, c'est poursuivre la consultation et l'analyse du sujet et nous savons... nous avons très bien entendu qu'il fallait présenter des arguments et être collé à la réalité, collé au faisable.

4194             Mais nous avons vu que cette audience-ci, en tout cas, pour nous en ce qui a trait au RAAQ, c'est historique.  Ce n'est pas tout le temps qu'on a l'opportunité de venir présenter à un organisme du Gouvernement nos besoins.  Donc, on a décidé de se concentrer sur les besoins et à ce niveau-là, c'est sûr que, bon, si on obtient quelques heures en moins de ce qu'on a demandé, on pourra vivre avec, mais c'est sûr que moins que les 28 heures que nous avons proposées, ça ne ferait pas l'affaire.

4195             Mais le nombre 42 que vous voyez là, c'est après mûre réflexion on voulait vraiment montrer c'est quoi le besoin, dans le sens que, comme on a mentionné dans les observations initiales, on veut qu'il y ait un réel changement parce que, bon, on parle d'une période de licence de sept ans, mais sept ans peut être 10 ans, peut être 14 ans, donc on n'aimerait pas que d'ici 15 ans que les choses soient encore minces.  Donc, on voulait clairement exprimer c'est quoi les besoins de nos membres.

4196             M. DUBOIS:  Moi, je voudrais juste ajouter, madame Lamarre, que suite à la réunion du Comité de l'information parce qu'au regroupement il y a un comité, après avoir discuté on se disait qu'après trois ans, s'il y avait six heures par jour de vidéo descriptive, ça pourrait toucher tout l'ensemble de la clientèle, en fait, qu'on pourrait avoir de la vidéo description.

4197             Il faut dire aussi que le comité avait mené un sondage, ça fait déjà...

4198             Mme PARDO:  En 2006.

4199             M. DUBOIS:   En 2006 on avait mené un sondage auprès des membres du RAAQ à travers le Québec pour voir en fait quels étaient les besoins, quelles étaient les attentes.

4200             Alors, nous, on a considéré que c'était réaliste de faire cette demande-là.  Alors, c'est ce qui explique pourquoi le quantum a été changé.  Merci.

4201             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:  Et, justement, votre sondage de 2005-2006 auquel vous faites allusion dans votre soumission de juillet, est-ce que vous pourriez le déposer auprès du Conseil ce sondage-là?

4202             Mme PARDO:  Bien sûr.

4203             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Merci beaucoup.  Dans votre soumission de ce matin, quand vous faites référence aux heures de vidéo description et à l'augmentation graduelle jusqu'à six heures d'émissions vidéo décrites, vous précisez *aux heures de grande écoute+.?

4204             Mme PARDO:  Hum-hum!

4205             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Pouvez-vous me dire c'est quoi, pour vous, la définition des heures de grande écoute?

4206             Mme PARDO:   C'est entre 7 h 00 et 10 h 00 du soir.  C'est... ce qu'on aimerait c'est avoir l'information qui est utile à toute la population et il y a des émissions qui sont plus écoutées, qui sont plus d'intérêt et ce serait important qu'on concentre sur le fait que, comme j'ai dit tantôt, que ça ne soit pas, je ne sais pas, moi, quelque chose à 2 h 00 du matin qui est moins écouté, que ce soit des émissions vraiment d'intérêt et qui offrent une variété de types d'émissions aussi.

4207             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Parce que de 7 h 00 à 10 h 00, ça fait trois heures par jour.  Alors, les trois autres heures, réalistement, vous considérez que ça devrait aller où, à ce moment-là?

4208             Mme PARDO:   Bien, une fois qu'une attention est portée aux heures de grande écoute pour qu'on ait accès aux émissions qui intéressent vraiment la population, on peut ajouter des émissions à d'autres plages.

4209             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Donc, ce que vous nous dites au fond, c'est d'accorder la priorité à cette plage horaire-là de grande écoute en premier dans nos exigences ou nos attentes vis-à-vis des radiodiffuseurs ultimement s'il y en a et, après ça, de diriger le restant du quantum dans d'autres émissions prioritaires?

4210             Mme PARDO:   C'est ça.

4211             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Et pourriez-vous me dire qu'est-ce que, vous, vous identifieriez comme émissions prioritaires?  Je vous donne le contexte.

4212             Présentement, la majorité... en fait, pas la majorité, mais les attentes et les exigences du Conseil en matière de vidéo décrite vise les émissions dramatiques, les documentaires et les émissions pour enfants.

4213             Certaines entreprises de programmation et de radiodiffusion nous ont fait valoir qu'ils trouvaient que c'était trop limitatif et qu'il y aurait d'autres types d'émissions qui se prêteraient à la vidéo description.

4214             Vous, qu'est-ce que vous verriez en premier?

4215             Mme PARDO:   En fait, nous, ce qui nous intéresse, c'est une variété de types d'émissions.  Donc, ça peut être des documentaires, des dramatiques, des comédies.  Il peut y avoir une grande variété au niveau du type d'émission.

4216             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Monsieur Dubois, voulez-vous ajouter quelque chose?  Oui?

4217             M. DUBOIS:  Oui.  Je rappelais que lors du Comité d'information, nous autres on avait discuté aussi à propos de l'information.  Même si la vidéo description ce n'est pas quelque chose qui puisse s'appliquer comme, par exemple, raconter une trame dans un film, il y a quand même des choses intéressantes à ce qu'on sache au fur et à mesure que ça défile.

4218             Donc, l'information, ça avait été aussi soulevé, ça.

4219             Mme PARDO:   Si je peux ajouter quelque chose.  Dans le but d'essayer de trouver une solution, ce qu'on a fait c'est qu'on a séparé les émissions pré-enregistrées et les émissions en direct.  Donc, on a un intérêt à toutes ces émissions-là, mais on s'est plus penché comme solution pour la description sonore, pour une attention lors de la pré-production, pour ces émissions-là.

4220             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Et dans votre proposition, vous mentionnez justement que, bon, vous la faites la distinction entre le direct et ce qui est pré-enregistré, ce qui est tout à fait valable, là, évidemment. 

4221             Et, du même souffle, vous demandez à ce que les exigences s'appliquent à toutes les entreprises de radiodiffusion.

4222             Maintenant, est-ce que vous croyez que ce serait peut-être nécessaire ou non de faire des exceptions au cas par cas parce que, justement, il y a des entreprises de radiodiffusion qui sont des entreprises, par exemple, de nouvelles en continu ou qui n'auront pas autant le matériel de programmation qui se prête aussi bien à la vidéo description?

4223             Mme PARDO:   Oui, on a pensé à ça.  Ce qui était très important pour nous, c'est de vraiment faire... d'essayer de résoudre le problème du déséquilibre entre les télédiffuseurs anglais et français parce qu'au niveau francophone il n'y a pas grand-chose.

4224             Nous avons mentionné tous les télédiffuseurs, mais c'est sûr que c'est très complexe.  Il y a une différence entre, je ne sais pas, moi, le canal Météo et Global Television, quelque chose de ce genre, donc, on serait ouvert.

4225             Mais ce qu'on aimerait, c'est que maintenant ce qui se passe c'est que, bon, on peut trouver trois heures chez untel, quatre heures chez l'autre.  On aimerait que ce soit pour commencer au moins, les télédiffuseurs majeurs, mais vraiment dans les deux langues qui offrent cette programmation avec vidéo description, mais il peut y avoir des nuances.

4226             Par exemple;  bon, là, je reviens encore à la différence entre le pré-enregistré et en direct, je peux voir des solutions, par exemple, au niveau du Canal Météo où au cours d'une heure il y a plusieurs... il y a des choses qui reviennent à chaque heure, n'est-ce pas?  Ça peut être la route, les informations régionales, les informations locales. 

4227             Donc, ce serait très simple de porter une attention et qu'il y ait, je ne sais pas, moi, dans une heure de temps au moins un dix minutes ou, au lieu que ce soit, comme disait André, la petite musique puis rien que le visuel, qu'il y ait une information qui est dite.

4228             Donc, c'est juste une question de trouver... de trouver les solutions, en fait, du cas par cas, comme vous dites.

4229             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Et, justement, au niveau de la description auditive de matériel visuel qui est à l'écran, comment est-ce que vous proposeriez qu'on encourage ou qu'on incite les radiodiffuseurs à employer cette manière-là de façon plus répandue parce que je ne sais pas si vous réalisez la difficulté qu'on touche ici, c'est le matériel éditorial, c'est le matériel de créativité des producteurs.

4230             Alors, comment vous proposeriez qu'on approche ça?

4231             Mme PARDO:   Oui, en effet, c'est sûr que c'est toujours un équilibre et je crois que cet équilibre-là est quand même réussi.  La difficulté existe aussi avec les films de vidéo description qui sont déjà faits parce qu'il doit y avoir un équilibre entre, justement, transmettre l'information visuelle et ne pas toucher à l'art et au niveau des émissions d'information, ce serait, comme vous dites, le matériel éditorial.

4232             C'est sûr qu'on n'a pas eu le temps d'élaborer là-dessus et de voir pratico pratique, mais je sais que ce qui peut aider, c'est de se servir de matériel qui est déjà fait de vidéo description parce que c'est quand même une industrie qui fonctionne très bien et qui a une bonne expertise et il se développe une façon... des types d'information qu'on a tendance à retrouver, qu'on a tendance à donner.

4233             Ça peut être, par exemple, la personne qui est à l'écran.  Si c'est le psychologue qui est en train de donner son opinion, le lieu, l'action.  Donc, il peut avoir... on peut recenser un type de matériel qui pourrait faire en sorte que les producteurs puissent prévoir les besoins.

4234             Donc, c'est sûr que, bon, c'est plus complexe que de juste dire 42 heures par semaine.  On rentre dans le qualitatif, mais je pense que ça demande une certaine analyse des besoins pour pouvoir, par la suite, aller au-devant du besoin.

4235             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Avant que je passe à la prochaine question, je vais vérifier avec mon président.

--- Pause

4236             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary, do you want to -- are we on time now to link in with Winnipeg?  Do we know?   So, I think it might be appropriate to take a break now with this panel and link in so that we can utilize the video comfortably.  You need ten minutes? 

4237             I think Commissioner Lamarre needs about ten minutes to finish.  Maybe we can do that and, in that way, we can avoid -- we're going to continue.

4238             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Merci.  Excusez-moi pour l'interruption étant donné qu'on doit connecter avec Winnipeg, vu que ce n'est pas moi qui décide.  On peut continuer, on me dit qu'on a encore un peu de temps pour pouvoir continuer.  Alors, plutôt que de reprendre par la suite.

4239             Alors, pour parler un peu plus précisément du Accessible Channel auquel vous faites allusion dans votre présentation, vous mentionnez que vous croyez que le CRTC devrait encourager une initiative semblable pour que ça développe du côté français.

4240             Alors, outre accorder une licence qui nous serait demandée et prévoir même éventuellement peut-être une distribution obligatoire, comme c'est le cas pour the Accessible Channel, qu'est-ce que vous croyez qu'on pourrait faire de plus pour que l'effet d'entraînement se fasse sentir dans le marché francophone?

4241             Mme PARDO:   Eh! bien, c'est ce que j'avais en tête.  C'est à part au niveau de la sensibilisation des acteurs, des différents acteurs gouvernementaux et privés, je ne peux pas penser à autre chose.  André, est-ce que tu as une réponse à ça?

4242             M. DUBOIS:  Mais, moi, peut-être... madame Lamarre, peut-être que votre question, on pourrait peut-être en discuter avec notre Comité d'information et vous retourner une réponse plus... parce qu'à brûle-pourpoint comme ça, je m'excuse, c'est...

4243             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Oui, oui, c'est parfait.  C'est parfait.  Et pensez-vous que the accessible channel va être distribué obligatoirement autant dans les marchés francophones qu'anglophones, croyez-vous que, ça, en soi, ça va aussi participer à la sensibilisation, là, de l'utilité d'une telle programmation?

4244             Mme PARDO:   Oui, je pense que oui.  Déjà on a... nous avons diffusé de l'information sur the accessible channel à nos membres qui sont en grande majorité francophones et puis ce qui se produit au début, c'est un emballement incroyable puis quand on dit, bon, c'est... l'obligation, c'est au moins quatre heures puis ils ne sont pas obligés d'en faire plus en français par semaine, puis, là, il y a une grande déception par rapport à ça.

4245             Donc, c'est vrai qu'une fois que ça va être en onde, les personnes pourront utiliser ça pour apprendre plus c'est quoi la vidéo description.  Donc, l'existence de the accessible channel, en effet, même au niveau du marché francophone, sert de sensibilisation, mais la barrière de la langue, elle est là.

4246             Donc, c'est... nos membres nous ont vraiment manifesté que ce serait beaucoup plus intéressant s'il y avait quelque chose comme ça en français avec les avantages que ça porte; c'est-à-dire pour l'instant, il n'y a pas de problème avec le SAP et puis tout ça là, pour naviguer dans les menus.

4247             Donc, c'est quelque chose qui est intéressant pour que ce soit développé au niveau francophone.

4248             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Au niveau de votre présentation et même de votre soumission, vous faites référence à un fournisseur producteur de vidéo description, Audiovision Canada.  À votre connaissance, est-ce qu'il y a d'autres fournisseurs qui produisent la vidéo description en français?

4249             Mme PARDO:   L'autre fournisseur qu'on connaît c'est la SETTE, S-E-T-T-E, qui fait déjà de la vidéo description.  Il y a une émission... quelques émissions à Teletoon et puis VRAK-TV et, à ma connaissance, cette compagnie a une expertise dans le sous-titrage, je crois, qu'elle transfère à la vidéo description.  Donc, ça c'est quelque chose qui est en train de grandir.

4250             Et au niveau du CRIM qui est le Centre de recherches en informatique de Montréal, il y a un développement intéressant qui se fait.  Ils travaillent sur un logiciel de reconnaissance d'écran, mais pas le texte comme jaws mais vraiment d'éléments visuels comme l'action, et caetera, ils collaborent avec la SETTE là-dessus pour voir à éventuellement réduire le coût de la vidéo description.

4251             M. DUBOIS:  Il y a aussi en France, à l'Association Valentin Haüy, là où on produit de la vidéo descriptive.

4252             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Pouvez-vous me répéter le nom, monsieur Dubois, s'il vous plaît?

4253             M. DUBOIS:  C'est l'Association Valentin Haüy, H-A-Ü-Y.

4254             Mme PARDO:   Mais le problème avec la vidéo descriptive là-bas, c'est qu'il y a des problèmes de droits de producteur et puis là encore, les personnes sont très intéressées à voir ces films avec vidéo description français, mais, en tout cas, on ne peut pas les avoir au Québec pour l'instant.

4255             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Mais ce qui me rassure, c'est de savoir qu'au moins la technologie, là, vous dites, existe et qu'il y a quelque chose qui se fait dans une autre juridiction francophone, là. 

4256             Je vous remercie pour cette information-là parce que je ne crois pas que ça en est une qu'on avait au dossier.

4257             Au sujet du service et du soutien à la clientèle, j'avais une question à vous poser et très franchement vous y avez tellement bien répondu dans votre présentation que je ne vous ferai pas répéter.  Mais si vous avez quelque chose à ajouter, là, j'ai quand même très bien compris que vous disiez que c'était nécessaire, en ce qui concerne les sites web, que le site web principal, les fournisseurs soient disponibles, tout autant qu'une section dédiée aux produits spécialisés pour les gens que vous représentez.

4258             Mme PARDO:   Hum-hum!

4259             M. DUBOIS:   Oui.

4260             Mme PARDO:   Absolument.  Parce que quand on va sur un site web, on y va comme n'importe quel client.  On a les mêmes besoins en fait.  Ce n'est pas juste des besoins particuliers.

4261             M. DUBOIS:  Quand un site web, quand on sent qu'il y a de l'accessibilité sur un site web, on est... en tant que personne handicapée, on se sent le bienvenu.  On sait qu'il y a quelque chose, là, qui a été préparé à notre intention. 

4262             Ce sont des touches de raccourci, ce sont des textes alternatifs pour expliquer une image qui se trouve sur le site web, ça, c'est quelque chose d'assez intéressant.

4263             Pour l'intégration, c'est quelque chose de fantastique.

4264             Mme PARDO:   C'est ça.  Et je voulais ajouter aussi à la fin de notre présentation, lorsqu'on a dit que c'est la Société canadienne en entier qui a à gagner, ce n'est pas juste de belles paroles en l'air.

4265             C'est que l'accès à l'information, ça peut permettre à quelqu'un de devenir un travailleur autonome, de développer par le web des expertises et puis cette expertise-là non seulement peut aider la personne de pourvoir à ses besoins, mais aussi de contribuer à la communauté. 

4266             Donc, lorsqu'on utilise un site web, que ce soit pour des raisons récréatives ou pour des raisons professionnelles puis, tout à coup, tu as besoin de telle information puis, tout à coup, tu ne l'as pas, c'est très... bon, c'est malheureux.

4267             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Et au niveau du service à la clientèle plus spécifiquement, quand on a à appeler soi-même avec... contacter le fournisseur soi-même pour un problème particulier, quel constat est-ce que vous feriez de la qualité du service que vous obtenez, de manière générale?

4268             Mme PARDO:   Bien, au niveau de la... bon, de la bonne volonté et puis la courtoisie et tout ça, il n'y a pas de problème à ce niveau-là, mais ce qui arrive, c'est que le personnel ne savent pas que les services existent.

4269             Par exemple, on va appeler même un télédiffuseur qui fournit la vidéo description puis on pose des questions, par exemple, à quelle heure, quelle émission... la personne ne sera pas au courant.  Donc, la grande amélioration, ça doit se faire au niveau de l'information et l'assistance que le personnel peut offrir.

4270             C'est pour ça que l'idée d'avoir un personnel spécialisé aussi, c'est très intéressant comme solution.

4271             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Au niveau des consultations entre les fournisseurs de service et les clients et les personnes qui ont des déficiences visuelles, de manière générale, certains membres de l'industrie proposent des groupes de consultation séparés pour traiter des questions de télécommunications, d'une part, et des questions de radiodiffusion, d'autre part, il y a d'autres participants qui, eux, préfèrent l'instauration de groupes consultatifs, au sein desquels le personnel du CRTC serait présent.

4272             Et, finalement, Bell Canada préconise l'établissement de groupe Ad Hoc dont les objectifs et les échéanciers sont clairement établis.

4273             Quelle méthode est-ce que, vous, vous préconiseriez et qui vous sembleraient plus appropriées pour améliorer l'accessibilité aux personnes ayant une déficience visuelle qui est une méthode qui est différente de celle que j'ai énumérée, là? 

4274             Je vous ai juste fait un résumé de ce qu'on a au dossier jusqu'à présent.

4275             Mme PARDO:   Okay.  Pour l'instant, notre réflexion n'est pas allée dans tous ces détails-là.  Ce qu'on préconisait, c'est qu'après cette consultation publique et après les décisions qui seront faites par le CRTC, que la consultation doit être continue.

4276             On a un exemple précis où notre groupement avait collaboré très bien avec la Fédération des caisses Desjardins pour l'accessibilité de leurs guichets automatiques et la Fédération des caisses, c'est la seule institution financière qui offre, pour l'instant, tous ses guichets automatiques avec assistance vocale.

4277             Mais cette collaboration-là, elle se poursuit jusqu'à présent; c'est-à-dire, on est en contact.  À chaque fois qu'il y a des changements à apporter, des nouveautés, ils se tournent vers nous pour qu'on le teste et à chaque fois qu'on pense qu'ils sont rendus bons puis ils connaissent ça très bien, nos besoins, on remarque que, justement, cette consultation continue est nécessaire.

4278             Et quand on parle de radiodiffusion et de télécommunications, l'analyse qu'on a fait, c'est que pour la mise en oeuvre des mesures, c'est quand même complexe et il faut rester collé à la réalité et aux besoins. 

4279             Donc, c'est pour ça qu'on a mentionné l'importance d'un comité consultatif, mais on peut retourner auprès de nos membres pour voir si ça doit se faire, si les sujets doivent être séparés ou bien s'il doit y avoir quelque chose de global.

4280             Mais pour l'instant, je verrais une place pour les deux, hein! parce qu'il y a des choses qui se solutionnent lorsqu'on regarde de façon spécifique, mais en même temps, il y a des enjeux qui sont globaux aussi.  Donc, je ne sais pas, André, si tu as quelque chose à dire à ce sujet?

4281             M. DUBOIS:   Ça mérite réflexion.  Madame Lamarre, pourriez-vous juste ré-expliquer la deuxième, là où le CRTC avait une implication parce que, en fait, moi, je verrais...

4282             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Oui.  C'est qu'il y a certains participants qui préféreraient justement voir l'instauration de groupes consultatifs et au sein de ces groupes-là le CRTC serait représenté.

4283             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Hum-hum!

4284             M. DUBOIS:  Moi, là, je... sans hésiter, je voudrais voir le CRTC là parce que, je pense, en fait, le CRTC représente déjà... c'est un organisme qui représente le bien, je dirais, des citoyens de l'ensemble du pays.  Donc, le CRTC devrait être là, les personnes handicapées devraient être là, bien sûr l'industrie.  Et je pense qu'à trois on devrait... on devrait trouver des solutions, là.

4285             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Et, finalement, j'ai une question qui déborde un petit peu plus... Oui?  J'ai une question qui est d'ordre un petit peu plus administratif.

4286             Vous mentionnez là, et vous expliquez très très bien, là, en quoi consiste votre regroupement et qu'il est formé, là, des regroupements d'associations régionales au Québec.

4287             Est-ce que vous avez des contacts avec des organisations hors Québec qui représentent des personnes francophones, qui ont des déficiences visuelles?

4288             Mme PARDO:   On a... pardon?

4289             M. DUBOIS:   Avec la France, oui.

4290             Mme PARDO:   Non.  Hors du Québec, vous parlez...

4291             M. DUBOIS:  À l'intérieur du Canada?

4292             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   À l'intérieur du Canada, oui, oui.

4293             Mme PARDO:   Vous parlez des groupes un peu comme le CCD puis le Alliance for Blind Canadians.  C'est tout ça, c'est ça?

4294             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Oui, mais qui représentent précisément des personnes francophones?

4295             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Les personnes francophones.

4296             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Oui, hors Québec?

4297             Mme PARDO:   On ne les connaît pas.

4298             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Vous ne les connaissez pas.

4299             Mme PARDO:   Non.

4300             M. DUBOIS:  Malheureusement.

4301             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Et est-ce qu'il y a des gens...

4302             Mme PARDO:   C'est pour ça qu'on parle pour les québécois, mais si on peut aider tous les francophones à travers le Canada, on est heureux de le faire aussi.

4303             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Est-ce qu'il arrive que vous recevez des demandes de renseignements justement, et d'aide de la part de francophones hors Québec?  Est-ce que ça arrive, de mémoire?

4304             Mme PARDO:   Très rarement, mais ça arrive parce que, bon, au regroupement on reçoit toutes sortes d'appels et, en général, lorsqu'on n'a pas l'expertise, on est là pour référer les gens.  On leur explique comment ça fonctionne avec les centres de réadaptation puis l'INCA et tout ça, mais ça n'arrive pas souvent.

4305             M. DUBOIS:  C'est un très bon point que vous soulevez parce que je me dis, là, nous autres, je pense qu'on aurait peut-être un travail à faire aussi en tant que regroupement.

4306             Moi, dans l'industrie dans laquelle je travaille, on a affaire à des gens un peu partout au Canada puis en Amérique du Nord puis les francophones, on est dans les technologies pour les personnes handicapées visuelles, je les connais, mais c'est drôle, je n'ai jamais entendu une organisation, tu sais. 

4307             Je ne peux pas dire le regroupement des personnes francophones du Nouveau-Brunswick ou... il y a quelque chose à faire là.

4308             CONSEILLÈRE LAMARRE:   Et je me permets, pour clore, un commentaire éditorial.  Monsieur Dubois, vous avez bien fait de préciser la définition du mot *amblyope+, mais j'avais déjà trouvé la définition exacte dans un grand dictionnaire terminologique de l'Office de la langue française.

4309             Mais je pense que pour le bénéfice de tous les participants, ça a été apprécié.

4310             Je n'ai plus d'autres questions, monsieur le président.  Merci beaucoup.

4311             M. DUBOIS:  Merci.

4312             Mme PARDO:   Merci.

4313             LE PRÉSIDENT:   Merci.  Est-ce qu'il y a des autres questions du panel?  Non?  Conseiller juridique?

4314             Mme LEHOUX:  Merci.  Je suis Véronique Lehoux, je suis une des avocates du Conseil.  J'ai juste une petite question de procédure.  Vous avez pris deux engagements ce matin, dont, un, de fournir le sondage de 2006 et, le deuxième engagement était de répondre à la question de madame Lamarre, là, qui est la suivante :  Outre accorder une licence qui serait demandée au Conseil avec, possiblement, une distribution obligatoire comme le Accessibility Channel, que pourrait faire le Conseil.

4315             Donc, est-ce que vous vous engagez à répondre à ces... est-ce que c'est possible pour vous de répondre à ces questions-là d'ici vendredi prochain?

4316             M. DUBOIS:  On peut faire une consultation téléphonique, oui.

4317             Mme PARDO:   Qu'entendez-vous par *vendredi prochain+?

4318             Mme LEHOUX:  Le 28.

4319             Mme PARDO:   Le 28, oui.

4320             Mme LEHOUX:  Oui.  Merci.  J'ai fini mes questions, monsieur le président.

4321             LE PRÉSIDENT:  Merci beaucoup.  On prend dix minutes.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1148 / Suspension à 1148

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1158 / Reprise à 1158

4322             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are going to start again.  Please, be seated.

4323             Madam Secretary, if you can introduce the panel.

4324             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with our next participant, Mr. Edwin Ross Eadie who is joining us via videoconference from our Winnipeg office.

4325             Mr. Eadie, can you hear us?

4326             MR. EADIE:  I certainly can.

4327             THE SECRETARY:  Okay.  I will present for you ‑‑

4328             MR. EADIE:  Can you hear me?

4329             THE SECRETARY:  I am Sylvie Bouffard, the Hearing Secretary.

4330             I will present the panel members in order they are seated from left to right:  Elizabeth Duncan, Timothy Denton, Suzanne Lamarre, Leonard Katz, Candice Molnar and Stephen Simpson.

4331             You may begin your 15‑minute presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

4332             MR. EADIE:  Great!  Thank you for allowing me to step in a bit earlier here as I have a job interview this afternoon, I would really hate to miss that.  It is tough being poor, although I have a nice suit today.

4333             You can call me Ross Eadie.  I put my full name just ‑‑ I can't remember why but my name is ‑‑ you can call me Ross.

4334             I brought with me today ‑‑ I wanted to bring the attention of the CRTC the difficulty that people with disabilities have in participating at this regulatory level, trying to advocate for what I would call appropriate services to customers who are paying for the services.

4335             One of the people I invited with me today ‑‑ she won't be speaking but I brought with me a woman by the name of Jane Sayer.  She is with the Resource Centre for Manitobans who are Deaf‑Blind.

4336             When I called her up to find out from her what her perspective was on the issues that we are talking about today and throughout the week, she was unaware that these hearings and these interventions were possible.

4337             I can in no way represent what the needs are for people who are deaf‑blind but I just wanted to point out that it is hard ‑‑ we need to find a way to reach out and allow people to participate more, I think, in the ideas of how to bring solutions to our systems that are covered by the CRTC:  the telephone systems and the broadcasting system.

4338             For me, I think that it has been a very difficult process.  I have tried to intervene in a number of situations and produced some lengthy papers over the years but it is very frustrating not being able to have participated right in Gatineau, for example, for the new ‑‑ I call it the Unaccessible Channel ‑‑ but the Accessibility Channel that was established.  I think it was last year a decision was finally made by Stephen Harper, I think.

4339             I found it very frustrating doing this and having to do all the research to make sure that I understand what is going on, to make sure that I understand decisions that have been made.  I believe that there needs to be a universal design approach to any system of providing culture to us in this country because the special segregated ways of dealing with these things can only achieve a minimal percentage of access.

4340             For example, I heard somebody mention DAISY and the publishing of books.  At best right now, using the special segregated methods with exemptions and so on, the best they can do is tell us that 15‑20 percent of published books are accessible.

4341             We need to do better.  Why can't we get to 90 percent, as we have, let's say, in captioning for people who are deaf in our broadcasting system.  I am not sure of the exact percentages but why can't we achieve that?  We need to be able to do that. 

4342             How can we do that?  We need to hear ideas from Canadians who are not immersed in what I would call segregated services. 

4343             They are wonderful people, the CNIB, the NBRS services.  They have a good will, they want to try to solve problems but what they end up usually doing is they come up with segregated service ideas in how to deal with things because after all they have to make sure that their organizations are viable.  They want to try to make sure their so‑called clients receive a service.

4344             However, we are just immersed ‑‑ we can't achieve universal design if we continue to use that kin